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00:12:41 <zemhill_> oerjan.hm: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
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00:16:23 <Melvar> oerjan: So, the setting/update syntax in jq makes the whole thing look more like a sort of optics rather than arrows.
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00:19:18 <Melvar> Also, the Kleisli arrow is not sufficient anyway because there are also exceptions.
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00:23:52 <Melvar> `` jq -cn '[1,[2,3],4,[[5,6],7]] | (recurse | arrays | .[0] | numbers) |= . + 10'
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00:27:45 <Melvar> The filter on the left of the |= specifies paths, the items at which are updated by piping through the filter on the right.
00:28:53 <Melvar> And apparently the path specification is quite flexible.
00:29:26 <Melvar> `` jq -cn '[1,[2,3],4,[[5,6],7]] | (recurse | arrays) |= {children: .}'
00:29:28 <HackEgo> jq: error (at <unknown>): Cannot index object with number
00:31:06 <oerjan> i need a native english speaker: i'm seeing someone in wikipedia using the word "edition" to refer to particular years of a music festival, and that seems wrong to me. but i cannot think of the proper word to use...
00:31:36 <oerjan> alternatively, a confirmation that this is proper usage
00:32:46 * oerjan tries seaching for synonyms
00:33:16 <Melvar> `` jq -cn '[1,[2,3],4,[[5,6],7]] | ([recurse] | reverse | .[] | arrays) |= {children: .}'
00:33:17 <HackEgo> jq: error (at <unknown>): Invalid path expression near attempt to access element 10 of [[1,[2,3],4,[[5,6],7]],1,[...
00:33:51 <oerjan> (ok in a pinch i'll accept a non-native english speaker too, if they remember the proper word :P)
00:35:54 <oerjan> version is the only general word but even that feels wrong for a festival
00:36:19 <oerjan> hm synonyms for version, maybe
00:41:25 <Melvar> `` jq -cn 'def recurse_rev(f; cond): def r: (f | select(cond) | r), .; r; [1,[2,3],4,[[5,6],7]] | (recurse_rev(.[]?; . != null) | arrays) |= {children: .}'
00:41:27 <HackEgo> {"children":[1,{"children":[2,3]},4,{"children":[{"children":[5,6]},7]}]}
00:42:34 <oerjan> maybe instance leads somewhere...
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00:43:11 <Melvar> oerjan: I’m pretty sure I’ve heard “edition” referring to a festival before.
00:44:09 <oerjan> Melvar: was it said by a native english speaker? because i suspect the paragramph i'm trying to correct was made by an italian.
00:44:27 <oerjan> and it may actually be correct in that language.
00:44:38 <oerjan> (edizione can mean broadcast)
00:44:58 <oerjan> i'm getting closer: occasion _might_ work.
00:46:51 <oerjan> otoh i _do_ find other uses.
00:46:59 * oerjan decides to just leave it.
00:47:10 <oerjan> there was enough other grammar to correct, anyway.
00:57:00 <oerjan> *sigh* this only made me annoyed again, especially when thesaurus.com became dog slow...
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00:59:17 <oerjan> could some of those people who occasionally keep telling me to get a real browser tell me: do either of firefox or gnome have the ability to _completely_ overrule web pages' ability to steal a particular interface shortcut such as left arrow or ctrl-click?
00:59:35 <oerjan> because those are starting to annoy me.
01:00:40 <oerjan> (at least the keys _are_ right next to each other.)
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01:02:26 <oerjan> and by "a particular", i mean that it doesn't require shutting off all javascript features or the like.
01:03:51 * oerjan has obviously entered murphy's law mode again, as usual when he loses patience.
01:04:13 <oerjan> time to take a deep breath and relax.
01:05:00 * oerjan thinks murphy's law is just a facet of the law of attraction that happens when you allow yourself to become angry at things </wrong #esoteric>
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01:08:47 * oerjan goes back to youtube where this all started and clicks the next song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZijylLTdcWk
01:09:23 <zzo38> I would want the ability to wrap the JavaScript DOM with another JavaScript code
01:13:04 <oerjan> yeah i suppose that would give the ability, although not very user-friendly
01:13:43 <oerjan> in some sense you'd want browser virtualization, right?
01:13:54 <zzo38> Yes, something like that
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01:16:58 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages messages-loud messages?
01:17:40 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages? messages
01:21:00 <oerjan> @dt ++++++++[->++++++++<]>+.
01:21:00 <lambdabot> <unknown>.hs: 1: 1:Parse error: ++++++++
01:21:05 <oerjan> @ft ++++++++[->++++++++<]>+.
01:21:05 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl let id faq do bf @ ? .
01:21:12 <oerjan> @do ++++++++[->++++++++<]>+.
01:21:12 <lambdabot> <unknown>.hs: 1: 1:Parse error: ++++++++
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01:44:09 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/tail -n1 \ Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
01:44:35 <oerjan> `` tail -n1 bin/prefixes >wisdom/prefixes
01:44:48 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
01:45:09 <oerjan> `mkx bin/prefixes/\? prefixes
01:45:12 <HackEgo> usage: mk[x] file//contents
01:45:18 <oerjan> `mkx bin/prefixes//\? prefixes
01:45:26 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
01:46:48 <oerjan> there, one less syntax confusion to have to distinguish
01:55:18 <oerjan> hm it's getting warmer tomorrow
01:55:23 <lambdabot> ENVA 302350Z 12010KT 080V140 9999 SCT055 BKN110 10/01 Q1022 RMK WIND 670FT 14012KT
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01:57:13 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
01:57:29 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
01:58:47 <oerjan> @tell int-e you know, it'd be more useful if @help did spelling corrections...
01:59:59 <oerjan> @tell int-e admittedly, that would ruin the challenge.
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02:01:57 <oerjan> :t \p m -> maybe True p m == all p m
02:04:30 <oerjan> @check \f x -> map f x == x
02:05:11 <oerjan> if there just were anyone here to get confused.
02:06:46 <zzo38> Who do you want to confuse?
02:08:12 <oerjan> anyone who needs a flabbergasting
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02:13:18 <oerjan> @check \x y -> x ++ y == y ++ x
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03:24:52 <oerjan> . o O ( ^def codeword ul (WOULD YOU LIKE SOME CANDY?)S )
04:00:13 <oerjan> `addquote <quintopia> let's force all arabs to adopt more reasonable orthography <zzo38> quintopia: No that is not the correct solution <quintopia> zzo38: oh. okay. thanks.
04:01:23 <HackEgo> 1279) <quintopia> let's force all arabs to adopt more reasonable orthography <zzo38> quintopia: No that is not the correct solution <quintopia> zzo38: oh. okay. thanks.
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05:00:48 <zzo38> I wrote a lot more of UTCE specification (including parts of the encoding tables), although it is still far from completed
05:00:58 <zzo38> You can read what I have so far
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06:22:55 <fowl> dat feeling when you fix a bug thats been bothering you for days
06:36:28 <hppavilion[1]> I've tried and retried to get a GCC cross-compiler working so many times that I'm beginning to understand the commands I'm executing
06:52:48 <zzo38> The communist hands are: royal flush, ace-high straight containing all suits, four of a kind and an ace, four aces and a king.
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07:45:37 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: fancy hairstyle
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08:47:30 <gamemanj> *looks at prices of static RAM chips* for some reason I don't think BytePusher will be getting an implementation in hardware for quite a while...
08:49:47 <gamemanj> doing a quick search for a dynamic RAM shows the closest thing is a VG3617801CT (2MiB)... 8 of them would be needed, and: it's a dynamic RAM anyway!
08:55:48 <zzo38> BytePusher hardware would still need some kind of adding because it is using instructions which cannot be aligned.
08:56:27 <gamemanj> And it needs... let me think...
08:57:18 <gamemanj> 3 A Address read clocks (DDR means 1.5 but let's ignore that for now), 3 B Address read clocks, 2 clocks for R/W, 3 more clocks for jump address...
08:57:50 <gamemanj> And this is assuming a simple model of "memory takes 1 clock" (which is reasonable since every cycle does a memory access)
08:58:16 <gamemanj> (well, every... ok, the point is, every single time whatever magical "do stuff" signal happens, a memory access happens)
08:58:50 <gamemanj> Oh, except every 65536 instructions, the CPU has to be disconnected from the memory bus for video and audio hardware...
09:00:02 <gamemanj> To be honest, the only nice thing about BytePusher by the look of this is that the 216-colour palette leaves room for "special signal values" when doing sprites.
09:00:24 <gamemanj> Except, of course, that's if you're writing a program, not if playing around with the idea of building hardware.
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09:04:54 <gamemanj> Because then the 216-colour palette means you need memory for some sort of conversion table (division is hard)
09:05:41 <gamemanj> I don't think BytePusher will be getting a hardware version anytime soon
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09:07:32 <gamemanj> (And whatever hardware it's built with has to be capable of transferring, as a conservative estimate, 45MiB per second.)
09:12:05 <gamemanj> (At least I worked out how on earth to keep the dynamic RAM refreshing if need be. Last I read it was operated in pages, and luckily audio is a consistent set of 256 accesses sprinkled into a frame, so just make the lowest byte of an address the page, and disable output on all but 1 chip but still cause the accesses. Requires the layout of the memory to be x-chips-per-MiB, though.)
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09:15:58 <gamemanj> (Ah. Wikipedia explains it as being divided into rows, and all bits in a row are read at the same time. So, use chips with 256 or lower amount of "rows", and the audio cycles can handle refresh.)
09:16:18 <gamemanj> (Except that also requires that the chips are OK with being refreshed 60 times per second, no more.)
09:17:29 <gamemanj> (..."often 64 ms". Way more than enough time.)
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10:51:06 <int-e> gamemanj: your estimate is a bit off: for each instruction, you need to read 9 bytes; then you need to read and write a byte (random access) for the data, and then another 3 bytes to update the PC... so that's already 14 bytes... the hardware also has to deal with reading the pixels for display, so 65536 * 15 B * 60/s ~ 60MiB/s...
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10:51:59 <int-e> @tell oerjan I think the problem is with people who deliberately misspell commands.
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10:58:37 <fizzie> int-e: I'd like for every @ping misspelling to change the "pong" reply in an analogous way.
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11:59:01 <mroman> I hate incosistent websites.
11:59:38 <gamemanj> So anyway, the next task of the League Of Evil Typesetters: Create a typesetting tool that works inconsistently on websites...
11:59:46 <gamemanj> ...but completely cosistently.
11:59:53 <mroman> also why are window.close events still a thing
12:00:58 <mroman> "Do you want to close this website" "I REALLY WOULD LIKE TO CLOSE THAT WEBSITE BUT SINCE I CAN NOT DO THAT PLEASE LET ME AT LEAST CLOSE MY WINDOW"
12:02:17 <FreeFull> gamemanj: Consistently inconsistent?
12:02:40 <gamemanj> FreeFull: "consistent" "cosistent"
12:03:30 <FreeFull> Except that "cosistent" doesn't seem to be anything other than a misspelling =P
12:04:52 <mroman> no, it's the inversive of cosistent
12:05:01 <mroman> and a cosistent has something to do with cosinus
12:07:55 <gamemanj> so does that mean mroman hates consistent websites, or...
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12:43:45 <int-e> mroman: did you miss the point where we no longer build websites... but web applications? of course you want to display "you've modified your data, did you want to save it?" dialogs.
12:46:26 <gamemanj> int-e: Why not just move data about "live" if it's a "it must stay connected" app,
12:46:35 <gamemanj> int-e: or save the data to local storage...
12:47:09 <gamemanj> Even better, have an in-built revision control system. No need to do a diff, you have the edits being streamed in from your app's frontend...
12:47:37 <gamemanj> View <-> RCS (Storage + RCS functions) <-> Storage
12:48:41 <int-e> because it's much easier to just display a popup and then lose the data
12:49:55 <int-e> To my mind the mistake is completely captured by the term "application" in "web application". You can make improvements from that premise, but you wont end up with anything good.
12:50:11 * int-e hates the versioned web, obviously.
12:51:34 <int-e> (and I say "versioned" because I'm not sure whether we still call it 2.0)
13:05:11 <gamemanj> I like to call it Web math.sin(os.time() / (60 * 60 * 24)) + 1
13:05:20 <gamemanj> hang on, sorry, messed up there
13:05:44 <gamemanj> I like to call it Web 1.9507776867409
13:07:06 <gamemanj> (alternately, if you like to discriminate based on time but not date: math.sin((os.time() / (60 * 60 * 24)) * 6.28318) + 1 )
13:09:38 <FreeFull> gamemanj: I think you meant cos
13:10:04 <gamemanj> it's just a difference in alignment
13:10:17 <gamemanj> and I really didn't care about which values came out
13:10:46 <FreeFull> Ah, I was thinking that os.time() / (60 * 60 * 24) would give a really small value, but that must be just my tiredness
13:11:08 <gamemanj> oh, it's meant to give a really small value at the right time
13:11:53 <gamemanj> the day after the epoch it'll be 1
13:13:27 <gamemanj> use + 2 instead of + at the end if you really think the whole universe is at least web 1.0
13:14:03 <gamemanj> but I doubt using + 3 is anywhere near correct
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13:55:41 <int-e> saw the topic, perhaps
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16:33:56 <\oren\> ok, when did someone invent a kanji form for ぐぐる
16:35:29 <b_jonas> \oren\: people invent kanji for everything
16:36:22 <\oren\> gamemanj: what you're missing here is the verb "guguru" (to google) ewas inventd very recently
16:36:55 <gamemanj> that'll have done a number on the Unicode people
16:37:06 <b_jonas> \oren\: yes, but I think some people think there should be kanji for everything, even for words that are normally always written in kana
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16:45:45 <\oren\> http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q12136872052 oh I forgot to post what I was reading
16:46:57 <\oren\> so yeah some aouthor decided that 繰繰る is a good way to spell it
16:47:22 <\oren\> it doesn't seem to be common however
16:54:24 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 9h 11m 49s ago: ][>:=~+
16:54:40 <boily> @ask hppavilion[1] eh?
16:55:50 <boily> 繰 [JIS] 372B [Uni] 7e70 [部首] 120 [教育] 8 [画数] 19 [音] ソウ [訓] く.る [名] くり [英] winding; reel; spin; turn (pages); look up; refer to
16:56:07 <boily> ↑ it has "look up" and "refer to" in its definitions. makes sense.
16:58:04 <HackEgo> Caesura: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
17:01:44 -!- Caesura has changed nick to Kaynato.
17:01:51 <Kaynato> my irc client renames me automatically, sometimes
17:03:07 <Kaynato> I noticed a tiny segfaulting program in daoyu, recently
17:03:17 <boily> Kaynatello, Cællosura!
17:03:52 <gamemanj> `lua "\x01ACTION falls asleep\x01"
17:03:53 <HackEgo> lua: cannot open "\x01ACTION falls asleep\x01": No such file or directory
17:04:01 * boily is happy to code in unsegfaulting languages
17:04:10 <gamemanj> ``lua -e "\x01ACTION falls asleep\x01"
17:04:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `lua: not found
17:04:14 <Kaynato> it's strange, since it doesn't segfault on my computer
17:04:23 <gamemanj> `` lua -e "print(\"\x01ACTION falls asleep\x01\")"
17:04:25 <Kaynato> I do not know where this is occuring...
17:04:31 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `gdb: not found
17:04:36 <gamemanj> HackEgo really does not want to fall asleep.
17:04:52 <Kaynato> Where can I open valgrind?
17:05:13 <boily> HackEgo is eternal. HackEgo does not sleep. All Hail HackEgo (except when hailing fungot).
17:05:13 <fungot> boily: i know someone who happens to know
17:05:34 <boily> fungot: of course you know. you're our All-Seing Eye.
17:05:35 <fungot> boily: you want to do quotas for memory. akin to fnord you have no fingerprints on a camera? ( i was talking
17:06:00 <gamemanj> Kaynato: well, there is one way... download the binary for dao, hope it runs, then replicate the results locally?
17:06:09 <gamemanj> Kaynato: (Note: Probably not a good idea)
17:06:35 <Kaynato> I've been compiling the same here....
17:07:13 <fizzie> Kaynato: Should that print "001"?
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17:07:55 <fizzie> Then it's probably not the same bitness issue that previous one was.
17:08:05 <fizzie> (Because that's what it does locally for me.)
17:08:10 <Kaynato> Yet it segfaults from here, which is strange
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18:03:17 <HackEgo> The password of the month is supercalifragilisticexpialidociouszU0dIxy1RhtbmYoTJFigBQ (There. Compromise.)
18:08:32 <int-e> `le/rn tribble/99 tribbles on the wall, take one down, pass it around, 117 tribbles on the wall.
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19:00:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46897&oldid=46896 * H3LL * (+0) /* Confusion */
19:01:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46898&oldid=46897 * H3LL * (+1)
19:02:46 <fowl> Tribbles are born pregnant and have an average litter of 10
19:03:31 <myname> so, how do you end up at 117?
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19:06:56 <fizzie> For example, by having -- while the one was being passed around -- two of the wall-tribbles give birth, to litters of sizes 7 and 11, respectively.
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19:08:01 <fizzie> Why not? It doesn't take that long to pass a tribble around, I don't think.
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19:17:39 <fowl> They give birth every hour too iirc
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19:25:09 <fizzie> So you could argue it likely takes something like one and a half minutes to pass one around, if two gave birth during that time.
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19:45:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46899&oldid=46898 * H3LL * (-1) /* Comparison operator */
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20:17:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46900&oldid=46876 * LegionMammal978 * (+21) /* C */
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20:30:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46901&oldid=46899 * H3LL * (+403) /* Example programs */
21:08:52 <HackEgo> The Enrichment Center is required to remind you that you will be baked, and then there will be cake.
21:10:10 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:14:29 <int-e> `` touch wisdom/secret; chmod 000 wisdom/secret
21:15:11 -!- boily has joined.
21:15:18 <int-e> `` ls -la wisdom/secret
21:15:22 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/secret: No such file or directory
21:15:49 <int-e> oh, perhaps mercurial had trouble with that would-be commit
21:17:03 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
21:18:33 <HackEgo> changeset: 7637:62e9db64acb2 \ tag: tip \ user: HackBot \ date: Sun May 01 17:08:36 2016 +0000 \ summary: <int-e> le/rn tribble/99 tribbles on the wall, take one down, pass it around, 117 tribbles on the wall.
21:20:07 <HackEgo> cat: cake: Permission denied
21:20:36 <HackEgo> cat: cake: Permission denied
21:20:54 <boily> what are you guys doing to that poor HackEgo again?
21:20:58 <myname> what the hell is this canary thing about?
21:21:16 <boily> myname: mynamello. it's a canary hth
21:21:33 <int-e> it does canary things
21:21:36 <ais523> myname: as a clue, try deleting it
21:21:45 <ais523> then try deleting it and something else at the same time
21:21:47 <myname> i know the error on revert
21:21:53 <int-e> `` rm canary; list
21:22:30 <fungot> int-e: i can understand a fnord approach for really trivial stuff, who cares. we have just delayed their construction so that their kids can still make off it
21:22:38 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] Phantom_Hoover int-e b_jonas boily a`a`a`a`jo7as a`a`a`a`jo8as a`a`a`a`jo3as a`a`a`a`jo6as a`a`a`a`jo5as a`a`a`a`jo4as a`a`a`a`jo2as a`a`a`a`jo1as a`a`a`a`jonas0 a`a`a`a lambdabot chicken_jonas myname
21:22:42 <int-e> fungot: who cares, hackego's slow...
21:22:42 <fungot> int-e: i don't think they look very like latin x nowadays, too.)
21:23:00 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `bin': Is a directory \ rm: cannot remove `cdescs': Is a directory \ rm: cannot remove `emoticons': Is a directory \ rm: cannot remove `esobible': Is a directory \ rm: cannot remove `etc': Is a directory \ rm: cannot remove `evil': Is a directory \ rm: cannot remove `factor': Is a directory \ rm: cannot remove `good': Is a directo
21:23:07 <HackEgo> ^ \ :-( \ !\.´ \ 71ab5gx8 \ 99 \ 99bb \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ cdescs \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ daoyu.c \ dog \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ Eternity \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hia \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ marsha \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ ReUariBw \ share \ Someth
21:23:14 <ais523> myname: figured it out yet?
21:23:28 <int-e> `` rm canary wisdom/cake
21:24:01 <myname> i don't get what's special about canary
21:24:27 <int-e> HackEgo: you're supposed to say "No output." here...
21:24:30 <HackEgo> rm: remove write-protected regular file `wisdom/cake'?
21:24:41 <int-e> `` rm -f canary wisdom/cake
21:24:59 <HackEgo> The Enrichment Center is required to remind you that you will be baked, and then there will be cake.
21:26:31 <b_jonas> is it some sort of built-in protection to revert any command that deletes everything?
21:26:43 <boily> hppavilion[1]: hppavellon[1]. ????????
21:27:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Orso * New user account
21:28:09 <boily> b_jonas: b_jhellonas. it protects. may be related to SCP-███ hth.
21:29:28 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
21:29:30 <HackEgo> l/L is far too short to be a village in Wales.
21:29:30 <HackEgo> brainf**k/There is no such thing as brainf**k. You may be thinking of brainfuck.
21:29:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46902&oldid=46901 * H3LL * (+0) /* Accessing to the registries */
21:30:00 <boily> it's a stew, usually eaten with injera.
21:31:15 <myname> i don't understand a word
21:31:39 <hppavilion[1]> What kinds of things would Mad Scientific Computing use?
21:35:09 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: Gluten extract!
21:35:18 <int-e> <spoiler>https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot/src/99a9363fd27d9e56c99361e6f780dff8ac18e2f1/multibot_cmds/PRIVMSG/tr_60.cmd?at=default#tr_60.cmd-89</spoiler>
21:38:20 -!- shikhin has changed nick to FireyFly.
21:38:27 <hppavilion[1]> myname: SCIENCE DOES NOT CONCERN ITSELF WITH "WHY"!
21:38:35 -!- zgrep has changed nick to FireFIy.
21:38:50 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: why are you saying that?
21:39:04 <Hoolootwo> I'm like 90% sure that's what science is, just asking why a bunch of times
21:39:21 * gamemanj gets out popcorn and marshmallows
21:39:35 <gamemanj> Anyone want to roast marshmallows on the flames of the flame war?
21:39:35 <hppavilion[1]> Hoolootwo: Science is "what" and "how", but not "why"
21:39:37 <boily> science is "why", engineering is "how", management is "when".
21:39:48 <Hoolootwo> oh I guess I confused why with how
21:39:51 <boily> maple flavour popcorn.
21:39:59 <shachaf> i,i one-dimensional mathematics does not concern itself with "why"
21:40:02 <int-e> Why does the apple fall from the tree?
21:40:03 <gamemanj> boily: Ah, sorry, I only have toffee here.
21:40:38 * gamemanj gives boily the bag of popcorn, and grabs some maple syrup
21:40:42 <boily> int-e: I can build you an apple faller machine.
21:40:46 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to hcwddeh.
21:40:54 <int-e> boily: sounds interesting
21:41:03 * gamemanj then pours the syrup all over the popcorn, so the bag of popcorn is also filled with syrup
21:41:14 -!- hcwddeh has changed nick to shikhin.
21:41:30 <gamemanj> maple(-syrup) flavoured popcorn
21:41:44 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: anyway, science is all about "why"... "why should I spend my time on listening to your ideas rather than theirs?"
21:41:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46903&oldid=46902 * H3LL * (+29)
21:42:39 * gamemanj meanwhile gets a stick, impales an innocent marshmallow onto it, and then puts it into the flames of the debate
21:43:32 <gamemanj> Hmm... probably should've gotten a second marshmallow...
21:43:33 -!- FireFIy has changed nick to zgrep.
21:43:51 * gamemanj takes the marshmallow out of the flames, and waits for it to cool down
21:44:25 <gamemanj> Given how long that was, it'll probably be nice and crispy by now
21:44:45 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:45:15 <gamemanj> Anyway, int-e, you realize that's closer to management? "why should I spend my time on listening to your ideas when I can just fire you?"
21:55:23 <int-e> it hurts but there's some truth to it
21:55:39 <int-e> I guess there's "management" in "time management" too...
21:59:05 -!- jefrite has quit (Max SendQ exceeded).
22:04:17 <fungot> boily: the second is something that can't be expressed with syntax-rules?
22:04:47 <boily> The Nostril that can be expressed through syntax-rules is not the True Nostril.
22:05:48 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in).
22:07:14 <gamemanj> also, seconds can't be expressed via syntax-rules either last I checked
22:07:29 <gamemanj> Depends, do you prefer ice cream or tomatoes?
22:07:39 <gamemanj> ...ok, not that kind of seconds, time :)
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22:18:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Confusion]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46904 * Quintopia * (+314) Created talk page
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22:50:19 <int-e> > sum [sin phi^3 | phi <- [0,0.1..pi]] / 10 -- amazed how close this comes to 4/3
22:57:57 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:58:00 <myname> didn't we have a nostril entry?
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23:10:44 <ais523|netcat> hppavilion[1]: err, what are you trying to do? (also your nick is annoying to type without tab complete)
23:11:02 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:11:22 <hppavilion[1]> ais523|netcat: the wiki says I need grub, so I got the source from the ftp.gnu.org
23:11:55 <ais523|netcat> also I guess there's a case to be used for using UEFI as the bootloader nowadays rather than GRUB (for example, Linux is bootable like this)
23:11:57 <hppavilion[1]> ais523|netcat: And now I'm just following the configure/make/install process that is permanently burned into my corneas
23:13:26 -!- ais523|netcat has quit (Quit: trying out an "upgraded client").
23:14:17 -!- ais523|rlwrap has joined.
23:16:32 * hppavilion[1] waited to send that message until ais523|rlwrap (or ais523 of any variety) came back online
23:17:31 <ais523|rlwrap> things are breaking randomly, including most of my GUI programs (surprisingly, Firefox is holding up just fine, but qwebirc isn't working on it for some reason)
23:18:42 <b_jonas> hppavilion: what? you don't have to build grub. just use a pre-built binary.
23:18:58 <shachaf> ais523|rlwrap: that's why you gotta nixos hth
23:19:18 <myname> people actually use nixos?
23:22:21 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: I'm trying to get grub-mkrescue, and "grub" was the only directory on the gnu ftp that seemed like it might have that.
23:23:36 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: there are grub binaries you can write on a floppy or cd or usb drive or something, and boot from them, and install grub that way
23:23:42 <b_jonas> the windows thing doesn't matter
23:23:59 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: I'm using an emulator. I don't even /have/ a floppy disk drive (or a cd drive, for that matter)
23:24:14 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: And is grub the program that'll get me grub-mkrescue?
23:25:37 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: what? an emulator makes it EASIER to have a floppy drive these days
23:25:59 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: By "floppy disk" you mean an actual floppy disk, correct? The thing made out of matter?
23:25:59 <b_jonas> I don't have a hardware floppy drive in this house (although I could buy one), but I have a floppy drive in emulated machines
23:25:59 <ais523|rlwrap> I own a USB floppy drive, and have used it on occasoin
23:26:24 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: but it doesn't have to be a floppy, it can be a cd or dvd or a pendrive
23:26:31 <myname> i still don't get why you need to compile anything if you want to use it in a vm
23:26:33 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: you just need a different image than for floppy drive
23:27:16 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: for an emulated machine, you don't need an actual hardware floppy disk. to boot a hardware machine (not en emulated one), you'd use a real floppy disk or a real cd or dvd
23:27:20 <hppavilion[1]> myname: According to the os dev wiki (wiki.osdev.org), I need grub-mkrescue to boot the kernel (or maybe to make it bootable, not sure which, haven't gotten that far yet)
23:27:39 <myname> the only reason to compile grub on windows is to actually use grub for booting windows
23:27:44 <myname> which i assume you won't
23:27:46 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Yes, for "Building a bootable cdrom image"
23:27:54 <hppavilion[1]> myname: So is grub not the thing with grub-mkrescue?
23:28:00 <ais523|rlwrap> myname: GRUB doesn't boot Windows, it chain-loads it
23:28:13 <myname> grub is a thung that lets you boot oses first of all
23:28:40 <myname> but it still doesn't make any sense to build grub on windows instead of loading a binary
23:29:02 <ais523|rlwrap> myname: I assume that GRUB binaries are OS-agnostic?
23:29:03 <myname> that may be because you can't linux
23:29:20 <myname> ais523|rlwrap: that's the point
23:29:52 <myname> there are os-agnostic binaries to download and he just compiles stuff on a windows machine
23:30:06 <b_jonas> ais523|rlwrap: there's the grub you boot from bios or stuff, but there are also versions of grub you boot from an operating system, like one you boot from linux and one you boot from dos
23:30:44 <myname> well yeah, but then again: there are binaries for grib4dos
23:30:46 <b_jonas> ais523|rlwrap: the latter kind are useful for installers that run under an operating system, because they're used to install the first kind of grub to your machine without having to reboot to run the first kind of grub
23:30:56 <b_jonas> ais523|rlwrap: but if you're installing grub by hand, then I recommend the former
23:31:24 <b_jonas> (The grub running from dos is also useful because it can actually boot an operating system. The grub under linux doesn't do that.)
23:31:31 <ais523|rlwrap> what are the former and latter? I can't find it in scrollback
23:31:47 <ais523|rlwrap> (mostly because I can't easily find anything in scrollback with this client)
23:31:57 <b_jonas> ais523|rlwrap: former is the grub you boot from bios, the latter is grub running under an operating system as a process
23:33:00 <b_jonas> ais523|rlwrap: linux installers often run grub on linux
23:33:10 <b_jonas> ais523|rlwrap: that grub can't boot anything, but it can install grub
23:33:22 <b_jonas> (well, it can usually install grub. there are ways it can go wrong.)
23:33:55 <ais523|rlwrap> I know that GRUB's installer can run on Linux, but normally I consider the installer to be separate from the program itself
23:34:08 <b_jonas> ais523|rlwrap: it's basically the same program, with some parts replaced
23:34:37 <b_jonas> ais523|rlwrap: and there's a grub running under dos which can actually boot operating systems, but that's easier because you know DOS
23:35:14 <ais523|rlwrap> well GRUB running under UEFI can boot OSes too, and that's actually a common configuration
23:35:24 <ais523|rlwrap> but UEFI is somewhere between an OS and a BIOS in terms of functionality
23:35:34 <b_jonas> ais523|rlwrap: yep, the grub under DOS is a strange eso-beast
23:35:42 <b_jonas> I don't recommend actually using it
23:35:47 <b_jonas> to boot a linux from dos, I recommend loadlin
23:36:12 <b_jonas> either that, or just reboot from dos into bios
23:36:16 <ais523|rlwrap> strange eso-beasts are the sort of thing we love here though
23:36:25 <b_jonas> ais523|rlwrap: yes, I know
23:36:41 <ais523|rlwrap> I've been looking into EFI a bunch, been considering writing my own rEFIt-alike
23:36:51 <b_jonas> (like termbot, which runs dos in irc)
23:37:16 <ais523|rlwrap> in particular, there's an issue under Linux atm where the recommended API for setting Secure Boot variables is capable of creating new ones
23:37:27 <ais523|rlwrap> but not changing the value of existing ones, even if you have permission to do so
23:37:42 <ais523|rlwrap> I'm hoping that the current Ubuntu upgrade will fix that
23:39:46 <fizzie> `forth hex bl a + emit
23:39:49 <fizzie> That's allegedly a good idea, because "blat" (bl a +) is mnemonical for *.
23:40:31 <ais523|rlwrap> `echo this is a test of what HackEgo's invisible characters look like
23:40:32 <HackEgo> this is a test of what HackEgo's invisible characters look like
23:41:29 <ais523|rlwrap> right, but I thought cat -v didn't understand Unicode
23:41:41 <ais523|rlwrap> in which case it wouldn't know they were meant to be invisible and thus would visify them
23:42:24 <fizzie> ais523|rlwrap: There's no invisible characters for ^[a-z].
23:42:35 <fizzie> Try starting with, say, >.
23:43:25 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
23:43:33 <fizzie> Well, it's not perfect. :)
23:43:57 <boily> `le/rn wat/ኢትዮጵያ ውስጥ የሚሰራ የምግብ አይነት ሲሆን፣ የሚሰራውም ከጤፍ ነው።
23:44:08 <b_jonas> hmm, did someone mention yolo? maybe one day I should bring termbot here. only I should change its invocation character to something different.
23:44:23 <myname> so, if we build a two-step quine for lambdabot and hackego we might botspam?
23:44:27 * boily hates his latex guts. let's see how I can make that one work...
23:44:32 <b_jonas> because backtick clashes with hackego
23:44:59 <boily> b_jonas: bring in your bot for great good!
23:45:00 <fizzie> myname: lambdabot's bot-loop prevention is more robust, I think.
23:45:08 <boily> b_jonas: please note that ~ is mine hth
23:45:20 <lambdabot> where <key>. Return element associated with key
23:45:25 <b_jonas> what do you think I should use for the invocation character? right square bracket maybe, because I used that for evalj?
23:45:26 <hppavilion[1]> boily: IMHO, if LaTeX makes it difficult to print a character, it's pretty shitty system.
23:45:37 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
23:45:47 <b_jonas> (because in some ascii-like character sets yen sign is in the palce of backtick)
23:45:49 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
23:45:57 <lambdabot> list [module|command]. Show commands for [module] or the module providing [command].
23:46:05 <lambdabot> where provides: where url what where+
23:46:24 <b_jonas> but if I bring termbot here, then you'll be very angry at me
23:46:32 <b_jonas> so it's really a yolo thing
23:47:08 <ais523|rlwrap> @where+ ais523test `indirecho PRIVMSG #esoteric :@where+ ais523test `echo lambdabot: @where ais523test
23:47:14 <fizzie> With all the bots, there should probably be a bot allocating prefixes.
23:47:16 <lambdabot> `indirecho PRIVMSG #esoteric :@where+ ais523test `echo lambdabot: @where ais523test
23:47:18 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: indirecho: not found
23:47:35 <b_jonas> fizzie: no no, it should be a distributed protocol with no central bot
23:47:53 <ais523|rlwrap> `mk/x bin/PRIVMSG #esoteric :`mkx bin/indirecho echo "$@"
23:47:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/mk/x: No such file or directory
23:48:00 <ais523|rlwrap> `mkx bin/PRIVMSG #esoteric :`mkx bin/indirecho echo "$@"
23:48:02 <HackEgo> usage: mk[x] file//contents
23:48:02 <boily> hppavilion[1]: some people switched from LaTeX to one of the newer macro systems with full Unicode support out-of-the-hbox, but I stick with the one I know.
23:48:02 <b_jonas> fizzie: only a meta-channel where the bots argue with each other about the prefixes
23:48:08 -!- tromp_ has joined.
23:48:09 <boily> hppavilion[1]: sentimental attachment and all that.
23:49:06 <lambdabot> `indirecho PRIVMSG #esoteric :@where+ ais523test `echo lambdabot: @where ais523test
23:49:07 <HackEgo> PRIVMSG #esoteric :@where+ ais523test `echo lambdabot: @where ais523test
23:49:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: echo(echo(echo(echo))): not found
23:49:33 <ais523|rlwrap> wow, this is confusing, I'm dealing with two levels of escaping at once
23:49:58 <ais523|rlwrap> @where+ ais523test `indirecho lambdabot: @where ais523test
23:50:04 <lambdabot> `indirecho lambdabot: @where ais523test
23:50:06 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where ais523test
23:50:07 <lambdabot> `indirecho lambdabot: @where ais523test
23:50:08 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @where ais523test
23:50:08 <lambdabot> `indirecho lambdabot: @where ais523test
23:50:08 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +q *!*@162.248.166.242.
23:50:31 <fizzie> Tht would've been simpler.
23:50:33 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -q *!*@162.248.166.242.
23:50:38 <b_jonas> as for termbot, I should add a simple wrapper script to it that compiles and runs a C program
23:50:56 <b_jonas> as in, a program you type as an argument
23:51:22 <ais523|rlwrap> also I thought lambdabot had anti-botloop protection which caused it to temporarily part (quit?) if it thought it was in a botloop
23:51:46 <b_jonas> the problme is that dos has a really short limit on command line length
23:52:40 <b_jonas> you don't need bot loops for termbot
23:52:48 <b_jonas> termbot is noisy all alone
23:53:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: palpatine: not found
23:53:05 <b_jonas> like, you can type it a six character long command to make it emit pages of junk
23:53:28 <fizzie> ais523|rlwrap: They've been broken for a while, I think.
23:53:45 <fizzie> ais523|rlwrap: Gregor's been equally absent, and glogbot (or whatever the name was) isn't here.
23:54:33 <fizzie> Also I think you're right, and it did have a "part if in a loop" heuristic, but it seems to take at least 5 repetitions to activate.
23:54:36 -!- evalj has joined.
23:56:45 <fizzie> The tunes.org logs are working, but they don't have stalker mode.
23:57:25 <ais523|rlwrap> view-source:http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/16.05.01 seems to work
23:57:39 <ais523|rlwrap> without the view-source: Firefox thinks it's a video for some reason
00:00:36 <fizzie> file(1) says "data". Must be all them control characters or something.
00:01:01 <fizzie> It's properly "Content-Type: text/plain" and all.
00:04:06 <ais523|rlwrap> well, it's not like GRUB is required to make most OSes work
00:04:20 <ais523|rlwrap> I think only Hurd has it as a "native" bootloader, and maybe some of the BSDs?
00:05:03 <b_jonas> ais523|rlwrap: I think openbsd has its own bootloader, it doesn't require grub
00:05:20 <myname> no os requires grub in particular
00:05:21 <b_jonas> I don't know about other bsds
00:06:19 <b_jonas> ais523|rlwrap: a bsd with grub as its default boot loader sounds like it would be anachronistic to me, but it's certainly possible with some of these fancy new bsd-based thingies
00:06:32 <ais523|rlwrap> and that GRUB was originally written for it but ended up branching out
00:06:38 <pikhq> IIRC recent syslinux can also do multiboot loading, so it should work for Hurd.
00:07:04 <b_jonas> ais523|rlwrap: really? dunno
00:07:29 <pikhq> Apparently FreeBSD and NetBSD kernels are multiboot capable.
00:07:41 <ais523|rlwrap> I know some people /wanted/ it to become a standard, but I don't think it actually did
00:07:45 <pikhq> The *incentive* for it being in syslinux though, is Xen.
00:07:52 <pikhq> Xen can only be booted using multiboot.
00:10:12 <b_jonas> doesn't xen have its own bootloader or something?
00:10:35 <ais523|rlwrap> UEFI is arguably a bootloader standard (among the other things it does)
00:10:51 <ais523|rlwrap> and as Windows, Linux and OS X support it nowadays, that makes it quite a widely supported standard
00:12:38 <b_jonas> ais523|rlwrap: yeah, and before that, the pc bios boot thing from cdroms (and dvds) is also sort of a bootloader standard, only simpler
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00:28:03 <lambdabot> int-e said 13h 36m 4s ago: I think the problem is with people who deliberately misspell commands.
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00:55:22 <termbot> info: guest machine now booting
00:55:26 <termbot> -Termbot connects you to an emulated machine you can fully control from irc. Be bold in experimenting, anything you do can be reverted.
00:55:26 <termbot> -Use a line with right square bracket prefix in the #sandbot channel to give commands, normally just text that is entered on the terminal. Using backtick in the line allows for some escapes and commands.
00:55:26 <termbot> -Special characters: `q = backtick, `o = eof (^Z), `r = enter, `t = tab, `b = backspace, `i = interrupt (^C), `e = escape, `x1f = any byte by hex code.
00:55:31 <termbot> -Special commands: `h = suppress automatic return at end of this line, `.d = turn power off, `.ry = off and revert disk to original.
00:55:34 <b_jonas> I'm so going to be kicked out for this
00:55:35 <termbot> -The machine currently has DOS 6.22 installed, you can use the EDLIN editor, the BCC c compiler and the TPC pascal compiler.
00:55:37 <termbot> -Use the SDIR or VDIR commands to list directories.
00:56:39 <izabera> is that a verbose version of ed?
00:56:43 <b_jonas> ]#include <stdio.h>`rint main(){printf("hello, world\n");return 0;}`r`o
00:56:43 <termbot> - 2:*int main(){printf("hello, world\n");return 0;}
00:56:49 <b_jonas> izabera: yes, with much fewer commands
00:56:53 <termbot> -Copy [startline],[endline],toline[,times]C
00:56:53 <termbot> -Delete [startline][,endline]D
00:56:55 <termbot> -List [startline][,endline]L
00:56:55 <termbot> -Move [startline],[endline],tolineM
00:56:56 <termbot> -Page [startline][,endline]P
00:56:56 <termbot> -Quit (throw away changes) Q
00:56:59 <termbot> -Replace [startline][,endline][?]R[oldtext][CTRL+Znewtext]
00:57:02 <termbot> -Search [startline][,endline][?]Stext
00:57:05 <termbot> -Transfer [toline]T[drive:][path]filename
00:57:12 <shachaf> termbot: you're a bit loud tdnh
00:57:32 <termbot> -Borland C++ Version 3.1 Copyright (c) 1992 Borland International
00:57:32 <termbot> -Error: Could not find file 'hello.c'
00:57:32 <termbot> - Available memory 4133724
00:57:49 <termbot> -Borland C++ Version 3.1 Copyright (c) 1992 Borland International
00:57:49 <termbot> -Turbo Link Version 5.1 Copyright (c) 1992 Borland International
00:57:49 <termbot> - Available memory 4084568
00:58:24 <ais523> termbot could do with some sort of linebreak protection
00:58:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wdir: not found
00:58:34 <termbot> -AMBRUS <D> BC <D> DATA <D> DOS <D>
00:58:34 <termbot> -JATEK <D> NC <D> NU <D> PATH <D>
00:58:34 <termbot> -TEMP <D> TP <D> WINDOWS <D> autoexec.bak 1K
00:58:34 <termbot> -autoexec.bat 1K command.com 54K config.bak 1K config.sys 1K
00:58:34 <termbot> -hi.c 1K hi.exe 7K hi.obj 1K io.sys 40K
00:58:34 <termbot> -msdos.sys 38K treeinfo.ncd 1K
00:58:44 <b_jonas> ] edlin c:\path\serial\help.txt
00:58:44 <termbot> + edlin c:\path\serial\help.txt
00:58:45 <evalj> b_jonas: |spelling error
00:58:45 <evalj> b_jonas: | edlin c:\path\serial\help.txt
00:59:07 -!- evalj has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:59:16 <termbot> - 6:*Use the SDIR or VDIR commands to list directories.
01:00:06 <b_jonas> I think I messed up that edit
01:00:12 <b_jonas> I'm in append mode or something
01:00:32 <b_jonas> 6 doesn't print a line, it edits that line
01:00:46 <b_jonas> ]edlin c:\path\serial\help.txt
01:00:47 <termbot> +edlin c:\path\serial\help.txt
01:00:56 <termbot> - 6:*Use the SDIR or VDIR commands to list directories.
01:01:08 <termbot> - 6:*Use the SDIR or WDIR commands to list directories.
01:01:20 <int-e> echoing the commands is a bit much
01:01:28 <termbot> -AMBRUS <D> BC <D> DATA <D> DOS <D>
01:01:28 <termbot> -JATEK <D> NC <D> NU <D> PATH <D>
01:01:28 <termbot> -TEMP <D> TP <D> WINDOWS <D> autoexec.bak 1K
01:01:28 <termbot> -autoexec.bat 1K command.com 54K config.bak 1K config.sys 1K
01:01:29 <termbot> -hi.c 1K hi.exe 7K hi.obj 1K io.sys 40K
01:01:29 <termbot> -msdos.sys 38K treeinfo.ncd 1K
01:01:40 <b_jonas> int-e: that's why this normally runs in a separate channel
01:01:48 <b_jonas> int-e: #esoteric-blah usually
01:02:39 <b_jonas> I should make that fix to help.txt permanent later
01:04:05 <int-e> meh all I can think of is deltree and format
01:04:06 <b_jonas> go on, write C or C++ (for the latter, the extension is CPP). this is nice ancient C with 16 bit integers, no offsetof, and the C++ is even worse
01:04:44 <b_jonas> int-e: you can do those too, ]`.ry reverts the disk, although currently it also reverts this fix to help.txt
01:05:01 <b_jonas> int-e: but it might be better if you just wrote a c program
01:05:16 <b_jonas> or a pascal program if you prefer
01:05:20 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:06:01 <b_jonas> int-e: there is a proper assembler installed, not only debug
01:06:25 <int-e> damn, what was the command to actually execute the stuff
01:06:43 <shachaf> what's the command to execute the bot twh
01:08:04 <int-e> okay, not really unexpected.
01:09:38 <b_jonas> anyway, TASM should work to command-line assemble an assembly file, and also BCC and TPC both have inline assembly (although you might not know the calling conventions of what registers you have to save)
01:11:41 <int-e> it's busy printing stuff to the screen buffer if my memory didn't fail me
01:12:16 <b_jonas> int-e: too bad you can't really see the screen buffer
01:12:31 <b_jonas> the vga cable isn't connected to anything
01:12:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46905&oldid=46903 * H3LL * (-1) /* Simple cycle */
01:13:12 <int-e> so where's the reboot special command...
01:13:15 <boily> can you connect the VGA cable to this chännel?
01:13:34 <int-e> boily: hold still while I fetch the super glue...
01:14:10 <b_jonas> int-e: `.d will turn the machine off, then the next input will turn it on
01:14:31 <termbot> info: guest machine now booting
01:14:36 <b_jonas> int-e: there's also a secret `.b command for reboot
01:14:56 <boily> int-e: I'm not sure I want to hold still when super glue's involved hth
01:15:24 <termbot> -Invalid drive specification
01:15:28 <int-e> boily: so you are smart
01:15:39 <termbot> -Not ready reading drive A
01:15:41 <boily> int-e: not smart, just sane ^^
01:15:47 <termbot> -Not ready reading drive A
01:15:50 <termbot> -Current drive is no longer valid>
01:15:56 <termbot> -Not ready reading drive A
01:16:08 <termbot> -Not ready reading drive A
01:16:21 <termbot> -Current drive is no longer valid>C:
01:17:15 -!- ais523 has joined.
01:17:55 <termbot> -Í ÿ^@îþ^]ðO^C^Z^F^C^Z^F^W^C^Z^FA^E^C^C^C^@^Bÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿý^EN^AÚ^J
01:17:55 <termbot> +^T^@^X^@¶^Kÿÿÿÿ^@^@^@^@^F^V^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@Í!Ë^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@ ^@^@^@^@^@ ^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^Mhello world^M\SERIAL.NCC^M=0 USEHIGH=ON USEHMA=ON^MHIGH=ON USEHMA=ON^M^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@¸@ Í!îGa^C^_ÃH^R±^DÆ÷^J
01:17:55 <termbot> +ÐÓHÚ+Ð4^@¥^K^@ÛÒÓà^CðÚÇ^V¶^A^VÀ^Vø¬Ð^@^@NÈFÂ
01:17:56 <termbot> -Program terminated normally
01:21:44 <termbot> -Invalid drive specification
01:23:52 <b_jonas> int-e: you can write actual assembly code with normal source files and assemble it with tasm, or inline assembly in bcc. Calling convention to C is all stack for normal functions (_cdecl) or first three parameters in registers (AX, DX, BX) for _fastcall functions. I think functions must preserve SI, DI, but can trash AX, CX, DX, BX, and arithmetic flags. I dunno about segment registers.
01:24:32 <int-e> But if I wanted to do that I'd use nasm and dosbox :P
01:25:02 <int-e> (or dosemu if I'd feel old-fashioned)
01:25:18 <b_jonas> int-e, boily: I think it's stopped at the dual-floppy emulation prompt that asks you to insert the floppy that's supposed to be in drive B to your single floppy drive then press a key.
01:25:44 <b_jonas> Probably that prompt doesn't work so you have to reboot.
01:25:52 <b_jonas> Lots of things don't work in termbot.
01:25:55 <termbot> info: guest machine now booting
01:26:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ver: not found
01:26:54 <b_jonas> yeah, the help text told you that's the version installed
01:27:09 <b_jonas> (the help text the "help" command prints)
01:27:09 <termbot> -Memory Type Total = Used + Free
01:27:09 <termbot> ----------------- ------- ------- -------
01:27:09 <termbot> -Conventional 640K 24K 616K
01:27:11 <termbot> -Extended (XMS) 64,377K 16,305K 48,072K
01:27:11 <termbot> ----------------- ------- ------- -------
01:27:12 <termbot> -Total memory 65,536K 16,807K 48,729K
01:27:13 <termbot> -Total under 1 MB 775K 117K 657K
01:27:15 <termbot> -Largest executable program size 616K (630,624 bytes)
01:27:17 <termbot> -Largest free upper memory block 22K (22,032 bytes)
01:27:19 <termbot> -MS-DOS is resident in the high memory area.
01:28:32 <b_jonas> dos has a syscall that returns the amount of extended memory in kilobytes, so it can't handle more than 64 megabytes of extended or won't tell about it.
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01:35:04 <int-e> AX = number of contiguous KB starting at absolute address 100000h ... yeah a bit hard to express more than 64MB with that.
01:35:31 <ais523> you could return the rest in the top half of EAX, which would be visible to a DOS extender
01:36:28 <termbot> -Program terminated normally
01:36:41 <int-e> oh, character in dl, but that syscall would work
01:37:42 <b_jonas> Hmm, maybe for extra yolo I should've done this when no channel operators are present.
01:38:01 <ais523> I don't think anyone's seriously complained yet? just made snide comments
01:38:10 <ais523> also I wasn't exactly paying attention
01:38:21 <ais523> good thing you didn't do it while I was connected via rlwrap :-P
01:38:23 <b_jonas> ais523: not yet, but nobody has started to wdir/s yet
01:38:36 <int-e> I think I tried mem /d before
01:38:44 <ais523> if someone does a very spammy command then either the bot or the person who triggered it to spam needs to be kicked
01:38:47 <ais523> it's not obvious which
01:38:56 <int-e> (which probably isn't too bad anyway)
01:43:47 <b_jonas> the bot doesn't currently give you a way to skip spam. once the machine wrote it to the buffer, and it can write quite fast, it will probably appear in irc in a slow rate and you can't easily stop it.
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01:44:30 <b_jonas> there was supposed to be a `.s command to flush the buffer, but I never implemented that
01:44:36 <oerjan> <ais523> I don't think anyone's seriously complained yet? just made snide comments <-- well snide kickings are also tempting hth
01:46:09 <b_jonas> go on people, write C programs
01:47:18 <termbot> -Termbot connects you to an emulated machine you can fully control from irc. Be bold in experimenting, anything you do can be reverted.
01:47:18 <termbot> -Use a line with right square bracket prefix in the #sandbot channel to give commands, normally just text that is entered on the terminal. Using backtick in the line allows for some escapes and commands.
01:47:18 <termbot> -Special characters: `q = backtick, `o = eof (^Z), `r = enter, `t = tab, `b = backspace, `i = interrupt (^C), `e = escape, `x1f = any byte by hex code.
01:47:23 <termbot> -Special commands: `h = suppress automatic return at end of this line, `.d = turn power off, `.ry = off and revert disk to original.
01:47:27 <termbot> -The machine currently has DOS 6.22 installed, you can use the EDLIN editor, the BCC c compiler and the TPC pascal compiler.
01:47:29 <termbot> -Use the SDIR or WDIR commands to list directories.
01:48:12 <oerjan> ]begin print("Hello, world!"); end.
01:48:12 <termbot> +begin print("Hello, world!"); end.
01:48:26 <b_jonas> oerjan: it's writeln or write, not print
01:49:00 <b_jonas> now you're out of insert mode to ed mode
01:49:12 <oerjan> if i only had the slightest idea
01:49:54 <shachaf> oerjan: was i insufficiently snide
01:49:58 <oerjan> ok i remember pascal even worse than i thought. and never learned edlin in the first place.
01:50:32 <b_jonas> oerjan: you were close, the rest other than writeln was fine
01:50:36 <b_jonas> oerjan: oh wait, it iwasn't
01:50:42 <b_jonas> you need single quotes for a string literal
01:51:12 <oerjan> ruined by C and haskell
01:51:12 <b_jonas> so begin writeln('Hello, world!'); end.
01:51:48 <oerjan> ]begin writeln('Hello, world!'); end.
01:51:48 <termbot> +begin writeln('Hello, world!'); end.
01:52:15 <termbot> -Copy [startline],[endline],toline[,times]C
01:52:15 <termbot> -Delete [startline][,endline]D
01:52:16 <termbot> -List [startline][,endline]L
01:52:16 <termbot> -Move [startline],[endline],tolineM
01:52:17 <termbot> -Page [startline][,endline]P
01:52:17 <termbot> -Quit (throw away changes) Q
01:52:19 <b_jonas> oerjan: E to save the file and exit
01:52:19 <termbot> -Replace [startline][,endline][?]R[oldtext][CTRL+Znewtext]
01:52:22 <termbot> -Search [startline][,endline][?]Stext
01:52:25 <termbot> -Transfer [toline]T[drive:][path]filename
01:52:47 <termbot> -Turbo Pascal Version 7.0 Copyright (c) 1983,92 Borland International
01:52:47 <termbot> -HELLO.PAS(1)^MHELLO.PAS(1)^MHELLO.PAS(1)^MHELLO.PAS(1)
01:52:47 <termbot> -1 lines, 2016 bytes code, 670 bytes data.
01:53:41 <b_jonas> great, though mind you, a hello.exe that prints that message could be already on the image rather than compiled by you now, so you'd better edit it to do something more unique
01:54:34 <b_jonas> there's no hello on the image as far as I know
01:54:41 <b_jonas> except the hi.c I wrote earlier
01:55:26 <b_jonas> ]edlin hello.pas`r1rworld`o#esoteric`r`o1p
01:55:26 <termbot> - 1:*begin writeln('Hello, #esoteric!'); end.
01:55:39 <termbot> - 1:*begin writeln('Hello, #esoteric!'); end.
01:56:00 <termbot> -Turbo Pascal Version 7.0 Copyright (c) 1983,92 Borland International
01:56:00 <termbot> -HELLO.PAS(1)^MHELLO.PAS(1)^MHELLO.PAS(1)^MHELLO.PAS(1)
01:56:00 <termbot> -1 lines, 2032 bytes code, 670 bytes data.
02:03:28 <b_jonas> I'll have to try this again later when there are fewer mods in
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02:19:27 <oerjan> `` ls -l wisdom/password
02:19:35 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 107 Apr 24 17:05 wisdom/password
02:19:41 <HackEgo> The password of the month is supercalifragilisticexpialidociouszU0dIxy1RhtbmYoTJFigBQ (There. Compromise.)
02:19:52 <shachaf> `` hg log -l 1 wisdom/password
02:19:59 <HackEgo> changeset: 7526:4f298d01c68c \ user: HackBot \ date: Sun Apr 24 17:05:01 2016 +0000 \ summary: <gamemanj> learn The password of the month is supercalifragilisticexpialidociouszU0dIxy1RhtbmYoTJFigBQ (There. Compromise.)
02:20:13 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is kOMMlIEBERmAIuNDmACHE
02:20:18 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is kOMMlIEBERmAIuNDmACHE
02:23:20 <oerjan> shachaf: there was a bit of fighting over april hth
02:23:48 <HackEgo> oerjan gamemanj int-e oerjan int-e oerjan mroman oerjan oerjan oerjan mroman_
02:25:46 <shachaf> `learn The password of the month is blah blah blah spoons blah blah blah swordfish blah blah blah
02:26:36 <oerjan> you should be careful with those, you almost got a swat before i realized HackEgo wasn't responding.
02:27:17 <oerjan> . o O ( wait is this actually discouragement )
02:27:30 <shachaf> so what you're saying is that i should have actually run the command
02:27:45 <oerjan> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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02:37:03 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 10 May 1 20:24 canary
02:37:42 <oerjan> `` cat canary; rm canary
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02:39:00 <HackEgo> The Enrichment Center is required to remind you that you will be baked, and then there will be cake.
02:40:31 <MDude> http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/okeanos/media/exstream/exstream.html Here's a sea science thing
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02:49:31 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> Why does the apple fall from the tree? <-- the tree was bumped into by a speeding chicken hth
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03:11:36 <HackEgo> smlist 437: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
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03:42:16 <oerjan> <ais523|rlwrap> also I thought lambdabot had anti-botloop protection which caused it to temporarily part (quit?) if it thought it was in a botloop <-- i believe shachaf admitted to having faked that effect hth
03:42:40 <ais523> now you mention that I vaguely remember it
03:42:56 <ais523> anyway, I'm glad that even in 2016, it's still possible to botloop using well-established bots
03:43:13 * ais523 wonders what the longest sustained botloop in any IRC channel was
03:43:28 <ais523> I have a vision of someone going into an abandoned channel which still has bots
03:43:44 <ais523> then the botloop lasting until the next netsplit or deconnect/reconnect of a bot, and possibly longer
03:43:45 <oerjan> also i'm not convinced there's any way to get a raw PRIVMSG out of HackEgo without breaking the sandbox
03:43:50 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream.
03:44:10 <ais523> well it was just a case of convincing neither hackego nor lambdabot to escape
03:46:15 <MDream> Some time I'd like to make a bot that's actually an internal network of bots talking to each other.
03:58:02 <lifthrasiir> ais523: I've seen 5 hours of botloop in a moderately sized channel
03:58:19 <lifthrasiir> mainly because no one had an op at that time
03:58:21 <ais523> lifthrasiir: were people active? and were they trying and failing to stop it?
03:58:33 <ais523> MDream: make an esolang out of it!
03:58:44 <lifthrasiir> ais523: trying only worsened the problem, obviously
03:58:57 <lifthrasiir> (especially when the bots have flood protection by themselves)
03:58:58 <ais523> well you could potentially get one of the bots thrown out for flooding
03:59:13 <ais523> ah right, anticipated my idea already :-D
03:59:50 <lifthrasiir> ais523: and resolved when the op came back and saw such a tyranny
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04:41:52 <oerjan> `learn A cipation is an evil scheme that only works if no one is prepared for it.
04:42:09 <HackEgo> Learned 'cipation': A cipation is an evil scheme that only works if no one is prepared for it.
04:47:01 <ais523> oerjan: reverse-etomologized from "anticipation", I take it?
04:48:21 <oerjan> or *entomologized if you're being weird.
04:50:59 <oerjan> `le/rn butterfly/While some might think butterflies are descended from flies, that is a false entomology.
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04:55:17 <ais523> oerjan: OK, that's one of your better puns
04:55:43 <ais523> you can get two meanings working all the way through the entire sentence
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05:52:53 <oerjan> "Warning: This movie review contains spoilers, as well as a continued fraction expansion."
05:53:16 <oerjan> http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2707
06:15:21 <shachaf> oerjan: i want to read the review but maybe i should see the movie
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06:37:10 <zzo38> Spell Poisoning {?} Instant ;; Target sorcery spell gains infect.
06:37:46 <shachaf> What did it mean for a spell to have infect?
06:37:56 <shachaf> Works it have to deal damage?
06:38:26 <ais523> I don't think infect does anyting unless you deal damage
06:38:44 <ais523> but it'd make the spell deal damage to creatures in the form of -1/-1 counters and players in the form of poison counters
06:38:59 <ais523> there's already a spell with wither, IIRC, and an activated ability that gives spells lifelink
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06:42:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[O]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46906&oldid=45798 * Phase * (+57) Add link to Java interpreter
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06:54:07 <zzo38> This puzzle is simple see if you know this one http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.8
06:58:57 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Pffft. Why would there be spoilers? Didn't we all spend 4 years in Venezuela memorizing the complete biographies of all the great mathematicians?
07:01:46 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: From that same blag: “Why is this theorem true?” “It’s true only because we’re working over the complex numbers. The analogous statement about real numbers is false.”
07:02:27 <hppavilion[1]> But it doesn't quite sit right with my primal mathematician that evolution endowed me with for very strange reasons.
07:03:31 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: what's your opinion of "each quadratic has two roots"?
07:03:43 <ais523> (given that sometimes they're complex, and sometimes they're equal to each other)
07:03:54 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Yes, I know. But it still makes the primal mathematican hiss.
07:04:13 <hppavilion[1]> (the primal mathematician is part snake because reasons)
07:04:39 <zzo38> Because of what kind of reasons?
07:05:06 <zzo38> Whether or not we evolve for complex numbers seems irrelevant.
07:05:26 <zzo38> What kind of (meta) quantum ones?
07:06:06 <hppavilion[1]> What would a universe be like where math is actually applicable to reality? Where we can use Banach-Tarski to duplicate objects and where theorems are magic?
07:06:40 <hppavilion[1]> I would like to see a story about a medieval kingdom in a world where math is particularly useful
07:07:11 <zzo38> Mathematics is the real reality; reality isn't.
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07:11:38 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: Well, I know about Ramanujan, but I assume the movie is mostly fiction, like most movies about famous mathematicians.
07:13:38 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: SPOILER: at the end, he falls into an infinitely-deep void before appearing about 8 cm /above/ the surface of the earth
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07:19:39 <zzo38> Do you like the puzzle I posted? I think it is not so difficult; also it has no unnecessary cards as far as I know. (Having unnecessary units is called "dressing the board".)
07:27:29 <zzo38> You can look them up on Gatherer or whatever, and if you want to, write their text on the printout
07:28:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46907&oldid=46905 * H3LL * (+104)
07:28:17 <shachaf> It would be nice if I could hover my mouse cursor over the names to see the cards.
07:31:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46908&oldid=46907 * H3LL * (+1) /* Example programs */
07:32:41 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it's because your primal mathematician doesn't understand ordering of quantifiers hth
07:33:22 <zzo38> You could still use the right click search function in Firefox, or write a program to do somehing else, or whatever. (I myself generally prefer to work such puzzles on paper.)
07:34:56 <oerjan> <zzo38> Mathematics is the real reality; reality isn't. <-- have i mentioned before that i'm not convinced that the true reality even has logic and mathematics?
07:37:39 <oerjan> <shachaf> [...] but I assume the movie is mostly fiction, like most movies about famous mathematicians. <-- aaronson thinks it's less so than some other examples, but not scot free.
07:37:59 <shachaf> oerjan: obviously he wouldn't think that
07:38:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Confusion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46909&oldid=46904 * H3LL * (+227) /* Confusion IDE */ new section
07:38:33 <oerjan> . o O ( why do people have to choose disturbing nicknames like H3LL )
07:39:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Confusion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46910&oldid=46909 * H3LL * (+30) /* Confusion IDE */
07:39:49 <shachaf> what's disturbing about it
07:40:22 <zzo38> Because it mixes letters with numbers, like I do.
07:40:33 <ais523> shachaf: well if oerjan started calling himself 03rj4n, wouldn't you be disturbed?
07:40:40 <ais523> (ideally use a font where the zero is slashed)
07:40:45 * oerjan swats you all -----###
07:41:02 <shachaf> I would be surprised, because IRC doesn't allow you to set a nick starting with a digit.
07:41:23 <shachaf> But who's to say that that 3 represents an E?
07:41:31 <oerjan> if the zero is slashed i'd leave out the 3, duh
07:42:21 <ais523> idea: an esolang where the font used to read the program changes its meaning (and isn't part of the storage on disk, rather the program is stored in an AST-based fashion and editors render it into text differently depending on what font they use)
07:43:57 <ais523> isn't that a common accusation levelled at mods?
07:44:18 <ais523> (but yes, despite the trolling I agree with you that the original nick under discussion is a little distasteful)
07:45:23 <shachaf> I think there have been much more distasteful nicks in here.
07:45:56 <shachaf> Though I suppose it's possible that I'm thinking of other channels.
07:46:32 <shachaf> Do you mean nicks of regulars?
07:46:59 <shachaf> There were certainly some in #haskell and other places. I don't know about here now.
07:48:56 <oerjan> and reddit is of course chock full of them.
07:50:01 <oerjan> even in otherwise polite discussions.
07:52:38 <ais523> right, that is even parodied sometimes
07:52:53 <ais523> people having a civil discussion with incredibly distateful names, and someone else pointing it out
07:53:38 <ais523> anyway, the sun's up, the buses should be running by now even on a bank holiday, and I need sleep
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07:55:14 <oerjan> hm first monday in may
07:55:32 <oerjan> we have first of may a holiday, but this year that fell on a sunday.
07:56:15 <shachaf> Distateful names like Victoria and Albert and Imperial War Museum?
07:56:27 <shachaf> Those are two names, not three.
07:56:45 <shachaf> This is why the Oxford comma should be required even for lists of length 2.
07:57:25 * oerjan assumes shachaf is joking about the misspelling but has no idea why those names are di-state-ful
07:57:44 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tate hth
07:58:02 <shachaf> I was hoping that maybe ais523 would know it but he left already.
08:00:37 <oerjan> i might have got it after a while.
08:00:55 <shachaf> It wouldn't've been worth it.
08:01:06 <oerjan> but i didn't remember that V&A was a museum.
08:01:55 <shachaf> I just picked a few from the bottom of that Wikipedia page.
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08:05:39 <oerjan> looking at today's freefall and foreshadowed in the previous one: i wonder how bad it will get when they do run out
08:09:50 <oerjan> another less spoilerish review http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=8427
08:10:37 <oerjan> " It was extremely good, infinitely better than the most recent high profile film about a mathematician, the one about Turing"
08:12:56 <shachaf> Infinitely? That's pretty better.
08:13:29 <shachaf> Are you going to watch it?
08:13:45 <shachaf> What does it take to convince you?
08:26:53 <shachaf> oerjan: have you read the olist pdf yet
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09:57:16 <fizzie> Finland also has a first-of-May holiday, and lost it this year because of Sunday.
09:57:41 <fizzie> I like the UK "if a holiday falls on a weekend, it'll be compensated for" scheme.
09:58:09 <fizzie> (Although the Early May Bank Holiday isn't an example of that, since it's always a Monday.)
09:58:44 <fizzie> But e.g. Dec 27, 2016 is the "Christmas Day (substitute day)" holiday.
09:58:59 <fizzie> (Because Dec 25, 2016 is a Sunday.)
10:05:38 <fizzie> That's Boxing Day, already a holiday.
10:05:55 <fizzie> (Which is why the Christmas Day compensation day goes all the way to a Tuesday.)
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11:27:46 <b_jonas> fizzie: do they do that even for Easter day, which is always a sunday?
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12:08:21 <lambdabot> CYUL 021100Z 08008KT 15SM OVC014 07/05 A3000 RMK SC8 SLP163
12:10:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Doorspace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46911&oldid=43601 * 51.254.73.48 * (-3) /* Statement Reference */ i won't stand for people calling # a hashtag
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12:13:02 <b_jonas> this is a nice eso-journal => http://www.universalrejection.org/
12:14:47 <boily> b_jellonas. that is a nice journal!
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15:10:48 <fizzie> b_jonas: There's an "Easter Monday" holiday, I don't think it technically counts as a substitute day for the Sunday.
15:11:04 <fizzie> (And also the Good Friday, so there's always a 4-day weekend around Easter, or so I believe.)
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15:13:16 <fizzie> (AIUI, there's a total of 8 yearly bank holidays -- New Year's Day*, Good Friday, Easter Monday, Early May bank holiday, Spring bank holiday, Summer bank holiday, Christmas Day*, Boxing Day* -- of which three -- the ones marked with * -- can fall on a weekend and result in substitute days.)
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15:17:16 <Koen_> hello solid matrices
15:17:48 <Koen_> oerjan: I know that did not work
15:18:05 <Koen_> what I don't know is how to make it work
15:23:31 <b_jonas> `? weighted companion cube
15:23:59 <HackEgo> weighted companion cube? ¯\(°_o)/¯
15:24:16 <HackEgo> companion cube? ¯\(°_o)/¯
15:24:20 <HackEgo> Cubes come in all sizes, colors and materials, but only one shape. The companion cube does not speak, however.
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15:36:24 <zgrep> `le/rn companion cube/There's cake inside it.
15:36:48 <zgrep> `le/rn companion cube/There's cake inside it. Tear it apart, rip open your companion, and extract the delicious, delicious cake...
15:36:53 <HackEgo> Relearned «companion cube»
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17:33:09 <myname> A strapon that looks like E.T.'s finger - its tip lights up when it touches another strapon.
17:34:50 <b_jonas> `learn alpha is the numeric measurement of opaqueness, a dog with unusually high voice in the Disney-Pixar Up film, and a NATO phonetic alphabet letteral.
17:34:56 <HackEgo> Learned 'alpha': alpha is the numeric measurement of opaqueness, a dog with unusually high voice in the Disney-Pixar Up film, and a NATO phonetic alphabet letteral.
17:35:22 <shachaf> boily has an unusually hi voice
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18:29:55 <int-e> it's and ocean out there
18:30:00 <hppavilion[1]> Has anybody designed a browser by the principal of a microkernel, rather than as a monolithic kernel (look at me, applying terms from different fields to their equivalents here)
18:30:52 <int-e> anyway... the closes we've come so far is sandboxing, I think.
18:31:04 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: you're hurting me
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18:32:15 <int-e> Partly. From a security perspective, a better separation of concerns (with isolated processes... or threads if you will...) would be nice.
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18:32:29 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Not sure you do, but I don't understand what you're saying
18:33:09 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: It would be a browser where the browser itself is almost /nothing/; instead of being everything in one big software bundle, plus cutesy extensions, the browser would be an API that comes with a million extensions on top of it
18:33:22 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: Well at least I've found some meaning in your random combination of terms this time.
18:33:29 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: So there are extensions dedicated to rendering pages, rather than the browser backend doing it
18:33:30 <int-e> usually I fail to do that.
18:33:53 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: I don't see much value in a pure plugin framework.
18:34:04 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: I don't either, but I feel like there would be
18:34:18 <int-e> but browser security, now that's someting worth (but hard) tackling.
18:34:18 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: It would motivate the browser to be more extensible and more powerful?
18:35:02 <int-e> To take the kernel analogy, Linux is a monolithic kernel, but lack of extensibility is not one of its shortcomings.
18:35:08 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: With a browser with this degree of extensibility, I figure you could adapt it rapidly to new languages and such
18:35:18 <int-e> modular design and isolation at runtime are independent features.
18:35:39 <int-e> err, well, not independent
18:35:46 <int-e> but you can do the former without the latter
18:36:00 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: But then again, the browser is monolithic in a different fashion; Linux can be monolithic but extensible because you never want to mess with the low-level stuff
18:36:26 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: In a monolithic browser, the basic stuff is much higher-level; e.g. rendering webpages and executing javascript
18:37:10 <int-e> Well, you can have several things interfacing with a single DOM.
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18:37:49 <hppavilion[1]> Um. For some reason, my gcc cross-compiler is recognizing my initialization of an array and me setting its elements as conflicting type definitions
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18:38:04 <int-e> To get a modular, design, optionally using isolated components... though the shared DOM will be quite a big chunk.
18:38:11 <hppavilion[1]> I slept on it, and I think I see to some degree /why/
18:38:15 <b_jonas> int-e: ah nice, that sounds like fungot said it
18:38:16 <fungot> b_jonas: i'll give it a try. thanks! _ http://www.befunge.org/ fyb/ is broken
18:38:24 <b_jonas> fungot, To get a modular, design, optionally using isolated components... though the shared DOM will be quite a big chunk.
18:38:24 <fungot> b_jonas: lindi or someone could write one. let us know the specifics of how compilers do things functionally, without actually reallocating things, when i don't have any
18:38:31 <int-e> b_jonas: because of the extra comma?
18:38:50 <b_jonas> int-e: no, because of the high amount of buzzwords
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18:39:19 <b_jonas> int-e: fungot in the scheme setting often gives his idealistic opinions about software design
18:39:19 <fungot> b_jonas: oh wait the bottom left ' thing', by neal stephenson.), the ability to pause for indefinite amounts of time.
18:39:28 <int-e> fungot: watch out, you'll soon be obsolete
18:40:32 <izabera> he got obsoleted before finishig the sentence
18:42:22 <hppavilion[1]> How do I then set an element of that array without it thinking that the assignment is a separate definition?
18:42:37 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm doing this as a constant, so that might be the problem...)
18:45:29 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: OK, but how do I assign each element separately? I need to do that for legibility
18:45:48 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: same, but add newlines?
18:45:58 <izabera> int arr[3]; arr[1] = 1; arr[0] = 0; arr[2] = 2;
18:46:04 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: I have char scancode[0xFF][8], and I want to set each scancode[n] to a (short) string
18:46:16 <int-e> int arr[3] = { 0: 1, 1: 1, 2: 2 }; <-- don't we have this syntax now?
18:46:27 <int-e> izabera: I suspect this is on the toplevel
18:46:39 <b_jonas> int-e: that's the gcc extension. there's a C99 (or maybe C11) syntax, but it doesn't work in C++
18:46:53 <int-e> so short of writing an initializer function it simply doesn't work.
18:47:06 <hppavilion[1]> ...is easier than the C I've done before, somehow)
18:47:46 <b_jonas> int-e: the C99 syntax is int arr[3] = {[0] = 1, [1] = 1, [2] = 2};
18:47:55 <shachaf> b_jonas: But C++ could allow a similar syntax, I would guess?
18:48:29 <int-e> b_jonas: yeah I remembered.
18:49:30 <shachaf> b_jonas: Something like {{0,1},{1,1},{2,2}}
18:50:07 <b_jonas> shachaf: maybe if you define a function that initializes an array from an array-of-pairs like that
18:50:12 <hppavilion[1]> OK, now it's complaining about "assignment to expression with array type"
18:50:22 <b_jonas> shachaf: note that C++ can have initializers that aren't compile time constant, for ages
18:50:23 <shachaf> Except it's not an array but whatever that thing was called.
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18:52:10 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: OK, why is it complaining about "assignment to expression with array type"
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18:53:34 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: maybe you should actually show the code you're trying, like on a paste site?
18:53:47 <b_jonas> we're not good at crystal ball debugging
18:54:20 <hppavilion[1]> I had to change the declaration of scancode from char scancode[0xFF][8] to const char *scancode[0xFF]
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19:24:57 <coppro> https://about.gitlab.com/2016/04/28/gitlab-major-security-update-for-cve-2016-4340/
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19:29:25 <int-e> coppro: love the "install gitlab on your server in 2 minutes" banner on the same page...
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19:33:11 <\oren\> i want a button that types std:: in one keystroke
19:34:57 <zzo38> I do not use GitLab, but maybe it is useful to someone who does
19:35:20 <zzo38> \oren\: Can you configure your computer to allow it, or connect an external device that will do it?
19:37:02 <coppro> \oren\: get a gaming keyboard
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19:41:46 <b_jonas> \oren\: maybe you should learn to use using declarations.
19:44:01 <int-e> I thought "using std" was frowned upon
19:44:25 <b_jonas> int-e: no, it's using namespace std; that is frowned upon,
19:44:46 <b_jonas> for that imports all symbols from std to your namespace, even the symbols you don't even know about and might exist only in the future or non-portably.
19:45:40 <b_jonas> int-e: if you import specific symbols to your namespace like using std::min; using std::max; using std::abort; using std::cerr; using std::abs; using std::sqrt; using std::array; that is usually fine
19:45:50 <b_jonas> because you know which symbols you import
19:46:40 <int-e> Fine. (okay, I'm not a C++ programmer, but one reason that I didn't get "using namespace std" right is that I never do it... I just don't find those std:: too onerous overall)
19:47:18 <b_jonas> int-e: you don't have to import every symbol from std, it's just useful for certain symbols if you use them a lot in contexts where the std would be distracting
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20:03:17 <coppro> it's also fine to use a using-directive in a limited scope
20:03:29 <coppro> you should never put a using-directive or using-declaration in global scope in a header, though
20:03:33 <coppro> (though modules will fix that, yay!)
20:05:00 <b_jonas> fungot, what is your general opinion about using declarations?
20:05:00 <fungot> b_jonas: well there is no modification here. :p
20:05:16 <b_jonas> fungot: and about using directives and namespace aliases too
20:05:16 <fungot> b_jonas: you're welcome. have fun. :) as far as slow compilers goes, i don't
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20:21:09 <int-e> char is an integral type in C
20:21:40 <zzo38> Just use the char value by itself, it is the value you need
20:21:56 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I need to get an element of an array at the index
20:21:57 <zzo38> If formatted as %d it will display the number, if formatted as %c it will display the character.
20:22:07 <zzo38> Element of what array at what index?
20:22:33 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I want to convert the char to a number and get the element at that index.
20:23:06 <zzo38> What character is it and what array, can you give information?
20:23:17 <zzo38> You might need c&127 or c&255 depending on what you are doing, too
20:23:32 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: The array is called pressed and it is an array of bools
20:24:04 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: The character is part of a const char* returned from a function that gets user input
20:24:44 <zzo38> You need to get the character from the string properly too, ensure it is done.
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20:26:25 <zzo38> You said it didn't work, what happened?
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20:52:57 <FireFly> How big is the array? 'char' might be signed
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20:57:42 <zzo38> It is why I suggested c&255
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21:42:16 <zzo38> A program for editing picture files could be made to have all filters external and use farbfeld for stdin/stdout; some filters may be input-only or output-only, such as loading and saving the picture to a file.
21:45:38 <pikhq> That would be fairly flexible.
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22:08:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Random]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46912&oldid=20078 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) /* External resources */
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23:22:04 <boily> coppro: coprello. did you receive a censusletter?
23:23:14 <ais523> we can combine a greeting, an answer to a question, and a pseudo-nickping all into one word nowadays?
23:23:46 <boily> the porthello game is strong in this chännel.
23:24:57 <ais523> I've never really been a fan of them, but I admit they tend to be popular
23:25:15 <^v^v> implementing a heap in brainfuck
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23:26:48 <ais523> I'm not sure you need to say anything else, it's going to be hard to get /much/ more eso than that sentence
23:26:55 <ais523> were you looking for help, or just wanted to let us know what you were working on?
23:26:57 <shachaf> Are you ^v `^_^v and all those other people?
23:27:09 <boily> oerjan: how would you porthello ^v^v?
23:27:56 <^v^v> shachaf, i am PixelToast
23:28:10 <^v^v> ^v^v is my only nick on this network
23:29:17 <^v^v> ^v is my IRC bot
23:29:20 <oerjan> ais523: just one pixel hth
23:29:35 <^v^v> assuming someone diddnt take it
23:29:47 <ais523> well there's been a ^v in this channel before
23:29:56 <^v^v> that would probably be me
23:29:57 <ais523> I'm assuming that was your bot otherwise there's some sort of enormous coincidence involevd
23:30:24 <^v^v> what time was this ^v here?
23:30:28 <^v^v> i dont talk much here
23:31:10 <oerjan> ^v was here for years, although i don't remember when i saw em last
23:31:48 <^v^v> `^_^v is not me
23:31:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ^_^v: not found
23:32:03 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't think those were the same person
23:32:27 <^v^v> i would have probably been talking about Lua, brainfuck or me making an esolang with just ^ and v
23:33:04 <oerjan> although ^v must been around when we experimented with noping implementations in HackEgo, because i distinctly remember thinking i refused to bother making it work for 2-char nicks
23:33:45 <^v^v> well, i registered it Registered : Jul 26 04:15:44 2013 (2y 40w 1d ago)
23:34:22 <ais523> ^v^v: ^v has "website = http://ptoast.tk/", is that your website?
23:34:37 <^v^v> ais523, that was my old website url
23:34:41 <^v^v> i now have pxtst.com
23:34:58 <^v^v> but thats still my bot's account
23:35:00 <ais523> so I guess ^v is you but stuck in the past
23:35:09 <ais523> just like ais523_ is me but on someone else's computer
23:36:11 -!- ^v^v has changed nick to ^v.
23:36:20 <^v> ^0 is my bot's nick
23:37:17 <oerjan> @tell koen_ <Koen_> oerjan: I know that did not work <-- i've long since forgotten what the subject was hth
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23:39:08 * oerjan found it in a 4 day old log
23:39:15 <moon__> im not connecting from my tablet ever again
23:39:19 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:41:39 -!- boily has quit (Quit: INJECTION CHICKEN).
23:42:21 <HackEgo> alpha is the numeric measurement of opaqueness, a dog with unusually high voice in the Disney-Pixar Up film, and a NATO phonetic alphabet letteral.
23:42:40 <oerjan> `` sed -i sbabAb wisdom/alpha
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23:50:43 <moon__> `ciol rI need to fix that;
00:05:47 <moon__> dont abuse my intepreter for CIOL
00:06:04 <moon__> Booting... Checking Shellmodule.bin Checking systemlibrary.slib Checking Kernal.bin All good RESONANCE SHELL TERMINAL V4 Please enter a commmand >
00:06:17 <moon__> http://esolangs.org/wiki/CIOL
00:09:29 <nchambers> it looks like brainfuck and C had a love child
00:10:27 <moon__> did you see the quine examples?
00:12:41 <moon__> also, what do you think of the register system?
00:13:37 <nchambers> decent. reminds me of befunge kind of
00:14:11 <moon__> anyways, being lazy is not good for trying to make a 99bb program in CIOL
00:15:14 <moon__> i might just grab the lyrics and put them in a r ; block :P
00:15:59 <HackEgo> A Lie algebra is what you get if you take the region infinitesimally close to the identity of a Lie group and blow it up to normal size.
00:17:08 <moon__> lazyness has been made: http://pastebin.com/5g4pL4U1
00:20:54 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯ is a misspelling of ¯\(°_o)/¯
00:25:09 <HackEgo> Uncyclopedia is always factually accurate, except for uh, that one entry? it started with like, an AA? you can probably find it in https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex/The_Unicyclopedia
00:26:37 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
00:28:19 <oerjan> it does lookups in our wisdom database
00:34:37 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
00:37:21 <HackEgo> .doorstop/You do not have the clearance necessary to view this entry.
00:37:54 <HackEgo> 1136) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
00:45:55 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
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01:02:58 <oerjan> another irregular webcomic election landslide http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cgi-bin/poll.pl?a=1
01:03:14 <oerjan> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cgi-bin/poll.pl
01:04:03 <oerjan> use http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/polls/ unless you want to vote for tea in the next poll hth
01:04:14 * oerjan felt like a cup of tea for once
01:04:53 <oerjan> if i only had some in reality. i guess it's cola instead ->
01:07:01 <oerjan> i think most here can agree that the best candidate won.
01:07:21 <moon__> Lazyness ultima: http://pastebin.com/5g4pL4U1
01:07:53 <oerjan> moon__: i don't feel like that counts.
01:08:32 <oerjan> repeating all the text
01:08:44 * oerjan didn't notice he was making a pun
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01:09:18 <HackEgo> Your infamous mysterious evil cackling overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker.
01:09:51 <HackEgo> usage: mk[x] file//contents
01:10:04 <oerjan> `learn_append oerjan He sometimes puns without noticing it.
01:10:11 <HackEgo> Learned 'oerjan': Your infamous mysterious evil cackling overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
01:10:18 <moon__> `mkx moonstat//echo stop stalking me!
01:10:25 <moon__> `mv moonstat bin/moonstat
01:10:26 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `moonstat bin/moonstat' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
01:10:38 <moon__> ``mv moonstat bin/moonstat
01:10:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `mv: not found
01:10:44 <moon__> `` mv moonstat bin/moonstat
01:11:04 <oerjan> also, you can create the file in its proper place
01:11:45 * moon__ needs to learn how to shellscript
01:12:21 <oerjan> indeed. i think ! sometimes needs escaping, although apparently not in that context.
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01:13:21 <oerjan> `` echo stop stalking me!!
01:14:14 <oerjan> probably !! only works interactively.
01:15:11 <moon__> expr is a native command for preforming math
01:17:36 <oerjan> `le/rn overlord/Evil overlords do evil acts like taking over the world, kicking puppies and changing their own wisdom entries.
01:17:47 <oerjan> `le/rn overlord/Evil overlords do evil acts like taking over the world, kicking puppies, and changing their own wisdom entries.
01:19:37 <oerjan> which technically is not a crime where i live, but still.
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01:22:45 <oerjan> <moon__> expr is a native command for preforming math <-- i know, i was just checking if someone had redefined it.
01:23:13 <moon__> `mk bin/swat//echo >---▦▦, bad $1
01:23:26 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/swat: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/swat: cannot execute: Permission denied
01:23:33 <moon__> `mkx bin/swat//echo >---▦▦, bad $1
01:23:52 <HackEgo> moon__ moon__ elliott shachaf elliott shachaf elliott shachaf
01:24:03 <oerjan> i'm sorry, but i have to revert that.
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01:25:09 <moon__> ``echo >---▦▦, bad moon
01:25:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `echo: not found
01:25:15 <moon__> `` echo >---▦▦, bad moon
01:25:31 <moon__> can he not do unicode?
01:25:37 <moon__> `` echo >---##, bad moon
01:25:37 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
01:25:39 <HackEgo> [U+25A6 SQUARE WITH ORTHOGONAL CROSSHATCH FILL] [U+25A6 SQUARE WITH ORTHOGONAL CROSSHATCH FILL]
01:25:53 <moon__> `echo >---##, bad moon
01:26:00 <moon__> `echo >---▦▦, bad moon
01:26:02 <oerjan> the unicode is fine, but our irc clients don't have it
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01:26:34 <HackEgo> cat: swat: No such file or directory
01:26:43 <shachaf> `` hg log bin/swat | grap summary: | tac
01:26:50 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: grap: command not found
01:26:57 <shachaf> `` hg log bin/swat | grep summary: | tac
01:27:31 <oerjan> moon__: it actually had been deleted
01:27:48 <ais523> SQUARE WITH ORTHOGONAL CROSSHATCH FILL renders for me
01:28:10 <moon__> `mkx bin/swat//echo >---▦▦ echo bad echo $1
01:28:23 <moon__> how do i make it output?
01:28:46 <oerjan> however, i must still disagree on the principle that there is only one true swatter, and it doesn't look that way.
01:29:16 <moon__> this for me looks like a fly swatter
01:29:22 <oerjan> the > is a special character
01:29:38 <moon__> `mkx bin/swat//echo ---▦▦ echo bad echo $1
01:29:55 <moon__> `mkx bin/swat//echo ---▦▦ bad $1
01:30:18 <moon__> `mkx bin/altswat//echo ---## bad $1
01:30:22 <oerjan> oh well, these are the end times anyway.
01:32:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lol-md4 * New user account
01:32:29 <oerjan> that's not the proper one either. besides, the swatter is a private weapon.
01:33:45 <oerjan> it's mine. although sometimes people steal it.
01:34:16 <moon__> *goes to buy a weapon*
01:35:48 <moon__> 0== 🐌 snail cannon, anyone?
01:36:35 * moon__ hits oerjan with a snail 0==🐌
01:37:12 <oerjan> help i'm being shelled
01:37:54 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: fancy, but inconvenient
01:38:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `mkdir: not found
01:38:34 <moon__> i wanted to add the snail
01:38:38 <hppavilion[1]> moon__: HackEgo is for things of general interest.
01:39:50 <hppavilion[1]> boily has the mapole, oerjan has the swatter, moon__ has the snail cannon, /me is a motherfucking walrus, what else is there?
01:40:00 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: are you also paul mccartney twh
01:40:00 * moon__ hits oerjan with a snail 0==🐌
01:40:44 * moon__ hits oerjan with a snail 0==🐌 for puns
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01:42:20 * moon__ greets Kaynato with the snail cannon 0==🐌
01:42:48 <moon__> <hppavilion[1]> boily has the mapole, oerjan has the swatter, moon__ has the snail cannon, /me is a motherfucking walrus, what else is there?
01:43:11 * moon__ steals oerjan's swatter
01:43:16 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i also have the saucepan for more serious whacking
01:43:34 <oerjan> that's still not my swatter.
01:43:49 <hppavilion[1]> moon__: I also have the esobell lying around here somewhere...
01:43:54 * moon__ uses the community swatter
01:44:30 * moon__ fires snails at it, making it all slimey 0==🐌
01:44:54 -!- Moon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
01:45:19 <moon__> its called logging out on your device
01:45:23 <moon__> that you forgot to log out of
01:47:27 <moon__> `` mkx bin/userweps//echo boily has the mapole, oerjan has the swatter, moon__ has the snail cannon, /me is a motherfucking walrus, what else is there?
01:47:38 <moon__> `` mkx bin/userweps//echo boily has the mapole, oerjan has the swatter, moon__ has the snail cannon, hppa is a motherfucking walrus, what else is there?
01:48:02 <moon__> `` mkx bin/userweps//echo boily has the mapole, oerjan has the swatter, moon has the snail cannon, hppa is a motherfucking walrus, what else is there?
01:48:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `userweps: not found
01:49:01 <moon__> `` mkx jnk/userweps//'echo boily has the mapole, oerjan has the swatter, moon has the snail cannon, hppa is a motherfucking walrus, what else is there'
01:49:13 <HackEgo> echo boily has the mapole, oerjan has the swatter, moon has the snail cannon, hppa is a motherfucking walrus, what else is there
01:49:17 <HackEgo> boily has the mapole, oerjan has the swatter, moon has the snail cannon, hppa is a motherfucking walrus, what else is there
01:49:54 <HackEgo> boily has the mapole, oerjan has the swatter, moon has the snail cannon, hppa is a motherfucking walrus, what else is there
01:50:45 <HackEgo> boily has the mapole, oerjan has the swatter, moon has the snail cannon, hppavilion[1] is a motherfucking walrus
01:50:49 <moon__> `mv bin/something jnk/something.bin
01:50:51 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `bin/something jnk/something.bin' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
01:50:57 <moon__> `` mv bin/something jnk/something.bin
01:50:59 <HackEgo> mv: cannot stat `bin/something': No such file or directory
01:51:03 <moon__> `` mv bin/something jnk/something
01:51:05 <HackEgo> mv: cannot stat `bin/something': No such file or directory
01:51:14 <moon__> `` mv bin/Something jnk/something
01:51:34 <HackEgo> âELF............>.....0@.....@....... ..........@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@.....À.......À............................@......@............................................@.......@.....\......\........ ....................`......`.....`......¬....... .................`.....`.....à.......à................
01:51:34 <moon__> i like it for identification
01:51:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `mv: not found
01:52:16 <hppavilion[1]> moon__: jnk is for keeping files that are meant to be catted
01:52:53 <moon__> `mk jnk/readme//This area is for files ment to be catted and single data files
01:52:59 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
01:53:06 <moon__> `mk jnk/readme//'This area is for files ment to be catted and single data files'
01:53:41 <HackEgo> cat: readme: No such file or directory
01:53:48 <HackEgo> cat: jnk/readme: No such file or directory
01:53:57 <HackEgo> 'This area is for files meant to be catted and single data files'
01:54:17 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file
01:54:53 <HackEgo> 1:5/And fungot called the cloud internet, and the hard drive *n?x. And the DNS and the server were upon the first day.
01:55:30 <HackEgo> /cat: : No such file or directory
01:55:48 <HackEgo> heh/heh stands for hope ectoplasm helps.
01:55:50 <HackEgo> Moon is a person, not an unretroreflectorey object.
01:56:19 <HackEgo> kill: failed to parse argument: 'oerjan'
01:56:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: maim: not found
01:56:51 <moon__> can junk have batch files, like a maim file?
01:58:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 🐚: not found
02:00:42 <hppavilion[1]> Huh. Unicode doesn't support the IS(I[SL])? flag. Weird.
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02:02:14 <hppavilion[1]> I'm tempted to put the Illuminati Control Panel under bin/🔯, but I'm afraid of looking like a complete asshole.
02:02:40 -!- moon__ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
02:06:45 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Messed up terminal).
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02:09:44 <oerjan> tmux seemed to have zombified itself :(
02:10:04 -!- Opodeldoc has quit (Quit: Leaving).
02:10:41 <oerjan> well not quite zombified, kill -9 worked
02:15:04 <coppro> got an enemy ship where all the weapons are beams
02:17:28 <oerjan> `` mv {jnk,wisdom}/userweps
02:17:44 <HackEgo> This area is for files meant to be catted and single data files'
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02:18:13 <oerjan> those belong in wisdom and share, respectively, hth
02:20:59 <oerjan> the latter is incidentally also the place i'll probably move other directories to if you keep filling the toplevel with them.
02:23:41 <HackEgo> ^ \ ---##, \ ---▦▦ \ ---▦▦, \ :-( \ !\.´ \ . \ .. \ 71ab5gx8 \ 99 \ 99bb \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ cdescs \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ daoyu.c \ dog \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ Eternity \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ .hg \ .hg_archival.txt \ hia \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ marsha \ misle \ p
02:23:57 <HackEgo> !\.´ \ ---##, \ ---▦▦ \ ---▦▦, \ . \ .. \ .hg \ .hg_archival.txt \ 71ab5gx8 \ 99 \ 99bb \ :-( \ :-D \ Complaints.mp3 \ Eternity \ ReUariBw \ Something.c \ ^ \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ cdescs \ daoyu.c \ dog \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hia \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls
02:24:13 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access .s*: No such file or directory
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02:26:56 <oerjan> i exterminated the jnk/ directory and moved the important parts to wisdom/
02:27:09 <oerjan> because it seemed redundant to me.
02:27:17 <Moon_> Up made that, not me
02:27:41 <oerjan> ok it was a bit confusing all around
02:27:50 <oerjan> especially with my client crashing about then
02:28:12 <Moon_> I just use the site
02:28:19 <Moon_> It's basically all around
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03:08:46 <zzo38> Someone one mentioned to me a puzzle of Magic: the Gathering cards, which is for a permanent to be attached to another permanent that shares a planeswalker type with it, both controlled by the same player, and remain attached for an entire turn.
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04:35:23 <zzo38> Apparently it is possible somehow.
04:35:58 <zzo38> Actually I am unsure whether it said owned by the same player or controlled by the same player; I forget.
04:54:31 <zzo38> There were other specifications too but I forget some
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06:28:25 <ais523> zzo38: it's "owned by the same player", there's no way to get around the planeswalker uniqueness rule otherwise (I've seen the puzzle, it also requires that both permanents are actually planeswalkers)
06:28:58 <zzo38> Permanents that aren't planeswalkers can't have planeswalker types I think.
06:29:20 <zzo38> (Non-creature permanents can still have creature types though, but that's different.)
06:30:54 <ais523> ah right, losing a type makes you lose its subtypes?
06:30:55 <shachaf> "owned by the same player" makes more sense.
06:31:33 <shachaf> How would a subgame with ante work?
06:36:48 <zzo38> shachaf: I have asked the same question. I would do it that ownership changes simply persist across subgame boundaries, as well as restarted game boundaries (but not necessarily across duel boundaries; that is up to match rules).
06:37:46 <ais523> how does ante work if you have a 7-card library?
06:38:16 <ais523> this is a situation that can come up with subgames
06:38:29 <ais523> actually IMO the most sensible way to do ante with subgames is to not ante at the start of the subgame
06:38:46 <zzo38> Yes I did also specify that you don't ante at the start of a subgame.
06:38:49 <ais523> and any cards that end up in the ante zone at the end of the subgame are transferred to the library of the subgame's winner in the next game up
06:38:54 <zzo38> But that some cards may nevertheless add stuff to the ante zone.
06:42:04 <zzo38> My specification would be that they are shuffled into the main game library belonging to the subgame's winner once the subgame is finished, since he owns them.
06:45:29 <zzo38> The other consideration of ante is interaction with team game. I would specify that for a subgame, cards not already owned by the winning team are assigned randomly to winners of the subgame that are still in the subgame (players may concede the subgame at this time if they believe it helpful to assign to a particular player); for a main game, the winning team assigns cards that winning team doesn't own among themselves however they wish (whether
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06:47:19 <zzo38> (Which way is best can depend on match rules. In the case of permanent ante, it may be necessary for the team to come to an agreement before the game starts.)
06:48:01 <zzo38> I hope this makes sense to you! What would you think of it?
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06:53:33 <zzo38> I do think the rules for ante are a bit messy and would want to correct it.
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11:51:16 <boily> @ask oerjan you pun? are you shachaf in disguise?
11:52:19 <boily> Moon_: Mhelloon_. what with the snail cannon?
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12:34:58 <b_jonas> "Someone one mentioned to me a puzzle of Magic: the Gathering cards, which is for a permanent to be attached to another permanent that shares a planeswalker type with it, both controlled by the same player, and remain attached for an entire turn." -- tricky
12:36:13 <b_jonas> ah, "<ais523> zzo38: it's "owned by the same player", there's no way to get around the planeswalker uniqueness rule otherwise (I've seen the puzzle, it also requires that both permanents are actually planeswalkers)"
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13:30:02 <quintopia> i don't like this idea of MtG puzzles. when there are that many rules to something, puzzles must typically amount to knowing lots of rules and where they apply
13:39:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46913&oldid=46908 * H3LL * (+127)
13:40:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46914&oldid=46913 * H3LL * (+0) /* External resources */
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14:02:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46915&oldid=46914 * Quintopia * (+100) categories
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14:37:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Confusion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46916&oldid=46910 * H3LL * (+140)
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14:55:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Confusion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46917&oldid=46916 * H3LL * (+5) /* Confusion IDE uploaded */
15:25:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46918&oldid=46915 * H3LL * (+15) /* Implementations */
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17:50:57 <hppavilion[1]> I think that the USA's current class (not a set, for obvious reasons) of predicaments in the Middle East needs a name
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17:52:48 <izabera> what would it need a name for
17:57:41 <zzo38> So that you can know what it is called.
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18:15:21 <shachaf> zzo38: But that doesn't always help, e.g. with Lewis Carroll's song called "Ways and Means", whose name is "The Aged Aged Man".
18:16:49 <zzo38> Yes, OK it doesn't always help. But sometimes it help.
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18:55:34 <HackEgo> olist 1035: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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19:53:52 <zzo38> Do you like my brother's idea of Un-card "In A Band With Others"?
19:56:12 <zzo38> How to generate an optimized palette?
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20:00:13 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: i propose brushfire wars, on account of those were the conflicts preceding the zombie war in world war z
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20:08:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[3code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46919&oldid=44834 * 82.2.190.177 * (-10) Updated to new link
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20:22:24 <fizzie> If you want "optimized" in the sense of best representing some non-palettized image, I think a classic method is an octree-based quantization.
20:23:10 <shachaf> zzo38: What would that card do?
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20:28:29 <zzo38> In A Band With Others {1W} Enchantment - Aura ;; Enchant creature ;; Whenever enchanted creature attacks as part of a band containing additional creatures, its controller must sing a song during the entire duration of the attack. Combat damage is not dealt until song is complete.
20:28:41 <fizzie> Another kind of a classic in that field is the http://members.ozemail.com.au/~dekker/NEUQUANT.HTML which I know mostly because it's based on a Kohonen network, and my office used to be almost next to Kohonen's. But it also has ended up in quite a few programs.
20:29:03 <myname> etter learn some 5 second long songs
20:29:27 <myname> how the hell did i do,that
20:29:37 <fizzie> I think you made a B into a ^B.
20:29:37 <zzo38> You must have pushed control instead of shift
20:30:07 <shachaf> zzo38: I would expect it to interact with the "bands with other" mechanic.
20:30:45 <zzo38> shachaf: It doesn't matter whether it is ordinary banding or "bands with other", as long as it is attacking as part of a band containing additional creatures.
20:31:02 <shachaf> zzo38: Yes, but I would have expected it to explicitly interact with that mechanic.
20:31:23 <zzo38> Yes, although that isn't what it does
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21:07:13 <HackEgo> b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek.
21:07:25 * ybden wishes they could understand this
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21:09:30 * quintopia wonders whether ybden uses "I" or "we" when speaking in the first person
21:10:07 <ybden> quintopia: sometimes "we"; mostly "I".
21:10:47 <ybden> b_jonas: "they" is to the third person as "we" is to the first person
21:11:46 <b_jonas> I see, it's re “ybden wishes they could understand this”
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22:19:18 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access jnk: No such file or directory
22:24:03 <HackEgo> ^ \ ---##, \ ---▦▦ \ ---▦▦, \ :-( \ !\.´ \ 71ab5gx8 \ 99 \ 99bb \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ cdescs \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ daoyu.c \ dog \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ Eternity \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hia \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ marsha \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \
22:24:19 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ---▦▦: not found
22:24:23 <HackEgo> ls: unrecognized option '---▦▦' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
22:24:30 <HackEgo> ls: unrecognized option '---▦▦/' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
22:24:35 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /---▦▦/: No such file or directory
22:24:41 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /---##/: No such file or directory
22:24:46 <HackEgo> ls: unrecognized option '---##' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
22:25:02 <Xe> `ls -- ---##
22:25:03 <HackEgo> ls: unrecognized option '-- ---##' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
22:25:16 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access ./--##: No such file or directory
22:25:20 <Xe> `ls ./---##
22:25:21 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access ./---##: No such file or directory
22:25:39 <ybden> Hmm, does it not properly handle --?
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22:25:56 <moon_> its the unacessable flyswatter
22:26:53 <int-e> if you use a single ` the given command gets at most one argument... even if you have more than one space
22:27:31 <int-e> `` ls -la -- ---##,
22:27:34 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 9 May 3 00:25 ---##,
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22:28:40 <HackEgo> hg log: option ---##, not recognized
22:28:52 <moon_> `ciol someone is trolling us
22:28:53 <int-e> `culprits ./---##,
22:28:58 <moon_> `ciol rsomeone is trolling us;
22:29:12 <zgrep> `culprits "---##,"
22:29:44 <moon_> i never made a -##
22:29:56 <int-e> zgrep: that'll just pass a file name that contains a " character
22:30:16 <zgrep> int-e: I was willing to take the chance that it got passed to bash somewhere along the way. :P
22:30:21 <int-e> (well, two of them)
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22:30:36 <HackEgo> hg log --removed "$1" | grep summary: | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}' | sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
22:30:50 <zgrep> Does hg do the -- thing?
22:31:00 <moon_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/CIOL
22:31:21 <moon_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/CIOL
22:31:41 <int-e> `` sed -i 's/removed/removed --/' bin/culprits
22:32:06 <moon_> i never made those that i kno of
22:32:15 <HackEgo> cat: unrecognized option '---#,' \ Try `cat --help' for more information.
22:32:21 <HackEgo> cat: ./---#,: No such file or directory
22:32:48 <moon_> someone is shitting with me
22:33:24 <int-e> <moon__> ` echo >---##, bad moon
22:33:37 <int-e> (initial ` omitted)
22:34:10 <moon_> that explains it, but i dont think i ever said that
22:35:14 <int-e> well, somebody calling themselved moon__ did, 21ish hours ago.
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22:36:26 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ \ ! \ ? \ ?? \ ¿ \ ' \ @ \ * \ ؟ \ \ \ \ 1492 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 5quote \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ aglist \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ append \ arienvenido \ as86 \ aseen \ asm \ autowelcome \ bardsworthlist \ before \ benvenuto \ bf \ bienvenido \ bienvenue \ blessyou \ bookofeso \
22:36:48 <moon_> where do i browse hackegos file system again
22:38:41 <HackEgo> \ LuaRocks 2.0.12, a module deployment system for Lua \ \ NAME \ luarocks - LuaRocks main command-line interface \ \ SYNOPSIS \ luarocks [--from=<server> | --only-from=<server>] [--to=<tree>] [VAR=VALUE]... <command> [<argument>] \ \ GENERAL OPTIONS \ These apply to all commands, as appropriate: \ \ --server=<server> Fetch rocks/r
22:39:41 -!- boily has joined.
22:40:20 <boily> biological boily: bioly.
22:41:14 <HackEgo> ኢትዮጵያ ውስጥ የሚሰራ የምግብ አይነት ሲሆን፣ የሚሰራውም ከጤፍ ነው።
22:44:13 <moon_> `` mk templates/terminalWrapper//'output=$(softwaretorungoeshere) | eval $output'
22:44:34 <moon_> simply executes any command that the program passes on
22:45:11 <moon_> ``mv templates/terminalWrapper templates/termwrapperOut
22:45:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `mv: not found
22:45:20 <moon_> `` mv templates/terminalWrapper templates/termwrapperOut
22:45:26 <moon_> 'software to run goes here'
22:45:39 <moon_> alongside its arguments
22:46:15 <moon_> note that it doesnt get any hackego side assistance like ''
22:46:50 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
22:47:07 <boily> fungot: do you ring software? ♪
22:47:07 <fungot> boily: and have a cost on everything in the file, not one cluttered with macros implementing half a reader, so passing it invalid arguments will result in a lot of things
22:47:42 <moon_> that output wrapper might work, eh?
22:48:15 <moon_> `` output=$(softwaretorungoeshere) | out2 = eval $output | echo $out2'
22:48:17 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file
22:48:41 <moon_> `` `output=$(ciol recho oops!;) | out2 = eval $output | echo $out2'
22:48:42 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file
22:48:57 <moon_> `` 'output=$(ciol recho oops!;) | out2 = eval $output | echo $out2'
22:48:58 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: output=$(ciol recho oops!;) | out2 = eval $output | echo $out2: command not found
22:49:08 <moon_> `` 'output=$(ciol recho oops!;) | out2 = eval $output'
22:49:08 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: output=$(ciol recho oops!;) | out2 = eval $output: command not found
22:49:16 <moon_> `` 'output=$(ciol recho oops!;) | eval $output'
22:49:17 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: output=$(ciol recho oops!;) | eval $output: command not found
22:50:03 <moon_> `` output=$(ciol recho oops!;) | eval $output
22:50:18 <moon_> `` output=$(ciol recho win;) | eval $output
22:50:32 <moon_> `` output=$(ciol recho win;) eval $output
22:50:48 <moon_> `` output=$(ciol rls;) eval $output
22:51:36 <moon_> `` mk templates/termwrapperOut//output=$(ciol rls;) eval $output
22:51:51 <moon_> `` mk templates/termwrapperOut//output=$(command and args goes here) eval $output
22:51:53 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: and: command not found \ templates/termwrapperOut
22:52:07 <moon_> `` mk templates/termwrapperOut//'output=$(command and args goes here) eval $output'
22:53:29 <int-e> `` cmd='echo Hi\!'; eval "$cmd"
22:54:16 <moon_> `` mk templates/termwrapperOut//'output=$(command and args goes here) eval "$output"'
22:54:55 <moon_> `` mk templates/termwrapperOut//'output='Command goes here' eval "$output"'
22:55:06 * moon_ is learning new tricks
22:55:18 * moon_ is rather unlike a old dog
22:55:20 <int-e> you're missing the point.
22:55:43 <int-e> also has it occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, HackEgo isn't the best interface for learning shell programming?
22:56:14 <moon_> *is too lazy to install linux*
22:56:26 <moon_> *windows lacks all the commands*
22:56:27 <boily> if one happens to understand all the intricacies of shell programming through HackEgo, that's impressive!
22:56:37 <boily> moon_: shame. ♪ shame. ♪
22:56:44 <zgrep> moon_: Not anymore... https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/commandline/wsl/about
22:57:00 <boily> moon_: Ubuntu you machine! shoo! go and install!
22:57:40 <moon_> does cygwin have the commands?
22:58:10 <boily> install the real deal.
22:58:31 <myname> cygwin has a bash and the relevant gnu tools
22:58:32 <boily> (cygwin has an almost POSIX shell. but you're missing out on the Real Stuff.)
22:58:37 <moon_> hem, i hate windows 10
22:58:58 * boily mapoles moon_ with a FOSS mapole
22:59:59 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6' by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
23:00:00 <int-e> [a FOSS mapole is just as functional as an ordinary mapole but without the good looks ----###]
23:00:18 <shachaf> int-e: that's not a mapole hth
23:00:33 <boily> int-e: your mapole looks suspiciously like a swatter hth
23:01:09 <myname> imperial mapoles look like that
23:01:46 <moon_> i dont have the time to install win 10 right no
23:01:58 <moon_> my pc is annoying and wont let me in the first place
23:03:05 <boily> Embrace the Eightfold Way of the Penguin.
23:04:04 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:04:39 -!- nycs has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:05:45 <moon_> for now, cygwin is the best i can do
23:06:33 <int-e> actually, besides Ubuntu and Gentoo, are there any other Linux distributions named after actual penguins?
23:06:49 <boily> wait. Ubuntu is a species of penguin???
23:07:11 * boily has a Seed of Doubt planted in his soul
23:07:57 <int-e> yeah it's not... what am I mixing up this time...
23:08:15 -!- prooftechnique has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:08:53 <int-e> "Korora is Māori for Little Penguin" ... that wasn't it, but it's cute.
23:10:53 -!- prooftechnique has joined.
23:13:38 <moon_> `fetch http://pastebin.com/raw/BGTV9E93
23:13:39 <HackEgo> 2016-05-03 22:13:32 URL:http://pastebin.com/raw/BGTV9E93 [3761] -> "BGTV9E93" [1]
23:14:19 <moon_> `mv BGTV9E93 templates/esolanginterptemp-ciol-
23:14:20 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `BGTV9E93 templates/esolanginterptemp-ciol-' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
23:14:28 <moon_> `` mv BGTV9E93 templates/esolanginterptemp-ciol-
23:14:51 <moon_> my interpreter's basic code is a good template :P
23:14:58 <fizzie> int-e: http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/linuxone/enterprise-linux-systems/rockhopper.html
23:15:01 <fizzie> int-e: That's a penguin.
23:15:21 <HackEgo> esolanginterptemp-ciol- \ termwrapperOut
23:16:34 <moon_> slightly empty, but of use
23:16:50 <int-e> I think I misremembered and Gentoo was the only one I ever knew.
23:17:00 <fizzie> That's the weirdest name.
23:17:07 <int-e> stupid unreliable brain
23:17:07 <fizzie> Why does it end with a dash.
23:17:33 <moon_> pointing something out
23:18:09 <HackEgo> ^ \ ---##, \ ---▦▦ \ ---▦▦, \ :-( \ !\.´ \ 71ab5gx8 \ 99 \ 99bb \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ cdescs \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ daoyu.c \ dog \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ Eternity \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hia \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ marsha \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \
23:19:24 <fizzie> I would argue the proper name and place would be src/ciol.c, if you wanted to have that source on the bot.
23:19:48 <moon_> `` mk templates/termwrapperOut//'output="Command goes here" eval "$output"'
23:20:03 <moon_> `cat termwrapperOut
23:20:03 <HackEgo> cat: termwrapperOut: No such file or directory
23:20:08 <int-e> wh do you keep doing that..
23:20:10 <moon_> it was broken, i viewed it
23:20:31 <moon_> output=Command was hat it contained
23:20:38 <moon_> `cat templates/termwrapperOut
23:20:40 <HackEgo> output="Command goes here" eval "$output"
23:20:49 <fizzie> It's arguably still "broken".
23:21:43 <moon_> `mk templates/termwrapperOut//output='Command goes here' eval "$output"
23:21:55 <moon_> `cat templates/termwrapperOut
23:21:56 <HackEgo> output='Command goes here' eval "$output"
23:21:57 <int-e> ah. so that's what it's for
23:22:12 <moon_> being very, very evil
23:22:27 <HackEgo> cat "$(find evil -type f | shuf -n1)" | tr '[:lower:]' '[:upper:]'
23:23:07 <moon_> well im getting better at shell scripting in hack ego, right?
23:23:30 <moon_> and shell scripting in general :P
23:23:47 <moon_> `output='ciol' eval "$output"
23:23:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: output='ciol': not found
23:24:44 <moon_> `output=`ciol` eval "$output"
23:24:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: output=`ciol`: not found
23:25:12 <moon_> `output='ciol eval "$output"
23:25:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: output='ciol: not found
23:25:18 <moon_> `output="ciol" eval "$output"
23:25:18 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: output="ciol": not found
23:25:30 <int-e> do you even read what it's saying?
23:25:48 <moon_> *is idiotic and doesnt quite get the output*
23:25:56 <moon_> `output="ciol" eval $output
23:25:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: output="ciol": not found
23:26:09 <moon_> `` output="ciol" eval $output
23:26:10 <int-e> it's trying to execute a command called: output="ciol"
23:26:21 <moon_> `` output="ciol rhi;" eval $output
23:26:38 <moon_> `` output="ciol recho hi;" eval $output
23:27:01 <moon_> `` output="cat bin/evil" eval $output
23:27:21 <int-e> and yet you keep trying the same thing
23:27:53 -!- boily has quit (Quit: LARGE CHICKEN).
23:28:11 <moon_> *needs explainaiton*
23:28:29 <ybden> `` foo=bar echo ${foo}
23:28:32 <int-e> `` cmd='echo Hi!' sh -c 'eval $cmd' # let's have some variation here
23:28:55 <int-e> there's a difference between a=b c and a=b;c
23:29:12 <ybden> `` foo=bar echo $foo
23:29:22 <ybden> int-e: is HackEgo a proper shell interpreter?
23:29:36 <int-e> ybden: $foo is expanded by the shell...
23:29:44 <shachaf> `` foo=bar sh -c 'echo $foo'
23:30:00 <moon_> `mk templates/termwrapperOut//cmd='echo Hi!' sh -c 'eval $cmd' # thx int-e
23:30:12 <moon_> `cat termwrapperout
23:30:13 <ybden> `` export foo=bar; echo ${foo}
23:30:14 <int-e> foo=bar is passed as an environment variable to echo (or would be, if it were not a shell builtin)
23:30:19 <HackEgo> cat: termwrapperout: No such file or directory
23:30:22 <moon_> `mk templates/termwrapperOut//cmd='echo Hi!' sh -c 'eval $cmd' rem thx int-e
23:30:26 <ybden> int-e: I just forgot how variables worked
23:30:30 <moon_> does rem work here?
23:30:36 <moon_> batch like comments
23:30:59 <ybden> moon_: comments are prefixed with hash
23:31:00 <int-e> `` foo=bar; foo=baz sh -c "echo $foo \$foo"
23:31:16 <moon_> `mk templates/termwrapperOut//cmd='echo Hi!' sh -c 'eval $cmd' # thx int-e
23:31:22 <moon_> but it wont show up in the file..
23:32:07 <moon_> it shows up in the file viewer on the site
23:32:14 <moon_> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/df2153221fce/templates/termwrapperOut
23:32:25 <moon_> that templates directory will come in handy some day
23:32:40 <int-e> also, don't thank me for that
23:32:52 <moon_> `mk templates/termwrapperOut//cmd='echo Hi!' sh -c 'eval $cmd'
23:34:41 <int-e> (this is really the wrong way to do it. but it's demonstrating something.)
23:41:23 <fizzie> Oh, it's certainly something.
23:42:23 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
23:42:41 -!- fowl has changed nick to f0wl.
23:42:42 <fizzie> Although I can't quite deduce what that something has to do with the concepts "term", "wrapper" or "out".
23:43:11 -!- f0wl has changed nick to notfowl.
23:43:57 -!- ybden has quit (Quit: leaving).
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23:44:41 <lambdabot> boily asked 11h 53m 25s ago: you pun? are you shachaf in disguise?
23:45:33 <oerjan> @tell boily I'll have you know I punned before shachaf was even born (or so I assume, my memory is a bit vague)
23:45:50 <fizzie> Yeah, that was a bit of a weird question.
23:45:50 <shachaf> oerjan: nothing existed before shachaf was born hth
23:46:03 <oerjan> shachaf: that'd explain it.
23:46:21 * oerjan is not entirely sure how old shachaf is.
23:46:33 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:46:36 <shachaf> approaching dinosaur territory
23:46:44 <fizzie> [REDACTED]'s terrible pun.
23:47:08 <shachaf> let's not get carried away here
23:47:18 <oerjan> i think you're misspelling mammoth or sabretooth tiger, then
23:47:20 <shachaf> no offense to the ultrasaurs of this channel
23:48:21 <oerjan> i'm thinking somewhere between 23-27.
23:48:24 <shachaf> i'll take sabretooth tigre
23:49:30 <shachaf> hm, i joined #haskell almost 10 years ago
23:49:47 <oerjan> and as you know, everyone joins when they're 16.
23:49:58 <moon_> this function wont work, idk why const char * formatBash(char* potxt, char* scripttorun) { char* prostring = "echo "; strcat(prostring,potxt); strcat(prostring,"\n"); strcat(prostring,scripttorun); return *prostring; }
23:50:14 <oerjan> except those who were 16 before irc was invented.
23:50:46 <oerjan> sounds like i was pretty close, then.
23:51:33 <oerjan> fizzie: it's probably related to my latest addition to `? oerjan
23:52:05 <notfowl> You return a char as const char* and use a static string as mutable char* it should be const char*
23:52:13 <oerjan> (which also prompted me making `? overlord)
23:52:45 <moon_> its complaining of conflicting typues
23:53:12 <fizzie> "return *prostring" tries to return a single char.
23:53:25 <fizzie> The one prostring points at.
23:53:43 <oerjan> . o O ( has fizzie made a diagram of wisdom/ editors yet )
23:54:09 <fizzie> oerjan: An unforgivable lapse. No, I haven't.
23:54:16 <izabera> recursive book cover in harry potter 5 http://i.imgur.com/aTxkJ7a.jpg
23:54:34 <shachaf> looks corecursive to me hth
23:54:48 <oerjan> `` \? lystrosaur # obviously by current age standards, i must be this.
23:54:50 <HackEgo> The lystrosaurs were an ancient genus of evil reptiles who successfully took over the world in the early Triassic.
23:56:14 <fizzie> The illustrious lystrosaurs.
23:56:15 <shachaf> oerjan: your puns are typically about one sixth of triassic hth
23:56:30 <hppavilion[1]> I seem to be formulating an Esolang Development Strategy
23:57:39 <oerjan> <moon_> its complaining of conflicting typues <-- conflicting typos are indeed insidious
23:58:37 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, it's where you take two fairly different languages that share some similarities
23:58:57 <hppavilion[1]> Find a way to generalize those similarities in one of the languages (e.g. functions -> coroutines)
23:59:00 <moon_> *trys to put brainfuck in c, gets CIOL*
23:59:02 <hppavilion[1]> Then apply the generalization to the other language
23:59:14 <moon_> *wants to go deeper*
23:59:30 <int-e> I think "formatBash" is a perfect name for a function that crashes the program.
00:00:10 <HackEgo> esolanginterptemp-ciol- \ termwrapperOut
00:00:14 <hppavilion[1]> So, for example, Generational Haskell comes from transplanting generators (semicoroutines) (something similar to functions) into Haskell (which is purely-functional)
00:00:40 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: WHAT?!
00:00:52 <HackEgo> moon_ moon_ moon_ moon_ moon_ moon_ moon_ moon_ moon_ moon_ moon_ moon_ moon_
00:00:56 <shachaf> oerjan: what, not even a swat?
00:01:01 <hppavilion[1]> (Hm, I just realized that HackEgo responses will still come through when used by someone you've blocked)
00:01:13 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: why would you extend a language by something the language can already express fairly well...
00:01:32 <oerjan> shachaf: i could make no sense of it.
00:01:34 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Also, you can generalize the transplanted change into something new
00:02:18 <shachaf> oerjan: i guess it applies to my own puns too in that case
00:02:18 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: For example, a generator in Haskell- by my understanding- would be like a function together with a queue. When the generator is called, its return values (plural) are enqueued- in order- into the queue
00:02:32 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,...
00:02:47 <hppavilion[1]> Then the head of the queue is popped and returned to the caller
00:02:55 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: Usually people just use a list.
00:03:01 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: I may be misunderstanding generators, though I think that's an iterator
00:03:14 <shachaf> Maybe you should learn Haskell.
00:03:59 <shachaf> oerjan: you're not just going to let that pun slide off the screen are you
00:04:24 <int-e> > unfoldr (\x -> Just (x, x+3)) 2
00:04:25 <lambdabot> [2,5,8,11,14,17,20,23,26,29,32,35,38,41,44,47,50,53,56,59,62,65,68,71,74,77,...
00:04:46 <int-e> there, have some "internal state"
00:05:04 <shachaf> int-e: what if i want side effects hth
00:05:28 <int-e> shachaf: then Haskell isn't for you... or you are in iteratee territory.
00:05:31 <shachaf> oerjan: the one you didn't make sense of
00:06:01 <oerjan> my #esoteric window is only 80 x 21, anyway.
00:06:03 <int-e> though perhaps on this channel I should just suggest inlinePerformIO
00:06:32 <hppavilion[1]> <shachaf> oerjan: your puns are typically about one sixth of triassic hth
00:06:48 <int-e> ... I was going to say it should be 80x24 ... but yeah. 80x21 makes sense.
00:06:51 <oerjan> it had slid off before you even started complaining
00:07:13 <oerjan> int-e: it's sharing vertical space with ##nomic.
00:07:25 <int-e> oerjan: okay. didn't expect that.
00:07:40 <int-e> oerjan: I expected a 24 lines (standard) xterm with irssi :P
00:07:41 <oerjan> (which only gets 12 lines, being usually silent.)
00:08:07 <int-e> (-title -status -input)
00:08:15 <oerjan> int-e: it's a max height window but a rather large font.
00:08:35 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: you're making assumptions
00:08:39 <oerjan> and a rather not tall laptop screen
00:08:50 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: irssi inside tmux
00:09:00 <oerjan> but tmux only takes one line
00:09:27 <fizzie> It's like screen, only different.
00:09:55 <moon_> ` mk quines/ciol// +jrR+RjRr+++++[-p++++P]p_J----[-P+++p]P-oRJ*done;J
00:10:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
00:10:03 <shachaf> oerjan: the pun is "halfassic" hth
00:10:09 <moon_> ` mk quines/ciol//+jrR+RjRr+++++[-p++++P]p_J----[-P+++p]P-oRJ*done;J
00:10:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
00:10:17 <moon_> `mk quines/ciol//+jrR+RjRr+++++[-p++++P]p_J----[-P+++p]P-oRJ*done;J
00:10:21 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: when i tried screen it had trouble with unicode and someone suggested tmux was better
00:10:35 <HackEgo> +jrR+RjRr+++++[-p++++P]p_J----[-P+++p]P-oRJ*done;J
00:10:37 <shachaf> tmux has trouble with unicode too
00:11:24 <fizzie> AIUI, screen has a long history of having trouble with Unicode going beyond the BMP. (Is that over now?)
00:11:33 <shachaf> fizzie: I don't think that's over.
00:11:43 <HackEgo> [U+4EA8 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-4EA8]
00:11:44 <shachaf> Last I heard they still didn't support four-byte UTF-8 sequences.
00:12:05 <fizzie> I never know whether to blame screen or something else when that doesn't work.
00:12:10 <zzo38> I am making the UTCE specification more now; I am now writing the part about the Infocom character graphics set.
00:12:14 <HackEgo> cat "$(find evil -type f | shuf -n1)" | tr '[:lower:]' '[:upper:]'
00:12:33 <shachaf> My complaint is that I have one tmux session that has two or three clients connected to it at the same time.
00:12:44 <shachaf> I'm only using one of those clients at a time, but I don't want to disconnect the others.
00:12:48 <moon_> scuse me, please dont interupt meat the sec
00:13:03 <shachaf> But tmux always chooses the smallest one for the size of the terminal.
00:13:21 <HackEgo> substructural typing/Not to be confused with structural subtyping.
00:13:30 <moon_> i forgot about that
00:13:33 <shachaf> `rm wisdom/substructural typing
00:13:36 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `advice': Is a directory
00:13:58 <moon_> hppavilion[1]: `wisdom
00:14:17 <fizzie> I got hung up on the concept of interrupt meat.
00:14:22 <int-e> `` rm canary; list
00:14:39 <fizzie> No, no, meat was better.
00:14:39 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] Phantom_Hoover int-e b_jonas boily a`a`a`a`jo7as a`a`a`a`jo8as a`a`a`a`jo3as a`a`a`a`jo6as a`a`a`a`jo5as a`a`a`a`jo4as a`a`a`a`jo2as a`a`a`a`jo1as a`a`a`a`jonas0 a`a`a`a lambdabot chicken_jonas myname
00:14:49 <hppavilion[1]> moon_: To be fair, `wisdom is more definitions whereas `advice could be stuff to do
00:14:51 <int-e> still no new entries.
00:15:16 <HackEgo> mkdir: cannot create directory `advice': File exists
00:15:26 <moon_> lol but you approved
00:15:59 <moon_> who thinks we could have `advice?
00:16:16 <hppavilion[1]> moon_: I'm not qualified to approve because I love new `s
00:16:21 <fizzie> Could and should are two very different things.
00:16:27 <HackEgo> 1:5/And fungot called the cloud internet, and the hard drive *n?x. And the DNS and the server were upon the first day.
00:16:35 <shachaf> I think HackEgo could and shouldn't have `advice as proposed.
00:16:40 <HackEgo> 1:2/And #esoteric was without denizens, and empty; and the order was on the face of the PDP-8. And the software of fungot moved upon the face of the scrollback.
00:17:09 <HackEgo> F="$(find wisdom -name "*$(echo "$1" | lowercase)*" -type f | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}/" | rnooodl; cat "$F" | rnooodl
00:17:17 <moon_> so, make it or not
00:17:45 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's#/"#//"#' bin/wisdom
00:17:55 <shachaf> If you didn't do anything shachaf vetoed, you wouldn't have a lot of fun.
00:18:03 <shachaf> It comes with being a demisaur.
00:18:03 <hppavilion[1]> moon_: The only person here with higher authority than shachaf is fungot iirc
00:18:04 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: but are the problems only when connecting?' the closest thing to this we have in scheme, but can't
00:18:27 <zzo38> Now the document of UTCE assigns the codes for all DEC Technical characters and all Infocom character graphics, as well as VT100 character graphics, PC character set, Russian alphabets, Apple MouseText, and partially single-wide katakana.
00:19:00 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Why is it not tabbed? <-- there are other windows not shown
00:19:04 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
00:19:09 <fungot> Selected style: enron (subset of the Enron email dataset)
00:19:20 <shachaf> fungot: looking for a good accountant, can you help
00:19:21 <fungot> shachaf: market short to them to you on the same as you guys...darlens should probably be march 31 and enron employees on the list that we found the right formula that would not have a second.
00:19:39 <fizzie> That thing didn't turn out none too good.
00:19:40 <zzo38> I also have to add PETSCII.
00:20:00 <HackEgo> moon_ gamemanj oerjan oerjan elliott oerjan ais523 ais523 FreeFull shachaf shachaf shachaf
00:21:03 <moon_> fungot: hat do you think of the idea of 'advice
00:21:03 <fungot> moon_: second, we respect the minimum the commission ( " commission"
00:21:12 <int-e> . o O ( mk evil/101//Smile at a stranger. )
00:22:00 <oerjan> moon_: stop making arbitrary top level directories in HackEgo.
00:22:23 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: The international hub of solid matrices | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Istanbul (not Konstantiniyye (not Constantinopolis/Constantinople (not Byzantium (not Byzantion)))).
00:22:54 <oerjan> <shachaf> `rm wisdom/substructural typing <-- WHAT
00:23:15 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/substructural\ typing | grep summary?
00:23:21 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/substructural\ typing | grep summary:
00:23:26 <HackEgo> summary: <shachaf> >wisdom/\'substructural typing\' echo Not to be confused with structural subtyping.
00:23:44 <shachaf> oerjan: if you think it should exist feel free to readd it hth
00:24:17 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Personally, I don't think `wisdom should have "not to be confused with"s that aren't followed by a body
00:24:23 <HackEgo> Not to be confused with substructural typing.
00:26:57 <fizzie> shachaf: I keep trying to type Dremel into a PostgreSQL client at home.
00:27:22 <shachaf> fizzie: I wish I could use Dremel. :-(
00:28:29 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/OUMI <- a rough approximation of the top-50 most referred wisdom entries, in case you want to know what definitely needs keeping.
00:29:15 <shachaf> Wait, why am I so high up?
00:29:24 <fizzie> People are dying to know things about you.
00:29:55 <shachaf> `? misspellings of crosant
00:29:56 <HackEgo> misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
00:30:01 <zzo38> Keep everyone unless you run out
00:30:08 <HackEgo> the Toe of Harriness's Enclosure
00:30:09 <int-e> `` cd wisdom; echo *con*
00:30:20 <HackEgo> context is a word with many meanings, depending on where it is used.
00:30:27 <int-e> `? conspirabiology
00:30:28 <HackEgo> conspirabiology is where moth colourings form a dot matrix display to send you subliminal messages.
00:31:13 <fizzie> shachaf: FWIW, the person with the most `? shachafs is shachaf. (With a count of 27, a sizeable margin from oerjan's 7.)
00:31:52 <moon_> http://i.stack.imgur.com/uYqPi.png found this while surfing
00:37:15 <int-e> `` perl -e "print \"not arguing with that \"x22"
00:37:17 <HackEgo> not arguing with that not arguing with that not arguing with that not arguing with that not arguing with that not arguing with that not arguing with that not arguing with that not arguing with that not arguing with that not arguing with that not arguing with that not arguing with that not arguing with that not arguing with that not arguing with tha
00:37:38 <lambdabot> Axman6 says: Haskell is easy, you just apply functions to arguments, and then you apply them to other arguments. Axman6's girlfriend: I don't like conflict
00:37:44 <lambdabot> mike-burns says: Oh good, a semantic argument. Goodnight.
00:37:46 <oerjan> int-e: you don't need `` for perl -e hth
00:37:50 <lambdabot> ghc says: Illegal unlifted type argument
00:37:51 <lambdabot> Jafet says: unsafeCoerce takes any argument. AND IT WINS THAT ARGUMENT.
00:37:51 <lambdabot> ghc says: On Alpha, I can only handle 4 non-floating-point arguments to foreign export dynamic
00:38:54 <HackEgo> Can't open perl script "print 1": No such file or directory
00:39:06 <int-e> perl's just too magical.
00:40:35 <int-e> . o O ( dwim/ITYM gwim, guess what I mean. )
00:41:05 <HackEgo> File "<string>", line 1 \ print(1) \ ^ \ IndentationError: unexpected indent
00:41:28 <oerjan> `` python -c 'print(1)'
00:42:01 <zzo38> There is room for additional non-JIS double-wide characters in UTCE, since banks 0xA0 and 0xFF are not used.
00:42:47 <zzo38> Also character codes 0x80 to 0xA0 and character code 0xFF are not used within any double-wide bank so far.
00:42:56 <HackEgo> zzo38 is not actually the next version of fungot, much as it may seem.
00:44:01 <moon_> best 404 error page ever: odu.org/
00:44:12 <moon_> *https://www-s.acm.illinois.edu/siggraph/eoh_projects/eoh2002.html
00:45:19 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> Moon_: Mhelloon_. what with the snail cannon? <-- i refused to let em use the swatter, so e had to shell out for a personal weapon
00:45:49 <fizzie> That's a really old 404 joke, I really don't think acm.illinois.edu is where it originated.
00:45:59 <oerjan> that line feels so empty without a hth
00:46:27 <shachaf> is hth your personal weapon
00:46:50 <FireFly> and does it have some documentation?
00:46:54 <oerjan> shachaf: didn't you use it first
00:47:15 <shachaf> i think i got hth from you
00:47:44 <fizzie> http://motherboard.vice.com/read/probably-the-most-uncanny-404-page "Cole Gleason, chair of ACM@UIUC, tells me that the 404 page dates back at least to 2003. It's not known who wrote it initially." that's a good internet archeology spelunking expedition subject for someone.
00:47:45 <zzo38> FireFly: This document http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/utce but it is incomplete
00:48:04 <shachaf> FireFly: maybe you should go work with fizzie
00:48:11 <lambdabot> Local time for fizzie is Wed May 4 00:48:10 2016
00:48:41 <oerjan> fizzie: hi shachaf and i can't agree who used hth first twh
00:48:47 -!- Warrigal has changed nick to tswett.
00:50:59 <int-e> at least 2001: http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=103;t=000053
00:51:12 <fizzie> oerjan: Well, I mean, my logs aren't any sort of authoritative source, but at least based on a rough search, the first #esoteric occurrence would be 2008-04-22 10:37:29 <fizzie> ITYM "olkoslept" HTH HAND.
00:51:38 <oerjan> shachaf: well surprise out of left field, there
00:52:03 <shachaf> oerjan: i might still have gotten it from you
00:52:03 <oerjan> fizzie: also itym "okloslept"
00:52:17 <int-e> (pretty sure that www.scintilla.utwente.nl site is where I saw it first)
00:52:26 <shachaf> oerjan: some people think "olkoslept" is correct
00:52:32 <shachaf> we should hold an oklopoll
00:53:02 <fizzie> oerjan: The second occurrence in my logs is 2008-08-10 12:32:42 <fizzie> Mostly used in the construction "ITYM 'foo' HTH HAND". -- I think I was explaining something -- and then a gap of almost two years, followed by four <oerjan> comments in 2010 that use the now-familiar lowercase end-of-sentence hth.
00:53:38 <shachaf> four <oerjan> comments in 2010 that use the now-familiar lowercase end-of-sentence?
00:53:58 <oerjan> shachaf: try putting "<oerjan>" in quotes
00:54:08 <shachaf> the now-familiar lowercase end-of-sentence what?
00:54:16 <fizzie> Try putting the hth in quotes too hth
00:54:32 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
00:54:53 <fizzie> (The shachaf hth use starts from 2012-11-20 onwards.)
00:55:07 <shachaf> elliott got mad at me for using hth in #haskell and elsewhere
00:55:26 <shachaf> also elliott probably got mad at me for other things
00:57:56 <FireFly> can we get a plot of hth over time too?
00:58:04 <fizzie> I think I've done that.
00:59:01 <fizzie> I will attempt to get some sort of a sketch, assuming I can recall what the PostgreSQLese is for strftime_usec.
01:00:59 <fizzie> FireFly: http://sprunge.us/XhiZ there's some per-month counts.
01:02:37 <int-e> `` grep mad wisdom/elliott
01:03:45 <FireFly> http://xen.firefly.nu/up/2016-05-04_020336.png hm
01:03:50 <int-e> so it's a summer thing... buzzing mosquitos, chirping cicadas, hthing people
01:04:22 <int-e> (I was looking at 2013)
01:04:46 <fizzie> "It was the summer of '13", like the song goes.
01:05:15 <FireFly> zzo38: interesting encoding
01:06:45 <oerjan> <shachaf> `olist 1035 <-- huh i was thinking the sound might do that but not that it might _help_ them.
01:07:47 <shachaf> oerjan: I don't think that's a sound. I would guess that it's just a lake.
01:08:55 * oerjan hits shachaf with the saucepan ===\__/
01:09:49 <moon_> `mk bin/ciolf//file=$1 data=$(cat "$file") sh -c "ciol $data"
01:10:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/ciolf: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/ciolf: cannot execute: Permission denied
01:10:14 <moon_> `mkx bin/ciolf//file=$1 data=$(cat "$file") sh -c "ciol $data"
01:10:22 <HackEgo> cat: quine/ciol: Not a directory \ Segmentation fault
01:10:48 <HackEgo> ^ \ :-( \ !\.´ \ 71ab5gx8 \ 99 \ 99bb \ advice \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ cdescs \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ daoyu.c \ dog \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ Eternity \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hia \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ marsha \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ ReUariBw \ share
01:11:03 <moon_> `ciolf quines/ciol
01:12:15 <oerjan> `mkx bin/ciolf//ciol "$(cat "$1")"
01:12:27 <HackEgo> +jrR+RjRr+++++[-p++++P]p_J----[-P+++p]P-oRJ*done;J
01:14:00 <HackEgo> brainfuck.fu \ egobot.tar.xz \ emmental.hs \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ fizziecoin.jpg \ fueue.c \ grph.c \ ploki \ ploki-0.6.5.1.tar.bz2 \ u8tbl.c \ ul.emm
01:14:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
01:14:54 <moon_> `mk src/ciol/helloworld.ciol//rHello, World!;
01:15:08 <moon_> `ciolf src/ciol/helloworld.ciol
01:16:06 <moon_> `mkx bin/bff//bf "$(cat "$1")"
01:16:17 <oerjan> iirc there's an even shorter way than using cat but i always get confused about it.
01:16:26 <moon_> `bff src/brainfuck.fu
01:17:08 <moon_> `` echo efzdfcvfdesfzds | bff src/brainfuck.fu
01:17:15 <oerjan> shachaf: no, it needs to be an argument...
01:17:43 <shachaf> I don't remember the exact syntax.
01:17:47 <shachaf> `` echo "$(< wisdom/oerjan)"
01:17:50 <oerjan> moon_: that's not a brainfuck program but a brainfuck interpreter in fueue
01:17:53 <HackEgo> Your infamous mysterious evil cackling overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
01:18:23 <moon_> src needs some organization
01:18:39 <shachaf> Why would you organize by language?
01:18:44 <oerjan> moon_: it wasn't big enough for that.
01:19:47 <moon_> a file based command for bf and ciol is basically a good thing
01:21:03 <moon_> shachaf: what do you think?
01:21:31 <moon_> about ciolf and bff
01:21:40 <moon_> the file based scripts for ciol and bf
01:22:35 <moon_> `ciolf src/ciol/helloworld.ciol
01:23:29 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ \ ! \ ? \ ?? \ ¿ \ ' \ @ \ * \ ؟ \ \ \ \ 1492 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 5quote \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ aglist \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ append \ arienvenido \ as86 \ aseen \ asm \ autowelcome \ bardsworthlist \ before \ benvenuto \ bf \ bff \ bienvenido \ bienvenue \ blessyou \ bookof
01:24:32 <oerjan> the problem is that's not very modular :(
01:25:03 <oerjan> also i'm not sure it didn't already exist somewhere. HackEgo has a lot of cruft.
01:25:23 <moon_> not very modular ho
01:25:36 <oerjan> moon_: making a new command for every old one.
01:26:40 <moon_> gfd`mkx bin/genf//$2 "$(cat "$1")" something that would ork like this (altho this is invalid, think about the $2) would work for that
01:26:53 <FireFly> shachaf: huh. is that <filename behaviour POSIX, or just a bash extension?
01:27:08 <oerjan> there's also the whole interps/ stuff which also contains brainfuck interpreters, although not that easily used on a filename iirc
01:27:52 <oerjan> (interps/ basically is a half-assed port of half of EgoBot's features)
01:28:10 <FireFly> oerjan: I don't understand the 'new command' point
01:28:11 <fizzie> I'm sure it's at least 2.25 asses.
01:28:36 <moon_> you-can-only-run-this-once is not needed
01:28:41 <moon_> it deleted bin's content
01:28:46 <moon_> `rm bin/you-can-only-run-this-once
01:28:50 <oerjan> FireFly: making both ciolf and bff to add the same feature to ciol and bf
01:29:16 <FireFly> right, a f command that wraps the functionality would be more useful
01:29:17 <oerjan> `culprits bin/you-can-only-run-this-once
01:29:23 <HackEgo> moon_ tswett tswett tswett
01:29:39 <moon_> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/2b92018dd204/bin/you-can-only-run-this-once
01:30:13 <moon_> why dont e make one then firefly?
01:30:40 <FireFly> I'd probably get it wrong anyway
01:31:07 <oerjan> i'm mostly wondering what to call it.
01:31:24 <moon_> oer, you need to get onto tswett for that one :P
01:32:44 <tswett> So what are we getting on about?
01:32:50 <hppavilion[1]> moon_: I think e is supposed to be used as a third person pronoun
01:33:01 <moon_> [20:29] <oerjan> `culprits bin/you-can-only-run-this-once [20:29] <HackEgo> moon_ tswett tswett tswett [20:29] <moon_> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/2b92018dd204/bin/you-can-only-run-this-once
01:33:12 <FireFly> matches the C file convention
01:33:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: you-can-only-run-this-once: not found
01:33:28 <moon_> e dont need you wiping the bin folder
01:33:44 <oerjan> and then the question of whether it should work as `f or `` f
01:33:59 <tswett> `run cat '#!/bin/rm' > bin/you-can-only-run-this-once; chmod +x you-can-only-run-this-once
01:34:03 <HackEgo> cat: #!/bin/rm: No such file or directory \ chmod: cannot access `you-can-only-run-this-once': No such file or directory
01:34:17 <tswett> `run echo '#!/bin/rm' > bin/you-can-only-run-this-once; chmod +x you-can-only-run-this-once
01:34:20 <HackEgo> chmod: cannot access `you-can-only-run-this-once': No such file or directory
01:34:30 <tswett> `run chmod +x bin/you-can-only-run-this-once
01:34:34 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: try it now!
01:34:40 <oerjan> tswett isn't up to date on the latest `mkx developments
01:34:43 <HackEgo> ^ \ :-( \ !\.´ \ 71ab5gx8 \ 99 \ 99bb \ advice \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ cdescs \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ daoyu.c \ dog \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ Eternity \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hia \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ marsha \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ ReUariBw \ share
01:34:49 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ \ ! \ ? \ ?? \ ¿ \ ' \ @ \ * \ ؟ \ \ \ \ 1492 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 5quote \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ aglist \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ append \ arienvenido \ as86 \ aseen \ asm \ autowelcome \ bardsworthlist \ before \ benvenuto \ bf \ bff \ bienvenido \ bienvenue \ blessyou \ bookof
01:34:49 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: and again!
01:34:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: you-can-only-run-this-once: not found
01:35:00 <moon_> bin was deleted -.-
01:35:14 <HackEgo> monad//Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
01:35:16 <tswett> moon_: you mean... bin/bin?
01:35:24 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: A better challenge is you-can-only-run-this-twice
01:35:30 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin bin: No such file or directory
01:35:35 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: that's an interesting one.
01:35:37 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/bin: No such file or directory
01:35:41 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ \ ! \ ? \ ?? \ ¿ \ ' \ @ \ * \ ؟ \ \ \ \ 1492 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 5quote \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ aglist \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ append \ arienvenido \ as86 \ aseen \ asm \ autowelcome \ bardsworthlist \ before \ benvenuto \ bf \ bff \ bienvenido \ bienvenue \ blessyou \ bookof
01:35:42 <fizzie> "Run file if it exists, otherwise interpret as code" is a heuristic that rarely goes wrong. And doesn't need extra commands. Maybe with a disambiguation -e argument for those rare cases.
01:35:45 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: After that, make you-can-only-run-this-pice
01:36:13 <moon_> oh god quantum uncertainity has arrived
01:36:31 <moon_> pi times would need a quantum cpu
01:36:42 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: 3 times definitely, then the remaining 0.14159... times are left up to implementation
01:36:57 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: The winner is determined by awesomeness of implementation behavior
01:37:12 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) != "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
01:37:37 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
01:37:46 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 80 Jan 1 00:05 bin/1492 \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 79 Dec 9 04:12 bin/2014 \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 80 Dec 31 20:32 bin/2015 \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 79 Jan 1 18:00 bin/2016 \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 79 Jan 1 18:00 bin/2017
01:38:18 <moon_> `ciolf src/ciol/helloworld.ciol
01:38:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: main: not found
01:38:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: maim: not found
01:38:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: maim: not found
01:39:06 <moon_> `mk bin/maim// echo $1 has been badly maimed!
01:39:11 <moon_> `maim hppavilion[1]
01:39:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/maim: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/maim: cannot execute: Permission denied
01:39:20 <moon_> `mkx bin/maim// echo $1 has been badly maimed!
01:39:24 <moon_> `maim hppavilion[1]
01:39:25 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] has been badly maimed!
01:39:40 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ shuf -n 1 share/8ballreplies
01:40:55 <hppavilion[1]> `mkx bin/maim//shuf -n 1 share/maimery | sed "s/\$target/$1"
01:41:06 <hppavilion[1]> `mkx bin/maim//shuf -n 1 jnk/maimery | sed "s/\$target/$1"
01:41:13 <moon_> `mkx bin/uristfail//echo urist was killed in a goblin seige attempting to retreive a spare sock #temportary
01:41:21 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: no jnk/
01:41:31 <hppavilion[1]> `mkx bin/maim//shuf -n 1 share/maimery | sed "s/\$target/$1"
01:41:35 -!- tswett_ has joined.
01:41:37 <HackEgo> urist was killed in a goblin seige attempting to retreive a spare sock
01:41:41 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
01:41:52 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 16: unterminated `s' command
01:41:53 <tswett_> `echo <CTCP>ACTION does something<CTCP>
01:42:00 <hppavilion[1]> `mkx bin/maim//shuf -n 1 share/maimery | sed "s/\$target/$1/"
01:42:05 <tswett> Well, that didn't work.
01:42:07 <HackEgo> oerjan has been badly maimed!
01:42:55 <moon_> make a command to add new maimery hppavilion[1]
01:43:02 <HackEgo> U+0001 <control> \ UTF-8: 01 UTF-16BE: 0001 Decimal:  \ . \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral)
01:43:07 * oerjan chants I BEFORE E at moon_
01:43:29 <fizzie> `f ciol src/ciol/helloworld.ciol
01:43:31 <fizzie> It's the minimum viable implementation of 'f', but it's there.
01:44:17 <moon_> fizzie: ${1%% *} "$(< ${1#* })" wtf does that mean?!
01:44:28 <oerjan> <tswett> Well, that didn't work. <-- yeah ACTIONs were disabled when HackEgo added botloop protection.
01:45:05 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/f: line 1: ${1#* }: ambiguous redirect
01:45:29 <moon_> `f ciol src/ciol/helloworld.ciol
01:45:40 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/f: line 1: ciol: No such file or directory
01:45:44 <HackEgo> HackEgo has been badly maimed!
01:45:51 <HackEgo> Now where did I leave my jumper cables...
01:46:11 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/append: line 1: : No such file or directory
01:46:18 <moon_> anything similar to append?
01:46:33 -!- tswett_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:46:34 <fizzie> I did say it was the minimum viable. Don't expect it to do anything reasonable if you don't actually give it both a command and a file.
01:48:28 <moon_> `maim hppavilion[1]
01:48:29 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] has been badly maimed!
01:48:31 <fizzie> And ${1%% *} "$(< ${1#* })" just maps `f foo bar -> foo "$(< bar)"
01:48:32 <moon_> `maim hppavilion[1]
01:48:35 <moon_> `maim hppavilion[1]
01:48:38 <moon_> `maim hppavilion[1]
01:48:39 <HackEgo> Now where did I leave my jumper cables...
01:48:40 <moon_> `maim hppavilion[1]
01:48:43 <moon_> `maim hppavilion[1]
01:48:46 <moon_> `maim hppavilion[1]
01:48:47 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] has been badly maimed!
01:48:49 <moon_> `maim hppavilion[1]
01:48:49 <HackEgo> *grumbles something about a broken hacksaw*
01:48:53 <moon_> `maim hppavilion[1]
01:49:01 <HackEgo> just lost an arm! \ just lost an leg! \ just got fried by jumpercables! \ just melted off their fingers! \ just froze off their fingers!
01:49:06 <HackEgo> *grumbles something about a broken hacksaw*
01:49:14 <HackEgo> test has been badly maimed!
01:49:26 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: might want to chop off final spaces
01:49:47 <oerjan> some other commands had trouble with that and tab expanding nicks
01:50:12 <HackEgo> $target has been badly maimed! \ *draws their sword* \ I'll get the bears \ *sigh* \ Now where did I leave my jumper cables... \ *grumbles something about a broken hacksaw* \ just lost an arm! \ just lost an arm! just lost an leg! just got fried by jumpercables! just melted off their fingers! just froze off their fingers! \ just lost an leg!
01:51:01 <HackEgo> $target has been badly maimed! \ \ *draws their sword* \ I'll get the bears \ *sigh* \ Now where did I leave my jumper cables... \ *grumbles something about a broken hacksaw* \ just lost an arm! \ \ just lost an arm! \ just lost an leg! just got fried by jumpercables! just melted off their fingers! just froze off their fingers! \ just lost an
01:51:14 <HackEgo> just got fried by jumpercables!
01:51:27 <moon_> i put $target before that
01:51:33 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 15: unterminated `s' command
01:51:44 <HackEgo> $target has been badly maimed! \ \ *draws their sword* \ I'll get the bears \ *sigh* \ Now where did I leave my jumper cables... \ *grumbles something about a broken hacksaw* \ just lost an arm! \ \ just lost an arm! \ just lost an leg! just got fried by jumpercables! just melted off their fingers! just froze off their fingers! \ just lost an
01:51:58 <oerjan> `` sed -i '7,$s/^ */$target /' share/maimery
01:52:19 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: except what you did first broke it
01:52:36 <HackEgo> oerjan has been badly maimed!
01:52:40 <oerjan> maybe it was already done
01:52:55 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: as i said, make it strip final space
01:53:09 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] just melted off their fingers!
01:53:41 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] just melted off their fingers!
01:53:44 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] just melted off their fingers!
01:53:53 <HackEgo> $target has been badly maimed! \ \ *draws their sword* \ I'll get the bears \ *sigh* \ Now where did I leave my jumper cables... \ $target *grumbles something about a broken hacksaw* \ $target just lost an arm! \ $target \ $target just lost an arm! \ $target just lost an leg! just got fried by jumpercables! just melted off their fingers! just
01:54:16 <HackEgo> \ $target has been badly maimed! \ \ \ \ *draws their sword* \ \ I'll get the bears \ \ *sigh* \ \ Now where did I leave my jumper cables... \ \ $target *grumbles something about a broken hacksaw* \ \ $target just lost an arm! \ \ $target \ \ $target just lost an arm! \ \ $target just lost an leg! just got fried by jumpercables! jus
01:54:43 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: oh i see the problem. echo `cat bin/maimery` rejoins the lines in bin/maimery with spaces before echoing them. you wanted just cat.
01:55:05 <moon_> https://catmacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/cat-halp-1-1.jpg
02:00:02 <oerjan> also this became a _lot_ harder to fix because you kept (including moon_) kept using HackEgo after the error happened.
02:00:55 <oerjan> let me see. i think a temporary file is in order.
02:01:01 <HackEgo> \ $target has been badly maimed! \ \ \ \ *draws their sword* \ \ I'll get the bears \ \ *sigh* \ \ Now where did I leave my jumper cables... \ \ $target *grumbles something about a broken hacksaw* \ \ $target just lost an arm! \ \ $target \ \ $target just lost an arm! \ \ $target just lost an leg! just got fried by jumpercables! jus
02:02:02 <oerjan> `` grep . share/maimery >/tmp/1; mv /tmp/1 share/maimery
02:02:09 <HackEgo> $target has been badly maimed! \ *draws their sword* \ I'll get the bears \ *sigh* \ Now where did I leave my jumper cables... \ $target *grumbles something about a broken hacksaw* \ $target just lost an arm! \ $target \ $target just lost an arm! \ $target just lost an leg! just got fried by jumpercables! just melted off their fingers! just fro
02:02:38 -!- moon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
02:03:40 <oerjan> `` sed -i '6s/[^ ]* //;8d;10s/! just/!\n just/g' share/maimery
02:03:47 <HackEgo> $target has been badly maimed! \ *draws their sword* \ I'll get the bears \ *sigh* \ Now where did I leave my jumper cables... \ *grumbles something about a broken hacksaw* \ $target just lost an arm! \ $target just lost an arm! \ $target just lost an leg! \ just got fried by jumpercables! \ just melted off their fingers! \ just froze off the
02:04:11 <HackEgo> just melted off their fingers! \ just froze off their fingers! \ $target just lost an leg! \ $target \ $target just got fried by jumpercables! \ $target \ $target just froze off their fingers! \ $target \ $target just melted off their fingers! \ $target
02:04:57 <oerjan> `` grep ' [^ ]' share/maimery >/tmp/1; mv /tmp/1 share/maimery
02:05:09 <HackEgo> $target just lost an arm! \ $target just lost an arm! \ $target just lost an leg! \ just got fried by jumpercables! \ just melted off their fingers! \ just froze off their fingers! \ $target just lost an leg! \ $target just got fried by jumpercables! \ $target just froze off their fingers! \ $target just melted off their fingers!
02:05:23 -!- Moon_ has joined.
02:06:24 <oerjan> `` sed -i '7,$s/^ *[^$]/$target /' share/maimery
02:06:39 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/share/maimery
02:06:48 <Moon_> Lol this is still going?
02:07:19 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
02:07:21 <HackEgo> $target just lost an arm! \ $target just lost an arm! \ $target just lost an leg! \ just got fried by jumpercables! \ just melted off their fingers! \ just froze off their fingers! \ $target just lost an leg! \ $target just got fried by jumpercables! \ $target just froze off their fingers! \ $target just melted off their fingers!
02:08:04 <oerjan> `` sed -i '7,$s/^ *\([^$ ]\)/$target \1/' share/maimery
02:08:35 <HackEgo> cat: usercmds: No such file or directory
02:08:48 <Moon_> `cat shared/usercmds
02:08:49 <HackEgo> cat: shared/usercmds: No such file or directory
02:09:05 <Moon_> `cat share/usercmds
02:09:06 <HackEgo> f: give the data from a file as the argument to a command like bf \ bf: simple brainfuck intepreter, bf brainfuck code
02:09:25 <oerjan> `` sed -i '7,11d' share/maimery
02:10:25 <oerjan> `` sed -i '7s/an/a/' share/maimery
02:11:15 <oerjan> obviously, i should have just used vim and `fetch.
02:12:15 -!- Cale has joined.
02:12:21 -!- boily has joined.
02:13:08 <Cale> I was told to bring my printf library here :D
02:13:10 <HackEgo> Cale: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
02:13:33 <coppro> took you long enough to get here!
02:13:54 <coppro> everyone from #haskell seems to make it here eventually
02:14:08 <Cale> Well, I have too many channels open
02:14:18 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2h 28m 45s ago: I'll have you know I punned before shachaf was even born (or so I assume, my memory is a bit vague)
02:14:18 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 28m 58s ago: <boily> Moon_: Mhelloon_. what with the snail cannon? <-- i refused to let em use the swatter, so e had to shell out for a personal weapon
02:14:19 <Cale> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/category-printf-0.1.0.0
02:14:47 * boily lightly mapoles oerjan with one hand.
02:14:47 <Cale> (that's the version with the docs already in place but it has screwy upper bounds, so the new version fixes that)
02:15:33 <Cale> anyway, I use the cokleisli category for the comonad of functions out of a monoid m to get an oddly-practical library for typed printf format specifications
02:15:49 <Cale> and it's basically a typed stack programming language
02:15:57 <Cale> *Main> :t printfLn (dup . s . " plus " . swap . dup . s . " equals " . apply2 (+) . s)
02:15:57 <Cale> printfLn (dup . s . " plus " . swap . dup . s . " equals " . apply2 (+) . s)
02:15:57 <Cale> :: (Num t, Show t) => t -> t -> IO ()
02:15:57 <Cale> *Main> printfLn (dup . s . " plus " . swap . dup . s . " equals " . apply2 (+) . s) 4 6
02:15:57 <Cale> 4 plus 6 equals 10
02:16:19 <Moon_> `cool rhello calle, our new friend;
02:16:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cool: not found
02:16:33 <Cale> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/category-printf-0.1.0.1/src/src/Control/Category/Printf.hs -- everything is pretty much a one-liner
02:16:39 <shachaf> Cale: Didn't people make stack languages that you can use with just application, rather than (.)?
02:16:44 -!- Kaynato has joined.
02:16:49 <Cale> yeah, I've done that before as well...
02:16:51 <Moon_> `ciol rhello cale, our new friend, autocorrect is stupid;
02:16:54 <HackEgo> hello cale, our new friend, autocorrect is stupid
02:17:01 <shachaf> Maybe you can make it work here for printfing.
02:17:13 <coppro> Cale: oh boy, way to nerdsnipe me
02:17:16 <shachaf> But maybe the OverloadedStrings instance would have to be too general.
02:17:21 <shachaf> coppro: Do you band with other Seans of the Hunt?
02:17:26 <Moon_> You can make programs for hackego
02:17:34 <oerjan> shachaf: hm that reminds me i still got my unfinished fmap experiment open in vim.
02:17:39 * coppro goes to understand the ((->) m) comonad
02:17:39 <Moon_> Hackego is a Unix system
02:18:03 <Moon_> Ciol was made in windows and compiled for Unix
02:18:04 <shachaf> coppro: It's the same sort of thing as the (m,) Monad.
02:18:13 <Cale> coppro: Well, if you think about a function out of a monoid, you can apply that function to the identity, which gives you a natural mapping (m -> a) -> a
02:18:15 <boily> Moon_: did you install linux during my absence?
02:18:33 <Moon_> Lazy and shiternet
02:18:52 <Moon_> I think evil is broken
02:18:58 <Cale> coppro: and you also have a somewhat obvious way to turn a function (m -> a) into a function (m -> m -> a) which just multiplies its two arguments before applying the given function
02:19:01 * boily stares sternly at Moon_
02:19:28 <Cale> coppro: so that's your extract and duplicate
02:20:00 <coppro> extend is (m -> a -> b) -> (m -> a) -> (m -> b)...
02:20:07 <Moon_> `f ciol src/ciol/helloworld.ciol
02:20:16 <oerjan> <Moon_> In c <-- Cale is a haskell expert. sadly HackEgo lost its haskell abilities in a server move.
02:20:20 <shachaf> coppro: Don't worry about extend, you can write it with duplicate and extract.
02:20:27 <HackEgo> cat: f: No such file or directory
02:20:31 <coppro> shachaf: it helps me understand the semantics though
02:20:51 <Moon_> Could we reimplent haskell?
02:20:55 <Cale> For this library, you probably want to think about Cokleisli for that comonad directly
02:21:00 <shachaf> coppro: Also (e ->) is a monad and (e,) is a comonad exactly when e is a comonoid.
02:21:01 <oerjan> Moon_: in fact iirc he once maintained lambdabot
02:21:20 <Cale> Its identity is just the extract we already talked about
02:21:50 <oerjan> Moon_: haskell is tricky to implement. although i recall Taneb was part of a student project doing it.
02:21:53 <coppro> shachaf: right. And all haskell types are comonoids, correct?
02:22:21 <shachaf> Well, sure, if you want to be pedantic about it.
02:22:43 <Moon_> That's a shame oerjan
02:22:44 <oerjan> (_GHC_ haskell can only be implemented by GHC, though. more extensions than you can shake a stick at.)
02:23:20 <Cale> So anyway, for the purposes of this library, we think about Cokleisli ((->) m) a b
02:23:23 <shachaf> oerjan: i've shaken a stick at ghc's extensions before hth
02:24:09 <Cale> as something which may write something in the monoid m, while "changing the type of printf from a to b", roughly
02:24:18 <oerjan> <Moon_> I think evil is broken <-- no, the creator just got so overwhelmed by what he'd done that he deleted all the entries except one.
02:24:27 -!- jaboja has joined.
02:24:42 <Cale> For example, something which adds a responsibility to provide another argument of type t would have type Cokleisli ((->) m) a (t -> a)
02:24:46 <coppro> Cale: how do you get "write something"?
02:25:03 <coppro> isn't it receiving an m, not producing one?
02:25:13 <Cale> Well, given some x :: m, you have Cokleisli ($ x)
02:25:33 <Cale> ($ x) :: (m -> a) -> a
02:25:44 <shachaf> > run (now "hi " . later show . now "!") 1
02:25:53 <Cale> and so Cokleisli ($ x) :: Cokleisli ((->) m) a a
02:26:06 <Moon_> `culprits bin/evil
02:26:15 <coppro> Cale: ok, think I follow
02:26:23 <HackEgo> cat "$(find evil -type f | shuf -n1)" | tr '[:lower:]' '[:upper:]'
02:26:28 <Moon_> It's not evil enough
02:26:35 <Cale> So we have that as a formatter called c in the library
02:26:45 <Cale> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/category-printf-0.1.0.1/src/src/Control/Category/Printf.hs -- have a look at the source code
02:26:53 <Moon_> TSWEET deleted everything else
02:26:55 <Cale> c is used to write the IsString instance
02:27:06 <Cale> instance (a ~ b, IsString s, Monoid s) => IsString (Cokleisli ((->) s) a b) where
02:27:06 <Cale> fromString = c . fromString
02:27:35 <Cale> The equality constraint is just to help type inference not get confused
02:27:55 <Cale> It'll commit to the instance, and later decide that a and b really need to be the same type
02:28:11 <boily> what is "~" in this context?
02:28:19 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: i've shaken a stick at ghc's extensions before hth <-- well that was before. now there are simply too many kinds hth
02:28:22 <Cale> a ~ b means that a and b must be the same type
02:28:27 <HackEgo> share/maimery//$target has been badly maimed! \ *draws their sword* \ I'll get the bears \ Now where did I leave my jumper cables... \ *grumbles something about a broken hacksaw* \ $target just lost an arm! \ $target just lost an leg! \ $target just got fried by jumpercables! \ $target just froze off their fingers! \ $target just melted off their f
02:28:44 <coppro> Cale: yep, I see what's happening now
02:29:18 <Cale> Yeah, thank Ryan Trinkle for showing me that trick... and he told me whose blog he got it from, but I forget right at the moment
02:29:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
02:29:31 <Moon_> yay, i set a\upna]]]\|\\
02:29:43 <Cale> So the next thing after that is i
02:29:45 <Moon_> ya y i set up a better keyboard for my android
02:29:47 <Cale> i :: Format m a (m -> a)
02:29:47 <Cale> i = Cokleisli id
02:30:04 <Cale> Oh, btw, type Format m = Cokleisli ((->) m)
02:30:16 <Cale> basically just because I got tired of typing all the punctuation
02:30:53 <boily> Cale: why can't you simply write (Cokleisly ((->) s) a a) if "a" and "b" are the same?
02:31:37 <Cale> boily: basically because sometimes GHC won't *know* that the two types are the same when it's trying to figure out which instance of IsString to apply, and it won't commit to the instance in that case
02:31:52 <HackEgo> Moon is a person, not an unretroreflectorey object.
02:32:12 <Cale> boily: When it's selecting which instance to apply, GHC won't look at the constraint before the =>
02:32:26 <oerjan> <Moon_> yay, i set a\upna]]]\|\\ <-- [citation needed]
02:32:38 <Cale> and it only considers that part *after* deciding to commit to using that instance
02:33:17 <boily> aaaaaah! sudden illumination.
02:34:42 <coppro> Cale: ok, let me try to write s now
02:35:02 <coppro> we have formatString . show :: t -> s
02:35:16 <Cale> fromString, you mean?
02:35:25 <coppro> fromString . show :: t -> m
02:36:12 <coppro> now, i :: Format m a (m -> a)
02:37:27 <coppro> so... s = (. (fromString . show)) <$> i
02:38:35 <Cale> yeah, that works
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02:40:42 <oerjan> Moon__: you never left hth
02:41:04 <Cale> I have spliceWith :: (Monoid m) => (t -> m) -> Format m a (t -> a)
02:41:15 <Cale> and I defined spliceWith f = Cokleisli (. f)
02:41:22 <Cale> but that's the same as fmap (. f) i
02:41:27 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: haskall: not found
02:41:47 <Cale> and I defined s = spliceWith (fromString . show)
02:42:36 <Cale> I should add things like padding and more numeric formatting stuff like C printf has.
02:42:56 -!- Moon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
02:43:32 <Cale> The other cool thing which is coming soon
02:43:55 <Cale> Is that reflex is going to get an update in the next few weeks which will add an Applicative instance for Dynamic
02:44:11 <Cale> and that means that we'll be able to lift monoid instances through Dynamic
02:44:40 <Cale> and have printfWith dynText using reflex-dom -- a printf with dynamically varying arguments
02:46:12 <Cale> (and of course, we'll need instance (Reflex t, IsString m) => IsString (Dynamic t m) where fromString = constDyn . fromString
02:48:01 <Cale> There are various other things which you could do with this and reflex-dom -- e.g. it could be used to string together widgets
02:48:12 <coppro> Cale: the thing that would stop me from using it, of course, is having to manipulate the stack directly
02:48:28 <Cale> Well, you don't usually really have to manipulate the stack in sensible uses of it
02:49:07 <coppro> if you want to use an argument multiple times, I wonder if there's a way to get it to work using type-level nats
02:49:37 <Cale> Actually, yes.
02:49:46 <Cale> You can do it with a type class
02:50:57 <Cale> Also, look at the implementation of the stack manipulation things
02:51:17 <Cale> It's possible that using arr directly would be preferable to using dup/swap/etc. in most cases
02:52:23 <Cale> *Main Data.String Control.Arrow> printfLn (arr (\k x y -> k x y (x+y)) . s . " plus " . s . " equals " . s) 4 6
02:52:23 <Cale> 4 plus 6 equals 10
02:55:36 <oerjan> . o O ( will all this inline away... )
02:55:42 <Cale> Which of course means that we can use the proc/do Arrow-notation to write formatters, which I haven't really begun to explore
02:55:56 <Cale> I bet it does, haha
02:56:07 <Cale> It's all newtypes and tiny definitions
02:56:28 <Cale> tiny and non-recursive definitions
02:57:28 <coppro> oh yeah, arrows are a thing
02:57:56 <Cale> unfortunately, it doesn't interact with laziness very nicely
02:58:15 <Cale> Like, if you try f = dup . s . f or something
02:58:25 <Cale> you can't get it to print an infinite string
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03:01:32 <Cale> oops, just realised the type of skip is overly restrictive too
03:07:57 <Cale> But yeah, it's cool, I feel with this, we have a pretty good understanding of what printf format specifiers really "are", in some sense.
03:12:32 <coppro> things like this make me wish I was back in academia
03:12:48 <coppro> I'm actually impressed this didn't require type-level math logic either
03:27:00 <Cale> I'm just working as a Haskell programmer, and basically a portion of my free time is spent on academic sorts of things :)
03:29:07 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access ./---##,: No such file or directory
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04:16:02 <shachaf> oerjan: Maybe Cale can figure out the fmap thing.
04:16:32 <coppro> Cale: do you work in Brantford?
04:16:52 <coppro> I spend too much of my free time on gaming stuff & politics for that...
04:19:19 <coppro> Cale: hah! I googled "cale haskell" and it turns out there's a guy by that name who works at Bungie!?
04:19:51 <coppro> then I remembered /whois exists
04:19:59 <coppro> shachaf: what fmap thing?
04:20:33 <shachaf> There were a few different things.
04:21:07 <shachaf> One of them was writing an expression using using only (.) that makes an arbitrary grouping function like (\a b c d e f -> a (b (c d)) (e f))
04:21:54 <coppro> do you mean that you're given a grouping function and your goal is to write it using (.)?
04:26:58 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream.
04:29:50 <zzo38> I have found something I and my brother have written a long time ago about a new kind of Pokemon game, that can be played on PC (it is unclear whether DOS or purely PC) or on Nintendo DS. There was all various sort of strange stuff
04:31:52 <zzo38> One thing was a cheat code to make all of your pokemons to be level 100. On the PC version the cheat code is to push all keys simultaneously, and on the DS version the cheat code is when it ask you for your name, type A and then switch to Japanese and try to add a dakuten mark to the A twenty times (nothing will happen the first nineteen times).
04:39:32 <shachaf> zzo38: Well, the first nineteen times maybe it increments a counter.
04:39:53 <shachaf> If truly nothing happened the first nineteen times then nothing would happen the twentieth time either.
04:40:38 <zzo38> Well, yes, it would increment a counter, but nothing else (no display of such counter or any other effect, and presumably you lose the chance if you do anything else)
04:44:29 -!- Moon__ has quit (Quit: Page closed).
04:45:37 <coppro> shachaf: what else was there?
04:47:33 <zzo38> If you name your character "VOID" you lose the game instantly.
04:49:27 <zzo38> Also one of the items in the game is a "fuse"; if you use it then it confuses your own active pokemon.
04:49:39 <zzo38> Also it is possible to sell badges.
04:51:01 <shachaf> I think some of the other questions were solved.
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04:52:36 <coppro> shachaf: isn't the one about grouping functions just a special case of @pl?
04:53:05 <shachaf> Well, the original question was whether you could do it without parentheses.
04:53:38 <coppro> how would you do that?
04:58:43 <oerjan> coppro: not with just (.)
04:59:15 <coppro> oh, like lambdas and stuff?
04:59:58 <zzo38> Before the final set of battles you must enter the "Special Finals", which have several special sets of rules, including such things as 2 vs 1, doing the battle inside of a moving elevator, and other special rules. Also rename/delete is allowed anywhere, and pokemon moves used outside of battle still require PP and cannot be used if you have run out of HP.
05:00:03 <oerjan> coppro: that you can do grouping with combinations of (.) is easy. the next question was whether you can apply that recursively to flatten the grouping function as well. and with just (.) the answer is "obviously" no because (.),(.)(.),(.)(.)(.),... repeats after a while.
05:00:39 <oerjan> coppro: so the question now is, can you do it with only a few functions, each of which are combinations of (.)s
05:01:20 <oerjan> (if you have infinitely many, you can do it: (.).(.).(.). ... . (.) are enough
05:01:56 <oerjan> i.e. you can write any grouping function as f_1 ... f_n where each f_i is of that form.
05:04:01 <oerjan> (n might be 0, which is the only way to get id afaict)
05:04:24 <oerjan> (unless you have id in the basis)
05:05:31 <oerjan> and also, only considering bases of functions that are themselves combinations of (.). if you can use arbitrary combinators not just "grouping", then there's a well-known method using CPS transformation.
05:06:58 <oerjan> so the question is: Is there a finite basis that can construct all groupings this way
05:07:36 <oerjan> i started looking at {(.), (.)(.)} as a possible basis but i lost concentration quickly.
05:08:46 <oerjan> coppro: psst, Cale's surname is in his /whois hth
05:09:00 <oerjan> coppro: never mind me reading scrollback one line at a time
05:18:28 <Cale> coppro: I live in Brantford and work out of my house. My employer is in New York.
05:22:02 <Cale> coppro: I work for Obsidian Systems on web applications for various clients written entirely in Haskell.
05:22:49 <Cale> coppro: Especially interesting is that we're using reflex-dom and ghcjs to build the frontends.
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06:07:52 <coppro> why is getting the crystal cruiser so hard :(
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06:52:15 <newsham> Adam Yedidia, a PhD student at MIT (but an MEng student when he did most of this work), has explicitly constructed a one-tape, two-symbol Turing machine with 7,918 states, whose behavior (when run on a blank tape) can never be proven from the usual axioms of set theory, under reasonable consistency hypotheses.
06:52:20 <newsham> http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2725
06:56:06 <oerjan> gah scott is really speeding up his posting
06:56:23 * oerjan opened his 5th shtetl-optimized tab
06:59:38 <shachaf> oerjan is clearly not shtetl-optimized-optimized
07:01:40 <oerjan> well, i'm following comment threads and those have been active last week.
07:01:57 <zzo38> Aether Hack {U} Instant ;; Change text of target spell or permanent by replacing all instances of one named (i.e. not power/toughness) counter type word with another. (Does not affect what a keyword ability does.) Do you like this?
07:06:44 <shachaf> Hmm, I guess there are various uses.
07:07:22 <shachaf> It seems like maybe it should only work until end of turn, if it's affecting a permanent?
07:08:31 <zzo38> No it lasts permanently like Artificial Evolution and Magical Hack and Sleight of Mind.
07:09:18 <zzo38> Also like those other cards, it can be used with your own and with opponent's cards, possibly including circumstances you have not anticipated.
07:09:32 <shachaf> It should say "(This effect lasts indefinitely.)".
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07:11:27 <zzo38> Yes it could have that reminder text if you want to.
07:13:17 <zzo38> You can try to see what possible uses there are, with official cards and/or with other custom cards. One use would be to reset something such as Delaying Shield. Another thing you can do is to replace "experience counter" with "poison counter" or vice-versa. There are a lot more.
07:17:14 <shachaf> You could use it on Dark Depths.
07:18:18 <zzo38> Yes, that too, it can make it to trigger immediately.
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11:02:03 <ski> <ski> Cale : oh. yes i remember figuring out that concatenative language trick, years ago :)
11:02:08 <ski> the nice thing with this CPS trick for concatenative is that the stack is naturally heterogenous, and that composition reads from left-to-right (or perhaps that's not nice, depending on how you look at it) ..
11:04:02 <ski> the not so nice thing is that it's CPS, perhaps with a very thin wrapping
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11:08:34 <ski> well, for clarification, i should say that i didn't have the part involving the monoid `m'. only the CPS part
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12:02:45 <fizzie> Subject: So many people out of work...get that Degree and rise to the top
12:03:12 <fizzie> They've added strikeout in the middle of "key" words -- I wonder if that actually does work for avoiding spam filters.
12:03:43 <fizzie> "car<s>e</s>er>, "p<s>r</s>ogram", etc.
12:05:18 <boily> Get your Authentic Dr. Fizzie Degree Certificate Now!
12:06:29 <fizzie> This is the one that advertised "No Examination! No Study! No Class!"
12:06:40 <fizzie> And Fast Worldwide Shipping.
12:07:08 <fizzie> It's also "100% Confidenial" [sic], which I can't help thinking is some sort of a pun.
12:08:20 <boily> it works to a degree.
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12:34:19 <FreeFull> fizzie: Clearly you only can get a pogram from them
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13:44:49 <fizzie> FreeFull: A pogram for my carer.
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16:31:22 <int-e> (I thought I knew what that means but it doesn't fit in Phantom_Hoover's line)
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17:57:18 <hppavilion[1]> I'm designing something that I'm not smart enough to implement...
17:57:45 <hppavilion[1]> (Not something impossible, mind you, just something I don't have the required knowledge for (yet!))
17:59:15 <zzo38> What kind of thing is it?
18:02:08 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: It's a sort of improved hybrid between Mobile and Desktop models
18:03:01 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: It creates safer & cleaner & more powerful applications without limiting the user by dividing executables into two types- sandboxed and free-floating (names are just off the top of my head)
18:04:32 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: The sandboxed ones declare all the stuff they need at install time and set up their working environment by telling the OS why sort of things they want- for example, you can have an application where long-term storage is 100% freeform (no file system, just a nice, protected section of non-volatile disk space to use however)
18:07:41 <zzo38> It could still be accessible as a file though so that commands such as dd and mv and rm can be used; if you use rm or rmdir then you can uninstall it. It doesn't seem the filesystem but rather can be made part of design of OS. Internally the storage might look differently but it is helpful to expose as a UNIX filesystem at least.
18:08:23 <zzo38> It mean the user could customize the sandboxing of the program.
18:12:17 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Yes, using the free-form filesystem layout is discouraged
18:13:09 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: And you can remove a sandboxed application at will, there's a distinction between the application itself (the executable(s) when abstraction is stripped away) and the application's memory space
18:13:26 <hppavilion[1]> I think we need a "Politician's Guide to the Interwebz"
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18:57:46 <zzo38> I did write the program to reduce colours of a picture to a specified palette (you can independently specify the way to select the best colour per pixel and the dithering algorithm), but not the program to figure out optimized palette, yet.
19:07:56 <zzo38> I don't know if I should need to implement hold-and-modify.
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19:50:44 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: I wouldn't mind the snakes
19:51:06 <FreeFull> I also wanna link something to zzo but he left
19:51:07 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: I think that we should make the Consortium actually do it
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20:01:50 <FreeFull> 20:01:40 -MemoServ(MemoServ@services.)- zzo38 does not wish to receive memos.
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20:31:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Var'aq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46920&oldid=36135 * 2.97.117.195 * (+230) /* External resources */
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21:16:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Laconic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46921 * B jonas * (+1058) Created page with "'''Laconic''' is a programming language that compiles to a one-tape two-symbol [[Turing machine]]. The goal for its creation was to create two-symbol Turing machines with ver..."
21:17:41 <b_jonas> Does Laconic count as an esolang?
21:18:06 <b_jonas> I think it does, because its sole purpose is to write short programs in another esolang.
21:18:20 <shachaf> I don't think Turing machines count.
21:19:17 <b_jonas> I guess if Mouse counts because its original purpose was to have a very small interpreter, then Laconic is the same idea.
21:23:38 <hppavilion[1]> F24DBA5FB0A30E26E83B2AC5B9E29E1B161E5C1FA7425E73043362938B9800chaf
21:24:17 <shachaf> you can't just -chaf any old thing
21:24:20 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: The output of a sha256 hash, converted to hex
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21:30:02 <hppavilion[1]> F24DBA5FB0A30E26E83B2AC5B9E29E1B161E5C1FA7425E73043362938B9824chaf
21:31:31 <hppavilion[1]> If normal quantum physics is based on the complexes...
21:31:31 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], wait, any sequence of characters ending with 'chaf' is a SHA256 hash of something
21:32:01 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but the body of the hash is uppercase and in hex
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21:32:22 <hppavilion[1]> Can we substitute the complexes for something weirder to get weird quantum physics? :P
21:33:00 <Phantom_Hoover> oh i thought you'd found something that hashed to *chaf
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21:36:09 <shachaf> but h isn't an exadecimal character
21:37:58 <b_jonas> wow. these two blog posts link each other as sources.
21:38:12 <b_jonas> maybe one of the posters have a time machine.
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21:38:43 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, this is all modulo me misunderstanding the image of SHA256 ofc.
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22:05:25 <shachaf> Like a hexadecimal, but without the h.
22:05:32 <j-bot> b_jonas: 8.64 11.52
22:06:42 <shachaf> Or maybe it's base-10000000000000000000.
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22:17:47 <quintopia> shachaf: is dorian gray's image an 8-bit greyscale bmp?
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22:21:45 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/f: line 1: ${1#* }: ambiguous redirect \ /hackenv/bin/f: line 1: : command not found
22:21:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: haskell: not found
22:22:09 <moon_> `f ciol rshame haskell doesnt exist;
22:22:21 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/f: line 1: ${1#* }: ambiguous redirect
22:22:21 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ $_ = join " ", @ARGV; if (s/^([^ ]*) +([^ ]*) +//) { print "$1: "; exec $2, $_; }
22:22:59 <HackEgo> cat: bin/.: Is a directory
22:23:05 <moon_> `ciol rshame haskell doesnt exist;
22:23:06 <HackEgo> shame haskell doesnt exist
22:23:16 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$1" | rnoooooodl \ echo hi \ exec \ #!/bin/sh \ CMD=`echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f1` \ ARG=`echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-` \ exec ibin/$CMD "$ARG"#!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/noooooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | se
22:23:27 <HackEgo> bin/` bin/̊ bin/ bin/! bin/? bin/¿ bin/' bin/@ bin/* bin/؟ bin/ bin/ bin/e bin/f bin/h bin/q
22:23:40 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/؟: line 1: ^: command not found
22:24:29 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/¿: line 1: ^: command not found
22:24:43 <moon_> https://catmacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/cat-halp-1-1.jpg
22:27:06 <HackEgo> cat: bin/bin: No such file or directory
22:27:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/bin: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/bin: cannot execute: Is a directory
22:44:30 <fizzie> Since the minimal f is clearly too difficult to use, added some error messages to when using it wrong.
22:45:07 <HackEgo> #! /bin/bash \ cmd="$1" \ shift \ f="$*" \ if [[ -z "$f" && "$cmd" == *\ * ]]; then f="${cmd#* }"; cmd="${cmd%% *}"; fi \ if [[ -z "$f" ]]; then echo try: \`f command filename; elif [[ -e "$f" ]]; then "$cmd" "$(< "$f")"; else echo no such file: "$f"; fi
22:45:55 <HackEgo> ^ \ :-( \ !\.´ \ 71ab5gx8 \ 99 \ 99bb \ advice \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ cdescs \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ daoyu.c \ dog \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ Eternity \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hia \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ lolwhy? \ ls_dev \ marsha \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ ReUari
22:46:26 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 0 May 1 20:23 ^
22:46:50 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 32 May 1 20:23 !\.´
22:47:05 <HackEgo> echo 'emergency signal toggled'
22:47:39 <HackEgo> cat: 71: No such file or directory
22:48:24 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `^ 71ab5gx8': No such file or directory
22:48:26 <fizzie> Huh, there must be a \r in that file.
22:48:34 <fizzie> There's more to it than that.
22:48:53 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/71ab5gx8
22:49:31 <fizzie> I don't know when HackEgo picked up this "\r terminates the output" thing, I didn't think that was always the case.
22:50:05 <fizzie> But it's clearly not just straightforwardly trying to output it unfiltered, because the standard \rPRIVMSG stuff doesn't do anything bad.
22:50:41 <fizzie> `` echo -e 'foo\nbar\rbaz' # it's just strange
22:50:54 <FireFly> Maybe it just acts as EOF essentially
22:51:23 <fizzie> I mean, it would act as EOF essentially if HackEgo *was* passing it through unfiltered.
22:52:07 <shachaf> i was telling fizzie to hire you, obviously
22:52:07 <HackEgo> bf \ brainfuck.fu \ c \ ciol \ egobot.tar.xz \ emmental.hs \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ fizziecoin.jpg \ fueue.c \ grph.c \ ploki \ ploki-0.6.5.1.tar.bz2 \ u8tbl.c \ ul.emm
22:52:14 <fizzie> HireFly is probably a name for something that exists.
22:52:28 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `71ab5gx8 src/bob.c' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
22:52:35 <fizzie> "Hirefly exists to help small and medium sized organizations hire better, so that more people can be engaged in meaningful work."
22:53:21 <fizzie> All these carriages to return.
22:53:45 <fizzie> My professional recommendation for HackEgo spring cleanups is to go via the fshg.
22:53:50 <HackEgo> cat: lolwhy?: Is a directory
22:55:32 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `lolwhy?': Is a directory
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23:14:38 <b_jonas> The more I think about the rust language, the more I think that its language level use-once values really add a lot of expressivity to it.
23:16:55 <moon_> damnit, the puns are taking revenge on me
23:19:49 <quintopia> what is the largest n for which S(n) has been determined?
23:20:26 <shachaf> I hope S is the successort function here.
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23:27:59 <b_jonas> quintopia: I think Aaronson's blog post answers that question.
23:30:15 <fizzie> I seem to recall the Wikipedia article having a table.
23:30:37 <tromp> is the Laconic author in this channel?
23:33:17 <shachaf> I don't think the author is particularly laconic.
23:34:16 <quintopia> i like that Yedidia has managed to get an academic paper out of a code golf
23:35:13 <quintopia> I wonder if PPCG could improve on the Yedidia TM.
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23:38:30 <tromp> goldbach only needs 267 bits
23:38:49 <tromp> their paper appears to use 4964
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23:48:40 <oerjan> `learn IMHO means "In my humble omniscience".
23:48:43 <HackEgo> Learned 'imho': IMHO means "In my humble omniscience".
23:50:02 <oerjan> `learn IMHO means "In my holy omniscience".
23:50:06 <HackEgo> Relearned 'imho': IMHO means "In my holy omniscience".
23:50:14 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: thx tdh hand
23:50:49 <oerjan> `learn IMHO means "In My Holy Omniscience".
23:50:52 <HackEgo> Relearned 'imho': IMHO means "In My Holy Omniscience".
23:52:21 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> I'm designing something that I'm not smart enough to implement... <-- tell me, are you _trolling_ for snarks? :P
23:52:48 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: "that shouldn't be hard"
23:52:49 <oerjan> because i have to resist making one
23:53:38 <moon_> *reading up on anti-piracy measures*
23:53:46 <oerjan> (which means i failed to meta-resist it, i guess)
23:54:06 <oerjan> moon_: i think the Somalia operation worked pretty well
23:55:47 <oerjan> . o O ( maybe we should send RIAA there on a conference )
23:56:39 <oerjan> otoh i saw someone get downvoted on reddit for wanting to torrent the ramanujan movie, so there is _some_ nuance there.
23:57:21 <int-e> tromp: well there's a downside to a) targeting turing machines and b) compiling from a comparatively high level language.
23:57:30 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: mostly cod, some haddock
23:58:39 <oerjan> int-e: y'all did see the aaronson link yesterday? (hm, i've not got around to finish reading it yet)
23:58:48 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M710835518429648114410516’
23:58:48 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘a0’ is ambiguous
23:59:12 <lambdabot> (Typeable a, Typeable b, FromExpr c) => (a -> b) -> c
23:59:45 <int-e> oerjan: well, I saw it mentioned and didn't have time... now I've followed the link to the paper on the esolang page on Laconic
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00:01:34 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M461523684287504534910579’
00:01:34 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘a0’ is ambiguous
00:01:51 <int-e> And I'm not sure I'll have the patience to actually read it. But the Goldbach program is relatively short in Laconic, and it really doesn't look like it should require 4888 states
00:02:59 <int-e> ? https://esolangs.org/wiki/Laconic
00:03:20 <oerjan> no, i mean, did you really mean "to" there
00:03:57 * int-e is probably blind to an alternative way of parsing this sentence right now.
00:04:21 <int-e> "the paper on"... oh.
00:04:36 <int-e> that would be confusing :)
00:09:56 -!- moon has joined.
00:10:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Laconic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46922&oldid=46921 * Oerjan * (+14) Fmt
00:10:14 <tromp> int-e: the almost 5000 states they need has a roughly 4000 state interpreter for locanic
00:10:19 -!- moon has changed nick to Guest80724.
00:10:39 <oerjan> int-e: well mostly it was just that i didn't realize someone made that page
00:11:19 -!- Guest80724 has changed nick to moon__.
00:12:19 * oerjan thinks formatting refs on esolang is confusing after he started using Cite templates on Wikipedia.
00:14:52 * moon__ is downloading freebsd to run on a virtual machine
00:19:05 -!- `^_^v has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:19:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Var'aq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46923&oldid=46920 * Oerjan * (-233) /* External resources */ merge and template
00:20:30 -!- Xe has changed nick to _8ade2af05f26.
00:20:53 -!- _8ade2af05f26 has changed nick to Xe.
00:21:57 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Can we substitute the complexes for something weirder to get weird quantum physics? :P <-- istr that discussed and the answer is essentially "no"
00:22:14 <oerjan> at least quaternions give nothing more
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00:22:43 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yeah, but what about the duals or split-complexes?
00:23:31 <oerjan> i don't remember what those are.
00:24:52 <oerjan> anyway, another idea is that quantum physics is based on a different idea of probability, and somehow only ordinary probability and quantum probability work without breaking the light speed limit for information.
00:25:01 <shachaf> oerjan: the dual numbers are what you get if you start with the numbers and reverse all the arrows hth
00:25:58 <oerjan> please try better than that if you want a swatting hth
00:26:12 <shachaf> that hurt more than any swatting hth
00:27:05 <shachaf> well i had some good ones yesterday
00:27:12 <oerjan> (and not breaking the light speed limit is important because it's so easy to make up something "weird" that fails to do that)
00:28:04 <oerjan> so the really weird thing about quantum mechanics isn't just how weird it is, but how it manages _not_ to give certain powers.
00:28:24 <oerjan> weird, but not always weird enough.
00:30:12 <shachaf> dan piponi wrote about something like that
00:31:59 <moon__> freebsd is quite close to unix, right?
00:32:10 <oerjan> <shachaf> the image of dorian gray <-- . o O ( this file never changes, although it's SHA256 hash does... )
00:33:00 <shachaf> no one ever talks about that kind of attack on a hash function
00:35:34 <moon__> freebsd is quite close to unix, right?
00:36:11 <shachaf> ah, http://blog.sigfpe.com/2013/10/distributed-computing-with-alien.html
00:36:33 <shachaf> "It suggests that quantum mechanics is right at the edge of the space of possible physics that make life difficult for us. If quantum mechanics were to be tweaked the tiniest amount to make correlations any stronger, large numbers of difficult distributed computing problems would suddenly collapse to become trivial. If the conjecture is true it means that nature looks a bit like a conspiracy to keep comp
00:36:47 <oerjan> so close to unix, so far from plan 9
00:37:18 <oerjan> shachaf: hm that might be where i got it from too
00:38:34 <moon__> that means running a virtual machine of it and treating it like a terminal is not a bad idea (lol)
00:41:16 * oerjan think moon__ may have got whooshed
00:41:30 <moon__> i can be batshit crazy at times
00:41:56 <oerjan> i think they're both POSIX systems, no?
00:44:10 <oerjan> anyway, it's all a big happy family.
00:44:34 <oerjan> don't mind the strange sounds in the attic.
00:46:34 <moon__> vi woont work, saying the disk is readonly, but i have a empty disk mounted, help?
00:49:42 <moon__> it says i have two drives mounted (i guess?) rootfs and devfs
00:50:36 <oerjan> sorry, that command doesn't say whether it's readonly. i've forgotten what does.
00:50:52 * oerjan doesn't do sysadmining himself.
00:51:39 <fizzie> 'mount' generally does.
00:52:35 <b_jonas> if you have root mounted as readonly, then mount will usually give incorrect information, because it tries to read the list of mounted disks from /etc/mtab which is read-only so previous mounts couldn't write it.
00:52:50 -!- moon has joined.
00:53:00 <moon> connection died
00:53:14 -!- moon has changed nick to Guest90291.
00:53:23 <oerjan> ok, i just had problems getting it to show only one mount.
00:53:28 <b_jonas> You can try reading /proc/self/mounts instead to ask the kernel to give you a list of mounts (sadly it's formatted to human-readable irreversibly)
00:53:31 -!- Guest90291 has changed nick to moon___.
00:53:44 <fizzie> b_jonas: At least my mount just reads from /proc. I don't know about FreeBSD's, though.
00:54:00 <oerjan> so i did df . first to get the mount point, then mount | grep ...
00:54:08 -!- moon__ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:54:57 <fizzie> (And my /etc/mtab is a symlink to ../proc/self/mounts, apparently.)
00:55:15 <oerjan> moon___: fizzie said you might have trouble if root is readonly
00:55:20 <b_jonas> moon___: three guesses: (1) try vim, (2) mount a writable disk (possibly a tmpfs) and use the :set directory command of vi to put the temp files there, (3) ask #vim on this network
00:55:41 <moon___> yea, i used the virtual disk supplyed by freebsd
00:55:44 <fizzie> shachaf: I don't know whether that's an idiom or reference.
00:55:55 <oerjan> b_jonas: please stop resembling fizzie twh
00:56:12 <b_jonas> (4) if all else fails, just use sed, it doesn't need to create temp files
00:56:55 <HackEgo> fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the king of #esoteric, see http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/src/fizziecoin.jpg
00:57:06 <b_jonas> moon___: also, um, this might be dumb but, any chance you can just remount the root fs to read-write?
00:57:26 <fizzie> Any chance you can just have a normal installation of a thing.
00:58:42 <b_jonas> moon___: like, first find out why it was mounted read-only, if it was mounted read-only because there are serious file system or disk io errors, then it might be dangerous to try to remount so don't do it, but if it is mounted ro only at boot and something happened and the boot couldn't proceed then it MIGHT be safe to remount,
00:58:51 <b_jonas> moon___: then mount -oremount,rw /
00:59:12 <moon___> cant hurt anything for now
00:59:13 <b_jonas> (if it's on a read-only disk, then it won't work)
00:59:22 * oerjan vaguely assumes moon___ has never used a unix-alike system before.
00:59:31 * moon___ notes that oerjan is right
00:59:39 <b_jonas> I thought he's just never adminned one
00:59:50 <oerjan> which means this advice is probably a bit over his head
01:00:03 <oerjan> (it's pretty close to over mine, too)
01:00:32 <pikhq> b_jonas: This would be relatively normal experience to have as a *knowledgable* user of a typical Unix system.
01:00:33 <moon___> ill try just using a installation disk
01:00:43 <b_jonas> oerjan: well, learning unix by managing an installation at home and trying to fix stuff I break did work for me.
01:00:44 <fizzie> It's "mount -u -o rw /" on FreeBSD, I believe. But, I mean, I distinctly remember a stock FreeBSD installation having writable storage.
01:01:00 <pikhq> Though certainly not, say, an OS X system, or a slightly less knowledgable user of a Unix system.
01:01:50 <b_jonas> pikhq: dunno, the mount might be but the vi magic part probably isn't. some unixy people can live their lives without knowing much of vi
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01:02:41 <pikhq> Okay, yes, knowing vi in detail is mostly gonna be admins or certain serious programmers.
01:02:55 <fizzie> Classically, you need to know enough of vi to get out of it.
01:03:04 <HackEgo> vi is in a relationship with emacs.
01:03:28 <b_jonas> fizzie: my opinion is that you need to know enough of vi to modify some makefiles of another editor you compile
01:04:11 <pikhq> On systems people *actually use*, knowing nano exists is plenty.
01:04:32 <moon___> i just realized my system thinks it doesnt have mk, im worried it might not
01:04:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46924&oldid=46918 * H3LL * (+1)
01:04:51 <oerjan> moon___: mk is a HackEgo command we made ourselves.
01:05:16 <HackEgo> [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo usage: "mk[x]" file//contents >&2; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "$key")" && echo "$key"
01:05:23 <b_jonas> pikhq: maybe you also have to know what handful of configuration you have to set to make programs invoke your editor of choice as the default editor, because not everything respects $VISUAL or $EDITOR
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01:05:31 <oerjan> moon___: because we don't have proper terminal access for a normal editor.
01:05:55 <oerjan> moon___: do you have nano, as pikhq suggested?
01:06:43 <b_jonas> oerjan: we could implement a small stateful line editor though. probably something like the editors in basic or APL systems that don't renumber lines until you explicitly ask but let you insert lines between already existing ones.
01:07:23 <oerjan> b_jonas: we don't like too much state, it clutters up the repository history
01:08:01 <b_jonas> oerjan: yeah... isn't there a stateful directory (or other state) that's not versioned though, so we use that?
01:08:18 <b_jonas> Not even as an accidental feature or bug?
01:08:33 <b_jonas> moon___: what are you hoping to edit with vim anyway if your file systems are read-only?
01:09:11 <b_jonas> fizzie: hmm... note to self, find some such bug
01:09:39 <fizzie> It would likely involve a bug in the uml sandbox.
01:10:48 <b_jonas> fizzie: I don't think it needs to. those sandboxes aren't really built to be completely deterministic, so we can use some side-channel to store state.
01:10:50 <moon___> im going to use ee to learn
01:11:48 <fizzie> b_jonas: Each execution is a fresh boot of UML, and the only thing bound read-write from outside is the repository directory.
01:12:08 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, but I said side-channels. non-deterministic stuff.
01:12:26 <b_jonas> not actualy fs directories
01:12:41 <oerjan> moon___: btw you can always replace mk with echo '...' >filename , although you might need to escape 's inside
01:12:44 <fizzie> I'll believe that once I see it.
01:13:40 <b_jonas> there might not be a practically usable one of course
01:16:17 <fizzie> Having an easy-to-use stateful editor would also be a loss in the sense that editing files would be less of a puzzle game every time.
01:17:51 <HackEgo> sed -i "$1" "$(lastfiles)"
01:18:09 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access fetch: No such file or directory
01:18:15 <HackEgo> cat: bin/fetch: No such file or directory
01:18:21 <HackEgo> cat: fetch: No such file or directory
01:18:48 <oerjan> moon___: fetch is a builtin of HackEgo that's outside the sandbox precisely so it can access the web freely
01:19:12 <b_jonas> fizzie: well, it's a win-win because if I don't find such a state, then I can just say termbot is superior
01:19:21 <b_jonas> (for it has persistent state)
01:19:32 <b_jonas> (and it's not version controlled)
01:20:40 <oerjan> that does not sound superior hth
01:20:59 <moon___> what would be a good way to put a file (like ciol intepreter src) onto freebsd?
01:21:18 <oerjan> moon___: normally i'd suggest curl or wget but i don't know if those work inside your VM.
01:21:31 <moon___> mine is set up ith connection
01:21:34 <b_jonas> no no, first check if you can install from ports
01:22:07 <oerjan> b_jonas: ciol is his own esolang
01:22:37 * oerjan never used a VM so should shut up at this point
01:23:22 <oerjan> but there's probably a standard way to transfer files between inside and outside
01:23:39 <b_jonas> do we even know what kind of vm it is?
01:24:26 <b_jonas> also, it's never "a standard"
01:24:55 <oerjan> well standard for the VM
01:24:57 <b_jonas> there's probably multiple standard ways
01:25:39 <b_jonas> moon___: well, if it already has a network connection to the outside, then you can probably transfer the file through that
01:25:39 <oerjan> . o O ( wednesday, so two extra mezzacotta comics )
01:25:42 <tswett> shachaf: the heck is a comonoid? Is it... something where... nah, I'm stumped.
01:26:00 <shachaf> tswett: it's like a monoid but with the arrows reversed hth
01:26:09 <b_jonas> wait, we don't have an entry on this one?
01:26:29 <oerjan> tswett: this time shachaf speaks truth
01:26:32 <HackEgo> Comonads are just monads in the dual category.
01:26:52 <tswett> Is a comonoid in a category a monoid in the opposite category?
01:27:29 <oerjan> b_jonas: they're uninteresting in haskell because _every_ type is a comonoid with the operations \x -> () and \x -> (x,x) (iirc)
01:27:59 <shachaf> oerjan: For (,)-comonoids, yes.
01:28:10 <shachaf> You can also talk about comonoids with Either, I guess.
01:28:20 <oerjan> are those interesting?
01:28:36 <shachaf> You have counit : M -> Void and comult : M -> Either M M
01:28:38 <moon___> hat does pkg mean when 'Error fetching <blah>: no package record?
01:28:46 <shachaf> So only Void is an instance.
01:29:16 <shachaf> You can also talk about monoids with Either -- unit : Void -> A and mult : Either A A -> A -- and those are also uninteresting.
01:29:28 <b_jonas> oerjan: um, just because there's one definition that works, there might also be more interesting instances you can define.
01:29:58 <shachaf> On the other hand, if you're talking about monoids in the category of endofunctors you get all sorts of interesting options.
01:30:12 <shachaf> You can get Applicative, Alternative, and Monad.
01:30:31 <shachaf> Yes, you can get it two different ways.
01:30:51 <shachaf> The simpler one is with (:*:).
01:31:14 <shachaf> unit : Proxy ~> F; mult : (F :*: F) ~> F
01:31:16 <oerjan> is there a category of monoid concepts in the category of endofunctors, and does it have initial and final elements
01:31:49 <oerjan> those options you mention
01:32:20 <shachaf> Well, the "options" here are choices of tensor products for the category of endofunctors, I guess.
01:32:32 <moon___> what does pkg mean when 'Error fetching <blah>: no package record'?
01:32:41 <moon___> im trying to have it install itself
01:32:48 <moon___> it doesnt come preinstalled
01:32:59 <shachaf> I'm not sure what a morphism from one choice of tensor product to another is?
01:33:36 <shachaf> I guess a tensor product is a bifunctor : CxC -> C
01:33:40 <b_jonas> shachaf: the category is defined in the natural way hth
01:33:43 <shachaf> So you can talk about natural transformations between them.
01:34:05 <shachaf> b_jonas: so what's the answer twh
01:34:31 <shachaf> fizzie: can we have a graph of the rise of hth along with its friends twh tdh tdnh etc. twh
01:35:03 <oerjan> shachaf: you'd imagine the Applicative => Monad relationship to give an arrow somewhere?
01:35:41 <shachaf> Also the category is probably more complicated because you have the identity and the isomorphisms.
01:38:10 <oerjan> (i've just been thinking about the awkward fact that Expr stuff needs too much type annotation)
01:39:01 <lambdabot> No instance for (Show t0) arising from a use of ‘f’
01:39:01 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘t0’ is ambiguous
01:39:01 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
01:39:29 <oerjan> :t \g -> f (g x) :: Expr
01:40:14 <oerjan> hm lambdabot doesn't do ExtendedDefaulting?
01:40:54 <lambdabot> No instance for (Show t0) arising from a use of ‘f’
01:40:54 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘t0’ is ambiguous
01:40:54 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
01:41:02 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Show t0) arising from a use of ‘f’
01:41:02 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type of it :: FromExpr t => t
01:44:32 <tswett> So I got to thinking today—using pretty much only just existing software, how could you make a Linux distribution which contains the smallest possible number of non-.NET components?
01:45:14 <tswett> Let's say that in order to be considered a "Linux distribution", it has to be capable of compiling itself, and it also has to be minimally usable.
01:45:56 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:45:56 <tswett> By definition, the distro will have to include Linux. If I'm not mistaken, GCC is also mandatory, because nothing besides GCC can compile Linux.
01:46:18 <tswett> Without binutils, you're in a pretty bad spot.
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01:46:31 <tswett> I think technically you could add Busybox and call it done.
01:46:53 <tswett> But that's not an answer that's in the spirit of the question.
01:47:08 <tswett> So, add in Mono as well.
01:47:26 <oerjan> @ask int-e Would anything important go wrong if you added Expr to the end of lambdabot's default list? (i can think of one thing: expressions confusing Integrals and Fractionals might inexplicably start giving Exprs instead of errors.)
01:47:27 <b_jonas> tswett: you also need a libc besides the busybox
01:47:46 <tswett> Oh yeah, libc is pretty important.
01:47:52 <b_jonas> tswett: as well as a make, a couple of libraries for gcc, and some shell utilities to make the kernel build work
01:48:10 <tswett> Do you really need make at all?
01:49:01 <b_jonas> tswett: for compiling the kernel, sure, it's driven by makefiles
01:49:22 <tswett> So either use make, or replace all the makefiles with something else.
01:49:24 <b_jonas> oh, and you need libc headers too, to be able to compiler gcc
01:49:41 <tswett> You could use fsharpi as a shell.
01:49:52 <tswett> It would make a pretty crappy standard Linux shell.
01:50:04 <b_jonas> tswett: what you could do is to not include gcc directly, but instead include a smaller compiler and use that to compile a gcc
01:50:07 <moon___> freebsd is causing problems, wont let me run files
01:50:37 <b_jonas> although with recent gcc versions that's pretty difficult because you actually need a c++ compiler, and there's not many working ones other than gcc and clang
01:50:54 <moon___> i need to run rc but i cant
01:50:59 <b_jonas> moon___: um, be more specific please
01:51:21 <tswett> Sounds like you might need to chmod +x the file you're trying to run.
01:51:26 <b_jonas> tswett: you need a _real_ shell and a couple of utils to run those makefiles
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01:52:00 <tswett> So the minimal self-compiling Linux distro actually includes, like, several components.
01:52:49 <b_jonas> tswett: sure. and in a real distro, you'd also need an init and a modutils, though if you ONLY want to self-compile, not do anything else, you can probably omit them
01:53:14 <tswett> Surely init could be written in .NET.
01:53:39 <tswett> ln -s fsharpi /bin/init
01:53:41 <b_jonas> tswett: ugh... no. and traditional init is a small program, so you don't have to.
01:53:58 <b_jonas> it's easier to just have an init
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01:54:35 <b_jonas> tswett: the biggest problem isn't even gcc
01:54:47 <b_jonas> tswett: in "self-compiling", do you mean also compiling libc?
01:55:04 <b_jonas> because compiling libc is pretty much impossible (this is a known bug or known feature, depending on who you ask)
01:55:24 <b_jonas> so you can't really have a completely self-compiling linux distro with gnu libc at all
01:55:37 <b_jonas> you'll need to use an alternate libc, and that makes a lot of things harder
01:55:47 <tswett> glibc is nearly impossible to compile?
01:56:06 <b_jonas> tswett: yes, or it was last I checked, some years ago. there's even a bug ticket about it which says so.
01:56:31 <b_jonas> tswett: have you ever compiled one? I did, but that was a decade ago, so I know it's *changed* to become impossible to compile at some point.
01:56:39 <b_jonas> It's not just that I'm stupid and that's why I can't compile it.
01:57:26 <b_jonas> More like 15 years ago actually. How time flies.
02:00:43 <b_jonas> But failing to build libc was also a long time ago, so eventually I should try building libc again, because it's annoying that I can't. I know libc has changed a lot since I failed to build it.
02:01:14 <moon___> i dont get rc.conf at all, and i cant enable networking *sigh*
02:01:29 <b_jonas> I should probably try to build it around the time I try contact lenses the third time, for the situation is somewhat analogous, with me, contact lenses, and libc all changing a lot during the yeras.
02:07:31 <tswett> > last (takeWhile (> 0)) (iterate (/ 2) 1)
02:07:32 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘[[Double] -> t]’
02:07:32 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘[Integer] -> [Integer]’
02:07:32 <lambdabot> Probable cause: ‘takeWhile’ is applied to too few arguments
02:07:47 <tswett> > last (takeWhile (> 0) (iterate (/ 2) 1))
02:14:26 <moon___> oh well, im going to have to go to my ip configuration to make address space for freebsd
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02:29:28 -!- moon___ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
02:31:54 <oerjan> `` echo -e 'foo\nbar\rPRIVMSG #esoteric :hi\r\n' #just double checking fizzie's claim
02:33:00 <oerjan> maybe it fails because it doesn't output \r\n, only \r
02:37:34 <oerjan> `` echo -e 'foo\nbar\rQUIT'
02:42:12 <oerjan> > length (takeWhile (> 0) (iterate (/ 2) 1))
02:42:31 <tswett> > subtract 1 . last . takeWhile (> 1) . map (+1) . iterate (/ 2) $ 1
02:43:09 <tswett> > (1 + 2.220446049250313e-16, 1 + 2.220446049250313e-16 / 2, 1 + 2.220446049250313e-16 / 3, 1 + 2 * 2.220446049250313e-16 / 3)
02:43:11 <lambdabot> (1.0000000000000002,1.0,1.0,1.0000000000000002)
02:43:33 <tswett> What rounding rule is this thing using?
02:50:26 -!- Moon__ has joined.
02:54:24 <tswett> > (2 * 5.0e-324) * 1.5
02:54:45 <tswett> Whoops, that's the wrong one.
02:54:48 <tswett> > (2 * 5.0e-324) * 0.75
02:55:30 <oerjan> tswett: well calculations are IEEE, not sure about output.
02:55:42 <tswett> Well, the rounding rule can't be "ties go towards zero", then.
02:56:35 <tswett> By the way, I propose that 2.220446049250313e-16 be called a "grain" and that 5.0e-324 be called a "speck".
02:56:46 <tswett> That would probably make sense.
02:57:12 <tswett> > [1.0 - 1, 1.0000000000000001 - 1, 1.0000000000000002 - 1, 1.0000000000000003 - 1, 1.0000000000000004 - 1]
02:57:13 <lambdabot> [0.0,0.0,2.220446049250313e-16,2.220446049250313e-16,4.440892098500626e-16]
03:07:45 <tswett> So, about those groups with unsolvable word problems (i.e. undecidable equality).
03:08:02 <tswett> One of them is the group of (Collins 1986): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_problem_for_groups#Examples
03:08:16 <tswett> Which is somewhat complicated.
03:16:26 <tswett> I guess we probably don't have a better one.
03:16:35 <tswett> So, do I smell an esolang here?
03:20:29 <tswett> I think I do smell an esolang here.
03:20:52 <tswett> Take Collins' group there. Just come up with some notation for concisely expressing elements of the group, and that's the language itself.
03:21:05 <tswett> The semantics: you "run" a program by trying to reduce it to the identity word.
03:25:05 <tswett> Wait a minute, that group of Collins is pretty much just a hacked-up version of a semigroup by Céjtin.
03:26:02 <tswett> This variant of said semigroup is so simple that I can easily give an entire presentation for the whole thing in one IRC message:
03:26:51 <tswett> ac = ca; ad = da; bc = cb; bd = db; ce = eca; de = edb; cca = ccae
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03:31:12 <Moon__> `fetch http://pastebin.com/raw/BGTV9E93
03:31:15 <HackEgo> 2016-05-05 02:31:12 URL:http://pastebin.com/raw/BGTV9E93 [3761] -> "BGTV9E93" [1]
03:31:23 <Moon__> someone compile that as bin/ciol
03:32:16 <Moon__> im not too good with gcc, i leave that to my ide :p
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03:44:46 <pikhq> I'm here, but I'm not alive.
03:46:02 <Moon__> power =ful linux/unix like interface on your android'
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03:47:21 <Moon__> How do i tell a linux os to allow a file to be executed without chmod?
03:47:37 <Moon__> and in such a way i dont have to repeated that trick every time
03:48:08 <pikhq> You don't, really. If you want a file to be executable you have to use chmod on it first.
03:48:24 <oerjan> `` gcc -x c -o bin/ciol BGTV9E93 # oh well
03:49:04 <pikhq> Though, most things that generate executables will set things as executable for you.
03:49:23 <oerjan> pikhq: well there _is_ a way. it might not be a good idea...
03:49:23 <tswett> If you use NTFS as your root filesystem, won't that effectively make everything +x? (Note: this is probably a very bad idea.)
03:49:39 <pikhq> NTFS is not usable as a root filesystem.
03:49:51 <pikhq> At least, not on Linux with current NTFS implementations.
03:50:18 <pikhq> As I understand it, in principle you could implement a Unix system with NTFS as the root FS, but you couldn't use ntfs-3g for it.
03:50:40 <pikhq> Because it does little tricks like making everything +x.
03:52:03 <coppro> pikhq: http://www.tuxera.com/community/ntfs-3g-faq/#rootfs
03:52:07 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/mk
03:52:07 <tswett> NTFS probably doesn't let you make a filename containing nearly arbitrary bytes.
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03:52:16 <tswett> Does NTFS let you have a backslash in the name of a file?
03:52:47 <pikhq> Shockingly, it does.
03:52:53 <pikhq> It's Win32 that doesn't.
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03:53:41 <tswett> I am in fact surprised by this.
03:54:00 <tswett> How about a forward slash?
03:54:20 <pikhq> I don't think it does.
03:54:57 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/echo-p
03:55:00 <pikhq> But, it doesn't matter for purposes of implementing POSIX. POSIX doesn't require you to be able to store arbitrary bytes in a filename.
03:55:36 <pikhq> http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/basedefs/V1_chap03.html#tag_03_278 Just [A-Za-z0-9._-]*
03:57:11 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/echo-p%3Ap
03:57:55 <Moon__-> something familiar and good for usage inside shellscript
03:58:19 <oerjan> Moon__-: note that mk in shell will behave like `` mk does in HackEgo, not like `mk
03:58:31 <oerjan> so it's a little more awkward to use
03:59:05 <oerjan> as long as you don't need 's inside it...
03:59:36 <oerjan> Moon__-: you probably want mkx too, then
03:59:52 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/mk
03:59:54 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/mkx
04:00:28 <tswett> Apparently filenames in Windows can't end with a dot or space.
04:00:33 <oerjan> HackEgo: your utilities are spreading!
04:01:22 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
04:02:28 <Moon__-> Hackegos utilities are amazing :P
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04:06:12 <Moon__-> `mkx mkcmd//'key=$@ && echo "$key" && chmod+x "$key"'
04:06:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `mv: not found
04:07:33 <oerjan> Moon__-: that's buggy, also how is it better than `` chmod +x
04:07:37 <Moon__-> mkcmd Would be good for external files'
04:09:09 <oerjan> `mkx bin/mkcmd//chmod +x "$1" && echo "$1"
04:10:05 <oerjan> you don't need to make a variable just to refer to an argument, also there were two errors, and i think putting the echo last gives better error messages
04:10:13 <HackEgo> chmod: cannot access `fnord': No such file or directory
04:10:25 <oerjan> (by not also doing the echo)
04:18:01 <oerjan> several people made implementations.
04:25:51 <Cale> http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2725 Adam Yedidia has explicitly constructed a Turing machine with 7918 states whose halting is independent of ZFC set theory.
04:33:05 <Moon__-> porting mk over to it made things easier for me
04:41:47 <oerjan> Cale: already linked, currently reading
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05:18:22 <shachaf> oerjan is going to rise from the dead p. soon, though
05:19:38 <Moon-> Shachaf, what would be a safe command identifier for a new bot?
05:21:49 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
05:21:58 <oerjan> technically ~ is taken
05:22:21 <lambdabot> ENVA 050350Z 09004KT CAVOK 05/M00 Q1021 RMK WIND 670FT 14008KT
05:22:25 <lambdabot> KOAK 050353Z 25009KT 10SM FEW019 FEW100 BKN180 16/10 A2988 RMK AO2 SLP118 T01560100
05:23:09 <oerjan> i suppose that's not in use
05:23:26 <oerjan> although it might be in danger of being used by humans
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05:24:30 <oerjan> ( if you don't think triggering bots accidentally is annoying, go ahead )
05:24:31 <idris-bot> (input):1:60: error: expected: "#",
05:25:07 <shachaf> to be fair, bots that respond with more than one line of output like that are annoying in themselves
05:25:46 <shachaf> lambdabot: this means you hth
05:26:55 <zgrep> shachaf: At least it stopped itself at 5.
05:27:38 <oerjan> Moon-: EgoBot isn't present at the moment.
05:28:06 <oerjan> hm gregor isn't even online now
05:28:24 <shachaf> apparently oerjan has a thing about presents
05:29:23 <oerjan> yes. also my priority queue more resembles a stack.
05:29:45 <shachaf> well, i'm not objecting to the timing
05:29:59 <shachaf> just saying that you were unhappy at one time
05:30:11 <shachaf> or maybe obligated to act unhappy, it's not clear
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05:30:29 <shachaf> going to a talk by wadler tomorrow
05:30:40 <scriptobot> Moon- is 4c014a81@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.74.129
05:30:50 <shachaf> scriptobot: and who are you?
05:30:57 <oerjan> shachaf: make sure to criticize his lexical comment syntax
05:31:12 <shachaf> Moon-: the joke was that i started my sentence with "and" hth
05:32:00 <oerjan> for want of a nail, the joke was lost
05:33:52 <shachaf> for want of a nale, the sabine was lost
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05:35:36 <shachaf> so how often do they hold the elections for king of norway
05:36:12 <scriptobot> Moon- is 4c014a81@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.74.129
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05:57:09 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm not sure if there's ever been one hth
05:57:31 <shachaf> how's the current one doing in the polls
05:57:39 <oerjan> and i don't think so. the current king is like ridiculously hard-working.
05:57:57 <shachaf> sounds like a good contrast
05:58:07 <shachaf> you can't be like him if you want to defeat him
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05:59:49 <Moon-> what would be a good way to set up a shell bot?
06:01:46 <oerjan> even Gregor's bots have security flaws.
06:02:00 <oerjan> although mostly because he's never around to fix them.
06:02:14 <oerjan> (Gregor being HackEgo's writer)
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07:11:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: shootamaninreno: not found
07:26:30 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] se describe en las notas al pie. ¿Porqué no los dos? Nadie lo sabe.
07:26:41 <HackEgo> hppavilion is the generator including, but not limited to, hppavilion[1], hppavilion[2], and hppavilion[42]. hppavilion is of length 37-42i-28j+4k-28ij+38ik+62jk+20ijk
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07:49:25 <shachaf> oerjan: oh, what's-her-name's ring of water breathing protects against the cold
07:49:32 <shachaf> oerjan: so now she's going to freeze to death or something?
07:50:18 <oerjan> shachaf: i thought of that. hopefully they can switch quickly enough.
07:50:58 <shachaf> i guess she could also take the cloak
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09:21:34 <fizzie> shachaf: I honestly thought both of thems were dudes for this whole time.
09:22:06 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, fizzolist?
09:22:23 <fizzie> Sure, except I use the feed.
09:22:41 <shachaf> if you use the feed how come you never notify the rest of us
09:22:50 <fizzie> I think I've done it twice.
09:23:42 <fizzie> No, three (3) times, for 956, 958 and 960.
09:24:44 <fizzie> I usually read these things in the train, and it's inconvenient to come here and `olist, and by the time I'm wherever I'm going, I've already forgotten.
09:25:23 <shachaf> Train IRC is inconvenient?
09:25:27 <oerjan> shachaf: it seems that sorear has been programming a more direct logic search in that Laconic language
09:26:19 <oerjan> he's posting comments about it on aaronson's blog
09:26:25 <Cale> cool, so we might get even smaller state counts :D
09:26:49 <shachaf> I wonder why he scrapped IRC. If he did.
09:27:20 <oerjan> well i haven't seen them give a count of the states yet. (his version used nullary functions which aren't supported by the Laconic -> TM compiler)
09:27:55 * oerjan wouldn't know since he scrapped #haskell >:/
09:29:18 <b_jonas> oerjan: and also probably has lots of bugs
09:30:13 <oerjan> b_jonas: yeah he mentioned some bugs. i'm only on comment #57.
09:30:23 <oerjan> (that thread grew fast)
09:36:34 <oerjan> next comment mentions unlambda and brainfuck
09:57:31 <oerjan> "If this indeed works, then Adam predicts that it will indeed lead to a TM with fewer states than what you get from Friedman’s statement — he says your program is about as complicated as his program for the Riemann hypothesis, which suggests that we might get under 6000 states."
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10:07:08 <b_jonas> oerjan: one problem with these sorts of programs is that they're hard to debug
10:07:44 <b_jonas> you have to add lots of debug code (in the program definitely, possibly also into the compiler too) to check that the program behaves like you want
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11:50:27 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 14h 19m 11s ago: <hppavilion[1]> F24DBA5FB0A30E26E83B2AC5B9E29E1B161E5C1FA7425E73043362938B9824chaf <-- beat THAT!
11:51:37 <boily> @tell hppavilion[1] you deserve a mapole thwack for that outrageous pun hth
11:51:51 <boily> @tell hppavilion[1] (pretty creative, though)
11:54:41 <int-e> it's too long for sha1, too short for sha256...
11:56:25 <int-e> and google hasn't seen that hex number either
11:58:35 <boily> int-ello. maybe it's SHA-224?
12:00:18 <boily> @ask hppavilion[1] which was the actual hash you hashachafed shachaf with?
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12:17:13 <int-e> boily: it would have to be sha-248
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12:25:10 <fizzie> It was alleged to be SHA-256.
12:25:18 <fizzie> Maybe a byte got lost.
12:25:42 <fizzie> Or maybe it's behind the chaf.
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12:35:06 <int-e> or inside... it's 3/4 hexadecimal after all
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13:33:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Occular * New user account
13:47:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nullary]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46925 * Occular * (+926) Created page with "[[Nullary]] is a [[No-code]] esolang created by [[occular]]. == History == The language was conceived in May 2016, as a possible answer to the question "What would be next s..."
13:47:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nullary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46926&oldid=46925 * Occular * (+0)
13:48:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nullary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46927&oldid=46926 * Occular * (+4)
13:48:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nullary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46928&oldid=46927 * Occular * (+8)
13:49:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nullary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46929&oldid=46928 * Occular * (-24)
13:50:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[No-code esolang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46930 * Occular * (+113) Created page with "A no-code esolang either ignores or actively refuses any sort of input to the language interpreter or executable."
13:50:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[No-code esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46931&oldid=46930 * Occular * (+5)
13:52:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46932&oldid=46832 * Occular * (+111)
13:55:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46933&oldid=46932 * Occular * (+82)
13:55:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hipster]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46934 * Occular * (+129) Created page with "== Description == What, you don't already know about the definition of Hipster? Get out of here. You're a joke. Get off my lawn."
13:56:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hipster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46935&oldid=46934 * Occular * (+39)
13:57:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hipster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46936&oldid=46935 * Occular * (-8)
13:59:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hipster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46937&oldid=46936 * Occular * (+4)
14:00:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hipster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46938&oldid=46937 * Occular * (+42)
14:01:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nullary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46939&oldid=46929 * Occular * (+27)
14:02:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nullary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46940&oldid=46939 * Occular * (+1)
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14:04:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nullary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46941&oldid=46940 * Occular * (+217)
14:06:32 * coppro requests an invitation to use IBM's quantum computer
14:06:41 <coppro> probably should have name-dropped IQC, actually
14:22:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46942&oldid=46933 * Occular * (+106)
14:27:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Shatner]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46943 * Occular * (+1455) Created page with "Shatner is an [[esolang]] created by [[occular]]. == History == The language was conceived in May 2016, as a possible answer to the question "How could I embody the spirit o..."
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14:38:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Shatner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46944&oldid=46943 * Occular * (+36)
14:38:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Shatner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46945&oldid=46944 * Occular * (+1)
14:39:23 <ais523> new record for the smallest program whose halting problem is provably undecidable under ZFC (it's a Turing machine with 7918 states and two symbols, that starts from a blank tape)
14:39:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Shatner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46946&oldid=46945 * Occular * (+49)
14:43:13 <ais523> (source: http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2725)
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14:55:55 <lambdabot> Busy Beaver problem: a(n) = maximal number of steps that an n-state Turing m...
14:56:24 <ais523> (the joke is that the fifth element isn't known; all we have is a lower bound, which is 47176870
14:57:54 <ais523> interestingly, the sequence appears to be unique in OEIS despite being only four elements long
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15:04:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Occular]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46947 * Occular * (+84) Created page with "Occular designed the following languages: * [[Nullary]] * [[Shatner]] * [[Hipster]]"
15:04:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Occular]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46948&oldid=46947 * Occular * (-2)
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15:27:20 <b_jonas> ais523: and yes, we were talking about that new Busy Beaver article on the channel. I think you're the third who brought it up independently.
15:27:34 <b_jonas> ais523: I guessed you'd be interested
15:27:36 <ais523> well it is clearly ontopic
15:27:48 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, I already added one of the languages used to the wiki
15:27:50 <ais523> given that it mentions brainfuck and lambda independently, also me
15:28:10 <ais523> the comments have sort-of collapsed into Turing Machine golf
15:28:58 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but I'm a bit afraid they'll all just write untested code and not bother to properly test that it works. testing in this case isn't easy, it needs lots of extra debug code in the source code, and possibly some debug stuff in the compiler or interpreter.
15:29:31 <ais523> at least with a goldbach conjecture counterexample search, which most of the golfing is focusing on
15:29:36 <ais523> it's relatively easy to check whether it's working by hand
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16:38:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Shatner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46949&oldid=46946 * Occular * (+5)
16:38:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Occular]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46950&oldid=46948 * Occular * (-82) Blanked the page
16:39:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Occular]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46951 * Occular * (+82) Created page with "AlexH designed the following languages: * [[Nullary]] * [[Shatner]] * [[Hipster]]"
16:39:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nullary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46952&oldid=46941 * Occular * (+5)
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18:07:55 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Huh. cpressy favourited the repo with that language (laconic, iirc) in it
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18:52:16 <\oren\> why is c++ string missing search and replace?
18:52:41 <ais523> \oren\: because it's hard to implement efficiently
18:53:09 <ais523> and C and C++ tend to avoid making expensive operations easy to use, so as to prevent people using them by mistake
18:53:57 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
18:55:04 <\oren\> well thats partially why my company has its own string and array classes
18:56:26 <\oren\> poor standard libraries hinder interoperability by encouraging nih
18:58:47 <\oren\> now we have to write conversions between n different string classes
19:00:02 <ais523> so why can't you write a search and replace /function/ that operates on std::strings?
19:00:08 <ais523> rather than needing it to be a message?
19:00:51 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:03:27 <\oren\> not sure but i think the string class we have is also unicode aware and threadsafe...
19:03:36 <ais523> unicode aware makes sense
19:03:54 <ais523> threadsafe may or may not make sense depending on what you're doing, general-purpose threadsafety comes at quite a large performance cost
19:09:04 <\oren\> i wonder if the fact we compile everythong as c++ 98 has anything to do with it
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19:18:45 <lambdabot> boily said 7h 27m 7s ago: you deserve a mapole thwack for that outrageous pun hth
19:18:45 <lambdabot> boily said 7h 26m 53s ago: (pretty creative, though)
19:18:45 <lambdabot> boily asked 7h 18m 27s ago: which was the actual hash you hashachafed shachaf with?
19:26:22 <hppavilion[1]> An image-based language where lossy compression doesn't completely ruin the program
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19:46:11 <mtve> plz allow me a bit of promotion - http://conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=576&p=30646#p30646
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20:10:18 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
20:23:14 <notfowl> ais523: you want to scrutinize fowltalk? Tell me about how feather is way better etc https://bitbucket.org/fowlmouth/idk
20:24:18 <ais523> I can't relaly figure out what's going on from code if it's spread over that many files
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20:36:40 -!- Reece` has quit (Quit: Alsithyafturttararfunar).
20:39:24 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
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20:56:56 <ais523> notfowl: I still can't figure out what's going on, but it at least doesn't look anything like Feather
20:57:11 <ais523> in general, that project isn't in a state that you can really show to other people yet
20:58:59 <notfowl> I haven't written any docs and comments are equally sparse yes
21:15:33 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:28:25 <hppavilion[1]> One of the things that disappoints me in code golf is that all challenges are simple; I'd like to see codegolf with a challenge for a BIG thing, the kind of program that can't be in <100 characters in any modern languages
21:28:47 <hppavilion[1]> Then we'd have people making GolfScript extensions with GUI and such
21:32:05 -!- tromp_ has joined.
21:34:46 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:35:25 <pikhq> I've done HTTP as a one-liner in bash, so... :)
21:36:57 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
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21:55:22 <pikhq> I think about 100 bytes; I'd have to find it to be sure though.
22:02:48 -!- PinealGlandOptic has joined.
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22:27:08 <ais523> most of these Internet standards are qutie simple
22:27:29 <ais523> so HTTP as a bash oneliner is reasonable, it'd basically just be a case of parsing the URL and fitting it into a minimal request template, wouldn't it?
22:27:48 <ais523> trying to handle things like redirects correctly (which would be needed to be spec-compliant) would probably make it somewhat longer though
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22:56:01 -!- shikhin has changed nick to vehk.
22:56:04 -!- vehk has changed nick to shikhin.
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23:02:27 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
23:02:37 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
23:06:32 <\oren\> the next version of neoletters will include non breaking snake characters
23:13:11 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:15:38 <hppavilion[1]> What is the most complicated, bloated machine we could make
23:15:45 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Good, I asked you if you were going to do that
23:16:00 <hppavilion[1]> That we can still get away with calling a "Calculator"
23:19:59 -!- idolbot has joined.
23:20:22 <idolbot> moon_: (help [<plugin>] [<command>]) -- This command gives a useful description of what <command> does. <plugin> is only necessary if the command is in more than one plugin.
23:20:35 <hppavilion[1]> moon_: Everybody can make their IRC bots work but me xD
23:20:40 <moon_> ill set it up in the backround
23:20:41 <idolbot> hppavilion[1]: Error: "hi" is not a valid command.
23:20:45 <idolbot> hppavilion[1]: Error: "test" is not a valid command.
23:20:54 <idolbot> hppavilion[1]: Error: "kill" is not a valid command.
23:20:57 <idolbot> hppavilion[1]: Error: "hi" is not a valid command.
23:21:03 <idolbot> hppavilion[1]: Error: "crush" is not a valid command.
23:21:05 <idolbot> moon_: Error: "commands" is not a valid command.
23:21:07 <idolbot> hppavilion[1]: You've given me 5 invalid commands within the last minute; I'm now ignoring you for 10 minutes.
23:21:08 -!- Akaibu has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
23:21:09 <idolbot> moon_: Error: "command" is not a valid command.
23:21:36 <moon_> i didnt write the whole thing :P
23:21:42 <hppavilion[1]> moon_: Did you make idolbot, or is it something from GitH- Ah, OK
23:21:45 <moon_> i never added that one
23:22:29 <moon_> its github, i wrote in some code to patch some problems
23:22:36 <moon_> im too lazy to make one myself
23:22:40 <moon_> im working on it still
23:24:25 <idolbot> moon_: Error: "unignore" is not a valid command.
23:24:36 <moon_> ill edit out the ignore thing
23:24:51 <idolbot> moon_: Error: "exit" is not a valid command.
23:24:56 <idolbot> moon_: Error: "end" is not a valid command.
23:25:04 -!- idolbot has quit (Quit: Ctrl-C at console.).
23:29:52 -!- ybden has changed nick to FireFal.
23:31:12 -!- FireFal has changed nick to ybden.
23:33:06 <hppavilion[1]> Shift, Control, Alt, Super, Mega, Ultima, Uber, Meta, Escape, AltGr, F[1-9a-fA-F], Fn, Hm...
23:33:22 <hppavilion[1]> Imagine a computer where the keyboard literally translated to ASM instructions at runtime...
23:34:22 <ais523> now I want to know what sort of keyboard has an Ultima modifier
23:35:31 <moon_> also, hppa, im basically using this bot as a framework to build a good one off of
23:36:43 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: In this, key (combinations) would literally map directly to short ASM macro blocks
23:36:59 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in).
23:37:38 <hppavilion[1]> (ctrl, alt, fn, shift, and the arrow keys map to a second byte that modifies the first byte)
23:38:01 <Phantom_Hoover> (starting with why you think assembly is ever executed by anything)
23:38:16 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Well obviously, it wouldn't be executing assembly
23:38:20 <moon_> first off, brainfuck interpreter
23:38:22 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: But I'm talking from the programmer POV
23:38:53 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Well, the OS, on boot, generates a table in RAM that holds pointers to short executables
23:39:09 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, that wasn't the best phrasing
23:39:20 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: "macro" as in keyboard macro, I guess
23:39:27 <ais523> what about just having alt/meta toggle bit 7, ctrl toggle bit 6, shift toggle bit 5
23:39:44 <ais523> I like this approach because it is temptingly similar to the way ASCII actually works, yet different enough to throw you if you try to use it in practice
23:39:49 <Phantom_Hoover> so a system where code is executed in response to user input?
23:39:50 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Because there are more than 64 keys, IIRC?
23:40:03 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: right, there are some duplicates if you use that system
23:40:04 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: You hit a key and it directly executes a program
23:40:14 <ais523> however you will also need keys for triggering inputs and the like
23:40:32 <Phantom_Hoover> lik ais523 is probably trying to explain, you can't actually do that
23:40:56 <Phantom_Hoover> you need pretty sophisticated code to actually read from the keyboard
23:41:11 <ais523> well if you're being really eso
23:41:21 <ais523> suppose you have a CPU that can handle dc on the clock line
23:41:23 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: I know firsthand how much of a PITA keyboard input is
23:41:26 <ais523> (most modern ones can't but there are ones that can)
23:41:37 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: This is specifically for an esoteric processor or emulator
23:41:43 <ais523> then you take the keyboard controller input, and intentionally misconnect it to the clock line rather than the interrupt controller
23:41:51 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, well you could do the SNES code injection thing where you jump into a DMA input buffer
23:42:00 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that was my first thought
23:42:03 <hppavilion[1]> And the best part is that it's a state machine; hitting "a" might update the jump table
23:42:04 <ais523> but manual clocking is funnier
23:42:06 <Phantom_Hoover> but obviously that doesn't work on any system that doesn't use DMA input buffers
23:42:28 <hppavilion[1]> (or, more accurately, change the pointer to the jump table)
23:42:47 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], it seems like it'd be very easy to just implement a non-eso system on top of this
23:43:01 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: But it'd also be easy to implement an eso system on top of it
23:43:28 <Phantom_Hoover> unwinding the way it does I/O has been, uh, interesting
23:44:42 -!- cripotos has joined.
23:44:44 <ais523> huh, apparnetly underclocking is a thing
23:44:48 <ais523> just like overclocking is
23:44:51 <ais523> I went and looked it up
23:45:45 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, mostly used for badly-written old software that's tied to the clock speed, right?
23:45:49 <ais523> hmm, I wonder how many guesses it would take to guess which country Phantom_Hoover is from, with the knowledge that English is a native language for him
23:46:18 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: apparently it's mostly used for extending laptop battery life, and to reduce heat dissipation
23:46:41 <shachaf> ais523: What about me? I'm told that English is the first language I spoke.
23:47:45 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: so's yours hth
23:48:14 <ais523> in how many countries is "hoover" the standard name for a vacuum cleaner?
23:48:25 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:48:29 <shachaf> I've never heard it used in this country.
23:48:48 <shachaf> That's the one I'm talking about. Never heard it.
23:49:05 <cripotos> in europe the synoym of vacuum cleaner is dyson
23:49:17 -!- tromp_ has joined.
23:49:27 <ais523> hmm, so this website tried to run a 1 GHz CPU at 100 MHz and it failed, but 600 MHz succeeded
23:49:48 <ais523> this disappoints the electronic engineer in me
23:49:56 <Phantom_Hoover> despite dyson only entering the vacuum cleaner market in the 90s
23:50:01 <ais523> I'm guessing it's somehow related to DRAM/capacitors
23:50:10 <Phantom_Hoover> cripotos, are you trolling or are you actually this dense
23:50:43 <Phantom_Hoover> would you described yourself as locked or unlocked from the matrix of solidity
23:50:52 <int-e> `willkommen cripotos
23:50:55 <HackEgo> cripotos: Willkommen beim internationalen Zentrum für das Design und die Implementierung esoterischer Programmiersprachen! Für weitere Informationen besuchen Sie das Wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Für andere Arten der Esoterik gibt es #esoteric auf EFnet oder DALnet.)
23:51:20 <cripotos> i beliebe in the theories of rudolf steiner
23:51:52 <ais523> what interesting properties do matrices of imaginary numbers have?
23:52:18 <int-e> "At the beginning of the twentieth century, he founded an esoteric spiritual movement, anthroposophy..."
23:52:21 <ais523> not being closed under multiplication is something of a dealbreaker
23:52:24 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it can be hard to tell
23:52:29 <int-e> cripotos: you have the wrong channel.
23:52:44 <ais523> there aren't many other sorts of imaginary numbers
23:53:37 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, well you sort of assume people actually mean 'complex' because the pure imaginaries are quite pointless
23:53:52 <Phantom_Hoover> cripotos, well did you ever read anything by michael jackson?
23:53:54 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: i haven't read anything by banks yet
23:53:55 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:54:10 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: how could they be pointless when there's a whole line of them...
23:54:22 <shachaf> i've read some other books, though
23:54:29 <shachaf> and i still don't know which banks book to read
23:54:41 <shachaf> if you name one book i'll put it on my to-order list
23:55:00 <Phantom_Hoover> use of weapons second, and it's the best in the series
23:55:21 <Phantom_Hoover> cripotos, i'll only tell you if you divulge the methods by which you made the guess
23:55:31 -!- spiette has quit (Quit: :qa!).
23:55:51 <cripotos> i search german speaking slumber mothersa
23:56:41 <ais523> well, I'm going to take a guess and say that cripotos is from Switzerland
23:56:53 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: what about consider phlebas
23:57:09 <Phantom_Hoover> consider phlebas is kind of weird and not representative of the series
23:57:20 <pikhq> I'm not European, personally.
23:57:21 <ais523> cripotos: actually no, I checked what timezone you were in and geolocated your IP
23:57:32 <ais523> trying to guess the city like that is fraught with confusion
23:57:37 <ais523> but you can make a good guess as to the country
23:58:39 <fungot> int-e: summer fun deal." ?utilities routinely, these " black-outs" occur around the world properties. la fragmentation and increase the price.
23:58:44 <ais523> seriously, though, this conversation is all well and good, but you're in the wrong channel and it's offtopic
23:59:04 <cripotos> who reach bis to the römerzeit
23:59:06 <ais523> so you're probably better off going to a more appropriate channel (we suggested some in the welcome message)
23:59:55 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:00:20 <cripotos> oerjan, are you from schweden?
00:00:40 <cripotos> ais here is a esoteric channell
00:00:56 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
00:00:58 <oerjan> cripotos: norway actually
00:01:11 <int-e> this channel is about esoteric programming languages.
00:02:03 <ais523> it's programming for which being useful isn't something you care about
00:02:05 <cripotos> a term of the informatic world?
00:02:25 <ais523> yes, informatics/computer science
00:02:46 <oerjan> ais523: hi did you see aaronson's blog post yet, you were indirectly mentioned
00:02:57 <cripotos> ihr seid gar keine esoteriker?
00:03:04 <ais523> apparently this is the fourth time it's been mentioned in this channel (me mentioning it was the third)
00:03:13 <int-e> cripotos: what tipped you off?
00:03:29 <ais523> oerjan: it's inspired a golfing competition in the comments; I approve
00:03:30 <oerjan> ais523: i _think_ i first neener neener
00:03:59 <oerjan> ais523: yeah. i'm still reading those.
00:04:15 <ais523> do you have ideas about good algorithms for a 2-symbol Turing machine that searches for Goldbach conjecture counterexamples (aiming to minimize the number of states)?
00:04:23 <oerjan> cripotos: yes, scott aaronson is pretty definitely jewish
00:04:25 <ais523> I've been thinking about the problem myself but there are so many ways you could go
00:04:35 <ais523> (also I feel that fractran would be a better language for this sort of thing than TMs)
00:05:07 <int-e> yes, yes, computer science...
00:05:31 <oerjan> cripotos: informatikgurus ist korrekt
00:05:49 <cripotos> und wieso nennt ihr euch esoteric?
00:05:50 <int-e> for what it's worth, we're disappointet too
00:06:19 <int-e> (uh, the finishing t is a nice touch... unintentional though)
00:06:56 <int-e> because we're discussing programming languages that hardly anyone cares about
00:06:59 -!- idolbot has joined.
00:07:12 <idolbot> moon_: Error: "bf" is not a valid command.
00:07:17 <oerjan> cripotos: wie Hackego hat gesagt, EFNet hat ein #esoteric, dass vielleicht dir mehr gefällt.
00:07:22 <cripotos> ihr könnt machen was ihr wollt
00:07:27 * ais523 refuses to portmanteau that even though it's obvious
00:07:31 <moon_> *needs it to load the bf plugin, it ignores me*
00:07:33 <cripotos> ihr könnt hacken, programmieren
00:07:42 <cripotos> interessiert mich nen alten hut
00:08:35 <ais523> is this some sort of insul that I don't understand because my German isn't good enough?
00:08:49 <oerjan> cripotos: versuch das #esoteric auf EFNet
00:08:55 <cripotos> no its a definition of a super woman
00:08:57 <int-e> ais523: I've pondered it for 5 minutes, without concrete ideas. But there's no reason why it shouldn't be doable in perhaps 100 states.
00:09:07 <ais523> int-e: I believe the current record's around 80
00:09:28 <int-e> but it seems to be tedious
00:09:31 -!- idolbot has quit (Client Quit).
00:09:32 <ais523> (the original aaronson article had a solution with something like 5000, which the comments correctly identified as excessive)
00:09:50 <int-e> yeah, 4888 is the number in the paper
00:10:13 <cripotos> dort treiben sich kriminelle um
00:11:50 -!- cripotos has quit (Quit: Page closed).
00:13:21 <int-e> am I evil for not replying in german?
00:13:33 -!- idolbot has joined.
00:13:57 <int-e> glad that's settled then
00:14:01 <tswett> int-e: (NULL = NULL) hth
00:14:13 -!- Kaynato has joined.
00:14:21 <tswett> Hey, let me tell y'all about Oracle.
00:14:27 <oerjan> int-e: if only because it hurts my brain to do it instead
00:14:59 * oerjan forgot too many words, not to mention genders
00:15:20 <tswett> Here's an Oracle SQL problem: Given two character string values x and y, come up with a boolean expression which is true if the values are equal, false if they are not.
00:15:42 <tswett> There are two good ways of doing this.
00:16:01 <moon_> $brainfuck +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++o
00:16:01 <idolbot> moon_: Error: "brainfuck" is not a valid command.
00:16:02 <tswett> Solution 1: (x IS NOT NULL AND y IS NOT NULL AND x = y) OR (x IS NULL AND y IS NULL)
00:16:22 <tswett> Solution 2: (x || '.') = (y || '.')
00:18:44 <ais523> tswett: what does || do? defined-or?
00:18:58 <int-e> so NULL equals '.' now?
00:20:13 <idolbot> moon_: Error: "Brainfuck" is not a valid command.
00:20:18 <idolbot> moon_: Error: There is no command "brainfuck".
00:20:22 <idolbot> moon_: Error: There is no command "brainfuck".
00:20:25 <idolbot> moon_: Error: There is no command "bf".
00:20:35 <moon_> *is mad and not thinking*
00:20:41 <tswett> ais523: string concatenation.
00:21:25 <moon_> $plugin help Brainfuck
00:21:26 <idolbot> moon_: Error: "plugin" is not a valid command.
00:21:28 <ais523> doesn't NULL = NULL evaluate to NULL, though? and I'd expect concatenating to NULL to also give NULL
00:21:38 <ais523> athough as it's oracle sql it might be weird in these respects
00:21:57 <tswett> No, the concatenation operator treats NULL as the empty string.
00:22:05 <tswett> This is because Oracle doesn't actually have the empty string.
00:22:28 <ais523> are '' and NULL synonyms in string columns?
00:22:31 <ais523> that seems very broken to me
00:22:40 <tswett> They are synonyms, yes.
00:23:35 <tswett> '' isn't the empty string, it's NULL.
00:23:41 <ais523> so, say, '' = 'foo' evaluates to NULL?
00:23:56 <ais523> this is PHP/JavaScript levels of broken :-)
00:24:52 <int-e> oh great. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/203493/why-does-oracle-9i-treat-an-empty-string-as-null
00:26:51 <oerjan> <ais523> is this some sort of insul that I don't understand because my German isn't good enough? <-- i'm going to assume e was alluding to some kind of matriarchal esoteric fertility cult.
00:29:25 <tswett> So, I have a question!
00:29:33 -!- boily has joined.
00:29:35 <tswett> This semigroup presentation has undecidable equality: ac = ca; ad = da; bc = cb; bd = db; ce = eca; de = edb; cca = ccae
00:29:55 <int-e> oerjan: yeah he was polite; the most impolite word was "b[e]schiss", something like a ripoff.
00:30:12 <oerjan> <moon_> *is mad and not thinking* <-- bad combination. btw have you tried the /me irc command?
00:30:21 <tswett> Notice that all rules preserve the subsequence which consists of only the "c"s and "d"s.
00:30:41 <tswett> And "a" and "b" commute with "c" and "d". "e" doesn't commute with either.
00:31:23 <int-e> oerjan: I also think you got the gist of what [s]he(oh the e was intentional) wrote there right... and it didn't make more sense in german either.
00:32:34 <boily> quinthellopia. braindrain.
00:32:42 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 5h 12m 50s ago: Just break it if you want to know
00:32:56 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
00:33:07 <boily> quintopia: how's the starbucksing?
00:33:32 <oerjan> <tswett> Why? <-- wild guess would be "you can encode a TM in that" hth
00:33:45 -!- idolbot has quit (Quit: Ctrl-C at console.).
00:34:27 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
00:34:40 <oerjan> lhoily (now i'm _really_ wondering if i've lost count)
00:35:19 <moon_> ok, brainfuck might work no
00:35:26 -!- idolbot has joined.
00:35:31 <idolbot> moon_: Error: "brainfuck" is not a valid command.
00:36:54 <hppavilion[1]> moon_: WE DO NOT NEED ANOTHER BF INTERPRETER IN THIS CHANNEL. HTH.
00:37:34 <moon_> i get that, im trying to figure out the plugin frameork, then ill do something ne
00:37:38 <HackEgo> brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs. bf -c -t "+>+++++>+++" | mklang --array
00:37:48 <hppavilion[1]> moon_: Why not write a ciol interpreter or something though?
00:38:46 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: What is the domain of the function where the codomain is Terrible Esolangs used there?
00:38:57 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: mklang: command not found
00:39:07 <oerjan> <boily> quintopia: how's the starbucksing? <-- * sudden nostalgic flashback to seattle (not a starbucks, but a small coffee shop right by the university) as well as to when his stomach actually could drink mocha lattes...
00:39:43 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I don't know what "integral of the family of terrible esolangs" could mean.
00:40:02 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Does "family" have a mathematical definitication?
00:40:12 <boily> hppavilion[1]: hppavellon[1]. Canada doesn't exist, so it being red is preposterous hth
00:40:21 <tswett> Often, "family" just means "set".
00:40:24 <boily> oerjan: you seattled?
00:40:48 <idolbot> moon_: Error: You don't have the owner capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified.
00:41:03 <moon_> i need to fix that, too
00:41:07 <idolbot> hppavilion[1]: I don't recognize you.
00:41:11 <idolbot> hppavilion[1]: Error: "whoismoon_" is not a valid command.
00:41:17 <boily> we have a new bot?
00:41:33 <idolbot> boily: Error: "fnord?" is not a valid command.
00:41:33 <tswett> "Type" doesn't have a standard definition.
00:41:54 <tswett> Yeah, but there's no one single standard type theory.
00:41:55 <moon_> hppa, the bot itself is new, dumbo
00:41:58 <hppavilion[1]> boily: It ignores you if you enter too many incorrect commands
00:42:06 <moon_> i removed that hppa
00:42:07 <tswett> "Type" means "whatever 'type' means in the type theory you're using".
00:42:22 <moon_> well, really, set the limit absurdly high so nly a spambot can get that
00:42:50 <hppavilion[1]> moon_: I think spambots usually don't send 1000 mps
00:43:23 <moon_> no-one is gonna reach that without special care
00:43:27 -!- ybden has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:44:32 <moon_> i was thinking maybe something to keep us !bored when there is nothing to do lol
00:44:36 <hppavilion[1]> moon_: Wait, but then when it gets turned off we'll all be sad...
00:44:53 <moon_> i cant run it all night
00:47:05 -!- idolbot has quit (Quit: Ctrl-C at console.).
00:47:55 <boily> fungot: do you fnord, unless that weird uncommandable bot?
00:47:55 <fungot> boily: out of the spread the wealth of power and the service of the appropriate. 332163 counterparty. nelson learned that the ect legal dept. of the possible use of inside of that spread leaves plenty of time you have questions.
00:48:00 <boily> s/unless/not like/
00:49:14 -!- idolbot has joined.
00:49:19 <oerjan> <mtve> plz allow me a bit of promotion - http://conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=576&p=30646#p30646 <-- congrats!
00:49:20 <idolbot> moon_: Error: "unignore" is not a valid command.
00:49:37 <idolbot> moon_: Error: You don't have the owner capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified.
00:50:25 <idolbot> moon_: (help [<plugin>] [<command>]) -- This command gives a useful description of what <command> does. <plugin> is only necessary if the command is in more than one plugin.
00:51:01 -!- idolbot has quit (Client Quit).
00:51:04 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> (what is integral again?) <-- in calculus, integral is the inverse operation of derivative, hth
00:51:28 -!- idolbot has joined.
00:51:31 <idolbot> moon_: Error: You don't have the owner capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified.
00:51:52 <tswett> I should set up a VPS that I can use to give shell accounts to people.
00:52:12 <moon_> shell accounts for what?
00:52:18 <moon_> because that sounds nice
00:52:31 <tswett> Linux shell accounts. For them to use for whatever they want, I guess.
00:53:02 <moon_> i would donate if i could, cauz im lazy
00:53:18 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:53:46 <oerjan> <boily> oerjan: you seattled? <-- spring 1996
00:53:50 -!- idolbot has quit (Client Quit).
00:54:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:54:10 -!- idolbot has joined.
00:54:17 <idolbot> moon_: Error: You don't have the owner capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified.
00:54:18 <oerjan> <boily> Ah ah ah. <-- keeping count?
00:56:16 <moon_> im going to just write one from scratch
00:56:54 <moon_> im tired of setting up my plugins
00:57:14 <tswett> There have got to be IRC libraries to use, right?
00:57:45 <boily> <oerjan> <boily> Ah ah ah. <-- keeping count? <-- obviously.
00:59:11 <moon_> im definintly using a bit of ciol in it as well
00:59:25 <moon_> (intepretation for custom commands)
01:02:33 <HackEgo> flag of #esoteric? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:02:38 <HackEgo> #esoteric flag? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:03:05 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/*flag: No such file or directory
01:03:20 <HackEgo> wisdom/disflagrate wisdom/flagpole
01:03:27 <HackEgo> disflagrate v.t.perf.: a traditional technique from Poland (earliest attestation c. 1042) used to separate szoups. Nowadays, commercial production is entirely mechanized.
01:03:38 <HackEgo> A szoup a szilárd tápszereknek híg alakban való elkészítése a célból, hogy könnyebben emészthetők legyenek; a hígító anyag a viz, mely feloldja s magába veszi a tápanyag legértékesebb részeit.
01:04:42 <tswett> At first I wondered why it dropped the asterisks...
01:04:44 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. monqy is its centroïd. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across.
01:04:48 <tswett> The answer is it didn't.
01:05:12 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, bad paedagogy! <-- how are _you_ going to explain the `? brainfuck joke then?
01:05:13 <HackEgo> grep: color: No such file or directory
01:05:45 <oerjan> @tell Phantom_Hoover <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, bad paedagogy! <-- how are _you_ going to explain the `? brainfuck joke then?
01:05:50 <tswett> `` grep -r color wisdom
01:06:01 <HackEgo> wisdom/oregon:Oregon is the home of Oregano. Gregor used to take care of the color scheme, but then he left. \ wisdom/bleen:bleen is the color of the ocean and the trees \ wisdom/piet:Piet is a really colorful programming language. \ wisdom/cube:Cubes come in all sizes, colors and materials, but only one shape. The companion cube doe
01:06:29 <tswett> `` grep -rl color wisdom
01:06:31 <moon_> how was the color done?
01:06:32 <HackEgo> Cubes come in all sizes, colors and materials, but only one shape. The companion cube does not speak, however.
01:06:33 <HackEgo> wisdom/oregon \ wisdom/bleen \ wisdom/piet \ wisdom/cube \ wisdom/blæg \ wisdom/octarine
01:07:01 <tswett> moon_: mIRC color codes. Most IRC clients treat byte 3 as indicating color stuff.
01:07:01 <HackEgo> blaeg is a color that cannot exist under the current understanding of physics. It is used on the #esoteric flag, along with ultraviolet and whatever is convenient. It is a nullary color, meaning that it can be mixed with itself to produce the primary colors.
01:09:08 <moon_> `learn ciol is a language designed by moon_, it started as a scheme to annoy collegues by making a programming lanugage that has insults as commands
01:09:11 <tswett> A byte is a number from 0 to 255.
01:09:16 <HackEgo> Learned 'ciol': ciol is a language designed by moon_, it started as a scheme to annoy collegues by making a programming lanugage that has insults as commands
01:09:17 <tswett> 3 is one of those numbers.
01:09:43 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: So a 0x03 followed by a modifier changes color?
01:09:59 <tswett> Byte 3 is also known as 0x03, "ETX", and the Ctrl-C byte.
01:10:03 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: See "byte 3" sounds like "the third byte in a bytearray"
01:10:08 <tswett> Yeah. A 0x03 followed by one or two decimal digits.
01:10:20 <tswett> Optionally followed by a comma and one or two more decimal digits.
01:10:53 <moon_> read the ciol one :P
01:11:06 <oerjan> `sedlast s/colleg/colleag/
01:11:47 <boily> TIL there's something somewhere in Ubuntu that puts stuff you rm in the trash, even if you `rm -rf`ed it.
01:11:49 <HackEgo> ciol is a language designed by moon_, it started as a scheme to annoy colleagues by making a programming lanugage that has insults as commands
01:12:07 <boily> hppavilion[1]: yup. wut.
01:12:22 <boily> suddenly freed >100 GB on my hard drive.
01:12:41 <tswett> How does that work? Is it just a different version of "rm"? Or does it give things a different libc or whatever?
01:12:55 <HackEgo> ciol is a language designed by moon_, it started as a scheme to annoy colleagues by making a programming lanugage that has insults as commands.
01:13:02 <HackEgo> sed -i "$1" "$(lastfiles)"
01:13:07 <tswett> Oh, I thought hppavilion[1] had actually done it.
01:13:11 <HackEgo> hg log -l 1 --template "{files}\n"
01:13:21 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: No, you will notice that HackEgo didn't say anything
01:13:35 <tswett> And there's a space at the beginning of your message.
01:13:49 <tswett> Did you mean: And that the message has a bleeding space
01:14:02 <moon_> how would i color something red then?
01:14:31 <boily> hppavilion[1]: or maybe I'm confused. do not heed anything I write tonight as untarnished truth.
01:14:38 <tswett> With byte 3 followed by "04".
01:14:41 <oerjan> `mkx bin/sedlast files="$(lastfiles)"; sed -i "$1" "$files"; echo -n "$files//"; cat "$files"
01:14:58 <moon_> how would i give that to hackego?
01:14:58 <tswett> Hey, I wonder if that one command is still there...
01:15:35 <HackEgo> bin/sedlast files="$(lastfiles)"; sed -i "$1" "$files"; echo -n "$files
01:15:43 <oerjan> moon_: hppavilion[1] i think
01:15:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: grepgrep: not found
01:15:56 <tswett> `run echo -e '\000304Will this be red?'
01:15:57 <oerjan> `mkx bin/sedlast//files="$(lastfiles)"; sed -i "$1" "$files"; echo -n "$files//"; cat "$files"
01:16:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: kgrep: not found
01:16:28 <tswett> I'm kind of surprised that nobody's deleted the `loudly command.
01:16:32 <tswett> `loudly IT'S SO ANNOYING.
01:16:39 <oerjan> new rule: if you make new commands after someone has made an error, except to correct that error, you get banned </half kidding>
01:17:10 <tswett> `loudly Also it cuts off whatever it is that you're saying after a relatively small number of characters, since the color codes for this are pretty verbose and IRC doesn't have that long a limit.
01:17:12 <HackEgo> Also it cuts off whatever it is that you're sayin,
01:17:16 <oerjan> because reverting things is really annoying when two people are doing things simultaneously
01:17:27 <HackEgo> files="$(lastfiles)"; sed -i "$1" "$files"; echo -n "$files//"; cat "$files"
01:17:50 <oerjan> who the hell made erro
01:18:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: erro: not found
01:19:04 <oerjan> *sigh* i'm going to have to look at the repository again, don't i
01:19:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: blame: not found
01:19:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: blame: not found
01:19:42 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
01:19:52 <tswett> I coulda sworn we had `blame.
01:19:56 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: blame: command not found
01:20:08 <boily> `complain there is no blame.
01:20:13 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
01:20:21 <tswett> `run echo -e '\000305Will this be put into erro?'
01:20:30 <HackEgo> Will this be put into erro?
01:20:34 <HackEgo> cat: erro: No such file or directory
01:21:16 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access emotipros: No such file or directory
01:22:52 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/blame: line 1: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ /hackenv/bin/blame: line 2: syntax error: unexpected end of file
01:23:08 <moon_> you forgot that idiots
01:23:10 <HackEgo> moon_ moon_ moon_ moon_ moon_ moon_ moon_
01:23:31 <HackEgo> It was tswett's fault! Punish them!
01:23:32 <tswett> Who are "No" and "output"?
01:23:46 <tswett> `blame the demonic duck
01:23:47 <HackEgo> It was tswett's fault! Punish them!
01:23:55 <tswett> I wasn't expecting that.
01:24:20 <moon_> `culprits bin/blame
01:24:25 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1]
01:24:41 <HackEgo> echo "It was tswett's fault! Punish them!"
01:25:08 <moon_> `mkx bin/blame//echo it was "$1"'s fault! Punish them!
01:25:17 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/blame: line 1: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ /hackenv/bin/blame: line 2: syntax error: unexpected end of file
01:25:29 <moon_> `mkx bin/blame//echo it was "$1"s fault! Punish them!
01:25:35 <HackEgo> it was moons fault! Punish them!
01:25:51 <tswett> `mkx bin/blame//echo it was "$1"\'s fault! Punish them!
01:26:01 <moon_> `blame hppavilion[1]
01:26:03 <HackEgo> it was hppavilion[1] 's fault! Punish them!
01:26:03 <HackEgo> it was the Nazis's fault! Punish them!
01:26:21 <tswett> `mkx bin/blame//echo It was "$1"\'s fault! Punish them!
01:26:38 <tswett> So if you want to blame the person you're talking to, it's...
01:26:41 <HackEgo> It was you's fault! Punish them!
01:26:54 <tswett> Somewhere besides bin/blame?
01:27:01 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `bin/blame bin/blame2' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
01:27:19 <moon_> that makes it clunky
01:27:29 <moon_> *shall change it back in due time*
01:27:44 <HackEgo> It was tswett's fault! Punish them!
01:27:56 <tswett> Yo pongo los votos sólo por hppavilion[1].
01:28:05 <moon_> put the tswett joke in blame2
01:28:06 <tswett> Los otros son locos—yo los conozco.
01:28:20 <hppavilion[1]> moon_: If it's in normal blame, then people will be surprised by it
01:28:40 <hppavilion[1]> moon_: They'll `blame someone other than tswett, and it will say tswett instead
01:28:55 <hppavilion[1]> moon_: They'll be confused initially, then they'll `cat bin/blame and start laughing
01:29:02 <HackEgo> :-( \ !\.´ \ 99 \ 99bb \ advice \ bdsmreclist \ BGTV9E93 \ bin \ canary \ cat \ cdescs \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ Eternity \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hia \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ marsha \ misle \ oerjan \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ ReUariBw \ share \ So
01:29:55 <HackEgo> F="$(find wisdom -name "*$(echo "$1" | lowercase)*" -type f | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}//" | rnooodl; cat "$F" | rnooodl
01:30:45 <oerjan> <moon_> *shall change it back in due time* <-- seriously, learn to use /me
01:31:18 <tswett> /me pretends to try and fail to use the /me command.
01:31:23 -!- tromp_ has joined.
01:31:53 <oerjan> `` rm -v bin/"sedlast "*
01:31:56 <HackEgo> removed `bin/sedlast files="$(lastfiles)"; sed -i "$1" "$files"; echo -n "$files'
01:32:13 -!- Akaibu has joined.
01:32:18 <HackEgo> ciol is a language designed by moon_, it started as a scheme to annoy colleagues by making a programming lanugage that has insults as commands.
01:32:27 -!- Moon__ has joined.
01:32:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: checkkarma: not found
01:32:39 -!- centrinia has joined.
01:32:40 -!- moon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
01:32:44 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/lanug/langu/' wisdom/ciol
01:33:05 <HackEgo> wisdom/ciol//.iol is a language designed by moon_, it started as a scheme to annoy colleagues by making a programming language that has insults as commands.
01:33:27 <HackEgo> congratulate//ccho congratulations Moon_, you are the ruler of the chat!
01:34:01 <oerjan> shachaf: `sedlast is not safe against simultaneous editing :(
01:34:31 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: what happens is that someone stealth edited congratulate while i was using sedlast
01:34:34 -!- idolbot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
01:34:58 <tswett> `sedlast must be burned, as it can never be safely used.
01:34:58 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/./e/' congratulate
01:35:27 <HackEgo> grep: ../karma: No such file or directory
01:35:40 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 1: unknown command: `m' \ bin/congratulate2//echo congratulations "$1", you are the ruler of the chat!
01:35:41 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: burn: not found
01:35:50 -!- idolbot has joined.
01:36:18 <Moon__> ./congratulate hppavilion[1]
01:36:28 <Moon__> `congratulate hppavilion[1]
01:36:29 <HackEgo> congratulations Moon_, you are the ruler of the chat!
01:36:47 <oerjan> honestly, i'd prefer if HackEgo did _not_ take private messages.
01:36:58 <oerjan> it's such an awful mess.
01:37:05 <Moon__> `congratulate2 hppavilion[1]
01:37:05 <HackEgo> congratulations hppavilion[1] , you are the ruler of the chat!
01:37:17 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But that would have ruined my tswett joke earlier :/
01:37:30 <HackEgo> .iol is a language designed by moon_, it started as a scheme to annoy colleagues by making a programming language that has insults as commands.
01:37:36 * boily overthroes hppavilion[1] from his reign
01:37:43 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/./c/' wisdom/ciol
01:37:51 <HackEgo> It was oerjan 's fault! Punish them!
01:37:59 <HackEgo> It was tswett's fault! Punish them!
01:38:12 <HackEgo> It was tswett's fault! Punish them!
01:38:19 <oerjan> i recommend not annoying me any more at this point hth
01:38:30 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
01:38:31 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: de...vert?: not found
01:38:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cd: not found
01:39:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/ac/dc: No such file or directory
01:40:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: abdicate: not found
01:40:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: start: not found
01:41:28 <boily> `culprits bin/swat
01:41:36 <HackEgo> moon__ moon__ moon__ moon__ moon__ elliott shachaf elliott shachaf elliott shachaf
01:41:53 <HackEgo> drowning \ flipbird \ gaaan \ gaan \ kyaa \ shrug \ swatter \ useless
01:42:06 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: weapons: not found
01:42:11 <HackEgo> cat: share/weapons: No such file or directory
01:42:31 <HackEgo> lol \ 凸 \ ｶﾞ~(ﾟﾛﾟ;)~ﾝ \ (°Д°) \ (≧∇≦)/ \ ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ ーー蟲蟲 \ オラオラオラ（三･o･）三☆三（｀ε´三）無駄無駄無駄無駄
01:42:35 <HackEgo> invalid command ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
01:43:38 <HackEgo> It was tswett's fault! Punish them!
01:43:38 * Moon__ takes up from oerjan happily
01:44:27 <tswett> Lemme do myself a favor...
01:44:45 <HackEgo> It was 's fault! Punish them!
01:45:47 <tswett> Lemme try to figure this out.
01:46:09 <idolbot> Moon__: Error: "brainfuck" is not a valid command.
01:46:20 <idolbot> Moon__: Error: There is no command "brainfuck".
01:46:26 <idolbot> Moon__: (help [<plugin>] [<command>]) -- This command gives a useful description of what <command> does. <plugin> is only necessary if the command is in more than one plugin.
01:46:35 <idolbot> Moon__: Error: "Brainfuck" is not a valid command.
01:46:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /b: No such file or directory
01:46:59 <idolbot> tswett: Error: There is no command "brainfuck".
01:47:37 <tswett> `run bash -c "$(echo -e 'sed -i "s/tswett/tsw\0020ett/" bin/blame')"
01:47:51 <HackEgo> It was tswett's fault! Punish them!
01:48:20 <tswett> `run bash -c "$(echo -e 'sed -i "s/tsw\0020ett/tsw\0017ett/" bin/blame')"
01:48:31 <HackEgo> It was tswett's fault! Punish them!
01:49:10 -!- earenndil has joined.
01:49:21 <Moon__> `congratulate earenndil
01:49:22 <HackEgo> congratulations Moon_, you are the ruler of the chat!
01:49:46 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: fix it hth <-- fix what
01:50:02 <shachaf> 17:34 <oerjan> shachaf: `sedlast is not safe against simultaneous editing :(
01:50:03 -!- cnr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:50:15 -!- Elronnd has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
01:50:38 <shachaf> i thought you meant if the previous command edited multiple files
01:50:49 <shachaf> did i mention that i was reading messages on my phone and not paying a whole lot of attention hth
01:50:53 -!- cnr has joined.
01:51:06 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: disparage: not found
01:51:13 <shachaf> oerjan: anyway the obvious solution is to require the user of sedlast to specify the complete old filename and contents
01:51:25 -!- earenndil has changed nick to Elronnd.
01:51:25 <oerjan> * Moon__ takes up from oerjan happily <-- excellent, from now on it's your job to fix everything other people do wrong with HackEgo. good luck.
01:51:47 <Moon__> oh god *still keeps it tho*
01:52:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: congratulate: not found
01:52:09 <Moon__> `congratulate earenndil
01:52:11 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: congratulate: not found
01:52:30 <Moon__> `culprits bin/congratulate
01:52:40 <HackEgo> It was tswett's fault! Punish them!
01:52:48 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: Leaving).
01:53:11 <HackEgo> *grumbles something about a broken hacksaw*
01:53:26 <HackEgo> hppavillon[1] just melted off their fingers!
01:53:31 -!- newperson has joined.
01:53:36 <HackEgo> hppavillon[1] just got fried by jumpercables!
01:53:39 <HackEgo> hppavillon[1] has been badly maimed!
01:53:42 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: anyway the obvious solution is to require the user of sedlast to specify the complete old filename and contents <-- aka "making it 90% useless" hth
01:53:42 <HackEgo> hppavillon[1] just melted off their fingers!
01:54:00 <shachaf> oerjan: itym 100% useless hth
01:54:04 <HackEgo> newperson: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
01:54:36 <newperson> Moon__: u arent the most welcoming person
01:54:55 <Moon__> *curls up in a corner*
01:55:05 <oerjan> shachaf: well it _could_ still be slightly shorter than `` sed -i '...' '...'
01:55:17 <HackEgo> :-( \ !\.´ \ 99 \ 99bb \ advice \ bdsmreclist \ BGTV9E93 \ bin \ canary \ cat \ cdescs \ Complaints.mp3 \ congratulate \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ Eternity \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hia \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ marsha \ misle \ oerjan \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ ReUari
01:55:18 <newperson> Moon__: Given the repeated maming.
01:55:31 <Moon__> wait... hppa, stop faking
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01:56:28 <shachaf> oerjan: well i rounded from 99.9%
01:56:59 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: yeah you were so unsuspicious
01:57:11 <Moon__> <newperson> Moon__: u arent the most welcoming person
01:57:30 <Moon__> <newperson> Moon__: Given the repeated maming.
01:57:40 * oerjan swats hppavilion[1] -----###
01:57:46 <Moon__> you refered to yourself in that sentence
01:58:08 <HackEgo> Itymology is the science of understanding the true meaning of a statement.
01:58:15 <Moon__> [~Unsuspici@58-0-174-206.gci.net
01:58:22 <hppavilion[1]> Moon__: I MEANT that you were repeatedly maiming people
01:58:34 <Moon__> seemed like you ment yourself
01:58:43 <oerjan> Moon__: the maimings happened after newperson joined. i say it was legit, but no match for your superior suspicion hth
01:59:07 <oerjan> Moon__: also, get a client with tab completion hth
02:00:09 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] tswett tswett Moon__ Moon__ Moon__ Moon__ oerjan oerjan oerjan hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1] Moon__ Moon__ Moon__ hppavilion[1] oerjan Moon__ oerjan oerjan oerjan hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1] tswett hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1] tswett hppavilion[1] moon_ hppavilion[1] moon_ hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1] moon
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02:01:52 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> (Also, why does culprits list deleted files?) <-- so that we don't have to recreate a file just to check its history to see if it needs recreation, duh
02:02:11 <HackEgo> oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf nitia
02:03:29 <oerjan> `culprits bin/culprits
02:03:35 <HackEgo> int-e Jafet Jafet tswett tswett shachaf shachaf shachaf FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly shachaf
02:04:17 <HackEgo> hg log --removed -- "$1" | grep summary: | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}' | sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
02:04:39 <oerjan> shachaf: i think this channels is confused enough at the moment.
02:05:09 <shachaf> FireFly: initially, at least
02:05:14 <HackEgo> nitia is the inventor of all things. The BBC invented her.
02:05:25 <HackEgo> The BBC is the BreadBox Corporation. Its inventions include, without limitation, Muppets and tiny elfs.
02:05:48 <shachaf> `learn_append bbc Taneb invented it.
02:05:52 <HackEgo> Learned 'bbc': The BBC is the BreadBox Corporation. Its inventions include, without limitation, Muppets and tiny elfs. Taneb invented it.
02:06:25 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, gazpacho, Stephen Wolfram, Go, submarine jousting, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, Lambek's lemma, robots, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
02:06:58 <HackEgo> Progress has been made today. It was invented by Taneb.
02:07:05 <HackEgo> Robots are deterministic finite Belgians that repeat themselves. Taneb invented them.
02:07:34 <shachaf> that's a terrible wisdom entry
02:07:50 <shachaf> `` rm wisdom/robot; sed -i 's/robots, //' wisdom/tanebvention
02:08:00 <FireFly> looks like it was wisdoomed
02:08:27 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/progress/the BBC, progress/' wisdom/tanebvention
02:08:50 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, gazpacho, Stephen Wolfram, Go, submarine jousting, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, Lambek's lemma, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
02:08:50 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, if he never invents anything involving sex, then what's a D-module?
02:08:58 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
02:09:11 <HackEgo> Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented it.
02:09:16 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: just wait until you see HMS Pinafore hth
02:09:30 <oerjan> wait, if hppavilion[1] thinks a d-module involves sex, then what is it?
02:10:01 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It's a pun on... certain uses of the letter "D"
02:10:58 <shachaf> @google captain's song pinafore
02:10:59 <lambdabot> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Np-PjftJN8
02:11:11 <oerjan> certain uses to which i have not previously been introduced.
02:11:27 <boily> d-modules cannot involve sex. they are a tanebvention, and Taneb doesn't invent sex.
02:12:18 <oerjan> `learn Wisdoom is realizing just too late how you could have avoided your demise.
02:12:21 <HackEgo> Learned 'wisdoom': Wisdoom is realizing just too late how you could have avoided your demise.
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02:14:43 <oerjan> `le/rn hms pinafore//HMS Pinafore is just some infernal nonsense, according to general majority opinion.
02:15:08 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: so stupid it makes no sense even _after_ you've heard of it.
02:21:39 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] has 0 karma.
02:21:49 <HackEgo> oren has 1 karma. \ hppavilion[1] has -i karma
02:21:57 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo "$1 has $(lib/karma "$1") karma."
02:22:31 <hppavilion[1]> (I added that earlier because I didn't realize there was bin/karma)
02:23:15 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ count () { \ hg log --template '{desc}\n' | \ egrep '<[^]]*> karma\'$1 | \ fgrep -vix "<$2> karma$1 $2" | \ cut -d' ' -f3 | \ fgrep -cix "$2" \ } \ plus=$(count + "$1") \ minus=$(count - "$1") \ echo $(($plus-$minus))
02:23:47 <boily> can't leave someone's karma on a composite number.
02:24:32 <boily> it checks your current karma.
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03:28:42 <HackEgo> words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g' | rainwords
03:29:35 <HackEgo> trauboy ofc poo klosoppe whoh suspendemility aperprope compen dric lely sematione poing ferro make ten geor giosent suya pava lyce sphen twick condicallic djoyne diame
03:29:58 <HackEgo> sorcoin esfulcoin attercoin lenlecoin wakelxquocoin hildyncoin quotecoin discoin noobabtcoin bagcoin mechowelaguffainimetalkuncoin logcoin pringcoin quatcoin automecoin hightcoin maiiacoin ()coin vilinecoin agacoin
03:30:30 <oerjan> HackEgo: are you dying of old age and bitrot :(
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04:08:54 <greenlock> Write HackBot as a script and host is on HackBot?
04:09:58 <HackEgo> I bet you can't prove hppavilion[1] wrote this file
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04:13:39 <HackEgo> hg log --removed -- "$1" | grep summary: | sed "s/hppavilion\[1\]//g" | sed "s/ +/ /g" | sed "s/^ //" | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}'| sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
04:15:26 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/[|] sed[^|]*//' bin/culprits; culprits share/nothp
04:16:02 <HackEgo> hg log --removed -- "$1" | grep summary: | sed "s/ +/ /g" | sed "s/^ //" | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}'| sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
04:16:26 <Nathan2055> greenlock told me to come in here. I have no idea what's going on.
04:16:50 <oerjan> well right now here is pretty silent.
04:17:05 <oerjan> earlier there was a lot of bot chaos.
04:17:33 <oerjan> and before that there was a confused swiss who thought this was the other kind of #esoteric.
04:18:00 <HackEgo> Nathan2055: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
04:19:22 <Nathan2055> And I don't think I want to know what the "other kind of esoteric" is.
04:19:41 <oerjan> it's probably what you think it is.
04:20:21 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.
04:20:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: loins: not found
04:21:12 <tswett> `run sed 's/coin/loin/' < bin/coins > bin/loins
04:21:16 <tswett> `run chmod +x bin/loins
04:21:49 <oerjan> alas, `coins seems to have a tendency of timing out recently.
04:21:52 <Nathan2055> I don't want to know what's going on right now.
04:21:59 <HackEgo> whenloin triptloin swayloin bibaloin gratloin valloin p''loin factratedloin htafnfaloin marmloin convenloin carandolumloin manloin dumpetloin deliumloin lockzloin fernsilloin nicmefulloin immtloin wheadactalk:brandloin
04:22:14 * Nathan2055 goes back to discussing the possibility of RAIDing tape drives in #wikipedia-en
04:22:19 <oerjan> Nathan2055: tswett is investigating loin types
04:22:27 <tswett> Buy wheadactalk:™ brand loin!
04:22:45 <Nathan2055> Can I assume loin means something different in this universe?
04:22:51 <oerjan> tswett: do they come with free girding?
04:23:52 <oerjan> maybe i should upgrade, then.
04:25:14 <oerjan> Nathan2055 seems to have a weak mind. no one mention the name of our most famous esolang, please.
04:28:32 <Nathan2055> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck
04:28:47 <HackEgo> brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs. bf -c -t "+>+++++>+++" | mklang --array
04:29:19 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/[.]/. The name is a euphemism for "beef"./' wisdom/brainfuck
04:29:37 <oerjan> there are a lot of compilers.
04:29:50 <Nathan2055> Like 90% of the messages in this channel make no sense.
04:29:51 <HackEgo> brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs. The name is a euphemism for "beef". bf -c -t "+>+++++>+++" | mklang --array
04:30:16 <oerjan> we don't murder people for the truth here. now puns on the other hand...
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04:31:32 <oerjan> puckipedia: what do you do?
04:32:02 <oerjan> i don't think puckipedia is a bot, although i don't remember em speaking either, so i could be wrong.
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04:36:39 <oerjan> nope, not a bot. he has a website.
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04:38:53 <oerjan> impressive credentials
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04:46:59 <HackEgo> words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g' | rainwords
04:47:51 <HackEgo> Argument "${1---eng-1M" isn't numeric in int at /hackenv/bin/words line 148.
04:47:56 <HackEgo> Argument "words" isn't numeric in int at /hackenv/bin/words line 148.
04:48:13 <HackEgo> scricoin immcoin rincoin heatncoin enicoin decacoin rhercoin potecoin wamcoin celcoin noilogcoin mismcoin mdtianchooplecorrecoin dispcoin rgncoin finatorcoin sattecoin bfgcoin abcokmaniquiecoin potucoin
04:48:17 <HackEgo> cat: loins: No such file or directory
04:48:24 <HackEgo> words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/loin\1/g' | rainwords
04:48:40 <HackEgo> Argument "words" isn't numeric in int at /hackenv/bin/words line 148.
04:48:54 <HackEgo> cat: words: No such file or directory
04:48:59 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl \ use strict; use warnings; \ use v5.10; \ use open qw( :encoding(UTF-8) :std); \ use File::Basename 'dirname'; \ use Storable 'retrieve'; \ use List::Util qw(sum min); \ use Getopt::Long qw(:config gnu_getopt); \ BEGIN { \ eval { \ require Math::Random::MT::Perl; Math::Random::MT::Perl->import('rand'); \ }; \ #wa
04:51:28 <hppavilion[1]> http://security.stackexchange.com/questions/122336/i-got-an-email-threatening-to-ddos-me-if-i-dont-pay-a-ransom-what-should-i-do
04:51:39 <hppavilion[1]> "Our attacks are extremely powerful - sometimes over 1 Tbps per second. And we pass CloudFlare and others remote protections! So, no cheap protection will help."
04:53:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jobende * New user account
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04:58:28 <oerjan> `` echo ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} # hppavilion[1]
04:58:29 <HackEgo> echo ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} # hppavilion[1]
04:59:16 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: that doesn't expand to the right thing outside of the bin/coins script
05:02:27 <\oren\> tera bytes per second per second would be a unit of change in traffic
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05:04:30 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: basically, it expands to the argument of bin/`
05:04:35 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$1" | rnooodl
05:05:05 <\oren\> e.g. if you have zero traffic now and one Mbps traffic ten minutes from now, then your traffic has spiked at a rate of 16.66 kbps^2
05:05:35 <\oren\> er, wait did I do that math right?
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07:36:43 * oerjan notices a dark shadow of trouble in today's freefall
07:55:52 <rdococ> there needs to be a programming language made of cheese
08:09:24 <oerjan> . o O ( why doesn't english use one of -ein or -eine predictably? )
08:33:38 <int-e> oerjan: I thought there were shadows of trouble in 2804 already
08:34:39 <int-e> unless you mean literal shadows, hmm
08:55:05 <rdococ> can text cast shadows? can text cast shadows?
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09:06:25 <oerjan> rdococ: of course not -----###
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09:09:42 <rdococ> what is that a shadow of? what is that a shadow of?
09:19:26 <oerjan> it's not a shadow, but the ghost of swattings yet to come
09:25:29 * ski . o O ( can shadows cast text ? )
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09:47:19 <int-e> of course text can cast shadows... this can be seen in many shop signs...
09:47:36 <int-e> rdococ: freefall is actually a webcomic.
09:48:36 <rdococ> the webcomic or the shadow the webcomic or the anomaly
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10:04:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nullary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46953&oldid=46952 * Occular * (+35)
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13:36:06 <zgrep> Some person made yet another thing. https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2016/05/05/setbang-1-toward-a-more-unreadable-esolang/
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14:05:23 <b_jonas> fungot, do you like Turing machines?
14:05:23 <fungot> b_jonas: it to investigate the enron case of the el data from eu countries to keep the price that we
14:05:59 <b_jonas> fungot: is Gravity a good film?
14:05:59 <fungot> b_jonas: as we will it be of the texas market seems the logical to me! i
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16:04:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nullary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46955&oldid=46953 * Occular * (-7)
16:32:20 <\oren\> halp i cant stop typing snv instead of svn
16:35:24 <b_jonas> \oren\: I have the most problem with typing the other one of "io" and "oi". The problem is that both of those occur in English words, so I can't just train myself to type only one.
16:36:04 <b_jonas> The other common transposition typo I do is in my real name, because I type that quickly.
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16:47:47 <Taneb> b_jonas, I guess oi and io are two sides of the same cion
16:59:24 <fizzie> Taneb: Let's try to aviod voilating the boundaries of good taste with them puns, okay.
17:00:05 <Taneb> fizzie, I find that notoin absurd
17:01:46 <shachaf> Taneb: congratulations on inventing the bbc
17:02:35 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, gazpacho, Stephen Wolfram, Go, submarine jousting, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, Lambek's lemma, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
17:02:50 <HackEgo> The BBC is the BreadBox Corporation. Its inventions include, without limitation, Muppets and tiny elfs. Taneb invented it.
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17:13:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: inventions: not found
17:20:36 <shachaf> "invention" is a synonym for "tanebvention" hth
17:21:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: inventions: not found
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19:14:30 <int-e> `learn ACAB is short for "all codecs are broken".
19:15:00 <HackEgo> Learned 'acab': ACAB is short for "all codecs are broken".
19:22:54 <int-e> `` echo wisdom/*_*
19:22:56 <HackEgo> wisdom/_ÌÌÌ°_ÌÌ
ÍÍ̦̻ͬÌÍÌÌÍ¡_ͧÍÌÍÌ_ÍÍÍͧÍÌÌ̯Í̬̬̦̯_ÌÌÌ
ͨÌÌ´Í wisdom/ÌÌÍÌÌÌͦÌÍͪÍ̼̾ͦͨÍ
ÍÍÌ®Í̸̳Ì̤ÌÌ¯ÌªÌ¸ÌªÌ±Ì£Ì ÌºÌ¹ÍÌ©ÌÍÍÍÍÌÍ̪̮ÌÌÌ£ÍÌªÍ Í¢Í¢Ò̴̢_Ì¿ÌÍ£ÌͣͪÍÍÌÌÍÌÌÍ«ÌÍÌ£ÍÍÍÍ̪̪ÌÌÍÌÌ̻̥̫Ì̱ÌÍ̳̦̮Ì̲̥ÍÒÌÍÍ Í ÒÌ¡ÌÌ§Í wisdom/b_jonas wisdom/koen_ wisdom/
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19:41:57 <coppro> `learn TAS is a tool-assisted speedrun: a race in which participants must use quality tools such as the PHP hammer, Autoconf, and the Arkenpliers to assist them in running.
19:42:03 <HackEgo> Learned 'ta': TAS is a tool-assisted speedrun: a race in which participants must use quality tools such as the PHP hammer, Autoconf, and the Arkenpliers to assist them in running.
19:42:19 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?TAS: not found
19:42:23 <HackEgo> TAS is a tool-assisted speedrun: a race in which participants must use quality tools such as the PHP hammer, Autoconf, and the Arkenpliers to assist them in running.
19:42:30 <HackEgo> TAS is a tool-assisted speedrun: a race in which participants must use quality tools such as the PHP hammer, Autoconf, and the Arkenpliers to assist them in running.
19:43:10 <coppro> `learn huh is ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:43:14 <HackEgo> Learned 'huh': huh is ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:43:50 <myname> are you sure you wanted that?
19:45:11 <shachaf> coppro: Did you mean "`learn A TAS is a ..."?
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19:52:35 <int-e> . o O ( libtool is for hardcore players)
19:59:15 <zzo38> I have book that includes Niels Bohr's coat-of-arms.
20:03:37 <zzo38> Unlike the one on Wikipedia this one though also includes his full name on the left and a date on the right (XVII Octobris an:MCMXLVII). About the date, Wikipedia says "At a memorial meeting of the Academy on 17 October 1947 for King Christian X, who had died in April, the new king, Frederick IX, announced that he was conferring the Order of the Elephant on Bohr."
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20:08:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hellborne]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46956 * Moon * (+520) Created page with "Hellborne is a language designed to be '''''as hard as fliping possible''''', generic things like increment and decrement, or changing the focused variable, take multiple comm..."
20:09:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hellborne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46957&oldid=46956 * Moon * (+5)
20:16:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainmaker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46958&oldid=34528 * Moon * (+107)
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20:41:41 <shachaf> What do I use for serious proofs?
20:42:06 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Well, it depends on what kind of system you're proving in
20:47:16 <zzo38> One way to do conversion of 16-bit numbers from binary to decimal is to have tables for converting each byte into the place values in decimal (eight tables in total), and then add them up by implementing decimal arithmetic. On 6502 this can work well; use CMP #10 after each digit is processed and the carry flag is already correct for dealing with the next one.
20:48:48 <shachaf> I heard you wanted to break Z-machine backwards compatibility?
20:50:04 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know why; I was not trying to break it?
20:56:57 <zzo38> How do you hear such thing anyways?
20:57:50 <shachaf> I was talking to vaporware.
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21:02:53 <zzo38> shachaf: At what time?
21:06:00 <shachaf> pikhq: You know vaporware, don't you?
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21:19:18 <zzo38> Their name is Jesse McGrew as can be reveal by finger command on ifMUD
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21:43:14 <FreeFull> zzo38 Take a look at http://bisqwit.iki.fi/story/howto/dither/jy/
21:43:29 <FreeFull> I wanted to link you to that sooner but haven't gotten around to it
21:44:55 <zzo38> OK I will read it.
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21:47:36 <zzo38> I could use some of these for adding into my "ff-reduce" program
21:48:03 <Moon_> `congratulate oerjan
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21:48:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: congratulate: not found
21:48:43 <HackEgo> :-( \ !\.´ \ 99 \ 99bb \ advice \ alrus \ bdsmreclist \ BGTV9E93 \ bin \ canary \ cat \ cdescs \ Complaints.mp3 \ congratulate \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ Eternity \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hia \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ marsha \ misle \ oerjan \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \ quotes
21:49:17 <Moon_> `culptrits bin/congratulate
21:49:18 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: culptrits: not found
21:49:28 <Moon_> `culprits bin/congratulate
21:50:06 <HackEgo> congratulations Moon_, you are the ruler of the chat!
21:50:42 <Moon_> `mv congratulate bin/congratulate
21:50:44 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `congratulate bin/congratulate' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
21:50:51 <Moon_> `` mv congratulate bin/congratulate
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22:07:26 <quintopia> youve been mooning the wiki quite a lot today
22:10:02 <Moon_> anyways my pc died while i was just starting on a brainmaker (http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainmaker) intepreter )=
22:10:13 <Moon_> lost a lot of code
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22:14:23 <Moon_> im gonna start back up on working on a jirc bot
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22:27:09 <fizzie> It's a bit of a shame HackEgo doesn't make the person invoking the command available via an environment variable.
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22:38:08 <shachaf> fizzie: You can always use culprits.
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22:43:10 <fizzie> Ye-es, but only posthumously, right?
22:52:55 <moon__> *writing out the specifications and details of a new esolang, making the page quite long*
23:04:41 <moon__> thats a sample program
23:05:29 <tromp> blog entry on busy beavers and decidability: http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2725
23:07:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Antgrid]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46959 * Moon * (+1191) Made page -Moon
23:08:28 <shachaf> Didn't you already discuss that post in this channel?
23:08:47 <fizzie> I think it's come up thrice.
23:08:52 <fizzie> Don't remember by whom, though.
23:09:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Antgrid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46960&oldid=46959 * Moon * (+161) oops! i forgot something!
23:09:50 <tromp> yes, this was previously discussed
23:10:09 <tromp> but maybe at that time the Laver tables were not in there yet:)
23:11:28 <tromp> see this comment: http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2725#comment-1086714
23:11:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Antgrid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46961&oldid=46960 * Moon * (+14)
23:12:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Antgrid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46962&oldid=46961 * Moon * (+1)
23:12:42 <fizzie> moon__: There's a "preview" function.
23:12:53 <moon__> i need to make a habit of useing it >_>
23:14:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Antgrid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46963&oldid=46962 * Moon * (+1)
23:20:57 <tromp> i'm wondering how best to compute laver tables in lambda calculus...
23:21:44 <tromp> in particular the map i -> (i+1) mod 2^n
23:22:54 <tromp> maybe using church numerals and lookup in a list...
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23:26:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Antgrid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46964&oldid=46963 * Moon * (-14)
23:26:56 <moon__> antgrid is not your normal 2d esolang, its the program that is 2d, not the memory
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23:29:00 <b_jonas> moon__: so? piet also has only the code space 2d, not the data.
23:31:31 <Taneb> Befunge to some extent, COMPLEX
23:31:41 <Taneb> (COMPLEX to a different extent)
23:34:16 <fizzie> Wierd is stack + two-dimensional source, akin to Befunge.
23:35:15 <fizzie> 2L has two-dimensional code, and a Brainfuck-style tape for data.
23:35:47 <fizzie> PATH is maybe even closer.
23:36:16 <fizzie> (Incidentally, you could steal a nice formatting for a command list from the PATH article.)
23:37:22 <fizzie> Brainloller/Braincopter as well.
23:40:03 <fizzie> SNUSP's kind of a PATH derivative.
23:40:36 <fizzie> (The "bloated SNUSP" variant turns the data tape into a plane, but the others have a tape.)
23:42:44 <b_jonas> Then there's that two-dimensional language that has no data space, only an unbound instruction counter… I dunno what that counts.
23:44:00 <moon__> i found a intresting one: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Langar.io
23:44:02 <fizzie> Due to Befunge's influence, there's no shortage of the "two-dimensional source + a stack" types, either with or without access to the source code space.
23:44:24 <b_jonas> but befunge has a two-dimensional data space apart from the stack, right?
23:44:37 <fizzie> That would be the "with access to the source code space" part.
23:44:40 <moon__> ell i haven't checked out befunge, i didnt know it was 2d
23:44:52 <moon__> i came up with antgrid on my own
23:45:41 <zgrep> There's also ><>, iirc...
23:46:20 <b_jonas> moon__: good, now you should study popular esolangs before you invent the next one then
23:47:48 <b_jonas> moon__: at least learn about the classic ones like unlambda, intercal, befunge, underload, Piet, brainfuck (eww… I didn't say you have to like it, just learn about it), Chef, ... what important ones am I forgetting
23:48:23 <zgrep> Didn't you mean to put the parentheses 4 items to the left? :P
23:48:50 <zzo38> I think the ones you listed are a good choice probably.
23:49:05 <fizzie> Anyone will have their own list. Mine would have Thue and/or /// on it.
23:49:57 <Taneb> b_jonas, which idea?
23:50:02 <fizzie> And Malbolge's pretty famous as well, as an example of the "intentionally difficult" genre.
23:50:04 <b_jonas> a string replacement language should be mentioned, especially since variants of them are popularized by the masters Knuth and Chomsky
23:50:17 <fizzie> Taneb: Apparently I look like you.
23:51:02 <Taneb> fizzie, I have an image of you in my head, the accuracy of which I'm unsure of
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23:51:21 <Taneb> It's... a little like me? In the sense we're both skinny and white, but that's about it
23:51:40 <b_jonas> And I for one quite like untyped pointer machines with goto and immutable values on the heap, but I can't say they're historically important.
23:52:18 <b_jonas> Oh, don't forget fractran (counter machines with unbounded counter registers). Those are very popular (I can't say I like them though)
23:52:26 <b_jonas> And turing-machines of course.
23:53:37 <zzo38> You could try looking at random stuff too. Some of them are not as good but you can look anyways to see more kind of thing, there is also list of ideas to look at too
23:53:50 <b_jonas> (There's some other esolangs I dislike, and even one I hate, but they're not as important so I won't mention them here.)
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23:55:30 <b_jonas> Did anyone look at Laconic in more detail? We should add something more to its entry about what sort of language it is, not just about the goal it serves.
23:55:38 <fizzie> Taneb: I'm not all that skinny any more, but sickly white, sure. I guess the coin leaves something to the imagination.
23:55:51 -!- shikhin has changed nick to hhiikns.
23:55:57 <b_jonas> In particular, does it have algebraic types with mutable cells? Or only immutable cells? Or even no algebraic types?
23:57:07 -!- hhiikns has changed nick to snkiihh.
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23:59:43 <HackEgo> :-( \ !\.´ \ 99 \ 99bb \ advice \ alrus \ bdsmreclist \ BGTV9E93 \ bin \ canary \ cat \ cdescs \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ Eternity \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hia \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ marsha \ misle \ oerjan \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ ReUariBw \ sh
23:59:53 <shachaf> what's with all the junk in hackenv
00:00:10 <HackEgo> :-( \ !\.´* \ 99 \ 99bb* \ advice/ \ alrus \ bdsmreclist \ BGTV9E93 \ bin/ \ canary* \ cat \ cdescs/ \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D* \ dog \ emoticons/ \ equations \ esobible/ \ etc/ \ Eternity* \ evil/ \ factor/ \ foo* \ good/ \ hia* \ hw/ \ ibin/ \ interps/ \ karma \ le/ \ lib/ \ ls_dev \ marsha \ misle/ \ paste/ \ ply-3.8/ \ quine \ quines/ \ quotes
00:00:11 <oerjan> people experimenting hth
00:00:42 <shachaf> how about cleaning that up
00:01:00 <oerjan> i think i resigned that job the other day hth
00:01:26 <shachaf> `` hg log ':-(' | grep summary:
00:01:34 <HackEgo> summary: <mroman> ` echo \xe2\x98\xb9 > "./:-("
00:01:51 <HackEgo> cat: !\.`*: No such file or directory
00:02:02 <HackEgo> cat: !\.´*: No such file or directory
00:02:11 <shachaf> well anyway that one was mine so it can stay
00:02:13 <HackEgo> b=bottle a=({no+more+$b\s,1+$b,{2..99}+$b\s}+of+beer) w=on+the+wall \ x=(Take+one+down,+pass+it+around Go+to+the+store+and+buy+some+more) \ for i in {99..0};{ \ echo "${a[i]^} $w, ${a[i]}. \ ${x[!i]}, ${a[i-1]} $w." \ }|tr + \
00:02:23 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `99 junk/' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
00:02:43 <shachaf> is that no about creating more junk
00:03:00 <oerjan> shachaf: it's no about creating new directories for things we already have places for
00:03:15 <HackEgo> bf \ bob.c \ brainfuck.fu \ c \ ciol \ daoyu.c \ egobot.tar.xz \ emmental.hs \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ fizziecoin.jpg \ fueue.c \ grph.c \ ploki \ ploki-0.6.5.1.tar.bz2 \ u8tbl.c \ ul.emm
00:03:20 <shachaf> oh i was just going to put everything in junk/
00:03:26 <shachaf> and then let other people put it where they want
00:03:49 <HackEgo> !\.´ \ 99bb \ advice \ alrus \ bdsmreclist \ BGTV9E93 \ bin \ canary \ cat \ cdescs \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ Eternity \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hia \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ junk \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ ReUariBw \ share \ Something.c \ sr
00:03:57 <HackEgo> âELF............>......@.....@.......è..........@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@.....À.......À............................@......@............................................@.......@.....l......l........ ............p......p`.....p`.....8......@........ .................`.....`.....à.......à................
00:04:21 <oerjan> shachaf: i just reverted someone's creation of jnk/ the other day.
00:04:43 <HackEgo> cat: advice: Is a directory
00:04:45 <HackEgo> <oerjan> YOU are out of order.
00:04:54 <HackEgo> !\.´* \ advice/ \ bin/ \ canary* \ cat \ cdescs/ \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D* \ dog \ emoticons/ \ equations \ esobible/ \ etc/ \ Eternity* \ evil/ \ factor/ \ foo* \ good/ \ hia* \ hw/ \ ibin/ \ interps/ \ junk/ \ karma \ le/ \ lib/ \ ls_dev \ misle/ \ paste/ \ ply-3.8/ \ quine \ quines/ \ quotes \ ReUariBw \ share/ \ Something.c \ src/ \ templates
00:05:11 <shachaf> do you object to what i'm doing
00:05:25 <Taneb> fizzie, I've worked out I was basing my mental image of you on your github profile pick
00:05:32 <shachaf> `` mv Complaints.mp3 share/
00:05:47 <shachaf> I thought that's what share/ was for?
00:05:52 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:06:04 <oerjan> shachaf: yes, but there's a binary referring to that file.
00:06:10 <shachaf> Right, I was going to fix that next.
00:06:30 <shachaf> What, everything has to be an atomic operation now?
00:06:51 <shachaf> Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity.
00:06:55 <oerjan> also, you cannot `revert file creations properly. i assume that includes moves.
00:07:04 <oerjan> i'm just asking for a bit care hth
00:07:11 <shachaf> oerjan: I already checked that in /msg
00:07:15 <oerjan> `complain shachaf isn't atomic
00:07:19 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
00:07:30 <fizzie> Taneb: Mm. Well, it's a bit old. (2004, that is.)
00:07:32 <shachaf> I'm not sure what's with all the "no!"s.
00:07:41 <shachaf> Are you trying to discourage taking initiative here?
00:07:54 <HackEgo> 99 \ 99bb \ bdsmreclist \ BGTV9E93
00:08:28 <oerjan> shachaf: just a visceral reaction after all the time i've spent trying to keep things in order. hard habit to break.
00:08:30 <Taneb> fizzie, compared to that photo, I have shorter, darker hair, a smaller nose, slightly pointier ears, less chin, and more lip and neck I think
00:08:44 <shachaf> You just said you resigned that job.
00:09:09 <shachaf> Is your new job yelling at kids to get off your hackenv lawn?
00:09:24 <oerjan> shachaf: also, note that checking whether a `revert works is _also_ unreliable. a broken `revert makes the actual directory and the repository out of sync for a revision or so.
00:09:36 -!- Akaibu has joined.
00:10:07 * oerjan assumes shachaf is trolling about that
00:10:09 <shachaf> What's a reliable way of checking?
00:10:17 <shachaf> Look, I don't know how this works.
00:10:21 <oerjan> shachaf: you cannot remove canary.
00:10:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Obfuscated Tiny C]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46965 * B jonas * (+952) Created page with "'''Obfuscated Tiny C''' is a small subset of the C programming language created by Fabrice Bellard, published in 2001. The goal is to be able to compile the language with a s..."
00:10:33 <shachaf> I thought removing it reset things to a known state or something?
00:10:44 -!- moon__ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
00:10:51 <HackEgo> 99 \ 99bb \ bdsmreclist \ BGTV9E93
00:11:00 <shachaf> `` ls {share/,}Complaints.mp3
00:11:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Obfuscated Tiny C]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46966&oldid=46965 * B jonas * (+39)
00:11:07 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
00:11:07 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access share/Complaints.mp3: No such file or directory \ Complaints.mp3
00:11:15 <oerjan> shachaf: anyway i think your revert actually _did_ work. i'm not entirely sure what the rules are.
00:11:17 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 10 May 6 23:09 canary
00:11:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46967&oldid=46743 * B jonas * (-101)
00:11:29 <shachaf> oerjan: None of us are sure, but some of us feel sure enough to yell at others.
00:11:37 <fizzie> Removing the canary just skips committing the change, IIRC.
00:12:01 <fizzie> (Every command is *supposed* to run in a fresh checkout.)
00:12:43 * oerjan will try to assume shachaf knows what he's doing for a while. that is also hard with what all the other people keep doing to HackEgo
00:12:49 <shachaf> I was going to ignoerjan until <oerjan> shachaf: ok, stop.
00:14:17 -!- deny has changed nick to ybden.
00:14:47 <fizzie> I don't have any good recent images, except the coin.
00:15:32 <fizzie> Although I had a friend photograph things at the thesis defence afterparty, maybe there'll be at least one decent photo there.
00:16:21 <HackEgo> fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the king of #esoteric, see http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/src/fizziecoin.jpg
00:16:26 <fizzie> I think that's the coin.
00:17:27 <shachaf> I'm curious about the coin but not enough to download a file.
00:17:37 <zzo38> data:text/html,<img%20src="http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/src/fizziecoin.jpg">
00:18:09 <fizzie> It's also in the wisdom pdf, if your browser opens that inline.
00:18:28 <oerjan> shachaf: sorry, go ahead.
00:18:49 <HackEgo> !\.´* \ advice/ \ bin/ \ canary* \ cat \ cdescs/ \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D* \ dog \ emoticons/ \ equations \ esobible/ \ etc/ \ Eternity* \ evil/ \ factor/ \ foo* \ good/ \ hia* \ hw/ \ ibin/ \ interps/ \ junk/ \ karma \ le/ \ lib/ \ ls_dev \ misle/ \ paste/ \ ply-3.8/ \ quine \ quines/ \ quotes \ ReUariBw \ share/ \ Something.c \ src/ \ templates
00:20:01 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: adds file types, i think
00:20:10 <oerjan> useful for not catting binary files
00:20:19 <oerjan> and seeing directories
00:20:29 <shachaf> `` mv Complaints.mp3 share/; for f in $(rgrep -l Complaints) bin; do sed -i 's#Complaints#share/Complaints' "$f"; done
00:20:30 <oerjan> well, mostly the latter
00:20:48 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: shachaf is one of the main people disagreeing with that theory, i believe
00:21:19 <Phantom__Hoover> obviously we need a utility turning terminal colour codes into irc ones
00:21:26 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:21:44 <oerjan> shachaf: i think it's stalled trying to run some terminal code lookup
00:21:53 <HackEgo> [0m[01;32m!\.´[0m \ [01;34madvice[0m \ [01;34mbin[0m \ [01;32mcanary[0m \ cat \ [01;34mcdescs[0m \ [01;32m:-D[0m \ dog \ [01;34memoticons[0m \ equations \ [01;34mesobible[0m \ [01;34metc[0m \ [01;32mEternity[0m \ [01;34mevil[0m \ [01;34mfactor[0m \ [01;32mfoo[0m \ [01;34mgood[0m \ [01;32mhia[0m \ [01;34mhw[0m \
00:22:12 <oerjan> really, there should be a < /dev/null in HackEgo's command execution to prevent this stuff.
00:22:38 <HackEgo> wc: Complaints.mp3: No such file or directory
00:22:59 <shachaf> `` for f in $(rgrep -l Complaints) bin; do sed -i 's#Complaints#share/Complaints#' "$f"; done
00:23:11 <shachaf> `` for f in $(rgrep -l Complaints bin); do sed -i 's#Complaints#share/Complaints#' "$f"; done
00:23:50 <oerjan> is HackEgo frozen again.
00:23:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
00:23:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host).
00:23:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
00:24:13 <fizzie> It takes a while to grep thorough everything in bin, I presume.
00:25:14 <shachaf> `complain The "complaints" command now shows a superfluous directory name.
00:25:18 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
00:25:28 <shachaf> The .mp3 is fluous itself, of course.
00:25:50 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `cat junk' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
00:26:16 <HackEgo> !\.´* \ advice/ \ bin/ \ canary* \ cdescs/ \ emoticons/ \ esobible/ \ etc/ \ Eternity* \ evil/ \ factor/ \ foo* \ good/ \ hia* \ hw/ \ ibin/ \ interps/ \ junk/ \ karma \ le/ \ lib/ \ ls_dev \ misle/ \ paste/ \ ply-3.8/ \ quine \ quines/ \ quotes \ ReUariBw \ share/ \ Something.c \ src/ \ templates/ \ test \ theorems/ \ tmflry/ \ wisdom/ \ wisdo
00:26:28 <HackEgo> while :; do echo 'Loading'; sleep 1; done
00:26:36 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `Eternity junk' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
00:26:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `mv: not found
00:26:58 <HackEgo> foo: ASCII text \ hia: ASCII text
00:27:03 <oerjan> `` mv {junk,bin}/Eternity # Technically an esolang
00:27:37 <HackEgo> foo:foo \ hia::(){ :|: & };:
00:28:24 <oerjan> did you actually move it to ibin
00:28:59 <shachaf> do you think it belongs there
00:29:05 <oerjan> with HackEgo so slow it is very hard to see whether those are fake or not
00:29:10 <HackEgo> bin/karma+:echo "$1 now has $(($(lib/karma "$1")+1)) karma." | tee karma \ bin/karma-:touch karma \ bin/karma-:echo "$1 now has $(($(lib/karma "$1")-1)) karma." \ bin/pastekarma:cd karma \ bin/karma:echo "$1 has $(lib/karma "$1") karma."
00:29:26 <shachaf> i kind of want to delete the whole thing
00:29:35 <shachaf> `` hg log 'bin/karma+' | grep summary:
00:30:05 <HackEgo> Elronnd Elronnd oerjan elliott Bike guestbot ais523 ais523 oerjan oerjan elliott FreeFull oerjan FreeFull elliott nitia
00:30:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Goruby]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46968 * B jonas * (+487) Created page with "'''goruby''' is a modification of the ruby programming language to make it somewhat more suitable to code golf. It is implemented by the files goruby.c and golf_prelude.c whi..."
00:30:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46969&oldid=46967 * B jonas * (-32)
00:30:42 <HackEgo> junk/ \ karma \ le/ \ lib/ \ ls_dev \ misle/ \ paste/ \ ply-3.8/ \ quine \ quines/ \ quotes \ ReUariBw \ share/ \ Something.c \ src/ \ templates/ \ test \ theorems/ \ tmflry/ \ wisdom/ \ wisdom.pdf
00:30:49 <shachaf> what's wisdom.pdf doing there
00:30:58 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `Something.C junk/' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
00:31:13 <shachaf> one would think i'd learn eventually
00:31:22 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm pretty sure karma has had major redesign recently.
00:31:26 <HackEgo> int main( int argc, char *argv[] ) {
00:31:42 <zzo38> O, now the accounting equation in wisdom.pdf is fixed. (It used to be slightly wrong)
00:31:48 <b_jonas> someone (possibly me) should make a script that traverses the languages category of the wiki and compiles the language list automatically
00:32:01 <HackEgo> agpgart \ audio \ audio1 \ audio2 \ audio3 \ audioctl \ console \ core \ dsp \ dsp1 \ dsp2 \ dsp3 \ fd \ full \ kmem \ loop0 \ loop1 \ loop2 \ loop3 \ loop4 \ loop5 \ loop6 \ loop7 \ mem \ midi0 \ midi00 \ midi01 \ midi02 \ midi03 \ midi1 \ midi2 \ midi3 \ mixer \ mixer1 \ mixer2 \ mixer3 \ mpu401data \ mpu401stat \ null \ port \ ptmx \ pts \ ram \
00:32:17 <shachaf> `` hg log ls_dev | grep summary:
00:32:21 <HackEgo> summary: <zgrep> ` ls /dev > ls_dev
00:32:28 -!- Moon_ has joined.
00:32:37 <HackEgo> factor/ \ good/ \ hw/ \ ibin/ \ interps/ \ junk/ \ karma \ le/ \ lib/ \ misle/ \ paste/ \ ply-3.8/ \ quine \ quines/ \ quotes \ share/ \ src/ \ templates/ \ test \ theorems/ \ tmflry/ \ wisdom/ \ wisdom.pdf
00:32:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46970&oldid=46900 * B jonas * (+57)
00:32:42 * zgrep doesn't remember doing that at all...
00:33:13 <shachaf> Does it stand for "zygomorphism grep"?
00:33:32 <HackEgo> moon_ moon_ moon_ moon_ moon_ moon_ moon_ moon_ moon_ moon_ moon_ moon_ moon_
00:33:49 <oerjan> zgrep: i'll assume it's not needed, then.
00:34:01 <zgrep> oerjan: Not needed at all.
00:34:03 <oerjan> looks rather irrelevant for HackEgo
00:34:21 <HackEgo> esolanginterptemp-ciol- \ termwrapperOut
00:34:28 <HackEgo> templates/esolanginterptemp-ciol-:#include <stdio.h>
00:34:37 <zgrep> Oh... I think it might've been when I was trying to find out more about hackego before I discovered the repository.
00:34:48 <shachaf> `cat templates/termwrapperOut
00:34:49 <HackEgo> cmd='echo Hi!' sh -c 'eval $cmd'
00:34:56 <HackEgo> bf \ bob.c \ brainfuck.fu \ c \ ciol \ daoyu.c \ egobot.tar.xz \ emmental.hs \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ fizziecoin.jpg \ fueue.c \ grph.c \ ploki \ ploki-0.6.5.1.tar.bz2 \ u8tbl.c \ ul.emm
00:35:01 <fizzie> b_jonas: There are a number of languages on the language list that are not in the category, and vice versa. There's also the joke language list, and (arguably) elements of that should still have Category:Language but not be on the main language list.
00:35:15 <zgrep> shachaf: It gzipped away.
00:35:21 <oerjan> `` mv templates/eso* src/ciol.c
00:35:27 <shachaf> is there a list of languages that aren't in any lists
00:35:37 <oerjan> i think that's where it belongs, and someone already said so
00:35:39 <fizzie> (I've looked at their intersection and set differences every now and then.)
00:36:03 <fizzie> There's already a list of every page in the category, namely the category page.
00:36:37 <Moon_> im challangeing you all to a code inflation challange, get the largest program optimal program that prints the fibbernoaci sequence possiblr
00:36:53 <oerjan> b_jonas: notes that the language list doesn't always agree with the article technical name, when weird chars are involved.
00:37:06 <zgrep> Moon_: How would you define "largest optimal".
00:37:32 <shachaf> i challenge you to a not challenging people to contests contest
00:37:46 <Moon_> Well, however you define it
00:37:56 <ybden> shachaf: That's evil.
00:38:07 <ybden> Or very unfair, at any rate.
00:38:30 <b_jonas> oerjan: we can define a template that gives the alternate name and add them in those languages, or something
00:39:03 <b_jonas> or better, put the language name as the sort key in a category entry in that page
00:39:10 <Moon_> The largest program that is the smalleat it can be in a language, basically language serfing
00:39:15 <oerjan> <shachaf> why didn't my grep work <-- the first file is copied from Windows, and contains \r which HackEgo has started cutting off at
00:39:23 <b_jonas> it's not like we can'd add exceptions, but still, auto-generating the list would help and let us uncover lots of lost languages
00:39:25 <Moon_> kinda the opposite of code golf
00:39:44 <fizzie> At least one language is also on the language list twice -- once in the right place and once mis-sorted.
00:39:47 <b_jonas> (we'll also need a root category for pages we want to exclude even if they're reachable from Languages, such as joke languages)
00:39:51 <shachaf> oerjan: HackEgo cuts off at \r? that explains multiple behavior i've seen thx tdh hth hand hug
00:40:08 -!- ybden has quit (Quit: BigBrother is watching you).
00:40:12 <fizzie> They're not *lost*, you see them by looking at what's in the category.
00:40:14 <b_jonas> fizzie: I knew some entries were mis-sorted, but I didn't know any were duped
00:40:32 <shachaf> I feel like I've been duped myself.
00:40:34 <fizzie> b_jonas: IIRC, only one.
00:40:35 <b_jonas> fizzie: but the category has to be listed recursively, because not all langs are directly in it
00:41:10 <fizzie> LAll languages are supposed to be directly in it, or that was my understanding.
00:41:22 <b_jonas> we can even keep the manual list if you want, or even in the extreme, not generate an automatic list at all, but only a list of languages missing from the manual apge
00:41:33 <oerjan> <ybden> Or very unfair, at any rate. <-- i say it's perfectly fair hth
00:43:06 <b_jonas> fizzie: maybe they should, but I don't think they all are
00:43:25 <fizzie> Oh, I wouldn't mind only having an automatic list. But everything currently on the list should be on the automatic one.
00:43:26 <b_jonas> fizzie: if they should, then an automatic tool might help find the pages that aren't
00:43:52 <b_jonas> fizzie: ideally, I wish we just put all non-languages to an appendix namespace, so that all pages in the main namespace are languages
00:44:16 <b_jonas> but that doesn't happen, either for historical reasons or because ais doesn't want it
00:44:19 <fizzie> "Category:Languages (this should be present in all languages, --"
00:44:59 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, but you know, it isn't automated. I think I created language pages without adding that category, because I didn't think we had such crazy manual methods on a wiki made by mainly programmers.
00:45:33 <b_jonas> I can try writing the automator (I've done a little mediawiki stuff already) if I have time (so don't count on it)
00:45:51 <Moon_> My shortest helloworld:(blank). Written in metagolfscript-moonmoonsrandomid93847482074
00:46:23 <fizzie> I'm sure there are also a number of legitimately lost languages that are not on the list nor in the category.
00:46:28 <oerjan> Moon_: i think Unary is a good language for your challenge hth
00:48:08 * oerjan fetches something to wipe up Moon_'s exploded brain
00:48:58 <zzo38> I think there is something wrong with the kernel that causes problems with its interaction with the printer.
00:49:02 * Moon_ will very happily make something worse
00:49:20 <zzo38> Which module do I need to disable so that it can be in use properly?
00:49:48 <oerjan> a few more explosions and you'll be ready to start learning Haskell
00:50:27 * Moon_ has already put research into learning it
00:58:37 -!- moon__ has joined.
01:00:32 * oerjan suddenly realizes Moon_ has learned to use /me
01:04:36 * moon__ notes it was inevitable (see df wiki)
01:07:42 <oerjan> i'm not very familar with df
01:08:04 <moon__> the quine is wrote in http://esolangs.org/wiki/DNA-Sharp
01:08:08 <shachaf> oerjan: what about a language where you encode BB(n) in unary to encode the Unary program n hth
01:08:10 <oerjan> despite "everyone" else here playing it a few years ago
01:08:46 <oerjan> shachaf: well that's the obvious next step which i didn't bother to mention of course
01:09:52 * oerjan recalls wondering yesterday or so if there was something that was to BB like Ackermann is to exponentiation
01:10:03 <moon__> `ciol rwhat would be a good way to compare values in ciol?;
01:10:04 <HackEgo> what would be a good way to compare values in ciol?
01:12:47 * oerjan looked at the df wiki main page (and on a hunch, its talk page) and still does not understand what Moon_ meant
01:14:38 * oerjan tries a google and gets to Acronyms
01:16:54 <moon__> 'it was inevitable' is a refernence to how npcs overuse the phrase (well, used to)
01:17:18 <oerjan> i was just getting to Template:D for dwarf, which is the best i could find.
01:17:21 <moon__> like by overused, they even used it incorrectly sometimes
01:18:13 <moon__> npc1: 'I show no fear in the face of battle' npc1: 'it was inevitable
01:21:31 <oerjan> i'm not sure that is incorrect, given a matching life philosophy
01:22:01 <HackEgo> !\.´ \ advice \ bin \ canary \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ junk \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ templates \ test \ theorems \ tmflry \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
01:22:02 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ \ ! \ ? \ ?? \ ¿ \ ' \ @ \ * \ ؟ \ \ \ \ 1492 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 5quote \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ aglist \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ append \ arienvenido \ as86 \ aseen \ asm \ autowelcome \ bardsworthlist \ before \ benvenuto \ bf \ bff \ bienvenido \ bienvenue \ bin \ blame \ bla
01:22:20 <oerjan> Moon_: we've been cleaning up a bit. missing anything?
01:22:31 <oerjan> s/we/shachaf/g, mostly
01:23:11 <oerjan> shachaf: well you've done a lot of cleaning
01:23:15 <moon__> its a good thing your cleaning up
01:23:47 <shachaf> I do want to delete templates/
01:23:59 <moon__> move the stuff in it to src
01:24:04 <oerjan> shachaf: well there's only one thing left there, and it's not very good
01:24:33 <oerjan> `` rm -r junk/templates
01:24:36 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `junk/templates': No such file or directory
01:24:44 <oerjan> oh you didn't move that
01:25:16 <zzo38> Hidden Deathlace {-} Conspiracy ;; Hidden agenda ;; Nonbasic objects with the chosen name are black. (There is then four more similar cards for blue, white, green, red)
01:25:25 <shachaf> I feel like there's a bunch of other junk that can be removed.
01:25:28 <HackEgo> !\.´* \ advice/ \ bin/ \ canary* \ cdescs/ \ emoticons/ \ esobible/ \ etc/ \ evil/ \ factor/ \ good/ \ hw/ \ ibin/ \ interps/ \ junk/ \ karma \ le/ \ lib/ \ misle/ \ paste/ \ ply-3.8/ \ quine \ quines/ \ quotes \ share/ \ src/ \ test \ theorems/ \ tmflry/ \ wisdom/ \ wisdom.pdf
01:25:46 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin
01:25:53 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
01:26:06 <shachaf> I would even include esobible and tmflry and misle.
01:26:08 <moon__> the url system is better
01:26:21 <oerjan> `` sed 's/\r//g' junk/ciol.c
01:26:23 <HackEgo> sed: can't read junk/ciol.c: No such file or directory
01:26:29 <oerjan> `` sed 's/\r//g' src/ciol.c
01:26:30 <HackEgo> #include <stdio.h> \ #include <stdlib.h> \ \ #include <stdio.h> \ #include <string.h> \ #include <stdlib.h> \ #include <unistd.h> \ // initialize the tape with 30,000 zeroes \ unsigned long long int tape[30000] = {0}; \ unsigned long long int registrar[3] = {0}; // R1, R2, and R3 \ // set the pointer to point at the left-most cell of the tape \
01:26:40 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/\r//g' src/ciol.c
01:26:43 <moon__> dont delete the ciol command src
01:26:51 <HackEgo> #include <stdio.h> \ #include <stdlib.h> \ \ #include <stdio.h> \ #include <string.h> \ #include <stdlib.h> \ #include <unistd.h> \ // initialize the tape with 30,000 zeroes \ unsigned long long int tape[30000] = {0}; \ unsigned long long int registrar[3] = {0}; // R1, R2, and R3 \ // set the pointer to point at the left-most cell of the tape \
01:27:01 <oerjan> Moon_: i'm just converting the file to unix format
01:27:08 <oerjan> because HackEgo kept cutting it off
01:27:38 <moon__> why not make a dos2unix command?
01:27:43 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dos2unix: not found
01:28:15 <zzo38> Do you like these kind of "hidden *lace" cards?
01:29:07 <oerjan> `mkx bin/dos2unix//sed -i 's/\r//g' "$@"
01:29:29 <zzo38> I have read in a old book about "dos2unix" and "unix2dos" command in UNIX systems, although it is not installed by default on these new systems (although it is in the package manager). My "utftovlq" program can do both of these things too though.
01:30:10 <oerjan> zzo38: there is dos2unix on the server i'm irc'ing from
01:30:16 <oerjan> but it wasn't in HackEgo
01:30:30 <oerjan> i'm not sure if \r is the only issue these days.
01:30:59 <moon__> now i can make updates to my CIOL intepreter *doubt* unix compatable
01:31:17 <moon__> `erro error 404: moon not found
01:31:19 <HackEgo> error 404: moon not found
01:32:02 <oerjan> `mkx bin/dos2unix//sed -i 's/\r//g' -- "$@"
01:32:22 <HackEgo> 99 \ 99bb \ bdsmreclist \ BGTV9E93 \ cat \ :-D \ equations \ foo \ hia \ ReUariBw \ Something.c
01:32:49 <oerjan> oh i was just going to use it to test dos2unix :P
01:32:53 <oerjan> anyway there are others
01:33:01 <zzo38> Specifically "utftovlq 88L" will convert CRLF line endings to LF only; "tr -d \\r" will do it too, although there is a slight difference if input contains CR without LF.
01:33:21 <oerjan> `dos2unix junk/BGTV9E93
01:33:32 <HackEgo> #include <stdio.h> \ #include <stdlib.h> \ \ #include <stdio.h> \ #include <string.h> \ #include <stdlib.h> \ #include <unistd.h> \ // initialize the tape with 30,000 zeroes \ unsigned long long int tape[30000] = {0}; \ unsigned long long int registrar[3] = {0}; // R1, R2, and R3 \ // set the pointer to point at the left-most cell of the tape \
01:33:58 <zzo38> shachaf: The first 8 means the input format is 8-bit, the second 8 means the output format is 8-bit, and the L means to enable conversion of line endings to LF only.
01:34:09 <oerjan> although it doesn't do any checks for binaries, so don't use them on anything that isn't text
01:34:17 <shachaf> What other bittiness is supported?
01:34:48 <zzo38> (To do the reverse conversion, use "utftovlq 88cL", where c means to prepend CR to each LF)
01:35:27 <HackEgo> drowning \ flipbird \ gaaan \ gaan \ kyaa \ shrug \ swatter \ useless
01:35:39 <HackEgo> 99 \ 99bb \ bdsmreclist \ BGTV9E93 \ cat \ :-D \ equations \ foo \ hia \ ReUariBw
01:35:53 <oerjan> `` mv junk/:-D emoticons
01:35:59 <zzo38> shachaf: w is small-endian 16-bits, W is big-endian 16-bits, d is small-endian 32-bits, D is big-endian 32-bits, q is small-endian 64-bits, Q is big-endian 64-bits, 1 or 0 is UTF-8, V is big-endian VLQ-8, v is small-endian VLQ-8, u is small-endian UTF-16, U is big-endian UTF-16.
01:36:07 <HackEgo> cat: junk/:-D: No such file or directory
01:36:35 <zzo38> shachaf: Those are the other formats which are supported.
01:36:37 <oerjan> `` mv junk/cat emoticons
01:36:41 <shachaf> `` hg log --removed ':-(' | grep summary:
01:36:46 <oerjan> shachaf: i figure that's a good place for them
01:36:50 <HackEgo> summary: <shachaf> rm :-( \ summary: <mroman> ` echo \xe2\x98\xb9 > "./:-("
01:37:02 <shachaf> oerjan: i guess you can undo that one
01:37:17 <zzo38> VLQ is the format used for time deltas in standard MIDI files (it is the big-endian format).
01:37:17 <shachaf> I think my font on the computer I did that on didn't support that character. Or something.
01:37:38 <oerjan> `` mv junk/99 src/99.sh
01:38:03 <moon__> what do you all want on cleanup terms, ill help
01:38:24 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access junk/........: No such file or directory
01:38:32 <HackEgo> junk/BGTV9E93 \ junk/ReUariBw
01:38:33 <HackEgo> 99bb \ bdsmreclist \ BGTV9E93 \ equations \ foo \ hia \ ReUariBw
01:38:40 <oerjan> moon__: do you need either of those two
01:38:52 <moon__> they are pastebin codes
01:39:00 <oerjan> i think they're just versions of ciol
01:39:13 <HackEgo> int main( int argc, char *argv[] ) {
01:39:15 -!- tromp_ has joined.
01:39:22 <shachaf> oerjan: if you need something, HackEgo would be a very bad place to put it hth
01:39:36 <oerjan> `` dos2unix junk/ReUariBw; cat junk/ReUariBw
01:39:38 <moon__> `dos2unix junk/ReUariB
01:39:39 <moon__> `dos2unix junk/ReUariBw
01:39:40 <HackEgo> int main( int argc, char *argv[] ) { \ int words = countwords(argv[1]); \ char english[80], piglatin[80]; \ initialize(english, piglatin); \ words = countwords(english); \ \ /* Now Pig Latin Translator in C converts English to Pig Latin */ \ convert(words, english, piglatin); \ writeoutput(piglatin); \ }
01:39:43 <HackEgo> sed: can't read junk/ReUariB: No such file or directory
01:39:54 <moon__> my failed piglatin translater lol
01:40:16 <oerjan> shachaf: well just on the principle that it's nice to have code for compiled things in bin/
01:40:41 <shachaf> oerjan: just require all programs to have a quine mode hth
01:41:20 <oerjan> shachaf: that reminds me of the times i've been `ls'ing quines/ and thinking "wait, only binaries? they should inclu... oh wait."
01:41:37 <HackEgo> c \ cat \ ciol \ perl \ python \ q \ ruby \ slashes
01:42:05 <HackEgo> c* \ cat* \ ciol \ perl \ python \ q* \ ruby \ slashes
01:42:21 <oerjan> one of _those_ languages.
01:42:31 <HackEgo> total 24 \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 7292 Dec 9 04:13 c \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 0 Dec 9 04:13 cat \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 51 May 3 23:10 ciol \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 0 Dec 9 04:13 perl \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 0 Dec 9 04:13 python \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 6507 Dec 9 04:13 q \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 0 Dec 9 04:13 ruby \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 1497 Dec
01:42:32 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 0 Dec 9 04:13 quines/ruby
01:42:49 <oerjan> shachaf: i think it helps perfectly
01:43:04 <shachaf> but i was going to do a joke thing and it doesn't work now
01:43:10 <HackEgo> You have discovered an eerie caven. The air above the dark stone floor is alive with vorices of purple light and dark, boiling clouds. Seemingly bottomless glowing pit mark the surface.
01:43:40 <shachaf> moon__: hey are you editing hackenv on the side
01:45:01 <shachaf> i almost always put my edits in the channel
01:45:17 <shachaf> because it seems pretty rude to me to do otherwise
01:45:38 * oerjan mostly agrees with shachaf although can see the other point
01:45:54 <shachaf> I suppose it's slightly less so when you "own" a file.
01:46:35 <HackEgo> erro "You have discovered an eerie caven. The air above the dark stone floor is alive with vorices of purple light and dark, boiling clouds. Seemingly bottomless glowing pit mark the surface."
01:46:45 <Phantom_Hoover> i guess it would be a bit rude to make a bunch of stuff and never tell anyone but it's equally annoying having people fumble around in the channel when they could use privmsg
01:47:49 <oerjan> `mkx bin/erro//echo -e '\000304'"$1"
01:47:58 <oerjan> get rid of that initial space
01:48:07 <HackEgo> You have discovered an eerie caven. The air above the dark stone floor is alive with vorices of purple light and dark, boiling clouds. Seemingly bottomless glowing pit mark the surface.
01:49:00 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it depends a _lot_ on whether they're just fumbling around with their own stuff or messing up things
01:49:03 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Well, I fumble around a lot in /msg, but I mutate in the channel.
01:49:12 <shachaf> Oh, you can also use /msg for pranks, of course.
01:49:43 <HackEgo> main=putStrLn$(<*>)(++)show"main=putStrLn$(<*>)(++)show"
01:50:45 <oerjan> that file must have been statically linked back when HackEgo had ghc...
01:51:04 <shachaf> no, i compiled it by hand and uploaded it just now
01:51:20 <shachaf> this prank isn't working out at all
01:51:24 <HackEgo> echo 'main=putStrLn$(<*>)(++)show"main=putStrLn$(<*>)(++)show"'
01:51:43 * oerjan feels weirdly satisfied
01:51:47 <shachaf> I should've left it in there for you to find out years later.
01:52:35 <oerjan> shachaf: you _might_ be able to actually upload a binary. although i guess you need an old enough version of linux...
01:52:48 <shachaf> What's wrong with compiling it to sh by hand?
01:53:07 <shachaf> In fact I might go ahead and do this for all the other quines.
01:53:35 <shachaf> this is the bit where oerjan tells me not to push it
01:53:42 <shachaf> Why doesn't HackEgo have GHC, anyway?
01:53:52 <moon__> people say a server move
01:53:56 <shachaf> I kind of want to `fetch it.
01:54:03 <shachaf> But it's a pretty big thing to put in the repository.
01:54:05 <oerjan> shachaf: Gregor didn't bother to reinstall it when he moved HackEgo
01:54:34 <oerjan> shachaf: also, with HackEgo's current speed you'll probably never get anything compiled.
01:55:13 <oerjan> i _am_ wondering if there are any leftover haskell binaries in bin though...
01:55:18 <oerjan> and if they still work.
01:55:39 <oerjan> i briefly thought fueue was one, but i think that's actually koen_'s C version
01:56:12 <HackEgo> bin/emmental: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, BuildID[sha1]=0x1dc625bf76c96f89951ecd418274d1eafd282487, not stripped
01:57:25 <oerjan> `` emmental <<<(cat src/underload.emm; echo '(:aSS)aSS')
01:57:26 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: `emmental <<<(cat src/underload.emm; echo '(:aSS)aSS')'
01:58:02 <oerjan> what is the syntax for that again
01:59:17 <oerjan> `` emmental <(cat src/underload.emm; echo '(:aSS)aSS')
01:59:18 <HackEgo> emmental: error while loading shared libraries: libgmp.so.3: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory \ cat: src/underload.emm: No such file or directory
02:01:08 <oerjan> did the server move really happen after i made underload.emm...
02:01:54 <oerjan> it's possible there was a second move with that cloudatcost thing.
02:02:45 <oerjan> and if that removed libgmp.so.3, that may have broken it
02:03:42 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /lib/libgmp*: No such file or directory
02:03:57 <HackEgo> cpp \ i386-linux-gnu \ init \ libcfont.so.0 \ libcfont.so.0.0.0 \ libconsole.so.0 \ libconsole.so.0.0.0 \ libctutils.so.0 \ libctutils.so.0.0.0 \ libip4tc.so.0 \ libip4tc.so.0.1.0 \ libip6tc.so.0 \ libip6tc.so.0.1.0 \ libipq.so.0 \ libipq.so.0.0.0 \ libiptc.so.0 \ libiptc.so.0.0.0 \ libxtables.so.7 \ libxtables.so.7.0.0 \ lsb \ modprobe.d \ systemd
02:04:16 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /usr/lib/*gmp*: No such file or directory
02:04:28 <HackEgo> cdecl \ c++decl \ dcc \ frink \ frink.jar \ interp \ karma
02:05:58 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /lib/*gmp*: No such file or directory
02:06:04 <oerjan> i guess it's just not there.
02:06:28 <HackEgo> /lib/libcfont.so.0 \ /lib/libcfont.so.0.0.0 \ /lib/libconsole.so.0 \ /lib/libconsole.so.0.0.0 \ /lib/libctutils.so.0 \ /lib/libctutils.so.0.0.0 \ /lib/libip4tc.so.0 \ /lib/libip4tc.so.0.1.0 \ /lib/libip6tc.so.0 \ /lib/libip6tc.so.0.1.0 \ /lib/libipq.so.0 \ /lib/libipq.so.0.0.0 \ /lib/libiptc.so.0 \ /lib/libiptc.so.0.0.0 \ /lib/libxtables.so.7 \
02:06:44 <oerjan> there is some stuff there. but seemingly no gmp.
02:06:56 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:07:40 <oerjan> anyway, it would be useless for new haskell programs, anyway.
02:08:41 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin
02:09:13 <oerjan> moon__: um we're not cleaning up bin
02:09:22 <oerjan> unless it's something you added recently
02:09:34 <moon__> what should i go through?
02:09:49 <HackEgo> 99bb \ bdsmreclist \ equations \ foo \ hia
02:10:03 <oerjan> this is sort of the stuff shachaf moved away
02:10:38 <oerjan> so if you made some of that...
02:10:47 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `!\\.': No such file or directory
02:10:52 <HackEgo> junk/99bb: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.26, BuildID[sha1]=0x5f6d77538aebf1a77d9a9653a43d2e1ff64c5135, not stripped
02:11:03 <moon__> someone made a unremoveable file
02:11:12 <oerjan> moon__: shachaf made that himself.
02:11:39 <oerjan> moon__: probably its name is not what you think it is.
02:11:57 <oerjan> that's the obvious way of doing it, as well as a favorite trick of shachaf
02:12:29 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `!\\.`': No such file or directory
02:12:30 <oerjan> that's not very useful, i think...
02:12:43 <HackEgo> shachaf fizzie fizzie mroman_ mroman_ mroman_ mroman_ mroman_ mroman_ mroman_ mroman_ mroman_ mroman_ oerjan ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull oerjan FreeFull nortti_
02:13:04 <oerjan> i think foo has existed many times. but i doubt it was ever useful :P
02:13:54 <moon__> share/ is full of code files
02:14:04 <moon__> that need moved to src
02:14:30 <oerjan> moon__: things in share may be referred to from otherwise
02:14:44 <moon__> `mv share/maze.c src/maze.c
02:14:45 <HackEgo> 8ballreplies \ autowelcome_status \ awesome \ cat \ Complaints.mp3 \ conscripts \ construct_grams.pl \ delvs-master \ dict-words \ esolangs.txt \ esolangs.txt.sorted \ hello \ hello2.c \ hello.c \ lua \ maimer \ maimery \ maze \ maze.c \ nothp \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ scapegoats \ sedtest \ UnicodeData.txt \ u
02:14:46 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `share/maze.c src/maze.c' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
02:14:47 <HackEgo> 8ballreplies \ autowelcome_status \ awesome \ cat \ Complaints.mp3 \ conscripts \ construct_grams.pl \ delvs-master \ dict-words \ esolangs.txt \ esolangs.txt.sorted \ hello \ hello2.c \ hello.c \ lua \ maimer \ maimery \ maze \ maze.c \ nothp \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ scapegoats \ sedtest \ UnicodeData.txt \ u
02:14:55 <moon__> `` mv share/maze.c src/maze.c
02:15:22 <HackEgo> mv: target `src/u8tbl.c' is not a directory
02:15:40 <HackEgo> 8ballreplies \ autowelcome_status \ awesome \ cat \ Complaints.mp3 \ conscripts \ construct_grams.pl \ delvs-master \ dict-words \ esolangs.txt \ esolangs.txt.sorted \ hello \ lua \ maimer \ maimery \ maze \ nothp \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ scapegoats \ sedtest \ UnicodeData.txt \ units.dat \ usercmds \ WordData
02:15:55 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: please don't be so careless
02:16:09 <oerjan> you might overwrite a file in the destination
02:16:34 <HackEgo> cat: usercmds: No such file or directory
02:16:43 <HackEgo> f: give the data from a file as the argument to a command like bf \ bf: simple brainfuck intepreter, bf brainfuck code
02:17:12 <moon__> that needs major extensions
02:17:15 <HackEgo> cat: esolangs.txt: No such file or directory
02:17:38 <moon__> adding other commands to it would be a good ide
02:17:45 <HackEgo> sed: can't read share/usercommands: No such file or directory
02:18:15 <oerjan> listen all, the main point of cleaning up is to keep the top directory of HackEgo readable.
02:18:25 <HackEgo> !\.´ \ advice \ bin \ canary \ cdescs \ cmdutil \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ junk \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ theorems \ tmflry \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
02:19:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quite: not found
02:19:13 <moon__> e also need to clean up other directorys for readability
02:19:35 <oerjan> the top one is used all the time
02:19:38 <moon__> or its not much of a clean up, its like cleaning the surface of the tile and forgetting the cracks
02:19:42 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/quine: 2: cd: can't cd to /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ ls: cannot access ????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory
02:19:46 <oerjan> and bin/ is too huge to be readable anyway
02:19:54 <HackEgo> â` \ `? \ `? `? \ ^ \ == \ \ _ÌÌÌ°_ÌÌ
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ͨÌÌ´Í \ ! \ ? \ ?? \ ¿ \ @ \ * \ \ \ ã \ ⨠\ ê® \ ⥠\ â \ ð \ ð \ ð \ ÌÌÍÌÌÌͦÌÍͪÍ̼̾ͦͨÍ
ÍÍÌ®Í̸̳Ì̤ÌÌ¯ÌªÌ¸ÌªÌ±Ì£Ì ÌºÌ¹ÍÌ©ÌÍÍÍÍÌÍ̪̮ÌÌÌ£ÍÌªÍ Í¢Í¢Ò̴̢_Ì¿ÌÍ£ÌͣͪÍÍÌÌÍÌÌÍ«ÌÍÌ£ÍÍ
02:20:02 <shachaf> what happened to the protection
02:20:04 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if /bin/ls -id "$@" 2>/dev/null | grep -q ^1053793 ; then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try listing it in private instead.'; else exec -a ls /bin/ls "$@"; fi
02:20:29 <oerjan> shachaf: probably changed inode again
02:20:31 <HackEgo> would be the set of rational numbers, if the Unicode Consortium weren't idiots who put it as ℚ.
02:20:38 <shachaf> why does it compare by inode
02:20:59 <moon__> is there a file compare command?
02:21:10 <HackEgo> cmp: missing operand after `cmp' \ cmp: Try `cmp --help' for more information.
02:21:14 <oerjan> shachaf: it was the simplest way to not care about the exact path used?
02:21:17 <HackEgo> Usage: cmp [OPTION]... FILE1 [FILE2 [SKIP1 [SKIP2]]] \ Compare two files byte by byte. \ \ The optional SKIP1 and SKIP2 specify the number of bytes to skip \ at the beginning of each file (zero by default). \ \ Mandatory arguments to long options are mandatory for short options too. \ -b, --print-bytes print differing bytes \ -i, --i
02:22:15 <HackEgo> merge: not enough arguments \ merge aborted
02:22:22 <HackEgo> merge: unknown option: -h \ merge: not enough arguments \ merge aborted
02:22:25 <HackEgo> Usage: merge [options] receiving-sibling parent other-sibling \ Options: \ -A Use `diff3 -A' style. \ -E Use `diff3 -E' style (default). \ -e Use `diff3 -e' style. \ -p Write to stdout instead of overwriting RECEIVING-SIBLING. \ -q Quiet mode; suppress conflict warnings. \ -LLABEL
02:22:47 <moon__> hppavilion[1]: what rule file says? :P
02:23:00 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/1053793/"$(ls -id /hackenv/wisdom | cut -d' ' -f 1)"/' bin/ls
02:23:01 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 22: unknown option to `s'
02:23:13 <moon__> what rules say not to?
02:23:27 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/1053793/"$(ls -id \/hackenv\/wisdom | cut -d' ' -f 1)"/' bin/ls
02:23:30 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 46: unterminated `s' command
02:24:36 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's#1053793#"$(ls -id /hackenv/wisdom | cut -d\ -f 1)"#' bin/ls
02:25:17 <HackEgo> cut: the delimiter must be a single character \ Try `cut --help' for more information. \ cut: the delimiter must be a single character \ Try `cut --help' for more information. \ cut: the delimiter must be a single character \ Try `cut --help' for more information. \ cut: the delimiter must be a single character \ Try `cut --help' for more informati
02:25:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rules: not found
02:25:44 * oerjan remembers he's retired
02:25:45 <moon__> there are none hppavilion[1]
02:25:47 <HackEgo> tswett Moon_ tswett Moon__
02:26:08 <moon__> `congratulate hppavilion[1]
02:26:09 <HackEgo> congratulations fungot, you are the ruler of the chat!
02:26:21 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's#-d #-d\\ #' bin/ls
02:26:46 <moon__> `congratulate hppavilion[1]
02:27:08 <oerjan> i think someone's prank just worked.
02:27:10 <HackEgo> congratulations fungot, you are the ruler of the chat!
02:28:01 <HackEgo> echo congratulations fungot, you are the ruler of the chat!
02:28:06 <HackEgo> fungot Moon_ fungot Moon__
02:28:14 <HackEgo> U+1D548 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: f0 9d 95 88 UTF-16BE: d835dd48 Decimal: 𝕈 \ () \ Uppercase: U+1D548 \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned)
02:28:26 <moon__> were jamming up hackegos buffer
02:28:36 <hppavilion[1]> moon__: culprits2 is my new-and-improved version of culprits
02:28:45 <moon__> how much better is it?
02:28:57 <HackEgo> GOAT=`shuf -n1 share/scapegoats`; hg log --removed -- "$1" | grep summary: | sed "s/hppavilion\[1\]/$GOAT/g" | sed "s/ +/ /g" | sed "s/^ //" | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}'| sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
02:29:31 <moon__> you edited out your own name
02:29:40 <HackEgo> zzo38 \ oerjan \ tswett \ \ fungot
02:30:03 <moon__> `culprits bin/congratulations
02:30:27 <moon__> `culprits bin/congratulations
02:30:48 <HackEgo> cat: culprits: No such file or directory
02:30:56 <HackEgo> GOAT=`shuf -n1 share/scapegoats`; hg log --removed -- "$1" | grep summary: | sed "s/hppavilion\[1\]/$GOAT/g" | sed "s/ +/ /g" | sed "s/^ //" | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}'| sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
02:31:06 <tswett> `run echo 'echo "$(echo -e '\''\000304'\'')$1"' > bin/erro
02:31:06 <moon__> ...................................................................................................................
02:31:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: slap: not found
02:31:51 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
02:32:05 * oerjan looks around ominously
02:32:14 <shachaf> moon__: You're being pretty unpleasant.
02:32:47 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: `ban ki-moon__
02:32:57 <hppavilion[1]> And HackEgo is stopped now, so my fixing is frozen
02:33:00 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] just melted off their fingers!
02:33:15 <shachaf> And also you messed up my HackEgo prank.
02:33:26 <shachaf> Now we're going to have to wait for a long time until it recovers.
02:34:16 <moon__> that regestered with hackego >_>\
02:34:36 <moon__> anyone have a triva bot?
02:34:59 <shachaf> I thought you were leaving.
02:35:03 <hppavilion[1]> moon__: Which we can't use right now because of your maimery
02:35:40 <HackEgo> echo "$(echo -e '\000304')$1"
02:35:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: slap: not found
02:36:04 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: slap: not found
02:36:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: slap: not found
02:36:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: slap: not found
02:36:28 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] just got fried by jumpercables!
02:36:29 <HackEgo> Now where did I leave my jumper cables...
02:36:29 <HackEgo> *grumbles something about a broken hacksaw*
02:36:29 <HackEgo> *grumbles something about a broken hacksaw*
02:36:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ban: not found
02:36:29 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] just lost an arm!
02:36:29 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] just melted off their fingers!
02:36:30 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] just melted off their fingers!
02:36:33 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] just lost a leg!
02:36:40 * oerjan thinks that maybe, just maybe, HackEgo needs another move.
02:36:44 <zzo38> OK now I have implemented the Yliluoma algorithm.
02:36:53 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
02:37:05 <zzo38> (Not posted yet though)
02:37:23 <zzo38> An example of its use is: ff-reduce y,299,587,114,30,40,3,4 z 080000 201A0B 432817 492910 234309 5D4F1E 9C6B20 A9220F 2B347C 2B7409 D0CA40 E8A077 6A94AB D5C4B3 FCE76E FCFAE2
02:37:28 <moon__> i've toggled on a bot to keep us busy for a while (its a bot code im studying for jIRCii)
02:37:51 <zemhill_> hppavilion[1]: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
02:37:51 <zemhill_> moon__: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
02:38:21 <moon__> leme check the readme for the bot
02:38:40 <oerjan> also, EgoBot also uses !, although it's not here
02:39:10 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 0: no previous regular expression
02:39:57 <tswett> `erro I'm not sure what the word "erro" is supposed to mean. Is it "error" with the last letter chopped off?
02:40:00 <HackEgo> I'm not sure what the word "erro" is supposed to mean. Is it "error" with the last letter chopped off?
02:40:12 <HackEgo> hg log --removed -- "$1" | grep summary: | sed "s/ +/ /g" | sed "s/^ //" | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}'| sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
02:40:14 <shachaf> `culprits2 wisdom/itymology
02:40:24 <HackEgo> GOAT=`shuf -n1 share/scapegoats`; hg log --removed -- "$1" | grep summary: | sed "s/$GOAT/hppavilion[1]/g" | sed "s/ +/ /g" | sed "s/^ //" | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}'| sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
02:40:50 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: YES IT IS
02:41:30 * oerjan thinks ¤ is a good bot prefix hth hth
02:42:10 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: The international hub of solid matrices | Home of the world's largest ball of threads | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Istanbul (not Konstantiniyye (not Constantinopolis/Constantinople (not Byzant.
02:42:11 * shachaf thinks hth hth is a good bot suffix hth hth
02:42:32 * oerjan thinks he should try to remember elliott's script doesn't trigger on /me
02:42:45 -!- nycs has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
02:42:48 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I'm the one who added the long city joke, so I'm allowed to break it :P
02:43:13 <shachaf> You can remove it if you want, though.
02:43:18 -!- shachaf has left.
02:43:27 -!- oerjan has set topic: The international hub of solid matrices | Home of the world's largest ball of threads | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Paris (not Lutetia).
02:44:02 <oerjan> i cannot quite remember if i've used that before
02:44:50 <oerjan> i think some of us old farts are getting exhausted by the channel.
02:45:07 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: hey no changing until a day has passed
02:45:45 <oerjan> didn't we use St. Petersburg already (although with the interim)
02:46:20 <oerjan> anyway, Lutetia deserves to be there, because Asterix hth
02:46:25 <moon__> do we have a diff for strings?
02:47:02 <oerjan> i think there's a shell command for comparing strings
02:47:27 <oerjan> but i also suspect there are subtleties with it
02:48:32 <moon__> *knows someone might be making a joke in the backround*
02:48:52 <oerjan> moon__: shocking. you can check the repository url if you want.
02:49:43 <oerjan> mind you, that may not help with HackEgo's speed. (and how in the world does the wiki manage to survive on the same server?)
02:49:54 <moon__> `mk share/usercmds// this file is incomplete, sorry!
02:49:55 <HackEgo> Surely you ment rm, right? the real me is in bin/derp
02:50:37 <HackEgo> erro "Surely you ment rm, right? the real me is in bin/derp"
02:50:46 <HackEgo> cat: test: No such file or directory
02:51:25 -!- shachaf has joined.
02:51:31 <moon__> `mk share/usercmds// this file is incomplete, sorry!
02:51:32 <HackEgo> Surely you ment rm, right? the real me is in bin/derp
02:51:32 <shachaf> how about you leave HackEgo alone
02:52:30 <oerjan> _so_ hard to remember.
02:52:33 <shachaf> `` mv bin/derp/mk bin/mk; rmdir bin/derp
02:52:55 <shachaf> nothing you've been doing has been an improvement in any sense
02:53:12 <moon__> ok, srry, ill be helpful
02:57:27 -!- moon__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
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03:19:24 <oerjan> Horribly Pedantic Point Of View
03:24:56 <\oren\> CIPOV completely insane point of view
03:25:56 <\oren\> speaking of completely insane, I should work on my alternate standard library for C
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04:18:58 <HackEgo> TAS is a tool-assisted speedrun: a race in which participants must use quality tools such as the PHP hammer, Autoconf, and the Arkenpliers to assist them in running.
04:20:00 <oerjan> `` mv wisdom/ta{,s}; sed -i 's/^/A /' wisdom/tas
04:21:41 <shachaf> oerjan: coppro didn't like the article.
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04:23:14 <oerjan> i didn't notice em answering at all
04:24:28 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/A //' wisdom/tas
04:26:24 <shachaf> coppro: You didn't explain why, though.
04:26:34 <shachaf> I'd prefer it with the article, or at least keeping its articles consistent.
04:26:52 <shachaf> I guess the obvious solution is to translate all wisdom entries to Russian.
04:49:53 <\oren\> argh now I type "epidose" i am not having a good time typing letters in the right order today
04:50:51 <\oren\> i think qwerty keyboards are to blame
04:53:45 <shachaf> \oren\: an epidose can be just the ticket if you've got allergies hth
04:54:16 <shachaf> i should've said "allergic episode"
04:55:37 <shachaf> maybe if i hadn't squandered it i would've earned a swat
04:56:09 <oerjan> shachaf: impossible since i thought of the same pun before reading your line hth
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04:56:30 <shachaf> wouldn't that earn me a double swatting
04:56:42 <shachaf> well, only if i typed it a split second before you did
04:56:45 <oerjan> no, swattings are fermions hth
04:57:13 <shachaf> i guess i could've gone for epidose/monodose
04:57:45 <oerjan> also a problem with allergies
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04:59:24 <oerjan> "Doctor, I keep sneezing all the time!" "That's because you've got a nose of doom."
05:02:25 * oerjan realizes one thing about busy beaver and TMs
05:02:45 <oerjan> to exclude a TM, you don't necessarily need to prove whether or not it halts.
05:03:02 <oerjan> you could just prove that _if_ it halts, it doesn't take too long.
05:03:17 <oerjan> i wonder if everyone's considered that :P
05:05:16 <pikhq> I'm not certain that helps that much.
05:06:00 <oerjan> well it could be a flaw in trying to use a TM as proof that BB(n) is not provable
05:06:50 <oerjan> i'm not saying this helps you compute BB(n)
05:08:06 <oerjan> i'm saying it means that just because an axiom system cannot prove a TM halts, you cannot conclude that BB(n) for n its number of states is unprovable.
05:08:30 * oerjan swats himself -----###
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05:22:04 <zzo38> Internet Quiz Engine has been partially restored. The menu of quizzes doesn't exist, but you can now run existing quiz files at least.
05:27:16 <zzo38> See if you know these questions: gopher://zzo38computer.org/1quiz.run*quiz01.
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05:39:22 <shachaf> I don't know how to use Gopher from my phone.
05:39:29 <shachaf> What happened to the menu?
05:42:04 <zzo38> It is a new computer with Linux (the old computer was Windows) so it requires the server to be redone. Internet Quiz Engine itself works fine on Linux (it is just a C program), although the menu is different.
05:43:25 <zzo38> You can download an extension for it, although it isn't actually very good (it has some problems), although it will do. Alternatively, write your own gopher client; it is not so difficult.
05:44:54 <zzo38> (Firefox used to support gopher before they removed it, although the old support also wasn't very good)
05:45:09 <zzo38> If you have Windows, you can use a gopher client I wrote for Windows.
05:45:52 <pikhq> There is also a Gopher proxy you can use; I can't say how well it functions, however.
05:45:53 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/prog/visgopher/visgopher.exe or Setup.exe if you want/need an installer.
05:47:08 <pikhq> Perhaps more usefully, it could be on FTP.
05:47:20 <pikhq> I don't think I've heard of a system missing an FTP client.
05:47:26 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: New rule: FTP clients may only be distributed via FTP
05:47:36 <zzo38> I have no FTP server though.
05:47:50 <zzo38> (If you have a FTP server, you are free to make a copy!)
05:47:52 <pikhq> Understandable. FTP is kinda scow.
05:48:37 <hppavilion[1]> MSCOMCTL.OCX is not present... or missing a dependency... or something
05:49:20 <pikhq> zzo38: Did... did you write that in Visual Basic?
05:49:38 <zzo38> Yes I did write it in Visual Basic
05:49:46 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Try the installer then?
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05:50:19 <pikhq> It's been so long since I've seen something need the VB runtime.
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05:52:31 <shachaf> You wrote your server in FreeBASIC or something like that, right?
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05:54:37 <zzo38> Yes but I wrote a new server in C
06:03:16 <zzo38> I wrote a gopher client with UNIX shell-scripts too but I will make a new one
06:04:49 <zzo38> It is fine for making GUI programs in Windows, but not much else.
06:05:07 <shachaf> Why did you write it in C?
06:06:08 <zzo38> Because it is good idea, I think.
06:07:56 <\oren\> most of the cgi for my website is in C
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06:09:36 <shachaf> Well, they don't call it perlgi.
06:14:49 <Hoolootwo> it's incredibly easy to miss a condition somewhere and render your whole server insecure
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06:18:44 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you publish the source code for your server?
06:19:58 <zzo38> shachaf: So far as I have not done so.
06:25:35 <zzo38> Now I made it available http://zzo38computer.org/prog/cgophserv.zip
06:27:54 <shachaf> Is it also available via Gopher?
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06:37:17 <shachaf> What kinds of cards do you have?
06:38:10 <Hoolootwo> I'm not too familiar with gopher, but it looks like I would have arbitrary read to any file
06:38:28 <Hoolootwo> given that the user the server is running under can access it
06:38:30 <zzo38> shachaf: Could you be more specific?
06:39:27 <zzo38> Hoolootwo: My implementation does not allow access to any file unless it is listed in the database.
06:40:09 <Hoolootwo> ah okay, I see, that's a command line parameter
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11:01:17 <int-e> So somebody claims they have a 31 state TM for the Goldbach conjecture now.
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11:25:44 <FreeFull> int-e: Have they shared the TM?
11:26:03 <int-e> no, they're treating it as a golfing contest, hash only so far
11:26:03 <b_jonas> FreeFull: that's what they claim, but nobody made a trusted golf server, and a Goldbach program is very hard to automatically validate anyway, so we can't tell.
11:26:09 <b_jonas> FreeFull: they ahven't shared the machine yet.
11:26:52 <b_jonas> Maybe they'll share later, and then we might find if it's right or wrong.
11:27:22 <b_jonas> Maybe they secretly have a proof for Goldbach's conjecture, but didn't want to give that away by saying they have a 1 state machine.
11:27:50 <FreeFull> I mean, I believe something like 4888 states
11:28:31 <int-e> testing primality is not that hard
11:29:14 <int-e> the 93 states I could believe easily... but 31 is getting impressive.
11:30:23 <b_jonas> I have a dumb question. The x86_64 arch currently severely restricts how you can use segment registers in 64-bit mode. Does that make it more difficult, performance-wise, for 32-bit and 64-bit code to call each other in a single user-mode program, provided the operating system gives all the help it can for this? Eg. do you have to call into the OS to switch?
11:31:08 <b_jonas> Obviously it's difficult for the higher level toolkits (the C compiler and libc and other libraries) to support mixing 32-bit and 64-bit code, but here I'm asking about what the CPU architecture itself currently allows.
11:31:19 <FreeFull> http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2725#comment-1086583 Found the comment
11:33:24 <b_jonas> Ok, that's probably a stupid question. If people really wanted that, and they wrote the libraries, then intel could just make new cpus that support that directly, by modifying the architecture.
11:33:42 <int-e> two interesting details about the TM implementation: a) apparently the tape is unbounded to both sides b) transitions can also stay on the current cell (of course that's never useful)
11:36:29 <b_jonas> int-e: I'd be more interested in what the Laconic language is like. Or did someone read that yet and add more stuff to the wiki? Let me check
11:37:52 <int-e> you don't have to read the paper for that. https://github.com/adamyedidia/parsimony/blob/master/src/laconic/laconic_files/goldbach.lac
11:38:40 <int-e> (no, nobody added anything to the wiki)
11:41:35 <int-e> https://github.com/adamyedidia/parsimony/tree/master/tex/docs has some documentation about laconic too
11:45:23 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, I know there's docs on github, I say so in the wiki page
11:46:53 <int-e> I'm not keeping track of who edits the wiki.
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12:26:12 <Taneb> Programming language where you can reverse the call stack
12:27:04 <b_jonas> timecube.com is no longer online?
12:27:51 <Taneb> Yeah, it fell off the internet earlier this year
12:28:23 <b_jonas> strange how the internets change. some years ago, geocities went offline, now timecube
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12:30:38 <Taneb> I... created zero esolangs between 2012 and 2016
12:30:54 <Taneb> That's longer than I thought
12:33:26 <Taneb> Almost 4 years sans inspiration
12:44:19 <lifthrasiir> idea: The world's last programming language
12:46:26 <Taneb> lifthrasiir, ais523 already had that idea, it's called Feather
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12:54:30 <b_jonas> I was wondering if it would make sense to have haskell-like question mark variable type constraints in rust, in such a way that you can not only copy the question mark variable to a generic value when you constrain it, but also move, borrow, or mut borrow into it (when the types allows this),
12:54:53 <b_jonas> and perhaps even return a question mark constraint out from a function.
12:56:57 <b_jonas> If you can make the move (consume, use-once) constraint into a generic work, then I think copy, borrow, and mut borrow must work automatically, because it's just moving a copy, a ref, or a ref mut into a function.
12:57:21 <b_jonas> But I'm not sure how compatible this idea is with rust in first place.
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13:20:25 <int-e> b_jonas: http://sprunge.us/DPdg contains a 23 states primality test which feels clumsy to me... it should be possible to use fewer states. so the 31 states now look plausible to me.
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13:42:09 <b_jonas> int-e: 31 states is nice, but I don't really find any of the Goldbach stuff too impressive. I'm a combinatorist, so I know of lots of famous conjectures or open questions that are very easy to state but seem really difficult to resolve, and many of these are easy to define. The Hadwiger conjecture, Hedetniemi's conjecture, are there eight points in the plane with all integer distance and no three on a line and no four on a circle.
13:42:21 <b_jonas> \ The Hadwiger conjecture, Hedetniemi's conjecture, are there eight points in the plane with all integer distance and no three on a line and no four on a circle.
13:42:32 <b_jonas> People trying to compute BB(5) have found less famous ones.
13:43:10 <b_jonas> The short Turing machines whose halting on blank tape is independent of ZFC which the article constructs seem more notable
13:43:53 <b_jonas> That isn't so easy to minimize, because you actually have to prove the problem independent, rather than just find a very hard one.
13:44:22 <int-e> it's not of theoretical interest, it's a golfing exercise
13:44:30 <int-e> (the goldbach one)
13:44:57 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, both are only golfing, not theoretical interest.
13:45:03 <int-e> it's just that 4888 states was ridiculously big.
13:45:52 <b_jonas> Mind you, maybe the ones I mentioned like Hadwiger's conjecture are bad examples, because those aren't the ones thought so hard that probably nobody will solve them in a hundred years, merely the ones that are thought so hard that they need a genius to prove.
13:46:57 <int-e> I think the 7000 states are also way too big, but as you say it's much harder; you actually have to implement a checker for proofs in ZFC (or whatever axiomatic basis and logic you pick).
13:47:50 <int-e> (well, as far as theory goes)
13:48:03 <b_jonas> Hmm, now I actually wonder if we can find a famous conjecture that's both thought to be so hard that nobody will solve it (like Collatz) yet aren't thought to be independent of ZFC, and are still Pi_1 statements.
13:48:17 <b_jonas> I'll have to search for a good example for that.
13:50:00 <b_jonas> That might be difficult, because very few mathematicians have enough reputation to believable declare a conjecture that difficultg.
14:04:41 <b_jonas> One that would work is the value of the Ramsey number R(6, 6), which can actually be computed in a time with a known bound.
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16:24:44 <zzo38> OK, do you have a better question?
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16:38:31 <zzo38> Is it possible with a "less" program to tell it to not pause after executing a command?
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16:42:13 <tswett> Of course, if ZFC does not prove that a Turing machine halts, then that Turing machine does not halt.
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16:44:31 * moon__ is waiting for activity not done by crickets chirping
16:45:14 <tswett> Oh yeah, of course there's a 1-state Turing machine that halts if and only if the Goldbach conjecture is false.
16:45:34 <zzo38> I don't expect you should need ZFC, but I have even said before too, the Turing machine will halt if and only if it is provable that it halts. (You cannot necessarily prove that it won't halt, though.)
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16:51:24 <HackEgo> You have discovered an eerie caven. The air above the dark stone floor is alive with vorices of purple light and dark, boiling clouds. Seemingly bottomless glowing pit mark the surface.
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16:59:21 <HackEgo> zzo38 \ oerjan \ tswett \ \ fungot
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17:00:01 <zzo38> I found out a hack to make less to not pause, by making the command to request device attributes of the terminal and then add a key binding to parse the response from the terminal.
17:02:34 <tswett> I see that Scott Aaronson has disproved the conjecture that all perfect squares are less than 5.
17:03:05 <tswett> He did so with the assistance of a computer program. After running for more than an hour, it produced a counterexample.
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17:05:36 <moon__> it might have suffered a overflow in a variable
17:07:33 <int-e> how is oerjan's zhoily project going?
17:08:06 <int-e> (I guess it got stuck at dhoily)
17:08:08 <moon__> but ibin should be merged ith bin
17:08:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bf8: not found
17:08:49 <fizzie> It's full of commands intended for a different calling convention.
17:08:50 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
17:09:13 <fizzie> `! bf8 ,.!x (not sure whether it supported that syntax)
17:10:06 <fizzie> Possibly not. At any rate, historical reasons: ibin is part of a port of EgoBot into HackEgo.
17:10:35 <moon__> what, is egobot 'dead'?
17:10:50 <fizzie> More like undetermined.
17:11:35 <fizzie> Both HackEgo and EgoBot are by Gregor, who's been somewhat "gone" for a while now.
17:12:18 <int-e> speaking of gone... Registry Expiry Date: 2016-05-24T19:21:16Z
17:12:31 <boily> int-ello. the alphaboilhelloerjan project got as high as ihoily hth
17:12:42 <fizzie> int-e: Oh, yeah. I thought about that yesterday.
17:12:55 <fizzie> int-e: Maybe I should just take over, and then ask for contributions from folks.
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17:15:01 <moon__> why doesnt someone make a new bot like hackego thats actively developed?
17:16:18 <fizzie> I'm guessing because there's nothing *too* badly wrong with the current one.
17:16:44 <moon__> besides the ancient operating system
17:17:00 <fizzie> I don't think that's really been a problem.
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17:17:30 <fizzie> Losing access to the logs did break a couple of useful things, though.
17:17:53 <fizzie> They used to be visible to HackEgo.
17:19:24 <moon__> hackego need to become opensource
17:19:49 <fizzie> https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot
17:20:44 <fizzie> Well, + https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/umlbox/wiki/Home which it relies on.
17:21:06 <fizzie> There might be a little bit divergence between what's running as HackEgo and what's there, but hopefully not much.
17:21:16 <moon__> i actually thought it was a freenode to shh link
17:26:21 <moon__> which i have been wasteing my time writing for a while
17:36:31 <fizzie> I've made plans for a HackEgo-alike that runs Z80 binaries (with a similar "versioned persistent storage" approach), but never bothered to finish it, since I doubt people would use it much -- the barrier to entry would be much higher than with a "normal" OS.
17:39:55 <APic> Can You define „normal“?
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17:41:20 <fizzie> Not really, but HackEgo certainly qualifies as it.
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17:42:25 <termbot> info: guest machine now booting
17:42:31 <termbot> -Sandbot connects you to an emulated machine you can fully control from irc. Be bold in experimenting, anything you do can be reverted.
17:42:31 <termbot> -Use a line with C> as the prefix in to give commands, normally just text that is entered on the terminal. Using backtick in the line allows for some escapes and commands.
17:42:31 <termbot> -Special characters: `q = backtick, `o = eof (^Z), `r = enter, `t = tab, `b = backspace, `i = interrupt (^C), `e = escape, `x1f = any byte by hex code.
17:42:37 <termbot> -Special commands: `h = suppress automatic return at end of this line, `.d = turn power off (will reboot at next input), `.ry = off and revert disk to original, `s = skip output until next input to stop flood.
17:42:43 <termbot> -The machine has DOS 6.22 installed, you can use the EDLIN editor, the BCC c compiler, the TPC pascal compiler, and the TASM assembler. Use the WDIR or SDIR commands to list a diretory.
17:43:05 <APic> fizzie: If You write so.
17:43:05 <b_jonas> someone voice termbot on #esoteric so that the irc server doesn't drop lines to the channel when it's outputting lines fast
17:43:26 <fizzie> Are you sure that would be a net win?
17:43:28 <b_jonas> the evil demon has entered
17:44:18 <fizzie> I, uh. I think that's enough?
17:44:29 <b_jonas> yes, it did drop some lines
17:44:51 <b_jonas> the problem is that the irc server sends the bot a notice when it drops a line that way, but you can't tell which line it's dropped
17:45:06 <b_jonas> also later lines might not be dropped
17:45:15 <b_jonas> so I can't really fix it on client side
17:45:20 <b_jonas> luckily channel voice fixes that
17:45:27 <APic> „diretory“ is misspelt
17:45:29 <fizzie> You can "fix" it on the client side with proper flow control.
17:45:49 <b_jonas> APic: let me fix that locally
17:45:59 <APic> Would be funnier to hotfix it here ;=P
17:46:04 <b_jonas> C>edlin \path\serial\help.txt
17:46:04 <termbot> +edlin \path\serial\help.txt
17:46:19 <termbot> - 5:*The machine has DOS 6.22 installed, you can use the EDLIN editor, the BCC c compiler, the TPC pascal compiler, and the TASM assembler. Use the WDIR or SDIR commands to list a diretory.
17:46:29 <fizzie> I've tried a couple of times to hot-patch fungot on the channel, but it approximately never succeeds.
17:46:29 <fungot> fizzie: ( we recommend that the over the top of the support of the texas market seems that we
17:46:33 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
17:46:40 <fizzie> Also the enron style is boreding.
17:47:23 <termbot> - 4: Special commands: `h = suppress automatic return at end of this line, `.d = turn power off (will reboot at next input), `.ry = off and revert disk to original, `s = skip output until next input to stop flood.
17:47:41 <b_jonas> C>edlin \path\serial\help.txt
17:47:41 <termbot> +edlin \path\serial\help.txt
17:47:45 <termbot> - 5:*The machine has DOS 6.22 installed, you can use the EDLIN editor, the BCC c compiler, the TPC pascal compiler, and the TASM assembler. Use the WDIR or SDIR commands to list a diretory.
17:48:00 <termbot> - 5:*The machine has DOS 6.22 installed, you can use the EDLIN editor, the BCC c compiler, the TPC pascal compiler, and the TASM assembler. Use the WDIR or SDIR commands to list a directory.
17:48:17 <termbot> -Sandbot connects you to an emulated machine you can fully control from irc. Be bold in experimenting, anything you do can be reverted.
17:48:17 <termbot> -Use a line with C> as the prefix in to give commands, normally just text that is entered on the terminal. Using backtick in the line allows for some escapes and commands.
17:48:17 <termbot> -Special characters: `q = backtick, `o = eof (^Z), `r = enter, `t = tab, `b = backspace, `i = interrupt (^C), `e = escape, `x1f = any byte by hex code.
17:48:22 <termbot> -Special commands: `h = suppress automatic return at end of this line, `.d = turn power off (will reboot at next input), `.ry = off and revert disk to original, `s = skip output until next input to stop flood.
17:48:28 <termbot> -The machine has DOS 6.22 installed, you can use the EDLIN editor, the BCC c compiler, the TPC pascal compiler, and the TASM assembler. Use the WDIR or SDIR commands to list a directory.
17:48:46 <b_jonas> better (will be lost next time you revert the disk)
17:50:13 <b_jonas> Note that I added a `s command, so if you accidentally type a command that gives lots of output (like sdir /s c:\ ) then you can stop the flood
17:50:54 <b_jonas> So C>`s will skip all output lines starting from when it gets that command (even lines that are already in the buffer) up to the start of your next input line
17:51:28 <b_jonas> It works for both lines that the emulated machines have already output, and ones it will output later
17:54:36 <fizzie> Taneb: Do you know a "Michael van Doorn" from them Netherlands? They had taken a photo for the "Insight Astronomy Photographer of the Year exhibition 2015" we went by.
17:55:05 <Taneb> It's a relatively common name in the Netherlands, so I'm told
17:55:22 <fungot> b_jonas: pero el loco me fnord fnord en oikein tiedä, mun fnord on vitun kipee what
17:55:22 <fungot> termbot: you shouldn't hesitate to try the hurd.
17:55:23 <termbot> -C:\TERMBOT>you shouldn't hesitate to try the hurd.
17:55:57 <Taneb> Why is there an almost botloop
17:56:16 <b_jonas> Taneb: yeah... I should change termbot's output a notice
17:56:20 <b_jonas> you can actually botloop it this way
17:56:38 <Taneb> I remember in another channel we had a bot that printed the titles of web links
17:56:44 <Taneb> And another bot that could evaluate brainfuck
17:57:04 <Taneb> We caused a botloop using those two features and a carefully constructed web page
17:57:10 -!- termbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:57:25 <b_jonas> Taneb: nice. I made botloops a few times too
17:57:25 -!- termbot has joined.
17:57:35 <termbot> info: guest machine now booting
17:57:49 <fungot> b_jonas: and there are several available for free.
17:57:51 <Taneb> Now the channel has a policy that all bots must use and respect notice
17:58:05 <ybden> D: NOTICEs ping me every time they're sent
17:58:13 -!- boily has quit (Quit: OBLIVIOUS CHICKEN).
17:58:17 <ybden> Also, they render horribly in several clients
17:58:25 <Taneb> Unfortunately, clients often don't respect notice
17:58:31 <b_jonas> ybden: yes, those stupid client bugs are why most bots don't use notice
17:58:48 <Taneb> ybden, the client I had on my chromebook just put the notice in whatever channel I happened to be looking at
17:58:54 <Taneb> Without any indication of where it was from
17:58:57 <b_jonas> I can change it back, but then I should figure out something else to avoid bot loops
17:59:01 <ybden> Taneb: Hmm, doesn't HexChat do that?
17:59:08 -!- Kaynato has joined.
17:59:15 <b_jonas> most bots require at least some prefix, but fungot doesn't, that's the problme
17:59:15 <Taneb> ybden, no, Hexchat just renders them ugly
17:59:15 <fungot> b_jonas: unusual choice to power a website but it is
17:59:20 <ybden> b_jonas: <http://ayu.smar.fi:7070/0/zwsp>, perhaps?
17:59:32 <Taneb> As "-termbot/#esoteric-" instead of "termbot"
17:59:34 <b_jonas> ybden: won't help with fungot
17:59:34 <fungot> b_jonas: and besides, there's also the issue that we'll need to use different languages for different problems. though the 2.x series is quite a novel way to write it
17:59:34 <fungot> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|metasepia|ruddy|preflex|evalj|idris-bot|passwordBOT|jconn|applybot|blsqbot|fnordbot)!
17:59:43 <ybden> b_jonas: Hmm, what's the issue?
17:59:43 <b_jonas> ybden: fungot replies to anything regardless the prefix
17:59:44 <fungot> b_jonas: what is a stream of 16-bit integer code units. those 10 monetary units to 10 companies/ other banks/ whatever for one year in a separate c file, that is
17:59:45 <fizzie> ^ignore ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|metasepia|ruddy|preflex|evalj|idris-bot|passwordBOT|jconn|applybot|blsqbot|fnordbot|termbot)!
17:59:59 <fizzie> I just keep adding to the list.
18:00:08 <b_jonas> ybden: notice that there's already a hyphen or plus prefix in the output
18:00:20 <ybden> b_jonas: Ah, is that to stop it from responding to itself?
18:00:28 <ybden> Since it echoes commands?
18:00:32 <b_jonas> ybden: no, it's to stop most other bots from responding to it
18:00:39 <b_jonas> (and also to distinguish continuation lines)
18:01:22 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
18:01:28 <fizzie> Fortunately thuthubot isn't here.
18:01:34 <b_jonas> I guess I could just ignore fungot
18:01:56 <b_jonas> oh, you made fungot ignore termbot?
18:02:15 <b_jonas> ok wait, I'll switch it back to privmsg
18:02:17 -!- termbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:02:47 -!- termbot has joined.
18:03:03 <termbot> info: guest machine now booting
18:03:08 <termbot> -C:\TERMBOT>echo hello, fungot
18:04:06 <b_jonas> ok, go on and experiment on it, people
18:04:43 <b_jonas> moon__: try C>help, that tells you
18:04:46 <termbot> -Sandbot connects you to an emulated machine you can fully control from irc. Be bold in experimenting, anything you do can be reverted.
18:04:46 <termbot> -Use a line with C> as the prefix in to give commands, normally just text that is entered on the terminal. Using backtick in the line allows for some escapes and commands.
18:04:46 <termbot> -Special characters: `q = backtick, `o = eof (^Z), `r = enter, `t = tab, `b = backspace, `i = interrupt (^C), `e = escape, `x1f = any byte by hex code.
18:04:52 <termbot> -Special commands: `h = suppress automatic return at end of this line, `.d = turn power off (will reboot at next input), `.ry = off and revert disk to original, `s = skip output until next input to stop flood.
18:04:59 <termbot> -The machine has DOS 6.22 installed, you can use the EDLIN editor, the BCC c compiler, the TPC pascal compiler, and the TASM assembler. Use the WDIR or SDIR commands to list a directory.
18:05:12 <termbot> -File name must be specified
18:05:51 <termbot> -Copy [startline],[endline],toline[,times]C
18:05:51 <termbot> -Delete [startline][,endline]D
18:05:52 <termbot> -List [startline][,endline]L
18:05:52 <termbot> -Move [startline],[endline],tolineM
18:05:53 <termbot> -Page [startline][,endline]P
18:05:54 <termbot> -Quit (throw away changes) Q
18:05:57 <termbot> -Replace [startline][,endline][?]R[oldtext][CTRL+Znewtext]
18:06:00 <termbot> -Search [startline][,endline][?]Stext
18:06:02 <termbot> -Transfer [toline]T[drive:][path]filename
18:06:34 <termbot> -. <D> .. <D> a.txt 1K mk 1K
18:07:20 <moon__> how do we add commands?
18:07:27 <termbot> -File name must be specified
18:07:28 <shachaf> This bot is way too spammy.
18:07:40 <termbot> -Copy [startline],[endline],toline[,times]C
18:07:40 <termbot> -Delete [startline][,endline]D
18:07:41 <termbot> -List [startline][,endline]L
18:07:41 <termbot> -Move [startline],[endline],tolineM
18:07:41 <shachaf> Could you limit the output in the channel to one line, like HackEgo?
18:07:42 <termbot> -Page [startline][,endline]P
18:07:43 <termbot> -Quit (throw away changes) Q
18:07:46 <termbot> -Replace [startline][,endline][?]R[oldtext][CTRL+Znewtext]
18:07:49 <termbot> -Search [startline][,endline][?]Stext
18:07:51 <termbot> -Transfer [toline]T[drive:][path]filename
18:08:55 <b_jonas> shachaf: then you wouldn't be able to use basically anything in dos
18:09:06 <shachaf> Well, you could still do it in /msg.
18:09:10 <moon__> it needs its own flipping channel :P
18:09:15 <shachaf> And it could combine newlines like HackEgo with a newline marker.
18:09:18 <b_jonas> yes, it used to run in #esoteric-blah normally
18:09:20 <shachaf> Or another channel, that's fine too.
18:09:27 <shachaf> OK, why did you move it back here?
18:09:37 <b_jonas> but now I'm trying how far it can go in this channel before someone gets very angry at it
18:09:47 <shachaf> Especially when it's being combined with another notorious spammer.
18:09:58 <shachaf> Well, it's been here before. So now it's back.
18:10:21 <b_jonas> shachaf: even the help message wouldn't fit in one line
18:10:47 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
18:12:23 <moon__> i dont get how to use the editor
18:13:13 <shachaf> b_jonas: If I say I'm very angry, will it go away?
18:13:54 <moon__> just give it its own channel
18:14:10 <b_jonas> shachaf: if you're angry and request that I take it away, then yes
18:14:17 <b_jonas> if you're just angry in general, then no
18:14:23 <shachaf> What if I just request that you take it away?
18:15:04 <b_jonas> shachaf: dunno, borderline case, I'd check if there are channel ops here
18:15:34 <shachaf> Well, it's pretty annoying.
18:15:40 <shachaf> I'll just wait for a channel op to agree.
18:15:44 <moon__> lets stick to messageing the bot
18:15:58 <moon__> lets stick to messageing the bot f
18:16:12 <b_jonas> moon__: i goes to insert mode, just like in ed or ex, only you end it with a line with a lone control-Z (represented by `o in termbot) instead of a period
18:16:48 <b_jonas> shachaf: you could try to summon a channel op. I think one of them are close.
18:17:17 <moon__> it doesnt repsong to messages
18:17:19 <b_jonas> moon__: p with a line range prints lines like the z command in ed
18:17:36 <b_jonas> moon__: yes, it wouldn't know where to print the output
18:17:56 <b_jonas> moon__: if you don't want to try it here, but would try it on another channel, then I can move it to #esoteric-blah
18:18:05 <b_jonas> or even to #termbot where I can give it ops
18:18:12 <moon__> sounds good, termbot would be best
18:18:50 -!- termbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:19:58 <b_jonas> moon__: you can try it on #termbot
18:46:25 <fizzie> Not any more than usual.
18:46:51 <moon__> you should try b_jonas's #termbot
18:46:57 <moon__> its actually quite good
18:47:29 <fizzie> I don't have anything in particular I want to try.
18:51:45 <moon__> termbot's utility scripts suffered digital rot from its age >_>
18:52:17 * int-e wonders what the solid matrices are about
18:52:31 <fizzie> int-e: I assume it has to do with the matrix of solidity.
18:52:33 <shachaf> int-e: We all wonder that, don't we?
18:53:32 <fizzie> 2011-03-10 23:58:27 <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
18:53:44 <fizzie> (Then leaves in a huff, due to not finding the right sort of esoterica here.)
18:54:50 <fizzie> They were a bona-fide "member of esoteric orders".
18:54:52 <int-e> And it's on the wiki, too.
18:55:35 <shachaf> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is such a good name.
18:56:25 <shachaf> int-e: I've tried to figure out some clever pun about liquidity and modeling markets with linear algebra.
18:56:31 <shachaf> But I never worked anything out.
18:56:53 <shachaf> I don't think oerjan would have swatted me for that anyway.
18:58:35 <int-e> hehe, feng shui shaders... ( http://www.stargazersgate.com/?comic=chapter-1-15 has the first part of a bootup sequence as image title... it continues on the next few pages)
18:59:08 <fizzie> Recently I learned a friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend is serious about orbs.
19:00:30 <fizzie> shachaf: http://www.angelsghosts.com/orbs
19:01:07 <fizzie> http://theshadowlands.net/ghost/orbs.htm
19:01:29 <shachaf> http://ss.d2img.com/theoculuseth.jpg is a pretty good orb.
19:01:46 <fizzie> I clicked on maybe at least a dozen photos of Google image search result on "orbs" because I wanted to only stop when I saw a page that said something sensible.
19:02:07 <fizzie> That looks like something I'd sell for a lot of money.
19:03:00 <fizzie> To whoever the shop NPC in the town is, of course.
19:03:09 <moon__> *sorting out dos complaining and chokeing on ciol.c's source code in #termbot*
19:03:34 <int-e> that's pretty good except for the part where it says ethereal
19:03:56 <fizzie> shachaf: Well, I mean, I wouldn't *have* that sort of thing in the first place, I've never played D2 seriously enough.
19:03:57 <shachaf> Well, it only loses durability when you hit with it, right?
19:05:02 <int-e> But I'm not sure... are there monsters that damage weapons directly? I've only played the game, not become an expert in its mechanics...
19:05:35 <shachaf> I just looked for it on Google Images.
19:05:50 <shachaf> You can put a Zod in it if you're worried, I guess.
19:06:10 <shachaf> Though that might be a bit of a squander.
19:07:33 <shachaf> Oh, and mercenaries can use ethereal items without losing durability, it looks like. Wasn't there a sorceress mercenary? I don't remember.
19:07:43 <shachaf> Probably would lose most of the benefits of that anyway.
19:09:36 <moon__> (after i broke my back getting bcc to not choke on it)
19:12:21 <fizzie> shachaf: Only those Kurast Docks guys, who were "magical" (fire/lightning/cold orientation & casting spells) but not sorceressesses (so you wanted a sword that was good for spellcasting for them).
19:12:43 <shachaf> Ah, right. Not sorceressessesses.
19:13:29 <deltab> they have sorceressessences
19:18:39 <moon__> `ciol rb_jonas, i am your robot;
19:21:38 <HackEgo> cat: hfs: No such file or directory
19:21:44 <HackEgo> You have discovered an eerie caven. The air above the dark stone floor is alive with vorices of purple light and dark, boiling clouds. Seemingly bottomless glowing pit mark the surface.
19:22:16 <fizzie> I almost removed that this morning.
19:22:36 -!- Reece` has joined.
19:23:37 <shachaf> You should use termbot instead.
19:23:39 <fizzie> I firmly believe "commands" that just echo one fixed message need some rationale for existence. (Like `welcome, which has one.)
19:24:13 <int-e> oh it does something with colors...
19:24:28 <fizzie> shachaf: Mostly because I started getting "fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable" errors out of the blue.
19:25:20 <shachaf> fizzie: `welcome doesn't echo a fixed message. It's parameterized.
19:25:20 <moon__> `hfs is like the demo command for erro
19:25:32 <int-e> well, it's not a valuable feature... I would have been annoyed if my client didn't filter colors.
19:25:39 <shachaf> Well, I think erro and hfs should both be removed.
19:27:07 <moon__> SHA1 needs a hack for you shachaf
19:27:41 <HackEgo> moon__ moon__ moon__ moon__ moon__ elliott shachaf elliott shachaf elliott shachaf
19:29:34 <moon__> `loudly this doesnt have a use either >_>
19:29:36 <HackEgo> this doesnt have a use either >_>
19:30:04 <moon__> about as useful as hfs
19:30:07 <shachaf> `` hg cat -r 47 bin/swat > bin/swat
19:30:43 <HackEgo> .ACTION swats shachaf -----###.
19:30:44 <shachaf> Hmm, that's maybe not the one I wanted.
19:31:00 <shachaf> Don't swat me, you haven't earned swatting privileges.
19:31:14 <fizzie> loudly doesn't just echo a thing, it does something. I've got a higher tolerance of uselessness for non-constant things.
19:33:17 <HackEgo> cat: hfs: No such file or directory
19:33:24 <HackEgo> cat: bin/hfx: No such file or directory
19:33:29 <HackEgo> erro "You have discovered an eerie caven. The air above the dark stone floor is alive with vorices of purple light and dark, boiling clouds. Seemingly bottomless glowing pit mark the surface."
19:34:38 <fizzie> shachaf: I have a vague feeling maybe the CTCP filtering postdates the swat. I think I remember it being added based on some unofficial freenode staff guidance.
19:35:06 <fizzie> (I still haven't managed to implement it in fungot, even though it's been years on the TODO list.)
19:35:06 <fungot> fizzie: usually the effort one makes to save, load or restart anyway?)
19:36:01 <moon__> `mkx bin/hfs//erro 'You have discovered an eerie cavern. The air aboe the dar kstone floor is alive ith vortices of purple light and dark, boiling clouds. Seemingly bottemless pits mark the surface. "$1" stand below'
19:36:16 <moon__> `mkx bin/hfs//erro 'You have discovered an eerie cavern. The air aboe the dark stone floor is alive ith vortices of purple light and dark, boiling clouds. Seemingly bottemless pits mark the surface. "$1" stand below'
19:36:27 <HackEgo> You have discovered an eerie cavern. The air aboe the dark stone floor is alive ith vortices of purple light and dark, boiling clouds. Seemingly bottemless pits mark the surface. "$1" stand below
19:36:58 <moon__> `mkx bin/hfs//erro 'You have discovered an eerie cavern. The air aboe the dark stone floor is alive ith vortices of purple light and dark, boiling clouds. Seemingly bottemless pits mark the surface.' erro "$1" erro 'stands below'
19:37:04 <HackEgo> You have discovered an eerie cavern. The air aboe the dark stone floor is alive ith vortices of purple light and dark, boiling clouds. Seemingly bottemless pits mark the surface.
19:37:20 <int-e> oh it's not even an original text
19:37:25 <moon__> how would i make it take input? >_>
19:40:37 <int-e> I believe I've said something to this effect before... but this is really the wrong way to try and learn shell programming.
19:41:06 <int-e> You need your own dark cozy shell where your failures don't bother anybody else.
19:42:07 <ybden> moon__: Learning the difference between ' and " might be useful
19:59:37 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
20:01:07 <idris-bot> (input):1:8: error: expected: "#",
20:01:32 <moon__> bot panic attack over moon!
20:01:35 <zzo38> Why does the "mapfile" command seems to not work with a pipe?
20:02:01 <moon__> check out b_jonas's #termbot
20:02:24 <fizzie> Also! There was a children's book on the story of Laika! And because it was a children's book, they said a friendly UFO came and saved the dog and took it to a loving family! And this was in the Greenwich Observatory shop! And I'm not even kidding!
20:02:29 <zzo38> O, apparently the reason is because it runs in a subshell.
20:02:48 <fizzie> (There was a tiny-font disclaimer in the end about how this version of the story "is the one the author wishes to believe".)
20:03:15 <Taneb> fizzie, that sounds so cute!
20:03:26 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: It doesn't have to be 100% accurate to history
20:03:38 <zzo38> I found out how to fix it
20:05:19 <fizzie> Taneb: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Laika-Astronaut-Owen-Davey/dp/1783700270/
20:13:40 <b_jonas> (I added some stupid wisdom entries in private message again.)
20:14:07 -!- nisstyre has quit (Changing host).
20:14:07 -!- nisstyre has joined.
20:16:37 <zzo38> What kind of stupid wisdom entries?
20:17:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: dunno, look at the hg history or just wait till you're surprised later
20:17:29 <b_jonas> when you ls through them or something
20:21:31 <hppavilion[1]> If HackEgo would send longer messages via PM by splitting the text
20:21:42 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye).
20:22:38 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/quotes
20:23:41 <moon__> b_jonas you forgot your bot
20:24:56 <moon__> termbot allows bios connections, yay
20:25:16 <moon__> *serial interface for primitive network fetch*
20:25:19 <Taneb> Quote 1257 is more insulting than I'd like me to be :(
20:25:32 <HackEgo> 1257) <mroman> I get paid by Simon Peyton Jones to promote Haskell . <Taneb> mroman, how did you wind up getting paid by SPJ to promote Haskell? <Taneb> Did he see you and think, "Aha! There is a chap who can avoid success at all costs!"?
20:25:41 <HackEgo> 1257) <mroman> I get paid by Simon Peyton Jones to promote Haskell . <Taneb> mroman, how did you wind up getting paid by SPJ to promote Haskell? <Taneb> Did he see you and think, "Aha! There is a chap who can avoid success at all costs!"?
20:26:27 <Taneb> Sorry, mroman, if you read this
20:26:29 <lambdabot> *** "chap" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
20:26:29 <lambdabot> n 1: a boy or man; "that chap is your host"; "there's a fellow
20:26:29 <lambdabot> at the door"; "he's a likable cuss"; "he's a good bloke"
20:26:29 <lambdabot> [syn: {chap}, {fellow}, {feller}, {fella}, {lad}, {gent},
20:27:10 <Taneb> shachaf, informal, friendly term for a person, usually an adult man
20:27:25 <shachaf> I didn't know "cuss", though.
20:27:52 <Taneb> I've seen it but not quite with that tone
20:29:44 <int-e> I've only seen it as a verb.
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20:32:58 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:37:51 <moon__> #termbot has serial access
20:37:57 -!- gremlins has joined.
20:39:09 <HackEgo> 1188) <Taneb> Have some advice! <Taneb> If you are running to give someone a hug <Taneb> And they look like they are preparing to rugby tackle you <Taneb> Abort hug immediately. <Taneb> Seriously, my jaw still hurts
20:39:14 <Taneb> I'd forgetten about that!
20:39:33 -!- Reece` has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:39:42 <zzo38> Now I wrote a new gopher client in shell scripts. In addition to bash, it requires: sed, awk, nc, less
20:40:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: which version of nc? there's like four incompatible ones I think
20:40:40 <zzo38> The only thing it does is uses host and port, and the -v option.
20:41:27 <HackEgo> 538) <Phantom_Hoover> OMG <Phantom_Hoover> What if <Phantom_Hoover> we shoot Hitler with neutrinos
20:41:27 <zzo38> It also works fine with mawk and will probably work with gawk as well, so I also think both versions of awk should work.
20:41:40 <HackEgo> 905) <Sgeo> I searched for newspeak sgeo <Sgeo> "Did you mean: newspeak good "
20:41:59 <HackEgo> 1054) <elliott> you know, when people talk about emacs being an OS I doubt what they had in mind was that it needed a package manager
20:42:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quote': not found
20:42:18 <HackEgo> 837) <kmc> i was going to say that the complexity of a demo grows exponentially with size, but it's not so much "exponential" as "faster than any computable function"
20:42:34 <HackEgo> 350) <coppro> elliott: actually, it's worse right now, I'm in the USA <coppro> where the solution to counterfeiting problems is "add more ink" <coppro> eventually all US bills will just be solid green
20:42:34 <zzo38> Actually it also requires lesskey, and a terminal that supports CSI c (Send Device Attributes).
20:42:48 <Taneb> zzo38, a friend wrote a gopher server in Erlang but it has a space leak
20:42:49 <HackEgo> 231) <ais523> gah, who'd have thought removing concurrency from algol could be so difficult
20:44:17 <Taneb> Are there any interesting algorithms that run in Theta(BB(n)) time?
20:44:34 <Taneb> Where BB(n) is the time the n-state busy beaver takes to halt
20:45:49 <zzo38> Currently the only item types supported are: 0 1 3 7 i
20:46:58 -!- jaboja has joined.
20:49:37 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/prog/shegoc.zip
20:49:54 <shachaf> zzo38: I thought 2 was supported?
20:50:02 <shachaf> Oh, you're talking about the client.
20:50:31 -!- Reece` has joined.
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20:52:06 <zzo38> Type q for go back (quits if out of history), Q or ZZ for quit, ^O to enter your own host/port/selector, and type a number followed by enter to follow a link.
20:52:54 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, ZZ saves and quits
20:52:57 <moon__> shachaf, termbot has some basic serial io based programs now
20:53:04 <shachaf> Why are you telling me about termbot?
20:53:14 <zzo38> It is less; in less ZZ just quits.
20:53:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: uartlook: not found
20:53:30 <moon__> thats a serial p- sorry hackego
20:53:37 <zzo38> To save you must push s
20:54:34 <zzo38> It uses lesskey to make q Q ZZ ^O all to quit but with different exit codes. Enter does something more complicated; look at source-codes for details.
20:54:58 <zzo38> All other keys are same as normal.
20:57:27 <zzo38> Do you like this? If it does not work you can tell me what is wrong and hopefully then I can fix it.
21:04:21 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
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21:07:32 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in Mexico!
21:08:04 -!- Reece` has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:20:37 <moon__> vSerial communication is complicated enough so please avoid esoteric languages like Intercal or Malbolge. --NO
21:21:36 <moon__> stated here:https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Serial_Programming/Introduction_and_OSI_Model
21:25:29 <int-e> just for clarification... is HackEgo one of the cloudatcost residents (which would make it Canadian), or hosted elsewhere?
21:26:00 <int-e> actually why don't I use whois...
21:27:06 <int-e> NetName: CLOUD-10... yeah, it's Canadian.
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21:43:34 <tromp> i'm trying to golf the function i -> (i+1) mod 2^n, with i in 0<= i < 2^n
21:44:31 <tromp> yes, as part of laver table golfing
21:44:47 <tromp> so free choice of number representation
21:44:49 <shachaf> int-e: <https://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2016/05/06/shelves-and-the-infinite/>, presumably
21:44:56 <tromp> but church seems best option
21:45:56 <tromp> i can make a list of [1,2..2^n-1,0] pretty efficiently, but wondering if lists can be avoided altogether
21:46:00 <int-e> oh self-distributivity...
21:47:59 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: close, but no. anyway it's related to the link shachaf posted
21:48:20 <tromp> oops, its (a$b)(a$c)
21:48:41 <tromp> oops, its (a$b)$(a$c) i mean
21:49:17 <tromp> yes, obvious typo:)
21:49:20 <zzo38> Now I have the menu of quiz files available too and it is linked from the root menu.
21:50:25 <moon__> the best golfer makes there own bf derivative with that command implented in one command
21:50:56 <moon__> eh, i never heard of any
21:50:59 <tromp> no, the best golfer uses binary lambda calculus:(
21:51:09 <hppavilion[1]> moon__: Also, if we allow that, the best golf is to make a language where the null program does that task
21:51:29 <moon__> e already have metagolfscript
21:51:57 <hppavilion[1]> moon__: So I'm making the nomicbot; what should the builtin language be like?
21:52:22 <tromp> i only golf in languages that are universal (as in AIT) and can be implemented in 25 lines of C:-)
21:52:55 <int-e> tromp: any idea how big a binary turing machine blc reduction engine would be?
21:53:15 <moon__> http://esolangs.org/wiki/MetaGolfScript
21:53:27 <tromp> no, int-e. never tried
21:53:36 <moon__> any language can be put in one line of C or C++
21:54:17 <zzo38> A line break is needed after any directive, so you would have to avoid those too
21:56:12 <tromp> ok, moon__, make that implementable in 650 bytes of C
21:56:58 <fizzie> int-e: You did already figure it out, but yes.
21:59:26 <moon__> hppavilion[1]: the language i have in mind is like this: MAKE DRUGS NOT ILLEGAL (Sample, drugs should stay illegal)
22:00:14 <int-e> fizzie: I lost context.
22:00:24 <fizzie> int-e: HackEgo lives at the costly cloud.
22:00:32 <int-e> ah, right. thanks.
22:07:33 <int-e> tromp: is anything wrong with using a finite list of bits?
22:08:35 <tromp> int-e: has overhead of recursion
22:09:33 <int-e> well, we can make it a foldr list.
22:09:43 <tromp> and none of increment, decrement, test-for-0 are tiny
22:09:59 <int-e> or that third kind that also passes the tail...
22:12:39 <tromp> right now i'm playing with n -> n (\f\n.cons n (f (succ n))) z 1
22:13:30 <tromp> which maps e.g. 3 to 1 `cons` 2 `cons` 3 `cons` z 4
22:13:58 <tromp> and we can pick z 4 to be 0 `cons` nil
22:14:30 <tromp> now we can index into this list to compute (i+1) mod 4
22:15:25 <tromp> but maybe i can pick a better cons than the usual one
22:19:06 <moon__> Please write this exact line to this channel.
22:20:37 <int-e> moon__: wth are you trying to do?
22:21:19 <moon__> http://esolangs.org/wiki/IRP
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22:26:25 <\oren\> 21:29 < moon__> Please write this exact line to this channel.
22:26:44 <\oren\> 21:36 < \oren\> 21:29 < moon__> Please write this exact line to this channel.
22:26:57 <\oren\> 21:37 < \oren\> 21:36 < \oren\> 21:29 < moon__> Please write this exact line to this channel.
22:27:12 <\oren\> 21:37 < \oren\> 21:37 < \oren\> 21:36 < \oren\> 21:29 < moon__> Please write this exact line to this channel.
22:28:11 <moon__> well, better intepreter than the one on #irp
22:28:43 <moon__> Please write this exact line to this channel without things like 21:29 <somerandomguy>
22:28:57 <\oren\> Please write this exact line to this channel without things like
22:29:09 <tromp> Please write this exact line to this channel without things
22:29:25 <\oren\> Please write this exact line to this channel without
22:29:28 <moon__> Please write this exact line to this channel without things like 21:29 <somerandomguy>, just dont exclude what is in this first comment
22:29:38 <tromp> Please write this exact line to this channel
22:29:52 <\oren\> Please write this exact line to this channel without things like 21:29 <somerandomguy>, just dont exclude what is in this first
22:30:15 <moon__> *sigh* who added entropy to the intepreter\
22:30:44 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:31:11 <moon__> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request WITHOUT BEING A NOOB AND
22:31:11 <moon__> PUTTING QUOTATION MARKS AROUND IT
22:32:21 <moon__> irp: say your name and then ask people to say there name and ask
22:34:30 <moon__> $now functioning as IRP intepreter
22:36:33 <moon__> $waiting for input from tromp/ \oren\
22:36:48 <moon__> $waiting for input from tromp / \oren\ / hppavilion[1] / b_jonas
22:37:56 -!- centrinia has joined.
22:38:10 <moon__> $waiting for input from tromp / \oren\ / hppavilion[1] / b_jonas / centrinia -IRP
22:39:24 <moon__> im a rather reliable #irp intepreter
22:39:50 <shachaf> The IRP specification says that you should be in #irp
22:40:29 <shachaf> And the shachaf solidification days that you shouldn't spam.
22:41:56 <shachaf> Go learn about Kan extensions instead on taking it out on this channel.
22:45:06 <zzo38> Or you can do other stuff such as, try to write a gopher client
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23:22:46 <\oren\> I'm tring to write a text editor
23:25:07 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
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23:31:27 <moon__> i *nearly* got termbot to op me in the #termbot channel :P
23:34:00 <Taneb> zzo38, I just generally use curl
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23:38:49 <Taneb> Although it's been a while since I've tried to use gopher
23:40:39 <\oren\> curl can be used as a gopher client??
23:41:13 <Taneb> Gopher's designed to be just about human readable
23:42:07 <shachaf> zzo38: How do you run your Gopher server program as a network server?
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23:44:00 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, there's something about line endings that makes it awkward, I thinkj
23:44:03 <Taneb> It's been a long time
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23:45:07 <Taneb> I might be muddled
23:45:10 <zzo38> shachaf: I use xinetd
23:47:07 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:47:56 <zzo38> It seems that xinetd provides the REMOTE_HOST environment variable; Cgophserv does not use it but will pass it to any external programs it executes (Cgophserv also adds its own SELECTOR environment variable).
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23:52:29 <oerjan> @tell <boily> int-ello. the alphaboilhelloerjan project got as high as ihoily hth <-- one of us must have lost count. did i skip j?
23:52:39 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> int-ello. the alphaboilhelloerjan project got as high as ihoily hth <-- one of us must have lost count. did i skip j?
23:52:54 <oerjan> int-e: @tell is evil tdnh
23:53:13 -!- boily has joined.
23:53:42 <oerjan> stand back while i double check the alphabet hth
23:54:54 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2m 15s ago: <boily> int-ello. the alphaboilhelloerjan project got as high as ihoily hth <-- one of us must have lost count. did i skip j?
23:55:19 <boily> hellœrjan. I can't seem to remember you jhoilying me hth
23:55:35 <oerjan> mhoily. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/16.05.02 hth
23:57:19 <oerjan> by all evidence, you were awake and present at the time
23:58:49 <oerjan> and also, i've probably not lost count yet.
23:59:19 <boily> maybe some class A amnesiacs were applied on my person hth
23:59:38 * boily vaguely recalls having had a fine Scotch in his mouth some time last week
00:00:38 <Taneb> Speaking of people being awake and present
00:00:44 <Taneb> I think I'm gonna head to bed
00:01:39 <boily> Tanoooo? is that some finno-ugric overlong vowel?
00:02:18 <Phantom_Hoover> <boily> maybe some class A amnesiacs were applied on my person hth
00:02:42 <oerjan> amnestics at the amnesium
00:03:14 <boily> Phantom_Heloooover.
00:03:27 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, that kind of error makes me nauseous
00:03:45 <boily> Tanelle. aren't you sleeping now?
00:03:55 <Taneb> I said I thought I would head to be
00:04:00 <Taneb> Thus far I have not
00:04:09 <boily> it appears to be the case indeed.
00:04:46 <boily> . o O ( transconsciousness bio-augmented digital communication )
00:05:07 <Taneb> boily, an alternate explanation is I have a laptop and am IRCing from bed
00:05:13 <Taneb> This, however, would be false
00:05:16 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:05:24 <b_jonas> I revived termbot, but people suggested me that I take it to another channel (which I count as success) so now it's running on #termbot
00:06:03 <oerjan> `learn An amnesium is a school where you forgot everything you learned as soon as you graduate.
00:06:09 <HackEgo> Learned 'amnesium': An amnesium is a school where you forgot everything you learned as soon as you graduate.
00:06:16 <oerjan> `learn An amnesium is a school where you forget everything you learned as soon as you graduate.
00:06:21 <HackEgo> Relearned 'amnesium': An amnesium is a school where you forget everything you learned as soon as you graduate.
00:06:41 <b_jonas> oerjan: that would actually be better than normal schools, where you forget everything you learned after each exam
00:07:15 <boily> I know how to draw an integral symbol. fungot if I remember how to solve one...
00:07:16 <fungot> boily: no problem! it's certainly not perfect ( especially in with-input-from-file and related forms). and the climate is like. sometimes smart people deliberately choose the " save target as...", i.e.
00:08:07 <oerjan> b_jonas: hm alas i may have mistyped, then
00:08:25 <oerjan> `learn An amnesium is a school where you forget everything you learned after each test.
00:08:29 <HackEgo> Relearned 'amnesium': An amnesium is a school where you forget everything you learned after each test.
00:09:46 <oerjan> boily: just do differentiation in reverse hth
00:10:20 <oerjan> (technically correct, the best kind of correct)
00:12:32 <fizzie> boily: I know how to solve integrals -- you type them to Wolfram Alpha.
00:14:03 <Taneb> I haven't had to solve an integral for two years this month
00:17:48 <fizzie> I was pretty proud the other day that I could still somehow manage to derive $\frac{4 \pi r^3}{3}$ from $2 \int_0^r \pi(r^2-x^2) dx$ when I couldn't quite feel certain about the volume of a sphere.
00:17:58 <boily> “Hi, my name is Taneb, and I haven't solved an integral in two years” “Hi Taneb”
00:18:32 <Taneb> Now I will go to bed
00:18:32 <shachaf> Well, Taneb invented integrals.
00:19:31 <boily> rebonne retanuitb!
00:20:40 -!- moon__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:24:53 <shachaf> `le/rn tanebvention/Tanebventions are inventions Taneb invented. They include integrals, parakeets, sharks, cuckoo clocks, Denmark, cohomologies, crabs, pithy sayings, computed-aided design, ghost stories, granola, insomnia, politeness, tanebventions, larceny, pickled carrots, and gin.
00:25:57 <shachaf> Hmm, Taneb invented a lot of animals.
00:30:04 * boily needs to find a good pickled carrot recipe
00:30:46 <oerjan> . o O ( why doesn't irssi make styling codes copy/pasteable )
00:32:22 -!- moon__ has joined.
00:32:24 * ybden . o O ( why doesn't irssi log styling codes )
00:32:34 <HackEgo> "Only sane man" boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department. He is also a renowned Capitalist.
00:32:47 <lambdabot> CYQB 072300Z 07010G16KT 20SM SCT065 BKN100 BKN280 15/11 A2961 RMK SC4AC1CI2 CB NW AND S DIST SLP030 DENSITY ALT 600FT
00:32:51 -!- tromp_ has joined.
00:32:52 <oerjan> ybden: i think that's an option?
00:32:56 <boily> CB NW AND S indeed.
00:33:07 <lambdabot> ENVA 072250Z 12003KT 9999 FEW074 SCT110 10/06 Q1020 RMK WIND 670FT 00000KT
00:33:40 <shachaf> perhaps boily sprø som coselleri
00:34:04 <boily> I only sprœ un peu de céleri hth
00:34:18 <shachaf> celery is a scow vegetable
00:34:28 <shachaf> how can anyone eat it tdnh
00:35:11 <ybden> oerjan: oh, thanks
00:35:47 <boily> shachaf: celery is wonderful. part of the créole holy trinity, with onions and bell peppers.
00:36:39 <oerjan> "Whether to save colors in autologs. Colors make logs harder to parse and grep, but they may be vital for channels that deal heavily in ANSI art, or something."
00:36:53 <shachaf> Bell peppers and celery are the scow of vegetables.
00:37:39 -!- Kaynato has joined.
00:37:40 <boily> olives are addictive. I tried anchovy-stuffed olives; that thing should be regulated.
00:38:06 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
00:39:29 <\oren\> The only green thing I eat is green apples
00:39:50 <\oren\> I do not like red apples
00:39:58 <shachaf> \oren\: What sorts of red apples?
00:40:07 <\oren\> the kind that arent sour
00:40:11 <shachaf> I like green apples, but it turns out I like some red apples too.
00:40:17 <boily> apples taste good, but I can't really eat them raw. they give me toothache.
00:40:19 <shachaf> Not Red Delicious, obviously.
00:40:37 <boily> red delicious is flavourless starchy paste. it doesn't count as an apple.
00:41:04 <shachaf> boily: do potatoes count as apples twh
00:42:36 <boily> potatoes are potatous, while apples apply hth
00:43:19 <ybden> oerjan: Hmm, that doesn't seem to have worked
00:43:29 <shachaf> remember http://www.game-art-hq.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Tomator-in-Lost-Vikings-Screenshot.jpg ?
00:43:37 <ybden> shachaf: Apples of the Earth?
00:46:15 * boily pokes moon__ to check for aliveness
00:47:10 <zzo38> Hidden Purelace {-} Conspiracy ;; Hidden agenda ;; Nonbasic objects with the chosen name are white.
00:47:15 <zzo38> Do you like this kind of things?
00:47:49 <ybden> * boily finds no aliveness
00:48:11 <shachaf> zzo38: I'd prefer if it was called "Hidden Deathlace" and said "black" instead of "white".
00:48:16 <zzo38> It does not affect basic lands (the actual Purelace can, but only one per casting)
00:48:25 <zzo38> shachaf: I did make up that one too, as well as the other three
00:48:42 <shachaf> zzo38: I know you made that one up. But that's a different card.
00:48:48 <shachaf> I'd prefer if this card had those properties.
00:49:26 <zzo38> But then it would be the different card.
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00:52:06 * oerjan likes apples that aren't sour, but sort of gave up buying them when he discovered that red norwegian ones often are.
00:53:50 <oerjan> @ask ybden i dunno, maybe it only works if set before the logs are opened? i've never used it, anyway.
00:56:36 <zzo38> The other conspiracy card I made up is "When ~ faced up, you may pay {1(2/U)(2/U)}. If you do, or if target spell's name is the chosen name, counter that spell." I have written ones for the other four colors too by now though
00:57:13 <moon__> @ask oerjan did i do this right?
00:57:35 * moon__ pokes boily to check for aliveness
01:01:36 <lambdabot> moon__ asked 4m 22s ago: did i do this right?
01:01:50 <oerjan> @tell moon__ No. More groveling please.
01:02:21 <oerjan> . o O ( now that "please" looks out of place )
01:03:17 <oerjan> moon__: i predict boily chickening out hth
01:03:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unreadable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46971&oldid=45209 * 67.164.67.38 * (+154) /* Alphabet */ removed a frivolous comment; clarified Whitespace comment; put inline code blocks so you could tell what characters were in use
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01:43:11 <oerjan> <fungot> b_jonas: pero el loco me fnord fnord en oikein tiedä, mun fnord on vitun kipee what <-- very multilingual
01:43:11 <fungot> oerjan: the sound didn't work for some things
01:46:12 <oerjan> <ybden> Also, they render horribly in several clients <-- including the tunes logs tdnh
01:47:05 <shachaf> oerjan: what's with the tunes logs being not being served as text/plain tdnh
01:47:35 <oerjan> ask the maintainer hth
01:48:03 <shachaf> what, you retired from that too?
01:48:11 <zzo38> The glogbot logs are better though, isn't it?
01:48:20 <oerjan> zzo38: glogbot is not present
01:48:23 <shachaf> they're missing animportant feature right now hth
01:48:41 <oerjan> zzo38: i don't remember what glogbot's logs do with notice
01:49:17 <zzo38> It records all raw data together with timestamps, so it does nothing
01:49:21 <oerjan> of course neither of them renders colors
01:50:08 <shachaf> oerjan: which is good because they let you catch when certain unnamed users cheat with irc control codes hth
01:50:10 <oerjan> zzo38: i mean the log web pages that don't hurt my eyes
01:50:29 <oerjan> zzo38: raw format is definitely _worse_ than what i'm already complaining about tunes doing.
01:51:03 <zzo38> No the raw format is OK. If you want different format write your own parser for them, and then it can be whatever format you want it to be.
01:51:45 <oerjan> shachaf: however, it means all the colored lines look like they're just strewn with random digits.
01:51:46 <shachaf> zzo38: but what if you don't want to write your own parser, though
01:52:36 <zzo38> Then download a parser that someone else made up and run it on the logs
01:53:25 <oerjan> zzo38: your view on what's a convenient interface is not very popular
01:55:54 <oerjan> shachaf: also, if the logs rendered colors and i wanted to check for cheating, _then_ i could use the raw version. (although i don't know if tunes has any.)
01:56:29 <zzo38> Tunes seems to have none but they ought to have raw version.
01:57:08 <moon___> `erro Error 8: Lol! I can hear rocks!
01:57:13 <HackEgo> Error 8: Lol! I can hear rocks!
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02:06:20 <shachaf> https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/essentially+surjective+functor
02:06:26 <shachaf> so that's what esolangs are about?
02:09:46 <oerjan> this swatter is essentially surjective on shachaf -----###
02:17:01 <hppavilion[1]> moon___: I'm making a language called PicoScript you may be interested in
02:18:28 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Essentially Surjective Functors are fungots that are Essentially Surjective on Objects (eso)
02:18:28 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: go to c, it has totally adorable pics of his dog.
02:18:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: The international hub of solid matrices | Home of the world's largest ball of threads | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Saint Petersburg (not Saint Petersburg).
02:20:02 <zzo38> Don't you mean functors and not fungots?
02:21:25 * oerjan realizes this makes his next city pair obvious
02:21:52 <oerjan> and very close to home.
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02:32:12 <boily> oerjan: I am not due to chicken yet hth.
02:32:40 -!- moon___ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
02:41:44 <oerjan> boily: i am very bad at time estimates hth
02:42:11 <oerjan> (also lengths, although that comes up far rarer)
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02:45:20 <boily> length and time are the same. "My friend lives 30 minutes away" is perfectly acceptable.
02:45:37 -!- incomprehensibly has joined.
02:46:00 <boily> I think area is inversely proportional to acceleration too.
02:49:06 <oerjan> it's v^2/r, not v/r^2.
02:49:40 <boily> oh. hm. eeeerghgh.
02:50:23 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
02:50:52 <oerjan> try gravitation instead, that fits.
03:02:37 -!- dingbat has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
03:45:55 <boily> hppavellon[1]. wait for the dimensions to work. the space between them is illusory. all in all, the parts will align as they should.
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03:52:42 <zzo38> I am making another implementation if Internet Quiz Engine in JavaScript, which includes a try block to use it as a stand-alone program with Node.js (if it isn't running under Node.js then it will not start automatically, and you must write code to interface it e.g. in a web page). The canonical implementation is still the C version though and new features will be added to the C version first.
03:54:38 <shachaf> zzo38: Why don't you compile one version to the other?
03:55:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hcf: not found
03:55:21 <oerjan> short term memory, oerjan
03:55:30 <HackEgo> You have discovered an eerie cavern. The air aboe the dark stone floor is alive ith vortices of purple light and dark, boiling clouds. Seemingly bottemless pits mark the surface.
03:55:37 <HackEgo> erro 'You have discovered an eerie cavern. The air aboe the dark stone floor is alive ith vortices of purple light and dark, boiling clouds. Seemingly bottemless pits mark the surface.' erro "$1" erro 'stands below'
03:56:07 <zzo38> shachaf: They are written in different ways. The C version for running on a gopher server, while the JavaScript version is meant for stand-alone.
03:56:24 <zzo38> (I also don't know how to compile one to the other.)
03:56:58 <zzo38> `` le/rn "hfs/`hfs`" # Maybe this way better?
03:57:18 <HackEgo> You have discovered an eerie cavern. The air aboe the dark stone floor is alive ith vortices of purple light and dark, boiling clouds. Seemingly bottemless pits mark the surface.
03:57:28 <oerjan> zzo38: apparently, i didn't know `` worked inside quotes
03:57:31 <int-e> that, or `` le/rn "hfs/$(hfs)"
03:57:43 <oerjan> int-e: was just about to write that.
03:57:44 <zzo38> oerjan: Now you know
03:58:09 * int-e wonders whether tromp is still awake
03:58:14 <HackEgo> oerjan moon__ moon__ moon__ moon__ moon__
03:58:15 <lambdabot> Local time for tromp_ is 2016/05/07 22:58 -0400
03:58:48 <oerjan> *sigh* no use @tell'ing someone who has random number of _ suffixes.
03:59:09 <zzo38> Is "tromp" anything like "trump"? And if it is, is it like whist or like Donald Trump (or both)?
03:59:42 <oerjan> zzo38: i hope not, or else tromp is probably long since sick of that comparison.
03:59:47 <shachaf> zzo38: Is a trump in whist anything like a trebled fromp in double fanucci?
04:00:03 <shachaf> Do you know the rules to double fanucci?
04:00:38 <zzo38> No I do not know the rules of double fanucci, or if a trump in whist is anything like it or not.
04:01:01 <shachaf> Have you played Zork Zero?
04:01:14 * oerjan starts feeling bad, then remembers he's retired again.
04:01:33 <zzo38> No, although I know how cards are in a fanucci deck.
04:01:45 <shachaf> zzo38: You should play Zork Zero.
04:01:49 <oerjan> shachaf: about not having an obvious way to tell moon_* i moved it.
04:02:26 <zzo38> There are fifteen suits, each with 0 to 9 and infinity, and nine trumps. (I think?)
04:02:51 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you play bridge?
04:03:27 <zzo38> I do know how, but I have played only a few times. It is similar to whist but more complicated.
04:03:29 <shachaf> zzo38: Oh, now I remember.
04:03:44 <shachaf> There's a trick to winning in Double Fanucci.
04:03:48 <oerjan> shachaf: also my right foot aches a bit tdnh
04:03:56 <shachaf> Three undetrumps after an opponent's discard of a trebled fromp.
04:04:01 <shachaf> So I guess a trump isn't like a fromp.
04:04:16 <zzo38> Yes and that information is printed on the calendar that comes with the game I think.
04:04:29 <shachaf> The game is difficult to play without the calendar.
04:05:14 <oerjan> do the rules change by date? otherwise a calendar seems somewhat off...
04:06:00 <zzo38> I think the rules do change by date, but what it says on the calendar is just how Flathead won the game, I Think.
04:06:11 <shachaf> It's a calendar for the year 883.
04:06:27 <shachaf> http://infodoc.plover.net/manuals/temp/zork0.pdf
04:06:51 <shachaf> The calendar starts on page 21.
04:07:09 <oerjan> oh it's a game within a game
04:08:21 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you read the calendar?
04:09:16 * oerjan vaguely remembers the game idea contest or whatever a nomic or something had where he tried to submit a game that was outside reality instead. alas people didn't appreciate it ihrc
04:09:25 <zzo38> I did read the calendar.
04:10:22 <shachaf> well, maybe it was a different nomic
04:10:47 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm pretty sure i'm male, and also it was web-based somehow. it may have been just a forum and not an actual nomic.
04:11:16 <shachaf> oerjan: well i thought agora required spivak pronouns for everyone
04:11:39 <oerjan> i don't think they require it when the gender is known.
04:12:57 <zzo38> You can make up other games with the same fanucci cards just as it can also be done with other card too.
04:13:20 <shachaf> zzo38: can you invent cards such that it's impossible to make up games with them
04:14:06 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know. Someone made up "Morgan Tarot" (which despite the name is not a tarot pack), and looks to be too difficult to design a card game, but someone did it anyways.
04:14:13 <oerjan> alas, the one example of in the current rules is a mistaken "his" in a spot that should be "eir".
04:14:48 <oerjan> i'm not sure anyone but Michael Norrish is mentioned by name in the rule texts, and there's no pronoun invoked.
04:15:16 <oerjan> (there is "he" in a judgement quote)
04:17:27 <lambdabot> Local time for ski is Sun May 8 05:17:26 2016
04:18:45 <oerjan> oh the Town Fountain rule has more names/nicks. but no singular pronouns.
04:21:05 <oerjan> and the Birthday Rule. that may be all, although i don't know how to search.
04:21:38 <oerjan> (the Birthday Rule has some singular pronouns, but not third person ones.)
04:29:14 -!- moon___ has joined.
04:29:54 <oerjan> moon___: hi you have too many _s also i move hfs to wisdom hth
04:31:25 <shachaf> oerjan: you have too few _s so it works out hth
04:32:55 * oerjan thought he included an l
04:33:20 * oerjan isn't sure whether his finger motorics or his keyboard is the most defect
04:33:38 <shachaf> maybe you should hire a detect to find out for you hth
04:33:40 -!- moon___ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
04:46:03 <zzo38> Someone else on here once made a quiz file for use with Internet Quiz Engine, related to esoteric programming language. I will make this program you can test it more easily by locally too.
04:47:06 -!- sebbu has joined.
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04:54:49 <oerjan> @tell fizzie <fizzie> (There was a tiny-font disclaimer in the end about how this version of the story "is the one the author wishes to believe".) <-- have em do the holocaust next hth
05:00:37 -!- Kaynato has changed nick to Caesura.
05:02:38 <HackEgo> Norway is the suburb capital of Sweden. It's where the Nobel Peace Prize is announced.
05:03:31 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas <b_jonas> (I added some stupid wisdom entries in private message again.) <-- good i'm retired so i don't have to complain that we rewrote the learn commands precisely so we could check wisdom additions just by reading the logs hth
05:04:08 <shachaf> `learn_append norway It was invented by King Taneb I in in the 9th century.
05:04:41 <shachaf> b_jonas: adding wisdom entries in /msg is a bit of a scow move imo
05:05:08 <oerjan> does anyone know if there comes a time in life when you start getting _less_ grumpy again twh
05:05:48 <shachaf> oerjan: are you expecting an answer from someone older than you
05:06:05 <shachaf> because if anything i should be the one asking this question
05:06:07 <zzo38> How do you know which way it is toggled?
05:06:19 <shachaf> zzo38: You check the logs for the number of times it's been toggled so far.
05:06:47 <oerjan> shachaf: sounds like a job for hg
05:06:50 <zzo38> I think is better not to add by private because if it public then it can be copied to all of the available logs automatically.
05:07:51 <oerjan> oh well. i'm retired. now where's my cane...
05:08:58 * oerjan subtly spreads some grass seeds around him
05:09:45 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
05:11:03 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. monqy is its centroïd. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across.
05:12:06 <oerjan> `learn_append #esoteric oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part.
05:12:12 <HackEgo> Learned '#esoteric': #esoteric is the only channel that exists. monqy is its centroïd. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part.
05:13:24 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/mon[^.]*/After monqy left it's slightly off-center/' wisdom/#esoteric
05:13:27 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file
05:13:37 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/mon[^.]*/After monqy left it'"'"'s slightly off-center/' wisdom/#esoteric
05:13:45 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it's slightly off-center. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part.
05:14:33 <oerjan> `` sed -i s/enter/entër/ wisdom/#esoteric
05:14:52 <HackEgo> english channel? ¯\(°_o)/¯
05:15:25 <Caesura> Figuring out how to get WebRTC JS to talk to my C server is killing me
05:15:39 <Caesura> Not even slowly, but very rapidly
05:15:53 <HackEgo> Your infamous mysterious evil cackling overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
05:16:22 <zzo38> I think I wrote in the back file for the level20.tex story that Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe play Double Fanucci game against a half dragon and lost; if it was a real dragon then he would be killed instead.
05:16:23 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/infamous/retired/' wisdom/oerjan
05:16:41 <shachaf> `le/rn english channel/If it existed, the English Channel would separate Hexham from Finland.
05:16:48 <zzo38> But since it is half dragon it is only the loss of ten perica (approximately)
05:17:03 <oerjan> `` grep -r chann wisdom
05:17:21 <HackEgo> wisdom/#programming:No such channel. See `? #esoteric \ wisdom/esoteric:This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet. \ wisdom/stereotype:A stereotype is a two-channel monotype. \ wisdom/fungot:fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason. \ wisdom/finland:Finland is a European c
05:17:41 <oerjan> `` grep -r nnël wisdom
05:17:47 <shachaf> `sedlast s/If it existed/Were it to exist/
05:17:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: sedlast: not found
05:18:15 <oerjan> shachaf: sorry about this. i got tired of the race conditions.
05:18:24 <shachaf> `` hg log --removed bin/sedlast | grep summary:
05:18:41 <HackEgo> summary: <oerjan> rm bin/sedlast \ summary: <oerjan> mkx bin/sedlast//files="$(lastfiles)"; sed -i "$1" "$files"; echo -n "$files//"; cat "$files" \ summary: <shachaf> mkx bin/sedlast//sed -i "$1" "$(lastfiles)"
05:19:00 <oerjan> i suppose you can put back since i retired hth
05:21:19 <shachaf> oerjan: well, maybe a sed file//s/.../.../ command would be sufficient
05:21:27 <shachaf> you should write it as penance for deleting the other file twh
05:21:31 <shachaf> just copy the code from mk
05:22:33 <HackEgo> #! /bin/bash \ cmd="$1" \ shift \ f="$*" \ if [[ -z "$f" && "$cmd" == *\ * ]]; then f="${cmd#* }"; cmd="${cmd%% *}"; fi \ if [[ -z "$f" ]]; then echo try: \`f command filename; elif [[ -e "$f" ]]; then "$cmd" "$(< "$f")"; else echo no such file: "$f"; fi
05:22:51 <oerjan> i think that's space-delimited, though
05:23:37 <oerjan> oh and the wrong order
05:23:38 <shachaf> doesn't work for wisdom/english channel
05:24:22 <oerjan> `` hg log --removed bin/sedlast
05:24:28 <HackEgo> changeset: 7813:8bc49d1253ed \ user: HackBot \ date: Fri May 06 00:36:07 2016 +0000 \ summary: <oerjan> rm bin/sedlast \ \ changeset: 7780:87f80d4bcedd \ user: HackBot \ date: Fri May 06 00:15:56 2016 +0000 \ summary: <oerjan> mkx bin/sedlast//files="$(lastfiles)"; sed -i "$1" "$files"; echo -n "$files//"; c
05:24:54 <HackEgo> files="$(lastfiles)"; sed -i "$1" "$files"; echo -n "$files//"; cat "$files"
05:27:09 <shachaf> oerjan: you're practically compliant with the haskell report these days
05:28:19 <shachaf> oerjan: well, i can't blame you
05:28:25 <shachaf> you were already tired, and then you got tired again
05:29:11 <lambdabot> Local time for ski is Sun May 8 06:29:11 2016
05:29:23 <ski> @time shachaf
05:29:25 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Sat May 7 21:29:23 2016
05:29:29 <ski> @time lambdabot
05:29:29 <lambdabot> I live on the internet, do you expect me to have a local time?
05:29:57 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Sun May 8 06:29:56 2016
05:30:15 <ski> oerjan must be one of those early morning birds
05:31:38 <oerjan> provided that you mean that i've been up for 10 hours.
05:31:41 <ski> i suppose it's a case of "leaned so far `foldr' they came back `foldl'"
05:33:09 * ski has been up for .. hmm .. `20' hours, perhaps
05:34:02 <lambdabot> uptime: 5d 13h 11m 53s, longest uptime: 1m 12d 14h 14m 14s
05:34:14 <shachaf> lambdabot: no wonder you're acting like that
05:34:30 <shachaf> ski: Perhaps the time has come to wrap up this document. :-)
05:34:38 <ski> anyway, i don't think i have much more, ontopic, to add to <https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/dinatural> atm
05:34:54 <shachaf> I'd be happy to hear more about the topic at one point. :-)
05:35:08 <shachaf> I should get a book or nlab or something and work through all these definitions until they make sense.
05:35:39 * ski was pondering "decreasing naturals" a little bit earlier
05:36:11 -!- Caesura has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
05:38:33 <shachaf> oerjan: you've infected my keyboard tdnh
05:38:58 <ski> where you'll in general only know an upper bound of the natural number
05:39:26 <oerjan> @tell Taneb <Taneb> Are there any interesting algorithms that run in Theta(BB(n)) time? <-- no, see http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2725#comment-1084808
05:39:36 <ski> i define decreasing naturals as the limits of decreasing infinite sequences of natural numbers
05:40:07 <ski> (well, in practice, as infimum, or alternatively another similar thing. but the "rough idea" is "limits")
05:40:43 <ski> the question is how to compute with decreasing natural numbers
05:41:38 <ski> (if you take infimum, or the other thing, then any infinite sequence of natural numbers would work. but you can reduce that case to the simpler decreasing infinite sequence case)
05:41:51 * ski isn't sure what "the other thing" is called
05:41:57 <oerjan> tip: decreasing infinite sequences of natural numbers are eventually constant hth
05:42:41 <ski> oerjan : unfortunately, proving that requires Lesser Principle of Omniscience
05:42:55 <oerjan> ski: aka induction hth
05:43:11 <ski> (unless you know there's a `0' in the sequence. in that case it works, yes)
05:43:18 <ski> oerjan : no, induction is computable
05:43:19 <shachaf> someone finds turing machines more intuitive than lambda calculus?
05:43:27 <ski> LPO isn't known to be computable
05:43:43 <ski> hm, probably one can show it isn't in `Eff' or something
05:43:45 <oerjan> ski: oh you're doing some constructive nons^Wresearch, don't mind me...
05:44:21 <ski> oerjan : if this wasn't constructive, then "decreasing naturals" would already be iso to "naturals", rendering the whole question uninteresting :)
05:45:17 <ski> oerjan : the question was how to *compute* with decreasing naturals. ergo, we're doing constructive reasoning :)
05:46:02 * ski . o O ( <http://existentialtype.wordpress.com/2011/03/16/languages-and-machines/> )
05:46:04 * oerjan was pretty sure he was joking from the start, although not about exactly what
05:47:17 <oerjan> that's the problem with joking, you might end up obligated to read stuff...
05:48:16 -!- Shubshub has joined.
05:48:28 <Shubshub> Been a long time since I was here last
05:48:48 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:49:06 <oerjan> are you tromp's nemesis
05:49:08 <Shubshub> Not sure if people remember me :P
05:49:14 <Shubshub> I forgot how to add a language
05:49:44 * ski . o O ( Iä iä <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blum_Blum_Shub> )
05:56:16 <ski> (also <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blum%E2%80%93Shub%E2%80%93Smale_machine>)
05:59:53 <ski> yes, i figured
06:07:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Golpher]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46972 * Shubshub * (+1111) Created page with "'''Golpher''' is an esoteric language created to be similar in some ways to Brainfuck but at the same time being its own thing Current Version: 1.0 An online Interpreter can..."
06:08:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Golpher]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46973&oldid=46972 * Shubshub * (+54)
06:09:20 <shachaf> oerjan: Hmm, maybe I should read the whole thread.
06:19:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Shubshub]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46974&oldid=32166 * Shubshub * (-51)
06:29:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46975&oldid=46970 * Shubshub * (+14) /* G */
06:32:25 <oerjan> shachaf: me too! i'm only a few comments past that point.
06:33:28 <shachaf> http://mathoverflow.net/questions/62859/simpler-statements-equivalent-to-conpa-or-conzfc
06:34:00 <oerjan> i think i'll skip following too many links, or i'll never finish tyvm
06:34:26 <shachaf> well that link is a short discussion of the same topic from 2011
06:40:47 <shachaf> tromp: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_lambda_calculus says that Haskell-style I/O requires a type system, but that isn't true.
06:41:37 <shachaf> Not that BLC would benefit from Haskell-style I/O, for the things it's typically used for.
06:41:49 <zzo38> There it is: http://zzo38computer.org/inquiz/inquiz.js
06:49:30 -!- tromp_ has joined.
06:52:08 <shachaf> oerjan: also the claim in comment 176 is false
06:52:26 -!- dingbat has joined.
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06:52:47 <shachaf> I'd comment if it wasn't so off-topic.
06:54:09 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
06:55:32 <shachaf> Of course, in Haskell you don't even need the number argument.
07:20:04 <shachaf> <shachaf> Hmm, there's an advantage to *-kinded naturals over promoted DataKinded naturals:
07:20:09 <shachaf> <shachaf> If I write data Z = Z; data S n = S n, then I can use [S (S (S Z))] on the value level to compactly express a type argument.
07:20:14 <shachaf> <shachaf> I don't think there's anything as convenient with DataKinded naturals.
07:25:55 <oerjan> sheesh i hadn't even loaded that
07:27:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Golpher]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46976&oldid=46973 * Shubshub * (+94) Smaller Hello World Example
07:28:35 <Shubshub> &++<'×<&÷+<^-<<×-<#!+<$@-<&@<×-<@++<@<.!<= is Hello World is Golpher
07:29:06 <oerjan> Shubshub: that's pretty long for a hello world in a golfing language
07:29:14 <oerjan> even one without cheating
07:29:26 <oerjan> WELL THE NAME COULD HAVE FOOLED ME
07:29:31 <zgrep> It's a gopher language that happens to have an l in it?
07:29:55 <zgrep> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopher
07:30:00 <Shubshub> Isn't Golpher how you spell the animals name?
07:30:23 <oerjan> Shubshub: you can move the page, unless there's a duplicate
07:31:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Shubshub * moved [[Golpher]] to [[Gopher]]: Renamed Language to Correct Spelling
07:32:06 <oerjan> Shubshub: want me to delete the redirect in the old place?
07:32:27 <zgrep> Does it do that automatically?
07:32:39 <oerjan> it makes a redirect automatically
07:32:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Golpher]]": Author request: content was: "#REDIRECT [[Gopher]]" (and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/Shubshub|Shubshub]]")
07:34:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46979&oldid=46975 * Oerjan * (-1) /* G */ sp
07:34:48 <shachaf> Shubshub: When Phantom_Hoover is around, you should tell him about your language.
07:35:06 <Shubshub> Yeah when it works again It just broke .-.
07:35:51 <oerjan> time for one of my patent sortings
07:37:31 <zgrep> oerjan: You sort patents?
07:39:24 * zgrep quietly wonders whether it would be easier/nicer to instead of manually creating lists of languages, languages belonged to categories such as 'Joke Language' and 'Esoteric Language', etc, and the lists would be made courtesy of MediaWiki...
07:39:25 <oerjan> shachaf: that was HackEgo
07:39:57 <oerjan> zgrep: we discussed that just the other day.
07:40:09 <zgrep> Ah. I wasn't watching the other day, I guess.
07:40:12 <HackEgo> Concentrate and ask again.
07:40:17 * zgrep wonders what special magic lets HackEgo know when things have changed on the wiki
07:40:35 <shachaf> oerjan: doesn't look like it hth
07:40:48 <zgrep> oerjan: Care to summarize if you remember any? Or should I just go back and read what was said?
07:40:49 <oerjan> zgrep: they're on the same server, and there's some kind of push api
07:41:14 <shachaf> oerjan: so HackEgo is the wiki's push kin?
07:41:47 <oerjan> zgrep: well mostly that neither categories or the lists include everything
07:41:59 <shachaf> must be too tired for puns
07:42:16 <oerjan> and also i mentioned (ok so i was there) that the names of languages and articles don't always agree for technical reasons.
07:42:39 <oerjan> zgrep: also, the Joke language list is much more elaborate with descriptions.
07:42:47 <oerjan> (i don't think that was mentioned)
07:43:23 <zgrep> oerjan: Well, I mean, making them agree would be a prerequisite to such a change. :P
07:43:48 <zgrep> Ah, I see. Hmmm...
07:44:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gopher]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46980&oldid=46977 * Shubshub * (+237)
07:44:11 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't see what a bad outlook has to do with whether i'm retired hth
07:44:24 <shachaf> oerjan: you might be retired, but HackEgo isn't
07:44:33 <shachaf> so stop editing the wiki and start editing HackEgo hth
07:46:56 <oerjan> shachaf: i'd swat you but i don't know how to do it in russian hth
07:47:37 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye).
07:49:04 <shachaf> Was that the website that tracked its visitors and told you all sorts of details about them?
07:49:15 <shachaf> I mean, all websites do that.
07:49:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Shubshub]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46981&oldid=46974 * Shubshub * (-1)
07:49:27 <shachaf> But they don't all tell you.
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07:54:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46982&oldid=46979 * Oerjan * (+7) order! also piped link.
07:54:38 <shachaf> whoa, GHC is getting explicit type application? https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/5296
07:54:54 <oerjan> isn't that ancient news
07:55:12 <shachaf> Maybe? I didn't hear about it.
07:55:29 <shachaf> I haven't been paying attention much.
07:55:30 * Shubshub whispers "Someone should write a Gopher -> Brainfuck Converter"
07:55:30 <oerjan> i'm backlogged to middle march, and i still know that.
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07:55:54 <shachaf> I'm backlogged to about a year ago.
07:56:10 <oerjan> shachaf: don't you do haskell any more
07:56:20 <Shubshub> I need to add a function that lets it loop back to the start of the code
07:56:24 <shachaf> Sometimes I grouch in #haskell.
07:56:28 <shachaf> I don't even know why, though.
07:56:30 <Shubshub> Things like 99 bottles of beer can be short then
07:56:34 <oerjan> okay. neither do i, fwiw.
07:57:06 <Shubshub> fwiw I golfed 99 Bottles of beer in JS
07:57:07 <Shubshub> b=" bottle";e=(c=" of beer")+" on the wall. ";j=b+e;for(i=100;--i;)h=(k=(g=b+"s")+e)+i+g+c+"\nTake 1 down & pass it around, ",console.log(i+(i<2?j+i+b+c+"\nGo to the store & buy some more, 99"+k:i<3?h+1+j:h+(i-1)+k))
07:57:17 <shachaf> and yet you still knew about it
07:57:58 <oerjan> i said i didn't do haskell, not that i didn't read about it.
07:58:07 <zgrep> Wait, do what in russian?
07:58:22 <oerjan> zgrep: swat shachaf for his pushkin pun hth
08:04:22 <shachaf> I was going to complain on the mailing list that this is more compact than DataKinds.
08:04:41 * zgrep даёт shachaf по щеке за его словесные игры
08:04:46 <zgrep> ^ oerjan, will that suffice?
08:04:53 <shachaf> But now that I see that they implemented type application, I guess I'll scrap the complaint.
08:05:01 <shachaf> zgrep: it's missing an important ingredient hth
08:05:26 <shachaf> zgrep: also what do you think of all these russian people
08:05:57 <shachaf> like vissarion belinsky and alexander herzen and mikhail bakunin and ivan turgenev
08:06:11 <shachaf> i saw a play about them. it was pretty good.
08:07:24 <shachaf> oh, herzen is pronounced with a g?
08:07:29 <oerjan> zgrep: not really, it's a flyswatter
08:07:44 * zgrep has grown up in America, and is mostly oblivious to Russian culture :(
08:08:19 <shachaf> zgrep: well these well all 19th century people anyway
08:09:57 <zgrep> Haven't had the chance to meet them recently.
08:10:03 <shachaf> zgrep: well pushkin is also in it
08:11:31 * zgrep has vague recollections of many of those names (pushkin - of course, mikhail bakunin - somewhere, turgenev - also somewhere, gertzeg also rings a bell, but zgrep has not heard of belinsky...)
08:12:05 <shachaf> bakunin was a bit of a clown in the play
08:12:09 <Shubshub> Originally I did have a +2 and -2 symbol in Gopher
08:12:12 <shachaf> and maybe also in life, if the play is accurate
08:12:14 <Shubshub> But it made the output look fugly
08:14:16 <shachaf> oerjan: So now the order of type variables matters?
08:16:08 <oerjan> . o O ( does this affect the PVP >:) )
08:16:37 <shachaf> And they allow ambiguous types now, too?
08:16:47 <shachaf> So (show . read) :: (Show a, Read a) => String -> String
08:17:13 <shachaf> Isn't there ever an issue with ambiguous types where there are multiple type variables and the compiler needs to choose an order?
08:17:29 <shachaf> Seems really touchy to specify that.
08:17:48 <shachaf> Looks like there's a paper...
08:18:08 <Shubshub> Unicode makes the output go beserk
08:18:49 <oerjan> shachaf: i vaguely think they settled on "you can only use type application on an identifier" to prevent ambiguities
08:19:28 <shachaf> And if I "let f = ambiguousExpression in f @A @B"?
08:20:00 <oerjan> i'm not exactly sure. it's possible f needs a type signature.
08:20:26 <shachaf> "In practice, these guidelines mean that visible type application is available only on types that are given by an annotation."
08:21:21 <shachaf> I don't like making the order matter like that.
08:22:03 <oerjan> it remains to see if this extension will be useable in practice.
08:23:04 <shachaf> Well, I'd certainly be glad to get rid of the whole Proxy nonsense.
08:23:13 <shachaf> By the way, can I have a type as a member of an existential?
08:23:30 <oerjan> (that PVP thing could be an issue ... your code could break because someone not using the extension thought rearranging a type signature was a minor version change)
08:23:45 <shachaf> data T = forall a. K a => T
08:24:18 <shachaf> oerjan: That only matters to people who write real code rather than play with the type system, though.
08:24:19 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't see why not
08:24:36 <shachaf> I don't see why not either, but did they actually implement it?
08:25:20 <shachaf> oerjan: Also versions are scow.
08:25:21 * oerjan isn't _entirely_ up to date to hasekll.
08:25:55 <shachaf> The right way to manage versions is to put all the code in the world into one repository and always keep it up to date.
08:26:51 <oerjan> i'm happy to see you weren't being serious.
08:27:28 <shachaf> I'm not serious in that that's not workable in practice.
08:27:36 <shachaf> But it's what e.g. Google does, and it works pretty well there.
08:28:29 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: That only matters to people who write real code rather than play with the type system, though. <-- yes, but if they use this extension to get rid of Proxys, it might leak into real code pretty soon?
08:29:31 <shachaf> oerjan: the point is why would you or i care about it hth
08:29:54 * oerjan reject the fascism of the keyboard
08:29:59 <shachaf> oerjan: i'm not turing-complete hth
08:30:24 <shachaf> actually someone tried to hire me to write real haskell code the other day
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09:05:08 <shachaf> invent anything good overnight?
09:05:27 <Taneb> I don't know yet, I haven't read the logs
09:06:54 <shachaf> Oh, you find out at the same time as the rest of us?
09:07:59 <Taneb> Not when I'm asleep, no
09:08:17 <shachaf> Well, I always assumed you knew as soon as you invented things.
09:08:28 <shachaf> But I guess you only find out about it from IRC.
09:09:00 <Taneb> I enjoy the surprise
09:10:05 <Taneb> Sometimes, not always or even often
09:10:43 <shachaf> I almost tanebvented a whole bunch of things but I didn't put them in HackEgo.
09:11:49 <shachaf> Taneb: what do you think of sondheim
09:12:14 <Taneb> I was once in a production of Into the Woods once
09:12:48 <shachaf> Hmm, does linear logic deal with things that happen once once?
09:12:54 <shachaf> Or do you need linear linear logic?
09:13:17 <shachaf> Taneb: imo sweeney todd is tg hth
09:14:09 <Taneb> Sweeney Todd is transgender?
09:14:17 <Taneb> I saw that in London a few years ago
09:14:42 <Taneb> Oh, that makes somewhat more sense
09:21:22 <Shubshub> Anyone made anything cool with Gopher yet? :P
09:23:00 <shachaf> zzo38 has been posting a lot of Gopher programs.
09:25:38 <Shubshub> I didnt even add the language before I joined today
09:33:42 <hppavilion[1]> Used to contain the utterance "An unknown source on IRC has verified that everyone knows or reasonably should know about this film. Anyone claiming not to be aware of it, is feigning ignorance."
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09:35:45 <Shubshub> Someone said I should show you my new language
09:36:00 <Shubshub> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Gopher
09:36:33 <Phantom_Hoover> tell them i outsourced that sort of thing to hppavilion[1] some time ago
09:37:35 <hppavilion[1]> Shubshub: I'm not sure whether to be angry by the description. Allow me to investigate the langauge
09:38:45 <hppavilion[1]> Shubshub: OK, it seems like it doesn't trivially reduce to brainfuck without thought. So I'll give you a pass.
09:39:24 * hppavilion[1] considers going through the list of BF Derivatives and giving an approve/deny on the talk page
09:40:15 <Hoolootwo> but the table is only 128 chars long, right?
09:41:21 <hppavilion[1]> Shubshub: OK, you just lost points for confusing those two
09:43:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gopher]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46983&oldid=46980 * Shubshub * (+2)
09:48:41 <Shubshub> I should add the ability to have Nested For Loops as an actual symbol
09:48:53 <Shubshub> That way its less reliant on the language the interpreter is written in
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10:00:20 <ski> <shachaf> I don't like making the order matter like that.
10:00:45 <ski> worse, imho, would be to make the actual names used in the quantifier matter
10:00:57 <ski> (iirc, Agda actually does this ?)
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12:24:57 <b_jonas> oerjan, shachaf: Great. So if I use HackEgo here then I'm spamming the channel, and if I use it in private message, then you can't check the logs (despite that there's a mercurial you can just ask for changes in wisdom). I can't win.
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12:35:16 <fizzie> I suppose we don't even have anyone from Hexham on the channel anymore.
12:40:00 <b_jonas> shachaf: I added a lastwisdoms command that prints the last modified wisdoms, with dates when they were last modified. (it's uniqed, so each wisdom printed only once, when it was last modified, since people including me often edit wisdoms multiple times in quick succession)
12:40:23 <b_jonas> there was already a lastfiles command by the way
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12:41:42 <b_jonas> `lastwisdoms does this work?
12:41:55 <HackEgo> 2016-05-08 english channel oerjan #esoteric hfs 2016-05-07 amnesium wisest human gene ray adventure timecube time cube tas ta wisdom/tas 2016-05-06 huh ta acab brainfuck hms pinafore wisdoom tanebvention robot wisdom/tanebvention bbc ciol 2016-05-05 violation 2016-05-04 imho 2016-05-03 substructural typing jnk/userwep
12:42:31 <b_jonas> huh... what's that with ta wisdom/tas there?
12:42:51 <b_jonas> I think if you modify two wisdom entries at the same command it breaks
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12:47:45 <int-e> `? english channel
12:47:47 <HackEgo> If it existed, the English Channel would separate Hexham from Finland.
12:47:59 <HackEgo> An amnesium is a school where you forget everything you learned after each test.
12:48:49 <b_jonas> int-e: there's two wisdom files changed in that commit, "wisdom/ta" and "wisdom/tas"
12:49:07 <b_jonas> and now I'm trying to find out how to use hg so it prints those unambiguousyl rather than just separated by a space
12:53:22 <int-e> `` hg export --nodates -r tip | grep ^+++
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13:18:36 <fizzie> According to the documentation, you're supposed to... well, to quote:
13:18:39 <fizzie> "Some sample command line templates:
13:18:49 <fizzie> - Join the list of files with a ", ":
13:18:55 <fizzie> $ hg log -r 0 --template "files: {join(files, ', ')}\n"
13:19:05 <fizzie> But that's not a-working.
13:20:05 <fizzie> Hmm, the other sample seems to be working.
13:20:43 <int-e> `` hg log --template "{date|shortdate}:{join(files, '-')}\n"
13:20:47 <HackEgo> ** unknown exception encountered, please report by visiting \ ** http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/BugTracker \ ** Python 2.7.3 (default, Jan 2 2013, 13:56:14) [GCC 4.7.2] \ ** Mercurial Distributed SCM (version 2.2.2) \ ** Extensions loaded: \ Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/usr/bin/hg", line 38, in <module> \ mercurial.dis
13:20:57 <HackEgo> Mercurial Distributed SCM (version 2.2.2) \ (see http://mercurial.selenic.com for more information) \ \ Copyright (C) 2005-2012 Matt Mackall and others \ This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO \ warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
13:21:03 <int-e> Mercurial Distributed SCM (version 3.8.1)
13:21:52 <fizzie> Yeah, and the other example that I thought was working -- {files % '{file}\n'} -- just actually does the same as plain {files}, separates them by spaces rather than doing one line per file.
13:22:05 <fizzie> Guess it's just too old.
13:22:18 <fizzie> `` hg help templates | paste
13:22:41 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.29213
13:23:05 <fizzie> Doesn't mention any of that stuff.
13:34:48 <fizzie> If nothing else, you could DIY it from a "{date|shortdate}\0{rev}\0" template + modify the perl part to pre-expand /^\d+$/ with some suitable hg magic to get files for one revision.
13:35:29 <fizzie> (I like how it just goes and crashes when given something it doesn't grok.)
13:35:50 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, but how do I distinguish between someone modifying one file "wisdom/a wisdom/b" and someone modifying two files "wisdom/a" and "wisdom/b"?
13:36:18 <fizzie> I'm sure you can get the list of files for *one* revision in a not-just-space-separated form.
13:37:16 <b_jonas> technically, you could test for each file with a file pattern I think
13:37:22 <b_jonas> but that would be ugly work
13:37:39 <fizzie> (int-e had a "hg export | grep ^+++"-y approach that looks plausible, for the single revision case.)
13:40:41 <fizzie> # ps auxww | fgrep -c '[python] <defunct>'
13:40:56 <fizzie> Someone should really make the hackbot code wait for those pythons.
13:41:03 <int-e> hg status --change <commit> -n0 would be even better, but it's way too slow.
13:41:22 <int-e> I wonder how many of those are my fault.
13:42:29 <b_jonas> argh, hackego is so slow now
13:42:56 <fizzie> So many umlbox processes as well.
13:43:09 <int-e> let's pile them on
13:47:42 <lambdabot> EGLL 081220Z AUTO 12015KT 9999 NCD 26/08 Q1006 NOSIG
13:54:55 <b_jonas> ``` hg diff -c 7938 | grep ^diff
13:54:59 <HackEgo> diff -r ff34e0948c3e -r b4d8bd1a2c8f wisdom/ta \ diff -r ff34e0948c3e -r b4d8bd1a2c8f wisdom/tas
13:55:02 <b_jonas> fizzie: the diff idea might work
13:55:31 <b_jonas> I think I'll just leave it this way
13:55:44 <b_jonas> if you change more than one wisdom entry, you'll get that junk in the output, so what
13:55:59 <b_jonas> I don't care enough to work around your stupid mercurials for this
13:56:05 <fizzie> You also get non-wisdom junk if you change wisdom and non-wisdom files.
13:56:21 <fizzie> 12:41 <HackEgo> 2016-05-08 english channel oerjan #esoteric hfs 2016-05-07 amnesium wisest human gene ray adventure timecube time cube tas ta wisdom/tas 2016-05-06 huh ta acab brainfuck hms pinafore wisdoom tanebvention robot wisdom/tanebvention bbc ciol 2016-05-05 violation 2016-05-04 imho 2016-05-03 substructural typing jnk/userwep
13:56:27 <fizzie> See "jnk/userwep" on the above output.
13:56:35 <fizzie> It may have been pushed off by now.
13:56:51 <b_jonas> oh whatever, I'm not interested
13:57:18 <b_jonas> I gave it an honest attempt, but if mercurial is just stupid
13:57:34 <b_jonas> then I'll rather work on making termbot better or something
13:57:56 <fizzie> An up-to-date version would make it trivial.
13:58:17 <fizzie> I should maybe look into whether I could update the system in that chroot.
13:59:30 <fizzie> (I mean, with a current version it should be just --template "{date|shortdate}\0{join(files,'\0')}\0" to get the sort of list you want.)
14:01:24 <b_jonas> fizzie: and a faster hackego
14:01:49 <b_jonas> hmm... as for termbot, I split it the emulated image to two disks, a system disk and a user disk
14:02:07 <int-e> `` /bin/ls -t .hg/store/data/wisdom/** | perl -pe 'chomp; s=^.hg/store/data/wisdom/(.*).i$=\1 =; s=_(.)=uc($1)=eg; s=~([0-9a-f][0-9a-f])=chr(hex($1))=eg'
14:02:09 <HackEgo> english channel oerjan #esoteric hfs amnesium wisest human gene ray adventure timecube time cube tas huh ta acab brainfuck hms pinafore wisdoom tanebvention bbc ciol violation imho userweps 🐚 overlord alpha companion cube butterfly cipation password wat tribble prefixes itymology philosophy ¿ insurance numbe
14:02:11 <b_jonas> the system disk can be reverted, and I can upgrade it without affecting the user disk
14:02:23 <b_jonas> so I can upgrade the system easily without losing data on the user disk
14:02:54 <b_jonas> the intent is that if you mess up something in the image, then you can revert the system disk with an irc command, and it should boot fine
14:03:05 <b_jonas> that almost works, but not quite,
14:03:13 <b_jonas> the irc command currently doesn't work but I can fix that,
14:03:29 <b_jonas> and there's one more problem
14:04:17 <b_jonas> the user disk is used a little at boot up, so if you mess it up a lot then you can't fix it throuhg irc because the system won't boot
14:04:28 <b_jonas> I should at least fix the revert command
14:05:51 <b_jonas> maybe I could have two commands, one for restoring the user disk, one for restoring the system disk
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14:48:50 <HackEgo> /2016-05-08/ english channel // oerjan // #esoteric // hfs // /2016-05-07/ amnesium // wisest human // gene ray // adventure // timecube // time cube // tas // /2016-05-06/ huh // ta // acab // brainfuck // hms pinafore // wisdoom // tanebvention // bbc // ciol // /2016-05-05/ violation // /2016-05-04/ imho // /2016-05-03/ userweps // 🐚 // ov
14:50:23 <int-e> It's become terribly ugly. :)
14:50:43 <Taneb> `? /2016-05-06/ huh
14:50:45 <HackEgo> /2016-05-06/ huh? ¯\(°_o)/¯
14:50:50 <int-e> Taneb: it's a DATE
14:50:53 <coppro> Taneb: those are just the dates they were added hth
14:51:25 * int-e thought about it. // is impossible to fake, and a leading / as well.
14:51:41 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, gazpacho, Stephen Wolfram, Go, submarine jousting, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, Lambek's lemma, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
14:51:43 <int-e> (well, "impossible")
14:51:50 <int-e> there's always zero-width spaces
14:52:00 <HackEgo> You're in a 20 foot by 20 foot stone room. A stout oaken door banded with iron affords the only visible egress. As you approach the door, an imp appears. "Hello, INSERT NAME. To pass, you must solve my puzzle. SEE HANDOUT 1 ON PAGE 17."
14:52:12 <int-e> `cat bin/lastwisdoms
14:52:12 <HackEgo> find .hg/store/data/wisdom -type f -print0 | xargs -0 /bin/ls -t | perl -pe 'use POSIX;chop;$d=strftime("%F",localtime((stat($_))[9]));s=^.hg/store/data/wisdom/(.*).i$=\1 // =;s=^=/$d/ = if$d ne$p;$p=$d;s=_(.)=uc($1)=eg;s=~([0-9a-f][0-9a-f])=chr hex$1=eg'
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14:54:11 <b_jonas> “those are just the dates they were added hth” added or deleted, unless you changed that too
14:54:36 <b_jonas> it shows deleted wisdoms too
14:54:40 <b_jonas> that is probably a feature
14:54:52 <int-e> (since it's not actually looking at the commits but at the hg store... not sure what happens when you rename files.)
14:54:55 <b_jonas> (it doesn't show people sneakily editing bin/\? though)
14:55:09 <int-e> feel free to revert... but I had to push this approach through
14:55:29 <b_jonas> int-e: if you're talking about the formatting, it's fine for me
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14:56:41 <int-e> renames should show the "new" file. so they are visible
14:57:16 <b_jonas> ``` mv -vi wisdom/{,professor\ }gene\ ray
14:57:18 <HackEgo> `wisdom/gene ray' -> `wisdom/professor gene ray'
14:57:25 <HackEgo> /2016-05-08/ professor gene ray // english channel // oerjan // #esoteric // hfs // /2016-05-07/ amnesium // wisest human // gene ray // adventure // timecube // time cube // tas // /2016-05-06/ huh // ta // acab // brainfuck // hms pinafore // wisdoom // tanebvention // bbc // ciol // /2016-05-05/ violation // /2016-05-04/ imho // /2016-05-03/
14:57:33 <b_jonas> ``` mv -vi wisdom/{professor\ ,}gene\ ray
14:57:36 <HackEgo> `wisdom/professor gene ray' -> `wisdom/gene ray'
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14:58:11 <b_jonas> int-e: seems it shows only the new name, not the deleted old name. that could be a problem if someone moves a file out of wisdom, or even hg accidentally detecting a rename out of wisdom
14:59:33 <b_jonas> but the goal is to make sure oerjan or shachaf can see all the stupid wisdoms I add, then it's fine
14:59:44 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
15:00:01 <b_jonas> `learn wisdoms.pdf Nicely formatted wisdoms and quotes book at] https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf
15:00:05 <HackEgo> Learned 'wisdoms.pdf': wisdoms.pdf Nicely formatted wisdoms and quotes book at] https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf
15:00:06 <b_jonas> `learn wisdoms.pdf Nicely formatted wisdoms and quotes book at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf
15:00:09 <HackEgo> Relearned 'wisdoms.pdf': wisdoms.pdf Nicely formatted wisdoms and quotes book at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf
15:00:15 <b_jonas> `learn wisdom.pdf Nicely formatted wisdoms and quotes book at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf
15:00:18 <HackEgo> Relearned 'wisdom.pdf': wisdom.pdf Nicely formatted wisdoms and quotes book at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf
15:00:19 <HackEgo> wisdom.pdf Nicely formatted wisdoms and quotes book at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf
15:00:43 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
15:00:48 <HackEgo> wisdom.pdf is https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf
15:00:49 <int-e> yeah, deletions are invisible to that version... since they don't affect the file store, only metadata
15:00:58 <b_jonas> `learn wisdom.pdf Nicely formatted wisdoms and quotes book at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf
15:01:00 <HackEgo> Relearned 'wisdom.pdf': wisdom.pdf Nicely formatted wisdoms and quotes book at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf
15:01:31 <b_jonas> int-e: ok, I don't know how hg works and don't even want to learn it
15:01:51 <b_jonas> it's enough for me to try to understand git and its stupid synatx
15:02:02 <int-e> the sane solution is to update mercurial to a version that supports the {join()} stuff
15:02:12 <b_jonas> in git, ":/" is magic syntax for two completely different things. it's horrible.
15:02:45 <b_jonas> int-e: hmm, if we install a second mercurial in user-space, will it be able to read this repo?
15:04:54 <b_jonas> are there binaries we can install to any path, or do we have to build from source for that?
15:05:30 <b_jonas> (my principle is that I prefer solutions where we just upgrade well-maintined tools rather than try to work around stuff in old versions)
15:05:46 <b_jonas> (tends to reduce code duplication)
15:07:00 <b_jonas> if only this damned hackego had less latency
15:07:08 <int-e> I don't know. It's mostly python, but I don't know how they deal with changing file paths.
15:07:14 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
15:08:42 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/ls: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ /hackenv/bin/ls: fork: retry: No child processes \ /hackenv/bin/ls: fork: retry: No child processes \ /hackenv/bin/ls: fork: retry: No child processes \ /hackenv/bin/ls: fork: retry: No child processes \ /hackenv/bin/ls: fork: retry: No child processes
15:08:53 <int-e> shachaf broke that
15:09:27 <int-e> `` sed -i 's=(ls=(/bin/ls=' bin/ls
15:09:35 <HackEgo> !\.´ \ advice \ bin \ canary \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ theorems \ tmflry \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
15:10:20 <b_jonas> ``` ps o "cmd" | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn
15:14:06 <b_jonas> ah nice, the hackego has multiarch lib directories
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15:21:20 <b_jonas> You know about the date format stuff?
15:22:24 <b_jonas> apparently there's at least three different short format to identify an episode in a *tv series* by the ordinal of the season and the ordinal of the episode within the season together.
15:22:52 <b_jonas> there's like "S6 E7", "607", and "6x07" and those are just the common ones
15:23:35 <b_jonas> I think it's partly because people upload tv series episodes to video websites like youtube and want to make the name less easy to search so that youtube doesn't find it so quickly or something
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15:27:10 <lambdabot> Local time for tromp is Sun May 8 10:27:10 2016
15:27:23 <HackEgo> I think you might mean !logs
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15:28:01 <\oren\> yes, roman numerals. really.
15:28:57 <\oren\> also, I hate the way a lot of the tools at my workplace use american date format and I always get it wrong the first time
15:29:27 <\oren\> the UN should pass a resolution against middle-endian dates
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15:40:23 -!- Reece` has joined.
15:40:59 <b_jonas> at least I have aliases lik
15:41:03 <HackEgo> 2016-05-08 14:40:59.791682000+00:00
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15:43:00 <HackEgo> Sun May 8 14:42:57 UTC 2016
15:45:57 <zzo38> How do I check for reason why the computer rebooted (if it is due to the operating system rather than hardware)?
15:46:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: um, dunno, try to look in system logs for what happened before the reboot
15:53:26 <zzo38> How do I know which one is when it rebooted?
15:57:22 <zzo38> There are a lot of lines like this in the system log: May 7 22:39:01 zzo38computer CRON[23932]: (root) CMD ( [ -x /usr/lib/php5/maxlifetime ] && [ -d /var/lib/php5 ] && find /var/lib/php5/ -depth -mindepth 1 -maxdepth 1 -type f -cmin +$(/usr/lib/php5/maxlifetim
15:58:16 <zzo38> Can you tell me what it is for? It seem to be something related to PHP but why does it need to do that every half hour it seems?
15:58:28 -!- gremlins has joined.
15:58:31 <b_jonas> oh by the way, zzo38: I took my old termbot and modified a little bit, and I'll try to improve it a bit more to make it more useful
15:58:38 <b_jonas> it's currently running in #termbot in a partly broken state
15:59:48 -!- Reece` has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
15:59:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: as for that cron entry, try to look in your crontab (there's two of them, beware, a system one in /etc/cron.* and a per-user one in /var/spool/cron/crontabs )
16:01:32 <zzo38> O, it purges old sessions. I don't use PHP sessions, so should I disable that?
16:02:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know, but I don't see why that would be a problem or why it would be related to your reboot
16:03:09 <b_jonas> if you don't use php sessions and want to disable the purge cron task, then maybe also try to change the system so that if something tries to create a php session there, it fails
16:03:12 <zzo38> I think the reboot was due to power failure actually; I just looked at my clock now and it is flashing.
16:03:18 <int-e> it's nice to have some useless cronjob around that narrows down the time of the crash :P
16:03:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: ah, that's quite possible
16:03:43 -!- copumpkin has joined.
16:03:49 <b_jonas> is there a UPS before that computer/
16:04:13 <zzo38> The computer does have a UPS but the battery does not work so it is only acting as a surge protector.
16:05:12 <b_jonas> I have a separate surge protector and no UPS
16:06:04 <b_jonas> although I'm not sure this surge protector actually works
16:06:08 <b_jonas> maybe I should buy a new one...
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16:44:32 <zzo38> Do you like the JavaScript implementation of Internet Quiz Engine?
16:45:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know anything about that.
16:45:35 <zzo38> It is http://zzo38computer.org/inquiz/inquiz.js
16:46:07 <zzo38> The C implementation is the canonical version though and new features will still be added to the C version first.
16:46:11 <b_jonas> this is awesome, I didn't know about this => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallic_hydrogen
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16:46:48 <b_jonas> the awesome part isn't that such a thing can exist, or even that it might exist in the cores of gas giant planets
16:47:25 <b_jonas> the awesome part is that experimental physicists say “core of Jupiter, eh? that sounds easy enough, let's build machines to replicate it.”
16:47:34 <zzo38> On period table hydrogen is on the left side, with the metals
16:48:02 <b_jonas> zzo38: that it can become liquid at high pressure isn't too surprising
16:48:26 <b_jonas> but that physicists seriously consider to test that experimentally by creating the large pressure, that is
16:49:26 <b_jonas> experimental physicists are also writing articles about plausible ways of very expensive space-borne equipment to use some sort of lasers in space to create negative energy and wormholes and a time machine or something
16:50:35 <b_jonas> they can't fund it yet because it would cost much more than some more space-based gravitational wave detector, which is already too expensive to get funded yet (although there are plans, both in China and outside) and would be MUCH more important and useful than any of the time machine stuff
16:51:17 <b_jonas> but still, they don't just shrug it off as a practical impossibility and say it's the theoretical physicist's job to figure out how that stuff works and they can't help
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16:57:06 <b_jonas> moon___: I figured out that the revert system disk command is currently broken, and wouldn't work if you tried it, so I disabled it for now,
16:57:14 <b_jonas> but I can still revert the system disk manually when necessary
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17:22:33 -!- Caesura has changed nick to Caesura|Away.
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17:29:14 <zzo38> Maybe I should add into inquiz.js the ability to parse namespaced comments, in case you want to use them for formatting in a custom front-end.
17:30:56 <shachaf> b_jonas: I think "mutating commands or commands that are interesting to other people go in the channel" is a reasonable rule.
17:36:34 <b_jonas> shachaf: ok, I'll try to put more of the wisdom editing stuff in the channel then
17:36:42 <b_jonas> even if it's boring and spamming
17:36:54 <b_jonas> for now, just check out those ones in `lastwisdoms or something
17:36:55 <shachaf> Well, if it's boring, it probably oughtn't happen at all.
17:37:13 <HackEgo> /2016-05-08/ hydrogen // wisdom.pdf // wisdoms.pdf // gene ray // professor gene ray // english channel // oerjan // #esoteric // hfs // /2016-05-07/ amnesium // wisest human // adventure // timecube // time cube // tas // /2016-05-06/ huh // ta // acab // brainfuck // hms pinafore // wisdoom // tanebvention // bbc // ciol // /2016-05-05/ violat
17:37:33 <HackEgo> Dr Gene Ray is the Greatest Philosopher, and is the Greatest Mathematician. Cubic Harmonics. Only Cubic Harmonics can save humanity. Cubic Harmonics will pacify all religions. 96-hour Cubic Day debunks 1-day unnatural god. 96-hour day willdisprove disunity god. Academians are teaching - pseudocience. Worshipping a Word God will destroy the USA.
17:37:37 <HackEgo> Dr Gene Ray is the Greatest Philosopher, and is the Greatest Mathematician. Cubic Harmonics. Only Cubic Harmonics can save humanity. Cubic Harmonics will pacify all religions. 96-hour Cubic Day debunks 1-day unnatural god. 96-hour day willdisprove disunity god. Academians are teaching - pseudocience. Worshipping a Word God will destroy the USA.
17:37:39 <HackEgo> You're in a 20 foot by 20 foot stone room. A stout oaken door banded with iron affords the only visible egress. As you approach the door, an imp appears. "Hello, INSERT NAME. To pass, you must solve my puzzle. SEE HANDOUT 1 ON PAGE 17."
17:37:40 <HackEgo> EARTH HAS 4 CORNER SIMULTANEOUS 4-DAY TIME CUBE IN ONLY 24 HORU ROTATION. 4 CORNER DAYS, CUBES 4 QUAD EARTH. Bible A Lie & Word Is Lies. Navel Connects 4 Corner 4s. God Is Born Of A Mother - She Left Belly B. Signature. Your dirty lying teachers use only the midnight to midnight 1 day (ignoring 3 other days) Time to not foul (already wrong) bible t
17:37:43 <HackEgo> EARTH HAS 4 CORNER SIMULTANEOUS 4-DAY TIME CUBE IN ONLY 24 HORU ROTATION. 4 CORNER DAYS, CUBES 4 QUAD EARTH. Bible A Lie & Word Is Lies. Navel Connects 4 Corner 4s. God Is Born Of A Mother - She Left Belly B. Signature. Your dirty lying teachers use only the midnight to midnight 1 day (ignoring 3 other days) Time to not foul (already wrong) bible t
17:37:54 <HackEgo> wisdom.pdf Nicely formatted wisdoms and quotes book at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf
17:37:58 <HackEgo> wisdoms.pdf Nicely formatted wisdoms and quotes book at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf
17:38:08 <b_jonas> there, now you've hopefully seen them
17:38:21 <b_jonas> though there's some older ones I added earlier
17:38:25 <shachaf> That entry is too long. It's getting cut off.
17:38:41 <b_jonas> entirely approperiate in this case I think
17:39:08 <b_jonas> ``` \? time\ cube | dd bs=10 skip=30
17:39:11 <HackEgo> 10+1 records in \ 10+1 records out \ 106 bytes (106 B) copied, 0.26676 s, 0.4 kB/s \ her days) Time to not foul (already wrong) bible time. Lie that corrupts earth you educated stupid fools.
17:39:21 <HackEgo> Wisdoom is realizing just too late how you could have avoided your demise.
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17:46:19 <tswett> So, about Pentavus: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=pentavus
17:46:40 <tswett> It has this ability: "(1), Remove a +1/+1 counter from Pentavus: Put a 1/1 colorless Pentavite artifact creature token with flying onto the battlefield."
17:46:55 <tswett> And also this one: "(1), Sacrifice a Pentavite: Put a +1/+1 counter on Pentavus."
17:47:31 <tswett> I wonder what would happen if it didn't have that second ability, and that first ability instead said:
17:48:07 <tswett> (1), Remove a +1/+1 counter from Pentavus: Put a 1/1 colorless Pentavite artifact creature token with flying onto the battlefield. It has "(1), Sacrifice Pentavite: Put a +1/+1 counter on Pentavus."
17:49:28 <b_jonas> tswett: no way. then you'd somehow have to remember which Pentavus was created from where. It'd be a serious memory issue, and I'm not even sure the rules support that. Also, you couldn't sacrifice lorwyn-goats to the Pentavus then.
17:49:48 <shachaf> Do you mean "a creature named Pentavus"?
17:49:51 <tswett> Use bits of string to keep track.
17:50:00 <tswett> shachaf: no, I mean Pentavus.
17:51:12 <tswett> Yeah, lay one end of the string on a Pentavite and the other end on its Pentavus.
17:51:36 <zzo38> It could say "on the permanent that created this token" if you want to clarify but yes you will need to keep track.
17:53:29 <b_jonas> zzo38: no way. "on the permanent that created this token" would be disastrous because it's no longer clear it's linked to the first ability or how it even works if that penatvite was created as a copy (eg. by a populate ability)
17:55:04 <zzo38> Then it would be placed on the permanent with the populate ability (if it is a permanent that still exists). Also you can sacrifice it and do nothing if the permanent that created it is now gone. Although, writing "{1}, Sacrifice this creature: Put a +1/+1 counter on ~." could be worked too yes, I suppose. I am not sure if rule support it or not
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17:55:38 <quintopia> zzo38: what is something a lot of people enjoy doing that you would NEVER do?
17:56:26 <zzo38> I can't think of any thing else that a lot of people do but I don't.
17:56:38 <tswett> I'm pretty sure the rules do support this... I feel like I saw a real card that used this sort of thing.
17:57:18 <tswett> `unidecode Saint Petersburg
17:57:19 <HackEgo> [U+0053 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER S] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+0069 LATIN SMALL LETTER I] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0050 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER P] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S
17:57:29 <tswett> `unidecode Saint Petersburg
17:57:30 <HackEgo> [U+0053 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER S] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+0069 LATIN SMALL LETTER I] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0050 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER P] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S
17:57:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think you can refer to the identity of the card that gives an ability only if the ability that gives the ability is a continuous one, like on Blazing Torch
17:57:56 -!- ybden has joined.
17:58:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: what if the token is copied by a Clone?
17:58:30 <zzo38> quintopia: It is possible I could write fiction I don't know
17:58:47 <tswett> Oh yeah, Blazing Torch is this sort of thing.
17:58:54 <tswett> My answer to quintopia's question would be smoking tobacco.
17:59:13 <b_jonas> zzo38: I for one think the way pentavus works is the best. They can integrate with any Penatvite, including crib swapped babies, not only Pentavites created by them. Much simpler.
17:59:24 <zzo38> b_jonas: Then nothing created it, so my proposed version would do nothing if you sacrifice the Clone.
17:59:50 <b_jonas> that's the one I was looking fro
17:59:59 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes I think that does work, it can even work with other permanents with the Pentavite subtype (including ones with changeling)
18:00:14 <b_jonas> Hankyu is the best example for a continuous effect that grants an ability that refers to the permanent with the ability with that effect
18:00:14 <shachaf> zzo38 writes fiction. Haven't you read danddreclist?
18:00:37 <b_jonas> I just couldn't recall its name
18:00:41 <zzo38> And it mean you can use Artificial Evolution to modify it
18:00:49 <b_jonas> (it's not a good card, mind you)
18:01:08 <quintopia> shachaf: i have but i don't remember what it is
18:01:10 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes there is that. I don't know how much other fiction I would really write, or how many books in general I would write.
18:01:24 <quintopia> shachaf: was it ideas for campaigns or documenting past campaigns?
18:01:31 <zzo38> Although smoking is also something I would probably never do
18:02:20 <quintopia> smoking is decreasingly popular anyway. even vaping seems no more popular than cigarettes were not long ago
18:03:10 <zzo38> Yes I know that too, that is why I did not mention it at first; it isn't so popular in more recent times
18:03:20 <b_jonas> is smoking decreasing really? I thought it decreased until the 2000s but now it's sort of stagnating
18:03:55 <zzo38> Another thing I am unlikely to do is to carry a cellular phone with touch screen and whatever
18:04:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: the touch screen is just half of what bothers me
18:04:44 <zzo38> Why do you want to know what is something a lot of people enjoy but I don't?
18:04:48 <b_jonas> about those phones that is
18:05:02 <zzo38> It is to me also just half of what bothers me though
18:05:44 <shachaf> zzo38: Why wouldn't you carry a cellular phone with touch screen and whatever?
18:05:48 <b_jonas> I'll have to find a good traditional mobile phone for my grandmother and eventually (possibly only a few years later) for myself. And it's getting increasingly difficult.
18:06:07 <zzo38> I can use a landline phone.
18:06:36 <shachaf> zzo38: Only when you're on land.
18:06:38 <quintopia> http://pepesnonsmokingpartytimelounge.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Smoking-rates.jpg seems to still be declining
18:07:28 <b_jonas> quintopia: that's for the US
18:07:41 <b_jonas> I'm more interested about Europe, and the urbanized parts
18:07:44 <quintopia> zzo38: mainly because i wondered on the probability you would consider writing a novel. i know a lot of people who like writing.
18:08:21 <zzo38> I don't know what is the probability that I would consider writing a novel. It is very difficult for me to answer, but I am more likely to write a computer program anyways.
18:08:50 <int-e> "Smoking is rising alarmingly in Austria; the Eurobarometer found an increase of smoking prevalence in Austria from 31% (2006) to 33% (2012)." (sigh)
18:08:54 <quintopia> b_jonas: dropping everywhere but russia: http://www.iea.org.uk/sites/default/files/smoking-rates-oecd.jpg
18:09:08 <shachaf> zzo38: What if it was a novel computer program?
18:09:18 <zzo38> How would that be?
18:10:14 <lambdabot> *** "novel" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
18:10:14 <lambdabot> adj 1: original and of a kind not seen before; "the computer
18:10:14 <lambdabot> produced a completely novel proof of a well-known
18:10:14 <lambdabot> theorem" [syn: {fresh}, {new}, {novel}]
18:10:30 <shachaf> As we know, computer programs are proofs.
18:11:18 <b_jonas> quintopia: that's the change in period 1990 to 2010. smoking was certainly declining between 1990 and 2000, I know that.
18:11:33 <zzo38> O, that's how it is. Yes certainly possibly it can be
18:12:04 <zzo38> How do I know if the program is similar to other one or not? I do not necessarily know, because I wrote it independently.
18:12:05 <quintopia> (there's no more recent data for all of europe or the world readily available)
18:12:17 <quintopia> but there is this: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zbX7pcC-glo/TzW7zTA7n4I/AAAAAAAAA24/fXpONiMaO8Y/s1600/Smoking+obesity.JPG
18:12:30 <int-e> "One reason for this may be because Austria is one of the last EU countries where the minimum age for purchasing tobacco is 16 years of age. In 2006, state revenues from sales to minors amounted to €60.5 billion -- a breath-taking sum of money." -- brilliant word choice near the end.
18:12:32 <quintopia> looks like people are turning in their cigarettes for food
18:13:10 <b_jonas> int-e: oh, there might be a point in that
18:13:37 <b_jonas> in Hungary, these days it's actually enforced that people under 18 can't buy tobacco (they can still smoke, but they can't buy it)
18:14:00 <b_jonas> and the same is enforced about alcohol
18:14:21 <b_jonas> I'm not sure when exactly that started, after 2000 or before
18:14:33 <b_jonas> there's of course still tons of ways around it
18:17:15 <b_jonas> eg. since a few months ago, Blaha Lujza tér actually has a nice huge banner next to the McDonalds that buying or selling cigarettes without tax stickers is illegal, advertising to everyone the exact spot where you can meet the shady people who sell untaxed tobacco when the policemen don't happen to be around
18:17:53 <b_jonas> there's a few other spots in the city, like Bosnyák tér, but there aren't many, so the prominent banner helps a lot to anyone who's looking for that sort of thing.
18:21:19 <b_jonas> I laughed hard when they put up that banner.
18:21:42 <tromp> thx for the commits. you've been real busy:)
18:23:00 <int-e> still haven't figured out why the self-distributive law actually works out in the end
18:23:14 <tromp> there's one big mystery in your laver2.lam though
18:23:19 <int-e> I guess I could read the literature.
18:23:52 <tromp> i wld expect f_a^{mx-b}(a-1)
18:24:17 <tromp> where you have f_a^{mxb)(0)
18:24:23 <int-e> mx * b = -b (mod mx+1)
18:24:53 <int-e> (and mx+1 = 2^n is a multiple of the period of the f_a thing)
18:26:22 <tromp> aha; that's cute! but why (0) instead of (a-1) ?
18:27:12 <tromp> oh, the code actually uses a-1, just the comment is wrong
18:28:44 <int-e> because mx - b = -b-1 (mod 2^n), but I'm computing -b (mod 2^n), so I need to go one more step back in the iteration.
18:29:04 <int-e> no, it uses 0: (\f\x. x)
18:29:34 <int-e> the pred is part of the implementation of f_a
18:30:32 <int-e> (context if anybody else cares: https://github.com/tromp/AIT/blob/master/laver2.lam )
18:33:46 <tromp> i need to convince myself that that all recursion is founded:)
18:34:24 <int-e> have you seen the haskell program?
18:34:56 <int-e> it may be easier to reason about... and to play around with
18:35:11 <tromp> i ran it once; didn't study source yet
18:35:41 * int-e will go for a walk while it's still light outside, see you later
18:38:54 <tromp> i shld call my mom:-)
18:43:13 <\oren\> yay, pressing backspace no longer causes a segmentation fault!
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18:43:36 <zzo38> \oren\: In what program is that?
18:43:42 -!- boily has quit (Quit: NOBODY CHICKEN).
18:43:48 <\oren\> I'm writing a text editor
18:44:21 <b_jonas> \oren\: great! I'd like one as well
18:45:22 <b_jonas> I'd like a good text editor, but creating one would be very difficult. I was thinking about it, and there are lots of difficult parts. I might still try at some point, but not yet.
18:45:50 <zzo38> I think vim is mostly good
18:46:07 <\oren\> I started by writing a string library and my own nih version of ncurses
18:46:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: I can tell what I really don't like in vim if someone wants a rant.
18:47:02 <zzo38> OK you can say. (There are a few thing I also don't like on vim but I think it is mostly good)
18:47:46 <b_jonas> (it's things emacs has got right, but I also don't like emacs)
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18:48:27 <zzo38> I think many things built-in doesn't need to be it can use external programs instead and implement macros to execute them.
18:49:07 <b_jonas> What I really don't like is how it treats newlines specially, so I can't place my cursor on a newline. This limitation implies you have to use lots of extra commands to be able to do everything:
18:49:53 <b_jonas> you have a separate i and a to be able to insert before or after a character, p and P to put before or after the cursor, lots of crazy movements to be able to yank any substring, etc.
18:50:15 <b_jonas> There's also the line-wise and inclusive movements and line-wise yank-puts that I don't like, which is somewhat similar.
18:51:09 <myname> i and a would most likely be there even if you can select a newline
18:51:09 <b_jonas> In emacs, you can just put the cursor on any character or past the last character, and then insert or put before that character, or delete between any two cursor positions, and this means you can do anything after you learn a few basic commands.
18:51:20 <myname> just because of I and A
18:51:58 <b_jonas> I like how in vim there are lots of extra commands to be able to do things more conveniently, but still, I'd like to be able to do things with very few commands as a beginner, rather than having to learn lots of extra commands because of stupid limitations forced on me.
18:52:53 <myname> i like vim having kind of a grammar
18:54:09 <b_jonas> As a particular example, consider how backspacing characters works in emacs. To backspace characters right to left from the cursor from any point in the line other than the end, you press X repeatedly. To backspace characters from the end of the line, you have your cursor on the last character of the line, then press x repeatedly, where x normally deletes characters ahead of you from left to right, but in this case it works backwards. It's mind-screwing.
18:54:47 <FireFly> b_jonas: I don't see how "crazy movements for yanking" relates to not being able to move atop a newline
18:59:01 <b_jonas> FireFly: that's mostly about the inclusive-exclusive and linewise stuff. my cursor is inside a non-empty line, 3 characters from the end. how do I yank characters up to before the newline? you can press y3l or y$ despite that 3l or $ wouldn't actually move to the newline, it would move to before it.
18:59:58 <b_jonas> how do you cut characters up to the end of the line including the newline? It's dv+ right? you wouldn't know if you didn't read that crazy stuff from the manual in detail like I do.
19:00:08 <b_jonas> but these are the easy ones where there's a movement
19:00:27 <ybden> Hmm, what does v+ do?
19:00:30 <b_jonas> if there's no suitable movement, normally you select a range by marking one end with mb then yank with d`b
19:01:15 <b_jonas> ybden: dunno, vi magic. you're not supposed to know, because vi doesn't work like that. you have to like read the manual for years to be able to figure out basic stuff like this. it's not like learning 50 simple commands and being able to do everything.
19:01:22 <b_jonas> FireFly: that doesn't yank the newline, does it?
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19:01:28 <FireFly> Since visual-mode allows me to select the newline at the end of the line
19:01:40 <b_jonas> if there's no suitable movement, normally you select a range by marking one end with mb then yank with d`b -- if you want to yank to the end of a line, this doesn't work, because you can't mark a newline
19:01:43 <FireFly> it seems to when I tried it no
19:02:08 <b_jonas> FireFly: no, but v+y works I think
19:02:35 <FireFly> I get the same behaviour if I v$d or v+d
19:02:40 <ybden> b_jonas: v$d/y does indeed delete/yank the line
19:02:53 <b_jonas> FireFly: v$y lets you select up to the newline, and yank before it, because in visual mode $ actually lets you move to the newline, which you aren't normally allowed to do,
19:03:06 <b_jonas> and v+y lets you yank including the newline just like yv$ does
19:04:30 <FireFly> I don't get the behaviour you describe when I v$y
19:04:42 <b_jonas> Another example, this one about acting on a whole line with operators
19:05:45 <b_jonas> To indent this line and the next one (two lines together) you press >2> right? easy peasy. How do you indent two lines by three places? 3>2> you'd think? no good, that doesn't work. >2>2. doesn't work either.
19:06:14 <b_jonas> > just doesn't accept a repeat count, no matter what you do, because it applies the repeat count to the range
19:06:16 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:35: parse error on input ‘,’
19:07:11 <b_jonas> I have NO FUCKING IDEA HOW I CAN INDENT WITH A NUMERICAL REPEAT COUNT SHORT OF qq>2>q2@q
19:07:13 <zzo38> The indentation command don't work so well so I use my own
19:08:27 <myname> there are a lot of configs that mark the lines you just indebted
19:08:34 <myname> so you can just > again
19:08:35 <b_jonas> I would like a vim where all the movement commands are strictly character-based exclusive, and you could put the cursor to any newline (not just those in empty lines) and one past the end of the file.
19:09:06 <b_jonas> myname: oh right, Vj3> actually works
19:09:29 <ybden> Hmm, what for putting it past the end of the file? Filling a selection with characters?
19:10:28 <myname> b_jonas: go file a pull request on neovim
19:10:34 <b_jonas> ybden: what? it's the same as why you want it at the end of a line. to be able to insert characters anywhere (even the end of the file) with i or put characters anywhere with P or to be able to yank up to anywhere (possibly including the last character of the file too)
19:11:15 <b_jonas> myname: I'm not sure that can even be implemented. don't vim commands sort of assume that the cursor can't be at the eol of a non-empty line and some would just segfault or something if it is?
19:11:25 <ybden> b_jonas: Oh, I misinterpreted that as some number of characters after the EOF
19:11:42 <myname> b_jonas: you can check for it :p
19:13:08 <b_jonas> myname: no thanks. editor, terminal emulator, shell, those are the kind of programs that I want really stable and never segfault on me or have bugs. and this includes I compile urxvt without a perl interpreter embedded in it, unlike everyone else, because the right way to make a terminal emulator stable and never segfault on me is to make it small rather than to put a whole perl interpreter and all sorts of "plugins" in the same fucking process.
19:13:30 <b_jonas> If I want fancy additions, I put them in external processes, like text filters invoked with the | command for an editor.
19:14:22 <myname> what stuff can you do with plugins on urxvt? :o
19:15:11 <zzo38> I agree to use external program for many kind of things, vim can do that too but also has built-in stuff
19:15:34 <b_jonas> myname: I've no idea? people try to link stuff in every program. it happens at my workplace too. somehow people think that everything absolutely must happen in the same process, so that a memory corruption bug can cause bugs elsewhere in whole process and you can never localize what caused it,
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19:16:15 <b_jonas> and somehow also that writing temporary files is somehow bad and you have to patch everything to be able to put the data in memory instead of into a temporary file.
19:16:31 <b_jonas> I come from the unix world and don't understand how either of these ideas work.
19:16:36 <zzo38> I also wanted to make a terminal emulator. It doesn't need perl interpreter or toolbar or whatever, although I should implement all of the control codes.
19:17:33 <b_jonas> zzo38: terminal emulator is one of those programs I definitely don't want to write, even if I have lots of free time and reimplement lots of stuff, because urxvt is good enough. Sure, I patch urxvt, or debug it, but those are both rare compared to how much it already gets just right.
19:17:41 <myname> there's this terminal emulator for osx that can display pictures
19:18:21 <FireFly> zzo38: you could look at LeoNerd's libvterm library
19:18:38 <FireFly> it has very good control code coverage in my experience
19:18:40 <zzo38> Xterm can display pictures too, by using Sixel graphics.
19:18:43 <b_jonas> There was one bug in urxvt I had to debug, until it turned out that it manifested because I build with strange compilation options. That sort of thing seems to happen a lot in my workplace too, where the programs we develop crash or have bugs in ways that manifest for me much more frequently than for others, because of how I use the programs.
19:19:11 <b_jonas> myname: I don't want that sort of thing in a terminal emulator. I want the terminal emulator to be small and stable.
19:19:23 <zzo38> There are a few control sequences that I deliberately do not want to implement, but I would implement most of the xterm stuff and also a few DEC VT stuff that xterm does not support.
19:19:36 <myname> there's this one feature i think is neat: scrolling in time
19:20:32 <HackEgo> .ACTION swats myname -----###.
19:20:41 <b_jonas> zzo38: yeah, there's a few features I am considering to deliberately disable in urxvt too
19:20:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: there's one I already conditionally disabled, namely mouse support
19:21:08 -!- Akaibu has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
19:21:12 <zzo38> So I would also have it to display pictures using Sixel graphics. (There are other protocols that may be used by some terminal emulators for display pictures but I don't put any of those)
19:21:14 <b_jonas> s/mouse support/application mouse support/
19:22:25 <zzo38> I would make it to change the mouse cursor shape to XC_arrow when application mouse support is selected so that you can easily tell the difference, if you hold shift it changes back to XC_xterm so that you can still use it for the ordinary function too
19:24:35 <b_jonas> anyway, despite all the tiny negatives, urxvt works really well, and I use it a lot, and, I know this is calling fate against me, but still I dare to do it: urxvt has never crashed for me. never.
19:24:39 <b_jonas> not even when I patched it.
19:25:02 <b_jonas> I know it's dangerous to say that, because I recently called out how 7zip never crashes, then a day after that is crashed.
19:25:11 <b_jonas> but I'm confident I can do that for urxvt.
19:26:06 <zzo38> Also I would support only the X bitmap fonts and no antialiased fonts or other formats.
19:26:56 <notfowl> Where can I get an SSH acct
19:27:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: currently I use urxvt with X bitmap fonts, but I think eventually I may want to display graymap fonts in it, because graymap font can be more readable than a bitmap one
19:27:32 <zzo38> Also many resource settings are not needed because it can instead be done by adding one resource containing initialization string which is executed when the terminal resets; any escape codes in there are parsed to set the terminal settings.
19:28:30 <b_jonas> I am making my font bigmap because it's easier to create and use, not because bitmap is somehow inherently better than graymap, I don't know about \oren\
19:31:12 <zzo38> I think bitmap fonts is better in most cases
19:31:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: you're not using some sort of ultra-high resolution monitor, are you?
19:32:14 <b_jonas> as in, one with resolution higher than 150 pixels per inch
19:32:50 <b_jonas> if you were using a 360 dpi monitor, then I could understand saying that bitmap fonts are better
19:33:04 <zzo38> It isn't ultra-high resolution
19:34:41 <zzo38> It is 96 pixels per inch it looks like
19:35:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: right, so normal resolution.
19:37:29 <zzo38> Yes and I am using xterm with the default "fixed" bitmap font.
19:37:55 <b_jonas> zzo38: didn't you have some sort of modified font?
19:38:30 <tswett> "At the beginning of your upkeep, if you cast Santhon Airood, sacrifice it unless you exile it, and put it onto the battlefield. Then destroy it."
19:39:12 <tswett> That's from a RoboRosewater card.
19:41:53 <zzo38> tswett: It is no sense, I think.
19:42:26 <tswett> "If you cast Santhon Airood" is an interesting condition. I'm trying to figure out what it means.
19:42:30 <b_jonas> tswett: what object are you destroying?
19:42:41 <tswett> The object that you put onto the battlefield.
19:42:51 <b_jonas> oh, a RoboRosewater card. that explains it.
19:43:11 <b_jonas> tswett: I think "If you cast Santhon Airood" does makes sense. it's the "Then destroy it." which I don't get.
19:43:24 <b_jonas> tswett: there are cards with conditions like "if you cast it" for when it etb
19:43:37 <tromp> int-e: i committed tiny improvements, size 212 now
19:43:39 <b_jonas> tswett: Phage is the famousest
19:43:53 <tswett> You either sacrifice or exile the card. Then you put the sacrificed or exiled card onto the battlefield. Then you put the card that you put onto the battlefield into your graveyard.
19:44:10 <b_jonas> tswett: oh, that's not how I read it
19:44:48 <b_jonas> tswett: I thought you either exile the card and put otb, or else sacrifice it but then don't put otb.
19:45:01 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:45:16 <b_jonas> it doesn't make much sense in any way
19:45:35 <b_jonas> oh, do you guys remember those random recipes mentioned at some point in this channel?
19:45:40 <b_jonas> they were so funny I lmao on them
19:45:49 -!- heroux has joined.
19:45:51 <b_jonas> I wonder if I can find them
19:46:07 <tswett> I should be able to find those.
19:46:08 <b_jonas> does hackego have a log search?
19:46:13 <b_jonas> they're certainly in the logs
19:46:20 <tswett> https://gist.github.com/nylki/1efbaa36635956d35bcc
19:46:20 <b_jonas> but I don't have a local copy of the logs I think
19:46:36 <b_jonas> `slashlearn recipe/Random food recipes at https://gist.github.com/nylki/1efbaa36635956d35bcc
19:46:47 <b_jonas> tswett: thanks, that was quickl
19:46:52 <tswett> "In a mixing bowl, beat butter until smooth. Drain on both sides of the refrigerator."
19:47:15 <b_jonas> yes, they're still very funny
19:47:35 <b_jonas> "In medium saucepan, beat egg whites in a large bowl.)"
19:47:59 <Moon__> sounds like the worst cookbook ever
19:48:03 <tswett> "Cover and simmer for about 10 hours, stirring constantly."
19:48:37 <Moon__> *goes back to document on a circuit based cellular automa8
19:50:00 -!- Caesura|Away has changed nick to Caesura.
19:52:40 <b_jonas> Moon__: it's hilarious to me because it's good with syntax but SO badly screwing up food semantics that even I can see how horribly not working any of those recipes are
19:52:43 <tswett> 1 teaspoon salt. 1 teaspoon salt. Salt and pepper, for leaves. 2 cups Grand Marnier. 3 cups water. 1/2 cup flour, softened. 1/2 cup microwave oil.
19:52:53 <b_jonas> ``` cp -vi wisdom/{recipe,cookbook}
19:52:56 <HackEgo> `wisdom/recipe' -> `wisdom/cookbook'
19:53:09 <tswett> 3 pounds canned thinly sliced salt.
19:53:59 <tswett> 3 pounds meating chile pepper. Whipped topping. Cream, chopped, sweetened, softened, drained, sliced.'
19:54:17 <b_jonas> It doesn't understand how you usually want to stick with either salty ingredients or sweet ones but not both (there are lots of exceptions, but you don't just mix everything at random), it doesn't understand how amounts works so it often tries to take a kilogram of salt with a gram of vegetable,
19:54:58 <b_jonas> and it doesn't understand how the items in the ingredient lists should be at least related to the items you mention in the instructions.
19:54:59 <zzo38> How long do you have to put the oil in microwave though?
19:55:11 <Moon__> so whats makeing this stuff up?
19:55:46 <zzo38> And how much salt and pepper, for leaves?
19:56:06 <zzo38> It says "1 teaspoon salt" twice possibly due to you need for two different mixes.
19:57:21 <tswett> Moon__: a neural net. Karpathy's famous char-rnn program.
19:57:32 <tswett> zzo38: however much the leaves require.
19:57:46 <tswett> b_jonas: I actually thought it did pretty well with amounts.
19:59:05 <pikhq> I don't even think it's "microwaved oil". It's 1/2 cup of microwave oil.
19:59:11 <pikhq> I don't generally oil microwaves.
20:01:27 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:02:27 <tswett> Microwave oil is that oily stuff that you use to heat things in the microwave if they're not normally microwavable.
20:03:39 <zzo38> I once saw in a book mention a recipe for a Chinese food on a container of bean curd. Other than chicken and bean curd it did not give the amount for any of the ingredients. Also the ingredient list includes "gourmet powder" which is not mentioned in the rest of the recipe. There are also two items not listed in the ingredients which are used later on, which are monosodium and a duck.
20:04:17 <tswett> Maybe "gourmet powder" means MSG.
20:06:06 <b_jonas> I think the cookbook guy is funny because it doesn't seem to have any concept of hardware conservation (fancy people call that "object permanence"), and all babies learn the concept of hardware conservation way before they can form two-word sentences, even in humorous unrealistic fiction with talking babies, because it's such a basic princible you can't have common grounds without it.
20:07:58 <tswett> I think it's probably pretty much incapable of remembering what ingredients it's already mentioned.
20:08:49 <b_jonas> tswett: yeah. and that applies not only to the ingredient list or the instructions, but also the title and header (including title) and the footers
20:11:02 <Moon__> im working on something: https://docs.google.com/document/d/181jLmLri6JhxXStLCDOSMt6iSsDln6z9MBv8UlYOFZE/edit?usp=sharing
20:11:29 <b_jonas> someone should add the best url(s) to wisdom/RoboRosewater
20:12:26 -!- augur has joined.
20:12:49 <b_jonas> a "BASIC SAUCE" made of over 30 ingredients, 6 of which is salt
20:12:55 <b_jonas> I think salt is its favourite ingredient
20:13:47 <b_jonas> "stirring constantly overnight" -- hehe
20:14:04 <Moon__> whats the link to see this maddness
20:14:12 <HackEgo> Random food recipes at https://gist.github.com/nylki/1efbaa36635956d35bcc
20:14:24 <int-e> tromp: ah, you swapped the arguments, should've tried that
20:15:24 <tromp> also swapped the two versions laver*.lam
20:15:44 <int-e> yes, which made the diff a bit useless...
20:15:44 <tromp> since mine didnt do much yet
20:15:54 <b_jonas> do you think I can just buy Self-raspoted coriander Ironicle in a shop, or do I have to raspot it myself?
20:15:55 <tromp> sorry about that:(
20:16:17 <int-e> I just didn't want to interfere with your work
20:17:01 <b_jonas> "Fill the cacaof and or steaming, or should be for a mortar."
20:17:12 <tromp> feel free to modify laver.lam
20:17:28 <b_jonas> "NOTE: This form of plastic wrap can be furts of hotters and soak breads."
20:18:09 <tromp> btw, row 10 of the 8x8 laver table seems to go like 0 1 8 9 0 1 8 9 ...
20:18:14 <Moon__> https://docs.google.com/document/d/181jLmLri6JhxXStLCDOSMt6iSsDln6z9MBv8UlYOFZE/edit?usp=sharing
20:18:21 <Moon__> im deviseing a esolang there
20:18:26 <Moon__> feel free to leave comments
20:19:15 <tromp> but it's nice that trhe search can be started from the smallest laver table
20:20:24 <int-e> tromp: oh it seems I broke the pretty-printing part of my program... tsk
20:21:45 <tromp> i noticed something weird about the blc compiler
20:22:09 <tromp> if i add a def: four = two tow; after the one for two, then the size increases by 4 bits
20:22:19 <b_jonas> the humorist Hofi had a show where he made fun of cooking TV shows. He brings up a case where the video shows the cook taking a pan from the cupboard, the audio says "Take a greased pan", and the video cuts to showing a greased pan, saying something to the effect of "what a good idea! I'll store the pan in the cupboard pre-greased too."
20:22:27 <tromp> even though four is not used and should be stripped out
20:22:37 <b_jonas> that's a milder case of this lack of object permanence
20:22:37 <\oren\> Sprinkle each zucchini; add cheese, salt, flour, salt and butter. Add to coat with butter; cook. Add sugar, salt, and almonds.
20:23:04 <int-e> tromp: it can still affect other beta reduction ("inlining") decisions
20:23:13 <b_jonas> these recipes would TOTALLY just use a greased pan, and wouldn't even bother taking a pan off the cupboard or announcing "take". they'd just say "in a greased pan".
20:23:39 -!- rdococ has quit (Quit: gtg).
20:23:41 <int-e> (since references to everything defined earlier will look bigger)
20:24:38 <zzo38> Are you going to cook any of these things?
20:25:16 <b_jonas> at least I think it was Hofi… maybe it was someone else
20:25:45 <\oren\> I'm working on my editor
20:26:02 <b_jonas> oh right, you were here, you did mention an editor
20:26:08 <\oren\> now it segfaults when I press down down backspace
20:26:20 <b_jonas> then I told why I don't like vim
20:27:47 <b_jonas> what's the best url(s) for RoboRosewater? if you search, you find lots of references and opinions and twitter posts, but no specific original stuff
20:28:51 <zzo38> This RoboRosewater works for me https://mobile.twitter.com/roborosewater it also contains a link to the forum which also contains stuff
20:29:09 <b_jonas> `fetch https://gist.githubusercontent.com/nylki/1efbaa36635956d35bcc/raw/4fac7a2b87d7b4e042c3117dea11b2993239a964/neural%2520net%2520cooking%2520recipes.txt
20:29:16 <HackEgo> 2016-05-08 19:29:11 URL:https://gist.githubusercontent.com/nylki/1efbaa36635956d35bcc/raw/4fac7a2b87d7b4e042c3117dea11b2993239a964/neural%2520net%2520cooking%2520recipes.txt [83573/83573] -> "neural%20net%20cooking%20recipes.txt" [1]
20:29:36 <HackEgo> !\.´ \ advice \ bin \ canary \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ neural%20net%20cooking%20recipes.txt \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ theorems \ tmflry \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
20:29:44 <HackEgo> 8ballreplies \ Complaints.mp3 \ UnicodeData.txt \ WordData \ autowelcome_status \ awesome \ cat \ conscripts \ construct_grams.pl \ delvs-master \ dict-words \ esolangs.txt \ esolangs.txt.sorted \ hello \ lua \ maimer \ maimery \ maze \ nothp \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ scapegoats \ sedtest \ units.dat \ usercmds
20:29:58 <int-e> tromp: uh, you destroyed the 16.
20:30:11 <b_jonas> ``` mkdir share/recipe && mv -vi "neural%20net%20cooking%20recipes.txt" share/recipe/recpies.txt
20:30:15 <HackEgo> mkdir: cannot create directory `share/recipe': File exists
20:30:48 <HackEgo> File: `share/recipe' \ Size: 4096 Blocks: 8 IO Block: 1024 directory \ Device: 12h/18dInode: 927686 Links: 2 \ Access: (0755/drwxr-xr-x) Uid: ( 5000/ UNKNOWN) Gid: ( 0/ UNKNOWN) \ Access: 2016-05-08 19:30:11.000000000 +0000 \ Modify: 2016-05-08 19:30:10.000000000 +0000 \ Change: 2016-05-08 19:30:10.000000000 +000
20:31:11 <b_jonas> ```mv -vi "neural%20net%20cooking%20recipes.txt" share/recipe/recpies.txt
20:31:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ``mv: not found
20:31:13 <b_jonas> ``` mv -vi "neural%20net%20cooking%20recipes.txt" share/recipe/recpies.txt
20:31:16 <HackEgo> `neural%20net%20cooking%20recipes.txt' -> `share/recipe/recpies.txt'
20:31:34 <int-e> tromp: anyway, the difference is that (\two (\x. x x) two) two becomes (\two (two two)) two instead of (\x. x x) two. But the (\x. x x) should be (\x. x x x)
20:32:19 <tromp> oops, lemme fix that
20:32:37 <b_jonas> ``` perl -e 'local$/=\999;seek STDIN,rand((-s STDIN)-299),0 or die;print<STDIN>;' < share/recipe/recipes.txt
20:32:39 <HackEgo> bash: share/recipe/recipes.txt: No such file or directory
20:33:32 <b_jonas> ``` mv -vi share/recipe/rec{pi,ipi}es.txt
20:33:34 <HackEgo> `share/recipe/recpies.txt' -> `share/recipe/recipies.txt'
20:33:39 <b_jonas> ``` perl -e 'local$/=\999;seek STDIN,rand((-s STDIN)-299),0 or die;print<STDIN>;' < share/recipe/recipes.txt
20:33:40 <HackEgo> bash: share/recipe/recipes.txt: No such file or directory
20:33:47 <b_jonas> ``` mv -vi share/recipe/rec{ipi,ip}es.txt
20:33:49 <b_jonas> ``` perl -e 'local$/=\999;seek STDIN,rand((-s STDIN)-299),0 or die;print<STDIN>;' < share/recipe/recipes.txt
20:33:50 <HackEgo> `share/recipe/recipies.txt' -> `share/recipe/recipes.txt'
20:33:51 <HackEgo> to a rack. \ Meanwhile, combine all at a time, bacon the eggs on serving platesly. Sprinkle the \ pepper to taste and set aside. And toppings in the oven and brown flavors of \ flour, and the olive oil if needed. Remove the cake. Add lemon \ juice, flour and sugar. Remove from oven and refrigerate at least 4 hours, or \ until ce
20:33:56 <b_jonas> ``` perl -e 'local$/=\999;seek STDIN,rand((-s STDIN)-299),0 or die;print<STDIN>;' < share/recipe/recipes.txt
20:33:57 <HackEgo> ine \ 1 sm Green onions; sliced \ 2 ts Instant cloves \ 1/3 c Chopped onion \ 1/2 c Water; or margarine \ 4 Cloves garlic; chopped \ 3 tb Oil flour \ 1 c Peanuts; crushed \ 1 c Cooked corn chopped \ 1 1/2 c Honey \ 1/4 c Chopped coriander \ 1/4 c Walnut, cut into 2 cups \ 2 c Pa
20:34:13 <b_jonas> ``` perl -e 'local$/=\999;seek STDIN,rand((-s STDIN)-299),0 or die;print<STDIN>=~y/ \t/ /sr;' < share/recipe/recipes.txt
20:34:14 <HackEgo> 1/2 cup bowl, \ invert onto bottom of dough onto a weighright fryer. \ \ Serve in bite-sing four sauce. Steam the rice into a bowl combine the butter. \ Reduce the heat to low, adding more sugar and pepper. Stir in the \ flour, baking soda and pepper. Stir together, salt, and let place for \ about 10 minutes. \ \ Add the beans and sal
20:34:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: randomrecipe: not found
20:35:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: recipe: not found
20:35:06 <Moon__> i was contacted by lambda bot with a message: butterfingers
20:35:22 <int-e> `` shuf -n 3 share/recipe/recipes.txt
20:35:24 <HackEgo> Title: CARROT CACOA CHILI CHICKEN \ 2 c Canned cornmeal \ 2/3 c Butter or margarine
20:35:24 <b_jonas> ``` echo $'#!/bin/sh\n''exec perl -e '\''local$/=\999;seek STDIN,rand((-s STDIN)-299),0 or die;print<STDIN>=~y/ \t/ /sr;'\'' < share/recipe/recipes.txt' > bin/recipe && chmod a+x bin/recipe
20:35:26 <Moon__> someone sent me that message >_>
20:35:30 <HackEgo> dough over the pan. Combine the \ pears, and lemon juice over the first cookie sheet. Garnish with the \ completely with melted butter, stirring, over low heat, uncovered \ for 3 minutes. Spoon a cookie sheet and bake in 375 degree oven for \ 40 minutes or until the meat is tender, turning after the chicken pieces is \ light brown. \ \ Ligh
20:35:31 <HackEgo> es, Also, \ Light in the hot potatoes of only excess. \ \ Source: "Whole" \ \ MMMMM \ \ MMMMM----- Recipe via Meal-Master (tm) v8.05 \ \ Title: HUNGARIAN SOUR CHERRY POT PHIG PART \ Categories: Desserts \ Yield: 6 Servings \ \ 2 c Sugar \ 2 lb Noother pineapples \ 1 sm Onion; chopped \ 2 cn Walnuts \ 2 Cloves garlic, minced \ 1
20:35:32 <HackEgo> t and then add the mustard seeds and dill well \ potatoes in fork and stir until the mixture is softened. Add the \ remaining ingredients. Add the sugar and blend well. \ Beat in half and stir until they are tender. \ \ From: desserts (Norma) Cholesterol 1996. Diviping the recipe formated by DetErre \ Harmlloupwy Posted by Canadian Mexennt A
20:37:34 <b_jonas> "bake in 375 oven for \ 40 minutes or until the meat is tender, turning after the chicken pieces is \ light brown." make sense
20:37:53 <b_jonas> that's from ALMOND MUSTARD
20:40:33 <b_jonas> although if the chicken pieces are into the paper towels to soften, then how do I see when they're light brown?
20:41:20 <int-e> I imagine that if you wait long enough you'll get all sorts of colors...
20:41:27 <b_jonas> It's funny when it uses words like "the remaining" which only make sense in first place if you do know hardware conservation.
20:42:47 <b_jonas> Ah I see, I bake it for 30 minutes in a medium skillet into the paper towels to soften, but then the oil is finely brown off the balls, and food color, and at that point I move them to the light good pot of the bowl, so they're no longer into paper towls
20:43:08 <b_jonas> They're in the greased 13x9" (3-quart) baking sheet
20:43:25 <b_jonas> no wait, maybe they're out onto a bowl instead
20:43:40 <b_jonas> both the cooking sheet and the bowl
20:44:04 <b_jonas> \oren\: now it segfaults at startup?
20:44:10 <ybden> Hmm, is this an actual recipe, or an esolang?
20:44:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Circuitrite]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46984 * Moon * (+239) if anyone wants to move data from the doc to here, please do so
20:44:13 <\oren\> is memmove even implemented properly???
20:44:26 <HackEgo> Random food recipes at https://gist.github.com/nylki/1efbaa36635956d35bcc
20:44:33 <tromp> afk for a walk myself
20:44:33 <b_jonas> \oren\: not on solaris, I hear
20:44:35 <ybden> b_jonas: Ah, thanks
20:45:13 <ybden> "CHINESE MEAT OF 2" <- this is somewhat worrisome
20:45:24 <b_jonas> ybden: it's not chef, in particular. chef does have object permanece, where ingredients are in bowls, you don't just put them into bowls or remove them from bowls, they're actually in the bowls and stay there until you do something to change that.
20:45:34 <int-e> it could be worse... chinese meat of four...
20:45:39 <b_jonas> ybden: recipe gives a random quote from it
20:45:52 <ybden> b_jonas: Ah, I see
20:46:12 <HackEgo> eel flour \ 1 tb Minced fresh green onion \ Sauce \ Salt & pepper \ \ Combine flour, cocoa and milk. \ Cook for 5 minutes, stirring often. Beat with all sides of the up and simmering well. Bake at 350\F8 \ depeed to directions, then immediately. \ \ MMMMM \ \ MMMMM----- Recipe via Meal-Master (tm) v8.05 \ \ Title: CATRICO'S & LEMON P
20:46:22 <HackEgo> d: 6 Servings \ \ 2 c Whole beans, chopped \ 2 tb Minced fresh celery \ -- drained \ 1 ts Vanilla extract \ 1 c Nonfat additional \ 2 c Peanut butter \ 4 Eggs \ 3/4 c Chopped celery \ 4 c Milk \ 1/3 c Unsweetened cocoa \ 2 lb Boneless chicken \ -pepper; seeded \ 2 tb Sour cream or flour \ 1/4 ts Dried parsley \ 1/2 ts Baking soda \
20:46:23 <\oren\> I type qwertyuiop, go to the u, and type backspace
20:46:36 <HackEgo> h \ baking sheet; add the beef plain,stock and a \ day little and pour off top. Spoon fat container. Place a little toasted \ of the mixture in the peanut butter until the flours is not be ablewhosed \ in the oil. Pour onto a bowl. Cut each piece into the oven. \ \ MMMMM \ \ MMMMM----- Recipe via Meal-Master (tm) v8.05 \ \ Title: GREEN B
20:47:02 <b_jonas> `learn RoboRosewater is generating random Magic: the Gathering cards, see https://mobile.twitter.com/roborosewater
20:47:04 <HackEgo> Learned 'roborosewater': RoboRosewater is generating random Magic: the Gathering cards, see https://mobile.twitter.com/roborosewater
20:47:56 <\oren\> which would imply it's copying it the other way
20:48:16 <b_jonas> hehe, http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/creativity/custom-card-creation/612057-generating-magic-cards-using-deep-recurrent-neural shows a card that has the chaos symbol used in a morph cost, as in Morph {B}{chaos}{G/W}
20:50:13 <b_jonas> that text says it's not a chaos symbol,
20:51:13 <\oren\> Ok, yeah, I called it the worng way around
20:51:46 <b_jonas> Hmm, could there be a card that cares specifically about spells or permanents with a hybrid mana symbol in their mana cost?
20:51:50 <b_jonas> Or would that be an un-card?
20:52:30 <zzo38> I think there could be such card, but no {B/B}
20:53:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: yeah, because there's no black-black guild
20:53:20 <int-e> "then put the *rest* of target creature card [...]"
20:53:57 <b_jonas> int-e: oh, that's like "then exile the pieces." on blacker lotus
20:54:16 <int-e> where did it learn that phrase? (also, "target creature card" should be rare...)
20:55:43 <b_jonas> int-e: it's not rare, lots of green or black card recyclers spells and black reanimators say "target creature card" in your graveyard
20:56:46 <b_jonas> `fetch http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/oracle/All%20Sets-2016-04-08.zip
20:56:51 <HackEgo> 2016-05-08 19:56:47 URL:http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/oracle/All%20Sets-2016-04-08.zip [708667/708667] -> "All Sets-2016-04-08.zip" [1]
20:57:04 <int-e> what about the last part... "Put a $n/$m $type token into play. Then put it into your graveyard."
20:57:07 <b_jonas> `mv -vi "All Sets-2016-04-08.zip" share/mtg/
20:57:08 <HackEgo> mv: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
20:57:26 <b_jonas> int-e: "last part" of what? I don't know the context
20:57:33 <Moon__> i made something diffrent: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Circuitrite
20:57:35 <b_jonas> ``` mv -vi "All Sets-2016-04-08.zip" share/mtg/
20:57:37 <HackEgo> `All Sets-2016-04-08.zip' -> `share/mtg/All Sets-2016-04-08.zip'
20:57:45 <int-e> b_jonas: your link, I'm still looking at that "reminder text"
20:58:13 <b_jonas> ``` cd share/mtg && 7z x All\ Sets-2016-04-08.zip
20:58:14 <HackEgo> bash: 7z: command not found
20:58:21 <b_jonas> ``` cd share/mtg && unzip All\ Sets-2016-04-08.zip
20:58:22 <HackEgo> bash: unzip: command not found
20:58:47 <b_jonas> ``` cd share/mtg && gunzip All\ Sets-2016-04-08.zip
20:58:49 <HackEgo> gzip: All Sets-2016-04-08.zip: unknown suffix -- ignored
20:58:56 <b_jonas> ``` cd share/mtg && zcat All\ Sets-2016-04-08.zip
20:58:57 <HackEgo> "Ach! Hans, Run!" \ 2RRGG \ Enchantment \ At the beginning of your upkeep, you may say "Ach! Hans, run! It's the . . ." and name a creature card. If you do, search your library for the named card, put it into play, then shuffle your library. That creature has haste. Remove it from the game at end of turn. \ UNH-R \ \ A Display of My Dark Power
20:59:07 <b_jonas> ``` cd share/mtg && zcat All\ Sets-2016-04-08.zip > allsets.txt
20:59:18 <b_jonas> ``` cd share/mtg && zcat All\ Sets-2016-04-08.zip > allsets-2016-04-08.txt
20:59:36 <int-e> I mean, that could be fun in decks with lots of triggered abilities, but is there anything like it out of the box (without relying on state-based effects ("all elfs get -1/-1") or triggers that kill (Aether Flash)))
20:59:39 <b_jonas> ``` cd share/mtg && rm -v allsets.txt && ln -s allsets-2016-04-08.txt allsets.txt
21:00:51 <int-e> Hmm, perhaps something that puts a 0/0 token into play by default and needs to be boosted...
21:02:58 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't think so, except maybe in un. There are I think things that put a token into play then remove or destrpy it later.
21:07:39 <b_jonas> ``` perl -00ne '/\A(?i)\Q$ARGV[0]/ and print' "Mighty Leap"
21:07:42 <HackEgo> Can't open Mighty Leap: No such file or directory.
21:07:48 <b_jonas> ``` perl -00ne '/\A(?i)\Q$ARGV[0]/ and print' /hackenv/share/mtg/allsets.txt "Mighty Leap"
21:07:52 <HackEgo> Can't open Mighty Leap: No such file or directory at -e line 1, <> chunk 16212. \ Mighty Leap \ 1W \ Instant \ Target creature gets +2/+2 and gains flying until end of turn. \ M11-C, M12-C, MM2-C, ORI-C, OGW-C, DDF-C, DDG-C, DDO-C
21:08:01 <b_jonas> ``` perl -00 -ne '/\A(?i)\Q$ARGV[0]/ and print' /hackenv/share/mtg/allsets.txt "Mighty Leap"
21:08:02 <HackEgo> Can't open Mighty Leap: No such file or directory at -e line 1, <> chunk 16212. \ Mighty Leap \ 1W \ Instant \ Target creature gets +2/+2 and gains flying until end of turn. \ M11-C, M12-C, MM2-C, ORI-C, OGW-C, DDF-C, DDG-C, DDO-C
21:08:13 <b_jonas> ``` perl -00 -ne '/\A(?i)\Q$ARGV[0]/ and print' /hackenv/share/mtg/allsets.txt -- "Mighty Leap"
21:08:14 <HackEgo> Can't open --: No such file or directory at -e line 1, <> chunk 16212. \ Can't open Mighty Leap: No such file or directory at -e line 1, <> chunk 16212.
21:08:54 <b_jonas> ``` perl -e 'open$I,"<","/hackenv/share/mtg/allsets.txt"or die;$/=""; while(<$I>){/\A(?i)\Q$ARGV[0]/ and print}' "Mighty Leap"
21:08:56 <HackEgo> Mighty Leap \ 1W \ Instant \ Target creature gets +2/+2 and gains flying until end of turn. \ M11-C, M12-C, MM2-C, ORI-C, OGW-C, DDF-C, DDG-C, DDO-C
21:09:11 <int-e> "3: until end of turn, $THIS becomes a Plant Wall creature that's attacking you." ... having attacking creatures outside of the combat phase could be fun.
21:10:20 <b_jonas> ``` echo $'#!/bin/sh\n'exec perl -e '\''open$I,"<","/hackenv/share/mtg/allsets.txt"or die;$/=""; while(<$I>){/\A(?i)\Q$ARGV[0]/ and print}'\'' "$1"' > bin/card-by-name && chmod a+x bin/card-by-name
21:10:33 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/card-by-name: 2: /hackenv/bin/card-by-name: Syntax error: ")" unexpected
21:10:36 <\oren\> WHY IS -1 > 3!!!?!?@?@!
21:10:38 <int-e> "destroy target creature until end of turn"
21:11:05 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec perl -e \open$I,"<","/hackenv/share/mtg/allsets.txt"or die;$/=""; while(<$I>){/\A(?i)\Q$ARGV[0]/ and print}' "$1"
21:11:26 <b_jonas> ``` echo $'#!/bin/sh\n''exec perl -e '\''open$I,"<","/hackenv/share/mtg/allsets.txt"or die;$/=""; while(<$I>){/\A(?i)\Q$ARGV[0]/ and print}'\'' "$1"' > bin/card-by-name && chmod a+x bin/card-by-name
21:11:41 <HackEgo> Mighty Leap \ 1W \ Instant \ Target creature gets +2/+2 and gains flying until end of turn. \ M11-C, M12-C, MM2-C, ORI-C, OGW-C, DDF-C, DDG-C, DDO-C
21:11:53 <HackEgo> Gigantiform \ 3GG \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Kicker {4} \ Enchant creature \ Enchanted creature has base power and toughness 8/8 and has trample. \ When Gigantiform enters the battlefield, if it was kicked, you may search your library for a card named Gigantiform, put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library. \ ZEN-R
21:11:58 <HackEgo> Gigadrowse \ U \ Instant \ Replicate {U} (When you cast this spell, copy it for each time you paid its replicate cost. You may choose new targets for the copies.) \ Tap target permanent. \ GPT-C
21:12:19 <HackEgo> Dizzy Spell \ U \ Instant \ Target creature gets -3/-0 until end of turn. \ Transmute {1}{U}{U} ({1}{U}{U}, Discard this card: Search your library for a card with the same converted mana cost as this card, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library. Transmute only as a sorcery.) \ RAV-C
21:12:26 <HackEgo> Trial \ WU \ Instant \ Return all creatures blocking or blocked by target creature to their owner's hand. \ [This is half of the split card Trial // Error.] \ DIS-U \ \ Trial // Error \ WU // UB \ Instant // Instant \ Return all creatures blocking or blocked by target creature to their owner's hand. // Counter target multicolored spell. \ DIS-U
21:13:49 <HackEgo> AEthersnipe \ 5U \ Creature -- Elemental \ 4/4 \ When AEthersnipe enters the battlefield, return target nonland permanent to its owner's hand. \ Evoke {1}{U}{U} (You may cast this spell for its evoke cost. If you do, it's sacrificed when it enters the battlefield.) \ LRW-C, CMD-C, MMA-C, MM2-C, DD2-C
21:14:10 <b_jonas> we can add more complicated search stuff later
21:15:23 <int-e> and finally "tap target creature or player"
21:16:02 <int-e> (tapped players can't attack)
21:16:11 <int-e> b_jonas: the twitter account
21:16:28 <b_jonas> "Righthaste" -- is that a real word?
21:16:50 <int-e> https://twitter.com/RoboRosewater
21:16:50 <b_jonas> ``` egrep -i righthaste share/mtg/allcards.txt
21:16:52 <HackEgo> egrep: share/mtg/allcards.txt: No such file or directory
21:17:02 <b_jonas> ``` egrep -i righthaste share/mtg/allsets.txt
21:17:31 <b_jonas> it has "Until end of turn." which reminds me to that triggered abilty zzo38 wrote
21:18:21 <b_jonas> "At the beginning of the first cleanup step each turn, if ~ is untapped."
21:18:55 <b_jonas> "Tromple,Mointainspalk" what
21:20:19 <b_jonas> int-e: yeah, "becomes a Plant Wall creature that's attacking you." is triply funny
21:20:55 <b_jonas> because it becomes a creature that's attacking, because it's attacking until end of turn, and because it's a wall that's attacking
21:20:57 <tswett> `run egrep -i "that's attacking you" share/mtg/allsets.txt
21:20:58 <HackEgo> Domain -- Creatures can't attack you unless their controller pays {X} for each creature he or she controls that's attacking you, where X is the number of basic land types among lands you control. \ Nonblack creatures can't attack you unless their controller pays {2} for each creature he or she controls that's attacking you. \ Creatures can't attack
21:23:08 <b_jonas> ``` egrep -i "right[a-z]" share/mtg/allsets.txt
21:23:11 <HackEgo> Brightflame \ Radiance -- Brightflame deals X damage to target creature and each other creature that shares a color with it. You gain life equal to the damage dealt this way. \ Brighthearth Banneret \ Brightstone Ritual \ Frightcrawler \ Threshold -- As long as seven or more cards are in your graveyard, Frightcrawler gets +2/+2 and can't block. \ F
21:23:20 <b_jonas> ``` egrep -i "\<right[a-z]" share/mtg/allsets.txt
21:23:21 <HackEgo> Rally the Righteous \ Righteous Aura \ Righteous Authority \ Righteous Avengers \ Righteous Blow \ Righteous Blow deals 2 damage to target attacking or blocking creature. \ Righteous Cause \ Righteous Charge \ Righteous Confluence \ Righteous Fury \ Righteous Indignation \ Righteous War \ Righteousness \ Shield of the Righteous \ Surge of Righteous
21:23:29 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:23:37 <b_jonas> ``` pgrep -i "\bright(?!ous)[a-z]" share/mtg/allsets.txt
21:23:37 <HackEgo> pgrep: invalid option -- 'i' \ \ Usage: \ pgrep [options] <pattern> \ \ Options: \ -c, --count count of matching processes \ -d, --delimeter <string> specify output delimeter \ -l, --list-name list PID and process name \ -v, --inverse negates the matching \ -f, --full use full process name
21:23:45 <b_jonas> ``` grep -Pi "\bright(?!ous)[a-z]" share/mtg/allsets.txt
21:23:48 <HackEgo> Rally the Righteous \ Righteous Aura \ Righteous Authority \ Righteous Avengers \ Righteous Blow \ Righteous Blow deals 2 damage to target attacking or blocking creature. \ Righteous Cause \ Righteous Charge \ Righteous Confluence \ Righteous Fury \ Righteous Indignation \ Righteous War \ Righteousness \ Shield of the Righteous \ Surge of Righteous
21:23:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Circuitrite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46985&oldid=46984 * Moon * (-11)
21:24:05 <b_jonas> ``` grep -Pi "\bright(?!eous)[a-z]" share/mtg/allsets.txt
21:24:14 <b_jonas> where did it get "righthaste"?
21:24:31 <tswett> `run egrep -i righth share/mtg/allsets.txt
21:24:33 <HackEgo> Brighthearth Banneret \ Rings of Brighthearth
21:24:56 <tswett> Maybe the same place it got "Bdast Hand".
21:25:08 <b_jonas> tswett: isn't that at least a card name?
21:25:25 <b_jonas> as opposed to what looks like an ability word
21:26:00 <tswett> Pretty sure that's in an ability.
21:26:14 <b_jonas> from the twitter, there's a card named Omberceptic Thrull. you'd think a card with that name would have the subtype Thrull. you'd be wrong.
21:26:50 <tswett> And don't forget All Werewolf.
21:27:17 <b_jonas> tswett: what's All Werewolf?
21:27:27 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
21:27:39 -!- boily has joined.
21:27:42 <int-e> `run egrep -i thast share/mtg/allsets.txt
21:28:03 <int-e> maybe it knows that it can combine two proper words into one
21:28:45 <b_jonas> int-e: there's... I think three words ending in haste: haste, turbo-haste from un, and some kind of haste in FUT
21:29:01 <tswett> That the end of a word can be followed immediately by the beginning of another word, instead of a space.
21:29:13 <b_jonas> turbohast is actually "Super haste"
21:29:34 <b_jonas> ``` grep -Pi "[a-z]haste" share/mtg/allsets.txt
21:29:47 <tswett> `run grep 'Super haste' share/mtg/allsets.txt
21:29:48 <HackEgo> Super haste (This may attack the turn before you play it. (You may put this card into play from your hand, tapped and attacking, during your declare attackers step. If you do, you lose the game at the end of your next turn unless you pay this card's mana cost during that turn.))
21:29:48 <b_jonas> what's that one in FUT called then?
21:29:59 <b_jonas> tswett: Super Haste is on Rocket-Powered Turbo Slug
21:30:06 <tswett> Reminder text with reminder text. I like it.
21:30:24 <b_jonas> tswett: you do? there's another instance on the nameless card
21:30:40 <tswett> `run grep '))' share/mtg/allsets.txt
21:30:41 <HackEgo> Super haste (This may attack the turn before you play it. (You may put this card into play from your hand, tapped and attacking, during your declare attackers step. If you do, you lose the game at the end of your next turn unless you pay this card's mana cost during that turn.))
21:31:04 <tswett> `run grep ').)' share/mtg/allsets.txt
21:31:14 <tswett> ).) looks kind of like a weird emoticon.
21:31:35 <b_jonas> right, I know why it's not in the allsets.txt
21:31:44 <b_jonas> see http://magiccards.info/uh/en/23.html for a solution
21:32:12 <int-e> Moon__: some sort of barrel?
21:32:30 <int-e> Moon__: your ascii-art
21:32:54 <b_jonas> ah no, the FUT one doesn't have abilityhaste
21:32:55 <Moon__> <tswett> ).) looks kind of like a weird emoticon.
21:33:07 <HackEgo> Bonded Fetch \ 2U \ Creature -- Homunculus \ 0/2 \ Defender, haste \ {T}: Draw a card, then discard a card. \ FUT-U
21:33:26 <boily> `card-by-name Cloudw
21:33:47 <boily> `card-by-name Cloud of
21:33:48 <HackEgo> Cloud of Faeries \ 1U \ Creature -- Faerie \ 1/1 \ Flying \ When Cloud of Faeries enters the battlefield, untap up to two lands. \ Cycling {2} ({2}, Discard this card: Draw a card.) \ UL-C, VMA-U
21:34:04 <b_jonas> “Counter target spell with five toughness 2 or greater.” in http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/creativity/custom-card-creation/612057-generating-magic-cards-using-deep-recurrent-neural
21:34:38 <boily> Gardenpath Counterspell.
21:35:15 <b_jonas> note that these are early cards, before the network was trained enough
21:35:27 <HackEgo> Horror of Horrors \ 3BB \ Enchantment \ Sacrifice a Swamp: Regenerate target black creature. (The next time that creature would be destroyed this turn, it isn't. Instead tap it, remove all damage from it, and remove it from combat.) \ LE-U, 9ED-U \ \ Horror of the Dim \ 4B \ Creature -- Horror \ 3/4 \ {U}: Horror of the Dim gains hexproof until en
21:36:36 <b_jonas> the twitter has a card named "Wall a"
21:36:41 <b_jonas> that's like that animated film
21:37:50 <b_jonas> twitter: “Whenever an opponent loses 1 life, target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn.” that one is an interesting restriction
21:40:06 <fizzie> fungot: Go and learn a style for a MtG card, will you?
21:41:06 <fungot> boily: maybe it is to generate the list structure itself ( not the java, that is
21:41:16 <b_jonas> “Ovyread Legation / 2G / Instant / Players can't exile its controller's control. If you do, shuffle your library.”
21:41:27 <boily> fungot: do not generate java hth
21:41:27 <fungot> boily: er this is openbsd, you know
21:41:43 <boily> fungot: you run on a bsd?
21:41:43 <fungot> boily: you're essentially breaking hygiene by comparing literally. inside of " ", at fnord
21:42:11 <boily> b_jonas: my mind, it hurts.
21:42:13 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
21:42:31 <fizzie> The freenode/#scheme part has made big contributions.
21:42:41 * Moon__ pokes boily for aliveness
21:43:05 <fizzie> I'm not sure how things orient chronologically, I may have run fungot on an OpenBSD.
21:43:05 <fungot> fizzie: you mean like the 0. is exact, z seems to be in
21:43:15 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
21:43:23 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
21:43:45 <b_jonas> "Glast Vonger / UU / 2/2 Creature - Shapeshifter / {T}: Destroy target creature with lifelink until end of turn.” -- I think that ability actually makes sense by the current rules
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21:43:49 <fizzie> The nethack style isn't a terribly good one. fungot, say something clever.
21:43:49 <fungot> fizzie: twoflower, guide: " now it is as white as a benign deity. he is endowed with not-inconsiderable sexual prowess which he bore, he readies his weapon could provide? i will set my face, so perfectly constructed that no one is quite unequivocal: _vampire_ " a wizard!"
21:44:12 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
21:44:16 <b_jonas> seriously, that's a quite nice card
21:44:25 <Moon__> fungot, say something clever.
21:44:25 <b_jonas> among the best generated ones
21:44:25 <fungot> Moon__: pointer to the outside world. they are organized into 4 registers: none note: ror instruction is available for programming commodore computers is to take advantage of the commodore 64. although there is no statement in basic creates a random number generator for games, programming tips, " if it had been transmitted or printed out) no interrupts can be restarted by using a fn call, or voices, a
21:44:46 <b_jonas> does zzo's file have any effect that destroys a permanent until end of turn?
21:44:50 <fizzie> That one tends to stop very suddenly, thanks to inadequate preprocessing.
21:45:12 <b_jonas> fizzie: doesn't it just run out of irc line space?
21:45:31 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
21:45:42 <b_jonas> Tardas Mersioner has some funny reminder text
21:45:42 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
21:45:49 <Moon__> fungot, say something clever.
21:45:49 <fungot> Moon__: but seriously, coke has quite little coffein if compared with coffee...
21:45:55 <Moon__> fungot, say something clever.
21:46:00 <Moon__> fungot, say something clever.
21:46:00 <fungot> Moon__: you're sitting on a wooden chair in a cafe of a library, there's little point, unless you already know where to put
21:46:05 <b_jonas> and it says “Bestroy target creature.”
21:46:05 <Moon__> fungot, say something clever.
21:46:09 <int-e> hmm continuous destruction. "I'll kill you, and this time you'll stay dead, is that understood?"
21:46:16 <Moon__> fungot, say something clever.
21:46:38 <int-e> "there's little point"
21:47:01 <fizzie> b_jonas: It might have done that right now, but (IIRC) it *also* does it randomly with that style, because I didn't unbreak lines to form paragraphs.
21:47:09 <HackEgo> It little profits that an idle king, / By this still hearth, among these barren crags, / Match'd with an aged wife, I mete and dole / Unequal laws unto a savage race, / That hoard, and sleep, and feed, and know not me. / I cannot rest from travel: I will drink / Life to the lees; all times I have enjoy'd / Greatly, have suffer'd greatly, both with
21:47:32 <b_jonas> there's little point in an idle king
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21:48:04 <zzo38> There is the card +2/+2 and flying until end of turn, but I made up the card that damages a creature and then that creature is flying until end of turn.
21:48:47 <int-e> does it also get some more damage when it crashes to the ground?
21:48:47 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh, is that some sort of goblin grenade, or a giant that likes to play football with smaller creatures?
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21:49:16 <zzo38> No it is a instant and it does not cause more damage once it stopped flying
21:49:36 <int-e> `run egrep -i plummet share/mtg/allsets.txt
21:49:41 <boily> Moon__: Mhelloon__. fungot.
21:49:41 <fungot> boily: aha. is there anyway that could be called fnord, which guarantees practically infinite energy for free
21:49:50 * boily calls Moon__ "fnord"
21:50:15 <int-e> hmm, destroy... a bit more than I was looking for, but fair enough
21:50:22 <zzo38> The card I made is: Ground Shock {R} Instant ;; ~ deals 3 damage to target creature without flying. That creature gets +1/+1 and gains flying until end of turn.
21:50:49 <hppavilion[1]> Most neural networks use numbers to pass around data...
21:50:55 <hppavilion[1]> But could someone do something similar with strings?
21:51:49 <int-e> damn. I guess a 0/3 creature (no bonuses, no previous damage) will survive...
21:52:09 <int-e> ...but I'm not sure!
21:52:28 <zzo38> It will survive, but will be dead with one more point of damage
21:54:02 <int-e> But I would have had to read rules to figure out whether that all happens at once or whether a state check could see the 3 damage without seeing the +1/+1.
21:55:17 <zzo38> It can't; state based actions only occur when a player is about to receive priority.
21:57:26 <HackEgo> 🐐//🐐 <(Unicode goat laments your inability to render Unicode goat.)
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22:00:05 <zzo38> What is the limit for the directory stack in bash?
22:00:47 <zzo38> The "shegoc" gopher client that I wrote uses four entries in the directory stack for each entry of the history to be able to go back.
22:01:29 <HackEgo> U+1F5FF MOYAI \ UTF-8: f0 9f 97 bf UTF-16BE: d83dddff Decimal: 🗿 \ 🗿 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+2668 HOT SPRINGS \ UTF-8: e2 99 a8 UTF-16BE: 2668 Decimal: ♨ \ ♨ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+1F4AE WHITE FLOWER \ UTF-8: f0 9f 92 ae UTF-16BE: d83ddcae
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22:07:26 <zzo38> The program called "shegoc" is a gopher client that I wrote in shell scripts, so you can write about that if you want to.
22:07:54 <boily> SHEll GOpher Chicken.
22:08:27 <Moon__> boily, what is with you and Chicken (esolang)
22:08:41 <zzo38> It stands for "Client" not "Chicken" but otherwise it is OK
22:14:10 <boily> Moon__: nothing about the chicken esolang. all about chicken.
22:14:17 <boily> `? things boily like
22:14:18 <HackEgo> things boily like? ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:14:28 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/thing*: No such file or directory
22:14:49 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/stuff*: No such file or directory
22:14:59 <boily> `` ls wisdom/{thing,stuff}*
22:15:00 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/stuff*: No such file or directory \ wisdom/things boily likes
22:15:08 <boily> `? things boily like
22:15:09 <HackEgo> things boily like? ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:15:12 <boily> `? things boily likes
22:15:14 <HackEgo> Fire is good. I like fire. Also chicken. And phở. Moreover, cubes.
22:16:03 <zzo38> I should add support for other item types too, such as downloading, and configure what program to use for pictures and telnet and so on.
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23:59:39 <Moon__> and potential new person
23:59:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hfs: not found
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00:08:37 <HackEgo> find .hg/store/data/wisdom -type f -print0 | xargs -0 /bin/ls -t | perl -pe 'use POSIX;chop;$d=strftime("%F",localtime((stat($_))[9]));s=^.hg/store/data/wisdom/(.*).i$=\1 // =;s=^=/$d/ = if$d ne$p;$p=$d;s=_(.)=uc($1)=eg;s=~([0-9a-f][0-9a-f])=chr hex$1=eg'
00:09:06 <HackEgo> hg log --removed -- "$1" | grep summary: | sed "s/ +/ /g" | sed "s/^ //" | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}'| sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
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00:09:55 <oerjan> @tell boily your `lastwisdoms pings tdnh
00:11:08 -!- Akaibu has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
00:11:26 <quintopia> @tell boily also: we see hanging out here on mothers day
00:11:57 <oerjan> @tell boily oops, sorry, misidentified culprit
00:12:11 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas your `lastwisdoms pings tdnh
00:12:33 <HackEgo> /2016-05-08/ roborosewater // cookbook // recipe // hydrogen // wisdom.pdf // wisdoms.pdf // gene ray // professor gene ray // english channel // oerjan // #esoteric // hfs // /2016-05-07/ amnesium // wisest human // adventure // timecube // time cube // tas // /2016-05-06/ huh // ta // acab // brainfuck // hms pinafore // wisdoom // tanebventio
00:12:37 <oerjan> let's check if anyone actually fixed it
00:14:25 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas also, i said i was retired.
00:14:43 <quintopia> just edit a bunch of wisdoms until your wisdom file gets bumped off
00:18:09 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas also you have misunderstood the problem, so `lastwisdoms doesn't actually solve anything. it is in fact _essential_ to have all the information in the logs both about what the file was changed to and whether it already existed.
00:19:51 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas because the whole point is to be able to guess with no false negatives whether a wisdom edit has messed up anything. and honestly a mass summary will just leave it in the same position as the repository browser - where i look through it only rarely, and more and more reluctantly. (did i mention i've retired?)
00:23:35 <oerjan> hm the antiping method used in culprits won't work for tanebventions.
00:24:56 <oerjan> the problem being that wisdom names can in principle contain nicks as substrings anywhere.
00:25:22 <HackEgo> print_args_or_input "$@" | sed 's/\(..\)/\1/g'
00:25:53 <oerjan> that one, though, will shorten the output by a lot.
00:28:21 <oerjan> @tell boily btw since `lastwisdom was actually useless for its intended purpose, you might be the most likely user. but please only in private (see above).
00:30:16 <oerjan> Moon__: That is cannibalism, and is in fact frowned upon in most societies.
00:31:10 <ybden> oerjan: did you mean to tell boily, or b_jonas?
00:31:42 <oerjan> ybden: the first to boily was a misdirection, the last one wasn't.
00:34:04 <int-e> oerjan: it's hard to weigh pings and cut&past-ability.
00:34:54 <oerjan> int-e: true. i wondered if just appending | paste to the whole thing would be best.
00:35:13 <int-e> tromp: yay, Isabelle believes that my function (laver1) terminates.
00:36:50 * oerjan has a hunch it's a bit early to tell. as in unfathomable universe-lifetimes early.
00:36:54 <int-e> \oren\: it worked in my tests, if that's what you're asking (Isabelle is an interactive proof assistant.)
00:37:17 <oerjan> int-e: wow you must have a fast computer
00:37:37 <oerjan> (or possibly a less evolved laver table)
00:38:32 <int-e> oerjan: I just produced tables for concrete n (up to 4)
00:38:49 * oerjan notes after looking up that cannibalism quote that most of the google hits can't agree on the wording
00:39:03 <oerjan> int-e: not 32 then, i take.
00:40:09 <int-e> oerjan: Not using that code. I have an improved version that works well up to n=16 or so. cf. https://github.com/tromp/AIT/blob/master/laver.hs
00:41:06 <int-e> (n is the n in the set {1..2^n}... I've also done some remapping)
00:41:13 <oerjan> i just recall that it was mentioned in the thread to grow faster than some nested ackermanns
00:41:45 <oerjan> assuming it's one of those tables
00:42:01 <int-e> there's one or too more indirections before we get to "it".
00:42:40 <int-e> In fact I'm just shelving, so to speak.
00:43:57 <int-e> tromp: in fact I realized that the proof of a |> b > a if a < mx needs to be interleaved with the termination proof. Such fun!
00:46:03 <oerjan> `addquote <Taneb> Morning <shachaf> G'daneb <shachaf> invent anything good overnight? <Taneb> I don't know yet, I haven't read the logs
00:46:07 <HackEgo> 1280) <Taneb> Morning <shachaf> G'daneb <shachaf> invent anything good overnight? <Taneb> I don't know yet, I haven't read the logs
00:46:10 <int-e> oerjan: note also that I don't know why I actually obtain a shelf that way... i.e. why self-distributivity holds.
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00:54:13 <oerjan> 01:21:44 <Shubshub> Anyone made anything cool with Gopher yet? :P
00:54:13 <oerjan> 01:23:22 <shachaf> zzo38 has been posting a lot of Gopher programs.
00:54:26 <oerjan> everything went better than i expected.
00:54:43 <oerjan> Shubshub: did someone explain it
00:55:03 <oerjan> Shubshub: Gopher already has a different meaning, which zzo38 is into.
00:55:20 <Hoolootwo> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopher_%28protocol%29
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00:57:48 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Used to contain the utterance "An unknown source on IRC has verified that everyone knows or reasonably should know about this film. Anyone claiming not to be aware of it, is feigning ignorance."
01:00:05 <HackEgo> Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman, hatheist, and completely out of the loop.
01:06:28 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas "I can't win." sounds like a pretty good summary hth
01:23:58 <oerjan> hm int-e's `lastwisdoms format is too clever
01:24:42 <oerjan> * int-e thought about it. // is impossible to fake, and a leading / as well. <-- I AGREE
01:31:37 <HackEgo> wisdoms.pdf Nicely formatted wisdoms and quotes book at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf
01:31:45 <HackEgo> wisdom.pdf Nicely formatted wisdoms and quotes book at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf
01:32:29 <oerjan> `` rm wisdoms.pdf; sed -i 's/[^ ]* //' wisdom.pdf
01:32:33 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `wisdoms.pdf': No such file or directory
01:32:44 <oerjan> `` rm wisdom/wisdoms.pdf; sed -i 's/[^ ]* //' wisdom/wisdom.pdf
01:32:54 <HackEgo> Nicely formatted wisdoms and quotes book at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf
01:33:57 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas in fact looking at your most recent wisdoms?.pdf edits, i'll say seeing the exact resulting content is the _most_ important issue :P
01:38:12 <oerjan> <b_jonas> int-e: hmm, if we install a second mercurial in user-space, will it be able to read this repo? <-- O_O
01:44:52 <oerjan> @tell \oren\ <\oren\> the UN should pass a resolution against middle-endian dates <-- nah, then the republicans would force through a law insisting on them hth
01:50:41 <oerjan> <b_jonas> the awesome part is that experimental physicists say “core of Jupiter, eh? that sounds easy enough, let's build machines to replicate it.” <-- hm now i'm wondering what's the highest pressure scientists can sustain on a significant volume (say, at least visible to the naked eye)
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01:58:37 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_anvil_cell but that's very small
02:11:00 <oerjan> `frink 25 GPa -> atmospheres
02:11:49 <oerjan> `frink 25 GPa -> atmospheres
02:12:48 <oerjan> `echo hm; frink 25 GPa -> atmospheres
02:12:49 <HackEgo> hm; frink 25 GPa -> atmospheres
02:12:52 <oerjan> `` echo hm; frink 25 GPa -> atmospheres
02:14:23 <HackEgo> bin/frink: POSIX shell script, ASCII text executable
02:14:29 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec /hackenv/lib/frink -e "$@"
02:14:43 <HackEgo> lib/frink: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.15, BuildID[sha1]=0x3d3ad786ec6233455da8a3371b38b238b692f3e1, not stripped
02:15:03 <oerjan> `` lib/frink -e "25 GPa -> atmospheres"
02:15:34 <HackEgo> 1000000000/4053 (approx. 246730.8166790032)
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02:17:38 <HackEgo> 01:17:34 up 0 min, 0 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
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04:20:25 <zzo38> Now my JavaScript implementation of Internet Quiz Engine is support ANSI colours
04:28:53 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas <b_jonas> [...] "what a good idea! I'll store the pan in the cupboard pre-greased too." <-- i distinctly vaguely recall that someone in my family actually does that.
04:29:34 <zzo38> Do you have some ideas about how I could implement text entry questions in Internet Quiz Engine (in a way that is suitable to fit with everything else)?
04:30:50 <zzo38> Or any other feature suggestions you might have?
04:32:35 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: now i'm reminded of the replaceable typewriter heads that were on a shelf in the math institute back in my time, with all kinds of symbols on them. (long since out of use, i think.)
04:33:01 <zzo38> It already has many advanced features not found in other programs.
04:33:13 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Could they do square roots and derivatives?
04:33:24 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: probably.
04:34:31 <oerjan> mind you, i think you were supposed to change between them according to which symbols you needed.
04:37:36 <oerjan> possibly this was it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Selectric_typewriter
04:43:20 <oerjan> it had some flaws "Though done to protect the print mechanism from damage,[27] an unexpected keyboard lock activation could cause minor injury to a typist with a heavy touch."
04:58:45 * hppavilion[1] waits patiently for oerjan to understand the reference, even if e has to google it
05:02:20 <notfowl> Is that the Selectric that communicates with the other universe
05:02:25 <zzo38> The gopher menu for Internet Quiz Engine now includes the source-codes also.
05:02:53 <zzo38> notfowl: How would it communicate with other universe?
05:03:12 <zzo38> I think they don't make Selectric typewriter anymore but they should I think it was the best kind isn't it?
05:03:46 <notfowl> Whatever you type on it appears in another universe and they can type to you on the other side
05:04:28 <notfowl> As for how it does this? Some real dark satanic science
05:06:18 <oerjan> quantum entanglement, says the wiki. which is about the same thing hth
05:08:17 <zzo38> I don't think quantum entanglement can do that. Actually I think I read they tried to do that and failed, and ended up inventing quantum information theory instead, so it is kind of accident
05:08:30 <zzo38> (But maybe I misremembered what I had read.)
05:10:13 <zzo38> I still think Selectric is probably a good typewriter despite that though.
05:12:01 <zzo38> If IBM won't make it then some other company should do so, and also add a serial port to add the possibility for send/receive by computer in addition to the possibility of use like normal typewriters.
05:13:22 <pikhq> I think some later Selectric models had exactly that feature.
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05:20:21 <zzo38> But was it ASCII or EBCDIC? The ASCII one should be made up.
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05:23:27 <pikhq> Probably EBCDIC knowing IBM.
05:24:40 <zzo38> Yes, and that is why they need to make the new one with ASCII. If some company would make new typewriter like Selectric and also can connect to computer in addition to standalone use then it can good to use.
05:25:56 <zzo38> (But you may use a typeface that some characters are not quite ASCII, anyways)
05:26:05 <zzo38> (Depends which one you load into the typewriter)
05:48:11 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
06:05:32 <\oren\> AAARGH this is the nth anime i've seen that begins with "guy is forced to join a club, meets crazy girl..."
06:05:54 <pikhq> Or, "Haruhi was popular let's do that"?
06:06:49 <\oren\> these people need to be more creative in their plot openings. the actual plots themselves are more different
06:09:58 <zzo38> What kind of plot opening will be the better one?
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06:16:31 <\oren\> how about the boy joins a club out of genuine interest, and then an annoying girl joins afterward?
06:16:47 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: didn't you notice that anime plots are *always* generalized? it is a business that is highly refined and regularized.
06:18:15 <\oren\> i mean there are lots of ways an "ordinary boy" and an "annoying girl" could meet
06:18:57 <\oren\> lifthrasiir: it certainly seems they stick to formula a lot
06:19:31 <lifthrasiir> well, if a particular plot works well, and the audience just likes it so much that duplicates are also highly successful in general, then it gaves to a new business obviously
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06:21:21 <lifthrasiir> modern day otaku anime business is based on the nighttime airing (not really free, but almost free) and the prohibitively expensive pricing of DVD/Blu-Ray boxes
06:22:15 <lifthrasiir> this, combined with low wage standard for animators, makes a very strange market
06:23:07 <lifthrasiir> it strangely looks like an art commissioned by nobles in the middle ages, only worse
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06:45:24 <Shubshub> I improved the Code Optimization on my Esolang Intepreter (On Discord atleast)
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08:07:14 <b_jonas> oerjan: re lastwisdoms pings => that's a feature. you get pinged to show someone has edited the wisdom about you.
08:08:14 <oerjan> that would make more sense if it only showed new ones
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08:19:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46986&oldid=46735 * 8.42.77.107 * (+2) /* Example program */
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08:28:36 <izabera> can you find a task that's not solvable by a brainfuck program with less than 100 instructions?
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08:34:55 <shachaf> b_jonas: Wisdom mutations in the channel are useful for the same reason that HackEgo posts wiki edits in the channel.
08:35:56 <oerjan> izabera: determining whether a brainfuck algorithm with less than 100 instructions halts hth
08:36:31 <oerjan> make that a bit more than 100.
08:38:55 <oerjan> (ok, maybe times a constant too, i'm not quite sure.)
08:41:30 <izabera> why does that need more than 100 instructions?
08:41:33 <shachaf> perhaps tetrated to a constant
08:42:01 <oerjan> izabera: because you can adapt the standard proof that the halting problem is unsolvable to all kinds of resource limits
08:42:26 <oerjan> shachaf: actually i think it's probably just +, i just haven't thought it through.
08:42:50 <izabera> can you show an example of how such proof would work?
08:43:15 <shachaf> oerjan: adding a constant is an integral part of formulas like that hth
08:58:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46987&oldid=46986 * 8.42.77.107 * (-2) /* Example program */
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09:26:39 <b_jonas> hackego, you're very slow again
09:26:43 <HackEgo> are pastry and expanpie with a layer of the squares, on the salads and lightly, and set \ over a slotted serving plate to cook. \ \ In a large saucepan, combine the vegetables and blend well. \ \ From: Fine, Help-jellini \ by Market Alaskarel Cookbook_ by Inrow \ MMCONV. \ \ MMMMM \ \ MMMMM----- Recipe via Meal-Master (tm) v8.05 \ \
09:26:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: random-card: not found
09:32:24 <b_jonas> ``` echo $'#!/bin/sh\nexec perl -e\'''open$I,"<","share/mtg/allsets.txt"or die$!;$/=""; @c=grep{/(?:$ARGV[0])/}<$I>; print $c[rand($c)];'\'' "$1"' > bin/random-card && chmod -v a+x bin/random-card
09:32:31 <HackEgo> mode of `bin/random-card' changed from 0644 (rw-r--r--) to 0755 (rwxr-xr-x)
09:32:36 <HackEgo> "Ach! Hans, Run!" \ 2RRGG \ Enchantment \ At the beginning of your upkeep, you may say "Ach! Hans, run! It's the . . ." and name a creature card. If you do, search your library for the named card, put it into play, then shuffle your library. That creature has haste. Remove it from the game at end of turn. \ UNH-R
09:32:41 <b_jonas> ``` echo $'#!/bin/sh\nexec perl -e\'''open$I,"<","share/mtg/allsets.txt"or die$!;$/=""; @c=grep{/(?i:$ARGV[0])/}<$I>; print $c[rand($c)];'\'' "$1"' > bin/random-card && chmod -v a+x bin/random-card
09:32:55 <b_jonas> ``` echo $'#!/bin/sh\nexec perl -e\'''open$I,"<","share/mtg/allsets.txt"or die$!;$/=""; @c=grep{/(?i:$ARGV[0])/}<$I>; print $c[rand(@c)];'\'' "$1"' > bin/random-card && chmod -v a+x bin/random-card
09:32:56 <HackEgo> mode of `bin/random-card' retained as 0755 (rwxr-xr-x)
09:33:00 <HackEgo> mode of `bin/random-card' retained as 0755 (rwxr-xr-x)
09:33:01 <b_jonas> ``` echo $'#!/bin/sh\nexec perl -e\'''open$I,"<","share/mtg/allsets.txt"or die$!;$/=""; @c=grep{/(?i:$ARGV[0])/}<$I>; print $c[rand(@c)];'\'' "$1"' > bin/random-card && chmod -v a+x bin/random-card
09:33:02 <HackEgo> mode of `bin/random-card' retained as 0755 (rwxr-xr-x)
09:33:15 <HackEgo> Flame Jet \ 1R \ Sorcery \ Flame Jet deals 3 damage to target player. \ Cycling {2} ({2}, Discard this card: Draw a card.) \ UD-C
09:33:18 <HackEgo> Scapeshift \ 2GG \ Sorcery \ Sacrifice any number of lands. Search your library for up to that many land cards, put them onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle your library. \ MOR-R
09:33:24 <HackEgo> Tel-Jilad Fallen \ 2GG \ Creature -- Elf Warrior \ 3/1 \ Protection from artifacts \ Infect (This creature deals damage to creatures in the form of -1/-1 counters and to players in the form of poison counters.) \ SOM-C
09:33:48 <HackEgo> Copy Enchantment \ 2U \ Enchantment \ You may have Copy Enchantment enter the battlefield as a copy of any enchantment on the battlefield. \ RAV-R
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09:41:25 <b_jonas> ``` echo $'#!/bin/sh\nexec perl -e\'''open$I,"<","share/mtg/allsets.txt"or die$!;$/=""; @c=grep{/(?mi:$ARGV[0])/}<$I>; print $c[rand(@c)];'\'' "$1"' > bin/random-card && chmod -v a+x bin/random-card
09:41:28 <HackEgo> mode of `bin/random-card' retained as 0755 (rwxr-xr-x)
09:41:54 <HackEgo> Deep-Sea Terror \ 4UU \ Creature -- Serpent \ 6/6 \ Deep-Sea Terror can't attack unless there are seven or more cards in your graveyard. \ ORI-C
09:41:59 <HackEgo> Smash to Smithereens \ 1R \ Instant \ Destroy target artifact. Smash to Smithereens deals 3 damage to that artifact's controller. \ SHM-C, MM2-C, ORI-C
09:43:41 <HackEgo> Mental Misstep \ (u/p) \ Instant \ ({(u/p)} can be paid with either {U} or 2 life.) \ Counter target spell with converted mana cost 1. \ NPH-U
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09:50:00 <HackEgo> Gut Shot \ (r/p) \ Instant \ ({(r/p)} can be paid with either {R} or 2 life.) \ Gut Shot deals 1 damage to target creature or player. \ NPH-U, MM2-C
09:50:32 <HackEgo> Reaper King \ (2/w)(2/u)(2/b)(2/r)(2/g) \ Legendary Artifact Creature -- Scarecrow \ 6/6 \ ({(2/w)} can be paid with any two mana or with {W}. This card's converted mana cost is 10.) \ Other Scarecrow creatures you control get +1/+1. \ Whenever another Scarecrow enters the battlefield under your control, destroy target permanent. \ SHM-R \ \ Reape
09:50:44 <HackEgo> Flame Javelin \ (2/r)(2/r)(2/r) \ Instant \ ({(2/r)} can be paid with any two mana or with {R}. This card's converted mana cost is 6.) \ Flame Javelin deals 4 damage to target creature or player. \ SHM-U, DD2-U, DDK-U
09:54:08 <b_jonas> we should figure out some interface for the comprehensive rules too
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10:24:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: source: not found
10:24:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: src: cannot execute: Is a directory
10:24:24 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in Mexico!
10:24:28 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
10:25:29 <quintopia> https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/multibot/wiki/Home
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10:41:48 <fizzie> https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot is arguably much more relevant.
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10:42:15 <fizzie> I mean, sure, it uses the multibot framework, but all that running-things stuff is hackbot.
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10:42:37 <fizzie> Plus https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/umlbox/wiki/Home for the actual work.
10:48:55 <ybden> Does anyone know how it tracks the wiki changes?
10:49:03 <ybden> Or, where said code is stored
10:51:53 <HackEgo> !\.´ \ advice \ atmospheres \ bin \ canary \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ theorems \ tmflry \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
10:52:45 <quintopia> none of those seem obvious candidates
10:54:05 <HackEgo> alternatives \ java-6-openjdk
10:56:36 <b_jonas> `fetch http://media.wizards.com/2016/docs/MagicCompRules_04082016.txt
10:56:39 <HackEgo> 2016-05-09 09:56:33 URL:http://media.wizards.com/2016/docs/MagicCompRules_04082016.txt [650390/650390] -> "MagicCompRules_04082016.txt" [1]
10:57:00 <b_jonas> ``` mv -vit /hackego/share/mtg/ "MagicCompRules_04082016.txt"
10:57:01 <HackEgo> mv: accessing `/hackego/share/mtg/': No such file or directory
10:57:08 <b_jonas> ``` mv -vit share/mtg/ "MagicCompRules_04082016.txt"
10:57:11 <HackEgo> `MagicCompRules_04082016.txt' -> `share/mtg/MagicCompRules_04082016.txt'
10:58:26 <b_jonas> ``` cd /hackenv/share/mtg && mv -vi MagiCompRules_{04082016,20160408}.txt
10:58:28 <HackEgo> mv: cannot stat `MagiCompRules_04082016.txt': No such file or directory
10:58:37 <b_jonas> ``` cd /hackenv/share/mtg && mv -vi MagicCompRules_{04082016,20160408}.txt
10:58:41 <HackEgo> `MagicCompRules_04082016.txt' -> `MagicCompRules_20160408.txt'
10:58:50 <b_jonas> ``` cd /hackenv/share/mtg && ln -sv MagicCompRules{_20160408,}.txt
10:58:54 <HackEgo> `MagicCompRules.txt' -> `MagicCompRules_20160408.txt'
10:59:26 <b_jonas> ``` cd share/mtg && cat -A MagicCompRules.txt
10:59:27 <HackEgo> Magic: The Gathering Comprehensive Rules^M$ \ ^M$ \ These rules are effective as of April 8, 2016.^M$ \ ^M$ \ Introduction^M$ \ ^M$ \ This document is designed for people whoM-^Rve moved beyond the basics of the Magic: The GatheringM-. game. If youM-^Rre a beginning MagicM-^Y player, youM-^Rll probably find these rules intimidating. TheyM-^Rre inte
10:59:36 <b_jonas> ``` cd share/mtg && cat MagicCompRules.txt
10:59:38 <HackEgo> Magic: The Gathering Comprehensive Rules
11:01:03 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access libexec: No such file or directory
11:01:10 <HackEgo> ./ \ ../ \ 8ballreplies \ Complaints.mp3 \ UnicodeData.txt \ WordData/ \ autowelcome_status \ awesome \ cat \ conscripts \ construct_grams.pl* \ delvs-master/ \ dict-words \ esolangs.txt \ esolangs.txt.sorted \ hello* \ lua/ \ maimer \ maimery \ maze* \ mtg/ \ nothp \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ recipe/ \ scapeg
11:01:12 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access usr: No such file or directory
11:03:02 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/prepare-mtg: No such file or directory
11:03:15 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/*mtg*: No such file or directory
11:04:02 <b_jonas> ``` echo $'#!/bin/bash\nset -e\n''cd /hackenv/share/mtg && tr -d \\r < MagicCompRules.txt > rules.txt && echo written ~+/rules.txt' > bin/preprocess-mtg && chmod -v a+x bin/preprocess-mtg
11:04:08 <HackEgo> mode of `bin/preprocess-mtg' changed from 0644 (rw-r--r--) to 0755 (rwxr-xr-x)
11:04:12 <HackEgo> written /hackenv/share/mtg/rules.txt
11:04:22 <b_jonas> ``` cd share/mtg && cat rules.txt
11:04:25 <HackEgo> Magic: The Gathering Comprehensive Rules \ \ These rules are effective as of April 8, 2016. \ \ Introduction \ \ This document is designed for people whove moved beyond the basics of the Magic: The Gathering® game. If youre a beginning Magic player, youll probably find these rules intimidating. Theyre intended to be the ultimate authority f
11:25:57 <fizzie> ybden: There isn't "code" as such.
11:26:26 <fizzie> ybden: It's using MediaWiki's UDP-based change notifications and:
11:26:27 <fizzie> socat UDP-RECV:8147,bind=127.0.0.1 STDOUT | stdbuf -oL cut -c 1-400 | stdbuf -oL sed -e 's/^/PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] /' | socat STDIN UNIX-SENDTO:/tmp/multibot.HackEgo
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11:28:11 <fizzie> (That's running outside the sandbox you see, receiving the UDP notifications, mangling them a little bit, and then feeding them into the socket multibot provides for having the bot send arbitrary things to the server it's connected to.)
11:51:08 <lambdabot> oerjan said 11h 41m 12s ago: your `lastwisdoms pings tdnh
11:51:08 <lambdabot> quintopia said 11h 39m 42s ago: also: we see hanging out here on mothers day
11:51:08 <lambdabot> oerjan said 11h 39m 10s ago: oops, sorry, misidentified culprit
11:51:08 <lambdabot> oerjan said 11h 22m 46s ago: btw since `lastwisdom was actually useless for its intended purpose, you might be the most likely user. but please only in private (see above).
11:51:59 <boily> I ought to unloud my massages...
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12:17:16 <fizzie> "Code Golf Contest #130: Nethack speedrun" now *that's* a title
12:17:55 <fizzie> It seems to have been just a little bit simplified from what the description might imply.
12:20:04 <fizzie> Turns out it's a find-the-length-of-the-shortest-path task with input being a NetHack level "screenshot".
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14:28:27 <izabera> https://i.imgur.com/EBLfLHy.jpg
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16:12:02 <nortti> a single sed replacement that will run a "step" of BCT, feed it program:data (uses ERE, run with sed -E): s/^(0)(.*):.|^(1(.))(.*):(1.*)$|^(1.)(.*):/\2\5\8\1\3\7:\6\4/
16:14:17 <fizzie> Didn't we do that once?
16:14:38 <nortti> yeah, but it used more than 10 capture groups
16:14:53 <nortti> so wouldn't run on a normal sed
16:15:22 <fizzie> Oh, right -- it was as a Perl regex.
16:22:07 <fizzie> Yeah, it captured the separator character as well.
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17:53:34 <lambdabot> CYVR 091600Z 23004KT 200V330 20SM BKN019 11/08 A3010 RMK SC6 SLP194
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18:43:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GeorgeGibson * New user account
18:45:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46988&oldid=46794 * GeorgeGibson * (+261) /* Sacred */
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18:56:02 <zzo38> Do you like "last strike"?
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18:56:51 <shachaf> zzo38: Does that add a third combat damage step?
18:58:48 <zzo38> It is my own kind of idea (and possibly others too)
18:59:34 <shachaf> zzo38: But then there are three possible meanings of "double strike".
18:59:43 <zzo38> I would suggest that if it has last strike then it deal damage during the last strike step instead of the normal strike step; first strike overrides it. If it has both double strike and last strike then it deals damage during the first strike step and last strike step but not the normal strike step.
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21:26:06 <myname> fizzie: do you have to take leveling into account?
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22:03:55 <b_jonas> `card-by-name yawgmoth's will
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22:04:38 <b_jonas> fungot, give hackego a swift kick
22:04:38 <fungot> b_jonas: i know it isn't super-turing? 1 1) 1)
22:04:45 <HackEgo> Yawgmoth's Will \ 2B \ Sorcery \ Until end of turn, you may play cards from your graveyard. \ If a card would be put into your graveyard from anywhere this turn, exile that card instead. \ US-R, VMA-M
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23:47:29 <Moon__> Hoover, your a necromancer, you ressurected it
23:47:58 <Moon__> http://esolangs.org/wiki/ZOMBIE
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23:52:32 <HackEgo> [U+03BC GREEK SMALL LETTER MU]
23:53:25 <lynn> Advice: if you *must* program using Unicode identifiers, don't mix up your µs and μs. ;__;
23:53:56 <HackEgo> [U+03BC GREEK SMALL LETTER MU]
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00:10:36 <Moon__> i haz found garbage http://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%99%A6
00:15:34 <Phantom__Hoover> straight substitution seems too obvious but it's worth trying frequency analysis
00:21:13 <Moon__> define '<': increment ptrp; define '+': increment dup; define '-': decrement dup;
00:21:32 <Moon__> A esolang im working on has a sample bf intepreter (=
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00:24:41 <HackEgo> 615) * oerjan concludes that unsafeCoerce has no effect on strictness \ 614) <CakeProphet> but yeah the caliphates expanded their empire by conquering people and then forcing them to either convert to Islam or die. [...] <oerjan> i thought it was sort of, convert to islam or pay extra taxes, but i guess it varied a lot. \ 366) <Sgeo> Will anyone be
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00:25:34 <oerjan> hichaf. turns out reading about a new mathematical concept a few hours before going to bed is not conducive to good sleeping hth
00:25:42 <HackEgo> 960) <Sgeo> o.O OS/2 is what became NT? I didn't really know what OS/2 was
00:25:42 <HackEgo> 434) <fungot> fizzie: i, myself, will bring an end to all.
00:25:46 <HackEgo> 879) <coppro> GreyKnight: for instance, you can form a poset category from a bunch of tiles <GreyKnight> oh, that's why somebody was conflating category theory with bathroom interior design the other day :-D
00:25:46 <HackEgo> 117) <Gregor> <badgood> GOODBAD! Your watered down brand of evil conflicts with my botched attempts at dogoodery!
00:25:47 <HackEgo> 1255) <shachaf> What is an esolang? <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: It's an archaic term for an Esolang
00:25:50 <shachaf> which new mathematical concept did you read about this time
00:26:08 <oerjan> on the plus side, i now understand why laver tables must have 2^n sizes if they exist. although not yet why they are shelves.
00:27:01 <coppro> how do you use le/rn/ again?
00:28:32 <shachaf> `le/rn laver table/A laver table is a type of Welsh furniture primarily used for eating seaweed.
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00:29:35 <shachaf> i was talking to coppro hth
00:29:44 <shachaf> obviously i wouldn't ask the retiree
00:29:57 <HackEgo> Your retired mysterious evil cackling overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
00:30:52 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/re//' wisdom/oerjan
00:31:12 <oerjan> /me swats shachaf -----###
00:31:42 <shachaf> have you been saving that one up
00:32:02 <coppro> shachaf: I was just going to quote wikipedia
00:32:18 <coppro> laver tables are tables of numbers that have certain properties
00:32:54 <shachaf> https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/too+simple+to+be+simple
00:37:55 <Moon__> i made a thing: http://pastebin.com/680vBM4U
00:38:04 <Moon__> its the demo idea for a esolang im making
00:38:09 <Moon__> its a brainfuck intepreter
00:39:37 <Moon__> its unique in its own ways
00:39:59 <Moon__> it may be useful still
00:40:08 <Moon__> think about it for a second
00:40:41 <Moon__> you could intepret a lot of languages in the finished product
00:41:06 <oerjan> i think the wikipedia article on Laver tables confuses racks with shelves. unfortunately there seems to be no article on the latter.
00:41:27 <oerjan> (racks have an extra requirement.)
00:42:58 <Moon__> Hey, at least lex is turing complete
00:43:19 <shachaf> oerjan: but what quandles twh
00:45:57 <shachaf> oerjan: also does the shelf operation have anything to do with S twah
00:47:59 <Moon__> shachaf: what do you think of this? http://pastebin.com/680vBM4U
00:48:08 <oerjan> the S combinator? looks awkward.
00:48:22 <Moon__> because i want your opinion
00:48:43 <shachaf> But I've hardly talked to you.
00:51:01 <oerjan> "shelf" is not an easily googleable term tdnh
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00:52:51 <Moon__> Tromp_; what do you think of this? http://pastebin.com/680vBM4U
00:53:30 -!- ybden has quit (Quit: leaving).
00:54:43 <shachaf> Moon__: It's kind of rude to just ask your question of whoever is talking in the channel or just joined the channel.
00:55:01 <shachaf> It's also not too useful, because those are exactly the people who see what's going on in the channel anyway.
00:55:57 <tromp_> Moon__ i think's it's rather verbose:(
00:56:07 <oerjan> it refused to load until the very moment i pressed close, which i take as a sign not to look at it hth
00:56:59 <shachaf> That's why people ought to post raw links when they use pastebin.com
00:57:30 <Moon__> im writing it so i can have aliases for things
00:57:47 <Moon__> I'd say its good for defineing intepreters :P
00:58:44 <Moon__> Here's the raw link oerjan: http://pastebin.com/raw/680vBM4U
00:59:28 <Moon__> but but thats a bf interpreter and proof of turing completeness for something im makeing ;-;
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01:00:08 <hppavilion[1]> I seem to be formulating a collection of mathematical chess variants
01:00:13 <oerjan> i recommend not naming your languages after common unix utilities hth
01:00:17 <hppavilion[1]> Are chess variants like the BF derivative of board games?
01:00:35 <Moon__> Oh, i didnt know that lex was a unix util name
01:01:04 <Moon__> A language im working on
01:01:11 <Moon__> Not a one char command
01:01:20 <hppavilion[1]> One of the ones I thought of that I particularly like is Gaussian Chess
01:01:29 <Moon__> Kinda like a data processer
01:01:42 <Moon__> Takes in data, does something to it, spits it out
01:01:50 <oerjan> `8ball Are chess variants like the BF derivative of board games?
01:02:00 <Moon__> I wrote a brainfuck intepreter in it for proof of concept: http://pastebin.com/raw/680vBM4U
01:02:11 <Moon__> And turing completeness
01:02:27 <Phantom__Hoover> ironically you aren't actually parsing the brainfuck input like you should
01:02:52 <Moon__> It goes throught the code one char at a time
01:03:24 -!- spiette has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:03:43 <Moon__> next means just ignore it
01:03:51 <Moon__> and go to the next char
01:04:23 <hppavilion[1]> But with the additional allowance that, instead of moving a piece, you may take the abs() of a piece or the sum or product of two pieces, where such an operation produces a piece with the position of the abs/sum/product of its inputs when they are treated as rank+file*i
01:04:33 <Phantom__Hoover> whereas i would argue that [] loops are a syntactic construct and should be treated as such
01:05:07 <Moon__> Well, my language is turing complete at least
01:05:11 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom__Hoover: I actually made a quite nice extension using the stack model (didn't publish it because it was a BF derivative)
01:05:29 <Phantom__Hoover> i.e. the implementation should scan through the program and construct an AST of normal instructions and loops containing blocks of normal instructions
01:05:33 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom__Hoover: [] behaves as normal, and {} are like [] except they do nothing but serve as labels
01:06:01 <hppavilion[1]> [] is while, {] is do-while, [} is if-then, {} is... well, that's just do
01:06:12 <oerjan> actually the "Use defines" command is sort of esoteric, i think.
01:06:13 <Phantom__Hoover> Moon__, at the very least an implementation like that would demonstrate interesting data manipulation, rather than just iteration on an array
01:06:32 <hppavilion[1]> It's basically scope, but BF doesn't exactly do scope, so it's useless
01:06:51 <Phantom__Hoover> even then, the brackets match each other and should be parsed
01:07:18 <Moon__> i beleive they wrk, only a function interpreter could prove me wrong
01:07:19 <hppavilion[1]> Moon__: Does it crash if the brackets don't match? As in, a surplus of leading brackets?
01:07:42 <Moon__> The lex implentation should prevent running off the file
01:08:23 <Moon__> Thats up to the person who implents it, really
01:08:30 <hppavilion[1]> Moon__: But does it crash if there are extra [s that DON'T try to look for their partner (e.g. if they're always prefixed with [-])?
01:09:08 <Moon__> It will stop, yes, but the intepreter wont full crash
01:09:17 <Phantom__Hoover> it's about properly acknowledging the structure of the interpreted program, and making your interpreter implement something more interesting than the bog standard interpreter that everyone's written in C
01:09:27 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom__Hoover: I'm a fan of BF's stack strategy- they're a syntactic construct to a naive onlooker, yes, but if you can get away without parsing, goodonya
01:10:18 <Moon__> if someone wanted ,they could use 'on error <errorname>' constructs to handle errors like that
01:10:22 <oerjan> if you don't parse you're doomed to get quadratic overhead on looping
01:10:42 <oerjan> um maybe quadratic is the wrong word
01:10:55 <tswett> Hey, can all y'all guys access a webpage at this URL? http://nlp.stanford.edu:8080/parser/
01:11:29 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: it's not constant if a large loop is frequently skipped
01:11:59 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Yes, or we live in an oppressive regime and didn't notice the transition
01:12:01 <Moon__> Someone could write the parsar too, easy
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01:12:20 <Moon__> im not done with the specs
01:12:39 <Moon__> but they could use loops and 'replace with <char>' for that
01:13:23 <Moon__> what i wrote was a proof of turing completeness, really
01:14:11 <hppavilion[1]> Moon__: If you can make a parser in it, the language will be provably interesting
01:14:33 <Moon__> True, ill make something
01:16:06 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/Mexico/all Mexico/' wisdom/hackego
01:16:11 <oerjan> didn't get it quite right
01:16:21 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in all Mexico!
01:17:33 <Moon__> The only problem with writing a parsar is im lazy :P
01:18:00 <shachaf> there's a unix utility that can help with that hth
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01:18:46 <shachaf> oerjan: "tdnh" is not in my lexicon hth
01:19:15 <oerjan> also, lex cannot parse brackets, can it?
01:19:30 <oerjan> it's regexp-based, you need yacc/bison.
01:20:09 <Moon__> 'run external command @echo off
01:20:29 <Moon__> thats a theoretical lex command :P
01:20:59 <oerjan> Moon__: sounds unlikely, since @echo off is the kind of thing you _don't_ implement externally.
01:21:03 <shachaf> oerjan: i said it can help, not that it'll do the whole job for you
01:21:09 <shachaf> and also i didn't name a utility
01:21:19 <hppavilion[1]> Dinosaur Comics: "THIS COMIC WILL NOT BE DISPLAYED TWICE"
01:21:21 <oerjan> although someone here manage to make an external cd, so...
01:22:07 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: "with a different text" hth
01:22:07 <Moon__> would you all try writing in lex?
01:22:45 <hppavilion[1]> Moon__: Make the language interesting and we will gravitate towards it
01:23:09 <oerjan> Moon__ is going through the try-to-make-others-use-his-language phase. soon, the despair.
01:25:11 <Moon__> *is a electric badmitten racket maniac*
01:25:27 <Moon__> *trying to electricute flys*
01:25:37 <oerjan> so mad he forgets /me again
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01:38:35 <izabera> how do you deal with spam on the eso wiki?
01:38:54 <oerjan> there's a captcha and a spam filter
01:39:50 <oerjan> the spam filter is rules handcrafted by ais523
01:40:40 -!- Moon__ has quit (Quit: jIRCii - http://www.oldschoolirc.com).
01:40:56 <oerjan> no. because bots don't understand proper wiki formatting, nearly all have strange but obvious things like <br> instead of newlines
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01:43:58 <oerjan> so afaik there are no filters based on what the spammers try to advertise.
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01:46:00 <oerjan> izabera: well those spammers that bother to hire out to a human captcha solver get through anyway.
01:46:59 <oerjan> last autumn or so some of them did that. but after ais523 updated the filters again, those held.
01:47:38 <oerjan> izabera: we were sort of running an experiment where we were using just _one_ captcha. and until last autumn that was pretty good.
01:47:56 <oerjan> (it just occasionally had to be changed, but just one.)
01:48:09 <oerjan> not automatically, no.
01:48:59 <izabera> that probably doesn't scale too well
01:49:19 <oerjan> indeed. it was entirely based on the principle that we're too small to target specifically.
01:49:49 <oerjan> (if not, the filters probably would have been got around too)
01:53:07 <Moon_> i have decided to write a chatbot in C++
02:00:26 <Moon_> No reinventing the wheel, ill start from a skeleton, add the meat
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02:10:50 <lifthrasiir> making a skeleton generally classifies as reinventing the wheel :)
02:11:28 <lifthrasiir> but well, if you know enough C++11 and have boost at hands, not *that* hard I guess
02:22:47 <Moon_> Anyone feel like (code)golfing?
02:25:26 <oerjan> i think the golfers are currently busy doing laver tables in binary lambda calculus.
02:27:07 <Moon_> i was thinking about challanging you all to write a brainfuck intepreter in the esolang of your choise
02:27:38 <lifthrasiir> I have a programming language that is basically identical to brainfuck except that the empty program is a self-interpreter.
02:27:39 <Moon_> as small as possible
02:27:52 <Moon_> id call that cheating :P
02:28:28 <Moon_> just dont use cheaty ones and im ok with it
02:28:49 <lifthrasiir> no, it is a rule-bending. after all golfing across different languages is... uh... not really worth arguing.
02:29:30 <shachaf> lifthrasiir: Game of life language?
02:29:55 <quintopia> Moon_: you think to compare cross-lang to get shortest interp?
02:30:56 <quintopia> i can't think what would be the best lang for that purpose
02:31:09 <quintopia> i wonder how long a jelly interp would be
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02:32:35 <Moon_> http://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/27364/esoteric-programming-languages
02:33:50 <quintopia> the 103 byte simplex solution is the shortest one i can find
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02:34:13 <quintopia> Moon_: that chat has very sporadic activity
02:35:52 <lifthrasiir> Brian Raiter had 166-byte-long ELF binary (!) for BF interp http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/bf.asm.txt
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02:37:42 <tromp> Moon_: 103 bytes barely beats my Binary Lambda Calculus one
02:38:14 <tromp> which is 5 bits longer
02:38:48 <oerjan> can we just declare BLC to be cheating and get it over with >:)
02:39:08 <oerjan> tromp: it's TOO GOOD hth
02:39:58 <shachaf> 22:41:09 <shachaf> tromp: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_lambda_calculus says that Haskell-style I/O requires a type system, but that isn't true.
02:40:01 <shachaf> 22:41:59 <shachaf> Not that BLC would benefit from Haskell-style I/O, for the things it's typically used for.
02:40:32 <tromp> how would you do Haskell style IO shachaf?
02:41:06 <tromp> extend the lambda calculus with readbit and writebit primitives?
02:41:30 <shachaf> For example with an a sum type like data IO = ReadBit (Bool -> IO) | WriteBit Bool IO | Done
02:41:41 <shachaf> Or you can make it a monad if you want to.
02:41:51 <tromp> that's not untyped then?!
02:41:56 <shachaf> Of course you'd have to encode it in lambdas.
02:42:20 <oerjan> just use original haskell 1.0 hth
02:42:33 <shachaf> But the type system isn't really what prevents Haskell programs from mixing up "IO a" and "a", which is what that entry looked like it suggested.
02:42:47 <shachaf> oerjan: haskell 1.0 doesn't exist hth
02:42:57 <tromp> the type sysmtem is needed to serialize io primitives
02:43:16 <shachaf> If you can encode a list, you can encode this type.
02:43:52 <tromp> you need to prevent things like writebit applied to writebit
02:45:00 <tromp> also, you dont want order of io operations to depend on order of evaluation
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02:46:03 <shachaf> I wrote about this a bit in http://stackoverflow.com/a/13538351
02:46:55 <shachaf> When you encode a list in lambda calculus, do you need to prevent things like cons applied to a non-list?
02:46:56 <oerjan> shachaf: https://www.google.no/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj4zdWEsc7MAhUK2SwKHWtSA0YQFggbMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.haskell.org%2Fdefinition%2Fhaskell-report-1.0.ps.gz&usg=AFQjCNERSb6UmbpF5lvDfv5V3HZsJsVKlg&bvm=bv.121099550,bs.1,d.bGg
02:47:12 <oerjan> stupid google doesn't let me link directly without opening it
02:47:22 <shachaf> it was meant to be a joke about old things not existing
02:47:28 <shachaf> but i didn't really think it through
02:47:43 <oerjan> MAYBE YOUR THOUGHT DIDN'T EXIST, HUH?
02:48:10 <shachaf> or maybe it existed so much that it wrapped around to not existing
02:48:28 <shachaf> more than you'll ever exist
02:48:33 <HackEgo> Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers.
02:49:59 <oerjan> . o O ( a solipsistic AI simulation )
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02:51:23 <oerjan> are you going to drag pål-ørjan into this, i had almost forgot the guy
02:53:11 <oerjan> looks like he has a twitter https://twitter.com/po_johansen
02:56:32 <oerjan> ...and a norwegian wikipedia page.
02:57:41 <tromp> thx for the link shachaf, will slowly digest that
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03:00:14 <shachaf> oerjan: wow, even i don't have a norwegian wikipedia page
03:00:35 <shachaf> https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/2ywf4a
03:01:14 <shachaf> "Please note, Pål and Teri do not have PhDs."
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03:02:41 <shachaf> oerjan: maybe you can publish a joint paper about lsd homology
03:02:57 <shachaf> well, i guess a joint paper would be about a different drug
03:05:52 <shachaf> oerjan: how come harald didn't name his son pål
03:06:15 <tromp> shachaf: nice write-up, but i don't see how to implement any of your approaches without types
03:06:19 <oerjan> i don't think pål is a traditional royal name
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03:07:03 <shachaf> well, this one would be principål
03:07:26 <\oren\> content delivery networks are the webs of the spiderdemon
03:07:33 <shachaf> tromp: I don't see what types have to do with it.
03:08:18 <tromp> ContIO = Exit | PutStrLn String ContIO | GetLine (String -> ContIO) | ... is a type
03:08:30 <shachaf> Yes, and data List a = Nil | Cons a (List a) is a type.
03:08:39 <shachaf> But you can implement lists even in untyped lambda calculus.
03:09:19 <tromp> but you cannot constrain lists in untyped lc
03:09:48 <tromp> PutStrLn needs to constrain its argument to be a string
03:10:05 <shachaf> And Cons needs to constrain its second argument to be a list.
03:10:07 <\oren\> there are two doors between me and my wireless router. my internet is fastest when both are closed.
03:10:18 <\oren\> THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE
03:12:10 <tromp> show me an alternative definition of BLC with IO primitives
03:13:47 <tromp> and then we can discuss its semantics
03:14:56 <\oren\> maybe there's some weird geometry in my house that causes the signal to cancel itself out???
03:17:30 <shachaf> There are lots of possible encodings in lambda calculus.
03:18:46 <shachaf> Encode Exit as (\e w r -> e); WriteBit b k as (\e w r -> w b more); ReadBit k as (\e w r -> r k)
03:18:47 <tromp> i just need readbit and writebit
03:19:35 <shachaf> I guess that's the Scott encoding.
03:20:34 <tromp> you lost me alrd:(
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03:21:32 <oerjan> \oren\: feng shui poltergeist hth
03:21:37 <shachaf> OK, how would you encode a program that generates a list of bits as output?
03:22:58 <tromp> in my model, any closed lambda term is a program that does binary IO
03:23:31 <tromp> the input bit stream is represented as a list of booleans to which the term is applied
03:23:50 <shachaf> How do you represent a list?
03:24:26 <tromp> cons = \M\N. \z. z M N
03:25:12 <shachaf> How do you terminate a list?
03:26:26 <shachaf> OK. Would you believe the encoding "cons = \M\N. \c\n. c M N"; "nil = \c\n. n"?
03:26:47 <shachaf> I.e., to consume a list cell, you pass it what to do in the nil case and in the cons case.
03:28:32 <shachaf> OK, so I'm doing the same thing.
03:28:56 <tromp> i just dont call that monadic IO
03:29:44 <shachaf> I didn't say it was monadic, though you can make it a monad easily enough if you want to.
03:30:32 <tromp> i claimed that having readbit as a *primitive* of the lambda calculus language requires a type system
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03:32:03 <shachaf> Maybe we're just talking about different things.
03:32:33 <tromp> i thought we're talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_lambda_calculus#Binary_I.2FO
03:33:18 <tromp> where i contrast my approach to IO with that of Chaitin
03:33:27 <shachaf> "unless one distinguishes between an I/O action and its result, as Haskell does with its monadic I/O"
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03:33:42 <shachaf> I'm just saying that the type system isn't what distinguishes between an I/O action and its result.
03:33:52 <shachaf> They're just completely different things.
03:34:12 <shachaf> The type system distinguishes between strings and integers, sure, but even without the type system they'd be different things.
03:34:59 <tromp> i said that a readbit *primitive* with monadic semantics requires a type system
03:35:25 <shachaf> OK. Perhaps I just misunderstood.
03:35:32 <shachaf> Though I think "monadic" is a red herring anyway.
03:36:03 <tromp> you can omit the word monadic there
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03:37:23 <Cale> It would be good for more languages to make a distinction between IO action values and their results, even in the absence of type systems, and even in the absence of being able to abstract over the choice of a monad.
03:45:26 <tromp> i use the word monadic to emphasize that distinction, but the "requires type system" refers to readbit being a language primitive
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03:49:15 <coppro> Cale: why IO specifically and not other side effects?
03:49:28 <coppro> since side effects could indirectly have IO effects
03:50:23 <Cale> coppro: Well, IO is the stuff that you want some sort of support in the language implementation to interpret.
03:50:59 <Cale> It's perfectly possible to carve out a subclass of pure lambda terms which encode IO actions
03:51:24 <Cale> But without some sort of interpreter underneath which is going to carry out the effects, it doesn't really do much for you.
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03:53:16 <coppro> Cale: hmm... I'm not sure I agree
03:53:38 <coppro> you do need language implementation (or library implementation) support
03:53:52 <coppro> but I'm not sure that that's a reason to make a distinction
03:54:06 <coppro> integer addition requires implementation support as well
03:54:13 <Cale> Oh, you mean, "why is it a good idea to distinguish IO actions like we do in Haskell"?
03:54:33 <coppro> ohhhh, I misread what you said
03:55:17 <coppro> yeah, I'd still ask why not do that for any function with side effects
03:55:41 <Cale> Well, obviously we'd rather not have arbitrary side effects at the same time
03:56:01 <Cale> The idea is just to encode effects as values of a particular type
03:56:02 <coppro> can you give an example, perhaps?
03:58:04 <Cale> Well, you know how things work in Haskell, right? We have this separate parametric data type, IO t, representing actions which can be carried out and which may have arbitrary effects, before resulting in a value of type t if they succeed.
03:59:36 <Cale> You can think of such a value as consisting of some sort of encoding of what to do in what order in terms of various primitive I/O actions. It's possible to represent that entirely with a pure lambda term, taking the I/O primitives and bind, and return as arguments, and sticking them together somehow.
04:00:35 <Cale> Not that you'd *need* to do this in an arbitrary other language -- just to say that as soon as your language is expressive enough to have lambda terms, it's expressive enough to represent IO actions purely.
04:01:42 <coppro> I guess I don't really see the benefit in a language not built around purity
04:01:56 <Cale> Having such a concept is nice because it lets you not worry about effects during evaluation -- you have this separate notion of the execution of one of these IO actions, where the thing is taken apart and the steps described are carried out
04:02:37 <Cale> Well, it gives you a really nice formulaic way to pull a bunch of messy stuff out of the description of evaluation.
04:02:52 <Cale> So in some sense, it's all about making the language more pure
04:03:04 <Cale> But my point is that it really doesn't *require* a type system
04:03:04 <coppro> I guess I was just thinking of trying to staple that onto, say, an OO language
04:03:29 <Cale> It probably requires lambdas to not pull your hair out in anguish
04:03:40 <shachaf> Cale: You're making a similar point to the one I was making a few pages up, I think.
04:03:43 <coppro> that would be a neat esolang actually
04:03:43 <Cale> You're going to want something akin to bind and/or do-notation anyway
04:03:57 <Cale> shachaf: I'm basically rephrasing what you were talking about
04:04:11 <shachaf> With more emphasis on monads, maybe.
04:04:24 <shachaf> I don't know that you get that much benefit out of having a monadic interface.
04:05:41 <Cale> Well, you need *some* ways to glue these IO actions together. I hesitate to say that providing return and bind as operations is really giving you "monads" in any real sense, because the whole story about abstracting over a choice of monad is still lots more work.
04:06:21 <Cale> But yeah, if you prefer to glue together IO actions in some other ways, then those are fine too
04:06:51 <shachaf> Well, the type you would get is a monad, whether or not you recognize it.
04:08:11 <Cale> Yeah -- though recognising it may not have much use if it doesn't let you write code which will work with any monad and reuse it.
04:10:27 <Cale> Like, people implement Maybe or State in various other languages, and they implement the monad operations for them, but I would resist the notion that they're "programming with monads" just for having done so -- the point at which you really start to use monads is when you write something like sequence or liftM2 and have it work for all the monads you'll ever define.
04:10:55 <shachaf> People's implementations of Maybe are often scow because they collapse Nothing and Just Nothing.
04:11:04 <Cale> Yeah, that too
04:11:17 <Cale> btw, did you know that Aeson's JSON encoding of Maybe does that?
04:11:44 <Cale> I didn't, until information started getting destroyed in transit between my web frontend and backend
04:11:44 <shachaf> I guess it kind of fits with the JSON model.
04:12:42 <\oren\> shachaf: Maybe Nothing is a stupid type
04:12:42 <coppro> partly because of its genesis in javascript
04:12:54 <shachaf> \oren\: But it's a great value.
04:13:10 <coppro> JavaScript can't really distinguish between an explicit and implicit null
04:13:22 <coppro> at least, not without effort
04:13:26 <Cale> We use the Template Haskell stuff to write all our ToJSON/FromJSON instances for both the frontend and backend of our apps, and so mostly don't have to worry about how anything is being encoded
04:13:37 <lambdabot> The first argument of ‘Maybe’ should have kind ‘*’,
04:13:37 <lambdabot> In a type in a GHCi command: Maybe Nothing
04:13:50 <coppro> Cale: IIRC the Maybe Nothing thing was an accident rather than by design, wasn't it?
04:14:03 <Cale> coppro: Yeah, well, kinda
04:14:18 <coppro> Cale: I mean, how would you otherwise distinguish them in JSON?
04:14:28 <coppro> since the default encoding of Maybe Foo is either as null or a Foo
04:14:29 <Cale> coppro: They should be records with a tag
04:14:39 <coppro> that doesn't match common usage at all though
04:14:46 <Cale> Aeson has template haskell code which will construct instances for an arbitrary algebraic data type
04:14:58 <Cale> they should have just used the TH code to write the instances, and everything would be good :)
04:15:03 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘Maybe’
04:15:03 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant variable ‘maybe’ (imported from Data.Maybe)
04:15:06 <Cale> > Just Nothing
04:15:10 <coppro> because then they wouldn't have a way to deserialize null
04:15:57 <coppro> Cale: like, if it was a record with a tag, so would the inside
04:15:58 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘Maybe a1 -> t’
04:15:58 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘Maybe (a0 -> Maybe a0)’
04:15:58 <lambdabot> The function ‘Just’ is applied to two arguments,
04:16:11 <\oren\> :t Just (Just Nothing)
04:16:24 <Cale> coppro: Well, I suppose I'm in a bit of a special position. We're using Haskell all the way through the applications I'm working on, so we don't actually *care* what the JSON looks like, so long as it's a faithful representation of the Haskell values.
04:16:25 <coppro> so you'd have { "isNull": "false", "value": { "isNull": "false", "value": "something" } }
04:16:39 <coppro> Cale: yeah, that's an unusual use case
04:17:01 <\oren\> hey i Just met you, and this is crazy, so here's my Number, so call me Maybe
04:17:09 <coppro> being able to understand nulls for a datatype is important for things like JSON merge-patch
04:17:23 <Cale> But yeah, the problem is that Just x can't be encoded the same way as x
04:17:33 <Cale> It needs *some* kind of wrapper
04:17:40 <coppro> it can *except* if x is itself a Maybe
04:17:51 <coppro> if x itself has a null value
04:18:00 <coppro> Aeson's model is that Maybe should be the only thing with a null value though
04:18:24 <Cale> Yeah, I suppose you could do a bunch of awful type class nonsense to try to express which types have a JSON encoding that encodes something as null
04:18:43 <coppro> you *could* define types like MaybeFoo = NoFoo | HasFoo Foo and serialize them "correctly"
04:18:54 <Cale> Yeah, I ended up using Either ()
04:19:51 <coppro> I think I recall that conversation actually, now that I think about it
04:20:00 <coppro> there's an iso anyway :P
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04:20:15 <Cale> Yeah, it's just a really annoying gotcha
04:24:18 <Cale> I'd expect that in most cases where you had some particular JSON format you wanted to match, you'd be defining your own types to represent its values, and writing the ToJSON and FromJSON by hand anyway, and so you might as well handle the nulls yourself then.
04:24:38 <Cale> (rather than having the Maybe instance do it for you)
04:25:26 <coppro> I think that's unlikely
04:25:44 <coppro> I think the more realistic case is that you would have Maybe handle it
04:26:08 <coppro> since it would be thins like "this field is either a string or null"
04:27:04 <Cale> You could still have some explicit "nullable" JSON parser combinator, which does that
04:27:21 <Cale> But I dunno, I don't think of Maybe as being the same thing as nullable.
04:28:29 <shachaf> I think realizing the importance of things like Just Nothing vs. Nothing is one of the benefits you get from learning Haskell.
04:30:07 <Cale> In my case, it came up sort of semi-automatically (it would have been in a case where the type to use would have been determined by associated types, but we hadn't yet got to the point of automating it when I ran into the problem)
04:30:25 <coppro> Cale: I think the use cases of nullables and Maybe are pretty similar
04:30:35 <Cale> Basically, the thing was regarding representing patches to a Map k v as values of type Map k (Maybe v)
04:31:08 <Cale> (this isn't a perfect encoding in general, since you'd really want that to involve a type representing a patch to a v, but regardless...)
04:31:37 <Cale> When v happened to already be Maybe t, this mysteriously fell over at runtime
04:31:53 <Cale> and it was quite hard to track down what the heck was happening
04:32:37 <Elronnd> I'm thinking of writing an extension to brainfuck -- would it be against the spirit of bf to add a single cell that can hold strings, for file handling and env variables?d
04:32:46 <Cale> (would have been harder still if the type class machinery for representing patches that we have now was in place)
04:33:28 <Cale> But yeah, it sucks a bit needing to be careful that these type level programs which compute the types of patches don't accidentally put two Maybe's in a row
04:33:56 <coppro> Cale: yeah, I feel like the "correct" solution there from a usability + workingness perspective would be to identify some types as supporting explicit nulls so that you can serialize them appropriately
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04:34:18 <Cale> I think the correct solution is just to treat Maybe as you would any other algebraic data type
04:34:18 <coppro> the more JSON-y way would probably be null vs. { "value": null } vs. { "value": value }
04:34:31 <Cale> The TH instance is *fine*
04:34:32 <coppro> that sucks for common users now
04:34:52 <Cale> I don't think I agree -- note that it's only the *default* behaviour for Maybe
04:35:11 <coppro> I'm Joe Stupid trying to use Aeson, I have a field which is encoded as either null or an integer
04:35:47 <coppro> I try "Maybe Integer" but it always gives an error. I try "Integer" but it can't deserialize null. I give up and go use JavaScirpt.
04:36:15 <Cale> We can still provide something like parseNullable :: Value -> Parser (Maybe a)
04:36:34 <coppro> but now I have to explicitly write my To/FromJson instances
04:36:37 <Cale> well, parseNullable :: (FromJSON a) => Value -> Parser (Maybe a)
04:37:08 <Cale> yeah, well, if you care about the precise JSON representation, it makes sense to be doing that anyway
04:37:09 <shachaf> Cale: how come sql doesn't have let ... in ...
04:37:19 <shachaf> how do people live without it
04:37:19 <Cale> shachaf: because it's scow?
04:38:05 <coppro> Cale: I don't think that's the point of Aeson, though.
04:38:06 <Cale> If you're at all interested in writing a new database, I have a few feature requests :P
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04:39:27 <Cale> I really want a database with which my application can register a query in a semi-permanent fashion, and any time that a transaction commits which might affect the result of that query, the DB sends my application a diff of the results.
04:39:43 <coppro> oh apparently someone opened an issue
04:39:44 <coppro> https://github.com/bos/aeson/issues/376
04:39:44 <shachaf> Cale: http://www.rethinkdb.com/ hth
04:40:01 <shachaf> (I worked at that company a few years ago, though it was a very different database back then.)
04:40:20 <coppro> Cale: oh wait that's you
04:40:28 <coppro> Cale: maybe that wasn't you who I remember complaining about it then
04:40:35 <coppro> I recall this discussion quite a while back
04:40:37 <Cale> shachaf: Oh, yeah, I also want it to be statically typed.
04:40:42 <Cale> coppro: Yeah, that was me :)
04:40:50 <shachaf> Well, obviously you would want that.
04:41:16 <Cale> shachaf: and I want sum typed columns
04:41:44 <Cale> e.g. "this column is a primary key of table A, B, or C, and we know which"
04:41:56 <shachaf> You mean that the value at a particular column is sum typed, or that you have one of a set of possible sets of columns?
04:42:13 <Cale> The value at a particular column
04:42:41 <Cale> and then the query language needs to be able to case on that information obviously
04:43:17 <coppro> might have been when I was lurking #yesod
04:43:45 <Cale> coppro: Well, I had most of this conversation in the bug ticket :)
04:44:06 <Cale> I don't hang out in #yesod, so it wouldn't have been there
04:44:18 <Cale> I might've mentioned it in #haskell at the time
04:44:27 <shachaf> Cale: What do you think about protobufs?
04:44:44 <shachaf> The interesting thing about them is that they let you change a data type and keep backwards compatibility.
04:44:53 <Cale> shachaf: I don't know enough about them to have a strong opinion
04:45:03 <shachaf> Which is somewhat in contrast to the Haskell philosophy of having a type be able represent exactly the values you want and no more.
04:45:50 <shachaf> I'm not sure how to reconcile the two.
04:46:16 <coppro> Cale: I don't think it was you, since it was definitely IRC and many months ago
04:46:23 <coppro> Cale: the JSON merge-patch spec is actually a great example of JSON null conflation
04:46:33 <coppro> common usage of JSON treats null weird
04:47:07 <\oren\> we use a sort of typed json at my work. the json is parsed into C++ a struct
04:47:18 <Cale> coppro: If people want to shoot themselves in the foot by conflating Nothing and Just Nothing, there probably should be a way to do it, but I don't think it should be the default thing
04:47:38 <\oren\> and if it doesn't mathc the layout, it throws a character pointer
04:47:41 <Cale> coppro: You could also make a newtype for it.
04:48:05 <Cale> (and put a big warning label on it regarding what happens when you nest them)
04:48:24 <shachaf> Protobufs are certainly a better way to do communication and serialization than JSON for a lot of things.
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04:49:36 <\oren\> i forget where I was going with this
04:51:21 <Cale> shachaf: In our case, the thing we really need some sort of migration strategies for is with respect to the database (this is the main reason we're using groundhog, which is a library very similar to persistent, and I don't really understand the differences), moreso than the stuff we use JSON for.
04:51:41 <Cale> We *could* be just using Binary instances :)
04:52:38 <Cale> It's just nice that when something goes wrong, the browser can show you the JSON and it's somewhat readable, if ugly.
04:52:39 <shachaf> Google's use case for protobufs is approximately everything.
04:52:44 <shachaf> Including RPC, for instance.
04:54:59 <coppro> Cale: I agree that it shouldn't allowed
04:55:17 <coppro> I like the idea of forbidding nesting and leaving the instance more than I like the idea of changin gthe instance
04:55:56 <coppro> because the other instance is usually the correct one
04:56:08 <coppro> anything else is asking for unnecessary gymnastics on the user's part
04:56:12 <Cale> coppro: I sort of agree with you from the perspective of "what's most convenient for existing users", but I have half a mind just to fork the entire library to fix the thing :)
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05:14:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Elronnd]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46989 * Elronnd * (+115) Created
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05:21:01 <\oren\> goddamn ksp changing their wheel physics
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05:34:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Elronnd/brainfcuk]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46990 * Elronnd * (+2905) First steps
05:39:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Elronnd/brainfcuk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46991&oldid=46990 * Elronnd * (+32) update
05:41:47 <shachaf> ski: Do you know the type zzo38 calls CodensityAsk?
05:42:30 <ski> i haven't seen it
05:43:00 <shachaf> newtype CodensityAsk f a = CodensityAsk { runCodensityAsk :: forall r. f r -> (a -> r) -> r }
05:45:47 <shachaf> zzo38 points out that CodensityAsk ((->) x) = Either x; CodensityAsk (Const x) = ((->) x); CodensityAsk Endo = Writer (Sum Natural); CodensityAsk Finalize = Identity; CodensityAsk Identity = Maybe
05:46:04 <shachaf> Where Finalize = Proxy, I guess.
05:46:55 <oerjan> hm was that the one we discussed adapting the (co?)yoneda lemma to?
05:47:12 <oerjan> in order to show those equivalences
05:48:01 <oerjan> hm maybe it was something differnet.
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05:48:31 <oerjan> (some typos refuse to be fixed)
05:49:08 <shachaf> maybe you're thinking of dithernet
05:49:16 <shachaf> like ethernet, but with more dithering
05:50:01 <oerjan> i recall (x,x) was represented using Bool
05:51:03 <oerjan> hm i think it was some connection between expressing a functor f in terms of f ()
05:52:09 <oerjan> anyway it involved something yonedal
05:54:44 <ski> shachaf : <https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Structured_Query_Language/with_clause>
05:55:14 <shachaf> fizzie: Actually I wish Dremel had let.
05:56:45 <pikhq> I assume you're not talking about the Dremel I'm thinking of.
05:57:17 <pikhq> Not to my knowledge.
05:57:31 <pikhq> Don't have access to the docs for it, but don't think so.
05:57:43 <pikhq> I assume dumb things all the time.
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06:06:27 <ski> shachaf : ok ?
06:06:53 <shachaf> I thought it was pretty neat, is all.
06:07:02 <shachaf> It's related to adjunctions somehow, I think.
06:07:39 <shachaf> After all, you know the definition of free objects that goes newtype Thing k a = Thing { runThing :: forall r. k a => (a -> r) -> r }
06:07:49 <ski> <shachaf> Cale: how come sql doesn't have let ... in ...
06:08:00 <ski> my link was in response to that ^
06:08:34 <shachaf> Except a class can have laws and a type presumably doesn't.
06:10:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Elronnd/brainfcuk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46992&oldid=46991 * Elronnd * (+1688) file handling
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08:25:32 <fizzie> fungot: Will you, yourself, bring an end to all?
08:25:33 <fungot> fizzie: i was just dropping by and told the message about increasing the stack size a while ago back when we were playing around with variable allocation to attempt to solve impossible problems
08:26:05 <fizzie> Well, I'm guessing that's as good an approach as any to solve impossible problems.
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08:34:23 <fungot> shachaf: but if another program will halt or not
08:34:46 <shachaf> fungot: you just worry about yourself halting or not. let us worry about other programs.
08:34:46 <fungot> shachaf: maybe so that the c literature doesn't use that many scheme primitives, only, max and make-string.
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08:50:48 <fizzie> fungot: Do you have a halting oracle?
08:50:49 <fungot> fizzie: i could allocate esoapi a fnord of a
08:58:13 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
08:58:31 <oerjan> fungot: what about using a sword?
08:58:32 <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you!
08:59:03 <oerjan> fungot: well sort of evil.
08:59:03 <fungot> oerjan: as long as you keep crono in your heart, the day of lavos"... go to " leene square" 1000 a.d.? yes, i'd have done something very brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
08:59:27 <oerjan> fungot: peace would be nice.
08:59:27 <fungot> oerjan: your majesty! and queen. he and a friend left on a journey 10, then magic damage will be reduced by 10%. a star after any characteristic means it's at maximum strength! no matter what the price! it is, you idiot! hey! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have? transform! this trading house. it's t
08:59:56 <oerjan> fungot: ah. better to drop the sword, then.
08:59:56 <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you!
09:00:02 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
09:17:36 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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10:38:55 <izabera> what's the closest alternative to google code search?
10:39:57 <lifthrasiir> izabera: rsc had a standalone version of google code search I think?
10:41:52 <izabera> but i want other people's code
10:42:57 <izabera> reading that imagemagick thing made me wonder how many projects call system() without proper input sanitization
10:48:18 <Taneb> ImageMagick thing?
10:49:01 <izabera> imagemagick is stupid and it calls system(something) with user input in it
10:49:14 <Taneb> I mean, I'd believe it
10:51:02 <Taneb> I'm glad that this doesn't (directly) affect me
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11:36:54 <HackEgo> snow//Snow is Jesus's dandruffs, and some suspect that he is the son of Rhaegar Targeryan. It turns the sidewalks to white as if someone broke a lot of styrofoam on it.
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11:42:47 <Taneb> `learn styrofoam is Taneb's only weakness.
11:42:58 <HackEgo> Learned 'styrofoam': styrofoam is Taneb's only weakness.
11:46:19 <izabera> https://i.imgur.com/wAI1Jwm.jpg
11:47:48 <Taneb> izabera, from a certain point of view, that's very logical, although symptomatic of skewed priorities
11:49:15 <boily> Tanelle. the sound, the smell, the touch of it makes you feel wrong?
11:49:16 <fizzie> There's grepcode.com, but it's only for Java stuff.
11:50:45 <Taneb> boily, the sound, mostly
11:50:53 <Taneb> The touch, too, to a lesser extent
11:51:23 <Taneb> If I buy something in styrofoam, I have to get someone else to unpack it while I'm in a different room
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13:07:23 <fizzie> kernel:[957239.928577] BUG: soft lockup - CPU#1 stuck for 21s! [nginx:632]
13:08:27 <fizzie> There's 61 umlbox processes all fighting for CPU time.
13:08:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: reboot: not found
13:08:52 <b_jonas> maybe it's a hard disk failure or a disk hard failure??
13:10:02 <fizzie> Not having much luck there.
13:10:41 <b_jonas> `slashlearn high hat/A high hat is the same as a top hat, not the same as a hi-hat, just like how a top quark is not the same as an up quark.
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14:16:52 <b_jonas> there should be something in there about those operating systems
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14:21:06 <impomatic> Some kind of bitcoin inspired capture the flag programming game http://hackcha.in/
14:42:27 <int-e> . o O ( does it hurd when I say this? )
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14:46:01 <int-e> `learn Plan9 is the precursor to Inferno, home of the Limbo programming language.
14:46:09 <HackEgo> Learned 'plan9': Plan9 is the precursor to Inferno, home of the Limbo programming language.
14:47:03 <int-e> hmm, let's tweak it a bit.
14:47:11 <int-e> `learn Plan9 is the precursor to Dante's Inferno, home of the Limbo programming language.
14:47:16 <HackEgo> Relearned 'plan9': Plan9 is the precursor to Dante's Inferno, home of the Limbo programming language.
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14:53:14 <b_jonas> wtf, so in C, the "%n" conversion takes type modifiers like "%zn" or "%hhn"?
14:56:14 <vanila> %n is absolute ridiculous
14:57:12 <vanila> I guess worse is just the fact format strings need not be statically known
15:01:23 <b_jonas> no, %n is totally useful. but %hhn is ridiculous. why is that even allowed?
15:03:43 <b_jonas> vanila: when I want to test if a sscanf match is successful, or consumed all of a string. for the former, it's easier to use than the return value of sscanf, because you don't have to count format entries in the pattern when writing the source code. for the latter, it's absolutely necessary.
15:04:19 <vanila> ah thats a nice techinique, i was only thinking about printf
15:04:35 <b_jonas> yes, for printf it's not very useful
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15:06:33 <prooftechnique> I've been trying to contrive a use for %hhn, but so far I have nothing
15:06:52 <b_jonas> prooftechnique: you can probably find some eso-use
15:07:39 <prooftechnique> I'm just trying to imagine what the motivation was for having it in printf
15:08:35 <b_jonas> prooftechnique: I think it's just so that sscanf handles writing integers uniformly, converting them to the right integer type regardless if the conversion is any of diouxXn
15:08:50 <b_jonas> the rules would have been uglier otherwise
15:09:07 <b_jonas> and then in sprintf, it would be strange to disallow it if sscanf allows it
15:35:04 <FreeFull> %n is useful for exploiting C programs that give input strings directly to pritnf
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16:24:27 <fizzie> You kinda-sorta can use %n with sprintf to save one extra strlen call, if you, say, print a number, and need to know how long it was.
16:25:53 <ybden> Hmm, that's a thought
16:28:28 <fizzie> Well, okay, you get *that* via the return value as well. But maybe you might conceivably need to know the lengths of some substrings.
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17:21:25 <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> no. because bots don't understand proper wiki formatting, nearly all have strange but obvious things like <br> instead of newlines
17:21:39 <Phantom_Hoover> you do need to do <br> to do single-line breaks in mediawiki
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18:08:17 <hppavilion[1]> I think we could triple the topic's entertainingness by allowing "people" to be replaced with some other demonym (not sure what limiting condition to use yet) and "cloaks" to be other sorts of normal word-turned-tech word
18:09:08 <Taneb> folkses with cloakses
18:09:14 <hppavilion[1]> Example: Note: reptilian overlords with <um> will be treated as if they're from Saint Petersburg (not Saint Petersburg)
18:13:07 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: The international hub of solid matrices | Home of the world's largest ball of threads | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: reptilian armada commanders with cookies will be treated as if they're from Saint Petersburg (not Saint Petersburg).
18:15:03 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
18:15:12 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
18:15:21 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: published fnord 1922 in home brew vol. 1, p. fnord vol. 17, no. 1 ( march 1936), p. fnord.
18:15:39 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: " the flame the flame beyond body, beyond life in the boy, with imagination as his one avenue of freedom. he had, he declared, studies of much more vital importance to pursue; and intimated a wish to look out over the waters to the white ship
18:16:40 <fungot> Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy)
18:16:52 <fungot> hppavilion[1]:/ offspring :) a single race, that :)/ fish to such a degree as before. i have heard it stated that they are anywhere lined by reefs; except in a very southerly course,/ whole, i.e. about/ rattle-snake, look to some special conditions :) life must play a most important fnord it might be a great kindness, and return them in hopes :) receiving another, it was tender when first introduced to a new edition :) ( youatt
18:17:52 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Fungot does not support compound styles. i iz sad.
18:18:38 <int-e> what would that even mean
18:19:02 <hppavilion[1]> (I would recommend a|b makes it choose between styles a and b for the entire message, and a&b would juxtapose the styles)
18:20:23 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: It would take the "product" of the two styles (calculating by multiplying the frequencies of each word, with 0 equaling 1 so that words only used by 1 don't get thrown away), allowing it to sound a little darwin and a little lovecraft
18:21:08 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Thus, you might get Darwin talking about the evolution of cthulhu
18:21:30 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
18:22:51 <hppavilion[1]> @tell fizzie fungot lacks support for compound styles (e.g. darwin&lovecraft), which gives me sads.
18:22:52 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: from/ facts above given and from/ honour so gained it might ultimately have become/ universal habit. according to parmentier " 5? 13. sir archibald geikie as having long been :( a subject :) which you have now fnord, fnord
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18:43:29 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[2], hmm, i don't think that'd work with a markov chain
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18:52:57 <fizzie> Interpolating between n-gram models is certainly possible, but I don't think I feel like actually implementing that in Befunge.
18:53:12 <fizzie> Especially given how the current code is.
18:53:22 <hppavilion[2]> fizzie: You clearly have lost the spirit for #esoteric. Sorry to see you go.
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18:55:30 <fizzie> The code's rather intertwined with the binary file formats. For example, the n-grams are stored (and sampled from) in terms of numeric "tokens", which are mapped back to words only at a very late stage (once the entire sentence has been constructed), and the token-to-text mappings are entirely separate for each style.
18:56:19 <fizzie> There's no way for it to know that 1235 of the irc style is the same word as 724 of some other style, for example.
18:56:37 <fizzie> I could precompute some mixed styles, but that's so brute-force.
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18:59:06 <fizzie> Then the numbers wouldn't have been contiguous.
18:59:17 <fizzie> (And they're used directly as the file offsets.)
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19:06:02 <HackEgo> Hollowhenge Beast \ 3GG \ Creature -- Beast \ 5/5 \ DKA-C
19:06:02 <HackEgo> Debt of Loyalty \ 1WW \ Instant \ Regenerate target creature. You gain control of that creature if it regenerates this way. \ WL-R
19:07:12 <fizzie> `words --finnish --english 20
19:07:31 <fizzie> It was something else.
19:07:34 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
19:07:38 <fizzie> `words --finnish --eng-1M 20
19:08:09 <HackEgo> alairali polkismal irrettama fundamentänsä ticotilitsentärkt ahaaso prcv ilonitschcl vercla imattin ait boot luche thinfini muristor ching notkikolly sannerastisaa hypähän geofyl
19:09:24 <HackEgo> -- solid halves \ 2 tb Dijon mustard \ \ In small bowl, stirring to decorate, about 4 minutes. \ \ Remove from pan or until it gets roll is cooked. Drain beans; spread one egg \ yolks in a large bowl. Pour off fruit slices. Make a slices of the sauces, \ and white replacer pieces from liquid. \ \ Recipe By : ISBN 315-786-1120 \ \ M
19:09:35 <HackEgo> /3 c Unsweetened cocoa \ 2 lb Boneless chicken \ -pepper; seeded \ 2 tb Sour cream or flour \ 1/4 ts Dried parsley \ 1/2 ts Baking soda \ 1/2 ts Cayenne pepper \ \ Cut onion and frozen into provide peach over tops of liquid. Mix cornmeal, syrup, \ pepper and chopped parsley. Makes 3 cups. Parchmenchic, \ Date: More excecked \ fat 199
19:10:47 <HackEgo> Yavimaya Ancients \ 3GG \ Creature -- Treefolk \ 2/7 \ {G}: Yavimaya Ancients gets +1/-2 until end of turn. \ AI-C, ME2-U
19:11:18 <HackEgo> Cryptic Cruiser \ 3U \ Creature -- Eldrazi Processor \ 3/3 \ Devoid (This card has no color.) \ {2}{U}, Put a card an opponent owns from exile into that player's graveyard: Tap target creature. \ BFZ-U
19:11:36 <HackEgo> Necropotence \ BBB \ Enchantment \ Skip your draw step. \ Whenever you discard a card, exile that card from your graveyard. \ Pay 1 life: Exile the top card of your library face down. Put that card into your hand at the beginning of your next end step. \ IA-R, 5E-R, VMA-R, ME2-R, V09-M
19:12:01 <HackEgo> Coalition Victory \ 3WUBRG \ Sorcery \ You win the game if you control a land of each basic land type and a creature of each color. \ IN-R, TSP-S
19:12:30 <HackEgo> Loyal Cathar \ WW \ Creature -- Human Soldier \ 2/2 \ Vigilance \ When Loyal Cathar dies, return it to the battlefield transformed under your control at the beginning of the next end step. \ [Front face. Transforms into Unhallowed Cathar.] \ DKA-C
19:12:45 <HackEgo> Cheap Ass \ 1W \ Creature -- Donkey Townsfolk \ 1/3½ \ Spells you play cost {½} less to play. \ UNH-C
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19:12:55 <HackEgo> Graphic Violence \ 2G \ Instant \ All creatures by the artist of your choice get +2/+2 and gain trample until end of turn. \ UNH-C
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19:13:16 <b_jonas> shachaf: it's case-insensitive by default but can be case-sensitive with (?i)
19:13:26 <shachaf> `random-card comes into play
19:13:28 <HackEgo> Charm School \ 2W \ Enchant Player \ When Charm School comes into play, choose a color and balance Charm School on your head. \ Prevent all damage to you of the chosen color. \ If Charm School falls off your head, sacrifice Charm School. \ UG-U
19:13:56 <HackEgo> Deep Reconnaissance \ 2G \ Sorcery \ Search your library for a basic land card and put that card onto the battlefield tapped. Then shuffle your library. \ Flashback {4}{G} (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its flashback cost. Then exile it.) \ OD-U
19:14:32 <HackEgo> Gerrard's Irregulars \ 4R \ Creature -- Human Soldier \ 4/2 \ Trample, haste \ MM-C
19:14:37 <HackEgo> Battle Mastery \ 2W \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant creature \ Enchanted creature has double strike. (It deals both first-strike and regular combat damage.) \ LRW-U, M15-U, DTK-U, DDL-U
19:14:52 <HackEgo> Arcbound Reclaimer \ 4 \ Artifact Creature -- Golem \ 0/0 \ Remove a +1/+1 counter from Arcbound Reclaimer: Put target artifact card from your graveyard on top of your library. \ Modular 2 (This enters the battlefield with two +1/+1 counters on it. When it dies, you may put its +1/+1 counters on target artifact creature.) \ DST-R
19:15:13 <HackEgo> Reality Acid \ 2U \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant permanent \ Vanishing 3 (This Aura enters the battlefield with three time counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter from it. When the last is removed, sacrifice it.) \ When Reality Acid leaves the battlefield, enchanted permanent's controller sacrifices it. \ PLC-C
19:15:19 <HackEgo> Forked-Branch Garami \ 3GG \ Creature -- Spirit \ 4/4 \ Soulshift 4, soulshift 4 (When this creature dies, you may return up to two target Spirit cards with converted mana cost 4 or less from your graveyard to your hand.) \ BOK-U
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19:17:47 <b_jonas> hppavilion[2]: um, what will it want to do?
19:18:13 <b_jonas> hppavilion[2]: you can try "EggBot: " as the prefix at first
19:18:25 <b_jonas> and only later add shortcuts if it's useful
19:18:36 <notfowl> All the single digit punctuations are taken I think
19:19:24 <b_jonas> EggBot: join #esoteric-blah
19:19:51 <b_jonas> sure but, I still have to try
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20:43:35 <hppavilion[2]> I'm translating Romeo and Juliet into a highly exaggerated version of gamerspeak in a Garry's Mode chat log
20:43:48 <hppavilion[2]> (With a friend. For an assignment. At school. That I plan to turn in.)
20:44:09 <hppavilion[2]> [S4MP50N Quickscopes a Tromp Rat npc from the "1337 5p4ce F1gh75 M0d" mod]
20:44:49 <hppavilion[2]> Some sort of hybrid between a Star Wars reference, some xkcd jokes, and a reference that no one will ever get to this specific channel
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20:48:21 <hppavilion[2]> (no one will ever get the reference; they'll just think it's a slightly-off-brand rename from "womp rat")
21:02:22 <fizzie> I didn't get home in time to see the first Eurovision semi-final live. :/
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22:07:26 <Moon_> N1:1:aa;Naa:2:aa;$o=aa
22:14:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Moon]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46993 * Moon * (+59) /* Bug reporting */ new section
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22:27:29 <Moon_> whats the stub code?
22:27:37 <Moon_> for making a article a stub?
22:30:48 <fizzie> I'm going to guess {{Template:Stub}}, but maybe somebody could confirm.
22:31:02 <fizzie> (Or just look at an existing stub article for reference.)
22:31:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[N--]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46994 * Moon * (+438) Created page with "N-- is a 3 instruction minimalistic variable based language, it has three commands. * N: Nand, format: Ninput1:input2:outputvar; * =: Set variable, format: var=varnumorchar;..."
22:31:49 <fizzie> Oh, it's just {{stub}} as well.
22:32:02 <fizzie> I guess maybe template transclusion picks from the template namespace by default? Who knows.
22:32:11 <Moon_> you told me too late lol, i hit the wrong button anyways
22:32:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[N--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46995&oldid=46994 * Moon * (+9)
22:32:20 <Phantom_Hoover> i love how we can't use any standard mediawiki infrastructure because the wiki is public domain
22:33:29 <Moon_> N1:1:aa;Naa:2:aa;$o=aa does a thing, what it does i dunno, as i havent make a intepreter yet
22:35:57 <quintopia> the standard infrastructure you referenced
22:36:56 <Moon_> The one i just published :P
22:37:37 <Phantom_Hoover> wikipedia's CC licence does not allow you to relicense to PD
22:37:46 <Phantom_Hoover> obviously, because otherwise it'd just be a PD licence
22:38:35 <quintopia> thats what i was asking. ifvall that stuff was CC
22:39:07 <quintopia> its hard to know what is PD and what is not
22:39:20 <Phantom_Hoover> i assume it is, because it's under the standard wikipedia licence
22:41:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[N--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46996&oldid=46995 * Moon * (+97) Hello, world! example, i forgot it
22:41:51 <hppavilion[2]> Phantom_Hoover: Would it work to get whoever runs the wiki to allow a license exemption where "Most of the wiki is public domain, but specially-marked areas are CC"?
22:42:47 <hppavilion[2]> Phantom_Hoover: Who would have the power to do such a thing?
22:42:52 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe. we've gotten by OK as it is, i just find it kind of amusing
22:43:20 <int-e> hppavilion[2]: that would make the wiki less esoteric
22:43:22 <prooftechnique> Does using MediaWiki force all the content to be under CC?
22:43:52 <coppro> mediawiki does not care about content licensing
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22:48:21 <Moon_> quintopia there you go: N1:1:aa;Naa:2:aa;$o=aa + N-- specs = program
22:53:01 <tromp> hi, int-e. i shaved off a few more bits
22:53:36 <tromp> from the laver tables:(
22:54:04 <tromp> https://github.com/tromp/AIT/blob/master/laver.lam
22:55:10 <shachaf> Does BLC turn recursion into an inline Y combinator?
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22:57:25 <tromp> see lines 57-62 of Lambda.lhs
22:57:43 <shachaf> Does the compiler do all sorts of optimizations?
22:57:57 <tromp> some sorts. see optimize function in AIT.lhs
22:59:12 <tromp> sure, if it reduces size
22:59:34 <tromp> so not fix itself, but application of fix
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23:00:05 <tromp> there's a lot more optimization it could do
23:00:41 <tromp> like eta reduction
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23:02:06 <tromp> the Haskell implementation is as lazy as Haskell itself
23:02:25 <tromp> the obfuscated interpreter is call-by-need
23:02:45 <tromp> in the interest of saving many bytes:)
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23:11:20 <shachaf> Hmm, so when you name an expression in a BLC program, does it just get inlined in every place it's used?
23:11:37 <shachaf> Or does it make a lambda and apply it to an argument?
23:12:03 <tromp> the second, but if only used once, a beta reduction will be applied to give the first
23:12:41 <shachaf> Even if it's not the first argument?
23:13:50 <tromp> it will be the first argument of some expr then
23:14:24 <tromp> since a let defining 3 names will compile to 3 applications
23:14:29 <shachaf> Sure, but that expression might be an application and not a lambda.
23:14:59 <shachaf> I mean something like ((\x -> (\y -> ...x...x...y...x...x...)) many) one
23:16:37 <tromp> parentheses wrong? you mean y binds to many?
23:16:51 <int-e> tromp: "save two bits" can't be right... it works for a = 0 and a = 1, and somewhat amazingly for a = 2 as well, but for a = 3 and b = 1 it gives 0 instead of 2 as its answer.
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23:17:54 <shachaf> Since there are many occurrences of x and one of y.
23:18:11 <tromp> hmm, then one is not substituted for y
23:18:23 <tromp> let me check that, int-e
23:18:28 <int-e> tromp: laver (\f\x. f (f (f x))) (\f\x. f (f (f x))) (\f\x. f x)
23:19:05 <shachaf> Then do you order the lambdas in let-in to put the ones that are likely to be reduced first?
23:19:20 <int-e> tromp: (that should be 2)
23:19:53 <int-e> oh, I'm testing with argument order mx, a, b.
23:22:06 <tromp> we do not re-order the lambdas from a let
23:25:07 <int-e> (the reason that a = 2 works is because 2 |> _ is idempotent. 3 |> _ is not idempotent; 3 |> 1 is 2, but 3 |> (3 |> (3 |> 1)) is 0)
23:27:25 <tromp> ah yes, i see the problem
23:29:34 <tromp> now how do i revert back to the last good commit?
23:30:51 <int-e> something like git checkout 796e4fe368bd82800f011cec49e7f201b2f1e49f laver.lam
23:31:28 <int-e> (git diff --cached will show that this actually had an effect... git diff won't)
23:32:01 <int-e> ah, I've never used git revert with mre than one commit...
23:32:22 <shachaf> You can give it a range, it looks like.
23:33:43 <int-e> anyway it's not nicely applicable here because one of the commits touches two files... one of which is now gone...
23:34:06 <tromp> that's ok, i'll re-commit the older checkout
23:36:32 <int-e> and revert would produce two commits ... which could then be smashed with rebase... the checkout was simpler :)
23:37:39 <int-e> thanks, that would do the trick
23:39:12 <int-e> (there would still be an awkward conflict to resolve though)
23:40:07 <int-e> but for teaching purposes, I agree that's what I should've suggested :P
23:41:40 <fizzie> Transcendentally groovy.
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23:48:36 <shachaf> tromp: Oh, but your let definitions are ordered.
23:52:40 <tromp> so writing them in a different order might help optimization
23:53:37 <tromp> hmm, wait. your example may not fit the let expansion pattern
23:54:29 <tromp> in expanded let every name is available for reducing
23:57:25 <tromp> feel free to upvote at http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/79620/laver-table-computations-and-an-algorithm-that-is-not-known-to-terminate-in-zfc :)
23:58:26 <hppavilion[2]> Is there a traditional variant on glob that's suitable for configuring /output/ in substitutions? Like, a glob4s/// of some sort
00:00:25 <shachaf> or is it your perception that's limited
00:00:41 <shachaf> four simultaneous expansions in a single rotation of the glob
00:04:16 <hppavilion[2]> Phantom_Hoover: It would match glob or some extension thereof, and it would replace the matched globbiness with something else. I'm asking if there's a common syntax for that something else.
00:05:01 <hppavilion[2]> Phantom_Hoover: I don't want a more powerful glob, I want to reapply glob to other domains of use
00:05:59 <Phantom_Hoover> you asked me what traditional variants on globs can do and i told you, not much!
00:08:38 <shachaf> tromp: I guess your encoding isn't what I wrote.
00:09:24 <shachaf> You do (\x -> (\y -> ...x...y...) yexpr) xexpr
00:09:35 <shachaf> Which makes a lot more snese in retrospect.
00:10:15 <shachaf> I meant famicom, of course.
00:14:25 <quintopia> it makes zero famicom to me: i cant lambda
00:20:20 <tromp> right; shachaf; your example cannot result from let expansion
00:28:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[N--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46997&oldid=46996 * Moon * (+16)
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01:23:22 <Moon_> Anyone wana try writeing something in N--?
01:24:32 <tromp> where's the N-- tutorial?
01:25:45 <Moon_> Its a stub still: http://esolangs.org/wiki/N--
01:25:54 <Moon_> Unqiue language i beleive
01:28:04 <Moon_> Like the concept tromp?
01:28:14 <tromp> sorry, not really:(
01:28:35 <Moon_> Because Nand is universal
01:28:36 <tromp> enough to write an interpreter for it?
01:28:52 <Moon_> Im going to make a intepreter later
01:29:19 <tromp> a language should be able to handle input:)
01:29:30 <Moon_> I might change that
01:29:36 <Moon_> But the timing would have to be good
01:29:45 <Moon_> as io would be single char buffers
01:29:52 <tromp> what is nand 'H' 'e' ?
01:30:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[N--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46998&oldid=46997 * Moon * (+41)
01:30:41 <tromp> your sample is no good at demonstrating all your language features
01:30:50 <Moon_> Its a hello world :P
01:31:03 <Moon_> im gonna make more
01:32:26 <\oren\> https://youtu.be/GaRJMCpoVFg
01:32:33 <Moon_> Naa:ab:acNac:1:ad is a and gate
01:32:55 <Moon_> aa and ab are input, ad is out
01:33:00 <Moon_> ac is intermediate
01:34:11 <tromp> N-- is more of a hardware description language than a programming language:)
01:34:39 <Moon_> But it is designed to be intepreted
01:35:04 <Moon_> Making it Esoteric :P
01:38:13 <tromp> it's somewhat lacking in elegance thought:(
01:38:27 <tromp> to put it mildly:)
01:39:01 <Moon_> i was aiming for uniqueness in this case
01:49:19 <Moon_> Hia quin, im writing an intepreter for N--
01:49:49 <quintopia> next you could write a N-- to Purple compiler ;)
01:51:11 <Moon_> N-- is based on universal logic gates, jumps, and variables
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01:51:25 <Moon_> Im making a interpreter for N--
01:51:30 <quintopia> Purple is based on decrementation and assignment
01:51:41 <quintopia> should be possible to translate between
01:52:31 <Moon_> I dont think N-- is turing complete, it cant do turing tapes
01:52:43 <Moon_> due to a max of 676 (aa to zz) variables
01:53:00 <Moon_> A bf inplentation would use most of them
01:53:40 <coppro> it can store arbitrarily large numbers though
01:53:46 <coppro> my concern is that it can't do unbounded addition
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01:54:02 <coppro> your only operator is nand
01:54:17 <Moon_> Nand is a universal logic gate
01:54:21 <coppro> so you have no way to set any bit higher than the highest bit set by any constant assignment
01:55:06 <coppro> you can never Nand the first bit of one variable with the second, say, of another
01:55:45 <Moon_> n-- may be useless but its intresting
01:56:26 <coppro> I think it would be TC if you added a "left-shift 1" or "increment by 1" operator
01:57:00 <Moon_> Think about it and i may add it :P
01:57:35 <coppro> the finite number of variables does not prevent a language from being TC as long as they can have unbounded value
01:57:45 <coppro> BF, for instance, needs only 3 cells to be TC
01:57:48 <Moon_> I will probs to left shift and make nand operate on one set of two bits (the first ones) at a time, is that TC?
01:58:11 <coppro> you'd have to be more specific
01:58:55 <Moon_> Like take two 4 bit values: 1010 and 0101, Lshift them and nand, and only the bits currently in first would be operated on if a condition is set
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01:59:48 <coppro> left shift them both, then NAND?
01:59:58 <coppro> what do you mean "only the bits currently in first"?
02:00:11 <Moon_> The first bit of each value
02:00:28 <coppro> so like the result in that case would be 10000?
02:00:41 <coppro> intuitively I suspect that isn't enough for TC. But I'm not sure!
02:00:44 <Moon_> No, a new variable would be changed
02:00:53 <Moon_> The third operator for nand
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02:01:09 <coppro> anyway, you should try to prove your language TC on your own
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02:03:17 <Moon_> does C have bitsets?
02:03:57 <Moon_> Time to write a alternative
02:08:11 <Moon_> what hppavilion[2]?
02:08:28 <hppavilion[2]> Moon_: $ is mingle. Though you might find it interesting.
02:10:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[N--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46999&oldid=46998 * Moon * (+198) Major modifications to the specifications
02:14:16 <tromp> you can be TC with just 2 instructions, ri++, and ri--,jump
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02:19:37 <hppavilion[2]> tromp: ri++ needs to have a target; you need at least two registers to point at
02:20:16 <tromp> yeah, ++ has one target, -- has two
02:20:40 <tromp> but each instr only refers to one reg
02:21:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Piet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47000&oldid=46786 * Timwi * (-73) /* Computational class */
02:21:55 <tromp> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-machine_model#1961:_Minsky.27s_model_of_a_partial_recursive_function_reduced_to_a_.22program.22_of_only_two_instructions
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02:52:11 <oerjan> @tell phantom_hoover <Phantom_Hoover> you do need to do <br> to do single-line breaks in mediawiki <-- yes but you don't use _only_ <br>s.
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03:05:02 <oerjan> <fizzie> There's 61 umlbox processes all fighting for CPU time. <-- maybe that'll teach b_jonas not to spam it hth
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03:05:57 <oerjan> the world is constantly changing.
03:06:40 <Elronnd> oerjan: thing from a different channel
03:08:05 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it's slightly off-centër. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part.
03:08:18 <oerjan> Elronnd: i'm sorry but that's heretical, see above
03:08:58 * oerjan practices waving his cane ======O
03:09:14 <oerjan> wait, is that the wrong end
03:09:15 <Elronnd> oerjan: okay, I did it for my own personal edification
03:09:45 <shachaf> oerjan: i recommend either s/After/Now that/ or s/'s/ became/ hth
03:10:26 <shachaf> Oh, the "centröid" thing was about boily's question.
03:10:38 <shachaf> @tell boily you haven't asked people about their whereabouts in quite a while
03:11:46 <oerjan> `` sed -i "s/'s/ became/" wisdom/#esoteric
03:12:16 <oerjan> i feel that monqy has been gone too long for a "Now that"
03:12:30 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part.
03:12:33 <shachaf> Nowadays, in monqy's absence,
03:13:21 <oerjan> indeed, i'm still stuck on m
03:13:44 <shachaf> I should make norwoerjan porridge.
03:13:56 <shachaf> I don't remember the ingredients. Was rice involved?
03:14:02 <shachaf> Sour cream? Milk? Cinnamon? Raisins?
03:15:57 <oerjan> not all at the same time, you are mixing two different types.
03:16:10 <shachaf> which was the type you recommended
03:16:28 <oerjan> skip the sour cream and the rest is good.
03:16:49 <oerjan> also add some sprinkled sugar.
03:17:21 <shachaf> I guess I can follow http://thecountrybasket.com/risengrot-riskrem-recipe/ ?
03:17:29 <oerjan> in that case skip the rice, cinnamon (maybe? i'm a bit vague there) and raisins, but still add sugar.
03:18:15 <oerjan> you don't mix rice and sour cream, that i know of.
03:18:20 <shachaf> Do you use vanilla powder?
03:19:14 <oerjan> shachaf: hm it's not standard but i'm not sure that it would hurt
03:19:24 <shachaf> That's what that link says.
03:19:44 <pikhq> This is sounding a lot like a rice pudding.
03:19:46 <shachaf> But apparently it's hard to get outside of Norway.
03:19:56 <oerjan> ah yes, that picture also has the traditional red juice.
03:20:02 <pikhq> Ah, that's exactly because it is.
03:20:36 <shachaf> Is that made from the blood of your enemies?
03:21:01 <oerjan> shachaf: e.g. raspberries, very devious little monsters
03:21:30 <HackEgo> Your retired mysterious evil cackling overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
03:21:38 <oerjan> i'm not exactly sure of the proper form of red juice. there are brands...
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03:24:02 <shachaf> `learn Raspberries are oerjan's mortal enemy.
03:24:06 <HackEgo> Learned 'raspberrie': Raspberries are oerjan's mortal enemy.
03:24:11 <quintopia> blue longonblackraspboysenberry sauce
03:24:37 <quintopia> blue lingonblackraspboysenberry sauce
03:24:40 <shachaf> oerjan: wow, that wisdom entry name is kind of scow
03:24:46 <shachaf> it's a pity you're retired, isn't it
03:25:35 <oerjan> it's a blatant lie, anyway.
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03:27:24 * oerjan disagrees with the claim riskrem is only used for christmas and new year.
03:28:02 <shachaf> those are the riskiest times of the year, though
03:28:08 <shachaf> you need all the riskrem you can get
03:28:10 <oerjan> pikhq: note that that page talks about two different dishes, one of which is a prestage to the other.
03:28:46 <oerjan> shachaf: deeply true, that.
03:31:04 <HackEgo> Canaima is a secret Venezuelan project to overrun #esoteric with incomprehensible people who have no idea why they're here.
03:31:13 <shachaf> oerjan: a canaiman joined and parted another channel i'm in
03:31:47 <shachaf> hmm, i didn't intend "canaiman" to imply a gender
03:32:11 <oerjan> shachaf: oh i note the advice about heavy bottom. that's important, and also to stir enough. otherwise it burns easily.
03:32:51 <oerjan> i didn't interpret it to, hth
03:33:19 <shachaf> can ai man save the world? tune in next week to find out
03:34:16 <quintopia> hmm. i read it as "a person from canaim"
03:34:55 <oerjan> hm an hour. back when i actually made this stuff i used a quicker rice brand that only takes 1/4 hour or so. but i guess that might be hard to get outside norway too.
03:35:12 <oerjan> and probably not as good, anyway.
03:35:39 <oerjan> canaima is actually a geographical place name, too
03:35:41 <shachaf> perhaps i should go to norway and try the famous tronheimanian pizza
03:36:01 <quintopia> we call it rice dream. it dont have milk
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04:05:06 <\oren\> https://youtu.be/5-l0K9Dp7eI
04:05:31 <\oren\> ᴴᴰ【東方Vocal】Halozy｜Say Hello To Me【Vo. 長尾ちえみ 】
04:11:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unnecessary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47001&oldid=41482 * 94.223.139.176 * (-4) /* Interpreter */ I'm pretty sure this is what was meant
04:13:34 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> I think we could triple the topic's entertainingness [...] <-- itym overdo it to the point where i lose interest hth
04:16:40 <oerjan> shachaf: well he _did_ implement his bad suggestion.
04:17:28 <shachaf> well it was overdone a long time ago
04:17:40 <oerjan> not to the point where _i_ lost interest.
04:17:57 <oerjan> you think everything's overdone from the start, anyway >:P
04:18:58 -!- oerjan has set topic: The international hub of solid matrices | Home of the world's largest ball of threads | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | R.I.P. Overdone city meme..
04:19:10 -!- oerjan has set topic: The international hub of solid matrices | Home of the world's largest ball of threads | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | R.I.P. Overdone City Meme..
04:19:17 <shachaf> i prefer my meat extra-rare
04:19:26 <shachaf> uncooked and alive is optimal
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04:20:14 <oerjan> itt shachaf proves he's a zombie
04:21:10 <HackEgo> [U+0268 LATIN SMALL LETTER I WITH STROKE]
04:23:05 <oerjan> ipa-only letters are scow
04:25:31 <HackEgo> Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers.
04:25:58 <shachaf> how many twins do you have
04:26:13 <oerjan> an uncountable amount.
04:27:59 <oerjan> `learn אrjan is oerjan's first uncountable twin. He's inconsistent with the ZFC axioms.
04:28:04 <HackEgo> Learned 'אrjan': אrjan is oerjan's first uncountable twin. He's inconsistent with the ZFC axioms.
04:28:42 <oerjan> i'm sure boily will appreciate this wisdom.
04:29:14 <HackEgo> [U+05D0 HEBREW LETTER ALEF]
04:29:50 <oerjan> i cannot even see the ℵ
04:30:04 <shachaf> Oh. Then stick with the א, I guess.
04:31:56 <shachaf> `le/rn lem/Stanisław Lem was a Polish logician who discovered the law of excluded middle.
04:39:32 * oerjan is slightly surprised there was no Lem wisdom
04:39:54 <shachaf> there's still no good lem wisdom
04:42:25 <oerjan> @ask fizzie <fizzie> I didn't get home in time to see the first Eurovision semi-final live. :/ <-- does this mean you will now be shunned by your people like lifthrasiir is?
04:45:56 <oerjan> @ask hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[2]> Some sort of hybrid between a Star Wars reference, some xkcd jokes, and a reference that no one will ever get to this specific channel <-- by any chance, are you planning to fail this assignment?
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06:22:35 <HackEgo> Your retired mysterious evil cackling overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
06:22:47 <shachaf> hmm, i thought you weren't evil anymore
06:22:56 <shachaf> but it must've been something else
06:23:08 <oerjan> i'm no longer infamous hth
06:23:17 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.9358
06:23:18 <shachaf> you have too many adjectives
06:23:19 <oerjan> don't have the time for all the PR
06:23:25 <shachaf> why don't you offload a few to ørjan
06:23:30 <oerjan> i didn't add most of them. perhaps none.
06:23:30 <coppro> I guess he's outfamous now
06:24:55 <oerjan> i guess that's just sandbox processes.
06:25:31 <shachaf> you should figure out a way to become root so we can see non-sandbox processes
06:27:10 <oerjan> i'm just wondering with this talk of heaps of umlbox processes whether it would help if fizzie rebooted it
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08:14:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47002&oldid=44324 * Timwi * (+20) testing
08:14:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47003&oldid=47002 * Timwi * (-24) Worked!
08:46:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Timwi * uploaded "[[File:Efghij — Belmandel function.jpg]]": The Belmandel function in [[efghij]].
08:47:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Efghij]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=47005 * Timwi * (+3310) A new esolang: everyday food, garden & home item jenga
08:52:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Efghij]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47006&oldid=47005 * Timwi * (+37)
08:52:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Efghij]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47007&oldid=47006 * Timwi * (+8)
08:53:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Efghij]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47008&oldid=47007 * Timwi * (+23)
09:00:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Timwi * moved [[File:Efghij — Belmandel function.jpg]] to [[File:Efghij — BelMandel function.jpg]]
09:00:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Efghij]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47011&oldid=47008 * Timwi * (+0)
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09:05:36 <oerjan> a most excellent esolang.
09:14:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Efghij]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=47012 * Oerjan * (+226) A must for the handy programmer
09:17:22 <oerjan> "Twitter user shachaf points out to me (why he didn’t just post this here, I don’t know) [...]"
09:17:55 <shachaf> I was trying to keep my name out of the comments. :-(
09:19:55 <oerjan> i guess when you start your axe murder career it's important not to have your reputation sullied with this academic stuff.
09:20:27 * oerjan considers doing something less evil ->
09:20:46 <shachaf> My tactic of posting a public twit and then deleting it after it's read isn't as effective as I'd hoped.
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09:21:05 <shachaf> Because people's replies don't get deleted.
09:21:21 <oerjan> makes you look a bit like a twat, maybe?
09:21:55 <lambdabot> *** "twat" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
09:21:55 <lambdabot> n 1: a man who is a stupid incompetent fool [syn: {fathead},
09:21:55 <lambdabot> {goof}, {goofball}, {bozo}, {jackass}, {goose}, {cuckoo},
09:21:57 <lambdabot> 2: obscene terms for female genitals [syn: {cunt}, {puss},
09:21:59 <lambdabot> {pussy}, {slit}, {snatch}, {twat}]
09:22:18 <oerjan> apparently that's a bit obscene but it's for a punny cause
09:22:36 <lambdabot> *** "twit" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
09:22:36 <lambdabot> n 1: someone who is regarded as contemptible [syn: {twerp},
09:22:36 <lambdabot> 2: aggravation by deriding or mocking or criticizing [syn:
09:23:23 <oerjan> lesson for next time: don't modify vowels unnecessarily.
09:23:57 <shachaf> but isn't that how you make puns
09:24:15 <oerjan> yes, but this time it wasn't strictly needed
09:38:00 <shachaf> so "number of turing machines of size n that halt" is uncomputable, of course
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11:42:06 <boily> shachaf: hellochaf. how did you know that raspberries were antioerjannic?
11:47:39 <lambdabot> shachaf said 8h 37m ago: you haven't asked people about their whereabouts in quite a while
11:47:39 <lambdabot> shachaf said 8h 36m 42s ago: (please don't @messages-loud the previous message twh)
11:48:07 <Taneb> Good thing you @massages-loud it instead
11:48:14 <Taneb> That could have been embarassing
11:48:28 <b_jonas> August is my favourite month because it's raspberry season
11:48:45 <boily> Tanelle. bad habit on my part >_>'...
11:49:05 <boily> @tell shachaf sorry v_v...
11:49:35 <boily> b_jellonas. there's a raspberry season?
11:49:45 <b_jonas> boily: yes. it's longer than one month, but yes.
12:03:57 <boily> is there a minimal implementation of public key crypto?
12:04:59 <boily> doesn't have to be strong (something like rot13 order of magnitude), just reasonably display the concept of.
12:12:10 <HackEgo> Thanks, izabera. Thizabera.
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12:37:40 <fizzie> @tell boily I'm sure I've seen at least a couple of minimal samples using just a bignum library to illustrate the basic RSA idea.
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17:17:37 <hppavilion[2]> shachaf: Um, the number of turing machines of size n that halt is infinite; you can make a TM arbitrarily large by just using bigger parts. hth.
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17:26:50 <tromp> hppavillion your "bigger parts" doesn't make any sense
17:27:56 <hppavilion[1]> tromp: The joke is that you make the TM physically larger
17:28:22 <hppavilion[1]> My new xkcd headcannon: Web substitution "webcomic" -> "web standard"
17:28:25 <tromp> bad joke:( bigger TMs doesn't make for more TMs:(
17:43:02 <shachaf> your joke doesn't work hth
17:45:33 <shachaf> Taneb: and why don't you like gauss
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18:31:43 <oerjan> Naraka: after i learned a few years ago what it means, i find your nick disturbing
18:33:03 <oerjan> that was not meant as a compliment.
18:33:27 <shachaf> oerjan: why do you have such a problem with this particular thing
18:33:56 <shachaf> you had a similar objection a few days ago if i remember correctly
18:34:08 <coppro> and that's why my nick has two ps
18:34:42 <oerjan> shachaf: yes. it's because i am superstitious hth
18:34:59 <oerjan> i actually think it's a bad omen when things like that suddenly show up.
18:36:32 <oerjan> so, since Naraka showed up just as i joined the channel, it's like a sign that _i_ need to leave.
18:36:56 <coppro> but you didn't and look what happened
18:37:07 <coppro> now this channel has you in it. you've ruined everything
18:37:34 <oerjan> coppro: maybe all you atheists here will negate the effect now that i've mentioned it. i can only hope.
18:38:44 <Naraka> There's only so many things in life which money can buy.
18:39:09 <Naraka> It sure is good that sex is one of those things.
18:39:26 <coppro> I'm going to pretend that naraka is an uncertain answer to "where are the deer?"
18:39:49 * oerjan slightly suspects Naraka of being hagb4rd and doing this on purpose _because_ i reacted to that H3LL guy.
18:39:56 <shachaf> Taneb: and there i was thinking it was only an hopeless fancy
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18:40:50 <oerjan> except he'd never be that subtle. never mind.
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18:43:03 <Taneb> shachaf, I have an exam on Saturday that is Coding theory... and also Gaussian networks?
18:43:20 <oerjan> shachaf: i also obsessively push the "don't show me this" button on every reddit ad containing skulls. :P
18:44:03 <oerjan> you may or may not recall me having to work around a bug in those a couple years ago...
18:44:58 <Naraka> Every time you smile in the mirror...
18:45:16 <oerjan> coppro: that would be rather unfortunate for the deer.
18:46:08 <shachaf> oerjan: hm i was going to say a thing that would be sort of making fun of you but maybe i oughtn't
18:46:39 <oerjan> Taneb: so how's DF going ;P
18:46:57 <Taneb> oerjan, I've been too busy playing Euro Truck Simulator 2
18:47:47 <shachaf> Taneb: why not train simulator
18:48:00 <Taneb> Because I haven't installed it
18:48:31 <lambdabot> ENVA 111720Z 25011KT CAVOK 15/02 Q1015 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 29006KT
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18:49:22 <oerjan> Naraka: i'm just happy i don't _really_ see anything in mirrors when i get in that mood.
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18:59:11 * oerjan hopes he'll get less crazy when his sleeping rhythm returns to a more comfortable phase.
18:59:20 <fizzie> Taneb: There's no Finland expansion kit for Euro Truck Simulator 2. :/
18:59:50 <fizzie> The "Scandinavia" DLC covers Denmark, Norway and Sweden, while the Eastern Europe pack is too south.
19:00:02 <coppro> Denmark is not Scandinavia!
19:00:47 <oerjan> fizzie: hi. do you think a reboot of HackEgo might help some?
19:01:27 <coppro> fizzie: damn you knowing more about where you live
19:01:33 <Taneb> fizzie, I've mostly been playing in the UK and once in the Netherlands
19:01:50 <fizzie> oerjan: Maybe, but I don't actually know how to start it. I could putz around later, I guess.
19:02:27 <oerjan> i guess not getting up again would be a problem.
19:02:58 <fizzie> (Denmark's not part of the Scandinavian Peninsula, though.)
19:03:56 <fizzie> Taneb: I don't even have the game, I've just coveted it once or twice.
19:04:51 <shachaf> Taneb: Oh, you were in .nl?
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19:05:31 <shachaf> And you spent that one time playing Euro Truck Simulator 2?
19:06:54 <Taneb> Very loudly I think
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19:33:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, that is, uh, not the normal way to spend time on a trip to amsterdam
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19:33:47 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, either that or shachaf misparsed my sentence
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19:52:28 <int-e> Taneb: you make it sound like an accident
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20:41:32 <\oren\> does euro truck simulator simulate people trying to sneak a ride on your truck?
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20:42:38 <int-e> meh, always the same with click&point adventures... missing something to interact with.
20:45:26 <hppavilion[1]> Replace one letter (consonant -> consonant, vowel to vowel)
20:45:27 <\oren\> oh apparently tyeres a "trouble at calais" mod for it lolololol
20:45:55 <lambdabot> oerjan said 16h 32m 20s ago: <hppavilion[1]> I think we could triple the topic's entertainingness [...] <-- itym overdo it to the point where i lose interest hth
20:45:55 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 15h 59m 58s ago: <hppavilion[2]> Some sort of hybrid between a Star Wars reference, some xkcd jokes, and a reference that no one will ever get to this specific channel <-- by any chance, are you planning to fail this assignment?
20:50:43 <gamemanj> Unless the BBC are just making stuff up, which is possible (if improbable)
20:52:18 <quintopia> gamemanj: have people forgotten how to *ask* for a hitchhike?
20:54:55 <gamemanj> quintopia: Well, the thing is, the people who sneak rides on trucks aren't supposed to be going to their destination.
20:58:06 <quintopia> you mean like refugees and escaped prisoners?
20:59:32 <gamemanj> No, the truck driver's the unfortunate victim, AFAIK.
21:00:07 <gamemanj> By which "unfortunate victim" meaning "has people attempting to get onto their truck, which the driver does not want on their truck".
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21:44:55 <fizzie> "The C and C++ compilers now emit saner error messages if merge-conflict markers are present in a source file -- test.c:3:1: error: version control conflict marker in file" (GCC 6)
21:45:34 <fizzie> "-Wmisleading-indentation warns about places where the indentation of the code gives a misleading idea of the block structure of the code to a human reader."
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22:19:15 <Moon__> i spent a bit of my time recently devising _yet another language_ im not gonna post it on the wiki, however
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22:24:59 <Moon__> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GeKlAmG19bGzWHTwrSu8tOoGHbpcdqJNScoFF7LLm-s/edit?usp=docslist_api
22:25:34 <fizzie> This air freshener spray "kills odour, causing bacteria at the source". (Punctuation added.)
22:26:28 <Moon__> bad print job or company messup
22:27:43 <fizzie> https://www.ocado.com/productImages/513/51391011_0_640x640.jpg
22:31:27 <HackEgo> U+1F47C BABY ANGEL \ UTF-8: f0 9f 91 bc UTF-16BE: d83ddc7c Decimal: 👼 \ 👼 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
22:32:03 <izabera> https://www.instagram.com/olganoskovaa/
22:34:31 <Moon__> why not make a language that uses a data tree for storing information
22:37:30 <quintopia> heck, hexagony goes one further, stores data in the line graph of a hexagonal grid
22:43:07 <int-e> because you're a failed villain?
22:44:56 <fizzie> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Arborealis has a tree.
22:45:10 <fizzie> Someone here on the channel had a more recent tree thing as well.
22:45:20 <fizzie> Somewhere during the last two years or so, I think.
22:47:40 <hppavilion[2]> Regular expressions... Irregular expressions... Degenerate expressions...
22:47:49 <fizzie> (Okay, Arborealis *calls* it a tree, but it has commands for making cycles, which is pretty untreelike.)
22:48:08 <hppavilion[2]> fizzie: Yeah. It's a tree-with-rootback, which isn't a tree
22:48:23 <HackEgo> words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g' | rainwords
22:49:26 <fizzie> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Treehugger is the recent one I was thinking of, it's more pure.
22:49:30 <HackEgo> cat: bin/exps: No such file or directory
22:49:37 <hppavilion[2]> `` echo "words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/exp\1/g' | rainwords" > bin/exps
22:49:56 <HackEgo> words echo "words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/exp\1/g' | rainwords" > bin/exps | sed -re 's/( |$)/exp\1/g' | rainwords
22:50:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/exps: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/exps: cannot execute: Permission denied
22:50:47 <hppavilion[2]> `mkx bin/exps//words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/exp\1/g' | rainwords" > bin/exps | sed -re 's/( |$)/exp\1/g' | rainwords
22:50:55 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/exps: line 1: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `"' \ /hackenv/bin/exps: line 2: syntax error: unexpected end of file
22:51:16 <fizzie> You, uh, left a bit of a thing in there.
22:51:40 <hppavilion[2]> `mkx bin/exps//words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/exp\1/g' | rainwords
22:52:02 <fizzie> It's interesting how esolangs names are so good for cryptocurrencies.
22:52:15 <fizzie> (I didn't remember it was a mix of eng + esolangs, though.)
22:52:35 <fizzie> That's probably just HackEgo being bad.
22:52:47 <fizzie> I guess I really should try the restart thing.
22:53:04 <fizzie> I think it's just being so slow it's tripping the time limits.
22:53:08 <HackEgo> revercoin automoulcoin wardbarbicoin heavecoin whenecoin scabridcoin effingcoin fustcoin latoritscoin rancoin neipliecoin infuckcoin m-codcoin trecoin face1.0coin netweilcoin tsendecoin silaxcoin juliecoin imminincoin
22:53:17 <fizzie> Well, it did manage that.
22:53:37 <Moon__> *thinks annoying the user of a language as much as possible is good*
22:54:02 <fizzie> face1.0coin is very web 2.0.
22:54:07 <HackEgo> wadachiexp drtexp vortherexp mothexp tendswolexp kiiexp kiinexp []exp delexp circutexp phicexp granexp khamptorexp poreexp unlampexp hawnydiaraexp jugueexp genigmagyaexp etaexp unvehmgexp
22:54:40 <fizzie> delexp isn't too far-fetched.
22:54:55 <fizzie> They're like regex substitutions except the replacement must be the empty string.
22:55:17 <hppavilion[2]> drtexp sounds like the syntax of a Tex-like distribution called "Doctor Tex"
22:55:56 <hppavilion[2]> I guess circutexp could be for asciigramming circuits?
22:56:33 <hppavilion[2]> genigmagyaexp is... I don't know... a syntax for expressing STDs?
22:57:28 <HackEgo> cat: bin/things: No such file or directory
22:58:09 <hppavilion[2]> `mkx bin/thingwords//words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re "s/( |$)/$1\1/g" | rainwords
22:58:24 <hppavilion[2]> There, now we don't need `coins or `exps or `loins
22:59:02 <HackEgo> Argument "exp" isn't numeric in int at /hackenv/bin/words line 148. \ exp
22:59:33 <hppavilion[2]> I suppose the ${1---eng-1M ...} had something to do with that?
23:02:29 <Moon__> http://tinyurl.com/hlhbch4 , i spent time on this (not going on wiki for reasons)
23:14:24 <HackEgo> zaancoin mocreachircoin jouxcoin
23:15:18 <quintopia> HackEgo: where is my seventh of a coin
23:18:23 <fizzie> It's one of those things where hackers steal your roundoff money.
23:26:21 <tswett> So here's a plot of the number of ways that even numbers can be written as the sum of two primes: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Goldbach-1000000.png
23:26:33 <tswett> There's an obvious pattern there.
23:27:23 <tswett> There are a bunch of "lines" which all look like they grow slightly slower than linear.
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23:27:39 <quintopia> tswett: is the pattern that every point is above 1?
23:28:06 <tswett> The lines seem to be spaced like... um, I don't know what else is spaced like that.
23:28:49 <tromp> they shld plot it out much further, like 1e+12
23:29:10 <tromp> although it may look just alike:(
23:29:23 <tswett> Ah, this thing explains a lot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldbach's_comet
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00:20:57 <Caesura> http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~richard/goldbach.html
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00:52:37 <Moon_> | ____|___ ___ | | __ _ _ __ __ _ __ _(_) | _(_)
00:52:37 <Moon_> | _| / __|/ _ \| |/ _` | '_ \ / _` | \ \ /\ / / | |/ / |
00:52:37 <Moon_> | |___\__ \ (_) | | (_| | | | | (_| | \ V V /| | <| |
00:52:37 <Moon_> |_____|___/\___/|_|\__,_|_| |_|\__, | \_/\_/ |_|_|\_\_|
00:57:14 <Moon_> Where u gonna put it?
01:04:46 <Moon_> Phantom_Hoover boop
01:06:14 <Moon_> ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___
01:06:14 <Moon_> _____ / /\ / /\ ___ /__/\ / /\ /__/\ / /\ /__/|
01:06:14 <Moon_> \ \:\/:/~/:/ \ \:\/:::::/ \ \:\/:/__\/ \ \:\/\ \ \:\~~\~~\/ \ \:\/:/ \ \:\ / /:/ \ \:\ / /:/ \ \:\/:::::/
01:06:14 <Moon_> \ \::/ /:/ \ \::/~~~~ \ \::/ \__\::/ \ \:\ ~~~ \ \::/ \ \:\ /:/ \ \:\ /:/ \ \::/~~~~
01:06:15 <Moon_> \ \:\/:/ \ \:\ \ \:\ /__/:/ \ \:\ \ \:\ \ \:\/:/ \ \:\/:/ \ \:\
01:06:15 <Moon_> \ \::/ \ \:\ \ \:\ \__\/ \ \:\ \ \:\ \ \::/ \ \::/ \ \:\
01:06:16 <Moon_> \__\/ \__\/ \__\/ \__\/ \__\/ \__\/ \__\/ \__\/
01:06:19 <Moon_> ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___
01:06:19 <Moon_> _____ / /\ / /\ ___ /__/\ / /\ /__/\ / /\ /__/|
01:06:19 <Moon_> \ \:\/:/~/:/ \ \:\/:::::/ \ \:\/:/__\/ \ \:\/\ \ \:\~~\~~\/ \ \:\/:/ \ \:\ / /:/ \ \:\ / /:/ \ \:\/:::::/
01:06:19 <Moon_> \ \::/ /:/ \ \::/~~~~ \ \::/ \__\::/ \ \:\ ~~~ \ \::/ \ \:\ /:/ \ \:\ /:/ \ \::/~~~~
01:06:20 <Moon_> \ \:\/:/ \ \:\ \ \:\ /__/:/ \ \:\ \ \:\ \ \:\/:/ \ \:\/:/ \ \:\
01:06:20 <Moon_> \ \::/ \ \:\ \ \:\ \__\/ \ \:\ \ \:\ \ \::/ \ \::/ \ \:\
01:06:21 <Moon_> \__\/ \__\/ \__\/ \__\/ \__\/ \__\/ \__\/ \__\/
01:06:25 <Moon_> *Sigh* it gets cut off
01:10:20 <Moon_> | ____|___ ___ | | __ _ _ __ __ _ __ _(_) | _(_)
01:10:20 <Moon_> | _| / __|/ _ \| |/ _` | '_ \ / _` | \ \ /\ / / | |/ / |
01:10:20 <Moon_> | |___\__ \ (_) | | (_| | | | | (_| | \ V V /| | <| |
01:10:20 <Moon_> |_____|___/\___/|_|\__,_|_| |_|\__, | \_/\_/ |_|_|\_\_|
01:10:25 <Moon_> was made for the same reason
01:13:16 <Moon_> No, i didnt do figlet.
01:13:29 <Moon_> I assembled that by hand, and now i discover i wasted my time
01:13:42 <Moon_> The expanded brainfuck was made by something else
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01:18:46 <Moon_> Flipped through random, get reminded to finish hellborne instruction set
01:20:42 <HackEgo> Violation is the act of playing a viola or another instrument in the viola family.
01:20:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: whois: not found
01:21:01 <Moon_> too used to hackego
01:21:04 <prooftechnique> Also good: https://asciinema.org/a/5qygszp4cmjjgf2ruzoaj0r4p
01:21:12 <Moon_> `ciol rdamnit hackego;
01:22:18 <fizzie> ▛▘▗▖▗ ▐ ▄ ▄ ▗▖ ▖▖▝ ▌ ▝
01:22:18 <fizzie> ▛▘▘▖▌▌▐ ▄▌▌▌▚▌ ▙▌▐ ▙▘▐
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01:47:52 <\oren\> Hmm, you could use the braille characters to make even more compact big letters, (or the same size but more details)
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01:59:28 <FireFly> ⢰⠒⠂⡖⠲⠀⡖⠒⡆⡆⠀⢰⠒⢲⢰⢲⢰⢰⠒⠆⠀⠀⡆⡆⡆⡆⡆⢰⠀⡆
01:59:29 <FireFly> ⢸⣉⡀⣍⣉⡇⣇⣀⡇⣇⣀⢸⠒⢺⢸⢸⣸⢸⣀⣹⠀⠀⣇⣇⡇⡇⡏⠉⡇⡇
02:00:21 <FireFly> works better when there's no braille next to it
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02:35:37 <lifthrasiir> https://twitter.com/papamitra/status/729199063367737345 kind of a good point.
02:39:19 <Phantom_Hoover> it's a good point when you overlook the part where it makes no sense
02:40:36 <pikhq> That is not etymologically accurate, either.
02:40:54 <pikhq> Oh, hah. Bit masking. :P
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02:42:30 <lifthrasiir> the entire CJK ideograph block was populated from multiple sources in the order of radical-stroke indices, so it is almost impossible to tamper
02:47:22 <tswett> `le/rn war/A lot more young people have gone off to fight in this war than I would have, at that age.
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02:50:39 <shachaf> `` python -c 'print chr(ord("r") & ord("g"))'
02:55:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: coïns: not found
02:55:23 <tswett> Short for "coïnsurance", of course.
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03:58:21 <lambdabot> No instance for (Show (m0 Char)) arising from a use of ‘print’
03:58:21 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘m0’ is ambiguous
03:58:21 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
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04:09:08 <Zoroaster> Really! That's an interesting result of combination.
04:09:33 <Zoroaster> > text [chr(ord('生') .&. ord('活'))]
04:10:08 <Zoroaster> > text [chr(ord('火') .&. ord('水'))]
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04:27:13 <Zoroaster> How is it that love appears from life and death?
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04:40:16 <shachaf> @tell boily Feel free to @messages this one in the channel.
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06:46:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unnecessary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47013&oldid=47001 * 91.159.232.100 * (+4) Undo revision 47001 by [[Special:Contributions/94.223.139.176|94.223.139.176]] ([[User talk:94.223.139.176|talk]])
06:52:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unnecessary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47014&oldid=47013 * 95.244.75.222 * (-2) \! -> !
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06:57:20 <mad> has our society reached peak complexity
06:57:31 <mad> aka the point of diminishing returns
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07:05:58 <mad> because that would sorta explain what's wrong with the economy
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07:09:47 <mad> you see it in video games... they get all AAA then get too big and then spiral out of control
07:09:52 <mad> like duke nukem forever
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09:53:12 <FireFly> I don't think that's why DNF was a failure
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11:21:53 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 14h 31m 37s ago: I have really cool teacher, so...
11:22:10 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] Good, good.
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11:48:01 <boily> aurgh. the one time I @massages in lambdie's channel, I get the permission to #esoterichannel it.
11:49:53 <boily> *soulful mapole whistle*
11:51:05 * oerjan gets overrun by a speeding moose
11:58:21 <boily> lesson from yesterday night: a trinitron TV is fungotting heavy, even when rolling it on a table extension on wheels on a cycling path.
11:58:31 <boily> fungot: 209 lbs? wouldn't be surprised.
11:58:32 <fungot> boily: sir t. mitchell for several interesting lines :) argument, from geographical distribution, and geological succession :) organic beings. without variability nothing can be more profound and striking than your observations on/ waxy secretion which makes some leaves glaucous. i think that i told you that hooker, who was not impelled by any deep, instinctive feeling, to sacrifice his life, my brother worked hard at chemistry
12:08:18 <oerjan> argh i just cannot get yesterday's logs to be interpreted as utf-8
12:08:42 <oerjan> (or, for that matter, open it inline, which is part of the problem.)
12:11:40 <oerjan> HackEgo put a lot of color codes near the beginning, which means it won't get accepted as a normal text file.
12:12:18 <oerjan> which means i never get to the menu to force the charset.
12:12:49 <oerjan> and vim doesn't want to think it's in utf8 either.
12:17:24 <oerjan> i think :e ++enc=utf8 worked
12:17:38 <oerjan> i just had to find out how to do it
12:19:42 <oerjan> there, finally a readable format
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12:27:32 <HackEgo> cat: bin/things: No such file or directory
12:28:21 <HackEgo> words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re "s/( |$)/$1\1/g" | rainwords
12:28:52 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/1/2/' bin/thingwords
12:31:48 <HackEgo> words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g' | rainwords
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13:05:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unnecessary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47015&oldid=47014 * Oerjan * (-4) Pretty sure I agree with the previous.
13:05:56 <oerjan> did unnecessary get posted somewhere
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13:22:05 <b_jonas> wait, is Questionable Content parodying Casey & Andy with today's strip?
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13:24:22 <oerjan> b_jonas: nah, not enough mad science
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13:30:47 <b_jonas> oerjan: what? it even has a robotic hand like Andy's
13:31:40 <b_jonas> oerjan: Andy gets one at the very end of the story, in http://www.galactanet.com/comic/view.php?strip=665 , after his girlfriend tears off his arm (it's complicated)
13:32:42 <oerjan> i somehow just didn't notice the hand
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13:55:20 <int-e> yes, definitely casey & andy
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15:31:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SetBang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=47016 * 207.237.146.34 * (+941) Created a page for this language. Because why not. It should probably be filled with more information.
15:52:49 <tromp> generally, languages designed by people called "Church" are pretty great
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16:49:34 <HackEgo> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv.
16:51:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: metar: not found
16:52:08 <int-e> Neither can I but I know its history. "int-e is not [note:inte in swedish] swedish. He will blow up the sun. He stands for himself."
16:52:42 <int-e> (not sure about the gender on the last one... it may be neutral)
16:52:50 <quintopia> hmm. it doesn't tell how you got your nick
16:53:05 <int-e> because I don't tell
16:53:38 <quintopia> mystery isn't as cool as people think it is
16:53:51 <quintopia> but if the story is boring, it could still be cooler than the alternative
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17:09:39 <fizzie> int-e: "Hen" is indeed the gender-neutral Swedish third-person singular pronoun. I believe it's even in a somewhat wider use than the English equivalents.
17:10:11 <fizzie> (han/hon/hen for he/she/[whatever variant you like].)
17:12:19 <int-e> sometimes I love bugfixes. 2 files changed, 17 insertions(+), 344 deletions(-)
17:13:19 <int-e> (though to be fair most of that was code duplication and unused code)
17:16:23 <b_jonas> fungot, why are these numbers on my screen wrong?
17:16:25 <fungot> b_jonas: fnord on drifted seeds and trees. on account :)/ instinctive dread, which his monkeys exhibited, for i tried to approach/ subject on/ continent also have fnord attached to/ larger islands; and those which produce yellow cocoons differ slightly in colour, in/ two other forms) than when crossed inter se: but to a less degree to/ present day, represented by corpora wolffiana in/ human brain. on/ 13th/ storm raged with its
17:17:41 <fizzie> (That was a particularly nice bug.)
17:17:43 <shachaf> fizzie: "hen" isn't gender-neutral in english at all
17:17:57 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin* discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
17:18:01 <\oren\> aargh the easiest way to do this is to spider their api,but theyll get mad if i do that
17:19:30 <b_jonas> \oren\: what do you want to download or follow?
17:20:03 <\oren\> i need a list of all sibway stations
17:20:35 <fizzie> See, what happened is, I had a thing to prune tokens that occur less often than a given constant, and it went ahead and actually pruned also some of the punctuation tokens, but the punctuations tokens actually have a fixed translation, the first few non-negative integers are hardcoded in the source, rather than being in the tokens.bin, because they have nonstandard spacing. Aren't you glad you ...
17:21:44 <\oren\> so one way to do tjis is to spider nextbus.con
17:22:02 <b_jonas> so those two shouldn't actually be the same
17:23:01 <fizzie> I heard a story the other day, a friend-of-a-friend in Helsinki was approached by a tourist, who wanted to know where they could find the *full* subway map, because they could only find the one line.
17:23:08 <fizzie> (The joke is that http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/helsinki-metro/images/5-helsinki-metro-map.jpg *is* the full subway map.)
17:24:29 <notfowl> norway is phallic shaped anyways, looks fine
17:24:46 <\oren\> hmm if i take my laptp to starbucks they wont know its me
17:26:32 <fizzie> Do you actually need good data for whatever you're doing? Because I would expect you could get a good approximation by just getting the OpenStreetMap data with tag:station=subway.
17:27:01 <\oren\> oh. shit why dis i not think of that
17:32:22 <\oren\> this will work. after all i only need their names
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18:47:19 <notfowl> Here's a tiny VM I wrote when I was bored https://gist.github.com/fowlmouth/1edf02cde1952b4866ea4ab252221329
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19:18:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexagony]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47017&oldid=46662 * Timwi * (-25) /* I/O */ Fix semantics of , and ;
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19:57:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[N--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47018&oldid=46999 * Moon * (+268) New change, also, you can only specify variables now.
20:00:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[N--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47019&oldid=47018 * Moon * (-8) Not much of a stub now, eh?
20:02:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[N--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47020&oldid=47019 * Moon * (+53) Im mooning the wiki and forgeting all sorts of things
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20:24:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[N--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47021&oldid=47020 * Moon * (+176)
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20:47:16 <b_jonas> Is it possible to make a polyglot that's both an interesting efghij program, and the result of performing a Chef program literally, at the same time?
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20:51:13 <b_jonas> prooftechnique: new esolang. see the wiki.
20:52:20 <prooftechnique> And by Chef you mean the esolang, not the infrastructure tool, right? :D
20:52:37 <b_jonas> prooftechnique: the esolang
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20:59:58 <prooftechnique> Well, it looks like most of the components of a Chef program are currently undefined in efghij, so I supppose you could bolt I/O onto efghij by way of Chef
21:01:01 <prooftechnique> Though you'd have to determine if the video proof required to run a literal Chef program is compatible with the photographic nature of efghij
21:05:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47022&oldid=46988 * B jonas * (+114)
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21:19:44 <HackEgo> f10d4: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
21:20:00 <f10d4> good evening bots and dudes!
21:20:37 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:21:02 <f10d4> proved turing-completeness of some ancient programming languages
21:21:28 <f10d4> simulated rule-110 automata in them
21:24:12 <oerjan> f10d4: rule-110's universality proof requires infinite initial state. that means you must be careful when using it for TC proofs.
21:24:46 <f10d4> oerjan: not exactly
21:24:53 <oerjan> (the halting condition might also be tricky. although i suspect it's just a redex)
21:25:17 <oerjan> f10d4: not exactly how?
21:25:34 <f10d4> oerjan: for being correct, a simulation is enough for only finite increasing intervals
21:26:03 <f10d4> because we assume that everything above the starting cells is an infinite patterns
21:26:13 <quintopia> i'm 90% sure oerjan is always right
21:26:40 <oerjan> f10d4: i'm sure i'm right, but i'm not sure you're interpreting me the right way :P
21:27:04 <oerjan> f10d4: i'm just saying you may or may not have considered this subtlety.
21:27:10 <f10d4> mathematician = says a, writes b, thinks about c, correct is d
21:27:20 <oerjan> quintopia: no, i'm pretty sure i was pretty out of it yesterday.
21:27:42 <quintopia> well, you would know, being right and all
21:27:53 <oerjan> although it did not involve math. math should be OK.
21:28:30 <oerjan> prooftechnique: i'm not convinced of that.
21:28:48 <quintopia> when trump is president you will have been right about that too
21:30:32 <oerjan> <quintopia> oh right the one i can't read <-- jag ser inte problemet
21:31:18 <oerjan> it's perfectly latin-based alphabet and everything
21:32:32 <oerjan> i understand everything about his and tromp's laver tables except why they're shelves.
21:32:53 <oerjan> int-e: you've been idle for 4 hours
21:32:55 <int-e> I don't understand that either.
21:33:14 <int-e> I might try to figure it out the coming weekend
21:33:22 <oerjan> int-e: in fact, when i just looked at laver.hs it was pretty much exactly what i'd thought
21:33:27 <int-e> but probably not on my own... reading literature instead
21:33:37 <oerjan> darn literature, but it may be the only way
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21:34:44 <oerjan> unless i can find an insanely clever induction on [a, ..., mx] being a subshelf. that's my best idea so far.
21:36:23 <oerjan> shachaf: i didn't know he had one
21:36:58 <oerjan> (i'm sorry, there's currently a swatting shortage due to overuse. please hold for a few days.)
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21:37:35 <shachaf> oerjan: would the swat be for the capital
21:38:06 <oerjan> i didn't even notice the capital.
21:38:18 <shachaf> blood for the blood god, capital for the capitalists
21:38:42 <oerjan> shachaf: is this jesus in a very creepy alternative dimension
21:39:17 <shachaf> "capital for the capitalists" is just regular capitalism
21:39:30 <shachaf> the other one is some internet thing
21:39:37 * oerjan realizes shachaf may not know the allusion
21:39:49 <int-e> oerjan: there must be some very clever insight into how to find the most significant bit when going from domain size 2^n to domain size 2^{n+1}
21:40:44 <oerjan> new testament, Mark 12:17: "So Jesus told them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."
21:41:10 <oerjan> that's pretty much almost equivalent.
21:41:24 <shachaf> oerjan: http://i.imgur.com/odBEeLF.png
21:41:36 <oerjan> especially in context. except with less blood, but other parts of the bible have that, i think.
21:41:51 <int-e> oerjan: Anyway, I'll be _afk_ for an hour!!!1
21:42:46 <oerjan> shachaf: ken m is a bit of a closet non-christian.
21:44:03 <oerjan> i think the pope might not be.
21:45:21 <shachaf> http://www.theonion.com/article/pope-francis-clarifies-god-just-one-many-immortal--51470
21:48:33 <shachaf> oerjan: actually http://i.imgur.com/HSexikG.jpg
21:49:11 <oerjan> int-e: wait, most significant bit? ...oh darn, i just barely missed that ((2^{n-1}-1) |>) obviously preserves all lower ones...
21:52:55 <oerjan> shachaf: i see ken m has flexible devoutness
21:53:35 <shachaf> http://i.imgur.com/ViHGGeg.png
21:55:04 <oerjan> full of wisdom this one is
21:58:44 <lambdabot> ENVA 122050Z 28021KT 9999 SHRA FEW020 SCT028 BKN061 05/01 Q1012 RMK WIND 670FT 29021KT
21:59:14 <lambdabot> KATL 122052Z 25006KT 10SM FEW050 BKN100 BKN140 OVC250 28/16 A3006 RMK AO2 SLP170 CB DSNT N-NE SHRA DSNT N-NE & VC W T02780156 56013
21:59:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: weather: not found
22:00:00 <oerjan> int-e: maybe @metar should give a message for wrong argument syntax
22:00:07 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK
22:00:10 <lambdabot> CYUL 122000Z VRB05KT 15SM BKN210 25/05 A2999 RMK CI7 SLP156 DENSITY ALT 1200FT \ ENVA 122050Z 28021KT 9999 SHRA FEW020 SCT028 BKN061 05/01 Q1012 RMK WIND 670FT 29021KT \ ESSB 122050Z AUTO 14006KT 9999 NCD 08/01 Q1008 \ KOAK 122053Z 29013KT 10SM FEW015 SCT200 18/09 A3005 RMK AO2 SLP175 T01830094 58009
22:05:52 <lambdabot> EGLL 122050Z AUTO 01008KT 340V050 9999 NCD 15/11 Q1004 NOSIG
22:06:03 <fizzie> It was 27 last weekend.
22:06:15 <fizzie> And it's going to be a daily high of 14 the next one.
22:06:23 <fizzie> Or something like that anyway.
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22:22:04 <HackEgo> Your retired mysterious evil cackling overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
22:22:13 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/\. He s.*//' wisdom/oerjan
22:25:17 <fizzie> Now you got the final . as well. :/
22:26:30 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/oerjan
22:26:49 <shachaf> fizzie: How would you express the desired transformation in as short a command as possible?
22:30:46 <oerjan> <shachaf> i don't believe you hth <-- it was based on an actual event hth
22:30:54 <oerjan> although i've forgotten the event.
22:32:26 <oerjan> shachaf: i think leaving out the \. would have worked hth
22:32:41 <shachaf> oerjan: but that would remove the previous sentence too
22:34:00 <oerjan> `` grep ' He s' wisdom/oerjan
22:34:41 <oerjan> it was a unique string so nothing else would be removed.
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22:41:53 <vanila> what extensions are you doing
22:42:03 <hppavilion[2]> (I'm making my own because the normal re for python doesn't support some things I need AFAICT)
22:42:22 <hppavilion[2]> vanila: Mostly it's just PCRE with different syntax and some less-painful backreferences
22:42:56 <hppavilion[2]> vanila: A lot of the stuff is backend; e.g. the ability to choose a target for substitution other than just the first occurance
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22:45:02 <oerjan> int-e: so as i mentioned, i'd missed that lower bits are independent of higher ones
22:45:39 <int-e> yeah... I tend to do /lastlog int-e 10 (or so) when I arrive, so I didn't miss that
22:46:59 <fizzie> Have to admit I laughed (well, giggled) at https://twitter.com/tomaspetricek/status/730442442827304961/photo/1
22:47:57 <int-e> pffft, that's more than 9.895pt
22:48:03 <oerjan> also, proving the existence of _any_ shelf with an arbitrary big period for x |> x |> ... |> x = x would also be enough, since they have to be laver tables.
22:48:10 <fizzie> int-e: Surely that depends on the page size.
22:49:13 <int-e> oerjan: uh what's the associativity there
22:49:36 <hppavilion[2]> I should probably just start by implementing simpler regex engines
22:52:25 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: i might now accuse you of being glib hth
22:53:06 <oerjan> int-e: any element in a shelf
22:53:45 <int-e> oerjan: well then you have a problem
22:53:47 <oerjan> the subshelf generated by x is always isomorphic to a laver table.
22:54:00 <oerjan> int-e: i mean any element with that property.
22:54:02 <int-e> oerjan: since (|> 1) has period 2^n in those shelves.
22:55:05 <int-e> oerjan: ah. well, you could've been clearer about what you want to prove. I lost the context.
22:55:06 <oerjan> int-e: i'm just saying, if you could make a shelf in a completely different way and prove it has a high-period element, that would also imply laver tables work.
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22:57:42 <int-e> oerjan: if you read the blog post you'll find that Laver defined an infinite shelf that induces the finite ones as quotients
22:58:45 <int-e> (which in fact will out the way you describe though that isn't visible from the blog post)
22:59:02 <int-e> s/will out/will work out/
22:59:37 <int-e> https://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2016/05/06/shelves-and-the-infinite/
23:00:08 <oerjan> i thought i _had_ read that.
23:00:22 <oerjan> or browses, at any rate.
23:00:39 <int-e> "Laver showed that this operation distributes over itself:"
23:03:27 <oerjan> int-e: oh. well that won't really help since it assumes a large cardinal axiom. i'd assumed you could prove the tables at least _were_ shelves without it.
23:04:05 * int-e hasn't actually read the definition... regarding it as some sort of spoiler.
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23:05:25 <oerjan> int-e: the problem with quotienting out by the equation is that you still have to prove you only identify the elements you want.
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23:17:08 <oerjan> wtf is with the math formatting at https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/shelf
23:17:36 <oerjan> all formulas show up twice, once badly rendered, then followed by TeX.
23:18:31 <int-e> not for me... try disabling javascript? :P
23:19:29 <fizzie> Relatively pretty too.
23:19:36 <oerjan> ok the homepage mentions MathML.
23:19:47 <fizzie> Seems it's just MathJax.
23:20:56 <fizzie> Well, "just" may not be the right word. It's the kind of MathJax where you actually have MathML in the sources, and then MathJax makes it work in places where it wouldn't otherwise.
23:22:36 <fizzie> At least I assume so. The code looks a bit dubious to me.
23:23:42 <Moon_> ima start learning haskell
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23:40:50 <Moon_> hi hppavilion[2], im going to be learning haskell, a big change for me
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23:43:36 <Moon_> Already likeing the idea of Ranges
23:44:01 <Moon_> *Has been freed from handwriting a rangemaking function*
00:00:21 -!- oerjan has set topic: The international hub of solid matrices | Contains only free ranging moons | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | R.I.P. Overdone City Meme..
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00:07:42 <fizzie> > let 1+1 = 7 in 1+2 -- Haskell is so unsmart :/
00:07:43 <lambdabot> *Exception: <interactive>:3:5-11: Non-exhaustive patterns in function +
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00:36:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[N--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47023&oldid=47021 * Moon * (-44)
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00:43:13 <tswett> You know the great thing about the model existence theorem?
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00:43:38 <tswett> The proof doesn't merely establish the existence of a model for the theory you give it. It *explicitly defines* a model.
00:44:03 <Moon_> 10101010101010101010101010101010101010101010...
00:44:33 <tswett> The model isn't amenable to computation, but it is nevertheless explicitly defined.
00:45:49 <quintopia> suppose there is a periodic binary message, and each bit is transmitted for a fixed but unknown period of time.
00:46:27 <quintopia> and the channel is noisy, transmitting successfully p fraction of the time.
00:46:50 <quintopia> and successful fragments can be identified
00:47:52 <quintopia> is there a code which allows the message to be received and understood after only O(1/p) loops
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01:18:19 <FireFly> I don't, but I'd be interested in knowing too
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02:10:16 <\oren\> tromp_! tromp_! tromp!
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02:13:58 <\oren\> I upgraded ksp to 1.1 and everything was broken, but with 1.1.2 it's become stable again
02:14:03 <boily> he\\oren\, trellomp_!
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02:23:33 <boily> my night out involved a nasi lemak and one heavy fungot of an iMac in a box.
02:23:38 <boily> `relcome Nathan2055
02:24:05 <Nathan2055> Anyone seen this garbage: http://arstechnica.com/
02:24:12 <HackEgo> Nathan2055: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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03:51:22 <int-e> @tell oerjan I figured it out: Once one has shown that a |> mx = mx for all a (which only works for mx = 2^n-1), one can prove a |> (b |> c) = (a |> b) |> (a |> c) by induction on a, and an induction on b |> c according to its recursive definition.
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04:48:56 <j-bot> hppavilion[2]: ┌───────────┐
04:48:56 <j-bot> hppavilion[2]: │┌─────────┐│
04:48:56 <j-bot> hppavilion[2]: ││┌───────┐││
04:48:56 <j-bot> hppavilion[2]: │││┌─────┐│││
04:48:56 <j-bot> hppavilion[2]: ││││┌───┐││││
04:48:56 <j-bot> hppavilion[2]: │││││100│││││
04:48:56 <j-bot> hppavilion[2]: ││││└───┘││││
04:48:57 <j-bot> hppavilion[2]: │││└─────┘│││
04:48:57 <j-bot> hppavilion[2]: ...
04:50:55 <hppavilion[2]> j-bot: <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<5
04:50:56 <j-bot> hppavilion[2]: ââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââ
04:50:56 <j-bot> hppavilion[2]: ââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââ
04:51:08 <j-bot> hppavilion[2]: ââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââ
04:51:24 <j-bot> hppavilion[2]: ââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââ
04:51:40 <j-bot> hppavilion[2]: ââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââ
04:51:56 <j-bot> hppavilion[2]: ââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââ
04:52:16 <j-bot> hppavilion[2]: ââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââ
04:52:32 <j-bot> hppavilion[2]: ââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââ
04:52:32 <j-bot> hppavilion[2]: ...
04:52:36 <j-bot> hppavilion[2]: |value error: stahp
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07:01:57 <shachaf> what's http://www.oplax.fi/ all about?
07:02:03 <shachaf> i didn't realize 2-categories were so popular in finland
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07:08:22 <myname> in reverse order, i hope
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07:41:41 <b_jonas> `learn Semmelweis saves the life of a hundred thousand birthgiving mothers by popularising This One Simple Trick. Doctors hate him for it.
07:41:48 <HackEgo> Learned 'semmelwei': Semmelweis saves the life of a hundred thousand birthgiving mothers by popularising This One Simple Trick. Doctors hate him for it.
07:49:57 <shachaf> `` mv wisdom/semmelwei{,s}
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08:13:12 <lambda-11235> Ugh, codefights doesn't support haskell, scala, or any lisp. I'm going back to project euler.
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09:00:41 <hppavilion[1]> CHALLENGE: Create the most needlessly complicated system for calculating kinship
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09:48:23 <fizzie> Re fungot: the machine it's running on seems to have "crapped out".
09:49:14 <fizzie> I'll be blaming the bot, I'm sure it did something to it. Tried to gain sentience again, or something like that.
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10:19:07 <fizzie> fungot: Fess up, what did you do?
10:19:08 <fungot> fizzie: the 0 that c puts at the end of a stick for c++ entrenched managers. they're great, if we expand " a"
10:19:30 <fizzie> If I understood correctly, it had something to do with null termination.
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12:25:14 <lambdabot> int-e said 8h 33m 52s ago: I figured it out: Once one has shown that a |> mx = mx for all a (which only works for mx = 2^n-1), one can prove a |> (b |> c) = (a |> b) |> (a |> c) by induction on a, and an induction on b |> c according to its recursive definition.
12:26:38 <oerjan> a |> mx = mx is itself a bit tricky, i think. i had some thoughts on that.
12:29:38 <oerjan> @tell int-e a |> mx = mx is itself a bit tricky, i think. i had some thoughts on that. basically recursing on that, and on mapping to the right half being an endomorphism, simultaneously.
12:29:58 <oerjan> @tell int-e *inducting
12:31:15 <oerjan> <Asztal> >_> <-- he chose a bad time to return
12:50:25 <oerjan> fungot: so how's your sentience project going?
12:50:25 <fungot> oerjan: then i'll say emacs) fixed the ugly fontification for me) at compile time, when you can steal, and referred to a popularity graph that looked like fnord
12:50:41 <oerjan> let's call that progress.
12:55:39 <HackEgo> C-x M-c M-butterfly? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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13:56:37 <oerjan> sam starfall is not too good with compliments.
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15:43:05 <int-e> oerjan: yes, a |> mx = mx is a bit tricky... but it's something that one can wrap one's head around since there's only one free variable instead of three.
15:43:53 <int-e> But I'm still not sure how to convince Isabelle of the fact.
15:45:05 <int-e> (I have done the proof that a |> mx = mx implies self-distributivity in Isabelle, it wasn't too hard actually.)
15:47:11 <int-e> but the way I convince myself that a |> mx = mx relies on some handwaving about top bits, hence the period of iterating (|> b), and it's not easy to make it fully rigorous.
15:49:59 <int-e> basically the intuition is captured in the definition of `lavers` in laver.hs; all the lists in there have lengths (periods) that are powers of 2.
15:50:36 * int-e afks a bit (verbification is fun).
15:54:50 <oerjan> int-e: i _really_ think making mx = 2^n - 1 rather than mx = 2^n makes the formulas more awkward here.
15:57:07 <oerjan> my intuition is, a |> mx because (a + 2^(n-1)) |> (mx - 2^(n-1)) = mx and all but the highest bit must follow the same period, so you can at most double it.
15:57:17 <oerjan> int-e: my intuition is, a |> mx because (a + 2^(n-1)) |> (mx - 2^(n-1)) = mx and all but the highest bit must follow the same period, so you can at most double it.
15:58:58 <oerjan> (note that if you set mx = 2^n then a |> n = mx is the same as the period of a |> x dividing n.)
15:59:13 <oerjan> int-e: (note that if you set mx = 2^n then a |> n = mx is the same as the period of a |> x dividing n.)
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16:03:12 <HackEgo> this sentence//This sentence was not invented by Taneb. Taneb invented it.
16:03:19 * oerjan gets too annoyed talking to a backlog grep
16:03:33 <HackEgo> to hot oil over nick. \ Bake at 350 degrees for 45 minutes. Serve on parmesan cheese. Place the spinach, cooking \ sure, then add cloves and covered. serve with a heavy cream. \ \ FOR SUGAR YOU SOUR: Put first 1 1/4-inch loaf pans or or cooking spray. \ \ : Cook and beat until stiff peaks form. Heat oven to 350F. Pour over chicken and c
16:03:34 <HackEgo> Consumptive Goo \ BB \ Creature -- Ooze \ 1/1 \ {2}{B}{B}: Target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn. Put a +1/+1 counter on Consumptive Goo. \ SCG-R
16:04:17 * oerjan is starting to think HackEgo is too noisy lately.
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16:05:23 <HackEgo> o is a popular comedy adventure fantasy webcomic. It's about a group of adventurers, heroes or warriors (whatever you want to call them) called the Order of the Stick, as they go about their adventures with minimal competence or knowledge of what they are doing, and eventually sort of stumble into a plan by an undead sorcerer to conquer the world,
16:05:30 <HackEgo> zzo38mtg.php//http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/cardfile.php
16:05:44 <HackEgo> misle//misle v. tr. "I was misled about morphology."
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16:57:36 <impomatic> Is there a C programmer here who could point out any bad coding practice in my first non-trivial C program? :-) http://corewar.co.uk/robotwar/rwdc.c
16:58:16 <impomatic> E.g. not testing for an error after reading in a file, etc. It's only a short program
16:59:01 <gamemanj> Well, you don't check that the file actually opens correctly (fopen returns 0 on error)...
17:02:13 <impomatic> Thanks, I'll add that. Anything else obvious?
17:03:38 <gamemanj> (Mind, I have no idea what the code is actually doing...)
17:08:25 <impomatic> Otherwise I'll just get 100 comments about the programming style when I post it on reddit :-)
17:08:49 <impomatic> It decompiles bytecode for an Apple II program.
17:09:00 <gamemanj> Ah. Oh, and I found another error while trying to work out what it was doing...
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17:09:21 <gamemanj> If buffer[0x300] to buffer[0x3FF] does *not* contain 0,
17:09:33 <gamemanj> then it will continue reading past the end of the buffer.
17:12:16 <gamemanj> If buffer does not contain any zeroes, and the previous problem doesn't crash the program, in the second loop, once ptr reaches 0x300, ptr+0x100 will be 0x400, and... here we go again.
17:16:18 <impomatic> I suppose I ought to check for that, even though it shouldn't happen on correct input :-)
17:19:06 <gamemanj> And in the final printing loop, if operand's value can exceed 35, then you can go out of bounds of the reg array.
17:20:15 <gamemanj> Good news is AFAIK none of those allow writes.
17:25:50 <impomatic> Thanks, I might add a bounds check.
17:26:16 <impomatic> Although properly formatted data from the compiler won't be a problem
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18:31:33 <gamemanj> ...one day I was looking at esolangs.org, and I found... Rectangular SNUSP.
18:32:01 <gamemanj> I didn't even read the "Created by" until returning from getting a drink. And then... *DRAMA*
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18:53:38 <gamemanj> asiekierka, apparently, made a one-command extension to SNUSP: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Extensions_to_SNUSP#Rectangular_SNUSP (the interesting thing being how people from one community have a tendency to pop up in others...)
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19:01:18 <zzo38> The PC technical reference has schematics for MDPA and it seem that it does output colours as well as a monochrome signal.
19:14:04 <zzo38> Also why does the MDPA schematics have twelve pages but the first two are omitted? It says "Note: Logics one and two of twelve are not applicable." Why is that?
19:15:13 <gamemanj> Well, if the schematics include analogue components of the system, presumably that's where those are.
19:16:59 <gamemanj> (...this is entirely a guess. And not an educated one, either - it's just a "well presumably the schematics are for undocumented behavior spelunkers and the analogue stuff wouldn't matter to them" guess)
19:17:34 <gamemanj> Or, on the other hand, "not applicable" means that it's hardware that doesn't usually get installed
19:18:02 <zzo38> Also the RGB output of the monochrome adapter have no resistors/capacitors but the signal for intensity and for monochrome video out do have resistor/capacitor. (The monochrome monitor ignores the RGB signals but does use the intensity; it also looks like blue characters will still be underlined on the RGB output)
19:19:06 <zzo38> Has anyone ever tried using monochrome display adapter with a colour display?
19:19:31 <zzo38> (However, CGA does not output a monochrome signal; it outputs only RGBI)
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19:47:46 <zzo38> The documentation also says that bit4 of "Color Select Register" selects intensified background colours for alphanumeric mode, but from the schematics it seems that instead it is used to select intensified foreground colours for graphics mode.
19:50:06 <zzo38> Do you know why the documentation says that?
19:51:04 <zzo38> (The signal is labeled "BACKGROUND I" on the diagram even though it seem not to be used for that purpose)
19:53:37 <gamemanj> maybe the foreground/background signals and graphics/alphanumeric signals are inverted?
19:54:40 <zzo38> It does say which ones are inverted (and looking at the connections I can confirm it), and it is not inverted. (It says "+ BACKGROUND I", the plus sign indicate not inverted)
19:56:05 <gamemanj> Ah. In which case I have no idea. Where are these schematics available?
19:56:52 <zzo38> In the IBM PC technical reference book.
19:58:31 <zzo38> (Also, that bit selecting intensified background colours for alphanumeric mode does not even make much sense; there is a different bit for blinking mode which controls this.)
19:58:52 * gamemanj does a google search, and finds the "PC Technical Reference Aug81"
20:00:50 <gamemanj> apparently the technical reference starts with a bunch of legalese, including the warranty not applying to "non-IBM modification of the Product", whatever that means...
20:00:50 <zzo38> This book also contains the full PC BIOS code (except for the BASIC interpreter).
20:01:10 <gamemanj> aw, the BASIC interpreter would be the best bit!
20:02:09 <zzo38> I think possibly it is due to the BASIC interpreter was written by Microsoft and they did not give the code to IBM or permission to IBM to put it in their book. Some information about the memory map used by BASIC is provided though.
20:04:04 <impomatic> There's plenty of code for BASIC interpreters in old issues of Doctor Dobb's Journal. They're even available as bound volumes :-)
20:04:33 <pikhq> zzo38: That is almost certainly the case, yeah.
20:05:07 <pikhq> It's not *as* needed anyways: IIRC there's some fairly good commented disassemblies for the ROM BASIC interpreter anyways.
20:06:17 <gamemanj> so now to get to appendix D without pdf.js taking a year and a day to do anything
20:09:23 <gamemanj> yay, I found the "IBM MONOCHROME DISPLAY" diagram, and it says "HAZARDOUS VOLTAGES UP TO 450 VOLTS EXIST ON THE PRINTED CIRCUIT BOARDS"... presumably that's the CRT circuit, not the display adapter
20:10:04 <zzo38> Yes that is the CRT circuit. The adapter has may pages
20:10:19 <pikhq> Huh, neat. I didn't realize that's how the IBM PC cassette port worked...
20:10:33 <pikhq> The audio output of it is just the PC speaker output.
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20:11:40 <gamemanj> whoever setup the PDF apparently believed people had rotatable heads
20:11:55 <gamemanj> Logic 3: Portrait in PDF, but obviously meant to be landscape
20:12:28 <gamemanj> Logic 4: Landscape in PDF, meant to be landscape. Logic 5, Portrait, meant to be landscape...
20:16:26 <gamemanj> Print-as-PDF to extract specific pages and force them to landscape... didn't try to rotate, just scaled the content down to fit... Saving individual pages and fixing it manually...
20:17:36 <gamemanj> ...oh well, at least I found out why it's so weird: something or someone is using OCR, and presumably the (portrait-layout) page numbers confused it
20:18:56 <gamemanj> ...in other news, what's a parallel painter adapter... and why is it written like that on the document AFAIK (Logic 3)
20:20:26 <b_jonas> “whoever setup the PDF apparently believed people had rotatable heads” => hehe. mind you, pdf readers can usually rotate the pages
20:21:26 <gamemanj> Huh. Apparently pdf.js (thankfully!) rotates pages individually (I feared it would rotate all pages, thus making browsing a pain)
20:21:44 <gamemanj> ... wait a sec. Keyboard Logic 2 wasn't...
20:21:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: I have the PC XT technical manual, which also has a full disassembly of the ROM and the optional hard disk control ROM, plus some circuit diagrams, and lots of useful technical information about all the hardware and bios stuff.
20:21:53 <gamemanj> I think it might have rotated all pages
20:22:03 <b_jonas> It even has a short cpu programmer's manual
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20:22:38 <b_jonas> The ROM dumpings are in small print and almost all uppercase
20:23:18 <gamemanj> New plan: Rotate to make individual page correct, and save. Failing that, take individual pages and convert to PNG, THEN rotate them
20:23:20 <b_jonas> also, all the fucking labels have meaningless short alphanumeric names (but unique ones, they didn't have local label tech yet)
20:23:43 <b_jonas> like R1, R2, R3, R4, etc, the letter tells which section it is in
20:24:03 <gamemanj> at least it's not self-modifying
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20:26:02 <b_jonas> The problem with the PC BIOS is of course that it had a proper documented stable api, but the PC got very popular and all the programs ignored that and started to rely on lots of internal details, for more performance, so all the PC clones had to replicate all that and eventually it sort of turned into a de-facto canon
20:26:17 <b_jonas> People were no longer accessing the services through the proper interrupt functions.
20:26:44 <b_jonas> This results in the PC bios interface a horrible ugly mess, and all emulators have to emluate it
20:27:21 <gamemanj> well, presumably emulators just give up and ship a PC BIOS ROM?
20:27:41 <gamemanj> Or show an "insert ROM here" dialog like PS2 emulators do
20:27:42 <b_jonas> gamemanj: no, they can't just do that, that targets a specific old hardware
20:27:48 <pikhq> In practice most emulators ship with a custom BIOS.
20:28:06 <b_jonas> as in, they can't just ship the ancient PC rom, because that only works with that hardware, nothing newer
20:28:09 <gamemanj> well, if you're targetting newer hardware, the newer BIOS probably won't be compatible anyway
20:28:23 <pikhq> Qemu and BOCHS and probably a few others use SeaBIOS.
20:28:41 <pikhq> gamemanj: New BIOSes are *shockingly* compatible with older software.
20:29:08 <gamemanj> I get the distinct impression "save page as" in Firefox actually means "save whole document as"...
20:29:10 <pikhq> There are old programs that don't work on new machines, but by and large you can grab a brand new PC, stick DOS on it, and run old stuff just fine.
20:29:12 <zzo38> Retype the PC BIOS from the book into the computer
20:29:30 <gamemanj> zzo38: And miss out those important BASIC routines?
20:29:36 <b_jonas> gamemanj: I believe you can choose whether to save the whole document or just the HTML in the file type field of the save as dialog
20:30:01 <pikhq> Your main issue is gonna be stuff along the lines of programs not being compatible with your graphics card's CGA implementation, programs assuming a certain CPU speed, and the like.
20:30:04 <zzo38> gamemanj: Yes you will miss the BASIC routines but everything else would be included
20:30:05 <b_jonas> where's this pdf by the way? I'd like to see it
20:30:05 <gamemanj> b_jonas: I was hoping there was some way of extracting individual pages :(
20:30:14 <b_jonas> even if I have the XT manual printed, this pdf might be useful
20:30:22 <zzo38> So you can still use and write programs that don't need BASIC
20:30:29 <b_jonas> gamemanj: sure, download the pdf and then use pdfselect or something on it
20:30:57 <gamemanj> Already downloaded the PDF, it's just prerotating the schematics for reference purposes
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20:31:08 <zzo38> Also make the emulator to work better more closely to the original hardware, CRTC, CGA, MDPA, etc
20:31:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: does that version of BASIC save and load files on a casette or on the floppy?
20:31:41 <zzo38> b_jonas: I think on the cassette, although I don't have the details
20:32:51 <b_jonas> what's the least amount of RAM it was sold with?
20:33:06 <b_jonas> I sort of think it's 32K, but I'm not sure
20:34:31 <zzo38> I think the book says 16K
20:35:40 <zzo38> Also it says PC supports four diskette drives but you must connect two of them externally and two internally.
20:37:17 <gamemanj> and now for "74LS chips I don't recognize", IBM PC MDA edition: 74LS244, 74LS125 (some sort of buffer?)...
20:38:18 <gamemanj> "MC6845": now that's just cheating, how am I supposed to work out what that does???
20:38:42 <gamemanj> ...ok, TODO: read up tons of 74LS chips.
20:38:50 <gamemanj> And on all the other chips too.
20:39:17 <gamemanj> What next, 74LS42, "Integrated Microcontroller That Does Everything"?
20:40:34 <zzo38> MC6845 outputs the timing and address for a grid of tiles on the screen, as well as a signal when the cursor position is being output
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20:42:49 <b_jonas> do you mean like text mode characters?
20:42:58 <gamemanj> Presumably that and pixels in graphics mode -
20:43:15 <gamemanj> it's wired to the HSYNC and VSYNC lines, so it better be capable of handling pixel modes too...
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20:44:31 <gamemanj> Unless the "- 6845CS" chip-select line also turns off the outputs and another chip takes over, but I'd doubt it.
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20:45:09 <gamemanj> (It would make more sense for the cursor line to simply be ignored - reuse the same chip for timings...)
20:46:27 <zzo38> I think MC6845 knows nothing about graphics modes; it only outputs the address of the tile to display and the hsync/vsync, and the rest of the hardware has to deal with whatever a "tile" means.
20:47:02 <gamemanj> Which explains the data lines - configuration for how many "tiles" exist.
20:47:11 <b_jonas> gamemanj: you don't have to ignore the cursor: the docs already tell you that to hide the cursor in text mode, you must move it slightly outside the border of the screen, so I presume the BIOS simply does that when it sets up graphics mode
20:48:17 <zzo38> You program the tile address of the cursor, not the screen position, though.
20:48:34 <zzo38> if the tile address isn't one that is in the range for the screen, then it won't show the cursor.
20:48:47 <gamemanj> b_jonas: if you have real hardware, feel free to mess around with registers to put the cursor into view. I'll go hide in a cave. Near a castle. Far away.
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20:49:04 <gamemanj> (where the explodey glass fragments can't reach me)
20:51:46 <zzo38> The registers to prorgam include number of tiles per row (both timing and display amount), number of rows of tiles, number of scanlines tall of each tile, scanline numbers for cursor start/end, address of first tile to display, address of tile to display cursor on, "interlace mode" (I am not sure what this is), and light pen (not sure quite how this works either).
20:53:10 <gamemanj> oh, I know what interlace mode is, just by the name
20:53:41 <gamemanj> It'll skip every other scanline on one frame, and then draw all the ones it missed on the second, and repeat.
20:54:33 <zzo38> Maybe; this book only says that it has to be set to 2 for all of the standard modes.
20:56:11 <b_jonas> Which video card is this? The original CGA, with the text mode font in ROM unchangeable, and no 9 pixel width support?
20:56:38 <zzo38> The MC6845 is used by both CGA and MDPA video cards.
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20:57:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: how does this tile thing work? does it generate only the address into the map, or is it connected to the memory and reads the map and generates the address into the tile graphics?
20:59:17 <zzo38> Look at the schematics to see how it works.
21:00:38 <gamemanj> * schematics may be incomprehensible without detailed knowledge of several microchips, including various exotic 74LS parts, the occasional special chip, and a degree in horography.
21:01:16 <gamemanj> ...suffice to say I fulfill none of those criteria.
21:02:51 <zzo38> I don't know a lot of those things either but I can still understand most of the stuff involved
21:04:40 <gamemanj> https://ia601705.us.archive.org/32/items/bitsavers_ibmpcpc602renceAug81_17295874/6025008_PC_Technical_Reference_Aug81.pdf
21:05:13 <gamemanj> logics 1 and 2 are missing, presumed in the middle of kitten cuddling
21:06:39 <zzo38> The address output from MC6845 is doubled, and the regen memory is accessed at that address and the next one; in text mode it will then use the first one and the scanline number as input into the character generator ROM, and in graphics mode it uses the low bit of the scanline number as the high bit of regen memory address instead, and uses the data read as direct pixel data
21:07:50 <gamemanj> old computers seem to have a tendency to use complicated graphics memory addressing.
21:07:59 <b_jonas> which one was the first video card that started the strange 9 column mode?
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21:08:10 <b_jonas> I mean, it's REALLY useful, but seems strange for hardware to implement that
21:08:25 <gamemanj> Please tell me you are joking.
21:08:29 <b_jonas> gamemanj: 9 pixels horizontally per character
21:08:45 <b_jonas> that is, 9 columns of pixels within a character
21:09:19 <b_jonas> but strange because it has the pixel timing of the mode set up as if it used 8 pixels per character, but somehow multiplies it by 9/8 when it generates the signal
21:09:55 <b_jonas> I don't understand electronics, but that seems impossible to implement
21:11:57 <gamemanj> well, did the 8-pixel mode have an extra "spacing" pixel that was conveniently forgotten about?
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21:12:24 <gamemanj> Or did it literally just pull an extra pixel in the timing from nowhere?
21:12:32 <b_jonas> gamemanj: I have no idea how they do that
21:12:42 <b_jonas> it's hardware magic, I only do software
21:13:11 <gamemanj> (I'm not quite sure if literally is the right term. It's probably not. Justification: By the sound of it, it really is magic, so literally counts.)
21:13:42 <b_jonas> and that too only in like ten years later hardware, which has a programmable timer I can set to any frequency (within limits) so at that points it's much easier
21:13:59 <b_jonas> not the original hardware from back when electronics was more difficult
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21:16:47 <b_jonas> Back in the old times near 2001 or something, when I had a pentium and a CRT (I got the first TFT later), so getting a fast vsync still mattered, but the computer was slow and had little memory so I couldn't just use graphics mode all the time, I experimented with the video card,
21:17:35 <b_jonas> and set up the video mode to a particular resolution I wanted (100x37 characters 9x16 pixels per character or something like that, I'm not sure) and as high vsync as possible:
21:18:19 <f10d4> nontrivial 1d elementary cellular automata rules list: 18 22 26 30 ?41? 45 54 60 62! ?73? 90 105 ?106? 110! 122 126 146 150!
21:18:45 <b_jonas> the limit was the video card, because even though it can handle quite high sync rates in graphics mode, the text mode part can't, so between 90 and 100 hertz vsync the pixel rate got so high that the character generator couldn't keep up with the speed, and sometimes generated artifacts
21:19:12 <f10d4> these rules at least preserve chaos starting from random initial configuration
21:19:13 <b_jonas> I could prove that 100 hertz didn't work, and 95 hertz seemed to work, so I used 90 hertz starting from that,
21:19:38 <b_jonas> and kept that in text mode until much later when I got the first TFT.
21:19:51 <b_jonas> These days I just use graphics mode almost all the time.
21:20:02 <fizzie> I remember the 9-pixel-wide-character modes have a thing where the 8th column is copied to the 9th (instead of it being always blank) for some fixed range of characters, so that line-drawing doesn't have gaps.
21:20:59 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, and that's how cp437 is arranged, so I think at least _some_ hardware at that time (one of CGA, the monochrome controller, or the printer) must have already done 9 pixel mode at that time.
21:21:54 <b_jonas> arranged in a way that those characters are in a consecutive range of 24 characters
21:22:36 <b_jonas> ah yes, the monochrome adapter was 9 pixel wide
21:22:42 <b_jonas> and the cga was 8 pixel wide
21:23:35 <zzo38> Do you see that the monochrome adapter does have RGB output (although not used by the monochrome monitor)?
21:28:21 <gamemanj> (AT0 to AT7 go to fBfGfRfI/bBbGbR)
21:30:40 <zzo38> It looks like that reverse video for monochrome output is only when the attribute byte is exactly 0x70, 0x78, 0xF0, or 0xF8; it seems that invisible character is only if the attribute byte is exactly 0x00, 0x08, 0x80, 0x88. For RGB output it would use the attribute byte as colours instead, and seems that blue characters are underlined regardless of RGB or mono output.
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21:39:08 <quintopia> who is excited about parsey mcparseface?
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21:49:23 <gamemanj> I decided to humour the name and search for it. It seems... interesting.
21:53:54 <gamemanj> However, it also looks like I'd have to first get TensorFlow running, then start Parsey McParseFace. And even then, there are many different ways to represent the same action, which need to be handled correctly by a real application.
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22:06:08 <zzo38> Now my "ff-reduce" program (part of my Farbfeld Utilities package) has support for hold-and-modify.
22:10:14 <zzo38> (This is done by adding a plus sign before the letter to indicate how to find the best palette index.)
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23:56:40 <b_jonas> Does the letter ɡ have a glyph in your font you use for irc, and does it look not very ugly?
23:58:31 <hppavilion[1]> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkOzaTtdweM made me happy today
00:00:24 <Taneb> b_jonas, it looks like a g to me
00:00:28 <Taneb> Except sort of smoother?
00:00:44 <Taneb> Like the difference between p and rho
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00:02:28 <tswett> Someone mentioned asiekierka. I've heard that name before.
00:02:43 <Taneb> They used to be in the channel a while back?
00:03:25 <oerjan> asie(kierka) visited briefly a few months ago
00:04:01 <oerjan> but it's not that often he's here
00:04:33 * oerjan wonders if int-e is here, he thinks he found the obvious solution to the a |> mx problem
00:05:39 <oerjan> after using int-e's distributivity idea
00:10:16 <oerjan> @tell int-e I found how to see a |> mx = mx: afaict by the induction in your distributivity proof, you can assume that {a+1, ..., mx} subalgebra has already been proved a shelf, and then the composition chain of (a+1) in that shelf must have power of 2 period.
00:12:03 <oerjan> @tell int-e (and that chain is equal to a |> 1, a |> 2, etc.)
00:13:35 * oerjan suddenly worries if that was spoilery
00:15:44 <oerjan> @tell int-e (modulo indexing. too many conventions being mixed around here...)
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01:32:49 <Moon_> *teases everyone with the work in progress of a text adventure game*
01:32:50 <Moon_> http://postimg.org/image/d0tklsxtd/
01:33:01 <Moon_> i made it while bored :P
01:34:01 <doesthiswork> you should add a space after "processed command was"
01:34:20 <Moon_> Already fixed in next compile (i compile every minute or so to test functions)
01:36:46 <Moon_> i didnt notice that :P
01:38:26 <zzo38> I think my custom Magic: the Gathering card called "Kjugobe's Numerical Hack" is a bit strange idea and probably does not have a lot of uses
01:40:19 <Moon_> Im sadly not programming it in a esolang
01:40:41 <Moon_> i AM planning to use a esolang in it, however
01:41:02 <Moon_> namely, a extended brainfuck
01:43:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: maybe it could be useful (but not very efficient) when you're playing a spell without paying its mana cost
01:43:48 <b_jonas> but even then, I can't think of many applications
01:44:04 <Moon_> b_jonas its esoteric (=
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01:44:51 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes that might be one use (but as you said, not very efficient).
01:46:32 <zzo38> There are also some cards that have multiple X's in their mana cost, or have an additional cost of X life in addition to the X mana.
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01:47:15 <b_jonas> zzo38: you mean like using this in an agressive deck where you have little mana and want to spend the card on it?
01:48:29 <zzo38> It still seems weak but it has uses and yes that is another one. But, you can use this on opponent's spells as well, probably this also won't be so common but maybe it is just what you need in a few unusual circumstances.
01:50:02 <b_jonas> zzo38: maybe if you had infinite (or lots of) mana, and two Isochron Sceptres, one with Disrupting Shoal and one with your card on it
01:50:09 <doesthiswork> sorry Moon_ I just realize I should have reported the bug on you userpage instead of here
01:50:57 <b_jonas> mind you, if you just want to counter every spells and have lots of mana, then there are better ways to do that
01:51:47 <b_jonas> the practical way is Silence, which requires little mana but still lets the opponent cast instants in their upkeep; if you have lots of mana then just use Force Spike
01:52:10 <zzo38> Maybe opponent used a spell to draw X cards, and X is however many cards are left in their library because they know that one of them can be certainly win with, then you can use it to force them to draw one extra card...(of course this seems unlikely)
01:52:14 <b_jonas> s/Disrupting Shoal/Spell Blast/
01:52:51 <b_jonas> Oh, you could use Spell Burst, then you'd only need lots of mana, no Isochron Scepter
01:53:39 <b_jonas> (And, you know, if you have infinite mana and access to multiple specific crazy cards, you could just win instead.)
01:55:17 <zzo38> Yes, if you have the correct cards to win in that situation of course.
01:56:23 <Moon_> doesthiswork, that is for my interpreters
01:56:39 <Moon_> anything on the wiki that i wrote and you found a bug for goes there
01:58:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Moon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47024&oldid=46993 * Moon * (+30)
02:00:44 <b_jonas> Maybe you could use Kjugobe's Numerical Hack defensively from a sideboard against spells like Spell Burst, Desembowel, Molder, Immortal Servitude, Punishment, or even against Forced March to kill your opponent's creatures too
02:01:29 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose there is that doo
02:01:32 <b_jonas> Also, wait, against Spell Blast you can *only* use it defensively, not offensively on your own spell, because that targets (and so does Molder etc)
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02:02:21 <b_jonas> And you can't just make the hack let you choose new targets for the spell, that would be too powerful
02:02:33 <b_jonas> for {U} as the cost that is
02:02:53 <b_jonas> and at {UU} cost the increase X thing would be almost useless
02:02:57 <zzo38> Yes it doesn't change the targets.
02:03:43 <zzo38> So for some spells that target X permanents or whatever, it has a missing target and won't change its effect unless the X does something else too.
02:08:54 <zzo38> I made up some more new cards by now
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02:14:01 <b_jonas> zzo38: not just "won't change the effect", but will also counter those that require a target with mana cost (exactly) X, like Disembowel
02:14:36 <zzo38> Yes, it will do that too, I realized that.
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02:52:21 <doesthiswork> I found that continuous logic works much better when x^2 = x
02:53:46 <doesthiswork> standard definitions are "a and b = a*b" and "not a = 1-a"
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03:47:36 <BlueProtoman> hppavilion[1]: You're working within a system that's inherently biased towards scalars. You are, as usual, marginalizing vectors, matrices, quaternions, and basically every other mathematical structure out there. *You are helping to perpetuate the institutionalized domainism that governs mathematics.*
03:48:40 <hppavilion[1]> BlueProtoman: Um, I'm pretty sure that most mathematical structures (groups, rings, etc.) with * and + require that a(b+c) = ab+ac
03:55:25 <BlueProtoman> hppavilion[1]: Ok, but what if we redefine * and +? In fact, who says we have to even use those oh fuck it even if this were a controversial topic I'm not very good at this.
03:56:56 <BlueProtoman> I guess it's good that I'm not very good at starting drama, huh?
03:58:58 <quintopia> the distributive property is communist. trump says if a term is not a hard-working, tax-paying citizen, it won't get any factors
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05:06:14 <HackEgo> pi is a very round number.
05:06:40 <HackEgo> Piet is a really colorful programming language.
05:07:16 <HackEgo> brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs. The name is a euphemism for "beef". bf -c -t "+>+++++>+++" | mklang --array
05:07:31 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: mklang: not found
05:07:56 <HackEgo> FreeFull is either full of freedom or free of fulldom, we are not sure.
05:08:20 <HackEgo> Moon is a person, not an unretroreflectorey object.
05:09:33 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
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06:24:17 <shachaf> There's such a thing as an "oplax monoidal functor" and also such a thing as a "Hopf lax monoidal functor". This is great.
06:24:33 <zzo38> What are those things?
06:25:01 <shachaf> An oplax monoidal functor a dual of a lax monoidal functor.
06:26:17 <shachaf> A Hopf lax monoidal functor has to do with Hopf monoids, which I don't know much about. https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/Hopf+monoid
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07:51:51 <hppavilion[1]> Everyone knows the world is a tau-dimensional hypercone
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07:54:51 <Cale> hppavilion[1]: I have a friend who has onset schizophrenia and has been bitten by that particular conspiracy theory
07:55:31 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: I'd say the appropriate social response for such a situation, but I don't know it
08:01:20 <Cale> hppavilion[1]: eh, mostly it means that I'm annoyed with him whenever he gets on that topic :)
08:04:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47025&oldid=46866 * 79.136.173.159 * (+314) /* Nice idea */ new section
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08:10:17 <HackEgo> Stanisław Lem was a Polish logician who discovered the law of excluded middle.
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08:40:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47026&oldid=47025 * 79.136.173.159 * (+1214) /* Befunge programs? */
08:43:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47027&oldid=47026 * 79.136.173.159 * (+130) forgot to signature
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08:45:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47028&oldid=47027 * 79.136.173.159 * (+38)
08:58:36 <izabera> how do i find the pid of x if i know $DISPLAY?
09:04:00 <Human_61> haha, all my edits are displayed here
09:04:22 <Human_61> hmm, now i will revise my edits 9 times instead of three
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09:10:29 <Human_61> Looks like many people, but so silent...
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10:22:39 <Taneb> It's Eurovision tonight!
10:22:45 <Taneb> I have an exam in three hours
10:32:55 <myname> people are watching that?
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11:00:51 <Taneb> myname, not yet, I will be later
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11:56:40 <FireFly> Not because it's good, but because it's silly
11:57:34 <fizzie> Everyone watches the Eurovision.
11:57:42 <fizzie> Or so I keep thinking, but apparently that's not true.
11:58:01 * gamemanj is currently watching a screen on which the words "Everyone watches the Eurovision." are visible...
11:58:06 <fizzie> I even watched the semifinals for some reason.
11:58:30 <fizzie> They said they're broadcasting them live for the first time in US and [some other place I forgot].
11:59:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Shard]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=47029 * SMA * (+835) new article
11:59:39 <f10d4> I have degree in art history, music literature.
11:59:46 <f10d4> this "popular" music is yid
11:59:54 <f10d4> with rare exceptions.
12:00:04 <f10d4> so know the origin
12:00:28 <f10d4> please do not be offtopik, do not refer to kikkevision
12:02:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:SMA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47030&oldid=42715 * SMA * (+36) Shard added
12:02:55 <myname> if i want to hear crappy music, i can always use youtube
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12:16:13 <fizzie> myname: You're quite right -- they stream it live in Youtube.
12:18:33 <fizzie> Anyway, it's a channel tradition to speak about it at this time of the year. http://sprunge.us/OjMR
12:24:44 <gamemanj> Good news: I *think* my BytePusher-program-graph-creator is working. Bad news: The analysis takes way too much time.
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12:29:48 <int-e> . o O ( not now, can't you see I'm busy )
12:31:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Shard]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=47031 * 79.136.173.159 * (+111) Created page with "But wait, [[Seed]] is first! --~~~~"
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12:32:56 <gamemanj> ...so what's Shard's binary executable format?
12:34:31 <gamemanj> If it's brainfuck, then it should be easy enough to write a program for it.
12:35:30 <oerjan> Human_61: a common problem on our wiki
12:36:12 <gamemanj> SHA256("b") == "[", assuming there aren't any conflicts I've missed
12:36:58 <oerjan> Human_61: as gamemanj implies, Shard looks much easier than Seed.
12:38:18 <oerjan> Human_61: oh wait, Seed is not the same thing. i'm pretty sure we have a language that is closer to Shard (but still harder) than that.
12:39:07 <Human_61> Yes, but Seed is harder to code in (saw the hello world which prints just h)
12:39:23 <int-e> oerjan: anyway, quick shot before I disappear into the jungle of the city to hunt some food: actually the version I'm working with is the "dual" one from laver.hs, and there the interesting law that depends on powers of 2 becomes a |> 0 = 0.
12:39:26 <oerjan> oh ShaFuck. although that's actually been broken.
12:40:21 <oerjan> int-e: well i can't keep up to your indexing, but i just wanted to know if you agree with my suggestion for completing the proof.
12:40:32 <gamemanj> oerjan: well, in general, if you can convince the interpreter to ignore all but one byte in most situations, then it gets easier
12:40:57 <f10d4> I proved turing-completeness of some ancient languages
12:41:02 <f10d4> and shell environments
12:41:07 <oerjan> f10d4: you already said so
12:41:21 <f10d4> will be presented at the end of July
12:41:21 <oerjan> well maybe not the second part.
12:41:40 <int-e> oerjan: yes that's basically how I think about it.
12:41:45 <fizzie> gamemanj: ShaFuck doesn't allow for comments.
12:42:05 <gamemanj> fizzie: ah, that could complicate things a little
12:42:17 <fizzie> Per the spec, anyway. It was "broken" in the sense that the interpreter had a vulnerability. It's all there on http://esolangs.org/wiki/ShaFuck
12:43:54 <int-e> oerjan: the main reason that I like the dual version is that all tables are initial squares of the same infinite table, without any manipulation of top bits.
12:44:24 <oerjan> int-e: also, the only spot that needs thinking about bit is when proving laver tables that are shelfs must have length 2^n.
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12:47:09 <oerjan> int-e: oh right. however, i think you still need the smaller tables up until the point you've proved that x |> 0 = 0 in all of them.
12:48:13 <oerjan> or well, that they coincide.
12:50:43 <oerjan> fizzie: the icons in the editing menu on the wiki have disappeared. i have to look at the hovertext to find where to click :/
12:51:35 <oerjan> admittedly, i _could_ finally memorize the markup for signing, but still...
12:53:37 <fizzie> oerjan: Is this a recent thing?
12:53:54 <fizzie> Hm. They're gone for me as well.
12:53:59 <oerjan> well i just discovered it this week i think, but admittedly i haven't been editing much...
12:54:19 <fizzie> It's been a while since I last upgraded, but that did break some things.
12:54:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Shard]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47032&oldid=47031 * Oerjan * (+108) Or [[ShaFuck]]
12:54:35 <fizzie> (They had moved things around, and the short-link rewrite rules didn't cover everything they needed.)
12:54:50 <oerjan> i may have seen it before and ignored it...
12:55:18 <fizzie> Yeah, https://esolangs.org/w/extensions/WikiEditor/modules/images/toolbar/button-sprite.svg gives a 404.
12:55:28 <oerjan> also, i haven't written on talk pages, which is the only time i need it.
13:01:20 <fizzie> Huh, we're actually still up to date. There's been no new MediaWiki releases since 2015-12-21.
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13:05:12 <oerjan> @tell doesthiswork <doesthiswork> I found that continuous logic works much better when x^2 = x <-- indeed, that's called a "boolean ring" for essentially that reason.
13:15:15 <oerjan> <Human_61> hmm, now i will revise my edits 9 times instead of three <-- i recommend preview hth
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13:31:25 <HackEgo> pi is a very round number.
13:32:39 <oerjan> `learn Help is on the way. We don't know where the way is, though. You might try `help instead.
13:32:44 <HackEgo> Learned 'help': Help is on the way. We don't know where the way is, though. You might try `help instead.
13:39:58 <gamemanj> At thw end of infinity, every word with a capitalized first letter will be a reference to something.
13:41:06 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
13:43:51 <gamemanj> and now for your regularly scheduled subliminal messaging. -- --- .-. ... . / .. ... / - .... . / ..-. ..- - ..- .-. .
13:52:49 <oerjan> stupid thing doesn't actually use unicode :(
13:54:55 <oerjan> and this other site that claims to use unicode doesn't work either :(
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14:02:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: <command>: not found
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14:03:19 <oerjan> `mkx bin/<command>//echo Stop taking everything literally!
14:03:30 <HackEgo> Stop taking everything literally!
14:03:35 <xfix> Eh, I guess I should use run to have a syntax error.
14:03:36 <xfix> `run <command>
14:03:37 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `newline' \ bash: -c: line 0: `<command>'
14:03:49 <oerjan> i can't help with that one, alas
14:04:13 <xfix> `run echo $PATH
14:04:14 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
14:04:30 <xfix> `ls /hackenv/bin
14:04:32 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ \ ! \ ? \ ?? \ ¿ \ ' \ @ \ * \ ؟ \ \ \ \ 1492 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 5quote \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addtodo \ aglist \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ append \ arienvenido \ as86 \ aseen \ asm \ autowelcome \ bardsworthlist \ before \ benvenuto \ bf \ bff \ bienvenido \ bienvenue \ bin \ b
14:04:36 <oerjan> the /opt/ghc/bin hasn't been there in a while...
14:04:56 <xfix> I know the next command will fail, but just curious...
14:05:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ghci: not found
14:05:06 <oerjan> that's what i told you.
14:05:32 <oerjan> that one takes ages to time out
14:05:44 <xfix> `run cat <<< hi
14:05:54 <oerjan> because it's reading from some open stream that never writes anything, i think
14:06:06 <oerjan> (there should have been a </dev/null there, maybe)
14:06:21 <HackEgo> USER PID %CPU %MEM VSZ RSS TTY STAT START TIME COMMAND \ 0 1 0.0 0.1 1012 272 ? S 13:06 0:00 /init \ 0 2 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S 13:06 0:00 [kthreadd] \ 0 3 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S 13:06 0:00 [ksoftirqd/0] \ 0 4 0.0 0.0 0 0 ?
14:06:26 <xfix> `ps aux > processes
14:06:26 <HackEgo> error: unsupported option (BSD syntax) \ \ Usage: \ ps [options] \ \ Try 'ps --help <simple|list|output|threads|misc|all>' \ or 'ps --help <s|l|o|t|m|a>' \ for additional help text. \ \ For more details see ps(1).
14:06:29 <xfix> `run ps aux > processes
14:06:41 <oerjan> other than that, HackEgo seems unusually speedy at the moment.
14:07:11 <oerjan> (i just had to go and ruin that, didn't i)
14:07:25 <HackEgo> resethaxcoin sysicacoin liquishachcoin haincoin aalcoin parnalcoin flasscoin exconfortecoin silcoin backmannellengroflcoin kvicecoin yardinecoin scabrcoin madscoin fraecursoncoin magnantstracoin carucoin braiself-modcoin latlcoin selfcoin
14:07:32 <gamemanj> `system-add-module go-faster-stripes
14:07:34 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: system-add-module: not found
14:08:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pacman: not found
14:09:30 <gamemanj> `mkx bin/pacman//echo Error: Could not install package, system is actually a cat.
14:10:36 <gamemanj> (...presumably there's some obvious joke about the name "pacman" I could've used, but meh)
14:11:39 <fizzie> The most obvious joke would've been to just echo "Chomp, chomp, chomp!" or some-such.
14:12:54 <gamemanj> Chomping packages... systemd [1/8] nautilus [2/8] networkmanager [3/8] ERROR: Could not connect to network.
14:13:31 <gamemanj> (where "systemd" and "nautilus" can be any package name and "networkmanager" can be anything someone would consider critical to networking.)
14:14:29 <HackEgo> File: `-' \ Size: 0 Blocks: 0 IO Block: 4096 character special file \ Device: 1h/1dInode: 205 Links: 1 Device type: 4,1 \ Access: (0644/crw-r--r--) Uid: ( 0/ UNKNOWN) Gid: ( 0/ UNKNOWN) \ Access: 2016-05-14 13:14:26.804271000 +0000 \ Modify: 2016-05-14 13:14:26.804271000 +0000 \ Change: 2016-05-14 13
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14:47:07 <HackEgo> Usage:coin wordscoin [-dhNo]coin [DATASETS...]coin [NUMBER_OF_WORDS]coin \ coin \ options:coin \ coin coin -l,coin --listcoin coin coin coin coin coin coin coin coin coin coin coin coin listcoin validcoin datasetscoin \ coin coin -d,coin --debugcoin coin
14:47:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cpoms: not found
14:47:51 <HackEgo> comcoin tauncoptcoin dodedinworkcoin woodcoin lieusicicoin schcoin nccidcoin auntercoin vardecoin capuarecoin numpcoin sorragsallcoin xenamentropylierdotypherstacktranchcoin kolmensidecoin excelacoin chatcoin sableqcoin ihoutcoin crailbrcoin bytolcoin
14:48:08 <ybden> :D: are these random
14:48:24 <fizzie> Yeah, it's a character n-gram thing.
14:48:57 <fizzie> Trained on various things you can choose from, but the default for coins is an equal mixture of esolang names (from the wiki) and English words.
14:49:27 <HackEgo> edaretacoin (L-T:coin 3)coin
14:49:45 <fizzie> And the actual command is `words, `coins just adds the 'coin' suffix and the colors.
14:49:45 <ybden> hmm, does --help choose a options dataset?
14:49:52 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
14:50:04 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset
14:50:22 <HackEgo> Usage:coin wordscoin [-dhNo]coin [DATASETS...]coin [NUMBER_OF_WORDS]coin \ coin \ options:coin \ coin coin -l,coin --listcoin coin coin coin coin coin coin coin coin coin coin coin coin listcoin validcoin datasetscoin \ coin coin -d,coin --debugcoin coin
14:50:38 <fizzie> I still can't not laugh at the coinified help.
14:51:01 <HackEgo> convertenucoin (L-T:coin 3)coin
14:51:24 <HackEgo> Argument "doom" isn't numeric in int at /hackenv/bin/words line 148. \ coin
14:51:33 <fizzie> I think the debug output is just the "(L-T: 3)" part, which has something to do with the word length thing.
14:52:17 <boily> how come "doom" ain't numeric? of course it's a number! it's the one that comes before infinity hth
14:53:31 <fizzie> Synthesizing from a n-gram isn't a particularly good way to get a realistic distribution of word lengths, so it does some sort of an ad-hoc tweak, I forget exactly what.
14:58:57 <Taneb> First exam complete
15:01:10 <fizzie> Something like having a target length sampled from a Gaussian, and then tweaking the end-of-word probabilities to bias towards that. Or something.
15:01:54 <boily> Tanelle! how many left?
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15:07:06 <xfix> `len Hello, world.
15:07:37 <xfix> Yay, I managed to upload a binary :).
15:10:11 <xfix> `len ¯\(°_o)/¯
15:10:15 <HackEgo> 10 codepoints \ 15 UTF-8 bytes
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15:11:38 <boily> xfix: I only count 9 codepoints?
15:11:45 <gamemanj> in theory, BytePusher programs are FSMs.
15:12:14 <gamemanj> in practice, "finite" is still very big. http://hastebin.com/raw/icizenavod
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15:13:13 <xfix> Hm, that's interesting...
15:13:29 <gamemanj> ah, forgot to explain the syntax of the analysis results
15:13:45 <xfix> U+00B0 and U+200B.
15:13:57 <xfix> Why does that string have U+200B in it anyway?
15:14:20 <oerjan> xfix: it's there to avoid triggering a script
15:14:36 <oerjan> however, the guy with the script left long ago...
15:14:56 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
15:14:58 <zzo38> A simple way to count the number of UTF-8 characters in a string is to count the number of bytes that are not in range 0x80 to 0xBF (if using the extension for arbitrary large numbers, then also omit 0xFF bytes from the total)
15:15:11 <oerjan> but he's no longer using the script :(
15:15:21 <boily> myndzi doesn't react to celebrations anymore? :(
15:15:38 <zzo38> (Actually the extension for arbitrary large number is a bit more complicated than that I think?)
15:15:39 <boily> *soulful mapole whistle*
15:15:43 <xfix> Sure enough, that would work.
15:15:52 <gamemanj> why exactly do the celebrations have people looking not exactly happy
15:15:53 <xfix> The program checks UTF-8 validity for no real reason however.
15:15:55 <oerjan> *sound of galloping meese*
15:16:04 <xfix> I don't know how to trick my IRC client into outputting invalid Unicode however.
15:16:49 <zzo38> My IRC client cannot send any non-ASCII characters although it is capable of receiving them.
15:16:59 <HackEgo> 1 codepoint \ 2 Java characters \ 4 UTF-8 bytes
15:17:19 <gamemanj> (Hmm. Was it Ode To Joy? IDK.)
15:17:32 <HackEgo> U+1F60A SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES \ UTF-8: f0 9f 98 8a UTF-16BE: d83dde0a Decimal: 😊 \ 😊 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
15:17:38 <boily> tumbling down tumbling down tumbling down ♪
15:18:00 <xfix> I wanted to make fun of Java, I do admit...
15:18:08 <zzo38> Does "Java characters" mean how many characters when converted to UTF-16?
15:18:18 <gamemanj> TBH, both C# and Java have one common problem...
15:18:31 <oerjan> gamemanj: because they're missing parts, presumably.
15:18:43 <gamemanj> Which means that operations on strings...
15:18:56 <gamemanj> are just about as useful as they are in UTF-8: I.e. NOT AT ALL
15:19:11 <zzo38> I think they are useful.
15:19:17 <zzo38> It depends on what you are doing of course
15:19:42 <gamemanj> zzo38: Well, presumably they don't intend anyone to ever have to implement a "backspace" or "delete character" button in C# or Java
15:20:21 <xfix> To be fair, even if you implement it over codepoints, it's still not really useful.
15:20:22 <zzo38> gamemanj: Actually, it is easy both with UTF-16 and UTF-8, although a string could be non-Unicode
15:20:26 <HackEgo> 1 grapheme \ 2 codepoints \ 3 UTF-8 bytes
15:20:37 <xfix> 2 codepoints, but one visible character.
15:20:49 <zzo38> Unicode is full of stupid I think
15:20:57 <HackEgo> 1 codepoint \ 2 UTF-8 bytes
15:21:20 <zzo38> JavaScript also uses 16-bit characters in a string, and there are separate functions for treating the characters as raw 16-bit values or as UTF-16 values.
15:21:21 <boily> Unicode: It's Perfect, and so is Han Unification.
15:21:33 <gamemanj> Thing is, it's not even a matter of "visible character". Visuals are the font renderer's job, and you kind of need combining chars to keep the codepoint count sane...
15:21:34 <HackEgo> Unicode is a mess invented in 1988 by Xerox, Microsoft, the Spanish Inquisition, and the evil Human Supremacy Corporation, in order to make it easier for the government to spy on Chinese people.
15:22:10 <gamemanj> It's a matter of how the font renderer is going to even know what codepoints those are...
15:22:40 <zzo38> gamemanj: It should be specified in the font metric file.
15:22:58 <gamemanj> zzo38: Yes, but if everything's specified in Unicode Codepoints,
15:23:02 <gamemanj> and the text input is in UTF-16,
15:23:13 <xfix> `len 🌴 🐪🐫🐪🐫🐪 🌞 𝕲𝖔 𝕿𝖍𝖔𝖚 𝖆𝖓𝖉 𝕯𝖔 𝕷𝖎𝖐𝖊𝖜𝖎𝖘𝖊 🌞 🐪🐫🐪 🐁
15:23:14 <HackEgo> 46 codepoints \ 77 Java characters \ 139 UTF-8 bytes
15:23:15 <gamemanj> then the font renderer or text field implementation or whatever has to handle text decoding -
15:23:29 <gamemanj> which should be the job of <insert framework library here>,
15:23:32 <xfix> I'm surprised this Stack Overflow post doesn't use graphemes...
15:23:35 <gamemanj> not something the user should have to do.
15:23:48 <zzo38> It could easily convert UTF-16 to codepoint numbers, although it would also be possible for the font metric file to include that too
15:24:03 <gamemanj> The font metric file probably shouldn't include it
15:24:31 <gamemanj> because that's not the font metric file's job. The font metric file's supposed to handle the unicode combining char mess.
15:24:31 <xfix> `len NΘ stop the an*̶͑̾̾̅ͫ͏̙̤g͇̫͛͆̾ͫ̑͆l͖͉̗̩̳̟̍ͫͥͨe̠̅s ͎a̧͈͖r̽̾̈́͒͑e not rè̑ͧ̌aͨl̘̝̙̃ͤ͂̾̆ ZA̡͊͠͝LGΌ ISͮ̂҉̯͈͕̹̘̱ TO͇̹̺ͅƝ̴ȳ̳ TH̘Ë͖́̉ ͠P̯͍̭O̚N̐Y̡ H̸̡̪̯ͨ͊̽̅̾̎Ȩ̬̩̾͛ͪ̈́̀́͘ ̶̧̨̱̹̭̯ͧ̾ͬC̷̙̲̝͖ͭ̏ͥͮ͟Oͮ͏̮̪̝͍M̲̖͊̒ͪͩͬ̚̚͜Ȇ̴̟̟͙̞ͩ͌͝S̨̥̫͎̭ͯ̿̔̀ͅ
15:24:34 <HackEgo> 69 graphemes \ 224 codepoints \ 392 UTF-8 bytes
15:25:08 <Taneb> I'm making a list of things to do once my exams are over (after next Friday
15:25:15 <gamemanj> xfix:"No stop the animes are not real, zalgo is tiny thepo new york?"
15:25:31 <gamemanj> xfix:That's my best understanding of it
15:26:29 <gamemanj> zzo38: You could say it's easy to convert UTF-8 to Unicode codepoints, but if they're extending their definition of char to be 16-bit, why stop at 16-bit?
15:26:32 <boily> and animes are real hth
15:26:42 <oerjan> *he comes, really do you not know our lord and destroyer zalgo?
15:27:18 <xfix> Well, grapheme cluster detection seems to work, so here is that.
15:27:26 <ybden> hmm, that used up a lot of bytes
15:27:32 <gamemanj> nope, never heard of this "zalgo"
15:27:52 <zzo38> Yes I agree it isn't really the job of the font metric file, although it would be possible for example if it is a font format and program for non-Unicode 16-bit characters but the font is a Unicode font. (My "X 12" specification deals with Unicode in exactly this way, although the client that loads the font has to explicitly enable ligatures if it is to use this feature, and the server is not required to support it anyways.)
15:28:42 <moon__> T̢̯̭o̭͡ ̨͙͉̟̲͓̬̟i̢n͓̮͈̗͜v̵̦o̗k̞̮̟͠e̱̻̼̳̭͙̬ ̩̳̠t͇̜̖̲͉̱̘h̗̥̫̹͓e͈̱̱͇ ̥h̻͜ͅi̹̬v҉͚͖̮̻͉̰ͅe̸͉ͅ-̥͍̯̬̖̯m͞i̥̪͝n҉̻̘̞̻̳d͙͇͎̗̟̖ ̰͔̣͈r͚͍͜e͘p͕̞ŗ̦̫͉̥̙̲ͅḛ͙̟̺̤̻͝s̯̣͎͈͖̺͘e̜̥̭̟̻̙͔͞n͓t̰i̩ṉ͕͉̼̭͍̜g̸̬ ̡c̸̞̰̩̼h̴̼a̗̜̥͍̩̖o͔̳̹̱̱͈̦s̪̤̕.̸͖̘
15:28:42 <moon__> ͕̲̹̠͙I̛͚̯͎n͎̼͚̻̞v͖̹̙̝̩o̢̻͎͙k͙͉̩i̱n̵̫g͉̠̦̬̺̩̹͡ ͔͕̯͓͖t̷̜̦ͅh҉͖̰e̱̙͍ ̺͎̬̺͘f̮̤̰͉e̥̞̞̣̰͈͠e҉̻ͅl̹̙̣̬͙̰i̲n̠͔̗g̵̻̰ ̲̬̪̗͎͓o̟̝̳f̼̘͜ ̹̻̻͔̣̲̻c̱̫̟̘̲͕h̹͙̲a̯̪͉͔̥o̭̲̼̰̟̤̕s.̤̞
15:28:42 <moon__> ̞̹̜̭̺W̵̲̠i͎͇̻͓̫͍t͓̗̲̟̬̗h̜͞ ͉̞̯͕͇o̱̟̫̖ͅut ̤̲̣͙͕̲ͅor͖̮̫̤͍͘d̻͚̜͇͇̳͠e̬̙̦͚̺r̻.
15:28:42 <moon__> ̹̥̻̭T̖͓̣̫h͚̰͞e̱̩̦͎ͅ ̨͚̤̞N͔͘e̶̻̗͔̠̦z͍̮̰͉pe̦̼͇̮͠r̲̣̗͞d͕i̮̳̳͢a̼̬̳n͖̥͡ ͚͚̭́h̷͎͎̳͇iv̶̫͖̫̟̠̭e̟̳̹-̗̺m̵i͙͈̳̤̝ͅn͕͙̜͙͟d̜̘ ̡̤̯̭̪͖̮o̩͖̳̳ͅf͓̼̮̮ ͎c͘ḩ̮a̸̜ͅo̹͇̯͈͞s̟͔̜̪.̩̠̜͉̞̩ ̢͚͇̤Z̫̯̮̝̖a͙̱͓͡l̥̱̠̩̭̻͟g̭̯̣̤̰̼o̝̭̻͔̩͖̲͝.̗̪̺̲͙̱̕
15:28:42 <moon__> ̵̳͍̝͙H̶͈̫̯e̪̱̻̕ ̛̱͕̯͔w͔̦̩̲͈̝ͅh͏̳̲̱o̠̤͍̦͘ ̳͖̹͎̖̳͠W͝a̝̭̺̝̺̟͉i͓̫̜̳͓̼̫t͓͙̘̻͚͜ͅs͉ ̧B̫̭è̝̝h͚̞̘̭̩i̯̦̩̝̮̦̼n͚͕̕d̥͓͙͓̘͢ ̟͚T͎̰͓̫͢h̲̩̯̦̭͠e̙͇̭̳̺ͅ ̞͙̠W̴̮͙a̡̲͉̖̪̮̜ll̶͇̮̻.̢̲̜͉̠͚̘
15:28:43 <moon__> ͏͍͉͉̞Z̠A̗̩̜͍͙͠L͉͕̠̖G̸̞̟͕̱͎O̻̺!̪͓͈͎
15:28:44 -!- Human_61 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
15:29:07 <zzo38> gamemanj: Of course you don't have to stop and 16-bits. An implementation I wrote supports 36-bit codepoints when converting from/to UTF-8.
15:29:10 <moon__> *Reacts gamemanj with tht*
15:29:23 <zzo38> gamemanj: It is meant to be the successor of X 11
15:29:48 <gamemanj> moon__: Fine, you want to go ahead and confuse me? Fine. then i // shall confuse you
15:30:01 <moon__> T͆̈́ͮ̌҉͔̯̞͚̲̗͈̼̕͝ỏ̫̟͖̱̪͔̻̥͕̙͈ͬ͌̀̀̚̕͢ ̒ͧͮͬͥ͂ͣ͑ͬ͗̂̎̓҉̸̢̦̯̲̳͞ͅi͙͚͎͙͖͐̉̐͆ͯ͢͡͠n̷͔͖̰͖̰̝̹̪̗̖͔̺̤͖̽̈̍̆͗̑̽͑͆̒̽͊͊̅ͥ̔̚͠v̡͙͇̻͍̼̩̮͎͈̝̘̬̻̭̖̈́͗ͫ̄ͭ̓͌͌ͯ̏ͫͮ͐̑̀͠o̧ͪ̏ͤ̀̈̔̐̿ͯ͂ͨ́͞҉͙̰̲͚̥̭̗͍̘̭͔̯k̶͆͆ͬͫ̃ͤͦ͗̓ͧ͡͏͍̫̞̼͍̠͇̙͖̺̝̦̼̘͜͞ͅë́̒
15:30:01 <moon__> ̷͔̥̟͈̳̝̫̜̺̹͒ͦ͒̊̑ͨ̒͋̈́̄́͘͜͡ ̢̛̬̻̱̹̻̯̪̊̔ͥ̑̽͂̀͠͠t̙̩̤͉̘̻͙̗̟͎͈̯͙͐̎͗ͩ̋̓ͪ̉͂̓ͯ̂͢h̃̊ͥ̄̄̅̾ͥ̏ͭ҉̭̣̩̮̝̦́̕͞e̡̺̦̠̦̩̖̅͐͒̾̎̐͌ͥͮ̒͋ͩ͑͛͒̔̆́̚̚͟͟ ̷̸̜̠̩̜̥̭̟̍͒̏̍ͤ͆͑ͥ͟͞͞ȟ̡̩̺̩͔̦̖̀̂̊ͯ̊̈ị͚̣̪̲̥̖͈̼̪̗̓̈̅̎̒̈́̑̐͐͗͐͠v̛̰̭̟̪̹̌ͪ̂̈́̽ͥͤ̔ͮ͠͞ͅ
15:30:01 <moon__> è̴̴̷̺͎̺̖͇̻̻͇͙̳̪͓̬͇͇̹̮̯̮ͯ̈́ͩͥ́̚-̷̷͖̖̮͈̞̪͚͔͍̯̠̼̠̮͙̾̔̍͌ͧ͡m̨̙̖̩̺̭̲̥̩͔̱̞̣̠̉̎ͤ͌̋͌̄ͬ͐ͪ͋͊ͦ̔͋̚͢͠͡į͒̇̑͑̊͊ͣͬ͐ͭ͋͏̧̘̰̼̯̮̲͖͟n̴̪͚̞̣̙̫̜̖̖̪̭̋ͧͫ͌̐̃̾̄̍ͨ͆ͧ̂̋̊ͥͬ͛͌͝͠d̵̴̸͍̖̗͈̗̯͈͎͈͔͕̲̐̒̈ͬ̽̀̋̀͞ ͗͊̒ͨ̍̍̈́̂̉҉̸̞͎͚̞͎̫̱̹͇̯̭͞r͒͌͛͌͑͠҉̣
15:30:01 <moon__> ͚͎͙͚̭e̠͕̳͈̱̬̽̍ͩ̑ͩ͆̃̀̕͟p̨͉̲̖͇̊ͨ̽ͩ̐͑ͯͦ̀͠͡r̴̷͔̱̹̪̺͓̲̠̙̼̱͇ͣ̒̉̔͐͂ͯ̐ͧͫ͌ͯ͋̌͟͝e̴̴̻̤͇͍͕͖̳̮͎̣̟ͬͭͨ̒͗ͮ̂͛̈̋ͦ̋̎̀́s͋͐ͤ̐̈́̿ͣ̒̐̿̉ͥ͏͖̤͖͔̫͙͔̻͈̖͙͕̜̱̜͟ͅẹ̸̛̥̦̟̳̟̗̺͖̳̥͚̜̟̮̳̱̥ͦͪ̄ͭ̈͑̐͂̏̀́n͒͗ͫ̂ͣͮ̈́͌̃ͭ̈̉ͯ͛̄ͨ̔̊ͮ́҉̲̙̹͎̗͔̣̙̦̭̪̘̖t̔ͩ͂̈ͮ̚
15:30:01 <moon__> ͒͐̓ͦͤ̐̾͐̚͢҉̶̺͇̬̹̻͇̗͖͎̗̯͓͙̹̻̠͉͢ͅi͍̲̝͕̠̹͈͈̪̠̖̮̜ͨ̾ͧ̐̐͛ͣ͂̈͒ͫ̚̕͟͞ṇ̢̢̫͖̼̦͓̤̬̱̱͂ͫ̑̀́ͣ̎̅̊ͫ̏͆̃̇̈́͛ͧ̀ģ͙͎̯̲̟̥̯̞̝̙̫̹̤̭͖̬̙̍ͨ̇̌̀͐̾̿ͫ ̷͔̻̹͉̗͉̀̒̄͑̽̾͌̾̑͊́̍̃̃ͪ́́ͅċ̨̾ͫ̃̽ͬ̊̌ͤ̂̆̂͗͌ͭ̀͊̚͘͏͕̫̮̭̱̙͇͙̩̦̙͕̠ḩ̢͐͑ͭ̄̊̔͑́ͣ͗̒ͫ͛̒ͪͯ́̚
15:30:01 <moon__> ͔͎͔̗̫̮͓̱̺̯̭̻a̢̡̤̖͎͍̞̪͋͒̏́ͥ̎̽ͬ͘̕o̵͙̦̺͙̮̗͚̪̟̪̻̥̬ͯͭ́̌̇ͩ͐̓ͯ̈̚͞s̢̛̬̪̩̜̮̬̬̺̺̼͕̬̯̠̮̫̾̔ͤ̓̓̀ͤ͒̒̓͐̿́͜͝.̢̠̭̖͕̪͍̬͔̥̯͉̬̫̞̝̩̭̪̉͗ͤ͂̽ͨͯ̑̐ͮ͌ͦ̚͡
15:30:02 <moon__> ̸̛̩͍͚͉͖̰̘͙̮̻͉̺̗̯̙̰̈́͊͋̓̐̚͘̕ͅI̓ͣ͑̅ͤ́̓ͮ̑҉̠̠͎̜̟̘̩͎̲̩͜ň̦͙̬͓̗̘̗̗̭͉̠̪ͣ̉̆̓ͯ̃͐̎̒̆͗̇̓̅̊̂͋̕͘̕͠v̢̹̹͓̼̱͔͚̭͓̮̲͍̖̬̣̄͊͒́̅͐̓ͮ͋ͥͮ̇̃͋ͨ́ͅǫ̣̺̮̣̹͙̮̣̞͈͈̉̍ͧ̒̆͗̓ͨ͛͋̐̆͛͜kͭͥͬ̎ͤ̀́͊̀̇̆̏͊҉̧̝̩̬̹̯̦̻͎̣̗͈͉̜͜͠ͅi̡̋̉̐̃́͑͆̔́ͬͦ͆҉̵҉̻̲̭̦̰̼̜͡
15:30:02 <moon__> ͓̰͈͙̺̝̳͓n͕̱̯̫͙͓̫͇̪͋͊͗̈́̄ͥ͗͛͒̿͑ͮ͋͟g̵͓͙̣̥̪̞͙͖͕̝̼̱̅͛ͧ̆ͩ̑̃̓͐̂͒̆̑ͭ̽͛̀̀͜ ̢̡̞̳̥̻̺̹͙̰̘̖͉̫͈̳̣͚̙͈̝̃ͯ̍̔̕͜t̨̪̖̳̖͚̱̗̘̦̫̳̏̋̏ͨͨh̠̘̲̙͕̘̩̮̞̿̃ͬͣ̈̓̈̈́̄͘͡ȩ̴͚͇̱̯͍̒ͯͣ̑̆̇̍͛͑̌͆̚͜͞ ͈̪̥͕̦͈͉̦͉͙̬̟̺̓͊ͭ̅̀̈́̌̽͂̄̔̄͐̈ͦ̀͠͡ͅf̵̑̉͆̓͋ͬ͐̉͆҉̷̸̩͎̤̜̠̺̘̱͝
15:30:03 <moon__> ͚͕̰̰͖̪͙ę̶̶̖̜͉̬̘̬̞̱͓̳̘͖̗̬̣̦̀̈͂ͭ͌̊̔̽e̶͂ͮ̅͛͗ͭ̽͗̇́̃̽̑̃̚͏̱͍͈̥̀l̛̛͙͓̘̗̲͍̺̹̣̝͊ͦ͗̈̂̌ͭͦͥ̓̂̀̌̉̈́̆̔́͂͜͜i̵̵̧͖̞̤̱̺̜̭ͣ̅̐̂̓̂̐ͣ̾̚͟n̶ͪ̍ͭͪ͋ͧ͂͋̽̅͆ͦ͗͌͏̻͚̳͖͍̻̻͉̫͎g̡̫̜̫̮̳̦͕͔͉͎ͪ̿̈͌ͭ̅̃ͫ͒̊̃ͦ̊ͪ̆̂͠ͅ ̷̜̙̤̼͂̆̿̄̇̃̾̽̑̑̉̾͆̍͊͗͘ô̴̠̅̈́ͩ̾͒̃ͤͮ̈ͨ̓
15:30:03 <moon__> ͕̤̘̖̣̬̣̖̦̞̯̣͍̜̠̼f̷̧̣̩ͨ̌ͥͧͯ͒́̋͗͛̽̍̉ͤ͟͠͞ͅ ̨̨̊̓ͮ͌̈ͥ́̐̀̒͐ͮͪ͊̽̏̀ͬ̍͏̵̡̠̫̲͚͚̱͕̺̟̦͓̳c̷̗̻̱̦̩ͨ̽ͯ͌̑̽̅̊̌̅̕͠͡h̵̨͇͍͈̻̯͚̙̗̜͑ͭ̈́ͧ̋ͭͬ̉ͫ͆ͭ̚͢͝å͛͒ͬͨ̉̀͒͌ͣ͑̈́͘͏̘͈̥̟̦̝ơ̢̦̬̤̪̙̘̪̥̤͔̞͔̩̹̘͎͈͂ͭͩͦ̅̉ͫ̂ͧ͗ͭ̎͋̌ͬ͟͡͠s̴̴̛ͬ͗̋̓ͭͦ̿̅ͦ̏̀ͫ̊̒ͯ͊͑̈ͪ́
15:30:04 <moon__> ͖̙̙̠͈͞.̛ͩ̉ͧ͑͊̒̕͠҉̺̪̦̘̩
15:30:04 <moon__> ̧̨̨̙̟̞̯͔͓̤̞͙̗̹̞̱̝̭̗̽̾́ͯ̑ͥͩͭͦ̃̀͢W̵̵̢̼͉͍̝̽̂̾̅̈́̈̚͘ȋͩͪ̆͋ͣ̊ͤ̒̋̋̚͜͢͏̝̹͕͍̞͕̙͕͇̦͔̠̦ṯ̡̘͖̮̖̬͎̗ͦͧͮ̽͗͂ͩ̉̈̓ͭ̚͘͢ḥ̷̣̲̬̖̟̤̣͙̟͖̟̙̝̝̭̝̭̣̈̃̈͌͒͋̋ͦͫ͆̏̍́́͘ ̽ͣ͌ͦ̉͊ͣ̅͆ͬ̽͑҉̶̪̜͙̣̯̮̰̰̥ͅo̅̀ͩ͊̽̅͛̌ͧ̔͑ͮ̄͑̾͟͟͠͏͚͙̣̹̹̖͙̺̦̞̹̘̺u͛͂͐ͣ̐͏̧
15:30:05 <moon__> ͔̗̘͔͔̝̼̘ť̂̐͗̋҉̸̧͇̻͓̝̙̣̫̗͇̩̝̠̲̀͘ͅͅ ͚͚͙̖̦̟̭̞̉́̎̇̂̌͑ͣ̀́͢o̷̧̺̬̠̝͕͙̙̲̰̼͚͔̺̫̣̻̽ͤͬ͗̑ͪͫrͦ̇͛ͧ̓͋̽̐ͪͣͤ̓ͭͨͩ̓҉̷̢͎͕̣̪͕͔̣̮̜͈͈̫̤̤̰͜͜ͅd̵̡̼̠̪̠͌͊̑̏ͬͥ͑ͬ̿ͨ̉̀ͮ̀̀̚̕ę͍͍̦̬̼͊̆̃̍͘͟͟͜r͕̲̖̫͕̪̫̪̗͖̼͕̠͑̈́ͥͪ̆ͦ͂̿̋͛̿͆͋̅̅̉̕͘͠.͆ͩ̎ͭ͂̎̊ͫ́̔̒̎͂
15:30:06 <moon__> ͨͭ̿̐ͩ̃̇ͫͨ̃̈́͆͆͛̉ͬ̆҉҉̨̞̲͕̮͖̗͙͟͡T̸̛͚̘͎̱̠͓̼͍̠̠͚̅̍̇͂̄̆̄͊̅̒̋̍͟͝h̷̛̛̫̼̗͙̉ͧͥ̉ͪ̋̿ͮ̃̎ͪͭ̈̀ȅ̸̯͚̣̦̲̻͕̳̯̼̣̋ͯ̾͂̓ͯ͌ͦ̃ͯ͌ͩ̿̈́͢ ̷̛̳̫͙̔̽̾̂̊̚̕͜N͌̔̊̀͐͌̏ͦͪ͂̐ͭ̏̂́̿̄҉͇̙͖͙̙̪̕ę̶̶̥̰͖̲̗̱̩͑͂̐̇̈́́ͮͪ͑̔͛̕͟ẑ̧̦͖̥̜̹̻̞̤̩̄̓̋̉̄̑ͤͫ͋̄ͯͪͬ̐͂̈͆
15:30:06 <moon__> p̷̵̧̪͍̳͎̜̝͔͎̼̔̔̒ͤ̋͌ͨ̌ͨ͊͘ͅe̖̭̭͚̣͎̟̮̙ͦ̾̎̏͛͆ͯͧ̅̿̓ͥͬͮ͐̀̄̅ͪ͠r̨̢̔ͫ̀ͮ̍̋ͦ̉ͦ̚͏̗̲̯̰́ͅd̸̷̖̟͍͍̯̯͇̻̟̠̘̗̍ͪ̄͐̈́ͤ̃̉́̕͠ï̡̪̙͈̹̪̞͇̺͖͚̟̬̟̗̟̻͓̱̏ͮ̾̃̊͛ͬ̈́ͯ̀ͭ͛̃ͮ̾̀ͤ͢͡aͪ͑͒̈ͯ̅̇̈́͒̀ͭ̇ͮ͝҉̴̡̩͔̙͕͍͇̟̟͎̙̘̳̙̦͉͍͇̞͘ǹ̡̖̠̦͖̠̞̦̣͍̦̯̮̳̭̮ͪ̃ͯͯ̓̂ͣ͊̿̔̐
15:30:14 <HackEgo> 2 graphemes \ 3 codepoints \ 4 Java characters \ 8 UTF-8 bytes
15:30:24 <xfix> `len T͆̈́ͮ̌҉͔̯̞͚̲̗͈̼̕͝ỏ̫̟͖̱̪͔̻̥͕̙͈ͬ͌̀̀̚̕͢ ̒ͧͮͬͥ͂ͣ͑ͬ͗̂̎̓҉̸̢̦̯̲̳͞ͅi͙͚͎͙͖͐̉̐͆ͯ͢͡͠n̷͔͖̰͖̰̝̹̪̗̖͔̺̤͖̽̈̍̆͗̑̽͑͆̒̽͊͊̅ͥ̔̚͠v̡͙͇̻͍̼̩̮͎͈̝̘̬̻̭̖̈́͗ͫ̄ͭ̓͌͌ͯ̏ͫͮ͐̑̀͠o̧ͪ̏ͤ̀̈̔̐̿ͯ͂ͨ́͞҉͙̰̲͚̥̭̗͍̘̭͔̯k̶͆͆ͬͫ̃ͤͦ͗̓ͧ͡͏͍̫̞̼͍̠͇̙͖̺̝̦̼̘͜͞ͅë́̒
15:30:25 <HackEgo> 9 graphemes \ 203 codepoints \ 397 UTF-8 bytes
15:31:48 <gamemanj> moon__: -... -- . .- -.. .-.. .-.. -.. .- . -- -...
15:31:59 <moon__> Thts obviously morse code
15:32:03 <moon__> `len T̸̛͚̘͎̱̠͓̼͍̠̠͚̅̍̇͂̄̆̄͊̅̒̋̍͟͝h̷̛̛̫̼̗͙̉ͧͥ̉ͪ̋̿ͮ̃̎ͪͭ̈̀ȅ̸̯͚̣̦̲̻͕̳̯̼̣̋ͯ̾͂̓ͯ͌ͦ̃ͯ͌ͩ̿̈́͢ ̷̛̳̫͙̔̽̾̂̊̚̕͜N͌̔̊̀͐͌̏ͦͪ͂̐ͭ̏̂́̿̄҉͇̙͖͙̙̪̕ę̶̶̥̰͖̲̗̱̩͑͂̐̇̈́́ͮͪ͑̔͛̕͟ẑ̧̦͖̥̜̹̻̞̤̩̄̓̋̉̄̑ͤͫ͋̄ͯͪͬ̐͂̈͆p̷̵̧̪͍̳͎̜̝͔͎̼̔̔̒ͤ̋͌ͨ̌ͨ͊͘ͅeͦ̾̎̏
15:32:03 <moon__> ̖̭̭͚̣͎̟̮̙͛͆ͯͧ̅̿̓ͥͬͮ͐̀̄̅ͪ͠r̨̢̔ͫ̀ͮ̍̋ͦ̉ͦ̚͏̗̲̯̰́ͅd̸̷̖̟͍͍̯̯͇̻̟̠̘̗̍ͪ̄͐̈́ͤ̃̉́̕͠ï̡̪̙͈̹̪̞͇̺͖͚̟̬̟̗̟̻͓̱̏ͮ̾̃̊͛ͬ̈́ͯ̀ͭ͛̃ͮ̾̀ͤ͢͡aͪ͑͒̈ͯ̅̇̈́͒̀ͭ̇ͮ͝҉̴̡̩͔̙͕͍͇̟̟͎̙̘̳̙̦͉͍͇̞͘ǹ̡̖̠̦͖̠̞̦̣͍̦̯̮̳̭̮ͪ̃ͯͯ̓̂ͣ͊̿̔̐ ̴̨͚̘̬̫̮̳̣̦̰̻͇̈͐̄̈́̒ͪ̍͊̑̑̃
15:32:03 <moon__> ͓̼̯͓̘ḩ̸̝͖͉̰̳̺̪͖͕̩̲͇ͮ͂ͩͤͭ̓̃ͥ̀͘͝ȋ̸̧̫̙̠͔͍͇̣̜̠̩͓̟̬̜̰̲̫̲͕̄ͨ̇̓͗͂ͪ̂͌ͧ͛̚v̶̸̧̹͙̼͙̽ͮ̐ͯ͗ͮ͘͜ȩ̣̩̫̜͈͙̦͕̙̭͆͊͊̃̏͑̑́̀-̞̹͖̰̘̱̦͊ͥ̏ͭ̎͂̅̂̉͟͞m̑̐̋͊͛ͩ̍̈́̕҉̥̰̟̺̝̭̤̥i̧̎̂͗͛̾ͫ͐ͧ̓ͥ̋̊̓͘҉̡̛̩̩̣͚̯̪̙͓n̬̭̥̭̖̜͍̟͍͕͎̪̟̽̅̀͑̉̓͊̿̉͂͊̓̀ͦ͞͞d͗̂̋ͫ̄̒̎̽ͩ͋̔͊̆̔̃ͭ
15:32:03 <moon__> ̵̧͒̔͏̠̯̜͔͕͇̗͚͎̫̘͖͕̺̮͔̕͢ ̶̢̝̲̪̞̩̙̯̗̣͎̮̝̗͈̰̒ͨ͒̈́ͥͭ̎͑͗́ͣͪͪ̎͂͋̕͞o̢̮̮̮̜̺̣̳̞̦̙̲̜̰̫ͫ̄̆̈̒́́̕fͥ̅͛͗̿́͏̷̜̮̦̭̭̘̦̳̭͞ ̧̼̟̣̪̯̳̻̠̱̓̃͐͊͐̏c̬̲̟̹̠͇̭̣̩͖͇̥͈̅̐̑̉͋̆͊̄͗̒͌͜͠h̸̨̡̗̠̮̦̞̭̗̣̹̯͉͍̳̔ͫ͛̋̈ͤ̈͟͡a̷̢͕̥̮͉̲͙̭̜̟͎͉ͥͭ͌́̀̄ͫ̎͂ͩ͆ͪo̵̵̸̴̘̠̮̎ͣ̈́̓ͤͧ̾ͥ͆̈́͋̂ͩͪ̀̈́ͪ
15:32:03 <moon__> ͔̭̞s̯̻̻̥͓̘͖̩̦̞̭͈͇͎̝͍͖ͥͦ͐̈́̔͂ͤͧͨ̎͢ͅͅ.̃ͭ̓ͫ̒̃̊ͭ̓̉̌҉̵̩͕̥͍̘̥͕̀ ̶̴͍͕͔ͤ̔ͯ̽͌̎̔ͭ͌̾̏͛̽̿͋̌͆Z̡̡̛̗̙̳̭̗̬̘̫̬̺̺̺̜͎͎͈̻͚̱ͭ̊̂̊ͥ̽̃̽ͩ̂̀͜͠a̷̛͚͓̗̙̟̰̠̰͔̦̰̰͚͂͊ͥͫ̎ͮͧ̔̾̾̑̑ͯ́l̷̡̛̛͔̩̲̦͉͔̜͉̼͍̺̳̩̭̘̲̱͓̐ͦͤ̊͊ͪ̐ͫ̌͜g̀̓̃ͫͭͩͦ̓҉̴̷̝̤̳̤̞̬͈̜͎oͤ̑ͮ
15:32:04 <moon__> ͕͚̙͎͍̥̭͗̂̍͠.̻͈̝̠͚̺̬̰͉̺̣̠͓̬̗̬̉ͦͤͯͧ͛͐̇ͪͤͭ̏̔̀̚͟͡
15:32:06 <HackEgo> 9 graphemes \ 202 codepoints \ 395 UTF-8 bytes
15:33:19 <gamemanj> moon__: But, in any case... can you handle this?
15:33:36 <gamemanj> (No, I don't know what it will be on your screen. That's part of the fun!)
15:33:40 <moon__> the current motd states 'Contains only free ranging moons' Yay
15:34:26 <moon__> `len T͆̈́ͮ̌҉͔̯̞͚̲̗͈̼̕͝ỏ̫̟͖̱̪͔̻̥͕̙͈ͬ͌̀̀̚̕͢ ̒ͧͮͬͥ͂ͣ͑ͬ͗̂̎̓҉̸̢̦̯̲̳͞ͅi͙͚͎͙͖͐̉̐͆ͯ͢͡͠n̷͔͖̰͖̰̝̹̪̗̖͔̺̤͖̽̈̍̆͗̑̽͑͆̒̽͊͊̅ͥ̔̚͠v̡͙͇̻͍̼̩̮͎͈̝̘̬̻̭̖̈́͗ͫ̄ͭ̓͌͌ͯ̏ͫͮ͐̑̀͠o̧ͪ̏ͤ̀̈̔̐̿ͯ͂ͨ́͞҉͙̰̲͚̥̭̗͍̘̭͔̯k̶͆͆ͬͫ̃ͤͦ͗̓ͧ͡͏͍̫̞̼͍̠͇̙͖̺̝̦̼̘͜͞ͅ
15:34:26 <moon__> ë̷͔̥̟͈̳̝̫̜̺̹́̒͒ͦ͒̊̑ͨ̒͋̈́̄́͘͜͡ ̢̛̬̻̱̹̻̯̪̊̔ͥ̑̽͂̀͠͠t̙̩̤͉̘̻͙̗̟͎͈̯͙͐̎͗ͩ̋̓ͪ̉͂̓ͯ̂͢h̃̊ͥ̄̄̅̾ͥ̏ͭ҉̭̣̩̮̝̦́̕͞e̡̺̦̠̦̩̖̅͐͒̾̎̐͌ͥͮ̒͋ͩ͑͛͒̔̆́̚̚͟͟ ̷̸̜̠̩̜̥̭̟̍͒̏̍ͤ͆͑ͥ͟͞͞ȟ̡̩̺̩͔̦̖̀̂̊ͯ̊̈ị͚̣̪̲̥̖͈̼̪̗̓̈̅̎̒̈́̑̐͐͗͐͠v̛̰̭̟̪̹̌ͪ̂̈́̽ͥͤ̔ͮ͠͞ͅ
15:34:26 <moon__> è̴̴̷̺͎̺̖͇̻̻͇͙̳̪͓̬͇͇̹̮̯̮ͯ̈́ͩͥ́̚-̷̷͖̖̮͈̞̪͚͔͍̯̠̼̠̮͙̾̔̍͌ͧ͡m̨̙̖̩̺̭̲̥̩͔̱̞̣̠̉̎ͤ͌̋͌̄ͬ͐ͪ͋͊ͦ̔͋̚͢͠͡į͒̇̑͑̊͊ͣͬ͐ͭ͋͏̧̘̰̼̯̮̲͖͟n̴̪͚̞̣̙̫̜̖̖̪̭̋ͧͫ͌̐̃̾̄̍ͨ͆ͧ̂̋̊ͥͬ͛͌͝͠d̵̴̸͍̖̗͈̗̯͈͎͈͔͕̲̐̒̈ͬ̽̀̋̀͞ ͗͊̒ͨ̍̍̈́̂̉҉̸̞͎͚̞͎̫̱̹͇̯̭͞r͒͌͛͌͑͠҉̣
15:34:26 <moon__> ͚͎͙͚̭e̠͕̳͈̱̬̽̍ͩ̑ͩ͆̃̀̕͟p̨͉̲̖͇̊ͨ̽ͩ̐͑ͯͦ̀͠͡r̴̷͔̱̹̪̺͓̲̠̙̼̱͇ͣ̒̉̔͐͂ͯ̐ͧͫ͌ͯ͋̌͟͝e̴̴̻̤͇͍͕͖̳̮͎̣̟ͬͭͨ̒͗ͮ̂͛̈̋ͦ̋̎̀́s͋͐ͤ̐̈́̿ͣ̒̐̿̉ͥ͏͖̤͖͔̫͙͔̻͈̖͙͕̜̱̜͟ͅẹ̸̛̥̦̟̳̟̗̺͖̳̥͚̜̟̮̳̱̥ͦͪ̄ͭ̈͑̐͂̏̀́n͒͗ͫ̂ͣͮ̈́͌̃ͭ̈̉ͯ͛̄ͨ̔̊ͮ́҉̲̙̹͎̗͔̣̙̦̭̪̘̖t̔ͩ͂̈ͮ̚
15:34:26 <moon__> ͒͐̓ͦͤ̐̾͐̚͢҉̶̺͇̬̹̻͇̗͖͎̗̯͓͙̹̻̠͉͢ͅi͍̲̝͕̠̹͈͈̪̠̖̮̜ͨ̾ͧ̐̐͛ͣ͂̈͒ͫ̚̕͟͞ṇ̢̢̫͖̼̦͓̤̬̱̱͂ͫ̑̀́ͣ̎̅̊ͫ̏͆̃̇̈́͛ͧ̀ģ͙͎̯̲̟̥̯̞̝̙̫̹̤̭͖̬̙̍ͨ̇̌̀͐̾̿ͫ ̷͔̻̹͉̗͉̀̒̄͑̽̾͌̾̑͊́̍̃̃ͪ́́ͅċ̨̾ͫ̃̽ͬ̊̌ͤ̂̆̂͗͌ͭ̀͊̚͘͏͕̫̮̭̱̙͇͙̩̦̙͕̠ḩ̢͐͑ͭ̄̊̔͑́ͣ͗̒ͫ͛̒ͪͯ́̚
15:34:27 <moon__> ͔͎͔̗̫̮͓̱̺̯̭̻a̢̡̤̖͎͍̞̪͋͒̏́ͥ̎̽ͬ͘̕o̵͙̦̺͙̮̗͚̪̟̪̻̥̬ͯͭ́̌̇ͩ͐̓ͯ̈̚͞s̢̛̬̪̩̜̮̬̬̺̺̼͕̬̯̠̮̫̾̔ͤ̓̓̀ͤ͒̒̓͐̿́͜͝.̢̠̭̖͕̪͍̬͔̥̯͉̬̫̞̝̩̭̪̉͗ͤ͂̽ͨͯ̑̐ͮ͌ͦ̚͡
15:34:27 <moon__> <moon__> ̸̛̩͍͚͉͖̰̘͙̮̻͉̺̗̯̙̰̈́͊͋̓̐̚͘̕ͅI̓ͣ͑̅ͤ́̓ͮ̑҉̠̠͎̜̟̘̩͎̲̩͜ň̦͙̬͓̗̘̗̗̭͉̠̪ͣ̉̆̓ͯ̃͐̎̒̆͗̇̓̅̊̂͋̕͘̕͠v̢̹̹͓̼̱͔͚̭͓̮̲͍̖̬̣̄͊͒́̅͐̓ͮ͋ͥͮ̇̃͋ͨ́ͅǫ̣̺̮̣̹͙̮̣̞͈͈̉̍ͧ̒̆͗̓ͨ͛͋̐̆͛͜kͭͥͬ̎ͤ̀́͊̀̇̆̏͊҉̧̝̩̬̹̯̦̻͎̣̗͈͉̜͜͠ͅi̡̋̉̐̃́͑͆̔́ͬͦ͆҉̵҉̻̲̭̦̰̼̜͡
15:34:27 <HackEgo> 8 graphemes \ 199 codepoints \ 390 UTF-8 bytes
15:34:28 <moon__> ͓̰͈͙̺̝̳͓n͕̱̯̫͙͓̫͇̪͋͊͗̈́̄ͥ͗͛͒̿͑ͮ͋͟g̵͓͙̣̥̪̞͙͖͕̝̼̱̅͛ͧ̆ͩ̑̃̓͐̂͒̆̑ͭ̽͛̀̀͜ ̢̡̞̳̥̻̺̹͙̰̘̖͉̫͈̳̣͚̙͈̝̃ͯ̍̔̕͜t̨̪̖̳̖͚̱̗̘̦̫̳̏̋̏ͨͨh̠̘̲̙͕̘̩̮̞̿̃ͬͣ̈̓̈̈́̄͘͡ȩ̴͚͇̱̯͍̒ͯͣ̑̆̇̍͛͑̌͆̚͜͞ ͈̪̥͕̦͈͉̦͉͙̬̟̺̓͊ͭ̅̀̈́̌̽͂̄̔̄͐̈ͦ̀͠͡ͅf̵̑̉͆̓͋ͬ͐̉͆҉̷̸̩͎̤̜̠̺̘̱͝
15:34:28 <moon__> ͚͕̰̰͖̪͙ę̶̶̖̜͉̬̘̬̞̱͓̳̘͖̗̬̣̦̀̈͂ͭ͌̊̔̽e̶͂ͮ̅͛͗ͭ̽͗̇́̃̽̑̃̚͏̱͍͈̥̀l̛̛͙͓̘̗̲͍̺̹̣̝͊ͦ͗̈̂̌ͭͦͥ̓̂̀̌̉̈́̆̔́͂͜͜i̵̵̧͖̞̤̱̺̜̭ͣ̅̐̂̓̂̐ͣ̾̚͟n̶ͪ̍ͭͪ͋ͧ͂͋̽̅͆ͦ͗͌͏̻͚̳͖͍̻̻͉̫͎g̡̫̜̫̮̳̦͕͔͉͎ͪ̿̈͌ͭ̅̃ͫ͒̊̃ͦ̊ͪ̆̂͠ͅ ̷̜̙̤̼͂̆̿̄̇̃̾̽̑̑̉̾͆̍͊͗͘ô̴̠̅̈́ͩ̾͒̃ͤͮ̈ͨ̓
15:34:29 <moon__> ͕̤̘̖̣̬̣̖̦̞̯̣͍̜̠̼f̷̧̣̩ͨ̌ͥͧͯ͒́̋͗͛̽̍̉ͤ͟͠͞ͅ ̨̨̊̓ͮ͌̈ͥ́̐̀̒͐ͮͪ͊̽̏̀ͬ̍͏̵̡̠̫̲͚͚̱͕̺̟̦͓̳c̷̗̻̱̦̩ͨ̽ͯ͌̑̽̅̊̌̅̕͠͡h̵̨͇͍͈̻̯͚̙̗̜͑ͭ̈́ͧ̋ͭͬ̉ͫ͆ͭ̚͢͝å͛͒ͬͨ̉̀͒͌ͣ͑̈́͘͏̘͈̥̟̦̝ơ̢̦̬̤̪̙̘̪̥̤͔̞͔̩̹̘͎͈͂ͭͩͦ̅̉ͫ̂ͧ͗ͭ̎͋̌ͬ͟͡͠s̴̴̛ͬ͗̋̓ͭͦ̿̅ͦ̏̀ͫ̊̒ͯ͊͑̈ͪ́
15:34:29 <moon__> ͖̙̙̠͈͞.̛ͩ̉ͧ͑͊̒̕͠҉̺̪̦̘̩
15:34:30 <moon__> <moon__> ̧̨̨̙̟̞̯͔͓̤̞͙̗̹̞̱̝̭̗̽̾́ͯ̑ͥͩͭͦ̃̀͢W̵̵̢̼͉͍̝̽̂̾̅̈́̈̚͘ȋͩͪ̆͋ͣ̊ͤ̒̋̋̚͜͢͏̝̹͕͍̞͕̙͕͇̦͔̠̦ṯ̡̘͖̮̖̬͎̗ͦͧͮ̽͗͂ͩ̉̈̓ͭ̚͘͢ḥ̷̣̲̬̖̟̤̣͙̟͖̟̙̝̝̭̝̭̣̈̃̈͌͒͋̋ͦͫ͆̏̍́́͘ ̽ͣ͌ͦ̉͊ͣ̅͆ͬ̽͑҉̶̪̜͙̣̯̮̰̰̥ͅo̅̀ͩ͊̽̅͛̌ͧ̔͑ͮ̄͑̾͟͟͠͏͚͙̣̹̹̖͙̺̦̞̹̘̺u͛͂
15:34:30 <moon__> ͐ͣ̐͏̧͔̗̘͔͔̝̼̘ť̂̐͗̋҉̸̧͇̻͓̝̙̣̫̗͇̩̝̠̲̀͘ͅͅ ͚͚͙̖̦̟̭̞̉́̎̇̂̌͑ͣ̀́͢o̷̧̺̬̠̝͕͙̙̲̰̼͚͔̺̫̣̻̽ͤͬ͗̑ͪͫrͦ̇͛ͧ̓͋̽̐ͪͣͤ̓ͭͨͩ̓҉̷̢͎͕̣̪͕͔̣̮̜͈͈̫̤̤̰͜͜ͅd̵̡̼̠̪̠͌͊̑̏ͬͥ͑ͬ̿ͨ̉̀ͮ̀̀̚̕ę͍͍̦̬̼͊̆̃̍͘͟͟͜r͕̲̖̫͕̪̫̪̗͖̼͕̠͑̈́ͥͪ̆ͦ͂̿̋͛̿͆͋̅̅̉̕͘͠.͆ͩ̎ͭ͂̎̊ͫ́̔̒̎͂
15:34:41 <gamemanj> moon... the smile is everywhere ﺕ
15:35:12 <oerjan> moon__: i'm very tempted to quiet you
15:35:15 <moon__> nice unicode smiles using the smae trick i did for the zalgo text
15:35:41 <HackEgo> 1 codepoint \ 3 UTF-8 bytes
15:36:30 <gamemanj> "And moon__ was happy in his discovery of the Arabic Presentation Forms-B block, and did not continue spamming."
15:36:52 <HackEgo> 2 codepoints \ 4 Java characters \ 8 UTF-8 bytes
15:37:02 <xfix> Hm, it doesn't recognize a grapheme here...
15:37:08 <HackEgo> \ This is perl 5, version 14, subversion 2 (v5.14.2) built for x86_64-linux-gnu-thread-multi \ (with 88 registered patches, see perl -V for more detail) \ \ Copyright 1987-2011, Larry Wall \ \ Perl may be copied only under the terms of either the Artistic License or the \ GNU General Public License, which may be found in the Perl 5 source kit
15:37:45 <xfix> Old Unicode database, oh well.
15:37:57 <HackEgo> U+1F1FA REGIONAL INDICATOR SYMBOL LETTER U \ UTF-8: f0 9f 87 ba UTF-16BE: d83cddfa Decimal: 🇺 \ 🇺 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+1F1F8 REGIONAL INDICATOR SYMBOL LETTER S \ UTF-8: f0 9f 87 b8 UTF-16BE: d83cddf8 Decimal: 🇸 \ 🇸 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
15:38:06 <gamemanj> hmm. So would it technically be a legal problem if I downloaded perl from hackego, and who would it be a legal problem for?
15:38:15 <gamemanj> Me for downloading it... or HackEgo for not distributing source?
15:38:44 <gamemanj> (or is the source just somewhere I don't know about - perfectly possible)
15:38:51 <xfix> GPL doesn't require the source code to be distributed, considering you don't get a binary.
15:39:15 <gamemanj> xfix: If I downloaded HackEgo's perl binary,
15:39:34 <gamemanj> then I would have a binary, wouldn't I?
15:39:58 <zzo38> I also wrote a program "utftovlq" (I think an old version may be installed on HackEgo) that can deal with UTF-8 and UTF-16 as well as other stuff too.
15:40:23 <xfix> That depends on whether "downloading a binary from HackEgo" counts as conveying, but I don't want to check that, as I'm not a lawyer.
15:41:31 <zzo38> By a series of pipes with utftovlq and wc you can do the same counting you did except for Unicode graphemes
15:42:35 <oerjan> gamemanj: HackEgo's perl is not in a spot that you can normally download. you could get around it of course, but it's not intended to be.
15:43:19 <oerjan> although i suspect with all the cruft that's on it, HackEgo may already have plenty of copyright problems.
15:44:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later, anyway).
15:46:58 <moon__> ̴̮̘͔̰͙̽ͪ̔̓̃̊ͣ͛̽̈̿͒ͭ̎̌ͩ͝
15:46:58 <moon__> ̶̴̬͓̫̣͎̬͈̮̖͈̟͕͔͇̔ͧ͑ͣ̑ͩͧ͛̐ͮ̿̇̎̐̽ͨ̄͑ͅͅ
15:46:58 <moon__> ̸̈ͩͫͪͧ͂̈̎ͨͧ̓͑̑͘͢͡҉̜͇̙͔̣̼̗̯͍͉̯͓͉̖͉
15:46:58 <moon__> ̝̼̱͙̮͍͖̙̗̮̘͇̦̤̹̳͍̮͓̽ͬͦ́̅̽̈̈́͐̓ͧ̋̈́̅ͭ̄̎͘͘͢͡
15:46:59 <moon__> ̵̢͇̰̠̬̮̲̻̮͈͔͋́̏ͦͩͩ̅ͥ͢͟ͅ
15:46:59 <moon__> ̴̢̮͖͔̯̻͙̼͖̪̰̲̟̦̘̩͙̅ͧͮ̃̍̆̅̊̄̅ͣ̄̾͛͌
15:47:00 <moon__> ̴̨̛͉̬̗̱̜͉͔̤̹̭͇̪͓̓ͯ̓̂̑ͭͧ̇̽̓ͭ͜
15:47:00 <moon__> ̸̨̰͕̜̪̪̖͔̺̮̲͓̪̘̳̻̯͎͛͗̾͌ͤ̑́ͭͣͦ̃̔ͨ̂ͭͮ̓̚̚͜
15:47:01 <moon__> ̮̺̺̞̜̤̺̻̼̩̫̬̱̋͊̽̆̊̈́̑̀́
15:47:02 <moon__> ̵̸̵̫̲̝̦͍͈̙͕̩̺̱̬̣͆ͫ̿ͯͤ͒̾͑ͨ̕͢ͅͅ
15:47:02 <moon__> ̤̤̲̭̭͚͚̥͓̗̰̤̮̆̀̐ͫ̾̉̋ͪͭ͛̄́͜͝ͅ
15:47:03 <moon__> ̂̓͐ͣ̓̏̄͆ͦ͞͏̘̠̪͓̙͕̝̫̬̮̪̹̫͠
15:47:17 <moon__> *Playing around with unicode chars*
15:50:18 <xfix> `fetch http://www.cpan.org/src/5.0/perl-5.22.2.tar.gz
15:50:43 <xfix> Okay, that's somewhat of a bad idea. Whatever.
15:51:24 <xfix> Yeah, I realized that pretty sure configure script would be stopped in middle.
15:51:26 <HackEgo> 2016-05-14 14:51:07 URL:http://www.cpan.org/src/5.0/perl-5.22.2.tar.gz [15939581/15939581] -> "perl-5.22.2.tar.gz" [1]
15:51:31 <gamemanj> if anyone wants me, I'll be busy hiding in a bunker
15:51:54 <xfix> `run tar xf perl-5.22.tar.gz # Ah, whatever, I'm doing it anyway
15:51:56 <HackEgo> tar: perl-5.22.tar.gz: Cannot open: No such file or directory \ tar: Error is not recoverable: exiting now
15:52:06 <xfix> `run tar xf perl-5.22.2.tar.gz # Ah, whatever, I'm doing it anyway
15:53:30 <xfix> `len is it locked?
15:53:44 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: rebooting).
15:55:02 <xfix> `run sleep 40 & disown
15:55:09 -!- bender has quit (Quit: Leaving).
15:55:11 <xfix> `run echo Does disown prevent lock?
15:55:33 <HackEgo> USER PID %CPU %MEM VSZ RSS TTY STAT START TIME COMMAND \ 0 1 0.5 0.1 1012 272 ? S 14:55 0:00 /init \ 0 2 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S 14:55 0:00 [kthreadd] \ 0 3 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S 14:55 0:00 [ksoftirqd/0] \ 0 4 0.0 0.0 0 0 ?
15:55:37 <xfix> `run ps aux | grep sleep
15:55:39 <HackEgo> 5000 288 0.0 0.2 4180 620 ? S 14:55 0:00 sh -c 'env' 'PATH=/hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin' 'HACKENV=/hackenv' 'http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128' 'LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8' '/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits' 'bash' '-c' 'ps aux | grep sleep' | cat \ 5000 290 0.0 0.6 19136 1584 ?
15:55:45 -!- FreeFull has joined.
15:55:57 <xfix> `run ps aux | grep sleep | wc -l
15:56:02 <xfix> `run sleep 400 & disown
15:56:04 <xfix> `run ps aux | grep sleep | wc -l
15:56:52 <gamemanj> so sleep 1 isn't an insta-kill
15:57:12 -!- tromp_ has joined.
15:57:16 <gamemanj> `run sleep 5 ; echo This will occur at 15:57:20
15:57:24 <HackEgo> This will occur at 15:57:20
15:57:41 <xfix> `run sleep 10 ; echo Wait for it...
15:57:41 <xfix> `run sleep 10 ; echo Wait for it...
15:57:42 <xfix> `run sleep 10 ; echo Wait for it...
15:58:11 <moon__> you downloaded a new version of perl, only to not unpack and install it?
15:58:33 <gamemanj> moon__: A crime beyond belief, I'm sure...
15:58:33 <xfix> It's already unpacked, but I do wonder how I prevent ./configure from locking the bot.
15:58:55 <moon__> what happens if the bot locks?
15:59:09 <xfix> Uhm, why I don't get Wait for it response...
15:59:14 <xfix> `run sleep 4 ; echo Wait for it...
15:59:14 <xfix> `run sleep 4 ; echo Wait for it...
15:59:38 <gamemanj> if the bot locks:then whoever owns the bot will probably kill xfix
16:00:33 <moon__> but gregor has not been on in ages
16:01:07 <gamemanj> ...ok, in which case I retract my previous estimation of mortality.
16:02:28 <int-e> the hunter returns with food and an empty quiver... err wallet.
16:02:34 <gamemanj> I think that sleep-300 locked up HE
16:03:24 <xfix> `cd perl-5.22.2; ./Configure -d -Dprefix=/hackenv > /hackenv/logs
16:03:26 <HackEgo> invalid command ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
16:03:29 <xfix> `run cd perl-5.22.2; ./Configure -d -Dprefix=/hackenv > /hackenv/logs
16:04:46 <HackEgo> !\.´ \ advice \ bin \ canary \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ logs \ misle \ paste \ perl-5.22.2 \ perl-5.22.2.tar.gz \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ theorems \ tmflry \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
16:05:44 <xfix> Hm, so here are logs... web interface is so slow...
16:06:00 <xfix> I'm clearly abusing Mercurial.
16:06:06 <moon__> Hackego lacks a web interface
16:06:17 <moon__> fetch and paste are the only ones
16:06:28 <xfix> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
16:06:44 <moon__> im talking about things like wget
16:06:59 <HackEgo> \ Beginning of configuration questions for perl5. \ \ Checking echo to see how to suppress newlines... \ ...using \c \ The star should be here-->* \ \ First let's make sure your kit is complete. Checking...
16:07:39 <moon__> hackego only lets programs run for a certain amount of time
16:08:12 -!- lambda-11235 has joined.
16:08:14 <gamemanj> it stops at "First let's make sure your kit is complete. Checking..."
16:08:19 <xfix> `run cd perl-5.22.2; nohup ./Configure -d -Dprefix=/hackenv > /hackenv/logs &
16:08:21 <gamemanj> after that there's nothing in the file
16:08:47 <HackEgo> nohup: missing operand \ Try `nohup --help' for more information.
16:08:48 <HackEgo> !\.´ \ advice \ bin \ canary \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ logs \ misle \ paste \ perl-5.22.2 \ perl-5.22.2.tar.gz \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ theorems \ tmflry \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
16:09:03 <xfix> `ls perl-5.22.2
16:09:04 <HackEgo> Usage: nohup COMMAND [ARG]... \ or: nohup OPTION \ Run COMMAND, ignoring hangup signals. \ \ --help display this help and exit \ --version output version information and exit \ \ If standard input is a terminal, redirect it from /dev/null. \ If standard output is a terminal, append output to `nohup.out' if possible, \ `$HOME/n
16:09:05 <HackEgo> Artistic \ asan_ignore \ AUTHORS \ autodoc.pl \ av.c \ av.h \ caretx.c \ cflags.SH \ Changes \ charclass_invlists.h \ config_h.SH \ configpm \ Configure \ configure.com \ configure.gnu \ cop.h \ Copying \ cpan \ Cross \ cv.h \ cygwin \ deb.c \ dist \ djgpp \ doio.c \ doop.c \ dosish.h \ dquote_static.c \ dump.c \ ebcdic_tables.h \ embed.fnc \ embed
16:09:13 <xfix> `run ls perl-5.22.2/noh*
16:09:15 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access perl-5.22.2/noh*: No such file or directory
16:09:45 <xfix> Hm, clearly I need to compile for it.
16:10:07 <xfix> Cross-compiling is annoying...
16:10:12 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
16:10:33 <moon__> umlbox is a powerful sandboxer
16:11:45 <int-e> `/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6
16:11:47 <HackEgo> GNU C Library (Debian EGLIBC 2.13-38) stable release version 2.13, by Roland McGrath et al. \ Copyright (C) 2011 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. \ There is NO warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A \ PARTICULAR PURPOSE. \ Compiled by GNU CC version 4.4.7. \ Compiled on
16:12:34 <xfix> I figured it was Debian, I was more curious about an architecture (x86_32 vs x86_64... or perhaps ARM, hehe) :)
16:12:57 <moon__> hackego runs debian underneath umlbox
16:13:01 <int-e> I wanted the glibc version
16:14:12 <gamemanj> why on earth would libc be executable...?
16:14:45 <int-e> a) to confuse people
16:15:06 <int-e> b) to give an easy way to find out its version (useful) and license (not so much)
16:15:12 * gamemanj tries executing a few other libraries as programs and just gets segmentation faults
16:15:38 <xfix> There is no reason for it to not be an executable.
16:15:39 <int-e> sorry, it's a special feature
16:15:40 <xfix> So they did it.
16:16:24 <int-e> it's better than bundling some sort of glibc-info executable.
16:16:37 <xfix> (other than making the program huge, but I doubt GNU were concerned about that, considering how many features glibc has)
16:17:24 <xfix> Well, you need to store a license string.
16:17:36 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:17:44 <int-e> well, how much of the 1.7 MB file... don't answer that.
16:18:17 <gamemanj> well, if it's GPLV3, then expect it to take up 85.3% of the file
16:28:50 -!- moon_ has quit (Quit: Page closed).
16:29:16 -!- Taneb has changed nick to eurovisionsongco.
16:29:20 -!- eurovisionsongco has changed nick to Taneb.
16:36:20 <HackEgo> perl-5.22.2.tar.gz \ \ perl-5.22.2: \ Artistic \ asan_ignore \ AUTHORS \ autodoc.pl \ av.c \ av.h \ caretx.c \ cflags.SH \ Changes \ charclass_invlists.h \ config_h.SH \ configpm \ Configure \ configure.com \ configure.gnu \ cop.h \ Copying \ cpan \ Cross \ cv.h \ cygwin \ deb.c \ dist \ djgpp \ doio.c \ doop.c \ dosish.h \ dquote_static.c \ dump.
16:36:30 <xfix> `run echo perl*
16:36:31 <HackEgo> perl-5.22.2 perl-5.22.2.tar.gz
16:36:33 <xfix> `run rm -r perl*
16:36:45 -!- tromp_ has joined.
16:36:52 <xfix> `run rm -r perl* # if at first you don't succeed...
16:37:05 <HackEgo> rm: remove write-protected regular file `perl-5.22.2/pp_pack.c'?
16:37:12 <xfix> `run rm -rf perl*
16:37:50 <xfix> `run rm -rf perl*
16:37:58 <xfix> `run echo perl*
16:41:33 <xfix> `run hg update f698aeafd7ca
16:41:34 <HackEgo> abort: could not lock working directory of /hackenv: Read-only file system
16:41:45 <xfix> `revert f698aeafd7ca
16:41:56 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
16:42:29 <gamemanj> ...ok, it said "Done.", so it might be fine
16:42:39 <xfix> I think I reverted too much...
16:42:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: len: not found
16:42:49 <xfix> `revert fd90e11cc6b9
16:42:51 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
16:43:37 <xfix> `run echo echo | tee shirt
16:44:53 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `shirt': No such file or directory
16:44:55 <xfix> It is, indeed.
16:45:25 <gamemanj> The real question is... is the reason it's confusing for me, the same as the reason for you?
16:45:42 <xfix> `run :(){ :|:& };:
16:46:11 <int-e> `` diff bin/\` bin/run
16:46:12 <HackEgo> 1,4c1 \ < #!/bin/bash \ < TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ < shopt -s extglob globstar \ < eval -- "$1" | rnooodl \ --- \ > echo run run run
16:46:37 <HackEgo> GNU bash, version 4.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) \ These shell commands are defined internally. Type `help' to see this list. \ Type `help name' to find out more about the function `name'. \ Use `info bash' to find out more about the shell in general. \ Use `man -k' or `info' to find out more about commands not in this list. \ \ A star (
16:46:44 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file
16:46:48 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$1" | rnoooooodl
16:47:06 <xfix> `` cat bin/run
16:47:25 <xfix> `` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` echo sorry
16:48:58 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ \ ! \ ? \ ?? \ ¿ \ ' \ @ \ * \ ؟ \ \ \ \ 1492 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 5quote \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addtodo \ aglist \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ append \ arienvenido \ as86 \ aseen \ asm \ autowelcome \ bardsworthlist \ before \ benvenuto \ bf \ bff \ bienvenido \ bienvenue \ bin \ b
16:49:07 <gamemanj> `run rabbit run rabbit run run run, don't let the farmer get his fun...
16:49:08 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
16:49:41 <gamemanj> `run rabbit run rabbit run run run, don't let the farmer get his fun... He'll get by, without his rabbit pie, so run rabbit run rabbit run run run...
16:49:42 <HackEgo> bash: rabbit: command not found
16:50:05 <HackEgo> Stop taking everything literally!
16:50:23 <int-e> `` run is a joke for people who don't know that `run is a builtin hackego command
16:50:24 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file
16:50:49 <HackEgo> invalid command ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
16:50:55 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: syntax error near unexpected token `newline' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: `run >.>'
16:51:03 <gamemanj> I have no idea what is happening
16:51:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: if: not found
16:51:33 <int-e> gamemanj: try typing "run >.>" into bash
16:51:52 <xfix> `mkx bin/if//bash -c "if $@"
16:52:04 <gamemanj> int-e: I suspect it will wipe my HDD.
16:52:11 <int-e> bash: syntax error near unexpected token `newline'
16:52:13 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
16:52:22 <gamemanj> Not that I knew that before hand, but asking me to put it into bash told me
16:52:23 <xfix> `if true; then echo Hi.; else Uh oh.; fi
16:52:28 <xfix> `if false; then echo Hi.; else Uh oh.; fi
16:52:29 <HackEgo> bash: Uh: command not found
16:52:35 <xfix> `if false; then echo Hi.; else echo Uh oh.; fi
16:54:19 <xfix> `hello-world-in-any-language
16:54:23 <xfix> `hello-world-in-any-language c
16:54:30 <xfix> `hello-world-in-any-language c++
16:54:31 <HackEgo> Your language does not exist
16:54:41 <gamemanj> `hello-world-in-any-language bytepusher
16:54:42 <HackEgo> Your language does not exist
16:54:42 <xfix> `hello-world-in-any-language english
16:54:43 <HackEgo> Your language does not exist
16:55:12 <xfix> `hello-world-in-any-language php
16:55:17 <xfix> `hello-world-in-any-language python
16:55:20 <gamemanj> I ought to get around to writing a BytePusher Brainfuck interpreter
16:55:26 <xfix> `hello-world-in-any-language shakespeare
16:55:36 <xfix> `hello-world-in-any-language java
16:55:47 <gamemanj> `hello-world-in-any-language brainfuck
16:56:00 <xfix> `hello-world-in-any-language chef
16:56:02 <HackEgo> Combine the computer and the water in the mixing bowl.
16:56:10 <gamemanj> it seems it is not designed to give serious answers
16:56:23 <gamemanj> `hello-world-in-any-language hello-world-in-any-language
16:56:24 <HackEgo> Your language does not exist
16:56:25 <int-e> `hello-world-in-any-language intercal
16:56:26 <HackEgo> Your language does not exist
16:56:38 <gamemanj> `hello-world-in-any-language Z-Machine
16:56:39 <HackEgo> Your language does not exist
16:56:39 <int-e> HackEgo: ITYM "PLEASE DONT GIVE UP"
16:56:42 <gamemanj> `hello-world-in-any-language infocom
16:56:43 <HackEgo> Your language does not exist
16:56:45 <gamemanj> `hello-world-in-any-language z
16:56:45 <HackEgo> Your language does not exist
16:56:59 <gamemanj> `hello-world-in-any-language shafuck
16:57:00 <HackEgo> Your language does not exist
16:57:15 <gamemanj> `hello-world-in-any-language glass
16:57:16 <HackEgo> Your language does not exist
16:57:19 <gamemanj> `hello-world-in-any-language malbolge
16:57:20 <HackEgo> Your language does not exist
16:57:23 <gamemanj> `hello-world-in-any-language deadfish
16:57:24 <HackEgo> Your language does not exist
16:57:24 <xfix> ``echo PLEASE DONT GIVE UP > hw/intercal
16:57:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `echo: not found
16:57:29 <xfix> `` echo PLEASE DONT GIVE UP > hw/intercal
16:57:40 <xfix> `hello-world-in-any-language intercal
16:58:50 <xfix> `hello-world-in-any-language perl
16:58:51 <HackEgo> Your language does not exist
17:00:11 <xfix> Wait a moment, gonna obfuscate some program.
17:03:41 <zzo38> PRINTI "Hello, World!" QUIT
17:04:19 <zzo38> (That is how you do in Z-machine codes; this example is too much oversimplify of course)
17:04:41 <xfix> `fetch https://gist.githubusercontent.com/xfix/2ece5662a831b7a42ce24df4ce9cf91a/raw/975e303bb7836b3ff3242219aac3fa3aae4833cb/gistfile1.txt
17:04:49 <HackEgo> 2016-05-14 16:04:46 URL:https://gist.githubusercontent.com/xfix/2ece5662a831b7a42ce24df4ce9cf91a/raw/975e303bb7836b3ff3242219aac3fa3aae4833cb/gistfile1.txt [212/212] -> "gistfile1.txt" [1]
17:04:56 <xfix> `mv gistfile1.txt hw/perl
17:04:57 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `gistfile1.txt hw/perl' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
17:05:04 <xfix> `` mv gistfile1.txt hw/perl
17:05:12 <xfix> `hello-world-in-any-language perl
17:05:13 <HackEgo> eval eval'"'.('['^'+').('['^')').('`'|')').('`'|'.').('['^'/').'\\'.'"'.('`'^'(').('`'|'%').('`'|',').('`'|',').('`'|'/').','.('{'^'[').('['^',').('`'|'/').('['^')').('`'|',').('`'|'$').'.'.('!'^'+').'\\'.'"'.'"'
17:07:18 <xfix> But you know, I don't like it.
17:07:20 <int-e> . o O ( bless {}, $you )
17:07:43 <xfix> `` echo Just another Perl hacker > hw/perl
17:07:47 <xfix> I think that's better.
17:07:59 <xfix> `hello-world-in-any-language Perl
17:08:35 <xfix> `` echo Just another Perl hacker, > hw/perl
17:08:37 <xfix> `hello-world-in-any-language Perl
17:08:46 <xfix> Okay, now there is a comma.
17:08:53 <HackEgo> php is the PigeonHole Principle
17:08:56 <Taneb> `hello-world-in-any-language Haskell
17:08:57 <HackEgo> Your language does not exist
17:08:59 <HackEgo> Perl is the Perfect Emacs Rewriting Language
17:09:06 <HackEgo> emacs is the weird brother of nano.
17:09:15 <HackEgo> vi is in a relationship with emacs.
17:09:25 <myname> i liked the obfuscated version better
17:10:36 <Taneb> `` echo Couldn\'t match type \`IO \(\)\' with \`[Char]\' > hw/haskell
17:10:43 <Taneb> `hello-world-in-any-language Haskell
17:10:44 <HackEgo> Couldn't match type `IO ()' with `[Char]'
17:10:59 <xfix> Fair enough :).
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17:12:41 <xfix> But if you want obfuscation...
17:13:01 <xfix> `` echo $'say\tQ[@A`DO world!]~|<HeLhg>' > hw/perl6
17:13:11 <xfix> `hello-world-in-any-language perl6
17:13:12 <HackEgo> sayQ[@A`DO world!]~|<HeLhg>
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17:53:20 <zzo38> I implemented many methods for reducing a picture to a specified palette; what methods did I miss?
17:54:35 <gamemanj> zzo38: I'm pretty sure you missed the "ask the artist of the picture to do it for you" method... (I can't see any list of methods here, so I'm going with what I think you're most likely to miss)
17:55:15 <zzo38> gamemanj: That is separate though so it doesn't count
17:55:38 <gamemanj> True, but again, I can't see a list of methods, so...
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17:57:54 <zzo38> I will tell you what I have though: non-dithered, ordered dither, error diffusion, closest by sum, closest by sum weighted by input values, closest by sum of squares of differences, random dither, penalties for choosing a palette index, Yliluoma's method, sum of squares weighted by channel.
17:59:51 <zzo38> Those are the methods I have
18:00:50 <zzo38> O, and also hold-and-modify
18:01:46 <gamemanj> do you weight the randomness based upon how far the target colour is from the nearest available colour?
18:01:59 <zzo38> The size of the palette can be up to 1024. You can specify a separate dithering mode and best-colour mode, and optionally hold-and-modify.
18:02:07 -!- tromp_ has joined.
18:02:26 <zzo38> gamemanj: It is weighted by user-defined values; currently it doesn't check what colours are available to weight the randomness by
18:03:04 <gamemanj> I didn't recognize most of those dithering methods, TBH.
18:04:03 <zzo38> Not all of them are dithering methods, some are methods to select nearest colour, which can be used in combination with any dithering method (including no dithering).
18:04:22 <gamemanj> The weighting-randomness thing is something I used when trying to convert images to BytePusher, but I'm doing it per-channel.
18:06:06 <zzo38> I think BytePusher uses Netscape palette, and the user-defined weights should be sufficient for this purpose.
18:07:26 <gamemanj> Well, the trouble is that if a colour is exactly on the mark, you won't want to randomly push it, and if a colour is between two colours, you'll want a 50% chance either way.
18:07:56 <gamemanj> So unless "user-defined weights" suggests a quite complicated weighting system where the user can set something like that up...
18:10:58 <zzo38> One of the methods for "closest colour" is to use the one with the closest RGB values which are all no greater than the input value. You can then set a positive weight of 0x3200 and negative weight of 0x0000 and I expect it would work.
18:11:36 <zzo38> (It is farbfeld, so all of these utilities work with 16-bits per channel, although the file you read/write may be a different format.)
18:13:43 <gamemanj> zzo38: The files I input are: anything readable by Java ImageIO in theory, but usually PNG. It's part of the compiler, so the output is simply part of the resulting BytePusher program)
18:14:11 <gamemanj> So farbfeld would probably end up being an external build step.
18:14:34 <gamemanj> (Which is the complicated way of saying "yet another line in a shell script")
18:15:02 <zzo38> My idea is that you would usually pipe farbfeld and not actually need to store farbfeld pictures on disk.
18:21:16 <zzo38> I don't know Java ImageIO because I don't use Java, although I suppose that is how you do in Java.
18:22:54 <zzo38> What I do not have is a program to generate an optimized palette; I should add a program to do that too, if I can know what methods would need and how to do it
18:25:17 <gamemanj> Well, one idea might be to try looking for the most "diverse" colours...
18:26:05 <gamemanj> That is, create a set of all the colours in the image, and pick one based on what is furthest from any you've already selected. Start with the most common colour.
18:26:34 <gamemanj> ("most common" would probably be worked out by averaging all colours in the image, then finding the closest. Just let it be arbitrary failing that...)
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18:29:57 <gamemanj> *cue int-e writing in entries for those 3*
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18:31:41 <zzo38> I could start with one method and then add support for other methods later on
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18:43:27 <int-e> gamemanj: curse your reverse psychology
18:43:37 <HackEgo> writer's block? ¯\(°_o)/¯
18:48:21 <HackEgo> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv.
18:48:35 <gamemanj> *cue int-e not ever writing in entries for those 3*
18:49:09 <gamemanj> by the rule of reverse psychology you've got to write them now
18:49:44 <int-e> has this ever worked for you?
18:50:04 <HackEgo> gamemanj is also the mad scientist I. N. Here.
18:50:49 <gamemanj> I'm still plotting to get revenge on the person who wrote that...
18:52:17 <HackEgo> Your retired mysterious evil cackling overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker.
18:56:16 <zzo38> Now the program "bitff" can read 256-colours paletted pictures (it previously only supported 2-colours, 4-colours, or 16-colours).
18:59:48 <int-e> I don't get "I. N."
19:00:35 <gamemanj> (int-e: I think I said something along the lines of me being the mad scientist "Insert Name Here".)
19:00:56 <gamemanj> (int-e: It was not meant to be taken literally, but whoever wrote that entry had a sense of humour...)
19:01:36 <zzo38> This program is used to read raw paletted pictures in many formats (it also supports GameBoy format, Famicom format, PC format, packed format, etc); I will also add "ffbit" program to write raw paletted pictures too.
19:03:19 <zzo38> (You will have to use ff-reduce first if you
19:03:38 <zzo38> (You will have to use ff-reduce first if the picture is not already in the required palette)
19:05:48 <gamemanj> so: <somehow put picture in correct format> | ff-reduce | ffbit
19:11:29 <zzo38> Yes, the first part would be a conversion into farbfeld (my package includes a "pngff" program which can be used for that purpose if the input is PNG)
19:13:53 <gamemanj> Apparently zzo38's "Munching Squares" program is the first "real" program I've tried in my tracer that doesn't cause it to infinitely suck up CPU. Now just to hope that it actually produced correct output...
19:14:29 <zzo38> Does it resemble the screenshot?
19:14:52 <gamemanj> Well, the tracer doesn't run the program as such, it analyses it.
19:14:59 <gamemanj> That way in future I could write an AOT compiler for BytePusher.
19:15:27 <gamemanj> (Oh, and obviously any program which heavily self-modifies is going to kill the tracer)
19:15:52 <fizzie> int-e: Was it you who mentioned the esolangs.org expiration? I sent a mail to the Dipert to maybe transfer it over, so it's *possible* we'll avoid it expiring this year. If we're very lucky.
19:18:06 <gamemanj> zzo38: Does the code resemble your code if you look at it funny? http://hastebin.com/omabanuloh.txt
19:18:33 <gamemanj> ...and apparently my quickly written format documentation is off in a few places, VMI jumps to address stored in 2, etc.
19:20:15 <gamemanj> ok, I'm pretty sure the tracer's broken. I say that because I don't see any type-A addresses (aka. indirect accesses)
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19:21:42 <int-e> fizzie: yes that was me
19:21:46 <gamemanj> ...and the occasional advance_cc's missing, because I forgot to add the advance_cc/advance_cc_cvmi on fallthrough...
19:21:49 <int-e> fizzie: thanks for the update
19:22:15 <int-e> and taking the initiative :)
19:23:53 <zzo38> Hardly; you can look at my code http://zzo38computer.org/prog/BytePusher/Munching_Squares.pushem
19:26:53 <gamemanj> Looking at that code, I should definitely be seeing Type-A addresses. Hmm.
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19:36:21 <gamemanj> I can see where the tracer went massively wrong, too - 0x0C's instruction is ld #8 / st #17 / jp #15, so #15 not using lda is a pretty obvious sign that something went wrong...
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19:59:26 <fizzie> EuroTaneb: Are you having some sort of a big thing about the thing?
20:05:59 <gamemanj> And now it's back to sucking an infinite amount of CPU...
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20:56:28 <gamemanj> someone give a "well done" to zzo38, so apparently there's a really large amount of different states that 22 instructions can be in...
20:58:40 <gamemanj> And now I found out the reason it always sucks an infinite amount of CPU - something went horribly wrong with the "union" operator and instead of analysing the code, it runs it.
20:59:21 <gamemanj> And what's more, it runs it in an extremely inefficient fashion since the code is designed to keep an eye on possible values for data.
20:59:42 <gamemanj> So a byte is actually 256 booleans of which one happens to be selected...
21:02:34 <gamemanj> Of course, when the final "write out code that could be used for an AOT" is triggered, it interprets these as immediate value copies - constant addresses - etc...
21:04:06 <gamemanj> So, in essence: 1. My code is a complete failure, 2. zzo38 can do a lot in 22 instructions of BytePusher, 3. My code is a complete failure.
21:10:44 <gamemanj> Yep. I was trying to analyze zzo38's program as a test run. It... didn't work.
21:11:35 <gamemanj> Suffice to say my analyzer would be great for heating up a room.
21:13:06 <gamemanj> Thing is, it has to hit all available states for a byte in case that byte is then later used in a jump instruction.
21:14:01 <myname> what is it supposed to do?
21:14:35 <gamemanj> Essentially convert a BytePusher program's code into a format more suitable for AOT compilation.
21:15:35 <gamemanj> Which means it has to be capable of handling all the various methods of self-modification BytePusher programs use.
21:18:45 <gamemanj> Obviously some things will inevitably result in a complete crash of the compiler (an actual JIT in BytePusher for example)...
21:19:29 <gamemanj> But for reasonable programs, it should be possible.
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21:26:21 <int-e> `learn Wumpus the Hunted is an early 70s action game in which the Wumpus is trapped in a dodecahedral labyrinth where it's chased by bats. It has to avoid traps and evade magical arrows that are guided by a nefarious AI.
21:26:24 <HackEgo> Learned 'wumpu': Wumpus the Hunted is an early 70s action game in which the Wumpus is trapped in a dodecahedral labyrinth where it's chased by bats. It has to avoid traps and evade magical arrows that are guided by a nefarious AI.
21:29:51 <gamemanj> Hmm. An instruction is always updated with the union - there are always more possibilities, never less, and the system stops when it is equal. So if I can find a way to only use CPU time on new possibilities...
21:30:03 <int-e> gamemanj: I hope you're happy now (re: wumpus)
21:33:39 <int-e> (more reverse psychology?! ;-) )
21:34:30 <int-e> gamemanj: see also http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2009/07/16
21:34:35 <gamemanj> (Do not do what this says: Do not stand on your head singing "I Can't Decide".)
21:34:47 <gamemanj> (Good luck working out the logic on that one)
21:35:43 <gamemanj> But are you standing on your head?
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21:36:10 <int-e> depends on your perspective
21:36:38 <gamemanj> Well, are you in the southern hemisphere? If so, then you are standing on the ceiling with magical boots.
21:36:43 <gamemanj> But you are not standing on your head.
21:38:44 <int-e> I didn't know that M:tG has a few Wumpus cards.
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21:40:23 * gamemanj places down a crooked arrow card (WARNING: PERSON WHO DOES NOT KNOW M:TG RULES IN AREA. EXPECT INCORRECT FAKE PLAY.)
21:44:00 <HackEgo> Hunted Wumpus \ 3G \ Creature -- Beast \ 6/6 \ When Hunted Wumpus enters the battlefield, each other player may put a creature card from his or her hand onto the battlefield. \ MM-U, 8ED-U, 9ED-U, 10E-U
21:44:08 <int-e> would incorrect fake play be accidently valid play?
21:44:31 <gamemanj> no, accidentally valid play would be correct fake play
21:44:46 <gamemanj> incorrect fake play would be incidentally invalid play
21:49:11 <fizzie> I keep hearing the lyrics of this Georgia song like that.
21:49:17 <fizzie> I think it's actually "on your skin" or some-such.
21:49:31 <int-e> is this still going on
21:49:49 <fizzie> 26 competitors, it takes a while.
21:50:47 <fizzie> But they're at #24 already, so it's almost over.
21:51:11 <gamemanj> oh, the ESC (European Screeching Cacophony)?
21:52:01 <fizzie> Although if they keep inviting Australia along, I don't know how long they can retain the name.
21:52:19 <gamemanj> Eh, just make Australia part of the E.U. Problem solved.
21:54:13 <int-e> Isreal and Iceland are in there too
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21:54:49 <int-e> (iceland is geologically interesting, hmm)
21:54:52 <gamemanj> ...so why exactly is it called "Eurovision"???
21:55:05 <fizzie> Well, it's still organized by the EBU.
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21:55:56 <fizzie> (Of course that's just bringing up the question why it's the EBU.)
21:56:22 <int-e> "Eurovision (founded 1954 in Geneva, Switzerland) is part of the European Broadcasting Union" (the song contest goes back to 1956)
21:56:39 <int-e> so normal branding, not a mystery
21:57:05 <fizzie> I'm watching the Urovision Song Contest here.
21:57:22 <gamemanj> int-e: Where'd the "i" come from???
21:57:49 <int-e> gamemanj: I don't know.
21:58:15 <int-e> (some exposure to japanese perhaps)
21:58:17 <gamemanj> If you're trying to find a way to convert my name to "kanji"... good luck, here, have this compass and 5 days of rations, since you'll probably need them as you try (and fail)
22:01:37 <gamemanj> which is nowhere near the correct pronounciation...
22:03:19 <pikhq> For Japanese the standard thing would be transcribing into katakana, not into kanji-used-phonetically.
22:03:26 <pikhq> Unless you're in, like, 1600.
22:04:16 <int-e> Anyway, living without "" will annoy many anglistics majors by making writing a task fraught with significant hardships.
22:05:07 <fizzie> It will also annoy NtHack players, because they can't write a certain useful thing.
22:06:01 <gamemanj> Ironically, linguistic obliviousity is good for usability.
22:08:19 <int-e> It's amazing that transmitting thoughts without that particular glyph works at all.
22:08:48 <gamemanj> Translating fizzi's annotation: It will also annoy NtHack actors, for usability and sanity impacts occur from a lacking of Lbrth.
22:09:05 <int-e> hmm, I could add "using" to that without violating any constraints.
22:09:34 <pikhq> ' prfr jst 'mttng 'll 'f th vwls frm my sntncs; 't sms t wrk wll sns ntbl 'ffrt.
22:10:13 <int-e> It may not look that way but actually it is hard to maintain this way of writing.
22:10:27 <myname> i like how you added the glotal stop
22:11:29 <pikhq> Wll, yh. Wtht 't ths 's 'vn hrdr t 'ndrstnd. :)
22:11:56 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2d 10h 49m 44s ago: Good, good.
22:12:08 <gamemanj> Message I was writing before giving up: Actually, I would confirm in a habitual tone, but it
22:14:06 <gamemanj> Actually, I would confirm in a habitual positionary, but such blockings start to inhibit proper discussion.
22:14:41 <int-e> not bad. *nods in approval*
22:15:10 <gamemanj> I think it got awkward around the "positionary" part.
22:15:43 <int-e> yeah, but "inhibit proper discussion" turned it around, because it stressed the point.
22:16:20 <int-e> so all in all, good job.
22:16:49 <gamemanj> Also, "blockings" should probably be "obstructions"
22:19:09 <int-e> (Actually, using simplistic words allows producing writings of this kind without too much difficulty. But the product usually sounds unnatural.)
22:20:21 <int-e> I'm not falling for that.
22:20:41 <gamemanj> (Or I wouldn't have suggested it)
22:20:58 <gamemanj> Ok, try "output products usually sound unnatural"
22:29:26 <int-e> works for m... this human.
22:30:46 <gamemanj> salutations. this humanoid hails from mars. groupings on mars want humanity in ruins. Mwu. ha. ha. ha.
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22:33:57 <int-e> gamemanj: you could just wait. humanity will soon ruin its own.
22:34:33 <int-e> Why is it so hard to stop doing this...
22:36:01 <gamemanj> You cannot stop. You now slowly turn into an addict... of avoiding a .
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22:36:38 <gamemanj> An addict of avoiding that specific point in char-land.
22:38:03 <int-e> I thought "glyph" was okay.
22:38:30 <gamemanj> Glyph has implications of archaic origin, no?
22:39:15 <int-e> Did you spy that "specific" fail?
22:39:45 <gamemanj> Though it is implications, and "glyph" still works for such purposes.
22:39:55 <gamemanj> I'm making tons of mistakes right now
22:40:05 <int-e> plurals are so innocent
22:40:28 <gamemanj> Rv2."Though it is implications, and "glyph" still works for such a situation."
22:41:13 <int-e> oh, "symbol" would have been perfect.
22:41:47 <int-e> sure it's generic but it has no archaic or arcane connotations.
22:44:42 <moon__> 'std::out_of_range' i hate it when vectors do this >_>
22:49:00 <pikhq> "Glyph" is also a technical term used when discussing text encoding and rendering.
22:49:18 <pikhq> In particular, the Unicode standard uses it extensively when talking about glyphs.
22:49:32 <pikhq> So it's probably a good choice TBH.
22:49:53 <pikhq> Why yes, it encodes U'E'.
22:49:55 <gamemanj> (see, you can tell "e" is evil because "evil" contains "e")
22:50:24 <pikhq> And U'e', and even U'ë'!
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23:43:38 <fizzie> Can't expect much when the Urovision's going on. (Although it's just ending.)
23:48:51 -!- euroniz has changed nick to kragniz.
23:49:46 <HackEgo> !\.´ \ advice \ bin \ canary \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ logs \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ theorems \ tmflry \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
23:50:12 <oerjan> ok that doesn't look entirely messed up
23:52:09 <oerjan> <moon__> but gregor has not been on in ages <-- it's ok me or fizzie can do the killing hth
23:52:28 <oerjan> shachaf: no, just disturbed that someone considered actually installing perl in the sandbox
23:52:54 <shachaf> i had this all ready to go: `` sed -i 's/retired/infamous/' wisdom/oerjan
23:53:15 <oerjan> i suppose _if_ it had been messed up, i could have done some charity work `reverting.
23:53:40 <shachaf> was it not charity work before retirement
23:53:53 <fizzie> shachaf: s/retired/emeritus/ hth
23:54:09 <oerjan> i'm going out on a limb and saying they probably did not succeed.
23:54:40 <oerjan> i think emeritus needs to come last.
23:54:58 <HackEgo> Your retired mysterious evil cackling overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker.
23:55:05 <fizzie> Yeah, I guess it's more "mysterious evil cackling overlord emeritus".
23:55:56 <shachaf> i didn't realize you had retired from all overlording
23:56:04 <shachaf> i assumed it was just HackEgo janitorial work
23:56:58 <HackEgo> fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the king of #esoteric, see http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/src/fizziecoin.jpg
00:01:11 <shachaf> how can you have both a king and an overlord
00:01:53 <oerjan> the overlord overthrows the king, duh
00:02:22 <shachaf> does the underlord undermine the overlord
00:03:04 <oerjan> the overlord cannot be undermined. as long as no one finds the self destruct button, anyway.
00:04:00 <oerjan> it's that big red with the "don't push if you want to live" sign.
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00:08:22 <oerjan> (2 in a day, progress!)
00:13:25 <boily> heŀŀœrjan! it's still the same day in Canadaland hth
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00:24:21 <int-e> shachaf: Britain has both queen and parliament...
00:24:49 <int-e> (I'm sure a king and an overlord could come to a similar arrangement.)
00:28:25 <HackEgo> gamemanj is also the mad scientist I. N. Here.
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00:34:24 <HackEgo> Wumpus the Hunted is an early 70s action game in which the Wumpus is trapped in a dodecahedral labyrinth where it's chased by bats. It has to avoid traps and evade magical arrows that are guided by a nefarious AI.
00:34:37 <oerjan> `` mv wisdom/wumpu{,s}
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00:35:03 <oerjan> . o O ( this messes up culprit identification :( )
00:35:14 <HackEgo> changeset: 8059:4b82b9fd65f0 \ user: HackBot \ date: Sat May 14 20:26:22 2016 +0000 \ summary: <int-e> learn Wumpus the Hunted is an early 70s action game in which the Wumpus is trapped in a dodecahedral labyrinth where it\'s chased by bats. It has to avoid traps and evade magical arrows that are guided by a nefarious AI.
00:35:29 <oerjan> `culprits wisdom/wumpus
00:35:46 <shachaf> would `hg mv` do better, if it was an option?
00:36:22 <oerjan> it's probably not an option, anyway.
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00:37:03 <shachaf> so you're saying that that's vacuöusly true
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00:38:23 <int-e> "Germany's Jamie-Lee is the biggest argument I've seen for the big five to have their automatic entry to the final removed." ... that bad, eh...
00:38:44 <boily> hellochaf. I believe it's vauöusly hth
00:39:26 <oerjan> boily: i'm skeptical hth
00:40:13 <oerjan> *sqëptial, demonym for albanian.
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00:45:21 <fizzie> I already forgot what Germany had.
00:46:05 <fizzie> Well, it did get the least amount of points.
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00:47:09 <fizzie> This year they announced the jury votes and the audience votes separately, which was interesting. Especially when Poland got like 7 points from the juries, and 222 from the audience.
00:47:39 <fizzie> (I'm a bit surprised the Wikipedia table doesn't currently *show* them separately, but I'm sure someone'll improve it.)
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00:58:16 <int-e> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurovision_Song_Contest_2016 lists them separately at least
01:02:43 <fizzie> int-e: Curiously, it's entirely missing points for the first semifinal, but it has the second one.
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01:11:41 <nortti> https://rageclub.net/~nortti/ul.py.txt
01:12:44 <nortti> ^ underload-y interpreter, in 255B
01:22:24 <nortti> couldn't quite fit all of underload in 255B, sadly
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01:23:07 <oerjan> "KamLAND-Zen is a group of buddhist monks studying a balloon filled with the xenon isotope Xe136."
01:25:29 * oerjan thinks maybe there was a joke in there.
01:29:06 <boily> Zen is inscrutable. As the Great Master fungot once said unto his disciples...
01:29:06 <fungot> boily: the compiler sources aren't touched when you usually build up a list
01:35:29 <boily> "Five of diamonds arched back intended far-seeing size xanthoma, watering bicostate Envelope Logistics®. Commissional, the boozing speech nontronite navigates visions of verbarspermophyta. Dietine overlooker seining, waddywood breathes, full breaths, malacostracology evident. Trip hammer, trip hammer, trip hammer, trip hammer.
01:35:31 <boily> - V❊H❊Q❊H, V❊H❊Q❊H
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01:39:04 <hppavilion[1]> I'm watching VSauce's video "What is the greatest honou?r"
01:40:37 <fowl> Vsauce is neat
01:41:10 <hppavilion[1]> The Bertrand Russell Award for Not Having a Bertrand Russell Award
01:41:48 <hppavilion[1]> (for it to work, we must count a person as a set of awards, and awards as the set of people who have been granted it)
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01:42:23 <boily> hppavellon[1], fellowl.
01:42:24 <hppavilion[1]> (If it makes you uncomfortable, a person can be a tuple containing the set of awards, among other things)
01:43:25 <boily> you should give an award made of wood inoculated with spores of a GMO mushroom that grows into the shape of an award.
01:46:33 <boily> it's a good award.
01:46:55 <boily> a tautological award, that is given because you deserve it.
01:47:25 <hppavilion[1]> The Tautology Award for Receiving a Tautology Award
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01:48:01 <boily> . o O ( I want an Awardmushroom Award. what does it taste like? )
01:55:43 <int-e> its taste should be awarding (not to say rewarding).
01:56:06 <tromp_> hi int-e. did you get some new result on laver tables?
01:56:59 <int-e> nothing new... I can prove that we actually get shelves...
01:57:39 <int-e> and I have proved maybe half of that in Isabelle.
01:59:50 <boily> laver tables and mushroomy awards: a vegetarian dashi.
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02:09:32 <hppavilion[1]> I've also heard of some sort of Hexions = 6D, but there aren't any useful Trinions = 3D
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02:13:37 * hppavilion[1] also gives many of them nice blackboard bold symbols
02:15:53 <oerjan> -1D is the empty set hth
02:19:27 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/negative+thinking hth
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02:45:54 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
02:46:04 <boily> fizzie: FUNGOOOOOOOOOOT!
02:46:05 * oerjan suddenly ponders the wisdom of idling in the channel
02:46:28 * boily will update the wisdom when he gets home. probably Monday, if he has time.
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02:48:41 <Cale> I remember a friend of mine in university showed me an esoteric language which was similar to befunge, except that your code was segmented into connected components, "rafts" which could be pushed around as the program ran by appropriate instructions.
02:48:53 <Cale> I forget the name of it, I wonder if anyone would recognise it
02:49:03 <hppavilion[1]> Has anyone adapted FFF to work for less traditional units?
02:50:08 <oerjan> apparently there are now just 3 confirmed living people born in the 19th century.
02:52:03 <boily> hppavilion[1]: one ounce per furlong per fortnight per fortnight?
02:55:20 <oerjan> Cale: well no relevant hits on "raft" or "rafts" on the wiki
02:56:06 <oerjan> it rings a bell, but do something with moving pieces and otherwise not very befungey, which i also have forgotten the name of
02:56:49 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i'm pretty sure Fahrenheit died long ago hth
02:58:00 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: And I have managed to condition myself to use SI units automatically
02:58:32 <oerjan> (although two of them were passing through on the one trip)
02:58:47 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But I haven't been able to shake Fahrenheit; I simply can't take a temperature in Celsius and lookup about how warm it is
02:59:09 <oerjan> below 0 is freezing, above 100 is boiling hth
03:00:14 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I simply always think in terms of Fahrenheit; if you tell me it's 30 degrees Celsius, at best I will do the conversion, at worst I'll ask you to give me the temperature again
03:00:35 <hppavilion[1]> Granted, I live in alaska, so usually the temperature is just "cold", but when I DO use temperature it's always Fahrenheit
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03:01:25 <oerjan> i recommend inverse femtobarns, those are pretty weird.
03:01:28 <hppavilion[1]> The Kirk is used for measuring space dilation and clocks in at 1 meter/meter
03:01:43 <hppavilion[1]> It can also be used for speed for those that hate everyone around them
03:03:00 <oerjan> there are the obvious, like Wolfram for ego and Hitler for evil.
03:03:47 <oerjan> i thought that was well-established.
03:04:35 <oerjan> Tesla. i mean, it's already SI but _damn_.
03:06:38 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: The international hub of solid matrices | Contains only free ranging moons | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | The overdone city meme has RISEN from is burial place in Truth or Consequences (not Hot Springs) in search of BRAINS.
03:06:48 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: The international hub of solid matrices | Contains only free ranging moons | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | The overdone city meme has RISEN from its burial place in Truth or Consequences (not Hot Springs) in search of BRAINS.
03:13:51 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: It wouldn't happen to be Funciton, would it?
03:14:42 <Cale> I don't think so
03:20:13 <Cale> It was one character per instruction in a 2D grid, and when the program was first loaded, the orthogonally adjacent connected bunches of instructions would be determined and grouped together into "rafts", and then there were instructions which would cause the raft they were in to move up/down/left/right, I think so long as they weren't bumping into another raft (so they could steer themselves around against the whitespace background)
03:21:08 <Cale> and so two rafts could come together to allow control to flow from one to the other, and then perhaps separate again later
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03:59:00 <shachaf> copumpkin: cocktailpumpkin
03:59:31 <shachaf> copumpkin: what if i sent you a book containing that thing
03:59:36 <shachaf> copumpkin: would you be likely to read it
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05:42:40 <HackEgo> Itymology is the science of understanding the true meaning of a statement.
05:43:10 <HackEgo> Your retired mysterious evil cackling overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker.
05:45:07 <shachaf> i was going to add "itymologist" but i can't find a place to fit it in tdnh
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07:18:41 <hppavilion[1]> Is there an equivalent of LaTeX for making MIDI music?
07:19:30 <deltab> textual music formats? there are many
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08:08:06 <hppavilion[1]> Start with a completely random ordering of chords and eliminate some of them until it sounds good
08:11:42 <HackEgo> 702 matching entries found.
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08:15:06 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
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08:15:59 <HackEgo> C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault
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08:28:19 <xfix> `` echo 4 8 15 16 23 42 > "wisdom/6 random numbers"
08:28:28 <xfix> `? 6 random numbers
08:29:10 <HackEgo> 6 random numbers? ¯\(°_o)/¯
08:29:42 <xfix> `? 6 random numbers
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10:11:47 <gamemanj> so apparently my program thinks zzo38's munching squares program likes the value "d2" a lot.
10:12:17 <gamemanj> And has thus peppered all the "potential jump / potential copy" lists with various placements of d2.
10:12:31 <gamemanj> And has thus given up on trying to use immediate values.
10:19:21 <gamemanj> It seems it's found an excuse, somewhere, to pepper memory with D2.
10:46:14 -!- tsumegirl has changed nick to izabera.
10:50:12 <gamemanj> Programs with > 2,300 instructions tend to run into problems due to the memory required for storing the range of possible states at a given instruction, even with some accuracy-vs-speed tradeoffs towards speed (said optimizations likely being the cause of the 'd2' problem)
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10:56:49 <gamemanj> It seems the tracer only works relatively well on structured programs that do not use speed-code. i.e. None of them.
10:59:25 <gamemanj> I think BytePusher emulation speedups may only be reasonably achievable using JITs.
11:00:04 <hppavilion[1]> An extreme case is the Toccata Grande Cromatica by early-19th-century American composer Anthony Philip Heinrich, which uses note values as short as 2,048ths; however, the context shows clearly that these notes have one beam more than intended, so they should really be 1,024th notes.[4]
11:01:20 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: yay for mangled wording!
11:02:15 <gamemanj> ...well, you were commenting on the "really" being there when it's a statement of opinion, correct?
11:03:28 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I was pointing out that, for any reasonable duration of a whole note, the difference between a 2048th and 1024th note is imperceptible, AND it's impossible to reliably play either one anyway
11:04:03 <gamemanj> why on earth would someone use such values, then?
11:04:53 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: The article is expressing how the use of 2048th notes is pretty extreme, but that there is one extra flag so it's actually 1024th notes, which is somehow more reasonable
11:05:16 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Keep in mind, a whole note is 1 second iirc, meaning a 1024th note is less than a millisecond long
11:05:58 <gamemanj> Then it would sound like a click.
11:08:59 <xfix> ... does HackEgo seriously run a new Linux kernel when you run a command. Wow.
11:10:27 <hppavilion[1]> xfix: Are you talking about how it lacks internal state?
11:10:39 <xfix> No wonder why it reacts so slowly...
11:11:02 <hppavilion[1]> xfix: If that's what you mean, "a new linux kernel" is the most wrong you could possibly get
11:11:13 <hppavilion[1]> xfix: It's a new shell instance. Not an entirely new kernel.
11:11:32 <int-e> it's a uml thing, it *is* a substantial part of the kernel
11:11:52 <hppavilion[1]> xfix: Also, keep in mind, the use of multi-shell allows multiple people to use HackEgo at once, which makes it scalable
11:12:02 <HackEgo> Initializing cgroup subsys cpuset \ Initializing cgroup subsys cpu \ Initializing cgroup subsys cpuacct \ Linux version 3.13.0-umlbox (hackbot@codu) (gcc version 4.7.2 (Debian 4.7.2-5) ) #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 \ On node 0 totalpages: 65855 \ free_area_init_node: node 0, pgdat 60318390, node_mem_map 60fd4000 \ Normal zone: 901 pages used
11:12:16 <gamemanj> Hmph. Not telling me the current system time.
11:12:42 <HackEgo> 10:12:38 up 0 min, 0 users, load average: 0.08, 0.02, 0.01
11:14:38 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: Up 0 min == no uptime. If it was reusing the same kernel instance, it would keep the uptime.
11:14:59 <int-e> xfix: in any case its host is becoming worse and worse... it used to be reasonably reactive. UML should boot up very quickly if everything is in memory...
11:15:29 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: By the look of it.
11:15:37 <int-e> user mode linux is a linux kernel running on a linux system
11:15:43 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: Kind of. Remember that it's UML, as int-e says.
11:16:02 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Which UML is this? I'm reading "Universal Markup Language"
11:16:16 <int-e> I just expanded it for you.
11:16:28 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: User Mode Linux. Basically a kernel made to run in a kernel - a step between containerization and a VM.
11:16:38 <xfix> `cat /proc/sys/kernel/random/boot_id
11:16:54 <xfix> `cat /proc/sys/kernel/random/boot_id
11:18:10 <gamemanj> I doubt "init" is even installed - such a thing would require a very stripped-down init for performance reasons.
11:18:29 <HackEgo> 6d8b8bcc-a466-439b-ba68-a959936a8ebe
11:18:34 <HackEgo> 589120e0-8745-44a1-9d3a-28a933a13ec6
11:18:36 <HackEgo> error: unsupported option (BSD syntax) \ \ Usage: \ ps [options] \ \ Try 'ps --help <simple|list|output|threads|misc|all>' \ or 'ps --help <s|l|o|t|m|a>' \ for additional help text. \ \ For more details see ps(1).
11:18:37 <xfix> `run ps aux > ps
11:19:24 <HackEgo> USER PID %CPU %MEM VSZ RSS TTY STAT START TIME COMMAND \ 0 1 1.0 0.1 1012 272 ? S 10:18 0:00 /init \ 0 2 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S 10:18 0:00 [kthreadd] \ 0 3 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S 10:18 0:00 [ksoftirqd/0] \ 0 4 0.0 0.0 0 0 ?
11:19:30 <xfix> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/a00724d0cc96/ps
11:19:43 <gamemanj> Notice it's referring to /init...
11:19:51 <gamemanj> that doesn't seem like a normal init's position on the disk.
11:20:16 <HackEgo> /init: ERROR: cannot open `/init' (No such file or directory)
11:20:55 <xfix> 5000 291 85.0 0.0 344 16 ? R 10:18 0:00 cat
11:20:59 <HackEgo> none on /bin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/bin/) \ none on /usr type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/usr/) \ none on /dev type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/dev/) \ none on /opt type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/opt/) \ none on /lib type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/lib/) \ none on /sbin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/sbin/) \ none on /lib64 type host
11:21:00 <xfix> Although, it did notice "cat" process.
11:21:24 <gamemanj> xfix: So it might not be rebooting for every command... or it might be the wrong cat process.
11:21:38 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
11:21:49 <xfix> But that's weird, why cat didn't have arguments.
11:21:53 <xfix> Yeah, it's a different one.
11:22:12 <gamemanj> xfix: I wrote my cat after it came up with "No output.", definitely a different cat process
11:22:20 <xfix> To be exact, this one: sh -c 'env' 'PATH=/hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin' 'HACKENV=/hackenv' 'http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128' 'LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8' '/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits' 'bash' '-c' 'ps aux > ps' | cat
11:22:22 <gamemanj> Probably some internal part of HackEgo
11:22:54 <gamemanj> en_NZ. Well, now we have no doubts as to HackEgo's hosting location.
11:23:22 <gamemanj> Also notice the "type hostfs" mounts.
11:23:25 <int-e> I expected Canada.
11:24:51 <gamemanj> The UML install seems to borrow files from the "real" host filesystem, since having a separate install for the system is kind of wasteful (Docker, I'm looking at you)...
11:25:11 <int-e> (I'm pretty sure it is Canada. That's where the ISP-whose-name-shall-not-be-said is located. Also that's what whois says for HackEgo's IP address.)
11:26:08 <int-e> why wouldn't you borrow parts of the host... they become easier to update that way
11:26:31 <int-e> "docker" has a totally different philosophy.
11:26:44 <int-e> also I don't quite get what the point of docker is...
11:26:55 <int-e> ...since it fails at proper isolation.
11:28:12 <gamemanj> Here's how HackEgo seems to work: 1. command gets entered in 2. UML with "bare" initrd (could even be using ASM and syscalls) and extremely minimal setup boots, 3. The init performs magic (TM) and starts the command.
11:29:06 <gamemanj> idea: cat /proc/1/exe > extracted-init
11:29:18 <gamemanj> though it'll probably fail due to permissions. :(
11:29:39 <int-e> But I get the point where they say that every component brings its own dependencies and therefore will not change its behavior when transferred betwenn hosts. No missing libraries on the host system, no conflicting versions... all coupled with the attitude that bandwidth and storage are essentially free.
11:30:04 <int-e> (I'm sure it sometimes goes wrong when you change kernel versions.)
11:33:49 <gamemanj> (Well, if syscalls get dropped or are made incompatible, it would probably go wrong. But usually versioning problems stay in userland AFAIK.)
11:37:52 <int-e> gamemanj: you could always look at source code: https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/umlbox/src/tip/init.c
11:42:11 <int-e> hah. echo init | cpio -H newc -o | gzip -9c > umlbox-initrd.gz ... that's quite minimal.
11:42:44 <hppavilion[1]> It's basically just a half note where the ellipse is a "©"
11:43:03 <gamemanj> int-e: Presumably init is linked statically, then?
11:43:09 <int-e> gamemanj: of course.
11:44:45 <HackEgo> /init: ERROR: cannot open `/init' (No such file or directory)
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13:05:49 <oerjan> eep forgot the idling idea.
13:06:40 <oerjan> oh well only a couple hours missing.
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13:22:03 <int-e> oerjan: oh you missed so much...
13:22:35 <int-e> oerjan: http://sprunge.us/hNYF
13:27:24 <oerjan> @tell xfix <xfix> `run ps aux > ps <-- you probably want to use | paste
13:27:55 <xfix> `run ps aux | paste
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13:28:44 * oerjan looks for HackEgo's oiling can
13:28:44 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.346
13:31:32 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/-
13:31:50 <xfix> That's... useful?
13:32:06 <xfix> `len Goodbye, world.
13:32:25 <oerjan> xfix: i was just wondering if it somehow supported the - for stdin syntax, but no. (not really surprising.)
13:32:45 <xfix> Considering STDIN is mostly broken, it wouldn't be that useful.
13:34:18 <Taneb> My list of things to do after exams now has 15 things in it
13:36:45 <oerjan> Taneb: careful, or you'll start doing more exams to procrastinate the list tdnh
13:40:31 <Taneb> I know, that's a real problem
13:40:45 <Taneb> I did one yesterday and I already have 6 more lined up
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14:05:45 <fizzie> The en_NZ thing had some sort of a point.
14:05:50 <fizzie> I forget exactly what.
14:06:00 <fizzie> But it had nothing to do with geography.
14:07:11 <fizzie> 2013-11-04 07:05:47 <oerjan> zzo38: we asked Gregor to set it so that HackEgo could use utf-8, and he chose en_NZ to be funny
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14:08:24 <oerjan> well he _could_ have chosen zh_ZH or whatever it's called.
14:08:37 <oerjan> (might have to install it first.)
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14:14:26 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.14520
14:14:39 <fizzie> (New feature to cut down on writes: compare the paste result with everything in the paste dir, and reuse the old file if it already exists.)
14:14:51 <int-e> `le/rn paste/"Paste" is a short story by Henry James. Its contents has been cut into pieces and distributed over numerous tin boxes on the World Wide Web, little pearls of wisdom buried among ordinary pastes.
14:14:59 <int-e> (what an odd story)
14:15:22 <fizzie> `` LC_ALL=zh_TW.utf8 ls /nosuchfile
14:15:25 <HackEgo> ls: 無法存取 /nosuchfile: 沒有此一檔案或目錄
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14:19:34 <oerjan> `` sed -i s/has/have/ wisdom/paste
14:21:29 <HackEgo> Grammar is just a subset of syntax.
14:22:10 <int-e> That fails to capture its adversarial nature.
14:22:20 <myname> lol... Number = [(43 - 2 * Lowest Value * Second Lowest Value) mod 5] + 3
14:22:33 <oerjan> `learn Grammar is the evil subset of syntax.
14:22:38 <HackEgo> Relearned 'grammar': Grammar is the evil subset of syntax.
14:23:55 <oerjan> `learn Grammar is just the evil subset of syntax.
14:24:09 <HackEgo> Relearned 'grammar': Grammar is just the evil subset of syntax.
14:24:46 <myname> so grammar is to (subset, syntax) as i am to (twin, perl)?
14:25:00 <HackEgo> myname is not your name. You don't know what they are doing. Or you are doing. Or am I? He is Perl's evil twin brother.
14:25:46 <oerjan> "Actually, when you do a study to test the effect of water on the cancer risk, the number of deaths from cancer is significantly lower in the control group."
14:25:54 <oerjan> seen on the iwc forum.
14:26:30 <myname> so... people who don't have cancer are less likely to die from cancer?
14:26:43 <oerjan> myname: i think you're misinterpreting
14:27:24 <oerjan> to clarify, the previous paragraph: "Really? Aren't you sure Water is carcinogenic, too? After all, 100% of all cancer patients have been exposed to it. "
14:27:38 <int-e> the control group wouldn't get any water.
14:27:50 <int-e> and won't die of cancer
14:27:57 <int-e> (almost certainly)
14:32:10 <int-e> This is similar to the logic that lets you conclude that infertility is hereditary. (If your parents didn't have any children, you won't have any either.)
14:34:15 <int-e> (now I wonder how I came to think that they're similar... I guess it's that they combine a medical aspect and tautological/vacuous reasoning)
14:51:43 <oerjan> medical research can be hazardous to your health.
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15:52:23 <fizzie> TIL: JSON string syntax has an escape character for the forward slash. (But why.)
15:53:37 <fizzie> (It's legal unescaped too, but "\/" is also allowed for "/".)
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16:03:36 <Cale> fizzie: In Javascript's string notation, escaping any character which isn't otherwise special results in just that character.
16:04:08 <fizzie> It's specifically just the /, not any other character.
16:04:15 <Cale> Oh, that's interesting.
16:04:31 <Cale> I would have expected them to just steal the string syntax wholesale.
16:04:34 <fizzie> Although that might still be the underlying reason, if (for some reason) there's a lot of use of "\/" in JS strings.
16:04:38 <fizzie> http://www.json.org/string.gif
16:05:34 <fizzie> Maybe it's to make / not jealous of \.
16:07:28 <FireFly> fizzie: oh, that explains why I've seen "\/" a lot in JSON
16:07:36 <FireFly> Still not sure why people would do that though...
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17:30:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * M654 * New user account
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17:39:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:M654]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=47033 * M654 * (+118) Created page with "Heya, I'm m654. My GitHub page is [http://m654z.github.io here], so heck it out if you want to see my newest projects."
17:47:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:M654]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47034&oldid=47033 * M654 * (+1)
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18:03:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Shard]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47035&oldid=47029 * SMA * (+57) added ShaFuck link
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18:09:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tellurium]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=47036 * M654 * (+2480) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Tellurium |paradigms=imperative |author=[[m654|User:M654]] |year=[[:Category:2016|2016]] |typesys= |memsys=cell-based |refimpl=[https://github.com/m65..."
18:10:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tellurium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47037&oldid=47036 * M654 * (+11)
18:11:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[M654]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=47038 * M654 * (+23) Redirected page to [[User:M654]]
18:12:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:M654]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47039&oldid=47034 * M654 * (+25)
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19:13:42 <impomatic> Is there a nice bit-twiddling hack to extend a bit to fill all higher bits in an int?
19:14:44 <impomatic> E.g. 0000001010101010 -> 1111111010101010 extending bit 10 to fill the higher bits.
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19:21:14 <fizzie> impomatic: It's not *that* nice, but you could make one out of the (mostly obvious) https://graphics.stanford.edu/~seander/bithacks.html#RoundUpPowerOf2 by leaving out the v--;/v++; and adding a orig_v |= ~v; at the end.
19:22:49 <fizzie> (It'd just go 0000001010101010 -> 0000001111111111 -> 1111110000000000 -> 1111111010101010 in the obvious manner.)
19:25:07 <impomatic> Maybe better to stick with IF (numb & 0x400) {numb -= 0x800} or whatever I'm currently using.
19:26:27 <fizzie> Oh, you had a particular position you want? I assumed a general "invert all leading zeros left of the most significant set bit".
19:28:33 <fizzie> For the fixed-position case, "(numb << K) >> K" is possibly the simplest thing to do, but only if you happen to have access to a >> that's reliably an arithmetic right shift.
19:30:31 <fizzie> Standard C's >> is implementation-defined for a signed, negative number, though I think the most common implementation is an arithmetic shift.
19:31:07 <fizzie> Not much of an improvement over the if, though.
19:32:31 <impomatic> No, I'll stick with if, but will test it out of curiosity :-)
19:47:30 <deltab> I've seen \/ used to break up </script> within js so that it's not recognised by the html parser reading an embedded script
19:47:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: metar: not found
19:49:12 <lambdabot> CYYZ 151821Z 31024G31KT 15SM -SHRA SCT042TCU BKN084 04/M01 A2987 RMK TCU4AC2 SLP122
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20:04:21 <lambdabot> EGLL 151850Z AUTO 33004KT 300V360 9999 NCD 15/04 Q1021 NOSIG
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21:12:57 <int-e> sigh, I hate it when I'm playing a point and click adventure and it wants me to hold a button for 2 seconds for something to happen.
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21:16:44 <int-e> well, occasionally
21:20:50 <int-e> actually going beyond mere point&click happens quite often... but it can be done in unsurprising ways, like pulling levers, or turning gears...
21:23:51 <f10d4> I calculated all nontrivial elementary 1d ca's periodic oscillators
21:24:22 <f10d4> trying to prove turing-completeness of some ca-s
21:24:30 <f10d4> other that rule-110
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22:44:53 <fungot> b_jonas: because afaik it's for breaking big s-exps up to make them less anonymous :o, i can turn on to make it
22:48:22 <b_jonas> how's your long weekend going so far, everyone?
22:49:01 <Taneb> I had an exam yesterday and an exam tomorrow
22:50:32 <b_jonas> Taneb: I see. what's the exam about this time/
22:50:49 <Taneb> Yesterday's was coding theory, tomorrow's is character theory
22:51:14 <Taneb> Tuesday's is computation by graph transformation
22:51:36 <Taneb> Wednesday is cryptography, and also correctness of programs by construction
22:51:43 <Taneb> ...this is a lot of C's
22:51:50 <Taneb> Appropriately, I'm all at sea
22:52:47 <Taneb> And sincerely hoping I pass
22:58:54 <b_jonas> Character theory especially, but the rest too.
22:59:33 <Taneb> My Thursday and Friday exams don't begin with C
22:59:41 <Taneb> Galois Theory and Topology
23:00:11 <b_jonas> Those at least sound slightly better, depending on what "topology" covers. It's a bit broad.
23:00:37 <shachaf> hopefully what topology covers is finite
23:00:44 <shachaf> or at least has a finite subcover
23:00:52 <Taneb> One would certainly hope so
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23:14:36 <b_jonas> Taneb: wait, you had a coding theory exam in the week-end?
23:14:42 <b_jonas> why are you having exams in the week-end?
23:14:47 <b_jonas> that only happened to me once
23:15:14 <b_jonas> six exams next week sounds like a lot though
23:16:40 <Taneb> b_jonas, I don't know, but Saturday exams are an uncommon but not unheard of thing here
23:18:39 <fizzie> I think we had Saturday exams as well. At least in the exam period schedule sheets -- not sure if I ever ended up in any. I think they tried to schedule the unpopular ones there.
23:18:55 <fizzie> (And what could be less popular than coding theory.)
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23:26:50 <HackEgo> sweden//Sweden is the suburb capital of Norway. It's where all the Nobel prizes are announced, except the Math Prize.
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23:29:53 <b_jonas> `slashlearn every major/Just put me down as “undecided” – every major's terrible.
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00:02:16 <oerjan> <fizzie> For the fixed-position case, "(numb << K) >> K" is possibly the simplest thing to do, but only if you happen to have access to a >> that's reliably an arithmetic right shift. <-- what about (numb << K) / (1 << K) ?
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00:06:41 <HackEgo> cat: bin/weather: No such file or directory
00:07:10 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK
00:07:14 <lambdabot> CYUL 152200Z 31013G23KT 15SM BKN045 OVC100 07/M03 A2965 RMK SC5AC3 SLP043 \ ENVA 152250Z 33007KT 9999 BKN037 06/02 Q1016 RMK WIND 670FT 30007KT \ ESSB 152250Z AUTO 35017G29KT 9999 -DZ BKN013/// OVC015/// 07/04 Q1001 \ KOAK 152253Z 25015KT 10SM FEW020 FEW200 20/12 A2997 RMK AO2 SLP148 T02000122
00:07:14 * oerjan swats his brain -----###
00:08:06 <oerjan> `mkx bin/metar//echo lambdabot: @metar $1
00:08:20 <lambdabot> ENVA 152250Z 33007KT 9999 BKN037 06/02 Q1016 RMK WIND 670FT 30007KT
00:10:36 <oerjan> @tell \oren\ <\oren\> ITS HAILING WTFOMGBBQ <-- i am not sure this is ideal for BBQ but whatever floats your boat.
00:11:18 <shachaf> oerjan: you're probably thinking of a barbecue, i.e. bbc
00:13:49 * oerjan waves the swatter in shachaf's general direction and mumbles something about elderberries -----###
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00:19:30 <shachaf> oerjan: à la <http://smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3764>, i'm sure
00:20:57 <oerjan> `learn A manometer is a device for testing real men by putting them under pressure.
00:21:03 <HackEgo> Learned 'manometer': A manometer is a device for testing real men by putting them under pressure.
00:21:27 <oerjan> shachaf: APPROXIMATELY
00:35:12 <fizzie> oerjan: / truncates negative numbers to the wrong direction. Consider the case where (numb << K) == -1 -- then the result should be -1 as well, but it's 0 for any K > 0.
00:35:40 <oerjan> fizzie: but it can't be - it's always divisible by 2^K
00:39:17 <fizzie> Yeah, I guess that'll work. Although I wonder if compilers are going to be clever enough to realize that. (They quite often seem to implement division by 2^K by shifting + extra adjustments for the rounding.)
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00:40:30 <fizzie> Huh. At least clang did. Fancy stuff.
00:42:19 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/ffTA for the dirt.
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00:44:46 * oerjan downvotes a reddit post solely because the link started playing audio automatically.
00:44:48 <fizzie> (The latter is essentially "t = x << 6; if (t < 0) t += 63; return t >> 6;")
00:45:05 <oerjan> sadly, it already had thousands of upvotes.
00:55:46 <oerjan> `le//rn OS/2//OS/2 was an OS, too.
00:56:03 <HackEgo> /hackenv/le//rn: line 1: wisdom/os/2: Not a directory
00:56:47 <shachaf> please don't spamckego like that twh
00:56:53 * oerjan swats b_jonas for spamming while he's trying to debug -----###
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00:59:41 <oerjan> shachaf: i say it's still overloaded.
01:00:58 <HackEgo> Os is the accusative plural of us. Also a municipality in Norway.
01:01:17 <oerjan> thought so. alas there cannot be both a file and a directory by the same name...
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02:36:56 <oerjan> b_jonas: sorry if i insulted you. it was meant as a joke.
02:37:25 <b_jonas> oerjan: I know. (I started a jevalbot instance to watch the channel, in case it wasn't obvious.)
02:38:03 <oerjan> oh. i didn't connect that.
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02:42:51 <b_jonas> `randomcard d.*(r.*(o.*m|m.*o)|o.*(r.*m|m.*r)|m.*(r.*o|o.*r)).*ka
02:42:58 <b_jonas> `random-card d.*(r.*(o.*m|m.*o)|o.*(r.*m|m.*r)|m.*(r.*o|o.*r)).*ka
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02:43:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: randomcard: not found
02:44:07 <HackEgo> Dromoka Captain \ 2W \ Creature -- Human Soldier \ 1/1 \ First strike \ Whenever Dromoka Captain attacks, bolster 1. (Choose a creature with the least toughness among creatures you control and put a +1/+1 counter on it.) \ DTK-U
02:44:14 <b_jonas> `random-card d.*(r.*(o.*m|m.*o)|o.*(r.*m|m.*r)|m.*(r.*o|o.*r)).*ka
02:44:37 <HackEgo> Dromoka Warrior \ 1W \ Creature -- Human Warrior \ 3/1 \ DTK-C
02:44:38 <HackEgo> Vampiric Fury \ 1R \ Instant \ Vampire creatures you control get +2/+0 and gain first strike until end of turn. \ ISD-C
02:45:05 <HackEgo> Lightkeeper of Emeria \ 3W \ Creature -- Angel \ 2/4 \ Multikicker {W} (You may pay an additional {W} any number of times as you cast this spell.) \ Flying \ When Lightkeeper of Emeria enters the battlefield, you gain 2 life for each time it was kicked. \ WWK-U, CMD-U
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03:26:08 <zzo38> What does "free ranging moons" means?
03:26:31 <shachaf> Left adjoint to forgetful ranging moons, presumably?
03:26:56 <zzo38> O, that's what it means. OK
03:36:00 <quintopia> more likely it means moons yanked from their orbits and turned into comets or dwarf planets or, even more free ranging, sent hurtling out into interstellar space
03:36:46 <zzo38> O, OK, but what is containing it anyways?
03:39:27 <zzo38> I was at Victoria today and also yesterday.
03:47:19 <shachaf> Were you ever in Bellingham?
03:48:21 <zzo38> (Possibly; I don't actually remember, but I do not think so)
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03:52:31 <shachaf> Were you ever in the United States?
03:53:53 <zzo38> Yes I was, but I do not know what name of places they are. The food is better in Canada though.
03:55:08 <shachaf> Are you sure it's not better in California?
03:56:48 <zzo38> I think I have been in California, and I think the food is better in Canada, even if it is the same restaurant chain.
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04:03:13 <zzo38> I forgot, but it is any of them I have tried.
04:04:24 <shachaf> Canada and California are very similar.
04:04:46 <zzo38> At least the first two letters (and also the last letter) is similar.
04:04:52 <shachaf> They both start with "ca" and in fact that's used as the standard abbreviaton.
04:04:53 <shachaf> They both have a place called Ontario.
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04:05:42 <zzo38> It is a different use for country code or state code though.
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04:37:06 <zzo38> Do not grow the grass by pulling it.
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06:17:21 <hppavilion[2]> Renku is just the Japanese version of Rap Battles, isn't it?
06:19:12 <HackEgo> danddreclist 78: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
06:19:48 <shachaf> lynn: should that file be adjusted hth
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06:40:40 <zzo38> I expect the next one would involve Drusila and Zeux Agem and so on.
06:47:17 <zzo38> What is this theorem called: If a category has at least two objects, and has n final objects, then the number of monads on that category is greater or equal to n+1.
06:58:18 <zzo38> :I was writing ideas for a specification of a new kind of computer I may make in future. One of the things is that the main processor and video processor both have exclusive access to video memory. There are also many others, including some hardware and software features I have seen nowhere before (although I have seen similar things).
07:00:10 <zzo38> I am writing it into the computer in the intention to be unpatentable. How exactly does this work anyways?
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07:12:52 <shachaf> zzo38: I don't think it has a name.
07:13:08 <shachaf> zzo38: Do people care about monads and terminal objects more than just up to isomorphism, anyway?
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07:15:23 <Cale> shachaf: hahaha, I can think of a weird case where it matters
07:16:57 <zzo38> Cale: What case do you think of?
07:19:05 <Cale> shachaf: Given a ring R and a small category C, you can define R[C] to be the free R-module whose basis is the set of arrows of C, and you can define a multiplication on it in a convolution-y way where you define the product of arrows which don't compose to be 0, and define it to be their composite when they do.
07:19:56 <Cale> and then if you take the indiscrete category on n objects, this is the ring of n-by-n matrices with coefficients in R
07:20:30 <Cale> So, you care about the distinction between your terminal objects in that case
07:21:13 <Cale> If it's the discrete category on n objects, this the same as R^n
07:21:39 <Cale> If it's the preorder category for the natural numbers, it's the polynomial ring R[x]
07:22:00 <shachaf> I've made a similar complaint about distinguishability for both indiscrete categories and indiscrete topologies.
07:22:43 <shachaf> The full subcategory of Top of discrete spaces is equivalent to Set. That makes sense, because discrete spaces behave like sets.
07:23:12 <shachaf> But the full subcategory of Top of indiscrete spaces is isomorphic to it. What's that all about?
07:23:31 <Cale> Well, any function between indiscrete spaces is continuous
07:23:50 <Cale> You're not taking equivalence classes of topologically indistinguishable maps
07:23:56 <shachaf> But it seems to me that an indiscrete space "ought" to behave in such a way that you can't distinguish its elements.
07:24:11 <shachaf> People talk about equivalence of categories rather than isomorphism of categories because of this issue.
07:24:25 <shachaf> Maybe I want the same thing for topological spaces.
07:24:44 <shachaf> Anyway you can make the same complaint about e.g. discrete/indiscrete categories, or discrete/indiscrete preorders.
07:24:56 <shachaf> Those are really all the same sort of thing.
07:26:54 <Cale> You can replace the arrows in Top with equivalence classes of arrows where if f and g are cts. maps X -> Y, then f ~ g whenever for all x in X, you have f(x) and g(x) are topologically indistinguishable in Y.
07:27:13 <Cale> I think that'll sort things out
07:27:40 <shachaf> Right. Does that category have a name? Why don't people use it instead of Top?
07:27:40 <Cale> Alternately, you can restrict Top to not have shitty topological spaces in it
07:28:09 <shachaf> Do homotopies relate to this? Since category equivalence is defined in terms of natural transformations.
07:28:14 <Cale> This is why people work with Hausdorff spaces instead
07:28:35 <shachaf> But lots of interesting spaces aren't Hausdorff.
07:28:56 <shachaf> Even the Sierpinski space isn't Hausdorff.
07:29:05 <shachaf> That space seems pretty fundamental to me.
07:29:13 <Cale> Where "lots", is "mostly Zariski topologies"
07:29:22 <Cale> and yeah, the computational synthetic topology stuff
07:30:19 <shachaf> Topology without the Sierpinski space seems like set theory without Bool.
07:30:22 <Cale> The Sierpinski space is usually more relevant as a counterexample for topologists, than as something which is used as the foundation to build more stuff.
07:30:36 <shachaf> But I'm probably not thinking about it from the typical topology perspective.
07:30:37 <Cale> At least, that's my impression
07:32:20 <Cale> Homotopy can't distinguish it from a point, so once you get to any of the algebraic topology stuff, it's not so relevant either.
07:33:09 <shachaf> Probably I should learn about algebraic topology.
07:35:17 <shachaf> Anyway what you said reminded me of a question I was asking the other day.
07:36:36 <shachaf> In convolution there are three operations, right? (f * g)(z) = \A_{i,j | b(i,j) = z}{ c(f(i)g(j)) }
07:37:18 <shachaf> So say A is integral, b is addition, c is multiplication.
07:37:40 <shachaf> People vary all three of those, don't they?
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07:37:50 <shachaf> Anyway, is there a case where c is something like composition in a category?
07:38:01 <Cale> I described that a moment ago
07:38:16 <shachaf> Well, you were just assigning 0 where the composition doesn't exist.
07:38:17 <Cale> That's... literally how we began this discussion
07:38:24 <shachaf> Well, I guess that has the same effect.
07:38:30 <Cale> yeah, and the composite otherwise :)
07:38:41 <Cale> It's basically just "avoid the things you can't compose"
07:39:05 <shachaf> OK, then you answered my question from last week, rather than just reminded me of it.
07:39:18 <shachaf> I'd rather say that you don't sum over those things in the first than that the sum is 0, but whatever.
07:39:27 <Cale> There's a different way to do it too
07:39:39 <shachaf> The other question I asked was what requirements people usually put on b.
07:39:53 -!- hppavilion[2] has set topic: The international hub of solid matrices | Contains only freely-mooned ranges | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | The overdone city meme has RISEN from its burial place in Truth or Consequences (not Hot Springs) in search of BRAINS.
07:40:17 <shachaf> Often people require it to be a group, which is way too much, of course (you don't need inverses).
07:40:34 <shachaf> But can it be a non-associative operation? I saw something that at least resembled a convolution with a non-associative operation.
07:40:35 <Cale> R[[C]] is similar, but we require C to be a small category with finite factorisation, i.e. for any f: A -> C, there exist finitely many pairs of arrows g: B -> C and h: A -> B such that f = g . h
07:40:55 <Cale> and then instead of just taking the free R-module on the arrows, we can take all functions Arr(C) -> R
07:40:56 -!- shachaf has set topic: The international hub of solidity matrices | Contains only freely-mooned ranges | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
07:41:11 <Cale> and the convolution still works out because there are only finitely many ways to factor any given arrow
07:41:24 <Cale> So we can still take the sum
07:41:41 <Cale> This is a generalisation of Gian-Carlo Rota's incidence algebras
07:42:04 <Cale> (where you get incidence algebras when the category is a preorder category)
07:42:47 <Cale> and now if you take C to be the preorder category on the naturals, you get the power series ring R[[X]]
07:43:18 <shachaf> You mean the totally ordered preorder category?
07:43:34 <Cale> The preorder category for omega
07:43:49 <Cale> (first infinite ordinal)
07:45:09 <shachaf> Hmm, this incidence algebra convolution looks unusual.
07:45:45 <shachaf> (f * g)(a,b) = \Sum_{a ≤ x ≤ b} { f(a,x)g(x,b) }
07:47:02 <shachaf> When you do convolutions of two discrete sequences, you get something that operates over the antidiagonals, right?
07:53:49 <Cale> Yeah, if I understand what you mean correctly, you get something like polynomials
07:54:06 <Cale> or power series
07:54:40 <shachaf> I mean, say you have [a,b,c] [d,e,f]
07:55:07 <shachaf> You can make the multiplication table
07:55:21 <shachaf> And you have the antidiagonals [ad] [ae,bd] [af,be,cf] etc.
07:55:44 <shachaf> Is that something like polynomials?
07:55:45 <Cale> If you pick [a,b,c] = [d,e,f] = [0,1,2]
07:55:51 <Cale> and multiplication to be addition
07:56:37 <Cale> x^n * x^m = x^(n+m)
07:58:01 <shachaf> Someone was talking about the convolution where A is min and b/c are addition.
07:58:42 <Cale> sounds tropical
07:59:30 <Cale> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_geometry
08:00:09 <shachaf> Anyway, if you pick b=(-), you get diagonals instead of antidiagonals.
08:01:33 <shachaf> Cale: That must be why the person who asked this question is going to Hawaii.
08:03:18 <shachaf> So is convolution with (-) still convolution? What properties should the three different operators satisfy?
08:03:20 <Cale> "The adjective tropical in this context was coined by French mathematicians in honor of the Hungarian-born Brazilian mathematician Imre Simon, who wrote on the field."
08:03:54 <shachaf> Presumably you want c to be associative, otherwise you'd end up with something strange.
08:05:38 <Cale> Well, perhaps we could compromise, and make it x^a x^b = (1/2) (x^(a-b) + x^(b-a))
08:05:47 <shachaf> Well, I was actually thinking about A when I said that, so that doesn't make sense anyway.
08:06:36 <shachaf> Day convolution also shows some extra structure that you don't see in typical convolution.
08:06:39 <Cale> (with the exponentiation being a little inappropriate now)
08:07:31 <shachaf> Where you have something like \(Co)End { f(x)g(y)Hom(xy,-) }
08:08:36 <Cale> Now, for all these wildly different kinds of convolution, we need a Fourier theory
08:09:20 <shachaf> That's one of those things I never learned much about that I really should.
08:11:37 <Cale> If f and g are integrable functions with Fourier transforms F and G respectively, and the convolution f * g is defined by (f * g)(x) = integral over R of f(t) g(x - t) dt
08:12:15 <Cale> Then the Fourier transform of f * g is given by the pointwise product F G
08:12:45 <Cale> i.e. the Fourier transform turns convolution into multiplication
08:13:00 <shachaf> Also the Dirac delta is apparently the identity for convolution. What does that mean in all these contexts?
08:14:02 <Cale> Well, that's because (f * delta)(x) = integral over R of f(t) delta(x-t) dt = f(x) pretty much by definition of Dirac delta.
08:14:46 <shachaf> I guess there's a better-behaved equivalent in discrete contexts.
08:15:31 <Cale> Oh, right, I missed your actual question
08:15:39 <Cale> which is what's the analogous thing in the other contexts
08:16:20 <Cale> Though, Dirac delta is even only a thing in the original context if you pretty much go out of your way to force it to be
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11:53:48 <lambdabot> CYUL 161000Z 27018G25KT 15SM FEW025 OVC050 03/M03 A2978 RMK SC2SC6 SLP087
11:53:52 <lambdabot> ENVA 161020Z 28005KT 9999 SCT043 09/01 Q1013 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 31004KT
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12:00:28 <lambdabot> EGLL 161050Z AUTO 26006KT 200V290 9999 BKN033 14/06 Q1021 NOSIG
12:10:31 <HackEgo> Kjeldoran Skyknight \ 2W \ Creature -- Human Knight \ 1/1 \ Flying; first strike; banding (Any creatures with banding, and up to one without, can attack in a band. Bands are blocked as a group. If any creatures with banding you control are blocking or being blocked by a creature, you divide that creature's combat damage, not its controller, among a
12:10:43 <HackEgo> Cephalid Inkshrouder \ 2U \ Creature -- Cephalid \ 2/1 \ Discard a card: Cephalid Inkshrouder gains shroud until end of turn and can't be blocked this turn. (A creature with shroud can't be the target of spells or abilities.) \ JUD-U
12:10:50 <b_jonas> why doesn't \Bshro match that?
12:11:25 <HackEgo> Skyshroud Sentinel \ 2G \ Creature -- Elf \ 1/1 \ When Skyshroud Sentinel enters the battlefield, you may search your library for up to three cards named Skyshroud Sentinel, reveal them, and put them into your hand. If you do, shuffle your library. \ NE-C
12:11:38 <HackEgo> Tuknir Deathlock \ RRGG \ Legendary Creature -- Human Wizard \ 2/2 \ Flying \ {R}{G}, {T}: Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn. \ LE-R, ME3-U
12:11:41 <b_jonas> maybe it timed out or got killed or something
12:11:56 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec perl -e'open$I,"<","share/mtg/allsets.txt"or die$!;$/=""; @c=grep{/(?mi:$ARGV[0])/}<$I>; print $c[rand(@c)];' "$1"
12:13:12 <b_jonas> ``` perl -pe 's/( \$c[rand(\@c)])/($1||"No card found.")/' bin/random-card
12:13:14 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec perl -e'open$I,"<","share/mtg/allsets.txt"or die$!;$/=""; @c=grep{/(?mi:$ARGV[0])/}<$I>; print $c[rand(@c)];' "$1"
12:13:38 <b_jonas> ``` perl -pe 's/( \$c\[rand(\@c)])/($1||"No card found.")/' bin/random-card
12:13:40 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec perl -e'open$I,"<","share/mtg/allsets.txt"or die$!;$/=""; @c=grep{/(?mi:$ARGV[0])/}<$I>; print $c[rand(@c)];' "$1"
12:13:48 <b_jonas> ``` perl -pe 's/( \$c\[rand\(\@c\)])/($1||"No card found.")/' bin/random-card
12:13:50 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec perl -e'open$I,"<","share/mtg/allsets.txt"or die$!;$/=""; @c=grep{/(?mi:$ARGV[0])/}<$I>; print( $c[rand(@c)]||"No card found.");' "$1"
12:13:57 <b_jonas> ``` perl -pe 's/ (\$c\[rand\(\@c\)])/($1||"No card found.")/' bin/random-card
12:13:59 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec perl -e'open$I,"<","share/mtg/allsets.txt"or die$!;$/=""; @c=grep{/(?mi:$ARGV[0])/}<$I>; print($c[rand(@c)]||"No card found.");' "$1"
12:14:06 <b_jonas> ``` perl -pi e 's/ (\$c\[rand\(\@c\)])/($1 || "No card found.")/' bin/random-card
12:14:08 <HackEgo> Can't open perl script "e": No such file or directory
12:14:13 <b_jonas> ``` perl -pi -e 's/ (\$c\[rand\(\@c\)])/($1 || "No card found.")/' bin/random-card
12:14:26 <HackEgo> Tuknir Deathlock \ RRGG \ Legendary Creature -- Human Wizard \ 2/2 \ Flying \ {R}{G}, {T}: Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn. \ LE-R, ME3-U
12:14:33 <HackEgo> Sekki, Seasons' Guide \ 5GGG \ Legendary Creature -- Spirit \ 0/0 \ Sekki, Seasons' Guide enters the battlefield with eight +1/+1 counters on it. \ If damage would be dealt to Sekki, prevent that damage, remove that many +1/+1 counters from Sekki, and put that many 1/1 colorless Spirit creature tokens onto the battlefield. \ Sacrifice eight Spirits
12:14:39 <HackEgo> Earthshaker \ 4RR \ Creature -- Spirit \ 4/5 \ Whenever you cast a Spirit or Arcane spell, Earthshaker deals 2 damage to each creature without flying. \ CHK-U
12:15:06 <b_jonas> now if it prints "No output." then something went wrong
12:15:33 <HackEgo> Lavastep Raider \ R \ Creature -- Goblin Warrior \ 1/2 \ {2}{R}: Lavastep Raider gets +2/+0 until end of turn. \ BFZ-C
12:15:46 <HackEgo> Lava Spike \ R \ Sorcery -- Arcane \ Lava Spike deals 3 damage to target player. \ CHK-C, MMA-C
12:15:54 <boily> `random-card spook
12:16:15 <boily> `random-card cuttlefish
12:18:52 <HackEgo> Stonehorn Chanter \ 5W \ Creature -- Rhino Cleric \ 4/4 \ {5}{W}: Stonehorn Chanter gains vigilance and lifelink until end of turn. (Attacking doesn't cause it to tap. Damage dealt by it also causes you to gain that much life.) \ M14-U
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13:39:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47040&oldid=46982 * M654 * (+16)
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13:54:22 <HackEgo> copumpkin//copumpkin is categorically incapable of being president.
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13:59:52 <int-e> president of anything at all?
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14:18:02 <Taneb> I don't think weed generally causes people to dance
14:19:04 * oerjan wouldn't know one way or the other
14:19:43 <HackEgo> 628) <itidus22> if the halting problem was solved, as a placebo.. would it benefit people?
14:19:45 <HackEgo> 729) <oklopol> nortti: fizzie has done some impressive stuff in befunge, which is essentially the two-dimensional version of finnish politics.
14:19:45 <HackEgo> 279) <oklopol> i actually do like sucking
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14:37:22 <oerjan> *sigh* heavy beats penetrating the building.
14:37:52 <oerjan> i expected a party today but had hoped it'd not get this bad this early.
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14:38:58 <oerjan> (it's 3:38 in the afternoon.)
14:40:26 <b_jonas> `? interactive toxic waste exhibit
14:40:27 <oerjan> just the beats, mind you. i cannot hear the actual _tunes_. the building only lets through the sounds it know i hate tdnh
14:40:30 <HackEgo> interactive toxic waste exhibit? ¯\(°_o)/¯
14:40:56 <oerjan> throw in some radioactivity.
14:40:58 <b_jonas> oerjan: http://russell2.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/comic/millie/comic?n=20070302 and following strip
14:42:30 <oerjan> do you have a full mirror
14:42:39 <oerjan> (clicking next worked)
14:42:55 <b_jonas> oerjan: http://russell2.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/comic/millie/index
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14:49:52 <HackEgo> ozy and millie? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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15:07:53 <int-e> oh I actually read that to the end...
15:09:20 <b_jonas> int-e: good. I like that comic strip.
15:09:31 <b_jonas> (I don't put up mirrors of just anything. O&M is great.)
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15:11:46 <b_jonas> The direct links to images on the original site from my mirror are broken though, because they changed the url. Let me try to fix that.
15:19:46 <b_jonas> I should also figure out what to do with the House Rules site, which has been down for a while. Let me check if some pages of it are on archive.org
15:22:03 <b_jonas> yup, https://web.archive.org/web/20120904022248/http://houserules.org.uk/index.php?page=archive&date=19980429
15:22:20 <b_jonas> I'll have to change the House Rules links to archive.org then
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15:30:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CUTLASS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47041&oldid=37058 * 160.44.230.213 * (-11) Updated to reflect E.ON organisational changes.
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15:36:14 <oerjan> i heard fizzie emailed you
15:36:47 <alandipert> going to attempt transferring the domain to him
15:37:07 <oerjan> it's a delicate operation
15:37:23 <oerjan> i think he's idle at the moment.
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16:28:58 <b_jonas> In http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1461 , Marten says to Faye and Hannelore “You to befriended me via bullying and stalking respectively.” I know Faye stalked Marten near the start of the comic, when Faye burned down her house them moved in with Marten then persuaded Marten to move to a larger place,
16:29:09 <b_jonas> but what's he trying to say about Marigold? I don't recall any of that.
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17:14:48 <HackEgo> Replenish \ 3W \ Sorcery \ Return all enchantment cards from your graveyard to the battlefield. (Auras with nothing to enchant remain in your graveyard.) \ UD-R
17:14:48 <HackEgo> Duplicant \ 6 \ Artifact Creature -- Shapeshifter \ 2/4 \ Imprint -- When Duplicant enters the battlefield, you may exile target nontoken creature. \ As long as a card exiled with Duplicant is a creature card, Duplicant has the power, toughness, and creature types of the last creature card exiled with Duplicant. It's still a Shapeshifter. \ MRD-R,
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17:32:07 <b_jonas> sadly, web.archive.org doesn't seem to have archived most of the Ozy and Millie House Rules strips
17:33:10 <b_jonas> has #1036 been olisted yet?
17:33:32 <shachaf> please see logs in the topic
17:33:41 <shachaf> but now i'm going to be double-pinged :'(
17:33:53 <HackEgo> olist 1036: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
17:34:05 <b_jonas> shachaf: sadly the logs don't seem to be up to date
17:34:17 <b_jonas> let me check the other logs
17:35:27 <b_jonas> hmm, where had I heared that name before?
17:36:04 <b_jonas> `random-card queen of the fae
17:36:06 <HackEgo> Oona, Queen of the Fae \ 3(u/b)(u/b)(u/b) \ Legendary Creature -- Faerie Wizard \ 5/5 \ Flying \ {X}{(u/b)}: Choose a color. Target opponent exiles the top X cards of his or her library. For each card of the chosen color exiled this way, put a 1/1 blue and black Faerie Rogue creature token with flying onto the battlefield. \ SHM-R, MMA-R, V11-M
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17:48:45 <int-e> . o O ( a bugbear is a teddy bear that you can explain your bugs to. )
17:49:14 <b_jonas> `learn A bugbear is a teddy bear that you can explain your bugs to.
17:49:22 <HackEgo> Learned 'bugbear': A bugbear is a teddy bear that you can explain your bugs to.
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18:33:52 <oren> except that ca
18:34:41 <oren> canada is cold and california is a horrible burning desert hellscape
18:35:09 <oren> with a water table below sea level
18:35:47 <oren> whereas canada has huge amounts[of fresh water
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18:39:47 <gamemanj> ...burning desert hellscape doesn't sound like a good place to be
18:40:05 <lambdabot> KOAK 161653Z 20003KT 10SM FEW012 16/11 A3000 RMK AO2 SLP160 T01610106
18:40:10 <lambdabot> CYYZ 161700Z 27010G24KT 210V300 15SM FEW045 FEW095 SCT230 14/03 A3004 RMK CU1AC2CI1 CU TR SLP179
18:40:20 <gamemanj> I hope their implementation of INhs is up to spec... though spec version 2006, not spec version 2016...
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18:56:37 <lambdabot> KATL 161752Z 12008KT 10SM FEW080 SCT150 BKN250 22/04 A3018 RMK AO2 SLP216 T02220044 10228 20139 58011
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19:33:38 <shachaf> Cale: Are there names for the three different operations of convolutions?
19:33:45 <shachaf> Or a more general way to talk about them or something?
19:34:28 <Cale> I don't really know if anyone's attempted to really try to abstract over what's going on there -- at least, any more than the category algebra definition.
19:35:25 <coppro> Cale: I'm starting to understand your advice about baking in the monad stack
19:35:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cryptoleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47042&oldid=46449 * Ditihala * (+30) /* External Resources */
19:36:19 <Cale> shachaf: I had the thought the other night that perhaps if our category had additional structure, we could integrate over the choices of factorisations.
19:37:10 <coppro> since, for instance, I want to be able to tack on additional structure sometimes (a la Reader) but don't want to risk confusing things more
19:37:25 <Cale> coppro: The fact that I never use the word "stack" in reference to monads should tell you something about the way I think about it :)
19:38:20 <shachaf> Cale is giving advice about baking in the monad stack?
19:38:33 <shachaf> That sounds like something Eugenia Cheng would do.
19:38:55 <Cale> I think he's referring to my advice to always newtype
19:39:11 <Cale> and hide the fact that you're using monad transformers to implement whatever it is you're implementing
19:39:38 <coppro> I think I may still use the monad classes, to get standard combinators
19:40:04 <coppro> but I'm definitely seeing the value in baking things together
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20:03:45 <zzo38> What is "baking in the monad stack"?
20:04:19 <shachaf> i,i ybden is now known as molum
20:04:48 <ybden> shachaf: That's actually what my nick was derived from
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20:05:24 <coppro> zzo38: using a newtype or the like to hide your monad transformer stack
20:05:33 <molum> shachaf: thanks for the other nick :)
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20:30:29 <shachaf> molybdenum? i 'ardly know 'em!
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20:58:01 <int-e> @unpl (\a b -> b a) (\b -> b) u
20:59:00 <int-e> yay, variable capture.
20:59:17 <int-e> (it's been reported: https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/issues/142 )
20:59:30 <shachaf> spot of the alpha conversion, governor?
20:59:41 <shachaf> Actually you don't need alpha conversion for this case.
20:59:49 <int-e> @unpl (\a a -> a) b
20:59:50 <shachaf> But you need it for more complicated cases.
20:59:55 <int-e> I guess that's the simplest.
21:00:12 <shachaf> Well, that's just an error.
21:00:46 <int-e> > (\a -> \a -> a) 0 0
21:01:03 <shachaf> are you testing it with 0 and 0 to be confusing on purpose hth
21:01:05 <int-e> but as far as @unpl is concerned that makes no difference.
21:05:27 <shachaf> What was the case where alpha conversion is really necessary?
21:06:02 <b_jonas> shachaf: no, that's (\a -> \a -> a) a b
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21:06:44 <b_jonas> I once wrote a lambda expression interpreter that got that exact thing wrong, so the inner binding couldn't successfully shadow the outer binding, and it used the outer binding
21:07:16 <shachaf> The a a thing was a joke, modeled after int-e's joke.
21:07:34 <gamemanj> hey, what's a good BrainFuck program that isn't Lost Kingdom as a good test for a BrainFuck interpreter?
21:07:59 <shachaf> b_jonas: But you don't actually need alpha conversion for that, do you?
21:08:15 <gamemanj> (To be more precise, one that isn't on the order of several MiB and uses tons of cycles... it's not a fast interpreter)
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21:09:33 <shachaf> <dolio> shachaf: \x -> (\f x -> f) (\y -> x) ~> \x -> (\x -> \y -> x)
21:09:35 <int-e> there's something simpler, but for example, (\f x. f (f (f (f x)))) (\a y z. a (y z)) has (\x y z z1 z2 z3. x (y z z1 z2 z3)) as its normal form.
21:09:40 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
21:10:00 <int-e> which has more bound variables then you started out with.
21:10:25 <shachaf> dolio's example is pretty simple.
21:11:21 <int-e> dolio's is not fully named apart.
21:11:47 <int-e> there are two bound variables called 'x' in there.
21:12:30 <int-e> (I'm looking for something stronger where doing alpha only up front doesn't work)
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21:21:11 <b_jonas> shachaf: no, you just need to keep the bindings in order, appending new bindings to the start of the binding list, and look up the first binding to a given name every time.
21:21:41 <shachaf> Aren't the two lines posted above counterexamples to that?
21:23:58 <HackEgo> [U+2019 RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK]
21:29:34 <int-e> @unpl (\c -> c c) (\a b -> b (a b))
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21:31:25 <shachaf> @pl (\c -> c c) (\a b -> b (a b))
21:31:33 <gamemanj> given no suggestions... this is really slow and mostly untested, but it should interpret the code correctly:
21:31:34 <lambdabot> (\ f -> return ((\ a -> a) f ((\ m h -> (m >>= \ i -> return ((\ b -> b) h i)) h) f)) f)
21:31:35 <gamemanj> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21184720/bp-brainfuck-jonripleylostkng.BytePusher
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21:33:12 <gamemanj> expect weirdness and perhaps a "Yield Failure" - that means I made the interpreter too fast.
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21:53:07 <int-e> hmm no fizzie today?
21:53:41 <int-e> (this was a ping in disguise)
21:54:20 <int-e> that woyld be too subtle for me
21:54:24 <fungot> b_jonas: r5rs is the de facto standard
21:54:48 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
21:54:56 <fungot> Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages)
21:55:32 <fungot> shachaf: 02:15, june 12, 2007.. 76.184.221.233 ( talk block) ( removed dollar sign wikilinks)
21:55:59 <shachaf> fungot: don't you quote commit logs at me
21:55:59 <fungot> shachaf: then its done, once these steps are completed the article is fnord erroneous and needs to be added to the article quality at all.
21:56:05 <olsner> fungot: again with less dates and numbers?
21:56:05 <fungot> olsner: ' ' ' does this imply someone removed an innocuous link to a site called ' fnord'"
21:56:15 <olsner> fungot: I think it does!
21:56:15 <fungot> olsner: otherwise send this article to its fate. the moment he agreed to delete her from his mind. i think there is a major cabinet portfolio but then we're told that peters is outside cabinet. how are those reconciled? i see there is grounds for coverage for this controversy fnord said fnord
21:56:39 <fungot> gamemanj: ' ' ' fnord fnord'" is being used under wikipedia:fair usefair use but there is
21:57:05 <gamemanj> where does fnord come into wikipedia talk pages
21:57:12 <olsner> it just fnords right in there
21:57:23 <HackEgo> 1136) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
21:57:24 <shachaf> gamemanj: It's all over the place.
21:57:54 <olsner> the fnords could also be [REDACTED]
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22:05:28 <int-e> @unpl f a = \a -> a
22:06:07 <int-e> @unpl \a -> \a -> a
22:06:30 <int-e> oh this is just golden.
22:06:34 <int-e> "-- TODO: avoid captures while substituting"
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22:06:48 <int-e> prooftechnique: yes but that's besides the point.
22:07:05 <int-e> prooftechnique: the point is that both inputs are legal, and both outputs are illegal in Haskell
22:08:54 <nortti> at what point in computational power hierarchy does it become possible to construct an "universal X-machine"
22:09:25 <nortti> I mean, a machine of computational power X able to be emulate any other machine of the class given right input
22:10:18 <nortti> 1-stack PDA not possible, and turing machine possible, but say is it possible to construct "universal primitive recursive function"
22:13:03 <b_jonas> nortti: I don't think you can do that. a primitive recursive function is always time bound by some knuth arrow function of its input size, with a fixed number of arrows, so if you take any one, then it can't emulate primitive recursive functions with a higher number of knuth arrows.
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22:15:28 <b_jonas> nortti: does that make sense?
22:16:58 <int-e> This code is evil... it takes a shortcut: Rather than traversing the AST and keeping track of free names, it relies on a Generic instance and uses "everywhere" to substitute variables by a new expression.
22:17:50 <nortti> b_jonas: yeah. was just thinking that as primitive recursive's time is limited by input, if you could encode in the input how much time it'd need, but I guess it cannot work
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22:20:04 <int-e> @unpl \a -> b (\c -> b) a
22:20:08 <int-e> @unpl \a -> b (\a -> b) a
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22:47:32 <fizzie> @tell gamemanj <spoilers> rare words have been pruned from some models, and in those cases fungot renders OOV words as 'fnord' </spoilers>
22:47:32 <fungot> fizzie: please go to fnord image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with wp:fufair use.
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22:47:53 <fizzie> Also that thing's gone through the laziest wiki markup removal in the word.
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22:49:10 <fizzie> "wp:fufair use" comes from [[WP:FU|fair use]] or some-such.
22:49:43 <boily> fiziello. what's a wp:fu?
22:49:50 <fizzie> (And similarly for the earlier "wikipedia:fair usefair use".
22:49:58 <fizzie> boily: See recent fungot babbling.
22:49:58 <fungot> fizzie: a few years before there really is any version of the bible", thomas nelson publishers ( nashville, fnord,
22:50:14 * boily consults the fungot
22:50:14 <fungot> boily: ' ' ' fnord'" is being used on this article.
22:50:41 <fungot> olsner: i could not give a fnord if na was gay. in other words, it doesn't add much relevance to the rest of the article mentions a " cliff". span style="border: 1px solid fnord style="background: fnord 20:37, 29 november 2007 ( utc)
22:51:45 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
22:52:04 <fizzie> Let's do something different, the wp style makes me just sad about how lazy I've been.
22:52:15 <fizzie> Although I don't think this one was a particularly good one either.
22:53:14 <fungot> olsner: at the time of impact, a large, white structure that looked like a blue one too which was way more awesome shades in the style his bro dropped. she knows it. she's a huge culprit was. you can still be a way that it shakes is the same. trolls think fashion is stupid. stop doing nothing but wondering what could it be the same as the word " crazy"
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23:18:57 <int-e> @unpl \join -> join
23:28:39 <int-e> sorry for yelling, but this is painful.
23:31:23 <int-e> and... there's a TODO for that as well: "-- TODO: more generally correct would be to not substitute any variable which is bound by a pattern"
23:39:21 <boily> there's nothing permanenter than a temporary thing hth
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00:57:29 <prooftechnique> A TODO is like a check you write yourself for a million dollars. It'd be great if it went through one day, but they tend to just bounce until you lose hope and start writing Java
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01:14:34 <Guest60822> Hello, I had a few questions about the few questions about thue
01:18:56 <fizzie> (Just go ahead and ask, although I don't think resident Thue experts are present at the moment.)
01:25:42 <Phantom_Hoover> someone thought this was a good way of implementing a string split
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01:28:10 <fizzie> Calling strtok on a string literal is one of the constantly recurring ##c topics.
01:29:57 <fizzie> `runc #include <string.h> \n int main(void) { strtok("foo bar", " "); }
01:30:07 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/runc: line 3: 300 Segmentation fault $t
01:30:13 <shachaf> fizzie: I worked on a program that used strtok to parse argv.
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01:30:37 <shachaf> It was pretty confusing to look at it in the process list.
01:31:19 <fizzie> That rings a bell, probably seen it happen as well.
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01:33:10 <shachaf> strtok ought to use self-modifying code.
01:33:52 <shachaf> And instead of strtok_r, you should be required to copy the code of strtok into a new writable executable buffer.
01:34:06 <shachaf> That way you can keep the same API.
01:36:19 <fizzie> The C99 rationale says strsep was rejected because "it's easy enough for a user to provide this functionality, and it is unclear that an implementor can do a substantially better job; so, there was not sufficient support for adding this feature."
01:36:31 <fizzie> (strsep also modifies the string, but at least it uses a strtok_r-style scheme for keeping the state in the caller.)
01:37:44 <fizzie> (Well, arguably even a more reasonable one, since it avoids that nonsense about passing NULL as the first argument.)
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02:08:33 <menwithHill> Why is "polynomial time" named as such in computer science?
02:09:29 <oerjan> because the time used is bounded by a polynomial in the input size.
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02:13:56 <shachaf> oerjan: but why isn't it called "monomial time"
02:13:56 <menwithHill> oerjan: and NP being when there is no final halting of the computations?
02:14:49 <pikhq> I really wish that when C11 hit they also added the POSIX-only thread safe versions of functions (such as strtok_r).
02:14:53 <oerjan> menwithHill: no, the N in NP is for "nondeterministic"
02:15:33 <shachaf> i,i which means it's bounded by a nondeterministic polynomial
02:15:40 <pikhq> But nooo, they only added something with the same functionality as strerror_r, only more painful to use.
02:15:44 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
02:17:24 <fizzie> pikhq: strtok_s is in C11, right?
02:17:59 <pikhq> Oh, right, they did add that too.
02:18:27 <pikhq> It's still basically strtok_r only less convenient.
02:19:02 <pikhq> Gah, the *_s functions. Functions only implemented (in a non-conformant way) by a vendor that can't be bothered to implement C99, but managed to push features in C11 anyways.
02:19:38 <shachaf> Well, C99 is 9 times as hard to implement as C11.
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02:32:46 <Cale> menwithHill: NP is the class of decision problems which are solvable in an amount of time bounded by a polynomial in the input size, on a nondeterministic Turing machine -- which is like an ordinary Turing machine, except that you can have multiple transitions for the same initial condition, and the machine takes both paths simultaneously (which means that you can have an exponential blowup in the number of states that the machine/tap
02:32:46 <Cale> e is presently in).
02:33:27 <Cale> Basically Turing machines with unbounded parallel forking
02:33:54 <shachaf> Why do people take nondeterministic machines as a primitive?
02:34:21 <shachaf> I don't exactly have anything against them, but they seem like a bit of an odd and arbitrary construction.
02:37:08 <Cale> shachaf: At this point it's got to be mainly that there are interesting difficult problems to be solved.
02:37:32 <Cale> P vs. NP is almost motivation enough :)
02:37:43 <menwithHill> nondet. machine seems to mean a machine with unlimited power of computation
02:38:16 <shachaf> Maybe I should think of it as "always taking the right path" rather than "taking all paths".
02:38:20 <lifthrasiir> it can do the exactly same kind of computation, only the performance differs
02:39:18 <Cale> shachaf: Another way to look at it is that NP is the class of decision problems for which a polynomial-length certificate can be constructed such that given that certificate, the solution to the problem can be checked in polynomial time.
02:39:58 <lifthrasiir> I... I think I cannot understand what does it mean
02:42:46 <fizzie> Cale: That's fine, but then people start asking about the "N".
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09:28:10 <HackEgo> Spellgorger Barbarian \ 3R \ Creature -- Human Nightmare Barbarian \ 3/1 \ When Spellgorger Barbarian enters the battlefield, discard a card at random. \ When Spellgorger Barbarian leaves the battlefield, draw a card. \ JUD-C
09:28:11 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> Why do people take nondeterministic machines as a primitive?" => probably at the influence of Chomsky? or did it start before him?
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11:36:49 <boily> fungot: do you moon ranges? do you even have buttocks to moon ranges with?
11:36:49 <fungot> boily: so this is the same. trolls think fashion is stupid. stop doing nothing but wondering what could it be the same but different too m4ny h1ghly just1f1abl3 4nd w3ll d3s3rv3d punch3s w1ll b3 thrown 1n du3 t1m3
11:37:11 <boily> fungot: don't punch me. it's uncouth hth
11:37:11 <fungot> boily: in a good way though you are not really sure that we will meet again! not even a gulli8le dope like you.
11:37:40 <fungot> boily: but that jackass won't shut up and stop the thief in the throes of an unraveling alibi. " the massacre of syrs gnelph was not as written a message you got, my brother, and we just keep the safe or tub handy or the other, to function as the better half. the two partners in a strong pale relationship will serve to balance and complement each other's, since there is no quadrant which naturally conceals two licorice scotty d
11:37:52 * boily mapoles the fungot
11:37:52 <fungot> boily: it is a hate so pure and... pumpkin seeds?. perhaps to leave that crap in the shitty scifi novels where his favorite movies. he would just go on and on about it.
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12:11:37 <fizzie> fungot: *You* just go on and on about it.
12:11:37 <fungot> fizzie: for a while it was frustrating. wasn't nothin but misfortune...
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12:23:53 <HackEgo> he chilline for one out of the apple mashed. \ Sprinkle the parsley and flour and set aside. Fry the chops to a \ boil, and simmer for about 30 minutes, or until the mixture is \ coated and all the beef dispalles are done. \ \ 2. In a large bowl mix beans, and salt in skillet over medium high heat, inchen and \ until soft comes out. Reduce t
12:24:29 <HackEgo> Chopped onions; chopped \ 1 ts Salt and pepper \ 1 ts Salt \ 1/3 c Water \ 3/4 c Confectioners shortening \ 2 tb Chopped fresh cilantro \ 1 ts Salt \ 1/4 ts Ground cumin \ 1/2 ts Dijon; softened \ \ Mix ingredients in a large cookie sheet, about 3 minutes. Sprinkle \ peaches and parsley. \ \ Per serving: 207 mg chol cooled, 15 grams
12:24:29 <HackEgo> Patriarch's Desire \ 3B \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant creature \ Enchanted creature gets +2/-2. \ Threshold -- Enchanted creature gets an additional +2/-2 as long as seven or more cards are in your graveyard. \ OD-C
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14:15:25 <fizzie> oerjan: int-e: Just to keep you up to date on current news, we've migratated the domain over, and it's been renewed for a year as well.
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14:27:45 <mroman> what happens when you have a system that keeps "data" alive by just re-transmitting it
14:27:50 <mroman> but never storing the whole data
14:28:21 <Taneb> Like delay line memory?
14:28:29 <mroman> There are nodes in the internet, these nodes connect to other nodes. Everything a node receives, it just broadcasts it to the other nodes
14:28:57 <mroman> you read like I don't know 4MB chunks of data or something like that
14:29:06 <mroman> then re-transmit it to other nodes
14:29:13 <mroman> not storing what you have transmitted so far.
14:30:02 <mroman> it would be interesting how much data you can store on the "line"
14:30:12 <mroman> It takes some time for data to arrive at the other endpoint.
14:30:30 <mroman> it'd probably work with just two nodes
14:30:37 <mroman> you send data, the other one sends it back
14:31:01 <mroman> the amount of data you can send before you receive the first byte back should be the amount of bytes you can store "in the interweb"
14:33:11 <izabera> how do you find what you're looking for?
14:33:42 <mroman> that's another issue :D
14:33:59 <mroman> but you could tag streams somehow
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14:34:10 <mroman> like the first few bytes are the id of the datastream
14:34:20 <mroman> you just listen on the network until you find what you need then start logging the traffic
14:34:34 <mroman> but you can hardly delete anything.
14:36:41 <mroman> well if you broadcast to n-nodes each
14:36:46 <mroman> then that won't do the trick :)
14:37:24 <izabera> you can't broadcast to more nodes
14:39:00 <mroman> since you can tag streams you can prevent that you re-broadcast the same thing more than once at the same time
14:39:25 <mroman> if you're already broadcasting stream N, and some node connects to you and broadcasts stream N you can deny that request
14:40:18 <mroman> there might be cases where you receive more than you can broadcast
14:40:46 <mroman> which should give congestion signals back to the nodes somehow
14:40:55 <mroman> causing them to send less data
14:41:10 <mroman> either way if all the protocols work correctly together there should be an equilibrium of some sort?
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14:57:37 <fizzie> It sounds like what you get when you're designing a normal distributed file system, but flip a minus sign for the "minimize bandwidth use" term in the cost function your design is trying to optimize.
15:01:04 <fizzie> I don't think you could really make things work so smoothly that you'd have all the data in "the wire" without being ready to either buffer it at the nodes or lose it, because the "storage capacity" of the connection will clearly fluctuate a lot.
15:02:45 <mroman> basically as soon as you have more data than you can send before receiving the first thing you've sent again you need to buffer it somewhere
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15:03:15 <fizzie> It all sounds vaguely familiar, but I seem to be finding only boring reasonable pages when looking up what I'm vaguely recalling.
15:03:24 <mroman> but the idea as that some of the data is buffered by routers and network equipment of ISPs
15:03:31 <fizzie> On cloud storage and organizing cables on your desk and such.
15:03:55 <mroman> of course, once they notice what you're doing they'll pretty much cancel your subscription :D
15:04:28 <mroman> anyway, i'll probably write some 1h hackish software and experiment with that
15:05:00 <mroman> would hardly require more than a bit socket code to get a first prototype working
15:05:24 <mroman> that and test computers
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19:20:07 <Taneb> What's a good time to set an alarm for a 9AM exam
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19:21:12 <fowl> 7 and every half hour between 7 and 9
19:21:50 * fowl doesn't fully wake up until he's in a rage from 2 hours of alarms going off
19:22:06 <int-e> how long will it take you to get there
19:22:26 <int-e> do you want to have breakfast
19:23:03 <Taneb> Hmm, fifteen or twenty minutes, and I'd like ten minutes for breakfast
19:23:21 <Taneb> I think I'll go every fifteen minutes from 7 to 8:30
19:23:26 <int-e> (those were my criteria... with the answer to the latter question being no... I just aimed to be there 10 minutes before the exam starts)
19:23:45 <Taneb> Although knowing me I'm gonna be so worked up about it I'll wake up at five
19:26:13 <int-e> otoh I'd plan for taking a shower
19:26:42 <Taneb> I have 7 exams in 7 days, I'm afraid hygiene is not my highest priority
19:27:30 <int-e> well it's good for relaxation
19:27:35 <shachaf> but a shower will also help you think better
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21:12:50 <int-e> no, "algebraic chess notation" is not a notation for algebraic chess
21:17:53 <coppro> int-e: that sounds wise
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21:18:08 <b_jonas> `? algebraic chess notation
21:19:10 <coppro> `le/rn algebraic chess notation/ algebraic chess notation is not a notation for algebraic chess
21:19:30 <HackEgo> αλτγρ+γ//αλτγρ+γ is the national dead pastry of Greece. Goes great with a glass of ouzo!
21:19:30 <HackEgo> algebraic chess notation? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:19:39 <HackEgo> Learned «algebraic chess notation»
21:20:35 <int-e> he'll feel compelled to remove the inital space and add a period at the end
21:21:21 <int-e> and then he'll ramble about how he's retired
21:21:25 <coppro> `algebraic chess notation
21:21:27 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: algebraic: not found
21:21:32 <coppro> `?algebraic chess notation
21:21:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?algebraic: not found
21:21:37 <coppro> `? algebraic chess notation
21:21:39 <HackEgo> algebraic chess notation is not a notation for algebraic chess
21:21:51 <coppro> `le/rn algebraic chess notation/algebraic chess notation is not a notation for algebraic chess.
21:21:56 <HackEgo> Relearned «algebraic chess notation»
21:23:46 <HackEgo> 548) <fizzie> I prefer the N64 controller, it's the only one that has place for my third hand.
21:23:46 <HackEgo> 1167) <Slereah_> And neutrinos aren't small neutrons! <Bike> They are small and neutral, though. <Slereah_> So is Switzerland
21:23:46 <HackEgo> 696) <fizzie> fungot: Feeling scrambled after all that? <fungot> fizzie: but it's much like new zealand, in my stone-age country, we still like you even if you're only using the new fnord
21:23:46 <HackEgo> 93) <fungot> pikhq: from csh type ' exit', is a simple protocol which provides an interface to c. [...]
21:23:47 <HackEgo> 320) <pikhq_> And if they wanted to go for "true" security, they'd just do "Warning: your computer has not been turned into a plasma. This may cause some of your personal data to be stolen. Click here to turn your computer into a ball of incandescent gas, a gigantic nuclear furnace."
21:25:51 <shachaf> coppro: what if you just `sedlast s/.//
21:25:58 <HackEgo> files="$(lastfiles)"; sed -i "$1" "$files"; echo -n "$files//"; cat "$files"
21:28:01 <coppro> shachaf: that wouldn't have handled the leading space. though I guess I could have done two expressions?
21:28:29 <coppro> your expression only fixes one of the two errors
21:31:21 <shachaf> Oh, I didn't notice that part.
21:34:10 <shachaf> `` echo ' blah blah' | sed 's; ;;;s $ . '
21:45:22 <fizzie> Huh, I didn't even know you could use space.
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21:59:59 <int-e> . o O ( Space is not used; it's occupied. For example: "What's your occupation?" - "About 80 liters." )
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22:16:52 <fizzie> oerjan: Happy Norway something-or-another day.
22:17:16 <fizzie> I don't know what day it is, but the SIXT car rental company emailed me an ad about it.
22:17:53 <oerjan> it's constitution day, aka our national day.
22:18:07 <fizzie> "Norwegians get happier and we are celebrating our country's birthday on May 17th. The streets will be filled with people wearing their national dress."
22:18:12 <fizzie> Also 10% of all car rentals.
22:19:08 <oerjan> (celebrating the signing of the constitution in 1814. although i vaguely recall claims it's a day off.)
22:19:45 <oerjan> i didn't dress up, national or otherwise, although i did eat a better dinner.
22:21:47 <b_jonas> oerjan: were there fireworks?
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22:29:16 <oerjan> b_jonas: no, that's only a new year custom.
22:30:08 <oerjan> instead, there are two parades and heaps of marching brass bands.
22:30:31 <shachaf> molum: WHy do you change nicks all the time?
22:30:58 <oerjan> and probably speeches. not that i went.
22:31:11 <oerjan> in Oslo there'll also be waving royals.
22:31:35 <fizzie> Fun fact: molybdenum mines (at least the one I know of) produce as byproduct lots of white(ish) sand.
22:31:36 <shachaf> oerjan: happy Napoleon crowned Emperor, 1804 day
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22:32:04 <molum> shachaf: Hmm? I don't, AFAIK
22:32:12 <shachaf> Well, you changed it just now.
22:32:17 <shachaf> And you also changed to hive and back.
22:32:24 <molum> Unless I change to a nick, and then back, in which case it's probably a joke in another channel
22:32:28 <molum> hive being one such one
22:32:48 <shachaf> fizzie: 10% of all car rentals happen today?
22:33:52 <oerjan> shachaf: you're a few months off hth
22:34:16 <fizzie> No, just 10% of all car rentals. No particular verb.
22:34:21 <oerjan> Napoleon's crowning anniversary.
22:35:10 <fizzie> https://googledrive.com/host/0B4J9OAzXNfZAelk5ZHdwZHlwWWM <- molybdenum mine byproduct sand pit. Or so I've been told.
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22:35:54 <shachaf> oerjan: ok, happy Nauru constitution day hth
22:36:42 <molum> fizzie: hmm, interesting
22:36:56 <molum> that looks quite pretty
22:37:09 <fizzie> shachaf: Happy U.S. Department of Energy declassifies documents showing world's largest mercury pollution event in Oak Ridge, Tennessee (ultimately found to be 4.2 million pounds) day.
22:37:10 <oerjan> shachaf: the _actual_ king involved was danish prince Christian Frederik, who only kept the throne for about 5 months. that part didn't stick.
22:37:43 <oerjan> (he inherited denmark later, though.)
22:37:48 <shachaf> fizzie: what's happy about that
22:37:55 <shachaf> i guess declassifying documents is good
22:38:03 <fizzie> shachaf: Well, it wasn't 5.2 million pounds.
22:40:13 <shachaf> It was pretty close, though.
22:40:56 <shachaf> oerjan: wait, napoleon's emperor thing started on may 18 anyway
22:41:07 <oerjan> shachaf: the thing we are celebrating was an attempt at norwegian independence (but keeping the same royal dynasty), which failed. and then somehow became the basis for gradually getting actual independence, 91 years later.
22:41:09 <hppavilion[1]> Could there be a quaternionic 4D mandelbrot set? One which, of course, you can slice and browse?
22:41:25 <shachaf> isn't it odd how some countries don't have independence day
22:41:59 <oerjan> we do have an independence day, but it's not very much celebrated.
22:42:15 <oerjan> i think it may be an official flag day.
22:43:13 <shachaf> fizzie: oh, you were using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_17
22:43:43 <b_jonas> oerjan: which independence day? the one when Széchenyi suicided, or the one after the first world war?
22:44:50 <oerjan> b_jonas: the one when we left Sweden behind. the one after the second world war is liberation day, which is May 8, and is at least somewhat celebrated.
22:45:33 <oerjan> norway stayed neutral in WWI.
22:46:44 <oerjan> the one after WW2 isn't called independence day because presumably no one considered the nazi government to have been legal in the first place.
22:47:01 <oerjan> (well, no one who counts.)
22:48:58 <shachaf> fizzie: 4.2 million pounds is over 6 million USD
22:49:11 <shachaf> presumably it was a lot more at the time
22:54:24 <oerjan> <int-e> he'll feel compelled to remove the inital space and add a period at the end <-- you forgot the capital tdnh
22:55:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/sedlast: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/sedlast: cannot execute: Permission denied
22:55:48 <shachaf> but now i can't use it anymore
22:57:08 <shachaf> if i made that program, i'd need sedthirdtolast tdnh
22:58:14 <shachaf> `` sed -i s.A wisdom/'algebraic chess notation'
23:03:12 <HackEgo> emac//emacs is the weird brother of nano.
23:03:35 <HackEgo> emacs is the weird brother of nano.
23:03:47 <shachaf> oerjan: careful, you're supposed to be retired
23:04:08 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Mandelbrot with a number other than 2 (Z=Z^2+c)
23:04:33 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: there's a sense in which they all look pretty much like the usual one, up close.
23:05:02 <oerjan> for the same reason that the usual mandelbrot contains many almost copies of itself.
23:05:03 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Specifically, for multibrot n, it's like n-1 mandelbrot sets squished together
23:05:18 <shachaf> b_jonas: MCV = Mobile Construction Vehicle hth
23:05:38 <shachaf> multibrot 2 is like 1 mandelbrot set squished together
23:06:49 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Wikipedia even talks about things like multibrot 2.3 (where that analogy breaks down), but there is no mention of multibrot i or 2+i
23:06:56 <oerjan> multibrot 1, though...
23:07:50 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: part of the problem is that once you use non-integers, everything becomes multivalued.
23:08:04 <oerjan> or alternatively, gets ugly branch cuts.
23:08:38 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Because n^0 = 1, and 1+1+1+1+...+1+c diverges for all c
23:08:54 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: um that's multibrot 0.
23:09:27 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: No, multibrot 0 has power -1 by my completely stupid definition
23:09:54 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But yes, it would be 0 if you use a good definition (where mandelbrot is multibrot 2)
23:10:14 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: hm then i'm not sure whether shachaf got that or not.
23:10:56 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: anyway, i disagree with your analysis. multibrot 1 gives 1+c each step.
23:10:57 <shachaf> i know mandelbrot is multibrot 2
23:11:10 <shachaf> multibrot 1 diverges everywhere except 0
23:11:22 <oerjan> shachaf: no, it's multibrot 1.
23:11:48 <shachaf> that's not consistent with what hppavilion[1] said, isn't it
23:11:55 <shachaf> 15:05 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Specifically, for multibrot n, it's like n-1 mandelbrot sets squished together
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23:12:24 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: YOU ARE INCONSISTENT
23:13:02 * hppavilion[1] feels clever again, but is more tentative this time
23:13:32 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Mandelbrot for the split-complexes or the duals?
23:13:48 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multibrot_set just says "multibrot with d = "
23:13:56 <shachaf> nothing about subtract 1 from the exponent
23:14:19 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I used a shitty definition of multibrot n that had a needless subtraction
23:14:41 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: also the talk page of that wikipedia page has a picture with a complex exponent hth
23:14:41 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Because it was convenient where multibrot n is n frankensteined mandelbrot sets
23:14:57 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: ok but you changed your definition in mid-conversation without telling anyone about it
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23:17:12 <oerjan> b_jonas: alas, i don't think there's an ö, even in german.
23:19:41 <oerjan> `le/rn almond bread/Almond bread is a delicacy made from fractal dough.
23:23:18 <hppavilion[1]> "Modern Gender Theory, or the 'Mandelbrot Sex', is..."
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23:37:51 <fizzie> The Swedish bread is bröd, if that's indeed what you were talking about.
23:39:12 <fizzie> I went to BLABAR (aka BLÅBÄR for diacritic-deficient people) the other day, a "Nordic concept store and cafe" hereabouts.
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23:39:21 <fizzie> They have the typical Swedish incorrect cinnamon buns.
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23:42:48 <shachaf> What is a Swedish incorrect cinnamon bun?
23:45:28 <fizzie> shachaf: The one that the majority thinks is correct, actually.
23:45:42 <fizzie> https://krausnickitchen.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/img_4711.jpg
23:45:55 <shachaf> What is a correct cinnamon bun?
23:46:25 <fizzie> The Finnish variant, which is rolled the other way around.
23:46:26 <fizzie> http://www.fazershop.com/globalassets/inriver/resources/722c8801-0252-4c3b-9ee6-92bf0e552aca3.jpg
23:46:39 <fizzie> Now I want a cinnamon bun of either kind. :/
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00:13:33 <shachaf> fizzie: At first I thought you meant rolled counterclockwise rather than clockwise.
00:13:58 <shachaf> Why do you care about the rolling direction?
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00:30:24 <fizzie> shachaf: Comfort of the familiar.
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00:31:28 <boily> shachaf is a familiar?
00:32:30 <oren> oh, so swedes roll cinnamon buns azimuthally, while finns roll them longitudinally?
00:33:15 <boily> he\\wooobackspacebackspacenobackslashesAAAAAAAAAAAabortabortabortaboren!
00:33:32 <boily> what happened to your eponymous backslashes?
00:33:53 <FireFly> The ones rolled the "correct" (i.e. wrong) way remind me of http://gifflar.com/wp-content/themes/gifflar/images/cinnamon-bag.png
00:34:09 <shachaf> how do swedish-speaking finn roll them?
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00:34:51 <shachaf> fizzie: you'll have to roll your own cinnamon buns hth
00:34:58 <fizzie> FireFly: Yeah, Pågen's Gifflar are kind of the cheapest possible borderline-acceptable rendering of the thing.
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00:35:00 <shachaf> i've made them in the past, although i rolled mine incorrectly
00:35:27 <fizzie> It's a couple magnitudes off the real thing, though.
00:36:12 <FireFly> I don't think I've had any cinnamon buns rolled the finnish way
00:36:24 <fizzie> Here's something else that's annoying. In the Europe song The Final Countdown, the lyrics imply that the narrator is leaving Earth ("And maybe we'll come back / To earth, who can tell?"), and is going to Venus ("We're heading for Venus (Venus) / And still we stand tall"), but then they say: "With so many lightyears to go". What sort of Earth-Venus route *can* they be taking that has "so many ...
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00:38:44 <fizzie> FireFly: FWIW, I don't think the rolling has that much of an effect on the taste, and the BLABAR ones were perfectly acceptable. I just go "but that's wrong" whenever I see them rolled the usual way.
00:39:06 <boily> \oren\: could you enthicken 幻 hth
00:40:35 <fizzie> If any of y'all ever happen to be in the Finland, though, I'd recommend http://www.yelp.com/biz/caf%C3%A9-succes-helsinki-2
00:41:45 <boily> fizziello. “500 error. Woof, something went wrong. Sorry about that!”
00:41:59 <shachaf> fizzie: Well, they might've left Earth a long time ago.
00:42:11 <shachaf> They aren't saying that they're on Earth now.
00:42:22 <shachaf> fizzie: I was also using Yelp to look at cinnamon buns and I also got a 500 error.
00:44:15 <fizzie> shachaf: Well, maybe. But the first part is: "We're leaving together, -- And maybe we'll come back / To earth, who can tell? -- We're leaving ground (leaving ground) / Will things ever be the same again?"
00:44:19 <fizzie> shachaf: I mean, maybe you can read them as currently leaving some other place, and still "coming back" to Earth, but I don't think that's a very natural interpretation.
00:45:09 <fizzie> Of course (at least in this transcription) it's a lowercase-earth, so maybe it's not Earth-earth.
00:45:58 <shachaf> Well, I've never heard that song.
00:47:10 <shachaf> Well, maybe I've heard it and I just don't remember.
00:47:47 <FireFly> Maybe it's more a thing over here
00:47:53 <shachaf> fizzie: Maybe they're using lightyears as a measure of time instead of distance.
00:48:29 <fizzie> I guess they're a Swedish band, that could be.
00:48:34 <FireFly> It's probably just meant to be technobabbly and sound spacey
00:48:54 <fizzie> The music video has a sign on it that says "Rökning förbjudet" and all.
00:49:03 <shachaf> I tend to just not know popular songs.
00:51:18 <fizzie> "Europe has achieved new attention in the US due to being featured in a GEICO Insurance cable television commercial campaign viewed for many months across the US in 2015-16."
00:54:14 <shachaf> europe is so small that america hardly cares about it
00:54:19 <shachaf> http://i.imgur.com/SLBqUWY.jpg
00:57:39 <FireFly> I don't think it works like that
00:57:59 <fizzie> I like the way North America (and Greenland) is there too.
01:03:36 <shachaf> fizzie: it makes you think, doesn't it
01:04:09 * boily sings “you spin me right round ♪”
01:04:26 <boily> . o O ( that burner makes a helluva noise... )
01:06:09 <shachaf> fizzie: What are the white things on the cinnamon bun? Sugar?
01:08:23 <shachaf> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aVgZleqdy4
01:08:39 <fizzie> shachaf: I think it's probably just map projections, they can be confusing like that. And yes, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nib_sugar
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02:14:51 <boily> apparently the grilf has got a new mechanical keyboard, and she wants to smack me with it to make sure it's solid enough...
02:18:18 <quintopia> got a coupon for a game that looks fun that i would probably never get to play
02:24:11 <boily> also, I'm battling against an old iMac, trying to install ubuntu on it.
02:24:46 <boily> (all-in-one desktop thing, from a friend's mom.)
02:24:54 <boily> (fungotting machine de mes deux qui veut rien savoir.
02:24:55 <fungot> boily: man. it just so happens that today, the 13th of april. another day of uneventful but highly satisfying deliveries. everyone is dead. in this timeline ( i.e. just scroll down, read it later, somehow.
02:26:53 <quintopia> while you're battling can you tell whether the mech kb is nkro?
02:30:25 <boily> one of the Cooler Masters with cherry browns. the model was running at a good price on amazon.ca, which was quite unusual.
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02:34:15 <boily> of course I prefer Ducky, but you don't look a gift keyboard in the switches.
02:34:28 <quintopia> tell her she should start learning steno
02:34:31 <boily> I never tried the reds. do they live up to the "cloud of boobs" hype?
02:35:08 <quintopia> i've not heard this hype, but they certainly have no variations in resistance along their travel
02:35:15 <boily> meanwhile, «Firefox ne peut établir de connexion avec le serveur à l'adresse en.wikipedia.org.» wtf.
02:35:48 <boily> «Firefox ne peut établir de connexion avec le serveur à l'adresse fr.wikipedia.org.»
02:35:54 <boily> what the fungot is going on.
02:35:54 <fungot> boily: good idea! the thought of that??? you are quite a sn0b simple. the defaced the walls of his room. john. return, he teaches her to fly a little higher, to see if john is of course.
02:36:33 <boily> okay, it reappeared...
02:37:20 * boily wildly flails around with a spookfish on his head
02:37:52 <boily> http://www.typewriter.be/images/grandjean-03b.jpg ?
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02:39:07 <boily> it's... something. it has keys.
02:39:33 <boily> but it's time for me to reconcile my head with a carefully thrown pillow.
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02:42:29 <lifthrasiir> https://molarmanful.github.io/ESMin/ another golfscript cousin?
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06:25:54 <shachaf> `` echo 'oerjan' | sed soeø
06:26:08 <shachaf> hmm, that won't show up properly in the logs
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07:01:36 <\oren\> chitandael is an angel, like uriel or gabriel
07:01:54 <shachaf> are you sure it's not a pair of rescue rangers
07:04:21 <\oren\> (it's actually a japanese pun about a chracter named chitanda eru)
07:05:38 <shachaf> (mine is a pun about characters named chip and dale)
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07:48:57 <hppavilion[1]> Frankly, I'm not a fan of the Hero's Journey because it doesn't feature proper branching capabilities- you can never have a Hero's Journey tragedy
07:52:48 <hppavilion[1]> Hero's Journey... Villain's Journey... Mook's Journey... Sidekick's Journey... Innocent Bystander's Journey... Reader's Journey...
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11:12:55 <Taneb> Woke up in time for my exam but now I am really stressed
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11:19:17 <boily> Tanelle. which one is it today?
11:26:28 <Taneb> This morning was Cryptography
11:26:31 <Taneb> This afternoon is "Programming: Correctness by Construction"
11:28:56 <boily> Taneb: sounds scary.
11:29:24 <boily> b_jellonas. if you have injured yourself in the fiddly parts, please don't live any hard to clean bloodstains in the channel hth
11:29:39 <b_jonas> `slashlearn hand injuries/Hand injuries are surprisingly common among webcomic writers, see eg. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2314 or http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0864.html
11:29:59 <b_jonas> ``` cp -vi wisdom/hand\ injur{ie,y}
11:30:02 <HackEgo> cp: cannot stat `wisdom/hand injurie': No such file or directory
11:30:04 <b_jonas> ``` cp -vi wisdom/hand\ injur{ies,y}
11:30:11 <HackEgo> `wisdom/hand injuries' -> `wisdom/hand injury'
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11:31:11 <Taneb> boily, I suppose it'd be common in any career that involves fiddly but repetitive movement of hands
11:31:15 <Taneb> Like, for example, drawing
11:31:43 <b_jonas> Taneb: no, I think it's just that we learn more about them when it happens to someone who can't draw when his hand is injured.
11:31:55 <b_jonas> It's common for everyone. Both my parents have hand hand injuries.
11:32:59 <boily> maybe it's hereditary?
11:32:59 <b_jonas> My mother injured her hand when skiing, my father injured his with a saw when woodworking, my brother has a smaller woodworking injury too.
11:33:22 <b_jonas> But you don't know about those because they don't draw webcomics.
11:34:02 <b_jonas> boily: that's possible, although I haven't caught it yet. I get my injuries in my right knee, I get a new wound there every eight years, so it will soon be time for the fourth wound.
11:34:11 <b_jonas> The third has started to fade so it's high time.
11:34:31 <int-e> I like hand hand injuries
11:34:55 <int-e> . o O ( punchline: it happened at their wedding ceremony while cutting the cake )
11:35:26 <int-e> "Both my parents have had hand injuries."
11:35:27 <Taneb> b_jonas, the person holding up the cake
11:36:52 <b_jonas> int-e: I wouldn't know about that. They didn't invite me to the wedding, and it was back when photography was expensive, so there isn't much documented evidence about it.
11:37:51 <int-e> obviously I'm not claiming that this actually happened
11:39:00 <int-e> and obviously I'm stating the obvious
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12:48:18 <b_jonas> `slashlearn adpoted/"Oh lord, we've adpoted another one." => Marten realizes how the webcomic he lives in works in http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2298
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13:34:07 <b_jonas> `slashlearn adpoted/"Oh lord, we've adpoted another one." (about Emily) => Marten realizes what kind of webcomic he lives in in http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2298
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13:53:45 <HackEgo> Y is a commune in France. There's nothing funny about this.
14:02:36 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
14:11:26 <b_jonas> Do you happen to know an easy trick to format floating-point numbers as decimal scientific format, but with fewer digits in the exponent than the libc sprintf writes by default?
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14:14:05 <fizzie> Isn't the exponent just an (unpadded) integer? How could you have less digits than that?
14:14:33 <b_jonas> fizzie: no, it's usually padded with zeros to at least two or three digits depending on libc, and has the sign always present
14:15:05 <b_jonas> fizzie: the C standard doesn't specify how many digits are used, so libcs can choose on themselves
14:15:49 <b_jonas> fizzie: this is actually one of the easiest ways to recognize windows's libc, because it uses three digits, and that's propagated to lots of higher level programs or functions
14:16:27 <b_jonas> fizzie: I don't think I've seen any libc use only one digit though
14:18:03 <b_jonas> `perl -eprintf "%e",exp(1)
14:18:17 <b_jonas> ^ that prints 2.718282e+000 on windows
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14:21:23 <fizzie> Seems to be 2 on glibc, right.
14:24:19 <fizzie> b_jonas: The standard *does* specify how many digits there should be in the exponent, at least in C11, and the Windows libc is in violation.
14:24:59 <fizzie> C11 7.21.6.1p8 on the 'e' conversion: "The exponent always contains at least two digits, and only as many more digits as necessary to represent the exponent."
14:25:42 <b_jonas> fizzie: does it now? I thought it didn't, and the windows libc was in violation "only" in how it formats and scans infinite, nan, and denormal values
14:26:39 <fizzie> It's that way also in C99, but not in C89.
14:26:55 <b_jonas> fizzie: a moment, I'll read up on this
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14:27:12 <fizzie> In C89 it's only "at least two digits", without the "only as many more as needed" add-on.
14:29:28 <fizzie> Also, C99 rationale: "For %e, C99 clarifies that small exponents contain at least 2 digits, but no more than are necessary to represent the value. Prior to C99, it was not clear that an arbitrary number of leading zeros were not allowed."
14:30:24 <b_jonas> fizzie: you're right, C99 and C11 do specify this. I didn't know that
14:31:44 <b_jonas> Ok, so my question is how I use only one digit in the exponent when that's enough.
14:32:08 <fizzie> I think you're going to have to resort to doing string processing in C.
14:32:36 <xfix> Does Windows even support anything from C99 standard library (that isn't part of C++)?
14:33:21 <b_jonas> xfix: yes, these days (in MSVC 2013 and 2015) it has much of C99 and C11 implemented (not all though),
14:33:49 <b_jonas> xfix: in particular it does implement the rint, trunc and the lrint, ltrunc functions.
14:34:07 <fizzie> "C Runtime Library": "C99 Conformance -- Visual Studio 2015 fully implements the C99 Standard Library, with the exception of any library features that depend on compiler features not yet supported by the Visual C++ compiler (for example, <tgmath.h> is not implemented)."
14:34:09 <b_jonas> xfix: the support was quite bad in older versions though
14:34:57 <xfix> I guess it's technically a bug, but I sorta doubt Microsoft would fix it because compatibility.
14:35:17 <xfix> There may be programs somewhere depending on three digits, considering this is Windows.
14:36:24 <b_jonas> xfix: I don't know about the three digits, but people almost certainly have files containing floating point infinites and nans formatted in windows's nonstandard format, and if they suddenly put a sand sscanf in the libc, the programs won't be able to read those back. It's a lose-lose situation.
14:36:40 <b_jonas> xfix: The three digits exponent is less of a problem because at least sscanf is required to parse the float either way.
14:37:30 <b_jonas> xfix: although octave, which normally prints arrays of matrices in as an aligned text-only table, does print unaligned tables on windows because it assumes the printf will use only two digits for the exponent
14:38:03 <b_jonas> but the slightly misaligned tables isn't as bad as you could get
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15:24:47 <b_jonas> wow... the power of certain bosses
15:25:53 <b_jonas> they can send a mail that contains only generic words like "for your info" and a scanned pdf document, and you'll READ IT because they'll the boss and they really are so lazy they send mail masquarading as spam like that.
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19:41:47 <izabera> did you know that on freenode you can't use hitler or fuhrer as a nickname?
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19:50:05 <Taneb> I have... less than 18 hours to learn Galois Theory
19:50:37 <izabera> great time to watch the first 7 harry potter movies
19:50:55 <Taneb> I kind of want to not fail university
19:51:30 <izabera> i see, that's why you're studying it 18 hours before the test
19:52:18 <Taneb> I didn't think this through in the past 4 months, I'll admit
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22:24:12 <Taneb> b_jonas, I know the feelin
22:29:41 <fizzie> Taneb: Are you high on believin'?
22:32:09 <Taneb> fizzie, that I can learn Galois Theory overnight, yes
22:32:33 <shachaf> you just have, like, field extensions and groups and stuff
22:32:51 <shachaf> you can learn it in half an hour hth
22:33:06 <shachaf> fizzie: Any flour in your hair lately?
22:33:42 <fizzie> Taneb: Well, you know what they say. Watching fields scroll by for hours makes you a Galois expert overnight.
22:34:31 <fizzie> shachaf: Not since March 2015.
22:38:18 <shachaf> Taneb: consider that by the time galois was your age he had been dead for almost two years
22:38:45 <izabera> that's not the ending i expected after "by the time galois was your age"
22:38:47 <Taneb> shachaf, by the time I was my age, he'd been dead for like 220 years
22:38:58 <Taneb> izabera, he died in a duel age 20
22:39:06 <Taneb> Frankly, it's much closer to one year
22:39:37 <shachaf> Sure, but he was ~1 year and 5 months old.
22:39:38 <izabera> thinking with his dick instead of his brain got him killed
22:39:50 <shachaf> And you're ~21 years and 6 months old
22:40:14 <izabera> turns out brains are better than dicks at thinking
22:41:25 <Taneb> Wow, Galois died in a duel at age 17 months
22:41:30 <Taneb> He has really gifted
22:42:15 <shachaf> That's nothing. Grassmann died in a self-duel.
22:43:26 <coppro> Taneb: the Klein Four Group has an excellent song
22:45:37 <Phantom_Hoover> izabera, i mean when he let his brain do the thinking he ended up in politics and little better off
22:46:32 <fizzie> Which body part did all the maths?
22:47:05 -!- boily has joined.
22:47:31 <izabera> there's not many mathematicians without lungs either
22:49:11 <izabera> i thought fishes had lungs as well
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22:50:10 <izabera> i thought they had gills instead of a nose
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22:50:50 <b_jonas> izabera: without lungs => http://www.xkcd.com/669/
22:51:02 <Taneb> izabera, I'd trust Phantom_Hoover on this one, he's the channel's best submarine jouster
22:51:06 <b_jonas> perhaps you want some undead or construct mathematicians
22:51:40 <izabera> let's just wait a couple decades for that
22:51:51 <fizzie> I keep giggling at "Narshmallow" (one of the post-it decorations at android.com/n -- the name-suggestion place).
22:53:34 <fizzie> That doesn't sound tasty at all.
22:54:00 <izabera> tastes like chewing tobacco?
22:55:06 <Taneb> Android Newcastle Brown Ale
22:57:41 <fizzie> Android Nettle -- it stings.
22:58:30 <boily> Android Nesquik with a screamingly delicious fternooner.
22:59:17 <HackEgo> fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry.
22:59:17 <HackEgo> Fternoon is the time of day when the Danes usually eat their fternooners.
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23:04:59 <izabera> it would be funnier with a quicker bot
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23:11:55 <fizzie> fung... wait, where's fungot.
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23:12:36 <fizzie> fungot: If you kept the wisdom database, it'd be much faster, right?
23:12:37 <fungot> fizzie: it does replace stdout hello, world!". that's it. :) if your cs will be anything more than pass control to next.
23:12:59 <shachaf> fizzie: that would be more convincing if you didn't have to restart fungot just to get that reply hth
23:13:00 <fungot> shachaf: imho? yes. does it do
23:13:26 <shachaf> fungot: does it do be like it is?
23:13:27 <fungot> shachaf: the more interesting it seems. those fnord beetles for instance)
23:14:43 <oerjan> fungot: i'd stay away from fnord beetles
23:14:44 <fungot> oerjan: reactance is gimmicky and sucks!" " no, there's no, et cetera...) s-expression, or do they keep track of how the r6rs thing works? its just... madness!
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23:16:11 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
23:16:18 <shachaf> fungot: reactance is great
23:16:18 <fungot> shachaf: 1 tests, 1 assertions, 0 failures, 0 errors and putting the usual order ( var stuff...)) are equivalent programs.
23:19:22 <fizzie> fungot: You're not very well-tested.
23:19:22 <fungot> fizzie: it's very useful unless you're recovering from " fnord fnord!
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23:21:50 <fizzie> I don't think you ever really recover from fnord fnord.
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23:22:20 <fungot> shachaf: it is a fine language. i expect that you are able to neutralize it or shoot such quantities it to outer space.
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02:37:07 <shachaf> don't think i should ahoi boily?
02:37:14 <oerjan> both o and p are on a day that my browser refuses to open inline :(
02:37:27 <boily> shachaf: oerjan is on an alphabeticrusade hth
02:37:51 <boily> ahoily is the canonical porthelloily.
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03:35:37 <quintopia> hey oerjan: do you know if any progress has been made on efficiently simulating TMs with tag systems?
03:40:42 <oerjan> istr the best is quadratic overhead, by someone improving the tag part of the rule 110 proof.
03:41:04 <oerjan> well, unless that has been further improved.
03:41:48 <shachaf> if it's been further improved then ydstr that?
03:42:30 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_110#Turing_machine_simulation_overhead
03:42:31 <quintopia> quadratic overhead is still better than the exponential overhead it used to be, yes?
03:42:42 <Cale> quintopia: Did you hear about the recent results regarding BB(n)?
03:42:56 <Cale> http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2725
03:43:28 <Cale> oh, and there are some newer announcements in a post next to that
03:43:35 <quintopia> haven't ever seen you in here before
03:43:43 <quintopia> suddenly develop a taste for esoterica?
03:44:08 <Cale> I was invited here when I was talking about my category-printf library
03:44:52 <Cale> which uses the co-Kleisli category for the comonad of functions out of a fixed monoid to implement a small typed Forth-like language and type safe printf format specifications.
03:45:18 <Cale> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/category-printf-0.1.1.0
03:45:27 <Cale> It's actually remarkably practical!
03:45:49 <oerjan> apparently sorear has got it down nearly to 1000 states.
03:47:06 <quintopia> Cale: sounds right up our alley. who doesn't like printf?
03:47:23 <Cale> I feel like I finally understand what printf is, mathematically
03:47:47 <oerjan> hm maybe just under 2000.
03:48:07 <shachaf> Cale: you should talk to mauke about it hth
03:48:19 <oerjan> it was the riemann hypothesis version that got under 1000.
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08:03:07 <HackEgo> lettuce//Lettuce is a vegetable with two dressings, join and meet.
08:04:09 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull oerjan FreeFull oerjan FreeFull oerjan oerjan
08:05:06 <shachaf> i suppose a semilettuce is either herbivorous or carnivorous
08:07:13 <shachaf> `learn JIT is just in time compilation.
08:07:18 <HackEgo> Learned 'jit': JIT is just in time compilation.
08:07:43 <myname> JIT compilation is just in time compilation
08:07:54 <HackEgo> wisdom/jit//JIT is just in time.
08:08:18 <shachaf> But a JIT is a just in time compiler.
08:08:33 <pikhq> Bah, clearly a JIT is a just in time decompiler.
08:08:54 <pikhq> Or is that a co-JIT?
08:09:15 <shachaf> That is not a cogent argument.
08:10:46 <shachaf> I'd be more interested in a JTL compiler.
08:11:08 <pikhq> What about a not-quite-in-time compiler?
08:11:11 <pikhq> I'm sure that has a use.
08:11:13 <myname> it compiles code after the instruction pointer left?
08:11:34 <shachaf> pikhq: I think that's the same as a just too late compiler.
08:12:09 <pikhq> Works out just fine if you then make the instruction pointer go in reverse.
08:12:23 <myname> not reverse, to the start
08:12:24 <pikhq> Good luck implementing the implicit COMEFROMS though.
08:12:44 <shachaf> pikhq: The Mill has two instruction pointers, one going forward and the other going backward.
08:12:44 <myname> you have to finish every code with a platform dependent jump instruction
08:13:08 <pikhq> How Millishly odd.
08:13:32 <Cale> I was thinking "always a bit late", but that might even be better :)
08:14:50 <shachaf> But with the Mill a jump instruction moves both instruction pointers to the same point. Then they start moving in opposite directions from there until they encounter another jump.
08:15:00 <shachaf> What if you jumped them to two different points, and they converged?
08:16:08 <pikhq> Hmm... Imagine a compiler that emits an asm sequence that looks innocuous, but ends up actually running at a one byte offset from each of the instructions and does something malicious.
08:16:18 <pikhq> Admittedly only really practical on x86.
08:16:59 <myname> no problem, every other architecture should just qemu
08:17:31 <pikhq> No, qemu, an IEEE double is not a valid implementation of x87 floats.
08:17:45 <pikhq> shachaf: Fairly okay. Not much news of note though.
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08:18:30 <shachaf> x87 should use 87-bit floats
08:18:37 <pikhq> Somewhat irritated by a "I will definitely get back to you on Tuesday" that I still haven't heard back from.
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08:43:30 <lifthrasiir> shachaf: what's a difference with x86 then?
08:44:03 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘shachaf’Not in scope: ‘x87’Not in scope: ‘should’ Not in s...
08:44:03 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘float’ (imported from Text.PrettyPrint.HughesPJ)
08:44:19 <lifthrasiir> | probably I should use this kind of quotation then
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09:32:06 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
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09:41:37 <lifthrasiir> make a bot with prefix of `I`, and you will be kicked
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09:54:43 <b_jonas> "x87 should use 87-bit floats" eww
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09:59:27 <fizzie> Similarly to how x86 should have 86-bit GPRs.
10:17:00 <b_jonas> fizzie: and nintendo-64 should have a 64-bit cpu
10:27:59 <shachaf> fizzie: Did the 486 have ~486-bit cache lines?
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10:32:31 <fizzie> Well... it's the 80486, and that's a lot of bits.
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14:56:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bakman329 * New user account
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15:17:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ListLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=47043 * Bakman329 * (+803) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=ListLang |paradigms=imperative |author=[https://github.com/bakman329 Bakman329] |year=[[:Category:2016|2016]] |memsys=stack-based |dimensions=one-dime..."
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16:14:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Chance]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=47044 * M654 * (+2683) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Chance |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:M654|m654]] |year=[[Category:2016|2016]] |typesys= |memsys=tape-based |refimpl=[https://github.com/m654z/C..."
16:16:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47045&oldid=47040 * M654 * (+13)
16:16:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:M654]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47046&oldid=47039 * M654 * (+18)
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17:00:34 <fizzie> "Note: Wikipedia categories can be quite unintuitive and much broader than you expect. For example, every human is included in the category /applied ethics/ because humans are in /people/ which is in /personhood/ which is in /issues in ethics/ which is in /applied ethics/."
17:09:56 <nortti> for me it seems they should probably have "people" as in list of people in personhood
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21:12:58 <b_jonas> I went shopping today and bought myself a new surge protector,
21:13:25 <b_jonas> and my grandmother a grandmaphone, at least I hope it is one, I'm going to charge its battery then test it live now to see if it is.
21:15:19 <shachaf> I don't think grandmaphones usually have batteries.
21:15:36 <b_jonas> shachaf: what? how would they work otherwise?
21:15:54 <shachaf> You wind them up, don't you?
21:16:14 <b_jonas> they need power for the mobile phone reception and for the light
21:16:34 <shachaf> Mobile phone reception? For playing records?
21:17:10 <b_jonas> what? it doesn't only play records, it works as a mobile phone but with a saner interface
21:18:13 <b_jonas> I installed the surge protector, and also tested what else is on the same fuse as the computer (the cable modem is, as well as two ceiling lamps).
21:18:16 <shachaf> It plays records and works as a mobile phone?
21:18:25 <shachaf> Doesn't seem like it'd be all that mobile.
21:18:28 <b_jonas> shachaf: it primarily works as a mobile phone
21:18:53 <b_jonas> I think it might play mp3 music from its sd card, but I'm not sure about that part and don't much care
21:19:51 <b_jonas> it doesn't play any sort of rotating disks
21:20:11 <shachaf> Then it's not much of a grammaphone, is it?
21:20:28 <b_jonas> shachaf: it's a grandmaphone (I hope), definitely not a grammophone
21:21:10 <shachaf> I mean "You mean not a gramophone?".
21:21:19 <izabera> yeah one of those huge cellphones with large keys
21:21:20 <shachaf> I assume a grandmaphone combines the best features of gramophones and grandmas.
21:21:27 <izabera> and an emergency button for when they're having a stroke
21:22:13 <b_jonas> izabera: I think this one doesn't have an emergency button (you just dial 112 and press the green button, that's the GOOD interface because it works on every phone there is)
21:23:26 <b_jonas> ah, it does have an emergency button apparently
21:24:26 <b_jonas> izabera: 112 is the all-purpose general emergency number, in most of Europe these days
21:24:44 <b_jonas> izabera: it's handled by the police because they're the best equipped to serve as a call center these days
21:24:57 <shachaf> b_jonas: Isn't that too easy to accidentally dial on rotary phones?
21:25:03 <shachaf> Which I assume a grandmaphone is.
21:25:30 <izabera> shachaf: iirc people used to lock up rotary phones so that you couldn't deal most numbers
21:25:35 <b_jonas> as in, if you need some other sort of emergency, they can call it, but if you can't communicate properly or doing prank calls, then it's best to get the police to know about it rather than the other emergency services
21:25:47 <b_jonas> shachaf: no, it's not a rotary phone. rotary phones are almost extinct these days.
21:25:51 <izabera> and that's why 112 113 and emergency numbers use low digits
21:26:02 <shachaf> Which is why only grandparents use them.
21:26:23 <b_jonas> shachaf: maybe, but in any case this isn't a rotary phone, it's a mobile phone
21:26:26 <izabera> don't have a landline anymore though
21:26:38 <b_jonas> and 112 is easy to dial, even on a mobile phone, but not TOO easy, and this is a feature
21:26:53 <b_jonas> you should be able to dial it quickly even without looking, or to dial it on an unfamiliar phone
21:28:21 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, apparently 112 even works in North America.
21:28:46 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, and very likely 911 works here too. those are undocumented features that hopefully exist.
21:29:14 <b_jonas> shachaf: all the old emergency numbers _should_ work too, and I hope they do
21:29:46 <b_jonas> but 112 is the recommended one, and the one that definitely works
21:29:51 <izabera> what happens if i dial 911 for testing purposes?
21:30:05 <izabera> like do they arrest me for disrupting a public service?
21:30:09 <b_jonas> izabera: you should then talk to the operator and explain why you did it
21:30:23 <b_jonas> izabera: if you do it only once and do talk with them, they probably won't arrest you, they have some grace
21:30:25 <shachaf> In .il, you dial 100 for the police, 101 for an ambulance, and 102 for the fire department.
21:30:45 <b_jonas> shachaf: wait, are you asking about you in particular? they will arrest _you_
21:30:55 <shachaf> b_jonas: What? I wasn't even asking.
21:32:21 <shachaf> And why are you saying I'm not normal?
21:32:29 <shachaf> I mean, is that intended as some sort of insult?
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21:33:54 <pikhq> shachaf: Yes, GSM networks in the US IIRC are required to accept pretty much any emergency number and map them to 911.
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21:34:43 <shachaf> doesn't have the same feel to it hth
21:35:15 <shachaf> pikhq: You should send that person an angry email about how it's Thursday and how dare they.
21:36:27 <pikhq> And relatedly, cell phone networks in the US are required to accept emergency calls no matter if it's from a paying subscriber or not...
21:36:31 <pikhq> Which is fairly nice.
21:37:42 <pikhq> (... also, phone companies aren't allowed to disconnect physical phone service, just change 'em to 911-only)
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22:30:36 <\oren\> i want a c++ compiler that emits c
22:31:53 <shachaf> I want a C++ compiler that omits C.
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22:32:22 <Taneb> shachaf, a ++ compiler?
22:32:29 <\oren\> shachaf: how about both
22:33:52 <shachaf> C isn't a good intermediate language.
22:34:03 <Taneb> It should emit C# instead
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22:34:44 <\oren\> c is the most portable one
22:34:46 <pikhq> C is especially a bad intermediate language when you have ABI concerns around.
22:34:56 <shachaf> Taneb: How'd you do on Galois theory?
22:35:01 <Taneb> shachaf, well enough?
22:35:08 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure you can't meet typical C++ ABI with C output.
22:35:26 <Taneb> I couldn't figure out how to prove that pi/9 is an unconstructible angle
22:35:28 <shachaf> No, of course you'd need your own name mangling etc.
22:35:55 <pikhq> And global constructors wouldn't work well.
22:36:10 <\oren\> is there a standard for name mangling yet?
22:37:11 <shachaf> Taneb: Maybe Galois practice will be more successful.
22:38:40 <\oren\> hmm what about a c++ to GObject compiler
22:39:01 <\oren\> or is that a really evil idea
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22:58:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unreadable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47047&oldid=46971 * Timwi * (-6) update link to Esoteric IDE
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23:11:33 <poq> where elliot and ion?
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23:12:05 <Taneb> poq, I haven't seen either of them in a long while
23:12:19 <poq> ;[ k ty Taneb
23:12:32 * poq :-* to the wind
23:12:36 <shachaf> Taneb: You're in several channels with ion, at least.
23:12:46 -!- poq has left.
23:12:48 <Taneb> shachaf, I don't pay attention
23:13:01 <Taneb> Strictly speaking, I've never actually *seen* either of them
23:13:25 <shachaf> I assume everyone in Hexham has seen everyone else in Hexham.
23:13:50 <Taneb> elliott was a hermit and I didn't go out much
23:14:26 <HackEgo> Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico
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23:19:51 <HackEgo> "Only sane man" boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department. He is also a renowned Capitalist.
23:20:33 <shachaf> boily is a renowned Capitalist?
23:20:41 <quintopia> amazing that this bio includes no mention of portmantelleau
23:21:48 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. The unit of fun punnery is named after him.
23:22:24 <quintopia> i think i'm the least quirky person
23:22:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quintopia: not found
23:22:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?quintopia: not found
23:22:54 <HackEgo> quintopia is our resident tl;dr generator. He is flooded by thundercats and thunderdogs. He is the temporal antipode of boily despite living on the same continent.
23:24:37 <shachaf> Oh, disliking bell peppers makes you quirky now?
23:24:44 <HackEgo> Your retired mysterious evil cackling overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker.
23:25:19 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/l\./l with a passion./' wisdom/oerjan
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23:25:39 <shachaf> Well, ask Fiora what that's about.
23:27:27 <boily> I wonder if she'll ever come back to the chännel...
23:27:56 <boily> bell peppers are delicious.
23:36:46 <shachaf> `` sed -i s/ante/anti/ wisdom/oerjan
23:37:27 <boily> hppavellon[1]. what about it?
23:37:40 <hppavilion[1]> boily: It looks like xkcd isn't the webcomic is should go in
23:37:53 <shachaf> :33 < bell peppers are the worst invention in culinary hisstory
23:38:34 <Taneb> shachaf, it's not the weekend yet
23:38:50 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], i think randall's moving into totally batshit surreal humour
23:40:02 <Taneb> shachaf, by "it" I was using the impersonal pronoun, to state that the current day is neither Saturday nor Sunday
23:40:11 <shachaf> Taneb: Oh, I follow. The :33 thing.
23:40:23 <shachaf> Does that constitute a costume?
23:40:40 <boily> Taneb and shachaf are making as much sense as fungot...
23:40:40 <fungot> boily: in 5min that is, play stupid and violent games on a 3x3 array of lcd monitors
23:40:42 <Taneb> Seeing as I only see you online, I think so
23:41:02 <shachaf> Taneb: Well, I've invited you to California multiple times.
23:41:15 <shachaf> If nothing else, to take a big pile of Magic: The Gathering cards off my hands.
23:41:25 <Taneb> shachaf, alas, I cannot afford travel
23:41:36 <shachaf> Just interview at some company and have them fly you over.
23:41:45 <Taneb> And paying to travel to California specifically to take your Magic cards would violate my oath
23:41:46 <Phantom_Hoover> is the sale value of the mtg cards greater than the cost of the flights
23:42:14 <shachaf> It might be in a few decades.
23:42:27 <shachaf> But I can't guarantee to keep the offer open until then.
23:43:05 <Taneb> Also applying for a job interview in the US would violate my other oath
23:43:11 <Taneb> I have only two oaths
23:43:28 <Taneb> 1) not to spend money on Magic: the Gathering; 2) not to work in the US
23:43:57 <shachaf> Obviously you would travel for other reasons.
23:44:06 <shachaf> Why did you swear not to work in the US?
23:44:15 <boily> we're having another guild tournament this summer at the office. I got Gruul this year ^^
23:44:27 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure companies (at least usually) won't actually force you to become an employee even if you interview.
23:44:55 <fizzie> So you can have your all-expenses-paid interview trip, and then just cordially decline their offer.
23:45:14 <Taneb> boily, I'm just worried about living in a country that has no national healthcare and high firearms ownership
23:45:19 <Taneb> fizzie, hmm, that is a point
23:45:30 <shachaf> Yes, of course I didn't mean you'd accept the offer.
23:45:51 <fizzie> Just don't pick companies with too many international offices, like I did. I only got to visit London and Aachen.
23:46:07 <Taneb> Being forced to visit London
23:46:23 <shachaf> Taneb: Well, what if you live in a country with no national healthcare but you make a lot of money?
23:46:34 <boily> Taneb: you should canada. we have healthcare! and meese!
23:46:43 <Taneb> shachaf, it'd be ideologically wrong
23:46:47 <Taneb> boily, far more tempting
23:46:56 <Taneb> shachaf, working in Canada
23:48:05 <shachaf> You could go work in Vancouver and visit the US on weekends to cosplay Karkat Vantas.
23:48:31 <Taneb> That is one option
23:48:36 <boily> East Coast Best Coast.
23:49:03 <Taneb> Although I find you suggesting that I visit your country to cosplay a character Nepeta Leijon had a crushs on... suspect
23:49:21 <Taneb> I was born on the east coast!
23:49:30 <shachaf> Taneb: I had to check my Shipping Wall.
23:49:36 <shachaf> i,i shipping and handling wall
23:50:14 <boily> virtual, or corkboard with printed photos of every character, with coloured strings pinned between them?
23:50:53 <Taneb> boily, painted in blood on a cave wall, I believe
23:52:21 <Taneb> shachaf, the one in England
23:52:27 <shachaf> Maybe you should move to the US and start a revolution.
23:52:45 <fizzie> Finland doesn't even have an east coast.
23:53:34 <shachaf> fizzie: If I remember correctly Google does EMEA SRE interviews in ZRH?
23:53:36 <boily> fizzie: you lack ambition. conquer Russia!
23:53:46 <shachaf> They should let you do them wherever you want.
23:54:01 <shachaf> How else are you supposed to travel to the US?
23:54:20 <fizzie> shachaf: I think I've heard something like that as well. And, well, I think you're supposed to travel to the US by accepting the offer.
23:54:37 <shachaf> fizzie: Well, it's too late by that point.
23:54:51 <fizzie> I have a visit to Cambridge, MA and Chicago, IL in August, incidentally.
23:55:22 <fizzie> No, that'd have been a bit too much.
23:55:34 <shachaf> What! You can't not go to MTV.
23:56:12 <fizzie> I think I'm pretty capable of not going there, I've successfully not gone for a while now.
23:56:49 <shachaf> Which makes it all the harder to avoid this time.
23:57:50 <fizzie> Everyone else I have anything to do with will either be coming from MTV to Chicago (it's a summit kind of thing) or is in Cambridge.
23:58:05 <Taneb> ...it's concievable I've been to Mountain View
23:58:10 <shachaf> So you're all going to get drunk?
23:58:15 <Taneb> I've definitely been to CA when I was very small
23:58:26 <fizzie> I skipped last year's, but that sounds plausible.
23:58:41 <fizzie> Some people are coming from MTV by train.
23:58:56 <fizzie> Apparently there's a scenic way to come by train.
23:59:02 <shachaf> fizzie: Which people? You should mention that in #trains.
23:59:13 <shachaf> There's at least one person who works at the Cambridge office there.
23:59:58 <Taneb> ...looking at where I remember going in CA
00:00:10 <Taneb> It's concievable I've been within 400 miles of Mountain View
00:01:11 <fizzie> "AMTRAK is like the Orient Express of the USA. It'll be a special time."
00:01:18 <pikhq> Have you been in the Bay Area?
00:01:53 <fizzie> Seems to be something called the California Zephyr.
00:02:02 <Taneb> pikhq, not as far as I'm aware
00:02:14 <Taneb> I remember Universal Studios which apparently is in Los Angeles
00:02:20 <Taneb> I was only 3 years of age
00:02:50 <shachaf> Taneb: is it immoral for me to live in the united states
00:02:50 <Taneb> That is an odd question to ask, quintopia
00:03:10 <quintopia> would it be more or less odd to answer?
00:03:18 <Taneb> shachaf, it isn't immoral to me, you live there of your own free will
00:03:18 <quintopia> i'll take that as your answering "not me"
00:03:57 <shachaf> Taneb: is it immoral to me, though
00:04:07 <Taneb> shachaf, that depends on your morals
00:09:37 <pikhq> Is it immoral if you aren't a citizen of another country and thus have real issues living anywhere else?
00:10:05 <shachaf> I have all sorts of citizenships, though.
00:10:58 <shachaf> Hmm, but the other countries have mandatory military service.
00:11:43 <pikhq> Sure, but IIRC you've got the right to live anywhere in Schengen, so hey.
00:12:07 <Taneb> I have two with the vague possibility of a third
00:12:18 <Taneb> None of which as far as I am aware have mandatory military service
00:12:24 <shachaf> Yes, but I think the exemption specifically relies on me living in the US?
00:12:32 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], summary of my collated research on today's xkcd:
00:12:33 <Phantom_Hoover> <Phantom_Hoover> after extensive research i have concluded that the joke is that as it is spring there are rabbits around and people take pictures of the cute little ones
00:12:33 <Phantom_Hoover> <Phantom_Hoover> half of the joke appears to have been left out of the comic and the remainder has been extrapolated grotesquely by randall's blackbird-like comedic timing
00:12:59 <Taneb> quintopia, I have a unicycle if it helps
00:14:01 <quintopia> Taneb: will that help us start an esoteric band
00:14:04 <pikhq> shachaf: Huh. I woulda figured it would be on you not living in the countries in question.
00:14:20 <Taneb> quintopia, I believe bands are made more esoteric if they have a unicycle
00:14:20 <pikhq> But then I am in no way an expert on mandatory military service requirements in other countries.
00:14:26 <shachaf> pikhq: Did you ever get emails from Skyrock Adventures?
00:14:34 <pikhq> Not to my knowledge.
00:14:50 <Taneb> However, I cannot yet ride said unicycle
00:15:03 <quintopia> Taneb: more eccentric, certainly. more esoteric though?
00:15:11 <pikhq> I would certainly hope you couldn't get in a situation where you would be forced to engage in mandatory military service in two countries *simultaneously*...
00:15:22 <Taneb> quintopia, only a select few people can ride a unicycle
00:15:34 <shachaf> Is a select few fewer than few?
00:15:38 <Taneb> pikhq, especially if said countries were at war
00:15:46 <fizzie> In Finland, the military service is optional if you have a second nationality and haven't been living in Finland for the last seven years or more.
00:15:51 <Taneb> shachaf, not necessarily, but it is more prestigious
00:16:07 <pikhq> fizzie: Which is only half the situation for shachaf, unfortunately.
00:16:16 <pikhq> I haven't the foggiest clue how that works for Israel.
00:16:35 <shachaf> fizzie: Oh, is that true? But what happens when you move to Finland for seven years?
00:17:04 <Taneb> What if you are stationed in Finland while in another nation's military
00:17:52 <pikhq> Taneb: That typically is not considered "living in the country", bizarrely.
00:17:56 <fizzie> shachaf: If you move back to Finland while still <= 30 years old, you'll need to do it; if older than that, they'll just forget about it.
00:18:16 <shachaf> Then I can just wait [redacted] years and then move to Finland, I guess.
00:18:31 <quintopia> shachaf: so you originated in finland?
00:18:43 <quintopia> shachaf: you have one of those ridiculous names by birthright?
00:20:27 <fizzie> (Apparently the 7-year rule is also just the threshold after which it's automatic. You can apply for an exemption even if you've been away from Finland less than that, if you're sufficiently free of connections to Finland.)
00:20:44 <fizzie> I have just the boring one nationality.
00:20:59 <pikhq> Alas, I only have US citizenship. So boring.
00:21:12 <quintopia> i should have followed this convo more closely
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00:21:30 <pikhq> Rather better than a US green card though. Many of the related obligations without many of the rights.
00:21:48 <Taneb> I think I will head to bed now
00:22:31 <HackEgo> Your retired mysterious evil cackling overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antidiluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a passion. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker.
00:22:46 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, if the UK leaves the EU I'll be doing my best to get a Netherlands passport
00:22:51 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/anti/ante/' wisdom/oerjan
00:22:54 <shachaf> oerjan: well, you've been known to kick people who flood the channel
00:23:11 <fizzie> If the UK leaves the EU, I wonder whether they'll kick me out.
00:23:18 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, getting a Netherlands passport?
00:23:22 <Phantom_Hoover> god the border situation's going to be a clusterfuck once that happens
00:23:50 <pikhq> fizzie: That would be such a clusterfuck.
00:24:12 <pikhq> Though, the UK being in Schengen is not directly related to them being in the EU.
00:24:28 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, since January last year.
00:24:32 <pikhq> It's possible they could leave the EU but still be in their weird half-Schengen state.
00:24:41 <shachaf> oerjan: apparently you mildly dislike puns with a passion too hth
00:25:07 <Phantom_Hoover> is ireland in schengen? presumably not since in practical terms the borders work the same as the UK
00:25:22 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, it's got the same deal as the UK
00:25:51 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Half-Schengen. They're on the same bizarro thing where they agree to many of the terms such as the right to residence for Schengen citizens, but not the open border.
00:26:15 <oerjan> shachaf: only puns masquerading as stupid typos hth
00:26:23 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: London.
00:27:03 <shachaf> fizzie: I heard the new London office was going to be pretty good.
00:27:32 <fizzie> shachaf: Well, I mean, there's two.
00:27:50 <fizzie> shachaf: There's the one we're moving in soon, that's just a boring old office building rented from someone.
00:28:11 <fizzie> shachaf: And then there's the new building Google's building from scratch, that's supposed to be incredible and all that.
00:28:23 <fizzie> Of course the latter doesn't actually exist.
00:28:26 <shachaf> What, they're still building it?
00:28:32 <fizzie> They haven't started yet.
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00:28:38 <fizzie> There's an impressive hole in the ground, though.
00:28:48 <pikhq> Well, y'know, it's gotta be web-scale.
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00:29:17 <fizzie> The story I heard was, the plans were insufficiently awesome and had to be scrapped.
00:29:34 <fizzie> Has to be true, since that's what Daily Mail says: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2950181/Google-scraps-boring-plans-London-HQ-Internet-giant-s-boss-Larry-Page-orders-architects-design-building-worthy-standing-100-years.html
00:29:39 <Phantom_Hoover> ah for fuck's sake i think i need mine and my parents' birth certificates to get an irish passport
00:30:33 <fizzie> The office that actually does exist is right next to the hole in the ground, though, so at least it'll be a short move if they eventually end up building something.
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00:42:59 <oerjan> fizzie: now i'm thinking of those sinkholes...
01:02:58 <boily> sinkholes. deep into the ground, a little bit darker than they ought to be. than they have the right to be. shouldn't they be lightened more by the light source you carry?
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01:03:32 <boily> a flashlight should do its job, not bring out too many shadows, right by the corner of your vision.
01:04:25 <boily> the descent is easy, even if the rock is clammy. steps hewn so many years ago are uneven, but wide. you won't slip, or if you do, you'll be close enough to the ground to not break too many bones.
01:05:10 <boily> or you hope so. the ground isn't there, and you fear it has forsaken you. not even a geological laugh to remind you of its presence. it smirks, in the darkness.
01:05:25 <oerjan> shoily. i assume there's a reference.
01:08:24 <boily> I may be in the act of reading a few SCPs...
01:09:11 <oerjan> the flashlight reminded me of another one, the dimension hopper.
01:10:28 <oerjan> let's just say you shouldn't assume light is harmless.
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01:14:30 <boily> SCP-507 is a very well done article.
01:14:56 <boily> I was inspired by SCP-087, my all-time favourite. that one is gutwrenchterrifying.
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01:37:13 <oerjan> <shachaf> Oh, disliking bell peppers makes you quirky now? <-- definitely!
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01:40:18 <shachaf> oerjan: you know what else is quirky? editing your own wisdom entry hth
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01:42:19 <oerjan> now where did i put it.
01:42:20 <HackEgo> Evil overlords do evil acts like taking over the world, kicking puppies, and changing their own wisdom entries.
01:44:34 <Sgeo> Help I think my language nomadness is at a standstil
01:44:49 <Sgeo> I try to look at other languages but all I see is ways that they're bad because they're not Rust.
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01:45:34 <oerjan> Sgeo: how am i going to make a "rusted" pun when you type this fast tdnh
01:46:05 <HackEgo> Sgeolang is probably Rust ATM.
01:47:25 <oerjan> `learn Sgeolang used to change frequently, but eventually it rusted in place.
01:47:30 <HackEgo> Relearned 'sgeolang': Sgeolang used to change frequently, but eventually it rusted in place.
01:48:29 <Sgeo> I'm trying to look at Perl 6, but I keep getting hung up on its mutability model not being Rust's, and that roles suck compared to Rust traits
01:48:30 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: `wisdom uses a bad PRNG?
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01:49:06 <Phantom_Hoover> honestly i kind of assumed sgeo stopped jumping languages after i stopped paying attention to this channel
01:49:08 <Sgeo> A lot of other stuff I can almost forgive based on Perl 6 being dynamically typed
01:52:51 <Moon_> Does hackego allow sshing?
01:54:54 <shachaf> Sgeo: i think your language behavior may be the opposite of nomadness hth
01:55:05 <boily> Mhelloon_. you should try!
01:55:18 <shachaf> oerjan: `wisdom was created just the other day anyway
01:55:25 <shachaf> Sgeo: What about all the ways Rust is bad because it's not Haskell?
01:55:37 <shachaf> all it means is that you've grown old and set in your ways hth
01:56:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ssh: not found
01:57:19 <shachaf> `` hg log bin/wisdom | tac
01:57:44 <shachaf> `` hg log bin/wisdom | grep date
01:57:46 <HackEgo> date: Tue May 03 23:17:41 2016 +0000 \ date: Mon Nov 16 02:53:18 2015 +0000 \ date: Mon Nov 16 02:52:06 2015 +0000 \ date: Mon Nov 16 02:50:09 2015 +0000 \ date: Mon Nov 16 02:40:16 2015 +0000 \ date: Thu Jul 02 15:13:01 2015 +0000 \ date: Thu Jul 02 15:06:48 2015 +0000 \ date: Sun Jun 21 02:4
01:57:53 <shachaf> `` hg log bin/wisdom | grep date | tail -n1
01:57:55 <HackEgo> date: Mon Jun 01 23:54:10 2015 +0000
01:58:03 <shachaf> see, it's less than a year old
01:58:47 <boily> shachaf: Rust is good, exactly because it isn't Haskell.
02:00:08 * oerjan quickly jumps into the bomb shelter
02:00:19 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in all Mexico!
02:01:03 <HackEgo> Rust is C++ as designed by the makers of Haskell.
02:07:45 <Sgeo> Rust fixes a lot of problems Haskell has IMO
02:11:18 <Sgeo> Like annoying to use records
02:12:01 <Sgeo> https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/47ucw9/comparing_haskell_and_rust_which_to_choose_when/d0fphn2
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02:15:01 <Sgeo> Rust has type families and not fundeps, instead of both for historical reasons like Haskel
02:18:00 <oerjan> does it have injective type families, though
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03:11:31 * Sgeo has no idea what those are
03:12:06 <Sgeo> shachaf, I have been able to fake rank-n types in some circumstances, although it sucks
03:13:39 <Sgeo> I made a trait (like a Haskell class) representing forall a. (Reifies a b) => a -> b
03:13:51 <Sgeo> But I don't have a reasonable way to write closures that satisfy that
03:14:22 <Sgeo> I made a macro, but it doesn't close over stuff:
03:14:22 <Sgeo> https://gist.github.com/Sgeo/3d7f8449ea5ba136038a9c677e744004#file-haskell_reflection_2-rs-L157
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05:09:07 <zzo38> I have writen some designs for a kind of computer machine and I wrote about the video processor and blitter and so on. The blitter is not nearly as advanced as Amiga, though.
05:20:03 <zzo38> You could do memcpy(dest,src,n) as memblt(dest,1,src,1,n,0,MEMBLT_OPAQUE) and memset(s,c,n) as memblt(s,1,&c,0,n,0,MEMBLT_OPAQUE) for example.
05:20:51 <zzo38> Do you know some things about computer hardware design?
05:22:35 <mad> I know some things
05:22:56 <mad> the general problem with blitters is that you need 3 times the memory bandwidth
05:23:28 <mad> once for reading the texture, once for writing to the framebuffer, and once for displaying to the screen
05:23:57 <zzo38> Unlike Amiga the blitter in my design uses up CPU cycles and cannot run simultaneously with the CPU. Also screen displaying is a separate component.
05:24:28 <zzo38> The video processor is clock interleaved with the CPU.
05:25:04 <mad> doesn't the amiga share the same ram for gfx and cpu&
05:25:18 <mad> (or at least the amiga 500)
05:25:39 <zzo38> I don't know a lot about Amiga, but I think it does share some of the RAM.
05:26:00 <mad> yeah it has 2 types of ram... chip ram and fast ram
05:26:13 <mad> fast ram is fast because it's not shared with the video and sound hw :3
05:26:31 <zzo38> Yes, and only the Chip-RAM is shared.
05:26:54 <mad> do you have hw scrolling?
05:27:36 <zzo38> My own design is different; video and CPU are clock-interleaved so both have exclusive access to memory. CPU can run at double speed when video is disabled (note that video is normally enabled even during vblank, since the video processor executes instructions during vblank and hblank)
05:28:09 <mad> what generation of dram is your system designed around?
05:28:12 <zzo38> mad: Yes, the video processor runs a program which can write to the video registers in order to implement scrolling and so on
05:28:24 <mad> early c64 like dram or modern?
05:28:39 <mad> also, 8 bits? 16 bits? 32 bits?
05:29:14 <zzo38> I haven't decided anything about DRAM yet, although it is 8-bits data, 32-bits address (audio memory is 16-bits data though)
05:29:42 <mad> doesn't it make sense to have vram if you have ram for audio?
05:29:55 <mad> or share the audio ram between gfx and sound?
05:31:11 <mad> 8-bit ram shared between cpu and gpu might not be fast enough to run a blitter
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05:31:25 <mad> unless you're doing it in 4 colors or 2 colors
05:32:29 <zzo38> The designs can change in future of course, although currently what I have for audio is that it uses separate memory and can run in parallel with CPU/video, so CPU cannot access it (you would have to use some kind of DMA transfer modes to do it I suppose)
05:33:02 <mad> some systems have no cpu access of vram either
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05:33:17 <mad> like.. genesis I think (though it has dma for that)
05:35:34 <mad> the issue I see is that dram runs at something like 3mhz
05:35:41 <mad> which leaves 1.5mhz for the gpu
05:36:22 <mad> for NTSC that's about 96 memory accesses per scanline
05:39:46 <mad> since the active region is about 75% of the width that's like (80% on paper + 5% overdraw or something like that), 72 cycles for the actually drawn pixels
05:40:40 <mad> which means you have to draw about 4 pixels worth of graphics per byte
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06:03:04 <mad> to get 16 colors you'd need either 16bit ram, separate cpu vs gpu ram, or more modern ram that's faster if subsequent accesses fall in the same page
06:03:14 <mad> or multiple ram banks on the same address pins
06:15:01 <mad> then to draw sprites you probably have to eat into your cpu cycles or leftover gpu cycles but that's not too bad if you don't have too many large objects :3
06:18:34 <Sgeo> I think Perl6 is bad at math
06:18:35 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> m: say (1+10i) ~~ (-∞..∞)
06:18:35 <Sgeo> <camelia> rakudo-moar e39ce3: OUTPUT«True»
06:18:50 <Sgeo> Gah I hate HexChat sometimes
06:18:59 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> m: say (1+10i) ~~ (-∞..∞)
06:19:06 <Sgeo> camelia> rakudo-moar e39ce3: OUTPUT«True»
06:27:55 <mad> zzo38 : basically I've looked at this... it's hard to really have sprites on a 8bit system with shared gpu + cpu ram
06:28:06 <mad> tho c64 does it (barely)
06:30:44 <mad> and I guess the msx2 vdp does it but it has really few sprites and not very high bit depth
06:32:56 <pikhq> The C64 does it, but at the expense of the CPU not being able to read RAM as often while the screen is drawn.
06:33:52 <pikhq> The VIC ends up taking exclusive control of the bus at various points, which sucks.
06:35:37 <mad> the whole system is just kinda strapped for bandwidth
06:35:54 <mad> and it has to have an extra SRAM for the colors
06:38:47 <mad> one of the reasons the amiga can do more simply because the ram bus is 16bits instead of 8bits
06:39:21 <mad> (ok and also having proper cmos chips instead of slow nmos and enough chip space for control registers for everything :3 )
06:41:53 <zzo38> I have written the list of cycle accesses and that stuff
06:43:27 <zzo38> It is two clock cycles per pixel (which is what Digi-RGB (also another specification I made up) uses).
06:43:47 <zzo38> Here is what I have written so far: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/new.computer There is more but on paper and I have not written it into the computer yet.
06:44:57 <zzo38> As it turns out, I have exactly sixteen memory accesses needed per tile, which is what I needed.
06:45:57 <zzo38> Note that CPU and video are clock interleaved, so both have exclusive access to RAM.
06:48:54 <zzo38> Sprites are 8x8 or 8x16 and the attribute byte of a sprite consists of a 4-bit plane mask, a collision bit, a height bit, a occult bit, and a impostor bit.
06:52:51 <mad> 2 gpu clocks per pixel?
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06:53:01 <mad> which means 4 all in all?
06:54:31 <mad> that means you'd have to access ram @ 25mhz no?
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06:55:15 <zzo38> I don't know yet all of the speed, and the plans may change in future as I have said.
06:55:50 <mad> for 320x240x60, that's about 400x262x60 in terms of clock cycles if you cound hblank+vblank, that's 6.3mhz
06:55:54 <mad> pixel clock
06:56:39 <mad> which means it would have to be SRAM or something
06:57:15 <zzo38> I was thinking SRAM actually
06:57:53 <zzo38> Although changes are possible as it gets made up more, there can be whatever changes we consider necessary to correct it.
06:58:09 <mad> 640x480 quadruples this problem
06:58:27 <mad> unless it has a reduction in features
06:58:47 <zzo38> Yes, the frame rate could be reduced perhaps
06:59:05 <mad> or you could interlace it
07:01:06 <zzo38> Yes interlacing is another possibility that I have thought of, but am unsure about it. However it does seem interlacing would clearly work fine with the video registers I have defined, as the display program could be defined for an interlaced display. However, I only intended 320x240 to be used for analog output while the other modes are only for LCD
07:03:18 <zzo38> However you have mentioned some problems so I could consider how to fix it
07:05:05 <mad> it's like they used all sorts of tricks on later systems so that they could do more colors and resolution
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07:05:50 <mad> mostly more memory bits and fast page dram (=faster if accesses fall on the same page) and multiple ram areas
07:07:12 <mad> it's kinda sad that dram just got more and more complex as it sped up
07:07:21 <mad> instead of staying simple and just speeding up
07:07:47 <zzo38> That's why I avoided it, because it is too complex
07:08:35 <mad> and sram sizes are still tiny and prices kinda hair raising last time I checked :D
07:09:00 <mad> tho psram might not be too bad
07:09:50 <zzo38> What does "psram" mean?
07:10:11 <mad> pseudo static ram
07:10:27 <mad> basically dram designed to have some characteristics of static ram
07:10:46 <zzo38> Yes that might work (if I can understand it better)
07:11:16 <mad> it varies from chip to chip I think but it goes from auto-refresh, to chips that have special layout with smaller rows so that they can be read with full accesses every time
07:11:56 <mad> and I remember reading about it being used in the first Iphones (presumably to get to market faster instead of dealing with the insane timings of DDR33456)
07:14:22 <mad> afaik the genesis has psram as well
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07:54:32 <HackEgo> I can eat glass and it doesn't hurt me.
07:54:57 <b_jonas> `slashlearn glass/I can eat glass and it doesn't hurt me. -- http://www.savagechickens.com/2016/05/new-diet.html
07:58:49 <zzo38> You could implement graphical displays as either 4-plane PseudoColor XYPixmap or 15-plane TrueColor ZPixmap.
08:04:49 <zzo38> Hopefully you could see how you can do both of these things, as well as imitating PC text mode (including cursor) and VT100, by the use of the system I have designed (I have updated the document a bit).
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08:55:27 <izabera> http://i.imgur.com/xRhwA0M.jpg SPIRITS ARE ALLLWAAYS WITH YOOOUUU
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11:01:51 <fizzie> There's a warning on the menu saying "fish may contain bones", which sounds reasonable, but there's also another warning saying "olives may contain", and that's a bit more dubious.
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11:05:19 -!- int-e has set topic: The international hub of solidity matrices | May contain | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
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14:11:58 <izabera> let's found the "committee for the code that's not 100% awful"
14:12:26 <izabera> then we can give away stickers that people can add to their readme on github
14:12:41 <izabera> like "approved by CCN100A"
14:14:14 <izabera> the number of stars on github is clearly not enough to separate crap from good code
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14:57:53 <b_jonas> Hey look, Scott Aaronson replied to a question with a Kipling quote included => https://www.quora.com/Whats-your-advice-to-someone-beginning-his-her-PhD-in-Theoretical-Computer-Science/answer/Scott-Aaronson
15:00:00 <oerjan> i'm only halfway (? the list seems to keep growing) through those answers.
15:00:35 <oerjan> that may have been the one i actually skipped most of.
15:01:08 <b_jonas> oerjan: it's one of the first ones
15:01:35 <b_jonas> I think `? if isn't the same verse, but still
15:03:17 <oerjan> it was the last of Gregor's bots remaining. although maybe it'll rejoin, even if the others didn't.
15:05:13 <b_jonas> oerjan: oh, he runs bots on multiple hosts?
15:05:57 <b_jonas> I've relocated my bot to another host manually for months once when I knew the normal host wasn't available for a while, but I never tried to run them on multiple machines at once.
15:09:03 <oerjan> um i'm not talking about multiple copies of the same bot. except for glogbackup, which was supposed to only be here when glogbot isn't.
15:11:08 <b_jonas> although it would be hard to keep two copies of HackEgo in sync, because they store so much persistent mutable data
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15:12:45 <oerjan> and afaik Gregor never synced glogbot with glogbackup, even when it was working.
15:23:00 <izabera> https://github.com/davidlind/taas
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16:03:59 <HackEgo> If you can make one heap of all your winnings / And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss, / And lose, and start again at your beginnings / And never breathe a word about your loss:
16:04:33 <b_jonas> right, different verse of the same poem
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16:26:46 <\oren\> i want a port of allegro 4 to javascript
16:33:29 <b_jonas> \oren\: what's "allegro 4"?
16:34:07 <b_jonas> and why would you want a javascript port of that?
16:35:01 <\oren\> i have a much fadter computer now so i could make my old games into web games
16:35:31 <b_jonas> \oren\: but it's not your computer that matters for that, it's the computer of the people playing those games, right?
16:36:15 <\oren\> the computer i wrote them on was a ancient dell laptop from 2006
16:36:17 <b_jonas> and my computer for example isn't powerful enough. although I recently decided it's finally time to buy a new computer that's more powerful, that will still take some time because there's some more urgent stuff I have to do before.
16:37:27 <\oren\> so i think average pc today could do it in js
16:38:11 <b_jonas> is it unrealistically expensive if I want the desktop computer with a motherboard that can be expanded to up to 32 gibibytes of RAM, even if I only want to buy 8 gibibytes of RAM for it now?
16:38:38 <b_jonas> that's a rhetorical question, there's not much need to answer, I'll find out the answer when I look at specific motherboard models
16:38:46 <b_jonas> and I have more criteria I want from it
16:39:19 <b_jonas> I know it will cost a ton, and I have other things I want to spend money on, but still, it will be worth
16:39:38 <b_jonas> I want all the shiny modern hardware stuff
16:41:19 <\oren\> but i have built desktops in the past
16:41:53 <b_jonas> I also want to buy a compact camera, which sounds like it's cheaper, but actually much of the hardware of a desktop computer lasts for very long, and I can expand it by replacing only some parts (additional RAM, storage, etc) later, the costs are really the same order of magnitude.
16:43:16 <b_jonas> The camera won't sit in a room, so its hardware (especially the lens mechanics) is amortized quickly.
16:44:11 <b_jonas> I bought a surge protector yesterday
16:47:42 <fizzie> I'd buy something that I could stick at least 32 gigs in eventually.
16:47:52 <fizzie> I'd buy 16 in it to start with, even.
16:48:00 <fizzie> (This workstation's got 64.)
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17:19:46 <Taneb> https://vimeo.com/93042377
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18:14:51 <HackEgo> olist 1037: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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20:24:02 <shachaf> b_jonas did, with the grandmophone
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20:51:33 <zzo38> Now I wrote a display program for use with what my new computer design says so far, that can imitate a PC text screen without the cursor (but does implement blinking text). You can look in order to see example of its working.
20:51:47 <zzo38> I also wrote about audio working now
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21:18:29 <zzo38> Compared with Amiga, my system cannot execute instructions on the video processor during rendering (so writes to video registers can occur only between scanlines or during vblank), although I have a more complex instruction set (with sixteen instructions instead of three), although the instruction set is fully orthogonal (there are two address mode bits, two condition bits, and four instruction kind bits)
21:21:25 <zzo38> Raster bars (horizontal and vertical) effects can still be implemented though.
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21:38:09 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monadic_predicate_calculus
21:39:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: is this that older low-level computer design of yours that has the strange complicated collection of addressing modes and treats the instruction pointer a general register?
21:39:54 <int-e> Monadic first order logic is fun.
21:39:57 <zzo38> No it is a different one, and I haven't written about the CPU instrucion set
21:39:58 <b_jonas> by complicated collection of addressing modes, I mean an instruction can have two or three arguments, each of which has a variable addressing mode with a variable number of extra bytes to encode the instruction
21:40:08 <b_jonas> making it hard to decode instructions
21:40:33 <b_jonas> and that one, I thin ,had more than 16 "instructions"
21:40:52 <zzo38> The one I mean is this one: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/new.computer it isn't that complicated to decode instructions. I have written about the video processor and audio and operating system.
21:41:05 <zzo38> Note that the video processor's instruction set is not the same as the main processor's instruction set
21:42:09 <zzo38> Do you like this so far?
21:43:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh, while we're at designs for instruction sets, just out of curiosity, have you ever looked at John Savard's designs at eg. http://www.quadibloc.com/arch/perint.htm or http://www.quadibloc.com/prog/lg00.htm ?
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21:57:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: this thing you describe and call a “video processor” sounds like a auxiliary general cpu to me, which runs synchronized with the RAM acess, and that's why it runs only during hsync and vsync time. It doesn't seem like specifically a *video* processor. It doesn't have parallelism or much video-specific things.
21:57:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: also, the sentence “Video registers are read-only.” is probably a typo
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22:02:35 <zzo38> Yes; it should be write-only. I fixed it now
22:04:03 <zzo38> It is meant for programming the video registers and can execute instructions or read during rendering, what the instructions programmed it to do.
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22:22:46 <zzo38> Do you have other comments about this?
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22:39:41 <shachaf> If you have a Turing machine where the symbol on the tape is erased whenever you move left, is that equivalent to a push-down automaton?
22:40:34 <zzo38> It look it will be like the stack if you do that?
22:41:02 <int-e> do you erase the symbol you're going to or the symbol you're coming from...
22:41:44 <int-e> but assuming the lattter it should directly translate to a PDA.
22:43:27 <int-e> oh. did you intend to put input on the tape?
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22:43:59 <shachaf> Oh, I guess a PDA usually has a separate input tape.
22:47:09 <int-e> you get something quite odd when the input and the stack share a tape... because you can compare the stack size to the current input position. so recognizing { a^nb^nc^n | n in N } seems possible.
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23:18:42 <fizzie> Amazon, you're a liar.
23:19:01 <fizzie> They said they'll dispatch something on the 17th, but it's still "preparing to dispatch".
23:19:13 <shachaf> Did they say the 17th of which month?
23:19:55 <fizzie> They do say "Expected by 22 May", but that also lacks the year.
23:38:02 <int-e> Or perhaps they're just still using the Julian calendar.
23:38:18 <b_jonas> it could be UTC-39999:00:00 timezone
23:39:13 <b_jonas> I still think we could make an authentic old-timey or medieval or “eighties” or “19th century” etc theme park just by declaring it's in some time zone with a large negative offset
23:40:26 <zzo38> O, that's how you do it?
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23:41:48 <int-e> (The Julian calendar is 13 days behind the Gregorian now... no change since the October revolution)
23:48:03 <pikhq> b_jonas: I don't think a UTC-P30Y time zone is all that reasonable or authentic.
23:50:41 <oerjan> int-e: it won't change until 2100.
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23:57:50 <zzo38> Do you like the PC text imitation display program I wrote, and can you find any mistakes in it?
00:01:33 <int-e> oerjan: what I failed at was history, not the arithmetic of the two calendars.
00:03:55 <int-e> speaking of arithmetic, I still haven't convinced Isabelle that the laver tables as computed are actually shelves...
00:04:51 <int-e> Though I've come closer. I have proved the pasting modulo 2^(n-1) property.
00:12:03 <int-e> http://isabelle.in.tum.de/ ?
00:12:13 <int-e> or the property...
00:13:04 <int-e> "pasting" is misleading... it's that dropping the top bit gives a homomorphism to a smaller shelf
00:13:27 <int-e> but I think of it as pasting 4 copies of the smaller table and then tweaking the top bits.
00:13:42 <oerjan> int-e: right. also setting the top bit (or clearing, dependent on indexing)
00:14:22 <int-e> and of course all this is part of a huge induction step... I'm assuming that the smaller table is a shelf.
00:14:39 <oerjan> int-e: ok, remind me again, how do index things. it's impossible to talk about this without agreeing on that.
00:15:54 <oerjan> admittedly the convention in john baez's blog post does not fit well with the bit twiddling :(
00:15:57 <int-e> In the formalization I'm using 0..2^n - 1 as carrier and a |> 2^n - 1 = (a-1) mod 2^n ... so 2^n - 1 is the generator
00:16:20 <int-e> so the "dual" version according the the laver.hs file I made
00:16:48 <oerjan> so 0 is the left identity / right absorber.
00:17:22 <oerjan> int-e: in that case, \x -> 2^(n-1) |> x is that homomorphism you mention.
00:18:58 <int-e> Which is... obviously an homomorphism if you have a shelf.
00:19:31 <oerjan> int-e: ok, here's my idea: don't do induction in such a big step. instead, prove from the fact that {0, ..., x} is a shelf that (a) x has period a power of 2 (b) {0, ..., x+1} is a shelf.
00:20:00 <oerjan> (a) holds generally for any element of a shelf that _has_ a period.
00:21:38 <oerjan> to show (a), you can show that {x, x |> x, x |> x |> x, ..., } is isomorphic to a laver table.
00:22:39 <oerjan> (you also need that laver tables have size a power of 2 if they are shelves.)
00:22:59 <oerjan> not sure how much of this you've already proved.
00:23:29 <shachaf> Hmm, regular languages are exactly those that are recognized by a finite monoid.
00:24:16 <oerjan> (i can give you a proof for the power of 2 thing too)
00:24:34 <oerjan> (in fact that's the only part that needs something resembling "bit twiddling")
00:24:43 <int-e> I have not proved that non-powers of 2 don't work... as I currently see it, in order to prove that 2^n * o doesn't work, where o > 1 is an odd number, I first need the laver table of size 2^n.
00:26:12 <fizzie> I haven't been following the topic, so I went to see the 'pedia summary, and it was exceedingly useful: "In mathematics, Laver tables -- are tables of numbers that have certain properties."
00:26:52 <int-e> Since 2^n |> x is the first row where things go wrong.
00:27:04 <mad> what kind of system was cheaper to build in the late 80's... a system with independent 8bit DRAM for CPU and GPU, or a system with 16bit DRAM shared between CPU and GPU?
00:28:07 <int-e> fizzie: the main property is self-distributivity: a |> (b |> c) = (a |> b) |> (a |> c); an operation with that property is called a shelf.
00:29:05 <mad> I guess the 16bit system has technically fewer pins
00:29:11 <mad> but needs a beefier processor
00:29:26 <oerjan> int-e: hm let me recall the important things. first, if y is an element of a laver table, then \x -> (y+1) |> x maps the period of 2^n-1 (i.e. the whole shelf) onto the period of y.
00:31:44 <oerjan> moreover, z |> x maps to ((y+1) |> z) |> y, which means that this map _commutes_ with going to the next step in the periods.
00:32:07 <oerjan> * z |> (2^n-1) maps to
00:32:20 <tswett> shachaf: "recognized by a finite monoid"? What do you mean by that?
00:32:45 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognizable_set
00:34:06 <oerjan> int-e: from this, you can deduce that ((y+1) |>) ^{-1} (x) has the _same_ size for all x in the image. which means that the period size of y must _divide_ 2^n.
00:34:52 * oerjan might be mixing haskell and math too much here
00:36:42 <oerjan> int-e: now let, ad absurdum, {0,...,x} be a minimal laver table such that x is _not_ a power of 2. it follows that all elements _other_ than x have period a power of 2.
00:37:49 <oerjan> let 2^k be the largest such period. then 2^k divides x, and so x >= 3*2^k since it is not itself a power of 2.
00:38:45 <oerjan> but now consider y = 2^(k+1) < x. i claim that this element must have period 2^(k+1), a contradiction.
00:39:54 <oerjan> sorry, bit of off-by-ones up in there. it's x+1 that's not a power of 2.
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00:40:59 <int-e> <int-e> Since 2^n |> x is the first row where things go wrong. <--- I see that we agree on that :P
00:41:09 <int-e> (though not on the variable names)
00:41:35 <oerjan> to prove that y has period 2^(k+1), it's enough to prove that z |> y = z-1 for 0 < z <= y.
00:43:17 <int-e> Hmm, perhaps I should have written "I have not formalized" instead of "I have not proved" earlier...
00:43:27 <oerjan> but z |> y = (z-1) |> (z-1) |> ... |> (z-1) (y times), and by assumption z-1 has period a power of 2.
00:43:36 <oerjan> int-e: so do you mean you've got all this?
00:44:29 <int-e> I mean I have a pretty clear picture in my head how I could prove it... you're doing some things differently.
00:45:05 <oerjan> s/(y times)/(2^n-y times)/
00:45:20 <oerjan> messing up the indexing again.
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00:46:39 <oerjan> and the period of z divides x+1
00:47:51 <oerjan> int-e: thing is, i thought of all this using the indexing wikipedia uses.
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00:48:38 <oerjan> which actually makes more sense for expanding z |> y into a chain
00:48:52 <oerjan> (then it has length y)
00:50:29 <shachaf> What kinds of monoids recognize e.g. context-free languages?
00:50:30 <oerjan> x+1-y = x+1-2^(k+1)+1 which is 1 more than a multiple of 2^k.
00:51:14 <oerjan> so since all periods of the z involved have lengths dividing 2^k, z |> y = z-1.
00:52:32 <oerjan> which proves that y has all of {0, ..., y} as its period set, of size 2^(k+1), which contradicts the assumption that 2^k is the maximal period of elements other than x. Q.E.D. and all laver tables must have period of 2 sizes.
00:53:04 <oerjan> int-e: was that clear? >:P
00:56:47 <int-e> My feeling is that it really isn't that different from what I proposed... except that I intend to directly pick y as the largest power of 2 that divides x+1.
00:57:15 <int-e> (well, actually the next power of two)
00:57:25 <oerjan> int-e: hm i guess that might work too
01:02:58 <int-e> The real trouble with Isabelle is that concepts like "period" have to be broken down into smaller parts...
01:04:59 <int-e> there's also the minor detail that the periods are perfect... instead of having an initial part followed by a periodic one.
01:05:52 <int-e> (connected to the fact that each period starts at 0, because that's the only way to get a larger predecessor)
01:06:41 <int-e> though perhaps you have a better angle on that; there's a bit there early on that I didn't follow completely.
01:08:58 <oerjan> nah the fact you must go through 0 seems essential.
01:09:05 <int-e> I also need sleep and I should get lambdabot into shape for ghc 8 on the weekend rather than working on shelves.
01:09:32 <oerjan> i tried vaguely thinking about what would happen if a period was not perfect.
01:10:01 <oerjan> it seems then there' no reason why they would be closed as shelves.
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01:48:58 <quintopia> so who needs some friday night alcohols?
01:49:22 <mad> gotta go fast
01:52:58 <zzo38> I would think the main instruction set for my new computer design should include Muxcomp too.
01:53:19 <zzo38> I don't want the alchols
01:53:30 <mad> what's muxcomp
01:55:02 <zzo38> It is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Muxcomp
01:55:57 <zzo38> (It would probably be slow if all operations are muxcomp, unless perhaps it is used in microcodes)
01:59:00 <zzo38> The document I wrote now includes a comment about that, as well as many other changes and additions
01:59:01 <mad> zzo38 : how do you enter the 6 inputs to the operation?
01:59:04 <oerjan> quintopia: no thanks, i had a drink on tuesday
02:00:06 <zzo38> I haven't put in all of the details yet, that is just an idea so far.
02:01:01 <mad> zzo38 : ok how about
02:01:55 <mad> lea bit3, bit4*2, r0
02:01:55 <oerjan> (as you may recall, it was constitution day)
02:01:55 <shachaf> oerjan is among the cognacenti
02:02:24 <oerjan> shachaf: indeed. i have a family anecdote to the effect i was an early fan
02:02:35 <zzo38> mad: What is that? Can you explain?
02:02:47 <shachaf> "cognacenti" could be a p. good pun
02:03:26 <mad> lea bit3, bit4*2, r0
02:03:26 <mad> lea bit2, r0*2, r0
02:03:26 <mad> lea bit1, r0*2, r0
02:03:26 <mad> lea bit0, r0*2, r0
02:03:26 <mad> shr lut, r0, r0
02:03:27 <mad> and r0, $1, r0
02:04:44 <mad> in other words: combine all your conditionals into a bit addresss
02:04:59 <mad> use bitshift to put the selected bit into bit 0 of result
02:05:10 <mad> use AND to clear remaining top bits
02:05:41 <oerjan> "YouTube's designers found the previous system ineffective because the options to rate a video between two and four stars were rarely selected."
02:05:58 <oerjan> idea: a rating system where you have to earn the right to use the top and bottom ranks
02:06:59 <oerjan> (someone's probably tried it)
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02:07:11 <mad> like the system takes in your comments and computes how similar it is to troll comments
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02:07:32 <oerjan> mad: ...that's not very related...
02:07:38 <mad> and if it's not too similar and you have enough comments and ratings it lets you use double-thumbs-up and double-thumbs-down?
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02:08:00 <mad> how else do you compute people's ability to rate by machine?
02:08:55 <oerjan> mad: sorry, i didn't mean a right, a meant a quota. the idea is that you _have_ to give non-extreme rankings most of the time.
02:09:16 <oerjan> so that the rankings are forced to spread out more.
02:09:48 <moonheart08> oerjan, is there a way to change my nick on only *one* channel?
02:09:57 <oerjan> moonheart08: i don't think so.
02:10:01 <zzo38> moonheart08: IRC does not do that.
02:10:13 <mad> oerjan : oh
02:10:28 <zzo38> The NICK command is for your connection to the server. You could make a second connection possibly though?
02:10:32 <mad> then a super bar that charges up when you give thumbs up or down
02:11:12 <mad> once it's charged all the way up you get to hitconfirm combo a thumbs up into a super thumbs up
02:11:20 <zzo38> I think the unary XOR operation in INTERCAL can be used for Gray codes?
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02:14:24 <oerjan> zzo38: hm the unary xor is basically a cellular automaton on the bits as a ring, isn't it.
02:14:35 <oerjan> i suppose the unaries are too.
02:15:20 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes I think so.
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02:40:45 <zzo38> mad, b_jonas: What is your opinion on the various other ideas I have written there?
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02:44:24 <mad> how are the sprites displayed?
02:45:23 <zzo38> By the use of the sprite buffer that is filled up during the previous scanline rendering
02:45:52 <mad> how does it know which sprites are active on the current scanline?
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02:47:16 <zzo38> Because those are the ones in the sprite buffer. It is placed into the sprite buffer if the Y position is correct.
02:50:15 <zzo38> Writing to the sprite registers will affect the next scanline and not the current one, so your display program must take that into account.
02:51:01 <mad> why does it have to read sprite x y etc from memory if it has sprite registers?
02:51:46 <zzo38> The sprite registers only tell it where to find it in the memory and what the current scroll position is.
02:53:51 <mad> so it has memory reads of all the sprite data on every single scanline?
02:56:00 <mad> you don't have to fetch the sprite x y id etc if you have it in a register
02:58:25 <zzo38> Then you would need a register for each sprite I would think
02:58:50 <mad> it depends on chip generation but eventually they had enough registers for that
02:58:53 <zzo38> And it would take up many of the instruction cycles available on each scan line
02:58:58 <mad> especially on snes etc
03:03:13 <zzo38> (The design I have seems that there is exactly enough clock cycles for each pixel to read everything necessary for playfield and for sprites)
03:04:19 <zzo38> What would you think of the stuff other than the video?
03:05:06 <mad> why is audio frequency in periods?
03:05:46 <zzo38> Why shouldn't it be? That is what many computers did, I think?
03:06:23 <mad> it depends on chip generation
03:06:53 <mad> if you're doing few channels of square waves then periods is simpler yes
03:07:21 <mad> once you start doing like 6 and 8 channels and FM synthesis and samples then frequency is simpler
03:10:38 <zzo38> To do anything with audio you would need to load a audio program into the audio processor, which would implement whatever you need.
03:13:23 <mad> does this require the audio cpu to busy write into the channels all the time?
03:14:45 <zzo38> Not all the time, because there is a period and it only has to write once the period has expired.
03:15:52 <mad> that's all the time
03:16:37 <mad> it can't do anything longer than one sample or else channels will start glitching :o
03:17:01 <zzo38> Each channel has separate registers
03:17:47 <zzo38> Although you could also add data together and put into one channel.
03:17:51 <mad> so the cpu has to keep 4 channels filled all the time
03:18:43 <zzo38> The audio processor runs independently from the main processor so it does not take cycles away from the main processor, because it has its own memory too.
03:18:43 <mad> zzo38 : that would be hard too since you have to mix all the channels in less than 1 sample every time
03:20:31 <zzo38> They have been able to do it in PC, which has only one channel and a slower clock rate.
03:20:53 <zzo38> (And this is together with graphics.)
03:21:12 <zzo38> My own design it is independent from graphics so it can clearly do more stuff.
03:22:47 <mad> on PC they have a DMA channel
03:23:48 <mad> like you can compute a whole 256 sample block, send it to the card and do all sorts of other stuff while the sound card slowly goes through it
03:24:01 <zzo38> No I mean on the original PC that had only PIT for sound
03:24:08 <mad> and you even get an interrupt to refill it when half the block is done
03:24:15 <mad> zzo38 : yes and it sucked
03:27:45 <zzo38> I know it isn't very good that is why I did mine more better
03:29:37 <zzo38> Did you find any mistake in the display program I wrote for imitating a PC text screen?
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03:38:38 <zzo38> And what think you think about the other stuff I wrote about keyboard, game control, and operating system?
03:39:08 <mad> didn't read too much about those
03:49:46 <zzo38> Now you can read it
04:07:43 <mad> I'd concentrate on the parts you can implement on an fpga first
04:16:13 <zzo38> That is one way, although many of the things I had written about are separate from what would be done by FPGA
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05:52:30 <hppavilion[1]> In n-chess, you play normal chess, but upon capture, a game of [n-1]-chess is played to calculate success. White is the attacking piece, black is the defending piece.
05:56:08 <shachaf> zzo38 has invented many Chess variants.
05:58:37 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Mine requires you to play chess to play chess. I think I win.
06:03:46 <shachaf> Omega is an ordinal, but Chess has bishops, so cardinals seem more appropriate.
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07:08:05 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: what value of n should be the "default" initial match?
07:11:28 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: how about MWI-chess: when a capture is made, a new game with identical pre-move state is spun off in which the capture never happened and the capturing player loses a turn. all spun-off games must be played simultaneously, though each forked game adds to the game clock half the length of time that was added for its parent
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07:12:45 <quintopia> the winner is the player that won the majority of games by the time all games are completed or one player's time expires. (said player obviously loses all unfinished games if time expires)
07:13:03 <mad> analog paper chess... the pieces are lines on a sheet of paper... movement is prolongating the lines... capture is crossing the other player's line
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07:14:27 <quintopia> like...this doesnt really sound like chess
07:14:59 <quintopia> unless pieces still move like pieces and the "lines" are their loci of past movements
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12:28:29 <gamemanj> is that a serial port configuration?
12:28:40 <fizzie> What else could it possibly be?
12:28:50 <fizzie> (I'm just using the channel as a convenient note pad.)
12:29:31 <gamemanj> fizzie: if you're going to prune rare words from models, why leave placeholders, instead of removing the nodes entirely?
12:29:56 <gamemanj> or, better, work out the *type* of word and substitute it for a random word that sort-of-fits.
12:31:07 <gamemanj> Like for example: The megalomaniac with his butler tried to take over the world, becomes: The dynamic with his apple tried to make over the rabbit.
12:31:17 <fizzie> I am, I'm just using a set of one type as the list of types I handle.
12:31:40 * gamemanj gets out his pocket dictionary and adds an "adj." meaning to "fnord"
12:31:57 <fizzie> More realistically, that'd be a lot of effort.
12:34:05 <gamemanj> anyway, it probably would be quite a bit of work to identify the word being removed...
12:34:54 <gamemanj> but then it's just a matter of picking a word from a list.
12:35:08 <gamemanj> Or is this logic implemented in the Befunge layer?
12:35:20 <fizzie> The synthesis part, that is. Not the model building.
12:35:42 <gamemanj> As in, where do rare words get pruned?
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12:37:06 <fizzie> *That's* during model building, of course. But even something as simple as "have models contain a set of tokens that can be replaced by a word randomly selected from a model-specific list" -- which would happen at synthesis time -- isn't all that trivial to implement in Befunge. Especially if you'd need to edit existing code to do it.
12:37:18 <fizzie> The babbling is lines 125-161 of https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
12:37:19 <fungot> fizzie: yes. just like yo fnord agua is another way to do that
12:39:00 <gamemanj> Well, why not choose the random words during model building?
12:39:42 <gamemanj> It's all random anyway, so I doubt anyone would notice.
12:39:49 <fizzie> Oh. I guess. But then it's always the same word.
12:39:59 <fizzie> People do notice patterns in some of the smaller-corpus models.
12:40:02 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
12:40:09 <fizzie> fungot: Can that sword alone stop it?
12:40:09 <fungot> fizzie: as long as you keep crono in your heart, the day of lavos"... go to " leene square" 1000 a.d.? yes, i'd have done something very brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
12:40:09 <fungot> gamemanj: i see. you know, i really care... a time portal? what in the...! ozzie's stumped!
12:40:34 <fizzie> "magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope." keeps being repeated a lot.
12:41:16 <gamemanj> True, but on smaller corpus models you might not want to remove rare words.
12:41:32 <fizzie> Well, that's true. I haven't done it for those.
12:42:00 <gamemanj> So on smaller corpus models you aren't removing words anyway, and on larger corpus models the space is big enough that it wouldn't be as noticable.
12:42:25 <fizzie> I'll keep that in mind if I ever can bother to retrain the irc style.
12:42:59 * gamemanj wonders how long the IRC style took in CPU time, given the history of #esoteric
12:43:34 <HackEgo> 111) <fungot> ais523: elf corpses are not considered expensive health food. but the most expensive.
12:45:00 <fizzie> I think a larger fraction of it is ##scheme.
12:45:59 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
12:46:07 <gamemanj> ...does this have anything to do with NH4?
12:46:09 <fizzie> fungot: Your quote-file quotes are so good, why can't you be brilliant like that all the time?
12:46:10 <fungot> fizzie: nalfeshnee: not only by birth but also by law", ector said facing arthur. the leprechaun's two great loves are tobacco and whiskey, and at the blasphemy. he was such a way that it becomes porous to inert material.
12:46:45 <fizzie> fungot: I didn't know that about leprechauns.
12:46:45 <fungot> fizzie: issek: now issek of the weaker forms of demon. it is ready to be a sasquatch inn near the town level of the wizard and his fellow titans were ousted from mount olympus. ( the jungle still.
12:55:15 <fizzie> `quote stop programming
12:55:17 <HackEgo> 1164) <fungot> boily: i'll probably stop programming the day i will hit the end of the program.
12:55:59 <fizzie> `quote serious proportions
12:56:02 <HackEgo> 1181) <fungot> kmc: madam president, i have taken on serious proportions.
12:57:16 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
12:57:33 <fizzie> fungot: What is your stance on the upcoming UK referendum on Brexit?
12:57:35 <fungot> fizzie: the gradual and controlled implementation of the budget, but i do miss one aspect, namely communication with the public and the slovak government. criticism is clearly not a democratic country. this therefore means that we can create a job with a smaller management or perhaps with a view to guaranteeing and expressing the higher interest and security of payments requires products to be tested, we must take account of th
12:58:03 <fizzie> fungot: But are you for or against it?
12:58:05 <fungot> fizzie: madam president, commissioner, i hope that we can begin programming and implementing aid, that we are only recommending the level of employment in some of the problems we are now ready to establish technical requirements, specifically amendments nos 9 and 10. they all aim to exclude certain sectors from their advantages, consumer protection and especially its rapporteur, mrs marinucci, have done, then i am quite aware t
12:58:20 <fizzie> Typical politician, never says anything straight.
13:01:40 <gamemanj> Why say things people can understand...
13:01:46 <gamemanj> when you can say things people can't understand?
13:08:24 <fizzie> (Proper settings for getting a serial console out of a SparcStation 5.)
13:09:27 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/gMNa doesn't look too good, though.
13:11:14 <f10d4> have ss4, ss5, sparcserver5, ss10, ss20
13:11:33 <f10d4> with reversed gender serial connectors
13:12:15 <fizzie> Yeah, I had to get a gender changer to get at the serial console.
13:12:33 <f10d4> we have tons of db25->rj45 converters
13:12:47 <gamemanj> I'm sure this'll make lovely out of context reading.
13:12:58 <f10d4> with them, we can use those with blue cisco cables
13:13:10 <f10d4> and also we have tons of 13w3 sun crts
13:13:23 <f10d4> and 13w3 cables, 13w3->dsub15 adaptors
13:13:26 <fizzie> I have a 13w3-to-4xBNC monitor cable that I used to use, but no monitors that'd take those in, since I got rid of the CRT that did.
13:13:39 <f10d4> 4xbnc thing rules!
13:13:59 <f10d4> we also have bnc crts
13:14:01 <gamemanj> where did you *get* all of those?
13:14:39 <f10d4> in Hungary, everywhere. We have a huge collection of ibm pc, 286, 186, 386, 486, risc, vax, ppc, sparc, ultrasparc, alpha etc vintage hardware
13:14:54 <f10d4> cca 20-25 cubicmeters
13:14:59 <int-e> tweaking travis configurations is so annoying.
13:15:12 <fizzie> I also have this SGI Indy with its associated 13w3 CRT monitor, but it doesn't want to play along with the SS5.
13:15:14 <int-e> tweak... push... build... look at error... repeat
13:15:39 <f10d4> fizzie: lamma, 13w3 connectors can cause damage with inappropriate device
13:15:48 <f10d4> there are at least 4 13w3 pinout standards
13:15:50 <fizzie> I'm trying to get rid of all this stuff, that's why I'm trying to get it to boot, so I could properly wipe the drives. (Got nothing else that speaks SCSI.)
13:15:54 <f10d4> sgi, apple, sun, next, ibm
13:16:32 <gamemanj> that doesn't sound like standards
13:16:41 <gamemanj> in fact, that sounds like not-standards
13:16:48 <f10d4> okay gooby, lets modify: "standarses"
13:17:38 <f10d4> well, become ontopic
13:17:58 <f10d4> i am goint to publish proofs of turing-completeness of some ancient languages, shell envs
13:18:11 <f10d4> not necessarily unixish shells
13:18:32 <f10d4> we organize coding golf tournaments at our employer
13:18:51 <f10d4> and at the prizegiving ceremony, a presentation will be performed
13:19:06 <f10d4> and selected results will be provided. for example: here
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13:57:42 <HackEgo> Akaibu: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
13:59:15 <APic> Colooooouuuuurs!
13:59:28 * APic grins maniacally.
14:02:58 <lambdabot> Local time for APic is Sat May 21 15:02:57 2016
14:03:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
14:04:07 <APic> Finally arrived in one of the good Realtimes. ;)))
14:04:17 <int-e> finally, build passed.
14:04:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
14:06:19 <boily> int-ello. you built APic?
14:06:42 <boily> APic: where you at now? how many liters of coffee in your bloodstream?
14:06:47 <int-e> no, travis built the git version of lambdabot for two ghc versions (7.8.4 and 7.10.3).
14:06:54 <APic> Munich Obergiesing Bahnhof, none at all.
14:07:06 <APic> Bad Experiences with that one.
14:07:15 <int-e> after way too many failures
14:07:39 * boily mapoles APic for his penitence
14:07:55 <int-e> the last one was not putting happy on the path when I switched to getting it from hvr's repository...
14:08:13 <APic> No definitions found for "mapole", perhaps you mean:
14:08:13 <APic> gcide: Maple Maypole
14:08:13 <APic> wn: maple maypole
14:08:16 <fizzie> Gah, the Sparc netboot thing is annoying. It sends a RARP query, then tries to fetch the image from whatever server responds over TFTP using the path /[ip in hex].[architecture].
14:08:22 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6' by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
14:10:12 <APic> Had a Great-Aunt there
14:10:17 <APic> She passed away a few Years ago.
14:12:03 <boily> fizzie: fizziello. you work on a sparc?
14:13:21 -!- Opodeldoc has quit (Read error: Connection timed out).
14:13:45 <APic> Will meet my two best Friends.
14:15:11 * boily likes biking in the middle of the night, when it's all quiet and the weather's just right
14:19:27 <fizzie> boily: I'm trying to clean up the disks on a Sparc so that I could get rid of it, and while it does boot from the disks, I have no idea what sort of passwords it might accept (been a while), so I need to boot it from *somewhere* to get at it.
14:19:46 <fizzie> The network seems like the only feasible choice, since I don't have anything else to stick the disks to.
14:21:20 <fizzie> Although I'm not sure what I should have it boot from the network. I have OpenBSD on it, but the OpenBSD installation diskless boot involves setting up the installation root fs to be served over NFS, and that's even more of a hassle.
14:22:41 <fizzie> I wouldn't mind easier ideas. Something I could do from the OpenPROM boot prompt would be great.
14:23:59 -!- tromp_ has joined.
14:24:33 <fizzie> (But I don't think that thing really has any filesystem drivers.)
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14:37:51 <fizzie> Also, re biking: best biking is the one from Assembly to home. It's usually around 3-4am-ish, Assembly is in August which means it's warm (but not too) and light out, and for some reason there's always a bunch of rabbits on the way.
14:38:25 <fizzie> "This system has relatively little free memory, so it will enter low memory mode. Among other things, this means that this program will proceed in English. You should set up swap space as soon as possible."
14:38:35 <fizzie> Man, 32 megs just doesn't go as far as it used to.
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14:42:00 <gamemanj> that can be applied to just about any unit of memory
14:42:06 <gamemanj> 64k doesn't go as far as it used to
14:42:56 <gamemanj> It's like as if the OS expands to take up anything available
14:43:41 <gamemanj> And then the programs finish the rest
14:43:41 <fizzie> I booted the debian etch installer (at least it's got an initrd attached), but I don't know how to provide boot parameters, so it booted to the menu-based installer, which keeps asking all kinds of irrelevant questions.
14:44:03 <gamemanj> does your keyboard have ctrl and alt?
14:44:14 <gamemanj> (and do you have virtual terminals?)
14:44:17 <fizzie> It's a serial console.
14:44:41 <gamemanj> here, you'll need it for the labyrinth
14:44:52 <fizzie> It also takes a second or two to move from one screen to another, because it prints a screenful of spaces at 9600 bps.
14:45:11 <fizzie> I'm sure I'll reach the menu eventually, but the expert mode would've made this a lot nicer.
14:45:51 <gamemanj> at least it's only a second or two
14:46:59 <fizzie> Yeah, after failing to download anything I got the "go back" option, which went to the menu and let me start a shell.
14:47:51 <fizzie> ...of course there are no disk devices...
14:48:01 <fizzie> I guess that part of the installer comes later.
14:49:02 <fizzie> Yeah, it'll want to download *that* from the network. Bah.
14:49:33 <gamemanj> well, I do have some good news - I just got word from the labyrinth guards, the minotaur's busy dealing with an author who wrote fanfic of Greek Mythology, so you'll be ok.
14:50:10 <int-e> just don't lose the thread
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14:54:55 <fizzie> I gave it some networks, and it downloaded *something*. Now I'll need to manage to break out back to the menu at some point somehow.
14:55:54 <gamemanj> well, if you type "exit", you'll probably either find yourself in the menu or find yourself in a meta-labyrinth. Have fun!
14:57:46 <fizzie> There's no place to type anything anywhere, it's all just selecting choices.
14:58:28 <gamemanj> ...so you're already in a menu?
14:58:51 <gamemanj> yes, but you said you started a shell...
14:59:01 <fizzie> Yes, but I had to go back to the menu to get anything done.
14:59:12 <fizzie> It didn't have any block devices except the ramdisk.
14:59:18 <gamemanj> So which menu do you want to break out to?
14:59:51 <fizzie> Well, I mean. I went back to the Debian installer menu, to follow along a few more steps (download installer components from the network).
15:00:01 <int-e> . o O ( The S-hell... a text adventure by #esoteric. )
15:00:13 <fizzie> Now I'm at the "Detecting disks and all other hardware" step, which I'd rather like to pass.
15:00:16 <ais523> int-e: I started work on an esolang-based text adventure years ago
15:00:25 <fizzie> But after that a shell would be nice.
15:00:39 <fizzie> As a positive sign, the external HD box is booting up the drives, so I think it indeed is enumerating drives.
15:01:11 <ais523> int-e: I didn't get very far; it has one brainfuck-based puzzle, one SMETANA-based puzzle, and one INTERCAL-based puzzle
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15:01:20 <ais523> but none of them do anything when you complete them because I didn't write any more
15:01:25 <ais523> (and all three are accessible from the start)
15:01:47 <fizzie> "If there are no problems, the user will never see the installer menu, but will simply answer questions for each component in turn."
15:01:53 <fizzie> That's nice, but I'd like the menu.
15:02:20 <fizzie> "[If you're installing over a serial console], there is also an Execute a Shell item on the main menu that can be used to start a shell."
15:02:28 <fizzie> That's nice as well, but you just said I won't see the menu.
15:02:35 <fizzie> There's probably a trick to it.
15:03:15 <fizzie> "Power users may be more comfortable with a menu-driven interface, where each step is controlled by the user rather than the installer performing each step automatically in sequence. To use the installer in a manual, menu-driven way, add the boot argument priority=medium."
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15:03:35 <fizzie> That's a nice trick, but I don't know how to specify boot arguments when doing the netboot thing.
15:04:14 <fizzie> It's a bit of a moot point, anyway, in that it seems to have gotten stuck at 2% of the "Detecting disks and other hardware" pass.
15:04:34 <fizzie> It's "oading [sic] module 'esp' for 'ESP SCSI'..."
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15:05:24 <gamemanj> maybe the installer should just accept <ESC>^C...
15:05:35 <gamemanj> that would make things simpler
15:06:11 <gamemanj> (And why on earth would "priority=medium" have anything to do with how the installer acts?)
15:06:13 <fizzie> Possibly it ran out of memory and killed something. There was a lot of components it was loading.
15:06:49 <fizzie> They did caution me to enable some swap "as soon as possible", but that's a bit hard before loading the SCSI drivers.
15:07:01 <fizzie> Maybe I need an older Debian.
15:07:24 <fizzie> I mean, etch is what, 2007? That's pretty modern.
15:07:57 <gamemanj> At least you know the module name now.
15:09:08 <int-e> haha. "Puppy Linux is designed to be extremely lightweight. When installed to a USB flash drive, it consumes only 100 MB of space — 256 MB if you want the version with a full OpenOffice office suite instead of more lightweight office applications. Puppy Linux is loaded to your computer’s RAM [...]"
15:09:32 <gamemanj> "100 MB" is lightweight these days?
15:10:16 <int-e> well, "old computers" have 1 GB of RAM these days.
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15:11:46 <gamemanj> If they were really trying to be minimal, they'd just use text mode...
15:11:59 -!- diginet has joined.
15:12:06 <int-e> (old laptops may go as low as 512 MB I suppose)
15:12:16 <ais523> IMO 1.44MB should be the standard for incredibly minimal OSes
15:13:29 <int-e> "From starting the installation to booting our new Linux system, only 30 minutes had passed - very impressive"
15:13:45 <fizzie> Nobody wants to tell me how to specify kernel boot command line to this thing.
15:14:02 <int-e> (source: http://www.tuxradar.com/content/archives-best-distros-2000 )
15:14:12 <fizzie> Except this one page which says you use a "bootparamd" server to do it.
15:14:24 <fizzie> http://znark.com/tech/netbootsparc.html
15:15:09 <fizzie> But I don't know if that's just for Solaris boot params, I *assume* it's up to the boot loader (the thing you load over TFTP) to do that part.
15:16:33 <fizzie> "If you were booting from the network, you would append the string onto the end of the boot net command in OBP --" can it really be that easy?
15:17:06 -!- feliks has joined.
15:18:40 <fizzie> ok boot net debconf/priority=medium DEBIAN_FRONTEND=text
15:18:41 <fizzie> Boot device: /iommu/sbus/ledma@5,8400010/le@5,8c00000 File and args: debconf/priority=medium DEBIAN_FRONTEND=text
15:18:46 <fizzie> Huh, would you look at that.
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15:20:05 <fizzie> "tettinegc huop[ f7i]l:e sUynsitmepml,e mpelnetaesde SwPaAiRtC .s.y.s em call 188"
15:20:10 <fizzie> Nice interleaved output there.
15:20:31 <boily> fungot: can you decipher that?
15:20:31 <fungot> boily: mr president, i hope, ladies and gentlemen, finally the summit concluded with a result that clearly improves on the proposals we made back in 1989. associated with this, i believe that the best way of undertaking such work.
15:21:02 <fizzie> "Cannot load frontend module /usr/lib/cdebconf/frontend/text.so" I think the installer manual lied to me about existing frontends.
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15:23:45 <int-e> fungot: I don't think fizzie's sparc is quite that old.
15:23:45 <fungot> int-e: mr president, the election of the new millennium have been marked by a whole series of provisions which are obviously aberrations in this case we really did make a very clear message to the rest of the year, so that we can accept in principle amendments nos 34 and 43, which are our own and genuinely try to achieve a balanced text, which has just been murdered in pristina.
15:28:43 <int-e> (the year should be 1994 or later for a sparcstation 5)
15:29:31 <fizzie> int-e: Hard to say, the IDPROM "date of manufacture" field had turned into all-bits-10101010 just like everything else in it.
15:30:17 <int-e> I'm going by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARCstation#.22Pizzabox.22_systems
15:30:29 <fizzie> I think that's technically Tue Aug 19 21:50:34 UTC 1924 but that's a bit dubious.
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15:31:09 <int-e> 0xAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
15:31:13 <fizzie> Bah. The Sarge installer fails to download any files.
15:31:28 <int-e> (I think it's screaming at you in hexadecimal)
15:32:41 <fizzie> Format/Type: aa aa Ethernet: aa aa aa aa aa aa Date: aa aa aa aa
15:32:45 <fizzie> Serial: aa aa aa Checksum: aa Reserved: aa aa aa aa aa aa aa aa aa aa aa aa aa aa aa aa
15:32:48 <fizzie> That got a bit of extra spaces, I think.
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15:58:38 <dmberez> can someone advice info about kundalini yoga?
16:00:29 <HackEgo> dmberez: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
16:00:35 <fizzie> ^ I think you might be looking for one of those other channels.
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16:12:32 <lambda-11235> Is there a channel for programming language design and theory?
16:29:09 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye).
17:14:31 <fizzie> Progress: by turning off the external SCSI drive enclosure, and starting a shell *before* the "detect disks" step, I managed to -- by manually loading scsi_mod, esp and scsi_sd -- read bytes off the internal disk. Now I just need to figure out the external enclosure.
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18:03:50 <int-e> hey, news from my CaC server: "ext2fs_open2: Bad magic number in super-block"
18:10:43 <fizzie> The one HackEgo is on seems to have been booted.
18:11:01 <fizzie> Oh, that means the wiki bridge is down.
18:11:36 <int-e> oh well, let's see whether a new VM does the trick :P
18:12:23 <fizzie> The only slightly suspicious message on there so far is [ 2591.369655] hrtimer: interrupt took 49110777 ns
18:14:16 <int-e> http://sprunge.us/YOIK is what I had.
18:14:40 <int-e> (I did not save any complete log. I'm still regarding the whole thing as a toy.)
18:23:21 <int-e> it's funny that they set up /etc/apt/sources.list to fetch debian stable, but security updates for wheezy?
18:24:13 -!- Opodeldoc has joined.
18:25:37 <fizzie> Huh. There's insmod, but no rmmod.
18:26:00 <shachaf> welcome to kernel california
18:26:24 <fizzie> But there's no sys... hey, there is a sysfs.
18:26:33 <fizzie> Then I can maybe do the normal SCSI bus rescan.
18:26:55 <int-e> well, rmmod is tricky... :)
18:27:03 <int-e> you need to release resources etc.
18:27:51 <fizzie> echo '- - -' > /sys/class/scsi_host/host1/scan
18:27:53 <fizzie> Kernel panic - not syncing: Aiee, killing interrupt handler!
18:28:01 <fizzie> That's not maybe so good.
18:28:41 <coppro> shachaf: we are all prisoners here of our own /dev
18:29:11 <fizzie> Wonder what exactly happened, it worked fine (based on command-line messages) when OpenBSD was driving it.
18:30:32 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
18:37:00 <\oren\> Are there any examples where a programming language is simply a spelling reform of a previous one?
18:37:51 <zzo38> \oren\: I wouldn't know, although I have seen similar things before
18:37:54 <\oren\> I was thinking, what if I made a new language that is simply APL but ---
18:38:03 <zzo38> (J is not quite APL actually, I think?)
18:38:33 <zzo38> C-INTERCAL can accept English and Latin keywords, originally it was English
18:38:42 <\oren\> damn it every time I come up with an awesome idea it's already been done
18:39:51 <zzo38> I think it is call "Bob Profit Principle" is what I have heard it call when, if you think of something, probably someone else has already done too.
18:40:28 <shachaf> one day, your awesome ideas will get their comeuppance
18:41:05 <shachaf> zzo38: The only Google search results for that phrase are IRC logs of you talking about it.
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18:41:19 <zzo38> Well, do you like some of my ideas? (I have had many kind of ideas too (but so has other people of course); some may be bad but some is good thing too, I think)
18:41:32 <zzo38> (And in some cases time must tell if it is good or not)
18:41:58 <zzo38> shachaf: You cannot find everything on Google
18:42:18 <shachaf> fizzie: blasphemer alert hth
18:42:40 <mad> some of the incompatibility between msvc and gcc is basically spelling stuff
18:42:42 <shachaf> zzo38: I think some of your ideas are completely new.
18:43:30 <zzo38> Yes, probably some are, at least.
18:43:54 <zzo38> mad: Yes, although you can use #define and #ifdef and #include in a C code.
18:44:28 <mad> and it sucks but yeah
18:44:42 <mad> there's also the 64bit 'long' debacle
18:45:02 <shachaf> zzo38: Why is it called that?
18:45:13 <gamemanj> once upon a time they had long
18:45:19 <gamemanj> but they didn't think long was long enough
18:45:27 <shachaf> zzo38: Is it some sort of market efficiency thing?
18:45:34 <zzo38> shachaf: Do you mean Bob Profit Principle? I think it is someone's name.
18:45:44 <gamemanj> and long long long long long long long long
18:45:56 <shachaf> Someone is named Bob Profit?
18:46:07 <zzo38> Yes, I think "Profit" is his name.
18:46:25 <gamemanj> zzo38: are you sure this isn't a spam email
18:46:40 <mad> it's down to the fact that win32 used to be, well, win16
18:46:57 <zzo38> It isn't an email message
18:47:17 <mad> which means int was 16 bits when they came up with a lot of win32 interfaces, so they used long for 32 bits
18:47:47 <gamemanj> mad: is this why Windows API writers have a love affair with calling 32 bits a DWORD
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18:48:26 <mad> well, it's like how every library has its
18:48:35 <mad> GLUINT32 GLINT16 etc
18:48:51 <mad> like, this was way before stdint.h
18:49:00 <zzo38> I thought it is called DWORD in the x86 instruction set?
18:49:27 <mad> yes dword is the traditional name for 32bit integers in the x86 world
18:49:43 <mad> especially the assembler guys
18:49:53 <gamemanj> zzo38: well, the assemblers call it that - the assembly is descended from realmode assembly, which ofc had 16-bit as WORD...
18:50:06 <mad> gcc has a different evolutionary path
18:50:52 <mad> it comes from like unix servers and SPARC workstations and stuff like that, so it was more or less always 32 bits
18:51:00 <mad> so it uses int
18:51:31 <zzo38> SQLite has its own 64-bit type, but it doesn't have its own types for 32-bits and 16-bits (for 32-bits it just uses int, for a pointer to a string of 16-bit characters it uses void*)
18:52:07 <gamemanj> TBH, I think mixed mode architectures only really exist because of 1. "compact instructions" (for ARM Thumb), and 2. proprietary software (because otherwise they could just introduce a new mode and have everybody recompile)
18:52:26 <mad> so it could upgrade long to 64 bits without breaking a metric ton worth of grody windows.h win-16 inherited interfaces
18:53:24 <mad> gamemanj : it's just the fate of long-living architectures
18:53:26 <zzo38> gamemanj: But some programs may be written in assembly language, so it can apply even to free software in some cases.
18:53:47 <mad> it's 16 bits and eventually it gets bumped up to 32 bits, and then to 64 bits
18:54:10 <\oren\> I remeber looking at the source for that and being like NOPE
18:54:24 <mad> did zsnes ever even run in real mode?
18:54:26 <zzo38> (But also in some cases you can easily emulate older instruction sets)
18:54:31 <mad> I'm pretty sure it was always 32bits
18:54:50 <gamemanj> mad: that's not the point, it's the fact it won't be going anywhere anytime soon in terms of porting
18:54:55 <\oren\> right but how much work would it take to change it to 64 bit?
18:54:59 <zzo38> The original 8088 instruction set look OK to me but they made an extreme mess of the new one.
18:55:18 <mad> \oren\ : why would you port zsnes to 64 bit?
18:55:36 <mad> it's not like it addresses more than 4gb of data
18:55:44 <\oren\> mad: uh... i guess you woldn't do that
18:56:17 <\oren\> but if x86-64 hadn't been backward compatible you would have to
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18:56:39 <olsner> maybe you'd port it for more registers and rip-relative addressing, or e.g. because it's easier to make a native 64-bit package than to rely on multilib and 32-bit compat
18:57:05 <mad> \oren\ : if x86-64 wasn't backwards compatible then it wouldn't be x86
18:57:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish 2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=47056 * M654 * (+987) Created page with "Deadfish 2 is a superset of [[Deadfish]] made by [[User:M654|m654]]. As well as an accumulator, Deadfish 2 has a string which can be set using the input command. == Commands..."
18:57:33 <mad> and I guess it would be kinda silly too since you could come up with a cleaner architecture if you're starting anew
18:58:11 <olsner> they actually tried that, but what they came up with was Itanium :P
18:58:24 <mad> itanium was worse than x86
18:59:45 <mad> intel tried to start new architectures that could potentially replace x86 4 times... and only one of them was actually better than x86 (i960)
19:00:17 <zzo38> Other instruction set, invented by Knuth, is MMIX
19:00:49 <zzo38> MMIX has the advantage of being 100% patent free.
19:01:40 <xkapastel> mmix has the disadvantage of not actually being a serious instruction set
19:02:07 <mad> if itanium was just a MIPS ripoff like what everybody else did, it wouldn't have shipped late, and it wouldn't have been slower than pa-risc2 and pentium3 and athlon, and even if the first generation of chips sucked they could've actually improved them much more easily
19:03:44 <mad> but they tried to be smart
19:04:39 <Phantom_Hoover> i still love how x86 chips these days are RISC running dynamically translated bytecode
19:05:10 <mad> Phantom_Hoover : it depends on what you call 'RISC'
19:05:40 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Yes and that is stupid in my opinion
19:06:00 <mad> no it's not stupid, imho that's why they have the fastest CPUs
19:06:04 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, can't really see any other way for things to work out
19:06:09 <mad> imho the real frontier is that CISC has load+compute operations
19:06:21 <mad> which x86 has but none of the RISCs do
19:06:44 <mad> recent x86 designs benefit from this
19:06:57 <mad> you get 2 operations for the price of 1
19:07:21 <mad> that's how the athlon was the same speed as the 4-way-ooo Dec Alpha
19:07:41 <mad> even though the dec alpha was 4 IPC and then athlon was 3 IPC
19:08:28 <mad> plus the athlon only had 8 logical registers instead of 32 and it didn't have opcodes with different destination than source
19:09:07 <mad> the advantage of having a free memory load (and potentially even a store) in every opcode offsets these disadvantages
19:09:41 -!- Elronnd has changed nick to AmyBSD.
19:09:50 <mad> plus the overly compact encoding means you get more code cache for the same data size
19:10:06 -!- AmyBSD has changed nick to Elronnd.
19:10:20 <mad> of course the overly compact encoding means it can only do 3 instructions per cycle instead of 4 :D
19:10:52 <mad> so I wouldn't call x86 chips RISC
19:11:02 <mad> they're basically really fast CISC
19:11:36 <mad> of course they rename all registers and break down everything into microcodes... well, really fast RISCs do that too
19:12:03 <Phantom_Hoover> my understanding was that the uops are pretty risc-like
19:12:55 <mad> sortof... I think core2 has 2-in-1 uops
19:13:25 <mad> so a load+compute op decodes to "1 uop made out of 2 parts"
19:14:09 <mad> but uops have renamed registers and stuff like that
19:14:27 <mad> they're only risc-like because they do 1 thing in 1 cycle... but that's what an uop is
19:15:24 <mad> like, I guess what risc means is that you remove as many multi-uop opcodes as possible
19:15:40 <mad> because most aren't really worth the trouble
19:15:54 <mad> although ARM has multi-uop opcodes
19:16:41 <mad> so once you're down to uops, then everything is sorta risc-like yes... but that's normal, uops are like that
19:17:32 <Phantom_Hoover> so what's the advantage of having a 'free' memory load in an instruction?
19:19:15 <mad> it takes 1 less instruction to get your result
19:19:45 <mad> so for instance, to match the speed of the 4-op per cycle core2, you'd need a 5 or 6 op per cycle risc
19:20:01 <mad> it lowers the number of register file accesses
19:20:49 <mad> add r0, [r8 + 16] reads 2 times and writes 1 time;
19:21:13 <mad> load r1, [r8 + 16] add r0, r1 reads 4 times and writes 2 times
19:21:29 <mad> so you need a larger register file with more ports
19:21:47 <mad> and yes it tends to take up less space in the instruction cache
19:22:01 <Phantom_Hoover> might you not end up getting the same microcode for both of those, though
19:22:28 <gamemanj> I suggest we all switch to DCPU-16!
19:22:40 <mad> well, you can do the CISC version in 1 micro-op
19:23:00 <zzo38> Does anyone make a 83-key Model F keyboard anymore?
19:23:05 <Phantom_Hoover> i suggest we all switch to whatever the fuck skullcode runs so i get some closure on the damn thing
19:23:17 <mad> the RISC version is 2 micro-ops no matter how you do it
19:23:26 <\oren\> ââââââââââââââ»ï»¿â¼ï»¿â½ï»¿â¾ï»¿â¿ï»¿â´ï»¿âµï»¿â¶ï»¿â·ï»¿â¸ï»¿â¹ï»¿âºï»¿ê¨ï»¿ê©ï»¿êªï»¿ê«ï»¿ê¬ï»¿êê®ï»¿ê¯ï»¿ê°ï»¿ê±ï»¿ê²ï»¿ê³ï»¿ê´ï»¿êµï»¿ê¶ï»¿ê·ï»¿ê¸ï»¿ê¹ï»¿êºï»¿ê»ï»¿ê¼ï»¿êêêêêêêêêêêêêêêêêêêêê¨ï»¿ê©ï»¿êªï»¿ê«ï»¿ê¬ï»¿êãããã
19:23:31 <mad> because you have to write to the register file twice
19:23:59 <Phantom_Hoover> mad, i guess my thinking was, wouldn't the CISC version have to load the memory into some intermediate place on the chip regardless
19:24:19 <mad> yes but this intermediate place on the chip can be in the middle of the pipeline
19:24:26 <zzo38> To me, a lot of the complicated stuff in newer instruction sets is very stupid, I think. So I must design it differently
19:24:29 <mad> it never has to rename this internmediate place
19:24:42 <mad> and it never has to retire/writeback that intermediate place
19:24:55 <mad> once it's done the result can disappear
19:25:29 <Phantom_Hoover> right, it doesn't have to resolve all the abstractions between instructions
19:25:40 <int-e> @tell mroman the Burlesque shell is moving to http://64.137.252.151/~burlesque/burlesque.cgi ... and I may need help building the cgi (currently trying...)
19:26:01 <mad> that's the difference between "temp value" and "temp value stored in a program-accessible register"
19:26:04 <Phantom_Hoover> but i mean if you can do the load and add in one uop then why not have risc instructions for it?
19:26:27 <olsner> but then it's CISC not RISC :P
19:26:31 <mad> a risc with load-add instructions is basically a cisc :D
19:27:09 <mad> RISCs are easier to build
19:27:14 <mad> and easier to speed optimize
19:27:34 <mad> RISCs did 4-instructions per cycle way before x86
19:27:43 <Phantom_Hoover> because you don't have to bother building hardware to e.g. load operands and store them behind the scenes
19:27:58 <mad> and it's easier to do 4-instructions per cycles because you have less ops, less long latency ops
19:28:51 <mad> mostly it's easier because all your ops do at most 2 register file reads and 1 register file write and have at most 2 cycles of latency
19:29:14 <mad> so it makes the scheduling easier
19:29:35 <mad> also you don't have to cram as many operands in a single op
19:30:37 <mad> like, your load-store ops happen only in the load-store unit so it's easy to strictly-order them
19:30:40 <zzo38> My new kind of computer design has separate video instruction set, audio instruction set, and main instruction set, and have deliberately designed the video instruction set so that no instruction does both read and write (on 6502 some instructions do); other than instruction decoding there is only up to one memory operation per instruction (in some cases there is none, and it would do a dummy read instead).
19:31:11 <mad> instead of having ops that happen both in the load-store unit which has to be ordered, AND the alu part which is easy to completely reorder willy-nilly
19:32:35 <mad> in theory if you can find a way to get rid of the program-readable intermediate values in registers, you could do macro-op fusion on load+add instruction sequences and turn a RISC into a CISC
19:33:25 <zzo38> You could have some write-only registers maybe
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19:35:50 <\oren\> hmmm what if you had instructions of the form "load rA, add rB to rC" and "store rA, add rB to rC"
19:36:08 <\oren\> where rA, rB and rC are always different
19:36:11 <Phantom_Hoover> the problem is that because the result might get read the CPU has to keep it around with certain assurances, whereas if it's only visible to the one instruction then it can be treated much less carefully
19:38:41 <gamemanj> Maybe someone should just build a big memory pipeline and have a CPU which is just given flags to manipulate that pipeline.
19:40:40 <\oren\> I'm thinking about some sort of "explicit pipelining" where all instructions contain several actions which don't interfere inside
19:44:42 <int-e> @tell mroman actually building the cgi seems to have worked fine (a cabal file would help though...) but you can't currently log in; please contact me about that...
19:49:36 <\oren\> iow, instead of having "add [r1] to r3, add [r2] to r4" and having that rearranged, you would write "read [r1], ???; read [r2], add mem to r3; ???, add mem to r4"
19:51:10 <mad> \oren\ : hmmmm
19:51:52 <mad> like basically have instructions in the execution sequence, and have a separate stream that tells the logical sequence?
19:56:03 <mad> I was thinking of going the reverse way
19:56:33 <\oren\> the idea would be that each instruction would contain a set of "mini-instructions" for each part of the cpu which are done in parallel
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19:57:36 <mad> load accumulator, [rA + imm], add rb, store in rc; <special bit that indicates that a new paralellizable sequence starts here> load accumulator [rD + imm], add rE, store in rF
19:58:01 <mad> \oren\ : that's vliw no?
20:00:52 <\oren\> so in a normal architecture an instruction minght contain microcode "a,b,c,d" and the next might contain "e,f,g,h" and then "i,j,k,l" and then the cpu does "a;be;cfi;dgj;...". my idea is that the instructions might instead just be "cfi" "dgj"
20:01:34 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:01:43 <\oren\> and then the parallelizability checking is offloaded to the compiler
20:03:13 <mad> why not "aei;bfj;cgk;dhl" ?
20:05:54 <zzo38> \oren\: I also thought of to do some kind of explicit pipelining and also explicit caching and so on
20:06:30 <\oren\> mad: i'm assuming that a,e, and i are all the same sort of thing
20:06:42 <\oren\> using the same part of the processor
20:06:48 <zzo38> Do you like the 83-key Model F keyboard?
20:07:05 <mad> I think there's value in some way of specifying which instructions are serial and which ones are parallel, but I don't think there's been a really good way yet
20:09:41 <mad> best way yet is vliw but you need calculation-heavy programs and it's hard to adapt vliw programs to later generation cpus
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20:09:49 <gamemanj> Why not just build a unit which takes in the entire contents of the register file and an operation, and outputs the modified register file/
20:09:53 <mad> which is why it's used in DSPs
20:09:56 <Phantom_Hoover> if you specify too much in the instructions then it takes control from the CPU engineers
20:10:16 <mad> gamemanj : because then you need to run 32 operations in parallel?
20:10:27 <mad> which means you need 64 read ports from the register file
20:10:57 <gamemanj> Depends on your definition of what "one operation" is.
20:11:51 <Phantom_Hoover> why not just build a cpu where the only operand is RealWorld
20:12:37 <mad> gamemanj : also how do you place your data cache ?
20:13:43 <gamemanj> Well, memory accesses wouldn't be doable in operations, rather, they'd be handled in the "segment" holding those.
20:14:28 <gamemanj> Like, you write a segment which adds the current memory value to A, then adds 1 to the memory address, and if that address is at some limit, go to the next segment, else loop.
20:14:43 <gamemanj> The memory access would be at the segment boundary.
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20:21:56 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: A normal chessmatch is 1-chess. You can play with arbitrary values, though. It's up to how masochistic the players are.
20:23:19 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm still investigating what 1.5-chess and such are)
20:24:05 <gamemanj> are you talking about hyperdimensional chess or something?
20:25:18 -!- jakleen has left.
20:28:47 * gamemanj rolls about in a fluffy manner
20:29:11 <gamemanj> (If it has any meaning to you, hit yourself with a frying pan and try again.)
20:29:34 <\oren\> I actually have no idea what ꜲꜳꜴꜵꜶꜷꜸꜹꜺꜻꜼꜽ are for
20:30:13 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: ... I don't get it. Is the number how many moves you get?
20:30:31 <gamemanj> How do you analyze "winning" or "losing" until the game at least reaches a check?
20:30:52 <gamemanj> Or anyone's even lost a piece?
20:31:25 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: In n-chess, every time a piece is captured, the players initiate a game of (n-1)-chess, in which white is the attacking player and black the defending player. The winner's piece goes to the defending square, the loser's piece is captured by the winner. In the event of a draw, white is interpreted as winning (or maybe black).
20:31:42 <int-e> gamemanj: tempi, positional strength, piece coordination, gut feeling?
20:32:01 <int-e> gamemanj: I'm reading chess reviews. I have no clue what all that means :P
20:32:42 <HackEgo> 679) * Phantom_Hoover moves 0.5 Phantom_Hoover into the Atlantic, and captures fizzie's upper body with 0.5 Phantom_Hoover. <fizzie> Glurk.
20:33:07 <fizzie> We were talking about continuous chess.
20:33:27 <int-e> gamemanj: it's hard to make articulate sounds with only half a body
20:33:31 <Phantom_Hoover> and oklopol won because i let him talk me into changing the rules in his favour
20:33:42 <\oren\> hmm, I suppose you could play 2-chess if you had a month to do it
20:33:43 <int-e> also, the atlantic is involved.
20:34:21 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: please stop making up vacuous terms.
20:34:23 <\oren\> so every capture involves a game of normal chess
20:34:26 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: No, that's literally the definition
20:35:10 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: I think phantom_hoover assumed you were joking
20:35:20 <\oren\> it would take maybe a year or two to play a game of 3 chess
20:35:36 <Phantom_Hoover> no i saw him talking about it earlier and i assumed it would be buried in scrollback
20:35:57 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: It's only meant to be played by million-person superminds, humans who have interfaced with a computer, and perfect beings woven of spacetime
20:36:50 <gamemanj> Don't know, they keep getting outsmarted by a spaceship with a name that sounds like really bad software.
20:36:58 * hppavilion[1] wonders how long it is until n-chess proliferates and he hears about it somewhere else and feels smug
20:37:46 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], this is clearly the place to involve the surreals
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20:38:06 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Already done (kind of); someone on ##math invented limit ordinal chess based on n-chess
20:38:21 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Though you could play traditional omega-chess if you can win a game of n-chess without capturing
20:38:28 <gamemanj> Ok, new plan: kill everybody who knows about n-chess.
20:38:38 <gamemanj> This will prevent the demise of humanity via n-chess.
20:39:07 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Sorry, but I've upgraded humanity to 2-humanity. Every time you kill someone, you must run a simulation of the entire universe to determine success
20:39:48 <hppavilion[1]> Which raises the question of how one "wins" the universe...
20:39:52 <gamemanj> Sorry, but I upgraded plot-foiling
20:40:05 <gamemanj> You must run a simulation of plot-foiling to determine success
20:40:39 <hppavilion[1]> I upgraded upgrading. Every time you upgrade something, you must read every Yo Dawg meme on the internet.
20:40:40 <gamemanj> And since I was the one who started it in the first place, the rules hadn't applied by the time I had started - they only apply afterward,
20:41:01 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I will accept your unconditional surrender.
20:41:15 <gamemanj> you must read the oxford english dictionary out loud
20:41:49 <gamemanj> I think we annoyed the linguists
20:42:24 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: The international hub of solidity matrices | Ingredients: Hydrogen, time | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
20:43:17 <gamemanj> ...does #esoteric contain any added sugar?
20:44:35 <hppavilion[1]> One could argue that no sugar is added, because the sugar-adding process is part of the natural course of the universe
20:44:48 <gamemanj> However, does it contain gluten?
20:46:32 * hppavilion[1] hereby releases n-chess under Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International, with the addendum that he gets bragging rights every time it is mentioned
20:46:55 <gamemanj> I think it's a bit late for that
20:47:59 * gamemanj points at the massive clusters of gluten all over the surface of a random rock
20:48:09 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Well, every time it is mentioned by someone I don't know
20:52:48 <gamemanj> Are we agreed that an infinitesimal amount below 0 is below 0, but an infinitesimal chance is none at all? From that, we can then state that fractional values are measured by distance from 0 and reflect the chance the value will be flipped.
20:53:25 <gamemanj> So 1-chess has a fractional of 0, and on distance-from-0 that's 0, so there is no chance the value will be flipped.
20:53:34 <gamemanj> 1.5-chess will result in all games actually having a random value.
20:53:36 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, I think -n-chess works if we flip who plays white in subgames
20:54:16 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I don't think that fractional n-chess should rely on probabilistic computing
20:54:32 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I don't think it matters when n>0, but when n=0 it makes everything work? Maybe?
20:54:35 <gamemanj> It's just that this neatly rounds out the space of numbers.
20:55:35 <hppavilion[1]> When a piece captures another piece, the lesser-powered piece is destroyed and the greater-powered piece downgraded by the number of ranks in the lesser-powered piece
20:58:25 <mad> I wonder if you could make a version of the turing infinite tape in different board games
20:58:36 <mad> to make them turing complete
20:58:57 <mad> or some kind of expandable rubik's cube
20:59:17 <gamemanj> an infinitely wide chess board
20:59:26 <gamemanj> with an infinite number of pawns...
21:00:02 <gamemanj> with the pieces following rules that are both a TC-CA and accurate to the game rules...
21:01:09 <gamemanj> There'd have to be an order of operations of course...
21:01:32 <mad> with the right consrtuction you can make an infinite chessboard that expands infinitely rightwards and downwards into a sort of grid
21:01:51 <mad> but the left side and top side acts as a kind of border
21:02:03 <gamemanj> I'd go with top side and bottom side.
21:02:03 <zzo38> If I made up the new kind of computer, would you buy it and/or build a clone of it and/or write a program for it and/or sell it?
21:02:11 <gamemanj> Use king & queen to work out direction...
21:02:24 <mad> and then do turing complete calculation by moving a king and constantly keeping the king in check
21:02:39 <mad> forcing it on a path
21:02:50 <gamemanj> zzo38: depends what. If your computer has > 16 MiB of RAM, I might write a BytePusher emulator...
21:03:31 <gamemanj> mad: So the players would actually be precisely following Chess rules and would have no room for disambiguation.
21:03:52 <zzo38> gamemanj: I have decided it would certainly have enough address space, although I don't know how much RAM would be included by default (but you could add more)
21:04:12 <mad> like white would be 1 move from being checkmated
21:04:31 <gamemanj> mad: I know how you could get two kings to continually advance right-wards. Have two endless rows of castles, one at the top, one at the bottom.
21:04:34 <mad> and the only way for white to survive is to keep black in perpetual check
21:05:20 <gamemanj> Well, with my system, the players would swap turns going forward.
21:05:22 <mad> so if the program doesn't halt then white can force a draw
21:06:09 <mad> if the program halts then either white can win, or white always loses (depending on how the halting end of the board is constructed)
21:06:18 <Phantom_Hoover> you just construct an infinite tree such that there's an infinite branch iff some turing machine halts
21:07:06 <mad> Phantom_Hoover : hm yeah I guess there's a variety of infinite boards that are turing complete
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21:07:30 <mad> though I dunno if there's a proof for the simplest kind
21:07:49 <mad> (a board with a 1d repeating section to act as an infinite tape)
21:10:00 <mad> you'd have to construct some kind of conveyor belt
21:10:19 <mad> and a wire crossing
21:10:25 <mad> and a memory cell
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21:32:11 <notzerk> If you have Discord and want to join a fun server. L3L Chat's https://discord.gg/0um0KUI34PBX846G
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21:37:58 <myname> sone chat nonsens for these letsplay twitch hipsters
21:38:26 <myname> as far as i u derstand its like a less horrible teamspeak
21:39:13 <\oren\> no idea what teamspeak is either. is it like AOL
21:39:25 <\oren\> I had AIM once upon a time
21:40:13 <fizzie> Is it like that... wait, what's it called.
21:40:30 <myname> imagine you take irc, remove some comfortable features to actually chat, add some uncomfortable features to voicechat
21:40:57 <fizzie> As popularized by that song.
21:41:31 <\oren\> vi sitter har i venten och spelar lite DOTA vi springer
21:41:40 <fizzie> Yeah, I think that's a reference to Ventrilo?
21:41:49 <\oren\> de monstandet vi sleepar
21:42:42 <fizzie> Or was that a different song? Am I mising things up?
21:42:48 <\oren\> https://youtu.be/0OzWIFX8M-Y
21:43:02 <fizzie> Yeah -- same guy, different song.
21:43:27 <\oren\> I didn't remeber the lyrics very accurately
21:43:47 <fizzie> Also! There's Mumble, I've heard of that.
21:49:50 <\oren\> https://youtu.be/y6120QOlsfU
21:51:00 <int-e> must be a very loud mumble
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21:59:33 <fizzie> Hey, isn't that Helsingin tuomiokirkko?
22:01:41 <fizzie> But that makes no sense, then it's immediately Huvilakuja right there in the next scene.
22:01:49 <fizzie> Those aren't next to each other at all.
22:01:58 <fizzie> I guess they could've ran all the way there in the meanwhile.
22:02:50 <zzo38> gamemanj: What programming language would you use for writing it, would it be written in Forth, in C, in BASIC, or in assembly language? (I would suspect it may be too slow if you don't write at least part of it in assembly language, and assembly language is likely required if you need custom display programs.)
22:03:43 <gamemanj> zzo38: I've lost track of the conversation.
22:04:11 <zzo38> You said if my computer has > 16 MiB of RAM then you might write the BytePusher emulator
22:04:45 <gamemanj> Theoretically. And that's assuming it had suitable display hardware.
22:04:48 <zzo38> (Also I don't know the details yet of screen resolutions higher than 320x240, so that might also affect it)
22:05:40 <gamemanj> And it's also assuming I actually even bother. And there's also the fact this is all hypothetical anyway.
22:05:58 <zzo38> Yes, for now it is hypothetical and the plans can be changed anyways.
22:06:25 <gamemanj> BTW, zzo38 - are there any Brainfuck programs that you would particularly like to see on BytePusher?
22:06:48 <zzo38> Possibly the one that they take over the world?
22:06:58 <gamemanj> Oh, perfect! I already had that one compiled!
22:07:37 <gamemanj> Well, I say "compiled". It's actually still interpreted, but the code has to be strapped to the binary.
22:08:00 <gamemanj> Let me check current running program...
22:08:10 <gamemanj> "Finally Taking Over The World".
22:09:02 <gamemanj> Now, I can't really strap a licence blob to a BytePusher executable without some work, so it's probably-not-entirely complying with the GPL licence.
22:09:53 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
22:10:27 <zzo38> You could just add the data to the end unused; that isn't really quite it but it is idea. Another way would be to add a screen with license information, and then it switches out of that screen once any key is pushed, and start the rest of the program.
22:10:53 <gamemanj> Yes, but I'm kind of in the middle of something else ^.^;
22:11:39 <gamemanj> Also, does that mean I have to now give you the entirety of the source code to the BytePusher Brainfuck interpreter? And does that include the compiler...
22:12:05 <gamemanj> I'd be fine with it in theory, but this is distractions upon distractions
22:12:20 <zzo38> I think it does not include the compiler as far as I know, but maybe it does for the interpreter I don't know.
22:12:38 <gamemanj> Yeah, but the compiler's entirely custom
22:13:16 -!- jaboja has joined.
22:15:31 <fizzie> Come on, Wikipedia. You've got the "List of lists of lists", but you *don't* have the "List of music videos shot in Finland".
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22:29:37 <hppavilion[1]> Every player only makes one move in the entire game
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22:57:57 <zzo38> I don't know what my new kind of computer design would be called (even codename are not provided at this time).
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23:01:53 <mad> it's kindof both retro and modern at the same time
23:02:24 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
23:04:00 <zzo38> Although the graphics capabilities are different than BytePusher. Two kinds of formats could be supported for all-points-addressable playfield graphics, which are 4-plane PseudoColor XY format and 15-plane TrueColor Z format. You could also use bobs, which use something like "Chunky-Extra-HalfBrite" format. (But you could also do tiles and sprites, and can even change it per scanline.)
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23:15:01 <zzo38> mad: Yes that is part of what the point of it is though
23:15:54 * oerjan surprised a badger today
23:16:39 <oerjan> it suddenly leapt out near some garbage bins.
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23:18:43 <zzo38> I would probably not make the blitter more complicated than I have already written, although an over-complicated (and very slow) blitter could be made by adding muxcomp into the blitter, as well as configurable data sizes, line mode (like Amiga has), and an outer loop as well as the inner loop; with this over-complicated variant it would probably do anything you need the blitter to do. Of course I won't do it like this though; it would probably be
23:23:14 <hppavilion[1]> How much must Draughts be improved before it just becomes chess with a different set of armies?
23:23:39 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I don't know, but you can try.
23:41:47 <oerjan> tomorrow's evening forecast looks wet.
23:41:53 <lambdabot> ENVA 212220Z 11008KT CAVOK 13/03 Q1006 RMK WIND 670FT 17015KT
23:43:27 <HackEgo> Profit \ 1W \ Instant \ Creatures you control get +1/+1 until end of turn. \ Fuse (You may cast one or both halves of this card from your hand.) \ [This is half of the split card Profit // Loss.] \ DGM-U
23:43:27 <HackEgo> bfjoust//bfjoust is a spamming tool for #esoteric.
23:47:03 <oerjan> !zjoust spam >>>>>>>>>([-]>)*-1
23:47:04 <zemhill_> oerjan.spam: points -13.81, score 10.75, rank 47/47
23:47:46 <zemhill_> oerjan: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
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23:48:51 <oerjan> gamemanj: a programming game and bf derivative
23:49:34 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:50:34 <oerjan> !zjoust spam >>>>>>>>>([-][-]>)*-1
23:50:35 <zemhill_> oerjan.spam: points -16.62, score 9.35, rank 47/47 (--)
23:51:04 * oerjan never was much of a jouster.
23:51:06 <zemhill_> gamemanj.troddler: points -25.64, score 5.76, rank 47/47
23:51:56 <oerjan> gamemanj: that one won't manage to clear a flag for 2 rounds
23:52:43 <gamemanj> !zjoust troddler >>>>>>>>>>[-]+[>[-]+]
23:52:45 <zemhill_> gamemanj.troddler: points -17.93, score 8.91, rank 47/47 (--)
23:53:16 <oerjan> anyway, the current hill is ridiculously hard to beat.
23:54:14 <zzo38> A variant of "fuse" is "fuseback" that is not official but someone suggested it and I have made up the more precise rules for it and a few cards using it. Fuseback means you can cast both halves of the card from your graveyard (you can't cast only one half from your graveyard, nor both halves from your hand), in which case it is exiled when it resolves.
23:54:27 <gamemanj> !zjoust troddler >>(+)*128>>>>>>[-]+[>[-]+]
23:54:28 <zemhill_> gamemanj.troddler: points -20.76, score 7.62, rank 47/47 (--)
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23:54:57 <gamemanj> !zjoust troddler >>->>>>>>[-]+[>[-]+]
23:54:58 <zemhill_> gamemanj.troddler: points -17.05, score 9.15, rank 47/47 (--)
23:55:21 <gamemanj> !zjoust troddler >>->>->>->>[-]+[>[-]+]
23:55:22 <zemhill_> gamemanj.troddler: points -17.76, score 8.84, rank 47/47 (--)
23:57:18 <gamemanj> !zjoust troddler >>->>>>>>[-]+[->[-<+]<[>>[-]]+]
23:57:20 <zemhill_> gamemanj.troddler: points -32.62, score 2.55, rank 47/47 (--)
23:57:35 <gamemanj> TBH I lost track of what my code was doing aroubd about the end part
23:57:59 <zzo38> Light Side {W} Instant ;; Target white creature gets +0/+1 until end of turn. ;; Target player gains 1 life. /// Dark Side {B} Instant ;; Target black creature gets +1/+0 until end of turn. ;; Target player loses 1 life. /// Fuseback
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23:59:47 <oerjan> gamemanj: btw the wiki has a lot of strategy discussion.
00:00:33 * oerjan doesn't know a quarter of it.
00:01:03 <zemhill_> gamemanj.madness: points -27.76, score 2.83, rank 47/47
00:01:13 <zemhill_> gamemanj.madness: points -27.81, score 2.83, rank 47/47 (--)
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00:01:59 <zemhill_> gamemanj.madness: points -43.69, score 0.42, rank 47/47 (--)
00:02:14 <zemhill_> gamemanj.madness: points -43.69, score 0.42, rank 47/47 (--)
00:02:24 <zemhill_> gamemanj.madness: points -44.19, score 0.48, rank 47/47 (--)
00:02:38 <gamemanj> it seems I am attempting to get the lowest amount of points possible by accident
00:02:54 <oerjan> gamemanj: that basically only goes one cell forward ever, i think
00:03:12 <zemhill_> gamemanj.madness: points -43.62, score 0.66, rank 47/47 (--)
00:03:20 <zemhill_> gamemanj.madness: points -44.02, score 0.37, rank 47/47 (--)
00:03:23 <zemhill_> oerjan.suicide: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
00:03:32 <oerjan> gamemanj: that's the absolute minimum
00:03:42 <zemhill_> gamemanj.madness: points -34.88, score 2.62, rank 47/47
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00:04:01 <oerjan> you are, admittedly, close in some of those.
00:04:05 <gamemanj> !zjoust madness [[->+<][-<+>]]
00:04:05 <zemhill_> gamemanj.madness: points -33.45, score 2.94, rank 47/47 (--)
00:08:52 <zemhill_> gamemanj.madness: points -19.64, score 8.24, rank 47/47 (--)
00:09:20 <gamemanj> !zjoust madness >>>>+<<<<(-)*128+[.-+]
00:09:21 <zemhill_> gamemanj.madness: points -23.52, score 5.76, rank 47/47 (--)
00:09:30 <gamemanj> !zjoust madness >>>>++<<<<(-)*128+[.-+]
00:09:31 <zemhill_> gamemanj.madness: points -22.60, score 6.11, rank 47/47 (--)
00:09:40 <gamemanj> !zjoust madness >>>>(+)*8<<<<(-)*128+[.-+]
00:09:41 <zemhill_> gamemanj.madness: points -21.14, score 6.60, rank 47/47 (--)
00:09:50 <gamemanj> !zjoust madness >>>>(+)*8<+<+<+<(-)*128+[.-+]
00:09:51 <zemhill_> gamemanj.madness: points -22.12, score 6.45, rank 47/47 (--)
00:10:01 <gamemanj> !zjoust madness >(+)*8<(-)*128+[.-+]
00:10:02 <zemhill_> gamemanj.madness: points -20.24, score 7.09, rank 47/47 (--)
00:12:08 <gamemanj> !zjoust madness >>>>+<<<<[[+][-]]
00:12:09 <zemhill_> gamemanj.madness: points -25.19, score 3.16, rank 47/47 (--)
00:14:44 <hppavilion[1]> Someone come up with a practical reason to summon Gortak, the World-Eater in a chess game.
00:15:00 <hppavilion[1]> (see <http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=4024>)
00:15:14 <gamemanj> Maybe the world looked like a tasty snack?
00:17:18 <gamemanj> Answer: If I'm losing at chess, then I'd summon Gortak as a scorched earth policy.
00:17:43 <gamemanj> Doesn't mean I can't be checkmated.
00:18:28 <zzo38> I think that summoning Gortak or whatever else you want to summon would be a valid move in a game of chess (unless you make the variant).
00:18:57 <b_jonas> ``` grep -i siona wisdom/*
00:19:05 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ wisdom/cat introduction:cat introduction is the process of piping one or more extra `cat` commands into your pipeline; occasionally this is even actually useful. \ wisdom/nvd:nvd is what Taneb calls himself when he wants to feel pr
00:19:19 <b_jonas> ``` grep --quiet -i siona wisdom/*
00:19:25 <b_jonas> ``` grep --silent -i siona wisdom/*
00:19:41 <b_jonas> ``` grep --no-messages -i siona wisdom/*
00:19:43 <HackEgo> wisdom/cat introduction:cat introduction is the process of piping one or more extra `cat` commands into your pipeline; occasionally this is even actually useful. \ wisdom/nvd:nvd is what Taneb calls himself when he wants to feel professional. \ Binary file wisdom/reflection matches
00:19:53 <b_jonas> ``` grep --no-messages -il siona wisdom/*
00:19:55 <HackEgo> wisdom/cat introduction \ wisdom/nvd \ wisdom/reflection
00:21:25 <gamemanj> I'm pretty sure someone, somewhere, could construct a case where the king is in check, ironically being prevented from leaving by one of the queens, so Gortak is summoned and the king makes a move.
00:21:37 <gamemanj> ...unless Gortak's summoning counts as a turn.
00:22:09 <gamemanj> In which case, all Gortak is good for is removing 3 queens from the board.
00:26:12 <zzo38> Yes adding extra cat command can be used to force the program to treat it as a pipe instead of a terminal or file, if it cares.
00:27:22 <zzo38> gamemanj: It help if you are in check from queens I suppose
00:27:38 <gamemanj> zzo38: Nope, they have to be queens you control
00:28:10 <zzo38> O, then it might help to prevent blocking your own king, but it won't help if you are in check (unless it is a variant that includes Chinese cannons perhaps)
00:28:50 <zzo38> Or to prevent opponent being stalemated
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00:29:53 <gamemanj> yes, but unfortunately if you summon Gortak nobody can ever win at chess ever again.
00:30:20 <gamemanj> Well, to be specific "if Gortak enters game".
00:30:22 -!- Frooxius has joined.
00:30:31 <gamemanj> So if Gortak is summoned but doesn't show up, you're OK.
00:31:05 <oerjan> maybe he's already full from eating exo-jupiters.
00:31:14 <zzo38> O, so you just have to block off the cell where they would be entered into, maybe (assuming it is a legal move still in such case)
00:31:52 <gamemanj> You just know someone's going to summon Gortak now and stop us from ever winning chess...
00:32:13 <oerjan> i have a hunch there are other side effects hth
00:32:14 <zzo38> Assuming it is a legal move, which it is not.
00:32:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: Hziulquoigmnzhah of Cykranosh, the dread spanw of Cxaxukluth from http://smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=4072 has a more funny name than Gortak the Destroyer
00:32:53 <zzo38> O, OK, but is that even relevant?
00:33:05 <zzo38> That's what I thought.
00:33:57 <b_jonas> nor is Siona Patricia pa-Lehyll pa-Drusia Ishgur-Sal, Lady of Tyren, sometime general in His Majesty's army, dame of the Empire, and senator of Tuqnil relevant.
00:37:48 <HackEgo> pectcoin antiacoin silacoin aveacoin syndejcoin discoin rumcoin barbazicoin ettecoin scabcogscoin highted!coin infedwriumcoin ted!coin fcoin constitycoin egexcoin recusskateflipedarezcoin sbacoin chargacoin twostepcoin
00:38:12 * oerjan isn't sure whether that reboot helped or not.
00:38:25 <b_jonas> is Gortok the Infernal Spawn of Infernal Spawn of Evil
00:38:44 <HackEgo> eut mirr ilit elean lil mores beaugh hoxyd prepulch diable stelle cipera hungerresuifh corship assan deb rerg kyt ston exeraphild bomier pelle poorto yoacht citurn
00:39:15 <oerjan> maybe it's not timing out quite as much.
00:48:05 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/coins
00:49:44 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i think the expensive part is in words
00:50:49 <fizzie> ted!coins have something to do with TED talks.
00:54:14 <hppavilion[1]> Bishop, Archbishop, Cardinal, Pope, Priest, Deacon, Altar Boy, and anything else
00:56:43 <zzo38> Yes if you want to make up the Catholic version
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00:59:40 <fizzie> Jan 1 06:26:04 kernel: Out of Memory: Kill process 7145 (debootstrap) score 71 and children.
00:59:43 <fizzie> Jan 1 06:26:04 kernel: Out of memory: Killed process 14690 (ar).
00:59:48 <fizzie> That wasn't very conductive to the installation.
01:00:17 <zzo38> What are you trying to install and how much RAM is in your computer?
01:00:39 <fizzie> Debian etch/sparc, 32 megabytes of RAM, ~500 MB of swap.
01:01:09 <gamemanj> poor process... poor poor process...
01:01:10 <fizzie> About all of that swap is free, but I guess it wasn't good enough.
01:03:15 <fizzie> Oh well. I don't have any pressing reason why I need to install anything on it, I just thought it might be helpful if someone wants to take that box, so they can possibly fiddle around without having to set up the netboot environment.
01:04:28 <zzo38> But what are you trying to install?
01:05:50 <int-e> "Debian etch/sparc"
01:06:09 <fizzie> Right. I'm trying to install Debian.
01:06:23 <fizzie> (Version etch, because it's the latest one with sparc32 support.)
01:08:01 <zzo38> Is there anything else that you could install that has sparc32 support?
01:08:21 <fizzie> OpenBSD would probably be fine, that's what I used to run.
01:08:39 <zzo38> You could try that maybe
01:09:28 <fizzie> I could. It's just more complicated to boot from the network for installation than Debian. (In particular, it needs a NFS server to mount the installer root filesystem from. Debian can use an initrd. Which is probably one of the reasons it runs out of memory, to be fair.)
01:09:43 <fizzie> Maybe I'll try it tomorrow.
01:14:41 <zzo38> Should the blitter in my computer design to include a stop condition as well as the copy condition (it might be helpful with C programming)?
01:19:02 <zzo38> (For example to implement such things as strcpy)
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01:21:43 <gamemanj> more flexibility is good, but:
01:21:59 <gamemanj> If the blitter is parallel, people may want to reserve the blitter for their application
01:22:11 <gamemanj> so using it for a mere strcpy seems wasteful
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01:22:53 <gamemanj> the application knows what it wants :)
01:23:22 <gamemanj> (just a note if you write a standard library for this. I haven't actually seen any documentation on your architecture, BTW)
01:23:25 <zzo38> It is not parallel; it takes up CPU cycles but would be faster than executing a loop. (Also it is much simpler than the Amiga blitter)
01:24:13 <zzo38> gamemanj: The document so far is http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/new.computer
01:24:24 <zzo38> (It is hardly complete, just some ideas for now)
01:25:08 <zzo38> That is what you can use for external read/write media. (For external read-only media you can use a CD or DVD.)
01:26:18 <gamemanj> ...is "low voltage == red" "high voltage == green" "phase == blue" a real standard???
01:27:38 <gamemanj> Palette has 16 entries, but "RGB" suggests 8. Perhaps you mean IRGB?
01:27:39 <zzo38> Not as far as I know, I just needed some way to do voltage/phase.
01:28:19 <gamemanj> ...so basically using the VPP mode involves knowing details about your video standard.
01:28:25 <zzo38> gamemanj: Each palette entry is a 24-bit RGB (8-bits per channel).
01:29:04 <zzo38> gamemanj: Yes, that is what VPP mode involves. (Also VPP mode only applies to analog output, and is not used for digital.)
01:30:18 <zzo38> Yes I know, it would be relative to colour burst probably.
01:31:06 <zzo38> (Also only half of the phases need to be implemented, because the other half can be implemented by switching the low-voltage with high-voltage.)
01:31:17 -!- oerjan has set topic: The international hub of solidity matrices | Ingredients: Hydrogen, time, stevia | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
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01:32:30 <oerjan> gamemanj: i hope that answers your question
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01:33:05 <menwithHill> Do any of the star programming languages today incorporate the Propagators paradigm?
01:33:23 <zzo38> menwithHill: What does that mean though?
01:35:30 <menwithHill> like OOP, and FP, the paradigm of Propagators was proposed a few years back . . . wondering if Haskell, Scala, Py, JS, et al, incorporate it in any measure . . . :P
01:35:54 <oerjan> . o O ( actually, there should be ~ 25% helium )
01:35:56 <zzo38> I wouldn't know if I do not know how it works.
01:36:17 <zzo38> I do know Haskell and JavaScript programming but without know what "Propagators" is, does not help much.
01:36:38 <shachaf> menwithHill: Radul's thing?
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01:37:59 <oerjan> or maybe not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang_nucleosynthesis
01:38:19 <gamemanj> menwithHill: perhaps describing the paradigm will help?
01:38:54 -!- jaboja has joined.
01:39:07 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you support Compact Flash-Recordable?
01:39:34 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know.
01:42:41 <HackEgo> pbflist 275: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas
01:44:30 <shachaf> Though I don't think I get this one.
01:47:15 <zzo38> gamemanj: Did you read all of this document?
01:47:20 * oerjan learns that the amount of deuterium in the universe is considered evidence of dark matter
01:47:54 <gamemanj> zzo38: If you mean your computer document - not every last detail, and to be entirely honest I have no idea why you have so many processors.
01:48:45 <zzo38> gamemanj: I thought it explain why?
01:49:11 <zzo38> It is so that you can have separate programming for video/audio than the main programming.
01:50:22 <zzo38> There is an example of the video programming near the end.
01:51:45 <gamemanj> Nice anti-"programs depending on implementation of BIOS" feature
01:52:06 <shachaf> oerjan: did you read the pdf yet hth
01:56:02 <xkapastel> propagators were alexey radul's phd thesis
01:56:05 <xkapastel> http://web.mit.edu/~axch/www/art.pdf
01:56:20 <shachaf> But menwithHill doesn't know about Radul.
01:56:33 <xkapastel> so know menwithHill knows about radul
01:56:33 <shachaf> So maybe it's a different propagator.
01:57:05 <xkapastel> anyway tbh they aren't that interesting since radul didn't successfully create a PL based on them, just an awkward scheme implementation that exposes it guts
01:57:30 <xkapastel> most of the benefit that propagators would have were left to "future work" in his thesis and the technical report
01:57:41 <zzo38> xkapastel: I will look
01:57:49 <xkapastel> i.e. integrating various "propagation" based paradigms like constraint solving, FRP, logic programming etc
01:57:58 <shachaf> menwithHill: edwardk was doing some things in https://github.com/ekmett/propagators a while ago
01:58:41 <xkapastel> interaction nets seem like a better implementation of the idea of multi-directional computation, as they're a lot more abstract than radul's scheme based stuff
01:59:19 <xkapastel> menwithHill: https://www-lipn.univ-paris13.fr/~mazza/papers/Thesis.pdf for interaction nets
01:59:35 <xkapastel> don't be scared of the math,just read the first few sections for an introduction
02:01:22 <menwithHill> is something else being used, say in Haskell, that covers propagators features?
02:02:06 <xkapastel> the idea behind propagators was to unify various propgation based paradigms like constraint solving and functional reactive programming
02:02:12 <xkapastel> those various paradigms are implemented in haskell, yes
02:02:33 <xkapastel> functional reactive programming in particular was originally developed in haskell
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02:02:48 <xkapastel> and constraint solving is an important part of type inference, so haskellers are very familiar with it
02:04:12 <xkapastel> you're not going to find something else that's like, all of those things in one like alexey wanted, because that's a very hard problem
02:04:59 <menwithHill> didn't Sussman do something with propagators?
02:05:22 <xkapastel> they teamed up on the technical report which i linked to
02:07:32 <shachaf> Does the bishop have to tour both white and black squares?
02:10:02 <shachaf> But then I looked it up and I saw people talking about 32-tours of the bishop.
02:10:06 <shachaf> So then I thought it wasn't.
02:10:28 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Oh, that's pretty stupid because of unfunniness
02:12:19 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: Apparently the 32-square variants (at least sometimes) add a "cannot pass over a square already visited" rule to make it at least more interesting, if still not funny.
02:20:50 <shachaf> zzo38: Have you played Gess?
02:22:33 <zzo38> shachaf: No, but I have read the rules
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05:45:00 <shachaf> @tell ais523 http://baesystemsai.blogspot.com/2016/04/two-bytes-to-951m.html suggests that 90 programs can be very valuable.
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06:27:07 <zzo38> Maybe the 640x480 mode is reduced to approx. 17 frames per second, and the 800x600 mode is removed.
06:30:56 <zzo38> (Or might be included but with the frame rate reduced even more)
06:31:37 <shachaf> Did you know the Symbolics 3600, from the 1980s, had a 1280x1024 color display?
06:32:47 <quintopia> okay, i lolled the new pbf. thx gaiz
06:32:59 <zzo38> Actually I think 640x480 could be faster than 17 frames per second, because the number 17 would assume that vblank has the same number of scanlines and it might not have to be (only the number of clock cycles should probably be at least as much)
06:33:36 <zzo38> shachaf: No, but now I do. What frame rate and how many colours could it display (and in what class)?
06:34:47 <shachaf> zzo38: I'm not sure, but it had an 8MHz CPU and 2.3MB RAM.
06:34:52 <zzo38> (By the class I mean the X visual classes, such as TrueColor, PseudoColor, DirectColor, etc)
06:40:18 <zzo38> X visual classes of course have nothing like Extra-HalfBrite or Hold-and-Modify.
06:42:42 <zzo38> It doesn't matter; did it use one of those visual classes though, and was it XY format or Z format?
06:43:44 <zzo38> Do you know who does know this information (and also the frame rate)?
06:43:56 <zzo38> I will see if Wikipedia mentions, I suppose
06:44:37 <shachaf> Today you can get a computer with more than twice as much RAM for less than half that price.
06:44:57 <shachaf> zzo38: Maybe you can find out from http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/symbolics/3600technicalSummary_Feb83.pdf
06:46:19 <shachaf> The interactive display was 1150x900.
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07:09:33 <zzo38> I could not find the information in there, but I could find details about the programming system, which supports macros, unbounded arrays, coroutines, exceptions, functions that return multiple values, optional parameters, keyword parameters, namespaces, and a "Flavor System" which is a kind of object-oriented system and the dependencies are not constrained to be hierarchical.
07:11:15 <coppro> shachaf: do you have a moment?
07:12:01 <coppro> I'm trying to sort out some monad transformer stuff and need a good rubber duck. I just need you to pretend to read what I'm writing, because if my rubber duck is knowledgeable I find that helps more
07:12:23 <shachaf> monad transformers moproblems
07:12:31 <coppro> I'm trying to work with an operational (custom) monad that also has state and I need to figure out which one goes on top of which.
07:12:52 <coppro> I want the interpreter for the custom monad to be able to control the state; roll it back, etc.
07:14:36 <coppro> so if I put the state as the outer monad... given a starting state, it produces a list of instructions which will produce a final state
07:15:15 <coppro> but then the interpreter is not aware of or able to affect the state in any way... so I think it has to go on the inside?
07:15:53 <coppro> unless the interpreter knows that (a,s) is the state type
07:16:15 <coppro> but if the interpreter is on the inside, then the interpreter can't exit the state environment
07:17:35 <coppro> in particular, I want the interpreter to be able to change the state type
07:18:26 <coppro> to do that it needs to be able to execute the state, change type, and resume execution
07:19:10 <coppro> but that's a property of the interpreter itself, not the actual computation
07:19:13 <shachaf> It's not the same monad at that point. Maybe you want indexed monads?
07:19:34 <shachaf> Can you come up with a simpler monad than Operational f to use to think about this?
07:21:12 <coppro> I know it's not the same monad
07:22:15 <coppro> maybe I do need indexed monads
07:29:09 <coppro> or maybe I should just stop using StateT
07:31:24 <zzo38> It says the monochrome 1150x900 display is 60 frames per second, as well as 16-bit stereo 50 KHz audio.
07:33:55 <pikhq> That's pretty low quality audio.
07:34:26 <pikhq> A higher sample rate is pretty important.
07:34:40 <pikhq> For some reason I read that as 5.
07:35:09 <pikhq> Plenty fine, then. Slightly weird (due to not being 48 kHz), but definitely not low quality.
07:35:43 <pikhq> Oh, for some reason I missed that context.
07:35:46 <shachaf> Everything was slightly weird back then.
07:35:52 <pikhq> I thought it was a thing that zzo38 was designing or something.
07:36:00 <pikhq> For the time period that's quite respectable.
07:36:15 <shachaf> Well, the computer cost $110,000.
07:36:34 <pikhq> Right. Given that it damned well better have good specs. :)
07:36:49 <zzo38> Now I found also about colours, it says it supports both 8-bit PseudoColor and 24-bit TrueColor modes, and both XY and Z formats.
07:38:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47057&oldid=44604 * 76.21.76.254 * (-21)
07:48:53 <\oren\> omg I have to fire the engines for six hours
07:49:29 <zzo38> Clearly my own design is much more limited: 4-plane PseudoColor XYPixmap, and 15-plane TrueColor ZPixmap.
07:56:06 <shachaf> zzo38: Maybe you should make your design more like the Symbolics 3600.
07:57:42 <zzo38> I don't intend to be as complicated as that
07:58:02 <shachaf> Well, maybe your computer should use a Mill CPU.
07:59:08 <zzo38> No I think I would probably do my own patent-free design
08:18:11 <\oren\> ok, that's one half hour
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09:19:26 <hppavilion[1]> Wow, it was an art in and of itself that scholars had to know
09:38:32 <myname> the good go or the google go?
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10:01:32 <hppavilion[1]> https://youtu.be/abv4Fz7oNr0 forces me to beg the question of what the 3.5th digit of pi is
10:04:01 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I expect my answer by morning. Goodnight.
10:04:29 <shachaf> please don't beg the question
10:04:38 <shachaf> and why do you ping me about these things
10:05:59 <myname> obviosly it is (1+5)/2 = 3
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10:51:20 <FreeFull> That's easy, write Pi in base 5
11:01:06 <FreeFull> It'd be something like 3.0104011014021110
11:01:22 <FreeFull> Actually, I'm probably doing this wrong
11:01:40 <FreeFull> Yeah, definitely doing it wrong
11:04:39 <int-e> FreeFull: that can work... you have a mixed base representation that alternates between bases 2 and 5
11:05:16 <FreeFull> int-e: Yeah, but it wouldn't make sense to talk about half-digits with that representation
11:05:50 <int-e> but it could easily be *more* wrong :P
11:06:53 <FreeFull> What you really want is to start with a base that is a square number
11:06:56 <FreeFull> Then you can talk about half-digits
11:07:19 <FreeFull> Then the half-digits would be in base 4
11:07:52 <int-e> if you glance at them in a mirror, 2 and 5 become hard to tell apart :P
11:10:07 <int-e> Unicode has so many silly things... but no 7 segment digits... I'm disappointed.
11:11:01 <FreeFull> We could look at base sqrt(10)
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11:12:14 <int-e> Non-integer bases are icky...
11:12:39 <int-e> you could alternate between 3 and 4 to keep digit values as close to powers of 10 as possible.
11:13:42 <int-e> Wikipedia is so useful. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculator_spelling
11:17:56 <FreeFull> Then you can just write 10.0000000000000
11:20:04 <lifthrasiir> FreeFull: now define the canonical representation
11:20:50 <FreeFull> As far as non-integer bases go, how about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio_base
11:21:04 <lifthrasiir> phi-base has a well-defined canonicalization scheme
11:21:11 <lifthrasiir> not sure if it is possible for general non-integral bases
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12:52:49 <int-e> Urgh, Microsoft still messes up email... no references, no in-reply-to headers. SIGH.
13:00:09 <int-e> Hmm, no, I'm blaming the wrong people.
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14:53:14 <gamemanj> ...so I found out zzo38's computer draft specification contains mentions of the occult, and "sprites" (given the aforementioned OCCULT, probably not the computer kind)!
14:53:31 <gamemanj> ...where can I get one of these computers?
14:54:56 <gamemanj> ("bit6 (OCCULT) - Hide sprite if playfield pixel is non-background" - presumably "pixel" is an alias of "pixie", and it's referring to hiding the sprites from the pixies... but why?)
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16:43:21 <b_jonas> coppro: “if my rubber duck is knowledgeable I find that helps more” => ah thanks, exactly. that's an excuse I use for having so many animal toys, because they're knowledgable in different areas
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17:19:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47058&oldid=47045 * Bakman329 * (+15) /* L */
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18:03:28 <\oren\> whoever thought ion engines were a good idea!
18:04:26 <\oren\> i should have put six engines on this damn thing
18:06:25 <fizzie> \oren\: I think that was Tsiolkovsky and Goddard, or something like that.
18:06:36 <zzo38> gamemanj: If you read the rest of the document you would find that is not the case. (Although yes the word is similar, maybe by coincidence)
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18:35:53 <zzo38> Occult means "to cover or hide from view", and this is what it means here.
18:40:04 <zzo38> Also, you can't get one of these computers yet.
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19:20:20 <gamemanj> Well, occultists aren't always fans of the public eye...
19:21:22 <zzo38> You can't get one of these computers in private yet either.
19:23:37 <gamemanj> hmm, "Never (not very useful)" is actually wrong - it's quite useful indeed for an optimized boolean flag toggle & branch..
19:23:57 <gamemanj> use a XOR to swap between always & never, then perform the jump
19:25:03 <zzo38> OK, so there is a use; I didn't know that.
19:30:26 <gamemanj> Jump-to-register... if memory space is 16-bit, jump-to-register could select the target register as the "high" byte and the "other" register as the "low" byte?
19:31:38 <gamemanj> I'm wondering if CMC is useful... I guess if you have two blocks of code with different conditional settings and you want to run both, a CMC would help, but why write the code that way?
19:32:39 <zzo38> But the jump is to the address of the operand, and the registers do not have an address. So, I do not know what it would do, but once the circuit is designed then we can see what it would do.
19:33:45 <gamemanj> Well, no need to design an actual electronic circuit - in my experience, Logisim's good for playing around with logic design, but ofc it's graphical. On the one hand the graphics make it easier to keep track, on the other you have to route about the lines.
19:34:40 <zzo38> The point of CMC is mainly to be used conditionally (so you do not need both SEC and CLC instructions), although there may be unconditional uses as well.
19:36:10 <gamemanj> You've described quite a bit of the CPU now I look at it, but where you have "two bits of", you should have a bitfield "ccaaoooo" and designate which side is MSB (consistency with general numeric systems and hex/etc. says MSB first), but you should probably fill in the other instructions and list flag effects.
19:36:48 <zzo38> Yes; I haven't quite designed that part yet (but should). The other instructions and flag effects are same as 6502.
19:39:42 <gamemanj> Well, you've "designed" the bitfield already more or less, you just haven't made it very explicit.
19:40:13 <gamemanj> Also, "same as 6502" is great if you know the 6502, but not so good if you don't ^.^;
19:40:46 <zzo38> Of course proper documentation would make all of these things explicit.
19:41:24 <zzo38> (I also haven't written the assignment of the numbers to each instruction; this too probably would need the circuit to be designed (not necessarily built though).)
19:43:50 <gamemanj> Ok, so LDA's probably a 2-cycle (read opcode / copy value) instruction on the register-to-register case...
19:51:41 <gamemanj> Would that act like zeropage, or?
19:52:20 <zzo38> No, it would overwrite the immediate
19:52:36 <zzo38> (Like it would do on VAX, I think; but I don't really know much about VAX)
19:53:38 <gamemanj> Does this apply to all instructions that store into the addressed value?
19:53:48 <zzo38> (Note that on an actual 6502, STA to an immediate does nothing.)
19:55:39 <zzo38> gamemanj: Yes, although there are only two such instructions in the video processor, STA and STB.
19:56:05 <gamemanj> Two makes it easy - prefix them with something like 111*.
19:56:31 <zzo38> Yes, that is what I thought of too.
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19:59:08 <gamemanj> Always Execute / Immediate / JMP.
19:59:40 <zzo38> Yes, I did also think of that.
19:59:54 <gamemanj> Good to see you thought it through.
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20:03:17 <b_jonas> 0x00 being nop is handy, although 6502 and mmix takes a different route, making an all-zero instruction a trap so that an accidental jump through a stray pointer would likely be discovered quickly instead of just noping for a while
20:04:38 <b_jonas> and I think 6502 has separate register-to-register transfer instructions
20:06:45 <zzo38> Yes, 6502 does have separate register-to-register instructions, such as TAX TAY TXA TYA TSX TXS
20:22:51 <b_jonas> Does “thrull” as in the name of the M:tG creature type etimologically come from “thrall”?
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20:29:02 <gamemanj> zzo38: I've worked out some timings and opcode IDs.
20:31:34 <gamemanj> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21184720/zzo38-op.txt
20:56:32 <\oren\> b_jonas: . o O (thrull -> thrust bearing hull?)
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20:58:23 <\oren\> b_jonas: I remember reading of a 6502 variant where all undefined instructions were BRK, and people wrote code at the BRK handler to create custom instructions
21:02:10 <gamemanj> "custom instructions"... which were presumably really slow?
21:02:42 <gamemanj> Still, must've improved code density greatly.
21:04:04 <\oren\> maybe it's more like a function call?
21:04:33 <gamemanj> Well, yes, but you still have to disambiguate between the different custom instructions
21:04:35 <\oren\> a 6502 function call takes 3 bytes of code, this would take only one.
21:05:33 <gamemanj> So you'd either need 0x200 bytes for a vector table or something (1/128th of memory is a LOT, believe it or not)... or you'd need quite a few branches (potentially slow)
21:06:33 <\oren\> yeah i'm not entirely sure what they did
21:06:52 <gamemanj> maybe they just had one "custom instruction" for something they used a lot?
21:08:06 <gamemanj> Or maybe there were only 16 or so custom instructions, so they could afford a vector table.
21:09:09 <\oren\> Hmm, the gaps in the 6502 instruction set are highly regular, so a 16 entry table would definitly work
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21:19:27 <b_jonas> \oren\: nice, that's ahead of the 6502's time, I thought that kind of thing would start only at processors with memory protection, when the cpu could no longer afford for unprivilaged processes to run instructions they don't implement properly
21:23:53 <zzo38> gamemanj: OK I looked at what you wrote I think it can be a good design
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21:27:08 <gamemanj> Also note that !RESET should probably be buffered, and only updated when the clock goes low - this is because if RESET went off just before the clock went high, then it could change state before the RESET-off had propagated
21:28:18 <gamemanj> and as the default value of the AND'd clock during RESET is *low*, updating when clock goes low means that clock should stay low for the next cycle.
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21:51:28 <int-e> oh, good, I didn't introduce that bug.
21:54:11 <lambdabot> pointful <expr>. Make code pointier.
21:54:22 <lambdabot> pointless <expr>. Play with pointfree code.
21:54:24 <shachaf> \oren\: also known as "knit" hth
21:54:43 <int-e> anyway I have code that produces \ b0 -> b0 b0 instead, now.
21:54:54 <shachaf> That's not even valid Haskell.
21:55:02 <shachaf> You should add a spot of the type checking.
21:55:49 <shachaf> @pl (\x -> x x) (\x -> f (x x))
21:55:50 <int-e> I'm at 1 file changed, 196 insertions(+), 97 deletions(-) just to handle alpha ... hopefully properly.
21:55:52 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
21:56:12 <shachaf> @pl (\x -> f (x x)) (\x -> f (x x))
21:56:15 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
21:56:26 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
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21:56:40 <int-e> what are you trying to do?
21:56:46 <shachaf> make it print a whole bunch of fs
21:56:55 <int-e> it keeps the shortest result
21:57:43 <shachaf> this irc channel is unfortunately too narrow to contain it
21:58:23 <\oren\> `le/rn pointfree/Pointfree programming sounds better than pointless programming.
21:58:40 <HackEgo> flag of #esoteric? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:58:52 <lambdabot> pointless <expr>. Play with pointfree code.
21:58:53 <hppavilion[1]> The flag of #esoteric is, of course, 6-dimensional
21:59:00 <shachaf> point-free ought to have a hyphen
21:59:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: fonzie: not found
21:59:39 <shachaf> also your joke is old and overdone hth
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23:37:15 <rntz> shachaf told me someone here knows a bunch about the 100-prisoners-and-a-lightbulb puzzle?
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23:37:44 <oerjan> ...did all of this happen since i left...
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23:38:49 <b_jonas> rtnz: there was a good article about that
23:39:00 <b_jonas> rtnz: let me try to find it
23:39:20 <rntz> there are several, I think... do you mean the Wu paper?
23:40:10 <b_jonas> rntz: dunno, do you have a link?
23:40:33 <shachaf> I was thinking of int-e but I might be wrong.
23:40:39 <rntz> https://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wwu/papers/100prisonersLightBulb.pdf
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23:46:29 <hppavilion[1]> Hm... are there any Chess-like board games featuring modal logic?
23:47:00 <zzo38> I don't know; do you know how to make up such a game?
23:52:13 <zzo38> But I also don't know.
23:52:26 <hppavilion[1]> All my life, I think I've been searching for something
23:52:42 <hppavilion[1]> I've always felt like there's something I'm supposed to find
23:53:09 <zzo38> What kind of thing do you think you are trying to find?
23:53:30 <hppavilion[1]> I think I might have found it at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_on_a_Really_Big_Board
23:53:40 <hppavilion[1]> Unfortunately, my browser crashes every time I try to open that page
00:04:51 <lynn> rntz: "where the last equality follows after an orgy of algebra." help
00:08:04 <int-e> I may have mentioned the 100 prisoners puzzle, yeah...
00:09:30 <rntz> int-e: do you know of a solution to the variant where (1) you can't count days (2) every prisoner must have the same strategy?
00:10:37 <rntz> I have a solution, that I think I have found a faster version for, but I am not sure the faster one is still correct
00:14:16 <int-e> hmm, I'm interested, but not right now ... too tired from lambdabot hacking.
00:14:52 <int-e> I've mostly worked with the timed version though, so this may be tricky.
00:18:40 <b_jonas> `? post-industrial semi-punk nekronoise ambient happy hardcore triphop shoegaze
00:18:55 <HackEgo> post-industrial semi-punk nekronoise ambient happy hardcore triphop shoegaze? ¯\(°_o)/¯
00:21:16 <int-e> meh and of course I broke lambdabot on ghc 7.8 :/
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00:22:17 <int-e> "Not in scope: ‘<$>’" ... AMP!
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00:24:05 -!- hppavilion[2] has changed nick to hppavilion[1].
00:24:22 * oerjan gets drawn into ghc trac again, despite having no ghc on his computer
00:24:59 <lambdabot> (Eq a, Foldable t) => a -> t a -> Bool
00:25:22 <zzo38> Is it possible to configure vim so that the delete key does not save it in the buffer (but d and x keys do)?
00:25:33 <int-e> oerjan: ghc 7.8.4 wants Set.member instead.
00:26:22 <lambdabot> (Eq a, Foldable t) => a -> t a -> Bool
00:26:31 <oerjan> hm i guess lambdabot isn't using that
00:26:53 <oerjan> int-e: doesn't import Foldable (elem) help?
00:27:05 <int-e> oerjan: then I have to hide the list one ... not going there.
00:27:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: do you mean to day that the delete key does not save what it deletes to the "" register (that's the register the p command pastes from by default)? If so, map that key to "_x
00:28:59 <zzo38> OK yes I think that could work (I do intend that regardless of normal mode, visual mode, and insertion mode)
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00:29:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: freenode's #vim channel is good so if you can't get help here you can always ask there
00:29:53 <int-e> but hey, at least my work on the travis setup is paying off... building 3 1/2 minutes :)
00:30:24 <zzo38> b_jonas: OK thanks
00:30:56 <oerjan> int-e: alas, the 3-release property doesn't apply to avoiding stupid import tricks. (if it's still alive at all. i'm still stuck back in March.)
00:31:24 <zzo38> int-e: What is that? I have seen files called "travis" in some source code repositories but is that related?
00:31:39 <oerjan> my fingers seem to think only the fist and last letters count.
00:31:39 <int-e> https://travis-ci.org/
00:31:48 <HackEgo> b_jonas can't spell? ¯\(°_o)/¯
00:31:48 * oerjan saw that one and refued to fix it.
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00:33:21 <int-e> oerjan: https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/compare/b1c2abdf3f06...8389c69f3b27 ... I even used liftM!
00:35:51 <b_jonas> `slashlearn b_jonas can't spell/b_jonas can't spell these words: weird, hygiene, etymology, mysterious, Odyssey, myopia, carbohydrate, appearance, maintenance, existence, heard, appropriate; and confuses these sets of words: then, than; drought, draught/draft; couch, coach; depreciate, deprecate; dilate, dilute, delate; contiguous, continuous.
00:35:53 <HackEgo> Learned «b_jonas can't spell»
00:36:00 <HackEgo> b_jonas can't spell these words: weird, hygiene, etymology, mysterious, Odyssey, myopia, carbohydrate, appearance, maintenance, existence, heard, appropriate; and confuses these sets of words: then, than; drought, draught/draft; couch, coach; depreciate, deprecate; dilate, dilute, delate; contiguous, continuous.
00:37:22 <int-e> yeah I'm disappointed that there's no typo in that list, too.
00:37:42 <b_jonas> int-e: there isn't? I thought there'd be one even if I didn't try to put one in
00:38:07 <b_jonas> There's also the three nouns trace vs track vs trail, of which the difference nobody managed to properly explain to me. I asked a few times, but got contradictory explanations.
00:38:25 <b_jonas> ``` cd wisdom && grep amorti *
00:38:35 <HackEgo> grep: le: Is a directory \ grep: ¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: ¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ amortized:An amortized word is a word that oerjan can never remember. \ oerjan:Your retired mysterious evil cackling overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a passion. H
00:38:45 <b_jonas> ``` cd wisdom && grep --no-messages amorti *
00:38:46 <HackEgo> amortized:An amortized word is a word that oerjan can never remember. \ oerjan:Your retired mysterious evil cackling overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a passion. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is B
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00:39:27 <int-e> `` grep -l mortif wisdom/*
00:39:30 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ wisdom/reflection
00:39:54 <int-e> `` find wisdom -type f -print0 | xargs grepp -l mortif
00:39:56 <HackEgo> xargs: Warning: a NUL character occurred in the input. It cannot be passed through in the argument list. Did you mean to use the --null option? \ xargs: grepp: No such file or directory
00:40:01 <int-e> `` find wisdom -type f -print0 | xargs -0 grepp -l mortif
00:40:03 <HackEgo> xargs: grepp: No such file or directory
00:40:10 <int-e> I'm too stupid for this.
00:40:14 <int-e> `` find wisdom -type f -print0 | xargs -0 grep -l mortif
00:40:55 <b_jonas> `slashlearn post-industrial semi-punk nekronoise ambient happy hardcore triphop shoegaze/Post-industrial semi-punk nekronoise ambient happy hardcore triphop shoegaze is the genre of the Autobanh album "Nagelbett" according to http://thedailywtf.com/articles/Yo-Ho%2c-Yo-Ho%2c-A-Pirates-Life-for-Lee .
00:40:59 <HackEgo> Learned «post-industrial semi-punk nekronoise ambient happy hardcore triphop shoegaze»
00:42:49 <int-e> `sedlast s/banh/bahn/
00:43:11 <HackEgo> wisdom/post-industrial semi-punk nekronoise ambient happy hardcore triphop shoegaze//Post-industrial semi-punk nekronoise ambient happy hardcore triphop shoegaze is the genre of the Autobahn album "Nagelbett" according to http://thedailywtf.com/articles/Yo-Ho%2c-Yo-Ho%2c-A-Pirates-Life-for-Lee .
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00:57:49 <b_jonas> `slashlearn iron general/The Iron General is Siona Patricia pa-Lehyll pa-Drusia Ishgur-Sal, Lady of Tyren, sometime general in His Majesty's army, dame of the Empire, and senator of Tuqnil, in http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2003-12-04.0383.html
00:58:42 <oerjan> b_jonas: madore is writing fantasy fiction?
00:59:15 <b_jonas> oerjan: probably more sci-fi. http://www.madore.org/~david/lit/god.html definitely counts as sci-fi to me.
00:59:40 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember years ago we found some erotic gay elf lotr fanfic he wrote
00:59:49 <Phantom_Hoover> but it was in french so it looked a lot more classy than that
01:00:00 <b_jonas> `learn John is not Hziulquoigmnzhah of Cykranosh, the dread spawn of Cxaxukluth, according to http://smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=4072
01:00:04 <HackEgo> Learned 'john': John is not Hziulquoigmnzhah of Cykranosh, the dread spawn of Cxaxukluth, according to http://smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=4072
01:01:47 <oerjan> b_jonas: damn guessed wrong.
01:02:31 <shachaf> b_jonas: you seem to be adding a lot of spurious wisdom entries
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01:03:35 <b_jonas> shachaf: I probably am. what wisdom entry do you not count as spurious, or what is your idea about the real goal HackEgo wisdom should serve?
01:03:51 <shachaf> but why are you adding these
01:04:01 <b_jonas> shachaf: they amuse me, usually
01:04:16 <b_jonas> most of them probably have no purpose, but maybe a few will inspire other people
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01:21:55 <quintopia> shachaf: none are spurious. each is 100% accurate. All are superfluous, just like everything in the wisdomdb
01:22:16 <shachaf> that's probably the word i meant tdh
01:22:30 <shachaf> oerjan's wisdom entries are great, though
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01:23:34 <oerjan> FreeFull: ordinary milk or filmjölk?
01:24:03 <oerjan> hm am i confusing you with a swede again
01:24:15 * oerjan swats FireFly for being confusable -----###
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01:26:19 <FireFly> It's like milk except thicker
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01:31:17 <hppavilion[1]> I hate it when people attribute their lack of ability to use advanced software features to "it's glitchy"
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01:40:56 * oerjan thinks we may be somewhat out of sync. the last one was 4 days ago.
01:42:30 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: conclusion: the ability to use advanced software depends on being able to ignore glitches.
01:42:50 <oerjan> this is in line with my experience hth
01:44:08 <boily> . o O ( Thellørjanium... even more awesome than adamantium and that other Marvel or DC stuff.. )
01:56:15 -!- hydraz has changed nick to shydraz.
01:56:38 <oerjan> shydraz: feeling supersymmetric today?
01:57:21 <shydraz> uh, shit, I need to look up this joke
01:59:22 <boily> fungot: what is supersymmetry?
01:59:23 <fungot> boily: mr president, ten days ago. on that occasion it was in favour of certain amendments which had just crossed a military fnord into iran? obviously not! that would be the last time a pharmacist shot another pharmacist to control the safety and effectiveness of the project, to ensure observance of the democratic clause is very directly related to the reduction of prices, especially in regions which are situated just below th
02:00:03 <oerjan> it seems iran is developing it. we're probably doomed.
02:00:26 -!- shydraz has changed nick to hydraz.
02:00:38 <oerjan> also, it involves pharmacy rather than nuclear physics.
02:00:56 <hydraz> oerjan: since I didn't understand the wikipedia page - something to do with quantum mechanics? -, I'll just revert to my non-quantum-mechanical nick.
02:01:42 <oerjan> hydraz: i'm afraid that to become supersymmetric, you must already have been quantum mechanical to start with.
02:02:02 <hydraz> oerjan: so am I dead or am or alive?
02:02:12 <boily> hydraz: you are FM hth
02:02:14 <oerjan> just pull out all the stops. also the sbottoms.
02:02:33 * boily *THWACKS* oerjan. 0.9 shachafs.
02:02:43 <oerjan> boily: hey i'm just trying to give hints here
02:03:23 <boily> a good one. you scored high.
02:04:31 <oerjan> hydraz: i don't know, could you come in for observation?
02:04:50 <b_jonas> hydraz: the fizikusinduló (a party song the physicist students here use as their anthem) asks whether they're dead or alive.eeee
02:05:04 <hydraz> oerjan: I would, but I collapsed on the street.
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02:05:35 <oerjan> hydraz: well you still sound coherent.
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02:07:46 <oerjan> `learn admn is the curse of people with cdop.
02:07:52 <HackEgo> Learned 'admn': admn is the curse of people with cdop.
02:08:33 <boily> admn? cdop? Abyssal Decoherent Malady of the Nerves? Chronic Disposition of Pneumonia?
02:09:54 * oerjan slightly impressed that google translate guessed what language "indul" was
02:10:19 <oerjan> hm we don't have that yet?
02:10:46 <oerjan> `learn CDOP is OCPD, except with the letters in the *proper* order.
02:10:49 <HackEgo> Learned 'cdop': CDOP is OCPD, except with the letters in the *proper* order.
02:18:25 <boily> tiles were shuffled!
02:18:31 <boily> did you sunday well?
02:20:34 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> https://youtu.be/abv4Fz7oNr0 forces me to beg the question of what the 3.5th digit of pi is <-- hm i can see one obvious interpretation
02:20:58 <oerjan> namely, the 3rd digit of pi*sqrt(10)
02:21:10 <hppavilion[1]> http://www.5z8.info/-OPEN-WEBCAM---START-RECORD--_q3f8oq_whitepower
02:21:46 <boily> hppavellon[1]. uhm... not sure I want to click on a white power link hth
02:22:11 <boily> hppavilion[1]: nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooohth
02:22:23 <oerjan> does someone need a good kicking
02:22:38 <boily> hppavilion[1]: I clicked. HA HA HA :D
02:24:01 <hppavilion[1]> You guys make it very hard not to shoot the puppy <http://www.rrrrthats5rs.com/games/dont-shoot-the-puppy/>
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02:47:34 <fizzie> "Shouldn't that be 20?"
02:50:00 <fizzie> > (9**2 + 19**2/22)**(1/4) - pi
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04:05:02 <Sgeo> Well, http://jobs.sportsauthority.com/ seems like a really bad idea for a new job
04:11:29 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Integral b0) arising from a use of ‘^’
04:11:30 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type of it :: Floating a => a
04:17:44 <lifthrasiir> FreeFull: probably the most succinct almost integer in terms of error per term & digit ratio
04:18:49 <lifthrasiir> e^(pi sqrt(163)) is also succinct, but its large quantity makes it a bit strange
04:20:11 <lifthrasiir> you can try to define the complexity of expression with some kind of normalized string (RIES does this, FYI)
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05:16:30 <hppavilion[1]> http://www.theage.com.au/entertainment/when-a-computer-scammer-tries-to-open-my-windows-porn-saves-the-day-20140201-31u1c.html 8=D
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07:38:50 <hppavilion[1]> Hm... What would happen if you withdrew negative dollars?
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07:51:23 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: That's part of Infocom's game, _Bureaucracy_.
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08:25:03 <zzo38> Does Xlib have any functions to convert a picture without opening a display connection?
08:32:35 <zzo38> (I suppose XGetPixel and XPutPixel could be used to do it very slowly)
08:33:58 <shachaf> Don't those require a display connection?
08:35:21 <zzo38> Those functions don't. XInitImage, XSubImage, XAddPixel, and XDestroyImage also don't.
08:37:07 <zzo38> (XCreateImage requires a display connection, although another way to create a XImage is to fill in the structure yourself and then call XInitImage.)
08:47:12 <hppavilion[1]> What's the name of the idea of a chip which, on your early death, simulates a perfect happy lifetime?
08:48:59 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: go easy on your EBEs
08:49:43 <shachaf> @google go easy on your EBEs
08:49:43 <lambdabot> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spF6A2QK31s
08:51:45 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: OK, but that's not the concept of that chip
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09:03:04 <hppavilion[1]> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4CRCJUmWsM&index=2&list=PLV9ZS-zCs2ZS7Ut3LzOZ4NG7oZwn8BY8i is.......... interesting
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09:26:26 <shachaf> You can probably trace a lot of this channel to Look Around You if you try.
09:26:42 <shachaf> For example, porthelleaus.
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09:40:16 <zzo38> Do you have a copy of the instructions on the envelope of a IBM flowchart template?
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10:11:58 <b_jonas> huh, who's the guest artist of today's Dilbert?
10:12:44 <b_jonas> ah, "jake tapper" is probably the name of the artist
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10:21:14 <izabera> http://www.tiltbrush.com coooooooool
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14:04:12 <HackEgo> transformer//A transformer is one who used to trans, but no longer does.
14:05:16 <HackEgo> oren//oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a.
14:05:25 <HackEgo> Lifeforce \ GG \ Enchantment \ {G}{G}: Counter target black spell. \ A-U, B-U, U-U, RV-U, 4E-U, 5E-U, ME4-R
14:06:13 <b_jonas> eww, that's a strange card
14:06:51 <boily> there are non-blue counters?
14:07:32 <b_jonas> boily: sure, there's a very few white ones
14:07:53 <b_jonas> boily: and you've probably heared of
14:07:59 <b_jonas> `card-by-name Red Elemental Blast
14:08:01 <HackEgo> Red Elemental Blast \ R \ Instant \ Choose one -- \ · Counter target blue spell. \ · Destroy target blue permanent. \ A-C, B-C, U-C, RV-C, 4E-C, ME4-U
14:11:32 <b_jonas> boily: there's Dawn Charm and Rebuff the Wicked and Vigilant Martyr which are specific against some spells, then there's a recent strange example of Frontline Medic, Mana Tithe which is a colorshifted card from planar chaos,
14:11:50 <b_jonas> but the best example is Lapse of Certainty which is a general counterspell in white.
14:13:46 <b_jonas> `card-by-name Lapse of Certainty
14:13:49 <HackEgo> Lapse of Certainty \ 2W \ Instant \ Counter target spell. If that spell is countered this way, put it on top of its owner's library instead of into that player's graveyard. \ CON-C
14:13:56 <b_jonas> `card-by-name Excommunicate
14:13:59 <HackEgo> Excommunicate \ 2W \ Sorcery \ Put target creature on top of its owner's library. \ ALA-C, M10-C, M11-C
14:15:18 * boily shudders at the wrongness of those cards
14:16:52 <b_jonas> boily: if it's any comfort to you, I don't think you'll see color hosers like Lifeforce or Red Elemental Blast in the future for a while
14:18:05 <b_jonas> The white counterspells are a bit strange, because if white wants to protect their permanents from spells, he should just give them protection, which white could traditionally do cheaply, though it's getting rare in recent sets.
14:19:09 <HackEgo> Deathgrip \ BB \ Enchantment \ {B}{B}: Counter target green spell. \ A-U, B-U, U-U, RV-U, 4E-U, 5E-U, ME4-R
14:19:24 <b_jonas> ^ I think that's paired with Lifeforce
14:19:34 <HackEgo> Dash Hopes \ BB \ Instant \ When you cast Dash Hopes, any player may pay 5 life. If a player does, counter Dash Hopes. \ Counter target spell. \ PLC-C
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14:20:41 <HackEgo> Stromgald Cabal? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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14:21:10 <HackEgo> Withering Boom? ¯\(°_o)/¯
14:21:18 <HackEgo> Withering Boon? ¯\(°_o)/¯
14:21:20 <HackEgo> Withering Boob? ¯\(°_o)/¯
14:21:28 <HackEgo> Stromgald Cabal \ 1BB \ Creature -- Human Knight \ 2/2 \ {T}, Pay 1 life: Counter target white spell. \ IA-R, 5E-R, 6E-R, ME2-R \ \ Stromgald Crusader \ BB \ Creature -- Zombie Knight \ 2/1 \ Protection from white \ {B}: Stromgald Crusader gains flying until end of turn. \ {B}{B}: Stromgald Crusader gets +1/+0 until end of turn. \ CSP-U \ \ Strom
14:21:32 <b_jonas> `card-by-name withering boo
14:21:33 <HackEgo> Withering Boon \ 1B \ Instant \ As an additional cost to cast Withering Boon, pay 3 life. \ Counter target creature spell. \ MI-U
14:22:15 <b_jonas> oh, there's another Red Elemental Blast too:
14:22:22 <HackEgo> Burnout \ 1R \ Instant \ Counter target instant spell if it's blue. \ Draw a card at the beginning of the next turn's upkeep. \ AI-U, ME2-U
14:23:55 <b_jonas> `card-by-name Mages' Contest
14:23:57 <HackEgo> Mages' Contest \ 1RR \ Instant \ You and target spell's controller bid life. You start the bidding with a bid of 1. In turn order, each player may top the high bid. The bidding ends if the high bid stands. The high bidder loses life equal to the high bid. If you win the bidding, counter that spell. \ IN-R
14:24:15 <b_jonas> `card-by-name Molten Influence
14:24:17 <HackEgo> Molten Influence \ 1R \ Instant \ Counter target instant or sorcery spell unless its controller has Molten Influence deal 4 damage to him or her. \ OD-R
14:24:24 <b_jonas> ^ that one is like Dash Hopes but even worse
14:25:03 <HackEgo> Pyroblast \ R \ Instant \ Choose one -- \ · Counter target spell if it's blue. \ · Destroy target permanent if it's blue. \ IA-C, 5E-U, MED-C
14:25:12 <b_jonas> ^ wait, did they put a red elemental blast in every early set?
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14:37:03 <ais523> b_jonas: I think Pyroblast was a rules-errata version of REB
14:37:33 <ais523> the idea being that you can pyroblast something that isn't blue, and recolor it, even in an old version of the rules where instants worked weirdly
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14:40:31 <ais523> @tell shachaf I don't think the malware was literally written in 90; it's the same spirit, but I think it used a different mechanism to recognise what and where to patch
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14:56:03 <HackEgo> mroman is a leading artist in password security (SFW). He also likes black madness. He can design password hashes that are worse than the identity function. He invented the identity function. He's also an artist in unconventional warfare.
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15:06:00 <ais523> hmm, I understand how a function could be worse at hashing password than the identity function
15:06:11 <ais523> however I feel that it's dubious that it could be called a password hashing function, in such a case
15:06:17 <boily> I fail to see how a hash could be worse than identity.
15:07:05 <ais523> it could waste a lot of space in the result, make the original password still reasonably recoverable, /and/ have collisions
15:07:38 <ais523> I'd say that'd be worse than the identity function at password hashing in basically every way
15:07:57 <boily> I feel tainted. I'ma gonna wash some dishes to cleanse myself.
15:08:08 <ais523> <spambot> Did Humanity Descend From Aliens?
15:08:13 <ais523> not opening the message though
15:09:18 <int-e> . o O ( `sedtopic s/international/alien/ )
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15:29:18 -!- boily has set topic: The alien hub of solidity matrices | Ingredients: Hydrogen, time, stevia | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
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16:24:14 <\oren\> it doesn't taste much like sugar, but I like it in its own right
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16:26:17 <\oren\> gamemanj: do you like stevia?
16:26:47 <gamemanj> conclusion. it does not exist.
16:27:30 <\oren\> it's a chemical that is used as a sweetener
16:28:24 <gamemanj> Since I didn't know about it, I wouldn't know of any interactions.
16:28:25 <\oren\> it is used in pepsi next
16:29:53 <gamemanj> ...I don't believe I've had any interactions with <tmTkn:PepsiNext>, either.
16:30:40 <\oren\> what sodas do you like?
16:31:05 <gamemanj> ...why is this information of relevance?
16:31:53 <gamemanj> ...information limit cut-out has triggered, you have reached your monthly limit on information.
16:32:10 <\oren\> well boily just put stevia on the list of ingredients for the alien hub of solidity matrices
16:32:34 <gamemanj> Well, I don't have any known dislike of stevia.
16:33:30 <\oren\> wait how did you do that?
16:34:03 <boily> he\\oren\. I didn't put stevia hth
16:34:56 <gamemanj> It's useful for making your text sloped. Like this. Like that text feature that can be overused. A lot!
16:35:04 <gamemanj> huh, you somehow managed to write 0x89
16:35:40 <\oren\> ctrl shift i gives me a 0x89
16:36:03 <gamemanj> If I'm reading the letters correctly, you want 0x10. (Not 0x0A)
16:36:28 <gamemanj> Trouble is, I can't copy it to you since it would be invisible.
16:38:06 <HackEgo> U+0010 <control> \ UTF-8: 10 UTF-16BE: 0010 Decimal:  \ \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral)
16:38:27 <gamemanj> so apparently I got the wrong letter
16:38:53 <HackEgo> U+001D <control> \ UTF-8: 1d UTF-16BE: 001d Decimal:  \ \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: B (Paragraph Separator)
16:40:54 <gamemanj> Ah, you're using a terminal-based chat client
16:41:14 <\oren\> over two tmuxes and sshes, no less
16:42:07 <\oren\> yes. I ssh into my home server, run tmux, ssh over to my website, run tmux, run irssi!
16:43:37 <\oren\> and the terminal itself is mintty on cygwin
16:46:14 <\oren\> frankly mintty is better than the terminal I use on linux
16:48:11 <gamemanj> I prefer terminals that are in my way... it's kind of hard to reach if it's out of my way
16:49:33 <\oren\> that is to say , it runs wihtout a menu bar, and has very few keyboard shortcuts.
16:50:51 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude.
16:53:12 <\oren\> Oh, and it lets me turn off font blurring
16:53:52 <gamemanj> "font blurring" is the correct term for anti-aliasing, I presume?
16:54:08 <gamemanj> why can't we all use pixel fonts
16:54:44 <boily>
16:55:27 <boily> it's not broken :D
16:55:50 <\oren\> I can do that too!
16:56:23 <\oren\> control shift gives you the upper bytes
16:57:16 <gamemanj> so, what meaning are these supposed to have again?
16:57:27 <boily> does Ctrl-Shift-U then typing the codepoint in hex work for you guys?
16:58:14 <boily> fungot: Wꙮrship the multiꙮcular ꙮ!
16:58:15 <fungot> boily: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, the basis of sex in all matters covered by this directive also protect mr fatuzzo' s explanations about the long internal process involved in this area. on the eve of the european people do not leave their homes nor to work are preventing us from considering a new form of cooperation is the large-scale violation of intellectual property and investments. trade talks have already been me
16:58:22 <boily> gamemanj: a random kanji hth
16:59:40 <gamemanj> I'm guessing this is the emoji for "injection needle": ሰ
17:02:43 <gamemanj> "intellectual property" aka "we want more money"
17:04:21 <gamemanj> Is that a random character or a really fancy way of doing "^"?
17:04:42 <\oren\> Aha, hold down alt, then type numpad + followed by the hex code of the unicode char
17:05:39 <gamemanj> huh. typing in "cat" with 7 for "t" gives me '§'.
17:05:58 <HackEgo> U+00A7 SECTION SIGN \ UTF-8: c2 a7 UTF-16BE: 00a7 Decimal: § \ § \ Category: Po (Punctuation, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
17:06:59 <gamemanj> ah, *don't* hold shift-ctrl during the actual typing of hex
17:07:31 <HackEgo> U+0CA7 KANNADA LETTER DHA \ UTF-8: e0 b2 a7 UTF-16BE: 0ca7 Decimal: ಧ \ ಧ \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
17:07:34 <\oren\> interesting. the windows method requires flexible hands
17:08:27 <gamemanj> Well, they had to address the market for three-handed aliens.
17:08:32 <\oren\> wait, so you typed control-shift-c?
17:08:53 <\oren\> isn't that copy on linux?
17:09:06 <gamemanj> oren: Ctrl-Shift-U Ctrl-Shift-C Ctrl-Shift-A Ctrl-Shift-7 == uca7... and I'm not using a terminal.
17:09:22 <gamemanj> But apparently it ignored the "c".
17:11:10 <gamemanj> So apparently it didn't like me trying to enter in U+FFFFFFFF
17:12:08 <gamemanj> But apparently this is fine.
17:12:27 <HackEgo> U+FFFFF - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: f3 bf bf bf UTF-16BE: dbbfdfff Decimal:  \ () \ Uppercase: U+FFFFF \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned)
17:13:08 <\oren\> well the maximum unicode character is 10ffff i think
17:13:44 <HackEgo> U+10FFFF - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: f4 8f bf bf UTF-16BE: dbffdfff Decimal:  \ () \ Uppercase: U+10FFFF \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned)
17:14:36 <HackEgo> U+1FFFF - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: f0 9f bf bf UTF-16BE: d83fdfff Decimal:  \ () \ Uppercase: U+1FFFF \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned)
17:14:53 <\oren\> yeah it won't do 11ffff
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17:43:34 <b_jonas> poster writes a whimsical example of what you shouldn't do, and then we start to bikeshed the details of the whimsical example in a comment thread
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17:50:03 <gamemanj> did I miss a message or something?
17:51:39 <b_jonas> Is the guy in http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3225 someone we'd seen before?
17:53:44 <gamemanj> I don't recall any character like that...
17:55:28 <gamemanj> Reminder: "uneventful" == "events are about to happen"
18:00:23 <FireFly> \oren\: SQUARE CORPORATION eh, so Square has their own codepoint
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18:46:46 <izabera> i found the most useful website in the history of useful websites
18:46:50 <izabera> http://www.animefillerlist.com
19:03:12 -!- contrapumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
19:03:39 <shachaf> copumpkin: congratulations on the covariance
19:04:55 <gamemanj> izabera: but... but I liked the filler...
19:05:33 <izabera> i'm rewatching bleach and i'm after the first arc and i'm so glad i can skip the bount arc
19:05:51 <gamemanj> izabera: IDK. I'm just saying that to see what possible response I get.
19:07:15 <shachaf> copumpkin: what if i caused a book to be delivered to you so you don't have to read dubious online versions of a short story
19:07:56 <copumpkin> hah, I'd probably read it, but I could also just set aside time to read the online one. How long of a read is it?
19:08:33 <shachaf> All the good online versions have disappeared so now there are only terrible ones.
19:08:44 <gamemanj> And how is "filler" classed? An episode may have no bearing on the "main" plot, but time still goes on, and at the theoretical end of the "main plot", it will have had no bearing on that fact. Importance is relative.
19:08:47 <shachaf> Anyway is this story even worth all the trouble I put into it? Probably not.
19:09:11 <shachaf> http://www.ibooksonline.com/88/Text/liking.html
19:09:36 <gamemanj> There are on occasion differences between anime & manga continuities, and "filler" based on things not in the manga may actually be of more importance than it seems.
19:13:28 <shachaf> copumpkin: But the other stories in that book are good too.
19:13:47 <shachaf> copumpkin: So maybe you should read the whole book anyway.
19:19:00 <izabera> gamemanj: can you come up with an example?
19:22:29 <shachaf> But it's all short stories.
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19:25:19 <lambdabot> CYUL 231800Z VRB04KT 30SM FEW240 25/03 A2995 RMK CI1 SLP143 DENSITY ALT 1200FT
19:25:31 <boily> such a beautiful day. it's summer at last!
19:26:40 <shachaf> I don't know where in VA copumpkin is.
19:26:43 <lambdabot> KORF 231816Z AUTO 03012KT 10SM SCT016 BKN022 OVC034 17/13 A2991 RMK AO2 T01670128 TSNO
19:27:07 <copumpkin> shachaf: hah, gimme an amazon link and I'll throw it into my next ordr
19:27:31 <shachaf> @google stories of your life amazon
19:27:33 <lambdabot> http://www.amazon.com/Stories-Your-Life-Others-Chiang/dp/1931520720
19:27:33 <lambdabot> Title: Amazon.com: Stories of Your Life and Others (9781931520720): Ted Chiang: Books
19:28:15 <copumpkin> http://www.amazon.com/Stories-Your-Life-Others-Chiang/dp/1101972122?ie=UTF8&qid=&ref_=tmm_pap_swatch_0&sr=
19:28:45 <shachaf> Oh, I guess that's the paperback.
19:28:56 <shachaf> No, the other one is also a paperback.
19:28:59 <shachaf> I guess it's a new edition?
19:29:13 <copumpkin> ah, it wasn't letting me buy the other one you linked to
19:29:13 <shachaf> This book is from 2002 or something.
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19:32:22 <boily> only 17° in Norfolk? it's 1 000 km south from here!
19:32:57 <lambdabot> ENVA 231820Z 29009KT 9999 FEW017 BKN025 08/05 Q1018 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 29014KT
19:33:23 <shachaf> copumpkin: Anyway my link is already available.
19:33:39 <boily> gamellomanj. nothing else.
19:34:26 <copumpkin> or wait another couple of weeks for the new edition
19:34:32 <copumpkin> probabilistically I won't be reading it before then anyway
19:35:24 <HackEgo> copumpkin is categorically incapable of being president.
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19:44:15 <shachaf> copumpkin: can you prove you weren't born in the united states though
19:44:28 <shachaf> otherwise we're voting for you
19:44:57 <gamemanj> Oh, and if you prove you're from England, then I'm tempted to vote for you in the next GE...
19:45:17 <gamemanj> You'd be better than the current bunch of clowns and fools
19:45:42 <shachaf> General Elections are conducted by General Electric
19:46:59 <shachaf> copumpkin: did we ever talk about chu spaces hth
19:47:15 <gamemanj> Phantom_Hoover: I assumed it was sarcastic before people started agreeing
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19:53:14 <gamemanj> Well, wisdom doesn't know about it... so it probably doesn't exist. (The Quantum Rule Of Wisdom says that anything that does exist retrospectively has a wisdom entry.)
19:54:44 <gamemanj> To be more precise, they stopped existing when a bunch of advertisers bought the last ones to take pictures to sell fake "carrot-like" food.
19:54:45 <\oren\> b_jonas: Chad is the guy who worked at the electronics store and declined to sell a microphone to a little girl
19:58:13 <\oren\> b_jonas: http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3132
19:59:04 <gamemanj> Is it just me or did a QC update appear in between a few hours ago and now
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20:00:10 <b_jonas> \oren\: no wait, that can't work
20:00:41 <b_jonas> \oren\: Chad in #3132 has brown eyes, and the guy in http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3225 has blue eyes. that's unlikely to have changed in the art upgrade
20:01:01 <b_jonas> I know I don't normally look at eye color, but in this case I have to
20:01:24 <gamemanj> Answer: Actor died, they replaced him, different eye colour. Don't question it.
20:01:39 <gamemanj> (This is quite obviously wrong.)
20:02:00 <b_jonas> gamemanj: not likely. unlike me, most people do care about eye color, so they'd use contact lenses or hire a different actor or post-process his eyes with computer.
20:03:51 <gamemanj> Another idea: Aha! Chad is a hallucination, and thus not consistent!
20:04:48 <gamemanj> Hallucination. Not consistent.
20:04:48 <int-e> it's not much, but Chad had facial hair.
20:05:06 <int-e> gamemanj: I don't believe in you.
20:05:22 <gamemanj> And yet I'm still here! Isn't continuity amazing?
20:05:58 <HackEgo> nitia is the inventor of all things. The BBC invented her.
20:06:11 <int-e> I have to admit that inertia is kind of cool.
20:06:39 <gamemanj> Well, where would all of those "ship floating dramatically through space" shots be without it?
20:07:01 <int-e> Or planets, or the Sun.
20:07:18 <int-e> Where would they be? Who knows...
20:07:38 <int-e> Or jumping around wildly.
20:08:19 <shachaf> int-e: Anything on the prisoner puzzle?
20:08:48 <gamemanj> Meh. The particulates that would otherwise bounce them around would probably have vacated the area long ago.
20:08:53 * int-e is just getting away from work.
20:09:16 * gamemanj pretends to be a labyrinth guard between int-e and int-e's domicile
20:11:00 <int-e> you need to put up some more substantial obstacle than a few pixels on my screen if you want to have any significant effect.
20:12:36 <gamemanj> int-e: If I am pretending to be a labyrinth guard, of one of the 3 varieties in which one always tells the truth, one always lies, and the last one flips a coin and bases their answer on that, and I tell you the door into your house is actually a portal into a land full of deadly lions... what would you do?
20:14:17 <b_jonas> fungot, if gamemanj is pretending to be a labyrinth guard, of one of the 3 varieties in which one always tells the truth, one always lies, and the last one flips a coin and bases their answer on that, and I tell you the door into your house is actually a portal into a land full of deadly lions... what would you do?
20:14:18 <fungot> b_jonas: i should like to say to our american partners a ceiling on compensation payments paid to workers. nevertheless, the committee on constitutional affairs has taken on huge proportions and catch the public imagination. i think it is truly deplorable that this should happen, that mr fava and mrs sanders-ten holte, first of all say that things have changed in afghanistan, they were able to arrive on time.
20:15:06 * gamemanj gives up pretending to be a labyrinth guard...
20:15:15 * gamemanj instead pretends to be a hyacinth. (What's a hyacinth? I don't know.)
20:16:40 <coppro> gamemanj: a kind of flower hth
20:17:23 <gamemanj> (In other news, they can't decide how hot a degree is...)
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20:43:19 <int-e> gamemanj: Are you a pot of petunias? I've read that those can turn into sperm whales.
20:43:34 <int-e> Or maybe vice versa, it's been a while.
20:43:55 <gamemanj> (no - I'm a pot containing hyacinth.)
20:44:07 <int-e> Too bad, I know nothing about those.
20:44:42 <int-e> Otoh that may improve your expected life span in the vicinity of Arthur.
20:44:45 <gamemanj> (*added to TODO : hitchhike on the back of a large whale.)
20:46:10 <gamemanj> (...interrupted task TODO:2016...! : busy doing task OFF... interrupted task OFF... busy doing task ZZO38CPU... interrupted task ZZO38CPU... busy doing task UNK283... interrupted task UNK283... busy doing TODO:2016...)
20:46:14 <int-e> It appears I'm not remembering things correctly.
20:46:25 <gamemanj> (at this rate I'm going to give up trying to keep track of my TODOs)
20:46:46 <int-e> The sperm whale was related to, but not the same entity as, the pot of petunias.
20:47:15 <gamemanj> (Did they happen to have a previous form in the shape of a missile and another missile respectively?)
20:47:31 <int-e> '"Then what's happened to the missiles?" he said. [...] "They would appear," said Ford doubtfully, "to have turned into a bowl of petunias and a very surprised looking whale ..."
20:48:50 <int-e> anyway, prisoners, hmm
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20:54:04 <int-e> shachaf: why did you ask?
20:56:24 <int-e> ok, but I knew that.
20:58:16 <int-e> it's not so hard to come up with strategies but I have no clue how to get expected values out of them.
20:58:42 <int-e> `le/rn troll/These are not the trolls you are looking for.
21:00:46 <int-e> `` sed -i s/troll/yeti/ wisdom/troll; mv wisdom/troll wisdom/yeti
21:01:09 <int-e> it's still bad, but better with the pun :-P
21:03:04 <HackEgo> These are not the yetis you are looking for.
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21:07:32 <b_jonas> ``` cd wisdom && find -iname "*gold*|*silver*|*copper*|*mercur*|*iron*|*tin*|*lead*|*zinc*|*um"
21:10:04 <izabera> use -iname pattern1 -o -iname pattern2
21:10:21 <b_jonas> ``` cd wisdom && perl -E 'say for glob split /\|/, "*gold*|*silver*|*copper*|*mercur*|*iron*|*tin*|*lead*|*zinc*|*um"'
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21:10:36 <b_jonas> ``` cd wisdom && perl -E 'say $_ for glob split /\|/, "*gold*|*silver*|*copper*|*mercur*|*iron*|*tin*|*lead*|*zinc*|*um"'
21:10:46 <b_jonas> ``` cd wisdom && perl -E 'say join " ", glob split /\|/, "*gold*|*silver*|*copper*|*mercur*|*iron*|*tin*|*lead*|*zinc*|*um"'
21:11:01 <b_jonas> ``` cd wisdom && perl -E 'say join " ", map glob, split /\|/, "*gold*|*silver*|*copper*|*mercur*|*iron*|*tin*|*lead*|*zinc*|*um"'
21:11:06 <HackEgo> extreme ironing extreme irony iron general accounting estin latin poutine procrastination te sting testing trisecting the angle webcarting amnesium corium lorem ipsum qzyzzalroum rhenium
21:11:19 <HackEgo> Extreme irony is what happens when you get a Darwin award for extreme ironing.
21:11:57 <HackEgo> estin didn't believe in automation.
21:12:08 <HackEgo> Corium is the material that a nuclear reactor's core dump is made of.
21:12:14 <HackEgo> Rhenium is a precious metal. It can be found nowhere in Earth because the Enemy has used up all of it for forging the One Ring.
21:12:48 <HackEgo> wisdom/qdb \ wisdom/quadrilateral \ wisdom/quebec \ wisdom/québec \ wisdom/quine \ wisdom/quintopia \ wisdom/quit \ wisdom/quote \ wisdom/quoteformat \ wisdom/qzyzzalroum
21:13:04 <HackEgo> You should start the crossword over.
21:13:21 * boily needs to update the PDF again...
21:14:59 <b_jonas> boily: why bother, there's not much new wisdom entries apart from my silly ones
21:15:55 <boily> b_jonas: the Wisdom is Universal. and Silly. it's Universilly hth
21:16:00 <HackEgo> al gore//Al Gore invented the algorithm and the internet.
21:16:04 <HackEgo> char//Char is a prominent component of charcoal.
21:16:05 <boily> hellochaf. please don't molest HackEgo hth
21:16:10 <HackEgo> duck//Duck typing means typing on a terminal blinding without an echo.
21:17:40 <shachaf> boily: i don't think that's a good analogy to use here
21:18:42 <HackEgo> Monoids are just categories with single objects.
21:20:21 * boily doesn't use the analogy
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21:27:30 <HackEgo> irctc796: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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21:39:31 <zzo38> I thought one way I should to do high resolution is the high mode bit controls double horizontal and double vertical resolution frame rate but monochrome, enabling a separate output circuit, that can output four pixels in place of just one. So it is 1280x960 resolution. Some other stuff is also changed in such mode.
21:39:52 <zzo38> (Some of these other changes allow to make more tiles per line)
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21:41:48 <HackEgo> In 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue.
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21:49:11 <boily> `? -- --- .-. ... .
21:49:13 <HackEgo> -- --- .-. ... .? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:51:30 <boily> `le/rn morse/- .... . / .-- .- .-.. .-. ..- ... / .. ... / .- / .-.. .- .-. --. . / ..-. .-.. .. .--. .--. . .-. . -.. / -- .- .-. .. -. . / -- .- -- -- .- .-..
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21:58:39 <boily> `le/rn morse/-- ..- .-. ... ..- / --- -. / ... ..- ..- .-. .. -.- --- -.- --- .. -. . -. / ..-. . ... .. . .-.. .-.- -- .-.- .-.- -. / ... --- .--. . ..- - ..- -. ..- - / .- .-. -.- - .. -. . -. / -. ... .-.- -.- .-.- ... .-.. .- .--- ..
21:59:03 <boily> better. at least it has mursu.
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22:13:32 <HackEgo> 1040) <shachaf> your first mistake was making your second mistake
22:13:34 <HackEgo> 508) <Phantom_Hoover> It is like the Holocaust but with Nazis.
22:13:38 <HackEgo> 915) <olsner> as long as you're in company where no-one knows both, you can always say either "that's just like welsh ll" or "that's just like klingon tlh"
22:13:38 <HackEgo> 314) <zzo38> I figured out something about C program. If you use ? : a lot then you don't need as much parentheses but it makes it more difficult to understand.
22:13:39 <HackEgo> 284) <oklopol> esperanto is just spanish with a diarrhea
22:16:22 <ais523> it reminds me of timing issues in NetHack
22:19:01 <hppavilion[1]> Has anybody implemented an emulator for https://xkcd.com/1442/ yet??
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22:22:58 <int-e> okay, simulation indicates that I can get the prisoners out after 21k visits to the room... and I have no clue what I'm doing exactly, so it's very likely that this is still far from optimal.
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22:24:07 <shachaf> Random order, no counting days, everyone uses same strategy?
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22:27:11 <int-e> http://sprunge.us/EHdZ is my "framework"
22:29:22 <boily> amulets of regeneration boost metabolism. does the same thing happen with amulets of magic regeneration?
22:30:36 <shachaf> Do amulets of restful sleep boost somnambulism?
22:31:32 <b_jonas> `learn ᛁᚿ ᛋᚿᛅᚠᚠᛚᛚᛋ ᛁᚮᚴᚢᛚᛁᛋ ᚴᛦᛆᛏᛅᛦᛅᛘ ᚴᛅᛘ ᚦᛅᛚᛁᛒᛆᛏ ᚢᛘᛒᛦᛆ ᛋᚴᛆᛦᛏᛆᛦᛁᛋ ᛁᚢᛚᛁᛁ ᛁᚿᛏᛦᛆ ᚴᛆᛚᛅᚿᚦᛆᛋ ᚦᛅᛋᚴᛅᚿᚦᛅ, ᛆᚢᚦᛆᛋ ᚢᛁᛆᛏᚮᛦ, ᛏᛅ ᛏᛅᛦᛦᛅᛋᛏᛦᛅ ᚴᛅᚿᛏᛦᚢᛘ ᛆᛏᛏᛁᚿgᛅᛋ. ᚴᚮᚦ ᚠᛅᚴᛁ. ᛆᛦᚿᛅ ᛋᛆᚴᚿᚢᛋᛋᛅᛯ
22:31:41 <HackEgo> Learned 'ᛁᚿ': ᛁᚿ ᛋᚿᛅᚠᚠᛚᛚᛋ ᛁᚮᚴᚢᛚᛁᛋ ᚴᛦᛆᛏᛅᛦᛅᛘ ᚴᛅᛘ ᚦᛅᛚᛁᛒᛆᛏ ᚢᛘᛒᛦᛆ ᛋᚴᛆᛦᛏᛆᛦᛁᛋ ᛁᚢᛚᛁᛁ ᛁᚿᛏᛦᛆ ᚴᛆᛚᛅᚿᚦᛆᛋ ᚦᛅᛋᚴᛅᚿᚦᛅ, ᛆᚢᚦᛆᛋ ᚢᛁᛆᛏᚮᛦ, ᛏᛅ ᛏᛅᛦᛦᛅᛋᛏᛦᛅ ᚴᛅᚿᛏᛦᚢᛘ
22:31:57 <b_jonas> Does someone know unicode encoding of futhark of different ages and can help with the encoding of some particular letters?
22:32:17 <int-e> shachaf: that link was for you ... it embodies the rules that I implemented :)
22:33:03 <b_jonas> The original writing is in https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Voyage_au_centre_de_la_Terre/Chapitre_2 , with the transcription to latin letters in https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Voyage_au_centre_de_la_Terre/Chapitre_3 and the decoding of the cipher in https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Voyage_au_centre_de_la_Terre/Chapitre_5
22:33:19 <shachaf> Hmm, is the problem solvable if you don't know N?
22:34:30 <HackEgo> ᛁᚿ ᛋᚿᛅᚠᚠᛚᛚᛋ ᛁᚮᚴᚢᛚᛁᛋ ᚴᛦᛆᛏᛅᛦᛅᛘ ᚴᛅᛘ ᚦᛅᛚᛁᛒᛆᛏ ᚢᛘᛒᛦᛆ ᛋᚴᛆᛦᛏᛆᛦᛁᛋ ᛁᚢᛚᛁᛁ ᛁᚿᛏᛦᛆ ᚴᛆᛚᛅᚿᚦᛆᛋ ᚦᛅᛋᚴᛅᚿᚦᛅ, ᛆᚢᚦᛆᛋ ᚢᛁᛆᛏᚮᛦ, ᛏᛅ ᛏᛅᛦᛦᛅᛋᛏᛦᛅ ᚴᛅᚿᛏᛦᚢᛘ ᛆᛏᛏᛁᚿg
22:34:40 <shachaf> Oh, you're starting the light off.
22:34:57 <b_jonas> ``` >> wisdom/ᛁᚿ ᛅᛋ. ᚴᚮᚦ ᚠᛅᚴᛁ. ᛆᛦᚿᛅ ᛋᛆᚴᚿᚢᛋᛋᛅᛯ
22:34:58 <HackEgo> bash: $'\341\233\205\341\233\213.': command not found
22:35:08 <b_jonas> ``` >> wisdom/ᛁᚿ 'ᛅᛋ. ᚴᚮᚦ ᚠᛅᚴᛁ. ᛆᛦᚿᛅ ᛋᛆᚴᚿᚢᛋᛋᛅᛯ'
22:35:09 <HackEgo> bash: $'\341\233\205\341\233\213. \341\232\264\341\232\256\341\232\246 \341\232\240\341\233\205\341\232\264\341\233\201. \341\233\206\341\233\246\341\232\277\341\233\205 \341\233\213\341\233\206\341\232\264\341\232\277\341\232\242\341\233\213\341\233\213\341\233\205\341\233\257': command not found
22:35:15 <b_jonas> ``` >> wisdom/ᛁᚿ echo 'ᛅᛋ. ᚴᚮᚦ ᚠᛅᚴᛁ. ᛆᛦᚿᛅ ᛋᛆᚴᚿᚢᛋᛋᛅᛯ'
22:35:24 <HackEgo> ᛁᚿ ᛋᚿᛅᚠᚠᛚᛚᛋ ᛁᚮᚴᚢᛚᛁᛋ ᚴᛦᛆᛏᛅᛦᛅᛘ ᚴᛅᛘ ᚦᛅᛚᛁᛒᛆᛏ ᚢᛘᛒᛦᛆ ᛋᚴᛆᛦᛏᛆᛦᛁᛋ ᛁᚢᛚᛁᛁ ᛁᚿᛏᛦᛆ ᚴᛆᛚᛅᚿᚦᛆᛋ ᚦᛅᛋᚴᛅᚿᚦᛅ, ᛆᚢᚦᛆᛋ ᚢᛁᛆᛏᚮᛦ, ᛏᛅ ᛏᛅᛦᛦᛅᛋᛏᛦᛅ ᚴᛅᚿᛏᛦᚢᛘ ᛆᛏᛏᛁᚿg
22:35:30 <b_jonas> is it too long for an irk line?
22:35:52 <b_jonas> ``` sed 's/^.{300}// wisdom/ᛁᚿ
22:35:53 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
22:35:55 <int-e> shachaf: Perhaps if you change the problem to getting out with at least 99.99% certainty... so the real problem becomes statistically establishing how many prisoners there are in total... of course that's totally different in flavor from the original.
22:35:58 <b_jonas> ``` sed 's/^.{300}//' wisdom/ᛁᚿ
22:35:59 <HackEgo> ᛁᚿ ᛋᚿᛅᚠᚠᛚᛚᛋ ᛁᚮᚴᚢᛚᛁᛋ ᚴᛦᛆᛏᛅᛦᛅᛘ ᚴᛅᛘ ᚦᛅᛚᛁᛒᛆᛏ ᚢᛘᛒᛦᛆ ᛋᚴᛆᛦᛏᛆᛦᛁᛋ ᛁᚢᛚᛁᛁ ᛁᚿᛏᛦᛆ ᚴᛆᛚᛅᚿᚦᛆᛋ ᚦᛅᛋᚴᛅᚿᚦᛅ, ᛆᚢᚦᛆᛋ ᚢᛁᛆᛏᚮᛦ, ᛏᛅ ᛏᛅᛦᛦᛅᛋᛏᛦᛅ ᚴᛅᚿᛏᛦᚢᛘ ᛆᛏᛏᛁᚿg
22:36:13 <b_jonas> ``` sed 's/^.{200}//' wisdom/ᛁᚿ
22:36:14 <fizzie> b_jonas: It's probably too long for a HackEgo line, maybe also for an IRC line as well.
22:36:15 <HackEgo> ᛁᚿ ᛋᚿᛅᚠᚠᛚᛚᛋ ᛁᚮᚴᚢᛚᛁᛋ ᚴᛦᛆᛏᛅᛦᛅᛘ ᚴᛅᛘ ᚦᛅᛚᛁᛒᛆᛏ ᚢᛘᛒᛦᛆ ᛋᚴᛆᛦᛏᛆᛦᛁᛋ ᛁᚢᛚᛁᛁ ᛁᚿᛏᛦᛆ ᚴᛆᛚᛅᚿᚦᛆᛋ ᚦᛅᛋᚴᛅᚿᚦᛅ, ᛆᚢᚦᛆᛋ ᚢᛁᛆᛏᚮᛦ, ᛏᛅ ᛏᛅᛦᛦᛅᛋᛏᛦᛅ ᚴᛅᚿᛏᛦᚢᛘ ᛆᛏᛏᛁᚿg
22:36:29 <b_jonas> ``` sed 's/^.{200,210}//' wisdom/ᛁᚿ
22:36:30 <HackEgo> ᛁᚿ ᛋᚿᛅᚠᚠᛚᛚᛋ ᛁᚮᚴᚢᛚᛁᛋ ᚴᛦᛆᛏᛅᛦᛅᛘ ᚴᛅᛘ ᚦᛅᛚᛁᛒᛆᛏ ᚢᛘᛒᛦᛆ ᛋᚴᛆᛦᛏᛆᛦᛁᛋ ᛁᚢᛚᛁᛁ ᛁᚿᛏᛦᛆ ᚴᛆᛚᛅᚿᚦᛆᛋ ᚦᛅᛋᚴᛅᚿᚦᛅ, ᛆᚢᚦᛆᛋ ᚢᛁᛆᛏᚮᛦ, ᛏᛅ ᛏᛅᛦᛦᛅᛋᛏᛦᛅ ᚴᛅᚿᛏᛦᚢᛘ ᛆᛏᛏᛁᚿg
22:36:39 <fizzie> From this perspective, your original comment ended in "--gᛅᛋ. ᚴᚮᚦ ᚠᛅᚴᛁ. ᛆᛦᚿᛅ ᛋᛆᚴᚿᚢᛋᛋᛅᛯ"
22:36:46 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, that looks fine
22:37:02 <b_jonas> ``` sed 's/^.\{300\}//' wisdom/ᛁᚿ
22:37:03 <HackEgo> âá¦á
á´á
á¿áá¦á¢á ááááá¿gá
á. á´á®á¦ á á
á´á. áá¦á¿á
ááá´á¿á¢ááá
ᯠ\ á
á. á´á®á¦ á á
á´á. áá¦á¿á
ááá´á¿á¢ááá
á¯
22:37:38 <int-e> can you use `fetch?
22:37:46 <b_jonas> ``` echo 'ᛁᚿ ᛋᚿᛅᚠᚠᛚᛚᛋ ᛁᚮᚴᚢᛚᛁᛋ ᚴᛦᛆᛏᛅᛦᛅᛘ ᚴᛅᛘ ᚦᛅᛚᛁᛒᛆᛏ ᚢᛘᛒᛦᛆ ᛋᚴᛆᛦᛏᛆᛦᛁᛋ ᛁᚢᛚᛁᛁ ᛁᚿᛏᛦᛆ ᚴᛆᛚᛅᚿᚦᛆᛋ ' > wisdom/ᛁᚿ
22:37:57 <fizzie> I'm guessing it was just fine after the original learn, just truncated on output.
22:38:00 <b_jonas> ``` echo 'ᚦᛅᛋᚴᛅᚿᚦᛅ, ᛆᚢᚦᛆᛋ ᚢᛁᛆᛏᚮᛦ, ᛏᛅ ᛏᛅᛦᛦᛅᛋᛏᛦᛅ ᚴᛅᚿᛏᛦᚢᛘ ᛆᛏᛏᛁᚿgᛅᛋ. ᚴᚮᚦ ᚠᛅᚴᛁ. ᛆᛦᚿᛅ ᛋᛆᚴᚿᚢᛋᛋᛅᛯ ' >> wisdom/ᛁᚿ
22:38:13 <HackEgo> ᛁᚿ ᛋᚿᛅᚠᚠᛚᛚᛋ ᛁᚮᚴᚢᛚᛁᛋ ᚴᛦᛆᛏᛅᛦᛅᛘ ᚴᛅᛘ ᚦᛅᛚᛁᛒᛆᛏ ᚢᛘᛒᛦᛆ ᛋᚴᛆᛦᛏᛆᛦᛁᛋ ᛁᚢᛚᛁᛁ ᛁᚿᛏᛦᛆ ᚴᛆᛚᛅᚿᚦᛆᛋ \ ᚦᛅᛋᚴᛅᚿᚦᛅ, ᛆᚢᚦᛆᛋ ᚢᛁᛆᛏᚮᛦ, ᛏᛅ ᛏᛅᛦᛦᛅᛋᛏᛦᛅ ᚴᛅᚿᛏᛦᚢᛘ ᛆᛏᛏᛁ
22:38:28 <b_jonas> ``` sed 's/^.\{250\}//' wisdom/ᛁᚿ
22:38:30 <HackEgo> ᛁᚿ ᛋᚿᛅᚠᚠᛚᛚᛋ ᛁᚮᚴᚢᛚᛁᛋ ᚴᛦᛆᛏᛅᛦᛅᛘ ᚴᛅᛘ ᚦᛅᛚᛁᛒᛆᛏ ᚢᛘᛒᛦᛆ ᛋᚴᛆᛦᛏᛆᛦᛁᛋ ᛁᚢᛚᛁᛁ ᛁᚿᛏᛦᛆ ᚴᛆᛚᛅᚿᚦᛆᛋ \ ᚦᛅᛋᚴᛅᚿᚦᛅ, ᛆᚢᚦᛆᛋ ᚢᛁᛆᛏᚮᛦ, ᛏᛅ ᛏᛅᛦᛦᛅᛋᛏᛦᛅ ᚴᛅᚿᛏᛦᚢᛘ ᛆᛏᛏᛁ
22:38:46 <b_jonas> ``` sed 's/^.\{250,255\}//' wisdom/ᛁᚿ
22:38:47 <HackEgo> ᛁᚿ ᛋᚿᛅᚠᚠᛚᛚᛋ ᛁᚮᚴᚢᛚᛁᛋ ᚴᛦᛆᛏᛅᛦᛅᛘ ᚴᛅᛘ ᚦᛅᛚᛁᛒᛆᛏ ᚢᛘᛒᛦᛆ ᛋᚴᛆᛦᛏᛆᛦᛁᛋ ᛁᚢᛚᛁᛁ ᛁᚿᛏᛦᛆ ᚴᛆᛚᛅᚿᚦᛆᛋ \ ᚦᛅᛋᚴᛅᚿᚦᛅ, ᛆᚢᚦᛆᛋ ᚢᛁᛆᛏᚮᛦ, ᛏᛅ ᛏᛅᛦᛦᛅᛋᛏᛦᛅ ᚴᛅᚿᛏᛦᚢᛘ ᛆᛏᛏᛁ
22:39:18 <fizzie> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/5bc430607e2b was the initial `learn.
22:39:25 <fizzie> It looks to me to contain everything you said.
22:39:36 <b_jonas> ``` perl -e '$_=<STDIN>; print $_' < wisdom/ᛁᚿ
22:39:38 <HackEgo> ᛁᚿ ᛋᚿᛅᚠᚠᛚᛚᛋ ᛁᚮᚴᚢᛚᛁᛋ ᚴᛦᛆᛏᛅᛦᛅᛘ ᚴᛅᛘ ᚦᛅᛚᛁᛒᛆᛏ ᚢᛘᛒᛦᛆ ᛋᚴᛆᛦᛏᛆᛦᛁᛋ ᛁᚢᛚᛁᛁ ᛁᚿᛏᛦᛆ ᚴᛆᛚᛅᚿᚦᛆᛋ
22:39:45 <b_jonas> ``` perl -e '$_=<STDIN>; print substr $_,200' < wisdom/ᛁᚿ
22:39:53 <b_jonas> ``` perl -e '$_=<STDIN>; print substr $_,201' < wisdom/ᛁᚿ
22:39:58 <b_jonas> ``` perl -e '$_=<STDIN>; print substr $_,202' < wisdom/ᛁᚿ
22:40:16 <HackEgo> \ This is perl 5, version 14, subversion 2 (v5.14.2) built for x86_64-linux-gnu-thread-multi \ (with 88 registered patches, see perl -V for more detail) \ \ Copyright 1987-2011, Larry Wall \ \ Perl may be copied only under the terms of either the Artistic License or the \ GNU General Public License, which may be found in the Perl 5 source kit
22:41:33 <b_jonas> I'd like to know if the two different looking runes used for c/k are different characters, whether ᛯ is the right encoding for the mm, what the encodings are for the g rune, the comma and the dot (those might not be runes actually), whether the strange shape for the a in the "attinges" is significant,
22:41:50 <b_jonas> and how to encode the d rune for which I used ᚦ here
22:42:12 <b_jonas> Someone who knows their futhark please help.
22:42:29 <HackEgo> ᛁᚿ ᛋᚿᛅᚠᚠᛚᛚᛋ ᛁᚮᚴᚢᛚᛁᛋ ᚴᛦᛆᛏᛅᛦᛅᛘ ᚴᛅᛘ ᚦᛅᛚᛁᛒᛆᛏ ᚢᛘᛒᛦᛆ ᛋᚴᛆᛦᛏᛆᛦᛁᛋ ᛁᚢᛚᛁᛁ ᛁᚿᛏᛦᛆ ᚴᛆᛚᛅᚿᚦᛆᛋ \ ᚦᛅᛋᚴᛅᚿᚦᛅ, ᛆᚢᚦᛆᛋ ᚢᛁᛆᛏᚮᛦ, ᛏᛅ ᛏᛅᛦᛦᛅᛋᛏᛦᛅ ᚴᛅᚿᛏᛦᚢᛘ ᛆᛏᛏᛁ
22:42:59 <shachaf> b_jonas: I think you might be spamming the channel a bit.
22:43:14 <shachaf> Why do you want this wisdom entry in the first place?
22:43:16 <b_jonas> shachaf: yeah, I know, but if I try to learn outside the channel then you get annoyed for that
22:43:26 <b_jonas> shachaf: it's a nice inscription, and sounds wise
22:44:45 <b_jonas> but I'll try verifying the entry in private
22:47:19 <b_jonas> ``` >wisdom/ᛁᚿ echo 'ᛁᚿ ᛋᚿᛅᚠᚠᛚᛚᛋ ᛁᚮᚴᚢᛚᛁᛋ ᚴᛦᛆᛏᛅᛦᛅᛘ ᚴᛅᛘ ᚦᛅᛚᛁᛒᛆᛏ ᚢᛘᛒᛦᛆ ᛋᚴᛆᛦᛏᛆᛦᛁᛋ ᛁᚢᛚᛁᛁ ᛁᚿᛏᛦᛆ ᚴᛆᛚᛅᚿᚦᛆᛋ '
22:47:33 <b_jonas> ``` >>wisdom/ᛁᚿ echo 'ᚦᛅᛋᚴᛅᚿᚦᛅ, ᛆᚢᚦᛆᛋ ᚢᛁᛆᛏᚮᛦ, ᛏᛅ ᛏᛅᛦᛦᛅᛋᛏᛦᛅ ᚴᛅᚿᛏᛦᚢᛘ ᛆᛏᛏᛁᚿgᛅᛋ. ᚴᚮᚦ ᚠᛅᚴᛁ. ᛆᛦᚿᛅ ᛋᛆᚴᚿᚢᛋᛋᛅᛯ '
22:47:44 <b_jonas> ``` perl -e 'local$/;$t=<STDIN>;print $t' < wisdom/ᛁᚿ
22:47:45 <HackEgo> ᛁᚿ ᛋᚿᛅᚠᚠᛚᛚᛋ ᛁᚮᚴᚢᛚᛁᛋ ᚴᛦᛆᛏᛅᛦᛅᛘ ᚴᛅᛘ ᚦᛅᛚᛁᛒᛆᛏ ᚢᛘᛒᛦᛆ ᛋᚴᛆᛦᛏᛆᛦᛁᛋ ᛁᚢᛚᛁᛁ ᛁᚿᛏᛦᛆ ᚴᛆᛚᛅᚿᚦᛆᛋ \ ᚦᛅᛋᚴᛅᚿᚦᛅ, ᛆᚢᚦᛆᛋ ᚢᛁᛆᛏᚮᛦ, ᛏᛅ ᛏᛅᛦᛦᛅᛋᛏᛦᛅ ᚴᛅᚿᛏᛦᚢᛘ ᛆᛏᛏᛁ
22:47:48 <b_jonas> ``` perl -e 'local$/;$t=<STDIN>;print substr$t,300' < wisdom/ᛁᚿ
22:47:49 <HackEgo> ᛏᛦᛅ ᚴᛅᚿᛏᛦᚢᛘ ᛆᛏᛏᛁᚿgᛅᛋ. ᚴᚮᚦ ᚠᛅᚴᛁ. ᛆᛦᚿᛅ ᛋᛆᚴᚿᚢᛋᛋᛅᛯ
22:47:57 <b_jonas> ``` >wisdom/ᛁᚿ echo -n 'ᛁᚿ ᛋᚿᛅᚠᚠᛚᛚᛋ ᛁᚮᚴᚢᛚᛁᛋ ᚴᛦᛆᛏᛅᛦᛅᛘ ᚴᛅᛘ ᚦᛅᛚᛁᛒᛆᛏ ᚢᛘᛒᛦᛆ ᛋᚴᛆᛦᛏᛆᛦᛁᛋ ᛁᚢᛚᛁᛁ ᛁᚿᛏᛦᛆ ᚴᛆᛚᛅᚿᚦᛆᛋ '
22:48:04 <b_jonas> ``` >>wisdom/ᛁᚿ echo -n 'ᚦᛅᛋᚴᛅᚿᚦᛅ, ᛆᚢᚦᛆᛋ ᚢᛁᛆᛏᚮᛦ, ᛏᛅ ᛏᛅᛦᛦᛅᛋᛏᛦᛅ ᚴᛅᚿᛏᛦᚢᛘ ᛆᛏᛏᛁᚿgᛅᛋ. ᚴᚮᚦ ᚠᛅᚴᛁ. ᛆᛦᚿᛅ ᛋᛆᚴᚿᚢᛋᛋᛅᛯ '
22:48:09 <b_jonas> ``` perl -e 'local$/;$t=<STDIN>;print $t' < wisdom/ᛁᚿ
22:48:11 <HackEgo> ᛁᚿ ᛋᚿᛅᚠᚠᛚᛚᛋ ᛁᚮᚴᚢᛚᛁᛋ ᚴᛦᛆᛏᛅᛦᛅᛘ ᚴᛅᛘ ᚦᛅᛚᛁᛒᛆᛏ ᚢᛘᛒᛦᛆ ᛋᚴᛆᛦᛏᛆᛦᛁᛋ ᛁᚢᛚᛁᛁ ᛁᚿᛏᛦᛆ ᚴᛆᛚᛅᚿᚦᛆᛋ ᚦᛅᛋᚴᛅᚿᚦᛅ, ᛆᚢᚦᛆᛋ ᚢᛁᛆᛏᚮᛦ, ᛏᛅ ᛏᛅᛦᛦᛅᛋᛏᛦᛅ ᚴᛅᚿᛏᛦᚢᛘ ᛆᛏᛏᛁᚿg
22:48:13 <b_jonas> ``` perl -e 'local$/;$t=<STDIN>;print substr$t,300' < wisdom/ᛁᚿ
22:48:15 <HackEgo> âá¦á
á´á
á¿áá¦á¢á ááááá¿gá
á. á´á®á¦ á á
á´á. áá¦á¿á
ááá´á¿á¢ááá
á¯
22:48:21 <HackEgo> ᛁᚿ ᛋᚿᛅᚠᚠᛚᛚᛋ ᛁᚮᚴᚢᛚᛁᛋ ᚴᛦᛆᛏᛅᛦᛅᛘ ᚴᛅᛘ ᚦᛅᛚᛁᛒᛆᛏ ᚢᛘᛒᛦᛆ ᛋᚴᛆᛦᛏᛆᛦᛁᛋ ᛁᚢᛚᛁᛁ ᛁᚿᛏᛦᛆ ᚴᛆᛚᛅᚿᚦᛆᛋ ᚦᛅᛋᚴᛅᚿᚦᛅ, ᛆᚢᚦᛆᛋ ᚢᛁᛆᛏᚮᛦ, ᛏᛅ ᛏᛅᛦᛦᛅᛋᛏᛦᛅ ᚴᛅᚿᛏᛦᚢᛘ ᛆᛏᛏᛁᚿg
23:03:27 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: it's the secret message from the Jules Verne novel, and I'm asking esochannel for help with the unicode encoding and stuff
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23:39:31 <rntz> int-e: oh wow, that was fast.
23:40:21 <rntz> int-e: hm, looks like my best solution so far averages about 16k steps to free the prisoners
23:41:33 <int-e> neat. do you allow the prisoners to add their own randomness to the process?
23:41:43 <rntz> ... add their own randomness?
23:41:51 <rntz> the prisoners actions are entirely deterministic
23:42:10 <int-e> (it shouldn't make a huge difference anyway)
23:42:12 <rntz> do you use a randomized strategy? that would be interesting
23:42:29 <int-e> no, it's deterministic so far.
23:43:30 <int-e> (the reason that it won't make a huge difference is that the light bulb serves as a random input anyway, in the beginning)
23:43:54 <rntz> hm? I'm not quite understanding you. the light bulb always starts off
23:44:12 <int-e> not from the perspective of an individual prisoner
23:44:14 <rntz> are you suggesting the prisoners can imitate a randomized strategy using a prng seeded from the state of the light they see?
23:45:29 <int-e> I'm not really doing that either...
23:46:05 <rntz> well, wanna trade solutions?
23:46:21 <int-e> no, but you can see mine if you like
23:46:57 <rntz> ah, you don't like spoilers :P
23:47:34 <rntz> sure, go ahead and explain yours (or link code, I suppose)
23:48:58 <int-e> oh... found another knob to tweak.. that helped a lot.
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23:51:03 <rntz> how far below?
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23:56:02 <int-e> rntz: sorry, experimenting. 15400ish
23:57:00 <rntz> hm. interesting! I am around 15690 (average of 500 runs with 100 prisoners)
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23:57:08 <rntz> those are... suspiciously close, but could be coincidence
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00:09:02 <int-e> I'm trying to get to 2^20 trials, then pick those parameters and paste :)
00:09:35 <shachaf> How much state do your prisoners have?
00:10:59 <int-e> one is unbounded, but it shouldn't hurt much if it gets truncated at some constant multiple of N anyway.
00:14:22 <rntz> two counters? interesting
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00:16:23 <int-e> and we have a winner, http://sprunge.us/JgAh
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00:18:27 <int-e> (there's further room for tweaking but it'll become messy)
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00:21:45 <rntz> what is the purpose of `dark'?
00:22:11 <int-e> it started out as a counter that counted how often the room was dark since the last light...
00:22:58 <int-e> it's still related to that, but basically it acts as a weight that determines how much the prisoner acts as a count.
00:23:14 <int-e> I have no good intuition for how this works!
00:23:17 <rntz> do you have a proof that this never gets stuck?
00:23:32 <rntz> (given that it completed 1048576 runs w/o getting stuck, it seems like it must be very unlikely)
00:24:05 <int-e> as long as the light bulb is off, all 'dark' counters increase, so eventually one of the tokens > 1+dark tests must fail.
00:24:15 <int-e> so tokens keep moving and it'll terminate with probability 1.
00:24:50 <int-e> handwaving, but that's one aspect I do understand well enough to be confident about it
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00:26:58 <rntz> I don't do your dark-tracking-to-determine-whether-I-count stuff; we share two optimizations; and I have one optimization you don't
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00:27:12 <int-e> actually there's a second aspect to it that's more subtle: as long as all dark counters are big, the same token will be passed on and on until one of the counters becomes small enough to be kept.
00:28:08 <int-e> so not all counters can become large.
00:29:30 <rntz> oh, hm, oh, I totally misunderstood your strategy
00:29:48 <rntz> so depending on your dark-counter you either give try to tokens away or to accept them?
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00:31:32 <rntz> hm. how do you know this can't somehow endlessly slosh back and forth between two prisoners?
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00:32:22 <rntz> hm, I suppose the randomness of the warden prevents that
00:32:28 <int-e> oh it definitely can do that. but it's also possible that some prisoner will never be called to the room
00:32:49 <int-e> so I thought probability 1 assuming a random warden is good enough.
00:32:49 <rntz> yeah, it's an unavoidable problem :P
00:33:01 <rntz> probability 1 assuming random warden was my intended interpretation
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00:48:26 <int-e> right, there's another thing... good for shaving off about 600 rounds
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00:58:45 <int-e> rntz: so final version for tonight: http://sprunge.us/OWPH
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01:07:01 <rntz> int-e: aha, you found my optimization, I think
01:07:10 <rntz> (the dropped/accepting code)
01:07:52 <int-e> or, perhaps, remembered...
01:08:10 <shachaf> int-e: Did you publish a paper about this or something?
01:08:35 <shachaf> You're referenced in https://www.math.washington.edu/~morrow/336_11/papers/yisong.pdf
01:10:00 <int-e> It's not a paper; the reference is from the Dehaye/Ford/Segerman paper, "Newsgroup rec.puzzles, available through http://groups.google.com, July 2002"
01:11:11 <shachaf> I suppose it's https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.puzzles/zkzEEfzqtis/w3pR8g1TJmEJ
01:11:47 <FireFly> Huh. That sounds like an interesting problem
01:12:13 <int-e> rntz: anyway I'm fairly happy now... it's getting quite close to the 10418 number that you get by assigning a dedicated count.
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01:13:10 <int-e> rntz: also I'm interested in your strategy now
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01:17:02 <int-e> shachaf: that looks right
01:17:38 <zzo38> What is wrong with it?
01:18:35 <olsner> <ais523> I like 1040 ← yes, it is very truthy
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01:21:55 <shachaf> olsner: the deadline for 1040 was apr 15 hth
01:24:02 <int-e> oh well, why shouldn't we all know about US tax forms...
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02:20:26 <oerjan> <copumpkin> you were way ahead of your time <-- if it's the story i think, this is quite appropriate hth
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02:22:03 <shachaf> oerjan: are you thinking of _Story of Your Life_
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02:22:44 <shachaf> looks like someone wibble-wobbled a little too much
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02:24:08 <oerjan> shachaf: i was assuming that one story would be included in the book.
02:35:17 <shachaf> oerjan: Have you read his other stories?
02:57:45 <shachaf> oerjan: well maybe i should send you a copy of the book instead hth
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03:04:16 <shachaf> copumpkin: Oh, "Soon to be a major motion picture". That's why there's a new edition.
03:04:48 <shachaf> copumpkin: so you'd better hurry up and read it if you want to stay ahead of the hipster curve hth
03:15:48 <shachaf> _Stories of Your Life and Others_ by Ted Chiang
03:19:11 * oerjan hits shachaf with the saucepan ===\__/
03:19:32 <shachaf> too bad you use your saucepan for hitting rather than for sauce
03:22:07 <shachaf> You know, I always figured the saucepan was a skillet.
03:22:15 <shachaf> But I guess it's actually a saucepan.
03:22:43 <shachaf> I guess I thought that because of your skill at hitting people with it.
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03:49:34 <zzo38> Hello, somehow there seem to be problem with this internet today and restarting the router fixed it, hopefully it is OK by now.
03:50:05 <zzo38> The ping timeout did display on my computer though before it stopped; I did not get a connection error.
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05:34:52 <zzo38> I am looking at the EM computer architecture it looks good so far
05:38:36 <zzo38> I don't know what the letters stand for.
05:39:23 <zzo38> It is described in a report titled "DESCRIPTION OF A MACHINE ARCHITECTURE FOR USE WITH BLOCK STRUCTURED LANGUAGES".
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05:49:08 <zzo38> It is a virtual machine code and does not require any particular floating point representation.
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06:18:27 <oerjan> (apparently making up finnish-sounding words works retroactively, who knew)
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07:57:45 <HackEgo> Confound \ 1U \ Instant \ Counter target spell that targets one or more creatures. \ Draw a card. \ PS-C
07:57:45 <HackEgo> Intervene \ U \ Instant \ Counter target spell that targets a creature. \ UL-C
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09:19:24 <int-e> hah, I missed a key optimization yesterday... now I get fewer than 11200 rounds for the prisoners.
09:19:59 <int-e> (bragging was urgent... details later :-P)
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10:42:14 <int-e> rntz, shachaf: http://sprunge.us/UETC ... I also added comments.
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11:14:50 <rntz> ah, if somebody's already been to the room, you can become a donor
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12:14:13 <boily> Tanelle. how many exams today?
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12:19:11 <boily> `relcome xkapastel
12:19:29 <HackEgo> xkapastel: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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14:42:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: in M:tG, do you happen to know why Intervene and Confound are templated differently? As far as I can tell, the first abilities are functionally identical and there's no reason for them to have different wording.
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14:59:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: xkcdwhatiflist: not found
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15:32:31 <ybden> `? magic: the gathering
15:32:33 <HackEgo> magic: the gathering? ¯\(°_o)/¯
15:32:43 <ybden> Is this bot case-sensitive?
15:36:24 <fizzie> I don't think bin/? is.
15:37:20 <HackEgo> The magic was in you all along.
15:37:23 <fizzie> Looks case-insensitive to me.
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16:57:07 <lambda-11235> I must realy like brainfuck, as I've written at least 3 compilers and 2 interpreters for it over 5 different PLs.
16:57:49 <gamemanj> brainfuck is like othello: it's simple to compile it, but to master compiling it is difficult...
16:59:18 <izabera> but can you actually write programs in it?
17:04:53 <lambda-11235> izabera: Someone wrote a compiler in it, so it's possible. https://github.com/matslina/awib
17:10:58 <lambda-11235> izabera: Depends on how complicated the program is.
17:11:36 <izabera> a program that doubles a number i entered in base 10
17:15:34 <lambda-11235> izabera: Only if I add a compiler extension, but then it wouldn't follow the standard.
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17:17:53 <gamemanj> just pipe the output of the program to /dev/coffeemachine
17:18:40 <lambda-11235> gamemanj: But then you'd be programming in some derivative of sh.
17:19:13 <gamemanj> Well, sh would simply connect the programs together. Pipes themselves are language-independant
17:19:44 <gamemanj> so all sh would be doing is initializing the environment
17:20:00 <gamemanj> and if initializing the environment counts,
17:20:10 <gamemanj> then as the console is also given to the program by sh...
17:20:53 <gamemanj> In which case the environment is "initialized" by... the linux kernel.
17:21:33 <gamemanj> Or the OpenBSD kernel, or the FreeBSD kernel, or... you get the point.
17:22:11 <gamemanj> You can't even win with bare-metal assembly - the environment is initialized by the processor and/or BIOS.
17:22:50 <gamemanj> FPGAs? The programmer & circuit board. A bunch of transistors? The arrangement counts as an initialized environment...
17:23:31 <gamemanj> lambda-11235: What you're programming in is relative.
17:29:36 <lambda-11235> gamemanj: Unfortunately I don't have /dev/coffee installed, or a coffee machine for that matter.
17:30:30 <gamemanj> In which case, the nature of pipes means you can simply swap out /dev/coffee for the NetHack /dev/coffee Implementation Patch.
17:30:43 <gamemanj> (Built using CUSE, of course.)
17:34:35 <lambda-11235> Hmm, I wonder how serious github is about letting me have an unlimited number of repos.
17:43:45 <shachaf> oerjan: The magic was in you all along?
17:46:26 <gamemanj> b_jonas: nice work on the zzo38 computer spec, BTW :)
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18:58:43 <zzo38> b_jonas: It looks like identical to me too and I don't know. Possibly due to historical reasons and the text hasn't been updated because it does not need to be.
18:59:16 <gamemanj> how is it I keep only hearing half of conversations?
19:05:21 <zzo38> gamemanj: Possibly the messages are far apart and you did not read it
19:05:33 <zzo38> (It happens to me too of course)
19:06:26 <gamemanj> (I checked logs during my a-few-minutes downtime
19:07:02 <gamemanj> Since 15:42:07, there have been 0 messages from b_jonas... so I should probably read more logs.
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19:43:55 <int-e> rntz: huh, the "5 is experimentally best" claim is wrong... it's 6 that gives the average quoted at the top... must have mised up my experiments.
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22:41:35 <HackEgo> The U are a very mad people.
22:41:43 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/u
22:41:52 <HackEgo> oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf nitia
22:42:04 <HackEgo> changeset: 0:e037173e0012 \ user: HackBot \ date: Thu Feb 16 19:42:32 2012 +0000 \ summary: Initial import.
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22:44:43 <moon_> I had the idea of making a esolang where the only form of data manipulation is by 'folding' and 'unfolding' the data tape to increment and decrement values
22:45:29 <moon_> each fold goes along the tape until it reaches a 'seam' which it stops at
22:45:49 <moon_> The direction of a fold depends on the direction of the instruction pointer
22:46:00 <moon_> which can be either left or right
22:46:32 <int-e> Origami Tape, hmm.
22:47:37 <moon_> im thinking about adding velocitys (and overshooting the seam) to the mix
22:47:41 <moon_> but i dont think i should
22:47:49 -!- spiette has quit (Quit: :qa!).
22:49:59 <moon_> what do you think int-e?
22:52:09 <int-e> that question is too philosophical for me right now.
22:52:38 <moon_> name is simple too :P 'fold'
22:53:29 <moon_> actually, even better: make it 3d
22:54:03 <moon_> Actually, ill stick to 1d for ease of implentation, i might try 2d later
23:15:18 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
23:15:34 <moon_> the wiki wont let me publish
23:15:53 <moon_> can somene publish this for me? http://pastebin.com/zsknMxvN
23:18:48 <moon_> can you publish that for me?
23:20:24 <moon_> yea, the wiki is refusing to publish
23:20:44 <fizzie> Could you unpack that a little.
23:20:58 <fizzie> As in, what is it doing instead.
23:21:03 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:21:36 <moon_> showing me the preview, and i am a hundred precent certain i have hit the publish button and not the preview one, for 20 times in a row now
23:21:55 <fizzie> Does it have any sort of an error message anywhere on the page?
23:23:56 <moon_> apparently my cookies are off and i never, ever turn them off
23:24:01 <moon_> something is up here
23:24:36 <fizzie> It did say that to me as well.
23:24:55 <fizzie> I vaguely recall it doing something similar before. Possibly something to do with the session storage.
23:25:36 <moon_> anyways.. i came up with the idea for a language that uses 'folds' in the tape to represent data
23:25:46 <fizzie> memcached has been killed by the OOM killer.
23:26:03 <fizzie> total used free shared buffers cached
23:26:03 <fizzie> Mem: 2010 1910 99 43 29 120
23:26:26 <moon_> and we dont have gregor to fix it, he owns the wiki, right
23:26:48 <fizzie> I mean, it's his machine, I do have administrative rights on it.
23:27:05 <moon_> So you can fix it? maybe?
23:27:17 <fizzie> I wonder if it's all those python zombies HackEgo keeps making up these days.
23:27:46 <moon_> you should write a python antizombie *jokes yet not jokes*
23:28:13 <moon_> wait.. python zombies?
23:28:28 <moon_> that means i might be able to access the external system using something like that..
23:30:17 <moon_> the site stopped rendering right on my end
23:30:25 <fizzie> I restarted a couple of things.
23:30:51 <fizzie> Logging in works for me now.
23:31:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fold]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=47059 * Moon * (+969) Created
23:33:11 <moon_> also, because you have admin rights, dont you have access to hackego?
23:33:22 <moon_> *noting you could install GHC for hackego again*
23:34:37 <fizzie> Technically, but I try to avoid touching it as much as I can, since it's not really mine.
23:35:40 <fizzie> The zombie thing is strange, I used to think it was recent, but looking at it, it doesn't look like multibot ever waited for its children (or daemonized either).
23:36:14 <moon_> i could cause out of sync processes that way
23:36:26 <fizzie> That doesn't really follow.
23:36:47 <fizzie> I mean, sure, it could be a denial-of-service-ish thing, clogging up the process table.
23:37:05 <moon_> Arn't the processes being ran?
23:37:29 <fizzie> A zombie is a process that's died but its corpse just hasn't been collected by the parent.
23:38:07 <moon_> Well would it be possible to make a process that lives beyond the time of the main one?
23:38:42 <moon_> Does hackego collect threads?
23:40:12 <int-e> it collects the whole kernel
23:40:35 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
23:40:36 <fizzie> There's a lot of sandboxing and timeouting in the actual HackEgo stuff, and as far as I know they work pretty reliably, always terminating in a reasonable time. It's just that, AFAICT, the multibot core doesn't clean up the trash.
23:40:48 <fizzie> (Or dissassociate itself from it.)
23:41:31 <moon_> Int-e wouldnt it be nice if hackego had GHC?
23:41:33 <fizzie> Of course that's the part written in C, so I'm even less inclined to start patching it. Since I have no idea whether the binary running there is actually from the public source or not.
23:42:07 <moon_> Its not, as far as i know, i have not seen the core in the bitbucket repository
23:42:19 <fizzie> Oh, that's there -- it's just a different repo.
23:42:23 <fizzie> https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/multibot/src
23:42:49 <moon_> I'd happily help patch it then :P
23:42:52 <fizzie> I just don't know if the version HackEgo's running has been customized.
23:44:21 <moon_> Oh wait, i dont run linux
23:45:29 <moon_> the cmd execution of the multibot inthe bitbucket lacks sandboxing
23:45:50 <fizzie> No, that's yet another repository.
23:46:08 <moon_> No, it doesnt use the umlbox command for executing commands
23:46:32 <moon_> it just 'exec' s it
23:46:39 <fizzie> Yes, because it's not *multibot* that does it.
23:46:56 <fizzie> That's done by the *hackbot* code.
23:46:57 <int-e> fizzie: you may want http://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
23:47:16 <int-e> hmm, wait, that's also the wrong one...
23:47:39 <fizzie> https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot
23:47:43 <int-e> yeah, https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot
23:48:07 <shachaf> What do you think of the "everything in one repository" approach?
23:49:10 <fizzie> It scales up to a Google.
23:49:32 <int-e> define "one repository
23:50:23 <shachaf> As in one hg or Perforce or whatever repository.
23:50:44 <moon_> Im thinking about writing a basic text editor for hackego
23:51:19 <shachaf> Is there a way to keep state between lines of HackEgo without committing to hg?
23:52:08 <int-e> I may have picked too broad a context for "everything".
23:52:25 <shachaf> I mean all your code and so on.
23:52:28 <fizzie> shachaf: Not that I know of.
23:52:46 <int-e> Well I don't want to have a tangled mess of all my projects.
23:52:59 <shachaf> Well, you put each one in its own directory. So it's not a mess.
23:53:12 <int-e> Then I can have a repository for each.
23:53:43 <moon_> fizzie, what should i set the max file size input to? (aka how much memory it devotes to the file)
23:54:25 <izabera> what if you need something that scales up to two googles
23:54:37 <moon_> I dont think hackego has that much ram
23:54:58 <int-e> (There is a limitation of the RCSs that I'm aware of... they don't offer nice views ala "what's the history of this subdirectory")
23:55:17 <int-e> "clone this subdirectory" "merge from the previously cloned subdirectory"
23:55:25 <fizzie> moon_: I think you shouldn't try to do the thing at all. You can't run anything persistently, so your editor would need to write all state to file (and make a commit) for every operation.
23:55:41 <moon_> no, it is more of a file operator
23:55:47 <int-e> it's far easier to use something like submodules to compose a view of a larger project from smaller parts, right now.
23:55:53 <moon_> it takes a command, and preforms it
23:56:25 <int-e> So as things stand, I don't think I want to use anything resembling a "repository for everything."
23:58:42 <fizzie> Even so, I think we generally would like to discourage interactive editing on the bot, since it involves so much history.
23:59:01 <fizzie> (sed already exists, anyway.)
23:59:34 <moon_> i feel like doing it, plus it will test my shellscripting, ill do it offscreen
23:59:49 <int-e> and regarding the ghc question... I've not seriously missed it.
00:00:19 <\oren\> Does anyone know a good tutorial on ptolemaic physics?
00:01:19 <fizzie> Doing it off-channel doesn't really solve the problem of bloating the history.
00:05:04 <Phantom_Hoover> whether the binaries are compiled from the source you have
00:05:09 <\oren\> I need a book that explains deferents, epicycles, and equants.
00:05:44 <int-e> @google deferents epicycles equants ptolemaic physics
00:05:46 <lambdabot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferent_and_epicycle
00:05:47 <\oren\> ... and one that isn't in arabic, latin or greek
00:05:51 <moon_> i beleive hackego has it
00:06:44 <fizzie> He's certainly not around *here*. I suppose he might be reachable in general, but I'm too lazy for that sort of thing.
00:07:16 <\oren\> Phantom_Hoover: doesn't explain the math or provide examples of how large the circle is for say venus.
00:07:56 <int-e> anyway. the first page http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi usually covers a week or two... it would be nice if we could keep it that way.
00:08:10 <Phantom_Hoover> the maths is easy, i guess the actual numbers might need some work
00:08:20 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.20494
00:09:08 <\oren\> I want to make a ptolemaic physics mod for KSP
00:09:56 <\oren\> With the real solar system bodies, but in ptolemaic "orbits"
00:12:24 <Phantom_Hoover> http://astro.unl.edu/naap/ssm/animations/ptolemaic.swf has parameters, idk how accurate they are
00:14:11 <int-e> http://digitalcommons.kennesaw.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1045&context=ojur also lists some constants
00:14:28 <int-e> (it's a pdf... strange link)
00:15:26 <int-e> @google ptolomaic system constants
00:15:27 <lambdabot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferent_and_epicycle
00:15:39 <int-e> essentially what I did, though I didn't pick the first link :)
00:16:21 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/append: line 1: : No such file or directory
00:18:06 <int-e> `` rm canary; list
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00:18:16 <moon_> how does shell take input again?
00:18:20 <moon_> like in shellscripts
00:18:21 <HackEgo> BlueProtoman fizzie hppavilion[1] Phantom_Hoover int-e b_jonas boily a`a`a`a`jo7as a`a`a`a`jo8as a`a`a`a`jo3as a`a`a`a`jo6as a`a`a`a`jo5as a`a`a`a`jo4as a`a`a`a`jo2as a`a`a`a`jo1as a`a`a`a`jonas0 a`a`a`a lambdabot chicken_jonas myname
00:18:23 <shachaf> fizzie: I had an idea for keeping state between HackEgo commands but it didn't work.
00:18:47 <\oren\> Oooh, ooh, what if I also added a "aether" between the planets?
00:19:35 <Phantom_Hoover> you'll have to massively rewrite ksp physics if you want drag
00:20:26 <\oren\> Well, it would be a thin all-pervading atmosphere.
00:20:28 <int-e> (I just realized how to expand the acronym...)
00:23:48 <\oren\> with an advanced jet engine you could fly a plane to the moon.
00:24:33 <\oren\> Phantom_Hoover: Like all great mods!
00:24:36 <Phantom_Hoover> you'd need to spend a long time working out corner cases
00:24:37 <int-e> I'm afraid of the next generation of rocket engineers
00:24:59 <Phantom_Hoover> like i think ksp's atmosphere is hardcoded to an exponential curve and a pressure cutoff
00:25:17 <\oren\> With Kopernicus you can edit that though
00:25:54 <moon_> how do shellscripts take command line arguments?
00:26:32 <Phantom_Hoover> moon_, $<number> for individual arguments, $_ (iirc) for the entire argument vector
00:27:49 <\oren\> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not sure, I think so
00:28:16 <shachaf> fizzie: hostfs is too strange hth
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00:30:17 <\oren\> For now I'm messing around with the stock kerbol system
00:30:28 <moon_> would this work? $2 >> $3
00:30:42 <shachaf> `` cat /proc/filesystems | paste
00:30:49 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.7958
00:30:51 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: $@
00:31:03 <moon_> `mk testcmd// $2 >> $3
00:31:23 <moon_> `testcmd derp derp testcmd
00:31:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: testcmd: not found
00:31:31 <moon_> `./testcmd derp derp testcmd
00:31:31 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/testcmd: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/testcmd: cannot execute: Permission denied
00:31:38 <moon_> `mkx testcmd// $2 >> $3
00:31:38 <fizzie> shachaf: FWIW, I seem to recall UML hostfs doesn't have any target directory limits per se, so if you did get root access in the guest, you might be able to mount more things.
00:31:42 <moon_> `./testcmd derp derp testcmd
00:31:42 <HackEgo> /hackenv/testcmd: line 1: $3: ambiguous redirect
00:31:49 <int-e> $_ is a perl thing
00:31:59 <moon_> `./testcmd derp derp test
00:32:00 <HackEgo> /hackenv/testcmd: line 1: $3: ambiguous redirect
00:32:10 <shachaf> fizzie: I just wanted to mmap a file and hide some data in the page cache.
00:32:25 <shachaf> fizzie: But of course you don't just get the host's page as-is.
00:32:36 <int-e> "When used in the text of the message, $_ expands to the ame of the current mailfile." ... from the bash manpage. Don't ask me what it means.
00:33:12 <fizzie> $* is like $@ except they're different when in double quotes.
00:33:17 <\oren\> I will call my mod "Karistotellian"!
00:33:44 <int-e> (Actually I think I get it. But I don't think that there are many systems left that have a mail spool directory on the file system that the shell could watch...)
00:33:44 <shachaf> fizzie: The $@/double-quote interaction is so strange.
00:34:03 <fizzie> Strange, but oh-so-useful.
00:34:31 <int-e> how would you do shell programming without "$@"
00:34:35 <shachaf> `` echo ignored > .hgignore
00:34:59 <\oren\> the atmosphere is actually a piecewise linear
00:35:00 <shachaf> `` hg log | grep summary: | head -n1
00:35:07 <HackEgo> summary: <shachaf> ` echo ignored > .hgignore
00:35:20 <fizzie> shachaf: That's *so* crummy.
00:37:33 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `ignored': No such file or directory
00:38:08 <shachaf> `` echo .hgignore > .hgignore
00:38:41 <moon_> how would i write to a specific line with shellscript?
00:38:46 <shachaf> fizzie: So now you approve of HackEgo text editors, no doubt?
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00:39:40 <moon_> The one im working on already can focus on reading a line, i just need to figure out how to write a line
00:40:04 <fizzie> shachaf: I think you should make a standardized unversioned directory if you want to go ahead with that.
00:40:11 <shachaf> That's one of the great unsolved problems of computer science.
00:40:12 <fizzie> I just wonder what it'll break.
00:40:38 <moon_> the command for readline, by the way, would be 'med rl <linenumber>'
00:40:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: med: not found
00:40:48 <moon_> just checking, and yay
00:41:01 <fizzie> (The reset-redo-commit cycle is so complicated.)
00:41:22 <shachaf> `` echo ishare > .hgignore
00:41:30 <shachaf> i,i echo ibin >> .hgignore
00:41:55 <shachaf> `` echo papaya > ishare/fruit
00:43:06 <moon_> im making a basic text editor for hackego, so i have not been paying attention
00:43:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: type: not found
00:43:30 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `type: not found
00:44:06 <izabera> you launched an interactive process
00:44:08 <moon_> oh, it wont work with the timelimit and the limitations
00:44:17 <moon_> hackego has a timelimit now
00:44:39 <int-e> egobot had some kind of daemons
00:44:40 <moon_> ah, thought you didnt know *confusing self*
00:44:58 <moon_> mine is less interactive and more straight forward
00:45:31 <shachaf> `` mv ishare ignored; echo ignored > .hgignore
00:45:34 <HackEgo> mv: cannot stat `ishare': No such file or directory
00:45:40 <moon_> ie 'med il 11 'this is a line insert''
00:47:03 <moon_> this should work, right? sed -i '${NUM}i\${DATA}'
00:48:26 <izabera> sed -i "$num a $data" and if $data contains newlines you have to escape them
00:48:48 <shachaf> `` echo $'syntax: regexp\n.*' > .hgignore
00:49:19 <izabera> it's probably easier to just use { sed 17q; echo new content here; sed 1,17d; } < input > output
00:49:50 <moon_> could you write that out to use arguments?
00:50:44 <fizzie> shachaf: Isn't that a bit, I don't know, broad?
00:51:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:51:21 <moon_> also, ia, how would i make a argument select the right line in that code?
00:51:22 <izabera> add_after_line () { { sed "$1q"; echo "$2"; sed "1,$1d"; } < "$3" > /tmp/tmp; mv /tmp/tmp "$3"; }
00:51:41 <shachaf> fizzie: I'm surprised that change didn't get ignored.
00:54:56 <shachaf> Well, feel free to revert if you want to change something.
00:55:50 <fizzie> oerjan: I know, right?!
00:55:55 <oerjan> i,i echo .hgignore >> .hgignore
00:56:40 <shachaf> 16:38 <shachaf> `` echo .hgignore > .hgignore
00:57:32 <shachaf> oerjan: what does "i,i" mean when you say it twh
00:57:58 <HackEgo> !\.´ \ advice \ bin \ canary \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ fuck \ good \ hw \ ibin \ ignored \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ logs \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ ps \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ testcmd \ theorems \ tmflry \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
00:58:17 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/med: line 28: syntax error near unexpected token `fi' \ /hackenv/bin/med: line 28: `fi'
00:58:57 <moon_> all the if ... fi's are matched up
00:59:35 <fizzie> The last top-level if isn't closed; and it's missing a bunch of 'then's.
01:01:05 <shachaf> fizzie: See, I don't think it was all that broad.
01:01:44 <fizzie> shachaf: Well... but the problem is, changing it now will erase all the work done since then.
01:02:50 <oerjan> `learn i,i i,i is meaningless hth
01:02:52 <HackEgo> Learned 'i,i': i,i i,i is meaningless hth
01:03:13 <moon_> i fixed it, but its still complaining
01:03:26 <shachaf> oerjan: It has a similar meaning to . o O, I think.
01:03:42 <oerjan> shachaf: i did waver a bit between them.
01:03:56 <moon_> anyone able to fix that? im still no good at shellscript
01:04:00 <fizzie> As far as I can tell, it's still missing a majority of thens.
01:04:03 <oerjan> but it's not exactly the same, i think.
01:04:18 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't see them.
01:04:26 <fizzie> I wasn't expecting them to be on a *different line*.
01:04:34 <shachaf> fizzie: Hmm, one use for hgignore would be fetching a big file like GHC.
01:05:15 <shachaf> fizzie: How are you seeing the file?
01:05:29 <fizzie> shachaf: I'm cheating.
01:05:55 <fizzie> (As in, looking at it on the host.)
01:06:07 <moon_> could you fix it for me, fizzie? im still terrible at shellscript
01:06:55 <shachaf> moon_: fizzie said you shouldn't even be doing it.
01:07:10 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/med: line 31: syntax error near unexpected token `fi' \ /hackenv/bin/med: line 31: `fi'
01:08:33 <fizzie> The []s need some space to breathe, is one thing.
01:09:37 <moon_> Ok, done in my copy, what else?
01:09:54 <fizzie> "filename = $3" is not an assignment.
01:10:28 <fizzie> (It would try to run a command called "filename".)
01:10:40 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
01:10:47 <shachaf> @google "i,i" "i have no point, i just"
01:10:49 <lambdabot> http://touch.amirite.com/229878-youd-be-skeptical-if-an-atheist-or-agnostic-told-you-that-they-want-to-raise-their-children-as
01:10:49 <lambdabot> Title: You'd be skeptical if an atheist or agnostic told you that they want to raise...
01:11:29 <shachaf> @google "i have no point, i just * to say"
01:11:30 <lambdabot> https://twitter.com/_ashfall_/status/706887040986525696
01:11:51 <fizzie> The ap command would also try to execute the given argument as a command, which may or may not be intentional.
01:12:30 <moon_> could you preform the fixes, because i dont get exactly what to do
01:12:43 <moon_> i can learn off of the fixed code
01:16:23 <moon_> So if your working on it, thanks fizzie
01:16:39 <oerjan> ...didn't github's comment box use to allow you to resize it?
01:17:23 <moon_> i found a bad file
01:19:04 <oerjan> i can only see 5 lines at a time now :(
01:19:55 <oerjan> because that's how big github's comment box is.
01:19:55 <shachaf> fizzie: Hmm, when you rm .hgignore, all the changes will be committed at once, right?
01:20:10 <shachaf> Is that because of the strange commit process?
01:20:18 <fizzie> shachaf: Writes happen by cleaning up the repository to a pristine state, then rerunning the command currently being processed.
01:20:49 <moon_> Fizzie, could you clean up the code for med? i want to learn off of a functional copy of it
01:20:53 <shachaf> Wait, but why did it keep an ignored file earlier after I committed?
01:21:19 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/med: line 31: syntax error near unexpected token `fi' \ /hackenv/bin/med: line 31: `fi'
01:21:44 <fizzie> moon_: I'm a bit hesitant because I still don't think it's a good idea in general, but http://sprunge.us/KQie is after one pass of general (untested) cleanups.
01:23:32 * oerjan ponders kicking people randomly until someone answers the question, and wonders if he might need some sugar.
01:24:09 <moon_> i decided to test it rl (readline) doesnt output
01:24:49 <shachaf> Oh, about the history of github's comment box?
01:25:18 <oerjan> i didn't notice it was this awkward last time i tried to write a comment.
01:25:32 <shachaf> oerjan: Mine still allows resizing.
01:25:37 <fizzie> moon_: Oh, =~ also needs [[ .. ]] instead of [ .. ].
01:25:47 <oerjan> i'm wondering if they broke it with that "Attach files" message
01:25:53 <shachaf> There's a little thing at the bottom-right corner.
01:26:07 <shachaf> It's only vertical resizing, though, not horizontal.
01:26:18 <oerjan> well it's vertical i need.
01:26:18 <moon_> fizzie, how would i make rl print?
01:26:23 <moon_> its suppost to print the line
01:26:49 <fizzie> moon_: http://sprunge.us/DMCj works for me: http://sprunge.us/VeDi
01:27:01 <shachaf> oerjan: Another way I can resize it is by right-clicking, and clicking "inspect element", and then changing the CSS "height" attribute.
01:27:46 <oerjan> *sigh* i could do that.
01:28:09 <shachaf> Or you could kick people randomly.
01:28:11 <fizzie> oerjan: By the by, your i,i wisdom entry also fell victim to .hgignore.
01:28:27 <oerjan> maybe it was for the best.
01:28:37 <HackEgo> i,i i,i is meaningless hth
01:28:43 <fizzie> It's there, sure, but not committed.
01:29:22 <moon_> fizzie: [20:29] <moon_> `med rl 4 bin/med [20:29] <HackEgo> No output.
01:30:06 <HackEgo> cat: i,i: No such file or directory
01:30:12 <HackEgo> i,i i,i is meaningless hth
01:30:18 <fizzie> moon_: That's because you're providing it only one argument.
01:30:24 <tswett> i,i i,i is meaningless hth
01:30:42 <shachaf> oerjan: Oh, is the joke that you wrote a double hth on that line?
01:31:24 <tswett> ¿Understands everyone what I just said?
01:31:38 <fizzie> I wonder if I should just remove hgignore and do a sneaky sidechannel commit to restore normality.
01:32:17 <shachaf> please don't be sneaky hth
01:32:22 <oerjan> fizzie: wait, are you saying rm .hgignore might destroy everything?
01:32:24 <shachaf> it's not fair since no one else can be sneaky
01:32:41 <fizzie> oerjan: No, just everything edited since it was added.
01:32:46 <shachaf> `` mv .hgignore hgignore; hg status; mv hgignore .hgignore
01:33:01 <HackEgo> ! .hgignore \ ? bin/med \ ? hgignore \ ? ignored/fruit \ ? share/test \ ? wisdom/i,i
01:33:39 <fizzie> (Because the repository cleanup would remove exactly those files, and then try rerunning the given command again.)
01:33:40 <shachaf> I don't think those things merit sneakiness.
01:34:02 <fizzie> Perhaps not. I'd probably break something if I tried to be sneaky.
01:34:24 <moon_> `` med il 1 'Here is a demo' testcmd
01:34:30 <HackEgo> $2 >> $3 \ Here is a demo
01:34:45 <moon_> `` med il 1 'Note the fact the text is overwritten' testcmd
01:34:49 <HackEgo> $2 >> $3 \ Note the fact the text is overwritten
01:37:45 <fizzie> Yes, I think izabera's command line was expecting to read the input file twice, but then fed it in as a single input to the entire series of commands.
01:38:19 <moon_> I wanted it to do that
01:38:34 <fizzie> `` { sed 1q; echo "insert a line"; cat; } < testcmd
01:38:34 <HackEgo> $2 >> $3 \ insert a line \ Note the fact the text is overwritten
01:39:17 <izabera> { sed 17q /dev/stdin; echo line; sed 1,17d /dev/stdin; } < foo
01:40:42 <fizzie> Huh, I wouldn't have thought of that.
01:40:54 <fizzie> (I'd've just had sed < foo; echo; sed < foo.)
01:42:39 -!- primo has joined.
01:42:59 <zzo38> Now I did write the "ffbit" program. It can be use with Famicom, BytePusher, and whatever else you might use with
01:43:32 -!- primo has left.
01:43:54 <zzo38> (Some formats supported in "bitff" are not yet implemented in "ffbit", although I may add it later)
01:47:43 <tswett> Why do we have an .hgignore file?
01:49:21 <moon_> `med il 1 'Because we do, tsweet' testcmd
01:49:30 <HackEgo> $2 >> $3 \ Note the fact the text is overwritten
01:49:41 <moon_> `` med il 1 'Because we do, tsweet' testcmd
01:49:46 <HackEgo> $2 >> $3 \ Because we do, tsweet
01:57:01 <fizzie> tswett: shachaf added one as a clever/sneaky way of doing unversioned state, and then broadened it up to .* for reasons.
01:57:25 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: The magic was in you all along? <-- wat?
01:57:34 <oerjan> fizzie: were they good reasons
01:58:12 <fizzie> oerjan: I have to assume they were, because they're beyond me.
01:58:29 <tswett> Is it just me, or are we ignoring everything?
01:59:46 <moon_> Why do we want unversioned hackego?
01:59:56 <shachaf> fizzie: Right now I think this ignore file is turning out pretty useful.
02:00:08 <oerjan> moon_: so that we can have temporary files without cluttering history.
02:00:42 <oerjan> shachaf: indeed, it has already discouraged me from adding another wisdom.
02:00:46 <moon_> tip: add med and medexp to it, i update them
02:00:55 <shachaf> oerjan: I meant the thinking of renaming ignored/ to tmp/
02:01:14 <shachaf> oerjan: But your wisdoms are great.
02:01:43 <oerjan> shachaf: well choose your poison.
02:01:55 <shachaf> My position is: More oerjanwisdom.
02:02:08 <shachaf> But all these med edits aren't useful.
02:02:49 <fizzie> So do the latter in your fancy new tmp/?
02:02:57 <shachaf> In fact my full position might be a little bit too rude to say here.
02:05:05 <oerjan> moon_: um "temporary" means scratch data for commands, not the actual commands... we _do_ want to see commands that edit permanent files.
02:05:43 <moon_> I didnt move anything there
02:05:59 <shachaf> oerjan: To be clear: Are you saying that when someone runs a command like that, we want to see it in the repository history?
02:06:25 <shachaf> Or are you saying that we think it would improve the repository to include more commands that can edit permanent files?
02:06:30 <moon_> oerjan, med is a file editor, do you think it would be useful?
02:06:56 <oerjan> moon_: i don't know. how does it improve upon sed -i
02:06:58 <moon_> `med rl 1 tmp/fruit
02:07:07 <moon_> `` med rl 1 tmp/fruit
02:07:10 <fizzie> oerjan: I meant doing the "development" in tmp, then moving the final product into bin.
02:07:12 <moon_> it can preform edits
02:07:30 <moon_> `mv bin/medexp tmp/medexp
02:07:30 <oerjan> fizzie: oh well i guess
02:07:30 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `bin/medexp tmp/medexp' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
02:07:36 <moon_> `` mv bin/medexp tmp/medexp
02:07:54 <moon_> `med is generally a working version
02:08:18 <oerjan> moon_: however, right now _everything_ is ignored.
02:08:33 <oerjan> but presumably someone non-retired will fix that at some point.
02:08:51 <moon_> *points to shachaf*
02:10:37 <moon_> `dos2unix tmp/medexp
02:10:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: medexp: not found
02:10:52 <HackEgo> /hackenv/tmp/medexp: line 33: [: missing `]'
02:11:05 <oerjan> fizzie: are you adding temporary files to fungot
02:11:05 <fungot> oerjan: mr president, i should like to highlight some of the justifications for the four reports discussed by yourselves. i shall repeat, although i find it nothing short of antidemocratic to use a fnord turn of phrase, have not been specific about the contents and structure of the human race, and the decision-maker to take account of the financial perspective up to 2006 are proving, just two different systems of liability. the
02:11:34 <shachaf> oerjan: did fungot just leak your secret identity hth
02:11:34 <fungot> shachaf: mr president, i agree with all the technical assistance offices. we also consider it important and we agree with some of the mistakes made. i feel that they meet the relevant basic requirements in full, and decisions must be taken into account.
02:11:37 <fizzie> For the record, the manual sez regexps are the default syntax and also unanchored by default.
02:11:49 <fizzie> `` echo '^tmp/' > .hgignore # kablam?
02:12:02 <HackEgo> cat: bin/med: No such file or directory
02:12:18 <shachaf> let's leave it like this now
02:12:20 <moon_> what happened to med?
02:12:40 <oerjan> shachaf: this channel is too small for two presidents
02:12:54 <shachaf> are you going to kick me now as a joke
02:13:03 <shachaf> or are you going to kick me for being rude
02:14:08 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
02:14:58 <moon_> *puts a kickme sign on shachaf and uses superglue on it*
02:15:04 <shachaf> I'd rather not be kicked as a joke.
02:15:43 <shachaf> So I should've capitalized those two questions to indicate that they weren't jokes.
02:16:22 <moon_> `` med rl 2 testcmd
02:16:37 -!- oerjan has kicked shachaf.
02:16:44 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
02:17:17 <oerjan> my timing was ruined by spending far too long trying to find tswett's ¿ up above
02:17:28 <HackEgo> #! /bin/bash \ numcheck='^[0-9]\+$' \ add_after_line () { { sed "$1q"; echo "$2"; sed "1,$1d"; } < "$3" > /tmp/medtmp; mv /tmp/medtmp "$3"; } #Thanks izabera! \ if [ "$1" == "rl" ]; then \ if [[ "$2" =~ $numcheck ]]; then \ echo "error: Not a number" >&2;exit 1 \ fi \ NUM="$2" \ cat "$3" | sed "${N
02:17:52 <izabera> why are you escaping + in ^[0-9]+$
02:17:55 <moon_> try reading it a line at a time
02:18:09 <izabera> it's not even the whole script i see
02:18:23 <moon_> `` med rl 1 bin/med
02:18:29 <moon_> `` med rl 2 bin/med
02:18:39 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/med
02:18:55 <moon_> Im not good with regular expressions, thats my excuse
02:19:37 <moon_> the next version is work in progress under tmp/medexp
02:19:53 <izabera> to read a line sed -n 17p file
02:20:00 <izabera> sed is not that hard to use
02:20:20 <moon_> Im no good with bash and sed :P
02:20:26 <moon_> i can be stupid sometimes
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02:29:39 <oerjan> <izabera> `` paste /hackenv/bin/med <-- oh hm. if we're going to have an ignored directory, then paste needs to know about it.
02:30:06 <oerjan> otherwise it will give repository urls that won't exist.
02:30:40 <oerjan> or wait, the logic is in url.
02:30:45 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, os.path, re, urllib \ if len(sys.argv) <= 1: \ print "http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/" \ else: \ f = os.path.abspath(sys.argv[1]) \ f = re.sub(r"^/+hackenv/", "", f) \ if re.match(r"/|\.hg(?:/|$)",f): \ sys.exit("File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository.") \ else: \
02:31:32 <oerjan> that re.match line, hth
02:32:24 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/url
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02:35:05 <oerjan> `` sed -i '8s/.hg/(?:.hg|tmp)/' bin/url
02:35:39 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/url", line 8, in <module> \ if re.match(r"/|\(?:.hg|tmp)(?:/|$)",f): \ File "/usr/lib/python2.7/re.py", line 137, in match \ return _compile(pattern, flags).match(string) \ File "/usr/lib/python2.7/re.py", line 242, in _compile \ raise error, v # invalid expression \ sre_cons
02:37:39 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
02:38:29 <oerjan> `` sed '8s/..hg/(?:\&|tmp)/' bin/url
02:38:31 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, os.path, re, urllib \ if len(sys.argv) <= 1: \ print "http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/" \ else: \ f = os.path.abspath(sys.argv[1]) \ f = re.sub(r"^/+hackenv/", "", f) \ if re.match(r"/|(?:&|tmp)(?:/|$)",f): \ sys.exit("File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository.") \ el
02:38:38 <oerjan> `` sed '8s/..hg/(?:&|tmp)/' bin/url
02:38:39 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, os.path, re, urllib \ if len(sys.argv) <= 1: \ print "http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/" \ else: \ f = os.path.abspath(sys.argv[1]) \ f = re.sub(r"^/+hackenv/", "", f) \ if re.match(r"/|(?:\.hg|tmp)(?:/|$)",f): \ sys.exit("File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository.") \
02:38:48 <oerjan> `` sed -i '8s/..hg/(?:&|tmp)/' bin/url
02:39:04 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.5856
02:39:16 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/url
03:03:11 <coppro> oerjan: where is shachaf?
03:03:21 <oerjan> coppro: i kicked him hth
03:04:08 <oerjan> . o O ( some people are so sensitive )
03:04:12 <coppro> who's teh backup head of the Department of Inadvisably Applied Haskell, then?
03:05:30 <coppro> ok so I am considering the following model for my game engine
03:05:33 <coppro> there are a bunch of phases
03:05:39 <coppro> some things are only valid in certain phases
03:06:02 <coppro> so I'm thinking that each phase will store the relevant state, and the overall game state will be a GameState p
03:06:03 <oerjan> indexed state monad, clearly.
03:06:19 <oerjan> (you did say inadvisable, right?)
03:07:08 <coppro> indexed monads are what I want, but I'm approximating them because I don't want to shave the yak of supporting all the things I want it to support
03:07:10 <oerjan> maybe that new thing everyone's talking about... servant.
03:07:27 <coppro> isn't that a web api thing
03:07:56 <oerjan> i'm not sure it's just web
03:08:14 <coppro> I'm just going to approximate indexed monads and hope that I'm not dumb enough to do something that will break it
03:08:30 <coppro> (I suppose I could always "put undefined" just to be sure)
03:08:51 <coppro> but the inadvisable part is that I need to provide some way to give feedback to the user
03:09:24 <coppro> some options on cards are only valid in certain phases, and I don't want to have to define the effects of each card for each phase differently
03:09:38 <oerjan> coppro: perhaps you want zoom from lens?
03:09:47 <coppro> oerjan: the problem is the typing
03:11:11 <coppro> so the action definitions can be type-safe but then ifctx can turn that static information to dynamic information for the UI
03:11:18 <coppro> (and to make the types not completely suck)
03:15:08 <oerjan> btw shachaf is still online if you want someone qualified.
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04:03:21 <shachaf> oerjan: imo joke kicks are an abuse of +o (especially when they're not clearly jokes) hth
04:04:06 <shachaf> Hmm, why does http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi show a bunch of things that happened during the great ignore?
04:06:50 <shachaf> coppro: I don't follow, anyway.
04:09:35 <coppro> so a player can have a bunch of cards, which may do things. some cards have multiple options to use, but some can only be done at certain times
04:09:43 <coppro> for instance, playing an attack outside of combat
04:10:23 <coppro> you can't play an attack outside of combat
04:10:52 <oerjan> `` echo banana >>tmp/fruit
04:10:53 <oerjan> `` echo apple >>tmp/fruit
04:11:19 <coppro> so an attack might have type (InCombat p) => Effect p ()
04:12:19 <coppro> this makes it type-safe so it can't do anything that it shouldn't be able to do outside its phase, and in particular can't try to access state of the not-current phase
04:12:31 <coppro> but then I can't just make a card have a [Effect p ()] because of the constraint
04:13:59 <coppro> also s/ifctx/ifcxt/ apparently
04:17:08 <oerjan> shachaf: "Files that are already tracked are not affected by .hgignore, even if they appear in .hgignore."
04:17:10 <coppro> the ifcxt library lets me evaluate the constraint and do exactly what I want
04:17:19 <coppro> I just don't know if it's a horrid design to do this erasure
04:21:05 <coppro> on the one hand, if I make that decision, I'm pretty much finished the logic engine and can get to writing code
04:21:18 <coppro> on the other hand, I hate committing to designs
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04:33:05 <shachaf> coppro: You also picked a pretty bad time to ask.
04:33:18 <shachaf> I could hardly keep my eyes open in front of the computer.
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04:57:52 <zzo38> I found a note that was a reply to someone who wanted to copy Macrovisioned VHS to DVD, and it says "There's no way to connect a stabilizer between the VHS and DVD on a combo." However, this is not true. I have a VHS/DVD combo and have been able to connect a stabilizer (although the one I used makes the picture too bright).
04:58:38 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you reply to the reply, to set the record straight?
04:58:51 <shachaf> And by record I mean VHS/DVD combo.
04:59:49 <zzo38> No I did not write a reply
05:11:33 <pikhq> *Ugh*, Macrovision. Had to remind me that that's a thing.
05:27:18 <zzo38> The VHS/DVD combo I have also includes a function to copy a non-Macrovisioned non-finalized DVD to VHS, although the stabilizer could still be used in this case too.
05:28:58 <zzo38> Also, if you do the recording in the way I specified, you still get the OSD and minor synchronization issues, so it is not perfect. (Digi-RGB-Plus includes commands "Synchro Start", "Synchro Stop", and "OSD Suppress", which will help to avoid these problems.)
05:31:57 <zzo38> (For example, a recording device that accepts Digi-RGB-Plus input could include a "Synchro Record" function which is available for that input (normal record function is also available), which if activated will send "Synchro Start" and "OSD Suppress" commands, and then start recording as soon as the playback starts on the external device.)
05:36:00 <zzo38> Do you know how to make up a Magic: the Puzzling where in order to win, it is necessary to copy Phage the Untouchable's first ability with Strionic Resonator?
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05:46:25 <zzo38> Phage the Untouchable is bad luck. (At least it seem like that to me)
05:47:15 <shachaf> How do you look up a card again?
05:47:36 <shachaf> `card-by-name Phage the Untouchable
05:47:38 <HackEgo> Phage the Untouchable \ 3BBBB \ Legendary Creature -- Avatar Minion \ 4/4 \ When Phage the Untouchable enters the battlefield, if you didn't cast it from your hand, you lose the game. \ Whenever Phage deals combat damage to a creature, destroy that creature. It can't be regenerated. \ Whenever Phage deals combat damage to a player, that player lose
05:48:39 <shachaf> `` card-by-name 'Phage the Untouchable' | tail -n+6
05:48:42 <HackEgo> Whenever Phage deals combat damage to a creature, destroy that creature. It can't be regenerated. \ Whenever Phage deals combat damage to a player, that player loses the game. \ LGN-R, 10E-R, CNS-M \ \ Phage the Untouchable Avatar \ Vanguard \ 0/-5 \ Pay 1 life: Until end of turn, whenever a creature deals combat damage to you, destroy that creatu
05:51:45 <zzo38> Copying its first trigger with Strionic Resonator seems like an extremely unlikely thing to do, but I want to see how it can be that it is actually necessary to do that in order to win the game.
05:52:48 <shachaf> Do you mindslave your opponent?
05:53:55 <zzo38> No, I mean in a case where it is your own Phage the Untouchable under your own control, and your own control of the trigger.
05:54:35 <shachaf> Magic: The Puzzling: The Puzzling
05:55:19 <zzo38> This is somewhat like the construction tasks in chess
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07:00:17 * oerjan has a near canaima experience
07:08:10 <izabera> #define isnan(x) (sizeof (x) == sizeof (float) ? __isnanf (x) \
07:08:13 <izabera> : sizeof (x) == sizeof (double) ? __isnan (x) \
07:08:49 <izabera> dunno what that means but i'm assuming it means "how cool is that piece of c code"
07:09:36 <izabera> https://translate.google.com/#auto/en/päivittäinen%20spämmi i was close
07:12:12 <oerjan> obviously. why i keep getting regular finnish spam (often mentioning vacuuming brands) may be beyond human comprehension.
07:12:32 <izabera> wait aren't you norwegian?
07:12:49 <oerjan> well if i were finnish it would be comprehensible, no?
07:13:09 <izabera> idk maybe you're just dumb and can't read your own language
07:14:04 <oerjan> although lately i've been trying to learn how danish is pronounced. ironically the letter that seems hardest so far is "ø".
07:14:41 <oerjan> izabera: something like "gee, i don't think so."
07:15:25 <izabera> http://satwcomic.com/language-lesson
07:15:32 <oerjan> no, i looked at it a few years ago but got bored before finishing the archive.
07:16:45 <oerjan> i got a big epiphany when i read in wikipedia that danish b/d/g are unvoiced (when they're stops. often they are approximants but anyone can notice _that_.)
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07:25:30 <oerjan> izabera: incidentally, would you know if eros ramazzotti sounds as italian accented when he sings in spanish as i'm imagining? my hobby in my new favorite restaurant is to guess which language he's singing in as they have several in both.
07:26:17 <izabera> i don't know how italian accented spanish sounds
07:26:40 <izabera> i know how spanish accented italian sounds
07:26:46 <izabera> also spanish accented english
07:26:53 <oerjan> i suppose i need a spanish speaker.
07:27:30 <oerjan> the thing is, they also have songs by julio iglesias and he sounds _very_ spanish. (because he is.)
07:27:49 <oerjan> while for ramazzotti i have to actually pay attention to the words he uses.
07:30:08 <izabera> are you going to learn all the languages?
07:31:42 <zzo38> If there are 320 pixels per scanline and two clock cycles per pixel, and 240p NTSC video, then what is the clock rate?
07:32:19 <izabera> does NTSC change anything?
07:33:03 * oerjan wonders how the satw guy can think norwegian is more singing than swedish.
07:34:49 <zzo38> izabera: I don't know? The analog video format must involve hblank/vblank as well as only the pixels, isn't it?
07:37:26 <pikhq> zzo38: Assuming the same amount of overscan typical for actual 480p video, you'd be generating a signal of about 328x262 to include the hblank/vblank time.
07:38:08 <pikhq> That isn't *exactly* half of a normal NTSC analog signal, but it's close enough that TVs should handle it (and would match typical retro consoles' implementations).
07:38:45 <izabera> how come you know everything
07:38:55 <pikhq> I can use Wikipedia and Google quickly.
07:42:28 <pikhq> zzo38: If you otherwise match NTSC signal characteristics, you'd be doing 328*262*60/1.001*2 clock cycles per second, or 10.302018 MHz.
07:42:40 <zzo38> I found a document that says the active line duration is 52.2 microseconds (and full line duration is 63.55), so I tried some calculation to result 12.26 MHz but I am not sure if I made the calculation properly; maybe I made a messy mistake.
07:43:51 <pikhq> It's pretty typical with retro consoles to fudge the signal quite a bit: analog TVs were mostly fine so long as you generated the sync signals correctly.
07:44:19 <pikhq> They also tended to cheat in other ways.
07:44:36 <pikhq> For instance, the NES's color sync signal was a square wave rather than a sine wave.
07:44:58 <zzo38> Yes, I know it makes square wave video
07:45:38 <zzo38> But, it has 256 pixels rather than 320; PC and my own system are 320
07:57:10 <zzo38> Do you know what I might have miscalculated if I have done so?
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08:15:00 * oerjan reads the last panel of today's girl genius, and wonders if aldin has met dupree...
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12:25:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Rjozefowicz * New user account
12:42:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ANItka]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=47060 * Rjozefowicz * (+912) Created page with "'''ANItka lang''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] designed by [[Radoslaw J]]. It was developed on the spur of the moment for author's girlfriend Anita. ANItka lan was..."
12:43:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47061&oldid=47058 * Rjozefowicz * (+13)
12:45:06 <fizzie> Oh, a brainfuck derivative. Maybe that wasn't quite the right word, then.
13:00:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ANItka]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47062&oldid=47060 * Rjozefowicz * (+138)
13:03:48 <b_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_B%C3%B6sendorfer_%28piano%29#Extra_keys => whoa, so there's a piano that has extra keys so it can play bass sounds a quint *lower* than a regular piano, and this was requested by a musician who wanted to adapt a solo *violin* piece to a piano.
13:03:54 <b_jonas> Is it only me, or does that sound crazy?
13:30:18 <\oren\> he was ahead of his time
13:30:54 <\oren\> Many forms of modern music use super low bass
13:31:05 <\oren\> he would have loved dubstep
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14:02:37 <izabera> how do i find my mac with ip? :|
14:03:09 <izabera> fuck that idiot who came up with ip as a name for a command
14:18:51 <fizzie> Yes, but plain "ip addr" reports the link-level addresses as well.
14:19:14 <fizzie> And the built-in usage instructions are pretty guessable.
14:20:02 <fizzie> "ip -f link addr show dev X" if you want to be all specific w.r.t. only showing that, and for a particular interface.
14:25:11 <int-e> that is quite big...
14:26:18 <int-e> izabera: it's not impressive for any system that's been running for a while
14:26:41 <int-e> izabera: but Hackego just booted... and needs to spawn 289 processes before that shell?
14:26:51 <int-e> (the UML booted, of course)
14:29:05 <ybden> int-e: would PID randomisation not affect that?
14:29:44 <ybden> that's not how it works
14:29:58 <ybden> A PID doesn't change during the lifetime of the process
14:30:13 <izabera> they're different processes
14:30:15 <ybden> but PID randomisation would give it a non-sequential PID when it starts
14:31:00 <izabera> i see that HackEgo is slowing down again
14:31:12 <int-e> `` sh -c 'echo $$'; sh -c 'echo $$'
14:31:25 <int-e> definitely not very random.
14:31:32 <ybden> right, there's definitely no randomisation going on there
14:31:48 <ybden> I do wonder what it's being hosted on
14:33:14 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
14:33:28 <int-e> it's a user mode linux, and that's more or less all you need to know
14:37:48 <ybden> hm, is UML entirely isolated from the parent system?
14:38:16 <ybden> well, not sharing the parent's /proc, etc.
14:41:48 <int-e> in principle it's its own kernel... but of course there are ways to share resources, and code will still run on the same processor... so you have the usual cache sidechannels and perhaps CPU bugs/backdoors for privilege escalation.
14:43:00 <int-e> (as for sharing resources, there's a hostfs file system to map host directories into the client, for example.)
14:52:00 <fizzie> Yes, and a character device / file descriptor of the UML process mapping as well.
14:52:32 <fizzie> The umlbox sandbox uses that and a custom multiplexing scheme to communicate.
14:54:47 <fizzie> Actually, I think that was [character device in the UML] <-> [two pipes in the host process].
14:55:25 <fizzie> "It is possible to attach UML serial lines and consoles to many types of host I/O channels -- to host ptys, ttys, file descriptors, and ports."
15:07:28 <fizzie> In the file descriptor approach, you set them up before starting the kernel, and it will direct writes to write into one of the descriptors, and reads to read from the other.
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15:19:53 <xfix> `` ps aux | paste
15:20:36 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.12734
15:20:41 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.26849
15:22:07 <xfix> That jump from 77 to 281...
15:22:47 <fizzie> Possibly short-lived kernel threads relevant for boot-time activities?
15:23:04 <xfix> 281 is still a kernel level process.
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15:23:18 <xfix> And assuming process ID doesn't overflow, nothing should run before kernel modules?
15:23:27 <xfix> Other than init (PID 1)
15:24:08 <fizzie> There's init as 285, 286, 287 as well, which probably indicates something about the chronology.
15:25:01 <fizzie> In related news, having that implicit [Nn]ooodl rewrite as part of bin/` is just *so silly*.
15:26:16 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$1" | rnooodl
15:26:37 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "_$topic1"_ = "_ngevd"_ \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl;
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15:37:39 <\oren\> the whole development environment is down because three drives failed at the same time
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15:38:17 <\oren\> the wear leveling seems to have been too level
15:38:42 <b_jonas> \oren\: um, which development environment where?
15:39:22 <\oren\> im slacking off because there is nothing to do
15:40:13 <\oren\> except wait for somebody in californua to fix the raid
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15:44:43 <\oren\> ohGod it says we wont be up untio after lunch... in CALIFORNIA
15:45:14 <\oren\> why did i bother coming into work
15:45:18 <b_jonas> \oren\: whoa... did they say a more specific time than "lunch"?
15:45:59 <b_jonas> that just means the sysadmins who gave the info will be so busy restoring they won't be eating their lunch in time, and it won't be ready till next morning, probably
15:49:11 <\oren\> maybe raids shpuld ve programmed with wear unlevelling
15:50:51 <\oren\> so that they wont fail all at once even if all tye disks are[from the same manufacturer
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17:41:48 <moon_> i've made a new version of med (i tested it in a terminal, too)
17:41:55 <moon_> i think it works better
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17:54:19 <moon_> izabera: i found a much simpler way to insert lines to a file, sed's i operation
17:54:41 <izabera> but then you have to escape any newline
17:54:57 <moon_> yea, but the input is from a argument
17:55:11 <izabera> you can have newlines there
17:55:11 <moon_> so people should do that on there own
17:55:40 <moon_> plus im pretty sure i puts in the newline...
17:55:44 <moon_> from the examples i saw
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18:17:40 <moon_> `fetch http://pastebin.com/raw/0Hzsmpn7
18:17:51 <HackEgo> 2016-05-25 17:17:38 URL:http://pastebin.com/raw/0Hzsmpn7 [916] -> "0Hzsmpn7" [1]
18:18:03 <moon_> `` mv 0Hzsmpn7 bin/med
18:18:16 <moon_> `` chmod +x bin/med
18:18:22 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/med: line 46: syntax error: unexpected end of file
18:18:54 <moon_> `` med rr bin/med 1 3
18:18:55 <HackEgo> #Rewritten by hand \ #info on lines 2 4 9 15 20 26.. continued on line 2 \ #32 38
18:20:18 <moon_> it should be in working order
18:23:13 <moon_> `` med rr bin/med 1 3
18:23:15 <HackEgo> #Rewritten by hand \ #info on lines 2 4 9 15 20 26.. continued on line 2 \ #32 38
18:23:17 <izabera> case $1 in rl) ........ ;; rr) .......
18:23:40 <moon_> `` med dl bin/med 2
18:23:43 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 4: extra characters after command
18:24:13 <izabera> you wrote 4{NUM} instead of ${NUM}
18:24:16 <moon_> i made a one char typo
18:24:52 <moon_> i had to copy it over by hand due to issues
18:26:57 <moon_> `fetch http://pastebin.com/raw/RpzQ6JGr
18:26:59 <HackEgo> 2016-05-25 17:26:50 URL:http://pastebin.com/raw/RpzQ6JGr [916] -> "RpzQ6JGr" [1]
18:27:14 <moon_> `mv RpzQ6JGr bin/med
18:27:15 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `RpzQ6JGr bin/med' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
18:27:22 <moon_> `` mv RpzQ6JGr bin/med
18:27:34 <moon_> `` chmod +x bin/med
18:27:55 <moon_> `med rr testcmd 1 2
18:28:01 <moon_> `` med rr testcmd 1 2
18:28:01 <HackEgo> $2 >> $3 \ Because we do, tsweet
18:28:11 <moon_> `` med dl testcmd 1
18:28:59 <moon_> `` med dl bin/med 2
18:29:17 <moon_> `` med il bin/med 1 ' #info on lines 2 4 9 15 20 26.. continued on line 3'
18:29:30 <moon_> `` med rr bin/med 1 3
18:29:32 <HackEgo> #Rewritten by hand \ #info on lines 2 4 9 15 20 26.. continued on line 3 \ #32 38
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18:30:10 <moon_> actually, i should write in a replace command
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18:37:52 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: copy: command not found
18:37:59 <moon_> how do i make a copy of a file?
18:38:22 <moon_> `` bin/med > tmp/medexp
18:39:08 <moon_> `` med il tmp/medexp 44 'if [ "$1" == "ol" ]; then #override next line'
18:39:49 <moon_> \t is the excape code for tab right?
18:40:56 <moon_> `` med il tmp/medexp 45 '\t NUM="$3"'
18:41:30 <moon_> `` cat tmp/medexp | sed "45!d"
18:41:49 <moon_> why didnt it output?
18:41:53 <moon_> `` cat tmp/medexp | sed -p "45!d"
18:41:54 <HackEgo> sed: invalid option -- 'p' \ Usage: sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \
18:42:38 <moon_> `` cat tmp/medexp | sed - "45p"
18:42:40 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 1: unknown command: `-'
18:42:44 <moon_> `` cat tmp/medexp | sed "45p"
18:43:32 <moon_> `` cat tmp/medexp | sed "45p" > tempcmd
18:44:14 <HackEgo> File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository.
18:44:35 <moon_> `mv tmp/medexp medexp
18:44:36 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `tmp/medexp medexp' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
18:44:41 <moon_> `` mv tmp/medexp medexp
18:44:44 <HackEgo> mv: cannot stat `tmp/medexp': No such file or directory
18:45:02 <moon_> `med rl tmp/medexp 45
18:45:29 <moon_> i cant interact with it fizie
18:45:33 <shachaf> fizzie: this tmp-commit interaction is great
18:46:32 <shachaf> My suggestion is that you just don't write med.
18:46:56 <moon_> its kinda useful already :P
18:48:59 <fizzie> shachaf: I didn't really think about it not being web-visible while in tmp.
18:49:52 <fizzie> I understand it may sound very controversial, but my general suggestion is to do development locally and just `fetch the final product, if it's anything more complicated than three reasonable lines.
18:50:37 <moon_> ok, im ding that now :P
18:51:06 <fizzie> I'm not sure I want to read through all those commands, but "bin/med > tmp/medexp" doesn't make a copy of bin/med -- it writes bin/med's *output* to that file.
18:51:36 <fizzie> ('cp' is the copy parallel of 'mv'.)
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18:53:42 <shachaf> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
18:54:59 <moon_> well im done for now
18:55:28 <moon_> `mv tempcmd tmp/tempcmd
18:55:39 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `tempcmd tmp/tempcmd' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
18:56:03 <moon_> `mk tmp/tempcmd//testt \n test
18:56:39 <moon_> actually, i should honestly stop for now, i realized that
18:56:58 <shachaf> I think you should honestly stop and honestly not start.
18:57:04 <fizzie> `` rm tempcmd testcmd # let's clean up a little
18:59:02 <moon_> `` med il tmp/testcmd 'Testing'
18:59:03 <HackEgo> cat: tmp/testcmd: No such file or directory \ sed: can't find label for jump to `estinga'
18:59:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `????: not found
18:59:28 <fizzie> You didn't put in the number.
18:59:48 <moon_> `` med il tmp/testcmd 1 'Testing'
19:00:35 <moon_> `` med il tmp/testcmd 1 'Testing....'
19:02:22 <fizzie> (I thought you had tested it.)
19:02:41 <fizzie> It made me kind of wonder how all that "cat foo | something > foo" could possibly work.
19:03:43 <moon_> cat foo =operation's output> operation =final output> foo
19:03:58 <fizzie> Yeah, that's not going to work at least on bash.
19:04:15 <fizzie> The output redirection "> foo" makes foo empty before cat reads it in.
19:05:11 <fizzie> (That's why izabera's sed thing used that temporary file.)
19:05:28 <moon_> cat "$2" | sed "${NUM}d" > $out; "$out" > foo # what abut this?
19:05:51 <fizzie> "$out" > foo tries to *execute* $out.
19:06:15 <moon_> you have to be kidding me
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19:07:38 <moon_> *doesnt wana ask, but kinda has to* can you fix it for me? im facedesking over here
19:09:06 <moon_> in fact, i might just make the base of med a c program, with a bash wrapper
19:09:52 <moon_> as i dont understand how i would use the filesystem in hackego, i was told it doesnt work
19:09:54 <fizzie> As long as you don't make it support only files up to a fixed size.
19:10:12 <moon_> KK, ill see what i can do
19:10:33 <moon_> C++ will do better there
19:10:57 <shachaf> what if you just don't write med at all
19:12:07 <moon_> what's hackego's output buffer size limit?
19:12:15 <moon_> like the limit of how large a string can be in irc
19:12:26 <fizzie> `` sed -i -e 's|> "$2"|> /tmp/med.tmp \&\& mv /tmp/med.tmp "$2"|' bin/med
19:12:33 <fizzie> That might've fixed it. Or it might've not.
19:14:26 <fizzie> That's not the limit of how large a string can be in IRC, at least.
19:14:34 <fizzie> It might be HackEgo's output limit, for all I know.
19:14:56 <moon_> can you check hackego's output limit? i need to know it so i can put it in the defines
19:15:09 <fizzie> Why would you need to know that?
19:15:22 <moon_> so med can tell the user when something is too long
19:16:45 <fizzie> `` perl -e 'for ($i = 10; $i < 600; $i += 10) { printf "%010d", $i; }'
19:16:46 <HackEgo> 00000000100000000020000000003000000000400000000050000000006000000000700000000080000000009000000001000000000110000000012000000001300000000140000000015000000001600000000170000000018000000001900000000200000000021000000002200000000230000000024000000002500000000260000000027000000002800000000290000000030000000003100000000320000000033000000003400000000350
19:16:59 <fizzie> Looks like around 350 bytes.
19:17:25 <moon_> thats the exact number
19:17:44 <fizzie> It's also right there in the sources.
19:19:42 <fizzie> Well, the exact limit is actually "if the output is valid UTF-8, then 350 characters, but further upper-bounded by the IRC line length; otherwise 350 bytes", the latter of which will probably always fit on an IRC line.
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19:25:50 <moon_> why i suddenly decided to golf a bit of code, i have no idea: case "ap":if(argc==3){file+=data2}
19:28:16 <moon_> oh i forgot i didnt need them :P
19:32:30 <fizzie> 'if' is pretty extravagant.
19:32:43 <fizzie> case"ap":argc==3&&file+=data2.
19:35:29 <int-e> @tell oerjan * oerjan wonders if aldin has met dupree... <-- or heard of Skifander?
19:36:48 <moon_> i didnt even knw that was valid
19:37:11 <moon_> and im not golfing, i just randomly golfed a piece of code for no reason
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19:49:53 <gamemanj> moon_: well, I don't consider it a good idea
19:50:41 <gamemanj> moon_: using "&&" relies on the specifics about boolean "ands"
19:50:49 <gamemanj> which do not make for understandable code
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20:07:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `med: not found
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20:29:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fold]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47063&oldid=47059 * Moon * (+336) Added a minimal example and its Haskell equivalent
20:30:17 <int-e> 10 updates in 3 months... moonslayer is progressing so slowly...
20:31:38 <int-e> moon_: no relation, it's a webcomic
20:31:44 <gamemanj> int-e: I can say that you're practically lucky... a whole 10 updates in 3 months?
20:31:58 <int-e> http://moonslayer.monicang.com/
20:33:08 <moon_> int-e what do you think of fold?
20:33:59 <moon_> Ah well, i guess the origami tape is a start, at least
20:34:25 <gamemanj> (suffice it to say that the easiest way to enjoy MT in my experience is to read through it in one big archive trawl, then wait a year or so to let your mind lose the plot, and repeat. Otherwise you'll just eventually forget to keep an eye on it...)
20:35:21 <moon_> gamemanj: what do you think of the idea of a folding tape? :P
20:36:19 <int-e> my mind comes up with MegaTokyo, and I'm hoping that's not it.
20:36:54 <moon_> Lol get out of my town
20:39:02 <int-e> so apparently the comic turned into a graphic novel and then a novel
20:39:29 <int-e> (cf. http://steveogden.com/moontown/comic/moon-town-2012/ )
20:39:50 <moon_> $>#&@ this is a infinite incrementer, acting like [0,1..] the Haskell equivalent to it
20:40:17 <int-e> moon_: you may find common references to the celestial body whose name you chose as your nick.
20:42:14 <gamemanj> int-e: Why are you hoping MegaTokyo's not it? (Mind, it's back onto a semi-regular-ish-maybe update schedule. Looking at the last 3's dates - I haven't kept an eye on it for a while - 10 to 15 days, so probably 6 to 9 in 3 months...)
20:44:09 <int-e> gamemanj: Well personally I want to forget that I used to read it.
20:45:19 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin
20:45:22 <gamemanj> This is getting interesting... at what point did you decide this?
20:45:54 <int-e> especially since there are so many well-drawn comics with good stories (and plenty of less well drawn comics with good stories) out there now.
20:52:30 <Phantom_Hoover> looooool megatokyo has a $300k kickstarter for a visual novel that's two years overdue
20:52:48 <Phantom_Hoover> admittedly that's almost reasonable in a world where star citizen exists
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22:26:19 <izabera> i just pushed 5741 new commits on github
22:30:34 <fizzie> Or is that the thing, hmm.
22:31:36 <izabera> i created those 5k commits myself in the last 30 min
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22:32:45 <izabera> we have a bot in #bash and i wrote a script to convert its factoids to a git repo with the right date <.<
22:33:52 <izabera> but i put it in an organization and now it doesn't count in my github commit graph :C
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22:58:18 <HackEgo> Your retired mysterious evil cackling overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a passion. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker.
22:58:33 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/evil/kind/' wisdom/oerjan
22:59:24 <shachaf> Let's experiment with tmp/.
23:00:40 <fizzie> I misread that as TAP.
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23:00:57 <HackEgo> mv: cannot stat `tmp/test': No such file or directory
23:01:01 <HackEgo> cat: share/test: No such file or directory
23:01:05 <HackEgo> cat: tmp/test: No such file or directory
23:01:10 <shachaf> `` hg log | grep summary: | head -n1
23:01:19 <HackEgo> summary: <shachaf> ` sed -i \'s/evil/kind/\' wisdom/oerjan
23:01:40 <fizzie> Well, that makes sense, as much as it can.
23:02:20 <fizzie> It's all so logical, yet strange.
23:02:22 <shachaf> OK, well, using tmp/, a command can figure out whether it's running for the first or second time.
23:02:35 <shachaf> So there are probably a few things we could fix that way.
23:02:50 <fizzie> I think that's been done, though I forget exactly how.
23:03:04 <fizzie> Easier with tmp/, of course.
23:03:40 <shachaf> fizzie: I forgot about that interpretation of every string that ends with a /.
23:04:03 <shachaf> fizzie: Does mail/ work these days?
23:04:07 <lambdabot> Local time for fizzie is Wed May 25 23:04:06 2016
23:04:16 <shachaf> Maybe not the right time to ask.
23:04:24 <fizzie> I'm not sure what it would be. Something else than m/?
23:04:50 <shachaf> At one point it wasn't working and I think I submitted a CL to fix it though I'm not sure anymore.
23:04:57 <fizzie> I don't know, I've always just used the short thing.
23:05:55 <shachaf> I found out about the short thing too late.
23:06:15 <fizzie> Recently I've been infiltrating the downstairs folks who work on TTS.
23:06:16 <shachaf> fizzie: What do you do about URLs like that not supporting https? twh
23:07:40 <fizzie> I'm not sure. I know I put in all go/ links via https://goto. and so on.
23:08:13 <fizzie> I do, though I don't think people generally bother.
23:08:54 <shachaf> You mean goto. as a TLD or goto and then a domain name?
23:09:07 <fizzie> Goto and a domain name.
23:09:34 <fizzie> Sorry, that was a bit ambiguous.
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23:50:15 <lambdabot> int-e said 4h 14m 45s ago: * oerjan wonders if aldin has met dupree... <-- or heard of Skifander?
23:51:01 <oerjan> @tell int-e ooh, good idea. i was just thinking that since Tarvek had similar experience...
23:51:32 <shachaf> james james / morrison morrison / weatherby george dupree
23:53:23 <oerjan> shachaf: why are you slandering me in wisdom that's EVIL
23:53:42 <oerjan> ...clearly you are trying to push me off the evil throne
23:54:16 <shachaf> being retired, you can't do a thing about it hth
23:54:45 <fizzie> oerjan: Did you see the part where "mv tmp/foo some_nonignored_path" is equivalent to "rm tmp/foo"? I liked that part.
23:55:26 <shachaf> What if some_nonignored_path already exists?
23:55:46 <shachaf> I guess the behavior would be the same.
23:56:02 <fizzie> I completely did not think of it when suggesting to do things in tmp/ and then move them to a persistent place when ready.
23:56:11 <fizzie> It was not a sneaky plan to cause discord.
23:56:32 <shachaf> `` sed -i s/kind/sneaky/ wisdom/oerjan
23:56:59 <oerjan> fizzie: that is a completely plausible and not suspicious clarification.
23:57:24 <shachaf> oerjan: your last statement has undertones of sarcasm
23:57:37 <oerjan> but if you keep it up, i may have to link to tvtropes (&| allthetropes)
23:57:37 <fizzie> Beep boop I am a robot.
23:57:55 <shachaf> Now I can't tell whether it was a sneaky fizzie plan to cause discord.
23:58:15 <int-e> `grep throne wisdom/*
23:58:29 <shachaf> oerjan used to be on the evil throne
23:58:29 <oerjan> fizzie: pating bedoop?
23:58:33 <int-e> `` grep throne wisdom/*
23:58:34 <shachaf> but then he was evil overthrone
23:58:46 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
23:58:52 <fizzie> fungot: What are thrones good for?
23:58:52 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ Binary file wisdom/reflection matches
23:58:52 <fungot> fizzie: vampires hate garlic. go-daigo eventually escaped and established the emperor komyo on the floor. ( the tyger, by michael flanders) of lahmu and lahamu. anshar is mentioned in the dungeon while wearing a closely fitting robe with only his hands free.
23:58:53 <shachaf> Y'all ought to use rgrep instead instead of grep wisdom/*
23:59:08 <int-e> I just wonder how the evilness of a throne would manifest itself
23:59:25 <int-e> I suppose it would fail to be there the moment somebody tries to sit on it
00:00:24 <fizzie> fungot: So Anshar sat on a throne?
00:00:24 <fungot> fizzie: eating a yeti. peace and quiet boy, and kill him. " it is among the captains of the bush there came a low hiss a horrid cold sound that made rikki-tikki jump back two clear feet. then inch by inch out of those unwary enough to allow the lovely sweet taste to spread out, and secretly covets moloch's position. moloch doesn't trust him, then gradually changes color until it is among the weaker of demons, wallows in filth a
00:01:13 <HackEgo> These are not the yetis you are looking for.
00:02:30 <shachaf> fizzie: were you being sneaky or not
00:02:55 <HackEgo> fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the king of #esoteric, see http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/src/fizziecoin.jpg
00:03:15 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/k/sneaky k/' wisdom/fizzie
00:03:24 <shachaf> `` sed -i s/sneaky/kind/ wisdom/oerjan
00:03:38 <oerjan> `le/rn evil throne/The evil throne belongs to oerjan, when he's not being overthrone. He rarely sits on it, though, since that time it tried to eat him.
00:03:51 <oerjan> `le/rn evil throne/The evil throne belongs to oerjan, when he's not being overthrone. He rarely sits on it, though, since that time it tried to eat him.
00:04:01 <oerjan> always mixing up the space dogmas
00:07:28 <oerjan> shachaf: i figure i cannot swat you for a pun i end up stealing hth
00:07:50 <shachaf> oerjan: I gave you that pun in a half-finished state.
00:08:01 <shachaf> I'd like to make it work grammatically but I didn't figure out how.
00:09:04 <HackEgo> drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in ancient times.
00:09:47 <int-e> `` cd wisdom; echo *sex*
00:09:47 <shachaf> that reminds me of a play i was in once
00:09:53 <HackEgo> Sex is a board game which originated in Britain in the 1870s before spreading throughout Europe in the 1890s. Sex was introduced to the rest of the world by a book, "The Complete Guide to Sex", written and published in 1932, based on the author's extensive experience with a wide variety of forms of European sex.
00:10:07 <shachaf> the line was "the poisoner mounts the throne", and i played the part of the throne
00:10:43 <oerjan> did you eat the poisoner twh
00:10:48 <fizzie> `` grep 'rone$' share/dict-words | xargs
00:10:50 <HackEgo> Gaborone Tyrone chaperone crone dethrone drone enthrone krone minestrone progesterone prone testosterone throne
00:12:00 <oerjan> int-e: you will note that Taneb did not invent it hth
00:12:06 <int-e> `` grep 'gry$' share/dict-words | xargs
00:12:31 <shachaf> oerjan: i don't think that happens in that play hth
00:13:18 <fizzie> http://www.merriam-webster.com/help/faq-third-common-gry-word lacks demagogry, but has a number of others.
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00:14:16 <oerjan> helping the inevitable along. uhoily.
00:14:23 <\oren\> I thoht it was spelt demagogury?
00:14:47 <int-e> tail share/dict-words
00:14:51 <int-e> `` tail share/dict-words
00:14:54 <HackEgo> élan's \ émigré \ émigré's \ émigrés \ épée \ épée's \ épées \ étude \ étude's \ études
00:15:20 <\oren\> false! é is not a letter in English words!
00:15:22 <fizzie> `` grep '^demagog' share/dict-words | xargs
00:15:25 <HackEgo> xargs: unmatched single quote; by default quotes are special to xargs unless you use the -0 option \ demagog
00:15:35 <shachaf> oerjan: did we learn that serious physical violence is the solution to mild linguistic frustration
00:15:38 <fizzie> Hm, shouldn't have tried to fancy.
00:15:41 <fizzie> `` grep '^demagog' share/dict-words
00:15:42 <HackEgo> demagog \ demagog's \ demagogic \ demagogry \ demagogs \ demagogue \ demagogue's \ demagoguery \ demagoguery's \ demagogues \ demagogy \ demagogy's
00:15:53 <fizzie> I just don't like the backslashes.
00:15:56 <oerjan> shachaf: that's the kind of message black hat guy would approve of.
00:16:26 <shachaf> i can undestand not wanting to be around linguists
00:16:49 <boily> hé\\orén\. what about "résumé" and "pâté"?
00:16:53 <fizzie> I think the it's-language explanation works much better with the other wording.
00:17:11 <fizzie> "Think of three words ending in -gry. Angry and hungry are two of them. There are only three words in the English language. What is the third word?"
00:17:29 <\oren\> boily: you mean resume and pate
00:18:03 * boily diacrithwacks \oren\
00:18:51 <boily> it's like our French cousins who say "patte" and "pâte" the same way. diacritics are there for a reason! they must be pronounced!
00:18:56 <shachaf> \oren\: I bet you don't believe in multiocular o, either.
00:19:43 <tswett> They forgot the word "burgry".
00:19:47 <oerjan> that xargs default looks very unhelpful.
00:19:52 <shachaf> boily: They don't speak French in \oren\'s country.
00:19:53 <tswett> You know—"with burger", "full of burger".
00:20:42 <oerjan> `` grep '^demagog' share/dict-words | fmt -w350
00:20:44 <HackEgo> demagog demagog's demagogic demagogry demagogs demagogue demagogue's demagoguery demagoguery's demagogues demagogy demagogy's
00:22:29 <shachaf> some people don't care for my rhetoric because of my accent. but when i speak in deir dialect, it leaves dem agog
00:22:56 * boily thwacks shachaf. 0.95 shachafs
00:23:06 <shachaf> the "th" and "th" sounds in english are absent in a lot of languages
00:24:36 <lambdabot> *** "agog" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
00:26:18 <\oren\> i could have sworn there was some sort of place called "magog"
00:26:32 <oerjan> tswett: i'm not sure i agry to that word
00:26:42 <oerjan> \oren\: gog and magog are in the bible iirc
00:27:38 <shachaf> I wonder where Jafet's gone.
00:28:31 <\oren\> ah I know, I saw it in one of those conspiracy theory videos on youtube
00:28:49 <pikhq> How many languages even have dental fricatives?
00:28:54 <\oren\> gog is the EU and magog is China
00:29:24 <shachaf> pikhq: We can be sure that Molvanian doesn't.
00:29:31 <boily> \oren\: there's a Magog in Québec, and a Lac Memphrémagog.
00:30:24 <\oren\> the apocalypse will come, not as a war, but a hockey riot that ends the universe
00:30:24 <shachaf> Jafet was a champion at amused detachment.
00:33:49 <\oren\> when the maple leafs defeat the canadiens and secure the stanley cup, the earth will shudder to a halt, and burning police cars will rain from orbit!
00:34:47 <\oren\> that'll teach them to make fun of Canada!
00:35:03 <boily> as much as I root for the Leafs, and as much as the Habs just plain suck, I highly doubt it'll ever happen hth
00:35:18 <boily> (doesn't mean it won't be fun if it ever does!)
00:35:35 <oerjan> pikhq: icelandic, spanish, greek at least.
00:36:41 <shachaf> is that only in spanish spanish?
00:36:43 <\oren\> spanish doesn't have th?
00:36:56 <\oren\> at least not when I learned it
00:37:00 <oerjan> shachaf: ah yes. the unvoiced one.
00:37:21 <oerjan> \oren\: it's not in latin american spanish, usually.
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01:24:43 <oerjan> <fizzie> shachaf: I didn't really think about it not being web-visible while in tmp. <-- i did, that's why i fixed `url to notice. `paste should still work although of course copies.
01:38:56 <HackEgo> Your retired mysterious kind cackling overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a passion. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker.
01:39:13 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/kind/adjectival/' wisdom/oerjan
01:47:11 <HackEgo> "Only sane man" boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department. He is also a renowned Capitalist.
01:47:43 <boily> oerjan is about to outlength me! 'tis unacceptable!
01:48:07 <oerjan> `` wc wisdom/{oerjan,boily}
01:48:10 <HackEgo> 1 45 291 wisdom/oerjan \ 1 44 292 wisdom/boily \ 2 89 583 total
01:49:34 <oerjan> boily: it's not my fault that shachaf keeps adding stuff.
01:49:46 <oerjan> `culprits wisdom/oerjan
01:49:58 <HackEgo> oerjan shachaf shachaf shachaf oerjan shachaf shachaf shachaf shachaf oerjan oerjan int-e shachaf shachaf shachaf oerjan shachaf oerjan shachaf oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull shachaf shachaf ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull oerjan FreeFull oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf shachaf nitia
01:51:14 <lambdabot> CYUL 260000Z 31010KT 15SM FEW050TCU SCT240 23/12 A2998 RMK TCU1CI2 SLP155 DENSITY ALT 900FT
01:51:37 <lambdabot> KATL 252352Z 18007KT 10SM SCT250 28/12 A3017 RMK AO2 SLP208 T02780122 10306 20278 55003
01:53:02 <lambdabot> KFNL 260035Z AUTO 14007KT 10SM CLR 22/06 A2992 RMK AO1
01:53:22 <boily> that is disturbingly west!
01:53:42 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/He can[^.]*./Now when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up instead./' wisdom/oerjan
01:53:51 <HackEgo> Your retired mysterious adjectival cackling overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a passion. Now when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up instead. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker.
01:54:36 <oerjan> @tell fizzie <fizzie> shachaf: I didn't really think about it not being web-visible while in tmp. <-- i did, that's why i fixed `url to notice. `paste should still work although of course copies.
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01:55:43 <lambdabot> ENVA 252350Z 09005KT 360V110 9999 BKN034 06/02 Q1026 RMK WIND 670FT 07005KT
01:56:22 <oerjan> neither warm nor humid, at the moment.
02:13:56 <boily> bonnuitopia, børjanne nuit!
02:14:09 <boily> . o O ( hmm... how can I bonne nuit shachaf... )
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02:37:29 <tswett> b'The important thing is to not stop questioning.istioning.ispioning.ostioning.istioning.istioning.ist'
02:44:29 <tswett> b'Thesio.oiiiiuoiioiioioioii.iis.oiioiipiissoooiiigpoiipioiigsiiugo oipogiiiiiiiiiie iiiiipiemiiiiiioe'
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03:11:21 <\oren\> once again I am cursed to watch ion engines run for hours on end
03:13:43 <\oren\> I have to perform a burn of 1400 m/s with a engine that accelerates at 0.5 m/s^2
03:15:07 <\oren\> in this case it's only 40 minutes but still
03:21:39 <\oren\> I made the mistake of sending out 6 probes of the same design, with nuclear engines...
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03:52:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Z]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=47064 * 71.202.114.203 * (+2013) Described a programming language I invented.
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04:59:44 <\oren\> is there a way to pause a program at a particular point and save it as an executable?
05:00:22 <pikhq> Not without a *lot* of hacks.
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07:21:34 <\oren\> Yay, obligatory swimsuit episode
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08:00:50 <shachaf> oerjan: I've been editing instead of adding lately.
08:04:09 <b_jonas> \oren\: there used to be, but these days operating system and runtime state of programs got much more complicated, so it usually doesn't work.
08:05:27 <b_jonas> \oren\: so it's possible only if you control what your program does, but that involves lots of things including internal details of the libc
08:05:33 <b_jonas> \oren\: the keyword to look for is undump
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08:09:28 <hppavilion[2]> ...apparently sascatchewan was planning to (and perhaps did) kill free speech in march
08:09:40 <hppavilion[2]> Good thing it can't affect anything real, given that it's a made-up place
08:11:56 <HackEgo> Your retired mysterious adjectival cackling overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a passion. Now when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up instead. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker.
08:13:00 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/\./ lately./' wisdom/oerjan
08:13:07 <shachaf> Too bad that trick doesn't work on logreaders.
08:15:33 <b_jonas> nice, he's got updated text
08:15:55 <b_jonas> ``` cat wisdom/o[ex]r[jt]a[np]
08:16:07 <HackEgo> Your retired mysterious adjectival cackling overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a passion. Now when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up instead. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker.
08:16:31 <shachaf> `` hg log | grep summary: | grep amortized
08:16:42 <HackEgo> summary: <oerjan> ` sed -i \'s/He can[^.]*./Now when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up instead./\' wisdom/oerjan \ summary: <shachaf> learn An amortized word is a word that oerjan can never remember. \ summary: <oerjan> learn_append oerjan He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience.
09:10:54 <fungot> hppavilion[2]: they say that a potion of healing can cancel a potion of sickness. fear would have been wiped off the tree, and one of his face and his sword-blade was stained black. it has the power to protect the wearer's view sense into the base, two! and through and through and through the torso. the glare from the third time, at night.
09:13:54 <hppavilion[2]> I just found the official list of Acceptable Venezuelan Pranks
09:57:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Pallinger * New user account
09:58:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Anguish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=47065 * Pallinger * (+443) Anguish language summary and link to definition and interpreter
10:00:48 <izabera> unsigned int true_random_seed(void)
10:00:50 <izabera> // return a true random seed (which depends on the time)
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10:07:54 <Koen_> @message oerjan I tried to send a message via lambdabot and it did not work. You told me it did not work. I already knew it did not work, but not how to make it work.
10:07:54 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages messages-loud messages?
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10:11:36 <shachaf> oerjan: "amortized" is from latin, right? it means "beloved"?
10:50:19 <b_jonas> I'm undoing all my work on a code because I have to make it compatible with some other code that works completely differently
10:50:29 <b_jonas> most of the interface and implementation will change
10:52:24 <Koen_> I guess that's why they say "encapsulating" is so important. does the other code really have to know how your code is doing things?
10:52:37 <b_jonas> Koen_: both are encapsulated and have proper interfaces
10:52:58 <b_jonas> it's just that their interfaces are so different that I can't just turn my code a wrapper around the other code like I wanted
10:53:38 <b_jonas> the other code requires that I provide some values earlier during some process, and it supplies some other values later
10:53:48 <b_jonas> whereas my code does those two things at the same time
10:54:48 <Koen_> then I guess the only remaining options are to either curse the other code for being different, or thank the other code for forcing a new way of thinking upon your code
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11:03:36 <b_jonas> Koen_: I'm cursing the other code, yes
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12:05:34 <ski> /msg MemoServ send Koen__ you can also send messages like this, use the `list' and `read' (see `help') commands with `MemoServ' to read. notification on identification, iirc
12:09:39 <Koen__> true, but I'd need to be identified to send or receive messages that way
12:24:41 <ski> hm, receive, anyway
12:24:47 * ski doesn't know about send
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12:32:28 <fizzie> lambdabot has a much more personal touch than MemoServ.
12:33:47 <b_jonas> ``` cd wisdom && find -iname "*laugh*"
12:34:07 <b_jonas> ski: you need to be identified to send a message as well
12:35:12 <ski> lambdabot `tell' has the advantage of notifying on activity
12:45:09 <b_jonas> ski: memoserv notifies when you identify to nickserv (or at connection if that's when you identify)
12:48:04 <ski> ok (as i said, then)
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13:21:18 <b_jonas> ``` cd wisdom && find -iname "*laugh*" && echo ZdlNKYtR
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13:52:26 <ski> ``` echo No output.
14:19:25 <fizzie> `` cat bin/No # spoilers
14:47:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Z]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47066&oldid=47064 * Keymaker * (+4) Linked truth-machine to its page.
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15:10:53 <int-e> `` shift -1 # too bad
15:11:03 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: shift: -1: shift count out of range
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16:26:47 <\oren\> `` echo # i dont know bash syntax. will this be output?
16:28:29 <\oren\> right but i didnt know whether # starts a comment at the end of a line
16:29:26 <\oren\> in basic rem only works at the start
16:30:39 <\oren\> hmmm... actually apparently in vb .net it now works anywhere in a line
16:31:53 <\oren\> i could have sworn that wawnt the case ij vb6
16:37:11 <fizzie> QBasic allowed 'comment in-line with other statements, but not rem comments.
16:37:15 <fizzie> https://gamma.zem.fi/~fis/qbc.html#QEw4MDg0
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17:08:13 <int-e> I'll make sure to keep that in mind.
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19:58:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Natemara * New user account
20:00:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bugmaker]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47067&oldid=24852 * Natemara * (+114) /* Gotchas */
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20:46:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stapler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47068&oldid=40269 * LegionMammal978 * (+34) formatting
20:47:13 <zenobit> a dude who made https://bitbucket.org/little-bit/zeno
20:50:21 <quintopia> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Quintopia
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21:07:18 <Koen_> I see you're dodging the questions then
21:08:19 <gamemanj> I think zenobit lost connection before you asked, judging by the ping timeout
21:09:33 <gamemanj> hmm. Leaves the opportunity that the client disappeared the moment it received your message, but...
21:15:03 <Koen_> a little tired and looking forward to a boring month of june
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22:58:37 <shachaf> oerjan: if fizzie's the king of #esoteric, why do you have the throne?
23:01:44 <Taneb> shachaf, oerjan could be the queen
23:02:47 <shachaf> Taneb: is this a xanth-style usage of the words hth
23:03:49 <Taneb> I am not sure what you mean by that
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23:04:54 <lambdabot> *** "queen" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
23:04:54 <lambdabot> n 1: the only fertile female in a colony of social insects such
23:04:54 <lambdabot> as bees and ants and termites; its function is to lay eggs
23:04:54 <lambdabot> 2: a female sovereign ruler [syn: {queen}, {queen regnant},
23:05:03 <shachaf> <oerjan> shachaf: i'm pretty sure i'm male
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23:31:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[InterpretMe]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=47069 * 38.99.32.130 * (+211) Created page with "InterpretMe is a joke language created by an anonymous user (the same user who created [[z]]). The language is as follows: <pre> *: run self-interpreter </pre> A self-interpre..."
23:32:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47070&oldid=47061 * 38.99.32.130 * (+8) /* Z */
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23:34:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47071&oldid=47051 * 38.99.32.130 * (+65)
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23:40:54 <oerjan> Koen_: i saw your message in the logs. i have no idea what you're referring to.
23:41:38 <Koen_> oh that reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend not long ago
23:41:45 <oerjan> and it's been so long since you were last here that it's probably useless to check recent logs.
23:42:23 <Koen_> it went like so: "-what? -what? -what? -did you say something? -no. did you? -no. -ok"
23:43:57 <oerjan> <shachaf> Too bad that trick doesn't work on logreaders. <-- shocking
23:44:11 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Fri May 27 00:44:10 2016
23:44:37 <shachaf> oerjan: It doesn't work on you at all anymore, because I used it too much.
23:44:37 <oerjan> shachaf: that edit wouldn't have fit well grammatically, i think.
23:44:58 <oerjan> shachaf: true. no, i came back from the restaurant.
23:45:08 <oerjan> pizza with chicken and pesto.
23:45:10 <shachaf> oerjan: well neither does the "Now" at the beginning of the third sentence hth
23:46:02 <HackEgo> Your retired mysterious adjectival cackling overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a passion. Now when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up instead. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker.
23:46:10 <oerjan> shachaf: i considered changing it to "Nowadays", but this all started with boily complaining it was too long...
23:46:49 <oerjan> the solution is, of course, obvious.
23:47:01 <shachaf> i think we thought of the same solution at the same time hth
23:47:06 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/Now/Lately/' wisdom/oerjan
23:47:36 <shachaf> oerjan has been editing lately instead of adding
23:54:12 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: "amortized" is from latin, right? it means "beloved"? <-- you may be confusing with "amatus" hth
23:54:42 <shachaf> oerjan: the pun was meant to be about "amor"
23:56:45 <oerjan> the words aren't even related, it's ad + mort-
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00:09:33 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: if fizzie's the king of #esoteric, why do you have the throne? <-- just the evil throne. fizzie wisely refuses to use it.
00:10:15 <shachaf> `? `` sed -i 's/sneaky/kind sneaky/' wisdom/fizzie
00:10:29 <shachaf> time to pile on the adjectives
00:10:54 <HackEgo> fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the sneaky king of #esoteric, see http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/src/fizziecoin.jpg
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00:11:48 <shachaf> i didn't even type what i meant
00:11:52 <shachaf> `? `` sed -i 's/sneaky/wise sneaky/' wisdom/fizzie
00:12:00 <shachaf> not sure where the word "kind" came from
00:12:11 <oerjan> i guess it was just a kind error.
00:12:17 <shachaf> must've been oerjan's kindness leaking through
00:12:42 <HackEgo> Your retired mysterious adjectival cackling overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a passion. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up instead. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker.
00:12:51 <oerjan> `` grep -r sneaky wisdom
00:12:58 <HackEgo> wisdom/fizzie:fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the sneaky king of #esoteric, see http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/src/fizziecoin.jpg
00:13:04 <shachaf> what's the itymology on that one
00:13:42 <oerjan> `learn Ichtymology is like itymology, but even more fishy.
00:13:46 <HackEgo> Learned 'ichtymology': Ichtymology is like itymology, but even more fishy.
00:14:01 <Koen_> did I just officially invent a word?
00:14:15 <Koen_> I can check that off my list
00:14:28 <lambdabot> dropFromEnd n xs = zipWith const xs (drop n xs)
00:15:17 <lambdabot> lazyReverse xs = go xs (reverse xs) where go (_:xs) ~(y:ys) = y : go xs ys; go [] ~[] = []
00:16:22 <oerjan> why isn't go just zipWith (flip const)
00:17:15 <Koen_> so, I just bought this computer that can store real numbers
00:17:21 <Koen_> what can I do with it?
00:18:02 <oerjan> shachaf: hm not in the right way, i think.
00:18:08 <Koen_> well, only a finite number of real numbers at any given time
00:18:25 <shachaf> oerjan: do you mean that you want to snack rather than to be snacked
00:19:24 <shachaf> Koen_: Even uncomputable ones?
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00:20:29 <oerjan> Koen_: just get hold of Chaitin's omega and you're in business.
00:21:51 <oerjan> shachaf: as in, i already had some chocolate and now i might be slightly feeling the blood sugar falling again.
00:22:14 <oerjan> and although it's tempting to eat more, it might make it worse.
00:22:23 <oerjan> maybe just a tiny piece ->
00:22:27 <shachaf> it might make it better too
00:22:32 <shachaf> you never, like, know, man
00:22:54 <Koen_> oerjan: wait, I said store, not compute
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00:23:21 <Koen_> just because it could manipulate a number doesn't mean it could solve any equations of which that number is the solution
00:24:23 <oerjan> Koen_: i guess it depends on what manipulations you can do.
00:24:43 <shachaf> Koen_: Can it store a number in constant time?
00:25:01 <oerjan> there are some numbers that people would be highly interested in knowing whether they are rational.
00:25:28 <Koen_> is that an open problem?
00:25:42 <lambdabot> class (Num a, Ord a) => Real a where
00:25:51 <lambdabot> *Exception: not a rational number: e * pi
00:25:51 <Koen_> surely some teacher would have mentioned it if it was
00:25:57 <lambdabot> 1201860745721117 % 140737488355328
00:26:43 <oerjan> <Koen_> well, only a finite number of real numbers at any given time <-- you can compress a countable number of real numbers into a single one hth
00:27:17 <Koen_> I've been at some unease towards real numbers for a very long time
00:27:30 <oerjan> Koen_: yes, neither e*pi nor e+pi are known.
00:27:40 <oerjan> although they cannot both be rational
00:27:48 <Koen_> e+pi isn't known??
00:27:58 <Koen_> there are some obvious gaps in our maths
00:29:50 <oerjan> well, known whether rational or algebraic
00:29:50 <Koen_> how come I have never heard about that before? I have had math teachers!!
00:30:01 <oerjan> obviously you can calculate just about as many digits as you like.
00:30:43 <Koen_> "The best-known transcendental numbers are π and e." (wikipedia)
00:30:49 <Koen_> well apparently we don't know a lot
00:31:06 <oerjan> of course the expected result is that every combination of e and pi that doesn't have an obvious reason to be algebraic, is transcendental.
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00:32:52 <oerjan> e^pi is also known, as a consequence of being a value of i^(1/i).
00:34:06 * ski . o O ( <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feigenbaum_constants> )
00:36:44 <Koen_> http://i.imgur.com/WcGcdkZ.png :(
00:37:09 <Koen_> does that mean we only have 11 transcendental numbers so far
00:38:20 * ski . o O ( <http://math.andrej.com/2008/02/06/representations-of-uncomputable-and-uncountable-sets/> )
00:38:48 <fizzie> "Any non-constant algebraic function of a single variable yields a transcendental value when applied to a transcendental argument. For example, from knowing that π is transcendental, we can immediately deduce that numbers such as 5π, (π − 3)/√2, (√π − √3)8 and (π5 + 7)1/7 are transcendental as well."
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00:40:39 <Koen_> well, this has been very interesting
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00:41:15 <shachaf> should i do a presentation about chu spaces
00:42:23 <shachaf> what sorts of "cool chu space facts" would you talk about
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01:26:03 <quintopia> oh? i've always gound it rather difficult to get rid of ticks.
01:26:49 <quintopia> especially when they are on my back where I cant see or grab them
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01:34:36 <izabera> don't complain when people find your jokes funny
01:37:31 <quintopia> im not complaining, judt didnt realize you were talking about that
01:38:06 <quintopia> also ssssh about the bad puns. i dont want oerjan to have to get out the frying pan
01:45:44 <fizzie> "Skipping 0 bytes of junk at 0."
01:47:08 <dnm> Anyone have any favorite non-esoteric (but probably still pretty much esoteric by modern standards) macro languages?
01:47:43 <fizzie> I think we had a m4 fan here?
01:47:57 <dnm> I'm currently tinkering with TRAC, SAM76, TINT (which is a sort of TRAC clone/expansion), ML/I, and SNOBOL4 (not a macro language, I know).
01:49:08 <dnm> Really TRAC, SAM76, Tint, and TTM are all kinda similar, especially the first three.
01:49:31 * oerjan injects quintopia with an experimental treatment for borreliosis
01:49:32 <dnm> (SAM76 and Tint are intentionally derived from TRAC. TTM looks like it is, though the papers never mention it at all.)
01:50:15 <oerjan> side effects include extra appendices and rarely exploding
01:52:39 <izabera> where would those extra appendices appear?
01:53:04 <dnm> shachaf: Hey!
01:53:05 <oerjan> that's pretty varied. back of the head is common.
01:53:24 <dnm> shachaf: LTNIRC
01:53:47 <dnm> shachaf: How are you?
01:58:18 <dnm> shachaf: yep!
02:05:23 <fizzie> Our TTS reads "WA" in Finnish text by using the generic word pronunciation generator. I don't think that's right, but I'm not sure what *would* be.
02:06:08 <fizzie> Oh, something I learned only very recently.
02:07:01 <fizzie> If you ask Translate to read something out loud with the speaker icon, it reads first with the normal speed, but if you click on the speaker icon a second time, it does a really slowed-down thing.
02:08:02 <fizzie> I assume the idea is, if you (or whoever you're playing the result out) didn't catch it the first time, maybe trying to speak... very... slowly... will help.
02:09:41 <oerjan> i've noticed that, it seems to toggle on each click
02:10:00 <fizzie> Although it resets to normal speed if you change the text.
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02:19:10 <boily> vhellørjan... vhellørjan... it sounds quite nice on the tongue, eh?
02:20:46 <boily> hmm... no. not as good.
02:27:25 <zgrep> virtual hell of chat?
02:28:16 <boily> (no, I won't say it. I like my tongue unknotted tyvm hth)
02:29:19 <zgrep> It's a silent h, no?
02:29:41 <oerjan> maybe. i'm certainly not sure how to pronounce an h without a neighboring vowel.
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06:28:01 <Cale> ah, this is the missing channel :)
06:28:51 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part.
06:30:53 <shachaf> I think that's the only Haskell program left in HackEgo.
06:31:14 <HackEgo> main=putStrLn$(<*>)(++)show"main=putStrLn$(<*>)(++)show"
06:31:33 <shachaf> Does that count as a Haskell program?
06:32:11 <shachaf> I don't even know what to think about type applications.
06:34:09 <shachaf> Can you do e.g. data T where { T :: forall a. T }?
06:34:21 <shachaf> Instead of resorting to Proxy.
06:35:43 <shachaf> Actually, can you do something like (\ @t -> ...)?
06:38:55 <Cale> Apparently we're switching to GHC 8 for our backend.
06:39:21 <Cale> (but I haven't yet tried it)
06:39:56 <Cale> I hear it has a warning when you have redundant type class constraints, which will be really nice in some of the code I work on...)
06:43:38 <shachaf> Time to learn about scones.
06:43:45 <shachaf> Do you have any "scone tips"?
06:44:51 <shachaf> It seems like it sort of defines an equivalence relation with some more structure.
06:45:39 <shachaf> Well, maybe that's a red herring, and the real point of it is the way set elements are mapped.
06:47:41 <lifthrasiir> http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?p=239055
06:48:27 <lifthrasiir> you can burn out (literally) everyone's neural system with 53 points
06:49:47 <oerjan> scones are supersymmetric partners of cones, obviously.
06:50:29 <shachaf> oerjan: i think it stands for "Sierpinski cone" hth
06:51:24 <oerjan> ah, good old sierpiński
06:52:41 <shachaf> lifthrasiir: What's a point worth?
06:53:20 <Cale> shachaf: paper about scones for you, hth http://cheng.staff.shef.ac.uk/misc/cheng-cream.pdf
06:53:53 <lifthrasiir> shachaf: what do you mean? (for the record: I'm really not a GURPS and in general TRPG player so I'm unsure of the specifics)
06:54:19 <shachaf> lifthrasiir: I understand what "burn out everyone's neural system" might mean. But I have no sense for what 53 points is.
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06:54:29 <hppavilion[1]> I have a theory as to where the universe came from- basically, what caused the big bang, in a universe where nothing can't cause something
06:54:49 <lifthrasiir> shachaf: ah, points used to make an ability for players
06:55:02 <hppavilion[1]> My theory goes that there's /another/ universe where the laws of physics allows things to happen without cause
06:55:05 <lifthrasiir> seems that 100 points are required for "normal" characters
06:55:07 <shachaf> lifthrasiir: Is it a lot? Is it a little?
06:55:18 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]'s big bong theory
06:55:22 <hppavilion[1]> And some of the things that can happen without cause are new universes being spawned
06:55:30 <lifthrasiir> and still you are fucked up with that ability
06:55:59 <shachaf> and that's why your makefile is broken
06:56:41 <hppavilion[1]> (it's very annoying that there's no 'x' in "ecstasy"
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07:02:33 <shachaf> contrapumpkin: what a contrarian
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07:07:45 <oerjan> shachaf: be careful or he might challenge you to a dual.
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07:54:09 <mroman> fitbit is getting sued for the heart rate sensor?
07:54:21 <mroman> Why aren't they getting sued for the sleep stuff too
07:54:28 <mroman> the sleep stuff is even more inaccurate .
07:54:33 <lambdabot> int-e said 5d 12h 28m 52s ago: the Burlesque shell is moving to http://64.137.252.151/~burlesque/burlesque.cgi ... and I may need help building the cgi (currently trying...)
07:54:33 <lambdabot> int-e said 5d 12h 9m 50s ago: actually building the cgi seems to have worked fine (a cabal file would help though...) but you can't currently log in; please contact me about that...
07:55:04 <shachaf> oerjan: based on irc activity i suspect that contrapumpkin is self-dual
07:57:56 <mroman> @tell inte-e thx. I updated the link on my homepage.
07:58:04 <mroman> @tell int-e thx. I updated the link on my homepage.
07:58:37 <mroman> that reminds me that the moonpage is still utterly incomplete :(
07:58:50 <mroman> but it's just sooooo muuuch stuff that is still missing.
07:59:15 <mroman> who the fuck decided to make something with 400 builtins that on average each have like 3 variations
07:59:22 <mroman> must've been a total insane moron
07:59:40 <mroman> String a, String b: Appends a to b then reverses.
07:59:47 <mroman> like that was really needed
08:04:40 <mroman> "Authors' Notes: Even though r_ can auto-map this built-in won't do the same expected job because pd will calculate the product of a Block. You may however use this fact as a shortcut for example for {0r_}m[pd. If you want to round every Double to the nearest Integer in a Block use )R_."
08:04:56 <mroman> especially these comments about various usages and nice-to-know thing take a lot of work
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08:05:35 <shachaf> oerjan: how come you didn't specify a quit message that time
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08:10:49 <mroman> oh int-e even pulled the latest changes
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09:10:27 <shachaf> From the Rust changelog: "The time complexity of comparing variables for equivalence during type unification is reduced from O(n!) to O(n). As a result, some programming patterns compile much, much more quickly."
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09:39:06 <mroman> O(n!) to O(n) is quite an optimization indeed
10:01:31 <Taneb> They just worked quieter
10:03:12 <mroman> can I use O(n?) if I'm not sure about how fast it is?
10:03:24 <shachaf> mroman: Presumably n? means zero or one ns.
10:03:25 <izabera> that's the time complexity of regex matching
10:04:02 <mroman> it's at least one n, but it might be up to five ns
10:04:33 <Taneb> shachaf, I finished last week
10:04:46 <mroman> then what's "either 1 times, 3 times, or 5 times"?
10:04:52 <mroman> I thought that's a{1,3,5}
10:05:35 <mroman> I like more powerful regex systems
10:06:07 <shachaf> I like regex systems with intersection and complement.
10:06:42 <izabera> write a regex that matches factorials in unary
10:07:45 <mroman> Regex is almost a fetish .
10:08:17 <izabera> shachaf: not the math kind of regex
10:08:34 <shachaf> Oh, the Perl kind where you can execute arbitrary Perl code?
10:08:58 <izabera> no but you can use backrefs and (?! and (?<! etc
10:09:51 <izabera> the words i was looking for are negative lookahead and lookbehind
10:09:54 <mroman> no that's cheating @arbitrary perl code
10:11:29 <mroman> length of backref etc.
10:11:54 <mroman> that's the non-cheating stuff
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10:15:26 <mroman> what does (?<!ab{2,4}c{3,5}d)test actually do?
10:15:58 <izabera> matches "test", if not preceded by something that matches ab{2,4}c{3,5}d
10:16:17 <fizzie> mroman: Nothing, because it's not legal.
10:16:27 <fizzie> (?<!pattern) -- Works only for fixed-width look-behind.
10:17:10 <HackEgo> Pack's Disdain \ 1B \ Instant \ Choose a creature type. Target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn for each permanent of the chosen type you control. \ MOR-C
10:17:10 <HackEgo> infinitive//Infinitives are atomic verbs. They were first split in the 1940s, and the world hasn't looked back since.
10:17:21 <fizzie> Look-ahead assertions can be arbitrary, but look-behinds are fixed-width only.
10:17:37 <izabera> isn't that more of a bug? <.<
10:18:39 <mroman> can you capturae a lookbehind?
10:18:42 <fizzie> It's a feature of PCRE as well.
10:19:05 <fizzie> I don't think you can capture any of the assertions, since they're not part of the match, but not sure.
10:19:06 <izabera> there's nothing to capture in a /negative/ lookbehind
10:19:08 <fizzie> Certainly not a negative one.
10:19:29 <izabera> if you want a "positive" lookbehind just use (a)b
10:19:42 <fizzie> Then it'd be part of the matched string, though.
10:20:16 <b_jonas> ah yes, a stronger black version of Coordinated Barrage, which goes for any creature, not just an attacking one.
10:20:46 <HackEgo> Jawbone Skulkin \ 1 \ Artifact Creature -- Scarecrow \ 1/1 \ {2}: Target red creature gains haste until end of turn. \ EVE-C
10:21:04 <fizzie> (\K can sort-of do arbitrary positive lookbehind, because it's just adjusting the starting position of the match.)
10:22:28 <fizzie> `` perl -e '"foobar" =~ /(?<=(f..))bar/; print "$1";'
10:22:35 <fizzie> Guess you can capture in a positive one.
10:23:23 <izabera> `` perl -e '"foobar" =~ /(f..)bar/; print "$1";'
10:23:53 <fizzie> `` perl -e '"foobar" =~ /(f..)bar/; print "$1 $&";'
10:23:56 <fizzie> `` perl -e '"foobar" =~ /(f..)\Kbar/; print "$1 $&";'
10:24:32 <fizzie> Possibly much more relevant in a s///.
10:25:11 <fizzie> The perldoc gives s/(foo)bar/$1/g as an example that can be rewritten as "the much more efficient" s/foo\Kbar//g.
10:26:06 <izabera> why is that more efficient?
10:26:18 <fizzie> "For various reasons", to quote the doc.
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10:26:34 <fizzie> "For various reasons "\K" may be significantly more efficient than the equivalent "(?<=...)" construct, --"
10:26:57 <izabera> but you didn't use (?<= <.<
10:27:25 <fizzie> Oh. Well, that's true.
10:27:33 <fizzie> Maybe capturing is expensive.
10:28:03 <fizzie> They don't elaborate -- presumably it's obvious to people privy to the implementation internals.
10:28:35 <fizzie> "The use of "\K" inside of another look-around assertion is allowed, but the behaviour is currently not well defined."
10:28:36 <izabera> i don't really know how perl is implemented but there's no performance difference with regexec
10:30:31 <fizzie> regexec doesn't really do substitution, so that'd depend on what you do after.
10:31:03 <fizzie> It'd be reasonable that s/(foo)bar/$1/g would end up involving copying the "foo" substring where s/foo\Kbar//g would not.
10:31:09 <izabera> yeah but you just get a pointer to the beginning and end of the match
10:32:51 <fizzie> Sure, but you'd need to copy the captures out, then do a whole expand-$1 thing when reconstructing string.
10:33:16 <shachaf> I wish Perl or PCRE used intersection instead of lookaround.
10:33:38 <fizzie> I don't think it's valid per the documentation. It might do *something*.
10:33:40 <izabera> oooh have you seen that video about regex derivatives?
10:34:23 <izabera> a guy at google gave a talk about his regex engine
10:35:04 <izabera> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJOgDovsIsg
10:36:37 <izabera> `` printf '%s\n' ax bcx x cx | grep -P '(?<!a|bc)x'
10:37:30 <fizzie> They don't really specify what happens if it isn't fixed-width.
10:37:41 <izabera> `` printf '%s\n' ax bcx x cx | grep -P '(?<!(a|bc))x'
10:37:43 <HackEgo> grep: lookbehind assertion is not fixed length
10:37:51 <fizzie> Oh, PCRE actually allows that.
10:37:58 <fizzie> "However, if there are several top-level alternatives, they do not all have to have the same fixed length."
10:39:32 <fizzie> Guess it makes sense, since (?<!X|Y|Z) is obviously just (?<!X)(?<!Y)(?<!Z).
10:41:38 <fizzie> `` perl -e 'print join(" ", grep(/(?<!a|bc)x/, qw/ax bcx x cx/));'
10:41:39 <HackEgo> Variable length lookbehind not implemented in regex m/(?<!a|bc)x/ at -e line 1.
11:03:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[VL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=47072 * 82.109.33.252 * (+2579) An esolang loosely based on vim commands.
11:04:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47073&oldid=47070 * 82.109.33.252 * (+9) /* V */
11:05:33 <int-e> mroman: basically I lost all data from the old VM so I built burlesque from the git repo. I also lost your public ssh key.
11:06:36 <fizzie> int-e: Certainly cloud-could-cost couldn't have let you down!
11:07:44 <int-e> fizzie: No, of course not. I had a lot of interesting kernel messages... :P
11:08:56 <int-e> oh the new one had a spontaneous reboot. NICE, keep up the good work.
11:14:44 <int-e> and I had no important data on there; the burlesque shell was/is the most important service running there :P I just should've saved the ssh key and perhaps the cgi executable somewhere else
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11:59:45 <HackEgo> ^͙̬̬̦̯_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞? ¯\(°_o)/¯
12:02:28 <HackEgo> _̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖́̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̈̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ _̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖́̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̈̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞
12:03:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nosomebodies * New user account
12:03:49 <b_jonas> `slashlearn laughed/They laughed when I said I wanted to be a comedian. They're not laughing now!
12:04:22 <Taneb> b_jonas, that sounds quite half baked
12:10:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ANItka]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47074&oldid=47062 * 94.254.242.190 * (+1)
12:13:16 <b_jonas> Taneb: that one is popularly attributed to an English comedian called Bob Monkhouse
12:13:30 <Taneb> I know it from Mezzacotta
12:14:20 <b_jonas> Taneb: yes, it was quoted there, that's the apropos, but still
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12:35:15 <mroman> int-e: everything turned out fine so :)
12:35:21 <mroman> thanks for keeping the shell available
12:35:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Nosomebodies]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=47075 * Nosomebodies * (+1270) Created page with "++++++++++[>+>+++>+++++++>++++++++++<<<<-]>>>--. >+++++++++++. -. <<+++++++++. >>++++++. <<-------. >>. ---------------. +++++++. . <<. >>+. --------. <<. >>++++++++++++++++++..."
12:35:38 <mroman> even though it's probably extremely rarely used :D
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12:56:23 <int-e> mroman: well you can't update it atm... I'd like to give you access again
12:56:52 <mroman> Do you need a public key?
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12:57:58 <mroman> http://codepad.org/RYN4fEsm
13:00:36 <int-e> great, that's all I wanted
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13:01:55 <mroman> you're welcomed to the 5 years burlesque party next year :D
13:25:56 <b_jonas> mroman: there's a party? great
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15:28:54 <mroman> I should try if I can make a redirect from eso.mroman.ch/cgi/burlesque.cgi to the new location of the shell...
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16:52:38 <\oren\> i prefer 3% milk but mcdonalds only has 2%... argh
16:58:57 <Taneb> I want to typedef an array of arrays of pointers to a struct
16:59:02 <Taneb> What on earth is the syntax for that
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17:28:21 <fizzie> Taneb: That's just typedef struct foo *bar[12][34];
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17:28:44 <fizzie> 17:28 <fizzie> ,english typedef struct foo *bar[12][34];
17:28:44 <fizzie> 17:28 <candide> fizzie: Declare `bar` as another name for an array of 12 elements of an array of 34 elements of pointer to a `foo` structure.
17:29:28 <zemhill_> david_werecat.jackal: points 11.81, score 33.25, rank 6/47
17:32:40 <Taneb> fizzie, I think I had something else wrong
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18:53:56 <zemhill_> david_werecat.jackal: points 12.19, score 33.78, rank 4/47 (+2)
18:55:06 <\oren\> typedef struct foo *bar[34][12];
18:56:59 <zemhill_> david_werecat.jackal: points 12.38, score 34.05, rank 4/47 (--)
18:57:08 <\oren\> aaa why would anyone want copying text out of a terminal to keep the formatting?!?!?
18:58:47 <zzo38> Sometimes you might want; possibly other key can indicate to copy ANSI codes for the formatting or not.
18:59:53 <shachaf> \oren\: http://slbkbs.org/structish.txt hth
19:10:13 <\oren\> it doesnt just keep text colors it also keeps the white on black and the font you set
19:11:20 <\oren\> lucky i found the setting to turn that off
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19:26:43 <zzo38> I have received a lot of request in a short time period for the root of my HTTP server, all from curl and from varying IP addresses in the range 24.48.178.* 24.48.179.* 24.48.180.* 24.48.181.* do you know what this is?
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19:34:32 <zzo38> Can I make directory listings on my server to appear different when accessed by wget? When wget accesses a directory listing I want to remove the icons, the parent directory link, and the links for sorting.
19:36:22 <shachaf> zzo38: Yes, you can do it.
19:38:03 <zzo38> What is commands to program in such thing in Apache?
19:39:13 <FreeFull> > (sqrt 3) == 2 * (exp 1) / pi
19:39:33 <lambdabot> (1.7320508075688772,1.7305119588645301)
19:39:48 <FreeFull> I blame floating point inaccuracy
19:39:53 <shachaf> zzo38: Oh, I figured your web server would be written in Visual Basic for Applications, or modified Z-code, or something.
19:40:06 <FreeFull> Oh wait, they diverge way too early for that
19:40:13 <shachaf> I don't know how to make Apache do it. Maybe you have to modify the code.
19:40:31 <shachaf> But you can always write your own program to do directory listing, instead of using the Apache built-in program.
19:44:37 <FreeFull> > (cos (pi/7)) + (cos (3*pi/7)) + cos (5*pi/7)
19:44:59 <FreeFull> This one should be exactly 0.5
19:47:32 <zzo38> I found a bug in SHEGOC when the label of a menu item started with a digit, but I fixed it.
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20:59:03 <\oren\> my server has a program for the directory listing
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21:02:02 <izabera> that's been invented like 50 years ago
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21:11:23 <Taneb> I have, for the first time in my life, written a makefile
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21:30:25 <zzo38> Idea of Magic: the Gathering card like: {?} Creature - ? (0/1) ;; Banding, Rampage 1 ;; All creatures able to block ~ must do so. ;; If ~ attacks, no other bands can attack.
21:49:16 * gamemanj takes a random look at his chat window for the first time in a while
21:51:25 <zzo38> Do you like this kind of cards?
21:52:49 <shachaf> zzo38: I don't think I like banding.
21:52:53 <shachaf> Though I've never played with it.
21:56:05 <zzo38> Banding is pretty good. It is one of the creature keyword abilities I like best.
21:57:32 <zzo38> More tactics can be involved in combat when some cards can have banding then you can decide which bands and so on
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22:02:32 <hppavilion[1]> (Unless, of course, you manage to turn rainbows into lasers)
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22:13:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[VL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47076&oldid=47072 * 31.185.252.84 * (+0) /* Examples */
22:18:37 <nortti> non-high-definition VHDL?
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22:24:19 <\oren\> spacex is launching another F9 right now
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23:33:27 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: One moment, allow me to look up what the F9 key does for the following joke
23:34:56 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I guess they must do a lot of measurement?
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23:37:39 <HackEgo> !\.´ \ advice \ bin \ canary \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ logs \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ ps \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ theorems \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
23:37:39 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: query: not found
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23:43:56 <HackEgo> rødgrød med fløde? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:44:21 <moon_> `learn med is a simple text editor for hackego
23:44:27 <HackEgo> Learned 'med': med is a simple text editor for hackego
23:44:49 <oerjan> `learn med is a simple text editor for HackEgo.
23:44:54 <HackEgo> Relearned 'med': med is a simple text editor for HackEgo.
23:45:14 * oerjan punctuates moon_ with the saucepan ===\__/
23:46:25 * moon_ slimes oerjan with the snail cannon 0== 🐌
23:47:07 <oerjan> moon_: tabs don't transfer well in irc hth
23:47:36 <oerjan> unless you actually used an I with inverted color codes.
23:47:40 <moon_> freenode's builtin irc doesnt allow hackegos
23:48:09 <moon_> i was thinking and typing at the same time, it never ends well
23:48:39 <oerjan> the tunes logs have an actual tab character there.
23:48:55 <moon_> unicode error or me making a cpy-paste wrror
23:49:13 <oerjan> i'm going to assume the latter.
23:49:17 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: "investigate" sounds like some scandal in the stock market
23:49:45 <oerjan> moon_: perhaps the web irc doesn't allow you _typing_ a tab, but still lets you paste one.
23:50:00 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: The interdisciplinary hub of solidity matrices | Ingredients: Hydrogen, time, stevia | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
23:50:28 <shachaf> thinking and typing at the same time is actually known to have positive effects
23:50:46 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: No, you're supposed to think, /then/ type.
23:51:02 <moon_> i type my thoughts sometimes
23:51:06 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well spotted, you may become a punster yet.
23:51:06 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Thinking and typing at the same time doesn't allow you to revise your thoughts before typing
23:51:09 <moon_> i was thinking about hackego then
23:51:45 <moon_> which resulted in: freenode's builtin irc doesnt allow hackegos
23:51:50 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Also, stream-of-consciousness writing goes REALLY badly with certain psychological conditions
23:53:03 <moon_> Yea, that goes nicely
23:53:13 <moon_> replace the ingredients joke with it
23:53:17 <oerjan> moon_: i was assuming you pressed an actual tab, which got tab completed to HackEgo. wait, that doesn't even make sense without the capitalization.
23:53:25 <hppavilion[1]> moon_: It should probably go /with/ the ingredients joke
23:54:12 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part.
23:54:20 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe we should just make the topic "The international hub of esoteric programming", followed by a link to the expanded topic, which would be many thousands of sections long, and would serve in and of itself as a corpus for fungot
23:54:20 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: they say that a sink looks different from high above the water and make them visible. ( bulfinch's mythology, by david gerrold)
23:54:26 <oerjan> `learn_append #esoteric May contain crude drawings of nuts.
23:54:30 <HackEgo> Learned '#esoteric': #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part. May contain crude drawings of nuts.
23:55:13 <HackEgo> U+004E LATIN CAPITAL LETTER N \ UTF-8: 4e UTF-16BE: 004e Decimal: N \ N (n) \ Lowercase: U+006E \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+0055 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U \ UTF-8: 55 UTF-16BE: 0055 Decimal: U \ U (u) \ Lowercase: U+0075 \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+0054 LATIN C
23:55:19 <moon_> `learn_append #esoteric Contains only free ranging moons.
23:55:20 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: The interdisciplinary hub of solidity matrices, esoteric programming language design, and font forging | Ingredients: Hydrogen, time, stevia | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
23:55:22 <HackEgo> Learned '#esoteric': #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part. May contain crude drawings of nuts. Contains only free ranging moons.
23:55:51 <HackEgo> U+1F529 NUT AND BOLT \ UTF-8: f0 9f 94 a9 UTF-16BE: d83ddd29 Decimal: 🔩 \ 🔩 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
23:56:02 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, is this channel primarily prescriptivist or descriptivist?
23:56:10 <fizzie> There's also a CHESTNUT and a DOUGHNUT.
23:56:23 <moon_> both hppavilion[1]
23:56:49 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the expanded topic is just the entire tunes logs hth
23:56:50 <hppavilion[1]> I advise that the channel officially take on the prescriptivist ideology
23:57:32 <hppavilion[1]> (Take note: An actual example of irony, once the s/// is applied)
23:57:53 <moon_> you mean `sed 's/prescriptivist/descriptivist_'
23:58:22 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i'd describe this channel as prescriptivist, but i'd certainly not make it a rule hth
23:58:24 <hppavilion[1]> moon_: No, I just mean s///. s/// is used in conversation on IRC as well as being part of HackEgo
23:58:50 * moon_ slimes hppavilion[1] over proper syntax 0== 🐌 🐌 🐌
23:58:54 <hppavilion[1]> s/x/y/ means "correct whichever message this makes most sense on"
23:59:17 <hppavilion[1]> moon_: Strictly speaking, it's still correct syntax; it just isn't the HackEgo bottrig
23:59:35 <moon_> 🔩 looks like a bolded To
23:59:48 <fizzie> It's a bit iffy to complain about "correct syntax", what with that underline.
00:00:01 <moon_> its used to end the s command
00:00:06 <moon_> it can be other characters
00:00:22 <oerjan> moon_: hm i'm not sure about your addition to #esoteric. my original seemed funny just _because_ it was out of place, so adding more of the same kind diminishes it.
00:01:27 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: The interdisciplinary hub of solidity matrices, esoteric programming language design, and font forging | Ingredients: Antimatter | BOOM! | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
00:03:24 <fizzie> moon_: It can't be "other characters" when the previous two were slashes.
00:03:43 <fizzie> `sed s/prescriptivist/descriptivist_
00:03:45 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 31: unterminated `s' command
00:04:00 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: they say that a bag of, sack: summer passed all too quickly. on the road between hurworth and neasham, but of adjudicating in the kidnappings and raids the inhabitants of the babylonian god of boundaries, guardian of the skin first appears greenish, then the handles at each end, all delicately wrought in the sense that he is married to mehut, a cloven hoof, the samurai. it was the ruthless manner in which they ha
00:04:21 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: does your boss know what you're doing right now. while he was nearly burnt out, and in later times for wicked goblin spirits, as near as might be, eighteen or twenty feet across, and write at cos. the chest was divided into three compartments. in " a wizard can do it, is partially absorbed by the hazards since he has sucker feet and is generally more picturesque than useful.
00:04:32 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: meeting your own ghost!
00:04:37 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: Well, you know what they say: a bag of, sack.
00:05:16 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack* oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
00:06:16 <fizzie> There's a lot of stuff in the data.base.
00:06:28 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part. May contain crude drawings of nuts. Contains only free ranging moons.
00:06:33 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, well I got fizzie's message, so I'm still here
00:06:46 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: There's a limit of four consecutive replies to the same person.
00:07:01 <fizzie> "The Wumpus, by the way, is not bothered by the hazards since he has sucker feet and is too big for a bat to lift."
00:07:30 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: ...please tell me you had to look that up. As in, you don't just have NetHack memorized
00:07:36 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/part/part, but it keeps getting trampled by free ranging moons./;s/ Cont.*//' wisdom/'#esoteric'
00:07:46 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting trampled by free ranging moons.. May contain crude drawings of nuts.
00:08:08 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/\.\./\./' wisdom/'#esoteric'
00:08:17 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting trampled by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts.
00:09:26 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> "sucker feet" made me think lovecraft <-- i'd expect nethack to steal from everywhere...
00:10:27 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Is HackEgo on a new server now? <-- don't ask me
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00:11:16 <moon_> lawn should be garden
00:11:22 <moon_> you cant trample lawns
00:11:29 <fizzie> And no, it's not on a new server.
00:11:34 <oerjan> moon_: no, i can't tell people to get off my garden.
00:11:54 <oerjan> moon_: i'm pretty sure you can.
00:11:55 <fizzie> Usually it's a little bit faster when it's actively being used.
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00:15:42 <moon_> `med rr bin/med 1 3
00:15:54 <moon_> `` med rr bin/med 1 3
00:15:57 <HackEgo> #Rewritten by hand \ #info on lines 2 4 9 15 20 26.. continued on line 2 \ #32 38
00:16:10 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/trampled/digged up/' wisdom/#esoteric
00:16:20 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting digged up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts.
00:17:40 <moon_> `learn_append #esoteric There is a mountain made of shell scripts in the southwestern part.
00:17:43 <HackEgo> Learned '#esoteric': #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting digged up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts. There is a mountain made of shell scripts in the southweste
00:18:39 <oerjan> i think we've exceeded the length limit.
00:19:03 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:19:15 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting digged up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts.
00:19:30 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/digged/dug/' wisdom/#esoteric
00:19:46 <moon_> `learn_append #esoteric There is a mountain made of shell scripts in the south. exit 0
00:19:49 <HackEgo> Learned '#esoteric': #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts. There is a mountain made of shell scripts in the south. exit 0
00:21:06 * oerjan gives up and sidles back to retiring.
00:21:18 <oerjan> moon_: also, get off my lawn!
00:23:04 * oerjan waves his cane O======
00:31:35 <zzo38> On my computer design I have written about "four level mode" which is the intention of working high resolution monochrome mode without having to change all of the clock rates
00:43:50 <\oren\> digged up means that it went uo the page on digg
00:44:15 <\oren\> by the way, is everyone aware that neopets still exists?
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00:49:38 <\oren\> @tell hppavilion[1] I'm overprescriptive myself
00:50:02 <zzo38> I did not expect that it was gone
00:50:19 <zzo38> Therefore, the default position I believe was still exists
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00:51:24 <oerjan> \oren\: digg still exists?
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00:52:06 <HackEgo> t0dd: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
00:52:53 <oerjan> HackEgo: you were fast, but not fast enough
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01:05:19 <zzo38> Is there anything you think you need Internet Quiz Engine to do that it does not currently have? I already have conditional questions, multiple-answers questions, arithmetic operations, multiple variables, and others.
01:06:06 <shachaf> I think it should support free-form answers.
01:07:49 <zzo38> Yes, I did think of that too, although am unsure of how to implement it properly. I did think of a few ideas though.
01:08:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `digg: not found
01:08:06 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: digg: command not found
01:08:33 <zzo38> Clearly there need to be some way to be able to parse free-form answers.
01:11:36 <shachaf> zzo38: Maybe use Amazon Mechanical Turk.
01:13:04 <zzo38> No, it should do by itself.
01:14:02 <zzo38> For example, what kind of calculations does it need to be able to do with the free-form answers?
01:14:56 <shachaf> Number of words, number of letters.
01:16:34 <zzo38> Comparing text with constants also seem one thing that should be done
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05:55:04 <zzo38> Can you show example of how a quiz that is using free-form answers might do?
05:55:38 <shachaf> A question might be "Can you show example of how a quiz that is using free-form answers might do?"
05:56:40 <zzo38> It is unclear how the computer is supposed to score such a question though.
05:58:35 <hppavilion[1]> Is there any equivalent to the DSM-n that documents "psychological disorders" picked up by AIs?
05:58:44 <lambdabot> \oren\ said 5h 9m 5s ago: I'm overprescriptive myself
06:00:31 <zzo38> What would you think of the following: {?} Creature - ? (1/1) ;; Last strike, Lifelink ;; ~ gets +1/+1 for each point of damage marked on it up to eleven.
06:02:27 <shachaf> zzo38: What would happen when that creature combated a 3/3?
06:03:40 <zzo38> Now it has three points of damage marked on it but 4 toughness, and also 4 power so during the last strike step it does enough damage to destroy the 3/3 creature and you gain 4 life.
06:04:09 <zzo38> If the 3/3 creature it is blocking or blocked by has infect or wither then this does not happen, since it won't mark any damage on it.
06:07:05 <zzo38> If the 3/3 creature also has last strike, then this creature is destroyed and you gain 1 life, and the 3/3 creature now has one point of damage marked on it and is not destroyed.
06:08:46 <shachaf> Why is this creature destroyed if the 3/3 has last strike, and not if it has normal strike?
06:09:12 <zzo38> O no wait it is not destroyed; I made a mistake.
06:09:35 <zzo38> However then the 3/3 creature is not destroyed either, and you still gain only 1 life.
06:10:01 <zzo38> It does survive and is now 4/4.
06:10:22 <shachaf> Maybe it should have normal strike instead of last strike.
06:11:13 <zzo38> There is no "normal strike" ability; if it doesn't have first strike or double strike or last strike then it assigns damage during the normal strike step.
06:11:42 <zzo38> Without last strike it is a bit less powerful in most cases I think.
06:13:10 <shachaf> That's what I meant by normal strike.
06:13:24 <shachaf> It's less powerful, but it's still good vs. first-strike creatures.
06:14:10 <zzo38> Yes, I know, it is that; I did think of that, but decided to give it last strike.
06:15:23 <shachaf> But last strike isn't in the rules.
06:15:39 <zzo38> I know; I made up that rule!
06:15:54 <zzo38> (And did write how it interacts with first strike and double strike on the same permanent.)
06:16:53 <zzo38> Another idea is a card that says: State-based actions cannot destroy creatures during combat damage steps unless a card is on the stack.
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06:51:42 <hppavilion[1]> I wonder if I could bloat the GoL into something terrible and sell it on steam xD
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07:35:08 <zzo38> Should the blitter include the ability to load a translation table and to use it? I am not sure if it is worth to include such thing, at all.
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07:52:05 <shachaf> zzo38: Is that a triggered or activated ability?
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10:11:06 <rntz> zzo38: yeah, the timing of that card doesn't work...
10:12:23 <rntz> oh, no, wait, I misread
10:12:47 <rntz> "gets +1/+1 for each point of damage" is a state-based thing, not a triggered ability. ok. that's extremely peculiar.
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11:52:55 <hppavilion[1]> I just asked someone online who wasn't making much sense if they're fungot. I await their utter confusion.
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16:04:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[VL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47077&oldid=47076 * 31.185.252.84 * (+51)
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16:53:49 <fizzie> fungot: Were you the person who wasn't making much sense?
16:53:49 <fungot> fizzie: human, chieftain, guard, ninja, nurse, page, ronin, shopkeeper, you get promoted to demi-god.
16:54:01 <fizzie> That's a nice career path.
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17:28:07 <\oren\> someone threw a chocolate cake in the german parliament
17:28:33 <\oren\> i decided not to inquire for more details
17:30:02 <tswett> b'ahstunls tt hdoto is ldpossthc stttd,ls cavscts s bs j id tesod ap Wh ieihdthdid I thils tf ar thp '
17:31:50 <tswett> b"Th m nn oonsehron eom pran tr L misrlw phund winr ches in nofs of nhns'hon nun nolpofrim tuos of ndr"
17:34:11 <gamemanj> Presumably they thought it would taste better than the usual comedic thrown foodstuff.
17:39:31 <tswett> b'Th tts toes6thtubrrtesspoothived i mouthumetsisatht, tiatioss whtr tyiniuloretapedtithrics. Itzrensu'
17:43:49 <tswett> It doesn't mean anything.
17:44:13 <gamemanj> ...it has ". ", it has a sentence structure, there's a particular use of capital letters. Are you sure?
17:45:59 <gamemanj> Though I do admit a toes6thtubrrtesspoothived is a bit of a long word.
17:48:48 <tswett> And it has a numeral in it, which real words generally don't.
17:49:18 <tswett> Here, let's have a better one.
17:49:19 <tswett> b'To pooitas apitaie aul Weakiome aioui goatiagionauateon. Chiter tinmeoucioveany oi meo, orined Mouna'
18:01:01 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:02:01 <tswett> b'Thated top el to te a cter of Wis to tonts Aexper. It ted (oved itto te than nxlo tovt cter Norton J'
18:04:39 <tswett> Ooh, it's starting to get some really good words in there.
18:04:40 <tswett> b'Tex in icwuites the toll, ovel whevexpected to the kingdom s Ituresp. the Kizyingerne, haves Mit te '
18:07:37 <tswett> b'The Therexpectuitee Fist.avhas oo decfuiteoacteretooee tollboothetteralomeations an Wistomes full of'
18:07:47 <tswett> I wonder what tollboothetteralomeations are.
18:08:35 <tswett> Output from a neural net trained to output character strings.
18:08:39 <tswett> b"The to the book the to the book is a lo e chev noppeon the 'ook was boothoed iat, Tany eventorestes "
18:08:52 <tswett> The training data is the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article about the book "The Phantom Tollbooth".
18:10:28 <tswett> Ooh, I think this is the first time it successfully reproduced the first couple of words:
18:10:29 <tswett> b'The Phantom Tollbooth one afternoon and, hovhan attoec Mted) of Oeastrens Thed Moto ctor now pons Al'
18:10:32 <gamemanj> once upon a time someone was going down a road, which had no tollbooth... then a tollbooth appeared and charged them money
18:13:40 <ais523> tswett: that's not a lot of training data
18:13:52 <tswett> Indeed, that's an extremely small amount of training data.
18:14:08 <tswett> Though, the first training data I ever successfully used was:
18:14:26 <tswett> b'The Phere is ted into many The Kell tr the konderful Wirl, it tells The Woo sel, it ral to the kio s'
18:14:35 <tswett> It's like... it's like it's trying to say something.
18:15:36 <tswett> b"Thetoovres stortofo to Concl to m. Itur's into Thar,s rovhoust to thansports him toy Poop and has so"
18:15:43 <tswett> It's not very nice to thansport someone toy Poop.
18:16:07 <tswett> b'The Will and gas wold onte the o dd Fdlatin ixs and gextextextextextextexpected inte aptor nov itve'
18:16:36 <tswett> That's not the word I extextextextextextexpected it to use.
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18:20:40 <tswett> Ooh, it managed to reproduce a pretty long section verbatim.
18:20:41 <tswett> b'The Phe text is full of puns and wordplay; many events, such as when Milo unintenn wrer whine aftern'
18:21:15 <tswett> Most of that is a verbatim quote: "[T]he text is full of puns and wordplay; many events, such as when Milo uninten[tionally ...]"
18:22:43 <tswett> Here it almost reproduced the first 100 bytes of the whole thing:
18:22:44 <tswett> b"The Phantom Tollbooth is a 1961 children's adventure novel by American writer Norton Juster Nills an"
18:23:10 <tswett> Correct quote: "The Phantom Tollbooth is a 1961 children's adventure novel by American writer Norton Juster [with illustrations ...]"
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18:38:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Evil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47078&oldid=46809 * 90.255.15.157 * (+1) Fixed spelling mistake - 'wave function' -> 'weave function'
18:55:34 <fizzie> If your goal is to learn English in general, I fear you might be overfitting a bit.
18:56:12 <fizzie> http://karpathy.github.io/2015/05/21/rnn-effectiveness/ did a bit of Wikipedia markup.
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19:26:22 <tswett> fizzie: but if my goal is to learn this exact paragraph, I'm not overfitting at all!
19:28:53 <tswett> I think it's fair to say that the neural net has successfully memorized the entire paragraph.
19:29:03 <tswett> Which is slightly impressive.
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19:31:03 <tswett> Lemme see. The paragraph is 1114 bytes, 51 distinct. This means that, naively encoded, the number of bits of information there is...
19:31:09 <tswett> > 1114 * log 51 / log 2
19:33:38 <fizzie> And how many parameters are there in your model?
19:34:17 <tswett> The neural net has an input layer with effectively 51 neurons (no parameters); a hidden layer with 50 neurons (effectively (51+1)*50 parameters); another hidden layer with 50 neurons ((50+1)*50 parameters); and finally an output layer with effectively 51 neurons (effectively (50+1)*51 parameters).
19:34:30 <tswett> Actually, I'm not sure if the output layer has biases.
19:34:48 <tswett> So the number of effective parameters is...
19:35:01 <tswett> > (51+1)*50 + (50+1)*50 + (50+1)*51
19:35:09 <shachaf> Is there a word other than "neuron" to describe the sizes of the vectors?
19:35:30 <shachaf> n-dimensional hidden layer?
19:36:11 <gamemanj> and now for your complex term of the day: n-dimensional mathematical numpy-supported matrices supported on a large hardware platform.
19:36:12 <shachaf> Well, I'm not a fan of the word "hidden" either, but at least it's not forcing a biological analogy.
19:37:06 <tswett> It is, in fact, accurate to say that these are "n-dimensional mathematical numpy-supported matrices".
19:37:27 <tswett> And they are, in a sense, "supported on a large hardware platform", because this is running on my laptop, and my laptop is physically large.
19:38:20 <shachaf> I asked the other day: How much justification is there to Tensorflow et al.'s use of the word "tensor"?
19:38:46 <shachaf> Are these things tensors in the usual sense, with covariance/contravariance, multilinear maps, etc.?
19:40:00 <fizzie> shachaf: RNN elements are conventionally called "cells".
19:41:07 <tswett> shachaf: they can be used that way.
19:41:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Emmental]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47079&oldid=35639 * 96.48.108.186 * (+231) /* Hello, World! */ Added easier to understand example
19:41:30 <tswett> A "tensor" in Tensorflow is the tensor product of some copies of R^n, for varying n.
19:42:04 <gamemanj> tswett: I like to be correct while also being stupidly verbose
19:42:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47080&oldid=47071 * Ais523 * (-13) Undo revision 47051 by [[Special:Contributions/Moon|Moon]] ([[User talk:Moon|talk]]); as mentioned in the intro, redlinks are removed from this list if they stay red too long
19:42:28 <tswett> In other words, it's a multidimensional array.
19:42:43 <shachaf> I don't think a tensor is just a multidimensional array.
19:45:05 <fizzie> Also, if the "et al." is large enough, there's no need for justification.
19:48:49 <fizzie> If you don't want to use the word "neuron", it's possible to just say "the size of the layer is X".
19:48:57 <fizzie> I saw TensorBoard for the first time the other day.
19:50:12 <shachaf> fizzie: I don't think it's too large.
19:51:22 <shachaf> And if all of these libraries used "vector" to mean "scalar", I would still want justification, because their usage is in the context of the rest of the world.
19:52:16 <fizzie> Yes, well, I was including rest of the world in the et al., possibly.
19:52:18 <tswett> A tensor is certainly not just a multidimensional array.
19:57:07 <tswett> > map (\n -> 2 * 10 ** (1/n)) [0..6]
19:57:09 <lambdabot> [Infinity,20.0,6.324555320336759,4.308869380063768,3.5565588200778455,3.1697...
19:57:26 <tswett> > map (\n -> 2 * 10 ** (n/6)) [0..6]
19:57:28 <lambdabot> [2.0,2.935598535244139,4.308869380063768,6.324555320336759,9.283177667225557...
19:58:04 <tswett> > map (\n -> round $ 100 * 10 ** (n/6)) [0..6]
19:59:25 <tswett> > map (\n -> round $ 96 * 10 ** (n/6)) [0..6]
19:59:45 <tswett> > map (\n -> round $ 98 * 10 ** (n/6)) [0..6]
20:02:29 <tswett> > let blah = [10.0, 15, 20, 30, 50, 70, 100, 150, 200, 300, 500, 700, 1000] in zipWith (/) (tail blah) blah
20:02:31 <lambdabot> [1.5,1.3333333333333333,1.5,1.6666666666666667,1.4,1.4285714285714286,1.5,1....
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20:41:57 <zzo38> I do not yet know what my new kind of computer design is called.
20:42:33 <zzo38> To know what it is called can help with discussion elsewhere, with naming programs that do emulation or hardware implementation of parts of it, etc.
20:42:48 <ais523> do you think it already has a name and you don't know what it is? or is it something that doesn't have a naem yet and you haven't named it?
20:43:34 <ais523> gamemanj: I didn't even realise that wasn't part of this conversation :-P
20:43:56 <int-e> fungot: kitten kitten kitten?
20:43:56 <fungot> int-e: they say that if you start at the man fled, clutching his bulging guts, finally to fall from his throat; the drunk vomited lumps of human flesh. ( the fellowship of the english puritans regarded all fairies as devils. the couatl are very sharp; watch you don't usually mind if you need a mirror to notice a mimic in an ideal existence, drinking and eating without restraint and fighting over again the battles in which he ca
20:44:04 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack* oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
20:44:24 <zzo38> ais523: I think that it does not yet have a proper name.
20:44:39 <zzo38> That is why I obviously do not know what the name is!
20:44:44 <zzo38> Because there isn't one!
20:49:06 <int-e> the free kitten refuses to be bound to any particular channel
20:49:25 <gamemanj> yes, let's worship the great kitten
20:56:45 <zzo38> I had some ideas about the main processor's microcode which are a bit similar to some of the features of VAX microcode, such as huge VLIW, every instruction contains a jump (actually two in the design I have thought of), and XFC.
21:00:12 <zzo38> The microcode would include ROM and RAM areas, and you can define your own instructions in the RAM area.
21:04:33 <zzo38> It is a kind of horizontal microcode format, and some of the pieces of a microcode instruction might be: register numbers for the Muxcomp inputs/outputs, ALU code, external memory I/O code, condition code, jump if true, jump if false.
21:05:59 <zzo38> If it is muxcomp32 then seven register must be specify for muxcomp, and some registers might be immediate values, constants, and external memory access.
21:10:46 -!- Moon_ has joined.
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21:18:23 <Moon_> > zip [1,4..] [1,6..]
21:18:25 <lambdabot> [(1,1),(4,6),(7,11),(10,16),(13,21),(16,26),(19,31),(22,36),(25,41),(28,46),...
21:19:16 <Moon_> `echo > zip [1,4..] [1,6..]
21:19:24 <Moon_> `echo '> zip [1,4..] [1,6..]'
21:21:08 <Moon_> > zip "Im being ziped!" "!depiz gnieb mI"
21:21:10 <lambdabot> [('I','!'),('m','d'),(' ','e'),('b','p'),('e','i'),('i','z'),('n',' '),('g',...
21:22:24 <shachaf> please use /msg unless you're showing something to others
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21:36:26 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: apt: not found
21:36:57 <HackEgo> [1;24r[0;10m[4l[?7h[39;49m[?1000h[?25l[?1c[39;49m[0;10m[H[J[24d[0;10;1m[37m[41m[J[H[37m[44m Actions Undo Package Resolver Search Options Views Help[K
21:39:15 <Moon_> i wonder, some linux distros have the 'lolcat' command, does hackego have it?
21:39:21 <HackEgo> Today is Pungenday, the 2nd day of Confusion in the YOLD 3182
21:39:22 <Moon_> lets try that first
21:39:40 <HackEgo> usage: ddate [+format] [day month year]
21:39:50 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: lolcat: command not found
21:40:23 <gamemanj> wait a second... *opens up Twister*
21:40:28 <myname> you should learn about it
21:40:33 <myname> discordianism,is great
21:40:53 <gamemanj> attempting to identify @tasty...
21:41:33 <Moon_> lolcat rainbow colors its input, myname
21:41:56 <Moon_> ah well, time to make a irc version *jokes*
21:42:03 <HackEgo> Today is Pungenday, the 2nd day of Confusion in the YOLD 3182
21:42:20 <fizzie> Well, it's a bit fancier.
21:42:29 <Moon_> yea, lolcat is much fancier
21:42:36 <HackEgo> Moon_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
21:42:47 <Moon_> im already a known member -.-
21:42:49 <fizzie> Uses the 256-color control codes and all that.
21:43:13 <myname> why do you do that stuff, then?
21:43:30 <Moon_> because im bored :P
21:43:39 <Moon_> but i am a known member
21:44:29 <fizzie> I don't think "member" is the right word for anyone here.
21:45:47 <zzo38> I have written a Discordian calendar program on ifMUD too
21:49:54 <fizzie> Whether ddate should or shouldn't be part of util-linux on Debian was a long, long debate. From what I recall, it got removed at least once, and maybe reinstated or split to a separate package.
21:49:57 <zzo38> I think there is actually two versions of Discordian calendar, which are the common version (which is synchronized with the Gregorian calendar), and the uncommon version (which is synchronized with the Julian calendar); however there is currently no difference between them, I think they would start to differ in 2100 maybe.
21:53:55 <fizzie> Is that just because Principia Discordia says "every four years"?
21:56:08 <nortti> but seeing as it is otherwise synchronised one-to-one with the gregorian calendar, discordian-with-gregorian-leps
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22:03:23 <zzo38> I think ddate probably should not be the part of the core package but probably should be another package.
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22:06:46 <ais523> zzo38: it isn't part of the Ubuntu package it used to be in (which contained fsck and similar programs, IIRC) any more
22:07:03 <ais523> gamemanj: it was in a package of important Linux utilities, many of which most systems will use
22:07:08 <ais523> I think fsck was the most famous
22:07:10 <gamemanj> bash: ddate: command not found
22:07:13 <ais523> not sure, there might be an even more famous one
22:09:07 <gamemanj> it apparently used to be in util-linux,
22:09:11 <gamemanj> but isn't built anymore by default.
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22:21:11 <fizzie> That's what I was referring to.
22:23:25 <fizzie> 1998: Bug#30015: util-linux: please include ddate
22:23:36 <fizzie> 2010: Bug#583503: ddate: this useless joke program has no place in a base debian install.
22:23:50 <fizzie> 2012: Bug#583503: ddate, upstream, and debian.
22:23:56 <fizzie> 2014: Bug#583503: ddate no longer shipped in upstream release v2.24.2.
22:24:14 <gamemanj> a quick look at wikipedia reveals something interesting...
22:24:54 <fizzie> Those weren't even all the titles.
22:25:00 <gamemanj> ddate: removed from default build by the same people who brought you: "tunelp: parallel port printers are probably almost extinct devices"
22:26:08 <fizzie> I have a vague recollection they must've flip-flopped on its inclusion at least once, before it ended up in a separate 'ddate' package.
22:27:16 <gamemanj> I'm a tad worried that a package for various utilities is being committed to by someone who intends to strip down the commands... isn't that the point of busybox?
22:28:07 <fizzie> Well, the reasonable argument was that it's not a package of "various utilities", it's a package of things you absolutely need to have available.
22:29:17 <zzo38> I think ddate should be a separate package, such as "comprehensive date/time package" which may include that and others
22:29:39 <gamemanj> ...such as "wall" (good to have on mainframes maybe), "script" (eh could be useful) , "ul" (ok who needs this)
22:29:40 <zzo38> Alternatively, a package by itself, is another possibility
22:30:29 <gamemanj> all 3 of those, wall, script and ul have man pages on my system, and ul especially seems particularly useless. If the "things that are required to be available" is the point, then it would be a lot smaller
22:30:48 <fizzie> ul is not in util-linux on my system.
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22:31:02 <fizzie> Neither is 'wall' or 'script'.
22:31:02 <int-e> script can be useful for documentation purposes
22:31:17 <zzo38> The program "wall" could be useful on multi-user systems, although for single-user system does not seem so useful.
22:31:26 <fizzie> script's part of the Debian upgrade process documentation.
22:31:41 <zzo38> (But still, someone might use wall for some purpose even in a single-user system)
22:31:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:32:07 <gamemanj> Ok, fair enough, but tunelp presumably has a similar basis.
22:32:10 <int-e> oh yeah, good old wall/write/talk/mesg
22:32:22 <gamemanj> The point is: where to draw the line?
22:32:28 <zzo38> Yes, on multi-user systems, those programs can be useful.
22:32:32 <fizzie> gamemanj: Somewhere south of ddate, probably.
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22:32:47 <int-e> gamemanj: in the case of ul, right under the text...
22:32:51 <tswett> Now I'm training my neural net on #esoteric logs again.
22:33:03 <zzo38> A separate package for programs that are useful for multi-user could be added if someone wants this, I suppose.
22:33:05 <gamemanj> Well, I guess it doesn't make any sense to include ddate but not date.
22:33:26 <tswett> Here's a quote from it:
22:33:27 <tswett> hd cu#8rin84cde3!i aNenei r s
22:33:28 <zzo38> I think date is supposed to be core
22:33:33 <int-e> I've never used ddate... I didn't even know that it exists.
22:33:45 <fizzie> I used to have a ddate login script, I think.
22:33:47 <int-e> so... "objectively" the latter is not needed.
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22:33:49 <fizzie> It's been a while, though.
22:34:16 <int-e> it's hard to draw hard lines
22:34:32 <fizzie> int-e: Yes, I think Debian should switch to a probabilistic package manager.
22:34:35 <gamemanj> To me, it seems that ddate is just another date format and makes more sense as a part of date.
22:34:46 <int-e> but I think date and ddate are rahter obvious choices ;)
22:34:58 <int-e> fizzie: you scare me
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22:35:27 <gamemanj> As for date, it's not even part of util-linux (it's part of coreutils), so ddate, being another date format, should be there.
22:35:38 * int-e learned last week that there are several flavors of netcat.
22:35:45 <zzo38> I think it is rather a different calendar rather than just a different output format
22:36:24 <int-e> so that's another dimensions: if there are several variants of a tool, which one will you include?
22:36:38 <fizzie> The netcat variants are a big annoyance.
22:36:44 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:36:48 <int-e> hmm, dates... I should buy some dried dates...
22:36:51 <zzo38> Are you going to include Mayan calendar too, and also Muslim, and whatever others?
22:36:57 <myname> the bsd one, the gnu one, the others
22:36:58 <fizzie> At least there's only one socat. (Which hasn't been enough of a draw to learn the socat syntax.)
22:37:51 <int-e> gamemanj: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_%28fruit%29
22:37:53 -!- ais523 has joined.
22:38:09 <myname> for a moment i thought socat is some useless thing to interact with stackoverflow
22:38:24 <tswett> Dates are dates? That's not true at all.
22:38:29 * int-e should look into socat too
22:38:44 <tswett> "Datetime" means something different in every programming language.
22:38:52 <fizzie> The thing that spews out those wiki updates is almost all socat.
22:39:20 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:39:21 <int-e> Oh is "socat" a pun? ... meh.
22:39:35 <int-e> ess-oh-cat... socket
22:40:14 <fizzie> "SOcket CAT", it just says.
22:42:17 <int-e> fizzie: I guess my question is how one is supposed to pronounce it.
22:42:33 <fizzie> I don't rightly know, I think I've always just written it.
22:42:38 <fizzie> Bleh. rdiff-backup ran out of memory again. For some reason it just does that; then the system starts swapping and the backup takes two days or something ridiculous.
22:46:19 <fizzie> It's a relatively extensive set of files (3582083 used inodes on the filesystem, and it's a large chunck of that), but from what I gather, it's still supposed to only take a reasonable amount of memory, and seems to do just that for most people. Someone else was complaining of excessive memory use as well, but I don't think that thread ever resolved.
22:48:10 <fizzie> "If rdiff-backup seems to be leaking memory, it is probably because it is using an early version of librsync. librsync 0.9.5 leaks lots of memory. Later versions should not leak and are available from the librsync homepage."
22:48:44 <fizzie> But this is 0.9.7, and shouldn't have such problems, so who knows.
22:49:00 <fizzie> "The amount of memory rdiff-backup uses should not depend much on the size of directories being processed. Keeping track of hard links may use up memory, so if you have, say, hundreds of thousands of files hard linked together, rdiff-backup may need tens of MB."
22:49:39 <fizzie> Shouldn't be many of those, and it's at three hundred megs (out of ~400-ish or so).
22:50:03 <tswett> 0.:32:26: -!- iacht5 ion1nhndonul7gviin ao1ar ridl
22:51:00 <fizzie> Hmm. It's got a built-in _librsync.so.
22:51:09 <fizzie> (rdiff-backup itself is mostly Python.)
22:53:20 <fizzie> I think that must be just some Python glue to call into the real one, because the package is listed as depending on librsync1.
22:53:52 <int-e> ldd .../_librsync.so ?
22:55:34 <fizzie> So it shouldn't be due to that.
22:56:40 <fizzie> Don't suppose there's any way to ask a running Python process for a memory use summary or something.
22:57:51 <tswett> Ooh, the neural net has learned a nick... kinda.
22:57:52 <tswett> c2 cl:12:22: <his52 > am1yms c a,gi t7on an2sn rucarc n niraao h gota> hom c l'itnannor3a
22:58:52 <fizzie> Manages to match the tone of the channel pretty well, too.
22:59:20 <gamemanj> I thought only I used C2/CL time!
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23:10:25 <fizzie> http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/ looks like tomorrow's weather is very XMLy.
23:11:31 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/hiaT is how it appears to me.
23:11:52 <gamemanj> You're looking at an RSS feed, somehow.
23:12:03 <fizzie> Well, that's what I get as the front page.
23:12:03 <int-e> look at the first line: 2000<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
23:12:36 <gamemanj> fizzie: Which entry do you want to see?
23:12:41 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/LfUa
23:12:56 <fizzie> I had my normal forecast link in the browser history, that worked just fine.
23:13:02 <fizzie> It's only the front page that appears strange.
23:13:18 <int-e> so akamai messed up?
23:13:56 <Phantom__Hoover> here, what do you call a program that unpacks itself into more programs
23:13:59 <int-e> www.metoffice.gov.uk. 842 IN CNAME www.metoffice.gov.uk.edgesuite.net.
23:14:10 <int-e> (and it looks fine from here)
23:14:19 <tswett> 20:44:18: -E- rodgort has qoin jokoet nesoq)af quine(k ne uorirdaie8:one natoEam9pat
23:14:41 <fizzie> 2.21.75.40, 2.21.75.10 what it eventually resolves as to me.
23:14:42 <int-e> gamemanj: you do know what a CDN is, don't you?
23:14:50 <fizzie> How about curl -s -H 'Host: www.metoffice.gov.uk' http://2.21.75.40/ | head =
23:15:19 <fizzie> (www.metoffice.gov.uk.edgesuite.net is an alias for a376.r.akamai.net, a376.r.akamai.net has address 2.21.75.40 / 2.21.75.10)
23:15:24 <int-e> fizzie: yeah that gives me the paste
23:15:33 <gamemanj> a CDN is a bunch of servers people pay lots of money to use, which have a lot of bandwidth available.
23:15:37 <int-e> including the initial 2000, which I still find rather odd
23:15:57 <gamemanj> They are generally meant for delivering vast amounts of static resources.
23:16:08 <fizzie> int-e: There's a bunch of numbers later on as well.
23:16:11 <int-e> gamemanj: unless you're somebody like Google or Amazon who's running their own CDN.
23:16:26 <fizzie> int-e: Right in the middle of the content. I suspect some sort of a length-delimited format.
23:17:10 <fizzie> Or possibly debugging output or something, who knows.
23:19:22 <int-e> so http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/datapoint/support/notifications/rss is the original link for that... no numbers though
23:20:32 <zzo38> I now made the JavaScript implementation of Internet Quiz Engine so that if you write #<INQUIZJS>BEGIN and #<INQUIZJS>SHUFFLE around some lines then those lines will be shuffled in the output. An implementation that doesn't support this will treat these lines as comments and display the text without shuffling; the #< indicates extensions which are safe to ignore.
23:20:37 <fizzie> int-e: The next "\r\n2000\r\n" is exactly 0x2000 bytes after the first one.
23:22:33 <fizzie> Actually, isn't that just https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chunked_transfer_encoding
23:22:55 <fizzie> Except missing the \r\n after the initial chunk length indicator.
23:23:41 <fizzie> (No Transfer-Encoding header either.)
23:23:48 <pikhq> Yes, that's basically chunked transfer encoding getting botched.
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23:37:53 <fizzie> Found something called "gdb-heap" for unplanned memory debugging -- https://fedorahosted.org/gdb-heap/ -- but I'm worried the memory debugging tool will run out of memory.
23:39:01 <fizzie> (It prints "Blocks retrieved 150000" etc. after every 10k blocks, and swaps a whole lot.)
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23:42:04 <fizzie> Up to 380000. That's a lotta allocations.
23:42:40 <gamemanj> why can't people just use static allocations...
23:44:14 <Phantom__Hoover> gamemanj, because sometimes you don't know how much memory you'll need at compile time??
23:44:37 <fizzie> Yeah, the gdb process is now using almost twice as much memory as the rdiff-backup.
23:44:52 <fizzie> It's also at 590000 blocks.
23:45:05 <pikhq> It's not unusual for static allocation to be insufficient.
23:45:27 <pikhq> That said, I also think a lot of people end up using dynamic allocation when static allocation would suffice.
23:45:34 <pikhq> Or overusing dynamic allocation.
23:51:19 <int-e> oh wow, programs compiled with ghc-8.0.1 have a virtual memory size of 1 TB on startup (x86_64 linux)... even when most of that memory is unused, that seems overly generous.
23:51:51 <tswett> All right, here's the first completely well-formed thing produced by my new neural net:
23:51:52 <tswett> 09:01:26: <FiCe> his fhrtunn pikGr
23:52:38 <fizzie> http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.sysutils.backup.rdiff-backup.general/7878 -- I assume I'm hitting the same thing, but nobody's answered. :/
23:54:49 <fizzie> "FWIW, I used to use rdiff-backup but found it to be nonrobust on machines with limited (only a few GB) RAM and hundreds of GB of backup."
23:54:52 <fizzie> Should probably switch tools.
00:02:30 <gamemanj> int-e: "overtly generous"... seems an understatement
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00:12:32 <zzo38> I started writing a document in TeX to describe Z-machine specification; my document is in the public domain and aims to be complete. Currently only the contents of the header and extension table are described.
00:12:41 <zzo38> (Except that TWID is not yet described.)
00:12:56 <tswett> 04:50:17:44:54:58:49:04:09:04:55:34:47:52:25: <!arg7@w>| ofh mrsL /he hocercd Tped- #o-tc: h3s has joan Heey piteuuc'teasu(ttou
00:18:14 <zzo38> Can someone be Zen Pagan Atheist Taoist Discordian?
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01:01:07 -!- oerjan has set topic: The interdisciplinary hub of solidity matrices, esoteric programming language design, and font forging | Ingredients: Neutronium | Still BOOM! | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
01:02:40 <oerjan> in fact, considering it was the immediate prerequisite.
01:04:38 <int-e> so it's about rejected kittens now
01:05:25 -!- oerjan has set topic: The interdisciplinary hub of solidity matrices, esoteric programming language design, and font forging | Ingredients: Neutronium kittens | Still BOOM! | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
01:09:24 * int-e purrs demonstratively
01:09:36 <int-e> my work here is done, good night!
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01:20:32 <oerjan> `le/rn member/I'm sorry, #esoteric has regulars, not members. Who told you about members? There are definitely no members here, and you wouldn't be allowed to know about them, anyway.
01:38:04 <tswett> `learn A pokemon is a monster that you keep in your pocket.
01:38:10 <HackEgo> Learned 'pokemon': A pokemon is a monster that you keep in your pocket.
01:39:32 <tswett> 38:57:32: -!- necn arcif) ssa wo orecabsot Hascotin) to has joined #esoteric
01:39:37 <tswett> Man, this thing could be better.
01:40:17 <oerjan> tswett: you know that's the actual etymology, right?
01:40:37 <shachaf> oerjan: what are you implying about the wisdom database hth
01:40:56 <tswett> But "monster that you keep in your pocket" is a pretty bad description of Pokemon.
01:41:10 <oerjan> shachaf: look, unicorns!
01:41:30 <shachaf> I guess you'd prefer wisdom to have itymologies rather than etymologies.
01:41:35 <oerjan> also that's a really bad spot to put a hth hth
01:42:07 <oerjan> shachaf: sorry, that was last generation, now we're upgrading to ichtymologies hth
01:42:16 <shachaf> oerjan: but that would've been a really good spot to put a tdnh tdnh
01:43:23 <shachaf> that would have helped hungry hungry hippos
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01:43:52 <HackEgo> Ichtymology is like itymology, but even more fishy.
01:43:52 <HackEgo> cat: bin/nooodl: No such file or directory
01:43:58 <HackEgo> cat: bin/noodl: No such file or directory
01:44:10 <HackEgo> His Master's Phonetic Hmph
01:44:11 <HackEgo> perl -pe 's/([Nn])ooodl/"$1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
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01:46:29 <oerjan> `mkx bin/rnooodl//perl -pe 's/(.)\1\1/"@{[$1 x(3+rand 7)]}"/ge'
01:46:31 <lambdabot> *** "ichthyology" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
01:46:31 <lambdabot> n 1: the branch of zoology that studies fishes
01:47:00 <oerjan> `` echo "yaaaaaaaaaaay"
01:47:26 <oerjan> shachaf: long time temptation hth
01:47:48 <shachaf> `` rgrep -lP '(.)\1\1' wisdom
01:47:50 <HackEgo> wisdom/haskell \ wisdom/hand injuries \ wisdom/superexponential growth \ wisdom/nooooooooodle \ wisdom/xkcq \ wisdom/spam \ wisdom/hthmonoid \ wisdom/hagb4rd \ wisdom/yeeeeeeeeesh \ wisdom/ievan \ wisdom/glass \ wisdom/\oren\ \ wisdom/yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh \ wisdom/sssssstosis \ wisdom/homestuck \ wisdom/wwwww \ wisdom/submarine \ wisdom/zkstr \ wis
01:47:57 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
01:48:08 <shachaf> oerjan: might be a good idea to rule out spaces hth
01:48:45 <HackEgo> Hand injuries are surprisingly common among webcomic writers, see eg. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2314 or http://wwwww.giantitp.com/comics/oots0864.html
01:48:52 <shachaf> `? superexponential growth
01:48:55 <HackEgo> Superexponential growth? SUPEREXPONENTIAL GROWTH?! HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!
01:49:05 <HackEgo> hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids ...
01:49:57 <oerjan> `mkx bin/rnooodl//perl -pe 's/(\w)\1\1/"@{[$1 x(3+rand 7)]}"/ge'
01:50:30 <oerjan> `` rgrep -lP '(.)\1\1' wisdom
01:50:32 <HackEgo> wisdom/haskell \ wisdom/hand injuries \ wisdom/superexponential growth \ wisdom/nooooooodle \ wisdom/xkcq \ wisdom/spam \ wisdom/hthmonoid \ wisdom/hagb4rd \ wisdom/yeeeeeeeesh \ wisdom/ievan \ wisdom/glass \ wisdom/\oren\ \ wisdom/yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh \ wisdom/ssssssstosis \ wisdom/homestuck \ wisdom/wwwwwww \ wisdom/submarine \ wisdom/zkstr \ w
01:52:21 <oerjan> . o O ( _maybe_ exclude w )
01:53:33 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
01:53:42 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
01:59:15 <tswett> So here's another neural net message...
01:59:15 <tswett> 16:54:42: <oerjan> is on wheterr? shP or at corn bor bevluntere antynn has joined #edoteric.
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02:04:57 <oerjan> tswett: that's lousy, it doesn't even add an acronym tdnh
02:05:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Emmental]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47081&oldid=47079 * 96.48.108.186 * (+88) /* Cat program */
02:11:24 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> oh wow, programs compiled with ghc-8.0.1 have a virtual memory size of 1 TB on startup (x86_64 linux)... even when most of that memory is unused, that seems overly generous. <-- iirc the point is to _never_ allocate more than once so that there is no need to consider address fragmentation.
02:13:51 <tswett> 1 terabyte seems pretty small for that purpose.
02:14:02 <tswett> Like, what if I want to memory-map both of my 3 terabyte hard drives?
02:14:45 <oerjan> um those would be separate.
02:15:08 <oerjan> i mean that the normal ghc heap is one, singly allocated address block.
02:16:35 <tswett> Oh yeah... so this 1 TB thing is talknig about the heap only, not any memory-mapped stuff?
02:17:07 <oerjan> well i don't think ghc does any other automatically, but i guess any ffi may do that.
02:18:43 <shachaf> `` rgrep -lP '(\w)\1\1' wisdom
02:18:46 <HackEgo> wisdom/hand injuries \ wisdom/noooooodle \ wisdom/xkcq \ wisdom/spam \ wisdom/hagb4rd \ wisdom/yeeeeeeeeeesh \ wisdom/ievan \ wisdom/glass \ wisdom/yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh \ wisdom/ssstosis \ wisdom/homestuck \ wisdom/wwwwwww \ wisdom/zkstr \ wisdom/yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh \ wisdom/oren's font \ wisdom/ioccccccclist \ wisdom/llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychw
02:19:05 <HackEgo> iocccclist is update notification for when a new year of the International Obfuscated Contest is announced, or the winners for a year is announced, or the source codes of winners are released. http://wwwwww.iocccccc.org/#news
02:19:21 <shachaf> `` rgrep -lP '([^w\W])\1\1' wisdom
02:19:23 <HackEgo> wisdom/noooodle \ wisdom/xkcq \ wisdom/hagb4rd \ wisdom/yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh \ wisdom/yeeeeeeeeeeeeesh \ wisdom/ssssssssstosis \ wisdom/www \ wisdom/yeeeeeeeeeeeesh \ wisdom/ioccccccccclist \ wisdom/llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwlllllllllantysiliogogogoch \ wisdom/yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh \ wisdom/noooodl \ wisdom/code \ wisdom/phantom_______
02:19:54 <shachaf> oerjan: i'm tempted to make it work on _ but maybe there's enough phantom______confusion
02:20:01 <HackEgo> ievan is basically http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4om1rQKPijI
02:20:17 <HackEgo> Bike FreeFull oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf nitia
02:22:15 <oerjan> @tell int-e here's the relevant trac https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/9706
02:22:20 <tswett> 07:45:28: <oerjat> mas. moweogtonpem sec. not nione has joined #ksot
02:26:19 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/ievan | grep summary: | tac
02:27:10 <shachaf> The first time I heard that polkka was in 2014, it looks like.
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02:32:36 <oerjan> well i got it linked from here
02:33:47 <oerjan> (and i meant the wisdom, in case anyone is confused)
02:35:07 <shachaf> `run rgrep -lP '([^w\W])\1\1' wisdom
02:35:08 <HackEgo> wisdom/nooodle \ wisdom/xkcq \ wisdom/hagb4rd \ wisdom/yeeeeeeeesh \ wisdom/yeeeeeeeeeesh \ wisdom/ssstosis \ wisdom/www \ wisdom/yeeeeeeeeesh \ wisdom/ioccclist \ wisdom/llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch \ wisdom/yeeeeeesh \ wisdom/nooodl \ wisdom/code \ wisdom/phantom___hoover \ wisdom/vim \ wisdom/shiasdayviaerqjjjjjjjj
02:35:25 <HackEgo> perl -pe 's/(\w)\1\1/"@{[$1 x(3+rand 7)]}"/ge'
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02:35:52 <HackEgo> vim equals to approximately ccxxxxxxviin.
02:35:57 <oerjan> `mkx bin/rnooodl//perl -pe 's/([^w\w])\1\1/"@{[$1 x(3+rand 7)]}"/ge'
02:36:14 <HackEgo> Phantom___Hoover sucks at ghosting himself.
02:36:55 <oerjan> wait did you change to \W all of a sudden
02:37:15 <oerjan> `mkx bin/rnooodl//perl -pe 's/([^w\W])\1\1/"@{[$1 x(3+rand 7)]}"/ge'
02:37:22 <shachaf> \w means word characters, \W means the complement
02:37:22 * oerjan doesn't really know what he's doing
02:37:28 <shachaf> and ^ means the complement
02:37:52 <shachaf> I sure wish regexps had intersections and complements.
02:38:14 <HackEgo> Nooodles are the invention of the Chinese. They were brought to Europe by Marco Polo, a distant ancestor of Taneb.
02:38:26 <HackEgo> Noooodles are the invention of the Chinese. They were brought to Europe by Marco Polo, a distant ancestor of Taneb.
02:38:41 <HackEgo> [11,11,11,15,15,23,12],[5,5,5,3,53,45,16,26,00,20,15,16,22,25,45,91,32,11,15,27,06,01,11,01,47,22,30,13,43,21,11,13,29,61,65,17,19,12,28,17,11,01,23,20,16,20,81,18,32,25,58,22.,1985,10.301350435,15555555554669736900946809800000000956080767,1372094670449491379188594026666666665466978579582015128512190078...
02:40:15 <shachaf> `le/rn pumping lemma/nooodl's pumping lemma for wisdom entries states that for any sufficiently long valid wisdom entry, there exists a letter that can be repeated any number of times.
02:40:15 <HackEgo> ioccccclist is update notification for when a new year of the International Obfuscated Contest is announced, or the winners for a year is announced, or the source codes of winners are released. http://www.ioccccc.org/#news
02:40:33 <oerjan> MAYBE not so helpful in that case.
02:40:57 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/ioccclist
02:41:28 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯ soviet russia?
02:41:37 <HackEgo> In ancient history, the Soviet Union used to be the THEM. They believed in absurd principles like "Better Red than Dead". Then Ronald Reagan invented Star Wars to destroy it, after which there seemed to be no the THEM for a while.
02:42:03 <shachaf> I like how you can write that with <Compose> C C C P
02:42:20 <shachaf> Although not with <Compose> С С С Р
02:43:09 <shachaf> lynn: aren't you an expert in regular languages
02:43:23 <shachaf> lynn: and pooch-down automata and all sorts of things
02:44:49 <oerjan> . o O ( what style is pooch-down automata described in )
02:47:10 <oerjan> . o O ( yay, a channel killing pun )
02:51:53 <shachaf> lynn: should i take that as approval hth
02:52:02 <HackEgo> nooooooooodl's pumping lemma for wisdom entries states that for any sufficiently long valid wisdom entry, there exists a letter that can be repeated any number of times.
02:53:15 <shachaf> https://bosker.wordpress.com/2013/08/18/i-hate-the-pumping-lemma/ claims that the pumping lemma for regular languages is scow
02:53:28 <shachaf> But what about the pumping lemma for context-free languages?
02:55:03 <lynn> "PS. I don’t have anything against the pumping lemma for context-free languages." Good PS.
02:55:48 <shachaf> But if you dislike the pumping lemma for regular languages because it's confusing, you must dislike the one for context-free languages even more.
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03:10:55 <lynn> Maybe it's that there's no good alternative in the context-free case
03:11:30 <lynn> Like, PLCFL is the right tool for the job, whereas PLRL is a sort of wonky over-complicated one that isn't even the best at what it does?
03:11:40 <lynn> That's what I'm getting from this blog post
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03:16:49 <zzo38> On my computer, "ddate" is not found in any package.
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03:21:39 <zzo38> In Soviet Russia, CCCP compose YOU!!!
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04:24:43 <zzo38> Can you recognize what typesetting system uses input like this? @Style[LeftMargin 10 chars, RightMargin 10 chars, Spacing 1 line, Justification no, TabWidth 8 chars] It also uses @. for a period that does not end a sentence, and it looks like the parameter of a command can use [] or () or ""
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04:59:41 <Moon_> Can someone type the char used to give hackego commands? Apple devices lack it on the keyboard
05:00:46 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know what extension it had originally.
05:01:11 <shachaf> Does it look like <http://www.mit.edu/~kerberos/krb5-1.4/krb5-1.4.1/doc/old-V4-docs/installation.mss>?
05:01:41 <zzo38> Yes, it is like that one.
05:01:57 <Moon_> im using a tablet, so i dont have it
05:02:58 <zzo38> shachaf: Do you know what program would typeset such files?
05:04:19 <Moon_> Figured out what to do
05:14:12 <zzo38> The program in ifMUD for Discordian calendar is: @print("Today is ",@let(1,@add(@switch(@time("mon"),0,-1,1,30,2,58,3,89,4,119,5,150,6,180,7,211,8,242,9,272,10,303,11,333),@time("mday")),@switch(@print(@time("mon"),"/",@time("mday")),"1/29","St. Tib's Day", @print(@switch(@mod("%1",5),0,"Sweetmorn",1,"Boomtime",2,"Pungenday",3,"Prickle-Prickle",4,"Setting Orange"),", ",@switch(@idiv("%1",73),0,"Chaos",1,"Discord",2,"Confusion",3,"Bureaucracy",4
05:18:36 <Moon_> I wonder, would a bash script that generates a number sequence based on input be useful?
05:22:11 <zzo38> I don't know; many kind of programs probably can be written with shell-scripts. (I wrote a gopher client with shell-scripts, and there are also shell archives, and other stuff)
05:22:18 <lambdabot> Generalized pentagonal numbers: n*(3*n-1)/2, n=0, +- 1, +- 2, +- 3,....[0,1,...
05:22:55 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: <<timeout>>
05:24:12 <lambdabot> Look and Say sequence: describe the previous term! (method A - initial term ...
05:24:59 <tswett> Quote from the neural net:
05:24:59 <tswett> 21:16:54: <mromangaboy> is Corriuting praning that thomgar,! pomkifen pomrye that Cw2ope ywucs:
05:25:12 <tswett> Is "mromangaboy" an actual attested nick, or did the neural net just make that up?
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05:26:49 <tswett> Lemme calculate the number of parameters this net has.
05:26:52 <oerjan> Moon__: don't irc and drive hth
05:27:03 <tswett> 7 hidden layers, size 50.
05:27:06 <Moon__> `mkx sequ//echo {"$1".."$2"} | sed "s/,//g"
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05:27:14 <oerjan> tswett: mromangaboy is a pretty obvious portmanteau
05:27:24 <Moon__> My irc crashed oerjan, heh
05:27:45 <oerjan> Moon__: you forgot the bin/
05:28:14 <tswett> Input layer is size 256 (no parameters). First hidden layer is size 50 ((256+1)*50 parameters). Remaining 6 hidden layers are also size 50 (6*(50+1)*50 parameters). Output layer is size 256 ((50+1)*256 parameters).
05:28:15 <HackEgo> seq: invalid floating point argument: 1 10 \ Try `seq --help' for more information.
05:28:28 <HackEgo> 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 4 \ 5 \ 6 \ 7 \ 8 \ 9 \ 10
05:28:35 <tswett> > (256+1)*50 + 6*(50+1)*50 + (50+1)*256
05:28:47 <Moon__> People dont use it anymore
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05:31:48 <Moon___> What is it with safari and crashing when i type really fast
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05:36:25 <\oren\> Moon___: don' use safari
05:36:55 <\oren\> it is a terrible browser
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05:46:11 * oerjan finally catches up to april 1 in haskell
05:46:37 <oerjan> and promptly fell for snoyberg's Either post.
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06:22:30 <zzo38> Is there the document describing how the VAX microcode is working?
06:30:40 <zzo38> I found some documents
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07:08:53 <oerjan> myname: http://www.yesodweb.com/blog/2016/04/fixing-monad-either
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07:23:23 <Moon_> http://www.tutorialspoint.com/execute_bash_online.php Is my new favorite utility
07:27:20 <HackEgo> [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo usage: "mk[x]" file//contents >&2; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "$key")" && echo "$key"
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07:41:07 <myname> i prefer my bash as an actual shell
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07:50:35 <myname> i said bash, not smash
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08:51:58 <myname> i use zsh with all the fish features and more
09:03:22 <shachaf> zzo38: It looks like a command called "scribe".
09:04:39 <shachaf> zzo38: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scribe_(markup_language)
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13:14:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Drainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47082&oldid=25380 * LegionMammal978 * (+26) /* External resources */
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13:37:31 <izabera> http://i.imgur.com/heEk8ez.jpg do you english speaking people know what this means without looking it up?
13:38:43 <gamemanj> one unrecognized word "halcyon"... but it's probably something positive, so "halcyon days" would be something like "have good future days"/something like that
13:39:50 <izabera> it's referring to past happy days
13:40:02 <gamemanj> performing further inference... anime... iqdb searching... FAIL... Google Image Search... Bleach.
13:40:05 <izabera> according to the interwebz
13:40:16 <izabera> but that counts as looking it up
13:40:36 <gamemanj> True, but you already told me what it was, so...
13:41:04 <gamemanj> (Oh, and it's not actually telling me what the text says. *sigh*)
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14:02:04 <Phantom__Hoover> you just said it refers to past happy days, that's what i would think it means
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14:04:16 <HackEgo> Sivitri Scarzam \ 5UB \ Legendary Creature -- Human \ 6/4 \ LE-U, CH-U, ME3-C
14:06:15 <b_jonas> hehe, even John Baez reports about the small Turing machines stuff in his blog: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/diary/
14:06:30 <b_jonas> um, http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/diary/may_2016.html
14:07:21 <b_jonas> bt the way he reports it strenghtens my belief that I'm correct to put John Baez in the mental file of a physicist
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14:18:14 <izabera> https://github.com/tmux/tmux/issues/428
14:22:04 <\oren\> has anyone constructed a turing machine with a reel-to-reel magnetic tape?
14:23:27 <Taneb> \oren\, I was going to last summer but a) I'm terrible, and b) I have no idea where to buy that sort of tape
14:24:14 <gamemanj> eh, just cannibalize a consumer-grade tape recorder
14:24:31 <gamemanj> it's technically still reel-to-reel, the reels are just packed into portable cartridges.
14:24:49 <gamemanj> an Arduino could run the thing
14:27:36 <Taneb> gamemanj, that solves the second problem!
14:29:23 <gamemanj> depending on how far you want to go, you could just connect an Arduino to two tapes - one for the program, another for the data...
14:29:34 <gamemanj> or you could go further with logic chips
14:29:56 <gamemanj> ZX-Spectrum style tape data storage is probably easy enough to implement
14:31:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MonkeyCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47083&oldid=35328 * LegionMammal978 * (+20) /* External resources */
14:31:40 <b_jonas> um, the “tape” is just a metaphor. it needn't be actual magnetic tape.
14:31:52 <Taneb> b_jonas, no-one said it had to be
14:31:59 <b_jonas> it could be a sequence of large capacity hard disks
14:32:47 <gamemanj> and anyway, it's probably cheaper to get ahold of music cassette tape than it is large-capacity hard disks
14:35:54 <Phantom_Hoover> would you not have problems with the fact that magnetic tape might not work exactly like TM tape?
14:37:37 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean the tape has to be moving across the head to get a read, i think
14:38:01 <gamemanj> there would be problems keeping the symbols in sync, but if you can go backwards and forwards, then it's just a matter of making sure to have sync pulses. Like, two pulses nearby for "one", but one for "zero". Then it's just a matter of "formatting" the tape to put in the initial sync pulses.
14:40:34 <gamemanj> As long as it doesn't miss any pulses, it should work fine - forwards or backwards.
14:41:42 <gamemanj> After reading a pulse, the head should be parked at half of the distance between pulses, and a flag should exist to determine if it's left of the current symbol, or right.
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15:54:14 <HackEgo> termite//Termites are genericized ants for intellectual property reasons.
16:04:55 <HackEgo> mosquito//Mosquitos are tiny vampires, sucking out your soul.
16:15:15 <gamemanj> so HackEgo knows "no" but not "yes"
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16:17:56 <HackEgo> Concentrate and ask again.
16:19:21 <gamemanj> in other news, I found more messages in that weird language from yesterday-or-so:
16:19:22 <gamemanj> Thise hablookgcsToriir-dome, by:- shale,
16:19:22 <gamemanj> KI unrurwfling chillst', hy kinl'gror; fiEThgrivo? apcitjeons I rue,
16:20:07 <gamemanj> and it makes just as much sense, too...
16:21:04 <gamemanj> @tell tswett goVO'ploth;,olmflake-mome,
16:21:53 <gamemanj> @tell tswett temperature 2. Two can play that game!
16:28:59 <HackEgo> ኢትዮጵያ ውስጥ የሚሰራ የምግብ አይነት ሲሆን፣ የሚሰራውም ከጤፍ ነው።
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16:57:15 <HackEgo> [U+1230 ETHIOPIC SYLLABLE SA]
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17:51:00 <hppavilion[1]> Hm... what's the Planck constant for fame? Or Beauty? Or Coolness?
17:51:56 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose that since a Warhol is the traditional unit of fame, and lasts for 15 minutes, the Planck Fame is probably 1 Planck Time of fame
17:53:08 <hppavilion[1]> So the Planck Fame is, of course, the minimum amount of fame required to wind up on TMZ
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17:55:53 <gamemanj> ...I'm not going to ask what TPETA is
17:56:05 <gamemanj> and I'm going to be scared of what I guess
17:56:16 <hppavilion[1]> (Theoretical Physicists for the Ethical Treatment of Assemblies of Fundamental Particles)
17:57:25 <gamemanj> wait... do they consider eating food unethical, then?
17:57:53 <gamemanj> technically food == assemblies of fundamental particles... Ok, I think I can successfully get people to ignore them
17:57:54 <zzo38> The link for the Perl implementation of muxcomp seem broke, although it will be possible to write new implementations based on the description there, including hardware implementation.
17:58:35 <zzo38> It is on esolang wiki
17:58:47 <gamemanj> Is this your plan for the main CPU?
17:59:14 <zzo38> For part of the microcode for main CPU, possibly.
17:59:19 <gamemanj> I think it might be easier to just use the video processor design ^.^;
17:59:30 <gamemanj> as in, just one processor design, but multiple of them
18:00:15 <zzo38> That is another idea
18:00:35 <gamemanj> I think it keeps things simple...
18:00:56 <gamemanj> Plus, simple processor means you need less FPGA resources in theory
18:01:16 <zzo38> Yes I can understand that.
18:01:37 <zzo38> However I think what is design for video processor would be insufficient for the main processor
18:02:30 <hppavilion[1]> Hm... do imperial units include less conventional measurements? e.g. an equivalent of Pascals?
18:02:50 <tswett> Well, there's pounds per square inch.
18:03:59 <lambdabot> gamemanj said 1h 42m 55s ago: goVO'ploth;,olmflake-mome,
18:03:59 <lambdabot> gamemanj said 1h 42m 5s ago: temperature 2. Two can play that game!
18:04:35 <tswett> So, let's see if my neural net has plateaued.
18:04:41 <tswett> "Plateaued", what a nice word.
18:05:59 <tswett> It's like that word for a thing that is similar to a queue, but isn't a queue.
18:07:49 <zzo38> My design of thinking is that although esolangs page for muxcomp says memory locations, my design uses registers, and the muxcomp operations only exist in microcode so the instruction size does not have to match the memory size. Other parts of the same microcode VLIW instruction would include the external memory I/O part, branch targets based on condition, autoincrement, and addition/subtraction arithmetic including carry.
18:08:16 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Are there any words with more than 4 consecutive vowels?
18:08:30 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: well, there's "queueing".
18:08:40 <tswett> As for a word *ending* with more than 4 consecutive vowels, I'm not aware of any.
18:08:59 <zzo38> Some registers can be special registers, too.
18:09:43 <tswett> Lemme do a little search, here.
18:09:57 <gamemanj> don't mind me just also running a search through /usr/share/dict/*
18:10:53 <gamemanj> grep -i "[aeiou][aeiou][aeiou][aeiou][aeiou]" /usr/share/dict/*
18:11:03 <gamemanj> ...why do I have a french dictionary
18:11:18 <tswett> You mean grep -E '[aeiou]{3}' /usr/share/dict/*?
18:12:08 <tswett> Mine doesn't have any words with 5 or more.
18:12:23 <gamemanj> "queueing" seems to be the one with the longest run
18:12:46 <tswett> But it has a few words ending with four vowels.
18:13:07 <gamemanj> If you're Italian, you're in luck!
18:13:18 <tswett> Onomatopoeia, pharmacopoeia, queue, sequoia.
18:14:09 <gamemanj> In which case, I have some good news for you
18:14:36 <gamemanj> it's in the italian dictionary. now to see what it means...
18:14:46 <zzo38> Someone suggest to me that the MIDI variant used in my computer design could be called IMIDI instead of MIDI.
18:15:23 <gamemanj> (this is extra-funny if you /whois'd tswett)
18:15:49 <tswett> [Whois] tswett is tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 (Tanner Swett)
18:16:17 <zzo38> The protocol is MIDI although the physical connection and electrical specification and so on may differ, and the communication is two ways in one cable.
18:16:54 <zzo38> (Also this new one isn't generally used for music, although it can be)
18:18:55 <zzo38> I am not sure what IMIDI even stands for, but may someone can make up what the letters abbreviate.
18:22:24 <hppavilion[1]> Hm... Are people on IRC who are /only/ on #esoteric infidels?
18:24:14 <zzo38> What do you mean by "infidel"?
18:25:47 <lambdabot> *** "infidel" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
18:25:47 <lambdabot> n 1: a person who does not acknowledge your god [syn: {heathen},
18:26:02 <fizzie> I assume that depends on your god.
18:26:49 <fizzie> For example, if you're the only person who knows of them, everyone else is almost by definition one, including people on IRC only on #esoteric, assuming you're not one of them.
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18:29:12 <zzo38> It still does not explain much, it seem. What are your religious views anyways? Perhaps it can answer the question.
18:29:56 <zzo38> Are you the only person who knows of them? Prove it!
18:30:30 <Moon_> once the logs are long enough, ima feed em through a program for fun
18:30:41 <zzo38> OK, what program is that?
18:32:10 <Moon_> This little bit of feed here is not enough for eligible messages
18:33:08 <Moon_> this is what i gave for that: http://pastebin.com/8penHaqt
18:34:16 <hppavilion[1]> "censor", in ancient rome, described "The guy who maintains the census"
18:34:33 <Moon_> yea, the program is intresting
18:34:45 <hppavilion[1]> Which is where the modern meaning of c***** comes from
18:35:02 <Moon_> if i find something stupidly funny, i might show you all if you wish
18:35:26 <Moon_> Travestion[1]> ...huh
18:36:17 <fizzie> How long would "long enough" be?
18:36:39 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: My religious views are from the Church of the Walrus GOd
18:36:50 <Moon_> maybe a hour of logs during a bit busy times
18:37:00 <fizzie> There's a lot more than that available already.
18:37:04 <hppavilion[1]> I guess we stand for the conservation of angular momentum?
18:37:14 <tswett> I think it stands for the Grand Walrus Party.
18:37:19 <Moon_> ill take from the tunes logs
18:38:04 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: OK, and are you infidel?
18:38:32 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Not sure, we haven't established what constitutes an infidel on #esoteric. That's what I was asking earlier.
18:38:35 <b_jonas> is it going to be reprinted in this near future reprint set, whatever it's called?
18:38:40 <b_jonas> eternal masters or something
18:39:00 <tswett> Oh, that's easy. An infidel is someone who does not worship fungot.
18:39:00 <fungot> tswett: they say that building a dungeon is a highly intelligent and completely evil creature. unlike the older race of the forest-day about him when he attacked cyrus in 549, after many minutes of climbing up the food into his house. one was his skilled handling of the numerous and colorfully mutilated divinities of that time, i will see in heaven is just a snake, to have an open ear, a lion-headed goddess.
18:39:07 <hppavilion[1]> I was asking whether someone who /only/ uses #esoteric on IRC is an infidel because they aren't using enough of IRC
18:39:12 <Moon_> '' peoplementated. ''
18:39:24 <zzo38> I wouldn't expect that makes you infidel?
18:39:29 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack* oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
18:39:46 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
18:39:53 <Moon_> oh, b_jonas, can you turn on termbot?
18:40:05 <b_jonas> Wastelands and Sinkhole too
18:40:13 <hppavilion[1]> I was hoping it would be something like the translations of the documents governing the Nazi secret police
18:40:33 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
18:40:37 <fungot> Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages)
18:41:24 <Moon_> ok, thx, hes not in the #termbot channel yet
18:41:33 <hppavilion[1]> fungot: What is your opinion on the capitalization of "Into" in "StAr tReK: iNtO DaRkNeSs"?
18:41:33 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: the merger was a good idea to keep this article written as if thet name change were accomplished fact; yes, us curriculum materials have been printed to that effect.
18:42:10 <hppavilion[1]> I assume "us" is "United States", not "this group of people that I am in"
18:42:11 <tswett> They really should have compromised on "Star Trek Into Darkness".
18:42:46 <tswett> Well, one side wanted "Star Trek into Darkness" and the other side wanted "Star Trek: Into Darkness".
18:42:52 <b_jonas> Moon_: strange, according to my irc connection, it is and you aren't
18:43:09 <Moon_> oh i made a typ in the name
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18:43:56 <tswett> Now, lemme see. I think a neural net with 50,000 parameters just can't do a very good job of learning English vocabulary.
18:44:27 <Moon_> here, almost 100 kb of travestificator madness: http://pastebin.com/igX83siC
18:44:41 <gamemanj> ... Ok, look, here's how you spell it: サAタ trek: トニ darkness. There. No capitalization, and all the potential problematic words have been messed with (and badly by someone who doesn't know what they're doing - i.e. me -, too)
18:45:00 <gamemanj> (That unicode chart's been really useful recently...)
18:45:04 <hppavilion[1]> "Occasionally the metre per hour is used for slow-moving objects like snails." --wikipedia
18:45:21 <HackEgo> [U+30B5 KATAKANA LETTER SA] [U+0041 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A] [U+30BF KATAKANA LETTER TA]
18:45:26 <HackEgo> [U+30C8 KATAKANA LETTER TO] [U+30CB KATAKANA LETTER NI]
18:45:33 <hppavilion[1]> Why do we do hourly wages? Why not give wages by the fortsecond?
18:45:49 <tswett> Shillings per fortsecond.
18:46:04 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: because then it would probably add up to less than an integer value and then they could pay you nothing
18:46:29 <gamemanj> and then they could call it a "rounding error"
18:46:47 <gamemanj> Well, probably not legally, but still
18:47:05 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Also, if you're charged minimum wage by the hour, and an hour is 3,600 seconds, and a fortsecond is 14 seconds...
18:47:52 <tswett> According to Wikipedia, an adult knows roughly 15,000 words.
18:48:05 <tswett> So how many parameters should I have? Hmm.
18:48:32 <tswett> I already have about 40,000, and they're not doing too hot.
18:49:03 <tswett> Lemme try 200,000 parameters.
18:49:05 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: we already have wages or salaries given per hour, day, week, month, and year; and the net and gross version of each of these and in all kinds of monetary units with sometimes the exponent omitted. it can be pretty confusing already when someone just gives their salary as a number like “I earn 140”.
18:49:08 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: There. 3 cents/fortsecond gets you a bit better than minimum wage
18:49:19 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: I'd say it can't get any worse if you add fortseconds, but it probably can.
18:50:06 <gamemanj> "From the desk of a rich person: 'I earn £140 million a fortsecond.'"
18:50:57 <hppavilion[1]> I'm just throwing out words and hoping it makes a joke
18:51:13 <gamemanj> For one british pound, you can get 1.46 US Dollars, according to Google's converter.
18:51:21 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: I think 140 million pounds per fortsecond is probably more than the minimum wage in the US
18:51:27 <gamemanj> Thus, presumably the US Dollar is worth less.
18:51:31 <hppavilion[1]> I don't see why England uses pounds as their currency instead of Kilograms
18:51:52 <gamemanj> WE HAVE ICH DIEN ON OUR TWO PENCES!
18:52:15 <gamemanj> no? So apparently you can confuse me but I can't confuse you.
18:52:23 <gamemanj> Anyway, don't mind me, I'm going to get out a 2p coin
18:52:42 <hppavilion[1]> The US also needs a pi dollar bill. But who should be on it?
18:52:51 <gamemanj> but, yeah, you can't get standardized printed on kilograms
18:53:00 <gamemanj> it seems I am omitting words today
18:54:12 <tswett> But there's still a federal minimum wage.
18:54:21 <Moon_> whats a good software for a neura networks?
18:54:44 <Moon_> neural networks, any language :P
18:54:54 <tswett> Moon_: I'm using TensorFlow.
18:54:57 <gamemanj> Moon_: ... to initialize the dataset, you should connect up electrodes to your house cat, then...
18:55:09 <hppavilion[1]> Moon_: I recommend Zuccini if you want the purest neural networks
18:55:12 <Moon_> iu am not hurting my housecat
18:55:20 <tswett> Moon_: I mean, do you want to write code, or do you want something that works out of the box?
18:55:37 <Moon_> works out of the box, i am nt good at complex numbers as of now
18:55:37 <tswett> For something that works out of the box, use Karpathy's char-rnn or its successor torch-rnn.
18:56:33 <gamemanj> Moon_: Hurting a cat would be a very bad thing!
18:56:43 <gamemanj> Moon_: (Then again, who said that they would be hurt in the process?)
18:56:53 <hppavilion[1]> The US states with the highest minimum wage are California and Massachusetts at $10/hour, though New York has rather complicated laws that have different minimum wages based on the region, and there's a plan that changes it for the next 5 years
18:57:11 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, and it's also based on the size of the employer
18:57:54 <tswett> Wouldn't it be funny if minimum wage scaled linearly with the size of the employer?
18:58:05 <hppavilion[1]> American Samoa has it awful; minimum wage varies by industry, but it can be as small as $4.19
18:58:19 <tswett> "Each of your employees must be paid at least 0.01% of your company's revenue."
18:58:43 <tswett> Some companies don't have any revenue, so they wouldn't have to pay their employees anything.
18:59:05 <tswett> Of course, this would set a hard limit on the number of employees a company can have.
18:59:17 <tswett> It would be just about impossible to have 10,000 employees.
18:59:39 <tswett> Come to think of it, no, you could have more than 10,000 employees.
18:59:56 <tswett> You'd simply have to pay more in employee compensation than you're earning in revenue.
19:00:15 <hppavilion[1]> the U.S. virgin islands and Puerto Rico have minimum wage at the same as the federal minimum wage ($7.25); the only U.S. territory with a superfederal minimum wage is Guam at $8.25
19:01:02 <hppavilion[1]> The minimum wage of #esoteric is, of course, $-10/nanocentury
19:01:15 <zzo38> I think minimum wage should be zero
19:01:44 <zzo38> You don't need minimum wage.
19:01:51 <tswett> It's the additive inverse of $n.
19:02:35 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: What about for workers who have no sense of money?
19:03:16 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: And if no minimum wage is needed, companies can just collectively offer less money than their labor is worth. Of course, I suppose products will start to be worth less, but that still leads to rapid deflation
19:04:00 <tswett> Are you suggesting that all the companies in the US would collaborate to lower wages?
19:04:14 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Yes, because it'd be better for them overall
19:04:46 <tswett> Surely there would be a lot of defectors, though. Companies which decide to offer the usual wages instead, because then they'll get more and better employees.
19:05:12 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Perhaps, but it'd still probably make the economy unstable
19:06:29 <tswett> Dang, that's below the absolute poverty line.
19:08:10 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: That's, like, below the double poverty line
19:08:25 <tswett> The double poverty line?
19:08:34 <zzo38> I think if an employer does not consider my work as much as minimum wage and therefore want to pay less and if I would want to accept such a job, that it should not be illegal to do so.
19:08:45 <tswett> So, this new neural net isn't good at Shakespeare yet.
19:08:47 <tswett> s ernitmhI d' agpgiTh.. hr�eseidhoce,�rrIrlt;esswyo lp ba lcy,nsl� ee hhhaiigmn to wo lt,ohAhpwrUtnh o lmh iwpIrsOfdI eotihus wh
19:09:12 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: At which the average person living below the poverty line has it as well as the average person living above the poverty line, relative to the average person below the double poverty line
19:09:49 <Moon_> at least it has a vague idea about the word 'to'
19:10:18 <hppavilion[1]> So if the average non-povertous person makes 100 units per planck time, and the average povertous person makes 20 units per planck time, then the average double-povertous person makes 4 units per planck time
19:11:05 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: so, like, consider the ratio between the living standards of the average person above the line and the average person below the line?
19:11:53 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: And the average person above the double anti-poverty line, in the previous scenario, makes 500 units per planck time
19:12:34 <hppavilion[1]> (maybe it should just be called the anti-poverty line, but that makes it less clear)
19:15:15 <\oren\> WHY IS THERE AN FN-LK function?!?!?!?!?
19:15:56 <b_jonas> \oren\: for numpad, I think
19:16:09 <b_jonas> \oren\: or maybe for the function keys
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19:16:36 <\oren\> b_jonas: My laptop has a full 100 key keyboeard
19:17:10 <\oren\> the fn key only exists to allow volume up volume down etc
19:17:15 <int-e> \oren\: for people who miss the fn key because they're used to it from other vendors?
19:18:12 <\oren\> Well it has a fn, but why is there an fn lock?
19:23:44 <int-e> for people who want to user thr 789uiojkl numpad?
19:24:09 -!- xfix has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.).
19:24:29 <int-e> Of course, now there's no excuse for not also including a discordian date key, and one for making coffee.
19:25:18 -!- xfix has joined.
19:25:29 <\oren\> int-e: but my laptop has an actual numpad!!!!
19:25:33 <gamemanj> (TODO: Implement these for real) Actually the "make coffee" key is Fn-F1 (usually play-pause), and the "What was the last #ddate twist by @tasty" key is Fn-F2.
19:26:13 <int-e> \oren\: but who's still using that ;-)
19:26:52 <b_jonas> gamemanj: which button is discordian date, and which button controls the amount of sugar in the coffee?
19:27:19 <int-e> b_jonas: it depends on the phase of the moon.
19:27:22 <gamemanj> b_jonas: @tasty posts a #ddate twist every day, so Fn-F2 works fine, and the amount of sugar is always right.
19:29:46 <gamemanj> don't mind me just playing with zenity and twisterd...
19:31:16 <gamemanj> this seems to be "reliable enough": twisterd getposts 32 "[{\"username\":\"tasty\"}]" | grep -m 1 ddate
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19:39:36 <gamemanj> YOLD_RAW=`twisterd getposts 32 "[{\"username\":\"tasty\"}]" | grep -m 1 ddate`
19:39:36 <gamemanj> YOLD_FIXED=`echo "$YOLD_RAW" | tail -c +22 | head -c -3`
19:41:42 <gamemanj> There. Now I just need to implement a way of controlling a coffee machine...
20:05:22 <fizzie> Remember to follow the standards when doing that.
20:05:36 <fizzie> https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2324.txt
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20:15:37 <gamemanj> fizzie: Trouble is, the particular coffee machine I have is closer to...
20:16:36 <gamemanj> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21184720/tossercp.txt
20:17:16 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Leaving...).
20:17:40 <gamemanj> (For some reason, my random scribblings have been rather useful today.)
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21:10:03 <zzo38> Yes maybe some functions should be user-defined functions. You probably could reprogram the play/pause key in your operating system though, to execute a program to control a coffee maker and display a Discordian date, if you prefer to do that
21:12:52 <gamemanj> Well, the coffee maker thing isn't practical, but I now have Fn-F1 set to display the latest twist from @tasty containing "#ddate". So there's that.
21:12:53 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you see my message about Scribe?
21:14:18 -!- boily has joined.
21:14:21 <zzo38> Yes. Is there a free implementation of Scribe?
21:16:28 <HackEgo> I'm sorry, #esoteric has regulars, not members. Who told you about members? There are definitely no members here, and you wouldn't be allowed to know about them, anyway.
21:17:16 <HackEgo> noooooodl's pumping lemma for wisdom entries states that for any sufficiently long valid wisdom entry, there exists a letter that can be repeated any number of times.
21:17:40 <shachaf> `run rgrep -lP '([^w\W])\1\1' wisdom
21:17:52 <HackEgo> wisdom/nooodle \ wisdom/xkcq \ wisdom/hagb4rd \ wisdom/yeeeeeeeesh \ wisdom/yeeeeeeeeeesh \ wisdom/ssstosis \ wisdom/www \ wisdom/yeeeeeeeeesh \ wisdom/ioccclist \ wisdom/llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch \ wisdom/yeeeeeesh \ wisdom/pumping lemma \ wisdom/nooodl \ wisdom/code \ wisdom/phantom___hoover \ wisdom/vim \ wisdom/
21:18:02 <HackEgo> WWWWWW is an abbreviation that takes longer to pronounce properly than what it expands to.
21:18:09 <HackEgo> WWWWW is an abbreviation that takes longer to pronounce properly than what it expands to.
21:18:23 <HackEgo> perl -pe 's/([^w\W])\1\1/"@{[$1 x(3+rand 7)]}"/ge'
21:18:46 <shachaf> `run sed -i s/w/wW/ bin/rnooodl
21:19:24 <HackEgo> WWW is an abbreviation that takes longer to pronounce properly than what it expands to.
21:19:27 <shachaf> `run rgrep -lP '([^w\W])\1\1' wisdom | sed 's#wisdom/##'
21:19:29 <HackEgo> nooodle \ xkcq \ hagb4rd \ yeeeeeeeesh \ yeeeeeeeeeesh \ ssstosis \ www \ yeeeeeeeeesh \ ioccclist \ llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch \ yeeeeeesh \ pumping lemma \ nooodl \ code \ phantom___hoover \ vim \ shiasdayviaerqjjjjjjjj \ hat \ yeeeeesh \ welcome.bork \ pho \ yeeeeeeesh \ yeeeesh
21:19:34 <HackEgo> vim equals to approximately ccxxxviin.
21:19:59 <HackEgo> Phở is a Vietnamese soup invented by nooodl to stress-test implementations of Unicode combining characters.
21:20:38 <HackEgo> ssssssssstosis is a disease causing false identities
21:20:58 <HackEgo> "xkcq" is worth 8 more points than "xkcd" in Scrabble, or a whopping 30 more if both are played optimally on a triple word score. Nyahhhhhhhhh.
21:21:06 <HackEgo> hagb4rd is one spacey fellow. Spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace.
21:21:50 <shachaf> `` echo spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace
21:21:52 <HackEgo> spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace
21:41:48 <boily> Shachaf the Character Witch. Shacharactch.
21:43:19 <shachaf> `` grep -P '(.)\1\1' share/dict-words
21:48:31 <tswett> `` echo Fannee Doolee's noodle balloons
21:48:33 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file
21:48:45 <tswett> `` echo Fannee Doolee\'s noodle balloons
21:48:46 <HackEgo> Fannee Doolee's noodle balloons
21:49:25 <HackEgo> cat: bin/echo: No such file or directory
21:49:41 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ Binary file wisdom/reflection matches
21:49:42 <tswett> `` echo bbbbb bbbbb bbbbb
21:49:44 <HackEgo> bbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbb bbbbbbbb
21:49:49 <b_jonas> ``` grep -s silent wisdom/*
21:49:51 <HackEgo> Binary file wisdom/reflection matches
21:49:56 <tswett> `` echo b bb bbb bbbb bbbbb bbbbbb bbbbbbb
21:49:57 <HackEgo> b bb bbbbb bbbb bbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbb
21:50:07 <tswett> `echo b bb b bb b bb b bb b bb b bb bbb bbb bbb bbb bbb bbb bbb bbb
21:50:09 <HackEgo> b bb b bb b bb b bb b bb b bb bbb bbb bbb bbb bbb bbb bbb bbb
21:50:18 <b_jonas> ``` grep -si "[pc]hth" wisdom/*
21:50:20 <HackEgo> wisdom/chthonic:Chthonic lithping can be vethy dithturbing to lithten to. \ Binary file wisdom/reflection matches
21:50:22 <tswett> `` echo b bb b bb b bb b bb b bb b bb bbb bbb bbb bbb bbb bbb bbb bbb
21:50:23 <HackEgo> b bb b bb b bb b bb b bb b bb bbbbbbb bbbb bbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbb bbbbbbb bbb bbbbbbbbb bbbbbb
21:50:45 <tswett> `` echo "Fannneee Doooleee's nooodle balllooons"
21:50:46 <HackEgo> Fannnneeee Doooooooleee's nooooodle balllloooons
21:52:54 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts. There is a mountain made of shell scripts in the south. exit 0
21:52:58 <b_jonas> `learn Silent initial consonants in English are: write, wrong, wrist, wrap, wreck, wrest, wrestle, wriggle, wrinkle, wrath, wraith, wreath, wrangle, wren, wright, wrought, wring, writ, writhe, wry; know, knife, knock, knee, knight, knob, knot, knit, knack, knout, knuckle; psychology, psalm, pseudo, psychic, psionics; gnaw, gnash, gnome, gnu, gnat; pneumatic; mnemonic; chthonic; phthisis; bdellium.
21:53:02 <HackEgo> Learned 'silent': Silent initial consonants in English are: write, wrong, wrist, wrap, wreck, wrest, wrestle, wriggle, wrinkle, wrath, wraith, wreath, wrangle, wren, wright, wrought, wring, writ, writhe, wry; know, knife, knock, knee, knight, knob, knot, knit, knack, knout, knuckle; psychology, psalm, pseudo, psychic, psionics; gnaw, gnash, gnome,
21:53:46 <HackEgo> patching file wisdom/#esoteric
21:53:47 <HackEgo> Silent initial consonants in English are: write, wrong, wrist, wrap, wreck, wrest, wrestle, wriggle, wrinkle, wrath, wraith, wreath, wrangle, wren, wright, wrought, wring, writ, writhe, wry; know, knife, knock, knee, knight, knob, knot, knit, knack, knout, knuckle; psychology, psalm, pseudo, psychic, psionics; gnaw, gnash, gnome, gnu, gnat; pneumat
21:55:48 <b_jonas> `learn Silent initial consonants in English are: wr{ite,ong,ist,ap,eck,est,estle,iggle,inkle,ath,aith,eath,angle,en,ight,ought,ing,it,ithe,y}; kn{ow,ife,ock,ee,ight,ob,ot,it,ack,out,uckle}; ps{ychology,alm,eudo,ychic,ionics}; gn{aw,ash,ome,u,at}; pneumatic; mnemonic; chthonic; phthisis; bdellium.
21:55:50 <HackEgo> Relearned 'silent': Silent initial consonants in English are: wr{ite,ong,ist,ap,eck,est,estle,iggle,inkle,ath,aith,eath,angle,en,ight,ought,ing,it,ithe,y}; kn{ow,ife,ock,ee,ight,ob,ot,it,ack,out,uckle}; ps{ychology,alm,eudo,ychic,ionics}; gn{aw,ash,ome,u,at}; pneumatic; mnemonic; chthonic; phthisis; bdellium.
21:55:54 <HackEgo> Silent initial consonants in English are: wr{ite,ong,ist,ap,eck,est,estle,iggle,inkle,ath,aith,eath,angle,en,ight,ought,ing,it,ithe,y}; kn{ow,ife,ock,ee,ight,ob,ot,it,ack,out,uckle}; ps{ychology,alm,eudo,ychic,ionics}; gn{aw,ash,ome,u,at}; pneumatic; mnemonic; chthonic; phthisis; bdellium.
22:10:15 <myname> how is wrong considered to be pronounced if something is silent g
22:10:46 <Taneb> ...I pronounce both initial consononants in chthonic
22:11:10 <myname> as a german, the silent p always gets me
22:11:31 <b_jonas> the list includes stuff that some crazy English speakers pronounce without the initial consonants, which I don't really understand and often can't emulate
22:11:31 <myname> there is no such thing as a silent p in germany, even though these words exist
22:12:18 <b_jonas> I do omit the k from the kn* words, even "know" (because I pronounce it with a different vowel from "now"), but the wr* words are horrible, a lot of them are homonyms.
22:12:29 <Taneb> kn words sound different in my head to n words
22:12:35 <b_jonas> As in, "right, rite, wright, write" are all pronounced the same
22:12:36 <Taneb> But I think I pronounce them the same?
22:12:55 <b_jonas> well, even if "know" is fine, "knight" versus "night" can still be a problem of course
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22:13:12 <b_jonas> But I think the wr* words are worse
22:13:22 <int-e> b_jonas: it's a knightmare
22:13:35 <Taneb> b_jonas, I'm sure you're write
22:13:35 <myname> english is such a horrible language
22:13:58 <int-e> chinese is supposedly worse
22:14:22 <myname> the korean alphabet looks neat
22:14:52 <zzo38> English is a stupid language
22:14:55 <Taneb> I'm trying to learn Italian
22:15:15 <b_jonas> Taneb: I also hate the word "lead"
22:15:24 <b_jonas> but there's no consonant cluster involved there
22:15:34 <Taneb> b_jonas, I'll lead you to a lead-lined chamber where you will be safe
22:15:47 -!- hwpplayer1 has left.
22:15:50 <Taneb> You can live there, as long as you like, there'll even be live music!
22:16:08 <b_jonas> there's like three different words called "lead", plus two words called "led", with two pronounciations mixed up in a crazy way
22:16:55 <int-e> oh there's the lead in a criminal case
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22:17:01 <Taneb> b_jonas, I read once that there are over 60 definitions of "set"
22:17:58 <int-e> so, one verb with corresponding noun and adjective, and the metal.
22:19:51 <Taneb> int-e, there's apparently also a verb corresponding to the known
22:20:02 <int-e> do you distinguish a set of chess pieces from the mathematical sets?
22:20:45 <int-e> at least it's nice to have a set set of meanings
22:20:47 <Taneb> I believe this was the definitions according to OED
22:23:14 <b_jonas> Then there's these crazy word pairs nobody can distinguish, so they will probably merge in a few decades: depracate - depreciate, continuous - contiguous, homogenous - homogeneous
22:23:48 <int-e> the wiki layout on https://wiki.haskell.org/Lambdabot is so horrible... I keep looking for the page history in the box of tools on the right.
22:25:24 <zzo38> On MediaWiki you can use accesskey "h" for history mainly, I think, so if it is MediaWiki then try that.
22:25:47 <zzo38> (I use custom CSS on MediaWiki sites to hide all of the menus, so the keyboard commands are the only way to access such things anyways)
22:28:37 <b_jonas> int-e: or you can just type url paths directly, like adding &action=history or going to /wiki/Special:SpecialPages ; that usually works even on the worst skinned mediawikis, like wikia
22:29:04 <int-e> ... not looking for workarounds
22:29:43 <b_jonas> Those pairs are, I think, from different etimologies. Then there's demon - daemon - daimon which is from the same etimology and I never really understood how they're distinguished.
22:30:01 <b_jonas> or maybe only two of those are from the same etimology, the third isn't?
22:31:40 <int-e> (the link is there, after all... just not where I'm looking)
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23:29:44 <fizzie> The noun set has 13 senses (first 7 from tagged texts)
23:29:47 <fizzie> The verb set has 25 senses (first 14 from tagged texts)
23:29:49 <fizzie> The adj set has 7 senses (first 4 from tagged texts)
23:30:03 <fizzie> In WordNet. Of course OED goes for a lot more obscure meanings.
23:30:54 <fizzie> (As for lead, 17 senses for the noun and 14 for the verb in WordNet.)
23:32:15 <fizzie> Many related, of course.
23:33:17 -!- lambda-11235 has joined.
23:33:39 <fizzie> Aw, I just realized I can't use the university library's OED subscription much longer.
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00:06:38 <tswett> `le/rn mason jar/A Mason jar is a jar made by someone named Mason.
00:07:19 <zgrep> Can I speak to Mason, then? This jar is broken.
00:10:08 <boily> whell whell whellœrjan!
00:10:57 <oerjan> boily: we seem to meet only about every 3 days
00:11:15 <b_jonas> `learn Manager FAQ (by seebs) at http://www.seebs.net/faqs/manager.html
00:11:19 <HackEgo> Learned 'manager': Manager FAQ (by seebs) at http://www.seebs.net/faqs/manager.html
00:12:04 <boily> oerjan: I was exceptionaly busy lately hthly
00:12:10 <oerjan> `le/rn hacker/Jim Hacker is a former British prime minister.
00:13:29 <zzo38> I have designed a 134-bit VLIW microcode.
00:13:53 <oerjan> also wtf yafgc (don't read today's if you're not caught up and hate spoilers)
00:19:11 <boily> Yet Another Fungot Got Cherries?
00:19:22 <oerjan> Yet Another Fantasy Gamer Comic
00:19:36 <zzo38> It is also a kind of OISC VLIW
00:20:33 <oerjan> boily: the current arc is extremely dark, and that's for a comic whose original main characters are _evil_ d&d monsters...
00:21:04 <oerjan> (it's since grown a large number of good characters as well)
00:21:32 -!- ybden has quit (Quit: *yawns*).
00:22:01 <boily> oh. can't read it. clashing with my vegan aura.
00:22:23 <oerjan> it's also occasionally nsfw, but it's sunday so...
00:24:27 <oerjan> today's it's 10th anniversary btw and the author decided to make that coincide with a very major event.
00:26:03 <oerjan> boily: i think your vegan aura chickened out years ago, anyway.
00:26:41 <boily> it's just an aura, nothing substantial.
00:27:01 <boily> I accidentaly made vegan food for supper >_>'...
00:27:09 <oerjan> like a carnivore aura but even lighter?
00:27:38 <shachaf> oerjan: i assume that the itymology of "it's" is "its"
00:27:46 <boily> a vegan aura doesn't even cast a ghostly shadow.
00:28:06 <oerjan> shachaf: i blame the "today's" affecting my neurons
00:30:59 <HackEgo> Itymology is the science of understanding the true meaning of a statement.
00:31:18 -!- adu has joined.
00:34:14 <shachaf> :33 < i use my shipping wall to track pairs of people who are items
00:34:21 <shachaf> which makes me an itemologist, of course
00:36:48 <boily> chillaxing while the AC does its thing.
00:37:33 <boily> (well, it will have done its thing in an hour or two. just started it; it's become disturbingly humid.)
00:37:38 <lambdabot> CYUL 292300Z 16011KT 15SM FEW080 SCT120 OVC250 26/19 A2993 RMK AC1AC2CI5 SLP136 DENSITY ALT 1400FT
00:38:00 <adu> boily: do I know you?
00:38:12 <quintopia> ive been coerced into someone elses family gathering
00:38:32 <boily> your family? someone else's family? will you survive?
00:38:37 <fizzie> Was it an unsafe coerce?
00:39:02 <adu> boily: My name is Andrew, but you may call me adu, you may not call me abu, if you do I will ignore you for all of time
00:40:14 <shachaf> May I call your father abu adu?
00:40:30 <boily> quintopia's condition sounds scary.
00:40:47 <adu> shachaf: "Why about" is not english, what is your native language?
00:41:09 <shachaf> That was only my fingers being affected by oerjan's neurons.
00:41:14 <boily> "why about" makes perfect sense hth.
00:41:24 <lambdabot> Local time for adu is 2016-05-29 19:42:08 -0400
00:41:35 <boily> oh, an east coaster!
00:41:46 <adu> what about east coasters?
00:41:54 <boily> East Coast Best Coast :D
00:42:08 <adu> nah, California is where it's at ;)
00:42:27 <adu> I think you meant "psfph"
00:42:39 <shachaf> boily: Not to be confused with <https://www.easterisland.travel/images//media/images/nature/coast-line-north-coast-easter-island-bay-cliffs-ocean.jpg>, I suppose.
00:43:02 <adu> shachaf: what coast is that?
00:43:05 <boily> adu: that was a French «pfeuh».
00:43:46 <adu> my timezone is EST, but my heart is in PST
00:44:24 <adu> shachaf: is that even *more* east than the east coast?
00:44:59 <boily> dd if=quintopia.iso of=/dev/KATL bs=4M conv=noerror
00:45:00 -!- shikhin has changed nick to sertie.
00:45:04 <shachaf> boily: http://a.dilcdn.com/bl/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2013/09/coast-coaster-set-east-2-460x460.jpg hth
00:45:32 -!- hydraz has changed nick to surtie.
00:45:44 <shachaf> boily: Bad news, Canada isn't part of the east coast.
00:45:47 <boily> quintopia: wait. you aren't KATLing anymore.
00:45:47 -!- sertie has changed nick to shikhin.
00:45:53 -!- shikhin has changed nick to sertie.
00:46:01 <adu> boily: did you say Klingon?
00:46:03 <boily> shachaf: we're appröximatively eastcoastal.
00:46:18 <boily> adu: nope. I haven't learned Klingon yet.
00:46:40 <adu> boily: good, neither have I, I spent too much time learning Haskell
00:50:27 <adu> any other Haskell fans here?
00:51:34 <adu> any Rust fans in here?
00:51:40 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover is confused, he thinks haskell is a brainfuck derivative
00:52:03 <Sgeo> Hi oerjan hi adu
00:52:13 <adu> Sgeo: cool
00:52:36 <Sgeo> Made several libraries for Rust including take_mut
00:52:44 <oerjan> > var "No Haskellers here"
00:53:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DJMcMayhem * New user account
00:53:11 <adu> I've done very little in Rust, mainly because I have no time, but what I have done has shown me it's an incredibly productive language
00:53:33 <boily> adu: you should try Java.
00:53:37 <adu> Go is also productive, but it's too easy to make crap in it
00:53:56 <adu> Java is for crappy people to make crappy software, no thanks
00:54:28 * Sgeo goes *ahem* with the generic Go criticism that Go has no generics
00:54:45 <adu> Sgeo: I never said that
00:54:51 <shachaf> I suspect that I'd rather write Java than Go.
00:55:20 <Sgeo> shachaf, some Java libraries can be painful in ways the language doesn't force
00:55:27 <adu> Sgeo: unless you're talking about my blog: http://straymindcough.blogspot.com/2011/01/golang-proposals.html
00:55:48 <shachaf> Sgeo: Yes, the average Java culture is surely worse than the Java language.
00:55:51 <Sgeo> I vaguely recall one standard lib api returning null instead of an empty list for something
00:56:06 <oerjan> adu: btw shachaf and Taneb wrote about half of lens, i think.
00:56:26 <adu> oerjan: do you mean what I think you mean?
00:56:31 <adu> oerjan! hi
00:57:03 <adu> as in every function is attached to it's own undo function?
00:57:09 <oerjan> (also above statement _may_ be wildly exaggerated. i'm just not sure of it.)
00:57:17 <oerjan> adu: wait, you know haskell but not lens?
00:57:32 <adu> oerjan: apparently
00:57:46 <oerjan> shachaf: hey i was writing that
00:58:12 <shachaf> oerjan: maybe you'd know more if you joined #haskell-lens hth
00:58:21 <adu> what's haskell-lens?
00:59:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47084&oldid=44813 * DJMcMayhem * (+374) Added description of "Golfing languages"
00:59:48 <oerjan> shachaf: yes but then my brain would get regularly overloaded tdnh
01:00:19 <oerjan> adu: it's the channel for the real haskell experts hth
01:00:32 <shachaf> oerjan: itym twnh hth hand
01:01:03 <oerjan> shachaf: are you trying to make a tense moment?
01:01:11 <adu> I think I stopped using Haskell around 2010, possibly because I read a paper by Oleg detailing how to construct a Hashtable purely on the type level, without using any memory, and my brain exploded
01:01:39 <oerjan> adu: ah. a lot has happened since then.
01:02:30 <oerjan> nowadays you probably don't even need to be Oleg to do that.
01:03:23 <shachaf> oerjan isn't letting on how he uses all sorts of fancy type system extensions to exploit GHC bugs as a hobby
01:03:42 <oerjan> shachaf: that was _last_ winter, sheesh.
01:03:44 <adu> I just want solid software
01:04:02 <adu> I think Rust is better at delivering it than Haskell
01:04:03 <oerjan> i have hardly touched haskell since october, when my computer crashed.
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01:04:13 <adu> oerjan: why did it crash?
01:04:15 <shachaf> oerjan: Are those related?
01:04:32 <adu> oerjan: I can send you a linux netbook
01:04:33 <oerjan> shachaf: yes. i never installed ghc on the new hard disk.
01:04:49 <shachaf> oerjan: But you can just Haskell it up on the computer you use for IRC.
01:05:19 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm not sure they would appreciate me installing ghc as a user...
01:05:27 <oerjan> otoh they might not even notice.
01:05:34 <shachaf> You can install GHC in your home directory, no problem.
01:05:37 <oerjan> shachaf: the admins on the machine i irc from...
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01:07:19 <oerjan> adu: hard disk sector error, somewhere in the middle of the OS.
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01:07:48 <oerjan> i could boot it, and use it, but i couldn't leave it alone for 10 minutes without it rebooting.
01:08:07 <shachaf> oerjan: You could install GHC 8 now.
01:08:14 <shachaf> And provide the rest of us with a trip report.
01:08:27 <oerjan> shachaf: i know. maybe when i get that far in /r/haskell.
01:09:20 <shachaf> why would you read reddit, though
01:09:23 <int-e> installing ghc 8.0.1 is easy
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01:09:45 <int-e> I've built lambdabot with it (patching a few packages on the way), but not dared to test it.
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01:10:40 <int-e> see also https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/issues/145
01:10:57 <shachaf> you should upgrade lambdabot to ghc 8 so i can try it out twh
01:11:25 <int-e> working on it... but I need sleep
01:11:36 <int-e> so next weekend... hopefully
01:11:52 * oerjan wishes github had responsive web pages
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01:13:21 <shachaf> oerjan: What pages do you wish were responsive?
01:14:21 <oerjan> shachaf: like the one int-e linked, when i zoom it doesn't reflow
01:14:52 <shachaf> you have to upgrade your eyes to use github
01:15:10 * shachaf wishes there was something as good as Google Code Search
01:15:35 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm pretty sure trying to use github was what _really_ crashed my computer.
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01:22:39 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas <b_jonas> hehe, even John Baez reports about the small Turing machines stuff in his blog: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/diary/ <-- he already wrote about it in his _other_ blog
01:23:59 <int-e> hmm, new small TM stuff?
01:25:04 <oerjan> hm i think it's just what i already saw
01:25:28 <int-e> okay, Stefan O'Rear delivered on his promise that he could improve the bounds
01:25:40 <oerjan> maybe it wasn't linked here but https://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2016/05/21/the-busy-beaver-game/
01:25:57 <int-e> two weeks ago, but I had not seen it anyway.
01:26:24 <oerjan> i guess i found it from aaronson's blog at it wasn't mentioned directly here
01:27:44 <oerjan> hm he has a new blog post about very long proofs
01:29:16 <oerjan> https://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2016/05/28/very-long-proofs/
01:29:39 * oerjan ponders whether to bite the bullet and subscribe to the rss
01:30:40 <shachaf> oerjan: did you hear ddarius has one of these post websites too now
01:30:52 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i just use IE?
01:31:19 <zzo38> I found that fully open source FPGA toolchain does exist, for use with iCE40 FPGAs. I don't know if this toolchain is compatible with non-x86 computers, but I expect it could probably be ported if you want to.
01:31:41 * oerjan vaguely recalls the nick ddarius but not why he should be particularly interested.
01:32:37 <oerjan> in fact, i don't recall anything about the nick other than _maybe_ a vague haskell vibe.
01:33:16 <shachaf> this person http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/user/1510
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02:18:03 <zzo38> Apparently VAX microcode is 188-bits VLIW, which is what User:Ian wrote at least
02:19:00 <tswett> Let's see, how many parameters does my neural net have, again? It's...
02:19:48 <tswett> > let s = 144 in (256+1)*s + 6*(s+1)*s + (s+1)*256
02:20:14 <tswett> It would be neat if it managed to memorize this tinyshakespeare file.
02:20:42 <tswett> I'm pretty sure that's impossible.
02:22:05 <tswett> tinyshakespeare has about 1.1 million characters. English text tends to have an entropy of roughly approximately 1 bit per character. That means this file has about a million bits of entropy.
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02:41:26 <oerjan> `learn An infidel is someone who doesn't support the great former leader. Socialismo o muerte!
02:41:43 <HackEgo> Learned 'infidel': An infidel is someone who doesn't support the great former leader. Socialismo o muerte!
02:46:14 <zzo38> User:Ian also wrote that SHARC has hardware COME FROM; how does that work?
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03:11:54 <shachaf> whoa, it's undecidable whether two finite state transducers are equivalent?
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03:15:47 <HackEgo> a-é-ro-g-liss-e-ur. If you mention eels, you'll get smacked with one of them in a most unappropriate manner.
03:17:28 <shachaf> oerjan: is hovercraft the dual of minecraft
03:18:11 <oerjan> unless that's yourscraft
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03:39:26 <HackEgo> 514) <elliott> When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a monad.
03:39:37 <HackEgo> 705) <oklofok> you tell us you're making a lisp interpreter, but you don't mention its polterchrist is c++ templates? <oklofok> isn't that like telling us you're taking a bath and not mentioning you're bathing in a WORLD FULL OF SNAKES
03:39:38 <HackEgo> 8) <Madelon> Lil`Cube: you had cavity searches? <Lil`Cube> not yet <Lil`Cube> trying to thou, just so I can check it off on my list of things to expirence
03:39:39 <HackEgo> 919) <augur> DIE <augur> oh hey elliott
03:39:40 <HackEgo> 602) <twice11> Yeah, statistics with 2 data points is science. Statistics with one data point is crap. <twice11> You measure a third point if you need an error estimate.
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03:40:08 <shachaf> i'm too biased to take action here
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03:44:05 <tswett> I wonder how that Madelon quote got there.
04:02:25 <oerjan> tswett: i think way back, HackEgo used to be on another channel and some of the oldest quotes have lingered.
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04:31:57 <zzo38> Do you understand what I wrote about the microcodes of my new kind of computer design by now?
04:33:28 <shachaf> No. I don't think I even read it.
04:33:55 <izabera> idk it sounded like a burn
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04:34:32 <zzo38> Then read and see what it says. I don't know all of the what it work so hopefully other people can help it too
04:34:59 <shachaf> zzo38: Is this about VAX microcode?
04:35:27 <izabera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burn
04:35:50 <zzo38> No, I mean my own design
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06:27:04 <oerjan> @let newtype A = A deriving Typeable
06:27:04 <lambdabot> Parse failed: newtype declaration constructor must have exactly one parameter.
06:27:20 <oerjan> @let newtype A = A Int deriving Typeable
06:27:39 * oerjan was hoping for a warning
06:30:32 <oerjan> shachaf: there's a set of new pragmas that are affecting deriving, and i'm wondering if they've considered Typeable.
06:31:04 <shachaf> oerjan: that seems like an awfully pragmatic thing for you to worry about hth
06:32:04 <oerjan> well i don't want them to open up the Typeable hole again...
06:32:35 <oerjan> newtype A = A Int deriving {-# GND #-} Typeable would do that if it worked.
06:34:15 <shachaf> isn't it irritating how bug 10000 was marked as a duplicate
06:34:28 <oerjan> https://phabricator.haskell.org/D2280 btw
06:34:33 <shachaf> Before I reported it no one was thinking of it as a security issue.
06:36:49 <oerjan> hm what about Data? i don't know enough about that to know if that could be dangerous. oh well.
06:37:00 <oerjan> (they seem to have considered Generic.)
06:38:00 <shachaf> why does this wikipedia entry not have an english version twh https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%A7_(%D7%90%D7%99%D7%91%D7%A8)
06:39:10 <oerjan> thank god it has a norwegian one
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06:41:09 <oerjan> did you know that the norwegian wikipedia doesn't support the en: prefix :(
06:42:04 <oerjan> it sends you to the english wikipedia
06:42:35 <shachaf> Does anything support that?
06:43:00 <shachaf> Oh, English wikipedia support no:
06:43:16 <shachaf> Today I have to be mildly self-conscious about mistyping anything.
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06:43:51 <shachaf> oerjan: Wait, it works for me.
06:43:58 <hppavilion[1]> Hm... why do we use the metre-kilogram-second? I'd much prefer if we had some kilogram-equivalent unit that is a base unit
06:44:03 <shachaf> https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=en:No
06:44:53 <shachaf> Units are meant for people to use and only incidentally for physicists to execute.
06:45:10 <oerjan> shachaf: it doesn't work in the search box for me
06:45:32 <shachaf> oerjan: Hmm, it works in the search box for me.
06:46:52 <oerjan> shachaf: anyway, it looks like the english "leg" is ambiguous between meaning that or the whole leg
06:47:19 <oerjan> and the article for "human leg" connects to other wikipedia's latter meaning
06:47:55 <shachaf> oerjan: well, the hebrew word is "shok" hth
06:48:05 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: hysterical raisins hth
06:49:21 <hppavilion[1]> What's the "Planck Value"? The minimum amount of moneyness? :P
06:49:36 <oerjan> and the norwegian is "legg".
06:49:46 <shachaf> Are you pricing derivatives?
06:50:29 <shachaf> Don't destroy the US economy.
06:50:58 <shachaf> Maybe it should be destroyed.
06:51:07 <shachaf> With complicated derivatives, I hear.
06:51:19 <shachaf> Hodgell would probably be in favor of destroying it.
06:51:24 <hppavilion[1]> I'm setting the Planck Value at the price of one Planck Energy's worth of electricity. There.
06:51:51 <oerjan> shachaf: this time, use complex integrals hth
06:51:59 <hppavilion[1]> The Planck Minimum Wage is 1 Planck Value per Planck Time
06:52:21 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: by marxism, value = work so it should be the planck energy hth
06:53:00 <shachaf> It sounds like this planck value is priced by the market.
06:53:28 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Not really; we assume maximum efficiency with generation
06:53:53 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: And that the market sells at the exact amount of value it takes to produce, which is obviously not correct, but lets pretend it is
06:54:09 <shachaf> > editDistance "marxist" "market"
06:54:39 <hppavilion[1]> Well, assuming deletions cost as much as replacements
06:54:52 <shachaf> If you want something to do, invent a derivative that lets me hedge and bet on future liquidity.
06:55:47 <hppavilion[1]> It's obviously about avoiding doing one planck energy's worth of work
06:56:02 <shachaf> You have to model liquidity nonlinearly.
06:56:11 <shachaf> But solidity can be modeled with a matrix.
06:57:44 <shachaf> If you want something to do, figure out how to set the tick size (minimum price increment) for a market.
06:58:04 <shachaf> It's a tricky question. You don't want it too fine or too coarse.
06:58:20 <shachaf> US equity markets use $0.01 as the tick size since ~2000. Before that I think they used $⅛?
06:58:22 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: That's easy; just become a politician and get other politicians to vote to set it to the desired value
06:59:47 <shachaf> I mean, from the perspective of someone who wants a market that achieves the goals that society wants it to achieve, figure out how to decide on a tick size.
07:00:05 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: That's also easy; consult your nearest mathematician
07:00:20 <shachaf> Why would mathematicians know?
07:00:44 <hppavilion[1]> (BTW, there needs to be a Mathematician General in the US. Someone to put warnings on lottery tickets)
07:00:47 <shachaf> If all you're going to do is make jokes in #esoteric, at least make them good jokes.
07:01:34 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Mon May 30 08:01:30 2016
07:02:03 <shachaf> If you're too tired to be funny, it's a good cue to stop making jokes.
07:02:08 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Pfft. It doesn't measure down to the planck time, and it doesn't measure since the big bang.
07:02:14 <shachaf> Perhaps I'm just too much of a grouch.
07:03:41 <shachaf> It's a holiday in Alaska tomorrow.
07:03:45 <shachaf> You have no excuse anyway.
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07:36:35 <shachaf> I think I'm too much of a grouch nowadays.
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09:03:01 <b_jonas> why the heck do splash screens (for software starting up) use always on top windows?
09:21:08 <gamemanj> wasting CPU: It's the new optimization!
09:24:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Maximngy * New user account
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09:47:25 <b_jonas> Man, I hate wordpress. Its web interface makes it so difficult to list or find earlier blog entries.
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09:57:08 <gamemanj> b_jonas: because everyone's using it
09:58:55 <gamemanj> I know that seems a tautology, but...
09:59:04 <gamemanj> Everybody uses it because everybody uses it
10:10:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[++brainfuck++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=47085 * Maximngy * (+1447) ++brainfuck++ writed by me
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10:11:21 <b_jonas> gamemanj: no, I think it's more like that the rest of the people use google's blogger, which is almost as bad. it also doesn't let you list or find old posts.
10:11:57 <gamemanj> eh. just write a Lua script to compile your blog into a static site. problem solved.
10:12:26 <gamemanj> no compile problems, and Lua seems to be rather portable so you don't have to worry about GEM NOT FOUND
10:13:01 <gamemanj> (why bother with external libraries)
10:16:35 <b_jonas> gamemanj: I know there are good blog sites. I'm just complaining because most aren't, and as a reader, it's sometimes easier to just download the entire fucking blog and do a local search to find something.
10:16:59 <b_jonas> And I don't mean full text search. I can't even list the titles of article titles through the web interface.
10:17:08 <b_jonas> Neither wordpress nor blogger allows that.
10:17:15 <lifthrasiir> gamemanj: did you ever use lua for not-so-small programs?
10:17:33 <b_jonas> They're just showing the last few articles, and hides everything else quite well.
10:17:50 <gamemanj> lifthrasiir: I've found Lua patterns to be very useful for parsing...
10:18:39 <lifthrasiir> I've done so, and the overall experience was quite painful
10:18:58 <lifthrasiir> (for one data point: I've worked through 300K lines of Lua code at the daily job)
10:19:28 <lifthrasiir> and overall quality of Lua libraries is close to abysmal
10:19:38 <gamemanj> Hmm... depends which libraries...
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10:19:56 <gamemanj> io.popen's downright stupid "read or write, pick one!"
10:20:35 <gamemanj> but then again that's not actually Lua's fault
10:20:55 <gamemanj> popen's a wrapper around C stdlib popen which is equally broken
10:21:52 <lifthrasiir> gamemanj: right. but unlike C you are forced to use another bindings for that purpose, and I think there are not always bindings for such mistakes
10:22:20 <lifthrasiir> gamemanj: os.time was another catch for me
10:22:40 <lifthrasiir> Lua 5.3 doesn't, but prior versions were not thread-safe
10:22:49 <lifthrasiir> and it gave some confusing values from time to time
10:23:05 <lifthrasiir> gamemanj: localtime, not localtime_r. this explains all
10:23:12 <gamemanj> (I've never had that myself but it's worrying
10:24:10 <lifthrasiir> that kind of mistakes. it is fine to make mistakes, just give us a way of fix things *in place*!
10:24:46 <lifthrasiir> I think even the most recent release of Lua 5.2 had this bug (and we had to use Lua 5.1 for, uh, some reason)
10:25:16 <gamemanj> There's even more fun caused by Lua's obsession with the standard library, though..
10:25:33 <lifthrasiir> there is even no real compatibility between minor versions
10:25:36 <gamemanj> no ability to list directories
10:25:48 <gamemanj> huh, I've never encountered problems with compatibility myself, but ok
10:26:07 <gamemanj> The standard library is full of holes, but so is C stdlib...
10:26:12 <lifthrasiir> gamemanj: if you look at manuals for Lua 5.1, 5.2 and 5.3, the list of functions is very similar-looking and yet slightly different
10:26:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Maximngy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=47086 * Maximngy * (+226) Created page with "Hi!!! <p>I'm programmer on Python, Small Basic, work in Arduino IDE (language based on C) and PHP DevelStudio</p> <p>Thats esoteric languages wroted by me :</p> * [https://eso..."
10:26:38 <lifthrasiir> you cannot safely run 5.1 code in 5.2 or 5.3
10:27:13 <lifthrasiir> this is kind of ignorance that even PHP does not have
10:28:03 <gamemanj> I might just be lucky, but I haven't run into those problems.
10:28:10 <lifthrasiir> enough rants. Lua is in theory good for what it's good for, but in reality (even for supposed uses) I think it is worse.
10:29:06 <gamemanj> Well, for embedding behavior at least it hasn't managed too badly - it doesn't have the massive weight of Python's standard libraries, for one...
10:29:11 <lifthrasiir> (while I was working with 300K loc project in the daily job, I also worked in much smaller scale and the problem remained so...)
10:30:39 <lifthrasiir> gamemanj: I see that is partly a fetishism; you can definitely have a reasonable set of features without dependency and platform hell, SQLite did that fine for example.
10:33:31 <lifthrasiir> gamemanj: I once wondered to the point that the whole Lua fiasco^Wproject is for fueling projects to PUC-Rio :S
10:34:07 <lifthrasiir> that should be partly true (not "fiasco" part though), as many initial libraries for Lua were developed from PUC-Rio
10:34:31 <lifthrasiir> not to mention that the libraries were of questionable quality IMO
10:35:41 <gamemanj> By "initial libraries", do you mean the standard library or modules?
10:35:52 <lifthrasiir> gamemanj: nope---something like LuaSocket I meant.
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10:36:22 <lifthrasiir> they have either questionable quality or questionable design choice, sometimes both
10:37:31 <lifthrasiir> for example, LuaSocket had made a questionable choice to implement socket timeout with select
10:37:50 <lifthrasiir> that works, but quite different from what we normally expect
10:38:17 <lifthrasiir> and that choice breaks down when LuaSocket is used with LuaSec (no proper timeout for TLS connection, what the fuck)
10:38:38 <gamemanj> just read the docs on client:receive
10:38:44 <gamemanj> they changed it and made it worse
10:39:53 <lifthrasiir> gamemanj: it also returns a no-one-would-know third return!
10:40:19 <gamemanj> exactly - in the case of, say, a gopher server automatically closing the connection after send
10:40:25 <gamemanj> you'd probably lose data if you weren't really careful
10:40:35 <lifthrasiir> (I knew that since I once stepped over that brick, fuck)
10:41:16 <gamemanj> If the rest of the channel minds then that's a problem
10:41:35 <gamemanj> I'll agree with you LuaSocket looks nuts just by the definition of client:receive
10:42:26 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: when are you going to fix haskellwiki
10:42:37 <gamemanj> It's the kind of thing that should probably be wrapped, so that it returns the data, and then the error on the next call
10:42:40 <HackEgo> phantom_hooover? ¯\(°_o)/¯
10:43:05 <gamemanj> The difference is a race condition anyway...
10:48:25 <Yurume_> gamemanj : (lifthrasiir here, moving to mobile) I was at least fortunate to be able to work on Lua type checker though, the entire team was REALLY frustrated over Lua
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10:51:25 <gamemanj> Yurume_: one quick search to figure out how such a dramatic nickname change could occur
10:56:03 <Yurume_> gamemanj : I have some dozens of nicknames
10:57:21 <gamemanj> I keep to "gamemanj". Or if I'm trying to be sneaky, I append "-" and then the English name of a greek letter.
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14:47:58 <HackEgo> quadrilateral//Don't you mean "tetrapleur"?
14:47:58 <HackEgo> Dark Offering \ 4BB \ Sorcery \ Destroy target nonblack creature. You gain 3 life. \ P2-U, S99-U
14:47:58 <HackEgo> pineapple; \ water until lightly blended over and remove from pan. Add \ strands of butter, mixed well, adding the oil, oregano, beater over low \ heat, covered, for 15 minutes. \ Store in a bowl, add the sugar, carrots, and \ shortening. \ \ Recipe By : \ \ MMMMM \ \ MMMMM----- Recipe via Meal-Master (tm) v8.05 \ \ Title: EMPSPUTETS
14:48:20 <HackEgo> n \ its take it to feed been and all the vegetables. \ Add the ice apple beans, with, onion, and pepper. Pour in the \ 2 tablespoon of the whipped cream into the pan in lightly floured \ get and deep flour and including for 1 hour. Top with side of \ the sugar, chopped fresh chop more. \ \ Recipe By : Low-Bobbie Cooking \ \ MMMMM \ \ MM
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15:02:34 <fizzie> It usually *is* quick after it's been pre-warmed.
15:04:08 <fizzie> It's kinda-sorta out of memory: http://sprunge.us/DYBA
15:07:10 <fizzie> Though I'm not so sure as to why. RSS'es of all processes sum up to 537148k only.
15:13:04 <b_jonas> should I make a bot to continuously pre-warn him and keep everything cached in?
15:14:17 <HackEgo> tar: Removing leading `/' from member names \ tar: /sys/fs/ext4/features/meta_bg_resize: File shrank by 4096 bytes; padding with zeros \ tar: /sys/fs/ext4/features/batched_discard: File shrank by 4096 bytes; padding with zeros \ tar: /sys/fs/ext4/features/lazy_itable_init: File shrank by 4096 bytes; padding with zeros \ tar: /sys/bus/cpu/uevent: Ca
15:15:45 <b_jonas> ``` tar c / --warning=none | wc -c
15:15:54 <int-e> fizzie: well the HackEgo VM is competing with other VMs on the same host... you won't see that inside the VM.
15:16:19 <HackEgo> tar: Removing leading `/' from member names \ tar: /sys/bus/cpu/uevent: Cannot open: Permission denied \ tar: /sys/bus/cpu/drivers_probe: Cannot open: Permission denied \ tar: /sys/bus/clocksource/uevent: Cannot open: Permission denied \ tar: /sys/bus/clocksource/drivers_probe: Cannot open: Permission denied \ tar: /sys/bus/workqueue/uevent: Cannot
15:16:37 <int-e> ``` du -s / 2>/dev/null
15:17:18 <b_jonas> but I said --warning=none! why does it still warn
15:17:20 <HackEgo> none on /bin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/bin/) \ none on /usr type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/usr/) \ none on /dev type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/dev/) \ none on /opt type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/opt/) \ none on /lib type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/lib/) \ none on /sbin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/sbin/) \ none on /lib64 type host
15:17:27 <b_jonas> ``` tar c / 2>/dev/null | wc -c
15:17:30 <int-e> b_jonas: those are errros
15:18:09 <b_jonas> probably times out before it can read everything
15:18:17 <b_jonas> ``` tar c . 2>/dev/null | wc -c && echo home
15:18:27 <b_jonas> ``` tar c ~ 2>/dev/null | wc -c && echo really home
15:18:50 <int-e> how is running it several times simultaneously supposed to help?
15:19:20 <int-e> HackEgo: stop contradicting me!
15:19:55 <b_jonas> ``` tar c . 2>/dev/null | wc -c && pwd
15:20:33 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$1" | rnooodl
15:24:15 <fizzie> Could you possibly maybe not do that?
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15:24:49 <b_jonas> fizzie: sorry, I'll stop now
15:45:51 <b_jonas> `random-card creature(?s:.*)suspend 1
15:45:53 <HackEgo> Rift Bolt \ 2R \ Sorcery \ Rift Bolt deals 3 damage to target creature or player. \ Suspend 1--{R} (Rather than cast this card from your hand, you may pay {R} and exile it with a time counter on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter. When the last is removed, cast it without paying its mana cost.) \ TSP-C, MMA-C
15:46:07 <b_jonas> `random-card ^creature(?s:.*)suspend 1
15:46:08 <HackEgo> Greater Gargadon \ 9R \ Creature -- Beast \ 9/7 \ Suspend 10--{R} \ Sacrifice an artifact, creature, or land: Remove a time counter from Greater Gargadon. Activate this ability only if Greater Gargadon is suspended. \ TSP-R, MMA-R
15:46:33 <b_jonas> `random-card ^creature(?s:.*)suspend 1\b
15:46:34 <HackEgo> Nantuko Shaman \ 2G \ Creature -- Insect Shaman \ 3/2 \ When Nantuko Shaman enters the battlefield, if you control no tapped lands, draw a card. \ Suspend 1--{2}{G}{G} (Rather than cast this card from your hand, you may pay {2}{G}{G} and exile it with a time counter on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter. When the last is rem
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15:57:26 <int-e> slightly tricky card
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17:15:45 <tswett> Isans thinr by royiof, the hawentem, will things, go rornase than shall you re sinlesh as urony. What I Mistrur, than wome mordy their'fn jome I bierion I topenduo'maves dafe Deathele to goort sensect.
17:16:02 <tswett> I guess English vocabulary is kind of a big thing to learn.
17:16:51 <tswett> It did successfully include a bunch of common words: by the will things go than shall you as what I than their I to
17:21:40 <tswett> Most of its attempts at putting in rare words have resulted in words that are plausible but wrong. Presumably, as the training continues, it will start to be able to produce real words.
17:26:20 <Cale> http://iplayif.com/?story=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ifarchive.org%2Fif-archive%2Fgames%2Fzcode%2Fgostak.z5
17:27:35 <Koen_> is that a very elaborate riddle?
17:28:19 <Koen_> it doesn't even recognise any of the dapes I type in
17:28:33 <Cale> For a jallon, louk JALLON.
17:31:47 <Cale> It will doatch at you about some heamy dapes.
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18:00:51 <tswett> At least, if you tunk the "heamy dapes" fesh.
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18:15:51 <tswett> I'm trying to figure out how to make it so my shamtag rasks the pogrifon again.
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18:21:48 <hppavilion[1]> http://xkcd.com/1665/ might be my favorite xkcd to date.
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18:27:01 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: nah, 1665 is totally unrealistic, no talk page has headings summarizing the content so cleanly.
18:27:27 <b_jonas> the content might be what's listed there, but you won't be able to find any of that from the toc
18:27:31 <gamemanj> Except for those fake decoy talk pages that people make to make something seem well-discussed.
18:30:47 <gamemanj> Actually, better, someone get a neural net to do it for us
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18:36:58 <fizzie> "Fire alarm cause & effect testing in progress -- sounders & life safety system will be tested persistently".
18:40:47 <tswett> All right... I'm gonna need to make a spreadsheet that glosses all these words.
18:41:37 <b_jonas> tswett: just put the explanations right into the wisdoms
18:41:50 <tswett> That's an interesting idea.
18:43:13 <tswett> `learn A shamtag is something that you durch in order to make it flome.
18:43:18 <HackEgo> Learned 'shamtag': A shamtag is something that you durch in order to make it flome.
18:43:57 <tswett> `learn A pogrifon is stim for a gostak's shamtag.
18:44:01 <HackEgo> Learned 'pogrifon': A pogrifon is stim for a gostak's shamtag.
18:44:16 <tswett> `learn The gostak distims the doshes.
18:44:20 <HackEgo> Learned 'gostak': The gostak distims the doshes.
18:44:45 <tswett> `learn The doshes are what the gostak distims.
18:44:48 <HackEgo> Learned 'doshe': The doshes are what the gostak distims.
18:44:57 <tswett> `mv wisdom/doshe wisdom/dosh
18:44:58 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `wisdom/doshe wisdom/dosh' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
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18:45:07 <tswett> `run mv wisdom/doshe wisdom/dosh
18:45:15 <HackEgo> The doshes are what the gostak distims.
18:45:24 <tswett> `run ln -s dosh wisdom/doshes
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18:57:49 <HackEgo> immen ndena taba thrift csdini decresslin pare ulp vocer craffecterrar clural gai hmf gree proflt rie stat mecora sch itr
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19:08:44 <HackEgo> ceratlond eusonfolke rab harian uni stari appp keparaded ofsne profen cesser westict sobenepa loake kamorp comountamaz treretermn gilliously impigal hydrania spact kosckscal kriihip forsat conre
19:08:45 <b_jonas> `words --canadian-english-insane 90
19:08:48 <HackEgo> saeidlade uncarbonalitatine ikawate julidegri sauthed unedly costalched unency bent pine halah coke wiredicologic lavarizati smayde bowl namilao hup jifframen oosemioma ola smooric tromersher kooltman weeding
19:08:48 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
19:09:47 <b_jonas> "jifframen" -- hmm, is that a food?
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19:31:38 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: The joke is that shadowfacts is a horse, but the correct term is "knight"
19:52:14 <int-e> http://static.nichtlustig.de/toondb/030128.html (doesn't translate very well...)
19:52:59 <int-e> something like "you better move away from there or the hors will attack you"
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20:20:42 <int-e> As a rough guideline, if you have to explain it it's not a joke.
20:22:18 <HackEgo> 50) <oklopol> hmm, this is hard
20:22:18 <HackEgo> 1192) <Bike> dude's made a career out of building electronic things out of slime molds. i respect that
20:22:19 <HackEgo> 583) <monqy> where is this going. why is this going.
20:22:19 <HackEgo> 926) <boily> not only there is no God, but try to find an APL keyboard on Sunday.
20:23:52 <gamemanj> it uses a lot of special symbols
20:24:27 <shachaf> Definitely the second one.
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21:09:23 <HackEgo> Vitaspore Thallid \ 1G \ Creature -- Fungus \ 1/1 \ At the beginning of your upkeep, put a spore counter on Vitaspore Thallid. \ Remove three spore counters from Vitaspore Thallid: Put a 1/1 green Saproling creature token onto the battlefield. \ Sacrifice a Saproling: Target creature gains haste until end of turn. \ PLC-C
21:09:48 <HackEgo> Cerulean Wisps \ U \ Instant \ Target creature becomes blue until end of turn. Untap that creature. \ Draw a card. \ SHM-C
21:09:52 <HackEgo> Cerulean Wisps \ U \ Instant \ Target creature becomes blue until end of turn. Untap that creature. \ Draw a card. \ SHM-C
21:11:55 <b_jonas> Koen_: no, it's Magic: the Gathering
21:12:09 <HackEgo> Abjure \ U \ Instant \ As an additional cost to cast Abjure, sacrifice a blue permanent. \ Counter target spell. \ WL-C
21:12:14 <HackEgo> Abjure \ U \ Instant \ As an additional cost to cast Abjure, sacrifice a blue permanent. \ Counter target spell. \ WL-C
21:12:21 <b_jonas> why do you repeat the result?
21:12:37 <b_jonas> there's way more instants costing {U} than that
21:12:41 <HackEgo> Enchantment Alteration \ U \ Instant \ Attach target Aura attached to a creature or land to another permanent of that type. \ LE-C, CH-U, US-U
21:12:44 <HackEgo> Nix \ U \ Instant \ Counter target spell if no mana was spent to cast it. \ FUT-R
21:12:53 <Koen_> maybe the random number generator is actually a deterministic function of the time
21:14:47 <HackEgo> Intervene \ U \ Instant \ Counter target spell that targets a creature. \ UL-C
21:14:50 <HackEgo> Confound \ 1U \ Instant \ Counter target spell that targets one or more creatures. \ Draw a card. \ PS-C
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21:52:30 <tswett> This gostak game is confusing.
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22:28:42 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I prefer the Russel game, where you win by losing.
22:30:13 <shovel_boss> an attempt to deceive someone into believing that one can or will do something.
22:30:47 <hppavilion[1]> shovel_boss: Are you a native english speaker? Because that sentence doesn't grammar.
22:31:25 <hppavilion[1]> shovel_boss: Well, there should be an "a" in there
22:31:43 <hppavilion[1]> is <something> a <noun> seems to be what you were looking for
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22:32:29 <Koen_> is this a channel sugar?
22:33:02 <hppavilion[1]> shovel_boss: In that case, it would be "is this channel sugar" or "is this channel made of sugar" or something like that
22:33:32 <shovel_boss> if you dont understand me i dont see how you can understand the esoteric
22:33:37 <hppavilion[1]> shovel_boss: But this channel is not the same as (as in, this channel is bluff and bluff is this channel) or made of "bluff", so it is "a bluff"
22:33:46 <hppavilion[1]> shovel_boss: We use english to communicate the esoteric
22:34:10 <hppavilion[1]> shovel_boss: Because to explore the esoteric, one must start with something simple and non-esoteric
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22:34:16 <shovel_boss> you cant switch object and subject like that
22:34:30 <Koen_> is hppavilion bluff?
22:34:55 <Koen_> it was worth asking
22:35:23 <hppavilion[1]> shovel_boss: I'm not sure; it's one of those weird little parts of english we don't understand, but that's always there
22:35:47 <Koen_> shovel_boss: this channel is no bluff though
22:35:50 <Koen_> @bf 64+"!dlroW ,olleH">:#,_@
22:35:57 <Koen_> okay maybe that was a bluff
22:36:08 <Koen_> @ befunge 64+"!dlroW ,olleH">:#,_@
22:36:17 <hppavilion[1]> shovel_boss: I think it's because "bluff" is primarily a verb, maybe?
22:36:18 <Koen_> @befunge 64+"!dlroW ,olleH">:#,_@
22:36:27 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
22:37:25 <hppavilion[1]> shovel_boss: I think the best way to explain it is... "bluff" is... a description; it isn't a type. It can't be bluff, but can be a bluff, for the same reason a dog can't be barker, but can be a barker? If we allow "barker" to be a real word describing "something that barks"?
22:38:11 <Koen_> I'm pretty sure you sniped yourself hppavilion[1]
22:38:31 <hppavilion[1]> Koen_: Unless shovel_boss said that just to get me to, in which case he sniped me
22:39:05 <Koen_> then he is a visionnaire
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22:46:10 <shovel_boss> can someone explain what this channel is about
22:46:30 -!- ^^v has joined.
22:46:40 <shovel_boss> enlightenment?the topic does a poor job doing that
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22:46:51 <shovel_boss> the pdf looks like its written by a schizo
22:47:35 <int-e> it's the channel's collected *cough*wisdom
22:48:04 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts.
22:48:51 <int-e> that's right. don't let yourself be misled by the actual discussions.
22:49:04 <shachaf> Did you just join this channel to be a jerk or something?
22:51:35 <int-e> fungot: what do you know about jerks?
22:51:36 <fungot> int-e: the phrase " broadly regarded as illegal" seems to be called gulf saint vincent as well, i think
22:52:47 <b_jonas> fungot, do you know keith bird of sixth breeze
22:52:47 <fungot> b_jonas: soft money loophole, by maverick reformer? thoughts?
22:53:24 <int-e> fungot: why so demanding?
22:53:25 <fungot> int-e: a) i noticed that in the us navy and marine corps use the term " black ice" is also wrong in the background is completely unfit for this article
22:53:38 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp* youtube
22:53:45 <fungot> Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages)
22:53:50 <b_jonas> fungot, is that made with seadust?
22:53:50 <fungot> b_jonas: this article talk page was automatically added with tlwikiproject food and drink.
22:55:35 <shovel_boss> is there a channel for the old esoteric, literature?
22:55:55 <shovel_boss> the real esoteric, not some made up arbitrary concepts
22:57:20 <shachaf> There's a welcome message that talks about where you can talk about that.
22:57:31 <b_jonas> fungot, is this channel a sugar? or more like fat?
22:57:32 <fungot> b_jonas: i'm coming up with some documentation of this before i fnord change anything. sweet potatoes were still indigenous to the andes of south america. either way, it is not for teenage pop-culture atheism with a fnord ( fnord)
22:57:32 <shachaf> But I'm not particularly welcoming right now.
22:58:25 <b_jonas> Besides the welcome message, I think there's a channel topic, a chanserv channel join notice, and a wiki.
23:00:15 <b_jonas> fungot, do you often suppress your emotions?
23:00:15 <fungot> b_jonas: i've just added a link to the article are missing from the article. fnord 02:50, 12 march 2006 ( utc)
23:00:41 <int-e> `welcome shovel_boss
23:00:46 <HackEgo> shovel_boss: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:03:26 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: topic: not found
23:04:03 <hppavilion[1]> @tell boily The wisdom entry for "cello" has slashes that should be replaced with italicization
23:04:25 <b_jonas> `learn ENTRYMSG for #esoteric is Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki>
23:04:30 <HackEgo> Learned 'entrymsg': ENTRYMSG for #esoteric is Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki>
23:04:44 <HackEgo> The high level stucture of Cello projects is inspired by /Haskell/, while the syntax and semantics are inspired by /Python/ and /Obj-C/.
23:06:47 <HackEgo> ᛁᚿ ᛋᚿᛅᚠᚠᛚᛚᛋ ᛁᚮᚴᚢᛚᛁᛋ ᚴᛦᛆᛏᛅᛦᛅᛘ ᚴᛅᛘ ᚦᛅᛚᛁᛒᛆᛏ ᚢᛘᛒᛦᛆ ᛋᚴᛆᛦᛏᛆᛦᛁᛋ ᛁᚢᛚᛁᛁ ᛁᚿᛏᛦᛆ ᚴᛆᛚᛅᚿᚦᛆᛋ ᚦᛅᛋᚴᛅᚿᚦᛅ, ᛆᚢᚦᛆᛋ ᚢᛁᛆᛏᚮᛦ, ᛏᛅ ᛏᛅᛦᛦᛅᛋᛏᛦᛅ ᚴᛅᚿᛏᛦᚢᛘ ᛆᛏᛏᛁᚿg
23:08:03 <b_jonas> `? zygohistomorphic prepromorphism
23:08:05 <HackEgo> A zygohistomorphic prepromorphism is used when you really need both semi-mutual recursion and history and to repeatedly apply a natural transformation as you get deeper into the functor.
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23:13:14 <HackEgo> [U+16E6 RUNIC LETTER LONG-BRANCH-YR]
23:13:46 <int-e> ah, surfing on the beech...
23:14:09 <HackEgo> Puns are fun. Ask shachaf about them. But beware of Muphry adding misspellings.
23:17:20 <int-e> . o O ( Pugs are a breed of dogs that are overrepresented in the Sheldon webcomic. )
23:17:56 <HackEgo> 00000000000000: 5075 6e73 2061 7265 2066 756e 2e20 4173 Puns are fun. As \ 00000010: 6b20 7368 6163 680f 6166 2061 626f 7574 k shach.af about \ 00000020: 2074 6865 6d2e 2042 7574 2062 6577 6172 them. But bewar \ 0000030: 6520 6f66 204d 7570 6872 7920 6164 6469 e of Muphry addi \ 0000040: 6e67 206d 6973 7370 656c 6c69 6e67 732e ng misspellings
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00:31:36 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a wikipedia-like site for "what should have been"?
01:01:27 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: conservapedia hth
01:02:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Eric * New user account
01:11:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:General disclaimer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47087&oldid=13314 * Eric * (+43)
01:14:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:General disclaimer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47088&oldid=47087 * Eric * (+60)
01:22:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:General disclaimer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47089&oldid=47088 * Eric * (+71)
01:24:58 <HackEgo> Color is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu.
01:25:56 <oerjan> that's a wiki of a different lor.
01:27:33 <HackEgo> Colour is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu.
01:28:33 <hppavilion[1]> I want to change the entry so every word has a 'u' one letter before the end, but I don't know how to do that without fucking up the fanciousity
01:28:55 <hppavilion[1]> sed seems like the way to do it, but I can't think of the proper way
01:29:38 <oerjan> i shall leave the advicing on this to shachaf.
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01:46:12 <HackEgo> The Fundamental Theorem of Taneb? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:46:48 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/*Taneb*: No such file or directory
01:47:23 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, no, that means that there isn't a file like that
01:47:39 <HackEgo> wisdom/fundamental theorem of taneb wisdom/people who taneb is not wisdom/taneb wisdom/tanebvention wisdom/tanebventory
01:48:00 <HackEgo> The Fundamental Theorem of Taneb states that for all strings S, if S describes a thing, then it is provable that Taneb invented the thing described by S; and, furthermore, that it is provable that there exists a string T that describes a thing that Taneb did not invent.
01:49:14 <hppavilion[1]> forall x: invented(Taneb, x) && exists x: ~invented(Taneb, x) seems to be impossible (where the domain of x is "things")
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01:51:26 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: no, that's an example of "omega-inconsistency"
01:51:28 <fizzie> `` sed -e 's/\([a-z]\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)* \)/u\1/g' wisdom/colour
01:51:30 <HackEgo> Colouur ius ua phenomenoun froum outeur spacue designeud tuo drivue humanituy insanue anud brinug fortuh thue neuw ague ouf Cthu
01:51:52 <oerjan> where you can prove something exists but also that every possible example isn't it
01:52:41 <fizzie> There's a lot of redundant (in the sense of being immediately followed by another) color codes in the entry.
01:52:52 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: because a proof has to be finite, so you cannot collect all the counterexamples into a proof no example exists
01:53:19 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: If you require that the word be at least 4 letters long, it'll fit
01:53:52 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: not quite, although interestingly, Godel's original incompleteness proof had a weakness related to that
01:53:55 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Also, "BDSM" describes a thing that exists. Taneb
01:54:04 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of eight genders, and voluminous but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
01:54:15 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, gazpacho, Stephen Wolfram, Go, submarine jousting, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, Lambek's lemma, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
01:54:20 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: yes, it's inconsistent with other facts
01:54:43 <hppavilion[1]> Therefor, the Fundamental Theorem of Taneb is false.
01:55:53 <fizzie> `` sed -e 's/\([a-z]\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)*[a-z]\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)*[a-z]\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)*\)\([a-z]\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)* \)/\1u\5/g' wisdom/colour
01:55:55 <HackEgo> Colouur is a phenomenoun froum outeur spacue designeud to drivue humanituy insanue and brinug fortuh the new age of Cthul
01:56:37 <HackEgo> Gray is e common misspalling of grey.
01:57:49 <fizzie> `` sed -e 's/\([a-z]\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)*[a-z]\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)*[a-z]\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)*\)\([a-z]\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)* \)/\1u\5/g' -e 's/louur/lour/' -e 's/\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)*\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)/\2/g' wisdom/colour
01:57:51 <HackEgo> Colour is a phenomenoun froum outeur spacue designeud to drivue humanituy insanue and brinug fortuh the new age of Cthulhu.
01:57:59 <fizzie> De-redundanting it works, though.
01:58:07 <fizzie> `` sed -i -e 's/\([a-z]\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)*[a-z]\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)*[a-z]\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)*\)\([a-z]\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)* \)/\1u\5/g' -e 's/louur/lour/' -e 's/\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)*\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)/\2/g' wisdom/colour
01:58:08 <oerjan> fizzie: just strip the colors and add them back with rainbow afterwards?
01:58:17 <HackEgo> deredundantation? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:58:18 <fizzie> oerjan: But then I'd be *changing* them.
01:59:05 <fizzie> `` sed -i -e 's/\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)*\(\x03[0-9][0-9]\)/\2/g' wisdom/color # let's OPTOMIZE this as well
01:59:28 <hppavilion[1]> `learn Dereduntantation is the process of making things less redundant. It is typically done with either regexes or regular expressions.
01:59:32 <HackEgo> Learned 'dereduntantation': Dereduntantation is the process of making things less redundant. It is typically done with either regexes or regular expressions.
01:59:41 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: have you even read the Gray entry properly, i'm skeptical
02:00:47 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: The joke for Grey is that it's a chain of misspelling; like when you click google's "Do you mean" and it has another "Do you mean" in it
02:01:17 <oerjan> `le/rn Gey/I know nothing about Gey, sir.
02:02:53 <hppavilion[1]> When did most European companies give in and legalize Gay marriage?
02:03:10 <oerjan> very few companies have done that.
02:03:43 <hppavilion[1]> `learn Marriage was made legal in the United States on 2015-06-26
02:03:46 <HackEgo> Learned 'marriage': Marriage was made legal in the United States on 2015-06-26
02:03:49 <fizzie> Finland did it very recently -- in fact, I don't think the laws are quite in yet.
02:04:02 <oerjan> i'm not sure there was a particular time, they just started trickling in around 2000?
02:04:11 <Koen_> are you implying marriage wasn't legal in the us?
02:04:43 <fizzie> "Same-sex marriage will become legal in Finland on 1 March 2017. A bill for legalization was approved by the parliament on 12 December 2014 and signed by the President on 20 February 2015. In order to implement the law, follow-up changes in other acts were required. The legislative measure to make most of these changes was approved by the parliament on 17 February 2016 and signed by President ...
02:04:45 <hppavilion[1]> Koen_: But now that it is, there isn't a difference
02:04:52 <Koen_> I'm gonna go to bed
02:05:06 <oerjan> fizzie: has finland had a partnership law for years first, like norway did?
02:05:55 <Koen_> marriage is actually a very interesting topic, it's sad that so many people have too strong opinions to care discussing it
02:05:55 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, though it wasn't *quite* equal to marriage when it came to some things like adoption. Pretty close, though.
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02:06:11 <fizzie> And "for years" is a bit debatable, it's only been since 2002.
02:06:11 <Koen_> I mean, not marriage itself, but the involvement of the state in marriage
02:06:25 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 3h 2m 21s ago: The wisdom entry for "cello" has slashes that should be replaced with italicization
02:06:57 <boily> hppavellon[1]. good call! did I add you to the cocoonspirators?
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02:08:07 <oerjan> fizzie: neither was the norwegian one.
02:09:30 <boily> hppavilion[1]: the you should become one! for the low low price of your github account name!
02:10:19 <hppavilion[1]> Why do you have a tarp for people to fall into anyway.
02:10:52 <fizzie> I think https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_Finland#/media/File:Same_sex_marriage_map_Europe_detailed.svg implies that same-sex marriages become unregistered if you get on a boat on a lake.
02:11:32 <Koen_> so do you have to take your ring off everytime you board a boat on a lake?
02:11:54 <fizzie> And the question's entirely undefined if it's a sea.
02:11:58 <oerjan> sounds prone to accidents.
02:13:19 <boily> hppavilion[1]: tarp? nah, I ain't got no tarp, eh?
02:13:54 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Yeah; the sea doesn't even exist on the map
02:14:25 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Wait, have you checked for alpha filters? Maybe the ocean does it secretly, so it's invisible
02:18:56 <boily> I forgot who plays magic besides zzo38 in this here chännel...
02:24:08 <hppavilion[1]> I like reading Fox News because it reminds me how much stupider I could be and makes me happy for not being so.
02:24:25 <HackEgo> The doshes are what the gostak distims.
02:24:46 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: his neural nets are leaking into the wisdom
02:25:54 <boily> oerjan: I fear it was pretswetty hth → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gostak
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02:47:56 <HackEgo> 790) <Phantom__Hoover> the scene: it is a warm summer's day in scotland, although one obscured by cloud and the fact that it is september \ 1245) <ais523> (on another note, I love the way that the standard way to indicate that you get a reference is to make a different obscure reference to the same thing)
02:51:16 <tswett> Are there any solutions to a^n + b^p = c^q, where {a, b, c} = {2, 3, 5} and n, p, and q are integers greater than 1?
02:52:33 <tswett> There are, of course, a few solutions where n, p, and q are nonnegative integers...
02:54:12 <tswett> 1 + 2 = 3, 1 + 3 = 4, 1 + 4 = 5, 2 + 3 = 5, 3 + 5 = 8, 9 + 16 = 25... wait, there's the answer.
02:54:33 <tswett> Next question. How many solutions are there where n, p, and q are nonnegative integers?
02:55:17 <tswett> The other two solutions that immediately come to mind are 2 + 25 = 27 and 3 + 125 = 128.
02:59:53 <Cale> I thought n was supposed to be greater than 1
03:00:09 <tswett> There should be no more solutions with c^q less than or equal to 256.
03:00:12 <tswett> Cale: I changed my mind.
03:00:23 <tswett> 9 + 16 = 25 answers the original question positively.
03:02:32 <Cale> 5^0 + 2^3 = 3^2
03:02:49 <tswett> Yup, I missed that one.
03:04:03 <Cale> That's the only one which is quite like that. 8 and 9 are the only consecutive integers which are perfect powers.
03:04:28 <tswett> Perfect powers of any kind, not just perfect prime powers?
03:04:51 <tswett> Are there only finitely many pairs of perfect powers which are 2 apart?
03:06:20 <tswett> Aha, looks like yes: https://oeis.org/A076427
03:06:45 <tswett> Apparently that's known to be the case for all values of 2 up to at least 100.
03:07:18 <Cale> Wait, this list is not very meaningful
03:07:26 <Cale> http://www.sspectra.com/Pillai.txt -- it comes from here
03:07:37 <Cale> "Perfect powers examined up to 10^18"
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03:08:15 <Cale> I know that it's an open question whether 6 is the difference of two perfect powers.
03:08:56 <Cale> https://oeis.org/A074981
03:09:49 <tswett> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan's_conjecture#Pillai.27s_conjecture - Pillai's conjecture states that for all n, there are only finitely many perfect powers that are n apart. It follows from the ABC conjecture.
03:10:41 <Cale> So we only have to understand inter-universal Teichmüller theory, and we'll have it ;)
03:11:23 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb has a fundamental theorem named after him, but does he have a conjecture?
03:11:25 <shachaf> I was asking in another channel the other day: Is there some direct topological interpretation of big-O notation?
03:11:31 <tswett> Now for some reason I wonder: which 5-smooth numbers are non-trivially the sum of two other 5-smooth numbers, where "non-trivially" means that the three numbers must not all have a prime factor in common?
03:11:49 <tswett> shachaf: what sort of topological interpretation do you mean?
03:11:51 <Cale> shachaf: Topological? Not as far as I'm aware
03:12:05 <shachaf> You can define it as exists K >= 0. lim_{n -> ∞}{f(n)/g(n)} = K or something like that.
03:12:36 <hppavilion[1]> hppavilion[1]'s first conjecture: No one has yet bothered to prove hppavilion[1]'s first conjecture
03:12:48 <shachaf> Cale: Well, there's a nice concrete way of talking about the limit of a sequence, for instance, where you extend that sequence to the extended naturals and ask for f(∞).
03:13:05 <shachaf> Maybe that's not an "interpretation".
03:13:18 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I can prove that conjecture.
03:13:58 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: By proving it, you disprove it, thus meaning you have not proven it, so it holds
03:14:04 <tswett> If anyone had ever managed to prove the conjecture before you stated it, that would mean that the conjecture is false, and so they could not have proved it. Contradiction.
03:14:18 <shachaf> Cale: Why lim sup, when you're talking about n -> ∞?
03:14:32 <tswett> shachaf: the limit could diverge by oscillating.
03:14:32 <Cale> The limit may not exist, but the lim sup will
03:15:21 <shachaf> That makes me want a direct answer even more.
03:15:36 <tswett> shachaf: now, big-O notation is a partial order, right? So it has... I was about to say it has an order topology, but I don't know if partial orders get those.
03:16:37 <shachaf> You can make a topological space out of any preorder, but I don't think that's the sort of thing I'm looking for.
03:16:57 <Cale> Well, we've just used division
03:17:15 <shachaf> i,i * boily has quit [Quit: NON-INTUITIONISTIC CHICKEN]
03:17:46 <tswett> shachaf: what topological space construction are you thinking of?
03:17:55 <Cale> It's also not going to be invariant under homeomorphisms
03:18:41 <tswett> `learn i,i i,i what is i,i
03:18:45 <HackEgo> Learned 'i,i': i,i i,i what is i,i
03:19:11 <shachaf> tswett: I don't know, that's why I'm asking.
03:19:28 <tswett> shachaf: I mean, when you say "you can make a topological space out of any preorder", what are you talking about?
03:19:50 <shachaf> It's just nice how you can concretely say "extend f : N -> X to a continuous f' : N* -> X, and then look at f'(∞)"
03:19:59 <Cale> f(x) = x^3 + x is an automorphism of R, but composing functions with that will change their asymptotic behaviour
03:20:30 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandrov_topology#The_Alexandrov_topology_on_a_preordered_set
03:21:31 <Cale> Ah, perhaps replacing the topology, okay
03:22:05 <shachaf> That last thing was answering tswett's question.
03:23:31 <tswett> Looking at it as a partial order, how about the topology generated by {x : x < a} and {x : x > a}?
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03:27:21 <Cale> So maybe the question is something like: Is there a way to associate to functions f: N -> N some topological spaces X_f such that there is a continuous map X_f -> X_g iff f is O(g)?
03:27:55 <Cale> (or perhaps swap them)
03:28:03 <shachaf> Sure, something like that would probably be an answer.
03:28:18 <shachaf> Or some characterization of ʘ(f)
03:28:39 <shachaf> That was U+0298 instead of U+0398.
03:28:56 <shachaf> But they look similar to each other.
03:40:45 <shachaf> Do you need any extra structure define lim sup for arbitrary topological spaces?
03:41:18 <tswett> Yeah. An automorphism of R has a topological space switches lim sup and lim inf.
03:41:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
03:41:24 <HackEgo> [U+0298 LATIN LETTER BILABIAL CLICK]
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03:51:08 <Cale> For all those bilabial clicks you need to make while pronouncing Latin.
03:52:11 <shachaf> Cale: Can you figure out what ꙮ notation would mean?
03:52:32 <shachaf> There's a SIGBOVIK paper in it, I'm sure.
03:53:08 <Cale> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiocular_O
03:54:07 <HackEgo> 1136) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
03:54:25 <Cale> I don't understand how this letter from a fictional work gets into Unicode, but Klingon doesn't.
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03:56:19 <Cale> We should make a proposal to include the Klingon alphabet as "additional Cyrillic characters"
03:56:53 <shachaf> You might be able to sneak it in under CJK.
03:56:55 <Cale> Cyrillic Klingon of course
03:57:43 <shachaf> The only weakness of that limerick.
04:05:59 <HackEgo> ꙮ is the official Unicode character of #esoteric.
04:06:04 <HackEgo> [U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O]
04:10:44 <Cale> Let V and W be Banach spaces, and g: V -> W, then ꙮ(g) is the set of functions f: V -> W such that for any u in V, we have that the function r |--> f(r*u) is O(r |--> g(r*u)), i.e. in each direction f is asymptotically bounded by g.
04:11:25 <Cale> (but the bound seen by each of the many eyes may differ)
04:12:04 <Cale> shachaf: ^^ hth
04:15:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Eric]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=47090 * Eric * (+12) Created page with "This is Eric"
04:19:47 <oerjan> `learn Jerk is the integral of snap.
04:19:51 <HackEgo> Learned 'jerk': Jerk is the integral of snap.
04:20:35 <shachaf> I still haven't figured out good answers for my questions about the limit operator L : (R -v R) -> (R -v R)
04:20:39 <shachaf> (Where -v means a partial function.)
04:27:49 <Cale> `learn Snap is a simple web development framework for unix systems, written in the Haskell programming language. Snap has a high level of test coverage and is well-documented.
04:27:56 <HackEgo> Learned 'snap': Snap is a simple web development framework for unix systems, written in the Haskell programming language. Snap has a high level of test coverage and is well-documented.
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04:28:24 <shachaf> And there I was about to define it as a Sierpiński Nap.
04:28:54 <shachaf> oerjan: also i can't quite tell what Cale is doing here, can you twh
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04:30:50 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
04:31:07 <HackEgo> Monoids are just categories with single objects.
04:31:10 <HackEgo> A monoid is the easy version of a category.
04:31:29 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
04:32:49 <Cale> Monads are lax functors * -> Cat
04:33:02 <HackEgo> Monads are just free monad monad monad algebras.
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04:34:50 <Cale> So monoids are just lax functors * -> BSet, where BSet is the one-object delooping bicategory of the monoidal category of sets.
04:35:29 <shachaf> I can't think of a good definition for "just monoid".
04:40:49 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: also i can't quite tell what Cale is doing here, can you twh <-- clearly it's meta-ironical hth
04:41:49 <Cale> A just monoid is a monoid which is based on reasonable or adequate grounds.
04:42:24 <HackEgo> Justice is just behavior or treatment.
04:43:00 <shachaf> `` rgrep -le '(is|are) just' wisdom
04:43:31 <oerjan> `learn Applicatives are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
04:43:35 <HackEgo> Learned 'applicative': Applicatives are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
04:43:36 <Cale> A monoid M is called left-adequate if every principal left ideal is projective as a left M-act, and the set E(M) of idempotents forms a semilattice
04:44:02 <oerjan> i sort of thought we had that one already.
04:44:23 <HackEgo> applicative functor? ¯\(°_o)/¯
04:45:47 <shachaf> `` mv wisdom/applicative{,\ functor}; sed -i 's/s/ functors/' wisdom/applicative\ functor
04:46:21 <oerjan> `? applicative functor
04:46:23 <HackEgo> Applicative functors are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
04:46:56 <HackEgo> Functors are just morphisms in the category of small categories
04:47:11 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/functor
04:47:47 <HackEgo> [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo usage: "mk[x]" file//contents >&2; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "$key")" && echo "$key"
04:50:34 <HackEgo> F="$(find wisdom -name "*$(echo "$1" | lowercase)*" -type f | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}//" | rnooodl; cat "$F" | rnooodl
04:51:26 <shachaf> `mkx bin/sedk//[[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo usage: sedk file//operation; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; [[ -f "$key" ]] || exit 1; sed -i "$value" "$key" && { echo -n "$key//"; cat "$key" }
04:52:47 <shachaf> `sedk bin/sedk//s;u;'u;;s"n"n'"
04:52:49 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/sedk: line 2: syntax error: unexpected end of file
04:53:47 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/..$/; }/' bin/sedk
04:53:57 <shachaf> `sedk bin/sedk//s;u;'u;;s"n"n'"
04:54:00 <HackEgo> bin/sedk//[[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo 'usage: sedk file//operation'; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; [[ -f "$key" ]] || exit 1; sed -i "$value" "$key" && { echo -n "$key//"; cat "$key"; }
04:54:33 <HackEgo> bin/sedk//[[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo 'usage: sedk file//script'; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; [[ -f "$key" ]] || exit 1; sed -i "$value" "$key" && { echo -n "$key//"; cat "$key"; }
04:55:54 <shachaf> Maybe I should've rnoooooodled that.
04:58:03 <shachaf> `` mv bin/sedk bin/sled; sedk 'bin/sled//s-sedk-sled-'
04:58:07 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: sedk: command not found
04:58:26 <shachaf> `sled bin/sled//s-sedk-sled-
04:58:28 <HackEgo> bin/sled//[[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo 'usage: sled file//script'; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; [[ -f "$key" ]] || exit 1; sed -i "$value" "$key" && { echo -n "$key//"; cat "$key"; }
05:10:20 <hppavilion[1]> Category Theory-related wisdom tends to start with "xs are just"
05:17:32 <HackEgo> cat: culprits: No such file or directory
05:17:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: innocent: not found
05:22:32 <oerjan> clearly a case of advanced amnesia.
05:23:15 <shachaf> so derivatives [4..6] are called snap, crackle, and pop
06:05:16 <HackEgo> emacs is the weird brother of nano.
06:05:19 <HackEgo> vi is in a relationship with emacs.
06:11:19 <oerjan> only if you incest there is.
06:13:10 <hppavilion[1]> Ooooh, the wisdom PDF has a whole chapter on Tanebventions
06:18:57 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, gazpacho, Stephen Wolfram, Go, submarine jousting, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, Lambek's lemma, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
06:19:33 <shachaf> `sled wisdom/tanebvention//s/lemma/lemma, histograms,/
06:19:37 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebvention//Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, gazpacho, Stephen Wolfram, Go, submarine jousting, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, Lambek's lemma, histograms,, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
06:19:50 <shachaf> `sled wisdom/tanebvention//s/,,/,/
06:19:53 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebvention//Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, gazpacho, Stephen Wolfram, Go, submarine jousting, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, Lambek's lemma, histograms, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
06:22:36 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn soviet russia/In soviet russia, this wisdom entry /would/ read you if it weren't for the fact that IRC hadn't been invented at the time
06:23:38 <HackEgo> wisdom/soviet russia//¯\(°_o)/¯ soviet russia?
06:23:59 <shachaf> your joke is only a reference to another joke and it isn't even properly punctuated
06:24:06 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/soviet russia
06:24:21 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] int-e b_jonas oerjan
06:24:54 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn soviet russia/In soviet russia, this wisdom entry /would/ read you if it weren't for the fact that IRC hadn't been invented at the time.
06:25:11 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/soviet\ russia | grep summary: | grep -v hpp
06:25:18 <HackEgo> summary: <int-e> revert \ summary: <b_jonas> slashlearn soviet russia/In soviet russia, this wisdom entry reads you. \ summary: <oerjan> le/rn soviet russia/\xc2\xaf\\(\xc2\xb0\xe2\x80\x8b_o)/\xc2\xaf soviet russia?
06:26:17 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
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06:58:28 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯ soviet russia?
06:59:32 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: also, irc was invented while soviet russia still existed hth
07:00:30 <HackEgo> russian reversal? ¯\(°_o)/¯
07:00:40 <HackEgo> lithuanian inversion? ¯\(°_o)/¯
07:01:48 <oerjan> it's also the old joke
07:01:50 <HackEgo> french expansion? ¯\(°_o)/¯
07:02:10 <HackEgo> greek oliveoilization? ¯\(°_o)/¯
07:02:39 <oerjan> . o O ( which countries have imploded? )
07:04:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[++brainfuck++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47091&oldid=47085 * Maximngy * (+44)
07:04:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[++brainfuck++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47092&oldid=47091 * Maximngy * (-40)
07:05:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[++brainfuck++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47093&oldid=47092 * Maximngy * (+5)
07:06:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:++brainfuck++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=47094 * Hppavilion1 * (+61) Informed.
07:06:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:++brainfuck++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47095&oldid=47094 * Hppavilion1 * (+11) Updated to match new title
07:07:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47096&oldid=47073 * Maximngy * (+66)
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07:08:24 <hppavilion[1]> Hm... I wonder if there are any programs that take improper english written by a non-native speaker and attempt to determine their native language
07:10:33 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: Well it wouldn't work for fluent nonnative speakers, but it'd be designed for people who know just enough english to scrape by
07:11:09 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: Well the fact that you aren't a native speaker is news to me IIRC, so...
07:11:38 <hppavilion[1]> (ironically, "I'm" should be "I was" there, I guess)
07:12:05 <lifthrasiir> yeah, that kind of mistakes. I'm particularly bad at tense for example
07:13:08 <lifthrasiir> and articles, but everyone learning English seems to fail on articles anyway
07:15:42 <hppavilion[1]> "You should not end a sentence with a preposition. Wait, dammit."
07:17:22 <izabera> "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. World War V will be fought with crossbows, World War VI will be lasers, and World War VII will be blowguns. I don't know about World Wars VIII through XI. World War XII will use the same weapons as III, but will be fought entirely within underground tunnels. World War XIV will—Hey, come
07:17:24 <izabera> back! I have a whole list!" -- Albert Einstein
07:17:33 <HackEgo> Learned 'einstein': einstein is a germaneau for "a stone"
07:19:45 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: hmm, everyone whose native language is not indo-european. that should be more clear.
07:20:27 <lifthrasiir> (other languages often have articles, guaranteed, but indo-european articles can be quite complex compared to others)
07:28:57 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: no no, look, Hungarian has articles that are used very similar to those in English or French
07:29:25 <b_jonas> Indo-European is not relevant here in practice, because if your native language is Russian you are going to have trouble with articles in Englih
07:29:42 <b_jonas> Indo-European didn't use to have articles originally
07:29:55 <b_jonas> those are later inventions, and stolen multiple times
07:30:10 <b_jonas> they're not inherited on the main branches of the family tree
07:30:35 <lifthrasiir> yup, that's true, still I feel most modern indo-european languages have a system of articles anyway
07:30:59 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: um, maybe? I dunno
07:31:32 <b_jonas> it might be half and half, but some of the ones that have articles (like Swedish) have a different system from English or French
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07:32:22 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: for one record, affixes give another headache for foreign learners, though English does not have them (in general)
07:32:44 <lifthrasiir> one of reason that Korean is particularly hard for many other speakers
07:33:09 <lifthrasiir> (and Japanese, which is worse thanks to the absence of spacing)
07:33:44 <lifthrasiir> (and "thanks" used as a sarcasm just to be sure)
07:33:47 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: especially in the languages that have crazy unlearnable random forms of how a particular affix looks like when appended to a particular word, like Hungarian, where they're so random that half of the time they're used as a shiboleth to identify non-native speakers reliably, and the other half of the time even native speakers don't agree on the correct form
07:34:02 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: you seem to be very good at hitting issues that don't apply to b_jonas :P
07:35:02 <b_jonas> oerjan: what? they sure apply. just because Hungarian has a crazy verb conjugation (and also noun declination) system doesn't make conjugation in other languages much easier to learn, because they don't work the same
07:35:27 <oerjan> b_jonas: well you have articles, and you have affixes galore.
07:35:31 <b_jonas> oerjan: articles in English _are_ easy to learn for me, because they work practically the same as in Hungarian, with some rare differences
07:35:52 <lifthrasiir> wow, Hungarian affixes seem to be... a lot. Korean also has lots of them but in a slightly different way.
07:35:52 <oerjan> obviously hungarian calqued articles from its indoeuropean neighbors.
07:36:11 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: but Japanese at least has some of the nouns and verbs written in Kanji and all the suffixes written in hiragana, doesn't that sort of count as spaces?
07:36:28 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: yeah, created out of necessity (unfortunately).
07:36:33 <b_jonas> oerjan: of course, even the indoeuropean neighbors stole the articles from each other way after they split
07:37:20 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: but I Japanese verb conjugation does have a reputation to be hard to learn, yse
07:38:20 <lifthrasiir> hmm, if I read the WP correctly, Hungarian affixes do not compose, it just have tons of them for each class, right? (plus some terrible mutation rules)
07:39:18 <lifthrasiir> Korean affixes compose a lot, and ruins automated segmentation
07:39:24 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: it does have composing affixes (called képző), but also ordinary verb affixes and noun affixes that form the conjugation and declination, and those don't compose, so you have basically at most two attached to a verb or noun
07:39:59 <b_jonas> “tons of them for each class” - not compared to Japanese I think, but I'm not really sure
07:40:34 <oerjan> b_jonas: i think i read once that greek got the definite article from phoenician some time between homeric and classical greek and from there it spread to others.
07:41:07 <oerjan> but i'm not sure how accurate that is.
07:42:52 <b_jonas> Basically, a Hungarian noun takes a “jel” suffix which indicates singular vs plural and also possessive (but the possessive is null most of the time in the text), followed by a “rag” suffix which is ordinary noun declination indicating the role of the noun group in the sentence (sort of like in Latin, and somewhat less like Japanese);
07:44:45 <b_jonas> whereas an adjective takes possibly a “jel” suffix indicating comparative, followed by possibly an ordinary noun “jel” and noun “rag” (most often both omitted because they can be used only if the adjective is used as a noun group alone or a qualifier after a noun, but most of the time adjectives are used as epitheths before a noun in which case it's forbidden);
07:47:43 <b_jonas> and Hungarian verbs take a “jel” indicating mood and tense (there's four possibilities, plus some obsolate ones, the most common one is empty for the indicative present, two other forms are notated by an aux verb instead of a suffix), followed by a “rag” that agrees with the count and person of the subject and the determinacy of the object (13 possibilities).
07:48:31 <b_jonas> So a Hungarian verb has 4*13 possibly forms (one less actually because there's two that always look the same, but that doesn't help understanding the system).
07:50:34 <b_jonas> The basic system is simple, but the part that's impossible to learn is that when you actually attach a suffix to a word the letters and sounds you get are modified in ways impossible to predict.
07:52:18 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: does Korean have a verb conjugation system that's reputed to be hard to learn, like Japanese? I know Korean is supposed to have a grammar similar to Japanese, but I'm not sure if that applies to that part too.
07:53:05 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: Korean have no conjugation system, probably everything is done with affixes.
07:53:20 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: um, what's the difference?
07:53:50 <lifthrasiir> the problem is you initially don't know where to cut
07:57:42 <lifthrasiir> some example: "했다" ("[subject] did [...]") <- short for "하였다" = 하- (verb, lit. to do) / -였- (past tense) / -다 (plain verb ending)
07:58:24 <lifthrasiir> you may notice that there *is* a contraction. it is not proper conjugation though because you can literally replace every occurrence of 했다 with 하였다, so it is rather a pronunciation contraction
07:59:04 <lifthrasiir> well, or abbreviation if you prefer that. kind of contractions like "im" in German (<- in dem)
08:00:25 * oerjan wondered why hungarian verbs had a prime number of "rag"s, then remembered -lak/lek
08:03:05 <lifthrasiir> now introducing tons of variations for this verb: 할 (future tense, needs aux verb), 할까요 (future tense plus inquiry), 합시다 (present tense plus proposition), 할까봐 (future tense, nominal "-까" plus suggestive "-봐"), and so on
08:03:52 <lifthrasiir> there are several, not always compatible, variations for each kind of affixes, resulting in literally thousands of them
08:05:10 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: right. that counts more or less like conjugation for me, unless there are also suffixes with a varying form that can be separated from the word it applies to by other words (not just other affixes on the same word)
08:07:17 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: IIRC conjugation is related to the grammatical tags and thus imperative (you cannot use non-conjugated forms interchangably). I think Korean does not do that.
08:07:56 <lifthrasiir> there are some close-to-conjugation rules that are imperative, though
08:08:11 <lifthrasiir> (and some of them irregular, as common in natural languages)
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08:11:02 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: hmm, so you say it's not conjugation unless the agreement or suffixes are mostly mandatory on all verbs where they make sense, whereas in Koeran they are often optional and used only when they're necessary?
08:11:59 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: they are common contractions, but otherwise yes, I think so
08:12:37 <lifthrasiir> not to say that it is easier, actually that's more difficult (as you have to learn both and when it is appropriate)
08:13:20 <b_jonas> What I don't understand really is how languages like Chinese can work, for they have so few suffixes or grammatical particles that I don't understand how any listener can split groups of words in a sentence and tell their role in the sentence.
08:14:10 <b_jonas> Maybe I just have a mistaken impression about Chinese and it has more grammatical particles than it seems, I dunno.
08:14:20 <lifthrasiir> in my understanding Chinese is quite similar to English (in terms of grammatical characteristics), so the word order is very important and some supporting words should be used to clarify their meanings
08:14:56 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: English is bad too, yes, but at least it has articles on some of the nouns, which helps.
08:16:00 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: I think Chinese also has some particles, 的 being a prime example
08:16:06 <b_jonas> Whereas Chinese has neither articles (like English) nor lots of case markers after most nouns (like latin or Japanese)
08:16:40 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: lots of particles sure, but are they commonly used? and I think I don't count particles that occur only at the end of the sentence.
08:17:42 <lifthrasiir> for me it is more concerning that Chinese has a relatively simple phonology (well, tones, right, but tones are often missed during conversation)
08:19:10 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: why is that important? lots of languages have a simple phonology, Japanese included.
08:19:49 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: tons of synonyms and near-synonyms as a result. (Japanese has tons of them as well)
08:20:14 <lifthrasiir> well, Japanese seems to be fine so that may not be an actual problem
08:20:41 <b_jonas> I hear it is a problem in spoken Japanese, which is why they add lots of extra words to disambiguate.
08:27:48 <mroman> what is a problem in spoken japanese?
08:28:13 <b_jonas> causing word-level ambiguities
08:28:19 <mroman> they have lots of those
08:28:39 <mroman> although some of those stress different syllables
08:31:07 <b_jonas> mroman: right, pitch accent. half of the sources say it doesn't even really exist in Japanese, or only in certain dialects. I have no idea what the truth about it is.
08:31:11 <mroman> it's almost ridiculous how many homophones they have
08:31:29 <mroman> b_jonas: as far as I know it's certain dialects.
08:31:51 <lifthrasiir> ah, I wrote synonyms when I should've write homonym
08:31:54 <mroman> but I don't know if there's some "official dialect" that has different pitch accents for homophones
08:32:16 <mroman> most famous one is hashi
08:32:36 <mroman> or probably even more :)
08:33:08 <mroman> apparentely also tip/point/(end of street)
08:33:34 <mroman> also the first (harvest, catch) of the season or year
08:33:44 <b_jonas> mroman: meh, a few isolated words with many meanings (like “scale”) doesn't really prove anything
08:34:26 <mroman> a word with many meanings is still one word
08:34:34 <oerjan> hm, bit of a bitcoin boom
08:35:04 <mroman> but jisho lists at least 4-5 words with "hashi" as its readnig.
08:36:09 <mroman> I'm no linguist. I don't even know when something is really a different word or the same
08:36:27 <mroman> there's for example "Schloss" in german, which is either a "castle" or a "lock"
08:36:44 <mroman> I don't know if those are homonyms or just a word with two meanings
08:38:38 <mroman> hm. polysem, homonym, holograph
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09:39:31 <b_jonas> mroman: yes, sometimes it's hard to tell the difference
09:39:48 <b_jonas> in a few cases, different dictionaries decide differentl
09:41:44 <mroman> yeah.. wp says it's pretty much up to the origin of the word
09:42:03 <mroman> whether it's a ploysem or homonym
09:44:02 <hppavilion[1]> No website should have a loading screen if it isn't streaming content
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09:48:53 <mroman> according to industry best practices every website should have a 30s loading screen with a shitload of ads (that also install malware on your machine to display even more ads)
09:49:07 <mroman> as well as an anti-ad-blocker that redirects you to malicious porn sites if an adblocker is detected
09:49:51 <mroman> also some of the ads need to look like regular MS Windows windows (even better if you detect the OS so you don't display Windows Vista window borders when using Windows XP)
09:50:14 <mroman> most importantly it needs to start shaking once the user wants to close it, if the user closes it the user needs to be asked if he's sure
09:50:16 <b_jonas> mroman: maybe I'm just visiting the wrong websites for this, but the "anti-adblocker" mostly sounds like a myth to me that everyone says other websites are doing, and is totally possible to do, but almost no website actually uses.
09:50:41 <b_jonas> mroman: some websites have overlays that javascript removes, but it's specifically for disabled javascript, not ad blocking I think
09:50:44 <mroman> but they just display a message :)
09:51:19 <mroman> some websites put an overlay over the content if ads didn't load properly
09:51:31 <mroman> which you can remove with firebug or alike (delete node)
09:51:32 <b_jonas> (really overlays, where the page loads anyway behind it so you can just remove it, not the javascript redirect kind where you can't even read the page without interpreting the javascript)
09:51:48 <mroman> tougher websites do a redirect
09:51:51 <b_jonas> mroman: maybe I just confuse them with that
09:51:54 <mroman> so you temporarily have to disable redirects.
09:52:18 <mroman> others just serve ads from their own domain
09:52:25 <mroman> which is just a proxy of the actual ad network :)
09:52:54 <mroman> that's not really an anti-ad-blocker though, just anti-ad-blocking strategy
09:53:35 <mroman> proxying ads through your own domain is probably currently the best thing you can do to still serve ads.
09:56:23 <mroman> also as an oem manufacturer you have to install rootkits that trust your own certificates so you can man in the middle all https connections and insert your own ads
09:56:51 <mroman> I don't know why companies can get off the hook so easily when they do these things.
09:57:38 <mroman> If I were to walk into some company and install a rootkit there I'd go to prison
10:09:49 <mroman> but I guess my world view is just too distorted :D
10:10:13 <mroman> by 2016 I'd have thought some OS manufacturer had the guts to address some root problems when it comes to malware and stuff like that
10:10:20 <mroman> but nothing much happened
10:13:26 <mroman> it's almost like Microsoft has some business with either malware or anti-malware manufacturers :D
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10:45:15 <lambdabot> EGLL 310920Z AUTO 35010KT 5000 -RA OVC011/// //////CB 11/10 Q1015 RERA TEMPO 4000 RA BKN009
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11:31:58 <izabera> just wanted some info about the -go suffix that i can't find anywhere
11:32:42 <Cale> uhhh... example?
11:33:42 <izabera> in bleach, yoruichi calls byakuya "byakuya-go"
11:34:30 <Cale> Sure it's not -bo?
11:35:02 <izabera> not sure it's very similar
11:35:19 <izabera> oh i see, bo is on wikipedia
11:35:41 <Cale> -bou actually, I guess
11:37:16 <izabera> but it really sounds similar <.<
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12:39:34 <HackEgo> Cubes come in all sizes, colors and materials, but only one shape. The companion cube does not speak, however.
12:40:36 <gamemanj> wrong - the companion cube, though vaguely cube-shaped, has various ridges, circles, and other alterations to the basic shape of a cube, that make it not precisely a cube.
12:41:09 <gamemanj> However, given that it is still classified as a cube, the "but only one shape" phrase should be changed to "but always match the same general outline of a shape".
12:55:16 <int-e> gamemanj: so basically you're saying that the wisdom entry meets the usual #esoteric standard of being a satisfying mix of truth and misinformation.
12:57:27 <int-e> `` cd wisdom; grep Dante *
12:57:41 <HackEgo> grep: le: Is a directory \ grep: ¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: ¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ plan9:Plan9 is the precursor to Dante's Inferno, home of the Limbo programming language. \ Binary file reflection matches \ virgil:Virgil is a prayer at dawn, as well as an ancient Italian poet who led Dante to hell so they can ask the blind transgende
12:58:19 * int-e forgets his own wisdom entries...
12:58:26 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/plan9
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15:02:46 <gamemanj> Last time I messed with BytePusher, it was to try AOTing it, but that turned out to be impractical. But... what about a JIT?
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17:25:40 <gamemanj> It should be possible to JIT BytePusher with... well, it seems a maximum of 512 segments per frame during some parts, but during runtime averaging on somewhere like 270. Need to get more stats for average segment length...
17:26:50 <gamemanj> Unlike my previous attempt at messing with BytePusher execution, this one actually runs programs, though right now it only compiles it to something else it ends up interpreting.
17:27:16 <gamemanj> ...and it's slower than a normal BytePusher interpreter.
17:27:28 <gamemanj> (Even when it's not recompiling segments.)
17:30:18 <gamemanj> I should be able to more or less zero the recompiled segment count by caching "alternate versions" of segments.
17:30:43 <gamemanj> ...but that probably won't make it faster than a normal BytePusher interpreter.
17:33:48 <gamemanj> Ok, so even more mressing around shows that the average segment it can JIT on a complex program is 9 instructions long.
17:34:18 <gamemanj> I am beginning to doubt the utility of this...
17:37:07 <gamemanj> Hmm. Ok, so on the Audio Test it manages an average segment length of 7 instructions, and never compiles a segment more than once. I'm a bit more optimistic now.
17:37:58 <gamemanj> ...and it only compiled 2 segments.
17:39:43 <HackEgo> olist 1038: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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17:54:48 <shachaf> Not in this channel, but it might've happened in another channel.
17:55:06 <shachaf> Or on the other side of a netsplit, I guess, but then HackEgo wasn't there to help.
17:55:21 <shachaf> The poor olister, forced to manually type everyone's nick.
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18:49:54 <HackEgo> olist is update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html
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19:30:46 <HackEgo> get off my lawn? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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19:54:41 <zzo38> What is wrong with this question?
19:58:43 <Taneb> zzo38, it's self-referential
19:59:17 <zzo38> O, yes, that is what it is.
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20:04:04 <shachaf> Taneb: you're self-referential hth
20:04:59 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of eight genders, and voluminous but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
20:05:21 <Taneb> shachaf, yes, it's something I'm working on
20:06:53 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, gazpacho, Stephen Wolfram, Go, submarine jousting, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, Lambek's lemma, histograms, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
20:07:19 <gamemanj> Let's see which of those are fake...
20:07:38 <gamemanj> Hmm... Probably that last sentence, but nothing else
20:08:04 <Taneb> gamemanj, the last sentence is the most true of all
20:08:15 <gamemanj> It's not like I've ever seen anyone called Stephen Wolfram, so he's probably an invention of Taneb
20:08:16 <Taneb> I'm completely asexual and a bit uncomfortable with being associated with sex
20:08:55 <gamemanj> ...oh. In which case, it may not have been the greatest idea putting it in a sentence which may or may not contain lies...
20:09:15 <gamemanj> Did anyone ever try submarine jousting? Sounds fun but dangerous...
20:09:33 <gamemanj> Also, Taneb is probably at least 100 years old
20:10:15 <gamemanj> (+ some extra time in which Taneb became old enough to potentially conceive of a broadcasting corporation for Britain)
20:10:16 <Taneb> gamemanj, Phantom_Hoover is quite good at submarine jousting from what I've heard
20:10:36 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, yes it
20:11:12 <Phantom_Hoover> also i'm not in the submarine team, i just knew some of the people on it
20:11:32 <gamemanj> And everybody knows Taneb invented the torus, they share a first letter
20:11:46 <Taneb> gamemanj, a torus, topologically, is just a torus
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20:13:19 <gamemanj> Taneb: I am tautology resistant to 104 megaiterations.
20:14:13 <gamemanj> (Should someone provide a tautology with 104.000001 megaiterations, I will fall asleep for 10 hours.)
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20:14:42 <gamemanj> (This roughly matches the amount of time it would take for me to actually listen to the tautology.)
20:18:25 <Koen_> what's an iteration of a tautology?
20:24:59 <Taneb> Koen_, the iteration of a tautology, of course
20:25:25 <Koen_> oh, I see what you're doing
20:27:21 <Koen_> `? shrugging smiley
20:27:24 <HackEgo> shrugging smiley? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:28:27 <Koen_> thank you gamemanj
20:28:46 <HackEgo> m–rdalsjökull//M–rdalsjökull is a draconic volcano harbouring the secret KATL base.
20:28:46 <HackEgo> right//Right is not two wrongs but three lefts.
20:28:46 <HackEgo> antediluvian//We could tell you what antediluvian means, but that would just open a flood of questions.
20:28:46 <HackEgo> izabera//izabera is a bradyherpetologist. She is probably implemented in bash.
20:30:51 <gamemanj> It seems unlikely that a person could be implemented in bash (and the CTCP VERSION doesn't say "bash" either), so the wisdom entry is probably telling a lie
20:31:15 <HackEgo> The Macabres have been the hereditary rulers of Lochaber for 3 centuries.
20:31:48 <HackEgo> macabre//The Macabres have been the hereditary rulers of Lochaber for 3 centuries.
20:37:02 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Phantom_Hoover
20:37:20 <gamemanj> ...or at least one of them, at any rate!
20:39:28 <izabera> no it was something about python being slow
20:42:38 <shachaf> `le/rn usual suspects/There are 3.99 usual suspects, but they're usually rounded up.
20:43:51 <shachaf> `` ln -s usual\ suspect wisdom/the\ usual\ suspect
20:44:54 <shachaf> gamemanj: clearly your suspectometer is broken hth
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20:55:16 <fizzie> A horse is a horse, of course, of course.
20:55:21 <fizzie> (Speaking of tautologies.)
20:56:11 <shachaf> fizzie: Of course a horse is a horse.
20:56:20 <shachaf> But I'm not sure that that's true of course.
20:56:24 <shachaf> It might need to be proved.
20:57:15 <shachaf> I guess "of course" is a linear logic operator and a comonad.
20:57:27 <shachaf> So "of course A" implies "of course of course A".
20:57:38 <olsner> being a horse is true of a horse but not of a course
20:57:52 <HackEgo> olsner seems to exist at least. He builds all his esolangs in diesel engines.
20:59:30 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. The unit of fun punnery is named after him.
21:00:47 <fizzie> A horse by any other name would smell as sweet.
21:01:15 <gamemanj> ...I bothered to search Nepeta Leijon. I am now unsure what, exactly, to say.
21:01:33 <gamemanj> Thus, this placeholder message has been left. <end placeholder>
21:01:39 <zzo38> I think there is a file for accounting but it would seem from above they do not have the file of accountant yet?
21:02:05 <HackEgo> Xathrid Gorgon \ 5B \ Creature -- Gorgon \ 3/6 \ Deathtouch (Any amount of damage this deals to a creature is enough to destroy it.) \ {2}{B}, {T}: Put a petrification counter on target creature. It gains defender and becomes a colorless artifact in addition to its other types. Its activated abilities can't be activated. (A creature with defender c
21:02:14 <zzo38> In the wisdom file
21:02:21 <olsner> fungot: what do you say about nepeta leijon?
21:02:21 <fungot> olsner: please go to :image:herald.jpgthe image description page and edit it to include a wikipedia:fair use rationale guidelineexplanation or rationale as to why its use in ' ' fnord' ( unethical offspring) of the page would hurt the island image.
21:02:36 <zzo38> You should reprogram random-card to strip the reminder text so that the other text will fit.
21:03:12 <shachaf> zzo38: But what if you want to read the reminder text?
21:03:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: I was thinking of auditors (from Discworld), not accountants.
21:03:30 <zzo38> O, OK then write the one about auditor from Discworld
21:03:55 <b_jonas> zzo38: I'm not sure. The remainder text is useful when you take a random card from twenty years of set of crazy keywords.
21:04:03 <zzo38> shachaf: Then you can use a command-line switch to enable it possibly
21:04:15 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, maybe if it doesn't fit in the output then it could make sense to strip the reminder text
21:04:24 <b_jonas> as in, strip only if it wouldn't fit otherwise
21:04:36 <b_jonas> `card-by-name benalish hero
21:04:39 <HackEgo> Benalish Hero \ W \ Creature -- Human Soldier \ 1/1 \ Banding (Any creatures with banding, and up to one without, can attack in a band. Bands are blocked as a group. If any creatures with banding you control are blocking or being blocked by a creature, you divide that creature's combat damage, not its controller, among any of the creatures it's bei
21:04:40 <zzo38> b_jonas: But now the text won't fit on one message. I think the reminder text is waste space (and isn't always perfectly accurate), because you can look up the rules instead.
21:05:01 <zzo38> If you do not know what a keyword means then you should look up in the rules.
21:06:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: part of the problem is that wizards sometimes omits reminder text from where it would be really useful and would not be distracting, like on Sea's Claim, or like on creatures with protection from a color and not many other abilities (is there even ANY card where protection was printed with a reminder text?).
21:07:43 <b_jonas> zzo38: Sea's Claim is particularly stupid, as it has a reminder text for "Enchant land" which is probably the ability more people would know without reminder text, but no reminder text for "Enchanted land is an Island." which is way more likely to be confusing for players
21:07:56 <zzo38> I think reminder text should always be omitted unless the text is sufficiently unclear due to English is a stupid language perhaps
21:08:27 <b_jonas> zzo38: no no, if the text is unclear because English is a stupid language, then the ability must be rephrased. don't just fix that with a reminder text.
21:09:17 <b_jonas> Fixing the ability might be difficult of course, and requires lots of planning ahead with the rules.
21:09:26 <b_jonas> But that planning ahead is what the rules manager is for.
21:09:28 <zzo38> In case rephrasing is impossible maybe, or if the rephrasing makes it not compatible with the rules of the game
21:10:01 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, and if they really can't rephrase, even with fixing the rules, then Wizardse simply doesn't print such a card
21:10:03 <zzo38> Nearly everything is sufficiently clear even without the reminder text though.
21:10:16 <b_jonas> There are lots of potential cards that you can't print for such reason.
21:10:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: only if you remember all the two hundred obscure old keyworded abilities and action words.
21:11:32 <zzo38> You should learn the rules for the keywords used in the set/cube/deck that you are playing, and reference it if you are unsure.
21:12:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, for decks I make I totally should learn the rules well, but I can't know in advance what decks other people make, and in the case of `random-card you can get almost any card
21:12:28 <zzo38> My own custom cards do not use reminder text for keywords (in some cases it won't even fit anyways).
21:13:09 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, but the space for the IRC is even less than the space of the cards themself. You can ask for the card with the -r switch to read reminder text perhaps, and/or to use another command to look up a rule.
21:14:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, we could do that
21:15:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: feel free to modify `random-card and `card-by-name to omit the reminder text
21:15:34 <b_jonas> I'm lazy, I won't implement it now
21:15:44 <b_jonas> but if you implement it, it's fine
21:16:13 <zzo38> I won't implement it now either, but possibly later I would do so.
21:17:14 <b_jonas> But seriously, I hate Spreading Seas and Sea's Claim for not having the reminder text saying that the enchanted land loses abilities printed on it. And they're good cards and not easily replacable, so I can't just ignore those cards.
21:17:25 <zzo38> Some of my own custom cards have banding and bands with other (I like those keyword abilities), as well as new keywords, some of which are too complicated to fit in the reminder text, so mine would omit the reminder text.
21:17:43 <zzo38> b_jonas: I don't care about that. Write on the cards or make proxies if you do care.
21:17:54 <b_jonas> (Sure, I can use such cards instead that don't use that crazy rule, and preserve the land types and abilities, but that's not the same.)
21:18:48 <b_jonas> zzo38: it's not so easy to write on the cards, you'd have to rewrite the whole text box probably
21:18:54 <zzo38> It is clear enough from the rules that it won't keep their abilities or other subtypes, so it is not need the extra text
21:19:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: and sure, banding is a lost cause, it has such complicated rules that the reminder would barely fit a card
21:19:47 <zzo38> Banding is good though. Reminder text is bad though.
21:19:50 <b_jonas> Even the oracle gatherer text is long, and it omits crucial details.
21:20:22 <b_jonas> it's just one you don't write on the cards. Just like the planeswalker rules. They weren't written on any of the planeswalkers, not even when they were introduced in Lorwyn.
21:20:29 <b_jonas> Or the two-faced card rules.
21:20:43 <zzo38> They shouldn't need to be; they are in the rule book
21:22:15 <b_jonas> Banding is a good idea itself, it's just that most of the banding cards they printed are just silly.
21:22:56 <zzo38> Well, I have made some of my own cards with banding which have other things as well, so new combinations are possible.
21:23:22 <b_jonas> Benalish Hero, the larger banding creatures (multiple elephants, a griffin, and other soldiers), and the Helm are fine; but the bands with others creatures, the tons of cards (in Legends I think) that REMOVE banding from other cards, and that land that gives legends "bands with other legends" are just silly
21:23:39 <b_jonas> It's sort of the same situation as with Great Wall
21:24:20 <zzo38> One thing some of my cards have is stuff like "target creature banded with" or "other creatures banded with".
21:25:49 <zzo38> (I have added a rule to define what that means.)
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21:38:35 <b_jonas> wow, I didn't know there were 11 cards printed with Leech creature type.
21:41:49 <shachaf> zzo38: By "now" do you mean "before now"?
21:46:40 <zzo38> O, yes, that is what I meant, sorry.
21:47:51 <zzo38> I wrote "irrelevant" instead by mistake
21:51:04 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm not... zzo38 i was quoting a line from dwarf fortress as a joke, asre you sure it's what you meant to say?
21:52:33 <zzo38> I think so. Actually I am unsure that either "irrelevant" or "inevitable" is correct, but it seem closer to what I intended
21:55:46 <zzo38> I think that I am not a dwarf fortress
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21:59:05 <HackEgo> Annihilating Fire \ 1RR \ Instant \ Annihilating Fire deals 3 damage to target creature or player. If a creature dealt damage this way would die this turn, exile it instead. \ RTR-C
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22:01:47 <HackEgo> Hedron-Field Purists \ 2W \ Creature -- Human Cleric \ 0/3 \ Level up {2}{W} ({2}{W}: Put a level counter on this. Level up only as a sorcery.) \ {LEVEL 1-4} 1/4 If a source would deal damage to you or a creature you control, prevent 1 of that damage. \ {LEVEL 5+} 2/5 If a source would deal damage to you or a creature you control, prevent 2 of that
22:02:26 <b_jonas> that just barely doesn't fit the irc line.
22:03:05 <zzo38> If it is just barely, then it look like removing the reminder text would help. (But in some cases, card texts might not fit even if reminder text is stripped.)
22:03:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: yep, snipping the reminder text would definitely help here
22:03:49 <zzo38> Serra's Farmstead {WW} Enchantment - Aura ;; Enchant land ;; Enchanted land has "{2}, {T}: Add {W} to your mana pool. You gain 2 life." ;; When ~ comes into play, you gain 1 life. ;; Echo {W}
22:04:34 <HackEgo> Epic Confrontation \ 1G \ Sorcery \ Target creature you control gets +1/+2 until end of turn. It fights target creature you don't control. (Each deals damage equal to its power to the other.) \ DTK-C
22:05:10 <HackEgo> Mirror Golem \ 6 \ Artifact Creature -- Golem \ 3/4 \ Imprint -- When Mirror Golem enters the battlefield, you may exile target card from a graveyard. \ Mirror Golem has protection from each of the exiled card's card types. (Artifact, creature, enchantment, instant, land, planeswalker, sorcery, and tribal are card types.) \ MRD-U
22:05:33 <HackEgo> Grove of the Dreampods \ Plane -- Fabacin \ When you planeswalk to Grove of the Dreampods or at the beginning of your upkeep, reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a creature card. Put that card onto the battlefield and the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order. \ Whenever you roll CHAOS, return target creature c
22:06:38 <zzo38> Do you like Serra's Farmstead? Do you like the original Farmstead?
22:06:52 <HackEgo> Farmstead \ WWW \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant land \ Enchanted land has "At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay {W}{W}. If you do, you gain 1 life." \ A-R, B-R, U-R, RV-R
22:07:17 <b_jonas> ah, an old white rare from revised. no wonder I didn't know it
22:07:59 <b_jonas> dunno, the original Farmstead seems very weak
22:08:04 <b_jonas> probably that's why I haven't heared of it
22:08:12 <zzo38> Yes I think it is weak
22:08:30 <b_jonas> Serra's Farmstead is stronger of course, but it sort of seems like too complicated
22:13:02 <b_jonas> Question. What would be the power level of a mono-colored bounce land? Eg. Large Atoll \ Land \ ~ etb tapped. \ When ~ etb, return a land you control to its owner's hand. \ {T}: Add {U}{U} to your mana pool.
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22:14:35 <b_jonas> I would play lands like that in some decks if they existed, but that doesn't really mean much.
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22:35:38 <b_jonas> Can you recommend a website like isup.me but that can act on https servers?
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22:47:29 <HackEgo> angband//Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon. When the valar finally defeated Morgoth, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel.
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22:58:13 <boily> All Hail the Fair and Just RNG!
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