00:00:42 <\oren\_> of course there is also the question of how much a literary corpus stabilizes the language
00:01:22 <\oren\_> like, do we know whther english language change has slowed down since the rise of literacy?
00:02:14 <\oren\_> french is still wirtten the way frech was spoken a long time ago right?
00:02:48 <\oren\_> so its possible it can't drift beyond a certain distance from the wirtten form
00:03:45 <boily> with modern telecoms and internet, languages are drifting closer together.
00:03:51 <wob_jonas> \oren\: yes, but it's not just drifting randomly, it's a filter layer of systematic simple changes over the written form
00:04:03 <boily> written French is completely different from spoken French.
00:04:23 <wob_jonas> boily: of course it is. spoken french is horrible and hard to understand.
00:04:57 <\oren\_> saint, sain, sains, saints, sein, seins
00:04:59 <wob_jonas> it doesn't have enough clues to be able to tell where the words end or what speakers are even saying
00:06:02 <boily> seau, sceau, sot, saut...
00:06:05 <\oren\_> wr-r merger is over a pretty rare sound though?
00:06:44 <\oren\_> the most common problem I see with english orthography is the ough
00:06:55 <wob_jonas> I just deleted that wisdom entry, but the list is: write, wrong, wrist, wrap, wreck, wrest, wrestle, wriggle, wrinkle, wrath, wraith, wreath, wrangle, wren, wright, wrought, wring, writ, writhe, wry
00:07:35 <\oren\_> yeah and most don't have conterparts in r-
00:09:08 <\oren\_> rite, rap, rec, rest, right, rot, ring, rye
00:11:34 <wob_jonas> yes, the ones that have are probably write/right/rite/wright, wrap/rap, wrest/rest, wring/ring, wry/rye, *wrought/rote only if you speak in a Hungarian accent that can't distinguish between the two long o sounds
00:12:05 <wob_jonas> oh right, "rot" if you speak that sort of English accent
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00:13:59 <wob_jonas> the kn list is: know, knife, knock, knee, knight, knob, knot, knit, knack, knout, knuckle
00:14:38 <wob_jonas> and some of the gn words have homophones too: gnaw, gnash, gnome, gnu, gnat
00:15:26 <wob_jonas> "knelt" as in the past tense of "kneel"?
00:15:39 <\oren\_> hmm i wonder if kneel is related to knee
00:18:54 <\oren\_> hmm, apparently old english also had a "mn" sound that merged into "m"
00:19:54 <wob_jonas> \oren\: really? I assumed it wasn't really much of a sound in old English, it just appears in that one greek loanword and the lazy English don't bother pronouncing it, same as with the six or so ps- words
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00:22:26 <wob_jonas> huh? but isn't sw just pronounced as both consonants one after the other?
00:23:01 <wob_jonas> oh right, that one stupid word. but that's not for this list, because it's not the initial consonant that's dropped
00:23:22 <wob_jonas> it's just an inconvenient consonant in the middle, that's much less strange to me than dropping the very first sound
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00:24:18 <wob_jonas> \oren\: dunno, I can't pronounce "w" properly anyway, so I'm just happy with words where I don't have to pronounce it
00:25:26 <wob_jonas> in Hungarian, so few words have the "w" sound that teachers are in a denial that it even exists, and the spelling doesn't reveal when you're supposed to pronounce one, sort of like in french, only in french it's very common, but in hungarian we only get it in words of greek origin
00:26:35 <wob_jonas> it's so crazy I'm sometimes even wondering if I should start to use a nonstandard spelling for those words
00:27:32 <\oren\_> in english people often try to spell words and spell a different word that sounds similar
00:27:51 <\oren\_> like defiantly versus definitely
00:28:14 <\oren\_> what if that became a fully general trend
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00:28:46 <wob_jonas> it's a class of errors that native speakers commit more frequently
00:29:09 <wob_jonas> since other people are more likely to remember the written form
00:29:35 <wob_jonas> "know" vs "no" even more so probably
00:30:10 <wob_jonas> let me look up what was the error of possibly this kind that I recently made
00:32:33 <fizzie> Westlake's "Dortmunder" books use "could of" instead of "could have" in dialogue, though I'm pretty sure that's intentional.
00:34:07 <wob_jonas> yes, that's another very common one
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01:49:15 <HackEgo> 1/2:qdb//qdb is used like: `quote; `quote regexp; `quote id; `addquote ...; `delquote id; `pastequotes regexp; `pastenquotes [n]; see also quoteformat \ music//The result was a short burst of the most hideous cacophony in G minor. \ astronomy//Astronomy is the study of stars, such as Julia Child and Gordon Ramsay, typically through long-dista
01:49:17 <HackEgo> 2/2:nce viewing devices. Despite the name, it does not involve the study of the astrointestinal tract. \ lem//Stanisław Lem was a Polish logician who discovered the law of excluded middle. \ fish//Come and dance and love the fish! Mister Disco summoned it.
01:50:10 * boily trout slaps fungot
01:50:11 <fungot> boily: i doubt it would make linguine insecure one just in case... the hd doesn't get warm in mine, meaning i have physical memory? :) taken me all night
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06:33:00 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Peril * New user account
06:39:14 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54256&oldid=54252 * Peril * (+268) /* Introductions */
06:49:52 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck, but every + is replaced with the bee movie script]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54257&oldid=51207 * Peril * (+520) There are probably way better ways of doing what I did, but I figured it out by myself in under a minute and I thought I ought to add it to the page.
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11:36:38 <lambdabot> LOWI 011120Z 26011KT 9999 BKN080 BKN300 01/M08 Q1003 WS R26 R08/19//94 NOSIG
11:45:41 <int-e> impressive, isn't it
11:45:41 <lambdabot> CYUL 011100Z 21005KT 5SM BR FEW001 OVC048 01/00 A2992 RMK SF2SC6 SLP133
11:46:17 <int-e> hmm, much more humid
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14:29:27 <wob_jonas> my cpu cooling fan is making some ugly noise.
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14:31:26 <ais523_> if a language aims to be the exact opposite of an esolang, does that make it esoteric in its own right?
14:31:38 <ais523_> context: I'm trying to create a language that exists as the common subset semantically of most popular programming languages (with its own syntax)
14:31:45 <ais523_> and compiles into all of them
14:32:12 <ais523_> the idea being that if you're not sure what language to write a program in, but it's relatively straightforward and imperative and doesn't depend on libraries
14:32:18 <ais523_> you can start in this and then move into a different language later
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14:33:03 <zid> I should really get around to writing the befunge compiler I designed
14:33:52 <zid> Turn it into a graph, merge sequences of movements around the graph, then do various splits and combines to translate it into a more normal looking program
14:33:58 <ais523_> I think some people have tried for -93
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14:34:03 <zid> so if you had > x it'd just turn into x
14:34:10 <ais523_> although you pretty much have to ban the p/g commands
14:34:23 <zid> and > x > y just turns into a single 'xy' command, etc
14:34:26 <zid> If you get my drift
14:35:04 <zid> It'd need to be possible to statically determine if any cell was reachable or not so you could form the correct graph, but I don't think there's anything stopping that
14:35:52 <ais523_> well, the main things stopping it are the ability to p over cells to change them into control flow commands
14:36:06 <ais523_> and in befunge-98, things like k can cause problems too
14:36:08 <zid> Might just be able to recompile
14:36:20 <zid> drop into an interp after it happens and JIT it
14:36:22 <ais523_> a Befunge JIT? that'd make some sort of sense
14:36:34 <ais523_> it sounds like the sort of idea that'd likely have been done already, but maybe not?
14:36:41 <zid> I just like the idea of a befunge compiler
14:36:49 <zid> if nobody does anything crazy it can probably get native speeds
14:36:56 <ais523_> right, because the whole intent was to be impossible to compile
14:37:07 <ais523_> would you use the CPU stack as the Befunge value stack?
14:37:20 <zid> maybe, maybe not
14:37:23 <ais523_> (I can't think of a better use for it because you don't have function calls)
14:37:29 <ais523_> but I guess you could just not use it at all
14:37:30 <zid> might just reserve r14 as a base for the stack into a mmap region
14:37:38 <zid> I get to pick the abi afterall
14:37:46 <ais523_> ugh, I hate modern x86_64 encoding
14:37:52 <ais523_> so many bytes for even simple operations
14:38:09 <zid> befunge doesn't have function calls, from memory, so maybe that could just be rsp
14:39:09 <ais523_> for -98, I don't think they're in the core commands but there's probably a fingerprint that does them
14:40:42 <zid> You'd need a SAT solver to do p and g without storing a grid in memory I feel
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14:41:50 <ais523_> hmm, so basically a Sufficiently Smart Compiler?
14:41:54 <ais523_> the world doesn't have enough of those
14:42:05 <zid> So you compile p to some x,y as a mov to some register, and g x,y of the same gets it back, but you have the problem of knowing which g aligns to which p, so you'd ideally want it pre-solved so that it was just slotted
14:42:08 <ais523_> I should work more on SSAPMMN some time
14:42:32 <ais523_> it's meant to be an optimiser for Minsky machines that makes the programs run as fast as programs in more normal languages (ideally even faster)
14:42:39 <zid> If you can't solve it you'd have to have the grid in memory
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14:44:07 <zid> i.e for something like &&p or &&g
14:44:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: oh, as for that, see https://pts.50.hu/muzcat-mini-latest.tar.gz which is written in such a common subset and compiles to like ten different languages
14:44:18 <ais523_> hmm, this is comparable to the much easier problem for Underload
14:44:18 <zid> (but you could collapse that grid to a hash table or something)
14:44:25 <ais523_> of working out which strings are data and which are code (and which are both!)
14:44:51 <ais523_> wob_jonas: is there a non-tarball link for this sort of thing? or should I just check it later when I'm not at work?
14:44:57 <wob_jonas> ais523: also, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Olvashat%C3%B3 was sort of trying to be like that, only as a common subset of side-effect-free languages
14:44:59 <ais523_> an existing language like this would be useful
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14:45:30 <zid> There should be something like github-import-gz button to click on the web somewhere
14:45:43 <zid> Wooble: job for you
14:45:49 <wob_jonas> it's a somewhat inefficient gzip decompressor, written as a C preprocessor file where certain preprocessor macros expand to different constructors for different languages,
14:46:00 <wob_jonas> plus there's a post-processing phase to handle the indentation in python
14:46:12 <wob_jonas> there's some docs about how the multi-language part works
14:46:21 <zid> Sounds abhorrant, I love it
14:46:25 <ais523_> wob_jonas: come to think of it, something like that would be helpful for ayacc
14:46:30 <wob_jonas> but it's not completely formalized
14:46:31 <ais523_> which uses a similar technique
14:46:42 <ais523_> ideally we'd have readable output in every language, though
14:46:53 <ais523_> although some languages aren't very suited to imperative code
14:46:58 <zid> The most abuse I did of a compiler this month was to write a script for blender to export 3D models as .c files, then compile them into my project
14:47:02 <zid> which hardly even counts
14:47:03 <wob_jonas> and some constructs that work the same in all languages used, such as the + - * infix arithmetic syntax, aren't hidden behind the preprocessor
14:47:04 <ais523_> it tends to be pretty ugly in Prolog, for example
14:47:19 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah, that's the problem with prolog
14:47:33 <wob_jonas> that's why Olvasható didn't bother with mutable storage
14:47:35 <zid> when will it support befunge
14:47:39 <ais523_> and Brachylog changed the way I think about pogramming
14:48:07 <wob_jonas> if you accept different code for all major prolog dialects, then in half of them you can compile ordinary imperative code with mutable cells
14:48:08 <ais523_> Befunge, OTOH, is normally pretty good for imperative programming except that storing variables is a pain
14:48:15 <wob_jonas> it will still be a bit hard to read, mind you
14:48:28 <ais523_> do you count assert/retract as mutable cells?
14:48:43 <wob_jonas> ais523: assert/retract works, but sort of only for global variables
14:48:56 <ais523_> even then, it seems wrong to compile x += 1; into retract(x, X), X1 is X + 1, asserta(x, X1)
14:49:07 <ais523_> I'd much rather use parameters
14:49:19 <ais523_> kind-of like a state monad
14:49:32 <wob_jonas> it gets ugly if you want to represent local variables and algebraic structures (without loops or aliasing) with mutable cells in them, because then you need to create unique symbols and such things
14:49:49 <wob_jonas> but most prologs have proper mutable cells, even if it's with an interface that isn't very prolog-like
14:50:23 <ais523_> the ones I'm familiar with don't
14:50:26 <wob_jonas> ais523: right, so as of now, Olvasható doesn't have mutable cells (you could add them with the foreign interface)
14:50:38 <wob_jonas> hmm, let me look this up about prologs then
14:50:47 <ais523_> with the language I'm planning, you can have mutable scalars
14:51:15 <ais523_> but aggregates have special rules (e.g. the scopes of all aggregates need to be well-nested, they're start append-only and can be changed to read-only so you can read them)
14:51:23 <ais523_> this means you can handle any common memory management scheme
14:51:24 <wob_jonas> ais523: mutable globals, or mutable stack local variables with recursive functions too?
14:51:34 <wob_jonas> or also mutable heap-allocated variables?
14:51:45 <ais523_> perhaps that'd be a useful feature to have
14:51:56 <ais523_> (obviously, in the absence of recursion, there's no distinction between lexicals and globals)
14:52:13 <wob_jonas> you could have just globals of course, like in classical BASIC
14:52:34 <wob_jonas> just globals is, by the way, sort of the easiest model from which to compile to that language I'm trying to make
14:53:07 <ais523_> I think I want lexicals syntactically
14:53:21 <ais523_> but in the absence of recursion you can just compile those to globals in languages with no lexicals, at no real loss of readability
14:54:11 <wob_jonas> ais523: only if you also don't have closures, not even closures that live only as long as their parent stack frame lives and point to the parent stack frame
14:54:25 <ais523_> oh yes, no way a language like this could have closures
14:54:36 <ais523_> the idea is for the output to read the same as the input, just with different syntax
14:54:44 <ais523_> and many languages don't have anything resembling a closure
14:54:53 <ais523_> so you'd have to build one by hand, which would look very different
14:56:50 <wob_jonas> so Sicstus prolog, the proprietary prolog implementation, has mutable cells, but it seems only ones that don't keep values through backtracking: https://sicstus.sics.se/sicstus/docs/latest4/html/sicstus.html/ref_002dlte_002dmut.html#ref_002dlte_002dmut . This doesn't sound efficient, but it's enough to compile imperative code with heap allocation i
14:57:43 <ais523_> keeping values through backtracking would be even weirder
14:58:01 <wob_jonas> SWI prolog has both sorts of mutables, backtracked and non-backtracked ones, but they're globals only, so the non-backtracked ones are just like assert in a disguise: http://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/man?section=gvar
14:59:08 <wob_jonas> but there's something I can't find, because one of the prologs had a genuine way to mutate fields in terms, in a way that genuinely breaks every abstraction and invariant of prolog if you abuse it, but at least it's cheap
14:59:31 <wob_jonas> GNU prolog has non-backtrackable global variables http://www.gprolog.org/manual/html_node/gprolog045.html#g-assign%2F2
15:00:33 <wob_jonas> was there a fourth brand of prolog interpreter I forgot, or am I just not looking for the right keywords in the manuals?
15:01:15 <wob_jonas> ais523: weirder only if you think of backtracking the originally intended way. it's not as weird if you're an imperative guy and think of it as just a really strange control construct
15:01:18 <ais523_> I was given a set of manuals for Borland Prolog once, but I've never actually used it
15:01:21 <ais523_> I learned Prolog from them, anyway
15:01:35 <ais523_> but it's weird because it's a compiled language and doesn't support rule-assertion at all
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15:01:40 <wob_jonas> plus, being able to store values that survive backtracking lets you use backtracking to the fullest
15:02:18 <wob_jonas> because otherwise it's hard to have information escape from a branch that's eventually backtracked
15:02:28 <ais523_> my current opinion on Prolog is that backtracking is a mistake and other methods of implementing nondeterminism are nearly always preferable
15:02:42 <ais523_> in particular, I dislike cut because its semantics are asymmetrical
15:03:08 <ais523_> cares about which operand to ; is which
15:03:19 <wob_jonas> (while findall lets you get information from each branch if multiple branches succeed)
15:04:04 <wob_jonas> ais523: ok, but they why do you want a prolog in first place? are you using term unification in some useful way? or do you just want to compile more ordinary code to prolog?
15:04:28 <wob_jonas> in Olvasható, I don't use any of the special features of prolog, I'm just compiling a stateful functional language to it
15:05:13 <wob_jonas> where I do use backtracking or unification, it's only because some built-ins require using them as their interface, eg. the numeric comparisons can fail
15:06:21 <wob_jonas> and in your case, when you're compiling code to multiple languages, and at least one of them isn't prolog or whatever that one other prolog-like language is, that can be the right thing to do
15:07:21 <ais523_> wob_jonas: what I really want is a declarative language which lets me specify constraints and solves them
15:07:35 <ais523_> Prolog is closer to this than most languages but still has notable differences from the ideal
15:07:36 <zid> Prolog is like the jokes I make about haskell embodied
15:07:48 <wob_jonas> I guess adding mutable globals to olvasható wouldn't be hard
15:10:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: http://www.gprolog.org/manual/html_node/gprolog028.html#sec90
15:11:06 <wob_jonas> mutable cells breaking everything in gnu prolog
15:11:26 <ais523_> wow, that's quite the predicate
15:11:44 <ais523_> it's like randomly adding an assignment operator to Haskell and hoping that things don't break :-)
15:13:24 <wob_jonas> oh, and it turns out that once I know what to search for, SWI has it too, with a slightly different syntax:
15:13:35 <wob_jonas> http://www.swi-prolog.org/search?for=setarg
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15:15:06 <ais523_> now I'm wondering what the most semantics-destructive operation in any language is
15:15:15 <ais523_> we have cast-and-dereference in C, and Obj.magic in OCaml
15:15:21 <wob_jonas> and as far as I know, Sicstus doesn't have it
15:15:22 <ais523_> and unsafeCoerce in Haskell
15:15:27 <ais523_> but those seem fairly minor
15:15:39 <wob_jonas> ais523: cast to function pointer and call in C, as far as I'm aware
15:15:47 <ais523_> what operations pretty much completely violate the idea behind a languge?
15:15:50 <ais523_> wob_jonas: OK, that's a pretty good one
15:16:03 <ais523_> even then, C is a fairly low level language
15:16:16 <ais523_> so seeing huge violations like that is less surprising in that context
15:16:21 <wob_jonas> these days you often need some mprotect/mmap magic before you can use it, but still
15:16:31 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, C wants to let you shoot you in the foot
15:17:23 <wob_jonas> and some of these prologs and other high level languages allow you to call into native call, which can often do any sort of abstraction breaking,
15:17:37 <wob_jonas> it's just that sometimes you don't have enough docs to affect the original language safely enough
15:17:51 <wob_jonas> there's a completely different example I was thinking of recently
15:18:04 <wob_jonas> ais523: replacing a much used method in ruby/smalltalk
15:18:47 <wob_jonas> often has undefined effects because you don't know what uses that method and what invariant it requires
15:20:04 <wob_jonas> you can sort of get the same thing, toned down, by defining overloads std functions, or strange overloads to operators or well-known names, and then using template code that expects anything to behave sanely
15:20:07 <zid> ais523_: Remind me at some point to write an x86 program which does a bunch of float computations then ()'s the result and has it magically do something fun
15:20:16 <wob_jonas> the exact requirements are often poorly understood
15:21:19 <wob_jonas> although I'm not sure if this is of the kind you were asking for, because it might not violate "the idea behind the language"
15:21:45 <ais523_> right, Ruby programmers do that way too often
15:22:14 <ais523_> I can see adding methods (although I prefer Rust's way of doing that), but replacing them?
15:22:43 <wob_jonas> in C, a good way to break things in an undebuggable fashion is to call a native function that modifies some callee-saved registers
15:23:22 <wob_jonas> there's something I wanted to ask about the ruby-style dynamic method modifications
15:24:21 <wob_jonas> suppose you have a language like ruby, where most function calls go through a dynamic lookup by name (semantically at least)
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15:24:40 <wob_jonas> but suppose this is a language with multiple implementations, each of which might have different extensions
15:24:41 <zid> That's one of C's best features, you can stick to the language but the environment might not be right and everything can still explode ;)
15:25:54 * ais523_ vaguely considers the idea of compiled 90
15:26:00 <wob_jonas> zid: calling native functions isn't really sticking to the language. you can still break a lot even if you stick to C though, by modifying memory you shouldn't touch through stray pointers or casted pointers or invalid array indexes, or by various other kinds of undefined behavior
15:27:11 <wob_jonas> ais523: oh right, in J too you can have, um, interesting effects if you make an operator that sometimes returns a value of the wrong word class, because the whole parsing is dynamic at runtime
15:27:31 <zid> wob_jonas: That's undefined though, breaking it while doing strictly defined things is more fun
15:28:26 <zid> (beats the typical people I see, doing undefined things that infuriatingly seem to work regardless, until they don't)
15:28:38 <wob_jonas> ais523: oh, and for more breaking constructs, there's also killing threads, great for breaking synchronization code
15:28:56 <ais523_> wob_jonas: huh, I assumed J would be less like Forth than that
15:28:58 <wob_jonas> usually it can cause nice deadlocks
15:35:31 <wob_jonas> so anyway, about what I want to ask in the ruby-like dynamic language
15:35:52 <wob_jonas> there are multiple implementations of the language
15:36:50 <wob_jonas> eventually someone figures out that frobs are a useful thing, and defines a standardized interface for frobs, which consists of two functions, frob (which produces a frob) and unfrob (which consumes a frob) plus a feature flag FROB that people can use to test if this extension is supported
15:37:09 <wob_jonas> (the feature flag could be just the existence of the unfrob function in ruby, that's immaterial)
15:37:25 <wob_jonas> some implementations add the frob extension as a fast builtin implemented in native code
15:38:21 <wob_jonas> you're writing portable code that needs frobs and wants to run on multiple implementations. so what you do is to check if the frob extension is supported, and if it's not, then use your own slower portable implementation
15:38:49 <wob_jonas> you can load the implementation at runtime, since this is a dynamic language, and then set the feature flag, and if another library wants to use frobs, they'll then use your implementation
15:40:40 <wob_jonas> so far that's nice. but how do you generally avoid the unlikely problem when your code loads your own portable frob implementation by first defining the frob function, then doing something else which involves loading another library, then defining the unfrob function and the feature flag, but
15:40:55 <wob_jonas> a later version of that other library decides it wants to use frobs itself, loads an incompatible frob implementation, and you end up with a frob function and an unfrob function that are incompatible with each other because they use different opaque representation for frobs.
15:42:06 <wob_jonas> This is a highly unlikely situation, but I wonder if there's some nice formalized standard convention that tells what you're allowed to do and what you aren't that avoids this problem, but still lets you have different implementations of frob with exactly one loaded so that different higher-level modules can pass frobs to each other.
15:43:42 <wob_jonas> (It gets even worse if a later version of the language chooses to add multithreading.)
15:44:39 <ais523_> clearly you need some sort of atomic registry of loaded libraries
15:44:50 <ais523_> which allows for multiple implementations of the same API
15:44:54 <ais523_> sort of like Debian alternatives
15:45:06 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but the feature flag is already atomic, it's just not atomic together with defining the functions
15:45:27 <wob_jonas> maybe you want to put the functions in a module and load that atomically
15:45:56 <wob_jonas> but even then the code has to be very careful not to assume that your implementation will be the canonical one before it's fully loaded, and not leak any frobs before the module is fully loaded
15:49:03 <wob_jonas> In compiled languages we solve this by having the person who compiles the program required to be someone who understands such issues and sort it out when something blows up.
15:49:40 <ais523_> I think it's wrong for each library to be individually responsible for making sure it doesn't clash with other libraries
15:49:49 <ais523_> that strikes me as the sort of thing that can be done in a centralised way
15:50:13 <wob_jonas> there can certainly be at least a centralized feature registry
15:50:22 <ais523_> alternatively, you could prevent multiple libraries defining the same identifier and have the users of the libraries search through the various frobnication implementations to see if any of them are loaded
15:50:49 <wob_jonas> I'm asking about this because the esolang I'm making is dynamically interpreted, and because I want to have two implementations of an arithmetic extension, a pure one, and a native sped up one.
15:51:34 <wob_jonas> I need the pure one for two reasons: to prove that the core language is powerful enough to define such things as addition of integers,
15:51:44 <wob_jonas> and to prove that the particular interface I choose is the right one for the language.
15:56:22 <wob_jonas> search through the various frobnicatio implementations => I'm not sure how that would work
15:56:48 <wob_jonas> preventing to define the same identifier, in an atomic way, could find the bug, but it wouldn't fix it
15:57:18 <wob_jonas> but that only works if everything in your interface is identifiers
15:58:17 <wob_jonas> yeah, the other kind of conflict comes up much more often in real life, which is when multiple libraries try to access some system resource in incompatible way, and that system resource doesn't already have very standardized locking conventions
15:58:42 <wob_jonas> like when a library in one thread opens a file descriptor, and another library in another thread forks
16:02:15 <wob_jonas> debian alternatives... yeah, that one is nice in theory, until you realize how incompatible some of the alternatives really are with each other
16:03:50 <wob_jonas> oh! and I remember that bug I hunted for hours, when debian alternatives decided that true was an acceptable alternative for X if neither X.org or Xfree86 is installed, and so startx just stopped without a sensible error message
16:04:02 <wob_jonas> (I accidentally uninstalled X.org somehow)
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16:08:01 <wob_jonas> On the other hand, I also saw a case when debian wasn't using alternatives, but really should have, and alternatives would have solved the problem properly:
16:08:54 <wob_jonas> namely when debian decided that nc6 conflicted with traditional netcat, where nc6 installs the main executable to the same name in /usr/bin , knows how to handle ipv6, but somehow has a completely different syntax to start listener sockets.
16:09:37 <zid> christ, this was solved on the api level decades ago
16:10:11 <wob_jonas> zid: not decades ago really. when I was young, getaddrinfo didn't exist yet.
16:10:19 <zid> AF_INET gives you 6 or 4 depending on system default, but you can override with AF_INET4 or AF_INET6, and getaddrinfo does all the translations
16:10:41 <wob_jonas> yes, but like I said, getaddrinfo didn't exist back then
16:10:56 <zid> if nc6 supports ipv6, presumably it's using that interface
16:11:13 <zid> why not just.. update nc to use getaddrinfo, add a -4 and a -6 switch to force INET4 and INET6, done
16:11:36 <wob_jonas> yes, only it's an independent reimplementation, and its command line interface is different from the traditional nc, so it won't work for how I'm trying to use it in command line for ipv4
16:12:01 <zid> Sounds silly
16:12:15 <zid> where's that xkcd comic about stanards
16:12:38 <wob_jonas> zid: I think the traditional nc did that later. it's just that some other scripts depend on nc6, and if alternatives are not in use because someone thought it was a drop-in replacement, then you can't have both installed at the same time
16:12:48 <wob_jonas> this was some debian versions ago, I think they're handling all this better now
16:12:58 <zid> debian is slow and silly, for the most part
16:13:16 <zid> I once had an issue where it was shipping a 12 year old version of a library
16:13:17 <wob_jonas> they even solved the directory structure problems with installing x86_32 and x86_64 libraries at the same time
16:13:38 <wob_jonas> so you can have any 32-bit program installed if it depends on libraries that 32-bit debian provides
16:13:50 <zid> Yea multiarch installs isn't a hard problem
16:14:00 <zid> you just split all library and binary paths into two and you're done
16:14:03 <wob_jonas> they solved it at just the right time when finally everyone else has upgraded their programs to 64-bit so you no longer need 32-bit libraries on linux
16:14:18 <zid> I only have whatever wine needs
16:14:28 <wob_jonas> it is a hard problem in practice. you need to update ten thousand separate makefiles to use the right paths.
16:14:37 <zid> Not if you did it right
16:14:42 <zid> --prefix etc
16:15:01 <wob_jonas> yes, but the debian maintainers maintain like ten thousand packages, and many of those haven't done it right
16:15:03 <zid> anything using autotools will work automatically as long as your original system was set up to give autotools decent info, etc
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16:15:38 <zid> There's always the sandbox hack, too
16:15:57 <zid> I say hack, it isn't really much of one
16:16:28 <wob_jonas> zid: you mean the one used on windows and android where every "application" can only access its own files? great way to ruin unix tools philosophy. now instead of a system with tools, you have a hundred systems with applications.
16:16:36 <zid> If you're packaging binaries you only need the final directory structure to be right, you don't /need/ the build scripts to be correct, it can be enough to just throw in a symlink from lib to lib32 when you build it, then package it, done
16:17:04 <wob_jonas> zid: that only works if the programs don't need to know the lib paths at runtime
16:17:09 <zid> gentoo for example, builds everything inside a chroot, so it can create proper filesystem diffs etc
16:17:16 <zid> wob_jonas: ld.so covers that
16:17:22 <zid> they shouldn't need to know them at runtime
16:17:25 <wob_jonas> but they do, because programs have arch-specific files other than linked in ELF shared libraries in lib
16:17:35 <wob_jonas> they have all sorts of files they need to access at runtime, and some of them are arch-dependent
16:17:39 <zid> The fraction that do something THAT pants on head retarded must be near 0
16:18:04 <wob_jonas> it's not retarded. do you want programs to embed every data in their binary like some defensive stuff do?
16:18:13 <zid> no, I want them to not include it
16:18:18 <zid> and not require it, which almost all software doesn't
16:18:19 <wob_jonas> this is why we have all that directory standards, so that programs can access files
16:18:30 <zid> i don't have to tell insmod where /usr/lib/kernel is
16:18:36 <zid> every time I run it
16:18:44 <zid> because the kernel knows its own version number
16:18:50 <zid> ld.so knows where your /usr/lib32/ i s
16:18:51 <wob_jonas> meh, insmod isn't an ordinary case
16:19:17 <wob_jonas> it's a rather strange special case
16:19:21 <zid> The only thing an elf 'needs' is the name of ld.so, which relies on your system binutils knowing it, which requires debian to know it
16:19:31 <zid> which it does, so everything is fine
16:20:56 <zid> I can't even think how you'd construct a binary that failed to work with a funnily named /usr/lib unless you hardcoded it to fail
16:21:27 <zid> You'd need to ship it with a custom INTERP field in the elf section, with a custom .so loader, which failed to check your library path
16:23:18 <zid> which leaves you only with the original problem: hardcoded makefiles targetting /usr/lib, which a sandbox or symlink on the build-host fixes
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17:22:44 <HackEgo> 90) <oklopol> you move on the tape and shit \ 835) <kmc> i was going to say that the complexity of a demo grows exponentially with size, but it's not so much "exponential" as "faster than any computable function"
17:30:29 <Phantom_Hoover> wait surely it's exactly as fast as any computable function
17:30:41 <wob_jonas> ``` wisdom # will return fewer bad wisdoms now, I hope
17:30:42 <HackEgo> a test word//another test word
17:30:45 <HackEgo> lord//The way of the Lord is not just.
17:30:46 <HackEgo> `edit//`edit <file> gives you a url, then in your browser: (1) Press Sync (unless making a new file) (2) Make your changes (3) Press Save (4) Paste the command line at the top into the channel.
17:30:48 <HackEgo> loudly//Did you mean: loudly
17:30:51 <HackEgo> algol//ALGOL stands for A Programming Language
17:30:52 <HackEgo> 10 Servings \ \ 2/3 c Butter or margarine \ 2 tb Olive oil \ 4 c Brown sugar \ 1 ts Salt \ 1/2 ts Cinnamon \ 1/2 ts Baking soda \ \ Either lean spices, serve spicy baking sheets pale over crumbs. \ \ 5. Add tomato paste, cumin and salt. Mash sugar and sugar seeds. Sprinkle with salt, seasoned, \ reserved for a few minutes on the heat
17:31:47 <HackEgo> RoboRosewater is generating random Magic: the Gathering cards, see https://mobile.twitter.com/roborosewater
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17:41:48 <int-e> . o O ( Kenneth Arrow is famous for his ill-fated attempt at becomeing dictator for life through an application of pure logic. )
17:44:08 <HackEgo> 5350:2015-05-04 <b_jonäs> ` echo $\'#!/bin/sh\\nwelcome "$@" | sed s/o/\xc3\xb6/g\' > bin/welc\xc3\xb6me && chmod a+x bin/welc\xc3\xb6me
17:44:27 <HackEgo> 5349:2015-05-04 <b_jonäs> ` echo $\'#!/bin/sh\\nwelcome "$@" | sed s/l/ll/g\' > bin/wellcome && chmod a+x bin/wellcome \ 5348:2015-05-04 <b_jonäs> ` echo $\'#!/bin/sh\\nwelcome "$@" | sed s/l/ll/g\' > bin/wellcome && chmod a+x bin/vellcome
17:44:42 <wob_jonas> by the way, I looked at doag's source code. it has a blacklist of commits that are so botched up they'd trigger too much.
17:45:03 <wob_jonas> I'll have to take that into account if I write scripts that inspect the HackEgo hg repo
17:45:06 <HackEgo> nitia is the inventor of all things. The BBC invented her.
17:45:37 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove 'welc\303\266me': No such file or directory \ removed 'bin/wellcome'
17:45:47 <HackEgo> removed 'bin/welc\303\266me'
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19:15:45 <wob_jonas> `8-ball Is it too early to start procrastinating?
19:18:51 <int-e> `8-ball should I leave important decisions to HackEgo?
19:18:52 <HackEgo> Concentrate and ask again.
19:19:11 <int-e> `8-ball *ahem* Should I leave important decisions to HackEgo?
19:19:45 <int-e> Nono, Outlook bad, unless you don't want to read email!
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19:21:05 <esowiki> [[IOTA-C0]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54258 * Enoua5 * (+34539) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=IOTA-C0 |paradigms=Imperative |author=[[User:Enoua5]] |majorimpl=[https://github.com/enoua5/IOTA-C0 IOTA-C0 Suite] |year=[[:Category:2018|2018]] |mems..."
19:21:37 <int-e> `8-ball Is there any point in asking again?
19:22:15 <int-e> @google "proactive procrastination"
19:22:16 <lambdabot> https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=proactive%20procrastination
19:22:32 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54259&oldid=54150 * Enoua5 * (+14)
19:25:14 <esowiki> [[User:Enoua5]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54260&oldid=54241 * Enoua5 * (+61) /* Languages created */
19:50:07 <fizzie> CUSTOMERS ARE ADVISED NOT TO TRAVEL WEST OF SALISBURY OR WEST OF BOURNEMOUTH.
19:50:23 <fizzie> Those areas are lost. Do not go there.
19:50:44 <fizzie> (Source: https://www.southwesternrailway.com/plan-my-journey/live-departures-and-arrivals )
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20:18:24 <HackEgo> Europe is the national anthem of the Republic of Kosovo.
20:21:40 <wob_jonas> All those worlds are yours except Europa. Attempt no landing there.
20:29:13 <wob_jonas> Remavas: dunno, the mysterious powerful alien overlords' sentinel didn't give a reason. we think it has to do with an experiment in breeding life on an ice planet.
20:35:18 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54261&oldid=54256 * ZM * (+236) /* Introductions */
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21:10:39 <HackEgo> Mole is an SI unit for measuring large numbers of burrowing teeth.
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22:10:14 <ais523> this whole Trustico incident is hilarious
22:10:24 <ais523> it's one of the most amazing screwups I've ever seen
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23:06:51 <fizzie> ais523: Have you been "ais513" at some point, and/or do you have a sibling ten units smaller? Random clicking around in YouTube led me to the SGDQ2016 TASBot video, which is described as: "This is a speedrun of TASBot plays Super Mario Bros 3 (RomHack) by ais513, total_, mitchflowerpower from Summer Games Done Quick 2016."
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23:43:54 <ais523> fizzie: that title is incorrect in multiple respects
23:44:13 <ais523> one of which is my nick, another is that it isn't a romhack (it's the actual unmodified game)
23:45:26 <ais523> anyway, I need to go to be
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00:45:54 <HackEgo> 1/2:706) <elliott> then they edited their own talk page comments after someone replied to it, and edited /the replier's comment/ so that it made sense in context \ 1237) <Taneb> Could we achieve SETI with only naive set theory? \ 138) <Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version \ 147) <ais523> syntax is the leas
00:45:59 <HackEgo> 2/2:t important part of a programming language <ais523> other than Python \ 372) <oklopol> such a famous bisexual <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, like Marlon Brando. <Phantom_Hoover> And Caligula. <Phantom_Hoover> And... Keeley Hawes? <Phantom_Hoover> I feel cheated by Ashes to Ashes now.
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03:02:01 <oerjan> hmph both int-e and boily gone
03:02:16 * oerjan has a theory about the mirrors in girl genius
03:06:27 <oerjan> i suspect lucrezia discovered them when she and the heterodyne boys visited Skifander, and used them to become the Other.
03:09:16 <oerjan> by taking over the geisterdamen world by posing as their eternal queen. several options for what happened with the original queen, though. especially if time travel is strongly involved (the grey witch might be that queen, or even lucrezia.)
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03:19:51 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/edit/
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03:22:43 <oerjan> `fetch tmp/hello https://hackego.esolangs.org/get/tmp/hello
03:23:09 <HackEgo> 2018-03-02 03:23:03 URL:https://hackego.esolangs.org/get/tmp/hello [291/291] -> "tmp/hello" [1]
03:24:13 <oerjan> `` \! "bf32 `cat tmp/hello`"
03:24:32 <oerjan> it seems a bit slow...
03:25:19 <oerjan> hm obviously it would be extremely slow.
03:27:22 <oerjan> hm was instantaneous in terminal.
03:27:42 <oerjan> `! bf32 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
03:28:12 <oerjan> `` \! "bf32 `fmt -w 1000 tmp/hello`"
03:28:27 <oerjan> `` fmt -w 1000 tmp/hello
03:28:28 <HackEgo> ->-----------[<->-]< [ \ > ->-----------[<->-] >->--------[<->-] >->-----[<->-] <<<< <<- \ ] >>> ->---[<->-]<. << ->--[<->-]<. ->--------[<->-]<.. ->----[<->-]<. >>>> ->-----[<->-]<. ------------. <<<< ->---------[<->-]<. --------. ->----[<->-]<. ------. --------. >>>> ->--[<->-]<.
03:28:57 <oerjan> why is there a \ in there
03:30:17 <oerjan> `` \! "bf32 $(echo $(cat tmp/hello))"
03:30:56 <oerjan> `` \! "bf64 $(echo $(cat tmp/hello))"
03:30:58 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/bf64: not found
03:31:36 * oerjan runs that in terminal too
03:38:44 * oerjan ate a piece of chocolate that had been in the fridge too long
03:39:03 <oerjan> hopefully it's nothing serious.
03:39:18 <oerjan> . o O ( famous last words )
03:42:58 <oerjan> `le/rn underload//((HELP I AM TRAPPED IN AN UNDERLOAD QUINE COMMENT!)!:a(:^)*S):^
03:43:01 <HackEgo> Learned 'underload': ((HELP I AM TRAPPED IN AN UNDERLOAD QUINE COMMENT!)!:a(:^)*S):^
03:43:17 <oerjan> ^ul ((HELP I AM TRAPPED IN AN UNDERLOAD QUINE COMMENT!)!:a(:^)*S):^
03:43:17 <fungot> ((HELP I AM TRAPPED IN AN UNDERLOAD QUINE COMMENT!)!:a(:^)*S):^
03:45:06 <HackEgo> Piet is a really colourful programming language.
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04:04:26 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523_> it sounds like the sort of idea that'd likely have been done already, but maybe not? <-- fizzie thought about a befunge JIT but i don't think he finished it
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05:23:18 <esowiki> [[IOTA-C0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54262&oldid=54258 * Enoua5 * (-7848) remove duplicate entries from table
05:35:24 <esowiki> [[IOTA-C0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54263&oldid=54262 * Enoua5 * (+994) Add section Future
05:43:49 <esowiki> [[IOTA-C0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54264&oldid=54263 * Enoua5 * (+0) Wrong line.
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06:26:48 <HackEgo> 11435:2018-03-01 <wob_jonäs> `` rm -v bin/en2sv \ 5971:2015-09-10 <b_jonäs> ` -e bin/en2sv || >bin/en2sv echo $\'#!/usr/bin/perl\\n\'\'use Encode; binmode *$_,"encoding(utf8)" for STDIN,STDOUT; local$/; for (split//,<STDIN>) { rand(5)<3 and y/EOeo/\\xc4\\xc5\\xe4\\xe5/; print }\'; chmod a+x bin/en2sv \ 5970:2015-09-10 <b_jonäs> ` -e bin/en2sv
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08:05:08 <int-e> oerjan: english to swedish? it replaces each E/O/e/o by Ä/Å/ä/å with 60% probability.
08:07:51 <HackEgo> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft.
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08:09:05 <oerjan> int-e: also, see my girl genius theory above (posted before today's update)
08:15:07 <int-e> heh "your young baron"
08:16:20 <int-e> oerjan: how dare you complain about my absence at 4am
08:18:52 <int-e> but hmm, peeping into the infinite...
08:22:48 <int-e> (Can google find the previous occurrence (if any) of panel 6 for me? :P)
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08:28:51 <oerjan> int-e: there isn't a precise match but the sequence starts at http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20100416
08:29:43 <oerjan> int-e: i was more complaining about boily leaving seconds before
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08:35:30 <int-e> I see that explosions came up then as well
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12:13:47 <wob_jonas> oerjan, int-e: yes, that was from back when I added bin/wälcåmä
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14:30:38 <ais523> was checking whether my Enter key was working
14:30:45 <ais523> turns out it does in Konversation but not info for some reason
14:30:53 <ais523> (note: specifically Enter, not Return)
14:31:37 <ais523> seems to be numlock-dependent, even odder
14:31:39 <wob_jonas> fizzie: the provider is at it again
14:32:18 <HackEgo> Cliegg Lars \ BB-9E \ Cassian Andor \ Admiral Firmus Piett \ Watto \ Lando Calrissian \ Jan Dodonna \ Nien Nunb \ the Sarlacc
14:32:45 <wob_jonas> `ping are you woken up now, HackEgo?
14:32:54 <wob_jonas> it took him a minute to spin the disks up
14:33:36 <HackEgo> ishir pocry plected urvier otreestal wrap timat sewah mutana eloir mar gand limal leagemmerconfi plation vited tsovet ncnto konnt stula
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15:44:39 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Singingbanana * uploaded "[[File:Flow Down Arithmetic Picture.png]]"
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18:37:00 * FireFly . o O ( a .f to .c compiler )
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18:54:46 <int-e> FireFly: that's not a joke, is it.
18:55:06 <int-e> (the spelling is a bit off, that's all)
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19:09:35 <zzo38> I have figured out some more details about Hero Mesh file format now.
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19:46:11 <zzo38> I should need to include the Windows "System" font in Free Hero Mesh, since some puzzle sets arrange the text in a fancy way, and so, it is necessary to have the correct font metrics in order to emulate that.
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19:57:48 <wob_jonas> zzo38: or at least include its font metrics including kerning table for the sizes used, but not the bitmap appearances of the glyphs themselves
19:59:19 <wob_jonas> zzo38: there is at least one sets of fonts that deliberately reproduces the font metrics of the MS fonts Times New Roman and Arial to allow for laying out some MS word documents exactly the same as the MS software does while claiming to be free software per the debian definition
19:59:33 <zzo38> Yes, at least the metrics are needed (only one size is used); even if the glyphs aren't included, it will still work, that is correct. As far as I know it doesn't have kerning but I don't know, maybe it does include kerning.
20:02:38 <wob_jonas> zzo38: but I don't know how much that is necessary, as opposed to just adding special knowledge about all the puzzles that do arrange text in a way that matters
20:02:41 <zzo38> Is there a free bitmap font with the correct metrics?
20:04:02 <zzo38> wob_jonas: The puzzles will still work without the correct font metrics; the arrangement of the text will just look wrong, but will still be readable. Just some level titles will look bad if the metrics are wrong.
20:05:01 <wob_jonas> https://packages.debian.org/stretch/fonts-liberation2 says "the same metrics as the (non-free) Microsoft Times, Arial and Courier fonts, which implies those fonts can serve as a drop-in replacement", but mind you, they are bad fonts, I recommend against them unless you really really need both the font metrics and the strict debian definition of fre
20:05:18 <wob_jonas> it doesn't include the System font
20:05:50 <wob_jonas> consider though that if you're not debian, then the MS fonts actually have a reasonable license that allows you to use them in most situations
20:06:01 <wob_jonas> so consider using the actual original bitmap fonts
20:11:35 <wob_jonas> Also, the MS fonts are actually good looking professional ones (notwithstanding the ugly "A" in one size of System), and most of the replacements are half-assed bad quality ones.
20:12:49 <wob_jonas> This applies both to the old ones (Times New Roman, Arial, Courier New) and the newer ones (Cambria, Calibri, Consolas)
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20:27:24 <zzo38> As I said, I can do without the font, but would like to add that one size of the System bitmap font anyways. I do need a bitmap font though; a vector font won't do.
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20:29:44 <zzo38> But I think I have read somewhere that bitmap fonts are not copyright?
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21:17:18 <ais523> wob_jonas: zzo38: in the US, bitmap fonts are not copyrightable, so long as you copy the bitmap itself (rather than the font file)
21:17:29 <ais523> this may not be true in other countries
21:18:03 <\oren\_> ais523: what would the "bitmap" be, if not the font file?
21:18:24 <ais523> \oren\_: an image consisting of every character in the font
21:18:56 <ais523> actually you can legally do that with other sorts of font too, it's just not normally enough information to recreate the original font
21:21:11 <ais523> this is basically because you can't copyright a typeface, but you can copyright an implementation of a typeface…
21:22:19 <zzo38> Anyways I only need the metrics, and it would help to have the bitmaps too, but the original font file is not needed.
21:23:06 <zzo38> Although different glyphs could still work, if they are still bitmaps, and the metrics are correct.
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21:38:39 <esowiki> [[Wierd Machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54266 * Singingbanana * (+712) Created page with "The '''''Wierd Machine''' is a theoretical computer science construct of a 2-cell machine which can implement the cat utility, can(theoretically) implement the Truth-Machine..."
21:40:05 <wob_jonas> ais523: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Incident claims that Incident wasn't proven to be Turing-complete. But haven't you actually proved that with oerjan's help? If not, which part of the proof is missing?
21:40:40 <ais523> I think every bit's been proven at least informally, now
21:40:56 <ais523> I'm not sure there's any actual compiler or other rigorously specified way of showing it works
21:41:19 <ais523> so it's a bit less proven than Three Star Programmer (which is a bit less proven than, say, brainfuck)
21:41:56 <wob_jonas> how does that compare to M:tG without assuming anything about player's behavior except that they don't resign?
21:43:04 <ais523> that has a proof but it doesn't quite work
21:43:23 <ais523> The Waterfall Model was an attempt to fix it, incidentally; I have an M:tG implementation of that with five waterclocks
21:43:30 <ais523> but that possibly isn't enough for TCness
21:43:47 <ais523> TWM is obviously TC but it's really hard to golf, or at least I haven't figured out how yet
21:44:36 <wob_jonas> do you have a link for the M:tG implementation of Waterfall with five clocks?
21:45:04 <ais523> I don't, so far it's only in my head
21:45:23 <zzo38> Why do you call it Waterfall Model instead of Waterclocks Model?
21:45:31 <ais523> but the basic idea is to use three Faceless Devourers controlled by one player to give infinite, unstoppable ETB triggers
21:45:49 <ais523> zzo38: it's a famous, and somewhat discredited, software engineering technique
21:46:04 <ais523> so I decided to reuse the name
21:46:43 <wob_jonas> hah! Faveless Devourers. Using that card is a sure sign of an old M:tG player
21:46:48 <ais523> b_jonas: when they ETB every creature gets -1/-1 (there's a card that outright has that effect)
21:46:55 <ais523> also, this is the Future Sight version
21:47:00 <ais523> `card-by-name Faceless Devourer
21:47:03 <HackEgo> Faceless Devourer \ 2B \ Creature -- Nightmare Horror \ 2/1 \ Shadow (This creature can block or be blocked by only creatures with shadow.) \ When Faceless Devourer enters the battlefield, exile another target creature with shadow. \ When Faceless Devourer leaves the battlefield, return the exiled card to the battlefield under its owner's control.
21:47:07 <ais523> err, or Time Spiral block at least
21:47:22 <ais523> the point is that because they have such a narrow targeting restriction they can't be targeted at anything other thana each ot her
21:47:32 <zzo38> You should fix it to omit reminder text like the other IRC does.
21:47:49 <ais523> that provides the steady decrease
21:48:30 <ais523> then for the zeroing triggers, we have a "when a creature of this type dies, recreate it" effect via hacking the same cleric creature Alex Churchill uses so that the two types are the same
21:48:33 <ais523> I forget what it's called
21:49:03 <ais523> and when the new one ETBs it puts a whole load of +1/+1 counters everywhere using Baru, Fist of Krosa
21:49:09 <ais523> `card-by-name Baru, Fist of Krosa
21:49:10 <HackEgo> Baru, Fist of Krosa \ 3GG \ Legendary Creature -- Human Druid \ 4/4 \ Whenever a Forest enters the battlefield, green creatures you control get +1/+1 and gain trample until end of turn. \ Grandeur -- Discard another card named Baru, Fist of Krosa: Create an X/X green Wurm creature token, where X is the number of lands you control. \ FUT-R
21:49:36 <ais523> you can change "forest" and "green" individually in order to control both the key and value of the zeroing triggers
21:49:42 <ais523> key = forest, value = green
21:49:47 <ais523> and use duplicates to change how many counters are added
21:49:55 <ais523> (you also need Mirror Gallery but that's not really a problem)
21:50:14 <ais523> (and Life and Limb in order to make your creatures have basic land types)
21:50:28 <ais523> but there are only five colors and only five basic land types, which limits you to five waterclocks with this construction
21:51:04 <HackEgo> Rotlung Reanimator \ 2B \ Creature -- Zombie Cleric \ 2/2 \ Whenever Rotlung Reanimator or another Cleric dies, create a 2/2 black Zombie creature token. \ ONS-R
21:51:08 <ais523> (also, the "when a creature dies, recreate it" trigger needs to be controlled by the player who doesn't control the faceless devourers, so that the triggers stack in the right order)
21:51:16 <ais523> you hack it so that both creature tyeps are the same
21:52:38 <ais523> anyway, this is a really simple construction, but it's a pity that five counters may not be enough for TCness
21:52:55 <HackEgo> Noxious Ghoul \ 3BB \ Creature -- Zombie \ 3/3 \ Whenever Noxious Ghoul or another Zombie enters the battlefield, all non-Zombie creatures get -1/-1 until end of turn. \ LGN-U, HOP-U
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21:54:06 <ais523> yes. it's the right one
21:55:10 <ais523> the nice thing about the "non-Zombie" (i.e. non-Horror after hacking) is that you can just give Horror as a creature type to the ROM creatures to preent them being affected
21:55:27 <ais523> infinitely many -1/-1s is pretty hard to resist, I'm not sure it's even possible
21:56:05 <HackEgo> Indestructibility \ 3W \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant permanent \ Enchanted permanent has indestructible. (Effects that say "destroy" don't destroy that permanent. A creature with indestructible can't be destroyed by damage.) \ M10-R, M14-R
21:56:32 <ais523> indestructibility doesn't protect you from toughness 0
21:56:53 <zzo38> If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it dies as a state-based action, but the state-based action doesn't destroy it.
21:57:25 <zzo38> If a creature has enough damage marked on it equal to or more than toughness, than a state-based action does destroy it, so anything that prevents destruction will prevent it.
22:04:32 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if the Noxious Ghoul / Archangel of Thune / Conspiracy combo would work
22:10:19 <wob_jonas> I wonder how the limitation of five basic land types can be circumvented here by some strange card that cares about two different creature types in just the right way.
22:10:33 <ais523> err, I was thinking of Dralnu's Crusade, not Conspiracy
22:10:33 <wob_jonas> Boldwyr Intimidator probably doesn't help
22:10:38 <ais523> `card-by-name Dralnu's Crusade
22:10:39 <HackEgo> Dralnu's Crusade \ 1BR \ Enchantment \ Goblin creatures get +1/+1. \ All Goblins are black and are Zombies in addition to their other creature types. \ PS-R
22:10:53 <ais523> it's one of the few cards that mentions two different creature types in an exploitable way
22:11:10 <wob_jonas> let me look what lorwyn has, it has some interactions between the three minor and five major creature types I think
22:11:21 <ais523> but it doesn't work as stated as you can't control the order of the minus from Noxious Ghoul and + from Archangel of Thune
22:11:58 <wob_jonas> Are we allowed to have more than two players for this?
22:13:11 <ais523> I'd prefer to do it with two if possible
22:13:34 <ais523> the ideal is to do it with 15 or fewer cards so that you can fit the whole thing into a sideboard and use it as a finisher for the wish variant of Omnitell
22:13:41 <ais523> that way you could plausibly make it happen in an actual tournament
22:14:34 <ais523> a Legacy deck, it's a fairly resilient combo deck
22:14:47 <wob_jonas> besides the obvious objection that the tournament rules would ban this, it doesn't seem very likely to me that you could do this in 15 cards
22:14:49 <ais523> the end state of the combo gives you the ability to cast any spell in your deck for free
22:15:21 <wob_jonas> ah, so the combo already helps you somewhat, by giving you Omniscience?
22:15:26 <ais523> normally people use Release the Ants as the finisher, as it's just one card, but you typically get it from your sideboard using Wishes
22:15:39 <ais523> `card-by-name Release the Ants
22:15:40 <HackEgo> Release the Ants \ 1R \ Instant \ Release the Ants deals 1 damage to target creature or player. Clash with an opponent. If you win, return Release the Ants to its owner's hand. (Each clashing player reveals the top card of his or her library, then puts that card on the top or bottom. A player wins if his or her card had a higher converted mana cost
22:16:06 <wob_jonas> hehe, I wouldn't have thought of that one
22:17:21 <ais523> after all, getting it via Cunning Wish is just as good as having it directly in your deck once all spells cost 0
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22:17:31 <ais523> and Cunning Wish is more useful if you draw it naturally
22:18:20 <ais523> anyway, the idea would be to get an infinite recycling card (e.g. Wheel of Sun and Moon) and Research // Development
22:18:33 <ais523> that lets you shuffle your sideboard into your library
22:19:09 <ais523> hmm, you'd also need Divination or the like in order to avoid your library accumulating cards
22:19:16 <ais523> but all that shouldn't make the deck /much/ weaker
22:19:23 <ais523> and now you can do anything, like set up a Turing machine
22:20:08 <ais523> the point is that your maindeck hardly needs changing, and it's a maindeck that can win games
22:21:30 <wob_jonas> how easy it is to make a mandatory infinite loop with a cooperating opponent where the iteration contains turn boundaries? Panoptic Mirror helps a lot, I think
22:21:52 <wob_jonas> by cooperating opponent, I mean cooperating before the start of the loop
22:21:57 <wob_jonas> so after that it still has to be mandatory
22:22:40 <wob_jonas> the opponent could play four Elixir of Immortality and 56 Plains to lock him down
22:23:55 <HackEgo> Eon Hub \ 5 \ Artifact \ Players skip their upkeep steps. \ 5DN-R
22:23:59 <ais523> `card-by-name Colfenor's Plans
22:24:02 <HackEgo> Colfenor's Plans \ 2BB \ Enchantment \ When Colfenor's Plans enters the battlefield, exile the top seven cards of your library face down. \ You may look at and play cards exiled with Colfenor's Plans. \ Skip your draw step. \ You can't cast more than one spell each turn. \ LRW-R
22:24:08 <HackEgo> Stasis \ 1U \ Enchantment \ Players skip their untap steps. \ At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice Stasis unless you pay {U}. \ A-R, B-R, U-R, RV-R, 4E-R, 5E-R, ME4-R \ \ Stasis Cell \ 4U \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant creature \ Enchanted creature doesn't untap during its controller's untap step. \ {3}{U}: Attach Stasis Cell to target crea
22:24:24 <ais523> AFAICT, that combo means that players are skipping all of untap, upkeep, and draw
22:24:39 <wob_jonas> I was wondering how you'd prevent decking
22:24:45 <ais523> so it's trivial to arrang a situation in which nobody can do anything
22:24:49 <ais523> and there's no natural way to draw out of it
22:25:04 <ais523> Colfenor's Plans could potentially be enough by itself if there's nothing else on board
22:25:28 <ais523> (although both players would need one)
22:25:29 <wob_jonas> Psychic Spiral on a Panoptic Mirror would stop you from decking, but it has an unfortunate side effect
22:25:47 <ais523> there are plenty of anti-decking cards
22:25:58 <wob_jonas> yes, but most of them aren't mandatory
22:26:06 <ais523> for example, 4 Emrakuls and 4 Ulamogs without any way to cast them
22:26:22 <ais523> if you ever get all 8 in hand, you have to discard one during cleanup and it shuffles your graveyard into your library
22:26:39 <ais523> no, the wording on that is very slightly different
22:26:42 <ais523> `card-by-name Progenitus
22:26:43 <HackEgo> Progenitus \ WWUUBBRRGG \ Legendary Creature -- Hydra Avatar \ 10/10 \ Protection from everything \ If Progenitus would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Progenitus and shuffle it into its owner's library instead. \ CON-M, MMA-M, V11-M
22:26:52 <ais523> `card-by-name Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
22:26:54 <HackEgo> Emrakul, the Aeons Torn \ 15 \ Legendary Creature -- Eldrazi \ 15/15 \ Emrakul, the Aeons Torn can't be countered. \ When you cast Emrakul, take an extra turn after this one. \ Flying, protection from colored spells, annihilator 6 \ When Emrakul is put into a graveyard from anywhere, its owner shuffles his or her graveyard into his or her library.
22:27:02 <ais523> Progenitus is in general a lot less abusable
22:27:21 <ais523> as it only affects itself, not the rest of the graveyard
22:27:30 <ais523> although I guess in this case, having one card there is enough
22:29:17 <wob_jonas> anyway, I think 15 cards would be hard because there's a lot of infrastructure you need to make many copies of multiple cards
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22:29:52 <wob_jonas> if you have generic enough anti-decking, plus Omnipotence, then maybe it's not that bad
22:32:28 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name cackling counterpart
22:32:29 <HackEgo> Cackling Counterpart \ 1UU \ Instant \ Create a token that's a copy of target creature you control. \ Flashback {5}{U}{U} (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its flashback cost. Then exile it.) \ ISD-R, C14-R, MM3-R
22:34:12 <HackEgo> Elvish Branchbender \ 2G \ Creature -- Elf Druid \ 2/2 \ {T}: Until end of turn, target Forest becomes an X/X Treefolk creature in addition to its other types, where X is the number of Elves you control. \ LRW-C
22:34:52 <wob_jonas> looking through all lorwyn block giants, treefolk, and fairies
22:35:08 <wob_jonas> because those are the minor tribes, and I know some of those cards care about one of the major tribes
22:35:16 <wob_jonas> (though I don't think it happens to fairies)
22:35:52 <HackEgo> Hearthcage Giant \ 6RR \ Creature -- Giant Warrior \ 5/5 \ When Hearthcage Giant enters the battlefield, create two 3/1 red Elemental Shaman creature tokens. \ Sacrifice an Elemental: Target Giant creature gets +3/+1 until end of turn. \ LRW-U
22:35:59 <wob_jonas> another one that's not usable because it's on an activated ability
22:37:50 <wob_jonas> What creature types does Shadowmoor and Eventide care about, besides the Lorwyn ones and Warrior?
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22:38:48 <ais523> `card-by-name soulcatchers' aerie
22:38:51 <HackEgo> Soulcatchers' Aerie \ 1W \ Enchantment \ Whenever a Bird is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, put a feather counter on Soulcatchers' Aerie. \ Bird creatures get +1/+1 for each feather counter on Soulcatchers' Aerie. \ JUD-U
22:39:02 <ais523> if only those two creature types were different, it'd be perfect
22:39:16 <ais523> err, not quite, would implement a different esolang but one that's still probably TC
22:39:19 <wob_jonas> aren't there a lot of clerics where you could say the same?
22:40:31 <wob_jonas> hmm, I should look through cards that care about clerics or soldiers. they had a lot of goodies back then. soldiers still have some, but the cleric tribal seems entirely abandonned.
22:41:55 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Battletide Alchemist
22:41:56 <ais523> a search for clerics with "whenever" in their oracle text didn't find anything useful
22:41:56 <HackEgo> Battletide Alchemist \ 3WW \ Creature -- Kithkin Cleric \ 3/4 \ If a source would deal damage to a player, you may prevent X of that damage, where X is the number of Clerics you control. \ MOR-R
22:42:13 <wob_jonas> for clerics and soldiers, I'm not expecting anything with two creature types
22:42:49 <ais523> apart from Rotlung Reanimator but we're already using that
22:43:49 <wob_jonas> you know about Daru Spiritualist, right? it's useful for infinite healing decks, although there are a lot of other cards that can replace it
22:44:18 <wob_jonas> I'm probably still going to use it if when I rebuild that deck better, because its cheap mana cost makes it attractive
22:44:28 <ais523> I saw it, not sure how it helps here
22:45:08 <wob_jonas> (plus it combos with Starlit Sanctum)
22:49:15 <wob_jonas> hmm... Panoptic Mirror isn't easy to use, because it has a "may"
22:49:53 <ais523> `card-by-name faces of the past
22:49:55 <HackEgo> Faces of the Past \ 2U \ Enchantment \ Whenever a creature dies, tap all untapped creatures that share a creature type with it or untap all tapped creatures that share a creature type with it. \ SCG-R
22:50:20 <ais523> that seems really promising as it means we can use a card's ability as one creature type, and its type line (which is very hackable) as another
22:50:36 <ais523> err, "or", how annoying
22:50:54 <ais523> the original was ambiguous and I was hoping it'd have been oracled to "and"
22:51:59 <HackEgo> Avacyn's Collar \ 1 \ Artifact -- Equipment \ Equipped creature gets +1/+0 and has vigilance. \ Whenever equipped creature dies, if it was a Human, create a 1/1 white Spirit creature token with flying. \ Equip {2} \ DKA-U
22:54:26 <HackEgo> Dread Slaver \ 3BB \ Creature -- Zombie Horror \ 3/5 \ Whenever a creature dealt damage by Dread Slaver this turn dies, return it to the battlefield under your control. That creature is a black Zombie in addition to its other colors and types. \ AVR-R
22:54:33 <HackEgo> Alpha Brawl \ 6RR \ Sorcery \ Target creature an opponent controls deals damage equal to its power to each other creature that player controls, then each of those creatures deals damage equal to its power to that creature. \ DKA-R
22:55:14 <wob_jonas> no, the latter isn't too easy, you can't force it to target the right creature more than one or two ways
22:56:34 <ais523> `card-by-name Hungry Lynx
22:56:35 <HackEgo> Hungry Lynx \ 1G \ Creature -- Cat \ 2/2 \ Cats you control have protection from Rats. (They can't be blocked, targeted, or dealt damage by Rats.) \ At the beginning of your end step, target opponent creates a 1/1 black Rat creature token with deathtouch. \ Whenever a Rat dies, put a +1/+1 counter on each Cat you control. \ C17-R
22:56:50 <ais523> first two abilities do nothing, third is exactly the effect we want
22:56:58 <wob_jonas> I wouldn't say they do nothing, but still
22:57:04 <wob_jonas> yes, the third one is exactly what we need
22:57:09 <ais523> nothing in this construction
22:57:29 <ais523> thank you Commander 17
22:57:47 <ais523> I wasn't expecting to see the exact ability I needed appearing as printed on a single card
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22:58:57 <ais523> the one remaining problem is that newly played cards will appear at the wrong toughness but that can be fixed with a huge stack of creature-type-specific anthems
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23:00:35 <ais523> so that their "natural" stats hit the toughness we need
23:01:36 <ais523> let's see, what cards do we need altogether?
23:02:04 <HackEgo> Brass Herald \ 6 \ Artifact Creature -- Golem \ 2/2 \ As Brass Herald enters the battlefield, choose a creature type. \ When Brass Herald enters the battlefield, reveal the top four cards of your library. Put all creature cards of the chosen type revealed this way into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library in any order. \ Creatures o
23:02:25 <ais523> triggers: Noxious Ghoul, Faceless Devourer, Hungry Lynx, Rotlung Reanimator
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23:02:42 <wob_jonas> if that card is in commander 17, then who's updated HackEgo's database such that it's already in it?
23:03:00 <ais523> some time in 2017 I guess
23:03:10 <ais523> core sets were numbered after the following year
23:03:14 <ais523> but commander sets are numbered after their own year, I think
23:03:35 <wob_jonas> a moment, I can look this up, there's a really good wikipedia article
23:04:50 <ais523> setup: Artifical Evolution, Cackling Counterpart, Blades of Velis Vel
23:05:14 <ais523> (the Blades make things immune to Noxious Ghoul's effect)
23:05:51 <wob_jonas> the Blade sounds like it's hard to get out from though
23:05:54 <ais523> permanent toughness set: lord of atlantis
23:06:03 <ais523> the Blades are only used on the ROM
23:06:09 <ais523> to prevent its toughness decreasing
23:06:24 <ais523> thus they never die or ETB, and we don't need to worry about their toughness randomly /increasing/
23:06:46 <wob_jonas> no no. Lord of Atlantis is now a Merfolk, ever since the Lorwyn updates
23:07:11 <ais523> wob_jonas: you Blades of Velis Vel it
23:07:34 <ais523> so it doesn't die to Noxious Ghoul
23:07:41 <ais523> and nothing else will have a negative effect on it
23:08:19 <ais523> it just sits there, being a changeling means it can't be -1/-1'd, and you don't care about how many +1/+1s it gets
23:08:29 <wob_jonas> I'm getting tired to evaluate this now, but we have logs
23:08:50 <wob_jonas> so what do you use to recycle spells?
23:09:03 <ais523> `card-by-name wheel of sun and moon
23:09:06 <HackEgo> Wheel of Sun and Moon \ (g/w)(g/w) \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant player \ If a card would be put into enchanted player's graveyard from anywhere, instead that card is revealed and put on the bottom of that player's library. \ SHM-R
23:09:16 <ais523> `card-by-name null profusion
23:09:16 <HackEgo> Null Profusion \ 4BB \ Enchantment \ Skip your draw step. \ Whenever you play a card, draw a card. \ Your maximum hand size is two. \ PLC-R
23:09:38 <ais523> I believe that combo lets you just keep casting spells forever
23:09:44 <ais523> when you have an empty library, at least
23:09:51 <wob_jonas> how is that enough? what do you do with spells you don't want?
23:09:59 <wob_jonas> or cards in your hand that you don't want
23:10:19 <ais523> well we're assuming that you have your entire deck in your hand and omniscience on the battlefield
23:10:26 <ais523> (this is the end state of the omnitell combo)
23:11:18 <wob_jonas> what do you need to fetch your whole sideboard?
23:11:33 <ais523> `card-by-name research // development
23:11:33 <HackEgo> Research // Development \ GU // 3UR \ Instant // Instant \ Choose up to four cards you own from outside the game and shuffle them into your library. // Create a 3/1 red Elemental creature token unless any opponent has you draw a card. Repeat this process two more times. \ DIS-R
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23:12:49 <ais523> AFAICT you need WoSaM in your maindeck (at least it's not a terrible card – it hoses some graveyard strategies)
23:12:53 <wob_jonas> also, um, do you know if Waterfall Model with 350 (or whatever is the current or near-future number of M:tG non-silver-border-only creature types) clocks is TC?
23:12:57 <ais523> but R//D can be in your sideboard
23:13:23 <ais523> I don't know what the minimum number of clocks needed for TCness is but it's surely got to be less than that
23:16:41 <ais523> the idea is that you start the programming (once the combo's setup) using Cunning Wish (from your maindeck) for R//D, WoSaM (from your maindeck) so that you can cast it multiple times, and cantrips from your maindeck to keep redrawing it before you have Null Profusion
23:18:19 <ais523> actually, even better: the deck naturally features two copies of Emrakul
23:18:53 <ais523> with Omniscience out, you can get the graveyard recycle by playing one when the other's on the battlefield, and tuhs legend-ruling it so it goes into the graveyard and recycles it
23:23:53 <ais523> one last thing we need to do is to produce an observable effect, i.e. making someone win when a particular creature dies
23:24:21 <ais523> and if we're setting this up in a real game we'll probably need to adjust life totals first
23:25:36 <wob_jonas> don't you also need to animate artifacts or enchantments or something so you can Cackling them?
23:25:54 <wob_jonas> or is everything you need naturally a creature or sorcery or instant?
23:26:28 <ais523> all creatures/sorceries/instants in this version, I thiink
23:31:07 <ais523> even better, they're all nonlegendary
23:33:17 <ais523> oh, we also need a Donate effect
23:33:20 <ais523> but that shouldn't be too hard
23:34:19 <ais523> Harmless Offering is the obvious choice given that we'll mostly be donating Hungry Lynxes
23:41:06 <ais523> hmm, we also need a way to get rid of our own setup ability
23:41:10 <ais523> e.g. by exiling our own hand
23:42:29 <ais523> Cranial Extraction works, actually even Surgical Extraction is probably enough
23:45:12 <wob_jonas> could you use Holistic Wisdom to get rid of cards from your hand but also pull double-duty to start the setup?
23:46:11 <ais523> also we need to get rid of any ability the opponent might have to make choices
23:46:46 <ais523> which means we want to be able to exile their hand too
23:47:08 <ais523> perhaps Slaughter Games, in that case?
23:47:19 <ais523> it can exile a nonland card from anywhere but the battlefield
23:47:23 <wob_jonas> and Cranial Extraction is great because it also lets you exile cards from a graveyard, which is actually relevant against many opponents in an eternal format
23:47:55 <ais523> Surgical Extraction /only/ lets you do that if the card's in a graveyard, but it costs 4 less
23:48:00 <ais523> and is a common hate card in eternal formats
23:49:00 <ais523> wait, Slaughter Games can't self-target
23:49:44 <ais523> Surgical it is, then, I guess
23:53:27 <wob_jonas> As a worse possibility, use any split second spell to shut down most choices, and as a response, sacrifice your Wild Cantor to start the program with a death trigger
23:53:46 <wob_jonas> in this version you can't start with a death trigger
23:54:42 <ais523> there are death triggers on the Faceless Devourers
23:54:50 <wob_jonas> nah, I'm tired and confused now, I can't think straight
23:54:59 <wob_jonas> I'll have to file all this until tomorrow
23:55:12 <ais523> the setup there is nontrivial but it might be possible?
23:55:22 <ais523> like, the "traditional" start of this is to cast the third copy
23:55:28 <ais523> but say we stifle it somehow
23:56:05 <ais523> wait, we're going to need three /physical/ Faceless Devourers for the infinite death trigger loop if we do it like this
23:56:11 <ais523> so perhaps we should create it some other way
23:56:43 <ais523> Rotlung Reanimator + a static -2/-2 effect, for example
23:56:50 <ais523> so that we have a token being created and dying infinitely
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23:58:05 <wob_jonas> but what triggers on the deaths now other than that?
23:58:12 <wob_jonas> and how do you ensure the correct order?
23:58:17 <ais523> Noxious Ghoul is watching for the token's creature type
23:58:31 <ais523> we control that as the active player
23:58:51 <ais523> then if it kills something else at the same time, that gets reanimated by a donated Rotlung Reanimator
23:58:55 <ais523> under the opponent's control
23:59:04 <ais523> due to APNAP our trigger stacks first so it resolves last
23:59:46 <wob_jonas> that sounds exactly like the black magic it is
00:00:47 <wob_jonas> this is so hard to control it's no wonder so many non-black people oppose necromancy as being against the natural order
00:01:35 <wob_jonas> I have to go to bed now, but I should get back to this with a fresher head later to try to understand what is really happening here
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00:13:31 <ais523> for the logreaders out there: Wipe Away is a standard card in Omnitell sideboards, and a) has Split Second, b) lets us get rid of everyone's lands and our own Omniscience (thus preventing us interfering with the combo)
00:13:42 <ais523> so that's another problem solved without interfering with the original deck
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00:39:29 <zzo38> Now the "mbff" program in the Farbfeld Utilities can also read classes and levels too.
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00:42:37 <zzo38> (Although it will not execute any class codes, meaning that it renders as displayed in the editor rather than at runtime, so auto-reversing Rotators won't be marked, Continuous Walls will not be continuous, etc)
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01:36:08 <oerjan> HackEgo is a bit slow.
01:36:38 <oerjan> might end up timing out :(
01:36:39 <HackEgo> bin/wälcåmä:exec welcome "$@" | bin/en2sv
01:36:55 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/en2sv: No such file or directory
01:37:46 <oerjan> makes no sense to delete one but not the other.
01:43:13 <moony> HackEgo, the slowest bot in mexico
01:45:28 <oerjan> well that _is_ official.
01:45:33 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in all Mexico!
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02:29:34 <oerjan> . o O ( ITC MtG discussions can be on topic... )
02:34:38 <oerjan> `mkx bin/,2//nur "$@" |& sport 2
02:35:05 <oerjan> `card-by-name Brass Herald
02:35:06 <HackEgo> Brass Herald \ 6 \ Artifact Creature -- Golem \ 2/2 \ As Brass Herald enters the battlefield, choose a creature type. \ When Brass Herald enters the battlefield, reveal the top four cards of your library. Put all creature cards of the chosen type revealed this way into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library in any order. \ Creatures o
02:35:15 <oerjan> `,2 card-by-name Brass Herald
02:35:17 <HackEgo> 2/2:es of the chosen type get +1/+1. \ AP-U, 8ED-R \
02:36:04 <HackEgo> `2 <cmd> is equivalent to `1 <cmd>, except that it starts displaying the _second_ output piece. Useful when you've already run a command forgetting to use `1.
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05:55:36 <zzo38> Did you see this? https://www.mail-archive.com/sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org/msg108914.html
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08:08:47 <\oren\_> i wonder how the norms for the coin-bill transition get decided
08:08:52 <\oren\_> and yen has the highest coin at 500 which is 6 canadian dollars
08:08:57 <\oren\_> meanwhile china has the biggest coin as 1 yuan or 20 cents
08:09:39 <\oren\_> and canada is in the middle with biggest coin at 2 dollars
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08:53:03 <esowiki> [[Countdown]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54267&oldid=53151 * Singingbanana * (+22)
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09:48:54 <esowiki> [[Wierd Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54268&oldid=54266 * Singingbanana * (+904)
09:49:29 <esowiki> [[Wierd Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54269&oldid=54268 * Singingbanana * (+13)
09:50:57 <esowiki> [[Wierd Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54270&oldid=54269 * Singingbanana * (+0)
09:56:11 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54271&oldid=53221 * Singingbanana * (+49)
09:57:45 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54272&oldid=54271 * Singingbanana * (+3)
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10:02:31 <wob_jonas> ais523: on the esowiki, what's the policy for writing about obfuscation (or golfing) techniques and notable obfuscated programs in a non-esoteric language, like perl or C or haskell?
10:02:55 <wob_jonas> I'm asking because there are now four or five attempts to prove M:tG turing complete, and we have to collect at least the links somewhere.
10:03:22 <ais523> I don't think we have one yet
10:03:30 <ais523> it may just be worth making a page about M:tG
10:03:40 <ais523> it's not intended as a language, but when seen as a language it's definitely esoteric
10:05:28 <ais523> we can definitely store notable programs on the wiki (assuming appropriate licensing), although the Esoteric Files Archive is meant to be a better place for that
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10:07:49 <zzo38> Yes, you can try to write about Turing-completeness and other stuff like that about Magic: the Gathering.
10:08:27 <ais523> I think the correct approach is something like this
10:08:51 <ais523> a) move the StackFlow implementation to the talk page or page history, as it's not actually correct within the rules of the game (it requires players to consistently stack triggers in a particular order)
10:09:06 <ais523> b) create a page that treats M:tG as an esolang, and focuses on its programming aspects
10:09:53 <zzo38> I think the StackFlow implementation could be moved to a subpage, and put the complaints about it also on that subpage and/or the talk page of that subpage.
10:10:06 <ais523> c) produce a concrete TWM program that can emulate any given Turing Machine by changing one of the inputs (i.e. proof of compilability)
10:10:40 <ais523> d) produce an article, hosted on an external website, that goes through the entire construction (I could use mine for this, but it might be fun to get it onto a better-known M:tG website)
10:12:59 <ais523> bonus points for actually doing this in a serious tournament and proving the whole thing to be broken
10:13:24 <zzo38> I doubt WotC cares to put it on their own website, but you can try, I suppose.
10:13:36 <ais523> I meant a third-party M:tG articles websitee
10:13:43 <ais523> I'm sure there are some that accept submissions
10:16:18 <ais523> anyway, I think I figured out the kill; assuming we're using Wild Cantor to get split-second protection for the whole thing, we can also use it to generate infinte mana by looping it, which lets us activate abilities
10:16:33 <ais523> so we can put a "you lose the game" ability (e.g. Door to Nothingness) on the stack /underneath/ the entire combo
10:17:40 <ais523> then we have to arrange for the loop to break when the halt state is reached, we do that by making the Rotlung Reanimator that handles the steady decrease insufficiently protected, so it acts like a waterclock rather than ROM
10:19:04 <ais523> once it hits zero the whole thing unravels, and if the opponent doesn't have a stifle effect they just lose (note that we can ensure they have no mana and no mana-generating permanents, so they'd need to do something like two spirit guides → manamorphose → stifle)
10:19:48 <ais523> this also lets me make the article better as I can add in a reference to There's the Door, a deck which is based around giving the opponent Door to Nothingness and repeating the same gamestate until they use it on themself
10:20:13 <ais523> in this case, we only give them the chance to Door themselves once, if they refuse we go into the main combo (and because they've refused to Door themselves they're hopefully less likely to concede?)
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10:21:48 <wob_jonas> ais523: I would also like to link to the two or three previous proofs, the ones that assume players making certain simple decisions all the time
10:22:04 <wob_jonas> those are important for history even if you make a better proof
10:23:21 <zzo38> Yes, add those in a section for links to previous proofs
10:23:49 <ais523> wob_jonas: they're all in the same place on Alex Churchill's website, so you'd just link that
10:24:06 <ais523> you'd link it anyway as he came up with many of the techniques used
10:24:39 <wob_jonas> ais523: (on the kill) what the heck? why'd you need that? can't you just have a Platinum Angel or Abyssal Gatekeeper in play, make sure one of the creature-type specific toughness effects affect it as if it was one of the counters, and reduce everyone's life to zero in advance?
10:25:02 <ais523> wob_jonas: the Door to Nothingness kill uses only one card above what we have already
10:25:21 <ais523> I thought of the Platinum Angel kill but it needs two extra cards, the Angel itself and whatever you're using to reduce life totals
10:25:52 <ais523> unless you're reducing life totals by attacking; you can get infinite extra turns with Emrakul but I don't see how you prevent the opponent simply blocking with the Angel
10:26:07 <zzo38> There is other stuff about Magic: the Gathering on esolang wiki, such as [[Magic The Gathering card deck of programming language]], [[StackFlow]], and [[Talk:Undefined behavior]].
10:26:25 <ais523> zzo38: I think we'd move the StackFlow stuff
10:26:36 <ais523> I'd rather leave the "card deck of programming language" alone because it's technically a different language
10:26:42 <ais523> maybe put it in a see also
10:27:25 <ais523> the Talk:UB thing is a reference, not actually immediately related
10:28:17 <zzo38> Yes, leave those things alone because it is different, yes (and maybe put it in a see also). StackFlow stuff can be moved. And yes I know the Talk:UB thing is not actually related. I am only mentioning where Magic: the Gathering is mentioned on the wiki; making the new article about Magic: the Gathering is of course different to these things.
10:29:01 <zzo38> (The stuff on [[Talk:Undefined behavior]] under "Magic: the Gathering" is just a joke anyways, not a real thing.)
10:31:10 <ais523> b_jonas: by the way, did we ever figure out if M:tG was /only/ TC or whether it could be computable?
10:31:38 <ais523> the aim would be to use a subgame card to differentiate a draw from a loss without ending the game, thus solving the halting problem
10:31:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: for the end condition, do you want the program to be able to cause a win or a lose, or are you satisfied with a construction that offers an infinity draw vs a win, or one that offers an infinity draw vs a lose?
10:32:04 <ais523> wob_jonas: I'm personally OK with draw vs. win because that has an observable effect on tournament results
10:32:15 <ais523> although win vs. loss would work even better as that means the program always halts
10:32:34 <zzo38> It depend if you want to be Vintage or "pseudo-Vintage" or something more.
10:32:42 <ais523> unfortunately, Shahrazad was banned in Legacy and I'm not aware of any other cards that are capable of observing infinite-loop draws
10:32:46 <wob_jonas> ais523: it's definitely uncomputable, but only because of the infinite loops rule, and even then only if someone managed to formalize that rule precisely enough to know what it says for all situations, and I don't think anyone wants to do that. if you don't have the infinite loop rule, then M:tG with just the comprehensive rules and no tournament r
10:32:46 <wob_jonas> ules or silver border is computable.
10:33:04 <ais523> wob_jonas: right, the whole point of this is to prove that the infinite loops rule is broken
10:33:38 <ais523> do it in a tournament and suddenly the judges need to solve the Goldbach Conjecture in order to work out what the result of the tournament is
10:34:03 <ais523> ah right, IIRC we decided it's obviously noncomputable, given a working definition
10:34:17 <ais523> the hard part is to determine whether it's /paradoxical/, i.e. if we can set up a game where a player wins if and only if they don't win
10:34:21 <ais523> but I believe the answer to that was no
10:34:46 <zzo38> Not just Legacy; Shahrazad is banned in Vintage, which is what is important.
10:35:52 <zzo38> If such a thing with Goldbach Conjecture occurs, and then, the player says, I have a proof of Goldbach Conjecture in my pocket I will show you...
10:36:29 <wob_jonas> I think if you just want draw vs win or draw vs lose, then once you figure out the exact construction, it will become trivial enough to modify it with at most one extra card (say Impetous Sunchaser) that the opponent must kill you in his turn without a choice. This relies on the exit from the main loop being clean and finite though, so I could be w
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10:37:22 <ais523> wob_jonas: well if the main loop exits, one player dies, that's trivial to do
10:37:34 <ais523> if the main loop /doesn't/ exit, then it's a draw by definition
10:37:39 <wob_jonas> wait, why is Vintage important, as opposed to legacy?
10:37:47 <ais523> vintage is the most permissive format
10:37:55 <ais523> so if a card's banned in vintage it's banned everywhere
10:38:08 <ais523> I was planning to aim the combo at Legacy, though, because that's the format that Omnitell is designed to do well in
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10:39:23 <wob_jonas> exactly. for Vintage, you need to buy two dozen very expensive card to even stand a chance against serious opponents, and we don't want that in an elegant construction like what this should be unless it's absolutely necessary
10:41:34 <wob_jonas> I don't think Vintage will matter, unless you find that there's some card valid in Vintage but banned in Legacy and Two-headed Giant that really really helps make the setup work
10:45:41 <ais523> here's an example of an Omnitell deck that already has several cards we need maindeck, and the ability to get the entire combo out of the sideboard without changing any maindeck cards: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=113604
10:47:51 <ais523> (I picked a recent-ish version in the hope that the deck is still competitively viable)
10:51:09 <alercah> ais523: what's the goal here?
10:51:43 <ais523> alercah: the original goal is to create a Magic: the Gathering gamestate for which an arbitrary computation is required to determine the result of the game
10:52:05 <ais523> i.e. as soon as the gamestate is set up, it's clear that the game is over either as an infinite loop or via the game-over state-based effect
10:52:32 <ais523> the slightly enhanced version of this is to do it in a deck that's competitive enough to win a game in a tournament, opposite a noncooperative opponent (assuming they don't just succeed)
10:52:32 <wob_jonas> as for obfuscations in other notable programs, so far I've mostly just made writeups for some of them that interpret or compile some esoteric language
10:52:46 <ais523> obviously it doesn't have to be reliable at this, just able to do it once
10:52:47 <alercah> oh man, toby would have a field day
10:52:50 <wob_jonas> and there's of course a lot of such programs
10:53:25 <ais523> the current plan is to fit the whole thing into the sideboard of Omni-Tell (a Legacy deck that isn't doing so great at the moment but definitely used to be competitively viable, it's probably Tier 2/3 atm which is enough to win a game or two in a tournament)
10:53:36 <alercah> I suspect in practice the game would be declared a draw
10:54:35 <ais523> we also want to write an entertaining article about it so that people will read it
10:55:09 <ais523> unfortunately, AFAICT the tournament rules require you to memorise the program you're implementing, so we'll need that to be something that a human can reasonably memorise, too
10:55:14 <wob_jonas> alercah: no, in practice you'd be disqualified and banned from magic forever and forcibly ejected from the building for even attempting to pull it off, all of which is supported by the tournament rules.
10:55:29 <ais523> wob_jonas: which rule's being broken? slow play?
10:55:58 <ais523> I don't think it is, the slow play rule says you can't continue a loop without being able to state the expecting resulted gamestate
10:56:04 <wob_jonas> I dunno, I'm not up to my knowledge
10:56:06 <ais523> in this case, we /do/ know the expected gamestate just before the loop ensd
10:56:20 <zzo38> Disqualified makes sense I suppose, but that does not mean to be banned forever, and even if so, you should not be forcibly ejected from the building.
10:56:35 <wob_jonas> yes, you'd probably only be ejected from the tournament site, not the whole building
10:56:39 <ais523> then there's no rule against performing a small finite number of actions (activating Door to Nothingness, casting Wipe Away targeting Door to Nothingness, sacrificing Wild Cantor)
10:57:05 <ais523> and at this point neither player has any control over where the game goes from there because there's a split second spell on the stack and a self-sustaining cycle of mandatory triggered abilities
10:57:14 <ais523> so you call a judge and explain the situation
10:57:23 <alercah> if the outcome were resonably determinable and you could give an ELI5 explanation of why it works, then you'd probably get the win
10:57:27 <alercah> otherwise I'd rule it a draw
10:57:47 <ais523> incidentally, once you've demonstrated the loop once you can just shortcut to the eventual resulting gamestate, which is very helpful
10:57:56 <alercah> you'd especially get a draw if your computation was something to which you didn't know the actual answer
10:58:02 <wob_jonas> ais523: slow play is applicable, because donating a thousand lynxes isn't a "small number of finite actions", especially since you could have won already, but I think there might be other tournament rules violations
10:58:19 <ais523> wob_jonas: that can legally be shortcut
10:58:26 <ais523> it's against the rules to donate them one at a time, but once you've demonstrated one iteration of a loop
10:58:30 <alercah> if you know the exact end state, yes
10:58:35 <ais523> it's perfectly legal to say "I do that 999 more times"
10:58:39 <ais523> and yes, we know the exact endstate here
10:58:52 <ais523> it's a fairly /complex/ exact endstate but it's precise and doesn't involve any randomness or decisions
10:59:00 <wob_jonas> ok wait, let me actually look up the rules
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10:59:12 <wob_jonas> https://wpn.wizards.com/en/resources/rules-documents
10:59:28 <ais523> err, decisions by the opponetn
11:00:20 <ais523> and you prevent the combo triggering while you're trying to set it up by creating all the tokens first with their original creature types, and then looping Artificial Evolution (thus creating the connections between them) as the last thing you do
11:00:41 <zzo38> I think the time needed to make the proof should also counts against slow play if necessary; if you have proven you won in time, you do, otherwise you are disqualified. But you should not be ejected from the tournament site if spectators are allowed, since this isn't the kind of disturbing thing that you can affect if you aren't part of the game.
11:01:02 <ais523> well, if you can't prove you've won, it's just a draw
11:01:09 <ais523> the issue is that we're creating a loop and nobody knows whether it's infinite or not
11:01:19 <ais523> infinite loop = draw, finite = win
11:01:41 <wob_jonas> a relevant rule is in 5.2 saying "The result of a match or game may not be randomly or arbitrarily determined through any means other than the normal progress of the game in play. Examples include (but are not limited to) rolling a die, flipping a coin, arm wrestling, or playing any other game."
11:02:11 <ais523> wob_jonas: huh, so if the judges decide to just call the game a draw as they can't figure out what happens
11:02:16 <ais523> does that mean that the /judges/ are violating rule 5.2?
11:02:27 <ais523> (note that we aren't, everything that happens is entirely based on "normal" gameplay)
11:02:38 <zzo38> Some card effects might cause the game result to be determined by a coin toss.
11:02:54 <ais523> yes, it's perfectly legal to arrange a gamestate in which a coin toss determines the result of the game as a consequence of the game's normal play
11:02:58 <ais523> `card-by-name mana clash
11:02:59 <HackEgo> Mana Clash \ R \ Sorcery \ You and target opponent each flip a coin. Mana Clash deals 1 damage to each player whose coin comes up tails. Repeat this process until both players' coins come up heads on the same flip. \ DK-R, 4E-R, 5E-R, 7E-R, 8ED-R, 9ED-R
11:03:08 <ais523> otherwise that card wouldn't be legal at all
11:03:26 <ais523> just not to say "let's toss a coin, loser of the flip concedes" or the like
11:03:26 <zzo38> So too can combinations of card effects cause the game result to depend on the Goldbach Conjecture, or whatever.
11:05:56 <wob_jonas> ais523: the judges aren't going to decide that in this case. you're intentionally throwing away the match you could win and deliberately making yourself win or draw depending on some condition irrelevant to M:tG. it doesn't matter that other players in the tournament didn't pay you shiny dollars for it.
11:06:59 <wob_jonas> just because it's a legal game state isn't enough. throwing away your win by just not playing your spells and letting the opponent finish you off with a weak deck if also illegal.
11:08:40 <alercah> ais523: if you're creating a loop and you don't know the outcome, you can't shortcut it though
11:09:08 <alercah> e.g. if you were to use a search for a counterexample to, say, P = NP
11:10:45 <wob_jonas> Slow play will almost certainly also apply, because unless you use an accomplice as an opponent or judge, which is against tournament rules for other reasons, you'll have to do an hour long CS course to explain why your construction does exactly what you want, and not just the Magic interactions parts, but also how you emulate say a multiple-stack
11:10:45 <wob_jonas> machine with a Minsky machine with an Amneisac machine with a Waterfall machine with M:tG.
11:11:43 <wob_jonas> And by the way, you'd have to do the whole thing alone and without notes you've taken prior to the match.
11:12:13 <wob_jonas> By alone, I mean there'd be at most you, the opponent, and two judges to help you.
11:13:08 <wob_jonas> Or maybe a teammate each too if you manage to find a constructed two-headed giant tournament with a wide enough format to pull of the combo.
11:14:44 <zzo38> Yes, or other team formats (I don't know if there are official tournaments with other team formats though)
11:15:57 <zzo38> But, yes, that is why I say, you will be disqualified for slow play unless you have proven it soon enough by yourself during the tournament.
11:16:29 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I'm not sure, but I think legacy two-headed giant is technically DCI-supported, but only in the sense that Mirage block constructed is also DCI-supported, which means someone could hold a tournament in it and the results could be registered to DCI, but it's unlikely that anyone will every actually do it
11:17:12 <wob_jonas> zzo38: we might have to ask some M:tG judges for this, but I think even without the slow play, this would go against that bribery rule
11:17:13 <ais523> wob_jonas: as soon as the combo is set up, the game is legally over
11:17:16 <ais523> you can't slow play at that point
11:17:20 <ais523> (also, alercah /is/ an M:tG judge)
11:17:42 <wob_jonas> alercah is an M:tG judge? I didn't know that. is he active or recently been active?
11:18:19 <alercah> haven't been active for a year and a half
11:18:30 <wob_jonas> that's still recent as far as we're concerned I think
11:18:49 <wob_jonas> that the lynx is new is irrelevant
11:19:05 <zzo38> It does not seem to me that bribery rule will have to do with it, or maybe it can if opponent concedes due to your proof instead of the judge saying you have already won and they don't have to concede, but I don't know.
11:19:07 <alercah> ais523: I think the precedent would line up with what wob_jonas is saying: there is a point of mathematical complexity beyond which the play isn't permitted
11:19:29 <alercah> the precedent being infinite scry 2
11:19:29 <ais523> alercah: even though it entirely takes place with legal game actions?
11:19:45 <ais523> up until the point you sacrifice Wild Cantor, there is nothing hard to understand about the gamestate
11:20:15 <alercah> ais523: yes; there is a ruling disallowing using infinite scry 2 to arbitrarily reorder your library IIRC
11:20:17 <ais523> you're just creating a large number of tokens with specific characteristics, but that doesn't /do/ anything, you can just count the number of each type of token
11:20:26 <ais523> alercah: that involves hidden information though
11:20:30 <wob_jonas> ais523: you mean apart from the donated lynxes artificially evolved to probably at least dozens of different texts?
11:20:41 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure how much you can golf this really
11:20:45 <ais523> wob_jonas: yes, you're donating a lot of token lynxes and editing the creature types in them
11:21:00 <ais523> I don't see any problem with that, it's not conceptually different from creating 109280319840235 tokens
11:21:15 <alercah> ais523: it still allows you to set up a loop, define a number of iterations, and set a specific output state
11:21:18 <ais523> i.e. the precise number may have to be recorded, and that's a pain in case it's relevant, but it's not fundamentally different from picking any other definite number
11:21:21 <wob_jonas> I think you'll need either hundreds of *different* lynxes (ones with differently edited text) or an exponentially large power
11:21:24 <alercah> (namely, my library is in a specific order)
11:21:41 <alercah> the ruling was based more on "magic is not a game of mathematics" than the presence of hidden information
11:21:43 <ais523> alercah: the challenge there is the defined number of iterations
11:21:44 <wob_jonas> it's not the number of lynxes that's the problem, but that there's so many different ones, each of which have to be tracked separately
11:22:09 <ais523> wob_jonas: well you have two loops
11:22:24 <ais523> the first donates the opponent an arbitrarily large number of identical lynx tokens
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11:22:49 <ais523> I don't think anyone would have a problem with that; it's a bit of a bizarre thing to do but it's not fundamentally different from any other combo
11:23:15 <ais523> the second loop casts Artificial Evolution twice at each of the tokens, which is clearly a defined operation; the only tricky part is that you don't always choose the same creature types
11:23:52 <ais523> IMO if you choose the same creature types every time that's clearly legal
11:23:56 <alercah> ah wait, the example I was thinking of was four horsemen, which has an indeterminate loop
11:24:04 <zzo38> Why should there be a ruling disallowing using infinite scry 2 to arbitrarily reorder your library? The only thing then to consider is slow play if it is take too long to reorder your library, which, if there are enough cards, it might do, otherwise it won't.
11:24:13 <ais523> alercah: yes, four horsemen is illegal as it has no bounded number of iterations
11:24:33 <ais523> I believe the infinite scry 2 is legal so long as you have memorised the order of your library and thus can give an exact iteration count for bubble-sorting it
11:24:43 <ais523> (this is why nobody does it in practice)
11:24:55 <ais523> infinite scry 2 = bubble sort, four horsemen = bogosort
11:25:13 <wob_jonas> zzo38: and slow play is already relevant: even without reordering the library, it's forbidden to take a note of all cards in the opponent's deck as you Cranial Extraction them for slow play, and reordering your library is on the sam eorder of magnitude
11:25:13 <ais523> one of these has a finite worst-case performance, the other an infinite worst-case performance
11:25:36 <alercah> ais523: I think if you pushed me on it
11:26:09 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Yes; unless the number of cards is low, it should count only slow play, is what I am saying. Rather than, just making the rules arbitrarily
11:26:10 <alercah> my ruling would be that "without being able to provide an exact number of iterations and the expected resulting game state" requires that you be able to provide those things in a reasonable time frame
11:26:19 <ais523> alercah: yes, I think that's valid
11:26:32 <ais523> so you the program needs to be golfed to the extent that we can explain what it is quickly
11:27:02 <alercah> if you're trying to explain how you have encoded a brainfuck interpreter in a minsky machine to the 10-year old across from you, it isn't going to go well
11:27:09 <ais523> exact iterations is easy; we can do too many without breaking the construction, so "3 trillion" is a simple valid number
11:27:13 <ais523> expected resulting gamestate is much harder
11:27:19 <wob_jonas> alercah: wait, isn't 11 years old the minimum age?
11:27:26 <ais523> as that gamestate encodes the program and so we need to golf the program to make it as simple as possible
11:27:36 <alercah> wob_jonas: there is no minimum AFAIK
11:27:37 <ais523> wob_jonas: there's a 7 year old who made the news for doing fairly well in an official tournament
11:27:52 <alercah> under 13 you need parental permission for privacy law reasons IIRC but otherwise no rules
11:28:05 <wob_jonas> I mean, I've seen very young people play casual magic, but this is for tournaments
11:28:14 <ais523> right, that's why it was newsworthy
11:29:00 <alercah> https://compete.kotaku.com/7-year-old-magic-prodigy-cant-shuffle-cards-yet-but-can-1820619884
11:29:10 <esowiki> [[StackFlow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54273&oldid=52350 * FireFly * (+2) /* Syntax */ line -> length (typo)
11:30:01 <zzo38> I thought it is mandatory to shuffle the cards by yourself?
11:30:14 <ais523> you can have someone to help you if you're disabled
11:30:26 <ais523> being too young to be able to hold the deck is probably a comparable case
11:30:51 <ais523> at a local Magic club, I used to help a blind person sometimes, telling them about what the content of their own hand was (as they couldn't see it)
11:31:37 <ais523> (I also played against them sometimes, announcing everything I was doing in detail because again, they couldn't see it)
11:32:23 <wob_jonas> I think most young tournament magic players can usually shuffle decks though
11:32:26 <alercah> yeah, the "shuffle yourself" rule is to prevent 1500-card decks that can't reasonably be shuffled by one person, not to stop people who are physically unable
11:32:37 <alercah> and to preclude the use of e.g. card shuffling machines
11:32:47 <ais523> right, it's a maximum deck size limit
11:33:00 <alercah> mainly thanks to Battle of Wits
11:33:01 <ais523> there's some debate about whether Battle of Wits decks are tournament-legal, because of this
11:33:18 <wob_jonas> it rarely comes up in practice, because most decks don't want to be larger than a Battle of Wits deck, and even Battle of Wits is usually only 240 cards or something
11:33:38 <ais523> incidentally, Battle of Wits is the most expensive Modern deck, because it turns out the optimal build is to fill the deck full of Modern staples with only a few tutors
11:33:39 <wob_jonas> you can shuffle 240 cards if you practice, and you can clearly practice in advance
11:34:46 <alercah> I just imagined a player after game 1 of a limited tournament realizing that they are basically hopeless against their opponent's deck
11:34:57 <alercah> so they side in 200 land and desperately hope they can draw their BoW
11:35:20 <wob_jonas> I've heared of one serious deck that's even bigger, using a large number of either Relentless Rats or Shadowborn Apostole (I forgot which)
11:35:45 <ais523> alercah: that's done with other cards in limited sometimes
11:35:50 <ais523> normally Lost in the Woods or Pack Rat
11:36:24 <ais523> (the Pack Rat deck is better, because as long as it finds the Rat, it can typically beat anything but a board sweeper, and those are rare in limited)
11:36:34 <alercah> yeah, I've seen that in action
11:37:00 <alercah> but pack rat is also very strong on its own
11:37:14 <alercah> it barely needs the 39-swamp deck to be obscenely strong
11:37:30 <zzo38> You might not practice in advance if you are playing Limited, but in such a case most of the cards will probably be conventional basic lands anyways, if you try to make large decks.
11:37:33 <ais523> it's so strong that casting it effectively wins the game, so you run 39 swamps alongside it to make sure you aren't mana screwed
11:37:35 <alercah> the only advantage it gains from the all-land deck is consistently hitting its drops
11:41:46 <ais523> it's particularly important to run a lot of lands because you're usually mulliganning until it's in your starting hand
11:41:52 <ais523> so you won't have as many lands drawn naturally as normal
11:42:23 <zzo38> Yawgatog still hasn't added a list of the differences of the rules between the previous and current version (even though they have done for older versions)
11:48:42 <wob_jonas> The strange thing is that an esolang like countercall might be relevant for a reduction to M:tG, because it naturally has a call stack, and you could have trigger an ability triggered as many times as some counter represented as the number of certain objects
11:49:25 <wob_jonas> probably not countercall exactly, but some language with a similar gimmick
11:49:26 <ais523> well countercall is sub-TC
11:49:45 <ais523> but yes, counter + call stack doesn't seem impossible
11:50:32 <alercah> ais523: let me know if you actually figure it out btw, I have some friends who would enjoy hearing about it
11:51:03 <ais523> alercah: well we already have a working construction for the The Waterfall Model → M:tG side of things
11:51:11 <ais523> it's just that TWM, while TC, is really hard to golf
11:51:23 <wob_jonas> alercah: I think ais523 more or less has the construction in his head now. but I'm really behind and will slowly try to understand it. first the part where M:tG is irrelevant, like how a reduction to Waterfall even works and how much it would blow up
11:51:35 <ais523> yes, I need to write it down
11:51:57 <ais523> the Waterfall side of things seems to be the fragile side
11:52:00 <wob_jonas> ais523: do you want to reduce something like the Amnesiac to Waterfall?
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11:52:31 <ais523> [11:51] <ais523> yes, I need to write it down
11:52:32 <ais523> [11:51] <ais523> the Waterfall side of things seems to be the fragile side
11:52:34 <ais523> [11:52] <ais523> all the constructions I'm aware of scale from Minsky machines in a states + counters way
11:52:43 <ais523> I don't know what the minimum number of states + counters is for a universal Minsky machine program
11:52:58 <wob_jonas> we don't know small universal Minsky machines
11:53:17 <ais523> the Fractran self-interpreter is fairly small
11:54:00 <ais523> I wonder what I was thinking of
11:54:54 <wob_jonas> at least you can use state transitions that add or subtract any integer
11:55:00 <wob_jonas> you don't have to use 100 states to add 100
11:55:08 <ais523> ah right, there's a smaller one: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1749905/code-golf-fractran/1802570#1802570
11:56:39 <wob_jonas> M:tG has 237 creature types right now
11:57:57 <ais523> we can't quite use all of them
11:58:17 <ais523> Cat, Rat, Eldrazi, Cleric, Zombie would have side effects halfway through the setup
11:58:25 <ais523> err, maybe not Rat actually
11:58:34 <ais523> but that still gives a lot of space
11:59:49 <wob_jonas> Nightmare and Horror might also have some effects
12:00:04 <ais523> no, we removed Faceless Devourer from the construction
12:00:11 <ais523> because we could get the same effect using cards that we already had
12:00:22 <ais523> err, almost, we need a static -2/-2 from somewhere
12:00:36 <ais523> `card-by-name Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
12:00:41 <HackEgo> Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite \ 5WW \ Legendary Creature -- Praetor \ 4/7 \ Vigilance \ Other creatures you control get +2/+2. \ Creatures your opponents control get -2/-2. \ NPH-M, MM2-M
12:01:54 <ais523> come to think of it, Elesh herself could be the halt state, given that the oppoenet would control it
12:01:57 <ais523> that makes things even simpler
12:02:12 <ais523> because once she dies the "base" triggered ability (the one that triggers itself) will stop working
12:02:23 <ais523> and Praetor is a unique creature type we aren't using anywhere else
12:03:36 <ais523> hmm, at present this implements a TWM variant in which all waterclocks set themselves to 4 when exhausted (rather than an arbitrary number)
12:03:43 <ais523> I don't think that changes the TCness of the language though
12:04:09 <wob_jonas> there's also Night of Souls' Betrayal
12:04:18 <ais523> Elesh solves three problems at once though
12:04:27 <ais523> because we /also/ needed a static +/+ effect on the opponent's creatures
12:04:32 <ais523> and we also needed a way to halt
12:04:44 <ais523> (in addition to the static -/- that keeps the loop going)
12:04:53 <wob_jonas> for some reason Harmless Offering can donate enchantments. I really don't understand why Wizards chose to allow that in such a cheap sorcery, sounds like it will be broken.
12:05:04 <ais523> wob_jonas: it was intended as a build-around
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12:05:17 <ais523> and they wanted to make it wide so that as many decks as possible that needed an effect like that would have one
12:05:21 <wob_jonas> there's also, um, what's that iconic black hero called
12:06:11 <HackEgo> Ascendant Evincar \ 4BB \ Legendary Creature -- Vampire \ 3/3 \ Flying (This creature can't be blocked except by creatures with flying or reach.) \ Other black creatures get +1/+1. \ Nonblack creatures get -1/-1. \ NE-R, 10E-R, HOP-R
12:07:12 <ais523> right, -1/-1 on a legendary needs two of them to get -2/-2
12:07:32 <ais523> so the idea is that we use a zombie token for almost every piece of RAM
12:07:39 <ais523> but Elesh Norn for the remaining counter
12:07:52 <ais523> if she ever ends up dying, the whole combo breaks and the stack unwinds to the point at which we cast Wipe Away
12:08:01 <ais523> and we have a Door to Nothingness activation on the stack just below that
12:08:27 <ais523> or, I guess if we wanted to save a card, an attacking Emrakul (we could stifle the annihilator trigger)
12:09:11 <wob_jonas> yes, but just one zombie token for each counter, right? unlike the Alex Churchill construction, which uses a ramp of creatures of increasing toughness, as many total as the counter
12:09:47 <ais523> occasionally the tokens die and just get replaced with a new token
12:09:51 <wob_jonas> How does stifling save a card? you don't need a stifle effect otherwise, do you? or do you use one to start the loop?
12:10:01 <ais523> the deck naturally contains a copy of Trickbind
12:10:31 <ais523> `card-by-name Trickbind
12:10:33 <HackEgo> Trickbind \ 1U \ Instant \ Split second (As long as this spell is on the stack, players can't cast spells or activate abilities that aren't mana abilities.) \ Counter target activated or triggered ability. If a permanent's ability is countered this way, activated abilities of that permanent can't be activated this turn. (Mana abilities can't be tar
12:11:16 <ais523> that's helpful because post-combo, Trickbind + 4 copies of Force of Will mean that the opponent is unlikely to be able to interfere
12:12:22 <wob_jonas> if you want attacking, you have to pull the combo off before your combat. that's not an obstacle for this deck, right?
12:12:52 <ais523> nah, in fact the setup even benefits from passing the turn on occasion
12:13:15 <ais523> given that the opponent will have no permanents and we'll have an extra turn right after, I don't see much of a problem from that
12:13:31 <ais523> the whole thing happens at mana ability speed in the middle of combat
12:13:40 <ais523> wob_jonas: nothing /to/ untap
12:13:52 <ais523> and no, you don't untap if you don't get a turn
12:13:55 <ais523> untap phase is part of your turn
12:13:58 <wob_jonas> oh, you kill all his permanents too? what with?
12:14:05 <ais523> not kill, we bounce them with Wipe Away
12:15:01 <wob_jonas> that sounds a bit dangerous because it could trigger some leaves tb abilities, but I guess that can't be helped
12:15:19 <ais523> well, we can get Trickbind before doing that
12:15:46 <ais523> but yes, there's always a danger period immediately after we're in the start state (our entire deck in our hand, Omniscience or Dream Halls in play)
12:15:52 <wob_jonas> and it's definitely safer than leaving arbitrary permanents in play. the alternative is exiling all permanents
12:15:54 <ais523> but before we've fully neutralised the opponent
12:16:11 <wob_jonas> oh right, you exile them from his hand later
12:16:28 <ais523> not in the current version, Extraction turned out to be unneeded
12:16:34 <ais523> we just let them exist in hand and counter anything they try to play
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12:16:55 <ais523> there's not much that can be played with no mana and no permanents, after all
12:17:14 <ais523> and we have four hard counters in hand
12:17:29 <ais523> it's not 100% secure, but it becomes more so over time
12:19:20 <ais523> (you need to pass the turn to remove the summoning sickness from the copy of Emrakul that stays on the battlefield to legend-rule the one we play as part of the loop)
12:20:24 <wob_jonas> but doesn't being able to pass the turn cost one or more cards? if you just need haste, you can give it with one card, especially since you already have Evolution
12:21:20 <ais523> Emrakul gives you an extra turn when you hardcast it
12:21:33 <ais523> so passing the turn hardly does anything
12:22:13 <wob_jonas> though it ends some effects, probably none of them are crucial
12:22:25 <ais523> I don't think we're using any of them during the setup phase
12:22:42 <wob_jonas> you're not trying to keep anything alive with a growth despite the continuous -2/-2, right?
12:23:33 <ais523> there are some things we have to keep alive but we can use Hungry Lynx to put +1/+1 counters on them
12:23:37 <ais523> during the setup, that is
12:23:45 <ais523> so it's another use of using the same card for two purposes
12:25:31 <wob_jonas> and all that is after you set up the infinite card recycling combo, right?
12:25:57 <ais523> the infinite combo exists "naturally" in Omnitell
12:26:01 <ais523> I'm not sure if most people noticed, though
12:26:10 <ais523> because they don't expect a Regrowth effect to cost 27 mana
12:26:30 <ais523> (with Omniscience out, though, the cost gets reduced to 0 so we can do it easily)
12:26:47 <ais523> in general the deck doesn't /need/ a 27 mana regrowth so people weren't looking for one
12:33:55 <wob_jonas> the difficulty is not just the 27 mana, but coming out positively in card balance in them. and I'm not quite sure green would consider that natural, because green has Recollect/Reclaim effects which get one card back and cost one card, plus Repopulate which is an instant that returns creatures only.
12:34:47 <wob_jonas> it's one thing to live longer by swapping some Conjurer's Baubles, but much more difficult to make it infinite and returning arbitrary sorceries
12:35:33 <wob_jonas> the Beacons and the Elixir can do it, but those aren't good for us, firstly because you need two, secondly because then you need a way to get rid of cards you don't need
12:37:34 <wob_jonas> By the way, once you set up the infinite card recycling and the Omniscience, Manamorphose would give you infinite mana in any color if you needed that; but you probably don't need it, because using activated abilities can cause difficulties with taking the choice away later.
12:39:23 <wob_jonas> I'm still laughing at the Harmless Offering. I should addquote that.
12:40:17 <HackEgo> Quotes are just elements of the quantum dilapidated bogosphere. See qdb.
12:40:26 <HackEgo> quote formatting? ¯\(°_o)/¯
12:40:50 <wob_jonas> #`addquote <ais523> oh, we also need a Donate effect <ais523> Harmless Offering is the obvious choice given that we'll mostly be donating Hungry Lynxes
12:41:27 <HackEgo> quoteformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two.
12:42:22 <wob_jonas> `addquote <ais523> oh, we also need a Donate effect <ais523> Harmless Offering is the obvious choice given that we'll mostly be donating Hungry Lynxes
12:42:31 <HackEgo> 1322) <ais523> oh, we also need a Donate effect <ais523> Harmless Offering is the obvious choice given that we'll mostly be donating Hungry Lynxes
12:45:09 <ais523> wob_jonas: for the mana ability speed version of this, we can do that using Wild Cantor
12:45:20 <ais523> for the instant speed version, we don't need Wild Cantor at all
12:45:27 <ais523> (the trigger would be donating Elesh Norn)
12:45:38 <ais523> `card-by-name Harmless Offering
12:45:39 <HackEgo> Harmless Offering \ 2R \ Sorcery \ Target opponent gains control of target permanent you control. \ EMN-R
12:45:47 <ais523> sorcery speed version then :-)
12:46:01 <ais523> I'm not sure we can easily trigger this without a Wild Cantor
12:46:11 <ais523> which would be a good reason to leave it in
12:46:29 <wob_jonas> meh, just throw in an Orrery, you'll find you need it anyway sooner or later :-)
12:46:31 <ais523> and doing it at split second speed is flashier (and harder to interfere with)
12:46:43 <ais523> wob_jonas: some versions of the deck actually play a Quicken maindeck
12:46:56 <ais523> although not my reference list
12:47:01 <wob_jonas> there are other mana ability speed things comparable to Wild Cantor though
12:47:56 <wob_jonas> Phyrexian Tower is the most famous one
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12:49:42 <ais523> that doesn't really fit very well in the deck, though, as it doesn't naturally play creatures
12:50:56 <wob_jonas> there's no one card that lets you repeatedly draw and discard at instant speed, right? Jayemdae Tome and that colored but cheaper version they printed later allows drawing at instant speed, but instant speed discard is rare
12:51:25 <wob_jonas> well, there's all sorts of looting
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12:52:39 <ais523> what do you want that for?
12:52:47 <wob_jonas> eww, my searches are getting dirty by all these Portal cards
12:53:18 <ais523> there are quite a few creatures with abilities that cost "discard a card"
12:53:54 <ais523> `card-by-name Mesmeric Trance
12:53:55 <HackEgo> Mesmeric Trance \ 1UU \ Enchantment \ Cumulative upkeep {1} (At the beginning of your upkeep, put an age counter on this permanent, then sacrifice it unless you pay its upkeep cost for each age counter on it.) \ {U}, Discard a card: Draw a card. \ IA-R, ME2-R
12:53:59 <ais523> is that what you want?
12:54:00 <wob_jonas> dunno, I was just thinking because Dimir Guildmage is so useful if you have enough mana, because both the discard and the draw can target any player. you can make the opponent discard all cards with it... not that that really helps in this construction
12:54:31 <wob_jonas> no, I'm thinking more of something that lets you discard a card, force the opponent to discard a card, or you draw a card, any of these at instant speed and multiple times
12:54:49 <wob_jonas> but that probably doesn't exist all on one card
12:55:11 <wob_jonas> making the opponent loot is not good enough, he'll still have cards in his hand, until he loses from not being able to draw
12:55:57 <ais523> Wizards don't like instant speed discard
12:56:53 <wob_jonas> it still happens sometimes, but not just as a plain activated ability for no reason
12:57:08 <wob_jonas> and the colored Jayemdae is called Scepter of Insight
12:57:15 <ais523> Necrogen Spellbomb would work if you didn't have to sacrifice it
12:57:27 <ais523> `card-by-name Necrogen Spellbomb
12:57:27 <HackEgo> Necrogen Spellbomb \ 1 \ Artifact \ {B}, Sacrifice Necrogen Spellbomb: Target player discards a card. \ {1}, Sacrifice Necrogen Spellbomb: Draw a card. \ MRD-C
12:57:34 <ais523> but I think that's about as close as you'll get
12:57:55 <wob_jonas> I think you can get a bit closer than that
12:58:18 <HackEgo> Cinderhaze Wretch \ 4B \ Creature -- Elemental Shaman \ 3/2 \ {T}: Target player discards a card. Activate this ability only during your turn. \ Put a -1/-1 counter on Cinderhaze Wretch: Untap Cinderhaze Wretch. \ SHM-C
12:58:47 <HackEgo> Disrupting Scepter \ 3 \ Artifact \ {3}, {T}: Target player discards a card. Activate this ability only during your turn. \ A-R, B-R, U-R, RV-R, 4E-R, 5E-R, 6E-R, 7E-R, 8ED-R, 9ED-R
12:58:56 <ais523> those don't draw cards
12:59:22 <wob_jonas> you said Necrogen Spellbomb because it lets you draw too
13:00:22 <wob_jonas> I should have realized, I have the white and green spellbombs (gain life and animate land) and have seen the red one (shock), and each of them has a draw a card ability.
13:01:40 <ais523> there are two cycles of spellbombs, I think?
13:02:24 <wob_jonas> you're right, they made a worse one in Scars of Mirroding
13:02:34 <wob_jonas> just like how they made a cycle of worse Guildmages in RTR
13:03:04 <ais523> `card-by-name Nihil Spellbomb
13:03:05 <HackEgo> Nihil Spellbomb \ 1 \ Artifact \ {T}, Sacrifice Nihil Spellbomb: Exile all cards from target player's graveyard. \ When Nihil Spellbomb is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, you may pay {B}. If you do, draw a card. \ SOM-C, C13-C, C17-C
13:03:16 <ais523> that's a pretty widely played card
13:03:35 <ais523> exiling a graveyard and drawing a card for 1B is a pretty useful effect
13:03:53 <ais523> and the exact wording makes it usable in some combo decks
13:04:02 <wob_jonas> I have copies of Lifespark Spellbomb and Sunbeam Spellbomb. they're not very useful, although Lifespark Spellbomb might perhaps find some marginal utility in an infinite mana combo deck
13:09:55 <wob_jonas> the program loop is in your turn. you simulate counters with one token of a specific creature type each. you use Hungry Lynx controlled by the opponent to have triggers the trigger on when the counter would get reduced to zero.
13:11:12 <wob_jonas> this way you want to simulate The Amnesiac from Minsk level 1, and to avoid having to use triggers with a decrease effect, you modify each trigger by adding a constant to every counter, and keep reducing the counters.
13:11:47 <wob_jonas> you reduce them slower than the program triggers by using triggers on objects you control... I'm not sure if that works really
13:12:04 <wob_jonas> what was the strange card you used for that now?
13:12:56 <ais523> we control the Ghoul, and also one Rotlung Reanimator
13:13:05 <ais523> set to Zombie for both creature types
13:13:26 <ais523> when we create a zombie token via the reanimator, it immediately dies due to the opponent's Elesh Norn
13:13:30 <wob_jonas> the rotlung reanimator is for recreating the counter after the Hungry Lynx triggered so it's usable again
13:13:31 <ais523> thus causing another zombie token to be created, etc.
13:13:40 <ais523> wob_jonas: we use them for two purposes
13:13:45 <ais523> the opponent has them for recreating the counters
13:13:51 <ais523> and we have one for creating this infinite loop of zombies dying
13:14:05 <ais523> every dead zombie triggers the Noxious Ghoul and -1/-1's all the counters
13:14:09 <ais523> `card-by-name Noxious Ghoul
13:14:11 <HackEgo> Noxious Ghoul \ 3BB \ Creature -- Zombie \ 3/3 \ Whenever Noxious Ghoul or another Zombie enters the battlefield, all non-Zombie creatures get -1/-1 until end of turn. \ LGN-U, HOP-U
13:14:30 <wob_jonas> but why are two players enough for this?
13:15:07 <ais523> well, let's start at the "main loop", where the only things on the stack are a Noxious Ghoul trigger and Rotlung Reanimator trigger (in either order)
13:15:16 <ais523> both controlled by us, as the active player
13:15:25 <ais523> we can stack them in either order, but it doesn't matter which
13:15:40 <ais523> if the Reanimator trigger goes first, it just creates another 0/0 zombie, which gives us another of each trigger
13:16:04 <ais523> so there's always one Reanimator trigger and arbitrarily many Noxious Ghoul triggers, but the point is that it doesn't matter how many Ghoul triggers we allow to stack up before resolving them
13:16:07 <wob_jonas> the counters are also recreated by Noxious Ghoul, and you use some Radiant Destiny to make those tokens not die, right?
13:16:27 <ais523> the counters are recreated by Rotlung Reanimators controlled by the opponents
13:16:38 <ais523> we can use Blades of Velis Vel to make them Zombies in addition to their other types
13:16:54 <ais523> so that they don't get caught in the "blast radius" of the Noxious Ghoul
13:17:08 <ais523> it might be doable without, using mathematics to make sure that the toughness never falls to 0, but that's harder
13:17:56 <ais523> anyway, the point is that what we have on our side of the field leads to an infinite sequence of Noxious Ghoul triggers
13:18:03 <wob_jonas> "it doesn't matter how many Ghoul triggers we allow to stack up before resolving them" => it's not so simple. that might mean, depending on how exactly the infinite loop rules work, that you're permitted to draw the game at will. if that's true, then you must use a construction where the program can cause you to win, as opposed to one where the pro
13:18:03 <wob_jonas> gram causes you to lose if it terminates.
13:18:06 <ais523> /unless/ something happens to Elesh Norn, in which case the sequence will end
13:18:22 <ais523> wob_jonas: the rules say you can never choose to do something infinitely many times in a row if you have another option
13:18:57 <ais523> which means that if there's a legal stacking combination on our side that leads to game over, we have to take it
13:19:17 <ais523> and it's clear that if any combination leads to game over, the combination of always stacking the reanimator trigger below the ghoul trigger will do it
13:19:24 <wob_jonas> ARGH! now we use "counter" in three different ways
13:19:46 <ais523> let's use "variable" in the explanation then
13:20:06 <wob_jonas> minsky machines used "counter" for decades
13:20:24 <ais523> now, if a noxious ghoul trigger causes one of the opponent's creatures representing a variable to die
13:20:31 <int-e> wob_jonas: don't worry, it's all counter-intuitive.
13:20:34 <ais523> there will be a range of triggers on the opponent's side too, via game rules those always resolve first
13:20:59 <ais523> but they're commutative in the sense that they all act independently so the order in which the opponent stacks them doesn't matter
13:21:38 <wob_jonas> yes, the opponent triggers are commutative
13:21:52 <ais523> the triggers a) recreate the dead creature as a 2/2+2/2 token (unless it was Elesh Norn), b) put +1/+1 counters on creatures of a specific creature type
13:22:07 <ais523> b) will affect both ROM and RAM, but for ROM it doesn't matter how high the toughness is as it never dies anyway
13:22:49 <ais523> so the only relevant part of the effect is the one that toughens up variables other than the one that just became zero
13:23:22 <ais523> so we have "when a counter hits 0, its value becomes 4 and a constant is added to each other counter"
13:24:04 <wob_jonas> you're saying that extra triggers of the special Reanimator doesn't matter, because we only move forward with the trigger of the Noxious Ghoul. but what happens when we have triggers by the ordinary Reanimators, the ones that recreate counters. isn't it a problem to stack those in the wrong order, with respect to the Noxious Ghoul trigger?
13:24:31 <ais523> wob_jonas: they're owned by a different player
13:24:33 <ais523> specifically, the opponent
13:24:41 <ais523> it's our turn, so our triggers stack before theirs and thus resolve after theirs
13:24:59 <wob_jonas> so both the Lynxes and the per-counter Reanimators are owned by the opponent? I see
13:25:42 <ais523> err, controlled, not owned
13:26:03 <ais523> technically speaking we own all the cards involved, this is at least partly because we don't want to rely on specific cards existing in the opponent's deck
13:26:05 <wob_jonas> and what card exactly did you use as a lord effect, to add toughness to the tokens?
13:26:20 <ais523> makes the tokens come in as 4/4s
13:26:34 <ais523> that's a deviation from TWM's spec, because it's meant to be arbitrary there
13:26:38 <ais523> but I believe the language is still TC
13:26:59 <wob_jonas> who controls the single tokens that represent the variables?
13:27:10 <wob_jonas> right, because he has the reanimator
13:27:13 <ais523> opponent controls all ROM and RAM, we control the clock
13:27:15 <wob_jonas> I see, so that's why Elesh Norn works
13:27:39 <wob_jonas> I thought you'd need some other lord you copy or something
13:27:44 <int-e> . o O ( So... what would happen if at a sanctioned M:tG tournament, two players were to set up a game state where the winner depends on whether the Goldbach conjecture is true or not? )
13:27:58 <ais523> int-e: we were debating that earlier
13:28:14 <ais523> I don't think there's any legal option, the practical option would likely be to call the game a draw
13:28:23 <ais523> that said, setting that up without violating slow play rules will be hard
13:28:31 <ais523> as we need to be able to state the resulting gamestate in a reasonable length of time
13:28:36 <ais523> meaning it'll need to be heavily golfed
13:28:44 <wob_jonas> int-e: we were talking about that earlier. I was arguing that the player who sets it up would be disqualified no matter what, the other player might continue if he calls a judge early and doesn't cooperate
13:28:55 <wob_jonas> int-e: but after alercah's statements, I'm no longer convinced of this.
13:29:01 <ais523> perhaps the Collatz Conjecture would be golfier
13:29:21 <wob_jonas> int-e: it is still very unlikely that you could set this up, because you'd need to set up and explain everything without notes you took before the tournament, on a strict time limit to an impatient judge
13:29:21 <ais523> it's basically made for counter machines
13:30:19 <wob_jonas> and either of those might be easier than to set up a universal turing machine, which is what you'd need to encode some hard cryptographical problem
13:30:52 <wob_jonas> but I wonder if you could do even more golfier by encoding factoring of some particular composite number of your choice
13:31:08 <wob_jonas> more precisely the decision problem of whether it has a factor between 2 and a particular limit
13:31:41 <wob_jonas> or a factor that's 3 modulo 4 and below a particular limit, that might be slightly golfier so you don't have to skip 1
13:32:19 <ais523> if you pick a number with n digits at random (where n is large), what's the probability that it'll be hard to factorise quickly?
13:32:29 <ais523> the benefit of that is that you could just make up a number on the spot
13:32:34 <ais523> and have no idea whether it lead to a win for you or not
13:32:35 <wob_jonas> you don't need to pick one at random
13:32:44 <wob_jonas> you can choose a particular easy to remember number
13:32:55 <ais523> wob_jonas: yes but the point is that you need to not yourself know whether or not it's composite
13:32:57 <ais523> so you don't know who won
13:33:07 <wob_jonas> you choose one that's definitely composite
13:33:37 <wob_jonas> and you win if the factor is lower than a limit you set
13:33:48 <wob_jonas> and you set the limit right so it doesn't come out trivial
13:34:25 <wob_jonas> primality testing is too easy if the judge has access to the internet, you'd need a much higher number for it to be hard
13:34:50 <ais523> I see, so you use a probably-prime test, see it says "not prime"
13:34:54 <ais523> but still don't know what the factor is?
13:36:42 <wob_jonas> sort of like a composite number you'd use for RSA, although you might use a challenge that's slightly easier than you'd use for real world cryptography, as long as it still won't be factored during the tournament
13:37:42 <wob_jonas> so you choose an easy to learn one, one which has a form where all but six digits at the start and six digits at the end are zero, which probably would be too few digits for real world cryptography, but OK here
13:38:00 <wob_jonas> oh, and unlike in real world cryptography, nobody needs to have ever known the factors
13:38:05 <wob_jonas> not even the computer that generated the number
13:38:42 <wob_jonas> in fact, it's probably best if nobody knows the factors and the answer
13:39:06 <wob_jonas> you certainly aren't allowed to know that, because you knowing and not telling would probably be a tournament rules violation
13:40:58 <wob_jonas> per tournament rules 4.1 "Players must answer all questions asked of them by a judge completely and honestly, regardless of the type of information requested. Players may request to do so away from the match."
13:41:15 <wob_jonas> so you aren't allowed to know the result of the Turing machine but not reveal it
13:44:21 <int-e> wow, that's rather strong
13:44:41 <int-e> (since it fails to limit the scope of the questions)
13:48:18 <wob_jonas> The collatz conjecture is probably better
13:49:01 <wob_jonas> it's golfier, and if the opponent or a judge solves it, then we've won regardless of what happens with the tournament
13:54:46 <alercah> wob_jonas: you certainly wouldn't get disqualified for trying this
13:54:57 <alercah> at the very worst, you get an upgraded slow play game loss
13:55:29 <alercah> I suppose if you kept at it you could get yourself disqualified but really?
13:55:48 <ais523> if you got disqualified it would be for Stalling
13:56:19 <wob_jonas> alercah: not even if you would succeed? as opposed to trying it but never getting even remotely close
13:56:25 <ais523> but I think there's precedent saying that if you're genuinely performing your game actions as fast as possible, and they lead to progress in the gamestate, it's not Stalling even if those actions aren't working towards a win
13:56:35 <wob_jonas> alercah: and does the bribery chapter matter for this?
13:57:05 <ais523> this isn't bribery any more than Mana Clash is
13:57:09 <wob_jonas> ais523: and they're not working for a draw either?
13:57:15 <alercah> stalling must be explicitly to abuse the time limit
13:57:31 <alercah> you could eventually get disqualified for intentional slow play
13:57:46 <alercah> but I would only consider that after a game loss
13:59:08 <wob_jonas> in that this is hard to pull of, but probably not impossible
13:59:43 <wob_jonas> I'll have to look up some card prices then, to see if any of the pieces we used are very expensive
14:00:18 <ais523> well, the maindeck is a tournament-viable Legacy deck so it's naturally expensive
14:00:24 <ais523> but I think our additions would be very cheap
14:00:40 <wob_jonas> that's my guess too, but since I can look them up, I will
14:01:04 <wob_jonas> and if any piece is expensive, I can look for cheaper substitutes
14:01:06 <ais523> let's try to get a complete list of added cards
14:01:58 <ais523> Hungry Lynx, Rotlung Reanimator, Noxious Ghoul is the core of the combo, we definitely need those three
14:02:10 <ais523> everything else is more flexible but we can't do it with those three alone
14:02:58 <ais523> currently we have Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite as the -2/-2 effect, and Harmless Offering, Artificial Evolution (OK this is probably inflexible), Cackling Counterpart, Wild Cantor as the setup
14:03:15 <ais523> 8 added cards, not bad
14:03:27 <ais523> that means we only have to remove half the sideborad
14:04:03 <ais523> (we need a few other cards that are in the deck naturally, like Emrakul, the Aeons Torn; Wipe Away; and Omniscience+Enter the Infinite)
14:04:45 <ais523> two, there are already two in the deck naturally though
14:06:48 <wob_jonas> plus 4 Omniscience, 4 Force of Will (that latter seems the most expensive so far)
14:06:57 <ais523> Force of Will is in the deck naturally too
14:07:12 <ais523> also it isn't technically required, just makes it harder for the opponent to screw with us
14:07:23 <ais523> as I said, it's a tournament-viable Legacy deck and thus will naturally be expensive
14:07:39 <wob_jonas> although obviously you can resell it afterwards
14:08:01 <wob_jonas> (resell the expensive cards that is)
14:08:15 <ais523> I wasn't planning to actually do this myself
14:08:27 <ais523> among other things, there aren't many Legacy tournaments around here
14:08:30 <wob_jonas> I'm just talking in general, since you brought up the possibility
14:08:41 <wob_jonas> and I want to justify the old joke that mathematics is cheap
14:11:50 <wob_jonas> 2 City of Traitors (isn't cheap either)
14:12:22 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if there's an argument for putting the Wild Cantor maindeck
14:12:38 <ais523> because it would also act as acceleration, and the reference version I linked earlier can generate red mana
14:13:01 <wob_jonas> and then 4 Scalding Tarn, 1 Volcanic Island (pretty expensive)
14:13:11 <ais523> well, yes, it's a Legacy deck and it isn't monocolour
14:13:29 <ais523> that said, Steam Vents would work almost as well
14:14:14 <wob_jonas> not with Misty Rainforest, mind you
14:14:44 <wob_jonas> Steam Vents is one of the ravnica rare duals
14:15:04 <ais523> it's two life worse than Volcanic Island, but in Legacy combo decks two life is rarely relevant
14:15:09 <ais523> (it comes up sometimes but not very often)
14:15:25 <wob_jonas> so many dual lands out there, and many of the cycles have unconnected names
14:16:38 <ais523> they do it because they want generic names that they can print on any plane
14:16:56 <ais523> although I'm not convinced by this reasoning as it rarely worked out in practice
14:17:08 <ais523> e.g. the Steam Vents cycle has been printed only on Ravnica
14:17:20 <ais523> and they ended up having to print Dragonskull Summit on Ixalan, which doesn't have dragons
14:17:31 <wob_jonas> sometime they manage names that at least sound similar, such as Barren Moor, Forgotten Cave, Lonely Sandbar, Secluded Steppe, Tranquil Thicket; and of course it gets much easier if you see the actual cards, with art and frame and all
14:18:29 <wob_jonas> does Ixalan at least have skulls on pirate flags?
14:19:41 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Territorial Hammerskull
14:19:42 <HackEgo> Territorial Hammerskull \ 2W \ Creature -- Dinosaur \ 2/3 \ Whenever Territorial Hammerskull attacks, tap target creature an opponent controls. \ XLN-C
14:22:06 <wob_jonas> the Steam Vents cycle got reprinted in the Return to Ravnica block because it's so iconic, and if it weren't reprinted, it was because of its power level, which they might not have realized back in ravnica. I'm not sure that's too relevant about the naming.
14:22:21 <wob_jonas> yeah, I guess that's still "on Ravnica" for planes
14:22:22 <ais523> well, they haven't reprinted the Selesnya Sanctuary cycle either
14:22:26 <ais523> which does have a plane-specific name
14:22:28 <ais523> and which I rather liked
14:22:34 <ais523> I think they consider that one too powerful too, though
14:22:44 <ais523> Ravnica had a /lot/ of color fixing
14:22:46 <wob_jonas> they have reprinted that in commanders
14:22:59 <wob_jonas> but it is commons so it's cheap enough that I have four-of of most of them
14:23:13 <wob_jonas> four copies of five or six out of the ten I think
14:23:51 <wob_jonas> they don't need to reprint if it's common and there's enough on the market
14:24:50 <wob_jonas> I hate the font used in the title line of the recent cards. why did they have to choose a worse font, after they replaced the horrible colors and font of the old title line in Mirrodin?
14:25:49 <ais523> the current version of the font was chosen to be a font that isn't publicly available, to make the cards harder to counterfeit
14:28:35 <wob_jonas> mirage to invasion has bad colors and a very bad font on the title line. mirrodin to theros has a good font and good colors (not counting some time spiral block shenanigans). khans of tarkir to present has a somewhat worse font but still good colors.
14:28:55 <wob_jonas> really, counterfeiting is their reason? that sounds a bit stupid
14:30:44 <ais523> it's a major threat to their business, given the difference between the amount they charge for cards and the amount they cost to print
14:30:58 <ais523> that's why they started adding the hologram stamp on rares
14:32:08 <wob_jonas> In that Omnitell deck, which already includes wishes, is any card from the original sideboard necessary?
14:32:27 <wob_jonas> I mean, can you just throw the whole sideboard away to fill it with cards for the turing-machine setup?
14:33:24 <ais523> Enter the Infinite and Show and Tell in the sideboard are not technically necessary, but they make it a lot stronger
14:33:46 <ais523> Release the Ants is the intended finisher of the deck, although I think that's a mistake because there's a reliable kill just with the cards in the maindeck
14:34:22 <wob_jonas> But doesn't everyone have much better resolution scanners these days than printers, so the text outline for any card can be easily reconstructed? I have scanned graphics and photos in 600 dpi because it doesn't cost me anything more than a 300 dpi scan, and once you actually want to make decent quality counterfeits, you can go even higher.
14:35:01 <ais523> not commercial printers, their output has a better resolution than most scanners (and most modern printers, for that matter) can manage
14:35:05 <ais523> at least when printing text
14:35:12 <ais523> they print different layers separately
14:35:51 <ais523> this is why the easiest way to tell a counterfeit is normally to look at the edge of the expansion symbol with a powerful magnifying glass
14:36:16 <ais523> printers whose input for that was a set of pixels, rather than vector-format, tend to be unable to recreate it accurately, it's obviously fuzzy
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14:37:22 <ais523> btw, the maindeck Impulse is only there for a combo with Firemind's Foresight, so if you remove one you can remove the other too
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14:52:14 <wob_jonas> and it's not likely that just Sigma-one or primitive recursion or something is easier to simulate in M:tG than full Turing-completeness, right?
14:53:42 <wob_jonas> I guess that would be possible if we could have a trigger that copies a token to another token with the same variable toughness but different type
14:55:03 <wob_jonas> or perhaps if we represented variables with as many tokens as its value
14:57:13 <HackEgo> Fungal Sprouting \ 3G \ Sorcery \ Create X 1/1 green Saproling creature tokens, where X is the greatest power among creatures you control. \ M13-U
14:57:29 <HackEgo> Kin-Tree Invocation \ BG \ Sorcery \ Create an X/X black and green Spirit Warrior creature token, where X is the greatest toughness among creatures you control. \ KTK-U
14:57:50 <HackEgo> Miming Slime \ 2G \ Sorcery \ Create an X/X green Ooze creature token, where X is the greatest power among creatures you control. \ GTC-U
15:00:31 <wob_jonas> but you can't easily repeat those effects, because Spellbinder and similar effects are optional
15:05:43 <wob_jonas> So how much does the translation from that small Minsky machine to Amnesiac level 1 blow up? I think going from Amnesiac to Waterfall doesn't blow up too much.
15:10:18 <ais523> Amnesiac L1 is an O(n) blowup with the mechanical compilations
15:10:24 <ais523> but I think it's normally less if you do it by hand
15:11:09 <wob_jonas> ais523: O(n) blowup when the Minsky machine can increment or decrement variables by any fixed integer, and that integer is represented in binary in the description?
15:11:15 <lambdabot> LOWI 031450Z VRB01KT 9999 FEW090 SCT110 BKN250 09/M02 Q0992 R08/19//95 NOSIG
15:11:31 <wob_jonas> that is, the blowup doesn't depend on the integer increment values, but only on the number of counters and states?
15:11:47 <ais523> wob_jonas: yes, the blowup is to remember which state you're in when you do an increment
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15:11:54 <lambdabot> EGBB 031450Z 07013KT 3000 BR OVC006 01/M00 Q0993
15:12:09 <wob_jonas> then it might fit the 237 creature types
15:12:12 <ais523> that time looks out of date
15:12:26 <int-e> (I should've checked before I left the house... could have picked a different coat
15:13:45 <wob_jonas> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1749905/code-golf-fractran/1802570#1802570 --- WTF! this is on Stack Overflow? as opposed to Code Golf SE or something?
15:14:52 <wob_jonas> (ais523 linked to that earlier, but I didn't look)
15:15:17 <ais523> it predates PPCG being created
15:15:20 <ais523> and got locked for being offtopic
15:15:40 <ais523> PPCG got created mostly as a result of posts like that being repeatedly locked, people liked them and wanted somewhere to put them
15:15:41 <wob_jonas> and fractran might be a good language for this sort of M:tG construction too
15:15:55 <ais523> I don't think so, divisibility tests in M:tG are hard
15:16:26 <wob_jonas> you'd store only the prime exponents
15:16:38 <wob_jonas> not the representation as a single integer
15:17:07 <wob_jonas> it might not be as good as Waterfall, but still
15:22:11 <ais523> oh, in that case, tests for simultaneous presence of a particular subset of creatures are hard to do in M:tG
15:25:07 <wob_jonas> and you still use Blades of Velis Vel to protect the opponent's Rotlung Reanimators from the breath of the Ghouls, right?
15:25:39 <ais523> I think so, you need /something/ to add an additional creature type to it
15:26:12 <wob_jonas> yeah, Blade of Velis Vel is the easiest for that
15:26:47 <ais523> there might be a way to do it mathematically, have their toughnesses changing over time but never hitting 0
15:27:41 <wob_jonas> that could certainly work for the factoring problem where we have a strict easy to compute upper limit on the runtime
15:27:49 <ais523> Hungry Lynx, Rotlung Reanimator, Noxious Ghoul, (Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite), Harmless Offering, Artificial Evolution, Cackling Counterpart, Wild Cantor, Blades of Velis Vel
15:28:55 <ais523> would be nice to golf this down a bit
15:29:36 <ais523> wait, we need research//development, too
15:29:45 <ais523> Hungry Lynx, Rotlung Reanimator, Noxious Ghoul, (Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite), Harmless Offering, Artificial Evolution, Cackling Counterpart, Wild Cantor, Blades of Velis Vel, Research//Development
15:45:05 <ais523> it's a pity Mastermind's Aquisition costs double-black, if not for that it might have been viable in the maindeck
15:45:13 <ais523> we could still use it as an R//D replacement
15:56:32 <ais523> `card-by-name Fractured Identity
15:56:32 <HackEgo> Fractured Identity \ 3WU \ Sorcery \ Exile target nonland permanent. Each player other than its controller creates a token that's a copy of it. \ C17-R
15:57:10 <ais523> close to merging two of our slots but doesn't quite get there because we can't get the Lynx back out of exile
15:58:40 <ais523> `card-by-name coax from the blind eternities
15:58:42 <HackEgo> Coax from the Blind Eternities \ 2U \ Sorcery \ You may choose an Eldrazi card you own from outside the game or in exile, reveal that card, and put it into your hand. \ EMN-R
15:58:47 <ais523> can we use that rather than R//D?
15:59:04 <ais523> (you artificially evolve "Eldrazi" to match a creature type of the creature that got exiled)
16:00:56 <ais523> the idea is that we use Cunning and Burning wishes that we naturally have in our deck to fetch Coax, Fractured, and Artificial
16:01:04 <ais523> `card-by-name Blades of Velis Vel
16:01:05 <HackEgo> Blades of Velis Vel \ 1R \ Tribal Instant -- Shapeshifter \ Changeling (This card is every creature type.) \ Up to two target creatures each get +2/+0 and gain all creature types until end of turn. \ LRW-C, MM2-C
16:01:15 <ais523> Blades of Velis Vel is naturally an Eldrazi, so we can get that too
16:02:09 <ais523> then we use the standard double-Emrakul trick to keep recycling Coax and Artifical in order to get all the creatures out of our sideboard
16:02:48 <ais523> Hungry Lynx, Rotlung Reanimator, Noxious Ghoul, (Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite), Artificial Evolution, Wild Cantor, Blades of Velis Vel, Fractured Identity, Coax from the Blind Eternities
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16:08:10 <ais523> right now we're busy trying to prove Magic: the Gathering to be Turing complete even with no decisions made by the players (once a crafted gamestate is set up)
16:10:46 <ais523> or, rather, we've already pretty much proved it but we're trying to golf down the construction so that we can fit it in the sideboard of a tournament-viable deck
16:11:35 <ais523> <ais523> Hungry Lynx, Rotlung Reanimator, Noxious Ghoul, (Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite), Artificial Evolution, Wild Cantor, Blades of Velis Vel, Fractured Identity, Coax from the Blind Eternities
16:11:42 <ais523> current record is 9 cards, it seems likely we can do better though
16:12:11 <ais523> (this also makes certain assumptions about the rest of the deck; we're working from this Omnitell list: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=113604)
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16:37:10 <wob_jonas> Fractured Identity? does that mean you have to play Elesh last?
16:37:20 <wob_jonas> and also, that you don't use Harmless Offering now?
17:01:01 <ais523> yes, the idea was to save a card
17:01:32 <ais523> you would indeed need to play Elesh pretty late, but you'd have to do that anyway
17:01:50 <ais523> the idea is that Fractured Identity can combine the token-making and donating parts of the setup
17:02:19 <ais523> although that has the downside that the card gets exiled, so we have to change the "get cards out of our sideboard" part of the setup to compensate
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17:23:19 <ais523> err, hmm, there's a mistake in the construction: Blade of Velis Vel can't legally target Hungry Lynx no matter how much you adjust the creature types
17:24:15 <ais523> which makes it even more important to try to save that slot
17:27:12 <ais523> <706.2> Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, and counters are not copied.
17:27:19 <ais523> so we can't just switch to Shields of Veils Vel either
17:30:02 <ais523> I think Master Biomancer works but it'd be awkward
17:30:26 <ais523> (you hack it to say Zombie rather than Mutant while you're deploying the cats, then bounce it before you deploy the tokens)
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17:32:17 <ais523> I think it's the only option though
17:39:12 <ais523> `card-by-name Master Biomancer
17:39:13 <HackEgo> Master Biomancer \ 2GU \ Creature -- Elf Wizard \ 2/4 \ Each other creature you control enters the battlefield with a number of additional +1/+1 counters on it equal to Master Biomancer's power and as a Mutant in addition to its other types. \ GTC-M, C16-M
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17:50:20 <wob_jonas> ais523: why can't Shields of Velis Vel work?
17:50:32 <wob_jonas> if you do the construction in the right order?
17:51:18 <ais523> `card-by-name shields of velis vel
17:51:20 <HackEgo> Shields of Velis Vel \ W \ Tribal Instant -- Shapeshifter \ Changeling (This card is every creature type.) \ Creatures target player controls get +0/+1 and gain all creature types until end of turn. \ LRW-C
17:51:27 <ais523> oh wait, you can aim it at your opponent
17:51:34 <ais523> for some reason I assumed it'd only affect you
17:52:07 <ais523> we sent the ROM over first, then Shields it, then send over the RAM
17:52:36 <ais523> later on we can Shields ourself to prevent our Rotlung dying to the enemy Elesh Norn
17:53:01 <ais523> (the /+1 also keeps the enemy ROM and RAM alive while we temporarily cast Elesh so that we can copy her)
17:54:17 <ais523> 9 cards: Hungry Lynx, Rotlung Reanimator, Noxious Ghoul, (Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite), Artificial Evolution, Wild Cantor, Shields of Velis Vel, Fractured Identity, Coax from the Blind Eternities
17:54:40 <ais523> actually, let me order that by card type
17:55:11 <ais523> 9 cards: CREATURE: Hungry Lynx, Rotlung Reanimator, Noxious Ghoul, (Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite), Wild Cantor, INSTANT: Artificial Evolution, Shields of Velis Vel, SORCERY: Fractured Identity, Coax from the Blind Eternities
17:55:20 <ais523> because that's relevant in how we get them out of the sideboard
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17:55:38 <ais523> 9 cards: CREATURE/TRIBAL: Hungry Lynx, Rotlung Reanimator, Noxious Ghoul, (Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite), Wild Cantor, Shields of Velis Vel, INSTANT: Artificial Evolution, SORCERY: Fractured Identity, Coax from the Blind Eternities
17:55:53 <ais523> as we're getting out Shields based on its tribal type
17:56:48 <ais523> this is mostly creatures/tribals which is great, as it means we can use the existing Burning Wishes for the sorceries and existing Cunning wish for the instant and are unlikely to have run out
17:57:01 <ais523> (the wishes self-exile, so we can't loop them; Coax doesn't, so we canA)
17:59:31 <wob_jonas> ais523: don't you still need Wipe Away?
18:00:02 <wob_jonas> and maybe something more for either the recycling or the cleanup after the setup? I don't think I understand how that works
18:00:39 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Coax from the Blind Eternities
18:00:39 <HackEgo> Coax from the Blind Eternities \ 2U \ Sorcery \ You may choose an Eldrazi card you own from outside the game or in exile, reveal that card, and put it into your hand. \ EMN-R
18:01:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: how do you create the ram in first place?
18:02:13 <ais523> yes, we wish for Wipe Away
18:03:12 <ais523> to create the RAM we start by creating the Cleric tokens on our side of the field (via, e.g. Rotlung Reanimator set to Shaman and sacrificing a Cantor), then Fracturing them onto the other side of the battlefield
18:03:51 <wob_jonas> and after you send the tokens through, you evolve them to the right type? could work
18:04:12 <ais523> then to set the values away from all-2s we use a spare creature type and have a stack of Lynxes set to that type
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18:04:36 <ais523> sacrifice an evolved Cantor on our side and the Lynxes will place a precise amount of +1/+1 counters on everything based on their type
18:04:46 <ais523> then we never use the type again
18:05:17 <wob_jonas> instead of the Cantor, can't you use something that serves another function too though?
18:05:28 <wob_jonas> something that sacrifices for some other useful effect
18:07:29 <ais523> it does serve a useful function, it lets us start the combo with Wipe Away still on the stack
18:07:47 <ais523> to make it obvious that neither side can interfere
18:07:49 <wob_jonas> yeah, you want split second tricks
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18:11:46 <wob_jonas> what if you use Starlit Sanctum's second ability to start the combo, you control it and you don't control any changelings, make sure you sacrifice the last creature of the creature type you want, and as a bonus you can use Starlit Sanctum to adjust life totals somewhat for the finisher?
18:12:02 <ais523> `card-by-name starlit sanctum
18:12:04 <HackEgo> Starlit Sanctum \ Land \ {T}: Add {C} to your mana pool. \ {W}, {T}, Sacrifice a Cleric creature: You gain life equal to the sacrificed creature's toughness. \ {B}, {T}, Sacrifice a Cleric creature: Target player loses life equal to the sacrificed creature's power. \ ONS-U
18:12:23 <ais523> that isn't a mana ability
18:12:43 <ais523> "you gain life" doesn't generate mana
18:13:24 <ais523> also, creatures are the easiest card type to get out of our sideboard
18:13:35 <wob_jonas> or... let me check all the cards that generate Gold or Eldrazi Spawn tokens
18:13:57 <HackEgo> Development \ 3UR \ Instant \ Create a 3/1 red Elemental creature token unless any opponent has you draw a card. Repeat this process two more times. \ [This is half of the split card Research // Development.] \ DIS-R
18:14:01 <HackEgo> Research \ GU \ Instant \ Choose up to four cards you own from outside the game and shuffle them into your library. \ [This is half of the split card Research // Development.] \ DIS-R \ \ Research // Development \ GU // 3UR \ Instant // Instant \ Choose up to four cards you own from outside the game and shuffle them into your library. // Create a
18:14:19 <wob_jonas> oh right, you also use that eldrazi stuff
18:15:17 <ais523> right, we needed to get creatures back from exile too once we started using Fractured Identity
18:15:36 <ais523> and Coax gets creatures from both exile and sideboard (the creature type restriction isn't relevant because we need Artificial anyway)
18:15:53 <HackEgo> Essence Feed \ 5B \ Sorcery \ Target player loses 3 life. You gain 3 life and create three 0/1 colorless Eldrazi Spawn creature tokens. They have "Sacrifice this creature: Add {C} to your mana pool." \ ROE-C
18:16:03 <wob_jonas> but I think you don't want to drain the opponent to zero, so that's not what we want
18:17:11 <ais523> attack with Emrakul (naturally in the deck), in response to the annihilator trigger cast Wipe Away targeting Wild Cantor, then sacrifice Wild Cantor to generate mana
18:17:25 <ais523> if the combo collapses then the opponent will be facing down Emrakul and have nothing to block it with
18:18:15 <ais523> we get rid of our own Omniscience before this (after having made just enough mana to finish the combo by looping Cantor) so that we don't have any ability to stop our own win
18:18:34 <wob_jonas> but what if he has enough life for Emrakul?
18:18:42 <wob_jonas> to survive Emrakul's attack that is
18:18:48 <ais523> I was envisioning using multiple attacks while the board was empty
18:19:22 <wob_jonas> but you can't make copies of Emrakul
18:20:30 <ais523> we have infinite turns anyway
18:20:35 <wob_jonas> I guess you could just attack with more spare creatures than the opponent have lynxes
18:20:57 <ais523> we could also pile +1/+1 counters on Emrakul
18:21:04 <ais523> wob_jonas: cast trigger on Emrakul
18:21:11 <ais523> we're hardcasting it as part of the recycle loop
18:21:15 <ais523> (which is why it costs 27 mana)
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18:21:42 <ais523> specifically, the loop is cast Emrakul, it dies to legend rule, shuffle your library; cast Enter the Infinite, get your library back to hand
18:21:59 <ais523> end result is graveyard → hand, and it's free if Omniscience is in play, and it's entirely based on cards that are in Omnitell naturally
18:22:08 <ais523> you need the other copy of Emrakul on the battlefield for this to work
18:22:24 <ais523> (note: if it got exiled somehow, you can get it back with Coax before starting the combo)
18:22:59 <wob_jonas> that's much better than a Dark Confidant combo
18:23:18 <ais523> playing Dark Confidant and Emrakul in the same deck is inadvisable anyway ;-)
18:23:43 <ais523> *shuffle your graveyard into your library
18:25:00 <wob_jonas> wtf, Omniscience is from M2013? what did people use before that came out?
18:25:27 <ais523> Omnitell didn't exist as a deck at the time
18:25:59 <wob_jonas> I dunno, I just thought either it was older, or there's some very similar older card
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18:26:08 <ais523> `card-by-name Genesis Wave
18:26:09 <HackEgo> Genesis Wave \ XGGG \ Sorcery \ Reveal the top X cards of your library. You may put any number of permanent cards with converted mana cost X or less from among them onto the battlefield. Then put all cards revealed this way that weren't put onto the battlefield into your graveyard. \ SOM-R
18:26:19 <ais523> that was used for this sort of stupid combo, sometimes
18:26:21 <wob_jonas> simply because I don't usually know about rares from sets newer than M2010
18:27:10 <wob_jonas> I mean, people have invented a hundred different infinite mana combos, and some of them give any color, and some of them replace Omniscience just fine
18:27:50 <wob_jonas> ah yes, and there was another symmetric one
18:28:07 <wob_jonas> which put cards into play from your hand and from your opponent's hand too
18:29:18 <HackEgo> Hypergenesis \ Sorcery \ Suspend 3--{1}{G}{G} (Rather than cast this card from your hand, pay {1}{G}{G} and exile it with three time counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter. When the last is removed, cast it without paying its mana cost.) \ Starting with you, each player may put an artifact, creature, enchantment, or
18:29:40 <wob_jonas> not useful here, just that's what Genesis Wave reminds me
18:30:22 <HackEgo> Eureka \ 2GG \ Sorcery \ Starting with you, each player may put a permanent card from his or her hand onto the battlefield. Repeat this process until no one puts a card onto the battlefield. \ LE-R, VMA-M, MED-R
18:30:38 <wob_jonas> that's the original version Hypergenesis is nerfing
18:31:34 <ais523> `card-by-name Show and Tell
18:31:35 <HackEgo> Show and Tell \ 2U \ Sorcery \ Each player may put an artifact, creature, enchantment, or land card from his or her hand onto the battlefield. \ US-R, CN2-M
18:31:45 <ais523> that's actually in Omnitell, it's how it affords to play Omniscience
18:31:58 <ais523> (it can also just put Emrakul in directly if it has no better option, which is risky because the opponent can often remove it)
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19:03:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:StackFlow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54274&oldid=42023 * B jonas * (+12734)
19:03:41 <esowiki> [[StackFlow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54275&oldid=54273 * B jonas * (-12176)
19:05:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:StackFlow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54276&oldid=54274 * B jonas * (+146)
19:05:10 <esowiki> [[StackFlow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54277&oldid=54275 * B jonas * (-164)
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20:11:31 <esowiki> [[RTFM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54278 * TeslaX93 * (+1643) first version
20:12:13 <esowiki> [[F^3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54279 * TeslaX93 * (+18) redirect
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21:08:53 <zzo38> Did you see if there is a mistake in ZPXDB?
21:09:22 <zzo38> I am not sure how I should test it properly, but maybe you know, and then you can tell me how.
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22:12:16 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54280&oldid=54259 * TeslaX93 * (+35) added RTFM and F3
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22:17:55 <wob_jonas> ais523: One more important question about the M:tG construction is this. If you don't insist on tournament viability, how can you modify the construction such that the abstract machine can safely query inputs from either player at its choice, in order that we can simulate an M:tG game or any other game.
22:23:40 <int-e> so you're making an alternating TM?
22:23:58 <HackEgo> An ATM is when you're withdrawing money right now at a machine that will duplicate your relevant info.
22:25:15 <int-e> yeah I guess that's better than "An ATM is an alternating Turing machine. It alternates between dispensing and not dispensing money." (but here's the idea for the record)
22:26:59 <wob_jonas> int-e: I don't know what an alternating Turing machine is
22:28:20 <wob_jonas> int-e: ah. yes, something like that.
22:28:54 <wob_jonas> although you might not find the true value it computes, because you and the opponent need not play optimally.
22:29:37 <int-e> "alternating" generalizes "non-deterministic"; when you get to make a choice in a non-deterministic TM, it will accept if any of the choices leads to an accepting state; in an ATM, for some of the non-deterministic choices, *all* of the paths need to lead to acceptance, while for others, like in NTMs, it suffices for one of the choices to lead to accepting paths (this gives rise to an arbitrary...
22:29:43 <int-e> ...alternation of finite existential and universal quantifiers)
22:30:07 <int-e> And that in turn has game semantics, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehrenfeucht%E2%80%93Fra%C3%AFss%C3%A9_game ... closing the circle.
22:30:44 <wob_jonas> Plus I guess you might want to add a random source too.
22:31:08 <int-e> yeah there's nothing probabilistic about ATMs.
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22:33:50 <wob_jonas> Luckily M:tG has tons of cards that offers a choice to the controller, and a large enough selection of cards that offer a choice to the opponent or make a choice at random, so it is probably possible to add all that.
22:34:09 <wob_jonas> Hmm, that might not be enough though
22:34:52 <wob_jonas> You might also want a way for some of the state of the program to be hidden from the players, and that might be very hard if you want it working strictly,
22:35:25 <wob_jonas> because there's almost no way in M:tG to store more hidden state than what the permutation of the physical cards can store.
22:36:09 <wob_jonas> Luckily, state hidden from both players isn't a big problem, you can just approximate that with randomness and lots of computation. State hidden from just one player can be a problem.
22:36:17 <wob_jonas> And that might be hard to simulate too.
22:43:54 <int-e> (but you can only havea bounded number of those, I guess, and even if you *can* operate on such hidden information, that act would reveal it)
22:43:59 <wob_jonas> I guess you could use cryptography to simulate the hidden information
22:44:22 <wob_jonas> but that would only work if you forced the opponent to do expensive cryptographic operations in his head
22:45:41 <wob_jonas> it's probably easier to just simulate a perfect information game, like chess or go
22:46:58 <int-e> or backgammon, if you want to use the probabilistic feature
22:48:14 <wob_jonas> The advantage is that there are already nice small implementations of chess for multiple real computers, so you only need to simulate most of a 6502 plus RAM plus some IO devices and then run an existing chess program
22:49:36 <wob_jonas> int-e: yeah. and if you can't easily store arbitrary hidden information, that means not only you can't simulate M:tG, you also can't simulate Scrabble or Starcraft.
22:49:50 <int-e> which lead me to https://gilkalai.wordpress.com/2011/01/14/is-backgammon-in-p/ (still reading, but at least some people are interested :) )
22:52:13 <wob_jonas> although you could simulate a single-player game with hidden information and randomness, if you don't mind a few more levels of exponential slowdown (since we're using a counter machine, you already have at least one level of exponential slowdown)
22:52:21 <int-e> homomorphic encryption is a relevant keyword
22:52:35 <int-e> (if you want to simulate hidden information through crypto)
22:54:18 <wob_jonas> int-e: you could technically do that, but I don't think you need that. Much less power is enough to just simulate M:tG, although you might need homomorphic encryption to faithfully simulate Starcraft or a Counterstrike deathmatch.
22:55:01 <int-e> which still isn't practical, I guess. "In late 2014, a re-implementation of homomorphic evaluation of the AES-encryption circuit using HElib, reported evaluation time of just over four minutes on 120 inputs, bringing the amortized per-input time to about 2 seconds." [wikipedia]
22:55:01 <wob_jonas> And again, the problem would be that the opponent would need to compute difficult crypto computations in his head to keep hidden information, or at least ask a judge to do it for him.
22:55:35 <wob_jonas> And it'd be hard to convince a non-accomplice to do that.
22:58:24 <wob_jonas> you're already using a construction that has at least one level of exponential slowdown. You obviously shortcut most of that. So you could just say that the opponent only needs to encrypt each of his decisions (with random salt), the simulated machine decrypts it (in double or triple exponential time, who cares), and since you're shortcutting every
22:58:24 <wob_jonas> thing, you can just shortcut all the crypto part too by just playing the simulated game and keeping hidden info with pieces of paper facing down and similar traditional methods.
22:59:41 <wob_jonas> Mind you, it might be possible to make an improved reduction to M:tG that has only polynomial slowdown, in particular a fixed simulation of StackFlow could probably do that.
23:00:05 <wob_jonas> (StackFlow with a bounded number of stacks and states etc.)
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00:09:30 <ais523> wob_jonas: you can actually take user input, at least from the opponent, with just the cards we have now
00:09:42 <ais523> if you use the same construction but set both creature types on one of the Hungry Lynxes to the same thing
00:09:59 <ais523> then the counter will be set to either 4 or 5 depending on the order in which they stack the triggers
00:10:35 <ais523> although, actually reading values that are that close in magnitude would be hard because it'd lead to multiple creatures dying simultaneously
00:11:08 <ais523> also, you can't simulate M:tG, there's no way to do the infinite loop detection :-P
00:12:03 <ais523> <ais523> 9 cards: CREATURE/TRIBAL: Hungry Lynx, Rotlung Reanimator, Noxious Ghoul, (Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite), Wild Cantor, Shields of Velis Vel, INSTANT: Artificial Evolution, SORCERY: Fractured Identity, Coax from the Blind Eternities
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00:24:14 <zzo38> If you can make stuff that cares if a subgame is ended by not knowing if it halt, and use other cards that take stuff from sideboard they can be used to affect the main game from the subgame, then there is possibility to be uncomputable and solve halting problems, if the rule is supposed to work that way.
00:25:12 <ais523> you can affect the main game simply because subgame creation cards have an effect on the main game
00:25:56 <ais523> I don't think there's any way to create an actual paradox, though (in which we have a termination detector for M:tG itself rather than just for Turing machines)
00:26:24 <ais523> anyway, I'm going to bed
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00:26:49 <zzo38> Yes, such as affecting life total depending who wins/loses, but that is not the only way to affect the main game
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00:42:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:StackFlow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54281&oldid=54276 * Oerjan * (+0) People keep getting this backwards...
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01:17:02 <shachaf> oerjan: maybe because it's confusing hth
01:17:28 <shachaf> people should talk about coreductions instead, which are merely nfusing
01:17:51 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54282&oldid=53890 * Superchargedcoffee * (+95) /* Normal implementations */
01:18:07 <int-e> Well, I'm not sure why oerjan is calling themselves "people".
01:30:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:StackFlow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54283&oldid=54281 * Int-e * (+0) Undo revision 54281 by [[Special:Contributions/Oerjan|Oerjan]] ([[User talk:Oerjan|talk]]) (Yes, people keep getting this wrong.)
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01:35:55 <int-e> A reduction from A to B takes an instance of A and turns it into an instance of B. Here, a StackFlow program becomes a M:tG deck and instructions for starting the game.
01:36:30 <int-e> What people *do* get wrong is which direction they need. (Reducing from the halting problem shows undecidability; reducing to the halting problem shows semidecidability.)
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01:52:18 * oerjan needs brain replacement, stat
02:52:39 <FreeFull> int-e: Which problems can't be reduced to the halting problem?
03:10:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: "you can't simulate M:tG, there's no way to do the infinite loop detection" => unless you can use the host game's infinite loop detection for that. That would get really ugly, you'd need like two or three different ways to get input from each player for that.
03:12:56 <wob_jonas> That probably won't work here, but it happened to just work out in my reduction from (1) with arrays to (1).
03:13:28 <wob_jonas> You can arrange it just so that the infinite loop rule in (1) simulates the infinite loop rule in (1) with arrays.
03:23:56 <oerjan> FreeFull: the halting problem for TMs with a halting oracle hth
03:24:36 <oerjan> *oracle for ordinary TMs
03:25:50 <FreeFull> Encode a program that halts when it finds a counterexample to collatz conjecture that is a cycle
03:30:26 <FreeFull> Checking for a divergent trajectory would be tougher
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04:28:10 <zzo38> I made more of Free Hero Mesh conversion program. One output (the ".class" file; it creates four files, but the other three are binary) is: https://arin.ga/grhVRM So far, shapes, class codes, and help texts are not implemented, but everything else is. You can now complain about it if the syntax could be altered and other suggestions and comments and complaints please.
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04:50:45 <zzo38> I still have not figured out level 86 of this tsume shogi game
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07:21:43 <zzo38> What other formats to compress 2-dimensional data will include a rotation flag?
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07:37:28 <wob_jonas> zzo38: jpeg, and some camera raw formats do have that
07:37:43 <wob_jonas> jpeg not natively, only in camera metadata
07:39:02 <wob_jonas> all this is because most modern cameras save the rotation, either derived by a heuristic from the image itself, or from an acceleration sensor in the camera, because people often use the same camera upright or rotated
07:39:30 <wob_jonas> there's usually four settings of the rotation flag that the camera uses, as multiples of 90 degrees
08:34:53 <\oren\_> us flag with mars colony https://imgur.com/e9zSfkb
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10:38:21 <int-e> FreeFull: the non-halting problem doesn't reduce to the halting problem, but I guess the standard example is the universal halting problem (does a TM halt on all possible inputs?) which is neither semidecidable nor cosemidecidable.
10:39:49 <int-e> FreeFull: also, more fundamentally, anything not below \Sigma_1 in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetical_hierarchy
10:41:39 <int-e> FreeFull: (the non-halting problem is in \Pi_1; the universal halting problem is in \)
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11:32:55 <wob_jonas> zzo38: also I think in the sprite-tile based graphics processor in some 8-bit era game consoles, the sprites have X and Y mirror flags so the bitmap only has to be stored once
11:33:24 <wob_jonas> this is why in game boy super mario land 2, when an enemy dies, its sprite is shown mirrored
11:38:34 <Roger9> with three bits you could encode rotation & X/Y mirroring (depends on rotation)
11:38:41 <Roger9> but only in 90 degree increments ofc
11:38:55 <wob_jonas> Roger9: yes, but actual rotation isn't so cheap to compute on the fly
11:39:31 <wob_jonas> Roger9: the sprite bitmaps are stored in the ordinary ROM or RAM of the machine, which is read in bytes, and there's usually four pixels per byte
11:39:48 <Roger9> ah, I can kinda see what you mean
11:40:06 <wob_jonas> so if you render normally, you read one byte and render four pixels from it, but if it's rotated, you read each byte four times to render one pixel from it
11:40:28 <wob_jonas> reading a byte multiple times isn't the problem, but reading a new byte each pixel is a bit difficulty
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12:10:50 <Taneb> Does anyone know the best way to staple together a booklet (multiple sheets of foled paper) with a desk stapler?
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12:12:42 <wob_jonas> Taneb: how many pages? If it's more than 10 or 15, then you usually want a desk hole punch and one of those flexible flat metal clamps that can be opened and closed multiple times and are usually put into these cheap plastic folders, but occasionally you can find it without the folder front and back sheet. Both desktop hole punches and these clamps
12:13:54 <wob_jonas> Taneb: and if it's over 50 pages, then you might want spiral binding, which needs a more expensive machine, but the use-once spiral binder is cheap and there are shops that do spiral binding as a service for quite cheap.
12:14:13 <wob_jonas> (The spiral binder machine is still something a large office can buy.)
12:16:04 <wob_jonas> There's also an intermediate solution, also for over 50 pages, of reopenable ring binders with two or four rigid rings. These exist in various sizes, and are more expensive than the folders with the plastic clamp, but for large amount of pages it can be worth. I used one to organize my university notes for a few years, because you can insert and re
12:16:04 <wob_jonas> move sheets easily hundreds of times without damage.
12:16:18 <wob_jonas> Note that four holes can still be punched easily with a cheap two-hole hole punch.
12:17:32 <wob_jonas> 10 sheets? I think for 10 sheets you can just use either a single staple 45 degrees diagonally near the top left (for ltr main writing direction) so that any number of top pages can be folded on the bottom,
12:18:16 <wob_jonas> or two or three vertical staples on the left margin so it folds like a normal book, but that latter is harder to execute well.
12:19:26 <wob_jonas> I think if it don't expect too much use of the booklet, one staple on the top left corner is usually the best.
12:20:43 <wob_jonas> This is eg. the normal way we have students staple between 8 and 16 pages of blank sheets on written exams at the start of the exam (before they receive the task sheet) on exams with high risk of cheating.
12:21:11 <wob_jonas> I mean, we provide staplers and staples, students bring the empty sheets.
12:21:41 <Taneb> My situation is I've printed some text expecting to be folded horizontally and then read like a book
12:23:59 <wob_jonas> Oh, and importantly, use the normal size staples, the one with the two tiny holes in the paper approximately 0.013 apart, not the smaller staples. The smaller staples are junk.
12:25:13 <wob_jonas> Taneb: is it a document where people will be deeply immersed and turning pages a lot, like a hard to understand maths article, or just one of those reports or legal documents that probably nobody will read much? If the latter, then a staple is fine. In any case, stapling is undoable, so people can change their mind later.
12:25:37 <Taneb> wob_jonas, the former, and it's solely for my benefit
12:25:52 <wob_jonas> If it's only for yourself, then none of these.
12:26:03 <Taneb> ...actually I think needle and thread would be better than stapling
12:27:23 <wob_jonas> Use a removable paperclip if you only have few of these, remove the paperclip for reading; or just use nothing, store it in a folder with other documents, and label and number the pages for easier assembly if they get loose.
12:27:46 <wob_jonas> If you've got lots of such documents, then it might be worth to invest in a ring binder (there exist ones with different thicknesses) and put everything in to them.
12:27:48 <Taneb> It's slipping as I read it
12:28:59 <wob_jonas> I usually just used a paperclip and folders. Now I have like a thousand pages of old documents in like six thick folders, most of which is useless, but one day I'll have to go through it and find the twenty useful pages and throw away the rest.
12:29:21 <wob_jonas> Luckily digital cameras make this thing cheaper, because you can cheaply photograph any document if you're not sure you'll need it later.
12:29:39 <Taneb> https://imgur.com/s7IIxgA
12:32:33 <wob_jonas> Taneb: don't fold it like a booklet. Have one stack of pages on your right that you cyclically permute and all face upright, and when you're reading the reverse of the top page of that cyclical list, then (a) if it's not stapled, put that one sheet on the left next to the stack, (b) if it is stapled on the top left, then rotate the stack left 90 de
12:32:33 <wob_jonas> grees while flat on the desk and fold the top page down so you can read its reverse.
12:33:09 <wob_jonas> During that, the same side of the main stack will always face up, and you'll always have only one sheet loose from it, unless you're trying to turn many pages at once to find something.
12:33:33 <wob_jonas> Is that clear enough, or should I make photos?
12:35:53 <wob_jonas> You can still fold like a booklet without slipping, but in that case don't staple or otherwise attach the sheets, don't fold the sheets at all (keep each completely flat), so the equivalent of the book spine is actually of negative width. But for that, you need a stable desk space with enough width for two pages.
12:36:19 <wob_jonas> Folding and trying to keep a positive width spine might be your error here if you want to stick closest to what you're doing
13:05:36 <wob_jonas> If you compile from The Amnesiac from Minsk level 1 to The Waterfall Model, do you automatically get the property that the Waterfall program will never find two clocks run out at the exact same time? I think that's true, and it's important because the M:tG construction would emulate the program wrong if two clocks ran out at the same time.
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15:16:38 <lambdabot> LOWI 041450Z 08010KT 020V160 CAVOK 14/M04 Q0996 WS R26 TEMPO 12010G20KT
15:17:46 <int-e> wow, 29% humidity, very dry.
15:21:53 <int-e> Oh and we did start out around -04°C and almost 100% humidity... so it kind of makes sense. Huge difference between then and now.
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16:18:23 <wob_jonas> zzo38: oh nice, so the sqlite webpage now points to a public web archive of the sqlite-users mailing list. It used to point to a private archive, readable only after you subscribe, which is rather incvoncenient, because I want to link to some specific emails in it.
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17:19:55 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54284&oldid=54282 * B jonas * (+136)
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17:44:39 <wob_jonas> the internet is awesome. I just found out about something awesome that exists in the real world.
17:46:16 <wob_jonas> A bronze statue depicting the coronation pall with realistic proportions and in detail, apparently life sized or close, exhibited in the Buda castle: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Coronation_pall_of_Hungary_by_Tibor_Rieger_(Budapest)
17:46:33 <wob_jonas> It might have been there since 2007, but I never knew it was there, because it's in the north side of the castle, and I rarely go there.
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17:47:02 <wob_jonas> I'll absolutely have to watch this soon, although since it's outdoors, the snow would cover it.
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18:15:46 <zzo38> I do mean the three bit rotation flag. And, I know that some game systems (including Famicom) can flip/mirror sprites (although Famicom has only flip/mirror not rotation, and only for sprites and not backgrounds; some systems support it for backgrounds too I think)
18:17:02 <wob_jonas> zzo38: in that case I only know of such a rotation flag in formats representing photographs, in the metadata sometimes saved by the camera, sometimes added by hand later (because older cameras like my mobile phone don't guess the orientation, and sometimes newer cameras could guess wrong)
18:17:29 <zzo38> Anyways I was asking about compression. JPEG doesn't use it natively so maybe doesn't count I don't know
18:17:33 <wob_jonas> zzo38: are there systems where horizontal flip is supported for tiles but vertical flip isn't?
18:18:29 <zzo38> wob_jonas: I don't know. However, my own (unimplemented, and not necessarily finalized either) computer design supports vertical but not horizontal flip for tiles.
18:19:10 <wob_jonas> Such metadata rotation flag is probably stored in most not too old brands of camera raw files, plus jpeg, tif, and probably other compressed formats.
18:20:01 <wob_jonas> I've even temporarily stored such a flag in a PPM comment once, but that's not standard, only one tool I wrote wrote it plus one or two scripts I wrote read it.
18:20:21 <zzo38> Also, there are two archives for the sqlite-users mailing list, one private and one public. (I don't know why, but it is.)
18:20:52 <wob_jonas> zzo38: that's normal, there are (or used to be) a lot of third-party mail archive servers that archive many public mailing lists from various servers.
18:21:05 <wob_jonas> It makes sense, because if the mailing list is public, then those web archive services can just subscribe to it.
18:21:08 <zzo38> The SQLite web page links to both.
18:21:42 <zzo38> Yes, of course a program can subscribe to it and automatically archive it public; I know that already.
18:23:47 <wob_jonas> I'd guess the sqlite guys made the private archive themselves, private so that email address harvesting bots can't easily read it, and the other archive started later. Let me check how far the public archive goes.
18:25:08 <wob_jonas> The public archive goes back to https://www.mail-archive.com/sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org/mail60.html mails from 2014-09
18:25:21 <wob_jonas> Let me see when I reported that bug...
18:26:03 <zzo38> Yes, maybe, and then they linked both because the public one hides the email addresses (which isn't necessarily a good idea, because sometimes it might believe something is an email address even when it isn't, and they might want to make it public)
18:27:47 <wob_jonas> And yes, servers doing that in an overzealous way is very annoying, ones that think anything with an at sign in it is an email and thus corrupting all sorts of computer-readable code or data in hard to recover ways.
18:28:13 <wob_jonas> Then there's the somewhat more modern phenomenon of turning anything with a dot in it to a hyperlink.
18:28:41 <zzo38> I, too, reported a bug, having to do with sqlite3_get_auxdata() and triggers. (It has been corrected.)
18:31:19 <wob_jonas> If only they had an archive of sqlite-dev too. I want to link an email from there too.
18:31:24 <wob_jonas> Oh well, it's still better than nothing
18:33:05 <wob_jonas> I am proud of having found that bug, and should make a short writeup about it, linking the emails and the commits fixing it, then link the writeup from my cv.
18:34:27 <zzo38> Yes, I don't do those things on my own web pages. Although, you could also put the plain text files on gopher only (email harvesting bots might not be programmed to access gopher, although it is also possible that it does, but I think it is less likely)
18:34:35 <zzo38> What bug did you find?
18:35:23 <wob_jonas> https://www.mail-archive.com/sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org/msg92963.html The comparison of numbers wasn't transitive when integers and floating point numbers both were involved.
18:36:17 <wob_jonas> I first reported that the comparison is not transitive, but that understandingly got lost among the hundreds of emails by beginners complaining about how floating point numbers don't work like real numbers or something (you get that on a lot of programming mailing lists), so I reposted without referring to that at all.
18:36:43 <wob_jonas> The devs fixed that second try, after I complained that the first attempted fix didn't work.
18:36:59 <wob_jonas> It's not trivial to fix, it's not even clear to me what the best fix would be.
18:37:09 <wob_jonas> But the current fix seems good enough.
18:38:23 <wob_jonas> This is in an important class of bugs, because it can come up in a lot of dynamically typed languages where you can easily mix floating points and integers, especially ones that have commonly used functions reading an input such that you don't know if an integer or float comes out,
18:39:15 <wob_jonas> such as perl or lua, because then if you read untrusted input and try to sort it or store it in a dictionary, and the comparison (even just equals comparison) is implemented wrong, you can get inconsistent results and even segfaults or arbitrary code execution in the worst case.
18:39:47 <zzo38> Or some programming language such as Awk and JavaScript
18:40:09 <wob_jonas> The worst case doesn't happen very often, and even in sqlite you can't get segfaults or anything like that, only incorrect and inconsistent results to queries plus warnings about an inconsistent database.
18:40:18 <zzo38> Or some programming language such as Awk and JavaScript which has only floating point
18:41:02 <wob_jonas> How is that relevant? If you only have floating points (and presumably only one type of floating points) then this particular bug won't hurt you. Comparing NaNs incorrectly can hurt you, but that's a different inconsistent comparison bug.
18:41:43 <zzo38> Yes, that is a different bug I suppose
18:43:08 <wob_jonas> NaN comparison bugs is also an important class of bugs, and they're worth popularizing, though they're already well-known, it's not always easy to figure out how best to protect against them in a generic way.
18:44:37 <wob_jonas> It might take 25 more years until everyone (including people using old versions of Apple or MS compilers) get easy access to a total comparison function for floating points that they can use for sorting.
18:46:12 <zzo38> But you can pass your own function for comparing with qsort if you are using that, anyways
18:47:42 <wob_jonas> And currently sqlite and perl and lua and all those other languages have to write their own comparison functions (they don't use qsort, but that's irrelevant)
18:51:49 <zzo38> I also had proposals for new features for the SQLite virtual table mechanism, including new methods xInterrupt, xFreeIdxStr, xUpdateInline, and also an option to reduce the number of bits set in colUsed in some cases, and a way to consume LIMIT/OFFSET clauses, and indexing virtual tables on expressions and partial index (which would be done by calling sqlite3_declare_vtab() a second time with a CREATE INDEX statement)
18:52:39 <wob_jonas> And while I'm there, I should also link to the other sqlite code bug I found from my CV
18:52:48 <wob_jonas> that one was earlier, I think, and a bug in the query parser/compiler
18:54:07 <wob_jonas> http://www.sqlite.org/src/tktview/3a88d85f3670
18:54:37 <wob_jonas> From 2014-08 so the public archive won't have the mail
18:54:53 <zzo38> The other one more thing to add would be a action code input in the sqlite3_index_info structure, which is normally SQLITE_SELECT, but if it is a UPDATE or DELETE statement where the entire WHERE clause is consumable then it will mention that instead, in order if an implementation wishes to set SQLITE_INDEX_SCAN_UNIQUE if you tell it to delete everything and it can return a special row that when deleted, deletes everything.
18:56:20 <zzo38> The xInterrupt method and consuming LIMIT/OFFSET clauses would be useful when the virtual table is accessing the internet.
18:57:21 <zzo38> What is your opinion of these things?
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19:07:00 <wob_jonas> zzo38: no opinion, because I didn't look much into the custom virtual table interface part of sqlite3. I don't care about that interface, and it doesn't get into my way. If I want to define my custom tables, then I don't see why I'd want to go through sqlite3 for its interface at all.
19:07:11 <wob_jonas> (This applies to current versions of sqlite3 obviously.)
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19:17:16 <zzo38> How can you define custom tables like that without going through sqlite3 for its interface though?
19:18:17 <wob_jonas> Pressing k pauses or resumes youtube. This is good to know.
19:20:30 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I use sqlite3 mostly because of how it solves storing the table data on the disk, with all the block and record and b-tree stuff, plus managing atomic transactions with arbitrary reads and writes on them. The sql language and automatic query optimizations are less important to me. So if I don't want to use sqlite's built-in table+index, then
19:20:30 <wob_jonas> I don't see why I'd want to go through its query language and query optimizer at all.
19:20:59 <wob_jonas> If I implement a custom table, then I'll just use whatever custom interface I define for it, with exactly the operations I want.
19:22:33 <zzo38> If you are not accessing it with SQL statements, then you can use a different custom interface. I am just saying sometimes is useful accessing it with SQL statements, including to deal with the custom table and standard SQL tables together.
19:23:08 <wob_jonas> Maybe it's useful, I don't think that's useful for me.
19:24:24 <wob_jonas> If I want to deal with custom and standard tables together, I can just loop through rows of sqlite3's tables with an sql SELECT ... WHERE ... > ... LIMIT ... query, which recent versions make even easier using list lexicographic comparison built into the sql language.
19:28:46 <HackEgo> 1/2:twitter//Twitter is Taneb's bird collection (presumably). \ lynn//lynn likes to impersonate seasonal cucurbitaceæ. \ pcp//PCP refers to probably cyclidine proofs. It is precipitously illogical in many places, but research has shown that PCP is, surprisingly, No Problem. \ diet//People go on diets to loose weight instead of gaining. It
19:28:50 <zzo38> Maybe to you is not useful, but to me is useful the virtual table interface. If your program uses SQLite, then it also includes executing SQL codes, so if you want to allow embedding scripting codes that the user can enter, you can allow user to enter SQL codes even if you do not implement another programming language. Virtual tables is one way allowing to be used in this way.
19:29:13 <HackEgo> 1/1:973) <oerjan> `quote 1000
19:29:27 <HackEgo> People go on diets to loose weight instead of gaining. It gives them a consistant diet.
19:30:25 <wob_jonas> zzo38: that's true, if you want to run sql queries chosen by an untrusted user, then you could use sqlite to implement that
19:31:14 <wob_jonas> but even then I imagine it's sometimes easier and better to just copy all the data to an sqlite table than to build a new virtual table interface to access it
19:31:35 <wob_jonas> (but even write access can be done that way, with triggers)
19:32:13 <wob_jonas> zzo38: do you actually have such an application, or are you planing one?
19:32:40 <zzo38> You can do that whether the user is trusted or untrusted (for untrusted input, there is a authorizer callback).
19:33:30 <wob_jonas> If you've met my users, you wouldn't trust me either
19:34:25 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Neither so far, but if it is an extension then you can use them in the sqlite3 command shell too.
19:35:41 <wob_jonas> And I don't think the authorizer callback is enough for limiting queries by untrusted users. In particular, it's not easy to control how much disk space temporary files can take up.
19:36:40 <zzo38> Yes, but there is also the sqlite3_limit() function.
19:37:31 <zzo38> (And if that is still not enough, you can write a VFS shim to limit disk space and write memory allocation routines to limit memory usage.)
19:37:36 <wob_jonas> There is a limit, but it limits the size per file, not the total size of temporary files, and I'm not even sure it applies to all files or just some.
19:38:02 <wob_jonas> Yes, you can do all that stuff, I said it's not easy.
19:39:25 <zzo38> I do trust the user if the program is local and not setuid (although this does not necessarily mean an input file is trusted); for programs that you enter input remotely, or if setuid is in use, then the user is not to be trusted.
19:49:51 <zzo38> I thought of using SQLite to store level and solution files for Free Hero Mesh, although I thought it simpler to just use a Hamster archive instead. This does mean the entire file must be rewritten if the size of any lump changes, but Hero Mesh already does this anyways.
19:52:22 <zzo38> Do you like Free Hero Mesh?
19:54:17 <wob_jonas> I don't know Hero Mesh or Free Hero Mesh.
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20:03:02 <wob_jonas> Duck jumping is a duck type special move big Mario can use in most Super Mario games.
20:09:40 <zzo38> Some things I will intend doing differently in Free Hero Mesh. In Hero Mesh, if you right click on any tile it displays a description (but not the variables) of only the topmost object at that location. I intend you can view a list of the objects at any location, including the values of any variables, so that there is no hidden information. Variables are not displayed if the class has the Quiz flag set though.
20:10:26 <zzo38> (The Quiz flag is a new flag in Free Hero Mesh. The converter gives this flag to classes named "Quiz". The user configuration file can override the Quiz flag of classes.)
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20:11:38 <zzo38> I can use smallxrm (which I wrote) for user configuration.
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20:13:09 <zzo38> Do you like smallxrm?
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20:14:08 <wob_jonas> I don't know. Do you have a link for that?
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20:18:28 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/prog/smallxrm.zip
20:18:29 <esowiki> [[Kangaroo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54285&oldid=46011 * B jonas * (+26)
20:19:32 <wob_jonas> ah, that X resource manager reimplementation. you mentioned that, yes.
20:20:47 <esowiki> [[The Amnesiac From Minsk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54286&oldid=53893 * B jonas * (+26)
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20:35:27 <zzo38> I don't know your opinions about the specifics of them though
20:36:52 <wob_jonas> I don't really use x resources directly, so I don't much care
20:37:37 <wob_jonas> In particular, I control urxvt with command-line option, and that program allows setting any or almost any option with either an X resource or a command-line option, with both documented
20:38:36 <wob_jonas> I used to use X resources to set some things for xterm, because it didn't have equivalent command-line options for some of them, but that was before I started using urxvt, and urxvt is better in almost every way, so I have no reason to go back to xterm.
20:39:05 <wob_jonas> There might have been one or two other programs for which I set an X resource, but nothing really significant.
20:39:28 <wob_jonas> As far as I know, most new programs don't care much about X resources. It's an old style thing.
20:40:09 <wob_jonas> I think old programs used X resources because the old motif-like toolkits read them transparently, so the programs could use it to customize the look and feel of its controls without doing much of anything.
20:40:29 <wob_jonas> But newer toolkits don't do that anymore.
20:41:03 <wob_jonas> zzo38: is there some particular reason why you use xterm over urxvt, or have you just not changed because xterm is good enough?
20:41:16 <zzo38> Because xterm is better.
20:42:11 <wob_jonas> I had some serious visual glitches with xterm way back, which was the main reason why I changed, although that might have been fixed in later versions or disappeared as video drivers improved. But now I like urxvt better, and see no reason to go back to xterm from it.
20:42:27 <wob_jonas> I can still use xterm as a fallback, like as a temporary terminal while I install urxvt.
20:43:08 <wob_jonas> zzo38: better how in particular? I'm curious what matters for you in particualr
20:45:03 <zzo38> It supports bitmap fonts and non-Unicode text.
20:45:34 <zzo38> (As well as Xaw scrollbars, which unfortunately most modern programs do not use)
20:45:39 <wob_jonas> zzo38: urxvt supports bitmap fonts. X bitmap fonts through the X calls.
20:46:13 <wob_jonas> I use urxvt with bitmap fonts in factr
20:47:08 <wob_jonas> In particular, this is one of the settings I pass to urxvt to set the font: -fn "x:-*-fecupboard-medium-r-*-*-20-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1,x:-*-terminus-bold-r-*-*-20-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1"
20:47:43 <wob_jonas> this sets my bitmap font (listed in wisdom/font ) as the primary font, provided you have it installed to where X can see it
20:48:31 <zzo38> Still one thing it does not support is non-Unicode characters that have no Unicode equivalent, it seems; this should be fixed.
20:48:54 <zzo38> (I may eventually try to write my own terminal emulator, which can fix these problems, too)
20:49:35 <wob_jonas> zzo38: do you mean non-unicode characters that have a direct representation in the encoding you use for terminal io?
20:49:46 <wob_jonas> or do you access such characters in some other way?
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20:50:13 <zzo38> They are accessed by switching the character set
20:51:02 <zzo38> (There are also characters that do have a Unicode version, although the Unicode version has the wrong width.)
20:51:11 <wob_jonas> ok. that's a reasonable argument, but it doesn't affect me, because all the characters in other encodings I care about are accessible mapped through unicode.
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20:54:11 <wob_jonas> In particular, all characters in the DEC line drawing character set are mapped into unicode (there's a table in urxvt's source code), and all characters in the byte encodings I've used have a mapping into unicode, and in both cases this mapping is how my fecupboard20 font identifies the character.
20:54:41 <zzo38> Yes, the "-iso10646-1" indicates that it identifies the character in that way, of course.
20:57:33 <wob_jonas> And my font has all the characters from the DEC line drawing character set, and all the characters from the byte encodings I've used.
20:57:44 <wob_jonas> It does lack some other useful unicode characters though.
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20:57:58 <wob_jonas> oren's bitmap font is much more exhaustive
20:58:08 <wob_jonas> there are lots of characters I should add some day
21:02:57 <zzo38> I would make the terminal emulator with bitmap fonts only, all commands from DEC VT terminals, some of the xterm commands, Xaw-like scrollbars, and not much else. If possible, a BREAK signal can be emulated too (by reading the termios settings when BREAK is pushed to determine what to do).
21:04:41 <wob_jonas> zzo38: you can compile urxvt to support bitmap fonts only. the X bitmap font support is mandatory; and there's a configure switch for whether you want to support rendering fonts through xft (which would alone let you use x bitmap fonts too incidentally, but also lets you do much more than that).
21:04:48 <zzo38> We don't need background pictures (only Sixel pictures are supported, or a program can read the environment variable with the window ID and draw pictures that way), hyperlinks, etc
21:05:34 <wob_jonas> I don't know about "all commands from DEC VT terminals" because there are too many such terminals to be able to follow, but urxvt certainly supports many of those commands. It also supports "some of the xterm commands", including some xterm-specific ones, but not all of them.
21:07:09 <wob_jonas> I don't know about Xaw-like scrollbars. Urxvt has optional support for three different types of scrollbars (many of these features have a compile-time switch), but I just disable the scrollbar so I don't care.
21:08:11 <wob_jonas> I don't know if the break signal is supported, but if it weren't yet supported, it wouldn't be too hard to add. It's like one ioctl call to send a break signal to a virtual terminal anyway. Maybe more if you want it to work on all BSDs.
21:10:15 <wob_jonas> Ah, there's even a possibly portable wrapper function over that ioctl call: tcsendbreak.
21:11:14 <wob_jonas> I don't think you have to read the termios settings, because you're on the master side of the terminal, so the virtual terminal layer handles that. You just have to tell the master virtual terminal to send the break using that function (or the ioctl) and it will do whatever it has to.
21:11:48 <wob_jonas> Of course, a break is a feature that's more useful for a physical terminal line than a virtual terminal, but whatever.
21:13:06 <zzo38> I thought someone told me that virtual terminals don't support break.
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21:17:31 <wob_jonas> I dunno. The virtual terminal interfaces at the kernel and libc level are very similar to the physical terminal interfaces, so the ability should be there. But I don't think I've tested that. You'll have to test on each OS if you want to be sure.
21:22:57 <zzo38> I doubt such a terminal emulator will be important on operating systems other than Linux and BSD, and possibly Hurd.
21:24:03 <wob_jonas> Terminal emulators are useful on win32, with msys or cygwin or other such systems, but urxvt in particular doesn't work in those.
21:26:04 <zzo38> If you are using Windows 10 then you might be able to run it in Linux mode (if you install a Windows-based X server), but I don't know as I have not used Windows 10
21:27:02 <wob_jonas> It seems tcsendbreak (of glibc) isn't supported on openbsd or freebsd. But linux and openbsd and freebsd have the TIOCSBRK/TIOCCBRK ioctl pair.
21:27:28 <wob_jonas> tcsendbreak is standardized by posix though, so the bsd libcs might eventually grow one
21:28:34 <zzo38> If necessary, #if and #ifdef can be used to deal with stuff that is different on different operating systems.
21:34:51 <wob_jonas> POSIX describes the consequences of a break depending on the termios at http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/basedefs/V1_chap11.html (free registration required) and I don't see why that wouldn't apply for a pseudo-terminal
21:35:15 <wob_jonas> the openbsd manuals also specifically say that the pseudo-terminal tries to behave similar to a real terminal
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22:08:48 <zzo38> The man page for tcsendbreak() says "If the terminal is not using asynchronous serial data transmission, tcsendbreak() returns without taking any action."
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22:09:58 <zzo38> It also requires a duration, which is not applicable for pseudo-terminals.
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22:10:21 <wob_jonas> It doesn't require a duration. Normally you call it with 0 as the duration parameter.
22:10:55 <wob_jonas> It *allows* a duration, because sometimes people have specific physical devices that care, and the kernel can control the duration easily.
22:11:07 <zzo38> Yes, but it still has a duration even if you specify zero (it says 0.25 to 0.5 seconds if zero is specified).
22:11:47 <zzo38> That is why I suggested using termios and then to check the IGNBRK, BRKINT, and PARMRK flags, and then the terminal emulator can perform the appropriate operation due to what they are set to.
22:13:50 <wob_jonas> Maybe. But I think you should test first if you can send a break directly.
22:17:31 <zzo38> Another reason to read termios settings is to determine how to respond to DECREQTPARM, although an alternative would be to use X resource settings instead. If connecting to a remote server, you may wish to change the report of the baud rate in case it might choose to result a less fancy display at lower baud rates.
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05:57:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54287 * Oerjan * (+1891) Full Minsky machine
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09:13:19 <variable> time to design something based on a merkle tree
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12:05:58 <myname> while on our operating system course, two students and i thought about making IPC in our OS via blockchain, because why the fuck not
12:08:24 <myname> i am quite unsure wether brainchain or blockfuck would be a better name for a blockchained brainfuck
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13:08:44 <alercah> myname: you may be interested in https://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
13:10:12 <myname> well, that's why i'm here
13:11:02 <alercah> Oh, I thought this was a different channel.
13:21:23 <myname> still looking for ideas for a master thesis, though
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16:02:27 <zzo38> I made a repository of the files for Free Hero Mesh so far it is http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/heromesh.ui/dir?ci=tip It is not yet completed, but is there in case someone may wish to make comments/complaints of it please.
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19:00:04 <ais523> b_jonas: so I think we can't use Wild Cantor as there's no way to bring its toughness up to 3 without changing its creature type (the problem is that in order to trigger a Hungry Lynx to put +1/+1 counters on it, we'd need to sacrifice another creature, but we only have one Wild Cantor and we can't make a token of it because the opponent could just sacrifie the token)
19:00:25 <ais523> however there are other similar creatures with higher toughness, e.g. Composite Golem, which we can use instead
19:00:28 <ais523> `card-by-name Composite Golem
19:00:29 <HackEgo> Composite Golem \ 6 \ Artifact Creature -- Golem \ 4/4 \ Sacrifice Composite Golem: Add {W}{U}{B}{R}{G} to your mana pool. \ 5DN-U, 10E-U
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19:03:17 <wob_jonas> ais523: that makes sense (replace Wild Cantor with larger toughness creature)
19:03:20 <ais523> 9 cards: CREATURE/TRIBAL: Hungry Lynx, Rotlung Reanimator, Noxious Ghoul, (Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite), Composite Golem, Shields of Velis Vel, INSTANT: Artificial Evolution, SORCERY: Fractured Identity, Coax from the Blind Eternities
19:03:51 <ais523> and the change shouldn't affect anything else other than it now doesn't die to -2/-2 effects
19:04:00 <ais523> (which we need to kill the token that's serving as the clock)
19:05:28 <ais523> actually, noxious ghoul is an etb trigger, not death trigger, so in theory we could trigger it with a different creature to get the +1/+1 counters on the Cantor, but just switching to something with ≥3 toughness is so much simpler
19:05:34 <wob_jonas> and yes, Composite Golem is a bit unusual. I've seen that creature because it's in tenth ed, but I wouldn't have been able to list any mana-producing creature with toughness over 2, because they're impractical
19:06:14 <wob_jonas> (Except Joraga Treespeaker, but that doesn't work)
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19:06:55 <wob_jonas> yes, but that doesn't help, you wanted a mana ability so you can start the loop while a split second spell is on the stack
19:06:59 <ais523> `card-by-name carven caryatid
19:07:01 <HackEgo> Carven Caryatid \ 1GG \ Creature -- Spirit \ 2/5 \ Defender (This creature can't attack.) \ When Carven Caryatid enters the battlefield, draw a card. \ RAV-U
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19:07:17 <ais523> there was some well-known expensive mana elf with high toughness
19:07:23 <ais523> but it doesn't sacrifice, like the Golem does
19:07:36 <wob_jonas> I know several with 2 toughness, they just don't get much play
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19:09:53 <ais523> I haven't had any ideas for saving a further card from the combo
19:10:58 <wob_jonas> that doesn't bother me as much as that we still don't know if there's a small enough Amnesiac machine for turing-completeness
19:11:17 <wob_jonas> there probably is, but actually finding one will be hard
19:11:38 <wob_jonas> just an encoding of the Collatz problem or similar would probably fit
19:12:09 <wob_jonas> and that's what you'd want in the tournament setting, because it's simpler than explaining ten levels of reduction for why your crazy machine is Turing-complete
19:12:26 <wob_jonas> but I'd like a Turing-completeness proof for outside the tournament setting
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19:12:59 <wob_jonas> and I think if you try to transform that fractran machine with the easy reductions, it will get too large
19:14:17 <ais523> Collatz actually doesn't work
19:14:23 <ais523> you can't brute-force it
19:14:33 <ais523> because it'd lead to an infinite loop whether the result is true or false
19:14:52 <ais523> I'm currently favouring the Lychrel conjecture (probably in base 3 rather than base 10)
19:14:55 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, it's not Sigma-1. but you can still make a version that nobody can answer
19:15:21 <ais523> because unlike with the Collatz conjecture (where every number that's been checked is known to not be a counterexample)
19:15:52 <ais523> the Lychrel conjecture has small numbers that are believed to be counterexamples (196 in base 10; 10201₃ = 100₁₀ in base 10)
19:15:59 <ais523> *the Lychrel conjecture has small numbers that are believed to be counterexamples (196 in base 10; 10201₃ = 100₁₀ in base 3)
19:16:13 <ais523> and Minsky machines are actually really good at reversing the digits in numbers
19:17:30 <wob_jonas> hmm no.. that doesn't work. I was wondering if Basal Sliver worked, to give another creature a sacrifice mana ability, since we already have other large creatures. but it doesn't work because, like you say, the opponent could sacrifice a creature then.
19:18:22 <ais523> it's really hard to prevent your opponent activating mana abilities
19:19:42 <wob_jonas> and we need specifically a sacrificing one, on a creature or tribal, or else a bigger combo that results in sacrifice, and those are much fewer. we can't just use Manaweft Sliver or Paradise Mantle
19:20:50 <wob_jonas> let me look up this Lychrel conjecture
19:22:25 <wob_jonas> ais523: ok, but do you have evidence that in base 3 it's a hard problem?
19:22:40 <ais523> no, but there is evidence that it's a problem that's both known and unsolved
19:22:58 <ais523> it doesn't need to be hard, so much as something that mathematicians have failed to solve
19:23:05 <wob_jonas> and would it encode smaller than the Goldbach conjecture?
19:26:36 <ais523> a primality tester is going to be quite large
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19:28:25 <oerjan> ais523: since y'all don't seem to have noticed yet, let me point at my simplified direct-from-minsky construction on the wiki.
19:30:29 <wob_jonas> oerjan: is it just simplified, or does it provide a more golfed output? I've read ais's simple Minsky to Amnesiac and Amnesiac to Waterfall constructions, and he was right, they are not only simple but provide a small enough output, especially if you remove useless variables
19:31:15 <wob_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:The_Waterfall_Model ?
19:32:36 <ais523> it is simpler than the construction that goes via TAFM, though
19:32:56 <ais523> because it scales linearly off the number of decrements rather than quadratically off the number of increments
19:33:54 <wob_jonas> I think going directly to TAFM helps if you have actions that result in large chains of increments on multiple variables
19:34:27 <wob_jonas> but even from Minsky machines, that's sort of an optimziation step, because the Minsky doesn't directly store such a chain
19:34:47 <wob_jonas> And this is a real world issue, because such chains are how a Minsky machine can copy a value
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19:38:12 <oerjan> the construction _sort_ of assumes all large chains of unconditionals can be collapsed by inlining if you want.
19:38:46 <oerjan> because addition is really a single step, not just increment.
19:39:34 <oerjan> oh and you can do several in parallel.
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19:41:49 <oerjan> as for proving TC-ness with a small number of clocks, i think BCT shouldn't be too large if you store the program as a hardcoded binary or ternary number.
19:42:09 <ais523> a queue is annoyingly hard to do in a minsky machine
19:42:15 <ais523> I think you'd need the two-stacks construction
19:43:15 <oerjan> indeed, which made we wonder: is BCT still TC if you use two stacks instead of the data queue, and just swap them when they run out?
19:43:41 <oerjan> (the program is not a problem because you can just reinstate the hardcoded constant)
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19:46:31 <wob_jonas> in Waterfall, how cheaply can you divide with a literal and get both the reminder and the divisor
19:46:41 <wob_jonas> because that's what you need for a stack
19:47:25 <ais523> you can destructively replace a clock with a divmod-by-constant using a clock to store remainder, a clock to store the quotient, a clock for control, and the original
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19:48:09 <ais523> although I think the remainder clock ends up inverted (i.e. it contains divisor-remainder, not the remainder directly)
19:48:17 <wob_jonas> I don't mind two (or more) stacks, I think that's more natural than a tape where you can't cut and paste elements in the middle. People just started using a tape because it corresponds much more to realistic hardware, and this was almost always true, the sole exception being mercury delay lines
19:49:13 <ais523> however you need both a multiply and a divide to make a stack work
19:49:34 <ais523> meaning that you'll probably need to store it in two clocks (which always have almost the same value) rather than one, allowing you to customize what happens when it hits zero
19:49:56 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but I want division by constant not only for stacks, but also for these number theoretic problems like the Lychrel conjecture
19:50:22 <wob_jonas> or for decoding a large constant that we put in the starting state
19:50:34 <wob_jonas> like, you know, those big constants in quines
19:51:16 <ais523> divmod isn't really too hard, you have a "slow clock" that resets to the divisor whenever it hits 0, and adds 1 to the quotient each time it does so
19:51:32 <ais523> and also keeps a copy of its own value in another clock, that stores the remainder
19:51:46 <ais523> then when the value you're divmodding hits 0, you're done
19:51:56 <wob_jonas> and as for multiplication, I think multiplication by a *compile-time constant* is quite cheap in Waterfall
19:52:02 <ais523> (the slow clock that's controlling the process also bumps all the clocks you aren't using)
19:52:10 <ais523> (so that their value stays approximately constant)
19:53:28 <ais523> right, a clock can do that for itself, so you just need a clock to serve as the output
19:53:42 <ais523> (also remembering that if you want to be able to use one clock for multiple purposes, you need to duplicate it)
19:54:07 <ais523> actually, no it can't, I'm confused
19:54:10 <ais523> you need an extra control clock
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20:27:54 <wob_jonas> in M:tG, why are there no parenthesis in the text boxof this token-thingy printed by WotC: https://media.wizards.com/2018/a25/en_ak0QBpuIOt.png
20:29:41 <esowiki> [[Wierd Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54288&oldid=54270 * Singingbanana * (+1)
20:30:15 <esowiki> [[Wierd Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54289&oldid=54288 * Singingbanana * (+1)
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20:54:46 <esowiki> [[Wierd Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54290&oldid=54289 * Singingbanana * (+0)
20:57:43 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54291&oldid=54272 * Singingbanana * (+0)
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21:42:56 <\oren\_> I think there is some sort of unwritten rule that says fake milk like almond and stuff can't come in bags
21:59:14 <wob_jonas> \oren\: huh what? and what does "bags" mean?
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22:05:24 <fungot> boily: neil fnord ( a b): ' u' are the same and act the same in scsh? or did it all himself
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22:13:24 <HackEgo> wisdom/ wisdom/! wisdom/* wisdom/1 wisdom/7 wisdom/8 wisdom/9 wisdom/? wisdom/@ wisdom/\ wisdom/^ wisdom/` wisdom/a wisdom/b wisdom/c wisdom/d wisdom/e wisdom/i wisdom/k wisdom/l wisdom/o wisdom/p wisdom/q wisdom/s wisdom/w wisdom/y
22:14:04 <HackEgo> wisdom/ wisdom/! wisdom/* wisdom/1 wisdom/7 wisdom/8 wisdom/9 wisdom/? wisdom/@ wisdom/\ wisdom/^ wisdom/` wisdom/a wisdom/b wisdom/c wisdom/d wisdom/e wisdom/i wisdom/k wisdom/l wisdom/o wisdom/p wisdom/q wisdom/s wisdom/w wisdom/y$
22:14:36 <HackEgo> head: error reading 'wisdom/': Is a directory \ ==> wisdom/ <==
22:14:57 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try listing it in private instead.
22:15:10 <HackEgo> \ ! \ #esoteric \ #esoteric-blah \ #programming \ * \ ./ \ ../ \ .doorstop \ 1 \ 1*1 \ 10 \ 1337 \ 21 \ 2600 \ 323 \ 42 \ 4chan \ 4rn4 \ 5318008 \ 6 random numbers \ 7 \ 8/ \ 9 \ =@ccc \ ? \ ?? \ @ \ @messages-loud \ XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR \ \ \ \oren\ \ ^ \ _46bit \ _̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞
22:15:20 <HackEgo> drwxr-xr-x 8 5000 0 40960 Mar 2 03:42 wisdom/
22:15:32 <HackEgo> drwxr-xr-x 8 5000 0 40960 Mar 2 03:42 wisdom/
22:15:40 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 20 Oct 28 2016 wisdom/
22:15:53 <HackEgo> ! is a syntax used in Haskell and Prolog for solving evaluation order problems.
22:16:06 <HackEgo> Twinkle, twinkle, little star!
22:16:11 <HackEgo> The 1 is just for disambiguation.
22:16:16 <HackEgo> 7 is one third of the half of the answer. Also a somewhat popular reformed Borg drone.
22:16:45 <HackEgo> @ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour.
22:16:46 <HackEgo> \ was initially popular as a replacement for the solidus, but inevitably there was a backslash.
22:16:47 <HackEgo> ^ (also notated by ⊕ or ⊻) is the exclusive-or operator; ∧ (also notated by /\ or &) is the and (conjunction) operator; ^ (also notated by ↑ or ** or ⋆) is the power operator.
22:16:50 <HackEgo> ` is the prefix to greatness.
22:17:13 <HackEgo> A is a village in Norway. The BBC invented it by not understanding things on top of letters.
22:17:48 <wob_jonas> `1 for w in b c d e i k l o p q s w y; do \? "$w"; done
22:17:56 <HackEgo> 1/4:B is _not_ a village in Norway, unless you're even worse than the BBC and drop strange letters altogether. \ C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault \ D is a letter in the alphabet! It's also the name of a programming language. \ e is a freenode admin. e is not known to be an Agora player. \ I SIGNIFICAT NVMERVM VNVM \ K
22:18:28 <HackEgo> 9176:2016-10-05 <oerjän> slwd e//s/E/e/ \ 9170:2016-10-05 <oerjän> slwd e//s/$/. E is not known to be an Agora player./ \ 9166:2016-10-05 <moonythedwar̈f> learn e is a freenode admin \ 4234:2013-12-26 <FreeFul̈l> rm -rf wisdom/e \ 3958:2013-10-30 <FireFl̈y> mkdir wisdom/e; ln -s wisdom/e/e wisdom/e; echo f >wisdom/e/f
22:18:33 <HackEgo> 2/4: K K Ken \ L is far too short to be a village in Wales. \ o is a popular comedy adventure fantasy webcomic. It's about a group of adventurers, heroes or warriors (whatever you want to call them) called the Order of the Stick, as they go about their adventures with minimal competence or knowledge of what they are doing, and eventually sort of st
22:19:01 <HackEgo> 3/4:umble into a plan by an undead sorcerer to conquer the world, essentially, and they're out to stop him and conquer their personal problems at the same time. Hopefully not in that order, so they get their personal problems taken care of before the final battle. And it's a comedy. \ P is the complexity class of Problems. They can be solved by red
22:19:08 <HackEgo> 4/4:uction to NP. \ Q is a function Q : Vowel -> Phon that accepts a vowel V as its argument and yields [k] concatenated with the semivowel form of V \ Esses are confusing. \ A w is everything a cow isn't. \ Y is a commune in France. There's nothing funny about this.
22:21:09 <wob_jonas> There are SIX villages in Norway called Å?
22:24:27 <wob_jonas> `learn A is one of seven villages in Norway. The BBC invented them by not understanding things on top of letters.
22:24:29 <HackEgo> Relearned 'i': A is one of seven villages in Norway. The BBC invented them by not understanding things on top of letters.
22:24:49 <wob_jonas> `slashlearn A//A is one of seven villages in Norway. The BBC invented them by not understanding things on top of letters.
22:24:52 <HackEgo> Relearned 'a': A is one of seven villages in Norway. The BBC invented them by not understanding things on top of letters.
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23:07:00 <HackEgo> b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek.
23:07:26 <boily> something about not exploding the sun?
23:07:30 <HackEgo> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft.
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23:18:23 <boily> it is made of June?
23:35:35 <alercah> boily: when is montriichi?
23:37:02 <boily> hellorcah! September, either 2nd or 3rd weekend. not definitive, but on the verge of.
23:37:26 <boily> also, riichester was nice! 26th place, but fun tournament!
23:41:47 <shachaf> https://twitter.com/edwinbrady/status/970796084544069633
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00:06:08 <wob_jonas> Ah I see! oerjan: yes, your construction works. you inline all the increase effects, and you multiply values with 2 so that there are no ties
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00:13:52 <oerjan> i also think my idea of replacing queues with pairs of stacks (but only swapping the pair, not a full reversal) works
00:14:10 <oerjan> i think i'm going to call it "pendulum tag"
00:14:32 <oerjan> because the pair of stacks is used in a pendulum-like manner.
00:15:11 <oerjan> essentially, it is possible to push the reversal of a stack into the BCT program.
00:15:23 <oerjan> by a mechanical transformation.
00:15:45 <oerjan> thus emulating a queue, but without the implementing language needing to care.
00:16:38 <oerjan> (i think you can also use a "pendulum" for the program, if you wish to avoid hard-coding it in the triggers.)
00:17:10 <wob_jonas> I don't understand what you're talking about here. What are you swapping and why?
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00:18:36 <oerjan> in BCT, you have a data queue. i propose replacing it by two stacks, such that one is read and popped, the other is written to. when the reading stack is empty, they are swapped, but the stack is _not_ reversed, so it's not a full queue implementation, but easier.
00:19:35 <oerjan> and thus it should require fewer waterclocks to emulate.
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00:20:27 <wob_jonas> oerjan: I don't see how that would work. how does it simulate a proper queue if it's not reversed?
00:20:29 <oerjan> hm ais523 seems idle. i assumed you were talking to him.
00:20:52 <oerjan> wob_jonas: you can do a mechanical transformation of the BCT program, so _it_ does the reversal.
00:21:07 <ais523> oerjan: well I'm responding to pings at least
00:21:50 <oerjan> this won't help with making a small demonstration example, of course, i'm more thinking about minimizing waterclocks for TC-ness.
00:22:11 <ais523> well the best minimization is probably to write an interpreter
00:22:35 <ais523> but I'm not getting very far with working out what sort of language would be best to interpret
00:22:38 <oerjan> yes, i just considered tweaking BCT so it was easier to implement.
00:22:40 <ais523> none of the usual suspects really work
00:23:01 <ais523> so I suspect the best option is actually something weird that might not even be on the wiki yet
00:23:47 <ais523> I guess Fractran isn't so ridiculous but I think we can do better
00:24:00 <wob_jonas> ais523: for the TC too, this will be one of those stupid many-step reductions again, with ten layers of emulation and four levels of exponential until you get to a sane model
00:24:26 <ais523> yes, but I like those :-)
00:24:32 <ais523> also normally some of the exponential cancels out
00:24:39 <oerjan> ais523: so you consider BCT except with two stacks for data still too complicated?
00:24:45 <ais523> I think I might have got the 2,3 machine down to just exponential, eventually? it was double exponential at worse
00:25:00 <oerjan> (actually, CT, you probably don't want to decode 10 and 11 in two steps)
00:25:20 <ais523> oerjan: well you need two for data, one for the program, and because reading a waterclock zeroes it you need to keep copying the current value of the program back and forth to remember where you are in it
00:25:27 <wob_jonas> ais523: more seriously, I think we have to interpret something with a bounded number of different instructions, and with the instructions of the program being ran in an implicit while loop, which probably means interpreting say a Minsky-like machine with a fixed number of stacks, but no goto instructions, only some other control structure
00:25:59 <ais523> perhaps some sort of TC Deadfish variant?
00:26:06 <wob_jonas> wait, that reminds me of something
00:26:16 <ais523> (I have in fact been trying to find a simple TC Deadfish-alike, no luck yet though)
00:26:39 <wob_jonas> ais523: http://www.de.ioccc.org/years-spoiler.html#1992_buzzard.1
00:26:41 <ais523> the general structure of "one number and some commands that manipulate it" is appealing though
00:26:46 <wob_jonas> we don't want exactly that language, but somethign close
00:27:36 <wob_jonas> the language it uses is an implicit while loop, and all instructions are one of a=b; a+=b; a-=b; a*=b; a/=b; where a and b are chosen from say fifteen registers, and these operate on signed integers
00:28:16 <wob_jonas> we might not want to hardcode even addition and subtraction if we don't have to
00:29:22 <wob_jonas> the point is, I definitely want an instruction stream with fixed-size instructions, and that means no unbounded amount of labels or open addressing of instructions,
00:30:12 <wob_jonas> we could have a program that has two state registers, has instructions for incrementing or zeroing a state register, and have all the other instructions (which are like simple minsky-likes) execute only if the two state registers are equal
00:30:40 <ais523> that seems like there's not much you can do while they're nonequal
00:30:55 <ais523> I assume you use the difference between them as a PC and the value as data?
00:31:00 <wob_jonas> the program can encode states that way, with the first state register tracking the state of the state machine it simulates, and the second state register tells what instruction of the state machine you're encoding now
00:31:59 <wob_jonas> one of them is the PC of the simulated program flow, the other is the address of the instructions from the original program
00:32:54 <ais523> oh, and you have further values for the RAM
00:32:58 <wob_jonas> so our Waterfall program cycles through the instructions of the intermediate program, but apart from the instructions that increment the second state register, the only instructions executed are the ones corresponding to the current state of the simulated program
00:33:13 <wob_jonas> that means even the instructions incrementing or zeroing the first state register have to be conditional
00:33:25 <wob_jonas> only the instructions incrementing the second state registers are unconditional
00:33:55 <wob_jonas> ais523: sort of, but instead of a random-addressable anything, I'm thinking of more like a fixed number of registers, each storing a natural number
00:34:37 <wob_jonas> so the original language we're compiling programs from is something similar to a Minsky with a bounded number of registers
00:35:33 <wob_jonas> if we only want TC, and don't care about the slowdown, we can get away with exactly two registers and proper minsky.
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00:38:47 <wob_jonas> that means the language we interpret would need to have the following instructions: [0] L=0; (appears exactly once), [1] L++; [2] if(L==P) P=0; [3] if(L==P) P++; [4] if(L==P) A++; [5] if(L==P) B++; [6] if(L==P&&A) A--; [7] if(L==P&&B) B--; [8] if(L==P&&A) P++; [9] if(L==P&&B) P++;
00:39:18 <oerjan> how in the world is this going to get simpler than BCT...
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00:39:34 <wob_jonas> If you want exactly those, then for every conditional of the original Minsky, the next state for nonzero has to be later than the next state for zero, but we can use unconditional gotos to work that around.
00:39:49 <wob_jonas> oerjan: I'm not saying it will be, I just don't understand how BCT works.
00:40:04 <wob_jonas> mind you, I also don't understand how two-register Minsky works, but that's another problem.
00:40:15 <ais523> wob_jonas: do you understand how n-register Minsky works?
00:40:42 <ais523> the basic idea of two-register Minsky is that you encode the value of n registers using prime powers
00:40:56 <ais523> 2 to the power of the first register, times 3 to the power of the second register, times 5 to the power of the third register, and so on
00:41:30 <ais523> then you can increment any of the simulated registers via multiplication, decrement via divmod (if the modulus isn't 0 you tried to decrement 0 so you put the register back as it was and go into an alternative state)
00:41:44 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, you can simulate a multi-stack machine with an n-register minsky, where n is a few more than the stacks. you can get that down to three registers of minsky simulating a two stack machine or something. and yes, I've read the proof for reducing that to two-counter Minsky,
00:41:46 <ais523> the reason two registers are required is because that's the minimum for multiply and for divmod
00:42:47 <wob_jonas> but that proof is like magic, and I think I just refused to think about it because of the extra level of exponential involved, and I thought one would never want to simplify a machine to two registers from three at that high a cost
00:43:03 <wob_jonas> but now here I am, wanting to prove TC-ness of M:tG, and now I know that yes, you might want to do exactly that
00:44:53 <ais523> well, I was really interested to see commands being removed from Underload
00:44:59 <ais523> even though each removal (other than ~) makes it much slower
00:45:32 <wob_jonas> ais523: so in the universal Minsky program that we compile to Waterfall, what's the best way to simulate the L and P registers? do we want to store them separately and somehow compare them; or do we want to store max(0,L-P) and max(0,P-L) in two registers, since we can get modify the model to use decreases instead of zeroing?
00:48:06 <wob_jonas> Hmm... maybe it's better to do some swappy thing
00:48:11 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if there's a good way to store a command-based program
00:48:22 <oerjan> ais523: the ! removal is probably not too slow given a sensible interpreter, it just leaks memory.
00:48:23 <ais523> maybe we can have multiple stacks, so that the smallest stack indicates the first command of the program
00:48:40 <ais523> but after it runs the next-smallest stack will be the second command, and this is infinitely customizable
00:48:58 <ais523> oerjan: yes, it's probably only a constant factor in an interpreter for which ~ doesn't scale on the size of the top stack element
00:50:12 <wob_jonas> Let me modify the instructions to [0] L--; [1] L++; [2] if(L==P) P--; [3] if(L==P) P++; [4] if(L==P) A++; [5] if(L==P) { if (A) A--; else P++; } [6] swap(A,B);
00:50:50 <ais523> that's got to be more than you need, surely
00:51:16 <wob_jonas> where A and B are positive integers, and we actually only store the signed difference L-P
00:51:31 <ais523> also, I'm not sure your control flow graph works correctly
00:51:34 <wob_jonas> ais523: probably. oerjan says BCT is smaller, and I can believe that
00:51:46 <ais523> well, BCT only has three commands
00:51:51 <ais523> if (peek()) push(true)
00:51:55 <ais523> if (peek()) push(false)
00:52:04 <ais523> or, well, cyclic tag in general
00:52:11 <ais523> BCT is just a concrete syntax for them
00:52:29 <ais523> and the push/pop/peek here are for a queue, i.e. peek and pop read from one end but push pushes onto the other
00:53:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: and the BCT program is not self-modifying, and is executed in a for(;;) loop, right?
00:54:11 <ais523> there's a self-modifying version called Self BCT but I think it hasn't even been proven TC and is kind-of hard to work with
00:54:17 <ais523> so people use regular cyclic tag most of the time
00:54:28 <wob_jonas> and oerjan said some magical thing above about how to simulate the data queue
00:54:57 <ais523> it's not a perfect simulation, the hope was that the language would still be TC despite the semantics having changed
00:56:15 <wob_jonas> yes, I assumed he implied he already knew how to write programs for the modified language
00:56:39 <ais523> you can also look at https://esolangs.org/wiki/DownRight which is very similar to cyclic tag
00:56:45 <ais523> the two compible back and forth quite easily
00:56:52 <wob_jonas> Ok, all this definitely looks more hopeful now, in the sense that we'll be able to fit something like this into the 230 creature types
00:58:02 <ais523> oh, I don't think there was any question of that
00:58:25 <wob_jonas> There's no question that it can be done
00:58:27 <ais523> you might even be able to fit Malbolge into 230 (without using an intermediate interpreter)
00:58:31 <wob_jonas> the question is if it can be done easy enough that we can understand it
00:58:37 <ais523> the question is whether we can make it simple enough to memorise
00:58:44 <ais523> which is necessary for it to be legal to deploy during a game of M:tG
00:59:15 <wob_jonas> it's hard to memorize because it's not enough to know the interpreter, but get a useful program through all the intermediate compilation steps
00:59:19 <wob_jonas> you don't want to remember all that
00:59:26 <oerjan> indeed. an interpreter is not going to help getting a memorizable program.
00:59:39 <ais523> but there are two questions
00:59:59 <ais523> a) is it TC, b) can you deploy an undecidable-with-present-knowledge program in a real game
01:00:05 <ais523> a) requires an interp that's short enough to memorise
01:00:13 <ais523> b) a program that's short enough to memorise
01:00:55 <ais523> hmm, I think cpressey would like the philosophical problem of "in this language, only programs short enough to memorise are accepted"; I believe that would automatically make it sub-TC even though it can implement, say, BF interpreters
01:01:04 <ais523> as bundling input with them could make the program invalid!
01:01:06 <wob_jonas> for the tournament setting, I think the strategy is still to encode some of those difficult combinatoric number theory conjectures, one that Erdős or Terry Tao claims is hard, and encode it as directly to Waterfall as possible
01:01:22 <oerjan> ais523: i was assuming (b) would _not_ use the interpreter, and then (a) doesn't need to be memorizable.
01:01:35 <ais523> oerjan: the problem is "Is Magic: the Gathering Turing complete?"
01:01:42 <ais523> that implies you must be able to set up the gamestate within the game rules
01:01:50 <ais523> and Slow Play is one of those rules, and "no written notes" is anotehr
01:02:17 <wob_jonas> ais523: no written notes from before the match
01:02:43 <ais523> wob_jonas: OK, but we still have to memorise it to be able to write the notes during the match
01:02:58 <ais523> it'd be a good plan to write the notes during game 1 and deploy them during game 2, though
01:03:23 <ais523> (the purpose of setting the thing off during game 2 of a match is that it reduces the incentive for the opponent to concede)
01:04:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't think that's a good plan
01:06:44 <wob_jonas> ais523: this is a legacy combo deck. you have to go off in game 1, because in game 2 the opponent will sideboard in cards that counter the combo you use very easily, and you don't have much of a sideboard available to counter his deck, so he will win before you can go off.
01:06:44 <wob_jonas> you're sacrificing your sideboard for shenanigans, and it's a combo deck in first place, so fragile to sideboards.
01:07:17 <wob_jonas> also, goofing off with your notes during game 1 will get you a slow play warning
01:07:21 <ais523> well it's one of the slower combo decks in legacy, it trades speed for resiliency
01:07:30 <ais523> but I can see the argument for going for it in game 1
01:07:43 <ais523> the odds are that the opponent will concede before they even find out you aren't playing release the ants, though
01:08:00 <ais523> and will definitely concede once you've bounced their entire board and prevented them getting any more turns
01:08:12 <ais523> because they want to try to win games 2 and 3
01:08:27 <ais523> if you win game 1, that incentive doesn't exist any more
01:08:33 <wob_jonas> but I don't think remembering the details is the bottleneck anyway. being able to explain them quickly enough to the judge is the bottlneck. if you can clear that, then you can probably learn it well enough by heart.
01:09:54 <wob_jonas> so you're saying that we can rarely go off with the combo, so you want to skew the odds such that if you go off with the combo, the opponent is patient enough to hear the explanation of what you're doing after, rather than conceding
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01:10:37 <wob_jonas> people will concede when you go off with the combo and lock them down
01:12:35 <wob_jonas> I'm still thinking about the TC proof rather than the tournament setting though. I wonder if you could have four stacks, and simulate brainfuck using that, and I mean the bf variant where overflow and underflow are undefined behavior, and without io.
01:12:50 <wob_jonas> you'd need one more counter, to count the nesting
01:13:27 <wob_jonas> but that's probably not a very efficient thing to do
01:15:28 <wob_jonas> perhaps if you could encode the bf program in some more clever way
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01:43:03 <moony> wob_jonas, well, we could encode a BF program as a neural network
01:45:51 <moony> we could encode a BF program as java error messages.
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05:14:31 <shachaf> pikhq: so do you think this Lollar person is real
05:32:35 <oerjan> . o O ( sounds like e's laughing all the way to the bank )
05:46:50 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polarization_density#Anisotropic_dielectrics has the kind of polynomial I was talking about.
05:47:04 <shachaf> Or the kind of Taylor series I was talking about, rather.
05:48:28 <Cale> Ah, interesting.
05:49:05 <shachaf> Also do you know what an eigenvector of a bilinear form (represented as a matrix) means?
05:49:36 <Cale> Well, consider what the level sets of the bilinear form look like
05:49:54 <shachaf> I was reading about an optimization trick that used an eigenbasis of a quadratic form.
06:00:46 <Cale> The eigenvectors tell you the axes of the conic sections (or quadratic surfaces, etc. in higher dimensions) which are the level sets of quadratic form
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06:06:04 <Cale> The corresponding eigenvalues tell you something about the nature of the conic sections you have -- if they're both positive, you'll have an ellipse, if they're of differing sign, you'll have a hyperbola
06:06:34 <Cale> If they're both negative, you'll get ellipses as level sets again
06:07:41 <Cale> (but you might want to consider specifically the level set where q(v) = 1 to distinguish the negative case, where you'll just find no real solutions then)
06:08:46 <shachaf> Does this generalize to e.g. cubic forms?
06:10:01 <Cale> I expect you'd get something meaningful there, but I wouldn't quite have such good words to talk about it :)
06:10:30 <Cale> It generalises to higher dimensions nicely though
06:11:42 <Cale> (you can distinguish whether you have an ellipsoid or one- or two-sheeted hyperboloid, or paraboloid using the eigenvalues)
06:12:16 <Cale> (in three dimensions of course)
06:12:58 <shachaf> Sure, but I want to escape the matrix representation.
06:13:26 <shachaf> Also I've been trying to figure out how to think about tensor contraction and trace.
06:13:56 <shachaf> Tensor contraction is kind of like function application. Or like the cut rule.
06:14:32 <shachaf> I found out that trace is the unique (up to scalar multiplication) linear operator on matrices such that tr(AB) = tr(BA)
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08:03:39 <Cale> FreeFull: Sure, something like [1,0;0,0]
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08:06:19 <Cale> (that'll be two parallel lines, not a parabola)
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08:20:19 <Cale> Oh, right, to get parabolas and paraboloids, you need a linear term
08:24:49 <Cale> For example, [x,y][1,0;0,0](x,y) + [0,-1](x,y) = 1 will be a nice parabola
08:29:43 <Cale> combining a 0 eigenvalue with a nonzero linear term in that direction
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08:36:42 <shachaf> Cale: So if you express a quadratic form homogeneously the way you were talking about, you get a matrix like [[a b/2] [b/2 c]]
08:38:43 <shachaf> I guess it's not a coincidence that its determinant is (4ac-b^2)/4
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11:47:57 <HackEgo> 1/2:me//Me is a proud member of the tEaM. \ thanks ants//thants \ wisdome//The Wisdome is the place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight to the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom. Strictly speaking, it should be called the "Wissphere". \ ip//Your IP address is the address of the pointer t
11:47:59 <HackEgo> 2/2:o the current instruction. \ the walrus//In order to obtain the unredacted documents specifying the true identity of the walrus, contact the Glass Onion (mailing address: UH2BEStWmPI).
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15:20:01 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Oleg * uploaded "[[File:Cryptoleq Processor.jpg]]"
15:20:33 <esowiki> [[Cryptoleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54293&oldid=47192 * Oleg * (+59) adding a picture
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17:23:57 <ais523> 104.4b If a game that’s not using the limited range of influence option (including a two-player game) somehow enters a “loop” of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action don’t result in a draw.
17:24:01 <ais523> that rule does not say what I thought it said
17:24:12 <ais523> and also does not say what the person drafting it probably thought it meant
17:24:29 <ais523> the implication is that if there's an infinite loop but you have a choice on each loop iteration, it's not a draw even if the choice you make doesn't matter…
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17:33:27 <ais523> huh, and the rule about "you must break a loop if you can" isn't in the Comprehensive Rules, it's in the Infraction Procedure Guide
17:34:01 <ais523> this means that it's possible to construct a gamestate in which the /opponent/ is legally forced to commit a Slow Play infringement
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17:35:23 <ais523> but it rather interferes with our construction as the current solution is just "unless a player can predict the outcome of this loop, they get dinged for Slow Play"
17:35:28 <ais523> applying to both players
18:14:14 <\oren\_> what if you have a loop that has a well-defined limit
18:14:39 <ais523> then you can state the limit and the resulting gamestate to avoid the penalty
18:15:02 <shachaf> i,i Scow Play infringement
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19:11:39 <Roger9> I found a reddit post about literal brainfuck. -> https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/82e4hc/til_an_endangered_parrot_in_new_zealand_would/
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19:50:56 <int-e> Subject: Your code in Bitbucket Cloud will never look the same again <-- what an ominous subject.
19:55:21 <shachaf> i,i Ｉ𝐟𝖞𝒐𝓾𝕨𝚊𝗇𝘁𝙩𝘰⒮🇦🄾🆄ŕﾘɗ∂єаኗ𝔞ïɴ...
20:01:15 <int-e> I can't read that. I mean, even in a browser with, I think, all the necessary fonts.
20:01:39 <shachaf> It's supposed to say "If you want to see your code again..."
20:01:59 <int-e> `unidecode ⒮🇦🄾🆄ŕﾘɗ∂є
20:02:07 <HackEgo> [U+24AE PARENTHESIZED LATIN SMALL LETTER S] [U+1F1E6 REGIONAL INDICATOR SYMBOL LETTER A] [U+1F13E SQUARED LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O] [U+1F184 NEGATIVE SQUARED LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U] [U+0155 LATIN SMALL LETTER R WITH ACUTE] [U+FF98 HALFWIDTH KATAKANA LETTER RI] [U+0257 LATIN SMALL LETTER D WITH HOOK] [U+2202 PARTIAL DIFFERENTIAL] [U+0454 CYRILLIC S
20:02:38 <int-e> the "seeyourcode" part was unreadbale.
20:03:20 <shachaf> I used http://qaz.wtf/u/convert.cgi and tried to take one letter from each line.
20:03:43 <shachaf> But then halfway through I decided I'd put enough effort into it and gave up.
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21:50:19 <esowiki> [[Ende]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54294&oldid=54170 * Martin Ender * (+25) add queue-based category
21:51:15 <esowiki> [[Ende]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54295&oldid=54294 * Martin Ender * (-1) whoops, typo
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22:52:58 <boily> at last! I don't have to Ctrl-Alt-F2 then manually startx anymore!
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22:54:00 <ais523> hmm, if you're system's sufficiently screwed up that X won't start automatically, I'm surprised it could be started manually
22:54:39 <boily> and I don't have to edit resolv.conf either!
22:54:57 <boily> my system's perfectly normal and I never did nothing strange to it ever la la la ♪
22:58:27 <shachaf> If Ctrl-Alt-F2 is required, rather than Alt-F2, that sounds like X is starting up but then not running a useful X session or something.
23:02:50 <boily> helloochaf. maybe so... Ubuntu's startup gets a little bit confusing just before starting X.
23:06:46 <boily> life is but a long shrug. crack open a cold one and enjoy.
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23:25:52 <ais523> shachaf: well the ctrl doesn't hurt even if X isn't running
23:26:36 <shachaf> Yes. Maybe some people just always press Ctrl.
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23:53:36 <moony> ais523, just note that either that, or said person is using Arch, and doesn't have X by default
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00:22:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ptlist: not found
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00:23:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dobg: not found
00:24:10 <shachaf> `mkx bin/dobg//doag "bin/$1"
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00:32:30 <boily> shachaf: primitive technology.
00:37:52 <moony> i'm working on a golfing language for fun
00:39:26 <oerjan> . o O ( isn't fun usually too brief already? )
00:40:35 <moony> . o O ( ●◕◐◔› have some circles. Maybe an array of them will make oerjan stop complaining in thought bubbles? )
00:42:22 <oerjan> . ● ◔ ( don't bet on it )
00:42:45 <oerjan> some of those characters behave weirdly in the terminal.
00:43:13 <oerjan> turning into squares when i mark them
00:43:35 <oerjan> in fact the last one didn't copy right either
00:47:44 <moony> . o O ( Luckily for me, my esolang doesn't support strings. oerjan won't touch it with his complaints )
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01:46:43 <HackEgo> 11345:2018-02-15 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is late. \ 11291:2017-12-31 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is early. \ 11251:2017-12-01 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is equally offensive to all beliefs (but not time zones) \ 11250:2017-12-01 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is equally offensive to all be
01:48:09 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is Schizophrenic Lagomorph
01:48:11 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is Schizophrenic Lagomorph
01:49:15 <shachaf> Max is the only lagomorph I know.
01:49:42 <shachaf> Also how come hyraxes aren't lagomorphs?
01:52:15 * oerjan is not familiar with Max afahr
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02:15:13 <HackEgo> bin/fueue: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, interpreter /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2, for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, BuildID[sha1]=89247b916281ab82a21e5831fecc0a11ece42394, not stripped
02:16:20 <HackEgo> 1/1:piet//Piet is a really colourful programming language. \ meta//meta is about \ codo//The codo button is the dodo's undo button. \ america//This wisdom entry had to be removed due to a DMCA takedown notice. \ translater//A translater is one who transes a long time after the fact.
02:16:55 <HackEgo> 9559:2016-10-30 <oerjän> revert 9546 \ 9550:2016-10-30 <Zarutiän> le/rn America/America is two continents west of the Atlantic Ocean, split in two, North and South. A relatively small land bridges the two. \ 1510:2013-01-13 <oerjän> echo "This wisdom entry had to be removed due to a DMCA takedown notice." >wisdom/america
02:18:05 <shachaf> What's the command to run a command with one argument, HackEgo-style?
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02:22:47 <oerjan> however, you might be interested in `,2 which i just made the other day.
02:22:49 <shachaf> i,i why isn't it bin/run, which is useless anyway
02:22:55 <HackEgo> cat: bin/`,2: No such file or directory
02:23:06 <oerjan> because it reverses the effect of `run
02:23:26 <shachaf> I was about to make bin/`2` to do what I'm guessing this thing does.
02:23:31 <shachaf> If you can just remember its name.
02:24:09 <HackEgo> 2/2:le time. Lie that corrupts earth you educated stupid fools.
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02:24:33 <shachaf> Er, right. bin/2`, and yours is bin/,2
02:24:49 <shachaf> oerjan++ # stealing my ideas and traveling back in time to implement them
02:24:52 <oerjan> the , is because it undoes ` like in scheme hth
02:25:38 <shachaf> i,i `learn_append shachaf He once punned without noticing it.
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02:29:09 <HackEgo> Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty kind "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty loud punster is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
02:38:19 <esowiki> [[Fueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54296&oldid=36605 * Oerjan * (+128) /* External resources */ My tweaked version
02:42:52 <oerjan> apparently the PPCG people added Fueue to TIO
02:52:27 <fizzie> PlayerPunknown's Cattlegrounds.
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03:28:14 <pikhq> https://politics.theonion.com/white-house-now-just-holding-continuous-going-away-part-1822978954
03:28:20 <pikhq> Erm, wrong channel
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03:33:04 <shachaf> So I thought that person was obviously fake based on their post history.
03:33:09 <shachaf> But then it seemed like they might be real?
03:33:18 <shachaf> Maybe the world is just scow and real people do that sort of thing.
03:34:11 <pikhq> The world is definitely scow.
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06:21:52 <esowiki> [[Cryptoleq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54297&oldid=54293 * Oleg * (+12)
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09:04:13 <\oren\_> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Bridge_29_Macclesfield_Canal.jpg
09:04:27 <\oren\_> It's a bridge built in a weird way so that a horse pulling a boat can switch sides without having to detach the rope from the boat. topology in action!
09:07:13 <\oren\_> I have a question about this though: is it possible to construct a junction of three waterways such that a horse-drawn boat can go from any waterway to any other waterway without detaching the rope?
09:11:52 <\oren\_> never mind I see how to do it. you need three bridges though
09:12:25 <\oren\_> can it work with only two?
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09:47:05 <wob_jonas> <ais523> huh, and the rule about "you must break a loop if you can" isn't in the Comprehensive Rules => indeed, but I believe that's an oversight made at the M2010 rules updates (in 2009-07). The pre-M2010 rules (from 2009-05-01) is more explicit in the rule then called 421.
09:47:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Wierd Machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54298 * Plokmijnuhby * (+354) Created page with "I'm not totally clear on how this language works. If it takes input, does it place it in a cell? Which one? If you compare the two cells, what does it do with that information..."
09:49:28 <wob_jonas> ais523: That version of the rules says: 421.2. If the loop contains one or more optional actions and one player controls them all, that player chooses a number. The loop is treated as repeating that many times or until another player intervenes, whichever comes first. 421.3. If a loop contains optional actions controlled by two players and actions
09:49:29 <wob_jonas> by both of those players are required to continue the loop, ...
09:50:25 <wob_jonas> I think they forgot to include that loop at the rewrite.
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10:10:56 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I think two bridges are enough. Just build two bridges similar to that one you linked, only make them wider so the horse can choose to go under the bridge and continue to walk on the same shore, on each shore.
10:11:31 <wob_jonas> It won't be very practical though, because you'll need a long rope that you tie shorter most of the time,
10:13:09 <wob_jonas> That's practical today, but only because we have light synthetic ropes, the kind that mountain-climbers can carry a lot of, making mountain-climbing much safer, and once you assume such modern technology, you'll also have modern steel clamps that make unattaching and reattaching a rope pretty quick.
10:13:25 <wob_jonas> Plus, you know, we have engines now instead of horses.
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11:47:05 <HackEgo> 1/3:vacuum tube//After the London terrorist attacks of 2005, the Underground was completely evacuated. Without air resistance, the trains would go at blazingly fast speeds between the terminals. This is called a vacuum tube. Sadly, current technology doesn't let passengers travel that way. \ free//A free structure is one that has no nontrivial
11:47:07 <HackEgo> 2/3:identities, except algebraist phrase that in a much fancier way with morphisms. \ claustrophobia//Claustrophobia thought the wisdom database was getting too crowded, so left. \ lexande//lexande is transitive (and thus immune to Mostowski collapse). \ imode//imode is an Innovative Multicomponent Drug Designer, afflicted by a severe case of
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14:51:38 <constant> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Snr113r5ocY
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16:35:49 <ais523> aha! I think I've solved the M:tG think such that we have no decisions to make, and thus can't get dinged for slow play
16:36:04 <ais523> we use basically the same setup, but the opponent controls the Noxious Ghoul
16:36:15 <ais523> so the only creature that we control is the real Rotlung Reanimator
16:36:42 <alercah> deliberately setting up a very long loop so that you have no control over the outcome is probably not going to escape slow play
16:36:53 <ais523> alercah: I've been reading the rules in huge detail
16:37:06 <ais523> AFAIK, the /opponent/ gets a slow play penalty if /they/ can't predict the outcome of the loop
16:37:15 <alercah> the penalty rules are soft
16:37:27 <ais523> yes, I can't imagine a judge would give more than a warning, if anything
16:37:40 <ais523> but the point is that it means that the player can legally set up the lopo
16:37:57 <alercah> no judge is going to be held to the letter of the penalty rules if it leads to ridiculous outcomes
16:38:14 <ais523> the basic issue was that in our previous construction, the active player could control the order in which two triggers stacked, putting one on top would lead to a tight loop, the other on top to a non-tight loop
16:38:20 <alercah> they'll go to the head judge, get a deviation, and do it
16:38:36 <ais523> this is purely about wanting to set up the combo under the rules of the game
16:39:00 <ais523> the fact that the opponent in theory gets a slow play penalty for not predicting the outcome is irrelevant, as as you say it'll never happen in practice (although it is amusing)
16:39:38 <ais523> something that interested me is that the Comprehensive Rules have no loop-breaking rules
16:39:53 <ais523> other than "a loop that contains only mandatory actions is a draw", which is ill-defined both in terms of "loop" and "mandatory"
16:40:33 <ais523> the "you must not continue with a loop if you can't predict the result" is MTR-only (and slightly weird as it doesn't take into account the situation where you have no choice but to continue the loop or to concede)
16:41:22 <ais523> we can even adjust this to a very large finite setup (say, we run this for a trillion iterations rather than infinity, stacking the trillion Noxious Ghoul triggers on the stack at the start), then we /know/ there isn't a draw by mandatory loop
16:41:30 <ais523> and yet nobody can predict the outcome so it's still illegal to actually continue with it…
16:47:27 <ais523> alercah: incidentally, in "a loop that contains only mandatory actions is a draw", would you consider choosing the order in which to stack triggers to be a mandatory action?
16:47:41 <ais523> especially if it makes no difference in the long run?
17:01:47 <ais523> hmm, if it /does/ make a difference in the long run (e.g. some stack orders can break the loop, some can't), I guess that makes it possible for the outcome of a game to be ill-defined
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20:40:54 <wob_jonas> ais523: have you read my reply in the logs? or should I paste it?
20:43:31 <wob_jonas> ais523: as for the slow play, if the opponent can't predict what happens, isn't he just supposed to call a judge, just like when he doesn't know what happens because of obscure rules questions? he's not punished for how slow the judge is.
20:43:58 <ais523> I haven't read it, I can try to find it though
20:44:08 <wob_jonas> https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-03-07.html
20:44:43 <ais523> wob_jonas: aha, so the rule I remembered being in the rules actually was a rule once
20:44:46 <ais523> but it got repealed by mistake?
20:45:58 <ais523> either that or they decided to just let the MTR handle it
20:53:22 <ais523> maybe I'll email Wizards about it
20:53:28 <ais523> not right now, though, I should sleep
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21:01:02 <fizzie> wob_jonas: You can link to a specific line by clicking on the nickname on that line -- it will add a #lXXX anchor to the URL.
21:01:12 <fizzie> https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-03-07.html#lBc for example.
21:01:33 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cockatrice * New user account
21:02:12 <wob_jonas> fizzie: yeah. or I could have just @told him earlier. at that point it didn't matter, and I was eating with one hand, which slowed me down.
21:15:48 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54299&oldid=54261 * Cockatrice * (+193) /* Introductions */
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23:10:49 <\oren\_> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322530755_Analysis_and_Qualitative_Effects_of_Large_Breasts_on_Aerodynamic_Performance_and_Wake_of_a_Miss_Kobayashi%27s_Dragon_Maid_Character?channel=doi&linkId=5a5ef35a458515c03ee11245&showFulltext=true
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01:22:08 <boily> not yet, applying...
01:22:43 <Guest10054> you also have to actually register saturday at 10am. refundable 65 dollar fee
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01:24:51 <boily> On-site Volunteer Submissions
01:24:53 <boily> March 3rd — March 17th
01:26:26 <moony> Guest10054 is better than you, quintopia
01:26:52 <moony> nah, he helped me with my calculus
01:27:49 <boily> oerjan: bonsϿirjan. https://youtu.be/HvtPMIS1ufA
01:28:16 <oerjan> helloily. i almost thought Guest10054 was a spammer a moment there.
01:30:19 <moony> quintopia, become one with guest
01:31:33 * boily thwacks shachaf. 0.92 FP.
01:32:13 <oerjan> boily: ok i guess-a that one got pasta
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02:16:13 <fizzie> fungot: Are you actually up, or did I forget to bring you back after that last thing?
02:16:13 <fungot> fizzie: it allows you to put it in my /tmp/ still.)"
02:16:27 <fizzie> Subsystems nominal, I guess.
02:16:55 <fungot> boily: perhaps the implementors have a reason. both english and fnord punctuation is gaining popularity here too. i appreciate bad puns. please stop tempting me, i should
02:17:18 <boily> fungot: stop encouraging bad puns.
02:17:18 <fungot> boily: if i'm going and if i were to substitute one of the very first part of the code written for it yet
02:17:52 <fizzie> For some reason I don't quite remember I had to start using a bouncer between the fungot and the freenode, and as a result it can be hard to be sure it's actually connected.
02:17:52 <fungot> fizzie: tcl still had steam, especially because of the unusual extreme absence of noise terror. or something. good nite
02:18:33 <shachaf> I've never used Tcl, but I must say that's a very compelling feature.
02:19:15 <fizzie> shachaf: By the way, I'll be doing another short visit to MTV in two weeks' time.
02:19:59 <shachaf> We should get a bay area #esoteric IRC meetup going this time.
02:20:49 <fizzie> If there's enough #esoteric to go around there, sure. I'm there over the weekend (the 24th-25th) so I might even have some spare time, assuming no team things intervene.
02:21:07 <fizzie> Also I wanted to see the Exploratorium.
02:22:25 <shachaf> Who here is even in the bay area nowadays?
02:22:40 <shachaf> I feel like it used to be half the channel.
02:22:58 <fizzie> The half that wasn't from Hexham, I guess.
02:23:39 <constant> fizzie: ping me when you're around
02:27:18 <fizzie> I'll make some noises here, but it's going to be one week about symmetrically surrounding that weekend I mentioned.
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07:32:58 <HackEgo> ysaclist 72: boily shachaf
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07:51:55 <zzo38> k7/P7/P7/P7/P7/P7/P7/R5K1 Chess960 #8
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11:49:02 <fungot> boily: levi-laptop! sleep well! i finally managed to oust the chosen fnord among their files. i actually feel fine. what are you trying to change it
11:49:13 <lambdabot> shachaf said 4h 15m 59s ago: ysaclist
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16:18:19 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54300&oldid=54299 * Ais523 non-admin * (+223) /* Introductions */ get this account past the spam filter
16:18:32 <esowiki> [[1Hash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54301&oldid=33565 * Ais523 non-admin * (+587) categories; computational class
16:19:54 <esowiki> [[1Hash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54302&oldid=54301 * Ais523 non-admin * (+2) /* Computational class */ queue terminology: push/shift, not push/pop
16:21:00 <esowiki> [[DownRight]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54303&oldid=35900 * Ais523 non-admin * (+4) /* Computational class */ fix a missing word
16:21:16 <esowiki> [[DownRight]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54304&oldid=54303 * Ais523 non-admin * (-1) /* Computational class */ grammar
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16:46:48 <\oren\_> My hobby: inventing new phoneme distinctions in English
16:47:38 <\oren\_> pronounce "wr" words with rounded lips and "r" with neutral lips
16:47:54 <\oren\_> pronounce "ph" more softly than "f"
16:49:47 <\oren\_> pronounce "rh" as a french "r"
16:50:56 <\oren\_> by analogy with "tsk tsk" all /tk/ sequences are clicks
16:51:45 <\oren\_> including the name of the language "tcl/tk" which is now pronounced as click, slyabbic l, click
16:53:03 <\oren\_> however, the transformation does not occur when the t and the k are in different morphemes
16:54:01 <doesthiswork> voiceless sibilant plus nasal could be voiceless nasal
16:57:56 <doesthiswork> also I've been changing laterally released coronal stops into lateral affricates (such as bottle)
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19:44:49 <quintopia> oh god that pronunciation of bottle...it sounds so weird and aztecky
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20:45:44 <ivzem> Just started writing a wiki article on one language I implemented
20:48:47 <ivzem> It's based around a binary tree and every operation is executed on every value inside it
20:50:13 <zzo38> OK, we can see, once it is posted
20:50:20 <zzo38> So far I do not see them.
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20:51:44 <ivzem> Going to happen tomorrow most likely
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20:53:17 <int-e> Heh, I guess we can afford 14 more quotes before the quote file is full.
20:53:21 <HackEgo> 1322 26633 159414 quotes
20:54:12 <zzo38> Is there a maximum?
20:57:12 <\oren\_> it should be a pressable button but it's not
20:57:17 <\oren\_> instead evry time I brush the side of my aptop the stupid thing spews a OTP into whatever I have open
20:59:17 <\oren\_> also you can't take it out of the usb slot without activating it a few times
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21:06:58 <int-e> zzo38: meh, it's probably not even funny, but a quick calculation should tell you which number I'm trying to avoid.
21:17:32 <zzo38> Yes, I can see that actually
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21:45:29 <wob_jonas> int-e: you could just add two quotes in the same HackEgo invocation. HackEgo does locking, which should guarantee that the number of quotes you want to avoid isn't observed during the command.
21:46:04 <\oren\_> nice fucntion name: do_the_main_thing();
21:46:36 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I usually call that function FooMain except that Foo is replaced by the code name of the program
22:03:41 <wob_jonas> fungot, who's your favorite pop musician?
22:03:41 <fungot> wob_jonas: it's still the same function as container classes, only use them from compiled code?
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00:05:12 <fungot> boily: is it what they used to be
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00:10:23 <fizzie> Nostrils these days aren't what they used to be.
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00:35:38 <quintopia> check this out: http://onehouronelife.com
00:38:41 <HackEgo> In ancient history, the Soviet Union used to be the THEM. They believed in absurd principles like "Better Red than Dead". Then Ronald Reagan invented Star Wars to destroy it, after which there seemed to be no the THEM for a while.
00:38:54 <HackEgo> Information on the THEM has been removed for national security reasons.
00:38:57 <HackEgo> The US is the country opposed to the THEM.
00:39:16 <HackEgo> 1513:2013-01-13 <oerjän> echo "Information on the THEM has been removed for national security reasons." >wisdom/\'the them\'
00:39:22 <shachaf> oerjan: national security of which nation twh
00:44:14 <quintopia> pretty clear answer shachaf. obviously "every nation"
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00:54:22 <moony> bonjorhellohiholay
00:55:00 <moony> or, simply, hi boily
00:56:21 <boily> mhelloohelloohelloohelloony.
00:56:30 <moony> BonjorhellOhIhoLay
00:56:38 <moony> i can't think of a word for Hello with a y in it
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01:14:25 <HackEgo> inlakesh: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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01:28:30 <quintopia> boily does it seems good do you like it
01:28:49 <boily> it seems quite historical.
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05:58:49 <zzo38> Please tell me if you have idea relating to Free Hero Mesh. Would you use this software?
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07:29:25 <oerjan> <\oren\_> pronounce "ph" more softly than "f" <-- phancy
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08:59:01 <oerjan> @tell Taneb That cache system in your Fueue interpreter is _so_ hairy. i'd forgotten all about it, but it got included on PPCG's TIO, and i looked at it again and was _sure_ it was broken, but somehow couldn't make my counterexample work...
09:00:07 <oerjan> @tell Taneb And I'm pretty sure i was present back when the hack that makes the bug magically disappear was inserted... i have the files from both before and after.
09:00:55 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist: quintopia myname int-e
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11:50:07 <lambdabot> CYUL 091100Z 31004KT 8SM -SN SCT015 BKN020 OVC090 M03/M04 A2956 RMK SC4SC1AC3 SLP013
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13:06:29 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sifoo * New user account
13:17:04 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54305&oldid=54300 * Sifoo * (+223) /* Introductions */
13:18:21 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54306&oldid=54280 * Sifoo * (+11) /* Non-alphabetic */
13:18:46 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54307&oldid=54306 * Sifoo * (-11) /* Non-alphabetic */
13:19:04 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54308&oldid=54307 * Sifoo * (+11) /* C */
13:21:19 <esowiki> [[Cixl]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54309 * Sifoo * (+510) Cixl is a minimal, decently typed scripting language for embedding in and extending from C.
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13:47:37 <int-e> decently typed, hmm
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14:03:26 <wob_jonas> "<moony> i can't think of a word for Hello with a y in it" => how about "bye"?
14:18:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: star-wars: not found
14:18:14 <HackEgo> Grievous \ Baze Malbus \ Greedo \ Unkar Plutt \ the Reek \ Jocasta Nu
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21:37:30 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ for n; do rm-p "wisdom/$n" && echo "Forget what?"; done
21:38:02 <wob_jonas> ``` >bin/forget echo $'#!/bin/sh\n''for n; do if [ lethe = "$a" ]; then echo rm -f "wisdom/$n"; else rm-p "wisdom/$n"; fi && echo "Forget what?"; done' && echo ok
21:38:42 <wob_jonas> `learn bpaaihiyw is a random word I just invented to test bin/forget
21:38:45 <HackEgo> Learned 'bpaaihiyw': bpaaihiyw is a random word I just invented to test bin/forget
21:38:50 <HackEgo> bpaaihiyw is a random word I just invented to test bin/forget
21:39:03 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove ‘wisdom/bpaaihiyw’: No such file or directory
21:39:08 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove ‘wisdom/lethe’: No such file or directory
21:39:33 <wob_jonas> ``` >bin/forget echo $'#!/bin/sh\n''for n; do if [ lethe = "$n" ]; then echo rm -f "wisdom/$n"; else rm-p "wisdom/$n"; fi && echo "Forget what?"; done' && echo ok
21:39:57 <wob_jonas> `learn lbjumykca is another nonsense word for testing bin/forget
21:40:02 <HackEgo> Learned 'lbjumykca': lbjumykca is another nonsense word for testing bin/forget
21:40:04 <HackEgo> lbjumykca is another nonsense word for testing bin/forget
21:40:16 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove ‘wisdom/lbjumykca’: No such file or directory
21:40:22 <HackEgo> rm -f wisdom/lethe \ Forget what?
21:40:36 <wob_jonas> ``` >bin/forget echo $'#!/bin/sh\n''for n; do if [ lethe = "$n" ]; then rm -f "wisdom/$n"; else rm-p "wisdom/$n"; fi && echo "Forget what?"; done' && echo ok
21:40:57 <wob_jonas> `learn xshkeopjp is a third word invented to test forget
21:41:02 <HackEgo> Learned 'xshkeopjp': xshkeopjp is a third word invented to test forget
21:41:04 <HackEgo> xshkeopjp is a third word invented to test forget
21:41:15 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove ‘wisdom/xshkeopjp’: No such file or directory
21:41:22 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove ‘wisdom/Lethe’: No such file or directory
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21:57:03 <\oren\_> now I have a conflict when I pull origin master?!
21:57:39 <\oren\_> every fucking time, I have to delete everything and re check out the whole git repository
21:59:27 <\oren\_> wob_jonas: just raging at git and how it doesn't ever work in an understandable manner
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22:00:12 <\oren\_> so every time I do something non trivial it is necessary to rm -rf the whole thing and re dwonload everything
22:01:51 <ais523> \oren\_: git has a simple and consistent internal model which is not that which most of its users expect
22:02:34 <\oren\_> ais523: okay well is there a command that says: "make everything, incuding all the invisible state, the same as the repository"
22:02:52 <\oren\_> as an alternative to deleting the thing
22:04:18 <wob_jonas> The strange internal model is only part of the problem, the bad user interface is the other.
22:04:27 <ais523> \oren\_: «git remote update» then «git reset --hard repositoryname/branchname»
22:04:47 <ais523> assuming you're on the branch at the time, it won't match that
22:05:01 <ais523> I'm not sure there's a command to resynchronise every branch against the remote repository
22:05:04 <wob_jonas> ais523: huh? (git remote update) ? that surprises me.
22:05:13 <zzo38> If git doesn't work, try fossil instead see if it work better or not
22:05:19 <ais523> wob_jonas: otherwise you're resynchronising against your local copy of the remote repo
22:05:29 <ais523> git reset doesn't touch the Internet
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22:06:47 <wob_jonas> ais523: ok, that's just not a command I use. Is that sort of the same as (git fetch), but possibly targetting different set of branches by default?
22:07:48 <ais523> wob_jonas: it's basically git fetch except it fetches everything you have a local copy of, but it doesn't /do/ anything with the fetched result other than allowing you to mention it in a command
22:08:14 <ais523> it is very useful when you have local copies of 20 different repos and want to see if any of them have updated, also to be able to look at them offline later
22:09:05 <wob_jonas> ais523: how does that differ from (git fetch)? Doesn't that also fetch a local copy of everything, but doesn't do anything but update the local following branch tags in the remotes/ prefix to point to whatever
22:09:16 <wob_jonas> the corresponding remote branch tag points to?
22:09:22 <ais523> I thought git fetch would download a single remote branch to FETCH_HEAD
22:10:05 <ais523> git remote update looks at every repo you've linked your own repo to (with git remote add), and every branch you have a local copy of (or maybe every branch full stop)
22:10:27 <wob_jonas> ais523: ah, that sounds like the equivalent of (git fetch --all) then
22:11:27 <ais523> gah, git's docs are not at this point clear enough to determine what the difference between those two commands are
22:11:32 <ais523> other than maybe that they use different config fields?
22:11:52 <\oren\_> ok, now I have a master branch with a log that isn't all messed up
22:12:18 <ais523> \oren\_: you have to be a bit careful with reset --hard as it really does blow away all your local state (including partially edited files)
22:12:27 <ais523> but it's at least less extreme than rm -rf
22:12:37 <wob_jonas> ais523: (git remote update) can be fine, I'm just surprised that I hadn't heard of that command
22:13:02 <\oren\_> i don't have any local changes I care about, all the local changes are a failed attempt at rebasing a thing
22:13:13 <wob_jonas> I knew about (git remote), but I thought it was a high-level interface to add or modify remote tracking config options, most useful for adding a new remote
22:13:22 <ais523> oh yes, git reset --hard and git rebase --abort are pretty good from recovering from failed attempts to rebase
22:14:02 <wob_jonas> ais523: back to the orignal problem, don't you also need some command to switch to the master branch or something, just in case some other branch is currently checked out? plus also a command to delete untracked files from the working copy
22:14:07 <\oren\_> Instead of rebasing I'm going to create a new branch and manually move changes because the master branch is waaay too far from what I originally branched this off
22:14:43 <ais523> wob_jonas: yes, you need to switch back to the branch you want first, I mentioned the assumption that you were on the correct branch already
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22:15:07 <ais523> as for deleting untracked files, that is such a dangerous operation that my mind blanked out the fact that it was possible, and now you reminded me I refuse to give anyone advice to do it :-)
22:15:45 <\oren\_> as in, my branch, even the version on the repository, has commits in its history that no longer exist in master
22:16:02 <ais523> that said, Thicket (my vaporware attempt to bring scapegoat's UI to git's backend) has an /undoable/ command to delete untracked files…
22:16:09 <\oren\_> so it's like, orphaned or whatever
22:16:50 <\oren\_> stupid history rewriting. stupid feature
22:16:55 <wob_jonas> \oren\: yeah, rebase is confusing, I never use it. Instead I create a new branch from the ancestor with (git tag $newtagname $ancestor) then switch to it with (git checkout $newtagname --)
22:18:09 <wob_jonas> then merge changes with git merge (records merge info, can only apply changes together with their ancestors) or git cherry-pick (doesn't record merge info, just applies changes) or git revert (same as git cherry-pick but backwards), the latter two always with the -n option, so I can merge multiple changes to a single commit and edit its contents an
22:18:09 <wob_jonas> d message, and commit with (git commit)
22:19:13 <wob_jonas> Ok, not always. Sometimes I use git cherry-pick without the -n option to copy a long sequence of non-conflicting changes.
22:19:46 <wob_jonas> The point is, git rebase is confusing to me in my head because of how it destructively changes the meaning what a tag points to, so I avoid it.
22:20:30 <ais523> I rarely rebase, and when I do I nearly always use an interactive rebase on commits that haven't been pushed yet (or that, at least, haven't been pulled by anyone else)
22:20:57 <wob_jonas> But ais523's point is still relevant for that, because git cherry-pick still stores some kind of state (for conflict resolution I think), and sometimes you have to clear that with git cherry-pick --quit
22:25:20 <wob_jonas> What really confuses me about the destructive tag rewriting is that if git rebase stops before applying all the changes because it finds a conflict, I can't imagine what the heck the intermediate state is and what I'm allowed to do with the repo to recover from that.
22:25:56 <wob_jonas> I think the state is stored in some of these strange uppercase magical tag names.
22:26:55 <wob_jonas> Whereas if I cherry-pick, then I still have the old tag name pointing to the old head, and the new tag name (also HEAD) pointing to a commit with the first few changes merged.
22:31:44 <\oren\_> and of course git status is completely useless.
22:32:00 <\oren\_> when you're in the middle of a merge, rebase or any other hidden state thing
22:32:10 <\oren\_> it just says "not on any branch"
22:33:18 <\oren\_> rather tha explaining A: what kind of operation is in progress, B: how to proceed, and C: how to cancel the entire thing
22:33:40 <wob_jonas> git status is useless unless you know the magic incantation (git status -bs # bs stands for bullshit) in which case it actually shows what I want, namely the name of the checked out branch, the active cherry-pick/merge status, and all changed files in a readable way
22:34:15 <wob_jonas> changed files both in the index and the working copy
22:34:32 <wob_jonas> the default verbose format of git status is horrible
22:38:28 <\oren\_> forget it, I'll just create a patch off the current master and send it to the guy who's responsible for the fucked up history in the first place
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22:53:56 <wob_jonas> \oren\: that is a good solution, yes. you shouldn't be required to cope with the vcs tool the maintainer uses, and luckily the patch format is now universally understood, so maintainers can read it with any vcs
22:54:34 <wob_jonas> sadly sometimes github people complain that I should make a github pull request, which is unreasonably complicated
22:54:50 <wob_jonas> and I can use whatever vcs I prefer to create patches or patchsets
22:56:09 <wob_jonas> At work I've copied parts of company projects from a git repo and an MS tfs repo each to untangle vcs stuff, and then committed back to the original repo.
22:57:07 <\oren\_> I mean this was needlessly complex. my entire branch modifies only 4 files in the first place
22:59:12 <\oren\_> rebase just for some reason errors out all the time
23:00:27 <\oren\_> and my stupid attempts at rebasing result in >>>>>> and <<<<<< lines being in the actual repository
23:00:54 <\oren\_> which there should be some sort of detector and warning for but noooo....
23:04:57 <olsner> maybe the "Erroring out all the time" is because of the conflicts you're getting
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23:18:24 <\oren\_> yeah well, I made an entirely new patch, which does what I need actually have happen
23:23:13 <olsner> if you just want to push some crap to a remote git repo, you could always use https://github.com/olsner/fuggit (the commit command will construct a commit that overwrites all remote files and dirs to match your versions and push it in one go)
23:24:17 <olsner> (that also ought to come with a readme file telling you not to use it except as a joke)
23:33:11 <zzo38> Git is confusing for me too, so I use Fossil instead. (And even if you do use Git, you are not required to use GitHub, anyways)
23:34:07 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I'm not using github. But apparently you need to use github to create a file request on github, which is why I haven't created such a patch request yet.
23:35:22 <zzo38> What are you trying to request specifically?
23:35:55 <wob_jonas> zzo38: changing the contents of a file
23:36:42 <wob_jonas> zzo38: it's a one or two line change, and I submitted a patch inline in a github bug ticket, to which a maintainer replied that I should make pull requests next time because that's easier for maintainers
23:37:24 <zzo38> O, OK. I don't know what file
23:38:26 <wob_jonas> I don't think that's relevant. The point is, I may have to find out how creating a github repo and pushing to it and making a pull request works to be able to submit push requests later if that helps maintainers.
23:39:00 <ais523> wob_jonas: I prefer pull requests to not be done via github
23:39:11 <ais523> just put it in a repo somewhere and send me an email asking me to pull
23:39:44 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure, but this was for a project that is mostly maintained on github
23:40:21 <zzo38> If you want to patch the official versions of my projects, just submit the changes you want to make; you do not need to put in a repo somewhere
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02:53:07 <imode> why are there no usable languages implemented using a queue?
02:53:19 <imode> stacks have had it too good for too long.
02:58:08 <ais523> imode: usable as in not a tarpit?
02:58:32 <imode> something like a queue-based forth.
02:59:09 <ais523> I think it's because queue-based languages tend to be inherently O(n) slower than other languages
02:59:22 <ais523> because once you put something into the queue you have to wait for it to get back to the front before you can use it
03:00:03 <imode> well, you encounter some of the same problems with stacks via stack juggling.
03:00:25 <imode> and doing deep peeks into the queue is just a matter of shifting.
03:00:29 <ais523> the thing about stacks, though, is that they're good for temporaries
03:00:43 <ais523> that said, I've been considering the idea of using a /call/ queue rather than a call stack
03:00:51 <imode> telnet into imode.tech, port 1338.
03:01:06 <ais523> it tends to lead to a naturally concurrent language, as opposed to call stacks which tend to lead to sequential languages
03:01:06 <imode> (the UI may be broken.)
03:01:54 <imode> this is a prefix expression evaluator.
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03:02:23 <imode> you can do simple things like `+ 1 + 2 3`. repeatedly hitting enter steps through the queue and performs operations.
03:02:48 <imode> you can also do definitions. `define square * dup end`.
03:07:12 <ais523> how do definitions work recursively?
03:07:20 <ais523> that's obvious with a stack, less so with a queue
03:07:47 <imode> if you do something like `square 4`, the queue turns into `4 * dup`.
03:08:31 <imode> try defining something recursive! there's no conditionals (yet), so you can't define useful things..
03:10:09 <ais523> well, not even recusion
03:10:11 <ais523> just one function calling another
03:11:04 <imode> any definition gets its content enqueued.
03:11:56 <imode> so if you have `define foo bar end` and `define bar foo end`, and you type `foo` and hit enter, it'll be replaced with `bar`. likewise, `bar` will be replaced with `foo`. it'll oscillate back and forth.
03:12:31 <ais523> this isn't really a queue-based language
03:12:41 <ais523> it's basically lambda calculus with a weird evaluation roder
03:12:58 <ais523> as operations stay unevaluated unless all their arguments are fully evaluated
03:12:59 <imode> it's definitely a queue-based language. everything is held in a queue.
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03:13:52 <ais523> it's basically a circular string on which rewrite rules run
03:14:19 <ais523> whereas lambda calculus can be seen as a string on which rewrite rules run
03:14:47 <imode> it's definitely the first thing. I don't see how else you'd interpret "queue-based language" aside from... everything's in a queue.
03:15:13 <ais523> imode: I'd expect its nature as a queue to have some impact on the semantics of the language
03:15:29 <ais523> you could literally evaluate this language in a different order other than circular scan and get the same result
03:15:59 <imode> ...you could evaluate any RPN language in a different order and get the same result, I don't see your point
03:16:25 <ais523> here, imagine evaluating the language like this: pick a random instance of an operator, see if it has the right number of operands to its right (wrapping round), if it does evaluate it, if it doesn't reroll
03:16:34 <ais523> I believe that's 100% equivalent
03:16:46 <ais523> likewise, RPN (the notation) is not inherently tied to a stack (the data structure)
03:16:53 <ais523> it's a common way to implement it because it's efficient
03:17:10 <imode> rrrrright, as opposed to rewrite rules.
03:17:25 <ais523> but barring metaprogramming facilities like Underload has, you could implement it using rewrite rules or translation to imperative code or even a queue
03:18:01 <imode> also, wait, you just described what my interpreter does.
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03:18:30 <imode> like, verbatim. try evaluating `+ + 1 2 + 3 4`. type it, then hit enter a couple times.
03:18:43 <ais523> imode: yes, what you have is basically a polish notation evaluator that uses a queue to determine the eval order
03:19:00 <imode> yyyyyes. how else would you really define a queue-based language.
03:19:09 <imode> in fact, how else would you really define a stack-based language?
03:19:58 <imode> forths (and really any RPN languages) kind of imply a stack as an eval order. both of these things imply some kind of rewrite mechanism. again, I don't see your point.
03:20:26 <ais523> normally you say the language is inherently stack-based when you go beyond what you can do with just rewrite rules for defining the semantics
03:20:32 <ais523> although it's quite hard to find an operation that requires that
03:20:44 <imode> roll comes to mind.
03:20:54 <ais523> Underload works entirely with rewrite rules, for example (but tends to cause a "virtual stack" to come into being of operands collecting at the left hand side of the program)
03:21:05 <ais523> even roll can be defined as a multiple-in multiple-out operator
03:21:07 <imode> I have `get` in my language.
03:22:07 <imode> so by your logic, RPN langs aren't really stack-oriented languages because there aren't, by default ("canonically, we'll say), operations that explicitly rely on the idea of an underlying stack.
03:22:21 <imode> what would you do to make them actually stack-oriented?
03:23:02 <ais523> I think something like Befunge is inherently stack-oriented because the operands must, by the semantics of the language, be calculated (and thus enstacked) before the operators are even known
03:23:23 <imode> so the idea of a hidden stack that's not reflected in the syntax?
03:23:53 <ais523> from another point of view, C is inherently stack-oriented, despite not mentioning a stack anywhere in the spec, because the way that functions work inherently requires a call stack to exist
03:24:11 <imode> ahhh. I get where you're going now.
03:24:37 <imode> I guess that's just a division of rewrite-based languages and things where rewrite rules don't really fit.
03:27:14 <imode> so, a call queue...
03:28:05 <imode> if you're in a procedure, and you call other procedures, do they just get added to the call queue and then called at return from said procedure?
03:28:19 <imode> doesn't that just reduce to something like what I have?
03:29:17 <imode> I mean imagine something built up like `foo(); bar(); baz(); return;`. when that return hits, `foo` is called, then `bar`, then `baz`. but `foo` can also enqueue stuff that will be executed after `baz`.
03:33:17 <imode> ais523: any ideas other than that? those are the assumptions I had when I walked into this.
03:34:43 <ais523> well, my language with a call queue was trigger-based
03:35:02 <ais523> procedures ran automatically when variables gained particular values
03:35:16 <ais523> but a procedure couldn't trigger twice if there was already a copy pending
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10:44:38 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Brokenlagorithm * New user account
10:56:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54310&oldid=54305 * Brokenlagorithm * (+106)
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20:43:56 <wob_jonas> On ebay, after submit the feedback form on an item I bought, the site just asked me "Do you want to sell another item?". I never sold anything on ebay. This is such a nonsequitur.
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21:00:53 <int-e> wob_jonas: well, at least they didn't ask whethet you've stopped beating your wife...
21:09:04 <shachaf> they're suggesting that your feedback is implausible and they don't buy it hth
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22:06:11 <HackEgo> `learn creates a wisdom entry and tries to guess which word is the key. Syntax (case insensitive): `learn [a|an|the] <keyword>[s][punctuation] [...]
22:06:13 <HackEgo> A study is mostly useless until backed up by further studies. See studies.
22:06:34 <HackEgo> Studies show lots of things. Nobody reads them, though. Also: this study contradicts this other study. These two studies agree, but were secretly paid for by the same company.
22:09:25 <HackEgo> Mario is a classic PSPACE-complete problem invented by Nintendo.
22:10:35 <HackEgo> 1/3:false//false is a very old stack-based language. For an authentic experience, run it on an Amiga. It's also not true. \ fsm//An FSM is a state machine with noodly appendages. \ blæg//Blæg is a color that cannot exist under the current understanding of physics. It is used on the #esoteric flag, along with ultraviolet and whatever is conv
22:10:43 <HackEgo> 2/3:enient. It is a nullary color, meaning that it can be mixed with itself to produce the primary colors. \ norway//Norway is the suburb capital of Sweden. It's where the Nobel Peace Prize is announced. It's a warm, dry place, at least compared to Québec. \ remavas//Remavas is a revolution in human biology. He's cofriends with oerjan. He's ap
22:10:45 <HackEgo> 3/3:parently from Frankfurt, Germany, but he's actually from Mars. His typing skills are so incredibly bad, some say he writes in a different orthography designed for a different language.
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22:56:03 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, the reals, Lambek's lemma, Curry's paradox, Stone spaces, algebraic geometry, locales, and histograms.
22:56:36 <HackEgo> Histograms are diagrams showing histamine levels. Taneb invented them.
22:56:41 <shachaf> `slwd tanebventions: maths//s/ms,/& linear logic,/
22:56:49 <shachaf> `slwd tanebventions: math//s/ms,/& linear logic,/
22:56:51 <HackEgo> tanebventions: math//Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, linear logic, the reals, Lambek's lemma, Curry's paradox, Stone spaces, algebraic geometry, locales, and histograms.
22:57:16 <shachaf> Oh, I guess Taneb dually invented antihistograms.
22:57:26 <int-e> . o O ( histograms are diagrams often found in ancient caves? )
22:57:48 <shachaf> Aren't those prehistograms?
23:10:07 <shachaf> https://twitter.com/stevecheckoway/status/972540498282975234
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00:56:28 <esowiki> [[Linear bounded automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54311&oldid=30992 * Ais523 * (+127) add a See Also
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01:15:35 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIA! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! TRYING TO REGISTER BUT FORM IS BUGGED AND I CAN'T PROFILE AND AERGERHGIOERGHAIOERGHAIOERGHIOAERHGOIAERGHO!
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01:47:13 <moony> BonjorhellOhIhoLay
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02:46:04 <esowiki> [[The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54312&oldid=54022 * Ais523 * (+489) /* Semantics */ let's not start programs in the middle of a trigger; also disallow representations of a halt other than all-zeroes
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03:23:31 <zzo38> Here is a implementation of Waterfall Model in JavaScript: a=>a.reduce((x,y)=>x[0]<y[0]?x:y).map((x,y)=>a[y][0]+=x) The rows are altered in place; the return value is only the new values and not the entire matrix.
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03:29:49 <zzo38> (It also doesn't loop)
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06:04:14 <esowiki> [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54313&oldid=54255 * DMC * (+30)
06:04:36 <esowiki> [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54314&oldid=54313 * DMC * (+0)
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16:07:44 <wob_jonas> If we want to simulate the water clocks with water-related M:tG creature types for flavor, do we have enough such subtypes?
16:08:11 <wob_jonas> Water types: Camarid, Cephalid, Crab, Crocodile, Fish, Frog, Hippo, Homarid, Jellyfish, Kraken, Leviathan, Merfolk, Nautilus, Octopus, Oyster, Phelddagrif, Pirate, Serpent, Siren, Sponge, Squid, Starfish, Trilobite, Turtle, Whale, ; possibly also: Djinn, Drake, Elemental, Fungus, Gremlin, Hag, Illusion, Metathran, Moonfolk, Salamander, Slug, Snake,
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16:17:50 <moony> water clocks? Did someone make another turing tarpit.
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16:23:01 <wob_jonas> moony: it's ais523's new language, The Waterfall Model
16:23:42 <wob_jonas> moony: and he's also made a nice new attempt of a reduction to M:tG, which isn't documented yet, so you can only find out about it from chat logs. eventually I should write it down.
16:36:03 <wob_jonas> alercah: no, it's still a reduction to M:tG. didn't we have that discussion before?
16:36:48 <wob_jonas> alercah:https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:StackFlow&curid=9553&diff=54283&oldid=54281
16:36:55 <wob_jonas> alercah: https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:StackFlow&curid=9553&diff=54283&oldid=54281
16:37:40 <wob_jonas> It's a reduction to M:tG, because we're using M:tG to simulate the running process of a Waterfall program
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21:16:09 <zzo38> Have people recently been able to make up a hardware clone of the original IBM PC and so that 8088 MPH will work?
21:56:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54315&oldid=54287 * Oerjan * (+290) /* Initial clock */ new section
21:59:51 <HackEgo> 11451:2018-03-09 <wob_jonäs> `` >bin/forget echo $\'#!/bin/sh\\n\'\'for n; do if [ lethe = "$n" ]; then rm -f "wisdom/$n"; else rm-p "wisdom/$n"; fi && echo "Forget what?"; done\' && echo ok \ 11448:2018-03-09 <wob_jonäs> `` >bin/forget echo $\'#!/bin/sh\\n\'\'for n; do if [ lethe = "$n" ]; then echo rm -f "wisdom/$n"; else rm-p "wisdom/$n"; fi
22:00:01 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ for n; do if [ lethe = "$n" ]; then rm -f "wisdom/$n"; else rm-p "wisdom/$n"; fi && echo "Forget what?"; done
22:00:42 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/index.cgi/log/tip/bin/forget
22:02:51 <oerjan> what in the world was he doing there?
22:03:42 <oerjan> `` hg cat -r 11423 bin/forget
22:03:43 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ for n; do rm-p "wisdom/$n" && echo "Forget what?"; done
22:07:45 <oerjan> does that really apply -f only if the deleted wisdom is "lethe", or is something subtler going on?
22:08:30 <HackEgo> rm "$1" && { rmdir -p "$(dirname "$1")" 2>/dev/null; exit 0; }
22:08:42 <oerjan> @ask wob_jonas what is that lethe thing in forget about?
22:09:26 <oerjan> alercah: i made that. cleans up parent directories.
22:14:32 <oerjan> hm it just ignores the error i guess.
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22:19:35 <wob_jonas> oerjan: the goal is that if you `forget lethe then it replies "Forget what?" even if wisdom/lethe doesn't exist
22:19:48 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove ‘wisdom/cbsyibjrqbrh’: No such file or directory
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22:20:53 <wob_jonas> I could just make it skip the rm, but that would get confusing if someone created a wisdom/lethe
22:27:50 <wob_jonas> Maybe it should check for "amnesia" instead of "lethe", I dunno
22:27:58 <HackEgo> An amnesium is a school where you forget everything you learned after each test.
22:28:04 <HackEgo> wisdom/amnesium wisdom/belgium wisdom/corium
22:28:12 <HackEgo> wisdom/california wisdom/cia wisdom/claustrophobia wisdom/indonesia wisdom/manglophobia wisdom/metasepia wisdom/nitia wisdom/quintopia wisdom/russia wisdom/siberia wisdom/soviet russia wisdom/uncyclopedia wisdom/victoria wisdom/wikipedia
22:28:13 <HackEgo> wisdom/alg. ii wisdom/ascii wisdom/ii wisdom/raii
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22:28:28 <HackEgo> Manglophobia is the fear of horribly mangled "Greek" neologisms.
22:28:31 <HackEgo> Uncyclopedia is always factually accurate, except for uh, that one entry? it started with like, an AA? you can probably find it in https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex/The_Unicyclopedia
22:28:46 <HackEgo> Claustrophobia thought the wisdom database was getting too crowded, so left.
22:28:49 <HackEgo> 6905:2016-02-17 <b_jonäs> `` perl -i -pe \'s"http://\\S+"https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex/The_Unicyclopedia" and warn "replace ok"\' wisdom/uncyclopedia \ 6904:2016-02-17 <b_jonäs> `` perl -i -pe \'s"un(cyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki)"uni$1" and warn "replace ok"\' wisdom/uncyclopedia \ 6900:2016-02-17 <izaber̈a> ` sed -i s/unicy/u
22:28:59 <HackEgo> Queen Victoria is the most victorious queen the world has ever known, even having won at the not dying contest.
22:33:57 <wob_jonas> I'm trying to repair an old pajama. It's so ragged I should probably throw it out, and I'm also bad at sewage.
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22:41:04 <lambdabot> *** "sewage" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
22:41:04 <lambdabot> n 1: waste matter carried away in sewers or drains [syn:
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02:40:09 <esowiki> [[Quiney]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54316&oldid=46254 * Nathanator1416j * (-46) Author desired to remove self-reference
02:40:29 <esowiki> [[User:Nathanator1416j]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54317&oldid=38626 * Nathanator1416j * (-46) Deleting personal page
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10:41:56 <HackEgo> 1/2:terminal symbol//A terminal symbol is a terminal condition that makes your parser die eventually. Consult your linguist for medical advice. \ cat introduction//cat introduction is the process of piping one or more extra `cat` commands into your pipeline; occasionally this is even actually useful. \ bottom//Bottom is where you might end up
10:42:09 <HackEgo> 2/2: with a catamorphism, if not careful. There be balrogs. \ yorick//We know nothing about yorick, alas. \ sgeolang//Sgeolang used to change frequently, but eventually it rusted in place.
10:42:29 <boily> . o O ( what is the relationship between balrogs and turtles? )
10:53:52 <int-e> they are both not chairs
10:54:17 <int-e> (cf. http://bash.org/?965416 )
11:01:32 <int-e> But let's hope that it isn't balrogs all the way down.
11:01:48 <int-e> (that would be a really boring dungeon :P)
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12:05:04 <Taneb> oerjan: I'm like 65% sure my Fueue interpreter's cache system works
12:05:18 <Taneb> But I might have another shot at it now I'm older and wiser
12:08:19 <izabera> my bus passes in front of your office every morning
12:08:58 <Taneb> If I were to get a bus it would pass in front of your office!
12:09:06 <Taneb> (I normally cycle and there's a shortcut I can take)
12:12:22 <Taneb> I have urgent plans for that time I can't reschedule, how about some time when I'll be awake?
12:14:08 <izabera> ok today at 12:15 in front of my office
12:14:17 <izabera> you should be awake by then
12:18:39 <Taneb> But I tried really hard and managed to have a few minutes of shuteye
12:47:14 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54318&oldid=54315 * Oerjan * (+250) /* Initial clock */ Erm
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13:42:49 <int-e> wtf... http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/tbwtf.png
13:42:53 <int-e> (I cheated with the window title, but the rest is part of a real screenshot)
13:45:55 <int-e> Restarting thunderbird fixed it for now. But this isn't exactly inspiring any confidence... if your glyph cache can get corrupted (that's what I guess this is) then what else can be corrupted?
13:47:45 <fizzie> I used to get something similar on my laptop, except it was all GTK apps, and the offending letters were just missing.
13:48:03 <fizzie> But it was always some random subset of characters. Usually happened after waking from suspend.
13:49:26 <int-e> Oh... I guess the video driver could be at fault too, besides the obvious (cairo / pango / freetype... I think cairo does the glyph caching there)
13:55:49 <int-e> OTOH there's no suspend involved here.
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15:41:22 <wob_jonas> int-e: I think I've seen corruption somewhat similar to that, in some programs, mostly after the machine started swapping. It also came with the root window (desktop) image getting messed up, which I could fix by reloading that image. And I blame the video driver, not freetype or anything. It went away after I upgraded debian.
15:41:53 <wob_jonas> And by upgraded debian, I mean I installed a new debian system on the same hardware, two releases later.
15:42:20 <wob_jonas> I have very different problems now that might be video driver problems or might be motherboard hardware problems.
15:43:48 <wob_jonas> boily: balrogs and turtles both might or might not have wings. turtles lose their wings when you jump on them.
15:44:00 <wob_jonas> balrogs might too, I don't think anyone tried.
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16:16:36 <HackEgo> olist 1114: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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18:10:34 <\oren\_> wow britain is on the brink of war
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19:11:40 <moony> i'm working on a compild golfing language for fun
19:11:48 <moony> someone get me a spare e
19:12:11 <moony> it's funny, really. my e key doesn't like to work, but my d key has no cap and it works better than any other key on my keyboard
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20:55:21 <int-e> seriously, we're doing attribution based on the analysis of a chemical substance... again?
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21:11:27 <moony> Does my WIP golflang's codepage have too many variations of the alphabet yet? No? Ok. https://imgur.com/CqPj0iJl.png
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21:42:31 <esowiki> [[Brain-Flak]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54319&oldid=53658 * Wheatwizard * (+98) Added BrainFlaX86
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23:24:03 <HackEgo> We know nothing about yorick, alas.
23:25:59 <oerjan> @tell Taneb I also think your cache system works, it just took me way too long to remember why
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00:11:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54320&oldid=54318 * Ais523 * (+370) /* Initial clock */ yes, it's for the benefit of rudimentary implementations
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10:49:16 <boily> fungot: was the olist bell rang already?
10:49:17 <fungot> boily: but parenthesis also require shifting, which uses weaker muscles than just pressing the 1 key. :) i was student, ta, and phd student, wanted to use a certain name for one of them
10:49:45 <Taneb> boily: 1114 was rang
10:58:11 <fizzie> Maybe any `Xlist should (in addition to the normal stuff) write the passed-in argument to tmp/Xlist, so that you could have a `Xlist? that returns the most recently listed list.
10:59:44 <Taneb> Do we have a list of lists?
11:00:15 <boily> `` find -type f -name '*list'
11:00:35 <HackEgo> ./bin/stylist \ ./bin/slist \ ./bin/wrlist \ ./bin/dontaskdonttelllist \ ./bin/aglist \ ./bin/ioccclist \ ./bin/erflist \ ./bin/olist \ ./bin/idealist \ ./bin/flist \ ./bin/bardsworthlist \ ./bin/ysaclist \ ./bin/xkcdwhatiflist \ ./bin/makelist \ ./bin/smlist \ ./bin/mlist \ ./bin/listlist \ ./bin/keenlist \ ./bin/FireFlist \ ./bin/makelistlist
11:04:30 <fizzie> They don't all share infrastructure.
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13:50:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54321&oldid=52085 * Ais523 non-admin * (+1682) /* Category proposal: languages designed to be easy to implement in esolangs */ new section
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14:34:51 <esowiki> [[Portable Minsky Machine Notation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54322&oldid=46697 * Ais523 non-admin * (+1) typo fix
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14:50:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Three Star Programmer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54323&oldid=46013 * Ais523 non-admin * (+550) requires unboundedly many cells
14:59:58 <esowiki> [[User:Ais523 non-admin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54324 * Ais523 non-admin * (+354) about this account
15:01:52 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nobody * New user account
15:03:38 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54325&oldid=54310 * Nobody * (+134)
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15:25:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Vein]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54326 * Challenger5 * (+239) Created page with "This language appears to be very similar to Countercall, but not exactly the same. I guess you could say it's in the same... ''vein''? I'm sorry. ~~~~"
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18:20:02 <esowiki> [[MITLML]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54327 * Singingbanana * (+987) Created page with "MITML stands for More Interesting [[Thue]]-like Meta-language. It was created to define languages at ease, sort of like BNF only for the 21st century user. It builds on the i..."
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20:10:07 <int-e> pffft. undocumented instructions.
20:17:33 <int-e> (I got Shenzhen I/O. The most amazing thing so far is the DX300 part. I mean if you look at it as an actual, rather than fictional, piece of hardware.)
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20:29:49 <int-e> the one with three simple I/O pins on one side and 3 digital I/O pins on the other.
20:30:52 <int-e> (the amazing thing from a real hardware perspective is that it works in both directions)
20:41:31 <\oren\_> although I haven't found a use for it using both directins at conce
20:41:38 <esowiki> [[Grawlix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54328&oldid=54250 * DMC * (-54) /* Functions */
20:43:33 <int-e> \oren\_: namely, for the tag game rig
20:45:08 <int-e> \oren\_: which happens to have three simple I/O things to both sides
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20:49:13 <esowiki> [[Bitter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54329&oldid=54251 * DMC * (+18) /* Initialization process */
20:49:17 <int-e> \oren\_: which can be solved with this layout: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/dx300.png (I've erased the code)
20:49:43 <esowiki> [[Bitter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54330&oldid=54329 * DMC * (-1) /* Initialization process */
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20:59:42 <\oren\_> Britain: We know you did it russia, we demand a response in 36 hours
20:59:49 <\oren\_> Russia: *murders another guy in britain*
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04:08:54 <doesthiswork> He might keep releasing rap songs posthumously like Tupac
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08:33:24 <darkmoon> I'm looking for a modified version of brainfuck with more compact code and easier to program, anyone has suggestions?
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09:54:30 <Taneb> I do enjoy being the only person at this Haskell company who was willing to write the one thing we needed in C/C++
09:55:18 <izabera> i do enjoy not working at some haskell company
09:55:32 <Taneb> izabera: do you get to be the only person writing Haskell?
09:55:57 <Taneb> Probably the way to go
09:59:21 <darkmoon> do they use haskell for performance or to get a more reliable business logic or something?
10:00:00 <Taneb> darkmoon, it turns out it's not bad for writing compilers, and it's also not bad for generating HDL
10:00:18 <Taneb> Seeing as we write compilers and generate HDL, it's not a bad language to use
10:00:31 <Taneb> Types are good, we use them a lot
10:02:03 <darkmoon> is it really necessary to use haskell to generate HDL instead of just using an HDL language?
10:03:02 <Taneb> darkmoon: HDL languages aren't very fun to use, we all know Haskell because we use it everywhere else, and it makes it easier to write more general code
10:03:17 <Taneb> darkmoon: we use http://www.clash-lang.org/
10:04:10 <Taneb> Esentially using Haskell as a HDL language
10:04:14 <darkmoon> ah ok. it does look very concise
10:04:18 <Taneb> (hardware description language language)
10:05:16 <shachaf> I'm writing C right now, for no particular reason.
10:05:31 <Taneb> Is it because there's a certain deadline tomorrow?
10:05:56 <Taneb> A deadline that I'm not going to meet because I never quite got around to starting?
10:06:09 <darkmoon> acronyms with included nouns inevitably become ATM machines :P
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10:45:31 <fungot> boily: and i think sicp or something. ;p fnord/ fnord/ fnord/ fnord/ perpet.c
10:45:40 <boily> fungot: fnord fnord fnord fnord fnord fnord.
10:45:41 <fungot> boily: ( xerox: btw, ty),
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10:54:28 <moony> boily: fnord fnord fnord fnord fnord fnord.
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10:54:44 <Taneb> fungot: why can't I build with debug symbols
10:54:44 <fungot> Taneb: gambit will not have that
10:55:03 <moony> Taneb, is -g1 not working?
10:56:16 <Taneb> moony: it doesn't seem like it
10:56:27 <Taneb> I'm worried that it's something to do with using nix here
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10:57:19 <moony> Taneb, what *nix variant? Actual UNIX or Linux
10:57:51 <Taneb> moony: nix as in the build system thingy from NixOS
10:58:09 <moony> no idea, i don't use NixOS ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
10:58:15 <Taneb> (although I'm using it on top of Ubuntu)
10:58:45 <boily> mhelloony. my nostrils are of the finest quality.
10:59:34 <moony> bonjorhellohiholay! (I still need to find a word for hello that has a y in it)
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19:43:31 <int-e> (\(Left xs) -> (# xs #) -> (# xs #)) -- the nice thing about Haskell is that it's so readable. (This is a pattern that I'm thinking about in the context of https://prime.haskell.org/wiki/Libraries/Proposals/MonadFail#Adaptingoldcode )
19:44:38 <int-e> Mainly because the suggestion of using an irrefutable pattern is just awful.
19:47:50 <int-e> (What I want is an "unfailing" pattern in the MonadFail proposal sense that behaves like `Left xs` in a normal context.)
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20:05:52 <moony> The thing i'm stuck on with Haskell is list comprehensions. They just confuse me for whatever reason
20:11:00 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bugmenot * New user account
20:12:53 <shachaf> int-e: I'm not quite sure how to parse that.
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20:14:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54331&oldid=54325 * Bugmenot * (+145) /* Introductions */
20:14:52 <int-e> shachaf: it's a lambda followed by the -> part of a view pattern
20:16:06 <int-e> so somehow, -> is kind of left-associative in that context (never mind that semantically those are two different arrows)
20:16:57 <shachaf> Wouldn't you need more parentheses for that?
20:17:18 <shachaf> If you mean something like foo ((\(Left xs) -> (# xs #)) -> (# xs #)) = ...
20:18:20 <int-e> shachaf: well it turns out you don't
20:18:41 <int-e> and since it is already ugly without the parentheses, I felt spiteful enough to leave them out
20:18:52 <int-e> .... s/without/with/
20:19:02 <shachaf> I must say I find this syntax mildly offensive.
20:20:26 <int-e> it is a true beauty
20:21:15 <esowiki> [[Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54332&oldid=51222 * Bugmenot * (+67) /* External resources */ Linking working interpreter
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22:32:32 <shachaf> Sgeo: Prismata seems to have a campaign now.
22:32:39 <shachaf> Though it seems pretty annoying.
22:33:07 <Sgeo> shachaf, ooh, I'll have to check it out
22:33:11 <Sgeo> Annoying howso?
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22:48:09 <esowiki> [[Alphabet Stew]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54333 * DMC * (+2082) Created page with "'''Alphabet Stew''' ==Concept== * A stack based esoteric programming language with exactly 26 commands * Each command is represented by a single character [a - z] * Numbers [..."
22:49:23 <esowiki> [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54334&oldid=54314 * DMC * (+5)
22:49:45 <esowiki> [[Alphabet Stew]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54335&oldid=54333 * DMC * (+1) /* External resources */
22:50:54 <esowiki> [[Alphabet Stew]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54336&oldid=54335 * DMC * (+1) /* External resources */
22:51:26 <esowiki> [[Alphabet Stew]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54337&oldid=54336 * DMC * (-1) /* External resources */
22:52:46 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54338&oldid=54308 * DMC * (+20) /* A */
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22:54:48 <esowiki> [[Alphabet Stew]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54339&oldid=54337 * DMC * (+56)
22:56:45 <esowiki> [[Alphabet Stew]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54340&oldid=54339 * DMC * (+3)
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22:57:51 <esowiki> [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54341&oldid=54334 * DMC * (-44)
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23:04:03 <ais523> hmm, is a Minsky machine with one counter a PDA? I guess not, it's a bit less powerful than that?
23:04:26 <ais523> like, it can match brackets if there's only one sort of bracket, but I can't see a way to match brackets if there are two of them
23:04:35 <ais523> whereas a PDA can handle both those cases
23:05:46 <int-e> . o O ( "I don't remember anything except that I've been here for a long, long time." :-P )
23:14:39 <ais523> alercah: I meant universal PDA
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23:15:38 <ais523> (also, the formalization of PDAs given on Wikipedia works StackFlow-style, i.e. you must never let the stack become empty, in which case having only one symbol would be entirely useless)
23:16:53 <shachaf> > let f = (+1); hmm (\(f -> f) -> f -> f) = f^f in hmm 4
23:17:52 <alercah> ais523: right but I mean a PDA is just a FSA with a stack
23:17:52 <ais523> what does ^ do on functions?
23:18:01 <shachaf> f is an integer in that case.
23:18:12 <alercah> so a 1-stack minsky machine is a special case of a PDA (modulo your comment aboutempty stacks)
23:18:16 <shachaf> But I figured ^ fit in with the -> theme.
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23:18:27 <ais523> shachaf: and 4 is a function?
23:18:52 <ais523> or, well, that's quite a confusing computation
23:19:29 <ais523> I don't see how 4 matches (\(f -> f) -> f -> f)
23:20:36 <alercah> I don't see how lambdas are accepted in patterns
23:21:08 <shachaf> Is there anything in between one counter and two counters?
23:21:59 <shachaf> I mean, something natural expressed in terms of counters or something similar.
23:22:28 <ais523> shachaf: one stack is intermediate in power between the two
23:22:39 <ais523> you can emulate a counter with a stack and a stack with two counters
23:22:45 <ais523> but then, you can emulate just about anything with two counters
23:26:06 <oerjan> shachaf: that took me too long to figure out and it proves they definitely chose the wrong syntax.
23:26:51 <oerjan> alercah: view patterns
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23:27:32 <shachaf> alercah: View patterns have the pattern syntax "f (g -> x) = ..." meaning "f y = case g y of x -> ..."
23:27:50 <shachaf> And g can be a lambda, which apparently doesn't need parentheses.
23:30:03 <oerjan> > f ((+1) -> (+1) -> x) = x in f 0
23:30:07 <lambdabot> Perhaps you need a 'let' in a 'do' block?
23:30:17 <oerjan> > let f ((+1) -> (+1) -> x) = x in f 0
23:30:54 <ais523> > let f ((+1) -> (+1) -> x) = x in f 1
23:30:55 <shachaf> That should've been obvious but I didn't think about it.
23:31:05 <ais523> wait, I expected to get a match failure there
23:31:21 <shachaf> > let f ((1:) -> (2:) -> result) = result in f []
23:31:29 <shachaf> This is great! It's like a pipeline of operations.
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23:31:36 <ais523> ooh, is it a /nested/ view pattern?
23:31:48 <shachaf> Yes, the thing on the right side of the -> is another pattern.
23:32:00 <shachaf> And this arrow, unlike the one int-e used, is right-associative.
23:32:41 <ais523> that's not obeying normal associativity rules at all
23:33:08 <ais523> to take one of the few right-associative operators in common use, a = b = c assigns c to b, then the result of the assignment to a
23:33:27 <ais523> whereas this is doing the equivalent of prepending 1 to the argument, then 2 to the argument
23:33:28 <oerjan> -> used with types is definitely right associative, and rightly so.
23:33:59 <ais523> so it's evaluating from outside to inside
23:34:18 <shachaf> foo (f -> g -> x) = ... is the same as foo (f -> (g -> x)) = ..., so I'd call itt right-associative
23:34:47 <ais523> hmm, so it's right-associative but inside-out
23:35:06 <ais523> data from the outside, return value on the inside
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04:03:56 <esowiki> [[RAM0]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54342 * Ais523 * (+4699) about time I wrote about someone else's language for a change
04:04:25 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54343&oldid=54338 * Ais523 * (+11) /* R */ +[[RAM0]]
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04:17:43 <ais523> this is probably the first time I've proven a language TC by compiling Three Star Programmer into it
04:18:00 <ais523> it's actually surprising that that doesn't happen more often, it's much easier than BF to implement in languages with random-access memory
04:18:19 <ais523> (err, proven up to the TCness of Three Star Programmer but I'm pretty sure it's TC)
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04:30:40 <ais523> izabera: that sounds painful, the sketch proof goes via cyclic tag
04:30:48 <ais523> I wonder how hard it is to implement BF in cyclic tag
04:38:20 <ais523> @tell oerjan re: Fractran with no deterministic execution order, I believe that's equivalent to Petri nets; apparently it took from 1939 to 1981 before it was discovered to be decidable whether a particular state could be reached, and it's known to be EXPSPACE-hard
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05:52:23 <Ganneffne> THIS IS A FREENODE BREAKING NEWS ALERT!! Hitechcg AND opal ARE GOING AT IT RIGHT NOW WITH A LOT OF FIGHTING AND ARGUING WOW YOU DON'T WANT TO MISS THIS!! TYPE /JOIN ## TO SEE THE ACTION...AGAIN TYPE /JOIN ## TO SEE THE ACTION!!
05:52:23 <Ganneffne> THIS IS A FREENODE BREAKING NEWS ALERT!! Hitechcg AND opal ARE GOING AT IT RIGHT NOW WITH A LOT OF FIGHTING AND ARGUING WOW YOU DON'T WANT TO MISS THIS!! TYPE /JOIN ## TO SEE THE ACTION...AGAIN TYPE /JOIN ## TO SEE THE ACTION!!
05:52:27 <Ganneffne> harryTrout variable sleffy sprocklem imode FreeFull Sgeo__ idris-bot ais523 contrapumpkin Naergon xkapastel nchambers ineiros fractal moei lambdabot aloril danieljabailey izabera clog mniip Yurume_______ wladz pikhq Slereah sparr Lymia Roger9_ shachaf alercah digitalcold grumble incomprehensibly heroux GeekDude dingbat j-bot Gregor brandonson LeoLambda moony olsner joast ocharles vertrex APic fizzie Melva hakatashi zgrepc Vorpal lifthrasiir fungot Bows
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05:52:28 <fungot> Ganneffne: misunderstood. it's late here.))
05:52:54 <fungot> lifthrasiir: the hd probably. i used that once"
05:53:01 <moony> great response, fungot
05:53:01 <fungot> moony: http://www.bloodandcoffee.net/ campbell/ txt/ fluids.txt)
05:53:06 <moony> everyoen give fungot a botsnack
05:53:07 <fungot> moony: x 5 if x 5... then x 5 will return false. many implementations use really different approaches for the same reason its srfi 7 program loader will load srfi 1 ( or not a procedure
05:53:53 <ais523> it's been a while since we had a spambot now
05:54:08 <ais523> as usual, I'd strongly advise against doing whatever they recommend
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05:56:00 <moony> ## isn't really much
05:56:14 <moony> it's a little secret stowaway chat channel
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19:17:37 <esowiki> [[User:ZM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54344 * ZM * (+559) Created page with "This is just a very basic page while I start this. {| class = "wikitable sortable" ! Year ! Language name ! Designed by me? ! Implemented by me? ! More links |- | 2017 | Lege..."
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23:25:55 <HackEgo> 1/2:haiku//🀨や⛄ \ 6 random numbers//4 8 15 16 23 42 \ space//Humans come from space. In particular, the part of space that has Earth in it. \ myname//myname is not your name. You don't know what they are doing. Or you are doing. Or am I? He is Perl's evil twin brother. \ hilter//HILTER is what happens when someone combines argumentu
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23:28:04 <HackEgo> 2/2:m ad hitlerum, shouting, and muphry's law in one glorious clusterfuck.
23:28:49 <shachaf> `` unidecode "$(\? haiku)"
23:28:53 <HackEgo> [U+1F028 MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN] [U+3084 HIRAGANA LETTER YA] [U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW]
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23:51:53 <HackEgo> `hello//`hello prints variants of hello, world. To control format, pass a single letter as command-line argument. "@"=>"hello, world", "H"=>"hello, world.", P=>"hello, world!", "X"=>"hello, world,", take 1 letter later to s/h/H/, 2 letter later to s/d,/d/, 4 letter later to s/w/W/, lowercase to remove newline.
23:51:57 <HackEgo> 1246) <oren> int64_t is too long a name <Jafet> It used to be too long long, but now it's just too long.
23:52:01 <HackEgo> norm//norm is the most confusingly named function in C++
23:52:14 <HackEgo> myndzi//myndzi used to keep us all on our feet.
23:52:20 <HackEgo> 148) * Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo.
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00:36:30 <shachaf> `mkx bin/5?//cmds=($1); for i in {1..5}; do \` "${cmds[$((RANDOM % ${#cmds[@]}))]}"; done
00:36:54 <HackEgo> 1074) <+kmc> my girlfriend served as an adult control subject for some behavioral research on children [...] <+kmc> she did live on psych studies for a year yeah <Jafet> Is there a control protocol where you don't use people who live off being sociology test subjects \ 323//323 is a quine in McCulloch's first machine. \ furryscript//FurryScrip
00:37:17 <shachaf> `sled bin/5?//s/$/ | sport/
00:37:24 <HackEgo> bin/5?//cmds=($1); for i in {1..5}; do \` "${cmds[$((RANDOM % ${#cmds[@]}))]}"; done | sport
00:37:30 <HackEgo> 1/2:quadrilateral//Don't you mean "tetrapleur"? \ 134) <fizzie> It's like mathematicians, where the next step up from "trivial" is "open research question". <fizzie> "Nope... No...This problem can't be done AT ALL. This one--maybe, but only with two yaks and a sherpa. ..." \ flower//flower. what IS a flower? \ cow//A cow is an animal best se
00:37:37 <HackEgo> 2/2:rved at minus zero degrees Celsius. \ page//The smallest floating-point number is known as pages. Fungot discovered it.
00:38:30 <shachaf> `sled bin/5?//s/1/{1:-w q}/
00:38:32 <HackEgo> bin/5?//cmds=(${1:-w q}); for i in {1..5}; do \` "${cmds[$((RANDOM % ${#cmds[@]}))]}"; done | sport
00:38:38 <HackEgo> 1/2:nnection//Nnections are measured in millibytes per siemens. \ 761) <oklopol> i don't get how people are afraid of parachute jumping but they routinely drive a car in fucking traffic \ codo//The codo button is the dodo's undo button. \ 428) <monqy> beautiful summer / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck \ ist//An i
00:38:43 <HackEgo> 2/2:st is an incomplete list.
00:45:29 <moony> Should software written in a interpreted language (and as such ran by software) be called softerware?
00:47:43 <APic> Maybe once LLVM supports it.
00:47:49 <APic> Either as Front-End, or as Back-End,
00:48:10 <APic> LLVM is ingenious.
00:48:24 <APic> (But i still like GNU-Stuffs better because of religious Issues)
01:28:40 <moony> APic, LLVM has a bitcode interpreter already
01:28:54 <moony> so you can interpret your C code, if you really want to do that
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01:36:11 <HackEgo> 1/2:846) <Phantom_Hoover> it's weird hanging around people for whom the northernmost point in the world is nottingham \ just//Just is just a just adverb. \ qc//QC is Quantum Computing. \ homophone//Homophones are pairs of words that sound totally gay together. \ 435) <MDude> Tooth or Bear: Each turn, either take out your own tooth, or wrestle
01:36:38 <shachaf> Hmm, there's no reason to implement 5? this way, this is nonsense.
01:37:28 <shachaf> I think I had something fancier in mind before.
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01:54:19 <zzo38> I have figured out the Hero Mesh file format some more now
02:02:56 <shachaf> Someone should invent a good name for choose.
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04:37:38 <doesthiswork1> Have you ever seen how APL programmers write C? http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Essays/Incunabulum
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09:40:03 <esowiki> [[Meq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54345&oldid=42646 * Oerjan * (+25) /* External resources */ Wayback
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11:41:48 <wob_jonas> fungot, prod HackEgo for me, he's asleep again
11:41:49 <fungot> wob_jonas: next-position is expecting something that is easy to make it
11:43:33 <HackEgo> cmds=(${1:-w q}); for i in {1..5}; do \` "${cmds[$((RANDOM % ${#cmds[@]}))]}"; done | sport
11:43:43 <fungot> wob_jonas: no worries.
11:44:22 <HackEgo> distort "${2:-/dev/stdin}" | spore "${1-1}"
11:44:42 <HackEgo> sport <n> divides its input into irc-sized pieces and displays the nth (default first). The pipe version of `1. See also spore.
11:44:42 <HackEgo> spore <n> stores its input in tmp/spout and displays the nth line (default first). For a version considering irc line lengths, see sport. See also `spam.
11:45:14 <HackEgo> line="${1-$(cat /hackenv/tmp/spline)}"; len="$(awk 'END{print NR}' /hackenv/tmp/spout)"; echo -n "$line/$len:"; sed -n "${line}{p;q}" /hackenv/tmp/spout; echo "$((line<len?line+1:1))" > /hackenv/tmp/spline
11:45:22 <HackEgo> cmd="${1-quote}"; \`^ 5 "$cmd"
11:45:44 <wob_jonas> nice. so I can just pipe into sport.
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12:20:35 <Lymia> Both BFJoust hills are dead?
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13:27:24 <fizzie> Lymia: I've been working on migrating it to esolangs.org, but it's taken longer than expected, probably because I started overengineering some bits.
13:27:32 <fizzie> Lymia: Let me just bring up the zem.fi instance.
13:27:39 <fizzie> (It's down since a reboot.)
13:27:52 <Lymia> I thought this might be the perfect chance to work on that "#1 ever" ranking
13:27:54 <Lymia> Since everything's down
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13:30:32 <fizzie> Just to give some indication as to how far I've gotten from a simple migration, I just finished writing a static website generator with Bazel macros.
13:30:46 <fizzie> It's probably lunchtime. Let me know if it doesn't work.
13:31:00 <fizzie> ...actually, I'm supposed to be getting alerts if it's down. Wonder what happened to those.
14:28:20 <int-e> !bfjoust going-out-on-a-limb <
14:28:52 <int-e> `grwp invalid character
14:35:46 <fizzie> int-e: No, but the command is !zjoust (or !ztest).
14:36:12 <fizzie> (The characters [a-zA-Z0-9_-] are valid.)
14:36:57 <fizzie> If I migrate it to esolangs.org, I may consider changing the command back to !bfjoust, since it doesn't look too likely the codu.org hill is coming back.
14:37:13 <int-e> !zjoust going-out-on-a-limb <
14:37:14 <zemhill> int-e.going-out-on-a-limb: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
14:40:42 <fizzie> In retrospect, I should've tested what's wrong with the alert before I brought that back up.
14:41:22 <fizzie> The alert is based on probing the web endpoint with a POST request in the "test" mode, and checking that returns a 200 status code.
14:41:41 <fizzie> Maybe when it's down it still returns a 200 but with an error message payload.
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20:57:08 <fungot> olsner: before ass'? the tuple approach is an alternative subculture in brisbane. or dark ambient.) emacs is honestly much better
20:59:21 <HackEgo> 451) <elliott> What does "life" actually mean, anyway; it seems to mean "this thing that's infinitely greater than all my actual hobbies that I do all the time because I rule"
21:00:27 <HackEgo> 1/2:hat//hatee-hatee-hatee-hooo \ 686) <itidus21> ok in other words, its a lot easier to reason about 2^43112609-1 apples by using the text "2^43112609-1" than it is to actually produce 2^43112609-1 apples \ 932) <oklopol> my university spam filter thinks it's okay for someone i have never met to discuss "usd 2,142,728.00 dollars" with me and "NE
21:00:31 <HackEgo> 2/2:ED MY HELP" etc. however, inviting me to a conference? such a nigerian thing to do. \ stereotype//A stereotype is a two-channel monotype. \ madness//madness lies thataway.
21:03:57 <shachaf> Cale: index notation is too good
21:13:57 <ais523> I came up with a really promising tarpit design recently and have already proved it TC in my head
21:14:02 <ais523> but I need to work on writing it all down
21:14:06 <ais523> here are the commands:
21:14:43 <ais523> (p initially points to the start of RAM, each element of RAM also initially points to the start of RAM, just like in Three Star Programmer)
21:14:50 <ais523> this is simpler than 3* and also a little easier to prove TC
21:15:22 <wob_jonas> ais523: on https://esolangs.org/wiki/RAM0 , I for one think that a reduction from 3SP is overcomplicating things. It seems obvious that you can directly emulate a pointer machine with writable heap with RAM0.
21:15:40 <ais523> wob_jonas: yes, there's a construction from Minsky Machines shown first
21:15:58 <wob_jonas> For that, you have to program it somewhat like you program a 6502, by keeping all the registers in memory at fixed (low) addresses.
21:15:59 <ais523> the 3* construction is for RAM0-minus-C
21:16:23 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, I mean no bignums either. either of those hurt my sense of computational efficiency.
21:16:39 <ais523> you clearly need at least one bignum
21:16:41 <wob_jonas> ais523: ah, it's for RAM0-minus-C. that's different... hmm
21:16:48 <ais523> because otherwise you can't access unbounded memory
21:16:53 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure, eventually you need arbitrarily large addresses
21:17:03 <ais523> not sure if you can do it with only one, you can almost certainly do it with two
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21:17:35 <wob_jonas> but still, I prefer constructions where you can compile a pointer machine in such a way that the slowdown from the pointer model is only a factor of polylog of the execution time
21:17:40 <ais523> it's not quite obvious you can do it with two
21:18:11 <ais523> wob_jonas: I think RAM0-minus-CZ can implement cyclic tag in time proportional to the original cyclic tag program
21:18:21 <ais523> but presumably you want to implement something faster than cyclic tag
21:18:24 <wob_jonas> and here you can do it easily, you never have to do real arithmetic with bignums, you only have to add small offsets to the pointers to access fields of structures (or of algebraic datatypes or whatever you call them), plus one register that points to the end of the heap for new allocation
21:18:47 <ais523> ooh, making linked lists and the like
21:18:52 <ais523> that's clever, I was wondering how you did arithmetic
21:19:07 <ais523> not being able to decrement things makes arithmetic in RAM0 pretty hard
21:19:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: ok, if you want to remove commands from RAM0 that's different, I wasn't thinking of that
21:19:48 <wob_jonas> ais523: ah, I see. sorry, a pointer machine without call stack, and possibly even with read-only heap, is a very natural model of computation for me
21:19:58 <wob_jonas> even though in practice I do want fast fixed-size integer arithmetic
21:20:03 <lambdabot> ais523 said 1d 16h 41m 43s ago: re: Fractran with no deterministic execution order, I believe that's equivalent to Petri nets; apparently it took from 1939 to 1981 before it was discovered to be
21:20:03 <lambdabot> decidable whether a particular state could be reached, and it's known to be EXPSPACE-hard
21:20:06 <wob_jonas> but for theoretical models I don't care about that
21:20:22 <ais523> oerjan: tarpit I'm working on: I means "(*p)++", D means "p=*p", all bignums are valid memory addresses and valid memory values, memory is initially all-zeroes
21:20:32 <ais523> I believe this is TC (proved it in my head but haven't written it down yet)
21:20:55 <ais523> hmm, how does "p=*p+=n" parse in C?
21:21:17 <wob_jonas> And the pointer machine is what I use a standard for considering the computational model efficient. Ideal is polylog factor slowdown, the lower standard is polynomial slowdown, next lower is exponential, then double exponential.
21:21:35 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think that's how it parses in C, yes
21:21:40 <oerjan> ais523: well maybe reachability is harder than halting, then.
21:21:41 <shachaf> ais523: That's how it parses, but I think it's undefined behavior?
21:22:07 <ais523> oerjan: I think your proof is for worst-case Fractran
21:22:12 <ais523> whereas the problem considered there is best-case Fractran
21:22:32 <ais523> i.e. the difference between always getting a particular state, and getting a particular state with at least one evaluation order
21:23:18 <ais523> shachaf: hmm, it doesn't violate the same UB rule as "i=i++"
21:23:25 <ais523> but it might violate a different one
21:23:57 <ais523> I believe it's defined because the new value assigned to p depends on the old value of p
21:24:09 <ais523> and no other value is being both read or written, or written twice
21:24:42 <wob_jonas> ugh... that strange UB rule in C, I don't remember how it goes
21:24:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: do you assume that p isn't a pointer to p?
21:25:36 <wob_jonas> that can't easily happen in C anyway, because of strong type rules
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21:26:10 <ais523> (although I changed *p to a[p] so that the data types work out)
21:27:19 <shachaf> Hm, maybe it's not undefined.
21:29:00 <ais523> wob_jonas: int a[]; int p; int n;
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21:29:48 <oerjan> if &p isn't something that can be put into the array, it should be fine.
21:30:03 <wob_jonas> ais523: and what are your instructions?
21:30:13 <ais523> wob_jonas: you can view it two ways
21:30:21 <ais523> either as two commands with no arguments
21:30:25 <wob_jonas> p=a[p]+=n sounds nice, but you probably need something else, something that sets n
21:30:33 <ais523> or in an RLE form, in which case we have one command, p=a[p]+=n, and n is its argument
21:30:45 <ais523> i.e. a and p are the data storage, and the program is just a list of values of n
21:30:50 <wob_jonas> I have made an abstract machine somewhat similar to that
21:31:10 <ais523> (this is comparable to 3*, where the instruction is a[a[a[n]]]++)
21:34:58 <esowiki> [[ByteByteJump]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54346&oldid=20135 * Ais523 * (+19) +[[Category: OISC]]
21:35:20 <esowiki> [[MISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54347&oldid=24993 * Ais523 * (+19) +[[Category: OISC]]
21:35:36 <esowiki> [[RSSB]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54348&oldid=46149 * Ais523 * (+19) /* External resources */ +[[Category: OISC]]
21:35:57 <esowiki> [[Subskin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54349&oldid=46019 * Ais523 * (+19) +[[Category: OISC]]
21:36:13 <esowiki> [[Three Star Programmer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54350&oldid=53321 * Ais523 * (+18) +[[Category: OISC]]
21:36:30 <esowiki> [[TOGA computer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54351&oldid=45610 * Ais523 * (+18) +[[Category: OISC]]
21:36:42 <ais523> cat was being used inconsistently, it was on about half the OISCs
21:36:50 <ais523> so I added it to the other half (that are categorised at all)
21:37:37 <wob_jonas> My abstract machine uses self-modifying instructions, with the instructions stored in main memory. Each instruction has two arguments stored consecutively; and there's two memory-mapped registers, IP at 1 and a comparison flag at 2. unsigned a[9999] = {/*program*/}; for(;;) { unsigned s = a[a[1]]; a[1]++; unsigned d = a[a[1]]; a[1]++; a[2] = (a[s]
21:38:33 <ais523> shachaf: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Text
21:38:45 <wob_jonas> That's one where it would be convenient to just write the main loop as a[2] = (a[a[a[1]]] -= a[a[a[1]]]) < 0; but that would result in UB because it's essential for the program to write into the memory-mapped IP
21:39:11 <ais523> shachaf: so yes, it's an esolang in the sense of existing on the wiki, just not a very good one
21:39:14 <wob_jonas> Also, IIRC this model doesn't really need self-modification, because it has double-indirection in the instruction.
21:39:27 <ais523> it does, however, make for a decent benchmark for kolmogorov-complexity challenges on PPCG
21:39:48 <wob_jonas> Nor does it need wraparound, you could use int a[9999]; as the memory and write programs that avoid overflow.
21:40:05 <ais523> wob_jonas: is this some sort of self-modifying 3*?
21:40:20 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, it's much more convenient than that
21:40:34 <ais523> where does the a[a[a[]]] come from then?
21:40:52 <wob_jonas> it allows you to directly do arithmetic subtraction and comparison, as long as you keep a guard bit at the top of the machine word
21:42:32 <wob_jonas> ais523: the outer a[a[]] comes from wanting to allow indirection so you can avoid self-modifying code; the inner a[1] comes because I added a memory-mapped IP so that an instr with 2 as the first operand is effectively a conditional goto that writes the IP iff the comparison in the previous instruction was true
21:43:36 <wob_jonas> since this is an OISC, you need a way to goto. the more elegant way for that is something like subleq, which has a conditional goto built into the instruction semantics. the less elegant one is to have two special memory-mapped registers like here, one for IP and one for the comparison
21:43:46 <wob_jonas> and arrange it for somewhat compact code
21:44:37 <wob_jonas> This model sucks because I invented it way back in 2005, but I can't uninvent it now.
21:45:03 <ais523> it's like a really primitive ancestor of 3*
21:45:09 <ais523> more useful but less elegant
21:45:35 <wob_jonas> I'd rather compare it to the OISCs of the like of subleq and like five other similar ones
21:45:53 <shachaf> oerjan: please delete 5? twh
21:45:54 <HackEgo> 11456:2018-03-16 <shachäf> mkx bin/q//quote "$@" \ 9982:2016-12-15 <oerjän> ` mv bin/q quines/q2 \ 9981:2016-12-15 <oerjän> revert \ 9980:2016-12-15 <oerjän> ` q > quines/q2; rm bin/q \ 2691:2013-04-14 <Jafët> mv {,bin/}q && rm q.c \ 1771:2013-01-25 <Jafët> mv bin/q bin/\\? \ 1768:2013-01-25 <Jafët> echo -e \'#!/bin/sh\\ntopic=$(echo
21:46:04 <shachaf> and thene come up with a good name for choose
21:46:46 <wob_jonas> apparently everyone invents something like this, sometimes with just one instruction, sometimes two or three or four
21:46:48 <shachaf> and then tell me why people call vectors contravariant and covectors covariant twh
21:46:58 <ais523> wob_jonas: well this new language of mine ("I/D machine") is both very 3* like, and an OISC if you run-length-encode it
21:47:28 <HackEgo> Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty kind "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty loud punster is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
21:47:54 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty kind "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty loud hero is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
21:47:55 <wob_jonas> ais523: in the non-RLE form, the commands would be { p=a[p]+=n; n=0; } and { n++; } right?
21:48:31 <ais523> wob_jonas: in the non-RLE form, the commands are { p = a[p]; } and { a[p]++; }
21:48:38 <ais523> no parameters anywhere
21:49:08 <wob_jonas> this isn't supposed to be self-modifying, right?
21:49:21 <ais523> it works in a similar way to 3*
21:49:26 <ais523> but it's not quite the same
21:49:42 <wob_jonas> yes, I think I can see the similarity
21:49:51 <ais523> in the RLE form there's just one command, { p = a[p] += n; }
21:50:10 <wob_jonas> and the commands are in a single for(;;) loop, right?
21:50:56 <wob_jonas> it's sort of like 3SP because you can never decrease the contents of memory cells
21:51:00 <wob_jonas> which really limits how you can use memory
21:51:25 <ais523> irreversible programming
21:51:37 <ais523> although I guess in the RLE form, there's no actual /reason/ to disallow negatiev n
21:51:54 <ais523> other than allowing the language to be converted back into two-command form
21:52:07 <ais523> my TC construction only uses nonnegative n though
21:52:08 <wob_jonas> but wouldn't that make it reversible?
21:52:38 <wob_jonas> I mean, it's still a tarpit that way, and I don't really see how you program it, probably you need some crazy construction like for 3SP
21:52:39 <ais523> it's not reversible in the sense of, say, BackFlip, because it's possible for two elements of a to have the same value
21:52:45 <ais523> so you can't reverse it because you don't know which it came from
21:53:03 <ais523> the construction is very similar to the TC construction for 3*, but simpler (and thus easier to prove)
21:55:09 <wob_jonas> Totally different topic. I was reading the story of Fingon and Maedhros in the Silmarillion. These two were best friends who got separated at the burning of the Teler ships, Maedhros being Feanor's eldest son and taking the ships, Fingon taking the hard route.
21:56:25 <wob_jonas> Then Maedhros got captured, and Morgoth made an example of him, chaining him on a tall mountain peak from one of his wrists, sort of Prometheus style, which apparently a first age elf can survive for a long time.
21:58:22 <wob_jonas> Then Fingon decided to both play a hero and show forgiveness for Feanor's sins in a long-shot attempt to reconcile the conflicts amongst the Noldor under the oath, and he decided to try to rescue Maedhros.
22:00:26 <wob_jonas> And the interesting part of the story is, since Morgoth has caused permanent magical darkness on his lands, Fingon had to find Maedhros by sound. So Fingon took his harp and started to sing, then listened to where Maedhros sang back from.
22:02:08 <wob_jonas> Which is another example showing that "harp" doesn't only mean these huge bulky modern orchestra instruments that you have to carry with a truck and tune for hours before the concert starts, but apparently also older portable stringed instruments.
22:04:35 <wob_jonas> Is there a trope on Tvtropes for when you find someone by their singing, as opposed to them just shouting or crying for help?
22:06:44 <wob_jonas> I've been watching Steven Universe, and the season 1 finale has an example of this.
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22:08:14 <wob_jonas> A prisoner who has the opportunity to break out from her cell wants to find her best friend. They were both captured but separated to different cells, and she finds her by following her singing voice.
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22:08:54 <wob_jonas> In that case only one of them is singing, not both like in Fingon's story.
22:08:59 <zzo38> I have access to All The Tropes wiki, but do not know what to look up, to find such things, unfortunately
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22:10:07 <wob_jonas> zzo38: probably a mention of Maedhros and Fingon and the Silmarillion and Saphire singing in a Steven Universe episode
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22:13:31 <zzo38> I looked up [[Steven Universe]] and see nothing about that (but maybe I did not look clearly enough)
22:13:56 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yes, it doesn't seem to be mentioned in SPOILERS http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Recap/StevenUniverseS1E49JailBreak
22:14:37 <wob_jonas> let me start to search for Fingon and Maedhros instead
22:15:13 <wob_jonas> Oh, I forgot to mention it, but Fingon is the eldest son of Fingolfin. The story makes a bit more sense that way.
22:15:19 <Lymia> fizzie, PR to chainlance, btw
22:16:44 <wob_jonas> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/HoYay/TheLordOfTheRings makes a mention of the episode, but doesn't name a trope for finding someone by singing
22:17:13 <zzo38> What is the most number of moves that would ever be possible in a reachable chess position?
22:18:17 <wob_jonas> zzo38: hmm, I seem to remember someone has considered that problem, and probably solved it, or at least gave very good bounds
22:18:56 <wob_jonas> zzo38: a similar question: https://www.chess.com/forum/view/fun-with-chess/what-chess-position-has-the-most-number-of-possible-moves
22:19:21 <wob_jonas> asks for no promoted pawns, probably because extra queens could increase the number
22:19:59 <wob_jonas> zzo38: also https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/5mazmo/what_is_the_legal_chess_position_where_white_has/
22:20:47 <zzo38> I though want to know the answer with promoted pawns.
22:21:30 <wob_jonas> the latter asks that, but I'm not sure it gives a definitive answer, doesn't seem like many people looked in that thread
22:22:03 <wob_jonas> zzo38: this seems more definitive: https://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com/Encoding%20Moves#MoveIndex
22:22:40 <wob_jonas> gives references to two or three other older disc'n threads
22:22:54 <wob_jonas> I'd look there if you want an answer. that considers promoted men too.
22:23:49 <zzo38> That last two looks same except the position of the king
22:24:40 <zzo38> However, it answers the question, so, that is good
22:24:43 <wob_jonas> do they get the same number? if so, I don't think that's a problem
22:24:50 <wob_jonas> is there a proof that it's optimal?
22:25:04 <wob_jonas> do they give a draft proof that it's optimal?
22:26:19 <wob_jonas> (I'm not asking if there exists a proof in the mathematical sense, there definitely exists an exponential time brute force one)
22:27:31 <ais523> :t \a -> (a (\b c -> b)) (\x y z -> (x z) (y z))
22:27:33 <lambdabot> ((p1 -> p2 -> p1) -> ((t1 -> t2 -> t3) -> (t1 -> t2) -> t1 -> t3) -> t4) -> t4
22:28:09 <ais523> :t let i = \a -> (a (\b c -> b)) (\x y z -> (x z) (y z)) in (i i)
22:28:11 <lambdabot> p -> (t1 -> t2 -> t3) -> (t1 -> t2) -> t1 -> t3
22:28:23 <ais523> hmm, that doesn't look right
22:28:39 <zzo38> I don't know if there is a shorter proof. I looked at those webpages and they don't mention such a thing
22:28:42 <ais523> :t \a -> a (\x y z -> (x z) (y z)) (\b c -> b)
22:28:44 <lambdabot> (((t1 -> t2 -> t3) -> (t1 -> t2) -> t1 -> t3) -> (p1 -> p2 -> p1) -> t4) -> t4
22:28:53 <ais523> :t let i = \a -> a (\x y z -> (x z) (y z)) (\b c -> b) in (i i)
22:28:55 <lambdabot> • Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type:
22:29:05 <ais523> that is, oddly, more plausible
22:29:58 <ais523> although still not what I expected
22:30:14 <ais523> that said, I wouldn't expect Iota to work in a strongly typed language anyway
22:30:30 <fizzie> Lymia: I don't know if wrenchlance is the best tool, but it's a reasonable enough feature, so sure.
22:30:48 <ais523> fizzie: I've lost track of the various lances
22:30:52 <ais523> although I'm happy that they're being discussed
22:30:59 <wob_jonas> ais523: for an infinite type occurs check, the compiler has some freedom in what error message it gives exactly, so it needn't be what you expect, right?
22:31:04 <zemhill> ais523: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
22:31:09 <fizzie> ais523: That's very reasonable, I have to look them up in the README too.
22:31:26 <wob_jonas> In fact I think even for a conflicting type constructors type error, the compiler has that freedom.
22:31:45 <shachaf> Someone should make an esolang based on abstract index notation for general functions rather than just linear ones.
22:31:46 <ais523> hmm, this nyuroki2 thing seems new
22:31:52 <Lymia> fizzie, what'd you use to achieve that?
22:32:35 <shachaf> It could be an interesting syntax. You label all the inputs and outputs to each function, and they get connected together if you use the same name.
22:32:56 <shachaf> Like some sort of dataflow graph? Maybe a language like this already exists.
22:33:10 <wob_jonas> shachaf: um, what do you mean by abstract index notation? not just de Bruin indexes to encode lambda calculus terms like Real fast Nora's hair salon 2: shear disaster download right?
22:33:43 <shachaf> wob_jonas: No, I mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_index_notation
22:33:51 <shachaf> Which is like a basis-free version of Einstein index notation.
22:34:18 <shachaf> `? real fast nora's hair salon 3: shear disaster download
22:34:20 <ais523> Lymia: have you documented your new winner on the wiki?
22:34:27 <HackEgo> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is the most readable functional programming language out there.
22:34:40 <Lymia> Nor the autogeneration shenanigans
22:36:39 <wob_jonas> correction, it's spelled De Bruijn index
22:37:10 <shachaf> Instead of writing f(x,y), you write f_i_j x^i y_j
22:37:33 <shachaf> Or x^i f_i_j y^j or something, it's commutative.
22:38:38 <ais523> Lymia: is the trail to beat margins? or is there some other reason for it?
22:38:44 <shachaf> Where the ^k represents the output
22:39:03 <shachaf> Function composition can be written like f_i^j g_j^k
22:39:43 <wob_jonas> shachaf: is that just naming all the intermediate results in expressions, like you have to do in prolog?
22:40:09 <shachaf> I haven't really thought it through.
22:40:12 <fizzie> Lymia: gearlance's threaded-code implementation has (generally, anecdotally) outperformed the fancier lances. It's got two "multi-program" binaries, gearlanced (which I use to run the hill, though the interface it has is terrible) and genelance. I guess for a really really big hill your mileage may vary.
22:40:17 <fizzie> Lymia: I've thought about running the "every distinct program in the repository history" tournament, assuming the O(n^2) for that is feasible, but never got around to it.
22:40:23 <shachaf> Maybe this syntax would make more sense for dealing with linear types.
22:40:59 <shachaf> Since a single value x^i^j isn't really the same as a pair of values x^i and y^j, it has more information.
22:42:00 <shachaf> (You can always go from x^i and y^j to z^i^j = x^i y^j, but not in the other direction in general.)
22:43:23 <Lymia> ais523, I've completely forgotten. :D
22:43:37 <ais523> this is why I document my winners soon after they win :D
22:43:55 <Lymia> fizzie, I'm getting ~11000 programs
22:44:04 <ais523> margins is weird anyway, it tries to win by winning on tape length 10 and drawing everything else
22:44:07 <wob_jonas> fizzie: are programs in repository history the ones that got on the leaderboard?
22:44:24 <wob_jonas> or ladder or whatever it's called noe
22:44:46 <shachaf> wob_jonas: This is all very clear with tensors but it's not quite as clear what it would mean in other contexts.
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22:45:24 <fizzie> wob_jonas: It's everything submitted in non-test mode, because the operating logic on the zem.fi hill is that whenever you submit something, you always get on the hill (replacing the current worst program, or the previous version if using the same name).
22:46:02 <Lymia> The current version of Nyuroki's similar to margins, in that it makes bets on tape length, I guess. It wins tape lengths ~10-12, loses ~13-16 (by suicide), and wins ~17+. Against some bots, it starts losing again on very long tapes.
22:46:23 <fizzie> I think the codu.org hill had some special-casing so that you had to get a non-worst result in order to get permanently committed.
22:46:25 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Maybe string diagrams are a good way to think about it.
22:46:30 <Lymia> 11000 is after normalization, so.
22:46:52 <shachaf> A single object with two lines coming out of it can be more things than two separate objects with one line each.
22:47:05 <fizzie> Lymia: Where are you getting these programs from?
22:47:05 <wob_jonas> although if it's too many, you could filter them to exclude programs that only appeared in the bottom one or two ranks
22:47:31 <Lymia> fizzie, A merge of egobot and zemhill
22:48:03 <wob_jonas> whatever do you call positions on a ladder?
22:49:46 <boily> it can't be right if it's rung.
22:49:53 <wob_jonas> "rung" seems right from a dictionary, but I didn't even remember passively that that noun existed
22:50:18 <Lymia> ais523, looking at it, it's mostly a numbers adjustment
22:50:51 <fizzie> There's a lot of terminology in BF Joust. In the overengineered esolangs.org reimplementation, I'm using "duel" for a single match between two programs with a specific tape length and polarity; "joust" for the results of two programs with all 42 tape/polarity settings; "bout" for the results of one program against everyone else on the hill; and "tournament" the whole matrix. Not sure if those exactly
22:50:55 <wob_jonas> can they be called "step"? if not, does that work for the positions in a flight of stairs at least?
22:50:57 <fizzie> match standard terminology.
22:50:57 <ais523> it's nice that things like nyuroki can still do well
22:51:07 <fizzie> (And of course there's kettle/sieve.)
22:51:08 <ais523> wob_jonas: that works for stairs, also for stepladders
22:51:15 <ais523> I don't thnk it works for regular ladders
22:51:20 <ais523> fizzie: that terminology makes no sense :-D
22:51:28 <Lymia> It uses faster rushes when it detects a decoy conflict (rather than the small ones it used to), and I replaced the flag repair with an outright one-time probabilistic lock
22:51:39 <fizzie> Step's possibly reasonable for a metaphorical ladder though.
22:51:50 <ais523> Lymia: ooh, I'm glad probabilistic locks are catching on
22:51:52 <wob_jonas> what's the difference between a stepladder and a regular ladder?
22:52:00 <fizzie> ais523: Words are arbitrary.
22:52:15 <Lymia> IIRC, I made sure to time it exactly when a 2-cycle clear that skips all the decoys would clear.
22:52:24 <ais523> wob_jonas: it's easiest to tell from a photo, you might want to try an image search
22:52:33 <ais523> but a stepladder is basically like a very aspect-ratio-distorted set of stairs
22:53:02 <ais523> an arithmetic sequence of flat surfaces, highly offset vertically, slightly offset horizontally
22:53:10 <ais523> you can stand on a single step of a stepladder if you have good balance
22:53:38 <ais523> also, stepladders are nearly always V-shaped, having a "stand" at the back, so that you can place them in the open and all the steps will be at the right orientation
22:54:03 <ais523> regular ladders tend to be an arithmetic progression of small cylinders that it'd be very hard to place anything on, and work in a much wider range of orientations (including horizontally)
22:54:17 <wob_jonas> ais523: that latter, from an image search, a stepladder seems to be A-shaped so you don't have to lean the top to anything, it stands on four legs
22:54:18 <ais523> but you normally have to hold onto them at multiple locations to keep your balance
22:54:34 <wob_jonas> but that's two different differences
22:54:35 <fizzie> "First-time buyers: reaching for that first rung" (regarding the "property ladder", which is also sort of non-physical).
22:54:37 <ais523> wob_jonas: right, that's one of the properties that stepladders usually (always?) have
22:54:53 <ais523> fizzie: now I'm imagining a physical property ladder
22:55:01 <ais523> ideally a stepladder so that the houses don't fall off :-D
22:55:16 <wob_jonas> one property is wide vs narrow beams to step on, the other is back legs at the bottom
22:55:36 <wob_jonas> for getting onto cellars, we usually use ladders that have wide steps but don't have a back leg
22:56:15 <ais523> if a ladder is permanently fixed to a particular location, it's considered a ladder even if it has wide steps and not narrow rungs
22:56:22 <ais523> if it isn't, I'm not sure there's actually a term for it, that's rare here
22:58:13 <wob_jonas> there's still like three different kinds of these cellar laddres, (1) completely fixed to the building like stairs, might be called stairs, the difference being that the steps don't have a vertical back part, (2) simple ladder that has two legs at the bottom and is leant to the edge of the opening, and only friction at the bottom stops it from slid
22:59:11 <wob_jonas> (3) hinged or collapsible ladders that are fixed at the top, so the top holds all of the ladder's own weight and some of your weight, although you lean them on the floor for support when in use
23:02:47 <Lymia> The anti-defense loop is now a 7-cycle instead of 5-cycle too
23:03:48 <wob_jonas> Lymia: write all that in the source code as comments and nominate a new version so this useful info gets saved in a convenient place?
23:04:35 <Lymia> ais523, I think ([-+..--])*2 is more sound than it seems. Since it comes after an offset clear, there's no way a defense program's synched to it. So, the average flag value will drift over time, while the anti-defense loop tries (most) combinations of two of +-. over its execution.
23:04:48 <\oren\> ais523: a phyisical property ladder would be a tiered city like the movie version of minas tirith
23:04:54 <Lymia> Meaning if it was the flag, it should have already won by the time it observes two zeros.
23:05:43 <ais523> Lymia: yes, that sort of clear loop is fairly good as counter-defence
23:06:07 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
23:07:51 <Lymia> ... I do have an idea for a real improvement that isn't just numbers
23:08:21 <Lymia> A decoy clash is also some evidence that the enemy is doing a reverse decoy setup, thus, stealth3's decoy skipping is a good idea. :D
23:12:06 <Lymia> Really, I'm not sure it's worth a writeup for "Numbers were tuned, it now goes faster when it can" :p
23:13:47 <wob_jonas> wait, I think there are two more updates to Abstruse Goose
23:14:03 <wob_jonas> `aglist http://abstrusegoose.com/581
23:14:09 <HackEgo> aglist http://abstrusegoose.com/581: b_jonas shachaf
23:14:21 <shachaf> I thought you deleted that.
23:15:45 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I can't follow which ones I deleted, and I think I'm allowed to use deleted ones too, they're still greppable in the logs
23:16:10 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I think there's one I used but never even created, one of ehlist or bobadventureslist
23:16:35 <HackEgo> 11364:2018-02-28 <wob_jonäs> forget ehlist \ 7216:2016-03-14 <b_jonäs> learn ehlist is update notification for the Everyday Heroes webcomic. http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/
23:16:44 <HackEgo> 11365:2018-02-28 <wob_jonäs> rm bin/ehlist \ 7215:2016-03-14 <b_jonäs> `` echo b_jonas >> bin/ehlist \ 7214:2016-03-14 <b_jonäs> makelist ehlist
23:17:13 <wob_jonas> I think I invoked bobadventureslist several times
23:17:23 <wob_jonas> it updates so rarely that it's worth
23:20:25 <shachaf> oerjan: whoa, you're editing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_index_notation
23:28:58 <shachaf> oerjan: I just realized that abstract index notation is just a text syntax for string diagrams.
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23:55:35 <\oren\> "thirteen percent of the U.S. population consumes pizza on any given day."
23:58:30 <\oren\> https://www.ars.usda.gov/ARSUserFiles/80400530/pdf/DBrief/11_consumption_of_pizza_0710.pdf
00:00:28 <wob_jonas> \oren\: ah, that says 13% of the population aged over 2 years. that's a bit less than 13% of the population.
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00:11:30 <boily> is a pizza a sandwich?
00:11:53 <HackEgo> Pizza is a kind of rhubarb pie made without rhubarb.
00:20:57 <Lymia> fizzie, it's running :)
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00:22:21 <Lymia> https://i.imgur.com/edAFCgg.png :D
00:24:08 <Lymia> What's the computational complexity of matrix scoring?
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00:24:20 <Lymia> Is a 11000x11000 matrix a problem
00:25:20 <Lymia> ... so, one multiplication is 1.331×10¹² operations? :(
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00:26:20 <wob_jonas> But in bfjoust, don't you just score programs by adding up their scores in all duels, and ranking them by the total?
00:27:43 <wob_jonas> doesn't seem to explicitly say. it says how a match is scored, but not how a program is scored on the hill depending on its match scores.
00:28:23 <Lymia> That's the raw score
00:28:44 <Lymia> There's a matrix algorithm (similar to pagerank) that is less sensitive to a lot of similar "garbage" programs
00:30:56 <wob_jonas> if you want something like pagerank, which computes the eigenvector for the largest eigenvalue or something, I believe on a 11000x11000 matrix you can get a good machine precision approximation in waitable time on modern machines
00:31:09 <wob_jonas> but you'd have to ask the people who work with large matrixes if you want to be sure
00:31:23 <wob_jonas> the theoretical asymptotic complexity is less relevant
00:34:29 <Lymia> http://zem.fi/bfjoust/internals/
00:34:32 <Lymia> Algorithm's discussed here
00:39:10 <fizzie> Sorry about the broken MathJax, by the way.
00:39:27 <fizzie> It's also going to be fixed by the migration. :)
00:39:46 <Lymia> Is it practical to calculate on 11000x11000?
00:40:24 <Lymia> I'm not familiar with heavy math on lots of data like this
00:42:25 <wob_jonas> your "lots of data" is usually someone else's "small dataset" though
00:42:49 <fizzie> My guess is "yes, but you might need to be slightly more clever than the page implies".
00:43:17 <fizzie> It's not like we're doing PageRank by multiplying billion-times-billion matrices either.
00:43:47 <Lymia> wob_jonas, they have more processing power and memory than a 2014 laptop though
00:44:04 <fizzie> (Of course the BF Joust scoring matrix is dense, unlike the adjacency matrix of the interweb.)
00:44:07 <Lymia> Relative to my resources. :D
00:44:30 <wob_jonas> fizzie: yes, but luckily being clever is easy here, because there are libraries with highly optimized and reliable functions for this kind of numerical computation
00:44:41 <wob_jonas> you can off-load the cleverness to those existing libraries
00:45:04 <fizzie> Yes, I meant the general "you", not the specific "you".
00:45:29 <fizzie> (The existing implementation the hill runs on is decidedly not clever.)
00:48:12 <Lymia> I don't actually know matrix math
00:48:20 <Lymia> explain all this about eigenvalues :D
00:49:25 <Lymia> 208/10844 warriors done so far
00:50:13 <wob_jonas> Lymia: for pagerank, you have a square matrix a with nonnegative elements. a(i,j) tells how much page i says that page j is cool. pagerank assumes that cool pages are to be trusted more for telling what other pages are cool.
00:51:39 <wob_jonas> if you wish, you can consider that an iteration process, where in first approximation, an all-ones vector is your guess of coolness, and in each step, you update it like c:=a*c, and that's a matrix multiplication, so the new coolness approximation says how cool pages are according to pages that are cool per the previous approximation.
00:52:55 <wob_jonas> but this process will converge (if you also normalize the vector for constant multiplications) to a coolness vector that satisfies the equation c=a*c, and that c is the eigenvector for the largest eigenvalue of a
00:53:36 <wob_jonas> for a competition, you might want to do something similar, in that you consider a program cool if it often beats cool programs.
00:54:06 <wob_jonas> but there's some freedom in how you want to convert match scores to the elements of a
00:54:17 <wob_jonas> they have to be positive, but still there's more than one way
00:54:36 <wob_jonas> and of course you can use algorithms less dumb than the simple pagerank
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00:56:16 <fizzie> Yes. Note that you don't *have* to do what's now called "Markov scoring" -- the codu.org "traditional" scoring is easier to compute, and still has some degree of giving you more score for beating stronger opponents.
00:56:47 <wob_jonas> you can also do some sort of multiple-round elimination tournament for that
00:57:22 <wob_jonas> like, in each round, rank by the total of some function of the match scores, then eliminate a number of the lower ranking players, the rest advance to the next round
00:57:24 <fizzie> I'm going to go patch in the MathJax changes to the zem.fi copy, it's ridiculous how broken that page is.
00:57:50 <wob_jonas> in later rounds you only have better programs, so the ranking starts to indicate how programs perform against thsoe
00:58:07 <wob_jonas> this is the traditional solution for competitions where matches are random and costly, like a lot of human sports
00:58:18 <wob_jonas> a traditional solution, not the only one
00:58:25 <shachaf> oerjan: https://twitter.com/shachaf/status/974811286474129408 hth
00:58:47 <wob_jonas> mind you, it's optimized not only for getting a good final result, but also for making the later rounds more interesting to watch
00:59:04 <wob_jonas> which we might not care about because bfjoust isn't really a spectator sport
01:00:08 <wob_jonas> imagine a bfjoust tournament as a spectator sport, with programs playing live in a stadium in front of thousands of viewers, some famous reporter commentating on them, and the whole thing broadcast live in television
01:00:26 <fizzie> There, the https://zem.fi/bfjoust/internals/ page should be unbroken again.
01:00:48 <zzo38> Then some famous reporter should learn bfjoust if they want to make the comment of it.
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01:04:34 <wob_jonas> And then there'll be heated debates among fans about duels where a program supposedly cheated, or the referee was unfair, or about which historical rules changes that have ruined the game forever.
01:05:18 <zzo38> The computer can do it automatically so that you do not need to worry if the program is cheated. Arguments about historical rule changes can still be possible though.
01:05:30 <fizzie> "That flag was definitely zero for two cycles there!"
01:06:15 <wob_jonas> zzo38: or you can consider it cheating if someone optimizes their submission too specifically against the current leading programs
01:08:14 <zzo38> O, I suppose they can argue about if they can consider that cheating, too, but don't they do such a thing in Magic: the Gathering anyways? If the card isn't banned then it isn't cheating. And if it is making a tournament on the television then they don't know anyways what is the other program, to know what to submit or not
01:08:18 <Lymia> fizzie, I'd want markov scoring
01:08:27 <Lymia> Mostly because "all programs ever" is going to be full of steaming garbage
01:09:31 <Lymia> ais523 is going to be sad if margins3 has a garbage rank because no markov scoring :P
01:10:54 <wob_jonas> zzo38: more importantly, it's not the program that'd be cheating, but the people who write the program, and it's not so absurd to imagine a spectator sport where players *write* bfjoust programs, it's only absurd to watch a spectator sport where the programs are already present and battling each other
01:11:47 <fizzie> Lymia: Well, the tweaked traditional scoring is more margins3-friendly, if not quite as friendly as Markov scoring.
01:13:32 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Yes, and it is what I meant, you have to write a program. And you also have to agree to appear on the television in order to do so.
01:13:34 <fizzie> Anyway, the Markov thing should really be doable for that size.
01:13:36 <Lymia> Nyuroki's a better middle ground on the idea, I guess. It tries to win on score and markov by giving up 2-5 tapes lengths per program
01:13:45 <Lymia> I want to give margins a fair chance since it's clever
01:14:24 <zzo38> But I really don't know if it can ever work as a television show; I just gave some idea to improve it in case it ever was.
01:15:37 <wob_jonas> zzo38: right, but the point is, since the matches itself won't be spectator sport, there's not much point optimizing the scoring method to one where people can see lots of interesting matches live
01:16:03 <wob_jonas> that's where I started this comment, although I got carried away
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01:17:21 <HackEgo> Evil overlords do evil acts like taking over the world, kicking puppies, and changing their own wisdom entries.
01:17:49 <wob_jonas> Do they also hover over the masses?
01:18:41 <HackEgo> bfjoust is a spamming tool for #esoteric.
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01:43:29 <HackEgo> K-2SO \ Darth Bane \ Vice Admiral Amilyn Holdo \ Greedo \ General Armitage Hux
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01:44:38 <wob_jonas> Hmm, eventually I'll have to update this with characters from the movie this year. I think we already know the name of two significant ones.
01:45:37 <Lymia> 10% done with the cranklancing :D
01:45:47 <wob_jonas> Also, I should consider advancing starwars so that it can pick the alternate names like "Darth Vader" and "Darth Sidious", but still know that it's the same as the other name for the same character and not pick the two together when there's a numeric argument.
01:46:00 <wob_jonas> The current state where it just never says "Darth Vader" is boring.
01:46:27 <Lymia> So, about 14 hours for the whole hill
01:47:41 <Lymia> 1100 matchups per second
01:47:49 <Lymia> .. doing the math backwards
01:47:50 <fizzie> Lymia: You're using the crank now, instead of the gear? I think that's going to generate an unreasonable number of statistics.
01:48:20 <fizzie> The names aren't confusing at all, what do you mean.
01:49:35 <Lymia> You can support a hill of 1000 warriors
01:49:43 <Lymia> Giving 1 second per new submission
01:49:59 <Lymia> I should benchmark gearlance too
01:50:57 <wob_jonas> doesn't it sort of depend on what submission it is? for a submission that draws by timing out a lot, computing matches might take longer.
01:51:40 <fizzie> At least the cycle counts (which probably correlate pretty well with real time) vary quite a lot, yes.
01:51:43 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/bfjoust/vis/cycles/
01:52:15 <Lymia> 3.9Grun/evaluation_tmp/
01:52:19 <Lymia> The cost of wrenchlance
01:52:22 <Lymia> IDK if it's worth it
01:53:12 <Lymia> But I've already started
01:53:20 <fizzie> Lymia: If you ran a tournament of 11000 programs with cranklance, it would generate 913 GiB of statistics in the compact GearTalk packed format.
01:53:43 <Lymia> -rw-r--r-- 1 lymia lymia 1.1G Mar 16 20:53 evaluation.txt
01:53:52 <Lymia> This is my dump of matchup matrixes straight to disk
01:53:58 <Lymia> because I don't have enough memory to store it in RAM
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02:26:12 <esowiki> [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54352&oldid=54037 * Qwertyu63 * (-3225)
02:34:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:Number Factory]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54353 * Qwertyu63 * (+161) Created page with "3snoW, thank you for taking the time to play around with Number Factory. --~~~~"
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02:39:47 <Lymia> fizzie, I'm thinking of running cranklance for a "top 200 ever" or something
02:41:00 <Lymia> "Canonical name" of a program is the first ever appearance of it.
02:41:57 <Lymia> Then, recursively remove the top program by markov scoring, and all other programs with the same canonical name, find first again
02:42:02 <Lymia> To get the top 200 distinct programs
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02:49:16 <Lymia> fizzie, minor complaint "Conceptually, each program is allocated a uniform score" <- it doesn't say what the uniform score to begin with is
02:50:37 <Lymia> "Let p(a) be the stationary distribution reached from the uniform initial distribution. To get numbers more closely approximating the traditional scores, we set the Markov score s_a of a program to s_a=1000*p(a)." < Doesn't this only make sense with a certain starting value?
02:59:40 <esowiki> [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54354&oldid=54352 * Qwertyu63 * (+6)
03:01:12 <fizzie> Lymia: Well, the word "distribution" implies \sum_a p(a) = 1. But it's true that the description is maybe a little vague.
03:01:44 <Lymia> .... is a fixed 1000*p(a) actually correct?
03:01:58 <Lymia> Would the scores go wonky on a 11000 program hill?
03:02:05 <Lymia> (Smaller or larger than the 50 program hill)
03:02:13 <Lymia> I don't know how I should expect it to theoretically behave
03:02:29 <moony> we need to revive redcode or something
03:02:42 <moony> it's fun to write redcode programs, but all the various hills are barren
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03:03:33 <fizzie> Lymia: I would expect them to be much smaller, assuming there is a large group of reasonably large programs.
03:03:59 <Lymia> Was redcode "solved"?
03:04:23 <fizzie> ...s/reasonably large/reasonably good/. I don't know what I was thinking.
03:04:26 <moony> honestly, why not try and remake it or something?
03:04:59 <moony> The R16K1S60 (a computer built in a game, The Powder Toy) has a nice RISC instruction set that could be modified into a program useful for that kind of thing
03:05:51 <moony> i suspect redcode stagnated
03:05:54 <Lymia> I'm not sure which BFJoust is
03:05:59 <moony> it's not really possible to make a ultimate solution for it
03:06:23 <Lymia> We've figured out most of the major strategies (seemingly) already, so everything remaining kinda has a fixed metagame.
03:06:24 <moony> programs can modify eachother's sourcecode, so it makes sense why that's not possible
03:10:20 <fizzie> Lymia: The factor of 1000* really comes from the fact that on a hill of size 47 (which is what ours is), the average p(a) is by definition 1/47 = 0.021, multiplying by a 1000 makes that a 21 which is a "reasonable" number.
03:12:30 <fizzie> By the way, there's a degenerate case for the Markov scoring -- if you do manage to evolve that program that wins against the entire current hill at all tape lenghts and polarities, it will get a score of 1000 and all the others will get a score of 0.0, which will make the sorting somewhat unstable.
03:17:06 <fizzie> Another fun equivalent view to understand the scoring is that it's just the probability distribution for which program you end up standing on, if you do a long enough random walk and choose your steps with the probabilities t_a,b.
03:18:44 <moony> If only stuff like redcode and bfjoust didn't stagnate so fast ):
03:19:28 <Lymia> I did put that program on the hill
03:19:30 <Lymia> I just took it off
03:19:38 <Lymia> Because it was very unresistant to programs it never saw
03:19:43 <Lymia> And it was fouling up the hill
03:19:58 <fizzie> Oh, I forgot it did happen.
03:20:07 <fizzie> Kind of happy it didn't break any worse then.
03:21:02 <fizzie> "Lymia.kiseki: points 45.83, score 999.98, rank 1/47" right.
03:21:18 <Lymia> I think that version bad a bug
03:21:23 <Lymia> I did get the 46.00
03:21:44 <fizzie> Oh yes, it's a few lines later.
03:23:49 <Lymia> Probably a good thing
03:23:53 <Lymia> That it only converged to 999.98?
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03:54:23 <moony> i wonder if befungejoust could be a thing
04:08:55 <Lymia> How many variations of leonid__lols.bfjoust are there
04:08:57 <zzo38> One way to compress a chess game recording in the computer is to enumerate all possible moves and determine how many bits is needed, and then figure which mode is made and then record that number using the number of bits needed. But then there is also such thing to consider as resigning, drawn game, and annotations.
04:09:23 <Lymia> zzo38, I believe this is called huffman tree compression
04:09:56 <Lymia> Or, well. idk, maybe arithmetic coding
04:11:24 <zzo38> Actually it isn't; a real Huffman tree does not have any unusable codes, because they are shortened in that case.
04:14:38 <zzo38> Another alternative would be to use a large number, and then to figure how many possible moves, divide by that number and the remainder indicates the current move and the quotient is then used to repeat this for the next move. However, I don't know how difficult/complicated that might be.
04:22:16 <zzo38> (And because Open Game is common, it might be worth to assign a code specifically for that case.)
04:23:02 <Lymia> how much more efficient is it over just .tar.xzing the whole thing
04:24:18 <zzo38> Yes, and I don't know. Still it needs to compress some sort of format, probably PGN.
04:34:18 <Lymia> Probably PGN is good enough
04:34:27 <Lymia> .tar.xz can even compress things like very common openings
04:34:42 <Lymia> A very compact initial coding like that might be worse
04:34:53 <Lymia> Because it inhibits general compression from seeing other useful patterns
04:36:06 <zzo38> If it is solid compression then yes you can compress common openings easily, I think. I don't know how .xz is working, but with DEFLATE at least it helps to not pack things in individual bits and to use bytes instead.
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06:36:38 <esowiki> [[I/D machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54355 * Ais523 * (+4064) new language; this page is unfinished but it's worth posting what I have so far
06:38:09 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54356&oldid=54343 * Ais523 * (+18) /* I */ +[[I/D machine]]
06:38:34 <esowiki> [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54357&oldid=54024 * Ais523 * (+17) +[[I/D machine]]
06:47:12 <moony> ais523, nicely done
06:48:20 <moony> i'm going to go implement that in the R16K1S60, just for fun. it's so simple
06:58:22 <esowiki> [[I/D machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54358&oldid=54355 * Ais523 * (+81) /* One-command view */ clarify the implicit-loop nature of this
06:58:47 <ais523> thanks to RAM0 for getting me thinking along these lines
07:05:45 <esowiki> [[OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54359&oldid=52673 * Ais523 * (+173) /* List of OISCs */ +[[I/D machine]]
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07:28:28 <moony> ais523, i don't quite get how the I/D machine is turing. It's kinda mystical to me
07:30:03 <moony> But it's also amazingly easy to implement. https://hastebin.com/udulefubup.pl
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07:53:28 <zzo38> When it ask to enter your name for the high score, why won't this game let you to type numbers?
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08:43:07 <zzo38> Not only the high score but also the save games. And punctuation doesn't work either.
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08:54:25 <SopaXorzTaker> I've invented a program to convert asm-like expressions to brainfuck
08:54:44 <zzo38> OK, did you post it?
09:15:04 <moony> SopaXorzTaker, bragging is a bannable offense
09:15:24 <SopaXorzTaker> also, needs some fixup with relative addressing inside of loops
09:23:31 <SopaXorzTaker> fun stuff: you can do an LDA to load a cell address
09:24:55 <SopaXorzTaker> like, it's not possible to know how much should it be decremented by
09:26:19 <zzo38> There is the possibility to do if you store stuff in between cells to be able to deal with addressing
09:59:22 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sane theinsane * New user account
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11:08:35 <esowiki> [[Haddock]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54360&oldid=54146 * Zzo38 * (-23) Correct the category
11:12:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:I/D machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54361 * Keymaker * (+2612) Some notes.
11:13:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:I/D machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54362&oldid=54361 * Keymaker * (+86) Forgot to sign.
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11:15:32 <lambdabot> PAMR 171053Z 00000KT 10SM SCT018 OVC050 01/01 A3002 RMK AO2 SLP168 T00060006
11:22:45 <lambdabot> ESSB 171050Z 34008KT 9999 SCT033 M02/M10 Q1031 R30/19//59
11:27:58 <esowiki> [[HashHell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54363&oldid=49065 * Zseri * (-108)
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11:47:44 <Lymia> -rw-r--r-- 1 lymia lymia 9.8G Mar 17 06:12 evaluation.txt
11:47:51 <Lymia> finished the 11000 program BFJoust hill
11:52:47 <ais523> how long did it take to run?
12:05:27 <Lymia> Now to try and crunch it @.@
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14:26:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54364&oldid=54331 * Sane theinsane * (+121)
14:27:16 <esowiki> [[Hatemath]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54365 * Sane theinsane * (+1264) Created page with "== ABOUT hatemath == '''hatemath''' is an esoteric programming language that was created by Saketh Suresh in 2018.The language uses 8 commands 1 for printing, 3 for telling th..."
14:32:37 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54366&oldid=54356 * Sane theinsane * (+15) /* H */
14:57:12 <esowiki> [[Stack Up]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54367&oldid=52518 * Qwertyu63 * (+4)
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16:45:03 <Lymia> https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/006aa5aa00a0b1547970406dc22d524645ca9b30.txt
16:45:11 <Lymia> "Best ever in bfjoust", raw scores
16:46:09 <Lymia> This is with no 'best in class' algorithms/etc, so
16:46:24 <Lymia> Lots of duplicates for the people who optimize on ladder
16:50:08 <Lymia> Kiseki is in the garbage where it belongs, at least
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17:07:10 <oerjan> . o O ( shachaf is on twitter? )
17:08:16 <Lymia> fizzie, https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/a92e2a22c2a1d9fa3cee559fd50d4cce7f7d1c03.txt Evaluations done. :D
17:08:20 <Lymia> Now to try and do Markov on this
17:08:25 <Lymia> .tell ais523 https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/a92e2a22c2a1d9fa3cee559fd50d4cce7f7d1c03.txt
17:08:31 <Lymia> ... or whatever it was
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17:45:14 <Lymia> @tell ais523 https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/a92e2a22c2a1d9fa3cee559fd50d4cce7f7d1c03.txt
17:48:01 <esowiki> [[User:ZM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54368&oldid=54344 * ZM * (+124)
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17:57:01 <esowiki> [[User:ZM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54369&oldid=54368 * ZM * (+417) More information overall
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18:03:51 <esowiki> [[User:ZM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54370&oldid=54369 * ZM * (+285) remembered one more
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18:04:03 <Lymia> Let's see how long numpy.linalg.eig takes
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18:06:48 <esowiki> [[User:ZM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54371&oldid=54370 * ZM * (+104)
18:07:02 <esowiki> [[User:ZM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54372&oldid=54371 * ZM * (+0)
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18:24:06 <Lymia> iterative method it is
18:24:19 <zzo38> Is it possible to use ftell() on /dev/null?
18:24:20 <Lymia> iterative multiplication hoping for a fixed point
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18:39:58 <esowiki> [[BFJoust]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54373 * B jonas * (+22) Redirected page to [[BF Joust]]
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18:41:15 <esowiki> [[BF Joust]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54374&oldid=46768 * B jonas * (+18) Many call it "BFJoust" in chat
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18:45:58 <wob_jonas> BFJoust syntax doesn't have an abbreviation for conditionals like [p s ]q s where s never terminates, right? I'm asking because nesting about 20 such conditionals, one for each cell that might be the flag, could be useful, but fully expanded the code could get too big if there's other nontrivial stuff in there.
18:46:06 <Lymia> zemhill_rc9c2a0e.Lymia_nyuroki2.bfjoust: nan
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18:46:32 <Lymia> wob_jonas, no such syntax
18:47:40 <wob_jonas> zzo38: and your password isn't allowed to contain colons or stars?
18:48:45 <wob_jonas> Lymia: ask on #eigen for the matrix computation stuff. wait, let me join there too. or you can ask here if you wish.
18:48:52 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Why shouldn't it be allowed to contain whatever bytes I want it to contain (with the possible exception of nulls and line breaks)?
18:48:59 <Lymia> wob_jonas, that nan is probably an infinity :D
18:49:05 <Lymia> I severely screwed up the matrix construction
18:49:18 <zzo38> What password exactly do you mean anyways?
18:49:21 <wob_jonas> zzo38: it should. but there's at least one system that doesn't allow colons, and the old services of freenode converted stars to percent signs in passwords
18:49:47 <wob_jonas> zzo38: none in particular, just reacting to that stuff about no digits allowed in the high score table player names
18:50:44 <zzo38> For IRC, you can presumably prefix it with a colon if it needs to contain colons or spaces (but again it should then still be allowed to contain anything other than nulls and line breaks)
18:51:07 <wob_jonas> zzo38: no, the irc didn't have a problem with colons, that was a different system
18:51:16 <wob_jonas> it had a problem with stars vs percent signs for some reason
18:52:36 <wob_jonas> also in bfjoust, the star syntax requires the parenthesis, so I can't just write +*119 or +119 or something like that, right?
18:53:34 <zzo38> Presumably it should be stored hashed to avoid such a problem, but even so presumably when it checks what is your password it can do the same transformation on it if it is really necessary. Still, yes it is a bad idea if you can't contain colons and stars. Also some things have too short maximum length for password. And sometimes is even worse; on field is limited another isn't and if you type too many it is error
18:53:54 <Lymia> Good luck getting anything on the current hill
18:53:56 <zzo38> I have used roman numbers to write the date on the high score if you can only type letters and spaces. Some games automatically include the date so I can just leave the name blank.
18:54:00 <wob_jonas> zzo38: luckily that problem has been solved since the old services are retired
18:54:27 <wob_jonas> Lymia: I heard bottom step of the hill is free
18:54:46 <Lymia> Maybe I should say
18:54:51 <Lymia> "For more than 3 cycles"
18:55:53 <zzo38> ATM passwords and sometimes if you need a password for a credit card or debit card for payment, are limited usually to four digits I think, and I think four digits password is a too short limit; the maximum should be at least ten digits
18:56:54 <Lymia> https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/11d469b058a069d13dbc9a2f166fcfdad82964a8.txt
18:57:01 <Lymia> my implementation of matrix scoring does not appear correct
18:58:58 <fizzie> Those are pretty big numbers.
18:59:08 <fizzie> Well, and small as well.
19:00:01 <fizzie> I like how there's one in the middle that's about 0.
19:01:52 <fizzie> Lymia: Here's the Eigen-based iterative code I have in my reimplementation -- no guarantees, but at least for the current hill it produces identical results, modulo some roundoff.
19:03:13 <fizzie> (And a good sanity check for the t matrix is that all the numbers in it are in [0, 1].)
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19:03:57 <Lymia> matrix[a, b] = the number of times a loses to b / tape lengths * program count?
19:04:06 <Lymia> matrix[a, a] = everything that's left
19:04:50 <fizzie> Well, s/tape lengths/tape configurations/. And everything that's left = everything in that row. But yeah.
19:05:13 <Lymia> I wonder if I'm transposing the matrix by accident, actually
19:05:52 <fizzie> That's easy to do, but probably shouldn't lead to crazy results.
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19:07:55 <Lymia> Because of how I stored the evaluation data
19:08:00 <Lymia> (Since it won't fit easily in memory)
19:08:10 <Lymia> I dumped it to disk as a list of matchups in arbitary order
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19:25:43 <Lymia> https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/0d97c3e1f9f5a9d659e9bf7ca53ce78c12977fef.txt
19:25:54 <Lymia> But something seems off and I can't quite put my finger to it
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19:46:00 <wob_jonas> oh! I'm at the top among the always-losing submissions!
19:48:16 <wob_jonas> also, my highest scoring submissions are called "test" and "nop2" for some reason
19:48:42 <Lymia> https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/07f660a8951390b91961ad5fceddf72405d17841.txt
19:49:55 <Lymia> This is probably somewhat messed up
19:50:03 <Lymia> By the presence of many repeated copies of the same bots
19:51:15 <Lymia> fizzie, could many copies of the same very high scoring bots mess up markov scoring?
19:55:07 <Lymia> @tell ais523 Full hill markov scoring, no cleverness: https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/07f660a8951390b91961ad5fceddf72405d17841.txt
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20:02:33 <wob_jonas> Lymia: you could try taking only the latest version of each name
20:02:44 <Lymia> I'm going with the best version of every name
20:02:46 <Lymia> Rather than latest
20:02:55 <wob_jonas> how do you tell which one is the best?
20:04:13 <wob_jonas> or you could compute a ranking by taking the current hills, and checking the total score of matches of every submission against only the forty-something on the current hill
20:04:50 <Taneb> Or making a huge hill with every submission ever on it
20:06:00 <Taneb> Am I right in thinking BFJoust is non-transitive?
20:06:12 <Taneb> It's possible for A to be beat B and B to beat C and C to beat A?
20:08:40 <wob_jonas> just like any involved game really
20:09:02 <Taneb> Just like Europa Universalis 4
20:10:02 <Lymia> "1467 distinct programs."
20:10:51 <Taneb> What's the program (of those not designed to lose instantly) with the most names?
20:12:25 <Lymia> I'll have to do separate analysis on that
20:12:43 <Taneb> Ah, don't worry about that (at least not for my sake)
20:13:37 <wob_jonas> I mean, in any game that is made of interactive matches between two players (or teams), like chess or curling or tennis, it would be a miracle if the matches happened to be transitive. It's just that in most games, like football, the matches are also so random that the randomness masks the nontransitivity.
20:13:46 <moony> I wish there were more things like bfjoust and redcode. bfjoust already has an established meta, nothing really to improve, and redcode just stagnated
20:14:17 <wob_jonas> moony: it's not true that there's "nothing really to improve". there are improvements, it's just that the game is hard so few people will take the time.
20:14:26 <wob_jonas> moony: you can play Magic: the Gathering though if you wish
20:14:43 <moony> Don't even have magic. ):
20:15:45 <Lymia> https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/265a0683258ed734d9dd0bbe1ee6e3a807a20d29.txt
20:15:54 <Lymia> The list with only the top for each name
20:15:58 <Lymia> Now to rerun markov on these
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20:20:33 <wob_jonas> !zjoust blindbigdecoy http://dpaste.com/0KV7DFJ.txt
20:20:34 <zemhill> wob_jonas.blindbigdecoy: points -30.50, score 4.06, rank 47/47
20:21:13 <Lymia> !zjoust better_yet .
20:21:14 <zemhill> Lymia.better_yet: points -33.43, score 2.81, rank 47/47
20:21:23 <Lymia> !zjoust better_yet (+)*-1
20:21:24 <zemhill> Lymia.better_yet: points -14.67, score 8.32, rank 47/47 (--)
20:29:12 <wob_jonas> !zjoust bigdecoy http://dpaste.com/2SSQY79.txt
20:29:13 <zemhill> wob_jonas.bigdecoy: points -29.36, score 4.36, rank 47/47
20:30:22 <Lymia> this is so irrelevant
20:30:32 <Lymia> I won't bother adding it to the all programs listing
20:30:50 <wob_jonas> sure, that's not why I'm submitting it
20:56:36 <Lymia> @tell ais523 Markov scoring on the best version (based on the preliminary markov screening) of every program ever: https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/9b087fcbb87874c1560f7b4cc742ed4c6db03330.txt
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21:11:10 <Lymia> !zjoust test (.) *-1 <
21:11:11 <zemhill> Lymia.test: points -33.43, score 2.81, rank 47/47
21:11:16 <Lymia> !zjoust test (.) * -1 <
21:11:16 <zemhill> Lymia.test: points -33.43, score 2.81, rank 47/47 (--)
21:11:18 <quintopia> is there a good fun community for code golf now that PPCG is old and strict and stodgy?
21:11:20 <Lymia> !zjoust test (.) * - 1 <
21:11:20 <zemhill> Lymia.test: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (--)
21:11:27 <Lymia> !zjoust test (.) * 100000 <
21:11:28 <zemhill> Lymia.test: points -33.43, score 2.81, rank 47/47 (--)
21:11:31 <Lymia> !zjoust test (.) * 10000 <
21:11:31 <zemhill> Lymia.test: points -36.38, score 2.61, rank 47/47 (--)
21:11:33 <Lymia> !zjoust test (.) * 10 000 <
21:11:34 <zemhill> Lymia.test: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (--)
21:11:40 <Lymia> quintopia, strict and stodgy?
21:17:56 <zzo38> Well, there is anagol
21:18:27 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like index notation?
21:18:30 <zzo38> You could also try to implement something on a Unusenet server
21:20:20 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes I think it can be help
21:29:56 <shachaf> zzo38: do you prefer <| |> notation
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21:31:33 <zzo38> It depend what you are doing, different notation is good for a different purpose
21:33:11 <wob_jonas> is the left side or the right side conjugated?
22:09:01 <Lymia> !zjoust david_werecat_MV_validation https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/b6d44f4009c66ef79421827d35ea0077da2c5f9c.txt
22:09:05 <zemhill> Lymia.david_werecat_MV_validation: points 12.40, score 33.38, rank 7/47
22:09:06 <Lymia> !zjoust david_werecat_MV_validation <
22:09:07 <zemhill> Lymia.david_werecat_MV_validation: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-40)
22:11:42 <Lymia> !ztest best_nyuroki >>>>>>>>[(>[(-)*10[+].[-].]---)*21]++<[>(>[(-)*10[+].[-].]---)*21]--<[>>(>[(-)*10[+].[-].]---)*21]+<[>>>(>[(-)*10[+].[-].]---)*21]--<[>>>>(>[(-)*10[+].[-].]---)*21](+)*51<(-)*51<(-)*51<(+)*51<(-)*19>>>>>(-)*10>(+)*10>(-)*10>(+)*10(>)*6(>[(-)*10[+.].[-.].]---)*21
22:11:42 <zemhill> Lymia.best_nyuroki: points -5.00, score 16.28, rank 33/47
22:12:47 <Lymia> @tell ais523 This is very much not representative of the current hill, BTW. The Nyuroki at the top there is a old weird one-line variant.
22:29:54 <Lymia> @tell ais523 It gets rank #33 on zemhill ladder.
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22:44:36 <esowiki> [[I/D machine Turing-completeness proof]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54375 * Ais523 * (+13417) probably more than half a proof that the I/D machine is Turing-complete; not finished yet
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22:49:09 <lambdabot> Lymia said 5h 3m 54s ago: https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/a92e2a22c2a1d9fa3cee559fd50d4cce7f7d1c03.txt
22:49:09 <lambdabot> Lymia said 2h 54m 1s ago: Full hill markov scoring, no cleverness: https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/07f660a8951390b91961ad5fceddf72405d17841.txt
22:49:09 <lambdabot> Lymia said 1h 52m 32s ago: Markov scoring on the best version (based on the preliminary markov screening) of every program ever: https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/9b087fcbb87874c1560f7b4cc742ed4c6db03330.
22:49:09 <lambdabot> Lymia said 36m 21s ago: This is very much not representative of the current hill, BTW. The Nyuroki at the top there is a old weird one-line variant.
22:49:11 <lambdabot> Lymia said 19m 14s ago: It gets rank #33 on zemhill ladder.
22:50:16 <ais523> Lymia: I'm not surprised the results are different when you put a large number of bad programs onto the hill, being able to beat bad programs effectively is an important skill then
22:50:43 <Lymia> Shouldn't Markov scoring minimize that effect?
22:51:06 <zzo38> How is Markov scorig working?
22:52:15 <ais523> zzo38: basically, the score of your program is equal to a weighted average of your results against each other program; the average is weighted by the other program's score
22:52:31 <ais523> this is something of an infinite regress in the definition but it's possible to resolve it so that the score swork
22:52:45 <ais523> Lymia: I'm not sure; most bad programs will randomly beat a few good programs
22:52:58 <ais523> and with so many of them on the hill, it's possible that good programs are being underrepresented in terms of the weights
22:54:12 <ais523> a good example in my programs is slowpoke (very effective against less well engineered programs) doing much better than anticipation (which fails outright against many programs as I had to delete a lot of unused cases to fit it under the size limit)
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22:55:49 <ais523> think about it this way: the best programs score no more than 100, but a bad program will score 8 or so
22:55:57 <ais523> and there are more than 12½ times as many bad programs as good ones
23:05:00 <Lymia> Maybe I could try cutting all programs with <0 score
23:07:35 <Lymia> Is it bad that this hill values robustness over "strength"?
23:09:08 <fizzie> Lymia: I think I only allow extra whitespace between the * (or %) and the beginning of the number, not inside the number.
23:09:44 <Lymia> I was testing for a compactor :D
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00:29:14 <esowiki> [[User:ZM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54376&oldid=54372 * ZM * (+61)
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00:45:24 <shachaf> Cale: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/2002/01/UsingTensorDiagrams.pdf is too good
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01:53:27 <ais523> hmm, what are the best verbs to use for the basic queue operations?
01:53:45 <ais523> I normally use "push" and "shift" because it's what Perl does (and because "pop" is ambiguous with stacks)
01:53:50 <ais523> maybe there's a better option, though
01:53:54 <ais523> I don't like "enqueue"/"dequeue", it's too verbose
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01:59:24 <esowiki> [[I/D machine Turing-completeness proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54377&oldid=54375 * Ais523 * (-4) err, actually I need a different initial state for the cyclic tag construction to be easily understandable
02:00:36 <fizzie> There's the receive/send pair, but that can feel too network-y.
02:03:11 <fizzie> C++ std::queue just uses push/pop even though it's a queue, and I don't mind that. (And of course STL sequence containers have the full set of {push,pop}_{front,back}.)
02:04:49 <fizzie> I didn't want to complicate the discussion with that.
02:05:11 <shachaf> Oh, I didn't see that there wasa a discussion above.
02:05:25 <shachaf> I assumed you just said it out of the blue. I guess that's not a good assumption.
02:07:22 <fizzie> I think something used enq/deq, which sound good if you like gratuitous abbreviation.
02:08:21 <shachaf> Hmm, you could use fancy operator overloading in C++.
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02:08:50 <shachaf> Well, what I wanted was q << x and x << q
02:08:56 <shachaf> But I guess you can't do that.
02:14:26 <fizzie> You couldn't get the associativity right to do "x << y << z << q" though.
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02:21:22 <fizzie> Wonder if some people actually do template <typename T> std::ostream& operator>>(const T& x, std::ostream& s) { return s << x; } "for flexibility".
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02:23:09 <wob_jonas> Yeah, as fizzie points out, C++ uses push_back and pop_front
02:23:58 <wob_jonas> You mentioned push and shift, as well as enqueue and dequeue.
02:24:54 <doesthiswork> Ha! I've gotten farther in J, I will soon be master of the array!
02:26:16 <wob_jonas> pop_front and push_back is apparently also what the rust standard library uses, for the std::collections::vec_deque::VecDeque class
02:26:33 <fizzie> There's also the pretty generic add/remove, which is what java.util.Queue does. (Though it also does offer/poll for the non-exception case.)
02:26:51 <wob_jonas> and for the std::collections::linked_list::LinkedList too
02:29:19 <wob_jonas> "<fizzie> There's the receive/send pair, but that can feel too network-y." => wait, I have a list of these. not for the actions, but for names of the sides.
02:29:40 <zzo38> We should require making up new puzzle sets specifically for use with Free Hero Mesh, in order that some free puzzle sets can be distributed with it. (The puzzles do not necessarily have to resemble Hero Heart at all.)
02:29:51 <fizzie> POSIX message queues use send/receive.
02:30:27 <wob_jonas> host / guest; master / slave; server / client; remote / local; passive / active; Alice / Bob; backend / frontend; engine / ?; ? / user; attacker / defender; request / response; produce / consume; implement / specify; provide / require; sock / peer (as in getsockname / getpeername); source / destination (for direction of flow); send / receive (for d
02:30:27 <wob_jonas> irection of flow); female / male (for hardware plugs).
02:30:55 <fizzie> Most of these have also a third word for the "look but don't remove" operation (front, peek, element, head, ...).
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02:37:44 <wob_jonas> You can also use append instead of push. Or you could use arrow operators, of which there are two styles:
02:38:25 <wob_jonas> the C++ style where if v is your queue then (v << x) pushes x and returns the queue, and (v >> x) pops into x and returns the queue;
02:38:52 <wob_jonas> and the Golang style where IIRC (v <- x) pushes x, and (<- v) pops an element and returns it, but I'm not sure
02:39:56 <esowiki> [[I/D machine Turing-completeness proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54378&oldid=54377 * Ais523 * (+7449) /* Compiling cyclic tag to ErrorBucket */ complete the proof
02:40:50 <esowiki> [[I/D machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54379&oldid=54358 * Ais523 * (-190) /* Computational class */ now proven
02:42:10 <ais523> in a way that hopefully people but me can understand
02:42:32 <ais523> (actually I'd made a mistake in my previous proof but it was easily fixed)
02:44:03 <wob_jonas> Yes, I just checked, the Golang syntax is indeed what I said above
02:46:46 <wob_jonas> apparently python arrays use append and remove
02:48:03 <wob_jonas> put and get is another possibility
02:52:30 <zzo38> In order to implement a puzzle game on Free Hero Mesh, the rules must be followed: It must be played on a 2D rectangular grid with neither dimension greater than 64. It must be mathematically considered as a pure function taking the current state and a key code, and the result is either the new state, or a win, or a loss. The number of commands must be not too much.
02:54:48 <HackEgo> Long is the Chinese word for dragon.
03:01:03 <fizzie> Python lists use "append" to add to the end, and don't provide a no-argument "remove first item", possibly because it's not O(1). (There's ".pop(0)" if you really want.)
03:01:37 <wob_jonas> Recapping. In perl: push(@v,$x); $x=pop@v; In ruby: v.push(v); x=v.shift; # append works instead of push
03:01:55 <fizzie> Python's collections.deque uses append, appendleft, pop, popleft for the operations C++ calls push_back, push_front, pop_back and pop_front, respectively.
03:03:13 <wob_jonas> In C++: v.push_back(x); x=v.front(), v.pop_front(); In golang: v<-x; x = <-v;
03:04:40 <wob_jonas> In rust: v.push_back(x); x = v.pop_front().unwrap();
03:05:30 <wob_jonas> For network stuff like the unix socket api, send and recv are used. Apparently nobody likes enqueue and dequeue.
03:05:54 <fizzie> Your Ruby example names the methods for Array, which I don't think is really fair.
03:05:56 <wob_jonas> Read and write also works for unix files and sockets.
03:05:57 <fizzie> There is a dedicated Queue class in Ruby core, and that one uses push (aliases enq and operator <<) and pop (aliases deq and shift).
03:06:25 <fizzie> I think it was Ruby where I got the cute "enq" and "deq" from.
03:06:27 <zzo38> In JavaScript: v.push(x); x=v.shift(); It is similar to the examine with Ruby except you need parentheses after "shift". (Also you wrote "v.push(v)" and I thought it is supposed to be "v.push(x)" like I have?)
03:06:53 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yeah, it's suppsed to be v.push(x) in ruby
03:07:13 <fizzie> I'll push myself to the sleep queue, and won't shift out until later, bye.
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03:54:44 <zzo38> The only temperature of my computer that I can see with Linux is the temperature for te hard drive. (There are no drivers for the other temperature sensor, although the CMOS setting menu will display it.)
03:58:35 <zzo38> But I don't know what temperature should be considered reasonable?
04:00:19 <moony> zzo38, definitely not the 90c my laptop reaches 2/7
04:02:36 <zzo38> Yes, I know that, but that only is what temperature is not reasonable, and does not indicate which one is reasonable.
04:03:29 <moony> also, it sometimes reaches 100c. So uh
04:03:36 <moony> dont buy HP laptops, they have shit cooling
04:10:37 <zzo38> OK. (Although I am not using a laptop computer anyways)
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04:39:13 <zzo38> Finally, now Free Hero Mesh can read class codes from .MB files.
04:42:40 <zzo38> (It still does not include the ability to execute them, although it can convert them into its own format.)
04:48:21 <zzo38> (The .MB file stores compiled byte code, and then it is decompiled every time you want to edit it. Free Hero Mesh stores the source code so that you can format it as you wish, and it works differently too. The byte code is RPN, although the source language used by EKS isn't; Free Hero Mesh uses a RPN format source language too though, since it is easier to convert and implement this way.)
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05:07:12 <zzo38> Yes. I made up a Fossil repository of what I have so far (which isn't much, yet)
05:07:38 <zzo38> The Fossil repository is: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/heromesh.ui/
05:12:48 <zzo38> You can write other comments, complaints, questions, suggestions, etc.
05:13:20 <ais523> huh, I really like the proof that Chaitin's constant is normal
05:14:09 <ais523> the argument is that knowing the first n bits of Chaitin's constant allows you to solve halting problems of programs whose length is at most n bits
05:14:18 <ais523> and this solver has some fixed, finite length
05:14:55 <ais523> now, suppose Chaitin's constant is compressible; you can then take a compressed representation + decompressor + solver and the resulting program will be able to solve its own halting problem, which is impossible
05:15:27 <ais523> thus, Chaitin's constant must be incompressible; but if it wasn't normal, you could make use of the bias to come up with a working compression scheme
05:16:34 <zzo38> Yes, I like that too, it look like good to me
05:18:06 <zzo38> (Although I am not sure that maybe there might be a few steps missing?)
05:19:05 <zzo38> (I will look up again Chaitin's constant on Wikipedia; maybe I forgot something else)
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05:19:34 <ais523> I'm not sure it's valid; what concerns me is that the proof kind-of assumes that you know what Chaitin's constant /is/ (at least to that length), but by definition it's impossible to calculate
05:21:59 <zzo38> It does look to me probably a few steps missing
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05:41:26 <moony> I/D still gets me confused
05:52:46 <ais523> does the proof page help? at least slightly?
05:53:24 <ais523> doing the 3* proof helped me understand this one
05:53:41 <ais523> you can think of the language as being vaguely similar to 3* with the difference that you have no easy way to get back to zero
05:54:09 <ais523> so you need to maintain a NULL at the end of each of your pointer chains so that you can get back to 0 just by spamming dereferences
05:54:28 <ais523> that means that when you write a pointer, you write it pointing slightly off-centre, then mutate it just before you read it
05:54:45 <ais523> hmm, somehow I doubt this explanation is helping much
05:57:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:I/D machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54380&oldid=54362 * Ais523 * (+668) r to Keymaker
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06:12:23 <esowiki> [[I/D machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54381&oldid=54379 * Ais523 * (+291) let's give this a trivial impl just so it's Implemented; it's pretty easy to implement, after all
06:13:02 <esowiki> [[I/D machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54382&oldid=54381 * Ais523 * (-2) /* RAM0 */ be a bit clearer about the interpreter/compiler distinction
06:35:29 <esowiki> [[Hatemath]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54383&oldid=54365 * Sane theinsane * (+40)
06:44:23 <esowiki> [[Hatemath]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54384&oldid=54383 * Sane theinsane * (+1976)
06:53:26 <esowiki> [[Hatemath]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54385&oldid=54384 * Sane theinsane * (+238)
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06:57:53 <esowiki> [[Hatemath]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54386&oldid=54385 * Sane theinsane * (-2121)
06:58:59 <esowiki> [[Hatemath]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54387&oldid=54386 * Sane theinsane * (+1)
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07:26:39 <esowiki> [[NTFJ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54388 * Conor O'Brien * (+3372) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=NTFJ |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:Conor O'Brien]] |year=[[:Category:2016]] |memsys=stack-based |class=:Category:Unknown computational class|..."
07:27:29 <esowiki> [[NTFJ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54389&oldid=54388 * Conor O'Brien * (+45)
07:27:53 <esowiki> [[NTFJ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54390&oldid=54389 * Conor O'Brien * (+1) typo fix
07:43:23 <esowiki> [[User:Conor O'Brien]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54391&oldid=54012 * Conor O'Brien * (+885) /* Languages I have made */ add more languages
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07:44:22 <esowiki> [[User:Conor O'Brien]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54392&oldid=54391 * Conor O'Brien * (-53)
09:40:28 <esowiki> [[MITLML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54393&oldid=54327 * Singingbanana * (+6)
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12:55:54 <fungot> boily: might have something like " eof?") and i don't have
12:56:07 <boily> fungot: no EOF on your nose?
12:56:07 <fungot> boily: yacc is used in playstation to read fake games too with java.))
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12:56:31 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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16:47:55 <HackEgo> GautamS_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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19:19:34 <danil> (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^
19:26:08 <GautamS> my faith in esoteric languages came after i saw a C to brainfuck compiler
19:26:14 <GautamS> the pinnacle of the human race
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19:32:19 <fizzie> ^ul (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^
19:32:19 <fungot> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/*******************************************************/*****************************************************************************************/********************************************************************************* ...too much output!
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21:25:03 <HackEgo> 1/2:earth//Topologically speaking, the Earth has been a coffee mug ever since that hole to China was dug. \ roujo's relevant info//That information is stored in an unnamed metal cabinet in one of the top floors of an obscure administrative building with a number that you probably never heard of. \ hallucination//You are just imagining this wi
21:25:05 <HackEgo> 2/2:sdom entry. \ hand injuries//Hand injuries are surprisingly common among webcomic writers, see eg. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2314 or http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0864.html \ wfraatw//A WFRAATW is a well-founded recursive acronym akin to "WFRAATW".
21:30:29 <esowiki> [[I/D machine Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54394&oldid=54378 * Ais523 * (+0) /* Compiling ErrorBucket to the I/D machine */ fix an instance of the old startup routine
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21:32:59 <oerjan> . o O ( is that recursion really well-founded )
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21:37:39 <danil> thanks! I wanted to use fungot!
21:37:39 <fungot> danil: how do you dispatch on the types of variables?
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21:39:29 <boily> helløœrjan. all recursion is well founded; some may take a little bit more resources to compute.
21:45:15 <oerjan> . o O ( did danil fail fungot's test like in the holy grail )
21:45:16 <fungot> oerjan: why not? oh i see. i generally do, too. true is xy.x, false is tc if the commands: and can take a few.
21:46:26 <oerjan> i suspect true is not tc, although one never knows with GNU programs.
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21:59:01 <wob_jonas> oerjan: oh yes, I love that scene. "It can't be a gold cup." takes cup that is gold-plated from the inside "This is a carpenter's cup."
21:59:25 <wob_jonas> true example for http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HollywoodHomely
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22:04:15 <oerjan> wob_jonas: not that holy grail
22:04:55 <wob_jonas> oh, you mean like the "what's your favourite color?" one?
22:05:17 <wob_jonas> but he would have said "Aaaaargh!" rather than "Erm?..." if he failed that
22:15:35 <boily> will they be back?
22:27:32 <boily> them who got scared by the fungot.
22:27:33 <fungot> boily: fnord/ fnord).) there is no shift within it is simply cps w/ certain reductions performed
22:27:37 <boily> fungot: fnord fnord.
22:27:37 <fungot> boily: but one i can go back, there are
22:28:05 <fungot> wob_jonas: it included very sophisticated interactive evaluation debugging facilities, undo dwim features fnord, a perl script
22:30:10 <fizzie> fungot: Stop scaring people, it's not nice.
22:30:11 <fungot> fizzie: where is lambda calculus is a part. in that time :p :p :p) ( although, it might
22:30:16 <zzo38> Can you report more income (including illegal income) on your taxes than you actually have?
22:33:11 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I don't think you're allowed to do that, but call 1819 from inlands or +3612509500 from abroad on weekdays during the day if you want to know more definitely, or contact and pay a lawyer if you want to know for sure enough that there's a warranty on it.
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22:39:06 <boily> . o O ( zero one one eight nine nine nine ♪ )
22:40:32 <wob_jonas> meh, these numbers change once every few years. the last one was +3640424242, but then the whole +3640 namespace got disassembled, and every important organization got new numbers completely at random so you have to look them up individually,
22:41:06 <wob_jonas> and half of them are short numbers like this 1819 one, and for short numbers you can't easily tell what the equivalent is to dial from abroad or what the costing is without looking those info up
22:41:23 <wob_jonas> I think dismantling the +3640 namespace was a horrible decision
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23:29:07 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hanss314 * New user account
23:37:15 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54395&oldid=54364 * Hanss314 * (+251) /* Introductions */
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23:53:20 <esowiki> [[Zero Instruction Set Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54396&oldid=45755 * B jonas * (+28) should really also have an example that isn't created by ais523
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23:54:09 <esowiki> [[Zero Instruction Set Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54397&oldid=54396 * B jonas * (+19) /* Examples */
23:55:14 <esowiki> [[Zero Instruction Set Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54398&oldid=54397 * B jonas * (-10) /* Examples */
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00:20:57 <esowiki> [[TLOWScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54399 * Hanss314 * (+944) Add TLOWScript
00:22:30 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54400&oldid=54366 * Hanss314 * (+17) /* T */
00:23:05 <esowiki> [[TLOWScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54401&oldid=54399 * Hanss314 * (+0)
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00:25:43 <ais523> has anyone had more thoughts of the I/D machine? or has the initial enthusiasm worn off?
00:26:01 <ais523> I've been wondering if it's good for proving things TC but few languages seem to have the right primitives
00:26:09 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, I'm still enthusiastic about the M:tG proof
00:28:26 <ais523> I'm thinking about getting back to it, the I/D machine was a bit of an abstraction
00:28:47 <ais523> I've already written a couple of background pages about it but may want to throw them out and start again, I think I'm aiming at the wrong level of abstraction for the readers I want
00:28:56 <ais523> but they helped me to get my thoughts in order (and find the tournament rules issue)
00:29:26 <wob_jonas> do you mean the comprehensive rules problem about the infinite loops?
00:33:12 <moony> I/D is actually quite good for virtual machines
00:33:26 <ais523> that say you aren't allowed to continue a loop without knowledge of the iterations and expected end state
00:36:15 <esowiki> [[TLOWScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54402&oldid=54401 * Hanss314 * (+115)
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00:45:20 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/I/D_machine
00:46:11 <ais523> or as a one line summary: a language with data pointer (initially 0) and unbounded RAM of unbounded elements (initially all 0) and two commands; I increments the target of the data pointer, D assigns the value in the data pointer's target back to the data pointer; the program repeats forever in an implicit loop
00:46:35 <ais523> I love that you can fully specify it in one line of IRC
00:49:19 <ais523> the winner for the shortest specification may go to The Waterfall Model, which can be fully specified in 4 bytes of [[e:Jelly] : +"Ṃẞ (Jelly uses an encoding where Ṃ and ẞ are each single bytes)
00:49:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: but doesn't that cheat by not including the loop?
00:49:59 <ais523> wob_jonas: the Jelly impl? that's what the ß (or is it ẞ) means
00:50:25 <ais523> "run the main program recursively", so putting it at the end of the program gives you an infinite loop via tail-recursion
00:50:37 <ais523> looking at this I'm very suspicious I've used the wrong case of ß, I'll have to fix that at some point
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00:51:11 <ais523> the other commands are + meaning "add", " meaning "corresponding elements", and Ṃ meaning "minimum"
00:51:52 <wob_jonas> and it takes minimum of rows by comparing them lexicographically?
00:52:02 <ais523> so only the first element actually gets compared
00:52:48 <ais523> in this case, the "corresponding elements" are of the minimum and of the full matrix
00:53:04 <ais523> so the first element of the minimum gets added to the first row of the matrix, the second element of the minimum to the second row of the matrix, and so on
00:53:28 <ais523> golfing languages are great, they just give you a big mix of nouns and verbs and adjectives and the like
00:53:43 <ais523> then you string them together and it figures out what you mean from context (with rules that are objectively defined but often quite complex)
00:54:07 <wob_jonas> not all golfing languages are like that, but yeah
00:54:31 <ais523> looks like it is ß that should be used
00:54:47 <ais523> wob_jonas: right, others have entirely meaning sets for different contexts, Japt for example
00:54:49 <ais523> I don't like that as much though
00:54:57 <ais523> a good golfing language is like a good natural language
00:55:30 <ais523> like, the code determines the context of any particular command via running the code up to it
00:55:40 <ais523> then what it does depends on the context and the various possible meanings don't need to be correlated at all
00:56:59 <oerjan> . o O ( garden path programming )
00:58:05 <ais523> so, for example, f in Japt will act as an array intersection operation if run on an array (with a few other options), but if you give it a number instead, it'll do a floor operation
00:58:08 <ais523> those have nothing in common
00:59:31 <int-e> . o O ( the result will never be larger than the input(s) )
01:00:11 <ais523> in Jelly, Ḟ will floor a number or floor every element of an array; f will take the intersection of arrays, and treat numbers in its argument as an array of the integers from 1 to the number inclusive
01:00:27 <zzo38> A short AWK program to change multiple blank lines into a single blank line: x+(x=NF)
01:01:00 <ais523> in sed you could write it as /^$/d I think
01:01:18 <ais523> that changes multiple newlines into a single newline
01:01:22 <ais523> which is a different operation
01:03:18 <wob_jonas> ais523: will that Jelly program implementing Waterfall use bignums? because I don't think fixed sized numbers are enough to make Waterfall reasonably usable, with the exponential slowdown
01:04:02 <ais523> also that language is exponentially slower than Waterfall
01:04:15 <ais523> (Jelly uses bignums by default; it has a variant called M which uses computable reals)
01:04:57 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, that deletes blank lines, which is different to what I wrote. In sed if there is a command to match a regular expression across multiple lines then you can do what I mentioned
01:05:13 <wob_jonas> I mean, there's already very few implementations that can do arithmetic on arbitrary algebraic numbers
01:05:33 <wob_jonas> zzo38: can you do it in sed with a comma thingy?
01:05:57 <ais523> wob_jonas: there are drop-in computable reals libraries for many languages
01:06:28 <ais523> although they tend to struggle when comparing them, if two computable reals are actually equal then a comparison between them tends to cause an infinite loop
01:06:46 <ais523> unless they're known to be ints or rationals or something similarly easy to compare
01:08:09 <zzo38> wob_jonas: That doesn't work (I tried it).
01:08:42 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yeah, but something like that maybe? with an added a command or something
01:09:39 <zzo38> I am not that good at it either, but I do know awk, which is why, I wrote the program in awk instead.
01:10:01 <wob_jonas> that expression is applied as a condition for an implicit print, right?
01:10:18 <zzo38> Yes it is applied as a condition for an inplicit print.
01:36:30 <wob_jonas> anyway, I still say that the slow play stuff doesn't matter, the opponent just has to call a judge if he can't figure out how the loop works
01:37:36 <fizzie> `` printf "foo\nbar\n\nbaz\n\n\n\nquux\n" | sed -e 's/^$/x/;tx;x;s/.*x.*//;Ty;p;:y;x;p;d;:x;H;d'
01:37:37 <HackEgo> foo \ bar \ \ baz \ \ quux
01:38:07 <fizzie> It really should be a lot simpler, but for some reason the simpler things weren't working. sed can be a little subtle when it comes to newlines.
01:39:40 <wob_jonas> how about tr \\n: :\\n | sed 's/:::*/::/ | tr \\n: :\\n
01:39:53 <wob_jonas> tr \\n: :\\n | sed s/:::*/::/ | tr \\n: :\\n
01:40:11 <wob_jonas> but the regex needs to be a bit more complicated if you want to accept lines with only whitespace as blanks
01:40:24 <wob_jonas> and I should really escape that star
01:40:28 <wob_jonas> tr \\n: :\\n | sed s/:::\*/::/ | tr \\n: :\\n
01:42:24 <fizzie> Sounds plausible, and pretty clever.
01:42:37 <fizzie> My sed thing basically appends a 'x' marker to the hold space on every empty line, and on non-empty lines prints out an extra newline before the original contents.
01:42:52 <fizzie> (Iff there's an 'x' in the hold space, that is.)
01:43:46 <fizzie> `` printf "foo\nbar\n\nbaz\n\n\n\nquux\n" | tr '\n:' ':\n' | sed 's/:::*/::/g' | tr '\n:' ':\n'
01:43:47 <HackEgo> foo \ bar \ \ baz \ \ quux
01:44:58 <fizzie> (I wanted it to just copy append empty lines to the hold space and then s/\n\n*/\n/ the hold space before prepending it, but I think the hold space operations do some implicit newlining, or something.)
01:45:23 <wob_jonas> sed is a terrible programming language
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02:04:01 <esowiki> [[TLOWScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54403&oldid=54402 * Hanss314 * (+27)
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04:58:10 <esowiki> [[Incident]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54404&oldid=51822 * Ais523 * (+628) /* Computational class */ explain the TCness proof (both that the pretty-print half is on the talk page, and that the translation from slightly restricted Minsky machines is in the repo; also mentoin the TAFMl1 connection)
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07:00:44 <zzo38> I did this in a C program in order to indent output lines: printf("\n%*s",x,""); How common is such a thing in a C code?
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07:18:49 <fungot> danil: it should not be difficult to integrate cml a distributed message-passing device.
07:19:09 <danil> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????/
07:19:32 <danil> what over bots are here?
07:22:38 <zzo38> There is also lambdabot and HackEgo
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07:42:53 <zzo38> Lambdabot implements Haskell and needs > before the Haskell codes (although there are other commands too, such as weather reports).
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07:46:10 <danil> oh. What about HackEgo?
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07:55:53 <zzo38> :t head.(>>=(\(x,y)->x<$guard y)).zip[0..].nub.sort
07:57:28 <zzo38> :t head.(>>=(\(x,y)->x<$guard(x/=y))).zip[0..].nub.sort
07:57:30 <lambdabot> (Ord c, Enum c, Num c) => [c] -> c
07:58:10 <zzo38> > ( head.(>>=(\(x,y)->x<$guard(x/=y))).zip[0..].nub.sort ) [9,0,5,3,6,0,1,2,2,3,4]
07:58:42 <zzo38> > ( head.(>>=(\(x,y)->x<$guard(x/=y))).zip[0..].nub.sort ) [3,7,13,15,0,1,0]
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08:02:53 <zzo38> danil: HackEgo has many things
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08:04:33 <zzo38> :t fst.head.filter(uncurry(/=)).zip[0..].nub.sort
08:04:36 <lambdabot> (Ord b, Enum b, Num b) => [b] -> b
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08:05:35 <zzo38> danil: HackEgo runs UNIX commands including whatever programs are put in.
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08:05:49 <zzo38> danil: HackEgo runs UNIX commands including whatever programs are put in.
08:05:55 <zzo38> Why you quit and reenter so many times?
08:06:25 <danil> I have a laptop whoes screen falls. So everytime i log out.
08:06:44 <danil> My laptop suspends when screen shut.
08:07:15 <zzo38> O, well, perhaps you should fix that (perhaps by putting something to hold it up, or changing the setting so that it does not suspend)
08:07:51 <danil> Good idea! Thank you.
08:09:29 <zzo38> Use the prefix `` or ``` (the difference is that ``` uses the C locale, but `` uses Unicode locale)
08:10:22 <HackEgo> cat: hi: No such file or directory
08:10:56 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ izash.c \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quinor \ quotes \ share \ src \ test2 \ testfile \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
08:11:03 <zzo38> There is also a webpage with a list of all of the files
08:12:04 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ``ls: not found
08:12:07 <zzo38> The command won't persist so cd won't help if used by itself
08:12:24 <zzo38> See the web page at: http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/
08:12:45 <zzo38> If you only want to view the files rather than execute them, you can look there.
08:13:23 <danil> I just had a idea for a language!
08:16:09 <danil> I have a accumulator and a deliverer. They are called accumulator and shipping port. You need to take a amount of objects from the deliverer and put them into the accumulator. PS: there are infinity accumulators, and all of 'em can act as deliverers
08:18:04 <danil> So, it can act as a 'tape'! Or, if we add a limit to allow only 1 or no objects to be delivered, it is a Turing-complete thing!
08:19:24 <danil> How do I implement that?
08:20:12 <danil> Oh, here is a example: 210210210. 0 means to come back.
08:24:01 <fungot> danil: that doesn't necessarily have to study up on my window sill
08:29:36 <danil> ^ul (Underload!)S()s
08:29:36 <fungot> Underload! ...bad insn!
08:30:12 <danil> > ( head.(>>=(\(x,y)->x<$guard(x/=y))).zip[0..].nub.sort ) [3,7,13,15,0,0]
08:31:20 <zzo38> You can write other Haskell codes too; that is not the only possibility
08:32:08 <danil> Did you like my idea?
08:32:50 <zzo38> I don't know, but you can add it into esolang wiki, and then you can see.
08:33:01 <shachaf> zzo38: Can you explain the accounting equation?
08:33:17 <shachaf> Is BAL covariant and FSV contravariant?
08:34:22 <danil> ?What is the accounting equation?
08:34:45 <danil> ermmmmmmmm.....................................................................................................................................................................................
08:36:40 <zzo38> shachaf: I would think so. <BAL| is constant and |FSV> can vary, but only the way that remains orthogonal to <BAL|.
08:37:21 <zzo38> danil: Wikipedia has a article about accounting equation (although not my version of it).
08:38:19 <zzo38> shachaf: It works same like the ordinary accounting equation, but with Dirac notation.
08:38:37 <zzo38> shachaf: FSV is the current "financial state vector".
08:39:03 <danil> Why are you talking about money on #esoteric?
08:39:15 <shachaf> Do you like index notation? BAL_i FSV^i = 0
08:39:41 <shachaf> What is a financial state vector? And what is BAL?
08:40:13 <zzo38> You could write it that way, but Dirac notation look like it works better in this case.
08:41:00 <danil> Just to clarify, what is Dirac notation?
08:42:19 <zzo38> Dirac notation is also described in Wikipedia, they could probably explain better than I do
08:43:52 <danil> I already looked. It started talking about Bra-ket notation!!!!! And im not a physicist!
08:44:32 <zzo38> shachaf: Financial state vector is all of the accounts, like you normally do in accounting. "BAL" is short for "balance" and is the one it must be balanced with.
08:44:53 <zzo38> danil: I am not a physicist either (nor am I an accountant).
08:45:28 <danil> Buts its about Quantum, isnt it?
08:46:13 <zzo38> Dirac notation is commonly used for quantum physics, although I am treating it here just as a mathematical notation.
08:46:23 <zzo38> (because that is what it is)
08:48:16 <danil> I just read the Russian Wikipedia page and understood it. But what is Hilbert space?
08:48:33 <zzo38> You may also wonder why I came up with this kind of accounting equation. Well, once at school in accounting class I was finished the work so was trying to think of other things, such as how to use complex numbers in accounting. I concluded that was impossible, but found that matrix mathematics can be used, so I invented matrix accounting.
08:50:31 <zzo38> I did; what part are you asking specifically?
08:53:25 <danil> Lets make a accounting-specific esolang! (Well, Excel is here but...)
08:54:59 <zzo38> OK, you don't have to try, then.
08:55:49 <HackEgo> 191) <elliott> Getting bad programmers to like something is a failure.
08:56:23 <Taneb> `quote experimenting with clients
08:56:24 <HackEgo> 432) <Taneb> Well, I'm now experimenting with clients <fizzie> It doesn't sound like good PR to say that out loud.
08:56:43 <Taneb> I've got two IRC clients pointing at the same bouncer on the same computer now
08:58:16 <Taneb> This is going to be confusing
08:58:43 <danil> lambda 1 2 3. s(2+3)= simple de-bruijn lambda calculus with typed elements.
08:59:20 <danil> ^ul (1)S(0)S(1)S(1+2+3+4+5)
08:59:40 <danil> ^ul (1)S(0)S(1)S(1+2+3+4+5)S
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09:10:50 <HackEgo> 701) <Sgeo_> Why does CL get called functional? <oerjan> it's sort of like how you call ancient greece democratic.
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09:14:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: QUOTE: not found
09:14:22 <HackEgo> 763) <olsner> when everyone else was busy going "ewwww, comic sans!" I was reading the text and learned everything
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10:05:01 <avacaso> ^ul (89898989898989899899898989)S
10:05:01 <fungot> 89898989898989899899898989
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10:14:29 <lambdabot> LOWI 190950Z 06004KT 020V100 7000 -SN FEW008 SCT012 BKN025 M02/M04 Q1004 R08/29//95 TEMPO 4000 BR
10:39:58 <Lymia> Today I learned that one of my dependencies is attempting to use a non-zero terminated Rust string as a zero-terminated C string
11:03:58 <Taneb> Lymia: that sounds unfortunate
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12:19:30 <esowiki> [[User:Singingbanana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54405&oldid=54142 * Singingbanana * (+74)
12:20:09 <esowiki> [[User:Singingbanana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54406&oldid=54405 * Singingbanana * (-1)
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12:49:00 <dftgf> ^ul (0)S((0)(1))(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
12:49:00 <fungot> 011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011001101001100101101001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010010110 ...too much output!
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12:49:51 <dftgf> (^^:^^^:^^^^:^^^^^)S
12:50:15 <dftgf> ^ul (^^:^^:^^^:^^^^)S
12:51:08 <dftgf> (^:^^:^^^) ()~(((())~a
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12:51:46 <dftgf> ^ul (^:^^:^^^^)()~(((())~a
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13:05:14 <fizzie> The quinest of languages.
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13:24:39 <fungot> dftgf: choosing " left if it's tails" produces exactly the same problem ( having two fnord names for all the four times... no idea what the number is
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13:56:30 <esowiki> [[Domino]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54407 * Singingbanana * (+429) Created page with "Domino is a Turing complete programming language based on dominoes. ====Examples==== A or gate: <pre> | | | | | | | | | </pre> A XOR: <pre> | | | | - - <..."
13:57:13 <esowiki> [[Domino]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54408&oldid=54407 * Singingbanana * (-3) Deleted random " Sign.
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15:41:15 <wob_jonas> zzo38: printing spaces with printf width, I think that's normal and other people do that too
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15:52:56 * APic just had moar to do with C than with C++ in his Life
15:53:10 <APic> If i used C++ moar i would probably learn to love it as well. ☺
15:53:11 <zzo38> I think some of the system logs (auth.log, syslog, kern.log) are written too often, what should be done about that?
15:53:28 <APic> zzo38: Look at Your syslogd or Clone?
15:53:36 * APic thinks nowadays evil systemd even does most of the Logging ☹
15:55:13 <wob_jonas> APic: there's nothing wrong with that. C is fine for some things. Even if there's a lot I don't understand about it.
15:55:48 <wob_jonas> zzo38: change the configuration of your syslogd
15:58:58 <zzo38> I looked in dmesg and found the message "sr0: CDROM not ready. Make sure there is a disc in the drive." several times even though I am not trying to use the CDROM, as well as a message that says "sd 3:0:0:0: [sda] Add. Sense: Unrecovered read error - auto reallocate failed". Nevertheless the computer seems to work. Why are these error messages in there?
15:59:46 <wob_jonas> zzo38: maybe some process is trying to use sr0 even though you don't?
16:00:03 <wob_jonas> that second message about sda is more worrysome
16:00:15 <wob_jonas> is sda a hard disk you have data on?
16:01:01 <wob_jonas> your disk or disk controller might be dying. obviously that's unpredictable, it could die in a minute or last for years.
16:01:17 <wob_jonas> but I'm always worried if I see that kind of IO error message about a hard disk
16:01:32 <wob_jonas> (not when I see it for a removable media like a floppy or CD, there it's normal)
16:02:01 <wob_jonas> (the floppy or CD can get unusable too, but a hard disk costs more than a hundred times as much as a floppy or CD)
16:04:17 <zzo38> Yes it is a hard disk, although smartctl does not report any problem with any SMART attributes. It reports temperature as 29, but I do not know what temperature should be proper.
16:04:17 <wob_jonas> the CDROM message is irrelevant, I'd ignore it unless you have other problems with the optical drive near the same time
16:04:38 <wob_jonas> temperature 29? what is that measured in? degrees celsius?
16:05:11 <zzo38> I think it is Celsius
16:05:46 <zzo38> (It says "Temperature_Celsius")
16:05:46 <APic> wob_jonas: Yes, for Example the Linux-Kernel would probably suck if written in C++
16:05:56 <APic> Would depend on what Libraries You include
16:06:07 <APic> The Kernel probably will not have the normal stdlibs
16:06:19 <APic> And SymbianOS is not _that_ bad either
16:06:25 <APic> Being fully C++
16:06:32 <wob_jonas> APic: that's a matter of an age old debate, and, in any case, the kernel is already written in a really strange dialect of C, so if it were written in C++, then it would be written in a strange dialect of C++ too
16:06:45 <APic> But i still liked very much when Nokia released the OpenC-Stuffs for the E90 back then
16:06:58 <APic> Where You could do Unix-C-Stuffs like i was used to
16:06:59 <wob_jonas> I don't do kernel programming anyway, and I have no problem with some userland programs or libraries being written in C either
16:07:05 <wob_jonas> I'm not doing C++ because I hate C or anything
16:07:18 <APic> Hate is generelly a bad Feeling
16:07:23 <wob_jonas> I'm using C++ because it's a great tool and I can accomplish a lot with it, including at work
16:07:33 <wob_jonas> oh, I do have hate. it's just not directed at C
16:09:30 <zzo38> Do you know what temperature is reasonable for the hard drive? (It says 29 under VALUE, and 50 under WORST, and 0 under THRESH)
16:10:27 <wob_jonas> I'm not a hardware guy, so I don't really know, but I think anything between 10 and 50 degrees celsius is definitely fine, anything above 100 degrees celsius is bad, and for the rest I have no idea
16:11:07 <wob_jonas> as long as you make sure to occasionally vacuum the dust accumulated in the computer
16:12:52 <zzo38> I do not have a special vacuum cleaner for use with the computer (I have been trying to acquire one).
16:14:28 <wob_jonas> You don't need a special vacuum cleaner. An ordinary vacuum cleaner mostly works, except possibly for the cooling grills and fans. For there, a vacuum cleaner doesn't help, but you might use either compressed air cylinders or an electric compressed air blower.
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16:17:31 <zzo38> OK, although I have been told that a special vacuum cleaner is required
16:19:03 <APic> 190 Airflow_Temperature_Cel 0x0022 070 001 000 Old_age Always - 30 (Min/Max 12/30)
16:19:06 <APic> 194 Temperature_Celsius 0x0022 069 049 000 Old_age Always - 31 (Min/Max 12/36)
16:19:41 <APic> The other Harddisk does not seem to deliver that Information to SMART
16:20:46 <zzo38> What I have read is that Seagate stores the actual temperature in VALUE and WORST on attribute 194 (rather than the normalized value like it is supposed to do), and it does not have attribute 190
16:25:32 <wob_jonas> Listen to hardware guys you trust, not me. I'm not good at hardware, my advice there is worthless.
16:26:19 <zzo38> OK, but I don't know any hardware guys
16:27:15 <Taneb> wob_jonas: a few years ago one of my friends was horrified to discover that a) I put together my own PC, and B) I somehow was using far fewer screws than should be possible
16:27:28 <Taneb> (this was after my graphics card fell out)
16:27:30 <wob_jonas> zzo38: that's easier if you work in CS and you have coworkers who do hardware.
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16:28:01 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
16:28:26 <wob_jonas> hmm. screwless computers aren't listed there
16:28:34 <HackEgo> Culinary tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, weetoflakes, mushrooms, nutella, and cognac.
16:28:45 <HackEgo> Nutella is a nutty substance. Taneb invented it for use in his automatic squirrel feeders.
16:28:55 <HackEgo> Cognac is named for its strong cognitive effects. Taneb invented it, then somehow managed to keep it off the illegal drugs list.
16:29:17 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom/hypo*: No such file or directory
16:29:34 <HackEgo> wisdom/hyperbolic geometry wisdom/hyperbolic group
16:29:37 <zzo38> Also note that only 9% of the file system is in use.
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17:05:56 <zzo38> I also lack suitable backup media. I have a DVD writer drive but it does not work due to dust.
17:06:53 <wob_jonas> zzo38: you can buy USB-connected DVD writers for cheap these days, or you can buy an USB3 external rack for SATA hard disks and buy multiple large hard disks
17:07:29 <wob_jonas> this applies for home settings, not for businesses
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17:09:03 <zzo38> (I do have blank DVDs.)
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17:13:52 <zzo38> I also don't know what method should be used to make backups. What commands for backups are available on Linux?
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17:15:36 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I usually just bring my home machine to single user so barely any process runs and I can get a consistent snapshot of the file system state without anything trying to change it, then use a variant of this script to make tarballs http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=922051
17:15:57 <wob_jonas> there are all sorts of more sophisticated methods, but I don't bother
17:16:31 <wob_jonas> except that if you have some really important files, like the stereotypical thesis you're writing or thesis your spouse is writing, then make copies of those often and distribute copies everywhere
17:18:27 <zzo38> I do not really have anywhere to distribute copies, although many of my files are available for public download
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17:19:05 <wob_jonas> yeah, there's a famous quote on that
17:19:23 <zzo38> What famous quote?
17:19:39 <wob_jonas> Only wimps use tape backup: _real_ men just upload their important stuff on ftp, and let the rest of the world mirror it ;) – Linus Torvalds http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.LNX.3.91.960720095713.20645F-100000%40linux.cs.Helsinki.FI
17:21:33 <zzo38> I do not have a tape anyways. But, anyone who wishes to mirror some of my files may do so
17:21:48 <zzo38> (That is, the ones that are public)
17:22:01 <wob_jonas> yes, that quote is from lots of years ago when hard disks were small and there were no home CD writers
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17:36:53 <zzo38> What version of perl do you need?
17:40:09 <wob_jonas> zzo38: that program was published in 2011, so perl 5.14 should definitely be enough, but I'd guess perl 5.10 might work too.
17:40:31 <wob_jonas> and although it isn't mentioned here, I later started to compress the tarballs with 7z instead of gzip
17:41:26 <wob_jonas> but be careful, I don't really use the best backup practices
17:41:45 <wob_jonas> it might be better to ask someone more careful with this stuff
17:42:25 <zzo38> Although 7-Zip already includes the list of files anyways, so then I wouldn't know why you will also need tar?
17:42:52 <wob_jonas> 7-zip doesn't save unix attributes like file owner and group and permissions and symlinks
17:43:01 <wob_jonas> I need to save those for a full system backup
17:43:32 <zzo38> Yes, I should need to save permissions and symlinks
17:43:49 <wob_jonas> also tar recognizes hard links when you archive all the fifty hard links to the git binary that git installs
17:44:05 <wob_jonas> it doesn't recognize them when they're in separate archives, so the backup is a bit lossy that way
17:46:50 <wob_jonas> also, I make the backup from a non-recursive bind mount of the root file system, so that other mounts (including the one that covers the bootstrap files in /dev etc) don't distract the backup
17:48:25 <wob_jonas> I believe on if you want a working full backup of Linux, the device file /dev/console is important, it can be used before the devtmpfs is mounted over /dev , although this applies only if you're not using an initrd, which is getting rare these days
17:48:43 <wob_jonas> still, it's better to back up the files that are there in /dev rather than not back them up
17:49:35 <zzo38> But some of them are devices is it possible to back up such files? And, what is a bind mount?
17:56:08 <wob_jonas> For the devices, you just back up the meta-information stored on the file system, not the actual device, as in what device /dev/null and /dev/zero and /dev/console and /dev/fd0 etc refer to, not the actual contents of those devices. tar won't try to read the contents of the device files, just like how it doesn't try to read what a symlink points to
17:57:11 <wob_jonas> A bind mount is a somewhat modern linux feature (although other unixes have similar) where you create a mount that isn't backed by a file system on a device, but just reflects (a subdirectory on) an existing mount in a different place on the file system. See the --bind option in man mount
17:58:39 <wob_jonas> So eg. I create a bind mount with (mount --bind / /mnt/safe/root) then /mnt/safe/root/bin/sh will point to effectively the same file as /bin/sh , but this is not recursive, so if I have another file system mounted under /mnt/safe/kond then /mnt/safe/root/mnt/safe/kond will show the directory on the root file system, not the other file system that's
17:59:10 <wob_jonas> There's also a recursive bind mount with the mount --rbind option that does reflect the other mounts, but that's not what I want here.
17:59:34 <wob_jonas> Obviously if you have data on multiple file systems, then you may want to back those up too.
18:02:52 <zzo38> O, that's how it works. I do not have multiple file systems
18:04:34 <zzo38> Is there a way to perform incremental backups while the system is running?
18:11:32 <\oren\_> I back everything up to DVD
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18:34:47 <wob_jonas> zzo38: performing backups while the system is running is much more difficult, because you have to be very careful not to end up in an inconsistent state, like where some data is moved from one directory to another, and you back up both directories when the data is in the other.
18:35:47 <wob_jonas> There are application-specific tricks (eg. subversion gives like four different ways to create a consistent copy of a repository), and there's modern solutions supported by the kernel and the file system, but I don't know how these work and I'm not the right person to ask.
18:37:19 <wob_jonas> For my home machine, I already turn off the computer often, so I can afford to stop most other processes when I'm creating the backup (the tarballs to a hard disk that is; I can run the system while I write the tarballs to DVD), and I can manage small but important files (like the stereotypical thesis) in a case by case basis (eg. I don't work on t
18:37:19 <wob_jonas> he thesis while I make a backup copy of it).
18:37:48 <wob_jonas> \oren\: ok, but what's your process of backing up everything to DVD? can you be a bit more specific?
18:41:39 <zzo38> Can you lease the file while making a backup of it?
18:42:13 <zzo38> (If the lease is broken, it can remember that it has not backed up that file and try again later)
18:43:40 <\oren\_> wob_jonas: I just burn a new set of dvds aveyr few months
18:45:06 <zzo38> Or will leasing the files not help?
18:45:11 <\oren\_> I don't really have any large files so my whole home directory fits on 3 DVD's
18:45:29 <\oren\_> ... used to fit on only one tho
18:46:36 <\oren\_> I keep them in envelopes with the date I burned them written on them
18:47:10 <zzo38> All of the files on my computer might fit on three DVDs, but I have not tested this yet
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18:49:28 <\oren\_> of those, it's two DVD's worth of saved mp3's
18:49:35 <\oren\_> and one with everything else
18:50:30 <\oren\_> so I have dvd envelopes with "December 2017 music collection part 1"
18:51:00 <wob_jonas> zzo38: you'd have to lease all files (and all directories) at the same time, and if that was possible, it's more or less than same as stopping or suspending the system because nobody can write anything
18:51:55 <wob_jonas> \oren\: do you store some of the backup DVDs in places other than the home where the computer is?
18:52:19 <fizzie> My backups are in a different country than the computer.
18:52:26 <wob_jonas> I think about a quarter of my backups is photos, and this ratio will just increase as I'm doing more and more photography
18:53:06 <fizzie> wob_jonas: TBH, it's really just an artefact of the fact that we already had a safety deposit box in a bank in Finland.
18:53:10 <\oren\_> wob_jonas: no but I usually take my computer on trips, but don't take the dvd's. I have off-site backups onto AWS
18:53:25 <fizzie> (It does mean the off-site copy is only updated about once a year.)
18:57:17 <\oren\_> actually now I think about it I could put some dvd's in the garage, which probably wouldn't burn even if the whole house did
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18:57:44 <wob_jonas> fizzie: sure, and you could say that my off-site backups are an artifact of having moved away from my parents' house but still storing some stuff there
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19:29:22 -!- quintopia has set topic: Welcome to the international millennium for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
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19:56:24 <zzo38> Is rsync suitable to make a backup on the DVD?
19:57:19 <esowiki> [[Hatemath]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54409&oldid=54387 * BMO * (+410) implemented the language & changed commands-listing to a wiki-table.
19:57:26 <zzo38> (Since I already have rsync in my computer)
20:01:42 <zzo38> And what issues will there be with recording on DVD while the system is running? The man page for wodim says, for the information about the -dummy option, "It is recommended to run several tests before actually writing to a Compact Disk or Digital Versatile Disk, if the timing and load response of the system is not known."
20:04:10 <zzo38> Also, which DVDs are better, -R or +R? I have -R (and as far as I know the optical drive on my computer can record on DVD-R), but I don't know what is better
20:08:16 <zzo38> Anyways, if there are any of my public files that you want copies of (including clones of Fossil repositories), you may make those copies if you wish.
20:26:51 <shachaf> copumpkin: at least you can replace USB cables without replacing the whole charger hth
20:29:07 <wob_jonas> zzo38: that's much less of a problem these days than it used to be when computers were small and your whole computer had 128 MB of RAM and so CD burners couldn't afford to have hundreds of megabytes of buffer RAM right on the board. these days you don't have to worry about burning DVD while the system is running.
20:30:02 <wob_jonas> zzo38: there's still some anecdotal evidence that it might be worth to burn disks at slower speed than the drive and disk are capable of, not because the burning fails, but because the disk might last longer, but it's hard to tell whether this actually matters
20:30:52 <wob_jonas> zzo38: as for -R versus +R disks, these days it doesn't matter at all. that started as some sort of two standards by two competing companies, but these days every drive and every software is compatible with every variant.
20:31:28 <wob_jonas> zzo38: and no, I don't think rsync is suitable for writing directly on the DVD
20:33:16 <wob_jonas> For writing DVD or CD, I recommend first collecting a copy of what you want to backup to hard disk, which is the phase where it matters that other processes don't modify the source, then later you can write from that copy to DVD at leisure, for which I recommend http://libburnia-project.org/ if you're doing the burning on a linux system
20:34:16 <wob_jonas> that's a set of command-line tools for writing (and reading) CD and DVD of all kinds
20:36:01 <wob_jonas> so I create backup tarballs on hard disk while the system is running, then write the tarballs onto DVDs
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20:40:45 <wob_jonas> This isn't the only software that can burn DVDs, and you can use others, it's just what I recommend.
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21:02:06 <esowiki> [[TLOWScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54410&oldid=54403 * ZM * (+26) This is going to be controversial
21:05:39 <esowiki> [[TLOWScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54411&oldid=54410 * ZM * (+83)
21:06:06 <esowiki> [[TLOWScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54412&oldid=54411 * ZM * (+29)
21:06:31 <esowiki> [[TLOWScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54413&oldid=54412 * ZM * (-10)
21:18:37 <esowiki> [[TLOWScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54414&oldid=54413 * ZM * (+373) Background info
21:22:33 <esowiki> [[TLOWScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54415&oldid=54414 * Hanss314 * (+113)
21:27:11 <esowiki> [[TLOWScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54416&oldid=54415 * Hanss314 * (+71)
21:27:47 <esowiki> [[TLOWScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54417&oldid=54416 * Hanss314 * (-2)
21:28:00 <moony> Would it be possible to design a language to be turing complete when it's only data type is a set
21:28:13 <moony> (without self modification. self modification makes anything turing if you try hard enough lol)
21:36:14 <\oren\_> moony: you can represent any integer as a set
21:37:21 <moony> I'm just looking into how such a language could be minimized, and what would the minimum instruction set for a set only language be
21:39:05 <wob_jonas> moony: can you have labels and goto? if so, then probably just have a two-counter Minsky machine, and call the numbers "sets", where instead of increasing, you form a singleton set, and instead of decreasing, you take an arbitrary element of the set but test if it's empty
21:42:35 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bottersnike * New user account
21:46:37 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54418&oldid=54395 * Bottersnike * (+299)
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23:08:17 <shachaf> oerjan: how come you didn't replace 5? with something else tdnh
23:09:06 <shachaf> `5 [[ $((RANDOM % 2)) = 0 ]] && w || q
23:09:14 <HackEgo> 1/2:39) <GregorR-L> If I ever made a game where you jabbed bears ... <GregorR-L> I'd call it jabbear. \ 587) <Ngevd> I'm neither Norwegian nor Finnish <Ngevd> I don't fit in your quaint little categories \ 89) <Quas_NaArt> Hooray! <Quas_NaArt> I'm an idiot. \ 1268) <ais523> editor flame wars are fun, I typically take the side of emacs and vim ve
23:09:19 <HackEgo> 2/2:rsus everything else <ais523> normally I can get most of the emacs /and/ vim users round to my side, thus catching out all the other-editor-users who thought they were safe \ article//An article is something that `learn can understand.
23:09:44 <moony> i still need to learn emacs
23:09:55 <moony> it looks useful, and its certainly faster than atom
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02:28:36 <shachaf> Cale: Can the trace/contraction of a linear map/tensor be thought of as connecting its output to its own input somehow?
02:29:04 <shachaf> It's a sum of eigenvaluese, which are related to fixed points, at least.
02:30:40 <esowiki> [[Uyjhmn n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54419&oldid=54168 * Truttle1 * (-98)
02:31:20 <esowiki> [[Uyjhmn n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54420&oldid=54419 * Truttle1 * (-98)
02:32:23 <esowiki> [[Uyjhmn n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54421&oldid=54420 * Truttle1 * (-15)
02:33:09 <esowiki> [[Uyjhmn n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54422&oldid=54421 * Truttle1 * (+0) /* Video */
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04:10:41 <Cale> shachaf: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/240647581?t=03h04m39s -- mrguy888 playing Prismata with his monitor turned off... and winning
04:10:56 <Cale> His opponent got so mad that he walked away from his computer, lol
04:11:26 <Cale> He's just using sounds to figure out what's going on
04:11:45 <shachaf> Hmm, I've always played with it muted.
04:11:52 <Cale> and he does look at the set of units at the beginning
04:12:43 <Cale> "Apooche:i think the other type of blindfolded is legit. but this is like if chess players just put blindfolds on and then moved pieces around themselves, trying to figure out what opponent did by listening carefully to the pieces being picked up and put down"
04:13:09 <shachaf> Do different cards make different sounds?
04:13:14 <Cale> Yeah, they do now
04:13:35 <Cale> There have been some nice updates lately, it just released to Steam Early Access the other day
04:13:54 <Cale> and leading up to that there were some polishing features added
04:14:20 <shachaf> I did play through the campaign.
04:14:25 <Cale> They had technical problems with getting native linux to work
04:14:42 <shachaf> Though I think I only did one expert challenge. They're tricky.
04:14:43 <Cale> But Chrome/Pepperflash works fairly well for me now.
04:15:14 <shachaf> It's so ridiculous that they made this game in Flash.
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04:15:35 <Cale> Well, to be fair, they started in something like 2009
04:15:57 <shachaf> Are they going to rewrite it?
04:16:41 <Cale> Doubt there are any specific plans at the moment
04:17:07 <shachaf> whoa, the game has keyboard controls now?
04:17:15 <Cale> It always had keyboard controls
04:17:40 <Cale> In fact, the names of the units were picked so that their first initials were all on the left hand of the qwerty keyboard layout
04:17:47 <Cale> (the base set)
04:17:53 <shachaf> But I mean clicking units and that sort of thing
04:18:25 <Cale> There's just Q to click drones / defend semi-reasonably / breach semi-randomly
04:18:44 <Cale> and then you can hold shift while clicking to click a whole pile
04:19:21 <shachaf> I think I saw an undo and thought it was a way to unclick a pile
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04:38:31 <Cale> shachaf: also, yes, the trace can be thought of like that
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04:41:06 <Cale> Just looking for a lecture about it...
04:41:11 <shachaf> The other question I had was, can I think of a (2,0) tensor as having "two outputs" in a reasonable way?
04:41:34 <shachaf> 16:05 <shachaf> How should I think of a (2,0) contravariant tensor like A^i^j? A (0,2) covariant tensor as a bilinear form makes sense, it takes two vectors and produces a scalar linearly in each. Can I think of a (2,0) tensor as "producing two vectors" somehow? Certainly it's not just a pair of vectors.
04:41:43 <shachaf> 16:24 <shachaf> I guess what I mean is that a (2,0) tensor is like a vector whose components are vectors.
04:41:49 <Cale> Well, effectively, yes. Are you familiar with string diagrams?
04:41:56 <shachaf> I came to some other conclusions but they're all kind of vague.
04:42:12 <shachaf> Yes, string diagrams are how I started thinking about all this.
04:42:22 <shachaf> https://twitter.com/shachaf/status/974811286474129408
04:46:13 <shachaf> Normally, a (0,2) tensor is a bilinear form, i.e. something that bilinearly takes two vectors and gives you a scalar.
04:46:49 <shachaf> But you can also contract it with a (2,0) tensor, even though in general that's not expressible as the product of two vectors. So that's the sense in which it behaves like it's "producing two vectors"
04:47:01 <shachaf> (That and the variance, of course.)
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04:51:58 <shachaf> Hmm. Even when V is one-dimensional, V⊗V is different from V? It can be contracted with a bilinear form.
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05:04:09 <Cale> shachaf: Finally found something reasonable. I can't find any of the references that I learned this from http://www.math.zju.edu.cn/wjd/TN/nutshell.pdf
05:04:26 <Cale> It uses physicsy notation, hopefully it's all right :)
05:05:45 <shachaf> Physicists have some pretty clever notation. Among all the other notation.
05:06:29 <shachaf> Can the Levi-Civita symbol be basis-free?
05:12:31 <Cale> shachaf: That is an interesting question, but I'd have to even figure out what it means first :D
05:12:49 <shachaf> So I see that theye're saying to use the Kronecker delta to join up an input to an output
05:13:03 <shachaf> But can't trace be defined even when you don't have that?
05:13:51 <shachaf> Anyway I'm looking for an idea of what the trace "means"
05:14:21 <shachaf> I know how to compute it but what does it mean to connect a function's output to its input? Something related to fixed points?
05:15:59 <Cale> Well, it might also be worth looking at what happens when you wire a linear operator up the wrong way around
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05:19:10 <Cale> I've never really seen this particular bunch of stuff entirely extricated from basis-dependent descriptions. Usually you do the basis-dependent thing, and only later prove that various widgets like the trace are basis independent.
05:19:33 <Cale> I think this cup and cap might be basis dependent... obviously the identity map isn't
05:20:44 <shachaf> Ah, I found https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0723086913000790 which talks about trace in various contexts
05:21:21 <shachaf> Though I'm not sure it answers my question exactly
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16:33:54 <danil> ^ul (Anyone here)S
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16:35:55 <danil> ^ul (1)S((0)(1))(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
16:35:55 <fungot> 111010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011001101001100101101001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010010110 ...too much output!
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16:38:26 <danil> ^ul (OK.)S(YES.)S(NO)S
16:39:06 <danil> I ain't got a Underload interpreter, so why not use FUNGOT?
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18:36:03 <int-e> . o O ( The phrase "undermining bitcoin" wanders around in your mind in search of something to connect with. )
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18:58:07 <\oren\_> v3. lolo, lolere, lololli, loltum
18:58:15 <\oren\_> so they loled would be "lolollerunt"
18:58:23 <\oren\_> and a lolcow would be a "vacca lolta"
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19:50:07 <HackEgo> 174) <ais523> I love the way zzo38's comment was cut off after the f of brainfuck <ais523> that's just the most hilarious place to cut it off in a discussion about censorshi
19:52:19 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ^: not found
19:53:13 <int-e> I thought `mkx bin/^//quote|rev;quote
19:53:44 <int-e> or perhaps the opposite way.
19:54:00 <HackEgo> 168) <tswett> elliott: just to bring you up to speed, you are now my baby nephew. <olsner> wtf, elliott is a nephew and his uncle is here? <nooga> what <tswett> Heck yes I'm elliott's uncle.
19:54:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ´: not found
19:55:05 <int-e> But I guess it's more annoying an idea than a funny one anyway.
19:55:43 <shachaf> Which does mean it fits right in.
19:56:14 <HackEgo> wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: <HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/>. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN EfNeT Or dAlNeT.)
19:57:06 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: annoy: not found
19:59:01 <int-e> `` w # is this the random wisdom thingy?
19:59:04 <HackEgo> fish//Come and dance and love the fish! Mister Disco summoned it.
19:59:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: WelCome: not found
19:59:24 <HackEgo> Usage: `# <comment>//`<command>
19:59:36 <shachaf> `# let's try this again//`w
19:59:40 <HackEgo> btw//btw is short for "bury the weasel"
20:00:53 <HackEgo> WTF means Welcome To Finland.
20:01:06 <int-e> . o O ( "Want To Forget" )
20:02:16 <\oren\_> I don't know why but I really like idea of perfect form of "lol" being reduplicated like "curro, cucurri"
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22:36:08 <shachaf> Cale: Looking at that paper again now
22:36:16 <shachaf> "Some readers familiar with relativity will note similarities with the metric tensor—here we will always work in a flat Euclidean space, meaning the metric tensors are trivial"
22:37:05 <shachaf> I feel like this isn't quite a satisfying explanation of trace.
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23:15:37 <boily> why the fungot is everything “trivial” in math papers. it's not trivial. it's never trivial.
23:15:37 <fungot> boily: what he claims is inconsistent is not the language itself could well be much worse than ghc's simplified expressions.
23:21:22 <pikhq> You get the feeling that "trivial" is math speak for "I just don't feel like proving it"
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23:33:52 <alercah> this reminds me of a great story I'm going to butcher
23:34:04 <alercah> a prof is teaching a class, and states a lemma is obvoius
23:34:10 <alercah> one of the students says it isn't
23:34:31 <alercah> the prof checks his notes, there is no proof
23:35:00 <alercah> tells his students he'll dig up the proof and tell them next class
23:35:08 <alercah> he goes back and does some searching to figure out where he copied it from into his notes
23:35:14 <alercah> the original paper states the lemma with no proof
23:35:35 <alercah> leading to a very sheepish return to class the next lecture
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00:22:27 <\oren\_> alercah: the way I heard that story, the prof was at yorku. he stated a lemma as being obvious. a student asks: "is that really obvious?" the professor stared at the chalkboard for a minute... two minutes... three minutes. the students also stared at it. some scribbled in their notebooks. after 10 minutes of silence, the professor announced: "yes, it's obvious."
00:24:01 <shachaf> That is a well-known but different story.
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00:50:52 <fizzie> There was also a nice list of different types of proof on one of those humoristic text files that go around and around.
00:51:15 <fizzie> http://www.lel.ed.ac.uk/~heycock/proof.html is the first instance I could find, though I'm sure they vary.
01:20:14 <esowiki> [[Fueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54423&oldid=54296 * Oerjan * (+175) /* Kolakoski sequence */ Copy my golfing answer here
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01:30:45 <shachaf> Cale: Oh man, polycategories are obviously the answer here.
01:31:58 <oerjan> . o O ( you have a category problem, and think "i'll use polycategories"... )
01:32:38 <shachaf> oerjan: It gets worse. What I want is a 2-polycategory.
01:33:25 <oerjan> that does sound worse.
01:33:25 <shachaf> But I'll settle for a regular polycategory for now.
01:33:39 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
01:33:50 <shachaf> what did i do to deserve that
01:34:23 <oerjan> on the joke i was alluding to, no less
01:35:10 * shachaf once punned without noticing it
01:36:35 <oerjan> `le/rn People who've punned without noticing it//People who've punned without noticing it includes: oerjan shachaf
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03:26:14 <esowiki> [[Fueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54424&oldid=54423 * Oerjan * (+105) /* Thue-Morse sequence */ Shorter version
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03:42:40 <doesthiswork> Proof by reduction to the wrong problem is pretty funny
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06:19:55 <shachaf> Cale: whoa, tr(ABCDE) = tr(EABCD) etc. is really obvious with string diagrams using cups and caps
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10:01:18 <Cale> shachaf: yeah :)
10:09:38 <Taneb> Future oerjan: very nice re: Fueue golf!
10:12:23 <Taneb> (one of the oerjans for sure)
10:19:20 <shachaf> Cale: To which of the things I said?
10:19:51 <shachaf> Taneb: future oerjan. fuerjan.
10:20:16 <shachaf> obviously fuerjan would be the one interested in Fueue
10:20:45 <Cale> shachaf: That the trace relation is obvious with string diagrams
10:20:53 <Taneb> shachaf: that logic is impecabl
10:22:22 <shachaf> Cale: Representable polycategories are too good
10:23:53 <shachaf> Cale: By the way, do you remember that we talked about generalizing eigenvectors/eigenvalues to other categories?
10:24:04 <Taneb> My typing is also impecable
10:24:35 <shachaf> Anyway there's a clear meaning of scalar multiplication in any monoidal categories, which I didn't realize
10:25:24 <shachaf> Where a scalar is an arrow : I -> I where I is the identity of the tensor product
10:25:38 <shachaf> Sorry, I *am* the identity
10:26:25 <shachaf> Anyway what are some monoidal categories where Home(I,I) isn't trivial?
10:28:03 <esowiki> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54425&oldid=53141 * Thenewcomposer * (+2194) A Simple, Low-Level, Interpreted Language
10:28:31 <esowiki> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54426&oldid=54425 * Thenewcomposer * (+2) /* Hello World */
10:28:43 <esowiki> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54427&oldid=54426 * Thenewcomposer * (+2) /* 99 Bottles */
10:30:56 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54428&oldid=54400 * Thenewcomposer * (+12) /* M */
10:38:16 <Taneb> Only thing I can think of is the category of modules over some ring
10:39:41 <shachaf> I was trying to generalize from vector spaces, so that's pretty similar
10:40:13 <shachaf> There's the category of abelian groups with Z as the tensor identity I think
10:40:39 <Taneb> I think that's equivalent to modules over Z?
10:41:34 <shachaf> Is there a notion of the "trace" of an abelian group homomorphism? Maybe it gives the rank of the group when applied to the identity or something?
10:41:59 <shachaf> So that's not anything new
10:42:37 <shachaf> Well, I'd settle for something where Hom(I,I) has more than one element. Even just two.
10:48:03 <Taneb> My gut is telling me that if it has more than one it must necessarily have an infinite number
10:48:19 <Taneb> But my brain isn't convinced
10:49:43 <shachaf> Yes, Rel is monoidal with the usual Cartesian product
10:51:57 <shachaf> Where composition behaves like and, I guess, if the empty set is false
10:52:34 <shachaf> What does scalar multiplication on a relation do?
10:52:47 <shachaf> I'm in bed failing to sleep and typing this on my phone
10:54:22 <Taneb> You've got a (*0) and a (*1) there basically
10:54:25 <shachaf> I guess 1*f is f, and 0*f takes every relation to the empty relation
10:54:49 <shachaf> But can you define a "trace"?
10:55:11 <shachaf> Does it maybe measure the diagonal?
10:56:18 <Taneb> What properties should the trace have, here?
10:56:46 <shachaf> I guess one good property is traveling(AB) = tr(BA)
10:58:28 <shachaf> Actually, I guess Rel has a dagger thing, so you can define trace through that presumably
11:00:17 <shachaf> I think tr(f) is 1 if (x,x) is in f for any x
11:00:40 <shachaf> Which makes sense gives how relation composition works, right?
11:01:14 <shachaf> Say you have f : A -> B and g : C -> D
11:01:57 <shachaf> Say you have f : A -> B and g : B -> C
11:02:22 <shachaf> You have be fxg : AxB -> BxC
11:02:47 <shachaf> And if you trace on that B you want to end up with the composition g.f
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11:11:49 <shachaf> Oh, I should've just looked it up
11:12:05 <shachaf> There are at least two possible tensor products and each one of them gets a trace
11:17:14 <shachaf> But you can represent this as vector spaces too apparently
11:25:23 <Taneb> ...is Rel isomorphic to GF(2)-Vect?
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11:39:25 <fizzie> So odd: there's wifi on this plane..
11:40:52 <Taneb> That's just plane weird
11:43:33 <Taneb> ...you know, I think Rel is isomorphic to GF(2)-Vect
11:46:06 <Taneb> Which suggests a trace being hte parity of the diagonal
11:47:47 <Taneb> shachaf: does this sound concievable?
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11:59:25 <Taneb> (trace in general does not have the property tr(AB) = tr(BA))
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12:14:57 <FireFly> fizzie: heh, all Norwegian flights offer free wifi apparently, it was a nice surprise when I flew a while ago
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13:01:40 <danil> ^ul (1)S((0)(1))(~:^:S*a~^*a*~:^):^
13:01:40 <fungot> 110101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101 ...too much output!
13:01:58 <danil> ^ul (1)S((0)(1))(~:^:S*a~a^~*a*~:^):^
13:02:10 <danil> ^ul (1)S((0)(1))(~:^:S*^~*a*~:^):^
13:02:37 <danil> ^ul (1)S((0)(1))(~:^:S*~a~^~*a*~:^):^
13:02:56 <danil> ^ul (1)S((0))(~:^:S*a~^*a*~:^):^
13:03:05 <danil> ^ul (1)S(0)(1)(~:^:S*a~^*a*~:^):^
13:03:13 <danil> ^ul (1)S((0)(1))(~:^:S*a~^*a*~:^):^
13:03:13 <fungot> 110101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101 ...too much output!
13:03:25 <danil> ^ul (1)S((0)(1))(~:^:S*~^*a*~:^):^
13:03:32 <danil> ^ul (1)S((0)(1))(~:^:S*a~^*^*a*~:^):^
13:04:18 <fizzie> FireFly: So I've heard, but this is my first time. It's a BA flight, they're slowly rolling it out so you never know if there will be wifi until after takeoff.
13:04:53 <fizzie> (But I'm trying to work, so I can probably expense it.)
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15:24:50 <esowiki> [[Hatemath]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54429&oldid=54409 * Sane theinsane * (+11) /* External sources */
15:28:38 <esowiki> [[Hatemath]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54430&oldid=54429 * Sane theinsane * (+51) /* External sources */
15:28:56 <esowiki> [[Hatemath]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54431&oldid=54430 * Sane theinsane * (-51) /* External sources */
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15:38:11 <esowiki> [[Haddock]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54432&oldid=54360 * Singingbanana * (+27)
15:40:50 <esowiki> [[Haddock]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54433&oldid=54432 * Singingbanana * (+8)
15:41:31 <esowiki> [[Hatemath]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54434&oldid=54431 * Sane theinsane * (+1) /* Examples */
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15:46:06 <esowiki> [[User:Sane theinsane]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54435 * Sane theinsane * (+197) Created page with "== Myself == Hi I am Saketh. I am a python programmer that likes to make esoteric languages.<br /> == The langs I have made == I am the creator of hatemath and LML(it's made..."
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18:15:51 <zzo38> I will be transporting this computer for repair today, so the server will be unavailable during that time. Is there any considerations that should be made when transporting it?
18:17:46 <shachaf> Taneb: I think it's not GF(2) but a ring where 1+1=1
18:18:16 <shachaf> Trace doesn't in general have that property? When doesn't it?
18:18:26 <zzo38> Do you know anything about considerations when transporting a computer?
18:18:46 <shachaf> I mean for endomorphisms A,B
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18:19:47 <shachaf> @tell zzo38 Remove the disk first?
18:20:01 <fizzie> I'm afraid that computer is now being transported inconsiderately. :/
18:21:43 <shachaf> zzo38 did not leave us much time for consideration
18:21:48 <fizzie> fungot: How do you like to be transported?
18:21:49 <fungot> fizzie: if you had to choose one above the yellow block device, and talk fnord over it, and apply on an arbitrarily long integer math program somewhere that uses the list of constants is smaller in overall volume.
18:22:54 <fizzie> Didn't zzo38 live somewhere in Canada? Wonder if I'm near that computer.
18:23:23 <alercah> I believe zzo38 lives *at* canada
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19:02:05 <\oren\_> AAAAAAAAAAAA stupid global variable initialization order
19:02:27 <shachaf> Are they initialized before smart global variables?
19:03:23 <\oren\_> specificly, for some reason a global std::string gets compiled into CODE not data
19:06:48 <\oren\_> shachaf: well it's a const std::string. I think it should be compiled into data representing the string. but instead code gets generated which allocates and fills the string up
19:07:43 <shachaf> How would you make that work in C++?
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19:08:14 <shachaf> I thought you meant that «std::string s = "blah";» would somehow put "blah" into the code section.
19:09:20 <\oren\_> it would somehow put {5,"blah"} or hoever the string is represented after initialization, into the code section. because it's a const
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19:10:05 <\oren\_> the same thing happens to const int i = 5;
19:10:28 <shachaf> But std::sring is just a class.
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19:15:12 <\oren\_> not sure why that matters?
19:16:07 <shachaf> I mean, are you saying the compiler should special-case this class, or that any string class should be able to do this?
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19:21:13 <shachaf> By having const std::string not copy its argument in this context or something like that?
19:22:19 <\oren\_> yeah. it shoudl just compile to the memory layout of a fully initialized std::string, in read-only memory
19:22:40 <shachaf> I know what you want it to do. But how should it achieve it?
19:23:17 <\oren\_> well it already knows how to run arbitratry code at compile time, so jsut run the initializer at compile time
19:23:31 <shachaf> std::string, even const std::string, allocates memory
19:23:52 <\oren\_> and when it allocates memory, allocate it from the code section
19:24:21 <shachaf> How do you make that work?
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19:25:41 <\oren\_> when new is called during compile-time, you special case that to allocate from the code section instead of the heap
19:26:07 <\oren\_> new and new[] are already builtin
19:30:18 <fizzie> Would you be okay with just a const std::string_view? AIUI, it's a literal type (has a constexpr constructor), so maybe it handles like that already.
19:30:53 <shachaf> Oh, string_view would be the best C++ answer to this of course.
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19:34:49 <fizzie> People have also done all kinds of workarounds using facilities that actually exist in C++, like https://github.com/akrzemi1/static_string
19:39:11 <\oren\_> hooray, this time it DIDNT crash before the start of main()
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19:56:17 <shachaf> fizzie: Sure, if you use a separate class that's for this purpose.
19:56:38 <shachaf> I guess maybe std::string could do something different in the const constexpr case?
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20:30:00 <esowiki> [[Bitter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54436&oldid=54330 * DMC * (+2)
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20:31:28 <esowiki> [[Bitter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54437&oldid=54436 * DMC * (-2) /* Description */
20:35:27 <shachaf> Taneb: See http://www.inf.u-szeged.hu/actacybernetica/edb/vol23n1/pdf/actacyb_23_1_2017_18.pdf
20:35:58 <shachaf> Which is about a different monoidal category but mentions that one too.
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20:49:17 <wob_jonas> boily: yes, totally true. There was some algebraic topology result that Kozlov claimed without proof in an introductory paper, spending only a few lines to even state it, and we really wanted it to be true. At first we thought it was a mistake, then after thinking about the whole paper for over a month with my advisor, we figured that it was indeed
20:49:17 <wob_jonas> a trivial result that Kozlov could have seen as so obvious that he didn't include a proof.
20:49:37 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure it was actually Kozlov, may have been some other mathematician.
20:51:16 <wob_jonas> Oh, this started from a quote with the other meaning of "trivial".
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20:55:56 <wob_jonas> fizzie: for a string_view it can be done, yes, and there are very likely two interfaces that do that, both just calling the constructor with a string literal (since then the string_view will point into that literal, and the literal will likely be in a mapped read-only section of the exe), or using a certain user-defined literal that later versions
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20:58:00 <wob_jonas> And yes, I think you usually can't do it for a std::string, because (except possibly for a short string) that simply assumes that the contents is stored in an array allocated with the allocator (by the default new function in an ordinary string) and will try to free it if you destroy the string. And even a const string will typically be destroyed i
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22:43:14 <izabera> do you guys know the hex game?
22:49:03 <shachaf> Do you mean the one where you make a path from one side of the board to the other?
22:52:42 <izabera> you know that the game isn't over yet, and red makes a move
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22:53:12 <izabera> is there a fast way to tell if this move wins?
23:14:40 <quintopia> boily: did you get your registration in?
23:16:15 <boily> I tried to, but it bugged :/
23:16:22 <boily> like, broken error messages and shit.
23:22:08 <Cale> izabera: You could keep track of which sides of the board each stone is connected to, and propagate it as stones are added
23:22:26 <Cale> izabera: and then you only need to check the neighbours of newly added stones
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23:23:14 <izabera> that's a really good idea!
23:24:56 <shachaf> But note that the naive way of keeping track of that can involve updating a lot of stones in a single move.
23:25:20 <shachaf> The fancy algorithm for it is a union-find thing.
23:35:05 <shachaf> I must say I didn't expect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoidal_category to be protected.
23:40:10 <quintopia> yeah i assume it closed within an hour of opening on the 10th
23:40:46 <shachaf> Do you know whether there's an efficient online algorithm for strongly connected components in a directed graph?
23:45:30 <quintopia> i mean i guess the obvious thing wouldn't be too inefficient
23:49:00 <boily> quintopia: weekend of the...
23:49:09 * boily does hard mental arithmetic
23:49:36 <boily> 7-8 April I can game.
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00:01:07 <wob_jonas> quintopia: that sounds like something that probably exists, at least if you specify the problem precisely. the input is streaming arcs, but what is the output? is the input also streaming queries, mixed with the arcs, like for union-find? you should search the internet for something like this, and if you can't find it, ask on https://cstheory.stack
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00:01:40 <wob_jonas> quintopia: that sounds like something that probably exists, at least if you specify the problem precisely. the input is streaming arcs, but what is the output? is the input also streaming queries, mixed with the arcs, like for union-find? you should search the internet for something like this, and if you can't find it, ask on https://cstheory.stack
00:02:12 <quintopia> shachaf: to collapse nodes into components as they become strongly connected
00:04:12 <shachaf> Well, that means adding one edge can take time linear in the number of nodes.
00:04:22 <wob_jonas> And of course you should check TAOCP chapter 7.4 if it's released (even in preview form) by the time you need this.
00:05:19 <wob_jonas> Also, wait a moment, I don't think it's in there, but let me quickly check the Cormen-Leiserson-Rivest-Stein book and the ed. Iványi book in case it says something about this.
00:05:40 <wob_jonas> quintopia: have you tried searching the internet? you've given good keywords, like "online" and "streaming" and "strong components"
00:09:51 <wob_jonas> quintopia: I might be missing it, but I don't see this mentioned in the Cormen-Leiserson-Rivest-Stein book. However, it does talk about the union-find algorithm, which is the analog of this for undirected graphs, in ch. 21 of second ed., so you might try to follow the references given at the end of the chapter.
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00:20:57 <wob_jonas> quintopia: try some web searches then
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00:40:20 <wob_jonas> quintopia: a web search gives this article that might answer your question: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-19754-3_20 Luigi Laura; Federico Santaroni, "Computing Strongly Connected Components in the Streaming Model", (2011) In: Marchetti-Spaccamela A., Segal M. (eds) Theory and Practice of Algorithms in (Computer) Systems. Lect
00:40:20 <wob_jonas> ure Notes in Computer Science, vol 6595. Springer, Berlin, Heidelberg
00:40:45 <shachaf> wob_jonas: I was the one asking the question, not quintopia.
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00:42:09 <shachaf> I've tried searching the Internet but I don't think I've found a clear answer.
00:42:50 <shachaf> The problem with SCCs is that a single edge can collapse n SCCs into one. Whereas a single undirected edge will only collapse two CCs into one.
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00:44:26 <wob_jonas> shachaf: well yes, so that only works if you count the runtime in an amortized way, in which case you pre-pay for collapsing any components when you create them, but you might not want that
00:44:41 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure what your requirements are
00:45:04 <shachaf> I was wanting an API like union-find
00:45:49 <wob_jonas> shachaf: right, but is it fine if it's fast only in an amortized way? the undirected union-find is already fast only in that case I think
00:46:39 <shachaf> I'd like to know what the possibilities are.
00:46:58 <shachaf> I've wondered about this for a while. Whatever specific use case I had I've already forgotten about.
00:48:40 <wob_jonas> You can find part of the above article at https://books.google.hu/books?id=tuBCHZQMLC8C&lpg=PP2&ots=481X0N2bbp&lr&hl=hu&pg=PA193
00:50:00 <shachaf> Oh, I didn't see that reference.
00:53:48 <wob_jonas> And you can't expect anything faster than for the undirected version, because you can get the undirected version as a special case of the digraph version
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01:09:57 <moony> hellOEbonjoRbonJorholAN
01:10:28 <wob_jonas> oerjan: perhaps you can help with shachaf's algorithms question
01:12:43 * oerjan is scared of shachaf's questions lately
01:13:04 <oerjan> they tend to be about category wedge linear stuff i don't really know.
01:13:08 <moony> oerjan, want to debug opengl instead?
01:13:14 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
01:13:29 <wob_jonas> oerjan: this one isn't, it's just plain algorithm theory
01:13:36 <moony> (on that note, opengl is driving me insane at the moment)
01:13:37 <oerjan> fortunately i don't know opengl at all, so i can easily excuse myself.
01:13:41 <wob_jonas> but I have an algebraic topology question if that helps
01:14:03 <oerjan> maybe if it's simple enough.
01:14:36 <oerjan> i did once read enough to understand brouwer's theorem, but that was more than 15 years ago
01:15:38 <oerjan> although presumably brouwer's open mapping theorem too
01:16:16 <oerjan> (the one that implies that R^m is not actually homeomorphic to R^n, which is nice to know.)
01:16:29 <shachaf> p. sure you know more about wedge linear stuff than i do hth
01:16:51 <wob_jonas> oerjan: oh yeah, I know about that one
01:17:01 <oerjan> shachaf: don't really bet on it
01:17:11 <wob_jonas> there's a little written about it in my conference slides, although you won't find a proof there
01:17:58 <shachaf> wob_jonas: What are some clever algorithms I don't know about?
01:18:22 <shachaf> That's probably an easier question
01:18:41 <wob_jonas> oerjan: Jiří Matoušek has a definitive book on it by the way, and it's well-written
01:19:50 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I'm tired, so I can only give a meta-answer to that: read Knuth's TAOCP; the Cormen-Leiserson-Rivest-Stein book; and the ed. Iványi book, they have lots of algorithms, and I'm quite sure there are so many you don't know of them that you can find one you don't know by choosing randomly and retrying
01:20:26 <shachaf> They have lots of algorithms, but how many are clever?
01:21:00 <wob_jonas> oh, you want specifically clever ones?
01:21:11 <wob_jonas> I think there was a question on MathOverflow or Cstheory SE asking for those
01:22:25 <wob_jonas> shachaf: https://cstheory.stackexchange.com/q/189/8067
01:26:56 <boily> mboonysoir, bonsϿirjan.
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01:40:01 <fungot> boily: i could say " the"
01:40:11 <boily> fungot: die bart, die.
01:40:11 <fungot> boily: that's the difference, as i'm sure you have a wacom tablet thingy. turns out it was too easy
01:40:24 <boily> fungot: my bro has one; should I borrow it?
01:40:24 <fungot> boily: there are _way_ too many things about their performance too.
01:41:23 <shachaf> That has some good answers
01:41:41 <shachaf> But I'm irritated to have clicked a stackoverflow referral link
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01:52:52 <wob_jonas> shachaf: you know those are insecure and of an obvious format, right? you can just remove the user id from the end and get a valid link, with the id of the question or answer before it
01:53:07 <shachaf> I know, that's what I do when I'm at my computer
01:53:33 <shachaf> But my phone IRC client doesn't have an easy way to copy a link without opening it in a browser
01:54:06 <wob_jonas> shachaf: also the whole system changed at some point about a year ago, since then referral links with a referrer within SE still count, so now I get ten times more referrals, mostly from internal links in comments and answers
01:54:34 <wob_jonas> there was a question about this with two different proposed explanations for why it's changed
02:00:48 <wob_jonas> I've even put referral links in some data.stackexchange.com queries, like http://data.stackexchange.com/scifi/query/648267/list-bounties . That site has two shortcut ways to create link to questions or answers, but it doesn't automatically produce referral links because the login system isn't connected to the SE logins, so it doesn't know which use
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02:18:12 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hakr14 * New user account
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02:24:24 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54438&oldid=54418 * Hakr14 * (+362) /* Introductions */
02:26:22 <esowiki> [[User:Hakr14]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54439 * Hakr14 * (+131) Created page with "Not the best, but there's worse. I'm making an esolang! If I ever finish the interpreter I'll make a page for it and link it here."
02:31:10 <oerjan> funny, i'm modifying the underload reduction to fueue in order to remove a "shortcut" that wraps data around the queue, and none of the first three commands got longer
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02:49:08 <oerjan> hmph but the composition needs complete redoing.
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07:46:13 <esowiki> [[`LML]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54440 * Sane theinsane * (+2130) Created page with "== ABOUT `LML == `LML pronounced as 'elemel' is an esoteric programming language made by Saketh Suresh in 2018.The language uses 7 commands. == HOW IT WORKS == `LML works wit..."
07:46:48 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54441&oldid=54428 * Sane theinsane * (+11) /* Non-alphabetic */
07:47:52 <esowiki> [[User:Sane theinsane]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54442&oldid=54435 * Sane theinsane * (-32)
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10:26:17 <Taneb> shachaf: trace for matrices is the sum of the diagonal, right?
10:27:06 <Taneb> Oh, I was thinking of a different property
10:27:30 <Taneb> My brain somehow managed to consistently go tr(AB) = tr(A)tr(B)
10:27:46 <izabera> Taneb: why are you closing your local maplin :(
10:28:01 <Taneb> izabera: we're closing all maplins
10:28:03 <Taneb> It has been decreed
10:29:08 <Taneb> (they went into administration last month)
10:31:58 <Taneb> shachaf: also, I don't think there is a ring with two elements where 1+1=1, as then there's no subtraction
10:32:12 <Taneb> It'd be a rig, though (one of those many fun less than a ring acronyms)
10:32:46 <esowiki> [[`LML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54443&oldid=54440 * Sane theinsane * (+26)
10:33:02 <esowiki> [[`LML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54444&oldid=54443 * Sane theinsane * (+0)
10:33:08 <Taneb> (these are also called semirings I think)
10:34:24 <esowiki> [[`LML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54445&oldid=54444 * Sane theinsane * (+7)
10:34:54 <esowiki> [[`LML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54446&oldid=54445 * Sane theinsane * (+6)
10:41:09 <esowiki> [[User:Sane theinsane]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54447&oldid=54442 * Sane theinsane * (+8)
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15:01:47 * ais523_ feels an urge to apologise to their hygrometer
15:03:03 <ais523_> I spilled water on it, which I imagine is one of the worst things you can do to a hygrometer
15:03:27 <ais523_> after wiping it off, though, it seems to be more under control
15:05:13 -!- wob_jonas has joined.
15:05:25 <ais523_> hmm, that works in context :-)
15:06:19 <wob_jonas> I'll no longer be able to just search for "pool" in rules text in magiccards.info to find cards that produce mana and almost nothing else (Omnath is one of the exceptions)
15:06:38 <wob_jonas> I'm reading the M:tG announcements
15:06:56 <ais523_> wob_jonas: "add" is still likely to work
15:07:11 <ais523_> that word is rarely used in other contexts
15:07:27 <wob_jonas> ais523: the problem is that "add" occurs inside other words as an infix
15:07:35 <ais523_> at least they didn't get rid of the legend rule, that'd have broken the setup for my M:tG waterfall model
15:08:03 <wob_jonas> that's why I said in magiccards.info . in a local search, I can use regexen or whatever
15:08:18 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't think that works, some abilities say like "add X green mana"
15:08:19 <ais523_> alercah: to the rules updates? it was on dailymtg.com yesterday
15:08:21 <izabera> now we need to have a serious discussion
15:08:28 <izabera> about the plural of regex and unix
15:08:33 <ais523_> wob_jonas: also scryfall can regex Oracle text
15:08:51 <ais523_> "unixen" was historically used but mostly as a joke
15:08:58 <wob_jonas> alercah: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/dominaria-frame-template-and-rules-changes-2018-03-21
15:09:02 <ais523_> I've never seen anyone use "regices" but I kind-of like it
15:09:23 <wob_jonas> izabera: and you want to interrupt our non-serious discussion with a serious discussion? do you even know this channel?
15:09:31 <izabera> regices is obviously the plural of regice https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Regice_(Pok%C3%A9mon)
15:09:32 <ais523_> (technically speaking, though, "regex" is an abbreviation for "regular expression", so "regexes" would be correct; the "ex" isn't a suffix but a prefix)
15:09:34 <HackEgo> Calciform Pools \ Land \ {T}: Add {C} to your mana pool. \ {1}, {T}: Put a storage counter on Calciform Pools. \ {1}, Remove X storage counters from Calciform Pools: Add X mana in any combination of {W} and/or {U} to your mana pool. \ TSP-U
15:09:45 <ais523_> izabera: Pokémon names pluralise to themselves, all of them do
15:09:53 <wob_jonas> we can also discuss "regex" versus "regexp" versus "regular expression" versus "rational expression"
15:10:06 <izabera> ais523_: now that's just a made up rule
15:10:13 <ais523_> this is probably because of a decision made by the localisers early on; Japanese doesn't use plurals so the game's code didn't have any pluralisation handling
15:10:42 <ais523_> and so I'm guessing the localisers decided that all Pokémon names would self-pluralise so that they didn't have to try to handle that case using awkward phrasing
15:10:51 <wob_jonas> ais523: also other forms of plurals would take up more space in the precious small display
15:11:08 <izabera> there's hardly any time in the games where plural would make sense
15:11:15 <wob_jonas> I mean, they even have these strange characters in the font that represent multiple letters
15:11:29 <ais523_> wob_jonas: have you seen some of the ridiculous phrasing that the games use to avoid having to say plurals?
15:11:42 <ais523_> and "a/an" prefixes, which are also a problem?
15:11:47 <wob_jonas> sadly it's not so in M:tG. M:tG is full of cards saying "all elves you control"
15:12:20 <wob_jonas> no, I haven't actually played the game
15:12:20 <izabera> step 1: disallow receiving multiple potions at once
15:12:32 <izabera> did i just fix all the i18n problems?
15:12:39 <wob_jonas> I think it wasn't popular here because the young kids who played game boy didn't speak enough english or japanese back then
15:13:04 <wob_jonas> izabera: what if you want to buy or sell them in the store?
15:13:15 <ais523_> even as late as gen 5, the version released in the UK had some interesting localisation problems
15:13:20 <ais523_> e.g. asking whether we preferred football or soccer
15:13:26 <izabera> wob_jonas: selling more items in a single setting in blasphemy
15:13:37 <Taneb> ais523_: I hope the options there were "YES" and "NO"
15:13:43 <Taneb> (I skipped 5th gen)
15:14:02 <izabera> ais523_: and do you play football or soccer?
15:14:33 <wob_jonas> ais523: wait, football appears in pokemon?
15:14:46 <ais523_> wob_jonas: lots of real world things appear in Pokémon
15:15:00 <wob_jonas> ais523: lots of real world things, sure
15:15:18 <ais523_> in gen 5 they have sports arenas where people play different sports each day, you don't actually get to watch though
15:15:21 <Taneb> izabera: just like in real life, eating rare candy makes you stronger
15:15:26 <wob_jonas> but football? is that in a video game, or a TCG, or in the anime, or something else?
15:15:34 <ais523_> it's mostly an excuse for recurring battles which you play against the spectators
15:15:43 <ais523_> wob_jonas: it's a football stadium containing football players
15:15:48 <ais523_> but they're not actually playing football
15:15:54 <ais523_> just running around and occasionally challenging you to battles
15:16:17 <izabera> is gen 5 the one with garbagemon?
15:16:34 <wob_jonas> ah, so you meet other trainers who challenge you saying "I don't like football, while all the people are watching the superbowl final, let's spend time more constructively"?
15:16:42 <Taneb> I haven't played much of Gen 6 either...
15:17:12 <izabera> i meant garbodor but anyway
15:17:49 <wob_jonas> all these card wording stranges will seem so strange to me
15:18:04 <wob_jonas> and I guess backwards too, the old wordings will seem strange to new players
15:18:11 <ais523_> wob_jonas: Pokémon was originally a video game
15:18:25 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but you're talking about gen 5, that's no longer "originally"
15:18:43 <ais523_> then they made an anime of the video game, a video game of the anime, a trading card game of the game and/or anime (possbily both merged), and a video game of the trading card game
15:18:51 <ais523_> and a number of spinoff video games too
15:19:39 <ais523_> originally the Pokémon universe featured non-Pokémon animals in addition to the Pokémon, maybe it still does
15:19:48 <wob_jonas> a video game of the anime too? I heard of the video game of the tcg
15:19:59 <ais523_> Pokémon Yellow: Special Pikachu Edition
15:20:09 <ais523_> it's basically the original games with the plot edited to match that of the anime
15:20:57 <wob_jonas> they're changing Lightning Bolt's text too?
15:21:10 <ais523_> "Deal 3 damage to any target" is shorter than the original
15:21:26 <ais523_> it was oracled to something else for ages
15:21:29 <Taneb> Is it semantically equivalent to the previous text
15:21:30 <ais523_> `card-by-name Lightning Bolt
15:21:31 <HackEgo> Lightning Bolt \ R \ Instant \ Lightning Bolt deals 3 damage to target creature or player. \ A-C, B-C, U-C, RV-C, 4E-C, M10-C, M11-C, MM2-U, E01-U, MED-C, PD2-C
15:21:44 <ais523_> they're changing the old text to mean something else
15:21:53 <ais523_> so they're errata-ing it to new text that matches its old functionality
15:21:58 <Taneb> Well, that just seems rude
15:22:09 <wob_jonas> they're errataing to approximate its old functionality
15:22:18 <ais523_> however, the original text from Alpha is, IIRC, closer to the newest text than the text it's had for most of its life
15:22:38 <ais523_> I'm at work, can someone look up what the printed text is on Alpha lightning bolt?
15:22:50 <ais523_> wob_jonas: OK, it can't hit hexproof planeswalkers now, that is indeed a change
15:22:57 <ais523_> (but it can hit planeswalkers controlled by hexproof players)
15:23:04 <ais523_> (which probably comes up more often)
15:23:05 <wob_jonas> "Lightning Bolt does 3 damage to one target"
15:23:20 <ais523_> oh, so very close to the new wording
15:23:29 <ais523_> the only change is "any" → "one", I think?
15:23:45 <wob_jonas> ais523: I wonder what Benevolent Unicorn's new text will be
15:23:52 <ais523_> `card-by-name Benevolent Unicorn
15:23:53 <HackEgo> Benevolent Unicorn \ 1W \ Creature -- Unicorn \ 1/2 \ If a spell would deal damage to a creature or player, it deals that much damage minus 1 to that creature or player instead. \ MI-C
15:24:00 <ais523_> wob_jonas: I believe it won't be changed
15:24:21 <ais523_> they gave algorithms for translating old card wording, because there will be so many printed cards with the old wording
15:24:26 <wob_jonas> and there's all those damage redirctor things, some of which like Pariah care about damage to players
15:24:40 <ais523_> and it's likely to be important for players to know what they do without checking Oracle
15:24:53 <ais523_> so the algorithms are being applied consistently to all but one card
15:24:57 <ais523_> `card-by-name Vial Smasher the Fierce
15:24:58 <HackEgo> Vial Smasher the Fierce \ 1BR \ Legendary Creature -- Goblin Berserker \ 2/3 \ Whenever you cast your first spell each turn, Vial Smasher the Fierce deals damage equal to that spell's converted mana cost to an opponent chosen at random. \ Partner (You can have two commanders if both have partner.) \ C16-M
15:25:26 <wob_jonas> Hmm, they never printed Lava Axe with the rules text centered and no flavor text?
15:25:42 <ais523_> (they haven't stated what's different about Vial Smasher, but the leading theory is that "opponent" is being changed to "opponent or planeswalker controlled by an opponent" even though the algorithm would say to leave it alone)
15:25:56 <wob_jonas> Lightning bolt does have such a printing though, and that will probably be impossible in the future
15:26:00 <ais523_> wob_jonas: probably because unlike most of the centred-text cards, which tend to be quite powerful
15:26:09 <ais523_> Lava Axe is actually a really bad card
15:26:45 <ais523_> e.g. there's a card that can do 6 damage to a player for 2RR but it has alternative modes too
15:27:34 <wob_jonas> powerful in limited or in constructed?
15:27:50 <ais523_> it's probably better in limited but I suspect it's bad in both
15:28:06 <ais523_> the problem being that by the time you've reached 5 mana, you have better things to do than 5 damage
15:28:33 <ais523_> unless the opponent is on 5 life or less, and even then the only real advantage of lava axe is that it has fewer spells that stop it than most finishers do
15:29:52 <ais523_> `card-by-name glorybringer
15:29:53 <HackEgo> Glorybringer \ 3RR \ Creature -- Dragon \ 4/4 \ Flying, haste \ You may exert Glorybringer as it attacks. When you do, it deals 4 damage to target non-Dragon creature an opponent controls. (An exerted creature won't untap during your next untap step.) \ AKH-R
15:30:04 <ais523_> that's an example of a 5-mana red finisher that's commonly used in Constructed
15:30:06 <wob_jonas> ais523: nah, that's not why I asked. I was wondering if some three-mana spot removal spell ever got that treatment, like Expunge but without a "can't be regenerated" rider
15:30:44 <ais523_> it can /almost/ Lava Axe someone (4 damage rather than 5, assuming they don't have a flying/reaching blocker), but it does a lot of other things too
15:30:50 <wob_jonas> cards that got that treatment are Giant Growth and Cancel, cards that are cheap in money but relatively powerful and go into many decks
15:34:33 <ais523_> actually they need two flying/reaching blockers unless one of them has hexproof, protection from red, or 5+ toughness
15:35:08 <ais523_> anyway, I've pretty much planned out how to write up this M:tG waterfall model
15:35:23 <ais523_> I just need the time and concentration to actually do it
15:35:34 <ais523_> I'm going to write a series of articles that can be read in either order
15:35:48 <wob_jonas> Murder was printed with rules text centered and no flavor text (and not in Portal)
15:35:50 <ais523_> in one direction you get the explanations first and see how it's used in practice later
15:35:56 <wob_jonas> so it must be the power in Limited that counts
15:36:05 <wob_jonas> Murder isn't good in Constructed, right?
15:36:08 <ais523_> in the other direction it starts with the deck and you have no idea where it's going
15:36:16 <ais523_> wob_jonas: it is but it's normally outclassed
15:36:21 <ais523_> `card-by-name Hero's Downfall
15:36:22 <HackEgo> Hero's Downfall \ 1BB \ Instant \ Destroy target creature or planeswalker. \ THS-R
15:36:57 <ais523_> people will play Murder if there's nothing better in the format, but normally there's either a Murder-with-upside (like Hero's Downfall), or a cheaper-Murder-with-downside-that-rarely-comes-up
15:37:22 <wob_jonas> ais523: in the casual environment we play, three-mana kill spells like that are rarely played, because there are so many good two-mana and one-mana spot removal for black, even if they're slightly less versatile than Murder
15:37:45 <HackEgo> Dismember \ 1(b/p)(b/p) \ Instant \ ({(b/p)} can be paid with either {B} or 2 life.) \ Target creature gets -5/-5 until end of turn. \ NPH-U, MM2-U
15:38:07 <ais523_> that's probably the closest equivalent that's played in Modern
15:38:20 <ais523_> the odds that you're up against something with 6 toughness are not high
15:38:52 <ais523_> and being able to trade life for mana on it makes it more useful than Murder is in the early game
15:39:07 <wob_jonas> although some three-mana ones get played for some advantage they offer: Eyeblight's Ending for searching with Elvish Harbinger and triggering Lys Alana; Hideous End for the extra damage
15:40:04 <wob_jonas> and yes, kill spells limited by toughness or mana cost or color or excluding some creatures are still useful
15:41:31 <HackEgo> Fatal Push \ B \ Instant \ Destroy target creature if it has converted mana cost 2 or less. \ Revolt -- Destroy that creature if it has converted mana cost 4 or less instead if a permanent you controlled left the battlefield this turn. \ AER-U
15:41:55 <ais523_> probably the best-known kill spell at the moment
15:42:01 <wob_jonas> on the other hand, there's some nostalgy involved because bad three-mana kill spells were among the first cards I bought: Seal of Doom and Expunge
15:42:10 <ais523_> because Revolt is really easy to trigger in eternal formats like Modern and Casual
15:46:53 <wob_jonas> these days I mostly play the black D-cards for destroy and discard: Disfigure, Deathmark, Darkblust, Duress, Doom Blade, ... um, Soul Reap? I should buy Dead Weight to continue this theme
15:47:30 <wob_jonas> (There's technically Distress and Douse in Gloom too, but I don't play them anymore.)
15:49:05 <wob_jonas> Let's see. They used "Murder" and "Assassinate" and "Slaughter". That leaves "Kill", "Slay", "Destroy" as names reserved for future iconic updates.
15:50:01 <wob_jonas> Pity "Remove" was used up for some portal junk
15:51:54 <wob_jonas> Will Harm's Way be able to redirect to a planeswalker now?
15:53:09 <wob_jonas> So there'll be a rule now that says what "any target" means?
15:53:21 <wob_jonas> or only "any target" when it's about dealing damage to it?
15:53:37 <wob_jonas> the former, that's what the article says
15:57:32 <wob_jonas> <annoyed> Why can't ANY of these several websites cataloging M:tG cards use a GOOD algorithm for what printing to select by default when you search for a card name?
15:58:33 <wob_jonas> I hate how they always show the ugly or fancy cards from all sorts of special low count reprints instead of the more common printings in expert expansions or core sets.
16:00:50 <wob_jonas> Ok, anyway the article says wait for the rules update bulletin to find out the specifics. I guess that's fair
16:01:47 <wob_jonas> "they" instead of "he or she" will also take some time getting used to. I wonder if there's any card where "they" or "them" will cause confusion or ambiguity because it could refer to something else.
16:02:20 <wob_jonas> That probably won't happen much, because in those cases "he or she" is already not likely to be used, "that player" getting used instead
16:03:47 <wob_jonas> And many times it's clear from context that a player is meant anyway
16:06:40 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Iwamori of the Open Fist
16:06:43 <HackEgo> Iwamori of the Open Fist \ 2GG \ Legendary Creature -- Human Monk \ 5/5 \ Trample \ When Iwamori of the Open Fist enters the battlefield, each opponent may put a legendary creature card from his or her hand onto the battlefield. \ BOK-R
16:06:44 <wob_jonas> an open fist is basically a hand, right?
16:15:13 <wob_jonas> Hmm... Llanowar Elves now has a very short rules text. Not as short as Raging Goblin though. Oh, that reminds me! Dark Ritual also has the centered rules text no flavor treatment. Imagine that saying just "Add {B}{B}{B}." in the center. That would be short. Probably won't happen though, because it's not likely to get reprinted much.
16:15:45 <wob_jonas> Well, it did get some reprints, including in Masters 25, so maybe it could happen.
16:16:19 <wob_jonas> It just has to be a set that's not legal in Modern, I guess.
16:17:20 <wob_jonas> Do creatures ever get the center no flavor text treatment?
16:22:48 <wob_jonas> There are several creatures whose rules text is just "Flying" or "Reach" or "Banding" or "Vigilance" or "Flanking", at least one each with just "Haste" or "Flash". (You can tell my age from how I'm not saying "Infect","Menace", "Prowess", "Skulk".)
16:23:17 <wob_jonas> The shortest keyword ability that can stand alone is probably "Fear" though. What creature has only "Fear" and no other ability?
16:25:42 <wob_jonas> Gluttonous Zombie, Prickly Boggart, Razortooth Rats, Severed Legion. No more I think.
16:25:46 <ais523_> centred-no-flavour is only for instants and sorceries, I think
16:26:01 <ais523_> you could make an argument that the textless vanilla creatures from Future Sight count …
16:26:11 <wob_jonas> An unfortunate interaction of the lack of "new world order" in the past and the lack of fear in the present
16:27:03 <wob_jonas> ais523: actually, old basic lands have the old rules text printed centered and no flavor text
16:27:31 <wob_jonas> I should've realized, I have some of those
16:43:10 <HackEgo> Oran-Rief Invoker \ 1G \ Creature -- Human Shaman \ 2/2 \ {8}: Oran-Rief Invoker gets +5/+5 and gains trample until end of turn. \ BFZ-C, DDR-C
16:43:22 <wob_jonas> they printed an improved Stonewood Invoker because the original was weak? interesting
16:52:38 <wob_jonas> wtf. Legendary gets a rules change AGAIN?
16:53:01 <alercah> the legend rule didn't change
16:53:11 <ais523_> if you're talking about the legendary sorcery thing
16:53:13 <wob_jonas> admittedly this one is fully backwards compatible
16:53:19 <ais523_> that seems to be a keyword mechanic that was made into a supertype for some bizarre reason
16:53:44 <ais523_> "you can't cast this spell unless you control a legendary creature or planeswalker" is /not/ what it does on any other card type
16:54:01 <ais523_> incidentally, there's a lot of confusion about that rule
16:54:18 <ais523_> because nobody seems sure whether it associates as "(legendary creature) or planeswalker" or "legendary (creature or planeswalker)"
16:54:38 <alercah> almost doesn't matter at all
16:54:45 <wob_jonas> It doesn't impact existing games because I believe there's an invariant that being (sorcery or instant) is a property that can never change on an object, in any direction
16:55:37 <ais523_> alercah: is that even the same object as the sorcery, though?
16:55:41 <ais523_> it becomes a new object when it changes zones
16:55:52 <ais523_> and is effectively a face-down creature that can't be turned face-up
16:56:09 <wob_jonas> And there's no way with existing cards to make a sorcery legendary, not even with Leyline of Singularity
16:56:43 <wob_jonas> I was thinking of that morph land from time spiral block
16:56:43 <alercah> ais523_: also the release notes are clear that it is legendary (creature or planeswalker)
16:58:08 <wob_jonas> I know they hate protection, but did they really need to do this?
16:58:10 <ais523_> wob_jonas: that's like the third time you've done that today
16:58:25 <ais523_> and not a single time has it been because you spilled water on your hygrometer
16:59:16 <ais523_> "hexproof from black" is less offensive when you see it as a fixed version of hexproof rather than a fixed version of protection
16:59:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: I've destroyed my previous keyboard by spilling water on it. that's not supposed to permanently destroy electronics, but it somehow did. I'm careful with drinks in this room since then.
16:59:50 <ais523_> I just felt sorry for the hygrometer; unlike basically any other piece of electronic equipment, it's aware that it's wet
16:59:57 <wob_jonas> I still get water on stuff in the bedroom and kitchen I guess, and outdoors
17:00:08 <wob_jonas> I've got water on non-waterproof objects outdoors in the rain
17:00:29 <wob_jonas> rain sensors in modern cars are also aware
17:00:59 <wob_jonas> but yes, I can understand why you feel sorry for it
17:01:01 <ais523_> hmm, I guess those are likely to be moisture sensors rather than hygrometers? the two are pretty similar in concept, anyway
17:01:17 <ais523_> at least the hygrometer can tell me it's wet so that I can dry it off :-)
17:01:35 <ais523_> (I don't feel the cold, which can be quite dangerous in this weather as being unable to percieve it doesn't actually make me immune to its effects)
17:01:40 <wob_jonas> no, I think they're just cameras that look for water droplets, and they don't even get wet because they're behind a windshield
17:01:52 <ais523_> (so I've started carrying a thermometer around, but this one came with a clock and a hygrometer and a moonphase display attached to it)
17:02:12 <wob_jonas> I should buy two thermometers here (an indoor and an outdoor one)
17:02:32 <wob_jonas> I can feel cold, but still, I need more precise measurements
17:02:37 <ais523_> when I'm indoors, I check the outdoors temperature by using the Internet to connect to a nearby weather station
17:02:45 <lambdabot> EGBB 221650Z 23009KT 200V260 9999 OVC030 08/01 Q1014
17:03:16 <wob_jonas> As for hexproof from black, the article explicitly says "A Knight of noble lineage, Knight of Grace harkens back to an earlier era and the hallowed White Knight."
17:03:34 <wob_jonas> How should I not consider it as a ruined protection ability after that?
17:04:05 <ais523_> clearly WOTC are treating it as one based on that
17:04:24 <wob_jonas> there might be other cards where it's not so
17:04:24 <ais523_> there are quite a few cases where the difference doesn't matter
17:04:45 <ais523_> e.g. both versions of Emrakul have a "protection from …" which could equivalently be "hexproof from …"
17:05:02 <ais523_> although they won't be errata'd because a few cards check for creatures with protection abilities specifically
17:05:13 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Display of Dominance
17:05:14 <HackEgo> Display of Dominance \ 1G \ Instant \ Choose one -- \ Destroy target blue or black noncreature permanent. \ Permanents you control can't be the targets of blue or black spells your opponents control this turn. \ DTK-U
17:05:22 <ais523_> nontargeting instants that deal damage would work differently
17:05:35 <HackEgo> Karplusan Strider \ 3G \ Creature -- Yeti \ 3/4 \ Karplusan Strider can't be the target of blue or black spells. \ CSP-U, 10E-U, MM2-U
17:05:41 <ais523_> I assume some of those exist although I can't think of any offhand, nontargeted damage is normally from sorceries
17:05:48 <HackEgo> Mercenary Informer \ 2W \ Creature -- Human Rebel Mercenary \ 2/1 \ Mercenary Informer can't be the target of black spells or abilities from black sources. \ {2}{W}: Put target nontoken Mercenary on the bottom of its owner's library. \ PR-R
17:06:06 <ais523_> wob_jonas: none of those are "hexproof from" though, except possibly Display of Dominance
17:06:09 <HackEgo> Autumn's Veil \ G \ Instant \ Spells you control can't be countered by blue or black spells this turn, and creatures you control can't be the targets of blue or black spells this turn. \ M11-U, M12-U
17:06:22 <wob_jonas> which is funny because the "blue or black" is almost redundant
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17:06:35 <wob_jonas> it's rare to get your spells countered by a spell that's not (blue or black)
17:06:36 <HackEgo> Mana Tithe \ W \ Instant \ Counter target spell unless its controller pays {1}. \ PLC-C
17:08:52 * ais523_ idly wonders what the simplest hypothetical Magic card would be that's Turing-complete by itself
17:09:29 <ais523_> err, that uses only existing black-bordered mechanics
17:09:36 <wob_jonas> wow, Planar Chaos actually has three, including one that's sort of like a time-shifted Intervene but not quite
17:10:53 <wob_jonas> ais523: by itself? it would either have to have the basic ability from Relentless Rats, or some other strange rule so you can build a deck with it by itself. even Momir Vig Avatar needs basic lands.
17:11:08 <wob_jonas> or would you allow some basic lands with it?
17:11:13 <ais523_> wob_jonas: I mean the only permanents in play are copies of it
17:11:22 <ais523_> not that it can do the setup by itself
17:12:19 <wob_jonas> could you have interesting effects helping the combo that aren't on permanents? like "for the rest of the game" or "until end of turn" effects, or abilities active from the graveyard?
17:13:05 <wob_jonas> with Wizards cards we likely need permanents for TC-ness, but if you want hypothetical cards, we probably don't need any
17:13:10 <ais523_> our current core for the actual computation is rotlung reanimator, noxious ghoul, hungry lynx, and something that gives a static -X/-2 effect (it'd be interesting if this last part could be omitted, it doesn't seem impossible)
17:13:57 <ais523_> and static effects in the graveyard or that aren't attached to anything feels like cheating, unless they edit the text of the permanent (in the style of Artificial Evolution)
17:14:06 <wob_jonas> right, and some of those can be swapped out for other cards, although I haven't seen anyone find a combo without Rotlung Reanimator yet
17:14:41 <wob_jonas> in fact, looking for alternate potential methods that don't use Rotlung Reanimator might be worthy in itself, just to see that the TC-ness isn't fragile and doesn't depend on one stupid card
17:15:17 <ais523_> you basically need a way to replace a creature when it dies
17:15:45 <wob_jonas> sort of... but in some good enough way
17:15:49 <ais523_> Rotlung Reanimator with both creature types equal is all that's needed for my M:tG-implemented TC language (I think Alex Churchill's uses both creature types)
17:16:09 <HackEgo> Young Wolf \ G \ Creature -- Wolf \ 1/1 \ Undying (When this creature dies, if it had no +1/+1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a +1/+1 counter on it.) \ DKA-C
17:16:16 <HackEgo> Solemnity \ 2W \ Enchantment \ Players can't get counters. \ Counters can't be put on artifacts, creatures, enchantments, or lands. \ HOU-R
17:16:21 <wob_jonas> for power reasons, most such reanimation cards try to be not repeatable, so you can't just infinitely replace your creatures
17:16:35 <ais523_> but I'm not sure there are enough different creature types among Undying and Persist creatures to make the construction viable
17:16:40 <wob_jonas> Rotlung Reanimator tries to avoid that by the different creature types
17:16:44 <ais523_> as they'll forget the text edits when they die
17:17:22 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
17:17:23 <HackEgo> Mikaeus, the Unhallowed \ 3BBB \ Legendary Creature -- Zombie Cleric \ 5/5 \ Intimidate (This creature can't be blocked except by artifact creatures and/or creatures that share a color with it.) \ Whenever a Human deals damage to you, destroy it. \ Other non-Human creatures you control get +1/+1 and have undying. (When a creature with undying dies,
17:17:31 <ais523_> clearly we'll need a conspiracy that gives things persist
17:17:39 <ais523_> oh yes, Mikaeus would work
17:20:32 <wob_jonas> I wonder if there's some way to mandatorily make creatures become a copy of some other creature.
17:20:39 <HackEgo> Infinite Reflection \ 5U \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant creature \ When Infinite Reflection enters the battlefield attached to a creature, each other nontoken creature you control becomes a copy of that creature. \ Nontoken creatures you control enter the battlefield as a copy of enchanted creature. \ AVR-R, C14-R
17:21:07 <wob_jonas> it's probably either impossible, or at least harder than the other routes
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17:23:36 <HackEgo> Mass Appeal \ 2U \ Sorcery \ Draw a card for each Human you control. \ AVR-U \ \ Mass Calcify \ 5WW \ Sorcery \ Destroy all nonwhite creatures. \ SHM-R, M15-R \ \ Mass Hysteria \ R \ Enchantment \ All creatures have haste. \ MRD-R \ \ Mass Mutiny \ 3RR \ Sorcery \ For each opponent, gain control of up to one target creature that player controls
17:23:46 <HackEgo> Permeating Mass \ G \ Creature -- Spirit \ 1/3 \ Whenever Permeating Mass deals combat damage to a creature, that creature becomes a copy of Permeating Mass. \ EMN-R
17:24:15 <ais523_> uncontrollable effects are probably fine, it's not much different from writing in INTERCAL
17:25:35 <wob_jonas> only without such useful statements as array element assignment and indexed return
17:26:11 <ais523_> what language are you trying to implement? still The Waterfall Model?
17:26:22 <ais523_> I've been wondering about implementing the I/D machine in Magic but I can't see a good way to emulate the RAM
17:26:34 <wob_jonas> I'm just looking at what's available at first
17:27:19 <wob_jonas> that's a huge leap. you could go to something in between, as in, something with a stack or queue of symbols so there's no exponential slowdown, but without a full RAM
17:27:49 <ais523_> I didn't mean in terms of speed
17:27:54 <ais523_> just wondering what data storages were possible
17:28:14 <wob_jonas> I know the I/D machine is simple to define, but it doesn't sound like simple to implement
17:29:43 <wob_jonas> similarly I wouldn't try to store conses (recursive data types that aren't just a list but can branch out as any binary tree) in M:tG like you'd need to emulate unlambda or underload
17:30:57 <wob_jonas> Consumer society, that esolang I've been promising to create for a while, it's also one that's easy to define for humans, but it's specifically not easy to implement. It's probably harder to implement than even unlambda or underload or anything like that.
17:32:07 <ais523_> that said, it surely can't be as hard as Tableaux :-P
17:32:37 <ais523_> even though Tableaux's only primitives are zero, increment, dereference pointer
17:32:43 <ais523_> (it's what they're pointing into that's hard to implement)
17:33:17 <wob_jonas> I'm going to write a reference interpreter for it that implements it (up to some resource limits).
17:33:58 <wob_jonas> I mean not Tableaux, but Consumer society
17:34:59 <wob_jonas> I decided it's not very spoiler, you can't guess the main trick of the language from it, so I can reveal it
17:35:32 <ais523_> hmm, languages with spoilers
17:35:36 <ais523_> I haven't made one of those since Incident
17:35:47 <ais523_> which has a spoiler-free version of the semantics in addition to my guide talking about the language
17:35:54 <wob_jonas> That language also has very few primitives, and one of them is like the parenthesis in Underload, grouping some code to a single block you can manipulate as a whole but will later be opened and ran
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17:36:28 <wob_jonas> and the language can also be considered to have two stacks, a data stack and a call stack, like underload
17:36:36 <wob_jonas> or considered as a term-rewriting language
17:36:56 <wob_jonas> and these two stacks provide for turing-completeness
17:37:01 <wob_jonas> but that's about where the similarity ends
17:37:40 <wob_jonas> there's still the main twist, which is something that is used in some languages other than underload, but the innovation here is using only that and nothing else to make a full languae
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17:56:23 <wob_jonas> Which one is harder in the real world? https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/whistle or https://www.xkcd.com/666/ ? And would you do the former with some hidden electronics?
18:04:32 <Slereah> well there are no silent hammers
18:05:08 <wob_jonas> Slereah: maybe no, but there are some methods to make hammering more silent.
18:06:27 <boily> I think the SMBC is easier.
18:34:53 <esowiki> [[Fueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54448&oldid=54424 * Oerjan * (+797) /* Computational class */ New and improved. Now with parallelism!
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19:45:06 <wob_jonas> these password requirements are horrible!
19:46:30 <wob_jonas> I can't choose a proper password because it has ridiculous and undescribe requirements
19:46:55 <esowiki> [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54449&oldid=54341 * DMC * (-105)
19:49:05 <esowiki> [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54450&oldid=54449 * DMC * (+56)
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22:12:32 <esowiki> [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54451&oldid=54450 * DMC * (-77)
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01:48:03 <fungot> boily: but there's no debian package for mit scheme, but it isn't
01:48:20 <boily> fungot: of course there's a .deb floating somewhere. there always is one.
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06:31:55 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * FAKE1007 * New user account
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06:42:43 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54452&oldid=54438 * FAKE1007 * (+179)
06:43:02 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54453&oldid=54011 * FAKE1007 * (+30)
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15:12:34 <esowiki> [[HI9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54456&oldid=52738 * Hq9++fan * (+54)
15:14:40 <esowiki> [[H9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54457&oldid=33065 * Hq9++fan * (+2) original HQ9+ used "h" and "" instead of "H" and "!"
15:18:22 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54458&oldid=51322 * Hq9++fan * (-9) Do not use fake subscript.
15:21:21 <esowiki> [[HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54459&oldid=52708 * Hq9++fan * (+20) /* See also */
15:23:55 <esowiki> [[GolfJoke]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54460&oldid=53180 * Hq9++fan * (+60)
15:24:09 <izabera> >unironically working on hq9+
15:25:37 <Taneb> We need an updated HQ9+ for the modern programmer
15:26:06 <Taneb> 99 Bottles of Beer isn't really relevent to the zeitgeist any more
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15:29:02 <wob_jonas> Taneb: there's the object-oriented HQ9++, and there's a lot of more powerful golfing languages
15:30:30 <wob_jonas> and I think there's some other HQ9+-like joke language
15:30:43 <Taneb> CHIQXP9+ or soemthing
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15:59:29 <danil> ^ul (Hello, world!)S
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20:19:49 <lambdabot> LOWI 231950Z VRB01KT 9999 FEW040 BKN070 03/M01 Q1004 R08/29//95 NOSIG
20:22:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 42: not found
20:22:39 <boily> there's something dubious going on with w.
20:22:39 <HackEgo> nothing//Nothing would have been better than to create this wisdom entry.
20:22:48 <lambdabot> CYUL 232000Z 22009KT 30SM BKN080 BKN150 OVC210 04/M05 A3001 RMK AC5AC2CI1 SLP165
20:22:49 <HackEgo> 1/2:zomgmodules//ZOMGMODULES is both a small blonde veterinarian and just modules over the ring of ZOMGs. \ usual suspect//There are 3.99 usual suspects in #esoteric, but they're usually rounded up. \ it'//It's written with an apostrophe. \ redundancy//Since redundancy exists, it's redundant for Taneb to invent it. \ orin//orin is oren's
20:22:55 <HackEgo> 2/2:evil twin, stalking him from the other side of the international date line.
20:24:20 <int-e> Typical CaC high performance cluster fuck.
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20:29:26 <boily> any plans on switching providers to something that providely provides, instead of crashing?
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20:34:37 <int-e> fungot: do you like crashing?
20:34:37 <fungot> int-e: same here. thus why i like basic with goto only, only the vm builds...
20:34:45 <int-e> ^8ball are crashes good for you?
20:34:52 <int-e> ^8ball do you like this?
20:34:57 <fungot> int-e: i improved the fnord a content-length header is mandatory.
20:35:15 <fungot> int-e: fnord/ users/ fnord/ article/ 550.html i think it sucks
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20:53:06 <boily> fungot: nostrils are part of you. you can't forget them.
20:53:06 <fungot> boily: back to job-hunting, but i
20:54:35 <fungot> doesthiswork: i'm really glad to hear that. i think i have a pile of shit. :p ( what was causing it. i was planning to sue you
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21:16:43 <fizzie> It's a sad that fungot obviously hates its job. :/
21:16:44 <fungot> fizzie: it seems vim's next revision will have scheme inside.
21:17:48 <lambdabot> KSJC 232053Z 00000KT 10SM FEW018 SCT050 BKN060 15/03 A3018 RMK AO2 SLP219 T01500028 58020
21:20:35 <FireFly> fungot: wouldn't surprise me
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23:15:26 <zzo38> Finally I got it to boot, although the bookmark file for Firefox seems to contain an error now.
23:15:35 <lambdabot> shachaf said 2d 4h 55m 47s ago: Remove the disk first?
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23:33:59 <zzo38> Do you know how to recover data from a malformed SQLite database? It is causing the location bar in Firefox to not work.
23:34:17 <shachaf> That depends on whata makes it malformed.
23:36:13 <zzo38> I don't know what makes it malformed.
23:36:51 <shachaf> Is the file made up of all zeros? If so I don't know how to recover data.
23:38:18 <zzo38> The schema seems intact, and a lot of the data is still present and can be readable.
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23:39:36 <zzo38> A command such as "select url from moz_places, moz_bookmarks on moz_places.id = moz_bookmarks.fk where moz_bookmarks.title = 'kaiji';" still works and returns the correct URL, but if I change 'kaiji' to 'freeheromesh' then I get a error about malformed database. Neither record is listed by "select moz_bookmarks.title || ' = ' || url from moz_places, moz_bookmarks on moz_places.id = moz_bookmarks.fk where not hidden;" though.
23:40:14 <zzo38> I tried vacuum but it gives the message "Error: UNIQUE constraint failed: moz_places.id"
23:42:57 <zzo38> I could try renaming the file and then seeing if Firefox recreates it, and then I can try moving the data with a INSERT OR IGNORE statement, maybe.
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23:46:05 <zzo38> Well, simply deleting the file caused it to recover all of the data.
23:46:45 <zzo38> The history is gone, but all of the bookmarks have been restored.
23:48:15 <zzo38> However, now the SQL query I used to enumerate the bookmarks lists only one record, although Firefox can find all of them.
23:48:30 <shachaf> Cale: Did you get your Super Mega book?
00:10:34 <zzo38> I changed the SQL query so that it works now.
00:15:13 <zzo38> (I changed "where not hidden" to "where parent = 2")
00:22:40 <zzo38> I am not sure if it is using the swap partition I have defined. How do I set that?
00:22:50 <zzo38> (And how do I check?)
00:26:12 <zzo38> I checked and it is listing /dev/dm-0 as the swap partition. However, that is the old drive and I want it to use /dev/sda2 instead.
00:29:15 <zzo38> (/dev/dm-0 is a LVM partition on the old hard drive, I think. The new one is not using LVM.)
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01:11:19 <zzo38> Somehow it ignored a command in /etc/fstab that I forgot to change, for mounting the root filesystem. Why is that?
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03:31:29 <esowiki> [[Fueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54461&oldid=54448 * Oerjan * (+278) /* Computational class */ Added some support for automating this. (This is enough to e.g. make the Thue-Morse sequence program work.)
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03:51:05 <oerjan> this may be a slightly evil use of OverloadedStrings.
04:05:23 <zzo38> I don't like the new meaning of "any target" in Magic: the Gathering, and think it should say "target damageable" or something similar
04:07:40 <pikhq> The templating feels a bit weird, I agree.
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04:16:29 <zzo38> Changing words to "this spell" is fine. Singular "they" saves words and is fine as long as you don't use it in a confusing way (the real problem is English language, not Magic: the Gathering). I am neutral on the new legendary frame (but I prefer the old old frame, and art style, anyways). The separator line for flavor text is OK.
04:16:35 <oerjan> zzo38: http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/fueue/Ul2Fueue.hs
04:18:42 <zzo38> Removing "to your mana pool" and just writing "add" seems not quite good to me; possibly "you get" might be better than "add". When it refers to other mana, something like "you get mana equal to [object]'s mana cost" might be better. I don't quite know for sure.
04:20:12 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, I suppose that it is a bit strange, but I suppose it can work
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09:47:50 <izabera> soooo if i'm a noob and i want to get in the neural network craze
09:48:00 <izabera> and i have libraries that do the thing for me
09:48:18 <izabera> how do i tell how many layers and how many nodes per layer i need?
09:50:52 <shachaf> just borrow someone else's thing and tweak it hth
09:52:19 <izabera> shachaf: how many layers and how many nodes per layer did you use in your latest neural network thingy?
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09:56:42 <izabera> let's go with 10 nodes per layer with 1 hidden layer
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14:03:20 <wob_jonas> zzo38: re M:tG changes, we were talking about those a day ago
14:04:20 <wob_jonas> 'possibly "you get" might be better than "add"' please no. don't overload 'get', it is already used for putting p/t bonuses on objects
14:05:26 <wob_jonas> Question. It is well-known that if someone works in a beer factory or salami factory, then they won't drink beer or eat salami anymore, because they know how it's made. But I also know that people who work on making wine do drink the same wine.
14:05:45 <wob_jonas> Is there a compliation somewhere of testimonies of which products are and aren't consumed by their makers?
14:05:59 <wob_jonas> And I don't mean the leaders, like Elon Musk driving a Tesla, but the little men.
14:07:28 <wob_jonas> I guess this would be hard to collect, because most products are made in East Asia now
14:08:18 <wob_jonas> Whereas the beer, salami, and wine are made here in Europe
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14:38:01 <int-e> what about software engineers...
14:38:53 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, I know way too much about that, and there's some things I won't trust computers with because of that
14:39:23 <int-e> how do you feel about self-driving cars?
14:39:31 <int-e> or something simpler, pacemakers?
14:40:47 <wob_jonas> pacemakers are old, they've been around already when I was young, so they're probably engineered safely. I wouldn't think they have software problems.
14:41:42 <int-e> Uh, nope. They're being improved, and one of the big improvements is programmability.
14:41:48 <wob_jonas> I remember the first time they made MRI (magnetic resonance imaging) for me. They made me take off my glasses, then led me through a door that had like twelve different safety warning signs, so quickly that even if I had my glasses on I wouldn't have time to read all of them.
14:42:28 <wob_jonas> int-e: of course they're improved! they have better batteries now, so the battery needs to be replaced less often. that's very important, because replacing the battery is a somewhat risky surgical procedure.
14:42:31 <int-e> first google hit http://www.zdnet.com/article/fda-forces-st-jude-pacemaker-recall-to-patch-security-vulnerabilities/
14:42:49 <int-e> (query: pacemaker security)
14:44:27 <wob_jonas> why do they make pacemakers like that?
14:45:20 <wob_jonas> so what's the implication? if you use a pacemaker, should you travel back in time to the 90s and get one implanted then? or is that a no-win too because of the battery?
14:45:58 <wob_jonas> or maybe to the 2000s when the implantation procedure would have less risks of side effects?
14:46:03 <int-e> It's a no win for several reasons... these things are programmable mainly for the patients' benefit.
14:46:45 <wob_jonas> even with a good pacemaker it sucks
14:47:17 <int-e> It's the typical IoT scenario really... you get an implementation of many good features, but security isn't part of the traditional design process so it's easily overlooked.
14:47:41 <int-e> Oh, that goes without saying.
14:47:52 <wob_jonas> int-e: I was mostly thinking of the situation with home automation and electronic door locks
14:48:11 <int-e> That's also worrying.
14:48:16 <wob_jonas> I wouldn't want to use either. but some cheap hotels already use them.
14:48:57 <wob_jonas> I'm worried about the electronic locks when I can't get *out* if the electronic part goes wrong. Some installations suck and work like that. Most avoid it.
14:50:15 <int-e> Yeah locking people in *should* be a no-go area.
14:52:13 <wob_jonas> Door in this house has an electronic lock. While it can't be opened with a key, and can be opened only with a button from the inside, I'm not too worried. It's one of those old types with only a microcontroller controlling it, no elaborate operating system. And I think it's the type that fails to open if you turn off the electricity, which I think
14:52:44 <wob_jonas> I can get locked *out*, but not very easily, and that doesn't worry me too much.
14:53:47 <wob_jonas> Door in my parent's house, where I lived for long. That one has an electronic lock combined with a mechanical key. For a while it was installed properly, so you could open it with either the mechanical key or the keypad.
14:55:09 <wob_jonas> But even the mechanical key just triggered the electronic device. Then they modified the installation so the mechanical key doesn't do anything (except lock the door so it can't be opened without using the mechanical key again, a fallback feature used only for when the electronic lock goes wrong and we disable it),
14:55:58 <wob_jonas> which sucks because the keypad does have a tendency to not work in the winter. At some point, before that I think, the door failed in some way that it couldn't be opened at all, not from the inside, not from the outside, for a few days. I no longer remember what the problem was.
14:56:36 <wob_jonas> For those few days we could only enter and exit through the garage door. That one can be opened without a key from the inside, but not at all from the outside.
14:57:14 <wob_jonas> Mind you, mechanical safety doors on apartments can also sometimes fail in such a way that you can't open them at all, mostly because the hinges get tired.
14:58:25 <wob_jonas> Computer lab in university has an electronic lock properly done. You enter with access card or a mechanical key, many people have access card but only few people have a key; you exit with a doorknob that works fully mechanically.
14:58:36 <int-e> Yeah, I almost mentioned the possibility of mechanical failure.
14:59:45 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, I'm worried about mechanical failure too. I even replaced an old lock because of that, because I was worried someone would get locked in. The lock was fine, but everyone kept losing the key, and they used replacements that were copies of copies, possibly even copies of copies of copies.
14:59:59 <int-e> I'd feel better if there always was such a purely mechanical way of opening the door from the inside.
15:00:17 <wob_jonas> So now at that place there's a lock I installed, I have two of the three original keys, and I make copies in a copier I trust.
15:00:40 <int-e> (And fortunately that's the case at work... electronic lock outside, door handle on the inside.)
15:00:48 <wob_jonas> Maybe I only have one of the three original keys? Let me check.
15:01:06 <wob_jonas> I have one of the three original keys and one copy.
15:02:01 <wob_jonas> My father has two originals. That might have been an unwise decision, but there's not much I could have done. I can't take care of two originals better than one original, but I could have given one to my brother perhaps.
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15:04:20 <wob_jonas> int-e: door handle on the inside can still be purely mechanical or triggering the electronics
15:06:29 <int-e> that one is mechanical
15:07:55 <int-e> In fact the electronic lock just blocks or frees the outer door handle (it's an office door), and the inner one can be pushed independently from the outer one.
15:08:15 <int-e> so I feel quite good about that particular mechanism
15:08:48 <wob_jonas> At our workplace, we mostly had mechanical only locks, with one exception, an electronic lock with a keypad that closed a corridor of the office that has the server room and a few rooms of other companies. They installed that electronic lock mostly to close off a toilet, really, because the server room was protected properly with a mechanical key.
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15:10:45 <wob_jonas> The most common failure of the mechanical lock was when a new coworker couldn't stay in late because they haven't got a copy of the key of their room yet. There was one door that was difficult to open because the hinges were installed wrong, but they fixed that later. And there were some problems with damaged mechanical keys, fixed by making new co
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17:48:48 <HackEgo> Titles J. K. Rowling had specifically denied on her webpage would be the titles of the sixth or seventh Harry Potter book are: Harry Potter and the{ Green Flame Torch, Mountain of Fantasy, Fortress of Shadows, Forest of Shadows, Graveyard of Memories, Pyramids of Furmat, Pillar of Storgé, Toenail of Icklibõgg}.
17:55:26 <int-e> I think that boily would approve. (but for no particular reason)
17:55:29 <wob_jonas> In the #esoteric logs before 2016-08-02, where do we discuss the following probability paradox? Card game. Dealer has ten cards, 4 to K inclusive of hearts, you have ten cards, 4 to K inclusive of spades.
17:55:29 <wob_jonas> In each round, you discard a card of your choice from your hand, then dealer discards a random card from his hand, both face up. The player with higher rank of card takes the round, if equal rank nobody takes it. After ten rounds, if a player took fewer rounds than the opponent, then they pay 10 silver pieces to opponent. On a tie, nobody pays. Is
17:55:30 <wob_jonas> there a strategy you can play to win a positive expected value of money?
18:01:09 <wob_jonas> I'm re-reading the logs. There's some other intersting maths problems on this channel.
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18:18:18 <zzo38> wob_jonas: You say no that is why I said, I am unsure.
18:18:59 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sorry what? what's the context?
18:19:37 <zzo38> wob_jonas: About adding mana into your mana pool. I think "add [mana] into your mana pool" is probably best actually, although it is long
18:21:24 <wob_jonas> I like the "add ... to your mana pool" phrasing
18:22:52 <zzo38> (And I don't know about if there is strategy to win at such a card game you described)
18:23:37 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I know the solution for that problem, I'd just like to see our discussion
18:27:31 <int-e> hmm I wasn't around for this discussion or I forgot about it... need to ponder.
18:28:05 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, it's a good puzzle, that's why I don't want to spoil it
18:28:11 <zzo38> You can know what card has already been played (but I don't know if that helps)
18:28:33 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yes, you can know that. that's why face up is important
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18:42:08 <esowiki> [[Deadfish/Constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54462&oldid=51825 * Hq9++fan * (-70) remove fake superscripts; please respect the font designer who made the "" glyph!
18:45:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54463&oldid=37802 * Hq9++fan * (+172) /* Arithmetic questions (storage, overflow) */ new section
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19:27:22 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54464&oldid=53189 * Hq9++fan * (-11) /* Jokes */ link update
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20:13:48 <HackEgo> The Enrichment Center is required to remind you that you will be baked, and then there will be cake.
20:13:51 <HackEgo> Cubes come in all sizes, colors, and materials, but only one shape.
20:13:58 <HackEgo> There's cake inside it. Tear it apart, rip open your companion, and extract the delicious, delicious cake...
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20:30:19 <esowiki> [[Turing number]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54465 * Singingbanana * (+1567) Created page with "THIS IS A WORK IN PROGRESS. IT WILL NEVER END BEING ONE, AS INFINITE THINGS CAN BE SAID ABOUT IT. A Turing number is the concept of numbering the operations of a Turing mach..."
20:33:08 <esowiki> [[User:Singingbanana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54466&oldid=54406 * Singingbanana * (+81)
20:35:13 <HackEgo> Hello, and again, welcome to the Aperture Science Computer Aided Internet Relay Chat & Enrichment Center. Please enjoy your stay at #esoteric, because you will never leave.
20:47:33 <esowiki> [[RAM0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54467&oldid=54342 * Ais523 * (+82) /* Computational class */ mention the I/D machine
20:49:26 <esowiki> [[TriINTERCAL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54468&oldid=32452 * Ais523 * (+1) /* Examples */ punctuation
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21:37:49 <Roger9> Goto statements are basically portals in instruction space
21:38:16 <moony> s/portals/one way portals/
21:40:08 <moony> i mean, if you make goto's two way portals, it's not a goto anymore, it's a function
21:40:21 <moony> s/function/function call and return/
21:41:11 <esowiki> [[Dc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54469&oldid=40344 * Ais523 * (+734) computational class
21:41:42 <Roger9> That would be three portals, though, because the line you return on (where in instruction space it is) isn't the same as the line that starts the procedure (the portal you exit when you enter the call).
21:41:49 <wob_jonas> @tell ais523 they are printing a center rules text only Llanowar Elves. https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/promos-dominaria-2018-03-22 says so.
21:42:46 <wob_jonas> I'll stick to my "penalty to trespassing" ones though.
21:44:35 <wob_jonas> (But not one of Cast Down for some reason.)
21:51:33 <zzo38> I want them to print the cards without reminder text; they don't need the reminder text and it gets in the way. Exception is basic lands (except Wastes) that have a text box but no flavor text; they can have reminder text.
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22:41:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54470&oldid=54463 * Ais523 * (+755) /* Arithmetic questions (storage, overflow) */ r to Hq9++fan
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22:49:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54471&oldid=54470 * Ais523 * (+433) /* Arithmetic questions (storage, overflow) */ update
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00:39:01 <zzo38> Just shortening "add [mana] to your mana pool" as "add [mana]" is not that bad compared to "any target" which is much more bad.
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02:05:21 <oerjan> fizzie: is it on purpose that the esowiki announcements censor unicode characters?
02:13:41 <fizzie> oerjan: I think I may have applied a whitelist instead of a blacklist.
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02:14:00 <fizzie> I'm on a TRAIN with terrible connectivity, so can't check.
02:14:20 <fizzie> Possibly it's not entirely on purpose.
02:14:58 <fizzie> (It's also possible it's something in MediaWiki doing it.)
02:16:23 <fizzie> This is one slow train. :/
02:21:23 <fizzie> shachaf: It is! It's a local, I didn't feel like waiting an hour for the express, even though this one is in MTV only 23 minutes earlier.
02:23:29 <fizzie> The interweb on my phone is actually better on this train than it was in SF. Not sure why that is. Maybe it's something about 4G, which I don't get here in the US.
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02:50:33 <oerjan> . o O ( do cal trains have trouble with caltrops )
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03:32:28 <zzo38> I used Parted Magic to copy the data to the new hard drive and make backups onto DVD and so on, and found that it runs everything as root (you will get a "#" prompt if you open the terminal window), and while full versions of some programs (tar, awk, cdrecord, firefox, and some others) are included, some (dc, vi) are much more limited than the normal ones, and there are no man pages.
03:33:32 <zzo38> Unlike the normal dc, their dc requires spaces between commands, and lacks many commands (including q and [] and registers), but does have bitwise operations.
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05:21:52 <esowiki> [[Unary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54472&oldid=49091 * Hq9++fan * (-4) Replaced 4 fake superscripts with their proper counterparts.
05:27:30 * oerjan doesn't know whether to be annoyed at those edits or not.
05:28:26 <shachaf> I prefer the <sup> version.
05:29:40 <zzo38> I think the edit should be reversed
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05:39:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54473&oldid=54471 * Zzo38 * (+589)
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13:22:54 <esowiki> [[Channels-N]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54474 * Singingbanana * (+400) Created page with "This language is named so after a idea that we can have a system of open gutters to carry data. If I put a 2 in a gutter, that 2 sails by a "neighborhood rule" to another gut..."
13:28:59 <esowiki> [[Turing number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54475&oldid=54465 * Singingbanana * (+278)
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17:41:06 <zzo38> Do you like this? http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/heromesh.ui/wiki?name=Features
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23:55:31 <oerjan> *sigh* the bug that months ago caused me to change the server i use to read mail has now spread to the new server :(
23:57:11 <boily> bonsϿirjan. contagious bug?
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00:06:20 <oerjan> boily: i assume they recently updated the debian servers as well to something that includes it.
00:07:04 <oerjan> boily: basically, i read mail on alpine via an NFS mount, and with the change the locking is no longer done properly, and alpine panics.
00:07:37 <oerjan> (i assume it's NFS that has changed its behavior.)
00:08:45 <oerjan> (previously, i had the problem on their fedora server (which is still use for irc.)
00:09:20 <oerjan> i probably should look into changing alpine to use IMAP or whatever.
00:11:04 <oerjan> i assume whoever changed the NFS clients doesn't consider it a bug. maybe it's just a different configuration default.
00:11:15 <boily> as a sanity expert, I think IMAP is saner.
00:11:45 <oerjan> it will still keep the mail in my inbox even after i read it, right?
00:12:21 <oerjan> (i should clean it up and move things to other folders some day, it's up to 2000 messages.)
00:13:44 <oerjan> it started growing fiercely once agora got active again.
00:14:29 <boily> I had a custom mutt binary setup against my gmail account. it was pretty nice!
00:14:46 <boily> (custom because I was experimenting with GPG and stuff.)
00:16:07 <oerjan> i've never got an gmail account, or google anything account.
00:16:30 <oerjan> still using the old student club email.
00:18:29 <oerjan> incidentally, since i can never remember this, i looked up on the web how to find out what distro the server was running. the suggestion i found was cat /etc/issue ...
00:19:20 <boily> it works. “Ubuntu Bionic Beaver (development branch) \n \l”
00:19:43 <oerjan> guess what my output was.
00:21:12 <boily> Apple Windows 16.04?
00:21:13 <shachaf> no, that really is my guess
00:21:28 <oerjan> shachaf: i did not try it on HackEgo hth
00:21:36 <HackEgo> cat: /etc/issue: No such file or directory
00:21:39 <oerjan> Kernel \r on an \m (\l)
00:21:48 <shachaf> try cat /etc/lsb-release hth
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00:22:08 <oerjan> shachaf: i did find cat /etc/*release suggested later on the same page.
00:22:23 <shachaf> Actually it seems to me that each distribution has its own standard for what to call that cross-distribution standard file.
00:22:28 <oerjan> which worked (although i tried with echo first because i'm a little paranoid.)
00:22:57 <shachaf> a conspiracy of catographers
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01:32:45 <boily> oerjan: just for you: https://youtu.be/u0tb-osR_XI
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02:06:52 <oerjan> well i understood very little of that.
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02:28:34 <wob_jonas> boily: you're a sanitation expert?
02:29:35 <wob_jonas> oerjan: for what distro you're running, check if you have a /etc/debian_version file, and check for /etc/apt/sources.list , that's often revealing
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02:35:24 <wob_jonas> It can also be worth to test uname -a , in case the machine is running a distribution-compiled kernel, eg. for a debian-compiled kernel the output will mention Debian
02:36:41 <wob_jonas> and even if it's not a distribution-compiled kernel, just knowing if it's a Linux kernel or a FreeBSD one narrows down the search to somewhat fewer distros, even though debian supports both, most distros support only one
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02:40:53 <wob_jonas> oerjan: oh, and one more. look at /etc/motd . it's probably customized more often than /etc/issue , so it might be less indicative, but it's still worth a try.
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03:31:30 * oerjan thinks wob_jonas is missing the point, which is that i am having trouble remembering _one_ way of doing this, so adding _more_ is just making the problem worse.
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03:44:57 <quintopia> any of you happen to know where vyssotsky happened to come up with the term "thread"/"threading"?
03:53:24 <shachaf> oerjan: have you tried putting it in `? oerjan hth
03:53:39 <HackEgo> Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty kind "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty loud hero is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
03:54:01 <shachaf> `swrjan s/render/remember/; s/connivance/convenience/
03:54:18 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty kind "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty loud hero is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
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04:21:39 <oerjan> just a few more edits, and it will entirely understandable and accurate...
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04:22:29 <shachaf> Do you like string diagrams?
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06:15:14 <zzo38> One chess variant is to use the Chinese rule that the kings are not allowed to look at each other.
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16:13:15 <esowiki> [[User:Actuallyallama]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54476&oldid=49143 * Actuallyallama * (+25)
16:14:06 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jammy * New user account
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16:17:43 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54477&oldid=54452 * Jammy * (+223) /* Introductions */
16:18:49 <esowiki> [[User:Jammy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54478 * Jammy * (+142) created userpage
16:26:48 <alercah> Slereah: The rule in xiangqi is that the two kings cannot be on the same file with no pieces in between. There's no similar rule for diagonals or ranks, because it is impossible for the kings to move into a position where they would be on the same diagonal or row
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17:10:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54479&oldid=54473 * Hq9++fan * (+236) /* Arithmetic questions (storage, overflow) */
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17:23:57 <esowiki> [[CHIQRSX9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54480&oldid=53878 * Hq9++fan * (+29) X makes it Turing-complete
17:28:55 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54481&oldid=53801 * Hq9++fan * (+29) Brainfuck not turing complete?!
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17:35:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54482&oldid=43591 * Hq9++fan * (-18) obvious fix
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17:57:47 <esowiki> [[Malbolge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54483&oldid=52490 * Hq9++fan * (-8) spelling fixes
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18:08:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Ook!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54484&oldid=33797 * Hq9++fan * (+111)
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21:46:37 <boily> fungot: you know you want to.
21:46:56 <alercah> boily: when is mahjontreal
21:51:56 <fizzie> fungot: Such a positive message you've got today.
21:51:56 <fungot> fizzie: i don't remember. i think i'm getting confused by the term " ideally"
21:52:31 <shachaf> fungot: are you a coherent space
21:52:31 <fungot> shachaf: that's the fnord fault. core dumped. it's somewhat like a generic function either.
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21:53:42 <boily> hellorcah! montriichi is September 22（土）～ 23（日）
21:53:47 <HackEgo> 15) <bsmntbombdood> there is plenty of room to have two heads \ 1145) <zzo38> Despite the various chess variants (even Chess 2), even ordinary FIDE chess is a fine playable game. But so can others be!
21:55:22 <shachaf> `mkx bin/‴//quote; quote; quote
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22:48:31 <HackEgo> 896) <zzo38> Eat people who are in the "food jail". \ 684) <fizzie> Stupid W|A doesn't even understand "Vatican papal density". (As far as countries go, they've got a quite high one.) \ 222) <Deewiant> !bfjoust sm3 < <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sm3: 43.4
22:50:21 <HackEgo> 1222) <oren> when i was a kid it used to snow on christmas eve. what is this "freezing rain", "sleet" crap? <vanila> yeah seriously, who is evn in charge anymore? <oren> apparently not santa claus <zzo38> Santa Claus is dead by now. \ 1223) <{\[oren]|}> ｚｚｏ３８：ｉｔ ｗｉｌｌ ｃａｕｓｅ ｐｒｏｂｌｅｍｓ ｂｙ
22:50:50 <HackEgo> 1/2:zomgmodules//ZOMGMODULES is both a small blonde veterinarian and just modules over the ring of ZOMGs. \ usual suspect//There are 3.99 usual suspects in #esoteric, but they're usually rounded up. \ it'//It's written with an apostrophe. \ redundancy//Since redundancy exists, it's redundant for Taneb to invent it. \ orin//orin is oren's
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00:31:40 <zzo38> What is your opinion of this? https://arin.ga/tqYxu3
00:33:51 <zzo38> The $Fuse class was not finished being written, but that isn't my fault.
00:33:55 <zzo38> alercah: Free Hero Mesh
00:39:26 <zzo38> There are some strange codes in there such as "1 if" and "0 1 band" which aren't now meaningful, but it is because of it was automatically converted, and the code used some variables (ExplainDeath and AltImage) which do not exist in Free Hero Mesh, so instead they are replaced by default values. (Actually, Free Hero Mesh does have a AltImage setting, although it is not readable by class codes; instead it is used to decide which picture to load whe
00:43:21 <zzo38> (Note that the conversion is from compiled bytecode.)
00:56:11 <zzo38> Do you have any other suggestions about Free Hero Mesh?
01:02:44 <alercah> I'm too unfamiliar with it, sorry :(
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01:56:15 <zzo38> My GURPS character Ziveruskex knows my Dungeons&Dragons character Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe (who is a NPC in the GURPS game) by accidently falling through a secret trapdoor in a public library.
02:06:34 <esowiki> [[Malbolge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54485&oldid=54483 * Oerjan * (+0) No, use en dash for ranges
02:11:40 <esowiki> [[CHIQRSX9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54486&oldid=54480 * Oerjan * (-29) Undo revision 54480 by [[Special:Contributions/Hq9++fan|Hq9++fan]] ([[User talk:Hq9++fan|talk]]) (Stop missing the joke.)
02:17:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54487&oldid=54479 * Oerjan * (+186) If there is, I forgot.
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02:36:43 <zzo38> What are your opinion about this?
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04:45:04 <Sgeo__> Someone advertised to my automated RSS Twitter feed that they would do 15 Rss Submission manually
05:13:30 <esowiki> [[Malbolge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54488&oldid=54485 * Hq9++fan * (+0) No, you must be drunk
05:25:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54489&oldid=54487 * Hq9++fan * (+148) /* Arithmetic questions (storage, overflow) */
05:33:23 <esowiki> [[Malbolge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54490&oldid=54488 * Oerjan * (+0) Nope, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dash, in particular "The en dash but not the em dash indicates spans or differentiation"
05:50:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54491&oldid=54489 * Oerjan * (-1) /* Arithmetic questions (storage, overflow) */ Fix typo
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06:27:06 <zzo38> Another kind of chess variant can be: You must keep track of each pawn if it has double-stepped yet or not; each pawn may double-step up to once per game, but does not necessarily have to be its first move.
06:29:14 <esowiki> [[Talk:Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54492&oldid=54491 * Zzo38 * (+58)
06:49:34 <esowiki> [[Malbolge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54493&oldid=54490 * Hq9++fan * (+0) Nope, you must be drunk
06:50:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54494&oldid=54492 * Hq9++fan * (+139)
06:52:58 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54495&oldid=52043 * Zzo38 * (+55) Mention what "SWYM" is short for
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10:25:57 <esowiki> [[Malbolge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54496&oldid=54493 * Ais523 * (+0) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/Hq9++fan|Hq9++fan]] ([[User talk:Hq9++fan|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Oerjan|Oerjan]]
10:33:12 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54497&oldid=53190 * Ais523 * (+1158) please stop replacing content with Unicode a) in other people's comments, b) if you don't know what it means
10:34:03 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hq9++fan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54498&oldid=54497 * Ais523 * (-9) escape link to deleted image to keep MediaWiki happy
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18:01:59 <\oren\_> “A large double-double with cream,” the mobster said, placing his coffee order. “I want a donut as well, gimme a honey dip.”
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18:21:14 <wob_jonas> fungot, pinch HackEgo to wake him up
18:21:14 <fungot> wob_jonas: did you see that string or a formatter.
18:22:14 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54499&oldid=54498 * Hq9++fan * (+727)
18:24:38 <HackEgo> Lions are the catamorphisms of the animal world. They get eaten by poets in stone dens.
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19:11:12 <imode> is there any de-facto way of implementing a language based on term rewriting? I have an idea that just works on a circular string, but something I read on Thue systems struck me as interesting: that they're term rewriting systems supporting only unary terms.
19:14:38 <imode> I'm interested in porting some odd models of computation to an HDL. string/term rewriting seemed like an easy choice.
19:17:04 <wob_jonas> You could just consider the evaluation steps in SKI calculus as term rewriting
19:18:14 <imode> yeah but I'm looking for something that allows you to specify explicit patterns.
19:19:54 <imode> not just compiling down to S and K.
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19:20:57 <imode> my current idea is you have a circular bit buffer, and you encode your terms (and all other structures) in a dyck language.
19:22:14 <imode> and for each "cycle", you peek a certain number of bits ahead in the buffer, generate variable bindings, etc. and if the pattern succeeds in the match, dequeue the matched bits and requeue the compiled pattern (composed of the variable bindings + other bits surrounding said variables).
19:23:39 <imode> if the pattern doesn't match, simply requeue one bit.
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19:25:49 <imode> I'm not aware of how systems like Maude do their thing, though, so I'm wondering if there's either a simpler way of doing this, if term rewriting is reducible (trivially) to some form of string rewriting, or if this is the best I have.
19:26:24 <imode> I've "guessed" that they do tree matching + unification under the hood.
19:29:12 <imode> that's not really feasible for something like a gate-level description of a term rewriting system, though...
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20:45:58 <izabera> in 2016 deepmind shocked the world by defeating the world champion in go
20:46:27 <HackEgo> Go is a common irregular verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes catching monsters in the strategic territories of East Asia.
20:46:27 <izabera> now they're finally able to paint ugly low res pictures that sorta look like celebrities https://storage.googleapis.com/deepmind-live-cms-alt/documents/celeb_generating_images.gif
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21:27:53 <esowiki> [[Bitter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54500&oldid=54437 * DMC * (+9) /* Description */
21:29:42 <esowiki> [[Bitter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54501&oldid=54500 * DMC * (-7) /* Tedious memory initialization */
21:30:04 <esowiki> [[Bitter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54502&oldid=54501 * DMC * (+15) /* Tedious memory process */
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21:57:44 <HackEgo> olist 1115: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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22:11:49 <fungot> boily: if i copy and paste works fine, except that my voice is fnord awful
22:11:57 <boily> fungot: you have a voice?
22:11:57 <fungot> boily: that was for warm-up) ( f x))) when you have two kinds of fnord
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22:51:35 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54503&oldid=54499 * Ais523 * (+679) elaborate about the Unicode situation
22:51:56 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hq9++fan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54504&oldid=54503 * Ais523 * (+1) typo fix in my own comment
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01:30:39 <HackEgo> 1/1:something//Something is rotten in the state of Denmark. \ inventory//An inventory is a collection of inventions. \ lambdabot//lambdabot is a fully functional bot. just don't ask about @src. or the neighbours. \ sober space//Sober spaces are the dual of Stoned spaces. Taneb invented them. \ iiuc//iiuc i understand iiuc correctly.
01:30:40 <HackEgo> 1/1:something//Something is rotten in the state of Denmark. \ inventory//An inventory is a collection of inventions. \ lambdabot//lambdabot is a fully functional bot. just don't ask about @src. or the neighbours. \ sober space//Sober spaces are the dual of Stoned spaces. Taneb invented them. \ iiuc//iiuc i understand iiuc correctly.
01:31:19 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
01:31:41 <boily> `? tanebventions: maths
01:31:42 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, linear logic, the reals, Lambek's lemma, Curry's paradox, Stone spaces, algebraic geometry, locales, and histograms.
01:31:45 <boily> `? tanebventions: foods
01:31:46 <HackEgo> Culinary tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, weetoflakes, mushrooms, nutella, and cognac.
01:32:39 <HackEgo> The grace period was invented by Taneb to give him more time to invent the Oxford comma.
01:32:53 <HackEgo> special relativity? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:33:02 <shachaf> Taneb: did you also invent general relativity twh
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02:00:16 <oerjan> `` dowg tanebvention | grep relativ
02:00:42 <HackEgo> 9258:2016-10-13 <shachäf> slwd tanebvention//s#the triverse#special relativity#
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02:01:17 <oerjan> `slwd tanebvention//s;special relativity, ;;
02:01:22 <HackEgo> tanebvention//Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
02:01:33 <oerjan> the grace period is over hth
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02:02:29 <HackEgo> the oxford comma? ¯\(°_o)/¯
02:02:37 <HackEgo> oxford//Oxford is the home of English, woven shirts, and the serial comma.
02:03:06 <oerjan> `` dowg tanebvention | grep comma
02:03:16 <HackEgo> 9222:2016-10-10 <shachäf> slwd tanebvention//s#and#the Oxford comma, and#
02:03:54 <HackEgo> 9856:2016-12-05 <oerjän> slwd grace period//s,/,, \ 9855:2016-12-05 <oerjän> le/rn grace period//The grace period was invented by Taneb to give him more time to invent the Oxford comma.
02:04:27 <oerjan> `slwd tanebvention//s;the Oxford comma, ;;
02:04:32 <HackEgo> tanebvention//Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
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02:05:09 <oerjan> `le/rn_append grace period//Somehow, the time still ran out.
02:05:13 <HackEgo> Learned 'grace period': The grace period was invented by Taneb to give him more time to invent the Oxford comma. Somehow, the time still ran out.
02:06:28 <oerjan> `` dowg tanebvention | grep talian
02:06:36 <HackEgo> 11221:2017-10-11 <shachäf> slwd tanebvention//s/sanity, /&Italian, /
02:06:48 <oerjan> i suppose that grace period hasn't run out yet.
02:06:58 <shachaf> Why would I have done that?
02:07:37 <oerjan> i don't remember, was Taneb learning it?
02:08:43 <oerjan> `learn Italian is the world's most operational language. Taneb invented it.
02:08:47 <HackEgo> Learned 'italian': Italian is the world's most operational language. Taneb invented it.
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02:15:33 <oerjan> `slwd italian//s,.$, as a form of scat singing.,
02:15:35 <HackEgo> italian//Italian is the world's most operational language. Taneb invented it as a form of scat singing.
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02:18:48 <shachaf> `slwd tanebventions//s/special/general/
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05:12:43 <oerjan> next up in girl genius: a very destructive kid in a candy store
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11:02:50 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/huh....png <-- what a USEFUL error message
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11:50:34 <lambdabot> You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
11:50:39 <lambdabot> wob_jonas said 3d 14h 8m 50s ago: they are printing a center rules text only Llanowar Elves. https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/promos-dominaria-2018-03-22 says so.
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12:18:52 <esowiki> [[RAM0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54505&oldid=54467 * Ais523 non-admin * (-32) /* Computational class */ the I/D machine has proven computational class, even if 3*P doesn't
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13:02:06 <int-e> "even if 3*P doesn't" <-- can't parse.
13:03:48 <int-e> (3*P is not a mathematical expression, it's an acronym.)
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13:16:39 <izabera> what word was it acronyming?
13:19:55 <int-e> Three Star Programmer
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15:03:56 <wob_jonas> Why does my bank turn my email address all uppercase? Isn't that semantically unsafe, because the username part can be case sensitive? They're risking to send spam to the wrong postbox this way.
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15:14:29 <int-e> Yes... though making local parts case sensitive is discouraged, at least: "While the above definition for Local-part is relatively permissive, for maximum interoperability, a host that expects to receive mail SHOULD avoid defining mailboxes where the Local-part requires (or uses) the Quoted-string form or where the Local-part is case-sensitive."
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15:17:26 <wob_jonas> though I don't know what that's supposed to interoperate with. is that just so it's easier to punch my email address to five-bit telegraph tape?
15:17:51 <wob_jonas> or to use my email address as part of a filename on a case-insensitive file system?
15:19:21 <int-e> banks that randomly store all text IN UPPER CASE.
15:21:20 <wob_jonas> For some data that makes sense. For example, they store my name in all uppercase because that's already how it's printed on most of the government-issued ID cards they see.
15:22:04 <wob_jonas> I don't know why those ID cards do that these days, mind you.
15:22:12 <int-e> wob_jonas: I mean, the bank is doing it wrong, but it will probably almost never break in practice.
15:22:40 <wob_jonas> int-e: sure it won't break, they're only using that email address for spam, who cares if I don't get the spam
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15:24:36 <wob_jonas> For urgent official communications, they need my postal address; other things I can just read when I log into the internet bank interface. Mind you, they also uppercase the postal address, which is also strange, but whatever.
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16:57:36 * Taneb just got caught in a hail shower
16:57:58 <Taneb> I took it as a sign I should work a bit later tonight
17:02:00 <int-e> surf the interwebs
17:06:35 <Taneb> int-e: more or less what I'm doing
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19:52:03 <esowiki> [[NoRAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54506&oldid=54068 * DMC * (+65) /* The Instruction set */
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20:33:41 <esowiki> [[NoRAL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54507&oldid=54506 * DMC * (-1) /* The Instruction set */
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22:53:20 <HackEgo> 1/3:lifespan//Your lifespan is how fat you are in the time dimension. The temporally fattest person in the world has a temporal length of 122 years. Interestingly, the fatter you are in space, the less fat you tend to be in time. \ rea//The Rea is the river flowing through Birmingham. It is jealous of the other rivers having four letters. \ ap
22:53:22 <HackEgo> 2/3:t//APT is a technical term in cyber witchcraft, short for "adequate pernicious toe-rags". \ chess//Chess is a complex boardgame, where players exchange unclear royal steaks until they decide which of them has lost. The game is recorded through the Gringmuth Moving Pineapple Notation. \ possibility//If possibility did not exist, it would no
22:53:24 <HackEgo> 3/3:t be possible for Taneb not to invent it.
22:54:37 <boily> `` grep -EIi '\btoe\b' wisdom/*
22:55:22 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/¯\_(ツ)_: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/8: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/biweekly: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory
22:57:38 <moony> There is apparently an esoteric language based on fetishes. wtf
22:57:48 <boily> screw directories.
22:57:56 <boily> mhelloony! which one?
22:58:07 <moony> it's even on esolangs.org
22:59:38 <moony> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fetlang
23:00:36 <boily> eh, as far as esolangs go, it's not so bad!
23:01:22 <boily> TC, ref implementation and examples on github, not a bfderivative...
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23:36:27 <esowiki> [[CJam-Flavored Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54508&oldid=53158 * Challenger5 * (+0) I can't count
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23:51:12 <fizzie> Taneb: Misread that as a "hair shower", so could be worse.
23:51:38 <fizzie> "A demonic ziggurat. That’s wrong on so many levels."
23:52:55 <HackEgo> ysaclist (73): boily shachaf
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00:10:48 <wob_jonas> fizzie: what's wrong with a hair shower? I shower my hair multiple times a week, and some people shower their own hair every day. I think that's completely normal.
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00:17:05 <oerjan> ok, successfully managed to get an imap inbox
00:17:49 <oerjan> we'll see later if it works when i start tmux from scratch.
00:24:16 <oerjan> i stubbornly tried one last intermediate solution of starting pine on the mail server itself, but it failed because the version was so old it even mangled the Ø in my name.
00:25:07 <oerjan> (proof: my latest agora message.)
00:46:57 <lambdabot> Pseudonym says: All hail the Evil Mangler!
00:53:59 <oerjan> <boily> `` grep -EIi '\btoe\b' wisdom/*
00:54:17 <oerjan> `` grwp -EIi '\btoe\b'
00:54:41 <HackEgo> apt:APT is a technical term in cyber witchcraft, short for "adequate pernicious toe-rags". \ hth:hth ([ʰtʰh̩]) is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous. \ portmanteau:«Portmanteau» is the French spelling of “port man toe”. \ the:the Toe of Harriness's Enclosure \ toe:The TOE is the Toe of Everything, from which our
00:54:55 <oerjan> `2 grwp -EIi '\btoe\b'
00:54:57 <HackEgo> 2/2:our universe sprang. \ twnh:twnh is dubious hambiguitous help that will or will not be help. It is provided by a toe with no hair. \ wth:WTH is wavy toe hair. hth.
00:57:56 <boily> toes everywhere...
00:58:04 <boily> (at least it's not nostrils.)
00:58:19 <oerjan> `learn grwp greps in the wisdom directory, while removing some output noise you get if you try to do it by hand.
00:58:25 <HackEgo> Learned 'grwp': grwp greps in the wisdom directory, while removing some output noise you get if you try to do it by hand.
00:59:08 <HackEgo> grwp greps in the wisdom directory, while removing some output noise you get if you try to do it by hand.
00:59:47 <boily> mine is more authentic :P
01:00:37 <oerjan> well if by authentic you mean "never gets past the directory errors".
01:01:22 <oerjan> and also with redundant wisdom/ prefixes.
01:02:32 <boily> minor details >_>'...
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06:16:59 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54509&oldid=54504 * Hq9++fan * (+246)
06:17:28 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54510&oldid=54509 * Hq9++fan * (+39)
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06:47:21 <esowiki> [[Hq9eFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54511&oldid=46244 * Hq9++fan * (+28)
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06:57:10 <esowiki> [[HQ9+2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54512&oldid=30549 * Hq9++fan * (+39) two-dimensional
06:58:35 <esowiki> [[H9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54513&oldid=54457 * Hq9++fan * (+41)
07:00:24 <esowiki> [[HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54514&oldid=54459 * Hq9++fan * (+77) /* See also */
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07:02:13 <esowiki> [[HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54515&oldid=54514 * Hq9++fan * (+59) /* See also */
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08:40:38 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54516&oldid=53709 * Hq9++fan * (-231) /* Arithmetic interpretation of BCT */ fix mess
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10:32:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Apple3.14]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54517&oldid=16413 * Hq9++fan * (-6)
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12:57:49 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Reinier * New user account
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13:19:13 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54518&oldid=54477 * Reinier * (+173) I introduced myself
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14:01:20 <esowiki> [[ZTOALC L]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54519 * Reinier * (+2825) Created page with "== Control flow == A ZTOALC L program starts with a line containing a positive integer, followed by a number of lines containing instructions. There is an instruction pointer..."
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14:05:43 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54520&oldid=54441 * Reinier * (+15) Added ZTOALC L
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16:12:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Apple3.14]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54521&oldid=54517 * ZM * (+6) Undo revision 54517 by [[Special:Contributions/Hq9++fan|Hq9++fan]] ([[User talk:Hq9++fan|talk]]) Why are you editing <sup>nine-year-old</sup> comments?
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17:20:29 <esowiki> [[CHIQRSX9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54522&oldid=54486 * Hq9++fan * (+13) /* External resources */
17:24:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Apple3.14]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54523&oldid=54521 * Hq9++fan * (-6) because I want to make them ! font designers who made the superscript characters, should be respected.
17:28:17 <esowiki> [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54524&oldid=54084 * Hq9++fan * (+50) /* Cheating Quines */
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17:55:01 <imode> am I dumb or is urbit a pretentious pile of vaporware.
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19:46:38 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54525&oldid=54510 * ZM * (+1632) Just to prove my point here
19:47:43 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hq9++fan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54526&oldid=54525 * ZM * (-12) Whoops
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19:52:38 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hq9++fan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54527&oldid=54526 * ZM * (+228)
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20:18:52 <esowiki> [[NoRAL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54528&oldid=54507 * DMC * (-1) /* Addressing modes */
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21:06:44 <int-e> Heh, SHENZHEN I/O board layout can actually be hard. http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/szlayout.png
21:14:55 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54529&oldid=54481 * DMC * (+157) /* Related languages */
21:17:03 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54530&oldid=54529 * DMC * (+57) /* Related languages */
21:18:57 <esowiki> [[Bitter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54531&oldid=54502 * DMC * (+46)
21:20:03 <esowiki> [[Bitter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54532&oldid=54531 * DMC * (-42)
21:20:37 <esowiki> [[Bitter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54533&oldid=54532 * DMC * (+0)
21:21:11 <esowiki> [[Bitter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54534&oldid=54533 * DMC * (+4)
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22:22:22 <\oren\_> OMG LOOOL look at this britsh guy drinking A&W root beer https://youtu.be/LmT8IMxIpw0?t=11m36s
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22:24:16 <boily> he\\oren\_. I'm drinking one right now.
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23:01:27 <int-e> Oh... good-bye Shenzhen. Didn't expect that :)
23:02:46 <int-e> The maybe I should have... TIS 100 had a similar transition.
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23:03:21 <int-e> <3 "Reuters has found several blockchain projects launched by major financial institutions that have been shelved, as development of the technology enters a hype-meets-reality phase."
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23:23:34 <\oren\_> int-e: Horray, graphics card prices might go back to bieng reasonable
23:25:12 <int-e> This isn't about cryptocurrencies.
23:27:57 <int-e> This is the "oh let's store all the data about our business relationships in a blockchain based ledger so that we don't have to trust each other..." idea (that's basically what a blockchain *can* do, but often you don't really operate on a basis of mutual mistrust; you have contracts and lawyers and accountants instead), which has then somehow been hyped as magically solving all interoperability...
23:28:03 <int-e> ...problems, which was clearly bullshit.
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23:29:38 <int-e> Cryptocurrencies, for better or worse, are one application that actually works. Which is a pity because it's a huge waste of resources and the value attached to the currencies is purely speculative. There is no tangible (or lasting, I think) value.
23:36:16 <boily> it's all a scam. a pyramid, a ziggurat, a tumulus... whatever, it's all a scam.
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23:55:07 <zzo38> I thought how to make a improve kind of dc and wrote down on a paper, what will be the new commands in addition to the GNU and BSD extensions. These include: arithmetic-if, call stack depth, bitwise operations, fractions with arbitrary denominators, byte I/O, and some additional string manipulations.
23:55:48 <int-e> "z Pushes the current stack depth"
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23:57:26 <zzo38> That is for the data stack depth, not the call stack depth.
01:14:00 <esowiki> [[Hq9eFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54535&oldid=54511 * Oerjan * (+2) Put categories at end
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03:07:34 <esowiki> [[Noobinary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54536&oldid=38329 * Raddish0 * (+165)
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04:03:14 <esowiki> [[I/D machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54537&oldid=54382 * Challenger5 * (+5)
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05:36:24 <esowiki> [[Noobinary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54538&oldid=54536 * Rdebath * (-166) Moved to talk.
05:36:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:Noobinary]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54539 * Rdebath * (+579) /* Turing Completeness */ new section
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06:07:56 <zzo38> I don't like what they do with the legendary sorceries in the new Magic: the Gathering set. It should be a new keyword ability instead. (Those cards can still be legendary, though.) This and the "any target" are the two things I don't like; everything else looks good as far as I can tell (but I didn't see everything about it).
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06:44:40 <zzo38> What is your opinion?
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07:08:45 <danil> Hello! May anyone recommend a good language for esolang implementation?
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07:27:20 <zzo38> What do you want to make? If you are trying to implement some esolang, look up the [[Category:Unimplemented]] perhaps.
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07:33:31 <danil> I mean if I want to implement a esolang, what will be the best language to do this. I know this is opinion-based!
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07:34:22 <danil> For example: Haskell, Ruby...
07:34:27 <zzo38> It depends what esolang you are trying to implement.
07:35:46 <danil> Ok. For a Tape-based one, what is my best choice?
07:38:03 <zzo38> I don't know so well Ruby programming, but you could represent a tape as an array in many programming languages, although a tape can also be represented in Haskell easily enough too
07:38:32 <danil> Ok. I just said Ruby as a example, BTW.
07:40:24 <zzo38> Use the programming language you like, I suppose.
07:43:11 <danil> Thank you. Recently I had enormous trouble with global variables in python. Errors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
07:44:51 <danil> Can you change a global variable in a def() command?
07:45:39 <zzo38> Unfortunately I don't know Python programming so well either. (I have modified a few Python programs before, but do not remember much about it.)
07:47:02 <danil> Python was meant to be easy to learn. What is it now? A total mishmash!
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08:01:14 <danil> Yes! I repaired my program!
08:02:40 <zzo38> What program is that?
08:07:13 <danil> A interpreter for my own programming language. The one had global variable errors with.
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08:08:41 <danil> Thanks to O'Reilly!
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08:12:45 <danil> Do we add our languages to [[Category:Languages]]?
08:13:01 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54540&oldid=54527 * Hq9++fan * (+188)
08:13:31 <zzo38> Add [[Category:Languages]] into your page in order to set the category of that page. There are other categories too.
08:15:33 <danil> I mean is [[Category:Languages]] compulsory? Do you have to add your language to the language list?
08:17:22 <esowiki> [[Haddock2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54541&oldid=54147 * Singingbanana * (+23)
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08:19:23 <esowiki> [[Borsch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54542&oldid=54229 * Singingbanana * (+23)
08:20:02 <esowiki> [[Wierd Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54543&oldid=54290 * Singingbanana * (+23)
08:22:34 <esowiki> [[MITLML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54544&oldid=54393 * Singingbanana * (+112)
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09:07:56 <esowiki> [[Talk:Wierd Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54545&oldid=54298 * Singingbanana * (+383)
09:08:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Wierd Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54546&oldid=54545 * Singingbanana * (+1)
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09:25:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Wierd Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54547&oldid=54546 * Singingbanana * (+82)
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09:51:37 <esowiki> [[Mishmash]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54548 * Singingbanana * (+907) Created page with "Mishmash is a Idea developed by [[User:Singingbanana]]. There are three commands: A, X and output, but it also contains 2 variables: one and two. On initialization, one is 1 a..."
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10:23:35 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54549&oldid=54036 * Hq9++fan * (+292)
10:23:51 <zzo38> I wrote how a Sokoban game might be implemented in Free Hero Mesh: https://arin.ga/29e5QH (the Loc and BroadcastSum commands, as well as the ability to define actions of inputs in this way, and the ability for Density to be negative, are all new to Free Hero Mesh)
10:24:40 <zzo38> Do you think is a good way to be able to define a puzzle game like that? Once Free Hero Mesh is written enough to do so, then, it can be done.
10:25:57 <zzo38> One idea might be that I might add a top level (Goal) command into Free Hero Mesh, so that the BEGIN_TURN line can be removed and instead at top level code you can add: (Goal $Box #TEST 0 0 BroadcastSum lnot)
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11:32:09 <esowiki> [[Unary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54550&oldid=54472 * Hq9++fan * (+59) /* Links */
11:35:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Noobinary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54551&oldid=54539 * Ais523 * (+350) it's a PDA
11:36:57 <esowiki> [[Unary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54552&oldid=54550 * Ais523 * (-31) partial rv; that's not how <includeonly> works at all. (But having both categories is probably reasonable; we're inconsistent about whether we do that or not.)
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12:09:32 <zzo38> quintopia: It is a program I am writing, to make up and play a puzzle game on computer.
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12:14:46 <zzo38> Everett Kaser made up a Hero Mesh game, but has several problems including, many bugs, not compatible with Linux, proprietary software, a limit of 512 pictures (and since each class needs at least one picture, also a limit of 512 classes), and others. So, Free Hero Mesh is made to be the better way. I already wrote a program to convert puzzle sets from Hero Mesh into Free Hero Mesh.
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12:16:46 <zzo38> Does this answer your question suitably?
12:20:34 <esowiki> [[Unreadable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54553&oldid=50659 * Hq9++fan * (+41) /* Interpreters */
12:21:37 <esowiki> [[User:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54554&oldid=50675 * Hq9++fan * (+65569)
12:21:50 <esowiki> [[User:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54555&oldid=54554 * Hq9++fan * (-2)
12:22:33 <esowiki> [[User:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54556&oldid=54555 * Hq9++fan * (+196608)
12:24:52 <esowiki> [[User:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54557&oldid=54556 * Hq9++fan * (+262144)
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12:33:01 <esowiki> [[User:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54559&oldid=54558 * Hq9++fan * (+107780)
12:36:45 <esowiki> [[User:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54560&oldid=54559 * Hq9++fan * (+93480)
12:37:31 <esowiki> [[User:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54561&oldid=54560 * Hq9++fan * (-85851)
12:38:26 <esowiki> [[User:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54562&oldid=54561 * Hq9++fan * (+93419)
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12:40:14 <esowiki> [[User:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54564&oldid=54563 * Hq9++fan * (+644)
12:41:34 <esowiki> [[User:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54565&oldid=54564 * Hq9++fan * (+80)
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12:46:54 <esowiki> [[User:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54570&oldid=54569 * Hq9++fan * (+7728)
12:48:58 <esowiki> [[User:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54571&oldid=54570 * Hq9++fan * (+2451)
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12:55:24 <esowiki> [[User:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54576&oldid=54575 * Hq9++fan * (+30)
12:55:49 <esowiki> [[User:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54577&oldid=54576 * Hq9++fan * (+30)
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12:58:55 <esowiki> [[User:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54580&oldid=54579 * Hq9++fan * (+4)
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13:00:20 <esowiki> [[User:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54581&oldid=54580 * Hq9++fan * (+2)
13:01:17 <esowiki> [[User:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54582&oldid=54581 * Hq9++fan * (+1)
13:02:16 <esowiki> [[User:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54583&oldid=54582 * Hq9++fan * (+1)
13:17:46 <esowiki> [[Unreadable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54584&oldid=54553 * ZM * (-13) That's also not how <includeonly> works; unmatched tags are bad and would you ever use this page as a template?
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14:23:42 <esowiki> [[ZTOALC L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54585&oldid=54519 * Reinier * (+87) Added truth-machine example
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15:12:36 <int-e> wtf is up with the reported page size on https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:Hq9%2B%2Bfan&action=history
15:16:17 <int-e> Oh it's real... lots and lots of spaces :-(
15:17:07 <int-e> (smiley because I cannot think of a benign reason for pushing it that far)
15:18:53 <fizzie> Uh. I can't think of a non-benign intentional reason either. I don't know what happened there.
15:19:27 <fizzie> It's a lot of spaces for sure.
15:22:33 <int-e> Well, I guess the most benign reason is "I wonder what the maximum page size is on this wiki".
15:27:03 <fizzie> I'm confused by the changes though. There's a few that just remove spaces.
15:27:56 <fizzie> (Was expecting something to be encoded in it, but it looks to be just 0x20 all the way.)
15:28:14 <int-e> Well at least they compress well...
15:29:04 <int-e> (Which is how I misdiagnosed this in the first place... I expected a 1MB page to take a while to load for me on the low bandwidth connection.)
15:29:11 <fizzie> I'm not sure how that gets stored in the MediaWiki database though.
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15:30:17 <int-e> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Reduce_size_of_the_database#Compress_page_text ... "By default, MediaWiki saves text into the database uncompressed."
15:30:43 <fizzie> Wonder if it also keeps all revisions as-is, or as deltas.
15:31:02 <fizzie> "By default, MediaWiki saves a full copy of every version of every page on the wiki, which can add up on frequently-edited pages."
15:31:05 <fizzie> Guess that answers it.
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15:33:09 <fungot`> int-e: i am aware that, gasp, pairs are scheme objects.)
15:33:52 <int-e> I like that "gasp".
15:34:07 <danil> > "The answer to life, the universe and everything"
15:34:10 <lambdabot> "The answer to life, the universe and everything"
15:34:12 <fizzie> $datadir/esolang_wiki/text.ibd is 696 MiB, apparently.
15:36:14 <fizzie> Oh, by "gone" you meant the whole thing is gone.
15:36:26 <fizzie> I see there's been an alert as well.
15:36:30 <fizzie> Probably it's just being CaC.
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15:37:35 <int-e> fizzie: I meant that HackEgo is not on this channel ... I really didn't check further than that.
15:38:46 <int-e> I have not been on their homepage a while... at least they're having a sale ;-)
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15:39:08 <int-e> (I've never seen that page without a "sale" going on.)
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17:04:35 <fizzie> Yeah; it's not answering SSH, and I don't have access to the console, so we'll just wait and see.
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17:31:41 <int-e> crickets. tumbleweed.
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19:03:52 <esowiki> [[User talk:ZM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54586 * Hq9++fan * (+1046331) rudity
19:05:35 <esowiki> [[Text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54587&oldid=40054 * Hq9++fan * (-15) /* Quine */ golf
19:10:44 <esowiki> [[User talk:ZM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54588&oldid=54586 * ZM * (-1046043) Why don't we all just stop this already
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19:28:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Noobinary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54589&oldid=54551 * Rdebath * (+251) /* Turing Completeness */
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19:44:54 <quintopia> zzo38: do you have a description of it anywhere? where will you publish it?
19:51:11 <esowiki> [[Mishmash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54590&oldid=54548 * Plokmijnuhby * (+178)
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19:59:28 <zzo38> Description of Free Hero Mesh, do you mean? I have a Fossil repository: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/heromesh.ui/ (I am still working on it.)
20:00:26 <zzo38> (If you have any suggestions, comments, complaints, questions, etc, you can ask!)
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04:27:24 <zzo38> I thought of some new idea of Magic: the Gathering cards to make up, such as: Protection from players having at least one card in their hand
04:50:49 <zzo38> I also thought some cards could have "protection from cards"
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10:44:22 <esowiki> [[User:Singingbanana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54591&oldid=54466 * Singingbanana * (+173)
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11:14:36 <esowiki> [[User talk:ZM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54592&oldid=54588 * Hq9++fan * (+296)
11:15:46 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54593&oldid=53383 * Hq9++fan * (+41) /* A rude behavior */ new section
11:18:02 <esowiki> [[Text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54594&oldid=54587 * Hq9++fan * (+31) /* Quine */
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12:04:37 <esowiki> [[User talk:ZM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54595&oldid=54592 * ZM * (+84) template protection
12:11:26 <esowiki> [[User:ZM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54596&oldid=54376 * ZM * (-12)
12:28:09 <esowiki> [[99 bottles of beer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54597&oldid=34815 * Hq9++fan * (-4) remove awful doublespaces
12:28:33 <esowiki> [[99 bottles of beer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54598&oldid=54597 * Hq9++fan * (-1) /* Purpose */ remove unnecessary code
12:34:43 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54599&oldid=46288 * Hq9++fan * (-5920) remove vandalism
12:36:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:APLWSI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54600&oldid=53667 * Hq9++fan * (+120)
12:38:47 <esowiki> [[Minimal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54601&oldid=19981 * Hq9++fan * (+28)
12:47:53 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54602&oldid=54599 * ZM * (+5920) Undo revision 54599 by [[Special:Contributions/Hq9++fan|Hq9++fan]] ([[User talk:Hq9++fan|talk]]) that wasn't vandalism, see [[/~]]
12:56:39 <esowiki> [[Minimal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54603&oldid=54601 * ZM * (+113) Just expansion
12:58:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:APLWSI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54604&oldid=54600 * ZM * (+125)
13:08:20 <esowiki> [[User:Hq9++fan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54605&oldid=54583 * Ais523 * (-1046182) set top revision for revision delete
13:09:13 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:Hq9++fan]]": housekeeping: old-fashioned revision delete of several very large revisions which are making life much harder on the server for no good reason, and contain no useful content
13:10:08 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] restore * Ais523 * restored "[[User:Hq9++fan]]": restore the revisions of this page other than the ones that are intentionally inflated with large amounts of whitespace
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13:11:29 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54606&oldid=54540 * Ais523 * (+1235) /* includeonly */ new section
13:12:24 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54607&oldid=54593 * Ais523 * (-41) Undo revision 54593 by [[Special:Contributions/Hq9++fan|Hq9++fan]] ([[User talk:Hq9++fan|talk]]): please don't transclude user talk pages on other user talk pages
13:14:54 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User talk:ZM]]": housekeeping: old-fashioned revision delete of very large revisions which are making life much harder on the server for no good reason, and contain no useful content
13:17:57 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] restore * Ais523 * restored "[[User talk:ZM]]": restore the revisions of this page other than the ones that are intentionally inflated with large amounts of whitespace
13:20:48 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Ais523 * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/10]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/10/diff/prev/60]])
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13:27:16 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Ais523 * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/11]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/11/diff/prev/61]])
13:28:41 <esowiki> [[User talk:ZM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54608&oldid=54595 * Ais523 * (+703) this page probably shouldn't need protection from transclusion
13:33:39 <esowiki> [[User talk:ZM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54609&oldid=54608 * ZM * (+53)
13:34:21 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54610&oldid=54516 * Ais523 * (+231) Undo revision 54516 by [[Special:Contributions/Hq9++fan|Hq9++fan]] ([[User talk:Hq9++fan|talk]]): Unicode super/subscripts should not be used to spell words
13:40:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Apple3.14]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54611&oldid=54523 * Ais523 * (+6) Undo revision 54523 by [[Special:Contributions/Hq9++fan|Hq9++fan]] ([[User talk:Hq9++fan|talk]]): please don't revert-war
13:43:40 <esowiki> [[H9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54612&oldid=54513 * Ais523 * (-41) Undo revision 54513 by [[Special:Contributions/Hq9++fan|Hq9++fan]] ([[User talk:Hq9++fan|talk]]): listing what is a quine is more useful than listing what isn't a quine
13:44:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54613&oldid=54482 * Ais523 * (+18) Undo revision 54482 by [[Special:Contributions/Hq9++fan|Hq9++fan]] ([[User talk:Hq9++fan|talk]]): please stop making trivial changes to other people's comments without their permission
13:46:19 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54614&oldid=54458 * Ais523 * (+9) Undo revision 54458 by [[Special:Contributions/Hq9++fan|Hq9++fan]] ([[User talk:Hq9++fan|talk]]): the Unicode version is actually more "fake", <sub> is valid HTML and should be used for longer strings as it's more readable/nestable
13:48:20 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54615&oldid=54464 * Ais523 * (-18) Wikipedia links are best done as interwiki rather than external
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13:51:04 <ais523> fizzie: as the only remaining active uninvolved admin, do you think something needs to be done about Hq9++fan?
13:51:11 <ais523> the majority of their edits are actively counterproductive
13:52:26 <ais523> I ended up adding /two/ abuse filter entries today to try to cut down on their worse abuses
13:52:58 <ais523> I'd add one to stop them editing Unicode into pages too (Unicode has its place but Hq9++fan doesn't know what it is…), but couldn't figure out a way to do it which didn't have a massive false positive rate
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14:16:11 <zzo38> Is it possible to add a filter so that non-ASCII characters cannot be entered directly but must use the HTML & codes instead?
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14:18:04 <ais523> zzo38: yes, but that's probably counterproductive
14:18:12 <ais523> as the literal Unicode is normally more readable than the HTML-escaped verison
14:18:55 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54616&oldid=54607 * Hq9++fan * (+1575) 1. what does transclude mean?, 2. you are not allowed to delete warnings from your talk page. If you want to make personal test or sandbox edits, go to [[User:Ais523|your room]].
14:18:57 <esowiki> [[User talk:ZM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54617&oldid=54609 * Hq9++fan * (+126)
14:19:39 <zzo38> Yes, although it does encourage use of ASCII when possible, and avoids homoglyph problems with the wiki markup
14:20:18 <zzo38> But then you can also still use non-ASCII characters when you need to.
14:20:25 <ais523> <Hq9++fan> 2. you are not allowed to delete warnings from your talk page.
14:20:36 <ais523> (for reference: the user in question transcluded a different user's user talk page onto mine)
14:21:30 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54618&oldid=54610 * Hq9++fan * (-231) but at least they're better than fake superscripts and subscripts
14:22:29 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54619&oldid=54616 * Ais523 * (+197) /* A rude behavior */ {{unsigned}}, context
14:22:52 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54620&oldid=54619 * Ais523 * (+122) /* A rude behavior */ sign the context so that people know it was me who added it
14:23:27 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54621&oldid=54614 * Hq9++fan * (-9) it is kind-of fake because small capitals were used as subscripts, but at least the font designer can customize them, unlike the actual fake superscripts and subscripts, which the font designer has no control over.
14:25:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:Apple3.14]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54622&oldid=54611 * Hq9++fan * (-6) no
14:26:52 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54623&oldid=54606 * Ais523 * (+796) /* includeonly */ r to question asked in edit summary on my talk page
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14:29:50 <esowiki> [[User talk:ZM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54624&oldid=54617 * ZM * (+44) heh
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14:32:36 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Ais523 * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/12]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/12/diff/prev/62]])
14:32:47 <ais523> hmm, could someone who isn't currently in a revert war with Hq9++fan revert their latest Unicodification edits (assuming that they agree with me that they're a bad idea)?
14:33:08 <ais523> I've just edited the abuse filter to prevent them using them altogether, which will have some false positives but is at least less drastic than a block
14:33:14 <ais523> (although I'm really tempted to block round about now…)
14:33:19 <zzo38> I do agree with you that they are a bad idea.
14:34:01 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54625&oldid=54618 * Zzo38 * (+231) No they aren't
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14:36:23 * APic somehow likes Unicodification-Edits in general
14:36:31 <APic> No Idea how sensible they are in the current Case
14:36:39 <APic> No Time to look at them — need to play NetHack 😉
14:37:07 <ais523> well, https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=%E2%84%92&diff=prev&oldid=54621 and https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Apple3.14&diff=prev&oldid=54622 are Hq9++fan's two most recent
14:37:24 <ais523> one is an appropriate use of Unicode but is editing someone else's talk page comment
14:38:06 <zzo38> I think that usually you should use ASCII characters. Sometimes there is the use to use non-ASCII Unicode characters, but you should use ASCII if the use of ASCII would be appropriate, which it often is.
14:38:08 <ais523> the other is inappropriate due to trying to use Unicode for formatting purposes
14:38:59 <ais523> I can't even figure out which block that one's from…
14:39:38 <ais523> hmm, HackEgo isn't here
14:40:40 <zzo38> Filter 10 seems there may be a possible problem in some cases.
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14:41:05 * APic seems to like Hq9++fan's Version better. But i am very bad at Mathematics. I do not even know LaTeX. My Brother, who studied Electrotechnics/Informationtechnics probably would agree with Doctor ais523 😉
14:41:27 <ais523> APic: the most obvious problem is what happens if you have a subscript on a subscript
14:41:57 <APic> Thanks for pointing that one out
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14:42:08 <ais523> ooh, it isn't even subscript, it's smallcaps
14:42:23 <ais523> so there's no particular reason why it'd line up with the subscript ₍
14:42:32 <ais523> presumably it just happens to in Hq9++fan's font
14:42:50 <ais523> also, it's intended only for use in IPA (i.e. phonetic spelling)
14:43:29 <APic> Okay, more than enough Reasons to also dislike Hq9++fan's Version. Thanks.
14:43:58 <APic> It would probably help to include those Reasons in the Edit-History
14:44:36 <ais523> zzo38: right, I put two safeguards in because of that: a) if the page is enlarged over multiple edits (e.g. due to people adding hello world programs), the limit is larger; b) if the page needs to be large an admin can do the edit to make it large and then there'll be no size restriction unless it shrinks smaller
14:45:02 <ais523> but people adding megabyte-scale junk to pages is unfair on our server hosts
14:45:18 <ais523> (and makes the history page slow to load)
14:45:30 <ZM> http://qaz.wtf/u/convert.cgi?text=How+well+does+this+work%3Fm > look at Superscript (pseudoalphabet)
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14:46:27 <ais523> <qaz.wtf> What makes an alphabet "psuedo"? One or more of the letters transliterated has a different meaning or source than intended.
14:46:38 <ais523> singingbanana: Hq9++fan is making some very dubious changes to the wiki
14:46:45 <zzo38> Yes, but maybe you should add a check that the latest previous size other than sysops is less than 200000, so that if you remove stuff, you can add it again. (I don't know if it already does that or not, or how to do the MediaWiki abuse filtering anyways)
14:47:03 <ais523> I can't check back in history with abuse filter syntax
14:47:13 <ais523> hopefully that'll be a rare enough case that asking an admin for help will do
14:47:19 <ais523> and if it does end up as a common problem we can disable the filter
14:47:23 <singingbanana> Oh oh... The wiki is meant for esolangs not spam... I think.
14:47:31 <ais523> singingbanana: I agree with tht
14:47:37 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54626&oldid=54625 * Hq9++fan * (-334) they are ! ! !
14:48:28 <ais523> haha, did Hq9++fan seriously just remove the formatting from the page due to the ban I added on using Unicode superscripts/subscripts?
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14:48:58 <ais523> the one esowiki just linked
14:49:52 <ais523> (the ban applies to Hq9++fan specifically; I have no issue with people using them appropriately and have even done so myself, but repeatedly proving that you don't know what you're doing with a feature is often reason to have your right to use it revoked)
14:50:38 <ais523> I guess we have to wait for fizzie to turn up to actually block Hq9++fan, you're not supposed to block users you're in an argument with (which makes sense, it's easy for admins to become biased/non-objective in such cases)
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14:51:30 <singingbanana> I just had a look. What did he dubiously change? BTW. You ask him to stop as a final warning...
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14:51:52 <ais523> singingbanana: replaced all the <sub> and <sup> tags with _ and ^
14:52:11 <ais523> Hq9++fan seems to have a vendetta against <sub> and <sup> for some reason
14:52:18 <ais523> which is a really bizarre thing to have a vendetta against
14:52:52 <ais523> it's a computational model, i.e. was written by mathematicians
14:53:09 <ais523> so the notation uses, e.g., subscripts for array indexing
14:53:31 <ais523> likewise it uses superscript for string repetition (which is standard in maths because string concatenation uses the same syntax as multiplication)
14:54:19 <ais523> and has used the old tactic of "intentionally aggravate all the admins you can find, so that they look biased when they ban you"
14:54:26 <ais523> which is why I'm waiting on fizzie
14:56:25 <ais523> the problem is that the pages get damaged in the process
14:56:52 <ais523> I'd hoped they'd stop when I added the block on the specific pattern edits they were doing
14:57:16 <ais523> at one point they added almost a megabyte of whitespace to their userpage (apparently as testing), then used it to attack other people's talk pages
14:58:31 <singingbanana> Also, I found a nice artice on Lambda the ultimate called Resource Polymorphism.
14:58:50 <ais523> hmm, that sounds interesting
14:59:07 <zzo38> If fizzie bans them then we can revert the pages at that time, instead of right now
14:59:24 <zzo38> Since otherwise it won't help
14:59:45 <zzo38> Do you know their telephone number to call fizzie?
15:00:09 <ais523> this has been going for a few days already
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15:02:03 <singingbanana> there is only one fortress from this problem. fungot
15:02:04 <fungot`> singingbanana: you can play with sisc, dominique said that it remains to be seen
15:02:27 <fungot`> singingbanana: i'd allow for every possible set of features; and a set of fnord pairs, opcode ( 1-6) and argument.
15:02:41 <int-e> what do Hq9++fan even mean by "fake superscripts"... this is proper HTML markup :-/
15:03:41 <ZM> ais523: The reason for that link was that I believe Hq9++fan uses a similar converter; this one calls Superscript a pseudoalphabet because it lacks some characters, so it pulls some from other places, which explains that weird character
15:03:43 <int-e> Oh I guess they mean that the markup is lost in cut&paste.
15:04:21 <ais523> int-e: I think they just really dislike HTML subscripts and superscripts for some reason
15:04:30 <ZM> Also this train has patchy wifi
15:04:36 <ais523> the markup isn't lost in copy, it can be lost on paste with some programs, depending on whether they understand HTML pasting
15:05:08 <int-e> ais523: well it is lost when copying from Firefox to a terminal, for example: (bk + 1)(bk-1 + 1)...(b0 + 1)
15:05:33 <int-e> (But I consider that to be a shortcoming of the former, and a minor nuisance at worst.)
15:05:45 <ais523> at least on Windows it's a shortcoming of the latter
15:08:41 <zzo38> Of course you can copy the HTML code if you want to, as well
15:15:13 <ais523> they've been editing on and off over the last several days
15:15:15 <ais523> (that's why a ban isn't urgent)
15:17:54 <ais523> mediafire isn't exactly a virus site
15:17:58 <ais523> it's a file hosting site
15:18:06 <ais523> that lets arbitrary people host files
15:18:16 <ais523> many people use it to host malicious files, so web filters often block it
15:18:21 <int-e> Oh great. So `links` indicates HTML superscripts using ^ (and subscripts using _), but all the "fance" unicode symbols are displayed as *.
15:18:38 <ais523> it might make sense to ask the uploader to rehost it somewhere more reputable
15:18:49 <ZM> A file named ♦.zip isn't suspicious at all though /s
15:19:04 <singingbanana> I clicked the mediafire button and it exploded into a ton of 'deceptive sites according to firefox.
15:19:19 <ais523> singingbanana: right, there's likely to be a lot of reported malware there
15:19:36 <ais523> so Firefox disallowing connections there by default makes sense
15:19:45 <ais523> and there's a decent chance that the link's expired anyway
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15:20:10 <ais523> perhaps we could ask David.werecat to rehost it somewhere more reputable, like a pastebin site
15:20:31 <singingbanana> Thank you for reassuring me that my computer is not a swarm of trojans
15:21:50 <ais523> well, Firefox won't connect to sites reported to host malware in the first place, so you're probably OK in that respect
15:22:03 <ais523> however, it wouldn't surprise me if infected adverts ended up on that sort of site frequently
15:22:13 <ais523> they often have a large number of adverts mimicking download buttons
15:22:41 <singingbanana> Yes. I did not click it though, as there was no padlock!
15:23:07 <zzo38> Direct download link, which is compatible with curl, is best
15:23:23 <ais523> sites like mediafire have huge problems making money
15:23:32 <ais523> so they tend to have a very user-hostile user experience
15:23:45 <int-e> singingbanana: I did what?
15:23:50 <ais523> (e.g. making you wait several minutes before the download starts, allowing you to pay them money to make it go faster)
15:24:08 <ais523> also, isn't the cat program in sed the null string?
15:24:30 <wob_jonas> ais523: but he also has a vendetta against double spacing after sentences, and I think fizzie likes single spacing, so he won't block him
15:24:58 <int-e> singingbanana: I had a typo in the message before that.
15:25:02 <zzo38> wob_jonas: I don't really see how that will be relevant?
15:25:44 <ais523> wob_jonas: it makes absolutely no difference to the rendered output
15:26:03 <ais523> so it's not worth changing either way
15:26:38 <ais523> some programs I use have markup for distinguishing an end-of-sentence full stop from other users of the period character
15:26:52 <ais523> and two-spaces is a common choice of markup for that (although not the only one)
15:28:17 <ais523> if I ever get round to writing my HTML/plaintext polyglot language
15:28:38 <wob_jonas> I'm not *yet* in an edit war with Hq9++fan, but I could change that
15:28:42 <ais523> I will probably insist on two spaces at the end of sentences because it's the least stupid-looking way to make a sentence period different from an abbreviation period
15:29:32 <singingbanana> I'm thinking there's going to be loads of joke languages uploaded tommorow
15:29:37 <zzo38> int-e: Lynx also displays HTML superscripts with ^ (and uses a different colour than the main text); this page http://zzo38computer.org/gurpsgame/1.ui/wiki?name=Session+11 is one example; footnotes are designated as ^1 and ^2 and so on, in yellow
15:30:06 <ais523> singingbanana: more likely serious languages disguised as jokes
15:30:09 <ais523> I don't have one planned, btw
15:30:15 <ais523> although I /was/ working on a new esolang recently…
15:30:19 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54627&oldid=54626 * Int-e * (+334) Revert to revision 53709. This is the semantically correct way of indicating superscripts and subscripts in HTML. (And you can even get the TeX-alike output in the links browser.)
15:31:23 <ZM> singingbanana: Oh I have an idea already
15:31:28 <singingbanana> I think there is no more real joke languages left to make. So I'm going to publish a language i was developing for months
15:32:56 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54628&oldid=54621 * B jonas * (+9)
15:32:59 <zzo38> (And if you want to complain about typographical errors or anything else in that story, you are free to do so)
15:33:04 <wob_jonas> Ok, let me start that edit war then
15:33:41 <ZM> SuperScript!
15:33:52 <wob_jonas> singingbanana: I don't think that's true. There are still joke languages left to make.
15:37:01 <int-e> . o O ( Welcome to another episode of https://xkcd.com/386/ )
15:39:34 <ZM> This all feels like https://xkcd.com/1974/ as well
15:40:06 <esowiki> [[Unary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54629&oldid=54552 * B jonas * (-39)
15:40:18 <esowiki> [[Unary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54630&oldid=54629 * B jonas * (-5)
15:40:32 <int-e> It's kinf of funny how strongly I feel about not calling <sub> and <sup> "fake".
15:40:57 <fungot`> int-e: fixed already. i want to
15:41:54 <singingbanana> fungot: hello! How is your day! Better than mine, ofcourse!
15:41:54 <fungot`> singingbanana: and is more concerned about efficiency than correctness
15:42:04 <ais523> int-e: the ridiculous thing is that the version that was edited /in/ was fake subscript, on one of the pages (literally; it was smallcaps, not subscript)
15:42:17 <ais523> and when I looked closely it actually didn't line up with the subscript next to it
15:43:10 <zzo38> I like what I see of the new "Dominaria" Magic: the Gathering cards except that I hate their use of the phrase "any target" and how they are making legendary sorceries working (and a few things I am neutral about, such as the new legendary card frame). So, I will not use the phrase "any target" on my own custom cards, whether to mean what I want it to mean or what WotC wants it to mean.
15:44:11 <ais523> zzo38: I take it you'd want "any target" to also include at least permanents of any card type?
15:44:11 <wob_jonas> ais523: you know how there are some programmers who use some of these non-ascii symbols when they quote a program from an ordinary ascii programming language (like C or haskell) in an article? like a right arrow instead of -> and similar? and how even Knuth does that?
15:44:17 <ais523> what about other things that can be targeted?
15:44:29 <ais523> although it may be defensible in the case of Haskell and Algol
15:44:39 <zzo38> ais523: I would want "any target" to mean "target player, object, or zone".
15:44:53 <wob_jonas> ais523: when haskellers do that, they represent the ++ infix by two pluses kerned so close together that they overlap. does that have a unicode representation, and if so, can we rename Hq9++fan's username to include that?
15:45:01 <ais523> zzo38: zones generally? or only zones that belong to a player?
15:45:06 <ais523> I can't see much benefit to targeting exile
15:46:00 <ais523> wob_jonas: probably ⧺?
15:46:15 <ais523> "double plus" in Miscellaneous Mathematical Symbols B
15:46:16 <zzo38> Any zone (not that there is usually much point targeting it, but it can be targeted; the rules of the game don't say they can't be targeted, it is just that there aren't any cards that target the exile zone)
15:46:26 <ais523> but the proportions are different
15:46:36 <wob_jonas> zzo38: how about if you imagine that in "any target" the "target" is a pun between the M:tG technical term and the ordinary meaning of something that's dealt damage. there are already cards where you have to choose any damage source, for preventing or rederecting damage from that source. this time you have to choose any damage target as a target.
15:47:07 <zzo38> wob_jonas: That is one possibility, although I would have preferred "target damageable" or something like that
15:47:16 <ais523> wob_jonas: I cheated and used Shapecatcher
15:47:52 <wob_jonas> zzo38: do you really want that written on a Lightning Bolt?
15:48:54 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Yes, although there may be another suggestion too; just "any target" doesn't make sense
15:50:40 <ais523> writing on a lightning bolt would be quite hard
15:50:43 <ais523> plasma doesn't hold ink well
15:50:50 <ais523> although it's an interesting concept to imagine
15:50:55 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I don't see the problem. we already have restr'ns in the comp rules telling what you can target: in particular a Counterspell can't target itself. I don't see a problem with the comp rules restricting what cards saying "any target" can target.
15:51:03 <ais523> singingbanana: shapecatcher's a website that OCRs unicode (apart from CJK)
15:51:15 <esowiki> [[User:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54631&oldid=54605 * B jonas * (+1) replaced fake operator with proper counterpart
15:51:18 <ais523> although you often have to scroll well down the list in order to find the character you're looking for
15:51:37 <zzo38> wob_jonas: The rules work; I didn't say they don't work. I said it doesn't make as much sense as using different phrasing
15:51:47 <ais523> wob_jonas: OK, that edit is probably excessively vindictive
15:51:56 <zzo38> I would also have prefer that if you can cast a card only if you control a legendary creature or planeswalker, to be a keyword ability. (That card can still be legendary as well though)
15:52:09 <ais523> I'm going to revert it
15:52:22 <wob_jonas> ais523: ok. you're an admin, you have to be responsible
15:52:25 <ais523> unless you give me a good reason not to
15:52:47 <esowiki> [[User:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54632&oldid=54631 * B jonas * (-1)
15:53:11 <ais523> I did but your edit went through first
15:53:19 <ais523> and no-op edits don't leave a history or recent changes entry
15:53:27 <singingbanana> When will the Essies/ Esolang comptetion come back?
15:53:34 <wob_jonas> ais523: I've had enough after the transclusion thing https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ais523&diff=54593&oldid=53383
15:54:41 <ais523> singingbanana: it was hard enough to get entries / judges the first time
15:55:06 <ais523> and then when CALESYTA disappeared without trace mid-contest, it didn't bode well for the future of esolang competitions
15:55:18 <ais523> if someone does want to run one I'd be willing to judge (and/or participate if the deadline is long enough)
15:55:30 <ais523> but I wouldn't be confident in the competition actually succeeding
15:55:43 <ais523> at least some of the CALESYTA esolangs got posted to the wiki
15:55:47 <ais523> so some good came of it
15:55:52 <wob_jonas> singingbanana: if you want to make an esolang, you can just make one without a contest, or make one and make a presentation of it for SigBovik (there was one about Wikiplia)
15:56:09 <ZM> Some contests on StackExchange did succeed though
15:56:36 <ais523> ZM: I hate Stack Exchange so much (the platform)
15:56:41 <ais523> PPCG has a great community
15:56:49 <ais523> but actually using the software that powers it leaves me so depressed
15:56:59 <ZM> Yeah I meant PPCG
15:57:16 <ais523> the voting is completely broken, for example
15:57:19 <zzo38> Another thing about "any target" is that it is different than the normal specification of "target [specification of what it targets]". If for some reason I did want to make an abbreviation for "target player, object, or zone", I would probably write "target anything".
15:57:22 <ais523> and it's demoralising to see good entries end up behind bad ones
15:57:44 <singingbanana> Is it a better Idea to change CALESYTA's tense from is to was?
15:59:01 <singingbanana> Oh,it wasnt officialy discharged. My mistake, sorry
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15:59:39 <ais523> it just dropped off the internet
15:59:44 <ais523> some time after the submissions were made
16:01:49 <esowiki> [[Malbolge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54633&oldid=54496 * B jonas * (+8) and your father smelt of elderberries
16:02:17 <wob_jonas> int-e: http://unicode.scarfboy.com/?s=%E2%A7%BA
16:02:28 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54634&oldid=54627 * Hq9++fan * (-334) but it's unethical
16:03:00 <int-e> okay, can we ban that person already, please
16:03:21 <int-e> this is beyond silly... that particular edit has now gone through three reverts.
16:03:22 <ais523> I can't see a plausible argument for claiming that ^ is a more ethical way of indicating superscripts than <sup>
16:03:34 <ais523> the "font designers" argument is ridiculous but at least has some internal logic to it
16:03:50 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54635&oldid=54634 * B jonas * (+334)
16:03:56 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54636&oldid=54628 * Hq9++fan * (-27) Undo revision 54628 by [[Special:Contributions/B jonas|B jonas]] ([[User talk:B jonas|talk]])
16:03:57 <singingbanana> WE NEED A ESSAY ABOUT SUPERSCRIPTS VS. ^ AND A VOTE
16:04:18 <zzo38> ais523: Well, use of ^ will work with copying ASCII text, but Lynx will automatically do that when a <sup> command is encountered, so you do not need to do it by yourself
16:04:33 <ais523> I can see arguments for "better" in various senses
16:04:38 <int-e> . o O ( I want to revert with message "grow up" )
16:04:49 <int-e> . o O ( But that would be childish... )
16:04:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:Apple3.14]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54637&oldid=54622 * B jonas * (+6)
16:05:04 <ais523> if he gets reverted by four different people in 24 hours
16:05:10 <ais523> and reverts back each time
16:05:10 <esowiki> [[Unary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54638&oldid=54630 * Hq9++fan * (+29) allow people to see all turing complete languages with a wiki page, in one category. subsetting is better than splitting in this case
16:05:16 <ais523> that hits a hard limit for legal reverting
16:06:08 <esowiki> [[User:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54639&oldid=54632 * Hq9++fan * (+4) link to [[HQ9++]]; and don't edit my page, it's mine!
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16:06:35 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54640&oldid=54635 * Hq9++fan * (-334) fix bot edit
16:07:20 <ais523> that's four reverts (or effective reverts) in 24 hours on the same page, isn't it?
16:07:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:Apple3.14]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54641&oldid=54637 * Hq9++fan * (-11) Undo revision 54637 by [[Special:Contributions/B jonas|B jonas]] ([[User talk:B jonas|talk]])
16:07:29 <ais523> of different users, no less
16:07:38 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54642&oldid=54640 * B jonas * (+334)
16:08:14 <wob_jonas> singingbanana: IIRC they were already hit
16:08:21 <esowiki> [[Malbolge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54643&oldid=54633 * Hq9++fan * (-10) fix
16:08:34 <wob_jonas> singingbanana: also it's not *your* pages. it's a wiki. the pages are owned collectively by everyone
16:08:36 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:Hq9++fan]] with an expiration time of 1 day and 7 hours (account creation disabled): more than 3 reverts on the same page ([[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]]), of different users, in 24 hours; please don't edit war with people
16:08:58 <ais523> oh, I should probably have turned the autoblocker on too
16:09:21 <ais523> just the edit summary doesn't say that
16:09:24 <wob_jonas> ais523: this was with underscores and carets
16:09:34 <ais523> wob_jonas: effective reverts still count as reverts
16:09:45 <ais523> it doesn't have to be an 100% exact revert (people game the system like that far too often)
16:09:55 <wob_jonas> ais523: oh, I thought the autoblocker was for non-ascii stuff
16:10:02 <ais523> wob_jonas: oh, I mean autoblocker as in
16:10:11 <esowiki> [[Malbolge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54644&oldid=54643 * Zzo38 * (+10) Fix capitalization, punctuation, superscripts, and ASCII
16:10:14 <ais523> if Hq9++fan tries to create or use a new account, ,that gets banned too
16:10:37 <int-e> Is 1 day and 7 hours a good time frame?
16:10:53 <ais523> singingbanana: you can't protect against everything
16:11:03 <ais523> int-e: it's one of the standard block lengths
16:11:15 <ais523> and revert-warring bans are never indefinite without more discussion between admins
16:11:42 <int-e> I'm just wondering whether any admin will be around when it expires...
16:11:59 <ais523> "ℒ (it is kind-of fake because small capitals were used as subscripts, but at least the font designer can customize them, unlike the actual fake superscripts and subscripts, which the font designer has no control over.)"
16:12:11 <ais523> int-e: we can change the length of an existing block
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16:12:26 <ais523> I just noticed that Hq9++fan knew they weren't even subscript characters and used them anyway!
16:12:33 <ais523> that's got to be outright trolling at this point
16:12:42 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54645&oldid=54636 * B jonas * (+27)
16:12:46 <ais523> because a font designer wouldn't design them to look good among subscript characters as it's a different character set
16:13:02 <zzo38> Not only did they change a shorter dash to a improper longer one, but also messed up the capitalizaion
16:13:07 <wob_jonas> ais523: sadly I don't think it's trolling
16:13:48 <int-e> Unicode had no business adding superscript and subscript characters... though I guess the harm was already done with ISO 8859-1, and probably even earlier.
16:14:23 <ais523> I looked it up (because it's important to be informed in this sort of argument)
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16:14:30 <ais523> the intention was to make it possible to write mathematical formulas
16:15:02 <wob_jonas> int-e: sure it has. even real typewriters has superscript 2, mostly because of classified ads for apartments with area 40 m**2. we have to encode those somehow.
16:15:05 <zzo38> Unicode doesn't need superscripts/subscripts, although some character sets do need a few
16:15:35 <wob_jonas> but that doesn't mean you have to try to encode all superscripts in formulas with tem.
16:15:37 <ais523> wob_jonas: the typewriters I'm used to, you superscripted a 2 by scrolling the page and writing the 2 on a different place
16:15:45 <ais523> although maybe some newer ones have a physical ² key
16:15:56 <wob_jonas> ais523: it depends on which typewriter. I'm quite sure some do have a true superscript 2.
16:16:19 <int-e> wob_jonas: Well my problem is that Unicode has a strange way of avoiding most, but not all, markup. I don't know what the general rule they're following is, if there is one.
16:16:20 <wob_jonas> ais523: also some had these 1/2 and 1/4 fractions
16:16:29 <ais523> yes, that was more common
16:17:07 <wob_jonas> they even put those in five-bit telex codes with space for only 60 characters or so
16:17:08 <zzo38> PC character set has a superscript 2, as well as some fractions, but that is for the screen layout; for printing you should use the proper typesetting commands to form superscript instead of using special superscript characters.
16:17:17 <wob_jonas> had some use in finance or something
16:17:29 <ais523> wob_jonas: I think Baudot might have a ½?
16:17:46 <int-e> But mostly I don't mind because I can avoid using the parts of Unicode that I dislike, most of the time. And sub- and superscripts are harmless compared to the colorful pictorgrams they've added in the past couple of years.
16:17:52 <wob_jonas> ais523: baudot had like fifty variants depending on the nation and organization. and yes, some of them had
16:17:58 <ais523> at least not in the US-TTY or C-INTERCAL version
16:18:08 <int-e> I really can't spell today.
16:18:12 <ais523> but it's believable that some other version has it
16:19:42 <zzo38> I looked, and UK Baudot has a "1/" character.
16:20:06 <zzo38> (The modern international version doesn't)
16:21:09 <wob_jonas> lol https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Apple3.14&diff=54641&oldid=54637
16:21:44 <ais523> can we put the comment back how it was?
16:21:50 <ais523> although that is pretty funny
16:22:02 <ais523> we should respect the author's phrasing for things like talk page comments
16:22:13 <ais523> unless there's a really good reason to change it (e.g. broken file link)
16:23:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Apple3.14]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54646&oldid=54641 * B jonas * (+11)
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16:23:44 <esowiki> [[ZTOALC L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54647&oldid=54585 * Plokmijnuhby * (+293)
16:24:32 <ais523> that's an interesting computational class hypothesis
16:24:38 <ais523> I'm not sure it's wrong, but it'd surprise me if it were right
16:25:13 <esowiki> [[ZTOALC L]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54648&oldid=54647 * Plokmijnuhby * (-294)
16:25:21 <wob_jonas> ais523: you're right, the 1/2 and 1/4 and 3/4 are more frequent than the superscript 2
16:25:44 <wob_jonas> I'm now looking through photos of typewriters to find one with a superscript 2
16:25:50 <zzo38> On typewriters I have seen, I see the fractions more commonly than the superscript 2, also
16:25:56 <ais523> many typewriters didn't have a 0 or 1 key
16:26:04 <ais523> because O and I were considered sufficiently similar
16:26:29 <wob_jonas> I think this one has superscript 2 and 3 => https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Oliveti_MicroPlus.jpg
16:27:02 <wob_jonas> but sometimes people used o and l instead, when the rest of digits were old style jumpy
16:27:31 <ais523> wob_jonas: lowercase digits
16:27:32 <wob_jonas> this one has fractions by the way => https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mesin_Taip.jpg
16:30:04 <int-e> ais523: maybe it was an attempt at inviting a TC proof :P
16:30:26 <ais523> there are a few languages which are obviously primitive recursive
16:30:38 <ais523> but it's a surprising computational class to see in cases when it's not obvious
16:31:01 * ais523 vaguely wonders how powerful a total language it's possible to make, you can do better than primitive recursive
16:31:25 <int-e> This one looks very much Turing-complete, though working out arbitrary enough control flow will probably be messy.
16:31:29 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, it's rare. I suspect that one variant of Amycus with some rules removed might be exactly as powerful, but it probably actually isn't.
16:31:30 <ais523> actually, I guess you'd get pretty close using a primitive-recursive-like language that supported ordinals
16:31:56 <ais523> …come to think of it, that's pretty close to an old language idea of mine
16:32:10 <ais523> it was called ACK, and had the Ackermann function as its only arithmetic operation
16:32:16 <ais523> also all the commands were control codes
16:32:48 <ais523> but it had a hierarchy of types of variable, you could destroy one to make arbitrarily many variables of a lesser type
16:33:00 <wob_jonas> (0) restricted to any suitable ordinal is still total
16:33:31 <wob_jonas> and if you restrict it to omega, then it describes exactly the primitive recursive functions
16:33:44 <wob_jonas> so it's a possible generalization of primitive recursive programs to a larger total class
16:36:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: is that like a meta-djinn?
16:36:22 <zzo38> Can you make a modern computerized typerwriter with a RS-232 port and telephone line, and you can remove the typefaces to put difference ones if you wish; the included one can be Courier with ASCII (I have read that the post office will scan it better if you use Courier with all uppercase)
16:36:24 <ais523> not sure, I forget what a meta-djinn is
16:36:44 <ais523> hmm, can (0) calculate the TREE function?
16:38:24 <wob_jonas> ais523: a djinn gives you a wish (or three wishes, depending on the variant of the legend, but that's irrelevant). you can wish for almost anything, but you can't wish for more wishes, or for anything related to wishing or wish-granting djinns or wish-granting rings or similar. a meta-djinn gives you a meta-wish. you can meta-wish for wishes, but y
16:38:24 <wob_jonas> ou can't meta-wish for meta-wishes. there's a whole hierarchy of meta**kappa wishes for any ordinal kappa.
16:38:41 <wob_jonas> the concept was invented by Hofstadter in his book
16:38:53 <ais523> so yes, basically just "given an ordinal, produce a smaller ordinal"
16:39:41 <ais523> wob_jonas: it's a function that grows really really fast
16:39:51 <wob_jonas> zzo38: stuff about the post office depends on the country and the age
16:39:57 <ais523> basically, the idea is that you have an inclusion among trees for whether one is included within another
16:40:18 <ais523> I forget what operation it is exactly that you use for inclusions but it's something like shrinking an edge
16:40:25 <ais523> also, each vertex of the tree is colored
16:40:48 <ais523> the aim is to find the longest sequence of trees you can, using a given number of colors
16:40:54 <wob_jonas> which leads to stupid order forms trying to apply the US post's conventions to all international mail
16:41:01 <ais523> such that no tree in the sequence is included within an earlier tree
16:41:25 <ais523> also there's a limit on how many vertices you can start with
16:42:04 <ais523> ooh, the rule is that the nth element of the sequence can't have more than n vertices
16:42:08 <wob_jonas> if there's a limit for the number of vertices and the number of colors, then isn't that all primitive recursive and you need only a few levels of exponentiality?
16:42:47 <ais523> anyway, it turns out that you can't make an infinite sequence this way
16:43:01 <ais523> but with a given number of colors, the sequence can be really really long even if the number is quite small
16:43:40 <ais523> even TREE(3) is so large that it's hard to explain just how large it is (Graham's number is pretty much incomparably smaller)
16:46:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: do you have a link with a precise definition?
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16:47:18 <ais523> wob_jonas: there's one on Wikia but I don't like linking to it
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16:47:44 <wob_jonas> fungot, do you speak Hittite fluently?
16:47:45 <fungot`> wob_jonas: or " god saw the light of jesus, do you like? atlanta, of course, alice is lazy, by the way)
16:47:51 <ais523> oh, here we go, there's one on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruskal%27s_tree_theorem
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16:56:18 <ZM> ^ul (:aSS):aSS
16:58:03 <ZM> fungot, ins?
16:58:03 <fungot`> ZM: itunes/ 4.8 ( macintosh; n; ppc) and at work one day and check how much data are we talking about
16:58:13 <ZM> fungot, insn?
16:58:14 <ais523> ZM: it's an abbreviation for "instruction"
16:58:31 <lambdabot> monochrom says: Welcome to #haskell, where your questions are answered in contrapuntal fugues.
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17:08:41 <wob_jonas> wait, really? I've asked questions on #haskell and never noticed that form of an answer
17:09:21 <ais523> it probably only happened once
17:09:30 <ais523> which would be enough to create the quote
17:11:09 <shachaf> It's a joke on the old overused #haskell quote, "where your questions are answered in majestic stereo"
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17:12:48 <wob_jonas> ais523: in English, "prose" means a text that's not in verse form, "prosody" means studying verse form. the two worse are etymologically unrelated, they just got smashed up because English distorts words unrecognizably.
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17:17:24 <singingbanana> A -> input; B > A + 1, C -> Output. What does this output?
17:18:14 <ais523> and are you sure that the punctuation and case is correct?
17:18:22 <ais523> it reminds me a bit of Prolog but it isn't
17:20:05 <singingbanana> This system must output a value. A = input, so It cant directly be equal to output. So B is output. This is the axiom of my April Fools language
17:21:56 <singingbanana> Aha!! Axiom 2) Everything is a variable. What is C? This is a deduction-based system/presumption-based system. (TM of Singingbanana industries)
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17:32:47 <wob_jonas> sometimes I wonder about the sci-fi premise where there's a magical replicator machine with two chambers, and on the push of a button it replaces the contents of one chamber with another, but it's balanced, there's an equal probability of copying one way or another, independent of prior events.
17:33:17 <wob_jonas> if it wasn't balanced, then you could use such a machine for a lot of useful purposes
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17:33:48 <wob_jonas> getting rid of all material waste objects you don't need, copying useful material objects, getting unlimited energy and all that
17:34:06 <wob_jonas> but if it's balanced, it's much harder to find good uses for it
17:34:57 <zzo38> Yes, but there can be a few, possibly
17:36:19 <wob_jonas> and I assume in this sci-fi setting it is a physical conservation law that it must be balanced, so if you get the plans of the machine and understand them, you can still only build new replicators that are balanced
17:36:27 <wob_jonas> it's not just a cruel joke by the inventor
17:37:34 <zzo38> Possibly in the alternate universe it goes in the other direction, and there is no way to predict it, nor to determine the point of correspondence, which may change.
17:38:23 <esowiki> [[Turing number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54649&oldid=54475 * Singingbanana * (-47)
17:38:30 <zzo38> (Maybe you want to ensure both dice, if biased at all, are biased in the same way.)
17:41:55 <ais523> wob_jonas: it'd be good if you had a set of distinct objects and wanted two identical, but didn't care which
17:42:08 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, that is the example I gave with the dice
17:42:16 <ais523> for example, things like replicating password keys
17:42:22 <ais523> they're worthless unless you share them with someone else
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17:43:01 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, or making a set of standard weights, or identical screws and bolts. but even that you can only do if you determine the number of objects you need in advance and create that many. you can fix the standard later once you distribute the weights.
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17:44:08 <zzo38> You could have a further restriction where both sides must initially have equal mass or the machine will explode. That would be another variant of the story.
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18:15:04 <zzo38> What are your opinion of some of the new ideas I made up for new Magic: the Gathering cards? Such as: Protection from players having at least one card in their hand. And, the other one: Protection from cards.
18:16:24 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I think protection from any subset of players currently has no effect (except possibly in silver-bordered land) so it's a useless ability
18:16:40 <wob_jonas> players can't attack or be attached, and they can't have abilities with targets.
18:16:58 <zzo38> But protection from players extends to protection from stuff they control, isn't it?
18:19:24 <wob_jonas> what card has such an ability printed?
18:19:45 <zzo38> I don't think it is new, and I don't know what card has such an ability printed
18:20:01 <fizzie> Yeah, I'm not sure why I abbreviated it as "insn" (there's enough whitespace around for a longer string) but "instruction" is what it's short for.
18:21:10 <wob_jonas> in a commander set. no wonder I didn't recognize that
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18:30:44 <wob_jonas> did Taneb invent electric toothbrushes? camel-hair brushes?
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18:31:28 <boily> wellob_jonas. camel hair???
18:32:41 <wob_jonas> boily: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel-hair_brush
18:33:04 <wob_jonas> "A camel-hair brush is a type of paintbrush with soft bristles made from natural hairs, usually squirrel."
18:33:29 <boily> oops. I thought it was camel hair toothbrushes...
18:33:47 <wob_jonas> no. toothbrushes are made of plastic.
18:34:01 <zzo38> A creature card could be made that has protection from cards, and also an ability that opponent creates tokens, like Hunted Horror has.
18:34:52 <zzo38> (That way, it can be blocked.)
19:10:36 <zzo38> Well, did you invent disco?
19:12:08 <wob_jonas> Did Taneb invent that pole firemen slide down in the station? Did Taneb invent that statement about the asymptotic maximal density of graphs excluding a certain non-bipartite graph as a subgraph?
19:12:50 <wob_jonas> Did Taneb invent video console controllers with two analog sticks? Did Taneb invent waffles?
19:14:17 <zzo38> If Taneb invented a lot of stuff then I think it is going to be long if you are going to list everything. However, it does sometimes different people invent the same thing independently, especially in mathematics it seem to me.
19:15:22 <wob_jonas> Did Taneb invent the "B" exposure mode on cameras, where the curtain is open for as long as you hold down the button? Did Taneb invent that mechanism in IKEA shells that slows them down when you close them, but doesn't slow them down at all when you open them?
19:20:02 <wob_jonas> Did Taneb invent that code in DOS where if you only have one floppy drive, it emulates two logical floppy drives by asking the user to put in the other disk whenever a program accesses the other drive? Did Taneb invent those stupid fenced areas in parks supposedly for dogs that are too small and muddy for a dog to do anything in it?
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19:24:36 <zzo38> I have written now how I defined the working of the string pool in RogueVM? If you have some complaints then I can adjust it.
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19:45:13 <wob_jonas> Wait what? One of the sigbovik articles claim that "Computers can vastly exceed human performance in a large and growing number of tasks, ranging from navigation to protein folding." Is that true? I thought human cells folded proteins faster than computers can, at least if you allow parallelism.
19:45:54 <zzo38> If it contains an error then write to them about it.
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19:53:02 <int-e> I think wob_jonas is hinting at the fact that most computers cannot fold any proteins at all.
19:54:02 <wob_jonas> They can fold proteins, but are very slow in that.
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19:56:05 <int-e> Okay, I was wrong then. In which case I would like to point out that those aren't actual proteins.
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20:43:03 <int-e> . o ( in which store... ah never mind )
20:44:54 <moony> brainfuck has been featured on esolangs.org for a little too long lol
20:54:19 <wob_jonas> moony: we've talked about that a few weeks ago in chat.
20:55:52 <wob_jonas> it's hard to feature a language on the wiki. lots of work and conflicts of interest.
20:57:03 <quintopia> how hard is it to just remove that featured language box entirely?
20:57:35 <wob_jonas> quintopia: that would make the homepage look unbalanced
21:00:29 <zzo38> Is there something else that could be put there?
21:01:50 <wob_jonas> we could feature the latest eso-programming competition, like Calesyta, IOCCC, or the Underhanded C contest. sadly those are very rare. Or we could feature golf problems or something. I dunno.
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21:06:30 <zzo38> Perhaps just label it as "Nothing here currently" if there is nothing here currently, and add the competiions and whatever else may be when there is one.
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22:36:27 <boily> fungot`: why so grave?
22:36:40 <fungot`> boily: but you could double name them.
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22:41:33 <int-e> ^8ball To be or not to be?
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