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00:26:38 <b_jonas> arseniif_: no, I don't think I ever really talked about them. it's mostly the newer syntax additions, which I think are painfully inconsistent with the existing syntax, and I find that bad because I feel like the devs who introduced those extensions should have done a better work and give them better syntax.
00:27:02 <b_jonas> but I don't use Haskell these days so I mostly managed to swap out the details.
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01:13:41 <esowiki> [[1CP=1ICL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77173&oldid=77152 * RocketRace * (+97) Categorization.
01:14:30 <esowiki> [[1CP=1ICL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77174&oldid=77173 * RocketRace * (-4)
02:10:24 <int-e> Wow, somebody got a star on the IBM Ponder This August challenge... I had given up. I hope we'll get to see their approach and how much CPU time they invested.
02:11:11 <int-e> OTOH the September challenge is surprisingly easy?
02:12:28 <int-e> (Starting with the fact that it only asks for examples, not for proofs :P)
02:16:28 <int-e> I sank 5 full days of computation (but using only 6 cores) into the August challenge at 0 <= a,b,c <= 10 and all I have to show for it is that 11 <= optimum for 10 <= 13. I did settle the 0 <= a,b,c <= 9 case though. But I failed to find any useful heuristic for establishing lower bounds at all.
02:18:27 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is juberous.
02:18:30 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is juberous.
02:21:40 <Sgeo> Both Nim and Zig's sum types involve giving the type an explicit tag field.
02:21:51 <Sgeo> Why does this seem... unusua?
02:22:34 <int-e> (FWIW, if I had designed that challenge I would've given the star for finding the best known solution for 0 <= a,b,c <= 100. But maybe that's too spammy because people will just send every single improvement they find? I don't know.)
02:22:37 <Sgeo> https://nim-lang.org/docs/json.html#JsonNodeObj
02:23:00 <int-e> Sgeo: I don't know, it doesn't seem unusual?
02:23:14 <Sgeo> Neither Haskell nor Rust do it
02:23:37 <int-e> But people coming from C will do it.
02:24:02 <int-e> Because of the tag/union pattern.
02:25:02 <int-e> Sgeo: To be clear, I think *neither* way is unusual.
02:26:03 <int-e> For a serialization format, having the tags explicit may be useful, because it's easier for the programmer to understand when they change the underlying encoding.
02:29:12 <int-e> Silly example: In Haskell, if you drop a data constructor that was never used in practice, and also derive the serialization code, you may have trouble remaining backward compatible, because you usually do not assign your own tags then.
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12:11:51 <int-e> .dmg <-- whenever I see that I read it as 'damage'. (it's for "disk image", apparently)
12:14:00 <fizzie> It's also a name for the Game Boy (DMG-01), said to be short for Dot Matrix Game.
12:14:39 <fizzie> Maybe not as a file extension though.
12:15:03 <int-e> That is a pretty accurate description of what the Game Boy is.
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12:15:58 <int-e> In an era full of fixed graphics LCD display games.
12:16:13 <int-e> (not sure what the proper term for that is)
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12:17:18 <fizzie> Yeah, I know what those are, but not what they're called.
12:25:06 <int-e> I guess they're just LCDs, or "custom LCD" if you want to stress that they're neither dot matrix nor boring 7 digit segment ones.
12:25:59 <int-e> Wikipedia has a page on the games... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handheld_electronic_game
12:28:55 <int-e> With a picture of a very clunky looking one... which was led based I guess? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKcd3WjuZhk
12:30:39 <int-e> (And 7 segment display based, not custom. Funny.)
12:30:43 <fizzie> I think we had some of those Game & Watch ones.
12:32:13 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mario_Bros._-_Game%26Watch_-_Nintendo.jpg I think, although that's not the greatest picture.
12:32:38 <int-e> Or maybe it's actually one of those displays... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_fluorescent_display ...which went out of fashion before I really tried to understand technology.
12:36:51 <int-e> Ah that page has this helpful (if not conclusive) bit: "This technology was also used from 1979 to the mid-1980s in portable electronic game units."
12:39:15 <fizzie> I think there was one with >2 screens (3 or 4), too, where the gameplay progressed from one to another, but that doesn't seem to have been a Game & Watch title.
12:42:08 <wib_jonas> int-e, fizzie: it's tricky. there are handheld game consoles with one game with a built in custom LCD and a few buttons, some in watch form but most larger, eventually (but only after the Game Boy) even as complex ones as a real Tetris with a 20x10 block board with 3 LCD segments in each block; but there are also "mini-arcade" portable games that
12:42:08 <wib_jonas> are similar but have a passive chasis and a built-in display with a variety of technology;
12:43:11 <wib_jonas> but also a lot of single-game TV game hardware that doesn't have a built-in display and you connect them to a TV like you'd connect a gaming console that uses cartirdges.
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12:44:06 <wib_jonas> and a lot of miscellanious games that don't clearly fall into genres, including games that combine electronics with traditional mechanical elements and/or human-enforced rules
12:45:42 <wib_jonas> these latter still exist today, as chess computers that detect how you move the physical game pieces on a board, presumably using magnets, electronic darts games that detect where the dart hits, and carnival games that count how many times you kicked the ball into the goal or threw it into the hoop
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15:01:39 <aaaaaa> [Python][SAT] Toy package manager under 200 SLOC on top of SAT solver https://yurichev.com/news/20200901_pkg/
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15:21:38 <t20kdc> ...constraint satisfaction is an NP-problem?
15:22:51 <t20kdc> ...sounds like a reason not to build a package system that requires solving it
15:23:02 <myname> how would you do that?
15:24:19 <myname> you could just always use the newest version of everything and hope it works out
15:24:31 <myname> but that does have obvious downsides
15:25:34 <t20kdc> take soname updates for instance - there's already something in place for side-by-side installation, it just has to be propagated to the package names
15:26:07 <t20kdc> and therefore version constraints aren't necessary
15:27:16 <myname> you just have to install anything like a hundred times. and if you are unlucky, those don't share configs if they should or do share configs if they shouldn't
15:28:03 <t20kdc> in practice, one shouldn't have to install anything a hundred times if everything uses the latest version, and if not, then that's better compatibility than the state of things r/n
15:29:17 <int-e> t20kdc: But in practice, packages lag behind, some versions are broken, possibly only for a few select problems...
15:29:29 <myname> constraint satisfaction is in place it works
15:29:31 <int-e> and things become NP-hard sooner than you can blink
15:30:06 <int-e> problems -> packages
15:30:06 <cpressey> Every problem in CSP is either NP-complete or in P hth
15:30:12 <int-e> good Freudian slip, there.
15:30:29 <rain1> CSP = C_____ Salesman Problem ?
15:30:46 <int-e> cpressey: uh, misuse of "problem"?
15:31:00 <int-e> rain1: constraint satisfaction problem
15:31:24 <int-e> So, confused salesdrone problem
15:31:36 <t20kdc> my point is that moving soname major versions to the package name means that nothing changes unless side-by-side support is required, where it's an improvement (it's already done for, say, LLVM in some distros)
15:31:42 <HackEso> Drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in ancient times.
15:33:08 <t20kdc> similar plans can be enacted in other places. if it makes the problem no longer NP-complete if applied sufficiently, I'm unsure, but it'd at least simplify things
15:33:17 <arseniiv> <int-e> .dmg <-- whenever I see that I read it as 'damage'. (it's for "disk image", apparently) => read that way too
15:33:51 <int-e> . o O ( brain.dmg )
15:35:00 <t20kdc> of course in theory integrated support for side-by-side soname versions at package manager level is just as good for that specific improvement, just more complex
15:37:10 <int-e> t20kdc: enter diamonds...
15:37:36 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * HTTPSONION * New user account
15:37:50 <int-e> (A depends on B,C; B,C depend on D, in such a way that you need to use the same version of D for both)
15:38:17 <t20kdc> int-e: there are always going to be failing situations, but this has less failing situations than the current state of "the app uses an ancient version of libpng and I can't run it"
15:39:26 <int-e> I'm just feeding the idea that the question whether there is a working combination of packages, even if it can be accurately reflected in terms of versions, is naturally NP-hard.
15:40:45 <int-e> And I think it is. I wouldn't necessarily want to use a general purpose SAT solver for this... but mostly because it's hard to obtain stable solutions from them.
15:41:28 <cpressey> I think "simple package management" (for some definition of "simple") reduces to topological sort and I'm pretty sure topological sort is in P. But I'm equally confident that "practical package management" is not reducible to "simple package management", so. Not saying no to a SAT solver.
15:42:25 <t20kdc> topological sort package management is indeed what I was thinking of
15:42:38 <int-e> cpressey: it's mostly the versions that mess things up
15:43:17 <int-e> cpressey: but there's also things like alternative dependencies (several libraries providing the same API... several tools serving the same purpose)
15:44:52 <int-e> oh and of course different versions may have different dependencies as well
15:45:05 <int-e> (as in, depend on different packages)
15:52:11 <cpressey> If packages can have registered conflicts, and alternative dependencies, and there is some logic where it tries to avoid conflicts by trying alternatives -- sounds plausibly in NP to me
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16:26:31 <ais523> a reminder that apt can be made to solve Sudoku (and probably exact cover problems in general)
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16:30:17 <Taneb> ais523: how is the sudoku expressed?
16:34:08 <ais523> http://web.archive.org/web/20160304015611/http://algebraicthunk.net/~dburrows/blog/entry/package-management-sudoku/
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16:42:32 <kritixilithos> cool, i learnt today of a bubblegum quine https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/210416 which linked to a zip quine
16:43:52 <ais523> it'd be interesting to have an esolang which was a "more explicit" form of zip
16:44:02 <ais523> i.e. human readable backreferences, copy lengths, etc.
16:44:12 <ais523> so that the zip quine was easier to fully appreciate
16:44:32 <ais523> (not sure if "was" should be "were" there, normally I'm good with subjunctive grammar but this one flummoxes me)
16:44:46 <ais523> perhaps it should be "would be"?
16:46:57 <ais523> I was right first time
16:47:02 <ais523> I thought so, dpkg doesn't do dependency management
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16:55:10 <Hooloovo0> heh, yeah, dpkg doesn't manage dependencies, it just complains about them
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16:56:04 <t20kdc> ais523: the primary problem with that is the huffman layer
17:01:31 <ais523> you wouldn't have to replicate that, I doubt it's important to the quine's function
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17:45:15 <b_jonas> so I have a really silly idea. TIDE CUBE. oceans have two simultaneous tides during a 24-hour rotation, one on the day side caused by the Sun's gravitational pull, one on the night side caused by the Moon's gravitational pull. the common men of the ancient world, who lived their life in harmony with nature, working outdoors as farmers or sailors, knew this correctly. they didn't know the cause, which is
17:45:21 <b_jonas> understandable because they lived before Saint John told them about the four corners of Earth, so they invented such supernatural explanations as two giant sea monsters, Scylla and Charybdis, causing the tides.
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17:49:32 <b_jonas> but then a new elite rose, and instead of working, they leeched on the common man, shut themselves in ivory towers, and started to make theories, very rarely emerging to observe the real world and fact-check their theories. thus these people, Aristoteles and Erasthotenes, claimed that Earth was round. so did Columbus, who was more misguided because he had heard of the true teachings of the Bible and yet
17:49:38 <b_jonas> contradicted them, and ordered common men how to build sailing ships on this principle, without having any actual practice in seafaring. he led his men on a false path, and would have perished if it weren't for a timely mutiny of his men taking the ships back to the straight path.
17:50:05 <b_jonas> Columbus, of course, denied this, and claimed that he went the impossible round path and arrived to the East by going to the West, but we know that his men managed to take him straight to the West.
17:50:58 <b_jonas> If a physicist only works 8 hours a day, there's no way they can observe the two simultaneous tides in one day.
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17:51:42 <b_jonas> thus even today textbooks are full of incorrect explanations of tides.
17:53:51 <Hooloovo0> huh, someone already has tidecube.com
17:58:37 <b_jonas> Hooloovo0: yes, there's a well-known washing machine detergent brand called "Tide", and there are at least dishwasher detergents distributed as cubes, so it's not too far-fetched as a brand that they'd want to use
17:59:07 <b_jonas> it would be surprising if no domain name squatter bought such a nice short English compound word under .com
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18:35:26 <arseniiv> b_jonas: my cheeks hurt, or my sanity, I don’t know which
18:36:02 <arseniiv> (may I also suggest a TIE CUBE)
18:38:38 <arseniiv> hm. TIRE CUBE. Tires are actually cubical, it’s just our eyes have a peculiar malfunction regarding them, as do our other optical devices as they are produced to fit our eyes’ functions to a degree. Only a garbage-level camera may approach the true image of tires (but while doing this, tire to death and explode)
18:39:06 <arseniiv> this is no competition even for TIDE CUBE, though, yep
18:39:43 <arseniiv> s/disregarding/and not even regarding
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19:15:19 <spruit11> No `chr` function in sight. https://unicode-org.github.io/icu-docs/apidoc/released/icu4c/uchar_8h.html
19:16:33 <spruit11> Let's hope it is since it's probably just a cast?
19:19:21 <spruit11> double u_getNumericValue(UChar32 c)
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20:33:19 <spruit11> egelbot: using String;; chr 0x1f994
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20:53:02 <spruit11> Using libicu which uses utf-16 under water always surprises. Bug fixed.
21:00:09 <zzo38> If a program deals with both UTF-8 and UTF-16, I would suggest implementing WTF-M-8. If it works with UTF-8 only, then I would suggest at least UTF-G-8.
21:00:35 <spruit11> Too late. I already decided in the beginning on libicu.
21:00:49 <spruit11> I have no idea how to implement all the voodoo otherwise.
21:01:02 <spruit11> Plus, regexes. I wanted that too.
21:01:33 <zzo38> I used PCRE for regular expressions.
21:24:24 <shachaf> But PCRE expressions are not regular.
21:24:28 <zzo38> Is there something like magnet: URIs but for NNTP? Such a URI should include newsgroup name and message ID, and optionally timestamp, host/port, and hash value. (I suppose only message ID is really required, but newsgroup name is recommended too.)
21:24:49 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, they do things that mathematical regular expressions don't do, although these features can often be useful.
21:31:53 <arseniiv> . o O ( let’s call them irregular expressions )
21:32:48 <fizzie> There's the 'news' URI scheme, which (unlike the 'nntp' scheme) can indicate either a specific article (via message ID), or a specific set of newsgroups (by name, with wildcards) optionally indicating a server.
21:32:59 <fizzie> Unfortunately, I don't think it can *both* provide a message ID and any of that other useful data (newsgroup, server, timestamp) that would make locating the message easier. It's a sad omission.
21:33:39 <shachaf> I want a regular expression library with conjunction and negation.
21:34:38 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes, that is why I wanted it, due to that limitation.
21:36:08 <b_jonas> shachaf: would that actually help with http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2011-04-25.1871.html ?
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21:37:00 <shachaf> b_jonas: Make the expression shorter? I'm not sure.
21:37:07 <shachaf> I bet there are other, easier features that would make it shorter.
21:37:26 <shachaf> What does the minimal NFA for that expression look like?
21:38:08 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, such as perl's feature that lets you copy a subexpression by reference. that would make it very short, because it lets you encode the, I think, 42 states of the regex and all paths among them.
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21:39:36 <shachaf> https://blog.tanyakhovanova.com/2009/08/divisibility-by-7-is-a-walk-on-a-graph-by-david-wilson/ is pretty small.
21:39:47 <b_jonas> shachaf: I think there are 42 states (or 43 if you don't want to accept the empty string as a valid representation of zero), namely 7 for the reminder classes modulo 7 of the part of the number you've seen, times 6 for the 6 different positions
21:40:44 <b_jonas> shachaf: hmm ok, then I guess I'm wrong, you only need 7 states? I dunno
21:57:56 <b_jonas> maybe you need 7 states when reading from left to right, but 42 states when reading from right to left
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22:20:35 <shachaf> I think you need 7 either way?
22:20:53 <shachaf> Anyway, you don't need the extra power you get from complement to implement this.
22:21:03 <shachaf> By extra power I mean an extra exponential to turn an AFA into a DFA.
22:32:41 <esowiki> [[Conveyer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77175&oldid=77148 * Abbin21 * (+69)
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23:11:25 <int-e> b_jonas: you only need 7 states no matter what
23:11:53 <b_jonas> int-e: yeah. I was just wrong
23:12:37 <int-e> things get more interesting when gcd(d,b) > 1, where d is the number you're dividing by and b is the base.
23:15:42 <int-e> Though, hmm. Divisibility by 8 needs 8 states either way. But from left to right it's just remainders; from right to left, you get 1 + 4 + 2 + 1 states, and maybe one more rejecting state depending on the flavor of DFA.
23:16:53 <int-e> (That flavor depends on whether a DFA is allowed to be partial or not)
23:18:42 <int-e> Oh, no, I'm doing this wrong.
23:21:15 <int-e> 5 states are enough going from left to right. We have to keep track of whether it's divisible by 8. And then we need the remainder modulo 4.
23:21:44 <int-e> (and only one of those remainders allows the number to be divisible by 8, so it's 4+1 = 5 states)
23:23:51 <b_jonas> int-e: I think you also don't need all the remainders from left to right. it doesn't matter which odd number your number starts with
23:23:59 <b_jonas> oh yeah, that's what you said
23:24:01 <int-e> I wonder how that diagram came to look so crappy (there's some odd outstanding pixels on the ellipse boundaries, for example)
23:24:22 <int-e> b_jonas: Oh right.
23:24:44 <b_jonas> isn't it only like four states?
23:24:49 <int-e> So there's some more collapse.
23:25:15 <b_jonas> four states are: odd, divisible by 2 but not by 4, divisible by 4 but not by 8, divisible by 8
23:25:27 <b_jonas> that's all you need left to right
23:25:42 <int-e> One state for each for remainders 1/3/5/7, 2/6, 4, and 0.
23:26:10 <int-e> Except that... no, I got it right.
23:26:18 <int-e> 12 is not divisible by 8; 32 is.
23:26:26 <int-e> So 1 and 3 cannot be in the same state.
23:28:33 <int-e> Oh wow, only 4096 characters.
23:28:50 <int-e> Ah, no. Pasting went wrong.
23:29:46 <int-e> It's 16233. So the 10793 I have is better :-)
23:32:13 <int-e> (for a regular expression testing divisibility by 7. Mine even excludes the empty string... for free (you can just replace the * at the end by +)
23:32:27 <b_jonas> int-e: post it as a comment then
23:47:19 <esowiki> [[Conveyer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77176&oldid=77175 * Abbin21 * (+156)
23:47:38 <esowiki> [[Conveyer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77177&oldid=77176 * Abbin21 * (+2) /* How it works */
00:16:17 <int-e> b_jonas: I gave it a shot. Won't try again, didn't leave any contact information.
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02:12:53 <Cale> Have you guys heard about the new Jace, Mirror Mage combo with Teferi's Ageless Insight?
02:13:44 <Cale> 4 cards per turn
02:15:25 <Cale> Because Insight replaces the draw effect, the second half doesn't go off and so Jace doesn't lose loyalty.
02:15:34 <shachaf> I don't know either of those cards.
02:16:00 <shachaf> whoa, why doesn't the second half go off?
02:16:06 <shachaf> It's because the CMC is effectively zero?
02:16:48 <Cale> 614.11b If an effect would have a player both draw a card and perform an additional action on that card, and the draw is replaced, the additional action is not performed on any cards that are drawn as a result of that replacement effect.
02:18:01 <shachaf> Why four and not three cards per turn?
02:18:05 <zzo38> I have not seen those cards (or maybe I have, but do not remember).
02:18:09 <Cale> Yeah, the kicker
02:18:16 <Cale> This is the just-spoiled new Jace
02:19:23 <shachaf> So it's a total of five cards per turn including the draw step?
02:20:05 <shachaf> Cale: Remind me, did you slay any spires?
02:20:13 <Cale> Long ago, I did
02:20:16 <zzo38> I have not seen it, so copy the text here so that we can see, I suppose
02:21:01 <Cale> Teferi's Ageless Insight
02:21:01 <Cale> Converted Mana Cost:
02:21:05 <Cale> Legendary Enchantment
02:21:11 <Cale> If you would draw a card except the first one you draw in each of your draw steps, draw two cards instead.
02:21:23 <Cale> Jace, Mirror Mage {1}{U}{U}
02:21:23 <Cale> Legendary Planeswalker — Jace
02:21:23 <Cale> When Jace, Mirror Mage enters the battlefield, if Jace was kicked, create a token that’s a copy of Jace, Mirror Mage except it’s not legendary and its starting loyalty is 1.
02:21:25 <Cale> 0: Draw a card and reveal it. Remove a number of loyalty counters equal to that card’s converted mana cost from Jace, Mirror Mage.
02:22:03 <zzo38> Next time you could use the abbreviated single line format like I do, perhaps.
02:22:20 <Cale> ah, I don't know how to get nice copy/pasteable text for cards
02:22:35 <Cale> I just googled them and copy/pasted from the first results I could find
02:23:14 <zzo38> (It also looks like whoever typed that has entered bad alt text for the mana symbols. Alt text is the text that should be displayed when the image isn't displayed.)
02:27:05 <shachaf> You also didn't include the flavor text.
02:28:27 <zzo38> That is OK, though; for what you were discussing, flavor text (and art) is not relevant.
02:31:26 <zzo38> Do you like the abbreviated single line format that I like to use?
02:38:57 <shachaf> `card-by-name teferi's ageless insight
02:39:05 <shachaf> Must not be updated for M21.
02:39:14 <HackEso> Desert of the True \ Land -- Desert \ Desert of the True enters the battlefield tapped. \ {T}: Add {W}. \ Cycling {1}{W} ({1}{W}, Discard this card: Draw a card.) \ HOU-C
03:25:19 <spruit11> Neat, there goes the moneyz again. Anything else to look forward to?
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05:03:27 <zzo38> How to construct a va_list dynamically in C?
05:08:10 <shachaf> I don't think there's a portable way to do it.
05:08:17 <shachaf> Presumably you can make one based on the ABI.
05:09:05 <shachaf> You can also do something like http://www.talchas.net/tape.c
05:28:39 <zzo38> How common was it in various periods of history (including now) for someone to learn to read and write Latin but not to speak Latin (although they could speak other languages)?
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09:55:41 <int-e> b_jonas: http://www.madore.org/cgi-bin/comment.pl/showcomments?href=http%3a%2f%2fwww.madore.org%2f~david%2fweblog%2f2011-04.html%23d.2011-04-25.1871#comment-27034
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10:12:01 <kritixilithos> int-e: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/75326 ties yours
10:15:12 <int-e> kritixilithos: I love being second... :P
10:17:37 <int-e> kritixilithos: But I wasn't aware of that post. I stumbled across this problem near the end of last year because somebody posted https://github.com/olligobber/DivisibilityRegex which isn't quite optimal. Not sure where that happened; ##math is my guess.
10:17:51 <int-e> But it could also have been here; the logs could tell :P
10:19:57 <int-e> I did bring it up here, but I still think it started on ##math. https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-11-02.html#lle
10:24:56 <b_jonas> kritixilithos: oh! so it's already on golf.se. I'll definitely link that then
10:25:41 <b_jonas> and yes, that shows the short PCRE solution using the recursion extension
10:26:07 <int-e> I wonder whether that method for converting FAs to regular expressions is published. It's rather obvious (I think) so I'm not surprised that somebody else is using it too.
10:27:14 <kritixilithos> int-e: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/75326 ties yours
10:27:23 <int-e> kritixilithos: deja vu
10:28:23 <int-e> b_jonas: "recursion extension", is that what it's called?
10:29:17 <int-e> hmm, should ask a search engine... leaning towards "no".
10:29:19 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't know, I'd have to look at old versions of perl's manpages to know the canonical name, but it allows you to describe context-free grammars using recusions, which was I think the original goal, like describing nested parenthesis
10:30:20 <b_jonas> the strange thing is, David Madore's post isn't even from like 1997, preceding the whole SE, it's only older by a few months than the Golf SE post
10:31:41 <b_jonas> and in fact, it looks like the Golf SE post is motivated by code on github that is even older than David's post
10:31:41 <int-e> maybe somebody asked several people that question around the time
10:49:31 <b_jonas> kritixilithos: we cross-posted then
10:56:35 <b_jonas> `pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/lucky-day/
10:56:37 <HackEso> pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/lucky-day/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
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11:12:42 <Sinthorion> Has anyone ever formalised some definition of "IO complete"/"perfect IO", ie. the ability of a machine to read and print any given string, with the output depending on the input?
11:16:45 <cpressey> I think people are generally satisfied with the idea that any given string can be mapped to a natural number, and that there exist functions that take natural numbers to natural numbers, and some of those functions can be computed by Turing machine
11:22:32 <b_jonas> Sinthorion: interactive or non-interactive?
11:24:01 <Sinthorion> we talked about this a bit on the esolangs discord server
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13:28:35 <arseniiv> I wonder how mostrous would be an esolang which uses a generalized Minsky machine operating on Haskell-like strings, as there would be a end-of-string constructor and a constructor *for each Unicode codepoint*, and the primitive recursion operator takes such many arguments. Of course one could cheat and make so that it takes only several explicit arguments and all others are taken to be (λx1 … xn. "") but as I said that’s not the s
13:28:36 <arseniiv> wait, I mixed GMM with generalized recursive functions. They are almost one and the same, in GMM instead of recursion operator we’d have a destructor which takes one input register and a hell of output registers, one for each constructor, and also the same number of continuation states. We can cheat the same way here, specifying a “default” continuation state and a “default” output register, and again I would be against doing
13:28:36 <arseniiv> that :P the tarpit should remain a tarpit
13:30:01 <spruit11> Heh, there's always one more tiny thing to do before I declare the interpreter beta.
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14:04:43 <b_jonas> spruit11: what does declaring it beta actually mean?
14:05:11 <b_jonas> for the egel interpreter that is
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14:26:18 <spruit11> That I feel confident about the core functionality of the rewriter, and that the interpreter is in a good enough stage. Basically, that I wouldn't expect any show stoppers anymore.
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14:31:05 <int-e> . o O ( beta is where software goes to die )
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15:05:44 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1213.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
15:13:57 <Mirage48> here's something i made o a whim
15:13:58 <Mirage48> MowrMowr is ran on an infinte 2-dimensional lawn that is not mown (all 1s) . Wile the mower is on, moving over unmown grass will mow it (turn it into a 0).If there is any input, the bits of the input are formed into an-odd length square centered around the mower in reading order. Extra cells are unmowed (1)Note that the main chore (program) loops
15:13:59 <Mirage48> until you have a break. After all, it is an infinite lawn.Mowr supports the following commands.` - Pushes the mower forward.LR - Turns the mower left/right.! - Switches the mower on/off (default off)? - Turns the mower left if the mower is on mown grass, otherwise turns right.O - outputs the bit the mower is on. If on the initial cell, finish
15:13:59 <Mirage48> mowing the lawn (halt without outputting.).() - Delimits a subchore (loop) Escaped the same way as the main chore.
15:16:44 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> undead software! => but maybe that’s only after gamma
15:18:15 <b_jonas> Mirage48: that... might work, I dunno. the loop condition seems suspicious. but I don't understand why you flavor this as mowing, since there are no stones or other obstacles.
15:19:27 <Mirage48> just an idea that popped into my head
15:19:43 <Mirage48> The inital cell is where the ch\ore was stated, just to clarify
15:22:10 <b_jonas> what? but that's even worse!
15:22:42 <arseniiv> maybe what we need is actually a Clifford-algebraic language. Like, you take an algebra of dimension the same as input length, and generator vectors having squares ±1 depending on the corresponding bit of the input. Now, a program can’t be a term of a fixed size as that won’t be able to process arbitrary-length input. Instead, one can write something like a convolution kernel. Hm but how exactly…
15:23:44 <arseniiv> Clifford algebras are the absolute best in the world
15:24:33 <arseniiv> sorry, sorry, but this half-idea may be promising
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15:25:15 <arseniiv> and also a horror to implrment. The algebra for N generators has dimension 2^N
15:25:41 <arseniiv> so it one uses it sufficiently fully, the implementor couldn’t cheat
15:26:06 <HackEso> tchibo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
15:29:23 <cpressey> How about an esolang that uses naive datetimes and requires somehow that they ambiguously reference UTC times. So that programs only have meaning if they are run during that hour in the autumn before the clocks are set back.
15:30:34 <tchibo> I just registered on the wiki to introduce my first language, not very esoteric, was curious if there is life on the chat
15:30:56 <b_jonas> cpressey: is that like 2014?
15:31:58 <cpressey> b_jonas: yes, it's exacly like 2014, for some value of 2014
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15:33:53 <spruit11> egelbot: 9-5 # because of b_jonas I reversed a decision and implemented normal monadic min behavior again.
15:37:08 <arseniiv> tchibo: there is. Though it’s highly irregular. May be a day or two in silence, only esowiki dumping page modifications
15:39:25 <tchibo> my kingdom for a charger
15:40:49 <arseniiv> I think I’m ready to dump my Clifford algebra idea on the wiki but I don’t want to analyze what computational complexity it will give
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16:11:26 <esowiki> [[Cyclifford]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77178 * Arseniiv * (+1491) Created page with "'''Cyclifford''' is a silly idea of a language by [[User:arseniiv]], based on [[wikipedia:Clifford algebra|Clifford algebra]]s. The program is an expression consisting of int..."
16:12:43 <arseniiv> no one will know for sure until reads the article mwhahahah
16:16:13 <esowiki> [[User:Arseniiv]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77179&oldid=74975 * Arseniiv * (+90) book-keeping
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17:21:43 <spruit11> egelbot: val myglobal = ref 0;; setref myglobal [X->X]; getref myglobal "hello all" #no language is feature complete without global variables
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17:38:18 <esowiki> [[User:SunnyMoon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77180&oldid=77169 * SunnyMoon * (+49) School update.
17:39:46 <esowiki> [[User:SunnyMoon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77181&oldid=77180 * SunnyMoon * (+0) Grammatical Wiki error.
17:40:55 <b_jonas> spruit11: oh, arbitrary mutable references?
17:41:02 <b_jonas> that makes this MUCH more powerful
17:42:51 <esowiki> [[Anyfix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77182&oldid=67569 * SunnyMoon * (-1) What are you doing here, paranthesis?
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19:35:18 <b_jonas> ref, setref, getref? I might try that
19:40:00 <spruit11> But I am confident you can work around that.
19:40:21 <b_jonas> egelbot: [R -> setref R R] (ref 0)
19:40:23 <spruit11> Oh, you can do cycles. But then the structures won't gc.
19:40:35 <b_jonas> ah ok, that makes more sense
19:41:17 <spruit11> I might try a stress test locally and see how fast egel can leak.
19:41:39 <spruit11> Maybe a bit of abuse isn't that bad.
19:52:53 <spruit11> Not sure what I expected except that you don't really notice for small shortlived scripts. And that egel is slow.
19:56:38 <spruit11> Pffrt, how do you measure how much memory a process consumed on linux. Something simpler than valgrind.
19:58:10 <Sgeo> What language is this?
19:58:23 <egelbot> visit https://egel-lang.github.io/
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21:13:24 <b_jonas> egelbot: def listrev_a = [ S nil -> S| S (cons A D) -> listrev_a (cons A S) D ];; def listrev = listrev_a {};; listrev {8,2,13,59,75}
21:18:14 <spruit11> Ah. I tried to analyze your script and didn't get any further that you like accumulators.
21:19:43 <spruit11> If you want a challenge: read it and weep https://github.com/egel-lang/egel/blob/master/examples/bintrees.eg
21:19:56 <b_jonas> spruit11: well it's an eager pure functional language. at least it was, until you added this new mutability feature. I have to program it like an eager functional programming language.
21:20:01 <b_jonas> egelbot: data mcons;; data mnil;; data mhdr;; def mempty = [N -> ref (mhdr N N)] (ref mnil);; def mpush = [A H -> [(mhdr F T) U -> setref T (mcons A U); setref H (mhdr F U) | _ _ -> throw "error mpush"] (getref H) (ref mnil) ];; def munlist = [H -> [(mhdr F _) -> listrev ([R N -> R R {} N] [R P mnil -> A | R P (cons A D) -> R R (cons A P) (getref D) -> | _ _ _ -> error "munlist" ] (getref F)) ] ]
21:20:01 <egelbot> internal:1:346:syntactical:] expected
21:20:19 <b_jonas> egelbot: data mcons;; data mnil;; data mhdr;; def mempty = [N -> ref (mhdr N N)] (ref mnil);; def mpush = [A H -> [(mhdr F T) U -> setref T (mcons A U); setref H (mhdr F U) | _ _ -> throw "error mpush"] (getref H) (ref mnil) ];; "ok"
21:22:15 <b_jonas> egelbot: def munlist = [H -> [(mhdr F _) -> [R N -> listrev (R R {} N)] [R P mnil -> A | R P (cons A D) -> R R (cons A P) (getref D) -> | _ _ _ -> error "munlist" ] (getref F) | _ -> throw "munlist h" ] (getref H) ];; "ok"
21:22:16 <egelbot> internal:1:126:syntactical:] expected
21:22:51 <b_jonas> egelbot: def munlist = [H -> [(mhdr F _) -> [R N -> listrev (R R {} N)] [R P mnil -> A | R P (cons A D) -> R R (cons A P) (getref D) | _ _ _ -> error "munlist" ] (getref F) | _ -> throw "munlist h" ] (getref H) ];; "ok"
21:22:51 <egelbot> internal:1:78:semantical:undeclared A
21:22:59 <b_jonas> egelbot: def munlist = [H -> [(mhdr F _) -> [R N -> listrev (R R {} N)] [R P mnil -> P | R P (cons A D) -> R R (cons A P) (getref D) | _ _ _ -> error "munlist" ] (getref F) | _ -> throw "munlist h" ] (getref H) ];; "ok"
21:22:59 <egelbot> internal:1:137:semantical:undeclared error
21:23:08 <b_jonas> egelbot: def munlist = [H -> [(mhdr F _) -> [R N -> listrev (R R {} N)] [R P mnil -> P | R P (cons A D) -> R R (cons A P) (getref D) | _ _ _ -> throw "munlist" ] (getref F) | _ -> throw "munlist h" ] (getref H) ];; "ok"
21:23:29 <egelbot> (mhdr <System:reference> <System:reference>)
21:24:28 <b_jonas> egelbot: [M -> mpush 8 M; mpush 22 M; mpush 13 M; mpush 59 M; mpush 75 M; munlist M] mempty
21:25:13 <b_jonas> egelbot: def munlist = [H -> [(mhdr F _) -> [R N -> listrev (R R {} N)] [R P mnil -> P | R P (cons A D) -> R R (cons A P) (getref D) | _ NN PP -> throw ("munlist",NN,PP) ] (getref F) | _ -> throw "munlist h" ] (getref H) ];; "ok"
21:25:17 <b_jonas> egelbot: [M -> mpush 8 M; mpush 22 M; mpush 13 M; mpush 59 M; mpush 75 M; munlist M] mempty
21:25:17 <egelbot> exception(("munlist", {}, (mcons 8 <System:reference>)))
21:25:38 <b_jonas> egelbot: def munlist = [H -> [(mhdr F _) -> [R N -> listrev (R R {} N)] [R P mnil -> P | R P (mcons A D) -> R R (cons A P) (getref D) | _ NN PP -> throw ("munlist",NN,PP) ] (getref F) | _ -> throw "munlist h" ] (getref H) ];; "ok"
21:25:42 <b_jonas> egelbot: [M -> mpush 8 M; mpush 22 M; mpush 13 M; mpush 59 M; mpush 75 M; munlist M] mempty
21:27:59 <b_jonas> egelbot: def mextend = [nil H -> nop | (cons A D) H -> mpush A H; mextend D H | _ _-> throw "mextend" ];; mlist = [M L -> mextend L M; M] mempty
21:27:59 <egelbot> internal:1:105:syntactical:= unexpected
21:28:05 <b_jonas> egelbot: def mextend = [nil H -> nop | (cons A D) H -> mpush A H; mextend D H | _ _-> throw "mextend" ];; def mlist = [M L -> mextend L M; M] mempty
21:28:18 <b_jonas> egelbot: munlist mlist {8,22,13,59,75}
21:28:18 <egelbot> exception("System:getref bad arguments")
21:28:32 <b_jonas> egelbot: mlist {8,22,13,59,75}
21:28:38 <b_jonas> egelbot: getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75})
21:28:38 <egelbot> (mhdr <System:reference> <System:reference>)
21:28:50 <b_jonas> egelbot: [F T -> (getref F, getref T)] getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75})
21:28:51 <egelbot> exception("System:getref bad arguments")
21:28:58 <b_jonas> egelbot: [(mhdr F T) -> (getref F, getref T)] getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75})
21:28:58 <egelbot> (Local:Dummy170 System:getref <System:reference>)
21:29:20 <b_jonas> egelbot: [(mhdr F T) -> (getref F, getref T)] (getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75}))
21:29:20 <egelbot> ((mcons 8 <System:reference>), mnil)
21:29:20 <spruit11> I am not sure you gain much by using an accumulator. I have the feeling it just changes the order of calculations. Need to check that once.
21:29:32 <spruit11> But watching a movie and profiling.
21:29:43 <b_jonas> spruit11: I wouldn't gain much *now* when I could just use mutability everywhere
21:30:01 <b_jonas> I don't need to use pure structures anymore, so it's possible to dispense with accumulators
21:30:14 <b_jonas> but I wrote that program when it was a pure language
21:30:27 <b_jonas> and you even said you don't really want to add mutability
21:30:32 <spruit11> Yah, sure. I was thinking about that program.
21:31:08 <spruit11> I should matter in memory consumption but not much in performance, I have the feeling now.
21:31:11 <b_jonas> if it's an eager pure functional language, you hvae to use accumulators
21:31:38 <spruit11> Oh gawd. I am going back to watching this movie.
21:31:56 <b_jonas> egelbot: [(mhdr F T) -> (getref F, getref T)] (getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75}))
21:31:56 <egelbot> ((mcons 8 <System:reference>), mnil)
21:33:47 <b_jonas> egelbot: [MA, MD, (mhdr F T) -> MA F] [N -> [(mcons A D)->D] (getref N)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->A] (getref N)] (getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75}))
21:33:47 <egelbot> internal:1:5:syntactical:-> expected
21:34:08 <b_jonas> egelbot: [MA MD (mhdr F T) -> MA F] [N -> [(mcons A D)->D] (getref N)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->A] (getref N)] (getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75}))
21:34:30 <b_jonas> egelbot: [MD MA (mhdr F T) -> MA F] [N -> [(mcons A D)->D] (getref N)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->A] (getref N)] (getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75}))
21:34:36 <b_jonas> egelbot: [MD MA (mhdr F T) -> MA MD F] [N -> [(mcons A D)->D] (getref N)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->A] (getref N)] (getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75}))
21:34:36 <egelbot> exception("System:getref bad arguments")
21:34:41 <b_jonas> egelbot: [MD MA (mhdr F T) -> MD F] [N -> [(mcons A D)->D] (getref N)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->A] (getref N)] (getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75}))
21:34:48 <b_jonas> egelbot: [MD MA (mhdr F T) -> getref (MD F)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->D] (getref N)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->A] (getref N)] (getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75}))
21:34:48 <egelbot> (mcons 22 <System:reference>)
21:34:52 <b_jonas> egelbot: [MD MA (mhdr F T) -> MA (MD F)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->D] (getref N)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->A] (getref N)] (getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75}))
21:34:56 <b_jonas> egelbot: [MD MA (mhdr F T) -> MD (MD F)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->D] (getref N)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->A] (getref N)] (getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75}))
21:35:04 <b_jonas> egelbot: [MD MA (mhdr F T) -> getref (MD (MD F))] [N -> [(mcons A D)->D] (getref N)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->A] (getref N)] (getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75}))
21:35:04 <egelbot> (mcons 13 <System:reference>)
21:35:09 <b_jonas> egelbot: [MD MA (mhdr F T) -> getref (MD (MD (MD F)))] [N -> [(mcons A D)->D] (getref N)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->A] (getref N)] (getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75}))
21:35:09 <egelbot> (mcons 59 <System:reference>)
21:35:15 <b_jonas> egelbot: [MD MA (mhdr F T) -> getref (MD (MD (MD (MD F))))] [N -> [(mcons A D)->D] (getref N)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->A] (getref N)] (getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75}))
21:35:15 <egelbot> (mcons 75 <System:reference>)
21:35:22 <b_jonas> egelbot: [MD MA (mhdr F T) -> getref (MD (MD (MD (MD (MD F)))))] [N -> [(mcons A D)->D] (getref N)] [N -> [(mcons A D)->A] (getref N)] (getref (mlist {8,22,13,59,75}))
21:35:46 <b_jonas> egelbot: munlist (mlist {8,22,13,59,75})
21:35:56 <b_jonas> why wasn't that working before?
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23:04:21 <b_jonas> egelbot: mprime_i = [C M->[R(mhdr F _)->R R (getref F)] [R (mcons A D)-> [true _->true| _ true->false| _ _->R R (getref D) ] (0==(C%A)) (C<A*A) | _ _->throw"error mprime_i"] M];; "ok"
23:04:22 <egelbot> internal:1:11:syntactical:= unexpected
23:04:25 <b_jonas> egelbot: def mprime_i = [C M->[R(mhdr F _)->R R (getref F)] [R (mcons A D)-> [true _->true| _ true->false| _ _->R R (getref D) ] (0==(C%A)) (C<A*A) | _ _->throw"error mprime_i"] M];; "ok"
23:04:53 <b_jonas> egelbot: mprime_i 12 (mlist{2,3,5,7,11})
23:04:53 <egelbot> (Local:mprime_i0 (Local:mprime_i2 12) <System:reference>)
23:06:00 <b_jonas> egelbot: def mprime_i = [C M->[R(mhdr F _)->R R (getref F)|_ _->throw"error mprime_i h"] [R (mcons A D)-> [true _->true| _ true->false| _ _->R R (getref D) ] (0==(C%A)) (C<A*A) | _ _->throw"error mprime_i"] M];; "ok"
23:06:04 <b_jonas> egelbot: mprime_i 12 (mlist{2,3,5,7,11})
23:06:04 <egelbot> exception("error mprime_i h")
23:08:15 <b_jonas> egelbot: def mprime_i = [C M->[R(mhdr F _)->R R (getref F)|_ _->throw("error mprime_i h",] [R (mcons A D)-> [true _->true| _ true->false| _ _->R R (getref D) ] (0==(C%A)) (C<A*A) | _ _->throw"error mprime_i"](getref M)];; "ok"
23:08:15 <egelbot> internal:1:82:syntactical:primary expression expected
23:08:40 <b_jonas> egelbot: def mprime_i = [C M->[R(mhdr F _)->R R (getref F)|_ _->throw"error mprime_i h"] [R (mcons A D)-> [true _->true| _ true->false| _ _->R R (getref D) ] (0==(C%A)) (C<A*A) | _ _->throw"error mprime_i"] (getref M)];; "ok"
23:08:46 <b_jonas> egelbot: mprime_i 12 (mlist{2,3,5,7,11})
23:08:49 <b_jonas> egelbot: mprime_i 13 (mlist{2,3,5,7,11})
23:08:51 <b_jonas> egelbot: mprime_i 14 (mlist{2,3,5,7,11})
23:08:54 <b_jonas> egelbot: mprime_i 15 (mlist{2,3,5,7,11})
23:08:58 <b_jonas> egelbot: mprime_i 17 (mlist{2,3,5,7,11})
23:09:02 <b_jonas> egelbot: mprime_i 19 (mlist{2,3,5,7,11})
23:09:04 <b_jonas> egelbot: mprime_i 21 (mlist{2,3,5,7,11})
23:15:56 <b_jonas> egelbot: mprime = [M B->[R->R R 3] [R F-> [true-> [true->mpush F M| _->nop] (mprime_i F M); R R (1+F) |_->munlist M] (F<B) ] ](mlist 2)
23:15:56 <egelbot> internal:1:9:syntactical:= unexpected
23:16:12 <b_jonas> egelbot: def mprime = [M B->[R->R R 3] [R F-> [true-> [true->mpush F M| _->nop] (mprime_i F M); R R (1+F) |_->munlist M] (F<B) ] ](mlist 2); mprime 30
23:16:56 <b_jonas> egelbot: def mprime = [M B->[R->R R 3] [R F-> [true-> [true->mpush F M| _->"irrelevant"] (mprime_i F M); R R (1+F) |_->munlist M] (F<B) ] ](mlist 2); mprime 30
23:17:26 <b_jonas> egelbot: def mprime = [M B->[R->R R 3] [R F-> [true-> [true->mpush F M| _->"?"] (mprime_i F M); R R (1+F) |_->munlist M] (F<B) ] ](mlist 2);; mprime 30
23:17:36 <b_jonas> egelbot: def mprime = [M B->[R->R R 3] [R F-> [true-> [true->mpush F M| _->"?"] (mprime_i F M); R R (1+F) |_->munlist M] (F<B) ] ](mlist{2});; mprime 30
23:17:36 <egelbot> {2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 22, 24, 26, 28}
23:17:45 <b_jonas> egelbot: def mprime = [M B->[R->R R 3] [R F-> [true-> [false->mpush F M| _->"?"] (mprime_i F M); R R (1+F) |_->munlist M] (F<B) ] ](mlist{2});; mprime 30
23:17:45 <egelbot> {2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29}
23:17:56 <egelbot> {2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43, 47, 53, 59, 61, 67, 71, 73, 79, 83, 89, 97, 101, 103, 107, 109, 113, 127, 131, 137, 139}
23:18:09 <b_jonas> [ s=:2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43, 47, 53, 59, 61, 67, 71, 73, 79, 83, 89, 97, 101, 103, 107, 109, 113, 127, 131, 137, 139
23:18:16 <j-bot> b_jonas: 2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 29 31 37 41 43 47 53 59 61 67 71 73 79 83 89 97 101 103 107 109 113 127 131 137 139
23:20:32 <b_jonas> def listdrop = [N S -> [ true M->M| _ nil->nil| _ (cons A D)->listdrop (-1+N)D| _ _->throw "error listdrop list" ] (N<=0) S ]
23:20:42 <b_jonas> egelbot: def listdrop = [N S -> [ true M->M| _ nil->nil| _ (cons A D)->listdrop (-1+N)D| _ _->throw "error listdrop list" ] (N<=0) S ];; ok
23:20:42 <egelbot> internal:1:130:semantical:undeclared ok
23:20:45 <b_jonas> egelbot: def listdrop = [N S -> [ true M->M| _ nil->nil| _ (cons A D)->listdrop (-1+N)D| _ _->throw "error listdrop list" ] (N<=0) S ];; "ok"
23:20:56 <egelbot> internal:1:2:semantical:undeclared ping
23:21:06 <b_jonas> egelbot: data pong;; def ping = pong;; ping
23:22:02 <b_jonas> egelbot: def listlen_a = [P nil->P| P (cons A D)->listlen(1+P)D| _->throw"error listlen" ];; def listlen = listlen_a 0;; "ok"
23:22:02 <egelbot> internal:1:43:semantical:undeclared listlen
23:22:32 <b_jonas> egelbot: def listlen_a = [P nil->P| P (cons A D)->listlen_a(1+P)D| _->throw"error listlen" ];; def listlen = listlen_a 0;; "ok"
23:23:10 <b_jonas> egelbot: [L-> listdrop (-40+(listlen L)) L] (mprime 1000)
23:23:11 <egelbot> {727, 733, 739, 743, 751, 757, 761, 769, 773, 787, 797, 809, 811, 821, 823, 827, 829, 839, 853, 857, 859, 863, 877, 881, 883, 887, 907, 911, 919, 929, 937, 941, 947, 953, 967, 971, 977, 983, 991, 997}
23:23:22 <b_jonas> egelbot: [L-> listdrop (-40+(listlen L)) L] (mprime (1<<16))
23:24:01 <egelbot> {65099, 65101, 65111, 65119, 65123, 65129, 65141, 65147, 65167, 65171, 65173, 65179, 65183, 65203, 65213, 65239, 65257, 65267, 65269, 65287, 65293, 65309, 65323, 65327, 65353, 65357, 65371, 65381, 65393, 65407, 65413, 65419, 65423, 65437, 65447, 65449, 65479, 65497, 65519, 65521}
23:24:58 <b_jonas> [ p:(_40+i.40)+ (p:^_1) 65536
23:24:58 <j-bot> b_jonas: |domain error
23:24:58 <j-bot> b_jonas: | p:(_40+i.40)+( p:^_1)65536
23:25:16 <j-bot> b_jonas: |domain error
23:25:16 <j-bot> b_jonas: | ( p:^_1)65536
23:25:36 <b_jonas> [ p:(_40+i.40)+ (p:^:_1) 65536
23:25:36 <j-bot> b_jonas: 65099 65101 65111 65119 65123 65129 65141 65147 65167 65171 65173 65179 65183 65203 65213 65239 65257 65267 65269 65287 65293 65309 65323 65327 65353 65357 65371 65381 65393 65407 65413 65419 65423 65437 65447 65449 65479 65497 65519 65521
23:26:01 <b_jonas> [ s=: 65099, 65101, 65111, 65119, 65123, 65129, 65141, 65147, 65167, 65171, 65173, 65179, 65183, 65203, 65213, 65239, 65257, 65267, 65269, 65287, 65293, 65309, 65323, 65327, 65353, 65357, 65371, 65381, 65393, 65407, 65413, 65419, 65423, 65437, 65447, 65449, 65479, 65497, 65519, 65521
23:26:06 <b_jonas> [ s-: p:(_40+i.40)+ (p:^:_1) 65536
23:26:20 <b_jonas> spruit11: mutabile boxes seem to work
23:27:06 <spruit11> There are not a lot I could do wrong there. But thanks for testing it. Helps a lot.
23:27:26 <spruit11> What do you think? Slow but correct?
23:27:55 <b_jonas> spruit11: well it certainly seems to work
23:28:41 <spruit11> Yah. I'll move it to beta next. I think. Which doesn't mean a lot except that I'll change some texts on websites.
23:31:21 <b_jonas> spruit11: what are your future plans? mutable vectors? a list sorting primitive function in the library implemented in C++, plus a few helper wrapper data constructors that have funny comparison rules (at least one that compares backwards)? proper format (sprintf) functions so we can print numbers in ways other than the default format? I'm asking these because these are much easier to implement as
23:31:21 <b_jonas> built-ins than trying to write them in egel
23:32:27 <b_jonas> spruit11: oh and also, do you have more integer primitives? like wrapping addition and subtraction, unsigned less and lessequal, wrapping multiplication, unsigned high multiplication, signed high multiplication, index of first bit?
23:33:03 <b_jonas> those too fall in the category of things that are much easier to write in C++ than in egel.
23:33:15 <b_jonas> or maybe egel-bot improvements?
23:33:59 <b_jonas> like, more protection so you can't easily flood the channel with a [R->R R][R->print"spam";R R]
23:34:00 <spruit11> Even if I have a sluggish interpreter I want it to be easy to bind to C/C++.
23:34:10 <b_jonas> well that's interesting too
23:34:35 <spruit11> No, won't work on the bot. The bot is mostly there to show you can embed egel in a C++ application.
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23:35:53 <spruit11> The idea is to have something as an alternative to building your own DSL. Just use Egel and toss in some combinators.
23:36:17 <spruit11> Not entirely unique, of course. Lisp/Python is good at that too.
23:38:46 <spruit11> I have a start of that here: https://github.com/egel-lang/egel/tree/master/contrib/ffi
00:14:31 <spruit11> I made a profile of a bintrees benchmark: https://pastebin.com/tLEpdApj
00:15:16 <zzo38> Different kind of thing good for a different purpose of programming language, depending what DSL you are making, I think.
00:17:49 <spruit11> Yah. I won't claim you should always choose this as a solution. And certainly not at the moment. But could be nice.
00:19:58 <zzo38> Yes, maybe sometimes; I don't know.
00:21:41 <spruit11> Yah, ah well, dreams. THere's a good chance I'll declare it beta, shelf it, and sit on it for another year. It isn't supposed to be work.
00:25:27 <zzo38> Sometimes I just invent my own DSL for the specific use of something, and other times won't need a DSL, due to something else being available, etc.
00:26:56 <spruit11> Dunno. I do recommend anyone Lua/Lisp/Python over Egel at the moment. But the last time I tried to compare Egel to Python, the latter ran out of stack space after 900 recursive calls.
00:27:13 <spruit11> So, there just might be a case. Sluggish, but robust.
00:28:49 <b_jonas> grapple below croc, bombs at croc, high jump at croc!
00:28:59 <b_jonas> sorry, wrong channel still
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00:33:26 <imode> b_jonas: sgdq or something? I see super metroid.
00:33:55 <b_jonas> imode: not SGDQ, that has ended already
00:34:44 <imode> is there a super metroid race I don't know about.
00:37:36 <b_jonas> imode: an exhibition match of super metroid randomizer accessible (SMRAT) between the winners of the two brackets of the tournament
00:37:45 <b_jonas> on twitch channel Speedrunnersarena
00:37:52 <b_jonas> third match of best of five starting soon
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00:49:44 <zzo38> Recently, for doing some calculations I am using JavaScript code. Know that you can write something like const {abs,max,min,sqrt}=Math; in order to put some functions in the scope to avoid needing the prefix each time. (For some reason, I only thought to start doing that recently.)
00:50:25 <zzo38> Also, specifically in Node.js, you can write something like: module.exports[require("util").inspect.custom]=()=>`documentation goes here` in case you want documentation displayed when a module is imported into the REPL.
00:50:43 <spruit11> Yah, I believe JS is a pretty good language.
00:51:12 <b_jonas> zzo38: a lot of languages allow that. in C++, using std::abs; using std::min; using std::max; using std::sqrt; in python it's from math import sqrt; (the other three are in the prelude); etc
00:51:35 <zzo38> Yes. There are some features I dislike (such as automatic semicolon insertion), but it is mostly good, I think.
00:51:42 <b_jonas> you can pull in symbols from other packages in rust too
00:54:37 <spruit11> The only thing I don't like about JS is the amount of typing you need to do sometimes. But I'll wager they already fixed that.
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00:58:18 <zzo38> It is good some of the newer things they have added, such as typed arrays, arrow functions, generator functions, and integers.
00:59:11 <spruit11> Heh. https://z-pattern-matching.github.io/
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01:08:26 <zzo38> But I think I read that the implementation of integers requires the left and right operands of many operators to be of the same type (floating or integers); I think that it should not be required for the bit shifting operators (using the type of the left operand as the result type in these cases, instead). Also, last time I checked, there wasn't functions for ctz and popcount and stuff like that.
01:13:16 <spruit11> More food for thought. I am gonna play mtg now.
01:25:47 <zzo38> They are adding new things to JavaScript, but I think some improvements could be made to some other programming languages too, including PostScript, such as alpha transparency, auto-allocation (e.g. when you want to read a line of unknown length from a file), FFI, better string handling, shebang line, Z buffering, etc.
01:28:46 <zzo38> What cards are you playing?
01:30:04 <spruit11> This was a bit boring. I didn't have a nice Boros deck at the moment so I played Red Aggro to just get the dailies out of the way.
01:31:36 <spruit11> I don't know Postscript well but I thought it is doing its job?
01:32:23 <zzo38> It is, although it could do better, like C and JavaScript and whatever are being improved to do better too.
01:32:44 <int-e> Meh, no word about the sole * in the August Ponder This solution :-/ I was really hoping to learn something.
01:33:33 <zzo38> (One problem is the readline command; you have to allocate the string yourself to store the result, and if it is too short for the text of the line to fit, then it is an error; I suggest making it so that if you put null instead of a string, it will allocate a string of the correct size automatically.)
01:33:51 <spruit11> I think I played most the memes of current standard though. Normally I like janky decks.
01:35:21 <int-e> (Or at least be disappointed by something like "they used a 10k CPU cluster for a week to exhaust all possibilities")
01:35:30 <spruit11> Hmm, I guess postscript still 'suffers' from being designed for far less capable printers instead of the monstrosities we have now.
01:36:11 <spruit11> Usually that is a good thing, though.
01:37:14 <zzo38> spruit11: Well, I am using PostScript on computers, not on printers, for one thing. For printers, you might as well use something like PCL, perhaps. I use PostScript as a programming language and think it is not as good as a document format or protocol, because there are other formats for doing that, which are better.
01:37:50 <spruit11> Why not? Stack machines are great for this kind of stuff?
01:37:51 <zzo38> (The result is also not necessarily even going to be a printed page; it might be a PNG file or something like that.)
01:39:16 <zzo38> spruit11: While it does work, it seems too excessive for a protocol or document format.
01:42:28 <zzo38> (For a document format, there is PDF, although I think even for that, PDF is really messy)
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01:46:13 <spruit11> Dunno. I like small concatenative languages for their simplicity but I wouldn't want to program in them. Probably couldn't.
01:46:30 <spruit11> And speed. I appreciate speed.
01:49:15 <zzo38> Well, some people do program in PostScript (actually, I think I read that the inventor of INTERCAL programs in PostScript, too, when they want to do graphics, since PostScript is a good programming language for doing vector graphics).
01:53:36 <spruit11> Stack languages are great if you want to send lots of instructions to some abstract machine with high throughput. That's about the only thing I picked up from looking at them. They're just so simple.
01:53:48 <spruit11> And nicely regular. I like that too.
01:57:44 <zzo38> Do you like to play any D&D or GURPS or similar games? Also, do you like to make up any custom Magic: the Gathering cards?
01:59:35 <spruit11> I am way more boring than that!
02:00:33 <spruit11> No, I mostly spend my time reading up on philosophy, cs, and watching Hollywood crap.
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04:18:00 <Cale> Waaaaait, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is neither a Spirit nor a Dragon
04:20:28 <shachaf> Based on the art it looks like both.
04:22:45 <Cale> Types: Legendary Planeswalker — Ugin
04:23:04 <int-e> It's a planeswalker? Are there any planeswalkers with creature types?
04:23:17 <zzo38> Well, the card isn't a Spirit or Dragon, but perhaps the art is
04:23:23 * int-e never learned properly about planeswalkers.
04:23:54 <Cale> Yeah, I don't think there are any planeswalkers with creature types
04:24:09 <zzo38> int-e: Refer to rule 306 to learn about how the planeswalkers is working.
04:24:17 <int-e> It can still be a dragon in spirit, even if it can't be one on technical grounds.
04:24:38 <zzo38> I think that they don't make any planeswalker cards with other types, although it is possible to make such a card that is also a tribal or creature, and then it can have creature types.
04:24:50 <int-e> zzo38: But I also don't really care to learn properly about planeswalkers.
04:25:54 <zzo38> O, OK. Although, if you want to learn how is the game working for whatever reason, then you should learn about all of the rules of the game.
04:28:08 <shachaf> Gideon, Champion of Justice can have creature types.
04:28:12 <shachaf> Although they aren't printed on the card.
04:28:48 <shachaf> I suppose any planeswalker can be turned into a creature.
04:29:33 <Cale> Can something which is not a creature have a creature type, and if so, will it retain that creature type if it becomes a creature?
04:29:45 <zzo38> Yes, any permanent could, some change themself and some are changed by other effects.
04:32:06 <zzo38> Cale: I think it can include a creature type in the type line of its text, but unless it is a creature or tribal, it won't have those subtypes, and they won't be retained unless an effect says that permanent becomes "an artifact creature" or changes it into a creature "in addition to its other types".
04:33:16 <zzo38> (It is not entirely clear though if it can retain subtypes due purely to its initial text. But I think not, since subtypes are a continuous property (a characteristic).)
04:34:07 <shachaf> What about e.g. https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=373559 ?
04:34:24 <shachaf> Nylea, God of the Hunt, and the other Thorax gods.
04:34:52 <Cale> So if, for example Ugin, The Spirit Dragon was printed with Spirit Dragon in its type line, it wouldn't count towards the number of Dragons you control.
04:35:07 <zzo38> Cale: Yes, I believe so.
04:37:05 <zzo38> (unless something changed it into a artifact creature)
04:39:01 <zzo38> (Although, it is the Oracle text that counts anyways, rather than printed text, although cards are normally printed with the Oracle text of the time when they were printed. But I did read about one exception, where it was printed with Oracle text from the future instead.)
04:39:53 <shachaf> Usually when I get cards they're printed with Oracle text from the past.
04:46:31 <int-e> "oracle text from the future"... so they went forth and back on a change, I guess.
04:46:55 <int-e> Or perhaps it was a deliberate un-card prank.
04:47:13 <int-e> As for the rules I guess I stopped caring about 13 years ago.
04:48:34 <shachaf> I imagine it's from Future Sight.
04:48:44 <shachaf> Maybe https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?multiverseid=136151 ?
04:49:04 <shachaf> I don't know if that was on the Oracle text before it went into the rules or not.
04:49:22 <int-e> They still had mana burn then.
04:50:28 <shachaf> Did they have damage go on the stack?
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04:51:43 <zzo38> Do you mean combat damage on the stack? That was the case at one time, in sixth edition, but they removed that now; the rules work differently.
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04:54:57 <int-e> no battlefield either, an explicit out-of-play zone for phasing, blah...
05:01:00 <shachaf> I'm glad they took blah out
05:03:53 <int-e> (quite pronouncible)
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08:17:14 <b_jonas> Cale: vehicles are printed with creature types, but they only become creatures when you use their "crew" ability to animate them, and then they have those creature types
08:21:40 <b_jonas> Cale: yes, but these days planeswalkers could barely be printed with creature types anymore even if wizards wanted to, because "Legendary Planeswalker - Liliana" takes up most of the type line. the best you could do is a planeswalker with a short planeswalker type and a very short creature type, or a very short planeswalker type and a short creature type, or a changeling ability in the text box. and if
08:21:47 <b_jonas> you tried that, you couldn't reprint that planeswalker in a core set, because those have longer expansion symbols.
08:22:23 <b_jonas> "Legendary Planeswalker Creature - Spirit Dragon Ugin" is right out, and so is "Legendary Artifact Vehicle Planeswalker - Argo Ship"
08:26:18 <b_jonas> even "Legendary Planeswalker - Cat Ajani" is too long for a core set, it could only fit in a set with a normal-sized expansion symbol. although they renamed one creature type to shorter: Hound to Dog.
08:39:46 <Cale> b_jonas: Just gotta keep decreasing the font size until you need a magnifying glass to read it :D
08:40:59 <Cale> "Legendary Enchantment Creature - God"
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09:34:32 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77183&oldid=76811 * Orisphera * (-19) /* General Ideas */
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12:18:57 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77184&oldid=76452 * TwilightSparkle * (+1) /* Equality */
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12:41:45 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77185&oldid=77184 * TwilightSparkle * (+197) /* Medium */
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12:55:08 <esowiki> [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77186&oldid=76791 * TwilightSparkle * (+2) /* Turing-Completeness */
12:59:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Andrew's Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77187&oldid=77167 * Tetrapyronia * (+16)
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14:08:21 <wib_jonas> could we somehow rename "minute" as in the unit of time that's 60 seconds? we have trouble abbreviating it because both "m" or "mn" can stand for either minute or month (yet at least one system uses "m" to abbreviate one and "mn" to abbreviate the other), and even "min" has problems because it already very often stands for "minimum". but I don't
14:08:21 <wib_jonas> know what the best solution could be.
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14:16:35 <FireFly> "min" is a good enough suffix for minute for me
14:16:50 <FireFly> of course, we could just use SI prefixes and seconds \o/
14:17:45 <FireFly> instead of 5 min you just specify 3hs
14:20:23 <FireFly> wib_jonas: but don't worry, UK manages to use 'm' as shorthand for both metres and miles in road signage
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14:28:49 <Taneb> I want to rename the kilogram to something that doesn't have a prefix in it because I don't understand why the SI base unit has a size prefix
14:31:31 <FireFly> reasonable, arguably the gram should be the base unit
14:31:47 <cpressey> wib_jonas: how about sexagintisecond (Latin) or hexecontasecond (Greek)
14:32:02 <cpressey> or, uh, shastisecond (Sanskrit)
14:32:42 <wib_jonas> road signs get *some* excuses from the usual rules because they have to limit the amount of text to remain readable. here, most road signs give distances in kilometers but don't have the unit explicitly written out, with three exceptions.
14:33:20 <cpressey> What gets me is that an hour is nicely divisible by 3 (thank you, Ancient Babylonians) but we never exploit this by saying anything like "It's a third to 11"
14:33:51 <wib_jonas> short distances are usually given in meter, and those use "m" as the unit, so "500 m" is very common on the freeway in context of the second warning of an upcoming exit. small white road signs that give a distance or length below another road sign do explicitly say "km" eg.
14:33:51 <wib_jonas> "https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/M2_aut%C3%B3p%C3%A1lya%2C_kosdi_%C3%BAt_h%C3%ADdja.jpg" . finally speed limit signs use km/h as the unit, and old ones have an explicit "km" (in small letters) to hint at that, but these days the new style without any mention of the unit is more common.
14:35:11 <wib_jonas> cpressey: well some things are quantized to multiples of 5 minutes, but yes, 20 minutes is never used as the unit
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14:39:12 <wib_jonas> info page for that image is "https://commons.wikimedia.org/?curid=79510556"
14:43:41 <FireFly> wib_jonas: sure, we omit unit for the usual km distance signs too, and use explicit 'm' for shorter distances
14:44:29 <FireFly> I would mind it less tbh if UK signage just omitted unit altogther for long mile distances :p but if you use a unit, at least use a unique one
15:50:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:,,,]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77188 * Tetrapyronia * (+247) /* Random Number Generator */ new section
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16:04:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:,,,]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77189&oldid=77188 * Tetrapyronia * (+270)
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17:18:32 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77190&oldid=75045 * Lebster * (-4) /* Hello World */
17:19:16 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77191&oldid=77064 * Lebster * (-101) /* StupidStackLanguage */
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18:09:52 <zzo38> If you need to abbreviate both metres and miles in the road sign maybe you should write "mi" for miles, and "m" for metres, then.
18:18:52 <zzo38> I think that a inch isn't a SI unit and so their abbreviations should not include SI prefixes.
18:22:21 <kmc> milliinch is a common unit but usually called "mil" or "thou" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thousandth_of_an_inch
18:22:34 <kmc> i would say that "mil" is a worse name than milliinch but "thou" is a better one
18:23:10 <arseniiv> zzo38: why not? It’s just that SI prescribes that any, or almost any feasible SI unit should be able to used with SI prefixes, but I’d think it’s not concerned with denying anything outside its scope
18:23:43 <arseniiv> how long art thou o child of inch
18:23:56 <zzo38> arseniiv: I am not denying using SI prefixes on units that are not SI units, but I do deny to use SI prefixes in their abbreviations.
18:24:45 <b_jonas> zzo38: does liter and bar count as SI units? how about bytes and bits?
18:24:53 <b_jonas> and bauds, while we're there
18:24:54 <arseniiv> I’d think denying for some extent would be reasonable indeed but not too strongly
18:25:22 <zzo38> arseniiv: Yes, I suppose so.
18:25:23 <arseniiv> bits I think are somewhere in SI, though we’re probably need a reference now
18:26:10 <zzo38> b_jonas: I don't know, although I think that some are "close enough", although bytes are often abbreviated using binary prefixes rather than SI prefixes anyways
18:26:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: also how about kiloponds, millimeters of mercury, kilocalories? those are definitely not SI units
18:27:17 <zzo38> Well, yes it isn't SI units, but at least millimetres of mercury and kilocalories have common abbreviations, which happen to match those of SI units
18:28:02 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Pipythonmc * New user account
18:28:56 <b_jonas> a liter is 10**(-3) m^3, a bar is 10**5 Pa, so they're at least powers of ten multiples of SI units. a kilopond is slightly less than 10 newton, a millimeter of mercury is around 133 pascal, and a kilocalory is around 4200 joule, but they're derived from the SI units kilogram and meter indirectly.
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18:29:57 <zzo38> (I am only saying that you should not generally add SI prefixes to non-SI units in abbreviations; in some cases they already do do such a thing commonly enough. I suppose you could also treat "mil" as an abbreviation for "milliinch".)
18:30:36 <b_jonas> as for SI prefixes, I would prefer if people would stick to stricter rules about the ones that aren't powers of 1000, that is centi, deci, deka, hecto, and effectively consider them depreciated and no longer productive prefixes, using them only when there's established practice using a specific prefixed unit for a domain.
18:31:22 <zzo38> For litres, I think "mL" is a common abbreviation, as is "L", and for bar, I think "mbar" is common, and for calories, "kCal".
18:32:03 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77192&oldid=77171 * Pipythonmc * (+199) /* Introductions */
18:32:32 <zzo38> I think the ones that aren't powers of 1000 can be useful in some cases, such as maybe they should use myriahertz for the AM radio numbers (some old radio receivers do, but I have never seen them call this unit "myriahertz")
18:32:35 <b_jonas> for milliliter, "ml" is the normal abbreviation, but "mL" and m with a loopy l are sometimes used on products
18:33:17 <b_jonas> "mbar" is used by engineers, which I know becuase I work with them on a project where they have pressure sensors and we display some perssures in mbar
18:34:24 <esowiki> [[User:Pipythonmc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77193 * Pipythonmc * (+171) Created page with "Hi! I'm a new user planning on making a 2D snake based language (a bit similar to ><> but with a different instruction pointer system) I'll update this page if I remember."
18:36:18 <b_jonas> I don't have any experience about the milliinches and stuff, those are used in North America but not here, so I only meet those units on the internet
18:37:22 <zzo38> I also don't like "tonne", I think is confusing with "ton", a suitable word instead of "tonne" should be "megagram"
18:37:26 <arseniiv> I heard inches are usually divided by powers of two
18:37:45 <zzo38> arseniiv: Yes, usually, although not always.
18:38:41 <zzo38> A IBM flowchart template I have includes inches in eighths, tenths, twelfths, and fifteenths. It also includes centimetres.
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18:43:07 <Hooloovo0> I think those are used in scale drawings; those triangular architectural rulers have some pretty wonky ratios on them
18:45:24 <Hooloovo0> in machine shops it's fairly common to speak of hundreths or thousandths of an inch - I've got a very nice machinists ruler with 1/32, 1/64, 1/50 and 1/100 scales
18:46:27 <Hooloovo0> for hertz, I've seen kilo/megacycles, but not myria
19:05:04 <kmc> what about kilomegacycles
19:05:07 <kmc> abbreviated kmc
19:07:25 <kmc> I have seen an old (published 1950) circuit diagram with "µµf" for pF
19:07:36 <kmc> i put it on a shirt. it's pretty esoteric https://i.imgur.com/szTRnRL.png
19:10:41 <zzo38> Shouldn't the abbreviation for "mega" being "M" rather than "m"? Also, I think that you should not put multiple prefixes, isn't it? Also, I have seen "cycles per second" but not not abbreviations like that (other than "cps")
19:11:37 <zzo38> kmc: O, I did not see such thing like that before, but now I did.
19:11:47 <zzo38> What is it a circuit diagram for?
19:16:34 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_per_second
19:16:35 <kmc> Hz was officially introduced in 1960
19:16:57 <kmc> kc and Mc were common abbreviations before that
19:18:08 <fizzie> I've read a book that used "millimicrometer", but it was very non-technical fiction, and I think intended more to evoke a sense of a very short distance rather than to describe a physical thing.
19:18:29 <kmc> whch book? sounds familiar
19:19:03 <fizzie> One of Donald E. Westlake's "Dortmunder" series, as it happens.
19:19:17 <Hooloovo0> I'd have guessed some kind of classic sci-fi
19:19:23 <zzo38> I have used the term "decimicron" to describe the default DVI units, and have later seen that some others have done the same.
19:19:46 <kmc> i think millimicrometer or millimicron were actually used in engineering prior to 1960 which is also the year when nano- was introduced
19:19:56 <kmc> https://themetricmaven.com/realm-of-measure/
19:20:33 <fizzie> "Around them hummed thousands—no, millions—of silent conversations, whistling and whispering through the cables; unfaithful husbands making assignations all unknowingly a millimicrometer away from their all-unknowing faithless wives; business deals being closed an eyelash distance from the unsuspecting subjects who’d be ruined by them; truth and lies flashing along cheek by jowl in parallel lanes,
19:20:39 <fizzie> never meeting; love and business, play and torment, hope and the end of hope all spun together inside the cables from the teeming telephones of Manhattan."
19:20:47 <fizzie> (They're hiding underground in a tunnel used for telephone cables and suchlike.)
19:21:34 <kmc> zzo38: the circuit is a 5-state ring counter. every time a pulse is presented on the "pulse bus" the next triode / neon bulb will start to conduct and the previous one shuts off
19:21:40 <fizzie> (From 1983, so not old enough to predate the nano- prefix.)
19:21:45 <kmc> it's from this book http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/era/High_Speed_Computing_Devices_1950.pdf
19:22:07 <zzo38> Have you seen "decimicron" used anywhere else?
19:22:44 <fizzie> The Lensman series of classic sci-fi probably had some wonky units. It definitely used "kilocycles" and so on in place of Hertz.
19:24:32 <fizzie> Oh, it has a "millimicrosecond" too.
19:28:57 <kmc> zzo38: I don't think so
19:29:10 <fizzie> Not for distance, but IIRC, the default time unit in one speech processing toolkit is 100 ns (to give a better-than-1µs precision while still allowing a 32-bit offset to represent durations up to a typical speech utterance, I think), and I think they might've called it decimicrosecond somewhere.
19:29:47 <Hooloovo0> iirc some old computer or something used microfortnights for delays
19:30:22 <Hooloovo0> the kind of delays that were "about a second, but we don't really know how fast our clock is running yet"
19:30:47 <zzo38> Yes, I have read that too
19:31:21 <fizzie> Though I'm not finding any matches for decimicrosecond in that context, so maybe they just called it a "100 ns unit".
19:32:11 <kmc> the Linux kernel famously uses "jiffies" as a time unit
19:32:54 <kmc> which is a configurable and platform-dependent unit
19:33:16 <b_jonas> kmc: does it still really? I thought that's mostly obsolate, and only appears in some obsolete interfaces.
19:33:21 <kmc> yeah, perhaps
19:33:29 * kmc is amused by microfortnights
19:33:33 <Hooloovo0> I think it still means "the system timer interrupt"
19:33:57 <b_jonas> there's a lot of compatibility of course, including user interfaces that used to be jiffies back when a jiffy had a single concrete value, but later were kept as just whatever that value is regardless of what jiffies are.
19:34:01 <kmc> but is there still a regular system timer interrupt
19:34:21 <kmc> I thought they moved to a tickless system where the kernel figures out before sleeping when the next event it will need to wake for is
19:34:31 <fizzie> Way back when I still cared about building a kernel, they were already introducing config flags for that sort of stuff.
19:34:41 <kmc> there are still scheduler timeslice units and such but not an interrupt that always fires regularly
19:34:42 <Hooloovo0> I'm unsure, but I know it's in the config file
19:36:41 <b_jonas> kmc: it figures out how much to sleep, but people want stupid low-latency UIs that react to their mouse movements in a <insert very small number> nanoseconds, and claim that they can see the difference, so on some systems we keep interrupting processes very often regardless that that slows down everything because a lot of cpu state, including the L1 cache and the L2 cache, keeps trampled when we switch
19:36:47 <b_jonas> between processes, when the CPU could perform well if you just let each process keep computing for a longer time.
19:36:55 <fizzie> (Haven't been following that at all.)
19:37:04 <Hooloovo0> I'm not sure if that's an option on old/weird architectures
19:37:21 <b_jonas> kmc: I think some of the change was brought about when most kernels became SMP-capable. back in the old days, non-SMP kernels were the norm, because few people had more than one CPU core.
19:37:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:,,,]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77194&oldid=77189 * SunnyMoon * (+513) They do not work. :(
19:38:05 <b_jonas> but frankly I don't know much about the details. I'm a user programmer, not a kernel programmer, I don't care too much about the internals of the kernel.
19:40:43 <esowiki> [[,,,]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77195&oldid=77172 * SunnyMoon * (-18) I think people get confused here.
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20:43:24 <esowiki> [[LYaPAS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77196&oldid=75886 * Amakukha * (-21) doesn't seem to based on APL
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20:47:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:LYaPAS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77197&oldid=23290 * Amakukha * (+365) /* Not APL-like */ new section
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22:27:26 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77198 * Zero * (+1649) ByteByteFork is ByteByteJump with multithreading
22:29:52 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77199&oldid=77198 * Zero * (+84)
22:31:17 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77200&oldid=77156 * Zero * (+19)
22:32:59 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77201&oldid=77199 * Zero * (+4)
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22:40:17 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77203&oldid=77202 * Zero * (+17)
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23:30:28 <esowiki> [[1CP=1ICL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77206&oldid=77174 * Camto * (+92) Add #
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00:38:06 <esowiki> [[KRONKSCRIPT]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77207 * McGoodmen * (+2525) Created page with "An Esolang by Zack Umar. Version 1.0.0 ==What is KRONKSCRIPT?== '''KRONKSCRIPT''' is an esoteric programming language based on Kronker Pepikrankenitz. If you do not know of..."
00:38:28 <esowiki> [[KRONKSCRIPT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77208&oldid=77207 * McGoodmen * (-1)
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04:36:12 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77210&oldid=77185 * TwilightSparkle * (+157) /* Control Flow */
04:37:15 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77211&oldid=77210 * TwilightSparkle * (+197) /* If block */
04:38:11 <esowiki> [[,,,]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77212&oldid=77195 * TwilightSparkle * (+95)
04:42:40 <esowiki> [[1CP=1ICL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77213&oldid=77206 * TwilightSparkle * (+133) /* Language specifications */
04:46:33 <esowiki> [[1CP=1ICL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77214&oldid=77213 * TwilightSparkle * (+193) /* Language specifications */
04:47:38 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77215&oldid=77211 * TwilightSparkle * (+153) /* If-else block */
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04:59:24 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77216&oldid=77215 * TwilightSparkle * (+40) /* If-else block */
05:09:53 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77217&oldid=77216 * TwilightSparkle * (+209) /* Control Flow */
05:14:44 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77218&oldid=77217 * TwilightSparkle * (+250)
05:26:49 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77219&oldid=77218 * TwilightSparkle * (+7) /* While loop */
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07:38:09 <esowiki> [[Conglument]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77220&oldid=77166 * Hakerh400 * (+0) /* Overview */
07:39:15 <esowiki> [[Conglument]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77221&oldid=77220 * Hakerh400 * (+1) /* Overview */
07:43:29 <esowiki> [[Conglument]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77222&oldid=77221 * Hakerh400 * (+1) /* Projection */
07:45:36 <esowiki> [[Conglument]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77223&oldid=77222 * Hakerh400 * (+0) /* Composition */
07:46:05 <esowiki> [[Conglument]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77224&oldid=77223 * Hakerh400 * (-1) /* Composition */
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08:15:41 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77225&oldid=77205 * Zero * (+140)
08:17:22 <rain1> Is there a OIES thing for taylor series of functions?
08:23:34 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77226&oldid=77225 * Zero * (+212)
08:29:26 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77227&oldid=77226 * Zero * (+70)
08:36:19 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77228&oldid=77227 * Zero * (-43)
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09:31:25 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77229&oldid=77228 * Zero * (+179)
09:34:24 <esowiki> [[Ix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77230&oldid=76966 * Orisphera * (+167) /* Quine */
09:36:22 <esowiki> [[Ix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77231&oldid=77230 * Orisphera * (+126) /* The language */
10:12:57 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77232&oldid=77219 * TwilightSparkle * (+138) /* Easy */
10:13:18 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77233&oldid=77232 * TwilightSparkle * (+50) /* Comparison */
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12:29:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77234&oldid=76830 * Baidicoot * (+141)
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15:33:59 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77235&oldid=77229 * Zero * (+3200)
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15:35:28 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77236&oldid=77235 * Zero * (-3273)
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16:46:25 <rain1> https://mathworld.wolfram.com/PlasticConstant.html
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17:02:19 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77237&oldid=77236 * Zero * (+185)
17:03:01 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77238&oldid=77237 * Zero * (+10)
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17:35:52 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77239&oldid=77238 * Zero * (+483)
17:36:37 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77240&oldid=77239 * Zero * (-3)
17:37:47 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77241&oldid=77240 * Zero * (+59)
17:38:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:,,,]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77242&oldid=77209 * SunnyMoon * (+190) Okay...
17:51:25 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77243&oldid=77241 * Zero * (-4)
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19:30:13 <esowiki> [[1CP=1ICL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77244&oldid=77214 * Camto * (+328) Add q and w instructions.
19:54:03 <esowiki> [[,,,]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77245&oldid=77212 * SunnyMoon * (-76) my hate I grammar
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20:01:28 <ais523> one weird SI prefix exception is to do with farads; for whatever reason, electronic engineers never use millifarads (and this is something that's taught in textbooks)
20:01:56 <ais523> farads, microfarads, picofarads are all commonly used; according to Wikipedia, nanofarads aren't used in North America but are elsewhere
20:02:31 <ais523> in fact, I've been taught that if I see "mF", it is probably a misprinting/misencoding of "µF", rather than an actual indication of millifarads
20:04:00 <ais523> as for a symbol for minute, it does have a symbol, ′
20:04:10 <ais523> but it isn't commonly used because it looks so much like an apostrophe
20:04:20 <ais523> and SI recommends that it's abbreviated to "min"
20:04:59 <ais523> in practice, it only tends to be alonside ″ for seconds
20:05:46 <fizzie> Unless whoever did it couldn't figure out how to type those and went with ' and " instead.
20:07:22 <ais523> I can type ’ and ” easily enough, but they aren't the right codepoints
20:08:41 <zzo38> In many cases ' and " are suitable, although not always. However, I see them more often in angular measurement I think, such as those in ephemerides.
20:12:57 <ais523> there is an unambiguous symbol for arc-second, it's a seconds symbol with a circumflex on it, ′̂
20:13:02 <ais523> it doesn't render very well in this client
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20:35:06 <ais523> ooh, here's another example of silly SI-ish units; a "1.44 megabyte" floppy disk has a capacity of 1.44×1000×1024
20:35:23 <ais523> "1440 KiB" would be more accurate
20:37:24 <ais523> well, it doesn't make sense, but it's at least mildly plausible how it could have happened
20:37:52 <b_jonas> so it's 1.47 MB or 1.40 MiB
20:38:02 <ais523> fizzie: I considered saying that :-)
20:38:36 <ais523> hmm, I still have some floppy disks, and even floppy disk drives
20:38:41 <ais523> although I haven't used either in years
20:39:09 <ais523> the data that was on them is backed up in numerous places, because they're so small relative to modern storage devices that you can just include a backup of all the floppy disks as a random part of other backups you make
20:39:18 <b_jonas> I don't have physical floppy disks or drives anyomre.
20:39:23 <ais523> so I haven't needed to use the disks themselves
20:39:31 <fizzie> When we went to prepare our flat back in Finland to be rented out, I hooked up a floppy drive to the skeleton of a computer that was still there, and imaged all the floppies.
20:39:41 <fizzie> I think maybe ~70% of them were still readable.
20:41:14 <fizzie> Also did the same for all the CD-Rs, which had a little better success rate, but not 100% either.
20:41:39 <spruit11> 20% off of all goods with jemalloc.
20:43:07 <zzo38> The man page for charmap(5) says that multi-bytes characters is not supported, but in the files on my computer, they seem to be used. The charmap files also have a section for widths, which are not mentioned in the man page, and all of the symbolic names seems to be Unicode numbers, but is this required? (You might want to define character sets which are not compatible with Unicode.)
20:54:00 <ais523> fizzie: now I'm wondering why you imaged them rather than just copying the files; were some of them using interesting copy protection mechanisms?
20:54:12 <ais523> or was it simply easier?
20:55:27 <fizzie> It was just easier. I don't expect any of them had any particularly exotic formats, but there was no storage on that computer and I had limited time, it was easier just to image them and upload back to home, and put them into the "sort through these later" pile.
20:55:43 <b_jonas> I think it's easier, and you can still get the files later.
20:58:47 <zzo38> Well, many programs can read disk images, such as you may be able to mount them on Linux, and 7-Zip can also read many kinds of disk image files
20:59:17 <zzo38> (Also copying the files may cause some of their attributes to be lost, depending on the file system)
20:59:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, and since some of those disks have DOS programs, you can just use the images directly as emulated floppy disks in a virtual machine emulating DOS
21:00:52 <zzo38> Yes, I believe DOSBOX will also read the disk image files directly (although it doesn't support switching floppy disk images; switching is supported only for CDs)
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01:52:59 <fizzie> Heh, the TLS certificate expiration alert I set up for esolangs.org doesn't have the world's most user-friendly formatting. It's saying the expiration is in "2.587664476999998e+06 seconds".
01:55:47 <shachaf> > 2.587664476999998e+06 / 60 / 60 / 24
01:58:30 <esowiki> [[///]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77246&oldid=71201 * YamTokTpaFa * (+128) /* Other implementations */ another implementation
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04:15:17 <int-e> 86400~100k seconds a day
04:18:18 <int-e> fungot: how many days are there in a month?
04:18:18 <fungot> int-e: trace highlight that way has been done. repeatedly.) all qubits in fnord states have always resolved to 1, and 0 otherwise. now this implementation makes it impossible
04:18:44 <int-e> fungot: f**** you too
04:18:44 <fungot> int-e: long double is in c99 so i can fnord
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06:40:31 <esowiki> [[Talk:,,,]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77247&oldid=77242 * Tetrapyronia * (+397)
06:53:31 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77248&oldid=75888 * Cortex * (+6) /* C */
07:05:48 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77249&oldid=77243 * Zero * (+3)
07:07:41 <esowiki> [[Squi~~le]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77250 * Cortex * (+362) g
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07:08:56 <esowiki> [[Squi~~le]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77251&oldid=77250 * Cortex * (+36) woops
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08:31:49 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Reinhardt * New user account
08:36:21 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77252&oldid=77192 * Reinhardt * (+161) /* Introductions */
08:37:09 <esowiki> [[User:Reinhardt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77253 * Reinhardt * (+19) Created page with "I'm a set of things"
09:24:59 <esowiki> [[,,,]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77254&oldid=77245 * TwilightSparkle * (+95) Why did you remove that
10:03:10 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77255&oldid=77233 * TwilightSparkle * (+237)
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10:28:45 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77256&oldid=77255 * TwilightSparkle * (-5) /* While loop */ Ha!
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10:30:25 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77257&oldid=77256 * TwilightSparkle * (+10) /* While loop */
10:47:41 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77258&oldid=77257 * TwilightSparkle * (+86) /* Operations */
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12:13:14 <esowiki> [[User talk:Baidicoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77259&oldid=72837 * Osmarks * (+103)
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13:07:06 <esowiki> [[1+/Programs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77260&oldid=76637 * TwilightSparkle * (-777) /* CGCC */ The contest ended due to the development of MAWP.
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13:22:16 <b_jonas> Can you link me to a well-written description of the basics of byzantian generals problem and what we know about it? I was trying to read it from the ed. Iványi book, but that chapter is written in some crazy unreadable style so I can't make heads or tails of it.
13:26:17 * b_jonas looks at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_fault
13:32:03 <b_jonas> ok, that one has useful links
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13:53:59 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77261&oldid=77249 * Zero * (+62)
13:54:51 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77262&oldid=77261 * Zero * (+0)
13:55:48 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77263&oldid=77262 * Zero * (+24)
13:56:18 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77264&oldid=77263 * Zero * (+29)
13:56:52 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77265&oldid=77264 * Zero * (+0)
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14:30:16 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77266&oldid=77258 * TwilightSparkle * (+167) /* Operations */
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15:01:29 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77267&oldid=77265 * Zero * (+1465)
15:01:31 <esowiki> [[User talk:SunnyMoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77268&oldid=76996 * TwilightSparkle * (+125)
15:03:44 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77269&oldid=77267 * Zero * (+0)
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16:58:46 <arseniiv_> I think there is an affine space of dimension −1, contrary to linear spaces
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16:59:22 <b_jonas> what? dimension -1? what would that even mean? what kind of dimension?
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17:01:36 <arseniiv> I came to this while considering a function F from Set to Aff_K which maps a set X to a free affine space (over K) which has points {F(x), x ∈ X} as a maximal independent subset
17:02:09 <arseniiv> so F({x1, …, xn}) gives an (n−1)-dimensional affine space
17:03:45 <arseniiv> and we can take F(∅) and get an empty affine space, I think. And thus it should have dimension −1
17:04:17 <arseniiv> (F({∗}) gives us a single point as a space)
17:07:12 <arseniiv> we can obtain something in this vein obtaining an affine space one dimension lower as a level set of some linear form. Going from one-dimensional space, we get a point, and going from zero-dimensional one, we get an empty set
17:09:31 <arseniiv> we should have the same for projective spaces too. In which case it should look pretty natural
17:10:02 <esowiki> [[User talk:SunnyMoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77270&oldid=77268 * SunnyMoon * (+215) SCHOOL!
17:10:56 <arseniiv> BTW are there arguments for deg (zero polynomial) being −1 vs. −∞? Is it pretty natural to define it as −1? I saw −∞ a couple of times but but
17:12:19 <int-e> arseniiv: deg(0) = deg(x*0) = deg(x)+deg(0)
17:12:35 <int-e> doesn't work for -1, works reasonably well for -oo.
17:13:10 <int-e> you could also argue for +oo by counting roots ;)
17:13:39 <int-e> but maybe you want to preserve something like deg(p) != deg(q) ==> deg(p+q) = max(deg(p), deg(q)).
17:14:46 <int-e> otoh, p | q ==> deg(p) <= deg(q) doesn't work for -oo.
17:17:08 <arseniiv> regarding divisibility in N, I joke that 0 is infinite, as it should equal 2^∞ 3^∞ 5^∞ …
17:17:55 <rain1> what about the p-adics?
17:29:48 <int-e> divisibility is boring in fields
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18:05:46 <arseniiv> int-e: rain1: though one can consider p-adic *integers*, not all of them?
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18:26:20 <int-e> arseniiv: Hmm. Well, then all numbers not divisible by p are units (invertible), so it all boils down to the number of trailing zeros. But okay, it's more interesting than the field.
18:35:00 <esowiki> [[User talk:SunnyMoon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77271&oldid=77270 * SunnyMoon * (+90) OH NO!
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19:18:47 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77272&oldid=76623 * Palaiologos * (-13) update deadlinks
20:50:52 <shachaf> When you give an SMT solver an arbitrary boolean expression -- without any theories, just boolean variables -- what does it do with it?
20:51:45 <shachaf> Is there some sort of Tseytin transformation, or is it something else?
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21:06:35 <shachaf> SAT solvers presumably just take CNF and let other people worry about this.
21:06:47 <shachaf> But SMT solvers that I've seen tend to take arbitrary boolean expressions.
21:47:41 <spruit11> Dunno. In a SAT solver I think of unbound variable as existentially quantified. So possibly it's the same with SMT solvers?
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21:58:22 <shachaf> I don't mean quantification, that's the same (unless you have a solver with quantifiers).
21:58:37 <shachaf> I just mean boolean expressions like a && (b || !(c || d)) etc.
22:07:08 <b_jonas> shachaf: I think you can convert those to an ordinary CNF expression by introducing temporaries for all those subexpressions
22:07:40 <b_jonas> by temporaries I mean new variables that aren't in your expression but that will be in the CNF expression that you feed to the SAT solver
22:08:01 <b_jonas> but maybe I just don't understand how all this SAT-solver business works
22:09:06 <shachaf> Yes. I'm wondering whether this is what SMT solvers are actually doing.
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23:45:24 <Hooloovo0> ok bug report for the mornington crescent article: king's cross is in the syntax section but not the actual language specs
23:47:17 <fizzie> There's a platform 0 at the King's Cross station [*1], it's a true programmer's station. [*1] The National Rail part, not the Tube.
23:47:52 <Hooloovo0> oh, I see. it's not special, but it's a station. cool
00:03:53 <shachaf> Aha. At least Yices2 seems to do that exactly.
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03:25:23 <HackEso> ᛁᚿ//ᛁᚿ ᛋᚿᛅᚠᚠᛚᛚᛋ ᛁᚮᚴᚢᛚᛁᛋ ᚴᛦᛆᛏᛅᛦᛅᛘ ᚴᛅᛘ ᚦᛅᛚᛁᛒᛆᛏ ᚢᛘᛒᛦᛆ ᛋᚴᛆᛦᛏᛆᛦᛁᛋ ᛁᚢᛚᛁᛁ ᛁᚿᛏᛦᛆ ᚴᛆᛚᛅᚿᚦᛆᛋ ᚦᛅᛋᚴᛅᚿᚦᛅ, ᛆᚢᚦᛆᛋ ᚢᛁᛆᛏᚮᛦ, ᛏᛅ ᛏᛅᛦᛦᛅᛋᛏᛦᛅ ᚴᛅᚿᛏᛦᚢᛘ ᛆᛏᛏᛁᚿgᛅᛋ. ᚴᚮᚦ ᚠᛅᚴᛁ. ᛆᛦᚿᛅ ᛋᛆᚴᚿᚢᛋᛋᛅᛯ
03:25:27 <HackEso> 961) <kmc> i don't know what that is so i'm going to assume it's a flavor of pocky
03:25:52 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/wisdom/%20%E1%9B%81%E1%9A%BF
03:33:28 <HackEso> gazpacho//You like Gazpacho and I like Gaspacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
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04:22:29 <esowiki> [[1+/Programs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77273&oldid=77260 * TwilightSparkle * (+113)
04:23:08 <esowiki> [[1+/Programs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77274&oldid=77273 * TwilightSparkle * (-1) /* Others */
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06:31:58 <kmc> fizzie: do many National Rail stations have a platform 0?
06:35:28 <zzo38> Are you good at runes?
06:39:12 <esowiki> [[///]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77275&oldid=77246 * YamTokTpaFa * (+0) /* Other implementations */ typo
06:55:44 <esowiki> [[Datums]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77276 * BlueOkiris * (+5497) A data-oriented esoteric programming language with (basically) only 3 commands created by Dylan Turner aka BlueOkiris
06:57:26 <esowiki> [[User:BlueOkiris]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77277&oldid=49885 * BlueOkiris * (-26)
06:57:54 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77278&oldid=77200 * BlueOkiris * (+13) /* D */
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09:52:51 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77279&oldid=77269 * Zero * (+36)
09:53:23 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77280&oldid=77279 * Zero * (+2)
09:54:00 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77281&oldid=77280 * Zero * (+0)
10:26:01 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77282&oldid=77281 * Zero * (+871)
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10:27:36 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77283&oldid=77282 * Zero * (+0)
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11:34:59 <esowiki> [[!@$%^&*()+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77284&oldid=76910 * SunnyMoon * (+0) I realized that most Hello World programs print "Hello, World!" rather than "Hello, world!"
11:36:00 <esowiki> [[,,,]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77285&oldid=77254 * SunnyMoon * (+0) "Hello, World!", not "Hello, world!".
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12:20:35 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77286&oldid=77283 * Zero * (+1399)
12:32:24 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77287&oldid=77286 * Zero * (+830)
12:34:39 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77288&oldid=77287 * Zero * (+18)
12:52:38 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77289&oldid=77288 * Zero * (+603)
12:57:18 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77290&oldid=77289 * Zero * (+390)
13:06:31 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77291&oldid=77290 * Zero * (-22)
13:11:16 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77292&oldid=77291 * Zero * (+109)
13:13:16 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77293&oldid=77292 * Zero * (+28)
13:16:46 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77294&oldid=77293 * Zero * (-1)
13:21:27 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77295&oldid=77294 * Zero * (+322)
13:22:02 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77296&oldid=77295 * Zero * (-2)
13:22:28 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77297&oldid=77296 * Zero * (-44)
13:24:23 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77298&oldid=77297 * Zero * (+6)
13:30:32 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77299&oldid=77298 * Zero * (+283)
13:36:03 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77300&oldid=77299 * Zero * (-307)
13:46:04 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77301&oldid=77300 * Zero * (-284)
13:56:25 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77302&oldid=77301 * Zero * (+208)
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14:09:47 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77303&oldid=77302 * Zero * (-4433)
14:10:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:ByteByteFork]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77304 * Zero * (+4397) Created page with "== Possible evolution == Where to go from there? ===== Infinite memory ===== If we're going to make it look like The Matrix, the memory should be "conceptually" infinite..."
14:21:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77305&oldid=77304 * Zero * (+104)
14:23:15 <fizzie> kmc: I think there's about 10 of them around. I don't think any of them have started with a platform 0, they've all just added a platform and wanted to avoid renumbering. No-one's gone to -1 yet.
14:25:37 <fizzie> My primary source on platform-zero-ology has been https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTHOyTypNs8 though I knew about the King's Cross one before.
14:45:44 <Arcorann_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platform_0 <-- Wikipedia for reference
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14:50:08 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77306&oldid=77303 * Zero * (+8)
14:56:06 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77307&oldid=77306 * Zero * (+262)
15:16:11 <esowiki> [[ByteByteFork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77308&oldid=77307 * Zero * (+26)
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18:21:47 <esowiki> [[Datums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77310&oldid=77276 * BlueOkiris * (+491) /* Datums */
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18:46:57 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77311 * SunnyMoon * (+4084) I think everyone was waiting for this page!
18:48:20 <esowiki> [[User talk:SunnyMoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77312&oldid=77271 * SunnyMoon * (+113) Breaking news!
18:50:38 <imode> doing some interesting work in compiling string rewriting rules down to C, and later down to assembly in the hopes of writing a JITed interpreter.
18:55:40 <imode> hard to give the compiler something useful to chew on. forming a trie and then generating a giant nested switch/case.
18:58:16 <esowiki> [[Anyfix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77313&oldid=77182 * SunnyMoon * (-35) Page has been created!
18:59:13 <esowiki> [[Anyfix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77314&oldid=77313 * SunnyMoon * (-38) Jelly is already in this wiki too!
19:00:36 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77315&oldid=77278 * SunnyMoon * (+13) 05AB1E!
19:18:59 <rain1> that sounds peval-able in some ways
19:20:03 <b_jonas> imode: have you looked at https://snowballstem.org/algorithms/ ? that compiles string transformation rules to C
19:21:22 <imode> that's neat though, I need to give that a full read.
19:22:20 <imode> one of the things I want to do initially is write a brainfuck-to-rewrite-rules compiler. got the tape up and running (that can be dynamically resized). comparing with the tritium BF interpreter it's slower, but not _that_ much slower.
19:24:25 <imode> https://hastebin.com/lefogitefo.txt
19:25:20 <imode> the fact that tritium does JITing and optimizations whereas I'm using Go, treat tokens as fat multi-symbol strings and use a trie for rule matching makes me confused as to how they're even comparable.
19:30:06 <imode> a set of useful optimizations would be to 1. use symbolic integer tokens instead of strings, 2. make better use of built-ins (you can see `seek`, which just speeds up the rewriting process by removing the need to find the active rewriting site), 3. compile the trie down to some actual machine code that gives you back the required "yes this matched, here's the RHS" result.
19:30:30 <imode> then it'd be stupid fast. my goal is using it as a compiler target.
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03:10:51 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77316&oldid=77311 * TwilightSparkle * (+38) /* Cat program */
03:12:21 <esowiki> [[User talk:SunnyMoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77317&oldid=77312 * TwilightSparkle * (+422)
03:26:43 <esowiki> [[Datums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77318&oldid=77310 * BlueOkiris * (+0) /* Examples */
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03:40:40 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77319&oldid=77316 * TwilightSparkle * (+223) /* Truth-machine */ 05AB1E is my first golfing language.
03:42:16 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77320&oldid=77319 * TwilightSparkle * (-160) /* Cat program */
03:44:28 <zzo38> Are there text only Pokemon battle simulators in C?
03:44:44 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77321&oldid=77320 * TwilightSparkle * (-41) /* Truth-machine */
04:17:03 <esowiki> [[///]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77322&oldid=77275 * Quadril-Is * (+0) /./!/
04:28:25 <zzo38> I started something, but it isn't very much yet. It is intended to be a data set suitable for such purpose, and a C program to implement it, with a telnet interface, usable on local networks (no internet connection is needed).
04:44:54 <HackEso> 879) <Bike> I've heard the manga of Das Kapital is actually pretty good.
04:54:06 <esowiki> [[Entrance]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77323&oldid=73776 * Hakerh400 * (+2404) Add more examples
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04:56:21 <esowiki> [[Entrance]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77324&oldid=77323 * Hakerh400 * (+13)
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05:35:26 <esowiki> [[Entrance]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77325&oldid=77324 * Hakerh400 * (+1150) Add one more example
06:18:28 <esowiki> [[Entrance]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77326&oldid=77325 * Hakerh400 * (+882) Just two more examples
06:20:29 <esowiki> [[Entrance]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77327&oldid=77326 * Hakerh400 * (-1)
06:25:57 <int-e> imode: are you working with any pure string rewrite (Thue) programs without extensions ("builtins"?)
06:26:29 <int-e> The builtins kind of killed my interest.
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06:35:56 <imode> int-e: yeah. our use of built-ins is pretty small. I've only been making use of "seek", which takes a pattern and moves it next to another pattern.
06:36:41 <imode> which can be reasonably simulated by some intermediary tokens. it was just intended for cutting down on time spent moving symbols around.
06:37:17 <imode> built-ins can't be used until we have a suitable mock for them in actual rewrite rules. referential transparency and all that.
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09:31:08 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bananaapple * New user account
09:33:13 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77328&oldid=77252 * Bananaapple * (+248)
09:50:08 <esowiki> [[Filth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77329&oldid=62330 * Bananaapple * (+119)
09:59:28 <esowiki> [[Filth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77330&oldid=77329 * Bananaapple * (+75)
10:06:34 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77331&oldid=77183 * Orisphera * (+97) /* General Ideas */
10:07:48 <esowiki> [[User:Bananaapple]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77332 * Bananaapple * (+126) Created page with "Inb4 Real users don't have user pages. Look at my gitlab for my nim esolang stuff: https://gitgud.io/bananaapple/esolangs-nim"
10:17:59 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77333&oldid=77321 * SunnyMoon * (+0) Implicit input is GREAT!
10:20:48 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77334&oldid=77333 * SunnyMoon * (+0) I think linefeeds are prohibited in truth-machines.
10:31:44 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77335&oldid=77334 * SunnyMoon * (-1) >:-(
10:33:13 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77336&oldid=77335 * SunnyMoon * (+3) AHH THE DISSATISFACTION
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10:41:51 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77337&oldid=77336 * SunnyMoon * (+104) Implicit input!
10:50:17 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77338&oldid=77337 * SunnyMoon * (+0) Fibonacci was a person.
10:55:07 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77339&oldid=77191 * SunnyMoon * (+34) 05AB1E!
10:56:47 <esowiki> [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77340&oldid=76959 * SunnyMoon * (+21) 05AB1E!
10:59:22 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77341&oldid=77159 * SunnyMoon * (+24) 05AB1E!
10:59:42 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77342&oldid=77341 * SunnyMoon * (+1) OH NOES!
11:00:09 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77343&oldid=77342 * SunnyMoon * (+0) AAAAH!!!!!
11:01:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77344&oldid=77066 * SunnyMoon * (+140) Redirection proposal.
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12:43:50 <esowiki> [[1argasm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77345&oldid=72983 * Zero * (+1)
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14:16:24 <rain1> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supergolden_ratio
15:04:27 <esowiki> [[User:SunnyMoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77346&oldid=77181 * SunnyMoon * (+216) Game dev update.
15:05:18 <esowiki> [[User:SunnyMoon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77347&oldid=77346 * SunnyMoon * (+0) Oop
15:11:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:05AB1E]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77348 * SunnyMoon * (+173) Double sources?
15:14:01 <esowiki> [[Entrance]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77349&oldid=77327 * Hakerh400 * (+1)
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17:19:31 <bananaapple> Sup guys, I wrote my first interpreter today ^^ for Filth
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17:42:26 <rain1> well done bananaappel
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20:05:10 <zzo38> What is it called if you aim one attack and then fire a different attack instead?
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20:13:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: as in deliberately because the first attack has an easier interface to aim and it keeps the aim as you switch to the second attack?
20:14:23 <b_jonas> like aiming with a zoom sniper and then shooting a rocket exactly at the same point?
20:24:52 <zzo38> No. I mean when the second attack does not benefit at all from the first attack's aim.
20:34:09 <zzo38> GURPS doesn't mention aim of different attacks benefiting each other, although I suppose in some cases it might make sense, such as if you have a laser gun with two modes, or if you have two different kind of breath attacks, etc.
20:42:21 <zzo38> That is what I did. I started by aiming a magic staff which shoots fire balls (there was only one charge left), and next turn used a psychic mind blast instead, which does not benefit from the aim at all. It did end up helping.
20:55:00 <zzo38> Next thing to do is to write some mark on some clothing for a otyugh, which is difficult due to not having any suitable clothing.
20:58:43 <b_jonas> zzo38: so why did you do that? to distract the enemies by making them think you'll do a different attack so they can't react well?
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23:24:24 <spruit11> Neat: https://twitter.com/StefanSzeider/status/1302868135633211392?s=20
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00:29:52 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77350&oldid=77338 * JonoCode9374 * (-21)
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04:21:22 <int-e> spruit11: so... glucose is the only improvement, everything else made matters worse ;)
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08:27:20 <arseniiv> I’m disposing of my old C++, HTML, CSS, JS, Delphi and something books putting them away to do something later. Shame they almost surely aren’t interesting to anyone for some time, as there are internet resources aplenty
08:28:12 <arseniiv> and C++ ones weren’t even about any of the modern language standards
08:28:47 <arseniiv> even at their printing dates :(
08:33:00 <arseniiv> maybe their authors thought the differences are minor and mainly surface-level, or maybe those were the times so even they weren’t knowledgeable enough. There wasn’t much choice in bookstores on really interesting topics, and I was wise to cease going there to search something programming-related long ago. But not too long ago to have no dead weight on the shelf
08:46:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77352&oldid=77344 * Keymaker * (+205) Reply.
08:48:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77353&oldid=77352 * Keymaker * (+238) Another reply.
08:52:24 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yea, there are a lot of bad programming books that teach ancient bad practices
08:52:57 <b_jonas> you can't really do anything with them unless you need a doorstopper
08:54:05 <int-e> kindling for a fire
08:54:49 <arseniiv> b_jonas: BTW have it ended well for that monitor with sticky buttons?
08:54:49 <int-e> Hmm. Fahrenheit 451
08:55:47 <b_jonas> arseniiv: probably yes. on thursday and friday it seemed to be working fine. it will need a few more days of testing, but right now I'm a bit ill so I'm working from home, so I can't tell for sure yet
08:56:12 <arseniiv> <int-e> kindling for a fire => they really picked an interesting word to name their ebook readers, yeah
08:57:05 <b_jonas> I would like to work in the office, and would be if this was last year
08:57:42 <b_jonas> but right now both my boss and my supervisor told me very clearly that we are not to work in while we are ill
08:57:51 <b_jonas> so either I can work from home, or not at all
08:58:00 <arseniiv> maybe that’s for the best if it’s quiet at home
08:58:55 <b_jonas> this is not a too tenable position, if I always have to work from home when I'm a bit ill, then I miss too much in the office, but there's not much I can do now
08:59:57 <arseniiv> they say a cold is not as severe if one’s moving not too much and can be in comfort temperature-wise
09:00:14 <b_jonas> anyway, I'll be afk for a bit, I actually have to run into the office now because I left the mouse in there. I knew I had to bring the mouse, but somehow messed it up when I packed the notebook. probably concentrated on making sure that I bring the HDMI cable.
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09:00:49 <arseniiv> though for something flu-like that would be more of a necessity, to avoid complications like bacteria etc
09:01:09 <int-e> arseniiv: Well, Google used "Nexus" for their android device brand, which is a very interesting literary reference. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_Androids_Dream_of_Electric_Sheep%3F
09:01:21 <b_jonas> also I'm going to buy a new non-work computer for home, I'll tell about it later
09:01:45 <b_jonas> I'm both excited and a bit terrified because now I know approximately how much it will cost, even though the order isn't finalized yet
09:02:26 <arseniiv> b_jonas: wish you luck for all of that combined!
09:03:47 <arseniiv> int-e: oh, I didn’t remember they were called Nexus there
09:08:25 <arseniiv> s/remember/know/; I even didn’t watch the movie adaptation but heard of all that
09:10:02 <int-e> I only discovered this a few years ago when reading the novel.
09:42:29 <rain1> there exists a universal turing machine
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09:44:01 <rain1> assume we can decide halting with a turing machine, then define Lie(T) = if(Halts(T)) { loop(); } else { return; }
09:44:18 <arseniiv> (I couldn’t contain myself; this wasn’t intended to look snarky so if it ended up being such, sorry)
09:44:21 <Taneb> <b_jonas> arseniiv: yea, there are a lot of bad programming books that teach ancient bad practices <--- I remember when I was first learning C from a textbook my dad used at uni
09:44:24 <rain1> How do we get a contradiction again? Halts(Lie(Lie(Lie(...))) ??
09:44:37 <rain1> maybe I need to define Lie(T) = if(Halts(T(T))) { loop(); } else { return; }
09:44:48 <Taneb> It gave a Hello World relying on very architecture-specific undefined behaviour
09:45:18 <rain1> then we can case on Halts(Lie(Lie)): if it does it doesn't if it doesn't it does
09:45:45 <rain1> but we can recursively enumerate the turing machines that do halt
09:46:42 <rain1> Now suppose there is a turing machine that determines if a turing machine that takes an input halts on all of its inputs
09:47:09 <rain1> AlwaysHalts(TM) = TM(0) halts and TM(1) halts and etc..
09:47:26 <rain1> How can we show that AlwaysHalts is stronger that Halts?
09:48:02 <rain1> certainly AlwaysHalts lets us implement halts, just make a turing machine that drops its input and executes a TM that takes no input
09:49:09 <rain1> We can enumerate all halting TMs, so we can use the universal TM with that to construct a turing machine with input n that executes the n'th turing machine that halts I think? And AlwaysHalts is true of this
09:50:06 <arseniiv> hm it really does seem to be stronger, as there are infinitely many inputs and we can’t prove a TM halts for all of them in finite time…
09:50:06 <rain1> it makes sense that Halts wouldn't be able to answer this question, since if you wanted to tweak it to have no input you could maybe have it execute every halting TM in sequence
09:50:12 <rain1> but that wouldn't halt even though every single TM would halt
09:50:16 <rain1> but this isn't a proof
09:50:44 <rain1> Can we do another simple Liar type construction?
09:51:07 <cpressey> <rain1> How can we show that AlwaysHalts is stronger that Halts? <-- show that AlwaysHalts is only recursively enumerable *even if* you have an oracle that answers Halts for you
09:52:07 <cpressey> Something like Liar but that calls the oracle might work
09:52:37 <arseniiv> so one needs to show that its complement is not enumerable hm
09:53:59 <rain1> the compliment would be TMs with one input that don't halt for at least once input (right?)
09:55:26 <rain1> I feel like we could enumerate these: we would loop over n and make sure the n'th turing machine doesn't halt. So this language is the union of NthLoops(0) u NthLoops(1) u ...
09:55:45 <int-e> fungot: do you know any compliments?
09:55:45 <fungot> int-e: in drscheme random works for me... i am not very good
09:55:48 <arseniiv> <rain1> the compliment would be TMs with one input that don't halt for at least once input (right?) => yep
09:57:17 <fungot> arseniiv: okay, now what would happen
09:59:41 <arseniiv> rain1: but again we wouldn’t get the negative answer is finite time?
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10:08:32 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77354&oldid=77328 * DGCK81LNN * (+271)
10:08:59 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77355&oldid=75742 * DGCK81LNN * (+280) /* Simple game ("Less or More") */ Added another version I created
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10:19:32 <esowiki> [[User:DGCK81LNN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77357&oldid=77356 * DGCK81LNN * (+0)
10:28:14 <esowiki> [[User:DGCK81LNN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77358&oldid=77357 * DGCK81LNN * (+594)
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11:05:28 <esowiki> [[User talk:SunnyMoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77359&oldid=77351 * SunnyMoon * (+161) Answer alert!
11:33:49 <rain1> i don't really get this
11:34:01 <rain1> i willl try some scribbling later
11:58:03 <esowiki> [[Truth machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77360 * SunnyMoon * (+27) Redirection.
11:59:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77361&oldid=77353 * SunnyMoon * (+118) Done!
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14:42:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77362&oldid=77354 * Supyovalk * (+153) /* Introductions */
14:43:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77363&oldid=77362 * Supyovalk * (+90)
14:44:22 <esowiki> [[Binary to unary conversion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77364&oldid=74696 * Supyovalk * (+218) /* Examples in programming languages */
14:45:49 <esowiki> [[T]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77365 * Lebster * (+110) Created page with "T is a work-in-progress esolang being created by [[user:Lebster]]. The project started in early september 2020"
14:46:30 <esowiki> [[User:Lebster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77366&oldid=75987 * Lebster * (+110) /* Created Languages */
14:46:32 <esowiki> [[Binary to unary conversion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77367&oldid=77364 * Supyovalk * (-35) /* Phyton 3.0 - removed useless print lines*/
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16:26:07 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77368&oldid=77355 * DGCK81LNN * (-1) /* Simple game ("Less or More") */
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18:19:34 <rain1> any updates on turing machines?
18:24:12 <arseniiv> I woke up earlier to receive a midi keyboard I ordered and it arrived only just a twenty minutes ago :D
18:24:51 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Baguette * New user account
18:25:21 <arseniiv> I think I’ll read a bit of webfiction, go sleeping and only tomorrow unpack this thing and check if everything’s alright
18:25:32 <rain1> > A machine with an oracle for the halting problem can determine whether particular Turing machines will halt on particular inputs, but they cannot determine, in general, whether machines equivalent to themselves will halt
18:25:35 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:129: error: <hint>:1:129: error: parse error on input ‘,’
18:25:36 <rain1> this is understable
18:25:44 <rain1> have a good night!
18:27:06 <arseniiv> rain1: yeah, I have a fluttering mood a couple of days now, I hope I’ll restart making some music, maybe I’ll be able to explore microtonality (though the 12edo keyboard is not as optimal, it’s still way better than nothing!)
18:27:53 <arseniiv> thanks, have a good night also when you’ll go to sleep!
18:28:19 <arseniiv> hopefully there would be absolutely no defects
18:28:41 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77369&oldid=77363 * Baguette * (+392) /* Introductions */
18:28:47 <arseniiv> I’m a bit anxious when it comes to buying things of this scale
18:29:05 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77370&oldid=77369 * Baguette * (+1) /* Introductions */
18:51:22 <rain1> https://twitter.com/apu_yokai/status/1303308968521940994
18:51:28 <rain1> you can make nand gates out of physical linkages
18:54:03 <kmc> that reminds me, i got an ad for this toy the other day https://www.turingtumble.com/
18:55:37 <hendursaga> kmc: I remember when they were doing the Kickstarter for that, I believe someone came up with a simulator not long after
18:56:42 <arseniiv> <rain1> you can make nand gates out of physical linkages => wow, and relatively simple!
18:57:12 <rain1> omg thats so awesom
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19:08:42 <arseniiv> reminds a bit of Turing trains or what were they called
19:31:02 <esowiki> [[SCREAMCODE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77371 * Baguette * (+2137) Create the SCREAMCODE page
19:32:42 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77372&oldid=76864 * Baguette * (+75) /* Brainfuck derivatives */
19:37:09 <esowiki> [[User:Baguette]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77373 * Baguette * (+84) Created page with "I'm an 18-year-old Computer Science student, and the loser that made [[SCREAMCODE]]."
19:40:10 <rain1> we can talk about recognition and acceptance of languages
19:44:18 <esowiki> [[SCREAMCODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77374&oldid=77371 * Baguette * (+155)
19:59:20 <esowiki> [[SCREAMCODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77375&oldid=77374 * Baguette * (+34) Specify tape size
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20:01:27 <imode> that linkage thing is hella neat.
20:01:52 <imode> http://www.cr31.co.uk/stagecast/trains/tt0_intro.html <-- the turing trains thing.
20:02:52 <b_jonas> arseniiv: Openttd, and I was just thinking of it because I think there's some unexplored eso-potential for building the same logic circuits in a less efficient way
20:06:03 <esowiki> [[User talk:Baguette]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77376 * Baguette * (+50) Created page with "If you want, you can email me at baguette@SDF.ORG."
20:12:12 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77377&oldid=77315 * Baguette * (+17) /* S */
20:12:46 <esowiki> [[SCREAMCODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77378&oldid=77375 * Baguette * (+28)
20:17:57 <fizzie> I did some crude OpenTTD logic gates back some 15 years ago, and probably talked about them here.
20:19:59 <b_jonas> fizzie: is that before or after path-based signals?
20:21:12 <fizzie> Right on the dot, more or less. NPF ("New Pathfinding") was in the trunk, but not in any release. It did rely on that.
20:21:20 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/2005-10-21-ttd-logic if you're interested.
20:21:55 <fizzie> Actually, maybe it predates path signals and just relies on pre-signals.
20:22:27 <b_jonas> oh, pre-signals are much older, they come from ttdpatch
20:22:40 <b_jonas> and most logic relies on pre-signals or path-based signals
20:22:50 <b_jonas> most of it relies on at least some pre-signals
20:23:07 <b_jonas> even if you use path signals, pre-signals are needed for some parts of the logic
20:23:51 <b_jonas> but I admit there's still a lot that I don't understand about openttd logic
20:24:13 <fizzie> "The path signals follow a different concept and were first introduced with OpenTTD version 0.7." Okay, it's before that, because the writeup mentions 0.4.0.1 as the most recent release.
20:24:22 <b_jonas> mostly because all the tutorials and coop savegames have horribly large complicated examples, not small minimal constructions to demonstrate one thing and only tha
20:26:09 <b_jonas> "The image is rather big: a 1450x708px PNG" ah yes, that is old.
20:27:02 <fizzie> I don't know if it really counted as that big any more, TBH.
20:28:34 <b_jonas> so far the openttd games that I play don't incorporate any specific logic, that is, there are signals to make trains run smoothly, but no specific tracks and signals and trains just for logic, not even the simple priority crossing
20:29:18 <b_jonas> if I manage to understand how logic works, I'll probably add eso-logic that makes the trains less efficient in effect, but more fun to watch
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21:17:48 <esowiki> [[Godelfish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77379 * Salpynx * (+24) redirect from ascii
21:17:52 <oshaboy> There is an entire channel for esolangs?
21:18:06 <oshaboy> I have actually been working on an esolang as a dare
21:18:15 <oshaboy> A RISC assembly with only 8 bit instructions
21:18:23 <oshaboy> not 8 bit opcodes like the 6502
21:18:29 <imode> it gets weirder from here.
21:18:53 <oshaboy> I know you can modify brainfuck to RISC and get 4 bit instructions
21:19:00 <oshaboy> It's actually not really an esolang
21:19:16 <oshaboy> I put quite a bit of effort to cram the most useful stuff into 256 instructions
21:19:43 <oshaboy> Maybe I should try making one with a 6 bit instruction width
21:19:50 <oshaboy> So all programs will be in base 64
21:21:01 <HackEso> oshaboy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
21:21:16 <b_jonas> yes, there's an entire channel. but it doesn't always stay on topic.
21:21:52 <oshaboy> https://docs.google.com/document/d/13043UrFZGNRNyHOM0GJprrVCFdFIiRqx05xet2FEQSM/edit?usp=sharing
21:22:04 <oshaboy> I just made some room for 7 more instructions
21:22:11 <oshaboy> What do you think I should add?
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21:48:54 <esowiki> [[SCREAMCODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77380&oldid=77378 * Baguette * (+20)
21:53:35 <esowiki> [[SCREAMCODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77381&oldid=77380 * Baguette * (+28)
21:57:33 <esowiki> [[SCREAMCODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77382&oldid=77381 * Baguette * (-15)
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21:59:14 <b_jonas> oshaboy: that seems like it only has a very inefficient way to load an immediate to a register. you need like six instructions for it, unless I'm missing something.
22:00:25 <b_jonas> oshaboy: also I don't understand how you have a "SUB AX,BY" macro that expands to "SUB X,Y" when there doesn't seem to be an instruction or macro "SUB X,Y"
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22:07:15 <b_jonas> oshaboy: have you considered restricting some of those instructions in favor of being able to load an immediate byte more efficiently, since that's useful and you only have indirect jumps; or cheating by adding an instruction that loads from the immediate byte after the instruction and skips that byte; or at least cheating with PC-relative addresses like in PDP-8?
22:08:58 <moony> b_jonas: Talked with them about it earlier
22:09:10 <b_jonas> oshaboy: also I don't understand how jumps farther than 128 bytes work, since all the branch instructions seem to have only short offsets
22:09:11 <moony> they're strongly opposed to immediates of any form for some reason.
22:09:45 <b_jonas> and since the code doesn't seem very compact, you will need a lot of far jumps
22:09:58 <b_jonas> are you supposed to set up a jump ladder like once every 120 bytes?
22:10:15 <b_jonas> also have you written any example programs and interpreter?
22:10:17 <shachaf> i,i SUB AX,BY = AB SUB X,Y
22:10:39 <moony> iirc they've done neither?
22:10:56 <b_jonas> having all of LDIFF, SUBF, and FLIPF seems rather redundant
22:20:02 <b_jonas> moony: I guess I just don't know what counts as a "RISC" here. if I really wanted to build something low-level with 8-bit opcodes, I'd make it full cisc.
22:20:30 <b_jonas> and I'm not sure how much you need to be able to call it "RISC", so I can't give good advice.
22:21:40 <oshaboy> b_jonas: Yes, loading immidiates is quite inefficient, but I doubt there is a better way
22:22:01 <oshaboy> b_jonas: the psuedo ops are based on an older instruction set, I didn't update them
22:23:27 <oshaboy> b_jonas: There is LONGJUMP
22:25:17 <oshaboy> Well if I have a loader of the next byte it isn't really an 8 bit instruction, is it
22:26:07 <oshaboy> Also how often do you need an immediate that requires more than 3 bits set?
22:26:18 <b_jonas> oshaboy: often, if that's how you can short jump[
22:27:29 <oshaboy> but you can also store an immiditi you use often in memory
22:27:44 <b_jonas> oshaboy: how do you load it though? you have to load the address first
22:28:28 <oshaboy> Maybe I will add an unconditional skip so you can sneak bytes into the code
22:31:30 <oshaboy> So if you do xor x,x; set; putf x,1; memory a,x; skip; byte 0xaa;
22:32:26 <oshaboy> I don't know, I think it is easier to just do xor a,a; set; putf a,1; putf a,3; putf a,5; putf a,7
22:32:39 <b_jonas> oshaboy: that's hardly an improvement, you can already load anything with just five or six instructions I think
22:33:27 <oshaboy> I think bit sets are enough
22:33:58 <oshaboy> requires 2 clock cycles on a theoretical processor
22:34:54 <oshaboy> Usually on RISC the only commands that require more than 1 cycle are memory and branch instructions
22:35:01 <oshaboy> also this is kind of an esolang anyway
22:35:12 <oshaboy> so weird implementation is kind of a given
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22:41:05 <imode> look at y'all talking about processor cycles and stuff that takes nanoseconds. I'm jelly.
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22:47:53 <moony> b_jonas: looking at their instruction set, they have a fatal flaw with the whole "RISC" thing anyways:
22:48:12 <moony> it's more complex to implement than a proper RISC
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22:56:33 <zzo38> Is there a version of the "Fixed" fonts with DEC encodings and other encodings?
22:58:25 <zzo38> (With what I have, some characters will not work.)
22:58:27 <moony> zzo38: monospace font?
22:59:24 <zzo38> Yes, and specifically bitmap font too
23:00:09 <moony> zzo38: which encodings? DEC has multiple
23:01:32 <moony> i mean, unicode fonts should support most things...?
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23:02:39 <moony> fun, Unicode is missing some from DEC Technical
23:02:40 <zzo38> Well, they don't. For one thing, the DEC Technical character set is not supported.
23:03:08 <moony> the problem characters are 31 through 37, rest have unicode equivs
23:03:52 <moony> those in particular
23:04:03 <moony> you could solve by making your own font data in the private use area
23:04:16 <moony> and having some translation method
23:04:28 <zzo38> Yes, although I do not want a Unicode encoded font, but rather a font encoded using the DEC encoding
23:05:06 <moony> I don't know if anything even would support such a font
23:05:12 <moony> what's the usecase?
23:05:16 <moony> and on what software?
23:05:28 <zzo38> (Conversion between Unicode and other encodings is not always lossless anyways)
23:05:35 <zzo38> Well, to make a better terminal emulator.
23:05:57 <moony> I think you might need to develop the font yourself
23:06:25 <moony> best way to do that would be to render unicode characters and make good use of the private use area, imo
23:06:34 <zzo38> (and the character properties between Unicode and other character sets do not always match, either)
23:07:35 <moony> PUA can have whatever properties you want
23:08:54 <zzo38> How can you tell programs to use them though? As far as I know, I have not seen any such thing.
23:09:15 <moony> zzo38: Your terminal emulator is presumably the only thing that'd use it, internally, to make font handling easier
23:09:49 <moony> would let you use an existing font renderer
23:11:38 <zzo38> X has font rendering
23:12:25 <moony> X font rendering probably shouldn't be used. It's effectively deprecated, like the rest of X that's not just frame buffers
23:12:54 <shachaf> Don't people still use Xft?
23:13:12 <moony> Pretty much everything uses freetype and other renderers directly in a framebuffer
23:13:43 <zzo38> Well, I prefer to use bitmap fonts instead, and I think the X font rendering is suitable
23:14:16 <moony> if you want bitmap, implement it yourself, it's very simple for monospace. Xft is on it's last legs.
23:14:32 <moony> even then freetype supports bitmap
23:14:39 <zzo38> I don't mean Xft; I mean the X core font rendering
23:15:36 <moony> X core font rendering is extremely legacy
23:16:52 <zzo38> That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it.
23:17:24 <moony> if something is included with distributions solely for compatibility reasons, you probably shouldn't use it
23:17:36 <moony> you'd be writing modern legacy software
23:19:06 <moony> it's been legacy since 2000
23:19:21 <moony> and probably a bit earlier than that
23:20:01 <moony> it's better for future compatibility to not depend on old X11 features
23:20:52 <moony> Currently, Wayland is starting to make it's way into being the default windowing environment for some distributions
23:21:11 <shachaf> Wayland just seems worse than X.
23:21:30 <shachaf> I sure hope people don't settle on it.
23:22:32 <zzo38> I still use X and do not want to use Wayland. Would there be a way to display Wayland programs inside of a X window though (each one in its own window)?
23:22:51 <moony> Programs will likely support both for a long time
23:23:10 <moony> most people use wrappers for handling window initialization/framebuffers so their stuff works on all platforms
23:24:15 <shachaf> I wrote Xlib code and it was a little clunky but overall it worked OK.
23:24:27 <shachaf> Then I tried to port my thing to Wayland and it was so unpleasant I just gave up.
23:24:53 <moony> as I use rust, I'm usually using Winit or a similar wrapper that handles the details for me. For C/C++ there's SDL2
23:26:22 <shachaf> SDL is OK until it doesn't do something you want.
23:26:44 <shachaf> But if a platform API is good, it should be usable directly.
23:26:55 <shachaf> Wayland's excuse "everyone just uses GTK anyway" is ridiculous.
23:27:09 <shachaf> (The excuse for only doing client-side decorations.)
23:27:39 <zzo38> I sometimes use SDL1, for some things.
23:28:07 <zzo38> I don't like GTK much though; I like some of the features of Xaw, which newer libraries don't do
23:28:37 <moony> shachaf: xdg-decoration was added for this. Either way I do agree Wayland isn't ideal
23:28:40 <zzo38> And it does not seem to be able to configure GTK to work like Xaw
23:28:45 <moony> but it's also best to not depend on old X11 features
23:29:08 <moony> X core font in zzo38's case
23:30:35 <moony> zzo38: per Xorg's info on fonts: `While X.Org continues to maintain the core fonts system, client software authors are encouraged to switch to Xft as soon as possible.`
23:30:52 <moony> so it's either xft, or using freetype/etc like most of the ecosystem
23:31:40 <zzo38> moony: Yes, I know that, and I don't want to use that. I specifically want to use non-Unicode bitmap fonts.
23:32:23 <shachaf> Too bad text rendering is incredibly complicated.
23:32:30 <moony> you can use bitmap fonts though. And refusing to use Unicode will get you into a host of issues, tbh
23:32:48 <moony> this is the kind of situation private use areas were allocated for
23:33:06 <moony> if you need to be able to redefine font data though, which I believe some terminals can do
23:33:13 <moony> you'd be better off drawing the font yourself
23:33:48 <zzo38> Yes, and a different set of issues than refusing to use stuff other than Unicode. It depends on the application. Unicode is helpful for displaying web pages, for one thing. For many things it just gets in the way though.
23:34:55 <zzo38> (PUA only partially helps. It causes its own set of problems.)
23:35:31 <zzo38> (And, of course, for some thing is very good idea to avoid homoglyph attacks.)
23:37:07 <moony> if my goal was high compat with DEC terminals, i'd implement the font rendering myself, and store character data as u16s with a UTF-8 mapping available to convert it as needed
23:37:47 <moony> (which, on that note, a high compat terminal is in my interest, working on VAX emulation and all)
23:40:33 <zzo38> One problem with using Unicode for terminal emulation is the need for character property tables. (I designed my own encoding for terminal emulation (and not for anything else; it is for one use only) that gets rid of the need for character property tables.)
23:40:37 <zzo38> What terminals does VAX use?
23:41:26 <moony> for system consoles, it's a custom terminal, iirc VAX-11/780's is a PDP-11/terminal hybrid that handles the whole bootstrap process alongside being a way to interface with the machine
23:42:26 <zzo38> I did think is VT, being DEC VAX, but that doesn't tell me which one. Also, is there a document for the terminal codes for the system consoles?
23:43:07 <moony> System consoles have an entirely custom, machine dependent bus. It's not worth the time trying to emulate them separately from the VAX itself
23:43:19 <moony> as for the VTs used: all of them. It's a super-mini, you can hook whatever to it
23:44:13 <b_jonas> fungot, where did you hide the body?
23:44:13 <fungot> b_jonas: anything else i could do it in bf: fnord/ fnord/ fr-wiki-data and i just asked
23:44:30 * moony grabs 780 maint handbook real quick
23:45:04 <zzo38> Yes, I expected as much, but which were common (or were all DEC terminals common)? Even if it is not worth trying to emulate the system consoles separately from the VAX itself, still would be helpful to know what the codes are, both to write software for VAX and just being curious to compare them.
23:45:06 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
23:45:18 <fungot> Selected style: ukparl (UK Parliament debates from brexit referendum to late 2018)
23:45:39 <moony> codes are the same as a normal VT system. VT220, VT340, etc, were all common. Just look at the most common VTs and you'll know the most common for use with VAX :P
23:47:09 <zzo38> O, so they are the same codes, even if it is a custom terminal.
23:47:09 <moony> VAX-11/780's system console is connected by a 30 pin cable to a card in the cabinet, for example. No point in emulating that
23:48:14 <zzo38> Yes, there probably is no point emulating VAX system console except for emulating VAX itself.
23:48:50 <moony> especially as the 780 system console basically has direct access to the ucode pathways, so it'd be abstracted away in any sane emulator
23:52:25 <moony> I've looked into implementing a ucode level 780 emulator and it looks like quite a large task, and it'd have terrible performance
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00:27:59 <spruit11> 'Do something with format specifiers' they told. 'It'll be fun they' they told me.
00:42:11 <imode> I don't see how rule-based programming can be anywhere as fast as imperative programming. the hot loop of searching for which rule to match alone is going to take more time than a single instruction.
00:44:31 <zzo38> Depending on the programming language, it might be possible to make it fast after the program has been compiled.
00:46:47 <imode> I don't see how. my base case is rewrite rules over strings. the matcher logic for a given ruleset can be compiled down to a trie or a DFA, and that can be turned into native code, but in my tests, that's still too slow.
00:48:24 <zzo38> Well, I just made the suggestion.
00:50:09 <imode> yeah... it'd thrash the branch predictor.
00:59:02 <moony> if you're lucky and there's some pattern to it, you might be able to get a Zen (AMD Ryzen/Threadripper/EPYC lines) CPU to cooperate with the branches, but I think that's really it
01:06:41 <spruit11> That's just correct. Usually, rule-based languages or rewriters are slower than imperative programming. But they're still useful.
01:07:53 <spruit11> With Herculean effort you can sometimes compile programs down to their imperative counterpart, though. But usually not.
01:13:33 <imode> doubtful that it's possible with string rewriting.
01:15:01 <spruit11> Depends on the rules and what you think is the imperative counterpart to those rules. But in general, impossible.
01:18:21 <imode> it's sad because there's so many useful things about the paradigm. your state is just the current "fact store" (the string in the case of string rewriting) and the rules that are run against the fact store. how in the hell is prolog performant.
01:22:04 <spruit11> Haskell can do it sometimes. Something like: Take 'fac', analyze it as better strict, compile the matches to conditions, translate the recursion to a loop. Presto, same microcode as the C equivalent.
01:23:15 <spruit11> But that's a whole lot of compiler voodoo. I guess something like 40 manyears to arrive in that state.
01:24:06 <spruit11> The same effort as writing a compiler for a lazy functional language and then attach a normal C compiler with optimizations to it.
01:25:54 <imode> rule based programming is just full of conditions, though. the core loop is just if/else if/else if/else if/else if/else if/... unless you have a reasonable way of shortcutting that linear search.
01:26:53 <imode> even if you compiled that down to assembly, the basis would just be a bunch of branches.
01:30:52 <spruit11> There's a lot of additional voodoo in term rewriters to try and compile most of that out. Mostly -whatsitscalled- deforestation. Just preven intermediate things you match against from ever existing by clever fusion rules.
01:42:40 <imode> hm, I should look into that.
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02:58:04 <spruit11> egelbot: format "{} {}" "hello" "world"
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03:30:23 <spruit11> egelbot: format "{} {:#06x}" "a number" 42
03:47:51 <spruit11> 'Verazol, Parter of Currents' was leaked. Looks interesting.
04:58:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Emoji]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77383 * Tetrapyronia * (+235) Created page with "Do the commands that take input pop the items they use? Ex. Does (add top 2) on the stack (1,2) turn the stack into (1,2,3) or (3)? ~~~~"
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08:01:03 <rain1> Theorem. There are Turing computable partial functions that have no extension to a total Turing computable function. In particular, the partial function f defined so that f(n) = m if and only if the Turing machine with index n halts on input 0 with output m has no extension to a total computable function.
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08:55:53 <int-e> . o O ( M(T) := if f(T(T)) = 1 then 0 else 1 )
09:09:04 <rain1> so f is just eval([N(0)])
09:09:22 <rain1> M is taking in T and evaling [T(T)(0)] ?
09:09:28 <rain1> and not'ing its result
09:14:12 <int-e> Since f is passing an argument, I guess M should take two arguments, M(T,x) = if f([\x. `T`(`T`,x)]) = 1 then 0 else 1 )
09:14:35 <int-e> And as usual there's a substitution step involved.
09:14:45 <int-e> (as usual in those diagonalization constructions)
09:14:59 <rain1> oh and what properties is this M going to have?
09:15:58 <int-e> Then you look at f([\x. M([M],x)]).
09:16:53 <int-e> Meh, my notation isn't good enough.
09:18:11 <rain1> notationally, this stuff can be pretty awkward
09:18:12 <int-e> But the point is that M is supposed to reconstruct \x. M([M],x) from [M].
09:18:21 <rain1> maybe quasiquotes like in lisp would be good
09:18:23 <int-e> And pass the result to f.
09:19:12 <int-e> so that f([\x. M([M],x)]) = 1 <--> f([\x. M([M],x)]) = 0
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11:30:37 <rain1> f(x) is defined for some values and the turing machine does not halt so it is not defined for other values
11:30:58 <rain1> an extension is a function that matches it on defined values, and may terminate and produce values on f's undefineds
11:31:12 <rain1> i was thinking how nice it would be to assign types to turing machise
11:31:20 <rain1> just like <Ty> ::= N | <Ty> -> <Ty>
11:32:40 <rain1> but you can't really do this
11:33:04 <rain1> the liar program essentially depends on you putting T(T(T(T(...))) basically an infinite type/non well founded type
11:33:58 <rain1> intuitive concepts are matched up with formal things on the arithmetic heierearchy
11:34:28 <rain1> decidable set: t.m. halts with 1 if element is in the set, 0 if element is not in the set -- this is a Delta_0^1 set
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11:34:48 <rain1> semidecidable set: t.m. halts with 1 if element is in the set, diverges if not -- this is a Sigma_0^1 set
11:35:32 <rain1> the set of all total computable functions: every element of this set is a t.m. that halts on all inputs - this is suppose to be Pi_2
11:35:46 <rain1> I don't really know why yet
11:35:53 <rain1> I need to study posts theorem
11:36:05 <rain1> and I need to know about turing jumps (?)
11:48:03 <kritixilithos> rain1: thanks for the definition. curious, what resources are you using to learn about this?
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12:28:35 <rain1> i need a better resource
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13:11:27 <rain1> I think the halting problem proof can be done at any level
13:11:33 <rain1> so lets call normal one level 0
13:11:38 <rain1> we showed Halt does not exist at level 0
13:11:56 <rain1> but assume Halt exists at level 1 (i.e. level 1 is turing machines with a halting oracle)
13:12:18 <myname> there is an esolang with that premise iirc
13:12:20 <rain1> we can't implement Halt_1 at this level
13:12:30 <rain1> Halt_1 being a decision procedure that tells you if a level 1 machine halts
13:12:46 <rain1> and we just use the same proof as the normal halting problem proof?
13:13:17 <myname> for each halting problem level you can solve, you will create a new one
13:21:30 <rain1> how does this relate to arithmetic heierarchy
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13:22:30 <kritixilithos> "<rain1> i need a better resource" i had started https://www.comp.nus.edu.sg/~fstephan/recursiontheory-pdflatex.pdf a while back
13:22:45 <rain1> oh yeah i remember this
13:25:36 <kritixilithos> some proofs however aren't shown in full, so i took a break from it to start reading another book
13:30:10 <kritixilithos> but then again, asking for a proof that diophantine sets are r.e. might be a bit too much
13:32:45 <rain1> there is a good book on that, hilberts 10th problem
13:32:59 <rain1> the hardest part was finding a way to express exponentiation
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15:16:46 <rain1> the terminology is so slippery
15:16:57 <rain1> i feel like any source uses a slightly different set of terms
15:18:45 <rain1> just stuff like recursive, semidecidable, recursively enumerable, etc.
15:19:38 <kritixilithos> huh i haven't yet seen another source mean something different for any of those
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15:34:46 <rain1> I am homing in on the result I was interested in
15:35:00 <rain1> https://imgur.com/a/ZuvsRyf
15:37:50 <rain1> R.E. sets and degrees - Robert Soare
15:39:13 <rain1> i dont know if id recommend it
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15:39:31 <rain1> i just want to know this one thing
15:39:39 <rain1> but it seems to depend on a lot of theory
15:41:08 <rain1> its hard to untangle the notation
15:41:30 <rain1> I want a proof that the "uniform halting problem" is harder than the halting problem
15:41:43 <rain1> by UHP i mean: Deciding whether a turing machine halts on all inputs
15:42:06 <rain1> determining if a turing machine halts on N inputs (for any finite N) is equivalent to the halting problem
15:42:14 <rain1> but for all inputs it seems to be harder
15:43:01 <rain1> by harder I mean that we can't compute it even if we have a halting oracle
15:49:05 <fizzie> The Mohs scale of computational hardness.
15:53:22 <rain1> I would like a self contained proof of Posts theorem
15:53:34 <rain1> it's annoying to have to read 3 chapters of a book just to have the notation for this theorem
15:55:54 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77391&oldid=77390 * Zero * (+20)
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15:58:56 <rain1> I think I can ask a really good question now
15:59:29 <rain1> How does a Turing machine with a Halt_1 oracle decide if a Turing machine halts on all inputs?
15:59:46 <rain1> A Halt_1 oracle means that we have the ability to decide if any Turing Machine with a halting oracle halts or not
16:03:10 <rain1> so we have 3 levels here: Basic TMs, TMs with a halting oracle (halt0), TMs with a halt1 oracle
16:04:10 <rain1> So we can implement some kind of level1 TM and ask if it halts to decide something about a level0 machine
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16:06:29 <rain1> no I just managed to ask this question which crystalizes exactly what I want to know
16:07:51 <rain1> although I need to prove 2 things actually: That the problem is not solvable on level 1 and it is solvable on level 2
16:09:47 <rain1> I think this works
16:10:26 <rain1> if !Halt0('T(n)'): return
16:10:54 <rain1> now when we ask Halt1(X(T)) we get an answer to whether T halts on all inputs or not
16:11:33 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77393&oldid=77392 * Zero * (+1393)
16:13:45 <rain1> the first part may be harder
16:13:55 <rain1> hopefully it is solvable
16:14:57 <rain1> So assume for contradiction that we can decide if a TM halts on all inputs or not, at level 1
16:15:27 <rain1> Then we have a total procedure Tot(T : TM0) which returns 0 if it's input is not total and 1 if it is
16:15:43 <rain1> we also have access to a halting oracle (Tot will have been implemented using this)
16:16:00 <rain1> so now it would be nice to perform some kind of diagonalization/liar construction to show this cannot happen
16:17:23 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77394&oldid=77393 * Zero * (+249)
16:20:23 <b_jonas> "<spruit11> 'Do something with format specifiers' they told." => I'm sorry, you must have misunderstood me. I did mention formatted numeric output, but I didn't specifically mention format specifiers, it could have been raw format primitives too, and I would certainly never suggest new python style braced format specifiers, I HATE those, they're ruining the whole purpose of format specifiers that C and
16:20:29 <b_jonas> python perfected and making a mocking parody from them. If anyone told me they want to do a format parser, I'd suggest them to use C-like percent escapes (or common lisp-like tilde escapes if they prefer)
16:21:40 <b_jonas> nor would I ever suggest you to use a vararg formatting function in a curried language
16:22:38 <b_jonas> I program python, and I use the C-like formatting function, which is still there and supported and works *almost* well, except that for some reason they haven't added hex float output format to it yet, but that shouldn't be hard to fix
16:23:04 <rain1> one thing I would say is that it seems very hard to do a simple diagonalization proof
16:23:14 <rain1> because our primitive can only be applied to stuff at the level below
16:23:25 <rain1> whereas with turings proof: we assume halt can be applied to our own levle
16:23:35 <b_jonas> but even if you have a format parser, I'd suggest to add the underlying primitives to the public API too, so people can write their own format parser, and format afloating-point numbers in decimal without having to make a format pattern from it
16:24:39 <esowiki> [[Modulous]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77395&oldid=76969 * Abyxlrz * (+1)
16:25:21 <b_jonas> on the other hand, this might still be more useful than nothing.
16:26:01 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77396&oldid=77394 * Zero * (+353)
16:26:05 <b_jonas> egelbot: (format "{:c}" 67)
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16:27:15 <rain1> could we use a relative rice theorem?
16:30:09 <spruit11> egelbot: def box = [ 0 -> nil | N -> cons (N-1) (box (N-1)) ];; def map = [ F nil -> nil | F (cons X XX) -> cons (F X) (map F XX) ];; map [ X -> format "{:#04x}" X ] (box 16)
16:30:09 <egelbot> {"0x0f", "0x0e", "0x0d", "0x0c", "0x0b", "0x0a", "0x09", "0x08", "0x07", "0x06", "0x05", "0x04", "0x03", "0x02", "0x01", "0x00"}
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16:34:45 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77397&oldid=77396 * Zero * (+387)
16:35:54 <spruit11> b_jonas: No worries. It wasn't actually yours or mine decision in the end. I either a) drop to C internally, which is awkward, b) use C++ stream specifiers, which is hard to work with/a lot of work, or c) use C++20 braced format. I didn't really have a choice except choose the last one.
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16:37:31 <spruit11> I just wish I coud use them in the reverse direction too. To read input.
16:40:06 <spruit11> And I like the variadic stuff too. So we just disagree on that.
16:40:43 <spruit11> egelbot: format "{1} {0} {1}" 1 2
16:41:26 <b_jonas> spruit11: yes, to some extent the interfaces in the C and C++ standard library are awkward too. But formatting floating point numbers correctly is so hard that I don't recommend anyone to reimplement it. Even if you make a whole format library, you often want to do those, there are countless precedents of programs that do that even if on windows you have to work around the weird float printer of windows
16:41:32 <b_jonas> libc (which always prints three digits for the exponent and prints infs and nans weirdly) and have to work around libc on linux (in which the formatter works fine, but the scanner has some weird behavior that is probably correct and can't be changed now but nobody really knows what the correct behavior of fscanf should be and how to fix problems when you have to be compatible with old programs).
16:41:38 <b_jonas> egelbot: (format "{:c}" 67)
16:41:42 <b_jonas> egelbot: (format "{:c}" 65)
16:41:51 <b_jonas> great, so we have an easier way to chr now
16:42:07 <spruit11> I am sure C++40 will once get format right. Seems a good bet.
16:42:09 <b_jonas> egelbot: (format "{:c}-{:c}" 0xE1 0x151)
16:42:09 <egelbot> internal:1:24:lexical:error in hexadecimal int
16:42:39 <b_jonas> egelbot: (format "{:c}-{:c}" 225 337)
16:43:24 <b_jonas> ok, so how do I make utf-8 formatted characters from their ucs code point, is there a different formatter for that?
16:43:30 <b_jonas> egelbot: (format "{:C}-{:C}" 225 337)
16:43:30 <egelbot> exception("System:format invalid arguments")
16:43:34 <b_jonas> egelbot: (format "{:lc}-{:lc}" 225 337)
16:43:34 <egelbot> exception("System:format invalid arguments")
16:44:26 <spruit11> https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/utility/format/format
16:44:30 <b_jonas> egelbot: (format "{:c}{:c}-{:c}{:c}" 195 161 197 145)
16:44:42 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77398&oldid=77397 * Zero * (+228)
16:44:54 <b_jonas> that means I can output arbitrary bytes
16:45:21 <b_jonas> egelbot: String:append (format "{:c}" 195) (format "{:c}" 161)
16:45:35 <b_jonas> apparently only valid utf-8, it gets decoded from utf-8 right after format
16:46:09 <b_jonas> it's not like I really care about this part
16:46:15 <b_jonas> let me see what else you did
16:47:00 <rain1> I feel really happy because this question has made me realize just how little I know about turing machines an
16:48:00 <spruit11> That's about it. I spend a day or two making the interpreter a bit faster. But you won't notice that.
16:49:35 <b_jonas> egelbot: [v->format "{.2f} {.8f} {.2g} {.8g} {.2e} {.8e}" v v v v v v] -8862.395521078714
16:49:35 <egelbot> internal:1:3:semantical:undeclared v
16:49:48 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{.2f} {.8f} {.2g} {.8g} {.2e} {.8e}" V V V V V V] -8862.395521078714
16:49:48 <egelbot> exception("System:- bad arguments")
16:50:08 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:.2f} {:.8f} {:.2g} {:.8g} {:.2e} {:.8e}" V V V V V V] -8862.395521078714
16:50:08 <egelbot> exception("System:- bad arguments")
16:50:13 <spruit11> Oh, darn. I forgot to add a rewrite rule for monadic minus.
16:50:22 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:.2f} {:.8f} {:.2g} {:.8g} {:.2e} {:.8e}" V V V V V V] (-8862.395521078714)
16:50:22 <egelbot> "-8862.40 -8862.39552108 -8.9e+03 -8862.3955 -8.86e+03 -8.86239552e+03"
16:50:42 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:.2f} {:.8f} {:.2g} {:.8g} {:.2e} {:.8e}" V V V V V V] (-8862.395)
16:50:42 <egelbot> "-8862.40 -8862.39500000 -8.9e+03 -8862.395 -8.86e+03 -8.86239500e+03"
16:51:01 <spruit11> Oh, it interpreted that as a dyadic minus expression.
16:51:40 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:#.2f} {:#.8f} {:.2f} {:.8f} {:.2g} {:.8g} {:.2e} {:.8e}" V V V V V V V V] (-8862)
16:51:40 <egelbot> exception("System:format invalid arguments")
16:51:49 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:.2#f} {:.8#f} {:.2f} {:.8f} {:.2g} {:.8g} {:.2e} {:.8e}" V V V V V V V V] (-8862)
16:51:49 <egelbot> exception("System:format invalid arguments")
16:52:40 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:.2f} {:.8f} {:.2g} {:.8g} {:.2e} {:.8e}" V V V V V V] (-8862)
16:52:40 <egelbot> exception("System:format invalid arguments")
16:52:42 <spruit11> It's still a bit rough around the edges. The C++ format throws an error on that of which I don't propagate the message.
16:53:18 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:.2f} {:.8f}" V V] (-8862)
16:53:18 <egelbot> exception("System:format invalid arguments")
16:53:31 <spruit11> It only says 'invalid arguments' whereas I probably could give a more descriptive error.
16:53:34 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:.2f}" V] (-8862)
16:53:34 <egelbot> exception("System:format invalid arguments")
16:53:55 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:.2f} {:.8f} {:.2g} {:.8g} {:.2e} {:.8e}" V V V V V V] (-8862.395)
16:53:55 <egelbot> "-8862.40 -8862.39500000 -8.9e+03 -8862.395 -8.86e+03 -8.86239500e+03"
16:54:15 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:.2f}" V] (-8862.395)
16:54:24 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:.2f}" V] (-8862.0)
16:54:28 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:.2#f}" V] (-8862.0)
16:54:28 <egelbot> exception("System:format invalid arguments")
16:54:31 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:#.2f}" V] (-8862.0)
16:54:40 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:#f}" V] (-8862.0)
16:54:44 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:#g}" V] (-8862.0)
16:54:59 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:#g}" V] (-8862449.0)
16:55:02 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:#g}" V] (-886244.0)
16:55:05 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:#g}" V] (-886244.2)
16:55:14 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:g}" V] (-886244.2)
16:55:50 <spruit11> Well, it's not my doing. It's the `fmt` library they're adding to C++20 once.
16:56:09 <spruit11> Okay, it's my doing in that I want to leverage C++.
16:56:15 <b_jonas> egelbot: [V->format "{:d} {:X}" V V] 2769927127
16:56:21 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77399&oldid=77398 * Zero * (+384)
16:56:33 * V makes a pained face
16:58:14 <HackEso> Spam is a delicious meat product. See http://www.spamjamhawaii.com/
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16:59:38 <b_jonas> egelbot: format "%X" 15898557144921403118
16:59:44 <b_jonas> egelbot: format "{:X}" 15898557144921403118
16:59:52 <b_jonas> egelbot: 15898557144921403118
17:00:21 <b_jonas> it just saturates integer literals that are too large? interesting
17:00:53 <spruit11> I could replace that with bigints once but I won't.
17:00:56 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77400&oldid=77399 * Zero * (+249)
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17:01:32 <b_jonas> egelbot: (-9223372036854775808)
17:01:40 <b_jonas> egelbot: 9223372036854775808
17:01:51 <b_jonas> egelbot: format "{:X}" -1538786743794826979
17:01:51 <egelbot> exception("System:format invalid arguments")
17:01:57 <b_jonas> egelbot: format "{:X}" (-1538786743794826979)
17:03:02 <b_jonas> so it formats a signed 64-bit value, not an unsigned one
17:03:09 <b_jonas> how you would get libc to do that I have no idea
17:03:54 <b_jonas> I mean it doesn't even have format specifiers that format a signed integer as hex, if you try the number just gets interpreted as an unsigned number
17:05:29 <spruit11> Heh? Not sure what you asking but `fmt` defines the handlers for a large number of basic C types. So this is the handler which formats signed 64 bit integers.
17:05:53 <spruit11> Well, according to the system you're on.
17:06:24 <b_jonas> spruit11: which fmt? I mean libc's printf doesn't define such formatters. other formatting libraries might.
17:06:57 <spruit11> `fmt` is the library they're adding to C++20 as `std::format`.
17:06:57 <HackEso> fmt`? No such file or directory
17:08:43 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77401&oldid=77400 * Zero * (+773)
17:14:50 <fizzie> Hey, I think I used fmt for something. It seemed sane.
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17:15:43 <spruit11> The compilers are a bit slacking in adoption of it. But it's fine. I just ship with `fmt` for the moment.
17:16:53 <spruit11> Most of the work was looking whether it was implemented and then incorperating `fmt` instead.
17:17:28 <spruit11> Pretty sure by C++40 you'll have all the format specifiers you want.
17:22:30 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77402&oldid=77401 * Zero * (+513)
17:22:43 <b_jonas> spruit11: you can probably use an implementation that's not in libstdc++ but elsewhere, such as in boost, that is close enough
17:23:00 <b_jonas> possibly with a namespace alias so it's easy to switch it over to a different implementation
17:23:24 <spruit11> I want to keep my dependencies to a minimum. I am already getting unsatisfied with libicu.
17:23:30 <fizzie> Near the end of the century, it's going to get seriously confusing how the 2096 C++96 actually post-dates C++98. The same with C standards.
17:23:33 <fizzie> IMO, they should've called C11 -> C111, C18 -> C118, C2x -> C12x. If it's good enough for tm_year, it should be good enough for standard abbreviations as well.
17:24:09 <fizzie> That would have also meant that publishing a new C standard in 2028 could've given us a C128.
17:25:03 <b_jonas> that said, I like C printf
17:25:17 <b_jonas> it's not perfect, but it's usually good enough
17:25:25 <b_jonas> better than most of the nonsense that they put in newer languages
17:26:01 <spruit11> Heh, I just assume there's some sanity behind it.
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17:33:09 <zzo38> SQLite has its own printf, which can be called from C codes and from SQL codes. It is mostly like the C printf.
17:35:42 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77403&oldid=77402 * Zero * (+698)
17:36:34 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77404&oldid=77403 * Zero * (+13)
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17:44:28 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77405&oldid=77404 * Zero * (+451)
17:46:52 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77406&oldid=77405 * Zero * (-14)
17:48:42 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77407&oldid=77406 * Zero * (+1)
17:56:38 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77408&oldid=77407 * Zero * (-1)
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18:00:53 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77409&oldid=77408 * Zero * (+10)
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18:07:56 <kmc> fizzie: bold of you to assume that human civilization will survive to 2096
18:09:20 <kmc> right now the sky outside my window is a dark orange color
18:09:26 <kmc> light level comparable to an hour or more before sunrise
18:09:31 <kmc> it is 11 AM
18:09:36 <kmc> see also every photo on https://www.reddit.com/r/bayarea/
18:10:07 <int-e> nice scifi book cover
18:10:30 <int-e> just add a few flying cars
18:10:38 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77410&oldid=77409 * Zero * (+189)
18:10:42 <fizzie> Reminds me of Beneath A Steel Sky for some reason.
18:11:12 <fizzie> (I don't even think it has any scene quite like that.)
18:13:23 <kmc> my friend texted me this morning "Is there life on Mars?"
18:19:09 <kmc> this is why I'm learning to grow mushrooms.
18:19:12 <kmc> they don't require sunlight
18:19:14 <kmc> not much, anyway
18:19:41 <int-e> fizzie: well, there's this in the intro: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/bass1.png
18:20:49 <int-e> somehow, I don't remember all that much of this game
18:22:22 <fizzie> Oh, maybe I subconsciously remembered that or something.
18:24:05 <fizzie> I sort of remember it had that thing where lower-class people live on the lower levels of the city, and you needed to work your way up (via puzzles, naturally).
18:24:56 <int-e> but most of it takes place indoors in steel blue decor
18:25:57 <fizzie> Oh, they've got a sequel out, like, just recently? Didn't know that at all.
18:28:33 <int-e> Hmm, could be interesting.
18:31:08 <int-e> In a couple of years, I guess.
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19:20:45 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77411&oldid=77410 * Zero * (-1)
19:47:13 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77412&oldid=77411 * Zero * (+1)
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20:15:29 <esowiki> [[THE LAST ACTION LANGUAGE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77413&oldid=77412 * Zero * (+361)
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21:49:48 <zzo38> Next in GURPS game, we have to stop some kind of operation in a black tower; apparently with enough power, the tower will "activate". One of my ideas was to damage the tower itself to create structural weaknesses, but what do you think is the best way to try to do that?
22:07:31 <kmc> depends on what the tower is made from
22:08:32 <zzo38> Yes, I thought that too, and unfortunately I don't know, but I know that it is black.
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23:48:16 <int-e> Oh, "platform security" = "vendor lock-in"? Nobody could foresee that... https://www.servethehome.com/amd-psb-vendor-locks-epyc-cpus-for-enhanced-security-at-a-cost/
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00:14:07 <b_jonas> zzo38: wait, so which side are you on? are you trying to activate the tower more easily, or avoid the owner of the tower activiating it against you?
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00:52:54 <zzo38> b_jonas: Trying to prevent them from activating it, possibly by damaging it instead.
00:59:21 <zzo38> (I don't know what is the effect of activating the tower, but I do not want to risk it.)
01:01:07 <zzo38> Also, the lord of this tower seems to be able to react to things faster than is possible, almost like he can predict them before it happens; e.g. if someone shoots a crossbow at him from behind, he will move out of the way just in time.
01:09:49 <b_jonas> hmm. so divination magic or, worse, Time Stop.
01:10:07 <b_jonas> or some even more powerful time travel magic
01:13:45 <b_jonas> if you find out that it is time travel, you might want to try to tell the Lord that every time he travels time to save someone, he dooms someone in the alternate universe he time traveled away from, as in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBkBS4O3yvY or https://qntm.org/imperfect
01:52:54 <zzo38> I am not even sure that it is a spell (although it does seem to be a magic power, or maybe psychic; I doubt it is a scientific power). I would guess (although have not actually seen it yet, and just heard what has been reported), they could predict anything one second ahead of time, which is enough time to dodge any attack; explosions can only partally be dodged.
01:56:14 <zzo38> GURPS does have rules for traveling to alternate universes/timelines, both with technology and with spells and psychic powers.
01:57:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: ooh! in that case you need the swerving stunner, a spell whose projectile that can change direction in the air once, and is disguised as an ordinary stunning spell, specifically used against opponents with lightning fast reflexes who normally dodge all attacks, since they have to commit to the dodge like a football goalie. (it's a plot point in Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality)
02:01:09 <zzo38> O, good point. (I don't know so much about football though, and neither of my characters, nor as far as I know anyone else in our party, has a Sports (Football) skill.)
02:09:49 <zzo38> I did have some other ideas too, though, such as tricking them into dodging so the attack hits something behind them on purpose, tricking them into dodging into some kind of trap, etc.
02:10:17 <HackEso> Trap Runner \ 2WW \ Creature -- Human Soldier \ 2/3 \ {T}: Target unblocked attacking creature becomes blocked. Activate this ability only during combat after blockers are declared. (This ability works on creatures that can't be blocked.) \ MM-U
02:11:09 <b_jonas> you said "next in GURPS game", does that confrontation has to happen in a few in-game days? because it might be hard to track down an obscure spell like that in that time.
02:12:18 <zzo38> Probably it does have to happen in a few in-game days (or maybe even in less than 24 hours); it certainly has to happen before we go back to England (or anywhere else in Europe).
02:12:50 <zzo38> However, there may be solutions not involving magic, and I may be able to use a magic scroll (each of which is usable only once).
02:20:35 <zzo38> These scrolls include: the ability to transform into an elemental creature (quadruped) for a minimum of 1 hour and a maximum of 12 hours; a precognition that is usable only once; an illusionary sound for up to three minutes; the ability to speak to plants for five minutes; an insubstantial projection for up to 10 hours; and the ability to summon up to three small items (which either you could reasonably own, or is inexpensive and widely
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02:29:39 <kmc> can you also speak with fungi?
02:29:51 <zzo38> O, actually there are a few more: to mess up someone's magic powers for three minutes (the target must be touched); the ability to create nearly any item with a mass up to five pounds and lasting ten minutes; a wall lasting for ten seconds, created up to ten yards away; and two scrolls which themself can be used as melee weapons: one knocks back the target several yards if it hits; one causes significant damage with incendiary fragmenta
02:30:31 <zzo38> kmc: I do not think so; fungi are not plants, but a separate classification.
02:31:26 <kmc> that's true
02:31:42 <kmc> a fungus could destroy a wood tower very well, although not quickly, but if it were a magic fungus it might be quick
02:32:21 <fizzie> kmc: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6227805/ "We propose that fungi Basidiomycetes can be used as computing devices: --"
02:33:05 <kmc> I think the ability to talk to fungi would be a good magical power, since they can cover a large area underground, and could probably tell you useful things like the presence/absence of certain chemicals or creatures
02:33:58 <zzo38> Somehow, GURPS doesn't have a "Speak With Fungi" power. But, I think you are right it can be a useful power to have.
02:34:27 <kmc> fizzie: that is neat
02:34:52 <fizzie> kmc: The "Application domains" section is almost what you just said. :)
02:35:04 <fizzie> (Ran into that paper when trying to look up the Fungal Computers Inc. "Computers that grow on you" slogan, which I've got permanently bouncing around inside my head.)
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06:15:00 <zzo38> One idea is to make them some sort of zugzwang or halbzugzwang, rather than by using magic powers.
06:17:06 <zzo38> (Or to do that using magic powers.)
06:25:46 <shachaf> Or use sorcery instead of magic, or perhaps witchcraft.
06:45:42 <zzo38> Depending what you mean by "sorcery"
06:48:51 <shachaf> I mean you have to cast it during a main phase when there's nothing on the stack.
06:51:10 <zzo38> Yes, in Magic: the Gathering (I thought of that too), but the game I was mentioning isn't Magic: the Gathering.
06:52:17 <shachaf> But doesn't sorcery work the same way in the real world?
06:54:38 <zzo38> Real world? I wasn't discussing the real world, though.
06:58:57 <myname> i'm interested, how does sorcery work in the real world?
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07:01:06 <zzo38> Wikipedia just says "Sorcery may refer to: Magic (supernatural) [...] Witchcraft [...] Maleficium (sorcery), a form of evil magic [...] Magic in fiction [...]"
07:02:38 <shachaf> Oh, I must've meant maleficium.
07:03:01 <shachaf> The truth is that I didn't really mean anything. I was just naming synonyms for magic.
07:04:37 <int-e> mmm conjuring up synonyms
07:04:58 <zzo38> Sometimes the term "sorcery" may refer to a specific convention of using magic, in some systems, for example.
07:17:22 <shachaf> For example the convention where you cast it during your main phase when the stack is empty?
07:23:38 <zzo38> In Magic: the Gathering, yes.
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08:37:23 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77415 * Zero * (+1235) Created page with "'''DigitDigitJump''' is a derivative of [[BitBitJump]]. The VM operates on a string which contains digits and space characters. Addresses are expressed in base 10, and space-..."
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08:49:12 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77416&oldid=77415 * Zero * (+153)
08:49:39 <cpressey> I'm writing a compiler in Haskell. Uncharacteristically, I'm willingly using monads in it. However, (a) the only monad I'm using (outside the parser) is Either, and (b) I'm avoiding do-notation as much as I can.
08:50:04 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77417&oldid=77416 * Zero * (+25)
09:07:21 <shachaf> What about (r ->)? I bet you're using that one.
09:08:25 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77418&oldid=77417 * Zero * (+163)
09:08:44 <cpressey> Yeah. I'm also using lists. I'm not using them as monads though.
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09:12:43 <cpressey> Whereas with the Eithers I'm using >=> extensively.
09:34:03 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77419&oldid=77418 * Zero * (+155)
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10:39:56 <cpressey> splay3 p1 p2 p3 f = p1 >>= (\a -> p2 >>= (\b -> p3 >>= (\c -> return $ f a b c))) -- see, isn't that so much nicer than do-notation?
10:40:32 <cpressey> Especially when f is just a type constructor or something. It's all pointfree and stuff.
10:42:02 <fizzie> @pl splay3 p1 p2 p3 f = p1 >>= (\a -> p2 >>= (\b -> p3 >>= (\c -> return $ f a b c)))
10:42:02 <lambdabot> splay3 = (. ((. ((. (((return .) .) .)) . (.) . (.) . (>>=))) . (.) . (.) . (>>=))) . (.) . (.) . (>>=)
10:42:08 <fizzie> Wouldn't that be much more elegant?
10:54:45 <arseniiv> a while ago, a friend suggested that in a mathematical conlang we had a few ideas about, an empty set should be pronounced [ø]
10:56:20 <arseniiv> (though there were too few ideas to make a proof of concept, unfortunately, but this one idea is eso I think)
10:57:50 <arseniiv> there is one downside as otherwise ø might have been used in much more contexts and this designation constrained it much
11:17:51 <cpressey> I think most mathematical formulae would end up being rather awkward to pronounce no matter what phonology you assign to the symbols
11:41:45 <cpressey> "minus bee, plus or minus square root of, bee squared minus four ay see, all over two ay"
11:44:50 <cpressey> @pl qf a b c = (-1 * b + sqrt(b * b - 4 * a * c)) / (2 * a)
11:44:51 <lambdabot> qf = ap (flip . ((flip . (((/) . negate) .)) .) . liftM2 (.) (+) . ((sqrt .) .) . flip ((.) . (-) . join (*)) . (*) . (4 *)) (2 *)
11:50:39 <rain1> I can explain the answer to my question
11:51:09 <rain1> I was interested in "Tot" being harder than "Halt". Definitions: Halt is the ability to tell if a turing machine halts. Tot is the ability to tell if a turing machine halts on all inputs.
11:51:46 <rain1> Using Halting oracles you can construct an infinite sequence of classes of hardness. TMs, TMs + Halt oracle, TMs + Halt1 oracle (they can tell if the level below halts), ...
11:52:10 <rain1> Halt lives on the second level, Tot lives on the 3rd
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11:53:48 <rain1> The thing we need to use to prove this is the arithmetic hierarchy
11:54:08 <rain1> I don't fully get this stuff yet
11:54:15 <rain1> but Sigma_2 and Pi_2 are two parts of the 3rd level
11:54:58 <rain1> they corresponds to sets defined by computable relations phi, like this: x is in the set iff Pi_2 is forall y, exists z, phi(x,y,z)
11:55:16 <rain1> and Sigma_2 is sets x is in the set iff Sigma_2 is exists y, forall z, phi(x,y,z)
11:55:58 <rain1> Now we can show that O'' is Sigma_2 complete, O''-complement is Pi_2 complete
11:56:22 <rain1> and Tot is Pi_2 complete
11:56:33 <rain1> the proofs of these are quite neat but i wont get into the details
11:56:42 <rain1> O'' is something to do with level 3?
11:57:01 <rain1> So there are some aspects of this I need to clarify but roughly speaking that is how its done
11:57:35 <rain1> I'm not sure how Sigma/Pi relate to decidable/semideciable/co-semidecidable sets
11:58:50 <rain1> also 2 interesting facts I picked up on this journey: there are partial computable functions that cannot be extended to total computable ones. There's degrees of undecidability between level0 (TMs) and TMs+Halt
11:58:57 <rain1> they are called "low degrees"
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12:09:07 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77420&oldid=77419 * Zero * (+257)
12:40:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:LYaPAS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77421&oldid=77197 * Amakukha * (+280) /* What version of LYaPAS are these symbols from? */ new section
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13:03:58 <cpressey> rain1: That there are partial computable functions that cannot be extended to total computable functions seems intuitive to me at least (the "missing parts" are not computable so how would one possibly "fix" them computably)
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13:10:44 <cpressey> The low degrees, I've heard of, but I don't remember anything about them
13:17:29 <cpressey> Vague recollection that the halting problem itself is low. Briefly looking at "Low basis theorem" on Wikipedia suggests that is the case.
13:20:36 <cpressey> And that there are "PA degrees" below the HP but it's unclear to me what they signify exactly.
13:35:05 <rain1> interesting stuffo n wiki
13:37:40 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77422&oldid=77420 * Zero * (-85)
13:39:07 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77423&oldid=77422 * Zero * (+57)
13:42:31 <b_jonas> cpressey: yes, any turing-complete function should be like that
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14:40:41 <rain1> i will need to go over definitions a bit more
14:40:56 <rain1> but i think it's the set of sets which are turing equivalent to the 2nd halting problem
14:42:45 <b_jonas> as in a replacement for "Ő" when you can't type it for technical reasons back in the 2000s
14:43:59 <kritixilithos> b_jonas: i can't tell if you are being facetious or not
15:19:33 <rain1> https://risingentropy.com/the-arithmetic-hierarchy-and-computability/
15:22:44 <rain1> The Busy Beaver numbers are an example of a Δ2 set.
15:24:30 <rain1> In fact, the Busy Beaver numbers are even better than Δ2; they’re Π1, co-recursively enumerable
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15:37:30 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77424&oldid=77423 * Zero * (+6)
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15:44:10 <b_jonas> "a complete inventory of some items is available" hehe
15:48:07 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77425&oldid=77424 * Zero * (+28)
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16:14:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Lenta]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77426 * Tetrapyronia * (+410) /* Brainf**k Translation */ new section
16:39:54 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77427&oldid=77350 * SunnyMoon * (-5) Wait, how?
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17:18:39 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77428&oldid=77427 * SunnyMoon * (-5) There is an infinite stack of inputs!
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20:56:38 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77429 * Woofmao * (+5384) Created page
21:08:44 <esowiki> [[Pi Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77430&oldid=77429 * Woofmao * (-3) typo
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21:52:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:Lenta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77431&oldid=77426 * Tetrapyronia * (-11)
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22:09:13 <HackEso> Mana Cylix \ 1 \ Artifact \ {1}, {T}: Add one mana of any color. \ PS-U, CON-C
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23:04:25 <HackEso> Teferi's Care \ 2W \ Enchantment \ {W}, Sacrifice an enchantment: Destroy target enchantment. \ {3}{U}{U}: Counter target enchantment spell. \ IN-U \ \ Teferi's Curse \ 1U \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant artifact or creature \ Enchanted permanent has phasing. (It phases in or out before its controller untaps during each of their untap steps. While it's phased out, it's treated as though it doesn't exist.) \ MI-C \ \ Teferi's Drake \ 2U \ Cre
23:05:06 <HackEso> Shock \ R \ Instant \ Shock deals 2 damage to any target. \ ST-C, 6E-C, S00-C, 7E-C, ONS-C, 8ED-C, 9ED-C, 10E-C, M12-C, M14-C, AER-C, DDN-C \ \ Shock Troops \ 3R \ Creature -- Human Soldier \ 2/2 \ Sacrifice Shock Troops: It deals 2 damage to any target. \ MM-C, 8ED-C \ \ Shocker \ 1R \ Creature -- Insect \ 1/1 \ Whenever Shocker deals damage to a player, that player discards all the cards in their hand, then draws that many cards. \ TE-R \
23:05:29 <HackEso> Bolt of Keranos \ 1RR \ Sorcery \ Bolt of Keranos deals 3 damage to any target. Scry 1. (Look at the top card of your library. You may put that card on the bottom of your library.) \ BNG-C \ \ Boltwing Marauder \ 3BR \ Creature -- Dragon \ 5/4 \ Flying \ Whenever another creature enters the battlefield under your control, target creature gets +2/+0 until end of turn. \ DTK-R
23:05:42 <HackEso> Blightning \ 1BR \ Sorcery \ Blightning deals 3 damage to target player or planeswalker. That player or that planeswalker's controller discards two cards. \ ALA-C, A25-U, DDK-C
23:05:49 <HackEso> Lightning Bolt \ R \ Instant \ Lightning Bolt deals 3 damage to any target. \ A-C, B-C, U-C, RV-C, 4E-C, M10-C, M11-C, MM2-U, E01-U, A25-U, MED-C, PD2-C
23:07:29 <spruit11> Reading up on cmake. Unhappy. Did towers of Hanoi instead. https://github.com/egel-lang/egel/blob/master/examples/hanoi.eg
23:08:34 <shachaf> Is cmake good? Every time I need to use it it seems pretty unpleasant.
23:09:00 <spruit11> I have no clue. I know I want weird things from it so, no idea.
23:09:26 <spruit11> But people don't seem to like my makefile solution, and I was hoping for something portable.
23:15:09 <b_jonas> spruit11: now you have two problems
23:19:12 <shachaf> That seems relatively easy because all those systems are nearly the same.
23:19:19 <shachaf> You can use a shell script.
23:19:25 <spruit11> Nah. Not yet, anyway. If I magically somehow attract some users maybe.
23:19:41 <spruit11> I use make and two shell scripts at the moment.
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23:51:54 <zzo38> What I do is including the shell scripts for compiling at the top of each C code file.
00:07:16 <shachaf> But how do you run the code?
00:07:34 <shachaf> Including shell scripts at the top seems very Unix-centric.
00:07:39 <shachaf> I want my programs to be cross-platform.
00:08:34 <zzo38> Well, you could still compile it without running the shell script at top too I suppose, just using whatever compiler it is; or you can use WSL
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00:13:14 <shachaf> How do you write a shell script at the top?
00:13:22 <shachaf> I guess you can start a C program with #if 0
00:13:28 <shachaf> But you can't have a #! line.
00:13:52 <zzo38> Yes, although you can still run it by writing "bash main.c" or whatever
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03:43:39 <zzo38> Here is a implementation of Unnecessary in PostScript: ARGUMENTS 0{get(r)file}stopped{[}if] Like the one I wrote in JavaScript, the error message is strange.
03:45:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Unnecessary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77432&oldid=57536 * Zzo38 * (+363) Implementation in PostScript (which is also a bit strange)
03:46:02 <zzo38> Hopefully, both of these implementations, you could see how it is working.
04:00:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:Unnecessary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77433&oldid=77432 * Zzo38 * (+59)
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04:12:27 <zzo38> Is there a short way to write googol with roman numbers?
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04:39:22 <Arcorann_> An X with 33 bars over it might work
04:44:48 <Arcorann_> The other option is something like CCC...CCC|ↃↃↃ...ↃↃↃ (see also Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_numerals#Large_numbers)
04:45:05 <Arcorann_> where there are 98 Cs and backwards Cs
04:49:00 <zzo38> How many bars was the largest number of bars the Romans used?
04:51:49 <Arcorann_> I don't know of any historical cases where more than one was used
04:54:52 <zzo38> I think in modern use, most things with roman numbers are not going to use any bars, nor any fractions, although I have occasionally used fractions
04:59:53 <Arcorann_> (That pipe should be an I by the way)
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05:48:17 <zzo38> I think the rules for Cryptography skill in GURPS isn't very good. And for other reasons, there are also problems with Fortune-Telling skill. And actually, also Brawling skill; you might be better or worse at bites, horns, claws, etc, but the skill level for them is not distinguished (although the attacks themself are distinguished).
06:02:34 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77434&oldid=77425 * Zero * (-24)
06:31:56 <int-e> Woah, there's a World Standards Day?
06:32:45 <int-e> Which is on October 14th every year. Boring so far... but the reason I'm reading about this now is this: 'The U.S. Celebration of World Standards Day (WSD), an event intended to raise awareness of the importance of global standardization to the world economy and to promote its role in helping meet the needs of business, industry, government, and consumers worldwide, will be held on Thursday,...
06:41:18 <int-e> https://www.ansi.org/news_publications/news_story?menuid=7&articleid=fa8379c4-3024-4970-b782-9446aadaf805
06:41:56 <int-e> . o O ( ANSI adaptation of international standards always takes a while. )
07:01:45 <Arcorann_> According to Wikipedia they've been doing this since 2014
07:04:47 <Arcorann_> https://www.ansi.org/meetings_events/WSWEEK/WSW2020/World-Standards-Day <-- by the way, this year's was cancelled
07:11:26 <int-e> Sorry, I somehow find this funny.
07:12:07 <int-e> (The datas. The cancellation is just good practice right now.)
07:12:38 <int-e> Though many events go virtual instead.
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10:36:57 <cpressey> The PA degrees are interesting. The WP article doesn't do a good job defining what a "completion of PA" is, but I take it that a completion of PA is not (necessarily) Turing-complete. Which raises the interesting question of what computability class (or classes) they do represent.
10:40:38 <cpressey> "A completion of Peano arithmetic is a set of formulas in the language of Peano arithmetic, such that the set is consistent in first-order logic and such that, for each formula, either that formula or its negation is included in the set."
10:41:04 <cpressey> That sentence sounds like a tautology to me -- they must mean something by "for each formula" that I don't get
10:41:24 <rain1> i suppose we have to assign a truth value to everything
10:41:30 <rain1> as opposed to leaving undecidable sentences
10:46:42 <rain1> so we can actually write a real computer program that lists out the truth values of PA sentences in an order such that everything is mentioned eventually?
10:53:59 <cpressey> What truth value would you expect it to eventually print out for the PA sentence that says "This sentence is false"?
10:55:15 <rain1> is it impossible to assign it a truth value?
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11:10:18 <cpressey> The PA degree article does seem to say that the PA degrees are uncomputable, and it doesn't actually refer to any proof that there is a PA degree strictly lower than the HP - it only says "There are also PA degrees that are not above 0‘".
11:10:41 <cpressey> So maybe 0' is the lowest PA degree, it doesn't seem to rule that out.
11:12:34 <cpressey> A set that is uncomputable but "not as uncomputable as the halting problem" is very, very hard to imagine.
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11:14:16 <rain1> especially with rices theorem??
11:14:20 <rain1> doesn't rices theorem rule that out
11:32:52 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * HerzogDietrich * New user account
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12:08:11 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77435&oldid=77434 * Zero * (-30)
12:20:19 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77436&oldid=73071 * UltimateProGrammer * (+134) Outputs letter
12:28:21 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77437&oldid=77436 * UltimateProGrammer * (+11)
12:32:44 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77438&oldid=77437 * UltimateProGrammer * (+46) Get FizzBuzz to work
12:40:33 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77439&oldid=77435 * Zero * (+129) Undo revision 77435 by [[Special:Contributions/Zero|Zero]] ([[User talk:Zero|talk]])
12:45:57 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77440&oldid=77438 * UltimateProGrammer * (+768) Say Fizz instead of F and the same with buzz
12:46:43 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77441&oldid=77439 * Zero * (+91)
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12:51:45 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77442&oldid=77441 * Zero * (+229)
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14:50:44 <esowiki> [[DigitDigitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77443&oldid=77442 * Zero * (-30)
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14:55:08 <kritixilithos> bwah what a cliff-hanger (https://risingentropy.com/the-arithmetic-hierarchy-and-computability/)
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16:24:57 <esowiki> [[Snake Script]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77444 * BlueOkiris * (+4065) Created page with "= Snake Script = Snake Script is a language created by Dylan Turner aka ~~~~ == Description == The goal was to make a language that fits nicely in a traditional terminal. I..."
16:25:49 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77445&oldid=77377 * BlueOkiris * (+19) /* S */
16:32:36 <rain1> https://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/130030/incomputable-sets-of-low-degree-vs-rices-theorem/130035#130035
16:32:40 <rain1> I asked about low degree
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18:23:30 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1214.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
18:23:58 <Sgeo> I keep forgetting about `olist even when I'm on IRC and see the update before it's been done
18:31:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Lenta]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77446&oldid=77431 * Tetrapyronia * (-1)
20:07:04 <zzo38> I started to implement a "safe interactive mode" in TeXnicard, for use when you are making it available as a remote service (such as with SSH), and are not using other mechanisms to improve security (e.g. separate user accounts, sandboxing, etc).
20:37:42 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77447&oldid=77428 * SunnyMoon * (+81) Stack of STRINGS
20:38:14 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77448&oldid=77447 * SunnyMoon * (+1) uh oh
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02:10:49 <esowiki> [[User talk:Baguette]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77449&oldid=77376 * Emerald * (+105) /* SCREAMCODE */ new section
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04:23:24 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77450&oldid=77448 * TwilightSparkle * (-3) Strings are neccessarily lists, but not vice versa/
04:45:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:Unnecessary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77451&oldid=77433 * TwilightSparkle * (+372)
04:55:43 <esowiki> [[User talk:Zero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77452&oldid=65082 * TwilightSparkle * (+427)
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05:03:54 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77453&oldid=77450 * TwilightSparkle * (-128) Not really.
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07:57:07 <esowiki> [[Modulous]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77454&oldid=77395 * Abyxlrz * (+16)
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08:39:57 <esowiki> [[Modulous]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77455&oldid=77454 * Abyxlrz * (+232)
09:04:04 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * EverythingEli * New user account
09:12:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77456&oldid=77370 * EverythingEli * (+175) Add sig
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09:31:23 <esowiki> [[Dots]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77457 * EverythingEli * (+394) Add this page
10:00:23 <esowiki> [[Dots]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77458&oldid=77457 * EverythingEli * (+80)
10:05:44 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77459&oldid=76704 * EverythingEli * (-60395) bye bye
10:10:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77460&oldid=77459 * EverythingEli * (+188) AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
10:10:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77461&oldid=77460 * EverythingEli * (-188) Undo revision 77460 by [[Special:Contributions/EverythingEli|EverythingEli]] ([[User talk:EverythingEli|talk]])
10:13:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77462&oldid=77461 * EverythingEli * (+131)
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13:27:45 <spruit11> Heh. I think I managed to move succesfully from makefiles to cmake.
13:46:02 <int-e> At least it's not scons.
13:47:12 <int-e> I also happen to like gmake.
13:47:52 <rain1> https://github.com/rain-1/makes i made a thing once
13:48:07 <int-e> But I also don't care much for portability.
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13:52:21 <fizzie> Hmm, wonder if the tup build system is still going. Had a phase where I used it, few years back.
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14:30:46 <b_jonas> fungot, what's the speed of light in meters per second these days?
14:30:46 <fungot> b_jonas: the new fnord the fourth of which is the use to which the documents, that that future relationship, that is, to the report, the government have made.
14:31:39 <fizzie> fungot: You mean the government has (re)defined the speed of light?
14:31:40 <fungot> fizzie: my hon. and learned friend the minister for the way the hon. and learned friend the minister for that. i will be more about understanding the need, the recognised age of adulthood, the continuity of the law,
14:32:32 <fizzie> I think someone's switched my hon. and learned friend fungot to the ukparl corpus again.
14:32:33 <fungot> fizzie: we have to be very good and useful next step, in the safe hands, the best tools. the northern fnord. and there is the prospect of the fnord alliance, the british property federation, not councils, more rights, better pay, and have a new relationship, the new system, the accompanying the bill,
14:47:47 <esowiki> [[User talk:Zero]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77463&oldid=77452 * Zero * (+32)
14:50:35 <b_jonas> fizzie: maybe the government redefined it from 186e3 miles per second to 300e6 meters per second
15:04:48 <Arcorann> Based on my logs, that was shachaf about three days ago
15:21:36 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald/sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77464 * Emerald * (+92) Created page with "This will be where i brainstorm esolangs, feel free to add criticism in the discussion page."
15:22:55 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77465&oldid=75516 * Emerald * (+26) /* Other Pages of mine */
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15:37:00 <spruit11> Yay. cmake puts .so file where ld cannot find it.
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15:57:43 <spruit11> egelbot: [ X -> format "{}" X ] "cmake.." #took a week, I guess
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17:01:41 <arseniiv> I think if a conlang has seximal as its number system, then if there’s a sacred language associated with it, it can intentionally use septimal
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18:24:08 <fizzie> Ugh. Kind of regretting the choice of living the life of OpenWRT master branch on my (Linksys WRT32X) router.
18:24:17 <fizzie> The hardware's such that it's got internally a 7-port Ethernet switch; ports 0-4 are the 4 LAN + 1 WAN port (only difference in labeling), and ports 5-6 are wired to the SoC using its two gigabit Ethernet interfaces.
18:24:28 <fizzie> OpenWRT used to have a setup where the switch is controlled as a separate device (with swconfig), using VLANs to have ports 0-3+5 in one network (LAN) and 4+6 in another (WAN), but I tweaked it further to extract port 3 to a separate VLAN (and turned on tagging on port 5 to differentiate).
18:24:45 <fizzie> But now they've gone ahead and migrated the setup to the new Linux DSA ("distributed switch architecture") thing, which abstracts away all the switch configuration, and makes all the switch ports just appear directly as network interfaces to the kernel.
18:25:08 <fizzie> It's a lot simpler for sure, but the way I've got it set up, I bake the configuration directly into the firmware image, instead of just letting OpenWRT to do its default config and then customizing that on the Flash overlay filesystem. I feel like I have approximately 3% chance of getting it sufficiently right the first time that I can actually still SSH in to the silly thing. And of course it doesn't
18:25:14 <fizzie> have an exposed serial port. (Though it's actually got one that's *reasonably* easy to hook into, but that'd still involve fiddling the case open.)
18:52:31 <kmc> good luck!
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20:05:22 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77466&oldid=77464 * Emerald * (+1841)
20:31:21 <fungot> fizzie: was the hon. member of this house, is the constituency. they have been a huge public support, and given the governments comments. all children should have an opportunity,
20:31:30 <fizzie> ...huh, that was slow.
20:33:15 <fizzie> In any case. Just to provide some closure, the upgrade *almost* worked, except something in the OpenWRT build resulted in the nft_chain_nat.ko module not getting bundled into the OpenWRT packages. Managed to find it in the build directory, copy it over, and insmod it manually. But I need to figure out how to fix that permanently.
20:41:19 <esowiki> [[User:SunnyMoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77467&oldid=77347 * SunnyMoon * (+34) From now on I will display the current language I am interested in!
20:59:20 <fizzie> TIL: OpenStreetMap has a `royal_cypher` key for the initials/symbol that's stamped on UK post boxes and shows under which monarch's reign the box was set up.
20:59:23 <fizzie> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:royal%20cypher?uselang=en-GB
21:05:50 <imode> so everything is on fire.
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10:41:30 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77468&oldid=77445 * SunnyMoon * (+11) Where were you, 1L_a?
10:49:31 <esowiki> [[1L a]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77469&oldid=36071 * SunnyMoon * (+40) Headings make it easier.
10:50:35 <esowiki> [[1L a]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77470&oldid=77469 * SunnyMoon * (-75) 1L_a has no control flow.
10:51:35 <esowiki> [[1L a]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77471&oldid=77470 * SunnyMoon * (-28) If I am wrong, please revert my edits.
10:54:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:1L a]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77472 * SunnyMoon * (+172) Citation needed
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11:21:52 <lambdabot> KOAK 131053Z 35005KT 1 1/2SM BR FU BKN006 15/13 A2991 RMK AO2 SLP127 T01500128 $
11:21:56 <lambdabot> KSEA 131053Z 12003KT 3/4SM FU BR OVC031 12/11 A2996 RMK AO2 SLPNO FU OVC031 T01170106
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12:19:50 <lambdabot> EGLL 131150Z AUTO 25012KT 9999 NCD 23/12 Q1024 NOSIG
12:43:03 <HackEso> 2020-09-13 12:43:02.650 +0000 UTC September 13 Sunday 2020-W37-7
12:55:33 <fizzie> Ooh, missed that. Oh well, it's the powers of 2 that are the real moments to celebrate.
12:55:36 <fizzie> `` printf "%x" $(date +%s)
12:56:54 <fizzie> `` date --date=@$(python -c 'print(0x60000000)')
12:56:56 <HackEso> Thu Jan 14 08:25:36 UTC 2021
12:57:02 <fizzie> Something to look forward to.
12:57:25 <fizzie> `` date --date=@$(python -c 'print(0x50000000)')
12:57:26 <HackEso> Fri Jul 13 11:01:20 UTC 2012
12:57:50 <fizzie> s/powers of 2/multiples of large &/
13:03:36 <int-e> > (3*2^29 - 1600000000)/86400
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13:08:57 <fizzie> `` s=$(date +%s); for p in $(seq 10 40); do date --date=@$(((s&~(1<<p-1))+(1<<p))); done | paste
13:08:59 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.31981
13:10:07 <fizzie> Hmm, I think I messed that up somewhere.
13:10:28 <esowiki> [[Ix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77473&oldid=77231 * Orisphera * (+44) /* The language */
13:11:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: well you can find occasions to celebrate any time
13:12:19 <esowiki> [[Ix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77474&oldid=77473 * Orisphera * (+93) /* Case-sensitivity */
13:12:22 <fizzie> Oh, precedence. 1<<p-1 == (1<<p)-1, not 1<<(p-1).
13:12:28 <fizzie> `` s=$(date +%s); for p in $(seq 10 40); do date --date=@$(((s&~((1<<p)-1))+(1<<p))); done | uniq | paste
13:12:30 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.11013
13:12:49 <fizzie> Judging from the fact that y2k38 shows up, that's probably right.
13:13:48 <fizzie> (Er, I mean, I *wanted* 1<<p-1 to be (1<<p)-1, not 1<<(p-1).)
13:16:10 <int-e> `` dc <<<2o1600000000p
13:16:11 <HackEso> 1011111010111100001000000000000
13:16:38 <int-e> (that long run of 1s following the 10 at the start is also significant)
13:32:53 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77475&oldid=77331 * Orisphera * (+180) /* Ideas related to esoteric operating systems, esoteric processors and esoteric computers */
13:35:25 <esowiki> [[1L a]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77476&oldid=77471 * TwilightSparkle * (+75) Undo revision 77470 by [[Special:Contributions/SunnyMoon|SunnyMoon]] ([[User talk:SunnyMoon|talk]]) How? 1L_a do have control flow. Did you even read the specs?
13:39:29 <esowiki> [[1L a]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77477&oldid=77476 * SunnyMoon * (-75) IF statements. They are essential for turing machines.
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14:11:57 <esowiki> [[1L a]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77478&oldid=77477 * SunnyMoon * (+122) Commenting 101
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15:42:43 <esowiki> [[Filth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77479&oldid=77330 * Bananaapple * (+855) Updated the language definition to remove some ambiguity. "Executing a popped \X will result in strangeness." is not true, since its behaviour can be both defined and implemented rather easily, and it was never a part of the original definition. I changed the definition of label
15:43:41 <esowiki> [[Filth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77480&oldid=77479 * Bananaapple * (+5) formatting
15:44:58 <esowiki> [[Filth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77481&oldid=77480 * Bananaapple * (+79) typo and one more ambiguity down
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18:06:31 <esowiki> [[Filth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77482&oldid=77481 * Bananaapple * (-4) the XX is not a valid operation to do on the command stack. Why was 'x' there in the first place then?
18:24:10 <kmc> there was an event?
18:24:18 <kmc> is it the sort of event where you remain indoors?
18:24:46 <b_jonas> kmc: unix epoch time 1_600_000_000
18:28:53 <kmc> it's weird that i've been alive for almost 2/3 of the unix epoch
18:29:00 <kmc> seems impossible somehow
18:41:18 <spruit11> We are closer to Ceasar than Ceasar to the construction of the pyramids. Weird too.
18:45:44 <imode> spruit11: don't feel bad, we have the 17 event in a couple years.
19:02:17 <kmc> spruit11: yeah
19:39:07 <int-e> 0x60000000 is next January.
19:40:07 <fizzie> (And after that, there's just one high nybble flip left before the Big One.)
19:47:21 <fizzie> Our channel turned 2^29 seconds old late last year, and I think nobody celebrated that either.
19:47:26 <fizzie> `` date --date=@$(( $(date --date='2002-12-09T06:00:00Z' +%s) + 2**29 ))
19:47:27 <HackEso> Sat Dec 14 00:48:32 UTC 2019
19:48:40 <fizzie> `` date --date=@$(( $(date --date='2002-12-09T06:00:00Z' +%s) + 2**30 ))
19:48:42 <HackEso> Wed Dec 17 19:37:04 UTC 2036
19:51:06 <fizzie> 2^29 seconds is surprisingly close to being exactly 17 years.
19:51:10 <fizzie> > 2**29 / (86400*365.2425)
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19:53:56 <myname> 10! secons are exactly 6 weeks
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20:00:03 <Emerald> can anyone here help me on anything
20:01:31 <HackEso> Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
20:01:43 <HackEso> hth ([ʰtʰh̩]) is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
20:02:17 <myname> Emerald: it helps if you ask actual questions
20:02:53 <Emerald> On my phone it won’t let me go to the editing preferences
20:03:14 <myname> okay, i would ask about that in an android or ios channel respectively
20:06:04 <myname> i refuse to help people that don't do the bare minimum effort
20:06:29 <Emerald> Oh I tried fixing the problem
20:06:35 <int-e> Also, if you think your phone possessed, you have the wrong kind of esoteric channel.
20:06:57 <fizzie> Would these be the wiki's "editing" preferences page?
20:07:23 <Emerald> I can go to preference main page just fine
20:07:38 <Emerald> but my phone ain’t letting me go to other preferences
20:07:59 <fizzie> (Works for me on Android Chrome is all I can say about that. Though not well.)
20:08:37 <Emerald> Unfortunately, IOS isn’t android....
20:10:06 <fizzie> MediaWiki isn't particularly mobile-friendly out of the box. But odd if it doesn't work at all.
20:10:37 <int-e> fizzie: your mindreading skills are impressive
20:10:46 <Emerald> But my main editing device is my phone
20:11:17 <fizzie> No "request desktop site" or equivalent in Safari? That might work (or not).
20:12:03 <Emerald> ive tried using the link for the page
20:15:40 <fizzie> You can try some of the other skins (which you can override on a page basis by adding ?useskin=modern and such), though I imagine they don't really have functional differences.
20:17:59 <fizzie> Or add ?printable=yes, which gives a really plain view... but it still has script-driven tabs, which is probably the problem. Don't really have any likely suggestions at this point.
20:18:56 <Emerald> Well I guess I will give up since that didn’t work
20:21:30 <fizzie> Eventually we'll upgrade the MediaWiki version again, which might help. Or not.
20:24:06 <int-e> Emerald: fwiw, if you'd mentioned the wiki, you'd probably have gotten a less snarky reception
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23:34:44 <zzo38> Does any TV set have a variant pillarbox mode to extend the picture on both sides by display stuff that would ordinarily be cut off (such as hblank)?
23:51:26 <shachaf> Do you like Edward Nelson's Internal Set Theory?
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04:18:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: capture cards probaby have that, but as we no longer even have analog TV broadcast here anymore, you could only do that for video games
04:55:02 <kmc> maybe you can find an analog TV transmission on the amateur bands :)
04:55:10 <kmc> or transmit one yourself if you want
04:58:07 <lambdabot> CYVR 140400Z 30002KT 1 1/2SM FU SCT018 VV042 13/12 A2990 RMK ST4FU4 SLP127
04:59:55 <kmc> you can receive amateur TV on the 70cm band on a regular analog TV / capture card by putting it into "cable TV" mode
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05:01:36 <zzo38> kmc: Do I need some kind of antenna to receive it? What channel number would be used? Can it be received on the VCR?
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05:02:57 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, and I don't like that we don't have the analog TV broadcast (I can receive one analog channel though, which seems to be some kind of signal analyzer), so use the cable box, but it goes through the VCR, and then to the TV.
05:03:29 <kmc> I've never done it, but apparently cable channels 57-60 http://www.hamtv.com/
05:04:48 <kmc> and yes, you'd need an antenna. regular UHF TV antenna would probably work ok
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05:06:45 <zzo38> I thought though they are cable numbers and not UHF numbers
05:07:04 <kmc> or you could make a dipole for that particular band out of a scrap TV coax along the lines of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tafy51yUzQo&ab_channel=KevinLoughin
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05:09:51 <kmc> zzo38: there are UHF broadcast channels just above the 70 cm amateur band, so a broadcast TV antenna will probably receive those amateur frequencies okay. and the tuner can tune those frequencies in "cable TV" mode
05:16:41 <zzo38> I don't even know if there are any available in my area, and I do not have a antenna, anyways.
05:17:15 <zzo38> I don't like so much the cable box; you have to use their software, which has bugs, and is difficult to use with other stuff
05:18:12 <kmc> that's too bad
05:23:50 <zzo38> I have seen open source TV software, but I don't know if it can receive digital cable TV, and their remote controls don't have numbers.
05:24:45 <zzo38> The model of cable box I have has composite video out, component video out, S video out, analog and digital audio out, HDMI, IEEE 1394, USB, eSATA, and EXT IR IN.
05:27:00 <zzo38> I don't know what functions are available with these things, such as I don't know if HDMI-CEC is implemented. I do know that captions are transmitted on the component video out. Is there a way to use these things to implement an external control?
05:28:26 <kmc> I don't know
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06:37:09 <spruit11> What my language obviously needs is the ability to run shell commands!
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07:04:13 <zzo38> spruit11: Yes, and possibly popen().
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07:18:28 <spruit11> Heh. I was looking at the last Python process module and I think that total effort is half my interpreter, in LoC.
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08:35:45 <int-e> ...just another dreary Monday...
08:39:30 <spruit11> Remember: it isn't mondays you hate but capitalism.
08:39:38 <spruit11> Just saw that on the internet.
09:23:42 <esowiki> [[Filth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77483&oldid=77482 * Bananaapple * (+223) Removed ambiguity around label definition
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10:13:28 <esowiki> [[1L a]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77484&oldid=77478 * SunnyMoon * (+98) Alright, maybe logic can be incorporated. But every if statement has an unwanted side effect.
10:13:55 <esowiki> [[1L a]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77485&oldid=77484 * SunnyMoon * (+1) Oh
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10:56:34 <esowiki> [[Filth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77486&oldid=77483 * Bananaapple * (-117) Updated my interpreter, so I updated the wiki. Also I don't want to arms race with the other interpreter :)
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11:08:34 <spruit11> Yeet! I am automating my work on Egel in Egel..
11:08:57 <spruit11> Only problem, a two line perl script would do it better and shorter.
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12:01:10 <esowiki> [[Filth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77487&oldid=77486 * Bananaapple * (+3) license name typo
12:31:21 <b_jonas> spruit11: that means you're writing practical programs in egel and will learn of its deficiencies
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13:11:14 <spruit11> Moving to cmake turns out to be a net positive.
13:18:41 <spruit11> b_jonas: Well, to some extent it does what it is supposed to do. Short quick and dirty scripts kind-of work. https://github.com/egel-lang/egel/blob/master/contrib/scripts/egeldoc.eg
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15:54:38 <lambdabot> EGLL 141550Z AUTO 11006KT 050V140 9999 NCD 28/10 Q1019 NOSIG
15:54:52 <fizzie> What kind of September weather is this nonsense.
16:10:45 <fizzie> Hm. The letter combination "..fii.." looks somehow particularly ugly when the "fi" part gets ligated.
16:10:49 <lambdabot> EHDL 141555Z AUTO 10003KT 030V160 9999 NCD 29/13 Q1022 BLU
16:16:50 <b_jonas> fizzie: my opinion is still that the "fi" ligature looks ugly in most fonts, I believe that's because font creators put in such a ligature that looks obviously different from a normal "fi" to make it clear that this is a "professional" font that has such ligatures. most fonts wouldn't need such a ligature, or would need one that differes from a normal kerned "fi" only very slightly.
16:18:53 <spruit11> I've been thinking of putting out only PDFs which look like they have 70's monotype/typewriter in them.
16:19:22 <spruit11> Preferably with handwritten symbols and figures.
16:23:36 <lambdabot> LOWI 141550Z 07009KT CAVOK 26/13 Q1024 NOSIG
16:24:08 <HackEso> bogosort:Bogosort is an efficient sorting algorithm for nondeterministic Turing machines. Taneb may have invented it.
16:25:18 <Taneb> Oooh, I didn't know I might have invented htat
16:26:59 <b_jonas> if Taneb invented it, that must be one of those time-traveling inventions that he invented before he was born
16:28:38 <Taneb> When was bogosort designed?
16:29:18 <Taneb> Ah, I was definitely not alive then
16:29:39 <b_jonas> it may be one of those folklore things that are hard to trace to their origin
16:30:19 <Taneb> It may indeed have been invented by a time travelling Taneb
16:31:31 <fizzie> TTTP is short for the Time-Travelling Taneb Problem.
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17:32:10 <arseniiv> [21:19] <spruit11> Preferably with handwritten symbols and figures. => that’s inhumane!
17:33:20 <arseniiv> OTOH I like handwritten figures, but the combination of typewriter and handwriting is awfully unreadable. Mainly due to typewriter typeface but
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17:41:40 <arseniiv> I saw in Hamming’s book that the bell shape of IQ distribution is due to the way they normalize the experimental data in its definition. Damn
17:42:21 <arseniiv> (in “Art of Doing Science and Engineering”)
17:43:57 <arseniiv> I saw a couple of days ago a video about IQ being actually nice, correct and okay and that there is a ton of legit articles about it. Now I don’t know what to think
17:47:08 <arseniiv> also mysteriously that video hadn’t anything said on the abundance of strange tests pretending to measure IQ but not being such. I’d think usually people share links to those as it has been difficult to me to find a neutral (geography-agnostic etc.) one. If I don’t know what longitudes a couple of not so major cities have, I don’t have lower generall intelligence, but I saw a question with this intended solution in one of the fake tests
18:44:39 <imode> https://hastebin.com/afitakoroc.txt
18:46:04 <imode> someone explain to me how I get multi-millisecond timings for something that takes drastically less cycles.
18:48:07 <imode> maybe I'm misjudging actual work being done vs. interpreter spinup/spindown.
19:07:53 <lambdabot> CYVR 141900Z 27005KT 1SM R26R/4500FT/N R26L/5000FT/N FU BR BKN002 BKN014 OVC028 16/14 A2997 RMK FU3SF2ST2SC1 SLP150 DENSITY ALT 100FT
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19:36:14 <zzo38> spruit11: Which specific fonts do you mean? If you are using only a single fixpitch font, then, other than diagrams, plain text will do OK (and you can add form feeds between pages if you want to do).
19:39:02 <zzo38> b_jonas: Do you think the "fi" ligature is good in some fonts? (I see many fonts have bad kerning, often either too much or not enough, and the font used for web pages in Firefox on my computer has too much kerning I think, how can I adjust that?
19:46:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: in some Times-like fonts it's good, yes
19:50:17 <spruit11> zzo38: There are some nice retro fonts for latex which I downloaded once. They emulate old typewriters.
19:51:19 <spruit11> https://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/344214/use-latex-to-simulate-old-typewriter-written-texts/344272
19:51:41 <b_jonas> yay, I bought my new home computer! all the hardware will hopefully arrive this week, and then I can assemble and try it, but since there are so many parts and ways it can fail, it's unlikely that everything will actually work out within the week.
19:51:54 <b_jonas> and this doesn't count software configuration, which will take longer for me
19:53:01 <b_jonas> I think this is the most money that I have ever spent within any single day, though not by very far
20:01:18 <spruit11> In the old days even PhD students would give their texts to an administrative who would type out/typeset it and fill in the math by hand. Also, fixed bugs in the text. I like that look.
20:09:55 <zzo38> arseniiv: I think that IQ is not the same as intelligence, although it is related. (I would define IQ as the score you would earn on a ideal IQ test, where 100 is average. Intelligence cannot properly be represented by a single number anyways, I think.)
20:26:53 <arseniiv> also I found out I suck at mental arithmetic with English-spelled numbers more than in general
20:27:57 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you do mental arithmetic in more than one language? I thought basically everyone did it only in one language, even bilingual people.
20:29:18 <zzo38> spruit11: As far as I can see, that is just using existing OpenType Computer Modern fonts, but with pdfLuaLaTeX to make the variability. (I would probably have done something different: produce the DVI normally (without any random variability), and then implement the random variability in PostScript code instead.)
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20:48:44 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I think I do it in just Russian, yeah. That’s an interesting question, I’ll ask my friends how they think about themselves
20:58:16 <arseniiv> also I think I understand why eight hundred thirty five is worse than 835 at least for me: the latter is more helpful to try making something with in visual operating memory, than the words which need converting and thus pollute the operating memory (which is VERY limited unless we represent something via linking to the longer-term memory, so mnemonics, or in this case, hard practice with non-native numerals, may help)
21:01:06 <shachaf> I didn't know about `perf stat`.
21:01:15 <shachaf> Or maybe I did and I forgot.
21:01:31 <shachaf> I should add some of these things to my `time` program.
21:03:21 <zzo38> arseniiv: Yes, writing numbers with digits rather than words is better to work with.
21:12:03 <zzo38> You will take anything?
21:12:51 <arseniiv> that reminds me of a “dozenal transition problem”: if one uses 0123456789AB as base-12 digits, then when transitioning from base 10 to base 12, many literals like 389 will be ambiguous. So for example when transitioning to heximal, it would be practical to invent six, or at least five (leave 0 intact) new digits
21:13:08 <arseniiv> what digits would you propose for whatever reason?
21:13:49 <spruit11> Just kidding, with regard to the retro typesetting.
21:14:54 <zzo38> arseniiv: You can also make up an entirely new set of digits, or you can use prefixes such as 0x for hexadecimal (like in C) or 16# for hexadecimal (like in PostScript).
21:15:03 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I don't like base 12, but if you insist, then I instead suggest base 5*6, with digits 0 1 2 3 4 5 for the unit digit, Z A B C D for the sixes digit, as described in http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-11-09.2335.html
21:15:39 <b_jonas> then every number at least ends in a decimal digit, but every number that has more than one digit will have a digit that is not a decimal digit
21:16:30 <arseniiv> my unthoughtful take on heximal (using old zero): J U Ɯ Ɣ Ƨ. Cons: even has lowercase! j u ɯ ɣ ƨ
21:17:05 <b_jonas> but Ƨ looks too similar to 2 in handwriting
21:18:48 <arseniiv> zzo38: that’s good for formal languages, I agree
21:19:04 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> but Ƨ looks too similar to 2 in handwriting => unfortunately
21:21:23 <zzo38> Yes, but it does make it compatible with decimal numbers
21:21:24 <arseniiv> I thought if one wants to transition to base 6, one may inadvertently end up with base 6×10 or 10×6
21:50:09 <arseniiv> mosquitoes are very annoying. Moreso in the autumn when they should go to sleep, not pay me nightly visits. My poor fingers :(
22:14:28 <lambdabot> CYVR 142200Z 30006KT 1SM R26R/4500FT/N R26L/5500FT/N FU BKN002 OVC021 16/14 A2994 RMK FU4SF1SC3 SLP139 DENSITY ALT 200FT
22:46:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang Playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77488&oldid=75537 * InfiniteDonuts * (+49)
22:47:51 <esowiki> [[Esolang Playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77489&oldid=77488 * InfiniteDonuts * (+14)
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00:54:26 <esowiki> [[GORBITSA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77490&oldid=76305 * Hakerh400 * (+1030) add interpreter; correct computational class; add two obviously missing output modes
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04:05:16 <imode> think I found a solution to the rewriting performance problem.
04:05:53 <imode> taking inspiration from regular expression parsers, translating rewrite rules to a slim 4-instruction (or less) bytecode and then running that bytecode in a hot loop (or compiling it).
04:13:48 <imode> I think earlier I was hoping to "gun it" with some low-effort method but those don't really cut it anymore.
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05:15:48 <lambdabot> CYVR 150500Z 28005KT 1 1/2SM -RA FU OVC065 16/15 A3001 RMK FU4SC4 -RA INTMT SLP164 DENSITY ALT 100FT
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06:08:38 <b_jonas> `pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/primate-checkmate/
06:08:39 <HackEso> pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/primate-checkmate/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
06:15:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Quelklef * New user account
06:18:08 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77491&oldid=77456 * Quelklef * (+212) Introduce myself
06:22:10 <esowiki> [[3.725254969642999e-321]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77492 * Quelklef * (+296) Created page with "3.725254969642999e-321 is a simple stack-based esolang created by [[User:Quelklef]] wherein the stack must only ever consist of valid IEEE 754 64-bit NaN values, or the interp..."
06:23:15 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77493&oldid=77468 * Quelklef * (+29) Add language 3.725254969642999e-321
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09:08:28 <kspalaiologos> I've been working on asm2bf a bit, got around to implementing the brainfuck kernel idea
09:09:17 <kspalaiologos> the bootloader loads the LBA(2) to memory at 0x500, which contains a small brainfuck interpreter which loads 4G descriptors for data and loads the brainfuck kernel file (the interpreter is RLE-aware) on 1M and puts the tape on 16M
09:09:41 <kspalaiologos> the brainfuck code loads the driver at 0x900 by `<'ing to the left and poking raw bytes there
09:10:00 <kspalaiologos> then sets up an interrupt hnadler on int 1Ch which then fires and starts executing the loaded machine code
09:10:16 <kspalaiologos> the driver put there by brainfuck code then modifies the brainfuck interpreter on 0x500 to add three instructions to it
09:10:42 <kspalaiologos> `!' pushes current cell value to the virtual I/O stack, `?' pops one, and `#' flushes it
09:10:43 <HackEso> !'? No such file or directory
09:11:12 <kspalaiologos> after the virtual i/o stack is flushed, the driver code called by the interpreter which has been modded before starts checking the first value on the stack
09:11:55 <esowiki> [[Tailor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77494 * LyricLy * (+10071) pandoc conversion from github readme.md
09:12:28 <kspalaiologos> and then pops off big endian 16-bit endian values, concatenates them to 32-bit register values, pops off the interrupt number, modifies self to actually call it, preserves state, ticks the interrupt, pops the state and saves the post-interrupt state to the I/O queue
09:12:51 <kspalaiologos> so far everything works, but the BIOS code is bugged somehow and probably smashes the stack
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10:19:19 <imode> shame, that seemed interesting.
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12:23:16 <b_jonas> Is there a program that can emit hard seeking disk noises as an SSD does radnom access? I like being able to hear the disk usage.
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12:56:33 <fizzie> Hmm, I wonder how hard it would be to do that in hardware, by building something that makes noises (with a speaker, not a mock drive head or anything) and put that in line with the disk activity LED.
12:56:37 <fizzie> (A program is probably more reasonable, just wondering.)
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13:40:24 <b_jonas> fizzie: one problem is that it might not even make sense to ask how much an SSD is seeking, and/or hard to get that info, or it will behave very differently from a HDD due to how the kernel will optimize it differently. but you don't need to directly tie it to seeking, you could use some other composite metric that makes more sense.
13:41:29 <b_jonas> fizzie: as for making noise with speaker, someone has probably already recorded hard disk seeking noises with a microphone and published it. but you could also just use an unused old slow small dummy hard disk.
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14:33:30 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77495&oldid=77491 * Aspwil * (+212)
14:43:44 <esowiki> [[Sabdt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77496 * Aspwil * (+241) created page
14:58:20 <esowiki> [[Sym]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77497 * Sugarfi * (+3920) Sym is a small, Turing complete language based on symbol replacement.
15:00:07 <esowiki> [[Sabdt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77498&oldid=77496 * Aspwil * (+648)
15:00:19 <esowiki> [[Sym]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77499&oldid=77497 * Sugarfi * (+3)
15:08:34 <esowiki> [[Sabdt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77500&oldid=77498 * Aspwil * (+350)
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17:02:11 <spruit11> I wanted to write some C++ software. Hilarity ensued.
17:03:02 <esowiki> [[Sabdt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77503&oldid=77502 * Aspwil * (-6) captilization
17:04:08 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77504&oldid=77493 * Aspwil * (+12) /* S */
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17:10:49 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77505&oldid=77339 * Aspwil * (+323) added Sabdt hello world
17:17:17 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77506&oldid=77505 * Aspwil * (+2) /* [Sabdt] */ fixed sabdt link
17:21:58 <esowiki> [[User:Aspwil]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77507 * Aspwil * (+224) Created page with "welcome to my page, have a cookie I am a person, the creator of [[sabdt]] I recently escaped from the closet dimension and will soon ascend to my throne as the kind of missi..."
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19:52:50 <lambdabot> CYVR 151900Z 33004KT 2SM FU OVC049 19/14 A3012 RMK FU4SC4 SLP202 DENSITY ALT 300FT
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20:18:18 <arseniiv> what approaches to extendable recursive types do you use in Haskell (and in other languages)?
20:18:40 <arseniiv> oh well, I shouldn’t have asked, gtg
20:21:39 <rain1> extensible types...
20:21:55 <rain1> i actually don't know what that would be
20:22:11 <rain1> the whole thing about types afaict is that they are closed worlds
20:22:51 <rain1> you can do stuff like Data Types a la Carte maybe that's what you mean
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20:43:12 <spruit11> Blerch. Wanting to have something like a popen forces me to drop down to C/file handles everywhere in the os abstraction, I think.
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21:40:58 <lambdabot> CYVR 152138Z 31010KT 6SM FU BKN055 OVC150 OVC210 21/15 A3010 RMK FU3SC4AC1CI1 CI TR SLP194 DENSITY ALT 600FT
21:45:17 <lambdabot> EHDL 152125Z AUTO VRB02KT 9999 BKN110 OVC300 19/15 Q1018 BLU
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23:20:18 <esowiki> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77512&oldid=77511 * OsmineYT * (+115)
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03:26:22 <zzo38> Why does the throwing distance table in GURPS use the reciprocal of the weight ratio if it is more than 1, but the square root of the reciprocal if it is less than 1?
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06:44:20 <esowiki> [[Serenity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77515&oldid=76341 * Hakerh400 * (+0) /* Instructions */
07:28:11 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77516&oldid=76684 * Dion * (+1642)
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07:56:52 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * X64Mayhem * New user account
08:06:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77517&oldid=77495 * X64Mayhem * (+125) /* Introductions */
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09:02:30 <cpressey> All the yaks are staring me in the face.
09:02:38 <arseniiv> rain1: exactly. There are several approaches in the current Haskell like that one (I think tagless final encoding is another?) and I’m interested how well they are used etc.
09:02:55 <int-e> cpressey: the closest one
09:03:33 <int-e> cpressey: but from a safe distance?
09:03:48 <int-e> I realize I know nothing about yak-shaving.
09:03:53 <fungot> int-e: that the committee do and for organising the election, because, guess what, it shows to the fnord intelligence that is as efficient and effective as possible.
09:04:14 <int-e> Ugh, sounds political... EU? UK?
09:04:18 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl* youtube
09:04:45 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
09:04:50 <int-e> fungot: what does this do?
09:04:50 <fungot> int-e: is it possible for one of your b100d and a beating heart tells in me, even the idiots. they are the most delicious bunches,
09:05:42 <int-e> fungot: don't end on a comma like that
09:05:42 <fungot> int-e: but it is your journey i am so over this puzzle,
09:05:58 <int-e> fungot: did they teach you nothing in grammar school?
09:05:58 <fungot> int-e: an old colonel lost, but a new brother gained. together they will ascend, each time you must be adventurin'.
09:06:51 <int-e> . o O ( ^style urandom )
09:08:32 <arseniiv> also in languages with less of a type system. I tried making some stuff with mypy (one of typecheckers for Python) but usually I can’t express things. Though mypy is really neat, it can express unions, self-types and “overloaded” functions (as Python doesn’t have overloads; but you can make several alternative type signatures for a function) and also has Delphi-esque “type of class” thing. Once I used unions for something lik
09:08:32 <arseniiv> e à la carte thing, but I think I couldn’t tie the knot or something; there were some problems if not this one
09:11:26 <arseniiv> I know nothing about yak shaving too
09:12:09 <arseniiv> aren’t they sufficiently sheep-like in this regard?
09:12:09 <rain1> i think knot tying is possible but everything needs to be point free since there's no type level lambda
09:14:33 * cpressey starts preparing some post-it notes that read "Shaggy because not shaved yet because reasons" instead
09:15:12 <int-e> cpressey: do those go on the yaks?
09:25:38 <cpressey> I tried to look into what "final tagless" and "free monad interpreter" and these other things were, the other day.
09:26:31 <cpressey> I guess there were a few interesting things I picked up, but none of it had much appeal to me
09:29:38 <cpressey> The general idea of "evidence types" is a good one.
09:32:11 <cpressey> But it seems like it would be sometimes be difficult to apply. I'm writing a compiler, the language has a fairly complex AST. Some nodes at the leaves of the AST represent names. Those names can be unresolved, or resolved to refer to particular symbols.
09:33:06 <cpressey> It would be great to give them a different type if they were resolved, but, then the AST has to be able to contain two types of name nodes. Should the AST also get a different type?
09:33:25 <cpressey> If not, then it's not very much different from a sum type, which I'm already using.
09:33:43 <int-e> @google "evidence types"
09:34:12 <int-e> Fun. I guess that code bit-rotted.
09:34:43 <cpressey> "evidence type": instead of checking "is this valid", return Just a typed value representing a valid instance of the thing if it is valid, or Nothing otherwise
09:34:52 <cpressey> a.k.a a solution to "boolean blindness"
09:40:28 <int-e> so it was not connected to final tagless nor free monads?
09:40:53 <int-e> (*those* two are, to my mind, at best loosely connected)
09:41:21 <cpressey> Well, final tagless seems to be mainly a version of evidence types where, for each effect, there's an evidence type witnessing the fact that this function may use that effect
09:41:33 <int-e> (in that the expression problem comes up when you want to make a free monad extensible)
09:41:41 <cpressey> Or rather, evidence typeclasses, I suppose
09:42:02 <cpressey> Free monads is more or less something else entirely, yes
09:48:33 <cpressey> The thing with the expression problem is, y'know, I really don't mind recompiling if I have to.
09:50:10 <cpressey> I guess, in a lot of language ecosystems, people still do want to distribute libraries as opaque binary blobs, but.
09:53:19 <int-e> I don't know, isn't the whole expression problem just an admission that deep down, we want OOP ;-)
09:54:56 <int-e> (I'm semiserious about this. The problem is one that in OO languages would be solved by inheritance, plus some visitors.)
09:55:30 <cpressey> Yeah, a lot of this has the feel of typed functional programming trying to play catch-up to OOP.
09:56:16 <int-e> And as for its motivation... I think it still comes up when you want to provide a base tree type in a library and let users extend it with new node types.
10:46:32 <spruit11> Hmm, there was something like a dual to FP's expression problem in OO.
11:00:49 <spruit11> Anyway, though the expression problem exists there are usually okay work arounds to the problem.
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11:23:55 <int-e> spruit11: I believe the OO version of the problem is that it's hard to add new operations.
11:24:54 <int-e> (if you follow the pattern of having one method per operation that is overloaded in every inherited object that needs its own behavior)
11:26:19 <int-e> And it doesn't completely go away if you implement the visitor pattern (fold + traverse ;-) ) because now the visitor has a method for each child class, so that becomes hard to extend.
11:27:14 <int-e> programming is hard
11:30:38 <spruit11> Right, but what is never mentioned is that you can sometimes defensively work around it, right? I find that a bit of a shame.
11:33:22 <int-e> that's not buzzword-compatible.
11:33:47 <int-e> hard to write papers about too
11:34:07 <int-e> "we did the boring thing and nothing exciting ever happened"
11:36:05 <int-e> https://xkcd.com/1827/ is relevant
11:41:28 <int-e> (For every success story about a new programming paradigm, how many failures are there? We usually don't know.)
11:46:03 <spruit11> Yah, it's hard to find honest academics.
11:46:44 <spruit11> Usually, you're supposed to figure out all drawbacks to some approach yourself.
11:46:58 <int-e> I don't think it's about honesty per se.
11:52:37 <int-e> There's almost no incentive for writing papers about failures... for the people who fail. I'm sure there are researchers on project management, software engineering and the like who lament that situation... they'd love to analyse failed projects.
11:53:38 <spruit11> I don't care about motives, only about outcome.
11:54:00 <spruit11> It's annoying if you always need to guess what isn't said.
11:57:49 <int-e> Well, sadly, the best place to find honest academics is at the bar near an academic conference... casual and off the record.
11:58:57 <int-e> And most of the publications don't lie either, but their scope is heavily biased towards success.
11:59:32 <int-e> Oh did I mention that many venues have page limits for papers which means the authors have to decide which aspects of their work are most interesting and relevant?
12:00:03 <spruit11> Mwa, I just take industry as a good lead. They're good at shaking out what's useful.
12:02:38 <int-e> and then there's the problem of citations... papers in academia are basically worthless unless they're cited by others
12:04:16 <int-e> industry... yeah that works as long as they don't try to sell you stuff (<cough/>blockchain)
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13:56:48 <arseniiv> hm industry hm that’s suboptimal still
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14:08:15 <Sgeo> Stumbled on 2/0, a fan-made sequel to 1/0. Attempted to read it, abandoned it quickly.
14:08:49 <Sgeo> Unless it becomes good eventually, I don't recommend it
14:08:59 <Sgeo> I think it might be intentionally annoying
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14:33:40 <Sgeo> ?? was referring to 2/0, the webcomic
14:33:40 <lambdabot> was referring to 2/0, the webcomic
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14:53:25 <esowiki> [[Filth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77518&oldid=77487 * Bananaapple * (+191) remove some ambiguity
15:18:49 <cpressey> Nonstandard, didactic, coherent. Pick any two
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15:39:33 <int-e> cpressey: doesn't didactic imply coherent...
15:40:29 <cpressey> int-e: Not when the person being didactic has a decidedly nonstandard view of the world...
15:41:44 <spruit11> Ah, that rules out most academics again.
15:44:23 <int-e> spruit11: I can't hear you from the top of my ivory tower.
15:44:49 <int-e> spruit11: But ducking makes yoy a bigger target ;)
15:45:31 <spruit11> int-e: I can't hear you either because the mud down here gets into my ears.
15:46:59 <int-e> Oh "yoy", brilliant.
15:52:09 <HackEso> \\\¯\\\\\\\(\\\°\\\_\\\o\\\)\\\/\\\¯\\\?\\\ \\\¯\\\\\\\(\\\°\\\_\\\o\\\)\\\/\\\¯
15:52:25 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
15:52:35 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
15:52:53 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
15:55:00 <HackEso> whois? No such file or directory
15:55:05 <HackEso> ??(1hackeso) - no description
15:56:08 <arseniiv> I need 100 hours in a day and preferrably not more than 1/3 of them for sleep, to make room for all interesting things, and also for all necessary things
15:56:37 <HackEso> @eval: nothing appropriate.
15:56:46 <HackEso> @ask: nothing appropriate.
15:57:23 <spruit11> Heh, I am so not interested in the difference between file descriptors (ints) and file handlers (FILE*) but I have the feeling I should find out more.
15:57:46 <arseniiv> there are two kinds of them in the same OS? wow
15:58:31 <esowiki> [[Talk:SpaghettiScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77519 * UltimateProGrammer * (+597) Add note about implementation
15:58:38 <spruit11> C/C++ is messy. I can't find the abstractions I need in C++, dropped down to C, now I find there are two abstractions there. Just to make life convenient.
15:58:59 <spruit11> I think someone else got it right though but I need to get a bit more assurance.
15:59:29 <spruit11> Just hack something usually works out fine too!
16:00:09 <arseniiv> like, what to do instead of descriptors/hadles?
16:00:43 <spruit11> Heh? I am just not very sure how safe it is to mix them.
16:01:17 <arseniiv> ah, then it’s how I understood what you said
16:02:54 <spruit11> I think a FILE* is probably a file descriptor with some extra buffering. Could be okay to mix. Unsure.
16:03:24 <spruit11> Watch me reading GCC code next.. :/
16:03:51 <arseniiv> yeah I’d be anxious with that situation, as if you even experiment with them and they seem to be the same, or in a simple one-to-one relation, then there might be a rare case when they aren’t, so the only hope to cover the general situation is to find the root
16:03:55 <cpressey> spruit11: that is more or less the case. Just fflush() the FILE * before using the file descriptor inside it.
16:07:08 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77520&oldid=77440 * UltimateProGrammer * (+77) Add count down
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16:17:04 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77521&oldid=77520 * UltimateProGrammer * (+194) Add Converting code from other languages section
16:20:28 <b_jonas> spruit11: darn it, I should help you with the C++ right? give me a moment
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16:22:26 <spruit11> b_jonas: Uh, no? I am comfortable thinking this over. It's not a big change, just a thing which will take me some time to get to the stage where I feel comfortable I got it right.
16:22:43 <b_jonas> spruit11: sure, but I think you're missing a few things
16:23:43 <spruit11> Just a bit annoyed that C++ doesn't offer a number of abstractions I find are basic to Unix programming. I need pipes and a shell.
16:24:34 <b_jonas> spruit11: so normally if you want to use both an std::ostream and a FILE on the same descriptor, then yes, you have to flush between them. but if you're using gcc on linux, then libstdc++ knows enough about glibc that they share their buffer, so you don't need that. this is documented in https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-10.2.0/libstdc++/manual/manual/io_and_c.html#std.io.c.FILE
16:25:14 <b_jonas> but that works only on the three standard handles I think
16:25:20 <spruit11> THere's no portable means of getting a file handle from a stream, I gathered?
16:26:01 <b_jonas> spruit11: there's no portable way indeed, but there is a nonportable way on linux
16:26:46 <spruit11> Anyway, I could do it but it would become a mess fast I think. I am dropping to C.
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16:32:13 <b_jonas> but why do you need a file handle from a stream? I thought you need a C++ iostream from a file descriptor, to operate on an iostream after you do a popen
16:33:30 <b_jonas> I don't really see how to do that. https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-10.2.0/libstdc++/manual/manual/ext_io.html#manual.ext.io.filebuf_derived is supposed to tell, but it doesn't seem to say whether closing that stream will close the underlying FILE, and it's hard to use this without that.
16:34:32 <b_jonas> you could probably write your own class derived from std::streambuf that handles this though, and that's more portable
16:36:42 <spruit11> Uh, popen doesn't seem to solve what I need/want. I need some exec, probably. Lemme look.
16:39:18 <b_jonas> basically stdio and C++ streams are so weird that sometimes you want your own buffering abstractions
16:40:35 <spruit11> Right, I could do popen for now but preferably I would also obtain a PID.
16:41:33 <spruit11> Dunno. Still in the reading stage and just following what Haskell and Python do.
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17:16:32 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CaptainFoxtrot * New user account
17:21:08 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77522&oldid=77517 * CaptainFoxtrot * (+189)
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17:59:55 <esowiki> [[User:DeybisMelendez]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77523&oldid=75705 * DeybisMelendez * (+405) More personal information
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20:27:17 <esowiki> [[InterpretMe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77524&oldid=74792 * Cortex * (+233) Added python 3 interpreter
20:28:24 <esowiki> [[PythoLambda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77525&oldid=48920 * Cortex * (+102) Added python 3 interpreter
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23:06:05 <esowiki> [[User talk:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77526&oldid=76842 * OsmineYT * (+160)
23:10:06 <esowiki> [[User talk:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77527&oldid=77526 * OsmineYT * (+68)
23:11:24 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * OsmineYT * uploaded "[[File:Nou.png]]": File created
23:13:50 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT/Sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77529 * OsmineYT * (+18) Created page with "<color:"#ccff00";>"
23:18:29 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77530&oldid=76840 * OsmineYT * (+167)
23:19:07 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77531&oldid=77529 * OsmineYT * (+14)
23:19:45 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77532&oldid=77531 * OsmineYT * (+5)
23:20:32 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77533&oldid=77532 * OsmineYT * (+3)
23:21:16 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77534&oldid=77533 * OsmineYT * (-2)
23:21:39 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77535&oldid=77534 * OsmineYT * (+0)
23:26:04 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77536&oldid=77535 * OsmineYT * (+26)
23:26:23 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77537&oldid=77536 * OsmineYT * (-1)
23:26:38 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77538&oldid=77537 * OsmineYT * (+1)
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23:26:53 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77539&oldid=77538 * OsmineYT * (+1)
23:28:51 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77540&oldid=77539 * OsmineYT * (+32)
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23:31:47 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77541&oldid=77540 * OsmineYT * (-5)
23:32:09 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77542&oldid=77541 * OsmineYT * (+1)
23:32:32 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77543&oldid=77542 * OsmineYT * (+0)
23:32:54 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77544&oldid=77543 * OsmineYT * (+1)
23:33:50 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77545&oldid=77544 * OsmineYT * (-29)
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23:54:47 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lgkmkd * New user account
00:18:45 <fizzie> Walked past a Apple hardware second-hand/repair shop the other day, it was called "Secondbyte" and their logo (the letter 'o') was an apple with two bites taken out of it (one on each side).
01:20:05 <arseniiv> I played a bit in 19edo in 13edt, yay
01:20:56 <arseniiv> <fizzie> and their logo (the letter 'o') was an apple with two bites taken out of it (one on each side). => lol :D
01:23:23 <arseniiv> ↑↑ and both on a conventional 12edo keyboard. That’s pretty weird on the senses but I guess majority of xenmusicians uses those fairly often, as non-12edo-keyboards aren’t still that ubiquitous × cheap
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01:41:12 <zzo38> A digital piano I have allows adjusting the temperament, although always with twelve notes in one octave.
02:15:34 <shachaf> What sorts of adjustments does it allow?
02:22:23 <zzo38> You can adjust tuning up and down, and you can select from a set of different temperaments, including equal temperament without a tuning curve (which I think makes it sound better when you are selecting a sound other than the piano sound; the piano sound is better with the tuning curve), Pythagorean, and a few others. For the non-equal kinds you can also select which note is the base note.
02:40:25 <esowiki> [[Acrostic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77546&oldid=71932 * JWinslow23 * (+370) Added Python implementation & truth machine example
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03:27:50 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77547&oldid=77514 * Tetrapyronia * (+983)
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07:09:32 <lambdabot> KSEA 170653Z 15005KT 6SM HZ FU OVC050 18/16 A3004 RMK AO2 SLP178 T01830156
07:14:28 <lambdabot> KPAE 170653Z AUTO 15008KT 3SM HZ FU CLR 18/16 A3006 RMK AO2 SLP177 T01830156
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11:52:11 <arseniiv> zzo38: nice. I’ve even forgotten that classical pianos are tuned slightly off 12edo to sound nicer because their strings are a bit inharmonic, so makes perfect sense to make that a default for an electric classical piano. Now I wonder if my hardware synthesizer does something like that for its piano presets (they all are presumably sampled, not synthesized in a more traditional way like FM)
11:53:31 <arseniiv> unfortunately all my tuning-able VSTs are not pianos. I need to revisit xenwiki to make sure I ain’t missing anything
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12:42:03 <esowiki> [[Funge-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77548&oldid=65665 * DGCK81LNN * (+32) /* Instructions */ & and ~ reflect on EOF
12:42:54 <esowiki> [[Funge-98]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77549&oldid=77548 * DGCK81LNN * (-2) /* Instructions */
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14:18:12 <esowiki> [[Chef]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77550&oldid=68303 * Keymaker * (+128) Added a link.
14:19:25 <esowiki> [[Acrostic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77551&oldid=77546 * Keymaker * (+2) Linked truth-machine.
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15:47:36 <lambdabot> CYVR 171500Z 19003KT 2 1/2SM FU BKN025 OVC041 16/16 A3004 RMK SC5SC3 SLP174 DENSITY ALT 100FT
15:51:32 <zzo38> arseniiv: You could try other programs, such as Csound
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16:42:12 <esowiki> [[User:SunnyMoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77552&oldid=77467 * SunnyMoon * (-2) 1L_a
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20:54:49 <esowiki> [[Filth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77553&oldid=77518 * Bananaapple * (+1873) Added programming in Filth section
20:55:10 <esowiki> [[Filth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77554&oldid=77553 * Bananaapple * (+0)
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22:07:30 <Sgeo_> :( at Internet connection
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22:35:51 <fizzie> My internet connection has been having a weird issue for the last month or three.
22:35:59 <fizzie> Specifically, the write direction of long-running TCP connections seems to mysteriously stall for 5-10 seconds or so, every now and then; usually I notice it when typing in a SSH connection, maybe once or twice an hour. My wife's Skype calls seem to also do the same (others can't hear her), with about the same frequency and duration.
22:36:30 <fizzie> When I've tried to do ICMP pings to monitor, there hasn't been really any packet loss or extra delay. And I've not noticed any problems at all with Google Meet video calls, which are presumably going over UDP (since all HTTPS to Google servers from Chrome tends to use QUIC). It seems to be just TCP, and just egress.
22:36:41 <fizzie> I should talk to my ISP, but even though their support is above-average, I'm a little worried that's still too vague for a report. I've been writing up a networking monitoring program that would do regular pings (to two Internet endpoints and one local) x (over IPv4 and IPv4) x (with TCP and UDP), in the hopes of getting some hard data. I'm expecting to see problems with the two Internet endpoints but
22:36:47 <fizzie> not the local one, and only for the pings over a TCP connection. With no particular expectations for the v4/v6 distinction, but might as well be thorough.
22:37:22 <fizzie> Uh, s/and IPv4/and IPv6/, otherwise that sentence no sense makes.
22:49:21 <shachaf> Speaking of TCP, I was wondering the other day whether there's any reason programs couldn't get/send TCP datagrams directly from/to the OS instead of relying on its implementation of TCP.
22:49:53 <shachaf> I mean, a security reason or anything. You can do raw IP but that requires taking over an interface and being root and so on.
23:03:07 <zzo38> Using the operating system's TCP is helpful so that netstat can work, and for some other purposes too
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23:09:36 <shachaf> But there might be reasons to avoid it.
23:09:54 <shachaf> Are things like epoll pretty much only necessary because of TCP?
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23:39:04 <t20kdc> shachaf: The reason that programs can't send TCP datagrams directly from/to the OS is probably because there's usually no reason to. (It'd have to be checked to ensure the port/etc. match up with what's supposed to be used.) As for epoll, it's for handling large numbers of FDs. Not necessarily sockets.
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23:40:08 <shachaf> Sure, but in what other situation do you need to monitor a large number of file descriptors?
23:40:11 <t20kdc> shachaf: But even if it is sockets, a hundred UDP sockets still need to be checked for incoming datagrams.
23:40:42 <shachaf> Why would you have a hundred UDP sockets, though?
23:41:32 <shachaf> I guess a server listening on a hundred ports?
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23:46:05 <t20kdc> shachaf: Something to note is that epoll allows supplying a small amount of user data with each file descriptor. Enough to store a pointer to whatever "object" structure represents, say, a specific session, so the user application doesn't have to perform the lookup.
23:46:54 <t20kdc> So combine that with any theoretical gains from not using sendto/recvfrom and it may be beneficial to use a more TCP-like model with UDP sockets.
23:47:25 <t20kdc> (i.e. one 'server' UDP socket and several 'connection' UDP sockets)
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23:47:48 <shachaf> How would that work? Listening on different ports?
23:48:16 <t20kdc> The connect syscall is usable on UDP sockets. It just limits what they receive to packets from a specific target arriving at a specific local port.
23:48:29 <t20kdc> From a specific remote port.
23:48:53 <shachaf> I'm not sure what the benefit of moving that all into the kernel is.
23:51:33 <t20kdc> Also not sure. That said the kernel is doing filtering anyway because of the bound port.
23:52:58 <t20kdc> So I guess the answer is to benchmark it and see what happens?
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01:20:05 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77555&oldid=77343 * JWinslow23 * (+193) Added Acrostic truth machine
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03:07:46 <esowiki> [[SCREAMCODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77556&oldid=77382 * Baguette * (+73) Added reference implementation
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06:21:39 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MatthiasChan * New user account
06:24:31 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77557&oldid=77522 * MatthiasChan * (+218) /* Introductions */ Introduction
06:28:01 <esowiki> [[Cheems]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77558 * MatthiasChan * (+1098) Cheems# base page, needs upgrades obviously
06:28:43 <esowiki> [[Cheems]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77559&oldid=77558 * MatthiasChan * (+15) lets see if this fixes that
06:29:14 <esowiki> [[Cheems]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77560&oldid=77559 * MatthiasChan * (-15) fixed again night
06:29:32 <esowiki> [[Cheems]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77561&oldid=77560 * MatthiasChan * (+12) re-fixed now
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07:00:54 <esowiki> [[Cheems]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77562&oldid=77561 * MatthiasChan * (+163) Pointers have been added. Langauge is now ready for usage
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07:05:21 <esowiki> [[IBC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77563&oldid=75185 * MatthiasChan * (+187) Added my Plans
07:10:21 <esowiki> [[Cheems]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77564&oldid=77562 * MatthiasChan * (+71)
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08:53:37 <int-e> ...they killed the matrix...
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08:54:12 <int-e> Oh I guess I exhausted my quota.
08:54:22 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck* ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
08:55:03 <int-e> You people are DoSing me by not talking to fungot ;-)
08:56:51 <cpressey> fungot: I didn't know you had a quota.
08:56:51 <fungot> cpressey: what a surprise, you are dragging your schizophrenic hopping around like a rag of souls begins. the reckoning. this affects a belt of meteors, called the medium in which the cards present some convenience.
08:57:19 <cpressey> Uh... yes. I suppose I deserved that.
08:57:39 <int-e> cpressey: It stops replying to the same person after 5 messages.
08:58:04 <int-e> fungot: Heya, long time no seen.
08:58:04 <fungot> int-e: to the left is that house shape you've seen everything! s)(e will be gone soon future i that wwould be there in her final moment. but then it is probably you! that would have been a great point for a transition. you wonder what it does?
08:59:04 <int-e> cpressey: Even when those 5 messages are spread out over hours or days :)
09:00:09 <int-e> Hmm. cabal-install 3.4 will remove sandboxes. I guess I really have to figure out how to live without those soonish :-/
09:00:21 <int-e> I hate progress. :P
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09:20:00 <cpressey> tfw the code review is full of spaghetti but you don't want to say anything because you don't want to get dragged into an unending nightmare discussion that will break your brain so you just click "approve"
09:23:38 <cpressey> on a happier note, i'm trying to use cabal for the first time in a project (i have been using my hand-rolled luddite hugs-supporting scripts until now)
09:23:58 <cpressey> I should be using the "v2" commands I guess
09:24:03 <cpressey> I should also be using Text instead of String
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09:27:26 <int-e> if you're learning cabal-install, yes, you should definitely learn the v2 commands (which are already the default in cabal-install 3.2, I think?).
09:28:48 <int-e> changing is harder... I have a working mental model for the old commands :/
09:29:24 <int-e> (and, also importantly, I have no problem with the old commands that needs solving)
09:30:10 <int-e> So my only motivation to switch is... that the old commands will be removed.
09:32:21 <cpressey> The version of cabal-install that is provided by Ubuntu 18.04 seems to be... 1.24.0.2. Which sounds old. Which is pretty typical for Ubuntu packages actually.
09:32:50 <cpressey> I'll figure out how to install a bleeding edge version soon.
09:33:16 <cpressey> Or at least a badly bruised edge.
09:33:52 <int-e> that brings back memories ;)
09:36:13 <int-e> Hmm, 2.0.0.0 was released 2017-08-07... feels like ages ago.
09:36:47 <int-e> I guess there's some excuse for an April 2018 distribution to stick to an earlier version.
09:53:04 <cpressey> "cabal: This version of 'cabal-install' does not support the 'uninstall' operation. It will likely be implemented at some point in the future"
09:53:58 <cpressey> I just started "cabal install cabal-install", I wonder where I will end up
09:54:18 <cpressey> "Warning: Note that reinstalls are always dangerous. Continuing anyway..."
09:54:38 <int-e> it should end up in ~/.cabal/bin ... possibly with a symlink in ~/bin
09:54:44 <int-e> you're not running this as root, I hope
09:55:23 <cpressey> "Building Cabal-3.0.2.0..." ok, so far so good
09:55:48 <int-e> oh, interesting... is your ghc (base) too old for 3.2? :)
09:56:08 <cpressey> It may be, I noticed the other day it's a minor version or two behind
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09:57:59 <int-e> mm. no, that's not it, unless the ghc is older than 8.0
09:58:56 <cpressey> It's ghc 8.0.smth where I think smth is 2
09:59:59 <cpressey> I'm just happy for cabal-install to be not-ancient
10:02:01 <int-e> Ah, here's why... https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lukko-0.1.1.2/lukko.cabal
10:02:08 <int-e> "cabal-version: 2.2"
10:02:21 <int-e> and cabal-install 3.2 depends on lukko
10:04:05 <cpressey> I see "Downloading the latest package list from hackage.haskell.org" still doesn't show a progress bar. That always annoyed me.
10:04:49 <cpressey> It's building my project now though, looks a little nicer
10:04:58 <cpressey> and has succeeded. so that's good
10:07:14 <cpressey> The dist directory structure has altered considerably. That's less good
10:07:42 <int-e> Oh and lukko depends on Cabal 2.2 because it's dual-licensed. Such fun. ("license: GPL-2.0-or-later AND BSD-3-Clause" -- the "AND" is not supported in earlier versions)
10:07:44 <cpressey> I'll need to "install" the built binary somewhere before running automated tests on it I guess
10:08:35 <cpressey> I never really understood dual licensing
10:09:57 <int-e> As a user you get to pick one of the licenses.
10:10:03 <cpressey> "You have the option of distributing this under license X or license Y" when license X doesn't prohibit adding licence Y on top
10:10:14 <cpressey> Just distribute under X, let people add Y if they feel like
10:10:44 <cpressey> In this instance X=BSD3, Y=GPL2
10:11:10 <int-e> AIUI, the non-endorsement clause of the 3 clause BSD license is not compatible with GPL.
10:11:32 -!- iscordian[m] has changed nick to Discordian[m].
10:11:35 <int-e> At least if you ask a lawyer.
10:12:35 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77565&oldid=70784 * Void * (+25) Add author github link
10:13:20 <esowiki> [[KeyVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77566&oldid=76127 * Void * (+25) Add author github link
10:14:58 <cpressey> So if I redistribute Lukko under the GPL am I then allowed to use the name of its author to endorse it?
10:15:31 <int-e> Well you're not bound by the clause in the BSD license then.
10:15:40 <int-e> Which means... maybe.
10:16:20 <int-e> You're still constrained by general laws.
10:16:26 <int-e> And, if you are so inclined, ethics. :P
10:18:52 <cpressey> Presumably if no-endorsing-clause was a dealbreaker for the author, they wouldn't allow the GPL option. So they could have just weakened it to BSD 2-clause.
10:19:56 <int-e> But that's their choice.
10:20:17 <cpressey> Yeah, and it was my choice to release the last version of ILLGOL under 8 different licenses
10:20:45 <int-e> Personally I prefer the MIT license anyway... less clumsy to adopt for personal use.
10:21:45 <int-e> . o O ( "Regents of the University of California" )
10:22:11 <cpressey> I release a lot of stuff under the Unlicense, partly because I don't want to bother updating copyright years
10:22:48 <cpressey> I've gotten flak for choosing it, because some people think it's not valid in Germany or something
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10:23:05 <cpressey> I think that's Germany's problem rather than mine, frankly
10:24:41 <int-e> There is no way to relinquish copyrights in Germany.
10:26:06 <int-e> So yes, the license text looks hard to apply there.
10:29:15 <int-e> But apparently it's now OSI-approved.
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11:17:58 <cpressey> Not sure about this cabal upgrade. `cabal build` is ok, then `cabal install` tries to build again, but can't find interfaces
11:21:06 <cpressey> Also `cabal build` doesn't detect changes in my source files.
11:21:14 <cpressey> I am violating some assumption it's making, not sure what though
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13:28:17 <esowiki> [[Cheems]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77567&oldid=77564 * MatthiasChan * (+81) fix again + reminder
13:33:32 <esowiki> [[Cheems]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77568&oldid=77567 * MatthiasChan * (-92)
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14:06:28 <esowiki> [[Cheems]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77569&oldid=77568 * MatthiasChan * (+44)
14:11:02 <esowiki> [[Cheems]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77570&oldid=77569 * MatthiasChan * (-21)
14:12:05 <esowiki> [[Cheems]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77571&oldid=77570 * MatthiasChan * (+50)
14:14:01 <esowiki> [[Cheems]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77572&oldid=77571 * MatthiasChan * (+85)
14:19:16 <esowiki> [[Cheems]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77573&oldid=77572 * MatthiasChan * (+100)
14:22:19 <esowiki> [[Cheems]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77574&oldid=77573 * MatthiasChan * (+22)
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14:47:27 <arseniiv> instead of converting between cent representation and frequency ratio representation when the user chooses so, might it be a bit more accurate to store both and manipulate them independently?
14:47:44 <arseniiv> the first one is in logarithmic domain
14:49:17 <arseniiv> so conversions back and forth may be bad. But maybe they may go out of sync when calculating something long independently?
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16:44:14 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Remolacha * New user account
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18:43:25 <lambdabot> CYVR 181800Z 35002KT 1SM R08L/P6000FT/N R08R/P6000FT/N BR FU FEW007 FEW020 OVC037 18/17 A2989 RMK SF1SC1SC6 SLP122 DENSITY ALT 400FT
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21:17:54 <esowiki> [[QTTRPG]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77576 * MatthiasChan * (+1169) Created the Page, In-Dev
21:18:47 <esowiki> [[QTTRPG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77577&oldid=77576 * MatthiasChan * (+2)
21:19:07 <esowiki> [[QTTRPG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77578&oldid=77577 * MatthiasChan * (-5)
22:25:22 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Binarycat * New user account
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22:30:34 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77579&oldid=77557 * Binarycat * (+176)
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23:45:49 <zzo38> In TeX, cross-references which contain page numbers after the current page may affect their width and therefore affect line breaks, since you would first have to typeset them without the reference filled in. I suppose one solution might be to include leading zeros in page numbers. Another solution is to only cross-reference section numbers and not page numbers.
23:47:38 <kmc> this sort of thing is why you have to run tex multiple times to get all the references right, yeah?
23:51:52 <zzo38> Well, I am only running it once; just the first time, the output routine doesn't write anything into the DVI file. Deferred \write doesn't work if you don't write into the DVI file, so instead I use insertions containing alternating marks and penalties.
23:54:01 <zzo38> (Even if you are going to ship out the page, you may need some data from it before shipping it out in order to add headers and footers. Marks partially work, but that isn't always good enough. Using insertions in this way allows emulating multiple classes of marks.)
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23:57:32 <zzo38> Another possibility that I can think of for cross-references to page numbers is to remember the values of \prevgraf for each paragraph where such cross-references occur, written to a file in order, and then during the next phase, read them back and save the difference, and then finally, use the differences as the \looseness parameter for that paragraph.
23:58:45 <zzo38> However, this might fail if \brokenpenalty is nonzero.
00:01:43 <zzo38> (Running TeX only once also helps if external files are not allowed to persist, such as in case they are stored in memory instead of disk files.)
00:45:55 <imode> a single rewrite step now costs about 100ns.
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01:11:57 <esowiki> [[BrainForth]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77580 * Binarycat * (+3005) Created page with " BrainForth is an esoteric programing language created by [[User:Binarycat]] in 2020 that combines the tape and minimal instruction set of brainfuck with Forth's word system...."
01:16:12 <esowiki> [[BrainForth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77581&oldid=77580 * Binarycat * (+31)
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04:41:33 <zzo38> I started writing rules of Scientific Role Playing System, in case you are interested of such thing, and/or might have a comment. See: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/scirps.ui/dir?ci=tip
05:07:04 <esowiki> [[FiM++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77582&oldid=70579 * DGCK81LNN * (-25) Removed "Output only" category. Input in FiM++ is written as "I read" or "I heard"
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05:16:18 <esowiki> [[Wenyan-lang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77583&oldid=73638 * DGCK81LNN * (-19) /* External resources */
05:26:49 <esowiki> [[Chef]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77584&oldid=77550 * DGCK81LNN * (-65) /* Hello, world! in Chef */
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12:59:28 <esowiki> [[User:SunnyMoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77585&oldid=77552 * SunnyMoon * (+39) 2DF! (I will not swear)
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13:25:14 <kritixilithos> rain1: i asked the question on codidact https://math.codidact.com/questions/278140
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16:54:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Jumpmin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77586&oldid=74205 * Tetrapyronia * (+505) /* 3 Command Minimalization */ new section
16:54:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Jumpmin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77587&oldid=77586 * Tetrapyronia * (+100)
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17:22:15 <esowiki> [[BrainForth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77588&oldid=77581 * Binarycat * (+237)
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17:50:28 <esowiki> [[2DFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77589 * SunnyMoon * (+4654) Welcome to the wiki! (I don't want to say your name :( )
17:52:11 <esowiki> [[2DF]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77590 * SunnyMoon * (+20) For the people who do not like to swear.
17:53:09 <esowiki> [[User:SunnyMoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77591&oldid=77585 * SunnyMoon * (-40) Article is created!
17:54:22 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77592&oldid=77504 * SunnyMoon * (+13) 2DF! (I will not swear)
17:56:12 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77593&oldid=77506 * SunnyMoon * (+176) 2DF! (I will not swear)
17:56:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Jumpmin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77594&oldid=77587 * Tetrapyronia * (-93) /* 3 Command Minimalization */
17:56:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Jumpmin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77595&oldid=77594 * Tetrapyronia * (-6) /* 4 Command Minimalization */
18:14:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Jumpmin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77596&oldid=77595 * Tetrapyronia * (+77) /* 4 Command Minimalization */
18:14:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Jumpmin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77597&oldid=77596 * Tetrapyronia * (-3) /* 3 Command Minimalization */
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19:38:50 <esowiki> [[Modulous]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77598&oldid=77455 * Abyxlrz * (+175)
19:40:47 <esowiki> [[Modulous]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77599&oldid=77598 * Abyxlrz * (-108)
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20:34:59 <zzo38> If you want to count how many columns there are in an alignment in TeX, you can write: \global\mscount=0 \setbox0=\vbox{\halign{&\gobble{##}\global\advance\mscount by 1 \cr#2\cr}} if #2 contains one row of stuff, and \gobble is defined as \def\gobble#1{}
22:03:40 <imode> 54595 operations, 1305267ns total execution time, yields (not exactly) 23.908ns per operation.
22:04:44 <imode> that's about as low as we go.
22:51:51 <imode> being purely symbolic really does hurt performance.
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23:00:30 <esowiki> [[Fuckmap]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77600 * Aspwil * (+1096) Created page with "'''Fuckmap''' is an esolang created by ~~~, it is a derivative of [[brainfuck]] where the commands are remapped to different chars every time a command is read ==commands== {..."
23:12:07 <imode> 2us to increment 5 18-bit numbers with all 1's with rewrite rules.
23:12:38 <imode> 2.8us, actually. with 370 rewrite steps taken, that's about 8ns per rewrite.
23:13:07 <imode> 569.2ns per number.
23:16:31 <esowiki> [[Fuckmap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77601&oldid=77600 * Aspwil * (+332)
23:17:42 <esowiki> [[Fuckmap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77602&oldid=77601 * Aspwil * (-2)
23:18:30 <esowiki> [[Fuckmap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77603&oldid=77602 * Aspwil * (+1)
23:20:46 <esowiki> [[Fuckmap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77604&oldid=77603 * Aspwil * (+28)
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00:04:57 <esowiki> [[Fuckmap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77605&oldid=77604 * Aspwil * (+1302)
00:07:22 <esowiki> [[Fuckmap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77606&oldid=77605 * Aspwil * (+115)
00:09:39 <esowiki> [[Fuckmap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77607&oldid=77606 * Aspwil * (+4)
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00:16:36 <esowiki> [[Fuckmap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77608&oldid=77607 * Aspwil * (+36)
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00:25:47 <esowiki> [[Fuckmap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77609&oldid=77608 * Aspwil * (+146)
00:29:35 <esowiki> [[Fuckmap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77610&oldid=77609 * Aspwil * (-18)
00:36:56 <esowiki> [[Fuckmap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77611&oldid=77610 * Aspwil * (-4)
00:42:09 <esowiki> [[3x]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77612 * Tetrapyronia * (+1020) Created page with "'''3x''' is a stack-based esolang. It is inspired mainly by [[1+]] in that 3 is the only literal. Stack items can be any rational number. == Commands == {| class="wikitable" |..."
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01:08:29 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Aspwil * uploaded "[[File:Fuckmap-map update example.jpg]]": an example of a map update for a single char in mapfuck
01:10:12 <imode> I guess I can't beat good ol' imperative programming.
02:29:48 <esowiki> [[Mapfuck 2 turring boogaloo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77614 * Aspwil * (+323) Created page with "'''Mapfuck 2 turring boogaloo''' is a derivitive of the original [[mapfuck]] programing language with a single difference every time the map updates it updates twice first fr..."
02:30:37 <esowiki> [[Fuckmap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77615&oldid=77611 * Aspwil * (-3036) Blanked the page
02:30:54 <esowiki> [[Mapfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77616 * Aspwil * (+3037) Created page with "'''MapFuck''' is an esolang created by [[User:Aspwil|Aspwil]] ([[User talk:Aspwil|talk]]), it is a derivative of [[brainfuck]] where the commands are remapped to different cha..."
02:32:13 <esowiki> [[Mapfuck 2 turring boogaloo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77617&oldid=77614 * Aspwil * (+61)
02:40:03 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77618&oldid=77592 * Aspwil * (+47) /* M */ added map fuck and map fuck 2
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03:07:20 <esowiki> [[Fuckmap]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77619&oldid=77615 * Tetrapyronia * (+21) Redirecting to new page
03:10:37 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77620&oldid=77618 * Tetrapyronia * (+9)
03:15:42 <esowiki> [[Mapfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77621&oldid=77616 * Tetrapyronia * (+0) name of language
03:55:10 <zzo38> Is there a shortcut sign for a complementary angle (rather than just writing 90 degrees minus theta, or a similar thing like that)?
05:11:36 <esowiki> [[Poetic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77622 * JWinslow23 * (+5596) Added page for Poetic
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05:15:56 <esowiki> [[Poetic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77623&oldid=77622 * JWinslow23 * (+1) Corrected typo
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05:35:30 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77624&oldid=77555 * JWinslow23 * (+210) Added Poetic truth machine
05:36:03 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77625&oldid=77624 * JWinslow23 * (+1) whoopsie
05:39:24 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77626&oldid=77593 * JWinslow23 * (+506) Added Poetic "Hello World"
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08:12:18 <esowiki> [[2DFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77627&oldid=77589 * SunnyMoon * (-5) Instruction pointer is memory pointer
08:17:19 <esowiki> [[2D BF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77628&oldid=65110 * SunnyMoon * (+28) 2DF and bullet points.
08:34:22 <esowiki> [[2DFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77629&oldid=77627 * SunnyMoon * (+108) Forgot to categorize.
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11:56:31 <esowiki> [[User:HDWithZeroes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77630&oldid=76914 * HDWithZeroes * (+51)
11:57:48 <esowiki> [[User:HDWithZeroes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77631&oldid=77630 * HDWithZeroes * (+22)
13:35:54 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Rzed786 * New user account
13:38:21 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77632&oldid=77579 * Rzed786 * (+29) /* Introductions */
13:55:07 <esowiki> [[Fear]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77633 * Rzed786 * (+814) Created page with "'''Fear''' is an esoteric programming language that gives you esolangaphobia. It has five instructions: i, o, +, - and j. == Instructions == It has one variable. i takes inpu..."
14:00:15 <esowiki> [[2DFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77634&oldid=77629 * SunnyMoon * (+6) Added a more understandable example.
14:00:44 <esowiki> [[2DFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77635&oldid=77634 * SunnyMoon * (+1) Oh no! Forgot to codify the code!
14:01:49 <esowiki> [[Fear]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77636&oldid=77633 * Rzed786 * (-67)
14:07:24 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77637&oldid=77625 * SunnyMoon * (+106) 2DF!
14:08:49 <esowiki> [[Fear]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77638&oldid=77636 * Rzed786 * (+32)
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18:30:21 <esowiki> [[Mapfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77639&oldid=77621 * Aspwil * (+5989)
18:31:33 <esowiki> [[Mapfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77640&oldid=77639 * Aspwil * (-1382) removed an example section (replaced with a better section for same purpose in last update)
18:32:51 <esowiki> [[Mapfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77641&oldid=77640 * Aspwil * (+70)
18:33:03 <esowiki> [[Mapfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77642&oldid=77641 * Aspwil * (+2)
18:33:35 <esowiki> [[Mapfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77643&oldid=77642 * Aspwil * (+28)
18:34:21 <esowiki> [[Mapfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77644&oldid=77643 * Aspwil * (+0)
18:35:06 <esowiki> [[Mapfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77645&oldid=77644 * Aspwil * (-28)
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19:41:04 <esowiki> [[Conveyer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77646&oldid=77177 * Abbin21 * (+935)
19:41:36 <esowiki> [[Conveyer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77647&oldid=77646 * Abbin21 * (+1)
20:17:24 <esowiki> [[Sabdt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77648&oldid=77509 * Aspwil * (+5)
20:21:30 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Napen123 * New user account
20:25:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77649&oldid=77632 * Napen123 * (+183) /* Introductions */
20:57:40 <esowiki> [[Mapfuck 2 turring boogaloo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77650&oldid=77617 * Aspwil * (+300)
20:58:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Aspwil * moved [[Mapfuck 2 turring boogaloo]] to [[Mapfuck 2: Turing Boogaloo]]: mispelling of turing
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21:05:20 <aspwil> hello is this place active?
21:06:30 <fizzie> Sometimes, but pretty rarely.
21:07:26 <aspwil> im working on an esolang but im not sure what computatinal class it would fall into (im trying to figure it out) any suggestions
21:08:39 <aspwil> the problem is any piece of code can be read and executed. but when ever i try to logic on what program to use to do something i cant seem to find a way though it
21:09:33 <aspwil> since when ever you change, add or remove a character what each character does changes in hard to predixt ways
21:09:38 <aspwil> since when ever you change, add or remove a character what each character does changes in hard to predidt ways
21:13:04 <aspwil> its mapfuck 2: turing boogaloo (the page is still being worked on)
21:14:54 <fizzie> Yeah, I don't think there's really any general-purpose advice for that. What people usually do is try to find the simplest-seeming language that's known to be in the class they're interested in (BCT is pretty popular for TC proofs), and try to figure out how to translate (and/or interpret) programs of that language into it, because that shows it's at least that powerful.
21:18:38 <aspwil> yeah that not really an option, since i cant really figure out how to even make a simple program do what i want, since everything is so volitile
21:19:47 <imode> speaking of BCT, are there any actual examples of doing useful things like arithmetic in it.
21:20:02 <imode> I doubt that I'm bigbrained enough for that.
21:20:52 <aspwil> im not sure if programing (aka taking an instruction set and making a corisponding program to do that instruction set) if even possible unless by random testing of programs untill you find the right one
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21:23:49 <aspwil> im also very bad at explaining why its so hard, be cause its so complex
21:27:27 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jdsj llop llvm * New user account
21:32:46 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77653&oldid=77649 * Jdsj llop llvm * (+184) add intro
21:34:01 <esowiki> [[User:Jdsj llop llvm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77654 * Jdsj llop llvm * (+48) Make user page
21:39:22 <aspwil> does this list changes to the wiki in real time?
21:41:38 <esowiki> [[Mapfuck 2: Turing Boogaloo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77655&oldid=77651 * Aspwil * (+794)
21:42:16 <aspwil> i really shold update the page more but ithink people could understand it if they read the refrenced page
22:13:02 <esowiki> [[Binary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77656&oldid=72174 * Napen123 * (+98) Add link to rust interpreter
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02:22:33 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77657&oldid=77547 * Tetrapyronia * (-1530) Replaced content with "hey it's me :)<br> things i did: * [[3x]]"
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12:03:35 <b_jonas> TIL that Pokemon Yellow has a pretty good official Korean translated version. And I also learned what the trick is that makes it possible.
12:04:08 <b_jonas> The trick is that that version is GBC only.
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12:12:29 <b_jonas> Luciole: more like because faster CPU, but both
12:12:46 <b_jonas> yes, the RAM is needed too
12:12:51 <b_jonas> and it looks amazing as well
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12:33:24 <Arcorann_> I once stayed at a relative's house where they had a multicart with a Chinese version of Gold (bootleg obviously)
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14:15:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Segreq]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77658 * Tetrapyronia * (+473) /* Random Number Generation and Banned Polynomials */ new section
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14:33:26 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1215.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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16:09:31 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77659&oldid=77657 * Tetrapyronia * (+348)
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17:42:47 <rain1> https://math.codidact.com/questions/278140 nice you got an answer
17:42:52 <rain1> by derek elkins too
17:48:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:3var]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77660&oldid=52330 * Quelklef * (+1494) /* Semantics of f and F? */ new section
17:52:18 <esowiki> [[User:Quelklef]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77661 * Quelklef * (+109) Created page with "I like programming languages. I've built one esolang so far, [[3.725254969642999e-321]]. I plan to make more."
17:53:19 <esowiki> [[User:Quelklef]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77662&oldid=77661 * Quelklef * (+72)
17:56:08 <rain1> wow is there just 2 questions on the site
17:58:01 <rain1> https://cellio.dreamwidth.org/2085545.html
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19:12:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:3var]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77663&oldid=77660 * Quelklef * (+563) /* What is the Datatype? Integer, Fraction, Floating-Point? */ new section
19:13:01 <esowiki> [[Talk:3var]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77664&oldid=77663 * Quelklef * (+88)
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21:35:13 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77665&oldid=71901 * Amb * (+0) alphabetical order
21:44:43 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77666&oldid=77665 * Amb * (+904) added Thue
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22:06:28 <esowiki> [[Triad]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77667 * Quelklef * (+2821) Created page with "''triad'' is a language created by [[User:Quelklef]] based heavily off of [[3var]] but with the goal of being cleaner and having a more precise spec. Execution of ''triad'' ha..."
22:09:53 <esowiki> [[Triad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77668&oldid=77667 * Quelklef * (+135)
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22:12:28 <esowiki> [[User:Quelklef]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77669&oldid=77662 * Quelklef * (+194)
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22:45:07 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77670&oldid=77620 * Quelklef * (+12) Add language Triad
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23:27:27 <esowiki> [[Interstack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77671&oldid=74711 * Napen123 * (+102) Add link to rust interpreter
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01:14:15 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77672&oldid=77666 * JonoCode9374 * (+49)
01:16:21 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77673&oldid=77659 * Tetrapyronia * (-348)
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03:21:45 <imode> so I'm on the verge of having a "production" thue. with builtins I can access the outside world and perform syscalls, and I can generate either C or assembly. average rewrite speed is 6 to 12ns.
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07:22:44 <esowiki> [[Triad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77674&oldid=77668 * Quelklef * (+74)
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08:21:54 <esowiki> [[Flurry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77675&oldid=70895 * Bubbler * (+475)
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09:17:57 <esowiki> [[Flurry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77676&oldid=77675 * Bubbler * (+178)
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14:08:43 <arseniiv> are there any image editors which operate on complex-valued colors?
14:10:16 <arseniiv> of course one would need to take a real part, an imaginary part, or an absolute value to get an image which can be displayed, but OTOH this setup will allow interesting layer modes and something like interference
14:11:01 <b_jonas> but maybe there are filters in normal image editors that do something treating pairs of channels as a complex number
14:11:18 <arseniiv> also one would be able to do FFT correctly, maybe play with phases in frequency domain and then make inverse FFT and see what it did to the image
14:11:51 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> but maybe there are filters in normal image editors that do something treating pairs of channels as a complex number => this would be nice!
14:12:12 <arseniiv> I think in the present GIMP version there’s none but I’ll be happy to be mistaken
14:13:13 <arseniiv> also nice morniveninghternoon everyone
14:14:14 <cpressey> interesting, but there is a slight mismatch, in that colours have three parts where complex numbers have only two
14:14:29 <cpressey> are there, uh, triplex numbers of some sort
14:15:49 <cpressey> maybe quaternions and then you drop one of the parts?
14:16:08 <b_jonas> cpressey: you can ignore one channels, or use something like ImageMagick 7 that can handle 2 or 4 channels
14:18:03 <cpressey> transparency adds an extra channel
14:18:32 <b_jonas> it can handle 5 channels too
14:18:43 <b_jonas> in particular there are operations that work on CYMKA images
14:19:46 <cpressey> it's ok, i have no idea how to do anything with quaternions anyway
14:21:51 <arseniiv> <cpressey> interesting, but there is a slight mismatch, in that colours have three parts where complex numbers have only two => I suggest complexifying the color space, so there would be six channels in general
14:23:32 <arseniiv> quaternions might be interesting too, though one should consider using something like CIE L*a*b* to map to them, as we’d want the quaternion norm to mean something nice like the color difference estimate, ΔE or how it’s called
14:24:46 <arseniiv> though I considered complex numbers mainly because they “allow interference” and more or less because of FFT too
14:25:08 <arseniiv> then you absolutely get a complexification of your starting space
14:31:11 <Arcorann_> https://imagemagick.org/script/command-line-options.php#complex <-- I don't really know what it does, but this mentions conjugate and real-imaginary
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16:03:00 <arseniiv> @tell Arcorann_ oh, really mysterious switch. I couldn’t find anything about it too!
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16:09:59 <esowiki> [[Sploosh]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77677 * Star651 * (+7935) They're coming to tape up the fence.
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16:22:56 <rain1> just realized for matrices (A+B)^n = AAAAAA+AAAABA+ABABAABA+BABABA+...
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17:19:19 <arseniiv> rain1: yeah, the sum of all possible products of A and B of n factors
17:19:43 <int-e> But they should all have the same length!!!!1
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17:21:00 <arseniiv> for all the lengths, one can take (1 − (A + B))^−1: 1 + A + B + AA + AB + BA + BB + AAA + …
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17:22:33 <arseniiv> a shame x ↦ 1/(1 − x) has no widespread short notation. Except maybe x* in a couple of cases
17:24:24 <int-e> 1/(1-x) is very compact already
17:24:27 <arseniiv> . o O ( (List sin) t = 1 + sin t + (sin t)² + (sin t)³ + … )
17:25:16 <int-e> why not t + sin t + sin (sin t) + sin (sin (sin t)) + ...
17:25:21 <arseniiv> that’s a lot less intuitive than what I actually propose, [sin] t
17:25:30 <arseniiv> int-e: depends on the semiring!
17:25:59 <int-e> sin isn't linear ;)
17:26:27 <int-e> so you don't get a semiring
17:26:46 <int-e> ...where multiplication is composition.
17:26:46 <arseniiv> I mean, I used a semiring of functions with a argumentwise + and ×
17:27:07 <arseniiv> yes we should name that thing some other way then
17:27:18 <int-e> arseniiv: I know what you did, but I focussed on what I did :P
17:28:07 <arseniiv> hm what would come of a semiring without distributivity? It’s the only reason we call something ring-like…
17:29:22 <arseniiv> wait, at least composition distributes from the left: (f + g) ∘ h = f ∘ h + g ∘ h
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17:30:31 <arseniiv> may I say again this channel is the best
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17:32:32 <int-e> arseniiv: There's a whole mess even when you demand that the multiplication is bilinear: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-associative_algebra
17:32:59 <int-e> Maybe there's a concept of a(n associative) left algebra somewhere?
17:34:07 <arseniiv> I was shown a silly conversation screenshoot involving Pythagorean theorem and then noticed it doesn’t imply euclidean structure as I thought, but is universal for quadratic spaces
17:34:47 <arseniiv> non-associative algebras aren’t my favorite, yeah
17:36:41 <int-e> I barely know that they're a thing.
17:37:44 <arseniiv> <int-e> Maybe there's a concept of a(n associative) left algebra somewhere? => hmm maybe that’s useful in those module studies, when the ring of scalars is very bad so even usual “two-sided” algebras don’t arise?
17:38:28 <arseniiv> <int-e> I barely know that they're a thing. => but how about many Lie algebras like 3D vectors with cross product?
17:39:04 <arseniiv> if not for those things, I’d forgot about non-unital non-assoc algebras with a light heart
17:39:38 <int-e> Well, "like cross product" is all I know about Lie algebras.
17:40:16 <arseniiv> I know they can be logarithmed to Lie algebras :-|
17:40:30 <int-e> Are there any Truth algebras...
17:40:46 <arseniiv> boolean algebras aren’t the Truth?
17:40:54 <int-e> (weak pun, but it had to be done)
17:41:19 <int-e> Boolean algebras are ambivalent.
17:41:33 <int-e> self-dual, and all that
17:41:42 <int-e> So you never know what is true and what is false.
17:42:26 <int-e> Much like real life.
17:43:06 <arseniiv> what’s fun there’s also a weak pun in Russian which conflates “алгебра Ли” (Lie algebra) with “алгебра ли” (<really?> an algebra), like “это алгебра ли” “is this really an algebra”
17:44:04 <arseniiv> <int-e> So you never know what is true and what is false. => then maybe Heyting algebras?
17:47:42 <arseniiv> hm can we try to factor the set of all these by all the Boolean algebras?.. seems ill-defined
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18:04:09 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77678&oldid=77670 * Star651 * (+14) adding Sploosh
18:16:14 <esowiki> [[Infinifuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77679 * Quelklef * (+361) Created page with "''infinifuck'' is a [[brainfuck]] derivative. It is exactly equivalent to brainfuck, except for the following differences and/or clarifications: # Cells are unbounded integer..."
18:17:58 <esowiki> [[Infinifuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77680&oldid=77679 * Quelklef * (+110)
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18:35:09 <esowiki> [[Infinifuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77682&oldid=77680 * Star651 * (+41) languages and 2020 category
18:50:27 <esowiki> [[Infinifuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77683&oldid=77682 * Quelklef * (+181)
19:01:42 <esowiki> [[Infinifuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77684&oldid=77683 * Quelklef * (+4)
19:02:20 <esowiki> [[User:Quelklef]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77685&oldid=77669 * Quelklef * (+125)
19:02:32 <esowiki> [[User:Quelklef]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77686&oldid=77685 * Quelklef * (+10)
19:02:45 <esowiki> [[User:Quelklef]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77687&oldid=77686 * Quelklef * (-5)
19:37:05 <arseniiv> if hyperbola would be compact, then we’d have another constant like π
19:38:55 <arseniiv> as π stems from SO(2, 0, R) related to circle, and hyperbola is related to SO(1, 1, R) not isomorphic to SO(2), so if in that impossible case these groups wouldn’t be isomorphic too, then the second one would probably give us a new π′ ≠ π
19:40:06 <arseniiv> if there is a way to make sense of this compact hyperbola, I would be shocked and delighted
19:42:09 <esowiki> [[Marthue]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77688 * Yoel * (+4272) Created page with "Marthue is a generalization of both semi-Thue systems and Markov algorithms, posted by Yoel Matveyev on Github in June 2020. The language includes basic input/output, forward,..."
19:44:32 <esowiki> [[Marthue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77689&oldid=77688 * Yoel * (+44)
19:44:59 <esowiki> [[Marthue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77690&oldid=77689 * Yoel * (-1) /* See also */
19:45:53 <esowiki> [[Marthue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77691&oldid=77690 * Yoel * (+10)
19:48:06 <esowiki> [[Marthue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77692&oldid=77691 * Yoel * (-1)
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19:50:20 <esowiki> [[Marthue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77693&oldid=77692 * Yoel * (+139)
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19:55:54 <esowiki> [[Marthue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77694&oldid=77693 * Yoel * (+0)
20:23:01 <esowiki> [[Conveyer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77695&oldid=77647 * Abbin21 * (-4) /* Math */
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23:11:22 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * 1hals * New user account
23:16:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77698&oldid=77653 * 1hals * (+259) Introduced myself
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23:28:55 <esowiki> [[Prefix notation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77699&oldid=69402 * 1hals * (+259) Added more explanation, an example, and a new category
23:30:09 <esowiki> [[Category:Operator notations]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77700 * 1hals * (+44) Created category
23:30:43 <esowiki> [[Postfix notation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77701&oldid=69400 * 1hals * (+32) Added operator notation category
23:31:31 <esowiki> [[Surround notation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77702&oldid=67588 * 1hals * (+32) Added Category:Operator_notations
23:32:02 <esowiki> [[Anyfix notation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77703&oldid=67591 * 1hals * (+32) Added Category:Operator_notations
23:33:10 <esowiki> [[Infix notation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77704&oldid=67592 * 1hals * (+32) Added Category:Operator_notations
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05:13:15 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77710&oldid=77709 * RocketRace * (+79) Undo revision 77709 by [[Special:Contributions/RocketRace|RocketRace]] ([[User talk:RocketRace|talk]])
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05:38:17 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77711&oldid=77710 * RocketRace * (-1) Typo
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07:17:35 <zzo38> It look like troff uses B-spline, while PostScript uses Bezier instead. Can you convert between then, and if so, how?
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09:50:40 <arseniiv> given an inner product space V over K, there is a “fool’s paravector algebra” which you get from K ⊕ V by defining (s1, v1) (s2, v2) := (s1 s2 + v1 ⋅ v2, s1 v2 + s2 v1), i. e. multiplying scalars and vectors in a natural manner (using the inner product for vectors). I named it a fool’s because it’s non-associative. But at least it has unity lifted from K
09:51:12 <arseniiv> I thought this algebra may be a stepping stone to get to a Clifford algebra over the same inner product space
09:52:29 <arseniiv> int-e: yet another non-associative algebra ^
09:53:15 <arseniiv> fungot: what do you think about silly mathematical ideas that don’t play out in the long run?
09:53:15 <fungot> arseniiv: that is a winner's attitude, and there is no particularly good human translation for this concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear c
09:54:08 <arseniiv> fungot is this attitude long-lasting?
09:54:09 <fungot> arseniiv: you really wish your side. it's just a wrapper for your private reading material later might happen sooner than you think it's time you shift in our attention.
09:54:38 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck* ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
09:54:46 <int-e> fungot: do you associate well with others?
09:54:46 <fungot> int-e: it just doesn't feel secure the matriorb and hatch a new mother has any shit they want to scrape off their bulge on to a particular type of three-way relationship of a black president
09:55:24 <int-e> associativity is just commutativity of left multiplication and right multiplication :-P
09:56:43 <arseniiv> I usually think about associativity as allowing us to multiply nonempty lists
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09:57:15 <int-e> internalizing inductive inferences, intriguing.
09:57:25 <arseniiv> like that `mappend` in Haskell’s Monoid or what it’s called for Semigroup
09:58:24 <arseniiv> then of course neutral element allows us multiply an empty list and commutativity to swap lists with multisets
09:58:28 <int-e> :t Data.Semigroup.sconcat
09:58:51 <int-e> You just want stimes
09:59:10 <lambdabot> error: Variable not in scope: stimes
09:59:35 <arseniiv> ah, I remember the operation is <>
09:59:36 <int-e> I'm not thinking clearly (yet?).
10:00:18 <int-e> I don't like NonEmpty all that much :-/
10:00:22 <arseniiv> I underslept but for a while I feel more or less comfortable as if that didn’t happen
10:00:31 <arseniiv> what could we do instead of NonEmpty?
10:01:04 <arseniiv> definitely its name is unwieldily long
10:01:11 <int-e> where does that even come from...
10:01:49 <int-e> (ghci tells me it's defined in GHC.Base... but surely it's reexported from somewhere?)
10:02:01 <arseniiv> I don’t remember its constructor and that other function to cons to another NonEmpty
10:02:18 <int-e> Or is it just something internal for list fusion, hmm. Maybe.
10:02:23 <arseniiv> maybe Data.List.NonEmpty? Does Data.NonEmpty exist?
10:02:59 <int-e> data NonEmpty a = a :| [a]
10:03:11 <arseniiv> I thought it’s a real proposed way to make `tail` and `head` total
10:03:37 <arseniiv> but :| is kinda emoting its way through
10:03:39 <int-e> But I mix empty and non-empty lists all the time.
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10:05:51 <arseniiv> hm I hoped there is an instance for NonEmpty, or is this just a default
10:06:41 <int-e> that would overlap
10:07:06 <int-e> (in an incoherent way even)
10:07:30 <int-e> In the absence of subtypes I don't think NonEmpty carries its weight.
10:07:49 <int-e> But obviously others disagree.
10:08:16 <arseniiv> I hadn’t seen it all that much though
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10:08:43 <arseniiv> maybe I should read less old blog posts
10:10:27 <arseniiv> I tried to advocate NE to a friend who wasn’t satisfied with `head` and `tail`’s untotality, and they even said hm but maybe NE is a lost cause after all
10:12:00 <int-e> (It's probably a good thing that we don't have subtyping in Haskell... otherwise we'd be dealing with a plethora of subtypes of questionable utility, as everybody and their dogs expresses their personal pet properties of results in the type system... because it can't hurt because you can always cast to the base type, right?)
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10:15:46 <arseniiv> shame it’s so hard to get yourself a free microtunable grand piano plugin. There are several pretty nice SFZs, and SFZs are playable by sforzando, but it allows only 12-notes-per-octave tunings, and IIRC even not all of them for that matter. So if one wants to write in 19edo, they would need to use 12-note modes and several sforzando instances, or hopefully it can be retuned on the fly, I don’t know
10:19:12 <arseniiv> int-e: IIRC subtyping would make things even worse but I don’t remember how specifically. Maybe ais523 was the one who said something in this vein here, though that’s not an unknown in the world, it’s just I don’t remember any other possible sources. So ping
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10:24:13 <ais523> my experience with subtyping is that it isn't necessarily harmful to the rest of the type system, but people keep trying to use it for things that it isn't appropriate for
10:24:15 <int-e> I've assumed an ideal world where subtyping just works... ignoring type checking and type inference. I think things would go wrong from a pure software engineering perspective at large, because people will never agree on which properties are important to express in the type system.
10:24:33 <ais523> on most occasions where people assume that their problem will be solved with subtyping, they're incorrect
10:24:58 <int-e> I imagine it'll work deceptively well on a small scale though.
10:25:17 <ais523> I'm not sure how much harder it makes type inference, it generally hasn't been fatal in the examples I've tried, but you can write papers out of getting it to work
10:28:09 <shachaf> Subtyping seems deceptively complicated.
10:28:57 <Taneb> There's, like, both the type of bread, and the main filling, and all the extras you can get like lettuce and red onion
10:31:13 <int-e> Taneb: All I wanted was a burger, why are things so complicated.
10:31:39 <Taneb> int-e: burger types tend to be fairly different from sub types
10:32:00 <int-e> I missed the pun there, my bad.
10:32:07 <int-e> The description was generic enough :P
10:32:19 <ais523> lack of subtyping can be really annoying when it affects a program you're writing
10:32:48 <ais523> if you find that you ever have to write a recursive version of the identity function, that's something of a giveaway
10:33:16 <shachaf> int-e: At least you didn't miss the bun?
10:33:53 <shachaf> If I want to do a spot of the SMT, what theory should I use?
10:33:54 <ais523> in most cases, subtyping can be thought of as "if I put a recursive identity function here, everything will suddenly typecheck"
10:33:54 <int-e> I guess that's the one redeeming feature of Data.List.NonEmpty.NonEmpty... the conversion is not recursive.
10:34:18 <ais523> at least when it comes to sum and product types
10:34:55 <ais523> probably also for base types with subtypes, as long as the conversion is either implicit, or can be done manually in your "identity" function
10:35:55 <shachaf> Do SMT solvers want o have backtrackable union-find?
10:36:36 <shachaf> What do they do in practice, since persistent union-find doesn't exist?
10:37:08 <ais523> what do you mean by "union-find"?
10:37:26 <int-e> shachaf: if you don't do path compression you get something that's backtrackable
10:37:41 <int-e> ais523: disjoint set forests
10:37:52 <shachaf> Maybe path compression isn't that important?
10:38:30 <shachaf> It kind of seems like it would be.
10:38:32 <int-e> you get asymptotically logarithmic time operations then
10:38:57 <int-e> Instead of that weird almost constant inverse Ackermann.
10:39:07 <ais523> "inverse Ackermann" is a new one
10:39:23 <ais523> even log-log grows too slowly to be really observable as distinct from a constant
10:40:02 <shachaf> The fact that inverse Ackermann just shows up in the analysis of a practical algorithm is pretty great.
10:40:03 <int-e> Hmm, I've still never worked through all of Tarjan's analysis of disjoint set forests.
10:40:15 <shachaf> Neither have I. I should see how it all actually works at one point.
10:40:17 <ais523> huh, I think the inverse Ackermann function is primitve recursive even though the regular Ackermann isn't, right?
10:40:41 <int-e> ais523: sure, it's basically padding...
10:41:18 <ais523> I don't think a practical algorithm actually would have inverse Ackermann performance, you'd just pick an arbitrary constant rather than trying to deal with bignums
10:41:56 <int-e> Well this is an asymptotic cost.
10:42:18 <ais523> asymptotic costs don't practically matter when you don't reach the point where asymptotic behaviour starts kicking in
10:42:31 <int-e> n operations take O(alpha(n)n) time, where alpha is the inverse Ackermann function.
10:42:37 <ais523> there's a polynomial test for primality, nobody uses it because it isn't faster for any numbers we actually want to test for primality
10:43:05 <int-e> disjoint set forests with path compression *are* used.
10:43:48 <int-e> I agree it's rare, but this is a rare case where the asymptotically optimal thing is also very efficient in practice.
10:43:57 <ais523> or, hmm, is the point that the asymptotic behaviour is a simpler way to implement it than just hardcoding alpha(n) to alpha(A(5)) or whatever would be?
10:44:30 <int-e> It's emergent. Nobody's computing the inverse Ackermann function.
10:45:36 <ais523> heh, the easiest way to implement the inverse Ackermann function would be a fairly short if/else chain
10:45:56 <ais523> after a few entries your computer won't have enough memory to store the input to the function, even if you use bignums
10:46:19 <int-e> But this is theory :P
10:47:02 <Arcorann_> https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/125397/create-the-slowest-growing-function-you-can-in-under-100-bytes <-- relevant
10:47:16 <shachaf> Why do you get logarithmic time without path compression?
10:47:30 <shachaf> Hmm, I guess the thing I was thinking to get long chains easily doesn't work.
10:48:59 <int-e> shachaf: You can keep track of the class sizes at the representatives, so you can make the new pointer point to the smaller subclass.
10:49:10 <int-e> shachaf: and that balances the tree
10:49:16 <arseniiv> ais523: recursive identity function is actually a recursive injection?
10:50:30 <ais523> arseniiv: yes, the point is that the input and output types are different
10:50:34 <ais523> so you can't just write id x = x
10:50:48 <ais523> unless the language supports subtyping
10:50:49 <shachaf> One question is, how much does backtracking matter if your SAT solver is doing many rapid restarts?
10:50:50 <int-e> shachaf: I'm not sure whether this works for the usual rank as well... my intuitive guess is that it does, probably something with Fibonacci numbers, but I have not worked it out.
10:51:02 <arseniiv> it may be interesting to compare this with μ types, for which usually the approach with explicit wrapping/unwrapping is picked as it’s not as taxing to the programmer as the alternative is to the typechecker
10:51:13 <ais523> one annoying thing about OCaml is that it has a subtyping operator, but you need to tell it what types are involved
10:51:39 <ais523> and in the cases where I've wanted subtyping, those types are often massively complicated and it's easier to write the recursive identity than it is to figure out what types to give the builtin
10:54:25 <int-e> shachaf: Oh it's powers of 2 even... the induction step is that when you create a tree of rank n+1, you're merging two trees of rank n. So that's at least 2^n+2^n = 2^(n+1) nodes. The base case is a leaf with rank 0.
10:55:19 <int-e> So ranks do work for keeping the trees balanced.
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11:54:37 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77712&oldid=77711 * RocketRace * (+2194) Add the Q station, and consequently Turing completeness
11:55:33 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77713&oldid=77712 * RocketRace * (+3) Typos.
11:58:02 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77714&oldid=77713 * RocketRace * (+15) Links
11:59:10 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77715&oldid=77714 * IFcoltransG * (+1) /* Footnotes */ Fixed category
12:11:08 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77716&oldid=77715 * RocketRace * (+6) Wording
12:12:10 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77717&oldid=77681 * RocketRace * (+55) Add Zirconium
12:13:36 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77718&oldid=77717 * RocketRace * (-39) /* Z */
12:14:34 <esowiki> [[User:RocketRace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77719&oldid=76913 * RocketRace * (+91) Ads Zirconium
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15:00:10 <b_jonas> "a recursive version of the identity function" what the heck
15:03:33 <b_jonas> "there's a polynomial test for primality, nobody uses it because it isn't faster for any numbers we actually want to test for primality" => that's not how it works. the polynomial time deterministic speed test we have (not the first proven version, a later imrpovement) is still the one with the fastest runtime bound proven in advance for large numbers that we care about, but
15:04:49 <b_jonas> we have had and used randomized prime tests that are much faster, either typically or maybe proven in average, I'm not sure, and even those we rarely use, because we rarely need to prove a number prime;
15:05:13 <esowiki> [[???]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77720&oldid=44701 * 1hals * (+43) Added clarification found on the Github README
15:06:37 <b_jonas> for crypto purposes we only use a randomized composite test, which can't prove a number prime, only probabilistically, but it's good enough to have a randomized test that is proved to say "prime" for a composite number with 1**128 chance when you can just get hardware errors or the adversary can make an inefficient attack that randomly succeeds more often then that
15:07:13 <b_jonas> and you can repeat the test as many times as you want to reduce the likelyhood of false positive as low as you want exponentially
15:08:16 <b_jonas> that said for certain practical reasons we usually just prefer elliptic curve crypto over anything prime-based these days
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15:11:35 <b_jonas> oh, you mean like a recursive conversion function from what you think of is a subtype to a type. yes, that can happen, though in C++/rust we can usually just avoid it by doing forced casts that the type system doesn't understand
15:11:58 <b_jonas> because we can prove that the representation of the subtype is the same as the representation of the output
15:12:38 <b_jonas> and of course sometimes the representation really differs, so you need an actual conversion function, even if you think of it sort of as an identity that restricts the type
15:14:36 <b_jonas> examples of conversion that restricts the type but change the representation are freezing an appendable vector to an immutable vector, or sorting an appendable vector while you don't care about the order to an immutable sorted vector, or freezing a mutable balanced search tree dictionary to an immutable sorted list dictionary.
15:16:28 <b_jonas> that said, both C++ and rust support subtyping to some extent, so using a simple (non-recursive) identity function from different output type than input type does come up sometimes, but in both cases it's restricted, you can't just make any type a subtype of another,
15:18:13 <b_jonas> and for some reason both C++ and rust were really stubborn about just adding a fucking identity function to the library, even though it is actually often useful and it's trivial to implement so why not give it a standard name to make code more readable. rust standard lib now has one, C++ doesn't but has a special case with restricted type, numpy also doesn't have one built in even though it would be
15:23:32 <b_jonas> "one annoying thing about OCaml is that it has a subtyping operator, but you need to tell it what types are involved" => isn't it enough to tell just the type of the output, in cases when it can infer the type of the input?
15:29:06 <b_jonas> ais523: since they weren't explicit enough, the and the "inverse ackerman" and "union-find" thing is a reference to a certain famous data structure that stores an equivalence function on {0..n-1}, can initialize it to all inequivalent, can in-place modify it to make two elements equivalent (then it acts transitively), and can tell you the representative of the equivalence class of any element, and
15:29:11 <b_jonas> there's an impl of this data structure where the analysis of the runtime bound does involve the inverse ackermann function. this is described the best in Thomas H. Cormen, Charlse E. Leiserson, Ronald L. Rivest, Clifford Stein, "Introduction to Algorithms" second edition chapter 21
15:32:30 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77721&oldid=77718 * McGoodmen * (+18)
15:32:55 <b_jonas> a useful book to know about, at least until we get the complete TAOCP
15:36:09 <b_jonas> (the other useful algorithms book that has some topics that TAOCP will cover is the ed. Iványi one, but most of its chapters covers topics that are out of TAOCP's scope, so it may still remain useful when we have the definitive 5-volume TAOCP (vol 1..2 4th edition, vol 3 3rd edition, vol 4A..5 1st edition))
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16:14:40 <b_jonas> on a different note, I'm trying to understand how openttd signal logic works, but there are too few good examples. the openttd wiki and the openttdcoop wiki have some screenshots and descriptions, and so do the old coop games, but not enough introductory material, it mostly just shows complicated bulids with lots of logic elements.
16:16:57 <b_jonas> so far I can't even reproduce the not gate from https://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Logic#NOT , and I haven't even seen an intro example for just a single flip-flop, examples that make clockful vs clockless logic clear, or explanations of how the later openttd updates and especially path-based signals affect this
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16:19:24 <b_jonas> let me try to reproduce it again
16:19:59 <b_jonas> as far as I can see, openttd is correct in that that simple not gate doesn't work by the way, despite what that wiki says
16:20:36 <b_jonas> but it's also possible that I'm just connecting the gate output wrong and so it's read wrong
16:21:52 <b_jonas> when I tried to build the simple not gate, if the input is disconnected so the output should be red, but what I get is that the output does occasionally flash green for a short time
16:29:03 <b_jonas> I rebuilt it in the exact orientation that the example shows, and the output still flashes green
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17:22:05 <b_jonas> hmm, I found another semi-clear example image that I can look at: "https://wiki.openttdcoop.org/images/7/71/Psg172_7platform.png" on "https://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Junctionary_-_Stations_-_SRNW"
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17:22:15 <b_jonas> (if only catenaries were hidden)
17:26:42 <b_jonas> heck the signal for the output is hidden by the station
17:28:10 <b_jonas> it still uses more or less the same build, just with more signals on the logic loop
17:28:28 <b_jonas> here's where I failed to reproduce: https://i.stack.imgur.com/sGc7j.png
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23:29:20 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77722&oldid=77716 * RocketRace * (-10) no stub
23:34:02 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77723&oldid=77722 * RocketRace * (-2) Thanks, cyan
23:34:16 <zzo38> I think that a way to make a new typesetting system might be to use a combinaion of the features from TeX and troff (including the intermediate output formats of both), and also macros can contain PostScript codes (to be executed either immediately, or when the page is being shipped out; graphics operations are usually only applicable in the latter case).
23:34:23 <zzo38> What would you think of that?
23:36:01 <zzo38> (Some sets of features of TeX and troff are I don't know how you would combine them, but it would seem useful to do.)
00:00:07 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * BougeToi * New user account
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00:04:18 <b_jonas> wait... so in debian, when software documentation is in a separate binary package, if it's html (or pdf) documentation (as opposed to man pages or info), the documentation is usually installed under /usr/share/doc . but /usr/share/doc has directories for each binary package name, and the docs are sometimes installed under the name of the doc package, but sometimes under the name of the software package.
00:04:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77724&oldid=77698 * BougeToi * (+268) /* Introductions */
00:04:24 <b_jonas> the latter might be an error.
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00:09:24 <zzo38> What are the policies for documentation in Debian?
00:09:42 <esowiki> [[Alex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77725&oldid=50296 * BougeToi * (-9) Made the text more adjacent to English
00:10:25 <zzo38> If there is documentation which isn't in man pages, presumably I should think the man pages should mention where to find them, though. (In addition to HTML and PDF, some programs may also have plain text documentation.)
00:12:39 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77726&oldid=77672 * Salpynx * (+1080) /* Examples */ Mathematics
00:21:10 <fizzie> If it's a mistake, I think it's a pretty common mistake. Unless you meant "mistake" in the sense of "not a good idea", rather than "not a thing a Debian package is supposed to do".
00:22:24 <esowiki> [[Alex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77727&oldid=77725 * BougeToi * (+122) /* Translate to brainfuck */
00:25:08 <fizzie> I guess it might be just that there's no one consistent convention. One of the '-doc' packages I've got installed (gpsbabel-doc) in fact puts meta-documentation about the doc package (changelog.Debian.gz, copyright) in /usr/share/doc/gpsbabel-doc, but documentation about the software itself (gpsbabel.html, gpsbabel.pdf.gz) in /usr/share/doc/gpsbabel. And then it makes /usr/share/doc/gpsbabel-doc/doc a
00:25:14 <fizzie> symlink to '../gpsbabel'.
00:25:30 <fizzie> But maybe that's just a particularly weird example.
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00:58:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: some programs also have info documentation. I don't know what the policies are, but the practice that I observe is that they mostly just let you install docs in the form that the upstream could install, which could be any of man, info, html, pdf; and then also add at least stub manpages for executables if they don't have one.
00:59:07 <b_jonas> they change the installation directories, but that make sense, they have to change that for basically everything they install.
00:59:38 <b_jonas> and most software already allows or should allow users to decide the installation directories anyway.
01:01:13 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh, and also if the documentation is licensed under the GFDL with front or back cover text, then they consider that docs not free and so don't put them in the main archives. this is sort of internally consistent, but very annoying.
01:07:54 <zzo38> O, yes, there is also info documentation
01:58:54 <spruit11> For what is this? If I remember correctly there are tools to generate man and info pages from your application if you set it up correctly.
01:59:49 <zzo38> I have used .ds and .so commands so that you can specify what directories other files are found in (whether documentation or something else) edited by the distributor, separately from the rest of the man page.
01:59:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: also a few programs, most notably subversionn, hide their reference documentation in the executable such that you can access them with something like program-name help --verbose then program-name help subcommand-or-doc-section
02:00:12 <zzo38> Yes, some programs do.
02:01:33 <b_jonas> zzo38: I should go through and extract all the help pages from the programs of subversion (svn, svnadmin, and a few more) and concatenate them to a single searchable text file, but so far I've been lazy
02:02:08 <b_jonas> mercurial also does this, but it also comes with a hg(1) manpage that has the same text, so in that case it's fine
02:02:26 <b_jonas> svn doesn't have that text in man-pages or on the web or anywhere easily searchable
02:02:49 <b_jonas> fossil also has the docs in the executable
02:03:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: do you happen to have already existed these docs for some executable such that you can share?
02:04:18 <zzo38> Yes, I know fossil does too
02:04:51 <zzo38> b_jonas: I am not sure what you are looking for
02:05:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: a single text file that contains all possible outputs from svn help $anything, svnadmin help $anything, etc; and similarly for fossil help $anything
02:06:13 <b_jonas> because in a text file, I can do full-text search
02:06:19 <zzo38> I do not have them.
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02:52:54 <b_jonas> this is probably a stupid question because I don't understand enough about hardware. ethernet uses a checksum, usually crc32 or crc16, to detect packages that aren't transmitted correctly, and can use that to negotiate transmission speed. that much makes sense. but why doesn't ethernet also use some kind of error-correction code, to gain bandwith?
02:53:25 <b_jonas> at least optionally I mean, after negotiation.
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02:55:37 <b_jonas> you can't really add error correction codes at higher layers of the protocol if ethernet discards packets with wrong checksums
02:55:48 <b_jonas> so it's ethernet that has to do it
02:55:49 <gahaaah> Here is a challenge that involves ECC cryptography, are you able to break it? here is the encrypt.py https://pastebin.com/UpNf3Pis and here is the output.txt https://pastebin.com/bM9X3znV you can use any esolang to solve this, or any program you choose e.g sage, gp/pari etc :)
02:56:03 <b_jonas> and error correction code is nice to implement in hardware too
03:06:42 <gahaaah> Can buffer overflow/heap overflow vulnerable code be written in any esolang?
03:11:01 <b_jonas> gahaaah: yes, there are low-level esolangs that let you access memory without bounds check
03:11:21 <gahaaah> b_jonas which one is the more popular one?
03:14:34 <b_jonas> dunno. probably some bytebytejump variant is the most popular, but I specifically hate that language.
03:19:44 <imode> gahaaah: do it in thue.
03:31:13 <imode> why're you looking to break esolang interpreters?
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03:34:59 <imode> shame. was looking for someone security minded.
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10:27:16 <cpressey> Algebraic Data Types, but for operating systems: Dual-booting == sum type, running a VM == product type
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10:39:48 <Taneb> What would an exponential type be
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12:02:35 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77728&oldid=77723 * RocketRace * (-6) Info -> About
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13:06:54 <esowiki> [[2DFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77729&oldid=77635 * SunnyMoon * (-52) I will remove this. It may cause confusion.
13:08:10 <esowiki> [[2DFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77730&oldid=77729 * SunnyMoon * (-4) Grammar fix
13:08:58 <esowiki> [[2DFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77731&oldid=77730 * SunnyMoon * (+1) Full stoppp
13:15:21 <HackEso> The password of the month is juberous.
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15:01:19 <int-e> Oops, please turn on JavaScript to enjoy Tabloid :)
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15:17:34 <Arcorann_> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24578749 <-- HN thread on Tabloid
15:19:04 <Arcorann_> I like how everything gets printed with an exclamation mark at the end
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15:42:18 <arseniiv> rumor has it that’s an extramarital son of Cobol and Intercal (and BASIC)
15:43:03 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Seiryn * New user account
15:44:59 <arseniiv> is there esotericity in allowing only dual numbers in a language? (R ⊕ εR where ε² = 0; or we may make ε a higher-degree nilpotent, like ε³ = 0 and taking R ⊕ εR ⊕ ε²R)
15:45:13 <arseniiv> by R I mean float64 or something
15:47:20 <arseniiv> (of course exp, sin and others will be defined by their Taylor series truncations)
15:48:10 <arseniiv> (like sin (a + bε) = sin a − bε cos a)
15:53:36 <int-e> That's not very esoteric, I think. Keyword is "forward mode automatic differentiation".
15:55:14 <int-e> (The syntax may be esoteric, but that's shallow.)
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18:00:51 <arseniiv> <int-e> Keyword is "forward mode automatic differentiation". => yeah I know :(
18:01:27 <arseniiv> int-e: how about complex numbers confined to the unit circle?
18:01:48 <arseniiv> (you probably have already seen me tlking about them)
18:57:39 <imode> C compilers seem to break if you shove 2.6MiB worth of statements at them, but I don't know why.
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19:02:11 <rain1> all of them around this same boundary?
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20:08:59 <int-e> arseniiv: I may have. Didn't pique my interest...
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23:23:40 <esowiki> [[Double Helix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77732&oldid=71508 * Abbin21 * (+1) /* Computation */
23:47:21 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77733&oldid=77728 * RocketRace * (+0) Remap exclusion zones for clarity.
23:54:47 <esowiki> [[User:Abbin21]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77734 * Abbin21 * (+148) Created page with "Abbin lives somewhere, i think. He has created 2 esolangs to this date and plans to continue his journey. == Esolangs == * [[Conveyer]] * [[Casini]]"
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04:24:53 <AviFS> Is this room still active?
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04:30:05 <ais523> AviFS: yes, but you arrived at one of the worst possible times of day
04:30:15 <ais523> most of the regulars are asleep
04:30:41 <ais523> see the logs linked in the /topic if you're interested in recent conversations
04:31:20 <AviFS> Thanks, that's where I'm looking!
04:31:32 <AviFS> Is it truly the infamous ais523?
04:33:20 <AviFS> Of all your super interesting languages, I got the most points on PPCG that I think I've ever gotten with your lang [Baby Language](https://esolangs.org/wiki/Baby_Language)
04:34:32 <AviFS> Which is quite ironic. There was a golfing problem to write a piece that would error randomly
04:34:57 <ais523> I like Baby Language because it's pretty much a universal answer to "do such and such a thing with nonzero probability"
04:34:58 <AviFS> So most people were doing things along the lines of `1/randint(0,n)`
04:35:07 <ais523> it's rare to get a language that universally answers an entire class of questions in 0 bytes
04:35:10 <AviFS> Yeah, that's exactly what it was!
04:35:47 <AviFS> The winning answer until that point was simply a golflang port of the `1/rand()`, but the empty program in Baby Language works
04:35:50 <ais523> I also posted an answer in Baby Language, https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/117869
04:36:10 <ais523> but it didn't get upvoted quite as highly, because I was late to the question (I assumed the language was too new; it wasn't)
04:36:20 <AviFS> And I remember someone was shocked in the comments that you would have written such a 'boring' language, haha
04:37:16 <ais523> esolanging is about pushing the boundaries of programming, not always in useful directions
04:37:57 <ais523> discovering new boundaries in the direction of "simple uselessness" is actually really difficult, it feels like most of them have already been found
04:37:57 <AviFS> I guess I copied you without realizing!
04:37:58 <AviFS> https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/203281/87594
04:38:37 <AviFS> If you sort by votes, it's the first one. Which has never again happened to me. But I think you'll be amused to see how much people love you in the comments on that answer!
04:39:36 <ais523> I normally read codegolf while logged out and with JavaScript turned off, so the sort is votes by default and I can't see more than the first page in other sort orders
04:40:01 <AviFS> Wow! Caveman style :p
04:40:15 <AviFS> Ugh, sorry for the auto-emoji *cringe*
04:40:23 <ais523> oh, it's meant to be +<-1?
04:40:31 <ais523> I type ← often enough that I didn't notice an issue
04:40:57 <AviFS> No, no! That's on purpose ←←←← I meant the painful stick-out-tongue face
04:41:07 <ais523> oh, it didn't auto-emoji for me
04:41:14 <ais523> it must auto-emoji on receive rather than on send
04:41:24 <ais523> this isn't an emoji: :p
04:41:28 <ais523> did that auto-emoji for you?
04:41:42 <ais523> right, your client is doing it on receive
04:41:57 <AviFS> This is not a pipe: 🚬
04:42:06 <ais523> it isn't in my font, unfortunately
04:42:08 <AviFS> Ah, that makes sense
04:43:17 <AviFS> How did you know I sent a message at the beginning? Do you always keep it pinned?
04:43:27 <ais523> I read the logs every now and then
04:43:34 <ais523> and randomly happened to check them 5 minutes after your message
04:44:09 <AviFS> Are you active anywhere else? Perhaps one of the PPCG rooms or the Discord channel?
04:44:37 <ais523> I don't use Discord; I used to be active in PPCG chat but Stack Exchange annoys me a lot, and eventually I couldn't tolerate it any more
04:44:45 <ais523> I have nothing against PPCG, it's a great community
04:44:50 <ais523> but the software it runs on is just so terrible
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04:45:24 <AviFS> Don't blame you! Well good to know we can find you on here then : )
04:45:35 <ais523> I don't idle here as often as I should, really
04:45:49 <AviFS> Will certainly be back, though should go for now soon. Just one more thing first!
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04:47:30 <AviFS> I'm trying to organize a weekly event where esolangers teach a language they really enjoy, or share whatever lang they're working on!
04:47:45 <ais523> activity in esolang programming tends to go in bursts
04:48:04 <AviFS> It's mainly through PPCG and the Discord channel, so it'll likely oscillate between those two platforms, and some Skype-equivalent for people who want voice
04:48:16 <AviFS> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fEHHewZeBvQmdKRa8pggPDHGrNDyxTh-mwOQmfX7FWo/edit
04:48:22 <ais523> my esolang activity is split between a) languages I can think of in 10 minutes and implement in an hour, b) languages which take months of planning and are so big a task to program I'm not sure I'll ever manage it
04:49:19 <ais523> so at any given time, I'm not actively working on any particular language because the easy ones are finished and the hard ones are too daunting to work on
04:49:21 <AviFS> So far 6 people have signed up to host one! (The Tarpit is the name of the general esolanging room I made on PPCG; the old one's long frozen)
04:49:24 <ais523> it may be like that for other programmers, too
04:49:32 <AviFS> That makes a lot of sense!
04:50:17 <AviFS> But I thought having a structured 45 minute event once a week where people can either teach something they love, or share what they're working on, would be nice for the community!
04:50:44 <AviFS> This was the Google Doc where people sign up, and where 6 have already: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fEHHewZeBvQmdKRa8pggPDHGrNDyxTh-mwOQmfX7FWo/edit
04:50:50 <ais523> it's an interesting idea, I hope it works
04:50:58 <ais523> some of the regulars here will spot your comment in the log, I expect
04:51:43 <AviFS> If you guys would like to join, the first one is this Saturday, held both at 11 AM & 2 AM UTC
04:52:22 <spruit11> I should get back to my interpreter but Zendikar happened.
04:52:22 <ais523> I probably won't be online then, hopefully you'll get some other users though
04:52:58 <AviFS> In general, they'll be held sometime on UTC Saturdays. So if you can't make this one, maybe some future ones. The idea is to let the host choose the time and platform (within that 24 hour window that is Saturday UTC)!
04:53:31 <ais523> heh, another answer to that "error at random" question is a machine code program that disassembles to "rdtsc; jmp rax"
04:53:56 <AviFS> Ah, alright! Will let you guys know how they go! Hope to see some of you in future ones perhaps. I certainly can't imagine how many would go to one of yours on Underload!!
04:53:59 <ais523> that's the sort of thing that hurts to think about because of how strongly it violates normal programming principles
04:54:38 <AviFS> Whoops! I have to go now!
04:54:47 <ais523> night / other appropriate time of day
04:55:20 <AviFS> How'd you know?! Sure _is_ night on this region of the planet : )
04:55:40 <ais523> I asked your client what timezone you were in, but it didn't know; statistically speaking, though, night is a good guess
04:55:53 <ais523> because it's night in most (not all) English-speaking countries at the moment
04:56:04 <ais523> weighted by population
04:56:14 <ais523> (that's the reason that most of the regulars are asleep)
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05:25:45 <esowiki> [[Tailor]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77735&oldid=77494 * Elderberry * (+34) Updated docs to match Github
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10:43:23 <wib_jonas> You know how sometimes we need a convention whether to write source arguments first or destination arguments first? This comes up in assembler syntaxes, but also interfaces in most programming languages that have functions with positional argument lists, such as C.
10:44:44 <wib_jonas> And different libraries use different conventions. Has anyone made the esoteric argument that source arguments should be on the left because "source" starts with an "s" just like "sinister", and "destination" starts with a "d" just like "dexter".
10:46:54 <wib_jonas> I actually prefer destination first usually, at least in languages like C that use a <- or = assignment operator with destination first, but I just wanted to bring up this argument.
10:48:22 <wib_jonas> But there are some languages where the assignment has destination first, such as in programmable calculators, and that sort of makes sense too.
10:50:48 <fizzie> To bolster that argument: the Finnish word for source, "lähde", starts with "l", just like "länsi" (west), and conventionally in maps the westward direction is to the left. On the other hand, destination, "kohde", starts with "k", just like "koillinen" (northeast) and "kaakko" (southeast), so generally to the eastward direction, and therefore logically on the right.
10:50:54 <spruit11> Life is messy. Category theorists will restore the order of things, no doubt.
10:51:59 <fizzie> Hm. Come to think of it, I guess not that many languages have completely separate words for the intercardinal directions.
10:52:28 <fizzie> The Finnish set (koillinen, kaakko, lounas, luode) have absolutely nothing to do with the cardinal ones (pohjoinen, etelä, itä, länsi).
10:53:12 <spruit11> Hmm, the Dutch word for source is 'bron' and for destination it's 'bestemming'. Two times 'b'.
10:53:28 <spruit11> No wonder this polulation is in a permanent state of confusion.
10:55:24 <Taneb> That reminds me, I need to fill in this form and send it to some Dutch embassy
11:05:49 <wib_jonas> ah, I found the answer to an earlier question I had. It's right in the FAQ, so now I feel stupid for asking somewhere before RTFM. http://subversion.apache.org/faq.html#http-methods
11:26:20 <wib_jonas> zzo38: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/zendikar-rising-update-bulletin-2020-09-22 Zendikar Rising Update Bulletin, M:tG
11:45:12 <wib_jonas> ah, so the new set has two cards, Verazol, the Split Current and Lithoform Engine, that can copy spells that aren't sorcery or instant spells.
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12:25:49 <esowiki> [[Transortogonal Polymorphism]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77736&oldid=76124 * Hakerh400 * (-6) /* Object */
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14:34:39 <Taneb> But I can see why some people might
14:34:50 <Taneb> I think they could work well in an education setting
14:39:37 <rain1> I use sage math with jupyter
14:39:41 <rain1> i dunno if i like it
14:39:48 <rain1> its kind of annoying
14:39:58 <rain1> it makes me wish python had some kind of checkpointed system for evaluation
14:40:02 <rain1> so you don't need to re-run stuff
14:41:30 <fizzie> I sorta like Colab, which I think are just our spin of the thing.
14:46:02 <fizzie> It's kind of nice for sharing some sort of analysis/argument with someone, compared to just giving them a script or writing a doc about it. Our internal thing has all kinds of handy integrations to systems.
14:57:08 <rain1> yeah its nice but I wish it was better, it's good enough t hat I use it
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16:09:45 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * 3s0!an9 b0y * New user account
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16:40:45 <arseniiv> <cpressey> Do you like Jupyter Notebooks => I used them a bit, especially when I was lazy to set up VS Code for working with Python. And they can be useful for testing numerical stuff
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17:24:09 <esowiki> [[2DFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77737&oldid=77731 * SunnyMoon * (-5) Killing a few s's...
18:02:47 <zzo38> wib_jonas: I have seen that update bulletin, but when I checked, the actual rule file was not yet available. I did read about copying permanent spells. Their rule seems to be similar to mine but less general, perhaps.
20:36:09 <esowiki> [[AnnoyStack]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77738 * Jdsj llop llvm * (+1031) Created page with "'''AnnoyStack''' is a stack-based language that is purposely created to be difficult to use, although hopefully turing complete. It also has an infinite tape, where each cell..."
20:38:15 <esowiki> [[AnnoyStack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77739&oldid=77738 * Jdsj llop llvm * (+55) add cat program
20:47:12 <esowiki> [[MITLML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77740&oldid=58711 * Jdsj llop llvm * (+2) grammar fixes
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22:21:21 <fizzie> Not that it's in any sense esoteric, but any opinions regarding ext4/btrfs/ZFS for a plain old spinning RAID1 setup for "general-purpose use"? I've been strictly ext4, but have to replace a drive anyway, and thought it might be a good time to think about reconfiguring, mostly because the fancier ones have that built-in checksumming.
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00:33:43 <b_jonas> fizzie: I don't know. I've heard good things about btrfs, it is probably ready for prime time, but I'm sticking to ext4. I don't think the checksumming is worth much by the way.
00:33:57 <b_jonas> but other features of btrfs might be worth.
00:42:48 <fizzie> I was mocked for having a backup strategy that won't strictly speaking help if there's been bit-rot I've not noticed until whenever the oldest copy was taken, that's why I was thinking about it. A periodic btrfs/ZFS scrub should in theory address that.
00:43:05 <fizzie> Not sure what other advanced features I'd use. Of course there's the snapshotting, which is cool. And a nicely flexible approach to multi-device support.
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02:50:19 <imode> anybody know any actual, like, game programs written for BytePusher.
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03:04:03 <zzo38> I don't know of any, but add it if you have some, please.
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11:18:36 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77741&oldid=77733 * RocketRace * (+663) Add Fib
11:21:31 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77742&oldid=77741 * RocketRace * (+151) Add a new _ station, as a counterpart to `
11:23:17 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77743&oldid=77742 * RocketRace * (+141) Add a ; defect, for programming use only
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11:29:39 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77744&oldid=77743 * RocketRace * (+174) Add a footnote to a footnote
11:34:54 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77745&oldid=77744 * RocketRace * (+2) Remove default table contents
12:22:47 <lambdabot> LOWI 261150Z 09004KT 050V120 9999 FEW013 SCT040 BKN060 08/05 Q1002 NOSIG
12:25:36 <lambdabot> EGLL 261220Z AUTO 34011KT 300V020 9999 BKN040 13/04 Q1011 NOSIG
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14:51:36 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77746&oldid=77466 * Emerald * (+2807) Day 2
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15:43:46 <fungot> int-e: it is a hate so pure and... pumpkin seeds? can you take a capture of my bedroom and send john code for his present.
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16:42:59 <esowiki> [[NoComment]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77747 * CaptainFoxtrot * (+3851) Created page about NoComment
16:44:12 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77748&oldid=77721 * CaptainFoxtrot * (+16) Added NoComment
16:53:54 <esowiki> [[NoComment]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77749&oldid=77747 * CaptainFoxtrot * (+44) Added link to Github
16:59:04 <arseniiv> pumpkin seeds are pretty culinary
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21:42:06 <b_jonas> when did google images switch to crop images like twitter by the way?
21:42:47 <b_jonas> at least they seem to do it more sanely, doesn't just crop them to a shape decided in advance by the frame even if it can't be cropped sanely
21:49:36 <b_jonas> hmm, google actually finds relevant hits for submarine jousting, though it's not the kind of submarine jousting that Taneb invented
21:55:09 <fizzie> Is either of them the kind where a submarine has a lance bolted onto it on one side?
22:05:22 <b_jonas> one of them is some history thing from the world war
22:16:52 <zzo38> Many programmers who convert their software to SDL fail to properly consider the number pad.
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22:20:04 <zzo38> I have another idea of Magic: the Gathering card: {?} World Enchantment ;; Auras have persist.
22:21:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: that would be a bit awkward with physical cards
22:22:29 <b_jonas> since you'd have to be able to place counters on a card hidden under another card, from which you show less area than normal
22:23:07 <zzo38> Yes; you could also use different physical objects to denote counters on attached permanents, if wanted
22:24:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: yeah, dice for one and coins for the other
22:26:06 <zzo38> Yes, that is one way.
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22:52:48 <esowiki> [[NoComment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77750&oldid=77749 * CaptainFoxtrot * (+135) Added information on clear command
23:02:47 <imode> now that I think of it, I don't actually have any good examples of some nontrivial markov algorithms like I have turing machines.
23:03:15 <imode> any search I do brings me back to forward chaining reasoning systems, but that's using term values and variables, not bare strings.
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00:59:42 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77751&oldid=77745 * RocketRace * (+0) Fix a crucial typo in Q
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01:01:51 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77752&oldid=77751 * RocketRace * (+4) Rephrase register machine
01:02:31 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77753&oldid=77752 * RocketRace * (-2) Enclose "module" in quotes since it's not an official term
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01:35:15 <b_jonas> question. in a modern fantasy setting with gods based on Greek mythology, like OotS, which greek god would be considered the god of arcane magic, in the sense that a wizard would sacrifice to them to make sure their arcane rituals work well?
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02:29:14 <kmc> my friends have a cat named Hekate
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03:03:23 <esowiki> [[NoComment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77754&oldid=77750 * CaptainFoxtrot * (+840) Added code for addition and subtraction algorithms
03:20:54 <b_jonas> hmm. the IOCCC wobsite says " The winning code is being reviewed and will be published in mid-August"
03:23:23 <esowiki> [[NoComment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77755&oldid=77754 * CaptainFoxtrot * (+90) Added categories
03:25:12 <b_jonas> well, they didn't specify a year
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04:48:34 <zzo38> What mana cost and name do you think is good for the card I mentioned above?
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08:28:20 <shachaf> If SAT solvers do rapid restarts, how much does incrementality in data structures matter?
08:28:33 <shachaf> Does the trail being backtrackable even matter?
08:28:47 <shachaf> I guess they do a lot of short runs and some long runs, and maybe those matter more.
08:28:57 <shachaf> Certainly by time, if they use the Luby schedule.
09:44:45 <esowiki> [[2DFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77756&oldid=77737 * SunnyMoon * (+29) Turing completeness
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09:45:26 <esowiki> [[2DFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77757&oldid=77756 * SunnyMoon * (+0) Oh!
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11:16:44 <int-e> Why aren't there any rabbits in the Wizard of Oz?
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14:32:08 <b_jonas> int-e: there are rabbits. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Marvelous_Land_of_Oz/Chapter_1
14:33:53 <int-e> b_jonas: wrong book (but yes, same franchise)
14:37:26 <b_jonas> int-e: well they're probably already in the land in the first book, just not mentioned because they're a short books
14:37:54 <int-e> also if "amused himself chasing the fleet white rabbits" is the only occurrence... that doesn't really count.
14:38:23 <int-e> just an insignificant part of the scenery.
14:56:25 <b_jonas> int-e: rabbits appear also in later books
14:56:43 <b_jonas> there's even another mention in the same book
14:57:12 <b_jonas> https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Marvelous_Land_of_Oz/Chapter_12 and most of https://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?search=rabbit+frank+baum
14:57:19 * int-e doesn't care beyond the first book, honestly.
14:57:26 <b_jonas> well, most of the first hits at that
14:59:18 <b_jonas> well then I stick to what I said, they were already in the land during the first book, just not mentioned, because it's a short book
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14:59:49 <b_jonas> you'll find many books about the real world that don't mention rabbits, and perhaps even short cookbooks, and that doesn't mean they aren't there
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23:43:07 <imode> zzo38: you're a PostScript expert. how would one define a `while` loop word utilizing quotations.
23:46:22 <zzo38> imode: Perhaps by making it to make an array and then run it in a loop; that array contains the original together with a "ifelse" operator to check if it should continue or to stop.
00:00:48 <zzo38> Perhaps like this: /while {{exec} 0 get exch {{exit} ifelse} aload pop 5 array astore cvx loop} bind def Now you can write: 9 {dup 0 ne} {dup = 1 sub} while
00:06:43 <imode> concatenative languages feel like borderline magic.
00:27:35 <zzo38> O, I didn't know that
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13:32:05 <cpressey1> So HOAS, at least as Haskellers use it, turns out to be exactly *not* what I thought it was. Representing your programs as lambda terms -- yes, OK, fine; implementing those lambda terms with functions in the host language -- ack what whyyyy
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14:00:58 <rain1> HOAS is kinda crazy, im still not sure i get it
14:01:11 <rain1> functions are kind ofthe most opaque data structure possible
14:01:19 <rain1> so the idea of using them for programming is kinda mad
14:04:04 <int-e> cpressey: Using the host language's model of lambda calculus is the whole point though?
14:04:47 <int-e> (AIUI, HOAS is supposed to be convenient.)
14:05:02 <int-e> (And also efficient.)
14:19:42 <cpressey> int-e: the papers and articles that I read up to this point definitely definitely did not lead me to believe that it was the whole point, that's all I can say
14:20:10 <arseniiv> I thought there’s usually a way to make functions not as opaque, something like they all get arguments of such a “type of variables” which allows to get a substituted body and not evaluate it too much? I forgot what I read
14:20:30 <int-e> cpressey: I don't believe theory papers.
14:20:58 <arseniiv> maybe I should take this into consideration too…
14:20:59 <int-e> they'll stress the part where you don't have to deal with alpha-renaming or index shifting and all that.
14:21:11 <int-e> because what else can you write about, really?
14:21:39 <cpressey> int-e: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher-order_abstract_syntax#Implementation -- maybe you'd like to add "Also the function values of the host language can be used, in fact it's the whole point" to that :)
14:21:48 <int-e> cpressey: disclaimer, I have not really read any HOAS papers (maybe one or two)
14:32:13 <cpressey> The section below that, on their use in logical frameworks, does say that it "usually refers to a specific representation that uses the binders of the meta-language".
14:32:34 <cpressey> Which seems to be how it's used when I see it used in Haskell.
14:40:52 <cpressey> So the underlying thing seems to be that I'm expecting to see the term used in a general sense, but I'm seeing it used in a more specific sense that a particular subculture uses. OK then.
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16:55:53 <kmc> it avoids needing to reimplement the rigamarole relating to name shadowing / substitution / etc
16:56:05 <kmc> because your host language already implements that
16:56:48 <kmc> it's been a while, but I think you can easily convert a HOAS term into a first order traditional AST by feeding in a supply of fresh names
16:57:36 <kmc> so yes, in one sense host language functions are the most opaque data structure there is; in another sense they are the most versatile because you can ask them anything you want just by applying them
16:58:04 <kmc> i guess it's kind of a similar principle to church encoding
16:58:57 <kmc> or maybe i'm full of nonsense. that is always a distinct possibility
17:34:09 <kmc> fungot: what do you think
17:34:10 <fungot> kmc: and it just might be all three possible codes, yielding a radically exactly the same as the word " crazy" t)(at is so ridiculous shit so youll probably sleep with the damn point
17:38:23 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bulkasmakom * New user account
17:46:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77758&oldid=77724 * Bulkasmakom * (+1406)
17:47:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77759&oldid=77758 * Bulkasmakom * (-108)
17:51:22 <arseniiv> is there an induction principle for function types?
17:52:40 <arseniiv> hm it seems exactly it should involve application
17:57:06 <arseniiv> yeah, if one’s to show something like “foldNat Z z s = z, foldNat (S x) z s = s (foldNat x z s)”, then we have foldFun (λa. x) a = x
17:58:17 <rain1> induction for function types is basically forall
18:03:05 <esowiki> [[Welcome]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77760 * Bulkasmakom * (+1204) Created page with "== Description == ScriptJava is like JavaScript, but different. It reverses the behavior when possible. [[ https://github.com/nikita202/scriptjava ]] == Substitutions == gene..."
18:04:09 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Bulkasmakom * moved [[Welcome]] to [[ScriptJava]]: a mistake
18:04:22 <esowiki> [[Welcome]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77763&oldid=77762 * Bulkasmakom * (-24) Blanked the page
18:07:06 <esowiki> [[ScriptJava]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77764&oldid=77761 * Bulkasmakom * (+0)
18:07:54 <esowiki> [[ScriptJava]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77765&oldid=77764 * Bulkasmakom * (+24)
18:08:50 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77766&oldid=77475 * Bulkasmakom * (+44)
18:22:41 <zzo38> imode: Why do you ask about defining a while loop word in PostScript?
18:27:58 <imode> zzo38: was working through some rewriting logic for evaluating a concatenative language.
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03:23:56 <esowiki> [[!@$%^&*()+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77767&oldid=77284 * Conor O'Brien * (+25) Add in-site attribution
03:36:04 <esowiki> [[User:BrainF99]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77768&oldid=68494 * BrainF99 * (+9)
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13:26:48 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77769&oldid=77565 * Void * (-35) Update Agoric Papers link
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15:25:16 <int-e> Hmm, when did Agatha become so scary? It's hard to tell, with Lucrecia being removed so recently...
15:33:05 <Taneb> int-e: here: https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20090504#.X3NTpHWYVhE
15:39:00 <int-e> Taneb: True, there was that outburst. But that was with Lucrecia inside, so... it's tricky :P
15:40:00 <int-e> (There were a couple of later outbursts including one or two where Agatha actually lost control.)
15:40:22 <Taneb> I think the outbursts are Agatha but the high emotions let Lucrecia take control
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18:36:55 <b_jonas> is there a website where you can upload random coupon codes for online shops or services, with fields like website, detailed description, code, is it use-once or multiple use, coupon expiry date; and other people can search for such coupon codes in case there's one for the service they're just about to use?
18:37:36 <imode> there is. but for the life of me I can't remember which.
18:42:21 <kmc> was it this one? https://www.retailmenot.com/
18:46:46 <b_jonas> I think that's only for codes that an unlimited amount of users can use, not single-user coupons
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19:55:01 <esowiki> [[Circles]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77770&oldid=73521 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) Update categories
20:34:53 <esowiki> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77771&oldid=77513 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+247) /* Circles? */ Finished repo
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23:08:55 <lambdabot> LOWI 292250Z AUTO 25002KT 9999 FEW034 OVC060 10/09 Q1020
23:09:03 <lambdabot> KSEA 292253Z 36006KT 10SM FEW200 26/13 A3004 RMK AO2 SLP176 T02610133
23:09:19 <lambdabot> KOAK 292253Z 29014KT 10SM FEW005 22/15 A2999 RMK AO2 SLP156 T02220150
23:09:34 <int-e> koak wins it seems
23:10:02 <shachaf> There might be some FU in KOAK tomorrow, though.
23:10:10 <shachaf> https://www.airnow.gov/?city=Oakland&state=CA&country=USA
23:10:17 <shachaf> I need to decide when to go back there.
23:11:07 <shachaf> Or at least some form of PM2.5.
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23:31:43 <lambdabot> EHDL 292325Z AUTO 17003KT 110V190 6000 BR BKN010 BKN012 OVC016 14/14 Q1016 GRN
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01:06:35 <int-e> `learn FTW stands for "forgot the words".
01:06:38 <HackEso> Learned 'ftw': FTW stands for "forgot the words".
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03:14:03 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77772&oldid=77753 * RocketRace * (+361) Add a cat program
03:15:05 <esowiki> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77773&oldid=77772 * RocketRace * (-84) Fix ~~~ in programs being interpreted as a signature
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07:08:53 <zzo38> In a Turbo Pascal program, I wrote "if Data = GlobalTexts[iy] then" but it says type mismatch error. Even though the type of "iy" is "integer", the type of "Data" is "^string" (it is actually a field in a record type), and the type of "GlobalTexts" is "array[0 .. 3] of ^string" (a global variable).
07:12:22 <zzo38> Do you know what is wrong with it?
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07:22:39 <zzo38> Changing the type of GlobalTexts to "array[0 .. 3] of pointer" allowed it to compile, but I don't know why the other way doesn't work, or if that would be a correct program, anyways.
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09:19:20 <wib_jonas> great. so apparently the most common lightbulb sockets all have names, they're called E24 for the normal 230V screw socket, E14 for the small 230V screw socket, GU10 for the 230V bayonet socket, etc; but
09:20:26 <wib_jonas> the type of halogen lightbulb that I'm looking for doesn't have a proper name for its socket, so it's hard to search for in webshops. It's apparently called an R7 or R7s socket, but that denotes two different sockets with different lengths, 78mm and 118mm, or reflector lamp socket.
09:22:25 <wib_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightbulb_socket and https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Lampholder_sockets lists some of the names
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20:25:00 <esowiki> [[Circles]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77774&oldid=77770 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-25) Update categories to Circles version 1.1
21:20:29 <zzo38> Is there a x86 assembler that makes output suitable to be included in a Turbo Pascal program?
21:22:09 <zzo38> (Also, is there a documentation about the calling convention of Turbo Pascal programs? I should think that would be helpful if you can to include inline code in the program.)
21:33:33 <zzo38> This file https://github.com/asiekierka/reconstruction-of-zzt/blob/master/SRC/VIDEO.PAS contains inline x86 code in some procedures; in addition to raw byte values it can also include variable names, and there are also comments with the instruction names. Maybe this was written manually (I don't know), but it may be helpful to do so automatically, too.
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