←2020-07 2020-08 2020-09→ ↑2020 ↑all
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01:04:44 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76360&oldid=76326 * RocketRace * (+27) wording
01:27:46 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76361&oldid=76360 * RocketRace * (+1036) Document subfinite loops
01:28:46 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76362&oldid=76361 * RocketRace * (-243) /* Subfinite loops */
01:30:00 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76363&oldid=76362 * RocketRace * (+0) Change the . instruction to reduce ambiguity for parsing
01:32:38 <adu> if you were to give a different name to 2 KiB, what would it be?
01:33:23 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76364&oldid=76363 * RocketRace * (+133) Make subfinite loops deterministic; otherwise they are not possible to implement
01:41:35 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76365&oldid=76364 * RocketRace * (+106) Empty pops
01:45:45 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76366&oldid=76365 * RocketRace * (+76) The ~ instruction
01:49:29 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76367&oldid=76366 * RocketRace * (+136) Document the binding strength of + and - in literals and instructions
01:49:41 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76368&oldid=76367 * RocketRace * (+0) -
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02:01:00 <shachaf> So in gcc, "int foo(void) { int i = 0; void bar(int d) { i += d }; bar(1); return i; }" does not make your stack executable, apparently.
02:01:29 <shachaf> But "int foo(void) { int i = 0; void bar(int d) { i += d }; void (*f)(int) = bar; f(1); return i; }" does.
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02:24:06 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76369&oldid=76368 * RocketRace * (+402) Computational class
02:24:30 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76370&oldid=76369 * RocketRace * (+6) Categorization.
02:25:38 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76371&oldid=76370 * RocketRace * (+0) Red links?!
02:27:31 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76372&oldid=76371 * RocketRace * (-9) No longer a stub.
02:57:13 <esowiki> [[WCDA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76373&oldid=68642 * SoundOfScripting * (-691) Some changes, more to come.
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03:01:11 <zzo38> I suppose that the compiler can optimize it, although the second case could be possible to be optimized too (even if it currently doesn't), but can "volatile" be added?
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05:12:08 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operator-precedence_parser#Pseudocode looks way too complicated. Why does it have two nested loops? Is that necessary somehow? My parser only has one loop.
05:23:14 <shachaf> I think the answer is that someone put up that code on Wikipedia in 2006 and it just stayed there since then, and I shouldn't go to Wikipedia for algorithms.
05:28:29 <shachaf> Or maybe it's to limit the stack depth?
05:33:20 <Arcorann> Did anyone mention it on the talk page?
05:38:40 <zzo38> Sometimes the first six astrological signs are designated as "learn" and the other six as "share", but I think would be better "northern signs" and "southern signs", since, the first six signs are north of the equator, and last six signs are south of the equator. (As can be seen on the map, the "Tropic of Cancer" and "Tropic of Capricorn".)
05:41:24 <shachaf> Oh, I do see someone making the exact complaint in the talk page, I missed it at first.
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05:44:07 <shachaf> I think I see why they do this now, but it doesn't seem like a great explanation.
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07:17:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nezbednik * New user account
07:23:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76374&oldid=76356 * Nezbednik * (+264)
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08:10:40 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76375&oldid=76198 * TwilightSparkle * (+127) /* Medium */
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09:22:47 <esowiki> [[Math&Matrix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76376&oldid=76355 * FLeckami21 * (+742)
09:37:43 <esowiki> [[Math&Matrix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76377&oldid=76376 * FLeckami21 * (-87) /* Matrix form */
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09:45:45 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76378&oldid=76310 * FLeckami21 * (+18) Add Babalang into 2020 category
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11:12:28 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76379&oldid=76375 * TwilightSparkle * (+314) /* Hard */
11:26:16 <b_jonas> shachaf: how does that thing with gcc-style local function definitions even compile without the auto keyword?
11:27:01 <shachaf> Why would auto do anything? Where?
11:27:05 <b_jonas> adu: halfpage
11:27:34 <b_jonas> or maybe you need auto only to declare a local function before defining it?
11:27:38 <b_jonas> let me check the manual
11:27:52 <b_jonas> I never use gcc local functions
11:29:13 <shachaf> Neither do I.
11:29:30 <shachaf> I saw someone suggesting to use them and I was all, like, whoa, dude, that'll make your stack executable (if you know what I mean).
11:29:35 <b_jonas> https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-10.2.0/gcc/Nested-Functions.html#Nested-Functions sorry, you only need the auto to declare a nested function early
11:30:09 <shachaf> I wonder whether I should get in the habit of always declaring my functions extern or static.
11:33:04 <shachaf> I'm reading BCPL compiler source code.
11:33:32 <shachaf> What was the first context of the style of precedence parser called "precedence climbing" or "Pratt-style" or various other names?
11:35:18 <esowiki> [[Unleash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76380&oldid=76358 * Hakerh400 * (+231) Add a new example and fix instruction description
12:05:25 <esowiki> [[Unleash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76381&oldid=76380 * Hakerh400 * (+267) Another example
12:07:37 <esowiki> [[Unleash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76382&oldid=76381 * Hakerh400 * (-6)
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12:46:57 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76383&oldid=76379 * D * (+212) /* Legendary */
12:47:08 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76384&oldid=76383 * D * (-1) /* COME BACK LYXAL!!! */
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15:47:16 <shachaf> Oh, the B language supported single-statement functions without curly braces.
15:47:38 <shachaf> The manual gives this example: "char(s,n) return((s[n/4]>>(27-9*(n%4)))&0777);"
15:48:03 <myname> i hate that in "if" already
15:49:32 <int-e> ... that example
15:54:48 <shachaf> It's an untyped language.
15:55:28 <shachaf> I like how it uses "x =- y;" instead of "x -= y;"
15:56:03 <myname> that's confusing
15:56:26 <myname> do x = -y and x =- y behave differently?
15:56:36 <shachaf> Yes.
15:56:41 <myname> ew
15:56:49 <shachaf> Oh man, extern variables are declared with "extrn".
15:56:57 <shachaf> C is positively luxurious with its vowels.
15:57:05 <myname> gotta save those bytes
15:57:20 <b_jonas> shachaf: if it's an untyped language, why does it have functions that return char?
15:57:26 <b_jonas> or is char the function name?
15:57:31 <myname> its the name
15:57:32 <shachaf> char is the function name.
15:57:34 <b_jonas> ah
15:57:36 <myname> the function is not anonymous
15:57:45 <shachaf> https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/btut.html
15:58:51 <b_jonas> if you want a typeless compiled language that uses even less vowels, look at Viktor Toth's W language (I think there's a wiki entry)
15:59:02 <shachaf> Strings are terminated by ASCII EOT (U+0003)? Exciting.
15:59:12 <b_jonas> nopw, no wiki entry
15:59:34 <b_jonas> www.vttoth.com/w.htm then
16:00:30 <myname> links without protocols make my terminal sad
16:01:40 <shachaf> This manual has a section called "Function nesting".
16:01:59 <shachaf> I thought it'd be some fancy feature that C doesn't have. But it turns out they mean you can write things like putchar(getchar()).
16:02:28 <shachaf> Which, to be fair, the idea of expressions is one of the major features of high-level languages!
16:02:46 <myname> well, but it has to be supported by the compiler
16:03:41 <myname> "W may be elegant but it's also practical."
16:04:06 <myname> "i am intelligent as well as humble"
16:13:05 <Taneb> Are there any programming languages based on string diagrams?
16:13:46 <b_jonas> I disagree with that C is luxurious with vowels: strcpy, strcmp, strncmp, strchr, strspn, tmpnam, SIGABRT, SIGCHLD/SIGCLD, SIGTSTP, SIGPWR, BUFSIZ, ESRCH, SHRT_MAX, FLT_MAX, mknod, and the most infamous examples creat
16:14:39 <shachaf> Well, most of those are library features rather than keywords.
16:14:57 <b_jonas> yes, they all are
16:15:10 <shachaf> But the joke I was going for was that C is known not to be luxurious with its vowels. So it's funny for B to be even more so.
16:15:12 <b_jonas> but most of them are from K&R
16:15:20 <b_jonas> ah I see
16:15:28 <shachaf> Even less so?
16:15:34 <myname> Taneb: what do you consider a string diagram?
16:15:34 <shachaf> Taneb: Do you count languages that use index notation?
16:15:53 <shachaf> I think it's possible to argue for Prolog here, though it's a bit of a stretch.
16:16:44 <b_jonas> oh, and there's sbrk
16:17:10 <b_jonas> luckily we're rid of creat now, instead we have a versatile vararg function
16:20:42 <fizzie> statc cnst extrn dbl x; // please ignore mixing static and extern in the same declaration
16:21:52 <shachaf> Should I write "int const x;" instead of "const int x;"?
16:21:58 <shachaf> I mean, actually.
16:22:15 <b_jonas> it's beautiful by the way, in unix, the creat function is obsolete, you create or open files with open; in winapi, the OpenFile function is obsolete, and you create or open files with CreateFile
16:22:19 <shachaf> It is more cosistent with "int const *const p;", for example.
16:22:38 <fizzie> That consistency was why I was typing up "maybe".
16:23:04 <b_jonas> shachaf: I think the FAQ answer to that is "it doesn't matter, do whatever you want", same as with `char *x` versus `char* x`
16:23:20 <shachaf> No, "char *x" is clearly better, because it follows the grammar of the language.
16:23:30 <b_jonas> I always write `const int x;` and `char *x` these days, but it's your preference
16:23:35 <shachaf> Just like "sizeof x" is better than "sizeof(x)"
16:23:50 <shachaf> Of course it's fine to have preferences, but that doesn't mean all preferences are equal.
16:24:00 <b_jonas> shachaf: those are not the same though
16:24:11 <b_jonas> `sizeof x` versus `sizeof(x)`
16:24:13 <HackEso> sizeof? No such file or directory
16:24:17 <b_jonas> I think
16:24:20 <shachaf> Yes. For types I write "sizeof (T)"
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16:24:27 <fizzie> Just don't write `int static x;`, because "the placement of a storage-class specifier other than at the beginning of the declaration specifiers in a declaration is an obsolescent feature" (C11 6.11.5p1).
16:24:29 <shachaf> Anyway, "should I prefer X to Y" can still have a useful answer.
16:24:47 <shachaf> fizzie: I'm pretty irritated that gcc warns about "struct Foo { ... } typedef Foo;"
16:24:57 <int-e> I'd think that you only have to write char* x, y; once and get confused before you switch to char *x, *y; forever ;)
16:24:59 <shachaf> I used to write all my struct typedefs like that.
16:25:25 <fizzie> Since typedef is a storage-class specifier, I think that's an obsolescent feature too.
16:25:33 <shachaf> It sure is.
16:25:42 <shachaf> What a great storage class.
16:26:01 <b_jonas> I can only say my preferences. I write `char *x;` and `const int x;` and `char *
16:26:10 <b_jonas> f(char *)
16:26:11 <b_jonas> {`
16:26:40 <myname> i prefer not to write c
16:26:55 <shachaf> Hmm, but C seems like a big upgrade over B.
16:26:57 <b_jonas> myname: no no, I write these in C++
16:27:04 <shachaf> So your suggestion of writing B instead doesn't sound right.
16:27:12 <myname> b_jonas: okay, in that case, i _would_ prefer writing c
16:28:16 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, that's because an angel visited K&R and told them about the original language used in heaven that would inspire C, and K&R remembered that and became prophets and copied as much of that language as they could remember in C. it's not a perfect copy, but they got a lot of good features from that.
16:32:21 <int-e> b_jonas: does the story continue with Stroustrup getting a visit from the devil?
16:32:49 <int-e> ...it would explain a lot...
16:33:00 <Taneb> I think the string diagrams that I was thinking of is also called Penrose notation
16:33:42 <shachaf> Oh, this is pretty good.
16:33:43 <int-e> Taneb: what about cat's cradle
16:33:49 <shachaf> All error messages are two characters long.
16:33:56 <int-e> ?
16:34:03 <int-e> (that was my `ed` impression)
16:34:04 <shachaf> In B.
16:34:11 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't know
16:34:12 <shachaf> Ah.
16:34:37 <shachaf> Taneb: Penrose's paper that talks about those diagrams also talks about abstract index notation.
16:34:42 <shachaf> (And introduced both, maybe?)
16:34:48 <shachaf> It's good, I like that paper.
16:36:48 <shachaf> Anyway, I think you can argue that something like Prolog counts.
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16:59:44 <shachaf> Ah, right, they recommend making the first six characters of function and extern variable names unique.
16:59:48 <shachaf> Good reason for the economy.
17:01:33 <b_jonas> shachaf: that's because of ancient linkers. C also recommends that. even seebs' IAQ references that.
17:01:49 <shachaf> Right, I remember seeing that before.
17:02:46 <b_jonas> https://www.seebs.net/faqs/c-iaq.html#question-10.8\
17:02:50 <b_jonas> argh
17:02:51 <b_jonas> https://www.seebs.net/faqs/c-iaq.html#question-10.8
17:04:06 <b_jonas> that's why the C threading and thread synchronization functions (which nobody uses, because we already had pthreads, windows threads API, a pthreads compatibility layer for the windows threads API, boost threads, and eventually also the C++ threads library) have such silly names
17:07:47 <shachaf> The best thread API is Linux clone(2)
17:08:03 <shachaf> It is so good that you can only call the system call from assembly, not from C using the syscall wrapper.
17:08:14 <myname> what
17:08:18 <b_jonas> that's one of the low-level calls that implement pthread functinos
17:08:35 <b_jonas> I'd never call it directly
17:08:42 <b_jonas> well, not for threading
17:08:46 <b_jonas> for namespaces, sure
17:09:00 <shachaf> What if you aren't using libc?
17:09:07 <b_jonas> pthreads is done quite well, there's no need to use the low-level stuff
17:09:26 <b_jonas> shachaf: do you mean no libc on linux, or no libc on windows?
17:09:37 <shachaf> On Linux.
17:09:48 <shachaf> On Windows you'd use the Window thread API either way presumably.
17:09:54 <b_jonas> I don't think I ever do that. that's for esoteric stuff only.
17:10:07 <b_jonas> no, on windows I'd use one of the wrappers that I mentioned above
17:10:23 <shachaf> It is called CreateThread. The OpenThread API is deprecated, whereas in Unix the situation is reversed.
17:10:33 <shachaf> Hmm, avoiding libc doesn't seem that esoteric to me.
17:10:50 <shachaf> Compiling programs for Linux that are backward compatible is already a pain.
17:12:20 <b_jonas> maybe not esoteric, but then it's not really useful for the programs that I want to write
17:12:37 <b_jonas> for linux, again
17:12:46 <b_jonas> linux userspace
17:13:32 <shachaf> Usually the glibc wrappers around Linux system calls are worse APIs than the system calls themselves.
17:13:42 <shachaf> clone is an exception, I suppose.
17:14:01 <b_jonas> yes, but pthreads is rather carefully designed
17:14:14 <b_jonas> it has all sorts of limitations to not add overheads for features that you don't use
17:14:20 <b_jonas> well, that's the theory
17:14:23 <shachaf> (The reason you can't use clone to create threads yourself is that it returns twice in the same thread, but in the same address space, so you don't want both threads to continue executing and using the stack.)
17:16:04 <b_jonas> shachaf: that's why you also can't use vfork, right?
17:16:33 <shachaf> I think you're allowed to use vfork and use the stack.
17:17:22 <b_jonas> in both children?
17:17:23 <shachaf> The original process is suspended until you exec, so modifying unused stack memory is not so bad.
17:17:45 <shachaf> You just can't modify anything else.
17:17:55 <b_jonas> ah
17:18:00 <b_jonas> well I dunno how these things work tehn
17:18:14 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe I should use vfork more.
17:18:51 <shachaf> Oh, posix_spawn, which I use when possible, uses clone(CLONE_VFORK) on glibc.
17:18:58 <shachaf> So it's not so bad.
17:19:09 <b_jonas> is it actualyl guaranteed that it stays stopped, as opposed to that being just an optimization that happens in the common case, but not always happening?
17:19:13 <shachaf> Too bad fork/vfork/clone is a silly API.
17:19:33 <shachaf> Guaranteed by what?
17:19:38 <b_jonas> the kernel
17:19:59 <b_jonas> posix_spawn is implemented by glibc, it can do all sorts of ugly stuff that I don't want to see.
17:20:19 <shachaf> The parent thread is suspended according to the man page.
17:20:36 <shachaf> Other threads may continue to run.
17:20:40 <b_jonas> yes, but does it remain suspended?
17:20:59 <shachaf> "vfork() differs from fork(2) in that the calling thread is suspended until the child terminates (either normally, by calling _exit(2), or abnormally, after delivery of a fatal signal), or it makes a call to execve(2)."
17:22:07 <b_jonas> I thought there was like a 30 year old email where Linus threatens everyone that if they abuse vfork, he'll make it a synonym of fork, and I think that's still canon, in that if a future kernel does that, you keep the pieces
17:22:33 <b_jonas> oh right, if that happens, the two children have a stack each
17:22:35 <b_jonas> sorry
17:23:15 <shachaf> Yes, vfork is very restricted in what it can do. fork would be a valid implementation.
17:23:31 <shachaf> I wrote this wrapper around posix_spawn: https://slbkbs.org/tmp/dspawn.h
17:24:15 <shachaf> But then I never ended up using it.
17:32:02 <zzo38> I don't like vfork() and had idea implementing cfork() instead, which is different in some ways, such as registers being shared too; in this case it is possible for execve to return 0 if it is successful
17:36:38 <shachaf> My preference would be to abandon fork entirely. It's mostly silly.
17:36:50 <shachaf> Instead, have system calls to create threads or processes directly.
17:37:12 <shachaf> One way to get the benefits of fork would be to allow some system calls to affect other processes.
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17:37:54 <shachaf> So you could create a blank process, and then tell it to open, dup2, etc., and then to execve.
17:40:22 <shachaf> Being able to call e.g. mmap in another process's address space would also be useful for debuggers.
17:40:39 <shachaf> Windows's VirtualAllocEx takes a process handle argument.
17:42:44 <myname> being able to call mmap on another process's address space would be useful for attacking software
17:46:18 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Abbin21 * New user account
17:52:42 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76385&oldid=76374 * Abbin21 * (+296) /* Introductions */
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19:31:24 <zzo38> Won't that make the interface for open/dup2/etc complicated though?
20:41:36 <esowiki> [[Casini]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76386 * Abbin21 * (+1902) Created page with "== Operators and INTs == There are four operators in casinii, which are represented by the four colors of playing cards. <pre> /\ | /\/\ | o | /\ \/ | \ / | o|o | / \..."
20:42:13 <esowiki> [[Casini]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76387&oldid=76386 * Abbin21 * (-1)
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21:02:13 <shachaf> zzo38: Well, maybe you can have a "run system call in child" interface, though you probably want to limit it.
21:10:16 <b_jonas> but then you also want to check the error that the system call returns
21:10:30 <b_jonas> so eventually it's easier to just have fork than to have some insane interface
21:15:30 <zzo38> Yes, it is what I think my "cfork" would be better. For compatibility with other programs, you can also define the macro: #define fork() (cfork()?:detach())
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21:31:42 <shachaf> b_jonas: If you fork you still have to check the error.
21:32:05 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, but then you can, because you still have a program running
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21:32:23 <b_jonas> you don't have to rewrite your normal ifs to some extra kernel interface that you have to learn
21:32:29 <b_jonas> you can just write normal code
21:35:41 <zzo38> Yes, if you fork, then you can check the error normally. However, the normal fork() function it is a bit difficult for the parent to detect errors in the child process, I think. So, fork is good, and for some purposes, cfork is a better alternative.
21:35:48 <shachaf> I don't follow.
21:36:12 <shachaf> Anyway, there are many options. posix_spawn lets you specify open/close/dup2 actions and doesn't even let you check for errors.
21:36:36 <shachaf> What is cfork?
21:36:47 <zzo38> I don't seem to have something called "posix_spawn" in my computer
21:38:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: posix_spawn is a windows thing, a crutch because they don't have a real fork, but gives a sort-of unix-like interface rather than a winapi interface
21:38:10 <shachaf> It is not a system call, just a POSIX API for running programs.
21:38:11 <b_jonas> (actually it also exists on linux)
21:38:54 <shachaf> posix_spawn is a Windows thing? I am skeptical.
21:39:43 <shachaf> Windows implemented fork in the kernel for WSL1.
21:40:54 <shachaf> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/uploads/prod/2019/04/fork-hotos19.pdf
21:41:47 <zzo38> Well cfork would be a bit like vfork, but improved; it returns either 0 to the child process, or -1 to the parent process in case it can't fork (it won't do both), and then exec or detach or _exit will return to the parent process (detach returns to both the child and parent process; exec and _exit return only to the parent process). Until the parent process resumes, the memory, registers, stack, etc are shared.
21:42:00 <zzo38> That is what it is. Can it be understand now?
21:42:35 <shachaf> What is the benefit of allowing detach?
21:42:39 <zzo38> (You can then also see why fork() is the same as (cfork()?:detach()); this also explains the return value of detach(). I can also provide other example if wanted.)
21:42:45 <shachaf> It seems like it'd make the implementation a good deal more complicated.
21:45:02 <zzo38> Well, since some programs may use fork(), and in some cases it is more useful than cfork(), too; maybe you might also want to change other things before detaching (or to more easily report some things from initialization to the parent before detaching).
21:45:35 <zzo38> So, that is why, instead of a fork() system call, it is just implemented as (cfork()?:detach()) instead.
21:56:14 <esowiki> [[Casini]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76388&oldid=76387 * Abbin21 * (+59)
21:57:04 <esowiki> [[Casini]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76389&oldid=76388 * Abbin21 * (+62)
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23:35:49 <esowiki> [[Talk:Casini]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76390 * Bangyen * (+225) Created page with "==Example== Wouldn't the example represent 54 + 9 * 54, since diamonds represent multiplication? If so, do operations in Casini follow BEMDAS? - ~~~~"
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00:01:07 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76391&oldid=76384 * TwilightSparkle * (-6) /* COME BACK LYXAL!!! */ Removed two more bytes
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00:26:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Math&Matrix]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76392 * TwilightSparkle * (+251) Created page with "I feel like this language should be more related to math itself. It seems to haved syntax represented with "matrix" but real math doesn't do much. ~~~~"
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01:27:31 <Cale> Idea: Machine with infinitely wide Möbius band as memory. It can only write one symbol onto the band, which looks like ^, but if it walks around in the finite direction and makes its way back to that cell, it will see v instead.
01:29:08 <zzo38> Yes, I like that idea, make up something with that, or perhaps to put in list of ideas in wiki, maybe
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01:42:59 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76393&oldid=76391 * TwilightSparkle * (+172) /* Do-while loop */
01:44:53 <b_jonas> Cale: is that basically like a turing machine with one tape and three symbols where the head can only write over blank cells?
01:45:26 <Cale> It can also write over filled cells, I think
01:45:35 <Cale> but it can only write ^
01:45:49 <b_jonas> so you can have both ^ and v in the same cell?
01:45:58 <Cale> Well, it'll just replace what's in the cell
01:46:04 <b_jonas> oh
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02:24:52 <pikhq> Cale: Cute
02:27:29 <pikhq> posix_spawn() IIRC was spec'd just to give an interface that can have some of the perf benefits from vfork() without having the utter specification nightmare
02:28:10 <pikhq> (and on good implementations, for things that can be done with posix_spawn it will use vfork() or something analogous for implementation)
02:56:16 <zzo38> It would seem that opponent can pay life to protect your lands too, with the Magic: the Gathering card "Cleansing"; sometimes this is useful.
02:58:10 <zzo38> (See https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Topic:Vr9ekwbia7l4g6jp for one example)
03:02:53 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76394&oldid=76393 * TwilightSparkle * (-205) /* Hard */
03:04:30 <shachaf> pikhq: Too bad the posix_spawn API is awful.
03:04:39 <pikhq> It is.
03:05:05 <shachaf> My wrapper is a bit better at least.
03:05:32 <shachaf> Do they actually expect people to check error conditions a for every file action and everything?
03:05:55 <rain1> that is a great idea
03:06:17 <shachaf> When the main way these things can fail is ENOMEM.
03:07:06 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76395&oldid=76394 * TwilightSparkle * (-85) /* Equality */
03:09:14 <pikhq> shachaf: yes
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04:00:19 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/VRsf3B Do you like this? Do you have other ideas please?
04:21:59 <esowiki> [[PRASCAL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76396 * Salpynx * (+2093) Stub for a high-level `Pataphysical programming language based on PASCAL, from 2016
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04:26:21 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76397&oldid=76395 * TwilightSparkle * (+75)
05:27:22 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76398&oldid=76397 * TwilightSparkle * (+24) /* Hard */
05:28:41 <zzo38> Apparently, someone said that the best design of Unix is that a line break is only one byte.
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10:55:56 <int-e> zzo38: that's akin to saying that Ferrari has the best cars because they're red.
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13:24:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: unix isn't the only thing that's designed in a way that the terminal device replaces the line separtor to a crlf on output (because that's what line printers want) and a cr with a line separator on input (because cr is what the keyboard gives). older platforms just do it more sanely by using the cr as the line separator, which means there's only one replacement.
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16:33:12 <zzo38> int-e: OK, although I just mentioned what someone else said, whether or not it is any good.
16:33:57 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, although I thought I remembered seeing that Unix was designed with using with terminals having keys for both carriage return and line feed, but either one would do in many cases.
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16:36:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: and some keyboards have backspace so you don't have to press shift-left-arrow to go left one position then delete to delete a character. what luxury!
16:44:15 <spruit11> That is the road to anarchy.
16:46:58 <b_jonas> just 26 letters, 10 digits, a space bar, and three modifiers, on a cheap foil keyboard, where you have to wait for the cpu to process your previous key to press the next one. who needs backspace?
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18:29:08 <zzo38> Do you like the ideas I posted before about a role playing game and do you have some further ideas?
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20:21:25 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nicerobot * New user account
20:24:47 <int-e> fungot: did you know that 2.5937424601^2.85311670611 = 2.85311670611^2.5937424601?
20:24:47 <fungot> int-e: and the channel wasn't active
20:27:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76399&oldid=76385 * Nicerobot * (+126) Introduction
20:27:45 <esowiki> [[User:Nicerobot]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76400 * Nicerobot * (+5) Created page with "Nice!"
20:32:46 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, there's like a whole one-parameter solution for that thing
20:33:24 <int-e> b_jonas: yeah that's what I've (re-)discovered, and been playing with.
20:33:42 <int-e> I found this one cute because despite the use of decimal points it's exact.
20:33:52 <b_jonas> int-e: oh
20:34:23 <int-e> a = (1+1/k)^k, b = (1+1/k)^(k+1) (note the connection to e) satisfy a^b = b^a; I took k=10.
20:35:00 <b_jonas> something like that
20:37:21 <int-e> bonus: k must be an integer (which we can take to be positive) for both a and b to be rational.
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20:56:55 <AidanBaidicoot> test
20:57:35 <int-e> `relcome AidanBaidicoot
20:57:37 <HackEso> AidanBaidicoot: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
20:58:34 <AidanBaidicoot> I have been here before I was just checking if anyone from the esolangs discord was here yet. the admin is being annoying and so we are testing out a move
20:59:43 <b_jonas> `? discord
20:59:45 <HackEso> The unofficial Esolangs and code golf Discord server: https://discord.gg/3UXSK5p
20:59:46 <b_jonas> this one?
21:00:17 <AidanBaidicoot> yep
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21:01:06 <osmarks> greetings, apioids.
21:01:14 <AidanBaidicoot> greetings
21:01:25 <osmarks> Wait, palaiologos runs this? Hmmm.
21:01:46 <AidanBaidicoot> I don't think she does but idk. she keeps logs afaik
21:02:14 <Sinthorion> I don't know much about IRC. Do channels have a single "owner"?
21:02:19 <osmarks> I don't think so.
21:02:54 <AidanBaidicoot> actually, there was someone who kept logs, who were they?
21:03:15 <osmarks> The esolangs website has logs.
21:03:16 <Sinthorion> palaiologos once said she keeps logs
21:03:18 <osmarks> it says so in the topic.
21:03:23 <osmarks> Also my crawler found them by accident.
21:03:41 <b_jonas> osmarks: no, palaiologos is one of the three people who keeps logs
21:03:44 <b_jonas> `? logs
21:03:46 <HackEso> ​#esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/
21:03:52 <b_jonas> ^ three of those are active, one is historical only
21:04:26 <AidanBaidicoot> ah, thank you.
21:05:15 <osmarks> Interesting.
21:06:06 <zzo38> Well, some people (such as myself) do not like Discord, and IRC is better. As for who owns it, whether or not that is the case can depend on the IRC server and on the channel registration; Freenode has channel registration, so you can examine it using the CS command (try CS HELP for help about how to do it).
21:09:23 <Sinthorion> Discord and IRC are fundamentally different and hard to compare.
21:09:46 <Sinthorion> Discord has tons of features I like that IRC lacks
21:10:12 <zzo38> In some cases, it is true, in some cases, people think so but actually it isn't true.
21:10:28 <b_jonas> that's because IRC is a tool, Discord is a framework. we're unix guys, we like tools.
21:10:33 <b_jonas> tools that do one thing.
21:14:55 <pikhq> On the one hand, IRC is a network protocol designed in 1989 and it shows.
21:15:09 <pikhq> On the other hand, IRC is a network protocol designed in 1989 and it shows.
21:15:30 <Sinthorion> ^
21:15:42 <spruit11> Find me a programmer with one hand!
21:15:44 <zzo38> IRC can be used even without the IRC software (although, use of IRC software is helpful)
21:15:56 * pikhq has done so, in fact
21:16:04 <Sinthorion> what do you mean by IRC software?
21:16:08 <int-e> so many PONGs
21:16:12 <pikhq> mhm
21:16:57 <b_jonas> that means the protocol is simple enough for client side and made of mostly stuff that is optional for clients, so you can implement your own software
21:17:05 <int-e> An IRC client that speaks the IRC protocol so you don't have to worry about the commands (like "PRIVMSG #esoteric :so much text")
21:17:34 <zzo38> Yes, PONG is one reason why IRC software is helpful, since if you do not have it, then you would have to write PONG manually instead.
21:18:09 <int-e> Separating messages by target is also very helpful. So... yes, you *can* use netcat but it's not fun at all.
21:19:19 <b_jonas> what hole?
21:19:40 <Sinthorion> Couldn't you *technically* use Discord with a custom client the same way? It's not an open protocol, so you'd have to reverse engineer it. Or use the public API which might have somewhat reduced functionality.
21:19:41 <b_jonas> just walk
21:19:50 <b_jonas> sorry, wrong channel again
21:20:05 <b_jonas> Sinthorion: perhaps you could, but it's much more complicated
21:20:22 <pikhq> And unlike with IRC, not an intended property of how things work
21:20:44 <pikhq> This is a decision with upsides and downsides both.
21:20:59 <Sinthorion> yes
21:21:26 <zzo38> Yes, although Discord is complicated and proprietary, and is only a single company, and other problems, and still needs some client software; IRC can be used even without any client software.
21:24:08 <Sinthorion> I've never seen an IRC channel not on Freenode. So while technically it can be hosted by any organisation, the fact is that everyone still uses the same.
21:24:41 <zzo38> I have seen other IRC networks, but mostly Freenode.
21:27:12 <b_jonas> I've seen more IRC channels on freenode than on the dozen or so other IRC networks that I ever joined taken all together
21:27:33 <zzo38> Yes, same with me
21:27:56 <zzo38> I currently have no IRC service in my computer, but I do have a NNTP server, and implemented a nonstandard command for convenience of people who are not using NNTP software, too.
21:29:37 <zzo38> (Because, I think that IRC and NNTP are much better than many of the more modern stuff.)
21:29:39 <osmarks> NNTP? Isn't that usenet?
21:29:44 <osmarks> i.e. very ancient?
21:29:55 <pikhq> I'm currently on 3 distinct IRC networks.
21:30:21 <zzo38> osmarks: Yes, although it is still in use, and improvements have been made since the original version.
21:30:49 <zzo38> (Actually, I may be responsible for increasing the article numbers from 31-bits to 63-bits.)
21:31:32 <b_jonas> just like how IRC gets a lot of new optional features all the time too
21:31:50 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose so.
21:32:34 <b_jonas> the good part is that they're all optional so you can support only the ones you want on your client
21:32:44 <b_jonas> the bad part is that many of them differ from network to network
21:32:52 <zzo38> Yes, is good that it is optional.
21:34:22 <zzo38> Well, the server often includes help files, and commands can be entered manually, so it isn't too much problem.
21:35:44 <pikhq> tradeoffs!
21:52:48 <b_jonas> sadly the help file doesn't tell about everything
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21:53:15 <zzo38> Some of the other stuff will be mentioned in the RFC
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23:49:24 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76401&oldid=76399 * TheCoderPro * (+265) /* Introductions */
23:52:43 <esowiki> [[NoRAL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76402&oldid=57291 * TheCoderPro * (+121) /* The Instruction set */
23:55:33 <esowiki> [[NoRAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76403&oldid=76402 * TheCoderPro * (+390) /* The Instruction set */
23:56:26 <esowiki> [[NoRAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76404&oldid=76403 * TheCoderPro * (+6) /* The Instruction set */
23:56:50 <esowiki> [[NoRAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76405&oldid=76404 * TheCoderPro * (+5) /* The Instruction set */
23:57:12 <esowiki> [[NoRAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76406&oldid=76405 * TheCoderPro * (+5) /* The Instruction set */
23:58:02 <esowiki> [[NoRAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76407&oldid=76406 * TheCoderPro * (+101) /* The Instruction set */
00:45:36 <esowiki> [[User:JonoCode9374]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76408&oldid=70795 * JonoCode9374 * (+69)
01:26:09 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76409&oldid=76372 * RocketRace * (+319) Clarify that this is not super-turing complete
01:27:12 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76410&oldid=76409 * RocketRace * (+0) Turing-complete => Turing complete
01:28:14 <imode> anybody interested in working on an esolang project.
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01:42:02 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76411&oldid=76410 * RocketRace * (+1) infinite -> subfinite
01:42:16 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76412&oldid=76411 * RocketRace * (+1) /* Control flow operations */
01:43:00 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76413&oldid=76412 * RocketRace * (+0) /* Surreal literals */
01:43:16 <zzo38> What esolang project is that?
01:54:16 <pikhq> idk, maybe, maybe not
01:54:22 <pikhq> been a while since i esolanged
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02:12:09 <zzo38> I would want to know what esolang project it is, and then maybe we can know the answer.
02:13:05 <imode> it involves writing a bunch of stuff on top of what amounts to a thue interpreter.
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02:28:39 <zzo38> OK
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03:28:09 <salpynx> I'm interested in hearing more about the esolang project based on Thue.
03:28:41 <salpynx> I've been playing with using substitution lists to interpret different languages. I'm working on something that can take a list of substitutions and interpret a language from that, using extended regexes. SKI beta-reduction and substitution based bf interpretation are the current targets.
03:31:20 <salpynx> "bunch of stuff on top of what amounts to a thue interpreter" sounds potentially similar?
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03:54:54 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76414&oldid=75361 * LegionMammal978 * (+84) added repo link
04:07:42 <imode> salpynx: yeah, I have a feeling you'd be interested. pm me if you want details.
04:18:04 <imode> it's gonna be building a tower of successive abstractions that reduce to rewrite rules to be run on an interpreter that can do rule matching in parallel.
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08:50:11 <int-e> I'm missing the daily Schlockmercenary update...
08:50:18 <int-e> fungot: entertain me
08:50:18 <fungot> int-e: ( now implement it. :)
08:50:22 <int-e> ouch
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11:41:52 <int-e> Oh did I mention that I had an opportunity to use the Pause key last week... still works, such fun.
11:43:22 <fizzie> I use the pause/break key several times every day.
11:43:29 <int-e> Because I couldn't remember (possibly I never knew) how to enable the pager in grub.
11:43:47 <fizzie> Then again, I've bound the "lock screen" action to it, since it's what I press when it's time to take a break. So maybe that doesn't count.
11:44:53 <int-e> I have not bound anything to it somehow...
11:45:36 <fizzie> The only problem is, laptop keyboards tend not to have it, so I need to have a redundant binding (mod-shift-l) for the laptop use case.
11:45:44 <int-e> But I did mean in the good(?) old-fashioned way that pauses a real mode program as long as the standard BIOS keyboard interrupt is in use. (Or does grub emulate that... either way it worked.)
11:47:33 <int-e> Mod3-L here, where Mod3 is Caps_Lock
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16:18:53 <b_jonas> "if you want to learn about conditional jump instructions, turn to chapter 8 (page 190)"
16:19:12 <b_jonas> hmm, do we have a wisdom like that?
16:19:32 <b_jonas> also
16:19:35 <b_jonas> `olist 1209
16:19:38 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1209.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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17:57:14 <fizzie> I don't think we have a wisdom exactly like that. We have a subversion of the obvious recursion joke, though, which is in the same general area of things.
17:57:17 <fizzie> `? recursion
17:57:18 <HackEso> You might expect a reference to recursion here, but to make it interesting you'll actuallSTACK OVERFLOW
17:58:46 <b_jonas> `forget ladder jump
17:58:48 <HackEso> Forget what?
18:01:37 <fizzie> `` learn 'A snake is just a directed vertical bridge in the negative orientation.' # just to complement the entry on ladder
18:01:40 <HackEso> Learned 'snake': A snake is just a directed vertical bridge in the negative orientation.
18:03:33 <shachaf> `cat bin/#
18:03:34 <HackEso> cat: bin/#: No such file or directory
18:03:42 <shachaf> Right.
18:03:43 <shachaf> `cbt #
18:03:44 <HackEso> sep='//`' \ [[ "$1" == ?*"$sep"* ]] || { echo 'Usage: `# <comment>'"$sep"'<command>' >&2 ; exit 1; } \ nur "${1#*$sep}"
18:04:02 <shachaf> I suppose having comments at the end is useful.
18:06:37 <b_jonas> `? ladder
18:06:38 <HackEso> A ladder is just a directed vertical bridge in the positive orientation.
18:07:00 <b_jonas> `? #
18:07:02 <HackEso> ​`# <comment>//`<command> is useful if you want to add a comment to HackEgo history for things like `sled or `le/rn.
18:07:12 <b_jonas> I usually just use the shell's comment feature though
18:08:54 <fizzie> Likewise. Though it's a little bit risky, you have to get quoting right.
18:11:05 <esowiki> [[VD3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76415&oldid=69816 * LegionMammal978 * (+552) added interpreter link and categories
18:11:41 <b_jonas> sure
18:12:57 <zzo38> Yes, comments are useful for that purpose, I think.
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18:14:02 <zzo38> Now the ticket menu of TeXnicard is alternating red/green each line (merely by the coincidence, I suppose).
18:17:25 <shachaf> Maybe a version of # that scans for the rightmost # would be useful.
18:18:08 <b_jonas> I don't find these useful simply because I already know and want to know how the unix commands work, I don't want to learn extra stuff unless it's really specific to HackEso
18:18:32 <b_jonas> but if you would use such a tool, sure, create such a command
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18:40:35 <fizzie> Some older high-color graphics modes could display 4, 32 or 64 kibicolors, and for a long time "true color" referred to having 16 mebicolors available, but HDR10 can represent a full gibicolor.
18:40:39 <fizzie> (I just wanted to use the binary SI prefixes for colors, there's no other point to that statement.)
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18:44:48 <zzo38> I think Amiga can display many colours but there is restriction how many colours next to each other, in the hold and modify mode.
18:48:58 <b_jonas> fizzie: see https://bendwavy.org/doodle/ that uses fractal stuff to show all colors in a 3D RGB color space in a 2D image
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19:36:25 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AlexIsOK * New user account
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20:26:51 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76416&oldid=76401 * AlexIsOK * (+302) /* Introductions */
20:27:02 <esowiki> [[E62qpodb593]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76417 * AlexIsOK * (+1846) init, needs some formatting though, for some reason code blocks won't work.
20:29:32 <esowiki> [[E62qpodb593]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76418&oldid=76417 * AlexIsOK * (+8)
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22:04:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Casini]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76419&oldid=76390 * Abbin21 * (+138) /* Example */
22:04:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Casini]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76420&oldid=76419 * Abbin21 * (+2) /* Example */
22:04:43 <esowiki> [[Casini]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76421&oldid=76389 * Abbin21 * (+0) /* Example code */
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22:14:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Casini]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76422&oldid=76420 * Abbin21 * (+31)
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22:47:50 <esowiki> [[Casini]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76423&oldid=76421 * Abbin21 * (+32) /* Example code */
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01:21:15 <esowiki> [[User:Orangeyy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76424&oldid=60182 * Orangeyy * (-12)
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03:17:41 <zzo38> Is there a way in CSS to scale pictures to the current font size?
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09:19:24 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76425&oldid=76398 * TwilightSparkle * (-8) /* COME BACK LYXAL!!! */
09:32:13 <int-e> `"
09:32:16 <HackEso> 1/1:1293) <zzo38> What time zone has time as a complex number? \ 539) <ais523> elliott: so what are the two issues with xfce? <elliott> they're very unlikely to fuck up Xfce, and it can be made to work basically exactly like gnome two
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10:46:47 <int-e> fungot: do you think that there's a way to do CVS right?
10:46:48 <fungot> int-e: and there is therefore much higher. for someone to integrate your libraries into their libraries by trying to adhere to the boundries defined by these pages. you are mad.
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11:07:34 <fizzie> Someone should write a version control system that stores all data in comma-separate files, they could call it CSVS.
11:09:38 <myname> why not CSVCS?
11:10:02 <myname> in that case, i think absurdity gets better with more letters
11:11:55 <fizzie> I did in fact type CSVCS first, but then thought it's missing the CVS reference somewhat.
11:12:28 <fizzie> DCSVCS would of course be the distributed variant.
11:14:50 <int-e> I was just reminsicing anyway... and I remembered Torvald's excellent burn of SVN :)
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12:18:15 <rain1> https://forums.swift.org/t/swift-type-checking-is-undecidable/39024
12:21:06 <myname> go ask c++ about it :D
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17:29:54 <esowiki> [[E62qpodb593]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76426&oldid=76418 * AlexIsOK * (+322) /* Examples */
17:35:14 <esowiki> [[E62qpodb593]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76427&oldid=76426 * AlexIsOK * (+78) /* Implementations */
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18:26:57 <b_jonas> question about English. how do I say "This museum is open all days of the week except Mondays." in such a way that an accidental truncation can't cause the listener to think that the museum is open on all days of the week including Mondays?
18:29:24 <myname> "this museum is open tuesday to sunday"?
18:29:55 <b_jonas> myname: ah yes, that should work, thank you
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18:50:38 <int-e> except for Mondays, the museum is open on all days of the week :-P
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18:51:39 <int-e> (I guess you can truncate on both ends and then this will not help)
18:51:48 <shachaf> But what if it's truncated to "the museum is open"?
18:51:57 <shachaf> People will assume that it's open unconditionally.
18:52:11 <b_jonas> shachaf: hmm
18:52:20 <b_jonas> good question
18:52:30 <b_jonas> this is why I hate English with its stupid rigid word ordr
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18:56:53 <zzo38> I think I read somewhere that the word order was less rigid in Old English, instead using a suffix to indicate a verb and so on. But, I am not sure; maybe I am mistaken.
18:57:54 <zzo38> At least, in English the first letter of a sentence is capitalized. Also, there may be ways to arrange the stuff on the sign to mitigate the effects of truncation.
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19:14:27 <fizzie> shachaf: "open from Tuesday to Sunday the museum is". And then a Yoda noise.
19:16:51 <b_jonas> fizzie: no, I think the right order is either, "The museum except on Mondays all days is open."
19:17:17 <b_jonas> and even "The museum is open excepting Mondays all days." is better than "The museum is open all days except Mondays."
19:20:17 <shachaf> Museum hours: Tue-Sun, 11:00-19:00
19:20:42 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, that's nice too
19:21:24 <int-e> sentences aren't holhograms or fractals
19:22:04 <int-e> Now how did I manage that extra h.
19:23:13 <shachaf> You really went the hol hog there.
19:27:20 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * McGoodmen * New user account
19:31:41 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76428&oldid=76416 * McGoodmen * (+245) /* Introductions */
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19:58:06 <zzo38> shachaf: That way probably is best, I think
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20:07:04 <esowiki> [[MdX]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76429&oldid=72754 * LegionMammal978 * (-96) fixed title
20:25:23 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hanzlu]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76430 * LegionMammal978 * (+390) Created page with "I'm not sure why you want a 3LEB Hello World program so desperately as to refuse to release the interpreter until you have one. It's literally trivial anyway: GAU 72 GAU 10..."
20:51:32 <esowiki> [[Sillycon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76431&oldid=72973 * LegionMammal978 * (+4) standardized capitalization
20:51:48 <esowiki> [[Sillycon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76432&oldid=76431 * LegionMammal978 * (+2) formatting is hard
20:51:57 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Sillycon]] to [[SillyCon]]: fix capitalization
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23:42:00 <esowiki> [[Casini]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76435&oldid=76423 * Abbin21 * (-150) /* Things worth noting */
23:42:37 <esowiki> [[Casini]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76436&oldid=76435 * Abbin21 * (+1) /* Example code */
23:45:09 <esowiki> [[Casini]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76437&oldid=76436 * Abbin21 * (+69)
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01:29:46 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician/Ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76438&oldid=76352 * ZippyMagician * (-2292) Fix a major issue in the docs
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02:18:30 <tswett[m]> All right, here's my favorite OEIS sequence today.
02:18:37 <tswett[m]> http://oeis.org/A139138 - Numbers divisible by at least two of their digits. :D
02:34:16 <pikhq> Aw, that's a cute sequence
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06:16:27 <esowiki> [[Grid]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76439&oldid=71289 * Hakerh400 * (-10)
06:17:09 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76440&oldid=76413 * RocketRace * (+754) Examples: Fib!
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07:01:40 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76441&oldid=76440 * RocketRace * (+46) /* Control flow operations */
07:14:14 <esowiki> [[Talk:E62qpodb593]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76442 * TwilightSparkle * (+314) Created page with "== Golfing language? == This looks too verbose to be a golfing language. Most golfing languages have straight-forward string outputting like <code>"Hello, World!"</code>, not..."
07:17:10 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76443&oldid=76425 * TwilightSparkle * (+90) /* Pop */
07:17:51 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76444&oldid=76443 * TwilightSparkle * (-10) /* Easy */
07:39:13 <rain1> http://oeis.org/A087140
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07:57:04 <esowiki> [[NoRAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76445&oldid=76407 * TheCoderPro * (+79) /* External resources */
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08:22:37 <Taneb> Hmm, I imagine A139138 would increase roughly logarithmically
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10:27:20 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76446&oldid=76441 * RocketRace * (+26) Base 32!
10:40:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RealestLink * New user account
10:44:44 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76447&oldid=76428 * RealestLink * (+237)
10:48:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76448&oldid=75596 * RealestLink * (+1) Fixed the invite link to "Compilers and Interpreters"
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12:32:19 <wib_jonas> question. have you designed or implemented some kind of network protocol, like HTTP or IRC or ssh but not something as well-spread but possibly just a toy application that only you use, and that intends to have a tcp server listening on a fixed port for a long time, whether to do all the communication or just for initiating a connection? if so,
12:32:19 <wib_jonas> have you tried to add a feature such that if someone accidentally connects to that tcp server with an entirely wrong client, such as a HTTP browser or telnet client, then the server will likely send them a human-readable message that tells them what they did wrong and optionally what this tcp server is for?
12:33:13 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Razetime * New user account
12:33:38 <wib_jonas> and if so, have you tried to optimize this such that you can send this reply possibly immediately as a fixed header, or at least after the other party sends just very little data to you and without having to wait for a long timeout?
12:36:37 <wib_jonas> Taneb: "I imagine A139138 would increase roughly logarithmically" => impossible, it is a strictly increasing sequence of integers that contains every integer that is congruent to 11 modulo 100
12:37:33 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76449&oldid=76447 * Razetime * (+160) /* Introductions */
12:37:44 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76450&oldid=76131 * Razetime * (+40) Added truth machine
12:40:20 <Taneb> wib_jonas: that is true
13:05:21 <esowiki> [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76451&oldid=76191 * TwilightSparkle * (-41) /* Commands and syntax */ Wrong
13:09:22 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76452&oldid=76444 * TwilightSparkle * (+124) /* Hard */
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13:46:05 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76453&oldid=76450 * TwilightSparkle * (-447) /* Computational class */ The proof is completely wrong.
13:49:30 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76454&oldid=76453 * TwilightSparkle * (+88) /* Computational class */
13:49:53 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76455&oldid=76454 * TwilightSparkle * (-2) /* Computational class */
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14:08:45 <ais523> wib_jonas: I implemented such a service, but the outermost layer is TLS and if someone unexpected tries to connect, the TLS won't even work
14:08:52 <ais523> so there's no scope to do something like you're suggesting
14:09:10 <ais523> you would need to put such a fixed-error-message output into the TLS implementation rather than the application
14:09:18 <int-e> "Copyrighted material are also strictly prohibited." -- always a good laugh, that.
14:09:29 <ais523> I imagine other people in the same situation would have had the same issue
14:09:57 <wib_jonas> ais523: thank you. but will it fail also if someone connects with a different client that uses TLS, such as a HTTPS client or IRC client with TLS enabled?
14:10:25 <wib_jonas> or does TLS have a built-in high-level protocol marker that you're using for this?
14:11:05 <wib_jonas> and yes, for that you'd probably have to modify the TLS library to support this
14:11:11 <ais523> the server end wouldn't be able to see what the client end was sending due to a certificate error
14:11:30 <ais523> from the client end, I think it'd just see the connection closing
14:11:42 <wib_jonas> ais523: you don't need to see what the client is sending to send an error message
14:11:46 <ais523> I guess you could modify the TLS library to send something using the client's actual certificate even if it wasn't recognised
14:11:50 <wib_jonas> ais523: so you're using a client certificate?
14:11:51 <wib_jonas> ok
14:11:55 <ais523> yes, client certificate
14:12:04 <wib_jonas> ok, that explains it
14:12:13 <ais523> I guess most people don't do that
14:12:18 <ais523> but it's a very simple way to do auth
14:13:06 <wib_jonas> sure, but you could also do it optionally, as in run a single Apache that listens on https, and some of the things it serve require a client cert, but just a hello world page or an error message doesn't
14:13:16 <wib_jonas> s/serve/serves/
14:14:42 <ais523> I guess you could make it work
14:15:08 <ais523> although, I'm not going to for my project, because the amount of development effort required, and the risk of introducing a security bug, would be disproportionate to the benefit
14:15:26 <ais523> (especially as this was for work so I need to justify what I'm spending my time on)
14:15:37 <wib_jonas> it's not "make it work", if I want to serve something on https, as opposed to tls in general, than I will probably put it behind an Apache because it handles the peksy server-side details of HTTP
14:15:40 <int-e> Hmm, what's the story on the discord front? (This change, https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76448&oldid=75596 ... basically I'm wondering whether there are now two competing rooms/channels/whatever the name, or whether the former is gone)
14:16:44 <wib_jonas> int-e: I think discord links can expire after some time, maybe it expired?
14:17:35 <int-e> Just something to keep an eye for a while on I suppose.
14:17:46 <int-e> I'm not curious enough to actually try out discord for this.
14:18:03 <wib_jonas> it's a bit weird, they use time-limited invite links, but the links have so little entropy that you could brute-force yourself into random discords easily such that any discord can't be kept private from that
14:18:16 <uplime> int-e: they both look to go to the same discord server fwiw
14:18:18 <wib_jonas> I don't use discord so maybe this is not true and I just don't understand it
14:19:11 <wib_jonas> but I hear from other people who use discord (and just this morning I just found out that another IRC channel that I'm on had a bridge from discord and two more forums in two more chat protocols different from IRC or discord)
14:19:23 <wib_jonas> s/this morning/this night/
14:20:49 <int-e> uplime: thanks, that's reassuring
14:26:01 <int-e> does anybody know why the esowiki has lemons for its logo?
14:27:54 <ais523> they are limes
14:28:09 <ais523> and it was originally just picked from a list of placeholder images as a placeholder, but we grew to like it
14:29:32 <uplime> i think its a good logo personally
14:29:36 <uplime> unobjectively
14:30:05 <wib_jonas> ais523: ah, like the colored wavy lines in the left side of my homepage, which were placeholders and I meant to replace them with better images, at least with wavy lines with different shapes, but nice vertical banners for this purpose aren't easy to find, and I was lazy, so I just have wavy lines there forever.
14:31:25 <wib_jonas> maybe another 12 years from now, when I do a major revision on that homepage ...
14:33:39 <wib_jonas> as for meaningless images that I never replace, I have another story. I sometimes set different desktop background images on different desktop computers just so it's easier to tell at a glance which computer I'm working on.
14:35:31 <ais523> I've started doing that with shell prompts
14:35:47 <ais523> it's easy to miss the hostname in the prompt if you aren't concentrating, so I've been making them different colors on different computers
14:36:01 <wib_jonas> now at my current job, I use some virtualized windows machines, and I even have some where I installed some software and then gave copies of the image to coworkers to use. I put different desktop backgrounds to them for the above mentioned reason, and now I also replace the background before I give a copy to a coworker, because they're sometimes
14:36:02 <wib_jonas> lazy to change the background and then I ended up with a vm that has the same background as vms that another coworker uses.
14:36:51 <wib_jonas> hmm, in fact, I should look for a replacement background image for that particular vm image right now, and replace it in my local copy the next time I boot it up, because that situation still hasn't got resolved;
14:38:26 <wib_jonas> though with the more recent image that I distributed, I was careful enough to change the background immediately, so now the latest vm has rape seed field as the background in my version buy cotton bale as the background in the distributed version.
14:39:09 <wib_jonas> oh yeah, the images also lead to easy naming the vm.
14:40:14 <wib_jonas> hmm yeah, in fact I should change the descriptive name of this vm instance (which is for information display purposes only, doesn't change anything, but easily visible even when the VM is not running) to include "rape seeed"
14:40:57 <wib_jonas> oh crap, I'm not allowed to change the descriptive name while the VM is running
14:42:10 <wib_jonas> so anyway, this also gives a possible solution for the hard problem of naming
14:42:32 <wib_jonas> admittedly the descriptive name of the VM also has some meaningful non-arbitrary parts
14:42:45 <wib_jonas> but those keep clashing too much
14:43:44 <wib_jonas> because, you know "I know, I'll call this vm 'win10' to distinguish from the previous vm which runs windows 7" then 6 months later "crap, now the next vm will be running windows 10 as well"
14:44:19 <int-e> ais523: cheers, I can stop wondering about a hidden meaning then :)
14:44:58 <wib_jonas> it's easier not to choose another rape seed photo as background for the next meaningless background image
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16:13:13 <wib_jonas> of course I also have to choose a background that is not such a cliche that someone else would independently choose to use it as a desktop background, eg. I won't use a plain grass or wheat pasture hill or partly clouded sky unless it has some more specific recognizable feature.
16:14:08 <wib_jonas> A rape seed field is common enough in reality in Hungary that it feels pleasant and neutral enough for a background, but not cliche enough that I'll have coworkers with confusable rape seed fields as their desktop background.
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16:18:57 <zzo38> wib_jonas: To your question from before, does NNTP count? However, I have not implemented any attempt to answer HTTP requests, and am not sure how.
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16:30:13 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76456&oldid=76455 * LegionMammal978 * (+1) automaton is the singular form
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17:44:37 <zzo38> If the user does type HELP though then it does mention which RFC to read
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18:24:19 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks/!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76457 * Osmarks * (+2190) Created page with "{{Deletedpage}} {{infobox proglang |name= |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:Heavpoot]] |year=[[:Category:2020|2020]] |memsys=No memory |dimensions=No dimensions |class=No..."
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19:08:45 <esowiki> [[HELP (Preprocessor)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76458&oldid=74795 * LegionMammal978 * (+78) added repo link
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19:44:38 <esowiki> [[Auo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76459&oldid=75196 * LegionMammal978 * (+15) /* External resources */ fixed it
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20:07:33 <zzo38> Do you like the kind of random padding that I had made up for cryptographic use?
20:13:19 <shachaf> I don't know what padding you made up.
20:13:35 <zzo38> I mentioned it on this IRC before, probably a few days ago
20:14:35 <shachaf> Oh, that makes sense.
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20:24:46 <esowiki> [[Spite]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76460&oldid=75643 * LegionMammal978 * (-15) /* External resources */ fixed link
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20:46:53 <zzo38> I will repeat it, I suppose.
20:48:21 <zzo38> Start with one byte length of random data, and then random data, and then a checksum of the entire stream so far, and then the sequence number (which is the first sequence number is secret), and then the length of the payload data, and then the payload data; that makes one frame.
20:48:41 <zzo38> (Data can be arbitrarily split into frames)
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20:52:53 <esowiki> [[Polynomial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76461&oldid=75933 * LegionMammal978 * (-1642) don't use that it's broken
21:04:50 <esowiki> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76462&oldid=76109 * LegionMammal978 * (-1) The About and Policy pages call it Esolang
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21:54:08 <int-e> b_jonas: Oh the July Ponder This challenge solutions is published. They list German as a possible way to get the Fibonacci sequence, from A = AH and H = HAH. (I found this, but I thought that being a native speaker was *not* an advantage in this case.)
21:55:04 <int-e> `? password
21:55:07 <HackEso> The password of the month is still up for grabs.
21:55:16 <b_jonas> int-e: do you have a link handy?
21:55:19 <int-e> . o O ( Time for shachaf to have another panic attack. )
21:55:31 <int-e> b_jonas: this? http://www.research.ibm.com/haifa/ponderthis/solutions/July2020.html
21:55:39 <uplime> is there a datastructure better suited for representing an AST than say a linked list?
21:55:45 <int-e> b_jonas: or this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_spelling_alphabet#Basic_alphabet
21:55:47 <shachaf> int-e: Hmm?
21:56:01 <b_jonas> thanks
21:56:05 <int-e> shachaf: It's another month and I just queried the potm
21:56:08 <b_jonas> the former
21:56:27 <b_jonas> I thought the solution had more details
21:56:49 <int-e> shachaf: I do hope that you're not suffering from literal panic attacks.
21:57:04 <int-e> b_jonas: Yeah it's a bit disappointing that it doesn't.
21:57:51 <shachaf> `learn The password of the month is the same as last month's.
21:57:53 <int-e> > let f 'a' = "ah"; f 'h' = "hah" in take 10 $ map length (iterate (>>= f) "a")
21:57:55 <lambdabot> [1,2,5,13,34,89,233,610,1597,4181]
21:58:11 <int-e> b_jonas: it's not the Fibonacci sequence, it's every second term.
21:58:19 <int-e> > let f 'a' = "ah"; f 'h' = "hah" in take 10 $ map length (iterate (>>= f) "h")
21:58:21 <lambdabot> [1,3,8,21,55,144,377,987,2584,6765]
21:58:25 <int-e> and those are the other terms
21:59:07 <b_jonas> int-e: yes
22:00:43 <int-e> b_jonas: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/p2020-07.txt were my notes for the bonus part
22:04:32 <b_jonas> is there something that generalizes certain ordinal notations to let us compute with a certain subset of surreal numbers?
22:05:25 <b_jonas> ok stupid question, sorry
22:05:56 <b_jonas> obviously http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2011-11-13.1964.nombres-surreels.html answers that. I should have looked there first
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23:05:27 <ais523> looking for some stupid bit-twiddling tricks help: can anyone suggest an efficient way to identify the fifth-least-significant set bit in a number?
23:06:37 <b_jonas> ais523: sorry, uh, I'm too tired for that, look in Warren's Hacker's Delight 2nd ed, which is right here on my shelf but I'm going to bed and can't think clear enough to interpret the book
23:06:46 <ais523> hmm, actually, there's a shortcut in my problem: I know that all bits above it will be set (but the bit immediately below might also be set, so I can't just look for the top 0)
23:07:18 <b_jonas> ais523: in that case don't you just do a popcount and then a subtraction or something?
23:07:21 <ais523> so I can count the number of set bits and that probably gives the answer directly?
23:07:22 <ais523> yes
23:07:26 <b_jonas> yeah, that
23:08:19 <ais523> this doesn't actually need to be efficient, but I can't bear to write the loop
23:08:57 <b_jonas> ais523: popcount then, and find an existing implementation of popcount for whatever you're writing this in, I can even help in that part if you need
23:09:23 <ais523> I'm writing in Rust which has popcount in the standard library, fortunately
23:09:36 <b_jonas> good
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23:15:52 <int-e> ais523: By "loop", do you mean four times x = x & (x-1), followed by x & -x?
23:16:32 <ais523> int-e: I was thinking about something stupider; that version, I /could/ bear to write, although it still seems less elegant than it needs to be
23:16:57 <ais523> oh, I figured it out, anyway, start with 0b10000 and then do an inverse select on the original number
23:17:04 <ais523> (inverse-select is a builtin on x86)
23:17:32 <ais523> although that probably isn't in Rust's standard library
23:17:33 <int-e> there's https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/pdep (which apparently is really slow on Zen)
23:18:14 <int-e> (which would allow you to deposit 0x10 into the work you want to analyze to give you the 5th bit)
23:18:51 <ais523> ah right, pdep is what it's called
23:18:55 <int-e> maybe there's an intrinsic for that.
23:19:04 <ais523> that's the instruction I was thinking of, I remembered the instruction but couldn't remember the name
23:19:10 <shachaf> Do you need the index of the bit or just to have it set?
23:19:10 <int-e> (probably but I hate looking this up)
23:19:35 <ais523> pext/pdep aren't methods of u64 in Rust, at least
23:19:37 <ais523> shachaf: need the index
23:19:50 <int-e> what else... bsl in a loops (eww)
23:20:02 <int-e> *loop
23:20:21 <int-e> but the index is just a popcount away from finding the mask
23:20:26 <ais523> my superoptimiser almost certainly isn't powerful enough to find this
23:20:37 <shachaf> Rust supports inline assembly now, right?
23:20:59 <ais523> you wouldn't use it in this situation anyway, if you want to write platform-specific code there are bindings to all the asm instructions individually
23:21:06 <b_jonas> "inverse-select is a builtin on x86" => only on cpus newer than the ones that have popcount though
23:21:25 <int-e> b_jonas: how does popcount solve this problem?
23:21:28 <b_jonas> ais523: I think they do have a library that contains most x86 intrinsics though
23:21:29 <ais523> in this case, pub unsafe fn _pdep_u64(a: u64, mask: u64) -> u64
23:21:31 <int-e> I don't think it does
23:21:56 <ais523> int-e: it solves it in the situation where you know that all the bits above the one you want are 1 bits (but some of the bits immediately below might be too)
23:21:59 <ais523> which is the case for me
23:21:59 <shachaf> int-e: I think it works here, since all the higher bits are set?
23:22:16 <int-e> ais523: I still don't see how
23:22:41 <ais523> int-e: you know that there are precisely four 1 bits below the one you want, so all but five 1 bits must be above
23:22:54 <int-e> oh right.
23:22:57 <b_jonas> the functions in the rust library are btw named the same as the intel compiler intrinsic functions, which all of intel, ms, gcc compilers have in a standard header
23:22:59 <int-e> okay, that was stupid.
23:23:07 <ais523> and there are no 0 bits above, thus knowing how many 1 bits are above gives you the number of bits above and thus the index of the bit you want
23:23:28 <b_jonas> I looked at it once, and found a few things missing that I reported, but haven't bothered to write the patch for it yet
23:23:56 <b_jonas> yeah, that stuff you said, _pdep_u64
23:24:05 <ais523> come to think of it, this might make an interesting codegolf problem
23:24:23 <ais523> (the "fifth-least-significant set bit" problem in the general case)
23:24:57 <shachaf> I'm looking for a reference on the first use of the reasonable precedence parsing algorithm (sometimes called "precedence climbing" or "Pratt parsing" or other names).
23:25:21 <shachaf> Someone attributes it to the BCPL compiler, but I can't find the code for that.
23:25:23 <int-e> Hmm. I wonder how the 1252 threashold in http://www.research.ibm.com/haifa/ponderthis/challenges/August2020.html was chosen.
23:25:35 <int-e> ... threshold
23:25:43 <ais523> I have a book about compilers that uses BCPL for its examples, and talks about "operator-precedence parsing"
23:25:57 <shachaf> Which book?
23:26:10 <ais523> from memory, "Understanding and Writing Compilers" by Bornat
23:26:14 <ais523> but I may have misremembered
23:26:18 <b_jonas> shachaf: reference on first use of the reasonable precedence parsing algorithm => look in TAOCP volume 5, TAOCP usually tells about the history
23:26:20 <int-e> (It seems too high to make this interesting. And the * bonus looks too hard.)
23:27:43 <int-e> ais523: I didn't realise how restrictive that additional constraint (no 0 bits above the one you want) really is.
23:27:58 <int-e> So... yeah, stupid.
23:28:22 <shachaf> The algorithm is so simple that it seems silly to give it a name, but also many people (including me) find it nonobvious before they see it.
23:28:57 <shachaf> But people write much more complicated precedence parsing code all the time.
23:29:20 <ais523> int-e: my guess is that the people setting the problem tried to solve it for some length of time and 1252 was their best score
23:29:36 <b_jonas> shachaf: those are some of the best algorithms, the ones that are trivial and beautiful after you understand it, but look like magic that nobody could possibly have invented before that
23:29:56 <shachaf> b_jonas: I don't have TAOCP unfortunately (except for two fascicles).
23:30:08 <ais523> ayacc will generate operator-precedence parsing code as an optimisation in some cases
23:30:10 <int-e> ais523: Yeah but the first thing I tried got it down to 1235.
23:30:13 <shachaf> b_jonas: I think Floyd's algorithm that we discussed the other day is like this.
23:30:23 <ais523> int-e: maybe you just got lucky?
23:30:33 <int-e> Doubt it.
23:31:12 <b_jonas> shachaf: no problem, nobody has volume 5 yet, it's not yet written, you have many years before it will be published, so since you already have to wait, it doesn't matter that you haven't bought it yet
23:31:32 <int-e> (This is hardly a spoiler, it's pretty much the most obvious attempt: I added a single losing position, and no winning position.)
23:31:56 <ais523> adding a losing position may cause some losing positions to become winning, though
23:32:07 <ais523> so the exact details would matter
23:32:20 <int-e> I tried all possibilities.
23:32:37 * int-e shrugs.
23:32:51 <ais523> the tortoise-and-hare cycle-finding algorithm is something I found very non-obvious before I saw it
23:33:16 <int-e> And yes, it turns some losing positions into winning positions. That is the point really, because the goal is to get as few losing positions as possible.
23:33:51 <int-e> Ah well.
23:34:14 <shachaf> ais523: Oh, that wasn't the Floyd's algorithm I meant, I meant the one for sampling.
23:34:19 <shachaf> I suppose Floyd has many algorithms.
23:34:34 <ais523> shachaf: huh, that's coincidence, I thought of the algorithm itself without realising the Floyd connection
23:35:05 <ais523> (also, Wikipedia isn't sure that Floyd actually created the tortoise-and-hare algorithm)
23:35:30 <shachaf> Nevertheless I've heard people call it "Floyd's algorithm".
23:35:45 <ais523> yes
23:35:49 <shachaf> I like the Pollard's lambda algorithm for finding cycles.
23:35:53 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah. and the algorithm to find a birthday attack on a black box function with range 2**n with O(2**(n/2)) queries but with memory usage of only a O(2**(n/4)) sized hash table of values
23:36:01 <shachaf> It seems much more practical in situations where you can use it.
23:36:19 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_detection attributes it to Floyd
23:36:31 <b_jonas> and yes, the Pollard rho algorithm for prime factorization, which is based on that
23:36:41 <ais523> int-e: it states that it's often referred to as Floyd's algorithm, but starts by disputing that attribution
23:37:04 <b_jonas> oh yeah, Floyd's algorithm is also like that
23:37:05 <int-e> b_jonas: the point of that one is that it's parallelizable, right?
23:37:05 <shachaf> I suppose that for Pollard's rho factoring algorithm you have to use the "turtle and hare" method, you can't use the lambda trick, right?
23:37:09 <ais523> b_jonas: we're assuming that the function has an infinite domain, right?
23:37:24 <b_jonas> I mean Floyd's algorithm to compute each pair of distances in a graph with weighted edges
23:37:27 <shachaf> Because you don't actually have an identity you can distinguish.
23:37:34 <int-e> ais523: Funny, it doesn't do that in the initial description.
23:37:55 <b_jonas> int-e: that's just one point, but that part isn't too surprising, more surprising is that it needs less storage
23:38:34 <ais523> <b_jonas> I mean Floyd's algorithm to compute each pair of distances in a graph with weighted edges ← for TAEB::AI::Planar I created my own pathfinding algorithm designed to be efficient at doing that
23:38:42 <ais523> but also at updating the cache when the graph changed slightly
23:38:51 <int-e> Brent's variant is usually faster anyway.
23:39:05 <shachaf> Wait, let me remember how Pollard's factoring algorithm works.
23:39:18 <int-e> b_jonas: But that's a lot of memory...
23:39:40 <int-e> b_jonas: The basic cycle finding just needs to keep track of a couple of values.
23:39:42 <b_jonas> int-e: um, that depends on how large n is
23:39:53 <ais523> how fast is the birthday attack for finding collisions in a function where you start with a value that isn't in the range, then you repeatedly feed it its own output?
23:40:12 <ais523> that's O(n) memory, but I'm not sure what the efficiency is
23:40:18 <b_jonas> int-e: ok, then the point IS that it's parallelizable, you pay memory to be parallelizable
23:40:35 <int-e> b_jonas: Yes that was my point.
23:40:39 <fizzie> I found Floyd-Steinberg dithering unintuitive at first. But maybe I just initially saw it explained badly. On the other hand, there's a cute cat in the Wikipedia page about it.
23:41:03 <shachaf> ais523: This is what the "distinguished point"/lambda trick is about, right?
23:41:12 <b_jonas> I find this important because for a crypto hash of size n=256, you need 2**64 entries of storage instead of 2**128, and while 2**128 storage is something I can't imagine, 2**64 entries of storage is tantalizingly close to what Google could have in a few years if they really wanted to, whereas 2**128 entries of memory is something I can't imagine without our civilization being totally unrecognizable
23:41:14 <ais523> I assume it's O(2**(n/2)) because I've used it in practice to find a collision in SHA-256 truncated to 64 bits
23:41:26 <ais523> and that seems like it would take too long if it were O(2**64)
23:41:29 <int-e> ais523: It's expected to be O(2^(n/2)), but parallelizes badly (d parallel processes doing that end up taking O(2^(n/2)/sqrt(d)) time, I think)
23:41:43 <ais523> int-e: ah, OK
23:41:49 <b_jonas> in particular, there's an estimate that all hard disk existing in year 2018 have a total capacity approximately 2**88 bits
23:41:55 <b_jonas> or 2**85 bytes or so
23:41:59 <shachaf> You have a time/memory tradeoff that you can set however you want. There's no real reason to set it to the square root, is there?
23:42:19 <ais523> b_jonas: I can imagine 2**64 storage entries, however I can't imagine a system that can fill them in reasonable time
23:42:21 <b_jonas> and it's reasonable to assume that a large quantity of those hard disks are used by Google in their server rooms
23:42:25 <shachaf> You can set it based on how much storage you want to use.
23:42:31 <ais523> if these are random access and we assume we don't use most of them, it's believable
23:43:11 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, it's still not a feasable attack yet, but the storage size is not the limit
23:43:19 <shachaf> fizzie: That's a pretty cute cat.
23:43:47 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, it needn't be exactly the fourth root
23:43:54 <shachaf> The undithered version is a bit less cute.
23:44:18 <ais523> b_jonas: actually, I think Google almost certainly uses more than 2**-21 of the world's storage capacity, that's less than a millionth
23:44:29 <ais523> so Google probably had 2**64 bits of storage already in 2018
23:45:40 <int-e> ais523: https://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/52231/what-is-the-best-and-fastest-algorithm-to-generate-a-hash-collision has some references
23:46:04 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, that's what I'm thinking too, but I also think 2**64 *bits* might not be enough, you need 2**64 half-entries, each 64 bits long, (or maybe quarter entries or so), so it's more like 2**70 bits
23:46:30 <ais523> ah right
23:46:55 <b_jonas> but I'm not sure about either number here so I can't tell if Google has reached this yet
23:47:11 <fizzie> I'd check how much data is stored in [REDACTED], but it'd almost certainly be a confidential number.
23:47:45 <int-e> . o O ( so many [REDACTED] bytes )
23:48:10 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, though I've seen some estimates based on public data
23:48:47 <fizzie> It's pretty hard to find public information about that sort of thing, I think Amazon has also only publicly said how many *objects* there are in S3, not how many bytes.
23:49:45 <b_jonas> I was also wondering how many devices (smartphones) are there that run Android (2**31 right now, it turns out), and how much total GPU FLOPS, total CPU FLOPS, total storage, total RAM, and median RAM they have;
23:50:00 <shachaf> fizzie: I wonder how that changed since I had access to [REDACTED]
23:50:22 <fizzie> Well, curiosity got the better of me, and I checked [REDACTED]. I can in strictest confidence let you know it's still a number, it hasn't turned into any sort of weird concept that transcends numbers. Well, unless the interface hides that.
23:50:37 -!- salpynx has joined.
23:50:56 <b_jonas> though I do admit that an attack that backdoors a significant number of android devices such that it uses them for some meaningful computation would be very impractical.
23:51:12 <shachaf> Oh man, we should do some sort of millionaire problem.
23:51:14 <ais523> it wouldn't necessarily need to be a backdoor
23:51:16 <b_jonas> I was asking about this on another channel, but I haven't found out anyting other than the number of devices yet
23:51:41 <b_jonas> shachaf: yeah, that's what I was thinking of, to determine if the redacted problems are equal
23:51:59 <b_jonas> oh wait, you mean not whether the projects are the same but for which one uses more storage?
23:52:09 <ais523> there are apps that are installed on a high proportion of phones, if one of them decided to do some distributed computing (perhaps even with the users' permission) it could get a lot done
23:52:35 <fizzie> There was a ridiculous spike in capacity of Folding@home with the covid thing.
23:52:57 <fizzie> "With heightened interest in the project as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic,[7] the system achieved a speed of approximately 1.22 exaflops by late March 2020 and reaching 2.43 exaflops by April 12, 2020,[8] making it the world's first exaflop computing system."
23:53:20 <ais523> is exa one level above peta?
23:53:25 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, I know, but still it's hard to make them do a computation that does anything useful
23:53:49 <ais523> these are numbers so large that I find it hard to remember even what they're named
23:53:50 <fizzie> Exa is indeed one level above peta, and it's also the last level that sounds even borderline reasonable.
23:53:57 <fizzie> Because nobody's going to take zetta and yotta seriously.
23:54:06 <int-e> "IBM announced Thursday[don't you love such references in an online article without date] that after five years of work, its researchers have been able to reduce from about one million to 12 the number of atoms required to create a bit of data."
23:54:24 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, tera is 1000**4, peta is 1000**5, exa is 1000**6, zetta is 1000**7, yotta is 1000*8, the mnemonic is that the words are similar to tetra, penta, hexa, septa, octa
23:54:31 <b_jonas> with one consonant removed from each
23:54:44 <ais523> b_jonas: huh, was that intentional?
23:54:55 <ais523> it's a hard pattern to notice unless it's pointed out
23:55:30 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, I didn't know it for a while and I kept confusing them all the time. I think it was intentional for at least for some of them, though perhaps not for tera
23:55:33 <ais523> and it doesn't generalize backwards, "giga" is nothing like "tri"
23:55:53 <int-e> well mega and giga are just large
23:55:53 <b_jonas> ais523: nor for the prefixes smaller than 1
23:56:01 <fizzie> I finally heard a mnemonic for stalactite/stalagmite that I can actually remember the other day: stalaGmites rise from the Ground, while stalaCtites hang from the Ceiling.
23:56:12 <b_jonas> int-e: and tera is like terra which is earth which is large... very helpful
23:56:17 <ais523> I learned that in school, I think
23:56:36 <fizzie> It doesn't work in Finnish, I'm sure they'd've told it to us too otherwise.
23:57:02 <b_jonas> fizzie: I didn't bother to remember the stalagmite thing, I don't do spelunking and will never do it in the future, so I don't think that nomenclature can ever matter for anything I do
23:57:17 <int-e> fizzie: statlacTITeS hang from the ceiling... that one works in german as well :P
23:57:34 <b_jonas> plus all my spelologist friends speak Hungarian and you can just use the Hungarian names which aren't so crazy
23:57:34 <int-e> (ignore the ceiling, it's all about hanging)
23:58:10 <b_jonas> they are combined from simple words and have obvious etimologies, just like rare words do in any sane language except English
23:58:14 <ais523> how many spelologist friends do you have?
23:58:18 <Arcorann> It's why people have proposed extending the prefixes with stuff like "xona"
23:58:25 <int-e> And I think I learned this as a teenager... not in school though, for some reason. :P
23:58:58 <b_jonas> ais523: depends on how you count "friend", they're all my mother's friends because she goes to caves a lot, although not as a spelologist, but as a teacher
23:58:59 <fizzie> int-e: Stephen Fry said the mnemonic he was taught in school was based on "tights hang down".
23:59:10 <b_jonas> but like a dozen
23:59:12 <int-e> fizzie: cute
23:59:19 <fizzie> (This was in QI, which is where I got the ground/ceiling bit too.)
23:59:23 <Arcorann> I've heard a bunch of mnemonics, but I
23:59:33 <Arcorann> 'll always remember Hagrid in Harry Potter just failing
23:59:45 <esowiki> [[The Past]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76463&oldid=76129 * LegionMammal978 * (+253) fixed implementation
23:59:48 <int-e> Arcorann: aww, I was hoping for "I don't remember any of them"
00:00:30 <b_jonas> they are nice company, I don't have any problem with them, I only have a problem with *me* going into a cave
00:00:35 <ais523> at school, we got taught things like mnemonics for what order the colors in the rainbow were in
00:00:51 <ais523> but it isn't very useful because people aren't taught basic things like what colours indigo and violet actually are
00:01:11 <ais523> (violet is especially problematic because most computer screens are incapable of showing it accurately, and most printers are incapable of printing it accurately)
00:01:35 <b_jonas> Arcorann: yes, because just like me, Hagrid knows that that nomenclature doesn't matter for anything he does and so doesn't try to remember it. he's not a school age child anymore, having to learn thousands of useless facts to get a good grade, nor a lawyer or doctor
00:02:18 <ais523> I think one reason they teach what they do in school is that it is hard to know in advance which facts will be useful
00:02:32 <b_jonas> ais523: they're also incapable of showing or printing just about any pure one-wavelength light color
00:02:57 <b_jonas> you could probably make a laser monitor that can show a few of them, but not all
00:03:01 <ais523> indeed
00:03:04 <b_jonas> but it would be horribly impractical
00:03:23 <int-e> b_jonas: then again our perception of colors is very limited too
00:03:25 <ais523> although, colours outside the red-blue range seem like they're a bigger problem to show than colours inside but not matching your pixel colour
00:03:33 <ais523> at least you can interpolate for colours in range
00:03:46 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, although there are very good reasons for why they're limited
00:04:44 <fizzie> b_jonas: I imagine you could make some sort of a refraction-based monitor that could do arbitrary wavelengths by having a mask in-between prisms or something for the color, and then something DLP-style to do the image.
00:05:15 <int-e> I wonder what color we'd get if something would trigger only one of the green or orange receptors in the eye. (M and L types here, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIE_1931_color_space)
00:05:16 <fizzie> Not a particularly bright one, but still.
00:05:45 <b_jonas> int-e: specifically you can't see infrared light because your body at your eye emits them as thermal radiation and the light emitted by your body that reaches your eyes will drown out any useful signal from the outside
00:05:50 <ais523> int-e: you can see something like that by looking at something intensely purple for a long time so that the red and blue receptors run out of neurotransmitter
00:05:59 <ais523> and then looking at something green
00:06:01 <int-e> (this would require something special... probably a laser aimed at individual cone cells)
00:06:15 <int-e> hmm
00:06:21 <int-e> interesting idea
00:07:00 <ais523> I've done that experiment with orange, the resulting colour just looks orange, but is perceived as "more orange" than an orange thing nearby (viewed by receptors with a normal neurotransmitter supply)
00:07:04 <b_jonas> int-e: one of those impossible colors that you can only see as an afterimage, green or yellow that is purer than the green or yellow of a single frequency light
00:07:26 <b_jonas> ah yes, what ais523 says
00:08:06 <b_jonas> what you can do more easily is to see objects that are brighter than pure white is:
00:08:13 <fizzie> Ha, someone's done something a little like that, except (of course) with a diffraction grating rather than a prism.
00:08:25 <ais523> something I learned recently is that we actually know what colours colorblind people see, at least for protanopia and deuteranopia
00:08:29 <fizzie> "Agile Spectrum Imaging: Programmable Wavelength Modulation for Cameras and Projectors"
00:08:48 <ais523> because there are some people who are colourblind in only one eye, and they can use one eye to learn what colours are named and the other eye to view them colorblindly
00:08:54 <fizzie> "We use a diffraction grating to disperse the rays into different colors, and introduce a mask (or LCD/DMD) in the optical path to modulate the spectrum."
00:09:02 <int-e> I guess we do get pretty pure red and pure blue, so the middle range (closer to orange than to green? maybe.) is indeed the interesting one.
00:09:24 <b_jonas> that's why non-black washing detergents have a pigment-thingy that remains on the clothes and converts incoming ultraviolet light to visible light, fluorescent or something, so ideally those clothes can be brighter than white, though usually they're just brighter than before but still darker than white,
00:09:38 <b_jonas> the easiest way to see actually brighter than white is car registration plates with a white background
00:09:46 <b_jonas> at least if they're not dirty
00:09:51 <ais523> yes, converting UV to visible light is known as fluorescence
00:10:22 <ais523> also, I didn't think registration plates fluoresced, they're just reflective
00:10:36 <ais523> road signs in the UK are retroreflective, they reflect in a directed way along the path the light came from
00:10:45 <fizzie> https://www.nist.gov/programs-projects/hyperspectral-image-projector-hip well maybe it's not quite ready for consumer use yet
00:10:52 <ais523> which means that they're visible in low illumination as long as you're standing next to the source of illumination
00:10:55 <b_jonas> they're always dirty by the way, because it's not worth for anyone to clean it, but part of the reason for the fluorescent paint is that it makes the dirty license plate more visible in infrared photos
00:11:13 <b_jonas> or something like this, I probably got some important detail wrong
00:12:13 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, there are people who are colorblind in only one eye? how is that possible? I thought all forms of human colorblindness were strongly linked to genetics
00:12:34 <ais523> b_jonas: some people have two different sets of DNA, that might be the cause
00:13:08 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, but that's very rare in humans that survive infanthood I think
00:13:10 <ais523> you're only meant to inherit half a set of DNA from each parent, but sometimes that mechanism goes wrong
00:13:24 <b_jonas> oh, that thing, not chimerism
00:13:56 <b_jonas> those can be quite bad, polyploidy stuff, but I don't see how they'd cause different colorblindness in eyes
00:14:29 <b_jonas> ais523: they're not fluorescent? hmm
00:14:36 <ais523> chimerism isn't that rare, it seems, at least on small scales
00:14:42 <b_jonas> ais523: road signs are retroreflective, that's true
00:15:06 <b_jonas> but roads signs isn't the same as car registration plates: car reg plates are in a place that gets dirty much more easily
00:15:08 <ais523> apparently it's quite common for fraternal twins to belong to multiple blood groups simultaneously as a consequence of small-scale chimerism
00:15:20 <b_jonas> fizzie: nice
00:15:46 <b_jonas> "maybe it's not quite ready for consumer use yet" => I don't think that will become practical any time soon;
00:16:27 <ais523> there were printers on sale to consumers that used six colors + black rather than three colors + black
00:16:35 <ais523> I'm not sure if anyone bought them, but I saw them advertised
00:16:50 <ais523> although of course, that won't get you a full spectral range (especially as it would be hard to make appropriate ink)
00:17:17 <b_jonas> however, I would be happy if there were color consumer cameras with more than three color channels. technically there are a few with four channels, but they're rare and just optimized to give a better RGB picture output, though you can probably get a raw image from them; plus there are cameras that have a built-in motor to insert or remove the infrared filter
00:17:32 <b_jonas> ais523: blood groups sure, but blood groups is different
00:17:58 <ais523> full chimerism seems to be rare, or at least rarely confirmed; however, it also typically has no visible symptoms, or symptoms easily mistaken for other things
00:18:13 <ais523> so it's likely to usually go undetected
00:18:15 <b_jonas> ais523: printers => interesting, though I'd be specifically more interested in cameras rather than displays or printers for this
00:18:24 <b_jonas> ais523: I see
00:18:34 <fizzie> ais523: I think printers sold specifically as "photo printers" still use multiple inks.
00:18:41 <b_jonas> well I'm not a doctor or a biologist, so anything I say about those is often wrong
00:19:06 <b_jonas> especialyl anything I say two hours after I should have gone to bed, curse you #esoteric
00:19:27 <int-e> b_jonas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_vapor_process is something old that fits into this niche
00:19:34 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, I think some use magenta, light magenta, blue, light blue, yellow, black
00:19:37 <int-e> (for a completely different reason)
00:19:54 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76464&oldid=76345 * LegionMammal978 * (-21) not a language
00:20:06 <b_jonas> int-e: oh yeah, I think that came up in the last two #esoteric discussion about this
00:20:14 <esowiki> [[Turinf machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76465&oldid=76308 * LegionMammal978 * (+11) it's not a programming language if it doesn't have syntax
00:20:21 <fizzie> Epson's page managed to crash all of Chrome somehow (shouldn't happen, should file a bug), but I can still see the blurb about "enhanced level of quality produced by its 6-colour inks".
00:21:06 <int-e> (I learned about this from a making of video of The Birds)
00:21:12 <b_jonas> fizzie: well sure, they must say "enchanced level of quality" or something vague and hard to disprove if they want to sell you a printer for which it's harder to find third-party ink cartridges
00:21:50 <b_jonas> though the other trick of putting electronics with a usage counter in ink cartridges such that the printer refuses to use refilled cartridge is much more effective and dirtier
00:21:52 <fizzie> I think Epson's pretty good with inks, actually. Maybe not the photo ones, but in general I got the impression they haven't been doing as much copyright misuse and so on to control the ink markets.
00:22:24 <b_jonas> I wonder if anyone optimized a break for the electronic ink cartridge thing yet, and if that's legal
00:22:24 <fizzie> (I may not be remembering the right manufacturer though.)
00:22:34 <fizzie> (Also, I wonder if there's some way of figuring out which Chrome process would be good to kill without being able to bring up the Chrome task manager.)
00:22:52 <int-e> hmm, what's a "right manufacturer" :-)
00:23:14 <fizzie> A manufacturer of rights.
00:23:36 <int-e> Well, that goes without saying.
00:25:01 <fizzie> Sony made a couple of those RGBE color filter cameras (red, green, blue, "emerald") with four primaries.
00:25:24 <fizzie> "Emerald" is a more marketing-friendly way of saying "cyan".
00:25:32 <ais523> emerald doesn't look anything like cyan though
00:26:12 <fizzie> Yeah, well.
00:26:28 <fizzie> https://www.dpreview.com/articles/1471104084/sonyrgbeccd
00:26:33 <b_jonas> just imagine if Canon or Nikon made cameras that check the signature of the lens and deliberately dumb themselves down on any lens whose manufacturer doesn't pay a license fee for that. I think the first one of the two that does instantly lose their market share to the other
00:27:00 <shachaf> ais523: The Bornat book's approach looks pretty complicated.
00:27:24 <ais523> it covers lots of different approaches
00:27:53 <b_jonas> whereas some printer manufacturer can do this for cartridges, and Intel can have a cpu library that deliberately pessimizes operations on AMD x86 cpus such that if you just patch all those checks out you instantly get much better performance
00:28:30 <shachaf> How much should I know about parsers?
00:28:53 <ais523> that rather depends on how much you need to know about parsers
00:29:04 <b_jonas> despite that their architecture reference manual spends a lot of words explaining how you should detect cpu features, and that you should never try to guess them from the cpu type or brand, which btw has very good reasons, and yet their own libraries don't folow that
00:29:06 <ais523> if you're writing a parser generator, for example, you would need to know quite a lot
00:29:21 <shachaf> Say I know what LL(k) is. Should I know about LR, LALR, GLR, and all those things?
00:29:42 <fizzie> The BLARG parser gives up as soon as it encounters any error.
00:29:44 <ais523> I think it's useful to know what LALR(1) is capable of doing, because that's what most parser generators use in practice
00:30:01 <shachaf> Should I know about packrat, earley, cyk, and so on?
00:30:02 <ais523> knowing the fine distinctions between the various categories isn't much use unless you're writing a parser generator, though
00:30:05 <b_jonas> ais523: those four colors aren't really colors, they're filters where the full spectrum matters, so you can't really name them with human color names like red green blue accurately anyway
00:30:14 <b_jonas> just like the cone cells
00:30:24 <ais523> yes, you'd need to give a graph of the frequency response
00:30:29 <b_jonas> they're dual spectrums
00:30:41 <shachaf> Presumably I should just know all of these things and be a turbo-expert.
00:30:52 <ais523> "red", "green", "blue" are good names for cone cells because different people have slightly different cone cells anyway, so vague names are good for lumping them into vague groups
00:30:55 <b_jonas> dual in the linear algebra sense of course
00:31:42 <b_jonas> ais523: blue sure, but I don't think red and green are.
00:31:50 <b_jonas> for camera filters red green blue is better
00:32:55 <ais523> GLR is cheating because it's fully general but nondeterministic, so the performance gets bad in situations where the generality is needed
00:33:50 <b_jonas> shachaf: you should probably know about LR(k), at least at the level of detail of how it differs from LL(k), not necessarily to how it differs from LALR(k)
00:34:23 <ais523> LALR(k) is a mild optimisation of LR(k) that sometimes introduces ambiguities but normally only in really contrived situations
00:34:28 <b_jonas> mostly because there are grammars that are LALR(1) but not LL(1) that you will meet often
00:34:56 <ais523> so LR(k) is more powerful than LALR(k) but not in any way that's likely to matter in practice
00:35:20 <b_jonas> whereas LR(k) versus LL(k) does matter
00:35:26 <b_jonas> even in practice
00:35:34 <ais523> yes, LR(1) is much more powerful than LL(1)
00:35:43 <b_jonas> (and so does LL(k) versus regular grammar obviously)(
00:36:22 <ais523> I think LR(k) is intermediate in power between a deterministic push-down automaton and a nondeterministic push-down automaton, isn't it?
00:36:28 <ais523> not 100% sure on that
00:37:03 <shachaf> Hmm, I don't have a good idea of what extra power you get from a nondeterministic push-down automaton, either.
00:37:14 <esowiki> [[Turinf machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76466&oldid=76465 * Hakerh400 * (+580) Added formal syntax
00:37:27 <shachaf> I guess quite a lot?
00:37:46 <b_jonas> ais523: er... not technically, because you could cheat to convert an LR(k) parser to a push-down automaton by rolling a window of k symbols that the LR parser peeke
00:37:55 <b_jonas> peeks into the state of the automaton
00:38:17 <ais523> that converts LR(k) to LR(1)
00:38:18 <b_jonas> in which case you get a deterministic push-down automaton
00:38:19 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76467&oldid=76464 * Hakerh400 * (+21) Undo revision 76464 by [[Special:Contributions/LegionMammal978|LegionMammal978]] ([[User talk:LegionMammal978|talk]]) - Added formal syntax so it is a language now
00:38:30 <ais523> but ah right, LR(1) does compile into a deterministic PDA
00:38:34 <b_jonas> ais523: does it? hmm
00:38:47 <ais523> isn't that basically what yacc/ayacc do?
00:38:54 <b_jonas> maybe you also need to roll the top m elements of the stack into the state where m is the longest rule you have
00:39:00 <b_jonas> the legnth of the longest rule you have
00:39:12 <ais523> your basic operations are shift (push), reduce (pop+branch), and reading input
00:39:46 <ais523> b_jonas: you can't do that, because a reduce could cause deeper elements to become shallower
00:39:55 <ais523> although you could probably simulate it by popping all the elements and then pushing them back
00:40:00 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but the control is also important: LR can look at multiple elements on top of its stack
00:40:07 <esowiki> [[Turinf machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76468&oldid=76466 * Hakerh400 * (+14)
00:40:16 <b_jonas> hmm
00:40:18 <b_jonas> I dunno then
00:40:21 <ais523> b_jonas: no it can't, the only time it reads the stack is to read its top element
00:40:29 <b_jonas> oh yeah, it has a state for that
00:40:32 <b_jonas> sorry I'm stupid and tired
00:40:39 <b_jonas> I should just go to bed, good nigth
00:40:42 <ais523> night
00:40:50 <b_jonas> I stayed up too long last night reading about cryptography
00:41:09 <b_jonas> and https://noiseprotocol.org/ btw which I recommend looking at
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01:32:59 <fizzie> Speaking of trying to use copyright to control what people do with technology, ran across Apple's "our hard work / by these words guarded / please don't steal" copyright haiku the other day.
01:34:23 <shachaf> Other than having a confusing name, the Boyer-Moore majority algorithm is pretty neat and does something that doesn't seem possible at first.
01:34:51 <shachaf> (Find the majority element in a stream using constant space.)
01:36:21 <fizzie> Clever.
01:36:37 <ais523> where "majority" strictly means "more than half"
01:36:51 <ais523> otherwise it's unsolvable
01:37:40 <shachaf> Right.
01:37:48 <shachaf> But you can do "strictly more than 1/k" for any k.
01:38:32 <ais523> oh, in O(k) space
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01:42:21 <esowiki> [[User:RocketRace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76469&oldid=72180 * RocketRace * (+159) AAA
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05:11:40 <zzo38> I looked at Boyer-Moore in Wikipedia, and it requires to rewind the data to read it again a second time, which depending on how the data is read, may require more space. (But, if you know how many different kind of items there are, it is possible to make a list indexed by that too, I suppose)
05:12:48 <shachaf> It requires a rewind if you're not sure there's a majority element.
05:13:40 <zzo38> O, yes. If you don't care what the answer is if there is no majority (such as because you know there is a majority), then you do not need to rewind it.
05:14:48 <zzo38> (I forgot that, but, yes you are correct)
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05:43:48 <esowiki> [[Introduction to esolang design]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76470&oldid=44838 * TwilightSparkle * (+359) /* Methods of Design */
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06:04:11 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76471&oldid=76327 * Bangyen * (+140) /* Implementations */
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10:24:45 <wib_jonas> I didn't know about this Boyer-Moore thing, interesting
10:28:53 <fizzie> Surprised Wikipedia doesn't have a "List of algorithms with ambiguous names" page.
10:32:56 <int-e> Huh, do they do that? Seems kind of meta...
10:33:17 <wib_jonas> fizzie: hehe
10:33:34 <wib_jonas> I wonder how many Euler's algorithms and Gauss's algorithms are
10:34:34 <int-e> what I would expect is a disambiguation page for "boyer-moore" algorithm, or at least cross links between the two (or maybe there are others?)
11:28:55 <shachaf> There is such a page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyer%E2%80%93Moore
11:30:24 <myname> i was told it is pretty common in bioinformatics to just ask a friend you didn't published with yet to be a co-author to make names less ambiguous
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13:46:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Turinf machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76472 * LegionMammal978 * (+1249) Turinf machines are Turing-complete
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14:25:12 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hanzlu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76473&oldid=76430 * LegionMammal978 * (+58)
14:25:19 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hanzlu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76474&oldid=76473 * LegionMammal978 * (+105)
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14:38:06 <int-e> shachaf: so... what's missing then are the links back to the disambiguation page. Do I care enough... probably not.
14:41:03 <int-e> shachaf: But thanks for pointing it out :)
14:42:32 <wib_jonas> myname: hmm, does that conflict with http://phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=562 the convention where they just include everyone in the lab as an author?
15:11:07 <fizzie> As a person who was the non-first author in 4 out of the 9 publications making up their thesis, I'm happy about these conventions.
15:11:24 <esowiki> [[Turinf machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76475&oldid=76468 * Hakerh400 * (+0) Reword the specification to make it more clear; add missing halting states syntax
15:11:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Turinf machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76476&oldid=76472 * Hakerh400 * (+1147)
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15:35:50 <esowiki> [[UM8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76477&oldid=75350 * LegionMammal978 * (+11) /* Implementations */ fixed link
15:38:48 <esowiki> [[UM8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76478&oldid=76477 * LegionMammal978 * (+1) https
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15:46:49 <esowiki> [[7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76479&oldid=75563 * LegionMammal978 * (+129) /* Example programs */ added truth machine
15:47:30 <esowiki> [[7]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76480&oldid=76479 * LegionMammal978 * (+27) /* Truth machine */
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15:56:48 <esowiki> [[ARCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76481&oldid=25344 * LegionMammal978 * (+127) /* External resources */ fixed link
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21:05:24 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76482&oldid=76471 * Bangyen * (+26) /* Implementations */
21:06:10 <esowiki> [[Number Seventy-Four]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76483&oldid=75463 * Bangyen * (+101)
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00:46:07 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76484&oldid=75909 * RocketRace * (+621) Babalang
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01:50:30 <esowiki> [[5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76485 * RocketRace * (+3750) 5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel
01:51:06 <esowiki> [[5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76486&oldid=76485 * RocketRace * (+2) RedLink
01:51:56 <esowiki> [[5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76487&oldid=76486 * RocketRace * (+37) badlink
01:53:17 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76488&oldid=76467 * RocketRace * (+47) 5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel
01:54:39 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76489&oldid=76488 * RocketRace * (+41) Babalang description
01:55:16 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76490&oldid=76489 * RocketRace * (+14) Padlock
01:57:25 <esowiki> [[User:RocketRace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76491&oldid=76469 * RocketRace * (+59) 5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel
01:57:41 <esowiki> [[User:RocketRace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76492&oldid=76491 * RocketRace * (+11) a
02:12:51 <esowiki> [[5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76493&oldid=76487 * RocketRace * (-1) s
02:16:12 <esowiki> [[5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76494&oldid=76493 * RocketRace * (+0) this
02:32:52 <esowiki> [[5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76495&oldid=76494 * RocketRace * (+378) Examples!
02:33:02 <esowiki> [[5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76496&oldid=76495 * RocketRace * (+3) /* Undefined behavior time, wonder which prints first */
02:36:38 <esowiki> [[5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76497&oldid=76496 * RocketRace * (+27) /* Cat, but faster since the loop doesn't waste one step */
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02:57:54 <esowiki> [[5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76498&oldid=76497 * RocketRace * (+503) Notes
03:00:28 <esowiki> [[5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76499&oldid=76498 * RocketRace * (+1) /* Notes */
03:00:37 <esowiki> [[5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76500&oldid=76499 * RocketRace * (+0) /* Notes */
03:03:20 <esowiki> [[5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76501&oldid=76500 * RocketRace * (-79) /* Cat, but faster */
03:06:28 <zzo38> World Trap {?} World Enchantment - Aura ;; Enchant permanent ;; When ~ dies, exile enchanted permanent and add its mana cost into your mana pool.
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03:16:01 <zzo38> What should be mana cost? (And, should totem armor be added?)
03:20:32 <esowiki> [[5D 5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel With Multiverse Time Travel]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76502 * SoundOfScripting * (+5239) i'm not sorry
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08:00:36 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76504&oldid=76503 * Dion * (+269)
08:01:06 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76505&oldid=76504 * Dion * (+0)
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17:49:19 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks/2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76506 * Osmarks * (+198) Created page with "My esolangs: * [[Turi]], a Turing-complete and nightmarish to implement language * [[Embedded HQ9+]], an esolang for use in embedded system design. * possibly others I forgot..."
17:49:37 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76507&oldid=76106 * Osmarks * (+54)
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18:45:58 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76508&oldid=76448 * Palaiologos * (-9) deadname removal
18:47:48 <kspalaiologos> It also happened so I was elected the new owner of Esolang discord server
18:48:16 <kspalaiologos> we've got some very cool and very smart people like Daniel Cristofani here
18:48:28 <kspalaiologos> (and well, quite legendary)
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18:50:13 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: we also have some very cool and smart and legendary people on #esoteric
18:50:27 <kspalaiologos> I'm well aware of that
18:50:48 <kspalaiologos> in fact, there are a lot of cool and smart people here
18:51:00 <kspalaiologos> I always liked both you and ais lol
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19:00:39 <myname> i never knew there is a discord server
19:01:38 <b_jonas> ``` : myname:; \? discord
19:01:41 <HackEso> The unofficial Esolangs and code golf Discord server: https://discord.gg/3UXSK5p
19:01:49 <b_jonas> yes, I know we have an @ command
19:01:54 <b_jonas> `@ myname ? discord
19:01:55 <HackEso> myname: The unofficial Esolangs and code golf Discord server: https://discord.gg/3UXSK5p
19:02:32 <b_jonas> also https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal
19:03:30 <zzo38> There is a Discord in case you want to, but IRC is better
19:08:59 <b_jonas> maybe there are also hidden forums that have to be accessed in some esoteric way
19:09:32 <b_jonas> like, I dunno, running on a webserver written in befunge
19:10:05 <zzo38> If so, I do not know of any.
19:10:25 <b_jonas> maybe kspalaiologos knows
19:10:56 <esowiki> [[User:SoundOfScripting]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76509&oldid=76178 * SoundOfScripting * (+77) Added 5D 5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel With Multiverse Time Travel
19:11:32 <kspalaiologos> esolang communities I know that are currently closed are, well, closed.
19:11:51 <kspalaiologos> although they exist, there's no point in trying to get in because either there are no valuable people there or they're simply inactive.
19:12:11 <kspalaiologos> > There is a Discord in case you want to, but IRC is better - IRC will always be better but it doesn't mean one can't build a good Discord community.
19:12:13 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:20: error: parse error on input ‘in’
19:12:31 <zzo38> Yes, it is true, you can build a good community, regardless
19:12:37 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76510&oldid=76490 * SoundOfScripting * (+78) Added 5D 5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel With Multiverse Time Travel
19:15:11 <esowiki> [[5D 5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel With Multiverse Time Travel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76511&oldid=76502 * SoundOfScripting * (-7) Changed category
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20:08:19 <zzo38> Maybe they should also set up a NNTP server at esolangs.org
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20:34:39 <zzo38> How to compute the outline path of a Bezier path drawn by a arbitrary pen shape?
20:36:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: that is actually hard
20:37:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: maybe look at Inkscape for what it does, but I think it only does a reasonable approximation
20:38:08 <zzo38> Yes, maybe, although I would want a implementation of such a algorithm in PostScript
20:44:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think you first split your pen shape to convex polygons, and you take the time derivative of your path and intersect it with velocity lines through the origin parallel to the sides of the convex part of the pen to see which vertex of the polygon is in the outline on which segments, and for those segments you get the part of the outline by translating the bezier curve by the position of the
20:44:32 <b_jonas> vertex, or something like that
20:45:06 <zzo38> Yes, I think METAFONT uses convex polygons as pen shapes, and I did think of using the derivative of the path
20:46:03 <b_jonas> no, Metafont offers two choices: either a convex polygon as the pen or an ellipse as the pen
20:46:16 <b_jonas> also, wait, this has a fancy name
20:46:22 <b_jonas> I think it's Minkowsky sum
20:47:35 <zzo38> You can specify an ellipse, but it will be automatically converted into a convex polygon.
20:47:41 <b_jonas> ah
20:48:38 <b_jonas> that is btw probably because in general the Minkowski sum of a bezier curve path with an ellipse isn't a bezier curve, because an ellipse isn't precisely a bezier curve, though the approximation that we use is so close that it works well enough
20:54:43 <zzo38> The reason I would want this is not for fonts; for fonts I can just use METAFONT instead. Rather, it is in case you want to draw stuff other than fonts using the similar methods.
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21:33:41 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76512&oldid=76449 * BluebsTopCAt * (+228) /* Introductions */
21:38:37 <esowiki> [[Penisscript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76513 * BluebsTopCAt * (+1926) created penisscript
21:38:50 <esowiki> [[Penisscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76514&oldid=76513 * BluebsTopCAt * (-1)
21:38:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure
21:41:01 <esowiki> [[Penisscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76515&oldid=76514 * BluebsTopCAt * (+126)
21:44:09 <esowiki> [[Penisscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76516&oldid=76515 * BluebsTopCAt * (+11) /* Hello, world! program */
21:44:30 <esowiki> [[Penisscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76517&oldid=76516 * BluebsTopCAt * (+6)
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21:46:28 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Someskid * New user account
21:54:44 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76518&oldid=76512 * Someskid * (+155)
21:54:55 <esowiki> [[Penisscript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76519&oldid=76517 * Someskid * (+0) Minor Grammatical Fixes
21:55:23 <esowiki> [[Penisscript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76520&oldid=76519 * Someskid * (+1) Missing Period
21:56:27 <esowiki> [[Penisscript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76521&oldid=76520 * Someskid * (+0) Fix Title Capitalization
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23:27:30 <b_jonas> I will not buy this fungot, it is scratched
23:27:30 <fungot> b_jonas: you could always fight about the css have any results so far... i've already written
23:28:16 <fizzie> fungot: Branching out to webdev, are you?
23:28:16 <fungot> fizzie: fnord/ view/ 782) describes some of the places. two allow shadowing, one is sicp... what is your major malfunction? bah
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00:04:30 <zzo38> What are you thinking of my "World Trap" card?
00:05:16 <shachaf> Man. How come writing programs with UIs is a completely ridiculous endeavor these days?
00:05:45 <shachaf> It's so bad. There are five platforms you need to target and they're all trying to maximize lock-in by having incompatible APIs for everything.
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00:06:08 <shachaf> They don't even want you to use the same language, because apparently we're in the 1950s and high-level cross-platform languages haven't been invented yet.
00:08:46 <zzo38> Depending what you are writing, you could use some VM code, such as Z-machine code or Glulx code; that is why Infocom invented the Z-machine code, for their Zork game.
00:09:09 <zzo38> You might also be able to use SDL for some stuff, maybe.
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00:38:10 <fizzie> shachaf: I was doing some "classic iOS" ObjC things recently, and it was kind of interesting, that whole NeXTSTEPpy object feel and the Interface Builder and stuff.
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00:38:27 <fizzie> Although AIUI that's kind of obsolete with Swift and SwiftUI and declarative UIs, which seems like a bit of a shame.
00:38:32 <shachaf> fizzie: that's called "classic" now? Is Objective-C deprecated?
00:38:55 <shachaf> I don't get it. I want to write my program in one language, which I get to choose, and I want to compile it to all the different target platforms.
00:39:24 <shachaf> I don't want a Swift-only or Java-only or .NET-only or JavaScript-only or C++-only library as the basic thing the platform provides. That just seems absurd.
00:39:26 <fizzie> I don't know about "deprecated", but I think it's not definitely "the new thing".
00:40:15 <fizzie> Swift is to Objective-C what Kotlin is to Java, or that's the impression I got.
00:40:39 <shachaf> Swift sounds like an OKish language to me.
00:41:05 <shachaf> But I'm not going to write my program, which needs to be efficient and cross-platform, in Swift. That's just silly.
00:41:09 <fizzie> "Even better, you don’t even need to type semi-colons."
00:41:27 <fizzie> I'm not sure I'd highlight that as a big selling point on the very top of https://developer.apple.com/swift/ though.
00:41:43 <fizzie> I don't think the semi-colons were the problem.
00:41:52 <zzo38> Objective-C is a superset of C, I think, so you can write everything else except the UI in C, I think.
00:42:47 <shachaf> I don't really want to write my UI six times.
00:43:05 <fizzie> No, see, you get six software development teams who each write the UI once.
00:43:15 <shachaf> Six: Mac OS, iOS, Android, Windows, Linux, web.
00:43:36 <fizzie> Mac OS and iOS are converging a little, aren't they?
00:44:18 <fizzie> Sort of outside my field of view, but that's what it felt like. Or at least they were already much closer than Android and [anything else].
00:44:44 <shachaf> Well, maybe. Writing a different UI for desktop and mobile actually does make some sense.
00:45:30 <fizzie> Well, you know... "Qt is the fastest and smartest way to produce industry-leading software that users love."
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00:45:39 <shachaf> I don't really want to use C++, though.
00:45:52 <shachaf> Qt might be one fo the most reasonable answers? But that doesn't seem great.
00:46:13 <fizzie> I think I remember Nokia's Linux phones were kind of heavily banking on Qt.
00:48:09 <zzo38> What you will do, it might depend what program you are writing, too.
00:48:47 <shachaf> I would write my own UI code, except for a few things that make it tricky.
00:49:04 <shachaf> The main things are: Rendering text, and handling text in general; accessibility.
00:49:07 <zzo38> What program are you trying to write?
00:49:53 <shachaf> Nothing at the moment. I gave up on some programs I was trying to write.
00:50:03 <shachaf> Even the idea of making a simple GUI program is kind of daunting, though.
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00:50:42 <zzo38> I generally write command line programs instead, since many thing we don't need the GUI.
00:53:16 <zzo38> But sometimes you might be able to use SDL or something like that
00:53:31 <zzo38> (Although, SDL doesn't handle text)
00:54:04 <zzo38> But, even with rendering/handling text, it still depend what stuff you need to do, since different applications require different text handling.
00:55:06 <shachaf> All applications require the same text handling: They must render "Professional Octopus of the World" in 12pt Arial.
00:57:22 <zzo38> No, that isn't quite correct. Even if needs to render arbitrary text, it might not need 12pt Arial, and even if it is, it can depend on if the render is on the screen or printer, too.
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01:34:59 <zzo38> There is then consideration of kerning, ligatures, line breaking, etc, depending on what is needed.
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02:15:47 <zzo38> Also, how much is twelve points depend on the application too. Some programs use 1/72 inch, and some use 1/72.27 inch. The PostScript documentation specifically says that 1/72 inch isn't a point, but it is approximately equal to one point (it doesn't give an exact number of how much is one point).
02:16:47 <zzo38> So, I will suggest to call 1/72.27 inch a "small point" and 1/72 inch a "big point", I suppose.
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02:17:28 <shachaf> A smoint and a boint, for short.
02:18:33 <zzo38> O, OK.
02:22:21 <shachaf> Do you know how solvers for forall-exists kinds of problems work?
02:22:53 <shachaf> I mean Σ_2 or Π_2, I guess.
02:23:04 <shachaf> How much harder is it than SAT?
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03:57:19 <Antebrationist> Are there any programming KOTH competitions running currently?
03:59:53 <imode> bobbeh
04:00:26 <Antebrationist> Programming?
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04:12:14 <zzo38> I don't know what is "KOTH competitions"
04:13:03 <Antebrationist> Competitions where user-submitted programs battle it out, to be King of the Hill (KotH)
04:13:19 <zzo38> O, OK
04:19:40 <Antebrationist> There was one on here a while back, that orbitaldecay ran, as a brainfuck competition, but no more have occurred since.
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04:24:56 <zzo38> Yes, there was one before, but I don't know if it is at this time, now.
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04:30:11 <zzo38> Did you want any other programming languages with it?
04:30:40 <Antebrationist> Any programming language will do, but I'd prefer esolangs.
04:30:59 <Antebrationist> Oh, zzo, I finished proving Eldritch TC a while ago.
04:32:14 <zzo38> OK. You should add a esolang wiki article about Eldritch then.
04:32:34 <Antebrationist> I don't think that it is sufficiently notable to be on the wiki.
04:35:10 <zzo38> OK, although I think esolang wiki doesn't require so much notability as Wikipedia does.
04:35:59 <Antebrationist> Eldritch bears many similarities to existing languages, such as Befunge, though I didn't even know about them before you mentioned it. For this reason I won't post it.
04:36:33 <zzo38> OK, if you do not want to post, is OK
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07:05:21 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, writing UI programs sucks these days. other people have noticed that too.
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11:52:07 <int-e> fungot: do your bridges work on the first try?
11:52:07 <fungot> int-e: so far no mime types" http://srfi.schemers.org/ srfi-27/ is that once the basics are working, and stuff like that
11:56:12 <fizzie> application/x-broken-bridge
11:57:12 <fizzie> Why do I feel like I saw a funny MIME type just recently? No recollection what it could've been.
11:58:18 <fizzie> Hmm, maybe it was the 'application/vnd.PHE-COVID19.v1+json' content type used by the UK COVID-19 data API, but that's not especially funny, just maybe oddly specific.
12:06:25 <int-e> fizzie: I'm playing https://www.gog.com/game/bridge_constructor
12:07:23 <int-e> And I'm finding that the addition of sloped bridges made this much more fun.
12:07:45 <fizzie> I played a little bit of Poly Bridge (1) recently, which that looks quite similar to.
12:09:06 <int-e> Yeah there are a number of clones of the original (I think) Bridge Builder
12:10:25 <fizzie> Looks like there's also a Bridge Constructor / Portal crossover game.
12:10:43 <int-e> I don't know how they compare, the Bridge Constructor franchise is the only one I've played.
12:14:39 <int-e> I've tried that one too (gog has a promo bundle with three variants including that one, https://www.gog.com/promo/20200806_launch_promo_bridge_constructor)
12:16:21 <int-e> They have portals, they have accelerating goo and bouncing goo, they have turrets, they have switches and companion cubes... they may be overdoing it a little, but it's still enjoyable. I kind of miss the budget constraints actually.
12:16:42 <fizzie> I'm kind of unhappy that I only have the Android version of Poly Bridge (had some expiring Play Store credits to lose, at it was on sale for something like £0.99), and the small-touchscreen user experience really isn't quite the same as having a monitor and a mouse.
12:16:44 <int-e> (They still display a cost, so you /can/ minimize that.)
12:17:30 <fizzie> It runs okay on Chrome OS's Android app support, and you can click on buttons with the mouse, but none of the actual bridge parts deign to be interacted with the mouse.
12:17:30 <int-e> The portals mean that you have cars going vertically, and also can be used to flip car directions... some levels have you cross the car's own path.
12:17:41 <int-e> So, yeah, it's cute.
12:17:42 <fizzie> (Presumably the code is specific to "touch" events on those.)
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12:21:54 <int-e> But the sloping really got me... instead of connecting start and end in a straight line you get to do things like http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/bbslope.jpg (partial bridge, I removed the supporting structures, from a (the?) christmas themed level set)
12:32:36 <int-e> I wonder how many civil engineers this game has ruined. "I can make this bridge at half the cost, you just have to be careful when driving on it."
12:38:55 <Arcorann> I still remember Armadillo Run, has anyone else heard of that?
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12:42:50 <int-e> hmm, not I
12:47:12 <fizzie> No. I do remember the TIM games though.
12:49:35 <int-e> hit the fish bowl with the rocket so that the cat chases the mouse to the switch...
12:49:49 <int-e> TIM was great.
12:50:53 <fizzie> Much like bridge-building, the best parts (for me, anyway) are the ridiculous almost certainly unintended "somehow, it all worked" solutions.
12:51:12 <fizzie> https://classicreload.com/sites/default/files/styles/game_image/public/dosx-the-incredible-machine-screenshot.png
12:52:41 <fizzie> It's funny how the magnifying glass can magically focus light exactly on the flammable object, no matter what the orientation, as long as it's roughly the right way round.
12:52:56 <fizzie> Must have some control circuitry and optics in it.
12:55:32 <int-e> Nah, it's just Maxwell's demon directing the photons, violating the laws of thermodynamics.
12:58:15 * int-e is trying to figure out which elements are *missing* from the title screen. Amazingly there is quite a few... hamster wheel, generator, motor, dynamite, candle, rocket, tennis ball, basket ball, all the steel parts... I'm almost certain I'm forgetting something, there were just too many things.
12:59:01 <fizzie> The bellows.
13:03:09 <fizzie> Oh, and a bouncy trampoline.
13:03:37 <int-e> Oh the the trampoline...
13:03:41 <fizzie> https://the-incredible-machine.fandom.com/wiki/The_Incredible_Machine_(game)/Parts of course someone's made a list
13:04:01 <int-e> Those things were annoying, so much fiddling to find a good placement.
13:04:43 <int-e> I mean sure, that's basically the whole game, but trampolines actually stood out in that regard.
13:06:56 <int-e> Oh the monkey, how did I forget the monkey.
13:07:24 <int-e> It's easily the most adorable thing in the whole game.
13:08:34 <int-e> And I didn't know about the special parts.
13:13:54 <int-e> One cute idea in the medieval bridge constructor is that it makes non-working bridges a feature: you lure enemies onto a bridge and let them plummet to their death. It has to collapse at the right moment for this to work.
13:16:15 <rain1> https://www.mdpi.com/2073-8994/7/3/1289/htm
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14:57:29 <esowiki> [[MailBox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76522&oldid=57701 * LegionMammal978 * (+777) added interpreter link and TC proof
15:23:53 <fizzie> I didn't know about the special parts either.
15:27:08 <int-e> look at this nice load distribution... https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/load.jpg (bridgebuilder, possible spoiler for one wood only train bridge)
15:27:15 <int-e> s/builder/constructor/
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16:46:29 <rain1> did you like this link about computing with tangles?
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17:05:10 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Insane Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76523&oldid=68139 * LegionMammal978 * (+239) /* Invalid submissions */
17:22:29 <fizzie> Hmm, I didn't remember TIM being this clunky when it comes to the interface though. Wonder if that's just DOSBox acting up.
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18:30:45 <int-e> I remember 320x200 being an acceptable graphics resolution ;)
18:31:29 <zzo38> Depending how many things you need to display, maybe it is.
18:32:07 <int-e> (the idea ist that the resolution and smoothness of, say, mouse movements, are related)
18:38:22 <zzo38> Yes, that it is
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18:57:36 <esowiki> [[Brotlipython]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76524 * Osmarks * (+1424) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Brotlipython |paradigms=multiparadigm |author=[[User:Osmarks|osmarks]] |year=[[:Category:2020|2020]] |class=:Category:Turing complete|Turing complet..."
19:00:50 <esowiki> [[User:Osmarks/2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76525&oldid=76506 * Osmarks * (+68)
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19:10:09 <b_jonas> I just visited a small museum in Budapest in which the best part is a small and cheap but well-composed representattive selection of digital computers, from the first many-cupboard vacuum tube machines up to recent enough stuff that they won't have a time gap when they later try to expand it. The 80s and 90s home microcomputer era in the middle is the most interesting, because it has a mixture of models
19:10:15 <b_jonas> imported from West Europe and ones produced locally.
19:11:51 <b_jonas> There were a few pocket calculators, only Eastern ones, but of course the best ones of those are clones of calculators from the West. The two programmables on display are http://www.rskey.org/CMS/index.php/7?manufacturer=H%EDrad%E1stechnika&model=PTK-1023 and http://www.rskey.org/CMS/index.php/7?manufacturer=H%EDrad%E1stechnika&model=PTK-1072
19:12:53 <b_jonas> While the collection is good, the labels are terrible. With the digital computers, where I had some foreknowledge to be able to recognize stuff, but in general, there are barely any labels from which you could find out anything about objects you're not familiar with.
19:13:30 <b_jonas> for reference: https://www.mmkm.hu/hu/kiallitasaink/a-muszaki-tanulmanytar-allando-kiallitasa Magyar Muszaki es Kozlekedesi Muzeum, a Muszaki Tanulmanytar allando kiallitasa, 11. kerulet Lagymanyosi hid labanal.
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20:14:06 <zzo38> Maybe my new format for a printing document file (like PDF and DjVu) can be called "PDQ", since it is a alternative of PDF. One of the parts of this project would be to write a complete specification, another part would be to write a Ghostscript driver to target it, and the other part is to write the viewer software.
20:19:14 <zzo38> The full specification should be available in a plain text format, so that you do not require an implementation to already exist in order to read it.
20:38:41 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Suspicious Garbage * New user account
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20:46:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76526&oldid=76518 * Suspicious Garbage * (+242) /* Introductions */
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00:24:00 <hhhhh> hello. does anyone here know much about golfscript? im slightly confused about how arrays work. for example, how would i take an array on the stack and increment its 3rd value by 1?
00:24:24 <ais523> I know a bit about GolfScript but not much
00:24:33 <ais523> it has many fewer builtins than you'd expect from a golfing language
00:25:21 <ais523> but in most cases, arrays in golfing languages are treated as a single object, rather than being modified
00:25:38 <ais523> so the operation you want, you should think of as "replace this array with a copy in which the third value is incremented"
00:25:59 <hhhhh> i see. how would one go about doing so?
00:26:45 <zzo38> GolfScript is one of the older ones though I think; there are many newer ones with more commands
00:27:07 <hhhhh> for an array of length 3, [0,1,2 1+]? that seems really ungolflike.
00:27:07 <ais523> I'm trying to find a good builtin to use
00:27:23 <hhhhh> [0,1,2,1+] oops
00:27:38 <hhhhh> zzo38 any good examples?
00:28:25 <ais523> actually this is a hard operation in most golfing languages I think
00:28:35 <hhhhh> strange.
00:29:02 <hhhhh> i was thinking of doing so because im trying to find a nice esolang to implement an esolang interpreter in#
00:29:05 <zzo38> hhhhh: Well, there are many, actually; there may be a list or category on esolang wiki (and if not, maybe there should be? Discuss and figure it out, I suppose)
00:29:28 <ais523> in Jelly it would be something like 1+$3¦
00:29:31 <hhhhh> and i need to store a direction, a PC and the program itself, i was thinking of doing that in an array
00:29:38 <hhhhh> jelly seems complicated, ive looked at it
00:29:57 <ais523> yep, https://tio.run/##y0rNyan8/99QW8X40LL///9HG@oY6RjrmOiYxgIA
00:30:14 <ais523> only ¦ is really weird and unintuitive, and that's still a lot longer than you'd expect
00:30:22 <hhhhh> what is "$3¦"?
00:32:06 <ais523> ¦ is a quick that combines two code fragments
00:32:19 <ais523> the first fragment is 1+ which adds 1 to things
00:32:30 <ais523> although, I should just have used the increment builtin, ‘
00:32:38 <ais523> the second fragment is 3 which is the array index to affect
00:32:54 <hhhhh> whats $
00:32:59 <ais523> and ¦ operates on an array only at certain indexes (although it does this by operating on the whole of the array)
00:33:18 <ais523> $ is a grouping command that effectively puts the previous two code fragments into a group, like putting parentheses around them
00:33:28 <ais523> and also indicates that they take one argument (in this case, an array)
00:33:53 <ais523> we need to group them because otherwise ¦ will operate on + and 3, not on 1+ and 3
00:34:08 <ais523> if I replace 1+ with the builtin, the $ isn't needed: https://tio.run/##y0rNyan8//9RwwzjQ8v@//8fbahjpGOsY6JjGgsA
00:34:29 <hhhhh> why is the ¦ needed?
00:34:46 <hhhhh> oh, nvm.
00:35:22 <hhhhh> so (chain) (number) ¦ executes (chain) on array index (number)?
00:35:27 <ais523> right
00:35:36 <hhhhh> hm neat.
00:35:47 <ais523> except it doesn't, what it actually does is to execute the chain on the entire array, then put all the indexes other than the listed one back to what they were
00:35:54 <ais523> this might be a bug
00:36:03 <hhhhh> yes that does seem strange
00:36:44 <ais523> it comes to the same result in most cases, but when it doesn't it can be very confusing
00:39:18 <ais523> in Brachylog, the best I can do is to rotate the element to the start, increment it, then rotate the array back into order: https://tio.run/##SypKTM6ozMlPN/r//1HbrkdNTdqPmhpPbXjUthvI/v8/2lDHSMdYx0THVMcs9n8UAA
00:39:37 <hhhhh> hmm, unicode characters
00:39:40 <ais523> `! brachylog [1,2,3,4,5,6]↺₂+₁ʰ↻₂w
00:39:43 <hhhhh> do they count as a single byte for golfing purposes
00:39:44 <HackEso> ​[1,2,4,4,5,6] \ true.
00:40:06 <ais523> it isn't Unicode, most modern golfing languages make use of their own character sets with 256 different characters
00:40:15 <ais523> they aren't encoded as Unicode, but they are encoded as a single byte each
00:40:40 <hhhhh> okay. so if i make a golfing language it should only have up to 256 characters?
00:41:02 <ais523> the number of characters used should be a power of 2, using 256 different characters is nicely usable because you can have one byte per character
00:41:20 <ais523> but if, say, you only use 16 different characters then you can fit in two per byte, which halves the length of your code
00:41:41 <zzo38> Well, in this case they are all characters which are present in Unicode; I don't know if some uses characters which are not present in Unicode, although I do not expect so; there may be some whose Unicode representation is ambiguous, though, possibly
00:41:44 <ais523> most people use 256 though, or rather, they have 256 but don't use all of them (which makes their code somewhat suboptimal)
00:42:06 <ais523> zzo38: yes, it's common to use characters that all exist in Unicode, but to use a non-Unicode encoding for them
00:42:45 <ais523> this isn't always the case, e.g. Mathematica uses one character that isn't in Unicode (and when encoded as Unicode, encodes it to a private-use character), although it isn't a golfing language despite sometimes being used as one
00:43:02 <zzo38> What character is that?
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00:44:09 <ais523> it's a sort of lambda-like operator, according to the source I got it from it looks quite similar to ↦
00:44:32 <ais523> (but Mathematica treats it as a distinct character )
00:44:34 <ais523> `unidecode 
00:44:36 <HackEso> ​[U+F4A1 - No such unicode character name in database]
00:45:11 <hhhhh> very great language design
00:45:18 <ais523> if you ask Mathematica to save in a Unicode encoding then decode it using a different program, it becomes the private use character U+F4A1
00:46:24 <ais523> Jelly's character set was chosen to be typable on at least one pre-existing keyboard layout, without use of a compose key
00:47:08 <zzo38> O, OK, so that is what it is.
00:47:52 <ais523> I've had enough problems in Jelly with the distinction between Đ and Ð
00:47:55 <ais523> `unidecode Đ
00:48:02 <ais523> `unidecode Ð
00:48:04 <HackEso> ​[U+00D0 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER ETH]
00:48:42 <ais523> U+00D0 is in Jelly's character set, U+0110 isn't, and it's easy to accidentally type the wrong one and have the UTF-8 to Jelly convertor produce an invalid program as a result
00:48:47 <ais523> (it doesn't even error…)
00:49:13 <ais523> the lowercase forms are đ and ð respectively, which is why they're different characters
00:49:51 <zzo38> Presumably the converter should convert both U+0110 and U+00D0 into the same Jelly character code, when you are using input in Unicode, to avoid such a problem. (When converting into Unicode, you would only do U+00D0 out and not U+0110, I suppose)
00:49:53 <ais523> I can't distinguish the uppercases in the font I'm using, though
00:50:01 <zzo38> Which would be better, I think.
00:50:06 <ais523> zzo38: I agree
00:51:12 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76527&oldid=76446 * RocketRace * (+52) Jumpey
00:51:43 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76528&oldid=76527 * RocketRace * (+2) /* Control flow operations */
00:52:59 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76529&oldid=76528 * RocketRace * (+92) /* Surreal literals */
00:53:42 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76530&oldid=76529 * RocketRace * (+17) /* Stack operations */
00:54:17 <zzo38> (The font I have does not seem to distinguish those two characters either, it look like to me)
00:54:36 <esowiki> [[Subreal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76531&oldid=76530 * RocketRace * (-17) /* Stack operations */
00:55:07 <esowiki> [[Varsig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76532&oldid=20557 * LegionMammal978 * (+224) added interpreter link and categories
00:55:19 <hhhhh> https://tio.run/##S85KzP3/v1BdQb9aKcrV3y8kPMTDzd/NM9gz2NXV089TKcbIRtlIv1b1/39/P1eFkHB/hRCPIFcICyTi5h8apBDsGQEA CJam is cool
00:56:28 <ais523> I'm not very experienced with CJam, but it's basically best thought of as GolfScript 2
00:56:39 <ais523> it's very similar to GolfScript but has a much better set of builtins
00:57:14 <hhhhh> yeah, i thought it was pretty crazy that golfscript had you type entire english words like "do", "while", "if"...
00:59:38 <ais523> one of the things I like least about Brachylog is that it supports multiple-character variable names
01:00:15 <hhhhh> does it require them?
01:00:18 <ais523> from my perspective, it is unlikely that you will need more than 26 generic variables in a golfing language program (in fact, needing more than 2 is rare)
01:00:24 <ais523> no, single-character variable names are allowed
01:00:37 <ais523> but, it means that syntax consisting of two consecutive letters can't be used for another purpose
01:00:37 <hhhhh> how is it a bad thing to support things that arent required to be used?
01:00:40 <hhhhh> oh, i see.
01:01:05 <ais523> a good compromise would be to require multiple-character variable names to all start with the same letter
01:01:11 <ais523> e.g. Z
01:01:42 <ais523> then any of the other 25 variables could be used for syntax where concatenating them meant something (the obvious meaning in Brachylog is to have an implicit "and" between them)
01:01:42 <hhhhh> imagine not having 676 variables in your esolang. how terrible.
01:02:07 <ais523> this only becomes less space-efficient than the original when you have 53 or more variables
01:02:20 <ais523> and even using 3 is a bit of a stretch
01:02:41 <ais523> (most golfing languages have very concise ways to deal with temporaries)
01:03:00 <ais523> Jelly has only one variable for the entire program, which feels a bit restrictive sometimes, but it's rarely an issue in practice
01:04:55 <hhhhh> fair enough
01:05:22 <ais523> most programs don't use it
01:05:28 <hhhhh> i need to make an esolang interpreter where the PC has direction, so storing the program, the PC and its direction would be probably good for what i need to do
01:05:55 <ais523> (I have suggested that Jelly should have a global *dictionary*; this would allow you to simulate arbitrary many global variables if you needed them by using one key per variable, and would also be useful for other purposes)
01:07:20 <hhhhh> huh, no built in base conversion in cjam?
01:07:58 <ais523> people have gotten better at making golfing languages over time
01:08:28 <hhhhh> time to find "cjam but actually utilizing the 256 character limit slightly more"
01:08:33 <ais523> I think the best way to make one is to look at existing golfing languages to see which builtins you need, but come up with something innovative in terms of encoding or control flow or data flow
01:09:10 <hhhhh> well, id be quite happy with just cjam+extra builtins like base conversion, really
01:09:19 <zzo38> Does Jelly have any dictionary object at all? Also, if you were to extend it, how to do?
01:10:04 <hhhhh> ah cjam does have base conversion i missed it oops
01:10:38 <zzo38> I started writing a new specification of a golf programming language too, but it is not finish yet.
01:11:13 <ais523> zzo38: it has some support for interpreting an array of key-values pairs as though it were a dictionary
01:11:46 <ais523> but probably doesn't have any actual dictionaries (unless you can somehow jailbreak the interpreter into running arbitrary Python)
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02:41:21 <esowiki> [[Rui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76533&oldid=76233 * DanielCristofani * (+198) /* Examples */
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03:46:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Two]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76534 * Caenbe * (+1351) Created talk page with attempt at a rigorous def.
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05:04:28 <esowiki> [[Bit~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76535&oldid=63897 * Bangyen * (+103)
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05:10:32 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76536&oldid=76482 * Bangyen * (+126) /* Implementations */
05:14:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:MAWP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76537 * JonoCode9374 * (+278) Created page with "= Negative Numbers = I used to be able to. Now I can't. <!-- This is so sad, Alexa play despacito --> How do I do it? ~~~~"
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12:26:08 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Penisscript]] to [[PenisScript]]: fix capitalization
12:39:19 <b_jonas> "I can't distinguish the uppercases in the font I'm using, though" => I can distinguish icelandic Eth and serbian Dje but that's because it's in my terminal font and I specifically want all common non-space chars distinguishable even if that makes one of them ugly
12:43:45 <b_jonas> so the icelandic Eth has a slanted stroke
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14:24:17 <esowiki> [[Ix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76541&oldid=76001 * Orisphera * (+241)
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16:07:20 <esowiki> [[Divzeros]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76542&oldid=20843 * LegionMammal978 * (+196) added interpreter link and categories
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17:40:22 <int-e> Btw, annoyances... why does https://github.com/ (coming there without a cookie) give me a prominent signup dialog, but no direct way of logging in? That requires an extra click...
17:41:27 <int-e> (Rhetorical question, I think I know why. I don't think it's a *good* reason.)
17:41:31 <int-e> `? device
17:41:34 <HackEso> A device is a browser session. Please verify your device.
17:41:35 <int-e> (related)
17:43:43 <myname> logging into bitbucket is horrible as well
17:44:30 <int-e> I forgot. I removed the bitbucket account that I once had.
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17:47:25 <int-e> The best part of that was the final paragraph here: http://sprunge.us/OWUWYH
17:53:18 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76543&oldid=75792 * DmilkaSTD * (-23)
17:56:12 <esowiki> [[Qu 1.0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76544&oldid=75492 * DmilkaSTD * (+6)
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18:03:41 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76545&oldid=76543 * DmilkaSTD * (-85)
18:04:26 <esowiki> [[Bigspace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76546&oldid=75158 * DmilkaSTD * (-55) removed the first warning
18:07:19 <esowiki> [[Espaol]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76547&oldid=75008 * DmilkaSTD * (+26)
18:10:27 <esowiki> [[XPML17]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76548&oldid=50647 * DmilkaSTD * (+15) +stub
18:15:07 <fizzie> "Oh, I heard it through the grapefruit / Oh, I'm just about to lose my mind" makes equally much sense as the actual lyrics.
18:16:03 <esowiki> [[Anarchysm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76549&oldid=75798 * DmilkaSTD * (-27) -uncomputable category
18:19:20 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Flv * New user account
18:20:42 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76550&oldid=76545 * DmilkaSTD * (+111)
18:23:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76551&oldid=76526 * Flv * (+96) /* Introductions */
18:24:16 <esowiki> [[User:Flv]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76552 * Flv * (+127) Created page with "hello ! i am currently studying esolangs in general ! for a talk ! i have been involved in the creation of the esolang fleuve."
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19:45:48 <esowiki> [[Trueclone]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76553 * DmilkaSTD * (+2515) Created page with "{{lowercase}} '''Trueclone''' is an esoteric language designed to make [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaghetti_code Spaghetti code]. == trueclone == * trueclone uses goto st..."
19:46:38 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76554&oldid=76550 * DmilkaSTD * (-24)
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20:36:23 <esowiki> [[Number Seventy-Four]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76555&oldid=76483 * Bangyen * (+63)
20:52:44 <esowiki> [[Complode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76556&oldid=53084 * LegionMammal978 * (+189) added interpreter link and categories
21:00:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:BytFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76557 * Bangyen * (+280) Created page with "==Questions== * <code></code> and <code></code> move both pointers, correct? * Which bit is the first bit? * Are cells still unsigned? * Is the tape still right unbounde..."
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21:01:23 <Davenz> accidenti,ne cercavo una in italiano!
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21:32:14 <flv> hello ! does anyone have links/resources related to esoteric interpreters ? def: an unusual interpreter that can be used on any language. i have been googling but most things I find are about esoteric language interpreters, and not general interpreters... does this make sense ? thanks !
21:48:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Number Seventy-Four]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76558 * Bangyen * (+257) Created page with "==Questions== * If the data string is only output once the program terminates, doesn't that mean that the truth machine never outputs anything when the input is <code>1</code>..."
21:50:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Number Seventy-Four]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76559&oldid=76558 * Bangyen * (+97)
21:56:58 <b_jonas> flv: there's no interpreter that can interpret any language. that's literally impossible.
21:57:39 <flv> i mean, yes, but also, it depends what you mean by interpreter ?
21:58:18 <b_jonas> elanamirellam: also we know he's in a place with no good wired internet suppliers, so maybe you can guess location from that
22:01:10 <b_jonas> And I assume amazon.de and amazon.nl and amazon.fr doesn't have enough computer parts that ship there too
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23:19:39 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76561&oldid=76551 * Iah * (+91)
23:20:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76562&oldid=76561 * Iah * (+0)
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00:37:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Number Seventy-Four]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76563&oldid=76559 * Bangyen * (+82)
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01:04:33 <b_jonas> I wonder how many significantly different media types there are for which a language can be optimized, for how many of them has an entirely new language unrelated to any previously existed language or an entirely new script ever get created, and whether there are esoteric possibilities there waiting for us.
01:05:16 <zzo38> Can you give any examples?
01:06:45 <b_jonas> For writing, there are forms of writing optimized for writing in soft clay that may later be burned to hard, carving in hard stone, carving in wood, writing on paper with ink, on paper with typewriter, on paper with traditional professional metal press, on paper with digital graphics-capable monocolored printer,
01:07:59 <zzo38> OK. Yes, there are, but I don't know if other media than what you mentioned.
01:08:02 <b_jonas> on paper with digital graphics-capable multicolored printer, punched on paper with a hand-operated stylus and read tactile, punched on paper by more complicated means and read tactile, formed from bended neon lights;
01:08:40 <zzo38> O, yes, although often neon lights don't use a different alphabet, just a different style
01:09:03 <b_jonas> for sign languages there's ordinary sign languages, variants optimized for signing mostly or completely one-handed, and more tactile versions for communications to blind-deaf;
01:09:36 <b_jonas> from spoken there's ordinary speech, whispering, shouting, whistling, humming, and maybe some musical instruments.
01:09:48 <zzo38> Somehow I thought you only meant writing at first, but yes, there is that too.
01:10:06 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, for most of these I can only think of examples that are just modified variants of others, which is for practical reasons of not having to learn too many different languages or forms of writing.
01:11:52 <b_jonas> Oh, and there's optimized for speech in a noisy environment, for which we have the English-based language used in air traffic communication.
01:12:08 <b_jonas> There's probably a lot of untapped esoteric potential.
01:12:12 <zzo38> Ah, yes.
01:12:18 <flv> b_jonas: in my thoughts, I am envisioning interpreters as an artistic interpretation of a program, like in a drama. e.g. let's say, i was to write an interpreter that reads only fully-formed words in English that are part of the program ? does this make sense ?
01:13:03 <flv> this interpreter could work with any given program, no matter which language it was written it. it's just that it's not a very useful interpretation...!
01:13:43 <b_jonas> flv: I don't really understand. How is it still an interpreter for that language if it doesn't execute the program?
01:14:27 <b_jonas> Well, I'll have to sleep on this and try to think of the best untapped esoteric potential.
01:15:17 <b_jonas> Esolangers have already invented a lot of strange esolangs that use weird types of media of course, probably popularized a lot by Piet.
01:15:17 <flv> b_jonas: I mean, you could then write something to execute the code that follows the interpretation
01:16:29 <b_jonas> Also, I should start a list of interesting esolangs on my esowiki userpage, with short spoilery descriptions, because many esolang names are easy to forget even if you remember what the language does.
01:17:02 <flv> b_jonas: e.g. associate each English word with a certain binary number and call it a day ?
01:19:15 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Efghij is my favorite esoteric media type for esolangs
01:22:29 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, make such a list including descriptions; I might like to see too (and maybe I forgot, too)
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01:58:20 <esowiki> [[Eodermdrome]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76564&oldid=63648 * Ais523 * (-29) /* Implementations */ unpipe link
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02:16:31 <esowiki> [[Stones]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76565&oldid=50841 * LegionMammal978 * (-6) fixed title
02:16:42 <esowiki> [[Stones]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76566&oldid=76565 * LegionMammal978 * (+1)
02:16:57 <esowiki> [[Stones]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76567&oldid=76566 * LegionMammal978 * (+2)
02:17:33 <esowiki> [[Stones]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76568&oldid=76567 * LegionMammal978 * (+2) I should really use the preview
02:32:28 <zzo38> I suppose other possibilities may include multi-peoples hand signs, hand signs with flags, non-humans signs/writing/speech, computer displays (both low and high resolutions can be considered, and both mono and colours), air writing with smoke (or magic, if you want to consider stuff other than actual stuff), speech with especially short or long durations, etc.
02:33:08 <zzo38> (I also think I read somewhere about different languages being different due to the different acoustics of the environment, such as how many trees there are, etc)
02:34:09 <zzo38> (Actually, in the case of computer displays, still or animation can be another possibility.)
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07:28:20 <zzo38> O, I suppose another possible media with writing might be writing with chalk.
07:29:26 <zzo38> And, I suppose another possible variant for sign language might be by feet.
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07:53:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Swc * New user account
07:58:06 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76569&oldid=76562 * Swc * (+245)
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08:07:35 <arseniiv> hello
08:25:10 <esowiki> [[Tru]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76570 * Swc * (+5405) Created page with "'''Tru''' is an esoteric programming language of brackets using prefix-free code, designed by [[User:Swc]]. The language runtime has two built-in stacks. The instructions to..."
08:26:00 <esowiki> [[User:Swc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76571 * Swc * (+36) Created page with "True programmers program in [[Tru]]."
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08:27:00 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76572&oldid=76510 * Swc * (+10)
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13:39:36 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76573&oldid=76505 * Razetime * (+331) /* Example Programs */
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13:55:28 <wib_jonas> zzo38: well, I've known the non-esoteric possibility that I want: I'd like a good family of sans-serif fonts with a consistent look for text including mathematical formulas, optimized for slides with the contemporary mid-resolution LCD projectors.
13:57:09 <wib_jonas> The CM and other mathematical fonts are serif fonts, and optimized for printing on paper, rather than viewing from a distance on a projected screen, so they're not ideal, but there don't seem to be good quality sans serif mathematical fonts that qualify.
13:57:48 <wib_jonas> So there's a gap between handwritten mathematics (either overhead projector slides or whiteboard or chalkboard) and printed on paper that should be filled.
13:58:09 <wib_jonas> Ideally I should make such a font set, but learning to make good fonts and making good fonts takes a ton of times.
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14:03:09 <fizzie> wib_jonas: I don't know if it's any good really, but https://github.com/firamath/firamath is meant for your use case as far as I can tell. (The showcase images are clearly beamer slides.)
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14:04:34 <wib_jonas> fizzie: that looks at least interesting, thank you
14:06:06 <fizzie> I think that's probably the thing I landed on when I made some slides in beamer for a course I was TA for, and I think I got there by going through https://tug.org/FontCatalogue/mathfonts.html and looking for anything without serifs. There's a few other candidates on the list too, though the vast majority are serif fonts.
14:06:32 <int-e> . o O ( "A lot of times", of course, alludes to the multitude of newspapers called "___ Times", some of which commissioned their own fonts. )
14:07:02 <int-e> s/lot/ton/, sorry.
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14:50:55 <arseniiv> <wib_jonas> Ideally I should make such a font set, but learning to make good fonts and making good fonts takes a ton of times. => also there seem to be no font creating software which is comfortable to work with, in drawing and editing glyphs. AFAIU people just edit in some other software and then import, but I see a lot of problem with this approach and at least it’s problematic for me to make a routine. I can’t even make a font for a conscript w
14:50:55 <arseniiv> ith ink-looking glyphs in Inkscape from an image with layers a layer for a glyph each
14:53:07 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: that is certainly part of the software
14:54:27 <wib_jonas> more realistically, I should update my fecupboard20 font with more characters, and better images for some of the existing characters. the ASCII parts are stable and haven't needed a change for years, I've been using it in terminals in my home machine a lot, but there are characters missing and ones that are ugly.
14:55:15 <wib_jonas> also I started a tiny bitmap font, and for that I actually collected a decent list of characters that I want, so I can start from that list to add characters to fecupboard.
14:56:04 <wib_jonas> the tiny font is variable pitch
14:58:31 <arseniiv> what are the uses for tiny bitmap fonts nowadays aside from oldskooly games with big pixel graphics?
14:59:15 <arseniiv> hm FontForge’s website looks like the software got a revamp some time ago?..
14:59:26 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: mostly just esoteric uses, yes, but it's also that a bitmap font is easier and faster to make than a graymap font, even though I could use a graymap font and it would look better
14:59:54 <wib_jonas> although some people want to use tiny font in some hardware like led displays or magnetic displays
15:00:13 <wib_jonas> there are a lot of led displays that are only 8 pixels tall, and that's really limiting
15:01:07 <wib_jonas> some are actually double height, so a pixel is made of two leds and is approx twice as high as wide, but the two leds don't seem to be individually controlled. but these double height ones are used mostly for advertising
15:01:40 <wib_jonas> but I'm making an even smaller font, one that's only 6 pixel tall, with 1 pixel ascender and 1 pixel descender
15:01:56 <fizzie> TI calculators are a good use case for tiny bitmap fonts.
15:03:22 <wib_jonas> as for 8 pixel tall fonts, or 8 pixel tall with 8 pixels of gap, those were useful for games running on old hardware with small ROM and not too capable graphics chip, like NES, SNES, Game Boy, GBC
15:03:31 <wib_jonas> I meen small ROM on the game cartridge
15:04:17 <wib_jonas> on SNES and GBC a few games even used 8 px tall and 4 px wide fonts for their English version, with the CPU copying two characters into one tile definition dynamically as it prints text
15:05:22 <wib_jonas> I was quite surprised when I first saw that, because displaying such text seems impossible on that hardware at first. I think I've only seen two games that does this, IIRC Earthbound and GBC Pokemon TCG but there might be more
15:06:17 <wib_jonas> but a lot of games use 8x8px fonts, or 8x8px fonts with an empty row between that is sometimes used for dakuten, the arch-example being GB Pokemon red/blue
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15:13:50 <arseniiv> I made a couple of small pixel fonts myself in Fontstruct :D though that was a while ago and my goal of wide codepoint coverage wasn’t quite reached at all
15:34:43 <fizzie> The only font I've ever done is the one for https://zem.fi/rfk86/ which is a 4x6 cell with mostly 3x5 characters. But that definitely didn't aspire to (or need) high codepoint coverage. I think I just drew it in Gimp with the grid set to 4x6 pixels, into an image with a couple of 64x48 pixel (16x8=128 character) layers.
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16:15:23 <FireFly> I cam across https://dwarffortresswiki.org/Tileset_repository a while ago which has some really tiny bitmap fonts
16:16:14 <FireFly> I also have an incomplete list of sub-8x8 bitmap fonts that I can locate in a bit
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16:39:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:BytFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76574&oldid=76557 * DmilkaSTD * (+217)
16:39:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:BytFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76575&oldid=76574 * DmilkaSTD * (-38)
16:40:22 <esowiki> [[BytFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76576&oldid=75007 * DmilkaSTD * (-10)
16:41:06 <esowiki> [[BytFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76577&oldid=76576 * DmilkaSTD * (+42)
16:42:54 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76578&oldid=76554 * DmilkaSTD * (-1)
16:51:44 <FireFly> https://up.firefly.nu/tmp/fontlist.note.html has some assorted tiny bitmap fonts
16:53:46 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76579&oldid=76578 * DmilkaSTD * (-13)
16:54:02 <FireFly> for whatever reason I've always enjoyed really tiny bitmap fonts (both studying and making them)
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17:04:59 <esowiki> [[Trueclone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76580&oldid=76553 * DmilkaSTD * (+172) +Categories
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17:18:48 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I didn't claim that I'd have wide codepoint coverage. I'd only have slightly more than in fecupboard20, but some of those few characters are important to me.
17:19:48 <b_jonas> `? fonts
17:19:50 <HackEso> ​#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/
17:20:10 <b_jonas> we might need to convert this to a page on the esolang wiki, even though it's not really esolang-related
17:20:14 <b_jonas> because it's getting long
17:21:50 <FireFly> could have it as a userpage somewhere
17:22:46 <int-e> more fun with bridges, https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/wobbly.jpg
17:23:06 <int-e> (it doesn't look like much but it was really cheap!)
17:23:39 <b_jonas> int-e: which bridge builder game is that?
17:23:52 <myname> i miss armadillo run
17:24:10 <myname> awesome physics game, would love an android port
17:25:26 <b_jonas> and are those orange road sections orange because they're stretched?
17:25:48 <myname> color should be the stress on each segment
17:27:34 <b_jonas> ok, then those road segments are probably stretched
17:27:43 <int-e> b_jonas: Bridge Constructor Medieval
17:29:23 <int-e> I don't know how the Bridge Constructor franchise compares to Polybridge. It's obviously a bit smoother and more diverse (if you count the various spinoffs) than the original Bridge Builder.
17:29:25 <b_jonas> medieval? so those are supposed to be wooden beams, not steel?
17:31:21 <int-e> the colors indicate stress... https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/wobblyc.jpg is the construction without stress indication.
17:31:35 <int-e> and this is under Linux, the graphics may not be perfect.
17:34:42 <b_jonas> hehe, [[///]] is not parsed as a link to the /// language on the wiki, you have to write eg. [[:///]]
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17:53:46 <esowiki> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76581&oldid=70006 * B jonas * (+675) start Incomplete list of some interesting or notable esolangs
17:56:16 <esowiki> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76582&oldid=76581 * B jonas * (+64) /* Incomplete list of some interesting or notable esolangs */
17:57:09 <arseniiv> b_jonas: Funciton?
17:58:13 <esowiki> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76583&oldid=76582 * B jonas * (+34)
18:06:58 <esowiki> [[ZeptoBasic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76584&oldid=57785 * DmilkaSTD * (+4) grammar++
18:09:06 <zzo38> Did you try making up fonts with METAFONT?
18:10:59 <esowiki> [[Category:ICFP contest]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76585&oldid=73618 * B jonas * (+91)
18:14:21 <esowiki> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76586&oldid=76583 * B jonas * (+897)
18:14:44 <b_jonas> arseniiv: no sorry, I don't much like Funciton
18:15:23 <b_jonas> I don't usually talk about that because people don't keep inventing variants or using it for everything like for brainfuck
18:15:32 <b_jonas> but it's just not a language I like. no specific reason.
18:16:05 <b_jonas> but Funciton was a featured language, so it's already two clicks from the front page I think
18:16:12 <b_jonas> one click
18:16:21 <b_jonas> "Previously featured: Funciton · Brainfuck · Deadfish · Emmental · more…"
18:16:49 <b_jonas> so no need to advertise it more. I could mention Intercal.
18:17:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, but I have made a few simple illustrations with metapost,
18:18:15 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> but it's just not a language I like. no specific reason. => ah. I understand
18:19:25 <b_jonas> it's not even that it's a two-dimensional language, I'm fine with fungeoids if they're not misused, and I have some ideas for a two-dimensional functional language that is more like funciton than befunge in semantics, but I haven't managed to put together a sane combination yet
18:20:03 <b_jonas> I have some very specific ideas about the basic syntax, but I might have to split this to multiple different languages semantics-wise depending on how user-defined functions are defined and called
18:20:27 <b_jonas> I haven't really tried to work much on this yet
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18:21:22 <b_jonas> it's just an idea that I think has to be done because there doesn't yet seem to be an esolang like that, but it isn't too esoteric, and I don't mind too much if someone else does it well first
18:23:41 <b_jonas> it's just a silly 2D syntax for an ordinary imperative or functional language (there may have to be two or three different versions depending) where variables are encoded not with names, not implicitly with pointless programming, not with stack indexes, but with columns in the source code
18:24:34 <b_jonas> it translates both ways into some ordinary programming language with plain syntax, it's not some actually interesting and unique idea like Consumer Society
18:39:46 <esowiki> [[Stones]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76587&oldid=76568 * DmilkaSTD * (-12)
18:43:14 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76588&oldid=76579 * DmilkaSTD * (+63)
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21:27:41 <esowiki> [[Set]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76589&oldid=75712 * Qwertyu63 * (+75) /* Links */
21:27:51 <esowiki> [[Set]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76590&oldid=76589 * Qwertyu63 * (+1) /* Links */
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21:38:07 <esowiki> [[Set]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76591&oldid=76590 * Qwertyu63 * (+160) /* Example code */
21:38:45 <esowiki> [[Set]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76592&oldid=76591 * Qwertyu63 * (+16) /* 99 Bottles of Beer */
21:40:19 <esowiki> [[Set]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76593&oldid=76592 * Qwertyu63 * (-13) /* Truth Machine */
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07:06:57 <zzo38> Do you know if any version of Firefox implements RFC 5147? My computer doesn't seem to do.
07:11:27 <Taneb> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=660583 maybe not
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12:44:55 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76594&oldid=76162 * B jonas * (+372) /* Partially Silly Ideas */
13:55:23 <tswett[m]> Everyone, I have a good idea.
13:55:44 <tswett[m]> I want to write an operating system for the 8088 IBM PC in Rust.
14:00:38 <tswett[m]> That might prove to be incredibly difficult, especially if I want to use several different kinds of pointers.
14:02:09 <tswett[m]> This is a 16-bit pointer into the data segment. This is a 16-bit pointer into the stack segment. Don't know which segment you need? Whoops, looks like you need a 32-bit pointer.
14:08:36 <tswett[m]> And let's hope you never need protected mode!
14:27:41 <esowiki> [[Stopwatch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76595&oldid=71434 * GDavid * (+74) Break, continue
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14:46:40 <esowiki> [[Stopwatch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76596&oldid=76595 * GDavid * (+202) Global variables, lambdas, nested function declarations, variable declaration scope
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16:23:42 <zzo38> Does Rust support 8088?
16:26:38 <uplime> zzo38: seems to: https://ideone.com/FNZvRv
16:29:22 <myname> well, as long as llvm supports it, i don't see a reason why not to
16:29:56 <myname> operations on larger integer types may be slow as hell
16:30:30 <int-e> . o O ( hello world may not fit into your code segment )
16:30:53 <myname> just point the instruction pointer to you rom
16:30:56 <int-e> more seriously, what does the runtime support for that look like
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16:51:18 <b_jonas> `olist 1210
16:51:20 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1210.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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17:00:51 <esowiki> [[Ix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76597&oldid=76541 * Orisphera * (+31)
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18:03:17 <user24> create a language in which you don't write a program, but give its "fourier components" - the reccurence of each keyword in the sequence of statements (amplitude of a certain 'keyword frequency') and their collective shift (phase), some cancelling each other out
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18:18:24 <zzo38> Is there a restricted subset of Markdown without HTML? I would suggest such a variant for use with some NNTP services, where additionally text with @ within <> is treated as a message ID. If there is a header "Content-type: text/markdown" then some implementations may display it formatted; if not, it will be displayed raw and still work perfectly OK anyways. (Other restrictions may also be added, such as no pictures, and no relative URL
18:20:23 <ais523> zzo38: I believe there are multiple such subsets, incompatible with each other, because people find it useful and invent something without standardising it
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18:21:48 <b_jonas> I prefer HTML without markdown
18:22:18 <zzo38> b_jonas: For writing HTML documents, that works, but not all documents are going to be HTML based documents.
18:22:46 <fizzie> Markdown dialects *with* HTML probably aren't any better standardized. Though maybe GFM has gotten some amount of adoption, and at least it's got a spec.
18:26:07 <zzo38> (I don't use Markdown myself when writing HTML documents, but not all documents will be HTML.)
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18:53:35 <zzo38> How common is the .so and .ds commands in man pages?
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19:08:25 <esowiki> [[Esofun]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76598&oldid=72285 * Palaiologos * (-3)
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19:41:24 <ais523> I tried to create my own unambiguous markup language that was Markdown-like, designed to be more readable and round-trip properly with HTML
19:41:32 <ais523> but I haven't managed to find a syntax for block elements that I like
19:43:39 <ais523> http://nethack4.org/pastebin/mf-spec-unfinished.txt if you're interested in the syntax for inline encoding
19:44:02 <ais523> it basically uses a combination of spaces and hyphens to resolve ambiguities, in a way that looks natural in non-contrived situations
19:48:11 <kspalaiologos> I managed to get Lisp up and running in Malbolge
19:48:15 <kspalaiologos> and it requires only 1,7GB of RAM
19:48:23 <kspalaiologos> and you can run it in finite time, and it computes 2 + 2 in just 40 seconds
19:48:26 <kspalaiologos> yes, you heard it right
19:49:51 <spruit11> Esolang idea: incredibly hard to type terms.
19:49:55 <ais523> well done!
19:50:10 <ais523> I did put some thought into how to design a faster Malbolge-20 interpreter but didn't reach any conclusions
19:51:13 <kspalaiologos> http://kspalaiologos.now.im/doc/MalbolgeLisp/MalbolgeLisp.gif
19:51:18 <kspalaiologos> http://kspalaiologos.now.im/doc/MalbolgeLisp/MalbolgeLisp.7z
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20:23:11 <esowiki> [[Ix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76599&oldid=76597 * DmilkaSTD * (-10)
20:24:30 <esowiki> [[Anguish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76600&oldid=73686 * DmilkaSTD * (+9) added stub
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20:40:28 <thblt> Hey, I have a stupid question. Provided that Turing completeness is determined under the hypothesis of infinite memory, have there been attempts to make languages that are Turing complete under that hypothosis, but that make it impossible to implement any algorithm under any finite memory amount?
20:41:06 <thblt> The obvious trick would be to make allocation fail if it would only leave a finite amount of memory available, but that's cheating.
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21:23:05 <esowiki> [[Stones]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76601&oldid=76587 * LegionMammal978 * (+0) pretty sure the name is in lowercase, given the two README files' titles
21:27:39 <esowiki> [[Computerdeutsch]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76602 * Orangeyy * (+9142) Created page with "Computerdeutsch ("Computer-German") is an esolang by User:Orangeyy based on the grammar of the German language. Basic knowledge of German is recommended. It is a work in progr..."
21:35:25 <esowiki> [[Full Stack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76603&oldid=66977 * Challenger5 * (+110) change the spec to permit loops
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21:50:51 <int-e> Is it sad that https://ro-che.info/ccc/11 made me laugh?
22:18:59 <esowiki> [[Rui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76604&oldid=76533 * Sinthorion * (-65)
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23:13:32 <esowiki> [[User:JonoCode9374]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76605&oldid=76408 * JonoCode9374 * (+10) /* Languages I like */
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23:40:03 <esowiki> [[Full Stack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76606&oldid=76603 * Challenger5 * (+46)
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00:00:52 <tswett[m]> thblt: What do you mean by "impossible to implement any algorithm under any finite memory amount"?
00:01:11 <tswett[m]> Do you mean make it so that all algorithms require an infinite amount of memory?
00:01:56 <tswett[m]> Or do you mean make it so that there's a particular amount of memory such that if less than that much memory is available, no algorithms can be implemented?
00:02:27 <tswett[m]> Or do you mean make it so that there's a particular amount of memory such that if an algorithm requires less than that much memory, then it cannot be implemented?
00:07:02 <tswett[m]> I'm guessing you meant the first of those.
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06:50:41 <esowiki> [[Full Stack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76607&oldid=76606 * Challenger5 * (+233)
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08:14:39 <thblt> tswett[m]: something like that, it's not very clear to me. I just had the idea that it could be possible to play with the “infinite memory” hypothesis by making a langage that only actually works on infinite memory.
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08:33:04 <esowiki> [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76608&oldid=76451 * TwilightSparkle * (+18) /* See Also */
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10:59:35 <esowiki> [[1+/Programs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76609 * TwilightSparkle * (+1975) Created page with "{{Back|1+}} This page provide links to most, if not all, 1+ programs ever written, excluding the example programs on the [[1+]] page. == CGCC == From oldest to newest. Thes..."
10:59:50 <esowiki> [[1+/Programs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76610&oldid=76609 * TwilightSparkle * (-206) /* CGCC */
11:04:32 <esowiki> [[APL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76611&oldid=75941 * Amakukha * (+32)
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13:35:46 <esowiki> [[1+/Programs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76612&oldid=76610 * TwilightSparkle * (+162) /* CGCC */
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13:54:55 <duckologist> Hello
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14:41:06 <esowiki> [[Trueclone]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76613&oldid=76580 * LegionMammal978 * (+0) fixed title
14:41:56 <esowiki> [[Computerdeutsch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76614&oldid=76602 * Orangeyy * (-25)
14:43:27 <esowiki> [[Computerdeutsch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76615&oldid=76614 * Orangeyy * (+10) /* Logical operators = */
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15:16:34 <esowiki> [[Code is eso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76616&oldid=75794 * DmilkaSTD * (-91)
15:17:57 <esowiki> [[Trueclone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76617&oldid=76613 * DmilkaSTD * (-180)
15:24:37 <esowiki> [[Mornington Crescent]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76618&oldid=47057 * LegionMammal978 * (+0) /* Interpreters */ fixed capitalization
15:28:27 <esowiki> [[Swearjure]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76619&oldid=73439 * DmilkaSTD * (+9)
15:28:55 <esowiki> [[Swearjure]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76620&oldid=76619 * DmilkaSTD * (-9)
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15:43:24 <esowiki> [[BF-ASM:8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76621&oldid=75793 * DmilkaSTD * (-1026)
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17:33:53 <kspalaiologos> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/733242619567800383/743142414352515142/unknown.png
17:33:55 <kspalaiologos> another lisp session
17:33:58 <kspalaiologos> this time printing a factorial
17:34:14 <kspalaiologos> now I'm going to try something more complex; most probably some sort of a sort (lol)
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17:37:04 <esowiki> [[Cliff L. Biffle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76622&oldid=66848 * Lucas * (-34) update personal website links
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17:51:10 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76623&oldid=76204 * Palaiologos * (-4) link revival
17:52:31 <esowiki> [[MalbolgeLisp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76624 * Palaiologos * (+890) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=MalbolgeLisp |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:Palaiologos|Palaiologos]] |year=[[:Category:2020|2020]] |memsys=list |class=Turing-complete|Turing..."
17:52:41 <esowiki> [[MalbolgeLisp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76625&oldid=76624 * Palaiologos * (-42)
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18:38:05 <esowiki> [[Computerdeutsch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76626&oldid=76615 * Orangeyy * (+1718) Computerdeutsch is an esolang based on the grammar and vocabulary of the German language.
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18:39:51 <esowiki> [[User:Orangeyy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76627&oldid=76424 * Orangeyy * (+95)
18:40:20 <esowiki> [[User:Orangeyy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76628&oldid=76627 * Orangeyy * (+2)
18:40:45 <esowiki> [[EWagon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76629&oldid=60164 * Orangeyy * (-5)
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19:12:19 <esowiki> [[Computerdeutsch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76630&oldid=76626 * Orangeyy * (+1891)
19:13:28 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76631&oldid=76572 * Orangeyy * (+22)
19:16:24 <esowiki> [[Computerdeutsch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76632&oldid=76630 * Orangeyy * (+4) /* Loop */
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19:21:20 <esowiki> [[Computerdeutsch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76633&oldid=76632 * Orangeyy * (+232)
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19:54:35 <esowiki> [[Bitter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76634&oldid=61387 * DMC * (+335) add an explanation showing how to use Bitter
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21:45:58 <arseniiv> why is it so hard to write a CV even when a friend helps with it at a highest degree and guides you with various questions and suggestions?
21:46:30 <arseniiv> and I’m not sure that it will come to something useful at all
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21:48:31 <arseniiv> is there an exit when all pet projects you have are written to be seen only by yourself and usually even not finished to be compilable (not always but often)
21:52:16 <arseniiv> is there a sun when essentially all you know you do despite—not thanks to—education which is also unfinished, and you have no geographically local peers in these matters to compare your achievements to and something something
21:52:17 <arseniiv> sorry
21:52:38 <b_jonas> arseniiv: get a job where you can write pet projects useful for work
21:52:59 <arseniiv> b_jonas: yeah but that requires a CV usually?
21:53:00 <b_jonas> and yes, writing a CV is high
21:53:15 <b_jonas> s/high/hard/
21:53:26 <b_jonas> as are all the other things associated with getting a job
21:53:29 <arseniiv> maybe I also should be high to succesfully write it without too much pain :D
21:55:26 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> as are all the other things associated with getting a job => I don’t think all of them are. I presume making yourself known to potential employers is tedious but that should be more or less mechanical instead of mind-numbing
21:56:21 <b_jonas> it's not really making yourself known, but doing the interviews right and all that
21:57:48 <arseniiv> I’ll better not think about this aspect for now or I’ll bail out again
22:17:53 <arseniiv> I wrote a long addendum but I bet this isn’t a therapy channel so I better keep it for myself
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23:51:17 <esowiki> [[Full Stack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76635&oldid=76607 * Challenger5 * (+12)
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02:32:09 <esowiki> [[Number Seventy-Four]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76636&oldid=76555 * Bangyen * (-164)
02:39:10 <esowiki> [[1+/Programs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76637&oldid=76612 * TwilightSparkle * (+0)
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03:26:48 <zzo38> Goblins of Healing {(W/R)(W/R)} Creature - Goblin (1/1) ;; Bands with other white Goblins ;; {1}, {T}: Flip a coin. If heads, or if any white mana was spent to pay the cost of this ability, prevent the next 1 damage to target damageable this turn. If tails, or if any red mana was spend to pay the cost of this ability, ~ deals 1 damage to target damageable. If your mana pool contains both white and red mana as this ability resolves, the
03:28:37 <zzo38> Mixed Worlds {-} Legendary World Land ;; The world rule and legend rule do not apply. ;; {T}: Add one mana of any color into your mana pool. This mana can only be spent on the cost of a world spell; if you do, then that spell loses the world supertype. ;; Cumulative upkeep {1}
03:29:09 <zzo38> Do you like this?
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08:10:36 <esowiki> [[User:JonoCode9374]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76638&oldid=76605 * JonoCode9374 * (+11) /* Languages I like */
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10:51:15 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76639&oldid=76573 * Dion * (+93)
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11:23:45 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76640&oldid=76639 * TwilightSparkle * (+110) /* Computational class */
11:42:22 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76641&oldid=76640 * TwilightSparkle * (+6) /* All integers */ "All integers" is rather inaccurate too, as there are negative integers.
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12:06:58 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76642&oldid=76641 * TwilightSparkle * (+238) /* Computational class */
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12:32:59 <kspalaiologos2> uh, what
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12:41:37 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76643&oldid=76642 * D * (+142) Turing Complete as well
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12:47:11 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76644&oldid=76643 * D * (+144)
12:54:39 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76645&oldid=70282 * D * (+168) Simplify the language
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14:53:05 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Polarz * New user account
14:55:15 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76646&oldid=76569 * Polarz * (+66) /* Introductions */
14:55:30 <esowiki> [[User:Polarz]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76647 * Polarz * (+46) Created page with "Interested in writing in and writing esolangs."
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16:13:36 <esowiki> [[MATL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76648&oldid=73677 * Luis Mendo * (+10)
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00:05:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ona li toki e jan Epiphany tawa mi * New user account
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00:31:30 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76649&oldid=76646 * Ona li toki e jan Epiphany tawa mi * (+491) /* Introductions */
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05:08:24 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76650&oldid=76644 * TwilightSparkle * (-2) /* Computational class */
05:39:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Mornington Crescent]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76651&oldid=68666 * TwilightSparkle * (+161) /* A Game of Mornington Crescent */
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08:29:01 <Arcorann> https://twitter.com/400_tuba/status/1293536424789028869 <-- bottle of dihydrogen monoxide
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10:21:32 <wib_jonas> today's https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/soul-3 says there aren't enough souls so not all humans have one, and "The soul wait-list for new babies is basically eternal." I see two possible interpretations: either every new baby gets onto the waiting list but get a soul only if they have been waiting on the list for the longest time when a soul
10:21:32 <wib_jonas> becomes free, in which case only the oldest people have souls, in this case only people way over 100 years old;
10:22:47 <wib_jonas> the other interpretation is that only new babies can get a soul, and if there's no soul available just when a baby is at soul-getting age, then they missed their chance forever, in which case a few people, chosen at more or less random, have souls for life.
10:23:21 <wib_jonas> which reading do you support, fungot?
10:23:22 <fungot> wib_jonas: have you looked into set theory, respectively)
10:23:33 <wib_jonas> no, not deeply
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10:41:40 <esowiki> [[User talk:Polarz]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76652 * TwilightSparkle * (+442) Created page with "== Hi!! == Hello, I'm TwilightSparkle, an Esolang enthusiast. Here are some esolang recommentations for you: - [[><>]]. A fun language. - [[1+]]. My main interest. - [[MAWP]..."
10:41:56 <esowiki> [[User talk:Polarz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76653&oldid=76652 * TwilightSparkle * (+5) /* Hi!! */
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12:29:08 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76654&oldid=76649 * Stormboy876 * (+111)
12:29:25 <esowiki> [[ie]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76655 * Stormboy876 * (+1546) Created page with "'''ie''' is a [[esoteric programming language]] designed in July 2020 by [[User:Stormboy876]]. It is identical to [[brainfuck]], except that the instructions <code>></code>..."
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13:02:05 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Firethrone * New user account
13:07:42 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76656&oldid=76654 * Firethrone * (+105) /* Introductions */
13:08:24 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76657&oldid=76656 * Firethrone * (-11) /* Introductions */
13:08:43 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76658&oldid=76631 * Firethrone * (+16) /* C */
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13:16:23 <esowiki> [[CAPscript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76659 * Firethrone * (+891) Created page with ""CAPscript" is a programming language created by [[User:Firethrone]] in August 2020 cause he was bored during online classes and had nothing better to do. Its called CAPscript..."
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13:17:37 <esowiki> [[CAPscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76660&oldid=76659 * Firethrone * (+15)
13:18:16 <esowiki> [[CAPscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76661&oldid=76660 * Firethrone * (+12)
13:18:40 <esowiki> [[CAPscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76662&oldid=76661 * Firethrone * (+1)
13:18:52 <esowiki> [[CAPscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76663&oldid=76662 * Firethrone * (+0)
13:57:10 <esowiki> [[NULL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76664&oldid=72363 * LegionMammal978 * (+41) some bruteforced programs of mine
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14:42:09 <esowiki> [[SUL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76665&oldid=51037 * Douira * (+217) added bugs section
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15:22:41 <int-e> . o O ( github, what are you thinking, adding a visible reply box to every single comment )
15:24:20 <int-e> . o O ( It can be disabled by signing out. Not sure that's what they want people to do :-P )
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15:38:22 <esowiki> [[SUL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76666&oldid=76665 * Douira * (+11) added github link to version 3
15:42:21 <wib_jonas> int-e: isn't that just the fallback for missing javascript, and the javascript hides it?
15:42:37 <int-e> wib_jonas: No. I do allow github to use javascript.
15:43:04 <int-e> And it's a recent change, happened last week I think.
15:43:19 <int-e> They also made the reactions thing twice as big as before.
15:43:43 <int-e> (where big = high)
15:44:53 <int-e> (I'm probably exaggerating.)
15:47:36 <fizzie> Why is it that "bike" is kind of ambiguously either a bicycle or a motorcycle, but a "biker" is almost always a person who rides a motorcycle, and likewise a "cyclist" for a bicycle?
15:48:42 <myname> obligatory reference to casually explained
15:48:56 <myname> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EE8m8mmq1k
15:49:08 <wib_jonas> by "reaction thing", do you mean the toolbar with the single-emoticon replies under comments?
15:50:35 <wib_jonas> they are sort of required to make that big and obvious, that's one of their trademarks, making their site distinguishable. mind you, skype does sort of the same, but they don't make the single-emoticon toolbar always visible, and I think they don't have a flower bouquet among the choices
15:58:24 <int-e> it's bad enough without the extra input line. http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/waste.png
15:58:27 <int-e> wib_jonas: yes
15:58:53 <int-e> (the blue shading is by me and indicates space that I consider to be completely wasted.
15:58:56 <int-e> )
15:59:11 <myname> it is not
15:59:17 <int-e> it is to me
15:59:41 <myname> change the css and look at it, then
15:59:49 <myname> it's horrible
16:02:57 <int-e> That's the thing though. I don't *need* things to be aesthetic. I want to have as much information on the screen as possible.
16:03:30 <int-e> And I know that this goes against current UI theory.
16:03:31 <myname> too much information just hides what actually is important
16:03:43 <int-e> The *comments* are important.
16:04:19 <int-e> People don't put 1cm of whitespace between paragraphs in books either, they rely on a rather subtle indicator, indenting the first word, for separating those.
16:04:21 <myname> like, there is a reason practically every irc client has the option to wrap lines in a way that line starts of the message match
16:04:32 <myname> even more offer the ability to right-align nicknames
16:05:50 * int-e shrugs.
16:06:25 <int-e> I use bold face for nicknames and that's plenty indication to find them on the screen for me.
16:06:29 <myname> what is a good umbrella term for preconditions as well as benefits of an effect?
16:08:09 <int-e> myname: It's also worth noting that I don't have a smartphone so I'm not exposed to touch-optimized UIs (where the extra space is required because the precision of the inputs is so low). I believe that had a huge impact on this idea of wasted space.
16:08:27 <int-e> well, less exposed
16:08:55 <int-e> And I'm old, I grew up with 80x25 terminals which really had no space to waste at all.
16:08:59 <myname> the precision of touch input is actually higher than one would expect
16:09:30 <myname> i am currently in the process of writing a terminal game because i am pretty annoyed by the existing ones
16:09:35 <int-e> I know it's significantly better than the size of a finger.
16:12:31 <int-e> The main thing with touch inputs is... you hide the target as you touch it. That's a huge deal.
16:15:05 <myname> oh, i am currently using 32 rows but only 52 colums
16:15:17 <myname> maybe i should re-arrange my ui
16:16:08 <kspalaiologos> 80x25 terminal is the spice
16:16:13 <myname> 3 rows less is easy, 8 rows is touch
16:16:16 <kspalaiologos> I still have some bbs accounts
16:16:20 <myname> *tough
16:19:21 <fizzie> I'm currently using 76x37, or 76x61 if I hide the on-screen keyboard. But then again, this is one of those smartphones.
16:21:25 <myname> my default terminal size is 98x36 but it's much higher on my smartphone
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16:27:43 <fizzie> My most common terminal size is probably "half the screen" (I'm a BSP-layout-pretty-exclusively kind of person), which would be 159x92 or 159x94, depending on whether it's the screen with the extra bar on it.
16:29:46 <myname> that's huge without vertical splitting
16:31:41 <fizzie> Well, they're mostly either IRC or command prompts, so the immediately interesting bit is at the bottom, and what's higher up is just conveniently visible history.
16:34:33 <int-e> > 1080`div`13
16:34:35 <lambdabot> 83
16:35:48 <int-e> (81 is what I actually get)
16:36:20 <myname> height is easy to fill, width not so much
16:36:35 <myname> i am way more comfortable with longer terminals than with wider ones
16:37:04 <int-e> I think it's fair to say that the 80 column problem has kept me away from tiling WM.
16:37:07 <int-e> *WMs
16:38:16 <myname> what problem?
16:39:57 <int-e> the desire to have 80 character wide terminals
16:40:01 <int-e> and editors
16:40:13 <myname> like, exactly?
16:40:16 <int-e> yes.
16:40:22 <int-e> If you haven't noticed yet, my habits die hard.
16:41:17 <myname> interesting
16:42:07 <myname> my setup is basically splitting into a master are with a browser and some slaves to the right with terminals of a precise widths
16:42:22 <myname> not 80 though, that would be far to narrow for my taste
16:43:36 <int-e> I guess I could afford 102 or so.
16:44:27 <int-e> before I run into the hard constraint which is fitting three terminal windows side by side on the screen.
16:45:31 <myname> just use a font that isn't as wide :p
16:45:48 <int-e> that isn't really an option
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16:59:42 <fizzie> int-e: I'm sure some tiling window managers are sufficiently customizable to, in theory, permit you to write a layout that will make terminals 80 characters wide, and just resize other kinds of windows (or leave gaps if there are only terminals).
17:00:37 <int-e> Sure, laziness is a factor.
17:01:37 <fizzie> `xmonad-contrib` has a very simple variant of that in the XMonad.Layout.FixedColumn module, which will use a fixed multiple of the window's minimum resize dimension (which for terminals tends to be 1 character cell) for the master pane. But it's not particularly flexible.
17:01:38 <HackEso> xmonad-contrib`? No such file or directory
17:01:41 <int-e> Also I'm not unhappy with my current WM (which has been the same for more than two decades)
17:02:08 <fizzie> I was trying to remember my progression of window managers the other day, but couldn't. :/
17:02:56 <int-e> Easy. fvwm -> fvwm2. Plus some exposure to Sun's CDE.
17:03:44 <myname> my progression was gnome -> pekwm -> notion -> herbstluftwm
17:03:51 <int-e> I spent quite a bit of energy on customizing fvwm2
17:04:26 <int-e> And the main source of pain was the lack of multiple screen support for laptops, especially when giving presentations.
17:04:29 <fizzie> I think I went something like fvwm2 → fvwm95 → Enlightenment → WindowMaker → blackbox → fluxbox → evilwm → awesome → XMonad.
17:04:48 <fizzie> (CDE only for the SPARC workstations at the university.)
17:05:05 <int-e> Yeah, my CDE exposure has the same cause.
17:05:48 <fizzie> I might have gotten the boxes wrong, maybe one of those was openbox.
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17:45:07 <zzo38> int-e: You can consider adding your own CSS codes to adjust stuff on web pages. (I find such adjustment is generally unnecessary when the web page does not use CSS anyways, though)
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17:55:57 <zzo38> What font are you using in the terminal window?
17:57:57 <int-e> The 6x13 fixed font.
17:58:03 <int-e> Same as you I believe.
17:58:50 <zzo38> Yes, I use the same one
18:01:40 <fizzie> (I'm on my third cycle of swapping between bitmap and vector fonts, and have now stuck with Tamzen8x15r.bdf for a while.)
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18:15:11 <b_jonas> I've been thinking about something weird
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18:28:16 <int-e> Wait, ZZT was written by the Epic founder?
18:28:21 <int-e> Funny.
18:29:06 <zzo38> int-e: Yes, it is
18:29:17 <zzo38> written by the Epic founder
18:29:37 <zzo38> (And, it was the first game they released)
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19:23:57 <esowiki> [[User:Palaiologos]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76667&oldid=76254 * Palaiologos * (+59) MalbolgeLisp mention
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01:01:24 <esowiki> [[User:Orby]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76668&oldid=72969 * Orby * (-81)
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10:53:30 <b_jonas> Let's spread the false etimology that "barbarians" were named after the Holy Roman Emperor Frederick Barbarossa
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12:02:02 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76669&oldid=76658 * Bauripalash * (+13) /* M */ added MewMew
12:03:37 <esowiki> [[MewMew]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76670&oldid=75902 * Bauripalash * (+582) /* Examples */
12:05:43 <esowiki> [[MewMew]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76671&oldid=76670 * Bauripalash * (+162) /* Examples */
12:18:24 <esowiki> [[MewMew]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76672&oldid=76671 * Bauripalash * (+353) added language overview
12:19:24 <esowiki> [[MewMew]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76673&oldid=76672 * Bauripalash * (+23)
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14:10:00 <esowiki> [[Palace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76674&oldid=76062 * Hakerh400 * (+668) Add more examples
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15:54:04 <esowiki> [[Pikobrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76675&oldid=73022 * Hanzlu * (+107)
16:00:00 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hanzlu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76676&oldid=76474 * Hanzlu * (+74)
16:04:04 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hanzlu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76677&oldid=76676 * Hanzlu * (+37)
16:05:02 <esowiki> [[ALIMBIHNN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76678&oldid=70713 * Hanzlu * (+12)
16:07:01 <esowiki> [[3LEB]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76679&oldid=74889 * Hanzlu * (+118)
16:08:42 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hanzlu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76680&oldid=76677 * Hanzlu * (+142)
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18:40:49 <esowiki> [[Arn]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76681 * ZippyMagician * (+15928) Version 1
18:41:06 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76682&oldid=76323 * ZippyMagician * (+9) Add Arn to page
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21:17:37 <tswett[m]> "Sgeo" (https://matrix.to/#/@freenode_Sgeo:matrix.org): I think I'm gonna read Homestuck again. I'll plan to start on October 25th and then read 100 pages a week from that point on.
21:17:37 <tswett[m]> So it'll take, what, about two years?
21:18:13 <shachaf> Man, Matrix is just the worst.
21:18:32 <tswett[m]> Yeah! What did it do this time?
21:19:06 <Sgeo> Wikipedia says 8,123 pages. 8123 / 100 / 52 ~= 1.56
21:19:29 <tswett[m]> Yup, that's a fair bunch.
21:19:52 <Sgeo> 100 pages a week would probably feel a bit inconsistent though, when a page can be anything from a 13 minute animation to just an image
21:19:58 <Sgeo> idk
21:20:12 <shachaf> When people using Matrix post something on IRC it becomes decorated with all sorts of nonsense.
21:20:13 <tswett[m]> By Homestuck I actually mean all of MSPA, so add the rest of it in. :D
21:20:18 <shachaf> You can look at the IRC logs.
21:20:21 <tswett[m]> That's true. Maybe I'll go by hours instead.
21:20:29 <shachaf> Sometimes it's worse, like quoting half of the message of the person they're replying to.
21:20:41 <Sgeo> The only nonsense from Matrix I see is when I was mentioned and it gave a full path to me
21:20:42 <tswett[m]> Not just a little nonsense? Interesting.
21:20:53 <Sgeo> And then after that it's just normal
21:20:55 <Sgeo> '"Sgeo" (https://matrix.to/#/@freenode_Sgeo:matrix.org):'
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21:21:06 <Sgeo> Were you pinging me? Maybe it inserts that on a ping
21:21:12 <tswett[m]> Interesting. Bardzo interesting.
21:21:14 <tswett[m]> Yeah, I was.
21:25:32 <Sgeo> Can Matrix be used as a bouncer? >.>
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21:26:03 <Sgeo> I would switch to IRCCloud but one network I'm in prohibits it
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21:37:26 <tswett[m]> Yeah, Matrix is very much like a bouncer.
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23:44:32 <tswett[m]> I pretty much wouldn't use IRC any more if it weren't for Matrix.
23:44:51 <tswett[m]> I remember the good old days, before Discord, when IRC was where it's at :D
23:59:41 <Sgeo> When I started using Discord, I was weirded out by how centralized it is. I think I've given up on caring
23:59:49 <Sgeo> Cloud is too convenient
00:01:53 <zzo38> I will continue using IRC; Discord is no good.
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02:21:00 <kmc> I agree with zzo38
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05:31:19 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76683&oldid=76650 * Razetime * (+1647) Added Quine for MAWP
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07:12:17 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76684&oldid=76683 * Razetime * (+78) /* Quine */
07:39:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:MAWP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76685&oldid=76537 * TwilightSparkle * (+396)
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10:26:41 <esowiki> [[Aepoch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76686&oldid=66051 * Voltage2007 * (-13)
10:34:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76687&oldid=58874 * Voltage2007 * (+461)
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10:43:19 <shachaf> `? gregor
10:43:21 <HackEso> Gregor took forty cakes. He took 40 cakes. That's as many as four tens. And that's terrible.
10:50:09 <Taneb> I tried to google how to broadcast my terminal, shortened the search query, and got the cast for the films Terminal and The Terminal
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11:41:03 <shachaf> `5 w
11:41:07 <HackEso> 1/2:taneb//Taneb is not elliott, no matter whom you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, one of which is a Czech woman, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. He sometimes invents without noticing it (see: tanebventions). \ hat//hatee-hatee-hatee-hooo \ arrow//Arrows are just strong monads in the category of
11:41:11 <shachaf> `n
11:41:12 <HackEso> 2/2: profunctors. Time flies are attracted to them. \ craptimum//A craptimum is a non-optimal optimum. \ ratatouille//A ratatouille is a stuttering rodent.
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12:38:18 <esowiki> [[CAPscript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76688&oldid=76663 * IFcoltransG * (-14) Reformatted categories
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13:43:57 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kaftejiman * New user account
13:44:08 <esowiki> [[Clunk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76689&oldid=13050 * LegionMammal978 * (+2) newer link
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13:55:47 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76690&oldid=76657 * Kaftejiman * (+347) /* Introductions */
13:57:41 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76691&oldid=76669 * Kaftejiman * (+29) /* D */
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14:13:46 <esowiki> [[Dawg: Python for thugs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76692 * Kaftejiman * (+6071) Created page with "= Dawg: Python for thugs = [[File:https://github.com/kaftejiman/dawg/blob/master/dawg.png?raw=true|frame|none|alt=|caption coolDawg]] For thugs that like to code. <div id="..."
14:14:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Kaftejiman * uploaded "[[File:Dawg.png]]": cool dawg
14:15:47 <esowiki> [[Dawg: Python for thugs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76694&oldid=76692 * Kaftejiman * (-72) /* Dawg: Python for thugs */
14:17:56 <esowiki> [[Dawg: Python for thugs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76695&oldid=76694 * Kaftejiman * (+82) /* Using Dawg */
14:26:29 <esowiki> [[Dawg: Python for thugs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76696&oldid=76695 * Kaftejiman * (+517) /* Dawg: Python for thugs */
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14:32:06 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76697&oldid=76690 * Kaftejiman * (+41) /* Introductions */
14:33:02 <esowiki> [[Dawg: Python for thugs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76698&oldid=76696 * Kaftejiman * (+2) /* Dawg: Python for thugs */
14:33:17 <esowiki> [[Dawg: Python for thugs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76699&oldid=76698 * Kaftejiman * (+1) /* Dawg: Python for thugs */
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18:07:01 <esowiki> [[Spare Change]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76700&oldid=75861 * The Esolanger * (+12) /* The Commands */
18:12:18 <esowiki> [[Spare Change]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76701&oldid=76700 * The Esolanger * (+71) New heading
18:13:12 <esowiki> [[Spare Change]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76702&oldid=76701 * The Esolanger * (+1) Minor edit
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23:44:20 <ais523> Taneb: https://termcast.org/
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23:46:10 <ais523> wow, it's come along a bit since I last used it
23:46:38 <ais523> it even has an account system now
23:46:48 <ais523> it used to have some sort of rudimentary username/password system but nobody was quite sure how it worked
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01:44:17 <shachaf> Melbourne?
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07:46:37 <Taneb> @tell ais523 Thanks, termcast was what I had in mind
07:46:37 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
07:53:12 <zzo38> Some cards in Magic: the Gathering are cantrip cards that say "draw a card"; a variant is "draw a card at the beginning of the next upkeep". Another variant I can think of is to write "the active player draws a card"
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08:03:09 <Taneb> "Nominate a player to draw a card"?
08:07:06 <shachaf> "Taneb draws a card."
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09:06:52 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76703&oldid=76216 * TwilightSparkle * (+5082) I'm way too lazy to translate these by myself. So I used Google Translate & in parvas oportet video.
09:08:04 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76704&oldid=76703 * TwilightSparkle * (-6) /* ==== */
09:08:10 <Taneb> "Player must place a card face-down on the top of their deck"
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09:12:31 <myname> isn't that the opposite?
09:12:45 <Taneb> Yes
09:14:08 <myname> "place a card from the top of your deck into your hand"
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12:54:23 <esowiki> [[User:Palaiologos]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76705&oldid=76667 * Palaiologos * (+15) um8 note
13:08:17 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kekcsi * New user account
13:15:34 <esowiki> [[Seed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76706&oldid=70706 * Palaiologos * (-7) adjust a deadlink
13:16:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76707&oldid=76697 * Kekcsi * (+356) /* Introductions */
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13:27:39 <wib_jonas> `ioccclist 2020-07-25 The winners of the 27th IOCCC have been announced. Congratulations!
13:27:43 <HackEso> ioccclist 2020-07-25 The winners of the 27th IOCCC have been announced. Congratulations! : b_jonas rain2 rain1
13:27:45 <wib_jonas> I totally missed this by like two weeks
13:30:12 <wib_jonas> this is the first year when someone had four winning entries, isn't it?
13:40:46 <arseniiv> hi; interesting
14:00:25 <rain1> :O
14:00:58 <rain1> I need to enter some time
14:01:02 <rain1> I just have no idea what to do for it
14:01:25 <rain1> winning entries will be posted soon?
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14:07:40 <wib_jonas> rain1: "soon", i.e. 80% likely posted within a year
14:08:30 <Arcorann> Yusuke Endoh had four winning entries in 2015
14:08:54 <Arcorann> Page says mid-August for the winning entrries being posted
14:10:47 <wib_jonas> Arcorann: ah great, thanks, so that's not quite the first
14:14:42 <rain1> Lámatyávë (pl. lámatyáver) is a noun in Quenya which refers to phonaesthesia of the Elves. It means "sound-taste" and refers to individual pleasure in the sounds and forms of words.
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14:30:01 <kspalaiologos> I should maybe enter ioccc one day lol
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17:58:21 <zzo38> Can you use lazy evaluation to make a probability of exactly the error function?
18:04:26 <int-e> hmm, what do you mean
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18:07:36 <int-e> You can take computable reals, make them probabilistic, and then ask whether you can implement a machine that produces outputs that are distributed as N(0,1).
18:08:19 <int-e> And the answer will be positive, yes you can do that. The details will probably(!) be tedious.
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18:51:01 <myname> anybody here plays one deck dungeon?
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19:01:01 <b_jonas> int-e: and that might actually cause less problems than the typical things you want to do with computable numbers, because you won't run into a comparison problem where you have two numbers that are equal and you try to evaluate them more and more precisely to tell if the first one is less than the second
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22:48:27 <b_jonas> I wish Microsoft and the IANA together staged a coup where they announce as that they now effectively control timezone offsets in most of the non-islamic parts of the world, they declare themselves authoritive about future timezones, and politicians and local media are no longer allowed to change timezone rules without their permission, and they only give permission for rule changes announced at least
22:48:33 <b_jonas> 20 years in advance.
22:48:58 <b_jonas> They'd have to add a new time-dependent flag to the format about which timezones they claim to be ruling.
22:49:12 <b_jonas> to the format of the Olson's timezone database that is
22:51:36 <b_jonas> Maybe they'd need Google to join as well. I think they could convince everyone to believe the time of their smartphones and computers rather than whatever the politicians announce and possibly force news agencies to use.
22:52:20 <b_jonas> It might cause the usual temporary chaos with people confused about the timezone offset, but eventually the governments would give in.
22:53:28 <int-e> Realistically though, why should they take any interest in that.
22:53:45 <b_jonas> Which they?
22:53:55 <int-e> MS et al.
22:55:41 <b_jonas> For the same reason as most techies want that, because it's annoying to have to treat every fucking government's whim as an urgent security update that has to be propagated to every device, sometimes faster than normal update schedules, including devices that have no reason to be connected to anything and wouldn't normally need updates.
22:55:52 <int-e> On the server side you just use a smoothened version of UTC. And you update type zones with your monthly update for clients.
22:55:59 <b_jonas> Because we want to be able to plan future events and announce them in localtimes.
22:56:24 <int-e> It's basically a solved problem.
22:56:25 <b_jonas> Or adjust to plans by typical people who define their times in a localtime.
22:56:29 <b_jonas> It's not a solved problem.
22:57:39 <int-e> For a big tech company? I think the two things I said solve it for them, or reduce it to a nuisance.
22:58:35 <esowiki> [[Unary Except Every Zero Is Replaced with the Title of This Programming Language or, Alternately, Is Replaced with the Smallest Counter-Example to the Goldbach Conjecture. Compilers and Interpreters Only Have to Implement the Former Option]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76708&oldid=52676 * LegionMammal978 * (+1) /* Implementations */ fixed interpreter
23:00:10 <int-e> Oh great, a second order Brainfuck derivative.
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23:03:30 <Cale> b_jonas: That, but timezones are abolished
23:05:11 <b_jonas> Cale: I don't think that's a good idea, and even if you really wanted that, do that with the 20 years (or more) of notice
23:05:53 <int-e> But it is what you do right now by using UTC and smoothing over leap seconds.
23:06:32 <Cale> The worst that will happen is that some schedules will be slightly harder to express, since they will change time based on the date.
23:07:29 <esowiki> [[Unary Except Every Zero Is Replaced with the Title of This Programming Language or, Alternately, Is Replaced with the Smallest Counter-Example to the Goldbach Conjecture. Compilers and Interpreters Only Have to Implement the Former Option]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76709&oldid=76708 * LegionMammal978 * (+0) /* Implementations */ wait no I'm stupid
23:07:30 <Cale> But that's just for those people who actually give a shit about exactly where the sun is in the sky during whatever it is they're doing.
23:10:40 <int-e> The worst affected by time zones are real people (because of DST changes and having schedules tight to the resulting clock, resulting in a biannual jetlag), followed by travel companies (airlines, railways).
23:10:45 <esowiki> [[Unary Except Every Zero Is Replaced with the Title of This Programming Language or, Alternately, Is Replaced with the Smallest Counter-Example to the Goldbach Conjecture. Compilers and Interpreters Only Have to Implement the Former Option]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76710&oldid=76709 * LegionMammal978 * (-216) testing in production is fun!
23:14:19 <zzo38> I think that DST should be abolished.
23:15:08 <int-e> tight -> tied (ouch)
23:18:27 <zzo38> (Either permanently 1 hour ahead or permanently not 1 hour ahead; I would prefer the latter, but would also accept the former. I am not the only one. Even people that want to abolish DST some prefer one hour ahead and some not, though.)
23:22:11 <b_jonas> The collaboration of Google is probably not needed, only that of IANA and Microsoft.
23:22:15 <int-e> meh, early birds
23:22:42 <b_jonas> well, at least I think so. I can't be sure they won't start a fork out of it.
23:22:49 <zzo38> I suppose not everyone would use Microsoft and IANA for planning events anyways, though, and not everyone can announce changes twenty years in advance. Not everyone will use smartphones or computers either. But, CBC has a national official time signal on the radio, so you can still have that. (But, if you need accurate timekeeping then probably you will have a computer machine, too.)
23:25:08 <zzo38> But, I would want that even if you use a sundial you can get close enough (if the weather is OK, and accurate timekeeping isn't needed).
23:27:18 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Asra * New user account
23:28:36 <zzo38> Do you like sun dial?
23:29:04 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76711&oldid=76707 * Asra * (+64) /* Introductions */
23:30:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76712&oldid=76711 * Asra * (+73) /* Introductions */
23:32:58 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mattisfond * New user account
23:34:49 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * JCG * New user account
23:37:41 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76713&oldid=76712 * JCG * (+115) Added myself, John Griffin.
23:39:43 <esowiki> [[User talk:Asra]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76714 * Asra * (+14) Created page with "this is a test"
23:40:03 <esowiki> [[User talk:Asra]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76715&oldid=76714 * Asra * (+23) /* wait what */ new section
23:43:20 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76716&oldid=75353 * JCG * (+126)
23:56:30 <esowiki> [[Faces]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76717 * Asra * (+1463) Created page with "Face is a programming language that is made up of entirely faces, there are 16 faces in total and are used as commands and arguments or seperators. There is also one value int..."
23:57:13 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76718&oldid=76691 * Asra * (+12) /* F */
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23:58:00 <esowiki> [[Faces]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76719&oldid=76717 * Asra * (+0)
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07:10:01 <arseniiv> hello! Does anybody know a simplistic wiki which uses Markdown, allows math and may well be unversioned? (and maybe even no merge functionality, I plan to use it only myself). And just maybe it also generates/refreshes static HTMLs? That would be optimal. Wait, it could also add Disqus widgets to the bottom of selected pages. Now that’s complete
07:11:14 <arseniiv> I’m well afraid I’ll need to write that myself. That would be a simple and good Python ecosystem exercise but… laaazy
07:16:12 <zzo38> Maybe describe better what you are trying to make with that?
07:16:39 <zzo38> (Fossil supports Markdown, but not the other stuff you mention.)
07:22:20 <rain1> arseniiv: I use miraheze with <math> tags, prefer $ but i have a userscript to transform
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07:22:44 <rain1> I think tiddlywiki can do mathjax though, which would be nice
07:22:48 <rain1> specially for self hosting