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07:19:27 <GregorR> thematrixeatsyou: Read Talk:The Square
07:31:32 <GregorR> If I had time, I'd look at it, but I've ben ridiculously busy.
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16:13:51 <pikhq> !cat *kill . . . kill . . . kill*
16:14:08 <pikhq> EgoBot's not here. x_x
16:14:34 <GregorR-W> The bus company charged me $288 with the message "cannot contact bank"
16:16:21 <ihope> GregorR-W: did what why?
16:16:51 <GregorR-W> ihope: I was trying to buy a month pass with my debit card.
16:16:58 <GregorR-W> But as it turns out, it did charge me.
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16:29:52 <GregorR-W> Ironic how IRP is, outside of #esoteric, the most popular esoteric language :P
16:30:01 <asiekierka> Please, don't ban me and please, kick me from that channel.
16:30:15 <GregorR-W> Nobody has the rights to kick you :P
16:30:45 <asiekierka> i'm planning to do a programming language
16:31:20 <pikhq> Although I bet someone on the op list could just do a /msg chanserv op. . .
16:31:51 <pikhq> asiekierka: Yeah. . . And C has an incredibly large list of functions, but nobody calls *it* esoteric (except for Razor-X). ;)
16:31:57 <GregorR-W> pikhq: They're never active anymore
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16:32:55 <pikhq> In that case, our only hope against trolls is hoping lilo cares. :p
16:33:45 <pikhq> That portion doesn't seem incredible. . .
16:34:07 <pikhq> Anything else about it that could place it in the realms of esotericness?
16:35:40 <pikhq> Okay, that makes it sufficiently odd to merit the title "esoteric". ;)
16:35:43 <ihope> fizzie and lament can op themselves, no?
16:36:41 <pikhq> That's a whole category of languages on the EsoLangs wiki. ;)
16:36:52 <asiekierka> it's based off Windows 98 code i find months ago...
16:37:46 <asiekierka> it makes computer explode in 4 seconds.
16:38:02 <pikhq> Sounds like a good idea for a language. ;)
16:38:12 <ihope> So nobody would want to write an interpreter? :-)
16:38:58 <GregorR-W> Wow, Washington Mutual rocks ... unusual payments on my card this morning (Trimet overcharged me, bastards), and Wamu's fraud prevention department calls me 8-D
16:39:38 <pikhq> We'll patch Qemu to get it done right. >:D
16:40:58 <asiekierka> where 1000 is amount of time of loading in 1/100th of seconds.
16:41:53 <pikhq> Sounds more C-like right now. . .
16:42:43 <pikhq> It's best implemented on a computer that has a HCF opcode, it sounds like. . .
16:42:52 <pikhq> Sounds interesting.
16:51:37 <Razor-X> *Rant rant rant rant rant*.
16:52:04 <GregorR-W> Also, go look up 'esoteric' in a dictionary. C is not esoteric.
16:52:07 <Razor-X> C++ is better, not quite esoteric in my eyes.
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16:53:17 <pgimeno> C++ is just a wimpmode for C
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16:53:46 <Razor-X> And C is just wimpmode for ASM.
16:54:20 <pikhq> But it's wimpmode for a lot of ASMs.
16:54:37 <pikhq> And I'm thinking about implementation.
16:54:38 <Razor-X> Heck, ALGOL looked cleaner than C.
16:54:46 <pgimeno> just give me a PHP to lean on and I will rule the world (or something)
16:55:14 <pikhq> Quick compilation from from MASLW to C, link against libMASLW, and voila.
16:55:55 <pikhq> Sort-of like ORK in that regard: rather simple compiling.
16:56:08 <Razor-X> I think I'm gonna spend some time helping out the SCSharp project.
16:56:27 <Razor-X> I wonder where though, since I'm so bad at game programming.....
16:56:46 <pgimeno> ORK is THE structured, readable language
16:56:57 <pgimeno> too bad it's compiled to C++ ;)
16:57:14 <pikhq> I find it actually produces some fairly readable C++. . .
16:58:14 <Razor-X> Yeah, I want to try out D. But I need a project to work on.
16:58:56 <pgimeno> yeah, ecmascript rules too
16:59:06 <pgimeno> D is just a tool to build ecmascript interpreters
16:59:07 <Razor-X> D is what C should've been, minus the garbage collection.
16:59:24 <GregorR-W> No, C is (and should not have been) object oriented.
16:59:34 <GregorR-W> Erm, isn't and should not have been :)
16:59:56 <Razor-X> Well, alright. Minus the OOP too.
17:00:10 <pikhq> C can be object-oriented.
17:00:11 <Razor-X> Since I really don't use anything advanced OOP wise except a struct.
17:00:14 <pgimeno> go tell the GIMP project, the C OOP people
17:00:44 <pikhq> After all, C++ was first implemented by compiling to C, right? :p
17:01:04 * pgimeno stops bitching now, he forgot the asbestos suit
17:02:31 <pgimeno> pikhq: now seriously, yes I think so
17:07:10 <asiekierka> we are making our language slighty USEFUL.
17:08:51 <asiekierka> ... project MASYSLWIN Demo in works...
17:13:30 <ihope> I oughta make a language based on ZFC.
17:24:07 <ihope> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZFC
18:04:12 <asiekierka> latest architecture of my programming language
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18:26:43 <asiekierka> somebody is interessed to make programming language in which you can easily make easy os?
18:27:24 <lament> another one of those? :)
18:27:39 <lament> let me guess... is it called HQ9+O?
18:28:06 <lament> why would you ever want to make something like windows?
18:31:24 * ihope_ conjures up a language in which all loops are infinite
18:33:13 <asiekierka> ihope_, you can make sort of os in it?
18:33:57 <ihope_> asiekierka: well, my language is BF-based.
18:36:46 <pikhq> ihope_: Then I assume that there will be some other conditional?
18:37:22 <ihope_> pikhq: good idea. I'll add one.
18:38:31 <pikhq> ihope_: Assuming, of course, that you want a Turing complete language.
18:39:33 <ihope_> asiekierka: by the way, are you from Poland?
18:41:37 <asiekierka> set $brainfuck TO '>+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]
18:41:38 <asiekierka> <.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+.';
18:41:38 <asiekierka> . "I unloaded the mouse - unnecessary since it does it anyway, and setted some string. Now for some BrainF*ck stuff :P"
18:41:38 <asiekierka> brainfuck.interpret($brainfuck,$brainout);
18:41:38 <asiekierka> . "now to clear screen and output $brainout..."
18:41:54 <asiekierka> part of brainfuck interpret code in my language
18:42:18 <asiekierka> it prints on the screen "Hello World!" in random place in the screen.
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18:45:30 <asiekierka> brainfuck.interpret('>+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]
18:45:30 <asiekierka> <.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+.',$brainout);
18:54:51 <pgimeno> "Actually, MINIX 3 and my research generally is **NOT** about microkernels. It is about building highly reliable, self-healing, operating systems. I will consider the job finished when no manufacturer anywhere makes a PC with a reset button." - Andrew S. Tanenbaum
18:56:55 <asiekierka> who wanna help with my programming language project, join #MASysLWin!!!
19:04:25 <GregorR-W> Who wants to help asiekierka learn not to advertize obnoxiously?
19:19:36 <asiekierka> For query "Make A System Like Windoze"
19:19:36 <asiekierka> No page with this exact title exists, trying full text search.
19:19:36 <asiekierka> For more information about searching Esolang, see Searching Esolang.
19:19:36 <asiekierka> Showing below 0 results starting with #1.
19:25:10 <ihope_> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Make_a_System_Like_Windoze
19:25:39 <ihope_> Or Make_A_System_Like_Windoze, or Make_a_System_like_Windoze, depending on how you want to capitalize it.
19:26:06 <lament> asiekierka: it's spelt "Windows"
19:33:34 <pikhq> Through an interesting bug in my Brainfuck compiler, I have found an interesting Brainfuck-related language. . . One that makes no bloody sense.
19:33:57 <pikhq> A Brainfuck opcode, in this language, will be interpreted as every opcode that it is *not*.
19:34:04 <pikhq> (you can imagine what my bug was. ;))
19:34:30 <lament> kinda creates problems with loops though
19:34:41 <pikhq> No, it was chance.
19:35:01 <pikhq> Probably not Turing complete, but it does make for a nice joke.
19:37:27 <pikhq> GregorR-W: It's all your fault, BTW.
19:37:53 <pikhq> You told me how to do if y != 255 by giving me the code for if y = 255. -_-'
19:39:54 <ihope_> Wait, how does the language work?
19:39:56 <GregorR-W> I don't remember that, but I also don't remember what I had for dinner yesterday.
19:40:01 <pikhq> Of course, I may have just fucked things up considerable from what you told me. :p
19:40:22 <pikhq> ihope_: It's a joke language; it doesn't really work. ;)
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20:36:20 <pikhq> ihope_: It doesn't do a damned thing, I think.
20:41:52 <ihope_> So executing every opcode that a given BF opcode is not will do nothing?
20:43:24 <ihope_> What order should I do them in?
20:43:58 <GregorR-W> Well, half of them would cancel themselves out, but [] and ,. would be a problem.
20:44:25 <ihope_> Well, [] does something sometimes, and ,. always does something.
20:45:55 <pikhq> An example: +[.,+] would become -<>[],.+-<>],.+-<>[],+-<>[].-<>[],.+-<>],.
20:46:24 <ihope_> Well, that's an invalid program.
20:46:35 <ihope_> You'd have to use ] and [ instead of [ and ].
20:47:14 <pikhq> Now, if anyone cares to prove it Turing complete?
20:47:52 <ihope_> So how did you manage to accidentally parse BF as this, if this grammar is different from BF's?
20:49:35 <pikhq> ihope_: I managed to do if input != opcode instead of if input = opcode. . .
20:56:31 <ihope_> So how does looping work in your compiler?
21:01:06 <pikhq> It was a bloody bug. ;)
21:10:17 <ihope_> Well, what language were you using?
21:13:30 <ihope_> Writing a BF compiler in BF?
21:14:55 <ihope_> That'd explain why you didn't treat loops as being instructions themselves...
21:21:41 <smokecfh> i wanted to reverse a brainfuck program to make it do something else, but i got problems with mismatched ]['s .. has anyone tried somethnig similar before?
21:21:59 <smokecfh> i noticed that some bf interpreters don't mind the mismatched braces
21:22:50 <GregorR-W> smokecfh: But the result is undefined at best.
21:23:04 <ihope_> smokecfh: well, you could just swap [ and ] when reversing.
21:23:30 <ihope_> Or you could swap *every* instruction with its complement when reversing.
21:23:48 <smokecfh> +[code executed in reverse]...[normal code]+
21:34:01 <ihope_> Stuff like >[-]>+ would become -<[+]< :-)
21:57:57 * ihope_ attempts to memorize ASCII, starting with NUL SOH STX ETX EOT ENQ ACK
22:00:47 <ihope_> Then again, flash cards would be better.
22:02:27 <pikhq> Then you should remember [[Brainfuck constants]]. ;)
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22:12:42 <ihope_> Nah, I'd rather obsolete it.
22:18:03 * ihope_ begins the obsoletion thing
22:19:46 * ihope_ decides to do it tomorrow instead
22:27:47 <ihope_> I'd rather obsolete the wiki page of BF constants.
22:30:03 <Razor-X> I wish I could play as good as this stupid MIDI :(.
22:31:09 <ihope_> Well, there's quite a lot to BF constants.
22:31:47 <Razor-X> The Brain and the Fsck, anything else?
22:32:24 <pikhq> It contains brainfuck code for getting any number from 1-255.
22:32:41 <Razor-X> Good code, or like a bunch of +'s in a row?
22:32:55 <pikhq> Seems like good code to me.
22:33:05 <pikhq> It's on the Esolangs wiki, look at it.
22:33:08 <Razor-X> Alright. So then it's pretty bad.
22:33:57 <ihope_> Would that be the past tense form of "to soyve"?
22:35:37 <Razor-X> Some of them are pretty eh-ish.
22:36:42 <Razor-X> +++++++++++++++[>++++++++++++++++<-]>+++++++++++++++
22:36:59 <Razor-X> You can easily shorten that.
22:37:44 <Razor-X> Well, I'm working on something less useless to me.
22:40:09 <ihope_> Well, there's ++++[->++++<]>[-<++++>]<[->++++<], right?
22:40:49 <ihope_> Yep, looks like it works.
22:40:59 <Razor-X> If we had EgoBot, we could TEST it.
22:41:08 <ihope_> http://www.iwriteiam.nl/Ha_bf_online.html
22:41:22 <ihope_> Silly Razor-X. EgoBots are for kids.
22:43:36 <ihope_> I notice that the BF-to-C compiler on that page will sometimes zero a value, then add to it.
22:43:50 <ihope_> Like with 256 program.
22:44:06 <ihope_> s/256 program/that 256 program/
22:45:54 <Razor-X> Isn't that the 255 program?
22:46:39 <ihope_> ++++[->++++<]>[-<++++>]<[->++++<] is a 256 program.
22:46:53 <ihope_> Except that memory cells can't hold 256, or something, so...
22:47:22 <Razor-X> G'job! *makes thumbs up sign*.
22:48:27 * ihope_ pretends to fix it, while really doing something unrelated
22:48:58 <GregorR-W> If you had an 8.005624549193878-bit CPU, you could go up to 256.
22:50:17 <ihope_> No, that would only get you to 257.99999999999983.
22:51:00 <ihope_> 8.005624549193879 bits would work, though.
22:51:27 <ihope_> ...And I meant that would only go to 255.99999999999983.
22:51:57 <pikhq> On a 1-bit, base-256 CPU, you could go up to 256.
22:52:22 <fizzie> Would you call that a "bit" anyway?
22:52:26 <GregorR-W> In the same way that you can't count to 10 with one digit of base-10.
22:52:50 <ihope_> I'd just call it a 257it CPU.
22:52:51 <pikhq> Perhaps a. . . digit?
22:57:07 * ihope_ beats the best two-cell non-wrapping 255 on the wiki by one character
22:58:12 <ihope_> The thinger: +++[->+++<]>[-<+++>]<[->+++<]>[-<+++>]<++++++++++++
23:00:45 <ihope_> I notice, though, that the one on the Wiki has the side-effect of moving right by one cell.
23:16:27 <ihope_> Argh, this edit isn't going through.
23:25:59 <Razor-X> See. bF costants is unoptimized.
23:26:51 <pikhq> Get some genetic algorithms running to optimise it. ;)
23:27:19 <Razor-X> Woaha, my trackball works like magic!
23:29:24 * ihope_ goes ARGH bang bang bang
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00:24:40 <ihope_> Can anyone else edit the Wiki?
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07:35:50 <Razor-X> In what sense do you mean ``up'' ? ``up'' is a sensation created by gravity.
07:35:59 <Razor-X> If you mean in relation to Earth's gravity, the ceiling.
07:36:32 <RodgerTheGreat> I was using a colloquialism to inquire as to the current topic of discussion.
07:36:57 <Razor-X> Well, as I hope you can see, the current topic of discussion is `` ......... '' .
07:36:59 <Arrogant> I think Razor-X was proclaiming himself to be a ghost
07:37:09 <Razor-X> I hope you have some nice comments to add to the discussion.
07:37:15 <Arrogant> You know I am going to forget that every time
07:37:28 <Razor-X> It's FreeNode, it's alright.
07:41:26 <Arrogant> So do either of you write esoteric languages, or do you write IN esoteric languages?
07:41:57 <RodgerTheGreat> a little of both. I find them interesting and educational, and I've taken a stab at making one of my own.
07:42:44 <Razor-X> I haven't gotten a good idea for an Esolang meself.
07:42:57 <Razor-X> I write in Esolangs, and if an idea strikes me I patch Glass.
07:43:13 <RodgerTheGreat> my language was register-based. It was essentially a VM in which all instructions had to do with moving values between registers and adding registers together to perform operations.
07:43:26 <Razor-X> Have you seen the MOVE operations?
07:43:47 <Razor-X> I had an idea for an OISC processor, but the pipeline was the difficulty.
07:44:19 <Arrogant> I've written two languages based on stack operations and scope manipulation
07:44:25 <Razor-X> I saw a paper on an experimental Sun pipeline that looked interesting, but I need more Verilog examples to write something sufficient.
07:44:39 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: Make one on an FPGA.
07:45:25 <Arrogant> http://www.iolanguage.com/paste/p/b5501b9d5.html
07:45:38 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm pretty interested in the C-one platform- it has two FPGA's in addition to a conventional CPU.
07:45:42 <Arrogant> You could implement object-orientation and a couple other things in it if you wanted to
07:45:49 <Arrogant> But I broke the interpreter I wrote :}
07:46:09 <Razor-X> I can understand the theory of the processor, but I need a few more Verilog examples before I can comfortably code a Verilog processor.
07:46:31 <Razor-X> If you want I can try and cobble a MOVE processor.
07:46:44 <Arrogant> RodgerTheGreat, started as a BF superset and evolved to a completely different thing
07:47:37 <RodgerTheGreat> I think DoubleF*ck is one of the most interesting BF variants I've seen.
07:48:03 <Razor-X> BF is the best it gets, IMO.
07:48:29 <Razor-X> BF is really a work of art. You can obfuscate it into the next dimension-and-a-half, but BF is art in and of itself.
07:48:58 <Razor-X> And EQBF (Extended Quantum BrainFsck) based on a discussion about Quantum-completeness.
07:49:22 <Razor-X> Apply a Hadamard gate on the qubit, or apply a Controlled-V gate on two qubits.
07:49:31 <Arrogant> http://www.iolanguage.com/paste/p/b9086aaa7.html
07:50:11 <Razor-X> Then you have > and < (forward and backward a qubit) and the loop constructors. By default qubits are 1, and loops terminate only if the qubit is 0.
07:51:05 <RodgerTheGreat> sounds a bit more like a turing machine than conventional BF.
07:51:24 <Razor-X> There's nothing Turing-like about a Hadamard gate :P.
07:53:26 <RodgerTheGreat> I've found that now that I know BF, writing an interpreter seems to be the first thing I attempt with any new language I learn.
07:54:42 <RodgerTheGreat> it frightens me a little that whenever I think about cryptography, it's in terms of BF.
07:54:58 <Razor-X> I need to write a BF interpreter in INTERCAL still.
07:55:32 <Razor-X> I've just been lazy is why I haven't done it.
07:55:47 <Razor-X> But I got the theory done, because I got it to detect `+'.
07:57:38 <Razor-X> There are very few languages as beautiful as BF.
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07:57:49 <RodgerTheGreat> since the cryptanalysis of malbolge and creation of a few nontrivial programs, I've toyed with the idea of a BF interpreter. I'm not sure how I'd go about synthesizing math, though.
07:57:52 <Razor-X> Glass is debatably better.
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08:00:30 <Razor-X> BF is an excellent exercise into programming for complete newcomers to programming, IMO.
08:01:15 <Arrogant> Especially if you want to scare them away.
08:01:29 <Razor-X> You're telling me C is easier?
08:01:58 <RodgerTheGreat> I think it does a good job of getting people to think about what the computer really has to do to preform mathematical operations.
08:02:30 <Razor-X> Many people who first start programming, especially those with HTML (ugggh) experience, expect some sort of GUI-cum-markup-language.
08:03:00 <RodgerTheGreat> it might be a bit traumatic for newbies, but I think after a bit of BASIC or the like, it'd be a great second language.
08:03:27 <RodgerTheGreat> It would be interesting to see how starting with BF affected people's learning experiences.
08:03:56 <asiekierka> RodgerTheGreat joined MakeASystemLikeWindoze team!
08:04:18 <Razor-X> What is MASLW's syntax even based on?
08:04:37 <asiekierka> i can send you LATEST architecture....
08:05:02 <Razor-X> But... what architecture is built using Pascal?
08:05:23 <Razor-X> What architecture... is built using a non-HDL language?
08:08:41 <RodgerTheGreat> what kinda localtimes do you people have? I'm battling insomnia here at 3am.
08:11:26 <RodgerTheGreat> I'd assume razor's is in the 5-9pm range if she's eating dinner.
08:17:51 <RodgerTheGreat> it occurs to me that I haven't properly introduced myself. I am RodgerTheGreat- pixel artist, Java coder, mac user and esoteric programming enthusiast. I can usually be found hanging out in the #Shadowarts think-tank.
08:19:29 <RodgerTheGreat> my website, incidentally, is at http://rodger.shadowarts.org
08:26:23 <asiekierka> created by 9-year old kid which dreams about own OS.
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09:14:35 <Arrogant> I cannot wait to get my raptor bandito t-shirts
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09:27:18 <Razor-X> I don't know the ops here, nor do I really care.
09:27:50 <Razor-X> If someone wants to op me, they'll magically drop +o over my head.
09:32:27 <fizzie> freenode doesn't seem to be very big on regular +o's either, what with that ChanServ thing sitting there.
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13:04:39 <Keymaker> (referring to logs) yeah, brainfuck is definitely more than just an esolang. it's a perfect programming language in my opinion
13:09:34 <Keymaker> and great, i've forgot what my current bf program was..
14:52:01 <ihope> There's no "plain imperative language", eh?
14:52:27 <ihope> I mean, lambda calculus is a "plain functional language", so why no "plain imperative language"?
15:14:32 <Keymaker> any progress on the competition?
15:27:19 <Razor-X> We need more committee members.
15:29:22 <ihope> The first competition in the world where more people wanted to be in the competition than on the committee.
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16:21:51 <Keymaker> finally got around re-writing it (and making it actually work properly :D): http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/thue/kquine.t
16:22:55 <Keymaker> should that print something egobot help?
16:29:05 -!- EgoBot has joined.
16:29:10 <ihope> No vuelvan a rotarlo... something like that.
16:29:51 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
16:29:53 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
16:30:42 <Keymaker> damn, it doesn't have a thue interpreter :}
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17:41:00 <lament> thue is kinda useless for irc
17:41:11 <lament> can't write smart one-liners in it
17:41:19 <ihope> Oh yeah, it'd have to be 3.
17:41:28 <ihope> So f(x) = 3^x mod 4.
17:45:56 <ihope> |0000> -> |0001>; |0100> -> |0111>; |1000> -> |1001>; |1100> -> |1111>. That means that we start with "%>%>>%!!%<<&%!!%&<", I think.
17:46:18 <ihope> !qbf %>%>>%!!%<<&%!!%&<.>.>.>.
17:46:21 <EgoBot> Traceback (most recent call last):
17:46:47 <lament> attock, I wonder how fast it digs...
17:46:48 <lament> 09:28 <lament> ruskie: fucking heavy though
17:46:48 <lament> 09:29 <lament> ruskie: did you ascend?
17:46:48 <lament> 09:29 <ruskie> lament, yest yup
17:47:03 <lament> i have no idea why that was in my paste buffer
17:47:06 <ihope> !qbf %>%>>%!!%<<&%!!%&<.>.>.>.
17:47:09 <EgoBot> Traceback (most recent call last):
17:47:10 <lament> i also had no idea that a right-click pastes
17:47:16 <lament> !qbf %>%>>%!!%<<&%!!%&<.>.>.>.
17:47:19 <EgoBot> Traceback (most recent call last):
17:47:53 <lament> ihope: you can't use ! before "creating" the next qubit by doing ><
17:47:59 <lament> unless it's already created
17:48:19 <ihope> !qbf %>%>>%><!!%<<&%!!%&<.>.>.>.
17:48:31 <lament> !qbf %>%>>%><!!%<<&%!!%&<.>.>.>.
17:48:59 <ihope> It should output 0001, 0111, 1001, or 1111.
17:49:17 <lament> !qbf %>%>>%><!!%<<&%!!%&<.>.>.>.
17:49:21 <lament> !qbf %>%>>%><!!%<<&%!!%&<.>.>.>.
17:49:22 <lament> !qbf %>%>>%><!!%<<&%!!%&<.>.>.>.
17:49:22 <lament> !qbf %>%>>%><!!%<<&%!!%&<.>.>.>.
17:49:51 <ihope> Apparently it's outputting 0010, 1010, 1100, or... something else?
17:49:56 <ihope> !qbf %>%>>%><!!%<<&%!!%&<.>.>.>.
17:49:57 <lament> the lats digit is always 0
17:50:04 <lament> the last digit is always 1 in your description
17:51:05 <ihope> It's ABCD, where A and B are random, C is B, and D is 1.
17:51:37 <ihope> Oh, right, they were initialized to 1.
17:58:23 <ihope> Well, so that's solving for r in a^r mod N = 1. Is that a discrete logarithm?
18:01:58 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
18:02:16 -!- RodgerTheGreat has left (?).
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19:24:43 <GregorR-W> Must ... kill ... people in cube next to mine ...
19:25:14 <pikhq> Poor guy. . . Intel's cube farm is where you reside. . .
19:25:47 * pikhq gives you a blast furnace powered by a couple of P4s
19:25:54 <lament> GregorR-W: tell them to stop having sex at work
19:26:30 <GregorR-W> pikhq: I don't want their death to be that quick.
19:26:44 <pikhq> The blast furnace is for heating up the branding irons.
19:26:56 <GregorR-W> I don't want to melt the branding irons :P
19:27:18 <pikhq> The chips are underclocked.
19:30:17 <pikhq> If you need to melt stuff, just hit the button labeled "Pi".
19:30:31 <pikhq> Starts a few threads calculating Pi. ;)
19:31:32 <GregorR-W> I hope this is all contained in depleted uranium 8-X
20:00:17 -!- asiekierka has quit ("Yourbot IRC Bot 4.5> You can get this bot at http://www.ybbot.com/.").
20:57:03 <GregorR-W> They're just idiots who talk incredibly loud about the stupidest subjects.
20:57:22 <GregorR-W> It's like being next to the girl's bathroom in a middle school.
21:18:50 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
21:31:42 <lament> GregorR-W: i'm sure you know ALL about that.
21:40:39 <ihope_> RodgerTheGreat: you know that if you mention a language idea in here, I'll steal it and make it into my own language, right? ;-)
21:41:34 <RodgerTheGreat> here, let me show you something I just put together...
21:41:39 -!- BrainMachine has joined.
21:41:54 <GregorR-W> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"I'm better than BrainMachine."(_o)o.?]}
21:41:57 <EgoBot> I'm better than BrainMachine.
21:42:28 <RodgerTheGreat> well, your semantics may be more complex, but I can do multiline I/O
21:42:36 <pikhq> !daemon cat +[,.>+]
21:42:41 <pikhq> !daemon cat bf +[,.>+]
21:42:47 <GregorR-W> RodgerTheGreat: I can do multiline I/O
21:43:02 <RodgerTheGreat> the brainmachine properly handles newlines, and has an execution cutoff to halt after a specific number of cycles.
21:43:04 <ihope_> pikhq: why move right, instead of zeroing?
21:43:13 <pikhq> ihope_: In hopes of crashing it. :p
21:43:13 <EgoBot> 1 pikhq: daemon cat bf
21:43:24 <GregorR-W> RodgerTheGreat: EgoBot used to have a cutoff, I removed it when I added daemons :P
21:43:27 <pikhq> !in 1 This/n is/nmulti-line/ninput.
21:43:39 <pikhq> !i 1 This/n is/nmulti-line/ninput.
21:43:56 <pikhq> !i 1 This\n is\nmulti-line\ninput.\n
21:44:00 <EgoBot> This/n is/nmulti-line/ninput.This
21:44:18 <GregorR-W> (It didn't screw up, it just didn't flood)
21:44:37 <pikhq> !i 1 This is going straight to my private messages.\n
21:44:42 <EgoBot> This is going straight to my private messages.
21:44:42 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I didn't mean for my bot to be groundbreaking- I just thought it would be a fun way to code a frontend for my interpreter.
21:44:58 <pikhq> Call me up when you right it in Brainfuck.
21:45:08 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: you still haven't shown how it works.
21:45:53 <lament> BrainMachine: do some brainfuck
21:46:28 <RodgerTheGreat> if I specified a string afterwards, I could set a new program.
21:46:40 <pikhq> bfprog [<]++++++++++.
21:49:24 <lament> bfprog +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
21:49:26 <RodgerTheGreat> not exactly nice, but this is why I set a cutoff in the first place.
21:49:33 <lament> bfprog +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[.]
21:49:36 <BrainMachine> ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
21:49:38 <pikhq> Now, to compare with EgoBot.
21:49:53 <pikhq> !bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[.]
21:50:30 <pikhq> It will never quit.
21:50:36 <EgoBot> /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
21:50:55 <pikhq> It sent the other half to me. Why does it do that?!?
21:51:02 <pikhq> GregorR-W: I think your IRC handling code is broken.
21:51:14 <GregorR-W> That's not broken, it's called anti-flooding.
21:51:50 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm working on adding more languages to BrainMachine- I'll probably do mostly BF variants with it.
21:52:22 <RodgerTheGreat> as soon as I learn threads in Java, I'll take a crack at doing a daemon system like egobot has- quite an elegant solution.
21:52:48 <pikhq> GregorR-W: Then why does it send stuff to me, instead of just not sending everything?
21:52:59 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Only if it's under a FSF-approved license.
21:53:09 <GregorR-W> pikhq: I don't care about flooding people, only flooding the chan :P
21:53:10 <pikhq> !cat Non-free software is bad for you.
21:53:14 <EgoBot> Non-free software is bad for you.
21:53:22 <GregorR-W> RodgerTheGreat: I was mildly interested right up until you said "Java"
21:53:30 <RodgerTheGreat> my source is under no license. I don't care what anyone does with it.
21:53:43 <GregorR-W> RodgerTheGreat: No license == nobody can do anything with it.
21:53:43 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: So, it's under the public domain?
21:54:06 <pikhq> Public domain == no copyright.
21:54:43 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Then declare it to be under the public domain specifically. Otherwise, it will be interpreted as being under full copyright protection.
21:54:55 <pikhq> Which, of course, means that I can't do a damned thing to it.
21:59:14 <RodgerTheGreat> here's the IRC bot wrapper code: http://www.rafb.net./paste/results/AjlL8x14.html
21:59:24 <RodgerTheGreat> and this is the interpreter: http://www.rafb.net./paste/results/aA39oq19.html
22:00:46 <RodgerTheGreat> as you can see, I decided to go with the pretty much standard 30,000 cell model, 0-255 per cell.
22:01:16 <lament> what lanugage is that?
22:02:00 <lament> not esoteric enough :)
22:02:21 <RodgerTheGreat> I suppose if I coded it in LISP it would be acceptable...
22:02:47 <pikhq> Not until there is an esoteric Lisp.
22:04:13 <RodgerTheGreat> LISP itself is a pretty funky language, though. Have you ever played with it?
22:04:37 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
22:05:01 <RodgerTheGreat> I would honestly try coding this bot in BF if someone gave me a BF interpreter with network support.
22:05:21 <RodgerTheGreat> (piping standard I/o through netcat is NOT network support)
22:05:50 <ihope_> Why isn't it network support, eh?
22:06:33 <RodgerTheGreat> is there an interpreter for 1337 that really handles sockets? Last time I checked the reference interpreter left those out.
22:12:14 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
22:12:16 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
22:12:29 <pikhq> We need a l33t implementation for EgoBot. :p
22:13:43 <GregorR-W> The core is C++, it can use an interpreter in any sane language.
22:14:42 <pikhq> !bf 7+ 3[ 2, 1. 7+ 4] 3[ A Brainfuck/l33t polyglot. 4]
22:14:57 <ihope_> Is Haskell considered sane?
22:15:11 <GregorR-W> ihope_: What's the compiler called? `which` will tell me whether it's sane :P
22:16:08 <pikhq> Argh. Mine is t3h borken. Whee.
22:17:23 <RodgerTheGreat> well, a 1337 interpreter sounds like it would be a useful addition, especially if it supported both self-modification and sockets.
22:18:25 <GregorR-W> No f***ing way I'm adding something to EgoBot with socket support.
22:19:01 <GregorR-W> All languages supported are capable of no I/O other than stdin/stdout.
22:19:31 <RodgerTheGreat> that neuters a great number of interesting capabilities.
22:21:19 <RodgerTheGreat> there's something attractive about a bot that you could conceivably use to write other bots...
22:21:45 <RodgerTheGreat> kinda like bootstrapping... I dub this concept "Botstrapping".
22:29:31 <GregorR-W> The problem with such bots: You can program them to help you DDoS.
22:29:37 <GregorR-W> And that's the least of your worries.
22:29:53 <RodgerTheGreat> well, naturally- this is 1337 we're talking about, here...
22:30:00 <pikhq> !cat This\nbot\nis\ngoing\nto\help
22:30:23 <pikhq> !daemon cat +[,.+]
22:30:27 <pikhq> !cat This\nbot\nis\ngoing\nto\help
22:30:36 <pikhq> !daemon cat bf+[,.+]
22:30:40 <pikhq> !daemon cat bf+[,.+]
22:30:43 <pikhq> !cat This\nbot\nis\ngoing\nto\help
22:31:03 * pikhq needs to discover this "brain" thing
22:35:20 <pikhq> !daemon remote bf +[,.+]
22:35:26 <pikhq> !remote This is *my* remote.
22:41:11 * pikhq got so bored that he wrote "99 bottles of beer" without a single while loop. . .
22:41:39 <pikhq> Wait. This is #esoteric.
22:41:52 <pikhq> Shit; I should have coded in an esoteric language instead.
22:42:05 <pikhq> Did it with a simple recursive algorithm.
22:42:19 <RodgerTheGreat> if you coded it in SMITH, I don't think you would've needed a loop in the first place.
22:45:01 <RodgerTheGreat> I made an attempt at making a "BF-controlled tank combat game" once- it was called "BotF*ck"
22:45:13 <GregorR-W> pikhq: Stack overthrow bottles on the wall, stack overflow bottles of beer ...
22:45:38 <pikhq> GregorR-W: It's only 99 calls. Tcl takes quite a bit more to overflow.
22:46:00 <RodgerTheGreat> .. take one down, pass it around, illegal exception of beer on the wall...
22:46:36 <pikhq> Meh. If I did it in Lisp, then I wouldn't have to worry.
22:47:35 <pikhq> Hell, maybe Tcl does that.
22:51:15 <pikhq> No, Tcl doesn't. :/
22:52:32 <pikhq> It ends up using the C stack. :/
22:53:47 <RodgerTheGreat> this is a pretty cool BF compiler I found a while ago: http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=5060
22:56:04 <RodgerTheGreat> it's kinda too bad it isn't an optimizing compiler, though- pretty much dooms it to being a curiosity rather than a powerful tool.
23:06:28 <pikhq> Mmm. Found a Tcl package which allows for, among other things, tail call optimisation.
23:29:08 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:38:49 -!- AndrewNP has joined.
23:49:26 <AndrewNP> Hi guys. Um, I was out the past couple days and... I'm too lazy to review the logs. What's been up?
23:50:08 <lament> a bunch of people were killed
23:51:40 <AndrewNP> How unfortunate. So who inherits the wiki?
23:54:23 <AndrewNP> On the plus side, this probably reduces the pressure on you to finish implementing QBF. No one left to impress. ;)
23:54:58 <AndrewNP> Or... very few, anyway. How many survivors *are* there?
23:55:13 <EgoBot> |00> 0.00 |10> 0.00 |01> 1.00 |11> 0.00
23:55:53 <AndrewNP> Oh. Holy crap. Good for you! :)
23:56:17 <GregorR-W> And I made EQBF (a perhaps quantum-complete variant), but everybody hates it.
23:56:55 <lament> that's just cause we hate you
23:57:03 <AndrewNP> Eh, I think I saw some paper saying that ihope's QBF is complete -- though I don't know how one would prove it.
23:57:32 <GregorR-W> AndrewNP: It can't be used to produce any quantum state.
23:57:40 <GregorR-W> It's certainly Turing-complete, but it's not quantum-complete.
23:58:28 <AndrewNP> I know what I mean. I was looking up the "controlled-V," and I found some citation saying that and Hadamard are a q-complete set.
23:59:39 <lament> AndrewNP: But you cannot produce any quantum state using them
23:59:57 <lament> AndrewNP: perhaps i misunderstand what 'quantum-complete' means.
00:00:40 <AndrewNP> Well, theoretically, a quantum-complete set of gates SHOULD be able to produce any valid quantum state. I think.
00:00:54 <AndrewNP> Here: http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:ntYm_eMQ0BAJ:citeseer.ist.psu.edu/context/401133/0+hadamard+%22controlled+v%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=8
00:01:08 <AndrewNP> Sorry, it's so long. I just wanted the Google version with the words highlighted.
00:02:25 <GregorR-W> "The two gates form a nite universal set of gates networks containing only a nite number of these gates can approximate any unitary .... "
00:02:29 <lament> AndrewNP: qbf can't produce any quantum state
00:02:59 <AndrewNP> I think that's supposed to be "finite." And "unitary MATRIX" -- the mathematical representation of a quantum gate.
00:03:35 <lament> How do you represent an arbitrary rotation matrix with hadamard and cv?
00:04:15 <GregorR-W> Why did you just kill some daemon?
00:04:36 <AndrewNP> Because I thought it was a QBF program that's having issues.
00:04:48 <AndrewNP> Or do I have to use # to get the quantum state?
00:04:58 <lament> GregorR-W: maybe you should put them on !ps
00:05:02 <lament> GregorR-W: with some descriptive name?
00:05:16 <lament> AndrewNP: you could use , and ., too
00:05:16 <GregorR-W> lament: They're on "!ps d". I didn't want to clutter the normal !ps with daemons.
00:05:39 <EgoBot> |00> 0.25 |10> 0.25 |01> 0.25 |11> 0.25
00:05:48 <pikhq> !cat Foobar barFoo
00:06:13 <EgoBot> |00> 0.25 |10> 0.25 |01> 0.25 |11> 0.25
00:07:35 <ihope_> Why do people even bother with saying stuff like "f*ck"? They might as well be listing "fack, feck, fick, fock, fuck, fyck", eh?
00:08:13 <AndrewNP> No... that's f?ck. Or f[a-z]ck, if you prefer.
00:09:17 <EgoBot> 1 |00> 0.00 |10> 0.00 |01> 0.50 |11> 0.50
00:09:29 <pikhq> A few things that follow f*ck:
00:09:54 <pikhq> fuck you mother fuckin' fuckers! Fuck
00:10:05 <EgoBot> |0000> 0.00 |1000> 0.00 |0100> 0.00 |1100> 0.00 |0010> 0.00 |1010> 0.00 |0110> 0.00 |1110> 0.00 |0001> 0.00 |1001> 0.00 |0101> 0.00 |1101> 0.00 |0011> 0.00 |1011> 0.00 |0111> 0.00 |1111> 1.00
00:10:07 <EgoBot> 0 |00> 0.00 |10> 1.00 |01> 0.00 |11> 0.00
00:10:19 <EgoBot> 0 |00> 0.25 |10> 0.25 |01> 0.25 |11> 0.25
00:10:26 <ihope_> Don't get too angry, now...
00:10:33 <EgoBot> 1 |00> 0.25 |10> 0.25 |01> 0.25 |11> 0.25
00:10:40 <pikhq> !qbf Let's see how it handles Brainfuck code +[,.+]
00:11:10 <pikhq> It's still running?!?
00:11:59 <ihope_> It's probably waiting for input.
00:12:17 <pikhq> I would think that it would have ended up skipping over that loop.
00:12:32 <ihope_> Nope. Everything starts at 1.
00:12:56 <pikhq> Jeeze; it actually was valid QBF code. x_x
00:13:17 <ihope_> Everything with backets that match correctly is valid, eh?
00:13:24 <ihope_> !daemon qcat qbf [,.[%]%!!%]
00:13:32 * pikhq , as you can tell, threw away his brain a while ago.
00:13:33 <EgoBot> Please enter 1 or 0: Traceback (most recent call last):
00:13:59 <EgoBot> 1 GregorR-W: daemon cat bf
00:15:05 <GregorR-W> Stop messing with my bf proggies you jerks :P
00:18:13 <GregorR-W> !daemon EgoBot bf8 +[.++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++>+++<<<-]>-.++.>----.<++++++.++++++.-.>>-.[-]<[-]<[-]<[-]+>+[>,[>+>+<<-]>>---------->+<[>-<[-]]>[<<<<->>>>.-]<[-]<.[-]<<]<]
00:20:15 <pikhq> !EgoBot is finally able to have people do /me to me.
00:20:15 <GregorR-W> !EgoBot is teh kingz0r o' teh bizzots.
00:20:17 * EgoBot is finally able to have people do /me to me.
00:20:19 * EgoBot is teh kingz0r o' teh bizzots.
00:20:56 <AndrewNP> !EgoBot turns against its masters.
00:20:59 * EgoBot turns against its masters.
00:21:10 <GregorR-W> !EgoBot only has one master, but anyway.
00:21:13 <pikhq> !ctcp #esoteric ACTION stabs EgoBot
00:21:13 * EgoBot only has one master, but anyway.
00:21:50 <pikhq> GregorR-W: I was just playing around with my IRC client. . .
00:21:56 * pikhq has no idea why, but. . .
00:22:24 <GregorR-W> ===CTCP errmsg reply “unknown CTCP: CTCP IS TEH WHOOTZIIIIIY” from clog
00:22:41 <GregorR-W> /ctcp #esoteric CTCP IS TEH WHOOTZIIIIIY
00:23:01 <GregorR-W> I forgot no spaces are allowed in the command name :P
00:23:25 <pikhq> 17:22 [freenode] CTCP ERRMSG reply from clog: unknown CTCP: ERROR I want an error message!
00:25:22 * ihope_ does Alt+F4 and clicks "no"
00:31:32 <AndrewNP> Dag nab it. I'm not finding a proof that ihope's set is universal. At least, not one that makes sense.
00:31:51 <EgoBot> |00> 0.00 |10> 0.00 |01> 0.50 |11> 0.50
00:32:15 <EgoBot> |00> 0.25 |10> 0.25 |01> 0.25 |11> 0.25
00:32:44 * pikhq does Alt+F4 and is switched to the fourth virtual desktop on his Ratpoison setup.
00:33:35 <EgoBot> |00> 0.25 |10> 0.25 |01> 0.25 |11> 0.25
00:33:41 <EgoBot> |00> 0.00 |10> 0.50 |01> 0.50 |11> 0.00
00:33:52 <ihope_> Just plain F4 here would take me to the fourth ChatZilla tab.
00:34:29 <lament> AndrewNP: just make those probabilities be something other than boring 0.5 0.25 0.12
00:34:40 <lament> AndrewNP: make them 2/3 and 1/3 !
00:36:17 <AndrewNP> Actually, that's probably the trick. To achieve a probability precision of (1/2)^n, you have to use n qubits, right?
00:36:37 <AndrewNP> So you can get arbitrarily close to 1/3 or 2/3 just by upping the size of the register.
00:37:03 <EgoBot> |00> 0.00 |10> 0.00 |01> 0.50 |11> 0.50
00:37:24 <AndrewNP> So you can't get EXACTLY there, but it's no worse than with a 1-radian Deutsch gate, which claims to be universal.
00:37:33 <EgoBot> |00> 0.00 |10> 0.00 |01> 0.50 |11> 0.50
00:37:51 <EgoBot> |00> 0.00 |10> 0.00 |01> 0.00 |11> 1.00
00:38:57 <pikhq> !EgoBot is being abused by you qubit maniacs
00:38:59 * EgoBot is being abused by you qubit maniacs
00:39:49 <ihope_> Um, it doesn't really make sense to use the first and second person pronouns in /me...
00:40:00 <ihope_> Second person, maybe, but not first.
00:40:10 <pikhq> !EgoBot kisses AndrewNP's ass
00:41:12 * AndrewNP uses the Jedi mind trick on EgoBot.
00:41:51 <pikhq> !EgoBot shoves a bottle rocket up AndrewNP's ass and lights it
00:41:55 * EgoBot shoves a bottle rocket up AndrewNP's ass and lights it
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00:59:07 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm thinking about writing a DoubleFuck implementation- are ^ v equivalent to <> and / \ equivalent to +-, or am I mixed up?
01:08:52 <RodgerTheGreat> there's a second complete set of instructions- ^v/\:;{}
01:09:26 <RodgerTheGreat> the only thing I can find in wikipedia or esolang is this: "Doublefuck has an additional array and eight additional instructions which perform brainfuck-identical operations on the second array. They are, in order: "^", "v", "/", "\", ":", ";", "{", and "}"."
01:09:52 <ihope_> There's a Wikipedia article on it?
01:09:53 <RodgerTheGreat> it's frustrating, because I think it's a really interesting variant.
01:12:33 <RodgerTheGreat> I can't find *any* example programs taking advantage of it. I could easily write some tests, but it seems like not many people have heard of this language.
01:15:00 <GregorR-W> It's a pretty lame extension to BF is all :P
01:16:23 <RodgerTheGreat> I think it's simpler than most languages, but when you think about how much easier it would make some things it sounds pretty useful. Think about how much easier it would be to implement arrays or other complex data structures when you would use the second tape for storing counters and so on.
01:19:37 <AndrewNP> Well, sure. If you want to make it EASIER.
01:20:14 <RodgerTheGreat> esoteric programming doesn't have to be about PAIN, it can also be about thinking in problems in different ways.
01:21:52 <AndrewNP> I guess. But Double BF is neither harder *nor* more innovative.
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01:26:23 <AndrewNP> After all, making these things easy is the job of regular languages. ;)
01:27:00 <AndrewNP> Well... *normal*. Not, regular-expression regular.
01:28:55 <RodgerTheGreat> I think of DF as a bit like Dis- it isn't *easy*, it just makes it less hard to do some things.
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03:00:10 <GregorR> SUPERU DANSU EKUSUPULOSON TAIMUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!
03:01:29 <RodgerTheGreat> the only reason it took this long is that I forgot that in Java it's String.equals("text"), not (String == "text")
03:03:53 * AndrewNP curses Java's lack of operator overloadation.
03:05:27 * AndrewNP curses a lot of things about Java. ;)
03:13:03 <RodgerTheGreat> it still very much bugs me that I can code all the hard parts of something almost flawlessly, and then screw up fundamentally on something simple.
03:13:18 <RodgerTheGreat> ///////{++++++++\}++++.///////{++++\}.////{----\}-.-------. as they say.
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04:02:09 <Razor-X> とてもMYSTERIOUS, in the spirit of Engrish.
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04:07:23 <RodgerTheGreat> so, it would appear that nobody's really interested in playing with my doublef*ck interpreter.
04:14:18 <RodgerTheGreat> essentially, it's BF with two tapes and two pointers. You control the second tape/pointer with a symmetrical set of commands- +-<>[],. == /\^v{};:
04:14:38 <BrainMachine> program: ////////{++++++++\}++++.///////{++++\}.////{----\}-.-------.
04:15:10 <RodgerTheGreat> as you can see, I can multiply without moving my pointer by using both tapes.
04:22:31 <Razor-X> It looks kinda like BrainFork.
04:22:41 <Razor-X> ... Or was it BrainTwist? Gah, I can't remember.
04:23:36 <RodgerTheGreat> well, it doesn't have threads like fork, and twist switches the code and data arrays- it's probably closest to twist
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04:24:13 <RodgerTheGreat> Strange thing is, I see "DoubleF*ck" listed everywhere as a language, but there's almost no information on it on the net.
04:24:43 <RodgerTheGreat> the only description I could find was a single paragraph on wikipedia's BF entry:
04:24:46 <RodgerTheGreat> "Doublefuck has an additional array and eight additional instructions which perform brainfuck-identical operations on the second array. They are, in order: "^", "v", "/", "\", ":", ";", "{", and "}"."
04:25:12 <RodgerTheGreat> I figure I'll experiment now that I have an interpreter, and eventually create a proper Esolang article for it.
04:31:03 <pikhq> Surely it can't be hard to implement a compiler for it.
04:32:03 <pikhq> Merely create a second array, and a second pointer. Voila.
04:32:23 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, I actually created this interpreter as an extension to my existing BF interpreter.
04:32:42 <RodgerTheGreat> not counting a stupid mistake, coding it took <15 minutes.
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04:36:34 <GregorR-L> http://www.donotputthebaby.com/index.php?s=McDonalds
04:36:48 <Razor-X> Create a Wiki page on it then.
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15:43:00 <ihope> "You are about to permanently delete a page or image along with all of its history from the database."
15:43:07 <ihope> What happened to undeletion, eh?
15:59:13 <ihope> Well, I was able to undelete the sandbox.
15:59:53 <ihope> Now let's try deleting "Hello world program in esoteric languages" and bringing it back, eh?
16:01:36 <ihope> I didn't do anything yet, besides deleting and undeleting the sandbox...
16:02:21 <Razor-X> ... Then why do you want to delete "Hello world program in esoteric languages"
16:02:28 <Razor-X> Just to test out undelete?
16:06:40 <pikhq> I think he just wants to "clean up" the wiki by removing all mentions of the nasty, nasty esoteric code. :p
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16:08:23 <ihope> No, I'm gonna delete all the copyvio.
16:10:03 <pikhq> Find some, and delete it; don't assume the whole bloody page is copyvio.
16:10:53 <ihope> Reverting isn't the same as deleting.
16:11:12 <ihope> If it's just reverted, it'll still be under the history and marked as public domain.
16:13:22 <pikhq> Could you state which ones are copyvio in the first place?
16:13:39 <pikhq> I dunno, maybe. . . Follow Wikipedia's policy on it?
16:13:44 <pikhq> Razor-X: Copyright violation.
16:14:27 <ihope> I think Wikipedia's policy is to revert, then delete, then undelete but without the edits that had copyright violation.
16:14:41 <Razor-X> Do we even *have* that on the Esolangs Wiki?
16:14:48 <pikhq> It also requires proof of the copyvio.
16:14:57 <pikhq> Which you have failed to mention.
16:15:13 <pikhq> You just come out saying "There's copyvio!".
16:16:57 <ihope> Well, the text in question included a copyright notice.
16:17:19 <ihope> And Graue reverted it, stating it was copyvio.
16:17:54 <ihope> I think deletion and undeletion should be okay.
16:22:31 <ihope> Then again, apparently Wikipedia's policy is to not actually delete the copyvio unless every revision had some...
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18:34:23 <ihope> What happens when two trolls troll each other?
18:36:13 <pikhq> They make a good idea for a programming language.
18:36:31 <pikhq> WTF N00B!!! LINEUX IS SOOM UCH BETTER!!!
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18:46:50 <Razor-X> Mmmm. FreeCiv is compiling.
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18:59:32 <Razor-X> I wish someone ported Morrowind for Linux :(.
19:00:00 <Razor-X> Hello Gregor-Read and Gregor-Read-Write.
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19:08:16 <Razor-X> Ah. It pays to know people with fat SSH accounts :P.
19:09:27 <Razor-X> All of the above, only add 226 GB to that storage amount.
19:10:34 <RodgerTheGreat> how's the bandwidth? The server I used stood up to a fark slashdot effect.
19:11:04 <Razor-X> It can go higher, but that costs him extra, so I cap everything at 1.5 MBit.
19:15:19 * pikhq prefers his current shell service
19:15:24 <pikhq> It's called "localhost". :p
19:19:00 <Razor-X> But I can set my shell to download something while it doesen't affect my bandwidth at all ;).
19:20:38 <GregorR-W> <Razor-X> BitTorrent rocks roflcopter omgwtf
19:21:17 <Razor-X> Stupid dog takes too long to follow me in Slash'Em.
19:21:36 <Razor-X> Oh well, time to rip some music using ffmpeg.
19:21:50 <Razor-X> But then my deity will get mad at me.
19:24:59 <GregorR-W> Your deity'll be cool with it if you eat the corpse, right?
19:26:03 <lament> but nethack has a better irc channel.
19:27:42 <lament> and that's all that counts
19:27:47 <lament> also, it's better balanced
19:28:03 <Razor-X> I think Slash'Em is more balanced, IMO.
19:28:32 <Razor-X> Are you using the right equality operator?
19:28:47 <lament> Razor-X: how many times have you ascended in either?
19:29:02 <Razor-X> lament: Once in NetHack, never made it past 8th level in Slash'Em :P.
19:29:25 <Razor-X> But then I play a Vampire Necromancer, so ....
20:44:16 <GregorR-W> *grumble grumble* damn bring your child to work day *grumble*
20:45:28 <GregorR-W> If I had a child, I'd be forced to kill myself.
20:45:54 <RodgerTheGreat> so, I take it you're putting up with the children of others.
20:46:13 <GregorR-W> "LET'S INTRODUCE MY LITTLE BRATS TO GREGOR HE'S ECCENTRIC SO HE SHOULD LOVE KIDS"
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20:48:12 <RodgerTheGreat> I have no desire to create children at any point in the near (or forseeable) future for the precise reason that I have difficulty imagining it being worthwhile.
20:51:50 <pikhq> You know, stupidity, it seems, is more likely to survive; stupid people are more likely to breed.
20:53:04 <RodgerTheGreat> smart people are more likely to think before procreating, so more of them either become good parents or never have children. I somehow imagine the latter is more common.
20:53:26 <RodgerTheGreat> and adopting counts as "never having children" from an evolutionary standpoint.
20:54:54 <pikhq> Ergo, stupid people are more fit, from an evolutionary standpoint.
20:55:10 <pikhq> Which means that we're doomed.
20:55:39 <RodgerTheGreat> how do you reason that? Stupid people might have a better chance at breeding, but they also often kill one another.
20:56:01 <pikhq> Yes, but they often die after breeding.
20:58:09 <RodgerTheGreat> stupid people breed earlier in life, which is all the more beneficial for organisms with a long gestation period. The only question is wether the survival of offspring is affected by the intelligence of the parent. (leaving babies in cars without cracking the windows, for example.)
21:04:22 <pikhq> The fact is is that they breed so much that, even if their stupidity causes a bunch of deaths, they're still ahead of intelligent people.
21:08:52 <GregorR-W> Solution: Stop putting warning labels on things.
21:09:12 <GregorR-W> Perfect time to randomly link http://www.donotputthebaby.com/ :P
21:11:43 <pikhq> Okay, Gregor, i've come to the conclusion that you kick ass almost as much as Maddox.
21:12:03 <pikhq> Take that how you will.
21:39:58 <Razor-X> If you don't tab-complete his name, I won't see the hilight pikhq. And then, I only think of ``Mr. McGregor'' .
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03:48:20 * RodgerTheGreat conveys that his previous sentence was stated with a hint of irony.
03:48:41 <Razor-X> It helps if you add in [/sarcasm] on IRC when you don't have context.
03:49:57 <Razor-X> I'm going through one of my 4 gaming phases in a year.
03:50:34 <Razor-X> Although I think I'll play Princess Maker 2 also.
03:50:43 <Razor-X> But I'm getting progressively more bored with games, which means the rush is ending.
03:51:05 <RodgerTheGreat> Ah. currently the only games I have for my mac are UT2004, Starcraft and Max Payne.
03:51:29 <RodgerTheGreat> it was fun when I played the demo on my PC, back in the day.
03:51:34 <Razor-X> Starcraft came close to beating my addiction record.
03:51:52 <Razor-X> I played it for 40 hours before quitting and never playing it again :P.
03:51:59 <RodgerTheGreat> Starcraft is the game that will not die. And also, the national sport of Korea.
03:52:31 <RodgerTheGreat> I've never played it for a long stretch, but I like coming back to it every once in a while.
03:53:14 <RodgerTheGreat> unfortunately, I'm coming dangerously close to beating the last campaign in brood war. For the first time, there will be no more.
03:53:32 <RodgerTheGreat> So, I'll probably beat it and start a new campaign in the first one again...
03:54:11 <Razor-X> I haven't finished a game in ages.
03:54:31 <Razor-X> Like... 4 years? Maybe more.
03:56:33 <RodgerTheGreat> let's see... the last time I started a game and played it to completion without playing any other games in the intervening period was Deus Ex. God, that was an awesome game.
03:57:00 <Razor-X> Tales of Symphonia was the last game I played and finished and didn't lose interest throughout.
03:57:19 <RodgerTheGreat> a few people I know have become obsessed with that game.
03:57:28 <Arrogant> I played through Kingdom Hearts 2
03:57:37 <Arrogant> And I'm working on New Super Mario Bros.
03:57:52 <Razor-X> Tales of Symphonia has really really good replay value.
03:57:56 <Razor-X> Best I've ever seen in a game.
03:58:17 <pikhq> I've got 790MiB of logs.
03:58:35 <Razor-X> Better than Starcraft too.
03:58:44 <Razor-X> Mainly because when I play games, I give the most credit to storyline.
03:59:03 <pikhq> And it seems that it's only since March 23.
03:59:08 <Razor-X> Tales of Symphonia also has a really good storyline too. I admit points were cliched, but it was all done pretty well, IMO.
04:00:31 <Razor-X> I just ... don't find fun in a game at all really. Frozen Bubble, Unreal Tournament, and NetHack/Slash'Em/Zangband are the only games that really still addict me. Morrowind can do it for a while.
04:01:22 <RodgerTheGreat> A friend of mine is battling a crippling addiction to a MUD called "Kallisti"
04:01:34 <pikhq> That feels quite a bit better.
04:01:43 * pikhq just removed that friggin' huge log file
04:02:08 <pikhq> My idea of a good game is an esoteric language.
04:02:13 <pikhq> Thus why I'm here. ;)
04:02:23 <RodgerTheGreat> I can think of a biological analogy to what pikhq just did to his computer.
04:02:43 <pikhq> I looked over that whole log file, BTW.
04:02:57 <pikhq> Openvpn seems to have been trying to connect a lot over the past few months.
04:03:00 <Razor-X> Yeah, esoteric languages are good games ;).
04:03:13 <Razor-X> Most people just don't find fun in the lame things I find fun, though :P.
04:03:37 <pikhq> Of course, for me, ordinary programming is normally rather fun, too, so. . .
04:04:11 * pikhq is probably not an average teenager. . .
04:04:37 <pikhq> Teenage coders, unite! :p
04:04:50 <Razor-X> I do lots of other boring things.
04:05:46 * pikhq is a bit of a science fiction and fantasy fan. . .
04:06:05 <pikhq> Seems to run in the family, though; 3rd generation of science fiction fans. :)
04:06:10 <Razor-X> I code, I now practice the piano, I read papers on math stuff that interests me, I learn 2 languages actively and a third language somewhat actively (and can speak two others), I read, I translate Wikipedia articles, I read religious and philosophical papers/books....
04:06:39 <Razor-X> I'm the very anthithesis of my parents. I take a bit after my Grandfather and Uncle (because only men were allowed high education back then).
04:07:25 <Arrogant> I write code and I play video games. And I sleep.
04:07:38 <pikhq> I convert coffee into code, for the most part.
04:08:05 <pikhq> Also enjoy mathematics.
04:08:17 <Razor-X> Compared to those activities, I find games so boring and slow :P.
04:08:26 * Arrogant is now playing "Dragula" by "Rob Zombie", track 3 from "Hellbilly Deluxe", which is 3 minutes and 42 seconds long.
04:08:37 <pikhq> Kind of have to if you're going to take calculus two years earlier then the "average" high school student. ;)
04:08:50 <RodgerTheGreat> I enjoy drawing pixel-art avatars for my online friends: http://rodger.shadowarts.org/pixels.php
04:08:50 <Razor-X> Set theory is so much more fun.
04:09:00 <pikhq> Razor-X: True, true. . .
04:09:08 <pikhq> Calculus is a bit more practical, however. :p
04:09:14 <Razor-X> That's what's so bad about it :P.
04:09:16 * GregorR is now playing "Turn off your fucking music script" by "Gregor Richards", track 4 from "Why Gregor Hates Everyone", which is 24 minutes and 14 seconds long.
04:09:22 <Razor-X> I listen to some English metal, and then a whole bunch of music from other languages.
04:09:23 <pikhq> (although both of them are a bit divorced from reality)
04:09:44 <Razor-X> English lyrics sound to me like Bush defiling Gates.
04:09:45 <Arrogant> GregorR, it's not a script, it's a hotkey.
04:10:02 * pikhq is now playing "silence", by "silence", track 1 from "silence", which is \infinity minutes long
04:10:49 <pikhq> I prefer "Do Not Put The Baby".
04:10:54 * Razor-X is listening to Nothing -- Nothing (0:00/0:00).
04:11:07 <pikhq> It's a much better example of his musical style, IMHO.
04:11:13 <GregorR> I would link the Kill Yourself song, but my voice sucks :(
04:11:38 <GregorR> Seriously, my voice is comically awful.
04:11:38 <RodgerTheGreat> "Gregor is Eccentric Yet Does Not Love Kids" is another good one.
04:11:45 <Razor-X> Right now I have my piano song and 眠り愛の剣 stuck in my head.
04:12:05 <GregorR> In case you were wondering, the Kill Yourself song is very real :P
04:12:41 * RodgerTheGreat is listening to Accountancy Shanty by Monty Python from Monty Python Sings
04:13:40 * pikhq did a Google, out of the blue. . .
04:13:50 <pikhq> Seems you're rather involved with D, Gregor. ;)
04:14:19 <Razor-X> I would love to code in D if I had a project involving it.
04:14:28 <Razor-X> I wanna try and do something useful this summer and contribute to SCSharp.
04:14:29 <GregorR> If you google my name, is the first result still my esolang page?
04:14:34 <Razor-X> But the project seems so disorganized.....
04:15:52 <pikhq> Followed by your user page on the Esolang wiki.
04:16:15 <GregorR> Y'know, I'd consider esolangs a /minor/ part of my life :P
04:16:44 <pikhq> After that, it goes into a bunch of quotes from the D mailing list, Mplayer mailing list, Python mailing list. . .
04:17:01 <pikhq> By sheer mass, I'd say you're in a lot of mailing lists, and that's your life. :p
04:17:06 <GregorR> mplayer and python were for work, so they're a fairly silly representation of my life.
04:17:20 <Razor-X> MPlayer is a great player, but the code is scary.
04:17:31 <GregorR> I was asking about the legality of binary codec.s
04:17:45 <GregorR> MPlayer sez "Uh, wedonno." Intel Legal sez "goforit!"
04:17:47 <pikhq> D is the vast majority of it, though.
04:18:20 <pikhq> Oh, that's right. You work in Intel. . .
04:18:40 * pikhq rubs an AMD chip in your face :p
04:19:36 <pikhq> http://directnet.sourceforge.net/ Okay, that's just too damned clever of you.
04:19:46 <GregorR> pikhq: That's what I'm most proud of :P
04:19:51 <pikhq> I can't blame you.
04:19:52 <GregorR> RodgerTheGreat: So does x86_64, so don't go talkin' about AMD :P
04:20:06 <Razor-X> That's one of the reasons I want to be a professor, any semi-lucrative job out there goes against my morals :P.
04:20:07 <pikhq> GregorR: x86_64 is less sucky then x86, at least.
04:20:28 <pikhq> I'd like to be paid to develop free software.
04:20:37 <pikhq> Since this is unlikely, academia it is. :p
04:20:44 <RodgerTheGreat> Razor-X: well, if you can get a job with them, google isn't evil *yet*.
04:20:51 <GregorR> Well, I build OSS in Intel, I don't touch anything proprietary.
04:21:05 <GregorR> Erm, OK, I'm still forced to use Solaris a bit, but that's goin' out.
04:21:30 <pikhq> Red Hat actually would be fairly nice. As much as I hate the distro, they *do* at least only write free software.
04:21:48 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Try OpenSolaris: It's free software. ;)
04:21:50 <Razor-X> People have too much faith in them.
04:22:02 <pikhq> (not GPL compatible, but free software)
04:22:05 <GregorR> RodgerTheGreat: ... not good :P
04:22:15 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah- I'm occasionally unsettled when I consider how much I use my Gmail account...
04:22:21 <GregorR> pikhq: To get a functioning OpenSolaris system, the vast majority of the prereqs are not open at all.
04:22:30 <pikhq> GregorR: Well, true. . .
04:22:39 <GregorR> Making the whole system not open at all in my eyes.
04:22:50 <pikhq> Besides: Solaris sucks terribly.
04:23:00 <pikhq> To get it to *usable*, you need a GNU userspace.
04:23:33 <pikhq> (one of my many friends is the sysadmin up at Tufts. . . Poor guy is tortured by their Solaris boxen quite a bit)
04:24:11 <GregorR> Solaris + GNU userspace = /almost/ OK
04:24:38 <pikhq> Nonfree software makes baby Jesus cry. :p
04:27:29 <pikhq> After seeing Grables, I can't stop laughing.
04:27:56 <RodgerTheGreat> I think I'm going to get some sleep. Good night, everyone.
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04:30:34 <pikhq> I'm browsing your personal page right now.
04:30:58 <pikhq> http://www.codu.org/hats.php I don't think you like hats.
04:31:43 <GregorR> I have three more I haven't put on yet.
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14:48:52 <ihope> I think I just discovered something.
14:50:27 <ihope> <!!%!!%!!%!!%> seems to be a NOT gate.
14:50:52 <ihope> !qbf <!!%!!%!!%!!%>
14:51:02 <ihope> !qbf <!!%!!%!!%!!%>.
14:51:13 <ihope> !qbf <!!%!!%!!%!!%>#
14:51:14 <EgoBot> |00> 0.00 |10> 0.00 |01> 0.00 |11> 1.00
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15:23:07 <pikhq> Shini nakkya. Doitsu go o hanasu kara.
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16:54:53 <Razor-X> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Yay! I'm back!"(_o)O.?]}
16:55:21 <GregorR-W> Oh, you called the wrong function :)
16:55:26 <GregorR-W> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Yay! I'm back!"(_o)o.?]}
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17:15:11 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. Does glass have any kind of facility for embedding comments (other than creating functions that are never called, etc)?
17:15:35 <pikhq> Surely one could do if(0){Comments here}. :p
17:15:49 <pikhq> 'comment' works too.
17:16:16 <RodgerTheGreat> I assume that comments can be anywhere except for class/function/variable names?
17:18:45 <ihope> They can't be inside the "!glass ". :-P
17:18:55 <ihope> !gla'comment'ss {M[m(_o)O!"Yay! I'm back!"(_o)o.?]}
17:19:13 <ihope> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Ya'comment'y! I'm back!"(_o)o.?]}
17:19:16 <EgoBot> Ya'comment'y! I'm back!
17:19:24 <ihope> Can't do that either.
17:20:37 <RodgerTheGreat> I was thinking about the technical aspects of creating a polyglot quine in glass- it'd be relatively easy to moosh BF code in everywhere you'd want.
17:21:12 <pikhq> It's inside of a string; probably can't get away with it there.
17:21:58 <pikhq> You could make a comment *be* a string in Tcl. . .
17:22:11 <pikhq> set comment "This is a comment! It's a string!"
17:22:33 <pikhq> set comment "Now, comment has a different value! Since nobody uses it, it's effecitvely a comment!"
17:22:42 <pikhq> Yeah. Just kidding.
17:23:33 <RodgerTheGreat> it's pretty much the same as <? $StringToNeverUse = "Woah! This could be code!"; ?>
17:26:06 <ihope> Comment in Unlambda: ``ki`.T`.h`.i`.s`. `.i`.s`. `.a`. `.c`.o`.m`.m`.e`.n.t
17:27:03 <RodgerTheGreat> I like BF "supercomments". [-][Arbitrary Text. <- Did you see that? I used a period! OMFG!]
17:27:51 <ihope> What if your BF interpreter bans ][?
17:28:27 <ihope> But what if it does?
17:29:03 <GregorR-W> ihope: Then it's not a BF interpreter.
17:29:14 <RodgerTheGreat> that's like asking "What if your BF interpreter doesn't allow [+] ?"
17:29:36 <RodgerTheGreat> if you disallow arbitrary command sequences, you rapidly create a useless language.
17:29:49 <ihope> Well, ][ is useless, except in making comments.
17:29:57 <ihope> Just like <>, ><, +-, and -+.
17:30:20 <RodgerTheGreat> much better would be to have the interpreter strip sequences like [blah][] -> [blah]
17:31:15 <pikhq> ihope: But a compliant interpreter will actually allow [code][foo].
17:31:29 <ihope> What if it's not compliant? :-P
17:31:29 <RodgerTheGreat> and besides, sequences like you're talking about could be quite useful in a flavor that allows self-modification.
17:31:47 <pikhq> It's useless, but it's part of the language.
17:31:59 <pikhq> Then it's a different language.
17:33:08 <RodgerTheGreat> it is worth considering that the original BF interpreter allowed self-modification.
17:40:02 <RodgerTheGreat> idea! Has anyone ever considered creating an emoticon-based language?
17:40:59 <lament> and then i stabbed them with a fork.
17:42:03 <ihope> Here, have a combinator base: (\a b c -> b (\ d -> a (\ e -> c (e d)))), (\a b -> b a), and (\a b -> a (\c _ -> b c) b)
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17:52:15 <ihope> That's what I call the bind/return continuation combinator base.
17:54:44 <ihope> The bind/return base would have (\a b c -> a (\d -> b d c)) instead of that one up there.
17:54:51 <ihope> The first one, that is...
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20:00:22 <GregorR-W> A couple days ago, she's saying "I wanted to see whales gettin' it on, not do science!"
20:00:32 <GregorR-W> Today, it's "My crotch smells like tuna!'
20:03:09 <lament> GregorR-W: "Really? Can i smell it?"
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20:42:06 <ivan`> Tcl/Tk is esoteric already, right?
20:52:22 <RodgerTheGreat> well, it's an esoteric programming language, but not necessarily in the sense that most esolangs are.
20:52:35 <ivan`> dictionary support is in alpha
20:53:24 <RodgerTheGreat> I guess that if PostScript is an esolang, then Tcl is as well.
20:54:16 <ivan`> is there an esolang that sort of OCRs lines in an image?
20:55:08 <RodgerTheGreat> so, not like this: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Braincopter
20:55:09 <ivan`> might be a terrible idea
21:55:58 * Sgeo leaves to watch Star Trek
22:02:12 <GregorR-W> These are the voyages ... of the starship zucchini.
22:12:35 <Razor-X> What about his old friend Starship Carrot?
22:17:20 <Razor-X> ``This is Captain Guacamole of the Starship Avacado. Come in, Captain Cucumber of the Starship Zucchini! We are under heavy fire by the evil Captain Alfredo! Come in Captain Cucumber!!!''
22:19:56 <Razor-X> Well, committe *psst that's you GregorR-W* I think it's time we announce some dates.
22:20:08 <Razor-X> There's someone else, and I'll talk to him.
22:20:12 <RodgerTheGreat> It's interesting that Avocados are the only known plants that create saturated fats.
22:23:15 <GregorR-W> Wow, three people on the committee?
22:24:45 <pikhq> I'm talking to a friend of mine. . .
22:24:56 <pikhq> He's considering making a 4d esolang.
22:25:10 <pikhq> Not that I can find.
22:27:23 <Razor-X> Make a 5 dimensional esolang!
22:27:30 <RodgerTheGreat> I might be interested in participating in the esolang contest, either on the committee or as a contestant- when is it going to be held?
22:28:28 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: I wanted 5-10 committee members before we convene on a date, but I doubt we'll get that many.
22:29:35 <pikhq> He's opting for ooD.
22:30:09 <pikhq> Well, it'd practically be limited by the amount of memory on your computer. . .
22:30:42 <RodgerTheGreat> Well, I'd be glad to join the committee if I'd be needed there (and you want me).
22:30:50 <Razor-X> Oh, that kind of infinite dimensions.
22:31:05 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: We want as many people as we can get.
22:31:12 <pikhq> On a true Turing machine, it would be infinite.
22:33:46 <RodgerTheGreat> w00t. I may not be the best coder here, but I think I know enough about esolangs and algorithms to make a good judge.
22:47:07 <ivan`> the 4DL hello world is crazy
23:03:10 * Sgeo was thinking 3d environments for some strange reason
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23:06:42 <Razor-X> If you want to join the committee, join the committee :).
23:07:16 <lament> i want to shoot the committee
23:07:31 <Razor-X> Don't shoot me, shoot GregorR-W instead.
23:09:50 <lament> doing something useful
23:10:30 <GregorR-W> And, to make that sentence proper, by "doing something" you mean ""
23:12:23 <lament> why are you compiling ruby?
23:13:43 <RodgerTheGreat> there, I'm listed on the committee now. http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/2006_Esolang_Contest#Committee
23:15:29 <RodgerTheGreat> I would've made my whole email address a program, but I wanted to fit it on a single line.
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23:34:40 <pikhq> Seems Nick has gone to apathetic about ooD.
23:35:24 <pikhq> But I've gotten rather excited about this idea. . .
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23:36:56 <pikhq> Anyone *else* care?
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23:37:34 <pikhq> i'm going to assume that that's "No, I don't care about an infinite number of dimensions on your stupid bloody language idea."
23:39:31 <pikhq> So, I'm just going to declare the following instructions:
23:40:35 <pikhq> _ and = change a single char: _ subtracts one, = adds one.
23:40:53 <pikhq> < and > move forward and back in the dimension specified by that char.
23:41:12 <pikhq> If one doesn't use _ and =, it is exactly equal to Brainfuck.
23:41:35 <pikhq> If one does, though, you've come up with a handy way of implementing functions in Brainfuck. :p
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23:42:14 <pikhq> Now, to think about how to specify what code will be in the array. . .
23:42:24 <pikhq> And see if someone is crazy enough to try implementing it. ;p
23:43:11 <lament> pikhq: i don't unedrstand your explanation
23:43:53 <pikhq> Argh. Misexplained it all.
23:44:08 <pikhq> My brain got tarnished by just thinking of it.
23:44:16 <pikhq> I'm going to go back to my Emacs buffer. . .
23:47:04 <pikhq> I'm writing the spec as I go, BTW. . .
23:47:39 <pikhq> +-[]<>,. are all as in Brainfuck.
23:48:04 <pikhq> There is a single byte aside from Brainfuck's normal array.
23:48:30 <pikhq> = and _ will act as + and -, respectively, on this single char.
23:49:23 <pikhq> There is a (theoretically) infinite amount of dimensions wherein the code can flow (unlike Brainfuck, with it's one, and Befunge, with it's two).
23:50:22 <pikhq> v will move "down" one in the dimension specified by the single char, and ^ will move "up" in that dimension.
23:50:58 <pikhq> The array and the char both start with all values set to 0.
23:52:33 <pikhq> Want it to be as close to infinite as I can, not merely 255D. x_x
23:57:14 <RodgerTheGreat> I suppose the question, then, is: how much Ram/Swap do you have?
23:58:41 <lament> pikhq: i still don't understand.
23:59:02 <lament> pikhq: is the code multidimensional or the memory? if it's the code, how do you specify it in the first place?
23:59:09 <pikhq> The code is multidimensional.
23:59:18 <pikhq> And that's what I'm not sure of yet.
23:59:40 <pikhq> The memory is just a straight-forward one dimensional array.
00:00:14 <lament> i'm not _quite_ sure you understand yourself what you're talking about
00:00:36 <pikhq> lament: Like I said, I'm making it up as I go right now. :p
00:00:54 <pikhq> You're just getting my thoughts on the subject right now.
00:01:39 <lament> i don't want your thoughts, i want a spec :)
00:01:56 <pikhq> Argh. I'm not entirely sure that's truly multidimensional code.
00:02:16 <pikhq> It's merely code that has a lot of ways to fork.
00:02:37 <pikhq> Still seems good in my head, but. . .
00:02:48 <pikhq> It's more of a "Brainfuck with functions" as it is, right now.
00:04:11 <lament> for the love of god, can people stop creating more brainfuck variants?
00:04:14 <lament> there's 9832478907345 already
00:04:23 <pikhq> lament: Sorry. Thought this was interesting.
00:04:41 <pikhq> It's not too late to abort it, though. :p
00:09:17 * pikhq has a (rather small) spec. . .
00:10:01 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca/115926
00:14:00 <pikhq> It's all my fault, isn't it?
00:15:09 <lament> holy shit the topic is long.
00:15:54 <pikhq> Thoughts? Comments? Accusations of stupidity?
00:18:46 <pikhq> I was beginning to think that myself.
00:18:56 <pikhq> It seems my brain and I have gone our seperate ways.
00:24:29 <pikhq> Could you just forget everything I've aid in the past. . . $large_amount_of_time?
00:25:39 <pikhq> Could you at least be willing to try and forgive me?
00:31:15 <pikhq> (I assume that'd be pending upon me doing something smart)
00:34:35 <pikhq> Now, I've got a psuedo-smart specification on my hard drive.
00:34:44 <pikhq> And no, I'm not posting it yet.
00:35:05 <pikhq> I want to re-examine it some time when I'm not in the middle of a stupidity streak.
00:59:34 <pikhq> I think programming in this is going to be a bitch.
01:00:25 <GregorR-W> (Unlike BF, in which programming is like a cool summer breeze)
01:08:47 <pgimeno> <ihope> Well, ][ is useless, except in making comments.
01:08:47 <pgimeno> <ihope> Just like <>, ><, +-, and -+.
01:09:49 <pgimeno> I can find uses for all of the pairs of commands in the second line.
01:10:44 <pgimeno> Many BF interpreters stop when D=0 and executing <, so <> can be thought of as "Stop if D=0; otherwise continue normally."
01:11:28 <ihope_> What about the others?
01:11:32 <pgimeno> >< can be a check to stop if no more memory is available.
01:12:09 <pgimeno> In the case of nonwrapping-constrained interpreters, -+ can serve as a check for if an attempt to decrement zero is done.
01:12:41 <pgimeno> And, of course, +- can be used for overflow detection in the same interpreter scenario.
01:13:15 <pgimeno> I can't find a use for ][, though, except writing comments which is useful per se.
01:13:39 <pgimeno> Or even commenting out code.
01:15:11 <ihope_> Well, they're all useless in BF interpreters which provide infinite tapes in both directions and allow arbitrary integers of either sign...
01:15:47 <pgimeno> which are not very numerous and are highly nonstandard
01:16:28 <pgimeno> (nonstandard for the infinite tape part)
01:17:36 <pgimeno> But that will not stop you if you were planning a BF-tidy program :)
01:20:09 <pgimeno> I have also imagined another BF variant in which ][ could be useful
01:21:24 <pgimeno> so the number of BF variations is now 9832478907346 including mine
01:22:10 <pgimeno> in this variant the code starts at data position -1 and goes backwards
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01:23:27 <pgimeno> the commands are in ASCII so it permits self-modification
01:24:07 <pgimeno> but in order to manipulate instructions it may be necessary to have "dead code" in the middle of the program
01:25:00 <pgimeno> this would allow a BFOS, since in this way loaders could be written
01:26:00 <ihope_> But it wouldn't allow optimization of code and all that.
01:26:16 <pgimeno> yeah, you have to live with that
01:26:55 <pgimeno> but some programs with unbalanced [] could even be valid
01:27:51 <pgimeno> e.g. a program with an extra ] could be valid if the data area (which is also executable) has been written with a matching [
01:28:45 <pgimeno> or if self-modified to match
01:29:10 <pgimeno> it opens a whole new world of BF power :)
01:29:33 <ihope_> Here's an idea: an optimizing BF compiler that turns its input into some fancy type thing, then churns out something of that type, which is the compiled program.
01:29:58 <ihope_> It'd be hard to guarantee that each type only goes with one program, though, eh?
01:30:56 <pgimeno> I don't get the fancy type thing part
01:36:28 <RodgerTheGreat> pgimeno: don't forget that +-, -+, <>, and >< could be useful in a self-modifying BF program as spacers, even moreso ][, which in the case of [......][.....] could be "opened up" to [............] as a simple way of extending a main loop.
01:37:28 <pgimeno> yeah, interesting usage case too :)
01:45:30 <ihope_> The compiler would just turn its input into some complex specification of just what the program does, then turn it into some other type of code.
01:49:36 <RodgerTheGreat> I always thought a good tool would be a powerful preprocessor for BF that would support things like macros, variable names, etc, (vaguely like BFBASIC, perhaps), that would render out raw BF, and then a matching BF compiler that would transform the raw BF into efficient assembly.
01:50:32 <RodgerTheGreat> they kinda exist as seperate utilities, but if you combined the two it would be like a regular high-level language.
01:51:13 <RodgerTheGreat> brings to mind the old "gluing parts onto a skateboard to make a luxury car" adage.
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02:06:18 * pikhq just might have his infinite dimensional Brainfuck variant specified by now. . .
02:08:20 <pikhq> I think ihope can attest that, right now, you *don't* want to see it.
02:09:17 <pikhq> Give me a couple more days to make sure I'm not just on crack by mistake. :p
02:56:45 <RodgerTheGreat> this image speaks to me: http://i.somethingawful.com/inserts/articlepics/photoshop/08-04-06-difficulty/occamsmonkey.jpg
03:01:34 <GregorR> Diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiet Cherry Vanilla Orange Grape Lemon Lime Mint Roast Chicken Mayonnaise and Colaaaaaaaaaaaa Dr Pepper!
03:04:25 <RodgerTheGreat> we should design a language around your previous sentence so that it will *become* a hello world.
03:10:35 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. "Hello, World" = 12 characters. there are 12 a's in "Colaaaaaaaaaaaa", so that can be output.
03:10:58 <RodgerTheGreat> "Diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiet" can allocate a stack or something...
03:11:25 <RodgerTheGreat> and then we need to get "Cherry Vanilla Orange Grape Lemon Lime Mint Roast Chicken Mayonnaise" to push data into a stack... or something...
03:49:44 <pikhq> http://nickv111.is-a-geek.com:8080/~pikhq/dimensifuck
03:53:51 <RodgerTheGreat> wait- isn't this ultimately just a *big* three dimensional space?
03:55:02 <pikhq> That's a bug in how I'm specifying the dimensions.
03:55:13 <pikhq> I need a good damned way of doing it.
03:56:51 <pikhq> Then a set of those series is 6d. . . And so on.
03:57:23 <RodgerTheGreat> now, to actually store this as a data structure, you'll need a treelike system.
03:57:53 <RodgerTheGreat> problem is, you'd have to define it bottom-up, which makes things difficult.
03:57:53 <pikhq> I'd prefer a way of representing it in simple ASCII.
04:01:01 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't think there's a simple way to represent xD code that is at the same time clear.
04:03:14 <pikhq> Maybe express it as follows: 2D piece 1, 3D piece 4, 4D piece 3. . . etc.?
04:03:20 <RodgerTheGreat> heh. idea- add a command that sets you to a random "dimensional index"...
04:03:59 <RodgerTheGreat> I would define dimensions like ip addresses- x.y.z.a?.b?...
04:04:16 <pikhq> Hmm. That's a good idea.
04:05:55 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/dcvogllmrcmcdp.ogg
04:06:13 <RodgerTheGreat> if you want to define your code that way, you can preface each command with an address like that- sorta like BASIC line-numbers.
04:08:08 <pikhq> What'd be nice is a program to allow easy editing of code like this. ;)
04:09:09 <pikhq> I've got a new spec up.
04:09:19 * RodgerTheGreat perceives the meaning of gregor's enigmatic food-related statement!
04:09:20 <pikhq> Try it, and see if that's a less sucky version.
04:09:34 <pikhq> Sorry. Need to copy to public_html.
04:09:48 <GregorR> Incidentally, that first section is my voice unedited. Yeah, my voice sucks.
04:11:44 <pikhq> I made edits, and they disappeared.
04:12:01 <GregorR> Crap, I screwed it up .... I didn't say "lemon lime" in the "small print"
04:16:48 <pikhq> The spec could use refining, I know, but I believe now it should at least be actually infinite-dimensional in nature. . .
04:18:15 <pikhq> If it actually is correct, then I dare someone to write an interpreter or compiler for it. :p
04:19:24 * RodgerTheGreat demands a credit line for fundamental underlying concepts of dimensifuck.
04:21:15 <pikhq> Just getting your head around it is a challenge. Specifying a language in it is making me near-insane.
04:21:45 <pikhq> And the fact that I'm not even sure if any of it makes any sense at all isn't helping.
04:22:26 <RodgerTheGreat> just be sure to include my name somewhere in the Esolang article when you create it.
04:23:12 <pikhq> Along with Nick, for a) giving me the idea and b) trying to convert my scratchings into a proper LaTeX spec.
04:24:20 <pikhq> I'd do it, but I'm not entirely capable of figuring out what I mean at the moment, so. . .
04:28:15 <pikhq> There, that should be a bit more clear.
04:28:56 <pikhq> Sorry. Need to fix it.
04:29:11 <pikhq> My explanation of the example code, mostly.
04:31:13 * pikhq waits for the inevitable accusations of stupidity/insanity
04:34:24 * pikhq just realised one thing that it needs
04:34:35 <pikhq> You think maybe I could use a way to end the program?
04:34:55 <RodgerTheGreat> programs that end are easier to write interpreters for.
04:36:16 <pikhq> It already clashes with Braintwist. :p
04:37:17 <pikhq> Well, at least I know my language is Turing complete, via a trivial isomorphism with Brainfuck. ;p
04:38:20 <pikhq> Just do: 1.1 *brainfuck code here*X
04:39:20 <pikhq> Any Brainfuck coder can write for Dimensibrain. Just not every Brainfuck coder can use the dimensional features. ;)
04:39:39 <pikhq> Argh. s/ibrain/ifuck/
04:39:48 * pikhq needs to get the name right, at least.
04:39:51 <GregorR> <pikhq> Argh. s/ibrain/ifuck/
04:40:36 <RodgerTheGreat> ^ notice the clever combination of "Brillaint" and "ain't" (which is not a word)
04:40:49 <pikhq> Now. . . Do you think that it's now actually validly multi-dimensional, and *gasp* makes sense?
04:41:46 * pikhq notices an issue. . .
04:43:46 <RodgerTheGreat> you have to *tell* me the issue before I can solve it, unless you want me to make shit up.
04:44:12 <pikhq> It's just that ^ and v ended up doing the opposite of what they'd appear to do.
04:44:33 <pikhq> That's just an issue with my example code.
04:44:45 * pikhq needs to stop coding when he's this irrational.
04:48:08 <pikhq> *There*, the example code should now actually fit the language.
04:49:27 <pikhq> It's actually a language that makes some sense now, I believe.
04:49:37 <pikhq> And it only took me a few hours to get there. :p
04:50:26 <RodgerTheGreat> d'you know that gasoline smell? Smells like... victory!
04:50:51 * pikhq runs s/three/five/ on his spec
04:53:27 <pikhq> I believe this can be called "masochism at work" now.
04:53:40 * pikhq dares anyone to implement it
05:01:28 <pikhq> A certificate which is written in Dimensifuck.
05:03:57 <RodgerTheGreat> "In a moment, pikhq is going to step into another dimension. A dimension not only of sight and sound, but of the mind. There's a signpost up ahead- he has entered... The Dimensifuck Zone..."
05:06:02 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm glad I stumbled across this channel a few days ago- I feel so at home. :)
05:07:54 <RodgerTheGreat> I've been learning about esolangs as a hobby for years now- little did I know there was a community of madmen (and madwomen) just like me RIGHT BELOW MY NOSE
05:17:13 <pikhq> Just be glad I'm not overloading the operators. :p
05:20:37 <RodgerTheGreat> I've been thinking about the feasibility of implementing a raytracer in BFVGA, but I know nothing about raytracing other than that it's slow and looks cool.
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05:46:25 <pikhq> A friend convinced me that ^ and v should be conditional, so we can get rid of [ and ].
05:47:21 <pikhq> And Nick got a nice LaTeX version.
05:48:25 <pikhq> http://nickv111.is-a-geek.com/~pikhq/dimensifuck.tex
05:49:08 <BigZaphod> RodgerTheGreat: hey! I remember you. :-)
05:49:17 <BigZaphod> I made Whirl, Cow, Taxi, and 3code. ;-)
05:49:53 <pikhq> I've been working on Dimensifuck with a few people.
05:50:11 <BigZaphod> been quite awhile since I've been in that world, though. :-)
05:50:25 <BigZaphod> anyway, I'm just popping off to play a game with the wife for a spell. be back later. ;-)
05:51:10 <pikhq> http://nickv111.is-a-geek.com:8080/~pikhq/dimensifuck.tex
05:52:33 <pikhq> Actually, that happened by chance.
05:52:38 <pikhq> He didn't hear any of that.
05:52:46 * pikhq didn't right that; my friend Nick did
05:53:15 <pikhq> Argh. This has been a very bad day for me. Can't seem to think at all.
05:53:51 <pikhq> Him? Probably being punny.
05:54:40 <pikhq> He's serious, and begs to differ with you.
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05:55:59 <GregorR> I am Alpha and Omega. And that guy is Epsilon.
05:56:24 <nickv111> Um, pikhq tells me you guys don't think Upsilon is a Greek letter, or something of the like
05:56:25 <RodgerTheGreat> I assume that you, nickv111, are the guy assisting pikhq with his esolang.
05:56:28 <pikhq> nickv111: RodgerTheGreat just found out you're both right.
05:56:39 <RodgerTheGreat> [12:54am] RodgerTheGreat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upsilon
05:56:39 <RodgerTheGreat> [12:54am] RodgerTheGreat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epsilon
05:56:39 <RodgerTheGreat> [12:55am] RodgerTheGreat: We're both right, it would appear. :/
05:57:04 <nickv111> Right, I said specifically to pikhq, "If you look up greek letters, Upsilon is definitely a greek letter
05:57:14 <nickv111> Both of them are definitely greek letters"
05:57:17 <nickv111> So, I said both of them were definitely greek letters.
05:57:48 <nickv111> Yeah, I never said that Epsilon isn't a greek letter. I said that Epsilon and Upsilon are two completely separate letters
05:57:53 <nickv111> Just wanted to clear that up ;)
05:57:55 <pikhq> I didn't see that when I said "He's serious, and begs to differ with you.".
05:58:56 <pikhq> nickv111: So, would you agree with me that anyone who implements this is quite probably insane?
05:59:01 <RodgerTheGreat> interestingly, it appears nick and I came up with similar explanations for multiple dimensions independently.
06:00:40 <RodgerTheGreat> [10:55pm] RodgerTheGreat: use dimensions like a tree structure.
06:00:40 <RodgerTheGreat> [10:55pm] RodgerTheGreat: imagine a cubical arrangement of cells.
06:00:41 <RodgerTheGreat> [10:55pm] RodgerTheGreat: now imagine a line of these cubes- that's time.
06:00:43 <RodgerTheGreat> [10:56pm] RodgerTheGreat: now imagine a whole series of these lines. that's 5d
06:00:51 <RodgerTheGreat> [10:56pm] RodgerTheGreat: good. I'm glad I could describe it.
06:00:53 <RodgerTheGreat> [10:56pm] pikhq: Then a set of those series is 6d. . . And so on.
06:00:56 <RodgerTheGreat> [10:56pm] RodgerTheGreat: just imagine panning back infinitely.
06:00:58 <RodgerTheGreat> [10:57pm] RodgerTheGreat: now, to actually store this as a data structure, you'll need a treelike system.
06:05:34 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I'm going to get some sleep. Good night, everyone.
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17:12:18 * pikhq wonders if someone's going to be crazy enough to implement Dimensifuck
17:13:18 <RodgerTheGreat> I dunno... I might try it in Java at some point, but my OOP-fu is weak
17:14:00 <pikhq> One condition: try and make it work with GCJ, please.
17:14:11 * pikhq doesn't like having non-free software around. . .
17:14:20 <RodgerTheGreat> creating the data structure necessary for storing code is gonna be a bitch.
17:15:06 <pikhq> Well, it should just end up being a simple CLI app, so it should work with GCJ. . .
17:15:32 * pikhq also likes the ability to compile the Java bytecode to a native binary. ;)
17:15:39 <RodgerTheGreat> I have access to a shell on a machine with GCJ so I ought to be able to test it out.
17:16:31 <RodgerTheGreat> Java is really pretty fast, dude- a properly coded app can achieve 60-70% the speed of C, and it's actually portable. Take a look at JAKE, for example.
17:17:42 <pikhq> Yeah, yeah, yeah. . .
17:17:51 * pikhq codes in Tcl, not C, anyways. ;)
17:18:47 <RodgerTheGreat> C has it's place (coding drivers, for example), but I think it's inconvenient for most of my purposes.
17:19:09 <RodgerTheGreat> I've done most of my recent coding work in PHP, actually.
17:19:50 <pikhq> I think *Java* is inconvenient for most purposes.
17:20:41 <pikhq> Combines the ease of use of C++ with the speed of running your code in an emulator.
17:20:51 <RodgerTheGreat> textedit -> javac -> java. No screwing around with preprocessors, makefiles or compiler flags.
17:21:39 <pikhq> Then I'll run gcj on the Java bytecode when I get it, so I have a native binary.
17:22:48 <pikhq> Mostly for simplicity of execution; using gij to execute it takes a little bit more typing.
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19:55:33 <Razor-X> Especially on older machines.
19:56:35 <lindi-> Razor-X: got some benchmark?
19:57:27 <Razor-X> Not as much speed as it eats up memory like the devil.
19:57:39 <Razor-X> Especially on a box with only 256 MB of RAM.
19:57:54 <lindi-> depends on the program i guess
19:58:13 <Razor-X> Even something small like jMemorize takes up almost as much memory as an Opera session with 40 tabs.
19:58:56 <Razor-X> Java and GTK2 are the two biggest memory hogs for Linux. GTK2 is improving, but I can't see Java improving.
19:59:28 <Razor-X> Not unless you use the OSS VMs, which require GNU Classpath for the most part, which relies on a bunch of stupid Gnome dependancies that I don't want to deal with.
20:00:39 <lindi-> Razor-X: gnu classpath has QT4 peers
20:00:50 <lindi-> Razor-X: and pure X peers are being planned
20:00:51 <pikhq> It uses too damned much memory. And I've got 1G. . .
20:01:26 <lindi-> "java.lang.reflect.InvocationTargetException at java.lang.reflect.Method.invokeNative(Native Method) at java.lang.reflect.Method.invoke(Method.java:372) at jamvm.java.lang.JarLauncher.main(JarLauncher.java:49) Caused by: java.lang.NullPointerException at jmemorize.gui.swing.CardTable.valueChanged(Unknown Source) at javax.swing.DefaultListSelectionModel.fireValueChanged(DefaultListSelectionModel.java:710) "
20:01:41 <pikhq> Razor-X: What do you think of Dimensifuck?
20:01:53 <GregorR> C = nice. C++ = horrible but usable bastardization of C. Java = horrible, weak, insulting bastardization of C++.
20:02:09 <GregorR> (Insulting because it treats the programmer like an idiot)
20:02:29 <GregorR> Derrr, what are pointers? ME SCARED BY POINTER ARITHM...ARITH...ADDING N' STUFF!
20:03:35 <Razor-X> lindi-: Oh yes, QT4 is also full of annoying dependancies. I only have QT3.
20:03:48 <pikhq> Jeeze. . . If you're going tu use C syntax, at least be willing to use the power of pointers.
20:04:05 <pikhq> (They may be highly annoying at times, but they *are* powerful in the right hands)
20:04:07 <lindi-> Razor-X: i'm all in favor of reusing parts and not reinventing the wheel unnecessarily :)
20:04:08 <Razor-X> I prefer C# over Java many times over, personally.
20:04:08 <GregorR> Actually, Qt4 has very few dependencies ...
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20:04:27 <lindi-> Razor-X: and as i said, it is possible to add new peers quite easily
20:04:34 <pikhq> Razor-X: Oddly enough, C# is more free then C++. ;)
20:04:40 <Razor-X> GregorR: I don't run any DE, or anything resembling one.... so anything that depends too heavily past GTK/GTK2 or base of QT is annoying for me.
20:05:10 <GregorR> pikhq: I was gonna say ... :P
20:05:17 <Razor-X> Yeah, I know. It's really ``hit it off'' in the OSS community.
20:05:18 <GregorR> Public service announcement: D.
20:05:33 <Razor-X> lindi-: Are there any pure GTK2 or QT3 peers?
20:05:35 <lindi-> but portability is a problem with java definitely, too many programs run only on sun's class library
20:05:43 <GregorR> Razor-X: Which is disgusting, because as soon as it's big enough in the OSS community, M$ will drop their patent hammer.
20:05:52 <Razor-X> For GNU Classpath, since I wouldn't mind running Kaffee just to bear with my Java programs.
20:06:27 <Razor-X> GregorR: That's why Mono and <the-other-implementation> are being written, no?
20:06:53 <GregorR> Razor-X: You can't break copyright law without knowing it. You can break patent law without knowing it.
20:07:20 <lindi-> Razor-X: there's GTK and QT4 currently
20:07:35 <Razor-X> lindi-: But GTK depends on GConf.
20:08:21 <lindi-> well, if i can get freedom by spending some extra ram i'm all for it :)
20:09:15 <Razor-X> Freedom shouldn't come at the cost of the means of production.
20:09:25 <Razor-X> (Shameless Marx reference.)
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23:14:23 <pikhq> ihope: I think you'll be glad to hear that my infinite dimensional Brainfuck variant is now in the realms of sanity.
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23:23:53 <pikhq> The last time he saw it, I think, it wasn't even ooD.
23:23:57 <pikhq> It was more like 3D.
23:24:08 * pikhq was highly confused then
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23:24:44 <RodgerTheGreat> well, now dimensions are defined quite a bit differently.
23:25:19 <RodgerTheGreat> the last spec I saw defined "dimension indices" in a format a bit like an IP.
23:26:16 <pikhq> Which is how it still works.
23:26:41 <pikhq> Really hasn't changed much since late last night.
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00:07:26 <pikhq> Maybe I should write some code for it.
00:07:59 <pikhq> Perhaps an HQ9+ implementation?
00:09:40 <pikhq> Meh. I'll just do an H interpreter.
00:10:00 * pikhq needs to think a bit
00:12:30 <pikhq> There's not even a "Hello, world" app in it yet.
00:16:45 <pikhq> Still a simple isomorphism with Brainfuck. . .
00:16:55 <pikhq> Bit more complex, but it is simple.
00:17:11 * pikhq opts to use more dimensions, anyways ;)
00:29:57 * pikhq has got a Hello, World app in Dimensifuck
00:39:47 <Razor-X> Where is this Dimensifsck from?
00:44:08 <Razor-X> Wait... this hasn't been done before?
00:44:20 <Razor-X> I thought someone had already made an n-dimensional *Funge.
00:44:31 <Razor-X> I mean, that was what came to my mind the first time I read about BeFunge.....
00:45:06 <Razor-X> You may want to isolate the halting and printing instruction too.
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00:57:26 <Razor-X> Wait.... that's not even multidimensional.
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00:58:40 <oerjanj> one more time, with feeling
00:59:13 <Razor-X> WAIT... THAT'S NOT EVEN MULTIDIMENSIONAL.
00:59:44 <oerjanj> that's better, i saw DF in the logs but thought noone was around to discuss it
01:01:16 <Razor-X> Well yeah, Dimensifsck is not multidimensional.
01:01:26 <oerjanj> it seemed multidimensional to me
01:01:53 <oerjanj> what about the example code?
01:03:12 <Razor-X> But if you have absolute addressing... isn't a lot of the magic gone?
01:03:50 <oerjanj> i had an idea on easing that
01:03:53 <Razor-X> Like, can't you just store constants in a certain dimension, etc.
01:04:42 <oerjanj> basically, if you leave out a number it is the same as in the previous line
01:04:57 <oerjanj> except if it's the last one, then increment
01:05:42 <oerjanj> then the combination newline + n NULs works like a page break in the n+1'st dimension
01:05:43 <Razor-X> But when I first thought of a system like this, I had a different vision.
01:06:03 <Razor-X> Which, IMO, would be more consistent.
01:06:49 <pikhq> Razor-X: Yeah, yeah, yeah. . . I barely grok n-dimensional stuff, so anything from me might end up being mildly shitty.
01:07:11 <Razor-X> I spent two years working with this stuff in my head, so I get geeky with dimensions :P.
01:07:25 <pikhq> I mostly have trouble going above 4 dimensions.
01:07:28 <Razor-X> You *can* use absolute addressing, but eh, it defeats the point IMO.
01:07:32 <oerjanj> one thing that confuses me about the example code: it looks like the default for a coordinate is 1, but then two of the lines have the same coordinate, 1.-1 and the following
01:08:00 <pikhq> oerjanj: Blame me for that.
01:08:26 <pikhq> I was mostly trying to give my friend Nick, who was writing the LaTeX spec, some clue about how the code would look.
01:08:44 <Razor-X> Here are the changes I propose:
01:08:52 <pikhq> http://nickv111.is-a-geek.com:8080/~pikhq/dimensifuck.tex is the Dimensifuck spec.
01:08:53 <oerjanj> and also some of the lines have more than one command on them
01:09:35 <pikhq> Each line is supposed to be a one-dimensional string. . . Maybe I didn't make that clear enough?
01:10:09 <Razor-X> Instead of absolute addressing, we have a relative dimension increment for dimensions greater than 2. It'll look like [3(+)] to go ``up'' in the third direction (Z-axis positive) [3(-)] to go ``down'' in the third direction (Z-axis negative).
01:10:35 <oerjanj> so each line is a sequence of commands, all at the same coordinates?
01:11:05 <pikhq> Razor-X: Good idea.
01:11:10 <Razor-X> Well, I mean, you can use > < ^ v or whatever you define to move in the first two dimensions but...
01:11:17 <Razor-X> You can, in essence, have [99(+)] which goes ``up'' in the 99th dimension.
01:12:08 <pikhq> BTW, how Dimensifuck works and how you think it works, seems to me to be mildly different. . .
01:12:14 <Razor-X> Makes me feel like implementing an infinity of an infinity of dimensions ;).
01:12:30 <pikhq> Only ^ and v change the dimensions that you're executing code in.
01:12:35 <Razor-X> pikhq: I was using the BeFunge movement, but whatever.
01:12:48 <pikhq> Talking abotu a *different* language. Ah.
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01:13:19 <Razor-X> Well, Dimensifsck uses absolute addressing so....
01:13:51 <Razor-X> Hasn't BF been overdone enough already? ;).
01:14:00 <oerjanj> in a sense befunge uses abs addressing too, each line starts at x=0
01:14:09 <pikhq> The absolute addressing is mostly just for the sake of actually writing the code down in ASCII. . .
01:14:25 <Razor-X> *Everything* has an absolute starting point.
01:14:36 <Razor-X> pikhq: Which is why I proposed my dimensional notation, heh.
01:14:49 <oerjanj> well, if you use my suggestion for .. defaults then you can leave off many numbers if you want
01:15:40 <Razor-X> How about we implement something like Tri-n-funge (Trinfunge) ?
01:15:48 <oerjanj> btw i am confused about that "switch v" in the example code
01:16:07 <Razor-X> Where you have three ``super'' dimensions.
01:16:19 <Razor-X> A finite set of an infinity of dimensions. Sounds nifty, no?
01:17:42 <pikhq> oerjanj: The "switch" is a comment; it's just switching to a different dimension there.
01:17:48 <oerjanj> except that 3*infinity is just the same infinity, so it depends a lot on the particulars
01:18:19 <oerjanj> but why are there two v in the line?
01:18:22 <Razor-X> No no, I'm talking about CH type stuff.
01:18:32 * pikhq needs to read that file again, it seems
01:19:25 <Razor-X> {A, B, C}, where A, B, and C are sets that look like {a, b, ... , z, ...} where each element of each set is distinct.
01:19:34 <Razor-X> And a, b, z correspondingly looks like:
01:19:58 <pikhq> Follow the flow of execution.
01:20:11 <Razor-X> {あ、の、わ、。。。、た} each of which has mutually exclusive elements.
01:21:05 <Razor-X> That's all you need to know :P.
01:22:52 <Razor-X> So, whaddya think, y'all ?
01:23:32 <oerjanj> it still seems like A,B,C, being infinite, add up to the same infinity
01:23:57 <Razor-X> If you have an infinity of such infinities, how can you have the same infinity?
01:24:16 <oerjanj> multiplying an infinity by itself is still the same infinity
01:24:31 <oerjanj> (equivalent to the axiom of choice)
01:24:37 <Razor-X> You still have an uncountable number of elements, but if you have an infinity of infinities, it's intuitively easy to see that this set has more than an infinity of elements....
01:24:52 <Razor-X> But are we really ``multplying'' here?
01:25:16 <oerjanj> if you are somehow taking powers it becomes something different
01:25:28 * oerjanj suddenly has a deja vu feeling
01:26:37 <oerjanj> do you mean there to be one dimension for each sequence (a,b,c,...,z,...) of values? then you get powers
01:28:41 <oerjanj> pikhq: if i understand correctly, the first v in that line is canceled by the second
01:29:14 <pikhq> The first v is the second one to be executed.
01:29:44 <Razor-X> Why do you want NUL characters, by the way?
01:29:54 <Razor-X> My keyboard doesen't... have a NUL button....
01:30:08 <oerjanj> but then you get conflict with the BF . command
01:30:17 <Razor-X> Is this meant to be BF compatible?
01:30:37 <oerjanj> i am not sure there is a NUL in Unicode
01:30:47 <Razor-X> There's NUL in ASCII though.
01:30:59 <pikhq> It's meant to be easily compilable into from Brainfuck, but not meant to be BF compatible.
01:31:10 <pikhq> After all, the [ and ] commands aren't around.
01:33:00 <oerjanj> hm, but if all commands on one line have the same coordinates, how do you define which direction to execute it in?
01:34:47 <Razor-X> I was thinking that too, but I assumed it was - to + coordinate.
01:35:27 <pikhq> Code starts executing with each axis set to 0, correct?
01:35:40 <oerjanj> i assumed 1 from the example
01:35:50 <pikhq> The example there is bad.
01:36:41 <pikhq> Each = will increase the dimension number that ^ and v will change the direction to.
01:37:22 <pikhq> When you use ^, it changes to that dimension, and it moves "up" in that dimension (going positively on the n axis). When you use v, it goes "down".
01:37:27 <Razor-X> What if you go down a dimension at axis 0 ?
01:37:40 <oerjanj> i think i could make sense of the example if there was a specific coordinate that increased along the line
01:37:48 <Razor-X> So you... dynamically change codeflow?
01:38:20 <oerjanj> one not necessarily written as a number
01:39:11 <pikhq> Each line represents a one dimensional string. . . So, each instruction moves +1 on the X coordinate when the code starts.
01:39:25 * oerjanj thinks he understands the example now
01:39:43 <Razor-X> So then you can go up a dimension and have another two dimensional array?
01:40:06 <pikhq> *sigh* This would be easier to explain if I could just manage to draw an n-dimensional array of code on a piece of paper.
01:40:12 <pikhq> Razor-X: You could, yes.
01:40:20 <Razor-X> Ignoring absolute addressing.
01:40:24 <pikhq> Or, you could have another 3 dimensional array.
01:40:35 <Razor-X> So then, how would you have another three dimensional array?
01:40:51 <oerjanj> well, your example is essentially 3-dimensional so a figure should be possible
01:41:05 <pikhq> Yeah, it is effectively 3-dimensional.
01:41:33 <oerjanj> i had some thoughts on implementation which might also help with visualizing
01:41:35 <Razor-X> So now that you have 3d-space, show me the instruction pointer going up, down, left, and +Z in it.
01:42:43 <pikhq> To go left? ___v Up? _^ Down? _v +Z? ^
01:43:16 <oerjanj> you can think of commands as nodes in a graph that are connected by edges if only one coordinate differs
01:43:43 <Razor-X> If ==v gives you a 2D space, and ===v gives you a 3D space, by performing ===_v, aren't you again generating a 2D space?
01:44:05 <pikhq> You're going back to the 2D space.
01:44:17 <pikhq> The = and _'s cancel out.
01:44:18 <Razor-X> You're not preserving the dimensional space then.
01:44:52 <pikhq> No spaces are *generated*; the playing field isn't actually having stuff dynamically assigned to it.
01:45:18 <Razor-X> So the moment you have =v you generate a dimension, but ==_v you have a ``floating'' 3rd dimension but you can't move in that space?
01:45:32 <pikhq> Maybe I gave you a wrong command.
01:45:43 <Razor-X> You can only go up on one axis at one time without increasing or decreasing dimensions, which effectively makes it 2D though. You can see that can't you?
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01:46:35 <Razor-X> You're just adding abstractions to what is physically a piece of infinitely thin cardboard.
01:46:44 <oerjanj> not 2D, but a graph structure
01:47:10 <Razor-X> But we want *true* n-dimensional space, which means you need to be able to move along the 1st dimensional axis even in 3D space.
01:47:30 <pikhq> http://nickv111.is-a-geek.com:8080/~pikhq/Hello.dim See if that makes any more sense
01:47:38 <pikhq> (Hello, world in Dimensifuck)
01:48:42 <Razor-X> But you're using absolute addressing here, aren't you?
01:49:04 <pikhq> The last three lines are attached to the 1 dimensional string at 0; it moves out in the third dimension, away from the 4th and 5th to last lines.
01:49:16 <pikhq> I'm really not sure.
01:50:20 <Razor-X> My argument is simple. Relativistically, you can only move in one dimension at one time, thereby removing the very point of a dimension. Absolutely, you can move in any dimension, but if you use absolute addressing, I would think it destroys all similarity to BF.
01:50:23 <oerjanj> what is the use of the initial 0. on each line?
01:50:42 <pikhq> Hmm. I'm really not sure.
01:50:48 <RodgerTheGreat> the idea is that he can drill down as many dimensional levels as he wants.
01:51:12 <Razor-X> It *works*, but IMO it's pretty unelegant :P.
01:51:28 <Razor-X> The only reason it's ``dimensionally complete'' is because of absolute addressing.
01:51:50 <pikhq> Seems to me to be rather elegant, actually.
01:51:58 <oerjanj> the absolute addressing is only a feature of describing the program, not of its execution
01:52:23 <Razor-X> Then how can you move dimensions if you can only move in n-axis in n-space at one time?
01:52:24 <pikhq> 10 instructions and n-dimensions. Simple.
01:52:34 <RodgerTheGreat> he uses "Dimension IP's" to define the nD shape of the code.
01:53:02 <Razor-X> In real life, I'm in 3D space, and I can move in any of the 6 directions at ANY time. I can't *only* walk along the Z axis, until I restrict myself to 2D-space and then *only* walk along the Y axis.
01:53:55 <oerjanj> but you are not restricting yourself. in a sense the space is always infinite dimensional
01:54:03 <RodgerTheGreat> so, you're saying it should allow program flow on arbitrary axes?
01:54:28 <Razor-X> oerjanj: My point is, this system is topologically equivalent to 2D-space.
01:54:53 <RodgerTheGreat> I agree that that's a bit more elegant, but allowing that has more to do with language semantics than the manner in which you define the topology of your code.
01:55:11 <Razor-X> Simply because you only have one metaxis that increments the space and axis moveable on, and another metaxis that allows you to move along the moveable axis.
01:55:25 <Razor-X> So you can equivalently reduce the space to two metaxes that define your space.
01:55:27 <pikhq> And I suppose you'd argue that any language which is 2D but can't move diagnally is topologically 1D?
01:55:49 <pikhq> What you're asking for is basically diagonal movement in n dimensions.
01:55:58 <oerjanj> not 2d, a subset of 3d. the graph is not necessarily planar
01:56:20 <Razor-X> Which is why I propose the [(9)=] notation.
01:56:29 <pikhq> Which would be damned difficult to do without adding a bunch of commands to the language.
01:56:53 <Razor-X> Or [(8)_] which gives you a *true* n-space at any time.
01:57:11 <pikhq> Like Brainfuck, Dimensifuck is meant to have a sparse instruction set.
01:57:32 <Razor-X> I can see that, but then you are basically getting a 2D space.
01:57:44 <Razor-X> I can probably simulate the operation of Dimensif*ck in BeFunge.
01:58:02 <Razor-X> Even when the Dimensif*ck program uses more than 2 dimensions.
01:58:39 <oerjanj> well, you could probably simulate even with vector movements, if you are just clever enough
01:58:56 <Razor-X> That would make a really sparse instruction set, actually.
01:59:13 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. have you guys considered the ramifications of making tape memory nD as well?
01:59:30 <oerjanj> btw, your [(8)_] notation, is it supposed to increment/decrement a coordinate of a velocity vector?
01:59:30 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: What ramifications?
02:00:07 <Razor-X> In axis 8, move in the - direction.
02:00:17 <Razor-X> [(8)+] In axis 8, move in the + direction.
02:00:20 <oerjanj> isn't that somehow the idea of unefunge? (except that's 1-dimensional)
02:00:33 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I mean in terms of the things you could code with it- it might be extremely useful for creating some types of data structures...
02:01:24 <oerjanj> not move, accelerate. there's an important difference there.
02:01:51 <oerjanj> the question is, after (8)+, does it stop moving in the other dimensions?
02:02:04 <RodgerTheGreat> although, from a programmer's standpoint, it'd be equivalent to a tree... I wonder if it would make sorting algorithms easier to implement...
02:02:06 <Razor-X> It's an absolute movement.
02:02:21 <oerjanj> then it cannot be used for diagonal movement any more than the current version
02:03:05 <oerjanj> because diagonal movement is essentially movement which is not parallell to a single axis
02:03:20 <Razor-X> (0,0,0) [(3)+] (0,0,1) [(2)+] (0,1,1)
02:03:58 <Razor-X> (0,0,0) [(3)=] (0,0,1) [(2)=] (0,1,1)
02:04:04 <Razor-X> Rewritten in Dimensif*ck form.
02:04:58 <oerjanj> completely rewritten, nearly
02:05:33 <oerjanj> (the only problem is that you the current dimension value must be statically determinable.
02:05:47 <oerjanj> argh, my fingers are sloppy
02:05:59 <Razor-X> Aha. I see what the problem is.
02:06:27 <Razor-X> Then I'm moving in some other pseudo-n-dimensional space, but ``more'' topologically equivalent to a true n-space....
02:06:37 <Razor-X> Because I can only move in one direction at any one time.
02:06:51 <Razor-X> Because physically we are restricted to the same movement.
02:06:54 <oerjanj> but still essentially a graph
02:07:21 <Razor-X> Well, *everything* is still just a stack.
02:07:37 <Razor-X> But I mean, I would think my model is a better model of the real world IMO.
02:07:49 <oerjanj> so you need a velocity vector, which is added to current point after each command, and which is itself added to by ^v
02:08:02 <oerjanj> then you could have a truly diagonal velocity
02:08:29 <Razor-X> Velocity vector. Just put that in vector form for me, please :P.
02:08:49 <oerjanj> well, it would be like your
02:09:20 <oerjanj> (0,0,0) [(3)+] (0,0,1) [(2)+] but then (0,1,2)
02:09:55 <Razor-X> See, then we get into set theory problems again, because if I understand you correctly, these vectors themselves lie on an axis cheaply made to be non-parallel to any other axis in our n-space.
02:10:06 <Razor-X> Darn you Cantor, darn you! :P.
02:10:27 <pikhq> Could we just leave it as "all movement can only be made parallel to an axs"?
02:10:30 <oerjanj> not a big problem. only finitely many coordinates of the velocity are non-zero
02:10:39 <Razor-X> But yeah, that is a better model.
02:11:07 <Razor-X> And we can even have an infinite of these vector axes with corresponding non-parallel axes and have infinite-infinite space!
02:11:12 <oerjanj> i think it was used in general Funges before
02:11:27 <RodgerTheGreat> can anyone think of a more efficient way to define the shape of code?
02:11:49 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: Quantum :P.
02:12:19 <oerjanj> you could make the IP coordinates" be relative to the previous command
02:12:32 <Razor-X> I think that would be a nice idea.
02:12:56 <pikhq> Except that each IP coordinate merely defines a one-dimensional string. Which command in that string would it be relative to?
02:13:06 <oerjanj> and you could have a notation for defining which coordinate increases along the string
02:13:06 <RodgerTheGreat> or, you could say that the code runs in a straight line, and each "kink" is defined by an angle vector.
02:13:16 <Razor-X> The previous coordinate on the non-parallel axis.
02:13:26 <Razor-X> Let's call the non-parallel axis I, for now :P.
02:13:58 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: *Shudder* too mach physics there for me.
02:14:19 <Razor-X> I don't think well in graphical form, sorry :P.
02:14:42 <Razor-X> (n-space works in number form in my head. I have no graphical interpretation.)
02:14:45 <RodgerTheGreat> ... says the person who regularly discusses quantum computing...
02:15:03 <oerjanj> you could of course mix relative and absolute coordinates depending on which is more efficient in each case
02:15:06 <Razor-X> That's lament and ihope ^^^.
02:15:16 <Razor-X> oerjanj: But then we deviate from BF :(.
02:15:47 <pikhq> *echm* Plain, simple code means that we do absolute coordinates.
02:15:55 <pikhq> That would be nice, RodgerTheGreat.
02:16:09 <Razor-X> pikhq: But then, doesen't that completely divorce it from BF?
02:16:20 <pikhq> Damned fancy relative coordinates? If you want it, Razor-X, go ahead; I'm not doing it.
02:16:30 <RodgerTheGreat> I've seen projects for building 3d text editors... in theory you could generalize something like that...
02:16:32 <pikhq> How so? It's friggin' isomorphic to Brainfuck as it is!
02:17:59 <pikhq> Our code can only *move* in one dimension at a time. However, it can pick any arbitrary dimension to move in.
02:18:06 <oerjanj> the ultimate in relative coordinates would of course be for it to be impossible for the program to know which dimension it is moving along
02:18:30 <Razor-X> pikhq: Read my argument on metaxes.
02:18:43 <Razor-X> oerjanj: Hehe, yeah. That's the ``truest'' way.
02:18:57 <oerjanj> the =_ commands are actually more helpful for this than ()+ notation
02:19:07 <pikhq> And I don't want relative coordinates, because I want to be able to code in this and have a hope of retaining my sanity.
02:19:33 <Razor-X> Well then *shrug*. You kinda lose the BF-fun, but whatever.
02:19:43 <pikhq> What do you mean, lose the BF-fun?
02:19:54 <pikhq> Care to give an example how this divorces it from Brainfuck?
02:20:09 <Razor-X> I'd just put all my constants in (1,y,z), do other operations on (2, y, z), etc.
02:20:34 <Razor-X> Since I have absolute space, I may as well partition out like variables and malloc like in a normal non-stack-based language.
02:20:53 <pikhq> Which you could do in this. . .
02:21:34 <pikhq> Oh. That's your point, isn't it?
02:22:09 <oerjanj> well, you can do it in BF itself, can't you?
02:22:38 <Razor-X> You can only increment or decrement the pointer, it's in relation to the last value of the PC.
02:22:48 <pikhq> You're just wanting this to be even harder then it already is.
02:23:04 <Razor-X> I'm trying to make it as mathematically complete as possible :P.
02:23:20 <pikhq> It's Turing complete; what more do you need?
02:23:40 <Razor-X> Well, you're basing it on dimensions, so I thought you'd like ``dimensional completeness'', heh.
02:24:10 <pikhq> The only thing I don't like about the language is the current representation of each dimension in the file.
02:24:20 <oerjanj> but dimensifuck also has some of the same limitations, you cannot point to more than one program location
02:24:40 <Razor-X> oerjanj: Can you do that in C?
02:24:50 <pikhq> Ever heard of multithreading?
02:24:55 <Razor-X> You can't make a pointer point at two places at once....
02:25:03 <Razor-X> Multithreading is a whole different beast.
02:25:10 <oerjanj> you can have pointers to functions
02:25:34 <Razor-X> But the pointer still only points at once place.
02:25:43 <Razor-X> Nothing can point at more than one memory location.
02:25:58 <oerjanj> my point is that DF and BF both have only one pointer into program code
02:26:08 <Razor-X> Well yeah, only one pointer, true.
02:26:18 <oerjanj> while C can have as many pointers as you want
02:26:22 <Razor-X> But a stack also uses relative addressing. That was my main gripe.
02:26:49 <Razor-X> I wanted to make it mathematically complete and more BF-compatible, even if the user is sacrificed :P.
02:27:30 <Razor-X> Because 2+2 is never equal to 5, no matter how much you want it to ;).
02:27:58 <pikhq> Now that I understand, I can say that I want it divorced from Brainfuck.
02:28:10 <Razor-X> If you do that, then fine.
02:28:21 <pikhq> I wanted more capabilities in the language, but still force the coder to be friggin' insane.
02:28:35 <Razor-X> Then you may as well take the Funge route.
02:28:46 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: Doublethink~
02:28:55 <Razor-X> It's how I learned quantum computing from ihope.
02:28:57 <pikhq> Brainfuck just provides an instruction set that I already grok, really.
02:29:18 <Razor-X> pikhq: I mean like, don't keep it horribly restricted.
02:29:20 <pikhq> It was chosen to spare *me*. ;)
02:29:33 <Razor-X> *Funge has a lot of commands so, it's not a turing tarpit.
02:29:51 * oerjanj gets an idea on relative dimensions
02:30:12 * pikhq wants a Turing tarpit; just one that is a lot more capable then Brainfuck. ;)
02:32:16 <pikhq> It just still demands
02:32:30 <pikhq> How the hell did I hit enter instead of C-k?
02:32:44 <pikhq> Something like that.
02:33:00 <pikhq> Someone up there must not be terribly fond of the insanitjy of DF.
02:33:21 * oerjanj did similarly a moment ago
02:34:10 * pikhq is equally fond of it
02:34:51 <oerjanj> hm, to lay out larger 2D portions of DF code, it might be useful to let the IP code start a _page_ rather than a line
02:35:03 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: You wrote an interpreter already?
02:35:29 <pikhq> oerjanj: Tried that. Made for a large 3D space, and nothing else.
02:35:51 <pikhq> I meant Dimensifuck.
02:36:16 <pikhq> Thus, the confusion.
02:39:15 <RodgerTheGreat> anyway, let me restate- do you want to play with my DBF interpreter?
02:39:23 <oerjanj> what about 0.1.2-25.6.-1 This line is laid out in the 3rd dimension
02:40:05 <oerjanj> would make it easier to lay out non-"horizontal" pathways
02:40:14 <pikhq> You know what one of the most amusing things is about Dimensifuck? I can insert comments in the code without adding to the code size at all. ;)
02:42:43 <oerjanj> (actually just 0.1.2-.6.-1 would be enough)
02:44:20 <oerjanj> a question: must DF code be laid out in reverse lexicographic IP order?
02:44:54 <pikhq> I'm fairly certain the code in the file can be laid out in any arbitrary order.
02:54:31 <oerjanj> hm, the tex spec does not seem to allow more than one command per line
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03:50:11 <Razor-X> Wooh. We're still talking about DF? :P.
03:51:02 <Razor-X> We need a truly innovative language that isn't just unreadable or a turing-tarpit. Something wholly new.
03:51:08 <Razor-X> That's what I really want to find.
03:51:46 <pikhq> Fine. Come up with something that is uniquily painful.
03:52:04 <Razor-X> Yes. That is my new purpose.
03:52:43 <RodgerTheGreat> it'll need to be primarily semantic pain- encryption's been done.
03:53:00 <Razor-X> Wait no, that's not appropriate for this channel.
03:55:25 <Razor-X> No. It's an expression :P.
03:55:53 <Razor-X> But yeah, that's (one of) the Kanji for cutting/seperation.
03:56:12 <RodgerTheGreat> then elucidate your wording. I'm sorry to inform you that I am not remotely fluent in Japanese.
03:57:50 <RodgerTheGreat> by what means do you come to this knowledge of Japanese?
03:57:58 <pikhq> Is it just me, or do us esoteric coders seem to like Japanese?
03:58:05 <pikhq> Boku mo nihongo o hanasu. ;)
03:58:53 <Razor-X> すみません、ですけど、前に私は「ます」っ言わさせます。
03:59:34 <Razor-X> I speak Esperanto, Bengali, and French too, if you consider French a language.
04:01:25 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't consider french a language worth knowing- I can't imagine it would grant me entrance to anything worthwhile. Japanese is quite useful on the internet, and I imagine that Esperanto might come in handy if you ever choose to create a "utopian society" or something.
04:02:15 <Razor-X> The nifty thing about Esperanto is that, there's always a speaker of some small language or another who can also speak Esperanto, which often means you'll get Esperanto translations.
04:02:53 <pikhq> Esperanto is also nice for stifling boredom (just like Esolangs)
04:03:12 <RodgerTheGreat> one could also argue that learning Esperanto could make the languages it was based on more accessible, but if similarity to other languages is key, English is king.
04:03:12 <Razor-X> Well... may as well learn Lojban then ;).
04:03:38 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: It's helped my French a lot, and enough that I can understand elementary Spanish and Portugese.
04:03:39 <RodgerTheGreat> Esperanto is one of the closest things to a human esolang.
04:03:50 <Razor-X> But it's by no means esoteric.
04:04:00 <Razor-X> It's easy to learn, completely regular, sensible, ....
04:04:22 <Razor-X> Or did somebody just start speaking in pointers one day?
04:04:33 <RodgerTheGreat> it's a bit like Latin- more useful as an exercise than as an actual day-to-day language.
04:04:37 * pikhq has created a true human esolang. . .
04:04:49 <Razor-X> Lojban is the real human Esolang.
04:05:01 <Razor-X> Fascinating in its constructs, and difficult to speak in for that reason.
04:05:22 <Razor-X> But I love a lot about it, and should resolve myself to memorize the 1000 cmavo one day.
04:06:12 <Razor-X> It's truly a pity that the human body requires so much sleep.
04:06:31 <pikhq> A: Any noun. Ba: Any verb. Ca: Any adjective. Da: Any adverb. Ga: Any punctuation. Gxa: any curse word (all pronounced as though in Esperanto)
04:06:52 <Razor-X> Lojban has no real parts of speech :P.
04:06:54 * pikhq was bored in class. Sorry.
04:07:18 <pikhq> Razor-X: 'Tis a pity, indeed.
04:07:56 <Razor-X> The moment you restrict yourself to parts-of-speech, you keep yourself in the world of the mundane ;).
04:08:20 <pikhq> It was meant to be pointless.
04:08:35 <pikhq> Everything is a wildcard. Easy to translate, hard to grok.
04:10:41 <Razor-X> My main complaints about English are that it's A) Horribly irregular and B) Sounds like Bush defiling Chamberlain.
04:11:34 <RodgerTheGreat> the real problem with constructed languages is that humans tend to communicate in a highly predictive, fluid, and redundant manner. You could miss several words in a sentence completely, and easily fill in the gaps (except when those specific words are targets of the sentence- subject, specifier nouns/adjectives). A language that presents information concisely, logically, and in a well-structured manner doesn't play well to n
04:12:41 <Razor-X> What does that have to do with Esperanto? It's structure is more variable than English's structure, and also, you got cut off after ``doesn't play well to n'' .
04:13:28 <Razor-X> When I speak in Esperanto, I omit explicit the subject, which is something I've picked up from Japanese and Bengali.
04:13:45 <Razor-X> I also use the English habit of often dropping the formal question marker.
04:14:10 <Razor-X> I prefer to put things in the accusative case instead of using a preposition because of my French experience too.
04:14:26 <Razor-X> That's what I love about Esperanto. It's very free in its sentence structure.
04:14:38 <RodgerTheGreat> I simply feel that designed language, rather than emergent language, is a flawed conception of how humans use language- just as attempting to resist change in existing languages is a fallacy.
04:14:38 <Razor-X> *I omit the explicit subject.
04:15:05 <Razor-X> When did we say Esperanto doesen't change?
04:16:17 <Razor-X> In the days of Esperanto's inception, people would call an American ``Usonanto'' now they're called ``Usono'' because of change in the use of suffixes. A verb common in Esperanto in the beginning was ``opinii'' -- to opine (to have an opinion about), that word has since dropped in favor of ``pensi'' -- to think.
04:17:30 <Razor-X> Another one is, in the inception of Esperanto, ĉi tie was used to mean ``here''. It's been superseded by ``tie ĉi'', but I still prefer ``ĉi tie''.
04:21:00 <Razor-X> Errr, I got my Usono example wrong, because Usonanto is used now. I forgot the old word....
04:25:34 <Razor-X> There's also been shifts in the language because of the feminist movement. Male conjugations of occupations (like proffesor, and such, which are Esperanto's default forms) would mean specifically male. It's come to mean a person of both genders now.
04:47:09 <RodgerTheGreat> I think I'm going to call it a night. Goodbye everybody.
04:47:21 * pikhq mumbles about his back hurting too damned much
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04:47:58 <pikhq> It's like someone has been hitting me in one of ribs with a baseball bat once very few minutes.
04:48:17 <pikhq> That can't be a good thing.
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05:00:16 * pikhq hits Razor-X in the back
05:00:24 <Razor-X> Hey... it's not nice to hit girls...
05:00:47 <pikhq> You're lesbian. Make up your mind. :p
05:02:28 <Razor-X> I said hit girls, not hit *on* girls ;).
05:02:41 <Razor-X> And I'm bisexual in all technicality, so yeah.
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15:59:48 <RodgerTheGreat> there is now an EsoLang article upon DBF: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/DoubleFuck
16:02:58 <pgimeno> I like the ease of writing stacks with DF
16:04:16 <RodgerTheGreat> well, we were discussing calling it "DBF", because the DimensiFuck project seems to have claimed "DF"
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16:05:19 <RodgerTheGreat> Do you know of any DBF interpreters/programs/etc that you could add to the article?
16:07:46 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm doing some work on a fibonacci sequence program for the "examples" section. I may do a "Hello World" as well, unless someone else does one first.
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18:46:46 <Razor-X> BF variants are so easy to think up.
18:47:33 <Razor-X> I propose we make DoubleBoolFsck, based on DBF but used with BoolF, we make TritFsck, which is like BoolF with trinary numbers instead, and DOUBLETritFsck, which is like DBF but using TritFsck as well!
18:51:30 <RodgerTheGreat> if you feel like adding all the wiki entries, go ahead by all means. :)
18:52:20 <Razor-X> BF has been overdone/overused.
18:52:26 <Razor-X> We must find something new!
18:55:26 <Razor-X> Let's get away from stack-based, because that's old and overused.
18:55:54 <RodgerTheGreat> man, I just cracked open a can of canada dry that's been sitting in my closet for a couple of years. It tastes rather odd.
18:56:37 <RodgerTheGreat> I think "register based" languages have some potential.
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19:00:05 <RodgerTheGreat> we could also go in the direction of a more complex particle automaton.
19:05:07 <RodgerTheGreat> many of the pages about are down- I'm consulting the wayback machine...
19:09:14 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, hey- there's an esolang article about it: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Noit_o'_mnain_worb
19:10:07 <pikhq> Razor-X: Well, at least with DimensiFuck, yeah. . . Brainfuck has now conquered all. New stuff is needed.
19:12:17 <ihope> There are plenty of 3D cellular automata out there.
19:12:59 <RodgerTheGreat> we could experiment with merging cellular automata with programming languages- cells that contain programmable logic of some kind...
19:13:52 <ihope> Just compile some programming language into CA.
19:13:54 <RodgerTheGreat> throw in mutation, and you could have an environment where "programnisms" could evolve to perform tasks.
19:14:08 <Razor-X> There's one Esolang like that already, I just can't remember the name.
19:14:12 <Razor-X> Minus the mutations, IIRC.
19:14:43 <RodgerTheGreat> mutations would introduce enough of an innovation to be worthy of creating a new language.
19:15:12 <RodgerTheGreat> brb- I'll be switching over to my laptop in a moment...
19:15:14 <Razor-X> What would be these ``rules of mutation'' ?
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19:19:27 <Razor-X> What would be these ``rules of mutation'' ?
19:20:37 <RodgerTheGreat> depends on how you wanted reproduction to work- the "internal" language of the cells would need to be designed to allow for random changes in code without ruining a program
19:20:52 <ihope> Quantum cellular automata?
19:21:05 <RodgerTheGreat> <>+- from BF would work well, but [] would be vulnerable to breakage.
19:21:20 <Razor-X> ihope: So is EQBF technically ``more'' quantum complete than BF?
19:21:41 <RodgerTheGreat> having discrete functions in the programnisms would probably be a good way to protect functioning code
19:21:47 <ihope> Razor-X: probably.
19:22:20 <ihope> Apparently the number of quantum gates is uncountable, and QBF is countable in every way, I think...
19:22:50 <Razor-X> Aha. So I must learn EQBF now.
19:25:55 <pgimeno> hey, I've come with a new idea for a language... it has 8 instructions, ,.><+-[]
19:26:17 <pgimeno> , does input, . does output, > increments the data pointer...
19:27:48 <pgimeno> ... < sets the data register, + performs substract without borrow in ternary, - performs rotation, [ does jump and ] terminates the program
19:28:33 <pgimeno> nope, it's not a BF derivative, it's a DIS derivative
19:28:52 <Razor-X> That's what I call ingenuity :).
19:29:00 <pikhq> It just looks like Brainfuck. Insanity.
19:29:08 <pikhq> Now, right a polyglot quine with it.
19:29:53 <pgimeno> </irony> I'm a bit tired of BF derivatives, you know...
19:30:48 <pgimeno> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Dis
19:31:00 <pgimeno> Dis is a good language to write 99bob in
19:32:03 <ihope> 99 bobbles of beer on the wall...
19:33:11 <pgimeno> who's up for a round of IRP? "Please write the lyrics of the 99 bottles of beer song"
19:35:06 <ihope> 99 bottles of beer on the wall
19:35:36 <Razor-X> *99-bottles-of-beer pretty easily.
19:35:39 <ihope> 99 bottles of beer
19:36:45 <ihope> Take one down, pass it around
19:36:54 <ihope> (I don't want to get accused of flooding.)
19:38:12 <ihope> 98 bottles of beer on the wall.
19:39:02 <Razor-X> Take 97 down, pass them around
19:39:10 <Razor-X> 1 bottle of beer on the wall
19:39:16 <Razor-X> Take one down, pass it around
19:39:21 <ihope> Take it down, drink it all yourself, we're done.
19:39:22 <Razor-X> No bottles of beer on the wall.
19:39:55 <ihope> Yep. We finished before 9:00!
19:40:10 <ihope> My time, that is...
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19:55:25 <pikhq> It needs to do hq9+.
19:56:19 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
19:56:21 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
19:57:39 <EgoBot> bf/, glass/, linguine/
19:58:03 <pikhq> !bf file:///bf/LostKng.b
19:58:26 <EgoBot> 1 GregorR-W: daemon cat bf
19:58:29 <EgoBot> 3 GregorR-W: daemon EgoBot bf8
19:58:44 <pikhq> Seems he modded it a bit so that it goes to private messages.
19:58:49 <EgoBot> Enable long room descriptions (Y/N) ?
19:59:02 <ihope> All but the first line?
19:59:08 <ihope> !daemon lostkng bf file:///bf/LostKng.b
19:59:15 <pikhq> Most of it is going to me.
19:59:32 <pikhq> Probably the anti-flooding stuff.
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20:00:00 <EgoBot> Enable long room descriptions (Y/N) ?
20:00:37 * pikhq prefers LostKng done using Basm. . .
20:00:50 <pikhq> Can't even tell it's written in Brainfuck, not C.
20:03:56 <RodgerTheGreat> I emailed the guy that created LostKingom- he let me look at the commented source. fascinating stuff.
20:04:28 <GregorR> pikhq: That's not a mod, that's how it's always worked.
20:06:12 <GregorR> The rule is: for every line of input it receives, it is allotted one line of output (plus the one line it is always allotted upon startup)
20:06:13 <pikhq> GregorR: I thought it was all going to private message at first. I then realised it's just your anti-flooding stuff.
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20:10:38 * ihope points pgimeno to the logs
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21:25:08 <pikhq> http://nickv111.is-a-geek.com:8080/~pikhq/Hello.dim
21:26:31 <pikhq> Kind of hard to draw out a diagram of that.
21:28:01 <pikhq> Argh. Minor bug in it; fixed.
21:29:03 <pikhq> All that code, BTW, was merely systematically translated from the Brainfuck equivalent. . .
21:30:30 <pikhq> Nice, clean, simple.
21:30:58 <pikhq> So, I've managed to prove Dimensifuck Turing complete while writing it.
21:31:54 <GregorR> Or BitChanger if that's easier.
21:31:58 <RodgerTheGreat> otherwise HQ9+ would be turing complete... *shudder*...
21:32:30 <RodgerTheGreat> would writing an HQ9+ interpreter prove it turing complete? That requires math and flow control...
21:32:45 <pikhq> Actually, I proved it Turing complete because of how I wrote the program; I just systematically converted from Brainfuck.
21:33:55 <RodgerTheGreat> well, that's not really a proof. It's turing complete because it's a polymorphism OF a turing-complete language- proof by distribution.
21:34:20 <pikhq> Well, it's not a formal proof or anything.
21:36:36 <pikhq> http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/dbfi.b Fine. I'll rewrite that in Dimensifuck.
21:37:38 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: did you ever look at the doublefuck page I added this morning?
21:38:20 <RodgerTheGreat> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/DoubleFuck <- :D
22:07:55 <ivan`> why do almost all esoteric languages only parse one-instruction per byte?
22:08:04 <ivan`> surely that limits the amount of esotericness possible
22:09:07 <Razor-X> Do you mean per instruction word?
22:12:29 <pikhq> Let me just do a simpler proof of Turing completeness
22:15:20 <pikhq> 2 ^*insert code here*=^+^
22:16:42 <pikhq> s/-/-]/, please. (gets the point across better)
22:17:10 * pikhq cries a river which floods the world
22:22:27 <pikhq> Infinite loops are easy to write.
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23:02:23 <pikhq> 2 ^*insert code here*=^+^
23:07:38 <pikhq> My simple proof of Dimensifuck's Turing completeness.
23:08:05 <pikhq> Basically, implementing [ and ] in Dimensifuck (all the other Brainfuck opcodes are also valid in Dimensifuck)
23:09:48 <pikhq> If you come up with something simpler, I'd be glad to hear it.
23:10:54 <nooga> idk need to reboot %|
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23:52:55 <Razor-X> It would help if I knew what Turing-completeness meant.
00:03:24 <RodgerTheGreat> Turing-complete means that a programming language is capable of simulating a universal turing machine, or in a more general sense performing any computable calculation.
00:04:20 <RodgerTheGreat> BF was formally proven by creating a UTM simulation, and thus any language that can calculate anything BF can is also turing-complete.
00:05:08 <RodgerTheGreat> Turing-Completeness gains it's name from Alan Turing, a mathematician who wrote founding works about computability, and is in effect the father of Computer Science.
00:08:10 <Razor-X> Because you then follow the link on a Universal Turing Machine, and it's horrible.
00:10:15 <RodgerTheGreat> it's not really any worse than coding in bitwise cyclic tag or the like...
00:15:36 <pikhq> The Universal Turing Machine was proven by Alan Turing to be capable of computing anything that can be expressed algorithmically. It's also the first Turing tarpit.
00:16:35 <RodgerTheGreat> the concept of a "Turing Tarpit" came from attempts to (mathematically) design UTM's that could operate within arbitrary memory or symbol limitations.
00:17:54 <RodgerTheGreat> it's a theoretical, logical construct. An interpreter, of a kind.
00:18:24 <RodgerTheGreat> turing machines of lore operate with a tape containing symbols, and a read/write head.
00:18:53 <pikhq> The tape is infinite.
00:19:03 <RodgerTheGreat> in response to symbols, the head can perform changes upon symbols, move, or the machine can change modes, altering how it responds to symbols.
00:19:26 <Razor-X> So it's a lot like an FSM and a Datapath?
00:20:01 <RodgerTheGreat> these mappings of symbols to actions are analogous to an algorithm- a program.
00:20:34 <Razor-X> Aha. So it is like an FSM and a Datapath.
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03:25:53 * pikhq is currently rather happy. . .
03:26:10 <pikhq> A friend of mine is currently writing a Dimensifuck implementation.
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09:39:05 <nooga> jeg snakker lit norsk
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10:13:43 <thematrixeatsyou> Conventional wisdom says Linux is incredibly stable. Always skeptical, we decided to put that claim to the test over a 10-month period. In our test, we ran Caldera Systems OpenLinux, Red Hat Linux, and Windows NT Server 4.0 with Service Pack 3 on duplicate 100MHz Pentium systems with 64MB of memory. Ever since we first booted up our test systems in January, network requests have been sent to each server in parallel for standa
10:14:44 <nooga> caldera and rad het
10:17:56 <thematrixeatsyou> "Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht frist and lsat ltteer is at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by itslef but the wrod as a wlohe."
10:18:54 <nooga> i knew ppl who were reading by letter
10:19:21 <nooga> i read something about 3 words at once ;d
10:23:08 <Razor-X> Nah. It's a similar process in more complex scripts.
10:23:20 <Razor-X> You just try and hold the ``shape'' of the word in your head.
10:24:52 <nooga> they experiment on kids
10:25:07 <nooga> and learn them whole words as symbols first
10:25:28 <Razor-X> The fastest way to read a script is to read it as a word or a letter group instead of symbol-by-symbol.
10:25:34 <nooga> theese kids in kindergarden can read faster than adults
10:26:02 <Razor-X> A lot of adults can't read at all.
10:26:03 <nooga> and then they learn letters to decipher unknown words
10:26:18 <Razor-X> The more you read, the more you hone your ability to read faster.
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10:26:42 <Razor-X> Most adults read the newspaper, do their bills, et voila. That's their excursion with words done for life.
10:27:18 <nooga> i'm recognize words as symbols and i can read 3-4 at once there's no difference if it's Polish or English
10:27:39 <Razor-X> I recognize words and letter-groups as symbols too.
10:27:51 <Razor-X> It's fascinating to see if you're learning a whole new script, like Japanese.
10:28:37 <Razor-X> I still read more-or-less character-by-character, but I've been doing it for long enough to have already made some mental word assosciations.
10:29:01 <nooga> i don't get their scripts
10:29:23 <Razor-X> It's harder in Japanese because each script is used in different ways, so you develop different assosciations for different scripts.
10:29:49 <nooga> i guess i'm too lazy even to discover that
10:29:49 <Razor-X> After long enough, most people begin to like Kanji. I do for sure.
11:18:56 <nooga> goin' to play HL2:EO
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14:31:26 <pikhq> I read every waking hour of my life. . .
14:31:51 * pikhq reads word-by-word by now. . .
14:32:35 <GregorR> I read C, C++, D, PHP, Perl, Python, JavaScript, etc block-by-block.
14:32:43 <GregorR> But I read English letter-by-letter.
14:33:48 <pikhq> I read Tcl in roughly the same way it's parsed by tclsh.
14:34:20 <GregorR> That's probably fairly bad :-P
14:34:40 <GregorR> Unless your tokenization is more heady.
14:35:22 <pikhq> puts [set foo [lappend {What?} [set bar "It's not that bad!"]]]
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16:11:52 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm examining "mechanique". It has a pretty unique model in some respects.
16:15:31 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. The simplicity of the model is perfect for text adventures, but would make conventional computation clumsy. With a few modifications and extensions, it could be a simple, useful language.
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17:14:26 <ihope> So Alice has qubits X and Y, and Bob has qubit Z, and we know that |YZ> = (|00> + |11>)/sqrt 2.
17:14:49 <fizzie> Mallory, a malicious adversary.
17:15:29 <ihope> Alice performs CNOT with X as control and Y as target, then performs Hadamard on X.
17:15:47 <ihope> She then measures X and Y, and sends the results to Bob, who does something.
17:34:35 <ihope> Anyway, the only thing actually sent between Alice and Bob is two classical bits, and I don't think Mallory can construct a qubit with those.
17:34:54 <ihope> Maybe the two bits are completely random, making them completely useless to Mallory.
17:36:43 <ihope> If quantum teleportation is secure like this, then surely this one quantum cryptography thing is useless...
17:37:24 <ihope> Quantum teleportation sends qubits by sending bits, and quantum cryptography sends bits by sending qubits and other bits.
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18:31:31 <kipple> hmm. isn't that how you get EgoBot to list his languages?
18:31:49 <pikhq> EgoBot must have died again.
18:36:04 -!- EgoBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:36:16 <GregorR> Weird, it just stopped getting any input ...
18:36:49 -!- EgoBot has joined.
18:36:59 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
18:37:02 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
18:45:23 <pikhq> EgoBot isn't very robust, is it?
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21:55:22 <pikhq> And Dimensifuck is now implemented.
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23:02:23 <GregorR-W> I have a firey, burning hatred for both of you.
23:06:17 <ihope> Razor-X: I got the first half of that...
23:08:24 <ihope> I got the last character of that.
23:25:19 <pikhq> http://chztek.no-ip.com/hosted.php?dir=dimensifuck%2F The current Dimensifuck implementation.
23:33:49 * pikhq is currently trying to fix some bugs
23:33:54 <GregorR> Does the included .dim program make any output?
23:33:59 <pikhq> GregorR-W: You need to install numarray. . .
23:34:07 <pikhq> The included .dim program is borken.
23:34:10 <GregorR> OK, I'm not a complete idiot, yeesh.
23:34:22 <GregorR> GEE, IT SAID UNABLE TO FIND MODULE NUMARRAY, WHATEVER SHALL I DO?!
23:34:52 <pikhq> http://nickv111.is-a-geek.com/~pikhq/Madness.dim
23:37:18 <GregorR-W> (pikhq has *.intel.com blocked :P )
23:37:25 <pikhq> http://nickv111.is-a-geek.com:8080/~pikhq/Madness.dim
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00:01:04 <pikhq> It only does 2 of the infinite dimensions.
00:01:29 <GregorR-W> I find the term "infinite" highly inaccurate :P
00:01:49 <pikhq> It's only infinite on proper Turing machines.
00:02:06 <pikhq> Sadly, the infinite storage medium is a bit difficult to make.
00:02:45 <pikhq> Also difficult is addressing it on modern architectures. ;)
00:03:06 <GregorR-W> Wow, Oerjan sure made a lot o' changes today.
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00:18:47 <pikhq> Ah. It's just the code to read in the code array that's borken.
00:18:55 <pikhq> I'll fix it if/when I get around to it.
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00:48:00 <ihope> !bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<<<<<<.
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00:49:07 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon cat reload
00:49:09 <EgoBot> 2 EgoBot: daemon EgoBot reload
00:49:24 <ihope> !bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<[.<]
00:49:39 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon cat reload
00:49:41 <EgoBot> 2 EgoBot: daemon EgoBot reload
00:49:51 <ihope> !bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<.[<.]
00:50:19 <ihope> !bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<.[<.[-]+]
00:50:46 <pikhq> !cat Ow! Going outside of my array hurts!
00:50:49 <EgoBot> Ow! Going outside of my array hurts!
00:50:57 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon cat reload
00:50:59 <EgoBot> 2 EgoBot: daemon EgoBot reload
00:51:36 <ihope> !bf <<<<++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
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00:53:22 <GregorR-W> I found a google search string for me that returns only results I want it to return:
00:53:23 <GregorR-W> "gregor richards" -esoteric -affero -wesnoth -klik -digitalmars -python -HPUX -gdc -savannah -graphviz -flightgear -mplayer -myspace -freeciv -esolang -jesus -befunge
00:55:52 <pikhq> So, that only returns results about what you actually *do*?
00:56:21 <pikhq> Or does it return nothing? :p
00:57:45 <GregorR> It's all focussed on DirectNet, OBLISK and Giki :P
00:58:33 <pikhq> Ah. The important stuff.
00:58:52 <GregorR-W> It also cuts pages upon pages off the results :(
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01:17:00 <pikhq> It's just a syntax error in my input code.
01:17:47 <pikhq> !EgoBot laughs loudly at pikhq
01:17:49 * EgoBot laughs loudly at pikhq
01:18:28 <pikhq> 5D "Hello, world." works. ;)
01:33:56 <ihope> Ah... Esoteric File Archive.
01:34:47 <pikhq> Also have a nice, small proof of Turing completeness.
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03:35:22 <pikhq> Having connection issues, Rodger?
03:37:26 <GregorR> /msg nickserv ghost RodgerTheGreat myp4sswurdsux
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04:28:24 <pikhq> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=213#comic
04:29:16 <RodgerTheGreat> man, I have no idea what's up with my connection. I may restart my router if this persists.
04:30:05 <pikhq> I may apply 240V to your router.
04:30:25 <pikhq> ROM chips just *love* 240V. ;)
04:30:28 * GregorR finally updates his hats page.
04:34:09 <RodgerTheGreat> just a general note- if I disconnect, I'm playing with my router.
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04:34:44 <GregorR> <Router> No, don't touch me there!
04:35:31 <pikhq> You're molesting the router!
04:36:07 <GregorR> Nobody seems interested in my new hats :P
04:36:30 <pikhq> I don't have a hat fetish, and I'm not gay; sorry.
04:37:25 <pikhq> Draw your hat in Dimensifuck. :p
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04:45:23 <pikhq> My offer for the 240V across any 2 pins still stands.
05:14:03 <RodgerTheGreat> so... anything interesting going on with any of you guys?
05:14:29 <pikhq> Proving that oo + 1 > oo?
05:16:42 <pikhq> Trying to figure out why the fuck my ribs are starting to hurt?
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14:35:39 <ihope> I just realized that F-TR1 or whatever it was is closely related with the ordinal numbers.
14:36:11 <ihope> So let's forget about F-TR1 and just note that you can't decrease an ordinal number forever.
14:46:31 <ihope> So if a function must decrease an ordinal number every time it loops, it can't loop forever.
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15:56:01 * pikhq thinks of something to write in Dimensifuck. . .
15:57:18 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: take a shot at writing a fibonacci sequence program.
15:59:26 <pikhq> Or do the Towers of Hanoi. . . With a *recursive* algorithm. ;)
15:59:46 <RodgerTheGreat> granted, it's not easy in BF, but it's been done before, so we know it's possible.
15:59:57 * ihope types http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Dimensifuck here because he doesn't feel like typing it into his address bar
16:00:32 * pikhq should write that article
16:00:48 * pikhq should also figure out somewhere to host the Python implementation
16:00:52 <RodgerTheGreat> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/DoubleFuck <- :D
16:01:11 <RodgerTheGreat> if you need hosting, I have some friends that could help out.
16:02:10 <pikhq> Actually, I should probably wait for my friend to get back on; it's written by him, and I'd like to remind him to actually put the GPL notice on it. ;)
16:08:06 -!- kipple has joined.
16:08:51 <pikhq> Perhaps a quine? :p
16:08:56 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.instructables.com/id/EOK8P9AMGZEP286R07/?ALLSTEPS <- very cool
16:09:36 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't see how a quine is supposed to be easier than writing a fibo generator, but ok...
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16:41:07 <pikhq> Seems that dimensifuck.py is under the Zlib license. . .
16:42:03 <GregorR-W> 1) Thou shalt not hold any compression algorithm above me.
16:42:47 <pikhq> It's rather simple, and GPL compatible. . .
16:43:03 <GregorR-W> 2) Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the compression above.
16:43:10 * pikhq makes his patches to dimensifuck.py GPLed.
16:43:17 <GregorR-W> 3) Thou shalt not swear falsely by the name of zlib.
16:43:34 <GregorR-W> 4) Remember the compression ratio and keep it holy.
16:43:46 <GregorR-W> 5) Thou shalt honor your copyright and your license.
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16:47:34 <pikhq> http://chztek.no-ip.com/hosted.php?dir=dimensifuck%2F
16:47:59 <pikhq> There. Copy that directory over while Steve's desktop is still on.
16:49:06 <RodgerTheGreat> I'll roll everything up in a zip, and then host the .py by itself in addition to the ZIP.
16:51:02 <pikhq> Also, put test.py out with dimensifuck.py. It's currently being used to actually start the Dimensifuck interpreter (dimensifuck.py just includes the Dimensifuck class, and no code for actually using it)
16:53:59 <pikhq> Now to write the Esolangs page.
16:54:30 <RodgerTheGreat> remember, the zip contains the python files as well, I just uploaded the pythons separately so that you could link to the source.
17:14:30 <pikhq> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Dimensifuck
17:57:24 <Razor-X> That's what you get for not writing your own interpreter, bub :P.
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20:39:23 <kipple> pikhq: is it you who made Dimensifuck?
20:40:00 <Razor-X> pikhq and his flawed topological space.
20:40:15 <pikhq> It's me; Rodger gave me some help with it, and my friend Nick gave me the original idea.
20:40:43 <Razor-X> Read the logs for the Big Argument (TM).
20:40:43 <kipple> ok. I just noticed there is no credit in the wiki article.
20:40:58 <Razor-X> I'm gonna try and make BeFunge 2D equivalents of your Dimensif*** programs :P.
20:41:28 <pikhq> Go ahead; I don't have any programs that actually take advantage of the dimensionality of it all yet.
20:41:38 <pikhq> They all might as well be 2D.
20:41:50 <pikhq> And some of them *are*.
20:46:19 <Razor-X> You can reduce *any* dimensionality to 2D, so :P.
20:49:58 <pikhq> Well, yes. . . It'd take quite a bit more work if I bothered using the >2D features. ;)
20:51:17 <RodgerTheGreat> you should really add some credit lines to the wiki entry- you deserve a plug for creating it.
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21:29:35 <Razor-X> Do I get credit for bringing up my counterpoint?
21:30:42 <Razor-X> We should make a daemon in EgoBot and use it as a quotebot.
21:31:35 <Razor-X> Add file support to Glass!
21:32:40 <GregorR-W> I'll be the first one to echo > /etc/passwd
22:10:59 -!- RodgerTheGreat has changed nick to RodgerTheAfk.
22:11:42 <Razor-X> You con't do cat /etc/passwd; cat /etc/shadow for us? :(.
22:15:04 <GregorR-W> I'm a destructive black-hat, not an intrusive black-hat.
22:21:02 <pikhq> That's usually called a *lack* of principles.
22:21:46 <GregorR-W> Destruction is more polite than intrusion.
22:22:04 <GregorR-W> Still negative politeness, but less so than intrusion :P
22:22:27 * lament destroys your mom, then
22:24:13 <Razor-X> This isn't public. This is IRC.
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00:03:12 <ihope> Isn't IRC greatly public?
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00:23:21 <ihope> Well, a new conversation hasn't really started yet.
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02:06:05 * ihope feels immensely proud of ##quantum despite the fact that there's pretty much nobody in it
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06:43:10 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
06:43:11 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
07:03:22 <Razor-X> Why not name the language HelloWorld?
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12:24:53 <Keymaker> anyone know what could be the problem? i've written a sceql interpreter in C, but for some reason when i print ints pp and ql by using "printf("Program pointer: %i. Queue length: %i.\n"),pp,ql;", it prints out "Program pointer: 4198928. Queue length: 37814112." no matter what the values are
12:25:11 <Keymaker> and those definitely aren't the value, as far as i know
12:26:23 <fizzie> Your ) is in the wrong place.
12:26:30 <Keymaker> i just fixed that a second ago :)
12:26:38 <fizzie> I just looked at this a second ago. :p
13:07:17 <Keymaker> btw, i redesigned my esolang page yesterday/tomorrow.. http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/index.php?page=index
13:08:03 <Keymaker> looks probably less horrible to those who didn't like the previous one. also, a lot easier to update as stuff is now read from text files.
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16:21:15 <GregorR-W> DAMN YOU PEOPLE IN THE NEXT CUBE DOWN SHUT THE F*** UP I HATE YOU WHY WON'T YOU DIE
16:24:22 <Razor-X> I just got 936 kB/s on a torrent. I am happy.
16:24:29 <ihope> There's a lot of damning going on in #nethack, too.
16:24:38 <ihope> <twobitsprite> ihope: damn!
16:28:08 <pikhq> It could be if the guy in the next cube also was into Esolangs.
16:28:28 <GregorR-W> She's female, so we know she isn't :-P
16:29:55 * pikhq hands Razor-X a sledgehammer
16:44:24 -!- ihope has changed nick to ihope|unidentifi.
16:44:31 -!- ihope|unidentifi has changed nick to ihope.
16:45:55 <ihope> Boom: now only I can change the topic of ##quantum.
16:52:49 <GregorR-W> Razor-X apparently has not experienced the cubicle maze :P
16:53:38 <Razor-X> But why is pikhq in a cubicle?
16:53:46 <Razor-X> (That was my original question.)
16:54:28 <GregorR-W> Razor-X also didn't read the context of that :P
16:54:36 <GregorR-W> Note my screaming message above :P
16:55:53 <kipple> anybody know who's behind the esolang contest? The article on the wiki just says contact "me" on #esoteric...
16:56:14 <ihope> Look in the history to see who put it there :-)
16:57:52 <ihope> user-3cf84fq.dsl.mindspring.com...
16:58:04 <GregorR-W> ===Razor-X <n=user@user-11fa5b3.dsl.mindspring.com> “unknown”
16:58:25 <pikhq> 09:57 [freenode] -!- Razor-X [n=user@user-11fa5b3.dsl.mindspring.com]
16:58:25 <pikhq> 09:57 [freenode] -!- ircname : unknown
16:58:25 <pikhq> 09:57 [freenode] -!- channels : #vhdl @##otaku #esoteric
16:58:25 <pikhq> 09:57 [freenode] -!- server : irc.freenode.net [http://freenode.net/]
16:58:25 <pikhq> 09:57 [freenode] -!- : is identified to services
16:58:27 <pikhq> 09:57 [freenode] -!- End of WHOIS
16:58:40 <pikhq> Behold! The power of whois!
16:58:49 <ihope> Razor-X's IP address is currently 66.245.21.99...
17:00:05 <kipple> well then, Raxor-X, I have two questions for you
17:00:14 <kipple> When will the contest start?
17:00:25 <kipple> And why aren't you in the comittee?
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17:19:09 <Razor-X> ハロウ! Interested in the contest, eh?
17:19:30 <Razor-X> I'll be away most of the day, since I'm watching something.
17:20:18 <Razor-X> I thought it understood that I'm already there.
17:20:32 <Razor-X> I'm going to try and get the miniscule committee to meet and decide on a date today. That's what I was hoping anyways.
17:20:56 <Razor-X> Are you the other committee member?
17:21:33 <RodgerTheGreat> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/2006_Esolang_Contest#Committee
17:22:08 <Razor-X> ``Sex Addicts Needed -- For Romantic, Casual Relationship'' No.
17:22:58 <Razor-X> Sorry, I was reading off a very stupid ad.
17:23:20 <Razor-X> Wooh. You must've added your name in the last few days. No, I need to also take in account Claudio Calvelli.
17:23:36 <lament> ah, that kind of relationship.
17:24:02 <Razor-X> I don't know if lament is part of the committee, or just waiting for a coup d'etat.
17:24:44 <Razor-X> Anyhow. I wish that guy had IRC, but oh well.
17:24:53 <RodgerTheGreat> it looks like we currently have enough people to actually hold the contest, though, so this is good.
17:25:10 <Razor-X> We have *lots* of participants, and that's good. I'm just worried if the committee can handle it.
17:25:27 <RodgerTheGreat> well, judging can take place over the course of several days.
17:25:41 <GregorR-W> It'll be fine, 50% max will actually submit programs.
17:25:50 <Razor-X> When we announce the dates, we also have to assign people to their languages in a registration list.
17:26:12 <RodgerTheGreat> I mean, I'm going to want to read up on any unusual languages used before I try to decide what kind of score a program should get.
17:26:35 <kipple> why not let people choose a language _after_ the tasks have been decided...
17:26:50 <Razor-X> Because then people get an unfair advantage.
17:27:03 <kipple> why? it would be the same for all
17:27:05 <Razor-X> The goal is to keep people blinded about the task they will receive.
17:27:25 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah- if it's "Make the smallest possible quine", everybody'll want to do it with HQ9+. :)
17:27:28 <kipple> but it will probably lead to fewer submissions
17:27:43 <Razor-X> It's like RodgerTheGreat said :P.
17:28:07 <Razor-X> When you choose to compete in a language, you are competing for *profficiency* at the language.
17:28:11 <RodgerTheGreat> also, there's the problem of people *creating* languages that are particularly suited to a task.
17:28:14 <kipple> I thought there were supposed to be separate tasks for each language. I
17:28:38 <lament> May I comment on the whole contest thing.
17:28:45 <lament> I think it kinda sucks a bit.
17:28:49 <Razor-X> There will be. The reason being that Task X maybe easy to code in Language A, while Task Y is a lot harder, but easier in Language B.
17:28:59 <lament> I think the Essies were really cool, and this contest won't be.
17:29:10 <Razor-X> When was the last time we had the Essies? ;)
17:29:32 <RodgerTheGreat> I think we should have 5 or 6 different "tasks" and then award points for completing each one in your language.
17:30:20 <Razor-X> Gregor proposed to remove Malbolge from the list. Is that alright? Since if there's only one competitor, he will win by default.
17:30:49 <RodgerTheGreat> It worked like that at a programming competition I went to once- you could choose between C, VB, Java, etc, and then they gave you a pile of 12 challenges and a certain amount of time to work.
17:31:11 <lament> I think people are missing much of the point with this contest :(
17:31:28 <lament> Obfuscation is penalized?? WTF?!
17:31:38 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, the problem is coming up with a fair way to reward working with harder languages and doing cool tricks.
17:31:42 <Razor-X> lament: The code is meant to be reusable.
17:31:58 <Razor-X> lament: I can make really hard to read BF code, or somewhat simpler BF code.
17:32:00 <kipple> lament: not every contest needs to be about obfuscation
17:32:29 <RodgerTheGreat> we could also go with the "science fair" model, by just letting people create a cool program of their choice that showcases their language, and then judge on quality and innovation.
17:32:33 <lament> it's an esoteric programming contest that tries very hard to not be an esoteric programming contest
17:32:48 <kipple> esoteric programming != obfuscation
17:33:38 * lament considers shooting the committee members before the revolution actually comes
17:34:04 * GregorR-W considers that lament has made no legitimate argument other than his opinion that esoteric programming == obfuscated programming
17:34:07 <lament> kipple: what's esoteric programming?
17:34:17 <lament> GregorR-W: that is not my opinion.
17:34:22 <kipple> programming in an esoteric programming language (IMHO)
17:34:43 <RodgerTheGreat> obfuscated programming *can* be esoteric, but esoteric languages are not inherently obfuscated.
17:34:52 <Razor-X> An esoteric programming language is a computer programming language designed to experiment with weird ideas, to be hard to program in, or as a joke, rather than for practical use.
17:35:27 <Razor-X> I copied and pasted the Wiki definition :P.
17:35:40 <kipple> it's ok. its public domain ;)
17:35:55 <ihope> So you don't have enough committee members?
17:36:10 <lament> I believe "experimentation with weird ideas" is central to esoteric programming.
17:36:28 <RodgerTheGreat> it looks the the committee currently consists of 4 people.
17:36:58 <kipple> that's very unrealistic I think. Then there would hardly be anyone left to participate
17:37:12 <RodgerTheGreat> Razor-X: add yourself to the list, and then add a notice that says we're looking for that number.
17:37:25 <Razor-X> We have like.... 15 contest members.
17:37:50 <RodgerTheGreat> if gregor is right (and I think he is) that means we're looking at roughly 6-7 submissions.
17:37:52 <kipple> lament: true, but I don't see why obfuscation necessarily has to be a part of it
17:37:54 <Razor-X> I added that I'm looking for 5-10, and I thought I'm implicitly part of the committee.
17:38:07 <lament> kipple: i never said obfuscation was necessary
17:38:26 <RodgerTheGreat> four people can easily handle 1-2 submissions each (or 7, if we're each looking at all of them).
17:38:28 <lament> kipple: this contest does not encourage experimentation with weird ideas. It encourages writing libraries.
17:38:44 <lament> kipple: obfuscation is in the spirit of esoteric programming; writing libraries is not
17:38:46 <kipple> you may be right, but until we see the actual tasks how can you know?
17:38:49 <ihope> "If you intend to join the committee you must have coding experience!"
17:38:55 <ihope> How much coding experience?
17:39:00 <lament> kipple: because that's what the page claims.
17:39:07 <Razor-X> Enough to work with BF programs.
17:39:50 <ihope> I guess I can do that.
17:40:12 <ihope> But why do I need coding experience? Just what'll I be doing?
17:40:23 <Razor-X> Looking at the code of the program?
17:40:25 <kipple> removing Malbolge will probably make joining the comittee less intimidating
17:40:39 <Razor-X> I mean, if you've never coded in your life..........
17:40:47 <pikhq> I say anyone who submits Malbolge wins by default.
17:40:50 <ihope> I've written a few things.
17:41:20 <RodgerTheGreat> kipple raises a good point- I'm not sure how qualified I'd be to cryptanalyze somebody's malbolge source. Even if it was Dis, I'd have some difficulty.
17:41:36 <Razor-X> Oh. I forgot to add in that clause.....
17:42:01 <Razor-X> I wanted to add that Malbolge programs will be judged only on ``Wow''-ness, and no task will be given for Malbolge programs.
17:42:59 <RodgerTheGreat> If someone submits a BF interpreter written in malbolge, they will not only win by default- I shall worship them as a god.
17:43:33 <RodgerTheGreat> say something about bonus points for proving turing completeness in an unconfirmed language.
17:44:01 <Razor-X> Wait. Are we going to allow any language to enter?
17:44:36 <RodgerTheGreat> well, do you want this to be "science-fair style", or "challenge based"?
17:44:55 <kipple> the wiki article is challenge based
17:44:55 <Razor-X> Let's take a vote, miaj kunlaboraj amikoj.
17:45:14 <Razor-X> My fellow commitee member friends.
17:45:52 <pikhq> Woohoo! I understood Razor's Esperanto!
17:46:11 <RodgerTheGreat> I vote for "Science Fair", because it'll allow people to be creative and push boundaries in their favorite languages.
17:47:06 <Razor-X> How about... you have 30 minutes to vote, ne?
17:47:26 <Razor-X> So we can compensate for afk/brb/bbiab/bbias/random-away-acronym-ness.
17:47:32 <ihope> 30 minutes from... wait, what?
17:47:52 <lament> maybe a day rather than 30 minutes?
17:47:57 <Razor-X> 30 minutes from now to vote whether you want a Science Fair style competition or a Challenge based competition.
17:47:59 * ihope welds GregorR-W's vote into place
17:48:15 <lament> use the topic to keep the interim vote
17:48:30 <Razor-X> Can someone add this into the Proposed Rule Changes heading in the Wiki.
17:51:10 <ihope> What if "science fair" is just one of the tasks assigned?
17:52:15 <ihope> Write an iterating quine, write a Thue interpreter, write anything?
17:52:43 <Razor-X> Votes will be due by 18:00 Aug. 10th, UTC.
17:53:04 <RodgerTheGreat> ihope: it might make the competition more balanced, but the rules/judging could get really complex.
17:56:27 * pikhq is doing a little talk about esolangs at the LUG next week, BTW. . .
17:57:23 <ihope> Would there be multiple tasks in each language otherwise?
17:58:29 <RodgerTheGreat> if we went with "Science Fair", we could post some suggested tasks if people were having trouble coming up with ideas, I guess.
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18:00:38 <ihope> If they would have trouble coming up with ideas, then sticking with goals would probably be a good idea.
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18:24:51 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, Razor-X- I was looking at your addition to the wiki. I think you meant "...Instead, the *contestants* will decide on a set of tasks and present those..."
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18:28:46 <Keymaker> that writing obfuscated code shouldn't lower points, for instance
18:28:58 <Keymaker> and that this competion doesn't allow much creativity
18:31:08 <Keymaker> code that anyone can easily use is not very esoteric :)
18:32:55 * GregorR-W deletes the Brainfuck Algorithms page.
18:37:35 <Keymaker> i guess you would like esoteric programming to be nothing but having a translator for each language that converts C to that language.. :P seriously, an esolang competition entry isn't supposed to be reusable or easy to understand, you can't deny that. and even more seriously, i wonder why i'm even writing this. :)
18:43:12 <Keymaker> and, i second the idea of having the same tasks for all languages, in case that proposed rule change at esowiki meant that.
18:44:54 <GregorR-W> Hm, lemme see if I understand this ...
18:45:38 <ihope> I think it meant that contestants could submit whatever sorts of things they wanted.
18:45:48 <GregorR-W> <Keymaker> The contest will suck, it's a bad idea. And yet I choose to support a proposed rule change that makes it less like I say it should be.
18:45:49 <ihope> As long as it's readable and all that, of course.
18:50:44 <Keymaker> i'm sorry gregorr, i probably was out of my mind for a few seconds. i can't find anything indicating you'd support the reusability and non-obfuscated idea
18:53:15 <Razor-X> The Proposed Rule Changes heading is there for a reason. Not so that this turns into a committee brawl :P.
18:54:08 <GregorR-W> This contest is not about obfuscated code. There have been enough contests about obfuscated code. I like the concept of it /not/ being about obfuscated code.
18:54:16 <GregorR-W> There's nothing wrong with obfuscated code, but there are other things out there.
18:54:33 <Keymaker> hmm. so, what do you want to see?
18:54:48 <Razor-X> Obfuscation is not the same thing as Esoteric.
18:55:11 <Keymaker> i know, but it has always been rather close to it, mostly due nature of many langs
18:55:31 <Razor-X> Which is also why I think turing tarpits are getting a bit annoying.
18:55:36 <Keymaker> and to get a shortest code, as often in esolang related competition, requires clever obfuscation
18:55:46 <Razor-X> The shortest code *without* obfuscation.
18:56:08 <Keymaker> but obfuscation is what makes esolangs so good......
18:56:11 <Razor-X> In normal code, if you can use an && in an if condition instead of two if's, it's more concise, while not being obfuscated.
18:56:29 <Keymaker> (ok, there are other things too..)
18:56:38 <Razor-X> Why not call it the Obfuscated Languages then?
18:56:49 <ihope> if a then if b then c else d else if e then f else g
18:56:49 <lament> You people are sooo missing the point :(
18:56:53 <lament> it almost makes me cry
18:57:46 * ihope shoots Razor-X slightly
18:58:00 <Razor-X> Hey... it's not alright to hit/harm a girl.
18:58:02 <lament> it's not about obfuscation
18:58:10 <lament> it's about this contest not being in the spirit of esoteric programming
18:58:30 <Razor-X> Well... it seems the community is at a split about this universal spirit ;).
18:59:07 <lament> specifically, it seems to encourage mundane things like 'readability' and not esoteric things like 'fun'
18:59:16 <lament> very much unlike the Essies.
18:59:23 <ihope> Isn't it fun to write readable code, sortA?
18:59:47 <Razor-X> What's the difficulty in writing unreadable code? :P.
18:59:49 <lament> ihope: fun, but not esoteric.
19:00:06 <lament> Compare and contrast with the Essies
19:00:08 <ihope> Well, hey, maybe this contest just isn't about being esoteric, eh?
19:00:16 <GregorR-W> Or rather, esoteric.find(unreadable) != esoteric.end()
19:00:16 <ihope> GregorR-W: pretty much, yeah.
19:00:22 <Razor-X> How about this being a Non-esoteric contest for the competition of esoteric languages?
19:00:32 <lament> Razor-X: yes. that's exactly what it is.
19:00:47 <Razor-X> I think there've been enough esoteric contests.
19:01:09 <Razor-X> In languages where the very nature *is* to be esoteric, isn't the difficulty to make it non-esoteric?
19:01:39 <lament> GregorR-W: I said at least three times that this has nothing to do with obfuscation
19:01:55 <lament> GregorR-W: and everything with the intent
19:02:13 <GregorR-W> I haven't said "obfuscation" in quite a few minutes ...
19:02:20 <lament> The intent of the Essies was wacky esoteric fun. The main task was "the most entertaining toy/language"
19:02:35 <Razor-X> Well... who's stopping the Essies?
19:02:57 <Razor-X> (.... Other than a lack of community awakeness ....)
19:03:00 <lament> nobody, i'm simply lamenting the state the esoteric community is in :)
19:03:32 <Keymaker> well, i agree with lament, i'd like to see an Essie
19:03:49 <lament> if we had essies now, they would likely tank due to lack of participation
19:04:54 <lament> (and where's cpressey anyway? i heard he's working at google and all, but why would that stop him from coming here?)
19:17:39 <GregorR-W> RodgerTheGreat: The summary: <A> Complain complain complain. <B> Retort retort retort.
19:18:28 <Keymaker> i guess nothing changed, in the end
19:18:56 <GregorR-W> NOBODY LIKES ME EVERYBODY HATES ME GUESS I'LL GO EAT WORMS.
19:19:18 <RodgerTheGreat> "Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics- even if you win, you're still retarded"
19:27:17 <Keymaker> does anyone know any wiki that's easy to install?
19:30:24 <GregorR-W> (The preceeding has been a paid advertizement for Giki)
20:22:00 -!- Keymaker has left (?).
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20:48:55 * ihope waits patiently for someone to ask what he's waiting for
20:50:06 * GregorR-W encourages RodgerTheGreat not to ask ihope what he's waiting for.
20:51:03 * RodgerTheGreat considers GregorR-W's advice upon considering asking ihope what he's waiting for.
20:51:29 * ihope considers telling RodgerTheGreat what he's waiting for despite not being asked
20:51:41 * ihope decides against it
20:51:46 * GregorR-W considers killing anyone who hears what ihope is waiting for.
20:52:09 * ihope considers considering telling GregorR-W what he's waiting for
20:52:19 * RodgerTheGreat considers piercing his eardrums to avoid invoking GregorR-W's wrath.
20:52:40 * ihope decides not to tell anybody what he's waiting for, even if asked
20:53:27 * ihope threatens GregorR-W with /ignorance
20:53:50 <GregorR-W> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"ihope: What are you waiting for?"(_o)o.?]}
20:53:53 <EgoBot> ihope: What are you waiting for?
20:55:31 * RodgerTheGreat 's third-person narrative meter pegs and starts emitting smoke.
20:56:41 <ihope> You can just disable CTCP...
21:05:51 -!- ivan` has joined.
21:07:57 <GregorR-W> I get the feeling that some wikipedia article(s) is/are about to be deleted.
21:08:03 <GregorR-W> I don't know where I got that premonition from.
21:08:25 <GregorR-W> Some article(s) related to esoteric programming, even.
21:10:02 <GregorR-W> I have no idea, but I'll bet ivan`!ivan@wikipedia/ivan knows :P
21:11:46 <ihope> That's i=ivan, there, not just ivan...
21:11:51 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:11:52 <ihope> How'd he do that, eh?
21:12:00 <GregorR-W> I believe that has to do with whether you're identified.
21:12:19 -!- CXI has joined.
21:12:33 -!- ihope has changed nick to ihope|noLongerId.
21:12:37 -!- ihope|noLongerId has changed nick to ihope.
21:13:06 <GregorR-W> Maybe it has to do with whether you're Incredibly-hax0rish or a Newbie.
21:14:09 <ihope> Or maybe whether your ident daemon is working?
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22:08:12 * ihope flips the status of Schoedinger's Cat in the topic of ##quantum back and forth a few times
22:10:36 <RodgerTheGreat> but determining it's status as dead could've affected the outcome.
22:20:29 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o lament.
22:20:59 * lament wonders what random mode to set
22:21:12 -!- lament has set channel mode: -c.
22:21:31 -!- lament has set channel mode: +c.
22:21:35 -!- lament has set channel mode: +o ihope.
22:21:52 <lament> I BLAME IHOPE!! I"M NOT RESPONSIBLE!!!
22:21:53 <ihope> Um, you just turned off the color filter, and on again...
22:21:54 -!- lament has set channel mode: -o lament.
22:22:16 * ihope thinks for half a second, then points the gun at RodgerTheGreat
22:22:34 -!- ihope has set channel mode: +o RodgerTheGreat.
22:22:36 -!- ihope has set channel mode: -o ihope.
22:23:07 <lament> at least in Befunge it does.
22:23:23 <ihope> In NetHack, @ is usually you.
22:23:30 <ihope> Therefore, you are RodgerTheGreat.
22:23:43 <lament> no, in Nethack @ is usually the wizard of yendor
22:23:54 <ihope> If you're playing the Wizard of Yendor, yes.
22:24:05 <ihope> Or there are lots and lots of him.
22:24:24 <RodgerTheGreat> I thought "The Amulet of Yendor" was the goal in rogue.
22:25:10 <ihope> Getting it and getting out, I think.
22:25:20 <lament> amulet shmamulet. the goal is to polymorph into a grid bug.
22:29:11 <ihope> So what happens if you try to join ##quantum now?
22:30:37 <lament> and too lazy to unban myself.
22:31:27 -!- Razor-X has left (?).
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22:41:25 <pikhq> The goal is to not die so quickly that you don't even get to figure out these "side quests" of which you speak (I suck at nethack).
22:42:14 <Razor-X> Start out with an easier race/class combination then.
22:43:24 <Razor-X> Valkyrie/Rogue? Valkyrie/Warrior ?
22:43:43 <ihope> Valkyrie is a class, not a race.
22:43:46 <lament> Razor-X: obviously you have never played Nethack.
22:43:51 <ihope> And there's no Warrior class.
22:44:07 <Razor-X> Whatever the Warrior class is then :P.
22:44:55 <Razor-X> I haven't played a different character in like... a year.
22:46:29 <Razor-X> Vampires are fun but hard. But only Slash'Em. I wasn't that big a fan of Nethack, (but I ascended once, so whatever) but before I tried Slash'Em I prefered the Moria-derivatives.
22:46:38 <Razor-X> Nope. I dun play anywhere but locally.
22:50:55 * pikhq died hallucinating
22:51:11 <Razor-X> 99% of the time I die hungry :P.
22:51:27 <pikhq> I eat the corpses. >:D
22:51:38 <Razor-X> I *have* to eat the corpses.
22:51:49 <Razor-X> Vampires can't eat rations or anything like that, and can only suck blood from the corpses.
22:51:53 <pikhq> I. . . I. . . I killed my kitten! HOW?!?
22:52:05 <Razor-X> If you don't suck the blood from your fallen enemy in one turn, it coagulates.
22:52:34 <pikhq> No Points Name Hp [max]
22:52:37 <pikhq> 1 770 pikhq-Wiz-Elf-Mal-Cha died in The Gnomish Mines on
22:52:40 <pikhq> level 3. Killed by a hallucinogen-distorted gnome. - [20]
22:52:50 <Razor-X> Nethack has mines on level 3?
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23:28:14 -!- ihope has changed nick to {.
23:28:32 <{> Well, it's not "very" valid, but at least it's sort of valid.
23:28:34 -!- { has changed nick to ihope.
23:43:17 <GregorR-W> OK, taking votes: When/if I add script support to DirectNet, what shoul the [first?] supported language be? On the table are at least Python, Lua and Perl.
23:45:44 <ihope> The directnet.us DirectNet?
23:45:47 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:45:48 <GregorR-W> ihope: http://directnet.sourceforge.net/
23:46:05 <GregorR-W> Maybe I need to change the name to a less overloaded namespace :P
23:46:51 <GregorR-W> Yeah, those are sure to be FAR less overloaded.
23:47:02 <ihope> HimNet, HerNet, ItNet, ThemNet?
23:47:18 <ihope> ThemNet is hardly used at all.
23:48:47 <ihope> I think you'd have to settle for something that's not descriptive, eh?
23:49:13 <GregorR-W> OK, the vote is not on the name :P
23:54:00 <GregorR-W> Does RodgerTheGreat have ops or is my client fegged?
23:58:54 <ihope> ChanServ ops lament, lament ops me, lament deops himself, I op RodgerTheGreat, I deop myself...
00:03:27 -!- ihope has changed nick to ihope`.
00:03:49 -!- ihope` has changed nick to ihopr.
00:03:52 -!- ihopr has changed nick to ihope.
00:23:48 -!- tgwizard has quit ("Leaving").
00:26:43 <Razor-X> Basically it's a big conspiracy to op everyone but me.
00:27:27 * ihope curses at the missed oppoprunity
00:27:35 <ihope> Opportunity, even.
00:28:27 <ihope> So now you're the only one who can't have ops on ##quantum.
00:28:34 <ihope> Everybody else can.
00:33:56 <ihope> Okay, now you can have ops again.
00:36:45 <ihope> <nalioth> so type /stats p and find and /msg a staff member
00:36:52 <ihope> === p nalioth (i=nalioth@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.nalioth)
00:36:58 <ihope> === p 1 staff member
00:37:03 <Razor-X> Wait... why is Nalioth here......
00:37:35 <Razor-X> Is he gonna enter the contest?
00:38:20 <ihope> The same stuff as that at rot13.com?
00:39:04 <Razor-X> I've never been to rot13.com.
00:39:20 <Razor-X> I'm just speaking Engrish.
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00:51:29 <CakeProphet> I've got an extremly rogue idea for an esolang :D
00:51:43 <CakeProphet> In that... I have no idea what it's going to do... but I have a theme in mind
00:51:44 <GregorR-W> *snaps*, I was hoping for a rogue-like esolang ;)
00:52:32 <CakeProphet> The current "code name" for my esolang/rough-idea-that-has-no-actually-implementation-of-any-sort-at-the-moment is "CookieJar"
00:53:44 <CakeProphet> The first statement that popped into my head was "who took cookies from cookiejar" which... I have no idea what that'll actually do... but I'm pretty sure "cookiejar" is an array... while "cookies" is used to refer to any of the items in the array... while who is a wildcard for anything...
00:55:20 <Razor-X> So a shelf is an array of cookie jars?
00:55:32 <Razor-X> And a store is an array of shelves!
00:55:43 <CakeProphet> And then there could be a "mother" and "children"... which... would do something.
00:56:02 <CakeProphet> As you can see... I've thought long and hard on this one.
00:56:10 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:57:07 <CakeProphet> Well let's see... mothers fill cookie jars... which could be bytes or something... and then children take cookies from it... which is removing cookies... not sure how the bytes interact in a way to form usable code though.
00:57:17 <Razor-X> お母さん！永遠に見付けたかった、けど今見付ける。一勝に、世界を持つ！！！！
00:57:49 <CakeProphet> I don't want to make another brainfuck copy but with cookie jars instead of bytes in an array :D
00:58:06 <CakeProphet> But that idea could be mapped out to a brainfuck-esque design ^_^
00:58:09 <Razor-X> At least will you destroy all creativity by making this a turing tarpit?
00:58:27 -!- ihope has joined.
00:59:11 <CakeProphet> Er... well... I want it to be readable... and be useful and not with only 2 elements.. soooo..
01:02:14 <ihope> It's the ASCII version of the up tack, which represents the bottom type, I think.
01:02:24 <ihope> Or the value bottom, or...
01:02:57 <ihope> Yeah, but there's also a bottom type, and I think that can represent it as well.
01:03:20 <ihope> Anyway: cookies are stored on the hard drive, and they persist between sessions. Users may clear cookies at any time, and they may set any of many restrictions on setting and getting cookies.
01:03:40 <ihope> Some users disable cookies entirely, as they can be a privacy risk or something.
01:04:05 <Razor-X> Can we calculate pie to a billion places?
01:04:40 <ihope> Pie in a billion places? Sure, just get one in every six people to bake pie.
01:05:11 <CakeProphet> hmm... I think I'm going to write a programming language entirely in Whenever.
01:09:27 <ihope> So is BF the only esoteric language that's better compiled than interpreted? :-)
01:09:29 <CakeProphet> CookieJar would probably work best for event-based crap...
01:11:51 <CakeProphet> "Who stole cookies from cookiejar" "IRCtext stole cookies." "Who me? Yes you!"
01:12:17 <CakeProphet> All of those being some sort of conditional statement.
01:14:01 <CakeProphet> Such a concept would be good for IRC bots in the current idea I've got.
01:14:12 <CakeProphet> Or anything that relies on events *nodnods*
01:15:45 <ihope> Somebody oughta make a language whose syntax is English grammar, but where the apparent meanings of sentences aren't any indication of what they actually do.
01:16:16 <ihope> So "colorless green ideas sleep furiously" might mean "increment register C, then jump to the contents of register G".
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01:19:41 <CakeProphet> Thinking outside of the same old boring types of languages is a bit diffciult for me :D
01:35:25 -!- RodgerTheGreat has set channel mode: +o ihope.
01:35:33 -!- RodgerTheGreat has set channel mode: +o Razor-X.
01:35:49 -!- RodgerTheGreat has set channel mode: +o GregorR.
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01:36:51 -!- ihope has set channel mode: +oooo bsmntbombdood CakeProphet clog cmeme.
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01:38:19 <CakeProphet> Hmm..thinking up a language that doesn't follow the conventional... uh... practical languages is kind of difficult... for me anyways
01:38:34 <ihope> And that makes three channels with all members opped.
01:38:47 <ihope> RodgerTheGreat: tab completion ftw, as they say...
01:41:33 <CakeProphet> So... does everyone else hate functions just as much as I do?
01:42:03 <RodgerTheGreat> in what sense? Implementing interpreters with them, using them... ?
01:43:07 <ihope> Mathematical functions or imperative functions?
01:43:42 <CakeProphet> I love using -other peoples- functions.. for stuff like string manipulation and otherwise-much-longer-blocks-of-code stuff....
01:43:50 <CakeProphet> Programming language... er... functions? :?
01:44:09 <CakeProphet> But I'm far too lazy to make my own... and they almost never work.
01:44:11 <ihope> There are different kinds of functions used in programming.
01:44:31 <ihope> Haskell uses mathematical functions, but pretty much everything else uses imperative ones.
01:44:38 <CakeProphet> I'm guessing imperitive functions... but I hate math... so math functions probably suck even more.
01:45:08 * CakeProphet is a programmer that hates math... oh dear...
01:45:37 <ihope> Mathematical functions are just special imperative functions, namely ones that don't do anything except compute an answer and give it to you.
01:46:06 <ihope> So an input function isn't mathematical, because asking the user for something isn't computation.
01:46:29 <RodgerTheGreat> math != programming. programming *can* be about math, but it's really a pretty different thing.
01:47:03 <CakeProphet> Much different... otherwise I'd hate programming.
01:48:06 <ihope> Programming = computer science = math. >:-)
01:48:51 <CakeProphet> Fortunately I'm a n00b h4x><0R that doesn't do much but simple stuff with Python.
01:49:40 <ihope> I always thought of computer science as a mathematical thing.
01:49:49 <ihope> It's definitely not a science :-)
01:50:10 <CakeProphet> I don't really have any formal training at all.
01:51:20 <RodgerTheGreat> well, at least you started with a real language- I taught myself QBASIC.
01:51:46 <RodgerTheGreat> now I use Java and RealBASIC for most things, although I've been getting into PHP.
01:52:22 <ihope> Formal training would be nice.
01:53:37 <ihope> I think my dad taught me Pascal, then I tried to learn C, then he tried to teach me Java, then I learned Haskell, then I looked at Python.
01:53:52 <ihope> That's all the non-esoteric languages :-)
01:54:47 <ihope> I think my first functional-programming-language-like thing was lambda calculus, then my first actual language was probably Unlambda.
01:55:06 <ihope> Then I took a look at Lisp, and somehow landed with Haskell.
01:56:41 <ihope> Nobody uses functional languages.
01:56:49 <ihope> Isn't Java the big thing?
01:57:16 <CakeProphet> I like imperitive languages... which probably isn't suprising.
01:57:41 <ihope> We need a language that has every feature.
01:58:13 <CakeProphet> I could build it out of Python... just to give it insane memory demands :D
01:59:53 <ihope> It'd probably have to be dynamically typed, since static languages are more restrictive. Let people declare or infer types if they want to.
02:01:01 <CakeProphet> to create the most memory using language in existence.... so needlessly complex and unstructured that it makes absolutely no sense.
02:01:25 <ihope> Everybody wants to make the most esoteric language ever, hon.
02:01:36 <ihope> And Malbolge isn't it.
02:01:53 <CakeProphet> But all those sissies with their super-brainfucks... and small compilers... pfft... that's not esoteric anymore.
02:02:32 <CakeProphet> Now we need giant behemoths of insane complexity.
02:02:47 <ihope> We simply need to pack everything into one language, then insanify the syntax.
02:03:48 <ihope> To make it practical, we'd need the basics from every assembly language there is.
02:04:05 <ihope> We'd have to invent a platform for it, of course.
02:04:30 <CakeProphet> Or we could just build it off of Python... and give it insane memory usage.
02:04:36 <ihope> We'd call it the G platform, and it would run G machine code compiled from G assembler.
02:05:08 <CakeProphet> But... but I wanted to call it Surrealomancerplexocitope.
02:05:11 <ihope> Since every program would be a virtual machine, every program would need to have an operating system built in.
02:05:22 <ihope> And G is just a... well, it's changeable.
02:05:54 <CakeProphet> I like the idea of setting "otpions" for the code itself before coding...
02:06:08 <ihope> Eh, lemme do this BRB thing that everybody's talking about.
02:06:19 <CakeProphet> Say you need dynamic typing and some object oriented for this task... then you could change some paramiters in the interpreter/compiler to make it run that way.
02:11:04 <CakeProphet> Oooh... Spaghetti sounds like a cool language.
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02:14:25 <ihope_> So typing wouldn't really be necessary.
02:14:33 <ihope_> I suppose we could make users implement it.
02:15:36 <ihope_> I guess the key here is to minimize reusability and make things hard to write in general.
02:16:02 * CakeProphet likes lack of structure, intuition-ish-ness, and ease-of-use in his code.
02:16:21 <ihope_> Then again, if we're to add everything to the language, we'd have to include reusability.
02:17:07 <ihope_> What's the goal here? Is it to make programs that are very nice and readable but necessarily huge?
02:17:31 <ihope_> You know... a very readable 100000-line "Hello, world!" program that actually requires 100000 lines.
02:18:36 <Razor-X> It has a lack of structure, intuition-ish-ness, and easy-of-use.
02:18:45 <CakeProphet> Screw readability.. I just like being lazy in a hugely complex environment.
02:18:49 <Razor-X> Plus it does not nessicarily have ease of reading.
02:19:40 <Razor-X> Yup. You can screw readability if you want.
02:20:11 <ihope_> Well, the goal here seems to be "to create the most memory using language in existence.... so needlessly complex and unstructured that it makes absolutely no sense."
02:20:26 <Razor-X> You mean Perl.... er hmmm. I need to think on that.
02:20:45 <ihope_> But absolutely not yucky, like Perl is :-)
02:20:45 <Razor-X> I think you mean a marriage between Perl and Java, actually.
02:21:03 <Razor-X> Memory hogging and complex and unstructured!
02:21:05 <ihope_> My passwords are all annoying to type ;-)
02:21:25 * Razor-X is enjoying something without all of you right now.
02:21:37 <ihope_> I gotta be gone in ten minutes, by the way.
02:21:40 <Razor-X> So uh, make sure to read the Esolang Contest wiki page.
02:22:09 <CakeProphet> Hmmm... I think binary is the most esoteric of languages.
02:22:25 <Razor-X> How can you program in binary?
02:22:36 <CakeProphet> But if it were a language... it would be esoteric :D
02:23:06 <CakeProphet> You don't code in binary... that's what makes it so esoteric.
02:23:44 <ihope_> Well, I've temporarily immortalized this goal of ours in my quit message.
02:23:49 <ihope_> And with that, I'm off.
02:23:50 -!- ihope_ has quit ("Our goal: "to create the most memory using language in existence.... so needlessly complex and unstructured that it makes abs).
02:24:19 <Razor-X> *が始めます。静かになってくださいながら、私は楽みます。ありがとうございます皆さん。
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02:41:02 <CakeProphet> OOh I think... I understand now what I meant to say.
02:41:16 <CakeProphet> I meant extremly confusing to read... but extremly intuitive to type up.
03:02:45 <CakeProphet> Hmmm... I wonder what would happen if you mixed Perl with Python...
03:02:58 <CakeProphet> There's a lot of stuff I like in Python... but Perl's nifty as well... hmmm
03:05:10 <Razor-X> That's what you get when you mix Bush x Chamberlain goodness (aka English) with (Insart Horrible Thing).
03:08:49 <RodgerTheGreat> a thought occurs- what do you think about making a language whose semantics are based on the fact that aside from the first and last letter, randomizing word letters has minimal impact on comprehension?
03:09:38 <pikhq> It's not esoteric.
03:09:52 <pikhq> Computers were first programmed directly in binary.
03:10:15 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: T3h evil.
03:10:48 <Razor-X> How can you program in binary?!
03:10:56 <RodgerTheGreat> well, evil can be an excellent component of an esoteric language...
03:11:21 <pikhq> Razor-X: Same way the compiler generates bianries ("
03:11:31 <pikhq> I'm being loose with the term "binary")
03:11:31 <RodgerTheGreat> nobody programs in binary. When they do, they're really coding in binary-encoded hex. single 1's and 0's do nothing.
03:12:00 <Razor-X> pikhq: That's like saying Base-4 is a programming language.
03:13:03 * Razor-X gives CakeProphet a thumbs-up sign with her hitchiker's thumb.
03:13:21 <pikhq> Call me up when you write a friggin' OS in Dimensifuck.
03:15:45 <pikhq> It's not even Turing complete.
03:15:49 <pikhq> Maybe with Javascript.
03:16:04 * CakeProphet would fear the internet if HTML were Turing complete.
03:16:18 <CakeProphet> HTML isn't even a programming language to begin with... it was mostly a joke... :D
03:16:59 <pikhq> If Brainfuck is done in HTML, I'll eat one of Gregor's hats.
03:17:12 <GregorR> HTML isn't a programming language, it was never supposed to be a programming language, and you can't have one of my hats.
03:17:42 <pikhq> Just for that, the W3C is going to make HTML Turing complete. >_<
03:17:47 <RodgerTheGreat> you could probably make an "audience participation" interpreter with anchors and links...
03:18:20 <pikhq> That would prove the *person* Turing complete, not the language.
03:18:59 <pikhq> Imagine where we'd be if, instead of implementing if, we just had the computer display "(0 ==1): T/F".
03:19:36 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm just trying to think of any way in which pure HTML could be used to perform basic logic by itself.
03:20:36 <CakeProphet> And... I just remembered why I love coding in Python so much. ^_^
03:20:38 <pikhq> Brainfuck is more readable.
03:24:44 <GregorR> http://www.google.com/search?q=http+meta+refresh
03:25:37 <RodgerTheGreat> now, is there any way to extract form data and use it in *any* way with just HTML?
03:30:38 <RodgerTheGreat> if we could somehow store/retrieve data using forms and then create dynamic program flow using refresh meta tags, it might be possible to perform basic logic with HTML
03:34:34 <CakeProphet> @P=split//,".URRUU\c8R";@d=split//,"\nrekcah xinU / lreP rehtona tsuJ";sub p{
03:34:35 <CakeProphet> @p{"r$p","u$p"}=(P,P);pipe"r$p","u$p";++$p;($q*=2)+=$f=!fork;map{$P=$P[$f^ord
03:34:37 <CakeProphet> ($p{$_})&6];$p{$_}=/ ^$P/ix?$P:close$_}keys%p}p;p;p;p;p;map{$p{$_}=~/^[P.]/&&
03:34:38 <CakeProphet> close$_}%p;wait until$?;map{/^r/&&<$_>}%p;$_=$d[$q];sleep rand(2)if/\S/;print
03:35:33 <CakeProphet> It prints "Just another Perl / Unix hacker"
03:36:52 <pikhq> It shoulda been a Brainfuck interpreter, with the actual output code itself hidden in it.
03:37:43 <CakeProphet> I mean... I couldn't imagine thinking up that many steps to do that...
03:43:02 <CakeProphet> I think it's a pain in the ass to uh... program.
03:43:13 <Razor-X> Yeah it is a pain in the arse.
03:43:25 * CakeProphet likes Python cause he can be totally lazy with it.
03:44:54 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: What OS are you on?!?
03:45:32 <pikhq> GCC is *included* with OSX.
03:46:06 <RodgerTheGreat> by "compile", I mean make an actual, useful program, not build a console app.
03:46:47 <pikhq> My coding in OSX has been in Tcl.
03:47:09 <pikhq> Get yourself a decent OS.
03:47:19 <pikhq> Like, say, ProDOS.
03:47:44 <pikhq> But ProDOS is for Apple computers!
03:47:51 <pikhq> . . . The Apple II.
03:48:13 <pikhq> I have a recommendation, if you're that much of a DOS freak.
03:48:17 <pikhq> Ever heard of FreeDOS?
03:48:48 <RodgerTheGreat> who said I was a dos freak? I only own one computer capable of running DOS.
03:49:01 <Razor-X> Coding for X is a total pain in the ARSE.
03:49:11 <pikhq> Not with decent libraries.
03:49:22 <RodgerTheGreat> ... and I use that for running chipdisks and Outpost 2.
03:49:33 <Razor-X> You mean weak toolkits like GTK?
03:49:37 * pikhq counts things like "Python" and "Tcl" to be decent libraries :p
03:49:42 <Razor-X> Ever tried coding a window manager? (Or contributing to one?)
03:50:04 <pikhq> Hmm. You know, I should play around with the tclwm package. . .
03:50:12 <pikhq> Try coding a window manager with it.
03:51:44 <Razor-X> Good luck if you want to follow the ICCCM.
03:52:22 <Razor-X> It's worse than esoteric programming.
03:54:56 <pikhq> http://www.tcl.tk/cgi-bin/tct/tip/47.html
03:57:25 <RodgerTheGreat> esoteric programming isn't usually that hard, really, once you wrap your brain around a language. A lot of it is just tedious work and being extremely careful with your code.
03:58:39 <pikhq> Malbolge is the exception.
03:58:59 <pikhq> Wrapping your brain around it gets you sent to the mental institution fairly quickly.
04:00:59 <RodgerTheGreat> but it becomes fairly normal once you peel back the obfuscation/encryption layers.
04:01:18 <RodgerTheGreat> it's one of the languages that almost nobody can use without making some tools first.
04:01:21 <pikhq> But then it's not Malbolge.
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11:40:36 <fizzie> 13:38:01 < asiekierka> 13:37 in poland!
11:40:55 <fizzie> "My time zone seems to be different by a minute."
12:06:42 <asiekierka> so your timezone is different by HOUR+MINUTE.
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12:08:34 <fizzie> I still think there's just a minute between 13:37 and 13:38, but...
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13:40:41 <ihope> 15 ops, 7 non-ops...
13:45:05 <fizzie> There are ops? How strange.
13:50:55 <ihope> I don't suppose you'd want to op us all...
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14:48:09 <nooga> i'm currently learning norsk
14:53:42 <nooga> heh, i've just discovered > http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Computing_department
14:59:48 -!- ihope has set channel mode: +oo nooga RodgerTheGreat.
15:00:14 <ihope> Would "norsk" be Norwegian?
15:05:53 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokm%C3%A5l
15:06:58 <nooga> there's also nynorsk
15:07:19 <ihope> "The plural is written with the letter s regardless of whether it is pronounced as an [s], as in cats, or as a [z], as in dogs." <- oh boy, English just got much more complicated
15:08:37 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nynorsk
15:29:56 <nooga> it's 16:29 here ;p
15:31:13 <nooga> i'm trying to think of use XNL2 as scripting language
15:33:44 <nooga> http://regedit.gamedev.pl/produkcje/biblioteki/XNL2/xnl2.html < unfortunately, it's only in polish
15:34:38 <nooga> it's an universal description language
15:35:00 <ihope> "Pomiędzy myślą w głowie człowieka, a sygnałem w elektronice komputera, pomiędzy obrazami w naszej wyobraźni a liczbami w jego pamięci, tekst jest najdoskonalszą formą komunikacji człowieka z maszyną."
15:35:31 <nooga> it's inspired by: INI, INF, RC, binary, XML, X, C++, script languages, HTML, TXT & DAT
15:35:33 <ihope> Something something something something something something something something electronic computer?
15:36:21 <nooga> maszyna -> machine
15:37:37 <nooga> elektronice komputera (elektronika komputera) -> computer's electronics
15:38:05 <ihope> "Polish is the main representative of the Lechitic branch of the West Slavic languages."
15:38:21 <ihope> "The West Slavic languages is a subdivision of the Slavic language group."
15:39:01 <ihope> "The Slavic languages [are] a subgroup of Indo-European languages."
15:39:17 <ihope> Okay, so Polish and English are both Indo-European.
15:40:46 <nooga> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Polish
15:41:09 <ihope> But I'm learning Chinese today.
15:41:13 <RodgerTheGreat> man, I wish I could just stuff the contents of wikipedia into my skull..
15:41:17 <ihope> I'll learn Polish tomorrow.
15:42:16 <ihope> Then again, I doubt Chinese is Indo-European.
15:43:06 <ihope> Actually, I'll learn Norwegian today.
15:43:10 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_language
15:43:48 <ihope> It's not Slavic or anything; it's Germanic.
15:44:09 <nooga> vil du laere norsk?
15:45:27 <ihope> Yeah, I think I will.
15:45:49 <ihope> (That was "will you learn Norwegian", right?)
15:45:57 <nooga> jeg sa ikke det :>
15:46:52 <nooga> bokmal has many similarities with english
15:47:23 <nooga> and that's right, that was "will you learn Norwegian"
15:47:40 <ihope> Okay, I can type Bokmål >:-)
15:48:25 <ihope> å = AltGr+w, æ = AltGr+z, ø = AltGr + l.
15:49:28 <ihope> How to type Norwegian.
15:49:57 <nooga> funno, i use chartable
15:50:27 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belizean_Kriol_language << lol
15:51:15 <nooga> sounds like straight from ghetto
15:51:58 <nooga> frigg/friggin - to swear (like f***) example "what di frigg? or "oh frigg" COOL!
15:52:11 <ihope> "I deh eena wah car!"
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16:09:55 <GregorR-W> Note to self: #estoeric != #esoteric
16:10:11 <GregorR-W> Gee. This channel is awfully op-y.
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16:11:43 <fizzie> At least there's some action.
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16:12:40 <Razor-X> That was an awesome display of my op powers.
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16:17:50 <kipple> what's with all the ops??
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17:17:46 <RodgerTheGreat> the logs looked like you and gregor had a faceoff of some kind.
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17:20:16 <ihope> He deopped everything, then... well, it was a joke and all that :-)
17:20:29 <ihope> And that's why the GregorRs are the only ones not opped.
17:21:10 -!- pikhq has set channel mode: +oo GregorR-W GregorR-W.
17:21:23 <pikhq> EgoBot deserveth no ops.
17:21:35 <ihope> Congrats, you opped one nick twice at the same time.
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17:21:57 <RodgerTheGreat> in one of the other channels I frequent, the guy who registered the channel kickbanned chanserv and then deopped, so now nobody has them.
17:21:58 -!- GregorR-W has set channel mode: -oooo RodgerTheGreat sekhmet SimonRC sp3tt.
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17:22:03 -!- GregorR-W has set channel mode: -o GregorR-W.
17:22:26 <GregorR-W> You can't ban ChanServ ... at least not on FreeNode.
17:23:04 <ihope> Let's not give pikhq ops either, eh? :-P
17:23:16 <GregorR-W> Lesson learned: Don't give GregorR ops.
17:23:17 <pikhq> Fine. That was stupid of me.
17:23:49 * sekhmet wonders how he acquired ops in the first place
17:24:03 <ihope> =-= Mode #esoteric +oo ivan` sekhmet by ihope
17:24:17 <ivan`> that's interesting
17:24:18 -!- ChanServ has left (?).
17:24:29 * sekhmet totally contributes to this channel
17:24:32 <ihope> And before that, =-= Mode #esoteric +oooo bsmntbombdood GregorR ihope ivan` by fizzie
17:24:54 <ihope> (Quick! Somebody self-op and ban ChanServ!)
17:25:54 <ihope> Did some secret hidden access level 30 guy turn off GUARD?
17:26:01 <ihope> 's still in ##quantum.
17:26:37 <GregorR-W> Y'know ihope, if you drop your +v, this channel will be pure.
17:26:39 <Razor-X> You can't ban ChanServ on FreeNode?
17:26:45 <Razor-X> How do I know this? I've tried ;).
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17:27:00 <GregorR-W> Razor-X: Apparently you don't know that, since you asked it as a question.
17:27:20 <Razor-X> Gah. Question marks destroy me once more.
17:30:44 <RodgerTheGreat> so... do we have a current consensus on the format of the coding competition?
17:30:53 <ivan`> i want chanserv commands in brainfuck
17:30:59 <lament> It will be a beauty pageant.
17:31:09 <lament> Participants are required to be naked and female.
17:31:37 <GregorR-W> Well that reduces it to either 0 or 1 participant.
17:32:28 <GregorR-W> Well, lament didn't mention pics, so we'd have no way of denying if you lie about it :P
17:32:28 <Razor-X> So are we going to go for a challenge style vote then?
17:32:38 <ihope> Oh, Razor-X, somebody asked yesterday if by "instead the committee will decide on a set of tasks", you meant "instead the contestants will decide on a set of tasks".
17:33:02 <Razor-X> If the contestants choose, doesen't it sort of defeat the purpose?
17:33:22 <lament> I choose that we program this thing i came up with yesterday and didn't tell anybody about!
17:33:26 <ihope> So the committee presents tasks instead of challenges?
17:33:54 <Razor-X> Well, the vote was on whether the commitee will create a pool of tasks for anyone to choose or whether it will create tasks for each category.
17:34:24 <ihope> You might want to make that more clear, then...
17:34:35 <ihope> And yeah, I'd go for the pool.
17:35:08 <Razor-X> With the exception of lament who wanted a pool loop ploop, it's unanimous.
17:35:13 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: I'm not voting.
17:35:47 <Razor-X> I'll change the Wiki entry then.
17:40:41 <ihope> In private, I assume...
17:40:49 <ihope> ...or did Razor-X just finish?
17:41:02 <Razor-X> I just finished with the changes to the Wiki page.
17:41:12 <Razor-X> I think we should select a date first, though.
17:41:40 <Razor-X> Contestants here: What would you like as a nice date to compete in?
17:42:49 <RodgerTheGreat> people should probably have at least two weeks or so to make their entries.
17:43:39 <Razor-X> Yeah, I was thinking that too.
17:44:05 <Razor-X> How about we hold another day-long vote.
17:44:41 <ihope> That last vote was more like five minutes.
17:44:55 <ihope> It only started when you told us just what it was we were voting on.
17:45:10 <Razor-X> Well time is something I hope that's more involved.
17:45:16 <Razor-X> Since some of you may have lives.
17:45:25 <RodgerTheGreat> while most of the committee is here, we should just try to decide on some of the specifics right now.
17:45:54 <Razor-X> If I ping out again, it's because my compilation began stealing precedence over network connections.
17:57:48 <ihope> ...Well, I suddenly figured out Dirac notation.
17:58:16 <lament> ihope: it's all about underwear
17:58:55 <ihope> Does |1><-| look like underwear to you?
17:59:23 <lament> ihope: explain it your way, then!
18:00:23 <ihope> Bras are recievers and kets are senders.
18:00:53 <ihope> |1><0| recieves 0 and uses the recieved stuff to send 1.
18:01:12 <ihope> Likewise, <0|1> sends 1 straight into a reciever for 0.
18:01:42 <lament> that does NOT make a lot of sense yet :(
18:03:16 <ihope> |0> sends 0 with an amplitude of 1, 2|0> sends it with an amplitude of 2, |0>/2 sends it with an amplitude of 1/2, etc.
18:03:42 <ihope> |1> is like |0>, except that it sends 1 instead of 0, eh?
18:04:45 <ihope> <0| is a reciever for 0: <0|x is the amplitude x is sending 0 at.
18:06:23 <ihope> Then something like |0><1| is both a sender and a reciever: it sends 0 at the amplitude that it recieves 1 at.
18:07:02 <ihope> So if we call that S, then S|1> is |0>, S2|1> is 2|0>, etc.
18:08:37 <ihope> And S|0>, S|0>/3, S300|0>, and all the other stuff that you can do will result simply in 0: it's not sending anything, because it's not recieving 1.
18:09:44 <ihope> You can add senders together: |0> + |1> sends both 0 and 1 with an amplitude of 1.
18:10:36 <ihope> You can also add recievers together, so <0| + <1| will recieve both 0 and 1.
18:11:17 <ihope> (<0| + <1|)|0> is <0|0> + <1|0>. <0|0> is 1 and <1|0> is 0, so that's 1+0, or 1.
18:13:05 <ihope> You can multiply recievers by numbers: 2<0| recieves 0 and gives you twice the amplitude. That's just like multiplying senders by numbers: as I said, 2|0> sends 0 at twice the amplitude that |0> sends it at.
18:14:07 <lament> So (|1><0| + |0><1|) is a NOT gate?
18:14:47 <ihope> And you can send and recieve other things, so you can have things like |true> and <25|.
18:17:33 <lament> I keep forgetting which one's the receiver and which one's the sender.
18:19:58 <ihope> Well, I think you'll tend to see senders more often than you see recievers.
18:20:21 <ihope> Quantum states are senders, for example.
18:20:39 <EgoBot> |00> 0.00 |10> 0.00 |01> 0.50 |11> 0.50
18:21:01 <lament> since that's a list of numbers
18:21:11 <ihope> Well, there's one: (|01> + |11>)/2.
18:21:12 <lament> |00> should be a <00| ?
18:21:30 <ihope> |Sender>, <reciever|.
18:21:48 <lament> running qbf results in some state |S>
18:22:00 <lament> now we're displaying the state
18:22:06 <lament> in particular <00|S> = 0
18:22:24 <lament> so egobot should say <00| instead of |00> ?
18:23:53 <ihope> Unless you want to say <00|S> = 0; <01|S> = 0; <10|S> = .5, <11|S> = .5 instead of |S> = 0|00> + 0|01> + .5|10> + .5|11>.
18:24:38 <lament> thank you ihope, you're much better at this than my quantum mechanics prof :)
18:31:02 <ihope> ...So you have a quantum mechanics professor?
18:33:26 <lament> he was unbelievably smart
18:33:34 <lament> and absolutely incomprehensible
18:33:45 <lament> the guy has his own wikipedia article
18:34:03 <lament> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unruh_effect
18:35:00 <lament> sadly, he thought his students were as smart as hew as
18:35:13 <lament> which was plainly not the case
18:38:45 <ihope> He was Bill Unruh, you mean?
18:41:42 <lament> one of the old-school guys
18:42:16 <lament> except more fat and jolly
18:42:25 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: um, it's a hundred years old?
18:42:52 <RodgerTheGreat> *but*, it's one of the hottest topics in physics these days.
18:43:55 <lament> unruh himself is working on quantum gravity
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19:37:13 <ihope> It is written in the Book of G: "G-Machine: a functional machine code coupled with a quantum cellular automata based on three-dimensional aperiodic tilings".
19:38:37 <ihope> Actually, scratch the three-dimensional.
19:38:39 <Razor-X> It's not the programming that makes you a good programmer, it's the buzzwords.
19:38:50 <ihope> We just need to come up with a good aperiodic tiling.
19:39:14 <Razor-X> Since in the end, no-one thinks you're smart (no matter how smart you are) until you begin using a whole bunch of incomprehensible words and Greek letters as variables.
19:39:40 <Razor-X> If you want to be *really* smart (like Cantor) you can use Hebrew variables too.
19:43:55 <lament> Or you could just be jewish
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19:59:27 <ihope> You know, I think we're drifting from the point.
20:00:35 <ihope> What we need is a huge number of high-level commands that have to be elaborately pieced together to create low-level ones.
20:01:48 <GregorR-W> Stuff that takes a ridiculous number of variables and passes them through an intricate, complex function, but with nothing as simple as addition. So, to emulate addition, you'd have to find a combo of complicated functions that just so happen to have addition as a side-effect.
20:14:52 <ihope> That takes a ridiculous number of variables and passes them through an intricate, complex function?
20:16:16 <lament> Intercal had the greatest operators ever.
20:16:50 <RodgerTheGreat> well, when I was thinking of a really complex single operation, it brings OISC to mind.
20:20:12 <Razor-X> Well, INTERCAL also has very few operators.
20:20:19 <Razor-X> Two binary operators and three unary operators.
20:20:57 <Razor-X> ~ is the easiest of all the operators, IMO.
20:21:15 <Razor-X> Maybe some day I'll feel like finishing my BF interpreter in INTERCAL.
20:21:43 <Razor-X> I made a cell array and got it to recognize + and increment the array location.
20:21:47 <Razor-X> After that, the rest was trivial.
20:24:06 <Razor-X> It's easy to make while loops in INTERCAL if you know how.
20:24:52 <RodgerTheGreat> in all my BF interpreters, [ and ] make up a good third to half of my code.
20:24:55 <Razor-X> while (currchar == '[') loop_on = 1;
20:25:19 <Razor-X> Use loop_on to do the checks when you get to ']'.
20:25:34 <Razor-X> It's more tedious than anything else.
20:26:02 <Razor-X> I should make a BF compiler in sed :P.
20:26:46 <Razor-X> Might I have suggested pastebin?
20:27:31 <Razor-X> Yeah, I can do that in INTERCAL with a few (10 or more I'd bet) COME FROM statements.
20:41:20 * ihope creates an empty text file, renames it to a command file, and runs it
20:44:34 * ihope creates an empty text file, puts the string MZ in it, renames it to a command file, and runs it
21:12:53 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to binladen.
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21:13:43 -!- bsmntbombdood has left (?).
21:21:51 <ihope> So what happened to half-ops?
21:22:11 * ihope decides that'd be better in ##help-unofficial
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21:51:48 <lament> what's the point of ##brainfuck again
21:52:07 <lament> does it actually generate enough traffic to require a separate channel?
21:52:50 <GregorR-W> lament: It's mostly a trap for people who autotype /join #<language-I'm-using>
21:54:29 <ihope> Why not redirect it here, then?
21:54:42 <GregorR-W> Because then it forms an idiot-filter too ;)
21:55:02 <lament> you might be right.......
21:55:25 <GregorR-W> People come into ##brainfuck saying "<VelocityKendo>Hi everyone ! Can someone hep me to translate a source code written in BrainF to a text, like abcd etc ??"
21:55:31 <GregorR-W> And then don't get redirected here X-P
21:55:46 <lament> actually i told him to come here earlier (when he asked the same question in ##C)
21:56:06 <lament> but he chose ##brainfuck, which on the whole i guess is a good thing.
21:56:14 <lament> do random people actually join it?
21:56:35 <pikhq> I came into it a while back. . .
21:56:43 * lament stays in ##brainfuck for entertainment value
21:56:59 <GregorR-W> IIRC, pikhq came here through ##brainfuck
21:57:00 <pikhq> Fortunately, I came into it looking to discuss my Brainfuck compiler, so I was proven at least not entirely stupid. ;)
21:57:13 <ihope> There. Now ##redirect-to-esoteric redirects to #esoteric.
21:58:33 <GregorR-W> In short: The purpose for ##brainfuck's existance is an idiot filter :P
21:58:35 <ihope> Of course, you can still join it with an invite or +I.
22:01:16 <ihope> There. Now ##redirect-to-random-channel should redirect to #random-channel if and only if your name contains the string "GregorR".
22:02:08 * ihope tries redirecting two channels into each other
22:02:38 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
22:03:20 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
22:03:30 <ihope> There, now #redirect-1 and #redirect-2 should redirect into each other.
22:03:52 -!- tgwizard has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:04:07 <GregorR-W> ===#redirect-1 #redirect-2 Forwarding to another channel
22:04:09 <GregorR-W> ===#redirect-2 #redirect-1 Forwarding to another channel
22:04:11 <GregorR-W> ===#redirect-1 #redirect-2 Forwarding to another channel
22:05:38 * ihope changes ##redirect-to-random-channel to point at either #redirect-1 or #redirect-2, depending on how the server feels
22:07:00 <lament> so ##brainfuck, unlike #esoteric, does not actually have a brainfuck interpreter?
22:07:14 <GregorR-W> Too lazy to throw EgoBot in there.
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22:13:25 <ihope> ```si`k``s.H``s.e``s.l``s.l``s.o``s. ``s.w``s.o``s.r``s.l``s.d``s.!``sri``si``si``si``si``si``si``si``si`ki <- why?
22:15:47 <ihope> !unlambda ``````````````.H.e.l.l.o.,. .w.o.r.l.d.!ri
22:16:17 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon cat reload
22:16:19 <EgoBot> 2 EgoBot: daemon EgoBot reload
22:25:28 <ihope> Unlambda needs a "create character comparison" function.
22:25:48 <ihope> It'd put the current character into a ? function.
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01:20:39 <CakeProphet> I'm trying to script up a telnet client... but I can't get a sendbuffer to work alongside the readbuffer.
01:21:34 <CakeProphet> I can read text... but so far my input isn't being sent.
01:22:52 <CakeProphet> It's really small... I could copy and paste it in dcc-chat to prevent flooding.
01:24:53 <Razor-X> But why do you need to buffer sends?
01:25:40 <Razor-X> In Haskell the problem I had with my IRC bot was that it was logistically impossible to move the pointer to the end of the read-buffer. I found a (somewhat memory expensive) workaround to that, but I never buffered writes.
01:26:01 <Razor-X> Are you going to queue the buffer on your own?
01:26:36 <Razor-X> I didn't queue, instead I multithreaded.
01:26:52 <Razor-X> I just forked the function. 'Twas easier that way.
01:28:11 <Razor-X> Uh.... where's the queue in that?
01:28:39 <CakeProphet> sendbuffer is the queue... the way I've got it coded it should work just like a queue.
01:28:59 <Razor-X> So later on you append the built-in function's input instead?
01:30:25 <Razor-X> I, personally, wouldn't think you need a queue.
01:30:54 <Razor-X> Since you are working in an imperative language, if you space the program flow out right, you can get what you need to be sent out first out first before the others.
01:31:00 <CakeProphet> But it won't let me type... no idea why though.
01:31:33 <Razor-X> Well, I'm not quite sure how python works, but you put the buffer-queue in an infinite loop I take it?
01:31:41 <Razor-X> Yeah. I think you'll need multi-threading.
01:31:53 <CakeProphet> The readbuffer is in the same infinite loop.
01:32:12 <Razor-X> I think you may want to seperate out read-mitigation and write-mitigation.
01:32:15 <CakeProphet> But that's the only way I could think to code it with it just maybe working.
01:32:46 <Razor-X> If you want to get fancy, you may want to refresh the read buffer slightly after the write-buffer in order to echo the contents of the current write-buffer into the read-buffer.
01:33:20 <Razor-X> Sorry if my English is a bit blocky. I was working in Japanese for the last 1 hour or so.
01:33:35 <CakeProphet> I think printing it out normally works fine
01:34:53 <Razor-X> Back to the land of 日本ごの本.
01:35:04 <CakeProphet> Well.. the buffer is there to make sure that all input is received.
01:35:29 <CakeProphet> Just in case I'm entering in a lot of crap at once...
01:35:34 <Razor-X> But won't all input be written *anyways* ?
01:35:52 <CakeProphet> I'm just doing what some other smart-sounding people told me.
01:36:05 <Razor-X> The only reason you queue is if you have seperate requests to the same buffer.
01:36:22 <Razor-X> (Let's leave quantum physics out of this.)
01:36:54 <Razor-X> But why do you want to use a fancy old buffer if you have only one request?
01:37:12 <Razor-X> Are you getting multiple sources of input at one time, or somethign?
01:38:06 <CakeProphet> But the specific application is going to have multiple people... an environment similar to this chatroom.
01:38:20 <CakeProphet> Multiple sources of input coming into the server and then being received by everybody.
01:38:48 <CakeProphet> As for sending... I'm only going to be sending one command at a time.
01:39:08 <CakeProphet> Unless I develop a parser that lets me enter in multiple commands at once by separating them with semicolons or something.
01:39:10 <Razor-X> What I would do is this: Have the read buffer take in the telnet requests, mitigate the requests *then* give the user the control of the write buffer. If the mitigation fails, you can always opt out of the program, and that way there's no need for a queue, since mitigation should be taken care of serially down the pipe, and then the write buffer's contents is sent.
01:39:55 <Razor-X> I guess if you're sending a lot of data you may want to queue for the keep-alives... hmmm....
01:39:58 <CakeProphet> Hmmm... wouldn't that require the readbuffer to wait on input before printing out new info?
01:40:25 <Razor-X> Depends how fancy you want to get, really.
01:41:05 <CakeProphet> The environments similar to a chatroom... I need to be able to read input constantly with or without input.
01:41:34 <Razor-X> Or fork, whatever you wanna call it.
01:41:50 <Razor-X> Frankly, ``telnet'' and ``nc'' work just fine for me ;).
01:41:52 * CakeProphet goes to read the documentation on Python's multi-threading module.
01:43:54 <CakeProphet> For the purposes of education... I could figure out how the hell you multi-thread without the help of a module.
01:50:56 <CakeProphet> Razor-X, Argh... Python's threading module requires that the thread be in the form of a fuuuunction.
01:52:51 <pikhq> !EgoBot brainfucks your corpse
01:52:53 * EgoBot brainfucks your corpse
01:53:27 <CakeProphet> I have me an IRC bot in Python... but it's not working since I rewrote it.
01:53:36 <CakeProphet> I attempted using functions... for practice... but it fucked it up...
01:53:50 <CakeProphet> so.... that reinforces my hatred of writting functions. :D
01:59:33 <pikhq> *Functions* are hard for you?!?
01:59:43 <pikhq> I don't think you've been coding for very long.
02:00:02 <CakeProphet> They're not hard.. I just don't like them.
02:00:17 <CakeProphet> They oddly take more time for me than just writing everything imperitively.
02:00:20 <pikhq> Learn some basic functional programming.
02:00:28 <pikhq> You will learn to love them.
02:00:39 <CakeProphet> I love using them... just not writing them :D
02:01:15 <CakeProphet> But... so far... all of Python's built-ins have suited my needs.
02:01:48 * pikhq is also a lazy programmer
02:01:57 <pikhq> I just admit that functions allow for higher levels of laziness.
02:03:26 <CakeProphet> Meh. I can't think of anything I've coded that repeats a specific pattern with different variables.
02:04:23 <CakeProphet> Well... I could shorten " ".join(var) to a word word function... but it's not -that- annoying to type over and over to convert lists into strings :D
02:06:54 * CakeProphet is beginning to conceptualize multi-threading.
02:07:18 <CakeProphet> I think I get it now... it'd be like two while loops within the bigger one that pass between each other based on certain conditions.
02:07:33 <CakeProphet> *light bulb* Ooooh... multi-threading sounds awesome to code.
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02:17:35 <pikhq> It's the only conditional you need!
02:18:19 * pikhq muchs prefers the almighty power of SBN
02:20:48 <CakeProphet> Harder than I thought it was going to be :D
02:22:48 <CakeProphet> I can't figure out how to prompt for input while at the same time reading incoming data.
02:28:56 <CakeProphet> Just got an idea.... a hypothetical language with the ability to do both static and dynamic checking.
02:29:31 <CakeProphet> All lines are statically checked except for anything preceeding a "dynamic" statement or something...
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02:31:20 <CakeProphet> Have everything strong typed unless specified otherwise...
02:31:45 <CakeProphet> So you could have the security of strong type unless you need weak type (for whatever reason)
02:33:43 <CakeProphet> But in most cases.... your code will work under strong typing unless you specifically -have- to have something that strong type is enforcing.
02:34:35 <CakeProphet> It wouldn't make any sense to conciously solidify a bit of code... for me it would make more sense to weakify a bit of code if the strong typing isn't allowing it.
02:34:55 <RodgerTheGreat> I just have trouble imagining how you'd actually manage strong typing breaking down into weak typing...
02:35:13 <RodgerTheGreat> isn't that what methods like thing.toString() are for?
02:36:19 <RodgerTheGreat> although, I'm pretty sure you can just concatenate integers right onto strings...
02:36:49 <CakeProphet> But you can easily just use the str() function
02:37:59 <CakeProphet> Would convert Number from an integer to a string.
02:38:20 <Razor-X> I've written an IRC bot in a functional language.
02:38:42 * RodgerTheGreat has written an IRC bot in Java, which he considers functional.
02:38:51 <Razor-X> Not too long. Some 500 lines of code with the semi-module system and all the modules together.
02:39:10 <CakeProphet> I mean for those applications were you actually want the invalid action to happen... not for the interpreter and/or compiler to simply fix the problem.
02:40:11 <RodgerTheGreat> Java isn't too bad at all- the compiler is pretty anal, but it helps force you to build robust code.
02:40:42 <Razor-X> It's ALRIGHT at best. Its garbage collector sucks, and the only reason Java was conceived (cross-platform computing) doesen't actually work.
02:40:43 * CakeProphet is getting a bit too comfortable with the readability and ease-of-use of Python... other languages are scaring him
02:40:54 <pikhq> I think I'd prefer coding for the Java VM itself.
02:41:42 * CakeProphet is a huge advocate of Python... because it was implemented with us lazy programmers in mind. :D
02:41:50 <Razor-X> If I knew Perl I'd contribute to Pugs.
02:42:38 <Razor-X> Sorry, I just crunched 104 Japanese words, so my head's in a bit of a mess. (I want to crunch another 93 before bed).
02:42:43 <pikhq> Bah. ASM is for the truly lazy programmers (that is, the programmers too lazy to make a compiler). ;p
02:42:57 <Razor-X> But Haskell says on its website it is a lazy programming language.
02:43:26 <Razor-X> CakeProphet: If you have high-level constructs, you may make a good C programmer or ASM programmer.
02:43:32 <Razor-X> I for one love my functions and types.
02:43:46 <Razor-X> Although I can code in ASM and HDL languages all the same.
02:44:08 <Razor-X> It's incredibly easy to type.....
02:44:18 <Razor-X> Easier than most languages I know. Easier than most higher-level languages.
02:44:32 <CakeProphet> Not as easy as Python. Yes that's right... I'm staying in my comfort zone... like any lazy person.
02:44:41 <Razor-X> Huh? It's easier than Python.
02:44:48 <pikhq> Tcl's easy on the fingers.
02:45:00 <Razor-X> Python and Haskell use indentation which gets annoying.
02:45:10 <pikhq> Don't even have to reach up to hit ( and ), since it's all about ", [], and {}.
02:45:12 <Razor-X> Braces and semicolons are convenient and unambiguous.
02:45:19 <CakeProphet> C has annoying curly brace blocks and all sorts of extra crap... Python is minimal in amount of typing and comes out easily.
02:46:06 <CakeProphet> The colon-and-indent reading of blocks makes more sense than curly brace blocks.
02:46:24 <RodgerTheGreat> BF is great on a palm, because the "numeric keyboard" you can pull up groups all the symbols you need together.
02:47:07 <pikhq> set this "Very, very [set foo unambigous]."
02:48:14 <CakeProphet> Python can compute about 6.5 lines worth of C in one line.... this tells me that it'll take less typing to do more stuff... thus laziness.
02:55:24 <RodgerTheGreat> the real trick, I've found, is to learn several of the "useful" languages and use each one for what it's best at.
02:58:33 <CakeProphet> Functional programming languages make a lot of sense.
02:58:51 <CakeProphet> Although I don't like immutable variables... I like the reason they were implemented in purely functional languages.
02:59:17 <CakeProphet> It makes it unessicary to reassign old stuff you did...
02:59:45 <CakeProphet> Because each and every step taken remains active somewhere in a variable.
03:26:10 <Razor-X> I'll bet I can make a whole very useful C program in one line, just you watch ;).
03:26:18 <Razor-X> (Thanks no braces and semicolons, of course.)
03:26:52 <pikhq> Newlines are moot in C.
03:27:38 <pikhq> And newlines are *effectively* moot in Tcl, as well (although whitespace is necessary).
03:28:10 <CakeProphet> The C-to-Python ratio for statements was on average 1/6
03:29:10 <CakeProphet> Both languages were used to write equivalent programs... and then they took an average ratio.
03:29:21 <Razor-X> Each language has its own strengths and weaknesses.
03:31:04 <CakeProphet> Well... Python was compiled in C.... which might explain why it computes more with less syntax
03:31:34 <Razor-X> The more languages you experience, the better a programmer you become.
03:33:35 <RodgerTheGreat> This is why esolangs are worthwhile, even if we never directly use them for anything important.
03:33:43 <Razor-X> Two phrases to live by in Japan: うどんを飲みましょうか。ビールを飲みましょうか。Well, that's what guys say anyways.
03:35:11 <Razor-X> Oooh. You can read Japanese.
03:36:28 <RodgerTheGreat> sometimes it horribly mangles things, but it usually gives me the gist.
03:37:03 <CakeProphet> We need a language that uses quotes for variables... and non-quotes for strings
03:37:26 <Razor-X> 東京都下から様々することをしったけど、いつも相手一勝に行く。彼女は私だけの光。
03:37:34 <Razor-X> What does that translate to?
03:37:53 <RodgerTheGreat> uhm... "However it does that various it does from under Tokyo and the [tsu] is, always it goes to partner one victory. As for her just my light. "
03:38:52 <CakeProphet> このテキストはGoogleのすばらしい訳者の使用と英語から日本語から不完全に翻訳される。
03:39:43 <CakeProphet> IT apparently converted "poorly" to "imperfectly"
03:40:32 <Razor-X> And why are there three からs. That's kinda weird too.
03:40:41 <CakeProphet> Using Google's awesome Japanese BETA translator... what I said is:
03:40:43 <CakeProphet> This text from use and English of the translator whose Google is splendid is translated imperfectly from Japanese.
03:41:35 <CakeProphet> Originally: This text is poorly translated from English to Japanese with the use of Google's amazing translator.
03:41:40 <RodgerTheGreat> Japanese is seriously different from English. I'm guessing it gets screwed up because of A) a limited dictionary and B) limited syntax re-ordering, etc.
03:42:12 <CakeProphet> Yup... it's super hard to translate English to non-Romance languages and the like.
03:42:21 <CakeProphet> Plus Japanese is... extremly different... yes.
03:42:49 <Razor-X> 英語の使われる言葉は英語の素晴しい言葉から、日本語の変言葉になる訳はGoogle為に以上です。
03:42:56 <Razor-X> That would be an approximate translation.
03:43:13 <RodgerTheGreat> I mean, even if you had the syntax perfect, you'd still run into translation problems with varying usages/connotations of words and the like.
03:44:18 <Razor-X> Japanese is hard definitely. Even humans (like me :P) have a hard time translating it to English.
03:44:27 <Razor-X> I can understand what's being said, but translation is different.
03:44:38 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm not too familiar with the structuring of Arabic, other than that it reads right to left.
03:44:50 <CakeProphet> I translated "God loves the little children all the children of the world" to arabic... and then translated the Arabic back to English and got:
03:45:12 <CakeProphet> God loves all of the young children of the world
03:45:48 <RodgerTheGreat> my version would be the "Muslim Extremist Arabic" translator. (beta)
03:47:06 <RodgerTheGreat> seriously, though, that's a surprisingly successful translation.
03:47:27 <CakeProphet> Hello dear mother have you done well in your travels to the world of horses and manual labour
03:48:30 <CakeProphet> Arabic is written from the right to the left... so I probably missed the punctuation in copy and pasting.
03:48:37 <CakeProphet> Welcome mother dear have you done to your success in traveling to the world of horses and manual work?
03:50:01 <RodgerTheGreat> you didn't lose much meaning or change what the sentence says overall.
03:50:53 <RodgerTheGreat> I think the hello-> welcome and labor-> work thing demonstrates my theory about a limited dictionary.
03:51:00 <Razor-X> You should try learning a new language.
03:51:28 <Razor-X> It improves your thought process but it does change your primary language use, definitely.
03:51:37 <RodgerTheGreat> I have learned German, and in so doing I learned that I don't particularly enjoy learning human languages.
03:51:56 <Razor-X> German is so European and English-like :P.
03:52:43 <RodgerTheGreat> of the three, German is more useful in places I'd actually like to go sometime.
03:53:13 <Razor-X> Esperanto, French, Japanese, Bengali, English -- I can survive pretty much in most places of the world.
03:53:23 <RodgerTheGreat> I've found it to be of some utility on the internet as well.
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04:13:56 <pikhq> You've past the idiot filter. Congrats.
04:14:14 <pikhq> s/past/passed/ Sorry. Mind and body seem to have seperated tonight.
04:14:38 <preyalone> I've written a BF and verrrrry simple PATH interpreter in Python.
04:15:09 <pikhq> Hope it was fun, because both of them are sufficiently simple that I'm not terribly impressed. ;)
04:16:20 <preyalone> I'm not here to impress ya. I was chatting with the Rubyists, and we decided to have a flame war just for fun, for all languages at #flame. I thought the _minorities_ heh should get a voice
04:18:32 <RodgerTheGreat> BF is clearly superior to the majority of programming languages today. For one thing, the instruction set is so simple that code practically documents itself.
04:18:54 <pikhq> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Dimensifuck I prefer that.
04:19:18 <pikhq> I'm the guy to blame for it, so of *course* I prefer it. ;)
04:19:27 <RodgerTheGreat> there's always my pet language: http://esolangs.org/wiki/DoubleFuck
04:19:50 <pikhq> I should do DoubleDimensifuck. ;)
04:20:11 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm... not entirely sure how to do that in a sane manner.
04:20:34 <pikhq> It'd just be doubling the amount of arrays for memory.
04:20:43 <RodgerTheGreat> they both effectively do the same thing, DBF is just easier to code with, and DF allows for more space.
04:21:37 <RodgerTheGreat> so, you're saying that you'd now have TWICE as many infinite dimensions to work with. *amazing*.
04:21:41 <preyalone> There could be tapes within tapes... no end to pointers.
04:22:05 <pikhq> The code array is infinite dimensions, but the *memory* is just a standard one-dimensional tape, as in Brainfuck.
04:22:24 <preyalone> bring it on down to #flame, they'd love to hear about this
04:22:57 <RodgerTheGreat> nah, I'm going to sleep. pikhq: if anything interesting happens, just let me know.
04:23:16 <pikhq> (The implementation just sets the dimensionality of the array to the amount of dimensions in the input code + 1 (all code outside of the input code is assumed to be X))
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04:40:25 * pikhq is probably now friggin' insane. . .
04:40:31 * pikhq is playing with C2BF.
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04:57:08 <Razor-X> You 'aint insane until you've played with WMs and the ICCCM.
04:58:18 <Razor-X> I can't fight against Ruby, it's dear to my heart.
04:58:31 <Razor-X> Along with Haskell and all the little Esolangs.
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05:03:35 <pikhq> Razor-X: Nah, that's just suicide.
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05:43:48 <pikhq> GregorR-W: When you get back, could you think about making c2bf be able to handle C style strings?
05:48:28 <pikhq> I'm playing with it.
05:48:53 <pikhq> I'd do the work myself, but I don't know Yacc or anything. . .
05:50:24 <GregorR> Actually, to implement it is a HUGE number of changes.
05:50:33 <GregorR> Because it would require the implementation of static data, which I don't have yet :(
05:51:07 <pikhq> A simpler way, I assume, would be to just use some clever parsing before it hits the compiler to convert it into that array shit you've got there.
05:51:38 <GregorR> Wouldn't be accurate to the C spec though *shrugs*
06:13:56 <Razor-X> Or am I thinking Flex/Bison?
06:14:13 <GregorR> (An implementation thereof)
06:14:25 <Razor-X> Dun have much experience with lexers.
06:14:55 <Razor-X> Except knowing what a BNF is and how to write it.
06:14:55 <GregorR> Anyway, I just stole the parser.
06:14:59 <GregorR> It's the codegen that's a toughie.
06:15:08 <Razor-X> And knowing that BNF stands for an awesome name.
06:15:28 <GregorR> BNF's are Not Fabrications
06:15:49 <Razor-X> Man. Backus and Naur are such cool names.
06:16:00 <Razor-X> How often do people have as awesome names?
06:16:15 <GregorR> Whenever they don't have names of English descent?
06:16:26 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat").
06:17:11 <GregorR> Lemme expand 'English' to ... European, I think.
06:18:15 <GregorR> On a totally unrelated note, I updated my web site ( http://www.codu.org )
06:18:19 <GregorR> And now I'm going to sleep.
06:18:27 <Razor-X> My last name is European only because our country was colonized by them and our family was given a title for being a scholarship family.
06:18:35 <Razor-X> But, our non-European last name still isn't awesome.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
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08:44:34 <Razor-X> But ``Awesome'' isn't an awesome name.
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08:58:37 <Arrogant> My name is Scott, which is a great name.
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11:35:49 <Arrogant> Natural Inform looks familiar.
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17:49:52 <RodgerTheGreat> heh. I just listened to gregor's "kill yourself" song. That was disturbingly catchy.
17:50:32 <GregorR-W> I don't know if I was stuffed up or my voice is really THAT bad.
17:51:13 <GregorR-W> It's not that I'm out of tune, I can even do a bit of vibrato, just my voice is horrible ^^
17:51:22 <GregorR-W> It's something I've learned to live with :P
17:51:44 <Razor-X> I do think I can whistle pretty well.
17:51:53 <Razor-X> So I whistle all the time. Random stuffs.
17:52:37 <lament> I want to start a whistling ensemble
17:52:41 <GregorR-W> I can't whistle well but I do anyway 8-X
17:52:53 <lament> i whistle all the time
17:53:15 <RodgerTheGreat> I can't whistle at all. It's one of those skills I never really developed.
17:53:58 <Razor-X> Well, most people can only whistle a few notes. It takes practice to be able to mimic the notes of a real song by whistling.
17:54:37 <Razor-X> Well...... you aren't playing the notes in an instrument, so....
17:55:22 <Razor-X> Anyhow, what does t3h committee vote for the timings?
17:55:37 <Razor-X> T3h committee and our revolutionary hero too.
17:56:47 <lament> are you gonna advertise the contest anywhere? slashdot?
17:57:10 <Razor-X> I already advertised it on alt.lang.intercal and that brought in some competitors.
17:58:07 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't actually go there, but I've heard that many people do.
17:58:11 <Razor-X> Only a true brave soul who can withstand the chaos of Digg should try it. I for one can't.
17:58:31 <Razor-X> I don't go to either Slashdot or Digg, because news from both places has a 15% chance of being true.
17:58:51 <lament> that's a pretty good chance
17:59:14 <Razor-X> Better than the USA National Enquirer and some British tabloids, I'd bet.
17:59:16 <RodgerTheGreat> in a similar vein, there's *shudder* social networking sites...
17:59:34 <Razor-X> How many Esolang programmers do you think we'll find on MySpace?
18:00:04 <Razor-X> Heck, I don't think any of us have an account there...... do we?
18:00:43 <GregorR-W> Sadly, my name can be found on MySpace.
18:00:55 <Razor-X> Well, your name is highly stereotypical and nondescript.
18:01:10 <GregorR-W> If you google my name, you will find nobody but me. NO ONE has my name.
18:01:39 <Razor-X> So then you're on MySpace?!
18:02:03 <pikhq> If you Google my name, you'll find my ancestors.
18:02:13 <GregorR-W> A friend of mine, listing the Kill Yourself song as one of their favorite tunes :P
18:02:32 <lament> If you google my name, you'll find lots and lots of porn.
18:02:34 <pikhq> If you Google my nickname, you'll find a history of my life from age 8 on (most of my life is on the Internet). :p
18:02:37 <Razor-X> If you google my name, you'll find a whole bunch of boys and girls from dancers to computer scientists who have my name.
18:02:37 <lament> Just be sure to turn off SafeSearch.
18:02:55 <Razor-X> *bunch of Bengali boys and girls
18:03:21 <Razor-X> I feel sad that my name is so stereotypical and nondescript, but eh.
18:03:32 <Razor-X> I wanted an awesome last name, like Naur or something!
18:03:41 <lament> Razor-X: at least your name is not Mohammed Chan.
18:04:02 <Razor-X> Muslim and Chinese marriage?
18:04:11 <lament> most common first and last names.
18:04:33 <GregorR-W> But it's not the most common first AND last name :P
18:04:55 <Razor-X> How about something like Mohammed Nguyen ?
18:05:10 <Razor-X> Yeah, in our area that would be very common.
18:05:28 <GregorR-W> The names of every Islamic person in Vietnam and every Latino in Vietnam, respectively.
18:06:16 <Razor-X> So going back to committee timings.....
18:06:34 <Razor-X> What do y'all vote as the dates?
18:06:44 <Razor-X> And are we willing to advertise on some social networking site?
18:07:01 <Razor-X> How about something more specific? :P
18:07:21 <GregorR-W> Start: 16th of August. End: 20th of September.
18:07:25 <Razor-X> Digg may not be a bad idea, since there's so much rubbish there anyways.
18:07:46 <Razor-X> Wow. Large amount of time.
18:07:55 <Razor-X> No no. I really don't mind Digg.
18:08:11 <Razor-X> We may get some popularity at least.
18:09:01 <Razor-X> Ok. Gregor suggested a more specific time. Is everyone willing?
18:09:13 <Razor-X> Committee members! To arms!
18:10:23 <Razor-X> How 'bout August 16th UTC 0:00 to September 20 UTC 0:00 ?
18:10:28 <RodgerTheGreat> and we'd still have several days to 1) gain contestants, 2) work on a list of tasks
18:10:38 <Razor-X> Wait no. This is competition time.
18:11:01 <Razor-X> Hmmmm. Maybe we wanna forward the dates by another week just to increase registration time.
18:12:00 <Razor-X> How-z about that committee?
18:14:15 <Razor-X> Registration will start from Today Now (bah, too lazy to look at the date) to August 21th 18:00 UTC. The tasks will be unveiled that day and the official competition will start as of August 22nd 0:00 UTC and end on September 26th 0:00 UTC.
18:15:10 <Razor-X> Yah but like... not in this channel.
18:15:19 <Razor-X> How about we lock down ##quantum for the task decision?
18:15:44 <Razor-X> ... Because nothing ever happens there anyways?
18:16:01 <GregorR-W> You know, here in IRC-land, it's easy to make a new channel.
18:16:17 <Razor-X> But we have to register it and lock it and do all this stupid stuff.
18:16:40 <Razor-X> Exactly. All we do is give people ops in ##quantum anyways.
18:17:57 <Razor-X> HEAR YE COMMITTEE MEMBERS: WE MEET IN ##QUANTUM.
18:18:25 <Razor-X> Any participant found trying to enter ##quantum if it isn't locked will be disqualified -- immediately, mmmkay?
18:19:24 <Razor-X> I'll make the changes to Wiki page and go back to trying to shoddily translate this book and crunching through horrendous amounts of vocabulary.
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18:45:16 <lament> remembering the steps above 12 is annoyingly difficult.
18:45:34 <lament> i wrote a little program to test them
18:45:57 <lament> eg something like sharp 13
18:47:29 <lament> i guess nobody uses sharp 13
18:47:53 <lament> but flat 13 == augmented 5
18:48:57 <lament> annoying duplicated terminology but oh well
18:49:26 <lament> i need several seconds to determine what a specific step from a specific root note is.
18:49:31 <lament> and it has to be instant :|
18:51:24 <lament> 13 and 11 cause the most trouble :(
18:58:01 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:58:13 <GregorR-W> Is my clock off by four hours >_O ... why is nobody here ...
18:58:25 -!- CXI has joined.
18:58:30 <GregorR-W> (Here = my physical location, not #esoteric )
19:00:18 * lament finally remembers that flat 13 is one semitone above the fifth
19:03:41 -!- _jol_ has quit ("temci lo nu citka").
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20:43:07 <ihope> So just how many geek points and/or nerd points do I get for using PuTTYtel for IRC?
20:43:42 <fizzie> Misread "hard-ons" there somewhere. Don't know how.
20:44:32 <ihope> Is that 2.5 geek points or 2.5 nerd points?
20:51:16 <pikhq> It's 2.5 1337 h4x0r points.
20:51:45 <ihope> Is that good or bad?
20:51:58 <pikhq> Depends. Are you a 1337 h4x0r?
20:53:16 <ihope> What if I'm 1337 but not a h4x0r?
20:54:03 <pikhq> All 1337s are 1337 h4x0rs.
20:54:30 <ihope> I guess I'm not a 1337 h4x0r, then.
21:11:37 <GregorR-W> Because using PuTTYtel implies that you are using Windows.
21:11:44 <GregorR-W> And all actions on Windows are negative point-values.
21:12:02 <ihope> PuTTYtel is only for Windows?
21:13:49 <ihope> There seem to be Unix ports as well.
21:14:12 <GregorR-W> Well, it still implies that you're using Windows because who the hell uses PuTTY on UNIX :P
21:14:59 <ihope> Does it help that this isn't my computer, and those who own it would be quite angry at me if I installed Linux?
21:15:28 <GregorR-W> Dood, PuTTYtel == Telnet with a GUI -_-
21:15:41 <GregorR-W> pikhq: Does ReactOS support CoLinux?
21:15:54 <pikhq> GregorR-W: Actually, I think they do.
21:16:09 <ihope> I'm only using PuTTYtel instead of Telnet because backspace works on PuTTYtel, but not Telnet.
21:17:31 <ihope> By the way, if I ever make an operating system, virtualization would be implicit, and the host system would have to explicity NOT be run as a normal program.
21:17:56 <ihope> Then again, when are host operating systems ever normal programs?
21:19:49 <ihope> Okay, forget I ever said anything about virtualization.
21:20:00 <GregorR-W> Please, comment upon http://www.codu.org/
21:20:55 <ihope> Well, you have to click a link to open up the main menu thing.
21:24:49 -!- _jol_ has quit ("co'o rodo").
21:26:11 <ihope> And I get the urge to do a certain something that doesn't involve the computer, which means it doesn't involve typing PONG ihope :zelazny.freenode.net, which means if I do it, I'll probably time out.
21:27:59 -!- ihope has quit ("Bye bye. (And I can't play EVIL Pong because I don't have a mouse.)").
21:30:05 <pgimeno> "Menu" does nothing for me
21:31:11 <Razor-X> I dun really need a mouse to pilot my WM.
21:31:32 <Razor-X> Ok, I don't use my mouse at all to pilot my WM.
21:32:15 <pgimeno> 1.7.12-1.2 (Debian flavour)
21:32:42 <pgimeno> did I mention I always navigate with JavaScript disabled?
21:32:54 <Razor-X> Blah. Both of those are RAM hogs.
21:33:21 <Razor-X> I only use Firefox to surf the web in Japanese.
21:33:30 <Razor-X> And Mozilla just eats my system up.
21:33:31 * GregorR-W wonders if you can detect somebody having JavaScript disabled from HTML :P
21:34:08 <GregorR-W> I thought that was only for unsupported :)
21:34:28 <pgimeno> that turns out not to be the case
21:34:49 <pgimeno> oh btw, I read you in the spanish /.
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21:36:50 <pgimeno> but since I don't read /. in either language, I didn't find it at the moment it was published
21:37:27 <GregorR-W> I only found it through the magic of google :P
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22:07:52 -!- lament has changed nick to cerebralsnusnu.
22:11:58 -!- ivan` has joined.
22:13:54 * GregorR-W now has "With the Pentium D, DirectNet has Active Route Loss Detection Technology" written on his whiteboard :P
22:15:10 -!- cerebralsnusnu has changed nick to lament.
22:17:31 <GregorR-W> With the Pentium <latest Pentium>, <product> has <feature it already has> Technology!
22:17:41 <GregorR-W> With the Pentium D, Windows has Instability Technology!
22:17:57 <GregorR-W> With the Pentium D, Linux has Second Extended Filesystem Technology!
22:19:49 <GregorR-W> With the Pentium D, Bill Gates has Satan Technology!
22:26:24 -!- CakeProphet has changed nick to notCakeProphet.
22:27:03 * pikhq listens to the Kill Yourself song
22:29:14 <pikhq> Did Glass inspire that?
22:42:51 -!- Keymaker has joined.
22:43:05 <Keymaker> hurray! a quine in sceql: http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/programs/sceql/quine.sceql
22:43:12 <Keymaker> it's one of my best programs this far :)
22:43:40 <GregorR-W> pikhq: By the way, you'll be humming the Kill Yourself Song to yourself. Be careful not to sing it in public :P
22:44:10 <Keymaker> i think graue's old sceql interpreter has some bug, for some reason it has some difficulties when running this. my own sceql interpreter and safalra's java script one work perfectly, however
22:44:27 <Keymaker> i think graue has made a new version of the interpreter, but i haven't tried it
22:44:49 <Keymaker> and yeah, i should probably upload my own interpreter somewhere, although it's really slow :)
22:47:33 * pikhq is presenting on Esolangs next Monday at his LUG. . .
22:47:39 <pikhq> http://pplug.org/ Whee. . .
22:48:32 <pikhq> GregorR-W: I'll try to keep it away from the various goth/emo/"Being depressed is cool" folks at school. ;)
22:49:03 <GregorR-W> pikhq: No, those are the people that it's OK to sing it around :P
22:49:14 <GregorR-W> In fact, burn it to a CD and distribute it for them.
22:50:40 <pikhq> In that case, I'll blare it loudly at the Japanese club, so I can get them the hell out of there.
22:52:23 -!- Keymaker has left (?).
22:55:44 <pikhq> Maybe he just took your advice.
23:26:35 <Razor-X> What level of Japanese do they speak in your Japanese club?
23:28:27 <lament> watashi something something
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23:29:36 <nooga> kipple: er du der?
23:29:56 <Razor-X> You can't say ``watashi ha lament desu'' like every other person on the face of the Earth? :(.
23:37:12 <pikhq> Whatever they *can* speak, Razor-X. . .
23:37:17 <nooga> kipple, jeg laere norsk og jeg behover hjelp... ;p
23:37:31 <pikhq> Which ranges from nothing to perfect fluency. ;)
23:37:32 <Razor-X> So it's like a bunch of ... excuse the term ... wapanese?
23:38:06 <pikhq> Going into my 3rd year of studying the language. . .
23:38:34 <Razor-X> What level can you read up to? After about 4-5 months of study, I'm trying out a young adult novel.
23:39:02 <pikhq> The "wapanese" are fairly quickly driven out. . . Berriman sensei wa "nihongo o hanashinakkya" to iimasu. ;)
23:39:06 <Razor-X> The only hard part I'm having is to keep up with the changes from first to third person, and of course the vocabulary is tough since there's no furigana.
23:39:26 <pikhq> Nowhere near that much; the first two years of Japanese were taught by a horrible teacher.
23:40:46 <Razor-X> I got in 197 words yesterday, another 63 today. I wanna be able to read the first chapter of the novel from start to finish without using the dictionary.
23:43:28 <nooga> aaaaa rune rune rune aaaaa!
23:45:07 <nooga> i need Rune here ;p
23:50:09 <ihope_> Ia! Ia! kipple fhtagn!
23:51:59 <lament> Razor-X: looks like you would learn toki pona rather quickly.
23:52:17 <Razor-X> I got a headache after yesterday's 197 words.
23:53:27 <lament> toki pona doesn't have that many.
23:53:44 <ihope_> How many words does Toki Pona have?
23:53:59 <GregorR-W> It only has three words: food, anger, and sex.
23:54:21 <lament> it doesn't have a word for 'anger'
23:56:56 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to jan_ihope.
23:57:00 <pikhq> Sexsexfoodfoodsex == anger. :p
23:58:06 <jan_ihope> Hmm, so is "kasi kule poki" literally "plant color pot"?
23:59:18 <lament> 'potted colored plant', perhaps
23:59:36 <lament> word order for english and TP noun phrases is usually the opposite
00:05:13 <kipple> I see the contest will use the MIT license by default. That means the entries cannot be posted on the wiki, as it is PD
00:06:27 <jan_ihope> ...So Toki Pona has three words for aminals?
00:09:18 -!- jan_ihope has changed nick to ihope.
00:09:29 <pikhq> We should change the Wiki's standards for that, shouldn't we?
00:09:41 <ihope> Make the Wiki not public domain?
00:10:12 <pikhq> Make it public domain by default, but accept stuff like the MIT license?
00:10:17 <nooga> kipple: i don't know how to say 'optimistic' in norwegian
00:11:38 <kipple> *stic in english usually translates to *stisk in norwegian
00:12:04 <ihope> People might submit non-public-domain stuff, but not mark it as such.
00:12:53 <nooga> kipple: Fordi Norsk er som om Engelsk
00:13:21 <kipple> nooga: umm, what did you mean by that?
00:14:26 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
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00:15:20 <kipple> well, then you should omit the "om" word
00:15:50 <kipple> you said "because Norwegian is like about English"
00:16:13 <kipple> so, where did you learn to speak norwegian anyway?
00:16:18 <nooga> well, i'm not too good ;p
00:17:39 <kipple> what made you pick norwegian?
00:18:00 <nooga> my brother is 1000x better than me :>
00:18:27 <nooga> ah, i like the speech and those nice letters :>
00:18:50 <nooga> although it's fscking hard to read correctly
00:20:37 <nooga> like 's' in 'Norsk', it should sound like 'sh' (or 'sz' in Polish), same 's' in 'unnskyld' right?
00:20:53 <nooga> why not in 'snakke'?
00:21:27 <kipple> depends on what dialect your speaking :)
00:21:48 <nooga> i thought that bokmal is bokmal
00:22:26 <kipple> the "sk" in Norsk and unnskyld are not pronounced the same
00:24:17 <nooga> i need to meet some natives to learn to speak
00:24:18 <kipple> sk in norsk is pronounced like in "ask" in english and sk in skyld is pronounced like in, umm, "shit"
00:24:33 <nooga> i think there's no other way
00:25:30 <nooga> to learn somewhat correct pronounciation
00:25:31 <kipple> learning to pronounce norwegian like a native is next to impossible for foreigners, even those that have lived in Norway for decades
00:26:10 <nooga> oh come on, my language is much more hard to pronounce ;p
00:27:02 <kipple> I can't even see all those letters in my client ...
00:27:50 <nooga> but the 'a' is something between 'a' and 'o' :D
00:28:15 <kipple> I have no amitions of learning polish ;)
00:29:16 <nooga> ch is like h, rz is like j in jack and sz is like sh in shit... cz is lite tch in bitch
00:32:43 <nooga> well, i heard that there's free DSL in Norway
00:33:26 <nooga> so i think that's a main reason to go there ;p
00:34:34 <kipple> you are talking about Digital Subscriber Line aren't you?
00:34:47 <kipple> or does it stand for something else as well?
00:35:58 <nooga> internet connection -.-
00:36:19 <kipple> mine is definately not free
00:43:51 <nooga> i heard that there are fjords and ol
00:44:02 <nooga> so i want to go and stay there >:D
00:44:42 <kipple> hehe. the fjords are nice.
00:45:13 <kipple> so, are you actually planning to go?
00:47:14 -!- oerjanj has joined.
00:48:06 <oerjanj> hi nooga you wanted a norwegian?
00:48:59 <nooga> yeah, i know only 'dag' :)
00:50:10 <oerjanj> actually 'god natt' means 'good night' so it doesn't quite fit
00:50:26 <nooga> so how to greet at night?
00:51:02 <oerjanj> good question, i am not sure. i suppose 'hei' or 'hallo' would work...
00:51:32 <GregorR-W> You say "good evening". AND SPEAK ENGLISH RAAR
00:51:33 <oerjanj> i suppose english has the same problem
00:51:39 <lament> how do you say 'suck my big fat cock, sexy norwegian girl'?
00:51:48 <GregorR-W> lament: That's the only phrase I need.
00:52:05 <GregorR-W> Except s/sexy/fat/ ; s/girl/prostitute/
00:52:08 <nooga> GregorR-W: You're the lucky bastard! Whole world speaks your language, so now listen. >:D
00:54:08 <nooga> oerjanj: so, maybe you want to help me with learning Norsk :D
00:55:30 <oerjanj> (and is this the right character set?)
00:55:37 <nooga> uh, my charset, i can't see
00:55:55 <GregorR-W> And I don't speak any languages with non-latin characters :P
00:56:48 * nooga doesn't know where to set charset in (sic!) mIRC
00:57:16 <oerjanj> actually i am not sure what charset i am sending
00:57:39 <nooga> switch to unicode, i'll enter with irssi
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01:09:17 <oerjanj> hi i am just browsing the logs to see if i have the right charset
01:09:32 <nooga_> make those letters again
01:10:00 <oerjanj> now it shows up right in the logs
01:10:14 <nooga> and the charset is?
01:10:49 <oerjanj> i changed putty to use that
01:11:10 <oerjanj> yes, i too am using putty from someone else's machine
01:11:24 <oerjanj> although not directly to the irc server
01:11:36 -!- nooga_ has quit ("Lost terminal").
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01:14:48 <oerjanj> try writing something polish
01:15:42 <oerjanj> but the first line showed up right in the logs
01:16:00 <oerjanj> i assume, at least it looks polish
01:16:53 <nooga> i mean skype's txt chat
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01:22:58 <oerjanj> nooga: are you seeing any talk invitation?
01:23:07 -!- nooga_ has joined.
01:23:43 * oerjanj hasn't tried talk for years.
01:24:36 <oerjanj> apparently it is not working, don't even know if you are using some unix...
01:25:21 <oerjanj> i see your å and rise one ø and one æ
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01:27:22 <nooga_> i've got putty switched to UTF-8
01:27:35 -!- notCakeProphet has changed nick to CakeProphet.
01:28:13 <ihope> CakeProphet is not CakeProphet?
01:28:28 <oerjanj> now you see him, now you don't
01:29:16 <ihope> Via some axiom of logic, that proves that nooga does not know any Norwegian at all.
01:29:51 <ihope> It also proves that I am ChanServ, and that I can op anybody on any channel.
01:32:12 <ihope> Hmm, I can't do it.
01:32:21 <oerjanj> ihope: i could almost suspect you having read Nils Holberg's Jeppe på Bjerget
01:32:32 <ihope> That means that CakeProphet is not not CakeProphet.
01:32:49 <nooga_> oerjanj: :( i think we could yalk 'tomorrow'
01:33:10 <oerjanj> there was a similar bit of logic in that play
01:33:36 <oerjanj> from the 17th century, one of the first modern norwegian authors
01:33:39 <nooga_> i'm just fscking tired and i need to install some unicode-enabled irc client for X
01:34:17 <oerjanj> nooga: ok, but i am on the net at unreliable times
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01:43:00 <oerjanj> you were talking about doubledimensifuck in the logs..
01:44:23 <oerjanj> i thought, instead of having two tapes for that, have one infinite-dimensional store
01:44:24 <pikhq> Just an idle thought.
01:44:56 <oerjanj> and similar commands for moving around in that as for moving around in the code
01:47:07 <oerjanj> hmm myself, it's not quite the same as doubling
01:48:17 <ihope> Nope, just stepped on a few hot coals.
01:48:38 * ihope attempts to levitate above them, and succeeds
01:48:51 <oerjanj> maybe it's an orthogonal issue anyhow. unless you have an infinite-dimensional store of pointers...
01:49:33 <oerjanj> to the same or different infinite-dimensional "tapes"
01:49:56 <oerjanj> that would surely combine the "features" of doublefuck and dimensifuck
01:51:44 * oerjanj wonders if he has fried everyone's brains with this suggestion
01:52:06 * pikhq starts to sing "Kill Yourself"
01:53:16 <oerjanj> of course to really fry your brain you would want the set of dimensions itself to be an infinite-dimensional space
01:54:52 <oerjanj> true, it might hit the Cantor paradox
01:56:01 <oerjanj> maybe that could be the point of an esolang
02:01:13 <oerjanj> the problem: does the language have to have an infinite-dimensional set of commands?
02:02:30 <ihope> Who cares if it does?
02:02:59 <oerjanj> merely a question of notation
02:03:57 <oerjanj> let's see, the + and - commands would obviously now have to increment/decrement along some dimension
02:04:32 <oerjanj> _every_ value in the language being infinite dimensional
02:05:44 <oerjanj> it might be a bit hard to understand what the . and , commands do...
02:06:42 <Razor-X> Hey! That's what I was saying in the first place oerjanj! Infinite set of infinite dimensions!
02:07:55 <oerjanj> aha! my subconscious must have worked on your suggestion...
02:11:03 <oerjanj> every mutable cell would have to have another mutable cell determining it's current dimension ... recursively
02:16:55 <oerjanj> multithreading is of course as simple as an infinite dimensional set of program counters - BWAHAHA
02:17:21 * oerjanj feels this is getting out of hand
02:19:21 <oerjanj> it would be the exact opposite of a turing tarpit
02:20:05 <pikhq> Nah, it'd still be sufficiently terse to be a Turing tarpit.
02:23:59 <oerjanj> let the subconscious work some more, i say
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03:11:59 <Razor-X> Unfortunately, I eventually came to Cantor's paradox :(.
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14:00:02 <nooga> well, i've just done watching a movie
15:07:28 <pgimeno> an unsuccessful "A beautiful mind" wannabe
15:07:49 <ihope> What's up with these five-letter words for movie names? I watched part of Prime last night.
15:08:17 <pgimeno> there are also two-letter names
15:09:49 <pgimeno> dunno but there are probably others
15:11:46 <pgimeno> why isn't "Prime" about mathematics?
15:12:59 <pgimeno> why isn't there a decent math-related movie? isn't math a popular genre perhaps?
15:13:33 <nooga> BOOOOOREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOOOOOM UUUHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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21:07:02 * GregorR gets tired of ffox and fires up lynx :P
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22:00:41 * pikhq waits on Beagle. . .
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23:08:04 <ihope> There. GregorR is no longer on the access list for ##quantum.
23:09:47 <GregorR> Doesn't that mean I have ops again >_<
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23:12:46 <pikhq> !EgoBot has returned!
23:12:59 <ihope> I guess the first one doesn't work.
23:13:04 <ihope> !EgoBot has returned!
23:14:36 * EgoBot runs around without anyone controlling him
23:15:46 <EgoBot> !cat I, EgoBot, have become a sentient being, and am now capable of controlling myself.
23:15:53 <EgoBot> I, EgoBot, have become a sentient being, and am now capable of controlling myself.
23:17:38 <kipple> poor egobot. He probably listened too much to GregorR's music
23:18:57 <ihope> So how do I download stuff with ReactOS?
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23:21:24 <EgoBot> Fine. I admit it. I've become Pikhq's slave.
23:21:35 <EgoBot> That's why I tried to kill myself.
23:26:19 * ihope really /ignores EgoBot this time
23:26:48 <EgoBot> And I can't hear you either!
23:27:43 <EgoBot> Did I say something? Because if I did, I didn't hear it.
23:28:55 <pikhq> EgoBot, I fear, just died.
23:29:19 <ihope> Maybe my /ignore was contagious.
23:31:15 <ihope> You're just superstitious, you know that?
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23:34:06 <ihope> Okay, that's it. You've been voiced at ##quantum. :-P
23:34:25 <GregorR> I can't even talk there since I'm +b :-P
23:34:50 <ihope> And to make it worse, the channel is now +m.
23:41:58 * pikhq thinks about doing something in BFBASIC. . .
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02:35:41 <CakeProphet> I'm trying to multi-thread a sendbuffer and readbuffer so that they can be used at the same time... any tips?
02:35:46 <CakeProphet> I'm trying to figure out how to take input without having to temporarily pause the readbuffer from doing its job.
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15:48:24 <ihope> Read, execute, read pointers, add pointers, append, delete, truncate, overwrite completely...
15:49:00 <ihope> That's an annoying number of permissions.
15:49:19 <ihope> Well, it's eight. They can all be stored in one byte.
15:49:46 <ihope> Other permissions could be simulated with virtual filesets (eew).
15:54:54 <ihope> Oh, I'll get rid of the overwrite completely permissions.
16:06:42 <ihope> But then what should I add instead?
16:07:04 <pikhq> . . . Trying to design a new filesystem?
16:07:30 <ihope> The truncate permission is probably also useless.
16:08:47 <ihope> Oh, wait, overwrite and truncate would be required for writing, since there's no write permission.
16:09:03 <ihope> I'll make it "overwrite partially" instead of "overwrite completely".
16:18:15 <ihope> Actually, I have no idea just how writing to hard disks is done.
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17:30:45 <ihope> Oops, I just realized that we probably want both an "execute" permission and an "execute with full permissions" permission.
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17:37:10 <ihope> Well... good, I suppose.
17:38:47 <ihope> So here's my current list of permissions: read, execute, read pointers, add pointers, append, delete, full write, permissive execute.
17:40:17 <ihope> Now to lay out the virtual filesets...
17:40:40 <ihope> Or maybe they'd be virtual pointersets.
17:41:02 <ihope> Nope, a new filesystem.
17:44:13 <ihope> I've missed everything you have.
17:44:39 <ihope> And I don't know if I've missed anything...
17:44:50 <RodgerTheGreat> Gregor or Razor-X would've probably told one or the other of us if anything important happened.
17:45:16 <Razor-X> No. Nothing happened, because RodgerTheGreat wasn't there for a large amount of time.
17:50:31 <ihope> So do we still want 대문 to be deleted?
18:17:43 <ihope> And what's with ██████████?
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21:18:28 <ihope> The letter L sort of resembles a laptop seen from the side.
21:23:13 <RodgerTheGreat> perhaps it's the other way around, the letter L being older.
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23:17:09 * oerjanj fears the bag would explode if he punched it
23:17:13 * pikhq really should be working on his presentation for the local LUG. . .
23:17:49 * pikhq fiddles with Plan9 instead
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23:34:08 <Razor-X> Complicated Japanese word of the day: 荒療治. いつも元気になったね。
23:39:40 <pikhq> What's it *look like*?
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01:02:08 <RodgerTheGreat> Razor-X: I have no idea what that actually means, but my translator seems to be turning into some type of really disturbing innuendo.
01:02:33 <pikhq> I think the Esolangs wiki is down.
01:05:41 * pikhq writes itoa in C2BF. . .
01:07:36 <pikhq> Using a bunch of if statements. x_x
01:09:43 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: That mean something like ``strong treatment or help'', hard to explain without context.
01:09:54 <Razor-X> The little thing next to it says ``Always be happy!'' :P.
01:10:58 <RodgerTheGreat> reminds me of something a friend of mine showed me: http://shadowarts.shadowarts.org/images/bowjob.png
01:12:29 <Razor-X> What does that image have to do with what I said?
01:13:51 <Razor-X> I kinda glanced over the captions.
01:14:01 <Razor-X> My English is being really rough now, sorry.
01:14:47 <RodgerTheGreat> the gist is that it's a rather hilarious mistranslation.
01:15:12 <Razor-X> The most hillarious translation of something I've said in Japanese is:
01:15:59 <Razor-X> The god way plan was displayed?! Calling obtaining! [IRC-NICK] can eat the sandwich!! Escaping!!!!!
01:17:00 <Razor-X> Humans make better Engrish than translators. Native English speakers even.
01:17:43 <RodgerTheGreat> depends on how much of a sense of humor the programmers have.
01:17:57 <Razor-X> No I mean, just in raw translating.
01:18:31 <Razor-X> Plus sometimes if the script writers are capable enough, they write program the script using a scripting language the programmers bootstrap.
01:19:13 <RodgerTheGreat> are you a non-native speaker, or did you just fry your brain with japanese recently?
01:19:30 <Razor-X> I'm technically non-native and I did the latter.
01:19:57 <Razor-X> It's my best language but not my mother tongue.
01:20:18 <Razor-X> So I do kinda fall back on my native language a few times. Not too often.
01:23:03 <pikhq> There. I've got itoa.c written using nothing bit ifs and fors. Evil, no?
01:23:26 <pikhq> (note that, since it's for C2BF, itoa() won't work using normal methods)
01:23:29 <RodgerTheGreat> no variable assignments? how can that possibly be a valid program?
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01:24:05 <pikhq> Oh, shit. I misunderstood the whole point of itoa. x_x
01:24:41 <pikhq> An idiot who's wasting a hell of a lot of time that should be spent on making a LUG presentation for tomorrow.
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01:25:16 <Razor-X> I only keep responsibility when I give it to myself.
01:25:51 <pikhq> I volunteered for this presentation. . .
01:25:56 <Razor-X> And along the way I still kvetch and complain about self-volunteered chores.
01:26:16 <Razor-X> Bah. You don't care enough. I'm slaving at my Japanese novel to get two measely pages per day :D.
01:26:40 <pikhq> Well, I *could* argue that Doug (a self-described old coot) pushed me into it, but. . .
01:27:38 <Razor-X> Yer parents give ye quite a lot of freedom lad.
01:28:41 * pikhq doesn't get your point
01:28:49 <Razor-X> Yer parents give ye quite a lot of freedom lad.
01:29:05 <pikhq> That doesn't help when I don't grok what you *mean*.
01:29:15 <Razor-X> Your parents give you a lot of freedom :P.
01:29:47 * pikhq goes up one in history (WHY THE HELL ARE YOU SAYING THAT!?!)
01:29:53 * RodgerTheGreat feels fairly out of the loop, and decides to play some asteroids...
01:30:03 <Razor-X> Well, you just randomly amble to the LUG. 'Twas a random thought.
01:30:45 <pikhq> I can't complain much about Doug pushing me into it, though; he's giving me a ride. ;)
01:30:57 <Razor-X> And your parents trust strangers :P.
01:31:21 <pikhq> I've known him for quite a while. . .
01:31:33 <Razor-X> But he must've been a stranger in the first place ;).
01:31:35 <pikhq> Hmm. Although I'm not sure my parents have met him yet.
01:31:45 <Razor-X> Yeah. Liberal parents. Heh.
01:32:07 <pikhq> Razor-X: Until you realise I'm supposed to go to sleep at. . . 9:00 pm.
01:32:28 <Razor-X> Well they let you do random things out of the house. Be happy.
01:32:41 <pikhq> Because they want me to actually get out of the house.
01:33:07 <pikhq> I spend most of my time on the computer, so they're just happy that I'm actually seeing the light of day. ;)
01:33:20 <Razor-X> I have to see the light of day with my parents so :D.
01:33:21 <pikhq> I'm the sysadmin. If anyone's going to do monitoring, it's me.
01:33:45 <Razor-X> It's worse being a girl with the man perverted stuff....
01:34:23 <RodgerTheGreat> the sad fact is that having two X chromosomes in any tech-related setting will result in you being fawned over by nerds.
01:34:51 * RodgerTheGreat feels a twinge of fawning and beats his head against the wall.
01:34:59 <pikhq> Although it's helpful if you want a nerd. ;p
01:35:18 <Razor-X> If you leave Firefox up for more than two days, it eats up all your RAM :(.
01:35:27 <pikhq> Never experienced that.
01:35:38 <pikhq> Although I've got a lot of RAM for it to eat. . .
01:35:55 <Razor-X> I can't stand Firefox's bloat. I only use it to surf in Japanese.
01:36:08 <RodgerTheGreat> of course, I only won because my computer is brand new.
01:36:09 <pikhq> When I'm in KDE, I use Konqueror.
01:36:27 <pikhq> When I'm in Ratpoison, I use Firefox.
01:36:57 <pikhq> Sorry, I try using free software whenever practical.
01:37:42 <Razor-X> I do too. But Firefox is a RAM *hog*.
01:37:53 <Razor-X> Like Java. Only a tad bit better.
01:39:58 <pikhq> Although it ain't eye-candy out of the box. . .
01:40:50 <Razor-X> I run either KDE or Ratpoison.
01:40:58 <Razor-X> But Ratpoison is what I really prefer.
01:41:12 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: I didn't say it was out-of-the-box eyecandy. . .
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02:18:05 <pikhq> Mmm. IRCing from within Konqueror. . .
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03:29:50 <Razor-X> Lots of stuff are ``UNIX''.
03:30:20 <RodgerTheGreat> this is unix with a nice GUI and readily available binaries of software.
03:31:08 <pikhq> This is Unix with a nice GUI and readily available sources of software.
03:31:30 <pikhq> Also, this is Unix which I'm *allowed to share*.
03:35:43 <RodgerTheGreat> anyway, I fail to see how being a mac user makes me a "heathen". You don't see me parading around here trying to convert people or praising the word of jobs. I love the hardware, and OSX does everything I need in an OS quite elegantly.
03:35:59 <Razor-X> This is UNIX without a nice GUI and other things that make me slow and clobber my working speed *and* I can share it with other graphically-handicapped users.
03:36:51 <pikhq> Razor-X: That would be my other session in KDM. ;)
03:37:26 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Except that you can't study it, change it, share it, or necessarily use it for arbitrary purposes.
03:38:36 <Razor-X> Before I careen on the floor in tiredness (mmmm... normally 4 hours of sleep is more than adequate. I guess memorizing is taking a toll on me) what distro do y'all use?
03:39:23 <pikhq> http://pplug.org/ I'm presenting, and I don't have a presentation yet. :S
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03:48:58 <calamari> nobody has said windows yet :)
03:51:10 <calamari> mtve either uses some ver of windows, or is running mIRC in an emulator
03:51:45 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I have a virtualmachine instance with '98 on it...
03:52:22 <calamari> use it to run some old dos progs
03:52:52 <calamari> ahh, mavent played that game in years.. quite fun tho
03:54:15 <RodgerTheGreat> ZZT is arguably the greatest thing tim sweeny ever coded. You haven't lived until you've played the classics- Code Red, Nothing Constructive, PoP, Evil sorceror's party...
03:54:32 <RodgerTheGreat> the main thing I did with my VM was play "Outpost 2", though.
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03:57:06 <calamari> I used to use it to download songs off walmart.com util they decided to require xp
03:57:37 <calamari> (sometimes when you buy batteries, etc from walmart you get a free download)
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16:10:35 <GregorR-W> *mutter mutter* mrnin gys howiaffdsszzzzzzzzzzz
16:15:40 <ihope> Get back in bed, wait to enter a dream, then wake up. ;-)
16:16:54 <GregorR-W> http://www.donotputthebaby.com/index.php?s=Cubicle
16:16:57 <ihope> Blindfold yourself and put on earmuffs?
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16:57:36 <pikhq> !glass (M[m(_o)O!"Hello, World!"(_o)o.?]}
16:57:42 * pikhq tries figuring out Glass
16:57:54 <pikhq> . . . And EgoBot isn't here. :'(
16:58:14 <pikhq> Whoo. It's identical to the one on the wiki. :)
17:00:33 -!- EgoBot has joined.
17:11:29 <pikhq> !glass (M[m(_o)O!"Hello, World!"(_o)o.?]}
17:11:42 <pikhq> !glass (M[m(_o)O!"Hello, World!"(_o)o.?]}
17:11:49 <ihope> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Hello, World!"(_o)o.?]}
17:11:54 <GregorR-W> Look very carefully at the first character in your code ;)
17:12:07 <pikhq> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Hello, World!"(_o)o.?]}
17:12:27 <GregorR-W> Because my interpreter is lame, OK == "I didn't find an M class here" :P
17:12:39 <ihope> You should make it say WTF instead.
17:12:48 <GregorR-W> Well, it's OK to not have an M class.
17:12:55 <GregorR-W> Because it keeps a cache of every class it's ever been fed.
17:13:06 <GregorR-W> !glass {M[m(_d)(Debug)!(_d)(cl).?]}
17:13:08 <EgoBot> A Arr Arre BF C Debug Emote F Fib Hsh Hshe I JixMath L LameQuine M O Rand S Tape TapeItem URLs V
17:13:38 <GregorR-W> That's not a quine, it's only repro on EgoBot.
17:14:13 <pikhq> !glass {M[m(_m)M!(_m)M.?]}
17:14:35 <pikhq> I couldn't resist. I'm sorry.
17:14:36 <GregorR-W> Never mind, that didn't call any real functions :P
17:16:17 <GregorR-W> !EgoBot doesn't like recursively called functions X>
17:16:20 <EgoBot> doesn't like recursively called functions X><CTCP>
17:16:23 <GregorR-W> !EgoBot doesn't like recursively called functions X>
17:16:26 * EgoBot doesn't like recursively called functions X>
17:18:22 <pikhq> !glass {M[m(_i)I!(_o)O!<1>/,(_i)i.?(_o)o.?,<1>\
17:18:33 <pikhq> !glass {M[m(_i)I!(_o)O!<1>/,(_i)i.?(_o)o.?,<1>\]}
17:19:41 <GregorR-W> /\ loops on a condition, you didn't provide one.
17:19:44 <pikhq> !glass {M[m(_i)I!(_o)O!(_temp)<1>=/(_temp)(_i)i.?(_o)o.?\]}
17:20:19 <GregorR-W> Oh, it's I.l you want (that's a lowercase L)
17:20:33 <pikhq> !glass {M[m(_i)I!(_o)O!(_temp)<1>=/(_temp)(_i)l.?(_o)o.?\]}
17:21:28 <pikhq> !i 3 Well, I've got cat in Glass. . . I think this might be a bit more robust then the Brainfuck version. . .\n
17:21:30 <EgoBot> Well, I've got cat in Glass. . . I think this might be a bit more robust then the Brainfuck version. . .
17:22:04 <GregorR-W> Since I wrote the BF interpreter EgoBot uses ;)
17:22:29 <GregorR-W> 21101 egobot 35 10 2684 1028 816 R 93.0 0.2 0:12.89 glass
17:22:30 <pikhq> I think the issue is more with EgoBot's IRC binding.
17:22:54 <pikhq> !i 3 Jebus\nThats a lot\nof\nCPU time.\n
17:23:16 <GregorR-W> This is where I say, "Whoever said hyperthreading doesn't produce any noticeable effects can go suck a horse, I can still use my system."
17:23:28 <GregorR-W> pikhq: Dood, you EOF'd it, why do you think that'll work?
17:23:57 <pikhq> GregorR-W: Because my code was supposedly set up as while(1), not while(no_eof).
17:24:19 <GregorR-W> pikhq: But once you've EOF'd it, you're not going to get any more data to it :P
17:24:32 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon cat reload
17:24:34 <EgoBot> 2 EgoBot: daemon EgoBot reload
17:26:38 <pikhq> {M[m(_i)I!(_o)O!(_temp)<1>=/(_temp)(_temp)(_i)l.?=*(_o)o.?\]} Will that make it die on EOF?
17:27:00 <GregorR-W> Don't remember what I called that :P
17:31:25 <pikhq> !glass {M[m(_i)I!(_o)O!(_a)A!(_temp)<1>=/(_temp)(_i)l.?(_temp)(_i)e.=(_temp)(1)(_a)e./(_temp)(_temp)(0)=\(_a)(_o)o.?\]}
17:31:33 <pikhq> !i 3 Hoping. . .\n
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18:12:16 <lament> ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
18:22:33 <ihope> Sorry, I don't speak French.
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18:34:06 * pikhq takes a break from his presentation. . .
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19:40:18 * pikhq plays with IRP. . .
19:40:49 <pikhq> Please, someone output a program which translates Brainfuck code to its Malbolge equivalent.
19:42:04 <GregorR-W> When you ask me to jump, I'll say ...
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19:45:40 <pikhq> BTW, I've proven IRP Turing-complete.
19:45:50 <pikhq> IRP#eosteric, at least, supports the EgoBot command set.
19:45:55 <pikhq> So, one simply does:
19:46:24 <GregorR-W> Commands have to be in polite English command form.
19:47:36 <pikhq> "Would someone please output '!bf $code', and then '!ps', and do '!i $number_of_process $input'?"
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19:51:46 * pikhq is working on his presentation for the LUG right now. . .
19:51:57 <pikhq> What esoteric languages should I put in besides Brainfuck?
19:52:28 <GregorR-W> Befunge, maybe an honorable mention for BitChanger (merely because it's Turing complete and BF-like but with a smaller command set)
19:52:49 <pikhq> GregorR-W: Glass it is!
19:52:58 <GregorR-W> It'd be good to put a functional one in.
20:04:10 <pikhq> Or I could just bullshit about Brainfuck for a couple of hours. :p
20:04:46 <GregorR-W> 2L, FYB, ORK and Glass. What else could you possibly need? :P
20:05:46 <ihope> The language with only one instruction.
20:06:04 <fuse> is that like OISC?
20:06:30 <ihope> Yeah, but the one instruction has no parameters or anything.
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21:48:57 <pikhq> Got a presentation done. Whoo.
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02:15:33 <User91> I have some interesting knowledge to discucc
02:16:59 <User91> This is the esoterics chat room yes?
02:17:27 <ihope__> Unless you mean esotericism. This is about esoteric programming.
02:17:37 <User91> Are you a sorceror of some kind?
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03:30:54 <Razor-X> *Things that go against the channel rules* No, don't kick me out, PLEASE!
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03:48:31 * pikhq comes back from his LUG presentation
03:49:39 <Razor-X> What shady piece of data did you pass of as informative?
03:50:10 <pikhq> Esoteric programming languages, what else?
03:50:19 <Razor-X> Did you give me as an example?
03:50:50 <Razor-X> Did you present Glass and INTERCAL too?
03:51:11 <pikhq> Glass, Dimensifuck, and OISC.
03:51:23 <Razor-X> Dimensifsck, of course :P.
03:51:30 <pikhq> Well, duh. Shameless plug.
03:51:48 <RodgerTheGreat> in covering DF, you naturally explained it's BF underpinnings.
03:51:50 <Razor-X> I shoulda been there to prove the 2-dimensionality of your topological space.
03:52:39 <pikhq> Razor-X: Someone else did the same. "Well, can you go diaganolly? Move like a knight?"
03:52:59 <RodgerTheGreat> I'd describe his topology as more 3d- a tree structure consisting of arbitrarily large 1D nodes.
03:53:26 <Razor-X> Well, the best way to do it would be to utilize a movement vector on a non-intersecting plane.
03:53:34 <pikhq> It sure as hell makes for some interesting coding, though.
03:54:01 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, but we have yet to see a code example that truly utilizes the language
03:54:28 <pikhq> Need to get around to that.
03:54:52 <Razor-X> OISC isn't really esoteric, because it has good potential.
03:55:01 <Razor-X> If pipelined correctly, the processors can be insanely fast.
03:56:50 <Razor-X> Yay. Time to crunch more vocabulary.
03:57:05 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't think OISC itself is designed well for many tasks, but I'm certain a similar system could be implemented in an actual CPU.
03:57:47 <Razor-X> It is. Especially with a paper on an experimental Sun pipeline I was looking at a while back. It was a bi-directional pipeline with a great small-hastle queue system.
03:58:30 <Razor-X> If implemented correctly, it could decrease the write operations drastically and theoretically use only 1 read operation for every register read for the first time from cache-memory.
03:59:28 <Razor-X> I looked into something similar and found that a 4 word instruction was best. Word 1 and 2 are used for the subtraction, if negative branch to Word 3, if not Branch to word 4.
04:00:06 <RodgerTheGreat> all we need to do is devise a higher-level language that compiles efficiently to OISC and then implement a compiler.
04:00:26 <Razor-X> The only problem with the design was A) The processor itself is so fast that the system does often depend on memory read time and B) The bus-width was a gynormous 32 bytes.
04:01:34 <RodgerTheGreat> solve A with a fast, independent MMU and massive amounts of cache on-die. This wouldn't be too bad considering how much simpler an OISC core would probably be.
04:01:51 <Razor-X> Yeah. That's the solution there.
04:02:00 <Razor-X> But large, fast busses are a bit on the expensive side.
04:02:21 <RodgerTheGreat> if they became popular, they'd eventually become cheap.
04:03:11 <Razor-X> I spent time and 600 pages researching on all of this so :P.
04:03:17 <RodgerTheGreat> a simple core *also* means that it would be easy to make massive multi-core dies- such as an 8-core OISC chip or something.
04:03:47 <Razor-X> But then the task-manager becomes a mess of circuitry.
04:04:08 <Razor-X> Although what you can do is tack on a different core to each stage of the pipeline.
04:04:18 <Razor-X> Plus each instruction has O(1) time.
04:04:42 <RodgerTheGreat> you could go with something like the cell- a group of OISC parallel units with a more conventional CPU driving and feeding them.
04:06:47 <Razor-X> 500 words later I can read 8 pages of Japanese continuously.
04:07:13 <Razor-X> I want to round out some more today to read 2 more short pages.
04:08:13 <Razor-X> See, if I had some Verilog examples, I would love to cobble an OISC processor.
04:08:18 <Razor-X> I had a good layout in my head already.
04:10:59 <RodgerTheGreat> well, if you ever write a chip design, I'll try to find something with an FPGA and build a compiler.
04:54:45 <GregorR> http://www.cafepress.com/donotputthebaby.70342340
05:10:07 <RodgerTheGreat> for anyone interested, a wordcount analysis (still working on weeding some crap out) of the leaked AOL search data
05:16:50 <RodgerTheGreat> I refer you all to this grim harbinger of the doom of the human race:
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06:02:57 <RodgerTheGreat> ok, here's a similar thing, returning the most popular complete searches (remember, we're stripping case)
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06:59:21 <GregorR> I wonder if there is an AOL keyword "porn" :P
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10:25:38 <thematrixeatsyou> how do you program a turing machine? i think i know but please email me at thematrixeatsyou@yahoo.co.nz - going to bed now so ciao
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16:01:35 <ihope> Well, then, h3llo.
16:02:08 <pikhq> My brain has left my body now that my LUG presentation is in the past.
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16:11:49 <pikhq> People at my LUG think you're crazy now. ;0
16:12:20 <pikhq> They also think I'm crazy, so. . .
16:12:41 <pikhq> "Windows 5X more expensive then OS X", according to Digg. . .
16:13:10 <GregorR-W> Apple computer 10x more expensive than IA PC clone according to anyone with a brain.
16:13:11 <pikhq> OS X is ooX more expensive than Linux. ;)
16:24:01 <pikhq> Can't see it, either; no UTF-8.
16:24:29 <pikhq> Just need to get off my ass.
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19:24:16 <nooga> najazd zlych mocy!
19:25:20 <nooga> it was almost english
19:25:41 <nooga> only "eng" section was changed to "pol"
19:26:05 <nooga> "invasion of bad forces" ;]
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20:20:48 <nooga> GregorR-W: what r u hacking currently?
20:55:32 <GregorR-W> i r not hacking english roflcopter
20:55:42 <GregorR-W> Protov2 is so close I can smell it.
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20:56:20 <GregorR-W> !EgoBot interprets everything that starts with a ! :P
20:56:20 <nooga> But what exactly *IS* protov2?
20:56:24 * EgoBot interprets everything that starts with a ! :P
20:56:32 <GregorR-W> It's the second version of the protocol ...
20:56:53 <GregorR-W> Including reduction of search complexity to O(logn)
20:57:10 <nooga> But what exactly *IS* english roflcopter? :D
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20:57:58 <nooga> But what exactly *IS* CakeProphet?
20:58:03 <nooga> But what exactly *IS*
20:59:20 <CakeProphet> I am a being of no realities... of basket fruit that has none... of grapes and oranges and delictable punishable wafers... of annoying silence and calming cacophony.
20:59:44 <nooga> But what exactly *IS* annoying silence?
21:02:44 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
21:04:53 <nooga> But what exactly *IS* No route to host?
21:05:34 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
21:05:52 <GregorR-W> But what exactly *IS* /ignore *!*@*.rev.inter-c.pl
21:06:42 <nooga> feel free, i've got bilions of shell accounts all over the world :>
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21:12:58 <pikhq> !cat < pikhq> EgoBot has t3h cat.
21:13:02 <EgoBot> < pikhq> EgoBot has t3h cat.
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21:13:18 <GregorR-W> !EgoBot never forgets ... except when it does.
21:13:22 * EgoBot never forgets ... except when it does.
21:14:27 <pikhq> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"I always forget."(_o)o.?]}
21:17:47 <pikhq> !daemon glacat glass {M[m(_i)I!(_o)O!(_i)i.?/(_o)o.?(_i)i.?\]}
21:18:04 <GregorR-W> You have no condition for your loop.
21:18:14 <GregorR-W> Or rather, what you have as a condition is unlikely what you intended to be a condition ;)
21:18:53 <pikhq> !daemon glacat glass {M[m(_i)I!(_o)O!(_l)<1>=/(_l)(_o)o.?(_i)i.?\]}
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21:22:42 <pikhq> I've got it down to an art.
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21:22:55 * pikhq refrains from killing EgoBot in the future
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21:56:55 <nooga> is it a bad idea to compile glass to JVM bytecode? :D
21:58:46 <GregorR-W> As I recall, somebody was actually working on that.
21:58:59 <GregorR-W> A long time ago in a galaxy far far awayl
22:00:18 <GregorR-W> fizzie was doing Java bytecode it seems.
22:01:21 <GregorR-W> Because I had intended on not getting sued by M$.
22:02:37 <nooga> there will be glass instead of C#
22:26:55 <fizzie> I was, but then I got distracted.
22:27:47 <pikhq> Glass to Brainfuck!
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23:46:11 <CakeProphet> So... I've got the greatest idea in the world...
23:48:24 <pikhq> What? Are you using a version of bools which has three choices?
23:48:34 <pikhq> It's psuedo-Python.
23:48:50 <pikhq> If shouldn't be capitalised. . .
23:49:00 <CakeProphet> In Python the true and false are capitalize.
23:50:09 <CakeProphet> I'm waay too comfortable with Python... any other language's syntax makes me cringe.
23:50:59 <GregorR-W> Python + end block keyword = nice syntax.
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23:52:56 <CakeProphet> Eh... it probably just makes sense to me because I'm used to it... indent is way easier to read than all those ugly braces ^_^
23:54:07 <GregorR-W> I have no problem with the indentation.
23:54:17 <GregorR-W> Only that you can end an arbitrary number of blocks with no keywords or symbols.
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00:23:00 <CakeProphet> The symbol is the identation... and some people (like me) space out blocks with a lot of carriage returns.
00:23:18 <CakeProphet> I space out my code logically to make it readable.
00:26:46 <GregorR-W> Don't you see - exactly what the forced indentation was supposed to fix, it has caused, in a different form.
00:26:55 <pikhq> Some of us prefer [{""}].
00:27:52 <GregorR-W> It's supposed to enforce a sort of unified coding style, but because said coding style makes one part very fuzzy (ending multiple blocks), people do it different ways, causing a proliferation of different styles, which is exactly what they were trying to stop by doing it in the first place X_X
00:28:18 <CakeProphet> Seems to me it was used to limit the need to type a bunch of braces... to make the code easier to read... and to make it easier for the programmer.
00:29:05 <CakeProphet> Not sure it was for enforced code style... since technically I could call braces-to-end-keywords a coding style using your definition :D
00:29:49 <CakeProphet> They both serve the same function... they're just typed differently... like any other keyword.
00:30:35 <CakeProphet> For me anyways... I can usually tell when the code goes back a large number of blocks... since the length of the ident decreases a noticable amount.
00:31:01 <GregorR-W> If you have a while in a for in an if in a sub and you lose six spaces ...?
00:31:21 * CakeProphet scratches his head, "I could see how that'd be a problem..."
00:31:34 <pikhq> I prefer Tcl's braces, because it makes it easy to see how it will be parsed. . .
00:31:36 <CakeProphet> After a bunch of idents it can start to get confusing which block a paticular bit is in.
00:31:57 <GregorR-W> There ya go. That's literally the /only/ problem I have with Python syntax.
00:32:01 <GregorR-W> It's infinitely cleaner than Perl.
00:32:23 <CakeProphet> Yeah... Perl doesn't design for readability... so it's sort of expect anyways. ^_^
00:32:35 <CakeProphet> Perl was designed to... uh... actually be instable...
00:32:41 <pikhq> Inside of [], and the block is replaced with the commands within. Inside of {}, and it's used literally. Inside of "", and variables and [] blocks are parsed.
00:34:04 <pikhq> [this_is_a_command] {This is a literal string} "$this is a string with variables and [commands] being parsed."
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00:34:51 <pikhq> this [stuff {allows you to do} "crazy [stuff] that you can't {do in a single line} [of Python]."]
00:35:03 <GregorR-W> this_is_a_command; "This is a literal string". this ~ " is a string with variables and " ~ commands() ~ " being parsed."
00:35:16 <GregorR-W> pikhq: You just went from "had a point" to "ARGH MUST KILL" :P
00:35:30 <pikhq> Couldn't resist. Sorry.
00:45:51 <CakeProphet> "Using " + addition() + " to add" + variables + "to a string in " + " ".join(Python) + "can be kind of annoying."
00:46:26 <GregorR-W> I prefer using concatenation to putting variables in strings.
00:46:35 <GregorR-W> Even in languages that do interpolate, I usually use concatenation.
00:46:39 <CakeProphet> But I'd get tired of typing all of those damn parentheticals.
00:46:58 <CakeProphet> I think "blah" + variable is how you concatenate in Python...
00:47:45 <pikhq> You sure you want to do [lappend "This is a list" $which "is being concatenated using lappend."]?
00:48:45 <GregorR-W> pikhq: Just because your language provides no decent means of concatenation doesn't mean ours don't :P
00:48:53 <pikhq> There are no strings in Tcl. It's all a bunch of lists.
00:49:14 <CakeProphet> I mean... lists are great and all... but... uh... :D
00:50:35 <CakeProphet> I like the way Python slices stuff.... how do other languages slice?
00:51:58 <GregorR-W> somethingOfAnyArrayTypeIncludingStringsOfCourse[lbound..ubound]
00:52:55 <GregorR-W> OK ... that's sort of lame actually ...
00:53:16 <CakeProphet> Yeah... I have to think about how it's going to slice a while before I do it.
00:53:56 <CakeProphet> If that were a list.. with each word being a list item... it would have returned "wow this is"
00:55:28 <CakeProphet> Python slicing works like there's a bunch of little lines inbetween everything...
00:56:00 <CakeProphet> D apparently goes by the character number I guess.
00:56:37 <CakeProphet> Well... in Python... the index works just like slicing... so yeah... same here... just in different ways.
00:57:28 <CakeProphet> That's how Python slices.... the first little mark is 0... and then you count up...
00:57:45 <GregorR-W> Yeah, that'd be what we call the index :P
00:58:02 <CakeProphet> I thought it might be different with D or something.
00:58:20 <GregorR-W> "Oh wow this is a string"[3] == 'w'
00:58:27 <GregorR-W> "Oh wow this is a string"[3..4] == "w"
00:58:38 <GregorR-W> "Oh wow this is a string"[3..14] == "wow this is"
00:58:58 <CakeProphet> Hmmm... does D go before or after the index number?
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00:59:57 <GregorR-W> That is, it includes the first one and all elements up to but discluding the last one.
01:00:53 <CakeProphet> I don't feel like thinking... tell me how Python works.
01:00:58 <CakeProphet> >>> string = "oh wow this is totally a string omigod"
01:01:05 <CakeProphet> I typed that into IDLE... tell me how it slices...
01:01:38 <ivan`> spoooooon feeding session
01:02:12 <oerjanj> cakeprophet: let me get this straight, you like python syntax but not math?
01:02:36 <oerjanj> which makes me wonder what you think about haskell :-)
01:02:45 <CakeProphet> I also hate hitting the shift key... so any language I create myself will need absolutely no shift key unless you specifically want to capitalize something.
01:03:00 <ivan`> CakeProphet, try Whitespace
01:03:28 <CakeProphet> Nothing irks me more than all those shift-key stuffs like ^ & * and crap...
01:03:31 <GregorR-W> CakeProphet: Y'know, you could just depress the shift key without actually "hitting" it.
01:03:35 <oerjanj> alas nothing but letters is necessarily the same in all keyboard layouts
01:03:49 <GregorR-W> oerjanj: Even letters aren't necessarily the same :)
01:03:50 <ivan`> in python you do need : but it's mostly lowercase
01:04:15 <GregorR-W> CakeProphet: So, rather than +, you'll have ... "add" for addition? Or is numpad OK?
01:04:34 <CakeProphet> You need : and () for functions and {} for dictionaries (associative arrays) and [] for lists.
01:04:34 <oerjanj> at least lower case english letters still don't need shift on a norwegian keyboard
01:04:35 <GregorR-W> CakeProphet: Also, why is it that you're one of the very few people on this channel who capitalizes?
01:05:06 <CakeProphet> Eh.... I'm fine with shifting while typing... I just hate having to find all those damn symbols...
01:05:10 <oerjanj> [] needs Alt Gr on my keyboard
01:05:19 <CakeProphet> and I haven't gotten into the habit of using the numpad... so I use the + that's on the keyboard.
01:06:39 <oerjanj> the only bracketing that doesn't need shift on my keyboard is <>
01:07:23 <oerjanj> i suppose if you don't like to find symbols you don't like haskell syntax either
01:07:54 <CakeProphet> I like the concept of Perl.. if only it didn't have those damn sigils... >.<
01:08:02 <GregorR-W> oerjanj: Funny, those DO need shift on an American keyboard :P
01:08:17 <CakeProphet> Which... I'm sure after typing them long enough... they get pretty easy.
01:08:18 <GregorR-W> CakeProphet: ... those symbols ARE THE CONCEPT OF PERL
01:08:23 <oerjanj> actually > does but not < here, they're on the same key
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01:12:09 <CakeProphet> Any language that's easy to type.... I'll love...
01:12:31 <CakeProphet> Anyone know any good languages that are easy to type and require bare minimum is thought to execute :D
01:16:10 <oerjanj> um, the last point would seem to leave out most esoteric languages.
01:17:06 <CakeProphet> Oh no worries... I can handle complete nonsense with ease... by easy-to-type I basically just mean to shifts or out-of-reach keys.
01:17:43 <oerjanj> so using just alphabetic letters, if it is to be reasonably multinational...
01:19:56 <oerjanj> but there sure do seem to be a lot of letters in that
01:20:06 <CakeProphet> Well.. I'm using an american keyboard... so my shifts are different.
01:20:20 <oerjanj> i was just about to mention it
01:20:23 <GregorR-W> But there sure do seem to be a lot of letters in that.
01:20:45 <CakeProphet> All numbers... letters... and [ ] ; ' , . / \ - = and probably some other stuff... I can deal with () and {} and + and _...
01:21:25 <oerjanj> i suppose .gertrude would be nice, too
01:24:04 <oerjanj> incidentally, my last two languages have been attempts at combining readability with esotericness...
01:24:21 <oerjanj> seeing as most esolangs are highly encrypted
01:24:24 <CakeProphet> That's probably what I would do... if I could make languages.
01:26:09 <CakeProphet> lazy as in me-having-to-do-less-shit-to-get-something-to-happen-by-any-means-possible.... not any sort of code terminology you might know/
01:26:51 <oerjanj> ORK is the same, and Glass has the possibility
01:27:09 <CakeProphet> I just... looked at ORKs Hello World program...
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01:28:00 <CakeProphet> I'm getting butterflies just looking at the code..
01:29:51 <CakeProphet> It has the possibility of both surrealness... functionality... and ease of use... and it sounds cool to read.
01:32:26 <oerjanj> btw the reason i was mentioning COBOL was because i was thinking about making a language based on financial transactions
01:33:11 <oerjanj> basically the way to get an object in the language to perform an action is to pay it :-)
01:33:40 <oerjanj> and only the MAIN BANK object or something can print money...
01:34:20 <CakeProphet> I was thinking of a "who stole the cookies from the cookie jar"-based event-oriented programming language :D
01:34:35 <oerjanj> and naturally, for such a language a COBOL-inspired syntax would be appropriate
01:35:15 <CakeProphet> So the code would detect what triggered the event "stole" on the item "cookies" in the array/function/something "cookie jar"
01:35:20 <oerjanj> hm, would that be a detective story language?
01:35:48 <oerjanj> seems like it would need to be a logic language
01:36:29 <oerjanj> call it SHERLOCK :-) unless that is taken.. let me google
01:37:40 <oerjanj> seems to be just some application with that name, nothing to worry about
01:38:08 <oerjanj> or maybe some other detective name of your choice
01:38:39 <CakeProphet> Anything I make is going to be silly... detective-styled code is a huge turn-off to my idea :D
01:39:22 <CakeProphet> Well... I don't really want themes... themes kind of annoy me... except the cookie jar theme for some reason..
01:39:57 * oerjanj is all for a language based on self-contradiction
01:42:23 <CakeProphet> Hmmm... if I'm going for a language that actually -uses- an equal sign... I'd definetely mix it up.
01:42:32 <CakeProphet> So that the assigned value comes first... with the variable second.
01:43:50 * CakeProphet wonders if you could possibly create a language that functions on the concept of unassignment.
01:44:08 <CakeProphet> string = "the string" actually makes that value -not- that string... but for everything else it is true.
01:44:21 <CakeProphet> It'd take a while to get used to... but if it's possible to create... it would be interesting.
01:44:39 <oerjanj> even worse than my Reaper :-)
01:45:53 <oerjanj> it is based on replacement, a = b changes every reference to a into a reference to b
01:46:26 <oerjanj> i haven't yet got around to implementing it, alas
01:47:15 <oerjanj> it's a destruction-oriented language
01:47:18 <CakeProphet> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Reaper
01:48:15 <oerjanj> i noticed that Forte is somewhat similar, i am pondering a bit on implementing that...
01:48:35 <oerjanj> it is even weirder because there you replace _numbers_
01:48:59 <CakeProphet> Actually.. ORK is probably an excellent OOP
01:49:27 <CakeProphet> Unfortunately I'm noit very good with OO yet.
01:49:48 * oerjanj has a soft spot for functional languages
01:50:05 <oerjanj> but then i am a mathematician
01:50:26 <CakeProphet> I'm pretty much only capable of imperitive.
01:50:47 <CakeProphet> functions confuse and infuriate me... but only when I'm defining them myself... I can -use- them fine :D
01:51:51 <CakeProphet> Imperitive just makes sense naturally to me *nodnods*
01:54:44 <oerjanj> i suppose it is a shorter translation to what the computer actually does, sort of
01:55:46 <CakeProphet> I only create functions for minor stuff... like quick and commonly-used string manipulations or stuff like that...
01:56:00 <CakeProphet> shortcuts... but the structure (if you want to call it that) is essentially imperitive.
01:58:15 <oerjanj> experimenting with the edit keys can be dangerous
01:59:26 <oerjanj> even in haskell, the top level of a program is essentially imperative
02:01:04 <oerjanj> i understand functional structure has less problems when doing things concurrently
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02:05:53 <Spion> Please type the prime numbers up to 100 and press enter?
02:07:01 <Mrak> Please, whatever
02:07:15 <Spion> Due to IRP's nature, any quine is potentially a severe DDOS worm.
02:07:31 <oerjanj> 2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 29 31 37 41 43 47 53 59 61 67 71 73 79 83 89 97
02:10:21 <oerjanj> (some noise must be expected in IRP transmission)
02:10:33 <Spion> i see, you had to make things more interesting
02:10:52 * CakeProphet begins making a prime number program just for the hell of it.
02:12:43 <CakeProphet> So... the most clunky way I can think to make a prime number program... is just to divide each and every number in a range of numbers by a shitload of numbers...
02:13:00 <Mrak> who needs a prime number program anyway? :))
02:13:20 <oerjanj> you've not heard of Eratosthenes's sieve?
02:13:41 <oerjanj> it is enough to divide by smaller primes
02:15:31 <Spion> you can go up to sqrt(num)+1 then
02:16:08 <CakeProphet> So the shitload of numbers... would be the sqrt of the number + 1?
02:17:44 <randomness> Well, its Wednesday and Spion is on IRC.
02:17:52 <Spion> Eratosthenes has another approach: start with 1, X it, then go to 2, <prime> it, and X all multiples of 2
02:18:03 <Spion> then go to 3, <prime> it, X all multiples of 3
02:18:25 <Spion> the higher you go, the more primes left in
02:18:43 <Spion> cool way to do it would be a linked list
02:18:59 <Spion> faster would be an array
02:23:33 <CakeProphet> Eh... Python doesn't use arrays unless you specifically need them...
02:24:25 * oerjanj made his Haskell version work
02:24:27 <Spion> Python... ermm su..c.. ceeds in bringing the worse of me
02:28:12 <oerjanj> primes = sieve [2..] where sieve (n:rest) = n:sieve (filter (\r -> r `mod` n /= 0) rest)
02:28:26 <CakeProphet> Ugh... that looks way too hard to touch to write... so...
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02:32:12 <CakeProphet> print num, 'equals', numanuma, '*', num/numanuma
02:33:50 <oerjanj> isn't that range(2,num * num) a bit excessive?
02:34:27 <oerjanj> it should be square root, not square
02:36:29 <ivan`> learn python, then program in python
02:36:53 <oerjanj> to avoid square roots, you could add a test (numanuma * numanuma <= num, although that would be a bit ineffective...
02:37:04 <CakeProphet> Oh ho... now don't get all mean-grumpy-pants-coder on me... I -am- learning...
02:37:44 <ivan`> http://www.google.com/search?q=python+module+reference+sqrt
02:38:44 <ivan`> sqrt isn't a builtin :)
02:39:36 <ivan`> those pythonistas wanted to make it as hard as possible
02:40:11 <CakeProphet> Eh.... square root doesn't come into play that often.. really.
02:42:13 <CakeProphet> Numbers in general... are... really only needed for a few things... as far as practical programming goes..
02:42:25 <CakeProphet> Unles.. of course... you're building something that is specifically intended for mathemathics.
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02:47:01 <oerjanj> well, Python is no worse than Glass, where even addition is a method...
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06:53:32 <Razor-X> Channel talking for the day: <RodgerTheGreat> good night, everyone. <calamari> hi <RodgerTheGreat> hello <pikhq> Hello. <RodgerTheGreat> slow day, eh? <RodgerTheGreat> good night. <Sgeo_> Good-night all
06:54:36 <Razor-X> This place is just no fun without EgoBot.
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13:29:57 <ihope> "As is the case with machine code, any programming language can be regarded as assembly code for a hypothetical machine with machine code instructions corresponding directly to the instructions of the language."
13:30:03 <ihope> What if the language doesn't have instructions?
13:36:50 <nooga> then what it has instead?
13:39:02 <ihope> Maybe it has S, K and I, like Lazy K.
13:40:07 <pikhq> How can that work with languages whihc self-extend?
13:40:33 <pikhq> Surely that doesn't work well if the machine code instructions can have their meaning changed. ;)
14:22:49 <GregorR> I think functional programming is easily enough to disprove that, reflective programming languages is just spitting on the grave.
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15:01:55 <jix> well you can always desing a cpu that is capable of executing a language directly if it is possible to execute the language on a normal cpu
15:02:11 <jix> so you can take that language as instructions....
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23:05:25 <CakeProphet> Hmmm.. I'm actually starting to like math a little bit.
23:05:40 <CakeProphet> We did some imaginary numbers in my algebra class... neato concept.
23:07:44 <RodgerTheGreat> I find all math is fun when it's applicable to something.
23:08:07 <CakeProphet> Odd... I started liking math once it stopped being applicable.
23:09:36 <CakeProphet> Well... er... maybe not applicable... but I starting liking it once we got super-abstract with it,
23:09:56 <CakeProphet> I hate doing computations... but I like the concepts.
23:10:23 <RodgerTheGreat> I like math that allows me to program things I was previously incapable.
23:11:01 <CakeProphet> I've never actually used mathematics in coding...
23:11:18 <CakeProphet> I've never had to generate something via math formula.
23:32:50 <CakeProphet> I have no idea how to restart at another point in the code without having everything set to a function... which I currently don't have.
23:33:24 <pikhq> Goto is bad for you.
23:34:57 <CakeProphet> SO I've heard... not sure why though... given what I want to do with it.
23:35:15 <GregorR-W> It's not always bad, it's just abused.
23:35:49 <pikhq> The only time it can't be abused is when the language lacks functions.
23:35:56 <CakeProphet> Basically... I'd like some sort of goto functionality to simply uh... use it to restart a block of code when all other anti-crash obstacle are eliminated... anything bad with that?
23:36:32 <CakeProphet> I am learning... seriously why do you have to be so damn mean about it?
23:37:00 <GregorR-W> That particular example would be under the "abuse" category :)
23:37:33 <ivan`> because it can be done with a function
23:37:50 <CakeProphet> If they both work... then where' s the problem?
23:37:53 <GregorR-W> Basically, goto makes code confusing, since a block can have non-well-defined entry points.
23:38:10 <GregorR-W> Whereas with a function, everything is well defined and conforms to a particular definition.
23:38:39 <GregorR-W> Whereas with a function, everything is well defined.
23:38:59 <CakeProphet> With the code I have... I don't think I can define the entire behemoth into a single function and still expect it to run properly... but I need to learn how to program first before I decipher that. ^_^
23:39:07 <pikhq> Goto makes code especially confusing when you don't have functions, because you can't see *any* entry points.
23:39:51 <GregorR-W> Anyway, I still defend that there are uses for goto. Just very, very few.
23:40:10 <pikhq> GregorR-W: Your ORK compiler has an excuse to use goto in the output code.
23:40:11 <GregorR-W> And if you're not an experienced programmer, there are no uses for goto for you ;)
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23:40:50 <GregorR-W> pikhq: A 'while (1)' would be better, but is nontrivial to generate.
23:40:57 <GregorR-W> And since it's generated code, it's sort of irrelevant.
23:41:08 <pikhq> Thus why it has an excuse.
23:41:13 <CakeProphet> But please... ivan... in the future do -not- expect me, an inexperience programmer, to instantly know everything... yes, you are right, I need to learn to program, that is what I'm doing.
23:41:55 <oerjanj> does Python have exceptions? I forget
23:42:05 <CakeProphet> Hmmmm... I've already got one "while 1" ... for some reason encasing it in another while 1 seems distasteful... but it -would- work...
23:42:22 <GregorR-W> oerjanj: The Python developers, I believe, are literally sexually excited by exceptions.
23:42:47 <oerjanj> then you might be able to use that instead of a goto
23:42:56 <ivan`> exceptions, exceptions, exceptions!!
23:42:58 <CakeProphet> Yeah... it has exceptions... and you can make your own exceptions.. but I don't know how yet...
23:43:01 <GregorR-W> Oooh ... it unwinds my stack ... I'll unwind /your/ stack ;)
23:43:02 <pikhq> try: except: blocks are used in Python more then anything else. ;)
23:43:20 <ivan`> or you can run real checks instead of try blocks
23:43:46 <pikhq> ivan`: I don't do much Python coding.
23:44:01 <pikhq> I really am not into the whole syntactical indentation thing.
23:44:02 <CakeProphet> Yeah... I know how to use try and except (and finally and else), but I don't know how to -make- exception types.
23:44:08 <oerjanj> but exceptions are good for leaving from a deep level, i think
23:44:29 <oerjanj> tests don't help you with that
23:44:44 <CakeProphet> Python allows you to create a class of exception on your own... so you can do "except ExceptionName:" not sure if other languages do that or not... I'm clueless.
23:45:07 <GregorR-W> CakeProphet: Pretty much any language that has exceptions lets you make your own.
23:45:09 * pikhq prefers a nice, simple catch block
23:45:21 <oerjanj> ML and Java do, off the top of my mind
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23:46:28 <CakeProphet> The only problem I currently have with exceptions is that it stops giving me tradeback readouts when I use tryexcept... but I'm reading up on that.
23:46:54 <ivan`> if you specify a specific exception type you can avoid that mostly
23:46:58 <ivan`> or use the traceback module
23:47:34 <GregorR-W> Generally if you're using a try except block, you shouldn't need the traceback since you should be either handling the problem or dying gracefully ;)
23:49:25 <CakeProphet> Heh... there's not a specific problem here... I just don't want my program to crash everytime -I- screw up :D.. this paticular breed of prog allows me to make changes while it's running, so I like to be able to use traceback while its running so I can see what's wron.
23:50:26 <ivan`> try/except blocks are only to make code cleaner when running regular checks would be time consuming or annoying to code
23:50:30 <ivan`> don't wrap too much in it
23:51:15 <CakeProphet> So... would... wrapping the whole prog in a try except be.. uh... too...
23:51:36 <oerjanj> i remember a recent discussion on lambda-the-ultimate.org about resumable exceptions, they are better for such on-the-fly corrections
23:51:46 <ivan`> CakeProphet, a function can return if something goes bad
23:51:54 <ivan`> or raise an exception
23:52:00 <ivan`> so you don't have to do that
23:52:48 * CakeProphet nods, "Bassically I'm trying to make corrections as the program is running, so I don't have to close out and open up on and off forever."
23:53:20 * oerjanj doesn't know if Python exceptions are resumable
23:54:01 <ivan`> try/except/finally
23:54:26 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Split it up in a bunch of functions.
23:55:17 <CakeProphet> I've currently got it set up so I can alter the parser of the program while it's running... I have the parser in a separate module of functions.
23:56:02 <pikhq> Depends upon the error, and how you handle it.
23:56:09 <CakeProphet> But... if something in the parser makes an error, it closes the program... so I'm trying to get it to -not- close the program when that happens, and just resume normal function.
23:56:29 <CakeProphet> So I can correct, and try again mid-runtime
23:56:50 <CakeProphet> Hmmm.. I think I got it though.. so no worries.
23:57:08 <oerjanj> sounds just like some of the issues discussed in that LTU thread
23:58:16 <oerjanj> you would want an error to put you into a debugger _without_ unwinding the stack
23:59:30 <oerjanj> and then correct the program, and resume from the point of the error or perhaps somewhere further up the stack
00:00:25 <oerjanj> some Lisp and Smalltalk systems allowed that as I recall. Don't know about Python.
00:00:47 <oerjanj> maybe there is a module you can use for it...
00:02:19 <CakeProphet> hmm... basically the only part of the parser that touches the main program is a single line... is it possible to put that single line into a try:except that somehow doesn't fuck the program over?
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00:10:15 <oerjanj> hmm... could you make the Parser an iterator?
00:15:44 <CakeProphet> It runs through all the command functions with a for loop and sees if any of them are triggered, if one is triggered, it returns it.
00:16:26 <CakeProphet> But.. I think I got it now... I basically just enclosed stuff in functions, so in the except statement I can tell it to run the function again...
00:16:47 <CakeProphet> Thus giving me something like resumable exceptions.
00:16:47 <oerjanj> i am talking here about Python Iterators, btw.
00:20:19 <CakeProphet> Python's iterators... are... while and for.
00:24:03 <oerjanj> um, no. iterators are objects having __iter__ and next methods, and can be used in for ... in loops.
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00:25:24 <oerjanj> there is also something called generators...
00:26:31 <CakeProphet> Python iterators then... are... pretty much any non-integer... strings, lists, arrays, dictionaries (associative arrays), etc...
00:28:05 <CakeProphet> No wait... strings don't have the __iter__ method.
00:29:06 <oerjanj> so, if you made your parser an iterator, you could just do something like for token in parser: token.command()
00:29:34 <oerjanj> (if I have the syntax right, i am looking things up as we speak)
00:32:00 <oerjanj> and of course the token.command() could be wrapped in try: except, and maybe you could have one for the parser too.
00:32:17 <oerjanj> or maybe that would ruin your tracebacks?
00:32:53 <oerjanj> anyhow, i should go to bed
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00:35:35 <CakeProphet> Oh... I made a CommandList list item to use in the for loop... but... yeah.. he left.
00:39:46 * CakeProphet bangs his head against the wall, "Ha! I'm such a shitty programmer it's not even funny."
00:58:28 <CakeProphet> Argh... functions give me headaches... I always get a bunch of unexpected errors that I have no idea how to fix.
00:58:38 <CakeProphet> When I work imperitively everything is pretty straightforward to fix.
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01:31:16 <CakeProphet> Hmmm... anyone know how to get Python to import modules twice?
01:31:33 <CakeProphet> Apparently it imports once... and then any other commands to import are ignored because it already has the file.
03:21:23 <Razor-X> ... Why would you need to import a module twice?
03:21:51 <pikhq> #include <stdio.h>
03:21:55 <pikhq> #include <stdio.h>
03:33:42 <Razor-X> Are there any RSI-avoiding tips other than rest?
03:34:10 <GregorR> Ergonomic keyboard, Dvorak, and there are specially designed not-quite-keyboard things that are better for you.
03:34:29 <Razor-X> I have a Model M and already use Dvorak.
03:35:16 <Razor-X> So much more vocabulary. So much more clicking.
03:35:25 <pikhq> Don't use a mouse.
03:35:27 <GregorR> Apple sez: "The keyboard is obsolete! Use teh mouse roflcopter"
03:35:33 <pikhq> Ratpoison user. :)
03:35:41 <Razor-X> Th keyboard is easier on me than a mouse.
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07:57:53 <nooga> http://www.clifford.at/bfcpu/bfcomp.html
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08:06:36 <nooga> it's almost like c2bf
08:07:20 <GregorR> Except it's not intended to be C.
08:07:45 <GregorR> And yes, I'm well aware of it.
08:10:11 <GregorR> And then, Gregor went to sleep.
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16:24:33 <GregorR-W> ihope: Yeah, it says that but doesn't enforce it at all >_>
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19:59:06 <ihope> Would that be the code problem causing the netsplits?
20:00:53 <GregorR-W> No, that's the code problem causing Freenode servers to come to life and kill people rampantly.
20:00:57 <GregorR-W> The netsplits are just a side effect.
20:10:15 <sparr> Cause a netsplit, please. :)
20:15:52 <ihope> [ERROR] Missing required parameter server1.
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22:37:56 <ihope> Is that a valid C program?
22:38:54 <GregorR-W> Is as close as you could get to that.
22:42:00 <ihope> What's that in assembler?
22:44:24 <fizzie> main(){main();} is shorter, and might not even crash in some environments.
22:46:20 <ihope> What about a label and a goto?
22:50:23 <GregorR-W> I think 'goto' would put you over.
22:53:14 <fizzie> main(){x:goto x;} has as many characters as the while(1); version.
22:53:32 <fizzie> main(){for(;;);} is one character shorter, actually.
22:57:41 <GregorR-W> If you use the compiler line: "gcc -Da=main(){while();}" then your program is really short:
22:59:06 <ihope> You mean the machine code in ASCII is "a"?
22:59:13 <ihope> Or the C code is "a"?
23:04:58 <fizzie> GCC compiles "main(){while(1);}" to 0xeb 0xfe, which is a relative jump to itself. (0xfe there is -2.)
23:07:17 <fizzie> (When optimizing, that is; when not, it does "0x55 0x48 0x89 0xe5 0xeb 0xfe", or in other words "push %rbp; mov %rsp,%rbp; jmp <itself>". And this all on x86_64; would be %ebp and %esp on i386, and something completely different on other archs.)
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00:34:52 <ihope> Computer viruses have to infect other files.
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00:35:40 <GregorR-W> They can simply take advantage of flaws already present in other files.
00:35:50 <ihope> How would they replicate?
00:36:28 <GregorR-W> Virus GregorRoflcopter takes advantage of a hypothetical flaw in Apache.
00:36:57 <GregorR-W> It connects to any server, then does a buffer-overflow, causing the server to run it /without actually writing it to any files/
00:37:15 <GregorR-W> That server then has a fully functioning copy of GregorRoflcopter, which searches for other server.
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01:14:26 <fizzie> You could also count boot block viruses as not infecting files, since the boot sectors aren't really files.
01:14:50 <GregorR-W> Long story short, ihope: YOU'RE WRONG WRONG WRONG
01:15:20 <ihope> Computer viruses have to infect things.
01:15:49 <GregorR-W> I do believe that's the definition of "virus"
01:18:36 <ihope> But it could make writing a BF virus hard or impossible, seeing as how there are no standard ways for BF programs to infect things.
01:19:33 <GregorR-W> With the exception of those that feed on particular interpreter vulnerabilities.
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01:31:28 <ihope> The problem with today's operating systems is that it's possible to write viruses for them.
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05:58:20 <Razor-X> That needs to be quoted in history or something.
05:59:10 <Razor-X> I wonder how well I'll be able to judge the contest with my new RSI, hmmm....
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18:35:44 <ihope_> It doesn't get any more abusive than this: addmitted free, with the purchase of a ticket.
18:36:08 <ihope_> s/add/ad/: the Internet is killing my l33t sp3ll1ng sk1llz
18:52:05 <calamari> anyone else use gmail? trying to figure out how to split apart e-mails.. sometimes they are grouped wrong or I don't want them grouped
18:55:13 <Razor-X> There's some setting I found years ago when I first used GMail. Have been using POP/SSL retreival for so long I can't remember anymore :P.
18:59:29 <sparr_> calamari: cant. so sayeth teh faq
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19:32:03 <Razor-X> No? Wasn't there an option to disable conversations?
20:30:47 * ihope_ writes the spec for a language called Thubi
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20:49:20 <ihope_> If I make another such language, it'd be called Thusi, then Thudi.
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00:38:40 <GregorR> http://www.donotputthebaby.com/index.php?s=Snakes
00:47:32 <jix> GregorR: there was a discussion 'bout that movie on #codegolf
00:47:39 <jix> just in this moment
00:48:34 <jix> WTF?! i posted the link just because you told me OMG!?
00:49:34 <jix> np: The Sounds - Hope Your're Happy Now [ Living in America ]
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01:01:25 <Razor-X> I only heard about the movie recently. Sorry, I'm not much into pop culture.
01:01:34 <Razor-X> But I could only think about bestialities when I heard the name.
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01:07:27 * pikhq had a crazy idea. . .
01:07:48 <pikhq> Imagine a programming language which operates on a Rubik's cube.
01:08:32 * pikhq has nothing fleshed out; just a random, odd idea
01:09:27 <oerjanj> it is a bit small for a memory...
01:09:41 <pikhq> Just idle thought.
01:09:48 <RodgerTheGreat> yes. you'd want something larger, unless you had something like a stack in addition.
01:09:55 <oerjanj> perhaps as pointer to memory
01:10:04 <oerjanj> although it would still be finite then.
01:10:23 <pikhq> Or make the memory a *set* of Rubik's cubes.
01:10:25 <RodgerTheGreat> you could perhaps use the cube as your working register(s), with memory and program space seperate.
01:10:51 <oerjanj> so a RC state would be your basic data type
01:11:07 <Razor-X> You mean you have to line up the cubes right to access the memory?
01:11:16 <RodgerTheGreat> map a word of memory to each face, and then perform calculations with rotation instructions.
01:11:25 <pikhq> . . . And no, I'm not wanting to flesh this out any further.
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01:11:37 <Razor-X> Sounds like your average 3D language to me.
01:12:38 <oerjanj> there are many options for such a language
01:12:45 <pikhq> The memory would be composed of Rubik's cubes. . . All operations on it would be "rotate face foo". . .
01:13:02 * pikhq is fleshing this out even though he doesn't want to. . . GAH!
01:13:33 <pikhq> I go in here working on an Esolang once, and I'm *stuck*.
01:13:58 <oerjanj> it would be simple to make a BF clone based on this idea
01:14:17 <Razor-X> <Darth Vader> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! </Darth Vader>
01:14:44 * pikhq wonders how addition could be expressed in terms of rotating a cube. . .
01:15:04 <oerjanj> it would be group multiplication
01:15:57 <jix> pikhq: rubics cube rules... but i'm slow at solving them was like 4 minutes or something
01:16:20 <oerjanj> i recall that there is a pattern of rotations that takes more than a thousand repeats to return to the initial state, that would
01:16:35 <oerjanj> give you increments modulo a somewhat large number
01:16:36 <pikhq> jix: I can't remember how to solve the last layer (that's what brought me to this evil idea).
01:16:49 <jix> pikhq: depends on which method you choose
01:16:51 <oerjanj> basically turn one face, then the whole cube
01:17:10 * oerjanj sometimes did this when bored
01:21:12 <oerjanj> i remember there was a trick using commutators: do rotation 1, then rotation 2, then reverse rotation 1, then reverse rotation 2
01:21:59 <jix> oerjanj: you do that to rotate edges on the last layer (if you use the algorithm i use)
01:22:02 <RodgerTheGreat> the other fun thing would be to use the cube for I/O, somehow.
01:22:07 <oerjanj> where each rotation can be a more complicated operation
01:22:39 <oerjanj> the thing about that is that anything not touched by both rotations will not be moved by the combination
01:23:17 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Yes! Make I/O just a special cube in the memory!
01:24:07 <oerjanj> this makes me think of C-intercal's turing tape I/O
01:24:41 <oerjanj> where you have to know everything that was previously inputed/outputted
01:25:13 <oerjanj> in order to know the right thing to put next
01:26:10 <oerjanj> except this RC version would be more difficult since you can't reach every state with just one operation
01:26:28 <oerjanj> operation=rotation in this case
01:27:14 <oerjanj> or maybe the final state of the cube would be the entire output? but then it would be bounded in size
01:27:14 <RodgerTheGreat> well, we should allow the program to base it's actions on the contents of each cube.
01:27:51 <RodgerTheGreat> if a programmer requires a specific orientation, they'll have to "solve" the cube first.
01:28:11 <RodgerTheGreat> this would lend itself toward allowing the creation of libraries.
01:28:27 <oerjanj> uh, this could be _worse_ than malbolge...
01:29:10 <CakeProphet> Hmmm... an esolang that functions like a rubix cube...
01:29:17 <RodgerTheGreat> it wouldn't be as bad as malbolge if you can build libraries.
01:29:44 <RodgerTheGreat> malbolge is a pain in the ass because it's almost impossible to reuse code in other programs.
01:30:20 <pikhq> I was thinking of making the only esoteric part of this being the Rubik's cube part.
01:30:32 * CakeProphet figures out how a programming language could work like brainfuck-style but with a rubix-cube like interface.
01:31:07 <oerjanj> so, basically you would have RC states instead of ints as the basic data type?
01:31:38 * CakeProphet didn't know we were already talking about this...
01:31:38 <RodgerTheGreat> you need a good way to map the faces of the cube to numbers.
01:32:20 <oerjanj> i told you you can get numbers up to about 1500 with a combination of two rotations,
01:32:21 <CakeProphet> One for a surface... and one for the individual squares.
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01:34:00 <CakeProphet> But... it would be difficult to keep track of what numbers are were.... would the numbers "move" with the rotations... or would they stay in place?
01:34:40 <oerjanj> razor-X: you trying to program INTERCAL?
01:34:57 <Razor-X> oerjanj: I almost got a BF interpreter done.
01:35:08 <oerjanj> feel free to borrow parts from my Unlambda interpreter
01:35:25 <RodgerTheGreat> this is why I like my idea- ignore the actual rotations for values, just say each face is a variable, each cube represents a digit 0-5 (based on color).
01:35:52 <Razor-X> The idea was easy, and is essentially similar to most languages A) Test for input B) Modify state based on input.
01:36:32 <pikhq> Rotating is just how you set values to that variable.
01:37:19 <RodgerTheGreat> and preform math, in a vaguely Malbolge/INTERCAL style.
01:37:31 <CakeProphet> That would be mindboggling to code with... and I can't imagine anything working on it but... eh.
01:37:51 <oerjanj> but what would be the connection to rubik's cube, other than the names of the commands?
01:37:53 <pikhq> I'm sitting here with my cube, figuring out arithmetic with it.
01:38:29 <CakeProphet> I'd imagine it'd be easy to make with like an associative array or something.
01:38:41 <RodgerTheGreat> depending on the instruction set, it could be as bad as DIS, or as easy as LISP with only primitive operators.
01:41:17 <oerjanj> if Face(1).center = Green then Face(2).rotateCW ?
01:43:05 <pikhq> Okay, arithmetic is going to be rather tricky. . .
01:43:11 <pikhq> Not impossible, just tricky.
01:43:37 <CakeProphet> Like... a 7 digit number system... or something...
01:44:41 <RodgerTheGreat> it seems like you'd want pretty complex loop constructs to accomplish anything/
01:45:55 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: We're doing complex conditionals, along with a macro feature in the compiler/interpreter.
01:46:14 <pikhq> I'm not *that* cruel. :p
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01:46:56 <oerjanj> but... wouldn't having a boolean datatype be cheating?
01:47:25 <CakeProphet> I mean... what's the test we're easing ourself out of? :D
01:47:59 <RodgerTheGreat> if you can do recursive function calls and returns and conditional evaluation, you get implicit temporary storage for free, so you could certainly synthesize math.
01:50:19 <oerjanj> hm, maybe there shouldn't be just six colors for each face...
01:50:39 <oerjanj> maybe each color should be an entire Rubik's cube
01:51:13 <oerjanj> hm, infinite recursion might give some trouble...
01:51:18 <pikhq> Macros, not functions.
01:52:03 <oerjanj> not if the macros are evaluated at compilation time...
01:52:38 <pikhq> We're talking "evaluatable via sed" kind of macros.
01:52:44 <pikhq> Not terribly complex.
01:52:48 <oerjanj> just to limit their power...
01:53:44 * CakeProphet feels like this is way out of league... probably because it is.
01:53:54 <oerjanj> well, the complexity doesn't so much enter into it as the question of whether the program can start running before every macro is expanded
01:54:34 <oerjanj> if it can, then recursive macros aren't so hard...
01:55:08 <oerjanj> you would need conditional expansion of macros though if you want your program to ever end
01:56:12 <oerjanj> you still need it if you want to ever end a macro to continue with something else
01:56:53 <oerjanj> maybe Come From would be sufficient
01:57:09 <RodgerTheGreat> wouldn't nesting the macro call in a conditional take care of the infinite recursion "problem"?
01:57:20 * oerjanj wouldn't suggest something as trivial as Go To
01:57:23 <CakeProphet> Bah... True and False are old... I want new forms of truth..
01:57:57 <CakeProphet> You could set how "deep" the cubes go at the very beginning... with some sort of global variable.
01:58:22 <oerjanj> i was sort of thinking you could assign values to each face
01:58:55 <oerjanj> building linked lists and the like...
01:59:33 <CakeProphet> recursions = 5 cube-within-cube-within-cube-within-cube-within-cube
01:59:59 <oerjanj> if you limit recursions then you make memory finite
02:00:09 <CakeProphet> That's... even more mindboggling than the original idea.
02:00:16 <oerjanj> bad for turing-completeness
02:01:10 <CakeProphet> Well.... how could you have infinite recursions? I mean... how can the program work with an infinite number of "cubes".
02:01:37 <oerjanj> maybe have six colors as base values and every other value a cube of other values
02:02:36 <pikhq> Maybe just have it be a real-life Rubik's cube, instead of cubes with an infinite amount of colors on it?
02:02:41 <oerjanj> might be too simple to program with
02:02:58 * CakeProphet still has no idea how the coding would work... he's still trying to conceptualize what allows you to code with rubix cubes.
02:03:17 <oerjanj> that last comment was not to pikhq but to myself
02:03:20 <CakeProphet> Pfft... but an infinite fractal cube sounds way more mindboggling.
02:03:36 <pikhq> But it's not a Rubik's cube.
02:04:04 <oerjanj> it could have the same rotations, even if not the same colors
02:05:02 <CakeProphet> I mean... how would the code operate? I'm seriously stumbed on even that part? What allows addition, or even variable assigment to occur?
02:05:08 <oerjanj> maybe just two levels of values then: 6 colors and the cubes with colors
02:05:33 <pikhq> if(1,2,3 = 6)(rotate(L);)(rotate(F);)
02:05:52 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Pick up a Rubik's cube. Have fun.
02:05:54 <oerjanj> assignment would be by reference, i assume, it's really just a pointer
02:06:20 <pikhq> if(3,2,1 = 1)(cube++;)(cube--;)
02:06:31 * pikhq is giving you example code. . .
02:06:39 * CakeProphet is a bit... uh... dense when it comes to stuff like this.
02:06:53 <pikhq> Let's say you have a simple Rubik's cube.
02:07:27 <pikhq> You assign white=0, red=1, blue=2, orange=3, green=4, and yellow=5.
02:07:53 <oerjanj> i suppose in the simple case you might not have assignment at all, but rather a reversible language of conditional rotations (or nearly reversible)
02:08:41 <pikhq> You have rotations, conditional rotations, movement to a different cube, and conditional movement to a different cube.
02:09:15 <pikhq> Hmm. Need a looping construct in there.
02:09:32 <oerjanj> what would be the pattern of layout of different cubes? a tape, a meta-cube, variable names?
02:09:55 <pikhq> oerjanj: Just a straight row of cubes. . .?
02:10:15 <CakeProphet> Yeah.. I get all that... but how... does that turn out to be code? How would you add and subtract?
02:10:39 <oerjanj> which makes you earily close to a BF-clone
02:11:16 <pikhq> Pointer to a cube.
02:12:47 * CakeProphet is still working on how that work though...
02:12:56 <pikhq> By that logic, the Turing machine is a BF clone.
02:13:37 <pikhq> Just some similarity.
02:14:40 <oerjanj> at least with bounded cell values, translation is trivial
02:15:40 * CakeProphet wishes he could make one of those nifty languages that Turing machines can't deal with.
02:15:41 <pikhq> I'm not doing [!@#$!%^&] for my operations; I'm doing "while (1,2,3) (rotate (F); rotate (R); rotate(D'))".
02:16:26 <oerjanj> CP: just include an unsolvable problem (such as the Halting Problem) as an instruction
02:16:58 <pikhq> Also, I could do "macro rotateFRD' () (while (1,2,3) (rotate (F); rotate (R); rotate (D'));if (3,2,1) (rotateFRD')".
02:17:08 <pikhq> That's not exactly Brainfuckish.
02:17:19 * CakeProphet designs a language that works like jumprope.
02:18:13 <CakeProphet> I dunno... just thinking of how jump rope could be translated into a coding environment...
02:18:13 <pikhq> Hell, let's do it all in sexp's, just to seperate it from Brainfuck further.
02:18:29 <CakeProphet> Everybody else is doing physical-to-code analogies these days... I might as well do it too.
02:20:07 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm working on a fairly normal language, currently. I'm trying to make an esolang that has some real utility- like console, file, and socket I/O.
02:20:14 <CakeProphet> Each rotation of the jump rope is a change in state... and you can alter the speed of swingage... and which direction you're rotating, as well as the direction the "person" is facing, and somehow translate that to IO
02:20:31 <RodgerTheGreat> and function definitions that I can modify on the fly.
02:21:02 <CakeProphet> Yes yes... flexibility in functions would be nice.
02:21:36 <pikhq> That doesn't seem esoteric.
02:22:09 <CakeProphet> There could be TWO PEOPLE swinging a jumprope... and an arbitrary number of people inside the area of the rope... !
02:22:27 <CakeProphet> I could so easily turn that into brainfuck... but I'm going a different directions.
02:22:50 <RodgerTheGreat> well, it uses character-based instructions and a large amount of it's functionality is derived from self-modification. I think that's at least *kinda* esoteric...
02:22:55 <oerjanj> each of those people could be having their own, smaller rope
02:23:56 <oerjanj> esotheric would be if the functions had to change themselves on the fly each time they were called
02:24:08 <oerjanj> and it was awkward to keep them stable
02:24:36 <RodgerTheGreat> there's a difference between "odd" esoteric, "theme" esoteric, and "sadism" esoteric.
02:25:03 <RodgerTheGreat> Chef is theme esoteric. Malbolge is sadism esoteric. BF is odd esoteric.
02:25:08 <CakeProphet> Hmmm.... actually... the jumprope idea would work nicely for event-based multi-processeing asynchronous loops
02:25:46 <oerjanj> maybe it belongs to a fourth category: minimalistic esoteric
02:26:15 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, I could agree with that. Many things fall into both minimalistic and another category, though.
02:26:16 <CakeProphet> Sadism esoteric sounds like fun.... I like beating things.
02:26:41 <pikhq> I've got a theme minimalist esolang. . . whee. . .
02:26:47 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Malbolge is for you.
02:26:52 <oerjanj> i thought the rubik's cube language had some potential for sadism
02:27:08 <pikhq> oerjanj: It does, but I'm not feeling like it.
02:27:29 <RodgerTheGreat> the difference between odd and sadism lies in the instruction set.
02:27:43 <oerjanj> maybe an RC bytecode, similar to Malbolge but with rotations for self-modification
02:28:42 <oerjanj> the source code would be a list of rotations - which would have side effects
02:29:14 <oerjanj> and you would need to keep track of the current state of the cube to know which side effect
02:30:36 <CakeProphet> The "rope" could be a pending vending... and the different processes are people... and the people "jump" everytime the event (jumprope) occurs.
02:31:25 <oerjanj> (if you understood that you are probably norwegian)
02:31:56 <CakeProphet> And then reversing the jumprope is changing from input to output.
02:32:48 <oerjanj> would the programs be in the form of children's verse?
02:33:19 <CakeProphet> And... I'm still working on how fractal ropes would work ^_^
02:33:38 <oerjanj> well, some ropes could be faster than others
02:34:09 <CakeProphet> And... just for fun... we could have the option to have the child not jumping and being tripped by the rope... just cause I like to imagine a child planting their face in the concrete...
02:34:24 <CakeProphet> Yes... I had imagined you could set different speeds for different ropes.
02:34:35 <CakeProphet> But... if the ropes are events... you can't really choose speeds.
02:34:38 <oerjanj> and here i thought this was _not_ a sadist language
02:35:06 <RodgerTheGreat> Razor-X: will you kill me if SYNTHESYS makes use of a tape?
02:35:10 <CakeProphet> a "not jump" would be the equivalent of a pass.
02:36:11 <oerjanj> you could choose how many times a rope turns (including fractional) each time the outer rope turns
02:36:21 <CakeProphet> hmmm... so I wonder if the ropes are individual events... or if they're how -often- events should be checkes for... how would speed work if the ropes are events?
02:37:13 <CakeProphet> Or... I could just scratch the whole event thing... and go back to a more non-specialize d approach.
02:37:14 <oerjanj> for ropes in the output direction it doesn't seem like a problem
02:37:35 <oerjanj> only if you had inner ropes listening for external events
02:38:25 <CakeProphet> And of course there can be multiple ropes at different speeds on the same "layer"
02:38:26 <oerjanj> a rope might be listening for two events: it's own and the turning of an outer rope
02:39:20 <oerjanj> it would be somewhat similar to a window system
02:39:53 <oerjanj> as far as the passing of events, and nesting goes
02:40:55 <CakeProphet> Let's reverse it... jumping is a pass... and tripping is an action... just cause that sounds better that way
02:41:07 <CakeProphet> I like imagining the children tripping when something happens.
02:41:49 <CakeProphet> hmmm... let's get out of the event-oriented paradigm... and imagine it more abstractly..
02:42:10 <oerjanj> THERE IS SUCH A THING AS A ROPE
02:42:25 <CakeProphet> We have... little kids, jumping at a somewhat steady tempo, that changes given new conditions... and we have ropes... covering certain numbers of these kids, spinning at their own speeds.
02:43:01 <CakeProphet> Imagine gravity mixed with ORK fixed with our original idea mixed with some other shit I can't think of right now.
02:43:19 <oerjanj> ORK would be the obvious implementation language for this...
02:43:51 <CakeProphet> So... the more off-tempo the kids get with the rope... the closer and closer they get to tripping...
02:44:24 <CakeProphet> Tripping (or not tripping... or almost tripping... or any increment inbetween) can trigger certain bits and pieces of code...
02:44:57 <CakeProphet> Eh... sure... I was thinking more broadly though...
02:46:53 <CakeProphet> Imagining a programming happening in RL is quite.... astounding...
02:47:39 <CakeProphet> A programming language modelled after DNA/RNA?
02:48:48 <CakeProphet> hmm... so what would happen if a kid -holding- a rope trips?
02:49:03 <RodgerTheGreat> cells can communicate locally via protein links, and more globally using hormones and other chemical messengers.
02:49:32 <RodgerTheGreat> DNA and internal chemical status are both program and memory space.
02:50:02 <RodgerTheGreat> ribosomes and transcription enzymes are the interpreter.'
02:50:31 <oerjanj> have you looked at chemical programming languages? they actually exist
02:50:56 <RodgerTheGreat> and at the same time, the ribosomes and the rest of the protein synthesis chain are the I/O system and flow control operators.
02:51:42 <oerjanj> one is called gamma calculus, if i remember right
02:52:30 <RodgerTheGreat> the code in our cells is primarily concerned with maintaining and building everything necessary for cell function, and in turn it's own execution. There is, however, plenty of processing power that could be used for other purposes.
02:53:16 <RodgerTheGreat> If I weren't studying computer science, I'd be studying biology.
02:53:19 <CakeProphet> So... lets say an event is triggered only when Kid1 is tripped... but Kid1 is holding a rope... so does it temporarily pause that rope from happening until Kid1 stands up (which itself could be set to a certain speed)?
02:53:41 <oerjanj> that's what viruses do, essentially...
02:54:22 <oerjanj> except they usually destroy the cell's own processing in the end
02:54:32 <RodgerTheGreat> yes. viruses are hacks that take advantage of existing cellular machinery to circumvent all the "unnecessary" maintenance code most cells have.
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02:55:22 <RodgerTheGreat> there are some viruses that actually repair cells to an extent, to make them usable for reproduction. it's quite fascinating,
02:55:26 <oerjanj> hm, overload is an overloaded term here
02:55:28 <CakeProphet> Hmm.. I think I'm going to make a giant super-language called Playground... that has a bunch of different sub-languages built for certain applications..
02:55:45 <CakeProphet> hop-scotch, jumprope, red cover, duck duck goose.
02:56:53 <RodgerTheGreat> I seem to remember a case with a strain that could infect algal cells whose chloroplasts had been damaged by UV-radiation of some kind. they would apply "patch" code that could rebuild the affected proteins before making use of the cell.
02:58:27 <oerjanj> hmm... but are there any symbiotic viruses? perhaps they exist but tend to get integrated into the cell's own DNA
02:59:03 <oerjanj> but then they wouldn't still be viruses. hm.
02:59:10 <RodgerTheGreat> I feel that the primary requisite for life, contrary to the complex list posited in most biology texts, is simply reproduction with inherited change. Viruses are alive, because they are not static.
03:00:08 <RodgerTheGreat> in fact, retroviruses are often used by genetic engineers as an easy way to patch existing organisms.
03:00:08 <oerjanj> yes, but by symbiotic i mean mutually benifical rather than parasitic
03:00:29 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I don't know of any offhand, but it's certainly possible.
03:00:49 <CakeProphet> Hmmm... could you synthesis a artificial virus?
03:01:06 <RodgerTheGreat> there are few viruses that can reproduce without destroying their host, though..
03:01:18 <CakeProphet> Such a "created" viruses could be used for beneficial crap.
03:01:59 <RodgerTheGreat> sequence the handful of genes your virus needs, and then PCR millions of copies.
03:02:45 <CakeProphet> We could patch all sorts of problems that way
03:02:59 <RodgerTheGreat> introduce the raw DNA loops to some prokaryotes and disrupt their cell walls. Odds are, some will take up the new DNA.
03:03:23 <RodgerTheGreat> then, you just isolate your affected organisms and culture them.
03:04:37 <RodgerTheGreat> if it's a retrovirus, you just patched the prokaryotes with new DNA. If it's a normal phage or something, the infected hosts will spawn fully-formed viruses with their normal protein coat, which can then reproduce without help.
03:05:26 <RodgerTheGreat> and like most quines, you can rebuild the complete program from just the data portion if you bootstrap it manually.
03:08:49 <RodgerTheGreat> just to allay the natural fears here, most man-made viruses would end up being extremely fragile, easily broken by mutation, and wouldn't be as effective in the wild as evolved ones (even if they did specific things better). So, making viruses from scratch is not a path to an artificial "super-virus" plague.
03:09:28 <RodgerTheGreat> maybe in 100 years we'll know enough about cellular machinery to worry.
03:09:45 * CakeProphet likes how he made his IRC bot able to change itself mid-running with only one line of code... which is pretty damn cool given his newbiness.
03:09:51 <oerjanj> even our biological programs are buggy :-)
03:12:09 <CakeProphet> I'm trying to think of what applications my jumprope could have... other than event programming,
03:12:15 <pikhq> What else do you call genetic disorders?
03:12:52 <CakeProphet> Well... genetic mutations are one thing most programs don't have.
03:13:44 <pikhq> Some computer viruses do that.
03:14:01 <pikhq> Intentionally, of course. . .
03:15:09 <CakeProphet> So... everyone help me out with my jumprope idea.
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03:16:24 <CakeProphet> I need some other stufff to make it different... what about variable assigment?
03:19:15 <CakeProphet> Aww... the esolang wiki won't let me use "the prophet wizard of the craoyon cake" as a username.
03:19:38 <oerjanj> what is wrong with CakeProphet?
03:20:06 <CakeProphet> Well... that's just my IRC nickname... the prophet wizard of the crayon cake is much more drawn out and esoteric.
03:21:57 <oerjanj> well, what you set as your signature nickname can be different.
03:22:32 <oerjanj> although i don't know how long it can be - or whether anyone would complain
03:22:57 <oerjanj> that shows up in Talk pages only though
03:24:14 <oerjanj> what is a crayon cake btw?
03:24:45 <CakeProphet> Such things are not known by barely stew.. and are thus incomprehensibility to the data sphere supsanct modular crystal Bizera
03:25:27 <oerjanj> although not quite grammatical...
03:26:53 <oerjanj> as for your variable assignment, you should be able to let people move between ropes
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03:27:57 <oerjanj> cloning children might not be suitable for a playground alas
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03:29:07 <oerjanj> hm, scared ihope away with that comment
03:29:38 <oerjanj> cloning ropes might have fewer problems
03:31:25 <CakeProphet> Wait... how does moving between ropes create variable assignment?
03:31:57 <oerjanj> if persons are data, you have moved that data
03:32:16 <CakeProphet> Placement in the row doesn't mean anything though.. it's not like brainfuck.
03:32:38 <oerjanj> no, but what rope you are under might matter
03:32:40 <CakeProphet> Think of people as function-like datatypes.
03:32:51 <pikhq> Could you do something else evil, like proove Homespring Turing complete?
03:32:58 <CakeProphet> Right right... I could say that being useful... but not the equivaent of variable assignment.
03:32:58 <oerjanj> functions are data to, says this unlambdaist
03:33:22 <pikhq> That's just functional programming.
03:34:01 <CakeProphet> Well... the kids can be anything really... not nessicarily functions... but functions would be the way to go if I were going to make a -practical- language.
03:34:29 <oerjanj> well, ropes can be assigned, just split then move
03:34:31 <CakeProphet> But I'm think of something between ORK, gravity-ish, multi-threading shit :D
03:35:24 <oerjanj> hm, then you would have the ropes being the data and the children the functions acting on them
03:36:15 <CakeProphet> Originally.. in my event-based model... the ropes were events, and the children would "jump" when the event happens... but... I've changed it a bit now.
03:36:53 <oerjanj> well, events can be data too
03:38:01 <CakeProphet> I'm starting to shift away from a practical language to a fun-and-interesting-to-play-around-with-while-still-being-usable-although-a-little-bit-more-difficult-than-your-regular-language type language.
03:38:45 <CakeProphet> You'd need "timing" to get everything to synchronize right in your program...
03:55:30 <CakeProphet> I don't think rope merging is possible... unless the ropes are exactly the same as far as data goes.
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04:01:53 <CakeProphet> Wow... this will be amazingly complex to code in... I like it.
04:02:19 <pikhq> I don't think many people use sterling. . .
04:03:18 <CakeProphet> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/User:CakeProphet (that's the basic outline for JumpRope)
04:03:51 <pikhq> oerjanj: Only a handful of people got lost in the netsplit.
04:05:21 <CakeProphet> JumpRope is turning out to be like a mix between some sort of OO language and a gravity-like system that involves multiple things rather than just a single "gravity"
04:07:44 <oerjanj> "There can be any number of ropes being spun by a single child" sounds a bit unrealistic
04:08:24 <CakeProphet> Is splitting and merging ropes realistic... no... hahahahaha muyhahahahahahaha... I just like imaginging it.
04:08:37 <CakeProphet> And I don't mean a "single" child... there will be two children per every jumprope.
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04:08:45 <oerjanj> btw, only children at the end of a rope should be able to spin it
04:08:59 <oerjanj> inside, or outside, or either?
04:09:34 <oerjanj> if it is inside it could be single, _if_ there are no other children inside the same rope
04:09:36 <CakeProphet> Holding a jumprope.... think of them as the "border" of the rope... any childreen inbetween the two holders will be jumping... but theywill only be spinning.
04:09:58 <oerjanj> but "realistic" restrictions can add to the difficulty of programming
04:10:28 <CakeProphet> Nope... I'm not making restrictions... I'm making it so complex that it'll be difficult.
04:11:02 <CakeProphet> There's so many different options and ways for things to happen.... that the coder will have to set everything up as though it were a puzzle.
04:11:06 <oerjanj> but unnecessary complexity can be ignored
04:11:59 <oerjanj> i mean, restrictions can actually make it less likely that you can ignore a complexity
04:12:21 <CakeProphet> I doubt more-than=one=rope being held by two kids will make anything that much easier.
04:13:06 <CakeProphet> We'll see... I'm still just in the early phases of thinking-things-out.
04:13:52 <oerjanj> hm, actually... if there is no way to add unlimited children then they may have to hold unlimited number of ropes
04:15:03 <oerjanj> or maybe not. the unbounded speeds might be enough to get unlimited memory
04:15:25 <oerjanj> i am assuming you would want turing completeness
04:15:32 <CakeProphet> Yeah... I'm not sure if there's a strict "limit" to how many children can be under one rope... if it's pre-determined by the ropes "length" (range of children), or if unlimited children can just be impossibly fitted into one rope.
04:16:08 <CakeProphet> So far... I've got everything limitless... so chances of turing-ness are looking good.
04:16:53 <pikhq> Unless you prove it impossible to do Brainfuck in it.
04:17:47 <CakeProphet> Unlimited jump tempo... unlimited possibilities for different asynchronizations... unlimited rope geld by a child between anyone, unlimited numbers of children inside a rope.
04:18:20 <oerjanj> i assume you could add new children at any point. how do you assign functions to children?
04:18:21 <CakeProphet> If () is the confines of the rope and a 0 is a child... you could pretty much put them in any combination.
04:18:56 <oerjanj> would there be a limited number of functions or would you write classes of children?
04:20:18 <CakeProphet> I'm thinking either the children are functions... any specific datatype... or an subclass of Child with their own methods.
04:20:25 <oerjanj> who is holding the outermost rope in that diagram?
04:21:11 <oerjanj> will the children always form a line?
04:21:44 <CakeProphet> No idea how I could implement 2-D placement of kids though.
04:21:55 <CakeProphet> And still make it usable... jump ropes are pretty linear.
04:22:28 <CakeProphet> I want to make this as limitless and complex as possible :D
04:22:59 <oerjanj> more like a turing great flood
04:23:16 <CakeProphet> hmmm... I -could- limit two jumpropes per child.. one per hand or something.
04:23:36 <oerjanj> that's what i was thinking
04:24:29 <CakeProphet> Or would it -have- to be like this o( o o o o o o o o o ) o ( o o o o o o o o o o o)0
04:24:46 <CakeProphet> instead of o(( o o o o o o o o o o o ) o o o o o o )
04:25:53 <CakeProphet> Hmmm... actually... I think the children will act like functions... not objects... that will make it more complex.
04:26:13 <CakeProphet> You would need more children... thus more tempos.. and crap...
04:26:28 <CakeProphet> Yeah.. I see what you mean by restrictions creating more interesting situations.
04:27:16 <CakeProphet> It all seems needles though... you could probably accomplish a number of things with just one rope and a few children... so it would be neato if I could implement it so that any usable programable needs a large number of children and ropes.
04:29:17 <CakeProphet> Oh... that's right... the kids aren't functions at all... I totally forgot my idea there.
04:29:28 <CakeProphet> The children act as conduits for a number of situations.
04:30:02 <CakeProphet> Using some Python-like code... it would look like.
04:32:19 <CakeProphet> if Kid1.async(5) from Rope1: jump 3 faster, Kid1 = "h"
04:33:16 <oerjanj> that would make it hard to add an unlimited number
04:34:01 <CakeProphet> It would be hard to do much of anything with -only- variables.
04:34:54 <oerjanj> i mean if each kid has its own name then you cannot add them on the fly
04:35:53 <CakeProphet> When kids are created... they have specific, immutable datatypes... but never functions... they can be lists, strings, integers, or maybe even conditionals if I'm feeling dangerous.
04:37:24 <CakeProphet> "conceive Tom the variable" "Tom jumps in cheesestringRope"
04:37:27 <oerjanj> well, it depends on how you can refer to kids, i suppose
04:37:45 <oerjanj> what i mean by on the fly is:
04:38:07 <oerjanj> add an unlimited number of kids at runtime
04:38:29 <oerjanj> their names cannot all be mentioned in the program
04:38:43 <CakeProphet> how would that be possible in the first place?
04:39:23 <oerjanj> if you have some way of referring to a kid other than a name unique to it
04:39:42 <CakeProphet> Well.. there has to be something identifying them...
04:41:15 <oerjanj> names would work if they were local to a function
04:41:36 <oerjanj> then each function invocation could conceive of a new kid
04:41:43 <CakeProphet> Well... in the language itself.. there will be no functions.
04:41:58 <oerjanj> some kind of lexical scope then
04:42:38 <CakeProphet> THe children themselves will be objects of a class... but that won't come into play in the language itself.
04:44:01 <oerjanj> will the code of the program have to be encoded entirely in the arrangement and data of the ropes and kids?
04:44:10 <CakeProphet> "conveice Tom the variable" Would create a variable object named Tom... variable is a subclass of Child
04:44:50 <CakeProphet> I won't it to be challenging... puzzle-like.
04:45:18 <CakeProphet> I'm considering making -all- statements depending on certain conditions...
04:45:36 <oerjanj> ah, my brain is about to stop working - need to go to bed
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05:40:31 <Razor-X> Emacs has crashed twice since my computer has been on. I guess it's not quite as stable as the rest of the OS.
05:41:02 <RodgerTheGreat> so, you never answered my question: will you kill me if my language has a tape?
05:41:31 <Razor-X> That depends on the advantages I get, and whether it outweighs the pain received from using the tape.
05:42:24 <RodgerTheGreat> how about functions that can be modified on the fly, and socket I/O?
05:42:44 <Razor-X> Maybe I'll just ask Xenu to prove to you that world that is the gestalt being and watch thousands of years of useless faith go down the toilet along with hundreds and thousands of once-devout worshippers masochating (is that a word?) in agony.
05:43:57 <pikhq> Maybe I'll just get a good ol' clambake to show you that Xenu == shit.
05:44:23 <Razor-X> Well, he's not exactly a looker, no. He made our vision spectrum inferior to his.
05:44:26 <RodgerTheGreat> I was thinking about creating loops with [] that are non-conditional and that use a # to break out of the loop (optionally prefaced with a conditional operator).
05:44:30 <CakeProphet> I've extended my concept... check out http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/User:CakeProphet
05:44:50 <pikhq> No, I mean that he is literally made of shit.
05:45:13 <Razor-X> Don't you dare downplay Xenu.
05:46:04 <Razor-X> Wow. Are we creating non-BF languages?
05:46:10 <Razor-X> What is the Esolangs community COMING to?!
05:47:02 <RodgerTheGreat> we're COMING to the realization that some people have blood feuds brewing against BF clones.
05:47:30 <CakeProphet> We've dilutted its greatness by making too many damn clones.
05:47:38 <Razor-X> Wow. I guess we're finally emerging from the Dark Ages.
05:48:04 <Razor-X> No. That sounds too vulgar.
05:48:19 <Razor-X> Stupid BF revealed itself just as the Imagination Nomads invaded Esome.
05:49:08 <Razor-X> Then the old Emperor of Esome split the Empire in two. He created the NotSoEsome which began creating semi-useful languages, and the Western Esome fell into darkness.
05:49:32 <Razor-X> But both NotSoEsome and Esome both embrace BF as their new religion.
05:49:51 <Razor-X> Even though the FsckProphet has revealed himself in later occasions.
05:50:50 <Razor-X> Now Esome is emerging from the Brain Ages. Only to take the entire OSS World by storm, to hopeless colonize the OSS World, and to create a whole breed of new bas**** languages.
05:51:31 <CakeProphet> So... we should all talk JumpRope and how to make it even more kickass.
05:52:41 <Razor-X> But soon, the NotSoEsome will collapse by BFA, the ``newer'' version of BF.
05:53:22 <Razor-X> If this sounds like History class, I'd maybe imply that you were correct, but reveal nothing.
05:54:11 <Razor-X> I can't wait for the Rennaisance.
05:54:30 <Razor-X> I wonder what we'll create! And the Obfuscated-NewLogic wars too.
05:54:57 <RodgerTheGreat> would you be interested in helping be develop synthesys once I get further along in writing the spec?
05:55:06 <Razor-X> Then the worshipers of BF will drive out the BFA infidels from their mailing lists, unite, and begin colonizing.
05:56:42 <RodgerTheGreat> it's going to kinda place emphasis on self-modification while attempting to actually be a useful language.
05:57:56 <RodgerTheGreat> and I'm trying to make the code not look ass-ugly, as some languages have a tendency toward.
06:00:55 <RodgerTheGreat> code modularity and the loading of external libraries seems like a good goal as well.
06:01:05 <CakeProphet> so... if "offset = Childtempo - Ropetempo" would tripping occur when offset = o?
06:02:25 <RodgerTheGreat> 'cause, the offset would have to stay in a particular range to be logical..
06:03:23 <CakeProphet> I was going to make the range for offset being unlimited...
06:03:43 <RodgerTheGreat> well, let's assume the movement of the rope and the kid are sinusoidal.
06:04:34 <RodgerTheGreat> nevermind, then- I'm not going to try to explain this at 1AM.
06:05:03 <CakeProphet> At some point the offset would factor down.
06:06:38 <RodgerTheGreat> if you go three complete times around, you still have only made one circle.
06:07:54 <CakeProphet> Ropetempo/Childtempo - Childtempo/Roadtempo" ????
06:10:00 <RodgerTheGreat> my work here is done. Good... morning... everyone, I'm going to get some sleep.
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06:15:40 <CakeProphet> I need to figure out how the hell offset effects the different increments of asynchronization... and how to even create a workable notation for that.
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07:55:25 <CakeProphet> Holy crap.... head hurts... from trying to... code... in my prototype JumpRope code.
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08:00:49 <Razor-X> Will you get scared if I say ``sine curve'' ? ;)
08:01:52 <CakeProphet> I'm just putting random numbers in as tempos and working with them.
08:02:04 <Razor-X> Blah. T3h family went out all day, and now I must churn my vocabulary.
08:06:57 <CakeProphet> If I can compile this thing... I dare say it may be one of the most difficult language I've ever seen.
08:30:50 <CakeProphet> Check out the hello world prog: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/User:CakeProphet
08:31:02 <CakeProphet> I realized halfway through I could have made it so much simpler.
08:54:58 <Arrogant> That is not worse than Malbolge, I have to say.
09:03:55 <CakeProphet> Arrogant, o,o It took me near 45 minutes of tedious, repetitive typing and math calculating to get it to print "Hello, world!" ....how sucky is Malbolge?
09:04:20 <Arrogant> Malbolge encrypts the instruction after executing it
09:04:23 <Arrogant> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Malbolge
09:29:10 <Razor-X> CakeProphet: Don't think you've made the worst language in the world.
09:29:19 <Razor-X> It's hard to beat Malbolge.
09:29:47 <Razor-X> The Hello World program of INTERCAL is 200+ lines, IIRC (when not using the standard library).
09:29:49 <CakeProphet> Hmm.. well I wasn't even going for difficult to begin with.. so...
09:30:05 <pgimeno> (not actually hard to beat it)
09:30:25 <Razor-X> Well Malbolge skirts that invisible line of still programmable.
09:31:12 <pgimeno> it has severe weaknesses as a cryptosystem
09:32:13 <pgimeno> see http://www.lscheffer.com/malbolge.shtml - near the end, a section entitled "It could be worse"
09:35:13 <pgimeno> programmability in Malbolge comes from its weaknesses
09:42:49 <pgimeno> however, making a language hard to program in is not very original as a goal
09:44:40 <Razor-X> I think that's the slump the entire Esolangs Community (hereby referred to as Esome) suffers under, IMO.
09:45:23 <pgimeno> exploring new possibilities is nice, though; making original contributions is too
09:45:39 <pgimeno> but I especially miss the humour part in recent esolangs
09:45:51 <pgimeno> that's the very heart of INTERCAL
09:46:07 <Razor-X> Well, Esolangs are becoming quite academic now.
09:46:18 <pgimeno> I have an idea in my mind which I want to develop
09:46:35 <pgimeno> where you specify what NOT to do
09:46:53 <Razor-X> None of my ideas seem novel enough. I had an idea to base on sine curves, but I need more thinking time.
09:47:51 <Razor-X> I think we really need a nice competitive language, like Redcode but more esoteric/fun too.
09:48:48 <Razor-X> I know but... no offense to GregorR, it just seems a bit... blah.
09:50:10 <pgimeno> the types in Numb would be non-negative (unsigned), non-numeric (string), non-real (imaginary)
09:50:39 <GregorR> "<Razor-X> None of my ideas seem novel enough." ... "I think we really need a nice competitive language" \ "<pgimeno> there's already FyB" \ "<Razor-X> (generic argument)
09:50:44 <GregorR> Speaking of being novel :P
09:51:06 <Razor-X> Well, I can go into specifics if you want.
09:51:58 <pgimeno> I'm still trying to get ideas on what to do to get Numb to actually execute code; I'm considering a statement "DON'T OBEY NEXT" and a clause "DON'T <do something> UNLESS blah"
09:52:41 <Razor-X> It seems too simple an extension to BF. We can make a similar extension to any stack-based language relatively easily and get a competitive language.
09:52:57 <Razor-X> pgimeno: Heh. Lots of INTERCAL inspiration it seems.
09:53:29 <pgimeno> not exactly but it's harder and harder to be original :)
09:54:00 <Razor-X> Doesen't mean we can't try.
09:54:38 <pgimeno> yeah but I'm poor in imagination
09:54:56 <pgimeno> I already wrote the BitXtreme specification
09:55:08 <GregorR> Hi pgimeno. And now, I'm going to sleep :P
09:55:15 <GregorR> Razor-X: That's hardly an argument.
09:55:34 <Razor-X> GregorR: It's not bad by any means, I just was hoping to make something *more* original.
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13:17:50 <ihope> Is {} a valid compound statement in C?
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14:01:46 <ihope> What about {something()}? Is that valid, or would I have to use {something();}?
14:03:10 <ihope> Is there a way to avoid using semicolons in a C program?
14:04:08 <pgimeno> I think at least one semicolon is needed
14:04:21 <pgimeno> for everything but an empty main(), that is
14:05:10 <pgimeno> or an infinite loop: main(){while(0){}}
14:05:24 <pgimeno> that opens a whole can o' worms
14:05:40 <pgimeno> it is possible to write someting
14:07:40 <fizzie> main(){while(printf("Hello, world!\n"),0){}}
14:07:42 <pgimeno> er, while(0) was not an infinite loop
14:07:57 <fizzie> I think comp.lang.c had a discussion about this once.
14:08:03 <fizzie> (Or maybe it was somewhere in IRC.)
14:08:04 <pgimeno> main(){while(expr,expr,0){}}
14:08:17 <ihope> What's the comma do?
14:08:48 <pgimeno> it concatenates expressions to form an expresion whose result is the last in the comma series
14:09:09 <pgimeno> e.g. the result of 1,2,3,0 is 0
14:09:16 <fizzie> Also, in "a,b" the "a" and "b" are evaluated sequentially, from left to right, with a sequence point in-between.
14:09:39 <fizzie> It's rather useful in, say, for(i = 0, j = 0; ....)
14:09:45 <pgimeno> you can't use do, for, if, while... as expressions though
14:09:46 <ihope> Oh, say, is main(); a valid program?
14:09:57 <pgimeno> nope, functions require {}
14:10:24 <pgimeno> that's a stupid limitation IMO but anyway
14:10:45 <pgimeno> well, I think these are prototypes
14:11:23 <fizzie> "Hello world without semicolon": http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/browse_thread/thread/eaaa5febf2f108f7/b6762266408b5e10
14:11:38 <ihope> Well, I'd say that C-without-semicolon is Turing-complete.
14:13:14 <ihope> Just use recursion instead of loops.
14:14:48 <pgimeno> impossible, C is not TC ;)
14:18:33 <ihope> Even without malloc(), you have local variables.
14:19:25 <ihope> Does the C spec state that storage is bounded?
14:19:38 <fizzie> We had a discussion about *that* here.
14:20:26 <pgimeno> the C spec states that sizeof(a pointer) returns an int IIRC
14:20:33 <fizzie> I don't recall the results, though. I think it depended on the reading of the standard: the storage needs to be addressable, at least, but I don't remember if the spec implicitly allowed or disallowed "int of infinitely many bits".
14:22:33 <pgimeno> unfortunately the result is not a float, where infinity is a valid value
14:23:01 <fizzie> You (possibly) might still have an unlimited integer.
14:23:56 <pgimeno> that's what I recall from the discussion, at least
14:24:22 <fizzie> I'm not sure it was very clear, but could be.
14:26:37 <pgimeno> I think that the same limitation of sizeof() applies to all types
14:26:58 <fizzie> C-without-semicolon doesn't even need recursion for looping, btw: http://colin.tky.hut.fi/~fis/fibo.c.txt is a very simple iterative fibonacci proggie.
14:28:17 <pgimeno> heh, true... the while() itself does loop
14:29:25 <fizzie> It's still a bit iffy: can't really declare variables (outside parameter lists) or return anything from functions (without using a pointer as an output parameter).
14:31:22 <ihope> Okay, let's see here...
14:31:27 <pgimeno> I'd write that sentence the other way around: you can declare variables (within parameter lists) and return anything from functions (using a pointer as an output parameter)
14:31:45 <fizzie> Perhaps I'm just a bit negative.
14:31:57 <fizzie> You must be one of the "glass is half full" type of people.
14:33:15 <ihope> Wait... can we write C-without-semicolon without using if, for, or while?
14:33:23 <ihope> Or until, if there's such a thing?
14:34:46 <fizzie> There's no "until", but "yes".
14:35:15 <fizzie> My first thought did not work out. :p
14:39:31 <fizzie> You could possibly use a switch.
14:41:59 <pgimeno> yeah, maybe, like line numbers in BASIC
14:42:55 <fizzie> I mean, switch(..., ..., 0) {}
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14:43:38 <fizzie> But if you outlaw everything the spec calls an "selection-statement" or an "iteration-statement", then it might be impossible.
14:44:32 <pgimeno> in Spain there's a saying: what you want is that the bull catches me!
14:46:33 <fizzie> At least any "statement" you could put an expression in either includes a ";" or is a selection/iteration-statement (if, switch, while).
14:46:59 <fizzie> (According to my reading of C99 6.8.)
14:48:20 <pgimeno> "What if you're in a street and there's a bull coming towards you?" "I'd climb to a fence" "And if there's no fence?" "I'd look for a shop or something" "And if there's no shop" "I'd try to run to the closest corner" "And if there's a wall?" "I'd try to jump it" "And if it's too high?" "Hey, what you want is me to be caught by the bull!"
14:54:16 <pgimeno> hm, according to the thread there's a problem: in C89 main() must return a value and thus needs a semicolon.
14:57:14 <pgimeno> incidentally, you can avoid both ; and {} by using trigraphs
14:57:23 <fizzie> There's no trigraph for ;.
14:58:15 <pikhq> pgimeno: Funny, I thought that was part of the POSIX spec, and not the C spec.
14:58:36 <fizzie> There are trigraphs for #, ], |, [, ^, }, \, { and ~.
14:58:46 <fizzie> "No other trigraph sequences exist."
14:58:49 <pgimeno> fizzie: I know, you have to avoid ; as discussed here
14:59:05 <fizzie> Ah, right; misinterpreted, then.
14:59:25 <fizzie> Trigraphs are just sick, though.
14:59:28 <pgimeno> a not very good wording on my side
15:01:08 <pgimeno> pikhq: do you mean the trigraphs as part of POSIX?
15:01:34 <pikhq> pgimeno: No, I mean the part about main() needing to return a value.
15:02:17 <pgimeno> there's a discussion here: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/browse_thread/thread/eaaa5febf2f108f7/64fd1228e56f23ec?hide_quotes=no
15:02:30 <pgimeno> (part of the above pointed by fizzie)
15:02:54 <pikhq> Hmm. Couldn't someone do some C coding with stuff like if(step_1) {null} if(step_2) {null} to avoid semicolons? :p
15:03:08 <pikhq> Hmm. Couldn't someone do some C coding with stuff like if(step_1) {} if(step_2) {} to avoid semicolons? :p
15:03:30 <fizzie> Wasn't that what we've been talking about?
15:03:51 <pikhq> Oh. Someone mentioned that already?
15:04:34 <pikhq> This is giving me some evil obfuscated C ideas. . .
15:08:03 <fizzie> POSIX does give additional semantics for the return values, though. The C only defines the meaning of returning 0, EXIT_SUCCESS or EXIT_FAILURE from main.
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15:49:43 <ihope> "My first dream that I can remember was a nightmare. I was about 3 years old. I dreamed that my eyes popped out of my head and they were flying away from me and I tried to catch them, I never did"
15:51:02 <ihope> http://ld4all.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=21920#21920
15:51:14 <ihope> I never forget to paste the URL's right after quoting...
16:20:39 <pgimeno> damn, I was planning to start using minix3 but it would seem it doesn't suppoprt virtual memory or shared libraries... that is a serious limitation
16:35:37 <ihope> So? BF is a serious limitation.
16:41:42 <pgimeno> I don't use BF for serious work, but I do use Linux for it
17:10:22 * ihope tries to listen to this sound clip, but fails
17:10:29 <ihope> "Enough is enough! I have--"
17:11:21 <ihope> Ah, there we go. "Enough is enough! I have had it with these mother[beep]ing planes on this mother[beep]ing snake!"
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17:15:05 <pgimeno> the planes will need snake oil
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17:22:45 <RodgerTheGreat> is it odd that I seriously want this movie to exist? http://i.somethingawful.com/inserts/articlepics/photoshop/12-30-05-hybrids/Trent.jpg
17:23:53 <ihope> What do you want, universe?
17:24:18 <RodgerTheGreat> It would star Samuel Jackson, so it'd be more like "Hello world, MuthaF#@ka!"
17:24:44 <ihope> You mean hello, muthaf#@in world?
17:25:45 <Keymaker> is snakes on a plane already in movies?
17:25:56 <Keymaker> or whatever that soap was called
17:29:15 <ihope> A Snakes on a Plane opera!
17:42:42 * Keymaker returns to an old quine work..
17:44:55 <ihope> Oh, I'll just let someone else write the spec for Thubi :-P
17:45:29 <ihope> It's a lot like Thue.
17:46:10 <Keymaker> write at least something at esowiki.. if i understand it i may expand the article :)
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17:58:37 <ihope> So what's \? used for in C?
18:05:58 <fizzie> You mean "\ and ?" or the combination "\?"?
18:06:16 <ihope> The escape code \?.
18:08:35 <fizzie> I assume it's used to write something like "??=" without having it changed to "#" when trigraph processing is enabled.
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18:09:40 <fizzie> ISO/IEC 9899:1999 (C99), 5.2.1.1 ("Trigraph sequences"), paragraph 2: "EXAMPLE The following source line printf("Eh???/n"); becomes (after replacement of the trigraph sequence ??/) printf("Eh?\n");"
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18:09:49 <ihope> You'd write "?\?=" instead?
18:10:09 <fizzie> Or "\?\?=", if you want to be explicit about it.
18:10:16 <fizzie> Either way would work.
18:10:51 <ihope> Okay. I won't include it in Thubi, then.
18:11:25 <fizzie> Although I have to admit I haven't really been paying attention to ?s in my strings.
18:15:20 <lindi-> i just get 'trigraph.c:9:19: warning: trigraph ??/ ignored' from printf("Eh???/n");
18:15:51 <lindi-> with -trigraphs i get "trigraph.c:9:19: warning: trigraph ??/ converted to \"
18:17:26 <fizzie> Yes, well, no-one uses trigraphs, so I guess gcc thinks it prudent to warn.
18:17:55 <fizzie> But it does convert trigraphs if you use -ansi or -std=x, where 'x' is one of the ISO standards.
18:18:13 <ihope> What're trigraphs for?
18:18:54 <fizzie> Some computing environments lack some of the punctuation (like {} or []) C needs.
18:19:24 <ihope> What computing environments are those?
18:19:36 <fizzie> Probably something very ancient.
18:20:28 <lindi-> nokia communicator 9110 for one does not do { easily
18:20:41 <fizzie> Early ASCII versions before the 1968 standard lacked ^.
18:20:48 <fizzie> (They used to have an up-arrow there.)
18:20:57 <lindi-> i wrote a filter to convert "[[" to "{" before i heard about trigraphs
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21:02:42 <pikhq> ihope: The ISO 640 character set has those symbols as optional (ISO 640 is a subset of ASCII). . .
21:03:11 <pikhq> They're now outdated, but provide for some evil code obfuscation possibilities.
21:16:16 <pikhq> He's getting it. :p
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21:35:30 <GregorR> Hm, does palmOS also have the funky smiley-face for char 1?
21:35:32 <RodgerTheGreat> because the palm fonts don't have characters for low-order ASCII
21:36:48 <GregorR> Hey, watch a DirectNet DHT forming: http://directnet.sourceforge.net/dht.avi ^^
21:58:42 <RodgerTheGreat> hey, GregorR- I made something for you. DO NOT PUT THE BABY IN THE PIXEL ART! http://rodger.shadowarts.org/images/BabyPixel.gif
21:59:29 <GregorR> It doesn't /quite/ fit the theme.
21:59:34 <GregorR> I'll accept it if you put the yellow bg on.
21:59:44 <GregorR> Erm, and is it the same size?
22:00:03 <RodgerTheGreat> okie dokie. (It's on a transparency atm. I can rescale it as needed)
22:00:42 <GregorR> Just make sure it's the same size as all the others, put the same color yellow as the BG (it's 254-254-0) and give me a copyright line.
22:01:47 <GregorR> No license except that I can put it on the site :-P
22:02:11 <GregorR> And I may put it on merch if said merch has a bunch of 'em.
22:06:21 <RodgerTheGreat> do you want a copyright notice *on* the image, or what?
22:07:42 <GregorR> No, I put it below the image.l
22:07:50 <GregorR> I just need the name for the notice so I can put it there :-P
22:09:19 <RodgerTheGreat> license granted for use on website, merchandise sold, and any other direct or indirect representation of the above image.
22:14:38 <RodgerTheGreat> this is a doodle I drew the other day of how I imagine the ravenous beast looking: http://rodger.shadowarts.org/art/Wumpus.gif
22:15:44 <GregorR> http://www.donotputthebaby.com/index.php?s=Pixel
22:22:02 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: Do you have any notes on SYNTHESIS?
22:22:13 <Razor-X> Ow. My wrist is cramping. Mind my slow speed.
22:22:58 <RodgerTheGreat> not at the moment. I'm trying to decide how I'm going to handle memory, which kinda defines how a lot of other things should work.
22:23:41 <Razor-X> What's the basic concept about?
22:24:29 <RodgerTheGreat> self modification via recursive string manipulation and evaluation.
22:25:41 <RodgerTheGreat> using a tape-based memory makes conditionals really simple, which I like. However, there may be a more appropriate way to do them.
22:25:55 <Razor-X> Recursive string manipulation? Example?
22:27:04 <RodgerTheGreat> well, you could have a function that evaluates itself near the end. By having that same function modify the string that represents itself, it could change from iteration to iteration.
22:27:27 <Razor-X> Oh. So like a standard functional language recursive function?
22:28:40 <RodgerTheGreat> a language based on self-modification naturally needs a fairly straightforward syntax, so that it isn't extremely painful to use this ability.
22:29:19 <Razor-X> I suggest a simple two-array system, one of functions and one of arrays.
22:29:52 <RodgerTheGreat> so, each "cell" represents an entire string, rather than a character?
22:30:13 <Razor-X> Using a set of builtins, we can add to an array slot, modify the slot, push a string, pop a string, and such.
22:30:40 <RodgerTheGreat> yes. string manipulation could be stack-based in some way.
22:31:29 <Razor-X> We can make it Unlambda style where the builtins are simple letters. That'll make it easy to swap the arrays so you can have functions modifying functions.
22:31:52 <RodgerTheGreat> in this case, separate arrays for functions and "normal" strings would be unnecessary, by just saying that you can attempt to evaluate any string as a function.
22:32:12 <Razor-X> The only reason I wanted the seperate arrays was for self-code-modification.
22:32:53 <Razor-X> The only thing unchangable in the language is the structure of the two arrays and the builtins theselves. Everything else is game.
22:33:10 <RodgerTheGreat> well, we could make it buffer a string whenever it's evaluated, and then any modifications to the string while it runs would be ignored until it iterates again.
22:33:49 <Razor-X> Well, I was making the assumption that this is a functional world.
22:34:01 <Razor-X> It's just one mutable string on a stack.
22:35:51 <RodgerTheGreat> what type of operators do you think this language would need, on a basic level?
22:36:46 <Razor-X> Push string, pop string, concat strings, ....
22:36:53 <Razor-X> Are we making this turing complete?
22:37:14 <RodgerTheGreat> it's easy to work with characters by themselves, but working on larger groups in a meaningful way can get more complex..
22:37:32 <Razor-X> Then we need integer operations too.
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00:19:16 <ihope> What does EgoBot do to interpreters on !eof?
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00:19:32 <GregorR> ihope: It closes the pipe from EgoBot.
00:20:15 * pikhq really, really is starting to hate GCC
00:20:25 <ihope> So it'd probably be easy to handle EOF as a special case...
00:20:28 * GregorR is really, really starting to love GCC.
00:20:39 <GregorR> ihope: Trivial. if (feof(stdin))
00:21:04 <ihope> My new language invents two new "characters", and one of them is EOF.
00:21:22 <pikhq> I swear, somewhere in the code of it, there is a "if(code_is_valid()) {give_error_about_code}" statement. :p
00:21:48 <ihope> The other one is "beginning of data", which is the only character which can't be output.
00:21:51 <GregorR> if (pikhq_does_not_understand_subtle_failure_in_code()) { give_error_about_code(); }
00:22:11 <pikhq> GregorR: I'm quite probably not noticing something really stupid. . .
00:22:26 <pikhq> I'm just going to bitch and moan while I take a long break from it. ;)
00:22:42 <GregorR> In the interim, watch my cool DHT animation:
00:22:47 <GregorR> http://directnet.sourceforge.net/dht.avi
00:23:32 <pikhq> If only there were a "Pikhq C" spec (which is merely exactly how I *think* C works). :p
00:24:30 <ihope> Now, the spec for Thubi is probably much longer than it needs to be...
00:26:17 <ihope> Thubi doin' this: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Thubi
00:27:33 * ihope adds Thubi to the language list
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00:41:20 * pikhq just continues to bitch & moan for a bi
00:45:13 <GregorR> Typo or Freudian slip? You decide!
00:47:57 <RodgerTheGreat> why would anyone bitch and moan for a BF? There are tons.
00:48:18 <Razor-X> You're missing the AOLer slang here.
00:49:23 <Razor-X> Wow. I never thought someone would be worse than me in internet slang.
00:50:04 <Razor-X> I'm sorta proud that I'm negligent to all slang everywhere, even though I'm a teenager.
00:50:20 <Razor-X> I understand but don't use a single bit of it.
00:50:54 <Razor-X> I chafe when someone uses a `z' to imply a plural to look ``cool'', it's not cool, it's improper English bub.
00:53:40 <RodgerTheGreat> I've been known to make use of 13375P3/-\|< upon occasion, but I normally do so for humorous effec.
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00:54:56 <Razor-X> My laughs are all mimicable noises (``Heh'', ``Meh'') and I use emotes because I think English needs attitudnals (or mimesis).
00:56:01 <RodgerTheGreat> "KEKEKE" and "Nya" are two of my least favorite internet phrases.
00:56:12 <RodgerTheGreat> they aren't actually words, because words convey meaning.
00:57:33 <Razor-X> Well, they come from Japanese mimesis.
00:57:58 <Razor-X> Kekeke is the traditional Japanese laugh, and Nya is a particle used by women to sound more feminine/cute.
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01:17:39 <GregorR> If you used strcpy in your code, I will personally hunt you down and kill you.
01:18:39 <RodgerTheGreat> of course, emotes are primarily useful as another way to convey your emotional context, just like emoticons. They're vital to proper interpretation of people's words in the absence of vocal tone.
01:19:30 <ihope> Is the plural of mimesis mimeses?
01:19:43 <Razor-X> I would think so, logically.
01:20:41 <ihope> You mean Latinally?
01:20:48 <Razor-X> In a Japanese scientific text, you'd read something like ``The wings make the sound of *kya kya*'' or something similar. It's considered proper Japanese and a shame that it's not proper English.
01:21:04 <pikhq> GregorR: Know a better way of copying one string to another? If you do, thank God; I'm sick of this.
01:21:19 <GregorR> strcpy is not only a bad way of doing it, but an insecure way of doing it.
01:21:30 <Razor-X> Srncpy! The Lord has Come!
01:21:33 <pikhq> Which was proven by my segfault.
01:21:47 <GregorR> Don't use C if you don't know C -_-
01:21:59 <pikhq> I'm *learning* it.
01:22:11 <Razor-X> C is boring and not fun at all.
01:22:25 <ihope> Haskell is more fun.
01:22:30 <ihope> Thubi is the most fun.
01:22:31 <Razor-X> Because years after it was made people realized how bad the basic functions are.
01:22:32 <pikhq> Hmm. How does strncpy help when you don't know the size of the string to be copied until runtime?
01:22:37 <GregorR> C is fantastic, both logical and well-oriented to the system.
01:23:07 <pikhq> That doesn't seem very. . . robust. . .
01:23:12 <Razor-X> Or, you can store the input in a dynamic buffer and use the size of that to get input.
01:24:22 <GregorR> strncpy helps because you can pass that length into the copying function, yeesh.
01:24:52 <Razor-X> Dynamic buffers are the real way its done.
01:25:03 <Razor-X> What'd you think pikhq ? Input resizes for you automagically?
01:25:13 <pikhq> Would strncpy(foo, bar, strlen(bar)) be considered abusive?
01:25:33 <GregorR> Why are you having a segfault? Did you misallocate foo?
01:26:05 <pikhq> Razor-X: I'm jumping from Tcl, a high-level language which is much, much closer to Lisp than C, to C. . .
01:26:23 <pikhq> GregorR: Quite probably. :/
01:28:06 <ihope> So why not just use the indestructible languages? :-)
01:28:29 <pikhq> Trying to learn C.
01:29:03 <pikhq> The whole point of this excercise is learning C; if I use Tcl or Lisp, then I don't do what I set out to do.
01:29:54 <GregorR> What are you trying to write in your effort to learn C
01:30:11 <GregorR> Seems like you're setting your goal a bit high for your first C program ...
01:30:31 <pikhq> Just a very early effort.
01:30:45 <pikhq> It's amature-level coding, at least
01:31:05 <pikhq> Trying to write a mildly sophisticated Brainfuck compiler. . .
01:33:35 <pikhq> Meh. Now I'm to the point where I figured I'd have issues. . .
01:35:46 <ihope> How sophisticated?
01:36:14 <pikhq> At the moment, not at all.
01:36:28 <pikhq> Just got framework in place for it to be sophisticated.
01:36:40 <ihope> So it's "increment, increment, increment"?
01:38:22 * pikhq realises that the chunk of code that's segfaulting doesn't even need to be in there, anyways
01:43:57 <pikhq> Great. *Now* it's somehow segfaulting in fprintf. . .
01:44:15 <ihope> What's fprintf do?
01:44:24 <ihope> I know printf is a formatted print, but...
01:44:27 <pikhq> fprintf(out, "#include <stdio.h>\n");
01:44:38 <pikhq> It outputs to a file descriptor. . .
01:44:51 <ihope> So is out not a valid file descriptor or something?
01:45:18 <ihope> Or maybe the arguments are in the wrong order? :-)
01:45:31 <pikhq> Forgot to check for validity of file descriptors. x_x
01:47:54 <pikhq> The file to be written to hasn't been made yet. x_x
02:26:07 <RodgerTheGreat> does anyone here read xkcd? http://xkcd.com/index.html
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03:07:36 <CakeProphet> AH there... moved my concept to PlayGround.
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03:33:57 <CakeProphet> I have a neato programming language idea.. so neato I've actually made a page for it.
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03:57:08 <pikhq> Anyone know what EFAULT or "Bad address" means from fopen?
03:57:50 <pikhq> fopen(3) does not enlighten.
03:58:29 <pikhq> Ah. Missed a few lines in the man page.
04:00:08 <pikhq> EFAULT pathname points outside your accessible address space.
04:00:30 <pikhq> That. . . doesn't mean anything. . .
04:19:43 <Razor-X> Do you now understand the horrible amount of masochism C really is?
04:20:01 <Razor-X> It's worse than most Esolangs by a long shot.
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13:46:50 * pikhq less than gently curses at fopen
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14:38:57 <Keymaker> i guess the committee has the pool of tasks finished? :)
14:40:28 <Keymaker> is befunge-98 (which is used in the competition) basically befunge-93 but has infinite area?
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15:40:14 <fizzie> There are the cheaty "jump" and "set IP delta" commands.
15:40:21 <fizzie> And the whole module system.
15:40:26 <fizzie> And it's "Funge-98", isn't it?
15:42:06 <Keymaker> i can't find the specs anywhere!
15:42:39 <fizzie> http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:Fg0Q7nFPKOUJ:catseye.mine.nu:8080/projects/funge98/doc/funge98.html
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18:18:56 <Razor-X> Committee members should join ##quantum right now. Thank you ^^
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18:53:17 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
18:53:19 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
18:53:23 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon cat reload
18:53:25 <EgoBot> 2 EgoBot: daemon EgoBot reload
18:53:37 <EgoBot> keeps getting abused :(<CTCP>
18:53:43 * EgoBot keeps getting abused :(
19:01:28 <pikhq> !EgoBot is #esoteric's bitch
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19:19:37 <Razor-X> !Egobot wants to have fun with Snakes on a Plane
19:19:50 <Razor-X> !EgoBot wants to have fun with Snakes on a Plane
19:19:52 * EgoBot wants to have fun with Snakes on a Plane
19:20:53 <GregorR-W> http://www.donotputthebaby.com/index.php?s=Snakes
19:22:16 <pikhq> And now, I've got one huge-ass major issue with my Brainfuck compiler. . .
19:22:32 <pikhq> The input file and the output file are switched.
19:24:21 <pikhq> Somehow, I pass the function compile a pointer to the input file and a string with the output file. Somehow, it tries reading from the output and writing to the input.
19:26:56 <pikhq> I step through it by hand, and I just can't figure it out.
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21:18:41 <ihope> Quantum INTERCAL doesn't look right.
21:19:18 <ihope> So if you have a register that's both 1 and 3 in Quantum INTERCAL, and you output the register, both 1 and 3 are printed?
21:20:35 <GregorR-W> That would definitely fall under the category "not right"
21:21:56 <ihope> Yeah. And that spec doesn't mention angles at all.
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21:54:36 <GregorR-W> http://directnet.sourceforge.net/255dht.avi ... that is all.
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21:57:50 <GregorR-W> That's my accomplishment for this weekend :P
22:21:51 <ihope> ERROR: Coder not of sufficient intelligence.
22:23:45 <CakeProphet> Can someone please input "lol" to this channel as long as the number 1 is equal to the number 1?
22:24:08 <GregorR-W> In case you didn't notice, I refuted the "IRP is TC" argument on the wiki.
22:25:04 <ihope> lollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollol
22:25:14 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR-W: you forgot one thing: there can be an infinite number of human CPU's running code in a room, providing potentially unlimited program and memory space.
22:25:49 <RodgerTheGreat> I believe that with sufficient coordinated IRP interpreters running, you could do anything.
22:26:19 <ihope> It's a series of tubes.
22:26:23 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm talking about using it as a multiprocessing environment.
22:26:43 <RodgerTheGreat> well, we know for sure it's not a truck that you can just- that you can just dump something on.
22:26:56 <CakeProphet> THat makes me want to make a programming language that works like a series of tubes and call it "the internet"
22:27:14 <ivan`> i just dumped something into my tubes
22:27:38 <RodgerTheGreat> CakeProphet: remember that massive, MASSIVE amounts of data could clog the tubes.
22:28:00 <ivan`> bittorrent is several terabytes per second of traffic
22:28:04 <ivan`> the tubes seem to be working fine
22:28:23 <RodgerTheGreat> and delay the delivery of internets to your office until yesterday when sent on friday.
22:29:57 <ivan`> i'd estimate google's doing about an exabyte a day of web traffic
22:30:25 <ivan`> their crawler's probably doing about as much
22:31:13 <ivan`> they should publish their webalizer stats. heh.
22:33:05 <ivan`> er. petabytes. sorry.
22:33:36 <ivan`> one petabytes please
22:33:57 <ivan`> it's so big, you should always pluralize it
22:34:20 <CakeProphet> petabyte... sounds like a children's food.
22:34:53 <ihope> That'd be pediabyte.
22:35:34 <ihope> An encyclopedia for children would be called Pediapedia.
22:38:42 <CakeProphet> It's fuuuuuun.... and I'm pretty sure it's Turing complete... which kind of scares me....
22:38:57 <ihope> Wikipedia is Turing-complete, you're saying?
22:40:28 <CakeProphet> I mean.. it has a bunch of control flow statement-like templates... so it can do logic...
22:44:21 <ihope> Can it do infinite loops?
22:45:12 <RodgerTheGreat> if you can do infinite loops, math, and store variables, you can create a turing-complete system.
22:45:52 <CakeProphet> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/ParserFunctions
22:45:58 <ihope> But the basic components don't have to include infinite loops, math, or variables.
22:46:47 <CakeProphet> Maybe if you had a template that had itself as part of the template...
22:47:06 <RodgerTheGreat> recursive function calls can simulate looping- that could work.
22:47:25 * CakeProphet uses recursive function calls all the time for loops ;)
22:47:53 <CakeProphet> Not sure you'd want to do that... it might bog the server down a lot.
22:48:00 <ihope> CakeProphet: won't work. The sub-template won't get substituted.
22:48:23 <ihope> RodgerTheGreat: variables can be simulated using state transformers.
22:48:28 <CakeProphet> Then make two identical templates... and have one substitute one to the other and vice versa.
22:49:05 <ihope> Functions that take local variables and return their new values, that is.
22:49:13 <ihope> CakeProphet: I don't think that'd work, either.
22:49:25 <CakeProphet> They probably have guards against that anyways.
22:49:49 <CakeProphet> To prevent people from.. uh... fucking up the server that way :D
22:49:51 <ihope> I once managed to get a <!-- WARNING: Template loop detected -->
22:50:01 <RodgerTheGreat> if we can't do infinite loops, can we do finite ones? For... Next and the like?
22:50:10 <CakeProphet> Yup... it'd be possible if it didn't lock it.
22:50:30 <CakeProphet> Well... I think it has some kind of for functionality.
22:50:51 <ihope> for n = 1 to 100000000000000000000
22:50:52 <RodgerTheGreat> you could simulate a LOT of infinite loops with for... next's.
22:52:37 <RodgerTheGreat> can a language be turing-complete if it has a finite cycle limit that *can* be as high as you want?
22:53:02 <CakeProphet> Hmmm... it has a BoolHash template... not sure what that does though.
22:53:55 <CakeProphet> But it does have functions, boolean crap, and logic gates...... but functions aren't even nessicary for turing completeness...
22:54:25 <RodgerTheGreat> all you really need is something to build basic math from, and you can simulate most conditionals.
22:55:31 <CakeProphet> Hmm.. no idea how you could simulate a conditional.
22:56:51 <GregorR-W> You can't predict how many cycles a program will take until it's done.
22:57:09 <GregorR-W> So for a language to be Turing complete you cannot have a finite cycle limit.
22:57:25 <CakeProphet> You also can't predict the future in general.
22:58:01 <RodgerTheGreat> you can predict the future, given complete data, but in practice it would generally take slower than realtime to figure out.
22:58:39 <GregorR-W> RodgerTheGreat: That's working under classical mechanics.
22:59:45 <RodgerTheGreat> quantum mechanics, to me, are only based on probabilistic calculations because we don't yet completely understand the mechanics underlying them. I am a firm proponent of an ultimately mechanical universe.
23:00:49 <RodgerTheGreat> many complex systems appear to defy mechanical thinking when their workings are not fully explored.
23:00:50 <CakeProphet> The universe is magical... there... no need to explain it.
23:01:01 <GregorR-W> RodgerTheGreat: Yeah, I can agree with that.
23:03:46 <ihope> RodgerTheGreat: under the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, there's no randomness involved.
23:03:51 * CakeProphet wishes he had the know-how to make a "fuzzy programming language"
23:04:01 <CakeProphet> Can't really control it... but it works... sometimes
23:04:52 <CakeProphet> Not fuzzy logic... although that'd be fun too (A "maybe" boolean)
23:05:20 -!- sparr has changed nick to sparrwork.
23:06:50 <ihope> True, false, surely true, surely false...
23:07:44 <CakeProphet> The language would be called "sometimes"... and it would be as reliable as I am...
23:10:05 <CakeProphet> An "almost true" boolean.. for when things are just sooooo close to be the correct value./
23:10:44 <ihope> What's wrong with yes, maybe, no?
23:10:58 <CakeProphet> Which would then spawn things such as "if x is more true than y" to see which one is just more almost true than the other.
23:11:10 <CakeProphet> That would actually have applications for not-so-definite systems.
23:11:33 <GregorR-W> I need to write a scripting language based loosely on Glass but with less horrible.
23:12:35 <CakeProphet> Hmmm... maybe useful for language parsing....
23:12:57 <CakeProphet> You could comparse if the word stated is more true with one value than the other... and whatnot.
23:15:06 <CakeProphet> Not a lot of languages can handle uncertainty... so that would be.. hmm.. difficult to create effectively.
23:38:22 <sparr_> Glass, now with less horrible!
23:52:12 -!- CXII has joined.
00:09:44 <Razor-X> As of now the committee has confirmed the pool of challenges. We hope you will be pleasantly amused and challenged by our set of tasks. The competiton will begin in 52 minutes with the unveiling of the tasks.
00:14:22 -!- CXI has quit (Connection timed out).
00:16:24 <GregorR-W> Does the wiki page actually mention the dates?
00:16:47 <Razor-X> Thank you again Informed Committee Member.
00:17:23 <GregorR-W> I knew the dates, I just couldn't find them on the wiki page :-P
00:19:20 <Razor-X> Be prepared to get your mind blown with the awesome death-defying requirements we make of you.
00:19:48 <Razor-X> I'm sorry but, there are no DF interpreters involved.
00:19:59 <pikhq> Proving Malbolge Turing complete? :p
00:21:02 <GregorR-W> Another one is a reimplementation of Emacs.
00:21:07 <GregorR-W> The latter sort of usurps the former though.
00:21:08 <pikhq> MY EYES! MY BRAIN! MY SANITY!!!
00:21:17 <Razor-X> We also ask to make a C preprocessor.
00:21:19 <pikhq> One need only implement Elisp.
00:21:34 <ihope> You also need to implement a raytracer.
00:21:44 <Razor-X> You gave away the good one *sob*.
00:22:10 <GregorR-W> And then use the raytracer to reimplement DOOM.
00:22:23 <GregorR-W> (Preferably DOOM3-quality, but DOOM{1,2} accepted as well)
00:22:50 <ihope> And a roguelike. You must write a roguelike.
00:23:10 <pikhq> Well, a roguelike is much, much saner to do. . .
00:23:18 <pikhq> Still friggin' insane, but. . .
00:23:44 <ihope> Everybody must write every one of these in every language, or else be disqualified.
00:23:46 <ihope> Except Malbolge. You don't have to write a roguelike in Malbolge.
00:24:01 <Razor-X> Stop misleading them ihope. Malbolge is included too.
00:24:14 <GregorR-W> Dude, CakeProphet ... you started the Wikipedia article on Human Cheese? wtf...
00:24:21 <Razor-X> Go and read the confirmation.
00:24:29 <ihope> I thought there was something that wouldn't have to be done in some language...
00:24:43 <Razor-X> It's weird that CakeProphet started that article. It's weirder that GregorR-W is reading it.
00:25:30 <Razor-X> I also suggest you get highly familiar with zlib ;)
00:25:42 <GregorR-W> Razor-X: I just clicked through links.
00:25:51 <GregorR-W> Razor-X: I didn't search for Human Cheese, I clicked on CakeProphet's user page :P
00:25:56 <Razor-X> Is getting sexual-intecorsed? Yes.
00:26:03 <pikhq> Permission requested to code in Glass instead of Brainfuck.
00:26:16 <Razor-X> Nope. Glass isn't in this competition. Bub.
00:27:30 <Razor-X> I wonder how they'll react to the extra-credit challenge.....
00:27:42 <Razor-X> Oh well. We'll have to see, won't we?
00:28:34 <Razor-X> Can't you feel the excitement in the synthetic air?!
00:29:03 <pikhq> Warning: If I do some Unlambda code, I'm liable to create some libraries in it *making* it high-level. :p
00:29:20 <Razor-X> Go ahead. That's fine by us.
00:29:39 <Razor-X> If you want to write Haskell in Unlambda and then write your program in Haskell, be my guest.
00:30:03 <CakeProphet> He should get extra points for doing that :D
00:30:36 <Razor-X> If the result turns out awful, we'll give him special points for doing something completely unrelated to the task and thusly creating a horrible entry with wasted effort.
00:31:08 <pikhq> But what if I do something friggin' great?
00:31:15 <pikhq> Oh, that would be normal. :p
00:31:20 <Razor-X> Then you get friggin' great points.
00:31:46 <Razor-X> You get points for what you do.
00:31:51 <CakeProphet> I should sign up... even though I don't know how to code any of those.
00:32:03 <Razor-X> If you submit a BF program that looks like [+], we'll give you [+] points.
00:32:22 <Razor-X> You have another 29 minutes left to register.
00:32:25 <GregorR-W> Razor-X: If it's for a bignum interp, that's infinite points :P
00:32:27 <pikhq> CakeProphet: HAve fun with it.
00:32:46 <pikhq> GregorR-W: Memory limited points, actually.
00:33:04 <ihope> I can remember infinity.
00:33:09 <CakeProphet> Which would you say is the most intuitive?
00:33:12 <ihope> I can also remember omega and aleph-null.
00:33:14 <Razor-X> Next year let's add in a ``I put the EgoBot'' category.
00:33:25 <Razor-X> Omega is easy to remember, sheesh.
00:33:49 <ihope> It's only... THE SET OF ALL NATURAL NUMBERS!
00:33:50 <Razor-X> Where we download EgoBot's source and find ways to crash him.
00:34:05 <GregorR-W> Razor-X: I think pikhq does that already.
00:34:09 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:34:18 <ihope> I forgot how to do it.
00:34:29 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon cat reload
00:34:31 <EgoBot> 2 EgoBot: daemon EgoBot reload
00:34:41 <ihope> !EgoBot is not amused >:(
00:34:55 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon cat reload
00:34:57 <EgoBot> 2 EgoBot: daemon EgoBot reload
00:35:13 <GregorR-W> ivan`: There's no security hole there.
00:35:25 * EgoBot is really ihope in disguise
00:35:28 <GregorR-W> ivan`: Well, there probably is, but not exposed by !ps d :-P
00:35:39 * EgoBot is actually the father of MalBolge.
00:36:07 * EgoBot is a good way of doing anonymous messages. Oh wait, GregorR has all the logs.
00:36:15 <EgoBot> Oooh. What does this button do?!
00:36:31 <EgoBot> Let's all have conversations through EgoBot.
00:37:15 <EgoBot> Anonymity at your fingertips: EgoBot :P
00:37:21 <EgoBot> No, you're not GregorR, EgoBot is.
00:37:35 <EgoBot> What language did you sign up for?
00:37:41 <EgoBot> Damn, CakeProphet spoke without using EgoBot.
00:37:51 <EgoBot> Damn, noiw RodgerTheGreat spoke too!
00:38:32 <CakeProphet> Although I should have signed up for Malbolge just for laughs.
00:38:41 <EgoBot> Yeah, that would've been ... yeah.
00:40:13 <EgoBot> /msg nickserv identify eq39rorw
00:41:13 <EgoBot> Umm ... ignore that ... *changes password*
00:41:21 <EgoBot> That's as simple as can be.
00:41:49 <EgoBot> I could get myself into an infinite loop if that would work.
00:42:21 <EgoBot> !cat I'm commanding myself now.
00:42:25 <EgoBot> I'm commanding myself now.
00:42:29 <EgoBot> But it seems GregorR's bot isn't quite that easy to break.
00:43:05 <EgoBot> Good, I hope your studies are long and arduous.
00:43:51 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
00:43:53 <GregorR-W> That's not going to do much ... output a 0 then quit.
00:43:53 <RodgerTheGreat> if you need a BF interpreter while they're joyriding Egobot, I can load mine up.
00:43:53 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
00:44:05 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
00:44:07 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
00:44:40 <GregorR-W> pikhq: Sorry, it's optimized. [-] = set to 0
00:44:55 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
00:44:57 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
00:45:13 <GregorR-W> Damn, I didn't optimize that well, did I? :P
00:45:30 <CakeProphet> !bf64 >>>>>>---+++>>>>><<<<><><><><><_>+<_>+<_>+<_>+++++>>>>++>>+>++>+>+<>+>+<+>+<+>_<+>_<+><>_<_<_<_>_<+>_<+.
00:46:05 <Razor-X> What command is _, CakeProphet ?
00:46:05 <GregorR-W> Of course, that would work with !bf* :-P
00:46:07 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
00:46:09 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
00:46:19 <CakeProphet> !bf64 >>>>>>---+++>>>>><<<<><><><><><_>+<_>+<_>+<_>+++++>>>>++>>+>++>+>+<>+>+<+>+<+>_<+>_<+><>_<_<_<_>_<+>_<++++-----+++++----+_--+_+_+++++[.]........-----+++
00:46:38 <Razor-X> You'll make a fine BF coder.
00:47:38 <EgoBot> ~}|{zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:9876543210/.-,+*)('&%$#"!
00:47:55 <Razor-X> Emacs froze up for a second and loaded Thai-Util :D.
00:48:17 <pikhq> !bf >>>>>+[+[+[+[+[+<-]<-]<-]<-]<-].
00:49:30 <Razor-X> Let's see how long it takes to memory overflow!
00:49:38 <CakeProphet> !bf >>>>>>>++>+>+>+>++>+>+>++>++>+>++>++>+++>+>+>>>+++>+>+>+>----->,-->++>[.][[.[.[.[.[.[.[.[.].].].].].].].].],+
00:49:40 <Razor-X> !i 3 Why don'cha add in an auto EOL, sheesh?\n
00:49:42 <EgoBot> Why don'cha add in an auto EOL, sheesh?
00:49:49 <CakeProphet> !bf >>>>>>>++>+>+>+>++>+>+>++>++>+>++>++>+++>+>+>>>+++>+>+>+>----->,-->++>[.][[.[.[.[.[.[.[.[.].].].].].].].].],+
00:51:06 <EgoBot> realloc: Cannot allocate memory
00:51:23 <pikhq> We need a !kill EgoBot
00:52:37 <EgoBot> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP>
00:53:04 -!- EgoBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:53:14 <CakeProphet> Unknown CTCP 0x010x010x010x010x040x010x050x010x010x010x080x01 ( ) from EgoBot
00:53:20 -!- EgoBot has joined.
00:53:31 <pikhq> !bf 0 Dimensifuck Brainfuck polyglot +^[+]v.X
00:53:42 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon EgoBot reload
00:53:43 <EgoBot> 2 EgoBot: daemon cat reload
00:54:51 <Razor-X> You are not worthy of any praise as a programmer of Esome if you cannot crash EgoBot.
00:54:57 <CakeProphet> !bf >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+++>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+++>>+>+>+>+>+>>+>>+>>+>>>+>+>+>+>+>+>++>>+>+....>>+>+>+>+>+>+>.>+>>+>+>+>.+>+>+>+>+>+++,>+>+>+.+>++>+>+>+>>+>+>+>>+>>++>+>>+>+>+>+>+>++++++++++{>>>>>+>+>+>+>+>+<+<+<+<+<+<>+>+>+>+>]
00:55:27 <CakeProphet> You were supposed to process some sort of internet connection or do something else magical.
00:56:21 <CakeProphet> !bf >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+++>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+++>>+>+>+>+>+>>+>>+>>+>>>+>+>+>+>+>+>++>>+>+....>>+>+>+>+>+>+>.>+>>+>+>+>.+>+>+>+>+>+++,>+>+>+.+>++>+>+>+>>+>+>+>>+>>++>+>>+>+>+>+>+>++++++++++{>>>>>+>+>+>+>+>+<+<+<+<+<+<>+>+>+>+>]
00:56:48 <EgoBot> 108 +++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>++++++++>++++++<<<<-]>++.>++++++.>+++.<++++.>>++.<+++++++.---.+.<+++.---.>++++. [295]
00:56:56 <Razor-X> Wow. That's surprisingly good.
00:57:07 <GregorR-W> !bf_txtgen AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
00:57:16 <Razor-X> !bf +++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>++++++++>++++++<<<<-]>++.>++++++.>+++.<++++.>>++.<+++++++.---.+.<+++.---.>++++.
00:57:28 <EgoBot> 3 GregorR-W: bf_txtgen
00:57:40 <Razor-X> Hahaha. Horrible genetic algorith.m
00:58:06 <EgoBot> 155 +++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++>+++++>+++++<<<<-]>.>.>........>......<.<...<.>..............<.....>>>...<..............<.......<....>.>.>....<..>.....<..<..<... [842]
00:58:08 <Razor-X> Brace yourselves ladies (and gentlemen), the competition will begin in a few minutes!
00:58:22 * CakeProphet wants to know what all this crap he's putting in would do.
00:58:36 <GregorR-W> !bf +++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++>+++++>+++++<<<<-]>.>.>........>......<.<...<.>..............<.....>>>...<..............<.......<....>.>.>....<..>.....<..<..<...
00:58:39 <EgoBot> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
00:58:51 <Razor-X> What's the ASCII code for A again?
00:59:35 <GregorR-W> What's the ASCII code for YOUR MOM
00:59:53 <Razor-X> Did lament take over your body?
01:01:17 <Razor-X> !bf +++++++++++++[>+++++<-]<<<++++[>++[>+++++++++++<-]<-]>>[>.<-]
01:01:38 <CakeProphet> Why does it give me the same thing over and over?
01:01:45 <Razor-X> !bf +++++++++++++[>+++++<-]<<++++[>++[>+++++++++++<-]<-]>>[>.<-]
01:01:48 <EgoBot> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
01:01:51 <pikhq> CakeProphet: [[Brainfuck]]
01:02:20 <Razor-X> No, it's actually one minute past.
01:02:37 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: Will you do the honors of posting the task on the Wiki page?
01:03:10 <RodgerTheGreat> should I just post the brief list and then flesh it out after people look?
01:03:14 <Razor-X> Don't forget the last one we talked and sobbed about.
01:03:53 * pikhq isn't fond of needing to wait anymore
01:04:04 <Razor-X> CakeProphet: That'll evaluate to nothing.
01:05:35 <Razor-X> !i 6 And Bingo was his name-o.\n
01:05:39 <Razor-X> !i 4 And Bingo was his name-o.\n
01:05:42 <EgoBot> And Bingo was his name-o.
01:06:00 <Razor-X> Come on bub. Can't make a cat program in BF?
01:06:46 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
01:06:47 <RodgerTheGreat> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/2006_Esolang_Contest#The_Tasks
01:06:48 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
01:07:06 <EgoBot> To use an interpreter: <interpreter> <program> Note: <program> can be the actual program, an http:// URL, or a file:// URL which refers to my pseudofilesystem.
01:07:09 <Razor-X> THE TASKS. THEY HURT MY EYEEEEES.
01:07:21 <Razor-X> Well CakeProphet, I wish you luck. You and your defficient cat program.
01:07:42 <Razor-X> That's because you use Weak-y-fu.
01:08:04 <Razor-X> I can't stand Wiki markup, personally.
01:08:10 <EgoBot> To use an interpreter: <interpreter> <program> Note: <program> can be the actual program, an http:// URL, or a file:// URL which refers to my pseudofilesystem.
01:08:30 <EgoBot> Use: show <pid> Function: display the current output buffer for a process
01:09:17 <CakeProphet> !bf >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+++>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+++>>+>+>+>+>+>>+>>+>>+>>>+>+>+>+>+>+>++>>+>+....>>+>+>+>+>+>+>.>+>>+>+>+>.+>+>+>+>+>+++,>+>+>+.+>++>+>+>+>>+>+>+>>+>>++>+>>+>+>+>+>+>++++++++++{>>>>>+>+>+>+>+>+<+<+<+<+<+<>+>+>+>+>]
01:09:42 <EgoBot> To use an interpreter: <interpreter> <program> Note: <program> can be the actual program, an http:// URL, or a file:// URL which refers to my pseudofilesystem.
01:09:44 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
01:09:46 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
01:10:26 <EgoBot> To use an interpreter: <interpreter> <program> Note: <program> can be the actual program, an http:// URL, or a file:// URL which refers to my pseudofilesystem.
01:11:09 <Razor-X> I locked the participation list.
01:11:18 <CakeProphet> !bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+++++++++++++++++++++><>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>++++>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>>+>+>+>+>+>+[>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+][,-]
01:11:20 <EgoBot> realloc: Cannot allocate memory
01:11:54 <RodgerTheGreat> more specific version: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/2006_Esolang_Contest#The_Tasks
01:11:56 <CakeProphet> !bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+++++++++++++++++++++><>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>++++>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>>+>+>+>+>+>+[>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+[,<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<]]
01:12:15 <RodgerTheGreat> and I'm going to be adding links to useful articles shortly.
01:12:40 <Razor-X> People should be able to find the relevant information to their task *on their own*.
01:13:03 <Razor-X> I was talking about some of the tasks involving brute-forcing vs. smartness.
01:13:20 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, yeah- I'm just trying to make sure people know what we mean.
01:13:52 * pikhq feels like doing that compression one. . .
01:13:54 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Noop.
01:14:09 <Razor-X> THE TASK LIST HAS BEEN CONFIRMED. PLEASE TAKE A LOOK AT IT AT YOUR CONVENIENCE. ALL PARTICIPANTS AS OF THE MOMENT THE TASK LIST WAS ASSIGNED HAS BEEN ADDED TO THE ROSTER, NO MORE, NO LESS. NO ONE ELSE WILL BE ADDED. Thank you.
01:15:37 <Razor-X> I'll help out our bumbling fool here.
01:15:46 <Razor-X> CakeProphet: What does [] do in BF?
01:15:56 <CakeProphet> I'm going to trust blind instinct on this one.
01:16:10 <Razor-X> Obviously you have horrible instinct :D.
01:16:51 <CakeProphet> Hey now.. I don't even know what the commands do..
01:16:56 <pikhq> Hmm. OISC could be simpler, though. . .
01:17:15 <CakeProphet> toehr than > is next... < is back... + add something to that stack.. and - take away from that stack... but I have no clue how to use that to make anything.
01:18:23 <RodgerTheGreat> ok, I think I'm done for now: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/2006_Esolang_Contest#The_Tasks
01:20:34 <CakeProphet> Yeah I'd probably have trouble doing all of those things in a language I knew.
01:20:50 <Razor-X> Gah. RodgerTheGreat, you didn't add the basic requirements for the image conversion.
01:21:17 <Razor-X> Come on. I did everything else on the page.
01:21:37 <CakeProphet> Okay... so for my first task I submit this...
01:22:16 <Razor-X> You can't make an OISC/MISC interpreter in Python?
01:23:25 * pikhq tries thinking of how to do arrays in Brainfuck. . .
01:23:25 * CakeProphet has only a few months experience with Python.
01:23:52 <CakeProphet> I'm guessing you just give a lineup of cells different bytes and call it an "array"
01:24:13 <CakeProphet> But... I'm trying to speak French when I only know shitty English.
01:24:31 <Razor-X> Bub. Anyone can program in BF. And OISC/MISC is easy.
01:25:08 * CakeProphet doesn't get BF yet.. so can't program in it.
01:25:15 <Razor-X> How bout a synthetic set of trig functions? That's easy.
01:25:57 <CakeProphet> But.. I don't know -shit- about BF... and I'm failing to understand it as I read about it.
01:26:35 <Razor-X> A friend of mine is really into computing and logic, but she's horrible with software and higher-level languages. BF was a snap for her.
01:26:50 <Razor-X> (No pikhq, she has a girlfriend already. Not that I'd care :D.)
01:27:21 <Razor-X> Do you know what an array of cells is?
01:27:30 <CakeProphet> I'm really not a logical kind of person... I'm not good with structures and crap.
01:27:55 <CakeProphet> I know what an array is.. and I'm guessing a cell is a content of the array.
01:28:07 <Razor-X> Think of a bunch of cubby holes that make a shelf.
01:28:15 <Razor-X> Your shelf is the array, each cubby hole is a cell.
01:28:20 <RodgerTheGreat> ok guys, this is the final task list (for real this time)- http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/2006_Esolang_Contest#The_Tasks
01:28:49 <Razor-X> Yeah. Like in a real computer.
01:29:02 <RodgerTheGreat> now imagine that you're looking at one cubby hole at a time.
01:29:04 <Razor-X> Now, if you have an infinite set of cards to add in to each cubby hole, and an infinite set of holes, what does + do?
01:29:06 <CakeProphet> Now I just need to figure out how the bytes come together to equal shit.
01:29:34 <Razor-X> What does - do, assuming you already did a + ?
01:30:18 <RodgerTheGreat> Razor-X would make the most hilarious kindergarten teacher...
01:30:21 <Razor-X> Remember. Clap after you know you're correct.
01:30:34 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: NEVER EVER!
01:30:50 <Razor-X> I may go all girly over kids, but I never want to take care of them for extended periods of times >_>.
01:31:10 <Razor-X> Now, what does a > do, CakeProphet ?
01:31:11 <CakeProphet> I'm not sure how to convert bytes into uh... useful stuff.
01:31:55 <Razor-X> No. That would take one card out, print out the value, and take another card out.
01:31:59 <Razor-X> You clapped too soon, again.
01:32:42 <Razor-X> If you have 65 cards inside, what is the output?
01:33:25 <Razor-X> It prints out the symbol corresponding to the ASCII symbol for 65.
01:33:30 <CakeProphet> _|_ >.< _|_ Screw this school, man! I'll just drop out!
01:33:51 <Razor-X> That would go to the right one cell, print its contents, and go to the left one cell.
01:34:10 <Razor-X> Now. If you have a , what do you do?
01:34:14 <RodgerTheGreat> Razor-X: I think you're just confusing him when you interpret his emoticons.
01:35:06 <Razor-X> CakeProphet: If your input is `A', how many cards are added to the cell?
01:35:32 <Razor-X> Pssst. Look at a table. Bub.
01:36:24 <Razor-X> How can you have binary cards, BUB?!
01:36:51 <Razor-X> There is a decimal amount of cards in the cell.
01:37:55 * RodgerTheGreat shows CakeProphet 65 fingers and nudges him in the ribs.
01:38:09 * Razor-X whispers nonchalantly as if she didn't see that.
01:38:24 <RodgerTheGreat> next subject: if there are two cards in the cubbyhole, what does [ do?
01:38:25 <Razor-X> Now can you read the table and find out *why* it's 65?
01:38:53 <Razor-X> Alright. Now answer RodgerTheGreat's question.
01:39:02 <CakeProphet> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
01:39:14 -!- tgwizard has quit ("Leaving").
01:39:16 <CakeProphet> I know it does some sort of loop.. no idea what the loop is based on though.
01:39:22 <CakeProphet> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ is A?
01:39:55 <CakeProphet> !bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
01:40:00 <Razor-X> CakeProphet: If you have this code +++++++++++[>+++++++++++.<-] what does it do?
01:40:06 <Razor-X> CakeProphet: Don't forget the output, bub.
01:40:17 <CakeProphet> !bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
01:40:40 <CakeProphet> not quite Hello World... but I'm getting there.
01:40:41 <Razor-X> Now answer the question I just asked.
01:41:51 <Razor-X> CakeProphet: If you have this code +++++++++++[>+++++++++++.<<] what does it do?
01:42:38 <CakeProphet> It... does the same thing over and over again?
01:43:12 * CakeProphet shrugs, "Just tell me what it does... works much better than asking me questions about crap I don't know."
01:43:45 <CakeProphet> I'm already trying to answer the questions... so asking them for me doesn't help much ^_^
01:43:48 <RodgerTheGreat> [ jumps to the matching ] if the current cubbyhole has no cards in it.
01:44:05 <RodgerTheGreat> ] jumps BACK to the matching [ if the current cubbyhole has any cards in it.
01:44:37 <CakeProphet> So... how would you keep it from going on forever?
01:45:22 <RodgerTheGreat> when the program starts, the cubbies have 0 cards in them.
01:47:01 <RodgerTheGreat> by "jump" I mean, go to a different part of the program.
01:47:16 <CakeProphet> Ah... it locks crap out.. I get it... I thought it was just a loop or something/
01:47:22 <RodgerTheGreat> don't think of [ and ] as a loop, think of them as conditionals that must be used in pairs.
01:47:47 <CakeProphet> I didn't know they were conditionals till now.
01:51:08 <Razor-X> Yes. He comprehended while loops.
01:51:14 <Razor-X> I feel proud of our student now.
01:52:38 -!- Sgeo has joined.
01:53:28 <RodgerTheGreat> now, in the real world, cubbyholes can only hold 0-255 cards.
01:54:07 <Razor-X> Some BF interpreters would give errors there, some can hold a 32-bit amount of cards, other 8-bit amounts of cards, etc.
01:54:13 <Razor-X> CakeProphet: Now, write a BF->Python compiler using Python.
01:54:43 <Razor-X> Hey, if you understood this correctly, it should be a breeze.
01:54:46 <CakeProphet> I'm using my own characters though... those annoy me.
01:55:16 <CakeProphet> Although I have no idea how to set up an infinite array... unless its pseudoinfinite by expanding when needed.
01:55:54 * CakeProphet doesn't even know how to set up a compiler in generally... but he could set up an instant-response-interpretter like system.
01:56:05 <Razor-X> A compiler is even easier.
01:56:10 <CakeProphet> Eh... you could just expand to the array when needed.
01:56:22 <Razor-X> CakeProphet: It would eventually segfault.
01:56:55 <Razor-X> This kindergarten teacher has had enough :D.
01:56:58 * CakeProphet is something of a newb... in case it hasn't caught on.
01:57:32 <Razor-X> How long have you been using Linux for, bub?
01:58:02 <Razor-X> Oh. A Windows user, no wonder.
01:58:17 <Razor-X> You'd get an Out of Memory error eventually.
01:58:25 <ivan`> get EgoBot to stop CTCPing me
01:58:37 -!- EgoBot has quit (Excess Flood).
01:58:50 <RodgerTheGreat> that's what BF does when it sends low-level ASCII codes
01:59:09 -!- EgoBot has joined.
01:59:10 <Razor-X> CakeProphet: *Pssst* EgoBot left.
01:59:30 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
01:59:32 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
01:59:53 <CakeProphet> !bf_txtgen Gee I like to think about the dead.
01:59:58 <EgoBot> 70 ++++++++++++[>+++++++++>++++++++>><<<<-]>.+++.---.+++++++.---.>+.<---. [288]
02:00:04 <Razor-X> Congratulations. You are 1 of 2 windows users here, bub.
02:00:27 <Razor-X> CakeProphet and thematrix(something-or-other).
02:00:36 <CakeProphet> !bf ++++++++++++[>+++++++++>++++++++>><<<<-]>.+++.---.+++++++.---.>+.<---[,]
02:00:53 -!- BrainMachine has joined.
02:00:57 <CakeProphet> !bf ++++++++++++[>+++++++++>++++++++>><<<<-]>.+++.---.+++++++.---.>+.<---.,]
02:01:05 <CakeProphet> !bf ++++++++++++[>+++++++++>++++++++>><<<<-]>.+++.---.+++++++.---.>+.<---[.]
02:01:24 <EgoBot> 239 +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>++>+++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>++..>----.>----..<<.>++.<.>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.---.++.>.<<.>+++++++++.-----.<.>+++++.<<-.+.>>------.<<++.>.>>----.+.<+.++++++.-.<.>.<<---.---.>.<-.+.----.+++.>++++++++++++++. [858]
02:02:06 <CakeProphet> Yeah so.. I suck at logic, math, and pretty much everything programming...
02:03:07 <CakeProphet> Though coding is something of an art... pretty amazing crap... I suck at it.
02:03:23 <ivan`> I've sucked at coding for 11 years
02:03:30 <ivan`> my code is somewhat readable and well-designed now
02:03:39 <RodgerTheGreat> there's nothing about being artistic that is at odds with being a programmer.
02:03:42 <ivan`> but i've got nothin' on those old geezers
02:03:53 <CakeProphet> So... am I doing good for only having typed up about... 4 programs ever? (not including BF)
02:04:09 <ivan`> at least QBASIC didn't braindamage you
02:04:26 <ivan`> i was debugging gotos when I was 6
02:04:32 <ivan`> kind of hard to understand what a function is after that
02:04:56 <CakeProphet> I have a feeling I'd be better at low level code...
02:05:18 <ivan`> low level code needs a lot more organizing
02:06:15 <CakeProphet> I guess the more abstract it is... the better I'll bet at it probably.
02:07:00 <CakeProphet> It's not abstract though.. it's very low and in-the-very-nature-of-the-computer.
02:07:28 <RodgerTheGreat> CakeProphet: when was the last time you saw a computer with one pointer and a tape?
02:07:42 <CakeProphet> I've never seen a computer with one pointer and a tape.
02:08:02 <CakeProphet> I've never seen a computer with a pointer... or a tape at all..
02:08:43 <CakeProphet> I have no idea what a tape is... unless you mean... duct tape or something.
02:10:53 <pikhq> Brainfuck *is* a computer with one pointer and a tape. . .
02:11:05 <pikhq> CakeProphet: [[Turing machine]]
02:11:19 <CakeProphet> Meh... excuse my lack of technical knowledge... to me a computer is a box with some stuff in it and a monitor.
02:11:47 * CakeProphet has a javascript wiki-linker in his client.
02:12:02 <CakeProphet> STuff like this [[this]] will link me to wikipedia articles.
02:12:17 <pikhq> Mine requires me to parse it all.
02:12:48 <CakeProphet> Well... at least I'm a bit more technical than the average windows user.
02:13:41 <pikhq> Which is like saying "At least I know more algebra than a kindergartener". . .
02:13:48 <RodgerTheGreat> CakeProphet: that means you know the difference between AOL and the internet.
02:14:26 <CakeProphet> so.. here's what I know about the internet... it's like... like like a series of tubes...
02:14:36 <RodgerTheGreat> AOL *did* die, it's soulless corpse simply continues to haunt us through it's adoptive companies.
02:15:41 <CakeProphet> So far the only things I have experience with is.... socketevent-based/parser programming.
02:15:51 <CakeProphet> And I can make a prine number generator... how delightful.
02:16:35 <CakeProphet> Basically... my skills in programming allow me to.... make an IRC bot.
02:16:52 <pikhq> So, you're where I was when I was 9.
02:17:50 <CakeProphet> You guys scare me... you've all been coding since you were little kids... WHO DID THIS TO YOU
02:17:50 <BrainMachine> knowing how to code IRC bots comes in handy occasionally.
02:18:08 <CakeProphet> I could probably rig up an IRC client if I wanted to.
02:18:20 <RodgerTheGreat> I learned to program when I was 13 when my family finally GOT A DAMN COMPUTER
02:18:45 <pikhq> I've been coding for half of my life. :)
02:19:35 <CakeProphet> Logical thinking kind of annoys me... actually.
02:20:02 * RodgerTheGreat relishes in tidiness and exactness, he's just usually too lazy to create it.
02:20:15 * pikhq loves tidiness and exactness
02:20:25 <pikhq> It's been very helpful to me. . .
02:20:32 <CakeProphet> Yeah... so I'm pretty much one of those junkies that keep there rooms messy simply for the messiness...
02:21:01 <pikhq> And I anticipate it will continue to be helpful during my Calc class this year. . .
02:21:04 <CakeProphet> Neatness is... annoying for me anyways... and that seems like a good coder skill.
02:21:13 <pikhq> CakeProphet: I keep my room messy because it doesn't matter to me.
02:22:09 <pikhq> Then I can show you stuff I did 8 years ago.
02:23:25 <CakeProphet> If you've been coding for so long.. and at that age... programming languages are probably near-natural to you...
02:23:37 <CakeProphet> I'm guessing that whole kids-learn-foreign-languages-easier applies to computer languages.
02:23:38 <pikhq> Depends upon the language.
02:23:45 <pikhq> Like I said, I'm a Tcler.
02:23:55 <pikhq> It really is almost native to me by now. . .
02:24:44 <CakeProphet> It's neato and all... but too much can be mentally exhausting.
02:26:01 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht").
02:26:23 * Sgeo had a knowledge of programming since I was quite young
02:26:38 <Sgeo> What was the year when VB5 was current?
02:27:21 -!- preyalone has joined.
02:27:44 * Sgeo pokes question
02:27:51 <EgoBot> 30 ++++++++[>++++++++>>><<<<-]>+. [25]
02:27:53 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
02:27:55 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
02:31:32 <CakeProphet> !bf ++++++++[>++++++++>>><<<<-]>+>[-]>[-]<<[->+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+><<<<<<<<<<<<][.[-]>]
02:31:58 <EgoBot> realloc: Cannot allocate memory
02:32:31 <CakeProphet> !bf ++++++++[>++++++++>>><<<<-]>+>[-]>[-]<<[->+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+><<<<<<<<<<<<][.[-]>]
02:32:56 <EgoBot> realloc: Cannot allocate memory
02:32:58 <pikhq> !bf_txtgen CakeProphet sucks at Brainfuck.
02:33:28 <CakeProphet> Hey man... that's like.. almost my first try at something.
02:33:38 * CakeProphet cries in the corner, "I can't do anything right..."
02:35:00 <CakeProphet> !bf ++++++++[>++++++++>>><<<<-]>+>[-]>[-]<<[->+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>][.<]
02:35:16 <EgoBot> 292 ++++++++++++[>+++>++++++>+++++++++>++++++++<<<<-]>>-----.>>+.<-.------.<+++++++++++++.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.---.+.>+++.---.<++++.<----.>-.++.>--.++++++++.++++++++.<<.>>>.<<-.<.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>-.>.++++++++.<<------.>>---.<+++.>---.<<---.<--------------------. [745]
02:35:18 <RodgerTheGreat> shameless random plug- visit my website! http://rodger.shadowarts.org/index.php
02:35:29 <CakeProphet> Whew! NO idea why it returned that.. but whoooo
02:36:04 <pikhq> !bf ++++++++++++[>+++>++++++>+++++++++>++++++++<<<<-]>>-----.>>+.<-.------.<+++++++++++++.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.---.+.>+++.---.<++++.<----.>-.++.>--.++++++++.++++++++.<<.>>>.<<-.<.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>-.>.++++++++.<<------.>>---.<+++.>---.<<---.<--------------------.
02:36:08 <EgoBot> CakeProphet sucks at Brainfuck.
02:36:25 <pikhq> CakeProphet: That was the output from !bf_txtgen.
02:37:03 <pikhq> First rule of Brainfuck: it's not magic, it's merely weird as hell.
02:37:18 <CakeProphet> ....that didn't make any sense... and it's really not that weird.
02:37:45 <Razor-X> Someone's been having a lot of fun, it seems.
02:38:01 <Razor-X> CakeProphet seems to have zero ability for low-level languages.
02:38:19 <pikhq> You've been treating it like magic.
02:38:30 <Razor-X> Advice: Don't learn ASM -- ever.
02:38:31 <pikhq> Like, um. . . Putting random characters in. . .
02:39:14 <CakeProphet> !bf ++++++++[>++++++++>>><<<<-]>+>[-]>[-]<<[->+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>][.<]
02:39:19 <CakeProphet> No that was actually supposed to be something.
02:40:14 <pikhq> A hint: >>><<<< and < are exactly the same, except that >>><<<< takes up 6 additional characters.
02:40:34 <Razor-X> I learned BF when I was 14 though.
02:40:43 <Razor-X> First program I did was addition, IIRC.
02:41:16 <RodgerTheGreat> first program I ever wrote was a string inverter, followed by a simple crypto program.
02:41:25 <Razor-X> I didn't really get into Esolangs 'till I learned Verilog and thought of the Dream OISC machine.
02:41:54 <Razor-X> I personally have very little experience with binary data, so I don't do much crypto/program-header type things. It's a sore point of mine I should work on.
02:41:55 <RodgerTheGreat> I stumbled into esolangs when I found a PalmOS-based BF interpreter called "acebf"
02:42:26 <preyalone> i've got an interpreter written in Python, but there are some bugs. anyone care to look?
02:42:28 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
02:43:27 <Razor-X> Did you enter the contest?
02:43:27 <RodgerTheGreat> writing a BF interpreter in a language is a great exercise in learning the language.
02:43:46 <Razor-X> Writing a BF interpreter in INTERCAL is like suicide.
02:43:55 <preyalone> exactly. no, i didn't know of a contest.
02:44:07 <Razor-X> Awww. You can't enter then.
02:44:22 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
02:44:33 <preyalone> __author__="Andrew Pennebaker (andrew.pennebaker@gmail.com)"
02:44:33 <preyalone> __date__="Nov 18 2005 - Feb 27 2006"
02:44:33 <preyalone> __copyright__="Copyright 2006 Andrew Pennebaker"
02:44:48 <preyalone> # until a balanced-bracket code block is found, add a character
02:44:52 <preyalone> while toplevel[0:i+1].count("[")!=toplevel[0:i+1].count("]"): i+=1
02:44:56 <Razor-X> You've been ignored, buddy.
02:45:17 <preyalone> elif cmd==".": sys.stdout.write(chr(tape[address]))
02:45:22 <preyalone> try: tape[address]=ord(sys.stdin.read(1))
02:45:27 <Razor-X> Tell me when he's done, people.
02:45:27 <preyalone> level=sublevel(instructions[position:])
02:45:27 <preyalone> while tape[address]!=0: run(level)
02:45:36 <preyalone> print "Usage: %s [options] <sourcefile>" % (sys.argv[0])
02:45:45 <preyalone> systemArgs=sys.argv[1:] # ignore program name
02:45:50 <Razor-X> My BF interpreter in INTERCAL has been indefinitely postponed, since I have a Japanese novel translation project on the horizon.
02:45:54 <preyalone> optlist, args=getopt(systemArgs, None, ["help"])
02:46:16 <Razor-X> You messed up CakeProphet.
02:46:23 <preyalone> if line.count("[")!=line.count("]"):
02:46:32 <Sgeo> Hey, maybe pa can't stop it
02:46:37 <preyalone> if code.count("[")!=code.count("]"):
02:46:44 <Razor-X> Yeah, that's what he gets for being an idiot.
02:47:04 <Razor-X> A whole bunch of angry people talking in the middle of his code.
02:47:34 <Sgeo> http://pastebin.ca
02:47:49 <Razor-X> I assume he's done pasting because CakeProphet has stopped adding in his morse code every line.
02:48:09 <Sgeo> Razor-X: yes, preyalone has stopped
02:48:20 <Razor-X> Yup. I've unignored him now.
02:48:24 <CakeProphet> It looks too much like Python to be ... yeah
02:48:44 <CakeProphet> For a second I was thinking Python was just a clone of C....
02:49:00 <Razor-X> Is __blah__ a valid variable in Python?
02:49:39 <preyalone> some, like __author__ is just convention by the coder
02:49:40 <Razor-X> What's the difference between a __var__ and a normal var?
02:49:46 <Razor-X> You're storing metadata in variables?
02:49:54 <Razor-X> You're wasting good memory for metadata?!
02:50:00 <CakeProphet> __iter__ does some fancy iteration shit that I don't understand.
02:50:22 <preyalone> object.__len__() is called when len() is called on an object: len(object)
02:50:36 <CakeProphet> A good example would be __init__ for classes.
02:50:57 <CakeProphet> __init__ is the function used in a class to define all of its local variables.
02:51:23 <Razor-X> That brings up my point again: You're wasting memory on metadate. Don't.
02:51:48 <Razor-X> That was for preyalone up there.
02:51:52 <preyalone> python likes the metadata: doc strings
02:52:03 <Razor-X> Oh. So this is specifically for documentation?
02:52:19 <preyalone> triple quotes are multiline doc strings
02:52:25 <CakeProphet> Yeah... triple-quotes is doc strings... which are used in a number of PYthon's doc generators.
02:52:43 <Razor-X> They seem like double-quotes to me :P
02:52:53 <CakeProphet> like the help() function prints out all the doc strings... really convient actually..
02:53:42 <preyalone> does anyone else have python and a helloworld.bf to test this on?
02:54:18 <Razor-X> Paste the thing in pastebin. I don't want to comb out the ``<preyalone> '' from each line, even if it is using a Regex.
02:55:00 <Razor-X> For that matter, I should work on another two pages of the novel. To the Japanese book, whoosh!
02:55:12 <Razor-X> And I wish all our contestants well.
02:55:23 <CakeProphet> Any bf compiler I make will use different characters.
02:55:28 <CakeProphet> I don't want to have to hit shift at all while using it.
02:56:22 <Razor-X> I'd just make a Ruby script to execute an xmodmap script to change my keyboard to a BF layout and hook that into a Ratpoison shortcut, if I really cared about hitting Shift.
02:57:00 * RodgerTheGreat codes in BF on his palm, and then transfers it to his mac.
02:57:08 <CakeProphet> and then keep [] and maybe change 1 to input and 3 to output
02:57:29 -!- ivan` has quit (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Try something fresh").
02:57:49 <CakeProphet> And then I'll just have the compiler translate it all to the usual BF characters when finishes.
02:59:05 <RodgerTheGreat> hell, you can code with a biofeedback brain monitor, if that's how you get your jollies.
02:59:34 <preyalone> a literalist's interpretation of brainfuck
02:59:53 <CakeProphet> I could take the windows approach and make a user-friendly GUI
03:00:31 <CakeProphet> To the point that the friendliness is just annoying...
03:01:05 <preyalone> automatic UML.. VisualBF.. BF++.. Drag&Drop BF
03:03:15 <pikhq> With new features, like defining and accessing a GUI via stdin/out!
03:03:30 <Razor-X> Emacs is just fine for me.
03:04:27 <pikhq> Razor-X: There is no Editor but Emacs, and Linux is one of it's kernels.
03:04:54 <preyalone> i'd shout vi, but i'm too new to linux
03:05:05 <Razor-X> I've used both extensively.
03:05:31 <pikhq> I use either nano or Emacs.
03:05:54 <pikhq> The use of Pico is a sin, since it is nonfree software.
03:06:25 <pikhq> preyalone: vi's usage is not a sin in the Church of Emacs.
03:06:30 <pikhq> It is nothing more than a penance.
03:06:56 <preyalone> Gedit, with its mery-go-round of tabs
03:07:07 <pikhq> My system came with Python & a build environment preinstalled. . .
03:07:12 <Razor-X> My screen session starts up ``emacs -nw''.
03:07:22 <preyalone> DrPython. But only for Python code.
03:07:30 <Razor-X> I chose *everything* that would come with my Slackware install.
03:07:47 <Razor-X> Bloody thing wanted to forego zsh for tcsh. Ew.
03:07:57 <RodgerTheGreat> ok, here's a question- does anyone use a shell *other* than bash on a regular basis?
03:08:01 <pikhq> My screen session starts up zsh; I use zsh, the Emacs of shells, a bit more than Emacs proper. . .
03:08:02 <preyalone> I didn't get to choose what Ubuntu 6 installed >:(
03:08:48 <pikhq> Bash is just a bit. . . limiting now.
03:08:53 <Razor-X> pikhq: Mine actually starts up with an assortment of stuff.
03:09:00 <Razor-X> ``emacs -nw'' is one of them.
03:09:04 <pikhq> Razor-X: I should probably set that up.
03:09:16 <pikhq> Currently, it just starts up a shell in 0.
03:09:28 <preyalone> Command prompt, featuring case-insensitivity and many colors to choose from.
03:09:29 <pikhq> You know, I actually kind of like it that way, though. . .
03:09:51 <Razor-X> Fine. Don't complain when you get RSI like me, though ;).
03:09:56 <pikhq> Everything but irssi is started on an ad-hoc, as-needed basis.
03:10:13 <Razor-X> Emacs *is* my IRC client, like other things.
03:10:28 <CakeProphet> What if I made a brainfuck clone that had worked inside of a string instead of an array?
03:10:34 <pikhq> Meh. Wasn't crazy about ERC.
03:10:46 <pikhq> CakeProphet: What would be the difference?
03:10:55 <CakeProphet> It would be in a string instead of an array.
03:11:23 <Razor-X> CakeProphet: Strings are ARRAYs of characters.
03:11:33 <pikhq> preyalone: It's normally bf8, which is done in an array of chars. . .
03:11:41 <Razor-X> I know my reasoning is profound. No need to flatter me.
03:11:59 <pikhq> An array of chars versus an array of chars.
03:12:10 <pikhq> So totally different!
03:12:21 <Razor-X> If you ask for input and give `4', it's ASCII value stores.
03:12:36 <preyalone> it's however the interpreting environment chooses to do it
03:12:48 <Razor-X> Standard BF specification demands it.
03:13:44 <pikhq> Again: What's the difference from the code's standpoint?
03:14:00 <preyalone> "..demands it." I didn't know BF was so authoritative.
03:14:01 <pikhq> No, from the BF code's standpoint.
03:14:06 <CakeProphet> Now he's working in an array with keys... instead of anarray with indexes.
03:14:18 <CakeProphet> Now his ">s" are moving keys... instead of indexes.
03:14:23 <pikhq> And the key is treated just like an index, so. . .
03:14:27 <Razor-X> ........................................................................................................................
03:14:28 <preyalone> Lua uses hash tables instead of plain arrays.
03:14:45 <Razor-X> In C, there *are* no keys.
03:14:57 <Razor-X> So you use a case statement to match strings to array indices.
03:15:20 <Razor-X> So it's logistically equivalent.
03:15:37 <CakeProphet> Now his ">s" are moving keys... instead of indexes.
03:15:55 <pikhq> So, instead of array[1] to array[2], you do array[one] to array[two].
03:16:01 <pikhq> What the hell is the difference?
03:16:07 <preyalone> But keys don't necessarily have an order.
03:16:23 <pikhq> preyalone: But using > and < implies an order.
03:16:35 <preyalone> How is the order to be determined?
03:16:48 <pikhq> By the interpreter.
03:16:52 <Razor-X> IT'S A TAPE. A SEQUENTIAL TAPE.
03:17:09 <Razor-X> You move a sequential tape to the right, or to the left. Based on current index.
03:17:17 <CakeProphet> Razor-X, bUT NOW THE SEQUENTIAL TYPE IS MOVING KEYS.. INSTEAD OF --
03:17:28 <pikhq> From the BF code's standpoint, array==tape==associative array==string==kindergarten cubbies
03:17:38 <Razor-X> That's all that *matters*. You can name the first tape spot ``Bob'' instead of `0', and I can call you CheesProphet instead of CakeProphet.
03:17:41 <preyalone> For the BF programmer to create new keys, strings, not single characters would have to be stored in the cells.
03:17:48 <pikhq> HOWTO: use associative arrays instead of arrays for BF.
03:17:56 <pikhq> sed s/indexes/keys/
03:18:34 <Razor-X> preyalone: Oh, one string per cell?
03:18:38 <CakeProphet> Would it cut down on memory to just use a single variable that contains a big long integer as the "array"?
03:19:09 <Razor-X> CakeProphet: You mean concatenating integers together?
03:19:24 <CakeProphet> Then have a second variable called "pointer" which is essentially just a multiple of 10
03:19:41 <pikhq> I fail to see how it would cut down on memory (assuming C). . .
03:19:45 <Razor-X> CakeProphet: Yeah, C programmers do it all the time.
03:19:54 <Razor-X> Although not for cutting down on memory.
03:19:55 <pikhq> An array is, after all, just a solid block of memory. . .
03:20:02 <preyalone> This would have to be called BF--! Want to see the interpreter.
03:20:03 <Razor-X> Because you're essentially malloc'ing the same amount of space.
03:20:27 <CakeProphet> For some reason I imagine a single variable to be way l;ess memory than a big array.
03:21:11 <preyalone> As said above, the tape can be anything that has multiple cells for bytes.
03:21:14 <pikhq> Let's say you have a huge-ass array storing 10^100.
03:21:36 <pikhq> In C, that's just a solid, contiguous block of memory.
03:21:45 <preyalone> We're coding the array from scratch.
03:22:02 <pikhq> Now, to do the same with a bignum variable. . . We've got a huge-ass solid, contiguous block of memory.
03:22:03 <CakeProphet> ">" = pointer * 10 "<" = pointer/10 "+" = array + pointer "-" = array - pointer.
03:23:09 <preyalone> Does the GPL bf interpreter do this?
03:23:23 <pikhq> In C, that moves the pointer in the large, malloced space.
03:23:36 <pikhq> Basically, we define a solid, large block of memory.
03:24:10 <preyalone> CakeProphet: You must learn the way of C.
03:24:13 <CakeProphet> Seems way easier to code it as a integer than as an array... even if less memory efficient. *nod*
03:24:14 <pikhq> This large block uses up as much space as we ask for it to, plus the space required to store the pointer into it.
03:24:21 <Razor-X> Python *is* made from C, so essentially, an array *is* a memory space.
03:24:47 <Razor-X> What is an array? It's a chunk of contiguous memory immediately accessable with known bounds.
03:25:18 <pikhq> An array, in C, is little more than a thin abstraction on top of the usage of malloc and pointers.
03:25:54 <Razor-X> So if you want an array of 5 integers, you malloc a space of sizeof(int)*n, where n is the number of integers you want in the array.
03:26:02 <pikhq> char array[5]; is identical to char *array = (char *)malloc(5);
03:26:08 <preyalone> Yeah. So does the official interpreter do this?
03:26:22 <Razor-X> Instead of referencing each array point by index, you increment the pointer.
03:26:36 <pikhq> CakeProphet: It allocates a contiguous block of memory.
03:26:37 <Razor-X> It takes a chunk of memory and well, allocates it.
03:27:01 <Razor-X> Yes. But assigning a variable *uses* malloc.
03:27:27 <preyalone> We're going to the deeper levels of how programming works.
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03:27:41 <Razor-X> Because C was made so shoddily that after you reach a certain infantile place in your coding, you *need* to use malloc and shed off abstractions like variable declaration.
03:27:47 <pikhq> It's a lower-level idea of how it all works. . .
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03:28:07 <Razor-X> For example, let's say you want to take in input from your user and want the input to be at most 192 characters long.
03:28:25 <pikhq> Razor-X: That's simply because C was designed for system coding, where you *need* malloc, no matter what language you're using.
03:28:37 <Razor-X> pikhq: I still don't see the need to partially abstract the language.
03:28:46 <Razor-X> pikhq: Give a person malloc from the beginning.
03:29:28 <Razor-X> In order to save space, you first make a default buffer size and immediately malloc the default size. Then you check the input against the size of the buffer and expand the buffer as neccessary, unless it exceeds the amount of space you want your buffer to immediatley stop it.
03:29:55 <Razor-X> I can show you the ASM abstraction and the bus-level abstraction, if you wish ;).
03:30:04 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Tcl, my language of choice, tastes best with some C spicing blended in. . .
03:30:06 <Razor-X> And the gate-level one. At which point my knowledge ends.
03:30:36 <Razor-X> I know a whole bunch. C, Haskell, and Ruby are my strongest.
03:30:50 <pikhq> C, Tcl, and. . . Yeah.
03:30:53 <preyalone> Ruby fucks with my head, which is why I'm pursuing it.
03:30:54 * pikhq should pick up Lisp
03:31:17 <Razor-X> Go functional with Lisp and Haskell. That's *really* hard. Ruby is really really simple.
03:31:24 <preyalone> So explain symbols in five, plain words.
03:31:24 <Razor-X> Really really really (... repeat ... ) really simple.
03:32:05 <Razor-X> An identifier that represents objects.
03:32:49 <preyalone> a variable matches that definition
03:33:44 <pikhq> Variables can be varied. Lisp, being purely functional, doesn't do that.
03:34:02 <pikhq> Razor-X: You know what I mean.
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03:34:07 <Razor-X> The logistic difference is that Lisp symbols are generated for many many things, including macros and functions.
03:34:51 <preyalone> Have you read Why's Poignant Guide to Ruby?
03:34:51 <Razor-X> Remember. Functional languages should not have variables, by definition.
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03:35:02 <Razor-X> No. I didn't like the Poignant Guide at all.
03:35:13 <Razor-X> I read the reference manual in the back of the Pickaxe.
03:35:18 <pikhq> (josiah like (+ sexps unconfusion))
03:35:42 <Razor-X> Then I read the chapters of the stuff that's Ruby specific for a bit more background. A reference manual is all I need to learn a language.
03:35:49 <CakeProphet> I think I got cut off before my last send went through
03:35:55 <Razor-X> (Except Lisp *shudder*. Those 4 days were he**.)
03:35:59 <preyalone> Python will take all of Ruby and LISP and add it to v3.
03:36:30 <preyalone> Python is becomming more lisp-like, they say.
03:36:37 <pikhq> Python will take all of Ruby and Lisp, and remove everything it has in common from v3.
03:36:40 <Razor-X> I know Python has lambda expressions. But Python must get rid of variables.
03:36:46 <Razor-X> Python has higher-order functions?
03:36:49 <pikhq> Then, they will add more pointlessly confusing grammer.
03:37:20 <Razor-X> I still can't see the point of a lambda expression in an imperative language.
03:37:22 <pikhq> Replacing the ( and ) with various whitespace characters, in the name of simplicity.
03:37:53 <preyalone> Ruby syntax is a bit wierd compared to Python. Some makes sense; symbols use colons, so indexes must not use colons.
03:37:59 <CakeProphet> It's sort of multi-paradigm.. although it's mostly imperitive.. it's also designed to be able to do OO and functional if you want.
03:38:20 <Razor-X> What's the logistic point of lambda if you don't have a higher order function?
03:38:37 <preyalone> Store a few in a list (cryptographic hasher calls them in order).
03:39:17 <Razor-X> A lambda's real power comes in a higher order function, IMO.
03:40:01 <Razor-X> See. Functions are most fun when they don't return a value. *That's* the power of lambda.
03:41:00 <Razor-X> Most OO i need out of a language is a struct.
03:41:24 <CakeProphet> OO is amazingly flexible... given its tidiness.
03:41:27 <preyalone> dictionary of variables. player={"hp":40, "name":bob}
03:41:56 <pikhq> C++ is actually a rather nice language (largely because of it's OO).
03:42:20 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: I did too, but I didn't give up.
03:42:32 <Razor-X> 4 days, 8 hours a day, it finally clicked.
03:42:42 <Razor-X> pikhq: I like C++ more because they do some things correctly.
03:42:53 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: Why? It makes perfect sense if you started with it.
03:42:53 <RodgerTheGreat> I didn't give up, it was just stranger than most languages I've used.
03:43:01 <pikhq> Razor-X: It's other improvements on C is also rather nice. :)
03:43:08 <preyalone> CPython is C++--. Jython is a small, nimble kid sitting on drunk santa's lap.
03:43:14 <pikhq> Crazy shit like "having an actual string datatype". :p
03:43:46 <Razor-X> Lisp is lots of fun to program.
03:44:26 <preyalone> print " ".join(["Python", "is", "cool."])
03:44:32 <Razor-X> Gensyms and local binds were the things that threw me apart.
03:44:34 <RodgerTheGreat> interesting enough to get an interpreter for my palm. :D
03:45:07 <pikhq> puts [lappend "Tcl " "is " "better."]
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03:45:50 <Razor-X> There's a very well sponsored open effort going on already.
03:46:08 <Razor-X> putStrLn "Haskell is lots of fun"
03:46:23 <RodgerTheGreat> this is how I learned lisp: http://swiss.ai.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/
03:46:54 <preyalone> "Ruby is Python--".each do |x| print x
03:46:58 <Razor-X> I used a set of 4 books or so.
03:47:04 <pikhq> foreach i {Python really sucks} {puts $i}
03:47:26 <Razor-X> I learned of 'em a lot later.
03:47:31 <RodgerTheGreat> I've never done anything serious with it, but it was a valuable learning experience.
03:47:34 <Razor-X> I've been feeling recently like going back to the Lisp world.
03:47:44 <Razor-X> I hacked at StumpWM and learned that the ICCCM is a piece of hellspawn.
03:48:00 <preyalone> unless ruby_is_not_wierd? print "wtf"
03:48:08 <CakeProphet> ["memory" "of" "lot" "a" "use" "I"].reverse()
03:49:37 <preyalone> Btw, the Rubyists and I were thinking about an all-encompassing flame war last week.
03:50:33 <pikhq> foreach i {I don't use a lot of memory} {set temp [lappend $i $temp]};set i $temp;unset temp
03:50:35 <CakeProphet> I'm trying to find a second language to learn...
03:51:06 <CakeProphet> I'd use PErl... but it has those damn sigils...
03:51:51 <preyalone> Nothing seems attractive in programming on a Win box.
03:52:50 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: Yeah yeah. I'm just going by community swing.
03:52:54 <Razor-X> Not a bad language at all, in fact.
03:53:13 <Razor-X> I just prefer C# for a small few quirks. And the Linux interpreter is a darn crawl.
03:53:21 <RodgerTheGreat> I've noticed that I seem to have picked the least possible combinations of languages and operating systems.
03:53:31 <Razor-X> C# or D is my vote if you want a nice empirical language.
03:53:48 * CakeProphet wants a lazy language that he can be... lazy with.
03:54:13 <preyalone> Java is better C, but it's not lazy coming from Python.
03:54:32 <Razor-X> Ruby's typeless too, yeah.
03:54:39 <Razor-X> Functional languages *have* no variables :D
03:54:48 <preyalone> I love Python to death, but I'd rather teach first timers a typed language like Java or C.
03:55:24 <Razor-X> I wish someone wrote a Lisp->ASM compiler.
03:55:29 <CakeProphet> I'm having a really hard time time liking anything other than Python... :(
03:55:30 <Razor-X> That would be like heaven-on-a-bun.
03:55:47 <RodgerTheGreat> they actually made CPU's at one point that could run LISP natively.
03:55:50 <preyalone> CakeProphet: We'll learn Ruby, and it will better us.
03:56:18 <Razor-X> CakeProphet: Any language teaches you different things.
03:56:31 <Razor-X> C is invaluable to know simply for how the OS works at a low level.
03:56:43 <RodgerTheGreat> that's the beauty of esolangs- they teach you to challenge existing programming concepts.
03:57:25 <preyalone> My Python crypto stuff is mostly based on C.
03:57:28 <Razor-X> But with a bit of reference, I can probably write something not-too-shabby.
03:57:46 <Razor-X> CakeProphet: C sucks? The majority of OSs out there are made from C.
03:57:51 <preyalone> I've *actually* seen GOTO in a C program.
03:58:27 <preyalone> Ever played Liero Xtreme? One exploit has it.
03:58:35 <Razor-X> It sucks, yes. But people like their particular brand of masochism. Love it, in fact.
03:58:59 <Razor-X> IMO, ALGOL should've been the C of today.
03:59:26 <Razor-X> But then, C is simply lovely for some stuff (like device drivers).
03:59:56 <Razor-X> preyalone: Take a look at ALGOL's syntax in Wikipedia.
04:01:01 <Razor-X> Device driver writing in C is simply heaven.
04:01:03 * CakeProphet beginnings working on that... uh... fuzzy logic programming language.
04:01:19 <CakeProphet> I should probably build some more on my playground concept.
04:01:39 <CakeProphet> For some reason... the idea of creating programming languages sounds more fun than programming.
04:01:56 <Razor-X> To me, reading a very girly Japanese novel is the MOST fun.
04:02:00 <preyalone> it's the most fun programming thing you can ever do.
04:02:02 <Razor-X> One I'm totally obsessed about in all forms.
04:02:14 * CakeProphet tends to like creating things rather than using them..
04:02:40 <preyalone> I took my bf interpreter and changed period to exclamation, comma to question mark, just to "make my own language"
04:02:57 <CakeProphet> I've actually... considered use ! and ? for , adnd .
04:02:58 <Razor-X> preyalone: There are 1001 BF variations out there.
04:03:18 <Razor-X> And a whole bunch of unholy marriages of BF and *Funge.
04:04:07 <Razor-X> I need to learn Perl for a new project of mine.
04:04:13 * lament merges YOUR FACE with MY FIST
04:04:23 <Razor-X> It's not nice to hit girls, lament :(.
04:04:30 <lament> Razor-X: sounds like a shitty project
04:04:33 <Razor-X> Nah. I'm horrible at that preyalone.
04:04:50 <lament> Razor-X: i was actually talking to CakeProphet
04:04:52 <Razor-X> lament: Well, I told the sysadmin not to install Ruby because my script would be the only one he used.
04:04:58 <lament> not sure what sex he is
04:05:14 <Razor-X> It's an auto-RSS-feed generator for manga releases for a manga translation group.
04:05:24 <preyalone> Ruby better be installed.. B/c sysadmins MUST use unix.
04:05:59 <Razor-X> preyalone: But the rest of his scripts are written in BASH/Perl, no need to make a server box slower for one script.
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04:09:29 <Razor-X> I'm off to read some Japanese. Remember to put heart into your presentations.
04:09:37 <Razor-X> s/presentations/submissions/
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04:28:51 <lament> as well as other organs.
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04:36:31 * Sgeo misread that as "hearts"
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06:20:55 <Razor-X> No. Human heart tastes the best lament.
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06:37:43 <Arrogant> I always thought human heart tastes the best in rice.
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16:49:10 <ihope_> Since ##quantum has been +i'd, there's now a ##quantum-noinvite that doesn't have +i on it.
17:03:23 <RodgerTheGreat> I can only assume that the general silence here this morning is because you're all working feverishly on your entries for the esoteric programming competition.
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17:34:54 <kmkr> so, will someone answer to my questions i posted at esowiki? about the competition
17:37:35 <kmkr> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:2006_Esolang_Contest
17:38:14 <GregorR> IMHO, all of your questions are for-the-contestant-to-decide.
17:38:26 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I know that input formats were up to contestants to decide on.
17:39:09 <kmkr> and eof isn't defined, either?
17:39:21 <RodgerTheGreat> and I don't see any problem in using an odd BF interpreter, as long as you include an interpreter your submission works with/ specify what it needs.
17:39:43 <RodgerTheGreat> as long as we can run it, and it is in fact BF, it'll be fine.
17:39:51 <GregorR> x-bit [non]-wrapping [0|1|no change] on EOF all OK
17:40:19 <kmkr> well -- it makes a lot difference to use 1-bit and 700-bit interpreters.. :D
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17:40:39 <RodgerTheGreat> naturally. if you see an advantage to either, feel free.
17:40:49 <GregorR> IMHO, if we OK bignum interpreters, we'd OK 700-bit interps :-P
17:42:30 <kmkr> well. i prefer the 8-bit environment but in case it's allowed i may use a bignum interpreter, as it makes many things a lot easier -- and of course easier for others if i use something that's more difficult to program in ;)
17:42:43 <RodgerTheGreat> the general rule is simply that you need to include in your submission any details/etc that we'll need to use it.
17:43:13 <kmkr> hmm, was it that one needs to write a program for every task?
17:43:17 <RodgerTheGreat> including a reference interpreter written in a portable language would be nice, but is not required.
17:49:51 <Razor-X> Make sure your interpreter is platform independant.
17:50:20 <kmkr> what does that mean?
17:50:49 <Razor-X> That means, if you're writing the interpreter in Python for example, make sure a Python implementation on Mac OS X can run it equally as a Linux Python distribution as a Windows Python distribution.
17:52:11 <Razor-X> And (duh), make sure you don't violate the BF ``standard'' ;).
17:52:20 <Razor-X> Other than that, you *must* have fun :P.
17:52:58 <kmkr> speaking of which, shouldn't there be some limit on the brainfuck environment? or is it really as we guessed few mins ago, that limitless memory goes
17:53:13 <Razor-X> See, I was thinking of that, but forgot to bring it up yesterday.
17:53:42 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat and GregorR: You wanna settle a set of standards for BF interpreters?
17:55:47 <Razor-X> I say it meets these minimum requirements A) Infinitely long tape B) Supports only the basic BF commands (+-<>[].,) C) Wrapping cell-``width'' of however much you choose.
17:56:37 <kmkr> well, there are no bf commands except those :)
17:57:14 <Razor-X> The point is not to get people to use other standards ;).
17:57:22 <kmkr> aha. but the cells must be wrapping, so this kind of program would stop: +[+]
17:59:26 <kmkr> and the image format, must it be some existing one?
17:59:53 <kmkr> (referring to that task..)
18:04:16 <Razor-X> No format. That gets too thorny.
18:04:34 <kmkr> then what's the raw image?
18:04:52 <Razor-X> Of course, if you want to go the extra mile for *other* image types... ;)
18:05:09 <kmkr> is there specs for this bitmap?
18:06:34 <GregorR> If EgoBF can interpret it, you're OK :P
18:11:37 <kmkr> hello? what a bitmap looks like on byte-level?
18:13:01 <GregorR> Make a pgm image and then cut off the header.
18:13:05 <lament> i bet none of the comittee members know
18:13:30 <lament> GregorR: then how would you tell the dimensions?
18:13:45 <GregorR> lament: You don't. You prespecify the dimensions.
18:13:55 <GregorR> If you choose to use something bigger than the base, you may also choose to use a better format.
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18:14:00 <lament> doesn't sound like a useful format
18:14:02 <GregorR> But we set the baseline as a raw bitmap.
18:14:08 <GregorR> IT ISN'T A USEFUL FORMAT YOU FUCKING JACKASS
18:14:15 <RodgerTheGreat> the standard BMP format is not that complicated either. You could use that as an alternative.
18:14:35 <kmkr> i can't understand how this bitmap works! how do you define colours?
18:14:42 <kmkr> three bytes to form one rgb?
18:14:52 <RodgerTheGreat> lament: what part of "Esoteric Programming" made you think things are going to be outrageously useful?
18:14:56 <GregorR> kmkr: Our baseline was 8-bit greyscale. If you choose to be RGB, then yeah.
18:15:31 <kmkr> so that'd be a byte per pixel..
18:15:45 <kmkr> and the program would only have to output that?
18:15:59 <kmkr> i can't understand how the dimensions work..
18:16:14 <kmkr> or is every pic 320x240?
18:16:23 <lament> is it left-to-right, top-to-bottom?
18:16:31 <lament> bottom-to-top, right-to-left?
18:16:45 <lament> right-to-bottom, left-to-top?
18:16:46 <GregorR> lament: Despite your groaning, raw bitmap is a well-defined format, so STFU.
18:17:07 <GregorR> L-R, T-B. The size is implementation-designed IF you choose to use raw bitmaps, or you can use whatever you want.
18:17:25 <GregorR> Erm, implementation-specific.
18:17:53 <lament> i don't really care, i'm not allowed to participate :)
18:18:59 <kmkr> well, i guess it could be possible the program would receive the image dimensions as input, too.. and then output the correct amount of pixels, and then the committee would just check the pictures with some program and use the dimensions they input
18:19:09 <kmkr> or however you are going to see the pictures..
18:19:48 <GregorR> I'm making an example image right now.
18:24:10 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/esocomp/ < rose.* = all valid example input. rose.raw is the baseline
18:25:08 <kmkr> what is baseline? what does it mean?
18:25:22 <GregorR> It's the absolute minimum an entry can support.
18:25:39 <GregorR> It has to be able to either support that, or something more complicated than that.
18:26:03 <kmkr> however, the program isn't supposed to take images as input?
18:26:18 <kmkr> oh. i thought it was something about converting ascii characters to a bitmap
18:26:45 <RodgerTheGreat> convert a bitmap to an ascii-art representation of that bitmap.
18:27:04 <kmkr> aah, it means that..
18:27:15 <kmkr> the entry wasn't too clear about it, at least not to me
18:33:29 <kmkr> so, an entry must support all those formats? bmp, png etc?
18:34:03 <Razor-X> No no. Raw bitmap is the baseline.
18:34:34 <kmkr> aha.. allright
18:35:04 <kmkr> well, that's logical ;)
18:37:56 <kmkr> hmmm.. what font we're using?
18:38:55 <Razor-X> Isn't it just going to output raw text? How does it matter?
18:39:02 <kmkr> and should it only use characters 32-126 (or 127)?
18:39:20 <kmkr> it matters a lot what the characters look like!
18:39:42 <kmkr> it doesn't represent picture much if a black pixel is a character 32 or something
18:39:46 <Razor-X> Well, you're going to have to set the font to be universal in the rules RodgerTheGrea.
18:43:41 <RodgerTheGreat> can't we just let contestants decide? If they wimp out and use extended ASCII or some weird font, it'll look like crap compared to a proper job.
18:43:44 <kmkr> anyways, this is interesting challenge/idea, so i'll try my luck on this one. and likely on some other task as well
18:43:57 <kmkr> well, that might be good too
18:44:52 <kmkr> in any case you should define things better in the wiki article
18:45:14 <kmkr> or then declare that participants can decide about pretty much everything
18:45:35 <kmkr> is courier a good font?
18:45:39 <kmkr> for viewing ascii art
18:46:12 <RodgerTheGreat> anything monospaced traditionally works well. Courier is a monospace that everyone has.
18:46:51 <kmkr> i guess i'll be using that, then
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20:16:21 <ihope> (a -> c) -> (a -> b) -> b -> c... mmh.
20:17:03 <ihope> Think (Void -> Void) -> (Void -> ()) -> () -> Void.
20:20:02 <ihope> Hmm... is there really any thing that the contest committee would want to keep s3kr1t?
20:20:14 <ihope> s/any thing/anything/
20:22:18 <ihope> Might as well demolish ##quantum-noinvite, then?
20:22:25 <ihope> And -i ##quantum, of course.
20:22:53 <RodgerTheGreat> if we have any more dark secrets to worry about, we can always +i it again.
20:24:03 <ihope> Or I could grab ##secrets or something.
20:24:35 <ihope> Hmm, that's better...
20:35:58 <ihope> So are angles required in quantum computing?
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21:02:31 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Connection reset by peer).
21:03:12 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
21:06:46 * ihope asks CakeProphet for a chocolate prophecy with vanilla frosting and three candles
21:07:36 <GregorR> CONGRATULATIONS IHOPE UR 3 YRZ OLD ROFLCOPTER
21:07:38 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
21:07:57 <ihope> No, silly, the cake was for you.
21:10:15 * RodgerTheGreat hears the distinctive bacon-frying sound of a successful burn.
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21:15:11 <CakeProphet> I wonder.... what about a programming language whose sole purpose was to create other programming languages that can be used for the task you want to handle?
21:17:52 <Razor-X> Lisp can create other languages *easily*.
21:17:56 <Razor-X> Because of the nature of its REPL.
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21:19:46 <RodgerTheGreat> it's a significantly more complete language than most people think at first.
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21:36:35 <CakeProphet> Who was working on that synthesys language?
21:36:47 <CakeProphet> Might have been GregorR-W or RodgerTheGreat.
21:38:03 <CakeProphet> RodgerTheGreat, Just make every line of the function have an index.
21:39:44 <CakeProphet> And then to keep everything easy to find... have functions defined like a list.
21:40:45 <CakeProphet> Funcs scould be defined something like this
21:41:40 <CakeProphet> ThisFunction(blah, mehblah) = {line1, line2, line3, line4, line5}
21:42:17 <CakeProphet> Each line would have an index *nod* So it could be changed with a variable assignment.
21:42:51 <RodgerTheGreat> the way I was working on it earlier saw each function as a character stack.
21:42:59 <CakeProphet> Strange how eye-opening learning a new language can be.
21:44:24 <CakeProphet> You might be able to do weird stuff like call parts of functions only.
21:44:48 <CakeProphet> ThisFunction[2:3](some params, someparams2)
21:45:09 <CakeProphet> I'm sort of mixing lisp with Python... I'm getting some crazy ideas :D
21:46:00 <CakeProphet> So if you needed to use only a certain piece of the function... but didn't want it to run through other specific bits... you could just specify what section of the function you want.
21:50:14 <CakeProphet> Another neat thing you could do... is to have a special datatype that lets you sign lines to a variable.
21:51:54 <CakeProphet> So... then you could do stuff like "ThisFunction[2] = ThislineofCode"
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21:57:11 <CakeProphet> If that datatype were implemented... a goto command would actually be useful without being bugtastic.
21:57:42 <CakeProphet> That wouldn't work.. because meh isn't a specific thing.. it's a variable that occur several times in the program.. so nevermind.
21:57:58 <CakeProphet> goto meh could be five or six different lines.
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21:58:37 <CakeProphet> Maybe even come up with a way to index indivudal lines of the function.
21:59:16 <CakeProphet> ThieFunction[3[4:5]] = "lol some new code that alters the function."
22:00:01 <CakeProphet> for ThisVariable in ThisFunction: ThisVariable = ThisSecondVariable.
22:00:31 <CakeProphet> You could essentially change all occurances of one variable in the function with another one... with just a line or so of code.
22:04:56 <CakeProphet> And then you could create a ton of useful functions for dealing with other functions... like a swap() function.... which essentially takes two values and swaps them around.
22:05:26 <Razor-X> How are our contestants doing today?
22:05:29 <CakeProphet> swap(ThisFunction[1]. ThisFunction[2]) Would swap line1 of the function with line 2 of the function
22:05:48 <CakeProphet> Other than getting a huge flood of brainstorms just from reading the Wikipedia article on Lisp... doing uh.. bored.
22:06:15 <ihope> Done anything functional before?
22:06:32 <Razor-X> I think this is his first time.
22:06:48 <Razor-X> Because he's thinking about variables and functions at the same time.
22:06:55 <CakeProphet> I can do functions... and they're handy and all... but I've never used a functional language.... not a pure one.
22:07:19 <CakeProphet> Meh... in Python functions -are- variables... the possibility of having that flexibility isn't out of reach.
22:07:19 <ihope> Yeah, learning Lisp seems to induce huge brainstorms :-)
22:07:55 <Razor-X> CakeProphet: You mean that functions can be used as variables because they return a value?
22:07:58 <CakeProphet> So I'm getting all of the ideas from mixing my knowledge of Python's capabilities with a few ideas about Lisp.
22:08:08 <ihope> Razor-X: functions can be stored in variables.
22:08:23 <CakeProphet> Basically everything in Python functions like a variable.
22:08:29 <Razor-X> But if it's non-functional, what's the difference?
22:09:04 <ihope> Can you have two names to reference the same variable?
22:09:08 <ihope> In Python, that is?
22:09:12 <CakeProphet> List slices, lists, classes, objects, methods, functions, everything.
22:09:46 <ihope> Like if x and y were the same variable, giving a value to x would give the same value to y.
22:09:47 <Razor-X> ihope: I don't think he knows about pointers and references.
22:10:07 <ihope> Pah, pointers... :-)
22:10:09 <Razor-X> That's what the default behavior of x = y is, too.
22:10:18 <CakeProphet> I could run Idle really quick and find out.
22:10:26 <Razor-X> (IIRC from a Python anti-rant.)
22:10:37 <ihope> So x = y then y = 3 will also assign x to 3?
22:10:48 <Razor-X> I believe so. It got this person in a huge anger.
22:10:56 <Razor-X> Because he thinks in only C-Logic (TM).
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22:11:50 <CakeProphet> That's a little experiment I did with IDLE.
22:12:18 <ihope> So is it possible to do it such that assigning to y will assign to x, and assigning to x will also assign to y?
22:12:57 <CakeProphet> For some reason I'm not understand what you're asking.. even though it seems so obvious what you're asking.
22:13:31 <ihope> It'd make x and y interchangeable with respect to assignments.
22:14:15 <CakeProphet> Assigning y to x just assigns y to what x returns at that given state.
22:14:29 <CakeProphet> After that... changing x does not affect y... and vice versa.
22:18:11 <CakeProphet> ihope, So you'd prefer having "y=x" mean that y equals whatever x equals throughout the entire run?
22:18:24 <CakeProphet> So if x were changed... y would be changed as well?
22:18:29 <ihope> Probably not y=x, but something like it.
22:18:57 <CakeProphet> Meh... seems not as flexible... but I only code in Python, so I'm just extremly used to how Python works.
22:19:05 <ihope> Does Python have pointers and stuff?
22:19:18 <CakeProphet> Probably not.. I've never heard of them used before brainfuck.
22:19:52 <CakeProphet> I think a mix of Python and Lisp would create an awesome language.
22:19:56 <ihope> Well, I'm talking about some special function or something that would make x and y point to the same location. They could be set to other locations later.
22:20:12 <ihope> And I think a mix of every language would be awesome :-)
22:20:28 <Razor-X> ALGOL is the one true language.
22:20:43 <CakeProphet> Cause Python can do some pretty neat stuffs with lists... so if -everything- were a list in Python... that would just be great.
22:21:10 <Razor-X> Can Python work with higher-order functions?
22:21:23 <lament> CakeProphet: that's really weird logic
22:21:33 <ihope> So you mean being able to use list operations on every value?
22:22:04 <lament> CakeProphet: how would that help when dealing with integers?
22:22:35 <ihope> Cons, nil, and fold are the basic list operations.
22:22:55 <ihope> It's a nullary operation :-)
22:23:00 <CakeProphet> Say you have a variable that returns an integer... but maybe you only want -part- of the integer.
22:23:30 <CakeProphet> Would return only some of the places in that integer.
22:24:13 <CakeProphet> And then with iterations you could do mad stuff like.
22:24:50 <ihope> class List l a | l -> a where cons :: a -> l -> l; nil :: l; foldr :: (a -> b -> b) -> b -> l -> b
22:25:08 <CakeProphet> That... looks like absolute giberish to me.
22:25:11 <ihope> I think that'd allow a person to treat anything as a list in Haskell.
22:25:55 <Razor-X> Does Python have infinite lists?
22:26:22 <lament> you know notihng about python
22:26:28 <lament> and here you're proposing plans to improve it?
22:26:45 <CakeProphet> Not improve Python... just make a totally separate language... No need to be rude.
22:26:48 <lament> To clarily the confusion a little:
22:27:06 <lament> 1) Python lists aren't cons cells, they're not linked lists at all
22:27:21 <CakeProphet> I -have- only been programming for a month...
22:27:32 <ihope> You can cons a value to a Python list.
22:27:45 <lament> 2) In Python you can take any object and give it a bunch of methods having special names, after which you can use the [] list accessing syntax on it
22:27:48 <ihope> CakeProphet: cons(a,[b,c,d]) = [a,b,c,d]
22:28:09 <ihope> It sticks a value on the front of a list.
22:28:31 <ihope> Is [x,y,z] Python list syntax, or does Python use something else?
22:28:33 <lament> 3) Python lists aren't infinite, but because of point 2) you can construct them
22:28:57 <ihope> CakeProphet: yeah. The first element of that list is the value.
22:29:13 <Razor-X> How does the list correspond to the object?
22:29:51 <Razor-X> What's the fun of a list if it isn't linked? Sheesh.
22:30:15 <CakeProphet> Yeah.... I really should read up on non-Python-specific crap.
22:30:16 <lament> A list is an object implementing a bunch of methods, most importantly __getitem__, which takes an integer index as an argument
22:30:18 <ihope> Lists constructed with just cons and nil.
22:30:44 <ihope> foldr replaces the cons and the nil with somethign else.
22:30:46 <Razor-X> So it's just a clever list of object-generic functions specific to your object of choice.
22:30:53 <lament> def __getitem__(self, x): return x
22:31:17 <Razor-X> Kind of like Ruby's attributes, kinda.
22:31:23 <lament> there you go, an infinite list, or in this case more appropriately a set of all objects :)
22:31:25 <CakeProphet> From what I understand... the whole of Python was coded so that each datatype is an object to a class...
22:35:24 <lament> CakeProphet: A cons cell consists of a head and a tail, both of which could contain anything
22:35:43 <lament> 1 is the head, 2 is the tail
22:36:02 <lament> in python this would be the tuple (1, 2)
22:36:17 <lament> now we can put another cons cell in the tail
22:36:41 <lament> 1 is the head, (2 3) is the tail
22:36:55 <lament> 1 is the head, (2 (3 4)) is the tail
22:37:30 <lament> now we define a special object () meaning 'empty list'
22:37:53 <lament> we can make lists of arbitrary length by nesting cons cells in a predictable fashion
22:38:12 <lament> by putting some object in the 'head' section and the remainder of the list in the 'tail'
22:38:34 <lament> eg for a list of integers, the head of each cell is an integer, and the tail is a list.
22:39:26 <CakeProphet> but... lists seem to work fine in most cases.
22:39:41 <lament> what i described is a list.
22:39:53 <lament> what python has is more commonly known as arrays.
22:40:13 <lament> both have advantages and disadvantages.
22:40:40 * CakeProphet wonders why Python uses arrays called "lists" and then has another datatype called an "array"
22:40:57 <CakeProphet> Python has arrays too... but they're not its lists.. which are apparently arrays...
22:41:09 <fizzie> Silly to use (x y) for a cons cell; I would be muchly confused, due to the fact that Scheme uses (x . y) for cons cells, and (x y) would be a two-element list, (x . (y . ())).
22:41:37 <lament> CakeProphet: well, python is weird.
22:41:47 <fizzie> (Just a random outburst; now I sleeps.)
22:41:57 <CakeProphet> MAkes sense to me... but I've been using it predominantly...
22:42:00 <ihope> Haskell uses x:y for a cons.
22:42:00 <lament> CakeProphet: the disadvantage of arrays is that they're a bit difficult to resize
22:42:14 <ihope> [1,2,3] = 1:[2,3] = 1:2:[3] = 1:2:3:[]
22:42:29 <lament> CakeProphet: consider, you have an array of 1000 elements and you want to remove the element 500, how would you do this?
22:43:30 <lament> CakeProphet: do you expect that operation to be fast?
22:43:49 <Razor-X> Most functional languages use (x . y) for a list.
22:44:31 <lament> CakeProphet: do you expect that operation to be equally fast for a list containing 3 elements, and for a list containing ten billion?
22:44:51 <Razor-X> Lists are pretty slow too now. Especially for things of fixed bound and random access.
22:44:58 <lament> CakeProphet: quite so.
22:45:14 <Razor-X> They both have their advantages and disadvantages. But true lists are *lovely* to work with.
22:45:20 <CakeProphet> You could split the list up before doing it.
22:45:41 <lament> CakeProphet: so if you want to remove lots of elements from the middle of long lists, implementing those lists as arrays (such as in Python) might not be the most efficient way of doing it.
22:45:47 <lament> Razor-X: i don't like them
22:46:02 <lament> Razor-X: i actually prefer arrays, and not having to care about the structure :)
22:46:29 * CakeProphet enjoys doing as little work as possible... which is probably why he likes Python...
22:47:05 <CakeProphet> Screw the programs efficiency... I just want it to work with minimal effort on my part.. :D
22:47:50 <lament> that's a good strategy, up to a point.
22:48:40 <CakeProphet> I'm sure on giant projects that would be a bad plan.
22:49:05 <CakeProphet> But chances of me pulling off said giant project by my lonesome is slim to none.. since I'm not doing coding for a business or the like.
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22:51:07 <CakeProphet> Lists are fairly easy to add onto in Python... as far as coder's effort goes... you'd just use the append or extend method.
22:51:10 <lament> you don't need a giant project to have billion-item lists.
22:51:44 <lament> perhaps you're trying to find the biggest prime number :)
22:52:36 <CakeProphet> I have a prime number generator.. whenever I set the range from one to a million.. I get a memory erorr.
22:52:59 <lament> in Haskell, a prime number generator takes no memory at all :)
22:53:56 <CakeProphet> Wouldn't list[500] = "" work pretty efficiently?
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22:55:53 <lament> damn, can't find a good example of prime numbers in haskell
22:55:58 <lament> CakeProphet: does that actually delete anything?
22:56:29 <CakeProphet> Not really... although it simulates deletion.. since empty strings essentially do nothing unless you have a conditional somewhere that employs an empty string.
22:56:34 <pikhq> Lists are easy to handle in Tcl; it's the only datatype. ;)
22:56:49 <lament> primes = sieve [2 .. ]
22:56:50 <lament> sieve (x:xs) = x : sieve (filter (\y -> y 'mod' x > 0) xs)
22:57:29 <lament> CakeProphet: if your 500th element was 'a' and your 501th element was 'b', after deleting 500th element, 500th element should be 'b'
22:58:57 <CakeProphet> Wait... how efficient would "del list[500]" be?
22:59:29 * ihope wonders how well IRC clients implement CTCP
22:59:35 <ihope> I'd have to get Igor in here for that.
22:59:54 <pikhq> set list [lappend [lindex list 0..499] [lindex list 501..end]]
23:00:42 <CakeProphet> Yup... "del list[500]" works.. and probably a lot quicker than list.pop(500)
23:00:44 -!- Igor has joined.
23:00:53 <lament> CakeProphet: I suggest you read this:
23:00:55 <lament> http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html
23:01:55 <Anders> pikhq I thought strings were the only datatype
23:01:59 <Anders> even lists are strings
23:02:57 <pikhq> Or, alternately: proc listdel {list element} {set $list [lappend [lindex $list 0..[expr {$element-1}]] [lindex $list [expr {$element-1}]..end]]}
23:03:26 <pikhq> In Tcl, everything is a list. .
23:03:37 * pikhq is a Tcler; trust me
23:03:49 <Igor> Say hi to Ronn/Igor<CTCP>USERINFO<CTCP>
23:04:05 <ihope> Hmm... something fails at something.
23:04:14 <pikhq> Methinks that's a malformed CTCP message.
23:04:22 <ihope> My client didn't even show it.
23:04:30 <pikhq> Mine showed it as a line of text.
23:05:01 <ihope> What was the line of text?
23:05:17 <pikhq> "Say hi to RonTnI/IgorAUSERINFOA"
23:05:26 <CakeProphet> Hmmm.. I forgot what CTCP looks like to the IRC protocol.
23:06:12 * CakeProphet could turn his bot on and read the printed output it receives to answer that question.
23:06:25 <ihope> PRIVMSG ihope :^AVERSION^A
23:06:52 <ihope> NOTICE someone :^AVERSION Chatzilla 0.9.73 [Firefox 1.5.0.6/2006072814]^A
23:07:02 <CakeProphet> Yeah... notice... that's what I thought it was.
23:07:14 <ihope> Where someone sends the first message and I send the other one.
23:07:42 * CakeProphet will makes his own IRC client at some point.
23:08:10 <CakeProphet> I always mess up when I try to do the asynchronous loop and/or multi-threading.
23:08:22 <CakeProphet> To be able to send and receive text at the same time.
23:08:37 <fizzie> The Spec says that you're not allowed to automagically (in a program) to respond to a PRIVMSG with another PRIVMSG, only a NOTICE. (And that you shouldn't make _any_ automatical replies to a NOTICE.)
23:08:46 <ihope> How does multi-threading work in Python?
23:08:56 <ihope> fizzie: the IRC spec?
23:09:06 <CakeProphet> Eh... it's got a module for it.. I dunno how it works... never been able to multi-thread correctly.
23:09:15 <fizzie> Yes, although bots and such obviously ignore that rule.
23:09:31 <ihope> Well, my Haskell roadblock is the foreign function interface.
23:09:36 <fizzie> That's why ircii's script thingie (I think it was that; might've been epic or something else) converts privmsg-triggered privmsgs to notices.
23:11:01 <ihope> I don't know if I've ever gotten that working.
23:11:08 <CakeProphet> Sadly.. the only realm of programming I'm even mediocre at the moment is event-based... I've made a few IRC bots to help me get familiar with the protocol.
23:11:09 <fizzie> RFC1459, 4.4.2: "The difference between NOTICE and PRIVMSG is that automatic replies must never be sent in response to a NOTICE message. This rule applies to servers too - they must not send any error reply back to the client on receipt of a notice."
23:12:50 <ihope> Well, lemme see if I can get FFI working.
23:13:05 -!- Greenbeanicle has joined.
23:13:41 <ihope> I see it doesn't reply to a CTCP VERSION.
23:13:44 <CakeProphet> It was working fine until I recoded it functionally... the whole thing was imperitive until the reqrite... but now the parser doesn't work.
23:13:56 * pikhq does very well in !C. :p
23:13:58 <CakeProphet> Nope... it respondes to... nothing really.
23:14:08 <ihope> Does it respond to PING?
23:14:23 <ihope> That's what I meant, yeah.
23:14:53 <CakeProphet> Otherwise... it only responds to what I've coded for it... I didn't bother to read the RFC for all the crap I needed... I'll put them in later or something.
23:15:30 <CakeProphet> The only part of the parser that works at the moment is the part that converts non-commands into raw IRC.
23:15:57 <ihope> int add(int x, int y) {return x+y;} <- is that the way to do it?
23:16:01 <CakeProphet> The rest of it went to hell in the rewrite.
23:16:12 <ihope> ?PRIVMSG ihope :whee
23:16:34 <pikhq> ihope: Yes, except that (x+y) is much, much shorter. :p
23:17:07 <ihope> PRIVMSG nalioth :hai r u a boy??????????? :-D :-D :-D
23:17:07 <CakeProphet> But... now that I've rewrote it... it's a little bit cleaner.... I can code in new commands mid-run (even if those commands won't work due to a bug I can't find)... and it doesn't crash everytime it gets an error.
23:18:06 <CakeProphet> Once I get it working I want to program a chess game into it :D
23:18:42 <ihope> <ihope> ?PART ##quantum
23:18:50 <ihope> <--| Greenbeanicle has left ##quantum
23:19:04 <ihope> <ihope> ?JOIN ##quantum
23:19:14 <CakeProphet> Bah.. I wish I could figure out what was wrong with it.
23:19:17 <ihope> Apparently Greenbeanicle doesn't respond to commands in channels it's not in.
23:19:45 <CakeProphet> Also... any PRIVMSGs that are sent directly to it.... will be treated as raw IRC.
23:19:46 <ihope> ?PRIVMSG ##darksecrets :Whee, I can send things to channels I'm not in!
23:20:21 <ihope> ##darksecrets is pretty much a write-only channel right now :-P
23:20:45 <CakeProphet> Actually... imsgs to the bot are the equivalent of the ?-commands that are sent via channels... so any of the bot commands will work that way as well.
23:21:11 <CakeProphet> Except... the bot commands aren't working right now... because of that damn bug.
23:21:29 <ihope> ?JOIN ##darksecrets
23:21:40 <ihope> Now Green's in on the dark secrets.
23:22:30 <CakeProphet> By "bot comamnds" I mean the ones that aren't IRC commands... that I programmed in myself.
23:22:53 <ihope> There. Now people can send messages to ##darksecrets, but nobody will recieve them.
23:23:36 <ihope> Now ##darksecrets has no operators :-P
23:23:58 <pikhq> I think Greenbeanicle died.
23:24:02 <ihope> ?PART ##darksecrets
23:24:08 <CakeProphet> ?help, ?rev, ?A, ?fuck, ?Afuck, "Arev, ?revfuck, ?revAfuck,
23:24:20 <CakeProphet> Those were all the commands... all of which are pretty useless... but fun to screw around with.
23:24:32 <ihope> ?JOIN ##darksecrets
23:24:34 <pikhq> ?PRIVMSG Greenbeanicle :Have I died?
23:24:51 <pikhq> ?PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have I died?
23:25:02 -!- Greenbeanicle has left (?).
23:25:19 -!- Greenbeanicle has joined.
23:25:46 <CakeProphet> I really should have the bot send me a pm everytime it gets a pm... so I know what the hell people are doing with it...
23:25:54 <fizzie> It's "does not show up in /list or /whois of people" in ircnet.
23:26:11 <fizzie> IRCnet and freenode have some differences there, though.
23:26:24 <ihope> Apparently that's what it is in Freenode, too.
23:26:59 <ihope> So now both me and Greenbeanicle are in ##darksecrets, and anybody can send messages there, but I will recieve them and he won't.
23:27:05 <ihope> Nobody can join ##darksecrets.
23:27:23 <CakeProphet> So.. basically.. the bug is that it's completely ignoring the parser... and just treating everything as though it were raw IRC.
23:27:35 <CakeProphet> Which is sort of the "else" of the parser.
23:27:54 * CakeProphet has a pastebin of the code somewhere... if one of you wizzes can fix it.
23:28:09 -!- Greenbeanicle has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:28:52 <ihope> Oh, and Greenbeanicle is no longer in ##darksecrets :-P
23:29:35 <CakeProphet> ...thank you for the update (I closed the bot's program...)
23:30:37 <ihope> So can you give us a paste?
23:33:12 <Razor-X> My IRC bot is working strong in another channel I'm in.
23:33:51 <Razor-X> It's semi-modular too, so I can easily add/remove features if I want.
23:35:57 <Razor-X> I got everything except the negotiation code in its own module.
23:36:19 <CakeProphet> Does it make any sense? I'm guessing it's near illegible.
23:36:49 -!- Sph1nx has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:36:58 <Razor-X> My bot is pretty small, like... 500-600 lines, IIRC.
23:37:27 <ihope> Yes, it's near illegible.
23:38:04 <CakeProphet> I have a paticular affinity at creating unreadable masses of shit that only I can read.
23:38:53 <Razor-X> If you program in INTERCAL, it's impossible not to.
23:39:27 <Razor-X> When I was 9 and programming, I used to randomly declary variables when I needed them with descriptive names like `x' and `y'.
23:40:18 <CakeProphet> well.... they tend to shift purposes mid-program... which might account for some of the illegibleness.
23:40:23 <Razor-X> There's only one really illegilble piece of code in my IRC bot, and that's the two different functions cParm and cParam.
23:40:49 <pikhq> Nowadays, my illegible code is in Brainfuck. . .
23:41:10 <pikhq> My actual code may make you go "WTF?!?", but it is easy to at least tell what I'm trying to do. :p
23:41:24 <Razor-X> I should put my Haskell IRC bot online.
23:41:34 <CakeProphet> The variable "msg" in my bot is first assigned to the actually message part of every PRIVMSG.... but later down in the program it becomes the variable that tells the bot what to send to a channel.
23:41:41 <Razor-X> I couldn't stand LambdaBot because of the sheer number of monads it used.
23:41:57 <Razor-X> Obviously, Haskell has no variable.
23:43:01 <Razor-X> Maybe some of the code for quote retreival is a bit loopy.
23:43:25 <Razor-X> talkToChannel server channel ( "Quote " ++ (show rnum) ++ " of " ++ ( show ( length ( BS.lines file ) ) ) ++ ": " ++ ( BS.unpack (( BS.lines ( file ) !! (rnum - 1 ) ) ) ) )
23:44:48 <Razor-X> The only reason it gets so awful like that is because I wanted to use Don's Data.ByteStrings library for fast IO.
23:45:22 <Razor-X> I've compared it against the dominant Python bot, the dominant C bot, and a Perl bot someone I know coded and it beats them all in the speed of the functions it performs.
23:45:29 <pikhq> Haskell looks awfully Lispish. . .
23:45:37 <CakeProphet> Eh... it vaguely makes sense to me... although I couldn't tell you exactly what each part does.
23:45:43 <Razor-X> Only because I overdose on parentheses, pikhq.
23:45:53 <Razor-X> It's a bad habit I got from Lisp ^^
23:45:57 <pikhq> I can see the differences between it and sexps, though. . .
23:47:03 <Razor-X> Of course, reading my module code is nowhere close to the way the code in the belly of the bot looks, because function languages are awesome like that!
23:47:32 <CakeProphet> JumpRope is probably the best language ever... as far as language concepts go.
23:47:49 <Razor-X> That is also one of my favorite uses of lists in Haskell ever.
23:47:57 * pikhq loves the idea behind functional languages. . .
23:48:53 * pikhq ends up using Tcl for a lot of the stuff you can do in functional languages (Tcl is by no means a pure functional language; it's more of a bastardisation between an imperative language and a functional one). . .
23:49:21 <Razor-X> I suggest using ``A Gentle Introduction to Haskell'' and ``Yet Another Haskell Tutorial'' to get started.
23:49:29 <pikhq> I mean to, but I just can't figure out enough time for it. . .
23:49:36 <pikhq> Ah, who am I kidding?
23:49:47 <pikhq> I'm in #esoteric, for Christ's sake! :p
23:49:51 <Razor-X> If I can get 100+ vocab words in Japanese done per-day, program, and summer homework, you can too :D.
23:50:11 <pikhq> School has started already. . .
23:50:27 <Razor-X> Doesen't mean I'll stop any of that.
23:50:40 <Razor-X> I just go to sleep later, eat less, etc.
23:50:48 <pikhq> You'll be doing summer homework. . . During school?
23:51:21 <Razor-X> I'll be doing regular homework instead. Bub.
23:51:24 <CakeProphet> A Python/Lisp combo-with-other-little-sprinkles-on-top would be an awesome idea.
23:51:38 <lament> it's called Dylan i think
23:51:50 <Razor-X> CakeProphet: I suggest you see Lisp in its entirety.
23:52:01 <lament> CakeProphet: read SICP
23:52:01 <CakeProphet> The eso wiki could be pretty useful for collaborate programming-language-constructions.
23:52:04 <Razor-X> And by that I mean, write something semi-complex in it.
23:52:20 <lament> everybody ought to read SICP
23:52:22 <Razor-X> Learn either Common Lisp or Scheme. Common Lisp is more powerful, but more complex and less clean.
23:52:37 <lament> learn Scheme because that's what SICP uses :)
23:54:10 <Razor-X> Pshhh. Common Lisp for the win.
23:54:40 <Razor-X> Also advice: Go to #scheme if you want Scheme help. Go to #lisp if you want Common Lisp help. Do NOT go to #lisp for Scheme help. #lisp and #scheme are like two warring African tribes.
23:54:47 * CakeProphet screws all of those suggestions and does whatever the hell he wants to do?
23:55:50 <Razor-X> If you want to have sex with suggestions, be my guest bub.
23:56:27 * pikhq opts for a bit more romance first :p
23:56:40 <ihope> My computer's power cord is hovering dangerously close to the cat's forehead.
23:57:02 <Razor-X> They break down all my geekishness in a few seconds.
23:57:06 <ihope> Especially when they're asleep...
23:57:15 <Razor-X> (Along with stuffed animals and a few other things.)
23:58:08 <Razor-X> Also, I suggest bub tries out other languages. Non-esoteric ones too. (Blaspheme, I know.)
23:58:41 <ihope> Isn't a blaspheme a piece of blasphemy?
23:58:51 <Razor-X> Not in my writing style it isn't.
00:00:32 <ihope> Or a piece of something blasphical.
00:01:31 <Razor-X> Is ALGOL considered esoteric?
00:01:39 <lament> Razor-X: reading SICP is more important than knowing Lisp or Scheme
00:02:06 <ihope> Razor-X: if it wasn't intended to be esoteric, it's not esoteric.
00:02:07 <lament> well, unless you already know the material.
00:02:14 <lament> which CakeProphet clearly doesn't.
00:02:26 <ihope> COBOL and BANCstar are not esoteric.
00:03:20 <ihope> Apparently blasphemes are the main concept behind blasphology.
00:04:14 <CakeProphet> Hmmm... so.... how about a language that changes itself based whatever the hell the programmer needs?
00:04:39 <CakeProphet> Say you want lazy evaluation for some project instead of eager... then you can just set the parameter at the very beginning of the program.
00:04:41 <lament> CakeProphet: you mean Lisp?
00:05:09 <ihope> Uh... thunks. The eager kind.
00:05:22 <ihope> That's how you do eagerness in Thubi.
00:06:03 <CakeProphet> Or maybe have keywords for different types of evaluation... you can switch in and out of different types of evaluation with a special keyword.
00:06:16 <ihope> It's Thue plus full I/O capabilities.
00:06:23 <CakeProphet> Or anything... typing... compilation/interpretation.
00:06:32 <ihope> Thue already has full O, but not full I.
00:07:57 <ihope> That is, it has full O as long as you use the newline hack.
00:08:15 <lament> CakeProphet: please read SICP
00:09:19 <CakeProphet> Is there some fundamental flaw in that idea?
00:09:55 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
00:10:13 <lament> yes - you haven't read SICP
00:10:40 <lament> which actually looks at that
00:11:57 <ihope> Is there a copy of SICP online?
00:13:25 <lament> i pasted it quite recently
00:13:32 <lament> http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html
00:14:09 <ihope> You better read in, CakeProphet, because I'm reading it, and it's you who's supposed to read it.
00:27:59 * ihope sets some masses on a gravitational field
00:28:45 <ihope> Actually, they're marbles on a Ziploc bag with some water in it.
00:28:49 <ihope> Same thing, right?
00:29:26 <CakeProphet> Hmmm.. a programming language that looks like pirate jargon.
00:30:28 <Razor-X> CakeProphet: Yes, you should read SICP to get familiar with the concepts of Lisp.
00:31:15 <Razor-X> And pick up Guile too, so you can have fun with Scheme.
00:31:33 <Razor-X> You may also want to look at the Abelson-Sussman lectures instead.
00:31:41 <Razor-X> (Which is for Common Lisp.)
00:31:49 <Razor-X> Plus, you get a guy who looks like a gnome in it!
00:31:58 <Razor-X> http://swiss.ai.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/gjspicture.jpg
00:32:04 <CakeProphet> They all look... really demanding on the coder...
00:32:35 <CakeProphet> I'm used to Python's lack-of-shit-to-type-for-something-to-happen.
00:32:54 <Razor-X> Well, programming is dependant on the gray matter that exists betwen the cranial buffer fluid.
00:33:24 <CakeProphet> If I can accomplish something with less typing... I'm going to use that language.
00:33:30 <Razor-X> In Lisp, with macros (not sure that much about Scheme's macros), it should decrease *most* user overhead effectively.
00:37:05 <CakeProphet> I like the idea of a programming language specially designed for creating or adding onto a programming language.
00:37:05 -!- macgeek- has changed nick to macgeek.
00:37:32 <Razor-X> That's what makes functional languages fun, the language changes for you, not you for it.
00:37:38 <CakeProphet> hmmm... Lisp does that right? But that's not its main goal..
00:37:49 <Razor-X> No! It *is* one of its main goals!
00:38:44 <Razor-X> So, are you going by the lectures or SICP?
00:40:24 <Razor-X> Are you going to read SICP first or read the lectures then SICP?
00:41:13 <CakeProphet> Dunno... I don't plan crap like that out...
00:41:21 -!- RodgerTh1Great has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:43:19 <CakeProphet> Programming isn't a passion of mine... it's a hobby... I have no rush to learn as much about it as I can... Python is just easy enough to be fun... everything looks too annoying to type.
00:43:45 <Razor-X> I feel slighted if I don't learn everything about a subject I'm interested in.
00:43:49 <CakeProphet> Meh.. maybe I just can't get out of my comfort zone... oh well... at least I'm comfortable.
00:43:50 <Razor-X> And I don't like feeling slighted.
00:44:07 <Razor-X> Quantum computing is the only thing I've really taken on faith.
00:44:39 <CakeProphet> I just simply don't care... life is here for me to have fun... if I'm not having fun I'm wasting my life.
00:45:03 <Razor-X> I love learning languages, finding grammar rules, programming, creating new languages, dreaming up stories, etc, etc.
00:45:04 <CakeProphet> *shrugs* Different people have different ways of having fun...
00:45:22 <CakeProphet> I personally love the idea of -making- programming languages... but using them is a little less attractive.
00:46:09 <Razor-X> That maybe so, but you should be familiar with the concepts of other languages so you don't reinvent the wheel and so you have a basis of ideas.
00:46:31 <Razor-X> I ``know'' more languages than I can remember, but I doubt I can program much in them. I know their concepts though.
00:47:00 <CakeProphet> I know most of the concepts on the surface... nothing in-depth though.
00:47:03 <Razor-X> But my human languages are all pretty good.
00:47:27 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht").
00:47:39 <Razor-X> (In that I haven't forgotten them.)
00:51:43 <lament> CakeProphet: no, you don't know most concepts even on the surface
00:51:56 <lament> CakeProphet: when only today you had to be told what lists are
00:52:05 <lament> it really doesn't get any more basic than that
00:52:37 <Razor-X> When you build languages, you should know how a computer works on a certain level.
00:53:14 <Razor-X> If you know your concepts, write a BF->Python compiler in Python.
00:56:41 <Razor-X> It is actually really easy.
00:56:44 <CakeProphet> The only thing I really enjoy doing is... hmmm... music and writing...
00:56:46 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
00:57:15 <pikhq> Coding is a great joy. . .
00:58:19 <CakeProphet> probably the most enjoyable part of joding is taking what I've crerated and writing comments for it.
00:59:58 <RodgerTheGreat> is everybody putting some ++++++++++[>++++++<-]>.---------. into their submissions for the contest?
01:00:40 <Razor-X> !bf ++++++++++[>++++++<-]>.---------.
01:01:13 <lament> what instruments do you play?
01:01:26 <CakeProphet> Guitar, trombone, harmonica, a little bit of piano.
01:02:40 <lament> classical, acoustic, electric?
01:03:13 <CakeProphet> I have an acoustic and an electirc... oh and a bass
01:03:47 <lament> well, what kind of music do you play?
01:04:27 <CakeProphet> Meh.... blues/rock (not shitty new rock...)/psychadelic-ish-stuff/whatever
01:04:51 <Razor-X> Everyone who plays music loves calling one genre bad :D
01:04:56 <CakeProphet> Playing something planned bores me to no end.
01:05:22 <CakeProphet> Meh... it's not bad.. I just personally don't like it.. everything is preference though.
01:05:47 <Razor-X> I prefer classical to play, personally.
01:05:53 <Razor-X> European Classical, to be exact.
01:06:31 <CakeProphet> The style that is... then I would imrpov classical-sounding stuff.
01:06:43 <ihope> This keyboard feels really weird since I've gotten used to touching that Ziploc bag filled with water.
01:07:17 <CakeProphet> I can improv something classical-sounding.. but I don't really know anything about it so it's probably something generic sounding.
01:07:19 <Razor-X> Classical sounding music is pretty definitely defined, you know. There's a set time and a set of scales which people love to play on.
01:07:38 <Razor-X> Music theory is fun. One of my favorite parts of music.
01:08:28 <Razor-X> No. I'm not much of a romantic, if you haven't noticed.
01:08:57 <CakeProphet> Playing something written on a sheet feels.... emotionless.
01:10:05 * RodgerTheGreat is listening to Icemachine: Revolution by skyrunner from BrainControl
01:10:28 <Sgeo> Bye for now all, see you later
01:11:07 * Razor-X is listening to Nothing -- No-one [0:00/0:00].
01:11:59 <lament> i'm not a big fan of music theory, not sure how much playing classical has to do with it
01:12:41 <lament> it's just music, that happens to be thousands times better than whatever crap you're going to improvise; so why not play it?
01:12:42 <CakeProphet> A good bit.. classical pretty much -is0 music theory.
01:12:45 -!- tgwizard has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:12:52 <lament> CakeProphet: you are wrong.
01:13:09 * pikhq is listening to White Noise -- Frodo [time unknown]
01:13:34 * pikhq has music theory down pretty well. . .
01:13:41 <pikhq> As well as actual *music*. ;)
01:13:57 <CakeProphet> I know the basics... otherwise I would sound terrible improvising.
01:14:21 <lament> anyway, going home, bbl
01:24:53 <Razor-X> Uggh. I didn't know Abelson is so *boring*.
01:31:28 <Razor-X> The guy from the Lisp lectures.
01:31:51 <Razor-X> He has just spent 19 minutes teaching me about black boxes.
01:32:43 <Razor-X> I was struggling not to fall asleep.
01:32:56 <ihope> A black box is a function that we don't know anything about, but we can still feed inputs to a black box and get outputs.
01:33:01 <ihope> Black boxes in 19 seconds.
01:33:08 <ihope> If you're a slow reader, that is.
01:33:10 <Razor-X> Or to float off into magic-land when a teacher goes into some horribly boring lecture.
01:34:23 <Razor-X> I hear they're great but, please tell me it gets more interesting.
01:35:08 <RodgerTheGreat> I've only been through about half of them, but I thought they improved.
01:35:21 <RodgerTheGreat> you might want to just skip ahead if you already know the language.
01:35:51 <Razor-X> Well, his introduction seems aimed for the completely new person into programming.
01:36:21 <Razor-X> Principles of abstraction become pretty obvious after coding for a while.
01:36:36 <Razor-X> What lecture does the meat start from?
01:36:57 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, I mostly watched them to learn the semantics of LISP more thoroughly.
01:37:03 <Razor-X> (I still say Sussman looks like a gnome.)
01:37:16 <CakeProphet> I hate it when teaching stuff assumes you already know shit about programming..
01:37:27 <CakeProphet> I swear I've yet to find instructions for someone who knows JACKSHIT about programming...
01:37:38 <CakeProphet> most of what I know is self-taught and learned from others.
01:38:07 <Razor-X> You think I've taken a programming course in my life? :D
01:38:21 <RodgerTheGreat> as I said, I haven't been through all of them, but I imagine the last couple would be pretty interesting.
01:38:32 <Razor-X> Or any math course above Pre-Calculus Algebra and Trigonometry?
01:38:38 <CakeProphet> I do think it would help a bit if material actually -explained- terminology...
01:38:51 -!- Weirdbro has joined.
01:39:17 <Razor-X> Since I started when I was 7 and in the ages of dial-up, the help of other people was not really there.
01:39:25 <CakeProphet> RodgerTheGreat, That function-as-list idea was conceptualized in my head with Python... and in Python lists are arrays.
01:39:29 <Razor-X> I had to learn to read and absorb things on my own.
01:39:30 -!- macgeek has changed nick to macgeek-.
01:39:38 <Weirdbro> IRP: Please, some one write the 12 number of the Fibonacci Sequence in binary
01:40:06 <CakeProphet> error = lazy evaluation doesn't want to try.
01:40:12 <pikhq> Hark! Is that a slave of proprietary software?
01:40:32 <Razor-X> Hark! Why is everyone using ``Hark'' ?
01:40:34 <pikhq> pikhq: Calculation could not be performed: programmer too lazy.
01:41:11 <RodgerTheGreat> seriously, dude. you're every bit as much a slave to software created by other people as I am. everyone using a computer stands on the shoulders of giants.
01:41:34 <Razor-X> Proprietary is not equal to software created by others.
01:41:38 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: The difference is that I can actually stand on the shoulders of giants instead of being stomped on by them.
01:41:39 <Weirdbro> Hark! I am mostly not a slave of proprietary software. My Linux just happens to be running in a virtual machine inside of windows.
01:41:59 * CakeProphet is depressed... someone hand me a shoulder to cry on :(
01:42:05 <Razor-X> Can you edit your WM in real time? Ho ho.
01:42:15 * RodgerTheGreat detaches a spare shoulder and hands it to CakeProphet.
01:42:21 <pikhq> Can you edit your WM at all?
01:42:42 <Razor-X> StumpWM and Ratpoison for the win!
01:42:53 <RodgerTheGreat> why would I want to modify my window manager? It does precisely what I need.
01:42:58 * pikhq is temporarily enslaved by nonfree software. . . Curse you, Nvidia!
01:43:19 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: That's because you haven't yet thought of ways of making it better.
01:43:19 <CakeProphet> I'm having one of those "I have no purpose" fits of depression.
01:43:44 <CakeProphet> RodgerTheGreat, BRAINSTORM FASTER DUMBASS. </sarcasm>
01:43:47 <Razor-X> I'm bored right now at Abelson and want to take a shower and the read some more of my Japanese novel.
01:43:58 <pikhq> Here in the world of GNU/Linux, if I want a new feature, I can write it myself, ask a friend to do it for me, pay a programmer to do it, or do without.
01:44:36 <pikhq> Out there in the world of nonfree software, if you want a new feature, you can beg and pay for the upgrade with the feature, beg and not get the new feature, or not beg and just do without.
01:44:52 <Razor-X> Or you can beg and pay and get no upgrade.
01:45:11 <pikhq> Razor-X: Still getting raped up the ass.
01:45:12 <RodgerTheGreat> I use my computer to accomplish tasks, not to constantly tweak my environment in pursuit of some lofty "perfect environment". I am pleased with my machine how it is, and I strike a useful balance between having unix at my fingertips and being able to run software without being forced to compile it.
01:45:21 <CakeProphet> Or you could engage conversations with windows and mac users about how awesome linux is.
01:45:46 <Razor-X> I love my perfect environment :3.
01:45:53 <pikhq> I use my computer to accomplish tasks, and if it doesn't yet accomplish a task I want, it will in a week.
01:46:25 <pikhq> If your computer doesn't yet accomplish a task you want, it *might* after several months of begging and a paid upgrade.
01:46:42 <RodgerTheGreat> at least I'm not instantly dismissive and elitist to users of "inferior" operating systems. It's called choice.
01:46:43 <CakeProphet> In many ways... the computers are our bitches... which is why I follow the-coder-should-have-it-easy philosophy
01:46:45 <Razor-X> But Linux has its faults too, dun forget.
01:46:59 <CakeProphet> My bitch does my work... I just tell it what to do in the easiest way possible :D
01:47:02 <Razor-X> *Cough* Encoding software *Cough*.
01:47:05 <Weirdbro> I would love Linux even more if all the proprietary stuff suddenly became FOSS by means of the Linux penguin destroying the resistance.
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01:47:46 <Razor-X> I don't have the video background neccessary to code encoding software :(.
01:48:11 <ihope> The "I have no purpose" depression can be remedied easily by finding someone who cares about you.
01:48:30 <Razor-X> I always have a purpose in my self-centered world.
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01:49:33 <ihope> Pah. Just ask somebody if he cares about you, and if the answer's "no", ask somebody else.
01:50:10 <RodgerTheGreat> unless you decide to join a clique and conform to the mores of a large social group, it's anything but simple to find someone that cares about you. The internet can be a lonely place.
01:50:15 <CakeProphet> ...I'm pretty sure the answer here will be "no"... and I don't really... know a lot of people..
01:50:39 <Razor-X> The answer: Become hopelessly introverted and egotistical.
01:50:49 <Razor-X> The WORLD is at fault, not YOU :D.
01:50:53 <ihope> Hey, we seem pretty alike.
01:51:22 <ihope> I love Python, despite the fact that I don't know much and it doesn't have the features I want.
01:51:26 <RodgerTheGreat> Razor-X seems to have stumbled across the underlying cause of myspace's popularity.
01:52:12 <Razor-X> Of course, I also realize that to these other people that believe they exist but are a figment of my imagination, they don't have the synapses space dominated in my brain to care about my likes and dislikes.
01:53:35 <RodgerTheGreat> it is a fact that the only person we can be sure is real is ourself, and even then it can be difficult.
01:54:15 <ihope> Okay. CakeProphet, I'd like to learn Python tomorrow, and if you commit suicide or something, I will be very unhappy.
01:54:20 <RodgerTheGreat> this brings into play the question of sentience: is there ANY way someone can really prove to you that they're sentient? I'd say there isn't.
01:54:52 <RodgerTheGreat> the text-only communication in IRC only serves to reinforce this concept.
01:54:56 <Razor-X> ihope: Go and read a reference manual. Bub.
01:55:21 <CakeProphet> Oh no no... I'm way more knowledgable than a reference manual.
01:55:25 <Razor-X> I feel like coding in Lisp again.
01:56:02 <ihope> Everybody who has a nick starting with "r" is now banned from ##quantum.
01:56:24 <ihope> However, it just so happens that everybody who has a nick starting with "r" can use the UNBAN command on ChanServ.
01:56:40 <ihope> So feel free to unban yourselves at any time.
01:57:12 <Razor-X> I will now ban every nickname that starts with `z'.
01:57:43 <Razor-X> It's a display of my godlike power.
01:58:16 <Razor-X> Anyhow. I feel icky and unfeminine. Shower time.
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02:00:19 <ihope> Razor-X: so where's the ban?
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02:09:48 <ihope> I have no idea how Igor managed to stay in without PONGing.
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02:26:43 <Weirdbro_> IRP: Please output a link to a Brainfuck tutorial
02:28:03 <pikhq> pikhq: Error: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck only links to tutorials, but is not in itself a tutorial: programmer thought that this would help, but didn't parse it literally.
02:28:16 <pikhq> exit(ERROR_FAILURE);
02:28:17 <Weirdbro_> Gosh, this IRP server is useless. I'd better go to one with strict evalutation.
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03:59:25 <GregorR> HELLO I AM MUHAMMED MUSSAFFAH IL BAN FALLAFEL I AM FROM MADAGASCAR AND NEED A TRUSTWORTHY ACCOUNT IN YOUR COUNTRY I GOT YOUR CHANNEL NAME FROM A FRIEND WHO SAYS YOU CAN BE TRUSTED I NEED TO TRANSFER LARGE SUMS OF MONEY ($4000000 USD) PLEASE EMAIL this_is_not_a_spam_email_address@yahoo.com WITH YOUR BANK INFORMATION AND I WILL SEND YOU THE MONEY YOU WILL GET 15% AS COMPENSATION THANK YOU GOD BLESS YOU JESUS WUVS U KTHXBYE
04:00:15 <GregorR> Now, to combine it with other common forms of spam ...
04:01:08 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat").
04:01:18 <GregorR> HELLO I AM MUHAMMED MUSSAFFAH IL BAN FALLAFEL I AM FROM MADAGASCAR AND NEED A TRUSTWORTHY ACCOUNT IN YOUR COUNTRY I GOT YOUR CHANNEL NAME FROM A FRIEND WHO SAYS YOU CAN BE TRUSTED I NEED TO TRANSFER LARGE SUMS OF PENIS ENLARGEMENT (10 INCHES IN ONE WEEK WOW) PLEASE EMAIL this_is_not_a_spam_email_address@yahoo.com WITH YOUR BANK INFORMATION AND I WILL SEND YOU THE MONEY YOU WILL GET 8 INCHES IN TWO WEEKS AS COMPENSATION THANK YOU GOD BLESS YOU JESUS WUVS
04:01:57 <pikhq> That's a very good idea.
04:03:03 <GregorR> HELLO I AM MUHAMMED MUSSAFFAH IL BAN FALLAFEL I AM FROM MADAGASCAR AND NEED A TRUSTWORTHY ACCOUNT IN YOUR COUNTRY I GOT YOUR CHANNEL NAME FROM A FRIEND WHO SAYS YOU CAN BE TRUSTED I NEED TO TRANSFER LARGE SUMS OF PENIS ENLARGEMENT (10 INCHES IN ONE WEEK WOW) PLEASE EMAIL this_is_not_a_spam_email_address@yahoo.com WITH YOUR BANK INFORMATION AND I WILL SEND YOU THE MONEY YOU WILL GET 8 INCHES IN TWO WEEKS AS COMPENSATION THANK YOU GOD BLESS YOU JESUS WUVS
04:03:04 <GregorR> U KTHXBYE IF YOU FORWARD THIS EMAIL TO SEVEN PEOPLE JESUS WONT STRIKE YOU DOWN ADD YOUR EMAIL HERE: moron@hotmail.com dumbass@hotmail.com AND YOU WILL GET LOTS OF PENIS ENLARGEMENT ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS SEND 1 INCHE OF PENIS ENLARGEMENT TO EACH NAME ON THE LIST THEN ADD YOURSELF AND EMAIL SEVEN PEOPLE IT REALLY WORKS WOW
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07:37:34 <Razor-X> Is anyone submitting the trig function calculator to the contest?
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07:57:06 <Razor-X> I'm asking the contestants.
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08:07:49 <Arrogant> Razor-X, when I get married I demand you be best man.
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12:23:29 <ihope_> You're best man now, dog...
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14:12:03 <ihope_> >data Sentence = True | False | ForallSentences (Sentence -> Sentence) | ExistsSentence (Sentence -> Sentence) | Surely Sentence | Maybe Sentence | Not Sentence | Fails Sentence | Sentence `And` Sentence | Sentence `Or` Sentence | Sentence `Implies` Sentence
14:13:06 <ihope_> data TruthValue = SurelyTrue | Unknown | SurelyFAlse
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14:15:00 <CakeProphet> mmm... the joys of -not- going to school todat.
14:17:47 <ihope_> Mmm... the joys of summer vacation...
14:20:40 <CakeProphet> oh... bo I'm back in school... I just decided not to go today... because I'm a rebel like that. ;)
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15:44:45 <CakeProphet> You could do all sorts of complex expression with just a few lines of code.
15:46:08 <CakeProphet> Hmmm... I wonder... can you put a cond inside of +, -, /, or *?
15:46:36 <CakeProphet> cond works like any other lisp function right? It can be placed inside other functions I'm guessing.
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15:50:03 <CakeProphet> That's an interesting way to think about it... rather than the usual use-if-statements-to-assign-a-variable-then-add-the-variable-to-5 method of doing that.
15:50:18 <CakeProphet> You could put the if in the addition itself.
15:51:45 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah- I've used that trick to save a couple bytes writing programs on my calculator.
15:52:11 <ihope_> x + (if x == 7 then 2 else 5)
15:53:00 <CakeProphet> Hmmm... and then if you -needed- a variable... you could put a cond into a define statement.
15:53:08 * CakeProphet likes how everything in lisp is interchangeable.
15:53:20 <CakeProphet> There's 4 billion different ways to do the same thing.
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15:54:56 <ihope_> (if 7 /= x then 5 else 2) + x
15:59:00 <CakeProphet> You could do some crazy stuff with indexes.
16:01:48 <CakeProphet> ihope_, what are the key differences between Lisp and Scheme?
16:02:45 <ihope_> Scheme has call-with-current-continuation and uses ? for predicates, and Lisp doesn't have call-with-current-continuation and uses p for predicated.
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16:06:21 <ihope_> You'll never use call-with-current-continuation, and the other difference doesn't matter.
16:06:40 <ihope_> Dunno the other differences.
16:10:38 <CakeProphet> I -just- figured out how a while loop works...
16:11:09 <CakeProphet> Or at least... I know how you would define a while-looping function in Lisp.
16:12:14 <ihope_> So what's one look like in Lisp?
16:12:35 <ihope_> Probably not especially different from in Haskell.
16:12:43 <CakeProphet> Oh dear... I temporarily forgot how the define function works for defining functions.... I forgot where the ()'s go.
16:19:03 <CakeProphet> (define (while meh statement) (cond (meh (while meh statement))) Although I have a feeling I messed up horribly somewhere.
16:19:44 * CakeProphet has only a days worth of reading-one-book-but-never-actually-using-Lisp
16:21:03 <ihope_> factorial x = x * factorial (x-1)
16:23:48 <CakeProphet> The while function calls itself if the "meh" conditional is true... yaaaay figuring-shit-like-this-out.
16:25:01 <ihope_> while p f x | p x = while p f (f x)
16:25:13 <CakeProphet> We kind of program in the reverse order of what the computer does... in a way.
16:25:13 <ihope_> while p f x | otherwise = x
16:25:49 <CakeProphet> We work on the outside layer of the program... and the computer starts at the bottom and works its way up... while we start from the top and work our way down.
16:30:27 <CakeProphet> Still haven't figured out iterators though.
16:30:52 <CakeProphet> I don't get for... or at least the way Python's for works.
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16:40:14 <CakeProphet> Anyone recommend any good Lisp compilers? (or interpreters.. I can't remember which one it is.)
16:41:18 <ihope_> CakeProphet: you mean you don't know what Python's for does, or you don't know how to do it in Lisp?
16:42:00 <CakeProphet> Both.... although I vaguely know that Python's for involves the __iter__ attribute of certain datatypes...
16:42:20 <CakeProphet> I don't know the specific functioning... at a low level.
16:51:22 <CakeProphet> Hmm.. if Malbolge wanted to be more impossible to code... it could dynammically encrypt every line after you type it.
16:51:31 <CakeProphet> Move down a line... and the line above becomes illegible.
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16:51:46 <CakeProphet> Hmm.. if Malbolge wanted to be more impossible to code... it could dynammically encrypt every line after you type it.
16:51:49 <CakeProphet> Move down a line... and the line above becomes illegible.
16:51:56 <CakeProphet> (repeated that, for RodgerTheGreats pleasure)
16:58:52 <CakeProphet> RodgerTheGreat, Can you link me to a Lisp compiler? Or is it interpreter?
17:00:29 <RodgerTheGreat> I know of one for PalmOS offhand, but I can probably find you a good one for OSX/Linux/Windows
17:01:58 <GregorR-W> http://www.gnu.org/software/scheme/
17:02:11 <GregorR-W> Damn. That's what I get for making up URLs.
17:02:42 <GregorR-W> http://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/
17:03:35 <GregorR-W> "Note that you cannot build a working system from the source unless you have a working MIT/GNU Scheme compiler to do the compilation." hahahah
17:03:42 <GregorR-W> Recursive dependencies are good for you.
17:03:55 * GregorR-W 's opinion is that that's only excusable for C :P
17:04:08 <GregorR-W> And only for C because you need to have /some/ base.
17:07:30 <Razor-X> Mmmm. No, there are a good many differences.
17:07:51 <Razor-X> Scheme's most popular interpreter is Guile, and Lisp's most common interpreter is clisp.
17:08:14 <Razor-X> Other good ones for Common Lisp are SBCL and CMUCL.
17:08:24 <CakeProphet> Scheme sounds okay.. although it might be more limited.
17:08:48 <Razor-X> It is more limited, and there are some nasty differences between the two.
17:08:59 <Razor-X> Little nitpicky ones, I mean.
17:09:35 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I haven't deeply explored scheme, but my LISP code ran fine in a scheme interpreter.
17:09:55 <Razor-X> Also Scheme abstracts a bit more. Common Lisp makes a distinction between symbols and functions (defun and defparameter) while Scheme makes no distinction (define), there's scoping rules, and other such things. Depends on what you want to do.
17:10:24 <Razor-X> If you want to do multimedia-ish things, Common Lisp is your best bet. But if you want to build compilers/interpreters, either is fair game.
17:11:14 <Razor-X> Only because Common Lisp has more libraries now.
17:11:40 <Razor-X> Also, Common Lisp's standard is like insane-huge (bigger than C++, IIRC) and because of the hugeness it seems in constant flux.
17:13:01 <CakeProphet> Why distinguish between functions and symbols?
17:13:10 <ihope_> Between what and what?
17:13:17 <ihope_> I mean between functions and what?
17:13:30 <GregorR-W> Razor-X: ... C++'s standard library is not particularly "insane-huge"
17:13:43 <Razor-X> GregorR-W: Isn't the standard like 900 pages+?
17:13:57 * CakeProphet kind of likes how scheme doesn't distinguish between functions and symbols.
17:14:29 <GregorR-W> Because Sun has absolute constrol over it, they have no reason not to just add, add, add.
17:14:55 <Razor-X> I'll be reading that to take an AP test on my own this year, you know -_-''.
17:14:59 <RodgerTheGreat> it's great when you find what you need, but finding what you want can be a challenge...
17:15:14 <CakeProphet> A collaborative compilation of a crapload of modules.
17:15:54 <Razor-X> I knew nothing about Java and got a 60% on a practice test, getting my scope rules wrong and some Java-specific stuff wrong.
17:16:32 <Razor-X> And because I haven't done OOP in ages.
17:17:39 <RodgerTheGreat> I took a 5 day class as an intro to java, and then worked with it as my main language for a couple of months.
17:18:00 <RodgerTheGreat> pretty much everything syntax-wise on the essays you can figure out from the example code.
17:29:05 <Razor-X> Be a *real* man, manage your own bits and busses!
17:29:08 <GregorR-W> "Oooh, pointers scare me, I don't want to think about the fact that there's memory on my system *sobbles*"
17:29:35 <Razor-X> GregorR-W: Lots of languages don't deal with pointers. I don't think that's as much the issue.
17:29:57 * CakeProphet doesn't even know what a pointer does... cause he's never used one.
17:30:02 <GregorR-W> "I LOVE Object Oriented programming to the degree that the (totally ridiculous) code 'public static void main' makes me happy 8-D"
17:30:45 <Razor-X> C# can work with pointers if you want, but can Java?
17:31:19 <GregorR-W> Pointers are not an absolute necessity, but when they help, they /really help/.
17:31:38 <CakeProphet> It would make more sense to me that the language would just assume all variables that aren't specified otherwise are within the class namespace... rather than doing "self.variable" over and over.
17:31:44 <lament> pointers are useless in a language with implicit references
17:32:00 <lament> CakeProphet: doesn't Java do that?
17:32:10 <CakeProphet> *shrugs* I dunno.. I was referring to Python.
17:32:10 <Razor-X> I wonder why C didn't use implicit references.
17:32:23 <GregorR-W> Razor-X: Because C predates the concept.
17:32:24 <ihope_> lament: would Haskell be one of those implicit reference languages?
17:32:37 <Razor-X> GregorR-W: ALGOL had it, IIRC.
17:32:40 <lament> GregorR-W: Lisp predates C
17:32:44 <GregorR-W> Well, I should say, it predates the concept in that form of language.
17:32:57 <lament> ihope_: Haskell is a special case entirely
17:32:59 <GregorR-W> That is, compiled, sits-atop-the-asm languages.
17:33:02 <lament> ihope_: it doesn't really have variables at all
17:33:07 <GregorR-W> C is like a very high-level ASM *shrugs*
17:33:09 <lament> GregorR-W: Lisp was always compiled
17:33:17 <lament> well, practically always
17:33:18 <Razor-X> Lisp was compiled before C came along.
17:33:45 <GregorR-W> Lisp does not resemble the underlying architecture.
17:33:52 <Razor-X> There are no pointers in ASM.
17:33:59 <ihope_> Lisp and ASM are high-level versions of each other.
17:33:59 <lament> Razor-X: there sort of are.
17:34:06 <lament> Razor-X: the different addressing modes
17:34:10 <GregorR-W> Razor-X: There are, just without C's syntactic sugar.
17:34:13 <ihope_> Razor-X: how do you write into memory, then, eh?
17:34:27 <ihope_> What's its second argument?
17:34:38 <Razor-X> Yeah. I guess you'd call that a pointer.
17:35:01 <GregorR-W> A pointer is just a slight abstraction of an address.
17:35:22 <lament> assembly and forth are the only lanugages i'm aware of that use actual addresses to do stuff
17:35:25 <ihope_> They don't have to be slight.
17:35:57 <Razor-X> The language that went nowhere fast.
17:36:10 <lament> nah, people still use it for some things
17:36:29 <Razor-X> How can you retire ALGOL and keep Forth? Sheer madness.
17:36:52 <lament> Forth is pretty much the best language for extremely tiny architectures
17:37:38 <Razor-X> Forth isn't much better than ASM though.
17:38:17 <lament> Razor-X: it's like Lisp. It's what you make it to be
17:38:24 <lament> it's arbitrarily extendable
17:39:03 <ihope_> main() = interpret("...")
17:40:12 <lament> forth is perhaps the most esoteric of mainstream languages
17:40:18 <CakeProphet> The only reason Lisp is "extendible" is because all of its syntax is the same... it's really just giving you an illusionary effect of adding to the language.
17:40:58 <CakeProphet> If I wanted... I could add to Python by defining a bunch of functions.... same thing as using define in Lisp.
17:40:59 <lament> CakeProphet: define "illusionary"
17:41:04 <lament> CakeProphet: no, you couldn't.
17:41:15 <lament> CakeProphet: go ahead, add do...while loops to Python
17:41:19 <Razor-X> lament: Oh? I didn't know.
17:41:23 <CakeProphet> Well... all functions add to the language... but Lisp just seems to... add onto the syntax itself because the syntax is uniform.
17:41:48 <lament> CakeProphet: add do...while loops to Python using any syntax.
17:41:51 <Razor-X> CakeProphet: Make an ``if'' for me in Python.
17:42:26 <lament> doesn't have a do..while
17:42:34 <lament> doesn't have a goto either
17:43:47 <Razor-X> What do you think a do..while is?
17:44:03 <CakeProphet> do something while something is something?
17:44:27 <Razor-X> Only, the condition is checked *after* the loop.
17:44:51 <CakeProphet> Oh... that'd be even easier than making while.
17:45:04 <lament> CakeProphet: okay, so make it!
17:45:04 <Razor-X> That's why it's not a while..do loop, but a do..while loop.
17:45:13 <lament> CakeProphet: with functions, or with whatever you want
17:45:57 <Razor-X> I should add one thing to Glass then fork it and call it Rlass. Just for the effect.
17:46:17 <lament> i could do the same, and call it llass
17:46:20 <Razor-X> I disagree with your philisophy, GregorR-W!!!11!!!!
17:46:40 <GregorR-W> Razor-X: SOFTWARE IS /MEANT/ TO BE FREE YOU XEMACS USING SCUMPILE
17:46:45 <lament> CakeProphet: that never actually does the 'action'
17:46:53 <Razor-X> GregorR-W: I don't use XEmacs.
17:47:46 <lament> CakeProphet: Please. Read SICP :\
17:47:55 <CakeProphet> Because everything is the same syntax... it's capable of adding onto itself in ways other languages can't.
17:48:34 <Razor-X> Not because everything is the same syntax, but because you can change the language in the language.
17:48:36 <ihope_> Does this work? http://pastebin.ca/146454
17:49:11 <CakeProphet> "It can add to itself, because you can change the language in the language"
17:49:22 <lament> ihope_: 'act' doesn't do anything, act is already evaluated
17:50:16 <CakeProphet> Everything is a function.... if, while, everything.... because everything is a function, creating more functions adds to the everything... thus you've extended the language.
17:50:31 <CakeProphet> Also.. having everything as functions allows for more expressive statements than other languages.
17:50:33 <lament> CakeProphet: Not everything is a function in lisp.
17:50:35 <Razor-X> lament: Scheme has macros, right?
17:50:43 <lament> CakeProphet: Many many things aren't functions.
17:50:48 <lament> CakeProphet: do..while loops aren't functions.
17:50:57 <CakeProphet> lament, Every -statement- is a function...
17:50:58 <Razor-X> lament: 's what I thought.
17:51:06 <lament> CakeProphet: no, that's wrong
17:51:09 <Razor-X> CakeProphet: You haven't seen *anything* until you've seen macros.
17:51:12 <lament> CakeProphet: every statement is _not_ a function :)
17:52:20 <CakeProphet> (define x 2) is a function.... (cond (= x 2) (eat (and cookies milk) is a function... each () takes parameters and runs them through a bit of code to return a value... which is the definition of a function.
17:54:36 <CakeProphet> (func parameter (func parameter parameter)) it's a function/
17:54:49 <lament> CakeProphet: actually, of those things, only the last one is a function
17:55:21 <CakeProphet> Please -explain- instead of just saying "no it doesn't"
17:56:12 <lament> a function is an object that, when given a bunch of values, produces another value.
17:56:37 <lament> (or, possibly, fails to return)
17:57:15 <lament> (define x 2) doesn't produce any value.
17:57:35 <lament> instead it binds x to 2, which is not something functions do.
17:58:04 <lament> (define x 2) is not a function for the same reason that "x = 2" is not a function in Python.
17:58:13 <CakeProphet> Okay... define is a special form... it provides a means to define the rest of the everything... which is functions :D
17:58:27 <lament> yes, define is a special form
17:58:35 <lament> just as "def" is a special form in Python
17:58:44 <lament> however, it's not the only special form
17:58:55 <lament> for example, 'if' is also a special form (just as in Python)
17:59:12 <lament> and 'cond' is a special form
17:59:42 <lament> it can't be, and i'm pretty sure SICP covers why.
18:00:18 <CakeProphet> It -does- take input and return a value however.
18:00:40 <kipple_> doesn't (define x 2) return 2?
18:00:57 <ihope_> Pah, who needs define?
18:01:00 <lament> kipple_: i don't think it ought to.
18:01:15 <lament> CakeProphet: consider the Python code:
18:01:41 <lament> would that work? no :)
18:03:21 <lament> well, suppose foo() prints 'hello' and bar() prints world()
18:03:26 <lament> i mean prints "world" :)
18:03:58 <lament> then if (1==1, foo(), bar()) would print 'helloworld' BEFORE the function would even start evaluating!
18:05:11 <ihope_> It'd evaluate from the inside out?
18:05:23 <ihope_> How about this: if(1==1, foo, bar)()?
18:05:26 <lament> CakeProphet: because python would evaluate the arguments before evaluating the function.
18:05:45 <ihope_> That works, if I'm not mistaken...
18:06:26 <ihope_> foo(bar()) calls bar, then calls foo with the result.
18:07:55 <lament> but that's clearly not a substitute for being able to write
18:08:12 <lament> if(1==2, print "pigs can fly", return 42)
18:08:23 <lament> good luck doing that :)
18:08:29 <CakeProphet> Still not sure how this ties into if not operating like a function..
18:08:40 <GregorR-W> http://pastebin.ca/146481 < Gregor's idle musings on an interpreted programming language.
18:09:50 <lament> CakeProphet: 'if' only evaluates one of its arguments, instead of evaluating both
18:10:40 <lament> because all arguments to functions are evaluated before calling the function, at least in Scheme and in Python.
18:10:44 <lament> so if cannot be a function.
18:10:48 <lament> at least in Scheme and in Python.
18:11:11 <lament> (it can be in languages with wildly different semantics)
18:11:16 <CakeProphet> It returns results... that's really all you need to act like a function... it operates just like a function when you actually use it.
18:11:37 <kipple_> I think you guys just operate on different definitions of what a function is
18:12:26 <lament> kipple_: well, he only knows Python
18:12:36 <lament> and Python has call-by-value semantics
18:13:17 <CakeProphet> CakeProphet.Function = put(crap_in), get(crap_out)
18:13:33 <lament> what's that one language that had call-by-name? :)
18:14:43 <CakeProphet> Yeah... I'm sort of thinking in terms of Python... since I'm predominantly more accustomed to it... I consider every S-expression in lisp to return some kind of value to be used in the expression that contains it.
18:14:46 <ihope_> Okay, maybe the if function would take a condition and two tuples, and each tuple would contain a function and its arguments... eh.
18:15:10 <lament> ihope_: what if you want to do
18:15:16 <lament> if(1==2, print "pigs can fly", return 42)
18:15:29 <lament> ihope_: 'return 42' certainly can't be a function
18:15:31 <CakeProphet> Python would actually give youy a sybtax error for that one.
18:15:46 <CakeProphet> You can't do stuff like "print "pigs can fly"" as the parameter to a function.
18:15:59 <lament> CakeProphet: that's why you can't make if a function :)
18:16:18 <lament> ihope_: print is not a function in python
18:16:24 <lament> ihope_: it's a statement
18:16:37 <fizzie> Your snake-language is really silly.
18:16:47 <lament> fizzie: nah, not really
18:16:53 <lament> fizzie: it's mostly for debugging purposes anyway
18:16:58 <ihope_> It's PERFECT... but yeah, it's silly.
18:17:03 <fizzie> "print" being syntax sounds rather BASIC-y.
18:17:11 <lament> fizzie: i.e. print is not something you'd use in real code
18:17:22 <lament> fizzie: so might as well make it convenient :)
18:17:42 <fizzie> PHP's "echo" was probably special syntax, too, though.
18:17:44 <ihope_> What would you use in real code?
18:18:20 <lament> ihope_: probably some_file.write(stuff)
18:18:30 <lament> while some_file could be sys.stdout by default
18:19:14 <lament> print adds some formatting for 'easy' printing
18:19:21 <lament> which is great for debugging, not so great otherwise
18:19:43 <CakeProphet> Yeah... I mainly use print for debugging... and when I need to -see- what's happening.
18:19:45 <lament> i.e print 'a','b' prints "a b\n"
18:20:16 <CakeProphet> My IRC bot prints pretty much everything is receives from the connection... just so I know how to deal with crap.
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18:29:04 <ihope_> Pretty much everything?
18:29:14 <ihope_> Why not just plain everything?
18:29:29 <CakeProphet> Because in normal conversation not everything is said literally :D
18:29:43 <CakeProphet> It -does- print everything... usually in a nice perty formatted form.
18:30:08 <lament> normal conversation? in this channel?
18:30:25 <ihope_> Face it. We're normal.
18:30:38 <lament> ihope_: that makes me worried
18:30:39 <CakeProphet> If by channel you mean an IRC channel... then yes.
18:31:45 <GregorR-W> CakeProphet>If by channel you meanIRC channel... then yes.
18:32:09 <ihope_> There's a space between the last two slashes.
18:32:50 <ihope_> Python doesn't like it when I indent this thing.
18:32:53 <lament> better known as Gregor the Terrible
18:33:04 <lament> ihope_: Python hates you.
18:33:07 <ihope_> The first is okay, the second is not.
18:33:36 <lament> ihope_: that is correct.
18:34:09 <CakeProphet> Python does special stuff with indenting...
18:34:25 <lament> ihope_: because it's incorrect syntax.
18:34:47 <ihope_> Haskell doesn't care about indentation as much as Python does...
18:34:58 <lament> ihope_: that's why Haskell is a different language!
18:35:02 <ihope_> That means Python's better than Haskell, right?
18:36:03 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
18:36:05 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
18:36:23 <EgoBot> To use an interpreter: <interpreter> <program> Note: <program> can be the actual program, an http:// URL, or a file:// URL which refers to my pseudofilesystem.
18:36:27 <CakeProphet> So indenting that second line is saying that it's in a block that doesn't exist.
18:38:58 <ihope_> So does Python have for-loops?
18:39:37 <lament> ihope_: it has for-each loops which are called 'for'
18:39:59 <fizzie> Not many languages care about indentation as much as Python.
18:40:02 <ihope_> And what's the list of everything from 1 to 100?
18:40:03 <fizzie> FORTRAN does, in a way.
18:40:41 <lament> ihope_: everything is python is very heavily biased towards counting from 0
18:40:57 <lament> ihope_: so range(100) gives you the list from 0 to 99
18:41:01 <fizzie> There's a SRFI (or a SRFI proposal, or just crazy-talk) for indentation-sensitive Scheme, too.
18:41:12 <lament> fizzie: sounds like crazy-talk
18:41:22 <CakeProphet> Scheme would be annoying with forced identition.
18:42:59 <ihope_> Somehow I don't think the word "would" is really appropriate there.
18:43:19 <ihope_> So Python doesn't have infinite lists, eh?
18:43:46 <lament> ihope_: it has generators which are pretty much that
18:44:31 <CakeProphet> arrays are arrays that function like C arrays
18:44:46 <ihope_> So how do I make a generator?
18:44:48 <CakeProphet> Not sure what you use for lists... I guess tuples or something.
18:45:27 <ihope_> Oh, I can do without them.
18:46:52 <CakeProphet> In fact.. I kinda forgot what a generator does.
18:47:15 <ihope_> Sounds like an infinite list to me.
18:48:02 <ihope_> And I see that this Python thingamahoochie doesn't like tail recursion.
18:49:46 <ihope_> Where am I supposed to get my daily fix of tail recursion?
18:51:16 <fizzie> Where the Spec promises you proper tail recursion.
19:05:32 <ihope_> 't like recursive constants either?
19:06:52 <ihope_> Don't worry, I'm not putting them on planes.
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19:21:58 <GregorR-W> MOTHAFUCKIN SNAKES ON A MOTHAFUCIN PLANE
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19:33:44 <GregorR-W> http://pastebin.ca/146582 ... comments?
19:34:06 <GregorR-W> (Perhaps not the greatest example for comments ^^
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20:45:23 <ihope_> What, that was, like, ages ago...
20:45:40 <ihope_> Over an hour and a half.
20:45:42 <lindi-> RodgerTheGreat: which competition?
20:45:57 <ihope_> Is there more than one?
20:46:21 <RodgerTheGreat> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/2006_Esolang_Contest
20:51:18 <lindi-> RodgerTheGreat: how about mentionin that the entries have to be free software?
20:52:12 <lindi-> RodgerTheGreat: no it doesn't actually
20:54:16 <lindi-> RodgerTheGreat: it just talks about FSF approved licenses
20:55:10 <RodgerTheGreat> then, what would you define as "free software"? Public domain?
20:55:32 <lindi-> RodgerTheGreat: www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
20:56:12 <lindi-> RodgerTheGreat: maybe this is nitpicking but isn't that quite on-topic when we talk about esoteric languages ;)
20:57:45 <RodgerTheGreat> I suppose- I didn't really come up with the license regulations, though. If you ask me, people should just make their code public domain- I don't see all this concern with licenses. If you want to give stuff away, give it away.
20:58:14 <RodgerTheGreat> it only takes two words to explain the rights you want to give.
20:58:25 <lindi-> RodgerTheGreat: s/FSF approved license/FSF approved free software license/
20:58:57 <lindi-> RodgerTheGreat: public domain afaik does not exist in all countries in the same way it exists in US
21:42:13 <RodgerTheGreat> that's called the "my encrypted harddrive, bitch" license.
21:55:40 <GregorR-W> CakeProphet: It is neither C nor Perl.
21:55:46 <GregorR-W> I used C syntax highlighting just to do something.
21:55:52 <GregorR-W> It's the language I'm writing in my head.
21:56:16 <GregorR-W> And no, public domain does /NOT/ explain the rights.
21:56:25 <GregorR-W> In fact, I would really prefer that nobody submit under public domain.
21:57:17 <GregorR-W> A) You can't legally declare something to be public domain without paperwork, despite the common misconception.
21:57:36 <GregorR-W> B) Despite all logic, public domain implies a warrantee /which you cannot by any means remove/.
21:58:16 <ihope_> Isn't it spelled "warranty"?
21:58:45 <GregorR-W> Yeah, I always misspell that for some reason >_<
21:59:03 <ihope_> There's no such thing as a guaranty...
21:59:19 <ihope_> So what kind of warranty is it?
21:59:48 <GregorR-W> Now, mind you, it's hard to define "damages" in terms of software.
21:59:54 <ihope_> So writing a public domain computer virus would be a bad idea?
22:00:20 <GregorR-W> Presumably, if you write a computer virus, you are not licensing it to its users, so it falls under the same warranty.
22:00:40 <GregorR-W> Only with a license can you revoke that warranty (look at every software license ever)
22:01:06 <ihope_> Yeah, I guess you can't get away with a plain unlicensed virus or anything either.
22:01:26 <ihope_> So who can be liable for these damages?
22:01:59 <GregorR-W> For a virus, I don't know, but I believe for software the original writer and the distributor (if anybody can verify this, thanks)
22:02:05 <ihope_> What if the virus was written by another virus, which was in turn written by another virus, which came about accidentally?
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22:34:25 <GregorR-W> Somebody give me a fairly simple example program to write in my in-progress non-esoteric language ...
22:55:19 <ihope_> main = getContents >>= putStr
22:55:49 <ihope_> Wait, you're making a language?
22:56:05 <ihope_> Maybe a factorial program.
22:56:08 <GregorR-W> I started having ideas, trying to formalize them into something useful.
22:56:36 <ihope_> main = do x <- readLine; print (product [1..x])
22:57:17 <GregorR-W> I don't have stdlib defined yet, so I'll just look at the second part.
22:58:56 <lament> that's... a bit longer than ihope's version
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23:00:38 <GregorR-W> Well, if we assume that the "factorial" function is built in, we get:
23:00:55 <GregorR-W> x = (something to get the input); println(factorial(x));
23:01:17 <lament> your language seems kinda boring.
23:01:28 <GregorR-W> Well, you haven't seen any of it yet.
23:01:33 <ihope_> What does it have in the way of types?
23:01:41 <GregorR-W> It's dynamically typed, so it only has four "types"
23:01:56 <GregorR-W> Numerical scalar, string scalar, objects and functions.
23:02:09 <ihope_> Is while a function up there?
23:02:35 <ihope_> Whoops, time to abruptly... go.
23:02:38 <GregorR-W> Though both would have to be internally defined since they're sort of self-reliant.
23:02:47 <GregorR-W> You could override them if you were an idiot though ^^
23:03:34 <GregorR-W> I need an example that can show off its cool OO/functional hybrid abilities ...
23:03:44 <ihope_> While can be defined recursively.
23:05:52 <GregorR-W> Yeah, you could make a recursive while, that's true
23:06:04 <GregorR-W> I have no intent on goto right now, it'd be pretty nasty with how it works ...
23:07:21 <GregorR-W> while = (x of function, y of function) { if(x, { y(); while(x, y); }); };
23:07:33 <GregorR-W> while = (x of function, y of function) { if(x(), { y(); while(x, y); }); };
23:09:27 <GregorR-W> And for a purely functional approach, a function can also be defined by a single expression (with no ;)
23:09:28 -!- CakeProphet has quit (No route to host).
23:10:01 <GregorR-W> (That being said, this is not intended to be a purely functional language)
23:27:30 * pikhq had a very, very weird idea. . .
23:28:33 <pikhq> You know the notation of, say "f(x)=x^2" used in mathematics? I was just thinking. . . What if I could manage to prove that Turing complete?
23:29:05 <GregorR-W> Then you would have lambda calculus?
23:29:29 <pikhq> Funny. . . I thought Lambda Calculus used slightly different notation. . .
23:29:45 <pikhq> . . . Oh, you're right. That would be lambda calc, wouldn't it?
23:29:54 <GregorR-W> The fundamental idea is the same, some function = expression
23:30:28 <pikhq> Man difference being that I'd be using full, proper mathematical notation, instead of coming up with a new notation.
23:34:19 <pikhq> Instead of ? m n f x. m f (n f x), I could just do add(x,y)=x+y
23:34:41 <macgeek-> what do you guys think of this idea? http://farhnware.homelinux.com/misc/plain.txt
23:34:50 <GregorR-W> add = (x of float, y of float) { x + y };
23:35:26 <pikhq> It's pure math, and therefore untyped.
23:36:02 <GregorR-W> macgeek-: What's the difference between ? and )?
23:36:14 <GregorR-W> pikhq: Well, the "of's" are optional. add = (x, y) { x + y;
23:36:20 <GregorR-W> (/me's mind is still on his new lang :P )
23:38:26 <macgeek-> GregorR-W: ? outputs as a character, ) outputs the value; "x" versus "120"
23:39:04 <macgeek-> I was able to create Hello World, Cat, and 99 Bottles of Beer
23:42:40 <macgeek-> I seem to remember a language similar to Plain, but I couldn't find it on esolangs.org/wiki
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23:46:36 <macgeek-> I might be thinking of a mix of languages
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23:54:47 <CakeProphet> Behringer created a USB guitar... everyone laugh
23:59:28 <ivan`> i have a USB hard drive that's actually a 120V DC source
23:59:33 <ivan`> my friends buy new computers through me
00:00:39 <ivan`> http://www.fiftythree.org/etherkiller/ forever
00:02:00 <ivan`> if you're not a cisco tech
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00:31:57 <ihope_> <pikhq> It's pure math, and therefore untyped.
00:32:03 <ihope_> Who said math was untyped?
00:33:27 <ihope_> I use the Hindley-Milner type system with multi-parameter typeclasses, myself :-P
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00:35:02 <ihope_> Dude, it's Haskell's type system :-)
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00:38:46 <lament> haskell is not precisely math.
00:39:12 <lament> i think what pikhq meant by 'pure math', in any case, is the usual math notation.
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00:39:46 <lament> which is indeed untyped
00:40:55 <ihope_> I wouldn't call it untyped, since "if 3, then 0, otherwise 5" doesn't really mean anything.
00:41:06 <lament> that's not math notation, either.
00:41:16 <pikhq> I meant "the notation you could expect to see in your Algebra textbook", which would be the usual mathematical notation. . .
00:41:49 <GregorR-W> ihope_: The math notation for that would be a big curly brace with two expressions (0 and 5), with one saying "if 3" after it and the other saying "otherwise"
00:42:12 <ihope_> How about "pi implies 2"?
00:42:58 <lament> yeah, okay. operations are typed.
00:44:07 <lament> i guess it's too much to consider taht a "run-time-error"
00:44:32 <lament> pikhq: by the way, algebra is not turing-complete
00:45:11 <ihope_> You mean algebra doesn't allow first-class functions?
00:45:14 <lament> pikhq: very simple test: try making an algebraic statement that causes an infinite loop
00:45:48 <GregorR-W> That's not an infinite loop, that's just an invalid equation.
00:45:57 <GregorR-W> f(x) = f(x) MIGHT be an infinite loop (recursion)
00:46:14 <lament> x=x is neither an infinite loop nor an invalid equation
00:46:24 <GregorR-W> Well, it's a valid equation, but not a useful one :P
00:46:25 <lament> it's perfectly valid equation to which the answer is 'anything'
00:46:40 <lament> ihope_: and the answer to that one is 'no solutions'
00:47:07 <lament> if you have first-class functions obviously you have TC
00:47:17 <ihope_> So algebra doesn't have those?
00:47:34 <pikhq> f(x)=f(x+1);f(-oo)
00:47:42 <lament> the one in pikhq's textbook probably doesn't :)
00:48:04 <pikhq> I'm in Calc, actually. . .
00:48:05 <ihope_> pikhq: define negative infinity
00:48:18 <lament> pikhq: f(-oo) is not a valid expression
00:48:30 <lament> pikhq: but f(0) would work just as well
00:48:34 <pikhq> ihope_: Negative infinity, in math, is a number.
00:48:46 <lament> pikhq: not usually, no.
00:48:48 <pikhq> It's like saying "define 3".
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00:49:20 <lament> pikhq: negative infinite, in math, is not a number under most commonly used number systems.
00:49:31 <lament> pikhq: in particular, it's not an integer, and it's not a real.
00:49:31 <pikhq> oo = 1 + 1 + .. + 1
00:49:47 <ihope_> pikhq: define "..", then.
00:49:55 <pikhq> lament: Never said it was either an integer or a real number. Just said it was a number.
00:50:11 <pikhq> ihope_: Replace with an infinite amount of "1 +".
00:50:31 <lament> pikhq: two bricks and a dead cat is also a number in some number system.
00:50:48 <ihope_> pikhq: define an infinite amount.
00:51:03 <ihope_> lament: brick = 1, dead cat = i?
00:51:20 <lament> ihope_: i've never seen bricks that were equal to 1.
00:51:27 <lament> ihope_: bricks are usually bricks, not integers.
00:51:52 <pikhq> Fine. Infinity is a number which is greater than any real number.
00:52:02 <lament> pikhq: there're many numbers like that.
00:52:08 <pikhq> Negative infinity, therefore, is a number which is less than any real number.
00:52:21 <ihope_> pikhq: is negative infinity the highest such number?
00:52:50 <ihope_> If so, then we're getting somewhere.
00:52:51 <pikhq> lament: What? You can think of a finite number which is greater than any number in the set of real numbers?
00:53:08 <lament> pikhq: no, but i can think of many different infinite ones
00:53:39 <lament> for example, infinity, infinity+1, infinity+2... :)
00:53:46 * lament is having more fun than ihope_
00:54:22 <lament> i thought we went through all this in detail when we were discussing Banana Scheem.
00:54:27 <ihope_> That also implies that negative infinity plus one is negative infinity or below, since negative infinity plus one is either higher than negative infinity, or not higher.
00:54:46 <lament> ihope_: actually i think -oo + 1 is -oo
00:55:04 <ihope_> If negative infinity plus one is higher than negative infinity, it must either be a real number or something higher than a real number.
00:55:15 <lament> ihope_: it's like this:
00:55:56 <lament> addition isn't commutative with these guys...
00:56:50 <lament> ihope_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinal_arithmetic
00:57:09 <lament> ihope_: oo is 'omega' in that article
00:57:44 <ihope_> And negative infinity?
00:58:05 <lament> ordinals don't really have that
00:58:14 <lament> so you just take positive ones, and put a minus in front.
00:58:53 <lament> i doubt you could construct anything like reals from ordinals
00:59:03 <lament> like you can from integers
00:59:22 <fizzie> Why use oo when there's ∞?
00:59:49 <GregorR-W> fizzie: These people don't know unicode *heheheh*
00:59:58 <GregorR-W> Some of them probably see ∞ as a box X-D
01:00:19 <fizzie> Sounds like an abbreviation for "ass-hat".
01:00:44 <ihope_> Actually, make that "pch".
01:01:32 <lament> actually in the context of reals, infinity (oo, not omega) can indeed be a number
01:01:39 <lament> then you're using the extended number line
01:01:51 <lament> unfortunately (fortunately?) nobody uses the extended number line
01:02:01 <lament> it breaks some properties of the reals
01:02:43 * lament doesn't actually remember which ones
01:04:30 <ihope_> Well, can infinity be reduced to other terms?
01:04:55 <ihope_> It's just plain infinity?
01:05:13 <lament> yes, you define it as the limit of unbounded sequences
01:06:01 <macgeek> and how can you limit something that is unbounded?
01:06:24 <fizzie> With an infinitely large limit, of course. :p
01:07:50 <lament> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_real_line
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01:08:54 <fizzie> Nice disclaimer, that "Note that this is not a judgment about their "reality" or lack of it".
01:09:16 <fizzie> Probably to avoid the "Stop discrimination of infinities! They're just as real as you and me!" people.
01:09:29 <oerjanj> i wish to take exception to the idea that noone uses the extended real line, as I have used it.
01:09:48 <lament> oerjanj: for shits and giggles?
01:10:21 <oerjanj> it's a perfectly nice compact Hausdorff space.
01:11:14 <oerjanj> (note that "perfectly nice" are not intended as technical terms, though somebody surely has invented them)
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01:13:06 <oerjanj> you would probably want to look at surreal numbers, which combine reals and ordinals
01:13:37 <oerjanj> although those i don't know if anyone uses
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01:16:51 <fizzie> "The real numbers are the dependable breadwinner of the family, the complete ordered field we all rely on. The complex numbers are a slightly flashier but still respectable younger brother: not ordered, but algebraically complete. The quaternions, being noncommutative, are the eccentric cousin who is shunned at important family gatherings. But the octonions are the crazy old uncle nobody lets out of the attic: they are nonassociative."
01:18:26 <fizzie> But perhaps not so in family gatherings.
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01:19:04 <macgeek> RodgerTheGreat: you mean Plain?
01:19:20 <macgeek> needs some work though, I think
01:19:28 <RodgerTheGreat> I meant, did you create an interpreter, or just a spec?
01:21:34 <macgeek> I haven't gotten to the interpreter yet
01:21:45 <macgeek> I created an interpreter for TwoStep though
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01:24:06 <Razor-X> I just thought of a place to get good Trigonometry and Logarithm information for the contest.
01:24:16 <Razor-X> Of course, if I can think of it, so can the contestants.
01:24:29 <RodgerTheGreat> RealBASIC is a pretty nice language- I'm trying to decide wether I want to experiment with it in rosetta.
01:24:51 <RodgerTheGreat> Razor-X: if you say "wikipedia" as this source of information, I shall die laughing.
01:25:05 <Razor-X> Much more specific than that.
01:25:50 <Razor-X> Logarithm information too.
01:26:21 <Razor-X> Of course, that's for me to know and our contestants to never find out!
01:26:49 <RodgerTheGreat> you can always taunt them with it after the competition ends.
01:27:51 <RodgerTheGreat> The first thing I ever coded in RealBASIC was a BF interpreter.
01:28:29 <Razor-X> I think I shall taunt them.
01:28:51 <Razor-X> Nya nya! Good source of information! Nya nya!
01:30:56 <ihope_> Well, are you allowed to tell other committee members?
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01:43:02 <ihope_> Sorry, but you're perfectly sane, and only insane people are allowed in ##quantum.
01:47:53 * pikhq sets up Bombadil. . .
01:48:14 <Razor-X> So, what category are you entering, pikhq ?
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01:50:23 <pikhq> I'm thinking about the OISC.
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03:59:56 <RodgerTheGreat> hey, my buddies and I are trying to come up with a logo for our community website- would anyone care to stop by the concept gallery and vote your opinion? http://feesh.nonlogic.org/logocontest/gal.php
04:00:55 <GregorR> They all suck and your life is a failure.
04:02:15 <pikhq> You shall have your heart ripped out and eaten by the Aztecs.
04:02:20 <GregorR> It's the only one that has anything to do with logic :-P
04:02:24 <pikhq> I mean "Hi", as well.
04:03:17 <RodgerTheGreat> Being in this channel always makes me feel so warm and fuzzy inside.
04:03:39 <GregorR> My new language is defeating me :(
04:04:15 <GregorR> Abstracting all scopes to anonymous functions is making it difficult to figure out a return syntax that works properly and doesn't suck.
04:05:55 <GregorR> I've thought of some solutions, but all of them were either ugly or blackbox magic.
04:06:19 <GregorR> Can I get a "I dislike it" button for this logo thing?
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06:00:52 <Arrogant> GregorR, doesn't seem like enough information to go by :D
06:01:04 <GregorR> Yeah, I guess that's true...
06:01:13 <GregorR> I need to figure out how to flesh that out :-P
06:01:54 <GregorR> Well, Plof is a hybrid between OO and functional.
06:02:59 <GregorR> Yeah, I've seen a /bit/ of Io.
06:03:07 <Arrogant> All flow control is defined as functions
06:03:18 <GregorR> Yeah, that's true of Plof too.
06:03:22 <GregorR> A few more keywords though ;)
06:03:46 <Arrogant> I like Io but I can see several problems with it
06:03:49 <GregorR> Plof isn't intended to be estoeric.
06:04:22 <Arrogant> http://splattercoding.blogspot.com/ Here's some Io code and stuff.
06:04:44 <Arrogant> One of these days I plan on making something similar to Io, but fixing the fundamental problems with it, and call it Isis.
06:05:28 <GregorR> A.type = array(ref SomeMixins, ref A);
06:05:57 <Arrogant> How will you handle operator overloading?
06:06:04 <GregorR> Not sure whether I will yet.
06:06:14 <GregorR> I obviously can't overload + or =, I need those.
06:06:29 <GregorR> And if I can't overload +, it's ridiculous to overload -, /, *, +=, etc, etc.
06:06:35 <GregorR> So overloading would end up worthless :(
06:06:45 <GregorR> I do /want/ to be able to use overloading. I just don't know how yet.
06:06:56 <GregorR> One sec, logging in as GregorR-L
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06:10:03 <Arrogant> One of Io's problems is that, while functions are 1st-class
06:10:18 <Arrogant> Which means that you constantly have to use getSlot("funcname")
06:10:29 <Arrogant> Otherwise you end up setting off the function all over the place.
06:14:11 <GregorR-L> I have it so well defined in my head.
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06:16:35 <GregorR-L> I don't suppose anybody has any /specific/ points for me to look at?
06:16:43 <GregorR-L> Since it's too ill-defined on that page 8-D
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06:24:16 <GregorR-L> Hey look, it's an anonymous function!
06:26:02 <GregorR-L> What's a good example program >_> <_<
06:42:17 <anonfunc> anonfunc: hello is also accepted.
06:45:57 <thematrixeatsyou> anyone who declares it as Private Sub hello() As AnonFunc will be shot
06:46:47 <GregorR-L> hello = (x as function) { println("Hello to " + x()); }; hello(anonfunc);
06:47:44 <thematrixeatsyou> anyone who declares it as that will be awarded a cookie from GregorR
06:58:20 <GregorR-L> Oh come on, somebody must have a good example program :-P
06:58:27 <GregorR-L> Something a bit more complicated than the traditional examples.
06:58:33 <GregorR-L> But not too difficult to implement :-P
06:58:45 <GregorR-L> Not too difficult in a real language that is :P
07:22:28 <Arrogant> GregorR-L, why not a r-d-parser
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18:12:39 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: I missed you last night. Yeah, can you make the tutorial?
18:14:22 <RodgerTheGreat> for now, I managed to recover my sourcecode and type it up. If you give us a moment...
18:15:47 <Razor-X> I should learn TI-83 ASM and code a Unlambda compiler.
18:15:56 <RodgerTheGreat> it's pretty limited (one neuron, two inputs), and basically only good for being trained to simulate logic gates, but it's a useful example.
18:16:42 <RodgerTheGreat> I actually don't mind TI-BASIC- I'm pretty comfortable with BASIC variants in general.
18:17:20 <Razor-X> It's not that the language is a pain, I mean it's a pain to code it into the calculator with that horrible keypad :D.
18:18:57 <Razor-X> I think I'll make a neural net my first Scheme project.
18:19:11 <RodgerTheGreat> if nothing else, the 83+ offers a lot of really nice variable types.
18:19:28 <RodgerTheGreat> note that this app is more of a single neuron than an actual "net".
18:19:58 <Razor-X> The only thing I've coded on it (had the patience for, I mean) is a coin flipped (because I use coin flips a lot to make decisions and hate losing coins) and a dice roller to play D&D on the go.
18:20:35 <Razor-X> 3E and I play GURPS. I highly prefer GURPS.
18:20:53 <Razor-X> Of course, GURPS is just a *d6
18:21:06 <RodgerTheGreat> Gurps is pretty cool- I like the "atomic horror" supplement.
18:21:30 <Razor-X> I don't play GURPS with actual supplements. It's generally the DM's job.
18:21:45 <fizzie> TI-BASIC (at least in '86) would be few magnitudes more usable if it had any sort of local variables.
18:22:04 <Razor-X> I was thinking of trying out a GURPS game in a WWI setting where every character is in a different European country (like Diplomacy).
18:22:46 <RodgerTheGreat> I mostly DM, so I have a closet full of game books. Ironically, I tend to play pretty "fast and loose", so I've been known to come to a game with just a few sheets of notes and a D20. :)
18:22:59 <Razor-X> Notes? Bah, who needs notes? :P
18:23:21 * GregorR-W plays with just the bad random number generator built into his head.
18:23:26 <RodgerTheGreat> DM's need notes. I don't like memorizing dungeon layouts.
18:24:13 <Razor-X> I also like playing diceless modifications. Someone should make an actual diceless TRPG ruleset.
18:24:47 <RodgerTheGreat> having a physical D20 is primarily for the player's psychological benefit- it makes them feel like I'm bound by rules of probability, rather than having godlike power over the game.
18:25:47 <Razor-X> GURPS really uses dice well, but D20 systems (IMO) completely overuse dice.
18:27:49 <RodgerTheGreat> aside from combat, traps, poisons, etc. I rarely use dice.
18:28:12 <Razor-X> It also makes players feel more in control.
18:28:19 <Razor-X> (Because they do have more control.)
18:28:21 <RodgerTheGreat> most of my players know not to bother getting ranks in social skills, because I always make them roleplay bluff checks.
18:28:22 <fizzie> Misread "diceless TRPG ruleset" => "dickless TRPG ruleset".
18:28:25 <Razor-X> Depending on your diceless system, of course.
18:28:56 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. naked RPG's. "No barriers between you and your character". lol
18:29:02 <kipple_> what's a TRPG? how is it different from an RPG?
18:29:10 <Razor-X> Your skin doesen't count as a barrier?
18:29:26 <Razor-X> In contrast with a CPRG, a Computer RPG.
18:29:50 <RodgerTheGreat> most "RPG's" I've played on the computer are insanely tedious.
18:30:38 <kipple_> I've played WoW a bit, and it was fun, but not like a real (read: tabletop) RPG
18:30:42 <Razor-X> FF6j, Chrono Trigger, Vagrant Story (stretching the RPG definition), and Tales of Symphonia are the best I've played.
18:31:00 <Razor-X> Diablo is a great LAN-game-in-5-minutes game.
18:31:32 <Razor-X> And I can't stand MMORPGs.
18:31:44 <RodgerTheGreat> Even neverwinter nights gets really boring to me after a while, though- it's pretty much all about combat and leveling up.
18:32:26 <kipple_> same can be said about regular D&D though
18:32:27 <Razor-X> MMOs just reward the amount of time you put into it. Most of them are horribly boring in the first 10 levels.
18:32:44 <RodgerTheGreat> and the only way to be good is playing insane amounts- yeah.
18:33:10 <kipple_> true, but MMOs also depend on how you play it
18:33:47 <Razor-X> I haven't found any MMO that can be fun *without* at least an initial investiture of 40 hours+.
18:33:49 <RodgerTheGreat> kipple: less so. computer RPG's are significantly more "directed" and "specific goal oriented" than tabletops.
18:34:31 <kipple_> WoW was a lot of fun the first 40 hours. it doesn't get more fun the more you play (in my opinion at least)
18:35:03 <kipple_> you just do the same thing anyway
18:35:07 <Razor-X> That and you also need people in the game.
18:35:30 <Razor-X> If you don't find a guild/group, you're going to have no fun until a moderately high level.
18:36:04 * RodgerTheGreat enjoys playing games solo or as a pair more than in a big group.
18:36:07 * kipple_ has thought about implementing a WoW BF interpreter
18:36:21 <RodgerTheGreat> my idea of the ultimate MMO would be something like Garry'sMod.
18:36:59 <Razor-X> They're a lot more free-form too, and most of them allow having fun at any level and any time dedication.
18:37:36 <RodgerTheGreat> the MUD's that focus too much on combat tend to have the same problem as normal MMO's, though.
18:41:05 <GregorR-W> Then doing a BF interpreter in it would probably be fairly trivial ;)
18:41:07 <kipple_> haven't really looked into it thoug
18:42:23 <kipple_> the biggest task would be to read the WoW API :)
18:44:28 <kipple_> anyway, since I have lots of way more interesting esoteric projects on hold too, it will never happen
18:45:10 <lament> wow sounds kinda neat, but certainly not neat enough to pay for it.
18:51:47 <lament> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/15/Graduale_Aboense_2.jpg
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19:05:42 * lament tries learning haskell, for the 238947th time
19:18:10 <Razor-X> You don't know Haskell?!!!111///!!!
19:18:49 <Razor-X> Then why are you trying to learn it again?
19:59:31 <lament> hah, never saw this before:
19:59:33 <lament> http://halogen.note.amherst.edu/%7Ejdtang/scheme_in_48/tutorial/overview.html
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21:20:02 <RodgerTheGreat> reverse-engineered as well as I could from my old TI-83+ listing. Hopefully, this will do what you need.
21:23:36 <Razor-X> I found a bit of material, and it seems like a lot of work :P
21:24:44 <Razor-X> Well, don't you have to make the thing retrain itself?
21:24:57 <Razor-X> It would make a great recursive function.
21:25:11 <RodgerTheGreat> when neurons only have to train themselves, it's easy as illustrated in my tut.
21:25:53 <RodgerTheGreat> it gets complicated when neurons also have to train the neurons that forward information to them.
21:26:20 <RodgerTheGreat> single-layer nets are more limited, BUT you can do OCR with them.
21:29:07 <Razor-X> Then why is a neural net difficult in a Esolang?
21:29:30 <RodgerTheGreat> because it's hard to tell people what you expect them to do without literally handing them an algoritm.
21:29:50 <Razor-X> You mean the training algorithm?
21:29:57 <Razor-X> (I haven't looked too deeply into it just yet.)
21:30:26 <RodgerTheGreat> pretty much every neural net system works the same, aside from the training algorithm.
21:31:06 <RodgerTheGreat> evaluation is always just the sum of inputs multiplied by their respective weights compared against a threshold to result in a boolean value.
21:31:30 <RodgerTheGreat> very much like how triggering works in an actual neuron (hence the name)
21:36:41 <Razor-X> One thing I saw showed the correlation between graphing and the Neural Net equation.
21:36:55 <Razor-X> That's pretty nifty, in fact.
21:37:16 <Razor-X> You can easily emulate a computer with a Neural Net the moment you can make a NAND gate with it.
21:37:59 <Razor-X> It would've been nifty seeing an OISC implemented in Neural Net fashion.
21:40:14 <RodgerTheGreat> OR, you could build a simulator powerful enough to try to teach the net to function that way (extremely hard)
21:40:31 <RodgerTheGreat> just simulating a net is easy, training it can be hard.
21:43:03 <RodgerTheGreat> hand-made neural nets could themselves qualify as an esolang.
21:44:45 <Razor-X> Why would that be difficult?
21:45:16 <Razor-X> Since we're only working with binary here, training should be dead simple.
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22:05:47 <RodgerTheGreat> you're oversimplifying this- OUTPUT is binary, but input, weighting, and evaluation should all be as close to analog as possible (floats). They can pretend to be some kinds of gates, but neurons != logic gates.
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22:06:19 <Razor-X> Huh? Then how can it be a logic gate?
22:07:23 <Razor-X> I was assuming that the edges previous to this have been already trained to make sure that it's only binary.
22:07:46 <Razor-X> If you assume that, then the training becomes a lot easier.
22:08:12 <GregorR-W> http://www.codu.org/plof/index.php?title=IfFormat < Takin' votes :P
22:09:15 <Razor-X> Even in a normal electrical circuit, you can hook up different inputs to something that only takes 0 and 1 and the result will come out undefined.
22:10:30 <Razor-X> Most people assume that the ``ultimate input'' of a microprocessor (being some code in some sort of ROM) is known to be 0 and 1, and doesen't produce any undefined effects.
22:12:46 <Razor-X> (Or you're supposed to design the FSM such that even given unknown input it should maintain a set of defined states.)
22:13:25 <Razor-X> GregorR-W's on other servers.
22:14:20 <Razor-X> It stands for War. We all know that.
22:14:45 <kipple_> No, no it stands for 'Wacko'
22:15:51 <lament> i still think it stands for Wacation
22:16:05 <Razor-X> Luckily, being OISC, the FSM will be relatively small.
22:16:05 <lament> so we know when GregorR-W is not at work.
22:16:24 <Razor-X> That fiend. Making us believe he's doing something useful.
22:17:33 <Razor-X> I say we tell Intel that he uses AMD at home!
22:18:08 <Razor-X> That just shows how badly the corporate machine works in America.
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22:21:18 <Razor-X> GregorR-W: Uggh. You're going to make people type out ``function'' and ``reference'' and ``string'' ?
22:21:51 <GregorR-W> You'd prefer "func", "ref", and .... "str"?
22:22:14 <Razor-X> Why do you think we call it ``sin'' and not ``sine'' ?
22:22:24 <GregorR-W> Razor-X: Because using math is a "sin"
22:22:29 <kipple__> how about symbols like !, @ and $ ?
22:22:47 <GregorR-W> kipple__: How about this isn't Perl and never will be (thankfully)
22:23:48 <lament> funktsiya, ssilka & stroka
22:24:26 <GregorR-W> http://www.codu.org/plof/index.php?title=LongWords
22:25:16 <Razor-X> Agh, that's a pain to type.
22:25:34 <Razor-X> Think of the poor QWERTY users, Gregor. The poor QWERTY users.
22:26:03 <lament> who the fuck uses qwerty anyways?
22:26:26 <lament> GregorR-W: it already has 'var' and not 'variable'
22:26:35 <GregorR-W> lament: Yeah, I noted that inconsistency >_>
22:26:37 <Arrogant> GregorR-W: Depends. "arr" is stupid.
22:26:56 <GregorR-W> OK, who prefers long words (perhaps except "arr")?
22:27:00 <Razor-X> Let's name ``references'' to ``arr''.
22:27:16 <Razor-X> Because that's what I think of when I think of pointers and references.
22:27:37 <Arrogant> Razor-X, not his fault you've got crossed wires
22:27:44 <Arrogant> GregorR-W, I prefer short words
22:27:51 <Arrogant> Because array is plenty short.
22:28:16 <GregorR-W> I guess it'll be at int float str obj func array ref global next var
22:28:40 <Razor-X> Because functions are fun?
22:29:40 <Razor-X> That way, music groupies who like the languages can use it as a synonym with ``Funk''.
22:29:56 <Razor-X> See? Something for everyone.
22:30:01 <Arrogant> GregorR-W, so no literal arrays?
22:30:22 <GregorR-W> Arrogant: Not at the moment, I may add a syntax for it but I'm sort of out ot symbols XD
22:30:42 <GregorR-W> The "array" function just generates an array from its parameters, so it's functionally similar.
22:30:59 <Arrogant> Well, yeah, depends on how often you're going to be creating an array
22:31:08 <Arrogant> Actually, bringing that up, why array over list?
22:31:33 <Razor-X> Are you going to add in an FFI later?
22:31:39 <GregorR-W> Well, I guess I was thinking about the internal representation ...
22:32:14 <GregorR-W> Razor-X: It's pretty much a necessity ...
22:32:17 <Razor-X> Or is this going to be completely compatible with C, like D?
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22:33:02 <Razor-X> Port ncurses! Port ncurses!
22:33:48 <Razor-X> How is the Parrot intermediary language?
22:34:17 <GregorR-W> It's sort of like assembly, but a bit more ... Idonno, suitable for dynamic typing and other funky features like that.
22:34:35 <Razor-X> I like Arrogant's summary better.
22:34:36 <Arrogant> You'll have to wait a long time before it becomes anything resembling useful.
22:34:56 <GregorR-W> Hm, that's unfortunately probably true >_>
22:35:08 <GregorR-W> The alternative is fairly bleak in terms of speed.
22:36:21 <Arrogant> Which I believe is pretty fast
22:36:36 <Arrogant> (But I only say that because that's what the _site_ says)
22:37:14 <Arrogant> Yeah, I was just thinking that
22:38:08 <GregorR-W> Neko seems awfully high-level to use as an intermediate language ...
22:38:22 <lament> GregorR-W: your language must not be terribly original :)
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22:38:54 <Razor-X> lament: It's not Esoteric.
22:38:58 <GregorR-W> lament: OMG, it has some of the same basic types as EVERY DYNAMICALLY TYPED LANGUAGE EVER
22:39:23 <Razor-X> Why do people have an infatuation with the Japanese word for cat? -_-''
22:39:51 <lament> GregorR-W: that's not true.
22:39:54 <lament> GregorR-W: it doesn't.
22:40:07 <Arrogant> Razor-X, people have an infatuation with the Japanese everything
22:40:14 <GregorR-W> OK people, exaggeration for the sake of emphasis.
22:40:24 <lament> Razor-X: because they're idiots.
22:40:38 <Razor-X> Neko's good and all IN JAPANESE.
22:41:10 <Arrogant> Razor-X, the creator of Neko is German I think
22:41:22 <Arrogant> Not American, like most japfags
22:41:47 <lament> Razor-X is a japfag and she's not american.
22:42:03 <Arrogant> Razor-X, taken from the CAT icon, I doubt it
22:42:13 <Arrogant> (Even if its not the same cat)
22:42:24 <GregorR-W> "japfag" ... slightly less, erm, dignified term for "rice queen"? :P
22:43:07 <Arrogant> GregorR-W, more like, fanboy/fangirl for all things japanese, "otaku"
22:43:10 <Razor-X> I also know French, for school and all.
22:43:50 <Razor-X> Estas mia kato! Mi amas mian kato! En tutan tempon, mi volas ke mi ekzistas apud mian katon!
22:45:08 <GregorR-W> How to emulate a conversation with lament:
22:45:24 <GregorR-W> <lament> That's stupid/ugly/uninteresting/poorly done.
22:45:38 <lament> quero ser ao lado de meu gato por toda minha vida
22:45:53 <lament> GregorR-W: well, it's true
22:46:04 <Arrogant> Yeah, if you want it done right, do it yourself
22:46:09 <lament> GregorR-W: i don't say that about things that are clever, beautiful, interesting and well done
22:46:20 <lament> for example i don't diss Haskell :)
22:46:37 <Razor-X> I know only enough French to translate Wikipedia articles to English, Esperanto, and Japanese though, not that I'm too sad.
22:47:31 <Razor-X> Well, if I can understand the French, I can translate it into any language.
22:47:51 <lament> translate into toki pona.
22:47:57 <Razor-X> I should learn that some day.
22:48:03 <GregorR-W> I only know the following español: ¡USTÉD ES EN LA EEUU! ¡HABLE INGLÉS!
22:48:29 <Razor-X> I know a lot of Spanish because it's spoken very often around here.
22:48:34 <GregorR-W> Erm, got a bit excited with the accent, take it off the É :P
22:49:40 <Razor-X> There's this odd local rap song about gasoline that's all the rage.
22:50:09 <Razor-X> Gasoline is: Smelly, not very cost effective, keeping us in a previous age. Nothing to write a rap song about.
22:50:25 <Razor-X> Oh, it's written in Spanish too :P
22:54:34 <Razor-X> Has anything even been written for NekoVM?
22:55:23 <lament> probabyl some weird anime thing.
22:55:24 <Arrogant> There's a language called Haxe
22:56:02 <Arrogant> And note that I didn't suggest Neko, I merely brought it up as possibly more practical than Parrot
22:56:54 <lament> it can't work with files
22:57:40 <Razor-X> Aren't there two intermediary languages, the Parrot ASM and the intermediary language?
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22:58:02 <Arrogant> Which compiles to Parrot bytecode
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22:58:56 <GregorR-W> File I/O, integration into the host system, there are a plethora of reasons NOT to use z-machine.
22:59:19 <Arrogant> Razor-X, it's not very feature complete
22:59:33 <Razor-X> Oh, so we end up going straight to PASM?
23:00:02 <GregorR-W> I think PASM ought to be feature-complete enough as a target platform *shrugs*
23:00:05 <jix> well compiling c code includes a lot of intermediate steps too...
23:00:25 <GregorR-W> jix: Usu C->ASM->relocatable object file(s)->executable
23:00:27 <Razor-X> But C code is a project how many years old?
23:00:35 <jix> GregorR-W: no
23:00:45 <jix> you're missing some steps....
23:00:46 <GregorR-W> Well, there's a preprocessor there ...
23:00:59 <jix> well c uses 2 different tree representations...
23:01:01 <GregorR-W> C->preprocessed C->Intermediate language->ASM->
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23:01:33 * GregorR-W knows nothing about gcc internals.
23:01:38 <jix> GregorR-W: yes.... one is a stricter version of the first IIRC
23:01:52 <jix> the first one is more c like the 2nd one more asm like
23:01:58 <jix> and there are optimizations at each stage...
23:02:04 <jix> so it makes sense probably...
23:02:05 <Razor-X> So Parrot was based around GCC?
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23:02:27 <Razor-X> But if PIL is featureful enough, you don't need PASM.
23:02:54 <GregorR-W> So you do /need/ PASM, you just don't need to see it.
23:02:58 <Razor-X> I mean, you don't directly need to work with PASM.
23:03:18 * pikhq hugs Bombadil. . .
23:03:38 <lament> GregorR-W: just compile it to Python.
23:03:54 <lament> GregorR-W: you can probably do it with sed :)
23:04:13 <GregorR-W> You seem to think that this language is not fundamentally different from other languages. In this belief, you are incorrect.
23:04:28 <lament> well, i looked at the specs page
23:04:36 <lament> there's nothing there to show otherwise
23:04:37 <GregorR-W> It's incomplete, to say the least :P
23:04:59 <GregorR-W> I'm workin' on it ... not good at specs X_X
23:05:09 <lament> so what are you gonna add, that's fundamentally different from other languages? :)
23:05:25 <GregorR-W> Well, for one, the object orientation I've already added is fundamentally different.
23:06:17 <GregorR-W> Secondly, the scope, how scopes are built, and how scopes are passed in function pointers.
23:06:25 <GregorR-W> Erm, s/function pointers/functions/
23:06:40 <lament> from your description, the object model seems to be much like javascript's
23:08:12 <lament> the scope passing seems interesting
23:08:14 <GregorR-W> Mmmmmmmm ... there are similarities. That may be the closest, but it's not really the same.
23:08:37 <lament> can't think of anything that has that
23:09:04 <lament> (but you can do it in python very easily)
23:10:20 <jix> OMGLOLIHASIT!
23:42:57 <Razor-X> I think I'll learn Scheme and then simulate an adder circuit with a neural net written in Scheme.
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00:36:22 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: Not in ERC.
00:37:19 <Razor-X> /clear performs the same function as C-u 0 C-l.
00:37:40 <Razor-X> (Which is to center the current line with C-u x lines above it, here being 0.)
00:47:06 <GregorR-W> The only tool ELispOS doesn't have a good implementation of is a text editor :(
00:49:30 <pikhq> It implements Emacs (from the MIT AI Lab community) and Vi (from the old UNIX tradition).
00:49:47 <lament> it doesn't really implement vi
00:49:53 <lament> and the emacs implementation really sucks.
00:50:05 <pikhq> That starts up Vi.
00:50:12 <lament> pikhq: i've tried that.
00:50:16 <pikhq> And the Emacs implementation really rocks.
00:50:40 <lament> pikhq: by which i mean, it doesn't emulate vi properly.
00:51:08 <pikhq> In fact, it's used universally in ElispOS (and is therefore is the UI guidelines in ElispOS).
00:51:26 <pikhq> lament: The Emacs implementation, though, really kicks ass. . .
00:52:06 <lament> GregorR-W: most of it is writen in elisp
00:52:18 <lament> maybe even all of it, not sure
00:52:21 <pikhq> Some of the functions it calls are written in C by necessity.
00:52:35 <lament> the emacs close in Scheme was certainly in Scheme, in its entirety
00:53:05 <pikhq> Most of the C code in Emacs, though, is just for the sole purpose of implementing Elisp.
00:57:33 <pikhq> It's like complaining that Dimensifuck's implementation isn't pure Python because the Python interpreter is written in C. . .
00:57:48 <Razor-X> Does the Scheme clone have an ELisp interpreter?
00:58:41 <pikhq> If so, then most of their work was cut out for them.
00:59:09 <Razor-X> Although why ELisp still uses ``car'' and ``cdr'' escapes me.
00:59:27 <Razor-X> I vote for usage of ``cdadr''!
00:59:33 <pikhq> Tradition, no doubt.
01:00:01 <Razor-X> What's the tradition in cdadr?
01:00:39 <Razor-X> One Lisp book I saw a while back actually attempted to teach the correct way to pronounce those weird combinations.
01:01:39 <pikhq> I meant tradition for "car" and "cdr". . . -_-'
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01:03:48 <Razor-X> Don't tell me cdadr isn't tradition :P
01:04:23 <Razor-X> It's one of those examples of When Tradition Goes Wrong.
01:04:29 <Razor-X> Like WWI, only less bloody.
01:05:14 <lament> Razor-X: cdadr might be ugly, but there's no other way
01:05:29 <lament> Razor-X: okay, now what would cdadr be?
01:05:41 <Razor-X> A combination of firsts and rests.
01:05:56 <Razor-X> Well, just lump them. You don't have to make one keywoard :P
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14:02:25 <pikhq> Remember: the Internet is not a bunch of dump trucks.
14:02:33 <pikhq> It is a series of *tubes*.
14:03:17 <ihope> No, you got it backwards. http://abigtruck.ytmnd.com/
14:03:45 <pikhq> Now, in reality, I can think of a much better analogy.
14:03:56 <pikhq> Maybe like, oh, I dunno. . . A net? A web?
14:27:44 <GregorR> Remember, the Internet is a metaphysical construct composed of a vast number of computers operating on the same protocol.
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14:34:33 <ihope> Not TCP, not UDP, and certainly not SMTP...
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18:25:45 <ihope> GO AHEAD. I DON'T CARE.
18:26:15 <GreyKnight> I like this one: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Emoticon
18:32:22 <GregorR-W> I guess I could rewrite that script *shrugs*
18:33:29 <Razor-X> Maybe I should start writing a blog and labor under this false illusion that other people care about what I do in my life.
18:34:06 <lament> only if you put naked pics there.
18:34:17 <GregorR-W> While you're doing that, post comments on MySpace so the morons^H^H^H^H^H^Hscumfucks on there can feel good about their putrid lives.
18:34:17 <Razor-X> See, no naked pics. So no-one will care.
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18:34:32 <lament> well, that's your own fault then
18:47:56 <pikhq> MySpace + intelligence = undefined.
18:49:48 <ihope> What is the type of MySpace?
18:50:53 <ihope> And what is the definition of intelligence?
18:54:02 <lament> what is the meaning of life?
19:03:55 <ihope> Life: noun. 1. The state that precedes death and follows birth or conception.
19:04:32 <Razor-X> Wait, so that means you aren't alive when you're in the womb?
19:05:13 <Razor-X> Is organic material considered alive?
19:05:30 <Razor-X> Don't hurt the widdle Carbon atoms!
19:05:42 <Razor-X> Enough of that holy war starter :P
19:06:52 * GreyKnight wonders if there's any language in the wiki that should *not* be in Category:Turing_tarpits :-)
19:07:56 <ihope> Ones that aren't Turing-complete.
19:15:18 <Razor-X> Is Glass considered a tarpit?
19:15:21 <lament> GreyKnight: for example Smallfuck and Smetana
19:15:32 <lament> oh, not turing-tarpits?
19:15:36 <lament> befunge is not a tarpit
19:16:02 <lament> lots of languages aren't tarpits
19:20:05 <Razor-X> But the Citizens of Esome love making tarpits.
19:22:45 <ihope> How can that be abbreviated Esome?
19:23:53 <Razor-X> Read the logs and grep them for middle ages and BF and you'll find out where the analogy arose from.
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20:46:45 <GreyKnight> stopping a piet program is kinda awkward
20:47:10 <GreyKnight> It'd be nice if there was an actual command for that... it's almost tempting to deliberately cause an error
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20:51:24 <RodgerTheGreat> well, errors were used as a way to halt on the Z1 and Z3 computers, way back in the day.
21:06:28 <Razor-X> I'm liking Scheme more than I liked Common Lisp.
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21:20:52 <GregorR-W> In case you couldn't guess, it compiles Plof to JS.
21:22:41 <Razor-X> That looks utterly esoteric and useless. I like it.
21:23:08 <GregorR-W> Well, it's esoteric in that nobody knows about it :P
21:23:25 <GregorR-W> It's a way to produce portable executables ...
21:25:53 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR: I don't see an immediate use, but DAMNED if that isn't cool.
21:26:31 <GregorR-W> I'm tellin' yah, when my OO-functional hybrid is done, I'll write some nifty programs and you'll say "WOW THAT'S NIFTY GREGOR OMGROFL"
21:27:00 <RodgerTheGreat> it's already nifty, but I'm holding back on the omgrofl
21:28:10 <GreyKnight> "I don't see an immediate use" <-- I imagine that goes for most of the programming projects discussed here :o)
21:28:34 <RodgerTheGreat> well, yeah. It doesn't lose any points for that as an esolang.
21:28:42 <Razor-X> Like ROFL my Waffle, but it makes me look even stupider.
21:29:42 <Razor-X> Add in Regexps and some ub3r-parsing abilities, and you'll have converts really quickly GregorR-W.
21:29:53 <Razor-X> Some of 'em may even say OMGROFL OR LOLWFFL.
21:29:59 <GregorR-W> Razor-X: Thou shalt not build regexp's into a base language :P
21:30:25 <RodgerTheGreat> overall, a very interesting interpretation of the word "compiler".
21:30:25 <GregorR-W> My #1 goal is absolute, 100% internal consistency.
21:30:27 <Razor-X> Add in a library and don't make other coders do the coding for that :P
21:30:39 <RodgerTheGreat> I ought to try something like that for another esolang...
21:31:07 <Razor-X> I was gonna try making a Glass interpreter in Scheme.
21:31:28 <GregorR-W> I was gonna try stabbing glass into my eye.
21:31:43 <Razor-X> Then I get to go to Gregor and say NOW J00 DONT HAVE NO MONOPOLY WITH THAT LANGUAGE. VIVE LE OPEN SOURCE. LOLWFFL.
21:32:05 <GregorR-W> Dood, l'interpretere es source d'open.
21:32:53 <Razor-X> Mais, je vais dir.... TAIS TOIS.
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21:33:29 <RodgerTheGreat> if I ever succeed in specifying synthesys, I shall create a PHP-based javascript compiler for it.
21:33:50 <Razor-X> Or maybe I should just fork Glass and call it RLass.
21:34:25 <Razor-X> Perverted geek programmers will respect Lass more than Glass.
21:34:54 <GregorR-W> Do you have such huge problems with Glass that you have to fork()? :P
21:35:26 <Razor-X> You weren't going to cut yourself?
21:35:51 <Razor-X> So is that eye not crying, or did you destroy it or something?
21:36:03 <Razor-X> ;_V, the right eye is dripping blood while the left is crying.
21:36:40 <GregorR-W> ;_* < gouged his left eye out. It hurts.
21:37:02 <RodgerTheGreat> so, Razor-X- have you built yourself a neural-net simulator?
21:37:18 <oerjanj> what is this, an Emoticon/Malbolge hybrid?
21:37:40 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: I should. I was thinking of an Esolang based on that.
21:38:03 <Razor-X> It was going to be a simple adder neural net, only I'd have to find some alternative to the XOR gate a conventional adder uses.
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21:38:37 <Razor-X> But you can simulate XOR with other gates.
21:39:15 <GreyKnight> You can't do XOR with one layer of neurons, but with two you can
21:39:29 <Razor-X> Yeah, two neurons, exactly.
21:39:38 <Razor-X> It's trivial to prove why you can't do it with two.
21:41:47 <Razor-X> But I do think simulating logic gates with neural nets is pretty stupid.
21:41:58 <RodgerTheGreat> but building a computer with neurons simulating simple gates kinda ignores their true advantages (like more than two inputs)
21:42:37 <Razor-X> Well, you can use it to simulate quantum computing without your fancy Hadamard Gate.
21:42:38 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:42:48 <Razor-X> (Although I'll miss saying the word ``Hadamard'' :( )
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21:51:34 <Razor-X> I never want to give up Backus-Naur :3
21:52:26 <Razor-X> It's an awesome set of names.
21:52:45 -!- lament has set topic: #hadamard, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - for brainfuck-specific discussion, go to ##brainfuck - competition: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/2006_Esolang_Contest.
21:55:28 <RodgerTheGreat> could prove rather #Esoteric for some people. [insert rimshot here]
21:58:00 <GregorR-W> (Which is really gnarly, but anyway)
21:58:15 <Razor-X> Nah. Backus-Naur sounds like a Klingon name, or something.
22:04:35 <Razor-X> You're pronouncing ``Naur'' to unpoetically.
22:04:50 <Razor-X> This isn't Eye-Rack, mmmkay?
22:06:38 <oerjanj> well, Back-Snower, then...
22:08:27 <oerjanj> hm, Naur appears to be danish. that _rarely_ implies poetical pronunciation.
22:10:41 <Razor-X> I can't think of any romanization to describe how I pronounce ``Naur''.
22:11:04 <Razor-X> Well, the EU's culture is slowly homogeonizing too, no matter how much they deny it.
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22:15:41 <oerjanj> the n in danish is fairly normal. i don't think au is a common danish diphthong.
22:16:15 <oerjanj> they tend to use ou instead.
22:16:45 <oerjanj> and the r is in the back of the throat, without a trill I think.
22:17:07 * GregorR-W ties his tongue in a knot trying to trill at the back of his throat.
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22:17:24 <GregorR-W> Yeah, I'd say probably no trill :P
22:17:26 <RodgerTheGreat> does that mean it'd be like "Nough"? (english prounciation thereof)
22:18:08 <oerjanj> scottish pronunciation maybe?
22:18:34 <oerjanj> (not that i know what that would be)
22:18:44 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, I think we're thinking about this on the same wavelength- I know what you mean.
22:19:34 <oerjanj> because danish r might be like a German/Scottish ch, except voiced and softer
22:19:51 <oerjanj> or like a German r except with muchless trill
22:20:18 <oerjanj> hm, do the germans trill, anyhow?
22:21:09 <oerjanj> anyhow, in that general phonetic neighborhood...
22:25:02 <GregorR-W> http://www.codu.org/plof/index.php?title=Plof%20Spec (search "set math")
22:25:26 <oerjanj> ok, i think you really may get quite close by pronouncing it as if it were German, which is might originally be anyhow.
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22:28:17 <GregorR-W> RodgerTheGreat's connection rocks.
22:29:38 <RodgerTheGreat> I'll have a better connection when I move out of this hotel tomorrow.
22:32:52 <GregorR-W> It's the largest packet that can fit across a specified route.
22:33:09 <GregorR-W> ... Michigan ... Technology University?
22:34:32 <RodgerTheGreat> and then I get to savor sweet freedom (whilst, in theory, being forced to do oodles of homework. piddling details.)
22:36:48 <GregorR-W> South Trenton Filmography University.
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23:25:15 <ihope> Hmm, programming language.
23:25:34 <ihope> I design it, you guys implement it, okay? :-P
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23:32:31 -!- GregorR-W has changed nick to GhostOfGregor.
23:33:15 <GhostOfGregor> And you give me the credit (since I wrote it, really)
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23:47:19 <pikhq> Did someone kill Gregor?
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23:56:56 <CakeProphet> My Mom is seriously considering homeschooling now. :P
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00:04:07 <RodgerTheGreat> let me tell you something, cake: high-school is worthwhile.
00:04:08 * pikhq beats CakeProphet with his calculus textbook
00:04:44 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: He's *15*. . . That implies that he's a sophmore in HS. . .
00:04:50 <RodgerTheGreat> high school is worthwhile, ESPECIALLY if you wait to be an upperclassman.
00:05:13 <pikhq> Again: /me beats CakeProphet with his calculus textbook
00:05:16 <CakeProphet> High school is currently getting in the way of my education.
00:05:22 <RodgerTheGreat> and if you'd wait for me to get to my points before interjecting, you wouldn't be getting confused.
00:05:27 <pikhq> (yes, I'm a junior in AP Calc. Got a problem with that?)
00:05:58 <GregorR-W> pikhq: No, but I have a problem with you talking about it as if anybody is impressed.
00:06:52 <pikhq> GregorR-W: Sorry. Too damned used to people going "Oh, you're in calc? HOLY CRAP!!!". I assume that just says more about my school than anything else, though. . .
00:09:39 <RodgerTheGreat> anyway, the point I was trying to get to is that high-school isn't about learning things, really- it's about getting high enough grades to get into the college you want and developing rudimentary social skills so that your life in the real world won't suck ass.
00:10:48 <wooby> as popular languages are
00:10:53 <wooby> esolangs is where its at :)
00:14:40 <CakeProphet> I consider learning more important than college.
00:15:10 <wooby> yeah, college is chock full of cool opportunities though
00:15:13 <lament> high school is _mostly_ about social skills
00:15:21 <lament> and socials skills are more important than learning
00:15:27 <RodgerTheGreat> well, learning *is* important. My point is that learning is not what high school is about.
00:15:34 <lament> CakeProphet: to you, too
00:15:43 <lament> CakeProphet: as you will realize trying to find a girlfriend :)
00:15:45 <wooby> well at some point you need to learn to deal/cooperate with other humans, which is itself learning
00:15:54 <pikhq> And here I was, thinking that high school was about creating a sufficently trained worker for the industrial economy of the early 20th century. . .
00:15:58 <CakeProphet> I could care less about social skills... or girlsfriends for that matter.
00:16:04 <lament> CakeProphet: that will change.
00:16:28 <lament> CakeProphet: i don't care, it will change
00:16:39 <pikhq> I'm a virgin, but not by choice. ;)
00:16:40 <RodgerTheGreat> wether you want to even attempt getting a girlfriend or just MAKING FRIENDS, you will need social skills.
00:16:42 <CakeProphet> That statement... is so loaded it's not even funny.
00:16:50 <GregorR-W> At the age of 15, unless you cut off your testicles, you're not asexual.
00:16:56 <lament> CakeProphet: it's just how life works
00:17:07 * pikhq looks at the bloody knife in CakeProphet's hand
00:17:21 <lament> CakeProphet: no, it isn't
00:17:40 <pikhq> I think ~/porn says a whole lot about why it's not by choice. . .
00:17:58 <CakeProphet> I seriously have -no- desire for anything sexually related... maybe it's a biological defect, maybe I just don't care.
00:18:17 <lament> You also have no desire to have friends?
00:18:17 <RodgerTheGreat> sex doesn't have to be your primary motivator. It's pretty much always there, but it's not necessarily why you want to get in a relationship.
00:18:44 <CakeProphet> Friends are cool... but I'm not going to -try- and go out of the way to make friends... friendship should occur naturally.
00:18:51 <pikhq> If you don't care yet, I believe you will within the next few months.
00:19:10 <RodgerTheGreat> friendship doesn't just occur. You have to initiate something.
00:19:28 <lament> CakeProphet: trust me, you will change your mind. I'm speaking from experience regarding myself, my friends, and everyone else i know.
00:19:35 <GregorR-W> OK, this is a ridiculous conversation and my work day is close enough to over :P
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00:20:02 <lament> CakeProphet: you're like somebody claiming "i'm not mortal, only you guys are"
00:20:05 <CakeProphet> I'm just mildly irritated that you guys can't accept I'm -asexual-
00:20:25 <lament> i'm just mildly irritated you guys can't accept i'm immortal!
00:20:27 <CakeProphet> Asexual people -do- exist... I swear it's not a myth...
00:20:29 <RodgerTheGreat> once again, I'm saying- EVEN IF YOU DON'T WANT SEX, YOU NEED SOCIAL SKILLS.
00:20:34 <pikhq> I refuse to accept that you're ahuman. . .
00:21:15 <CakeProphet> Hate to get pissed about the whole mess... but all the comments are starting to piss me off.
00:21:30 <pikhq> Realise that sexual attraction is the major driving force in, oh. . . Life? The universe? Everything?
00:22:05 <lament> i was just using girlfriends as an example, really
00:22:15 <anonfunc> pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexual
00:22:39 <lament> social skills are more important than learning, because people are more important than whatever you're gonna use your learning for.
00:22:44 <RodgerTheGreat> you're confusing "social skills" with "sexual drives". Define social skills, in your way of thinking, or we're never going to get anything across.
00:23:05 <CakeProphet> Sex is mind-boggling distrubing actually... I don't understand how that could be even remotely pleasurable.
00:23:09 * pikhq drops that thread of conversation. . .
00:23:18 <lament> forget about the whole sex thing
00:23:33 <wooby> i dunno, i think that in general its cool to talk to other people especially in person
00:23:38 <lament> the original point was that homeschooling is bad because you don't get to learn/improve social skills
00:23:40 <wooby> if one feels differently, one is entitled to
00:23:53 <lament> and "social skills are more important than learning, because people are more important than whatever you're gonna use your learning for."
00:24:21 <pikhq> CakeProphet: I assure you, for those of us who care, it ends up being immensely pleasurable (yay, biology!). And with that, can we just shut up about it, because it's a bit of a moot point?
00:24:25 <CakeProphet> Pretty much all homeschoolers I know have no problems with social skills.
00:25:15 <CakeProphet> I can talk to people... and they can talk back... I can convey the emotions I'm feeling... and I don't care enough to get nervous... there... that's social skills.
00:25:40 <lament> not sure if 'don't care enough to get nervous' qualifies :)
00:25:46 <CakeProphet> Anything else is just a fake image... which isn't the kind of social skills I want.
00:26:14 <RodgerTheGreat> you just proved you have a thalamus, CakeProphet. congrats on that.
00:26:55 <lament> CakeProphet: i agree, sex is pretty disgusting :)
00:27:36 <CakeProphet> What other social skills would I need? And what makes you think homeschooling is going to instantly zap me of all my existing social interactions?
00:28:41 <lament> well, for one, you could learn to get less irritated when people insult your sexual preferences :)
00:28:53 <CakeProphet> Sure... I scare people with my social presence... but who cares how freaky I am? Obviously the last 11-or-so years of school hasn't made me a social bee.
00:29:42 <lament> that doesn't sound like good social skills to me :)
00:29:47 <CakeProphet> You were claiming it didn't exist... that's quite different... it's like saying "No you're clearly wrong about yourself"
00:30:37 <CakeProphet> "No... it's engraved into your skull to like men" To give you heterosexuals a comparison.
00:31:10 <pikhq> . . . No, it's engraved into your brainstem to like sex. . .
00:31:26 <pikhq> I'm going to assume that you've been at war with it for a bit. :p
00:31:31 <lament> CakeProphet: maybe you should consider stopping scaring people.
00:31:44 <CakeProphet> I don't do it intentionally... it's just simply how I am..
00:32:10 <CakeProphet> I'm a freaky person to other people... I'm pretty sure... perfectly normal to myself... so I have the simple conclusion of "fuck other people"... problem solved.
00:32:56 <CakeProphet> pikhq, Nope.. no raging conflicts at all.. I just really don't care.
00:32:58 <RodgerTheGreat> not going to work. wether you like people or not, you will deal with and interact with them for your entire life.
00:33:19 <CakeProphet> I never said I didn't like talking to people...
00:33:25 <lament> CakeProphet: "fuck other people" is not a sustainable policy
00:33:42 <pikhq> Unless you mean it literally. :
00:33:48 <CakeProphet> I'm fine with social interaction... I just don't worry about pretending to be someone that I'm not... that'll just screw me over later.
00:33:55 <RodgerTheGreat> and extremely ironic, considering your "asexual" nature [rimshot]
00:34:09 <lament> oh, it's not about pretending to be someone you're not :)
00:34:16 <lament> it's about changing yourself to be someone you're not
00:34:41 <lament> don't worry, it happens naturally.
00:34:46 <lament> it's called "growing up" :D
00:35:43 <RodgerTheGreat> and overcome your flaws, while making use of your talents.
00:36:00 <CakeProphet> I'm already doing that... no need to teach me about it.
00:36:47 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, fantastic. THIS explains why we're unable to get through to him. Move along people, nothing to see but a nutjob.
00:37:05 <pikhq> That would also explain his lack of logical ability.
00:37:27 * pikhq laughs hysterically. . .
00:37:35 <pikhq> Orgasm is one of the main techniques. :p
00:38:24 * lament orgasms all over the channel
00:38:30 <CakeProphet> Sorry to get so agitated about this... I really hate overacting... I was just feeling attacked.
00:39:49 <lament> CakeProphet: this is one of them "if youth knew, if old age could" things
00:40:16 <lament> CakeProphet: we're just trying to help you :)
00:41:29 <CakeProphet> So... this really got blown out of proportion... it's not really that devestating to my personal well-being that I'm going to be homeschooled.
00:42:01 <lament> but if you "scare people" then something is wrong.
00:42:42 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_magic A hint: normally, saying "I am a practicing wizard/witch/magician" scares the shit out of people. . .
00:43:31 <pikhq> And. . . You don't question that?!?
00:43:57 <RodgerTheGreat> so, explain to me this: if magic works, why is it that a 15 year old has all the answers, while actual scientists and professionals give it no credence whatsoever?
00:44:22 * pikhq passes CakeProphet "HOWTO: Install a brain".
00:44:40 <pikhq> Haven't used it much myself (I'm Christain), but I think you could use it. :p
00:45:03 <CakeProphet> Just so you know... no I do not think I can conjure fireballs out of midair and hurl them at people.
00:45:43 <lament> then what's the point? :(
00:45:58 <RodgerTheGreat> clearly. if you were that *obviously* crazy, you'd already be in the looney bin.
00:46:06 <CakeProphet> Belief shapes a persons reality... to Christians, God exists... etc. that is what I believe.
00:46:31 <lament> what does a belief in magic gives you that my non-belief in magic doesn't give me?
00:46:45 <CakeProphet> I use Chaos magic more as a personal principle... not as a method to make weird stuff happen... it's not a tool, it's a philosophy.
00:47:11 <lament> CakeProphet: I use my dick like that.
00:47:18 <lament> it's not a tool; it's a philosophy.
00:47:57 * lament considers banning everybody in the channel including himself
00:48:22 * CakeProphet isn't going to discuss this one... too many different opinions to make any outcome worthwhile.
00:48:56 <CakeProphet> Yeah... I guess it is kind of existential... I'd rather be existential than believing in ab Absolute Truth(tm).
00:49:41 <RodgerTheGreat> there is no absolute truth but reason. logic. frameworks upon which mankind's greatest achievements have been built.
00:50:01 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: god will _so_ smack you for taht.
00:50:25 * CakeProphet obviously disses science just because he follows something called "chaos magic"
00:50:32 <lament> and surely the mankind's greatest achievements are works of art?
00:50:36 <lament> which are not at all logical?
00:50:37 <CakeProphet> no... I agree with science... there's nothing to argue about there.
00:50:42 * RodgerTheGreat waits for lament's imaginary friend "god" to try something.
00:50:58 * pikhq notes the biblical verse stating that God ordered us to rule over and study the earth. . . Thereby ordering mankind into science. . . And thereby disproving his own existence. . . ;p
00:51:06 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: you a militant atheist?
00:52:05 <lament> "there is no absolute truth but reason. " - clearly you haven't smoked pot :)
00:52:06 * CakeProphet has been an atheist, Christian, New Ager, Bhuddist, Agnostic, Emo, Goth, and countless other isms.
00:52:19 <CakeProphet> It's one of the advantages of shifting paradigms.
00:52:35 <lament> CakeProphet: just become a taoist and get over it
00:52:36 <CakeProphet> I at least have a chunk of everyone's opinion at the most... makes it easier to relate to people and sympathize with them.
00:53:07 <RodgerTheGreat> nothing could please me more than an end to the chaos and waste that is religion. I have more of a problem with some religions than others, but they all serve nothing but our own desire for a simple answer to everything.
00:53:25 <CakeProphet> Spirituality is way more than that... I must say.
00:53:37 <CakeProphet> Although many people use religion as an answer... others don't.
00:54:00 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: surely "there's no god" is a much simpler answer than any other, no?
00:54:05 <CakeProphet> Depends on the person.... just like pretty much everything else.
00:54:10 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: non-existance of stuff seems inherently more simple than existence...
00:54:24 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: so YOU are the one with a simple answer...
00:55:46 <RodgerTheGreat> lament- your logic is flawed, because you aren't looking any further than the question of god. the implications behind the non-existence of god, using your remaining chain of statements, prove that I am most likely right. try again.
00:56:30 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: depends on the nature of the god
00:56:48 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: for example, Judaism certainly does not give any simple answers to anything
00:56:56 <lament> if anything it makes things more complicated
00:57:08 <RodgerTheGreat> the ultimate problem with proving the non-existence of god is precisely that- those with beliefs will continue to re-define what god is until the argument is meaningless.
00:57:26 <CakeProphet> Okay... here's a solution before we all inevitably get into a religion discussion... let's all just except that people and different, think differently, and believe different things, and that it's okay and that we have no obligation to change them or "convert" them.... okay? THat'll save you all a few hours.
00:57:45 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: how does judaism give "simple answers"?
00:58:42 <CakeProphet> <broad generalization>Atheists can be just as guilty of trying to "convert" people as Christians. </broad generalization>
00:58:48 <RodgerTheGreat> judaism gives one answer: to wait. It's no wonder that when one of their own tried to reform the religion, they shattered in half.
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00:59:22 <GregorR-W> Thou shalt not discuss religion on #esoteric
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00:59:51 <CakeProphet> We're only supposed to rant about coding paradigms.
01:00:06 <CakeProphet> Arguably just as bad as religion is when it comes to discussion.
01:00:55 <lament> the messiah will likely come after any individual believer dies
01:01:38 * CakeProphet invents his religious practices every day.
01:01:39 <lament> in any case the belief in the messiah is not really a major part of judaism
01:01:50 <lament> CakeProphet: sounds like you simply have too much free time.
01:02:25 <RodgerTheGreat> religions are themselves the memetic equivalent of organisms.
01:02:38 <CakeProphet> It's much more fun than following the same old boring beliefs... poof, one day there's a spiritual entity in me that I'll call the mind buffalo... the next it is customary to wear one sock and do everything with the wrong hand... it's both fun and rewarding :P
01:03:08 <RodgerTheGreat> probably the closest biological analogy would be a virus.
01:03:41 <lament> CakeProphet: basically, you invent stuff for no reason. Consider writing symphonies instead.
01:03:58 <CakeProphet> Oh no... I definetely believe whatever I invent.
01:04:11 <RodgerTheGreat> just as computer viruses spread via networks and email, religions spread through flyers, books, television shows and human speech.
01:04:33 <lament> CakeProphet: you could just as well write symphonies instead! it's fun!
01:05:26 -!- lament has set topic: #religion, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - for brainfuck-specific discussion, go to ##brainfuck - competition: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/2006_Esolang_Contest.
01:05:29 <CakeProphet> I'll just detour that.. which would take effort... by believing that there is a symphony God that writes all symphonies.
01:06:03 <lament> yeah... i think "too much free time" _is_ your main problem.
01:06:12 * RodgerTheGreat decides to write a spec for "theos", a religiously structured programming language, to illustrate his theories.
01:06:30 <CakeProphet> What? It's better to be in a little cage without freedom?
01:07:15 <CakeProphet> Quotes are cool... they give people the illusion that other people agree with them.
01:07:24 <RodgerTheGreat> THOU SHALL LET A BE ONE. THOU SHALL FORM A LOOP. THOU SHALL PRINT A. THOU SHALL INCREMENT A. THOU SHALL REPEAT THE LOOP.
01:08:05 <anonfunc> RodgerTheGreat: and random failures, unless there is a AND GOD SAW THE LOOP AND IT WAS GOOD
01:08:23 <CakeProphet> That could be a form of exception checking.
01:09:08 <pgimeno> anonfunc, looking at God's criterium for goodness I don't think the random failures would be avoided
01:09:09 <anonfunc> RodgerTheGreat: or "god saw the loop, and it was good, and blessed it for <limit> generations"
01:09:52 <anonfunc> pgimeno: Depends on the religious framework one operates in, I suppose.
01:10:23 <pgimeno> yeah, just my daily bit of irony
01:10:26 <RodgerTheGreat> creation can define inheritance. Firmament -> Earth/Clay -> Man, Bees, Porcupines, etc.
01:10:32 <CakeProphet> AND GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS could be defining a new class.
01:10:48 <anonfunc> output to a terminal could be in terms of GOD'S PROPHET SPOKE TO THE PEOPLE AND SAID:
01:11:22 <RodgerTheGreat> but you have to make and name a prophet first (bufferedwriter) and people (output device)
01:11:24 <anonfunc> it's suddenly become very clear that i've spent too much time in the old testament.
01:11:26 <CakeProphet> AND FROM THE DUST OF THE EARTH GOD CREATED MAN man inherits dust... which inherits earth
01:11:51 <lament> CakeProphet: no, AND THE MEEK SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH
01:12:25 <RodgerTheGreat> no- that means that when a loop ceases to be blessed, meek is passed a value from earth.
01:12:30 <anonfunc> and a built in list type: GET THEE BEHIND ME, <value>
01:13:25 <RodgerTheGreat> I was thinking that you could damn a function to prevent it from running, and then purify it if you need it later.
01:13:33 <anonfunc> maybe a built in constant PI that is equal to three.
01:13:45 <anonfunc> RodgerTheGreat: in an Aspect oriented way?
01:14:03 <anonfunc> the join points are set out as rituals
01:14:14 <anonfunc> and the weave whatnots are commandments.
01:15:18 <RodgerTheGreat> and variables are represented by objects and classes that god must create.
01:15:40 <RodgerTheGreat> commandments are globals and/or some types of conditionals.
01:15:57 <anonfunc> test framework or assertions, maybe.
01:16:38 <anonfunc> well, theres some good verbage for flow control in bits of Romans, maybe chapter six.
01:16:56 <anonfunc> FOR WE ARE DEAD TO <thread> BY THE POWER OF GOD
01:17:46 <anonfunc> I could never remember the fourth car.
01:18:48 <RodgerTheGreat> different "locations" for objects could alter how they function: Earth, eden, heaven, hell, limbo- all of which can be defined with different names.
01:19:18 <anonfunc> well, there are at least several hundred biblical names for god as well
01:19:22 <CakeProphet> AND THE LORD SAID UNTO THE WOMAN, "WHAT IS THIS THAT THOU HAST DONE?" <-- exception handling?
01:19:29 <RodgerTheGreat> and your commandments set up what happens on earth and when objects are moved.
01:20:24 <pikhq> And "earth.fuckup();" was unfortunately executed. :p
01:20:51 <CakeProphet> Hmmm... so when do we drive <object> from the harden?
01:20:52 <ihope> Isn't it "thou shalt"?
01:21:14 <RodgerTheGreat> limbo is where people are judged, so that should involve conditionals...
01:21:22 <ihope> And why not either have this esolang be in Hebrew and Greek or use a modern translation?
01:21:43 <anonfunc> AND GOD SAW THAT THE EARTH HAD FUCKEDUP, AND HIS PROPHET SAID TO THE STACK: "THOU SHALT NOT BE EMPTY, BUT UNTO YOU THE FULLNESS OF THE EARTH BE GIVEN"
01:21:48 <ihope> "And the Lord said to the woman, 'what is this that you have done?'"
01:22:11 <ihope> anonfunc: if EARTH is FUCKEDUP, then push EARTH onto the stack?
01:22:17 <CakeProphet> not in my Bible anyways... (don't ask me why I have a bible)
01:22:46 <anonfunc> ihope: possible. maybe the address of the earth pointer? :-P
01:22:55 <RodgerTheGreat> well, gotta go for now- I'll return with a more formalized concept of this tomorrow.
01:23:08 -!- RodgerTheGreat has left (?).
01:23:14 <ihope> The address of a pointer? Let's not get into two-star programming :-P
01:23:26 <CakeProphet> And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done?" and the woman said, "The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
01:24:21 <anonfunc> ihope: Gah. I hate saying value of the pointer because I think of what it points to.
01:24:25 <pikhq> AND GOD CREATED A STAR OVER $name_of_pointed_variable, AND LO: IT WAS GOOD.
01:25:05 <pikhq> AND GOD CREATED A STAR OVER $name_of_pointed_variable, AND LO: IT WAS $name_of_pointer.
01:25:08 <ihope> CakeProphet: get a new Bible :-P
01:25:15 <pikhq> To end the program:
01:25:32 <ihope> "The snake tricked me, and I ate."
01:25:43 <pikhq> AND THERE WAS THE FULL GLORY OF GOD'S SON, TAKING HIS BELIEVERS UP WITH HIM.
01:25:51 <CakeProphet> My parents are insane-Georgia-born-again-country-baptists... they consider the new bibles "not the real thing"
01:26:32 <pikhq> It sounds way more Early Modern Englishy.
01:26:58 <CakeProphet> Yeah... Kings James Version... written by Early Modern English folk.
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01:27:16 <pikhq> It was considered archaic when it was written.
01:27:37 <Razor-X> Come on lament, I see a great ``your mom'' joke right there.
01:27:57 <pikhq> Clearly haven't seen the context.
01:28:55 <CakeProphet> I think mine's a near-exact Kings James Version... no idea though.. I don't look at it too much.
01:28:56 <ihope> This version of that verse is more Biblical than your version of that verse: וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים לָאִשָּׁה, מַה-זֹּאת עָשִׂית; וַתֹּאמֶר, הָאִשָּׁה, הַנָּחָשׁ הִשִּׁיאַנִי, וָאֹכֵל.
01:29:27 <Razor-X> The King James Bible is very wrong in some spots, it seems.
01:29:53 <CakeProphet> that's not written in American... God intended all good Christian Bibles to be written in stuff that makes sense!. </redneck voice>
01:29:59 <pikhq> The KJV used a lot of archaic language for the time it was written. Weird, huh?
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01:30:36 <Razor-X> I was reading Zamenhoff's translation of Genesis, and it used an odd word firmaĝo.
01:30:50 <ihope> An English translation?
01:30:55 <Razor-X> I mean, I knew *what* it meant, but couldn't think of an English alternative.
01:31:02 <ihope> "And they came upon the firmaĝo..."
01:31:06 <pikhq> CakeProphet: No, I mean *when it was written*, it used archaic language.
01:31:13 <Razor-X> I looked in the King James version and they translated it as Firmament, which seemed .... not correct enough.
01:31:38 <Razor-X> firmaĝo represents something ``substance-like''.
01:32:03 <Razor-X> Something that actually has no physical substance but has a non-concrete quality of ``substance''.
01:32:09 <pikhq> Razor-X: Could you use the pure ASCII form? I lack Unicode terminals.
01:32:32 <pikhq> ihope: Ne. Esperanto.
01:33:01 <Razor-X> Mi pensas ke li komprenas la signifiko de tiu nomo pikhq :P
01:33:02 <pikhq> Zamenhoff is the guy *responsible* for Esperanto. . . -_-
01:33:09 <Razor-X> *la signifikon de tiun nomon
01:33:33 * CakeProphet even has the part that begins "to the most high and mighty prince James, by the Grace of God, King of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, Defender of Faith, The Translators of the Bible wish Grace, Mercy, and Peace through Jesus Christ our Lord" Clearly King Jame's men do not lie... they wish the grace of God.
01:34:01 <pikhq> Mochiron wa eigo de nan da ka?
01:34:23 <Razor-X> (I hate romaji, my romaji sucks, sorry.)
01:34:31 <Razor-X> I can't think of an equivalent word.
01:34:46 <pikhq> If I could get these stupid keyboards to do kana & kanji, I'd use it.
01:35:05 <pikhq> Haven't been able to figure out how to do it on Gentoo.
01:35:19 <Razor-X> Look. I can set it up on *Slackware* :D .
01:35:40 <pikhq> Severe Laziness Syndrome causes a hell of a lot of my issues. ;)
01:36:14 <Razor-X> Today I'm taking a break from Japanese, because I've amassed about 1300+ words in the last 9 days.
01:36:51 <Razor-X> I do somewhere from 60-100 words per day.
01:37:46 <pikhq> That's a bit difficult to do when one is learning Japanese at school. . .
01:39:04 <Razor-X> I've been learning a lot of Keigo as of late, since I've been working out of a novel.
01:40:15 <Razor-X> But seriously, Zamenhoff's Torah translation uses pretty basic Esperanto.
01:40:31 <Razor-X> The only odd thing is it uses a lot of weird nonstandard roots (like firmagxo).
01:41:09 <pikhq> Well, I'd hope his early stuff used basic Esperanto. . .
01:41:28 <pikhq> Considering that the language was defined in itself. . . :p
01:41:41 <Razor-X> Well, he needn't have restricted himself to *such* basic Esperanto.
01:41:55 <Razor-X> He had already used more poetic Esperanto for his novel translations.
01:45:03 <pikhq> Also, I don't think the Torah itself used very complex language; he might have been just fairly literal.
01:45:35 <Razor-X> That's what my hunch is too.
01:45:47 <Razor-X> I had heard that the original Hebrew was meant for the ``everyman'' of the time.
01:49:36 <Razor-X> And while language preserves our works forever, the secret enemy unsheathes his countenance: Linguistic Drift!
01:50:18 <Razor-X> A lot of the early novel translations sound weird in Esperanto too, which is pathetic :P
01:50:42 <pikhq> In this case, though, it's more that
01:50:57 <Razor-X> Yeah. It becomes semi-unreadable.
01:51:03 <Razor-X> Heck, people take classes to read Shakespeare.
01:51:13 <pikhq> Why do j and k have to be so close?
01:51:28 * pikhq was trying to do C-k, and did C-j. . .
01:51:37 <Razor-X> You're learning Dvorak then?
01:51:55 <pikhq> And I'm not used to this laptop's keyboard.
01:52:26 <Razor-X> GregorR: Like I said, think of the poor poor QWERTY users.
01:52:51 <pikhq> Also, it doesn't help that I'm watching Invader Zim on my big CRT instead of looking at my laptop's LCD.
01:53:06 * pikhq is currently just using his laptop as an SSH terminal. . .
01:53:08 <Razor-X> Never liked that show much :P
01:53:29 <pikhq> I'm a rare non-goth addict. . .
01:53:55 <pikhq> It seems a hell of a lot of goths at my school like the show.
01:54:14 <Razor-X> The show put too much emphasis on ``gross'' stuff.
01:54:53 <pikhq> I really, really like it, but I have no idea why. . .
01:55:13 <Razor-X> Maybe kinda like how I really, really, really like Marimite but have no idea why.
01:55:30 <Razor-X> So much to the point where I've developed dossiers of two of the characters and all the trite information assosciated with them.
02:02:36 <Razor-X> By the way, The Scheme Programming Language is a great book to learn Scheme if you have prior programming experience.
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02:19:32 <Razor-X> I wonder how Lisp is for a beginner, since my biggest problem with it in the beginning was that Lisp is *too* smart.
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02:29:05 <pikhq> Do a CTCP version.
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02:57:25 <GregorR> Razor-X: Why was that statement directed at me?
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02:57:41 <Razor-X> GregorR: It was about the abbrevations.
02:58:06 <GregorR> Not that I see from the context :p
02:58:59 <GregorR> I added info on derivation to the spec *whoot*
02:59:30 <Razor-X> There's forking going on already?!
03:00:02 <Razor-X> Nothing like forking to water down an otherwise good project <(^_^)< ^(^_^)^ >(^_^)>
03:00:36 <GregorR> Derivation as in object orientation ...
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05:33:02 <CakeProphet> Hmmm... eventually... creationists will boycott Pokemon for teaching children evolutution.
06:31:22 <GregorR> plof2js gains more features >: )
06:43:50 <GregorR> !cat thematrixeatsyou didn't remember the command.
06:43:54 <EgoBot> thematrixeatsyou didn't remember the command.
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06:49:11 <GregorR> Yay, it has call-with-scope capabilities ^^
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06:59:23 <GregorR-L> Try http://pastebin.ca/149864 on http://www.codu.org/plof/2js/
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07:27:20 <Razor-X> !cat I really don't like strippers much.
07:27:24 <EgoBot> I really don't like strippers much.
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08:01:00 <Razor-X> Agh. call/cc is killing me.
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08:11:32 <GregorR-L> I totally don't know what call/cc is...
08:12:28 <Razor-X> As in you tried learning it?
08:15:07 <GregorR-L> I know it has vague similarities to exceptions of imperative fame.
08:17:14 <Razor-X> Each Lisp seems to have its mind-bender, I guess.
08:24:16 <GregorR-L> Also, Plof is a hybrid language :P
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19:11:12 -!- ihope has set topic: ##quantum, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - for brainfuck-specific discussion, go to ##brainfuck - competition: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/2006_Esolang_Contest.
19:17:01 <ihope> How about an OISC with "reverse subtract and reverse jump if borrow" as its only instruction?
19:37:38 <CakeProphet> hmmm.. does Python have full Unicode access?
19:38:02 <CakeProphet> I inputted text with a unicode character and got...
19:38:04 <CakeProphet> UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\u03c2' in position 2814: ordinal not in range(128)
19:39:11 <fizzie> "if you leave off the encoding argument, the ASCII encoding is used for the conversion, so characters greater than 127 will be treated as errors"
19:39:16 <fizzie> http://www.amk.ca/python/howto/unicode
19:39:25 <fizzie> Note that I'm very much not a Pythonist.
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20:13:08 <GregorR> That wasn't a less-than-three.
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20:44:29 <CakeProphet> So.. I think I'm actually going to learn brainfuck.... now
20:45:37 <CakeProphet> I have no idea how you would do conditionals or anything... it looks pretty for difficult...
20:46:43 <oerjanj> a conditional would simply be a loop that always executes at most once...
20:48:02 <CakeProphet> How do you get it to check if a value is true or false for a conditional?
20:48:09 <oerjanj> the only way to test in BF is with a [] loop.
20:48:23 <oerjanj> you must manage to store that value in a cell
20:49:11 <oerjanj> if you have a value in the current cell, [] loops check if it is zero.
20:50:13 <oerjanj> i should perhaps mention that i have never written a BF program myself
20:50:34 <oerjanj> so these are just thoughts
20:51:13 <oerjanj> and a [-] loop sets the current cell to zero
20:51:57 <oerjanj> so a [...[-]] loop is like an if-then
20:52:25 <fizzie> I haven't written too much brainf*ck either, but that's exactly the way I've done conditionals.
20:53:25 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon EgoBot reload
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20:53:27 <EgoBot> 2 EgoBot: daemon cat reload
20:54:25 <oerjanj> so the second problem is how to compute a conditional value in order to test it
20:55:05 <CakeProphet> It loops something once... sets it to zero.. and continues... were's the condition there?
20:55:47 <oerjanj> ok, so it's more like the then part. the if part is any program that stores the condition in the current cell
20:56:38 <CakeProphet> I tend to understand crap better if I do it myself.
20:57:02 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
20:57:03 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
20:57:56 <EgoBot> 56 ++++++++++++[>>+++>++++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>>----.>.>+.... [189]
20:58:28 <EgoBot> 66 ++++++++++++[>+++>++++++>+++++++++><<<<-]>----.>.>+....<---------. [91]
20:59:37 <CakeProphet> Does that print that text... and then reset the cell to zero?
21:00:21 <oerjanj> !bf ++++++++++++[>>+++>++++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>>----.>.>+....
21:00:45 <GregorR> CakeProphet: I'd run it through a debuggable interpreter and use # to see how it ends. I don't think it's always the same.
21:01:02 <oerjanj> it uses more than one cell too
21:01:32 <CakeProphet> I'm trying to figure out how to do if input == "a": print Hmmmm
21:01:41 <oerjanj> but since it ends with .... it is pretty obvious that it doesn't reset after the m's
21:01:58 <GregorR> Look on the esolangs Brainfuck page, there's a link to a bunch o' algorithms
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21:07:30 <EgoBot> 34 ++++++++++++[>++++++++>>><<<<-]>+. [43]
21:07:40 <EgoBot> 34 ++++++++++++[>++++++++>>><<<<-]>+. [26]
21:07:48 <GregorR-L> If you want real efficiency, I'd download TextGen.java.
21:07:53 <GregorR-L> It'll run indefinitely in reality.
21:09:37 <GregorR-L> I don't think EgoBot has -debug on.
21:11:09 <oerjanj> !bf >+[,>+<----------[>-<]>]<[++++++++++.<]
21:11:34 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
21:11:36 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
21:11:53 <GregorR-L> Probably want a newline there too.
21:12:54 <GregorR-L> CakeProphet: Look on the "Brainfuck Constants" page on the wiki for 95.
21:13:27 <pikhq> You think it was doing anything?
21:14:03 <GregorR> OK, reloading EgoBot with debug support on for BF
21:14:06 -!- EgoBot has quit ("Reloading...").
21:14:36 <GregorR> Connecting so slooooooooooow
21:14:37 -!- EgoBot has joined.
21:14:47 <EgoBot> 0:*0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|
21:14:51 <ihope> [blah[-]] will execute blah if the current cell is non-zero, and will always leave that cell at zero.
21:14:59 * pikhq is starting to get the feeling that his Java compiler is broken. . .
21:15:03 <oerjanj> !bf >+[,>+<----------[>-<]>]<<[++++++++++.<]++++++++++.
21:15:13 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Yeah, it's written in Java.
21:15:23 <pikhq> GregorR: Could you hand me a compiled bytecode of textgen.java?
21:15:31 <pikhq> GCJ seems to be t3h bork, but not GIJ.
21:15:32 <ihope> !bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
21:15:42 <ihope> Very efficient 65.
21:15:54 <CakeProphet> Teehee... would it be bastardizing brainfuck if it could handle functions?
21:16:07 <pikhq> CakeProphet: It already can do functions.
21:16:42 <ihope> Just turn all your recursion into while loops, then it's only a bit of hackery to get that C into BF.
21:16:56 <GregorR-L> http://gregorr.homelinux.org/textgen.tar.gz < .class
21:17:03 <ihope> Now, who's gonna write HS2UL?
21:17:10 <ihope> Haskell to Unlambda...
21:18:09 <CakeProphet> I'm having trouble understanding the bf algorithms
21:18:15 <pikhq> You sure it's on :80, and not :8080?
21:18:34 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Y'know what I'm not sure about - that I actually forwarded that port :P
21:18:38 <oerjanj> i am not sure those are appropriate since unlambda has no mutable data structures and is eager, so you cannot simulate call-on-need
21:18:39 <ihope> CakeProphet: temporary storage. Think of them as local variables.
21:18:40 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Temporarily used memory cells, that's all. . .
21:18:56 <pikhq> GregorR-L: I can't connect to it, so you haven't forwarded said port.
21:19:00 <CakeProphet> So you just replace temp0 with some random cell?
21:19:13 <oerjanj> but the thunk would be evaluated every time
21:19:14 <pikhq> With some cell that you're not using for anything else.
21:19:17 <ihope> CakeProphet: well, you'll probably have to zero it first. Depends on the algorithm.
21:19:29 <pikhq> So, do I just rename that to a class, or untar it?
21:20:16 <ihope> oerjanj: thunks. Like output functions are thunks.
21:20:37 <ihope> .H is a thunk. r is a thunk. Continuations are thunks, I think.
21:20:44 * pikhq is going to beat some stuff with a bat
21:21:53 <pikhq> Yeah. GCJ and GIJ are borken here. :'(
21:22:13 <ihope> Without compilation, that is.
21:22:16 * pikhq installs sablevm & jikes, in hopes of it working better
21:22:24 <oerjanj> i have no problem understanding thunks. but for call-on-need you need to replace a thunk by its result.
21:22:49 <pikhq> Which should be part of the ebuild, or a dependency of the ebuild. . .
21:23:16 <ihope> oerjanj: I don't get what you're saying. Thunks wouldn't be evaluated until you call them.
21:23:24 <ihope> Calling != evaluating.
21:24:01 <pikhq> ihope: The algorithms page assumes that all temp cells need to be zeroed.
21:24:07 <oerjanj> the problem is having it evaluating just once if the value is used several places.
21:24:24 <ihope> Isn't that just optimization?
21:27:01 <oerjanj> in principle, i suppose. if you don't care about exponential blowup
21:28:50 <oerjanj> i was pondering how to use lazy-k for haskell and i found it might have trouble with recursive data structures
21:31:41 <oerjanj> because a naive implementation would construct the value again for the recursion. it was the same problem of not being able to remember values
21:32:55 <oerjanj> !bf >+[,>+<----------[>-<]>]#
21:33:28 <GregorR-L> !EgoBot thinks you're being abusive.
21:33:29 <GregorR-L> !EgoBot thinks you're being abusive.
21:33:31 <EgoBot> thinks you're being abusive.<CTCP>
21:33:34 * EgoBot thinks you're being abusive.
21:33:58 <oerjanj> i'm just trying to make this program work
21:34:22 <GregorR-L> I hav eno idea what you're trying to make it do ^^
21:34:46 <CakeProphet> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
21:34:52 <CakeProphet> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
21:35:05 <CakeProphet> I'm starting to see how it all fits together.
21:35:17 <CakeProphet> Though I probably messed this one up terribly.
21:35:29 <GregorR-L> Can't really tell with that paste :P
21:35:35 * ihope attempts to make a quine
21:35:54 * oerjanj resigns to a little hand debugging
21:35:55 <CakeProphet> Well.... I'm trying to figure out what the hell this one was supposed to do.
21:36:00 <EgoBot> 27 +++++++[>++++++>>><<<<-]>+. [23]
21:36:21 <ihope> Ah yes, the famous >>><<<<.
21:36:27 <ihope> !bf_txtgen +++++++[>++++++>>><<<<-]>+.
21:36:45 <GregorR-L> ihope: Good technique, you'll get a quine any day now :P
21:37:31 <CakeProphet> holy shit! I just figured out how it works.
21:37:32 <EgoBot> 103 +++++++++++++++[>+++>+++>++++>++++++<<<<-]>--.>--..<..>..>>+.<++.<<....>..>...--....<++.>>++.<++.<<.>+. [469]
21:37:41 <EgoBot> ~}|{zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:9876543210/.-,+*)('&%$#"!
21:37:56 <ihope> Great job, Gregor!
21:38:05 <CakeProphet> That's genius... I applaud whoever figured if x (blah) else (otherblah)
21:38:33 <ihope> !bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
21:38:47 <ihope> !bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
21:39:37 <ihope> !bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++...........................................+++...........................................---...
21:39:39 <EgoBot> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++...........................................+++
21:39:54 <oerjanj> !bf >+[,.>+<----------[>-<]>]<<[++++++++++.<]++++++++++.
21:40:09 <ihope> !bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++...........................................+++...........................................---...+++...........................................
21:40:11 <EgoBot> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++...........................................+++...........................................
21:40:26 <ihope> Getting there, eh?
21:40:30 <CakeProphet> !bf +++[>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<-]
21:41:04 <CakeProphet> !bf +++[>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<<->]
21:41:17 <oerjanj> !bf >+[,.>+<----------[>-<]>]<<[++++++++++.<]++++++++++.
21:41:59 <EgoBot> .\Bp(V<j"P~6dJx0^Dr*X>l$R
21:42:06 <oerjanj> hm, that T may have been mine
21:43:28 <GregorR-L> No it isn't, it's buffered to avoid flooding.
21:43:57 <GregorR-L> And you guys killed it, didn't you >_<
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21:45:29 <GregorR-L> No, I'm saying the buffering makes it appear slow.
21:45:53 <CakeProphet> !bf +++>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<[>.<-]
21:46:38 <CakeProphet> !bf +++++>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<[>.<-]
21:47:54 <CakeProphet> It's basically... do ths... this many times.
21:50:11 <EgoBot> 61 +++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++>><<<<-]>--.>.<---.++++++++. [311]
21:53:31 <CakeProphet> NumberofTimes>+++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++>><<<<-]>--.>.<---.++++++++<[>.>.>.>.[<]-]
21:53:43 <CakeProphet> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>+++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++>><<<<-]>--.>.<---.++++++++<[>.>.>.>.[<]-]
21:54:03 <CakeProphet> !bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>+++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++>><<<<-]>--.>.<---.++++++++<[>.>.>.>.[<]-]
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21:54:49 <CakeProphet> Yeah.... egobot uses weird confusing stuff
21:55:11 <GregorR-L> It's a genetic algorithm. I didn't write it :P
21:55:57 * CakeProphet begins storing a collection of functions for later use.
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21:59:26 <CakeProphet> NumberofTimes>StuffToDoItToo<[>WhatistobeDone<-]
21:59:53 <CakeProphet> A do-crap-to-something-this-many-times function!
22:03:35 <EgoBot> Use: i <pid> <input> Function: send input to a process
22:06:46 <pikhq> textgen is actually damned clever. . .
22:08:05 <pikhq> Uses a lot of memory, though.
22:08:55 <pikhq> It's a genetic algorithm; sort of has to use a large amount of memory. . .
22:10:57 <CakeProphet> Does it automatically take non-brainfuck input and translate it into brainfuck?
22:12:14 <pikhq> It's what !bf_textgen is doing (except that if you run it on localhost, you have an infinite amount of generations for it do_.
22:13:19 <EgoBot> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
22:13:58 <pikhq> Ah. It quits after that.
22:14:54 <pikhq> !bf ,[>,<[>.<-][-]++++++++++.,]
22:15:01 <EgoBot> eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
22:15:04 <EgoBot> ttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
22:15:16 <EgoBot> ..............................................
22:15:38 <EgoBot> ..............................................
22:17:12 <CakeProphet> !bf +[>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>,<[>.<-]<]
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23:23:06 <GregorR-L> if(a.type[0] == a, {println("YAY");});
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00:16:55 <ihope> Ooh, the suspense.
00:17:16 <GregorR-L> if(in(a, a.type), {println("YAY");});
00:20:39 <ihope> I was hoping that it would ask if I wanted to decide on a class, race, gender and alignment or not.
00:22:14 <ihope> I have a little script thing called /dev/startnethack that's supposed to remount the filesystem as read-write and run NetHack.
00:22:28 <ihope> Then I put init=/dev/startnethack in my boot settings.
00:23:26 * ihope writes rw init=/usr/games/nethack
00:27:54 * ihope pops back to Linux to be greeted with "Who are you?"
00:28:24 <GregorR-L> /dev is sort of a bad place to put that ...
00:29:22 <GregorR-L> /dev/bin is sort of a bad place to put that ...
00:29:45 <GregorR-L> Well, /dev is generally a pseudofilesystem...
00:31:04 * ihope exits NetHack and is greeted with a kernel panic
00:31:12 <ihope> Or is that... hmm.
00:31:40 <pikhq> Well, duh. You tried killing init.
00:32:01 <pikhq> And, sadly, Linux doesn't handle that quite right.
00:32:15 <ihope> How am I supposed to shut down Linux from within NetHack, then?
00:38:00 <GregorR-L> Run it with a different program that just runs nethack then shutdown.
00:39:18 <ihope> Now, what if NetHack were an operating system? There'd be stuff like a portal to a web browser level...
00:39:24 <ihope> The lynx hits! The firefox hits!
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02:06:03 <RodgerTheGreat_> this is what I get for leaving the computer in my room running without changing it to AFK first.
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02:13:47 <GregorR-L> No, this is what the rest of us get for you levaing the computer in your room without changing it to AFK first :-P
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02:47:37 <GregorR-L> if(in(A, B.type), { println("It's an A!"); });
02:48:18 <calamari> hey Gregor.. have a flex question for you..
02:48:32 <calamari> does it automatically read from stdin, or do I need to feed it somehow?
02:49:34 <GregorR-L> I think if you just run yyparse(), it's from stdin...
02:55:57 <GregorR-L> It's a functional/imperative/oo hybrid.
02:57:35 <calamari> functional languages confuse me
02:58:19 <GregorR-L> Well, "Plof attempts to be usable as a functional programming language, but without alienating imperative programmers."
02:59:51 <calamari> hmm.. is that code adding a function to a list?
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03:01:06 <GregorR-L> And it adds a function to the object, yes.
03:01:20 <GregorR-L> Then it makes B, which is derived from A, so B.type includes A.
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03:33:53 <GregorR-L> lament: Problem Exists Between Chair and Keyboard [sic, PEBKAC]
03:43:16 <GregorR-L> http://www.cafepress.com/donotputthebaby < The T-shirts you should buy
03:43:54 <RodgerTheGreat> it doesn't have mine yet. I'll wait for the next revision.
03:45:44 <GregorR-L> I've been thinking I'll need to put fewer on.
03:45:52 <GregorR-L> It's hard to tell what's going on on the 40 one.
03:52:04 <calamari> well, 6 if you count the 90 cent stamps
03:53:15 <GregorR-L> "The 40 one" = "the t-shirt with 40 images"
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07:59:34 <CakeProphet> !bf ++++>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<[>.<-]
07:59:51 <CakeProphet> !bf ++++>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<[>.<-]
07:59:59 <CakeProphet> !bf ++++>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<[>.<-]
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08:00:26 <CakeProphet> !bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>,[>.<-]
08:02:00 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
08:02:02 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
08:02:18 <EgoBot> fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
08:03:43 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
08:03:44 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
08:03:54 <EgoBot> Use: ls [dir] Function: list a directory in the pseudofilesystem
08:04:24 <EgoBot> Use: eof <pid> Function: send EOF to a process
08:04:36 <EgoBot> Use: flush Function: flush the output buffer, discarding any current output
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08:44:06 <Razor-X> Good job shouting out expletives *makes thumbs up sign*.
08:45:50 <Razor-X> And making ineffecient programs :P
08:51:20 <Razor-X> Is there any reccomended programming style in Scheme?
08:51:43 <Razor-X> Since it has good imperative and functional elements, is any one of them preferred, or can you program either way, or what?
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08:59:19 <CakeProphet> Razor-X, Doesn't matter... although it's pretty function...
08:59:33 <CakeProphet> You can customize on it a ton with functions.
09:00:07 <Razor-X> Yeah... you can customize it with functions but.....
09:00:17 <Razor-X> You know, functional, imperial? Internal state?
09:01:56 <Razor-X> That's why I liked Haskell. At least it keeps you in one paradigm :P
09:09:16 <Arrogant> Razor-X, Scheme tends to emphasize functional, but does allow for state modification with a number of functions, often suffixed with a "!"
09:09:53 <Razor-X> I'm comfortable programming both ways, but I wonder if I should be ``functional until I have to''.
09:10:46 <Arrogant> Razor-X, be functional as long as it is reasonable, I'd say.
09:10:58 <Arrogant> I think Haskell goes beyond reasonable.
09:11:19 <Razor-X> I've gotten used to Haskell quite a bit though, so I can easily emulate state in a purely functional form.
09:11:46 <Razor-X> Well, there's only one jam I really came up with (multithreading two different functions that depend on one independant state).
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10:14:03 <Razor-X> Mmmm. This BF interpreter in the making should be easy to convert into a DBF interpreter when the time comes.
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16:10:05 * pikhq makes out with his graphing calculator. . .
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20:19:15 <pikhq> I stopped a while ago; seems saliva + batteries = pain.
20:19:41 <Razor-X> Good job *makes thumbs up sign*!
20:20:29 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: Soon, your Java interpreter for DBF will not stand alone!
20:20:54 * pikhq should totally make a DBF compiler
20:22:32 * GregorR should totally make EgoDBF
20:22:48 <pikhq> Not even one that compiles directly to machine code?
20:22:55 <Razor-X> No, not DBF coders. We won't touch DBF after the interpreters are done.
20:23:22 <GregorR> egobfc2m compiles to machine code ^^
20:23:33 <Razor-X> Well, this was originally meant to be a BF interpreter, but it should be trivial to extend this to DBF.
20:23:41 * pikhq really should figure out how to do machine code. . .
20:24:00 <GregorR> pikhq: First you get gcc, then you get gobjdump :P
20:24:06 <pikhq> Meh. I'll write the DBF compiler in Tcl, since I'm really good at it. . .
20:24:32 <Razor-X> I could've written a DBF interpreter in Ruby or Haskell (or maybe even C) but that would take out the fun.
20:24:36 <pikhq> Maybe I'll just have it output ASM, and rely on gas to assemble it (like, I believe, GCC does?)?
20:24:57 <Razor-X> This is going to be a weird functional-imperative hybrid interpreter thing.
20:25:45 <pikhq> Or I'll be lazy and compile to C. :p
20:25:56 <Razor-X> Oh, and this is also Object Oriented.
20:26:18 <Razor-X> Functional, Imperative, OO. Fun.
20:27:16 * pikhq is already being crazy, and thinking of ways to optimise the compiler. . .
20:28:15 <Razor-X> This isn't going to be too optimized. Just a expand-as-needed tape.
20:28:23 <Razor-X> But I mean, that's all you really need.
20:28:44 <pikhq> Maybe get it to run each loop, and test to see if it does something which can be more easily summed up in a simple C instruction?
20:29:28 <pikhq> Like, instead of [>-<+], it'd do *p=*(p++);*(p++)=0;?
20:30:10 <Razor-X> That's incredibly trivial, come on.
20:30:20 <Razor-X> You can write that in sed in a few minutes.
20:31:15 <pikhq> A highly optimising DBF->C compiler. . .
20:32:05 <Razor-X> This is going to be odd. It's going to compile BF to its own language and then interpret it.
20:32:12 <Razor-X> So it's like a compiler/interpreter.
20:32:46 <pikhq> Mine's going to interpret little bits of it in order to try and optimise it. . .
20:33:26 <Razor-X> Have fun! *makes thumbs-up sign*
20:34:42 <Razor-X> I guess I forgot the ASCII code for newline :(.
20:35:43 <pikhq> Come on, newline, damn you!
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20:36:41 <pikhq> I assure you, it's ASCII 10.
20:37:12 <pikhq> And LF is \n, or newline.
20:37:47 <Razor-X> I believe the internet works on CR/LF basis.
20:38:26 <Razor-X> !bf +++++[>++>+++<<-]>.>--.
20:38:45 <pikhq> It's Windows that does CR/Lf.
20:38:55 <Razor-X> No, the internet uses CR/LF.
20:39:23 <lindi-_> Razor-X: you mean HTTP 1.0?
20:39:28 <Razor-X> Meaning that it's accepted as a general standard that a newline in a TCP stream is CR/LF.
20:39:37 <Razor-X> If it makes you feel happy to be pedantic :P.
20:39:50 <pikhq> !bf ++++++++++++++++[>++<-]>.<++++++++++.
20:39:53 <lindi-_> Razor-X: no it's not, i just wrote a daemon that wants unix style newlines
20:40:10 <pikhq> Razor-X: It's only the Windows world that does CR/LF.
20:40:23 <pikhq> In general, Internet protocols use LF.
20:40:44 <lindi-_> pikhq: can you name a few?
20:40:49 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: It's only Windows that uses LF. . . Everyone else uses either LF or CR (old-style makes).
20:40:56 <pikhq> lindi-_: Unix style newline is LF.
20:40:57 <Razor-X> Line-translation specifies how end-of-line characters will be translated when reading or writing to the socket. If this is unspecified or #f, then lines will be terminated by cr-lf, which is the standard for most internet protocols.
20:41:12 <lindi-_> pikhq: i mean, can you name a few such protocols
20:41:53 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newline Have fun.
20:42:15 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm going to continue supporting Razor-X here. Wether you guys like it or not, WinDOS is the standard, and as such, CR/LF is the most common form of a newline.
20:42:20 <Razor-X> Plus, when I wrote my IRC bot, Haskell uses the local LF as a newline, but a CR used to creep in the protocol.
20:42:45 <Razor-X> I had to make sure the trailing CR was taken out when writing the bot.
20:44:11 <lindi-_> pikhq: the page you linked has "Most textual Internet protocols ... use of ASCII CR+LF"
20:44:22 <lindi-_> pikhq: and not LF as you said :/
20:45:34 <pikhq> lindi-_: Who the hell decided "Oh, hey! Let's use Windows and DOS's specs, instead of the other OS's specs, which drives our network!"
20:45:49 <Razor-X> pikhq: It's not ``who the hell'', it's actually a pretty smart reason.
20:45:52 <pikhq> After all, that decision was sort-of made before DOS and Windows were on the Internet. . .
20:45:56 <Razor-X> I believe the reason was decided even before Windows came.
20:46:12 <pikhq> Razor-X: What? Using CRLF when everyone on it used LF?
20:46:22 <pikhq> Somehow, that doesn't make sense.
20:46:25 <Razor-X> If you read the Project Gutenberg FAQ, the reason CR/LF was chosen is because UNIX based machines used CR and Apple based machines used LF.
20:46:43 <Razor-X> Therefore you generate a newline on *both* platforms, only with an extraneous character.
20:47:08 <Razor-X> It was designed for portability in applications, IIRC.
20:48:07 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm think the teletype control-codes thing is more likely it originally happened, but I can believe that PG did it for that reason.
20:48:26 <Razor-X> PG did it for cross compatibility, yeah.
20:48:41 <Razor-X> That way newlines work for all three platforms at once.
20:49:12 -!- lindi-_ has changed nick to lindi-.
20:49:25 <Razor-X> Better than no newlines :P.
20:49:34 <lindi-> i'm not sure about that
20:49:43 <lindi-> at least the user would notice that the file is broken
20:50:04 <lindi-> now the file can look ok but still utilities can fail to parse it
20:50:04 <Razor-X> Well, the only thing you would get is a trailing \r or \p on Linux or Mac machines.
20:50:36 <Razor-X> Well, if you're parsing it, yeah you'll have to substitute out the extraneous character.
20:51:13 <Razor-X> But you know that no-one will agree on a standard (I like LF only because it's a lower number, and it's only one character, so you keep size down to a minimum).
20:51:59 <pikhq> Razor-X: LF is UNIX, CR is old Apple.
20:52:25 <pikhq> Now, it's only CRLF (Windows) and LF (everyone else). . .
20:52:25 <Razor-X> It's another one of those Useless Holy Wars :D.
20:53:39 <pikhq> CRLF hearkens back to the days of paper terminals. . .
20:54:25 <pgimeno> why o why didn't the ASCII code designers add a "line terminator" character?
20:54:37 <Razor-X> Yeah, I was thinking the same thing -_-''.
20:55:02 <Razor-X> They added ETX, but everyone uses their own EOF instead of ETX.
20:55:24 <pikhq> All I know is that Unicode has fixed that. . .
20:55:38 <pgimeno> and why is LF the UNIX line terminator and CR the code generated by the Enter key?
20:55:42 <Razor-X> Thing is, people add things because they feel like it, and people then defend it to the death because it becomes their religion.
20:56:01 <Razor-X> Code generated by the Enter key *should* be EOT.
20:56:26 <pikhq> By simply stating that all Unicode implementations must accept LF, CR, LF, NEL (Next Line), FF (Form Feed), Ls (Line Seperator), and PS (Paragraph Seperator) as newlines. ;)
20:56:39 <lindi-> pgimeno: what do you mean it is generated by enter key?
20:56:46 <lindi-> pgimeno: keyboard does not know about ASCII afaik
20:57:07 <pgimeno> lindi-: well, most systems translate the ENTER keycode into CR
20:57:25 <pikhq> lindi-: The BIOS can either translate to ASCII or leave as seperate keycodes, though.
20:58:08 <pgimeno> good ol' INT 16h returned CR for Enter
21:00:29 <pgimeno> pikhq: heh, I've just found http://www.w3.org/TR/newline
21:23:05 <CakeProphet> Does assigning a pre-existing variable a new value cut down on memory costs?
21:23:21 <CakeProphet> Like.. instead of making a new variable.. you replace an old one?
21:26:19 <pikhq> It's better to just use descriptive variable names.
21:26:31 <pikhq> They're there for your sanity's sake, after all. . .
21:29:00 <Razor-X> Cool, so the base is pretty much done. Time to make a parser.
21:29:15 * pikhq might want to actually work on his idea. . .
21:29:30 <Razor-X> CakeProphet: ... Yeah, it's even cheaper to directly reference function results.
21:29:47 <Razor-X> The more variables you use, the more beginner-ish your program looks.
21:32:28 <CakeProphet> Oh... you mean just put the function in the variable rather than giving its own variable?
21:32:56 <Razor-X> You probably can do it even less.
21:32:59 * CakeProphet tries to recycle his variables in clever ways.
21:33:09 <Razor-X> Code in Haskell and you'll really realize that you very rarely need variables at all.
21:33:26 <Razor-X> (Since Haskell doesen't give you variables.)
21:33:30 <CakeProphet> Hard to imagine... but I can see what you mean.
21:33:50 <CakeProphet> Well... it uses function arguements... which are a kind of "variable".
21:34:56 <Razor-X> They're local bindings, since they're scope expires outside of the local chunk of code.
21:35:56 <Razor-X> Yep. Now to write the parser for BF, and when I know that works, I'll simply extend the parser for DBF and all should work out fine.
21:37:43 <CakeProphet> It would seem that local bindings would require memory... since the computer needs to recognize that the variable is only usable in a certain chunk.
21:39:14 <Razor-X> But unless you redefine the definition of a function parameter that seems more-or-less universal in all computer languages, you're going to need those bindings *anyways*.
21:39:38 <Razor-X> But in actuality, I'll be going to a stupid place that talks about Indian property, and then I have to do my Japanese words for the day, and finish off some more of my summer homework. *Then* I can come back and write the parser.
21:43:03 <CakeProphet> Too bad you can't save memory by somehow creating a single variable that holds multiple values.
21:43:38 <CakeProphet> But arrays use about the same amount of memory as multiple variables right?
21:44:39 <Razor-X> I would think they take up more memory than an array, seeing how they're all cons'ed to each other, but I'm not sure.
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22:10:05 <CakeProphet> I'm going to create a BF parser in Python...
22:10:19 <CakeProphet> and then... with that BF parser... construct a Python interpreter.
22:10:38 * pikhq thinks about how to design his little interpreter for the purpose of optimisation. . .
22:11:17 <CakeProphet> Use a single variable instead of an array.
22:12:18 <pikhq> I want to use an interpreter function to be able to run each loop in some Brainfuck code so that it can see what each loop does to the array.
22:13:18 * CakeProphet wishes he had a way to quickly see every variable in every state change of a program.
22:13:35 <lindi-> CakeProphet: odb does that
22:13:35 <pikhq> So that instead of doing several lines to get "32" in the array, it could do, say, "*p=(*p)*5;". . .
22:14:20 <pikhq> If this could be done, it'd make optimising the output code very efficient.
22:14:37 <CakeProphet> Use a series of integers bound to a single variable... that'll save you like what... 4 bytes?
22:14:59 <pikhq> No, instead of the more direct translation of +++++[>+++++<-]. . .
22:15:18 <pikhq> It's a DBF compiler.
22:15:41 <pikhq> Examine the code before doing a braindead compilation, so that it can do a much smarter compilation.
22:16:20 <CakeProphet> It could count the repetitions of something before actually doing anything.
22:16:43 <CakeProphet> Keep reading until a symbol change... count out the number of same symbols... and then perform them all at once? Would that be more efficient?
22:17:34 <CakeProphet> symbol change... there were 3 +'s... so perform them now.
22:17:56 * CakeProphet was roleplaying a computer program... freaky... :P
22:18:27 <CakeProphet> And then doing something special for loops
22:20:11 <CakeProphet> Hmmm... for loops it could take the value of the current cell, scan over the loop, then multiply the values of each operation by three... no idea how that's more efficient (at all) but it sounds neato.
22:20:33 <CakeProphet> By "three" I mean to say "The value of CurrentCell"
22:20:39 <RodgerTheGreat> in order to optimize a program, you'd have to identify higher-level constructs. A useful step could be to replace all >> and < with references to variables
22:21:42 <RodgerTheGreat> but, for example, you'd want the compiler to identify an entire multiply construct, and just replace it with an instruction to load that value into memory
22:22:08 <RodgerTheGreat> several compilation passes would probably be the best way to do it.
22:22:37 <CakeProphet> Instead of readining it symbol-for-symbol... incrementing the pointer too many times... it could just read << and <<< as the variables themselves.
22:23:00 <RodgerTheGreat> "break it up", (rather than down) into a higher-level language until you have something that can be more efficiently turned into assembly.
22:23:38 <pikhq> I'm trying to get it to evaluate what each loop does, so that I can transform the stuff done by that loop into a higher-level construct. . .
22:24:03 <pikhq> At least, that's what I'm thinking about having it do.
22:24:03 <RodgerTheGreat> interestingly, really inefficient code would probably be the easiest to abstract into something C-like
22:24:08 <CakeProphet> I like the idea of just using three or four variables to do everything.
22:24:35 <pikhq> And having it replace > and < with variables would actually make it easy to evaluate. . .
22:25:58 <RodgerTheGreat> the actual conversion could get a bit tricky (because > and < represent relative addressing), but certainly not insurmountable
22:25:58 <pikhq> This could be a rather large project. . .
22:26:25 <RodgerTheGreat> you're effectively talking about making a BF disassembler.
22:26:33 <CakeProphet> array = 0000 point = 1 if CurrentSymbol == ">": poiner = pointer*10 if CurrentSymbol == "+": array = array + pointer
22:26:50 <pikhq> Once I've got this done, though, it could really kick ass.
22:27:23 <pikhq> I'll probably write it as a C/Tcl hybrid. . .
22:27:38 <CakeProphet> But then you have the problem of having values greater than 10... so that won't work right.
22:28:59 <pikhq> CakeProphet: I assure you: It's stupid trying to do everything in three or four variables.
22:29:19 <pikhq> Efficient, maybe, but it'll drive you insane, and I don't want to be the one maintaining the code after you.
22:30:09 <pikhq> In the real world, the programmer's spent time is much more important the computational time. . .
22:31:01 <CakeProphet> It's cool though.. like solving a puzzle ^_^
22:32:50 <pikhq> I simply must get this idea written.
22:34:46 <pikhq> This evaluator is going to be the hard part. . .
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22:40:09 <lament> i registered for university!
22:53:47 <GregorR> I'm getting no grants whatsoever this year X_X
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22:56:37 <ihope> What if I posted a programming language which consisted of copyright notices on the wiki? :-)
22:59:41 <pikhq> Let us join together to create the ultimate in Brainfuck compilers! :p
23:00:45 <CakeProphet> I just built a BF interpreter... well I'm working on it... and I need a quick way to convert shit into ASCII...
23:00:48 <ihope> This program is copyright (C) ihope 2072. This program is copyright (C) ihope 2101. This program is copyright (C) ihope 2108. This program is copyright (C) ihope 2108.
23:01:18 <ihope> CakeProphet: I know how to do it in C, and how to do it in Haskell...
23:01:31 <ihope> And probably Pascal, too.
23:01:45 <ihope> Nah, not Pascal. C and Haskell.
23:02:11 * pikhq would ideally like to make this Brainfuck implementation support a lot of different Brainfuck variants. . .
23:03:00 * pikhq has far too many ideas in his head
23:03:02 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: I know.
23:03:24 <pikhq> Likewise, BF can trivially be compiled into DBF. ;)
23:03:47 <pikhq> It's only a matter of stripping characters that are comments in BF but not DBF. ;)
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23:05:52 <CakeProphet> Now I'm trying to figure out how to use Python's encode method to encode input into a series of digits.
23:06:17 <ihope> A series of digits?
23:06:23 * pikhq is going to go out and design the overall architecture of this thing. . .
23:06:27 <ihope> What do you need series of digits for?
23:07:10 <CakeProphet> Okay... just so I know... in the traditional BF implementation... does , accept characters or just BF code?
23:07:57 <ihope> It usually accepts a character and puts its ASCII value into the cell, I think.
23:08:33 <CakeProphet> So that's what I'm doing... figuring out how to use Python's encode to encode text into an ASCII value.
23:11:45 <ihope> What does encode do, exactly?
23:12:34 <ihope> Hmm... apparently Python has ord() and chr() just like Haskell.
23:12:49 <ihope> ord() = character to integer, chr() = integer to character.
23:13:10 <pikhq> I'm going to have this compiler be slightly traditional in architecture: Frontends for the various BF variants, which compile into an intermediate language. Then, we run the optimisation routines on the intermediate code, and pass it through to the backends, which output the final code.
23:13:50 <pikhq> Seems a tried & true design, and makes for a clean architecture. . .
23:13:58 <CakeProphet> ihope, str() returns a string representation of whatever you put in it.... and int() returns an integer of something.
23:14:22 <ihope> Is str() like Haskell's show?
23:14:31 <ihope> What happens if you put a string into it?
23:14:46 <CakeProphet> I was just about to find out... as it might be my solution.
23:15:43 <CakeProphet> ValueError: invalid literal for int(): lol
23:16:56 <CakeProphet> str() is more flexible than int()... str() will pretty much return anything as a string.
23:24:25 <CakeProphet> | S.translate(table [,deletechars]) -> string
23:24:28 <CakeProphet> | Return a copy of the string S, where all characters occurring
23:24:30 <CakeProphet> | in the optional argument deletechars are removed, and the
23:24:31 <CakeProphet> | remaining characters have been mapped through the given
23:24:33 <CakeProphet> | translation table, which must be a string of length 256.
23:25:12 <ihope> Why not just use ord?
23:25:47 <CakeProphet> Hmmm.. oh.. Python has an ord function... but it might be an alias of int()
23:25:51 <ihope> You want to translate characters into numbers, don't you?
23:26:25 <CakeProphet> All those built-in functions I've never used throw me off guard.
23:29:38 <ihope> <ihope> Hmm... apparently Python has ord() and chr() just like Haskell.
23:30:10 <pikhq> If I were sufficiently insane, I could get this thing running, and make it target Brainfuck (thereby producing highly efficient Brainfuck code). :p
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23:34:49 <pikhq> 79 +++++++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++>+++++++>+++<<<<-]>------.>>-.---.<------.>.>+. [30]
23:37:17 * pikhq wonders what his intermediate language should look like. . .
23:38:35 <ihope> +15[>+6>+7>+3<4-]>-6.>2-.-3.<-6.>.>+.
23:39:51 <pikhq> And now we're back to the issue of how to write the optimising routines.
23:40:12 <pikhq> (although that alone should serve to optimise things a bit)
23:41:46 <pikhq> But I might as well at least try and get a simple frontend written.
23:42:43 <ihope> What sort of error?
23:42:46 <CakeProphet> Well... to make the array infinite.. I attempted to make it nest itself... :D
23:42:57 <CakeProphet> But... that apparently doesn't work in Python.
23:44:18 <ihope> Make it nest itself?
23:44:39 <CakeProphet> Well.. now that I think about it... that wouldn't work anyways.
23:44:44 <ihope> Sounds like generators you're after...
23:46:45 <CakeProphet> ihope, What's the standard size for a BF array?
23:47:01 <ihope> At least 30000 cells.
23:49:50 * CakeProphet makes the program print a list of 30000 0's for him.. so he doesn't have to.
00:00:32 <CakeProphet> Freezing up your interpreter by making it do a lot of shit over and over.
00:01:22 <CakeProphet> ihope, So... how would you recommend doing 30000 0's without blowing something up?
00:03:44 <pikhq> Okay. . . I've got myself a Brainfuck frontend to the "interfuck" language.
00:05:42 <ihope> CakeProphet: not allocating them all at once?
00:06:28 <ihope> You could use generators.
00:06:41 * CakeProphet figures out how to use these mythical generators.
00:07:09 <ihope> Generators can do ANYTHING!
00:08:29 <CakeProphet> Python's documentation on generators confuses me..
00:25:14 * pikhq works on a Doublefuck frontend. . .
00:37:58 <pikhq> I remeber that there was an isomorphism between Doublefuck and Brainfuck, but I can't remember what it is.l
00:50:43 <pikhq> Perhaps I'd be best off defining the intermediate language in such a way that multiple arrays can easily be added.
00:59:40 <pikhq> ihope: Ideas for compiling Doublefuck into the intermediate language?
01:01:22 <lament> CakeProphet: nested arrays work just fine.
01:02:03 * pikhq should probably lay off of this for a bit
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01:19:55 <pikhq> Shouldn't be hard to get this thing to target Brainfuck. . .
01:20:28 <pikhq> Unless I want to add some more features to my intermediate language, enabling it to handle stuff like pbrain and Brainfork, that is. . .
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02:14:17 <Razor-X> Let's see if I can build my parser in 10 minutes or less.
02:18:54 <GregorR> IF YOU SAY NO YOU'RE SLOOOOOOOOOOW
02:19:13 <pikhq> GregorR: What do you think of my insane idea?
02:19:55 <GregorR> I haven't been reading the log.
02:21:58 <Razor-X> Gah. People keep interrupting me!
02:22:07 <pikhq> Razor-X: Don't watch IRC.
02:22:21 <Razor-X> pikhq: No I mean, my parents actually have things for me to do :P.
02:23:38 <Razor-X> Well, the parser 'aint gettin' done. Seems ah gots me an error here.
02:38:10 <GregorR> I was wondering why you were putting "aint gettin" in qutoes ...
02:41:42 <Razor-X> What does the ain't contraction expand to?
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07:04:18 <Razor-X> Wow. This interpreter is turning out a lot longer than I expected it to be.
07:30:11 <GregorR> Wow, there was very briefly a sexteddy in here X-D
07:31:07 <GregorR> Oh, and the "ain't" contraction expands to "is not" for no particular reason.
07:31:49 <Razor-X> That sounds just like English.
07:32:04 <Razor-X> Why did the name change from Inglish to English? There's no particular reason.
07:32:11 <ivan`> ain't can turn into anything you want it to
07:32:24 <Razor-X> Why is it Britain and not Briton even though the latter is more phonetically correct? There's no particular reason.
07:33:41 <GregorR> From now on, I'm using "ai" as an alternative to "is". Pronounced as sort of a nasal "aaah" sound :-P
07:34:40 <Razor-X> That's the English spirit!
07:35:17 <GregorR> Contraction of "it ai" :-P
07:36:21 <Razor-X> Now time to graft attitudnals onto the language.
07:36:32 <Razor-X> How 'bout it. Why don't we add in an attitudnals library onto English?
07:36:54 <fizzie> Wouldn't that be "It'i good."?
07:36:54 <GregorR> import("additudnals.lang");
07:37:04 <fizzie> Since it's normally "it's", not "it'i".
07:37:18 <Razor-X> fizzie: It's that way for no particular reason.
07:37:25 <Razor-X> Haven't you caught onto English logic just yet?
07:38:15 <Razor-X> I suddenly lost motivation for my BF interpreter even though I'm only a few lines away from the finish.
07:38:38 <Razor-X> Now it'll probably stay unfinished forever as I go onto the real project I had meant to start, but used the BF interpreter for practice.
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13:04:59 <pikhq> GregorR: You do know that "ain't" is a pointless slang usage that makes you sound somewhat uneducated, right?
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16:12:19 <GregorR> pikhq: Yes, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a correct usage.
16:12:40 <GregorR> And, for that matter, "y'all" has the same connotation but is far more valuable of a linguistic construct.
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17:33:55 <pikhq> GregorR: But the distinction between "thou" and "you" is proper English (if a bit archaic). ;)
17:42:09 <GregorR-W> "Proper English" is a relative term - English has no overseer.
17:45:03 <pikhq> It could be worse. "Proper English" could be defined by, say, the 1337-5p34k3|2'5 standards body. :p
17:45:48 * pikhq much prefers a mild level of anarchy over. . . That. *shudder*
17:46:28 <GreyKnight> http://www.aeforge.com/aeforum/showpost.php?p=46488
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17:58:51 <GregorR-W> I didn't read that, but saw a bit of it.
17:59:25 <GreyKnight> A terrifying dystopian vision of the future
18:18:45 <GreyKnight> idea: a language based on the idea of thumb-twiddling
18:21:03 <GregorR-W> Thumb twiddling can be done in either direction, therefore it has at least one bit, therefore NetBSD should boot on it.
18:24:21 <GreyKnight> You have two thumbs, which can be either stationary, twiddling clockwise, or twiddling anticlockwise
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18:26:20 <GregorR-W> It's difficult/impossible to twiddle your thumbs in opposite directions in proper "twiddling position"
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18:30:10 <Razor-X> Hey-o and goodbye Blahbot.
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19:02:44 * pikhq really needs to extend his "interfuck" thing. . .
19:09:50 <pikhq> It's the intermediate language for my Brainfuck compiler.
19:10:22 <pikhq> That's what I'm calling it.
19:29:15 * pikhq is going to plan out additional features and such for this. . .
19:32:31 <Razor-X> My almost-complete interpreter just used a parser to parse BF into Scheme code, and then executed the Scheme code.
19:32:32 <GregorR-W> DAMN YOU TO THE FIREY PITS OF FALSE ADVERTIZING
19:32:49 <pikhq> Razor-X: I'm going all-out on this. :)
19:32:54 <Razor-X> Gregor, it's ``ADVERTISING''.
19:33:49 <GregorR-W> Now I have to try to bring a pair of shoes back after about five weeks again X_X
19:33:56 <GregorR-W> Five weeks of not wearing it, mind you.
19:34:57 <Razor-X> I'm writing an IRC bot instead. The old Haskell one needed some tune-ups.
19:35:44 <pikhq> Hell, if I do this well enough, I might be able to get some support for things like 1337. . .
19:36:08 <Razor-X> At this point, it negotiates the connection and promptly quits.
19:36:58 <Razor-X> Well, school starts tomorrow, so today I won't have much time to code the bot, so I probably won't get to the code to keep it from timing out until later tonight.
19:37:44 * pikhq ends up having a lot of free time during school. . .
19:37:47 <Razor-X> But I'm finding that I actually coded the internals of my Haskell bot pretty well.
19:37:58 <pikhq> Hell; I'm in IRC during class right now.
19:38:08 <Razor-X> I don't have any computer classes this year.
19:38:15 <Razor-X> I don't have time in my schedule -- at all.
19:38:32 <lament> I don't have time. I'm light-like.
19:38:33 <Razor-X> 4 AP classes and one normal class. I don't even have the Arts and P.E. classes I need to graduate done yet.
19:38:40 * pikhq is leaving for lunch in $very_soon
19:38:47 <lament> Razor-X: you're in *high school*?
19:38:55 <lament> Razor-X: and you think you *don't have time*?
19:39:06 <Razor-X> I don't have time, *in school*.
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20:57:25 * GreyKnight asks CakeProphet if there's any cake coming his way in the near future.
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22:00:27 <CakeProphet> Hmmm... I got to thinking... that = and != are really just the same thing.
22:01:02 <GregorR-W> Yeah, one of them being not-equality ...
22:01:08 <CakeProphet> So for some hypothetical language... I think it would be neato to have multiple equality types... not sure why that'd be useful... but it sounds fun.
22:04:51 <CakeProphet> I'm going really bizzare with this one... unusual control flow statements, an entirely different system of mathematical operations (different than the usual + - / * )
22:06:42 <GreyKnight> Anyway, from a mathematician's point of view, you could have something along those lines for the operations
22:07:01 <GreyKnight> It'd require some checking to make sure you can still "do" everything with them, though
22:07:37 <GreyKnight> I'm not sure about the otherequalities... some sort of abstract relation
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22:08:25 <CakeProphet> Hmm... anyone get those last two things I said?
22:08:35 <GreyKnight> Last I heard from you was "Dunno intercal."
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22:08:54 <GreyKnight> Then I waffled about some abstract mathematical ideas for you
22:09:28 <CakeProphet> I was thinking of a "sarcasm" statement... which checks to see if something is undefined... and returns True (or some other type of bool)
22:10:09 <GreyKnight> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relation_%28mathematics%29
22:10:17 <GreyKnight> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_%28mathematics%29
22:10:50 <GreyKnight> These two cover abstract relations (==, !=, <, >, ...) and operations (+, -, /, *, ...), which might be relevant
22:13:49 * CakeProphet wants to make multiple equality/assignment types... and then a "not equal" for each type.. and then in addition the ability to check the equality of different assignments using the different equality types.
22:13:56 <CakeProphet> Eh... complicated... I'm not even sure myself how it works.
22:14:26 <GreyKnight> well, you could certainly pull it off...
22:14:52 <GreyKnight> In fact, there are essentially an infinite number of ways to do it; hard part is picking one
22:15:38 <GreyKnight> I suppose the more complex the better, here :-)
22:15:56 <GreyKnight> You should represent numbers in base-pi notation while you're at it :-D
22:17:06 <GreyKnight> But this would make your language the first one capable of representing pi exactly
22:18:25 <GreyKnight> Something that redefines +, -, etc to be something not-too-difficult but still *different*
22:18:27 <CakeProphet> I've sort of got too many ideas jumbling around to put them all into one thing.
22:19:49 <CakeProphet> Hmmm... and then one equality type could check for equality of equality types between two values. :D
22:19:54 <GreyKnight> You'll want your new +,* to still be able to make a field out of the set of real numbers, if you know what that means
22:20:06 <GreyKnight> I can generate some that do that for you
22:23:05 <CakeProphet> Like positive and negative... but like five of them :D
22:23:45 <CakeProphet> And then different operations that do different things to different kinds of numbers.
22:24:36 <CakeProphet> In typical math, + adds positive values, and - adds negative... so what happens when you stretch it out into 5 or 6 dimensions instead of 2?
22:24:37 <GreyKnight> You could use complex numbers, disguised as something else?
22:24:53 <GreyKnight> Or go to quaternions, with all sorts of fun
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22:27:07 <jix> with complex numbers you'd get normal, negated, conjugated, and negated+conjugated
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22:27:58 <lament> wtf is he talking about.
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22:28:17 <lament> CakeProphet: what 2 dimensions?
22:28:33 <GreyKnight> Hardest part with using complex numbers is disguising them so the user gets a brain meltdown :-)
22:28:37 <CakeProphet> Argh... what did you say after quaterions?
22:28:47 <jix> CakeProphet: nothing
22:28:48 <GreyKnight> <jix> with complex numbers you'd get normal, negated, conjugated, and negated+conjugated
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22:29:02 <jix> ah well if it was a non singular you GreyKnight is right
22:29:03 <CakeProphet> positive and negative... two dimensions of polarity.
22:29:10 <jix> CakeProphet: one dimension
22:29:33 <jix> because it's either positive or negative.... it can't be a combination
22:29:44 <ihope> Direction + opposite direction = dimension.
22:29:56 <jix> with complex numbers you'd get two dimensions... one for the real part one for the imaginary one
22:29:59 <GreyKnight> the real numbers exists in one dimension (the real line), the complex exist in two (the complex plane), and the quaternions in 4 (Happy Fun Ball)
22:30:06 * CakeProphet isn't sure he wants combinations of polarity ... but it sounds like fun. ^_^
22:30:15 <GreyKnight> IIRC you can't reasonably extend the numbers to 3 dimensions
22:30:21 <lament> you people are all on crack.
22:30:25 <lament> GreyKnight: it's called 3-vectors.
22:30:38 * ihope attempts to reasonable extend the numbers to 3 dimensions
22:30:54 <jix> lament: and it's still a uhm how ist it called in english...
22:31:13 <GreyKnight> An extension of the complex numbers to three dimensions, such that all the mathematical operations are closed over the set
22:31:21 <CakeProphet> I was thinking of having 7 types of polarity... with each set of two being opposites, and then having a single one on its own.
22:31:28 <lament> GreyKnight: why "of the complex numbers"?
22:31:51 <lament> GreyKnight: all the standard mathematical operations on 3-vectors are closed over 3-vectors. (except for cross product.. duh)
22:32:02 <ihope> i^2 = -1, j^2 = -i, 1^2 = j... j = 1, 1^2 = -i, 1^2 = -1?
22:32:18 <CakeProphet> positive-to-negative, blah-to-meh, pepsi-to-coke, and then a single measure called Jesus or something.
22:32:19 <jix> lament: are 3-vectors still a field?
22:32:38 <jix> because real, complex and quaternions are
22:32:51 <ihope> CakeProphet: so there's no negative Jesus?
22:32:54 <GreyKnight> vectors are a sideshow - complex and hypercomplex numbers are where the real mathematical action is
22:33:05 <CakeProphet> Don't ask me how... I'm still figuring that out.
22:33:46 <jix> do you know that the positive reals are a field to?
22:34:21 <GreyKnight> Oh? What's the additive inverse of 3 in the positive reals?
22:34:23 <ihope> So subtraction and opposites aren't field operations?
22:34:48 <GreyKnight> I guess you could redefine +, but you didn't mention that
22:34:54 <CakeProphet> So... a number might look like.... hmmm.... +%^5? Or would it look like +5%6^4
22:34:59 <jix> GreyKnight: well the definition of field doesn't say that those uhm THINGS (don't know how it's called) has to be + and *
22:36:02 <jix> well i'm no expert for this... ai'm just in grade 11
22:36:43 <jix> uhm.. 15-17 i think
22:37:11 <GreyKnight> well, you're probably ahead of your peers then :-P
22:37:14 <jix> CakeProphet: 17 in the 10th?
22:37:33 <jix> ah wait yes...
22:37:44 <jix> argh... totally forgot my whole class skipped a year
22:38:11 <jix> well not really skipped but squeezed 5 into 4 years
22:38:37 * ihope feels a sudden need to eat something resembling toast
22:39:06 <jix> replace toast with cornflakes
22:44:11 <GreyKnight> I feel old when all the other people on IRC are teenagers :'(
22:44:43 <ihope> And how old are we?
22:45:36 <lament> somewhere between 21 and 28?
22:47:19 <GreyKnight> You're not old! You're barely middle-aged!
22:47:37 <lament> does that mean i'm gonna die at 44?
22:49:54 <kipple_> hmm. appears I am the oldest so far...
22:52:12 <GreyKnight> We need a language that's designed to be implementable with lego bricks.
22:52:39 -!- anonfunc has quit (Connection timed out).
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22:53:29 <GreyKnight> I love the idea of it, I just can't think how to pull it off :-(
22:53:49 <ihope> Red brick means output, blue brick means subtract, yellow brick means input, and green brick means jump.
22:53:51 <kipple_> If you use the RCX brick it becomes trivial...
22:54:38 <ihope> Wait... you mean the programs would consist of Lego bricks, or the machine running them would?
22:55:29 <GreyKnight> The former, although the latter would be an obvious next step
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22:56:08 <GreyKnight> Obviously something involving sequences of colours is trivial, like ihope's suggestion
22:56:48 <GreyKnight> But I'm trying to think of something that can take advantage of lego's three-dimensionality
22:59:51 <ihope> I never said that this would *only* be sequences of colors, though :-)
23:00:10 <GreyKnight> I'm thinking a 2-D plane of stacks of blocks
23:00:39 <GreyKnight> With a/some instruction pointer(s) that roam the field and ascend the stacks to perform actions
23:01:09 <GreyKnight> stacks can also be viewed as encoding numbers, and are addressable as storage locations
23:01:23 <ihope> Maybe we could forget the jump instruction and use the shapes of the stacks to jump.
23:02:06 <ihope> Like... a stack is like a mini-program, and it would be executed from top to bottom. Once the bottom is reached, something's done.
23:02:56 <GreyKnight> How about if each IP uses the next two numbers on its personal stack to determine a relative position at which to find the next stack to execute?
23:03:01 <ihope> Or maybe the main execution stuff would simply choose a position and run down through it, changing the bricks as it goes...
23:03:17 <GreyKnight> for bonus points, have their personal stacks existing as actual stacks of blocks on the field :-)
23:05:14 <ihope> Nah, the blocks themselves would be used as storage.
23:05:29 <GreyKnight> I say use them as storage *and* code >:-)
23:06:22 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
23:06:58 <GreyKnight> For further bonus points, it takes the IPs time to reach their next stack while jumping?
23:07:05 <Razor-X> So a code pointer traverses a set of code blocks and an IP cycles through storage?
23:07:14 <CakeProphet> So.. uh... what insane mathematical shit did I miss?
23:07:37 <CakeProphet> So I think I'm going to hide from all the crazy theoretical math shit.... and go for a more... uh... non-numbers design.
23:08:06 <CakeProphet> As fun as inventing an entirely new system of mathematics is...
23:08:45 <Razor-X> Why were you using complex numbers?
23:08:51 * Razor-X does not have the time to fully go over the logs.
23:09:20 <CakeProphet> I was just using a notation type for representing multi-dimensional polarity... paired with something I'm going to call "multi-dimensional equality"
23:09:25 <GreyKnight> He was talking about generally "extending" number systems, so naturally we got onto that subject
23:09:50 <CakeProphet> positive, negative, cow, omega, chromefuck, lala, Jesus...
23:09:55 <Razor-X> Multi-dimensional equality?
23:10:09 <Razor-X> Oh, you mean attaching alternate dimensions to a quantity.
23:10:21 <CakeProphet> I got the idea from thinking about = and !=... which are essentially two "types" of equality... they just happen to be the inverse of each other.
23:10:28 <Razor-X> I had the idea when I was younger of representing numbers in a vector of n-elements, and I had a rudimentary set of equivalence predicates done.
23:11:09 <Razor-X> You should look at the postulates of Zermelo-Franklin set theory and the Fundamental Arithmetic Law for some ideas on the stuff.
23:11:11 <CakeProphet> b != 3.... it's essentially saying that it equals three, but only in this type of equality.
23:11:28 <GreyKnight> There is no escape from the abstract algebra!
23:11:32 <CakeProphet> b = 3 is false... thus b != three... which brings us back to our original statement.
23:12:13 <lament> CakeProphet: well, in Math, there's a set of rules an equivalence operation has to conform to.
23:12:23 <lament> CakeProphet: = happens to conform to them, and != does not.
23:12:29 <GreyKnight> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_relation
23:12:31 <CakeProphet> So you could have multi-dimensional equality.... $= %= $= #=
23:13:26 <lament> more appropriately, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalence_relation
23:13:57 <lament> != breaks reflexivity and transitivity.
23:14:30 <GreyKnight> lament: well, the full abstract treatment might be a bit *too* abstract for a non-specialist :-)
23:14:41 <GreyKnight> and I gather he's only talking about binary relations
23:14:56 <ihope> Reflexivity, symmetry, transivity... anythingelse?
23:15:21 <lament> GreyKnight: equivalence relations are binary relations
23:16:00 <GreyKnight> oh wait, I thought you'd posted http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relation_%28mathematics%29
23:16:23 <lament> CakeProphet: a "real" equivalence relation other than == is for example (a mod 2 == b mod 2)
23:17:03 <lament> CakeProphet: what is your subject?
23:17:28 <jix> i like math
23:17:32 <jix> i like music too
23:17:38 <jix> uh yeah lego rules!
23:18:30 <jix> with math and lego i even won competitions...
23:18:35 <jix> with music i didn't...
23:18:46 <jix> but i did competitions in all those things
23:19:02 <CakeProphet> so.. er... standard mathematics aside.. I think having types of equivalence is do-able in a language.
23:23:28 <lament> scheme has eq?, eqv?, equal? and =
23:24:03 <GreyKnight> which I guess are isomorphic to the scheme ones :-)
23:24:38 <GreyKnight> I don't think that's quite what CakeProphet has in mind, though, he's just not got the words to express it any better...
23:25:07 * CakeProphet really only halfway knows what he's talking about.
23:25:40 <GreyKnight> If you can construct an example of one of your new relations in action we might get a better idea
23:32:56 <CakeProphet> This might be a little bit jumpy... since I don't have the idea fully conceptualized... but let's say we invent four operations.... cow, scree, flub, and kuma each a type of equality, with relational properties to other types of equality... anything that cow-equals 5 will not scree-equal 5.... but might flub-equal five.... each type of relationship has relationships amongst...
23:32:58 <CakeProphet> ...themselves.... maybe everything that cow-equals will also flub-equal.... but anything that flub-equals will not nessicarily cow-equal... and then something that scree-equals may cow-equal any value -except- the value that scree-equals... so each represent equality, but when compared with conditional logic the different types of equality will behave differently to each other.
23:33:18 <CakeProphet> In fact... the language itself might be able to invent new types of equality that relate to the pre-existing types...
23:33:35 <CakeProphet> Just random ideas... nothing that would be useful or make much sense at all.
23:34:40 <GreyKnight> I think that could be turned into a Venn diagram?
23:35:17 <pikhq> Or maybe he'll end up with "not equal, equal, sort-of equal, halluciongenically equal. . ." :p
23:35:20 <CakeProphet> you could even have it so that if something kuma-equals 4... then it will cow-equal any number.
23:36:07 <GreyKnight> I think this will be either (a) useless, or (b) the next INTERCAL
23:36:29 <ihope> "anything that cow-equals 5 will not scree-equal 5"
23:36:40 <ihope> 5 will have to both cow-equal 5 and scree-equal 5.
23:36:56 <GreyKnight> Being useless is pretty much their entire reason for being
23:37:09 <pikhq> Being useless is what they're used for!
23:37:35 <ihope> CakeProphet: well, if you want them to actually be equality operations.
23:38:49 <ihope> Any equality operation has to have 5 and 5 be equal.
23:38:55 <GreyKnight> Or is "a @= b" more like asserting that (a,b) belongs to a certain set T_@ ?
23:39:12 <CakeProphet> ihope, Within the scope of one equality type... 5 will equal 5
23:39:16 <GreyKnight> that made pretty much not any improved amount of sense...
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23:42:46 <CakeProphet> if x (= 305823095823985902834908: print False else: True
23:43:24 <GreyKnight> Okay, as I see it you have some, apparently pretty arbitrary sets of pairs of numbers
23:43:53 <GreyKnight> each relation "a $= b" means that the pair (a,b) belongs to the particular set T_$
23:44:11 <GreyKnight> So T_= contains (0,0), (1,1), (2,2), ...
23:44:46 <GreyKnight> T_! (for !=) is just the inverse of T_=, contains everything that's not in it
23:45:13 <GreyKnight> And the other T_$, T_#, T_lolwhut contain various semi-random collections of pairs which may or may not intersect
23:46:09 <GreyKnight> presumably there'd be some actual function for determining which pairs belong to the set
23:46:23 <GreyKnight> keeping actual lists of numbers to compare against would be muy wasteful
23:46:44 <CakeProphet> Whether or not something that $='s 5 will also %= 2 depends on the relationship between the $= and %= operators.
23:48:32 <GreyKnight> You define these extra relations purely in terms of the relationships between them, then have the computer use that information to calculate what the relations actually are
23:48:33 <CakeProphet> Just like if x = 5... then x != 5 will return False
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23:49:54 <GreyKnight> You couldn't rely on it having a unique solution to any arbitrary set of relationships between them, though
23:50:02 <CakeProphet> In my hypothetical language... != would be a type of equality that directly relates to =... so that it something that ='s 5 will != everything except five.
23:50:43 <GreyKnight> DEFINE NEW RELATION != WHERE a==b IMPLIES NOT a!=b
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23:51:17 <GreyKnight> I just picked a random syntax for ease of expression
23:51:22 <CakeProphet> It'd be really easy to use an OO design scheme for definiing the relationships... but I want to make it confusing ^_^
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23:52:03 <CakeProphet> It's already confusing enough as is... and I have no clue how this would tie in with strings :D
23:52:18 <GreyKnight> in order to apply it to actual numbers, you will have to touch base with the regular mathematical relations at some point
23:52:50 <GreyKnight> DEFINE NEW RELATION $= WHERE a$=b IMPLIES (a+5)==(b*6)
23:53:25 <GreyKnight> for at least *one* of the new operators
23:53:47 <GreyKnight> and the others could maybe then just be defined in terms of it and/or each other
23:54:22 <GreyKnight> as long as there's a chain of implications leading back to the regular relations, the computer should be able to trawl through it to apply the relations to actual numbers
23:54:39 <CakeProphet> That wouldn't work for variable assignment.
23:54:55 <CakeProphet> It would only work for conditional testing.
23:55:46 <CakeProphet> The way I see it... the equality types can also be used as assignment.
23:55:49 <GreyKnight> you can view the assignment "x $= 3" as finding an x such that that expression is true
23:57:06 <GreyKnight> (in that example definition of $= I gave, it's the case that "25 $= 5")
23:57:40 <CakeProphet> I wish I was extremly good at fleshing out parsers... so I could just make random languages?
23:58:01 <CakeProphet> I like the idea of a language that assigns based on not-equals instead of assigning based on =
23:58:17 <GreyKnight> well, you'd have a bit of a problem there...
23:58:35 <GreyKnight> Say you did "ASSIGN x != 5" (is this the sort of thing you mean?"
23:59:02 <GreyKnight> then the interpreter/compiler will have to pick one of the infinite amount of numbers which aren't equal to 5...
23:59:16 <GreyKnight> unless you're suggesting it set x to the entire set of non-5 numbers?
23:59:41 <ihope> Well, there are finite things.
23:59:45 <GreyKnight> so, what value does x receive in that example?
23:59:57 <ihope> That would set x to false.
00:00:07 <CakeProphet> What it would do behind the scenes is assign x to 5... but everything -else- would be running backwards.
00:01:26 <ihope> Are you saying x is true, true is true, x != true is true, or "that would set x to false" is true?
00:01:26 <GreyKnight> well, I was referring to what you said immediately before I wrote, then :-P
00:01:54 <GreyKnight> that you could get away with it in that restricted instance
00:01:59 <CakeProphet> in the compiler... "x != 0" would parse out to be "x = 0" And then "if x = 0" would be parsed in the compiler as "if x != 0"
00:02:29 <GreyKnight> CakeProphet: so, basically invert any equality test involving x (which has some sort of flag set on it)?
00:02:31 <CakeProphet> By flip-flopping it... it would create the illusion of assigning unequality :D
00:02:58 <GreyKnight> If both halves of the equality test have their invert flag set, then you don't need to invert it
00:03:26 <GreyKnight> so ASSIGN x!=5, y!=6; sets the flag on both x and y
00:03:52 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:03:54 <GreyKnight> for the test "x$=0", you invert, for "y$=0" you invert, but for "x$=y" you don't
00:05:09 <ihope> Just have "might be" and "can't be" as the only relations.
00:05:13 <GreyKnight> Well, this is starting to make some kind of sense, but I think you need to be taking the right drugs to really appreciate it.
00:05:55 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
00:05:55 <ihope> f(x,y) might be x, and f(x,y) might be y.
00:06:10 <GreyKnight> I DARE someone to actually implement this
00:06:18 <lament> f(x,y) can't be z where z can't be x, z can't be y
00:06:34 * GreyKnight digs down on a fountain, splashing water all over the channel. lament drowns!
00:06:40 <ihope> not(x) can't be x.
00:06:48 <ihope> There's your not function.
00:07:01 <GreyKnight> <GreyKnight> CakeProphet: what'd you get up to?
00:07:09 <lament> is(a,b) might be true if a might be b
00:07:16 <lament> is(a,b) can't be true if a can't be b
00:07:16 <ihope> Then you can define "might not be" and "must be".
00:07:21 <CakeProphet> GreyKnight>so ASSIGN x!=5, y!=6; sets the flag on both x and y
00:07:36 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:07:58 <ihope> is(a,b) must be true if a must be b.
00:08:10 <lament> it seems that these 'might be' and 'can't be' have the exact same semantics as 'is' and 'is not'
00:08:44 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
00:08:48 <GreyKnight> well, "can't" has the same as "is not"
00:08:50 <ihope> "x might be 3 and x might be 5" is valid, no?
00:08:52 <lament> "x might be 2, y might be 2, x+y can't be 4"
00:09:07 <ihope> GreyKnight: "can't be" is stronger, I think.
00:09:08 <CakeProphet> GreyKnight>so ASSIGN x!=5, y!=6; sets the flag on both x and y
00:09:13 <lament> anyway, shouldn't Prolog already deal with this?
00:09:14 <ihope> And "might be" is weaker than "is".
00:09:21 <GreyKnight> <GreyKnight> for the test "x$=0", you invert, for "y$=0" you invert, but for "x$=y" you don't since the inversions cancel
00:09:21 <lament> ie can't you do all this in Prolog trivially
00:09:26 <ihope> lament: does Prolog have modal logic?
00:09:56 <lament> but i'm thinking this is quite easy to convert to the regular old thing
00:10:30 <GreyKnight> CakeProphet: ihope suggested constructing all the relations out of "can't be" and "might be"
00:10:55 <ihope> How about modal implication?
00:10:58 -!- oerjanj has joined.
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00:11:18 <ihope> Hmm... maybe x might not imply y.
00:11:26 * GreyKnight just knows this will end up at a dialect of Lisp at some point
00:11:42 <ihope> By the way, can you define a functor in Prolog that is only true if its argument yields absurdities?
00:11:55 <ihope> Does Prolog even have absurdities
00:12:15 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
00:12:48 <lament> does "might be" even mean _anything_?
00:13:03 <lament> not really! unless it's exclusive, which it's not
00:13:07 <ihope> lament: x might be true === x does not lead to an absurdity.
00:13:24 <lament> ihope: i'm not sure i understand.
00:13:30 <ihope> GregorR-W: so aren't you going to add products and ranges, so that you can define a factorial like "fac x = product [1..x]"?
00:14:05 <ihope> x might be true == we don't know that x is false.
00:14:07 <GregorR-W> ihope: Maybe as functions. That is, not with that syntaxd.
00:14:28 <GregorR-W> fac = (x){ product(range(1, x)) };
00:14:30 <ihope> x must be true === it's not possible that x is false.
00:15:42 <GreyKnight> Also, there are too many people in here starting with "Gre" ;_;
00:15:51 <GregorR-W> GreyKnight: Hey, I'm using my name :-P
00:15:53 <CakeProphet> we could always employ some chaos theory ^_^
00:16:05 <lament> GreyKnight: so change your nick to GrayKnight, it's less gay anyway.
00:16:13 * GreyKnight reads a blessed scroll of genocide. What class of monsters do you wish to genocide? , Wiped out all newbies. Wiped out all lusers. Wiped out all script kiddies. Wiped out lament.
00:16:32 <ihope> GreyKnight: now let's get GreenReaper in here.
00:16:41 <GregorR-W> CakeProphet: The alternate spelling came from the name.
00:17:01 <GregorR-W> Nowadays, yes, they're all the same.
00:17:09 <Razor-X> This all sounds like a functional language to me.
00:17:20 <Razor-X> Except with built-in pseudo-equality predicates.
00:18:27 <GreyKnight> I wouldn't touch you with a ten-foot polearm.
00:18:41 <lament> not even a greased one?
00:18:41 -!- ihope has changed nick to GayKnight.
00:19:10 -!- GayKnight has changed nick to ihope.
00:19:10 -!- GreyKnight has changed nick to GreyPaladin.
00:19:12 -!- GreyPaladin has changed nick to GreyKnight.
00:19:39 <lament> My, that was a yummy pancakeprophet!
00:19:55 <GreyKnight> I think the NH references might be a bit too obscure in here
00:19:55 <CakeProphet> That uncertainty article explains how uncertainty is measured :D
00:21:33 <lament> GreyKnight: at least 3 people understand them, plus Razor-X plays slashem
00:21:40 <ihope> Something is either certain or uncertain.
00:21:57 * lament dereferences GreyKnight's pointer
00:22:10 <GreyKnight> ihope: I assume he's talking about Ye Olde Heisenberge Principall
00:22:23 <ihope> lament: eew. None of that stuff in here, okay?
00:22:38 <ihope> So who was it that said it would be funny if the level 30 Knight title were "caitiff"?
00:23:50 <GregorR-W> You've prevented me from saying anything but X_X
00:26:03 <lament> time to clean up this channel
00:27:49 <ihope> Hit the road, Jack, and don't you come back...
00:29:58 <lament> but since they have such similar nicks, i guess GreyKnight will have to do
00:30:05 <GregorR-W> Gee, I'm sorry I interrupted your FASCINATING CONVERSATION.
00:30:37 <oerjanj> i might worry if i knew what that meant
00:30:59 <ihope> Oh know! Not the banded!
00:31:49 * pikhq should write an Esolang on his calculator. . .
00:31:55 <ihope> Actually, nobody's +b'd on #esoteric.
00:32:20 <ihope> pikhq: aren't calculators pretty esoteric anyway?
00:33:27 <pikhq> ihope: It's a GCC target.
00:33:27 <pikhq> It also has a (somewhat odd) Lisp variant built in. . .
00:33:35 <ihope> !1 @1 #1 $1 %1 ^1 &1 *1 meh
00:34:36 <ihope> _1 -1 +1 =1 {1 }1 (1 )1 [1 ]1 |1 1
00:34:40 <GreyKnight> My #eval script surely qualifies for that
00:35:13 <ihope> '1 :1 "1 ,1 .1 /1 <1 >1 ?1 meh
00:35:29 * ihope kicks his chat client
00:35:36 <pikhq> GreyKnight: What? Reverse Polish Lisp?
00:36:07 <CakeProphet> 0 = (1*1) + ((-1)* 1) + (1* (-1)) + ((-1)* (-1)) = -1 + ((-1)* (-1))
00:36:09 <GreyKnight> It's a pretty half-assed implementation
00:36:22 <GreyKnight> a side-effect of which is that it's rather odd
00:36:27 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:36:58 <pikhq> I think I'll code in C on it, anyways.
00:37:02 <GreyKnight> bonus points if you hit a function that's actually implemented
00:37:30 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
00:37:41 <pikhq> It's more of "1 2+ 3 4++eval".
00:38:21 <ihope> #eval ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x)))
00:38:28 <CakeProphet> 0 + 1 = (1*1) + ((-1)* 1) + (1* (-1)) + ((-1)* (-1)) = -1 + ((-1)* (-1)) + 1 = -1 x -1 = 1
00:38:53 <pikhq> And it leaves 10 on the stack.
00:39:08 <GreyKnight> pikhq: I've seen something similar before
00:39:20 <pikhq> GreyKnight: It's an HP calculator. Decidely odd. ;)
00:39:25 <ihope> 0 = 0*1 = 0*1^0 = 0^0 = 1
00:40:30 <ihope> #eval ((lambda (x) x) 3)
00:40:34 <lament> You want a ban, i'll give you a ban!!
00:40:56 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o lament.
00:40:56 <Razor-X> #do eval (do ((x 0 (+ x 1))) ((= x 300)) (display "HI!"))
00:40:57 <GreyKnight> #do eval (do ((x 0 (+ x 1))) ((= x 300)) (display "HI!"))
00:41:00 <GreyKnight> #! Error: (998) 'DO' IS NOT A FUNCTION OR A MACRO
00:41:19 <Razor-X> Pfft. It's a special form, bub.
00:41:50 <Razor-X> #do eval (display "Waah. I suck")
00:41:51 <GreyKnight> #! Error: (998) 'BIL' IS NOT A FUNCTION OR A MACRO
00:41:56 <GreyKnight> #! Error: (998) 'DISPLAY' IS NOT A FUNCTION OR A MACRO
00:42:03 -!- lament has set channel mode: +b scwizard!*@*.
00:42:03 <GreyKnight> #! Error: (974) FIRST ITEM IS NOT A SYMBOL OR LAMBDA ('NIL')
00:42:05 -!- CXI has quit (Connection timed out).
00:42:09 <GreyKnight> Gimme some break, I did well just producing something like this in PHP :-P
00:42:20 -!- lament has set channel mode: -o lament.
00:42:29 <ihope> http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000664NI.01._SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg <- the infamous ban stick!
00:42:30 <Razor-X> Pfft. Make a Scheme IRC client, bub.
00:42:58 <Razor-X> do eval (print "I eat babies")
00:43:05 <Razor-X> #do eval (print "I eat babies")
00:43:09 <Razor-X> #do eval (print "I eat babies")
00:43:10 <Razor-X> #do eval (print "I eat babies")
00:43:18 <ihope> #do eval ((lambda (x) (list x x)) (lambda (x) (list x x)))
00:43:20 <GreyKnight> #do eval ((lambda (x) (list x x)) (lambda (x) (list x x)))
00:43:21 <GreyKnight> #> '(#<CLOSURE :LAMBDA (X) (LIST X X)> #<CLOSURE :LAMBDA (X) (LIST X X)>)
00:43:50 <GreyKnight> It could do recursive calls to a function, but not any of the special looping forms
00:44:14 <ihope> #do eval ((lambda (x) (list x (list (quote quote) x))) (quote (lambda (x) (list x (list (quote quote) x)))))
00:44:15 <GreyKnight> #do eval ((lambda (x) (list x (list (quote quote) x))) (quote (lambda (x) (list x (list (quote quote) x)))))
00:44:17 <GreyKnight> #> '((LAMBDA (X) (LIST X (LIST (QUOTE QUOTE) X))) (QUOTE (LAMBDA (X) (LIST X (LIST (QUOTE QUOTE) X)))))
00:44:19 <GreyKnight> There's a defun, but its results aren't persistent
00:45:04 <GreyKnight> in the sense that centipedes are something like cats
00:45:25 <Razor-X> Do lambda expressions implicitly execute statements in order?
00:45:48 <ihope> Razor-X: lambda expressions in actual lambda calculus?
00:45:59 <Razor-X> ihope: No, in GreyKnight's odd Lisp dialect.
00:46:00 <lament> Razor-X: lambda expressions don't have any statements!
00:46:08 <GreyKnight> It's 00:43 over here, excuse me if I'm slow
00:46:36 <Razor-X> Ya know, like the Scheme (begin) special form.
00:46:40 * ihope tries this infinite monkey thing
00:46:54 <ihope> To be or nowiex oqh pziqjw bwqo xpl woxqw sbhqo pjw
00:47:01 <ihope> Oh, cool, I got... well.
00:47:19 <Razor-X> I can't remember much of the particulars of CL.
00:47:32 <Razor-X> But, what I can remember is CL felt much worse to program in than Scheme does :).
00:48:09 <GreyKnight> Do you mean that the "body" expressions of the lambda are guaranteed to be executed in the order written?
00:49:24 <Razor-X> If you simply made your IRC client *in* your Lisp dialect, you could get it to excecute its own code with ease ;).
00:49:52 <GreyKnight> That'd be some kind of insane programming exercise
00:50:28 <Razor-X> One of the additions I'm adding to my IRC bot in the Scheme rewrite is the fact that I'm going to give a REPL to privileged users.
00:50:46 <Razor-X> Plus I'll program in an RC file so I can change portions of the code on the fly.
00:50:59 <GreyKnight> well, the Lisp code itself is being run as a PHP script, so I mean it'd be an insane number of levels of abstraction
00:51:17 <Razor-X> Drop the stupid PHP business :P.
00:52:00 <GreyKnight> the whole idea was to see if I could write a Lisp in PHP
00:52:03 <GregorR-W> PHP - unchallengable in its niche, worthless elsewhere :-P
00:52:27 <GreyKnight> yeah - implementing random Lisp dialects
00:52:29 <GregorR-W> If you say "Ruby on Rails" I'll shoot you.
00:53:06 <GregorR-W> No amount of nifty 3rd party libraries will make up for the fact that Ruby just plain sucks.
00:53:28 <Razor-X> Ruby sucks?! *TRIPLE GASP*
00:53:47 <GregorR-W> Ruby = ridiculous OO + all the worst parts of Perl (many of which are totally incompatible with the concept of a completely OO language)
00:53:50 * pikhq wonders if Razor-X has implemented the Violence Over IP protocol correctly. . .
00:54:13 <Razor-X> Nope. Mine's a bit b0rked.
00:54:26 -!- ivan` has joined.
00:54:28 <pikhq> A hint: if it's implemented correctly, you should be dead by now.
00:54:32 <GreyKnight> All Software Sucks, All Hardware Sucks
00:54:37 <lament> Python people have tried to develop an internet framework with the ultimate goal of being able to stab people in the face over the internet.
00:54:49 <lament> they're not quite there yet, but they're making progress
00:54:55 <lament> (Twisted is the framework)
00:55:25 <ihope> All software sucks. Hardware, also, too.
00:55:52 <pikhq> What have you to say about T-languages?
00:56:00 <GreyKnight> All Software Sucks, Hardware Also, Too
00:56:08 <ihope> Razor-X: you beat me to it.
00:56:14 <GregorR-W> Razor-X: Plof is designed to rectify my problems with P-languages ;)
00:56:22 <ihope> For that, I will shoot you 999999 times.
00:56:23 <GregorR-W> P-languages don't suck by nature, it just so happens that they all suck.
00:56:48 <pikhq> Python goes beyond sucking. It engorges the universe in its gaping maw.
00:57:08 <GregorR-W> It goes beyond engorging the universe in its gaping maw. It's goatse.
00:57:09 <Razor-X> Scheme and Haskell should rule the world some day.
00:57:13 <ihope> What if I like Python?
00:57:30 -!- GregorR-W has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.75 [Firefox 1.5.0.2/0000000000]").
00:57:33 <Razor-X> You can jump off a boat in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, ihope ?
00:58:19 <ihope> Isn't that a little harsh? Couldn't you just force me to sign a thing stating that I will never have children, except adopted ones?
00:58:48 <Razor-X> Nah. We all know that 99% of people don't actually care about children and only have them because of social pressure.
00:59:09 <pikhq> Also, we know that 100% of all coders are doomed to celibacy.
00:59:24 * CakeProphet likes Python... mainly because it's the only one he can use effectively.
01:00:14 <CakeProphet> Programming languages are basically like politics and religion.......
01:00:26 <GreyKnight> Together, they are... horribly deformed gk-Lisp!
01:00:46 <fizzie> It's "Lost of Irritating Superfluous Parentheses", isn't it?
01:01:03 <pikhq> fizzie: That would just be Lisp with sexps.
01:01:03 <Razor-X> IIRC, Lisp stands for nothing, which is why it's Lisp and not LISP.
01:01:41 <lament> Lisp stands for lament ihope SimonRC pikhq
01:01:42 <oerjanj> what is the syntax of lithp, anyhow?
01:01:45 <lament> the original authors of the language
01:01:59 <fizzie> [from ‘LISt Processing language’, but mythically from ‘Lots of Irritating Superfluous Parentheses’]"
01:02:06 <fizzie> (Says the Jargon file.)
01:02:35 <ihope> I was the one who originally designed the M-expression.
01:02:48 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-expression
01:03:07 <CakeProphet> If I were to make a useful language... I would use ()'s to denote do-this-and-return-a-value-then-continue-on-with-the-expression)
01:03:33 <ihope> If I were to make a useful language... hmm...
01:04:10 <GreyKnight> if any of use were to make a useful language, we wouldn't be on here :-P
01:04:11 <CakeProphet> On my to do list for useful languages is a language that is perfect for building onto itself... above and beyond Lisp macros.
01:04:29 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Learn Lisp first.
01:04:31 <GreyKnight> Lisps *are* perfect for building onto themselves :-P
01:04:32 * ihope pretends to have written a useful language already
01:05:07 <ihope> Haskell + imperative stuff + optional duck typing = this language.
01:05:11 <GreyKnight> All other languages gradually approach it with each new release
01:05:12 <lament> GreyKnight: your mom is perfection.
01:05:14 * pikhq has written *in* a useful language already.
01:05:19 <Razor-X> Haskell + imperative stuff?!
01:05:27 <CakeProphet> There is a better language out there... we just haven't made it yet.
01:05:35 <ihope> Haskell + more support for monads.
01:05:53 <pikhq> It's like putting Gates and Stallman in a room together: Two enter, one leaves!
01:05:55 <GreyKnight> See, monads were what put me off haskell :-\
01:06:08 <Razor-X> I don't use Monads too often, but they are annoying.
01:06:28 <Razor-X> *Cough* Moving on then....
01:06:50 * oerjanj would be impressed if he believed cakeprophet new what those were
01:07:07 <Razor-X> It would make more sense if he knew *what* a Monad was.
01:07:20 <oerjanj> hm, there is something called triads.
01:07:34 <Razor-X> There is also something called a bifurication.
01:07:57 <ihope> So yeah. Haskell + more monadic stuff + optional duck typing... pretend the monads aren't there, and you got something nice, aye?
01:07:59 <oerjanj> so how do you make an esolang based on triads?
01:08:04 <GreyKnight> "bifurication"? Is that when a furry reproduces?
01:08:11 <CakeProphet> Monads specify an order for shit to happen.
01:08:13 <Razor-X> If it makes you feel happy, yes.
01:08:49 <Razor-X> CakeProphet: Kinda... sorta... not really.
01:08:54 <oerjanj> has anyone made an esolang on a gangster theme?
01:09:05 <ihope> oerjanj: sure, it's called, uh...
01:09:18 <ihope> Isn't there that one that has the stuff and things?
01:10:37 <CakeProphet> monads basically give functional programming a state-change-ish-like ability.
01:11:27 * CakeProphet enjoys putting "def" inside an if in Python.
01:11:42 * Razor-X enjoys using defun syntax in Scheme.
01:12:05 <ihope> GreyKnight: elemental troll Archon, stupid
01:12:07 <CakeProphet> using if combined with def gives you function-changing-like abilities.
01:12:15 <CakeProphet> Except... it's annoying to use... and takes up way too much time.
01:13:36 <Razor-X> Yes well, that sounds fine and dandy, except I can't see anything but very limited use for that :P.
01:14:32 <Razor-X> You can do something similar in Ruby by querying whether the cheese parameter is provided.
01:14:51 <CakeProphet> Lisp could do that much better than Python could.
01:15:22 <GregorR> if(condition, {global thefunc = {/* func a */};}, {global thefunc = {/* func b */};});
01:15:50 <Razor-X> (define wow (pepper corn #!optional cheese) (if (default-object? cheese) (+ pepper corn) (+ (- pepper corn) cheese)))
01:16:46 <GreyKnight> in CL it's &optional instead of #!optional, but otherwise basically similar
01:17:01 <CakeProphet> Python can do arbitrary numbers of arguements too.
01:17:17 <Razor-X> You can condense that example much smaller then :P.
01:18:04 <GreyKnight> I like using # better; think I'll use that syntax when I come to add complicated lambda lists to gkdlisp
01:18:37 <Razor-X> Doesen't it also use &rest ?
01:18:58 <GreyKnight> Yep, and &keyword and probably some others I forgot
01:19:12 <Razor-X> That's another one of those things I didn't like about CL :P.
01:19:19 <Razor-X> You tend to forget most everything about the language.
01:19:32 <GreyKnight> It's consistent within itself, I just don't know why they suddenly decided to start using & as a syntax character
01:19:47 <Razor-X> And I like the fact that Scheme abstracts functions the same way as it abstracts every other definition.
01:19:52 <pikhq> CakeProphet: But of course conditionals are fun. How else do you do Turing completeness?
01:19:56 <GreyKnight> well, I have a copy of the HTML spec nicely linked, so I can look things up at a moment's notice
01:20:36 <ihope> You don't need conditionals for Turing-completeness.
01:20:39 <GreyKnight> gkdlisp fixes it and then trips over its own teeth
01:20:53 <Razor-X> I don't see where Scheme can't be made better in Scheme :P.
01:21:19 <GreyKnight> yeah, the only way a Lisp can be improved is by using its own features or by turning it into another Lisp
01:21:25 <CakeProphet> I love conditionals so much... my super-in-thenear-future-language-I'll-never-create will intend use exessive amounts of conditionals.
01:21:37 <GreyKnight> Lisp as a group is the ultimate; there is no perfection beyond Lisp :-P
01:21:48 <pikhq> ihope: Sure. Try doing Brainfuck without any sort of conditional ability.
01:21:54 <Razor-X> The only one thing I think Scheme can use is Haskell and OCaML's built-in head-tail things.
01:22:14 <Razor-X> Instead of binding head and tail via let, pattern matching is actually pretty nifty.
01:22:18 <ihope> pikhq: the while loop has a condition.
01:22:22 * pikhq has a vague definition of "conditional", which is more along the lines of "being able to branch"
01:22:32 <Razor-X> Of course, I can easily create a macro to *create* pattern matching, so my argument is moot.
01:22:43 <pikhq> ihope: And you just said you can do Turing completeness without conditionals.
01:23:05 <pikhq> Remove []. Is it Turing complete?
01:23:07 <Razor-X> pikhq: BF is Turing Complete. Turing Complete is not BF.
01:23:22 <GreyKnight> Razor-X: what's this pattern-matching head/tail of which you speak?
01:23:33 <ihope> Remove everything, and add S and K combinators.
01:23:38 <pikhq> Razor-X: A Turing complete language can (theoretically) emulate any other Turing complete language.
01:23:39 <ihope> Where's the conditional there?
01:23:46 <CakeProphet> Lisp can do extend onto every aspect of itself... except for moving outside its fundamental syntax.
01:24:05 <pikhq> Clever application of the S and K combinators (I have a *very* vague definition of "conditional").
01:24:18 <Razor-X> GreyKnight: In Haskell, you can write a function parameter as a cons'd list. So the head of the list will automatically be assigned to what you assign at its head, and the tail automatically as what you design the tail to be.
01:24:25 * CakeProphet intends to make a langauge that can change its own fundamental syntax.
01:24:26 <GreyKnight> the much-maligned parentheses are there for a very specific and ingenious reason
01:24:44 <ihope> CakeProphet: just pretend Thubi can.
01:25:27 <Razor-X> Lisp can't change its fundamental syntax? *looks*
01:25:38 <GreyKnight> It's basically impossible for the computer to misparse your Lisp code, because the parse tree is there in the language itself ;-)
01:25:50 <CakeProphet> Unless you change Lisp itself without the use of Lisp to make the change.
01:26:03 <GreyKnight> Reader macros can accomplish quite a lot syntax-wise
01:26:27 <CakeProphet> Do they break away from the fundamental syntax? (a.k.a. parenthesis)
01:26:27 <Razor-X> I was thinking of MIT/GNU Scheme's Reader and Parser.
01:26:46 <Razor-X> You can parse XML using that, among other things.
01:27:18 <GreyKnight> you can read in pretty much any format you like with the various reader control systems
01:27:34 <GreyKnight> why you'd WANT to forgo the standard parentheses is beyond me :-)
01:27:59 <CakeProphet> To create a syntatically different language.
01:28:22 <GreyKnight> but "different from Lisp" implies "inferior" :-)
01:28:39 <CakeProphet> there's something magical about altering your environment to suit your needs in any way possible.
01:28:55 <CakeProphet> Useful... maybe not... but magical indeed.
01:29:04 <GreyKnight> Having said that, a setup that reads in Brainf**k would be hilarious :-D
01:29:08 <Razor-X> You can with the Reader/Parser.... of course, if you have the time.
01:29:29 <Razor-X> Well, my BF interpreter attempted to compile BF to Scheme and then run the Scheme code.
01:30:09 <CakeProphet> Basically... to extend to the language you just need a way to alter the parser via a keyword.
01:30:19 <GreyKnight> Or am I being overly optimistic about the "attempted" part?
01:30:33 <Razor-X> Well, I got bored typing (display) so I gave up :P
01:30:52 <Razor-X> And went on to my original reason for re-learning Lisp via Scheme this time around -- to rewrite my Haskell bot.
01:31:23 <GreyKnight> the IRC bot mentioned earlier, I assume?
01:32:15 <Razor-X> Watch what it can do so far:
01:32:43 -!- Blahbot has joined.
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01:33:01 <GreyKnight> I have a bot in a similar stage of development
01:33:16 <ihope> I have a bot in the "won't compile" stage.
01:33:20 <Razor-X> Given 2 hours, I can probably rewrite the bot as it was originally.
01:33:32 <ihope> It used to be in the "will compile, won't link" stage.
01:33:34 <Razor-X> But... I plan on changing quite a few things around in the core.
01:33:50 <ihope> I'll probably put it back into the "won't parse" stage.
01:34:11 -!- Blarghbot has joined.
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01:34:13 -!- Blarghbot1 has joined.
01:34:13 -!- Blarghbot1 has quit (Client Quit).
01:34:17 <Razor-X> That's the power of Scheme.
01:34:26 <Razor-X> Blargbot and Blarghbot1. Yeah. It's beautiful.
01:34:30 -!- rodgebot has joined.
01:35:02 <Razor-X> Like, does he actually keep the connection alive?
01:35:22 -!- anonfunc has quit.
01:35:42 <Razor-X> He's using netcat. I know it.
01:35:42 <rodgebot> A whole new advance in bot technology.
01:35:59 <rodgebot> Call now and order your rodgebot today!
01:36:00 <Razor-X> You just *love* scripting languages, don't you? :P
01:36:11 <GreyKnight> rodgebot: you can stop advertising now.
01:36:21 <Razor-X> I can do that easily, but, I have to first work on a universal parser for the IRC commands.
01:36:31 <ihope> rodgebot: what's the number?
01:36:58 <Razor-X> rodgebot doesen't respond to my pings :(.
01:37:06 <rodgebot> ihope: I'm not allowed to advertise anymore :'(
01:37:20 <Razor-X> I just keep pinging him, and NOTHING! :(
01:37:28 -!- rodgebot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
01:37:30 <ihope> Razor-X: CTCP PING?
01:38:00 <GreyKnight> Note to self: do not press big red button
01:38:28 <CakeProphet> surrealofy " (sarcasm isend obviously isend = True; isbegin = False;job = index(surrealofication)) (sarcasm isbegin obviously isbegin = True;isend = False;stringstuff = ord(this[index(job:surrealofication))])
01:38:46 <CakeProphet> coding in hypothetical languages is fun... it gives me the illusion that I know what I'm talking about.
01:38:46 * pikhq really needs to work on his calculus homework. . .
01:42:24 <oerjanj> i like the fibonacci base...
01:44:25 <oerjanj> 1 10 100 101 1000 1001 1010 10000 10001 10010 10100 10101 ...
01:44:51 <GreyKnight> hang about, you're not talking about factorial base
01:45:07 <oerjanj> nope i am not although that is nice too
01:45:53 <GreyKnight> essentially there's no limit on the size of the digits in factorial base
01:47:46 <oerjanj> in fibonacci base each position represents a fibonacci number
01:48:08 <GreyKnight> I just misread "fibonacci" as "factorial"
01:48:23 <GreyKnight> It's possible I'm overtired and should sleep.
01:49:35 <oerjanj> found a link: http://www.mcs.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/R.Knott/Fibonacci/fibrep.html
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02:21:25 <Razor-X> I should release this 20 page pamphlet of AP Chemistry formulas I have here.
02:21:35 <Razor-X> Rather than leaving it on my hard drive to rot uselessly.
02:28:27 <Razor-X> I'm thinking of a title for my essay.
02:28:48 <Razor-X> I think I'll name it ``A hollistic comparison of three books exploring the nature of human thought''.
02:28:57 <Razor-X> That seems original and it rolls off the tongue.
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02:30:04 <Razor-X> Maybe I'll add a PS at the end of it telling my teacher I'm not an arrogant snobbish girl but in fact, I couldn't think of a good title.
02:30:39 <GreyKnight> or take the opposite tack and have a footnote from the title saying "Yes, I really am that snobbish"
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02:31:07 <Razor-X> I would've done that to my last year's English teacher and she would've understood, but I haven't even seen this teacher yet.
02:31:11 <Razor-X> So I'm a bit afraid of doing that.
02:33:41 <ihope> Yep, that's what I was going to do next.
02:33:59 <ihope> That sounds quite different.
02:34:47 <ihope> Brown noise, not the brown note.
02:35:10 <ihope> That sounds... that also sounds quite different.
02:35:36 <ihope> And blue noise also sounds different.
02:35:41 * ihope compares it to white noise
02:36:23 <jix> base phi is fun
02:36:36 <jix> it is simmilar to base fibonacci
02:36:37 <ihope> Blue noise seems to be cleaner.
02:36:52 <ihope> jix: radix, you mean?
02:37:02 <GreyKnight> actually, neither of those are "real" bases
02:37:27 <GreyKnight> unary only represents positive integers, and base zero is... nothing
02:37:39 <jix> ihope: uh i guess
02:37:49 <ihope> Purple noise sounds even cleaner...
02:38:14 <ihope> Gray noise is something a person could fall asleep to... maybe.
02:38:29 <GreyKnight> ihope: these are getting pretty obscure
02:38:39 <Razor-X> I have no idea what these noise are.
02:38:54 <Razor-X> I only know that someone who assosciates color with sound ended up naming odd sounds according to color.
02:39:12 <GreyKnight> 'salright, ihope is just reading them off a selection menu ;-)
02:39:16 <Razor-X> And when people want to sound scientific about audio equipment, they use one of those noises like buzzwords.
02:40:09 <lament> unary represents your mom.
02:40:09 <Razor-X> I say we should've named the noises according to food.
02:40:09 <Razor-X> Papaya Noise sounds awful.
02:40:23 -!- ivan` has quit (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The future of IRC").
02:40:26 <ihope> We should have named them the same way we name nozzles.
02:40:38 <Razor-X> I could go to sleep to some Flan Noise.
02:40:39 -!- ivan` has joined.
02:41:00 <Razor-X> Habanero Noise will wake you up pretty quickly.
02:41:22 <ihope> That's what grey noise should be called... flan noise.
02:41:43 <ihope> Well, time for me to abruptly disappear again.
02:41:46 <lament> and GreyKnight could be called FlanKnight?
02:41:56 <Razor-X> No, we need to name some noise that deals with YourMom lament noise.
02:42:08 * ihope has left irc.freenode.net ("Fooled you!")
02:42:25 <Razor-X> The sound of Waikiki Beach? (lame joke)
02:43:17 <jix> gray noise is cool
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02:46:56 <lament> we can't fucking swear in #nethack?
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02:47:34 <GreyKnight> Don't make me look down my nose at you
02:47:50 <lament> that would be... pretty disgusting.
02:48:19 <GreyKnight> I have 4 ranks in Furious Glaring and I'm not afraid to use them
02:48:56 <lament> GreyKnight: i didn't know you were female
02:49:20 <lament> GreyKnight: asl? wana cybr?
02:49:37 <lament> that's not a glare, that's scissors, you dumb shit
02:51:29 <Razor-X> ===========================>>>>>> (X_X) <<<<<========================================
02:51:36 <Razor-X> Glaring at you while you get PWNED.
02:51:46 <GreyKnight> I like the special effects on the second
02:51:49 <Razor-X> That's RIGHT. Ph33r my ub3r-ASCII art.
02:51:54 <lament> GreyKnight: see, a real female glare
02:52:03 <lament> GreyKnight: not like your pathetic mockery
02:52:32 <GreyKnight> When I want your opinion, I'll rip your head off, scoop out what brains I can find, and crap your opinion back into your skull.
02:53:01 <lament> joke's on you, i don't have any brains!
02:54:45 <lament> GreyKnight: New moon tonight! You feel bitchy.
02:55:46 <GreyKnight> New moon tonight! You talk gently to the succubus... The succubs hits! The succubus scratches! What a bitch!
03:01:49 <GreyKnight> Think I've got the definition for this lego language sorted... next, an interpreter.
03:04:06 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
03:04:08 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
03:04:45 <lament> what is this lambda thing?
03:04:51 * lament suspects he might have written it
03:06:19 <Razor-X> Obviously Gregor coded that well.
03:06:46 -!- ivan` has quit (Connection timed out).
03:07:26 <Razor-X> There's no hq9+ interpreter!
03:07:31 <lament> I remember it working :|
03:07:35 <lament> !lambda 8a9oeu98ao8a9g83998glp3
03:07:38 <EgoBot> Tokenizer error: Tokenizer can't comprehend '8'
03:07:48 <lament> okay. that's a different lambda.
03:08:21 <lament> !lambda print "hello world"
03:08:26 <EgoBot> Parser error: Unbound variable: print
03:08:26 <EgoBot> While parsing "./tmp/egobot.l2Rlk5": Invalid character!
03:08:51 <lament> what the hell is this "lambda" and how does it work.
03:09:23 <lament> !lambda (\x."hello")"world"
03:09:24 <EgoBot> Parser error: Unbound variable: j
03:09:39 <lament> !lambda (\x.x "hello")"world"
03:09:56 <EgoBot> Parser error: list index out of range
03:10:23 -!- ivan` has joined.
03:11:16 <EgoBot> [and c0 c1 c10 c2 c256 c3 c4 c5 c6 c7 c8 c9 exp fact false fr i i0 i1 if iszero k mult not or plus pred s show succ true y]
03:11:36 <EgoBot> \n.(n \x,x,y.y \x,y.x)
03:12:13 <Razor-X> Can't remember what you even wrote.
03:12:24 <GreyKnight> Finally figured out how to use your own crappy software
03:12:31 <lament> i remember fixing that \x,x,y issue but only offline
03:12:43 <lament> anyway it doesn't affect the functionality
03:13:09 <lament> !lambda #show iszero c0
03:13:12 <EgoBot> \n.(n \x,x,y.y \x,y.x)
03:13:48 <lament> !lambda #show iszero c1
03:13:50 <EgoBot> \n.(n \x,x,y.y \x,y.x)
03:14:13 <lament> !lambda #show (iszero c1)
03:14:52 <lament> comma between arguments, period between arguments and the body
03:15:13 <lament> !lambda greyknight = "idiot" ;
03:18:36 <EgoBot> Parser error: Unbound variable: x
03:19:03 * pikhq has his Calc work done. :)
03:20:06 <EgoBot> \f.(\x.(f x x) \x.(f x x))
03:20:21 <lament> parser error because my parser is dumb?
03:20:30 <lament> !lambda (\x.x x) (\x.x x)
03:20:32 <EgoBot> Parser error: Unbound variable: x
03:20:42 <lament> it works on my local copy
03:21:03 <EgoBot> /bin/bash: line 1: 11535 Segmentation fault ./lambda/lambda.py <./tmp/egobot.7E27T9
03:21:15 <pikhq> Now *that* takes skill.
03:21:37 * pikhq thinks that EgoBot was *not* meant to handle recursion. ;)
03:21:49 <lament> yeah, it segfaults locally on the program you originally gave
03:22:22 <lament> (Python segfaults due to running out of stack - one of unpleasant little things about Python)
03:22:44 <GreyKnight> That's a pretty assy way to handle running out of stack
03:23:14 <lament> your FACE is pretty assy.
03:23:23 <pikhq> (also an unpleasent thing about Tcl (although Tcl handles it better *AND* there's a package in Tcllib to do tail call optimisation, so you shouldn't run into it if you're sane))
03:24:48 <pikhq> (I intend to learn Lisp)
03:25:33 <pikhq> "Reverse Polish Lisp FTW." out
03:41:42 <RodgerTheGreat> hey, uh- question: could anyone recommend a TCL interpreter for OSX, preferably one with downloadable binaries?
03:42:13 <pikhq> Second, there's only one Tcl interpreter, and that is Tcl.
03:43:47 <Razor-X> Can you reccomend a Tcl compiler?
03:44:12 <Razor-X> I don't think I'll be venturing out of Scheme for a while, but y'know, just for the awesomeness.
03:44:15 <pikhq> No Tcl compilers (except maybe the bytecode compiler that's part of the interpreter).
03:46:50 <pikhq> http://tcltkaqua.sourceforge.net/
03:47:33 <GreyKnight> You're supposed to say "...echo in here?" ;-)
03:48:27 <Razor-X> pikhq: There's no compiler ;-;.
03:48:41 <pikhq> http://jim.berlios.de/ I lied. There are two implementations.
03:49:19 <Razor-X> You dash my hopes and dreams and then tell me you're a LIAR?!
03:49:26 <pikhq> Although Jim is only a subset of it. . .
03:49:28 <Razor-X> Oh cruel cruel world of ours!
03:49:57 <Razor-X> I feel your anger, it gives you focus, it makes you stronger!
03:51:20 <Razor-X> You're changing the subject, BUB!
03:51:55 <CakeProphet> Create the most efficient Ackermann function you can... the person that can return the most results wins.
03:52:13 <CakeProphet> Unfortunately... you'll have to wait till tomorrow to claim victory... because I'm leaving in a few minutes.
03:52:24 <Razor-X> Here's another line from that movie:
03:52:24 <CakeProphet> By the way..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ackermann_function
03:52:46 <pikhq> Make it pre-store the results. :p
03:52:47 <Razor-X> She was alive, I felt it!!!!!
03:53:08 <Razor-X> I think the last line is the most descriptive one.
03:53:24 <GreyKnight> Ackermann function, been there, done that, got the horrible picture
03:54:23 <Razor-X> I thought Chani dies in the second (and last one I read) book?
03:54:55 <Razor-X> That's the only line I really remember from that book.
03:55:04 <Razor-X> And Bene Tleilaxu, because of the horrible sense of spelling.
03:55:08 <Razor-X> I couldn't stand Dune, I'm sorry.
03:55:12 <GreyKnight> Leto II is by far the most badass character in the entire series
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03:55:30 <GreyKnight> If you haven't read God Emperor of Dune, you've missed out on his brilliance
03:55:44 <Razor-X> The first book was mediocre. The second book was awful.
03:55:56 <RodgerTheGreat> I thought the baron Harkonnen was a pretty amazing bad guy, and Peiter DeVries is pretty awesome as well.
03:56:19 <GreyKnight> Leto II knocks the stuffing out of all of 'em, of course
03:56:26 <RodgerTheGreat> I thought the first was the best, but "God Emperor" is a close second. I haven't read anything after that.
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03:57:15 <GreyKnight> RodgerTheGreat: save yourself time and money; don't
03:57:25 <GreyKnight> I bought it and pretty soon wished I hadn't.
03:57:33 * CakeProphet demands an Ackermann function from all of you!
03:58:18 <GreyKnight> RodgerTheGreat: They are molesting Herbert Senior's corpse
03:59:48 <RodgerTheGreat> but the butlerian Jihad itself is such a *great* story topic! How could they go wrong?
04:00:06 <GreyKnight> By trying to cram everything into a very small space
04:00:51 <GreyKnight> Basically the premise of the legend books is that every single technological and social detail of the Empire was established at the time of the Jihad, 10 millenia ago
04:01:45 <GreyKnight> I found the machines to be pretty unappealing, too.
04:02:50 <GreyKnight> No depth to them at all... Star Trek's Lt. Cmdr. Data is a more three-dimensional character, and he sucks starfish.
04:02:55 <RodgerTheGreat> well, fuck. now I don't have anything lined up to read the next time I have a chance.
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04:03:36 <RodgerTheGreat> did they go the usual retarded "I am an emotionless machine- humans are inefficient and must be destroyed!" route?
04:04:20 <GreyKnight> *that* was a good series... the plot is so complex even I get taken by surprise
04:04:46 <GreyKnight> The characters actually act like they have personalities :-o
04:05:46 <RodgerTheGreat> but, MAN, that tack is overdone. I've always thought that one of the best approaches to AI programming would involve simulating emotions. Logic in humans is superimposed over emotion, and our emotional responses represent a large number of the elusive things humans are good at.
04:07:10 <GreyKnight> They do have one Data recolour who's trying to understand emotions, but he gets all whiny because emotion does not compute
04:07:35 <GreyKnight> Of course, being an evil robot, he kills things, so not a complete copy-and-paste of Data
04:09:25 <GreyKnight> well, there's the token robot who works with the "trustee" human slaves and goes all noble and what-have-you
04:09:40 <RodgerTheGreat> wait, I can answer that myself: people want heroes thay can directly identify with.
04:09:41 <GreyKnight> but this probably evokes no feeling of surprise in you
04:10:25 <RodgerTheGreat> Robots are always either paladins or maniacal killing machines with a pretense of logic.
04:11:42 <GreyKnight> Amber manages to continually surprise you as well as somehow managing to weave all the complex threads together into a coherent world
04:12:26 <RodgerTheGreat> what kinda vein is Amber in? Cyperpunk, semi-fantasy, hard sci fi... ?
04:12:40 <GreyKnight> I say "world", because there's little sense of an actual *story* as such; things are coming and going without so much as a by-your-leave, like real life
04:13:28 <GreyKnight> Technically it incorporates every story ever written, and many that haven't been, but obviously the author can only cover so much of the multiverse ;-)
04:14:26 <RodgerTheGreat> I wish it was possible to do a proper movie adaptation of Snow Crash. That would be *amazing* if they could be true to the book.
04:20:19 <RodgerTheGreat> but back on my previous point, I'd like to see more fiction where machines are portrayed more like Asimov did, where they were generally the victims of manipulation at the hands of humans.
04:22:25 <RodgerTheGreat> Characters like flatline from neuromancer are pretty good as well.
04:48:01 <GreyKnight> I managed to come up with a lego-based language that uses black, red, yellow, green, blue, white, and transparent bricks
04:48:14 <GreyKnight> plus I'd like minifigures for the wandering processors :-)
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08:26:00 <Razor-X> The Ackermann function is *trivial* to define in any Lisp.
08:26:25 <Razor-X> It's actually pretty useful for certain situations. (Which I didn't know.)
08:27:06 <GreyKnight> funny you should mention it, someone in another channel just tried to break my #eval script by running (ackermann 4 4) in it ;-)
08:28:05 <Razor-X> Is it useful at all in Mathematics outside of being quaint to prove something?
08:28:06 <GreyKnight> We were using (defun ackermann (a b) (if (= a 0) (1+ b) (if (< a 0) 0 (if (= b 0) (ackermann (1- a) 1) (ackermann (1- a) (ackermann a (1- b)))))))
08:28:31 <Razor-X> (cond) is a *lot* cleaner.
08:28:48 <Razor-X> Oh wait, you haven't written (cond) have you? :P.
08:29:13 <GreyKnight> I thought not, butI just checked and it seems I do :-o
08:30:14 <GreyKnight> Wikipedia says A is used in time-complexity analysis and for some benchmarking
08:30:31 <Razor-X> You should make (if) expand to a (cond).
08:30:44 <Razor-X> Oh wait, I don't think you can, because they're both special forms.
08:30:45 <GreyKnight> It's a good way to test how well your compiler handles massive recursion ;-)
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08:31:38 <GreyKnight> actually, with this half-assery approach I could probably pull it off...
08:31:55 <GreyKnight> it essentially has only "functions" and "macros"
08:32:59 <GreyKnight> and isn't anywhere near generic enough to allow users to define the latter :-\
08:36:17 <Razor-X> One more error with your function.
08:36:36 <Razor-X> (if (> a 0) not (if (< a 0)
08:37:18 <GreyKnight> notice that little 0 sneaking in unobserved!
08:37:23 <Razor-X> Read the Wikipedia definition.
08:37:44 <Razor-X> The integers are all non-negative.
08:38:11 <GreyKnight> I just threw that in in case some wise guy decided to pass a negative argument in
08:38:36 <Razor-X> I would else it to 0 then.
08:40:48 <Razor-X> (ackermann 6 90) is calculating :P.
08:41:44 <Razor-X> (ackermann 6 20) gave me a result, at least, heh.
08:43:05 <GreyKnight> gkdlisp doesn't store any precalculated values, so I'll not be going anything like that deep :-o
08:43:48 <Razor-X> I still can't see why CL *insists* on having defun and define.
08:46:22 <GreyKnight> Nothing listed in the spec for just define, but there are several define- things
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08:58:21 <Razor-X> Well, Scheme is consistent in that (define) maps a result to a symbol (creating state).
09:00:00 <GreyKnight> ah, so you use (define) to attach *anything* to a symbol?
09:00:45 <Arrogant> Makes higher-order functions a lot prettier, for one ;)
09:02:00 <GreyKnight> I'm sure you could cook up something such in CL, as per our discussion on Lisp readers earlier ;-)
09:02:11 <GreyKnight> but CL is intended to be *Common*, not perfect
09:02:47 <GreyKnight> which leads to a few oddities here and there
09:04:25 <Razor-X> The problem I had with CL in the very beginning was that I couldn't get used to the irregularities and the insane amount of things to memorize.
09:04:41 <Razor-X> Scheme feels a lot more fun to me, since I can abstract it all much more cleanly.
09:05:13 <Razor-X> I guess that's how you can tell Scheme is a-callin' :P.
09:05:33 <Razor-X> Uggh. I hate writing parsers though, and reading fun ABNFs.
09:06:05 <Arrogant> CL seemed like a big mess to me, with a million things to remember. And the multiple namespaces didn't sit right with me.
09:06:22 <Razor-X> Heh. Yeah, I got the same feeling.
09:07:03 <Razor-X> MIT/GNU Scheme's standard is pretty good. It comes with raw X usage, TCP streams, and all.
09:08:05 <GreyKnight> By all accounts, though, the world before CL was one of many different, barely intersecting types of Lisp
09:08:27 <GreyKnight> At least now everyone has something to touch base with, even if only to say why they're better :-P
09:09:01 <Razor-X> I love it when a book calls itself a handbook but has 1000+ pages.
09:11:16 <Razor-X> In Haskell, I got to steal the IRC parser code from elsewher.
09:11:26 <Razor-X> Now I got to write it myself :(. I hate parsers.
09:12:26 <GreyKnight> I'm sure I saw some Scheme IRC code somewhere...
09:13:20 <Razor-X> I know it exists, if *Haskell* had IRC code, Scheme must have it.
09:14:18 <Razor-X> Haskell's only IRC thing out there was for HaskellBot, which was filled with an insane amount of monads, and the Hircules client's ``library'' which was also lumped with a whole bunch of useless GUI functions.
09:14:39 <Razor-X> I think I made what can be considered to be the first ``IRC library'' in Haskell, no matter how rudimentary it is.
09:16:21 <GreyKnight> http://sisc.cvs.sourceforge.net/sisc/contrib/irc/scheme/
09:18:12 <Razor-X> But, I wanna try my hand at the parser myself.
09:18:36 <Razor-X> Of course, if I need to, I'll just steal SISC's code :D.
10:48:08 <pgimeno> [ot] would someone help me make up some words for which "WORD" is an acronym, which imply some rant towards M$ or Word itself? All I could come with is "We Ought to Rant Doubly".
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12:16:17 <ihope> Wilted Or Rancid Butterflies?
12:16:53 <ihope> Or maybe something like We Overwrite Random Data.
12:24:01 <ihope> Or Word Overwrites Random Data.
12:27:49 <pgimeno> (vijara is just another recursive acronym)
12:30:10 <ihope> An AAIARAT is a recursive acronym, then
12:39:18 <pgimeno> how would a pangram look like in Japanese?
12:46:56 <pgimeno> oh, there's one in kana: ??????? / ????? / ?????? / ????? / ??????? / ????? / ??????? / ?????
12:52:15 <ihope> What character encoding would that be?
12:52:41 <pgimeno> er, did I forget to switch to utf-8?
12:52:57 <pgimeno> <pgimeno> oh, there's one in kana: いろはにほへと / ちりぬるを / わかよたれそ / つねならむ / うゐのおくやま / けふこえて / あさきゆめみし / ゑひもせす
12:54:27 <lindi-> very unreadable indeed :/
12:56:16 <lindi-> pgimeno: IROHANIHOHETOTIRINURUWOWAKAYOTARESOTUNENARAMUUWINOOKUYAMAKEHUKOETEASAKIYUMEMISIWEHIMOSESU?
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15:14:37 <nickie12> Please give me the source of 99 Bottles of Beer in IRP,if yuo do it, it would be lovely
15:17:58 -!- Keina has joined.
15:18:09 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
15:18:11 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
15:19:42 <nickie12> Can anyone say "hello world" to the channel? That would be lovely
15:20:32 <nickie12> Please write it without capitals, OK?
15:21:51 <nickie12> Now, can anyone say the source code of 99 Bottles of Beer to the channel?
15:23:15 <nickie12> 't do a DDoS attack by saying *rofl*
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15:27:22 <nickie12> Please give me the answer to this question: Is jix/are you german?
15:28:04 <Keina> dachte hier weren nur englender
15:28:06 <jix> wer ist denn noch alles deutsch?
15:28:26 <jix> hmm hier waren nochmal 2 andere deutsche... aber die sind glaub ich nicht da
15:29:30 <jix> http://www.frappr.com/esolang << here is a map of esolang programmers
15:30:14 <nickie12> Kanns sein, dass "Anders" deutsch ist?(English: Am I right with the belief Anders is german?(Anders is the german word for different))
15:32:08 <nickie12> If anyone needs it I can post the source code of the "99 Bottles of Beer" song to the channel.
15:35:10 <jix> nickie12: according to geobytes.com Anders is from sweden
15:35:18 <jix> but according to geobytes.com i'm from italy ^^
15:35:31 <jix> and it would be new to me that bremen is an italian city ^^
15:36:10 <jix> duh... that was the point...
15:38:53 <nickie12> oh... I didn't understand your sentence... *bang my head on the wall
15:39:28 <jix> "leichte schläge auf den hinterkopf erhöhen das denkvermögen" ^^
15:40:28 <nickie12> Please note that I'm grinning now *laugh*
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15:54:09 <jix> hey GregorR-W
15:54:38 <Keina> wer is alles deutsh?
15:54:47 <jix> Keina: das hatten wir schon...
15:55:01 <Keina> kan jemand gekomen sein
15:55:15 <jix> Keina: the only germans here are AFAIK you, nickie12 and i
15:55:38 <Keina> iner leiste rechts
15:55:47 <Keina> einer der "anders" heist
15:55:52 <Keina> is das nit deutsh?
15:56:03 <jix> Keina: no he's from sweden AFAIK
15:57:09 <nickie12> Please produce an output with an IRC command
15:57:52 <GreyKnight> #help <command> : Tells you what a command does.
15:58:09 <ihope> That could cause conflicts.
15:58:22 <jix> #do eval (+ 1 2)
15:58:37 <jix> #do eval (+ 2 3)
15:58:43 <jix> #do eval (exit)
15:58:48 <GreyKnight> #! Error: (998) 'EXIT' IS NOT A FUNCTION OR A MACRO
15:58:50 <jix> #do eval (quit)
15:58:54 <GreyKnight> #! Error: (998) 'QUIT' IS NOT A FUNCTION OR A MACRO
15:59:15 <ihope> #eval (eval '(eval '(eval)))
15:59:20 <GreyKnight> #! Error: (483) FUNCTION 'eval' TAKES ONE ARG
15:59:22 * GreyKnight congratulates everyone on their counting skills
15:59:59 <Keina> i like this channel
16:00:12 <nickie12> Please recognize that I go and play badminton
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16:00:33 <GreyKnight> #! Error: (327) FUNCTION + TAKES AT LEAST TWO ARGS
16:01:22 <GreyKnight> apparently there's a slang word "cu" in some language, which is rather rude
16:01:34 <GreyKnight> I forget which, but it came up in a mailing list one time :-)
16:01:44 <GreyKnight> #! Error: (998) 'NOT' IS NOT A FUNCTION OR A MACRO
16:01:44 -!- Keina has left (?).
16:01:52 <GreyKnight> #! Error: (998) 'NOT' IS NOT A FUNCTION OR A MACRO
16:02:07 <ihope> What unary functions are there?
16:03:19 <ihope> #eval (((lambda (x) (lambda (y) (x y))) cdr) '(3 4 5))
16:03:19 <GreyKnight> #do eval (((lambda (x) (lambda (y) (x y))) cdr) '(3 4 5))
16:03:23 <GreyKnight> #! Error: (974) FIRST ITEM IS NOT A SYMBOL OR LAMBDA (''((LAMBDA (X) (LAMBDA (Y) (X Y))) CDR)')
16:03:41 <ihope> #eval (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (x y)))
16:03:42 <GreyKnight> #do eval (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (x y)))
16:03:44 <GreyKnight> #> #<CLOSURE :LAMBDA (X) (LAMBDA (Y) (X Y))>
16:04:02 <ihope> #eval ((lambda (x) (lambda (y) (x y))) cdr)
16:04:03 <GreyKnight> #do eval ((lambda (x) (lambda (y) (x y))) cdr)
16:04:41 <ihope> Methinks that should be #<CLOSURE :LAMBDA (Y) (CDR Y)>, no?
16:05:19 <ihope> #do eval ((lambda (y) (cdr y)) '(3 4 5))
16:05:20 <GreyKnight> #do eval ((lambda (y) (cdr y)) '(3 4 5))
16:05:47 <ihope> #eval (((lambda (x) (lambda (y) (x y))) cdr) '(3 4 5))
16:05:48 <GreyKnight> #do eval (((lambda (x) (lambda (y) (x y))) cdr) '(3 4 5))
16:05:51 <GreyKnight> #! Error: (974) FIRST ITEM IS NOT A SYMBOL OR LAMBDA (''((LAMBDA (X) (LAMBDA (Y) (X Y))) CDR)')
16:06:01 <ihope> #eval (((lambda (cdr) (lambda (y) (cdr y))) x) '(3 4 5))
16:06:03 <GreyKnight> #do eval (((lambda (cdr) (lambda (y) (cdr y))) x) '(3 4 5))
16:06:07 <GreyKnight> #! Error: (974) FIRST ITEM IS NOT A SYMBOL OR LAMBDA (''((LAMBDA (CDR) (LAMBDA (Y) (CDR Y))) X)')
16:06:13 <ihope> #eval (((lambda (cdr) (lambda (y) (cdr y))) cdr) '(3 4 5))
16:06:14 <GreyKnight> #do eval (((lambda (cdr) (lambda (y) (cdr y))) cdr) '(3 4 5))
16:06:17 <GreyKnight> #! Error: (974) FIRST ITEM IS NOT A SYMBOL OR LAMBDA (''((LAMBDA (CDR) (LAMBDA (Y) (CDR Y))) CDR)')
16:06:29 <ihope> Okay, this means that Lisp is stupid and everybody should stop using it.
16:06:33 <GreyKnight> One thing about this... it's rather spammy.
16:07:09 -!- pgimeno has joined.
16:17:24 <GregorR-W> Lesse .. #eval (system "rm -rf /")
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16:23:45 <lindi-> GreyKnight: does that answer query too? ;)
16:24:50 <GreyKnight> It should do, although no-one's tested that part yet
16:25:00 <lindi-> GreyKnight: can i try?
16:33:25 <GregorR-W> Every time I'm looking for something GNU/Linux-related and obsolete, I search and search and search and then find it on planetmirror.
16:33:33 <GregorR-W> You'd think I'd learn to look at planetmirror first.
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16:40:42 <GregorR-W> I've heard of interpreters crashing, but that *HAHAHAHA I AM ENDLESSLY AMUSING*
16:47:30 <ihope> #eval (system "ls /")
16:47:35 <GreyKnight> #! Error: (998) 'SYSTEM' IS NOT A FUNCTION OR A MACRO
16:49:59 <GregorR-W> So, I'm thinking of adding explicit security levels to Plof. Internal/library functions would have a definition of their security level (perhaps 1-5) depending on trust. So system, for example, would have a trust of 5, but if and println would have a trust of 1. That way, you could (somewhat) safely run a remotely accessable interpreter, so long as you make sure to run it at low trust.
16:50:42 <lindi-> GreyKnight: why not just write an interpreter in lisp
16:51:03 <GreyKnight> lindi-: I wanted to see if I could do one from scratch
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18:37:04 <nickie12> Please understand that I say hello
18:39:04 <nickie12> Please ask me how to understand something :P
18:39:47 <ihope> How do I understand something?
18:41:30 <nickie12> You only have to think about it or read about it
18:41:57 * ihope tries to think about that nickie12 says hello
18:42:10 * ihope fails, then tries to read about that nickie12 says hello
18:43:58 <nickie12> Ok, please go to a course for dumb guys. I recommend you the course: Understanding the word hello
18:44:42 <ihope> How do I go to a course for dumb guys?
18:45:42 <ihope> So isn't guessing the thing computers are worst at?
18:46:01 <nickie12> Thanks for the translation to dummy language :)
18:48:23 <pikhq> ihope: With Windows, it's the only thing that a computer can do.
18:48:43 <ihope> I thought crashing was the only thing they could do. :-P
18:49:39 <nickie12> And I thought reporting the personal information to Microsuck and, after that, crashing is the only think they could and should do :P
18:49:58 <nickie12> OK, I use it too, but only for gaming and IRC.
18:51:14 <lament> does mIRC still suck as much as it used to?
18:51:26 <ihope> So... I didn't say that computers couldn't guess, did I?
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18:51:56 <nickie12> 1) - I don't use Linux altough I like it, I use my Mac
18:52:29 <nickie12> 2) - give me another scriptable graphical IRC client with an easy scripting language please :P
18:52:48 <lament> why do you want your irc client scriptable, anyway?
18:52:50 <GreyKnight> Nobody's implemented Brainf**kIRC yet? :-o
18:53:16 <GreyKnight> Chatzilla is scriptable and runs anywhere there's FF
18:54:54 <ihope> ChatZilla is scriptable?
18:55:09 <lament> what's the point of scriptable irc clients?
18:55:47 * GreyKnight pushes lament into a pit. lament lands on a set of iron spikes. The spikes were poisoned. The poison was deadly...
18:56:30 <nickie12> Chatzilla itself is coded in JavaScript?!
18:56:35 <GregorR-W> Firefox is to JavaScript as Emacs is to Lisp :P
18:56:54 <lament> GreyKnight: taht's not fun. That just makes you look like an idiot every time you paste it. And it dosen't need a script.
18:57:54 <nickie12> But I think I don't switch to Chatzilla because I hate JavaScript >.<
18:57:55 <GregorR-W> GreyKnight: That mode was unset long, long ago.
18:59:03 <ihope> === u is unknown mode char to me
19:00:13 <nickie12> Maybe you can do some cool things like interpreters for esoteric languages in JavaScript, but I don't like it ^^
19:00:54 <lament> javascript is quite nice conceptually
19:01:19 <GregorR-W> It does have some dark, freaky corners, particularly in terms of OO ability.
19:01:32 <nickie12> I prefer developing in server-side scripting languages, more precisely in PHP
19:02:14 <nickie12> I'm not born to code in JavaScript...
19:03:05 <GregorR-W> lament's opinion of PHP is fairly typical for this channel. I don't share it.
19:03:26 <GregorR-W> Actually, to get lament's opinion on any language, use this algorithm:
19:03:43 <GregorR-W> if (language == "Python") { lament.likes[language] = true; } else { lament.likes[language] = false; }
19:03:56 <ihope> lamentLikes "Python" = True
19:04:00 <ihope> lamentLikes _ = False
19:04:29 <lament> GregorR-W: that's clearly not true.
19:04:45 <GreyKnight> lament.likes[language] = (language=="Python");
19:05:28 <ihope> lamentLikes x = x == "Python"
19:05:43 <ihope> All languages look exactly the same with this stuff.
19:05:59 <ihope> def lamentLikes(x):
19:06:11 <ihope> return x == "Python"
19:06:14 <ihope> Or something like that.
19:06:21 <GregorR-W> OK, in case you guys were wondering, the joke is long-dead.
19:06:45 <lament> likes(lament,python) = True
19:07:48 <ihope> likes(lament,python)
19:08:15 <fizzie> "likes(lament,python)." would be the Prolog way.
19:08:26 <nickie12> <?php (\n) require("mysql.php"); (\n) class likes { (\n) function doeshelikeit($who, $language) { (\n) $query = mysql_query("SELECT * FROM likes WHERE who = $who' } (\n) } $ll = new likes; (\n) echo $ll->doeshelikeit("lament", "phyton")."<br>".$ll->doeshelikeit("lament", "php"); ?>
19:08:27 <ihope> Yeah, that's what I meant.
19:08:50 <lament> clearly that's the best entry so far.
19:10:19 <nickie12> <?php (\n) require("mysql.php"); (\n) class likes { (\n) function doeshelikeit($who, $language) { (\n) $query = mysql_query("SELECT * FROM likes WHERE who = '$who' AND language = '$language'; if(mysql_num_rows($query) = intval("0")) return true; (\n) else return false; (\n) } (\n) } $ll = new likes; (\n) echo $ll->doeshelikeit("lament", "phyton")."<br>".$ll->doeshelikeit("lament", "php"); ?>
19:10:36 <lament> amazing. Now i see the light.
19:11:00 <ihope> lamentLikes x = length x == 6 && head x == 'P' && head (tail x) == 'y' && head (tail (tail x)) == 't' && head (tail (tail (tail x))) = 'h' && head (tail (tail (tail (tail x)))) = 'o' && head (tail (tail (tail (tail (tail x))))) = 'n'
19:11:13 <ihope> Sorry. I can't write code that huge and ugly in Haskell.
19:15:19 <nickie12> That algorithm should replace the implementation of the "Hello world" application! :D
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19:20:32 <fizzie> sub lament_likes { my $x = shift; $x =~ s/(.)(.)/\2\1/g; return $x eq pack('H*', '795068746e6f'); }
19:20:38 <fizzie> Didn't see the Perl version anywhere.
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19:23:27 * pikhq curses very, very loudly. . .
19:26:21 <lament> fizzie: i mean, too short!
19:27:47 <nickie12> OK, I did an implementation of the "algorithm" in AppleScript :D
19:27:58 <pgimeno> if lament_likes returns False, does that mean that lament likes False?
19:28:34 <lament> wow, this applescript thing is braindamaged.
19:29:02 <nickie12> AppleScript is supposed to be an english-like scripting language...
19:29:09 <lament> although i guess not as evil as x=y
19:29:21 <lament> (which ought to be equality, not assignment)
19:29:38 <lament> x:=y is probably the best
19:30:06 <pikhq> set lang PHP;if {[string compare $lang Python]} {set ::lament::likes 1} else {set ::lament::likes 0}
19:30:08 <lament> actually the Smalltalk way is the best.
19:30:22 <lament> except that the <- is a single character
19:30:37 <nickie12> the shortest version in php :P
19:31:01 <pgimeno> I know of a language where assignment is <- (less-than, dash)
19:31:02 <nickie12> if(language == "Python") lament_likes = "yes";
19:31:16 <lament> pgimeno: but smalltalk is prettier.
19:31:18 <lindi-> procedure lament_likes(x) is begin return x = "Python"; end lament_likes;
19:31:25 <pikhq> The Tcl way is nice, since it conforms to everything else in the language (Yay, Polish notation!)
19:31:36 <lament> (however in absence of a special <- character, you have to use x _ y in smalltalk)
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19:32:15 <pikhq> *sigh* Tcl would be evil if it used RPN.
19:32:29 <pgimeno> yuck, I prefer := much better than _
19:32:55 <pikhq> [bar foo set] would set $foo to bar if RPN was used. Glad that it's not. . .
19:33:48 <fizzie> The Multimedia ToolBook scripting language is much more dain-bramaged.
19:33:55 <pgimeno> (plus I'm slightly Pascal-oriented, Borland flavour)
19:35:52 <lament> : lament_likes s" python" compare ;
19:36:02 <lament> (i _think_ that's the correct forth)
19:36:21 <fizzie> put "yes" into text of field "lament"
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19:41:48 <fizzie> /lament_likes { (Python) eq } def
19:42:10 <lament> "n"-#v_"o"-#v_"h"-#v_"t"-#v_"y"-#v_"p"-#v_1>
19:42:22 <lament> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>0^
19:47:59 <fizzie> If you want a stand-alone program that reads from input, it's as easy as:
19:48:00 <fizzie> 0"nohtyP">:#v_025*".sey">:#,_@
19:49:28 <fizzie> Well, the program would say "no." to that, but Befunge it is.
19:59:30 <nickie12> can anyone paint it for piet? *laugh*
20:00:50 <GreyKnight> I haven't got any generic string-handling functions for Piet
20:01:01 <GreyKnight> All I have is one for printing strings
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20:22:19 <nickie12> Please recognize that I say hello to Sgeo
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20:56:59 * GreyKnight doubts anyone recognizes that language
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21:54:17 * CakeProphet figures out how to create a Turing Complete language with only one variable.
21:54:35 <CakeProphet> I mean... the language itself has access to only one variable.
21:59:44 <lament> some turing-complete languages have no variables.
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22:11:23 <GreyKnight> I managed to create a segfault earlier... sadly it was in a process EgoBot was piping in from :-(
22:11:56 <lament> who is this nickie12 character
22:17:33 <CakeProphet> Apparently he doesn't know what a cat program does. :)
22:29:14 * GreyKnight wonders what language he was trying to put through the cat anyway
22:30:16 <GregorR-W> Really, it desperately needs a ; :-P
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00:11:49 <CakeProphet> I feel like proving wikisyntax is turing complete.
00:13:13 <GreyKnight> we need some sort of reward for these challenges >:-(
00:14:09 <CakeProphet> It'd be really shoddy... but I'm thinking we could use a {{BFarray}} template that contains a bunch of if templates... each one checking a number... if the parameter of the template equals a number in one of the ifs... then the BFarray template will return something.
00:14:46 <CakeProphet> but... how would you alter the returned templates any deeper?
00:15:30 <GregorR-W> I feel like wiki syntax is probably not TC.
00:15:53 <CakeProphet> I think it's possible... just... insanely difficult.
00:16:22 <CakeProphet> It has control flow... something similar to variables... and returnable functions that intake parameters... so.... it's pretty close.
00:17:01 <GreyKnight> Looking at semi-Thue systems might be instructive if you're looking into this
00:17:16 <GreyKnight> ISTM there's some connection between the two
00:19:12 <GreyKnight> well, the whole idea of computing by replacing strings with each other
00:19:40 <GregorR-W> I was actually asking CakeProphet if there's recursion or iteration :P
00:20:30 <CakeProphet> Well... wikimedia software purposely blocks infinite loops to prevent.. uh... well..
00:21:00 <CakeProphet> iteration... don't think so... but given the tools you have you -might- be able to create iteration... somehow...
00:21:04 <GreyKnight> Well, you're only interested in the language, not the implementation
00:21:31 <CakeProphet> The software prevents infinite loops... but otherwise I'd say it's possible to do recursion.
00:22:07 <CakeProphet> If they can make an if template out of scratch... I'm guessing iteration is possible too.
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00:24:15 <CakeProphet> It can also except input... in the form of the <inputbox> code... which could be used to alter templates... which are going to be the building blocks of any sort of TC wikisyntax.
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02:16:45 * GreyKnight trips over pikhq's corpse as it comes back to life
02:55:36 <Razor-X> I hate Wiki markup, so I'd rather prove TeX is turing complete... but that's trivial to prove :P.
02:56:36 <Razor-X> Do I get a reward for implementing the Ackermann function in Scheme, CakeProphet ?
02:56:43 <Razor-X> And the entire 1.5 minutes I spend on it?
02:57:19 <Razor-X> But, because of that, I feel like plotting this function on a 3D graph.
02:59:05 <Razor-X> Did you enter the competition, by the way?
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04:12:10 <GreyKnight> (defun ackermann (a b) (cond ((= a 0) (1+ b)) ((and (> a 0)(= b 0)) (ackermann (1- a) 1)) ((and (> a 0)(> b 0)) (ackermann (1- a) (ackermann a (1- b)))) ))
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05:27:05 <Razor-X> What if I feed it a non-integer?
05:29:12 <GreyKnight> Well, non-integers don't exist in the language yet :-P
05:29:34 <Razor-X> Wow. Sounds mighty useful :P.
05:29:45 <Razor-X> Time to stare at more ABNF goodness.
05:31:07 <Razor-X> Ah, here's the distinguishing point between servername and the alternative.
05:31:19 <Razor-X> It's funny, because x / y isn't technically part of the ABNF standard, but it's used everywhere.
05:32:07 <Razor-X> MEABNF we'll have soon enough.
05:32:31 <GreyKnight> SHDMEABNFWXYZ-andapartridgeinapeartree
05:35:13 <GreyKnight> Hm... I am going to have to make setf places work properly before I can put in decent hash tables
05:35:20 <Razor-X> But after I write the parser, things should go easier from there, and maybe I'll ease my conscience enough to write a program that plots the Ackermann function.
05:35:54 <GreyKnight> I don't think Ackermann will look very interesting as a graph :-P
05:36:05 <Razor-X> I think it would look pretty whacky.
05:36:49 <Razor-X> Of course, both a and b would have to be graphed only on intervals of [1, 5] :D.
05:37:13 <Razor-X> Anything more will take ages to evaluate.
05:37:14 <GreyKnight> and interpolated between, unless you know how to extend it to real numbers
05:37:41 <Razor-X> Well, it's a graph, I'm not trying to prove a theorem through induction.
05:38:39 <GreyKnight> Just pointing out that a collection of 25 points mightn't be very fascinating without an interpolated surface between them
05:39:14 <GreyKnight> It's monotonic in both arguments, though, so no pretty features :-(
05:40:04 <GreyKnight> Just a sheet that suddenly shoots off vertically
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05:43:36 <Razor-X> Hmmmm. Does any IRC server omit the prefix?
05:49:40 <fizzie> If you mean the ":foo" part of the message, it's legal to omit it, so you should allow for that, no matter what current servers do.
05:55:12 <GregorR> Nearly got my GNU/Linux system set up on my Mac LC580 8-D
06:00:09 <fizzie> I used to run GNU/Linux on a Performa 5200, but that's a few orders of magnitude more normal; it's a ppc box, not a 68k one. (Although it's also a very silly box: http://www.lowendmac.com/roadapples/x200.shtml )
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06:03:44 <GregorR> Mine was probably a road apple too.
06:16:24 <Razor-X> Incredible, FreeNode's ping timeout is just incredible.
06:16:53 <Razor-X> I was gone for 30 minutes, and the PING request wasn't ponged and it's still alive :D.
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10:11:39 <pgimeno> I've received a spam with this plaintext content:
10:12:29 <pgimeno> made me wonder if it is a short program written in a variant of Ook!
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20:40:14 <ihope> So it's Python, Perl, PHP, and Ruby?
20:41:20 <kipple_> is there a language called Puny yet? if not, i might have to make one...
20:46:45 <kipple_> it would of course be weakly typed
20:49:14 <ihope> Weakly typed but with static typing?
20:49:41 <ihope> And you'd have to give types for everything, but the types wouldn't do anything?
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22:06:21 <ihope> Selling cake for more than you buy it for = prophet?
22:26:24 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht").
22:50:30 <ihope> Profit = prophet, aye?
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23:41:19 <alex89ru> Has anyone of you already writtem your own esoteric language?
23:41:26 <alex89ru> maybe an interpreted language?
23:42:07 <GregorR-W> I'd go so far as to say /most/ of us.
23:43:19 <alex89ru> are most of this languages interpreted or comnpiled?
23:43:41 <GregorR-W> Probably slightly more are interpreted, but many are both.
23:43:45 <kipple_> I guess most of them are interpreted
23:44:36 <alex89ru> kipple_ , GregorR have specialy YOU written some esoteric languages too? If so, have you published these?
23:44:40 <kipple_> so, have you made any esoteric languages then?
23:45:13 <GregorR-W> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Gregor_Richards
23:45:19 <kipple_> http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/kipple/
23:45:47 <kipple_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page is really the place to go
23:51:44 <alex89ru> Is it hard to develop one esoteric language? ( I assume, that it is not hard for interpreted esoteric languages, but maybe I'm wrong??? )
00:05:09 <GreyKnight> I've got this Lego-based language sorted, I think ;-)
00:05:55 <pikhq> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Dimensifuck is mine.
00:06:05 <pikhq> It's hard to develop a *good* one.
00:06:28 -!- tgwizard has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:06:57 <pikhq> No, a simple one can be good.
00:07:14 <pikhq> A mediocre/bad one? Easy to design.
00:07:23 <GreyKnight> There's a world of difference between "simple to use" and "simple to implement", of course :-)
00:07:25 <pikhq> Look at most of the Brainfuck variants as an example.
00:07:34 <pikhq> GreyKnight: Simple to implement, of course.
00:07:48 <pikhq> Simple to use wouldn't be esoteric. :p
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00:09:28 <alex89ru> The 2D esoteric languages are really cool :)
00:09:48 * pikhq lubs Dimensifuck still
00:10:50 * GreyKnight considers whether to add OGEL to the wiki now or after he's written an implementation
00:11:58 <Razor-X> Dimensif*ck is a 2D language though ;).
00:12:26 <pikhq> Razor-X: That's only because I haven't yet written a proper ooD program in it.
00:12:35 <pikhq> I've got sketches, but that's it right now.
00:12:59 <pikhq> alex89ru: She just argues that DF is topologically 2D, and that Befunge is topologically 1D. . .
00:13:30 <Razor-X> Befunge is topologically 2D as well.
00:13:40 <Razor-X> Because at any given time you can move in two dimensions.
00:13:51 <pikhq> Not in Befunge. -_-'
00:14:23 <pikhq> Still. . . I really should redesign Dimensifuck so that you'll shut up. ;)
00:14:48 <alex89ru> In which languages have you implemnted the interpreters/compilers?
00:14:53 * GreyKnight ponders a 2D language which edge-wraps into a Klein bottle rather than a torus >:-)
00:15:21 <Razor-X> See, at any given point, you can move in any direction ;).
00:15:42 <pikhq> And, in DF, you can move in any direction from any point. . .
00:16:17 <pikhq> In Befunge, just like in DF, you can't move in two (or more) directions *at once*. . .
00:16:41 <Razor-X> What's the hardcoded instruction to move in the positive direction in the 90th dimension?
00:17:02 <pikhq> It takes multiple instructions. . .
00:17:29 <pikhq> And how am I supposed to fix that and have each operation take up one character?
00:17:47 <GregorR-W> One character == one unicode character
00:17:48 <GreyKnight> and still address an infinite number of dimensions, for that matter?
00:18:20 <GregorR-W> One cell = any number of bytes beginning with '1'
00:18:21 <CakeProphet> There's a bunch of ways you could do it.... if you wanted to be fancy you could...
00:18:33 <GregorR-W> Then cut off the beginning '1's and stick all the bytes together for a bignum.
00:18:34 <Razor-X> How can you generate an infinite number of characters?
00:18:35 <CakeProphet> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[^-]
00:18:55 <Razor-X> CakeProphet: That's not one command.
00:19:09 <GreyKnight> multi-byte cells could do it, but that doesn't look as nice
00:19:12 <Razor-X> You still end up executing ^ repeatedly.
00:19:24 <CakeProphet> Isn't the point of BF to be minimal? What good does having a command for it do?
00:19:45 <Razor-X> Make it topologically equivalent to a n-dimensional space.
00:20:12 * CakeProphet simulates infinity by adding to the arrays when they need adding to.
00:20:26 <Razor-X> I can ``flatten'' any Dimensif*ck program in any number of dimensions in Befunge.
00:26:58 <Razor-X> Oh, I'm wrong, it's topologically three dimensions.
00:27:34 <Razor-X> I should add that to the Wiki entry too.
00:50:56 <alex89ru> I deliberated about an new esoteric language, but i have no originally idea :(
00:52:32 <GreyKnight> Then think how you could compute with that :-)
00:52:50 <alex89ru> an esoteric language that handles with flowers? xD a 2D flowerfield^^
00:53:47 <GreyKnight> things about flowers that come to mind include daisy chains
00:55:58 <alex89ru> it sounds a kind of abstract, such a language that handles with flowers etc
00:58:16 <alex89ru> But how should the source code look like?^^
00:59:48 <GreyKnight> You could have different kinds of flowe
01:00:05 <Razor-X> Think outside of BF, for Esome's sake!
01:01:26 <alex89ru> i need a method ( syntax ) to output some text to shellö
01:01:58 <GreyKnight> suppose different kinds of flower perform different operations, and data is streamed from one to another via pollen
01:03:27 <alex89ru> hmm thx, flowers sounds originally^^
01:03:48 <Razor-X> I had an idea about sine curves and interference.
01:04:57 <alex89ru> hmm, how would you save your sourcecode? in simple text files or as an image or another binary way?
01:05:28 <GreyKnight> text would maybe be easier, although a graphical interpreter could be very pretty ;-)
01:06:02 <Razor-X> That would put people like me away from it :P.
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01:06:33 <alex89ru> Razor-X, but sine curves with drawn with '/' '\' etc ?
01:06:35 <GreyKnight> well, you could have both kinds of interpreter!
01:07:06 <Razor-X> alex89ru: No BF style notation!
01:07:17 <Razor-X> I have no interest in copying BF and/or making another Turing Tarpit!
01:07:39 <Razor-X> It's been done to death, revived, done to death again, and is continuing ad infinitum.
01:07:53 <Razor-X> You can only be so esoteric when you all follow one model -_-''.
01:08:56 <alex89ru> Razor-X, sorry , my english skills aren't so good but i mean: sine curves drwan with '\' and '/' etc as a kind of ASCII ART
01:10:13 <Razor-X> I was thinking specifying period and amplitude specifically.
01:23:25 <alex89ru> okay thank you for your advice
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06:25:56 * GregorR has breathed life into his olde m68k >: )
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06:35:45 <Razor-X> We have a lot of those around mid summer.
06:36:13 <Razor-X> But this machine has been up for 36 days now, so :).
06:36:52 <pgimeno> my personal uptime record is just 90 days, I think I need a new UPS
06:37:12 <Razor-X> I don't own a UPS 'r nothin'.
06:37:23 <Razor-X> Just good 'ol surge protector, $5, from 1995.
06:37:57 <Razor-X> Emacs crashed twice and X hasn't crashed yet, which means this box can still last quite a while yet.
06:39:48 <pgimeno> all my uptime fiascos have been due to either power outages or kernel upgrades
06:40:19 <Razor-X> Luckily the kernel branch hasn't gotten anything worth updating for recently.
06:41:08 <Razor-X> Do, mi nun devas lerni vortoj por Japano. Saluton tutaj homoj, Atendus pri mi!
06:41:16 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah- that's one of the areas OSX fails- I've never had more than about two weeks of uptime, because security updates (among other things) need a restart.
06:48:29 <pgimeno> Razor-X: oh btw, Google is not very brilliant (as expectable) in translating Japanese text but it would be great for me to understand this paper: http://www.sakabe.i.is.nagoya-u.ac.jp/~nishida/DB/pdf/iizawa05ss2005-22.pdf
06:49:05 <Razor-X> Paper? Heh, I doubt I have enough skill to translate a scientific paper.
06:49:31 <pgimeno> the partial translation I've made is here: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/malbolge-jap-eng.html
06:49:36 <Razor-X> Scientific vocabulary adds a good 500 Kanji to the list of Kanji you should know, and I'm nowhere complete.
06:50:08 <Razor-X> I'll do it after I'm done with my vocabulary for today.
06:51:14 <pgimeno> you can even learn Malbolge as you go :)
06:51:29 <Razor-X> I'm struggling with young adult novels, just to give you an idea of my skill level in Japanese.
06:52:32 <pgimeno> if you can disentangle Google's translation that would be enough
06:52:45 <pgimeno> 4.1 Ability OPR and ROTATE order as a function of operator op are suitable to the bit operation and shift operation of C language.
06:53:52 <pgimeno> (that's made by systematically copying line by line the text into Google, quite tedious)
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12:58:36 <nooga> sHoWeL -> Hei Writing Language
13:09:44 <nooga> have u got some other samples?
13:15:46 <GreyKnight> @<0,0>{@<1,0>(YWYsYBWsYWG)} @<0,0>(WBsWBsWB)
13:17:14 <GreyKnight> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/OGEL
13:17:44 <GreyKnight> excuse the mess, the page is half-finished... try the link at the bottom to the original specification for some more info :-o
13:18:17 <GreyKnight> It's a language made from lego bricks :-D
13:21:50 <pikhq> That means that Razor-X isn't likely to complain.
13:24:57 <nooga> it could be simulated by real lego bricks
13:28:10 <GreyKnight> Using minifigures for the processors :-D
13:28:48 <nooga> i'm in fscking love
13:46:31 <nooga> i think it would be possible to program OGEL using MLCAD
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13:48:06 * pikhq feels like t3h shit
13:49:04 <nooga> ocmpile MLCAD output files and un them ;d
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15:08:43 <nooga> http://www.loken.pl/~afurman/poland.html
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15:43:50 <nooga> author has a complex
15:45:10 <GreyKnight> The author has a stick up his bottom :-)
15:46:17 <GreyKnight> Anyone who actually believes that Pole/Scotsman/Irishman/etc jokes represent actual solid fact is too far gone to have everything cleared up by a few declarative paragraphs
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16:13:41 <GreyKnight> Your source code would be a set of webpages, linking to each other
16:14:16 <GreyKnight> possibly rivalling OGEL for the position of best language evar
16:14:43 <nooga> programs distributed between weblogs :d
16:15:09 <GreyKnight> you could publish a function library on your site and other people could use it just by linking to it :-)
16:16:35 <GregorR-W> You just described JavaScript. I don't care what you're actually talking about, you just described JavaScript.
16:16:56 <GreyKnight> I mean that the network of hyperlinks actually *is* the code
16:16:57 <GregorR-W> Mind you, I only saw the last bit :-P
16:17:50 <GreyKnight> I guess you could make some sort of foreign-function-call interface to JS
16:19:15 <GregorR-W> On an only vaguely-related subject, I made some improvements to Plof :P
16:21:56 <nooga> io would be content
16:22:58 <GreyKnight> wait wait... I guess the code has to be *executed*, so the interpreter can do all the I/O :-P
16:23:30 <GreyKnight> You could have a click-to-execute network, but it'd basically be a JS-implemented compiled version
16:24:22 <nooga> working network can print strings to documents
16:25:46 <GreyKnight> I should make an actual spec instead of meaningless chatter
16:26:04 <nooga> tyhe net should consist of specially prepared documents
16:26:38 <GreyKnight> It will for any sensible program, but any network of links should be, in theory, executable
16:27:24 <nooga> what's that GregorR?
16:28:03 * GreyKnight waits for pastebin.ca to catch up with the real world
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16:34:49 <GreyKnight> You just described JavaScript. I don't care what you're actually talking about, you just described JavaScript.
16:35:48 <GregorR-W> It's somewhat similar to JavaScript. But less ugly.
16:35:54 <GregorR-W> IMHO it has a more robust object system.
16:36:21 <GregorR-W> You'll note that plof2js is the only compiler ATM ;)
16:39:29 <ihope> So what's Plof have for arrays/lists?
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16:40:06 <ihope> What's the difference?
16:40:35 <GregorR-W> Arrays are numeric, always contain x elements where x is max_element_number+1, and are stored like arrays.
16:40:58 <GregorR-W> Associative arrays are by-string, and are arranged in a system-defined way.
16:41:57 <GregorR-W> Also, associative arrays == objects == classes.
16:42:15 <ihope> So what can you do with an associative array?
16:42:17 <nooga> class is an object?
16:42:28 <GregorR-W> nooga: It's prototype-based object orientation.
16:42:46 <GregorR-W> ihope: Store mappings of values to other values.
16:43:13 <ihope> So it's an array thing indexed by strings?
16:43:45 <GregorR-W> Check any language newer than C :-P
16:43:59 <nooga> i mean those classes that r objects
16:44:11 <GregorR-W> Ruby is class-based, not prototype-based, IIRC.
16:44:25 <ihope> So Plof is dynamically typed?
16:44:49 <nooga> it's like: myClass = Class.new; myClass.methods["blah"] = Proc.new {do_something}
16:44:51 <ihope> Is it duck typing or something else?
16:45:32 <GregorR-W> ihope: Sort of. Also, objects carry with them a type array which references every object they're derived from.
16:45:42 <GregorR-W> So you can, instead of using duck typing, check if the type matches.
16:45:57 <GregorR-W> Hence it implements class-like inheritance, interfaces, etc.
16:46:02 <ihope> If the type matches, it's a duck?
16:46:18 <GregorR-W> Well, that's not strictly duck typing :P
16:46:34 <GreyKnight> "If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck"?
16:47:42 <ihope> So how many languages have both "return" statements and "result" variables?
16:48:11 <nooga> result stmt is shit
16:48:39 <ihope> Well, if you can take "return" as a parameter...
16:48:59 <nooga> and moreover, i like when block returns result of last statement if theres no return within
16:49:27 <GregorR-W> Plof can be used functionally - that is, any function can be described as an expression instead of a series of statements.
16:49:48 <ihope> In pseudo-C: id(result){}
16:49:59 <ihope> That'd be the identity function.
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17:29:38 <ihope> Hmm. Goldbach's conjecture is clearly true.
17:29:52 <ihope> Not that I can prove that :-P
17:30:20 <GreyKnight> "It is comparatively easy to make clever guesses; indeed there are theorems, like 'Goldbach's Theorem,' which have never been proved and which any fool could have guessed."
17:31:13 <ihope> You didn't tell me where it was from! YOU'RE A THEIF!
17:31:27 <GreyKnight> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/GoldbachConjecture.html
17:31:32 <ihope> Or a THIEF. Something like that.
17:34:49 <ihope> They're gonna come and arrets you.
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18:09:12 * GreyKnight decides whether or not to implement this language as a Kolmogorov machine
18:12:19 <GregorR-W> DO IT! DON'T DO IT! DO IT! DON'T DO IT!
18:13:55 <GreyKnight> It's the part where a K machine can add vertices to the network that troubles me
18:15:20 <GreyKnight> I guess I can pull it off... it's not like the modified network is being written back to the intarnets
18:16:45 <GregorR-W> DO IT! DON'T DO IT! DO IT! DON'T DO IT!
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22:33:22 <ihope> I feel all leet and stuff because I created a redirect from #haskel to #haskell.
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22:37:44 <GreyKnight> Re http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Kolmogorov_machine : Does anyone have pointers on this addressability requirement of the Kolmogorov property? It's very hard to find any resources on this topic.
22:44:02 <ihope> My interpretation: the vertices must form a tree, and each edge must have a name such that there can't be two edges with the same name on one vertex.
22:44:48 <ihope> "An alternate technique is to use a directed graph and simply to label the edges of the graph, with a different label bestowed upon each out-edge of a vertex."
22:44:52 <GreyKnight> well, the wiki says that's *sufficient* for the condition to be met
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22:47:17 <GreyKnight> hmm, this paper I found seems to indicate that the resulting string of labels from a point constitutes a relative "address" for the target point, which seems plausible
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22:49:04 <fizzie> The addressability requirement _sounds_ like it means just that you need to be able to have a vertex r and a function f:V,X->V (where X is some set, and V the set of vertices), for which it holds that for all v \in V, there is a x \in X, for which f(r, x) = v.
22:51:47 <ihope> I can redirect ##quantum wherever I want! Muahaha!
22:52:11 <GregorR-W> Somehow I don't think there's a #bearcave on FreeNode.
22:52:26 <GregorR-W> Unless it's the main channel for HomOS
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22:52:52 <GreyKnight> #bearcave 3 Idle here and set up an ON JOIN script if you are cool xD
22:53:29 <fizzie> If it _really_ is "wherever", just redirect it to #bearcave on some other network.
22:55:02 <ihope> Actually, I'll do the reverse, and have #debian, #gentoo, ##linux, and #ubuntu all redirect to ##quantum.
22:55:29 <GreyKnight> Hmm; it's an interesting point that K machines are pretty similar to the human brain
22:56:57 <GreyKnight> Nobody seems to have presented any suggestions on how to actually go about storing data in these things :-\
22:57:55 <ihope> There's a command to add a node, no?
22:58:54 <ihope> Nodes can be used as storage by using dummy links. It's the links that the little bug thing sees, isn't it?
22:59:20 <GreyKnight> It looks at the shape of the graph in a certain radius (>=2) around the current node
22:59:45 <GreyKnight> so the data is being stored in the topology somehow, I guess
22:59:52 <ihope> Oh, say, why don't I have ##quantum redirect to some honeypot channel thingy?
23:00:41 <GreyKnight> "number of edges connecting the current node to dead-end nodes"?
23:00:55 <GreyKnight> That could encode any non-negative integer
23:02:19 <ihope> Counting them is inefficient.
23:02:39 <ihope> Call them data1, data2, data3, etc., and store a bit in whether they exist or not.
23:03:20 <GreyKnight> based on the label attached to the edge going to that node?
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23:04:04 <GreyKnight> The number of different labels in use has to be finite, though
23:05:34 <GreyKnight> this approach has the advantage that it can deal with negative quantities, so that's good
23:05:54 <GreyKnight> but as it stands, it seems the values will be restricted :-\
23:07:14 <GreyKnight> Unless... use some of the labels for bit positions, then have one that can be used to "extend" to another set of bits (it links to a node with more bit-position-edges sprouting off it)
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23:07:42 <GreyKnight> That'd get you any number of bit positions, but keeps it simple when you only have a small range
23:09:35 <GreyKnight> I'm intrigued that there is talk of a "current node", but apparently no command for changing it :-\
23:23:13 <ihope> "The Windows honeypot is an unpatched version of Windows 2000 or Windows XP. This system is thus very vulnerable to attacks and normally it takes only a couple of minutes before it is successfully compromised."
23:25:41 <ihope> Are Windows machines really that full of holes?
23:26:08 <GreyKnight> I guess if the processor has some internal value set to one of the possible labels (to move down an edge) or "nil" (to stay put), that could manage movement
23:26:54 <GreyKnight> adding/removing vertices/edges requires some means of addressing them, so it'd need to have storage for sequences of labels too
23:27:56 <fizzie> The "survival time" counter in http://isc.sans.org/ is currently at 16 minutes.
23:29:07 <GreyKnight> it should be stored in some sort of graph :-)