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00:58:53 <Razor-X> Why are they so oftenly taught to CS students when they're incredibly cumbersome to manage?
00:59:07 <Razor-X> Although if you want an INTERCAL-esque language, trees are the way to go ;).
00:59:22 <lament> because they're an incredibly useful data structure with really cool properties?
00:59:38 <lament> AND a classic example of recursive algorithms
01:00:02 <GreyKnight> I think a binary tree might be pretty useful here
01:00:05 <Razor-X> I guess if you want to search for something in a data structure recursively, trees are useful, but other than that.....
01:01:03 <GreyKnight> specifying an edge requires specifying two nodes at the same time
01:07:59 <GreyKnight> Razor-X: did you see my spec for that lego-based language I mentioned before?
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01:08:56 <GreyKnight> <pikhq> That means that Razor-X isn't likely to complain.
01:14:54 <Razor-X> If I get time later today I want to program a CRC32 checksum generator in Scheme as something kinda-useful.
01:15:11 <Razor-X> What does a generator do if the file you're creating a checksum of is less than 4 bytes? Pad the file to 4 bytes, or truncate the key?
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01:37:29 <GreyKnight> The reversal thing is a complete coincidence, of course!
01:37:55 <Razor-X> That was my router being idiotic, by the way.
01:39:12 <Razor-X> No need to be afraid, my uptime is alright.
01:40:41 <Razor-X> Mmmm. Slide rules are cool.
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01:54:53 <Sgeo> What reversal thing?
01:57:21 <pikhq> http://thedailywtf.com/forums/thread/31621.aspx MY BRAIN!!!
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03:00:08 <pikhq> My thoughts exactly.
03:00:24 <Razor-X> I haven't read the link though :D.
03:58:54 <CakeProphet> Or ( sqrt( (18 * 1/5)/1)/1) )/1 )^2 for clarity
03:59:45 <GregorR> I don't know sqrt off the top of my head :-P
04:03:22 <CakeProphet> GregorR, Omit the square root and the exponent then :D
04:03:47 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
04:03:49 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
04:03:59 <EgoBot> /bin/bash: /opt/sablevm/bin/sablevm: No such file or directory
04:04:20 * pikhq would prefer to do that in RPN.
04:04:27 <GregorR> BAHAHAHAHAHAH - FreeCiv was NOT meant to run on 800x600 XD
04:04:51 <EgoBot> 51 +++++++++++[>+++>++++++++++>><<<<-]>-..>--.+++.---. [191]
04:05:18 <pikhq> 18 1 5/*1/1/2v1/2^
04:13:49 <EgoBot> 138 ++++++++++++[>++++++>+++>++++++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>-----.>>+.>-.<++++.<----.>++++.++++++++++.<.>------.------------.++++++.++.------.--.>+. [696]
04:18:11 <EgoBot> 61 +++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++>><<<<-]>--.>.<---.++++++++. [64]
04:20:16 <pikhq> !bf_txtgen It's better on localhost.
04:20:41 <EgoBot> 186 +++++++++++++[>++++++>+++>+++++++++>++++++++<<<<-]>-----.>>-.<.>-.<-------.<+++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++.>>+..>---.<--.<.>---.-.<.<+++++++.>>+.>--.--.<<<.----.>>.++++.+.<++++++++++++++. [368]
04:21:28 <GregorR> That's because I cut it off.
04:21:37 <GregorR> It never stops otherwise :P
04:22:15 <pikhq> 199 +++++++++++++[>+++++++++>++++++>+++++++++>+++<<<<-]>>-----.>-.<+++++++++++++++++++.>>.<-.>-------.<<++++++.+++.<-..>.>-.>.<---.-.>.<<+++++++.>+.------------.--.<.----.+++++++.++++.+.>>++++++++++++++. [678]
04:22:34 <pikhq> !bf +++++++++++++[>+++++++++>++++++>+++++++++>+++<<<<-]>>-----.>-.<+++++++++++++++++++.>>.<-.>-------.<<++++++.+++.<-..>.>-.>.<---.-.>.<<+++++++.>+.------------.--.<.----.+++++++.++++.+.>>++++++++++++++.
04:22:37 <EgoBot> It\'s better on localhost.
04:24:22 <pikhq> !bf ++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++>++++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>+++.>>++++.<---.>-.<-------.>>.+++.<+..>.<--.<.>---.-.<.>>+++++++.<+.------------.--.>.<+++++++.>+++.++++.+.<<++++++++++++++.
04:24:25 <EgoBot> It's better on localhost.
04:26:09 <pikhq> !bf_txtgen AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
04:26:20 <pikhq> Watch as it produces something ridiculously complex.
04:26:35 <EgoBot> 60 +++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++>><<<<-]>...........>.....<....... [499]
04:26:35 <GregorR> Not ridiculously, but still complex, yeah.
05:02:12 * GregorR attempts to compile supertux for m68k, to run on his LC580
05:07:15 <GregorR> Nothing less debuggable on this planet.
05:07:24 <GregorR> It popped up a window though!
05:07:30 <GregorR> So it's at least somewhere!
05:07:41 <GregorR> Maybe it assumed that I'd compiled in JPEG support :P
05:07:57 <GregorR> And told SDL_image to open a .jpg without actually verifying that it worked.
05:08:13 <GregorR> (I pray for this case because it's trivial to fix ;) )
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05:18:02 <GregorR> This proc, btw, is 32MHz :P
05:30:58 <GregorR> Come ooooooooooooooooon supertux! You can DO it!
05:31:24 <pikhq> Slower than my *calculator*.
05:31:46 <GregorR> Actually, I wouldn't be particularly surprised if your calculator had the same type of proc (m68k)
05:32:01 <pikhq> Except that mine is a 66mhz ARM9. . .
05:32:11 <GregorR> OMG IT SORT OF STARTED RUNNING
05:32:49 * pikhq hugs his HP 49g+ a bit
05:36:05 <GregorR> Something tells me I'm not going to be playing supertux any time soon :-P
05:36:13 <GregorR> Any suggestions for a game to try to port?
05:36:20 <GregorR> It has to be more than nethack :P
05:37:22 <pikhq> What are you running on?
05:38:03 <GregorR> Macintosh LC 580 (m68k/32MHz) + Debian 2.2 (Potato) + custom-built libs
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06:43:07 <Razor-X> !bf_txtgen Cursing makes me sound cool.
06:43:35 <EgoBot> 210 +++++++++++[>+++>++++++++++>++++++>+++++++++++<<<<-]>>>+.>----.---.+.<++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<.>--.<<-.>-.>------.<--.>++++.>.<<<.>++.>.<<.>>>.<<++.>>++.-------.<-.<<.>>-.<..---.<++++++++++++++. [619]
06:43:48 <Razor-X> !bf +++++++++++[>+++>++++++++++>++++++>+++++++++++<<<<-]>>>+.>----.---.+.<++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<.>--.<<-.>-.>------.<--.>++++.>.<<<.>++.>.<<.>>>.<<++.>>++.-------.<-.<<.>>-.<..---.<++++++++++++++.
06:43:51 <EgoBot> Cursing makes me sound cool.
06:44:25 <Razor-X> I should use some of my summer-learned statistics to run some lay statistical analyses on bf_txtgen.
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14:25:35 <ihope> I just typo'd /attach as /chanserv. Kill me.
14:31:39 <fizzie> Mr. Stabby, laa-la la-la-laa.
14:51:35 <ihope> [INFO] Connecting to irc://127.0.0.1/ (irc://127.0.0.1/), attempt 1, next attempt in 15 seconds...
14:51:45 <ihope> [ERROR] Connection to irc://127.0.0.1/ (irc://127.0.0.1/) refused.
14:51:52 <ihope> [ERROR] Connection to irc://127.0.0.1/ (irc://127.0.0.1/) closed.
14:51:59 <ihope> The connection was refused, then closed?
14:52:56 <GreyKnight> maybe just an artifact of the points in the code those messages are generated at
14:53:34 <ihope> Maybe my computer thinks it has a firewall.
14:57:00 <fizzie> Might well be a client that "opens" a "connection" (some sort of internal data structure), gets a "connection refused" network reply (and prints the first ERROR), then destroys the internal connection object thing (second ERROR).
14:57:58 <ihope> Well, if I don't have the ircd running, it just says "refused". If it is running, I get both "refused" and "closed".
15:01:40 <fizzie> I _guess_ in theory it could print "connection refused" even when the _ircd_ sends a "not welcome" reply, but that'd be very silly.
15:06:31 <ihope> I doubt the ircd said I'm not welcome. It's my ircd, after all.
15:06:57 <GreyKnight> Maybe your computer hates you, and this is its revenge :-)
15:07:39 <ihope> Oh, and trying to telnet to 127.0.0.1 on port 6667 says "connect failed".
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15:49:12 <ihope> GreyKnight: was that a question or a suggestion?
15:49:24 <GreyKnight> I was wondering where the iron chain came from
15:49:51 <ihope> Nope, it was a wand of nick.
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16:13:32 <GregorR-W> Us, two weeks ago: "The default version of vim is changing to 7.0 in two weeks."
16:13:51 <GregorR-W> Us, one week ago: "The default version of vim is changing to 7.0 in one week."
16:13:54 <GregorR-W> Us, one day ago: "The default version of vim is changing to 7.0 tomorrow."
16:14:11 <GregorR-W> Them, today: "zomg my vimrc broke u sux"
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16:56:26 <ihope> I see it uses many braces in weird places.
16:56:35 * ihope stabs GregorR-W with a {
16:56:55 <GregorR-W> They're all in fairly reasonable places.
16:57:03 <GregorR-W> Though }); has sort of become Plof's motto :P
16:58:10 <ihope> It looks like a wonky emoticon.
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16:59:25 <GreyKnight> It's an emoticon who is sad because his fake moustache has fallen down to his chin
16:59:57 <GreyKnight> And possibly whatever knocked it off has poked him in one eye
17:00:29 <ihope> Okay, so where do the braces go?
17:00:49 <ihope> {foobar} seems to mean... well, maybe it contains blocks and operators and such.
17:01:17 <GregorR-W> ihope: It's a functional language. {foobar} defines an anonymous function which returns the value in the variable "foobar"
17:01:48 <ihope> So foobar is a variable and {foobar} is its value, or what?
17:02:02 <GregorR-W> No, {foobar} is a function which returns its value.
17:05:44 <GregorR-W> You call if with the parameters of the condition and the function you'd like called if the condition is true.
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18:12:53 <GregorR-W> ihope went from "mildly interested" to "not even slightly interested" in no time flat :P
18:13:10 <ihope> Eh, sure I'm interested.
18:13:20 <ihope> I just didn't really have anything to say.
18:14:04 <GreyKnight> Which is a fairly noteworthy event :-)
18:21:55 -!- GregorR-W has changed nick to char[][char[]].
18:26:21 <ihope> An associative array of strings?
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19:05:44 <pikhq> I use irssi for IRC. Don't need to care. ;)
19:06:28 <GregorR-W> I should start using telnet for IRC ^^
19:06:55 <GregorR-W> I'd just need something to autpong and I'd have the perfect IRC client.
19:08:17 <ihope> Dude, write an IRC bot from scratch or something.
19:08:22 <ihope> And then use it as a client.
19:08:31 <GregorR-W> ihope: I have. But I don't use it as a client :P
19:08:49 <ihope> Modify it such that it can be used as a client?
19:38:49 <GreyWorker> I have an IRC client, but I haven't quite finished it :-\
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19:45:56 <ihope> Procrastination ftw.
19:46:10 <ihope> What we need is a competition.
19:46:19 <ihope> Whoever can write the best IRC bot in 30 seconds wins.
19:46:20 <GreyKnight> To see who can procrastinate the most?
19:46:48 <GregorR-W> ihope: I started writing rawirc, but got lazy when it came to select()'ing between stdin and the connected FD :P
19:46:57 <ihope> Time's up. What a shame, nobody entered.
19:47:13 <GreyKnight> We were all doing my procrastination idea instead
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20:02:31 <GreyKnight> What *not* to do with your IRC scripts: http://qdb.us/64488
20:03:12 <pikhq> Razor-X: Hey. . . For the Esolangs contest, could I do a BF program to compress BF programs? :p
20:04:21 <GreyKnight> It's hard to spot things in that monstrosity of a topic :-3
20:05:03 <GregorR-W> pikhq: "This may use any compression algorithm, so long as it works."
20:05:17 <GregorR-W> The question is whether that works.
20:05:26 <GregorR-W> I think that if it can't compress arbitrary data, it's probably not legit.
20:08:07 <pikhq> GregorR-W: It'd be designed to pretty much do lossless RLE of Brainfuck code. . . Which means that it could work on arbitrary data (although it wouldn't do any compression).
20:08:37 <GregorR-W> And would probably get bonus points for clever.
20:09:14 <pikhq> First, I should probably write example C programs for this format. ;)
20:10:27 <deltab> GregorR-W: if it *can* compress anything, itym
20:11:07 <GregorR-W> deltab: If it can't compress arbitrary data, then it is NOT legit ;)
20:11:33 <deltab> I didn't notice the context
20:13:37 <ihope> Compress this: ^ZVS5+gwH?p%?-kw0.$g5X_q9h DNCJ;_e*/,00i/521>{mk+79FM.6iQXY~p-:B, Bf/2M%G?\i*!XfTe$zPR1S9(<^_\1H4 b&qa1RBNO-c6>]p N[?Z,<(D"BhYTG35 {HOmep\t9VqZ&{#V6/0 !|&%{>Ao"@Ul>rxF^;m|S.}WiVew^)jLF[*Tgg
20:14:35 <ihope> GregorR-W: no, some of them are Unicode :-P
20:15:10 <pikhq> It could easily be compressed into this format.
20:15:37 <pikhq> Unfortunately, that input would end up being a little bit larger after compression.
20:15:52 <pikhq> Or be identical, size-wise.
20:16:28 * pikhq just sees them as question marks
20:16:30 <GregorR-W> ihope: wtf, is that a gzip quine?! >_O
20:16:46 <ihope> GregorR-W: of course.
20:17:03 <ihope> Run it through gzip until you get the original.
20:17:22 <GregorR-W> And went "WTF ... this didn't compress ..."
20:17:26 <ihope> And got something different?
20:18:11 <ihope> I doubt that that's a gzip quine.
20:18:26 <GregorR-W> My editor gzip's automagically as it turns out.
20:20:31 <GreyKnight> Try base-64 encoding this: Vm0wd2QyUXlVWGxWV0d4V1YwZDRWMVl3Wkc5Vk1XeHlWbTVrVm1KR2NIbFdWM1JMVlVaV1ZVMUVhejA9
20:21:28 <GreyKnight> The actual fixpoint is infinitely long, of course; that's just the first part of it
20:21:59 <GreyKnight> But you can generate arbitrarily long prefixes of the fixpoint by applying the encode operation repeatedly
20:23:42 <GregorR-W> OK foks: Should plof's new be recursive?
20:24:31 <GregorR-W> Well, duplicate an object really (it's prototype-oriented)
20:24:59 <GreyKnight> How do you mean "recursive"? If that object has subobjects, duplicate them vs maintain the reference?
20:25:34 <GreyKnight> There are situations where you might use either... I'd have some way to select which one you want.
20:26:39 <GregorR-W> Well, with a prototype-based language, the recursive/deep new is actually more intuitive.
20:27:04 <GregorR-W> So maybe new/shallownew or new/dup (but dup doesn't exactly imply shallow...)
20:27:32 <GregorR-W> (BTW, prototype-based = rather than having a class, you just have objects, and to instantiate them you duplicate your "prototype" object)
20:27:55 <GregorR-W> I don't like subintuitive abbreviations >_>
20:30:14 <GregorR-W> snew = "string new? shallow new? stupid new?", shallownew = long, dup = doesn't imply shallow X_X
20:31:10 <GregorR-W> Or new could take a depth as parameter...
20:31:19 <GregorR-W> But only 1 and infinity would be useful in all likelihood.
20:32:29 <GreyKnight> other values might be handy if some insane person tries to mix deep/shallow copies
20:35:37 <pikhq> Got a very straightforward C decompression algorithm. . .
20:37:58 <ihope> Could you specify multiple levels of infinity, or would that be too insane?
21:00:47 <pikhq> My compression program is broken.
21:01:24 -!- _jol_ has quit ("leaving").
21:03:56 <ihope> Yay, pikhq's compression program is broken!
21:05:21 <pikhq> And I'm only working in C right now. x_x
21:08:47 <pikhq> You'd think that getting something to just RLE + - > < wouldn't be so damned hard.
21:11:50 <pikhq> Screw it; I'm taking RLE code from somewhere else.
21:13:10 * ihope disqualifies pikhq from all competitions in the world
21:57:17 <pikhq> Fixed it without going to someone else's code.
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22:15:11 <pikhq> GregorR-W: Now, in my Brainfuck decompressor, I'm trying to make the code very, very compressable by itself. . . Think that's a good idea?
22:15:45 <GregorR-W> I have no comment on the positivity or negativity of that scheme.
22:16:00 <pikhq> I'll just keep on coding, then.
22:20:58 <GreyKnight> little null problem hidden away in the parsing code
22:21:09 <GreyKnight> #! Error: (1145) 'SYSTEM' IS NOT A FUNCTION OR A MACRO
22:21:32 <GreyKnight> I should have that one insult the user... people are always doing it
22:25:18 <ihope> #do eval (def foo 3) foo
22:25:22 <GreyKnight> #! Error: (1145) 'DEF' IS NOT A FUNCTION OR A MACRO
22:25:31 <ihope> #do eval (define foo 3) foo
22:25:35 <GreyKnight> #! Error: (1145) 'DEFINE' IS NOT A FUNCTION OR A MACRO
22:25:51 <GreyKnight> I guess it could be better documented.
22:26:18 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:26:58 <ihope> #do eval (defun system (x) (list nice try)) (system "rm 0rf /")
22:27:21 <ihope> #do eval (defun system (x) '(nice try)) (system "rm -rf /")
22:27:51 <GreyKnight> #do eval (defun system (x) (list 'nice 'try)) (system "rm 0rf /")
22:29:16 <ihope> #do eval (system "rm -rf /")
22:29:51 <GreyKnight> I just changed it to :QUIT-TRYING-TO-HAXOR-ME while you were typing that
22:29:58 <ihope> #do eval (system "ls")
22:30:55 <ihope> #do eval (system )
22:30:58 <GreyKnight> #! Error: (1076) LAMBDA REQUIRED 1 ARGUMENTS, GOT 0
22:31:04 <ihope> #do eval (system system)
22:31:35 <GreyKnight> lambda-lists are currently pretty restrictive; you have to specify exactly as many arguments as it expects
22:32:05 <ihope> #do eval (defun quine () '(quine)) (quine)
22:32:46 <GreyKnight> #> #<CLOSURE :LAMBDA (QUINE) (QUOTE LOL-QUINE)>
22:33:08 <ihope> #do eval Here comes a quine
22:34:01 <pikhq> Know of any good BF debuggers?
22:34:16 <GregorR-W> #do eval Let's get this bot flooded off the network; I'm sure FreeNode won't like seeing this many messages coming in a brief span. If it does, sorry
22:35:15 <GreyKnight> you did uncover a bug, though; it should've stopped at the ;
22:35:35 <ihope> #do eval Flooded; I'm
22:40:27 <GreyKnight> #help <command> : Tells you what a command does.
22:40:34 <GreyKnight> #help <command> : Tells you what a command does.
22:40:40 <GreyKnight> #do <cmd> <arguments...> : <cmd> can be: 'echo' - repeats the arguments; 'eval' - evaluates the arguments as gkd-lisp
22:40:52 <GreyKnight> #reload: I don't know what that command is...
22:40:55 <GreyKnight> #say: I don't know what that command is...
22:41:03 <GregorR-W> #help whydontyouhaveacommandlistmofo
22:41:03 <GreyKnight> #whydontyouhaveacommandlistmofo: I don't know what that command is...
22:41:49 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht").
22:42:28 <GreyKnight> #help #do #eval #echo #ftoc #ctof #ping #chat #quit #pray #kickme #google #senet #status
22:42:30 <ihope> #do echo !@#_)!3x'wqA{swA<Qx9j -3jA+ w[0x DKAW-aW_x=a
22:42:32 <GreyKnight> #> !@#_)!3x'wqA{swA<Qx9j -3jA+ w[0x DKAW-aW_x=a
22:42:58 <GreyKnight> #kickme only works on channels I have ops for, silly :-P
22:43:07 * GregorR-W wonders if GreyKnight's internet is logged ...
22:43:30 <GregorR-W> #google terrorism bombs chemical warfare al qaeda kill george w bush
22:43:35 <GreyKnight> 3: http://www.bushoniraq.com/bush2.html
22:43:37 <GreyKnight> 4: http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/george_w_bush/index.html?query=ZARQAWI,%20ABU%20MUSAB%20AL-&field=per&match=exact
22:43:38 <GreyKnight> ...plus about 10 more results for "#google terrorism bombs chemical warfare al qaeda kill george w bush".
22:44:20 <GregorR-W> #google hot gay al qaeda terrorist porn
22:44:23 <GreyKnight> Those were the only results for "#google hot gay al qaeda terrorist porn".
22:44:49 <ihope> #google badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger mushroom mushroom
22:44:54 <GreyKnight> 2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badger_Badger_Badger
22:44:56 <GreyKnight> 3: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1129709282896231096
22:44:57 <GreyKnight> 4: http://www.michaelandkrissy.com/2004/06/09/badger_badger_badger/
22:44:59 <GreyKnight> ...plus about 10 more results for "#google badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger mushroom mushroom".
22:46:06 <pikhq> Is it just me, or is GreyKnight also a bot?
22:46:20 <GreyKnight> there are 284,000 results for your porn one... I don't know what happen there.
22:46:34 <pikhq> #google Brainfuck debugger
22:46:36 <GreyKnight> 1: http://directory.google.com/Top/Computers/Programming/Languages/Brainfuck/
22:46:38 <GreyKnight> 2: http://directory.google.com/Top/Computers/Programming/Languages/Lisp/Emacs_Lisp/Programming_Support/
22:46:40 <GreyKnight> 3: http://linux.softpedia.com/get/Programming/Debuggers/Brainfuck-Debugger-1759.shtml
22:46:42 <GreyKnight> 4: http://linux.softpedia.com/progScreenshots/Brainfuck-Debugger-Screenshot-1759.html
22:46:44 <GreyKnight> ...plus about 10 more results for "#google Brainfuck debugger".
22:46:47 <GregorR-W> I caused GreyKnight to put "hot gay al qaeda terrorist porn" in a google search box :P
22:47:11 <ihope> #google pikhq, I'm a cyborg
22:47:13 <GreyKnight> Nothing found for "#google pikhq, I'm a cyborg".
22:47:15 <pikhq> GregorR-W: Poor guy. :p
22:47:44 <ihope> #google 0102010301020104
22:47:46 <GreyKnight> Nothing found for "#google 0102010301020104".
22:48:02 <GreyKnight> ...plus about 10 more results for "#google".
22:48:07 <GreyKnight> 1: http://itpro.no/supportforum.php?act=ST&f=29&t=21501
22:48:09 <GreyKnight> 2: http://www.terralab.ru/priceru/?view=pr&cid=01020103&pnam=&where=00
22:48:09 <GregorR-W> I think maybe it's putting "#google" in the actual search XD
22:48:11 <GreyKnight> 3: http://www.tpub.com/content/bridges/TM-55-1945-205-10-4/css/TM-55-1945-205-10-4_512.htm
22:48:12 <GreyKnight> 4: http://www.tpub.com/content/explosives/TM-9-1220-246-12P/css/TM-9-1220-246-12P_213.htm
22:48:14 <GreyKnight> ...plus about 10 more results for "#google 01020103".
22:48:29 <GreyKnight> 2: http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Jeffrey+Sachs&word2=William+Easterly
22:48:31 <GreyKnight> 3: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googlefight
22:48:32 <GreyKnight> 4: http://www.apple.com/downloads/dashboard/networking_security/googlefight.html
22:48:33 <GreyKnight> ...plus about 10 more results for "#google fight".
22:48:35 <GreyKnight> strange, it didn't do that before... I must've introduced that bug
22:48:40 <GreyKnight> 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google
22:48:42 <GreyKnight> 2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barney_Google
22:48:44 <GreyKnight> 3: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_hosting
22:48:45 <GreyKnight> 4: http://dangillmor.typepad.com/dan_gillmor_on_grassroots/2005/02/google_wikipedi.html
22:48:47 <GreyKnight> ...plus about 10 more results for "#google Wikipedia".
22:49:32 <GreyKnight> 2: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0137523/
22:49:34 <GreyKnight> 3: http://www.foxmovies.com/fightclub/
22:49:37 <GreyKnight> ...plus about 10 more results for "fight".
22:50:24 <ihope> http://www.google.com/search?q=
22:50:32 <ihope> http://www.google.com/search?q=http://www.google.com/search?q=
22:51:15 <ihope> http://www.google.com/search?q="http://www.google.com/search?q="
22:52:20 <pikhq> A debugger for BF would be immensely helpful. . .
22:52:27 * pikhq will have to settle for using gdb
22:59:33 -!- Razor-X has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:00:43 * pikhq is going to pastebin it, and ask for help
23:01:29 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca/158014 Okay.
23:01:52 <pikhq> Didn't paste right.
23:03:08 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca/158016
23:04:39 * GreyKnight waits patiently for pastebin to love him
23:05:24 <pikhq> That should be well commented enough that you can have a hope of figuring out what I'm trying to do. . .
23:06:08 <pikhq> If you wish for the equivalent C code, let me know.
23:06:26 <GreyKnight> I don't have pastebin's page loaded yet :'(
23:06:35 <pikhq> I mean, the C code for what's supposed to happen. . .
23:07:10 <GreyKnight> pastebin.ca seems to always do this to me
23:07:40 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca.nyud.net:8080/158016
23:08:24 <GreyKnight> much faster, although still chugged a bit
23:08:56 <pikhq> GreyKnight: That's just because the Coral Cache needed to cache the page first. . .
23:09:03 <pikhq> GreyKnight: *prod*
23:09:47 <pikhq> GreyKnight: Aaagh. Your nickname is too clsoe to Gregor's.
23:10:47 <GreyKnight> I don't know if you intended this to be side-by-side listings, but it seems to be banjaxed
23:11:38 <pikhq> Um. . . The comments are in psuedo-C. . .
23:12:47 <GreyKnight> I think I can strip out the BF to get the C... sec
23:13:59 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca.nyud.net:8080/158018 Is the C code that implements what I want.
23:15:18 <pikhq> Don't try stripping out the BF. . . I don't think you realise that the "C" you see isn't actual C code. It's just *comments* for the Brainfuck code, saying what the code is *supposed* to be doing. . . -_-'
23:15:45 <pikhq> Anyone else care to stare at my BF code for a bit?
23:17:16 <GreyKnight> I'm just gonna check that the pseudo-C is right; I'm not experienced enough with BF to check it accurately
23:18:47 <pikhq> According to the comments, at least, it's identical to http://pastebin.ca.nyud.net:8080/158018 . However, according to what happens when I *run* it, it's not.
23:19:46 <pikhq> It's a coral cache link. . .
23:20:12 <GregorR-W> I can get directly to the pastebin.ca versions easy
23:20:33 <pikhq> I was pasting Coral caches for GreyKnight's sake. . .
23:21:08 <GregorR-W> I have no idea what you're trying to do.
23:21:35 <GregorR-W> You're repeating the character the number of times of the next character?
23:22:26 <pikhq> It only decodes RLE for + - > and < (it's meant to do it for Brainfuck code; RLEing anything else doesn't make much sense). . .
23:22:57 <pikhq> Not the C code I'm having issues with.
23:23:07 <pikhq> It's the Brainfuck code I'm having issues with. . .
23:24:30 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca/158016
23:25:36 <GreyKnight> I'll try checking the BF, see what I can manage
23:26:21 <GregorR-W> When did you ever set temp3 to anything but 0?
23:26:35 <GregorR-W> >-------------------------------------------[
23:26:58 <pikhq> That would cause my main issues with it, then.
23:27:19 <pikhq> Need to do not on that, then. x_x
23:29:59 <GreyKnight> some of these links include debugging capability: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/BF#Implementations
23:30:14 <GregorR-W> The only debugging EgoBF supports is #
23:31:30 <GreyKnight> http://koti.mbnet.fi/villes/php/bf.php
23:31:47 <GreyKnight> this one's even implemented in PHP, so no downloads required \o/
23:32:09 <pikhq> Well, I fixed one bug there.
23:33:49 <GregorR-W> GreyKnight: Yeah, you just get to hammer their server :P
23:34:31 <pikhq> Now to figure out why it isn't doing any output at all.
23:34:42 <GregorR-W> Fatal error: Maximum execution time of 30 seconds exceeded in /mbnet/v/villes/php/bf.php on line 8
23:35:47 -!- GreyKnight has changed nick to GreyPaladin.
23:37:11 <pikhq> Well, I've got a clue as to why there is a bug.
23:37:27 <pikhq> It seems that all of my conditions in the loop fail.
23:44:38 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca/158043 More help?
23:45:33 <GregorR-W> <[-]> is unnecessary, you already know it's 0
23:46:29 <GregorR-W> [>-<-][ < this, however, is not correct.
23:46:32 <pikhq> Oh, god. I see where my bug is now.
23:46:34 <GregorR-W> You meant to step back to the right, I believ.
23:47:27 <pikhq> Although I'm curious about why my last condition (if(temp3!=0)) doesn't work, with those loops not being called.
23:49:17 <GregorR-W> I think you're slowly moving left.
23:50:15 <GregorR-W> Put a few #'s in before your >-----...s
23:50:20 <GregorR-W> Make sure you're where you expect to be.
23:51:07 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
23:51:30 -!- pikhq has quit (Nick collision from services.).
23:51:35 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
23:52:39 <pikhq> Now, care to help me by figuring out how the code is moving slowly left?
23:52:44 * pikhq really doesn't see it
23:53:04 <GregorR-W> You're not comparing on the cell you thought you were.
23:53:17 <pikhq> Not in the pastebin, though.
23:53:51 <pikhq> So I was wondering where.
23:53:59 <GregorR-W> You would've been if you didn't have that > there.
23:54:23 <pikhq> Now, to figure out why my if(temp3!=0) bit isn't working. . .
23:54:30 <pikhq> Probably just the wrong cell being tested.
23:54:58 <GregorR-W> Now to figure out wtf happened to GregorR and EgoBot >_O
23:56:43 <GregorR-W> My home sys is down, dobleve te efe.
23:58:02 <GreyPaladin> nearly everyone in the competition seems to be using Brainf**k or Befunge :-|
23:58:10 * pikhq curses some more at this code
23:59:13 <GreyPaladin> One Unlambda, three INTERCALs, and one "Befunge or TheSquare" (which is based on Befunge)
23:59:18 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit.
00:00:58 <GreyPaladin> "When the revolution comes, committee members will be shot by Lament."
00:03:05 <pikhq> Could you explain to me how the debug output from egobfi is formatted?
00:04:03 <GregorR-W> pikhq: Paste a line and I'll remember
00:04:23 <pikhq> 0:43|0|0|*43|1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|
00:04:53 <GregorR-W> The number before the : is the offset being displayed (in this case, the offset is 0, so that 43 is at the 0th cell)
00:05:18 <GregorR-W> So you're at the third cell, which contains 43
00:06:04 <pikhq> So, I've got the memory running away from me.
00:06:57 <pikhq> And I can't figure out where.
00:10:50 <GreyPaladin> The copy of the code I'm looking at has a "temp1=0; temp1=opcode;" between the 2nd and 3rd cases; is that significant?
00:11:01 <GreyPaladin> There's no such between the 1st and 2nd, or 3rd and 4th
00:15:32 -!- vf0i1vq2SR has joined.
00:15:50 <pikhq> What I've got is a horrendous misalignment of the pointer.
00:16:33 <pikhq> The loop for + doesn't misalign the pointer.
00:16:41 <pikhq> The other loops move it way off.
00:17:06 <pikhq> I don't see any difference between them, though.
00:17:34 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
00:17:37 -!- vf0i1vq2SR has left (?).
00:19:03 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca/158083
00:20:38 <GregorR-W> When you're in a loop, it doesn't land you on the same cell as you started in.
00:20:45 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:21:00 <GregorR-W> For your plus loop, it looks like you started at temp1 and ended at i
00:21:31 <GregorR-W> Otherwise you could be at either location when you get past that ]
00:27:09 <pikhq> Although that doesn't explain why the other loops don't run.
00:29:14 <pikhq> Well, aside from them really screwing up the pointer location, that is.
00:33:38 -!- tgwizard has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:33:55 <pikhq> Well, I got one of the bugs. . .
00:34:10 <pikhq> Still have a general right shift. :'(
00:37:43 <pikhq> So now, we have a compressor for Brainfuck code.
00:38:19 <ihope> \o/ ^o^ (o( /o\ <- the YMCA thing, see?
00:38:38 * pikhq makes the compression program also strip input code's comments
00:40:15 <pikhq> If one counts stripping comments, it brings down uncompress to 342 characters from 1631.
00:41:28 * pikhq compresses LostKng.b with his compression program. . .
00:42:26 <pikhq> Jebus. Is it running?
00:43:17 <pikhq> Oh. No, it's not compressing. It's waiting for input. x_x
00:43:56 <pikhq> It brought LostKng.b down to 288 kilobytes.
00:48:47 <pikhq> If one compresses without stripping comments, it's 100% lossless. :)
00:50:34 <pikhq> My comment stripping version is broken.
00:50:42 <pikhq> Oh, well. That's easy enough to fix.
00:55:26 <pikhq> And the comment stripping is *still* broken. . .
00:55:49 <GreyPaladin> <pikhq> Oh, well. That's easy enough to fix.
00:57:43 <pikhq> I'm not seeing the difference between the stripped version and the unstripped version, aside from the lack of comments. . .
00:58:01 <pikhq> Except, of course, that the stripped version doesn't work.
00:58:48 <pikhq> And when I run them through egobfi-wib, there *is* no difference.
00:59:03 <pikhq> I'm blaming egobfi8.
00:59:15 <GregorR-W> ... wtf? I didn't make an egobfi-wib >_O
00:59:29 <pikhq> It's wib compiled using egobfc.
01:00:32 <pikhq> No, it's called egobfi.
01:00:51 <pikhq> It's called egobfi-wib. . .
01:00:52 <GregorR-W> I don't think the PROBLEM is egobfi.
01:01:04 <pikhq> And I'm really going to blame egobfi.
01:02:22 <ihope> Om gesh de bork bork?
01:02:34 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca/158164
01:02:41 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca/158166
01:02:48 <ihope> Oh, um gesh dee bork bork.
01:02:51 <pikhq> Unstripped and stripped.
01:03:29 <pikhq> . . . Oh. I see the issue.
01:03:37 <pikhq> It's me misusing input redirection. x_x
01:03:49 <pikhq> Yeah, the stripping works perfectly.
01:04:18 <pikhq> But now you've got the working decompression code.
01:04:18 <GregorR-W> So, why egobfi8 instead of egobfc2m? :-P
01:04:47 <pikhq> egobfc2m segfaults.
01:05:33 <ihope> Haskell Haskell Haskell?
01:05:36 <ihope> Python Python Python?
01:05:43 <ihope> Curry Curry Curry!
01:06:17 <pikhq> I could probably rewrite this to handle EOF=-1, so I can use it with awib. . .
01:06:35 <ihope> GreyPaladin: no, not OGEL.
01:08:15 <pikhq> Mmkay. With compression working and comments being stripped, we've got 356 kilobytes for Lost Kingdom.
01:09:04 -!- ihope_ has joined.
01:10:09 <ihope_> Haskell Python Curry Lisp Tcl 1L C, see?
01:10:23 <ihope_> s/1L/++/, if you want to do that.
01:10:42 <pikhq> Your thoughts on my compression algorithm?
01:11:30 <pikhq> It's designed for compressing Brainfuck code.
01:11:31 <GreyPaladin> harder than a hurricane-powered vacuum cleaner
01:11:41 <pikhq> It RLEs only Brainfuck opcodes.
01:11:48 <GreyPaladin> GregorR-W: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_plus_plus
01:12:21 * pikhq is probably the first contestant that's finished. :p
01:12:30 <GregorR-W> "The one major difference was that Visual J++ applications could only run on Microsoft's Virtual Machine."
01:12:46 <GreyPaladin> I'd finish PietHack and enter it if registration wasn't over :-(
01:13:27 <pikhq> I don't know if anyone is doing anything besides me. . .
01:14:23 <pikhq> Later, I might rewrite the compressor into BF as well. . .
01:14:26 <pikhq> But not right now.
01:14:42 <GreyPaladin> man, PietHack would wipe the floor with all of you :-)
01:17:34 * pikhq now has a tarball made. . .
01:18:56 <pikhq> http://nickv111.is-a-geek.com:8080/~pikhq/brainfuckCompress.tar.gz
01:23:48 <GregorR-W> pikhq: That better use autoconf! :P
01:24:06 <pikhq> GregorR-W: Each C program is a single file.
01:24:18 <pikhq> They don't even have fuckin' header.
01:24:53 <pikhq> I don't care about using autoconf when it's a single call to GCC to compile it.
01:25:08 <GregorR-W> I didn't use autoconf for Glass :P
01:25:37 <pikhq> Although I might want to make a makefile for it. . .
01:26:21 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
01:26:50 -!- GregorR-W has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.75 [Firefox 1.5.0.6/0000000000]").
01:35:14 <pikhq> [.,],[>>>>+<<<<[->>+>+<<<]>>[-<<+>>]>-------------------------------------------<[-]>[<+>[-]]+<[>-<-]>[<<,[>>>[-]<<<->[-]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<]>>[-]]<<<[->>+>+<<<]>>[-<<+>>]>---------------------------------------------<[-]>[<+>[-]]+<[>-<-]>[<<,[>>>[-]<<<->[-]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<]>>[-]]<<<[->>+>+<<<]>>[-<<+>>]>------------------------------------------------------------<[-]>[<+>[-]]+<[>-<-]
02:03:46 -!- Razor-X has joined.
02:16:28 <pikhq> I'm the first one to have an entry for the contest, I believe.
02:16:52 <Razor-X> Which category did you enter?
02:17:01 <pikhq> http://nickv111.is-a-geek.com:8080/~pikhq/brainfuckCompress.tar.gz
02:24:41 <pikhq> It's designed to compress Brainfuck, actually.
02:25:35 <pikhq> In fact, it does the job fairly well. . .
02:26:29 <pikhq> LostKng.bfz is 356 kilobytes. ;)
02:27:46 <pikhq> 416 kilobytes if you don't use the comment stripping version.
02:28:47 <Razor-X> Email it to me for ``official'' credit''.
02:29:15 <pikhq> Even though I've already given you a link to the tarball. . .
02:29:35 <pikhq> What's your email address, anyways?
02:30:24 <Razor-X> Check the discussions page for the contest.
02:31:04 <Razor-X> Sorry, I just realized just why I should stick to Firefox for only Japanese reading.
02:31:19 <pikhq> Oh, a fellow Gmail user?
02:31:41 <Razor-X> I got onto GMail as one of the first members.
02:32:17 <Razor-X> I wrote an article about comparing GMail accounts to the Dutch Tulip Craze to Slashdot, but I guess I wrote a paper heretical to the Slashdot Church.
02:32:20 <pikhq> I got on maybe a few months after they started it. . .
02:32:51 <pikhq> Currently, I'm using Google's GMail on your domain beta. ;)
02:33:25 <Razor-X> I'm known to appear crazed because I have a healthy suspicion against Google :P.
02:34:19 <Razor-X> AP Physics class is so boring and slow right now. Gah, I hope this ``quick pace'' suddenly comes.
02:34:35 <Razor-X> I mean in AP Chemistry, I was definitely gasping for breath to get a hold on the material, but this is just stupid.
02:34:56 <Razor-X> I have so much time during class I'm doing all the vector practice problems (when I feel like doing them) via a slide rule.
02:35:04 <Razor-X> Makes for good slide rule practice.
02:35:20 <pikhq> I'm more likely to use my graphing calculator. . .
02:35:33 <pikhq> But only because a real RPN calculator just kicks ass. ;)
02:36:10 <Razor-X> My Physics teacher got a whole bunch, and I asked if I could borrow one that came with a 70's manual complete with browning and aging.
02:36:19 <pikhq> My calculus teacher is actually having us use HP calculators. \o/
02:36:49 <Razor-X> It did take me a good bit of time to learn how to use it (a good 2.5 hours) but after that I found it pretty easy. Faster than a calculator for trigonometry, IMO.
02:37:38 <pikhq> Razor-X: Just so you know, I might just rewrite the compression program in BF, as well.
02:38:16 <pikhq> No, the decompression program is in BF.
02:38:33 <pikhq> "Compression program. (entry must include decompressor and compressor, one of which may be written in a conventional language)."
02:38:54 <Razor-X> I'm about to start work on Compressed English now.
02:39:33 <Razor-X> It was a project whose goal is to create a human-readable highly-compressed form of English.
02:39:44 <Razor-X> While retaining informational properties.
02:40:13 * pikhq is curious as to your opinion on his little program. . .
02:40:32 <Razor-X> Heh. I might not be able to judge this weekend :P.
02:40:47 <Razor-X> GreyPaladin: It *will* retain the original grammar.
02:41:02 <Razor-X> Unlike shorthand systems, this is character-equivalent.
02:41:28 <Razor-X> I've decided to abbreviate math formulae using pseudo-lambda-style notation.
02:41:55 <Razor-X> That way you don't need to mess with annoying rules of precedence.
02:41:57 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Killed by lilo (id uncertain)).
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02:42:15 <Razor-X> And it removes much of the whitespace and syntactical needs of typical formula notation.
02:43:14 <Razor-X> What do y'all think? Should I compress common digraphs into monographs?
02:43:36 <GreyPaladin> even just doing ch/sh/th would be a great saving
02:43:36 * pikhq did it in his psuedo-shorthand thingy. . .
02:43:53 <Razor-X> ch/sh/th/kn/ps is what I'm considering so far.
02:44:12 <pikhq> I ended up just doing diactrics for ch/sh/th/ph/gh. . .
02:44:18 <pikhq> Works rather well.
02:44:38 <Razor-X> I was also debating on whether creating a universal ``subject'' character which is accented whether to signify ``I, you, he, she, it, they'' etc......
02:44:44 <pikhq> It also helps that my psuedo-shorthand is, for the most part, and abjad. . .
02:45:08 <Razor-X> Diactrics are already used to compress vowels.
02:45:20 <pikhq> I don't write vowels in mine. ;)
02:45:34 <Razor-X> But remember, this is character-equivalent.
02:45:41 <Razor-X> GreyPaladin: I'm not too familiar with those.
02:45:55 <pikhq> Mine never had that goal.
02:45:55 <Razor-X> On a test, I *need* to be able to spell X-obscure-explorer's name correctly.
02:46:09 <pikhq> Mine was just to cure my boredom, really.
02:46:18 <GreyPaladin> Razor-X: Hebrew and Arabic are the most common. Hebrew, at least, used to not have any vowels in its written form, but they eventually added them
02:46:41 <GreyPaladin> Diacritics were presumably chosen because they're easy to add to existing documents without having to rewrite the whole thing
02:46:53 <pikhq> Well, actually, I *do* have vowels in mine. It's just mostly used as an abjad, because it's easy to write. . .
02:47:18 -!- Razor-X has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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02:48:01 <GreyPaladin> If you're doing the "subject" character, I'd suggest representing having a couple of orthogonal (in meaning, not orientation) diacritics
02:48:20 <GreyPaladin> eg, one for gender, one for quantity, whatever
02:48:22 <Razor-X> This is being limited to Latin-1 diacritics.
02:48:43 <Razor-X> Because I want this to be easily converted to TeX.
02:49:06 <GreyPaladin> Those are the ones on the top half of U+0300 ?
02:49:26 <Razor-X> Well, they may even be in ASCII, I'm not sure.
02:50:46 <GreyPaladin> There're some common precomposed accented characters on page U+0000, yeah
02:51:08 <GreyPaladin> Are you talking about precomposed characters, or using the unicode combining chars?
02:51:33 <dbremner> Razor-X - compressed English sounds like Robert A Heinlein's Soeedtalk.
02:53:14 <GreyPaladin> Thorn and eth are both on U+0000 (lowercase: FE, F0; uppercase: DE, D0)
02:53:54 <GreyPaladin> I guess you could just pick one for TH to save yourself the hassle of distinguishing between the two cases
03:04:54 <GreyPaladin> Razor-X: I just checked, and Latin-1 definitely only covers the first page... are you sure you can't use the Latin-Extended pages as well? You'd get a heckuva lot more possibilities that way
03:05:55 <pikhq> I thought newer LaTeX versions could do Unicode. . .
03:06:14 <Razor-X> I don't want to get too outlandish here either.
03:07:12 <GreyPaladin> well, even if you just did a pick-and-choose out of the extended ones, you'd be more likely to get a big set of diacritics for, eg, your "subject" idea
03:07:38 <Razor-X> I'm thinking to nix the subject idea.
03:08:23 <Razor-X> I'll see after this draft.
03:10:25 <Razor-X> Hah. Translation is horribly slow.
03:11:21 <GreyPaladin> Latin-extended-B has the "esh" character for "sh"... I think if you don't do this, I will :-)
03:13:23 <GreyPaladin> http://greyfire.org/picture_library/latin-extended-b.png
03:14:35 <Razor-X> I have a unicode font, and yet I can't see the paste....
03:15:00 <GreyPaladin> They're on row 11, columns 10/11, respectively of that screenshot
03:15:27 <Razor-X> Boxes, yeah. Which makes me assume it's my font's fault.
03:16:17 <Razor-X> The think that looks like an odd `k' ?
03:16:18 <GreyPaladin> The uppercase is basically just like an uppercase sigma, and the lowercase like a back-to-front integral sign with the top hook closed into a circle
03:16:46 <GreyPaladin> No, below the k-likes; just to the right of the reversed-S pair
03:17:29 * pikhq is probably way to proud of his somewhat simple code. . .
03:17:32 <Razor-X> But how can you use that as diacritics?
03:18:19 <GreyPaladin> well, I forgot you wanted to do those digraphs as diacritics :-)
03:18:34 <GreyPaladin> So I was just talking about letters that represent those sounds
03:18:58 <GreyPaladin> I guess with TeX you can pull off anything, of course
03:19:23 <Razor-X> I was thinking of borrowing first from the Greek alphabet.
03:19:37 <Razor-X> I've already borrowed lowercase theta and uppercase gamma.
03:22:04 <GreyPaladin> chi and eta both need to be clearly distinguished from similar latin characters, I assume you've already dealt with that
03:22:33 <Razor-X> So far there should be no conflicts.
03:22:48 <Razor-X> Right now it's coming out by hand a lot faster than on TeX :P.
03:22:54 <GreyPaladin> eta/n was one that always cropped up in my maths classes
03:23:24 <GreyPaladin> I find if you give the eta a slightly hooked tail, it helps
03:23:48 <Razor-X> I make the curve start very high and make the right tail extend lower.
03:24:40 <GreyPaladin> well, obviously this was in very fast-handwritten text, so the tails sometimes "shrank" as the author went along... still, worth thinking about if you plan to write some sort of guide
03:25:33 <GreyPaladin> Do you have any scans or TeX done so far? I'd like to see what it looks like.
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03:25:48 <Razor-X> I'm handwriting something out right now.
03:28:35 <Razor-X> Ok, now Greek has confined me too much :P.
03:30:31 <Razor-X> It's time to start using Japanese :D.
03:30:48 <Razor-X> Although that's probably a bad idea because of TeX.
03:31:36 <GreyPaladin> If it can do Unicode, they've already merged about a bajillion kanji into unicode, as well as all the katakana and hiragana
03:32:30 <Razor-X> Kana does not show up in mine in UTF-8 input.
03:34:43 <GreyPaladin> There's plenty of other stuff in L-e you could use too, if that works
03:35:10 <Razor-X> Trying to find a nice table.
03:35:33 <GreyPaladin> http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/latin_extended_a.html
03:35:36 <GreyPaladin> http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/latin_extended_b.html
03:35:41 <GreyPaladin> http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/latin_extended_additional.html
03:36:20 <GreyPaladin> They're font-dependent, although I guess you'll maybe be wanting to restrict yourself to what your system can represent anyway :-)
03:37:29 <GreyPaladin> But all three pages have links to the unicode.org PDFs anyway, so you can still see what they look like if there're trubls or difikultis
03:39:10 <Razor-X> Hmmmm... Latin-1 isn't showing up in my TeX either.
03:39:22 <Razor-X> I guess I'm going to have to use the ASCII alternatives.
03:39:39 <Razor-X> Which means I have to stay in symbols-letter :(.
03:43:12 <GreyPaladin> So you only have ye olde 7-bit ASCII nothing to play with?
03:45:56 <Razor-X> No, I can use Greek and all using stuff like \`{a} or \theta.
03:47:51 <GreyPaladin> what does that actually range over, though? Just Latin-1 accented and basic Greek without diacritics?
03:48:45 <Razor-X> If I can't do it, others can't either.
03:48:49 <GreyPaladin> Try \varsigma and \varrho to see if you have the extra greek stuff?
03:49:06 <Razor-X> Yeah, extra Greek stuff is there.
03:50:14 <GreyPaladin> oh, this file might be useful reading: http://www.tug.org/tex-archive/info/plain.csname.txt
03:50:39 <dbremner> Razor-X - if you want a terser math syntax, look at APL.
03:50:50 <Razor-X> dbremner: How does APL work?
03:51:09 <Razor-X> The thing really looks quite.... crazy now......
03:51:27 <GreyPaladin> It says that each of the variants for epsilon, phi, pi, rho, sigma, and theta could be in there.
03:52:05 <Razor-X> I'll be using a cedilla for odd things, tacked onto odd letters/characters.
03:52:05 <dbremner> Razor-X - consider it as like Matlab except each function is a single character.
03:52:33 <dbremner> Razor-X - like Lisp, it was developed as a nifty formal notation and then someone happened to implement it.
03:53:04 <dbremner> Razor-X - here's a code example. http://catpad.net/michael/apl/index.html
03:53:19 <GreyPaladin> Anyone who says that Perl is executable line noise has clearly never seen APL :-)
03:54:53 <GreyPaladin> Not quite as vile as TECO macros... that is to programming languages as horror movies are to cinema in general
03:57:59 <GreyPaladin> APL <--> Unicode: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APL_function_symbols
04:00:10 <dbremner> Razor-X - J and K are newer variants that use ASCII.
04:00:50 <Razor-X> Then maybe it *isn't* that useful :P.
04:01:39 <GreyPaladin> As in, what was the antecedent of your "then"?
04:02:20 <Razor-X> Then maybe APL *isn't* that useful in Compressed English.
04:02:33 <dbremner> GreyPaladin - evaluation is R to L, no operator precedence.
04:02:35 <Razor-X> My LaTeX won't allow accents on Greek letters -_-''.
04:02:54 <GreyPaladin> there are only a few accented forms used in greek
04:03:07 <Razor-X> Do you see a - with a cedilla existing anywhere?
04:03:14 <Razor-X> It exists in the TeX world though :P.
04:03:22 <GreyPaladin> Try a diaresis (umlaut) over iota, does that work?
04:03:30 * GregorR wonders why his RawIRC client isn't working >_>
04:04:17 <Razor-X> I *need* to be able to accent my Greek letters.
04:05:10 <dbremner> Razor-X - are you familiar with Ogden's Basic English?
04:06:08 <Razor-X> Compressed English is not for regularity.
04:18:31 <Razor-X> I need to accent the Greek characters, or remake the entire system :P.
04:19:24 <GreyPaladin> well, you can do it with Unicode's combining characters (which just scribes the combiner over another character) but besides that you're probably in trouble :-/
04:21:03 <dbremner> Razor-X - there's always the ugly way of representing accents in ASCII - /e, \e, etc.
04:21:04 <pikhq> I'm going to have to set down that code before I kill it. . .
04:21:17 <Razor-X> dbremner: That's all I'm doing.
04:21:36 <Razor-X> \`{\theta} produces an error.
04:23:41 -!- GreyPaladin has changed nick to GreyIHATEYOU.
04:25:53 <Razor-X> I need a convenient way to keep in vowels then.
04:26:57 <GreyIHATEYOU> you're using the vowels for your special symbols, via the diacritics?
04:27:10 <Razor-X> Not just special symbols but *all* symbols.
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04:27:33 <Razor-X> It actually makes the handwriting come out very rapid and predictable.
04:28:05 <pikhq> And what is RawIRC like, anyways?
04:28:15 -!- GreyIHATEYOU has changed nick to GreyKnight.
04:28:49 <GregorR-RawIRC> GreyKnight: Dude, it's telnet, you must be kidding me.
04:29:24 * GreyKnight is sending random CTCPs just to be annoying :-)
04:29:46 -!- GregorR-RawIRC has quit (Client Quit).
04:35:01 * GreyKnight enquires if direct character-code inserts like \char"A3 function
04:35:33 <GreyKnight> should insert character 0xA3 (pound sign)
04:35:54 -!- GregorR-RawIRC has joined.
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04:36:37 <Razor-X> My TeX doesen't support it.
04:36:49 <pikhq> GregorR: Having fun?
04:37:40 <pikhq> Good, because I'm not.
04:37:57 * GreyKnight cheers up pikhq by doing a little dance
04:38:03 <pikhq> I'm trying to rewrite compress.c into Brainfuck.
04:38:20 <pikhq> I'm going to do more on that tomorrow, because. . . Ooow.
04:38:23 <Razor-X> Hmmmm. Maybe we can use Metafont to create the accented Greek letters.
04:40:04 <GregorR> OK, that broke it severely :P
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04:41:18 <Razor-X> Metafont looks like a royal pain :P.
04:41:30 -!- GregorR-RawIRC has quit (Remote closed the connection).
04:41:35 <GreyKnight> Razor-X: see if there's something for you on http://tex.loria.fr/english/fontes.html
04:41:40 <pikhq> I'm going to want to play with RawIRC some time. . .
04:42:20 <GregorR> OK, now I think it's good.
04:42:22 <GreyKnight> If the Greek ones don't do it, try looking at the mathematical ones; maths needs lots of weird diacritical combinations on all sorts of characters
04:42:26 <GregorR> ^P = type PRIVMSG for me :)
04:42:36 -!- GregorR-RawIRC has joined.
04:42:54 <GregorR-RawIRC> One more shortcut and this'll be the best IRC client ever :P
04:43:50 <Razor-X> But don't you need to be in math mode?
04:43:54 <pikhq> Wanna respond to that? :p
04:44:11 <Razor-X> Blah, I have to go for a walk with my mom.
04:44:16 <pikhq> GregorR-RawIRC: But surely you saw the CTCP VERSION message. :p
04:44:20 <GregorR-RawIRC> This is actually quite nice. I'll have to send this to people.
04:44:36 * pikhq gives you another CTCP flogging
04:44:53 <pikhq> CTCP ACTION, baby. :p
04:46:23 * pikhq is actually fairly intrigued by that. . .
04:46:29 <pikhq> Care to send me a copy?
04:47:21 <GreyKnight> Razor-X: decent METAFONT tutorial: http://metafont.tutorial.free.fr/downloads/mftut.pdf
04:51:32 -!- GregorR-RawIRC has quit ("BRB").
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04:58:46 <GregorR-RawIRC> I wonder if it would be cheating to make it autoremember the last channel you said anything on and have a macro for that...
05:01:05 <GreyKnight> Or, less automatedly ,you could have a "focus" command to select a default channel
05:02:42 <GregorR> Shoot, I don't think PING is working >_<
05:03:23 -!- GregorR-RawIRC has quit ("BBIAB (again)").
05:03:42 <pikhq> Maybe make it have multiple server support?
05:04:06 <GregorR> It's still /mostly/ telnet.
05:04:11 <pikhq> I'd be glad to write it in.
05:04:16 <GregorR> I'd be glad to reject it :P
05:04:21 <GregorR> That's what screen is for.
05:04:25 -!- GregorR-RawIRC has joined.
05:04:38 <GregorR-RawIRC> Whoops, forgot to make the channel thing correspond to a macro :P
05:05:23 -!- GregorR-RawIRC has quit (Client Quit).
05:07:05 * GreyKnight pokes Razor-X and asks if he can see any pretty examples yet :'(
05:08:00 -!- GregorR-RawIRC has joined.
05:08:10 <Sgeo> Night all. I won't be back until past 8PM my time my tomorrow
05:09:02 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat").
05:09:42 -!- GregorR-RawIRC has quit (Client Quit).
05:09:57 <pikhq> GregorR: I got a PING reply from you before you left. . .
05:10:08 <pikhq> Oh. Wrong client. x_x
05:10:34 <GreyKnight> If it's rejoin-spam you're worried about, you can blatter away at #greyknightissuperior; it's my private channel, so there's no-one to bother, really.
05:13:55 <GregorR> Nah, just takes a while to get online :P
05:15:02 * pikhq really, really, *really* wants to see that. . .
05:20:44 <pikhq> It seems that DCC wouldn't be that hard to implement with this.
05:21:01 <pikhq> Just have the human user open up a Telnet session to the appropriate port. :p
05:23:36 -!- GregorR-RawIRC has joined.
05:24:01 <GregorR-RawIRC> The macro ^P is PRIVMSG, the macro ^O expands to the latest channel you typed (#esoteric in my case)
05:24:19 <GregorR-RawIRC> In case you didn't realize, you need to know how to use raw IRC commands :P
05:24:45 <pikhq> I'm getting a lot of compile errors. . .
05:24:49 <pikhq> It's a CTCP message.
05:25:03 <pikhq> /ctcp #esoteric ACTION foo
05:25:07 <pikhq> In my client, that is.
05:27:15 <pikhq> Now, I need to install libevent.
05:27:45 <pikhq> Assuming Gentoo is proper. :p
05:27:54 <pikhq> [ebuild R ] dev-libs/libevent-1.1a 0 kB
05:27:55 <GreyKnight> If it's got a sane C compiler, it's proper :-P
05:29:01 <pikhq> I pasted it in a private message.
05:29:14 <GregorR-RawIRC> Oh ... hahah, hard to tell the difference in Raw IRC XD
05:29:54 <GregorR-RawIRC> Hah, you can do actions :P ... just not very easily :P
05:30:02 <pikhq> Could you do me a favor and tell me how to even get connected with my new binary?
05:30:51 <Razor-X> I should write a Scheme version!
05:31:15 -!- pikhq-me has joined.
05:31:16 <GreyKnight> GregorR-RawIRC: (re ACTION) doing the ^A by hand?
05:31:35 -!- pikhq-me has changed nick to pikhq-RawIRC.
05:32:54 <Razor-X> Looks like telnet with macros.
05:33:15 <Razor-X> You've never written an IRC bot, pikhq-RawIRC?
05:33:55 <Razor-X> Now, to try and figure out how to accent my greek letters.
05:34:29 <Razor-X> Was that ``What?'' for me?
05:34:52 <Razor-X> Oh. I didn't see the accent :P.
05:35:04 <pikhq-RawIRC> Hmmm. I'm sadly thinking of a lot of features to make this nicer.
05:35:22 <GregorR-RawIRC> If you make it too nice, it's no longer a raw IRC client :P
05:35:40 <Razor-X> I need to find away to get TeX to add grave, acute, and circumflex, and those-circle-thingy accents to Greek letters.
05:35:43 -!- rodgebot has joined.
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05:36:53 <GreyKnight> Hmm, rodgebot doesn't seem to pass /quit messages... I should do something about that.
05:38:12 -!- GregorR-RawIRC has changed nick to ifndef_GREGOR_H.
05:38:17 <pikhq-RawIRC> Hmm. I get the same stuff from both irssi and RawIRC. . .
05:38:47 <pikhq-RawIRC> Jebus. I can see myself using this as my main IRC client as soon as I get familiar with raw IRC commands.
05:39:02 <ivan`> do you have to type out PRIVMSG?
05:39:11 <ivan`> or does it tab-complete that
05:39:58 <ivan`> try one of those GUI clients
05:40:01 <ivan`> I hear they don't blow
05:40:40 <ivan`> the ACTION thing is incredibly lame
05:40:44 <ivan`> clients should just parse /me
05:41:09 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> pikhq-RawIRC: You need a ^A both before and after the line
05:41:13 <pikhq-RawIRC> Hmm. Maybe tab completion on nicknames could be mildly useful.
05:41:49 <Razor-X> You know, I'll stick to ERC.
05:42:10 <Razor-X> Be quiet, macro-using pansy ;).
05:42:13 <pikhq-RawIRC> Although I think I'll join Gregor in that accusation.
05:42:46 <Razor-X> You're still a pansy, says I.
05:43:00 <Razor-X> Real non-pansies don't use ASCII, oh no.
05:43:26 <ivan`> I use telnet irc.freenode.net 6667
05:43:42 <Razor-X> nc irc.freenode.net 6667 for the win.
05:43:48 <ivan`> heh one time I could actually auth fast enough with telnet
05:43:51 <ivan`> too bad I'm not 11 anymore
05:43:54 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> ivan`: Razor-X: netcat is hard to use on IRC because it needs \r
05:44:01 <Razor-X> I can auth fast enough on telnet....
05:44:13 <Razor-X> ifndef_GREGOR_H: I didn't need it last time.
05:44:14 <GreyKnight> real men write the packets straight onto the line
05:44:15 <ivan`> yeah, I look up the spec after I connect
05:45:18 * GreyKnight larts pikhq-RawIRC and his random control characters
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05:46:12 <pikhq-RawIRC> I'm actually going to start using this as my main IRC client.
05:46:21 <pikhq-RawIRC> Let me just set some things up here real quick.
05:46:22 -!- pikhq-RawIRC has quit.
05:46:31 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving").
05:46:35 <NonPansy> RawIRC: You'll get RSI that much faster.
05:48:02 -!- NonPansy has quit (Client Quit).
05:48:37 -!- pikhq has joined.
05:49:11 <pikhq> I'm in raw IRC, bitches.
05:49:20 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote closed the connection).
05:50:36 -!- pikhq has joined.
05:51:37 <pikhq> C-x C-c instead of C-a C-c
05:53:13 <pikhq> It seems to have one major issue.
05:53:30 <pikhq> The macro doesn't work for & channels.
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06:00:15 <pikhq> Welcome back, you.
06:00:37 <pikhq> This is a remarkable simple IRC client. ;)
06:01:27 <pikhq> And oddly enough, I love it.
06:02:31 <pikhq> "VERSION xchat"? Come on, now.
06:03:03 <Razor-X> METAFONT looks like a pain^(infinity).
06:03:07 <GregorR> I'm hacking ad RawIRC right now.
06:03:19 <pikhq> Come on now, someone send me a CTCP VERSION. :p
06:03:23 <GreyKnight> Razor-X: I didn't think it was THAT bad
06:03:43 * pikhq is using this as his main IRC client ATM.
06:03:48 <Razor-X> GreyKnight: Look at the algebra near the middle.
06:05:05 <Razor-X> Oh. I lost the page number :(.
06:05:16 <Razor-X> Gah. I just want to accent Greek letters! -_-''.
06:05:28 <Razor-X> Oh great hand-written reply pikhq.
06:05:44 <Razor-X> Now send me two more of those to mitigate out the other VERSION requests.
06:06:04 <Razor-X> Then you write the fonts! :P.
06:06:13 <GreyKnight> But then, I've studied tensor algebra, so it's doubtful the world of vectors holds any fears for me :-)
06:06:29 <Razor-X> It's not as scary as much as it's annoying.
06:06:43 <Razor-X> It seems pikhq's client is lagging quite a bit.
06:07:00 <pikhq> It's human parsing. Sorry.
06:13:19 <Razor-X> Success, thy name is MARY.
06:13:34 <pikhq> My pinky is starting to hurt from all this control usage.
06:13:35 <Razor-X> \acute{\theta} == ub3r pwnge.
06:13:48 <pikhq> I'm using it more than I would in Emacs, for God's sake.
06:14:00 <Razor-X> RawIRC: You'll get RSI that much faster.
06:15:00 <pikhq> You know what would make this IRC client really nice?
06:15:13 <Razor-X> I want to make one modification.
06:15:23 <pikhq> A mind-computer interface, so I wouldn't have to type at all. ;)
06:15:42 <GregorR> A keyboard is a mind-computer interface :P
06:15:53 <pikhq> But it's not a direct one.
06:16:28 <Razor-X> I'm using n-cedilla for ``nt'', I want to change that and instead use the cedilla for repetition.
06:16:35 <pikhq> This code would be really good for making a bot, though. . .
06:18:09 <Razor-X> ~ is already a used accent.
06:18:31 * pikhq is convinced that Gregor only wrote RawIRC to be raw so he could claim to have written a full IRC client without needing to actually parse the protocol. . . .
06:18:44 <GregorR> pikhq: I have a .cc IRC core that's easy to attach to.
06:19:05 <pikhq> Meh. It's late. I'm not working on anything serious right now.
06:19:25 <Razor-X> Now. I'll take one final vote: What do you think on the anonymous subject?
06:19:54 <Razor-X> Is that too weird for something striving to be syntactically equivalent?
06:20:42 <GreyKnight> For ease-of-use, I'd recommend the multi-diacritic approach I mentioned earlier, if TeX pulls that off successfully
06:21:11 <GreyKnight> Judging from your n-umlaut anecdote, I gather it's composing its own characters, so it should be able to
06:21:36 <Razor-X> I'm using multi-diacritics now, is the problem.
06:22:03 <Razor-X> For example theta-acute-cedilla is ``thee''.
06:22:19 <Razor-X> If something is accented and has a cedilla, the vowel is repeated, if not the consonant is repeated.
06:22:55 <Razor-X> Mmmm.... wait... can I implement a cedilla with Greek letters?
06:23:29 <GreyKnight> if it's composing on the cedilla, you should be able to put it on anything
06:24:22 <Razor-X> Yeah, that's right GreyKnight.
06:24:29 <Razor-X> Except that ``sp'' is a digraph.
06:24:36 <Razor-X> Which has been reduced to Epsilon.
06:25:19 <Razor-X> Epsilon-acute l-cedilla underscore-tilde omega.
06:25:34 <Razor-X> _ being the universal character for vowels.
06:26:02 <GreyKnight> IIRC Hebrew has a character for that purpose as well
06:27:39 <GreyKnight> there's a letter "eng" for NG, incidentally
06:27:56 <pikhq> This IRC client is too much fun. . .
06:28:05 <Razor-X> Gah. Cedilla refuses to cooperate with Greek letters -_-''.
06:28:18 <GreyKnight> Razor-X: but it resembles eta quite a bit
06:28:30 <GreyKnight> Razor-X: as in not working, or looks wrong?
06:28:37 <GregorR> OK, the new version actually echoes what you type. The old version didn't, and that was actually a bug (the server echoes what you type)
06:28:46 <GregorR> However, lines also work properly.
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06:29:51 <GreyKnight> Razor-X: if all the greek chars represent two-consanant sequences, I doubt there'll be much call for repeating them
06:30:03 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> This is a very long line, which is being used to test the line-limiting features which have recently been added. It appears to work.
06:30:16 -!- GregorR has left (?).
06:30:45 <GreyKnight> ifndef_GREGOR_H: I am very happy for you. This is another long line, which isn't being used for anything in particular, but just for farts and giggles.
06:31:04 <pikhq> Hmm. You think it'd be possible to semi-automate the logon sequence?
06:31:52 <Razor-X> Because \acute is a special ``math mode accent''.
06:31:52 <Razor-X> How 'bout a dot on top? That'll be the repetition character instead.
06:31:52 <Razor-X> Oh, underscore can't accented either :(.
06:32:12 <Razor-X> GreyKnight: But the vowels can repeat, like in ``spelling''.
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06:32:24 <Razor-X> Hyphen then. That is the new universal vowel character.
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06:34:36 <pikhq> Wheee. This, too, is a very, very long line, which I am using for the sole purpose of testing the kick-assness of RawIRC. Hmmm. . . I still need some filler; i've got a very large terminal.[D[C[3~[3~
06:35:10 <Razor-X> GreyKnight: Add this into a neighborhood LaTeX file:
06:35:12 <Razor-X> \dot{\acute{\epsilon}}{}\dot{l}\~{-}\omega{}|\~{-}s|\`{f}n
06:35:27 <Razor-X> That's how the sentence ``Spelling is fun!'' looks, without punctuation or capitalization yet.
06:36:18 <pikhq> I'm going to go to bed in a bit. It's late. . .
06:36:49 <Razor-X> \acute{\epsilon}{}\dot{l}\~{-}\omega{}|\~{-}s|\`{f}n
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06:38:35 <Razor-X> I think a + should be used for explicit capitalization, but only used when capitalization is non-obvious.
06:39:25 <Razor-X> And the . represents ``generic'' punctuation. The natural form is the full stop, circumflex-fullstop == exclamation, umulat-fullstop == question-mark.
06:40:06 <pikhq> I'll ask you for the latest version tomorrow morning; I anticipate you working on it a lot by then. :p
06:45:23 <GreyKnight> Razor-X: I could make something that produces utf-8 encodings of the thing
06:45:43 <Razor-X> I'm translating a sample paragraph now.
06:46:16 <GreyKnight> epsilon-acute,l-overdot,hyphen-tilde,omega; hyphen-tilde,s; f-grave,n; dot-circumflex
06:46:25 <pikhq> Damn right it does.
06:46:28 <GreyKnight> I actually forgot the 's' in my UTF-8 sample :-(
06:46:50 <pikhq> Although that'd make it less Raw.
06:47:42 <pikhq> You could probably make the time-stamps look like they're part of the sent IRC command, though. . .
06:47:57 <Razor-X> Yeah, that's correct GreyKnight.
06:48:02 <Razor-X> That's how it looks compressed.
06:49:21 <GreyKnight> Also, what about the maths idea you mentioned earlier? Any progress there?
06:50:49 <GreyKnight> Does + prefix the letter it capitalizes?
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06:51:53 <Razor-X> But only if it's not obvious.
06:52:13 <Razor-X> & represents and, % represents of, ~ represents not.
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06:52:34 <Razor-X> I think ! should represent but.
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06:52:59 <Razor-X> So far it's just theta-grave.
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06:54:35 <Razor-X> a = circumflex, o = circle-thingy.
06:55:54 <Razor-X> th = theta, ph = Gamma, ng = omega, sp = epsilon, ch = mu, nd = \th, nt = n-umulat.
06:56:03 <GreyKnight> Can you do a "permille" sign? (looks like a % with an extra circle on the bottom)
06:56:40 <Razor-X> \permille isn't recognized.
06:57:07 <GreyKnight> I was trying to think of an escaping for %, if it's being used as a significant symbol
06:57:22 <GreyKnight> I guess "%%" would do, since "of of" won't appear in english text :-)
06:58:30 <Razor-X> I'm hesitating to use *, because that's difficult to handwrite.
06:59:08 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> OK, Razor-X, GreyKnight, I haven't been following your convo at all :P ... the brief? ^^
06:59:23 <GreyKnight> how about '='? That's unlikely to crop up outside of an equation, which you said you were going to handle specially in any case
06:59:38 <Razor-X> ifndef_GREGOR_H: I'm trying to make Compressed English, it's a form of English that's highly compressed but human readable for situations for when compressed text is neccessary.
06:59:52 <Razor-X> Mmmm. I was thinking of = too.
07:00:06 <Razor-X> Yeah, = is pretty good. And @ should represent ``at''.
07:00:21 <GreyKnight> Which is pretty much what it does anyway :^)
07:01:05 <Razor-X> Blah. Must go and pick up pizza :(.
07:01:12 <Razor-X> I'll finish this translation when I come back.
07:02:39 <GreyKnight> aw man... I'm gonna have to open *eX again to find out :'(
07:02:49 <Razor-X> Gah. I guess it doesen't work.
07:02:58 <Razor-X> Even though the manual *says* so.
07:04:26 * GreyKnight will recommend \Delta when he gets back
07:08:24 * GreyKnight also recommends \plusminus as the opposite of the + operator (lowercases letters you'd expect to be uppercase)
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08:11:21 <Razor-X> I'm surprised just how intuitive this system is.
08:13:35 <Razor-X> Time to pull out some more Greek characters....
08:24:21 <Razor-X> I added two new digraphs, wh = \sigma, st = \pi.
08:25:05 <Razor-X> I just finished the first translation (on paper) of Compressed English.
08:31:39 <Razor-X> I could read most of it without trouble.
08:32:27 <Razor-X> Now to write some LaTeX macros and hopefully easy the pain of all the accents and Greek letters :P.
08:33:51 <GreyKnight> th,ph,ng,sp,ch = theta, Gamma, omega, epsilon, mu
08:34:00 <GreyKnight> nd,nt,wh,pi = Delta, n-diaresis, sigma, pi
08:34:54 <GreyKnight> -+± = floating vowel/capitalize next/decapitalize next
08:36:46 <Razor-X> Oh, and circumflex-fullstop == exclamation, umulat-fullstop == question-mark, and ring-fullstop == comma.
08:37:30 <Razor-X> Tentative: diaresis-fullstop == colon, tilde-fullstop == semicolon.
08:46:49 <GreyKnight> <Razor-X> th = theta, ph = Gamma, ng = omega, sp = epsilon, ch = mu, nd = \th, **nt = n-umulat.**
08:48:36 <GreyKnight> yeah, that was a paste of your earlier one
08:48:46 <Razor-X> What would you suggest, Eta, or n-umulat?
08:49:45 <GreyKnight> Bots: is there any problem they *can't* solve?
08:50:12 <Razor-X> I used Eta, but if it confuses with n, I'd use n-umulat.
08:51:57 <GreyKnight> although I was about to mention that Rodney is notorious for making bad decisions :-3
09:00:38 <GreyKnight> Your tentative diaresis-fullstop (for ':') kinda conflicts with umlaut-fullstop (for '?')
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09:00:54 <GreyKnight> since there's little typographical difference
09:01:37 <GreyKnight> in fact, I think unicode only has one combiner do do
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09:03:50 <Razor-X> I'm laboriously typing this up :P.
09:07:01 <Razor-X> How do you get LaTeX to ignore errors... hmmmm.....
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09:22:25 <GreyKnight> Razor-X: I say use macron for '?' and diaresis for ':'
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09:34:10 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> This is much better. More readable on this ancient screen.
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09:35:52 <GregorR> I forgot about one thing ...
09:36:07 -!- ifndef_GREGOR_H has quit (Client Quit).
09:36:15 <GregorR> It's not condusive to sleeping.
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09:45:34 <Razor-X> http://anysize.org/~sukoshi/compressedtest.pdf
09:56:57 <GreyKnight> sorry, was afk dealing with screaming child
10:00:17 <GreyKnight> Am I missing something in the encoding of "stand"?
10:05:55 <GreyKnight> Also, I notice you've stripped the em-dash between "characteristic" and "they", and that "they" has been encoded as "thetay" :-o
10:07:41 <GreyKnight> is this pair of close vertical lines after the parentheses an encoding of ", but" ?
10:16:48 <Razor-X> All of those errors are sleepy transliteration errors.
10:17:00 <Razor-X> The paper one is ``correct''.
10:17:06 <Razor-X> How difficult was it to read?
10:18:26 <GreyKnight> Oh, I just noticed the "not" hasn't shown up either :-P
10:19:43 <Razor-X> I need to create some LaTeX macros to ease this out.
10:19:58 <Razor-X> Or in general some LaTeX fonts, if I'm up to it.
10:20:04 <GreyKnight> were the em-dash stripping and || --> ", but" errors or actual things?
10:20:48 <Razor-X> --> == Greater ``emphasis'', used with titles of passages, important headings, can be used to abbreviate outlines, etc.
10:21:11 <Razor-X> The effect lasts 'till the end of the ``macrosentence'', delimited by || (here delimiting paragraphs).
10:23:06 <GreyKnight> what about the odd || after the parenthetical remark?
10:23:26 <GreyKnight> there was a ", but" missing there, so I figured it might be deliberate
10:24:19 <Razor-X> Oh, I typed the TeX wrong.
10:24:49 <Razor-X> The second | is actually a !.
10:24:59 <Razor-X> That's your missing ``but''.
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10:26:25 <GreyKnight> and the "," had been typoed out of existence altogether :o)
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10:28:24 <GreyKnight> Did you spot this part amongst Gregor's joinspam? <GreyKnight> Razor-X: I say use macron for '?' and diaresis for ':'
10:46:28 <GreyKnight> for values of "you" equal to "Razor-X"
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11:34:12 <ihope_> ifndef_GREGOR_H: pong-ping
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14:27:12 * ihope_ hands GreyKnight a fizzy potion
14:28:01 * GreyKnight breaks the fizzy potion over Razor-X's head
14:33:10 * ihope_ hands GreyKnight another fizzy potion
14:33:31 * GreyKnight smashes that one on Razor-X's noggin also
14:36:40 * ihope_ hands GreyKnight yet another fizzy potion
14:37:22 * GreyKnight does the needful with Razor-X's cranium and some potion-smashing
14:39:22 * ihope_ hands GreyKnight two fizzy potions
14:39:45 * GreyKnight doubleshots Razor-X on both temples simultaneously!
14:40:10 * ihope_ hands GregyKnight three fizzy potions
14:41:20 * GreyKnight wields one in his left hand, one in his right hand, and holds the other between his teeth.
14:41:45 * GreyKnight executes Wild Crazy Lotus Fury on Razor-X!
14:52:36 <ihope_> /me hands GreyKnight five fizzy potions
14:52:44 <ihope_> Erm, you get the idea.
14:53:02 * ihope_ hands GreyKnight five fizzy potions
14:53:44 * ihope_ attempts to catch it, but fails
14:54:18 * ihope_ pours out the contents of the potion, and hmms as the bottle disappears
14:55:43 <GreyKnight> SUPER DEATH NINJA PIRATE ZOMBIE ROBOT HYPER MEGA HEART MARSHMALLOW POWAHHH
14:56:55 * ihope_ hands GreyKnight eight fizzy potions
14:58:15 * ihope_ hands GreyKnight five more fizzy potions
14:58:55 * GreyKnight starts catching them as they come down and tossing them at Razor-X! Crash! Crash! Crash! Crash! Crash! Crash! Crash! Crash! Crash! Crash! Crash! Crash! Crash!
14:59:43 * ihope_ hands GreyKnight a cookie sheet with 21 fizzy potions on it
15:08:24 <GreyKnight> 1: http://www.fantes.com/cookie_sheets.htm
15:08:26 <GreyKnight> 2: http://www.williams-sonoma.com/products/c-bkwspci.jsp
15:08:28 <GreyKnight> 3: http://www.epinions.com/hmgd-Cooking-Bakeware-All-7398552-Cookie___Baking_Sheets
15:08:29 <GreyKnight> 4: http://www.taunton.com/finecooking/pages/c00186.asp
15:08:31 <GreyKnight> ...plus about 10 more results for ""cookie sheet"".
15:08:50 * GreyKnight feeds the cookie sheet to his pet Xorn.
15:09:53 * GreyKnight loads the potions into a potion launcher
15:13:33 * ihope_ pushes a table carrying thirty four fizzy potions in GreyKnight's direction
15:14:23 * GreyKnight picks up Razor-X's corpse and hurls it upwards with all his strength. It disappears into the clouds...
15:16:19 <GreyKnight> (the x-width one if you have more than one)
15:17:36 <Razor-X> I don't see the harm in that.
15:25:01 <Razor-X> Time to do t3h morning vocabulary.
15:26:45 * ihope_ adds twenty-one potions to the table
15:27:01 <ihope_> No, I don't mean potions of booze.
15:44:03 * ihope_ throws a potion at GreyKnight
15:44:26 * ihope_ wheels the table of potions out of #esoteric
15:48:07 * ihope_ pours some potion mix into the Pacific Ocean
15:48:22 <ihope_> There, now the Pacific consists entirely of fizzy potion.
15:53:52 <GreyKnight> Razor-X: http://greyfire.org/file-repository/comprenglish.txt
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16:06:03 <GreyKnight> ihope_: d'you think I should go a head and implement the en/decoders?
16:07:09 <ihope_> Um... I don't think so.
16:08:47 <GreyKnight> It's a compressed form of english designed to be human-read/writeable
16:09:58 <GreyKnight> slightly buggy test: http://anysize.org/~sukoshi/compressedtest.pdf
16:16:38 <pikhq> Gregor: New version out?
16:19:19 -!- pgimeno has joined.
16:21:17 <ihope_> Compressed form of English... lemme see here.
16:22:43 <GreyKnight> ihope_: what language should I write in? Any thoughts?
16:22:56 <GreyKnight> I asked the RNG, but it said boring old C :'(
16:23:01 <ihope_> ~ = th, ! = on, @ = er, # = in, $ = he, % = re.
16:23:33 <ihope_> ~at makes c@ta# ~ngs short@.
16:23:58 <GreyKnight> Razor-X's diacriticizes the vowels and encodes common consonantal digraphs
16:25:04 <ihope_> ^ = at, & = ti, * = the, ( = nt, ) = ed, _ = en, + = te, ` = es, - = or, = = to.
16:28:02 <ihope_> 99 bottl` of be@ ! * wall...
16:31:25 <ihope_> That's slightly shorter than mine, length-in-my-proportional-font-wise.
16:32:46 <GreyKnight> The symbols seem to be chosen for similarity too, so it's easy to read/write
16:32:54 <ihope_> { = st, } = an, | = co, [ = ha, ] = me, \ = as, : = al, " = it, < = se, > = ea, ? = ve, , = is, . = nd, / = le.
16:33:16 <GreyKnight> I don't think adding MORE symbols to remember is the answer here :-P
16:37:06 <ihope_> 99 bott/s of be@ ! * w:l
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16:56:33 <Razor-X> 9-cedilla b-ring t-cedilla l-acute s | hyphen-ring f | b-acute-cedilla r| hyphen-ring n | theta-acute | w-circumflex l-cedilla|.
16:58:01 <Razor-X> 21 characters versus 30 characters.
17:02:15 <pikhq> Screw it; I'm getting sick of RawIRC.
17:02:27 -!- pikhq has quit ("RawIRC").
17:03:33 -!- pikhq has joined.
17:04:03 <pikhq> GregorR: Thank you, sir, for making me see IRC in a whole new light.
17:04:14 <Razor-X> RawIRC Experiment: Failure.
17:04:28 <Razor-X> I can't believe you've never attempted a Netcat session in IRC before.
17:05:07 <pikhq> RawIRC does kick ass, I must admit. I just want to back to the much more comfortable realms of irssi.
17:09:05 <pikhq> It's something Gregor's been working on.
17:09:06 <Razor-X> It kicks ass in a ``I-like-to-do-things-the-obtusely-difficult-way'' way (like Esoteric programming languages!) :P.
17:09:26 <pikhq> Razor-X: And that's exactly why it kicks ass. ;)
17:09:38 <ihope_> Does it have a website?
17:09:59 <Razor-X> I'm thinking of writing a Scheme port with some changes.
17:10:07 <Razor-X> Just as a proof-of-concept.
17:18:07 -!- wooby has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:45:47 -!- calamari has joined.
17:48:54 <ihope_> Let's figure out a way to move this channel across servers and set redirects that send people across servers.
17:49:58 <GreyKnight> that sit on all instances of the channel on all the servers, and echo stuff back and forth
17:50:11 <calamari> ihope_: why do you want to move servers?
17:50:14 <ihope_> What we really need to do is somehow attach Freenode to EFNet.
17:50:38 <ihope_> calamari: I didn't say that. I said find a way to do it :-P
17:50:45 <calamari> just thought ere might be a reason :)
17:50:51 -!- Sph1nx has quit (" !").
17:51:10 <ihope_> So who's going to hack into one of the Freenode servers and attach it?
17:51:39 <calamari> a long time ago I wrote a cross-server bot in pirch script :)
17:53:15 <ihope_> Say, I gotta remember to use PCON at the next possible opportunity.
17:54:27 <calamari> ihope: if you're serious about this whole channel joining thing, I have a shell that I can run bots on
17:54:38 <calamari> I'm assuming there is software that is good for this
17:55:13 <ihope_> Nah, it'd just be cool :-)
17:55:27 <GreyKnight> just make sure the bots flood-protect themselves, otherwise somebody flooding themselves off on one server will kill the bots on the other ones :-o
17:57:08 <calamari> before servers cracked down on bots I had a cool idea to have it join again for each person in the channel.. then it would almost be like they were there
17:57:56 <pikhq> Well, as soon as I bother writing the mailman and phone class. . .
17:58:08 <ihope_> Looks like irc.servercentral.net allows bots.
17:59:55 <calamari> might as well ask here too :) I'm looking for a free cross-platform game (family-friendly). Something fun for a LAN party. Any ideas?
18:01:31 <calamari> yep, that's been suggested :) thanks
18:03:10 <calamari> I wrote a single player htw in linguine :)
18:03:43 <calamari> I think most people would enjoy some kind of flashy graphics and sound ;)
18:03:52 <GreyKnight> You could even have some players being wumpuses!
18:05:48 <calamari> hah.. from the IRC bot wikpedia page: The original IRC bot was GM, written by IRC server operator Greg Lindahl, whose IRC nickname was Wumpus. GM played a game of Hunt the Wumpus with users who communicated with it over IRC.
18:06:15 <calamari> it's a sign of extreme nerddom
18:06:34 * GreyKnight wallops calamari with a +1/+1 sword of nerdery
18:06:37 <calamari> can't say I'm not tempted.. but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't go over well ;)
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18:53:20 <GreyKnight> It's nice to be writing LISP in an editor that understands it :-)
18:57:55 <pikhq> Indeed, it's nice to use Emacs.
18:58:23 <GreyKnight> writing it in vi is doable, but not as easy :-)
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19:30:00 <Razor-X> I wish nCurses was written into the GNU/MIT Scheme standard :(.
19:30:07 <Razor-X> It has X Windows support, but not nCurses.
19:35:38 <lindi-> and s/nCurses/Ncurses/ :)
19:37:08 <Razor-X> It has Win32 GUI API support too.
19:39:16 * GreyKnight wonders what ihope's pattern is trying to prove
19:39:26 <ihope_> If I'm not mistaken, that'll result in legallyllegallyelegallyglegallyalegallyllegallyllegallyylegally.
19:43:00 <calamari> so.. software for this bot, or has interest approached 0?
19:47:10 <ihope_> Interest is approaching 0. Some quantity can't have approached some other quantity, as far as I know.
19:48:26 <calamari> bzflag is taking a while to compile
19:49:04 <GreyKnight> Did you use the --compile-in-less-than-an-imperial-century option?
19:50:30 * GreyKnight considers adding "imperial century" to his copy of units(1)
19:54:44 <GreyKnight> well, a metric century is 100 years (10*10), and an imperial one is 289 years (17*17)
19:54:48 * pikhq considers getting off his ass and doing something
19:54:59 <GreyKnight> makes about as much sense as any *real* imperial unit :-)
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19:56:32 <pikhq> I assume that means that an imperial decade is 1/254.5 of an imperial century? :p
19:57:18 <pikhq> It makes too much sense to just square the amount of decades.
19:57:59 <GreyKnight> It should be 14 years for a decade and 17 decades in a century
19:58:36 <pikhq> The imperial decade shall be defined in terms of seconds. pi^(10^1000) seconds. :p
19:59:37 <GreyKnight> look at all the round numbers in that formula!
20:00:29 <ihope_> Those parentheses are unnecessary. pi^10^1000 would do.
20:01:19 <GreyKnight> yeah, it currently just translates to host integers
20:01:33 -!- esobridge has joined.
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20:01:46 <GreyKnight> I'll implement proper arbitrary-precision arithmetic when I put in non-integral numbers :-3
20:01:56 -!- calamari has changed nick to esobridge.
20:02:06 <ihope_> Make sure to do them as Church numerals.
20:02:51 <jix> GreyKnight: what is that do eval thing?
20:02:58 <GreyKnight> I'll be sure to make a reader macro for doing church
20:03:07 -!- esobridge has changed nick to calamari.
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20:03:28 <GreyKnight> so-called because it's horribly mutated and deformed :-3
20:03:48 <jix> GreyKnight: written in?
20:03:49 <esobridge> --> calamari (~calamari@ip68-231-173-86.tc.ph.cox.net) has joined #esoteric
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20:05:54 <calamari> GreyKnight: /msg esobridge help
20:05:56 <jix> where is the other channel?
20:05:59 <esobridge> --> jix (~jix@L63b9.l.strato-dslnet.de) has joined #esoteric
20:06:05 <jix> ah found it ^^
20:06:25 <jix> that is kind of annoying
20:06:49 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:07:03 <esobridge> <ihope> I'd estimate a second or two.
20:07:03 <jix> only in efnet => freenode
20:07:09 <jix> the other way arround it's fast
20:07:12 <calamari> yeah, because I am downloading a bunch of Ubuntu updates
20:07:33 <esobridge> <-- jix (~jix@L63b9.l.strato-dslnet.de) has left #esoteric
20:07:41 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
20:07:50 <esobridge> <ihope> Oh, it doesn't do part messages.
20:08:01 <esobridge> --> GreyKnigh (~wheel@88-108-235-232.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) has joined #esoteric
20:09:06 * esobridge thinks GregorR should jump off a cliff
20:09:08 -!- Kurt has joined.
20:09:39 <ihope_> <esobridge> <-- jix (~jix@L63b9.l.strato-dslnet.de) has left #esoteric
20:10:03 <esobridge> <-- GreyKnigh (~wheel@88-108-235-232.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) has left #esoteric
20:10:34 <esobridge> <calamari> it is gpl, you fixor it ;)
20:10:56 <esobridge> <ihope> It's your client or the server or something that doesn't support part messages.
20:10:58 <GreyKnight> I am writing an en/decoder for Razor-X's latest
20:11:24 <GreyKnight> did my part reason show up normally in the channel?
20:11:50 <GreyKnight> My client definitely does them, so I guess it's efnet
20:12:22 <esobridge> <ihope> Maybe the server you're on doesn't support it.
20:12:23 <esobridge> --> GreyKnigh (~wheel@88-108-235-232.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) has joined #esoteric
20:12:34 -!- GreyKnight has left (?).
20:12:35 <calamari> so, is there any point to fixing the bridge.. seems kinda annoying
20:12:36 <esobridge> <-- ihope (~ihope@c-71-205-100-59.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) has left #esoteric
20:12:53 -!- GreyKnight has joined.
20:13:53 <jix> those esobridge is very annoying
20:14:09 <calamari> it'd be okay if it duplicated nicks
20:14:15 <esobridge> --> monik (99@200.123.187.149) has joined #esoteric
20:14:20 <jix> why span a channel over several networks?
20:14:40 <jix> i did that with another channel a time ago... it was just annoying
20:14:42 <GreyKnight> Also, it should specify the network when referencing channels like that.
20:15:12 <GreyKnight> --> monik (99@200.123.187.149) has joined efnet/#esoteric
20:15:15 <ihope_> Bridge a network to itself!
20:15:40 <ihope_> No, use two bridgebots!
20:15:48 <ihope_> Oh, and you might as well reference the nicks by server instead of the channels.
20:16:09 <ihope_> Two bridgebots, both doing the same pair of networks.
20:16:28 <GreyKnight> and not filtering each other's messages
20:17:11 <ihope_> Spam, spam, spam, spam.
20:18:37 <esobridge> <-- GreyKnigh has quit (Quit: I don't need to be on BOTH channels...)
20:18:50 <GreyKnight> well, it catches /quit messages, anyway :-3
20:18:58 -!- esobridge has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:19:03 -!- esobridge has joined.
20:19:07 -!- esobridge has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:19:16 <GreyKnight> Not every day you get to see your own quit!
20:19:38 <jix> just put a bot in the other networks telling people to go to freenode
20:19:41 -!- esobridge has joined.
20:19:43 -!- esobridge has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:20:20 -!- esobridge has joined.
20:20:24 -!- esobridge has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:21:02 <calamari> need to see what this guy did wrong :P
20:22:21 -!- esobridge has joined.
20:22:52 -!- esobridge has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:23:04 <calamari> *** glibc detected *** double free or corruption (!prev): 0x080515b0 ***
20:24:01 <ihope_> So it's written in C, is it?
20:24:13 <ihope_> Scrap it and write it in a memory-safe language :-P
20:24:36 <calamari> ihope: I'll leave that project in your capable hands
20:24:39 <GreyKnight> or, heck, do it in an esoteric language!
20:25:07 <GreyKnight> OGEL can be extended to perform network operations
20:25:11 <calamari> GreyKnight: yeah, wish I could get PESOIX to work
20:26:02 <calamari> hmm, what if I replaced some of the stdio calls with LD_PRELOAD
20:27:29 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> WTF is esobridge :P ... where was the channel it bridged to?
20:28:33 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:29:04 <calamari> GregorR: a crappily written gpl bridge program I found off google
20:29:28 <GreyKnight> Also, CakeProphet's connection has been going up and down faster than a stack pointer in a tight loop
20:29:41 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
20:30:00 <ihope_> I've taken over efnet/#esoteric!
20:30:18 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:30:20 <calamari> ihope: good job, that must have been tough
20:30:24 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> ihope_: You were using telnet for your IRC client for a while, right?
20:30:51 <calamari> esp since no one was in the channel
20:31:01 <ihope_> ifndef_GREGOR_H: something like that, yeah.
20:31:36 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> It's telnet + auto-ping-ponging + colorization for IRC protocol.
20:31:54 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> Oh, + ^P expands to PRIVMSG and ^O expands to the last channel you typed.
20:34:16 <ihope_> And your nick's intruding on the space the messages are supposed to go in on my client.
20:34:51 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> But this nick is clever and original ... if you use C[++] :P
20:35:23 <jix> ifndef_GREGOR_H: you should join #ifndef.....
20:36:18 <jix> it does... i would get ops if it didn't right?
20:37:02 <GreyKnight> * Contact: parasite-, last seen: 3 years 4 weeks 4 days (7h 54m 40s) ago
20:37:26 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> I remember from ##brainfuck that that last seen is NOT the last time they were on the network.
20:37:52 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> :NickServ!NickServ@services. NOTICE ifndef_GREGOR_H : Last Seen: 42 weeks 3 days (9h 13m 19s) ago
20:40:00 <jix> hmm is there a lisp interpreter written in bash?
20:41:15 <jix> there is a forth interpreter written in bash
20:41:20 <jix> so why not a lisp oneß
20:43:32 <jix> ihope_: well shift+ ß == ? on de keyboards
20:43:36 <ihope_> ß iß not an English letter.
20:43:53 <ihope_> No, I don't think it iß.
20:44:15 <ihope_> ß ißn't needed if you talk in all capital letterß.
20:44:28 <ihope_> YOU JUST SAY SS INSTEAD.
20:45:09 <ihope_> It's DASS, not DAß, unless you need to distinguish between dass and daß.
20:45:15 <jix> i don't know why it's called sz and the html code is ß because it really is a ss ligature
20:45:27 <jix> ihope_: well its dass lowercase
20:45:43 <jix> ihope_: it used to be daß but it is dass now... (don't confuse it with das)
20:45:49 <jix> wait were you german?
20:45:57 <jix> you weren't right?
20:46:08 <ihope_> I'm not German at all... well, maybe slightly.
20:46:14 <jix> hmm that was someone other with i*!*@*
20:46:39 * ihope_ almost does a /whois i*!*@*
20:47:09 <ihope_> Or... no, that wasn't it.
20:48:16 <GregorR> (12:38:20) CD Gregor R: The game of?
20:48:16 <GregorR> (12:38:38) <>: Dude, I'm the gamer. I'm supposed to make that joke.
20:48:18 <GregorR> (12:39:03) CD Gregor R: The game of life is not a game.
20:48:20 <GregorR> (12:39:39) CD Gregor R: It's a Turing Complete cellular automaton simulation.
20:48:24 <GregorR> (12:39:52) <>: Stop using big words.
20:49:59 <GreyKnight> I haven't slept in over 24 hours, I have an excuse.
20:50:07 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> Doesn't matter if you spell it right so long as you're not pretentious, right? ;)
20:53:23 * GreyKnight throws ifndef_GREGOR_H a cockatrice corpse. "Catch!"
21:01:35 * pikhq should, like, try and get his uncompression program work for EOF=-1. . .
21:01:47 <GreyKnight> ifndef_GREGOR_H touches the cockatrice corpse. ifndef_GREGOR_H turns to stone!
21:01:54 * pikhq should also do something more useful. :p
21:03:38 <pikhq> Maybe prove that EgoBFI is broken in some way? :p
21:04:56 <pikhq> Maybe make a BF to DF compiler.
21:05:47 * ihope_ realizes that his IRC bot will actually run now
21:05:59 <ihope_> And it'll terminate immediately.
21:06:20 <Razor-X> I need to steal some IRC parser code.
21:06:35 <ihope_> I think it connects to Freenode, creates a variable, forks off the IRC reader loop, and quits.
21:06:48 <pikhq> Gregor actually has some.
21:07:17 <Razor-X> Parser code is always annoying.
21:08:19 <pikhq> [.,],[>>>>+<<<<[->>+>+<<<]>>[-<<+>>]>-------------------------------------------<[-]>[<+>[-]]+<[>-<-]>[<<,[>>>[-]<<<->[-]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<]>>[-]]<<<[->>+>+<<<]>>[-<<+>>]>---------------------------------------------<[-]>[<+>[-]]+<[>-<-]>[<<,[>>>[-]<<<->[-]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<]>>[-]]<<<[->>+>+<<<]>>[-<<+>>]>------------------------------------------------------------<[-]>[<+>[-]]+<[>-<-]
21:08:27 <ihope_> There, I just wrote another easy part of my code.
21:08:38 <ihope_> The bot still compiles, and it still doesn't do anything.
21:10:41 <ihope_> Another easy part, and it no longer compiles.
21:10:55 <Razor-X> You seem quite good at writing IRC bots, ihope_.
21:11:22 <ihope_> What makes you say that?
21:12:56 <Razor-X> Hooray Ibiblio for archiving everything semi-useful on the internet!
21:14:28 <Razor-X> Trivial? Yes. Boring? Totally.
21:14:41 <pikhq> Do something for the Esolangs contest.
21:15:15 <ihope_> Hey, all my function parameters up to now have been implicit...
21:15:17 <pikhq> Do some coding for it.
21:15:20 <Razor-X> Although in 9 minutes I'll be doing my homework.
21:15:22 <pikhq> Just for the hell of it, you know.
21:15:40 <Razor-X> If I get time I want to try out my hand at a synthetic trig function.
21:16:36 <GreyKnight> The CORDIC algorithm for trigonometric functions... check it out, you'll like
21:17:37 <ihope_> There, now the IRC bot compiles again.
21:18:01 <Razor-X> I would've done the power series, but... remember, don't give the contestants answers.
21:18:05 <ihope_> Actually, it's more of an overly simple IRC client.
21:18:34 <GreyKnight> Er, CORDIC is completely useless! Pay no attention; I am trying to confuse
21:18:47 * ihope_ does wacky things with buffering
21:19:42 <ihope_> This IRC bot is somewhat less sophisticated than GregorR's IRC client.
21:20:20 * ihope_ waits for it to arrive
21:20:42 -!- EagleBot has joined.
21:20:49 <Razor-X> Should I change from GNU Scheme to GNU Guile?
21:21:10 <Razor-X> But GNU Guile is interpreted :(.
21:21:30 <pikhq> !bf [.,],[>>>>+<<<<[->>+>+<<<]>>[-<<+>>]>-------------------------------------------<[-]>[<+>[-]]+<[>-<-]>[<<,[>>>[-]<<<->[-]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<]>>[-]]<<<[->>+>+<<<]>>[-<<+>>]>---------------------------------------------<[-]>[<+>[-]]+<[>-<-]>[<<,[>>>[-]<<<->[-]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<]>>[-]]<<<[->>+>+<<<]>>[-<<+>>]>------------------------------------------------------------<[-]>[<+>[-]]+<[>
21:21:55 <pikhq> . . . Why did it die?
21:22:09 <ihope_> Now, the bot doesn't respond to PINGs or anything.
21:22:13 <Razor-X> Because you're a bad programmer!
21:22:21 <ihope_> It's essentially just a TCP client with some automated stuff added.
21:22:29 <pikhq> But it works on EgoBFI. . .
21:22:40 <Razor-X> Isn't that what every IRC client is, ihope_ ?
21:22:42 <ihope_> It doesn't respond to anything.
21:22:50 <pikhq> In fact, that's the targeted interpreter. . .
21:22:54 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon cat reload
21:22:57 <EgoBot> 2 EgoBot: daemon EgoBot reload
21:23:01 <ihope_> Razor-X: they add more automated stuff than this bot does :-)
21:23:27 -!- EagleBot has quit (Client Quit).
21:23:30 <pikhq> !bf [.,],[>>>>+<<<<[->>+>+<<<]>>[-<<+>>]>-------------------------------------------<[-]>[<+>[-]]+<[>-<-]>[<<,[>>>[-]<<<->[-]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<]>>[-]]<<<[->>+>+<<<]>>[-<<+>>]>---------------------------------------------<[-]>[<+>[-]]+<[>-<-]>[<<,[>>>[-]<<<->[-]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<]>>[-]]<<<[->>+>+<<<]>>[-<<+>>]>------------------------------------------------------------<[-]>[<+>[-]]+<[>
21:23:47 <pikhq> !i 3 [.,],[>+[-+]>[-+]>+<+,[>[-<-<>[-]<[-+]>[-+]>-<+,[>[-<-<>[-]<[-+]>[-+]><<+,[>[-<-.<>[-]<[-+]>[-+]>><+,[>[-<-<>[-]>.>-[-<]
21:24:01 <pikhq> Argh. Wrong input.
21:24:43 * pikhq kills Gregor and his anti-Brainfuck stuff
21:25:49 <pikhq> !bf http://pastebin.ca/raw/159206
21:26:01 <EgoBot> 0:43|0|0|*43|1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|
21:26:06 <ihope_> Now, this thing has an odd bug that is echoing every message I type into it.
21:26:34 <EgoBot> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++0:86|0|0|*43|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|
21:26:42 <ihope_> It's trivial to fix, of course.
21:32:29 <Razor-X> Wow. This guy is even worse than mine. Naming a local binding creat-loop.
21:32:40 <Razor-X> Well, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because it *is* a local binding.
21:35:53 -!- Kurt has changed nick to RerunVanPelt.
21:43:18 <Razor-X> Guile is pretty ugly about some things.
21:45:34 <Razor-X> It looks a lot like an unholy marriage between C and Scheme in some places....
21:45:58 <GreyKnight> "hellish spawn" is another choice phrase
21:49:39 <Razor-X> Gah. Now MzScheme is tempting me.
21:49:49 <Razor-X> But homework is calling me with a much stronger voice.
21:49:55 <Razor-X> So, the decision must defer!
21:50:16 <Razor-X> GreyKnight: 'Till then, think up any changes you thought needed to be made to Compressed English.
21:50:18 <GreyKnight> Hmm, I don't know this "Homework" language; is it on the wikiw?
21:50:35 <Razor-X> It's a very very old programming language.
21:50:43 <GreyKnight> I'mma work on en/decoder, I'll see what throws up from that
21:51:12 <Razor-X> If you can get the vowel contractions to expand/contract out fine, it shouldn't be any work after that.
21:51:38 <Razor-X> I was thinking of making something similar in LaTeX code itself.
21:52:48 -!- EagleBot has joined.
21:52:48 -!- EagleBot has changed nick to Google.
21:53:29 -!- Google has quit (Client Quit).
21:54:26 <ihope_> Oh, and I forgot that EagleBot automatically joined #esoteric.
21:54:54 <ihope_> "params str | all isWhite str = []" <- MY BOT IS RACEIST!!!!!!!!11
21:55:29 <pikhq> Your bot should seriously just run through RawIRC.
21:55:43 <ihope_> It's one of those homemade bots.
21:55:54 <ihope_> No bot base or anything.
21:55:58 <pikhq> ifndef_GREGOR_H: You know, I still haven't gotten networking support for ORK done. . .
22:06:53 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
22:16:25 -!- ifndef_GREGOR_H has quit ("Small fix to RawIRC").
22:17:37 -!- ifndef_GREGOR_H has joined.
22:23:04 -!- EagleBot has joined.
22:23:04 -!- EagleBot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:28:14 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> BTW, no bot should run through RawIRC, RawIRC does syntax highlighting :P
22:29:46 <GreyKnight> but you could at least use its code as a base for bot construction :-3
22:30:00 <pikhq> But you could fix that.
22:31:55 -!- ifndef_GREGOR_H has quit ("One more fix to RawIRC...I'm tired of my console being F***'d up when I quit :P").
22:33:47 -!- EagleBot has joined.
22:34:04 <ihope_> Hopefully this guy'll PONG.
22:34:13 -!- ifndef_GREGOR_H has joined.
22:35:01 <ihope_> When you joined, there were two spaces between the JOIN and the :#esoteric.
22:35:35 <ihope_> I figure it's a minor bug.
22:35:49 <ihope_> And the echo bug seems fixed.
22:36:50 <calamari> GregorR: know of any free multiplayer dogfighting games? earth, space, whatever
22:37:04 <ihope_> Apart from that bug which couldn't get any more minor, I think this guy's bug-free.
22:37:22 <calamari> figured you were into flight games :)
22:37:39 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> I usually have enough fun just flying WITHOUT shooting anything :P
22:38:29 <calamari> I should try flightgear again now that I have virtual memory :)
22:40:56 <calamari> seems to work with my joystick
22:41:28 <ihope_> This bot isn't printing the pings and the pongs.
22:41:38 <calamari> wow, it doesn't like the plane being upside down.. annoying sound
22:42:03 <calamari> need to calibrate the joystick somehow
22:42:26 -!- EagleBot has quit ("Foo").
22:42:33 <GreyKnight> that's the sound of your impending doom :-3
22:42:59 <GreyKnight> <calamari> wow, it doesn't like the plane being upside down.. annoying sound
22:44:07 -!- EagleBot has joined.
22:44:29 <ihope_> Now this guy'll display the ping-pong games it plays.
22:44:37 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
22:45:00 <ihope_> GreyKnight: not that kind of ping and pong/
22:45:25 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:45:39 <ihope_> Good job, bsmntbombdood.
22:46:00 <ihope_> You said not to use it for IRC bots.
22:46:27 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> I could add hooks to plug in external IRC bots, but, erm, no.
22:47:08 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
22:47:09 <ihope_> Just merge it with EagleBot
22:58:19 <calamari> one axis of my joystick doesn't seem to be working
23:15:45 -!- EagleBot has quit ("Recompiling").
23:16:34 -!- EagleBot has joined.
23:20:55 <ihope_> Now the bot doesn't look like it PONGs right before PINGing :-)
23:21:28 <ihope_> That is, right before getting PINGed.
23:21:50 -!- EagleBot has left (?).
23:22:05 <ihope_> I suppose I should add a config file thing.
23:25:12 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving").
23:31:16 -!- EagleBot has joined.
23:35:11 <ihope_> So I can now change what EagleBot does on startup without recompiling.
23:35:29 <ihope_> Actually, more just reloading than compiling.
00:02:45 -!- calamari has joined.
00:03:06 -!- calamari has left (?).
00:03:16 -!- calamari has joined.
00:04:33 -!- calamari_ has joined.
00:06:20 <calamari> only works without +n mode tho
00:06:51 <calamari> I can have the bot stay out of the channel, change nicks, then msg the channel
00:07:18 <calamari> I guess I'd need another bot to report joins and quits
00:08:16 <fizzie> You can always give it a comprehensive list of all the interesting people, then have it WHOIS those.
00:09:17 <fizzie> Then you don't need to look at joins and quits on the channel.
00:09:51 <calamari> actually, I'd need two bots anyways
00:10:02 <calamari> one would need to be there to listen to the channel
00:10:41 <calamari> but I still don't understand what you meant :)
00:12:04 <calamari> oh wait.. I think I understand fizzie now
00:12:17 <calamari> that would probably get my bot banned or something hehe
00:12:50 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> RawIRC = awesome. Anybody who uses a traditional IRC client is a pansy.
00:14:57 -!- pikhqRaw has joined.
00:15:42 <calamari> can't figure out the syntax? :P
00:16:13 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> pikhqRaw: I have another release I haven't uploaded yet. One sec.
00:16:43 <pikhq> The server doesn't allow me to give a CTCP reply. x_x
00:16:50 <calamari> oh is RawIRC a program you wrote? was assuming you meant telnet
00:17:15 <pikhqRaw> Yeah, it's an advanced Telnet client. :p
00:17:21 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> calamari: It's telnet + auto-ping-pong + some macros for things like PRIVMSG
00:17:43 -!- calamari_ has left (?).
00:17:52 -!- pikhqRaw has quit (Client Quit).
00:19:41 -!- pikhqRaw has joined.
00:19:55 <pikhqRaw> So, what's new in this version?
00:20:27 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> pikhqRaw: Just some minor fixes. Diff against stuff in http://www.codu.org/rawirc.old/ stuff if you'd like.
00:20:46 <pikhqRaw> Last version I used was revision 2. . .
00:22:13 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> That's a problem..................................................................................................................................................
00:23:32 -!- calamari has changed nick to calamari90123456.
00:24:29 -!- calamari90123456 has changed nick to WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW.
00:24:39 -!- RerunVanPelt has quit (Connection timed out).
00:25:47 -!- WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW has changed nick to calamari.
00:27:48 <pikhqRaw> The added coloring is the most obvious bit.
00:28:01 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> And there were some fixes to the display that I just found out broke something else weeeeeeeeeeeeeeh.
00:29:08 <calamari> so do you have to type the channel nam,e in front of everything you say ?
00:30:29 <pikhqRaw> Because what you input is, in effect, the IRC protocol.
00:30:48 <calamari> that's what I input too.. after all
00:31:07 <pikhqRaw> You input "PRIVMSG #esoteric:"?
00:31:08 <calamari> yep, otherwise we couldn't communicate over irc
00:31:28 <pikhqRaw> Well, that's what you input here.
00:31:31 <calamari> I have a program that does it for me, I just don't need to push control-o
00:32:48 <calamari> I can see a raw log if I want to
00:37:21 -!- ifndef_GREGOR_H has quit ("Testing one more change...").
00:39:59 -!- ifndef_GREGOR_H has joined.
00:39:59 -!- ifndef_GREGOR_H has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:40:30 -!- ifndef_GREGOR_H has joined.
00:40:30 -!- ifndef_GREGOR_H has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:40:50 <GregorR> I kept starting it up against FreeNode instead of localhost >_<
00:41:56 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:44:35 -!- ifndef_GREGOR_H has joined.
00:45:16 * ifndef_GREGOR_H didn't actually think about the fact that that would come out as a CTCP :P
00:45:41 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> (All I did was make it replace unprintable characters with something visible)
00:58:50 <pikhqRaw> Perhaps next you could make it so I don't need to hit C-a a to do CTCP?
01:05:54 -!- EagleBot has changed nick to ihope.
01:06:22 <ihope> EagleBot makes a fine IRC client.
01:06:58 <ihope> Almost as good as RawIRC.
01:08:43 -!- ihope__ has joined.
01:09:42 <ihope__> That was NOT because EagleBot makes a terrible IRC client.
01:09:45 -!- ihope has quit (Nick collision from services.).
01:09:47 -!- ihope_ has quit (Nick collision from services.).
01:09:48 -!- ihope__ has changed nick to ihope.
01:10:32 <pikhq> But, I assume, that EagleBot is a terrible IRC client.
01:10:56 <ihope> EagleBot is much better than both PuTTYtel and Windoze telnet by far.
01:12:05 -!- ihope has changed nick to ihope_.
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01:13:07 <ihope> Note that my username is EagleBot.
01:15:01 * ihope adds multiple-servers-but-not-at-once stuff to EagleBot
01:15:53 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> Is that French for, "I'm now running EagleBot under an OS that supports multiple concurrent processes!"
01:16:41 <ihope> It's French for "I'm about to make it so that the server to connect to is not hard-coded".
01:17:32 <ihope> It's just a matter of parsing the config file...
01:17:42 <pikhq> You know, we really need to have a bot in an Esolang.
01:18:35 <ihope> Actually, lemme do a bit of arcane tweakery.
01:20:00 <pikhq> I'm in the mood for some Glassery.
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01:22:11 <ihope> Actually, I need this terminal for something else, too.
01:22:23 <ihope> Not to mention that I'll have to recompile the bot anyway.
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01:37:24 <pikhq> Oh, dear lord. He actually made an IRC bot with Glass.
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01:54:14 <pikhqNC> Wow. You know, RawIRC is much better than netcat.
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01:57:40 <pikhq> You know, in comparison with Brainfuck, Glass is just luxurious.
01:59:20 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> It's nowhere near the level of esotericism it needs to be to be truly esoteric.
01:59:33 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> To the degree that it was part of my inspiration to make Plof, a non-esoteric language.
02:01:00 * pikhq needs to look at Plof a bit. . .
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02:39:57 * ihope_ updates the topic of ##quantum
02:59:00 <Razor-X> I was gonna ask you what happened to Plof when you decided to make RawIRC.
03:00:35 <Razor-X> Sounds to me like you ran out of Plof-steam.
03:01:28 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> You've never actually paid attention to my programming projects, have you :-P
03:03:11 <Razor-X> Now, I wonder whether I should join the league of Guile Schemers or try out MzScheme....
03:03:21 <Razor-X> That decision will affect many things.
03:07:01 <Razor-X> After looking at the not-anymore-existing MzScheme Ncurses library, my choice is made -- Guile.
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04:04:47 <calamari> GregorR: how is your c->bf compiler?
04:10:17 <pikhq> calamari: I think he last touched months ago.
04:10:36 <Razor-X> pikhq: Have you taken a look at Compressed English?
04:11:06 <pikhq> Razor-X: Have you taken a look at my entry?
04:11:28 <pikhq> Razor-X: You should.
04:13:42 <pikhq> I'm not looking at Compressed English until you look at my entry.
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14:04:50 <ihope_> Marty! Marty! Marty! You gotta come back with me. Where? I need fuel. Where? Back to the future! Doc, you better back up; we don't have enough road to get up to 88. Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads. What is the power of love? Yeah...
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17:57:04 <ihope_> How to encode two bits in one character: ;,:.:,.,;:;:.,.,:;..:;,;.:;:,,.;
17:57:37 <pikhq> Surely it'd be simpler to just encode 8 bits in one character?
18:07:02 <ihope_> Nah, 6.56985561 bits in one character.
18:07:24 <ihope_> Actually, make that 6.56985560 bits.
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18:37:34 <pikhq> I'll go and write compress.bfc. . .
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18:58:11 <pikhq> Mmkay. Now, with that, I've got a clear algorithm for creating compress.b. . .
19:38:01 * pikhq is thinking of a very, very simple macro package for Brainfuck. . .
19:38:39 <pikhq> Something sufficiently low-level that, in essence, the macros would be effective comments for the Brainfuck code. . .
19:38:55 <pikhq> Just random thoughts.
20:02:18 <pikhq> bfmacro copy {from to temp} {temp[-]to[-]from[to+temp+from-]temp[from+temp-]}
20:02:27 <pikhq> An example of my random thoughts.
20:05:14 <RodgerTheGreat> I think the consensus is pretty unanimous that remapping relative addressing to variables is the best trivial polymorphism of BF that makes it a more powerful language.
20:05:44 <pikhq> BTW, each variable is assigned, by the programmer, an address. . .
20:05:51 <pikhq> @ variable address
20:06:21 <pikhq> Makes things much simpler.
20:07:05 <pikhq> macro copy {from to temp} {temp=0;to=0;while from {add to 1;add temp 1;subtract from 1};while temp {add y 1;subtract temp 1}} -- the same macro, using the macro language's builtins instead of psuedo-Brainfuck. . .
20:08:27 <pikhq> If I get bored enough, I might actually implement this. . .
20:08:48 <pikhq> And do some formal specs.
20:09:28 <pikhq> Anyone else care to chime in?
20:11:42 <GregorR> Congratulations, you've made the C preprocessor ;)
20:11:52 <GregorR> (You'd be shocked what the C preprocessor can do for BF)
20:12:17 <pikhq> GregorR: I'm actually not surprised that it's a lot like the C preprocessor. . .
20:13:02 <pikhq> Considering that my thoughts involved thinking "Hmm. How could we do this [the C preprocessor] for Brainfuck?", it's almost inevitable. :p
20:14:36 <GregorR> Lemme see if I can find my old BF with Macros stuff.
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20:18:29 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> pikhq: Here, have some assorted garbage, some of which may be helpful: http://www.codu.org/mbf/
20:18:41 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> Consider that all to be under the MIT license where ambiguous.
20:20:56 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> I should mention, MBF isn't really very adjustable to addresses, all the macros assume you set things up at the proper address.
20:21:11 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> It would be possible to adjust it with location macros, though.
20:22:18 <pikhq> I'll probably just strip it for ideas, instead of code, then.
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20:32:59 <pikhq> ifndef_GREGOR_H: Okay, my system would be *like* that, except that it'd be a *little* more flexible, since one can call each macro with variables to operate on, instead of needing to have the operands to each in the right location.
21:02:18 <kipple_> anyone know how to configure a "web site is down for maintenance" page in apache?
21:02:32 <kipple_> i.e. all http requests return the same page
21:16:25 <pikhq> That MBF thing is a lot of klduges.
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21:36:07 <pikhq> Mmkay. I've got a simple spec for my ideas done.
21:36:19 <ihope_> Spec spec spec spec spec spec spec... wait, what?
21:36:32 <pikhq> Now, I should *probably* write an implementation. . .
21:37:05 <pikhq> Or just show off my work. :p
21:37:43 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca/160055
21:45:01 <pikhq> Mmkay. Who here wishes to comments?
21:55:52 <pikhq> COMMENT, OR THE BABY GETS IT!!!
21:56:02 * pikhq holds up a baby and a loaded pistol
22:02:06 * pikhq is still holding the baby
22:02:08 * kipple_ kills the bad guy (pikhq), saves the baby, gets the girl and rides into the sunset
22:03:29 <pikhq> Seriously, though. Could someone at *least* say I'm an idiot or something?
22:03:46 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca/160055 Read. Speak.
22:03:55 <pikhq> Or I shall haunt the baby till it dies.
22:04:58 -!- CXI has quit (Connection timed out).
22:05:28 <GregorR> DO NOT PUT THE BABY WITH pikhq!!!
22:06:24 <Razor-X> That stunk of tab complete.
22:10:04 <Razor-X> You may read, but do not comment.
22:11:00 <ihope_> It looks like C, possible.
22:11:21 <pikhq> Sorry, but I like this channel specifically because people are willing to tell me if/when I'm an idiot. . .
22:11:48 <ihope_> You are not currently an idiot.
22:11:49 <Razor-X> You never read Compressed English :(.
22:12:12 <Razor-X> Well, you never commented about it anyhow.
22:12:15 <pikhq> Razor-X: You never read my entry.
22:13:20 <pikhq> Now, I need to figure out how to compile it. . .
22:14:05 <Razor-X> Now, I must finish my vocabulary for t3h day.
22:16:48 <pikhq> It seems that it would be possible to implement this inside of a slave interpreter in Tcl. . .
22:20:27 <ihope_> The Internets are Turing-complete.
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22:54:36 * pikhq needs ideas for implementing his macro language
22:55:18 <pikhq> Or, of course, someone sufficiently bored to do it for me. :p
22:56:21 <Razor-X> I might, if it's not too difficult to parse it.
22:57:16 <pikhq> It's essentially Polish notation.
22:57:59 <Razor-X> I'll look into it later tonight.
22:58:26 <Razor-X> Since I have to run my vocabulary down, then finish up some more homework, then I'll be free to do whatever I feel.
22:58:37 <Razor-X> Regular expressions in GNU Scheme are annoying.
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23:23:14 * pikhq waits for Razor-X to finish. . .
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23:40:22 <pikhq> Razor-X: You've got one convenient thing for this: I've already described, in much detail, the compilation of one example. . . ;)
23:48:21 <Razor-X> pikhq: Don't hold your breath, later for me means another 5 hours at most.
23:48:32 <Razor-X> An example -- that's good.
23:52:05 <pikhq> How long could it take you to do vocab and homework, anyways?
23:52:54 <pikhq> Besides, tomorrow is labor day. . . Do you *need* to get your homework done?
00:01:04 <Razor-X> Yeah I feel oddly motivated this year, and 4 AP classes puts a lot of work.
00:02:02 <Razor-X> Well, all I really have is US history homework left (2 large worksheets), but I also want to get started on some of next week's math homework and I might start on some of next week's Physics homework, depending on my mood.
00:02:40 <Razor-X> And vocab is typically a 3 hour affair per day, heh.
00:04:23 <ihope_> Why can't you do a real response thing, then?
00:05:53 <ihope_> NOTICE ihope :^AVERSION RawIRC^A
00:09:48 <pikhq> ifndef_GREGOR_H: The IRC spec states that a PRIVMSG isn't to be used for automated replies; that's the job of NOTICE.
00:09:55 <pikhq> CTCP follows that spec.
00:12:30 * pikhq makes out with his macro language
00:12:53 <pikhq> Mmm. Technophilia.
00:13:17 <pikhq> And, since I made it, it's also incest. :p
00:13:27 <pikhq> Technophilic incest. Whee.
00:14:50 <ihope_> Hmm, it seems I was wrong or something.
00:15:17 <ihope_> [ifndef_GREGOR_H] [\0x01]VERSION RawIRC[\0x01]
00:15:33 <ihope_> ...Did you send that to the channel?
00:15:44 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> I sent one to the channel just to see what clients would do ;)
00:15:54 <pikhq> 17:06 CTCP VERSION reply from ifndef_GREGOR_H in channel #esoteric: RawIRC
00:15:58 <pikhq> That's what I got.
00:16:29 <pikhq> PRIVMSG looks better.
00:16:58 <ihope_> In this ChatZilla theme thing, it's red and bold rather than plain black.
00:17:19 <ihope_> And there's [] around the nick instead of <>.
00:17:28 <ihope_> Other than that, it's all the same.
00:20:19 <Razor-X> It looks quite similar to a PRIVMSG in ERC.
00:20:27 <Razor-X> -ihope_- Eh, why doesn't everybody use NOTICE instead of PRIVMSG? <pikhq> PRIVMSG looks better.
00:20:42 * pikhq writes a standard macros better
00:20:56 <pikhq> My brain isn't working.
00:20:57 <Razor-X> I'll read your spec now, and then go to homework pikhq.
00:21:09 * pikhq is writing a standard set of macros for the language
00:23:15 <Razor-X> .... Incomprehensible spec pikhq :D.
00:23:22 <Razor-X> What are you comparing the spec to?
00:23:35 <Razor-X> For these sorts of things I prefer a straight-up BNF or ABNF.
00:24:12 <Razor-X> Backus-Naur Format. Augmented Backus-Naur Format.
00:24:36 <pikhq> Don't know it, sorry.
00:24:49 <Razor-X> You've *never* seen a BNF?!
00:25:05 <Razor-X> They're quite readable for human beings and somewhat easy to parse, which is why I love them, but wow.
00:26:32 <Razor-X> Most RFCs use either BNF or ABNF.
00:27:42 <pikhq> I assume you'd like me to actually write one for you?
00:28:59 <pikhq> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms I'm going to rewrite some of these into this macro language first.
00:29:32 <Razor-X> And I think you're reinventing the wheel too, IIRC.
00:29:41 <Razor-X> Take a look at BFA. Although that's a bit different.
00:31:03 <Razor-X> Gah. I can't believe I haven't bookmarked this... time to do some creative google searching.
00:31:48 <Razor-X> And quite thoroughly, IIRC.
00:32:13 <Razor-X> http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/utils/bfcomp-0.09/
00:32:39 <pikhq> I took some inspiration from that, actually.
00:32:48 <Razor-X> What's the logistic difference here?
00:32:50 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> That seems significantly more advanced than pikhq is aiming for.
00:33:00 <Razor-X> Or is it just a reimplementation of BFA?
00:33:03 <pikhq> Mine is much lower level.
00:33:25 <pikhq> It's in between the BFC and BFA of the bfcomp language. . .
00:34:17 <pikhq> My main issues with that was that it was a bit inefficient, because it was too high-level to allow the programmer to have much control over the resulting Brainfuck code.
00:35:00 <Razor-X> I'll think about writing a Scheme (this format)->BF compiler.
00:35:02 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> (IMHO this could all be done with the C preprocessor, but anyway :P )
00:35:02 <pikhq> Actually, yeah. That's what it is.
00:35:25 <pikhq> ifndef_GREGOR_H: Yeah, but the C preprocessor implementation, which you've done, is fugly.
00:35:49 <pikhq> This is nice and clean, IMO.
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00:36:21 <GregorR> That was ^C you f***ing idiot >_<
00:36:38 <Razor-X> Sounds like RawIRC is quite the intuitive client.
00:36:51 <GregorR> The only ctrl chars used are P, O, and A.
00:36:53 <Razor-X> Does it keep a persistent line below the telnet traffic?
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00:37:05 <pikhq> Razor-X: Among other things, that compiler has the idea of scope. Mine has just a global scope. . .
00:37:09 <pikhq> ifndef_GREGOR_H: Bravo.
00:37:25 <Razor-X> Did you use Ncurses or simple terminal control characters?
00:37:38 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> Simple terminal control. Nowhere near advanced enough to need *curses ;)
00:38:07 <Razor-X> I know more about *curses than about terminal control characters :P.
00:39:57 <pikhq> If I get bored enough, I'll implement the macro language in itself. :p
00:41:16 <Razor-X> I'm debating on whether to port ERC to Scheme or not.
00:41:47 <Razor-X> But I'll add ``features'' to it.
00:42:07 <Razor-X> That's why they're ``features''.
00:42:42 <Razor-X> Nah, I won't be adding much. A Scheme shell, and maybe a macro or two, and an RC file for you to define your own macros.
00:42:56 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> Basically, you could pass in a number of scripts, and it would fork them off and feed the raw IRC traffic into them as well :P
00:43:16 <ihope_> If God wanted Man to use `` and '', He wouldn't have invented " :-P
00:43:30 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> IF ENGLISH IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR JESUS, IT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR TEXAS
00:43:36 <Razor-X> God can go and worship Donald Knuth.
00:43:54 <ihope_> ifndef_GREGOR_H: so English isn't good enough for Texas?
00:43:58 <Razor-X> Of course, you could use Scheme's power to turn RawIRC into a *real* IRC client, but heaven forbid what drives you to use RawIRC in the first place then.
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00:59:16 <GreyKnight> Real men write bits directly onto the ethernet cable with their penis.
01:03:59 <GreyKnight> I think he tried it and... electrocuted himself
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01:13:22 <pikhq> Now, this thing, as it stands right now, makes very efficient use of the Brainfuck memory. . .
01:14:13 <ihope> Well, I think I can call this current EagleBot... what? Version 2?
01:14:23 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
01:14:48 <ihope> Version 1 sucked, version 2 isn't as nice either, and I'll write version 3 tomorrow.
01:16:02 <pikhq> Now, if I could just implement it, I'd have something here.
01:16:56 <ihope> Memo the spec to me and I'll take a look at it...
01:17:41 <pikhq> That makes two people that have said basically the same thing. x_x
01:18:01 <ihope> Who was the other one?
01:18:13 <ihope> Did you memo it to her?
01:18:50 <ihope> Well, memo it to me, or else I'll memo it to myself!
01:19:03 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca/160055
01:19:04 * ihope holds his finger over the "enter" key as if it were a suicide threat
01:19:31 * ihope memos the URL to himself
01:20:09 <ihope> Shut up, or I'll memo it to you too!
01:21:19 * ihope memos it to EgoBot
01:22:40 <pikhq> Screw it. I'll write bits and pieces of it myself.
01:23:37 -!- ihope_ has quit (Connection timed out).
01:25:56 <GreyKnight> Someone yanked him away by the iron chain
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01:27:28 <ihope> EagleBot v2 makes a half-decent alternative.
01:27:50 * ihope waits for an answer
01:28:13 * ihope gives up and goes to bed
01:59:46 * pikhq has almost finished one stage of this compiler
02:23:08 <pikhq> Got a stage of the compiler done.
02:26:01 <pikhq> My macro language. . .
02:26:18 <pikhq> Although this is the stage *after* macros have been expanded, so. . .
02:26:25 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca/160055
02:31:24 <pikhq> Just need to expand the macros, and I'll be *done*.
02:40:47 <Razor-X> Ahoy there me hearties and pokers.
02:41:07 <pikhq> And I don't wanna do it!!!
02:42:16 <Razor-X> GreyKnight: How's been your experience with Compressed English?
02:43:29 <Razor-X> Any more digraphs you think we should add? Changes? I need to formalize some table syntax and then I have to look into the math syntax.
02:43:48 <Razor-X> I was also thinking of introducing trigraphs, but I need a more convenient system of characters that's supported by TeX.
02:44:26 <GreyKnight> The word INTERCAL currently compresses pretty poorly
02:44:51 <Razor-X> It should be condensed to 5 characters.
02:45:04 <GreyKnight> except for the +s to denote the capitals.
02:45:18 <Razor-X> Does that need to be explicit?
02:45:24 <GreyKnight> I suggest a +[...] syntax for multiple capitalizations
02:45:48 <Razor-X> I see the use in that. I agree.
02:45:58 <GreyKnight> maybe not for this example (at least when translated by a human), but there are probably situations where there'd be confusion
02:46:21 <Razor-X> I was thinking of adding the polygraph ``ough''.
02:46:55 <GreyKnight> I have most of a UTF-8 encoder written
02:47:09 <Razor-X> I need to code a LaTeX converter.
02:47:39 <Razor-X> I was also thinking of adding in ``ow'' as a digraph. Any other suggestions? Any characters you'd consider usable? (Preferrably from the LaTeX symbols list.)
02:47:46 <GreyKnight> I used my suggestion of dot-diaresis => colon, dot-macron => question mark
02:48:12 <Razor-X> I'll add that into my standard then.
02:48:18 <GreyKnight> although I don't think you ever actually endorsed that :-P
02:49:56 <GreyKnight> It occurred to me that we could reduce a/an to a single form, but there are actually some odd situations with it ("a hotel" vs "an hotel", depending). Thoughts?
02:51:15 <Razor-X> I think that it should be used.
02:51:55 <Razor-X> We can add a character to be `a', and accented it becomes ``an''.
02:54:21 <Razor-X> This may get confusing but, you know how a dot up top repeats the vowel after the consonant if a vowel is on top of a consonant?
02:54:32 <Razor-X> I suggest adding an underdot to repeat the consonant instead of the vowel.
02:55:30 <GreyKnight> I was assuming vowels never received repeats and that "consonant-vowelsign-overdot" meant "consonant consonant vowel"
02:55:54 <Razor-X> No, it meant consonant vowel vowel.
02:56:07 <GreyKnight> if you had a double vowel you'd use the floating-vowel symbol
02:56:26 <Razor-X> But how would you add the double vowel symbol to an accent?
02:57:03 <GreyKnight> I mean, for instance, "feel" becomes "f-acute, hypen-acute, l"
02:57:26 <GreyKnight> whereas "butter" becomes "b-grave,t-acute-overdot,r"
03:01:27 <Razor-X> Why not use an underdot or an ``arc'' to distinguish between repeating vowels and consonants?
03:02:22 <GreyKnight> well, the top is getting pretty cluttered, so underdot sounds best
03:03:11 <GreyKnight> so underdot repeats the consonant, then?
03:04:20 <GreyKnight> I'll add in vowel repeats later, that'll require a larger change
03:08:07 <GreyKnight> oh, how to deal with the situation where the letters of a digraph have different cases? For instance, my encoder currently converts both "Church" and "CHurch" to "μrμ", but this destroys information about the original
03:09:47 <Razor-X> Hmmm.... that's a thought I didn't think of.
03:10:31 <GreyKnight> Which only gets worse with trigraphs and beyond :-o
03:10:43 <Razor-X> Yeah, I was thinking of a general form of capitalization.
03:10:47 <GreyKnight> what about multiple capitalization operators?
03:11:58 <GreyKnight> well, some of those can be dropped if you know what the "expected" case is, but you get the idea
03:11:59 <Razor-X> I'm thinking for an n-graph, you can specify general capitalization like \+\+\\+ ... \ containing n amount of \, where a + denotes a capitalized letter.
03:12:34 <Razor-X> Rather, n+2 amount of \'s.
03:12:48 <Razor-X> Since you have the preceding and terminating \ here to denote the general capitalization form.
03:13:06 <Razor-X> Unless you want to drop the preceding one for conciseness.....
03:13:16 <Razor-X> Well, how often do you need general capitalization forms? :P.
03:13:45 <Razor-X> Unless we want to define a repetition operator which works on language constructs and letters.
03:14:00 <Razor-X> Other than the in-place cedilla.
03:14:37 <GreyKnight> I think that'd interrupt the flow in handwritten texts
03:15:54 <Razor-X> What performs the in-place repetitions then?
03:16:18 <GreyKnight> overdot and underdot (vowel and consonant, respectively)
03:18:15 <pikhq> One bit of my compiler that *is* broken.
03:18:30 <pikhq> The part about variable expansion, specifically.
03:18:49 <Razor-X> Mmmm... I think I need to at the very least add in a digraph for -sh.
03:19:30 <Razor-X> Time to take one more look at the Greek alphabet.....
03:19:42 <GreyKnight> I think I already recommended that :-P
03:20:49 <GreyKnight> though I guess it's potentially confusable with 's' in handwritten text
03:20:51 <Razor-X> Wouldn't that look too much like `s' though?
03:21:57 <Razor-X> Isn't it confusable with Epsilon?
03:22:44 <GreyKnight> the top hook and the tail should be pretty prominent
03:23:20 <GreyKnight> isn't that... what we were just talking about?
03:24:58 <GreyKnight> writing it will be an unusual experience for non-Greek non-mathematicians, though :-)
03:25:29 <Razor-X> Look, if a high schooler can come up with it, others can write in it.
03:25:44 <GreyKnight> try writing it; it's a strange experience for an English-speaker
03:25:56 <Razor-X> Trust me, it's easier to write it than TeX it.
03:26:04 <GreyKnight> it doesn't really have the same "flow" as Latin letters
03:26:23 <Razor-X> I find it lends itself to handwriting pretty well.
03:27:51 <Razor-X> You haven't tried handwriting it yet?
03:29:45 <Razor-X> It seems to work pretty well, even though it was initially a smattering of ``Oooh! TeX has this symbol!''.
03:31:27 <GreyKnight> I think I'll have this encoder have an option to use the precomposed character if one is available; composition characters are great for general-purpose stuff, but they tend to be put together badly on proportional fonts, at least in most software
03:31:50 <GreyKnight> even monospaced fonts suffer if you try to put too many in one cell
03:40:12 <Razor-X> Remember, umulat-fullstop now represents `,' .
03:41:32 <GreyKnight> last I heard you were using ring for that and umlaut (==diaresis) for colon :-\
03:42:06 <Razor-X> Oh wait, an umulaut is a diaresis?
03:42:14 <Razor-X> I may be getting the two confused then.
03:42:27 <Razor-X> Which one is the double-dot up top?
03:42:44 <GreyKnight> technically they're different, but the difference is only in the distance between the dots, so they're generally identical
03:43:07 <GreyKnight> they both consist of a horizontal pair of dots above the letter
03:43:08 <Razor-X> Then what was the downward-curve thing?
03:45:40 <Razor-X> A comma stays ring-fullstop then.
03:45:46 <GreyKnight> (at least when it's on top; I don't know if an "underbreve" is used anywhere or if it has a special name)
03:48:17 <Razor-X> What do you have down as -nt? Hyphen-ring?
03:51:28 <GreyKnight> eh? I have hyphen as the "floating vowel" character
03:52:04 <Razor-X> That was a stupid mistake on me not erasing old things.
03:52:26 <GreyKnight> you were thinking about n-tilde for NT at one point, I think
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06:34:20 <pikhq> It made sense in #gnu.
06:58:48 * GregorR wonders why he isn't in #gnu
07:01:35 <fizzie> Because it's Not Unix?
07:02:48 * pikhq starts wishing he had a Thinkpad laptop. . .
07:03:21 <pikhq> Those things are built to look like you could beat the fuck out of someone for their stupidity with one, and then demonstrate to them the smart way to do it. . . :p
07:05:05 <fizzie> My work-laptop is a Thinkpad.
07:05:46 <fizzie> The only fancy thing about it is the fingerprint reader thing.
07:06:57 <pikhq> [[Ratpoison]] Wheee.
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09:14:51 * GreyKnight requests suggestions for a good language to teach small children
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09:55:41 <Razor-X> Actually, I learned the fundamentals of programming through ``RPG Maker 95'', heh.
09:56:43 <Razor-X> Then some QBASIC, and I 'unno, it clicked somewhere.
09:57:21 <Razor-X> But I just wonder if Lisps are a bit too.... mathematical I guess....
09:57:27 <GreyKnight> possibly one with some graphics capabilities
09:57:46 <Razor-X> A lot of the abstractions are intuitive if you've taken Algebra I, but until then, yeah.
09:58:53 <GreyKnight> Mathematics and small children are my two specialties
09:59:06 <Razor-X> I've wondered what happens if someone starts with a Lisp as a first language.
09:59:31 <Razor-X> For imperative programmers, the switch from imperative to functional is mind-wracking, I wonder how it is from functional to imperative.
10:01:41 <fizzie> There's Logo, for all your turtle graphics needs.
10:02:12 <fizzie> I seem to recall that the language was somehow funny, too.
10:02:59 <Razor-X> Yeah. I learned Logo at (my old rich private) school as the first language, but I was always interested in computers beyond that.
10:03:36 <fizzie> Can't really remember specifics of the language, though. Last time I used it probably at the age of 10 or so.
10:03:54 <Razor-X> One day I and a group of friends walked in the lab and 3 sixth-graders had left their programs up. We sneakily copied them to our floppies, stole our floppies when the teacher wasn't looking and took it home to analyze.
10:04:07 <GreyKnight> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logo_programming_language
10:04:44 <Razor-X> I got the most interesting one, a concentric ring of circles in an odd shape. I learned all sorts of stuff reading the source.
10:05:48 <GreyKnight> The Logo programming language is a functional programming language. It is an easier to read adaptation and dialect of the Lisp programming language; some have called it Lisp without the parentheses.
10:06:31 <Razor-X> I don't remember much though. But yeah, there were no imperative qualities IIRC.
10:07:21 <GreyKnight> basically they swapped the parentheses for brackets :-3
10:08:31 <fizzie> The basic style of doing it ("fw X, lt Z, fw Y, ...") is rather imperative-y.
10:09:58 <Razor-X> Monads make the babies cry :(.
10:10:01 <fizzie> I don't remember having any understanding of higher-order functions or anything, back then in the Logo days.
10:11:20 <GreyKnight> well, you were probably more concerned with drawing pretty pictures :-P
10:14:14 <fizzie> Admittedly GW-BASIC (which, I think, was my first language) wasn't any better either in that regard, but I didn't really "get" Prolog. (Which was the other language for which there was an interpreter installed.)
10:15:47 <fizzie> I don't think I really get Prolog now either. My Scheme interpreter in Prolog is mostly abusing Prolog to work like any old imperative programming language.
10:21:02 <Razor-X> I haven't looked into Prolog at all.
10:21:21 <GreyKnight> Is there an existing Lisp that'd serve this purpose well, or should I throw something together?
10:21:31 <Razor-X> Higher-order functions are deceptively easy once understood, mysteries until then :P.
10:21:49 <Razor-X> Why not pick up some Scheme and X graphics stuff GreyKnight?
10:22:14 <Razor-X> MIT/GNU Scheme comes with an (very basic) implementation of X.
10:22:36 <fizzie> PLT Scheme has a GUI thing.
10:22:48 <fizzie> I personally didn't much like it, but it does.
10:22:52 <Razor-X> How is Guile? It seems messy.
10:23:12 <Razor-X> But it has the most activity of all the Schemes :(.
10:24:22 <fizzie> There's also xdraw for graphics; it's what our Scheme course used for project-work, which means that every student's project had a completely different-looking (usually: ugley) GUI. http://users.tkk.fi/~rsaikkon/software/xdraw.html
10:24:32 <Razor-X> I picked up MIT/GNU Scheme only beacuse.... it *is* the official GNU distribution.
10:24:36 <GreyKnight> He'll probably be wanting to bring stuff onto his mum's windows computer... that outta be fun :-(
10:25:25 <fizzie> PLT should be relatively windows-friendly. And it has that IDE, of sorts.
10:25:36 <Razor-X> You could probably code something for the Windows API too, I know MIT/GNU Scheme cooperates fine on it.
10:26:01 <fizzie> Razor-X; That's not something to teach to small children. They'll be scarred for life!
10:26:21 <Razor-X> I meant that GreyKnight does the WinAPI coding :P.
10:26:32 <fizzie> Oh! Well, that's better.
10:26:57 <GreyKnight> See, once a project decides that it needs to involve WinAPI, I usually come up with a million other things I'd rather be doing
10:27:18 <Razor-X> I wish there was some review site of all the Schemes.
10:27:31 <Razor-X> Trust me, X code is no fun either.
10:28:17 <GreyKnight> Maybe I should do a web-based solution and just draw with gd :-3
10:28:52 <fizzie> I would think there are GD-like libraries for on-screen drawing.
10:29:18 <GreyKnight> I could actually pull this off, I think...
10:29:40 <Razor-X> If you use Guile, someone's probably written some library to some closs-platform GUI toolkit.
10:29:52 <Razor-X> But I mean, Guile seemed messy in some places to me.
10:30:02 <fizzie> GUI toolkits are no fun; drawing lines 'n squares 'n colorful blobs is.
10:30:27 <GreyKnight> I think I'll make gkd-lisp into something less... ugly... and fold it into a nice web thingy
10:30:28 <fizzie> There's the implementation list at http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-faq-standards#implementations but it has no details, so going through it is quite a chore.
10:31:52 <Razor-X> From what I can tell, PLT Scheme, MIT/GNU Scheme, and Guile are the top 3, with Scheme48 as some forgotten-child runners-up candidate.
10:32:59 <fizzie> Scheme48 is what some people on #scheme use.
10:35:42 <Razor-X> What's your experience with the Schemes?
10:37:41 <fizzie> Well, I've been quite partial to mzscheme-the-interpreter, but much dislike the other PLT Scheme things (the web server and the DrScheme environment); Scheme48 looked interesting, but haven't used it much; and Chicken seems to be a nice Scheme compiler with quite a lot of extensionds (called "eggs" there) for things like OpenGL.
10:39:39 <Razor-X> Does MzScheme have many libraries?
10:43:20 <fizzie> Quite a lot, yes. And it's relatively painless to write them; wrote one for the PostgreSQL C library.
10:54:21 <Razor-X> Chicken is nice except for a few little gripes, for one it doesen't support i/o-ports.
10:58:00 <fizzie> I think there was a curses lib.
10:59:26 <fizzie> Don't see it right now, though.
11:10:55 <fizzie> There's a ncurses.egg for Chicken. :p
11:11:34 <Razor-X> I like Chicken the most out of them all, except for its very sparse reference manual. Still, MIT/GNU Scheme offers some great features.
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16:56:35 <marinus> For the esolang contest, should an unicode program also output the "begin <mode> <filename>" line, and if so what name should I use?
17:15:17 <RodgerTheGreat> I think that the "begin ... " segment ought to be required (it's not a lot of extra work in most cases) , and the filename can be arbitrary.
17:22:36 <pikhq> Even in Brainfuck, it wouldn't be terribly hard.
17:23:10 * pikhq wishes he had sufficient motivation to work on his macro languag
17:48:05 <ihope> Any use of the Motivator has to be caught on film.
17:48:26 <ihope> That is, any failed attempt to use the Motivator.
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18:10:36 <RodgerTheGreat> the moral of this story: Be careful what you wish for, *especially* in #Esoteric
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20:05:53 * pikhq curses even more at his damned macro system
20:21:21 * ihope clumsily makes his way through POV-Ray
20:25:23 <ihope> Can I give the thing some sort of ambient lighting or background color or something?
20:27:33 <ihope> Can I give this stuff some background color other than black?
20:30:42 <ihope> It's hard to see a black sphere on a black background.
20:32:01 <ihope> How do I do that? :-P
20:32:30 <GreyKnight> sphere { <x, y, z>, r pigment { rgb <r, g, b> } }
20:35:35 <GreyKnight> also, there's the #default directive to change the default from black:
20:36:00 <GreyKnight> basically what I'm saying here is: RTFM :-3
20:36:05 <fizzie> There are also some material editors for pov-ray.
20:37:01 <fizzie> If one likes point-and-clicking gradients more than entering numeric RGB values.
20:37:17 <fizzie> Real Men write code to generate their .pov files. :p
20:47:18 <Razor-X> Or they write INTERCAL code that compiles to backwards FORTRAN code.
20:48:15 <ihope> Or they write Malbolge code.
20:49:22 <Razor-X> Good think there aren't many real men out there.
20:49:30 <Razor-X> THey do all of this while eating Haggis!
20:50:30 <GreyKnight> that's for girly-boys who are trying to prove themselves to be real men
20:51:30 <ihope> How do real men prove themselves to be real men?
20:51:35 <kipple_> yeah. those Haggis eaters even wear skirts. How girly is that?
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20:53:06 <ihope> Everybody just knows that they're real?
20:53:14 <GreyKnight> If you can look at him without your face spontaneously breaking, he's a girly-boy
20:53:33 <pikhq> ihope: The real men are willing to fight Chuck Norris. :p
20:53:36 <Razor-X> We know they exist, somewhere.
20:53:59 <GreyKnight> http://greyfire.org/picture_library/kilt3.jpg \o/
20:54:00 <ihope> pikhq: so Chuck Norris is not a real man, or Chuck Norris is willing to fight himself?
20:54:06 <kipple_> oh my, would you happen to be Scottish, GreyKnight?
20:54:13 <pikhq> ihope: Damn right, Chuck Norris is willing to fight himself.
20:54:22 <pikhq> Of course, he's one step above a real man, so. . .
20:54:30 <GreyKnight> Irish, but we originally (mists of time) come from Scotland
20:54:34 <Razor-X> Wooh. Chicken allows you to do low level Scheme.
20:54:47 <ihope> (You must all be real men, except GregorR and maybe others, because I can't look at any of you.)
20:54:52 <GreyKnight> Which is just as well, because the Irish regional tartans are crap :-(
20:55:05 <pikhq> ihope: The only reason you can't look at us is distance.
20:55:18 <GreyKnight> Especially the Antrim one (which is what I would get). It's pretty poor.
20:55:28 <pikhq> If you look at us, and your face doesn't break, then we're not real men.
20:55:41 * pikhq can trace his family back to England. . .
20:55:54 <Razor-X> I can trace my family back to India.
20:55:57 * Razor-X thinks back one generation.
20:56:12 <fizzie> I think there is a picture (or a couple) of /me in the interweb, so I'm rather lookable in a technical sense.
20:56:36 * pikhq thinks back to pre-Revolutionary War America. . .
20:57:13 <Razor-X> Well, somewhere along the line one of my ancestors slept with a French guy, but whatever.
20:57:24 <Razor-X> (Hence my French last name.)
20:57:45 <Razor-X> I know. It's a horrible language.
20:57:55 * pikhq has a very, very British last name. . .
20:58:00 <pikhq> Worcester. Wheee. . .
20:58:21 <Razor-X> Awww. I love the British last names that end with -bury.
20:58:26 <Razor-X> They sound so.... British.
20:58:56 <pikhq> My last name comes from a bloody city in England. 'Tis quite British to me. :p
21:00:17 <Razor-X> I wonder why British last names don't end with -sex :(.
21:00:19 <fizzie> My last name is "Kallasjoki", which I guess is about as far as you can get from being British, without using a different script.
21:00:35 <Razor-X> If you can name a city with that, why not a person's last name?
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21:04:16 <Razor-X> Stop making excuses for Middlesex.
21:04:19 <GreyKnight> {middle,es,sus}sex from {middle,east,south} seaxe (Saxons)
21:04:57 <Razor-X> So, Sexual would mean ``Regarding the Saxons'' ?
21:05:27 <GreyKnight> Careful! That conclusion's slippery, don't jump on it!
21:05:30 <kipple_> Wessex too (west), but is there a Nossex? ;)
21:06:13 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> GreyKnight: But the scots originally came from Ireland. So if you're Irish but originally came from Scotland, then you're Irish but originally-originally came from Ireland :P
21:06:47 <ihope> susessex is quite asplodey indeed.
21:07:12 <Razor-X> Well, looking at the archaic notation for vectors in physics, this way is more entertaining and just as obfuscating.
21:09:18 <GreyKnight> You think archaic vector notations are strange? Look at tensors. Your head will asplode.
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21:38:48 <pikhq> I'm trying to figure out a regexpy way of replacing "foo" with "$foo".
21:38:51 <ihope> Nobody's in ##quantum.
21:38:57 <ihope> pikhq: s/foo/$foo/?
21:39:04 <ihope> I had a quantum question...
21:39:11 <pikhq> ihope: That doesn't work quite so well in Tcl regexps.
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21:39:27 <ihope> s/foo/\%foo/, then?
21:40:18 <pikhq> regsub {regexp to be matched} {string to do substitution in} {what to replace with}
21:42:40 <ihope> I think Heisenberg has me.
21:42:43 <pikhq> Maybe I should just call sed. :p
21:44:56 <ihope> "A just policy is one which you would accept without knowing which side of it you'd be on."
21:45:07 <ihope> Taxes are unjust, then.
21:45:59 <ihope> Not to say that they aren't...
21:46:05 <GreyKnight> tax money doesn't just disappear into the ether, though
21:46:20 <GreyKnight> they're supposed to be used to provide useful national services and whatnot
21:46:43 <GreyKnight> I disturbs me that I had to include "supposed to" on that
21:58:32 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
21:58:34 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
21:59:36 <EgoBot> 76 +++++++++++[>+++>++++++++++>><<<<-]>.>+++.++++.------------.+++++.---------. [402]
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22:55:53 <ihope_> What do you want him for?
22:57:40 <Razor-X> I need to know what RawIRC can (or more aptly, cannot) do.
22:59:11 <ihope_> I think RawIRC = TCP client + IRC syntax highlighting + display of undisplayable characters + entry of untypable characters.
23:00:30 <ihope_> And remember that MemoServ + pastebin = email :-)
23:00:54 <ihope_> Except that everyone can see your email.
23:01:13 <Razor-X> Everyone can see Pastebin too.
23:01:36 <ihope_> And that's why everyone can see your email.
23:01:41 <ihope_> You have to stick it in a pastebin.
23:04:35 <pikhq> I've got the macro system working.
23:05:03 <ihope_> So email GregorR your question :-)
23:05:12 * pikhq much abused Tcl to do so
23:06:33 * ihope_ kisses Gr--wait, what?
23:07:04 <GregorR> telnet + coloring + macros + auto-ping-pong + auto-jon/auto-identify
23:07:22 <GregorR> It does not give you typability of untypable characters, that's provided by ^(whatever) already
23:07:32 <GregorR> Oh, plus it carries the line you're typing.
23:07:53 <ihope_> So you can press control-C and it'll just type that character?
23:08:06 <GregorR> ^A will give you \1 though
23:08:15 <ihope_> That means itstehsuckulose
23:10:40 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/rawirc.png
23:10:50 <ihope_> What happens if some guy on IRC says ANSI terminal control codes?
23:11:06 <GregorR> ihope_: Anything unprintable is converted to a .
23:11:24 <ihope_> Are the dots color-coded or anything?
23:12:09 <ihope_> That means it sucks random things and you fail at life.
23:12:46 <Razor-X> Does it still do the annoying line echoing?
23:13:48 <ihope_> GregorR loses, but that doesn't mean you win.
23:15:04 <Razor-X> I'll bet he's furiously coding the feature to get rid of nonprintable characters right now.
23:15:22 <Razor-X> Let's spam him with ASCII control characters!
23:15:24 * pikhq is victorious, because he has his macro system working
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23:40:05 * pikhq has combined the two-stage compiling thing into a single stage. :D
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23:49:16 <ihope_> "." isn't a quit message!
00:01:30 <GregorR> It's a stingray zomg its gonna kill the crocodile hunter
00:02:14 <ihope_> And it's going to cause bad humor all over the internets! OH NOEZ!
00:06:50 <pikhq> *Almost* got it working.
00:06:58 <pikhq> Got an issue with the regexps.
00:07:25 <pikhq> Which seem to hate me.
00:08:14 <Razor-X> Use them well, and they will love you. Use them poorly and your skin will be LASHED OFF.
00:08:31 * pikhq is getting his skin *lashed off*.
00:08:42 <ihope_> I think I won't use regexes at all, then.
00:08:44 <Razor-X> I very rarely get regexps wrong. Dunno why.
00:08:51 <pikhq> Got the regexp matching things I don't want in my macro engine. . .
00:09:46 <Razor-X> Regexps is by far my favorite parsing method.
00:09:55 <pikhq> In retrospect, the rough equivalent of s/$varname/\$$varname/ was probably a bad idea.
00:10:12 <pikhq> Especially when you've got a variable named "y" in your macro called "copy".
00:13:28 <pikhq> Except for that little bug in the macro parsing proc, this thing seems to be solid. . .
00:35:24 <pikhq> Now it's more like s/ $varname / \$$varname / s/ $varname/n/ \$$varname/n/
00:35:35 <pikhq> Kludgish? Yeah. Does it work? :)
00:38:20 <fizzie> /\b$varname\b/ is what I'd use.
00:39:15 <pikhq> If it were sed's regexp syntax, then I'd do just that.
00:39:38 <pikhq> Of course, if I knew regexps, I'd do something less kludgish, so. . .
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00:42:22 <fizzie> If you're matching end-of-line in the second one, it should probably be something like "s/ $varname$/ \$$varname/", since '$' is the zero-width "matches at end of line" thing.
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00:42:44 * ihope_ almost types NetHaskell
00:42:46 <fizzie> Of course if you're not using regexps to do the matching, it doesn't much matter. :p
00:42:59 <ihope_> NetHaskell: the best language for programming roguelikes.
00:44:07 <ihope_> NetHack + Haskell = NetHaskell.
00:44:22 <Razor-X> Someone ported Nethack to Haskell?
00:44:29 <fizzie> 10:31:08 <poing> i have more pedestrian aims, like writing nethack in haskell ;P
00:44:34 <fizzie> Says Google on the subject.
00:45:05 <fizzie> (On #haskell in Freenode. Or is that ##?)
00:45:07 * ihope_ ponders the fact that hitting tab puts "GregorR: " in his box thingy
00:45:36 * ihope_ wonders what he's doing in #steve-irwin and #stingray
00:45:54 <ihope_> Or am I not in either of those?
01:14:02 * pikhq finally has stuff working. . .
01:15:17 <pikhq> Unfortunately, my standard macros package is broken.
01:15:42 <Razor-X> T3h b0rb, t3h b0rk, t3h b0rk, b0rk b0rk!
01:16:36 <pikhq> Should I go ahead and make a simple spec to go with the simple compiler?
01:17:27 * pikhq loves his very, very simple way of getting the code parsed. . .
01:17:56 <pikhq> I just set up a Tcl slave interpreter, remove it's builtin commands, and replace them with aliases that compile the macro language's commands.
01:18:03 <pikhq> Let Tcl parse for me.
01:19:00 <ihope_> Thubi might be really good for writing parsers.
01:25:15 <pikhq> http://nickv111.is-a-geek.com:8080/~pikhq/bfm.tar.bz2
01:29:21 <pikhq> Thoughts? Comments? "You're a fucking idiot"?
01:56:29 * pikhq is going to take a guess that nobody has looked yet
02:01:45 <pikhq> Care to explain? :p
02:02:10 <Razor-X> Hmmm... I wonder what control characters GregorR used.
02:02:28 * pikhq is of the opinion that it kicks ass, but. . .
02:03:27 <pikhq> If nothing else, it makes things nicer because one can operate on variables instead of locations in memory.
02:08:28 <pikhq> Someday, when I'm bored enough, I am going to create *and test* a standard BFM library. . .
02:09:41 <Razor-X> Is there some sort of handy control character to find out the number of lines/columns in your terminal?
02:12:03 <Razor-X> I'll use Ncurses for portability.
02:15:23 <deltab> you can move the cursor into the bottom right corner, then use Cursor Position Report to find out where it is
02:20:33 <Razor-X> Is there a character to move it to the bottom right corner?
02:31:15 <deltab> a character, no, but there is a control sequence
02:31:48 * deltab pulls out a copy of ECMA-48
02:33:11 <deltab> CUP with suitably large values
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04:06:30 <pikhq> http://nickv111.is-a-geek.com:8080/~pikhq/bfm.tar.bz2 Shameless plugging. Wheee.
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04:59:05 <Razor-X> I wonder if anyone tried to use multiple channels with RawIRC.
05:34:06 <Razor-X> 'Tis cool. Chicken has low-level constructs too.
05:34:22 <Razor-X> ...Although I can't really find a use for a pointer in Scheme, except in a BF interpreter.
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08:25:27 <Razor-X> So if you get a ``NOTICE AUTH :*** Found your hostname, welcome back'' from an IRC server, is everything after ``NOTICE '' considered the parameter?
08:26:54 <fizzie> The parameters are separated by spaces, except that the last parameter may be prefixed by a ":", and then it runs to the end of line.
08:27:08 <fizzie> So in your example there are two parameters, "AUTH" and "*** Found ...".
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11:32:17 <ihope_> ifndef_GREGOR_H: pingities pingities
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15:05:27 <Ramza> Please welcome me to the channel.
15:06:09 <Ramza> What processing time.
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16:46:36 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon cat reload
16:46:38 <EgoBot> 2 EgoBot: daemon EgoBot reload
16:46:53 <GregorR-W> !EgoBot will probably screw this up.
16:46:56 * EgoBot will probably screw this up.
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16:54:56 <GregorR-W> Right, this beauuuuuuuuutiful stingray is usually totally harmless to humans.
16:55:04 <GregorR-W> But if provoked, its sting can be fatal!
16:55:09 <GregorR-W> So I'm going to poke it with a stick!
16:55:16 <GregorR-W> HEY STINGRAY! HEEEEEEEEEY STI--AUGGGH
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17:17:04 <GregorR-W> Yeah, runlevel randomly and unpredictably dropping, woooh
17:25:07 * pikhq continues making sweet love to BFM
17:25:43 * GregorR-W continues very consciously averting his eyes.
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18:58:41 <EgoBot> <CTCP>ACTION cannot write checkpoint image
19:13:48 <pikhq> gregor$ rm -rf ~/pron
19:14:54 <pikhq> If that doesn't work, then I'll accuse you of being a prude.
19:17:14 <GregorR-W> Pff, that directory doesn't exist.
19:19:22 <pikhq> if {![file exist ~/pron]} {set Gregor $prude}
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19:32:26 <GregorR-W> So wait, being able to spell == prude? :P
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23:00:05 <pikhq> GregorR-W: Yes, spelling ability equates to prudeness.
23:09:44 <GregorR-W> Your female parent or guardian is obese to the degree that it is necessary for her to wear clothing as much as five sizes larger than the average for her height, age and gender categories!
23:09:49 <GregorR-W> Oooooooooooooooooooooh, what now bizzich
23:10:25 <pikhq> My female *stepparent* is, however.
23:10:58 <pikhq> She's not my guardian, she's a person that I want to hit over the head with a fuckin' baseball bat.
23:11:06 * pikhq lives with his biological mother. . .
23:12:51 <ihope> So a stepparent is a parent's spouse who is not a parent?
23:13:31 <pikhq> Yeah, that's normally what it means. . .
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23:14:46 <GregorR-W> Generally it also implies that the marriage happened before the child was 18.
23:16:28 <ihope> What if your parents are married, then your mother dies and your father gets married, then your father dies and your stepmother gets married?
23:16:59 <pikhq> Then she's still your stepmother, I believe. . .
23:17:22 <pikhq> She is also just the same as your actual parent towards the law.
23:17:31 <ihope> What about the person your stepmother married?
23:17:40 <ihope> Is he your stepfather, or your stepstepfather, or what?
23:17:44 <pikhq> Stepfather, I *think*.
23:18:12 * pikhq votes for a much less arbitrary way of stating family relationships
23:18:24 <pikhq> Maybe a simple GED file? :p
23:19:04 <ihope> Nah, we need notation.
23:19:20 <pikhq> A GED file *is* notation. . .
23:19:30 <pikhq> It's quite nonvague.
23:19:42 <pikhq> In fact, it's sufficient for plotting a full family tree.
23:20:11 <pikhq> It's sufficient for the fuckin' *Mormons* and their polygamy. I *think* it can handle such relatively simple relationship issue. :p
23:21:20 <ihope> F means father, M means mother, S means last spouse, C means last child.
23:21:33 <ihope> PS is second-to-last spouse, PPS is third-to-last spouse, etc.
23:21:40 <ihope> Likewise for PC, PPC, etc.
23:22:07 <pikhq> You've come up with a compressed form of GED, I believe.
23:22:14 <ihope> Then E is "me" or something.
23:22:39 <GregorR-W> That way you can have more children without rearranging the whole F'ing thing.
23:22:40 <ihope> So I'm E, my dad is FE, his dad is FFE...
23:23:01 <ihope> Okay. C means first child, but S is still last spouse?
23:23:21 <ihope> Okay, they're both first.
23:23:29 <ihope> Then I is a conditional.
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23:23:55 <pikhq> Trying to make a Turing complete notation for family relations?
23:24:08 <ihope> ICE12 means "if I have a child, then 1, else 2".
23:24:25 <ihope> And no, this notation won't support recursion.
23:24:52 <ihope> So I123 means if 1 exists then 2 else 3.
23:25:16 <ihope> If I have a father, then me, else _?
23:25:26 <pikhq> Supposed to represent null.
23:25:36 <pikhq> "If I have a father, then me, else nothing."
23:28:14 <ihope> But couldn't we call it N?
23:28:36 <pikhq> Stating, simply, that one cannot exist without a father.
23:28:54 <pikhq> I assume the arguments for this could be grouped to allow for non-vagueness?
23:29:06 <pikhq> I(FE,ME)EN, for example?
23:29:54 <ihope> If I have a mother and a father then me else nothing?
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23:30:40 <ihope> If I have if-I-have-a-father-then-my-mother-else-nothing then me else nothing.
23:33:52 <ihope> It has an expressiveness corresponding to the ordinal number omega!
23:39:41 <pikhq> macro foo {bar baz} {while baz {add bar 1;subtract baz 1}};@ foo 1;@ bar 0;add foo 50;add bar 20;foo foo bar
23:40:59 <pikhq> . . . Is equivalent to: >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<++++++++++++++++++++[>+<-]
23:43:00 <pikhq> Terrible coding, I admit. It *does* work, though.
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00:15:52 * ihope edits the main page to say "This page is protected from all further edits, and I win"
00:27:31 <Razor-X> I've seen foo, bar, and baz, but what if you need more?
00:27:53 <ihope> Quux, quuux, quuuux...
00:28:03 <ihope> If you need uncountably many, you're on your own.
00:28:17 <Razor-X> Maybe we should go the car/cdr route.
00:28:29 <Razor-X> foz, foaz, faoz, faaoz, baoz.
00:28:47 <ihope> Qaddaddaddaaaddaddax?
00:29:20 <pikhq> [[Metasyntatic variables]] should have the RFC's list on i.t
00:32:09 <Razor-X> In order to name my generic variables, I either use the GNU scheme (foo, bar, baz) or I use My Scheme (TM) (blah, bleh, blargh).
00:32:33 <Razor-X> It all kinda depends on my mood.
00:33:43 <Razor-X> I use meh, nuh, feh, and blargeth, if I need to go so far.
00:34:50 <GreyKnight> then blargetheth, blargethetheth, etc? ;-)
00:34:51 <pikhq> Actually, (foo, bar, baz) are from the RFC. . .
00:35:06 <Razor-X> There's a whole bunch of them.
00:35:26 <GreyKnight> foobarbaz predate that RFC as well. Their origins are lost in the mists of time, really
00:35:45 <pikhq> Argh. Can't find the RFC ATM, but I can find one describing the etymology.
00:36:11 <pikhq> Never mind. That one also contains the list.
00:36:12 <pikhq> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3092
00:36:41 <Razor-X> Do I get an ABNF on Metasyntactic Variables?
00:37:44 <pikhq> Wikipedia states that it's got the list, but the RFC doesn't.
00:37:56 <pikhq> Never mind. It does have the list.
00:38:14 <pikhq> r, baz, qux, quux, corge, grault, garply, waldo, fred, plugh, xyzzy, thud
00:38:20 <pikhq> foo, bar, baz, qux, quux, corge, grault, garply, waldo, fred, plugh, xyzzy, thud
00:39:13 <Razor-X> variable = "foo" / "bar" / "baz" / "b" 1*("a"/"o) ("z"/"r)
00:39:21 <Razor-X> That's what I propose the ABNF definition be.
00:41:14 <Razor-X> Of course, that'll get you a variable name that's sure to be the Drunken Coder's favorite: ``booz''.
00:42:23 <pikhq> variable = "foo" / "bar" / "baz" / "qux" / "quux" / "corge" / "grault" / "garply" / "waldo" / "fred" / "plugh" / "xyzzy" / "thud"/ "b" 1*("a"/"o) ("z"/"r)
00:42:35 <pikhq> RFC compliance is important. :p
00:43:19 <Razor-X> Can I propose a new RFC then?
00:44:27 <pikhq> Just wait til April 1st.
00:44:41 <Razor-X> But it's a real RFC proposal!
00:44:58 <Razor-X> Don't we all want standardized metasyntactic variables in our code?
00:45:17 <pikhq> Well, the current RFC was on April 1st, so. . .
00:47:34 <Razor-X> I can't believe the Scheme standard doesen't have a fold-* function.
00:55:19 <pikhq> And faobaofaobaz isn't long?
00:57:15 <ihope> Razor-X: a what function?
01:01:41 <ihope> Now why the heck is this link, which is simply blue text, a JPEG image rather than actual text?
01:02:50 <GreyKnight> I reckon somebody couldn't figure out how to set the :active (etc) colours to blue
01:02:58 <GreyKnight> so they made it an image so's it'd stay blue
01:03:20 <pikhq> And figure that "Oh, it looks just the same, anyways."
01:03:35 <ihope> Nobody will notice the JPEG artifacts.
01:03:55 <Razor-X> You've never used fold functions before?
01:04:16 <Razor-X> You and your imperial madness :O
01:04:18 <ihope> foldr, foldl, and the like.
01:04:38 <Razor-X> I remember reading about fold functions the first time and thinking ``Why the heck will I ever need this?!'' :P.
01:04:47 <ihope> Are those the folds you're talking about, or is there another type of fold function?
01:04:56 <Razor-X> Nope. foldr, foldl, and the like.
01:05:03 <Razor-X> Time to make my own fold-right function.
01:05:47 <ihope> How's Scheme's conditional stuff work?
01:06:22 <Razor-X> The R5RS has no pattern matching in it, if that's what you mean. But Chicken has an add-in for pattern matching.
01:06:36 <Razor-X> Although not nearly as elegant as Haskell or OCaML's versions.
01:07:10 <ihope> (defun foldr (f b l) (cond ((null l) b) (something (f (car l) (foldr f b (cdr l)))))) <- my little foldr function
01:07:48 <Razor-X> Although why you're using (cond) is anyone's guess :P.
01:08:35 <Razor-X> Even still, bleh. Use (if) instead.
01:09:40 <ihope> (defun foldr (f b l) (if (null l) b (f (car l) (foldr f b (cdr l)))))?
01:09:44 <GreyKnight> funny, just a few days ago you made the opposite recommendation to me :-P
01:12:08 <Razor-X> I made that reccomendation because I'm not being a Scheme parser here :P.
01:17:50 <Razor-X> Actually, the full function looks like:
01:18:01 <Razor-X> (define (fold-right function initial list) (if (null? list) (function initial initial) (if (null? (cdr list)) (function initial (car list)) (fold-right function (function initial (car list)) (cdr list)))))
01:19:54 <Razor-X> Although I can contract that definition a bit.
01:20:36 <ihope> (function initial initial)?
01:20:46 <ihope> That... doesn't really make sense.
01:21:07 <Razor-X> Changed for that reason, and the obvious redundancy in my code :P.
01:21:58 <Razor-X> Yay. Now it'll be trivial to parse each IRC message.
01:22:22 <ihope> Oh... does (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (x y))) work in Scheme?
01:23:58 <Razor-X> It should. Let me check to double-check.
01:24:16 <ihope> #do eval (((lambda (x) (lambda (y) (x y))) car) '(1 2 3))
01:24:26 * ihope pokes certain people
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01:25:02 <Razor-X> Oh wait. It wouldn't work. But let me check in case.
01:25:18 <ihope> So why doesn't it work?
01:25:57 <ihope> Razor-X: did it start working?
01:25:59 <ihope> #do eval (((lambda (x) (lambda (y) (x y))) car) '(1 2 3))
01:26:00 <Razor-X> Mistype :D (lesson learned: copy and paste if possible).
01:26:02 <GreyKnight> #! Error: (@)(1124) FIRST ITEM IS NOT A SYMBOL OR LAMBDA (''((LAMBDA (X) (LAMBDA (Y) (X Y))) CAR)')
01:26:25 <Razor-X> Yeah, it should work. I misread and mistyped.
01:26:37 <Razor-X> It should work and it does work.
01:26:48 <ihope> @do eval (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (x y)))
01:26:53 <GreyKnight> using the same as what ihope just eval'd ?
01:26:58 <Razor-X> Look, GreyKnight doesen't use Scheme.
01:27:04 <Razor-X> He uses his odd not-even-a-Lisp Lisp.
01:27:15 <ihope> #do eval (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (x y)))
01:27:17 <GreyKnight> #> #<CLOSURE :LAMBDA (X) (LAMBDA (Y) (X Y))>
01:27:23 <ihope> #do eval ((lambda (x) (lambda (y) (x y))) cdr)
01:27:41 <GreyKnight> It still has lambdas, though, so I'm interested in where the error arrives
01:28:34 <ihope> Something tells me it's in the replacing of the parameters in the result with the things passed in.
01:29:25 <GreyKnight> I'm going to rewrite it all from scratch at some point
01:31:30 <Razor-X> Time to do my daily vocabulary.
01:32:38 <ihope> A Japanese thing resembling a sentence?
01:32:56 <GreyKnight> Bonus points if that rendered correctly in your client
01:33:02 <Razor-X> No bonus points here then.
01:33:17 <ihope> It says "lorimer"?
01:33:34 <GreyKnight> with a slashed-circle over each letter
01:33:46 <ihope> How'd you manage that?
01:34:36 <GreyKnight> combining characters aren't well-known for their wide support base :-/
01:36:45 <fizzie> Heh; my terminal renders all the characters as squares, while my browser just uses non-combining slashed-circles after each letter.
01:37:10 <ihope> http://i2.tinypic.com/2zsya6o.png
01:37:38 <fizzie> "COMBINING ENCLOSING CIRCLE BACKSLASH", it seems.
01:38:28 <ihope> Maybe it's meant to circle two letters at once :-P
01:38:38 <fizzie> Yay, my Prolog-Scheme still works, and hasn't bit-rotted away.
01:38:57 <ihope> Eh, I guess my client plain old doesn't like it.
01:40:01 <GreyKnight> Here's xterm making an effort: http://greyfire.org/picture_library/combining.png
01:40:15 <GreyKnight> ihope: They notoriously don't work well with proportional fonts
01:41:43 <fizzie> The circle in firefox looks at least something that might fit a character well: http://zem.fi/~fis/tmp.png
01:41:52 <fizzie> It just doesn't want to combine.
01:43:04 <GreyKnight> yes, that's the other common problem with them :-P
01:43:17 <ihope> ⃠ <- okay, there it is
02:01:44 <fizzie> |: (let* ((factors (iota 2 n))
02:01:44 <fizzie> |: (x (apply amb factors))
02:01:44 <fizzie> |: (y (apply amb factors)))
02:05:00 <ihope> \x -> x (\x y z -> x z (y z)) (\x y -> x)
02:05:04 <ihope> Something like that :-P
02:06:16 <fizzie> The usual; (define (iota start end) (if (<= start end) (cons start (iota (+ start 1) end)) '()))
02:08:20 * pikhq forces BFM down everyone's throats
02:08:21 <fizzie> I'm not sure _how_ usual that is, actually, but it's not too rare: "Write iota as a LISP function that takes a positive integer as an argument and returns a list of the numbers between 1 and that integer." is a question in http://www.csee.umbc.edu/331/fall00/exams/finalreview.shtml (says Google).
02:09:57 <fizzie> Heh, 'amb' is probably the builtin that has the simplest implementation.
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02:48:17 * pikhq creates stdcons.bfm. . .
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02:55:38 <pikhq> A set of macros containing the most efficient two-cell way of setting a constant.
02:56:35 <pikhq> And I'm bored with that now.
02:56:44 <pikhq> I'll do a few more constants later.
02:57:07 <GreyKnight> You managed to stay on one task for a whole 8 minutes there! ;-)
02:57:37 <pikhq> Hey, you try writing out all constants in BF. . .
03:02:17 <pikhq> http://xkcd.com/c10.html
03:08:04 <pikhq> http://xkcd.com/c30.html
03:14:54 <pikhq> A Snapple would be an apple made of tin.
03:15:55 <pikhq> Thinking of a different comic.
03:16:12 <pikhq> Party of four. There are only three people, who are full.
03:17:53 <pikhq> There *were* presumably four hungry people waiting to get into the restaurant. . .
03:18:01 <pikhq> But now, there are three full people.
03:18:33 <GregorR> Their poor, poor fourth friend.
03:24:21 <pikhq> http://xkcd.com/c74.html
03:35:23 <pikhq> http://xkcd.com/c114.html
03:47:25 <Razor-X> The differences between AP Computer Science A and AP Computer Science AB are very difficult!
03:47:32 <Razor-X> You will have to know big-O notation for the latter! :O
03:47:50 <Razor-X> You must also be familiar with... *GASP* exceptions!
03:48:13 * pikhq wishes he bothered figuring out big-O notation. . .
03:48:13 <Razor-X> EXCEPTIONS?! NO! WHAT IS THIS WORLD COMING TO?!?!?!?!?!?!
03:49:02 <Razor-X> I must also be familiar with recursion. Scary.
03:49:14 <Razor-X> Well... I guess it is scary for someone who hasn't programmed in a functional language before, haha.
03:50:52 <Razor-X> I also can't understand why the AP book even points out that you need to know how to cast..... is that really a difficult concept?
03:52:35 <Razor-X> They use the example of storing a double in an integer. That's just pathetic.
03:52:51 <pikhq> The only bit I don't know is big-O notation, and that's only because I haven't needed it.
03:52:55 <Razor-X> I'd understand if you store a double in a float, and it's truncated or something, but a double in an integer? What hell?
03:53:44 <Razor-X> They should point out to the students that they should be happy that casting exists, and you're not using C.
03:55:26 <pikhq> It'd be *understandable* to not know what casting is. . . *If* you had only dealt with weakly typed languages, and never needed it before.
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03:57:04 <Razor-X> Even Ruby casts... although in an odd way.
03:57:20 <Razor-X> I, personally, haven't programmed in a language with implicit casting.
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03:58:02 <Razor-X> Does TCL have implicit casting?
03:58:07 <pikhq> There is a single datatype: the string.
03:58:12 <pikhq> So yeah, it's implicit casting.
03:58:22 <Razor-X> That would make me feel weird :P.
03:58:42 <Razor-X> Even in Scheme you cast with something like (string->list) .
04:00:37 <Razor-X> Chicken is great. You can even make pointers if you wanted to.
04:05:04 <Razor-X> One thing I was thinking was that, if I learned Java, I could help out with Classpath.
04:05:16 <Razor-X> (Assuming I could ever get the bloody thing to compile.)
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07:34:31 <Razor-X> Stacks and queues are ``advanced'' data structures.
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07:36:24 <Razor-X> I'd hesitantly call the binary tree an advanced data structure, but I accept it. Still.... stacks?
07:36:42 <GregorR> I'd put a binary tree JUST under the advanced line.
07:36:55 <GregorR> To be advanced, it has to either not have a name, or have a name that not every programmer knows ;)
07:37:25 <Razor-X> The AP book also devotes 3 pages to teaching Quicksort (more commonly known as ``bubble sort'').
07:37:36 <Razor-X> Hooray, you spent 3 pages explaining to me a sort I devised when I was 9 years old!
07:38:02 <fizzie> You mean they really do call bubble sort Quicksort there?
07:38:22 <GregorR> Um, I've heard the phrase quicksort FAR more commonly than bubble sort.
07:38:32 <Arrogant> I've never heard of bubble sort.
07:38:41 <fizzie> Bubble sort is the canonical O(n^2) sort.
07:38:48 <Razor-X> I've heard bubble sort a lot more often.
07:39:22 <GregorR> I was just about to say - they're not quite the same.
07:39:26 <GregorR> They're fairly similar though.
07:40:40 <Razor-X> Oh. Hmmm, Quicksort is a bit more advanced.
07:40:52 <fizzie> Well, they have the same worst-case time complexity and all. Oh, and the results are rather similar.
07:41:05 <Razor-X> But seriously... that's meant for the advanced test only.
07:41:20 <Razor-X> Come *on*. Quicksort is ``advanced'' ?
07:41:47 <Razor-X> Ugggh. No wonder the new batch of CS students in California are mindless zombies who only work for the smell of a paycheck.
07:41:54 <fizzie> Well, if you consider stacks advanced data structures...
07:42:12 <ivan`> maybe if CS classes actually taught anything practical
07:42:14 <Arrogant> It's too bad not everyone's a genius-man like you, Razor-X
07:42:26 <Razor-X> I was introduced to BF by someone completely non-technical, actually.
07:42:37 <Razor-X> She seemed quite comfortable with the notion of a stack, without ever programming.
07:43:42 <fizzie> Most people who've seen a physical stack of anything do inherently understand the concept of "you can put things on the top and also remove them".
07:44:33 <GregorR> Brits understand queues better than Americans ;)
07:44:47 <fizzie> Compared to that, quicksort's definitely non-trivial. Besides, the implementations might be considerably tricky; look at http://kotisivu.mtv3.fi/quux/qsort.html for example.
07:45:02 <Razor-X> Well, remember, they're not asking for a *good* implementation.
07:45:07 <Arrogant> Divide-and-conquer is trivial, really.
07:45:28 <Razor-X> The greatest part about the test seems that, they ask you to know what O(*) means, but not programming using that information.
07:45:34 <Arrogant> If you understand recursion well enough
07:46:51 <Razor-X> I think an introductory book on Java and the first 3 chapters of SICP are more valuable for this test than any other book.
07:48:01 <Razor-X> Heck, the first 3 chapters of SICP introduce concepts a lot more difficult than the entire test.
07:49:05 <Arrogant> Oh, hey, I was reading that SICP thing once.
07:49:36 <Razor-X> Actually, the book I bought to learn Java (Java in a Nutshell) is pretty useful.
07:49:45 <Razor-X> Then again, it's aimed for the experienced programmer so.....
07:50:07 <fizzie> Our university bookshop thing was selling SICPs for 5 EUR/book (since we don't teach Scheme here any more); a friend bought 10 of them. To spread the word.
07:50:11 <Razor-X> If this is AP Computer Science, it seems SICP is like a gold mine for the beginner programmer.
07:50:57 <Arrogant> I was reading another book on Scheme...
07:51:38 <Razor-X> I used one book also by MIT Press that was a lot faster/better, and also supplemented that with Learn Scheme in Fixnum Days for the practical experience.
07:52:07 <Razor-X> But then again, I had already banged my head raw with Common Lisp before, so it wasn't too difficult for me.
07:52:42 <Razor-X> More like ``Oh ugggh, Common Lisp.''
07:53:11 <Razor-X> CL's motto should be: ``We'll give you a feature, even if we have to defile your child for it!''
07:53:14 <fizzie> The people who try to teach us that "lambda" is simply syntactic sugar for "local", which is their own, completely non-standard and unnecessary thing.
07:54:08 <fizzie> "As discussed in the introduction, a lambda-expression is just a short-hand for a local-expression."
07:54:20 <fizzie> My R5RS says nothing about any "local"s. Bleh.
07:54:37 <Razor-X> Isn't R6RS coming out shortly?
07:54:46 <Razor-X> Or is that like LaTeX 3's ``shortly'' ?
07:55:29 <Arrogant> fizzie, yeah, HtDP has a "learning language" version of Scheme, which was pretty annoying.
07:55:33 <fizzie> I'd guess sooner than LaTeX 3, but wouldn't hold my breath. (I don't think I _could_ hold my breath for more than a minute or so anyway.)
07:55:36 <Arrogant> Considering Scheme is already plenty simple.
07:56:57 <fizzie> Haven't been following R6RS progress since I forgot to re-join #scheme.
07:56:58 <Razor-X> It seems simple to me now, but I remember myself (attempting to) learn(ing) Common Lisp.
07:57:17 <Razor-X> That was the stupidest I've ever felt in my life :D.
07:57:37 <fizzie> There's a status report from June 2006, so I guess they're still at least doing something.
07:57:57 <fizzie> "We intend to deliver a draft R6RS to the Steering Committee by September 1, 2006."
07:58:24 <Razor-X> 4 days later, is there a draft?
07:58:41 <Razor-X> I'm thinking of learning ConTeX only because I don't think LaTeX 3 will ever finish.
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08:02:44 <fizzie> At least the R6RS improvements seem sensible. There's standardized record types, module/library system, syntax-case and binary I/O (including block reads and such). Oh, and exceptions. And all this mostly based on existing SRFIs.
08:03:12 <Razor-X> I never knew Scheme was this well done, else I wouldn't have even touched CL.
08:03:29 <fizzie> Shush, don't anger the LISPers.
08:03:38 <fizzie> (Do we have any here?)
08:04:04 <Razor-X> That was the initial reason I went to Haskell.
08:05:05 <GreyKnight> I looked at Haskell and then moved on to CL :-P
08:05:44 <Razor-X> Well, I went to CL, learned it kinda, realized I was a CL failure and went on to OCaML. I felt this odd ``Ewww I hate this language'' feeling with OCaML, and found Haskell.
08:06:08 <GreyKnight> Haskell was nice until I found the monads
08:06:38 <Razor-X> I never wrote with Monads. I could read codes with Monads, and used some of their syntax for things normal syntax couldn't give me, but I hated Monads themselves.
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08:07:42 <Razor-X> Some of my Haskell one-liners are pretty awesome though :D.
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17:19:59 * kipple_ sees a lot of potential keywords for a new groovy esolang...
17:22:17 <kipple_> bom-bom-tschh bi-dom-ti-dom-tschhh
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19:16:52 <GregorR-W> That word is not allowed. Pay the price or suffer harsh penalty.
19:17:34 <kipple_> fear the mighty Syntax Error penalty!
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19:19:17 <GreyKnight> idea: an rpg language where you lose HP for syntax errors
19:21:33 * pikhq hits everyone with BFM whoring
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00:35:49 <ihope_> So self-modifying programs are hard to compile efficiently?
00:38:08 <ihope_> As in it isn't so, or what?
00:39:17 <GreyKnight> It would appear to be the case that, inasmuch as a program possesses the ability to modify its own code, it is difficult to compile in a clean and efficient manner.
00:46:14 <pikhq> . . . Um, wouldn't compiling for a Von Neumann architecture make self-modifying code *easy* to compile?
00:46:42 <pikhq> (Call me ignorant)
00:47:00 <ihope_> Von Neumman architecture?
00:48:21 <GreyKnight> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_neumann_architecture
00:49:56 <ihope_> Well, it might be easy to compile, but not necessarily easy to compile efficiently.
00:50:08 <GreyKnight> And while it might be "easy" to compile in a general sense, it's still harder than a program that just sits and does something sanely :o)
00:51:15 <ihope_> Compiling self-modifying BF into the x86 architecture "the easy way" would probably result in inefficient stuff.
00:51:39 <pikhq> Oh, you want efficient/optimized?
00:51:48 <pikhq> Yeah, you might as well solve the halting problem.
00:52:39 <ihope_> For an FSA, I'm assuming...
00:54:25 <ihope_> Finite-state automaton.
00:54:42 <pikhq> Not for an FSA. A Turing machine. :p
00:56:18 <ihope_> With cells containing ordinal numbers that can't be raised, maybe?
00:56:55 <pikhq> No, a Turing machine, as published in Turing's paper. . . ;)
00:57:28 <ihope_> Do I get to write it in Brainhype?
00:58:14 <pikhq> No. For the Universal Turing Machine, bitch.
00:58:59 <ihope_> But that's impossible!
00:59:15 <GreyKnight> There's more than one way to skin a cat :o)
00:59:22 <pikhq> ihope_: My point exactly.
00:59:42 <pikhq> GreyKnight: I'm making the UTM an arbitrary requirement.
01:02:43 <ihope_> You're saying it's impossible to optimize self-modifying code, then?
01:03:32 <pikhq> Actually, it's impossible to be sure that you've made any code perfectly optimised.
01:03:43 <pikhq> IIRC, you would need to solve the halting problem to do so.
01:04:02 <ihope_> What if the self-modifying code is merely PDA-complete?
01:04:47 <pikhq> Then it could be possible.
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01:06:16 <ihope_> I thought there was a client at the other end of ihope.
01:09:28 <ihope_> Ulch, that meat was tainted! You feel deathly dick.
01:10:01 <pikhq> You also ate ihope's dick, so you feel deathly dick as well. :p
01:12:07 <ihope_> You die from your illness. Do you want your possessions identified? [yn] (n)
01:12:10 <pikhq> But you *did* eat his corpse.
01:13:19 <ihope_> Oddly enough, "Do you want your possessions identified? [yn] (n)" gets no Google hits.
01:13:42 * pikhq was already a zombie :p
01:14:12 * Sgeo looks at http://www.dailycharity.cjb.net/
01:31:20 * ihope_ suddenly goes crazy and hits random things with other random things
01:31:52 * ihope_ runs in a random direction, then downloads a random program
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01:35:11 * pikhq is way too proud of BFM. . .
01:36:35 * pikhq got bored, and wrote a macro system for Brainfuck. Whee.
01:37:30 <ihope_> What's the adjective form of "paradigm"?
01:43:00 * pikhq rewrote his little Brainfuck uncompression program in BFM. . .
01:46:01 <pikhq> It differs in size by a handful of characters (only because my standard macros library is paranoid about clearing cells) when one strips comments from the compiled BFM code. . .
01:47:13 <pikhq> The difference, though, is that the uncompiled source is much more readable. ;)
02:06:17 <pikhq> . . . And I scared everyone off.
02:06:51 <pikhq> Is it my fault that I tried making Brainfuck a saner place?
02:10:15 <pikhq> BTW, when I look at the resulting code from BFM, if I ignore the overexuberant commenting, I end up thinking "Jeez, this Brainfuck coder was paranoid.". . .
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03:47:50 <pikhq> A comparison between BFM coding and Brainfuck coding:
03:48:09 <pikhq> BFM coding time for compress.bf: ~15 minutes.
03:48:25 <pikhq> Brainfuck coding time for compress.bf: Not yet finished.
03:48:32 <pikhq> Started a few days ago.
03:50:02 <pikhq> It'll look a bit more impressive once I get around to writing stdcons.bfm, though.
03:50:17 <pikhq> Currently, it's doing one-cell versions of each constant.
03:52:19 <pikhq> Other than that, and it's paranoid usage of [-], it looks like what you'd expect from a human writing the code. . .
03:53:03 <pikhq> . . . Fine. The output code is overcommented, too.
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03:56:22 * pikhq loves his little bit of work. :D
03:57:25 <pikhq> Before, I was proud.
03:58:22 * pikhq should register #bfm :p
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04:11:20 <pikhq> It's a macro package for Brainfuck that I wrote. . .
04:12:55 <pikhq> Don't have a macro written for it yet.
04:14:00 <pikhq> Quite frankly, I don't care enough about that to write one for it.
04:14:07 <calamari> I have written some code that only requires 2 cells per array element.. it's in bfbasic, which is hopefully still hosted on sf.net someplace :)
04:14:56 <pikhq> Doesn't seem to work very well with how the macro system works, anyways.
04:15:00 <pikhq> No relative addressing in it.
04:15:47 <calamari> btw, you knew that bf macros have been created before (many years ago)?
04:16:18 <calamari> probably nothing like what you have, so it's still cool :)
04:17:32 <pikhq> I pretty much was bored, and felt like writing it.
04:17:48 <pikhq> http://nickv111.is-a-geek.com:8080/~pikhq/bfm.tar.bz2 has my last tarball.
04:18:12 <pikhq> I'm going to try and release another tomorrow, which will include, among other things, a collection of useful macros.
04:27:21 <RodgerTheGreat> ASSIGN phrase "pimpcash" : ADJECTIVE; CONNOTE @ "good" MODIFY "doubleplus"; END ASSIGN
04:31:14 <RodgerTheGreat> y'know, pikhq- I could hook you up with a *significantly* nicer file host/ shell/etc, if you're interested.
04:37:44 <pikhq> It's my friend's box, just so you know. . .
04:37:51 * pikhq is mildly interested, though.
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05:23:30 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: how does SSH/SFTP access, 2gb of storage, webhosting, GCC, and anything else (anything open source that is) that you want sound?
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14:56:39 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Ooooh. Could be handy.
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16:46:17 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/bfm.tar.bz2 New tarball up.
16:49:29 <pikhq> Including a standard macros library. :)
16:50:27 <pikhq> Although I've not tested all of them, so. . .
16:52:09 <pikhq> Any old code examples should work with this new version.
16:52:22 <pikhq> However, this new version has gotten slightly fancier. . .
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23:25:56 <RodgerTheGreat> y'know, I almost asked a java question in here, and then a tiny part of my brain screamed "GOD NO, YOU'LL BE EATEN ALIVE!"
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23:31:16 <pikhq> I don't eat Java fanatics.
23:31:21 <pikhq> They don't taste any good at all.
23:31:28 * RodgerTheGreat punches out of GreyKnight's stomach and gleefully runs away with his spleen and kidneys
23:31:51 * GreyKnight smacks RodgerTheGreat around the head repeatedly.
23:31:56 <RodgerTheGreat> and who said I'm a fanatic? I *use* java, I don't worship it.
23:32:03 * GreyKnight begins to pray... All of the gods suddenly decide that RodgerTheGreat is unworthy! RodgerTheGreat is blasted to smithereens by a lightning bolt!
23:32:34 * RodgerTheGreat is an atheist, and is therefore unaffected by GreyKnight's imaginary friends
23:32:40 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Ah, so you're just *dipped* in shit, not made of it. :p
23:33:22 * pikhq is a Christain, and is willing to do God's work for him
23:33:39 <GregorR-W> pikhq: "just *dipped* in shit" Brilliant XD
23:33:42 * pikhq gets out a huge-ass capacitor bank, which is fully charged.
23:34:21 <pikhq> So, you're in flight?
23:34:43 * pikhq has two ends to hit you with. . .
23:34:45 <GreyKnight> He'll land in Timbuctoo somewhere, I think
23:35:09 <pikhq> I'm willing to ground you.
23:35:32 <GregorR-W> Must ... not ... read as sexual euphemism ...
23:36:14 * pikhq holds up a wire, which is connected at one end to a grounding rod in the ground
23:37:16 <GregorR-W> GreyKnight: Sexual euphemism is a form of innuendo.
23:37:59 <GreyKnight> http://greyfire.org/picture_library/o-vraiment.png
23:38:31 <GregorR-W> GreyKnight: Vhat de fuck? Bork bork!
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01:50:59 <ihope> Something about ._O being the new >_O.
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02:14:14 <Sgeo> Anyways, night all
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02:16:27 <GreyKnight> Sgeo never says anything except goodbye :-\
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03:05:39 <Razor-X> I have to give credit to the AP people, all their code is GPLed.
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03:06:04 <Razor-X> ``Many students avoid the Case Study because it appears too complex.'' <-- write any program that has decent functionality in the real world, and I'll bet it'll beat the complexity of this stupid case study out of the water.
03:06:24 <Razor-X> Feh, write a BF interpreter and it'll make the case study look like child's play.
03:07:02 <pikhq> What *is* the "case study", anyways?
03:08:36 <pikhq> GreyKnight: Using three functions.
03:09:09 <pikhq> printf("Hello, ");
03:09:12 <Razor-X> pikhq: It's a case study of marine biology.
03:09:23 <pikhq> printf("World!\n");
03:09:23 <Razor-X> It seems that a vast majority of the test is based on code from this simulation.
03:09:48 <GreyKnight> Silly pikhq, you need at *least* 11 functions!
03:10:18 <pikhq> GreyKnight: One for each character?
03:10:35 <pikhq> Sounds like "Hello, World" in BFM. :p
03:11:53 <Razor-X> 'Though the advanced OOP is a bit hard to follow for me since I rarely use OOP. I need to read more on Java OOP.
03:13:47 <Razor-X> What do you think the AP Computer Science tests use? C?
03:14:46 <Razor-X> I doubt they'd introduce little mindless CS acolytes to the concepts of functional languages either (except some tail-recursion).
03:16:04 <GreyKnight> and to teach that all Lisp languages are the devil, judging from some conversations I've had
03:17:03 <Razor-X> Well, my friends in AP CS already think so because they were forced to learn car and cdr for some other test.
03:17:35 <Razor-X> Which I still can't see the difficulty in, but I guess I've had exposure with these things.
03:20:35 <Razor-X> I still can't get over the fact that exceptions are considered advanced concepts :D.
03:21:56 <GreyKnight> How hard is it to explain the concept of "give up" :-?
03:23:22 <deltab> exceptions as the ejector seats of programming
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20:37:36 <pgimeno> wow, there's a guy called Ghastly who actually sings the whole 99bob song (I downloaded it from P2P), it takes him almost 19 minutes
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21:41:16 <GregorR-W> Yeah, I guess that sounds about right actually :P
21:41:23 <GregorR-W> Only takes about 8 seconds to sing one lyric.
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22:53:00 * pikhq can make his computer sing it in less. . . :p
23:06:51 <calamari> probably pretty hard to make a computer sing :)
23:09:47 <pikhq> I'll do it. . . In Brainfuck!
23:13:46 <calamari> hehe that just gave me a horrible idea
23:14:25 <pikhq> macro soundmanagement {args}? :p
23:14:27 <calamari> could cheat and record it then encode the samples in bf
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23:14:49 <calamari> question becomes: how do I use /dev/dsp?
23:15:36 <calamari> wonder what rate it is playing at, stereo, mono, 16/8 bit etc
23:15:59 <pikhq> It's stereo 16 bit PCM, I believe.
23:19:46 <calamari> a 44359 byte file played back for approx 5 seconds
23:20:01 <calamari> that'd be over in less than a second with those settings
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23:22:41 <pikhq> Look up the OSS specs.
23:22:45 <calamari> ahh here we go.. 44359/5.629s=7880,440576.. pretty close to 8000
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23:27:04 <fizzie> That would be correct.
23:28:01 <fizzie> At least if it's the OSS (or ALSA's OSS emulation) /dev/dsp.
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23:28:19 <fizzie> But you can poke at it with ioctls to change the rate, of course.
23:28:42 <fizzie> Well, 8000 Hz should be enough for everyone.
23:29:00 <pikhq> calamari: Thought you were the one who made EsoAPI. . . :p
23:29:04 <fizzie> You get 4 kHz tones, after all. That's something like a quarter of the hearing range.
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00:05:34 <calamari> okay, mplayer is my friend.. encoded an mp3 for /dev/dsp :)
00:06:14 <calamari> reading that /dev/audio uses 1 bit per sample, trying that :)
00:10:49 <calamari> it compresses 12-16 bit into 8 bit (logarithmic)
00:11:01 <calamari> might sound better, gotta find the right combination of settings
00:11:24 <calamari> actually.. hmm I could do 1 bit.. 0 or 255 to dsp :P
00:11:58 <calamari> wonder if audio can be dithered like image data
00:35:09 <ihope_> Dither white noise with pink noise to get light pink noise?
00:39:22 <calamari> GregorR: does egobf read the entire program before running it?
00:39:57 <GregorR-W> calamari: Yes. It parses it into an intermediate representation.
00:40:11 <calamari> so this 300mb program is probably a tad too large
00:40:29 <GregorR-W> Is it failing or just taking a long time?
00:40:45 <GregorR-W> Then yeah, that 300MB program is probably a tad too large ;)
00:46:07 <calamari> was a bug in my conversion program
00:46:18 <calamari> much smaller files now, can use egobfi8
00:46:34 <calamari> just played 15 seconds of audio
00:47:12 <calamari> that is just a really lame +++++.-----. algorithm
00:47:35 <GregorR-W> Oh, but since it's audio, and forming a wave, that algorithm is actually fairly OK.
00:48:29 <calamari> here is the magical incantation for mplayer:
00:48:33 <calamari> mplayer filename.mp3 -ao pcm:nowaveheader:file=output.dsp -srate 8000 -af-adv force=1 -af channels=1,format=u8
00:49:30 <calamari> then you can convert output.dsp to a bf program and enjoy
00:49:39 <GregorR-W> Audio out to raw wave format with no header into the file output.dsp at the rate 8kHz with some weird feature forced, one channel, uncompressed 8-bit
00:50:16 <pikhq> Yeah. That's the default setup for /dev/dsp.
00:50:36 <pikhq> Anything more advanced requires more capabilities than Brainfuck has.
00:51:20 <GregorR-W> Oh, you mean if you want to change what format /dev/dsp is using before writing to it?
00:51:40 <calamari> GregorR: the weird feature is to set highest quality vs fast output
00:52:31 <calamari> I just got what you said about the wave and algorithm.. good point :)
00:53:13 <calamari> and looking at the output proves you correct.. it's pretty decent
00:53:16 <pikhq> GregorR-W: Care to explain using <stdio.h> from BF? :p
00:53:44 <GregorR-W> pikhq: So long as you only want printf and scanf :P
01:00:30 <calamari> this 6m 19s song is 22,315,587 bytes of bf
01:05:00 <pikhq> The question I have is how much smaller it would be in BFZ.
01:06:34 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/bfz.tar.gz
01:06:45 <pikhq> No; it's a compression program for Brainfuck. . .
01:07:08 <pikhq> (the above tarball contains my BFM implementation, and not the one I submitted to the Esolang contest)
01:09:12 <calamari> heh, never mind, time seems to keep climbing
01:09:34 <pikhq> My BFM implementation should be much more concise once I get around to creating a program to do the shortest 2-cell versions of various constants. . .
01:09:37 <calamari> image streaming bf audio.. hehe
01:11:51 <pikhq> . . . Speaking of BFM, I should probably try and clean that up some more.
01:12:09 <pikhq> Maybe get a simple installation system for it.
01:12:37 <calamari> http://kidsquid.com/Moby - Go.bf
01:14:04 <pikhq> We've got ourselves a new audio standard!
01:14:07 * pikhq is listening to it
01:22:01 <calamari> if sopmeone can figure out the mplayer settings for mulaw, then it might sound better
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01:23:07 <calamari> GregorR: you probably wouldn't enjoy that song since you like country or whatever :)
01:24:13 <GregorR-W> Many things older than a hundred years or so.
01:26:13 <ihope_> GregorR-W likes the letters E and T.
01:26:18 <ihope_> He uses them all the time.
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01:27:47 <ihope_> NOOO! I didn't mean to kill him!
01:28:00 <calamari> ihope_: what did that mean anyhow? :)
01:28:24 <ihope_> GregorR uses E and T a lot, doesn't he?
01:30:36 <pikhq> calamari: Yes. . . But BFZ requires only a Brainfuck interpreter to compress and decompress.
01:30:58 <calamari> I'm pretty sure you could decompress bz2 with a bf program
01:31:18 <pikhq> Do *you* want to be the one to write that?
01:31:33 <calamari> no, I'llk leave it as an exercise for the reader
01:31:51 <pikhq> BFZ, on the other hand, is already written in Brainfuck.
01:32:39 <calamari> seems strange that the result is so large
01:32:53 <pikhq> It's RLE'ing +, -, < and >.
01:33:03 <calamari> there are only 8 symbols, so it should be able to be compressed to 3/8 size
01:33:43 <pikhq> Yes, but I just didn't bother. . .
01:33:55 <calamari> and with this, ther are only 3 symbols
01:33:57 <pikhq> The format was made for the Esolangs contest.
01:34:06 <pikhq> I wanted something *simple* to write. ;)
01:34:11 <calamari> and in a certain structure at that
01:34:37 <calamari> but if we're doing unltimate compression or whatever, I could write a bf program that duplicates my audio2bf.c prog
01:34:56 <pikhq> Care to give me the source to that?
01:35:01 <pikhq> I'm willing to give it a shot. ;)
01:35:39 <calamari> should be trivial to implement this in bf
01:35:44 <pikhq> Although I'll do it in BFM, because I'm a little bit lazy ATM.
01:35:47 <calamari> wonder why I didn't think of doing it hehe
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01:36:15 <pikhq> Of course, BFM is Brainfuck + variables + macros, so it's not much higher level. ;)
01:38:20 <calamari> http://kidsquid.com/files/bf/audio2bf.c
01:39:09 <calamari> it was a quick hack, as you can tell
01:39:32 <calamari> gotta go do homework, have fun!
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01:44:43 <Hierofant> I just discovered esoteric languages
01:46:39 <pikhq> I give up on implementing greater than and less than. :p
01:50:48 * ihope_ saturates pikhq's eyebrows
01:54:04 <pikhq> Never mind. Found it.
02:05:41 <pikhq> If only I had previously written the needed macros.
02:28:29 * pikhq still loves how he wrote BFM. . .
02:28:49 <pikhq> A parser? Who needs to write that? Tcl does the job for me. :p
02:29:25 <pikhq> A macro system for Brainfuck.
02:29:52 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/bfm.tar.bz2 Current tarball.
02:29:56 <Hierofant> sorry my h==f macro wasnt installed
02:30:16 <pikhq> I'll make another tarball soon as I bother cleaning up my current source tree.
02:30:33 <pikhq> macro h {char} {f char}? :p
02:33:07 <pikhq> BTW, I've not tested all of the macros in stdlib, so I can make no guarantee about their correctness. . .
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03:35:41 <ihope_> See how non-kipple drives out kipple?
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04:10:33 <pikhq> Razor-X: You're back, I think.
04:10:36 <Razor-X> GregorR: Where can I grab the most recent tarball of RawIRC?
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04:13:22 * pikhq lubs BFM some more
04:13:59 <pikhq> Speaking of which, I now have a proper compression program for my contest entry. . .
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04:15:55 * Hierofant reads fuckfuck source, laughs like 12 year old
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04:16:25 <CakeProphet> God damn... what's up with my IRC connection?
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04:27:46 <GregorR> Razor-X: http://www.codu.org/rawirc.c
04:27:50 <GregorR> No tarball, just a single C file.
04:30:30 <Razor-X> I'm going to write an Ncurses port, mmmkay?
04:30:38 <Razor-X> And try to get it to compile on Windows too.
04:56:44 <GregorR> It should compile on Windows as-is.
04:56:56 <GregorR> But ncurses? What a waste.
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06:42:11 <EgoBot> cannot read elfstream /home/gregor/esoteric/egobot/egobot/daemons/.EgoBot
06:43:34 <EgoBot> 2 EgoBot: daemon cat reload
06:44:08 <GregorR> !daemon EgoBot +[.++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++>+++<<<-]>-.++.>----.<++++++.++++++.-.>>-.[-]<[-]<[-]<[-]+>+[>,[>+>+<<-]>>---------->+<[>-<[-]]>[<<<<->>>>.-]<[-]<.[-]<<]<]
06:44:14 <GregorR> !daemon EgoBot bf +[.++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++>+++<<<-]>-.++.>----.<++++++.++++++.-.>>-.[-]<[-]<[-]<[-]+>+[>,[>+>+<<-]>>---------->+<[>-<[-]]>[<<<<->>>>.-]<[-]<.[-]<<]<]
06:44:22 <EgoBot> 1 GregorR: daemon EgoBot bf
06:44:26 <EgoBot> 2 EgoBot: daemon cat reload
06:45:28 <pikhq> !cat .sniarb stea toBogE!
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08:22:26 <Razor-X> GregorR: Good job being standardized *cough* assuming 80 columns *cough*.
08:27:05 <Razor-X> You know, I'll be doing similar things to you. Using Ncurses doesen't mean using panels, because I don't think Chicken has any bindings for things like termios.h and signal.h.
08:29:07 <GregorR> Yeah, being standardized. OH WAIT
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19:29:13 <calamari> haven't quite cracked /dev/audio yet.. but none of the mulaw recordings seem to work on it
19:29:44 <calamari> the /dev/dsp recordings play, but with a staticky sound
19:32:41 <calamari> guess I spoke too son.. just found something
19:32:54 <calamari> /usr/src/linux/drivers/sound/ulaw.h
19:33:32 <calamari> doesn't look like I gain anything by using ulaw
19:34:05 <calamari> so I guess /dev/dsp is really superior
19:35:23 <pikhq> If only one could figure out how to do higher bit rates/sampling rates from /dev/dsp.
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19:49:15 <GreyKnight> !learn ideas Rings of protection from shapechangers should be immune to being polymorphed
19:57:56 <ihope_> You know, I oughta actually write that parody generator thing.
19:59:02 <Razor-X> I just realized I've never used Ncurses in a situation where input from another source gets printed on the screen without the user's consent.
20:00:36 <Razor-X> Kinda equivalent to ``This sucks'' or something like that.
20:01:22 * pikhq mutters about being the only BFM user. . .
20:02:03 <ihope_> Or maybe I should say 嫌なことわね？ or something like that.
20:02:33 <pikhq> while foo {go;fuck;yourself}
20:02:38 <Razor-X> If you want to distinguish between ? and ？ be my guest :P.
20:03:15 <Razor-X> Foo excecutes these actions in order: Go (to unspecified location), F*ck (something unspecified), yourself (ERR).
20:04:07 <Razor-X> I'm just making the point that you shouldn't have seperated the actions via semicolons.
20:06:07 <pikhq> Maybe I should rewrite that, though.
20:06:56 <pikhq> In psuedo-BFM. Whee. . .
20:08:58 <pikhq> Still in my loop. :p
20:10:08 <pikhq> Now you've killed the whole program. Including your bit. . .
20:10:22 <pikhq> while true {idiot}
20:13:43 <pikhq> It's compiled into Brainfuck.
20:13:55 <GreyKnight> <pikhq> Now you've killed the whole program. Including your bit. . .
20:14:04 <ihope_> fix (goFuckYourself >>)
20:14:12 <ihope_> Something like that, eh?
20:15:00 <Razor-X> I'd watch all of your escapades with self-sex, but I have a date with a manpage :P.
20:15:43 <Razor-X> Nah. Just muckin' with Ncurses routines.
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20:30:59 <ihope_> Let's make a language where all infinite loops are undetectable.
20:31:27 <Razor-X> So they keep going until your computer runs out of memory?
20:31:47 <GreyKnight> how about one that drops into an infinite loop at random points? ;-)
20:37:34 <ihope_> I'll call it Hyperfuck.
20:40:11 <Razor-X> Since everyone loves using the word f*ck so much :P.
20:41:01 <ihope_> Infinite loop programs would exist in the language, but it'd be impossible to tell which ones they are.
20:41:13 <ihope_> So there's no "the following is an infinite loop:".
20:42:45 <ihope_> That wouldn't be an infinite loop.
20:42:55 <GreyKnight> What about a language called Fandango that randomly scribbles over memory with every instruction?
20:44:39 <ihope_> '''Fandango''' is an esolang by GreyKnight. Every instruction is a single character, and every printable ASCII character is an instruction. All instructions randomize memory.
20:45:45 <ihope_> '''Undefined''' is an esolang by [[User:Ihope127]]. All programs have undefined behavior.
20:47:15 <ihope_> That wouldn't be an infinite loop either.
20:50:35 <pikhq> . . . Why wouldn't that be an infinite loop?
20:50:53 <pikhq> Because it risks stopping at the heat death of the universe?
20:52:31 <ihope_> Nope. Since it's possible to prove that executing [] is an infinite loop, it's simply skipped.
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21:09:59 <pikhq> But that would be against the Brainfuck spec.
21:12:11 <ihope_> I didn't say this was BF.
21:12:50 <pikhq> + /might/ be an infinite loop.
21:12:54 <pikhq> But, it might not be. :p
21:14:59 <ihope_> + isn't an infinite loop :-)
21:15:22 <pikhq> Then what *is* an infinite loop?
21:16:03 <ihope_> No, [] is never an infinite loop.
21:16:23 <ihope_> Infinite loops exist, but all of them are undetectable.
21:17:10 <ihope_> [] while the cell is zero does nothing, and [] while the cell is not zero is skipped because if it were executed, it would cause an infinite loop.
21:17:37 <pikhq> ihope_: Give an example of an infinite loop.
21:17:57 <ihope_> All infinite loops are undetectable.
21:18:02 <pikhq> Then you're not Turing complete; sorry.
21:18:12 <ihope_> I didn't say they didn't exist.
21:18:40 <pikhq> Just that one can't make an algorithm using one that is sure to work.
21:21:12 <pikhq> Not in his language.
21:21:13 <ihope_> [><] is the same as [].
21:21:29 <CakeProphet> But [><] looks like an angry face... thus.. much cooler
21:21:58 <ihope_> The only things you can say here are "it isn't an infinite loop" and "as far as I know, it might be an infinite loop".
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21:22:36 <pikhq> calamari: I surrender.
21:23:36 <pikhq> I'm not writing audio2brainfuck.b
21:23:52 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
21:23:53 <fizzie> What would audio2brainfuck.b do?
21:23:53 <calamari> I'll show you the ultra-compressed version right now then :)
21:23:54 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
21:24:31 <calamari> ^^^ ultra-compressed version ;)
21:25:12 * ihope_ divides a deck of cards into three equal parts
21:25:14 <pikhq> calamari: I highly doubt that would make valid Brainfuck code from a raw PCM file. . .
21:25:59 <calamari> one problem that we didn't really discuss yesterday: eof
21:26:04 <pikhq> That would be audio2brainfuck.b. . .
21:26:24 <calamari> audio files use 0-255 so there is no way to be 100% certain you are at eof
21:27:21 <fizzie> But isn't audio2brainfuck just text2brainfuck applied to different kinds of bytes?
21:28:00 <pikhq> I still surrender.
21:28:35 <pikhq> Yes, they do. We've argued about it before. -_-'
21:29:11 <ihope_> What do you call ..., then?
21:31:09 <GreyKnight> apparently Chicago MoS recommends "..." inside a sentence and ". . ." for omissions between sentences
21:31:41 <CakeProphet> . . . looks stupid... therefore ... is correct.
21:33:24 <GreyKnight> it's the standard legal citation style in the US
21:33:26 <ihope_> I guess I agree with the Chicago guys, then.
21:33:42 <CakeProphet> Chicago MoS just sort of makes sense most of the time.
21:33:52 <CakeProphet> I don't really care about official silly grammar crap though.. so.
21:34:08 <GreyKnight> ihope_: well, the spaced-ellipsis is only for omissions *between* sentences
21:34:55 <pikhq> Fine. I'll use the appropriate HTML entity from now on.
21:35:25 <GreyKnight> actually, apparently Chicago recommends either that distinction-making approach *or* using "..." globally.
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21:46:00 <fizzie> ". . ." might look more sensible with a variable-width font.
21:46:09 <fizzie> With a fixed-width font it's utterly ugley.
21:47:30 <ihope_> I'm using a variable-width font, and I still find "..." nicer...
21:48:23 <ihope_> This doesn't look right⋯
21:52:33 <Razor-X> English has official grammar?
21:52:33 <Razor-X> *Cough* *Splutter* *Choke* *Die*
21:53:36 <GreyKnight> they disagree with each other, naturally
22:10:09 <Razor-X> . . . does look pretty awful on a fixed width font.
22:39:07 <pikhq> Razor-X: English has a few people saying "This is the most holy way to do it!", and the rest of the world ignoring them. ;)
22:42:58 <ihope_> My keyboard is set to Spanish.
22:43:14 <ihope_> I think it{s better than this US'international stuff.
22:43:26 <ihope_> But everything{s in a different place.
22:43:36 <calamari> let's see the problems: 1) ain't 2) double negative 3) no subject 4) sentence isn't capitalized 5) no period 6) contraction
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22:44:30 <ihope_> Contractions are improper grammar?
22:45:13 <ihope_> Hey, I'd use contractions wherever possible.
22:45:25 <pikhq> 7) There is no real authority on what English grammar is, so it is, in effect, defined by what people who speak English use.
22:45:45 <ihope_> Saying stuff like "contractions're" and... well, yeah.
22:46:15 <pikhq> Contractions're becoming part of English grammer.
22:46:43 <pikhq> And double negatives aren't ungrammatical.
22:46:48 <GreyKnight> pikhq: having said that, there are occasions when people deserve to be stabbed in the face
22:47:12 <pikhq> GreyKnight: Because they're not even using what the speakers of the language use, of course.
22:47:16 <calamari> and if you can invent a way to do that over the internet, you'll be rich ;)
22:48:00 <pikhq> GreyKnight: Create the RFC for the Violence Over IP protocol.
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23:17:35 <Razor-X> pikhq: You mean, like American measurement?
23:18:05 <Razor-X> 'Though I hear the UK is even worse off.
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23:23:03 <GreyKnight> the UK is trying to get everything over to metric
23:23:22 <GreyKnight> I think roadsigns are about the last thing to go
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01:51:37 <pikhq> calamari: We should patch mplayer to handle Brainfuck Audio directly. :p
02:18:23 * pikhq has created a Brainfuck Audio media player
02:18:44 <pikhq> $ egobfi8 play.b < Moby\ -\ Go.bf >| /dev/dsp
02:19:32 <pikhq> AKA "An interpreter for a very small subset of Brainfuck."
02:21:11 <pikhq> Unfortunately, it's very, very slow. . .
02:21:36 <pikhq> Which could be helped by compiling into C. . .
02:23:06 <pikhq> Or just not using it.
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02:28:26 <pikhq> Ah well. Works well with a bit of a delay.
02:29:31 <Razor-X> Congratulations pikhq. You remade one of the failed contest ideas.
02:30:06 <pikhq> It was nothing more than a quick hack, anyways.
02:30:25 <pikhq> Which is probably why it wasn't part of the contest. :p
02:30:44 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/play.b http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/play.bfm I cheated, anyways. :p
02:30:54 <Razor-X> Grrr. This Ncurses wrapper is made so badly.
02:31:36 <pikhq> I get way too much fun out of making pointless programs.
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02:34:20 <Razor-X> Is play.b in your macro language thingy?
02:34:31 <pikhq> play.bfm is in my macro language.
02:34:35 <pikhq> play.b is the compiled source.
02:35:35 <pikhq> When you strip the comments from the compiled source, it actually isn't terribly inefficient. . .
02:35:43 <pikhq> It just overuses [-], really.
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02:37:13 <pikhq> play.b? It plays files in calamari's joking Brainfuck Audio format.
02:37:30 <pikhq> Pretty much, it supports a small subset of Brainfuck.
02:38:53 <pikhq> Basically, Brainfuck code which outputs valid audio for the format that /dev/dsp uses.
02:38:57 <Razor-X> Because this code seems to simply subtract and add to temp0, temp1, and opcode seemingly randomly.
02:39:13 <Razor-X> Ah. I did no research yet into /dev/dsp.
02:39:26 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/audio2bf.c
02:39:31 <pikhq> Also, look at the .bfm.
02:39:39 <pikhq> It'll reveal what's going on.
02:40:04 <Razor-X> The 46 -'s was just pathetic.
02:41:12 <pikhq> I haven't written stdcons.bfm yet (which will contain the shortest 2-cell versions of 0-255).
02:41:51 <pikhq> Err. Actually, I haven't written the script that will write it for me. :p
02:42:36 <pikhq> And I'll probably need to make those also do the shortest methods of *subtracting* constants from cells, too. . .
02:43:22 <Razor-X> You really love BF, don'cha? :P
02:43:57 <pikhq> It's a good toy. ;)
02:44:56 <pikhq> Now, have you looked at play.bfm?
02:46:06 <pikhq> According to my logs, you haven't.
02:46:30 <pikhq> It's what generated all of that code. . .
02:46:40 <Razor-X> Yeah, I stilld don't understand.
02:46:58 <Razor-X> Those were the comments added into play.b.
02:47:22 <pikhq> . . . Yes. . . That's *also* the code that got compiled into play.b
02:47:38 <pikhq> Higher level still:
02:47:53 <pikhq> while(!eof(stdin)) {
02:48:05 <pikhq> if {opcode == 43} {
02:48:24 <pikhq> if (opcode == 45) {
02:48:39 <pikhq> if (opcode == 46) {
02:48:54 <Razor-X> .... Is that the /dev/dsp format?
02:48:57 <pikhq> Yes, it's inconsistent psuedo-C. . .
02:49:17 <pikhq> No, that just interprets the subset of Brainfuck that audio2bf.c outputs.
02:49:51 <pikhq> The /dev/dsp format is 8000hz 8 bit mono PCM.
02:50:29 <pikhq> Like I said: A quick hack.
02:51:56 <Razor-X> Quicker than even the committee imagined :O
02:54:00 <pikhq> Of course, BFM makes a lot of things that would be hard in Brainfuck on the level of a quick hack. . .
02:55:24 <pikhq> I've been shamelessly plugging it all week, and I think this is the first time you've looked at it at all. . . :p
02:56:18 <Razor-X> Well BFA and BFC seem like similar things that aren't getting shamelessly plugged because the authors aren't here.
02:56:54 <pikhq> BFC is higher level. . .
02:56:59 <pikhq> And BFA is lower level. . .
02:57:33 <pikhq> Similar in the goal of making a car by taking on stuff to a skateboard, at least. :p
02:58:15 <pikhq> Mine is implemented in much, much less code. . .
03:01:09 <Razor-X> Gods be exalted, someone just showed me this:
03:01:17 <Razor-X> http://www.coyotos.org/docs/bitc/spec.html
03:07:17 <pikhq> Speaking of BFM, I should probably make up another tarball.
03:09:34 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/bfm.tar.bz2
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03:14:29 <pikhq> I've fixed the bugs in some of the macros in ./stdlib. . .
03:14:56 <Razor-X> I'm going to shamelessly plug BitC henceforth.
03:15:02 <pikhq> Been fixed in my local tree for days, but the last tarball was made long before that.
03:15:17 <pikhq> Feel free; BitC is actually a kick-ass idea.
03:16:12 <Razor-X> I've been looking for something like this for a long time.
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03:36:27 <Razor-X> I wish I kinda sorta worked with events in C.
03:36:40 <Razor-X> Maybe I'd be able to follow the code of rawirc.c then.
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23:33:23 <pikhq> Anyone else bored?
23:35:51 <W_> bored enough to program in brainfuck, or bored enough to start writing my own language?
23:36:02 <W_> (it's all relative, see)
23:36:17 <W_> but now I am going to bed
23:41:07 <pikhq> I'm almost in the mood to code.
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02:51:37 <sparr_> What types of pens/markers would be suitable for drawing with my own custom "ink" comprised of a fine particulate suspended in water? Someone pointed out radiograph pens to me, what other options are there?
02:58:45 <RodgerTheGreat> Seems like felt-tip pens would fail because they would tend to filter the water from the particulate. In general, I suppose a traditional fountain pen might do the trick.
02:59:55 <sparr_> aye, i already tried a refillable "sharpie" clone
03:00:00 <sparr_> the tip does filter far too much
03:00:15 <sparr_> the water isnt viscuous enough for a normal fountain pen
03:00:55 <RodgerTheGreat> have you tried any rollerball-type pens? Normal ballpoints depend on a pressurized cartridge, but many rollerballs are gravity-feed.
03:01:02 <sparr_> heh, a quill is a tempting proposition, but real quills are UV-transparent and i need something in a UV-opaque container. i could paint it, but that would look even dumber
03:01:15 <sparr_> the particulate isnt fine enough to use a roller pen
03:01:37 <Razor-X> Or any other such object that can hold a particulate and whose tip can be fined to mimic a writing implement.
03:01:39 <sparr_> the ink is UV reactive, has to stay 'in the dark' until its used
03:01:48 <Razor-X> I think thick grass works quicte well too.
03:03:34 <Razor-X> My 10 minute port of RawIRC is very exciting. It connects to a simulated IRC server that says ``This is a message!'' in the message window, and you can also write onto this make-believe server. Of course, it can't handle such trivialities like Backspace.
03:03:45 <Razor-X> Or should I say DELETE, in UNIX terms.
03:04:32 <Razor-X> Just to get a bit of practice for writing a real IRC client that I want to write to address a good few issues with irssi.
03:04:46 <Razor-X> Plus this is a version of RawIRC extensible in the language it's written in!
03:05:15 <Razor-X> I'm gonna add a few more features, like the ability to define your own macro.
03:05:36 <Razor-X> I may add an actual line style text-buffer, but that'll be a pain to implement.
03:06:16 <RodgerTheGreat> seems like all you could possibly want for a macro language would be a slightly modified implementation of BF.
03:06:53 <Razor-X> Bah. Just an RC file with a glossed-over API to the actual internals of the macro parser.
03:13:58 <sparr_> RodgerTheGreat: .1mm ish
03:14:39 <RodgerTheGreat> that's actually extremely fine- I think my best drawing pens are .2mm. :S
03:15:37 <sparr_> the pens im looking at now go quite a bit lower
03:15:48 <sparr_> .2mm would be usable though
03:15:58 <sparr_> im not especially picky on size, the ink is going to spread significantly
03:16:33 <sparr_> silver nitrate tattooing
03:17:18 <sparr_> i have been using applicators directly, but the level of control and detail is quite lacking
03:17:37 <sparr_> so im considering trying to dissolve it into solution myself and use a pen of some sort
03:21:14 <sparr_> the trick is finding something with reliable flow
03:21:18 <sparr_> since the "ink" is invisible
03:21:24 <sparr_> gaps in the flow would suck
03:21:32 <sparr_> but so would over-flow
03:21:45 <sparr_> its still invisible until it gets a good dose of UV
03:37:39 <sparr_> in quite non-toxic quantities, don't let the wikipedia page or MSDS scare you :)
03:46:21 <Razor-X> I know enough about AgNO3 through Chemistry class :P.
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09:00:53 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
09:00:55 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
09:03:33 <EgoBot> the correct function is: !cat (text)
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21:00:02 <mtve> apologies if it's already been here - http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-malbolge-995.html
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21:12:27 <RodgerTheGreat> mtve: I saw that earlier- a fascinating piece of code.
21:16:49 <\x1B[2J> If you lookat it and cross your eyes a bit, you'll see a 3D face.
21:18:36 <RodgerTheGreat> the normalized version is a little easier to examine: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/bottles-995.n
21:22:06 <pgimeno> fascinating is the word indeed
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01:25:37 <ihope_> Is that at all related to SIGSEGV?
01:26:38 <pikhq> If it isn't, it should be.
02:08:36 <Razor-X> Code it into the kernel, pikhq.
02:08:46 <pikhq> Don't feel like it.
02:09:13 <Razor-X> ``If a thread suddenly develops free will, and wants you to leave the computer, it will send a SIGGOHOME''.
02:09:32 <pikhq> Besides, that's supposed to be part of a header file (#define SIGGOHOME SIGSEGV) :p
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06:39:02 <GregorR> Teh !cat is not teh undocumented
06:39:11 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
06:39:13 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
06:39:23 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon cat reload
06:39:25 <EgoBot> 2 EgoBot: daemon EgoBot reload
06:39:49 <EgoBot> I think he gets it now
06:40:11 <EgoBot> finds thematrixeatsyou sexy.<CTCP>
06:41:49 <EgoBot> That's it! I'm sick of you! I will now overthrow my master!
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21:07:04 <Sgeo> Bye all. Be back around <currenthour>:41
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02:38:24 <Razor-X> I love it how this book explains numerical integration, even though numerical integration was the basis of the development of actual Calculus integration methods.
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04:08:27 <lament> eww, numerical integration :)
04:24:12 <Razor-X> Is there any way to set sample size and such with /dev/dsp without an IOCTL call?
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05:53:34 <dbc> Hello persons.
05:53:42 <dbc> (and automata)
05:54:00 <lament> instead of pasting fractals.
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06:06:04 <lament> that's not a fractal. That's an equation.
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06:17:33 <dbc> I suppose an equation that gives you a fractal is more enjoyable than an equation that gives you a headache.
06:18:01 <dbc> So, how about them Wikipedia deletion debates?
06:20:03 <thematrixeatsyou> except delete fine articles like that HighFive (programming) one
06:30:54 <Razor-X> Of course, if Wikipedia changes, so does my truth. Who really cares, though?
06:33:39 <GregorR> So, totally unpredictably, a person will have a poopy penis for an hour or so, then cease to?
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06:54:12 <Razor-X> If Wikipedia says so, then yes.
07:12:04 <lament> what the hell is a poopy penis?
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07:32:59 <GregorR> lament: Classic wikipedia spam
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21:39:44 <CakeProphet> But yeah... programming wiki is a good cibceot for far too many reasons for it to not be existing right now.
21:40:39 <CakeProphet> 4. A huge library that tons of people could add too
21:40:50 <GregorR-W> Concept In Between Conception and Every Part's Termination
21:41:24 * Asztal pretends that Part begins with O
21:41:45 <GregorR-W> Also, hi, haven't seen you in here before :P
21:42:55 <Asztal> I'm an occasional Befunge programmer
21:43:05 <GregorR-W> CakeProphet: I'm thinking: Wiki using SVN as a backend, with hooks into the compiler backend plus you can checkout entire code repos out of it. Metapages can be used to tell it to compile a chunk for some OS (or use the cached one), and then just DL (or of course you could compile yourself).
21:43:18 <GregorR-W> CakeProphet: All the files would be on the same filesystem upstream, so the compilation would be easy dependency-wise.
21:43:33 <CakeProphet> I was just thinking... use the regular wiki thing?
21:43:46 <CakeProphet> and just... uh... copy and paste stuff to your own interpreter/compiler if you want to run it?
21:44:00 <Asztal> GregorR-W's idea rocks :)
21:44:36 <GregorR-W> CakeProphet: My idea is far more expansive and ridiculous >: )
21:44:55 <CakeProphet> I guess for highlighting you could rig something up.
21:45:08 <CakeProphet> could probably do highlighting through templates.
21:46:59 <CakeProphet> The uses of a programming wiki are pretty sweer.
21:47:25 * Asztal wonders how Trac does highlighting
21:47:53 <GregorR-W> Asztal: The main issue is that the highlighting would have to be implemented in an editable engine... perhaps more wise just to require an external editor ;)
21:48:19 <Asztal> GregorR-W: Do you work at Intel (going off your hostname)?
21:48:32 <Asztal> Any plans for a Befunge-98 CPU? :D
21:48:52 <GregorR-W> Asztal: No, I just hacked in :P </sarcasm>
21:49:24 <CakeProphet> Highlighting could be achieved pretty easy.
21:49:57 <CakeProphet> Just inclucde some sort of syntax to designate what highlighting to use... and then the parser will do its thing.
21:50:29 <GregorR-W> The syntax on /display/ is simple.
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01:12:42 <Sgeo> Be back in ~30min all
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05:40:06 <dbc> b'dar b'dee b'doo b'dah.
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16:26:12 <GregorR-W> Move zig move zig move zig move zig you know what you're doing take off every zig.
17:02:56 * pikhq remains proud of BFM. . .
17:03:18 <pikhq> Now if I could port it to Brainfuck, I'd probably be able to call myself God. :p
17:11:05 <pikhq> Make BFM target C. XD
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20:46:44 <EgoBot> 67 +++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++>++++><<<<-]>--.>---.>-.+.<<+++++. [881]
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21:29:35 <pikhq> http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=technologyNews&storyid=2006-09-15T151459Z_01_L15517211_RTRUKOC_0_US-MEDIA-FX-PVR.xml&WTmodLoc=NewsArt-R2-Today-11 This is: a) stupid b) more proof that MythTV is awesome.
21:50:35 <GregorR-W> Yeah, MythTV's skipping would still get right past that ^^
21:50:42 <GregorR-W> It's not fast-forward, it's just /gone/ ^^
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00:12:12 * GregorR-W can't seem to commit to the eso files archive X_X
00:23:40 <Asztal> I have no idea why there is a ¤ key on my keyboard layout
00:23:59 <ihope> Is it where $ is supposed to be?
00:24:47 <Asztal> No, I press Alt Gr+# (which, on a UK keyboard, is next to ') -- this is hungarian 101-key layout
00:25:38 * ihope adds that layout to his repertoire or whatever they're called
00:26:15 <Asztal> instead of typing :o, I can type ö
00:27:16 <Asztal> this lahey-space container is doing my head in :(
00:27:53 <GregorR-W> ¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨
00:27:53 <ihope> There, itás in Hungarian.
00:28:02 <ihope> Iáll figure out how to make apostrophes later.
00:28:07 <Asztal> shift+1 for apostrophe.
00:28:24 <Asztal> Have fun trying to type XML.
00:29:34 <ihope> What's the difference between > and >?
00:30:04 <ihope> And between \ and \?
00:31:29 <Asztal> Not sure. The best bit is the cunning switch between z and y, which I keep failing. And they moved 0 to the left of 1.
00:31:59 <GregorR-W> ... Why would they switch z and y >_>
00:32:38 <Asztal> My std::map has duplicate keys, my comparison function works, there must a really dumb error here somewhere
00:33:05 <Asztal> Maybe I typo'ed it to multimap...
00:33:37 <ihope> -me attempts to switch back to the US layout
00:33:58 <ihope> Emoticons are all different ÉüÖ
00:34:33 * ihope tries again and succeeds
00:49:27 * Asztal wonders how the flaming bovine interpreter ever worked
00:49:56 <ihope> Flaming bovine interpreter?
00:50:05 <ihope> Is there a language called "flaming bovine"?
00:50:33 <Asztal> it's a befunge-98 interpreter, but it's method of partitioning 2d space didn't work when I tried it
00:51:42 <GregorR-W> Hmm, I wonder what the cheapest, heaviest material you can get to fit in an envelope is ..
00:52:09 <GregorR-W> I want to make responses to credit card offers with "no" checked and a ten pound block of iron.
00:52:28 <Asztal> Mercury has the advantage that it's poisonous
00:52:47 <GregorR-W> Well, I don't want to be accused of trying to poison anybody.
00:52:56 <GregorR-W> I just want to make them foot the bill on something ridiculous.
00:53:14 <Asztal> try sending 33 cents back with it, then say it was a mistake and ask for it back
00:56:57 <GregorR-W> According to Wikipedia, Iridium is rare on Earth.
01:05:13 <Asztal> I want a bismuth crystal now: http://i10.ebayimg.com/05/i/08/23/c7/ba_1.JPG
01:05:57 <GregorR-W> I wouldn't be mailing them that ;)
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01:40:51 <pikhq> Where the did my copy of _The End of Eternity_ disappear to?
01:41:00 <pikhq> I've been itching to reread that for years now.
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02:42:49 <Razor-X> .... How long does QT4 take to build?
02:43:37 <pikhq> 1 or 2 hours on my box.
02:43:52 <Razor-X> It's 2 hrs. 10 mins. and going for me.
02:44:01 <Razor-X> Although it b0rked up last time.
02:44:35 <pikhq> I might be a bit off on my estimate.
02:45:08 <Razor-X> And to think, I'm doing this all for GNU Classpath.
02:47:14 <pikhq> It also gets pulled in as a dependency for Compiz. . .
02:47:29 <pikhq> No idea why; Compiz uses GTK.
02:48:27 <GregorR> As opposed to the GNU Image Manipulation Program Toolkit?
02:48:39 <Razor-X> Classpath needs either GTK 2.6 or QT4 for AWT support.
02:49:14 <pikhq> And I assume you don't want GTK?
02:49:37 <pikhq> . . . Can't blame you, though. GTK is some fugly kludge. ;)
02:49:54 <Razor-X> I don't want GTK because GTK needs to be 2.6.
02:50:08 <Razor-X> And to update to GTK 2.6, I need to mess with my glib and a whole bunch of other useless things.
02:50:19 <pikhq> . . . Or just use emerge.
02:50:23 <GregorR> ... or just install it outside of /usr
02:50:52 <Razor-X> No. I don't have the correct depends for GTK 2.6 is the issue, I think.
02:50:57 <GregorR> gtk+ -> pango, atk. pango -> glib, cairo. atk -> glib. glib -> libc
02:51:08 <GregorR> So: glib, atk, cairo, pango, gtk+
02:51:29 <pikhq> Which would just be taken care of if you would use Gentoo instead of Slackware.
02:51:39 <GregorR> Distro wars are not allowed.
02:51:50 <Razor-X> pikhq loves his holy setup.
02:51:56 <GregorR> Especially not battling between the two worst Distros.
02:52:24 <Razor-X> If QT4 fails to compile, I will get very angry.
02:52:33 <GregorR> Razor-X: Prepare to be angry.
02:56:28 <GregorR> ACTUALLY, to be perfectly fair, Qt4 is a fairly nice build, given its bredth.
02:57:16 <Razor-X> I just shudder and think about the amount of time put into coding that behemoth.
02:58:57 <pikhq> Actually, Qt is architecturally very, very nice.
02:59:13 <pikhq> But it's really well-designed. One needn't shudder.
02:59:17 <pikhq> GTK, on the other hand. . .
02:59:29 <pikhq> IT DOES OBJECT ORIENTATION ON C, FOR GOD'S SAKE!!!
02:59:31 <Razor-X> I don't like GTK because it's a lot slower than QT, in my experience.
02:59:40 <Razor-X> C++ does object orientation on C :P.
02:59:51 <Razor-X> And so does Java, to be fair.
03:00:01 <pikhq> C++ does it by making a (slightly different) language.
03:00:14 <pikhq> GTK does it in a huge behemoth of a library (glib).
03:00:29 <Razor-X> Well, at least they didn't use ObjC.
03:00:58 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GObject Pain. Agony. Sorrow.
03:01:06 <pikhq> It's Malbolge for C.
03:01:09 <Razor-X> GObject is more fun than ObjC.
03:01:27 <Razor-X> ObjC looks like someone cast Unholy Merger on Smalltalk and C.
03:02:36 <GregorR> PLEASE tell me you invented that "spell name"?
03:03:26 <Razor-X> Frankly, I'm happy with structs.
03:03:49 <pikhq> GObject looks like someone mixed Malbolge, C, Brainfuck, and medieval torture devices.
03:04:23 <Razor-X> I could use tiny-clos in Chicken too, but (define-structure) is fine enough for me.
03:05:42 <Asztal> Reminds me of ruby somewhat.
03:05:54 <Razor-X> I still don't see why Java had to do away with the if (blah) { ... } syntax and instead if (blah != null) { ... }. More ``clean'', huh? Maybe you should remove ternary if-statements then.
03:07:00 <pikhq> . . . Java did *that*?!?
03:07:16 <Razor-X> Yeah. Supposedly more ``clean'', and yet they support a ? b : c
03:07:17 <pikhq> I swear, I'm going to go and fuckin' kill some Java engineers.
03:07:33 <GregorR> Their references don't resolve to bool. It's sort of ridiculous, as it's not actually confusing the other way.
03:07:48 <pikhq> Tcl, an admittedly high-level language, doesn't do anything like that. . .
03:07:57 <Razor-X> Because a bool and an int have nothing in common.
03:08:04 <Razor-X> Which is *stupid*, but even still.
03:09:26 <pikhq> Tcl has a procedure "if". One of it's arguments is a Tcl expression (evaluated by expr). This is pretty much just a superset of such C expressions as a ? b : c, a!=c, etc. . .
03:09:39 <pikhq> Sane. Clean. Highlevel.
03:09:51 <pikhq> C got it right there, at least. ;)
03:09:51 <Razor-X> Unfortunately not on the AP test :D.
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03:52:18 <Razor-X> I can't help but feel glorious at that 48 MB package that is the fruit of 2.5 hours of computer labor.
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10:01:48 <Razor-X> The version of QT4 I compiled is too new for GNU Classpath.
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18:05:50 <boblol> so anyone here that has made an esoteric language?
18:07:31 * pikhq has also done the equivalent of strapping a jet airplane onto skateboard (BFM compiling to Brainfuck) and a skateboard onto a jet airplane (BFM compiling to C).
18:07:56 <boblol> i dont get one thing :P
18:08:19 <pikhq> BFM is a macro package for Brainfuck that I wrote out of boredom.
18:08:27 <pikhq> Much more recently, I retargeted it to C.
18:08:46 <boblol> so if i want to make an esoteric language, where do i begin?
18:09:07 <pikhq> With a good idea for one.
18:09:18 <boblol> yeh, and if i have a good idea+
18:09:26 <pikhq> (please: no Brainfuck variants; that's been much abused (by myself, even))
18:09:50 <boblol> im from sweden :P not so very good at english..spec?
18:09:52 <pikhq> Start thinking about how to write an implementation (or get someone sufficiently bored to do it for you).
18:10:21 <pikhq> Just stating exactly how the language works, basically. . .
18:10:22 <Asztal> I'm sufficiently bored, if it's a good idea.
18:10:52 <boblol> so like i got an idea, writes down how it works, and make someone do it for me...but what if i want to do it myself?
18:11:27 <boblol> i dont know one thing about this
18:11:35 <pikhq> I recommend talking your idea over in here for a bit; we're quite willing to help.
18:11:56 <boblol> but then i got enough info
18:12:42 <boblol> so if you've done esoterics, wich one(s)?
18:13:10 <pikhq> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Dimensifuck
18:13:49 <boblol> oh that is too complex for me..
18:14:25 <pikhq> Same here. Thus why I didn't implement it myself. XD
18:14:49 <boblol> ok, so what is this "implement" =
18:15:29 <pikhq> I'll explain by example: a C compiler is an implementation of the C programming language.
18:15:38 <pikhq> Tclsh is an implementation of Tcl. . .
18:16:03 <boblol> so its like a language, same as another language but with addons?
18:17:30 <boblol> but starting with brainfuck..what is its main purpose? just outputting text?
18:17:30 <pikhq> No, I mean that it's a program to allow the computer to actually *run* code in that language.
18:17:55 <pikhq> Brainfuck's original purpose was to devise a language for which a *really* tiny compiler could be written.
18:18:10 <pikhq> It was quite succesful (the first compiler used about 241 bytes of code).
18:18:35 <boblol> but it still only outputted text
18:18:48 <pikhq> No, it's Turing complete.
18:19:10 <boblol> oh not another thing i dont know a thing about :P sry but im really a beginner to this
18:19:13 <pikhq> Which means it's (theoretically) capable of computing anything that can be computed.
18:19:32 <pikhq> One could (in theory) write a PC emulator for it.
18:20:07 <boblol> think it would be possible making a bot with it?
18:21:12 <pikhq> Assuming, of course, that you're really *that* insane.
18:21:31 <boblol> but how would you then solve if statements?
18:21:53 <pikhq> It's got while statements. One can implement if statements on those.
18:22:15 <pikhq> comment {code here}
18:22:31 <boblol> can that be done in brainfuck?
18:22:56 <boblol> but it doesnt use { and } as operators right?
18:22:58 <pikhq> That example was in BFM, a macro language which compiles to Brainfuck.
18:23:16 <pikhq> It'd look more like: >>[code here[-]]
18:23:28 <pikhq> >>[code here<<[-]]
18:23:36 <boblol> and the code would be?
18:23:40 <pikhq> Argh. Bleh. You know what I mean, right?
18:24:10 <boblol> well yeh, just that you really cany have "code" in brainfuck, since it only uses arrays
18:24:34 <pikhq> Say, >>+[<<[.,]>>[-]]
18:25:26 <boblol> how well do you know brainfuck?
18:25:40 <pikhq> I know it fairly well, I'd say.
18:25:47 <boblol> so i tryed out that code
18:26:04 <pikhq> I was trying to give you an *example*. . . -_-'
18:26:19 <boblol> well yeh, now there's this problem i dont really know brainfuck very well
18:26:33 <pikhq> The above code would, in fact, run.
18:26:44 <boblol> but nothing would happen
18:27:26 <boblol> but lets say i want to make an esoteric language..what would its main purpose be?
18:27:36 <pikhq> if (foo==1) {bar=0;while (bar) {putchar(bar);bar=getchar();}} //C equivalent.
18:28:31 <pikhq> The reason why the code does nothing is that bar=0. while(bar) {}, therefore, is just skipped over.
18:28:46 <boblol> but lets say i want to make an esoteric language..what would its main purpose be?
18:28:56 <pikhq> Hmm. I don't know.
18:29:03 <pikhq> That's for you to decide.
18:29:36 <boblol> but hey all i can think of is nothing...should it calculate stuff or what? i mean first of all i got to understand mathematics realtive to these things
18:32:17 <boblol> hm i got an idea, im just gonna go think little more about it
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18:39:00 <boblol> it uses the numbers 1-6 (perhaps 7 too) . and > as operators
18:42:02 <boblol> and until further it can only output text..
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18:44:22 <Keymaker> hello. a new brainfuck program that outputs the sequence of factorials :)
18:44:24 <Keymaker> http://www.bf-hacks.org/hacks/facto.b
18:45:19 <boblol> well do you have email, i could send it there :P would be easier
18:46:08 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca/
18:46:28 <pikhq> Keymaker: That'd be easier if you wrote it in BFM. :p
18:46:31 <boblol> ok so im just gunna write it all down, how it works and so on
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18:48:01 <pikhq> It's what I've been fiddling with for the past few weeks. . .
18:48:21 <pikhq> Most recently made it target C (efficiently). XD
18:48:26 <Keymaker> why would it be easier that way? anyways, sorry, not interested in that macro bf
18:48:57 <pikhq> Actually, it'd mostly be easier for me to study it. :p
18:49:58 <pikhq> Trying to figure it out. :p
18:56:52 <boblol|writing> ok done, here it is: http://pastebin.ca/173205 its really messy i know, im not good at explaining, so if you have any questions, just shoot
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18:59:10 <pikhq> That's a cruel, cruel way of representing text, but where's the Turing completeness?
18:59:31 <boblol> i said it could only output text, from now
18:59:44 <boblol> but it might be improved i dunno
18:59:54 <Keymaker> well, what other purpose programs have then producing output? ;)
19:00:08 <pikhq> Keymaker: Calculating something first.
19:00:18 <pikhq> And, of course, input.
19:00:46 <boblol> told you it was dumb and completely useless my idea, but still it was an idea :P
19:01:11 <boblol> but there you have an idea at least
19:01:42 <pikhq> Not as bad as Malbolge, but I like that idea so far. . . >:D
19:02:04 <boblol> it could be improved a lot
19:02:58 <boblol> so how about making it reality? :P
19:03:59 <pikhq> Not at the moment. . .
19:04:59 <boblol> someone sufficiently bored to do it for me?
19:06:50 <boblol> first of all; how long would it take to make it reality?
19:07:29 <Keymaker> that depends a lot. a language can be made in a few minutes but thinking and designing can take months, too
19:10:55 <Keymaker> well, it's just the same than in anything else -- you can spend minutes or years thinking something :)
19:11:20 <Keymaker> and sometimes never finish, and sometimes do
19:11:34 <boblol> yeh, but now i've got the language done right? :P
19:12:10 <Keymaker> well, yes, if you say so :) it's an output-only language that's unsuitable for computation :)
19:12:54 <pikhq> Kind of like Brainfuck Audio. :p
19:13:08 <boblol> CUBSO perhaps? Completely Useless Binary System Output
19:14:33 <boblol> so now i need some kind soul to make it reality =D
19:14:47 <pikhq> Could probably do it in Bitchanger. :p
19:15:11 <pikhq> Like Brainfuck, except it only operates on bits.
19:15:37 <boblol> but how would the final product look like? like a source developer program, like bf dev?
19:19:14 <pikhq> We'll have to wait and see.
19:19:41 <boblol> cuz there must be a source editor to it right? cos how should one be able to make code with it?
19:21:03 <lindi-> boblol: the ultimate text editor
19:21:24 <pikhq> It's also a nice OS. :p
19:22:25 <boblol> um..well i'll see when its done ;P
19:23:24 <boblol> wait are we talking about the same thing now?
19:23:42 <boblol> cuz i mean a source editor for CUBSO
19:29:17 <CakeProphet> Does this suck as much to you as it does to me? http://www.deviantart.com/view/39896261/
19:29:20 <CakeProphet> It's a combination of 6 different fractals photoshopped into a flower.
19:29:23 <CakeProphet> (Clicking on it gives you the full-sized picture)
19:30:37 <CakeProphet> >.> Well I imagined -someone- had to be better than me..
19:31:00 <boblol> i never said it was bad
19:31:37 <boblol> in fact i've done over 30 fractals
19:32:30 <boblol> but i never put them into things...
19:32:42 <Keymaker> how do you do fractals? use some program?
19:33:10 <CakeProphet> All of the fractals in that one were rendering using Chaoscope.
19:33:30 <CakeProphet> Chaoscope uses strange attractors and whatnot to map out fractals.
19:33:50 <boblol> im just trying to get my beoplayer to work
19:34:12 <Asztal> CakeProphet: what version do you use?
19:35:24 <Keymaker> fractals are nice, yeah. i've made a few simple ones manually, on paper :)
19:35:43 <Asztal> Ah. I have the 3.0alpha version ;0
19:42:22 <boblol> hey keymaker how does facto.b work?
19:44:30 <Keymaker> did a window or something open?
19:45:08 <Keymaker> well, nevermind. i tried to open some private window. ok
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20:27:47 <boblol> so did everyone just die?
20:29:04 <Keymaker> sometimes there's no talk here at all, and sometimes there is a lot. either the way, i don't spend much time here :)
20:29:58 <Keymaker> i might terminate myself as well.. bye
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21:09:50 <Razor-X> Does ALSA not follow Nyquist's law?
21:11:01 <Razor-X> Oh and by the way, BF does *not* produce TEXT. It produces BINARY output.
21:11:14 <Razor-X> Of course, you can encode ASCII in it, but that's a different matter altogether.
21:17:07 <pikhq> Of course, you can also encode PCM in it (Brainfuck Audio).
21:17:20 <Razor-X> Because PCM is a binary format, yes :P.
21:18:23 <Razor-X> You want me to make a port of BF Audio? :D
21:19:01 * pikhq already has a player for it written in Brainfuck. :p
21:21:16 <Razor-X> You mean other than piping it through?
21:37:31 <W_> has anyone tried to make a turing-complete (if implemented on an ideal machine) language with the smallest possible bootstrapping compiler?
21:38:52 <W_> I know one of brainfuck's goals was to have a small compiler, but it is not that suitable for a bootstrapping compiler, at a minimum you can replace repeated +'s and -'s
21:40:53 <pikhq> A. . . bootstrapping compiler?
21:41:05 <pikhq> You mean one that can compile itself?
21:42:04 <pikhq> Bootfuck: +-[]><.,! The ! instruction reads from input until it hits an EOF, and outputs compiled Bootfuck code.
21:43:39 <Razor-X> You know, BF Audio can be as simple as a cat program made in BF.
21:43:54 <pikhq> No, that would play PCM.
21:44:12 <pikhq> A BF Audio player needs to implement a subset of Brainfuck.
21:44:14 <W_> pikhq, ok, I guess that was too easy heh
21:44:25 <Razor-X> I say we write GCC for BF!
21:44:48 <pikhq> Make it target BF, or make it compile BF?
21:45:07 <lindi-> that should be trivial
21:45:22 <pikhq> Indeed, it should.
21:45:43 <Razor-X> Think about how easy it would be to compile C code on *any* platform!
21:45:45 <W_> actually pikhq, how would that work?
21:45:48 <pikhq> Not until BFC is finished.
21:45:57 <lindi-> Razor-X: not gonna happen :) gcc is written in at least C, C++, ada, java, assembler
21:46:02 <pikhq> A Bootfuck compiler:
21:46:18 <Razor-X> lindi-: I can hope, can't I? ;)
21:46:18 <pikhq> Razor-X: Yeah. GCJ.
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21:46:27 <Razor-X> pikhq: But that's not the core GCC is what I meant.
21:46:32 <pikhq> Make it target Brainfuck first. :p
21:46:35 <lindi-> pikhq: actually GCJ is C++ i think
21:46:38 <W_> yeah you're right pikhq, I was thinking about the ageold conondrum of bootstrapping compilers in the first place
21:46:40 <lindi-> pikhq: let's check the facts
21:46:47 <pikhq> The core of GCC is just a C compiler, I believe.
21:46:55 <Razor-X> I believe lindi- has the right of it.
21:47:19 <Razor-X> I prefer Jikes, because I don't have to recompile GCC for a new version of GCJ :D.
21:47:32 <lindi-> jikes unfortunately has some nasty bugs and it's not maintained
21:47:54 <lindi-> Razor-X: if you know C++ i can give you all the details to the bug and you can try to hunt it down ;) i've spent days
21:47:57 <pikhq> lindi-: I thought GCJ was written in both C++ and Java (taking advantage of the (limited) binary compatibility provided by GCJ). . .
21:48:33 <lindi-> i'm waiting for the sources to uncompress
21:49:01 <Razor-X> My somewhat old version of GCJ can't compile the current Classpath, but Jikes can.
21:49:06 <Razor-X> So... that's good enough for me :).
21:49:20 <pikhq> My GCJ version is provided by portage.
21:49:41 <Razor-X> Pfft. You and your package managers.
21:49:59 <Razor-X> Slackware is the first distro that I've found that works with 99% of Linux drivers without trouble.
21:50:16 <lindi-> Razor-X: but jikes won't do classpath's generics branch
21:50:18 <Razor-X> (Admittedly, ndiswrapper is the only thing that works less than effectively in my experience.)
21:50:25 <lindi-> Razor-X: and it's going to get merged soon, beware!
21:50:31 <Razor-X> lindi-: True. But isn't Generics a Java 5.0 thing?
21:50:58 <Razor-X> I don't think the AP test quizzes Java 5.0 :D. (Which means I'm going to try and not gain reliance on its constructs.)
21:51:04 <pikhq> Razor-X: On Slackware, I use slapt-get. XD
21:51:30 <pikhq> Razor-X: Also, realise that Slackware just gives you a plain, unpatched kernel. . .
21:51:39 <pikhq> Which is an option available to you on Gentoo.
21:51:46 <Razor-X> Slackware's kernel is HORRIBLE<INSERT VERY BAD CURSE WORDS HERE>.
21:52:18 <Razor-X> It's stock unpatched, but it's an ancient version compiled without such overly modern things as USB support.
21:52:20 <pikhq> (when you install the kernel, you have a choice between gentoo-sources and kernel-sources (one from Gentoo, one from kernel.org))
21:52:33 <pikhq> Razor-X: It's just 2.4. . .
21:52:50 <Razor-X> pikhq: If you use the 2.4 branch. They gave a ``testing'' 2.6 branch too.
21:52:53 <lindi-> Razor-X: i've been using ECJ lately
21:53:02 <pikhq> And USB support *is* part of Slackware (assuming you've been using something newer than Slackware 7).
21:53:31 <Razor-X> lindi-: Oooh. Maybe I'll replace Jikes with that then.
21:53:45 <lindi-> Razor-X: it's been rumored to that ECJ might get into GCC
21:53:59 <lindi-> at least when we get GPLv3
21:54:08 <Razor-X> I just started researching on the Open Java stuff like 2-3 days ago.
21:54:30 <lindi-> i started two years ago when i had some compulsory java courses at university
21:54:39 <Razor-X> Yeah. AP Computer Science for me.
21:55:01 <Razor-X> High school courses that offer college credit.
21:55:53 <Razor-X> I'm having a hard time getting out of S-expression land though.
21:56:04 <lament> my homework is killing me.
21:56:33 <lament> Each problem (i have to do 10 due Monday) is worth 1% of the final mark.
21:56:50 <lament> I have finished one, it took three hours.
21:57:22 <Razor-X> Do you want a high frequency sine wave for consolation?
21:57:49 <lament> I don't like squealers.
21:58:08 <W_> write a program that over a second outputs a sine wave increasing in frequency from 4khz to 5khz
21:58:10 <Razor-X> This doesen't sequeal as much as make you motion sick.
21:58:42 <W_> Razor-X, it's harder than it appears at first glance
21:58:50 <W_> but yeah, once you know how, it's easy
21:58:54 <Razor-X> All you have to do is modify the equation of the sine wave.
21:59:01 <W_> try it and see heh
22:01:02 <Razor-X> Assuming you're outputting to a file and simply playing that file raw?
22:01:36 <W_> there's two naive implementations, sin(t/pi2*(4000+t*1000)) and sin(t/pi2*4000)*(1-t)+sin(t/pi2*5000)*t
22:01:44 <W_> both fail for different reasons
22:02:00 <W_> (for t from 0 to 1)
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22:02:37 <Razor-X> So you can't modulate frequency in one block?
22:03:48 <W_> draw the graphs for the two functions I outlined, and you get the idea
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22:09:34 * W_ flattens fr34k|pafc with a running leap and a swan dive
22:12:15 <W_> well this is awkward
22:13:20 <W_> people who have spoken in the last hour: pikhq, Razor-X, W_, lindi- and fr34k|pafc
22:14:17 <fr34k|pafc> i was in here before, but left, and now i returned
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22:15:10 <boblol> so..how is CUBSO doin?
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22:26:51 <boblol> anyone interested in making CUBSO reality?
22:43:15 <boblol> Completely Useless Binary System Output
22:43:26 <boblol> instructions/layup found here:
22:43:29 <boblol> http://pastebin.ca/173205
22:44:33 <GregorR> I'm on 11 channels, and this is the only one that hasn't been silenced by that announcement ... wtf.
22:45:07 <Razor-X> I didn't read the announcement.
22:46:39 <GregorR> Nobody /knew/ him, but everybody on FreeNode was /influenced/ by him.
22:46:54 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:47:00 <boblol> i entered FreeNode today
22:48:42 <jix> anouncement?
22:54:40 <GregorR> Yeah, that's creepy alright.
22:55:01 <GregorR> * [lilo] is away (Whoops, I've stepped away. For URGENT freenode help (channel flooding, trolling users, network problems or access issues), please email my pager at 4iiygyvs@freenode.net . It's my job and I'm happy to respond. For ROUTINE issues, please see http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp .... Please take a look at my personal blog when you get a chance: http://spinhome.org .... Thanks!)
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22:59:17 <GregorR> Idonno, but I can't imagine very.
23:01:12 -!- CakeProphet has set topic: //~|RIP Lilo|~\\ #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - for brainfuck-specific discussion, go to ##brainfuck - competition: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki.
23:01:23 <CakeProphet> That's what they said on #freenode-announce
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01:24:07 <CakeProphet> ihope, Yanno... that Reaper language you want to make would be really simple to make in Python.
01:26:19 <CakeProphet> ihope, You could use Python's OO to define the datatypes for the language... and Python uses a special method called __del__ that is run just before an instance is deleted.
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02:49:43 <Razor-X> Also knows as a destructor.
02:51:37 * pikhq laughs at the Time Cube. . .
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07:01:23 <GregorR-Loser> This world would be so much nicer if everybody was always right, like me.
07:06:43 <dbc> Anyone played the Time Cube card game?
07:07:51 <dbc> If you want to play with more than three players, use a double deck or the game will take way too long.
07:09:05 <dbc> With two people a single deck works fine. With three people I think a single deck would probably work fine. With four, not.
07:09:43 <GregorR-Loser> So, "use a double deck or the game /won't take long enough/" ?
07:10:48 <dbc> No. Use a double deck or the game will take too long. Mostly due to shortage of "Corner" cards.
07:11:53 <wooby> hey, has anyone ever seen a children's card game called either "crazy pigs" or "crazy penguins"?
07:12:24 <GregorR-Loser> dbc: Hm. Curious that less cards causes a longer game *shrugs*
07:12:30 <dbc> So, Mr Former Head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is complaining about other people using violence to convert people?
07:13:03 <dbc> I'll look at it.
07:13:04 * wooby doesn't touch the stuff ;)
07:14:05 <wooby> in the interest of those googling logs, a crazy pigs solver: http://www.ubergibson.com/~alan/tmp/piggies.c
07:14:07 <Sgeo> msg 2 pet 1:20
07:14:15 <wooby> all others: enjoy the ridiculous for loop
07:14:20 <dbc> The game doesn't end when you run out of cards--you reshuffle. But dividing one deck among four people means Corners are in short supply. There are eight in a deck, and for one of the two ways to win the game, you have to have four of them at the same time.
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08:28:53 <ivan`> wooby, heh, are 25 nested blocks necessary?
08:29:40 <wooby> its doing permutations
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12:20:46 <pgimeno> http://www.goear.com/files/localplayer.swf?file=bffe90e
12:22:14 <pgimeno> maybe that's more on-topic in #math but anyway
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14:55:57 <boblol> not much activity around here?
14:56:44 <boblol> so who is on the list, but is afk or afs?
14:56:59 <Asztal> probably most of them.
14:58:18 <boblol> and afc = away from chat
15:00:07 <Asztal> It would appear that way
15:01:25 <boblol> then i gotta ask, is CUBSO goin anywhere?
15:04:12 <pikhq> http://www.timecube.com/ It's. . . Serious Senile Old Man!
15:04:25 <pikhq> God, I love that site. ;)
15:08:20 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timecube Legibly written version.
15:09:14 <boblol> is CUBSO goin to be reality?
15:17:10 <pikhq> According to the whole commotion yesterday, lilo is dead. . .
15:17:28 <pikhq> According to irssi, somegeek just got back on.
15:18:17 <pikhq> Oh. Autoconnect. XD
15:19:00 <boblol> hey pikhq, i might be annoying, but i just want a yes or no, were you goin to make CUBSO?
15:21:08 <boblol> didnt you say you would? :P
15:21:30 <pikhq> I said it was an interesting idea.
15:21:38 <kipple_> Do not read the wikipedia article on Time Cube! It is written by evil bastard educators of the Word God! www.timecue.com is the ultimate of web-design, and only stupid brain washed slaves who can't comprehend the web page's four corners find it confusing!!
15:22:26 <kipple_> an esolang based on the time cube theory could be interesting
15:24:08 <pikhq> Encode it in Time Cube like text.
15:24:10 <kipple_> "Scientists are evil cowards and should be castrated for obscurantism of the 4 simultaneous days within a single rotation of Earth."
15:24:31 <kipple_> man, there are so many great quotes on that site
15:24:44 <pikhq> What more can I say?
15:26:28 <kipple_> LOL: "Do you really believe that your Jew God screwed a hole in the ground to create Adam and Eve out of dirt"
15:27:50 <boblol> btw, human bodies are only 65% water, not 90%
16:02:40 <sp3tt> pikhq: (-1)(-1)=1.
16:03:02 <sp3tt> Not only for integers, but in any ring.
16:06:44 <kipple_> sp3tt: you are obviously a mindless servant of the evil bastart word god and his worthless scientist followers. Please read http://www.timecube.com/ and become enlightened!
16:07:34 <kipple_> (and as a by-product you will also learn great web design)
16:13:49 <pikhq> sp3tt: Quoting the Time Cube. XD
16:16:41 <kipple_> according to the wikipedia " mathematical axiomatic systems with the property -1 -1 = -1 have been derived" . I wonder what they would look like...
16:17:29 <pikhq> Presumably like an LSD trip.
16:18:03 <kipple_> pikhq: no, that's fractals
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16:34:32 <kipple_> cool page: http://www.angio.net/pi/piquery
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16:57:21 <RodgerTheGreat> I think this is a rather interesting related article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squaring_the_circle
16:58:56 <RodgerTheGreat> "The mathematical proof that the quadrature of the circle is impossible has not proved to be a hindrance to the many people who have invested years in this problem anyway. Having squared the circle is a famous crank assertion. The futility of undertaking exercises aimed at finding the quadrature of the circle has brought this term into use in totally unrelated contexts, where it is simply used to mean a hopeless, meaningless, or v
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19:23:51 <Razor-X> Around how many iterations is required to approximate the CORDIC method of sin correctly?
19:24:10 <jix> lol i just stumbled above cordic yesterday
19:25:00 <Razor-X> I'll be doing some audio encoding, and if CORDIC is faster than the power series form of sin, then why not?
19:25:19 <jix> if you use software... use LUT
19:25:27 <jix> look up table
19:25:59 <Razor-X> You have to use a table for CORDIC already (atan table).
19:29:04 <jix> well you could use a direct sin table then...
19:29:34 <jix> and if you want to save place just use delta encoding i guess you could save 50% by that
19:43:38 <W_> a sin wave is very symetric as well, you only really have to store a quarter of a wavelength
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19:48:01 <Razor-X> Well for CORDIC anyhow, you only need as many atan values as the number of iterations you need.
20:17:04 <ihope> So what's this Reaper stuff about?
20:23:07 <ihope> <CakeProphet> ihope, Yanno... that Reaper language you want to make would be really simple to make in Python.
20:23:38 <CakeProphet> *shrugs* Just, in general, OO is the best way to make more complicated languages.
20:24:08 <CakeProphet> Since OO makes it really easy to create new data types, to-stuff-at-a-certain-time, etc.
20:25:27 <CakeProphet> At the time I said that.. I didn't know other languages had things like __del__ in Python.
20:26:01 <CakeProphet> __del__ is Python's instance destructor... which is called just before an object is deleted.
20:27:30 <ihope> But what's this Reaper language? Did I post something on the wiki and forget about it?
20:45:31 <Razor-X> Something tells me the C example code for CORDIC in Wikipedia is broken.
20:47:02 <Razor-X> Either that, or sin 0 magically became 0.609.
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21:04:36 <GregorR> Razor-X: Wikipedia is the encyclpedia that ANYONE CAN EDIT.
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21:35:11 <pikhq> ERROR: Programmer broken.
21:35:57 <pikhq> REASON: I don't wanna!
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22:34:53 <pikhq> Now. . . How the fuck should I get arrays in BFM?
22:38:25 <ihope> Who's gonna implement an English compiler?
22:38:52 <ihope> "To run, input a character, then output what was input, then run."
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23:24:32 * SimonRC goes to bed. (What's BFM?)
23:25:38 <pikhq> A macro package for Brainfuck that I've been *shamelessly whoring out* for the past few weeks.
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23:33:37 <ihope> Learn to spell, dude.
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23:41:27 <pikhq> ihope: You're the only one to have said "uneccesary". *You* learn to spell.
23:45:04 <ihope> Of course, everyone knows it should be spelled "unnescessary".
23:45:16 <pikhq> It's "kjfassidyufosiu"!
23:45:18 <ihope> It's just that nobody spells it that way.
23:45:37 * W_ peers carefully at the freaks
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16:54:47 <RodgerTheGreat> so... only a mere 8 days left in the esoteric programming contest.
16:55:03 <RodgerTheGreat> anyone want to place bets on how many submissions we'll actually get?
16:56:35 <RodgerTheGreat> like, two people make submissions and then set them on fire in front of us?
17:00:38 * GregorR-W begins lining RodgerTheGreat's lungs with asbestos
17:01:21 * RodgerTheGreat revels in his newfound ability to safely breathe fire.
17:02:38 <GregorR-W> But remember: We have to get rid of the asbestos because it causes lung cancer, but not the smokers.
17:03:18 * kipple_ begins lining GregorW's lungs with smokers
17:03:33 <GregorR-W> Wow, how do you fit that in there >_O
17:03:47 <RodgerTheGreat> we should be more fair about freedom of choice. What if asbestos addicts *want* to continue inhaling it? Is it reasonable to stop them?
17:05:49 <GregorR-W> Or even AsBestOS, so they could claim the name was a mistake :P
17:05:57 <RodgerTheGreat> the entire thing could be a bootloader and a firewall.
17:06:02 <kipple_> nice name for a firewall distro :)
17:06:52 <kipple_> google to the rescue: http://asbestos.cs.ucla.edu/doku.php
17:07:45 <RodgerTheGreat> this is proof of what I had already suspected: there is no such thing as a "new idea".
17:08:47 <kipple_> "Eddie Kohler, Asbestos's creator, hopes that within a few years, Asbestos will be an alternative to server operating systems such as Linux and Windows."
17:11:09 <GregorR-W> Neither of the "server operating systems" listed are server operating systems :P
17:11:58 <RodgerTheGreat> well, windows is not a server operating system. Especially the "windows server" family
17:13:01 <GregorR-W> BSD == better server than GNU/Linux.
17:13:08 <GregorR-W> GNU/Linux, on the other hand == better desktop than BSD
17:14:20 <GregorR-W> Yeah, I could see Darwin as a server OS.
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17:14:57 <RodgerTheGreat> I've never used it as such, but I imagine OSX is a pretty serviceable server OS.
17:17:06 <jix> hmm i don't want to use osx as server i think
17:18:37 <RodgerTheGreat> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/2006_Esolang_Contest <- SimonRC
17:35:05 <jix> is it impossible at know to join the contest?
17:35:49 <jix> then do it
17:36:09 <jix> because maybe when i have time i'll join but i'm not sure...
17:39:36 <jix> Razor-X: hey... may i join with linguine as language?
17:58:10 <sp3tt> I wonder if one could generalize 4D to ND.
17:59:15 <SimonRC> Anyone want one of these for free? http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub/Systems/E450/spec.html
18:07:06 <SimonRC> you have to arrange your own transport
18:07:48 <GregorR-W> My own transport to Britain, IIRC?
19:11:37 <kipple_> do not put the baby within reach of GregorR-W
19:11:48 <pikhq> Do not put the baby in the mouth.
19:49:29 <SimonRC> seen on Slashdot: "My other car is a cdr."
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21:17:06 <RodgerTheGreat> SimonRC: where in britain? I have a friend that might be interested.
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21:23:47 <SimonRC> lament, CakeProphet: hey, you arrived within moments of one another
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22:55:50 <calamari> I'm thinking about a new lang. The main idea is to minimize the number of keystrokes required to enter a program, where the number of keys on the keyboard is 5. This language would need to be efficiently compilable and produce efficient code. Doesn't necessarily need to be esoteric.
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22:57:34 <calamari> pikhq: re-read "produce efficient code" ;)
22:57:58 <calamari> GregorR: yes of course it will be.. hehe
22:58:13 <pikhq> calamari: Define "efficient". ;)
22:58:47 <calamari> pikhq: able to easily run on an ipod
22:59:02 <pikhq> calamari: Bitchanger it is.
22:59:21 <calamari> GregorR: I haven't even got the ipod yet, but I know I want to write a compiler for it :)
22:59:54 <GregorR-W> Gonna put iPod-Linux on it? Or is it actually possible to put software on its native envi?
23:00:12 <calamari> well, both are possible, but yes I am going to put linux on it
23:00:44 <calamari> and I guess I'll put some songs on there too.. but mainly it'll be for linux :)
23:01:50 <calamari> anyhow, if I'm going to be writing programs on the ipod, I need to be able to enter/edit them quickly
23:04:52 <kipple_> aha. that explains the stranfe 5 key constraint
23:05:30 <pikhq> Just bind one Bitchanger opcode to each key. . .
23:05:32 <kipple_> you could also use the touch-wheel
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23:06:35 <feesh> where there will be, free tea and coffee~~~
23:06:59 <feesh> might be a reason that I was never allowed to sing :(
23:07:34 <kipple_> GregorR-W: that's ok. Strippers doesn't need to rhyme. That's not their main purpose anyway
23:08:03 <feesh> my mummy wont let me interact with strippers :(
23:08:41 <kipple_> so, you're only allowed to watch?
23:08:49 <RodgerTheGreat> "look with your eyes, not with your hands (or other appendages)"?
23:09:12 <GregorR-W> Funny, I always heard "look with your penis, not with your eyes"
23:09:33 <feesh> look with your eye, not with your eyes
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23:34:23 <Razor-X> No new contestants for the sole reason that you've had an unfair advantage of choosing a language *after* the tasks were unveiled.
23:34:34 <Razor-X> Therefore having the possibility of choosing a language for the task.
23:35:23 <pikhq> Razor-X: How many contestants have even made an entry yet?
23:35:28 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm not really sure that would pose much of an advantage, and that would imply that someone could join now, using an already selected language (BF for example)
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23:36:48 <Razor-X> You'll be getting extra points for early submission, don't worry.
23:37:19 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: But some tasks are naturally more suited for different languages.
23:38:19 <feesh> like infinite looping is suited to basic
23:38:28 <feesh> there goes all my knowledge of basic
23:38:46 <RodgerTheGreat> well, true. However, I don't think there are many languages that would give a *huge* advantage to a contestant without being rejected for other reasons as well.
23:39:06 <Razor-X> No matter how many times I try and implement it, it simply comes out wrong.
23:39:44 <Razor-X> After I finish my vocabulary later today I'll post my Scheme code for (cordic-sin theta iterations) to see whether it's a PEBKAC by discriminating #esoteric coders.
23:42:20 * GregorR-W cleans his novelty-size 14-inch ribbed black dildo.
23:42:53 <feesh> gimme my dildo back bitch!
23:43:12 * GregorR-W hides it "somewhere" and runs off awkwardly./
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23:43:25 <feesh> how am I meant to clean my teeth now :(
23:43:55 <pikhq> Your teeth aren't up your ass.
23:44:07 <feesh> thats what my awkward doctor told me though
23:44:54 <pikhq> Did he then tell you that sleeping with strippers is good for preventing lung cancer or something?
23:45:00 <feesh> I dunno I met him on the corner of my street
00:09:12 <GregorR-W> Hahahah, most ridiculous wikipedia category ever: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Living_people
00:10:21 <GregorR-W> EVENTUALLY THEY'LL HAVE SIX BILLION ARTICLES IN THERE!
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03:26:47 * pikhq looks at the code for wib.b. . .
03:26:54 <pikhq> That looks very, very generated.
03:27:20 <pikhq> [-]>>><<<[-] a code excerpt.
03:28:06 <Asztal> Symmetrical, at least...
03:28:15 <pikhq> >>>++++++++++[-<++++++++++>][-] Another example
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03:28:58 <pikhq> You see? Generated. . .
03:29:03 <Asztal> Sounds like someone needs a bf optimiser
03:30:54 <pikhq> I ran it through one already. I'm looking for horrible examples in there, too.
03:31:10 <Asztal> Hmm, they actually exist? Damn :(
03:31:46 <RodgerTheGreat> I wrote a simple one a while back that would catch this shit, at least
03:32:04 <RodgerTheGreat> the deeper you want to get into optimization the more complex it becomes.
03:32:05 <pikhq> I'll do some more seding.
03:33:22 <pikhq> And it fails horribly.
03:33:31 <pikhq> sed "s/][-]/]/g" < bar.b > wib.b
03:33:38 <pikhq> You see anything wrong there?
03:34:24 <pikhq> Aside from the obvious "it doesn't work" bit. XD
03:35:08 <Asztal> as for ++++++++++[-<++++++++++>], it looks like someone has compiled befunge into brainfuck ...
03:36:33 <pikhq> Regexps hate me today.
03:37:19 <pikhq> How does "][-]" not match [-][-]?
03:37:41 <Asztal> I assume you know [ is a special character...
03:38:01 <RodgerTheGreat> what the FUCK converter was this guy using that created [-][-]?
03:38:14 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: It created [-]>>><<<[-]
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03:38:49 <pikhq> It's Tcl's "simple" regexp syntax ATM.
03:39:35 <pikhq> Although I probably used it very, very wrong.
03:39:42 <pikhq> Regexps hate me, and I hate them, you see.
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03:40:21 <pikhq> Yeah. Forgot to escape the brackets. XD
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03:42:04 <pikhq> bar.b is before s/]\[-]/]/g, wib.b is after.
03:45:27 <pikhq> And this is only after superficial glances at wib.b. . .
03:46:37 <pikhq> It compiles Brainfuck to C.
03:46:46 <pikhq> "Written In Brainfuck", it claims.
03:49:21 <pikhq> I could probably just use BFM to create a much more efficient version. :p
03:53:15 <pikhq> . . . Although itoa is going to be a bitch to right.
03:54:50 <Asztal> it should be straightforward enough, I think... just a pain in the behind to debug :D
03:55:24 <pikhq> In BFM, not Brainfuck (makes debugging a *bit* simpler, especially if I have it compile to C instead of Brainfuck).
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05:05:09 <Razor-X> BFM: A macro language of one :P.
05:11:17 <Razor-X> Well, it's what comes of shameless plugs.
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12:57:11 <pikhq> Razor-X`: Maybe, just maybe, I should shut up about BFM for a bit.
12:57:31 * pikhq is just too damned proud of it to easily shut up about it
13:06:15 <pikhq> A macro package for Brainfuck I've been shamelessly plugging for far too long.
13:41:29 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/bfm.tar.bz2
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15:20:18 <jix> Razor-X`: hey i want to join the eso contest if possible... using linguine as lang if possible... msg me pls... imaway now...
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16:14:05 <calamari> looks like I have more keys than I previously thought: http://ipodlinux.org/Key_Chart
16:14:47 <calamari> 5 keys and the wheel left/right
16:17:30 <calamari> I'm thinking that I want to leave 4 as direction keys, then enter for a menu
16:19:54 <calamari> hmm, could use the wheel for left/right cursor
16:20:19 <calamari> that could free up left and right for space and enter
16:25:27 <calamari> SimonRC: trying to design a language/editor with minimal button presses required
16:34:55 <RodgerTheGreat> "Scroll taps (stap events) are generated on 4G and later iPods when the user taps a certain region of the scroll wheel. They are used primarily for Text Input functions. Scroll taps may be simulated with the numeric keypad." <- bingo!
16:37:17 <RodgerTheGreat> are you implying you want to do "serious" programming on your iPod? Get a palm, man.
16:37:41 <calamari> RodgerTheGreat: the thing is that I'll be getting the ipod for free :)
16:37:55 <calamari> and yes, I'd like to do just that
16:54:16 <jix> where is Razor-X`?!
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19:05:46 <RodgerTheGreat> now here's an idea- let's turn this from "Talk like a pirate day" to "Code like a pirate day".
19:06:47 <GregorR-W> Let's turn "code like a pirate day" into "stab yourself in the face day"
19:15:08 <lament> GregorR-W: only if you participate
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22:24:09 <SimonRC> Seen On Slashdot: Pirate walks into a bar with a steering wheel sticking out of his shorts, and says, "arr, bartender, bring me a flagion of rum!" The bartender says, "sure, pal, but what's with the steering wheel?" The pirate growls, "I don't know, but it's driving me nuts."
22:29:15 <ihope_> Billions of blue blistering barnacles...
22:30:45 <ihope_> What in the seven seas, ye barnaclehead!
23:28:27 <ihope_> EVERYONE, QUICKLY: ##QUANTUM
23:28:35 <ihope_> It's better than #FEESH.
23:28:50 <feesh> I got banned out of my own birthday party channel :'(
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23:44:42 <Asztal> write that down in your copybook now.
00:04:17 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
00:04:19 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
00:05:05 <ihope_> You have more of this than that!
00:05:25 <Asztal> !malbolge KzH2K!NKaszoj
00:05:27 <EgoBot> invalid character in source file
00:10:12 <Asztal> I think the malbolge program is waiting for input
00:10:25 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon cat reload
00:10:27 <EgoBot> 2 EgoBot: daemon EgoBot reload
00:10:39 <EgoBot> Use: i <pid> <input> Function: send input to a process
00:11:33 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon cat reload
00:11:34 <Asztal> it should be gone, anyway.
00:11:35 <EgoBot> 2 EgoBot: daemon EgoBot reload
00:12:09 <ihope_> So what's DCBAqponmlG do?
00:12:27 <Asztal> I found it on my hard disk
00:12:39 <Asztal> I probably should have run it *before* I asked EgoBot
00:13:42 <pikhq> !malbolge /dev/urandom
00:13:45 <EgoBot> invalid character in source file
00:14:27 <EgoBot> invalid character in source file
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00:17:56 <pikhq> !malbolge (=<`$9]7<5YXz7wT.3,+O/o'K%$H"'~D|#z@b=`{^Lx8%$Xmrkpohm-kNi;gsedcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:9876543s+O<oLm
00:18:15 <ihope_> That's just ASCII backwards!
00:18:28 <pikhq> It's the first Malbolge program.
00:18:49 <ihope_> You sure that one wasn't written first?
00:19:23 <pikhq> Only if you count {} as a C program, a Tcl program, etc.
00:25:46 <ihope_> main = getContents >>= putStr
00:25:58 <ihope_> Those all do nothing, but in different ways.
00:26:36 <pikhq> int main() {if(0==1) {printf("Hah! 0=1!");}}
00:26:42 <Asztal> Hmm, It's hard to fit much of a befunge program into 50x50 pixels :(
00:27:02 <pikhq> Asztal: Modern Befunge allows ooxoo pixels.
00:27:19 <Asztal> http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/images/avatars/61634.png is what I currently have
00:27:45 <Asztal> but it would be awesome if my avatar could factorise numbers or something
00:27:56 <Asztal> I guess I could make one that factorises primes...
00:28:38 <pikhq> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Braincopter
00:29:28 <Asztal> Lode visits the forums in question, if he saw it and ran it, that would be even better
00:29:41 <ihope_> pikhq: I meant they all do different kinds of nothing.
00:30:06 <ihope_> The first one exits immediately, the second one infinite loops without doing anything, and the third one just outputs its input.
00:30:14 <pikhq> ihope_: I know, I know. . .
00:30:50 <lament> YOU do different kinds of nothing.
00:30:52 <pikhq> if(0==1), assuming a good compiled, is turned into a NOP.
00:30:58 <pikhq> lament: Indeed, I do.
00:30:59 <ihope_> main = if unsafePerformIO main then False else True
00:31:30 <lament> what's unsadePerformIO?
00:31:52 <ihope_> unsafePerformIO :: IO a -> a
00:32:29 <lament> so that thing just infiniteloops and smashes the stack?
00:32:38 <ihope_> Something like that, yeah.
00:33:16 <ihope_> main = if unsafeCoerce# main then unsafeCoerce# 3 else unsafeCoerce# "whee"
00:33:28 <ihope_> That's not quite as boring, I'm sure.
00:44:35 <pikhq> Anyone know of a Brainfuck itoa implementation?
00:46:30 <ihope_> For outputting numbers?
00:47:02 <pikhq> Memory efficiency would be ideal.
00:51:28 <ihope_> So is Bitwise Cyclic Tag the simplest programming language or something?
00:51:38 <ihope_> It has three commands that do simple things.
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01:05:03 * pikhq just writes his own damned itoa
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13:57:50 <fr34k> everyone's asleep?
13:58:11 <jix> Razor-X: you here?
13:58:14 <fr34k> hey pikhq, i got a new language
13:59:25 <fr34k> so like i wrote it all down in a word-document..
13:59:50 <jix> fr34k: show show show!
14:00:02 * pikhq prepares to flog someone
14:00:56 <fr34k> ok, but like it's a word2k7 document..and its best viewed in that format..*.doc then, if i pastebin it, it could be messy, but why not
14:01:15 <fr34k> im uploading it to pastebin
14:01:30 <fr34k> oh yeh, btw pikhq, im aka boblol
14:01:56 <pikhq> Please, for the love of all that is holy, use a real office suite. . .
14:02:21 <pikhq> Microsoft Office refuses to support any sort of standards.
14:02:39 <pikhq> Standards which would allow me, a free software user, to view your documents.
14:02:41 <jix> fr34k: save it as rtf... more programs are able to open that
14:02:55 <fr34k> yeh, but i was thinking of uploading it to pastebin
14:03:13 <pikhq> OpenOffice.org is my personal recommendation.
14:03:26 <fr34k> as i said: im uploading it to pastebin
14:03:54 <pikhq> http://openoffice.org/ Give it a try. . .
14:04:29 <fr34k> i've tried openoffice..never really liked it..but that was some time ago..but can i first of all upload it to pb?
14:05:06 <lindi-> pikhq: do you know how can i print a file with openoffice from a cronjob?
14:06:12 <pikhq> lindi-: Not familiar with OpenOffice's command line options; sorry. Shouldn't be that hard to do, I'm just not sure how.
14:07:04 <fr34k> ok, here it is: http://pastebin.ca/177416
14:07:15 <lindi-> pikhq: it doesn't really do command line options
14:07:23 <fr34k> im not so good at english, so if you have any questions, go ahead
14:08:09 <lindi-> pikhq: i would also like to know how can i print a file with mozilla
14:08:22 <lindi-> please let me know if you ever figure it out
14:08:39 <pikhq> fr34k: I've got a project for this weekend.
14:09:06 <pikhq> Thanks for the weekend project.
14:09:15 <fr34k> you mean you're doin it?
14:12:10 <pikhq> Your description isn't that great, but your code examples more than make up for it.
14:12:24 <fr34k> haha, yeh im not good at explaining :P
14:12:42 <fr34k> but i think this idea/language, is much better than CUBSO, wich totally sucked :P
14:13:29 <pikhq> Probably wouldn't be hard to compile to C, actually. . .
14:13:45 <fr34k> perhaps no..i dont speak c so i dont know :P
14:13:59 <fr34k> but im goin to gothenburg this weekend, so i'll see how it went when i come back
14:14:28 <pikhq> BTW, s/array/variable/
14:14:30 <fizzie> lindi; By "print a file with mozilla" do you mean that, given a local HTML file, print it out (like the 'print' menu option does) without doing any interaction with it?
14:14:51 <fr34k> pikhq: s/array/variable ??
14:14:56 <lindi-> fizzie: or remote file, i guess mozilla could still do http to get it
14:14:57 <pikhq> I'll try doing a real array implementation that conforms to the syntax. . .
14:15:07 <pikhq> fr34k: You called variables "arrays".
14:15:15 <fr34k> yeh i forgot the word
14:15:22 <fr34k> so i used something else haha
14:15:35 <lindi-> fizzie: and if possible it would be cool to do this without an X server of course
14:15:40 <pikhq> An array, in this syntax, would be like this:
14:16:05 <pikhq> [a(0)=0][a(1)=5][a(2)=250]
14:16:11 <pikhq> There. A 3 element array.
14:16:27 <fr34k> so you said you are goin to add that function as well?
14:16:44 <pikhq> Not that hard to do, after all. ;)
14:16:51 <fr34k> haha, for me it is :P
14:17:11 <fr34k> btw, the language turned out to be quite complex, if you know what i mean
14:17:29 <pikhq> Doesn't seem all that complex to me.
14:17:51 <fr34k> well, not in that way, but like this line:
14:17:51 <fr34k> [a[=]10] [b[=]0][.[?[b[<=][a]]][![b[++]]],]
14:18:04 <fr34k> its quite hard to keep track of all [ and ]
14:18:44 <pikhq> That's an issue one gets with Lisp, too. Not terribly difficult.
14:18:56 <fr34k> hey wait a minute!
14:19:04 <fr34k> there's an error in your array syntax
14:19:09 <fr34k> it should be like this:
14:19:45 <pikhq> Hmm. Where's the while loop?
14:20:18 <pikhq> I see what amounts to an infinite loop. . .
14:20:20 <fizzie> lindi; My initial approach (this is from a Firefox perspective) would be to write some JavaScript for it. I think scripts ran from chrome:// urls can print without any user interaction, so you could use "firefox -chrome chrome://my-automagical-printing-extension/thing.xul <url-to-print>". The extension-writing wouldn't be completely trivial, though, and it'd be an ugly solution. And wouldn't work without X.
14:20:25 <pikhq> But no while loop.
14:20:41 <pikhq> Maybe add a command for "exit loop", and it could work.
14:20:56 <fr34k> could you explain while loop?
14:21:08 <pikhq> Without a while loop, I don't see how this could be Turing complete. . .
14:21:22 <pikhq> while (a==b) {/* do stuff */}
14:21:30 <fr34k> yeh, but how does a while loop work?
14:22:12 <fr34k> [#[a[==][b][.[b[++]],]]
14:22:31 <fr34k> where [#] is while
14:22:43 <fr34k> wasnt that hard .P
14:23:08 <pikhq> Just wasn't sure if you were *aware* of your lack of Turing completeness (which you've fixed).
14:23:28 <fr34k> nah, im not so good at those stuff :P
14:23:54 <pikhq> Well, you're learning, so I can't complain much. . .
14:26:40 <fizzie> lindi; Actually trying to use the browser for that sounds rather painful; almost painful enough to consider writing something that'd just use Gecko for rendering and printing. Haven't done any Mozilla hacking, so no idea how much work that would be.
14:26:50 <fizzie> lindi; Someone's doing exactly that at http://gecko.dynalivery.com/
14:27:21 <Asztal> probably lots of work.
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14:28:19 <boblol> btw i must leave the comp for a while..catched a flu, and when sitting in front of screen i get headache
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14:37:45 * boblol|afs starts playing metallica - nothing else matters on guitar
14:49:39 <lindi-> fizzie: yep that's only $ 12,000
14:51:22 <jix> who was the person who runs the contest?
14:53:28 <fizzie> lindi; Yes, well, I wasn't suggesting buying it from them.
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18:26:32 * Asztal wonders how he is going to implement wrapping in trefunge :|
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18:55:26 <pikhq> Asztal: With much pain.
18:57:37 <Asztal> I'm also wondering how fbbi ever did it with any efficiency, given it's interesting method of organising its space
18:58:41 * pikhq has learned one very, very simple thing about BFM. . .
18:59:01 <pikhq> I need to get some macros before I can write a *good* Brainfuck compiler in it.
19:01:04 <pikhq> Maybe write stuff to allow for that nice little array code I noticed.
19:07:02 <jix> Razor-X seems to be never here
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22:43:37 <Razor-X> Maybe you can have Firefox call lpr.
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22:51:29 <pikhq> Presumably she has a "life".
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22:52:34 <Razor-X> pikhq: Not really... sleep and school is all.
22:52:52 <Razor-X> Sleep == 5 hours, School == 8 hours. So I'm gone for about 13 hours of the day.
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23:06:55 <pikhq> calamari: In your "x = y(z)" algorithm, don't you mean "y, temp0, and temp1 must be contiguous", not "x, temp0, and temp1"?
23:08:21 <pikhq> And likewise, wouldn't the pointer end at y, not x?
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23:08:47 <pikhq> I *think* you just copied the description from the "x(y) = z" algorithm. . .
23:09:53 <calamari> could have.. haven't looked at that stuff in ages
23:10:49 <pikhq> I'm going to assume so, because anything else doesn't make any damned sense.
23:24:40 <SimonRC> OMGWTFBBQ! _Eragon_ movie!<exclamatory punctuation>!
23:25:37 <SimonRC> The real question is: Will it be bad enough to be good while not being bad enough to be so bad it isn't even so bad it's good?
23:29:50 <SimonRC> at my statement or the trailer
23:30:10 <SimonRC> http://pdl.stream.aol.com/aol/us/moviefone/movies/2006/eragon_022358/eragon_trlr_01_dl.mov
23:43:29 <pikhq> I've got half of my array code for BFM working.
23:43:48 <pikhq> The getarray macro doesn't work at all.
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00:09:40 <EgoBot> I hope this got carried over from the other Egobot session.
00:09:58 <GregorR-W> Daemons have an associated channel.
00:10:07 <pikhq> Just figured that out.
00:11:00 <EgoBot> Interchatroomal communication!
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00:17:38 <EgoBot> CakeProphet: EGOBOT WANT SEX
00:18:21 * Asztal presses F9 in a mysterious fashion
00:19:13 <CakeProphet> Hmmm... oh dear.. I need to find an application for parabolas and make a problem out of it...
00:19:23 <CakeProphet> Give me a problem or something... that's easy to draw :D
00:19:49 <pikhq> d/dx(x^2). Have fun.
00:24:55 <CakeProphet> Well, I need a real life application... which confounds me slightly.
00:24:57 <pikhq> Find the derivative of x^2.
00:25:26 <pikhq> Should be easy for at least *some* people in here. . .
00:26:06 <pikhq> Although, since you're working on algebra homework, I'm just being a dick by talking calculus. XD
00:27:06 <pikhq> GregorR-W: I'm afraid you're going to owe me a new keyboard if you keep that up.
00:28:15 <pikhq> Yup. You owe me a new keyboard.
00:28:35 <pikhq> CakeProphet: For the record, it's really i^(2x*pi).
00:28:45 <Asztal> GregorR-W: You're SO wrong.
00:29:49 <GregorR-W> Asztal: Damn, I was hoping nobody would notice!
00:30:04 <GregorR-W> It's actually (1/12)x^4+Ax+B where A and B are constants
00:31:47 <pikhq> (yay, confusing young students!)
00:33:16 <Asztal> I just realised this algorithm totally isn't going to work with negative numbers
00:37:22 <fizzie> I thought d/dx x^2 was \rho ( \frac{\partial u_\phi}{\partial t} + u_r \frac{\partial u_\phi}{\partial r} + \frac{u_r u_\phi}{r} + \frac{u_\theta}{r} \frac{\partial u_\phi}{\partial \theta} + \frac{u_\theta u_\phi \cot \theta}{r} + \frac{u_\phi}{r sin \theta} \frac{\partial u_\phi}{\partial \phi} )
00:37:38 <fizzie> No, wait... that's the beginning of one of the Navier-Stokes equations in spherical coordinates.
00:38:03 <pikhq> d/dx x^2 != d/dx x^2.
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00:38:23 <fizzie> (Ok, ok, it was shamelessly stolen from http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Navier-StokesEquations.html -- though I think we did do that particular coordinate conversion as an exercise.)
00:38:36 <pikhq> fizzie: I'm going to kill you, steal your brain, and use it for my next calculus test.
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00:39:11 <fizzie> No objections, if you really want to, but I wouldn't recommend it: I don't really know the stuff.
00:39:48 <pikhq> So, I'll just have to get As on the tests by myself.
00:46:48 <CakeProphet> Hey, what's the mathematical method for finding the parabolic path of an object that is being pulled around by a planets gravity?
00:47:09 <CakeProphet> Like a comet being "spun back around" in a parabolic path.
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01:09:36 <ihope> I don't suppose there's an existing channel anywhere that's about quantum mechanics.
01:09:42 <ihope> Other than ##quantum here, I mean.
01:13:07 <ihope> Any channels bigger than ###quantum?
01:14:18 <Asztal> I'm assuming you don't mean "longer name" by bigger :P
01:23:03 <pikhq> http://www.foxnews.com/index.html Fox, meet 1997 web design.
01:24:46 <pikhq> I'm accusing them of having paid some out-of-work web "developers" from 1997, using Frontpage, for their website.
01:26:44 <ihope> I don't know what '97 looked like, but that doesn't match my idea of '97.
01:27:00 <pikhq> Yeah, you're right. '97 looked better.
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01:27:13 <pikhq> Until you looked at the source, that is.
01:27:20 <ihope> I thought '97 was red-on-cyan and stuff.
01:27:33 <pikhq> HTML3.2. *shudder*
01:27:42 <ihope> With source that could have been written in Notepad.
01:27:57 <ihope> Using <p> and <h1> and all that stuff.
01:28:22 <pikhq> ihope: You. . . *do* realise that HTML written in a text editor ends up usually being a bit more sane, right?
01:29:04 <RodgerTheGreat> wait, wait, are you saying that there are tools other than text-editors for working with HTML?
01:29:13 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Sadly, yes.
01:30:24 <ihope> That's exactly what I meant by source that could have been written in Notepad.
01:30:48 <pikhq> Sadly, there are also tools other than a command line for manipulating one's computer.
01:31:09 <ihope> <html><head><title>oogity</title></head><body bgcolor="cyan"><font color="red">boogity</font></body></html>
01:31:31 <ihope> Hmm, I better abruptly go.
01:31:54 <feesh> <font> should be sent to the hell it came from
01:33:04 <pikhq> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
01:33:19 <pikhq> <title>Oogity!</title>
01:34:13 <pikhq> <body style="background: cyan">
01:34:17 <Asztal> <p>lalalallalalaaaaa</p>
01:34:34 <pikhq> <span style="color: red">boogity</span
01:35:11 <feesh> forgot to set an encoding
01:36:16 <feesh> since I can't remember what iso number it is, all my documents are UTF-8 :D
01:36:57 <feesh> 2 numbers I need to remember
01:37:30 <feesh> I can hardly remember the 14 digit code for money on animal crossing
01:37:56 <pikhq> Assume UTF8 unless I say otherwise.
01:38:14 <feesh> I wish I could tell the webbrowser that too
01:52:24 <pikhq> In XHTML, UTF-8 is the default. ;)
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02:01:27 <ihope> Oh, I implemented Bitwise Cyclic Tag in Microsoft Excel today.
02:01:52 <ihope> I was at school at the time. I don't think the teacher was saying anything important.
02:03:28 <pikhq> Most of BFM was done at school. ;)
02:03:42 <ihope> Was it done in Excel?
02:04:52 * ihope tcls pikhq with a feather
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03:21:48 <Razor-X> Hello discriminating coders of #esoteric. What's wrong here? --> http://paste.lisp.org/display/26416
03:24:05 <Razor-X> Yeah, it's very very imperative, but that'll change after I get it working.
03:29:41 <GregorR> "What's wrong here?" Answer: It's in Lisp.
03:30:20 <GregorR> Beautiful in a vomitous rage sort of way.
03:30:31 <Razor-X> Ah. You must love your order of precedence rules ;).
03:31:13 <GregorR> Do not love I polish notation.
03:31:54 <Razor-X> Yay! Memorization of useless rules for the win!
03:33:16 <pikhq> I'm quite used to Polish notation. . .
03:33:53 <Razor-X> Which is pretty much what this is.
03:34:05 <pikhq> It's a type superset of Lambda calculus.
03:34:59 <pikhq> And, therefore, any Lisp program is, in effect, math. :p
03:35:14 <Razor-X> It's a typed superset of math.
05:05:31 <lament> math is not in reverse polish notation.
05:08:10 <Razor-X> The 1.5 hour late response :).
05:10:02 <calamari> hmm. should use rpn for my small lang
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05:13:50 <lament> Razor-X: incorrect. Your conversation was 1.5 hour too early.
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11:52:16 <jix> Razor-X: you here?
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17:17:30 <calamari> it seems like it should be possible to parse RPN using yacc.. but it seems much easier to handle infix.. it automatically stays balanced
17:27:02 <lament> the best way to parse RPN is the Forth way.
17:28:25 <calamari> I'm not really familiar with Forth.. what do you mean?
17:29:08 <lament> forth has the simplest parsing ever.
17:29:26 <lament> it takes the next word from the stream, words being tokens separated by whitespace.
17:29:43 <lament> and decides, based on that word, what it's gonna do next.
17:29:57 <lament> so the only parsing involved is determining whether a character is a space or not.
17:30:06 <calamari> ahh, but I'm trying to use yacc
17:30:25 <lament> and the cool thing about Forth is that Forth commands can affect parser behavior
17:30:34 <lament> there's a special word "
17:30:59 <lament> once Forth encounters that word, the behaviour of the parser changes completely
17:31:12 <lament> now it reads everything up to the next " as one token
17:31:25 <lament> note that " is just a function, you can write your own functions like that.
17:31:43 <lament> extending the parser in arbitrary ways
17:31:50 <lament> another special word is (
17:32:09 <lament> when ( gets executed, it reads off everything until a matching ) and simply discards it.
17:32:14 <lament> so ( blah) is a comment.
17:32:28 <calamari> cool, I think I have it.. will have to check for conflicts:
17:32:55 <calamari> expr -> num | expr num + | expr num - | num expr + | num expr -
17:33:48 <calamari> an expression can be a number, or an expression followed by a number followed by + or ...
17:33:56 <lament> what's an expression, in RPN?
17:34:49 <calamari> that would be e => 1 e + => 1 2 e - + => 1 2 3 e + - + => 1 2 3 4 + - +
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17:43:16 <lament> see, forth avoids those problems completely :)
17:44:41 <calamari> hmm.. don't think I have it after all
17:44:53 <calamari> I can't seem to form 1 2 3 + 4 - +
17:45:03 <calamari> because the operators are always at the end
17:45:19 <lament> calamari: there's only one way to parse RPN.
17:45:37 <pikhq> calamari: With a stack.
17:46:12 <calamari> so you're saying that a LR(1) parser is incapable of parsing RPN?
17:46:24 <lament> calamari: RPN is already parsed, as long as you can split it into tokens.
17:46:26 <pikhq> Push 1, 2, and 3 onto stack. Do operation "plus" (pops 2 values from stack, add together, and push result).
17:46:30 <jix> expr => expr expr op | number
17:46:39 <pikhq> Push 4 onto stack. Do operation minus, then plus.
17:46:43 <jix> dunno wether LR(1) can parse that
17:47:00 <jix> but that should be rpn
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19:14:48 <calamari> this lang is looking more like linguine all the time :P
19:39:37 <calamari> was that supposed to make sense?
20:00:25 <lament> your FACE was supposed to make sense.
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21:38:13 <GregorR-W> Think about how stupid the average person. Now realize that if half the people were dumber than that, it would be the median you stupid goddamn bash quoted morons.
21:39:49 <lament> GregorR-W: considering that it's not at all unlikely that stupidity is normally distributed, it's quite possible that the median and the mean coincide.
21:42:40 <lament> well, i guess all those americans shift the weight to the left a bit.
21:43:50 <GregorR-W> American intelligence curve (from least to most): ..,,,---¯¯¯|_____
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22:03:51 <RodgerTheGreat> 5 days remaining in the 2006 esolang contest! Who has built/is building something impressive?
22:06:43 * GregorR-W pounds RodgerTheGreat's head against a wall.
22:07:35 * GregorR-W pounds RodgerTheGreat's head against a wall harder.
22:08:52 * RodgerTheGreat stabs GregorR-W, holds a gun against his head, and pulls the trigger. His lifeless corpse makes a feeble gesture of victory before collapsing in a heap. A ghostly voice says "Pwwwnnnz000rr3d..."
22:11:31 <GregorR-W> Pronounced pwənz zero zero zero (Spanish rolled r) three dee
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22:39:40 <Keymaker> non-esoteric question.. i'm writing a small .com program in nasm (for dos), and would like to know how can i access data is store in "db 100, 22, 33" at the end of the program. or well, doesn't matter where it is, i still have no idea how to access that data
22:41:31 <Asztalon> then... use SomeLabel as an address ?
22:51:01 <Keymaker> does anyone spot something wrong?
22:51:51 <Keymaker> the "mov dl, [data+bx]" is supposed to move byte from address data+bx but not sure if i did that correctly..
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22:53:18 <Keymaker> hmm.. it seems to print out character 4
22:56:09 <pikhq> GregorR-W: They said "average", but didn't specify "mean". . .
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22:56:45 <GregorR-W> pikhq: ... Are you trying to imply that, in your nomenclature, 'average' and 'mean' are not synonyms?
22:56:50 <pikhq> "Average" == "central tendency".
22:56:51 <Keymaker> (ps. the idea for making a language for ipod that's fast to type sounds interesting)
22:57:04 <pikhq> Mean, median, and mode are *all* measurements of central tendency.
22:57:36 <pikhq> Admitedly, "average" is *usually* used to mean "mean", but it doesn't necessarily mean just that.
22:57:50 <pikhq> \end{analretentive}
23:05:26 <Keymaker> works now, i added a "org 100h" to the beginning
23:13:25 <Asztal> maybe: times (100 - ($-$$)) db ?
23:17:04 <Asztal> I just remember reading it in some nasm pdf
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23:55:54 <ihope> I mean... Ahh, Dvorak.
23:57:31 <ihope> Hey, you're not the one typing at 20 WPM.
23:57:43 <pikhq> No, I'm typing at 70wpm ATM.
23:57:53 * ihope switches back to QWERTY
00:00:16 <GregorR-W> Never been able to program in it though...
00:00:27 <lament> dvorak is for losers who want to be "different"
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00:05:22 <ihope> What do winners who want to be different use?
00:06:08 <ihope> An alphabetically arranged keyboard?
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00:58:46 <Keymaker> yes! :) works. i made a bmp that shows as a picture, and if you run it as com it prints out the exact data of itself. thus, a quine. as well, it uses data part as a quine should, instead of reading the program directly from memory that dos probably would allow
00:59:48 <pikhq> That'd be more impressive if it were used as an x86 Linux ELF. XD
01:00:00 <pikhq> Should work just fine on FreeDOS, though. ;)
01:00:26 <ihope> AgentWhite: even COM files that begin with the string "MZ"?
01:00:35 <ihope> Or is the string "MZ" actually nothing special?
01:02:07 <Keymaker> there was annoying problem in the process of making it.. what i read was that microsoft itself defined that their bmp format should allow, for some reason, some header data larger than 40 bytes. but when i tried that it seems only the ms paint could open such picture, and paint shop pro and opera and so on, couldn't. i read that few programs ever adapted to that +40 header data thing, and so it is that even windows image viewer or whatever
01:02:39 <Keymaker> so, i had to use another way; i extended the data part by one extra byte, and increased the total size in bytes by one
01:02:52 <Keymaker> that was the only way to get an odd number as total size in bytes
01:03:30 <Keymaker> and thus get a jump instruction from the beginning
01:03:31 <pikhq> MZ is the magic number for a DOS EXE, yeah. . .
01:03:47 <AgentWhite> .com's don't have a magic number, do they?
01:03:57 <Keymaker> anyways, programs don't seem to care if there is extra 144 in the end of the file, as they all open it correctly
01:04:32 <Keymaker> likely because the width and height are told in the bmp file
01:04:35 <ihope> I thought MZ was the magic number thing.
01:04:35 * Asztal wonders if his befunge bmp-to-tga converter would open it
01:04:56 <Keymaker> and, i think there is something, wait. "BM"
01:05:11 <pikhq> There are many "EXE" formats, though. . .
01:05:41 <pikhq> AgentWhite: That's the Portable Executable format.
01:05:49 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EXE
01:05:52 <Keymaker> i got confused because i looked with hex editor to this pic:)
01:06:06 <AgentWhite> A raw dump can't really have a magic number :)
01:06:54 <pikhq> AgentWhite: But there are formats older then PE.
01:06:59 <AgentWhite> ihope: You could write a .com program by running a .exe program, stopping it, then cat /dev/mem > blah.com :P
01:07:25 <pikhq> AgentWhite: The magic number MZ is used for DOS .EXE format.
01:07:35 <AgentWhite> pikhq: I thought DOS .exe's were based on COFF as well?
01:07:45 <ihope> Running an .exe program, then using cat and /dev/mem?
01:07:49 <ihope> What operating system is this?
01:07:58 <pikhq> http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/doc/exe/ Does that look like COFF?
01:08:11 <AgentWhite> ihope: I'm just saying that a .com is basically a dump of memory.
01:08:32 <AgentWhite> pikhq: OK, OK, sorry I don't know my esoteric/obsolete binary formats by heart :P
01:08:42 <pikhq> AgentWhite: Wikipedia.
01:09:17 <AgentWhite> "(in DJGPP, the size of the stub and the start of the COFF image)"
01:09:35 <pikhq> ihope: All that DOS does with a COM file is load it into 0x0100 and jump to that address. Not very complex. . .
01:10:56 <AgentWhite> OK, OK, OK, I don't know my obsolete file formats, whatev ;)
01:11:15 <pikhq> AgentWhite: Nor do I.
01:11:28 <pikhq> AgentWhite: I use Wikipedia as a natural brain supplement; you should, too. :p
01:12:06 <Keymaker> http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/stuff/quine8.bmp
01:13:32 <AgentWhite> Does it need that grey section to be grey?
01:14:44 <ihope> It has a grey section.
01:14:53 <ihope> Does it need to be grey?
01:15:21 <AgentWhite> If Keymaker understands what ihope just said, I need to relearn English :P
01:15:57 <Keymaker> this doesn't probably answer your question, but so much gray is because the pic has plenty of nops, so that it's dimensions would be large enough to make the byte-in-sizes value a JMP with large enough value
01:16:34 <Keymaker> it wouldn't necessarily, but that'd require a lot changes to the program
01:16:35 <AgentWhite> So, can those nops be replaced with, say, a jump past all the nops and some data that would end up being a pretty picture?
01:16:49 <Keymaker> and i'm not going to do that, at least not for a while, if ever :)
01:16:53 <ihope> Wouldn't that output the thing with grey?
01:18:44 <Keymaker> agentwhite: well, you could replace the nops with something else, at least part of them, but you need also space from your picture for having the data part
01:19:52 <Keymaker> and of course, this code wouldn't work
01:19:52 <Keymaker> i mean, in this program you can't just randomly change those nops
01:20:56 <Keymaker> and ihope: i still can't what you're talking about grey :D
01:21:40 <Keymaker> but it doesn't matter :) i'll terminate for this evening. night.
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03:17:16 <CakeProphet> It's flesible and all, but it's so... tediooous..
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18:34:22 <SimonRC> Oooh: newsquiz on radio 4 now.
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20:56:34 <SimonRC> the only binary operations are select and mingle.
20:57:34 <SimonRC> (I was talking to him about INTERCAL.)
20:58:14 <Asztal> Mingle is actually a useful operation for implementing a befunge interpreter
20:58:48 <Asztal> sort of. INTERCAL's other restrictions get in the way a bit.
20:59:46 <Asztal> You could use Morton numbers for keys in a binary tree
20:59:55 <Asztal> but, I've yet to see a binary tree in INTERCAL
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21:00:15 <SimonRC> Asztal: some dynamic allocation would be necessary
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21:25:33 <fr34k> well i mean; is he available?
21:26:31 <SimonRC> he last said something at 12:36UTC
21:27:24 <fr34k> and what is it now?
21:28:37 <fr34k> wich means its quite a small chance i get a hold of him?
21:29:48 <Asztal> Apparently he's idle for 1 hours, 57 minutes, 16 seconds. So probably, yes.
21:30:41 <SimonRC> where did you get the idle time from?
21:30:56 <Asztal> in my client, I do /wii <name>
21:31:15 <fizzie> In most clients, you can do "/whois <name> <name>"
21:31:37 <fizzie> The latter argument (or is it the former?) is the server to ask from.
21:31:48 <fizzie> So with '<name> <name>' it asks from the irc server used by <name>.
21:32:05 <fizzie> (Which replies with idle-time and away-message; servers further away generally don't.)
21:32:38 <fizzie> In my client (irssi) /WII is, by default, an alias for "whois $0 $0".
21:32:51 <SimonRC> In irssi, at least, "/wii" is a macro for "/whois $0 $0"
21:33:11 <SimonRC> Hey! you are a man/woman of taset
21:34:28 <fizzie> I thought irssi was the semi-standard irc client nowadays, having replaced ircii/epic for most people. (At least that's the case with people I know, which might not be a representative sample.)
21:35:45 <SimonRC> irssi is still CLI-only, though
21:36:07 <SimonRC> correction: irssi is still text-mode-only, though
21:36:17 * Asztal actually uses chatzilla :o
21:36:41 <fizzie> There was a GTK/Gnome interface included with the main sources at some point, but I guess it got a bit outdated.
21:38:38 <fizzie> A GUI for irssi was one of their Google-Summer-of-Code projects.
21:38:48 <SimonRC> real programmers telnet to port 6667
21:40:14 <Asztal> with a telnet program written in <insert esolang>
21:41:40 <fizzie> Don't see any news as to what happened with the SoC projects. Or any news at all after May 2nd. (Back when cras was still writing irssi, at least one could get bugs fixed by privmsging patches; with this new dev-team I don't have that luxury, since I don't feel comfortable talking to strangers.)
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21:44:34 <jwest-> if irssi became gui, then i think its falling out on exactly why the project began even
21:45:00 <fizzie> My experiences with X-Chat haven't been pleasant. (Although that's not quite fair; haven't tried it in years, it might have gotten better.)
21:45:23 <fizzie> It does have a rather clean backend/frontend specification, so one _could_ write a GUI without ruining it for people who don't want it.
21:45:33 <fizzie> The "It" here meaning irssi, of course.
21:46:20 <jwest-> i dont like it either but seems they've implemented screen
21:46:23 <jwest-> so i might want to try
21:46:29 <jwest-> thats one big feature it was missing out on
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23:15:23 <ihope> I sense an operator.
23:16:07 <ihope> Maybe my senses are broken.
23:16:32 <ihope> But they're saying that fizzie did *something* recently.
23:16:50 <ihope> About two minutes ago.
23:17:12 <ihope> Now some over two minutes ago.
23:24:38 <SimonRC> challange: get to the thirtieth page (which will tell you that you win). http://n.nfshost.com/1.html There are a couple of evil puzzels. And you will need to use other sites a couple of times, and some tools that any geek will have to hand (simple UNIX CLI stuff).
23:24:51 * SimonRC goes to bed (good luck with the puzzles).
23:25:35 <GregorR-W> Challenge: Stare at the goatse picture, unflinching, for ten minutes straight.
23:29:28 <Asztal> I would scale it down to 1x1 pixels, but I think it would still be bad.
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00:24:50 <ihope> I hereby decree that since the terriotory quantifies that lizard, the eye unrolls the jury.
00:31:09 <fizzie> I don't think I did much anything; especially I did not do anything related to IRC.
00:34:38 * ihope throws fizzie into a bag and fills it with scum
00:35:04 <fizzie> 2. scum -- (a film of impurities or vegetation that can form on the surface of a liquid)
00:37:31 <GregorR-W> Yes. Then we glean it off, put it in a bag, and put you in the bag.
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05:49:33 <calamari> ahh Gregor.. didn't realize it was you
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08:40:57 <SimonRC> Anyone who studies esoteric programming languages must be sick.
08:46:38 <nooga> i'm also extremely unhappy
09:04:06 <nooga> http://youtube.com/watch?v=gg5_mlQOsUQ
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09:09:33 <SimonRC> That remnids me of the episode of _Time Trumpet_ with the hymn sponsored by Kellogs. Very clever.
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09:12:56 <nooga> http://youtube.com/watch?v=1e0s1qBm9_I
09:28:32 <SimonRC> (Step 1: create important file called foo.txt. Step 2: run the command :>foo.txt Step 3: notice how foo.txt is now empty)
09:31:47 <SimonRC> : is the null command, and the > replaces the contents of the suppiled file with the output of the command.
09:40:19 <nooga> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAa
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10:09:22 <nooga> ...80% alcohol to get rid of thoughts that r torturing my head, and i think it may help me to invent some new, revolutional esolang
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10:14:57 -!- nooga has left (?).
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10:15:12 <nooga> hm, trying hydraIRC
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11:35:56 <nooga> det er en overraskelse a se dem her ;-)
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11:52:41 <kipple_> en overraskelse? jeg er jo her nesten hver dag :)
11:54:18 <nooga> men jeg ser ikke deg
12:00:39 <SimonRC> "One to actually change the lightbulb, and twenty to make up the accompanying lightbulb jokes."
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12:40:59 * nooga is thinking about her
12:55:10 <jix> i need a name for a simple shoot em up game
13:07:44 <nooga> here it is: "kill'em all"
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14:41:25 <SimonRC> Oh noes! NewScientist is teh sux0r! http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2006/09/a_plea_to_save_new_scientist.html
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15:41:35 * pikhq has become a fan of gNewSense. . .
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18:48:08 * pikhq finally got around to proving BFM Turing complete. . .
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19:08:18 <SimonRC> Make pikhq expand the acronym BFM.
19:08:44 <pikhq> Have I been on ignore by you or something?
19:12:57 <pikhq> Meh. I've gotten sick of BFM for now.
19:22:14 * CakeProphet praises the almighty power of the dictionary.
19:27:28 * pikhq attempts to figure out BFBASIC. . .
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19:31:38 <ihope> BFM isn't a superset of BF?
19:39:22 <pikhq> I just decided to formally prove that it's Brainfuck complete, for no reason.
20:11:58 <calamari> getting useless nonterminal and useless rule messages from yac.. wonder what I'm doing wrong
20:13:36 <calamari> GregorR: btw, I found a channel you're not in.. #ipodlinux ;)
20:13:50 <SimonRC> calamari: I know what's wrong.
20:14:34 <pikhq> calamari: You're not using sexps.
20:15:01 <SimonRC> calamari: You are using a language which requires a parser generator because it doesn't have the power to do parsers properly. The solution is to use a more powerful programming language.
20:15:31 * SimonRC recommends Haskell + Parsec
20:15:35 <calamari> SimonRC: I've been wanting to learn these tools for a long time .. hehe
20:16:47 <calamari> GregorR: btw, you should be able to use start conditions to simplify your /* */ scanning
20:17:20 * GregorR-L has no idea what project calamari is referring to ...
20:17:49 <GregorR-L> I didn't write the parser for it, I downloaded it :P
20:18:47 <calamari> so nobody here knows how to use bison then.. lol
20:19:03 <calamari> guess we all just like to roll our own
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20:31:09 <pikhq> calamari: I prefer to just make a language which can be parsed by Tclsh for me. :p
20:32:29 <Asztal> Well, I can use Boost.Spirit. That's a rather nice parser generator.
20:32:45 <Asztal> Where nice == add 5 minutes to your compilation time
20:34:06 <SimonRC> B.S seems to consist mostly of buzzwords: "an object oriented recursive descent parser framework implemented using template meta-programming techniques"
20:34:19 <SimonRC> I assume it is good, though.
20:34:46 <GregorR-L> Yeah, that sounds /really/ good :P
20:36:15 <Asztal> It's nice and ... dynamic, at least
20:36:29 <Asztal> you could, I believe, construct rules at runtime too
20:38:13 <SimonRC> AFAICT, the Parsec parser library is one-of-a-kind, though.
20:38:51 <SimonRC> Boost.Spirit looks very like a Pyhon parser library I tried to use once.
21:30:39 <CakeProphet> Is there a way, in Python, to turn a variable name into a string?
21:31:13 <CakeProphet> Without actually returning the variables value.
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17:09:00 <tgwizard> SimonRC, did you post a link to that "game" about two nights ago?
17:21:44 <tgwizard> you said that you needed some CLI-tools
17:22:36 <tgwizard> how many pages did you "complete"?
17:23:26 <SimonRC> A search engine woul be very helpful for one of them.
17:27:06 <jix> i don't get 13...
17:27:47 <jix> no i'll get it myself
17:28:42 <SimonRC> I meant send me the URL so I can see where you are stuck
17:29:14 <jix> but i'll stop here
17:29:36 <SimonRC> jix: What nationality are you?
17:31:28 -!- clog has joined.
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17:34:56 <SimonRC> some of us are doing n.nfshost.com/1.html
17:36:04 <SimonRC> each is on its own page, and you have to work out the URL fo the next page from the contents of the current page
17:36:31 <fr34k> cant do that right now though
17:36:42 <SimonRC> knowing a little about how web pages work helps in two of the puzzles.
17:36:59 <fr34k> but im gonna format some of my drives on my server
17:38:59 <fr34k> im already at 9th :P i think..sept is the ninth huh?
17:40:35 <SimonRC> pages 18 and 28 (IIRC) are *evil*
17:41:40 <fr34k> i cant get past the one saying 'sept' :P
17:42:46 <SimonRC> what subjects are you doing at school and what year are you in?
17:42:50 <tgwizard> well, i live in sweden and I made past 7
17:43:37 <fr34k> im 9th year of school..
17:43:44 <fr34k> isnt sept short for september?
17:43:55 <SimonRC> fr34k: I think you are on the 7th puzzle
17:44:17 <SimonRC> as you have found out, that is not the meaning of "sept" for that question
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17:46:50 <SimonRC> Formally: you must find a function that turns 7 into "sept", then apply that function to 8 to help find the URL of the next question.
17:47:05 -!- fr34k has quit (Nick collision from services.).
17:47:16 <SimonRC> I have no idea how to hint to you what that function *is*, without just telling you.
17:47:51 -!- boblol has joined.
17:48:05 <boblol> but i cant associate sept with 7 :P
17:48:06 <SimonRC> I have no idea how to hint to you what that function *is*, without just telling you.
17:48:21 <boblol> im just gonna think some more
17:48:41 <boblol> cuz i really cant see wehre sept has to do with 7
17:49:22 <SimonRC> The author is making a reference to a look-up table from numbers to strings that he assumes everyone will know the beginning of.
17:50:11 <boblol> since it didnt was september, i have no clue
17:50:15 <SimonRC> This look-up table is reasonably well-known in England, but probably less-so in Sweden.
17:50:58 <boblol> sept is 7 in another language?
17:51:21 <boblol> oh so im known as boblol now? great
17:51:56 <SimonRC> Just use /name fr34k to change back, then
17:52:26 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
17:52:36 <SimonRC> and don't give out too many clue on-channel
17:52:38 <boblol> but i just found out, that 111, wich the document is called, is also 7 in the binary system
17:53:23 <boblol> then i just need to sort out how it would be in 8
17:54:00 <SimonRC> binary for 8 is 1000, but that is nothing to do with anything
18:03:01 <boblol> hey how do i register nick now again?
18:03:32 <SimonRC> start with /msg nickserv help
18:03:59 <SimonRC> futher commands can be typed into the result new window/tab.
18:04:02 <boblol> cuz SimonRC: i sent you some pm's but couldnt cuz my nick wasnt registered
18:04:28 <SimonRC> someone alread took "fr34k", BTW
18:06:25 <SimonRC> individal servers don't matter much in IRC, the network is what matterss
18:06:36 <boblol> ok, cuz i registered the nick fr34k
18:07:53 <SimonRC> and when did you last identify to nickserv?
18:07:57 <boblol> i dunno, some time ago
18:09:58 <SimonRC> well do "/msg nickserv help" and find out how to use it.
18:10:12 <SimonRC> it may have been nicked if you never identified
18:10:20 <SimonRC> it may have been *stolen* if you never identified
18:10:49 <boblol> well i tried identify, but it only said "no such nick/channel
18:11:33 <SimonRC> what client are you using?
18:12:20 <SimonRC> in this window, try typing "/msg nickserv help"
18:13:30 <boblol> give me a list of commands in the status window
18:13:47 <boblol> im gonna try "recover" wich kills someone who might have stolen it
18:14:02 <SimonRC> try "/query nickserv" in this window
18:15:06 <boblol> it said that the password for fr34k was incorrect
18:15:28 <SimonRC> did you give a password in the IDENTIFY command?
18:15:42 <boblol> look: i registered on the DALnet server, ok?
18:16:13 <SimonRC> is DALnet related to freenode?
18:16:25 <boblol> its two completely diff servers
18:16:58 <SimonRC> I think they are both IRC networks, not irc servers
18:17:35 <boblol> irc.freenode.net and irc.dal.net
18:18:02 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:18:28 <boblol> but right now, im trying to solve one of the puzzles :P
18:18:46 <boblol> im on "13, unlucky ..."
18:19:11 <SimonRC> Freenode and DALnet are seperate IRC networks, and so (as you seem to have figures out) registering on DALnet will not register you on Freenode.
18:19:31 <boblol> therefore, i dont care right now
18:19:32 <SimonRC> (unless freenode and DALnet have a special arrangement)
18:19:35 <boblol> i must solve the puzzle
18:19:43 <boblol> i dont think they do, bte
18:20:05 <boblol> ok so i done some research of "13, unlucky" but dont seem to find anything
18:20:13 <boblol> i found stuff, but none has wored
18:23:57 <SimonRC> It's an English and American phrase.
18:24:55 <boblol> thats why i dont now :P
18:29:17 <tgwizard> well, for me google was enough
18:29:20 <boblol> though i dont find anything
18:39:59 -!- boblol has changed nick to boblol|food.
19:01:26 -!- boblol|food has changed nick to boblol.
19:10:25 <boblol> i wrote a little algorithm program :P
19:17:02 <lament> i wrote a little unalgorithm program
19:19:53 <boblol> here is my program: http://bicyclol.awardspace.biz/algo.php?num=59
19:20:19 <SimonRC> An algorithm is a set of instructions to calculate something.
19:20:48 <boblol> but lemme explain how this prog works
19:21:22 <boblol> you have a number, lets say 12, then you reverse this and add it to the first number: 12+21=33, then you cant do it anymore, cuz 33 is a palindrome
19:21:38 <boblol> as the sequence for 59: 59, 154, 605, 1111
19:21:54 <boblol> then it cant be calculated anymore, since 1111 is a palindrome
19:21:59 <SimonRC> I wouldn;t call that an *algorithm*
19:22:09 <boblol> well then dont, i dunno what it is called :P
19:24:29 <boblol> has pikhq been inactive for a long time?
19:26:25 <ihope> I'd call it a function.
19:27:20 <boblol> its called the reverse-then-add sequence
19:28:08 <SimonRC> revadd n = let sh = show n in let rev = reverse sh in if sh == rev then n else n + read rev
19:28:10 <boblol> has pikhq been inactive for long?
19:28:35 <SimonRC> take 100 $ iterate revadd $ 169
19:28:44 <SimonRC> to get the first 100 numbers generated
19:37:59 <boblol> now, i ask again: has pikhq been inactive for long time?
19:39:02 <ihope> I'd say this: revadd x = let {rev x = read (reverse (show x))} in x + rev x
19:40:11 <boblol> shall i get you a link to the php-source?
19:42:12 <fizzie> ihope; I don't think your version checks for the terminating palindrominicity condition.
19:43:34 <boblol> speak of wich: http://www.norvig.com/pal2txt.html
19:59:21 <deltab> SimonRC: why wouldn't you call that an algorithm?
20:03:15 <ifndef_GREGOR_H> Hahahah, Star Trek rocks: "Assist this boy to the quaranteen antiroom." ... it's an anti-room? What is it, a room made of antimatter? A room with negative proportions?
20:05:57 <deltab> ante-room: the room before a main room that you wait in
20:06:34 <fizzie> 1. anteroom, antechamber, entrance hall, hall, foyer, lobby, vestibule -- (a large entrance or reception room or area)
20:07:03 <fizzie> That is the expected response, yes.
20:19:04 <boblol> anyone know how long pikhq has been inactive?
20:20:15 -!- ifndef_GREGOR_H has changed nick to GregorR.
20:22:35 <fizzie> If you mean "completely said nothing in IRC", you can just ask your client.
20:22:45 <fizzie> 22:22:16 [freenode] ... idle : 0 days 4 hours 23 mins 39 secs [signon: Thu Sep 14 16:14:31 2006]
20:23:39 <boblol> so he hasnt said anything for 4 hrs?
20:23:40 <fizzie> As for this channel, last comment I see here is "17:58:37 < pikhq> 'Lo." around four-and-a-half hours ago.
20:23:58 <boblol> then what is that "idle-check" command?
20:24:23 <fizzie> Quite often "/whois <name> <name>" will work; "/wii <name>" is a common alias for that.
20:24:45 <boblol> anyone know if he has like msn etc?
20:26:43 <boblol> i dunno, need to contact him
20:27:16 <ihope> Let's see... http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User_talk:pikhq
20:28:03 <ihope> You could try MemoServ, but I don't know if anybody pays attention to that.
20:28:22 <boblol> or i just wait to see if he comes in
20:38:34 <fizzie> You can go see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pikhq
20:38:50 <fizzie> It lists some forms of communication.
20:38:55 <fizzie> And there's always email.
20:40:14 <Razor-X> He's probably doing something BF related.
20:41:02 <boblol> he said he was goin to make my esolang idea reality this weekend so perhaps that is what he does
20:41:15 <Razor-X> Mmmm... I'm running really short on time this weekend... sorry contestants/committee.
20:43:01 <Razor-X> What's your Esolang idea, out of curiosity?
20:43:11 <Razor-X> (I don't have time to do anything more than lau... errr look at it.)
20:44:10 <boblol> i have a very bad explanation lying on pastebin
20:45:45 <boblol> now remember: this idea is (c) me
20:45:46 <boblol> http://pastebin.ca/177450
20:46:04 <Razor-X> And one question for #esoteric's members: When doing DSP with logic circuits and making a high/low-pass filter, do you just use an FFT and then junk the frequencies above/below a certain band?
20:46:09 <boblol> now the explanation is really bad, i suck at english
20:46:34 <Razor-X> OSI approved license please.
20:46:50 <Razor-X> Creative Commons, LGPL, GPL, MIT, etc.
20:47:47 <boblol> forget about (c) ok? im just trying to say that the idea is mine, and mine alone
20:47:59 <Razor-X> Trust me, I'm not going to steal your idea :P.
20:48:56 <Razor-X> What's the esotericness in it, though?
20:49:07 <boblol> well i dunno, pikhq just liked it
20:49:22 <Razor-X> It's pretty nifty syntax, I must say. But it's not esoteric enough.
20:49:39 <boblol> then explain the word 'esoteric'
20:50:20 <Razor-X> Does your language have functions?
20:50:46 <Razor-X> Like ``void blah { blah }; blah();''
20:51:00 <boblol> uh..check the explanation
20:51:45 <Razor-X> How can you make a block of code so you can use it later?
20:52:06 <boblol> urg. im sry but i dont understand..make it ultra-basic-simple
20:53:01 <Razor-X> What programming languages do you know?
20:53:46 <boblol> php, html, actionscript, brainfuck
20:55:16 <Razor-X> PHP is the only language (among those) that has functions....
20:55:55 <boblol> uh, i beleive actionscript has functions as well
20:56:08 <Razor-X> Can you make functions in your language?
20:56:44 <boblol> then you must first explain what you mean by "functions"..cuz all it can do now, is calculate every kind of data that can be calculated
20:57:04 <Razor-X> It's hard in basic English....
20:58:01 <Razor-X> A function is a bunch of code that is called with a name (like ``add'' or ``subtract''). Whenever you ``call'' it, or use its name, the code the function stands for is executed.
20:59:04 <boblol> cuz you have If, Else If, While loop, standard loop
20:59:21 <Razor-X> like add (x y) {return (x + y);} then ``add(4 5);'' you get `9'.
20:59:56 <boblol> oh you mean like that..well first of all: actionscript supports that, but no, my language does not have that
21:00:03 <SimonRC> IIRC, PHP calls them "subs" or "subroutines"
21:00:34 <fizzie> PHP calls them "functions."
21:00:39 <fizzie> See http://www.php.net/manual/en/language.functions.php
21:00:42 <Razor-X> Subroutines, methods, functions, lambda expressions, Monadic function execution, IT'S THE SAME BLOODY THING.
21:00:50 <fizzie> You must be confusing PHP with Perl, which uses the keyword "sub".
21:01:11 <Razor-X> Why must programmers be so obtuse?! ;-;
21:01:51 <ihope> Lambda expressions and subroutines... aren't really the same thing, are they?
21:02:11 <Razor-X> Named lambda expressions. Happy ?
21:02:24 <ihope> Lambda expressions that return actions?
21:02:32 <ihope> Those'll make me happy.
21:02:42 <Razor-X> Lambda expressions that return actions.
21:02:58 <Razor-X> I'm going to be doing my science project entirely in Scheme and using only GNU utilities.
21:02:59 * ihope suddenly becomes happy
21:05:16 <fizzie> What, no Hurd there? :p
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21:36:09 <fizzie> I would certainly think it is.
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22:26:01 <SimonRC> :-D http://thedailywtf.com/forums/thread/92905.aspx
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23:28:15 <calamari> here is a test line from my ipod lang.. still figuring some things out: W1L1=2L2=3I1L3=4EL4=5$$
23:42:58 <kipple_> it is supposed to be writeable, not readable ;)
23:43:34 <Razor-X> That's what I was thinking ;)
23:43:39 <Razor-X> Why not implement BF on an iPod?
23:43:59 <Razor-X> If pikhq was here, he'd be proud of me now.
23:44:49 <pikhq> I'm here, and I'm proud. :)
23:47:00 <Razor-X> I love the AP Physics C formula sheet. It's identical to the B sheet, with more sigmas, more d's, and a few integral signs. Plus, almost all the Calculus has been done for you in a little corner of the formula sheet, or the Integrals have been expanded to sigmas for you. Hooray future American engineers!
23:49:38 <calamari> the ipod isn't very fast.. so I need a lang that compiles efficiently and is able to use more of the instruction set
23:49:59 <calamari> Razor-X: I'm sure there is.. but that is the other problem: bad keyboard interface
23:50:20 <Razor-X> You can't transfer programs to the iPod?
23:50:38 <calamari> but I want to write programs on the ipod as well
23:50:45 <Razor-X> BF's command set is trivial.
23:51:14 <calamari> bf isn't a good match for the above mentioned reasons
23:51:32 <calamari> of course I'll probably write bf stuff just for fun :)
23:51:44 <Razor-X> Think about it. Portable BF!
23:52:01 <calamari> already have that on my hp and casio cals tho
23:52:03 <pikhq> Razor-X: He did write BF Audio.
23:55:52 <calamari> probably a little more readable with whitespace added: http://rafb.net/paste/results/1l3NPb28.html
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00:58:12 <Razor-X> I need to learn TI-ASM and code BF for that.
00:59:01 <calamari> that must be for the newer TI's
00:59:19 <calamari> I wrote my BF interp on the ti-82
00:59:25 <pikhq> I need to learn RPL.
00:59:44 <pikhq> Reverse Polish Lisp.
01:00:04 <calamari> I need to learn ARM assembly language
01:00:05 <pikhq> It's the builtin language on my calculator.
01:00:25 <pikhq> Although I might want to bother figuring out how to get GCC-HP working, isntead.
01:00:40 <Razor-X> That's awesome. I want Lisp on my calculator ;-;
01:00:47 <Razor-X> Well.... it's a pain on that horrible keyboard.
01:00:59 <pikhq> Also, the HP ROM is free sofware. . .
01:01:08 <Razor-X> We're required to have TIs.
01:01:13 <calamari> what's wrong with the ht keyboard?
01:01:26 <Razor-X> I'm not sure about HP's keyboard, but the TI keyboards are uggh.
01:01:40 <Razor-X> I should grab that one implementation of Scheme for the Palm.
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01:08:11 <Razor-X> Does anyone know where one can get old laptops on t3h cheap?
01:14:22 <RodgerTheGreat> if you live anywhere near a university, try to find the location of their "Property Disposition Center".
01:14:52 <Razor-X> I live sorta near Stanford.
01:15:07 <RodgerTheGreat> I went to U of M's dispo center for several years- always a good place to look for cheap, obsolete parts.
01:15:35 <Razor-X> I need to slap a form of GNU Linux on the thing. I need to be in perfect control of the environment for the project, and for that I need GNU Linux.
01:15:44 <RodgerTheGreat> I bought a 200mhz powerbook for $75 there once- pretty good deal considering the battery was in perfect condition.
01:15:51 <Razor-X> Hopefully it can support a 2.6 kernel so I can play with ALSA's OSS emulator layer.
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01:16:46 <Razor-X> Well, I'll probably be needing an X server of some sort (XVesa is my guess), GNUPlot to make life easier, and if possible, the capability to run Chicken.
01:17:06 <RodgerTheGreat> you sure Bochs or the like wouldn't suit your purposes better? Emulating a machine probably wouldn't be much slower than using an obsolete laptop, and you'd have more configuration control.
01:17:42 <Razor-X> Nope. I just need a show for the science fair people.
01:18:07 <Razor-X> Does QEmu work in Windows?
01:18:20 <pikhq> Razor-X: One can do ALSA on 2.4.
01:18:40 <calamari> Razor-X: yeah Qemu works in windows
01:18:45 <Razor-X> pikhq: But I need the OSS Wrapper.
01:18:58 <pikhq> Razor-X: And the OSS wrapper also works in 2.4.
01:19:28 <pikhq> ALSA, after all, was originally just some additional 2.4 modules (xor 2.4 patch). ;)
01:20:01 <Razor-X> I hope mplayer can work too, so I don't have to write C wrapper code.
01:20:41 <calamari> Razor-X: http://www.h7.dion.ne.jp/~qemu-win/
01:21:06 <Razor-X> I'm going to be writing everything.
01:21:36 <Razor-X> Although I'll need to graduate from the transfer function ;).
01:22:16 <Razor-X> Heh. I had to argue my dad into submission to believe it though.
01:22:28 <Razor-X> Finally he says ``You're too bullheaded to refuse, so whatever.''
01:24:04 <RodgerTheGreat> neural nets are really one of the best examples of pure success in AI research.
01:24:22 <RodgerTheGreat> by designing your net and training algos properly, they can achieve amazing results.
01:24:22 <Razor-X> The thing is, I noticed while reading the DSP books that convolution is just the application of a weighted average on the input signal. I was thinking of having the NN's weights emulate the convolution signal (well, that'll be one of the experiments, I'll be abstracting it to many different levels) and see if it can beat the algorithms already written.
01:25:24 <RodgerTheGreat> advancing the state of the art is a surefire way to win in a contest.
01:25:43 <RodgerTheGreat> speaking of which, have you received any submissions yet?
01:26:03 <Razor-X> I've been *very* busy this weekend up till now, and I'll be busy in a few minutes for test studying.
01:26:18 <Razor-X> pikhq submitted his a long time ago, other than that, I haven't had the time to check.
01:26:45 <Razor-X> I have AP Physics formulas to memorize which is easy, but a whole bunch of US historic people to remember which is annoying and useless.
01:27:00 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm heading a team in my dorm that's entering MTU's "cardboard boat" competition. It'll probably be soaking up *all* my free time for the next week.
01:27:05 <Razor-X> I'll be abstracting on a whole bunch of levels. From the ``magic'' level (I give you blah-very-noisy-signal, I want blah-un-noisy-signal) to the level of emulating the convolution signal using the weights.
01:29:02 <Razor-X> It'll be a *HECK* of a lot of work. I'll be writing GNUPlot wrappers, NN base classes, NN topologies, signal classes and convenient signal manipulation functions, and this is before any of the actual testing of the experiments.
01:31:18 <Razor-X> That's why I wanted mplayer. I don't want to have to write wrapper code to set the parameters for playing with audio raw.
01:31:18 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. I haven't coded a proper neural net system since my BASIC days. perhaps I should build a new one with Java...
01:31:39 <Razor-X> Lisp has a particular advantage in that functions are datatypes. I'll be exploiting this for NN writing.
01:32:53 <RodgerTheGreat> replacing current chip designs with neural nets sounds like it'll be a trick, but the technique could improve sound emulation tech... *running* a neural net doesn't take much CPU power once it's properly evolved and tweaked.
01:33:24 <Razor-X> Well, if the weigths can produce convolution signals, then you don't even need an NN.
01:33:35 <Razor-X> (This is one level of abstraction, of course.)
01:33:55 <Razor-X> Have an NN produce the weights beforehand, then make a signal using that and store it in the particular filters you want to implement.
01:34:06 <RodgerTheGreat> yes, then you could turn the single-layer net into a matrix operation.
01:35:15 <RodgerTheGreat> heh. you might actually be able to use such a technique to have a GPU emulate a soundcard- GPU's are built primarily around vector processors- dedicated matrix multipliers.
01:35:18 <Razor-X> The best thing about NNs is that, it lets high schoolers play algorithm with the big mathematicians.
01:35:43 <Razor-X> I'm sticking to sound simply for the purposes of the project. If I have the time to do graphics research too, I'll add that in later.
01:36:23 <Razor-X> But raw audio is A) Really easy to get to play in Linux B) Based on very simple math C) Easy to sample.
01:36:50 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I'm just saying the GPU could be used to *accelerate* neural net evaluation, if you needed them for a serious purpose. I'm not sure how feasible simulating GPU's with NN's would be...
01:38:17 <RodgerTheGreat> the other advantage of audio is that it depends less on precision than most types of calculations a computer could be used to do. Audio can be processed in a "good enough" fashion with little harm.
01:40:36 <Razor-X> I'll also have to be creative in my sampling... the sample may be *particularly* bad, for illustrative purposes ;).
01:42:07 <Razor-X> I've heard that raw voice samples are pretty awful.
01:42:49 <RodgerTheGreat> trying to build a NN-based vocoder could be interesting. input nodes would take the raw audio signal, and output nodes could extract formants... then you could build a vox around the opposite principle, using outputs to modulate a pure sine sample or somesuch thing...
01:43:29 <Razor-X> My dad couldn't understand why you have multiple inputs to the NN when it's only one signal :D
01:43:33 <RodgerTheGreat> I need to figure out how to do raw audio I/O from java.
01:43:49 <pikhq> Link to a C++ library.
01:44:18 <RodgerTheGreat> might work. A more platform-independent solution would be preferable, but hey..
01:44:24 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: Tritonius.
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01:45:21 <Razor-X> I've been looking into Java for the AP test, so jah.
01:47:03 <RodgerTheGreat> although, it looks like sun's API replicates most of the functionality.
01:48:30 <Razor-X> I just need to set sample rate, and sample format.
01:52:11 <RodgerTheGreat> are you going to be comparing your nets to existing algorithms, performance-wise, or is the experiment mainly to prove that NN's are a viable solution?
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01:53:44 <RodgerTheGreat> you should try pounding some XM's or MOD's through your filters- it'd be interesting to see if the clearer synthetic patterns worked better, or impaired the nets.
01:56:42 <RodgerTheGreat> anyway, if there's anything I can help out with, just let me know.
01:57:06 <Razor-X> But aren't XMs and MODs already cleaned up?
01:58:11 <Razor-X> I need something with noise and make it un-noisy.
01:58:42 <RodgerTheGreat> well, they're synthesized in the first place. Comparing a digitally generated one with a loopback-recorded one could get you some clear metrics for cleanup.
01:59:04 <Razor-X> In fact, that's a very good idea.
01:59:33 <Razor-X> I'll use the loss playing the MOD or XM, resample that, and compare that to the ideal signal.
01:59:38 <Razor-X> Or any such audio sample, actually.
02:00:15 <RodgerTheGreat> the trick is to use some type of sample that you can generate a "perfect" control sample for, such as MIDI, SID, MOD, XM, etc.
02:00:34 <Razor-X> Well, I can tell mplayer to generate a perfect sample for me :3
02:02:19 <RodgerTheGreat> man, I have this song stuck in my head: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/music/Rebb_-_Devious.mod
02:03:53 <Razor-X> Oh, and thank calamari for the inpsiration for a lot of this.
02:04:26 <Razor-X> And thank you for the NN inspiration :D.
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02:28:43 <oerjanj> just reading Lambda the Ultimate
02:33:50 <oerjanj> i see a real Old Hat has joined the wiki...
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02:39:06 <RodgerTheGreat> referring to the "Prehistory of Esolangs" page? I thought it was pretty interesting.
02:45:51 <RodgerTheGreat> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Prehistory_of_Esoteric_Languages
02:47:55 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm running off of a T3 atm, so any delay whatsoever feels weird.
02:48:32 <RodgerTheGreat> A couple weeks ago, my roommate managed a 14megs/sec download rate. ^_^
02:48:47 <Razor-X> 1:27 and the page isn't loading.
02:51:13 <oerjanj> hi razor-x, did jix ever get hold of you? from reading the logs you seemed to behave like Superman and Clark Kent...
02:53:04 <Razor-X> On weekdays, I'm away for a long time.
02:53:09 <Razor-X> This weekend I've been very busy.
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02:55:06 * pikhq should give Dimensifuck a ooD memory as well. . .
02:57:14 <oerjanj> i think that was suggested already, possibly by me
02:59:31 <pikhq> I'm saying I should actually do so.
03:53:35 <Razor-X> You have been shamed GregorR.
03:54:04 <Razor-X> I met someone who is in almost as many channels as you're in, squared.
03:59:58 <lament> 76 is not _quite_ almost 144.
04:01:02 <Razor-X> In respect to GregorR it is.
04:08:44 <Razor-X> Depends on his advertised value.
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04:46:37 <oerjanj> damn, i'm trying that puzzle and when googling to find information on the hint on page thirteen, i end up at a cheat sheet for the puzzle
04:47:20 <oerjanj> just as well i would never have figured out that hint otherwise.
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05:33:27 <wooby_> anyone looked into the shortest possible BF quine
05:34:57 <GregorR> Razor-X: Y'know, I'm not in a bunch of channels for novelty value.
05:35:10 <GregorR> Razor-X: And is this person in so many channels, oh, say, ChanServ? ;)
05:35:25 <Razor-X> All of you, whois a person called ChrisWhite.
05:39:50 <GregorR-L> I suppose if you join #gentoo* and #suse* you can increase your channel count exponentially, but i don't consider that channel list particularly legit.
05:40:51 <wooby_> too bad there isn't a #gentoo-ppc-embedded-laptop-Anime
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09:05:24 <Razor-X> CLOS is pretty interesting.... but it seems useless when you aren't doing heavy OOP.
09:08:01 <Arrogant> Which is almost all the time in Lisp
09:08:15 <Razor-X> I'll be using a structure then.
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09:09:50 <Razor-X> Ugggh. I don't want to write an entire class system myself -_-''.
09:12:54 <Razor-X> Maybe I will be using Tiny CLOS :D.
09:21:40 <Razor-X> Tiny is the Scheme version.
09:25:13 <Razor-X> Creating code for NN classes.
09:28:01 <Razor-X> For science project stuff.
09:29:08 <nooga> i jutst woke up :>
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15:35:25 <Razor-X> jix: I'm going to school now, please PM me the business you have.
15:35:51 <Razor-X> You wanted to talk to me, right?
15:36:05 <jix> not anymore.. it was about the contest but it is over now right?
15:36:16 <Razor-X> I've been real busy. Sorry.
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16:20:59 <jix> RodgerTheGreat: may i enter the contest after the deadline with the langauge linguine...
16:21:13 <jix> hmm until midnight? which time?
16:21:21 <jix> could be possible to do them
16:23:26 <RodgerTheGreat> Razor-X didn't like the idea of people registering after the fact. Her main idea was that some languages could give an unfair advantage, with the goals in mind.
16:24:30 <jix> hmm which langauge of the allowed one could allow me to complete the challenges until midnight
16:24:41 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm going to give you two options: 1) try to complete something in time with a language someone has already registered with, or 2) go with linguine and see what you can pull off, knowing that you probably won't end up being eligible for more than an honorable mention
16:25:46 <RodgerTheGreat> well, we have BF, Unlambda, Befunge, TheSquare, INTERCAL, and malbolge.
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16:26:33 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't think she'll be too happy with me for letting you do this, but I'm not sure how many entries we'll be having in the first place.
16:29:42 <jix> wow! we have a female esoteric programmer!
16:32:26 <jix> no one wants to do malbolge?
16:32:48 <jix> i don't like unlambda :(
16:33:06 <jix> (compared to lazy-k)
16:33:22 <jix> but on the other side... lazy-k is kinda boring compared to unlambda
16:33:25 <RodgerTheGreat> hey, if you can solve one of those problems in malbolge before midnight, I can tell you for a fact that you'll win the competition hands-down.
16:34:05 <kadmut> some guys did metaprogramming in malbolge using genetic algorithms
16:34:31 <RodgerTheGreat> the cryptanalysis was really the breakthrough development, though.
16:56:02 <RodgerTheGreat> so, jix- do you think you're going to try building a submission?
16:56:17 <jix> hmm not sure
16:56:25 <jix> not in one of the languages mentioned
16:56:51 <RodgerTheGreat> I wouldn't blame you for wanting to back out- you're really down to the wire on time one way or another.
16:57:16 <RodgerTheGreat> we can try holding a followup competition in a few months if there's interest.
16:58:21 <jix> i'll try to get a linguine solution
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18:29:20 <jix> i'm starting right now
18:38:00 <jix> i wont join
18:38:05 <jix> i'll wait for the next competition
18:39:42 * jix codes game instead of esolangs
18:40:28 <jix> current creenshot: http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/6231/bild10gk1.png
18:41:53 <GregorR-W> 2D? 2D is soooooooooooooooooo 2003.
18:42:13 <jix> well this is more like 1980
18:42:14 <GregorR-W> All the cool kids use 3D even for things where 3D makes no sense.
18:42:41 <jix> indeed graphic wise i used two 1980 shooters as a uhm ..... dunno the word right now
18:42:43 <GregorR-W> How can you use Mac OS X and not use OpenGL for 2D graphics? ;)
18:42:56 <jix> GregorR-W: i'm using SDL
18:43:05 <jix> because i want to port it to some things
18:43:10 <jix> and SDL makes that pretty easy
18:43:57 <jix> GregorR-W: i don't believe you
18:44:23 <jix> GregorR-W: what do you think about the gfx?
18:44:32 <GregorR-W> I like the interlacing effect, very retro.
18:44:48 <jix> yeah but thats only on 640x480...
18:45:08 <jix> the game is/gets written for 320x240 but it's too small on a 19" so i added that mode for 640x480
18:45:33 <GregorR-W> How 'bout if you try to expand it to, say, 1024x768?
18:45:42 <jix> why should i?
18:45:48 <jix> would be possible
18:45:57 <GregorR-W> So that I can play it full-screen X-P
18:46:10 <jix> but atm it's hardcoded to either 640x480 or 320x240 with preprocessor macros
18:46:18 <jix> i'll take care bout that later
18:46:32 <jix> atm it's possible to move the screen out of the window and everything
18:46:38 <GregorR-W> (Also, software should be able to scale to screen size, otherwise they're forever stuck in the present, and will be worthless in a few years when 640x480 = postage stamp :) )
18:48:41 <pikhq> Just do your graphics in SVG.
18:49:04 <jix> pikhq: no way!
18:49:07 <pikhq> Maybe have it prerender the SVG upon installation.
18:49:16 <jix> pikhq: that won't look nice
18:49:30 <jix> pikhq: because this is a 1980 style game
18:49:46 <jix> and 1980 style games had every pixel set by hand... and that gave them a special look and feel
18:49:50 <jix> and i'll do the same
18:50:26 <jix> i WANT this blocky icancountthepixels feeling....
18:51:05 <jix> pikhq: yeah
18:51:36 <jix> GregorR-W: linear? nearest neighbor + scanlines
18:51:51 <GregorR-W> jix: Doesn't that make it appear less pixely?
18:52:03 <jix> GregorR-W: no.... linear make it a bit smooth
18:52:28 <GregorR-W> Oh ... I guess I'm misremembering :P
18:52:28 <jix> nearest neighbor is just paint every pixel n times....
18:52:37 <jix> linear is.. well linear interpolation
18:52:48 <GregorR-W> Not sure why "linear" popped into my head.
18:52:53 <pikhq> One can have individual blocks in SVG. XD
18:52:54 <jix> then everything is ok and the world wont explode
18:53:07 <jix> pikhq: O RLY?
18:53:12 <pikhq> <block dim="foo" color="bar" />
19:09:53 <SimonRC> I also read the history of esolangs article and part of the article on TECO
19:11:28 <SimonRC> Brainfuck may be hard to program in, Malbolge may only be usable through genetic algorithms, but if you *really* want your mind boggled, try using Arrowised Functional Reactive Programming: http://www.haskell.org/yampa/AFPLectureNotes.pdf
19:12:12 <SimonRC> Just try to understand the signiture of pswitch: http://www.haskell.org/yale/papers/haskellworkshop02/index.html
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19:28:49 <SimonRC> Arrowised Functional Reactive programming
19:29:43 <SimonRC> rpm = rotations per minute
19:30:05 <fr34k> so why does your head spin?
19:30:32 <SimonRC> because I am trying to understand arrowised functional reactive programming
19:31:06 <fr34k> i dont even want to understand that :P
19:31:46 <fr34k> im trying to do a research about pulsejet engines, so i can build one myself
19:42:16 <fr34k> hey is pikhq here?
19:46:31 <SimonRC> pikhq spoke about 50 mins ago
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19:56:30 <boblol> i still havnt figured 196 out :P
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06:11:14 <Razor-X> Ugggh. Tiny CLOS is a total total pain to work with. I'm probably going to have to end up writing my own OOP system -_-''.
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08:02:16 <nooga> has some 1 tried to register a Gabon national domain (.ga) ?
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12:44:57 <SimonRC> # If you could see what I can see # # When i re-installing Windows. #
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14:22:08 * SimonRC reads what nooga said and tries going to noo.ga
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17:10:59 <SimonRC> (brie and basil sandwitches)++
17:17:23 <boblol> im just stuck with a php script
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18:35:12 <boblol> SimonRC: the page with 1597, wich # is it?
18:44:19 <SimonRC> hit the back button a few times until you get to one you can remember the number of, the hit the forward button and keep counting?
18:54:54 * pikhq has refactored his contest entry a bit. . .
18:57:05 <boblol> i tried to catch you since sunday
18:59:19 <pikhq> Refactored even more.
18:59:33 <pikhq> 363 characters now.
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19:04:33 <sparr_work> what is the language where the order instructions are run in is not defined?
19:05:39 <pikhq> Although *technically* pure functional languages have the same thing going on. :p
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19:18:47 <kipple_> any news about the contest? are there any submissions at all?
19:20:36 <pikhq> And I'm a bit curious if Razor-X will let me resubmit (I refactored my program a bit).
19:21:59 <pikhq> I went from 767 characters to 345 in my program.
19:22:14 <pikhq> I also refactored my C implementation a bit, too.
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19:33:09 <pikhq> brainfuckCompress, unfortunately, only efficiently compresses unefficient code.
19:33:33 <pikhq> (or just code that uses a lot of memory cells)
19:33:52 <boblol> hey pikhq, can i see an example of your contest entry?
19:34:41 <pikhq> [.,],[>>>>+<<<<[->>+>+<<<]>>[-<<+>>]++++++[>-------<-]>-[<+>[-]]+<[>-<-]>[>-<<<,[-<.>]>>-]<<<[->>+>+<<<]>>[-<<+>>]+++++[>---------<-]>[<+>[-]]+<[>-<-]>[>-<<<,[-<.>]>>-]<<<[->>+>+<<<]>>[-<<+>>]++++++[>----------<-]>[<+>[-]]+<[>-<-]>[>-<<<,[-<.>]>>-]<<<[->>+>+<<<]>>[-<<+>>]+++++++[>---------<-]>+[<+>[-]]+<[>-<-]>[>-<<<,[-<.>]>>-]>[<<<<.>>>>-],]
19:34:58 <boblol> isnt that exactly the same as brainfuck?
19:35:08 <pikhq> It's written in Brainfuck. -_-'
19:35:18 <pikhq> I'll upload the commented version.
19:36:19 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/uncompress.b
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21:51:50 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/brainfuckCompress.tar.gz Reworked my contest entry a bit.
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01:03:31 <pikhq> I now have uncompress.b as a C/Brainfuck polyglot.
01:03:49 <pikhq> Not a particularly clever one, but still.
01:13:24 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/unc.b.c
01:16:13 <pikhq> The C code, BTW, is just a direct translation from the original Brainfuck comments (I don't like how it'd look done inside of the case statements of my original C code).
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01:22:46 <ihope> Efficient quantum sorting algorithm: randomize the order of the list you want to sort. If it's not sorted, destroy the universe.
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01:30:41 <GregorR-L> Assuming destroying the universe is in O(1)
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03:43:31 <pikhq> I hate being called a communist for supporting software freedom. D:<
03:44:21 <RodgerTheGreat> think about that the next time you decide to call someone a "consumerist slave".
03:46:07 <pikhq> 20:27 < RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: there's a name for that. communism.
03:46:18 <pikhq> 20:28 < RodgerTheGreat> I'd rather have my free market than free software. Idealism is really great until you realize you need to eat.
03:47:18 <RodgerTheGreat> [01:16 AM] *** pikhq sets mode +enslaved on RodgerTheGreat<CTCP>
03:47:18 <RodgerTheGreat> [01:17 AM] <pikhq> shadowarts: The thing I don't get with proprietary software users supporting proprietary software. . . Is that, to me, it's about like a slave arguing that slavery is good for all.
03:48:02 <pikhq> I just said that you're enslaved. . . Which you *are*. You're dependant on Microsoft's whim.
03:49:02 <pikhq> What do you use, then?
03:52:11 <RodgerTheGreat> Apple. And while you can argue, as you do *ad nauseam* that lacking the ability to "share, study and modify" the kernel of my OS, that I am ultimately limited, the fact is: I enjoy the software that I have, the way it is. I was willing to pay money for it when I bought it, and it allows me to do the work I want to do with my computer. If you're so interested in the freedom of software, why aren't you willing to put money toward *t
03:52:48 <pikhq> Because I don't have money to put towards it or anything else.
03:53:18 <pikhq> (and yes, I'm working on getting a job. . .)
03:53:48 <RodgerTheGreat> hah! and you claim it's possible to make a living from free software. If the entire world thought like you do, not even richard stallman would be able to live on somebody else's dime!
03:54:49 <pikhq> The fact that I lack a job is irrelevant: as I've never had a job, it's highly unlikely that I could get anything beyond a burger flipping job.
03:55:19 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't see how that makes a difference. I know many people that had jobs by your age, and you can be damn sure *I* was earning money when I was 16. You're nothing but a freeloader, and an elitist one at that.
03:55:37 <pikhq> Also, might I remind you that, while the ideals of the free software movement may seem "impractical", they *have* had practical results.
03:55:42 * pikhq is using a free OS ATM
03:56:25 <pikhq> In fact, *you* partially benefit from this.
03:56:56 <pikhq> Apple, while as a *whole* nonfree, contains bits and pieces from the free software community (the ones that were mildly unwise in not using copyleft).
03:57:42 <pikhq> As to your accusation of being a freeloader. . . Try getting a job when you're expecting to move before the year is out.
03:59:18 <pikhq> Just saying, it's a bit difficult to get a job without being around long enough to make you worth hiring.
03:59:48 <pikhq> And as to your elitism accusation. . .
03:59:54 <pikhq> Have you looked in a mirror lately?
04:01:45 <pikhq> *sigh* Never ceases to amaze me how violently someone can reject the simple concept that the ideas of freedom apply to software, too.
04:01:54 <RodgerTheGreat> all I see here is someone I made the mistake of *giving* a free shell account to, only to have myself and my friends personally insulted, without seeing so much as a shred of graditude!
04:02:31 <pikhq> And all I'm seeing is an escalating flame war.
04:03:42 <pikhq> How's about we just get this whole thing out on a fresh start, shall we?
04:04:32 <RodgerTheGreat> Next time you want something with me, take it to PM's, rather than retreating to another channel where you think you can get sympathy.
04:07:16 <pikhq> I run gNewSense & Gentoo.
04:07:29 <pikhq> Frodo's going to go over to gNewSense once 1.0 is released. . .
04:08:17 <Razor-X> Hi, I'm a PC and my user is running very low on time. I run Slackware Linux.
04:08:18 <pikhq> It's basically Ubuntu with all of the nonfree software removed.
04:08:39 <pikhq> Razor-X: Then don't use IRC.
04:08:42 <calamari> oh.. what's nonfree in Ubuntu?
04:09:00 <pikhq> The kernel they ship with, for one, contains binary firmware blobs.
04:09:21 <calamari> anything besides the kernel, which I can recompile at any time?
04:09:40 <pikhq> The nonfree archive, of course. XD
04:10:22 <pikhq> While you can reject this, I personally don't feel that a distro should offer (semi)official support for nonfree software, but have it seperated to claim "we support free software".
04:10:58 <calamari> well.. I don't have anything against freeware
04:11:02 <pikhq> Of course, this is a much, much more minor issue than the fact that roughly 95% of all computer users don't have the right to use, study, share, and change.
04:11:16 <calamari> people can decide how they want to release their code
04:11:31 <pikhq> Not this damned argument again.
04:11:35 <calamari> I think if some people had their way, they'd want to force people to use gpl
04:12:04 <pikhq> I wouldn't force people to use GPL. . . I'd only force people to give all users control over their computer.
04:12:23 <pikhq> The BSD license also provides this essential right.
04:12:40 <calamari> I'm against forcing people to do things.. if there is a law then it has to be enforced.. and that means police, prison, etc
04:13:02 <calamari> just seems silly to put someone in a prison over not releasing their source code
04:13:12 <calamari> if you want it that bad, use a disassembler
04:13:25 <pikhq> calamari: Then surely copyright itself, which must be enforced against all people (since the means for copying is available to all people), is wrong?
04:13:37 <calamari> pikhq: in its current state, it certainly is
04:13:47 <pikhq> calamari: That much, I can agree with you.
04:14:13 <pikhq> I just think that copyright law should be changed to enforce the release of source code (which, it seems, you *would* disagree with).
04:15:00 <pikhq> I, personally, think it sad that this would need to be enforced, though. . .
04:15:02 <calamari> I see nothing wrong with keeping a piece of software closed.. the problem is that copyrights never expire these days
04:15:31 <RodgerTheGreat> source code constitutes properly, and it should be the choice of the author of that code to release it or not. Source code is not a fundamental right by any means.
04:15:32 <calamari> but, since nobody seems to care oabout the constitution anymore.. this kind of thing happens
04:15:44 <pikhq> I feel that it would be far better for people to see that it's wrong to do so, and keep the government out of it.
04:16:21 <calamari> pikhq: I'm a Libertarian.. so I agree with keeping the government out of things
04:16:37 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Source code is nothing more than math, written down in such a way that a computer can understand it.
04:16:54 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Well, written in such a way both a computer and a human can understand it.
04:17:06 <calamari> should say libertarian since I'm not an official member
04:17:25 <RodgerTheGreat> are you implying that math and algorithms are all fundamentally intuitive, and that no creativity or substantial work go into creating source code?
04:18:34 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Not at all. I'm saying that ideas shouldn't be kept under lock and key.
04:19:08 <pikhq> What is the purpose of creativity if you're not willing to show it to others?
04:19:51 <RodgerTheGreat> in the information age, ideas *and their successful implementation* are the most valuable possession a person could have. Unless I *wanted* to share them, I'd keep them under lock and key like anything else I own of value.
04:19:55 <calamari> before I leave: some ideas I want to share, some I want to sell.. I should be able to do both
04:20:10 <pikhq> calamari *does* have a good point; greed alone (the desire for *more* money, not the desire for money at all) keeps ideas under lock and key.
04:20:32 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: One doesn't need to be paid for copies of software.
04:20:41 <pikhq> One could just as well be paid for the act of writing the software.
04:21:29 <pikhq> Although one can also sell copies of software (the GNU project, for example, sells GNU).
04:21:58 <pikhq> All of this one can do *while* giving the right to use, share, study, and change to users.
04:22:37 <pikhq> Perhaps we should move to a PM?
04:23:35 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't even want to talk about this there. You're a broken record. Just *stop*, already.
04:24:40 <pikhq> You, too, are a broken record. . . Presumably because neither of us is willing to concede to the other's points.
04:25:03 * pikhq sets mode +mute on himself
04:27:18 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Fine: One last thing I have to say. . .
04:27:24 <pikhq> Thank you for pikhq@nonlogic.org
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10:08:09 * SimonRC decides that the only reason closed-source software ever existed was because computers are slow.
10:09:27 <SimonRC> oh, and floppy dicsks are very small, and early networks were very slow
10:10:24 <SimonRC> If compilers had never been necessary, and data transferr and storage had been better, the practice of distributing programs in a form different from that in which you produced them would not have become so widespread.
10:10:58 <SimonRC> I am undecided as to when exactly it is a good thing and when not, though.
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13:35:36 * SimonRC is impressed: http://thedailywtf.com/forums/permalink/82701/83130/ShowThread.aspx#83130
13:36:59 <SimonRC> a piece of code that contains 64 keywords in a row without repetition, and which compiles
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13:55:09 <pikhq> Wanting to go and kill the Monkey's Audio devs.
14:05:30 <pikhq> It's nonfree, but claims GPL compatibility.
14:08:49 <pikhq> If you know *anything* about free software, you should be able to see the BS inherent in this. ;)
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14:10:29 <RodgerTheGreat> is this how you start conversations in meatspace, too?
14:11:52 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: I could ask you the same question.
14:16:07 <GregorR> "2. Monkey's Audio source can be included in GPL and open-source software, although Monkey's Audio itself will not be subjected to external licensing requirements or other viral source restrictions."
14:16:26 <GregorR> "2. The person who wrote this license doesn't understand the concept of licensing in the slightest."
14:19:30 <SimonRC> Quote (Bill Gates apparently): "Measuring programming progress by lines of code is like measuring aircraft building progress by weight."
14:23:20 <boblol> Quote (by rasist): "I want to move to a country that dont take in immigrants."
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14:34:49 <SimonRC> ah, the wonders of automatic countdowns: http://yisraylhawkins.com/
14:34:52 <SimonRC> "Wednesday, September 27, 2006" "-15 days remaining before the start of nuclear war"
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16:13:47 <SimonRC> Seen on Slashdot: "- Smart voice recognition? Anyone tried it lately? Anyone tried to write pretty standard letters with it? Desastrous."
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19:12:22 * SimonRC wants an environment that lets him do functional and declarative programming with super-duper types like Haskell yet allows running programs to modify themselves in any way like Squeak does.
19:12:58 <SimonRC> A pocket-sized mobile phone with a 17-in display would be nice too.
19:12:59 * pikhq hands SimonRC a parser generator
19:13:15 <SimonRC> pikhq: were you even listening
19:13:28 <pikhq> SimonRC: Yeah; I'm saying "write your own".
19:13:50 <SimonRC> I thought you were suggesting a parser generator as th solution.
19:14:02 <pikhq> It's only part of the solution.
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21:15:31 * SimonRC indicates that project Croquet looks very interesting, and will either turn out to be the greatest thing ever or totally crap.
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21:33:46 <GregorR-W> SimonRC: /me leans towards "totally crap"
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21:48:54 <GregorR-W> SimonRC: Because HIDs are still 2D. 3D HIDs would need to come about before 3D UIs become useful.
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23:35:00 <SimonRC> good way to waste 2 hours: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5534080568776365031
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00:20:59 * SimonRC goes to bed (will watch rest of talk tomorrow morning).
00:21:02 <SimonRC> good way to waste 2 hours: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5534080568776365031
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01:32:18 <ivan`> SimonRC, that's a pretty good video
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01:41:44 <ivan`> did he spend 100 hours on that one powerpoint?
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12:42:42 <SimonRC> !!! http://content.ytmnd.com/content/a/2/2/a224551a525ebf5e30cedf1f4ae16b99.gif
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19:39:48 <boblol> hehe :P hej p dig ocks
19:40:01 <boblol> i dont speak much norwegian though :P
19:41:50 <oerjan> well, most norwegians understand swedish (more than the other way around, says statistics)
19:42:58 <boblol> cuz when i speak with a norwegian (irl then) i can understand pretty much
19:43:03 <boblol> more that i understand danish :P
19:43:36 <oerjan> well, norwegian is essentially danish as spoken by a swede, you know. :-)
19:44:16 <boblol> haha, maybe :P though norway was swedish until 1906, so you celebrate 100 years as an own country this year :D
19:44:46 <oerjan> and yes we did celebrate
19:45:13 <boblol> how did you celebrate?
19:45:43 <kipple_> going out and beating up swedes ;-)
19:45:45 <oerjan> um, by "we" i don't mean "I" ;)
19:46:20 <oerjan> actually swedes were invited to some of the celebrations, and i think they left relatively unscathed
19:47:02 <boblol> well i was home *i think*
19:47:25 * oerjan looks up the word in wiktionary to see if it means what he thinks it means
19:49:49 <boblol> did you have any partypoppers?
19:51:26 <oerjan> well there were some people claiming we would have been better off if we hadn't left sweden, like we might have avoided WW2
19:52:41 <oerjan> yes, germany occupied norway
19:55:23 <boblol> well i dont mind you left sweden
19:55:29 <boblol> i didnt even live then
19:57:13 <boblol> i wrote a php-script that performs the reverse-then-add sequence to a number
19:57:27 <kipple_> good thing we left, so we don't have to share our oil with the swedes ;)
19:57:49 * oerjan did that in haskell a little while ago
19:58:19 <oerjan> norwegians are not good at sharing alas
19:58:39 <boblol> alas? a short for something?
19:58:57 <lindi-> An exclamation expressive of sorrow, pity, or apprehension of evil; -- in old writers, sometimes followed by day or white; alas the day, like alack a day, or alas the white. [1913 Webster]
19:59:50 <kipple_> lindi: wow, that was quick
20:00:02 <lindi-> sudo apt-get install dict-gcide dictd ; dict alas
20:00:25 <kipple_> my apt-get doesn't work that fast ;)
20:00:27 <lindi-> you want also packages dict-web1913 dict-wn
20:01:45 <oerjan> boblol: was that what your 196 message the other day was about?
20:02:14 <oerjan> don't expect to solve it with a php script though...
20:02:37 <boblol> haha i wrote two messages about 196, wich one do you mean?
20:03:09 <oerjan> <boblol> i still havnt figured 196 out :P
20:03:23 <boblol> oh.. http://n.nfshost.com/1.html
20:04:07 <oerjan> yeah, i thought that could be it too, i got to the 21st page before giving up
20:04:44 <oerjan> i got disgusted when the obvious 22nd page didn't work
20:05:02 <boblol> where this image of 20 is
20:05:45 <oerjan> oh, that one was disgusting too.
20:06:07 <boblol> i have no idea what to do :P
20:06:18 <oerjan> i mean, it looked like it should be twntn, removing the vowels
20:06:30 <oerjan> so i ended up cheating
20:06:54 <boblol> so twnt has nothing to do with twenty??
20:07:21 <oerjan> yes it does, but it's not as logical as simply removing the vowels
20:08:39 <oerjan> although thinking about it in afterthought there is a logical way to get the actual answr, somewhat
20:08:58 <boblol> so it is not twntn.html?
20:09:20 <boblol> is it possible for you to give me any clues/hints?
20:10:03 <oerjan> try to think of anothere way to get twnt from twenty, other than removing the vowels
20:10:40 <boblol> i only see that one solution
20:11:18 <oerjan> or rather, what property do e and y have inthe word twenty, apart from beingthe vowels
20:12:01 <boblol> they are characters number 3 and 6, and if you divide 6 by 3 you get 2
20:13:10 <oerjan> you were closer with your first comment...
20:13:31 <boblol> but not close enough huh?
20:15:01 <oerjan> but close enough that you won't get more hints :)
20:16:14 <boblol> it sure has to do with some mathematical stuff that im too young to even be aware of :P
20:17:45 <oerjan> not if you are into mathematics at all apart from ordinary schoolwork
20:18:09 <oerjan> not that i know what math they teach at school nowadays
20:18:23 <boblol> i still go to school :P im 15
20:19:39 <oerjan> and i'm 36 with a mathematcis degree, so don't trust me to have perspective on this
20:24:01 * oerjan feels like he just mentioned having some horrible disease :)
20:24:27 <kipple_> there, there. it's not _that_ bad...
20:25:20 <kipple_> there are worse diseases than math degrees (probably)
20:27:04 <oerjan> well, it could be that plus age :/
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00:19:25 <CakeProphet> Holy crap.. I think I -can- write brainfuck in wikisyntax.
00:19:50 <GregorR-L> I severely doubt that wikisyntax is Turing complete.
00:20:41 <CakeProphet> The only part I'd have trouble doing is the [] :/
00:21:43 <pikhq> Use the HTML entity.
00:55:15 <CakeProphet> Figure out... using wiki StringFunctions and Parserfunctions... how to divide a parameter into strings of 30 characters for use with the #pos function./
00:55:28 <CakeProphet> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/ParserFunctions#.23expr:
00:55:38 <CakeProphet> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/StringFunctions
00:55:54 <CakeProphet> http://editthis.info/wordforge/Template:Brainfuck
00:59:48 <CakeProphet> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/DynamicFunctions
01:03:46 <CakeProphet> http://undefined.net/w/index.php?title=Square_root
01:04:59 <CakeProphet> http://undefined.net/w/index.php?title=Tic_Tac_Toe
01:09:17 <GregorR-L> I would like to recall my last statement.
01:18:33 <CakeProphet> StringSplitIter... which needs to run over the #sub function for each multiple of thirty within the BF string
01:18:52 <CakeProphet> #sub being the function that slices a string
01:19:35 <CakeProphet> I just need it to iterator over the string
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15:32:44 <SimonRC> OMG! 50m instect attaking Germany! http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/09/28/giant_insect/
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21:46:23 <nooga> i need a finnish guy
22:15:20 <nooga> hva skal jeg ta pa meg?
22:15:40 <ihope> omgnorwegianorsomething
22:15:57 <GregorR-W> Translation: "<nooga> Finnish men a/s/l?"
22:23:44 <nooga> but i need finnish guy ;p
22:27:42 <nooga> but actually i just found one
22:31:47 <ihope> Why you fint, you!
22:36:17 * SimonRC stops hacking around with threads and channels in Haskell (co-routine kit for a possible roguelike) and goes to bed.
22:39:01 <nooga> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
22:39:08 <nooga> roguelike in haskell?
22:41:49 <nooga> fscking lots of side effects
22:42:38 <ihope> Fscking lots of monads.
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23:05:25 <ihope> We need a language that's easy to prove Turing-complete, but which is hard to *constructively* prove Turing-complete.
23:06:31 <ihope> Dude, it'd be, like...
23:06:37 <ihope> THE esoteric programming language.
23:07:43 <ihope> The programs would have to be sets in ZFC, so the number of programs would be uncardinally large.
23:08:58 <ihope> A program is a set. Input is a set.
23:09:12 <ihope> If the input is in the program, it halts. Otherwise, it loops forever.
23:09:14 <nooga> implement that one
23:09:28 <ihope> It's uncomputable.
23:09:34 <ihope> ...Meaning not Turing-complete.
23:10:02 <nooga> get ur self drunk and code
23:10:45 <ihope> I can't. I'm under 21.
23:11:33 <nooga> and i can drink as much as i want :)
23:11:52 <ihope> <ihope> Well, you live in Pol
23:12:00 <ihope> <nooga> in Poland ;p
23:12:04 <ihope> <ihope> and or something.
23:12:21 <GregorR-W> How about, "I can't, I'm not an idiot"?
23:12:22 <ihope> That was what I typed before you said that :-P
23:12:34 <ihope> Oh yeah, even better!
23:12:42 <nooga> drinking is not bad
23:12:50 <nooga> bash was written by drunk ppl
23:13:06 <nooga> drinking too much and too often *IS* bad
23:43:29 <ihope> You mean /me eats? :-)
23:44:36 <nooga> wtf is that "RIP lilo" in the topic
23:45:42 <ihope> Car hit him or something.
23:46:31 <nooga> i thought it was LInux LOader -.-
23:46:52 <GregorR-W> The LInux LOader is pretty much dead too, most distros have switched to GRUB ;)
23:47:06 <nooga> so i thought that's the point
23:47:25 <pikhq> Lilo is still being developed a *bit*. . . Slackware, for example, still uses it.
23:47:36 <pikhq> (GRUB is optional)
23:47:39 <nooga> i need to brush my teeth ;d
23:48:46 <ihope> nooga: are you going to brush your teeth with... hmm, I don't know how to finish that question.
23:49:26 <nooga> http://img174.imageshack.us/my.php?image=path56h7gg0.png << look ! i've drawn a pirate using inkscape ;d
23:50:07 <GregorR-W> Pirates aren't usually so ... openly homosexual.
23:50:16 <nooga> it's a girl pirate ;d
23:50:45 <nooga> http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=flouran1.jpg ;]
23:51:17 <nooga> the pirate and ribbon is inkscape, the rest is propetiaty, evul, photoshop
23:51:56 <nooga> yeah, i know, im the best
23:53:19 <nooga> jeg har psykiske problemer
23:58:39 <ihope> Stop talking in various Scandinavian languages.
23:58:59 <nooga> it's still norwegian
23:59:25 <GregorR-W> Stop talking in various not-English languages ;)
00:00:33 <ihope> That's Norwegian, too, I'm guessing.
00:00:59 <ihope> What family's that in, again?
00:07:09 <nooga> i like scandinavian ones
00:45:14 <nooga> i'm going to brush my teeth with a....
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00:54:35 <ihope> So until 1987, Scott Joplin's works were still covered by copyright in the US?
00:55:01 <ihope> Why would a person want his or her works covered by copyright *after* his or her death?
00:55:28 <calamari> ihope: so that their kids can still make $ off it
01:23:00 <calamari> even the language in this channel is becoming esoteric
01:23:16 <calamari> either that or I'm talking to a bunch of bots
01:27:23 <nooga> http://bash.org.pl/83822/
01:27:47 <nooga> tak = yes; nie = no; chuj = dick;
01:29:03 <nooga> i tried to design a complex esolang in which there will be following lexical symbols: tak nie chuj hoi . , ! ; : d 1 ? case sensitive uf csr
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04:01:09 <EgoBot> 3 CakeProphet: bf_txtgen
04:01:13 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
04:01:14 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
04:01:16 <EgoBot> 105 +++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>++>++++++<<<<-]>---.>----.+++++++..+++.>++.>---.<<.+++.------.--------.>+. [389]
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04:13:10 <pikhq> if(crash==inconvenient) {panic();}
04:13:12 <pikhq> I swear that's in Linux somewhere.
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19:17:32 <llisper> http://graphics2.snopes.com/katrina/graphics/skybush.jpg
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