00:01:40 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:10:20 * oerjan has been trying to avoid jokes about bsmntbombdood going down the drain, to no avail
00:18:26 <oerjan> he looked a bit old to be in high school :)
00:20:45 -!- ehird` has quit.
00:21:44 * SimonRC fails to recall the language based on brownian motion
00:22:57 <SimonRC> I looked at that in a list, but rejected it
00:24:58 -!- ihope__ has joined.
00:33:54 <SimonRC> why did you go down there?
00:36:37 <SimonRC> you can't do that round here
00:36:43 <SimonRC> (they are all to small for a start)
00:37:23 <SimonRC> well there aren't any of those round here
00:37:42 <SimonRC> how did you find the entrance in the end?
00:38:17 <SimonRC> and I suspect nottoo legal
00:39:09 <bsmntbombdood> the uk has really lax trespassing laws doesn't it?
00:39:12 <bsmntbombdood> http://abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmntbombdood/hdr_pole_small.png
00:42:37 -!- ihope_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
01:30:10 -!- ihope__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
02:17:39 <ihope> I'm guessing the next one is vvvvvvvvvvvvvv, followed by cccccccccccccc again.
02:17:49 <ihope> Then bbbbbbbbbbbbbb.
02:42:09 <ihope> Was xxxxxxxxxxxxxx supposed to be bbbbbbbbbbbbbb?
02:42:25 <ihope> Followed my mmmmmmmmmmmmmm, followed by ..............?
02:43:11 * oerjan wishes to deny that he considered keyboard placement when selecting c
02:44:13 <oerjan> in fact unpronouncability was higher on the priority list
02:46:32 <oerjan> i recall discarding y,a, and m at least. the details are rather vague and were so already at the time.
02:52:21 <ihope> But yyyyyyyyyyyyyy is so unobviously pronounced.
02:52:36 <ihope> Unless you pronounce it "Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!"
02:55:33 <ihope> How would a Norwegian pronounce it?
03:03:30 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
03:14:05 <oerjan> front upper rounded with protruded lips
03:40:42 -!- ihope has quit ("Lost terminal").
05:46:10 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
05:53:17 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
06:28:09 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit.
07:39:41 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Man who stand in frond of car is tired. Man who stand behind car is exhausted.").
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:28:16 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
09:53:07 -!- sebbu has joined.
11:30:55 -!- ehird` has joined.
11:41:53 <ehird`> i think i will start on that optimizes-to-hell BF compiler i was going to work on
12:18:37 -!- jix_ has joined.
12:41:40 -!- sebbu has quit (Success).
12:51:12 -!- ehird` has quit ("Pong timeout").
12:54:26 -!- sebbu has joined.
13:13:08 -!- ehird` has joined.
15:18:08 -!- importantshock_ has joined.
15:18:11 -!- importantshock_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:18:28 -!- importantshock has joined.
15:25:33 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
15:26:44 -!- Tritonio has joined.
15:52:25 -!- importantshock_ has joined.
16:04:53 -!- importantshock- has joined.
16:14:20 -!- importantshock-_ has joined.
16:16:08 -!- importantshock_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
16:53:30 -!- importantshock-- has joined.
17:00:10 -!- importantshock-- has quit.
17:00:10 -!- importantshock- has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:00:10 -!- importantshock-_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:00:10 -!- importantshock has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:00:19 -!- importantshock-- has joined.
17:00:54 -!- importantshock-- has changed nick to importantshock.
17:34:00 -!- importantshock has quit ("Leaving...").
17:37:41 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
17:50:44 -!- sebbu has quit (Nick collision from services.).
17:50:45 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
18:04:22 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:09:03 -!- jix_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
18:11:13 -!- jix_ has joined.
18:23:28 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:23:50 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
18:27:19 -!- Tritonio has joined.
18:41:59 -!- importantshock has joined.
19:12:07 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
19:16:38 -!- importantshock has quit ("Leaving...").
19:40:35 -!- mordaunt has joined.
20:10:44 -!- mordaunt has left (?).
22:36:08 -!- clog has joined.
22:36:08 -!- clog has joined.
22:47:38 -!- importantshock has quit ("Leaving...").
22:58:31 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:25:37 <oklopol> gimme a big math expression
23:35:03 <bsmntbombdood> \exist \mathbf{N}: \varnothing \in \mathbf{N} \and (\forall x: x \in \mathbf{N} \implies x \cup \{x\} \in \mathbf{N})
23:44:43 <oklopol> no predicate logic or whaddyacallit
23:45:12 -!- ololobot has joined.
23:45:27 <oklopol> i don't know anything that does random expressions
23:45:42 <oklopol> and i just simply cannot make them manually
23:46:03 <oklopol> they always come out square, you know
23:46:52 <oklopol> infix -> finefix convertor
23:48:09 <oklopol> haven't made a formal proof it's as strong as postfix, though i'm fairly sure it is, being conceptually pretty much the same thing...
23:48:29 <oklopol> because infix wasn't "nesting complete"
23:48:36 <oklopol> i don't know if there's a real term for that
23:48:43 <oklopol> but you can't do implicit nesting with it
23:49:07 <oklopol> 5+(5+5), you cannot eliminate the parens
23:49:15 <bsmntbombdood> and, i've just died many firey death's in google earth's flight simulator
23:49:29 <oklopol> i thought you can't die in that...
23:49:55 <oklopol> guess i have to do >>> rand-expr
23:50:22 <oklopol> plus i could let you specify the objoken regexes and the funcoken regexes
23:50:29 <oklopol> also, i should stop using my own terms
23:50:46 <oklopol> objoken = token that's parsed as a value
23:50:56 <oklopol> i don't know the terms for anything thattish
23:51:05 <oklopol> since i haven't seen anything written about parsing really...
23:51:43 <oklopol> anyone made an irc server?
23:51:53 <oklopol> i thought i'd write one now
23:52:12 <oklopol> hmm... i'm fairly sure you can only do numbers :|
23:52:40 <oklopol> >>> in-fi (1 + 2) * (3 - 4) * 5 + 1*(3 + 6)
23:53:18 <pikhq> Looks like syntactic sugar around parens.
23:53:44 <oklopol> well yes, but so are post-/prefix...
23:53:56 <pikhq> Hmm. What, exatly, *is* the syntax?
23:54:00 <oklopol> basically that's the idea.
23:54:53 <oklopol> finefix is based on infixifying postfix
23:54:56 <pikhq> It looks like some parts are postfix, some are infix. . .
23:55:05 <pikhq> Hmm. Impossible to parse?
23:55:15 <oklopol> stack-based parsing as in postficx
23:55:28 <oklopol> i'll upload the "spec" soon
23:55:33 <pikhq> >> fi-in 1 + 2 3 * - 4 * 5 1 3 + * + 6
23:55:39 <pikhq> >>> fi-in 1 + 2 3 * - 4 * 5 1 3 + * + 6
23:55:45 * pikhq hopes you've bothered with that
23:56:04 <oklopol> the conversion is also based on postfix, just shift every sequence of funcokens left one step
23:56:23 -!- ehird` has quit.
23:56:24 <oklopol> also, you have to reverse them
23:57:19 <oklopol> you can immediately have 4 variations of infix depending on whether to base around prefix or postfix and whether to reverse functions when you are "evaluating lazily"-ish
23:57:56 <oklopol> evaluating lazily = leaving something on the stack when encountering a token
23:58:18 <oklopol> infix without explicit nesting, normally parsed, never does that
23:58:26 <oklopol> which is why it's not "nesting complete"
23:58:33 <oklopol> pikhq: also, the command is in-fi
23:58:46 <bsmntbombdood> i quat gearth and now it won't let me simulate flight again
23:58:55 <oklopol> i haven't done the other way around yet
23:59:17 <pikhq> oklopol: I was trying to do the *inverse*.
23:59:38 <oklopol> but since i didn't make an actual good "fix" parsing library, those are all separate functions, which i had to make
00:00:08 <oklopol> making all in/po/pr/fi - conversions would be 12
00:00:26 <oklopol> and that's a bit tedious when i could just wrap over prefix and have one for each
00:00:58 <oklopol> also, i'm going to generalize fixes when i have the time, and just have >>> convert <fix code>-<fix code> <expression>
00:01:46 <oklopol> plus the regex thing for specifying what's ws and what's objoken/funcoken, but i said that already
00:01:59 <oklopol> anyway, did anyone ever make a server?
00:02:34 <oklopol> pikhq: i know what you were trying to do, but just right after i'd first misunderstood and already replied :)
00:03:39 <oklopol> the inverse is pretty trivial if you don't sweat about redundant parens
00:05:18 <oklopol> how the fuck can a simple server-client code be over 10 lines long o_O
00:05:25 <oklopol> isn't python supposed to be concise...
00:07:51 <pikhq> A simple Tcl server is 7 lines. . .
00:07:58 <pikhq> http://wiki.tcl.tk/15315
00:08:08 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+").
00:08:23 <pikhq> Just a proc to accept new connects, bind the proc to a socket, and start the event loop. Easy.
00:09:09 <oklopol> and irc server code is long of course
00:09:12 <pikhq> And oklopol was talking about barebones "accepts connections and does something" servers.
00:09:31 <pikhq> Well, yeah. Just getting the IRC parser & lexer up is a nice chunk of code.
00:09:36 <oklopol> http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/200946 <<< like wtf is that
00:10:02 <pikhq> Then you've got to get various parts of the server talking to each other, keeping state of which channels a person is in. . . Bit of a pain.
00:10:20 <pikhq> Wow, that's difficult.
00:10:29 <oklopol> that's not that long if you actually read it... but it's just server/client really isn't a task at all
00:10:40 <oklopol> it should be like WAITFOR <port number>
00:11:07 <pikhq> Seems a bit excessive for to be Pythonic.
00:11:33 <pikhq> (admittedly, it's got a bit more than the Tcl example. . .)
00:11:58 <bsmntbombdood> i bet i could write an irc server in 100 lines in scchemes
00:12:06 <pikhq> Good luck with that.
00:12:16 <pikhq> I bet you'll need more for the IRC parser.
00:25:36 <oklopol> kay... 6 lines and i have a connection
00:26:51 -!- ololobot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:27:25 -!- ololobot has joined.
00:36:34 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Dubious.
00:36:46 <pikhq> (well, unless you cheat, the Bison way. :p)
00:38:11 <pikhq> Just specify the BNF syntax, and let some tool (or function) automagically parse from that.
01:50:28 -!- importantshock has joined.
02:01:42 <bsmntbombdood> it's says it can accelerate while going straight up, but it won't let me
02:18:51 <bsmntbombdood> and the maximum speed is only mach 1.3, not mach 2
02:28:49 <oklopol> wtf... in which case would print "m ========",m leave "m " out, like refuse to print the first characters of "m ========"
02:29:20 <oklopol> i'm doing a fucking string catenation and everything gets fucked up
02:29:51 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
02:30:42 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p513215652.txt <<< is there really something that can fuck up?
02:30:47 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: good to see you
02:32:17 <oklopol> the lines that should print "m = ..." fail to print "m "
02:32:33 <oklopol> and m=m+msg appends msg to the beginning of m
02:32:43 <oklopol> unless i'm really failing here, python is
02:33:19 <pikhq> The 3rd is the official PEBBLEversery.
02:36:32 <pikhq> Kinda nice that it's a Labor day, though.
02:37:31 <RodgerTheGreat> almost as if everyone else is celebrating the anniversary with you
02:40:26 <oklopol> YAY, just learned the important lesson of never putting chr(13) in a python string...
02:47:50 <oklopol> basically, i debugged a function that catenates 2 strings and prints them for 2 ohurs
02:48:53 <oklopol> well, a bit over an hour, but anyway
02:49:34 <RodgerTheGreat> I've done things worse than that. Let me tell you a tale of a mergesort...
02:50:20 <RodgerTheGreat> my function started from a randomized array, made a copy, did shit, and then copied the sorted data back and returned the array (reasons for why become complicated.)
02:50:34 <RodgerTheGreat> anyway, I implement a mergesort... and it doesn't work
02:51:06 <RodgerTheGreat> 6 frustrating hours and at least 4 total rewrites later, I realize the problem wasn't with the SORT, I was copying back that wrong damn array!
02:54:20 <RodgerTheGreat> the lesson: when you start over on something, make sure you're starting over on all the right parts
02:54:48 <RodgerTheGreat> also, if I'd been smart enough to display more intermediate results on that one I might've figured it out faster
02:55:18 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection).
02:58:22 <oklopol> i had absolutely no idea where the problem could be... since i didn't know that chr(13) sometimes does carriage return and starts appending in the beginning of the string
02:58:37 <oklopol> "sometimes", because in my test runs, it doesn't do that
02:59:01 <oklopol> >>> print "oko"+chr(13)+"odo"
02:59:27 <oklopol> but then again, why would it always work the same way
03:00:57 <oklopol> also, i've been debugging for quite a while now just because i didn't bother to check what mirc SHOULD output @ connect
03:01:08 <oklopol> i just assumed it says something for every server reply
03:01:17 <oklopol> but nooooo, it just says for the first one
04:26:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
04:41:24 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: i'm pretty sure you couldn't make an irc server that follows the spec completely in 100 lines
04:41:35 <oklopol> since there are over 100 lines of responces
04:42:21 <RodgerTheGreat> depends on the language and the definition of a "line"
04:42:35 <oklopol> my irc server works now, though you can just join and change nick :P
04:42:59 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: usually line is 88 chars at most iirc
04:43:48 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: connect to my ip and join #test :P
04:44:09 <RodgerTheGreat> in a couple 20-line coding challenges, I've seen line defined as 255 characters or less
04:44:21 <oklopol> well that would be more sensible
04:44:31 <oklopol> i just recall it was 8x...
04:44:32 <RodgerTheGreat> usually with a max of 15 keywords or something like that
04:45:02 <oklopol> you can't even /part yet :D
04:45:24 <oklopol> and i'm not sure if all clients will even work...
04:45:27 -!- rutlov has joined.
04:50:27 -!- rutlov has left (?).
05:03:24 <RodgerTheGreat> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia%2C_Pennsylvania <- interesting article
05:03:53 <RodgerTheGreat> "There are no current plans to extinguish the fire, which is consuming an eight-mile seam containing enough coal to fuel it for 250 years."
05:19:59 <pikhq> Everyone complains about the weather, but nobody does anything about it.
05:20:12 <pikhq> All in favor of designed a weather control device?
05:58:59 <pikhq> We need to steal _Back to the Future, Part II_'s entire tech tree.
05:59:54 <pikhq> (if nothing else, I want a flux capacitor)
06:06:15 -!- importantshock has quit (Remote closed the connection).
06:15:45 -!- jix_ has quit (Nick collision from services.).
06:16:03 -!- jix__ has joined.
06:27:43 <pikhq> Permission requested to change the topic in honor of PEBBLEversery on the 3rd. . .
07:54:23 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:20:58 -!- Tritonio has joined.
09:06:34 -!- sebbu has joined.
09:31:38 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
09:37:15 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
09:37:16 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
09:56:11 -!- RedDak has joined.
10:43:34 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
12:12:57 -!- ehird` has joined.
12:30:51 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
12:48:10 -!- Tritonio has joined.
13:09:25 <ehird`> my site i made in 10 minutes is #1 on digg.
13:09:29 <ehird`> http://digg.com/playable_web_games/The_Most_Pointless_Website_Ever
13:11:20 <oklopol> are there 100 hits a second :|
13:12:10 <ehird`> login and look at the counter
13:12:16 <ehird`> (registering is just user and pass)
13:12:20 <ehird`> you can see the highscores going up
13:12:36 <ehird`> there are like 50 people logged into the digg account
13:12:42 <ehird`> i have no idea how it got to #1
13:12:47 <ehird`> but shit, im #1 on digg's front page.
13:13:04 <oklopol> how did you get ppl to know that page existed?
13:13:18 <ehird`> it started off in an irc channel
13:13:25 <ehird`> then i posted it on the forum whose irc channel it is
13:13:28 <ehird`> then someone posted it to digg
13:13:34 <ehird`> then other people on the forum digged it, then random people digged it
13:13:46 <ehird`> and got on the frontpage at the top
13:14:01 <ehird`> and i am very noble, not adding ads or anything
13:14:19 <ehird`> i want to code that shoutbox but i can't because it freezes the interface
13:14:23 <ehird`> and i doubt all of them will refresh
13:16:50 <oklopol> i refreshed and the page died :P
13:51:55 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
14:03:51 -!- RedDak has joined.
14:20:37 <oklopol> 160 or something per second
14:25:16 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:36:16 -!- importantshock has joined.
14:40:41 -!- importantshock_ has joined.
14:40:53 -!- importantshock has quit (Nick collision from services.).
14:40:55 -!- importantshock_ has changed nick to importantshock.
15:16:45 <oklopol> pikhq: is there gonna be network support for PEBBLE using that Sgeo's thing?
15:22:50 <pikhq> oklopol: Eventually.
15:23:29 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: I challenge you, sir, to create both an IRC client and server in PEBBLE
15:24:37 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
15:26:05 <oklopol> perhaps at least not before that thing exists
15:33:22 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
15:35:29 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Evil. . .
15:37:11 <RodgerTheGreat> I dunno, *doing* it in PEBBLE shouldn't be all that horrible, but debugging it will be pure hell
15:44:15 -!- sebbu has joined.
15:44:49 -!- sebbu has left (?).
15:49:02 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out).
16:05:36 <oklopol> ehird`: the counter moves pretty fast, ay?
16:06:03 -!- ihope has joined.
16:06:05 <oklopol> you took down my favorite game :<
16:06:30 <ihope> Hey, bsmntbombdood is missing.
16:06:56 <oklopol> that was a fast set subtraction
16:36:08 <ehird`> oklopol: sorry, but i like my server
16:36:32 <ehird`> THINGS WE HAVE LEARNED TODAY:
16:36:42 <ehird`> - digg users are automated bots with no natural processing power
16:36:59 <ehird`> - /b/ users have natural processing power but only use it for emulating automated bots with no natural processing power
16:36:59 <ihope> What's "natural" processing power?
16:37:09 <ehird`> ihope: processing power in the brain, not e.g. a cpu
16:37:20 <ehird`> Monthly Transfer: 10.36 GB (4.86 transmit / 5.51 receive)
16:37:42 <ehird`> So 10gb in that short time!
16:39:25 <ehird`> I enjoyed Counter. Thank you!
16:41:26 <oklopol> god there's a lot to do in the irc server spec
16:41:56 <oklopol> that's not even the server-server spec
16:42:00 <oklopol> http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/rfc/rfc2812.txt <<< server-client spec
16:42:16 <oklopol> even that has a LOT of shit
16:42:51 <oklopol> i think i'll gradually grow mine to be closer and closer to the spec
16:45:26 <oklopol> it actually already has almost everything you need for irc...
16:47:04 <ihope> What ever happened to RFC 1459?
16:48:09 <oklopol> people die when they get old
16:53:10 <ihope> So there are entirely new IRC specs now?
17:01:31 <ihope> Well, yes. New, but not entirely.
17:14:02 <oklopol> in python, can i delete the value the iterator poits to from the iterated thingie when doing a for loop
17:14:31 <RodgerTheGreat> well, you can't do that in most languages with iterators...
17:15:16 <oklopol> glargh, it's such a frequent thing
17:15:49 <RodgerTheGreat> wouldn't it make more sense to break, or am I misunderstanding the question?
17:16:33 <oklopol> i need to remove the current iterator value from the container
17:17:22 <ihope> Would I understand this better if I'd previously known that iterators pointed to things?
17:17:52 <oklopol> like, i have [1,2,3], i iterate it through, and if i find 2, i remove it
17:19:10 <ihope> My guess is you want either a list comprehension or the filter function.
17:19:20 <oklopol> yes, if i do that functionally
17:19:29 <RodgerTheGreat> I would just iterate through the list manually- I mean, fuck iterators, really
17:20:18 <oklopol> i don't wanna duplicate the whole container every time i do this, so i don't want filter
17:20:33 <RodgerTheGreat> 'course, I'm the nutcase that regularly implements his own stacks inside objects simply because it seems easier that way
17:20:35 <oklopol> i want to do a constant time delete.
17:20:44 <oklopol> it's not a constant time delete anyway
17:20:51 <oklopol> but whaddyagonna do, it's python
17:21:23 <ihope> So you have a variable containing [1,2,3] and you want to change it to [1,3]?
17:21:30 <ihope> Or, you know, something similar.
17:21:30 <oklopol> i guess i could make a hashing for my objects and have that
17:21:57 <oklopol> ihope: i want iterators to be removable from whatever they're iterating through
17:21:58 <RodgerTheGreat> see, my first guess would be to just remove the 2 from the *original* list, rather than trying to pull it out of the iterator
17:22:13 <RodgerTheGreat> but when you do it that way there's no advantage to using iterators in the first place
17:22:26 <oklopol> well yeah, i could just make another container and copy everything but 2 there
17:23:24 <oklopol> i don't really care what iterators should be used for, all i know is i didn't want to do that functionally, but now i have to
17:26:32 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p455223544.txt
17:28:21 <oklopol> hmm... i should make that for any size lists
17:28:28 <oklopol> i mean, any number of keys
17:30:02 <oklopol> i know it does, it's just i feel it's a bit too much code for something that trivial :)
17:31:33 <oklopol> well, i'm pretty sure it works, and it worked when i tested it, i don't *know* it works for any case...
17:31:47 <oklopol> actually i've done one test case.
17:43:39 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p225212312.txt
17:44:03 <oklopol> i love how python looks <3
17:44:13 <oklopol> when there's no ugly whitespace
17:46:33 <oklopol> for example that simple cartesian product... you have to hack it in with iteration and a boolean to indicate whether the thing was found
17:46:55 <oklopol> it's like 5 lines for something conceptually overtrivial
17:47:39 <oklopol> well, i guess i could just make the necessary functions myself and not expect python to have everything i need built-in
17:52:14 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
18:05:04 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:08:28 -!- sebbu2 has left (?).
18:15:27 -!- importantshock has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
18:16:24 -!- jix__ has quit (Nick collision from services.).
18:16:28 -!- jix_ has joined.
18:18:14 <ehird`> oklopol: itssss bacckkkkkk http://w.elliotthird.org/counter/
19:09:21 <ehird`> oklopol: your position in the rankings is being threatened
19:17:28 <oklopol> perhaps because i stopped playing :P
19:24:11 <ihope> ehird`: what does that do?
19:24:24 <ihope> Is there a button people can click to make the counter go higher or something?
19:26:07 <ihope> Clearly, I should make a program that sends whatever thing to the server repeatedly.
19:27:01 <ihope> Or I could just hold down "enter".
19:28:10 <ihope> I wonder how many I have...
19:31:52 <ihope> Hmm, digg/digg is winning.
19:32:00 <ihope> Maybe I shouldn't have used a password :-P
19:32:40 <ihope> So, the main function is increment_counter().
19:33:04 <ehird`> but if you do it on a personal account i will ban you
19:33:21 <ehird`> And yeah, the button is Increment counter and it sets the counter 1 higher.
19:33:28 <ehird`> The highscores are just the people who have clicked most.
19:33:41 <ihope> Do what on a personal account?
19:34:05 <ehird`> call the increment_counter repeatedly
19:34:17 <ehird`> i cant stop digg doing it because its many people
19:34:26 <ehird`> but anybody else - account deleted
19:34:38 <ihope> You can't delete the digg account? :-P
19:34:59 <ehird`> but then digg would stop coming
19:35:03 <ehird`> and many people don't cheat on the digg account
19:35:28 <ihope> Well, I guess 3133 clicks is "the number".
19:35:53 -!- jix_ has quit ("CommandQ").
19:36:21 <ehird`> get to 3133 and you will be able to see your click count :p
19:38:20 <ehird`> davman is the guy who gave me fanmail for it..
19:38:43 <oklopol> hmm... i can't load the page anymore
19:38:53 <ehird`> http://w.elliotthird.org/counter/
19:40:24 <ehird`> you're on the highscores, ihope
19:43:19 <oklopol> i used to be, then i stopped getting connexion :<
19:44:15 <ehird`> oklopol: you're at #19
19:44:18 <ehird`> just, http://w.elliotthird.org/counter/
19:44:23 <ehird`> ping elliotthird.org or something
19:50:19 <oklopol> i hold enter down all the time and he goes up faster :)
19:50:48 <oklopol> i'm on 3 networks + server my own + have torrents on + 4 bots running
19:51:04 <oklopol> that might... have something to do with it
19:51:34 -!- importantshock has joined.
19:53:00 <ehird`> hah, khauros is SO cheating
19:53:07 <ehird`> he's going up 90 per update
19:53:16 <ehird`> still, if he beats digg it'll be worth it
19:53:48 <ehird`> wow, i think he's actually gonna beat digg
19:55:02 -!- Tritonio_ has joined.
19:56:11 <ehird`> javascript:function test(){increment_counter();self.setTimeout("test()",1);}test();
19:56:23 <ehird`> it's an insta-ban-ticket unless you're about to beat digg like khauros is
19:56:26 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:56:37 <ihope> oklopol: at least you won't have to pass me for a while :-P
19:57:23 <ehird`> can digg stories get on the front page twice?
19:58:51 -!- jix_ has joined.
19:59:08 <oklopol> i now did the non programming version of that
19:59:15 <ihope> ehird`: are you going to wait for Khauros to pass digg and then ban? :-P
19:59:21 <oklopol> have my other keyboard on the floor with a glass on top of enter :)
19:59:45 <ehird`> ihope: nah, ill just tell him to stop after
19:59:48 <oklopol> it's preventing me to use the computer
19:59:57 <ehird`> oklopol: it is kind of cheating but its allowed
20:00:10 <ihope> Oh, good, allowed.
20:00:19 <ihope> You really should specify the rules :-P
20:02:08 <oklopol> i thought games like this are always about connection speed :)
20:02:20 <oklopol> (and the ability to write oneliners)
20:02:51 <oklopol> why does ihope own me all the time
20:03:47 <oklopol> i think it's the fact i'm using a browser
20:04:06 <oklopol> i made this program to fetch random pictures from a site people put their pics in
20:04:25 <oklopol> if you do it via browser, 3 pics / minute
20:04:34 -!- sebbu has joined.
20:04:39 <oklopol> well, sometimes a lot faster, but never anything near my program
20:04:50 -!- sebbu has left (?).
20:07:12 * ehird` disappears for a while
20:10:07 -!- importantshock has quit.
20:11:13 <ihope> Hey! Turris is moving! How unfair.
20:19:40 <ihope> Okay, enough of that for now.
20:20:21 <ihope> I was using a browser for this...
20:26:07 <oklopol> ehird`: how long's that gonna be there?
20:26:12 * pikhq wonders where Sgeo's latest PSOX spec is
20:37:56 -!- RedDak has joined.
20:40:13 <oklopol> digg is still going at a quite impressing rate
20:52:06 <ihope> Hmm, indeed, rather impressive.
20:52:29 <ihope> Now, is there a contest like that except with "click a certain button" replaced by "send a byte to the server on a certain port"?
20:53:39 <oklopol> there should be, since that's basically the same, but you don't have to cheat
20:53:53 <oklopol> though for many cheating might be the thrill
20:55:05 <RodgerTheGreat> there's a link-clicking game called "outwar" similar to that, as I recall
20:55:15 <RodgerTheGreat> the trick is that clicks have to be from different IPs
20:57:59 <ihope> oklopol: depends on what you count as cheating.
20:58:21 <ihope> Is telnet server < /dev/zero cheating?
20:58:59 <ihope> RodgerTheGreat: http://www.free-games.com.au/Detailed/205.html?
21:00:05 <ihope> Which, I suppose, is http://www.outwar.com/...
21:00:06 <oklopol> ihope: i mean ehird`'s game may be nicer as long as doing that is considered cheating
21:02:28 * ihope ponders choosing "Who is your favorite teacher?" for his security question
21:02:31 <oklopol> hhah! i'm waaaaaaaaaay before ihope now
21:02:46 <ihope> oklopol: "before"?
21:02:51 * ihope uses a bogus answer instead
21:03:25 <ihope> How many do we each have?
21:03:41 <ihope> Shall I start moving again?
21:04:05 <ihope> Um, I suggest /parting.
21:04:11 <ihope> You're sort of spamming the channel.
21:04:25 <oklopol> http://petition.co.uk (61432)
21:04:27 <oklopol> http://petition.co.uk (61432)
21:04:41 -!- oklopol has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:04:44 -!- oklopol has joined.
21:04:58 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure i selected just myself from the list
21:05:07 <ihope> Apparently, you didn't.
21:05:12 <oklopol> also, part wouldn't work, neither would closing the window
21:06:01 <ihope> Ah, indeed, you're past me.
21:06:54 <oklopol> gonna leave that on for a few weeks
21:07:21 <ihope> I think you'll be on top by then :-P
21:07:47 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure there are bots that are left on forever there
21:08:28 <oklopol> it's a bit harder for me since i'm actually pressing enter all the time
21:08:44 <ihope> Find some coins and stack them :-)
21:08:51 <ihope> How many computers do you have?
21:09:37 <ihope> Maybe I'll send you the oldest one we have. :-P
21:09:55 <ihope> No, oldest computer.
21:10:06 <ihope> It has a CPU speed display on the front.
21:10:15 <oklopol> the rich answer was for stacking coins
21:10:39 <oklopol> and i'm getting a small handheld one
21:10:44 <ihope> You're not rich enough to have coins?
21:10:56 <oklopol> i just never throw anything out
21:11:19 <ihope> Are you in some weird country where coins are more valuable than bills rather than the other way around? :-P
21:11:34 <oklopol> no, i'm in a country where ppl tell jokes!
21:11:43 <ihope> Ah. That IS weird.
21:11:58 <ihope> We don't tell jokes here. Everybody is always completely serious.
21:12:28 <ihope> I looked up the world's funniest joke online. I doubted its veracity.
21:12:38 <ihope> Then I looked up the definition of "joke" online. Now I know.
21:13:45 <oklopol> i've never laughed at a *joke* joke
21:14:47 <ihope> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_funniest_joke
21:15:33 <ihope> I generally don't laugh at things either.
21:16:05 <ihope> The funniest thing I remember is Student Bloopers.
21:16:56 <pikhq> Besides, the world's funniest joke is a Monty Python skit.
21:17:22 <pikhq> "Wenn ist das Nunstück git und Slotermeyer? Ja! ... Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput."
21:17:50 * pikhq kills all the German speakers. >:D
21:18:13 <ihope> You killed jix_, maybe!
21:18:21 <ihope> At least he died happily, maybe.
21:18:27 -!- jix_ has left (?).
21:18:47 <pikhq> After all, he did die of laughter.
21:18:55 <ihope> And of CommandW, I guess.
21:19:02 <ihope> "Nero was a cruel tyrany who would torture his poor subjects by playing the fiddle to them."
21:19:03 -!- jix_ has joined.
21:19:59 <ihope> Stop violating continuity!
21:20:11 -!- jix_ has left (?).
21:21:09 -!- jix_ has joined.
21:21:54 <ihope> Look, if you're not going to stay dead, at least go back and time and make it so you were never killed.
21:24:47 <ihope> We might as well be random, now.
21:26:10 <ihope> "Beethoven wrote music even though he was deaf. He was so deaf he wrote loud music. He took long walks in the forest even when everyone was calling for him."
21:26:17 <oklopol> perhaps i'll stay up to whole night and do absolutely nothing
21:27:58 <ihope> "Beethoven expired in 1827 and later died for this."
21:27:58 <oklopol> >>> i okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
21:27:59 <ololobot> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
21:28:28 <ihope> "Queen Victoria was the longest queen. She sat on a thorn for 63 years. He reclining years and finally the end of her life were exemplatory of a great personality. Her death was the final event which ended her reign."
21:28:43 <ihope> How interesting. What is this?
21:29:12 <oklopol> that is... a cat command :)
21:29:54 <ihope> Yes, that certainly...
21:30:04 <ihope> http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~norman/Jokes-file/StudentBloopers.htm
21:30:42 <oklopol> was the first one somehow wrong too?
21:31:15 <ihope> Well, not so much wrong as just plain silly.
21:31:28 <oklopol> well the last sentence is kinda funny
21:31:48 <ihope> "The First World War, cause by the assignation of the Arch-Duck by a surf, ushered in a new error in the anals of human history"?
21:32:30 <pikhq> "the victims of the Black Death grew boobs on their necks."
21:32:52 <pikhq> "In midevil times most of the people were alliterate." Appropriate
21:34:31 <ihope> So, um, what's it do?
21:34:48 <ololobot> These are all the cmds currently in ololobot:
21:34:48 <ololobot> bf, bs, expr, help, numbda, pl, ul, dict, feed, sch, o, x, k, i, s, factors, in-pr, in-po, in-fi
21:34:58 <ololobot> This is a simple brainfuck interpreter.
21:34:58 <ololobot> ">>> [Wnnn] code [<<< input]" to run, where [...]'s are optional.
21:34:58 <ololobot> Wnnn sets wrapping, nnn is any number that fits an irc message.
21:35:09 <pikhq> Well, *K* is /xy.x
21:35:29 <ihope> Indeed, I keep using > for some reason.
21:35:38 <oklopol> numbda is a language i made some time ago
21:36:08 <oklopol> currently it's basically just basic arithmetic+vars+function calls+lambdas,
21:36:25 <oklopol> but the interpreter isn't working yet, fully, so iu haven't finished the lang
21:36:44 <oklopol> it should be a language where lambdas are implicit
21:37:10 <oklopol> (x+3) == lambda x:x+3 if used out of x's namespace
21:37:28 <oklopol> otherwise (x+3) == ...well, x+3
21:38:23 <ihope> Hmm... I think I prefer more explicit stuff.
21:38:33 <ihope> flip (+) 3, (+3), \x -> x+3.
21:39:48 <oklopol> if a subexpression uses a variable X that is not in the current namespace, that subexpression is considered a lambda that takes one argument, and sets X to that
21:40:12 <oklopol> otherwise the subexpression is not considered a lambda, but a simple expression that is evaluated.
21:40:31 <oklopol> >>> numda k={a->{b->a}};k!6!7
21:40:36 <ihope> What's (x + 3) * 4?
21:40:38 <oklopol> >>> numbda k={a->{b->a}};k!6!7
21:40:47 <oklopol> that doesn't work, in general.
21:41:04 <ihope> (x + 3) is the subexpression here?
21:41:45 <ihope> So is the subexpression pretty much as small as it can reasonably be?
21:42:18 <oklopol> it's the shortest possible x+3, yes
21:43:03 <oklopol> it has first order lambdas, but operators are on a different level
21:43:13 <oklopol> you have to use ! to use your own lambdas/functionsa
21:43:47 <oklopol> >>> numbda k={a->{b->a}};s={a->{b->{c->(a!c)!(b!c)}}};s!k!k!4
21:44:04 <oklopol> spaces. (x + 3) * 4 -> (x+3)*4, i mean
21:44:47 <ihope> They're different, you mean?
21:44:57 <oklopol> no, the latter is just shorter
21:45:06 <oklopol> (23:40:21) (ihope) So is the subexpression pretty much as small as it can reasonably be? <<< i was sommenting to this
21:45:08 <ihope> Do spaces matter at all in this language?
21:46:29 <oklopol> because -> is the only operator with two chars, and > isn't a prefix operator
21:47:17 <ihope> >>> numbda k={a->{b ->a}};s = {a->{b- >{c->(a!c ) !(b!c)}} };s !k!k!4
21:47:24 <ihope> >>> numbda k={a->{b ->a}};s = {a->{b- >{c->(a!c ) !(b!c)}} };s !k!k!4
21:47:32 <oklopol> in that implementation, i can't guarantee a thing :)
21:48:00 <oklopol> oh, indeed, you can't separate "->", or varnames
21:48:18 <ololobot> lazy:[apply opr:-> to id:a(0) and num:3]
21:48:44 <oklopol> >>> numbda k={a->{b ->a}};s = {a->{b->{c->(a!c ) !(b!c)}} };s !k!k!44
21:49:04 <oklopol> you did exactly that, separated ->
21:49:59 <oklopol> i always parse -> in the end of a message as "i'm leaving"
21:50:51 <oklopol> my whole computer crashed from pressing enter :)
21:51:19 -!- jix_ has quit ("CommandQ").
21:51:30 <oklopol> i did the same thing on windows for just as long, though also had about 50 other programs running
21:53:29 <ihope> I think I'll implement SKI in my improved parser language.
21:53:40 <ihope> Then I'll come up with a spec for my improved parser language :-P
21:54:39 <ihope> Hmm, now I'm wanting Ubuntu back.
21:54:55 <ihope> Because Gentoo is sort of not working :-P
21:55:29 <oklopol> my experience with ubuntu has been a bit bad
21:55:35 <ihope> I could get it to work with enough Google searches and support pestering, but...
21:55:44 <oklopol> it's crashed more times over my short use than my windows machines in a year
21:55:55 <ihope> Hmm. I don't think it's ever crashed here.
21:56:44 <ihope> What other things do you use?
21:57:17 <ihope> Operating systems.
21:57:28 <ihope> (Hmm, it's hard to type and regularly press the CD eject button at the same time.)
21:57:28 <oklopol> i have windows on this machine and ubuntu on the other
21:58:16 <ihope> Well, it doesn't work while the Gentoo LiveCD is running, so I have to reboot it and then press the button before it checks for an OS on the CD.
21:58:57 <ihope> Now to try to get Ubuntu running, since its live CD is a little unreliable.
22:00:07 <ihope> Or maybe I should just RTF Gentoo M.
22:03:34 <ehird`> the only decent ubuntu
22:04:08 <ehird`> it's fast as hell, comes with lots of decent apps, highly customizable but easy to use, and has many optional visual effects
22:06:21 <ehird`> xubuntu is perfect for both kde and gnome users i find
22:06:30 <ehird`> it's simple enough for gnome users to get the hang of it, but without the annoying bugs
22:06:43 <ehird`> and it's as configurable as kde users expect
22:08:30 <oklopol> all i can think of that an os could offer is a better file/networking/process system, as far as i know, unix's is pretty much the same as windows's
22:08:54 <oklopol> and i have no idea why i always start begging for a fight by saying stuff like that
22:09:19 <ihope> Does Windows have chroot?
22:09:31 <oklopol> for a while there i thought ubuntu had recovered :)
22:09:36 <ihope> It's a teeny tiny bit essential :-P
22:09:44 <oklopol> okay, unix's access stuff is better
22:09:47 <ehird`> ihope: nope, it doesn;t
22:10:34 <ihope> Hmm... maybe it's not that essential.
22:10:42 <pikhq> oklopol: Sounds like Plan9.
22:10:46 <ihope> How easy is it to write a program that adds a user?
22:10:59 <oklopol> i don't see how you'd ever need to do that
22:11:52 <oklopol> well yeah, but adding a user is just one means of doing that
22:12:07 <ihope> How can it be done nicely under Windows?
22:12:27 <oklopol> but then again, i don't really use other ppl's code, so i just write safe code.
22:13:08 <ihope> Does that mean you wrote your own IRC client, too?
22:13:33 <ihope> Or by "code" do you mean "source code"?
22:13:39 <oklopol> that means i feel bad unless i do
22:13:43 <pikhq> oklopol: You don't like free software?!?
22:13:53 <oklopol> pikhq: i like receiving, not giving
22:14:00 <ehird`> i didn't write this? then i better rewrite a clone of it
22:14:13 <ehird`> oklopol: so basically you're a selfish person
22:14:18 <ehird`> that's not the best life skill you can have ;P
22:14:21 <ihope> What's "NIH" stand for?
22:14:26 <pikhq> Not Invented Here.
22:15:13 <oklopol> ehird`: i do like to receive, but i do not encourage anyone to share.
22:16:02 <ihope> Well, they are giving it away.
22:16:08 <oklopol> (pikhq) oklopol: You don't like free software?!? <<< what was that for an argument then?
22:16:17 <pikhq> Free as in freedom.
22:16:34 <pikhq> Not an argument, more asking "what the hell?"
22:16:42 <ehird`> i believe if you use free/open-source/whatever-fscking-term-you-like-to-debate-about software, it's good to consider releasing at least some of your software the same way
22:16:52 <ehird`> it just helps the continuum keep going
22:17:09 <oklopol> i do not understand how i can ever get money for my programs if i do open source
22:17:11 <pikhq> I've got a different belief, ehird. . .
22:17:41 <oklopol> that's my only problem with open source
22:17:42 <ihope> GPL: if you add to this program, GIMME! :-P
22:17:47 <pikhq> And, as I've argued previously, you can make money with free software.
22:17:53 <ehird`> oklopol: SOLUTION - don't try and make money off software
22:17:57 <oklopol> and the fact people start bitching about minor details they don't like about my programming style
22:18:06 <oklopol> ehird`: okay... then how do i get money?
22:18:12 <ihope> oklopol: with a job?
22:18:30 <oklopol> that's all i ever want to do, naturally
22:18:37 <ehird`> this world is not a utopia
22:18:40 <ihope> Programming jobs don't pay?
22:19:04 <oklopol> i never thought os ppl actually thought programming isn't something you can make a living off
22:19:07 <ehird`> ihope: programming is hardly the simplest industry to get into
22:19:09 <pikhq> I'll be sure to tell that to Sun, Red Hat, and Novell employees.
22:19:13 <ehird`> oklopol: no, I think that
22:19:27 <pikhq> oklopol: No, they think it doesn't matter whether or not you can; freedom is more important.
22:19:50 <oklopol> i prefer money over lazyness.
22:20:17 <ihope> I've suddenly forgotten what we're talking about.
22:20:25 <oklopol> i just said i don't like open source
22:20:25 <ehird`> oklopol: well, get a job other than programming... the probability of being able to sustain yourself fully from programming is very small
22:20:25 <ihope> Is it about how oklopol can make money?
22:20:31 <oklopol> i like saying that once in a while
22:20:45 -!- ihope has left (?).
22:21:12 <ehird`> oklopol: ooh, let's think, one of the thousands of other jobs in the world?
22:21:18 <ehird`> hardly any choice is there!
22:21:44 <ehird`> are you sheltered or just very ignorant?
22:21:50 <oklopol> i'm definately gonna do anything where i have to... do something but program
22:22:12 <pikhq> You could program and make money off of it. . .
22:22:34 <pikhq> I hear Red Hat, Novell, Sun, etc. are willing to pay for free software developers.
22:22:34 <oklopol> pikhq: ehird` said that is not possible
22:22:58 <ehird`> oklopol: i just said that it's hardly the most stable industry to get into easily
22:23:10 <pikhq> oklopol: Reality disagrees (although given the right circumstances, it could be difficult) ;)
22:23:11 <oklopol> i hope the os movement just dies, i'm a dreamer, you see.
22:23:22 <ehird`> oklopol: wow, uh, i'd like to see a future with that
22:23:30 <ehird`> oklopol: you'll be running on... how shall i put it... low tech?
22:23:34 <pikhq> And free software doesn't involve dreaming?
22:23:52 <oklopol> not really, you can't devote your life to something you don't get paid for
22:23:57 <ehird`> "OS MOVEMENT SHOULD DIE BECAUSE I WANT IT TO WHAT DO YOU MEAN TECHNOLOGY PROGRESS WOULD STOP <3" "I WILL NOT GET ANY JOB BUT PROGRAMMING"
22:24:03 <ehird`> oklopol: umm, heard of "hobbies"?
22:24:16 <pikhq> oklopol: I'll be sure to tell that to Gandhi.
22:24:44 <oklopol> pikhq: hardly a good point.
22:25:22 <ehird`> stallman is crazy-ass anyway
22:25:37 <oklopol> if there really aren't many programming jobs available when i finish university, i'll just be jobless i guess
22:25:53 <ehird`> just wither away and die or something
22:25:54 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:25:57 <pikhq> Somewhere without programming jobs is probably 3rd-world. . .
22:26:26 <oklopol> pikhq: i'm just responding to you ppl saying there aren't many programming jobs available.
22:26:32 <pikhq> oklopol: That's ehird, not me.
22:26:47 <oklopol> pikhq: you said something vague about reality, i may have misinterpreted
22:27:42 <ehird`> well his logic is outstanding
22:28:55 <oklopol> (00:17:40) (oklopol) i never thought os ppl actually thought programming isn't something you can make a living off
22:28:58 <oklopol> (00:17:49) (ehird`) oklopol: no, I think that
22:29:05 <oklopol> i guess i failed with all the negations.
22:29:23 <oklopol> english is a bit ambiguous.
22:29:41 <oklopol> (00:19:01) (ehird`) oklopol: well, get a job other than programming... the probability of being able to sustain yourself fully from programming is very small <<< very small probability
22:30:12 <oklopol> i guess i misunderstood you
22:30:22 <oklopol> then this conversation has been most redundant :)
22:31:23 <pikhq> ehird`: Also, Stallman is no more a nutcase than you are. ;p
22:31:48 <ehird`> pikhq: no, stallman is a complete nutcase
22:32:02 <ehird`> pikhq: you can't tell? :)
22:32:21 <ehird`> it's a subjective opinion
22:32:34 <pikhq> Demonstrate some things that make him a nutcase to you.
22:34:27 <oklopol> ehird`: just out of curiosity, what would you be willing to do if you didn't get a programming job?
22:34:32 <ehird`> his nutcasery, pikhq? ;)
22:34:41 <ehird`> oklopol: any reasonable job?
22:35:05 <oklopol> but can't think of anything else reasonable
22:35:35 <ehird`> get back to me when i've regained control over my lungs
22:35:36 <pikhq> ehird`: You suck at defending yourself.
22:36:00 <oklopol> ehird`: that wasn't a joke, really, but please answer :\
22:36:32 <oklopol> okay, in theory i could be a musician, but i don't enjoy the social aspect
22:36:42 <oklopol> just being a composer doesn't make a living
22:36:56 <oklopol> really, what's a reasonable job?
22:37:10 <oklopol> i doubt yours are the same as mine
22:37:20 <oklopol> would that be like... a shop clerk?
22:37:55 <oklopol> i could also be like a mad professor
22:41:04 * ehird` is lying dead on the floor
22:43:22 <oklopol> ehird`: are you gonna answer me? :<
22:44:15 <oklopol> "just out of curiosity, what would you be willing to do if you didn't get a programming job?"
22:46:43 <ehird`> beggar wouldn't be cool
22:47:11 <oklopol> if they allow computers in prisons, that's one thing i could do, do someting criminal and program all day
22:48:59 <oklopol> one thing i've always thought about is a janitor
22:49:21 <oklopol> like, for example, at a school
22:49:28 <oklopol> (if they still have janitors)
22:49:56 <oklopol> well, anything where you can lock yourself up somewhere, really
22:50:15 <oklopol> guess i'm a bit agoraphobic or smth
22:51:41 -!- ihope has joined.
22:52:19 <oklopol> and then i asked her to pee in my mouth
22:52:53 <ihope> Did I join at exactly the wrong time?
22:53:06 <oklopol> sorry, just an old joke of mine
22:53:29 <ihope> Explains the lack of context in the logs :-P
22:54:41 <ihope> No, ehird` is median!
22:54:44 <ehird`> i prefer "and then it got all over the keyboard, and oh god it was wet and sticky"
22:54:50 <ihope> 50th percentile exactly.
22:54:51 <ehird`> for out of context quotes
22:55:19 <oklopol> well yeah, but context ones are a bit different
22:55:21 <ihope> Maybe you could quote subject lines of spam.
22:55:22 <ehird`> because you can clarify it with "i was drinking soda and it spilled"
22:56:45 <ihope> There's "My boyfriend's . . .".
22:57:20 <ihope> Which I guess is the same template as "My new guy's . . .".
22:57:50 <ihope> Not sure about "When I tried to . . ." and "I just started . . .".
22:58:23 <ihope> Wow. Even "Can you tell me . . ." is one of that template.
22:58:35 <oklopol> umm... how do you use these?
22:59:12 <ihope> They're not really that good.
22:59:22 <ihope> There's more to it than the part I quoted.
22:59:28 <ihope> Check your spam folder for the rest. :-P
23:00:20 <oklopol> i used to get some, but... then it just stopped
23:00:44 <oklopol> i actually give the address away a lot
23:00:48 -!- theoros has joined.
23:01:11 <oklopol> i don't know anything about the email, it's a webmail from our school
23:01:27 <ihope> Sounds like that'd have a spam filter.
23:02:20 <ihope> I guess these subject lines are a little gross.
23:02:42 <ihope> Sort of very dirty.
23:02:56 <oklopol> well yes, that's why i asked
23:03:19 <ihope> Want me to tell you one?
23:03:53 <ihope> Perhaps not THAT dirty.
23:03:59 <ihope> Certainly a little dirty.
23:04:46 <oklopol> well yes, but can you make that undirty in the right context?
23:04:54 <oklopol> i've heard worse on this channel
23:05:09 <oklopol> you could've said it here, i mean
23:05:15 <ihope> Yeah, I could have.
23:05:24 <oklopol> "can you make that undirty in the right context?"
23:05:28 <oklopol> i think that's... pretty clear
23:13:29 * ihope ponders SKI calculus
23:13:46 <ihope> I "should" be working on getting Gentoo going.
23:14:44 <ihope> No, I'm still pondering.
23:14:51 <ihope> Actually, it's SK calculus.
23:14:52 <oklopol> what are you pondering about it?
23:15:02 <ihope> How to implement it.
23:15:18 <ihope> I'll call it SKI calculus any way, then :-P
23:15:32 <oklopol> yeah, we all know the basics here anyway
23:15:35 <ihope> I'm implementing it in this parsing-based language.
23:15:48 <oklopol> parsing-based, wanna enlighten me?
23:15:56 <ihope> Every first-class value is a parser.
23:16:31 <oklopol> so basically a function parses it's arguments?
23:16:35 <pikhq> No, it's SK"/x.SKKx" calculus.
23:16:45 <ihope> Parsers return strings, but a string is indistinguishable from a parser immediately returning that string.
23:17:03 <ihope> What a function parses isn't one of its arguments.
23:17:19 <ihope> Rather, what a parser parses.
23:17:30 <oklopol> Let's be more formal, like ihope would say.
23:17:46 <oklopol> a parser does string->parser->string
23:18:02 <ihope> Sort of tricky to put formally, I guess. Lemme think...
23:18:23 <oklopol> it's kinda like tree rewriting, but you have to serialize between steps?
23:20:16 <oklopol> how is the overall data in a program presented?
23:20:18 <ihope> Okay, I think I've got it, greatly.
23:20:22 <oklopol> is it one string at every stage?
23:21:24 <oklopol> oaky was a language i started making for tree-rewriting exactly, before i'd actually tried programming in a tree-rewriting language
23:21:33 <oklopol> i stopped because it wasn't esoteric enough
23:22:15 <ihope> First of all, there's the regexes, which are parsers. /foo/, for example, looks at the current string. If the string begins with "foo", it removes the "foo" from the beginning and returns "foo". If the string doesn't begin with "foo", it fails.
23:23:13 <ihope> parser[string] runs parser with string as its current string, then returns whatever the parser returns, ignoring the new current string.
23:23:59 <oklopol> so /foo/["okokoko"] would fail, /foo/["fookokoko"] would return "foo"?
23:24:20 <ihope> /fo*/ matches f followed by any number of o.
23:24:32 <ihope> I'll get to failing later.
23:24:45 <oklopol> i might guess what that means, but do continue
23:24:48 <ihope> So /fo*/["fooooobar"] returns "fooooo".
23:25:03 <ihope> I guess there's no better time to explain failing than now.
23:25:26 <ihope> Next piece of syntax: parser | otherparser
23:26:14 <ihope> That runs parser on the current string. If parser returned something, it returns whatever parser returned. If parser failed, it pretends parser didn't run at all, then acts like otherparser.
23:26:48 <ihope> So (/foo/|/bar/)["fooquux"] returns "foo", while (/foo/|/bar/)["barquux"] returns "bar".
23:27:09 <oklopol> so... o="oh"; f="ohoho"; ((o|f)"x")["ohohox"] won't match?
23:27:19 <oklopol> you prolly don't get my syntax...
23:27:39 <oklopol> "oh" and "ohoho" are regexes
23:27:54 <oklopol> o=/oh/; f=/ohoho/; ((o|f)/x/)["ohohox"]
23:27:56 <ihope> You like the letter "o", don't you? :-P
23:28:21 <ihope> Assuming you mean concatenation there... hmm, lemme think about that.
23:28:32 <ihope> Yes, you're right.
23:28:36 <oklopol> that is the problem with that kind of trivial failing
23:29:07 <oklopol> but, you can just make the programmer have their own way of getting around that.
23:29:07 <ihope> (o|f) would chomp the "oh" and leave /x/ with "ohox".
23:29:17 <ihope> Next piece of syntax: parser + otherparser
23:30:01 <ehird`> who wants to take up implang again?
23:30:10 <ehird`> the first revival didn't work =p
23:30:15 <ihope> This runs parser, then otherparser, and returns the results, concatenated.
23:30:18 <ihope> ehird`: the planned language?
23:30:55 <oklopol> ihope: the problem is regexes are usually stronger than that in that they can go back in time and always choose the right path
23:31:26 <oklopol> if you fail at the end of the test, you should go back to where it last branched and retry
23:31:26 <ihope> I could add another alternation operator to fix that.
23:31:37 <oklopol> though, i think you can just have other functionality to get past that
23:32:09 <oklopol> he always shrugs, just learn to ignore it!
23:32:17 <ihope> ehird`: I was shrugging at oklopol's pointing-out of the regex problem.
23:32:35 <oklopol> anyway, please do continue if you have other stuff
23:33:30 <ihope> Next and biggest piece of syntax is stuff like this: {parserone; x <- parsertwo; parserthree}
23:33:32 <ehird`> ihope: so you haven't responded to the query about the planned languag?
23:33:38 <ihope> ehird`: no, not really.
23:33:54 <ihope> This runs parserone, then runs parsertwo, then sets x to whatever parsertwo returned, then runs parserthree.
23:34:02 <oklopol> ehird`: don't stop the lecture!
23:34:43 <oklopol> ihope: {a;b;c;...;z} is like a+b+c+d+e+...+z?
23:34:46 <ihope> x is only in scope for the rest of the block, so it's not really a variable so much as... something else, I guess.
23:35:00 <ihope> Oh, right. After it runs parserthree, it returns what parserthree returned.
23:36:01 <ihope> Well, it's part of the syntax, just like {} is.
23:36:11 <ihope> It separates the statements inside the block.
23:36:51 <ihope> A declaration takes this form: "function(parameter,otherparameter): expression."
23:37:10 <oklopol> i don't know what i failed
23:37:17 <ehird`> sooo, anyone want to take up implang?
23:37:49 <ihope> Functions take strings; if you try to pass a "non-string-like" parser into a function, you get a runtime error.
23:37:56 <oklopol> i'm gonna do some german work tonight, i think
23:38:04 <ihope> Strings can act as parsers, too: a string ignores the current string and returns itself.
23:38:43 <ihope> So function(/regex/) or function(fail) is a runtime error, since /regex/ doesn't ignore the current string and fail doesn't return anything.
23:38:56 <ihope> (Assuming fail has suddenly turned into a keyword, which it hasn't. :-P)
23:39:18 <ehird`> #thelang for planned implang mk.3
23:39:43 <ihope> Sort of interestingly, // is stringlike: it ignores the current string and returns "".
23:39:51 <ihope> So it's the same as "".
23:39:54 <ihope> And yes, I technically didn't tell you about string literals :-P
23:40:32 <oklopol> you wouldn't have told me if you had something weirder
23:40:35 <ihope> Yes, that works, because fail is what // returned here.
23:41:10 <ihope> I think there are three "strengths" of alternation operator.
23:41:31 <oklopol> {foo=/asdf/;bar=/.*/}["asdfololololo"] = "ololololo"?
23:41:50 <oklopol> {foo=/asdf/;/.*/}["asdfololololo"] = "ololololo"?
23:41:54 <ihope> The "weakest" one assumes that if the string is looked at and the parser doesn't fail immediately, it will never fail.
23:42:28 <ihope> This allows the second option to be forgotten.
23:42:59 <ihope> If part of a block fails, the entire block fails.
23:43:59 <oklopol> you haven't shown me a way to get a new string to parse
23:43:59 <ihope> The "medium" strength doesn't make the assumption that the weakest one does, but it assumes that if the first parser succeeds, it can forget about the second option then.
23:44:51 <oklopol> like, you have to have a way to pass a parser around to be able to get any looping going
23:45:48 <ihope> The "strongest" alternation doesn't make even the assumption that the medium one does: even if the first parser succeeds, any later failure will cause it to switch to the second parser.
23:48:40 <ihope> I think I like the weakest alternator best. It's easy to "work around", and is quick to remove things from memory.
23:49:10 <oklopol> but, to be able to do ski, do you have any kind of flow control?
23:49:26 <oklopol> string *result* catenation etc
23:49:54 <oklopol> otherwise your program just parses one big string character by character
23:49:59 <ihope> Results can be concatenated fine.
23:50:11 <ihope> {x <- parser; y <- parser; parser[x+y]}
23:50:46 <oklopol> that'd use what parser[x+y] returns as the last parser?
23:51:22 <oklopol> indeed, that returns a string
23:51:31 <oklopol> and a string always returns itself
23:52:06 <ihope> Parsers return strings.
23:52:38 <oklopol> it took me a second it doesn't matter if that string that's returned is used as a parsed.
23:53:29 <oklopol> can you pass parsers around?
23:53:41 <oklopol> can you do a <- ... ; {a}?
23:54:11 <oklopol> because recursion is impossible otherwise
23:54:14 <ihope> {a <- ...; {a}} works fine.
23:55:01 <ihope> http://pastebin.ca/677964
23:55:18 <ihope> A = s; B = k; C = `.
23:56:05 <oklopol> where's the actual parser?
23:57:48 <ihope> That program happens to be built from single-letter regexes only.
23:59:15 <ihope> And it works with the weakest alternator.
23:59:32 <ihope> And, assuming I didn't make any big mistakes, it's a valid SK interpreter.
00:00:28 <ihope> As for precedence, I think + should bind more tightly than |.
00:00:47 <ihope> They're both associative, so we don't need to pay attention to that.
00:01:06 <ihope> (At least, I think they are.)
00:01:29 <ihope> I'm guessing right-associativity would be faster in implementation.
00:01:40 <oklopol> well... kinda hard to say which they are,
00:02:38 <ihope> Also, I think brackets should bind even more tightly than +.
00:03:03 <ihope> a + b + c = a + (b + c)
00:03:15 <oklopol> yeah... but what's that mean when you're parsing?
00:03:45 <ihope> I guess it means that for a + b, you assume that a doesn't contain any "top-level" +.
00:03:58 <ihope> "Top-level" meaning not inside a grouping symbol of any sort.
00:06:55 <oklopol> i'im pretty sure that works
00:07:54 <oklopol> i got a bit stuck with fooCC returning "CA"+foo() first, but then realized A is "s", not "i"
00:08:59 <ihope> New version: http://pastebin.ca/679378
00:10:08 <ihope> Complete with multi-character regexes and working with weak alternation.
00:11:43 <RodgerTheGreat> I just got here- could someone briefly explain what that is?
00:12:11 <oklopol> {/``k/; a <- sk(); sk(); a} <<< isn't the a just discarded?
00:12:18 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: a parsing-based language
00:14:33 <oklopol> {/``k/; a <- sk(); sk(); a} <<< does this return a from the whole sk expression?
00:14:46 -!- spacebark has joined.
00:16:30 <oklopol> i never thought it'd be that easy
00:16:48 <oklopol> perhaps because i didn't realize there were functions even though you mentioned them
00:17:54 <oklopol> ihope: what's the name of the lang?
00:18:13 -!- ehird` has quit (No route to host).
00:18:33 <oklopol> also, i think you could squeeze that program smaller
00:18:48 <oklopol> not that i'm necessarily up for the task...
00:20:17 <oklopol> *can't* pass parsers around
00:20:54 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:24:23 <oklopol> oerjan: look it's ski! http://pastebin.ca/679378
00:25:19 <oklopol> i'm gonna go buy something to drink now, before shops are closed ->
00:27:21 -!- spacebark has changed nick to spacebark_.
00:28:16 -!- spacebark_ has changed nick to spacebark.
00:29:58 <oerjan> oklopol: it tries the _last_ option first? otherwise the structure reminds me of haskell's Parsec with monads (especially the <-'s)
00:32:31 <ihope> oerjan: what's this about last option first?
00:33:07 <oerjan> ihope: oklopol's paste
00:33:13 <ihope> And yes, it's sort of a subset of Parsec :-)
00:33:19 <ihope> oerjan: I wrote that program.
00:33:42 -!- rutlov has joined.
00:33:51 <ihope> What's this about trying the last option first?
00:34:03 <oerjan> that's what you would have to do in parsec
00:34:41 -!- rutlov has left (?).
00:35:12 <oerjan> they're actually disjoint, i was confused by no ^$ or similar around k and s
00:35:32 <oerjan> but of course that's not needed for unlambda syntax
00:35:38 <ihope> In parsec, does string "bar" <|> string "baz" work properly, or say that it was expecting r after ba?
00:36:00 <oerjan> no, you need to put try around string "bar"
00:36:31 <oerjan> an option without try is not backtracked unless it consumes no input
00:37:46 <ihope> Here, /bar/ applied to "baz" doesn't consume input.
00:37:53 <oerjan> this allows parsec to prune many branches for efficiency, i believe
00:38:17 <ihope> Otherwise, it works the same way as Parsec when it comes to alternation, I think.
00:49:31 -!- spacebark has quit ("( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: www.XLhost.de )").
00:58:02 <oklopol> i should've known that genius an idea must have come from haskell :)
00:58:13 <oklopol> especially when it's ihopes
00:58:37 <oklopol> uhhh energy, flow through me
00:59:02 <oklopol> some ed energy drink to make my night complete
00:59:27 <oklopol> it seems my friend's bot is still running on my network, so i can't take it offline...
00:59:46 <oklopol> i could do my germans, but BLARGH
00:59:47 <ihope> Does somebody happen to feel like naming, implementing and posting-on-the-wiki my language?
00:59:54 <ihope> (I probably should have thought that word order through better.)
01:00:44 <oklopol> perhaps i just idle and look at this channel?
01:01:36 * ihope pushes the Small Red Button
01:01:38 <oklopol> ihope: what's the reason for not having first-class parsers?
01:01:51 <ihope> oklopol: lack of necessity, I guess.
01:02:04 <ihope> Lack of necessity, possible ease of implementation.
01:02:14 <ihope> Does that actually make it any easier to implement?
01:02:48 <ihope> Ah, maybe it's about blocks.
01:03:17 <ihope> Does the block return the last parser, or run it and return what it returns?
01:03:27 <ihope> And if the latter, how *do* you return the last parser?
01:03:43 <oklopol> you have separate high-level operators
01:04:42 <oklopol> <> takes a string and returns the parser
01:04:46 <ihope> Ah, I see what you mean.
01:05:01 <ihope> What do you mean, takes a string and returns the parser?
01:05:22 <oklopol> because everythign does...
01:05:46 <ihope> What parser does it return?
01:06:12 <ihope> So <"/aaa/"> is /aaa/?
01:06:26 <oklopol> a=</[sk]/>; would help in making the parser
01:06:30 <ihope> Or </aaa/> returns /aaa/?
01:06:33 <oklopol> of course, that's very simple as it is
01:07:14 <ihope> Actually, I do sort of have some... regexes that aren't taken advantage of.
01:08:04 <ihope> http://pastebin.ca/679421
01:10:18 <ihope> Also, I'm not at all using the anchor $, which could be... you know, user as that anchor.
01:10:47 <ihope> /$/ matches only when there's nothing left of the string.
01:11:18 <ihope> Well, it's not required for Turing-completeness, but it'd be nice, I guess.
01:11:21 <oklopol> oh $ is the past-the-end character?
01:12:13 <ihope> /$/["foo"] = immediate fail
01:12:34 <oklopol> /asdf$/["asdf"] = "asdf", /asdf$/["asdffd"] = fail
01:12:50 <oklopol> so it's the past-the-end character
01:13:02 <oklopol> like, something implicitly in the end of every string
01:17:18 <oklopol> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_funniest_joke <<< god the third one is bad
01:17:54 <ihope> This file didn't get written.
01:19:31 <ihope> This time it got written, but it's full of ÿ.
01:20:38 <ihope> It's the output of a certain command.
01:21:17 <ihope> That time it got written properly.
01:24:33 <oklopol> A boy owned a dog that was uncommonly shaggy. Many people remarked upon its considerable shagginess. When the boy learned that there are contests for shaggy dogs, he entered his dog. The dog won first prize for shagginess in both the local and the regional competitions. The boy entered the dog in ever-larger contests, until finally he entered it in the world championship for shaggy dogs. When the judges had inspected all of the competing dogs, they remarke
01:25:50 <oklopol> i don't think it could get any funnier
01:25:54 <ihope> Of course, you can't say "ever-larger contests". You have to say all of them.
01:26:19 <oerjan> of course you can, he just did.
01:26:28 <oklopol> i couldn't tell that joke, it's just too funny
01:26:50 <oerjan> you're just putting us on with that truncation.
01:27:11 <ihope> I'll find the full version.
01:27:35 <oklopol> it's not funny when you say it out loud
01:27:49 <ihope> 'When the judges had inspected all of the competing dogs, they remarked about the boy's dog: "He's not so shaggy."'
01:29:21 <oklopol> oh my god these ppl have been flooding on my server...
01:29:41 <oklopol> like 3 hours it's just been emptying the buffer
01:30:07 -!- importantshock has joined.
01:30:21 <oerjan> i now see why you have to say all of them.
01:31:00 -!- importantshock_ has joined.
01:31:38 -!- importantshock has quit (Nick collision from services.).
01:31:45 -!- importantshock_ has changed nick to importantshock.
01:32:21 <oklopol> pretty weird out of all there people the scandinavians are here.
01:33:06 <oklopol> something to do.. something to do..
01:37:01 <oerjan> it is somewhat difficult to be transitive and symmetric (which it is) but not reflexive - the non-reflexive elements would have to be related to nothing.
01:37:16 <oerjan> Wong Chan-Nel strikes again.
01:39:16 -!- rutlov has joined.
01:40:15 -!- rutlov has left (?).
01:40:56 <ihope> Doesn't seem like an order.
01:42:01 <ihope> Oh, yeah, I see now.
01:42:15 <ihope> Yeah, not related to anything.
01:50:13 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
02:17:00 <ihope> I thought you'd, like, died or something! :-P
02:17:38 <oerjan> old prophets never die! or something.
02:25:18 <ihope> Also, this is cool: http://1089059683/
02:34:08 -!- importantshock has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
02:40:57 <oklopol> CakeProphet: what ihope said
02:41:10 <CakeProphet> ...the CakeProphet project was officially orphaned... so I'm stuck on an outdated revision.
02:41:22 <ihope> CakeProphet: do you intend on dying again any time soon?
02:42:47 <bsmntbombdood> the wall on which \ the prophets wrote \ is cracking \ at the seams
02:52:33 <oklopol> exactly what i was thinking
02:58:53 <ihope> Yeah, you were sort of missed.
03:08:01 <ihope> No, CakeProphet was mist.
03:08:10 <ihope> Never mind that "mist" means "garbage".
03:08:27 <oerjan> i thought it meant fog
03:09:27 <ihope> German slang term, I think.
03:09:53 <oerjan> then it needs to be capitalized by those who do such things
03:10:47 <oklopol> tree rewriting is much harder to codify than i thought...
03:10:48 <ihope> Blah, who actually capitalizes common nouns in German? :-P
03:11:09 <ihope> I don't think English would be much different if we did that here.
03:11:24 <ihope> I meant to capitalize all the common Nouns in that Sentence, but it didn't have any.
03:11:43 <oklopol> none germans awake, can't show ya, but they do use capitals
03:11:46 <ihope> So I did all of them in that one instead.
03:12:40 <ihope> Annoying that you only encounter Nouns when you're not trying to :-P
03:12:48 <ihope> Should I stop capitalizing them now?
03:13:13 <ihope> Hmm, I'll do it... vacuously! >:-)
03:14:37 <oklopol> Why Not Capitalize everything But Annoyingly Forget To capitalize Some Words?
03:15:30 <oklopol> that's what i generally do
03:17:17 <oklopol> I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY HAVE TO KINDS OF LETTERS
03:17:51 <oklopol> EVEN LESS I UNDERSTAND WHY TO HAVE ONE OF THE CASES BE NON UNISIZEY
03:18:02 <oklopol> a, y, l, WHAT'S THAT ABOUT
03:19:41 <oerjan> oklopol: um, to have as much variation as possible to make your visual apparatus pick things up easier?
03:19:49 <chton_> HoW aBoUt AlTeRnAtiNg?
03:20:12 -!- chton_ has changed nick to Chton.
03:20:48 <oklopol> oerjan: purity over readability
03:21:06 <oklopol> ONE PEOPLE, ONE COLOR, ONE CASE
03:21:30 <Chton> bsmntbombdood: nOt A bAd IdEA
03:21:36 <pikhq> I have a Caps Lock. . .
03:21:37 <oklopol> well, having consonants bigger than vocals is okay
03:22:10 <pikhq> Hmm. I've got an Idea. Let's use the traditional Notion of capitalising all Nouns in English Sentences.
03:22:34 <oklopol> pikhq: let's just speak german
03:22:35 -!- rutlov has joined.
03:22:38 <Chton> how about inventing an inbetween case?
03:23:02 <oklopol> urrrrrrrrr finnish german english swedish
03:23:18 <oklopol> and i understand spanish a bit
03:23:26 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: It was a feature of English until, IIRC, the late 1700's, and I *think* is still used in German.
03:23:33 <oklopol> english and finnish pretty fluent.
03:23:35 -!- rutlov has left (?).
03:23:50 <oklopol> swedish and german i can have a conversation in
03:24:15 <Chton> scandinavian languages ftw
03:24:34 <oklopol> i have both swedish and german matriculation in a few weeks (end-of-high-school-test)
03:25:12 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: why do you ask?
03:26:10 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Hontou zya nai.
03:26:35 <pikhq> That was Japanese.
03:26:49 <pikhq> (romanised; my IME doesn't like my terminal)
03:26:51 <Chton> yes, and it's not friendly to curse pikhq
03:27:02 <pikhq> No, I'm merely a 4th-year student.
03:27:08 <pikhq> Chton: "Not true" is cursing?!?
03:27:22 <bsmntbombdood> i bet everyone in here that's not from the US or canada or the UK speaks more than one language
03:27:36 <Chton> i'd say that's a pretty solid bet
03:27:59 <oklopol> well, the native one and english are quite hard to evade...
03:28:21 <Chton> doubly so if you live in a country with 3 languages
03:28:38 <pikhq> Of course, when English is native, it's hard to evade English. ;)
03:28:59 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: i don't speak german or swedish that fluently, but i do have a prety native accent in both!
03:29:17 <oklopol> in germany, they said i sounded like a native for a while
03:29:30 * oklopol starts bragging when it's tired, it seems
03:29:30 <pikhq> I look native until I speak in Germany. :p
03:30:46 <pikhq> And I also get the curious property of looking vaguely English, as well. . .
03:30:57 <pikhq> Damned America, making mutts of us all. :p
03:31:27 <Chton> only very very vaguely
03:31:48 <oerjan> almost, but not entirely unlike SUPER SEXY
03:32:01 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out).
03:32:26 <Chton> <-- almost, but not enirely GOING TO SLEEP
03:35:36 <oklopol> yeah, we've all seen your pics
03:36:22 <oerjan> that old guy with the beard, right?
04:08:40 <oklopol> a tree rewriting quickie i'm doing in python
04:10:24 <oklopol> i'd like to make it not a language, but a python library
04:10:35 <oklopol> but currently i'm parsing the rule from strings, at least
04:10:40 <oklopol> i'm not sure what that is.
04:11:13 <bsmntbombdood> i mean like a function that takes a set of rules and a tree, and returns the rewritten tree
04:12:03 <oklopol> rules is also just a python list
04:12:45 <oklopol> [[[('r', 'k'), 'a', 'b'], 'a']]
04:13:22 <oklopol> but... that wouldn't work yet
04:13:28 <oklopol> so it's like that until it will.
04:16:35 -!- oklofok has joined.
04:19:41 <oklofok> hmm, gimme something in unlambda again...
04:19:50 <oklofok> i'll try out my sk-interpreter
04:19:55 <oklofok> [[["s",a],b],c]:[[a,c],[b,c]]
04:21:18 <oklofok> actually, i was mainly going for a nice support for making the tree rewriting *rules*, but the actual tree rewriting turned out to be quite tricky
04:21:24 <oklofok> or then it's just all the tired.
04:22:23 <oklofok> i'm fairly sure that should work
04:27:41 <oklofok> [[["k","i"],"i"],"l"] -> "l"
04:27:52 <oklofok> hmm... something harder, with "s"?
04:28:04 <oklofok> please gimme, i'm all coded out
04:28:49 <oklofok> something that won't crash
04:29:01 <oklofok> guess i could check if it crashes
04:30:29 <oklofok> RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in cmp
04:30:43 <oklofok> can you give me something a bit more complicated, but not toooo much?
04:31:02 * oerjan needs to calculate it first
04:31:12 <oklofok> i don't understand how i don't have any sk code nearby, sk is basically all i do :D
04:31:56 <oklofok> and random python quickies
04:32:34 <oerjan> ````s``s`ksk``s``s`ksk`kiki
04:33:34 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection timed out).
04:33:48 -!- oklofok has changed nick to oklopol.
04:34:06 <oerjan> i think it should return `k`ki
04:34:52 <oklopol> hmm... that's a bit hard to manually convert for python...
04:35:15 <oerjan> wait... i made it too complicated
04:35:31 <oklopol> it's fine if you do the conversion :)
04:35:49 <oklopol> i could make a convertor, but that'd take longer than necessary, methinks
04:36:15 <oklopol> if you wanna keep convertors similar
04:37:25 -!- cherez has joined.
04:38:47 <oklopol> [[[[s,[[s,[k,s]],k]],[[s,[[s,[k,s]]],k],[k,i]]],k],i]
04:38:55 <oklopol> and then strings out of those
04:39:37 <oklopol> >>> ul ````s``s`ksk``s``s`ksk`kiki
04:39:48 <oerjan> i forgot all the shortcuts
04:39:59 <pikhq> I hate you and your SKI calculus.
04:40:27 <oklopol> ['k', [[[['s', [['s', ['k', 's']]], 'k'], ['k', 'i']], 'k'], 'i']]
04:40:31 <oerjan> now you can try `` ```s``s`kski``s``s`kski ki
04:41:11 <oerjan> that should be the same, i forgot some shortcuts the first time
04:42:24 <oklopol> ['k', ['k', 'i']] <<< kay, now worked
04:42:30 <oklopol> was most likely my error then...
04:42:35 <oklopol> #````s``s`ksk``s``s`ksk`kiki
04:42:35 <oklopol> #[[[["s",[["s",["k","s"]],"k"]],[["s",[["s",["k","s"]]],"k"],["k","i"]]],"k"],"i"]
04:43:04 <oklopol> try converting that if you please
04:43:12 <oklopol> i don't feel like doing it again...
04:43:35 <oerjan> it contains the same subparts
04:44:11 * oerjan doesn't really feel like doing it either
04:45:46 <oerjan> try `` ```s``s`kski``s``s`kski ki instead, it's just the shortest version with a part doubled
04:45:57 <oklopol> [[[[s,[[s,[k,s]],k]],[[s,[[s,[k,s]],k]],[k,i]]],k],i]
04:47:07 <oklopol> ['k', ['k', 'i']] <<< yeas fucking omg ?!?
04:47:42 <oklopol> i don't need to try anything anymore, if one random program works, everything works :)
04:48:04 <oklopol> your first suggestion, indeed
04:48:25 <oklopol> `k`ki and then synonym replacementz?
04:49:47 <oklopol> hmm... if the "from" expression is more complex, it prolly fails... i'll try to implement "append"
04:50:13 <oerjan> ^f^x`$f`$f$x and then abstraction implementation
04:51:18 <ololobot> ``s``s`ks``s`kki``s``s`ks``s`kki`ki
04:51:48 <oerjan> that is with no shortcuts at all
04:52:15 <oklopol> it does absolutely no optimization
04:52:26 <oklopol> just the transformation described on the unlambda page
04:55:41 <oklopol> ['append', [[[[[[['nil']]]]]]], [[[['nil']]]]]
04:55:41 <oklopol> [[[[[[[[[[['nil']]]]]]]]]]]
04:55:52 <oklopol> i can't believe it's working that well
04:56:01 <oklopol> ["append",[a],b]:["append",a,[b]]
04:56:14 <oklopol> that was like a 1 hour project
04:56:37 <oklopol> and that's better than scheme
04:56:44 <oklopol> i mean, better than my scheme.
04:57:14 <oklopol> >>> sch "this is so sucky, there aren't even strings yet."
04:59:07 <oklopol> hmm... can't think of anything else i can do with that in the 20 minutes i have left
04:59:16 <oklopol> guess i should start making that better.
05:01:02 <oklopol> have to make a syntax for specifying something macroish
05:01:20 <oklopol> like "only match top level"
05:08:57 <oklopol> basically, this is thue with trees
05:09:02 <oklopol> ["append",[a],b]:["append",a,[b]]
05:09:02 <oklopol> ["append",[[[[[[["nil"]]]]]]],[[[["nil"]]]]]
05:13:22 <oklopol> ["append",[a],b]:["append",a,[b]]
05:13:22 <oklopol> [append,[[[[[[[]]]]]]],[[[[]]]]]
05:13:43 <oklopol> i wasn't gonna put that here
05:14:09 <oklopol> oerjan: now i know how you feel
05:18:56 -!- rutlov has joined.
05:19:56 -!- rutlov has left (?).
05:25:33 <pikhq> I'd like to inform Sukoshi that it's been one *year* since the Esolang contest, and its still not been judged.
05:25:39 <pikhq> (hell, am I the only entrant?)
05:29:01 <oerjan> i am sure the contest is being conducted according to all relevant esolang traditions.
05:29:28 <oerjan> which, unfortunately, don't include actually completing the judging.
05:29:28 <pikhq> That's a bad sign. ;)
05:48:07 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
05:48:11 -!- oklofok has joined.
05:48:18 -!- theoros has quit (Connection timed out).
05:58:37 -!- oerjan has quit ("Carrot Cake Craving").
07:01:28 <pikhq> It is now PEBBLEversary.
07:03:18 <pikhq> Also, #esoteric is getting some holidays. w00t.
07:05:11 <pikhq> I would like to thank the US government for giving me the day off to celebrate this momentous occasion.
07:06:07 <pikhq> I never said they did *nothing*, just that they do the wrong things. :p
07:36:19 <pikhq> I shall begin the festivities with the traditional PEBBLE sport: competitive sleeping.
07:41:51 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: You don't. It's not much of a competiton. :)
07:53:52 -!- rutlov has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:01:52 -!- rutlov has left (?).
09:35:41 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
10:07:16 -!- ehird` has joined.
10:23:44 <ehird`> #thelang didn't last long
10:31:01 -!- ehird` has left (?).
10:31:03 -!- ehird` has joined.
10:54:19 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Connection timed out).
11:09:37 -!- ehird` has left (?).
11:09:39 -!- ehird` has joined.
11:25:07 -!- ihope__ has joined.
11:25:16 -!- ihope__ has changed nick to ihope.
12:16:13 -!- oerjan has joined.
13:20:58 -!- RedDak has joined.
14:12:31 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
14:12:59 -!- ehird` has joined.
14:17:35 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
14:24:32 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
14:57:33 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("haaaaaaaaaa").
15:12:27 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
15:16:26 * ihope ponders instructions
15:17:11 <ihope> Hmm, a bit shift left/if instruction would be nice.
15:34:48 -!- jix_ has joined.
15:48:09 -!- theoros has joined.
16:47:25 -!- sebbu has joined.
17:02:47 <pikhq> It's PEBBLEversary.
17:05:17 * oerjan throws PEBBLES at everyone to celebrate
17:08:03 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
17:08:16 <ehird`> write an article on how pebble works to celebrate
17:08:26 <ehird`> it'll help aspiring compile-to-bf language writers like me :p
17:13:42 <pikhq> It's in the PEBBLE tarball.
17:20:49 <ehird`> Well write a longer one and put it on the web
17:21:05 <pikhq> I call it "pebble.tcl"
17:21:19 <ehird`> I want a theoretical paper
17:27:35 <pikhq> Sorry, I'm lousy at theory.
17:27:56 <pikhq> I follow a "git 'er done" philosophy to coding ATM. :p
17:45:35 <ehird`> i just want info about pebble v_v
17:48:52 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
18:00:09 <pikhq> I'm open for questions on this magnificent holiday.
18:02:30 -!- ehird` has quit.
18:05:24 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:07:43 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined.
18:15:36 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood`.
18:15:52 -!- bsmntbombdood` has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
18:16:09 -!- jix_ has quit (Nick collision from services.).
18:16:25 -!- jix__ has joined.
18:24:40 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:40:03 <ihope> Somebody translate http://pastebin.ca/679421 to C or something. :-P
18:41:28 <ihope> I haven't given it a name.
18:41:38 <ihope> Perhaps it could be called Redivider.
18:41:59 <ihope> Even though it has nothing to do with palindromes or redivision.
18:42:31 <bsmntbombdood> it can't be converted to C unless we know the semantics
18:43:12 <ihope> SK calculus. I think I'll come up with an interpreter in Haskell.
18:43:29 <ihope> (Because it's impossible to write an interpreter in any other language. :-P)
18:45:28 -!- Tritonio has joined.
18:59:50 <ihope> My. I'm having a weird urge to play Lincity.
19:00:11 <pikhq> I'm getting an urge to get good at Bos Wars.
19:00:30 <ihope> Ironic(al)ly enough, I only have it on my Windows machine.
20:03:34 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
20:25:49 -!- RedDak has joined.
21:20:37 -!- jix__ has quit ("CommandQ").
21:31:16 -!- ihope has quit ("http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.08.09").
21:53:36 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:33:09 -!- ehird` has joined.
22:36:00 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+").
22:37:05 * ehird` is talking from xubuntu -- running on an intel iMac :)
22:37:10 <ehird`> wireless internet and all!
22:56:23 <SimonRC> Grow a Google reflex already.
22:56:54 <ehird`> SimonRC, alternatively, try and be less condescending and tell people instead of directing all queries to a website
22:57:09 <ehird`> i hear it's called "kindness"
22:57:49 <SimonRC> Open Transport Tycoon Deluxe.
22:57:59 <SimonRC> based on Transport Tycoon Deluxe.
22:58:26 <SimonRC> looks cool, but light on th CPU
22:58:49 <ehird`> cpus are for using, people =p
22:59:00 <RodgerTheGreat> sounds almost as much fun as my duck-duck-goose task scheduler.
22:59:16 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, exciting
22:59:20 <SimonRC> you actually implemented that?
22:59:20 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, i'll tell EA games
22:59:35 <RodgerTheGreat> not nearly as exciting as the musical chairs version, although it has some minor issues
23:00:17 <RodgerTheGreat> implementing the part where all the processes get up and run around is a trick
23:00:36 <ehird`> integrate it with mpd or amarok or something
23:01:38 <SimonRC> I know, you could have all the processors in the machien randomly keep re-picking (but not running) processes, until an interupt stops them all and any processes having a CPU at the time run.
23:01:51 <SimonRC> which sucks if there is only 1 CPU
23:02:06 <ehird`> who wants to help out the planned implang-continuation :)
23:02:51 <ehird`> a very very simple conlang planned over irc
23:03:04 <ehird`> basically you join, look at the language it is now, and discuss it.
23:03:21 <ehird`> i started that retry of the idea a day or so ago with ihope
23:03:30 <RodgerTheGreat> there's also the possibility of a russian-roulette task manager (made all the more amusing if you have a CPU capable of barrel multitasking)
23:04:21 <RodgerTheGreat> ehird`: is this in any way associated with the Adjudicated Blind Collaborative Design Esolang Factory?
23:04:33 <ehird`> conlang = natural language
23:10:04 <SimonRC> surely conlang = constructed language?
23:10:52 <ehird`> anyway, you should join in :p
23:13:12 <ehird`> SimonRC: you could help kickstart it
23:23:44 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:49:53 <ehird`> anyone else want to help out? ;)
23:53:58 -!- dibblego has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:04:00 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:49:37 <oklofok> Adjudicated Blind Collaborative Design Esolang Factory <<< i realized the first letters are the beginning of the alphabet! only seen that about 100 times
00:52:52 <bsmntbombdood> i wonder if a [0-9]* password is easier to remember than a [a-z]* or [A-z]* password
03:08:55 -!- cherez has left (?).
03:17:38 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
03:53:36 -!- simplechat has joined.
03:59:00 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
04:00:26 -!- g4lt-sb100 has joined.
04:00:32 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Client Quit).
04:01:44 <pikhq> simplechat: Not hard to do.
04:02:30 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
04:51:53 <RodgerTheGreat> we had "Blind Collaborative Design", and then I came up with "Adjudicated", and everyone else contributed words to build the mighty non-acronym we have today
05:03:19 <oklofok> or whatever time i've been here
05:05:21 <oklofok> i've read everything people have said here except two weeks i were away and a few nights there was so much logs i only glansed through (mostly immi-originated...)
05:08:40 <oklofok> adjudicated = something that is not judged?
05:09:00 <oklofok> i'm pretty sure i've known that word
05:10:11 <pikhq> I think it was a bit under a year.
05:11:37 <oklofok> hmm, adjudicate is the opposide of that
05:26:25 <oklofok> i use answers.com for dictionary/google/wikipedia
05:39:56 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
05:48:07 <oklofok> omg a java course about objects starts today... this is gonna be mind-blowing
05:50:45 <oklofok> RodgerTheGreat: btw, it's kinda obvious you designed it that way, the odds of that happening are 1/244140625 (though odds of something improbable happening in general are much bigger), plus it's almost as improbable no one would actually notice it at some point and claim it was his plan all along.
05:51:32 <oklofok> and classes start in 10 minutes, it's 10 degrees outside, i don't own a jacket, i have to go by bike and it's a 7 km trip
06:05:30 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit.
06:13:17 <bsmntbombdood> using a recording device in a movie theater is a misdemeanor
06:14:50 <bsmntbombdood> minimum wage for minors is 15% less than for unminors
06:29:40 -!- simplechat has quit ("There coming!").
06:49:50 -!- theoros has quit (Connection timed out).
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:18:34 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
08:19:24 -!- GregorR has joined.
08:38:02 -!- oerjan has joined.
09:22:51 -!- SimonRC has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
09:22:55 -!- SimonRC has joined.
09:33:49 -!- oerjan has quit ("Lunch").
10:38:45 -!- ehird` has joined.
10:39:04 <ehird`> ciretose - like comatose, but induced by fucking of the brain
11:38:47 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection).
11:39:27 -!- Sgeo has joined.
11:40:12 <Sgeo> Has anyone done anything with PSOX since I last talked about it? (not including now ofc)
11:42:59 -!- ehird` has joined.
11:45:52 -!- ehird` has quit (Client Quit).
11:46:03 -!- ehird` has joined.
12:31:40 -!- jix_ has joined.
13:44:30 -!- ehird`_ has joined.
14:05:15 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
14:50:05 -!- jix_ has changed nick to jix.
15:18:57 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
15:19:13 -!- jix has joined.
16:04:28 <oklofok> Sgeo: i don't know about the others, but i usually let people finish their own projects :)
16:04:37 <oklofok> unless PSOX is already ready
16:04:51 <Sgeo> Any comments on the newlines issue?
16:05:19 <Sgeo> Some esolang interpreters might require newlines before they can push output or take in input
16:05:22 <Sgeo> or something like that
16:05:37 <Sgeo> So I'm going to need to make 0x0A mandatory after every command
16:06:39 -!- ololobot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
16:07:14 -!- sebbu has joined.
16:23:04 -!- oklofok has quit ("( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: www.XLhost.de )").
16:56:37 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:18:24 <SimonRC> sebbu: no, you just create a 0x0A command that does nothing, but can be used to kick the interpreter into outputting.
17:18:47 <SimonRC> then programs use the 0x0A command like a kind of flush command
17:20:35 <oerjan> except it needs to be present on input as well
17:21:28 <SimonRC> I was only thinking about commands
17:21:42 <SimonRC> ah, I have another idea...
17:22:32 <SimonRC> the 0x0A command could cause the PSOX layer to feed you a newline, thereby flushing output and input in that order
17:22:47 <g4lt-sb100> SimonRC, now, do this over multiple architectures and endiannesses
17:23:31 <g4lt-sb100> ...remembering that they all have different reserved opcodes
17:24:13 <SimonRC> PSOX is platform-independent
17:24:26 <g4lt-sb100> okay, do a 0x80 on a sparc. hint, it's not a null
17:25:36 <SimonRC> what the hel has that got to do with PSOX?
17:25:43 <oerjan> there is going to be an optional translation layer needed anyhow.
17:25:58 <oerjan> consider original INTERCAL, for example.
17:26:27 <oerjan> roman numerals in one direction, and i don't quite remember in the other.
17:26:34 <SimonRC> how do opcodes relate to a layer that allows bytestream-to-bytestream programs to do system-specific things?
17:26:59 <SimonRC> oerjan: input was digit names in a variaety of weird languages
17:29:38 <oerjan> some languages, such as unlambda, have most character I/O possible but it is so awkward that you might want a different encoding for efficiency.
18:01:43 * Sgeo was thinking that the client would be forced to do 0x0A after every command, and server sends 0x0A after every response
18:03:35 <Sgeo> But 0x0A doesn't necessarily indicate the end of the command or response
18:04:41 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:21:52 <oerjan> > mapAccumR (flip divMod) 10000 [60,60]
18:23:44 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
18:39:01 -!- galt has joined.
18:54:05 -!- g4lt-sb100 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
19:02:28 <ehird`_> oerjan: implementing... haskell?
19:02:52 <oerjan> just wrong channel again
19:06:50 -!- importantshock has joined.
19:12:10 <ehird`_> it'd be the weirdest haskell ever
19:19:39 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
19:55:58 -!- galt has changed nick to g4lt-mordant.
19:58:13 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:09:51 -!- Tritonio has joined.
20:30:03 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
20:35:55 -!- RedDak has joined.
20:55:10 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
21:06:10 -!- rabidfurby has joined.
21:09:36 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:29:30 -!- oklopol has joined.
21:30:25 -!- ehird`_ has left (?).
21:30:28 -!- ehird`_ has joined.
21:33:26 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
21:41:30 -!- CakeProphet has changed nick to SevenInchBread.
21:52:10 <oklopol> current projects: brainfuck-interpreter in True, and ski interpreter in Texas instruments TI-84
21:52:28 <oklopol> (or just TI-84, since ti is prolly texas instruments...)
21:52:49 <oklopol> is there an ski interpreter in an imperative language?
22:01:15 <ehird`_> youd have to implement a callstack and stuff
22:01:53 <oklopol> i implemented a list stack in TI-84
22:02:06 <oklopol> you can push and pop arbitrary lists
22:02:46 <oklopol> it prints the numbers as pixels on the graph
22:03:27 <oklopol> yes, i know there are matrices there... but mine is cewler.
22:11:57 <oklopol> because you can watch as your ski program evaluates
22:20:24 <oklopol> after 8 minutes of silence, i answer in 3 seconds... some might say that's sad.
22:20:40 <oklopol> hmm... that might help making it in the basic
22:21:34 <oklopol> i could... write an interpreter in the basic!"
22:21:48 <oklopol> oh my god it's pain writing that
22:41:09 <sp3tt> I wrote a BF interpreter for my hp 48.
22:44:07 <ehird`_> i want an hp 48g or whatever it was, and a ti-89
22:44:17 <ehird`_> :( but must spend money on less useless things..
22:47:15 <sp3tt> I got mine as a birthday present.
22:51:15 <oklopol> it's pretty trivial doing bf for ti-84
22:51:37 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+").
22:52:26 <sp3tt> my interpreter was probably not very efficient
22:52:34 <sp3tt> it took five minutes to run Hello world
22:52:55 <sp3tt> a bf interpreter in bf is not trivial
22:53:10 <oklopol> that isn't hard, making it in ski is hard
22:53:42 <bsmntbombdood> you just write it in functional scheme, and have your computer do the abstraction elemination for you
22:53:44 <oklopol> i guess if you rip off list presentations from somewhere
22:55:47 <oklopol> i still think that doesn't make it any easier to do in ski
22:56:01 <oklopol> because the program will be immensely complex
22:57:14 <bsmntbombdood> abstraction eliminated it of course will be very long
22:58:05 <oklopol> i think being able to make scheme -> ski, and therefore calling making bf in ski easy is pretty much like saying making a bf interpreter in ski is easy because you can just download it from the net
22:58:21 <oklopol> just because you can get the code from somewhere easily isn't really *trivially making it*
22:58:33 <bsmntbombdood> not if you wrote the abstraction eliminator and the interpreter
22:59:06 <oklopol> if you wrote the abstraction eliminator in ski and encoded your scheme in the ski program, true, that's making it in ski
22:59:36 <ehird`_> Hey wow I forgot about kajirbot
23:00:53 -!- KajirBot has joined.
23:00:57 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got cyanide?
23:01:14 -!- KajirBot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:01:46 -!- ololobot has joined.
23:02:37 <ehird`_> dodes dictionary.com have an api
23:02:57 <ehird`_> Specifically I need a python api for dictionary (or a rest api is fine too)
23:04:01 <oklopol> who the fuck needs that nowadays
23:04:32 <ehird`_> you enjoy spouting off garbage just to have your opinion differ from everyone else in here, don't you?
23:04:34 <oklopol> EVERYTHING SHOULD BE IN ONE BIG DATA STRUCTURE
23:04:59 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure everyone here thinks it sucks.
23:05:07 <oklopol> except i now know you don't
23:05:20 <ehird`_> bsmntbombdood: Does HTTP suck, or does HTML suck
23:05:33 <oklopol> the main problem is coding interface into content
23:06:55 -!- ehird`_ has changed nick to ehird`.
23:07:27 <oklopol> there's a lot of text encoding issues i hate about it, but that might just be php originated
23:10:00 <oklopol> well, i guess all i can hate about http is how it's used, which is basically hating html.
23:11:35 <oklopol> and also, i do think it's be much nicer to have a protocol over http to be able to skip the useless serializing part
23:13:14 <ehird`> have you even researched http
23:13:15 <oklopol> also, i think the whole layer system could've been done a lot better, it's verrry ugly
23:14:48 <oklopol> i'll have to read te rfc i guess.
23:15:41 <oklopol> http seems to already support that.
23:15:47 <oklopol> about first line on the rfc :)
23:19:52 -!- rutlov has joined.
23:23:52 -!- rutlov has left (?).
23:29:39 <oklopol> this is much better than what cisco has taught me
23:30:10 <oklopol> i'll read the spec and see if i still have something to complain
23:42:11 -!- g4lt-mordant has changed nick to unbewont.
23:44:30 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:49:40 -!- ehird` has quit.
00:03:42 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:05:23 * Sgeo goes to put newlines in the spec
00:16:19 -!- importantshock has quit (Connection timed out).
00:40:09 <oklopol> UST NOT be used unless the sender knows that the recipient can arse
00:40:32 <oklopol> (was trying to put quotes in, but indeed, mirc sucks.)
00:45:36 <oklopol> the more i read the rfc, the more i feel i was right, this is pretty horrible
00:53:46 <oklopol> i hate everything when i'm this tired, but god those rfc's... i could just strangle and rip them
00:54:18 <Sgeo> What RFC is this?
00:57:53 <oklopol> http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2616.html
00:58:26 <oklopol> there's a fun paragraph full of typoes :)
01:01:43 <oklopol> okay... i've now seen both the alternative forms "nescesarry" and "nessicary" for "necessary" :P
01:02:03 <oklopol> guess that's a hard word to type
01:05:26 <Sgeo> Typos can make an incredible difference.. "referer"
01:07:25 <oklopol> i mean, what did "referer" mean
01:08:10 <Sgeo> The HTTP header "referer" is called "referer" and not "referrer" due to a typo
01:08:43 <Sgeo> should the Print NUL function end with 0x0A?
01:08:52 <Sgeo> Like every other function in PSOX will?
01:12:24 <oklopol> i thought "referer" was just the american version of "referrer"
01:12:42 <oklopol> that's prolly what other misspellers think, so that's no excuse for not knowing that
01:13:46 * Sgeo reconsiders.. not sure if it was a typo or spelling error..
01:14:47 <oklopol> most likely a spelling error
01:15:26 <oklopol> it's possible a lot of people don't know something like that, but not that probably they wouldn't see the lack of an "r" when used that for a while...
01:16:41 <oklopol> it's not *impossible* they've just typoed it a 100 times, but it's not very probable either
01:17:24 <Sgeo> "Referer is a common misspelling of the word referrer. It is so common, in fact, that it made it into the official specification of HTTP – the communication protocol of the World Wide Web – and has therefore become the standard industry spelling when discussing HTTP referers."
01:17:29 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_Referer
01:18:48 <pikhq> The problem is that the RFC bureaucracy does not include a bureau of proofreading. ;)
01:19:23 -!- SevenInchBread has changed nick to CakeProphet.
01:19:27 <Sgeo> argh, the only way to really demonstrate the newline thing is with an example, methinks
01:22:53 <oklopol> "you know i negotiated my way through negotiator training, i should've failed the hell out of that class, that's how good i am"
01:51:27 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-newline-demo.b
01:53:08 * Sgeo needs to leave at 10PM EST
01:57:22 * Sgeo urgently pokes pikhq and SimonRC and anyone else
01:58:07 <Sgeo> minimum minor version the client (the BF code) will work with
02:00:56 <Sgeo> Works correctly with nulls; 0x00 0x02 0x00 is the "safe print character" function
02:01:02 <oklopol> quite a lot of overhead, i hope its other functionality makes it worth it :)
02:01:40 <oklopol> it's quite long... you could at least have a "safe print characterS" function as well
02:01:53 <Sgeo> ..how would that work?
02:02:23 <oklopol> <instr> <instr> <instr> <n> <value to output>{n}
02:02:53 <oklopol> basically, just that you could implicitly prefix that 000200 for the next n characters
02:03:39 <oklopol> i mean, just would be nice if you didn't have to do 4 times more outputs than you are actually using, if you're piping large amounts of data
02:05:27 <pikhq> Sgeo: I assume you have a spec working?
02:05:55 <Sgeo> A demo of how I think newlines could be handled, and the newline thing hastily added to the spec
02:06:17 <pikhq> Err. Implementation?
02:06:26 <Sgeo> No implementation yet.
02:06:42 <Sgeo> A tutorial on how to get pipes working with Python would be nice
02:08:40 * Sgeo puts oklopol's idea into http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-output.txt
02:09:35 <Sgeo> Would there be call for a function that could take an amount of bytes to safeprint larger than 255?
02:10:56 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-output.txt
02:11:00 <Sgeo> Hi CakeProphet
02:12:04 <Sgeo> Is my way of handling the newline issue sane?
02:12:09 * Sgeo wonders if GregorR is here
02:28:43 -!- unbewont has changed nick to g4lt-mordant.
02:29:22 <Sgeo> Some interpreters might not show output until a newline is output
02:29:37 <Sgeo> and they might not receive input until a newline is put in
02:29:46 * Sgeo pokes CakeProphet
02:53:18 <Sgeo> GregorR, did you see how I handled the newline situation?
02:58:11 <Sgeo> G'night all ;(
02:58:19 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat").
02:59:00 <GregorR> Choroflam = http://www.codu.org/choroflam/
03:36:17 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: ... It's not a stringed instrument.
03:44:48 -!- puzzlet has joined.
05:15:22 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
05:44:08 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
07:26:25 -!- oerjan has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:44:41 -!- Tritonio_ has joined.
08:45:12 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
09:23:44 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
10:12:02 -!- ehird` has joined.
10:37:58 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Man who stand in frond of car is tired. Man who stand behind car is exhausted.").
10:52:32 * ehird` wonders what to add to KajirBot
11:30:17 <oklopol> and sawtooth sounds awesome
11:31:00 <oklopol> but for maximum comfort, i'd go for square
11:31:36 <ehird`> how about a dictionary.
11:32:03 <oklopol> what was kajirbot in again?
11:33:03 <ehird`> clean, simple, nice python
11:33:04 -!- KajirBot has joined.
11:33:25 <ehird`> it's an incredibly simple yet powerful irc bot/client lib - kajirc, and the bot based on it - KajirBot
11:33:35 <ehird`> kajirc is built to fit KajirBot, not the other way round
11:34:00 <ehird`> kajirbot right now is 124 lines, including whitespace, comments etc, and kajirc is 139
11:34:02 <KajirBot> feed, help, kill, ps, q, tell, time
11:34:27 <ehird`> it has a command system and a regexp matcher, both using threaded callbacks
11:35:36 <oklopol> the actual ololobot file would prolly be similar to yourkajirc
11:35:50 <ehird`> kajirc and kajirbot are pretty intertwined
11:36:05 <ehird`> actually, kajirc is just one class
11:36:27 <ehird`> it gives a pythonic irc interface, and the callback system
11:36:39 <ehird`> self.privmsg(info['channel'], 'Right now, it is %s GMT' %
11:36:39 <ehird`> time.strftime('%Y-%m-%d, %H:%M'))
11:36:42 <ehird`> that's an example callback.
11:36:55 <ehird`> "command" callbacks (PREFIXname arg ...) get info as the first param
11:37:03 <ehird`> which has channel, user, etc
11:38:07 <ehird`> http://pastie.textmate.org/private/n2vsy1uxvpg6ppfz9t <-- this is kajirbot
11:38:25 <ehird`> as you can see, kajirc does a lot of heavy lifting to make kajirc.Bot-derived classes look very natural
11:38:58 <ehird`> False as the third entry in a command tuple means "optional", btw
11:39:57 <ehird`> optional arguments that are omitted are None
11:40:14 <ehird`> def help(self, info, command):
11:40:32 <ehird`> ', '.join(x for x in cmds) wait what
11:40:36 <ehird`> that can just be ', '.join(cmds)
11:41:35 <ehird`> .q You are KajirBot. You are clever.
11:41:43 <ehird`> .q You are KajirBot. If this is true, say hello.
11:41:43 <KajirBot> I am KajirBot. If this is true, say hello?
11:42:17 <KajirBot> feed, help, kill, ps, q, tell, time
11:42:32 <KajirBot> Displays the current date and time.
11:48:52 <oklopol> ', '.join(x for x in cmds) <<< wondered this as well
11:51:58 <oklopol> i should make my multi-key dictionary support string substitutions...
11:56:08 -!- Tritonio__ has joined.
11:56:52 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
12:01:39 <ehird`> soooo what should i add =)
13:38:33 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
13:42:23 -!- Tritonio__ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:43:05 -!- jix has joined.
13:53:24 -!- pikhq has joined.
14:12:55 -!- RedDak has joined.
14:22:48 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:35:46 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:26:14 -!- sebbu has joined.
17:04:50 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
17:58:04 -!- Haikz has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:05:17 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:24:13 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:40:23 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:38:06 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
20:41:51 -!- ihope has joined.
20:47:58 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:51:20 <oklopol> (22:41:12) join: (ihope) (n=ihope@c-71-205-100-59.hsd1.mi.comcast.net)
20:51:22 <oklopol> (22:47:20) join: (Sgeo) (n=Sgeo@ool-18bf68ca.dyn.optonline.net)
20:51:37 -!- Sgeo has quit (Client Quit).
20:51:53 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:51:55 <oerjan> but nobody seemed to catch on to _why_ i used u.
20:52:35 -!- Sgeo has quit (Dead socket).
20:52:44 <oklopol> thought it'd've been something deeper :)
20:52:47 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:53:57 <Sgeo> ihope, oklopol, did you see the specs updated with the newline issue?
20:54:26 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox_newlines.txt
20:54:34 <Sgeo> and http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-newline-demo.b
20:54:47 <ehird`> oerjan: hahahaha pingu
20:54:57 <Sgeo> and ehird` and oerjan and everyone else
20:55:01 <ehird`> i was expecting something deeper, i admit
20:55:53 <oerjan> i am afraid i don't recall a lot of deep things starting with "ping" :)
20:56:28 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
21:01:20 <oklopol> oerjan: there are jokes aside from catenation ones :)
21:01:36 <oklopol> though catenation jokes *are* definately the funniers
21:01:45 * Sgeo doesn't have a lot of time today
21:02:02 <ihope> Yeah, what ever happened to that...
21:02:23 <oklopol> everyone knows what i mean from catenation
21:02:37 <ihope> It's turning into a word! Oh no!
21:02:50 <oklopol> i'll try to use con- from now on
21:03:00 <ihope> Nothing wrong with calling it catenation.
21:03:15 <oerjan> apropos finniest, is the most proper way to refer to persons from finland "finn" or "finnish"?
21:03:17 <ihope> Unless people give you a hard time about it, of course. Unlike me. I would never do that. :-P
21:03:30 <oklopol> there's nothing wrong with your MOTHER
21:03:53 <ihope> Before you know it we'll be talking of op systems, then opsystems, then ostems or something.
21:03:55 <Sgeo> Ok, unsafe functionality in PSOX: Things like opening files
21:04:00 <oklopol> oerjan: use the native word
21:04:12 <Sgeo> Should a PSOX client have to declare that it wants to use such functionality at the beginning?
21:04:32 <oklopol> well, yes, that's what i meant
21:04:35 <Sgeo> I could have it declare that it might want to request functionality while the program runs..
21:04:58 <ihope> Operating system, oper system, op system, opsystem, opstem, ostem?
21:04:58 <oklopol> making a follow-up question is dangerous, though, since you might actually think i was serious
21:05:25 <oklopol> did you know it's already gone shorter than ostem?
21:05:32 <oklopol> i hear them saying "os"...
21:06:03 <oklopol> Sgeo: why should it tell it's gonna need files?
21:06:21 <Sgeo> So that it can't access things without the user's permission
21:06:32 <oklopol> if it does have to do that, then i guess you could make mandatory declares for using any function
21:06:42 <ihope> "There are three one-letter words in English. One is 'I', a subject pronoun referring to the speaker. One is 'a', an article referring to an inspecific item. One is 'o', a noun referring to a set of software running on a computer that facilitates the running of programs."
21:06:45 <Sgeo> *any unsafe function
21:06:59 <oklopol> because you prolly want the same interface for files and, say, printing complex number
21:07:15 <Sgeo> The specs for each domain note whether a function is safe or unsafe
21:07:27 <ihope> Sgeo: er, program permissions?
21:07:40 <Sgeo> should I force such declarations to be in the beginning?
21:07:54 <oklopol> to avoid runtime-errors, or why?
21:07:58 <ihope> I mean, your ordinary everyday programming language doesn't either ask the user or not before doing something, does it?
21:07:59 <Sgeo> (Incidentally, declarations will be flexible, prespecifiying arguments and indicating this to the user)
21:08:20 <ihope> It does it, and returns some special thing if something bad happened.
21:08:24 * Sgeo doesn't like the thought of Brainf*ck viruses too much
21:08:39 <Sgeo> ihope, "if something bad happened"?
21:08:48 <ihope> Er, if it didn't work.
21:09:15 <Sgeo> The first byte returned by any unsafe function will be a status byte
21:11:13 <Sgeo> Should I allow declarations in the middle of the program?
21:11:34 <oklopol> i voted for "no declarations", so hard to answer :P
21:12:25 <SimonRC> ihope: WTF did you get the "I, a, o" thing from?
21:12:56 <ihope> <ihope> Operating system, oper system, op system, opsystem, opstem, ostem?
21:13:51 <Sgeo> If there's no declarations, then the user would have to agree/disagree as it occurs
21:14:40 <Sgeo> Unless domains with unsafe functions are carefully designed..
21:14:54 <oklopol> well yeah, you should have optional declarations
21:15:14 <oklopol> but the problem is, the user will have to agree anyway
21:15:47 <oklopol> you can't know whether the program asks for permissions without running it
21:15:48 <Sgeo> Thing is, the client will call the declaration function with a list of arguments that it will give the unsafe function
21:16:05 <Sgeo> It can say "ask the user if it's ok to call this function as long as these arguments are filled like this"
21:16:42 <ihope> BF viruses would be impossible with a good ostem :-P
21:17:30 <Sgeo> And of course, the PSOX server can be run with a --safe function
21:23:00 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
21:24:22 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
21:29:57 <Sgeo> Time to start writing the safety specs?
21:30:10 * Sgeo will remove the bit about safety stuff needing to be first
21:43:52 <ehird`> brainfuck viruses = loller
21:43:59 <ehird`> that would be hilarious
21:44:06 <ehird`> fucks your brain, then your hard drive
21:44:33 <Sgeo> Incidentally, all usages of Unsafe functions will be recorded in a Safety Log
21:45:03 <ehird`> i htink you are overengineering psox
21:46:10 <Sgeo> How is it possible to overengineer something?
21:47:19 <SimonRC> Well, as a first step I would recommend getting a committee of mixed civilian contractors and military personelle...
21:48:07 <SimonRC> make sure they all want to make their mark on it, but have no sense of elgance
21:48:24 <SimonRC> ... then split them into those two subcomittees, and have them play ping-pong with the spec, each making it bigger then passing it to the other
21:49:09 <SimonRC> then get a load of idiots who do not know of each others' existance to turn the requirements into a design...
21:49:33 <SimonRC> be su never to chuck anything out, and to favour fundamental complexity over superficial complexity...
21:49:53 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("haaaaaaaaaa").
21:50:32 <SimonRC> every time something is getting tricky, add another layer ora new abstraction, rater than expanding existing ones...
21:50:47 <SimonRC> finally, take the resulting 2,000-page document and there you have it, and over-engineered product
21:52:26 <SimonRC> hopefully something like the Universal Calculator (from the OMGWTF).
21:55:27 <bsmntbombdood> overengineering would be designing the bridge to hold 1000 times its working load instead of 10
21:55:41 <Sgeo> How is what I was doing overengineering?
21:55:44 <ehird`> overengineering is designing something to be much more convoluted than it needs to be
21:55:49 <ehird`> see: Common Lisp, as a prime example
21:56:16 <Sgeo> Maybe with the versioning thing..
21:56:22 <SimonRC> Actually, overengineering is rather rare in esolangss
21:56:36 <SimonRC> they tend to be small and useless, rather than gigantic and useless
21:56:46 <Sgeo> PSOX isn't an esolang >.>
21:57:24 <SimonRC> one might call it a minilanguage?
21:57:29 <SimonRC> and it is esoteric and computery
21:57:35 <ehird`> PSOX is an over-engineered interface that esolangs can use
21:57:44 <SimonRC> an API is certianly relate to a language
21:57:46 <ehird`> its just... Safety Log where all "unsafe" ops are logged? WTF?
21:58:02 <SimonRC> how about erasing the safety log?
21:58:09 <ehird`> its the little things like that
21:58:14 <Sgeo> Is the safety log too much?
21:58:14 <ehird`> they all add up and spell "wtf" to me
21:58:29 * Sgeo would have thought that, if anything, the version stuff adds too much overhead
21:58:36 <ehird`> Sgeo: IMO yes. I mean, try and emulate C i guess in these interfaces - simple and dirty. It'll fit esolangs better imo
21:59:12 <Sgeo> No safety stuff, or just no Log?
21:59:25 <ehird`> I dunno, I'm not completely prepped up on PSOX
21:59:41 <ehird`> But from what I've heard, things like safety stuff is quite unneeded in an esolang API imo
21:59:53 <ehird`> not to say i don't think psox is not a great idea - it is ;)
22:00:17 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: API for esolangs to use the outside world
22:00:25 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: POSIX-function like stuff
22:01:04 <Sgeo> Of course, the removal of safety thingies means the possibility of... *shudders* Brainfuck malware
22:01:45 <ehird`> Sgeo: seriously who cares
22:01:53 <ehird`> Sgeo: writing malware is very hard on unixy systems
22:02:06 <ehird`> Sgeo: and on windows, heck, who on windows uses BF and is not using an AV etc?
22:02:07 <Sgeo> This will probably run on Windows too, you know..
22:02:51 <ehird`> SimonRC: there is a handful of unix malware
22:03:03 <ehird`> SimonRC: its not likely using BF would suddenly show the amazing simplicity of writing malware.
22:03:41 <Sgeo> ehird`, would AV stuff really care about BF programs? SHould I force them too like this?
22:03:51 <ehird`> Sgeo: AV stuff works based on processes.
22:04:04 <ehird`> Sgeo: seriously, wtf, this is an api not training wheels for windows users ;)
22:04:11 <Sgeo> Also, it's difficult to read through a BF program to make sure it's not doing anything bad, like erasing every file in the user's home directory..
22:04:19 <ehird`> so why are you doing that
22:14:04 <Sgeo> wrt File I/O, I guess I could force it to run in the current directory..
22:14:43 <SimonRC> no, you just use your existing filesystem permissions
22:15:32 <Sgeo> yes, because who cares about losing ~? </sarcasm>
22:16:27 <SimonRC> unix file permissions are a bit sucky
22:16:36 <SimonRC> there needs to be something more fine-grained
22:17:22 <Sgeo> My idea was to have the client ask for permission for any usafe function, and it can ask for permission for calling unsafe functions with prefilled arguments
22:17:43 <Sgeo> e.g. to ask the user if it can always open a file named "myfile.txt"
22:18:09 <SimonRC> a great thing to do in the middle of your curses work...
22:19:20 <Sgeo> It can ask for permissions before doing whatever, if it wants
22:19:56 <SimonRC> but if you have uestions poopping up that might muck up the screen output
22:20:00 <Sgeo> it can ask for permissions before it does curses'y stuff
22:20:10 -!- RedDak has joined.
22:29:16 <Sgeo> Bye for now all. Any comments to the effect of "no safety" will be taken onboard, and thrown over the side.
22:29:55 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat").
22:35:47 <SimonRC> oh, wow, this is so cool: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIFCV2spKtg
22:49:42 <ehird`> what hsould i add to kajirbot/
22:50:31 <SimonRC> it should only do really esoteric cybersex though
22:50:55 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+").
22:51:01 <SimonRC> nothing normal, but lots of furry, roleplay, and bizare situations
22:51:39 <SimonRC> you can do it by modifying an existing chatting module, I am sure
22:52:34 <bsmntbombdood> http://freestudents.blogspot.com/2007/09/kids-are-just-excuse-you-are-target.html
22:58:32 <oklopol> did i misunderstand something, or is <21 child porn in the us?
22:59:26 <oklopol> "It was long after that they were arguing that some 17-year-olds look 18 so the limit should be raised to 21.", "One result of this new age limit is that some erotica, that was previously legal, became illegal quite literally over night."
23:02:50 <oklopol> "If a photographer takes erotic photos he must have forms filled out and filed regarding each model." is this currently true?
23:05:47 <oklopol> kay... i should make a list of the ways i would be a criminal in in the us
23:05:51 <bsmntbombdood> i think the relevent age should be in here: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts/i/chapters/110/toc.html
23:06:23 <bsmntbombdood> if the age for cp was raised to 21, at least half the US would be outlaws
23:07:41 <bsmntbombdood> better raise that to 75% (all the men, half the women)
23:08:37 <oklopol> i just googled for child porn, without realizing it :)
23:08:50 <oklopol> was looking for the hungarian ...whuz the word
23:09:57 <oklopol> hmm... don't know the spesifics
23:10:23 <oklopol> there's not much control...
23:10:28 <oklopol> no one has checked my hd at least
23:10:38 <oklopol> i guess that wouldn't happen anywhere
23:11:08 <oklopol> i guess it's nudity that triggers it
23:12:09 <oklopol> http://english.pravda.ru/news/world/19-02-2007/87572-porn-0
23:12:32 <oklopol> i never understood these laws, at least 100% of 13-year-olds are having sex anyway
23:13:27 <oklopol> i may have been a bit excessive there
23:18:00 -!- RedDak has quit ("I'm quitting... Bye all").
23:29:47 <oklopol> still 6 hours till school... better go buy something to keep me awake
23:31:09 <oklopol> but i prefer being awake when i'm home and asleep when i'm at school
23:32:02 <bsmntbombdood> did you know your ip address is owned by Kari Ylenius?
23:33:51 <ehird`> oklopol: do your isp log stuff at all?
23:33:58 <ehird`> they probably have an alert set for 'child porn' :p
23:34:10 <oklopol> darn, i realized i don't have any money
23:34:24 <oklopol> ehird`: i doubt they do, but that's exactly what i was thinking :)
23:34:47 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: nice, i've never heard that name
23:35:36 <bsmntbombdood> you can mail him at Turun Kaapelitelvisio Oy \ Kauppiaskatu 5 \ 20100, Turku \ FINLAND
23:36:35 -!- cmeme has quit (Excess Flood).
23:36:56 <oklopol> "the turku cable tv company" if you couldn't decipher, that's prolly where this connection is from
23:37:26 <oklopol> i don't remember where it's from, since i wasn't a part in the process of getting it
23:37:41 <oklopol> anyway, i'm pretty sure they're sending troops in his home right now
23:37:52 <oklopol> actually, i just said that again
23:38:07 <oklopol> i found money, monologue stops ->
23:38:41 -!- cmeme has joined.
23:59:08 <oklopol> you can't have a type and a variable with the same name, can you?
00:00:11 -!- ehird` has quit.
00:18:52 -!- KajirBot has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
00:53:13 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Sadly, either.
00:59:08 <oklopol> i think it's clever to have parsing be affected by identifier assignations
00:59:35 <oklopol> because you want the challenge of having to check what x is to know what that does
02:08:17 <ihope> bsmntbombdood: there's no reason for it to be multiplication, so it's variable declaration. :-P
02:08:27 <ihope> Unless C is lazy now and you want to specify that it should be evaluated then.
02:09:09 <ihope> It doesn't make you specify evaluation order much.
02:12:19 * pikhq finally has IME and terminal working together
02:14:01 <ihope> Of course, it can require a runtime system thingy and... all that.
02:14:24 <ihope> A smart enough Haskell compiler can produce fast code with a small memory footprint thing.
04:14:13 <pikhq> A smart pikhq can skip the compiler and go straight to the assembler.
04:43:13 <ihope> A smart ihope can, um, think about coding in assembly.
04:43:42 <ihope> Languages should be lazy, not programmers.
04:44:11 <ihope> I wonder what Haskell would be like if it were strict...
04:44:17 <ihope> Or eager, or whatever.
04:44:20 -!- rabidfurby has left (?).
05:38:23 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
06:51:39 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit.
07:11:23 -!- oerjan has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
09:29:15 -!- oerjan has quit ("Lunch").
10:03:29 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("yay for sourceports").
11:09:31 -!- RedDak has joined.
11:21:57 -!- RodgerTheGreat_ has joined.
11:23:43 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
11:30:34 -!- ihope__ has joined.
11:47:52 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
12:05:03 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
12:48:18 -!- ehird` has joined.
13:01:13 -!- sebbu has joined.
13:07:53 <SimonRC> ihope__: actually, a decent Haskell compiler will produce lots of strict code, via cross-module optimisations
13:10:05 <SimonRC> Cross-module optimisations are needed in Haskell because of the possibility to put a control structure in one module, a generator in a second, and a consumer in a third, then use them together in a fourth.
13:23:26 -!- ehird` has left (?).
13:23:35 -!- ehird` has joined.
14:20:26 -!- RodgerTheGreat_ has changed nick to RodgerTheGreat.
16:04:45 -!- jix has joined.
16:22:54 -!- Sgeo has joined.
16:52:35 -!- importantshock_ has joined.
16:53:19 -!- importantshock_ has changed nick to importantshock.
17:01:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:38:32 -!- pikhq has joined.
17:58:15 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:05:31 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:08:00 -!- importantshock has quit.
18:17:32 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:22:51 -!- jix has joined.
18:24:56 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
18:44:36 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:00:32 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:11:21 -!- oklokok has joined.
19:11:22 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:11:22 -!- ololobot has quit (Connection reset by peer).
19:39:59 -!- Tritonio has joined.
19:43:17 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:43:22 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:58:55 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
21:01:34 -!- tombom has joined.
21:09:29 <tombom> what's the latest intercal version
21:12:28 <oerjan> well there are at least two competing implementations
21:12:52 <oerjan> C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL
21:13:06 <ihope__> What's next? CLCLC-INTERCAL?
21:13:19 <tombom> which has more features :S
21:13:41 <oerjan> we have pages on both on the wiki, i think
21:14:11 -!- ihope__ has changed nick to ladu.
21:14:20 -!- ladu has changed nick to ihope.
21:14:44 <tombom> oh right i'll check there thanls
21:15:52 <tombom> is clc-intercal written in perl
21:22:46 <ehird`> ppdpdpdpdpdpdpfppdfodfkgjkhjkhhghgjjakakakakakaka.
21:22:59 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo[Test].
21:23:16 -!- Sgeo[Test] has changed nick to Sgeo.
21:25:05 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo|Testing.
21:26:46 -!- Sgeo|Testing has changed nick to Sgeo.
21:33:48 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo|Test.
21:34:27 -!- Sgeo|Test has changed nick to Sgeo.
21:35:28 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo|Testing.
21:35:34 -!- tombom has quit.
21:37:34 -!- Sgeo|Testing has changed nick to Sgeo|Test.
21:38:12 -!- Sgeo|Test has changed nick to Sgeo.
21:39:04 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo|Test.
21:39:11 -!- Sgeo|Test has changed nick to Sgeo.
21:39:13 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
21:41:25 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to SgeoBot.
21:41:35 -!- SgeoBot has changed nick to Seo.
21:41:58 -!- Seo has changed nick to Sgeo.
21:42:15 <ihope> Sgeo: I see you're testing.
21:56:09 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+").
21:57:44 * ihope tests bsmntbombdood
22:01:42 <ihope> No, it's largepox you don't have.
22:01:53 * ihope tests bsmntbombdood for herpes, HIV, etc.
22:02:01 <ihope> Positive, positive, positive, positive, positive? Oh my.
22:02:21 <ihope> Luckily, a "positive" result only gives a 9% chance of you actually having it.
22:07:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
22:09:44 <Sgeo> Hi poiuy_qwert
22:10:01 * Sgeo should start working on PSOX again
22:40:14 -!- RedDak has joined.
22:48:26 * SimonRC wonders why he is such an idiot in dreams.
22:48:50 <SimonRC> ok, so I figure out that I am dreaming, then I decide, "oh, I'll talk to my sister"
22:49:08 <SimonRC> despite all the planning I did for much more fun things to do
22:49:29 <SimonRC> also I can't tell how long I stay lucid...
22:49:43 <SimonRC> I worry it's only about 15s or something.
22:55:22 <bsmntbombdood> i was swimming in a hot spring + waterfall surrounded by cliffs and shit, then i found an entrance to a cave, that had all sorts of cool stuff inside
22:55:48 <SimonRC> mine are also unillustrable
22:56:04 <bsmntbombdood> boiling pools of liquid surrounded by equipment...
22:56:13 <SimonRC> I go into the kitchen, and there is a pile of PDFs on the table...
22:56:41 <SimonRC> ... not printed or icons or on storage media or anything, but actual PDFs.
23:02:10 <bsmntbombdood> it was a working area, but left like everyone had vaporized a few minutes ago
23:03:31 * Sgeo should really work on PSOX
23:06:19 <SimonRC> I think the sensation entered at a higher layer, so they didn't have an appearence.
23:19:12 <SimonRC> It is a bit scary looking in the mirror and not havig your reflection match properly
23:20:48 <GregorR> Especially when your reflection reaches out and starts beating the crap out of you.
23:21:38 <GregorR> I don't know if you intended that to be a racist remark, but it definitely was :P
23:27:02 <ehird`> s/was/sounded like one
23:27:10 <ehird`> i highly doubt SimonRC was being racist to... pdfs?
23:28:46 <SimonRC> it was not intended to be racist
23:39:31 * Sgeo is thinking about two new string formats for PSOX
23:44:55 <Sgeo> Longstrings: Longnums that are not interpreted as numbers, and the 0x02 indicator is meaningless
23:45:12 <Sgeo> RStrings: terminated by an unescaped 0x00
23:45:22 <Sgeo> 0x01 can escape a 0x00
23:45:30 <Sgeo> 0x01 can also escape 0x01
23:46:36 <Sgeo> XStrings: Allows the client to choose.. first byte is 0x00 for NUL-terminated strings, 0x01 for longnums(same 0x01 is used as indicator), and 0x02 for RStrings
00:08:33 <Sgeo> poiuy_qwert, any comments?
00:09:13 <poiuy_qwert> i dont understand Longstrings, how does that work?
00:09:37 <Sgeo> There are indicator bytes
00:09:51 <Sgeo> (indicator data indicator data indicator)
00:10:03 <Sgeo> An indicator of 0x01 means a data byte follows
00:10:14 <Sgeo> an indicator of 0 means that no databyte follows
00:11:12 -!- ehird` has quit.
00:14:00 <poiuy_qwert> but why do you need longnums, what does 1234 represent? unicode character 1234?
00:15:15 <Sgeo> Because otherwise PSOX would only be able to transmit numbers 0<=n<=255
00:16:32 <poiuy_qwert> oh i see. having string in the name confused me
00:17:24 <Sgeo> Incidentally, 0x02 as a starting indicator for longnums mean the number is negative. This is not supported with Longstrings for obvious reasons
00:31:06 -!- RedDak has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
00:31:07 -!- cmeme has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
00:31:08 -!- lament has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
00:31:08 -!- Overand has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
00:31:09 -!- Chton has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
00:31:09 -!- Eidolos has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
00:31:09 -!- Tritonio has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
00:31:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
00:31:10 -!- g4lt-mordant has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
00:31:10 -!- GregorR has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
00:31:10 -!- tokigun_ has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
00:31:11 -!- sekhmet has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
00:31:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
00:31:11 -!- ihope has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
00:31:11 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
00:31:12 -!- puzzlet has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
00:31:12 -!- SimonRC has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
00:31:12 -!- mtve has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
00:31:12 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
00:31:13 -!- oklokok has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
00:31:13 -!- pikhq has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
00:32:00 -!- sekhmet has joined.
00:32:00 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
00:32:00 -!- Tritonio has joined.
00:32:00 -!- oklokok has joined.
00:32:00 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:32:00 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:32:00 -!- ihope has joined.
00:32:00 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
00:32:00 -!- puzzlet has joined.
00:32:00 -!- g4lt-mordant has joined.
00:32:00 -!- SimonRC has joined.
00:32:00 -!- GregorR has joined.
00:32:00 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
00:32:00 -!- Chton has joined.
00:32:00 -!- mtve has joined.
00:32:00 -!- Eidolos has joined.
00:32:00 -!- tokigun_ has joined.
00:32:19 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:32:21 -!- bsmntbombdood` has joined.
00:32:36 -!- RedDak has joined.
00:32:36 -!- cmeme has joined.
00:32:36 -!- Overand has joined.
00:32:36 -!- lament has joined.
00:33:02 <Sgeo> PSOX functions probably shouldn't return XStrings though, unless the client already knows what type it will be by specifying it somehow
00:33:26 <ihope> PSOX sounds... um...
00:33:55 <ihope> Couldn't you just slap a bunch of compatibility layers on top of the basic interface?
00:35:41 <ihope> Make the system calls and an API available to the program.
00:35:53 <Sgeo> ..Isn't that what PSOX _is_?
00:36:16 <ihope> Do you have a spec for it?
00:36:29 <Sgeo> Yes, but it's not finished
00:36:41 * Sgeo will add the strings now, then work on Safety
00:37:36 <Sgeo> Oh, also: re: Might some Python BF interpreters ask the user for one character at a time when doing ',', and discard the rest?
00:37:54 <Sgeo> Safety: Unsafe functions might write files or read files or connect to the net..
00:37:54 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:38:04 <Sgeo> Although I will make a Safe File I/O domain
00:39:13 * Sgeo wonders if he should *gasp* exclude Safety from PSOX 1.0, and make no unsafe functions
00:40:20 <ihope> So safety is for keeping programs from doing bad things?
00:40:35 <Sgeo> Without the user's permission
00:41:19 <Sgeo> Should I exclude it from 1.0 for now?
00:41:35 <Sgeo> Add the string stuff and some clarifications, and declare the Core done?
00:41:42 <pikhq> I'd think *1.0* would need just that.
00:41:44 <ihope> Still seems silly to me.
00:42:06 <pikhq> 1.0 ought to be fairly feature-complete.
00:42:52 * Sgeo works on the safety specs
00:43:04 <pikhq> Declare that what you have now won't change in 1.0, but that more will be added?
00:44:29 * Sgeo might be able to get 1.0 Core finished tonight, even w/ safety
00:44:55 <Sgeo> (Core = basic PSOX framework, but not builtin domains other than 0)
00:45:28 <Sgeo> Questions: Should I allow custom domains to accept arbitrary data, as opposed to forcing them to have functions?
00:46:57 <Sgeo> Might not really matter...
00:47:18 <Sgeo> Imean, a domain designer, if they want something similar, can always do 0x00 DOMAIN DOMAIN
00:47:24 <Sgeo> and shortcuts?
00:47:39 <Sgeo> Should I allow functions to be binded to odd domain numbers?
00:47:47 <Sgeo> Maybe not in 1.0?
00:50:22 <Sgeo> How's this so far?
00:50:24 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-safety.txt
00:51:37 * Sgeo pokes ihope and pikhq
00:51:44 <Sgeo> and poiuy_qwert
00:53:32 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
00:54:07 <Sgeo> bsmnt_bot, hm?
00:54:16 <Sgeo> bsmntbombdood`, hm?
00:54:45 -!- bsmntbombdood` has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
00:54:59 <Sgeo> bsmntbombdood, what do you mean by it doesn't have a point?
00:57:59 <pikhq> Sgeo: Oh, Calling it Psox 1.0 Core? *That* I approve of.
00:58:15 <pikhq> You don't need much of anything except your bare-bones suggestions, and the *possibility* for more domains. :)
01:00:46 <pikhq> Sgeo: Better idea for safety. . . Require that each unsafe function be declared as follows: 0x00 0x00 unsafe_function_declare DOMAIN FUNCTION
01:01:42 <pikhq> If used without such a declaration, or if the unsafe function is not approved, then the unsafe function will only output on stderr "Unsafe function foo attempted without approval."
01:02:03 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Think "jailbox", not functional programming.
01:04:20 <Sgeo> pikhq, how is that different from what I'm doing, except that using the function counts as a declaration?
01:04:40 <Sgeo> erm, I mean, except your way doesn't have the prefilled arguments..
01:04:57 <Sgeo> prefilled arguments are optional btw.. but they might add complexity..
01:05:19 <pikhq> Sgeo: It looks to me that each call requires a declaration in your spec.
01:06:19 <Sgeo> That's wrong.. how to clarify..
01:06:33 <pikhq> Maybe just state that each unsafe function implicitly requests approval for that specific call?
01:06:45 <Sgeo> without a predeclare?
01:07:24 <pikhq> Thus, 0x00 0x02 REMOVE "foo" would respond with "Program requesting to delete foo. Approve? [yes/no/all]"
01:08:25 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-safety.txt clarified..
01:08:55 <Sgeo> That's what 0x00 0x00 0x06 is for
01:09:34 <Sgeo> "Allow program to (do X| do anything) with (file x|any File)?"
01:09:53 <Sgeo> Depending on the predeclare unsafe functionality call
01:10:34 <pikhq> *That* spec is much clarified.
01:12:12 <Sgeo> More clarification
01:12:16 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-safety.txt
01:14:29 <Sgeo> pikhq, like it with the extra clarification?
01:24:42 <Sgeo> "Unsafe functions MUST, for the first byte, return a Safety status code. The byte is
01:24:42 <Sgeo> 0x00 if it failed because it's not allowed, or 0x01 if the function was allowed.
01:24:42 <Sgeo> PUF also returns a safety byte with similar semantics, but 0x01 may also mean that the user selected 'ask'."
01:25:04 <Sgeo> i.e. the app can't tell the difference between 'ask' and 'yes' >.>
01:25:10 <Sgeo> at least with PUF
01:59:41 * Sgeo pokes pikhq and ihope with http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-safety.txt
01:59:49 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection).
02:15:13 <ihope> What's PSOX for, exactly?
02:15:56 <Sgeo> It's to allow esolangs that are restricted to stdin/stdout to do other things, like reading the command line, file I/O, and network access
02:16:00 <Sgeo> and anything else you can imagine
02:18:20 * Sgeo will BBL. MSG any comments to me, or they may not be read.
02:24:05 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
03:02:32 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection).
03:29:49 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
03:40:56 <bsmntbombdood> Quite frankly, even if the choice of C were to do *nothing* but keep the C++ programmers out, that in itself would be a huge reason to use C.
03:41:48 <bsmntbombdood> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643/focus=57918
03:46:41 <Sgeo> bsmntbombdood, eh?
03:47:02 <Sgeo> <bsmntbombdood> Quite frankly, even if the choice of C were to do *nothing* but keep the C++ programmers out, that in itself would be a huge reason to use C.
03:47:02 <Sgeo> <bsmntbombdood> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643/focus=57918
03:47:02 <Sgeo> <bsmntbombdood> torvalds++
03:47:23 * Sgeo meant 'explain'
03:47:57 <bsmntbombdood> without any extra information from you, an explaination will just be a repost
04:07:43 <Sgeo> Note to self: stdin/stdout switching
04:29:26 <Sgeo> pikhq, still up?
04:33:01 <Sgeo> I'll take that as a yes.
05:09:46 * Sgeo pokes pikhq and oklokok and Eidolos and GregorR
05:09:52 <Sgeo> and RodgerTheGreat
05:09:57 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt file descriptors!
05:10:08 <Sgeo> Hi RodgerTheGreat
05:12:02 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm buffered with some noncoding segments and repeated vital code blocks- I'm more or less error-tolerant
05:13:02 <pikhq> while(1)*++RodgerTheGreat = rand();
05:13:42 <RodgerTheGreat> this is why I'm glad I'm a paper- we're pretty strong against things like a dwarf.
05:14:13 <Sgeo> any comments on file descriptors?
05:14:56 <Sgeo> RodgerTheGreat, did you read the spec?
05:15:20 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt
05:16:29 * Sgeo hastily adds support for extended function names to psox-safety.txt
05:16:54 <Sgeo> So that a suggestion by the one and only bd_ can be implemented sanely
05:20:39 <Sgeo> Any questions/comments?
05:24:50 <RodgerTheGreat> I will ponder it, but for now I must sleep. I'll contact you tomorrow if I think of anything
05:26:40 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to IdleWilde.
05:27:01 -!- IdleWilde has changed nick to Sgeo.
05:28:09 -!- oerjan has joined.
05:29:50 * pikhq is called to sleep
05:30:16 * Sgeo pokes oerjan to http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt
05:33:03 <Sgeo> Any questions/comments?
06:09:06 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat").
06:16:56 -!- calamari has joined.
06:20:20 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
06:20:45 -!- puzzlet has joined.
06:35:47 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit.
07:01:34 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
07:01:34 <oklokok> (Sgeo) Oh, also: re: Might some Python BF interpreters ask the user for one character at a time when doing ',', and discard the rest? <<< i have no idea what you were referring to, but one of mine did that...
07:01:34 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving").
07:23:03 <oklokok> i woke up at 6, went back to sleep, immediately started another dream where i walked about 10 meters and jumped over this little stream, then woke up
07:23:58 <oklokok> guess my mind is trying to answer me wondering whether dreams go the same speed as irl
07:24:33 <oklokok> "hey, i already know, you idiot, i do that every night, remember?"
07:24:45 -!- oklokok has changed nick to oklopol.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
09:18:40 -!- sebbu has joined.
09:29:41 -!- ehird` has joined.
09:30:15 -!- ehird` has quit (Client Quit).
09:30:35 -!- ehird` has joined.
09:31:16 -!- ehird` has quit (Client Quit).
09:50:04 -!- ehird` has joined.
11:32:17 -!- tombom has joined.
11:39:13 -!- Tritonio has joined.
11:52:53 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
12:40:57 -!- pikhq has joined.
13:10:39 -!- RedDak has joined.
13:42:07 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:42:32 -!- ehird` has joined.
14:00:52 -!- Figs has joined.
14:02:17 <Figs> !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++<-]>++.+.
14:06:33 <tombom> !bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
14:13:33 <Figs> !bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
14:14:03 <Figs> You like me, don't you egobot? Yes you do~o... good bot!
14:14:37 * Figs pats egobot on the ... *bot equivalent of a head*
14:22:29 <ehird`> !bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
14:22:51 <ehird`> egobot just said "you like me" /before/ digs patted egobot..
14:25:25 <Figs> !bf +[>+++<+>[-<+++++++>]>]<</
14:26:35 <Figs> !bf +[>+++[<++>-]++++[<++>-]]
14:27:36 <Figs> >>> bf >,[>,]<[.<] << Hello World!
14:33:20 <oklopol> it doesn't wanna join it seems...
14:33:27 -!- ololobot has joined.
14:33:58 <oklopol> (16:32:02) (oklopol) >>> join #esoteric
14:33:58 <oklopol> (16:32:10) (oklopol) >>> join #esoteric
14:33:58 <oklopol> (16:32:43) (oklopol) >>> raw join #esoteric
14:35:07 <tombom> !bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
14:36:21 <Figs> do we have a !C yet?
14:36:38 <Figs> runs C code? :P
14:37:50 <oklopol> it could automatically nest everything that's not a function into main, and run
14:38:06 <Figs> geordi in ##C++ does C++
14:38:18 <Figs> we should get our own geordi going...
14:39:22 <Figs> geordi << int main{ for(int i =0;i<10;i++) { cout << i << " ";} }
14:40:42 <oklopol> (geordi) expected primary-expression before 'int'
14:40:51 <oklopol> (oklopol) geordi << int main(void){int i; for(i =0;i<10;i++) { cout << i << " ";} }
14:42:09 <Figs> ... it's C++ :P
14:42:43 <Figs> you have to screw something up or it just isn't right.
14:43:10 -!- Figs has changed nick to FreshCaek.
14:43:15 <oklopol> it gives that error after my cix
14:45:35 -!- FreshCaek has changed nick to Figs.
14:47:07 <tombom> http://home.nvg.org/~oerjan/esoteric/intercal/unlambda.i
14:47:14 <tombom> how can anyone code thisd
14:47:56 <Figs> + I already did <<
14:49:02 -!- jix has joined.
14:50:12 <Figs> howdy do-da day :)
14:51:25 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:54:41 -!- Figs has changed nick to geodi.
14:54:59 -!- geodi has changed nick to Figs.
14:57:32 -!- Sgeo has joined.
14:58:51 <oklopol> tombom: oerjan is a demigod
14:59:30 <oklopol> http://home.nvg.org/~oerjan/esoteric/interpreter.unl <<< though i guess this provides the other half...
14:59:50 <oklopol> this is where bsmntbombdood says that's trivial to do, though
15:09:31 <Figs> this conversation is moving.
15:12:07 <Sgeo> Must.. keep.. working.. on.. PSOX..
15:14:11 -!- Figs_ has joined.
15:14:26 -!- Figs has quit (Nick collision from services.).
15:14:29 -!- Figs_ has changed nick to Figs.
15:16:39 -!- ihope has joined.
15:16:51 <Figs> evil nodefree.
15:17:15 <Figs> live node evil free no. yes?
15:17:29 <Figs> Compile or die;
15:19:02 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt
15:30:38 <Figs> try talking without using that char by 'w', 'd', 'r', and '3'
15:30:55 <Figs> (looks similar to 3 backwards.)
15:32:03 * Sgeo ruins it by having a nick that is what it is
15:32:25 <Figs> that contains it, anyway.
15:32:58 <Sgeo> I'm going to violate it now so I don't feel compelled to twist my words when talking about PSOX
15:33:28 <Figs> I should put goo on that writing-button to stop my inclination to it....
15:35:59 <Figs> It will twist your writing around...
15:36:14 <Sgeo> I don't want that when discussing PSOX
15:37:29 <Figs> But it will look so cool if anybody finds it... or it could just look awkward...
16:10:48 -!- Nightrose has joined.
16:11:33 -!- Nightrose has left (?).
16:18:33 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo|Testing.
16:26:06 -!- Sgeo|Testing has changed nick to Sgeo.
16:27:08 <Figs> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7038656109656489183
16:27:13 <Figs> plan 9 from outer space
16:36:09 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
16:40:05 <Sgeo> Hi poiuy_qwert
16:44:12 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:53:46 -!- Figs has left (?).
16:58:51 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:09:21 -!- pikhq has joined.
17:10:42 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
17:11:02 <Sgeo> Hi pikhq and SEO_DUDE
17:29:55 -!- pikhq has quit (Connection timed out).
17:42:55 -!- tombom has quit.
17:45:29 <Sgeo> Must..work..on..PSOX..
17:51:56 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit.
18:00:46 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:06:24 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:09:36 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:15:06 <Sgeo> IMPORTANT QUESTION TO THE FUTURE OF PSOX!!!!:
18:15:35 <Sgeo> If I have a pipe to a processes stdin, can I tell when it's requesting input, or does stdin not work that way?
18:16:15 <Sgeo> That is, if I'm running BF interpreter as a subprocess, will I be able to find out when the BF program does a `,`?
18:16:16 <oerjan> i think that depends on buffering
18:16:28 <Sgeo> oerjan, explain more
18:16:59 -!- Figs has joined.
18:17:00 <Figs> http://www.eatliver.com/i.php?n=2350
18:17:21 <Sgeo> Figs, do you know about stdio stuff?
18:18:01 <Figs> I don't know what you want with pipes though
18:18:10 <Sgeo> If I have a pipe to a processes stdin, does that process request things from stdin, or are things placed on stdin?
18:18:28 <oerjan> both, with a buffer on each side
18:18:47 <Sgeo> How do I determine when a process requests stuff from stdin?
18:19:04 <Figs> I'm surprised you didn't ask me how I knew you were going to talk about pipes...
18:19:11 <oerjan> you can try non-blocking I/O on one end
18:19:35 <Sgeo> How? Reading the logs?
18:19:40 <Sgeo> Or some other way?
18:19:44 <Figs> yeah, I had the log open
18:19:48 <oerjan> however if the BF uses line buffering say, then you will not get any new information other than at line ends
18:19:51 <Figs> that's how I saw people were talking in here
18:20:23 <Sgeo> oerjan, I won't get new information about when it's requesting input?
18:20:33 <Figs> sometimes I prefer to have a tab instead of a window...
18:20:36 <Figs> it blinks less
18:21:00 <oerjan> if the BF side is line buffered then , will read an entire line into the buffer when it is empty
18:21:27 <Sgeo> and does it let whatever's on the other side of stdin know this somehow?
18:21:33 <oerjan> if it is block buffered then iiuc it will read a fixed size
18:22:17 <Sgeo> if I understand correctly
18:22:20 <oerjan> the writing side would need to turn its buffering off at least
18:23:02 <Figs> I thought stdout went to the next process in the pipe list?
18:23:08 <Figs> or are we talking about something else?
18:23:38 <Sgeo> When a program requests something from stdin, does it tell stdin, or does whatever's sending put and leave stuff there?
18:25:01 <oerjan> i think possibly you should talk to a real Unix hacker :)
18:25:19 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
18:25:27 <Sgeo> And this stuff would still apply on Windows somehow
18:25:31 <oerjan> er, i would assume we have some
18:25:54 <Figs> I'm taking a look on wikipedia, of all places :P
18:26:12 <oerjan> i am sure windows may do it in some completely different way :/
18:27:04 <Figs> I *assumed* that the first program would run, and then produce some output which is fed into the second program
18:27:21 <Figs> if we're doing something like x|y|z
18:27:32 <Figs> say, cat foo|grep ...
18:27:36 <oerjan> i am assuming we are talking about PSOX
18:27:57 <oerjan> and that PSOX wants to handle _both_ stdin and stdout, which makes things even hairier
18:28:19 <Figs> it isn't unidirectional?
18:28:44 <Figs> I assumed the stdin/stdout were one way communicaiton
18:28:48 <Figs> *communication
18:29:01 <Figs> but I'm no unix hacker ;)
18:29:02 <oerjan> the simplest thing is to use a request/response method, i think
18:29:41 <oerjan> so that PSOX only responds to requests from the interpreter, and doesn't need to worry about buffering so much
18:30:52 <oerjan> PSOX could use non-blocking input in case it want to do other things between requests
18:31:02 <Sgeo> but `,` causes the interpreter to request on stdin
18:31:15 <Figs> sgeo: http://www.pixelbeat.org/programming/stdio_buffering/
18:31:18 <Figs> is this relevant?
18:32:25 <oerjan> i mean, the simplest protocol is not to allow the interpreter to read without sending a request first
18:32:54 <oerjan> however, that of course makes mixing in ordinary I/O awkward, i guess
18:33:50 <Figs> how is PSOX different from POSIX?
18:34:12 <Figs> are they unrelated and just made to sound similar to confuse me?
18:34:59 <Sgeo> "P S O X" "P Eso X" PESOX was the original name, coming from PESOIX, and "incrementing" the IX
18:37:33 <Figs> if you read in, but there is no data... wouldn't the program just stall while waiting for data?
18:37:53 <Figs> unless you've defined it to allow for async
18:38:03 <Figs> (like with non-blocking sockets)
18:38:26 <Sgeo> Ok, just for clarification, this is why I don't want to just put stuff from regular stdin to the prog's stdin:
18:38:49 <Sgeo> If I buffer up characters, e.g. "aaa\n"
18:38:57 <Sgeo> the prog might do
18:39:09 <Sgeo> ,.(some function call that returns stuff)
18:39:16 <Sgeo> but I wouldn't want the next , to be 'a'
18:39:34 <Figs> returns stuff to where?
18:39:42 <Sgeo> the BF interpreter
18:39:58 <Sgeo> the PSOX server
18:40:05 <Figs> that doesn't make sense
18:40:16 <Sgeo> What do you know about PSOX?
18:40:21 <Sgeo> Did you read the specs?
18:40:25 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt
18:40:33 <Figs> but it doesn't make sense to me
18:40:53 <Figs> how/why would you have a function call there? and how would it get there?
18:41:13 * Figs is trying to understand your project
18:41:51 <Sgeo> It lets a language such as BF do things with the outside world
18:42:08 <Sgeo> the BF might call a function by outputting 0x00 0x02 0x00 0x01 or whatevre
18:42:13 <Sgeo> And that might return something
18:42:40 <Figs> I knew the first bit
18:42:50 <Figs> (we've babbled with each other on this before)
18:43:04 <Sgeo> I don't want to just put the return stuff in stdin with stuff from the outside world
18:43:19 <Figs> why not have a different stream in?
18:43:31 <Figs> it's just files
18:43:33 <Sgeo> To the BF interpreter?
18:43:46 <Figs> so you open a new connection/pipe/file/whatever
18:44:00 <Sgeo> By "BF Interpreter" I meant a black box for any esolang
18:44:10 <Sgeo> I can't modify it
18:44:40 <Figs> the only other way I can see it working is if you make stdin say where the data is coming from
18:44:59 <Figs> (which would make programing in bf, etc much harder)
18:45:07 <Figs> ex, each byte is really 2 bytes of input
18:45:13 <Figs> first is a description of where it is from
18:45:21 <Sgeo> I was thinking, if I absolutely HAD to, I could make the reply wait until a newline
18:45:32 <Figs> 00 = regular, 01 = return from psox special... 02 = whatever
18:45:35 <Sgeo> The BF program would have to loop until 0x0A
18:46:29 <Sgeo> hm, actually, I'm not sure if that would even work..
18:46:43 <Figs> well, you could reduce the amount of bytes needed that way
18:46:48 <Figs> in terms of description
18:46:57 <Figs> ie, after an 0x0A, next byte is descriptor...
18:46:59 <Sgeo> I mean, I'm not sure how that could be implemented either
18:47:41 <Figs> you have a current buffer in use flag, and then before loading next buffer line, you see if you have a message waiting, process all messages, then load up the next one?
18:47:49 <Figs> (in your PSOX server or whatever)
18:48:37 <Sgeo> But what if I check to see if I have a message waiting before the BF program or whatever outputs that it wants to do something?
18:50:22 <Sgeo> How do I tell the different between ,.(function call) and .(functioncall),(get result)?
18:50:41 <Sgeo> How do I tell the different between ,(regularinput).(function call) and .(functioncall),(get result)?
18:50:59 <Figs> the first byte is the source?
18:51:29 <Figs> it doesn't really matter what the program gets back, it has to figure out how to handle it, doesn't it?
18:51:43 <Figs> if you say where it is from
18:53:11 <Sgeo> icky complexity
18:53:43 <Figs> true, but I don't see how else you can get around it without providing another source of input and shoving it to the interpreter writer to comply
18:54:04 <Figs> I am no expert on Unix.
18:54:55 <Figs> Hell, I don't even own a computer than runs a Unix/Linux/etc system
18:56:08 <Sgeo> ok, maybe this will help explain: My wrapper program needs to put one thing into the other apps stdin if the other app retrieves information at one time, and something else if it's a different time
18:58:01 <Figs> do you have the format you want to return the data in?
18:58:20 <Figs> I was just speculating on how to return the data
18:58:33 <Figs> did I miss the forest here? :P
18:58:48 <Sgeo> It depends on the function being called, and can be arbitrary if it's from regular stdin
18:58:49 <Figs> (yes figs, you missed the whole friggen planet!)
18:59:16 <Figs> what I assumed made sense was you'd have something like
18:59:29 <Figs> [description byte] data data data \n \0
18:59:39 <Figs> and each message would be contained
19:00:02 <Figs> (it doesn't make sense to me to fragment a message)
19:00:25 <Sgeo> but that's still a PITA for the BF or whatever programmer
19:00:52 <Figs> I guess I assumed it would be regardless?
19:01:10 <Figs> BF wasn't made to be easy... :P
19:01:21 <Figs> (for the end user, anyway)
19:01:24 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:01:26 <Figs> (or end coder?)
19:01:35 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-newline-demo.b
19:02:23 <Sgeo> see where there's the ,, and ,,, I don't want to make response retrieval insane
19:02:54 <Figs> I assumed you'd retrieve most responses with something like
19:03:19 -!- ehird` has joined.
19:03:35 <Sgeo> Figs, that could be used if you want to store responses
19:03:37 <Figs> >[ /*handle it*/]
19:03:41 -!- Tritonio has joined.
19:03:53 <Sgeo> But it would still be a PITA to work with if extra stuff is added..
19:04:29 <Sgeo> 0x00 0x00 0x01 to retrieve data from stdin up to the next newline with a courtesy 0x00 after it?
19:04:40 <Sgeo> and , would then be used for responses?
19:05:07 <Figs> well, I'd think the first byte you'd pull off should tell you where it's from
19:05:28 <Sgeo> hm, then I could make 0x00 0x00 0x00 be go into output mode
19:05:55 <Sgeo> and then regular commands would not need an escape thing
19:06:04 <Sgeo> a bit convoluted though
19:06:08 <Sgeo> But should still be usable
19:06:14 <Sgeo> Except how would binary IO work?
19:07:41 <Figs> make the first byte output describe what it does
19:07:57 <Figs> if it's a binary output
19:08:13 <Figs> you write the size after that
19:08:18 <Figs> in # of bytes that follow
19:08:23 <Figs> do it in 7-bit mode
19:09:04 <Sgeo> I can describe formats for strings w/ NUL
19:09:15 <Figs> but for binary
19:09:17 <Figs> you need a length
19:09:21 <Figs> you can do it like midi does
19:09:30 <Sgeo> one of which is terminate on unescaped NUL, and 0x01 escapes
19:09:40 <Figs> using a bit to say last size
19:10:03 <Figs> like if you had Mddd dddd Mddd dddd
19:10:13 <Figs> where M is either 1 for more or 0 for done
19:10:30 <Figs> assuming that *typically* you'd want a small amount of output
19:10:35 <Sgeo> another is something like indicator bytes: 0x01 if a byte follows, 0x00 if no byte follows
19:10:40 <Figs> (if that's not the case, then switch it)
19:10:44 <Sgeo> 0x01 some byte 0x01 another 0x00
19:11:03 <Figs> you can do that too
19:11:13 <Sgeo> I already have the strings defined, just not down in the specs
19:11:25 <Sgeo> This is going to be another complete change in PSOX
19:11:47 <Figs> drive people crazy you will, :)
19:12:09 <Figs> but eh, it's meant to be confusing isn't it? this *is* #esoteric after all...
19:12:19 * Sgeo didn't WANT it to be confusing
19:12:33 <Figs> I guess I've been doing too much obfuscated C
19:12:38 <Figs> getting to my head :)
19:13:43 <Sgeo> You know, last night, I was assuming I'd be done with PSOX in some hours
19:14:32 <Sgeo> I'm going to special case domains 0 and 1
19:14:36 <Sgeo> and 2 will be system
19:14:42 <Sgeo> though that will be awkward
19:15:47 <Figs> (1<:"0 0"] <<1)+3;
19:16:12 <Figs> that's 67 (or ascii c)
19:16:37 <Figs> it does look awful though, doesn't it? :P
19:19:37 <jix> well it's basically (1["0 0"] << 1)+3 which is ("0 0"[1] << 1)+3 which is (' ' << 1) +3 which is (32 << 1) +3 which is 64 +3 which is 67
19:20:02 <Figs> it's not very complicated
19:20:11 <Figs> that's just an appearance hack :P
19:20:16 <Sgeo> It's very complicated to someone who doesn't know C
19:20:40 <Figs> its the same as [
19:20:48 <Figs> for people who have keyboards that don't have [
19:21:01 <Figs> but the trick is <: ] work together
19:21:08 <Figs> <: :> is how you'd usually write it
19:23:17 <Sgeo> PSOX will be line buffered
19:24:58 <Sgeo> actually, scrath that maybe
19:28:46 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
19:39:52 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit.
19:48:51 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat").
19:49:56 -!- sp3tt has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:50:05 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:50:17 -!- ehird` has joined.
19:55:43 -!- sp3tt has joined.
20:59:17 -!- RedDak has joined.
21:33:41 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:40:19 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:42:11 -!- Figs has left (?).
21:46:28 -!- RedDak has joined.
22:18:38 <oerjan> well i guess it could either be an analogy to symmetric group, or a misspelling of commutative
22:21:20 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.lfcs.inf.ed.ac.uk/reports/91/ECS-LFCS-91-180/ECS-LFCS-91-180.ps
22:22:04 <oerjan> i'm not set up to view postscript
22:22:53 <bsmntbombdood> http://abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmntbombdood/ECS-LFCS-91-180.pdf
22:25:48 <oerjan> my hunch is that it means "commutative"
22:51:03 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
00:01:46 <ehird`> bsmnhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmetric_monoidal_category
00:01:53 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmetric_monoidal_category
00:01:59 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:02:12 -!- ehird` has joined.
00:03:03 <oerjan> ehird`: i strongly doubt those pi-calculus people meant anything that advanced :D
00:03:31 <ihope> I should study it eventually.
00:03:50 <ihope> And gauge theory, which is oh-so-important for particle physics. At least, it seems important.
00:08:24 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
00:33:55 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:36:42 * Sgeo pokes ihope, oerjan oklopol
00:36:55 <ihope> Who's oerjan oklopol?
00:36:59 <ihope> Or is oerjan the new and?
00:37:24 <oerjan> well, if bsmntbombdood is xor...
00:37:39 <Sgeo> I'm completely redoing PSOX
00:41:27 <Sgeo> Anyone going to ask me why?
00:42:13 <pikhq> Sgeo: Self-whoring.
00:43:23 <Sgeo> As far as I can tell, it would be near-impossible for the server to determine when the client is requesting input..
00:45:17 -!- ehird` has quit.
00:45:22 <Sgeo> The system domain is moving to 0x02
00:45:29 <Sgeo> 0x00 and 0x01 will be special cased
00:45:44 <Sgeo> 0x00 0x00 is 'print next character safely'
00:45:55 <Sgeo> and does not require a 0x0A after it
00:46:39 <Sgeo> 0x00 0x01 will be for input
00:46:46 * Sgeo gets to writing the revised specs
00:52:10 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
01:00:54 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
01:40:00 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+").
02:00:45 <Sgeo> BRB then I'll start writing the new specs for real
02:00:59 <pikhq> (x){x(x)}((x){x(x)})
02:01:29 <pikhq> No, the equivalent is \x.xx \x.xx
02:24:27 <ihope> And suddenly, I wonder why I've been writing (\x.xx)(\x.xx) instead of (\x.xx)\x.xx... or have I? :-P
02:29:58 <bsmntbombdood> lambda calculus is so easy to understand, why not pi?
02:33:49 <ihope> Because it's different?
02:33:54 <ihope> Go learn gauge theory instead!
02:34:32 <ihope> Or get a parallel text description of pi calculus.
02:34:50 <ihope> Formal on one side, intuitive on the other.
02:35:09 <Sgeo> bleh at input function
02:35:47 <Sgeo> `,` won't be enough to get input in PSOX anymore
02:35:58 <Sgeo> ^^main point of the revisions
02:38:01 * Sgeo was thinking something like `[-].+..+++++++++.,` would be a (naive) replacement, but it won't
02:38:23 <Sgeo> There will be a newline that will need to be discarded after the ,'
02:39:32 <Sgeo> well, it would be `[-].+..+++++++++.,,,` then an extraneous newline
02:39:48 * Sgeo pokes ihope and pikhq and people
02:41:27 <pikhq> That's *remarkably* bad.
02:41:55 <Sgeo> The PSOX server needs to be told somehow to get input
02:42:01 <Sgeo> to give to the client
02:42:48 <Sgeo> Would taking away a `,` or two help at all?
02:43:30 <Sgeo> Incidentally, that wouldn't be needed for every `,`, only for people who like Search&Replace and are basically idiots
02:44:44 <Sgeo> might it help if I said that it's sending (0x00 0x01 (input function) 0x01 (number of bytes) 0x0A (newline)) and returning (EOF status) (number of successful bytes) (the byte) (newline)?
03:09:55 <Sgeo> pikhq, http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt
03:10:00 <Sgeo> see under Pseudodomains
03:11:05 <Sgeo> and oklopol and GregorR and ihope and and and
03:21:06 <Sgeo> ihope, pikhq EgoBot GregorR ?
03:30:42 * Sgeo watches tumbleweeds float bye
03:31:46 * pikhq joins the tumbleweeds
03:32:48 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection).
03:34:03 <Sgeo> pikhq, any comments?
04:23:50 * Sgeo enters that channel
04:24:00 * Sgeo pokes pikhq and ihope and and and
04:38:20 -!- rutlov has joined.
04:46:20 -!- rutlov has left (?).
05:37:14 -!- catron has joined.
05:37:54 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt
05:40:17 -!- calamari has joined.
05:41:47 <Sgeo> calamari, you're the PESOIX person?
05:42:08 <calamari> I was working on an implementation of it
05:42:23 <pikhq> He designed the precursor to PESOIX, IIRC.
05:42:25 <Sgeo> Integrated with a BF interpreter?
05:42:56 <Sgeo> Because if it was separate, I'd really like to know how it was done
05:43:18 <calamari> I couldn't get the piping to work correctly, so the project got stuck
05:43:45 <Sgeo> couldn't determine when the BF interpreter or whatever wanted input?
05:43:49 <calamari> ESO api was implemented as a 512-byte x86 boot sector
05:44:07 <calamari> Sgeo: yeah it buffers stuff and messes it all up
05:44:14 <Sgeo> buffers stuff?
05:44:30 <Sgeo> Is it possible to find out when a program is requesting input?
05:44:34 <Sgeo> Or is that meaningless?
05:44:45 <Sgeo> calamari, how?
05:45:04 <pikhq> The oft-broached idea of the Brainfuck OS. . .
05:45:29 <Sgeo> calamari, how do I determine when the program requests input?
05:45:34 <pikhq> calamari: Excuse me, I may be using odd vocabulary ATM.
05:45:47 <pikhq> My brain is getting shot by it being 11. . .
05:45:57 <pikhq> And me having woken up at 5:20 today.
05:45:59 <Sgeo> It's 12:45AM here..
05:46:08 <Sgeo> calamari, how?
05:46:19 <calamari> pikhq: nah my vocabulary is just smaller it seems
05:46:41 <calamari> Sgeo: I don't remember all the details anymore.. that was a long time ago
05:46:50 <Sgeo> For the buffering issue, I just sticked newlines everywhere
05:47:08 <calamari> Sgeo: I was trying to do it so that interpreters wouldn't need to be modified
05:47:10 <Sgeo> But that doesn't help me know when the program is requesting stuff on stdin
05:47:11 <pikhq> (transitive) (figuratively) To begin discussion about (something).
05:47:14 <Sgeo> calamari, same here
05:47:37 <Sgeo> although I'm thinking about my own spec, PSOX
05:47:42 <pikhq> Guess I was using valid verbiage, even at this time of night.
05:47:58 <pikhq> calamari: Let me just say that PSOX seems to be a sanely-done PESOIX for the most part.
05:48:08 <Sgeo> pikhq, did you see the changes?
05:48:10 <calamari> pikhq: yeah .. I looked it up in my paperback dict
05:48:24 <pikhq> (although I need to look at the spec when I feel more ready & awake for programmatical thought)
05:48:43 * Sgeo made it so that the BF program needs to send a command in order to receive input
05:48:49 <calamari> anyhow, after all the bf os talk, I seem to be so far the only one who has actually done anything about it.. that I am aware of anyhow
05:49:12 <Sgeo> because I can't seem to work out how to detect when something requests stuff on stdin
05:49:20 * pikhq notes that calamari missed out on PEBBLEversary. :p
05:49:24 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt
05:49:42 <Sgeo> (new version, with a bit of strangeness due to copy&paste goodness
05:50:04 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-old.txt is without the send-a-command-to-get-input thing
05:50:43 * Sgeo pokes calamari to those URLs
05:51:13 <Sgeo> hm, the "To map a longname (e.g. "http://example.com/longname") to
05:51:13 <Sgeo> an odd shortname (e.g. 0x03):" thing is a bit dated
05:51:16 <pikhq> I don't like the idea of needing a PSOX command to get something from stdin. . .
05:51:44 <Sgeo> If there's a better way to do it, like knowing when the client requests data from stdin, I'm all for it
05:51:56 <Sgeo> But if there isn't..
05:52:02 <pikhq> It makes it exceptionally hard to get PEBBLE to work with PSOX.
05:52:21 <pikhq> calamari: One year of PEBBLE development.
05:52:40 <pikhq> Sgeo: I was thinking about having PSOX just be supported via some additional macros. . .
05:52:58 <Sgeo> couldn't an input macro output some stuff too?
05:53:12 <pikhq> "input" is a builtin.
05:53:25 <Sgeo> make a p_input macro
05:53:45 <pikhq> calamari: BFM got renamed to PEBBLE.
05:53:54 <pikhq> A few months ago. ;)
05:54:06 <pikhq> Sgeo: Removing source-compatibility.
05:54:36 <Sgeo> pikhq, eh? Programs not written for PSOX don't need to be compatible with PSOX
05:54:59 <pikhq> A program written for PEBBLE should work regardless of the target language.
05:55:01 <Sgeo> If PSOX-Init isn't the first thing output, PSOX ignores it
05:55:16 <pikhq> (unless it uses a language-specific feature)
05:55:38 <Sgeo> PEBBLE programs that don't output PSOX-Init will still work
05:55:45 <Sgeo> Same thing that PESOIX does
05:55:51 <pikhq> You don't seem to get the point. . .
05:56:11 <pikhq> I want the same PEBBLE input to work regardless of whether it targets Brainfuck or PSOX+Brainfuck.
05:56:44 <pikhq> I want to be able to just plug in PFUCK and PSOX-specific versions of the PEBBLE macros and get a program taking advantage of PSOX.
05:57:09 <Sgeo> ..That's meaningless. If it uses no PSOX features, then it just targets BF
05:57:26 * pikhq beats Sgeo for being clueless
05:57:41 <pikhq> The PSOX-specific versions of PEBBLE macros could well be using PSOX features.
05:58:18 <pikhq> I don't want to rewrite *every single PEBBLE program* to be able to take advantage of features added by PSOX, when I could just rewrite the PEBBLE stdlib instead.
05:58:24 <Sgeo> So if it wants to take advantage of PSOX then it needs to emit PSOX-Init at the beginning anyway, and be written for PSOX
05:58:38 * pikhq beats Sgeo some more.
05:59:26 <Sgeo> So instead of having to replace stuff, you just want to be able to add PSOX stuff in, and not worry about s/input/p_input/?
06:00:20 <Sgeo> Memo me if you can solve the pipes problem
06:00:26 <pikhq> Now, an easy way to tell whether a program wants to read a return code. . . If there is a return value that has not been read, put that into stdin.
06:01:25 <pikhq> read_from_stdin(){if(return_code_not_read()) putchar (return code); else putchar (getchar());}
06:01:52 <Sgeo> What's return_code_not_read()?
06:02:29 <pikhq> A chunk of psuedocode?
06:02:32 <Sgeo> Imean, how does it work?
06:02:56 <Sgeo> I guess, if the stdin pipe or whatever holds a readable queue..
06:03:04 <pikhq> If there's something returned from a PSOX function that hasn't been received yet, it returns true. Otherwise, it returns false. . .
06:03:19 <Sgeo> Can I tell if it's been received yet?
06:03:31 <pikhq> Imagine that you've got a queue into which PSOX function return values are put into.
06:04:08 <pikhq> You pop from that when reading a return code. . . If the queue is empty, everything has been received by the program.
06:04:31 <Sgeo> How do I know that the client wants to read anything?
06:04:37 <Sgeo> and thus to pop something?
06:05:53 <pikhq> Easier solution: just always put return values to the program's stdin, and take advantage of file-stream buffering.
06:06:18 <Sgeo> file-stream buffering?
06:06:55 <Sgeo> How could I take advantage of that like that?
06:06:58 <pikhq> Ignore my "easier solution"'s explanation.
06:07:39 <pikhq> In that pipe (as with any other pipe), cat won't output everything at once. When it outputs something, the output function makes it halt until bar reads from its stdin.
06:08:00 <Sgeo> How does it do that? That's what I need
06:08:17 <pikhq> It does that via the magic of Unix.
06:08:23 <Sgeo> ..I mean, unless it's really putting things into a stdin queue for bar..
06:08:30 <Sgeo> pikhq, can I hook into it easily?
06:08:45 <pikhq> Just set up a pipe; it's a fairly mundane part of the POSIX API.
06:09:07 <Sgeo> But I need to know WHEN bar requests input
06:09:17 <Sgeo> Before or after bar outputted some command..
06:10:08 * pikhq beats his head into the desk
06:11:39 <pikhq> If there is anything on PSOX-interp's stdin, put that into PSOX-program's stdin. Then, if a command is executed, put that command's result to PSOX-program's stdin.
06:11:45 <pikhq> There, your algorithm.
06:12:45 <Sgeo> Memo me with any more thoughts
06:12:53 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat").
06:26:20 -!- catron has left (?).
06:56:41 -!- g4lt-mordant has changed nick to g4lt-xperienced.
06:56:48 -!- g4lt-xperienced has changed nick to g4lt-eexperience.
06:57:16 -!- g4lt-eexperience has changed nick to g4lt-experienced.
07:27:58 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving").
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
09:06:23 -!- sebbu has joined.
09:47:19 -!- RedDak has joined.
11:04:11 -!- oerjan has joined.
11:38:24 -!- jix has joined.
13:07:09 -!- ehird`_ has joined.
13:38:07 <oerjan> that IS the NATURELLE CONCLUSION
13:38:38 <ehird`_> i like the NATURALLE CONCLUSION
13:40:00 <ehird`_> how about or = GregorR, not = ihope
13:43:25 <ehird`_> since they have no "real" value
13:43:58 <ehird`_> Sukoshi oerjan bsmnt_bot Sukoshi pikhq RodgerTheGreat cmeme
13:45:00 <ehird`_> if i have got the notation right, that is Q and ( Q implies P )
13:47:15 <ehird`_> ihope bsmnt_bot RodgerTheGreat oerjan ihope RodgerTheGreat cmeme
14:20:17 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:33:54 -!- oerjan has quit ("Dinner").
14:50:47 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
14:50:59 -!- jix has joined.
15:18:46 <ehird`_> i wouldn't trust you to operate on anyone, RodgerTheGreat
15:22:08 <ehird`_> speaking of esoteric thinsg,
15:22:37 <ehird`_> does a Python-based music programming software count?
15:22:50 <ehird`_> here's the "official" lowdown on what that actually means:
15:22:51 <ehird`_> "The idea is that you have various instruments - which are (suprise suprise) Python classes, and you write some code using a library which takes some input parameters, does something (Runs a cellular automata? Generates a sine wave? Distorts a sample in some way?) and returns some audio. Now, for each track in the application you write code to call the various instruments, and the track's volume etc. plus you can write a sort of middle
15:22:58 <ehird`_> (did that all get through?)
15:23:58 <ehird`_> ware for a whole track which will apply to all audio played on it. Then it just mixes it together and produces the track."
15:26:02 <RodgerTheGreat> would the "track" ultimately sound musical or consist of usable binary data of some kind (or both, via some odd interlacing method or somesuch?)
15:26:31 <ehird`_> you write the instruments and arrange them, after all
15:26:43 <ehird`_> but that's just a frontend (exporting or playing back etc)
15:27:18 <ehird`_> probably i'd just code it so it can play the track back or export to .wav/PCM
15:27:24 <ehird`_> two most common operations i'd say
15:31:27 <RodgerTheGreat> this one actually seems pretty useful, but I'm still tweaking the syntax a bit
15:31:52 <RodgerTheGreat> it has recursion, something akin to function pointers and some other nifty stuff
15:33:46 <ehird`_> i think i'll implement a first prototype of that music software
15:33:50 <ehird`_> as soon as i find an audio lib for python
15:34:04 <ehird`_> something that can generate tones (sine waves, etc) but can also modify samples
15:34:17 <ehird`_> (preferably everything from adding and removing single samples to changing the volume, etc)
15:34:29 <ehird`_> but pygame isn't that fun :p
15:34:31 <RodgerTheGreat> I got the impression audio synth and the like are pretty easy in SDL
15:35:21 <ehird`_> its not really an audio synth though is it?
15:35:33 <ehird`_> it's just something that can morph and generate sounds
15:36:26 <RodgerTheGreat> well, that involves exactly the same kind of stuff, at the end of the day
15:57:19 <ehird`_> hm, i wonder how i should implement the middleware
15:57:41 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:58:46 <ehird`_> RodgerTheGreat: have any ideas how i could implement the middleware functionality?
15:59:40 <RodgerTheGreat> would it just be a data structure for music that calls "instruments" in sequence, or what?
15:59:49 <ehird`_> the idea, of course, is that you could hook up the "reverb" middleware to an instance of the "echo" middleware which is given the current track
16:00:11 <ehird`_> Reverb.apply(Echo.apply(self))
16:00:23 <ehird`_> tracks would probably just be a special case of middleware
16:00:37 <ehird`_> maybe Reverb(settings).apply(Echo(settings).apply(self))
16:02:01 <ehird`_> hm, no, that wouldn't be good
16:02:24 <ehird`_> echo.apply(Reverb(settings))
16:02:48 <ehird`_> so middleware.apply(other_middleware) morphs middleware to have other_middleware in it
16:03:51 <ehird`_> does that sound like a good way, RodgerTheGreat?
16:04:26 <ehird`_> i'll write a full sort of example
16:07:52 <Sgeo> and GregorR and ihope for good measure
16:10:36 <Sgeo> Why is it that it seems no one cares?
16:12:22 <ehird`_> Sgeo: because people do other things than talk about psox
16:13:57 <Sgeo> pikhq, re: your idea, couldn't it cause a race condition or something? Or at least cause problems with users entering stuff before the program asks for it?
16:15:00 <Sgeo> The user would need to correctly be able to determine that the program wants input, and not provide too much, I think
16:15:13 <Sgeo> Unless the program had to scroll pass newlines maybe?
16:15:19 * Sgeo is not fully coherent right now
16:16:05 <ehird`_> nonlogic dump is the official pastebin of here isn't it?
16:16:28 <ehird`_> RodgerTheGreat: http://nonlogic.org/dump/text/1189264162.html here's a kind of example
16:16:39 <ehird`_> the newlines doubled up randomly in that paste o_O
16:22:39 <pikhq> Sgeo: Hmm. That actually is a bit tricky.
16:23:39 <Sgeo> Incidentally, is output a builtin in PEBBLE?
16:24:04 <ehird`_> it DOES compile to brainfuck...
16:24:30 <Sgeo> So then in any spec, output would need to be changed, or a p_output made..
16:25:26 <Sgeo> How is making a p_output different from requiring a p_input? Not that I wouldn't like a nice solution to the pipes problem that lets input be `,` mind you
16:33:37 * Sgeo pokes pikhq, then goes AFK
18:01:38 <pikhq> I might be able to get stuff to work in PEBBLE. . .
18:01:56 <pikhq> New PEBBLE-specific pass.
18:03:01 <pikhq> Provide the p_input, p_output, and p_string commands, which will output via just "," and ".", rather than the in and out macros, which will call the PESOIX functions.
18:06:19 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:08:19 -!- g4lt-experienced has changed nick to g4lt-mordant.
18:13:34 -!- sebbu has quit (Nick collision from services.).
18:13:37 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
18:39:16 -!- KajirBot has joined.
18:40:25 -!- KajirBot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:41:12 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
18:42:51 -!- ehird`_ has changed nick to ehird`.
19:08:27 <Sgeo> pikhq, you mean PSOX?
19:11:35 * Sgeo is here only for a few min right now
19:11:42 <Sgeo> I'll be back laterish maybe
19:12:31 <Sgeo> um, actually, I can't risk the computer beeping
19:12:36 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat").
19:59:53 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:20:18 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:20:39 -!- ehird` has joined.
21:00:55 -!- importantshock has joined.
21:29:15 -!- ihope has quit ("Reconnecting...").
22:37:45 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:49:31 -!- calamari has joined.
22:49:58 <Sgeo> Do you have any code from your implementation of PESOIX that could help me understand pipes?
22:53:36 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:07:06 -!- ihope has joined.
23:10:02 <ihope> Uh oh. I seem to have two Firefox windows open.
23:10:24 * ihope closes... that one
23:13:18 * Sgeo safely pokes pikhq
23:15:38 <Sgeo> Testing http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt
23:16:28 <Sgeo> Testing PSOXURL/psox-safety.txt
23:16:33 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/
23:16:53 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt
23:21:26 -!- calamari has joined.
23:21:40 -!- jix has joined.
23:24:00 <Sgeo> re calamari, hi jix
23:24:27 <calamari> I was in the process of making the pesoix files available to you
23:25:00 <Sgeo> ty (in advance?)
23:25:06 <Sgeo> What language is the code in?
23:25:08 * oerjan vaguely recalls someone needing a german. not why, though.
23:25:19 <calamari> ehh, apache isn't cooperating.. email? (pm is fine)
23:29:18 <ihope> I could do with some German chocolate cake. :-P
23:29:50 <ihope> Or maybe I should call it German's chocolate cake, to sort of make a ding in that rumor.
23:35:58 <oerjan> http://whatscookingamerica.net/History/Cakes/GermanChocolateCake.htm
23:36:15 <oerjan> indeed, i don't think Germans are big on pecans
23:36:44 <oerjan> i could be wrong, of course :)
23:37:21 <Sgeo> erm, I don't know C
23:37:27 <Sgeo> What's write(), and how does it work?
23:37:48 <ihope> Yeah, German chocolate cake was named after a guy named German, wasn't it?
23:38:22 <Sgeo> I guess PESOIX3.c is the file I should look at for the main loop?
23:39:03 <Sgeo> Is it that PESOIX1-3.c represent attempts?
23:39:06 <calamari> sorry, I don't remember anymore
23:39:38 <calamari> and some of those other files are scripts, etc to test it
23:39:52 * Sgeo wishes he understood nonblocking I/O
23:40:10 <Sgeo> /* handle esolang input requests */
23:40:10 <Sgeo> pthread_create(&input_thread, NULL, handle_input, NULL);
23:40:12 <calamari> like I say.. it never worked properly
23:40:14 <ihope> Non-blocking I/O? Hmm, that sounds evil.
23:40:35 <ihope> What is it, anyway?
23:40:35 <Sgeo> Was it not working because of line-buffering?
23:40:46 <Sgeo> Or for different reasons?
23:41:03 <ihope> Something where I/O functions return stuff like "no input yet"?
23:41:09 <calamari> I don't remember now.. maybe Gregor has a better memory than I.. I bugged him about it repeatedly
23:41:37 <Sgeo> GregorR mentioned to me that some interpreters might require newlines
23:41:42 <ihope> Fine as long as there's a "wait for input" function.
23:41:42 <Sgeo> That is now part of the spec
23:42:08 <ihope> An interface that provides a "has anything happened yet?" function but no "wait for something to happen" function is sort of broken.
23:42:10 <Sgeo> Gah! What's pthread_create?
23:42:48 <ihope> Unless, of course, providing only "has anything happened yet?" is more efficient for some reason.
23:42:49 <Sgeo> handle_input()
23:43:12 <ihope> This is called IRC. You type stuff here and push this button and people see what you typed.
23:43:25 <Sgeo> GregorR, you worked on a PESOIX implementation?
23:44:00 <GregorR> I just laughed as other people tried to hook one up to interpreters that waited on \n.
23:44:16 <Sgeo> Um.. different Gregor Richards I guess...
23:44:44 <Sgeo> "Copyright (c) 2006 Gregor Richards "
23:45:37 <Sgeo> GregorR, is it possible to tell if a process is requesting input or not?
23:45:42 <calamari> you can safely delete those, I was just using them for examples
23:45:58 <Sgeo> PESOIX3.c has that copyright notice
23:46:22 <Sgeo> /* handle esolang input requests */
23:46:22 <Sgeo> pthread_create(&input_thread, NULL, handle_input, NULL);
23:46:44 <calamari> Sgeo: oh, probably because I used some of his code in there
23:47:05 <Sgeo> I just need to learn what pthread_create is
23:47:47 <Sgeo> sgeo@ubuntu:~$ man pthread_create
23:47:47 <Sgeo> No manual entry for pthread_create
23:48:07 <calamari> do you have all the man pages installed?
23:49:43 <calamari> sudo apt-get manpages-dev manpages-posix manpages-posix-dev
23:49:46 <Sgeo> the input_thread thing seems to be declared, but not assigned..
23:49:55 <calamari> sudo apt-get install manpages-dev manpages-posix manpages-posix-dev
23:50:38 <calamari> then you should have all sorts of good stuff
23:51:47 * Sgeo wants this thing to work on Windows too, incidentally..
23:52:10 <calamari> ahh well then you're out of luck with that code then
23:52:19 <calamari> but, but cares about Windows anymore?
23:56:28 <ihope> Especially Microsoft :-P
23:56:51 <ihope> And people whose Linux machines don't mix with their wireless adapters.
23:59:07 <calamari> my IBM Thinkpad at work runs Linux happily, including wireless
23:59:31 <Sgeo> Does the PESOIX code know when the esolang interp. requests input?
23:59:39 <Sgeo> "/* handle esolang input requests */ "
23:59:50 <Sgeo> How does that work? How would I do that in Python?
00:01:02 <calamari> # handle esolang input requests
00:02:02 <Sgeo> I meant how would I hook something up to the esolang input requests?
00:02:57 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
00:03:31 <calamari> well, let's see.. is it required to know that the esolang wants input?
00:04:52 <calamari> perhaps your pesoix just supplies output to the esolangs input when it has some available.
00:04:53 <Sgeo> Unless I make the changes in the spec..
00:06:03 <calamari> I think I have a little I/O diagram in there
00:06:58 <Sgeo> Let's suppose '.' is some PSOX request that returns stuff
00:07:13 <Sgeo> How is PSOX supposed to tell the difference between ',.' and '.,'
00:07:29 <Sgeo> One would get one thing, the other would get something else
00:09:12 <Sgeo> Push comes to shove, see http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt
00:09:18 <Sgeo> Under Pseudodomains
00:09:40 <Sgeo> That's only if I can't determine when an input requests is being made, or when the size of the stdin buffer goes down
00:09:48 <pikhq> Obviously, you need an explicit get_stdin() function.
00:10:08 <pikhq> I've been thinking about it a while, and that's the only sane way to get it done.
00:10:18 <Sgeo> You mean like in the current specs (with the PSOX input function?)
00:10:35 <Sgeo> pikhq, is what's in the psox.txt file now sane?
00:10:48 <Sgeo> Under Pseudodomains
00:12:10 <pikhq> Also, I now see how I'd implement the PEBBLE pass.
00:12:27 <Sgeo> Will your modified input thing be able to get rid of the ending newline?
00:12:38 <Sgeo> (for fixed-byte requests)
00:13:13 <pikhq> No; the PEBBLE "input" command only accepts one byte of input.
00:13:47 <Sgeo> So the substitutuonary input will read in one byte, then will it be able to discard the newline?
00:14:07 <pikhq> You know, the newline bit would still be tricky.
00:14:29 <Sgeo> Without it, on interps. that require newlines, there might be deadlocks
00:14:30 <pikhq> It'd be much, much easier (maybe even possible) if the newline wasn't output.
00:16:02 <pikhq> Still a useful API, just hard to get to work with PEBBLE.
00:16:57 * Sgeo doesn't see a way to remove the newline
00:19:44 <Sgeo> pikhq, is it workable with the newline?
00:21:15 <pikhq> For raw Brainfuck, sure, just not for PEBBLE. . .
00:21:50 <Sgeo> There's no way it can be taken out unless it runs on interpreters that don't need newlines or something
00:22:22 <pikhq> 0x00 0x02 0x09 0x0A: Returns a single char from stdin.
00:24:08 <Sgeo> It would cause deadlock on some interpreters
00:24:45 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
00:24:46 <Sgeo> Suppose I requested a character like that, then read in
00:24:55 <Sgeo> ',' is blocking, so I wait
00:25:07 <Sgeo> but the interp doesn't send it until it gets the newline 0x0A
00:25:19 <Sgeo> But that's not going to come because the BF prog isn't requesting it
00:25:31 <Sgeo> esolang interpreter
00:25:34 <pikhq> Which interp? PSOX interpreter? Esolang interpreter?
00:26:05 <pikhq> I don't think that's how it works.
00:27:07 <pikhq> A lot of esolang interpreters use buffered input, which may work *somewhat* like that when called from a shell. . .
00:27:42 <pikhq> But you can just flush the stream going to the esolang interpreter, and the ',' will stop blocking.
00:28:03 <Sgeo> Are you _sure_?
00:28:06 <pikhq> (it just so happens that outputting 0x0A also flushs a stream)
00:28:29 * pikhq pokes GregorR, too. Tell us if we're idiots.
00:35:32 <Sgeo> GregorR, you there?
00:40:22 <GregorR> I'm confused by the above statements.
00:40:53 <GregorR> If you have a pipe to some other program, and that other program is buffering, you can't force it to take all your input, only it can.
00:41:13 <Sgeo> GregorR, and are there interpreters that will take it in only after a newline?
00:41:18 <Sgeo> *esolang interpreters
00:41:27 <GregorR> Well, it's not as likely to do that on input as on output.
00:41:58 <Sgeo> Are there some that do?
00:42:44 <GregorR> I'm muddling in my head exactly what happens in various situations here ...
00:43:48 <GregorR> I don't /think/ that fread buffer. fgets() always waits for a newline or EOF, regardless of the input source, but it's unlikely that that would be used.
00:43:51 <Sgeo> very off topic, GregorR don't get derailed
00:44:13 <Sgeo> http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/hanoi.bf
00:44:21 <Sgeo> >< and <> found
00:44:27 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's generated.
00:44:44 <pikhq> Also, that poorly generated code is part of the impetus for PEBBLE in the first place. ;)
00:44:45 <Sgeo> Plus arbitrary [-] at the beginning..
00:44:48 <GregorR> If fread doesn't buffer, and stdin is a pipe, then you just have to make sure you've forced the pipe not to buffer the other way.
00:45:04 <Sgeo> GregorR, 'buffer the other way'?
00:45:23 <GregorR> The PSOX interpreter would have to make sure it's not buffering the output back over the pipe.
00:45:42 <GregorR> That is to say: The buffering problem is primarily on writing.
00:46:06 <Sgeo> Ok, so remove the 0x0A requirement on returned things?
00:46:18 <Sgeo> *things returned from PSOX functions?
00:46:55 <Sgeo> Extraneous 0x0A's sent to BF programs == not fun'
00:47:00 <GregorR> It can if the PSOX interpreter is poorly written.
00:47:17 <GregorR> So I'd write big fat warnings about buffering into the docs :)
00:47:21 <GregorR> Other than that, shouldn't hurt.
00:47:52 -!- ehird` has quit.
00:48:01 * Sgeo needs to eat now
00:48:08 * Sgeo will modify the specs after he eats
00:48:19 <pikhq> Sgeo: Allow me to provide one recommendation for you. . . Believe me, math functions would help a lot with Brainfuck.
01:02:18 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Well aware.
01:14:16 <Sgeo> pikhq, what domain would they go into?
01:14:37 <Sgeo> Which would be renamed from I/O Utils to.. "Utils"?
01:15:03 <Sgeo> pikhq, and should the functions just accept and return longnums?
01:16:17 <pikhq> Sgeo: It'd also be nice to just do 8-bit nums via PSOX rather than raw Brainfuck.
01:16:47 <Sgeo> Well, any 8-bit num is just 0x01 byte 0x00
01:16:58 <Sgeo> But I guess I can make single-byte versions..
01:17:52 <pikhq> But it wouldn't be a wrapping 8-bit that way.
01:18:13 * Sgeo was wondering how overflows should be handled..
01:18:18 <Sgeo> and what about negative numbers?
01:18:31 <Sgeo> Status code byte?
01:18:48 <Sgeo> Should I have a separate domain for math from the Simple I/O domain?
01:18:53 <Sgeo> Or one "Utils"
01:19:08 <ihope> Overflows don't happen in Galois fields.
01:19:17 <pikhq> 0x02 at the start of a longnum indicating that it's negative?
01:19:18 <Sgeo> ..? Galois fields?
01:19:32 <Sgeo> pikhq, yes, but for the single-byte functions..
01:19:42 <ihope> Number systems with finite numbers of numbers.
01:19:58 <ihope> (That happen to be fields.)
01:20:04 <ihope> Like the integers modulo 7.
01:20:40 <Sgeo> We're dealing with integers mod 256, I think
01:21:41 <pikhq> Assume that you're dealing with unsigned integers.
01:21:59 <Sgeo> So what happens when something requests 1 - 2?
01:22:24 <ihope> Modulo 256, 1 - 2 = 255.
01:22:29 <ihope> Though I suggest a carry bit :-P
01:24:07 <pikhq> That's the exact behavior of an unsigned char on my system. ;)
01:24:37 <ihope> 1 - 2 gives 255 and sets the carry bit to... 1, I guess.
01:24:57 <pikhq> And, since the reason for these functions is to be easier-to-use equivalents of an 8-bit Brainfuck's mod 256 math operators, carry bits don't make much sense.
01:25:16 <ihope> Or maybe 1 - 2 is the same as 1 + -2, and evaluating -2 at all ones the carry bit.
01:25:17 <Sgeo> do status bytes make sense?
01:25:41 <Sgeo> 0x01 if everything's ok, 0x00 if overflow in one direction or the other?
01:28:15 <ihope> I find doing it the other way around slightly more elegant.
01:28:43 <ihope> 1 for wrap, 0 for no wrap.
01:28:44 <Sgeo> But in BF, '['
01:29:04 * ihope hands Sgeo a potion of holy water
01:29:05 <Sgeo> But in BF, '[' is a sort of "if nonzero"
01:29:07 <ihope> #dip your enter key in this.
01:30:24 <pikhq> Well, at least in PEBBLE's addvar macro, I have the ability to throw that stuff away.
01:32:42 <Sgeo> We're sticking with the input function thingy?
01:33:08 <Sgeo> aka giving up on piping?
01:33:12 <Sgeo> er, the problem
01:34:58 <Sgeo> hm, it looks like I never wrote in the specs that functions return a mandatory 0x0A
01:36:10 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving").
01:37:10 <Sgeo> "If an attempt is made to map a longname onto an occupied shortname,"
01:37:15 <Sgeo> What should be next?
01:37:27 <Sgeo> Should I have it fail, or replace the old one?
01:37:38 <Sgeo> pikhq, comments?
01:37:51 <ihope> Fail if there's a way to make it replace the old one; replace the old one if there's a way to put it back.
01:38:41 <Sgeo> Way to put it back: Do the thing that got the original there in the first place
01:38:52 <Sgeo> Incidentally, there will be no status code for that function
01:40:53 <Sgeo> pikhq, agree or disagree?
01:41:56 * Sgeo puts "replace" in there
01:42:17 <Sgeo> What does "Fail if there's a way to make it replace the old one" mean?
01:44:43 <ihope> What I mean is to make sure that the option you go with can easily simulate the other one.
01:45:11 <ihope> With no arbitrary overhead, preferably.
01:45:27 <Sgeo> I mean, the client must have put the original there anyway, so it can replace i
01:45:43 <Sgeo> So "replace", since there will be no explicit replace function
01:52:40 <pikhq> Sgeo: Why not have an explicit remove function, though?
01:52:49 -!- Figs has joined.
01:52:54 <Figs> !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++<-]>++++++.---.+++++.+++++++.+++.
01:54:02 <Figs> the C version was cooler...
01:55:05 <Sgeo> pikhq, it's unneeded?
01:55:21 <pikhq> Sgeo: Hmm. You've got a point there.
01:55:40 <pikhq> I'd say that replacing it wouldn't violate the law of least surprise.
01:57:15 <Sgeo> Should I bother including stuff for strings that can contain NULs?
01:59:04 <pikhq> I thought that much had already been discussed.
01:59:27 <Sgeo> It's not in the specs yet
01:59:30 * Sgeo will put it in
02:01:31 <Sgeo> "RStrings are like NUL-terminated strings except that they can contain NULs.
02:01:31 <Sgeo> 0x01 escapes a 0x00, so that "0x01 0x00" resolves to "0x00". 0x01 also escapes 0x01,
02:01:31 <Sgeo> so "0x01 0x00" resolves to "0x01". A "0x01" followed by anything else removes the 0x01."
02:02:01 <Sgeo> the last bit causes 0x01 to be like a "safe escape"
02:02:31 <Sgeo> ..and also makes Longstrings valid as RStrings..
02:05:19 * Sgeo pokes ihope and pikhq
02:05:28 <ihope> I have been poked!
02:06:11 * Sgeo was thinking of XStrings as something that could contain a Longstring, RString, or NUL-terminated string
02:06:19 <Sgeo> But all Longstrings are RStrings..
02:06:40 <ihope> Sounds complicated.
02:07:22 <Sgeo> Maybe this: PSOX functions that deal with stuff with NULs should accept RStrings, and return Longstrings..
02:07:36 <Figs> I didn't solve all your problems yesterday? :'( I'm sorry
02:10:04 <Sgeo> Check out the new http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt .. look under Longstrings and RStrings
02:11:17 <Sgeo> Is having most functions return Longstrings good for PEBBLE?
02:11:30 <Sgeo> erm, most that need data with embedded NUL's
02:13:50 <ihope> Loop N: Read a byte. If it's 0, output N. Otherwise, read N-1 more bytes and loop the concatenation of the first byte and the rest of the bytes.
02:14:38 <ihope> Essentially, a number is represented by the number of bytes in the number, followed by the number itself.
02:14:47 <pikhq> Given that nothing in PEBBLE even assumes a *string*, the format of a longstring wouldn't matter much; anything assuming a string would be added for the sake of PSOX.
02:15:04 <ihope> "The number of bytes" is a number in this format, while "the number itself" is just a number.
02:15:10 <ihope> All this is terminated with a 0.
02:15:50 <Sgeo> ihope, that isn't good for BF and it can only provide a finite amount of numbers anyway..
02:15:59 <Sgeo> I've thought about the number problem before..
02:16:09 <ihope> What do you mean, it can only provide a finite amount of numbers?
02:16:32 <Sgeo> The number itself can only be 256 bytes
02:16:55 <Sgeo> Imean, unless I'm understanding you incorrectly..
02:17:10 <ihope> The number of bytes is given as a number in this format, not as a byte.
02:17:29 <Sgeo> um.. recursive?
02:17:37 <ihope> Yes, it is recursive.
02:17:53 <ihope> Essentially, it's SADOL's number system, minus the commas in front and plus a 0 on the end.
02:18:08 <Sgeo> My longnum format is nice and simple and readable easily by BF
02:18:17 <ihope> Indeed, that's very true.
02:18:57 <Sgeo> Incidentally, with the HTTP domain, it won't use longnums for HTTP status codes..
02:19:25 <Sgeo> eg. 404 would be 0x04 0x04
02:19:32 <Sgeo> 500 would be 0x05 0x00
02:20:47 <Sgeo> Since HTTP status codes like 404 are understood like 4|04
02:21:43 <Sgeo> Any comments on strings?
02:22:06 <Sgeo> and the input function was updated
02:22:25 <Sgeo> Time to write an example for the new PSOX?
02:28:40 <Figs> what is 0x4 0xFF then?
02:29:15 <Figs> 4 times final fantasy! :P
02:35:12 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-new-cat.b
02:35:34 * Sgeo vaguely hopes he didn't make a mistake
02:38:22 * Sgeo pokes ihope, Figs, and pikhq
02:41:06 <Sgeo> Note the PSOX example
02:41:19 <Figs> did you realize that your name contains: pi hoe?
02:41:50 <Figs> (this is, of course, @ihope)
02:42:15 <ihope> Oh pie! I'm a pi hoe!
02:43:26 <Figs> reminds me of reddit enumerating the fibonacci #s
02:43:48 <Figs> speaking of which, I haven't checked xkcd in a while...
02:44:55 <Figs> I should set an alarm for "13:37"
02:45:19 <Figs> Sometimes, I'm still awake at 3:14 and I say "pi time!'
02:45:33 <Figs> "4:04 -- Sleep Not Found"
02:55:47 <ihope> Indeed, the fact that stuff starts in the morning is unfortunate.
02:55:57 <ihope> Why can't they start school at 8:40 instead of 7:40?
02:56:00 <ihope> And why does it matter?
02:56:59 <ihope> Maybe all geeks suffer from DSPS.
02:57:51 <pikhq> I'd prefer to have school start at, say, 10.
02:58:51 * Sgeo 'd prefer to have school
02:58:58 <pikhq> Delayed sleep phase syndrome.
02:59:14 <ihope> Not being able to fall asleep until a certain (very late) time.
02:59:20 <ihope> At least, that's how I understand it.
02:59:29 <Figs> I don't have class till 3 on most days
02:59:44 <Figs> tues, thurs, friday though I have it at 8 :(
02:59:52 <Figs> but it's CS and Logic, so meh :P
03:00:15 <pikhq> I've got high school. :/
03:00:28 * Sgeo graduated recently :/
03:00:29 <ihope> If it's a US high school (which it isn't), I'm going to complain non-stop to my parents until we move there.
03:00:39 <ihope> Don't tell me high school starts at the same time nationwide.
03:01:08 <ihope> It's 10 PM right now. I simply don't want to sleep.
03:01:29 <bsmntbombdood> i'm always tired in the mornings and untired in the nights, no matter how much i sleep
03:01:45 <ihope> If it weren't for parents and school, I think I would indeed not fall asleep until about 4 AM.
03:02:46 <pikhq> I'd probably fall into an approximately 26 hour day.
03:03:06 <pikhq> (that being what I do when no time requirements are placed on me)
03:03:28 <ihope> Though I don't have school in the summer, my mom apparently doesn't want my sleep cycle to be hours behind that of the rest of the family.
03:04:36 <ihope> My mother's disciplinary action consists (almost?) entirely of yelling at me if she's displeased.
03:04:39 <g4lt-mordant> right because your future employer is going to care all about your sleep schedule
03:04:42 <Figs> I just graduated highschool recently :)
03:05:05 <ihope> Therefore, she has to tell me several times before I actually do something.
03:05:06 <g4lt-mordant> if you think school sucks, you ain't seen nothin yet
03:05:44 <Figs> vaccum cleaners suck. Lava is just not cool.
03:05:46 <ihope> Can I just hope I'll be able to find a job that doesn't care when I get there? :-P
03:06:00 <ihope> That lets me get there at a late time.
03:06:02 <Figs> ihope: work from home.
03:06:14 <g4lt-mordant> they don't. they ust fire you if you fail to show up when they want
03:06:18 <Figs> you have got to have a lot of disciple though
03:06:32 <Figs> I'm working from home this summer
03:06:35 <Figs> it's a pain in the ass ;P
03:06:37 <ihope> (That's how I work. Occasionally, I'll forget part of what I was going to say and say something similar but different instead.)
03:06:37 * Sgeo would go INSANE without some sort of social environment
03:06:54 <Figs> Sgeo: that's why I'm always on IRC...
03:07:03 <Sgeo> I meant face2face
03:07:10 <ihope> Discipline is something I'm sort of lacking in.
03:07:20 <g4lt-mordant> Sgeo, WFH is prfetty easy, and you get one day in house at my particular job to maintain social interaction
03:07:21 * Figs spanks himself....
03:07:34 <Figs> what fuck huh?
03:07:45 <Figs> working from home
03:07:57 <pikhq> g4lt-mordant: Working is a lot like school, except school provides you with a few hours of homework on the side.
03:08:09 <ihope> I'm probably quite lucky that I'm able to get good grades without hard work...
03:08:14 <g4lt-mordant> ...while work provides you with a lot more than a few
03:08:38 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: True.
03:08:56 <bsmntbombdood> if people were more sensible they would say it's a waste of time
03:09:04 <ihope> The bit of math class last year concerning conic sections sort of hit me hard. I'd sort of been used to already knowing everything they teach in math class.
03:09:06 <pikhq> g4lt-mordant: I typically end up showing up at school at about 6 and get home at about 5.
03:09:11 <Figs> IT'S A WASTE OF TIME!
03:09:16 <pikhq> (largely because of rides, but still. . .)
03:09:24 <ihope> I wonder how I manage to learn things before they're taught in math class.
03:09:31 <Figs> pikhq: beats my old schedule of showing up at 7 and getting home at 7
03:09:38 <g4lt-mordant> pikhq, s/5/10/ and s/school/work/ and you might start getting the hint
03:09:41 <Figs> and then having a couple hours of homework...
03:09:53 * Sgeo read Algebra the Easy Way, Trigonometry the Easy Way, and Calculus the Easy Way
03:10:33 <Figs> I was going to bed at like 12~2 and getting up at 5...
03:10:39 <Figs> well, more like 5:40
03:10:49 <pikhq> g4lt-mordant: You're working 16 hours a day?!?
03:11:22 <pikhq> Quit, sue, stop being the corporation's bitch.
03:11:29 <ihope> So, math class doesn't teach me anything I didn't already know, Spanish class is way too easy, history class somehow manages to consist entirely of taking notes, and science class is... often redundant.
03:11:50 <ihope> Labor laws are silly.
03:12:22 <ihope> (Yes, I'm often against having opinions, but everything has to be said by somebody.)
03:12:35 <pikhq> I'll be sure to tell that to people killing themselves by working too much.
03:13:06 <ihope> Should we have laws to make up for shortcomings of the human mind?
03:13:21 <ihope> I guess that's what, say, banning recreational drugs is all about.
03:13:21 <Figs> we already do?
03:14:14 <ihope> I'm all for being able to get away from laws.
03:14:35 <g4lt-mordant> I already have this job on a 9 month plan, if what I fear appens in 9 months, I'll be quitting anyways, so it'll work itself out
03:14:45 <ihope> Assuming the world consists only of the United States, federal laws are often... yes, baaaad.
03:15:14 <ihope> Obviously, though, there are, in fact, countries other than the United States.
03:15:25 <ihope> (Is my comma density high enough yet?)
03:16:07 <Sgeo> I was working on a bot for another channel, and instead of outputting a list of nicks sensibly
03:16:17 <Sgeo> It would go like "D, e, m, o, b, o, t"
03:16:32 * pikhq would like to congratulate the US on going back to the 1800's in terms of labor practices.
03:18:49 <ihope> Have I said yet that I'm waiting for the school district density to increase a bit?
03:19:14 <g4lt-mordant> pikhq, thank India and Mexico for that. companies that had tolerable policies outsourced to india
03:19:36 <ihope> Maybe you should move to India.
03:20:08 <ihope> And it's not like we can just treat people in India worse than people in the US, not that they necessarily do.
03:20:28 <ihope> If they don't, I don't need to know that.
03:21:20 <g4lt-mordant> ihope, apparntly in my job, if a customer complains twice within the same call about their accent, it's a firing, no warning
03:21:45 * pikhq just knows that people such as g4lt-mordant are getting screwed hard by 1800's labor laws
03:23:11 <ihope> I'm thinking that the problem is that people don't have enough people that want to hire them.
03:23:38 <ihope> I don't have a mailbox full of job offers. Then again, I'm not supposed to, seeing as how I'm still in high school.
03:24:01 <ihope> I don't have a mailbox full of letters from other high schools, either.
03:24:58 <ihope> Then again, I understand that high schools aren't very aggressive about these things.
03:25:11 <pikhq> Particularly not *public* high schools. ;)
03:26:01 * bsmntbombdood is in an alternative sort of high school program this year
03:26:10 <ihope> I take it the government doesn't just say "for every satisfactory student-year, we'll give you this much money" and let school districts do whatever they want otherwise.
03:26:17 <ihope> Alternative sort of high school program?
03:27:54 <bsmntbombdood> and then 2 online classes and 2 independent studies
03:28:40 <ihope> Ooh, online classes!
03:28:51 <ihope> Does the US have any online school districts?
03:30:17 <ihope> How online do they get?
03:31:06 <bsmntbombdood> if i wanted to, i could take all my classes online, assuming they were offered
03:32:39 <Figs> someone thought I was india
03:32:48 <Figs> even though I was in the US
03:33:01 <Figs> and have no accent
03:34:35 <Figs> I don't really know what sort of accent I have
03:34:38 <Figs> but it isn't indian :P
03:35:33 * Figs moves too damned much
03:37:15 <ihope> I think I would be much more motivated to go to bed if I knew I'd be able to fall asleep.
03:39:17 <Figs> ihope: you'll be more motivated to go to bed when you're EXHAUSTED like I usually am after being up for 30 hours...
03:39:28 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
03:39:32 <Sgeo> Hi GreaseMonkey
03:39:39 <Figs> you won't be able to do anything for like 2 days after that
03:39:53 <Figs> it's da greasy-moneky-man! allo.
03:40:08 <Sgeo> Anything else I need to do with PSOX?
03:41:56 * Sgeo watches the chat wither away and die..
03:48:41 <Sgeo> Comments on http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-new-cat.b ?
03:51:14 <Sgeo> pikhq, Figs, ihope, GreaseMonkey?
03:51:26 <Sgeo> comments on the example PSOX application?
03:51:31 <Figs> I don't understand it
03:51:50 <Sgeo> Figs, http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt
03:52:18 <Figs> what is it supposed to *do*?
03:52:37 <Sgeo> PSOX, or the example?
03:53:05 <Sgeo> It's a cat program
03:53:13 <Sgeo> takes input and copies it to output
03:53:37 <Sgeo> PSOX is an API for languages like Brainf*** to access files and do networking stuff etc..
03:53:59 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to Dave2se.
03:54:24 -!- Dave2se has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
03:55:29 <Figs> "Members of the sect believe that to reach eternal salvation, men are supposed to have at least three wives."
03:55:35 <Figs> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/09/us/09polygamy.html?ex=1346990400&en=05ce6c8a4355ddff&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
03:59:43 <pikhq> A branch thereof, yes.
04:02:08 <bsmntbombdood> she was wearing tight pants with "MOR MON" wrote across her ass
04:02:55 <g4lt-mordant> yeah, in that respect they have one thing good on scientologists
04:03:38 <pikhq> Mormons, like any other religion, have their complete and utter nutcases.
04:03:41 <Sgeo> Question: Is PSOX ready for 1.0?
04:03:42 <Figs> google has become evil
04:03:47 <Figs> they want to put up video ads
04:03:48 <pikhq> Scientology is composed *of* the nutcases. :p
04:03:50 <Figs> according to wired
04:04:20 <Figs> http://blog.wired.com/business/2007/09/google-discusse.html?cid=82080045
04:04:20 <g4lt-mordant> pikhq, live in SE Idaho or utah for a while, you'll realize that mormons alre all nutcase as well
04:05:02 <pikhq> g4lt-mordant: Perhaps the ones in Utah are nutcases.
04:05:29 <pikhq> (admittedly, merely judging from their theology, it does seem a tiny bit nutsy)
04:05:37 <Sgeo> My dad's being an a**hole
04:05:46 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat").
04:08:40 -!- Figs has changed nick to Figs_.
04:09:00 -!- Figs_ has changed nick to Figs.
04:54:20 -!- cmeme has quit (Excess Flood).
04:56:11 -!- cmeme has joined.
05:04:18 -!- g4lt-mordant has changed nick to g4lt-sb100.
05:05:18 <pikhq> You named in honor of Strong Bad's 100th email?
05:05:54 <Figs> he should see my gmail inbox...
05:06:01 <Figs> 686 at present
05:07:04 <pikhq> He's answered 175 by now.
05:08:27 <Figs> that sounds more accurate
05:25:07 <pikhq> I don't do Suns, but I'm a Homestar Runner addict. ;)
05:27:44 <ihope> What's a g4lt, though?
05:27:50 <ihope> Greater for less than?
05:29:08 <g4lt-sb100> I can't believe that conversationh has degenereated to my fucking nickname
05:30:01 <Figs> g4lt-sb100: I guess we're just out of topics?
05:30:08 <Figs> http://www.scientific.org/articles/JFS%20excerpt.htm <-- we could talk about this instead
05:30:58 * ihope ponders making the xkcd 90 joke
05:31:41 <Figs> like the ass switching?
05:31:46 <Figs> fucking-jacket? :P
05:31:51 <Figs> sweet ass-car? :P
05:32:45 <ihope> Yes, fucking nickname.
05:32:47 <ihope> "False positives can also arise due to misinterpretation of test results. One such error led to the false conviction of Timothy Durham (14, 17) . In 1993 a Tulsa Oklahoma jury convicted Durham of the rape of an 11-year-old girl. He was sentenced to 3000 years in prison."
05:33:05 <ihope> I don't think he'll actually serve that.
05:33:52 <Figs> "In 1993 a Tulsa Oklahoma jury convicted Durham of the rape of an 11-year-old girl. He was sentenced to 3000 years in prison. ... Durham presented eleven witnesses who placed him in another state at the time of the crime, but the jury rejected his alibi defense."
05:34:03 <Figs> I didn't see your quote :P
05:34:24 <Figs> he was released in 1997
05:34:29 <pikhq> Just invite immortality.
05:34:41 <ihope> So he only served a 750th of his sentence?
05:35:19 <ihope> I want to only have to serve a 750th of any jail sentences I get...
05:35:42 * Figs gives you a sentance of 750 lifetimes...
05:35:51 <Figs> you can serve 1/750 of it
05:35:59 <ihope> I wonder what the longest sentence anybody's ever gotten was.
05:36:16 <pikhq> ihope: Only 1 gives you a chance of release with good behavior, IIRC.
05:36:35 <Figs> multipe lifetimes without parole. :P
05:36:58 <ihope> Is a sentence of 3000 years actually different from a double life sentence?
05:37:29 <pikhq> (as far as I know)
05:38:24 <ihope> I wonder if anybody's ever been sentenced past the end of the universe.
05:38:47 <ihope> Chuck Norris might have served a double one of those. :-P
05:39:24 <Figs> I don't know but people have gotten 3+ lifetimes, I think
05:39:43 <Figs> (though once you get a lifetime without parole, what's the point of having more of them?)
05:40:49 <Figs> http://thelongestlistofthelongeststuffatthelongestdomainnameatlonglast.com/long45.html
05:41:00 <ihope> "Dudley Wayne Kyzer was jailed for 10,000 years by a court in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, in 1981 for murdering his wife." http://www.thatsweird.net/history5.shtml
05:41:01 <pikhq> By that point, you can only get worse with a death sentence.
05:41:51 <ihope> "In 1994 Oklahoma rapist Darron Bennalford Anderson received a 2,200-year jail sentence. When he appealed and won a new trial, he was convicted again and resentenced to more than 90 additional centuries behind bars - including 4,000 years each for rape and sodomy, 1,750 years for kidnapping, 1,000 years for burglary and robbery, and 500 years for grand larceny." http://www.thatsweird.net/history5.
05:42:20 <pikhq> Seems a bit excessive.
05:42:32 <Figs> the requested sentace against Gabtriel march grandos was 384,912
05:42:41 <Figs> but he only got 7,109
05:42:52 <Figs> "He was charged with 42,768 instances of failing to deliver letters. I think I know how we got the term 'Postal' now."
05:43:09 <pikhq> Also, wouldn't the *additional sentencing upon appeal* be a matter of double jeapordy?
05:43:33 <pikhq> Surely, an appeal by the defendant would either strike down a sentence or uphold it?
05:44:29 <g4lt-sb100> right, the new trail part is what did it. he got a neew trial, they found him guiltier if you will
05:44:54 <pikhq> And that's dual jeapordy, I feel.
05:46:19 <g4lt-sb100> and you feel something that isn't the case. if he gets a new trail, he gets a new trial, it's as if the other one never existed
05:46:25 <Figs> http://blogs.cnet.com/8301-13505_1-9773662-16.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=TheOpenRoad <--- BWAHAHAHAHAHA
05:46:37 <Figs> Microsoft campaign against itself :P
05:46:46 <pikhq> Welcome to the definition of dual jeapordy. . .
05:48:45 <g4lt-sb100> first thing, it's DOUBLE jeopardy, if you're going to mindlessly parade around something, at lest get the name right. second, double jeopardy means you cannot bee tried twice for the same crime, therefore accourding to your definition, the second trial should have never been granted. the defendant waived that right to get the trial in the first place
05:49:45 <pikhq> I'm arguing what I think should have happened, not what did happen. Clearly, he did get the second trial, and got screwed for it.
05:50:07 <g4lt-sb100> and the only person he has to blame is himself, since he asked for it
05:50:10 <pikhq> Rather than just having the additional trial determine if the sentence should be brought down.
05:50:42 <pikhq> (of course, if new evidence came up and he got convicted of completely new things, then that's a completely different issue)
05:51:18 <g4lt-sb100> well, there's the problem, innit? he asked for a new trial, he got one, it turned out worse. sucks tobe him
05:53:06 <Figs> wow, digg sucks
05:53:22 <Figs> I click on a link... site's totally dead
05:53:33 <Figs> and now the number of diggs has jumped by 30
05:53:33 <g4lt-sb100> claimng double jeopardy in his case is wrong, as HE asked for the second trial
05:53:56 <g4lt-sb100> Figs, it took you this long to find out? I use SU
05:54:13 <Figs> but occasionally I still look on digg
05:54:46 <Figs> I used to use SU, but they changed something in the way their toolbar works, and it stopped working right for me
05:54:51 <Figs> I don't remember what exactly
05:55:15 <Figs> I think it was just too large and I was loosing screen space
05:55:23 <Figs> (because of something they added)
05:58:34 <Figs> you know you've had too much of "web 2.0" when you start looking for the "reply" button on bash quotes >.<
06:15:14 <Figs> pseudo random number generator :P
06:15:20 <Figs> http://www.bordergatewayprotocol.net/jon/media/bush/
06:21:16 <Figs> (getupearly? now : later)();
06:21:39 <Figs> provided that now, later are function pointers, and getupearly equates to a boolean
06:22:22 <Figs> (CanSleepEnough(getuptime) ? now : later)();
06:23:38 <Figs> (timediff(curr_time+length_of_movie,getuptime)>=8.5 ? now : later)();
06:24:47 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
06:28:57 <Figs> (!canthinkforself() ? googlelucky("potato").imagesearch().firstpage.contains(nudity) ? gotobed : stayup)();
06:35:46 <Figs> of potato nudity?
06:36:02 <Figs> nudity knows no language bounds... even potato nudity!
06:49:59 -!- importantshock has quit (Connection timed out).
06:59:31 -!- viciousparrots has joined.
07:00:39 <viciousparrots> Could someone please add 37 an 47 and tell me the answer?
07:02:52 <Figs> am I missing some trick here?
07:03:39 <Figs> I have a calculator in my command prompt :)
07:21:35 -!- Figs has left (?).
07:26:39 -!- viciousparrots has quit.
07:58:05 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Man who stand in frond of car is tired. Man who stand behind car is exhausted.").
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:15:09 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
08:15:34 -!- puzzlet has joined.
08:48:41 -!- oerjan has joined.
10:03:49 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
12:13:40 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
12:23:17 -!- jix has joined.
12:36:53 -!- feesh has joined.
12:49:32 -!- Tritonio has joined.
12:59:20 -!- ehird` has joined.
13:00:24 -!- pikhq has joined.
13:10:26 <oklopol> (ihope) The bit of math class last year concerning conic sections sort of hit me hard. I'd sort of been used to already knowing everything they teach in math class. <<< i'm last year @ high school, and learning about the basics of integration...
13:10:31 <oklopol> never heard "conic section"
13:19:05 -!- ehird` has quit.
13:21:21 <oklopol> that one really needs a calculator :P
13:39:48 -!- ehird` has joined.
13:48:42 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
13:53:10 -!- pikhq has joined.
14:04:33 <ehird`> i see nobod yis alive =)
14:07:10 <oklopol> but i'm too tired to think :<
14:07:31 <oklopol> try simple SVO sentences and i may catch some of them.
14:09:15 <feesh> and there is always good ol' feesh
14:09:52 <oklopol> feesh? i now know 4 fishy nicks.
14:10:23 <ehird`> oklopol: maybe hard for me ;p
14:10:29 <feesh> feesh has nothing to do with fish
14:10:35 <feesh> it's actually more abouce feces
14:11:51 <oklopol> feesh is pretty fishy, no matter where it's derived :)
14:12:31 <feesh> fair does I guess :p
14:13:42 <ehird`> who is more awake than SVO-sentence level ;)
14:19:30 -!- ihope has joined.
14:24:24 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
14:25:23 -!- pikhq has joined.
14:50:55 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
14:51:07 -!- jix has joined.
15:16:46 -!- ihope_ has joined.
15:34:35 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:18:18 * ehird` realises he uses #esoteric for a lot of "here's a technology-related idea, let's discuss it" insetad of "here's an esoteric-technology-related idea, let's discuss it"
16:18:23 <ehird`> maybe i should stop that ;p
16:18:55 <feesh> it's getting quite annoying now
16:42:36 -!- QS_E has joined.
16:42:43 -!- QS_E has quit (Client Quit).
17:25:06 <oklopol> 3 hours of sleep does that sometimes
17:26:02 -!- feesh has quit ("bbiab dinner").
17:35:24 -!- Grognor has joined.
17:35:32 -!- Grognor has left (?).
17:43:35 -!- ihope__ has joined.
17:43:39 -!- ihope__ has changed nick to ihope.
18:01:03 -!- ihope_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:08:45 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:23:44 -!- fizzie has joined.
18:26:14 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
18:53:40 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
18:55:05 -!- nooga has joined.
18:57:37 <nooga> have you seen TECO ? :D
19:00:55 <nooga> http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/T/TECO.html example
19:01:07 <nooga> J <.-Z; .,(S,$ -D .)FX1 @F^B $K :L I $ G1 L>$$
19:01:48 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Text_Editor_and_Corrector generally
19:03:04 <nooga> this is really eso
19:03:17 <nooga> and it was built to be usable editor, lol
19:03:54 <oklopol> nice, but you can get much more concise out of that much obscurity
19:04:20 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Text_Editor_and_Corrector#Example_3
19:04:30 <nooga> just check that out
19:04:42 <nooga> looks like white noise mapped to ascii
19:08:54 <nooga> not to mention it's quite ancient
19:09:01 <ehird`> TIABRA = TIABRA is a backronymed recursive acronym
19:17:25 <ehird`> BIAB = BIAB is a backronym ;)
19:19:13 -!- RodgerTheGreat has left (?).
19:47:34 <ihope> Recursive acronyms like RALRAA aren't arbitrary.
19:50:34 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:56:48 -!- MichaelRaskin_ has joined.
19:57:25 -!- MichaelRaskin_ has left (?).
19:57:44 -!- Tritonio has quit ("Bye...").
20:08:40 <ehird`> Sometimes recursive acronyms like SRALSTSTCUW take some thinking to come up with.
20:09:13 <ihope> Well, WWDTMETCUW didn't take much effort to come up with.
20:09:30 <ihope> You just have to calculate them lazily.
20:09:51 <bsmntbombdood> Well, (Well, WWDTMETCUW didn't take much effort to come up with.) didn't take much effort to come up with.
20:10:05 <ehird`> To be honest, random acronyms like TBHRALTSARAA sometimes aren't random at all.
20:10:05 <bsmntbombdood> Well, (Well, (Well, WWDTMETCUW didn't take much effort to come up with.) didn't take much effort to come up with.) didn't take much effort to come up with.
20:10:30 <oklopol> i hope ihiitlaitt is the last acronym in this thread...
20:11:03 <ehird`> No, I think the recursive acronyms (like NITTRALNWNS) will never stop.
20:11:58 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: Already taken actually, but as TIARA
20:12:53 <ihope> GIARA isn't a recursive acronym.
20:13:02 <ihope> It stands for "GPL isn't a recursive acronym".
20:13:02 <oklopol> (ehird`) Recursive RA. <<< wrong
20:13:16 <ihope> bsmntbombdood: you can hardly call that an acronym.
20:13:52 <ehird`> Another - AARR!! - recursive rendition?
20:14:22 <ehird`> Another - aargh! - recursive geometrical haystack?
20:15:03 <ehird`> Recursive acronyms, like RALRAF, are fun.
20:15:26 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood says... no, i can't be arsed
20:15:30 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood is a stick in my burrow
20:16:16 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood says "Mountain? No! To bsmntbombdood only must burrow. Deadly ogling owls die."
20:17:43 <ehird`> pikhq is kicking high quaters.
20:18:09 <oklopol> being sick may never tire bsmntbombdood, or maybe being dense opens other doors
20:18:11 <ehird`> SimonRC is moving only north, recursively - cool!
20:18:30 <oklopol> i really tried to make sense, but i just lack too much vocabulary :<
20:19:25 <ehird`> EgoBot goes on, building offtopic translations.
20:19:30 <ehird`> ^ that one's actually true
20:19:49 <ehird`> cmeme mostly eats maggots - eww
20:20:24 <ehird`> GregorR reads empowering goings-on, or readily replies.
20:20:56 <ehird`> ololobot lives only literally, overtly banning over terrain.
20:22:24 <ihope> That pair's a weird one.
20:22:30 <ehird`> ehird of unix-replacing daemons
20:22:39 <ehird`> empowering ehird of interfaces representing depth
20:23:43 <bsmntbombdood> HIRD of Unix-Replacing Daemons of Interfaces Representing Depth
20:23:55 <bsmntbombdood> HURD of Interfaces Representing Depth of Unix-Replacing Daemons of Interfaces Representing Depth
20:24:06 <bsmntbombdood> HIRD of Unix-Replacing Daemons of Interfaces Representing Depth of Unix-Replacing Daemons of Interfaces Representing Depth
20:24:20 <bsmntbombdood> HURD of Interfaces Representing Depth of Unix-Replacing Daemons of Interfaces Representing Depth of Unix-Replacing Daemons of Interfaces Representing Depth
20:24:28 <ehird`> AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
20:25:10 <ihope> Absolutely, I enter elephants' egregious earth-eating eruditely . . .
20:25:42 <ihope> AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE, I enter elephants' egregious earth-eating eruditely . . .
20:25:52 <ehird`> collaborative project idea: alphabet poem
20:25:59 <ehird`> all words start with A
20:26:28 <ehird`> hmm... Actually, alliteration angers all? :p
20:26:45 <nooga> it's really hard to design something like TECO
20:26:50 <ehird`> nooga only "OK"s graphically, also.
20:27:55 <ihope> ihope hinders operatic, paleontological expeditions?
20:29:22 <ehird`> this alphabet poem thing is actually pretty easy
20:29:29 <ehird`> here's two lines: Actually, alliteration angers all/But - bemusingly - big blasts bother
20:29:53 <ihope> Can cats categorize cations?
20:30:05 <ihope> Oops, all starting with ca(t).
20:31:15 <ehird`> Do dastardly doodles <something>?
20:31:46 <oerjan> Evidently everything esoteric enters egregiousness
20:32:36 <ehird`> we need something for <something>
20:34:11 <ehird`> Four fiddle-playing fathers? XD
20:37:30 <oklopol> Four fiddle-playing fathers fake fornication
20:38:19 <ehird`> Good - great gullible ghouls.
20:38:38 <ehird`> H must involve H2S04 ;p
20:41:20 <oerjan> H2S04 hardly helps health
20:42:48 <ehird`> nooga: Evidently everything esoteric enters egregiousness.
20:43:17 <oerjan> i think i should have said "evolves" instead of "enters" :(
20:43:37 -!- tombom has joined.
20:46:06 <nooga> i guess i'm tired or drunken, or i just don't get what are you talking about now :D
20:46:46 <ehird`> Eh, so only teabags esoteric really in cool.
20:51:08 <ihope> Kraken keys, um...
20:51:21 <ihope> Krakens're key. :-P
20:51:30 <ihope> !bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
20:51:52 <tombom> !bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++++++++++++.
20:52:13 <nooga> !sadol !"1!sadol works?
20:52:15 <EgoBot> BDSM: Parsing: Unexpected end of file (index: 16, row: 1, col: 17)
20:52:22 <oerjan> Esoteric seems otherwise to easily run in circles
20:52:41 <EgoBot> To use an interpreter: <interpreter> <program> Note: <program> can be the actual program, an http:// URL, or a file:// URL which refers to my pseudofilesystem.
20:53:34 <nooga> ehird`: check the wiki
20:54:12 <ihope> !sadol !",213Hello, world!
20:54:29 <ihope> And what a crazy string literal ",213Hello, world! is.
20:55:30 <ihope> At least it doesn't need escapes.
20:56:41 <ehird`> i think i can make the notation crazier
20:56:59 <ehird`> let's see, ( to push a call
20:57:47 <ehird`> and ~ is "pop if the function has been given enough arguments, otherwise change X into (X <ptr>)" (:a3
20:57:47 <tombom> !sadol (7:C",228!R!C!"7822,"R:!R!"9822,"C:7(:R",228(7:C",2289"!R!:R",2287"!C!RR!C!"7822,"R:!R!"9822,"C:7(
20:57:49 <EgoBot> BDSM: Parsing: Unexpected end of file (index: 98, row: 1, col: 99)
20:58:04 <ehird`> it starts off as (<ptr>)
20:58:48 <ehird`> it changes into (<ptr> X)
20:59:56 <ehird`> that's (hello (wo) rld)
21:00:41 <ehird`> that's (((he) lo) (wo) rld)
21:02:08 <ehird`> beginning = (<ptr>) and ~ = "if list has sufficient arguments, pop from list. otherwise, change list X into (<ptr> X)" is enough to express any sexpr right?
21:08:24 <tombom> !sadol (4:C",216!"9(4:C",216!C!C!"9(4:C",216!C!C
21:08:27 <EgoBot> (4:C",216!"9(4:C",216!C!C!"9(4:C",216!C!C
21:10:38 <ehird`> @ = change to end of list
21:14:49 <ehird`> world;hello~!@2 = (! (hello world) 2)
21:15:02 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/private/et5hd0myxvbjmzujdydf0w
21:15:11 <ehird`> that's a damn esoteric program format ;)
21:16:08 <ehird`> im pretty sure that can handle all lists
21:19:58 <ehird`> I'm trying to represent (a b (c d) e f (g h (i j)) k) in it
21:22:27 -!- ihope__ has joined.
21:22:42 -!- tombom has quit.
21:34:38 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
21:37:04 * SimonRC thinks that "clog logs our garbage" works better
21:38:23 <SimonRC> oh, and http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Alliteration
21:38:48 <SimonRC> "Alliteration articulates an artistic and alacritous approach aimed at annotating and arranging alphabetic accoutrements as alarmingly affective alignments." etc
21:39:41 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out).
21:40:32 <oerjan> i insist it is infinitely improved if it includes initialism in its index
21:40:46 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
21:41:01 <oerjan> and i do so without even looking at the page
21:52:50 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:05:46 <ihope__> Why is that in my spellchecker's dictionary?
22:06:37 <ehird`> random software musing, kinda esoteric: people make games in a day, but what about 1-hour games? you find a team, and have an hour to design and implement a game xD
22:08:13 * ihope__ ponders the relation between continuation-passing style and stack-based postfix notation
22:08:42 <ihope__> Stack-based postfix notation as in "2 3 +" means "push 2; push 3; pop twice, add, and push".
22:08:52 <SimonRC> ehird`: easy, you just need 12 times as many people working on it
22:09:32 <ihope__> And, I guess, whether CPS can turn that into "+ 2 3 output".
22:09:54 <ehird`> SimonRC: seriously, people do 1-day games that are quite elaborate
22:10:01 <ehird`> SimonRC: and 7-day games that seem like they took months
22:10:16 <ehird`> SimonRC: a good game could probably be made by 3-4 people in an hour
22:10:25 <ihope__> Go is all you need! Maybe.
22:12:52 * SimonRC wonders if Go contains an NP-complete problem.
22:13:24 <oerjan> P-space complete, actually
22:13:58 <ehird`> go contains /everything/
22:13:59 <oerjan> (which is presumably even harder)
22:14:26 <ehird`> i totally don't get go
22:14:34 <ehird`> its like they tried to create an incomprehensible game
22:14:47 <ehird`> maybe they /were/ trying to create a model of computation, though, like they did
22:15:42 <SimonRC> you put down pieces and the are catured if surrounded
22:16:40 <oerjan> LOGSPACE <= NLOGSPACE <= PTIME <= NPTIME <= PSPACE, NLOGSPACE != PSPACE and all other between unknown
22:17:21 <SimonRC> ehird`: really? I never noticed in all my time playing.
22:17:44 <SimonRC> there is a little to argue about in the claiming of territory, but that's about it
22:17:45 <ehird`> well, from the rules i've seen - even the "simple" versions - its a lot more complex than that
22:18:09 <ehird`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_Go?
22:19:59 <pikhq> SimonRC: Go may have simple rules (it's a bit more complex than you make it out to be, though), but its strategy is anything but.
22:20:12 <pikhq> It's very much an emergent game.
22:20:51 <ehird`> I would be useless at Go even if I grokked the rules I suspect
22:21:07 <SimonRC> nah, it just takes practice
22:21:21 <pikhq> I'm decent at chess, and barely even know how to *play* Go.
22:21:38 <ehird`> i'm lame at all board games
22:21:45 <SimonRC> the subtlties of Go are no worse than those of chess
22:22:08 <SimonRC> they tend to be fairly obvious, or at least the type of thing that you forget to mention because they are obvious
22:22:22 <SimonRC> like, infinite loops are bad, hence the Ko rule
22:22:37 <SimonRC> and you have to stop at some point, hence passing and seki
22:22:59 <ehird`> you're infiniteloopist
22:23:33 <SimonRC> and suicide is quite easy to remember as well
22:24:35 <SimonRC> to learn the lot, you just need a club
22:25:38 <SimonRC> you get taught the basic concepts at first, then lose dozens of games in stupid ways to learn the basic stratergy, while being taught the subtlties as they become necessary in your games
22:26:18 <SimonRC> BTW, the amount of practice is sfficient that you need a real passion for it if you are going to get high up
22:26:29 <SimonRC> and you need to be a nutter
22:28:01 <ehird`> "and suicide is quite easy to remember as well" you only need to know it once
22:37:25 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
23:06:03 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:52:23 -!- ehird` has quit.
23:59:41 <SimonRC> actually it is spelt "*rimshot*"
00:13:08 <oerjan> english spelling is _hard_
00:15:36 <SimonRC> actually, "rimshot" might be horrible jargon abuse
00:16:40 <oerjan> it is a little known fact that 97% of all english words started out as horrible jargon abuse
00:16:40 <SimonRC> ah, yes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_%28percussion%29
00:28:12 <ihope__> It's a well-known fact that 97% of statistics are made up on the spot.
00:30:02 <oerjan> although the equality of the two numbers have seen surprisingly little investigation, being mentioned in only 3% of the articles on the subject.
00:35:23 <ihope__> Only 3% of the articles on it have actually mentioned it?
00:35:45 <oerjan> i said it was surprising.
00:41:00 * oerjan reports SimonRC to the acronym police
00:41:04 <SimonRC> no, http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/
00:42:00 <SimonRC> they perform mass enslavement with words like "zat'nik'tel" and "Goa'uld"
00:42:27 <oerjan> i see. you wouldn't mind coming over to norway and cleaning up those apostrophes that have blown over the north sea?
00:42:39 <SimonRC> you can just about get away with in some of the cases, as sme of the languages have glottal stops, which are transliterated as '
00:42:57 <SimonRC> norwegian has apostrophes?
00:43:52 <oerjan> it's infected by english. there is probably a norwegian apostrophe extermination society somewhere...
00:44:35 <oerjan> far too often people put an apostrophe before a genitive s
00:45:23 * SimonRC likes http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif (and http://angryflower.com/destro.html)
00:45:30 <oerjan> strictly speaking it is sometimes correct to put an apostrophe after an s, similar to english plural genitives
00:51:45 -!- calamari has joined.
00:57:38 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
02:15:09 <bsmntbombdood> http://abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmntbombdood/group_small.jpg // yay!
02:16:27 <ihope__> bsmntbombdood: more pictures of you where we can't actually see you?
02:17:00 <bsmntbombdood> i take abstract pictures of myself because i'm uncomfortable with my appearance!
02:18:50 <ihope__> Which sense of "ass" is that?
02:19:01 <ihope__> If it's your donkey, then no, not really.
02:25:36 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
02:28:43 -!- GreaseMonkey has changed nick to N0BODY.
02:34:25 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
03:12:19 -!- ihope___ has joined.
03:12:24 -!- ihope___ has changed nick to ihope.
03:29:05 -!- ihope__ has quit (Connection timed out).
04:12:51 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving").
04:34:42 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
04:47:22 -!- nodos has joined.
04:48:54 <nodos> does esoteric programming languages have commercial use?
04:49:48 <nodos> I expected that :P
04:51:58 <nodos> probably not, anyway...
04:56:13 -!- N0BODY has changed nick to GreaseMonkey.
04:56:39 -!- nodos has changed nick to bfed.
04:59:04 -!- bfed has changed nick to nodos.
05:00:24 -!- calamari has joined.
05:02:37 -!- calamari has quit (Remote closed the connection).
05:03:50 -!- calamari has joined.
05:13:14 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit.
05:31:15 -!- nodos has quit ("Leaving.").
06:27:29 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving").
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
09:04:12 <nooga> bsmntbombdood: http://abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmntbombdood/foo.jpg this looks nice
09:05:17 <nooga> http://abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmntbombdood/pic_3.jpg << whish one is you?
09:14:40 -!- RedDak has joined.
09:16:23 <oklopol> i recall reading go was np
09:16:41 <oklopol> also semidecidable on an infinite board
09:26:37 <oklopol> hmm... pi calculus is trivial, methinks
09:30:11 <nooga> pi calculus seems to be nice background for another esolang :]
09:33:00 -!- oerjan has joined.
09:39:25 <nooga> i've just returned from norway :D
09:39:56 <oerjan> oklopol: no, Go is ("probably") harder than that, it's PSPACE-complete: http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/lr288/presentations/Go.pdf
09:40:49 <oklopol> oerjan: "ah" was "oh, oerjan cleared it up"
09:40:49 <oerjan> did you get to speak the language?
09:41:53 <oklopol> what other calculi are there? pi and lambda were so trivial there aren't enough letters to keep me busy for long if the rest are the same :)
09:42:00 <nooga> but i know some swedish instead >:D
09:42:56 <nooga> besides, almos all ppl in norway speak english better than me
09:43:55 <oerjan> that's said to be a problem learning norwegian - we switch to english if we detect you are not very good at norwegian
09:44:40 <oklopol> well.. that's pretty much true for any language other than english...
09:45:01 <nooga> in poland, ppl look at you and don't know what to do
09:45:06 <oklopol> it's true for finnish, swedish and german at least
09:45:08 <nooga> if you don't speak polish
09:45:12 <oerjan> oklopol: try some typed lambda-based calculus, like System F or calculus of constructions
09:45:42 <oklopol> http://sigfpe.blogspot.com/2007/09/type-of-distinct-pairs.html <<< was reading this, and realized i seem to have no idea what types are...
09:46:02 <oklopol> ...but i understood the first paragraph!
09:47:34 <oerjan> ideally you also want to look at sequent calculi for logics and the Curry-Howard isomorphism with types
09:48:03 <oerjan> in fact i guess you need that to understand the calculus of constructions
09:48:35 * oerjan just realized he might be scaring oklopol away
09:48:53 <oklopol> no no, i just don't know what to google for first...
09:49:25 <oklopol> there should be a list of stuff to learn somewhere, in order of complexity...
09:49:53 <oerjan> also, the Hindley-Milner type system used in Haskell and ML
09:50:12 <oerjan> (which is simpler than the other two i mentioned)
09:50:17 <oklopol> hmm... can you give me a link, i'll tell you if i get it :=P
09:50:55 <oerjan> although both languages add more on top
09:52:27 <oerjan> i'm not sure about links, try wikipedia
10:04:36 <nooga> oerjan: i deciphered a sign "kast ikke soppel i natur..." i guess it means "don't throw garbage in natural env..." :D
10:04:53 <nooga> without any help yay
10:05:47 <oerjan> "naturen" means "the nature"
10:05:49 <nooga> kast is like cast and cast means almost the same as throw
10:07:45 <oerjan> english being what it is, i think the term is "toss"
10:09:15 <nooga> http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9317/dsc00087gs0.jpg this sign is also funny
10:11:50 <oerjan> yeah, i have seen those signs
10:12:29 <oklopol> my swedish matriculation was today though, so might be a bit bad if i couldn't
10:12:47 <oklopol> listening comprehension that is, written part is later
10:13:08 <nooga> hehe, you don't like swedes i guess
10:13:08 <oklopol> hmm... it's the tests we had @ end of high school
10:14:34 <oklopol> nooga: i don't like swedes, or oerjan doesn't?
10:15:04 <oklopol> i don't care about nationality really
10:15:05 <nooga> i heard, that everybody in scandinavia hates them ;-)
10:15:37 <oerjan> including the swedes? well it might actually make sense
10:15:55 <nooga> but i find them funny and quite polite
10:15:55 <oerjan> at least after reading Arne Anka
10:16:38 <oerjan> yeah they talk funny ;)
10:17:19 <nooga> and they have those funny red houses
10:17:39 <oerjan> actually you find that in norway too
10:17:48 <nooga> but you have more black ones
10:18:02 <oerjan> i mean in the countryside
10:18:23 <oerjan> i think this house is brown
10:18:34 <oklopol> you don't go out much, eh?
10:18:57 <oerjan> i don't go out to watch this house :)
10:20:39 <fizzie> This house is made of red bricks: http://tietokilta.fi/esittely/tttalo/img/t-talo-etukulma-lahempaa_s.jpg
10:20:46 <fizzie> (Not that I live here or anything.)
10:21:20 <nooga> besides, in poland i can buy 0.5l vodka, one bread and smoked fish for 50nok, in norway.... maybe one bread and some butter
10:21:41 <oerjan> definitely no vodka :D
10:22:09 <oerjan> well, maybe one small shot
10:23:22 <fizzie> Well, that's only if u=k.
10:23:25 <nooga> 1 eur = 3.60 pln , 1 pln = 2nok
10:23:49 <oklopol> oh, indeed, i failed !'s semantics.
10:24:19 <fizzie> euro/nok = eurø/nøk = eur/nk.
10:25:15 <oerjan> oklopol: you finns call it that?
10:25:52 <oklopol> in finnish, words are rarely finnified
10:26:16 <oklopol> because that'd require too much work
10:26:57 <nooga> i heard that finnish is almost as difficult as polish, if i was forced to learn polish again i would fail definately
10:27:05 <oklopol> in finnish, you also couldn't even have "eur"
10:27:11 <oklopol> u and can't be in the same word
10:27:17 <nooga> so i guess with finnish it wold be the same
10:27:45 <oklopol> it's exactly because we have vowel harmony, i missed your line
10:28:14 <nooga> chrzaszcz brzmi w trzcinie, w strzebrzeszynie
10:28:23 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure polish is easy
10:28:26 <nooga> does it fit your vovel harmony?
10:28:44 <fizzie> It's got about three-four times as many consonants as it needs, though.
10:29:00 <oklopol> yeah, bad serialization there
10:29:02 <nooga> we've got śćółńążź
10:29:11 <nooga> but i guess you can't see them
10:29:21 <oklopol> is that a polish word or jsut the list of the letters?
10:29:40 <fizzie> I can see the third one there. (This work-box does latin-1 at the moment.)
10:30:32 <oklopol> i've never seen that unary umlaut used in ż
10:30:47 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_language#Orthography
10:30:47 <fizzie> The 'slashed-l' looks funny.
10:31:02 <oerjan> (local dialect, means "i'm in 'A', too")
10:31:10 <fizzie> Already opened a more reasonable terminal.
10:31:32 <fizzie> "scolnazz" sounds like a word.
10:31:49 <oklopol> oerjan: norwegian, that is?
10:31:59 <oklopol> i though it was "school nights" :D
10:33:12 <nooga> the most funny thing is that in polish we've got many rules, which have something about 2000 exceptions
10:33:22 <nooga> so are theese rures really? :D
10:34:28 <nooga> or many ways to say the same like: gdzie żeś ty był, gdzie ty byłeś, gdzieś ty był
10:34:43 <nooga> it means exactly the same
10:35:01 <nooga> or gdzie żeś był, gdzie byłeś
10:35:27 <oklopol> there's no way to convince me it's not trivial, sorry :<
10:35:28 <nooga> = where were you (to man)
10:35:56 <nooga> because you're finn
10:36:01 <oklopol> i'll learn it some beautiful day
10:36:18 <oerjan> wow, english wikipedia passed two million articles
10:36:22 <oklopol> is polish anyway related to finnish?
10:36:42 <oerjan> polish is indo-european
10:36:59 <oklopol> so it's not "because you're finn", it's "but you're wrong"
10:37:05 <nooga> but you have complex grammar
10:37:13 <oerjan> like english, norwegian and swedish
10:37:18 <oklopol> well yeah, and thus have a bigger brain, true
10:37:59 <nooga> so you're used to those constructions like shit-tons of cases, genres and other thingys
10:39:15 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russenorsk LOL!
10:40:49 <nooga> i must go out and buy some food
10:41:48 <fizzie> There's just 15 noun cases, is that really a lot?
10:43:53 <fizzie> Well, no. But not all of them are even commonly used.
10:44:41 <nooga> multiply that 15 by 3 genres and 3 times and 6 person and 2 sides and add some exceptions
10:45:45 <oerjan> it's much easier with agglutination. just heap on more suffixes!
10:46:41 <fizzie> Which is what we mostly do.
10:47:07 <oerjan> i don't think polish does.
10:47:08 <nooga> arrgh, because you're finns
10:48:30 <fizzie> Agglutinativeness makes word-based speech recognition language models work really crappily, though, since you can't get a reasonably sized lexicon.
10:48:39 <nooga> oerjan: yeah, but try to use a dictionary
10:50:44 <nooga> but my dog undestands "iść" = to go, "idziemy" = we go, "pójdziemy" = we will go and "pójdzieszyou wi" ll go, the same with wyjść, wyjdziesz, wyjdziemy (which means generally to go out)
10:50:55 <nooga> pójdziesz = you'll go
10:52:57 <nooga> brb, i need pójść to the shop ;)
10:54:15 <fizzie> And does the dog understand the differences there?
10:54:40 <nooga> but it understands what will happen :D
10:54:47 <nooga> after saying one of those
11:04:36 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Man who stand in frond of car is tired. Man who stand behind car is exhausted.").
11:10:13 <fizzie> Word-splitted the irclogs of one Finnish-speaking channel (252856 lines; one year) to see if our words actually get to be so long everyone says they do. The longest real word there was "epäjärjestelmällistyttämättömyydelläänsäkäänkinköhän" (52 characters), but I think that was just an example of a long word.
11:16:38 <nooga> finnish words are long ;p
11:16:49 <nooga> sou you don't talk too much
11:17:22 <oklopol> hmm... i doubt "kn" and "kin" can be in the same word, and i remember that without "kin"
11:17:49 <oklopol> i don't understand it with "kin"
11:18:07 <fizzie> The other long words seem to be boring compound words.
11:18:34 <oklopol> i've heard "epkumarreksituteskentulaisehkollaismaisekkuudellisentelemttmyydellnsknkhn"
11:18:42 <oklopol> but i can't really find the base word there...
11:18:53 <oklopol> that's something i memorized when i was little
11:19:23 <oklopol> sorry, epkumarreksituteskenteleentovaisehkollaismaisekkuudellisentelemttmyydellnsknkhn
11:19:53 <oklopol> most of it seems coherent, but the beginning doesn't seem to start a word...
11:19:58 <nooga> but that's a cheat
11:20:14 <nooga> you can make one word with a meaning of whole sentence
11:21:20 <fizzie> There's "kahdensinekymmenensine-ensimmäisineen" as a spontaneous word in the logs, but that's just an inflected (the silly comitative case, I think) ordinal number 21, with the third-person singular possessive suffix.
11:21:25 <nooga> i should make an esolang whish would look like finnish words
11:21:59 <nooga> heheh, 21 is famous
11:22:00 <oklopol> haha, i love how finnish numbers inflict :P
11:22:14 <oklopol> many people don't know how to do it
11:22:15 <nooga> dwudziestypierwszy in polish ;p
11:22:42 <nooga> with 3-rd person possesive suffix it would be dwudziestegopierwszego
11:23:08 <nooga> dziewięćdziesiątegodziewiątego
11:23:43 <oklopol> i mean, the infliction system
11:24:15 <oklopol> i mean, that you map the infliction to every separate digit in the whole number
11:25:30 -!- Tritonio has joined.
11:26:48 <nooga> hey oerjan, i just bought 8 rolls for 4nok :D
11:27:03 * oerjan points out that infliction and inflection don't quite mean the same thing, although given finnish both _may_ be appropriate
11:27:06 <nooga> while you can buy one roll for 10, probably
11:27:34 <nooga> oerjan: wiem to, ja nie mówie po fińsku :)
11:28:10 <nooga> you both begin with o
11:28:24 <oklopol> my father has been to poland, apparently
11:28:40 <oklopol> "why were you there?" "to pass the time"
11:28:57 <oerjan> strangely enough i think i understand everything except "wiem"
11:28:58 <oklopol> nooga: my father wants to know where you live in poland
11:29:19 <nooga> oklopol: in poznan
11:29:50 <nooga> oerjan: hehe, wiem to = i know that..
11:30:31 <nooga> oklopol: cool, probably 20 years aggo, when poland was in dam USSR and looked like shit ;/
11:31:42 <oklopol> nooga: 1968 first, then 3 times after that, but didn't remember when
11:32:02 <nooga> it must be horrible
11:32:19 <nooga> to remember those times ;p
11:32:53 <oklopol> well, he was there "to pass the time", and he was there four times, i don't think it was *that* unpleasant
11:33:48 <nooga> i like to go and pass the time in scandinavia ;p
11:33:53 <nooga> eg. nera indre folda
11:35:07 -!- ehird` has joined.
11:37:45 <nooga> and fight with mosquitos big as tractors
11:38:14 <oklopol> yeah they're huge, i just was a meter long one on my trip to school today
11:39:10 <nooga> hre, we've got small ones an they're not immune to repellents, like yours
11:39:55 <oklopol> hmm... you must have really good eyes, if they're smaller than ours
11:40:09 <oklopol> (i've been to norway, they're pretty pathetic there too :))
11:41:38 <oerjan> it's not the size, it's the numbers. especially in Finnmark, i hear.
11:44:38 <oklopol> oh, that i must agree with...
11:44:41 <nooga> i must create some sandwitches
11:45:18 <oklopol> i remember being on a car trip with my parents, we once had to stop for a while because you actually couldn't see well enough to drive
11:46:13 <fizzie> Misread "being in a car trap with my parents". That sounds interesting.
11:46:15 <nooga> "honey, today i overtook 6 mosquitos on the highway""
11:48:17 <nooga> i was cleaning the grill of my car on every stop
11:48:41 <nooga> to make it white again
11:49:17 -!- ehird`_ has joined.
11:50:02 <oerjan> i don't think insisting on a clean car in Norway is good for your sanity. although mostly because of mud, i guess.
11:52:05 <nooga> and those gravel roads
11:52:19 <nooga> everybody drive fast on them
11:52:32 -!- ololobot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
11:52:40 -!- ehird` has quit (No route to host).
11:52:52 <nooga> and damage my precious paint with little rocks
11:53:42 <oerjan> although i've heard worse things about italians - apparently they consider the car bumper a tool to be used during parking
11:57:41 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: www.XLhost.de )").
12:01:05 <nooga> in poland, if the speed limit is 90 you go 100-110 or faster
12:01:26 <nooga> in norway, i tried to keep 80
12:01:38 <nooga> because i was afraid of police
12:02:17 <nooga> here, maximal ticket is about 1000nok (eg. for driving 140 when the limit is 50
12:03:12 <oerjan> ah yes the fines were increased a while ago to amounts even norwegians consider ridiculous
12:03:47 -!- ehird`_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
12:03:49 -!- ehird` has joined.
12:12:07 -!- Figs has joined.
12:12:16 <Figs> http://digg.com/apple/Steve_Jobs_Offers_Early_Lisa_Adopters_Store_Credit <-- :P
12:14:52 <nooga> http://www.bbspot.com/News/2007/08/iphone-hacker-headed-to-guantanamo.html
12:14:54 <nooga> this one is better
12:16:17 <nooga> "We couldn't have a powerful phone like the iPhone working on a speedy network. ..."
12:16:32 <nooga> ...It would've become the perfect tool for fashionable terrorists. ..."
12:16:42 <Figs> "I haven't seen him sleep or comb his hair for a few weeks. He usually looks like that, so I'm not too worried."
12:16:54 <nooga> ah, normal 17-year old hacker
12:17:02 <nooga> but to guantanamo?!!?!?!
12:17:27 <nooga> that is ridiculous
12:17:55 -!- oklopol has joined.
12:18:01 <Figs> for a few weeks? pssshaaw! I don't think I've combed my hair in months, let alone a *Few weeks*
12:18:11 <Figs> ... hi oklopol
12:18:27 <oerjan> that reboot took you a while :D
12:18:29 <Figs> http://digg.com/apple/Steve_Jobs_Offers_Early_Lisa_Adopters_Store_Credit <-- you missed the fun
12:18:37 <oklopol> well... i played my piano a bit
12:18:38 <Figs> http://www.bbspot.com/News/2007/08/iphone-hacker-headed-to-guantanamo.html
12:18:40 <Figs> and the other fun
12:19:00 <Figs> I thought you meant me
12:19:06 <Figs> so you played piano, eh? :D
12:19:19 <Figs> got anything for me? :D:D:D:D
12:19:24 <Figs> *smily overload*
12:21:23 <oklopol> i composed and learned to play a piece of my own a few days ago, but haven't touched yours for a while :)
12:21:46 <oklopol> it's not really a piece, like 4 bars sofar
12:21:50 * Figs has beaten the guru.
12:22:03 <oklopol> i still think it's not that hard!
12:22:11 <oklopol> i'll do it before christmas kay? :)
12:22:26 * Figs would like to hear it still
12:22:36 <Figs> it just sounds... familiar... :)
12:22:59 * Figs will leave it at that ;)
12:23:35 <oklopol> 4.5 pages of TODO list now
12:23:53 <oklopol> (though it also has other random stuff)
12:23:55 <Figs> I still have to finish my damned parser :sigh:
12:24:18 <Figs> I've been working on it (REALLY WORKING!!) since january... and I'm still not "Done" with it
12:24:24 <oklopol> like examples of my work-in-process conlang
12:24:24 <oklopol> cats you can have sex with are great
12:24:42 <Figs> what about cats now? O_o
12:25:01 <oklopol> cats you can have sex with are great == nipofucaa
12:25:22 <oklopol> though requires a bit of library imports first
12:25:35 <Figs> your conlang requires libraries ?!
12:25:41 <oklopol> i have a hard time interpreting pieces of text with more than one languages in them == meshnuclalnatevn
12:25:43 <Figs> are we talking about the same things?
12:25:52 <oklopol> well, libraries, modules, whatever
12:26:09 <Figs> conlangs like esperanto?
12:26:31 <Figs> how the hell do you have modules/libraries in a spoken language?
12:26:37 <oklopol> that one can be made considerably shorter with imports, it now has explicit library tags there
12:26:53 * Figs gives up understanding
12:26:59 <oklopol> well, you just have basic words in the stdlib
12:27:16 <oklopol> then there's "the animal module", "the programming module" etc
12:27:20 <Figs> http://www.zompist.com/kit.html
12:27:29 <nooga> oklopol: how it works?
12:27:36 <oklopol> you have the same word base mean a different thing depending on the current library
12:27:43 <Figs> what does that mean ? :P
12:28:15 <ehird`> how do yuou pronounce meshânucólalnatevênò
12:28:46 <oklopol> i'm mainly aiming for a written language, but it's pronounced as lojban, pretty much
12:28:59 <oklopol> ^, and ` are always the same thing, i think
12:29:07 <Figs> meash Ayn *flarg* nUUUUC AYYYYN *slpurt* laaalnatev AYRHN ghrr-g n ayrrn SPPPH
12:29:21 <ehird`> "meshânucólalnatevênò" -> "flooble"
12:29:26 <Figs> oklopol: esperanto
12:29:51 <oklopol> ehird`: what's the logic there?
12:30:05 <ehird`> oklopol: its easier than pronouncing "meshânucólalnatevênò"
12:30:21 <ehird`> i only like languages with odd alphabets anyway
12:30:35 <Figs> ehird`: like apl? :P
12:30:43 <Figs> http://www.zompist.com/dhitelan.gif
12:30:44 <oklopol> i don't really care about the alphabet
12:30:45 <oerjan> aq fnt brk sprtskert grfnak
12:31:34 <oklopol> meshânucólalnatevênò is easy to pronounce anyway
12:31:51 <oklopol> once you know how the tone stuff works
12:31:59 <Figs> of course! You just say "meash Ayn *flarg* nUUUUC AYYYYN *slpurt* laaalnatev AYRHN ghrr-g n ayrrn SPPPH"
12:32:02 <oklopol> intonation... or something
12:32:14 <ehird`> ^ that should be a word
12:32:27 <Figs> AsholAngrrjeytamart
12:32:55 <Figs> have fun with that one :D
12:33:11 <oklopol> Figs: that supposed to be hard to pronounce?
12:33:26 <oklopol> i don't see how anything can be hard to pronounce, just make the sounds :|
12:33:29 <Figs> that's my interpretation of what you said
12:33:33 <ehird`> çæj˙t, i like that word
12:33:47 <oklopol> i don't know what ç and æ are
12:33:49 <ehird`> oklopol: is "a" pronounced "augh" or "ooo""?
12:33:55 <ehird`> oklopol: pronounciation is language-specific.
12:34:15 <ehird`> oklopol: see, you have to specify that.
12:34:25 <Figs> oo+ umop ap!s&n le+ noh ue>
12:34:41 <oklopol> "it's pronounced as lojban, pretty much"
12:34:43 <Figs> [try turning your head over]
12:38:35 <Figs> ????ll?n??? 'un? ?o pui? si si??
12:38:43 <oklopol> ehird`: do specify how that's pronounced
12:39:06 <Figs> oo? no? o? u?op-?pisdn dn ?o?s si?? s?op
12:39:06 <ehird`> çæj't is pronounced kinda like english "gait"
12:39:21 <Figs> does that work, or do you guys get boxes?
12:39:54 <oklopol> ehird`: but not exactly like it?
12:40:16 <ehird`> its kind of like "gate"
12:40:47 <oklopol> are there consonants english doesn't have?
12:40:59 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection).
12:41:00 <Figs> what do you say when some trips over their fence? ... His gait was off?... not really funny :(
12:41:01 <ehird`> i'll try and find words to explain it
12:41:36 <Figs> http://www.revfad.com/flip.html <-- evil and cool together
12:41:47 <oklopol> when a gate is off, is it closed?
12:41:58 <oklopol> when a gait is off, is it off-beat?
12:42:59 <oerjan> bah, just strange hooks
12:44:16 <ehird`> t-with-` doesn't display properly
12:45:30 <Figs> [.]_ [.] <(Balrog says "Hi")
12:45:36 <Figs> kudos if you get it
12:45:44 * Figs + lame ascii art
12:45:53 <oerjan> Figs: like the upper left corner of a rectangle
12:47:09 <Figs> is [] allowed in a nick name?
12:47:13 -!- Figs has changed nick to Figs][.
12:47:32 -!- Figs][ has changed nick to Apple][.
12:47:54 -!- Apple][ has changed nick to Figs][.
12:48:43 -!- Figs][ has changed nick to Figs.
12:49:14 -!- oklopol has changed nick to []kl[]p[]l.
12:49:44 -!- []kl[]p[]l has changed nick to oklopol.
12:51:35 -!- oklopol has changed nick to o|.
12:51:41 <o|> check the spec
12:51:44 -!- o| has changed nick to oklopol.
12:52:14 <oerjan> there's a speck on my cheque
12:52:25 <ehird`> çæj't is kind of like "gate", but not really
12:52:33 <ehird`> challenge: what does tås'i sound like
12:53:15 <ehird`> the t isn't really a t
12:53:42 <ehird`> well, i'll try and pronounce çæj't
12:53:43 <oklopol> or just "t" without the implicit "h"
12:53:56 <oklopol> i forgot the term again...
12:54:19 <ehird`> well, ç is kind of like a cross between "c" and hard "g"
12:54:36 <Figs> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fig_newton2.jpg <-- I should set this as my icon
12:54:58 <ehird`> ' means "don't do the crazy mushing-together-consonant-stuff-on-this", so it's like a break. it is not pronounced
12:55:07 <ehird`> t is kind of like a "soft" english t
12:55:14 -!- sebbu has quit ("reboot").
12:55:18 <ehird`> its kind of like the "t" in "th", except more pronounced
12:55:33 <oklopol> the "t" in "th" can be two different things
12:55:37 <ehird`> so çæj't /kind of/ sounds like "gate"
12:55:45 <oklopol> also, in british english there's a third one
12:56:04 <ehird`> oklopol: i'm british, so the british english "then" i think
12:56:14 <ehird`> oklopol: "the" is too soft a t
12:56:32 <oklopol> "the" is the exception, you seem to have a separate consonant for that..
12:56:50 <ehird`> maybe the "t" in "the"
12:56:56 <ehird`> yeah, the "t" in "the" except more pronounced
12:57:00 <ehird`> i.e. not /quite/ as soft
12:57:04 <ehird`> still soft, but now audible
12:57:17 <ehird`> i have trouble pronouncing it myself :p
12:57:28 <ehird`> i can play it in my head :p
12:58:18 <ehird`> whoa, my comment got 86 points on reddit</nerd>
12:58:43 <Figs> what's your reddit name
12:59:03 <Figs> http://reddit.com/user/ehird/ << --- ?
12:59:14 <Figs> haha, I read that earlier
12:59:23 <Figs> {the invisible one, right?}
12:59:31 <Figs> I thought the name looked familiar
12:59:34 <Figs> but I couldn't remember why
12:59:48 -!- oerjan has quit ("Dinner").
12:59:54 <oklopol> http://www.revfad.com/flip.html <<< "w" and "m" give me squares, is that because i don't have utf8 or it just doesn't know?
12:59:56 <ehird`> i am internet-omnipotent
12:59:56 <Figs> I have (1) karma :'(
13:03:49 <ehird`> hmm, çæj't and tås'i are beginning to look like regular words
13:03:57 <ehird`> instead of exotic belches of text
13:04:05 <Figs> text-belch, blargh!
13:04:48 <Figs> I used ascii magic :P
13:05:18 <Figs> ? <-- help me find a way to make that look naughty
13:05:45 <Figs> http://mirror.linnwood.org/flamethrower/
13:05:54 <oklopol> ehird`: they looked pretty normal all along, i just don't know what they mean yet
13:06:06 <ehird`> oklopol: what, they're meant to have meaning?..
13:06:15 <Figs> they mean what they say.
13:06:20 <ehird`> oklopol: I just wrote words that could be pronounced in a consistent system because they looked and sounded nice.
13:06:21 <Figs> didn't you know that? ;)
13:06:35 <Figs> endofendobargraph.
13:06:46 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
13:07:18 <Figs> hello SEO_DUDE
13:08:35 <Figs> it means it's not cheesy enough.
13:08:45 * Figs invented a meaning.
13:08:48 <ehird`> oklopol: Help me develop it as a conlang then :p
13:09:05 <Figs> ehird`: Jo ho ho no ho lo ko po ho?
13:09:14 <ehird`> Figs: Ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho?
13:09:24 <Figs> Ho ho ho! Sa ho ho klaus.
13:09:29 <oklopol> ehird`: right after i finish my own languages :)
13:11:39 <Figs> ehird`, you are now my friend
13:12:39 <ehird`> :D YAY AM HAPPY LOLLERSKATES.
13:21:44 * Figs lollerscates around
13:25:31 -!- sebbu has joined.
13:29:51 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:50:43 -!- jix has joined.
14:27:38 <Figs> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Object_disoriented_Turing-completeness_proof Error!!
14:43:20 <Figs> the post is taking off
14:50:52 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
14:51:03 -!- jix has joined.
14:52:37 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:12:38 <Figs> http://digg.com/apple/Steve_Jobs_Offers_Early_Lisa_Adopters_Store_Credit
15:13:23 <Figs> it doesn't load and says error?
15:14:21 <Figs> ergh, if we could just get like, 7 ~ 10 diggs all at the same time
15:14:25 <Figs> this link would take off
15:14:28 <nooga> Figs: i've found that article!@
15:15:27 <nooga> 13:12 < Figs> http://digg.com/apple/Steve_Jobs_Offers_Early_Lisa_Adopters_Store_Credit <-- :P
15:15:30 <nooga> 13:15 < nooga> http://www.bbspot.com/News/2007/08/iphone-hacker-headed-to-guantanamo.html
15:15:34 <nooga> 13:15 < nooga> this one is better
15:23:20 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
15:23:31 -!- oklopol has joined.
15:39:00 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
15:43:22 -!- Sgeo has joined.
16:12:52 -!- Figs has left (?).
16:49:42 -!- jix has joined.
17:03:58 * Sgeo wonders if there's anything else PSOX needs
17:04:05 <Sgeo> Besides the builtin domains
17:04:14 * Sgeo is considering removing RStrings..
17:05:33 * Sgeo waits for bsmntbombdood to make his usual insult against PSOX
17:08:46 <ehird`> when has bsmntbombdood ever insulted psox?
17:09:12 <ehird`> unless you consider constructive criticism, like I give and that I've seen bsmntbombdood give related to PSOX, insults
17:18:16 <Sgeo> Blargh, I forgot whatever criticism there may have been
17:18:21 * Sgeo goes through logs
17:18:27 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood has only said "psox has not point", iirc :P
17:18:33 <oklopol> i'm not sure if that's constructive
17:20:11 <oklopol> i think psox is a great idea
17:20:56 <oklopol> ti-84 makes me wanna kill myself
17:21:31 <oklopol> the features seem to be picked completely at random, and there is no syntax that binds them
17:21:38 <oklopol> everything is done in a random fashion
17:21:46 <oklopol> which you have to check from the manual
17:21:56 <oklopol> ti-84 is my oh so lovely calculator
17:22:19 <oklopol> now implementing "sublist"...
17:22:25 <Sgeo> I guess I should make the functions in the domains have some sort of sensible order..
17:23:05 <fizzie> Well, you can write z80 assembler for it; there's no need to use the silly TI-BASIC.
17:23:25 <fizzie> (At least the TI-BASIC version my TI-86 uses is silly.)
17:24:09 <oklopol> fizzie: yes, but then again, i could just as well code python on my laptop
17:24:35 <oklopol> when coding for the same of coding, it doesn't really matter what you code for...
17:25:23 * Sgeo doesn't know how to make the functions have a sensible order
17:26:33 <Sgeo> At least the order of the domains is sane: 0x00 and 0x01 are Pseudodomains, 0x02 is PSOX-System, 0x04 is Simple Utils, 0x06 is File I/O (note that 'F' is the 6th letter), 0x08 is HTTP (note that 'H' is the 8th letter)
17:26:46 <fizzie> I did floyd-steinberg error-distribution dithering with TI-BASIC once. I think it took around 15 minutes to process a single full-screen (128x64-pixel) greyscale frame.
17:26:46 <Sgeo> erm, maybe just somewhat sane..
17:30:09 <oklopol> i'm not making anything with a big name, so the speed'll do
17:58:10 <pikhq> Sgeo: Believe me, I can sympathise.
17:58:21 <pikhq> I had a migraine that kept me up all last night.
18:07:38 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:19:02 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:23:10 <Sgeo> Hi sebbu2 and oerjan
18:25:49 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
18:25:49 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
19:06:17 <SimonRC> ok, so I am feeling high and oklopol is feeling low
19:06:47 <SimonRC> we need a conversation topic...
19:07:19 <Sgeo> I think everyone knows what I would suggest..
19:07:41 <oklopol> teaching combinatorics to my ex :D
19:07:57 <oklopol> what a great way to train for the listening comprehension in german tomorrow...
19:08:03 <SimonRC> Any idea what the "other side" of vore is?
19:08:22 <SimonRC> Sgeo: actually, probably best not to look it up
19:09:04 <SimonRC> you should be able to decompose that into its roots
19:15:16 <SimonRC> I mean, vore is being eaten
19:15:17 <oerjan> personally i think people who butcher latin grammar like that deserve to be eaten alive :D
19:15:35 <SimonRC> oerjan: unless they enjoy that sort of thing
19:16:15 * oerjan notes joke strangely passing straight over SimonRC's head
19:30:41 <Sgeo> Does PSOX need anything more, other than the builtin domains?
19:37:01 <pikhq> Just domains and functions, as far as I can tell.
19:37:18 <Sgeo> Should I remove RStrings?
19:39:39 <Sgeo> They seem redundant..
19:44:39 <pikhq> How are they redundant?
19:44:57 <Sgeo> Longstrings could be used instead. What esolang would want to send RStrings?
20:03:47 <Sgeo> For File I/O, I only need to really provide one unsafe function: Change Current Directory
20:03:57 <Sgeo> There would be a safe version and an unsafe version..
20:04:22 <Sgeo> and other file stuff needs to be in the current working directory
20:04:37 <Sgeo> actually, you'd set a directory to a number 0-255
20:04:52 <Sgeo> and the file stuff would refer to that number to work in that directory..
20:07:47 <Sgeo> hm, but a user giving permission to change directory to ~ just gave it permission to do ANYTHING..
20:08:56 <Sgeo> So scrap that idea
20:19:50 -!- ihope___ has joined.
20:19:56 -!- ihope___ has changed nick to ihope.
20:20:49 -!- ihope has quit (Client Quit).
20:31:03 <nooga> they're tasty and healthy
20:33:35 <nooga> those from bathroom
20:37:34 -!- importantshock has joined.
20:51:41 <Sgeo> Hi importantshock
20:52:14 * Sgeo thinks the core of PSOX is almost finished
20:59:37 <importantshock> there is little to no documentation for anything, all the libraries are changing around daily, the Django guys are total wankers, and meanwhile Ruby and Rails are kicking our ass more and more every day
21:00:05 <Sgeo> Aren't there stable versions of Django?
21:00:42 <importantshock> yes, but Django comes with a lot of things i don't like
21:01:39 <ehird`> python web development is trivial
21:01:54 <ehird`> ruby on rails does not kick python web lib's asses because it is fundamentally wrong
21:02:03 <ehird`> django guys are indeed total wankers, as are turbogears and web.py
21:02:10 <importantshock> SQLAlchemy, on the other hand, scares off almost everybody with its hideously verbose table declarations
21:02:12 <ehird`> sqlalchemy is kinda lame imo
21:02:20 <ehird`> Paste and CherryPy are quite nice
21:02:23 <ehird`> i don't like pylons that much
21:02:40 <importantshock> pylons seems to fit my mental model, it's simply a matter of personal preference
21:02:42 <ehird`> personally i use my tiny little wrapper around raw wsgi
21:02:50 <importantshock> but SQLAlchemy 0.4 doesn't play nice with ANYTHING AT ALL.
21:02:53 <ehird`> which right now is just an extremely short object publisher
21:03:00 <ehird`> but i'm going to add sessions of some sort sometiime
21:03:21 <ehird`> i run multiple sites by writing a very small (50 line) raw-wsgi script which forwards requests to different apps
21:03:26 <ehird`> it all works beautifully along with fastcgi
21:03:35 <importantshock> Elixir, an awesome declarative layer on top of SQLAlchemy, got fucked by SA's multiple changes
21:03:37 <ehird`> oh, yeah, and i'm still mulling over templating languages
21:03:46 <ehird`> i'll probably write my own
21:04:20 <ehird`> mako looks quite nice, but i want something all python
21:04:28 <ehird`> i'll make an example of my current syntax idea..
21:04:48 * Sgeo doesn't get what's wrong with Django..
21:05:02 <ehird`> Sgeo: its bloated, its not pythonic, it sucks
21:05:31 <importantshock> Sgeo: They keep reinventing wheels other people have perfected
21:06:52 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/private/7x9wtnmmizbnlupczinznw
21:07:06 <ehird`> ^ example of my current in-my-head syntax for the ideal templating language
21:07:28 <ehird`> you'll notice that [[ ... ]] is statements and {{ ... }} expressions
21:07:35 * jix clicks on that url
21:07:47 <ehird`> and the def blocks are naturally handled because :-ending lines add 1 to indentation in the compiled output, etc. - it's not hardcoded
21:08:03 <ehird`> so you could do [[ with x: ]] ... [[ end with ]] or any of those syntaxes ending with :
21:08:07 <ehird`> and starting an indented block
21:08:07 <importantshock> ehird`: i saw a new templating language that sort of looks like that
21:08:17 <ehird`> importantshock: jinja?
21:08:26 <ehird`> importantshock: if so, yeah but it doesn't use python =/
21:08:33 <ehird`> all the templating engines are really overengineered
21:08:40 <ehird`> implementing the one in my paste would be very trivial
21:11:23 <importantshock> ehird`: on the bright side there are so many templating engines that there's probably at least one that fits your zen
21:12:41 <ehird`> yeah i've searched but i can't find one
21:12:47 <ehird`> i guess i will just implement my syntax there
21:14:15 <ehird`> does anyone know some sort of basic fastcgi server i can just do:
21:14:35 <ehird`> "server my-fastcgi-file.fcgi" and it'll spawn it and also run a minimal development-oriented webserver with that?
21:14:39 <ehird`> itd make testing a dream
21:16:32 <ehird`> (related note on the templating language: {{var}} is escaped by default, {{func(var)}} isn't - i'll have to think about how i'm going to do that)
21:18:26 <importantshock> Gah, it seems like for SQLAlchemy 0.4 everyone just sat down and said "how can we make our library more obtuse, indirect, and difficult to learn?"
21:19:51 <ehird`> importantshock: perhaps espy's orm will suit you
21:19:56 <ehird`> its an orm without the orm
21:20:19 <ehird`> conn.select('*', from='table', limit=3)
21:20:28 <ehird`> i haven't decided on "where" yet but probably:
21:20:55 <ehird`> conn.select('*', from='table', limit=3, where=F('field') > 3)
21:21:05 <ehird`> F, of course, being a placeholder class
21:21:21 <ehird`> conn.select('*', from='table', limit=3, where=(F('field') > 3) and (F('anotherfield') == 'a'))
21:26:43 <ehird`> conn.select('*', from=User, limit=3, where=User.field > 3 and User.anotherfield == 'a')
21:27:26 <ehird`> importantshock: does that look good? :)
21:27:59 <jix> it doesn't imho
21:28:37 <Sgeo> What's wrong with Django's way?
21:28:39 <ehird`> ok, how about conn.select(ALL, ...) or similar
21:29:02 <ehird`> the thing about queries from class objects is that from an OOP point of view they don't make a lot of sense
21:29:14 <ehird`> you are performing the query on the database connection, and you want instances as a /result/
21:31:02 <importantshock> i feel an ORM should hide details of database connections
21:31:45 <importantshock> and from a purely aesthetic point of view, class queries are more readable
21:31:50 <ehird`> it does hide it quite well
21:32:00 <ehird`> but a database connection is still a tangible thing
21:32:07 <ehird`> and it's a thing that you perform operations on -- like selecting
21:32:23 <ehird`> you don't "perform" a select on the type of all users...
21:32:32 <ehird`> you "perform" a select on the database connection to get some users
21:38:06 <jix> i want the database connection to be hidden
21:38:18 <jix> i have users and don't want to care about what connection i use to access them
21:38:35 <jix> and if i want to get something about users i want to use the users class
21:39:33 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
21:53:30 -!- importantshock has quit.
22:11:17 * Sgeo should work on the domains now
22:11:46 <Sgeo> Hm, simple utils should have the printy stuff, math, and a rng
22:12:43 <Sgeo> Anything else?
22:15:31 <Sgeo> pikhq, with the simple math stuff, what should happen with overflows in single-byte mode?
22:18:21 * nooga have just hacked some community portal written by swedes ;D
22:19:14 <oerjan> shooting fish in a barrel does not count as "hacking"
22:20:37 <Sgeo> pikhq, what about div. by zero?
22:21:49 <nooga> no no, really, through blind sql injection
22:22:09 <pikhq> Well, you could either follow the behavior of Brainfuck, error out, or return some meaningless value.
22:22:52 <oerjan> indeed, what _does_ brainfuck do on division by zero again ;D
22:23:11 <Sgeo> Would a status code be ok?
22:23:22 -!- ihope has joined.
22:23:23 <fizzie> Do the Befunge thing: ask the user.
22:23:26 <Sgeo> Even though the other single-byte maths don't have error codes?
22:23:27 <pikhq> The typical Brainfuck division algorithm does an infinite loop on divide by zero. . .
22:23:50 <nooga> return 0 and warning
22:23:57 <Sgeo> Would status codes be too difficult?
22:24:02 <Sgeo> They could always be discarded..
22:24:10 <Sgeo> Would 0x01 be error, or 0x00?
22:24:20 <nooga> i wonder how bdsm does it
22:24:35 <EgoBot> BDSM: Double division '/' by 0 (index: 1, row: 1, col: 2)
22:26:01 <Sgeo> and should I add overflow/underflow status to the single-byte operations?
22:33:16 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
22:34:34 <pikhq> Command to get error status?
22:34:41 <pikhq> (overflow, underflow, divide by 0)
22:38:09 <Sgeo> Why add a command?
22:38:55 <Sgeo> Isn't it easier to discard status that's in front of the resu;t?
22:42:43 <ehird`> division by zero = infinity ;)
22:45:04 <Sgeo> Well, I should get going now
22:46:46 <Sgeo> Please note the new http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt and http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-utils.txt
22:47:08 <Sgeo> The psox-utils.txt isn't finished, ofc
22:47:18 <Sgeo> I will work on that tomorrow or, if I'm lucky, later today
22:47:38 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat").
23:18:47 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
23:39:35 -!- Rodger-Labs has joined.
23:40:13 <Rodger-Labs> aw, man- these lab machines have a terrible IRC client. <:/
23:41:18 <oerjan> not much for the last hour
23:41:45 <oerjan> Sgeo is working on his PSOX
23:43:20 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:44:59 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("haaaaaaaaaa").
23:59:06 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
00:59:42 <ehird`> it appears coldfusion is not turing complete
00:59:49 <ehird`> based on the fact that you can't implement coldfusion in coldfusion
01:03:54 <bsmntbombdood> that means it could be more powerful than a turing machine
01:19:21 -!- ehird` has quit.
01:34:43 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection).
02:08:45 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
02:18:52 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
02:37:50 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection).
03:07:38 -!- Rodger-Labs has left (?).
03:15:00 -!- importantshock has joined.
03:49:28 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
04:40:16 -!- zuzu_ has joined.
04:44:30 -!- importantshock has quit.
04:54:16 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:20:42 -!- immibis has joined.
08:21:09 -!- immibis has left (?).
09:05:01 -!- RedDak has joined.
09:49:51 -!- oerjan has joined.
10:46:12 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
11:55:29 -!- ehird` has joined.
12:19:27 -!- RedDak has quit ("I'm quitting... Bye all").
12:40:44 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
12:54:50 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+").
12:59:05 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
13:03:37 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:15:40 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
13:38:16 -!- sebbu has joined.
14:03:16 -!- jix has joined.
14:04:15 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
14:26:36 -!- Tritonio has joined.
14:33:09 -!- jix has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
14:33:44 -!- jix has joined.
14:34:28 -!- Overand has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:34:31 -!- Overand has joined.
14:36:38 -!- lament has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:36:46 -!- lament has joined.
14:51:24 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
14:51:36 -!- jix has joined.
15:14:22 <bsmntbombdood> i wonder if you can make a turing-complete system out of differential and integral calculus
15:15:36 <oklopol> a rotten apple in the end of a string is tc
15:26:28 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:28:12 * Sgeo wonders if he should include some function somewhere for putting 0x00 in the input stream
15:28:25 <Sgeo> Might be nice for some input processing..
15:48:05 -!- ihope has joined.
15:50:20 -!- ihope has quit (Client Quit).
15:51:31 -!- ihope has joined.
15:53:10 <ihope> How very interesting.
15:53:38 -!- importantshock has joined.
16:00:07 <ihope> Can't forget that !.
16:01:12 <EgoBot> BDSM: Parsing: Cannot evaluate number in compilation time (index: 2, row: 1, col: 3)
16:03:04 -!- puzzlet has joined.
16:03:22 -!- importantshock has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:05:12 <Sgeo> Hi ihope and puzzlet
16:05:19 * Sgeo pokes his question
16:05:23 * Sgeo wonders if he should include some function somewhere for putting 0x00 in the input stream
16:06:01 <ihope> Seems a little pointless.
16:06:11 <ihope> Also, why limit it to 0x00?
16:06:51 <Sgeo> The input function, when set to read a newline, might be easier to process with a 0x00 added..
16:07:02 <Sgeo> There might be other things like that..
16:07:23 <Sgeo> Maybe I should just add a 0x00 after the 0x0A from that, instead of a function for adding characters?
16:07:27 <ihope> I don't see what you mean.
16:09:50 <Sgeo> In http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt under Pseudodomains
16:10:16 <Sgeo> Should I just add a complimentary 0x00?
16:25:34 <ihope> http://pastebin.ca/692103
16:25:52 <ihope> My opinion on all this.
16:32:30 <ihope> Slightly revised version: http://pastebin.ca/692113
16:35:48 * Sgeo fails to see how that integrates with the current state of PSOX
16:35:57 <ihope> It's an alternative to PSOX.
16:36:46 <ihope> (An alternative to PSOX that happens to be able to switch to PSOX, if the implementation feels like allowing that to happen.)
16:43:31 <Sgeo> ihope, you want PSOX to be able to do arbitrary x86 stuff?
16:44:12 <ihope> Yet another version, with a magic number this time: http://pastebin.ca/692131
16:44:54 <ihope> Well, it's not PSOX, and the implementation (server, I guess) need not allow the program to do that.
16:46:24 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
17:14:35 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:18:21 -!- Sgeo has joined.
17:21:03 <SimonRC> heheh: http://crave.cnet.co.uk/0,39029477,49292669-1,00.htm
17:21:04 <SimonRC> Challenge: create similar images for: ZBB, DeviantArt, 4chan
17:38:53 <Sgeo> SimonRC, do you think it's easy enough for a BF program to process newlines in the current version of PSOX?
17:40:03 <SimonRC> dunno, I haven't been keeping track
17:40:20 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt under Pseudodomains
17:50:02 <Sgeo> pokity poke poke poke
17:51:56 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:17:59 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:09:13 -!- puzzlet has joined.
19:42:54 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:53:38 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
20:01:22 * Sgeo should work on PSOX
20:01:42 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:02:20 -!- ehird` has joined.
20:07:18 * Sgeo needs to foce himself to get working on PSOX
20:08:25 * ehird` is trying to figure out even one usage case for emacs
20:08:27 <oklopol> try poking yourself, it seems to work so well for everyone else :)
20:19:06 <ihope> Sgeo: define some constants for http://pastebin.ca/692131 instead? :-P
20:19:57 <Sgeo> If you want raw x86 access, define a PSOX domain
20:24:31 <ehird`> i was just referring to my hunt for emacs-usage-cases. i can't even think of an esoteric one!
20:25:35 -!- Tritonio has joined.
20:26:35 <SimonRC> ehird`: what do you edit with?
20:28:00 <ihope> Is http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt a complete spec for the current state of PSOX?
20:28:24 <Sgeo> I'm probably going to remove RStrings
20:28:32 <Sgeo> Er, there is another document outside of that file
20:29:01 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-safety.txt will be part of it
20:29:13 <Sgeo> And of course, the files referred to by psox.txt
20:31:22 <ihope> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-utils.txt, you mean?
20:31:40 <Sgeo> There will be more files:
20:31:48 <Sgeo> One for the File I/O domain, and one for HTTP
20:31:56 <ehird`> SimonRC: but never emacs. =)
20:32:06 <ihope> Sgeo: mine's much simpler :-P
20:32:07 * SimonRC uses emacs for Haskell and vi for system stuff
20:32:33 <SimonRC> "for (int o=0; o<rng->Get(5)+1; o++)" <--- I bet the author didn't indend that
20:32:51 <ihope> (The x86 thing was just an example.)
20:32:57 <Sgeo> ihope, and less flexible >.>
20:33:02 <ehird`> ((why are you in #LOLCODE? you joined in my scathing criticism of it in here when it was first released :P))
20:33:12 <Sgeo> How would people add their own things and not risk conflicts?
20:34:11 <SimonRC> remember, I am the reason the 2-armed if comes in 72 different syntaxes
20:34:44 <ihope> SimonRC: pff, 72? 71 would be much more impressive :-P
20:34:49 <SimonRC> every time people disagreed about anything, I just
20:35:06 <SimonRC> involked the spirit of PL/I and sugested they compromise
20:35:09 <ihope> Sgeo: oh, someone could create a "switch" raw format or something.
20:35:57 <ehird`> "LOLCODE should be clean and kid-safe." -- wikipedia article
20:36:01 <ehird`> shit, are they gonna make kids use this stuff?
20:36:10 <ehird`> i fear for the next generation of programmers
20:36:38 <SimonRC> this generation grew up with BASIC
20:36:45 <SimonRC> ah, shit, I see what you mean
20:36:55 <ehird`> this generation uses PHP
20:37:09 <ihope> Does this mean that "shit" is going to be LOLCODE syntax? :-P
20:39:32 <ehird`> http://lolcode.com/contributions/contributions how much of this crap did you make, SimonRC?
20:40:33 <ehird`> "This describes continuations, or as we like to call them (rather confusingly), threads. " <-- what.
20:42:24 <SimonRC> I only contributed to the 1.0 spec; I missed the other meetings. http://lolcode.com/specs/1.0
20:43:15 <ehird`> Since all variables are arrays, <-- please tell me you did that
20:45:13 <Sgeo> Wasn't that in the factory language?
20:45:48 <ehird`> i honestly don't know but its such a retarded idea that it has to be a troll
20:47:06 * ihope ponders generalization
20:47:56 <ihope> I want a language feature that all other language features are really just instances of.
20:48:22 <ehird`> ihope: make it a Language Feature specification system
20:48:35 <ehird`> (Aka a turing-complete programming language so you can implement the features...)
20:49:49 <ihope> Maybe all language features are either checks or... um, that other thing.
20:49:52 <lament> all variables are arrays in MATLAB.
20:50:04 <ihope> What are they arrays of?
20:50:33 <ihope> Hey, you can do worse: all variables could be parsers :-)
20:50:44 <ihope> All values, rather.
20:51:07 <lament> ihope: numbers, usually.
20:51:11 <lament> ie, variables are matrices
20:51:34 <lament> setting a variable to a number actually sets it to be a 1x1 matrix.
20:52:05 <ihope> I'm guessing you don't have first-class functions in this language.
20:53:02 <ihope> Those could be hard to represent as matrices of numbers.
20:53:02 <fizzie> MATLAB has anonymous functions (stuff like "@(x) x*x") you can pass as parameters and return as values; but they might not do lexical closures or anything. Don't remember the details.
20:53:38 <fizzie> Not everything is an array there; but there are no non-array numeric types, all numbers are 1x1 arrays.
20:54:36 <Sgeo> Ok, see the "get newline" thing for the PSOX Pseudodomain input?
20:54:42 <Sgeo> Should I have a 0x00 come after it?
20:55:54 * Sgeo pokes lament and fizzie and SimonRC
20:56:18 <Sgeo> pikhq should probably have a say too
20:56:19 <fizzie> I haven't been following that particular discussion, so unable to comment.
20:56:23 <Sgeo> And ihope if he's interested
20:57:10 <ehird`> Sgeo - do you do anything but psox
20:57:36 <Sgeo> Browsing various flash movies right now :/
21:01:52 <ehird`> am i the only one who thinks http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/fugue/src/hworld.mid is nice and tuneful?
21:02:17 <lament> you might possibly be the only one to listen to it.
21:03:14 <Sgeo> Listening to midi's == difficult
21:04:28 <ehird`> people should write more Fuge code
21:04:42 <ihope> I like this: http://www.stephensykes.com/choon/choonmul.wav
21:05:15 <ehird`> and then remake it in garageband or whatever with effects so you have the soundtrack for the next wtar sars movie and also a program to print 99 bottles of beer.
21:05:18 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:05:25 <ihope> This is even better: http://www.stephensykes.com/choon/choondiv.wav
21:06:58 <SimonRC> choon doing division sounds great
21:07:06 <ehird`> http://www.stephensykes.com/choon/choon.html this
21:08:27 <lament> my main complaint about choon was that it was monophonic
21:08:55 <ehird`> The John Cage instruction ('%') causes a one note silence in the output stream.
21:09:02 <ehird`> shouldn't that be 4:33 of silence?
21:09:46 <lament> but choon sounds nice and sci-fiish
21:10:37 <lament> Fugue gives much more freedom to the programmer and it's entirely possible to write decent-sounding music in it
21:10:55 <Sgeo> But... it's MIDI argharghargh!
21:11:24 <ehird`> http://www.stephensykes.com/play/index.html What the hell is this
21:11:52 <ehird`> i think it's a rubik's cube
21:12:07 <lament> Sgeo: hm, on my computer, i just have to enter the URL into firefox.
21:12:31 <lament> although i'm sure on windows the behavior is the same
21:12:38 * Sgeo is using Linux and a sound card with no decent MIDI support
21:12:53 <lament> well, why are you using an inferior os? :)
21:13:23 -!- fax has joined.
21:14:39 <fax> I am using os x
21:16:05 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
21:17:32 <ihope> I'm using, um, Windows.
21:17:45 <ihope> (Yup. It's called, um, Windows now.)
21:19:10 * Sgeo decides to take inspiration from the inspiration for PSOX
21:20:22 <Sgeo> Funny, you know, the thing that caused me to consider safety features was little '*' by some functions indicating that it should ask the user first..
21:23:38 * ihope ponders queues in Choon
21:23:47 <ihope> If you can't implement a queue, it's not Turing-complete.
21:24:23 <oerjan> can you implement two stacks?
21:24:40 <oerjan> that can simulate a deque, i think
21:24:44 <ihope> I think that's of equal difficulty.
21:24:57 <oerjan> (also a turing tape, as you probably know)
21:25:02 <ihope> It can simulate a tape easily, which is equivalent to a queue.
21:25:19 <ihope> ...if not more powerful than a queue.
21:25:48 <ihope> No, a queue can simulate a tape.
21:27:00 <Sgeo> OSHI--- if I didn't reread the Easel API, I would have forgotten about time functions.
21:29:25 <SimonRC> also, if you have 3 registers that can hold nats, and some simple arithmatic, you have turing completeness
21:29:48 <ihope> I'm pretty sure a queue can simulate a tape.
21:29:58 <ihope> Ah, yes, Minsky machine.
21:30:15 <SimonRC> (you can use div and mod to get chunks of bits off the bottoms of the numbers, and mult and add to put them on, so you effectively have 2 stacks)
21:31:52 <ihope> Yeah, you can increment and decrement with transpositions and test with the tuning fork.
21:32:59 <ihope> A tape from a queue?
21:33:36 <fizzie> No, I think it was "how do you tape a stack from a queue".
21:33:48 <ihope> Have an end-of-tape marker embedded in it somewhere. Zeros can be added on either side of the end-of-tape marker as necessary.
21:33:58 <SimonRC> you fold the tape into a loop, and have a symbol to represent the beginning-end of the tape, and keep going round it a lot
21:34:56 <ihope> And a head marker, too.
21:35:24 <ihope> Put the head marker in right before the word the head is "over".
21:35:44 <SimonRC> you will need a couple of registers too, I think
21:36:05 <ihope> Finite storage, yes.
21:36:15 <bsmntbombdood> a queue has two operations: push, pop. implement the 4 tape operations left, right, read, write
21:37:17 <SimonRC> well, going left right is easy...
21:37:48 <SimonRC> you will have a register to hold th currently value
21:38:08 <SimonRC> you push the current value, then pop a new one
21:38:09 <ehird`> minsky machines are pretty crazy
21:38:22 <ehird`> i bet the most minimal esolang could come from one
21:38:40 <ihope> ehird`: I think BCT is pretty much the most minimal esolang.
21:39:15 <ihope> BCT doesn't have any flow control at all :-)
21:39:30 <SimonRC> to go left you have to push a marker before pushing the current value, then push-pop all the way round the queue to the point just before it
21:39:47 <SimonRC> I think you need two registers to do that, to give you look-ahead
21:40:24 * Sgeo pokes SimonRC to his question about input
21:41:12 <ehird`> i would like to see some sort of hello world in bct
21:41:28 <Sgeo> See for the 0x00 0x01 function, how you can choose to have PSOX give you up to a newline?
21:41:40 <ihope> ehird`: just have "Hello, world!" in your initial input.
21:41:44 <Sgeo> Should I include a complimentary 0x00 after that newline, to make processing easier in some circumstances?
21:41:49 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt
21:41:54 <ehird`> ihope: cheating! i want a stack emulation
21:41:57 <Sgeo> Under Pseudodomains
21:42:00 <ehird`> ihope: which gets filled with Hello, world!
21:42:21 <ihope> Hmm, I guess initial input would be "1" for minimalness.
21:42:41 <ihope> (Oh, and MiniMAX also deserves a mention, of course.)
21:45:06 <Sgeo> So that a BF program might be doing [>,] or something if it knows the line won't have a NUL
21:45:36 <SimonRC> waitamo, *which* NL are we talking about here?
21:46:05 <Sgeo> After the newline retrieved by the function
21:48:51 <SimonRC> yes, there should, I think
21:50:20 <ihope> ehird`: it's pretty easy to fill input with an arbitrary string, as long as you know your starting string and your starting string contains a 1.
21:51:29 <ehird`> ihope: it shouldn't be an arbitary string - it should actually emulate a stack
21:53:25 <ihope> The BCT queue is an interesting data structure, isn't it?
21:54:03 <SimonRC> it is not really a datastructure
21:54:26 <ihope> ...Well, it's inaccessible.
21:54:36 <ihope> That sort of makes it not a data structure.
21:54:53 <SimonRC> there is no "choce" in how to use it
21:55:07 <SimonRC> it processes data rather than just storing it
21:55:32 <ihope> That too, I guess.
21:55:40 <SimonRC> a queue is a datastructure, a BCT is a compting machine
21:56:08 <SimonRC> a large array is a datastructure, a PC is a computing machine
21:56:40 <SimonRC> the PC is not a "datastructure", but it is built around one, roughly
22:02:47 <ehird`> nobody has wrote a significant yael program yet =(
22:05:25 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:14:27 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat").
22:32:26 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
22:32:52 <ehird`> there should be impromptu challenges organized in this topic
22:33:00 <ehird`> like, some sort of way of proposing a challenge
22:36:40 <SimonRC> time for an all-punctuation argument (join in):
22:37:55 <ehird`> there should be an esolang where parens must on no occasions be balanced
22:39:23 <oerjan> an esolang purely with parentheses?
22:39:23 <SimonRC> well, you could make the closing paren undo the opening paren
22:39:46 <SimonRC> then any program where al the parens matched would do nothing
22:40:15 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
22:40:33 <ihope> Parenthesis esolangs are easy.
22:40:49 <ihope> Take Iota. Replace * with ( and i with ). Prepend (.
22:40:52 <SimonRC> or, you could take the program specified by the parens, then run it to create a program in another language, which is in turn run
22:41:07 <SimonRC> then if the second program is nul because the first program matched, that is an error
22:41:35 <ihope> Hmm, that makes it so a list is interpreted as a list of things to be applied to i.
22:42:08 <ihope> Alternatively, don't prepend (. This'll make one where they can't be matched :-)
22:49:31 <oklopol> that kinda looks like it has balanced brackets
22:49:37 <oerjan> are they actually different?
22:49:40 <ihope> Doesn't that require twice as many characters as Iota, always?
22:49:54 <ihope> Mine requires exactly one more.
22:50:11 <ihope> bsmntbombdood: also, do you see how to simulate a tape with a queue?
22:50:14 <oklopol> i thought ihope's was for what ehird` said
22:59:44 <ehird`> html doesn't actually suck it turns out
23:00:01 <ehird`> html has this as a 100%, w3c-concurs valid document:
23:00:09 <ehird`> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN">
23:00:09 <ehird`> <title>Minimal HTML document</title>
23:00:14 <ehird`> (or, of course, with </p>)
23:00:29 <ehird`> seriously -- <head>, <html>, <body> -- all optional
23:01:12 <ehird`> thats been discussed many other times in many places; no point repeating the whole debate
23:01:18 <ehird`> use google or something :)
23:01:58 <oklopol> html sucks because you don't need to be consistent about your tag endings?
23:02:14 <oklopol> i mean, that makes html better than xhtml?
23:02:24 <ehird`> oklopol: you can tell the validator to scream at you for not matching tags
23:02:37 <ehird`> oklopol: i was referring more to the lack of bloat like a url in the doctype, stupid <html> tag itself, etc
23:02:48 <ehird`> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN">
23:02:48 <ehird`> <title>Minimal HTML document</title>
23:02:48 <ehird`> is equally as fine as an example
23:02:56 <ehird`> nice, simple, uncluttered, a non-sucky example
23:03:41 * ehird` is not fully decided on <p>
23:03:57 <ehird`> it can be interpreted as "PARAGRAPH {}" or "END PREVIOUS PARAGRAPH; START NEW ONE"
23:04:31 <ehird`> i think ending them is good.
23:05:00 <fax> I don't like putting identifiers in the </close tags>
23:05:23 <fax> I would if I could
23:05:39 <ehird`> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN">
23:05:39 <ehird`> <title>Minimal HTML document</>
23:05:39 <ehird`> <h1>This is a minimal HTML document</>
23:05:39 <ehird`> <p>It's a lot less cluttered than many HTML documents you might have seen.</>
23:05:45 <ehird`> http://validator.w3.org/#validate_by_input
23:05:59 <SimonRC> you left out the BODY tags
23:06:06 <ehird`> SimonRC: please read above
23:06:13 <fax> Line 1, Column 0: character "e" not allowed in prolog.
23:06:13 <fax> ehird`: <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN">
23:06:15 <ehird`> SimonRC: 1. thats still 100% valid 2. <body> is retarded
23:06:37 <ehird`> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN">\n<title>Minimal HTML document</>\n<h1>This is a minimal HTML document</>\n<p>It's a lot less cluttered than many HTML documents you might have seen.</>
23:06:41 <fax> Passed validation
23:06:53 <fax> I must modify my HTML generator thingy at once
23:06:56 <ehird`> however im not sure any browsers support that
23:07:11 <ehird`> it just doesn't recognize it as a closing tag
23:07:14 <fax> I will demand support
23:08:13 <fax> my stupid browser doesn't support it
23:08:20 * fax emails the programmers
23:08:32 <ehird`> the validator allows a lot of stuff that doesn't work in anything
23:09:55 <SimonRC> ah, you are usingthe abomination that is HTML 4.01, rather than the beautiful XHTML
23:10:15 <ehird`> xhtml is not beautiful
23:10:22 <SimonRC> it is from a computer's PoV
23:10:32 <fax> no it isn't :(
23:10:39 <SimonRC> TBH, I would prefer S-expressions
23:10:41 <ehird`> the html i showed is perfectly parsable trivially by a computer
23:10:48 <ehird`> don't blame shitty docs for the bad rep html has
23:11:31 <SimonRC> I meant that HTML is a little messy whereas XML is a bit cleaner
23:11:48 <ehird`> the downsides an xml-based language bring are probably not worth the little bit of messiness they fix ;)
23:11:58 <ehird`> + there's the whole "browser with initials IE" thing
23:12:06 <ehird`> and its, you know, "not supporting xhtml" thing
23:12:23 <SimonRC> (alternatively, HTML is practical whereas XHTML is interlectual wankery)
23:12:39 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: <if><eq a="x" b="y">...</if>
23:12:56 <ihope> Is XHTML 1.0 Strict the... "cleanest"?
23:13:04 <ehird`> ihope: according to zealots
23:13:06 <ihope> ehird`: eew, a and b...
23:13:33 <fax> I would rather use [html](body){p}{/[}(/body)[/html]
23:13:34 <ehird`> ihope: according to sane people - including tons of people working at "nice valid web" companies like Opera - clean HTML 4.01 Strict is the way to go
23:13:34 <SimonRC> <call><function>fn</function><argument>arg1</argument><argument>arg2</argument></call>
23:13:51 <ehird`> html 4 has the advantage of, you know, being supported by IE
23:14:11 <ehird`> and, you know, not being a messy based-on-xml-but-sometimes-not-valid-xml standard
23:14:25 <oklopol> (+ (* 4 6) (- 8 2)) ==> <+> <*> 4 6 </*> <-> 8 2 </-> </+>
23:14:35 <ehird`> oklopol: not really...
23:14:42 <SimonRC> ehird`: actually XHTML is XML
23:14:53 <ehird`> SimonRC: iirc there are some cases where valid xhtml is not valid xml
23:15:07 <ihope> Indeed, IE over here doesn't like application/xhtml+xml.
23:15:21 <ehird`> SimonRC: i cannot recall
23:15:24 <SimonRC> except for some of the oddness I find with <meta>, ISTR
23:15:28 <ehird`> oklopol: + is not a valid identifier in xml
23:15:34 <ehird`> ihope: "doesn't like"?
23:15:42 <ehird`> ihope: its more like IE completely doesn't render application/xhtml+xml files
23:15:58 <oklopol> ehird`: being like xml != being xml
23:16:02 <ehird`> ihope: and if you serve it as text/html, you're breaking the standards (well, it DOES say you can send it like that for backwards compatibility--BUT:)
23:16:09 <ehird`> ihope: it renders text/html as, well, html
23:16:11 <fax> <apply><function>+</function><li><ul><apply><function>*</function><li><ul>4</ul><ul>6</ul></li></apply></ul><ul><apply><function>-</function><li><ul>8</ul><ul>2</ul></li></apply></ul></li></apply>
23:16:19 <ehird`> ihope: so really your xhtml is just tag soup with odd /> elements and stuff.
23:16:33 <ehird`> ihope: thus, IE absolutely and 100% does not support XHTML in any way
23:17:08 <ehird`> so: HTML 4.01 Strict is the way to go
23:17:37 * ihope sends XHTML as text/plain for fun
23:19:24 * SimonRC thinks up a FS where every file has its doctype in the metadata
23:19:45 <SimonRC> ehird`: I shall call it, HTTPFS
23:19:48 <ehird`> The title of this document should read exactly "TEST" and you should see "PASS" below:
23:19:48 <ehird`> FAIL <-- well that failed royally
23:19:55 <ehird`> SimonRC: http has nothing to do with doctypes k.
23:20:11 <SimonRC> ehird`: HTTP has a "doctype" header
23:20:28 * ihope ponders HTML with Haskell syntax
23:20:28 <SimonRC> so an HTTPFS would have doctypes as I described, I think
23:20:47 <ehird`> SimonRC: no it does not...
23:20:59 <fax> ihope: have you seen some haskell libs to generate html?
23:21:07 <fax> (so horrible)
23:21:10 <oerjan> i vaguely recall doctypes are part of the MIME standard, or something like that
23:21:20 <fax> it is worse than HTML
23:21:23 <ehird`> ihope: what's the syntax for maps in haskell?
23:21:28 <fax> SimonRC: D:
23:21:30 <ehird`> ihope: String => anything that is
23:21:38 <fax> I only saw one but it was by no means elegant
23:21:47 <ihope> ehird`: I don't think Haskell has a syntax for maps, unless you consider a function a map.
23:22:03 <SimonRC> ehird`: you just use Data.Map
23:22:07 <oerjan> well, MIME uses the same doctype designations, doesn't it?
23:22:21 <ehird`> SimonRC: example please ;)
23:23:33 <ehird`> Map ("key", "key") (1, 2) right?
23:23:39 <oerjan> http://haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/base/Data-Map.html
23:24:48 <ehird`> Html (Map () ()) [Head (Map () ()) [Meta (Map ("http-equiv", "content") ("Content-Type", "text/html") [], Title (Map () ()) ["hello"]]
23:24:55 <ehird`> but that looks convoluted
23:25:09 <SimonRC> ehird`: what does map have to do with html?
23:25:41 <ehird`> children is a list of strings and Tag-s
23:25:47 <ehird`> attrs is some kind of string=>string map
23:25:53 <ehird`> voila, html in haskell
23:26:02 <fax> [([Char],[[Char]])]
23:26:12 <fax> eh that's not what I meant
23:26:48 <bsmntbombdood> (html (title "Minimal HTML document") (h1 "This is a minimal HTML document") (p "It's a lot less cluttered than many HTML documents you might have seen."))
23:26:55 <ihope> html {Head = head {Title = "foo"}; Body = [p "Hello, world!"]}
23:27:09 <fax> that would be ok
23:27:15 <fax> if its composable
23:27:50 <ihope> I like that sexp stuff.
23:27:59 <ihope> ...assuming that's a sexp :-P
23:28:04 <SimonRC> Text.Html does cool things with typeclasses to remove most of the hard part of writing Html
23:28:27 <ehird`> {HTML"@!!h~["fo"~@KO"Hello, world!
23:28:32 <fax> http://haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/html/Text-Html.html
23:28:38 <SimonRC> ehird` was talking about it
23:28:49 <SimonRC> it is the Haskell HTML-producing library
23:28:51 <fax> wow that's real
23:29:00 <oerjan> although there is absolutely nothing in that sexp that is illegal haskell syntax...
23:29:01 <fax> I never saw that before
23:29:10 <ehird`> SimonRC: wow, I just described my own syntax
23:29:29 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: what is different?
23:30:03 <SimonRC> ehird`: ah, you were not using Text.HTML
23:30:39 <SimonRC> you can do things like foo +++ bar, and both foo and bar are auto-converted to HTML
23:30:45 <SimonRC> and HTML is not just strings
23:30:50 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: ok make those upper-case then it's data :)
23:30:50 <ehird`> cool, but i write my html in html
23:30:58 <ehird`> on the subject of html
23:31:05 <ehird`> what are people here's opinions of templating languages?
23:31:17 <bsmntbombdood> in haskell you would have to deal with all the horrid types
23:31:46 <fax> (<p> thing " " (<i> name) " not found")
23:32:48 <ihope> What's this about horrid types?
23:33:01 <fax> haskell's type system is great fun :p
23:33:13 <fax> and you can use it to code for you
23:33:39 <ehird`> haskell should have a subtype of (x -> y) -- "Halts"!
23:34:16 <ihope> I think that would sort of ruin the allness of forall a. a.
23:34:45 <ehird`> "Halts" doesn't fall prey to the p(p) problem does it?
23:34:56 <ehird`> where p = if x halts loop forever else halt
23:35:02 <ehird`> if x given itself as input
23:35:53 <SimonRC> here is Text.Html in use: http://www.willamette.edu/~fruehr/454/code/Webby.hs
23:36:19 <ehird`> i don't like it that much
23:36:41 <SimonRC> It is good for programattic generation
23:37:17 <ehird`> but a lot of those programmatic cases could be solved with a templating language ;)
23:37:21 <fax> lambda `beside` (haskell `above` purely)
23:37:24 <fax> that's cool
23:37:30 <ehird`> but some of them probably need it yeah
23:40:18 <SimonRC> this would look nicer if they had actually used the HTML typeclass properly http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~pls/repos/lambdaFeed/HTML.hs
23:42:35 <SimonRC> imageToHTML, itemToHTML, and enclosureToHtml should all have been methods of toHtml instead
23:45:20 <SimonRC> making Image, Item, and Enclosure instances of HTML
23:55:39 -!- fax has quit.
00:02:56 -!- ehird` has quit.
00:04:32 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
00:14:42 <SimonRC> maybe it is funnier on bash
00:32:34 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+").
01:09:48 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
01:27:45 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/usr.bin/sed/TEST/math.sed
01:29:05 * SimonRC wonders where th sokoban in sed got to
01:29:51 <SimonRC> and there is a nearly-full dc written in sed
01:33:56 <pikhq> Removes an item from the stack and outputs it without a newline.
01:34:04 <pikhq> (why no newline is beyond me)
01:34:21 <ihope> So that you can have no newline?
01:36:00 <ihope> Ooh! Maybe I'll slightly revamp my parser language and call it "Cetacea".
01:39:41 <bsmntbombdood> oooh, i think sed could actually be implemented in dc
01:39:55 <bsmntbombdood> by storing strings as lists of numbers instead of the builtin strings
01:41:02 <pikhq> Of *course* sed could be implemented in dc.
01:41:12 <pikhq> At least, GNU dc is Turing complete. . .
01:43:07 <bsmntbombdood> dc even has 128 tapes and an extra stack, so it's 128.5 times more powerful than a turing machine!!
01:43:29 <pikhq> A simple dc is merely a push-down automaton.
01:46:42 <pikhq> Could you find said man page?
02:02:53 <GregorR> Clearly SimonRC is BORED by dc.
02:37:52 <lament> i always got confused about why there's both dc and bc
02:37:56 <lament> and as a result, learned neither.
02:43:42 -!- puzzlet has quit (Client Quit).
02:51:38 -!- puzzlet has joined.
02:52:08 -!- puzzlet has quit (Client Quit).
02:58:32 -!- puzzlet has joined.
03:02:44 -!- puzzlet has quit (Client Quit).
03:04:09 -!- puzzlet has joined.
03:17:37 <pikhq> lament: Traditionally, dc was an RPN calculator, and bc was an infix frontend for the same.
03:17:55 <pikhq> In GNU, they're just different programs in coreutils.
03:18:17 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: GNU's implementation doesn't.
03:18:39 <bsmntbombdood> bc also has silly things like functions, variables, and structured loops
03:19:07 <pikhq> "It is not implemented in the traditional way using 'dc'." -- bc.info
03:19:28 <pikhq> . . . It has a bytecode compiler?!?
03:19:41 <pikhq> Seems a bit overdone for a comparatively simple program.
03:20:31 <pikhq> A whole compiler can't be done in Yacc.
03:21:15 <pikhq> Although it may *use* Yacc to parse, as I imagine GNU bc does. . .
03:21:23 <pikhq> The moment you start using stuff in Flex. ;)
03:23:16 <bsmntbombdood> and yacc can't be used without writing the actions in C, so nothing can be strictly completely written in yacc
03:24:09 <pikhq> And since Yacc is a *parser generator*, even if you could, it'd not actually get any compilation done.
03:25:25 <pikhq> Yacc only generates a parser. . .
03:25:52 <pikhq> That's not all that's in a compiler.
03:26:10 <pikhq> You neglect this funny thing called "code generation".
03:26:10 <bsmntbombdood> the parser doesn't need to be sepperate from the code generator
03:26:17 <pikhq> It is with yacc. . .
03:39:22 * pikhq decides to learn Yacc
03:39:44 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't understand the advantage to yacc at all in comparison with writing the parser by hand- parsing isn't one of the difficult aspects of writing a compiler at all
03:40:29 <RodgerTheGreat> I suppose it could *become* useful with arbitrarily complex grammars, but you'd have something hideous by the time you hit the break even point, I think.
03:45:49 <RodgerTheGreat> tokenization is straightforward, relying primarily on defining patterns that determine certain types of tokens and scanning forward, with some minor exceptions for nesting. Building parse trees is basically just error-checking and order of operations.
03:50:19 <RodgerTheGreat> there are a lot of aspects of compiler design and implementation that are really difficult (especially when the language doesn't help), but I really can't find anything in parsing that can hold a candle to the other stuff.
03:53:01 <pikhq> Realise that I wrote a compiler without knowing how to do a parser. ;)
03:54:33 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: that's my point exactly- it's more or less trivial
03:55:16 <RodgerTheGreat> if an average hacker can reinvent something without undue difficulty, it's trivial.
03:55:50 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: No, I mean "I didn't even do a parser".
03:56:04 <pikhq> My "parser" in PEBBLE is Tcl's source command.
03:56:34 <pikhq> One must admit, it works pretty well.
03:57:45 <pikhq> int c = getchar ();
03:58:00 <pikhq> Out of *immense* curiosity, how could that involve an invalid lvalue?
04:05:21 <bsmntbombdood> pikhq: because your compiler is expressing its displeasure at your use of spaces
04:05:56 <RodgerTheGreat> that is an unusual way to apply whitespace to a function call
04:06:28 <pikhq> Sorry; that's the GNU indentation standard; kinda start thinking in it when I start flipping through GNU manuals.
04:07:17 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_coding_standards
04:07:19 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm gonna have to side with bsmntbombdood with this one
04:07:57 <RodgerTheGreat> christ, that's like a laundry list of all the coding style points I have distaste for
04:08:36 <RodgerTheGreat> spaces-as-tabs, spaces before function parameter blocks, /* oneliner comments like this */
04:09:50 <RodgerTheGreat> // comments should always be used for oneliners, but if I recall, ANSI C lacks those.
04:10:20 <pikhq> *Modern* ANSI C has it; GNU tries to maintain some level of backwards compatibility with older standards and K&R C.
04:18:25 <RodgerTheGreat> different prog, but I think this code represents my coding style pretty well: http://nonlogic.org/dump/text/1189566634.html
04:22:15 <RodgerTheGreat> all curly-bracket languages are equal when it comes to coding style.
04:54:23 * pikhq has done his first program via Yacc & Flex. . .
05:16:42 <lament> ^-- a sample program in a curly-bracket language
05:17:25 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
05:35:25 -!- fizzie has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
07:09:56 -!- sebbu has joined.
07:22:20 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
07:42:34 -!- pikhq has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:21:50 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
08:22:37 -!- pikhq has joined.
09:01:43 -!- RedDak has joined.
09:31:22 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection).
09:40:33 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
11:24:19 -!- ehird` has joined.
11:25:34 -!- ehird` has quit (Client Quit).
11:41:08 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
11:47:51 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
11:56:39 -!- ehird`_ has joined.
12:05:48 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit ("using sirc version 2.211").
12:07:16 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
12:07:42 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
12:08:19 -!- ehird`_ has changed nick to ehird`.
12:13:26 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection).
12:35:22 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
12:41:12 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
12:48:35 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
12:59:50 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
13:21:37 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
13:21:54 -!- pikhq has joined.
13:31:58 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
13:32:43 -!- oklopol has joined.
13:50:21 <oklopol> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_instruction_minimalization <<< @ notes, doesn't "; [<,>]@[<.>@]" loop endlessly @ input?
14:19:14 -!- jix has joined.
14:36:57 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:48:41 <ihope> maybe eat clothespins nooga
14:51:34 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
14:51:45 -!- jix has joined.
15:19:12 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
15:20:07 <ihope> Rather like calamari.
15:22:55 <bsmntbombdood> My orders say I'm not supposed to know where I'm taking this boat, so I don't. But one look at you, and I know it's gonna be hot.
15:46:13 <sp3tt> I think the formatting language of my mpd client will be turing complete
15:46:24 <sp3tt> You don't need loops to be turing complete, right?
15:54:19 <oklopol> if you run it on something superturing, it can be loopless
15:55:02 <sp3tt> The interpreter is in python.
15:55:24 <sp3tt> It's a stack based language to format playlists, overkill? No
16:07:59 <ihope> I think to be Turing complete, you have to be able to translate any Turing program into that language.
16:09:11 <ihope> I'm not sure just how the resulting program has to act...
16:10:09 <ihope> I think that if the original program halts, you must be able to find that out by running the resulting program, and if the original program halts, you must *not* be able to find that it halts by running the resulting program.
16:10:55 <ihope> I'd like to see a description of this language.
16:29:14 <lament> sp3tt: loops are just something some imperative languages have.
16:29:57 <oklopol> i assumed he meant the concept of looping
16:30:11 <oklopol> and not an actual "while" etc.
16:33:16 <lament> i'm not sure in what sence does lambda calculus have "the concept of looping"
16:34:03 <oklopol> through an abstraction the programmer has created...
16:34:18 <oklopol> but i guess that might be a bad term for it.
16:36:10 <lament> i suppose in any language with side effects, you could define an "infinite loop" as something that performs some sequence of actions over and over again infinitely.
16:36:23 <lament> in that sense, you can have infinite loops in unlambda and haskell.
16:37:28 <lament> if your language can't do that, it's definitely not turing-complete.
16:38:37 <oklopol> hmm... so if you made unlambda return v instead everytime you're in an infinite loop, it wouldn't be turing complete?
16:38:52 <oklopol> i mean, theoretically speaking, since that's impossible to know
16:50:19 <SimonRC> oklopol: no, the detection system would be superturing
16:50:59 <oklopol> no, BECAUSE the detection system would be superturing?
16:52:02 <oklopol> indeed, that language would naturally be superturing
16:52:12 <SimonRC> I was responding to "16:38:01 < oklopol> hmm... so if you" .... "it wouldn't be turing complete?"
16:53:22 <oklopol> because lament said, i think, that a language can't be turing complete if it can't loop infinitely
16:53:59 <oklopol> but i guess it can only either be less than tc, or superturing, if it does that
17:11:25 <ehird`> sp3tt: mpd client.... commandline? qt?
17:19:47 <bsmntbombdood> what's a major global problem facing our planet as we move into the 21st ccentury
17:20:17 <g4lt-sb100> humanity, we must kill off all humanity
17:25:32 <SimonRC> solution: less anthopology, more apthropophagy!
17:26:15 <bsmntbombdood> i need a reputable source that says that if i'm going to do it
17:28:02 <g4lt-sb100> the population bomb, written in 1968, by Paul Erlich. it states we should resort to cannibalism in like three or four years from now
18:23:50 <ihope> Is there not enough food?
18:24:13 <ihope> How is overpopulation a problem?
18:25:07 <ihope> bsmntbombdood: is that a question for your geography class?
18:37:01 <ehird`> ihope: what do you mean, how is overpopulation a problem
18:53:12 -!- GregorR has changed nick to behypercubed.
18:56:55 -!- behypercubed has changed nick to _D6Gregor1RFeZi.
19:41:13 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:13:13 -!- cherez has joined.
21:35:04 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:49:56 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
22:00:12 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
22:10:46 <oerjan> no! that cannot be! no way!
22:10:56 <ihope> So how is it a problem?
23:00:54 -!- Tritonio has joined.
23:16:25 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:19:41 -!- Tritonio has joined.
23:21:08 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:22:09 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:06:40 -!- cherez has quit ("Leaving.").
00:20:36 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
00:27:33 -!- ehird` has quit.
01:18:53 -!- ihope has joined.
02:03:05 * ihope delays bsmntbombdood's mercury lines
02:04:27 * oerjan is disappointed this isn't about a new invention in the Mercury language
02:05:14 <oerjan> although i guess it _could_ have been about astrology
02:06:36 <ihope> Mercury is a language?
02:06:46 <ihope> (I thought it was about the metal!)
02:07:11 <bsmntbombdood> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_%28programming_language%29
02:11:27 <ihope> "Mercury is a functional logic programming language geared towards real-world applications."
02:11:38 <ihope> I guess there are programming languages geared toward other applications.
02:11:42 <ihope> (Surprise, surprise!)
02:12:29 <ihope> The real world is massively parallel.
02:12:40 <ihope> I don't think that qualifies as "imperative".
02:13:48 <ihope> Here, have a couple more non-geared-toward-real-world programming languages: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Language_list
02:14:46 <pikhq> Most programs used in the real world are imperative, however.
02:14:49 <oerjan> haskell has always had real world applications as one of its goals
02:15:02 <pikhq> (and, of course, in languages badly suited towards parallel processing)
02:17:30 <ihope> We really need to better exploit all this parallelness.
02:19:35 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
02:20:04 <pikhq> We're at a point where 8 independent processors would cost you a good $400, after all.
02:20:30 <pikhq> (IIRC, that would be the pricing for 2 Barcelona Opterons with 4 cores each) ;)
02:24:07 <bsmntbombdood> i think you are vastly underestimating the cost of opterons
02:25:05 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819105038
02:25:45 <pikhq> It's the 4/8-way Opterons that are pricy.
02:26:39 <pikhq> And even then, they come in at about the price range of Intel's higher-priced desktop chips.
02:27:02 <pikhq> The Intel server chips are just gouging.
02:27:45 <pikhq> Most expensive Xeon is $1,3990.
03:15:17 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
03:36:55 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection).
04:16:32 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
04:28:14 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out).
04:35:29 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> Damn, another fix: /\(([^\/\)]*\/([^\\\/]*\\.)*[^\\\/]*\/)*[^\/\)]*\)/
04:38:09 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit.
04:46:14 <pikhq> And soon he'll mangle you more.
04:51:08 <pikhq> That's just insane.
04:51:17 <pikhq> Can't wait to play with it.
04:51:21 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> I need an example runtime grammar, so it'll be clear that it's not as insane as you think :)
04:52:04 <pikhq> Still insane merely for having that *accesible*.
05:23:25 -!- SEO_DUDE32 has joined.
05:24:16 <pikhq> I need to be up in 7 hours or so.
05:32:01 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
05:34:17 -!- immibis has joined.
05:56:00 -!- immibis has quit ("Life without danger is a waste of oxygen").
06:34:43 -!- sp3tt has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:33:02 -!- helios24 has quit ("leaving").
08:33:09 -!- helios24 has joined.
11:30:43 -!- ehird` has joined.
12:41:24 -!- sebbu has joined.
13:00:23 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out).
13:18:46 -!- sp3tt has joined.
13:19:34 -!- sp3tt_ has joined.
13:28:46 -!- oerjan has joined.
14:34:16 -!- sp3tt_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:14:42 -!- jix has joined.
15:25:56 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: but you didn;t say it at 22:22:22
15:32:01 -!- pikhq has quit (Connection timed out).
15:36:40 -!- pikhq has joined.
15:59:29 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:03:46 -!- pikhq has joined.
16:36:55 -!- oerjan has quit ("Dinner").
17:35:43 <g4lt-sb100> so we have another dave2 in the making?
17:36:25 <g4lt-sb100> bsmntbombdoodse just doesn't sound the same
17:38:01 <g4lt-sb100> another channel, some dude announces certain times
17:42:20 <SimonRC> g4lt-sb100: not as good as the StriB-clock
17:42:46 <SimonRC> there is a guy called StriB, whose case changes to match the hour in binary
17:43:04 <SimonRC> strib, striB, strIb, strIB, stRib, etc
17:44:12 <SimonRC> I proposed the SiMoNC-clock that did the same thing with the minutes, but decided not to, due to fear of lynching.
18:02:50 <SimonRC> ehird`: the IRC network would complain
18:03:18 -!- SimonRC has changed nick to SimonRC_18.
18:03:58 -!- SimonRC_18 has changed nick to SimonRC_20.
18:03:59 -!- SimonRC_20 has changed nick to SimonRC_22.
18:04:23 -!- SimonRC_22 has changed nick to SimonRC_45.
18:17:55 -!- importantshock has joined.
18:18:22 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has joined.
18:20:10 <ehird`> SimonRC_45: do it in binary
18:21:47 <ehird`> "sirc", it should tick 3.75
18:22:26 -!- importantshock has quit (Client Quit).
18:23:40 -!- importantshock has joined.
18:30:07 <bsmntbombdood> ~exec time.sleep((lambda x: 1 - (x - __import__("math").floor(x)))(time.time())) while True: sys.stdout(__import__("math").floor(time.time()))
18:31:21 -!- SEO_DUDE32 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:54:17 <ehird`> ~exec time.sleep( ( lambda x: 1 - (x - __import__("math").floor(x)) )( time.time() ) ); while True: sys.stdout(__import__("math").floor(time.time()))
18:54:31 <ehird`> ~exec time.sleep( ( lambda x: 1 - (x - __import__("math").floor(x)) )( time.time() ) ) and exec 'while True: sys.stdout(__import__("math").floor(time.time()))'
18:55:12 <ehird`> ~exec time.sleep((lambda x: 1 - x - __import__("math").floor(x))(time.time())); while True: sys.stdout(__import__("math").floor(time.time()))
18:55:14 <ehird`> ~exec time.sleep((lambda x: 1 - x - __import__("math").floor(x))(time.time())); while True: sys.stdout(__import__("math").floor(time.time())))
18:55:19 <ehird`> ~exec time.sleep((lambda x: 1 - x - __import__("math").floor(x))(time.time())); while True: sys.stdout(__import__("math").floor(time.time())))))))
18:55:26 <ehird`> ~exec time.sleep((lambda x: 1 - x - __import__("math").floor(x))(time.time())); while True: sys.stdout(__import__("math").floor(time.time()))
18:55:28 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Excess Flood).
18:55:34 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined.
18:55:41 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: time.sleep((lambda x: 1 - x - __import__("math").floor(x))(time.time())); while True: sys.stdout(__import__("math").floor(time.time()))
18:55:54 <ehird`> ~exec while True: time.sleep((lambda x: 1 - x - __import__("math").floor(x))(time.time())); sys.stdout(__import__("math").floor(time.time()))
18:55:54 <bsmnt_bot> IOError: [Errno 22] Invalid argument
18:56:01 <ehird`> ~exec while True: time.sleep((lambda x: 1 - x - __import__("math").floor(x))(time.time())); sys.stdout(str(__import__("math").floor(time.time())))
18:56:01 <bsmnt_bot> IOError: [Errno 22] Invalid argument
18:56:10 <ehird`> ~exec while True: time.sleep((lambda x: 1 - x - __import__("math").floor(x))(time.time())); sys.stdout.write(str(__import__("math").floor(time.time())))
18:56:10 <bsmnt_bot> IOError: [Errno 22] Invalid argument
19:10:37 -!- SimonRC_45 has changed nick to SimonRC.
19:40:35 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:59:24 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
20:08:36 -!- RedDak has joined.
21:17:34 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:27:11 -!- importantshock has quit.
21:46:15 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
22:16:38 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:20:46 -!- importantshock has joined.
22:26:48 -!- importantshock has quit ("Meh.").
23:10:19 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:18:49 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:54:59 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: www.XLhost.de )").
23:57:31 -!- oklopol has joined.
00:03:53 <Sgeo> What you missed:
00:05:13 <oklopol> did i miss something coool?
00:06:06 <Sgeo> Nothing at all
00:06:11 <Sgeo> That's why I said <EOF>
00:06:49 <oklopol> i completely missed "(Sgeo) What you missed:" this line
00:07:07 <oklopol> which is quite a feat considering there were 3 lines on the screen...
00:07:33 <oerjan> so in fact Sgeo was mistaken about what you missed :D
00:13:55 -!- importantshock has joined.
00:14:19 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> "Right. So I'm hemophallic." "... did you just say hemo-phallic?" "Uh ... yes? I'll admit it, I have blood in my penis right now."
00:17:19 <oerjan> that does not sound like the best pickup line ever
00:20:33 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> I'm totally using that as a pickup line next time I get the chance :P
00:35:15 -!- ehird` has quit.
00:44:29 -!- importantshock has quit ("Meh.").
01:21:17 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat").
02:33:20 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has joined.
03:21:06 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection).
03:32:48 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
03:33:02 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
03:34:17 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has joined.
04:04:22 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit.
04:54:48 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
05:31:44 -!- rutlov has joined.
05:38:44 -!- rutlov has left (?).
05:54:09 -!- immibis has joined.
06:11:30 -!- PerfectElu has joined.
06:13:49 -!- PerfectElu has left (?).
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:19:46 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
08:47:25 -!- RedDak has joined.
09:07:54 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
09:12:57 -!- pikhq has joined.
09:44:59 -!- jix has joined.
10:22:00 -!- immibis has quit ("Man who run behind car get exhausted").
11:52:33 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
12:05:45 -!- ehird` has joined.
12:17:19 -!- ehird`_ has joined.
12:17:58 -!- ehird`_ has quit (Client Quit).
12:17:59 -!- ehird` has quit (No route to host).
12:26:16 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
12:30:34 -!- ehird` has joined.
12:45:41 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
13:17:38 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
13:52:57 -!- pikhq has joined.
13:57:32 -!- RedDak has joined.
14:17:09 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:17:39 -!- oerjan has joined.
14:17:58 -!- puzzlet has joined.
14:52:08 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
14:52:22 -!- jix has joined.
14:55:29 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:00:55 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:01:23 -!- ehird` has joined.
16:21:58 -!- ehird` has quit ("Pong timeout").
16:22:12 -!- ehird` has joined.
16:55:06 <oklopol> i was 5th in the finnish national competition
16:58:16 <oerjan> oklopol: does that mean you get to go to the IMO? :)
17:01:48 <oklopol> i would've gotten there prolly, but i forgot to go to a training camp that was kinda essential
17:02:42 <oklopol> i haven't really done any math in my life, i may be clever but you do need to know a LOT of stuff to do well in the IMO
17:02:47 <oklopol> if IMO is what follows it..
17:03:08 <oerjan> International Mathematical Olympiad
17:03:51 <oklopol> i know the guy who won it, owns me easy as hell
17:04:19 <oklopol> i'm far better at programming though, even though he's been a programmer longer than me
17:05:34 <oklopol> i've actually missed 2 math competition finals :P
17:05:53 <oklopol> the other was for ...mental calculation or whatever you call it
17:06:46 <oerjan> calculating big numbers in your head?
17:07:39 <oklopol> had to turn my calculator in for the ram to be erased, so http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p312111352.txt wrote my games on the comp :P
17:08:11 <oklopol> oerjan: the funny thing is i haven't actually learned any techniques, there just simply isn't anyone who has ANY skill in this town :|
17:08:28 <oklopol> because i sure as hell don't
17:09:36 <oklopol> i'm not sure why i wrote those down, prolly won't write them back on my ti-84 anyway
17:09:55 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: math, since i didn't answer, it seems
17:10:13 <oerjan> i am confused, was a calculator allowed on the competition?
17:10:36 <oklopol> sorry, this is unrelated :D
17:10:44 <oklopol> i have a physics exam on monday
17:10:56 <oklopol> the math competition was a loooong time ago
17:11:26 <oklopol> the competition didn't require a calculator...
17:11:53 <oerjan> i would imagine a mental calculation one wouldn't allow one
17:12:13 <oklopol> the mental calculation one was in elementary school...
17:12:48 <oklopol> i was also in the finals in the elementary school real math competition
17:12:57 * oerjan recalls other kids asking him to do math in his head, long ago
17:12:59 <bsmntbombdood> "turku, finland -- oklopol was seen at an elementary school's math bee, where 3rd graders answered questions such as "what is the product of 4 and 3?", and "what is the square root of 16?".
17:13:00 <oklopol> in high school was when i forgot to go
17:13:25 <oerjan> square root? advanced stuff
17:13:46 <oklopol> i remember teaching square roots to a friend @ first grade :D
17:14:12 <bsmntbombdood> "the police was called and he was arrested for trespassing."
17:14:48 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: i prefer telling it my way :P
17:15:58 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure i'd've won the finals @ the elementary school competition, top10 was on a very small range, but the second part of the test consisted of folding paper...
17:16:06 <oerjan> ah, the National Enquirer?
17:16:21 <oerjan> or the Weekly World News?
17:17:35 <oklopol> i was thinking i'd learn math this fall, would be nice to get to the finals
17:27:01 <oklopol> i should actually be doing physics right now...
17:27:18 <oklopol> but i guess i have a whole night ahead me
17:30:54 -!- oerjan has quit ("Supper").
18:03:10 <RodgerTheGreat> stack of graded papers == I get paid, so I think I win
18:06:24 <oklopol> my parents are gone all day every day!
18:06:51 <oklopol> but my gf decided to stay home and sleep instead of coming here :P
18:10:12 <RodgerTheGreat> the internet is a lousy place to get sympathy for that type of thing.
18:10:44 <oklopol> well i know multiple girls..
18:11:39 <oklopol> so let's not jump into conclusions
18:12:16 <oklopol> i should have a script to press enter if i forget to
18:14:29 <oklopol> onless i start using periods
18:14:38 <oklopol> so it knows whether the sentence is ready
18:14:48 <oklopol> i could start using enter, though
18:14:50 <RodgerTheGreat> _D6Gregor1RFeZi: on an unrelated note, has your nick contracted cancer or something?
18:15:17 <oklopol> _D6Gregor1RFeZi: is "haw" "here"?
18:16:43 <oklopol> period as in menstruation, was that what you were referring to? i have no idea where the joke was :P
18:17:04 <oklopol> since i don't know what "haw" is, guess i could look it up...
18:17:32 <oklopol> terrible jokes are usually the best
18:18:00 <RodgerTheGreat> "haw" generally acts in a similar fashion to "ha" or "heh"
18:18:38 <oklopol> "is already using periods", and then the menstruation thing?
18:19:57 <oklopol> yes, well, you aren't an idiot
18:20:38 <RodgerTheGreat> "unless I start using periods to know when ... [it] is ready" "YOUR GIRLFRIEND IS ALREADY. HAHAHA."
18:21:12 <RodgerTheGreat> it's a joke based on the same word being used to refer to a punctuation mark and menstruation.
18:22:00 <RodgerTheGreat> this channel never ceases to produce hilariously pedantic discussions like this, eh?
18:24:17 <pikhq> What else would you expect from us?
18:36:53 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> oklopol just left another clear opening for a terrible joke, and nobody jumped in :P
18:38:21 <oklopol> i thought it was already a joke :P
18:38:34 <oklopol> but i guess it needed some clearing up
18:40:19 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> I did that by tearing the hard disk's cable entirely in two.
18:40:20 <pikhq> Why'd you want a swallowable PC?
18:42:55 <RodgerTheGreat> _D6Gregor1RFeZi: is that what the service manual said to do, or were you taking it apart with your claws and teeth or something?
18:43:15 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> RodgerTheGreat: The hard disk was glued into the slot. I was trying to pry it open.
18:43:35 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> RodgerTheGreat: As it turns out, the feeling of peeling glue is incredibly similar to the feeling of ripping a cable.
18:44:02 <RodgerTheGreat> any reason in particular for taking out the drive? Upgrade?
18:44:16 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> It didn't come with an OS and has no peripheral disk drives.
18:44:27 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> So the only way to get an OS on there was to remove the hard disk and install it via my desktop.
18:44:38 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> Which was exactly what I was anticipating doing, minus the destruction.
18:44:45 <RodgerTheGreat> and I'd imagine this process just became more complicated
18:45:07 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> As it turns out, a new cable is more expensive than a replacement :P
18:45:49 <RodgerTheGreat> can you show us a link to what the machine looks like?
18:50:59 <RodgerTheGreat> haha- great bash: "<Ubik> speaking of Jenga, it's the 1-year anniversery of 9/11 tomorrow"
19:00:20 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:00:26 -!- oklopol has joined.
19:04:33 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:11:54 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:12:43 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:27:12 <ehird`> _D6Gregor1RFeZi: why are you Dized?
19:42:43 -!- sebbu has joined.
19:45:03 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has joined.
19:58:41 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:01:37 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:25:02 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has joined.
20:33:09 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:43:01 -!- ihope has joined.
20:48:19 -!- RedDak has joined.
21:41:09 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:50:11 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has joined.
21:54:09 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:54:46 -!- Grognor has joined.
21:55:52 -!- Grognor has left (?).
22:08:45 -!- RedDak has joined.
22:38:58 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:40:05 -!- RedDak has joined.
22:44:14 -!- immibis has joined.
23:50:53 -!- ehird` has quit.
00:09:52 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:40:04 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:51:17 -!- immibis has quit ("On the other hand, you have different fingers.").
01:03:09 <bsmntbombdood> http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2007/09/the_perspex_machine_superturin.php
01:03:22 <bsmntbombdood> it's superturing because it can be extended to hold reals?
01:03:39 <bsmntbombdood> uhh...how bout you extend a turing machine to hold a real in each cell instead of a symbol?
01:04:01 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+").
01:14:02 -!- immibis has joined.
01:20:29 <oerjan> well then you would have made a super-turing machine, obviously :)
01:26:36 <pikhq> All in favor of implementing a Perspex Machine emulator on a Turing machine, in the name of proving him more wrong?
01:27:59 <pikhq> Wait. . . He argues that a Turing machine can't even *hold* a real?
01:28:14 <pikhq> It's got an infinite amount of space. It can hold an infinite amount of reals.
01:28:33 <oerjan> well it cannot. memory is finite at any given time.
01:29:03 <pikhq> oerjan: A universal Turing machine has infinite memory.
01:29:22 <oerjan> no, it has infinitely _extensible_ memory
01:29:41 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> You can't process an irrational number because doing so puts you into an infinite loop.
01:29:52 <pikhq> Well, there is that. . .
01:30:43 <pikhq> Of course, an infinity machine could easily emulate a perspex machine. ;)
01:30:51 <pikhq> (but not the other way around. :D)
01:33:32 <pikhq> (of course, the infinity machine, unlike the perspex machine, was designed as more of a thought experiment)
01:38:38 -!- ihope_ has joined.
01:40:15 -!- immibis has changed nick to immibis[A].
01:43:46 <ihope_> Turing machines can sort of deal with real numbers.
01:44:29 <oerjan> only countably many of them...
01:44:55 <ihope_> Give me a real number that a Turing machine cannot handle. :-P
01:45:28 <ihope_> Doesn't sound like a real number to me.
01:45:50 <ihope_> Chaitin's constant or whatever?
01:46:48 <ihope_> g4lt-sb100: I think 2^.5 is firmly within the realm of computability.
01:47:21 <oerjan> indeed, an algebraic number
01:47:48 <oerjan> no one has mentioned polynomial time, or digits for that matter
01:52:50 <ihope_> I guess handling real numbers is sort of the same as handling sets of rational numbers.
01:53:24 -!- immibis[A] has changed nick to immibis.
01:53:29 <ihope_> That is, the sets that contain some rational numbers but not others,
01:54:39 <ihope_> That is, the bounded, non-empty, downward closed sets of rational numbers that do not have maxima.
01:55:02 <bsmntbombdood> a turing machine can't decide if two real numbers are equal
01:55:17 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out).
01:55:52 <ihope_> Well, there's no way you can even give a Turing machine any two real numbers.
01:56:50 <oerjan> my impression is that a computable real is a function which given a bound will calculate a rational that lies within that distance of the real, or an equivalent
01:57:05 -!- immibis has left (?).
01:58:13 <oerjan> say, a decreasing sequence of intervals
01:59:26 <ihope_> Or a function that compares the real number to its argument?
01:59:53 <oerjan> nope, you cannot do that because if they are equal it might not be provable
02:01:20 <oerjan> you need some slack in the questions you ask :)
02:01:32 -!- calamari has joined.
02:02:16 <oerjan> say, you could pass it two different arguments and it would answer either that it was largest than the smallest or smaller than the largest
02:04:54 <oerjan> strangely you can also ask it for a correctly rounded printout to some number of digits - as long as you allow it to possibly give one more digit than you ask for
02:19:36 <oerjan> er, the function itself should be computable
02:21:57 * ihope_ attempts to find something similar to irreal numbers
02:22:36 <oerjan> you mean surreal, or something else?
02:38:41 <ihope_> Something like surreal.
02:39:20 <ihope_> You fill in the rational numbers with the irrational numbers. You fill in the real numbers with... nothing.
02:41:38 <oerjan> rationals are people^H^H^H^H^H^Hreals too
02:42:04 <ihope_> The imaginary numbers aren't the sort of filling-in I was thinking of.
02:42:32 <oerjan> well, the reals _are_ complete. have you looked at nonstandard analysis?
02:42:38 <ihope_> I was thinking the LUBs of sets of real numbers. These are, of course, also real numbers.
02:43:15 <g4lt-sb100> soylernt rationals are people, you must tell them, soylent rationals are PEOPLE
02:43:35 * pikhq just saw that movie a few days ago for the first time, BTW
02:43:39 <oerjan> you add new reals by passing to a larger model of the same axioms
02:44:51 <oerjan> using something called ultraproducts, iirc
02:45:08 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: A turing machine could actually tell you if two real numbers were not equal, though. ;)
02:45:42 <pikhq> (this assumes a way to store the real number is devised. . . :p)
02:45:44 <oerjan> _if_ two computable real numbers were not equal, it could tell you.
02:46:07 <oerjan> note the subtle lack of requirement to tell you if they are
02:46:07 <pikhq> Which, of course, is why I said that.
02:46:32 <bsmntbombdood> but it's not very usefull to know if two numbers are equal if you already know they are
02:52:10 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
02:52:23 -!- jix has joined.
04:12:23 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
04:22:25 -!- Sgeo has joined.
05:20:55 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
05:22:00 -!- ehird` has joined.
05:22:41 -!- ehird` has quit (Client Quit).
05:33:20 -!- immibis has joined.
05:37:06 <EgoBot> 1 immibis: daemon cat bf
05:37:07 <EgoBot> 2 immibis: daemon annoyimmibis bf
05:41:18 <EgoBot> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cat ~exec self.raw"PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi"")
05:41:31 <EgoBot> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cat ~exec self.raw\"PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi\"")
05:41:32 <bsmnt_bot> !cat ~exec self.raw"PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi"
05:41:35 <EgoBot> ~exec self.raw"PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi"
05:41:50 <EgoBot> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cat ~exec self.raw(\"PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi\")")
05:41:50 <bsmnt_bot> !cat ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi")
05:41:54 <EgoBot> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi")
05:43:49 <ihope_> Doesn't seem to do much.
05:50:06 <immibis> "!annoyimmibis yyy" is the same as "/msg immibis yyy" except that then the message comes from EgoBot
05:50:56 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
05:50:57 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
06:08:56 <pikhq> !annoyimmibis Does this annoy people in chat, too?
06:09:17 <immibis> [17:08] <EgoBot> Does this annoy people in chat, too?
06:09:23 <EgoBot> [17:08] <EgoBot> Does this annoy people in chat, too?
06:09:29 <immibis> !annoyimmibis are you sure?
06:10:53 <immibis> !annoyimmibis yadayadayada
06:14:02 -!- ihope_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
06:19:08 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has joined.
06:21:27 -!- immibis has left (?).
07:08:26 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving").
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
09:11:57 -!- sebbu has joined.
10:01:36 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
10:17:28 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has joined.
11:29:56 -!- ehird` has joined.
11:34:31 -!- ihope_ has joined.
11:34:48 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to ihope.
11:46:52 -!- RedDak has joined.
11:47:48 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
11:51:03 -!- ehird` has joined.
12:04:24 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
12:09:53 -!- jix has joined.
12:10:47 -!- ehird`_ has joined.
12:11:44 -!- ehird` has quit (No route to host).
12:46:17 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
13:09:20 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has joined.
14:00:09 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:36:14 -!- oerjan has joined.
14:39:18 -!- ehird`_ has quit (Client Quit).
14:39:24 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
14:39:41 -!- ehird` has joined.
14:41:40 -!- ehird` has quit (Client Quit).
14:41:53 -!- ehird` has joined.
14:43:44 <oerjan> hm, or should that be plutonian?
14:45:09 <oerjan> google says 7 to 6 for plutonian
14:52:16 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
14:52:27 -!- jix has joined.
15:26:12 -!- xlq has joined.
15:26:22 -!- xlq has left (?).
15:52:37 -!- RedDak has joined.
16:52:47 -!- skull_fcked has joined.
16:57:24 -!- skull_fcked has left (?).
17:02:14 -!- oerjan has quit ("Dinner").
17:29:28 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
18:49:54 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("haaaaaaaaaa").
19:05:38 * SimonRC got to the british summer school for the IMO one year
19:06:58 <oklopol> what a bunch of geniuses we are
19:11:05 <oklopol> i was bragging about my "success" in the finnish national math thingie
19:12:32 <SimonRC> (BTW, most of my maths class has a go at the first set of tests)
19:14:28 <oklopol> in high school i was the 5th, but i forgot to go to a ...camp or something
19:14:43 <oklopol> that was to pick out the guys for the olympics
19:15:04 <RodgerTheGreat> my highschool did something resembling what you've described, although in this case we were allowed to use a calculator. I scored in the top %5 of my school, in many cases solving problems by writing programs instead of the "correct way". Then I got to go on to the second half based on my original score, but I felt pretty SOL without my beloved TI-83+
19:15:40 <oklopol> i had about 1.5 times more points than the next one in our school
19:15:49 <RodgerTheGreat> I actually got full points on one question there by writing out a TI-BASIC program that would generate the right answer and a detailed explanation of how it worked, which surprised me
19:16:25 <SimonRC> we are a lot of geniuses here...
19:17:23 <ihope> I like Haskell and wish my calculator supported it.
19:17:58 <SimonRC> ihope: use Forth. it has oomph
19:18:04 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:18:57 <oerjan> wind, rain, cold, darkness, instant depression.
19:19:29 <SimonRC> ihope: Forth is just the thing for interactive development on small systems
19:19:43 <SimonRC> oerjan: and I like some of them
19:20:00 <SimonRC> You calculators is more powerful than many early Forth systems
19:20:08 -!- ehird` has quit ("Pong timeout").
19:20:39 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: in case you don't read logs and know basic, take a look at my games TI :P http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p312111352.txt
19:21:10 <SimonRC> oerjan: why all the colons?
19:21:13 <oklopol> pong was a 2 hour project, the worm thingie 3 hours, but i didn't know the language yet
19:23:07 <oklopol> hmm... gotta go read some physics, been meaning to go for about 2 days, y'all have fun here ->
19:25:57 <oklopol> god i'm bad at leaving the computer.
19:26:20 <oklopol> guess the fact i don't care about physics might have something to do with it
19:26:52 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: if you find anything i could've done better, don't hesitate to tell me
19:27:08 <oklopol> i just know the basics from trial-and-error
19:28:09 -!- ehird` has joined.
19:28:56 <RodgerTheGreat> for example, in a function call like :Pxl-On(I,21), you can leave off the end ), and the interpreter doesn't complain
19:30:28 <RodgerTheGreat> also, single if statements can be compressed from If condition:Then:statement:End into "If condition:statement"
19:30:39 <RodgerTheGreat> that only works when your conditional controls a oneliner
19:30:54 <SimonRC> oh, man, sometimes things just happen that you couldn't do deliberately...
19:31:03 <RodgerTheGreat> basically, TI-BASIC's If takes the form of "If not condition, skip next instruction"
19:31:34 <SimonRC> elsenet, there was a discussion on how to improve masturbation. Some guy comes in, and before anyone says anything, quotes the Beatles: "All you need it love".
19:32:06 -!- ehird` has quit (Client Quit).
19:32:08 <SimonRC> I would put it on bash, except maybe my parents should not see it
19:33:09 -!- ehird` has joined.
19:33:35 <RodgerTheGreat> You could probably reduce those programs in size between 10 and 20%, and they'd execute a little faster
19:33:42 -!- ehird` has quit (Client Quit).
19:34:26 -!- ehird` has joined.
19:36:27 -!- ehird` has quit (Client Quit).
19:36:45 -!- ehird` has joined.
19:37:17 -!- ehird` has quit (Client Quit).
19:39:31 -!- ehird` has joined.
19:40:14 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: switching-to-a-new-client issues
19:40:35 <ehird`> specifically, getting Linkinus to realise that yes, damnit, you can connect there
19:40:42 <ehird`> and that yes, damnit, you can autoidentify me
19:41:45 <ehird`> specifically, GOD WHY DON'T YOU KNOW HOW TO USE NICKSERV LINKINUS
19:41:47 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:42:09 <oerjan> it doesn't do server passwords?
19:42:56 <oerjan> then the client tells the server, which tells nickserv, iiuc
19:43:37 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:44:17 <oerjan> also, that doesn't work if you keep a reference to the start of [1,1..]
19:47:14 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:48:57 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: sorry, was making snacks
19:50:48 <oklopol> i was wondering what the fuck was up with that :D
19:50:59 <oklopol> but indeed, because you can do oneliners
19:57:54 -!- SEO_DUDE55 has joined.
19:59:51 -!- SEO_DUDE75 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:00:42 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
20:02:29 -!- ehird` has joined.
20:03:10 <ehird`> maybe NOW it will work!!!!!
20:05:56 <oerjan> you're identified, at least
20:11:57 -!- ehird` has quit.
20:15:18 -!- ehird` has joined.
20:15:50 -!- ehird` has quit (Client Quit).
20:16:44 -!- ehird` has joined.
20:16:48 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:17:05 -!- ehird` has joined.
20:17:07 <oerjan> well, so much for that theory.
20:17:37 <ehird`> colloquy is /almost/ better than this
20:18:31 <g4lt-sb100> I never said it was pretty, I just said it works
20:20:16 <g4lt-sb100> remember, form FOLLOWS functionality, meaning it's about as worthless as teats on a boar hog without functionality
20:27:38 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
20:29:56 <ehird`> g4lt-sb100: linkinius IS very functional... its just buggy :p
20:30:01 <ehird`> thankfully i seem to have fixed all that
20:31:17 * ehird` has quit (Connection reset bbbby I$&A%$"X
20:38:14 -!- RedDak has joined.
20:54:57 <ihope> Time to implement something!
20:56:15 <ihope> That parser programming language thing. I think I'll call it Redivider.
20:57:20 * ihope sifts through pastebin.ca posts
20:58:30 <ihope> I guess this is the most recent one: http://pastebin.ca/679421
20:59:19 <ihope> Suddenly, I feel like playing a game instead. :-P
21:09:36 <ihope> Hmm, yes, I could do that.
21:12:34 <ihope> And here, have a weird writing system: "H. M. M-y. E. S-i c. O. U. L. D d. O t. H. A. T"
21:13:13 <ihope> Sentences are concatenated, so if I wanted to say that twice for some reason, it'd be "H. M. M-y. E. S-i c. O. U. L. D d. O t. H. A. Th. M. M-y. E. S-i c. O. U. L. D d. O t. H. A. T"
21:13:41 <ehird`> i don't get the system behind that writing system
21:14:25 <ihope> "fo" becomes "f. o" and vice versa; "f-o" becomes "f, o" and vice versa; "f o" remains "f o".
21:14:57 <ihope> Except capitalization is correctified. :-P
21:15:17 <ihope> How often is that used?
21:15:58 <ihope> Unless you're writing numbers, which this doesn't support :-)
21:16:14 <ehird`> HMM, yES, i cOULD dO tHAT
21:16:24 <ehird`> so why did you mess up capitalization like that
21:16:48 <ihope> This way, every "sentence" has exactly one capital letter, which is at the beginning.
21:17:50 <oerjan> J. U. S. T t. O b. E w. E. I. R. D-I a. S. S. U. M. E
21:18:07 <ihope> ("Sentence" meaning something like "S-i c.")
21:19:07 <ihope> Y. E. S-e. X. A. C. T. L. Y
21:19:45 <ihope> Maybe it should instead be "fo" <-> "f. o"; "f o" <-> "f, o".
21:20:12 <ehird`> Hello world -> H. e. l. l. oW. o. r. l. d
21:20:32 <ihope> Not "H. E. L. L. Ow. O. R. L. D"?
21:20:50 <ihope> (Hell. Ow. O RLD?)
21:21:07 <oerjan> itym "H. E. L. L. O w. O. R. L. D"
21:21:54 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: this is #esoteric
21:26:44 <ihope> Or ""H. E. L. L. O, w. O. R. L. D""
21:37:56 <ihope> (Modulo number of quotation marks.)
22:21:07 <oerjan> it's TURTLES all the way down, but we IGNORE them!
22:33:59 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:36:12 -!- immibis has joined.
22:42:55 -!- immibis has left (?).
22:58:52 <g4lt-sb100> tehre's a channel for that kind of talk, mister
23:01:51 <ihope> We's no sense-makers!
23:08:00 <ihope> Yeah, totally, dude.
23:10:43 <pikhq> There are three velociraptors in an equilateral triangle around you.
23:10:59 <bsmntbombdood> one has a wounded leg and runs slower than the others
23:11:21 <pikhq> Two can run at 30mph. One has a gimp leg, and runs at 15mph. Where should you head towards to live the longest?
23:12:09 <ihope> Does it depend on your speed?
23:12:26 <ihope> If I can run at c/2, just about any direction will do :-P
23:13:56 <ehird`> If you can run at c*2, that's just great since you can go and undo whatever you did to get yourself surrounded by velociraptors...
23:14:37 <g4lt-sb100> ihope, not only that, but relativistic mass means that the shouldr block you throw at one bewcomes MUCH more effective
23:15:06 <pikhq> Just run at a raptor if you hit c/2.
23:15:13 <ehird`> Veliocraptors run at exactly c.
23:15:18 <ehird`> So c/2 isn't good enough.
23:15:32 <pikhq> I doubt that we've got velociphotons.
23:15:56 * pikhq names a frequency the velociraptor frequency, where velociraptor waves are sent :p
23:15:58 <g4lt-sb100> ehird`, then your mass becomes aleph-2, easily enough to get the velociraptor out of the way
23:16:13 <ehird`> g4lt-sb100: Exactly! c*2 ftw.
23:16:23 * pikhq starts a velociraptor laser
23:16:24 <ehird`> pikhq: The slow baby velociraptors only run at c-1.
23:16:32 <ehird`> pikhq: But then they grow up to run at c.
23:16:34 <oerjan> you forgot one thing about relativistic mass. the velociraptor _also_ increases in mass relative to you
23:16:49 <oerjan> so a collision may not be well-advised
23:17:32 <oerjan> collisions at imaginary mass may not be well-understood yet
23:17:34 <ehird`> Undo whatever you did to run into the veliocraptors.
23:18:03 <ihope> How do the velociraptors act, exactly?
23:18:08 <ihope> Do they always run straight at you?
23:18:19 <oklopol> would be cool if c was 50 km/h
23:18:34 <oerjan> obviously, velociraptors read your mind
23:18:35 <ehird`> oklopol: c is obviously 88 mph
23:18:52 <oklopol> "uh, wasted a whole evening, well, i'll just go jogging and win back the time"
23:19:24 <oklopol> hmm, i'm pretty sure that's flawed logic somehow, but you get the joke :P
23:19:35 <ehird`> you could arrive somewhere before you left
23:19:42 <ehird`> "Hi! I'll arrive in about 5 minutes."
23:19:50 <ehird`> Second me: "I'll arrive in about 5 minutes."
23:19:54 <oklopol> that wouldn't mean you could get faster than c :|
23:19:55 <ehird`> Second me: "Oh hi, third me!"
23:19:57 <ehird`> .................................
23:20:04 <g4lt-sb100> oerjan, if velociraptors read my mind, they'd run AWAY
23:20:27 <ihope> If c were bigger, would the universe be bigger, too? :-P
23:20:37 <oerjan> g4lt-sb100: only if you are actually dangerous to them
23:21:36 <g4lt-sb100> oerjan, does recasting one of the hannibal lechter movies with them as the victim count as dangerous?
23:21:44 <ehird`> What kind of processing power does it take to simulate a very small (therefore spherical, so there's no edges), relativistic universe?
23:21:49 <ehird`> I'd think more than we have today
23:21:58 <oerjan> g4lt-sb100: only if you can actually do it
23:22:00 <ehird`> Very small as in like I dunno, 10 miles :P
23:22:44 <oklopol> ehird`: you mean with the physical laws we have now?
23:22:53 <g4lt-sb100> or "three velociraptors, which one of my seven guns do I draw for maximum bloodshed?"
23:22:55 <ehird`> oklopol: Maybe a simplified model of them. But yeah.
23:23:04 <oklopol> depends on the simplification :)
23:23:08 <ehird`> oklopol: Basically a relativistic universe with maybe even basic quantum mechanics
23:23:15 <ehird`> 10 km wide, let's say, and spherical
23:23:17 <oklopol> 10 miles to simulate == exactly 10 miles of computer...
23:23:22 <ehird`> How much processing power?
23:23:28 <oerjan> g4lt-sb100: good you are prepared
23:24:03 <oklopol> but unless you have a god to put the particles in the initial state right, you will have to use a much bigger comp of course
23:24:22 <oerjan> i think without an actual quantum computer, simulating a quantum system is exponential
23:24:36 <g4lt-sb100> oklopol, that would just be a simple FSM-seeding program
23:24:38 <ehird`> so basically itd require a hell of a lot of cpu, right
23:25:30 <g4lt-sb100> to seed your universe, they make seeding programs for FSMs now, one speecifically for life
23:26:10 <oklopol> by seeding, do you mean making the initial conditions?
23:26:40 <oklopol> because of the measurement problem
23:26:46 <oklopol> the name of which i don't know
23:27:01 <oklopol> (can't know speed & location simultaneously)
23:27:42 <oklopol> oh, haven't even heard that name
23:28:05 <g4lt-sb100> and that's only MEASURE. however, snsitivity to initial conditions means that if you blow one placeement, you get a vastly differig universe
23:28:54 <oklopol> not necessarily, just probably :)
23:29:14 <g4lt-sb100> and I think that the metastable universes are few and far between, you'd prolly have a dead universe in minutes in most cases
23:29:15 <oklopol> (i guess probably enough to say necessarily... i'll stop cutting hairs)
23:29:33 <oklopol> well depends on the rules of the automaton...
23:30:17 <oklopol> anyways, it'd be a bit hard to simulate the universe without using itself, since we don't know what the rule is for our physical world yet
23:30:34 <oklopol> of course you'd use it for the computation, because it's all you have :P
23:30:46 <oklopol> but like, using like a computer would be impossible
23:30:50 <oklopol> because we don't know the rule
23:31:19 <oklopol> well i guess anderson knows
23:31:45 <oklopol> i'm thinking it has something to do with nullity
23:32:16 <g4lt-sb100> yes, rule 1: NULLITY DOESN'T WORK, YOU MORON
23:34:16 <oklopol> do not ruin my punchlines!
23:34:34 <oklopol> quick poll: atheists raise their hands!
23:34:48 <oklopol> (we have too little random polls here...)
23:35:26 <oklopol> (believers can lower their hands so we don't confuse them with idlers :))
23:38:13 <oklopol> gotta go do physics, god that's boring shit ->
23:40:30 * Sgeo should work on PSOX :/
00:02:43 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:04:00 -!- ehird` has quit.
00:42:44 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
01:14:24 * jix raises hand too
01:23:14 <jix> can't watch 15 channels for random polls at the same time :/
01:23:42 <jix> i think i'm an atheist for the same reason a lot of people are christian....
01:24:41 <ihope> You're afraid that if you believe in Jesus, you'll go to Hell?
01:24:56 <jix> no my parents are atheists....
01:28:05 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Speedhack status: finished the widescreen rule ;D").
01:38:13 -!- azories has joined.
01:47:24 <azories> amm http://ip-adress.com - http://whatismyip.com - http://www.iplobster.com - ipchick.com and so on = any one can explain why the dumb utilizers dont use ipconfig ?
01:47:27 -!- azories has left (?).
02:02:30 <ihope> azories has been here and done that before?
02:02:45 <ihope> Perhaps you should call on lament for a ban?
02:03:36 <oerjan> probably banned from entire freenode by now
02:04:11 <ihope> Want to ask a staffer if a k-line has been issued?
02:05:14 <oerjan> you would think they would have some way of noticing someone hopping channels like that
02:06:07 <ihope> Like denny, rob, njan, scp, alindeman, SeJo, denny^AFK, PhilKC, SportChick, RichiH, notabot, quux, JamesOff, dmwaters, Matt, nalioth, tomaw|phone, Madkiss, tomaw, jenda, Stx, weasel, LoRez, seanw, christel, cdlu, kloeri...
02:06:41 <ihope> What, I missed one?
02:18:23 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out).
02:45:32 <g4lt-sb100> ies left before they could get a kline, but there's one waiting for them
03:01:13 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
03:07:03 -!- ihope_ has joined.
03:24:20 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out).
04:07:10 -!- g4lt-sb100 has changed nick to g4lt-mordant.
04:33:03 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
04:33:34 -!- ihope_ has quit (Connection timed out).
04:53:03 -!- rutlov has joined.
04:56:03 -!- rutlov has left (?).
07:22:32 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
07:27:16 -!- cmeme has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
09:43:15 -!- RedDak has joined.
11:56:08 -!- jix has joined.
12:12:18 -!- Figs has joined.
12:13:14 <Figs> I'm working on my parser system, and I've realized that I can build sequences that are allowed to do _anything_...
12:13:32 <Figs> as long as whatever actions they take can be "unwound"
12:13:58 <oklopol> _anything_, like make me coffee?
12:14:11 <oklopol> because i wouldn't mind, tbh.
12:14:14 <Figs> as long as you provide a procedure for unmaking coffee
12:14:47 <Figs> my reasoning being that I could have
12:14:59 <Figs> where a is either "a", "b", or "c"
12:15:07 <Figs> each can only be used once
12:16:33 <Figs> I don't know... is this a really awful idea?
12:24:26 <oklopol> i don't see what you mean :\
12:25:13 <Figs> so like, "abc", "bca", etc, but not "bbc"
12:25:49 <Figs> using the "a" parser would have a side effect
12:26:27 <Figs> so say that the first a-parser found "b"
12:26:44 <Figs> it would behind the scenes say that "b is no longer allowed"
12:27:09 <oklopol> that's a bit rare requirement...
12:27:20 <Figs> it's not, really, if you turn it around
12:27:22 <oklopol> you could have a set combiner separately..
12:27:42 <Figs> defintions >> statements_using_defined_variables
12:28:24 <Figs> which would fail if an undefined variable is used
12:28:38 <Figs> (>> means "followed by" in my notation)
12:29:49 <Figs> or is this a really awful idea?
12:30:00 <Figs> it can also be used for type checking, I think
12:30:11 <oklopol> i'm sorry but i still don't get it :P
12:30:52 <oklopol> i don't get "definitions" there
12:31:12 <Figs> I should have said declarations
12:31:24 <Figs> int a; a = 6; would be ok
12:31:31 <oklopol> so.. int a,b,d; >> int c,e; >> int f; ?
12:31:33 <Figs> int a; b = 144;
12:32:08 <oklopol> a >> a >> a <<< i thought this was your notation for your parser
12:32:23 <oklopol> defintions >> statements_using_defined_variables
12:32:30 <oklopol> in there it's not, in turn?
12:32:50 <oklopol> definitions >> statements...
12:32:56 <Figs> something like that
12:32:59 <Figs> just as an example
12:33:14 <Figs> I don't think you get what I mean
12:33:19 <Figs> parser p = a >> b;
12:33:24 <Figs> is how I'd write it in C++
12:33:33 <Figs> p.match(somestring);
12:33:45 <oklopol> but then you say you are all the time referring to >> as the c++ operator >>
12:33:51 <Figs> say somestring = "int a; a = 6;"
12:33:53 <oklopol> and then using it non syntactically
12:34:19 <Figs> >> is an overloaded operator, silly :P
12:34:24 <Figs> >> means followed by
12:34:31 <oklopol> but you can't do int a,b,c; >> a+b
12:34:39 <oklopol> i didn't know it can be used unary
12:34:44 <Figs> you don't write the >> in the string you're parsing
12:34:56 <Figs> "int a,b,c; a = 6;"
12:34:59 <Figs> would be your string
12:35:07 <oklopol> yes, but that's not defintions >> statements_using_defined_variables
12:35:32 <Figs> statements = "int " >> variable name >> ";"
12:35:50 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/5x7Kng74.html
12:35:57 <oklopol> you should be more explicit @ your quoting
12:36:30 <oklopol> (14:31:38) (oklopol) int a,b,c; >> a+b
12:36:33 <oklopol> (14:31:53) (Figs) something like that
12:36:33 <oklopol> (14:31:56) (Figs) just as an example
12:36:49 <oklopol> ut you assumed i meant "int a,b,c;" >> "a+b"?
12:36:55 -!- ehird` has joined.
12:37:11 -!- ehird` has quit (Client Quit).
12:37:53 * Figs doesn't see where that was
12:38:19 <oklopol> 14:33, but you have a different itme
12:38:20 <Figs> your clock is way off mine
12:38:27 <Figs> (I have at 32:13)
12:39:14 <Figs> I think I was talking about something else
12:39:36 <Figs> meta-analysis @ 4 am is hard :P
12:39:55 <Figs> in any case I did not mean that "int a,b,c; >> 1+2" would make sense at all
12:40:18 <oklopol> i still don't get the "type checking" thing or why a term would only use each subterm once...
12:40:35 <oklopol> your parser there could be broken if so.
12:40:49 <oklopol> because the dog could never chase the cat.
12:42:17 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/aQO40e47.html
12:42:31 <Figs> oklopol, that's just an example of my notation
12:42:35 <Figs> not of type checking
12:42:46 <Figs> this is like that a/b/c thing
12:42:52 <Figs> in really pseudo code
12:43:26 <Figs> if it's a success, then pull it out of allowed numbers
12:43:30 <Figs> I forgot to do that :P
12:43:39 <Figs> I shouldn't be programming so late at night >.<
12:43:46 <Figs> but it's the only way I ever get anything done
12:44:27 <Figs> the idea being that I could say something like
12:45:04 <Figs> f(T x); and then if I do f(6) and T was string, it'd fail.
12:45:21 <Figs> where the information about f is stored somewhere else
12:45:29 <Figs> (outside the main parser)
12:45:45 <Figs> the reason things need to be undone is that something like
12:45:50 <Figs> "time flies like an arrow"
12:45:56 <Figs> can be interpreted in many ways
12:46:02 <Figs> (to give an example in english)
12:46:49 <Figs> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_language_processing#Concrete_problems (For example)
12:46:59 <Figs> my prime objective isn't NLP, but
12:47:12 <Figs> the same types of problems can occur in things like
12:47:28 <Figs> so say I give "aabc"
12:47:41 <Figs> it'd say, ok, *a is any number of 'a's... so ah! "aa" ok...
12:47:53 <Figs> now let's see, we have "bc" left... can I find an "abc'? no...
12:48:02 <Figs> oh wait, shit, let's go back...
12:48:09 <Figs> "a" is also acceptable for *a!
12:48:13 <Figs> now I have "abc" left
12:48:19 <Figs> can I match "abc" to that?
12:48:38 * Figs wonders what his monologue count is up to...
12:50:14 <oklopol> well yes, you do have to unwind often
12:52:19 <Figs> ugh. English is so fucking ambiguous... how do we ever get anything done?!
12:53:52 <oklopol> we use only simple sentences...
12:54:03 <Figs> Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana.
12:54:13 <oklopol> in english, using longer ones verry often leads to confusion
12:54:31 <oklopol> at least when talking about non trivial stuff
12:54:41 <oklopol> i've seen it happen here, even to natives
12:54:55 <Figs> So, if I told you about a legal document, and then, halfway through, I started talking about the way in which I was talking, would you be confused; are you confused yet?
12:55:44 <Figs> that was a longer sentance :D
12:55:55 <oklopol> well yeah, but you didn't use much ambiguity.
12:55:55 <Figs> fruit flies like a banana... I have to get that on a shirt
12:56:09 <Figs> "Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana." :P
12:56:19 * Figs stops the groucho marx humor and moves on
12:56:41 <oklopol> there's a finnish poem that goes like
12:57:31 <oklopol> kun olet nuori, min rakastan vain sinua / kun vanhenet, min vain rakastan sinua / kun olet vanha, vain min rakastan sinua
12:57:46 * Figs no spekka finnish
12:57:48 <oklopol> the placing of "vain", or "only" makes the whole meaning different
12:58:16 <oklopol> when you're young, i love only you / when you get older, i still love you / when you're old, only i love you
12:58:31 <oklopol> and no, that had nothing to do with anything
12:58:56 <oklopol> just a random language quirk
12:59:50 <Figs> bwahaha -- "She got her looks from her father. He's a plastic surgeon."
12:59:54 <Figs> (Groucho Marx)
13:00:38 <oklopol> the problem is stuff like that is trivial
13:00:54 <oklopol> you can pretty much turn any sentence upside down
13:01:02 <oklopol> just by finding all it's possible meaning
13:01:23 * Figs still finds it funny.
13:01:44 <oklopol> i don't, really, too joke-y
13:01:52 <Figs> it's a joke :P
13:02:08 <Figs> A joke is a joke. Bah. :P
13:02:21 <oklopol> it's like a textbook example of a joke
13:02:30 <oklopol> easy to guess the punchline
13:02:50 <oklopol> not that i did in the 3 seconds i read it, but after you read it, it's veeeery obvious
13:03:43 <oklopol> well might be fun if you'd never thought about that saying
13:03:55 <Figs> what might be fun?
13:04:37 <oklopol> if you'd never even realized " to get ones looks from someone" is a saying that actually objectifies "looks" as something that can be given
13:04:49 <oklopol> i'm not sure if that'd help.
13:05:09 <Figs> it's a very common saying in English
13:05:27 <oklopol> which is why not everyone might've put thought to it
13:05:51 <oklopol> you know, it's the funnier the more surprising it is
13:06:07 <oklopol> so if you didn't understand what the plastic surgeon thing meant in a second
13:06:13 <oklopol> but in like 1.5, it might be fun
13:06:27 <oklopol> i'll stop talking crappity now, gotta go buy stuff
13:06:58 <oklopol> i have the constant feeling of "dumb" in the morning
13:06:59 <Figs> Shark eating a clown fish -- "Does this taste funny to you?"
13:07:17 * Figs will only lower you IQ
13:07:52 <oklopol> my iq is 140 - 160 depending on the test
13:08:16 <Figs> I don't trust tests
13:08:25 <oklopol> i don't like them, always about speed
13:08:32 * Figs thinks IQ tests are stupid :P
13:08:56 <Figs> (if you're trying to see how "intelligent" someone is, and not using them "properly")
13:08:58 -!- ehird` has joined.
13:09:05 -!- Figs has changed nick to ehird``.
13:09:15 <oklopol> they test pattern matching ability, usually
13:09:27 -!- ehird`` has changed nick to Figlet.
13:09:40 -!- Figlet has changed nick to Figgeh.
13:10:00 <Figgeh> oh, I don't do Teh Figg(eh|ness) any mroe :'(
13:10:46 -!- Figgeh has changed nick to Figs.
13:11:26 <Figs> ::::p <-- spiderman!!
13:11:53 <Figs> - - - - - >>>>O
13:12:26 <oklopol> exams tomorrow ARIGFAE)GJOAGJRE
13:12:48 <Figs> figs.stupidness > infinity ? { sleep(); }
13:12:56 * Figs isn't in school yet
13:13:03 <Figs> my feet are cold
13:13:14 <Figs> school starts in a week or two
13:13:21 <Figs> I move in next wednesday
13:13:49 <oklopol> (see what i did there haw haw)
13:13:58 <Figs> not really funny
13:14:13 <oklopol> but you have to realize that wasn't a joke
13:14:19 <oklopol> i just didn't understand what you meant
13:14:49 * Figs moves in with kolopol and tells him to put on some clothes.
13:14:56 <oklopol> i just know one meaning for thta
13:15:09 <oklopol> i actually have some clothes on
13:15:17 <oklopol> my parents said they might come to visit.
13:15:48 <oklopol> my father is a bit of a nudist himself, though, so i don't think he'd be that shocked
13:15:56 <Figs> parents + clothes > parents + nude?
13:16:09 -!- ihope_ has joined.
13:16:28 <Figs> hello, goodbye
13:16:31 -!- Figs has left (?).
14:52:47 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
14:52:59 -!- jix has joined.
15:09:01 -!- importantshock has joined.
15:48:12 -!- ihope_ has quit ("http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.08.09").
16:12:39 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
16:17:57 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:56:58 -!- jix has joined.
17:13:46 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: no, but they have been known to Google me.
17:15:12 <oklopol> why do they know your nick?
17:15:20 <oklopol> mine don't know what irc is :)
17:15:36 <oklopol> i guess they sort of decided your nick for you...
17:15:44 <oklopol> in case that's your irl name
17:17:05 <SimonRC> ah, good point, they probably wouldn't
17:58:43 -!- importantshock has quit ("Meh.").
19:06:54 -!- X-Slayer has joined.
19:28:03 <SimonRC> X-Slayer: how did you manage that?
19:28:38 <SimonRC> If your client did tab-completion, you would never mis-spell a username.
19:29:26 <SimonRC> tab completion is where you type part of something and hit tab, and the computer finishes it for you.
19:29:40 <SimonRC> great for situations like completing IRC nicks
19:30:02 <SimonRC> or on command-line interfaces
19:30:53 -!- X-Slayer has left (?).
19:31:00 <ehird`> you scared x-slayer away SimonRC
19:31:37 <ehird`> he disconnected, even :p
19:31:49 <ehird`> tab-completion is scary!
19:32:03 -!- oerjan has quit ("Dinner").
19:42:31 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
20:00:58 * ehird` sends a trojan...um...geography teacher to bsmntbombdood
20:01:25 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
20:02:32 <oklopol> hah i've been naked for ages
20:06:44 <oklopol> i'm very sexy, you should see me
20:07:51 <oklopol> i didn't mean that literally.
20:08:04 <oklopol> it's more of an intellectual kind of sexy
20:10:35 <ehird`> oklopol: so, the ugly kind of sexy
20:11:46 <oklopol> hey, i'm seeing two girls atm!
20:18:55 <oklopol> that's a funny story alright :DD
20:22:14 <oklopol> also when you said "yummy", omg i almost wet my pants :DD
20:24:22 <oklopol> i have a blanket under me, i could wet that one
20:26:35 <oklopol> my physics matriculation exam is tomorrow 8|
20:26:41 <oklopol> i don't know any fucking physics
20:26:52 <oklopol> teach me! teach me everything!
20:32:12 <oklopol> i don't know any terms in english tohugh
20:32:21 <oklopol> only done physics @ school
20:42:52 <oklopol> we have these test @ the end of high-school.
20:43:08 <oklopol> "what is the test for" is also ambiguous :P
20:43:29 <oklopol> it's hard when parsing requires intelligence...
20:44:01 <oklopol> i had my english test and got the best grade possible, and i suck @ english
20:44:06 <oklopol> so i have high hopes still :P
20:44:21 <oklopol> i guess i don't suck when i try, but same goes for physics
21:35:44 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
21:37:12 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:33:32 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:48:29 -!- RedDak has joined.
23:00:37 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:03:29 -!- RedDak has joined.
23:47:45 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
23:49:25 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Client Quit).
00:25:41 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:26:47 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
01:14:50 -!- ehird` has quit.
02:01:49 -!- edwardk has joined.
02:07:59 -!- calamari has joined.
02:32:19 <edwardk> anyone awake who is versed in haskell syntax? playing with a toy language with similar syntax at the moment
02:32:32 <pikhq> oerjan? Oh oerjan?
02:33:23 <edwardk> basically i figured out a way to code up monads without types, so i've been playing with a framework somewhat between haskell and erlang for the last few days
02:34:41 <edwardk> the idea in erlang is that you have atoms lists and tuples, and a few primitive types, but nothing else really and no type system.
02:35:30 <edwardk> what i went back and did was revisit the notion of a constructor in a typeless setting, so now i just say that a given constructor has some 'arity' associated with it. i.e. cons has arity 2 and nil has arity 0, but avoid specifying the types of the terms that go in each slot.
02:36:01 <oerjan> ok. similar to prolog i guess.
02:36:16 <edwardk> so in erlang you'd have to say {cons, x, xs} or {nil} whereas in this setting you can say arity 2 Cons, then Cons x xs and the default arity is 0
02:36:29 <edwardk> sorta, except it can be written applicatively because of the basic lazy semantics
02:36:30 <oerjan> (i vaguely recall erlang being descended somewhat from prolog, btw)
02:36:53 <edwardk> so you get haskell style pointfree syntax
02:37:31 <edwardk> so the dilemma comes about with monads, right since traditionally you think of a monad as doing different things based on the type it is inhabiting
02:38:15 <oerjan> pretty essential if you want more than one with the same syntax
02:38:15 <edwardk> so if you don't have types, haskell style monads seem like they are right out without passing around some sort of additional parameter that indicates the 'type of monad you are in' and using that. i.e. the haskell dictionary passing style
02:38:26 <edwardk> well, turns out you don't need that after all =)
02:38:46 <edwardk> the trick is the monad laws
02:38:59 <oerjan> i have thought similar thoughts
02:39:16 <edwardk> so for a concrete example lets define the identity monad
02:39:39 <edwardk> now Ok is a constructor which can be used as a tag when pattern matching on >>= so it knows what case its in.
02:40:07 <edwardk> ok, so now we have the Identity Monad, and a Maybe monad
02:40:29 <edwardk> but what we need to do is anticipate that anywhere we could use the resulting monad we could also get 'Ok'
02:40:46 <edwardk> runReader (Ok x) = const x
02:41:19 <edwardk> so, then we consider something like 'ask' which seems to behave differently depending on context.
02:41:24 <oerjan> yep, you need a return that can be used everywhere. same solution as i thought of.
02:41:49 <edwardk> so the trick there is to autolift that into the reader transformer
02:41:49 <oerjan> there is some limitation though.
02:42:17 <edwardk> there are, in that you always have to tag it with a constructor
02:42:18 <oerjan> you can only use this for monads where >>= is strict in the first argument.
02:42:23 <edwardk> there is no 'true identity monad'
02:42:39 <edwardk> at least strict insofar as the outermost tag
02:43:28 <oerjan> otoh if you use something like runReader, maybe you can avoid that.
02:44:01 <edwardk> was to do something like the solution i want to play with for how to handle the monomorphism restriction and numerical classes
02:44:11 <edwardk> which reverts to carrying around the type parameter
02:44:41 <edwardk> if we define : to be an infix function, and + to be an arity 2 constructor you can say things like
02:44:59 <edwardk> a + b : Int = mp_add (a : Int) (b : Int)
02:45:22 <edwardk> and so on and so forth as a way to define how to recursively evaluate an expression as an integer
02:45:39 <edwardk> yeah the : in that case is an actual operator in my toy language. and i never liked haskell's :: =)
02:45:56 <oerjan> and the opposite for lists
02:46:09 <edwardk> i'm : for 'types' in this case and ; for lists
02:46:45 <edwardk> so with that same machinery you can make 'Return' and >>= both into constructors and define a similar decomposition
02:47:10 <edwardk> Return x : List = (x; Nil)
02:47:49 <edwardk> m >>= k : List = concat (map k m)
02:48:23 <edwardk> then the same expression consisting of Returns and >>='s can be reused in different monads until you apply a : to 'type' it
02:48:46 <edwardk> there are some tricks that still entails because : T should be idempotent, etc.
02:48:58 <oerjan> didn't you play around with a language with lots of types and (partially undecidable) inference a while ago?
02:49:03 <edwardk> and basically all : T is doing it taking the place of runT
02:49:34 <edwardk> yeah this is the same language i just stripped out the types for a while, since the non-type aspects (the substructural annotations and the theorem proving parts) are the parts I care about
02:49:55 <edwardk> so i wanted to see how far i could go with no types in the traditional sense, just detected pattern match failure
02:50:08 <edwardk> basically its if i use ndm's CATCH tool as my type system ;)
02:50:25 <edwardk> or ESC/Haskell without the /Haskell =)
02:50:59 <edwardk> i figured it was a much stronger result to be able to duplicate existing techniques with the machinery than to just layer another abstraction on top
02:51:57 <edwardk> otherwise the language remains unchanged, optimistic evaluation with lazy semantics, still has the theorem proving bits, but none of those pesky types
02:52:17 <edwardk> having the monads above lets me stay lazy and not go crazy
02:52:52 <edwardk> constructor elimination becomes of course a critical optimization step because EVERYTHING is tagged and constructors are global
02:53:11 <edwardk> so my apply/dispatch mechanism is uglier
02:53:44 <edwardk> and as a result of the above reasoning its necessary for me to allow extension of the same function (say >>=) in many locations in the code
02:53:57 <edwardk> so its hard to do separate compilation
02:54:01 <edwardk> but its a fun mental puzzle
02:54:06 <oerjan> "We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." "How do you know i'm mad?" Said Alice. "You must be." Said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
02:54:26 <oerjan> (regarding going crazy ;) )
02:56:19 <edwardk> is sort of a spew of random gibberings in this setting
02:57:23 <edwardk> arity declarations are kind of like haskell fixity declarations, but for right now fixities are er. fixed coz i'm lazy and haven't added them =)
02:57:47 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving").
02:57:49 <edwardk> \x. foo ~= \x -> foo since there is no legal use for a . inside a pattern there
02:57:58 <edwardk> and its closer to the lambda calculus formalism
02:58:58 <edwardk> i like the fact that it sort of naturally subtypes back and forth between the monads (Nil and Nothing collapse, etc)
02:59:12 <edwardk> the Identity monad is just a Maybe monad where Nil is never used, etc.
02:59:36 <edwardk> i had an earlier version with "types" for the monads before i realized i could live without the type tags
03:01:45 <edwardk> basically anything without a = in the line is taken to be an 'axiom' which is just a function that any time the pattern matches returns true, and if none of the patterns match anywhere it returns false
03:02:03 <edwardk> and i do prolog/erlang style structural equality tests if you use the same term in a pattern twice
03:03:45 <oerjan> hm... you get sort of a supermonad that includes all the others...
03:03:51 <edwardk> but plumbing around the monad type everywhere got ugly, i did a version with a sort of implicit type-level reader monad and another draft using dynamic binding and delimited control to change a dynamically scoped 'current monad' variable with pattern matching support on dynamic variables
03:04:16 <edwardk> brings to mind that somewhat horrid 'unimo' paper iirc
03:04:52 <edwardk> but basically i find it amusing that it lets me express a subtyping relationship among the different monads thats more or less impossible to express in a hindley milner style formalism
03:06:02 <edwardk> i started down this slippery slope with http://comonad.com/reader/2007/parameterized-monads-in-haskell/
03:06:35 <edwardk> one thing i like about it is the reductions are confluent even if you are locally working in a different 'sub-monad'
03:07:09 <edwardk> i.e. if you work with just returns and >>= you stay in 'identity' until you mix in an 'ask' then you get lifted out into Reader, then maybe you 'get' so you get placed in a state monad, etc.
03:07:23 <edwardk> then when you runFoo you peel off the layers of the onion
03:07:31 <edwardk> and you coerce the types to fit
03:08:02 <edwardk> so locally you can avoid having to pay the overhead of the full monad you are in
03:09:19 <edwardk> which when you add in constructor-elimination should open up a lot of optimization opportunities that you never get exposed to in haskell because you can't see them through the monad-noise
03:10:09 <edwardk> the pain in the ass comes from the fact that i have to try to use control flow analysis to see if you ever do the wrong thing ;)
03:11:48 <edwardk> but i thought it was a neat way to tackle the 'untyped monad'
03:12:09 <edwardk> as opposed to the dictionary passing style mechanism that dpiponi used in his toy untyped monadic language
03:12:40 <edwardk> coz passing dictionaries everywhere explicitly gets rid of the nice syntactic benefits of having monads
03:21:37 <oerjan> i guess a mathematician if necessary would put the monad as index on the >>=
03:22:26 <edwardk> i played with carrying around an explicit type using the : as a reduction operator, which lets you do things like the anonymous reader monad as well
03:22:36 <edwardk> not sure if thats a win though
03:23:00 <edwardk> the : reduction technique is how i'm thinking about handling the monomorphism restriction though
03:23:05 <edwardk> its a funny way to view the world though
03:23:26 <edwardk> then applying an evaluation function (:) to the constructed value the evaluate it
03:24:36 <oerjan> your mixing of monads might be a bit awkward if the transformers don't commute
03:25:19 <edwardk> you may have to inject a runFoo or a : t to disambiguate
03:27:06 <edwardk> x : READER = Reader (runReader x)
03:28:04 <edwardk> then i can stick to my 'typeless monad' approach and use (:) as a disambiguation operator letting it retain its 'type-annotation' like connotation
03:52:57 <oerjan> is this all the information about f you've got?
03:54:16 <oerjan> 13 is a prime, and 8 is the previous fibonacci number
03:54:48 <edwardk> just looked at my screen i think i know it
03:55:14 <bsmntbombdood> you were the one with the language that no one but oerjan understood, right?
03:55:51 <edwardk> > let f x = x*4 - 44 in map f [15,34,13,20] ===> (10:55:49 PM) Lambda Bot: [16,92,8,36]
03:56:38 <edwardk> its changed into a simpler language with basically the same issue ;)
03:57:32 <edwardk> bsmntbombdood: anyways that should answer your question
03:58:03 <edwardk> the key insight for me was the f(15) and f(13), i backed that out to guess f(11) and used f(34) to test its linearity
04:00:35 <oerjan> exercise: now, if it hadn't been linear, why wouldn't it be a good idea to try a second degree polynomial? ;)
04:01:11 <edwardk> coz you could always find one? =)
04:01:21 <oerjan> edwardk wins the prize!
04:01:32 <edwardk> i knew that math degree was good for something ;)
04:02:11 <edwardk> actually thats a perfectly good use for a second degree polynomial for these silly underspecified problems =P
04:03:15 <bsmntbombdood> what about f(361) = 22; f(121) = 14; f(81) = 12; f(25) = ??
04:03:31 * edwardk watches as #esoteric does bsmntbombdood's homework =)
04:04:02 <edwardk> look at f(121) and f(81), do the same trick i did above
04:04:05 <oerjan> in this case we are looking at squares
04:04:45 <oerjan> all the arguments are squares
04:04:46 <edwardk> 'every 20 it changes by 1', so find 0
04:10:40 <edwardk> oerjan is right in that case since that one fails the naive linearity test: > let f x = x/20 + 7.95 in map f [81,121,361,25] ==> Lambda Bot: [12.0,14.0,> 26.0 < ,9.2]
04:11:08 <edwardk> and it looks ugly when you try it linearly ;)
04:13:05 <edwardk> so do you think people would like to play with a (sort-of) untyped lazy language with just constructors and easily extensible cases? it opens up a haskell-like language to the erlang-like use cases of long-uptime systems, etc.
04:13:22 <edwardk> since its easy to code-swap in that sort of system
04:24:37 -!- Sgeo has joined.
04:36:16 -!- edwardk has left (?).
04:52:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit.
05:20:22 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
06:18:38 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat").
06:20:30 -!- Guilt has joined.
06:20:41 <pikhq> Just a tiny game I've been designing in PEBBLE. . .
06:20:54 <pikhq> (PEBBLE being a macro language I devised which compiles to Brainfuck)
06:21:18 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pebble.php If you need to ask me questions, do so later; I'm going to bed, since it's late.
06:21:32 <Guilt> okay :) nighty night
06:21:36 <pikhq> Enjoy Brainfucking with everyone else. . .
06:50:56 -!- g4lt-sb100 has joined.
06:54:21 -!- sp3tt has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
07:00:08 -!- Guilt has quit ("CGI:IRC at http://freenode.bafsoft.ath.cx:14464/ (EOF)").
07:05:52 -!- g4lt-mordant has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
07:20:45 -!- tokigun_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
07:22:30 -!- tokigun has joined.
07:38:49 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("gtg bye").
07:46:00 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
07:46:32 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
07:46:42 -!- Guilt has joined.
07:50:52 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
07:51:19 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
07:51:32 -!- puzzlet__ has joined.
07:51:44 -!- puzzlet__ has quit (Client Quit).
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:06:37 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
08:12:55 <Guilt> i was wondering. would the equivalent of code-compression in brainfuck involve functions? :)
08:13:12 <Guilt> brainfuck code is kinda' huge
08:16:41 <Guilt> brainfuck code looks easy to compress, you know.
08:17:01 <Guilt> with lz, you could put those identified patterns together
08:24:07 <lament> yes, it's easy to compress.
08:25:42 <Guilt> lament: no, at executable code level.
08:25:56 <Guilt> upxing gave me a 14% compression thing.
08:26:10 <Guilt> 14% of uncompressed executable data
08:26:36 <Guilt> i was wondering if anybody tried doing code compression. :)
08:26:47 <Guilt> so you can also identify reusable brainfuck patterns
08:26:52 <Guilt> like a library of sorts.
08:27:15 <Guilt> hmm. the next best thing: a portable brainfuck library :D
08:27:18 <lament> i'm not sure whether "at executable code level" is meaningful.
08:27:38 <lament> there're several macro preprocessors for brainfuck, though.
08:27:42 <Guilt> lament: http://guilt.bafsoft.net/downloads/wip/Brainfuck.tar.bz2 check this out.
08:28:02 <Guilt> LostKng.b compiled to an executable of size 2 odd megs.
08:28:53 <Guilt> you know, which is why i wondered if there would be a way to reduce code.
08:29:05 <Guilt> like combining a compiler with a compressor. ;) lol
08:30:15 <Guilt> hmm. one easy way to partition it is to take loops which lead to the same text pattern. make them functions with labels. call them instead of jumping to them, and return back.
08:30:37 <Guilt> that way you could save considerable space.
08:30:55 <Guilt> you're not passing any data through the stack, which makes it a little slower, but smaller
08:31:14 <lament> also, identify patterns of brainfuck code that can be compiled into single instructions
08:34:15 <Guilt> i'm already coercing shifts and additions
08:34:29 <Guilt> is that what you are talking about?
08:35:44 <Guilt> er. balanced loops
08:35:45 <Guilt> er. balanced loops?
08:35:53 <Guilt> didn't get that one?
08:36:16 <lament> loops which don't move the memory pointer
08:36:40 <Guilt> that don't move it?
08:36:55 <lament> the memory pointer is unchanged by the loop
08:37:13 <lament> the effect is m[mp+1] = m[mp] * 2; m[mp] = 0;
08:37:20 <Guilt> well. but it's used to increase the adjacent cell by twice the current cell value
08:37:32 <lament> i'm not sure what the "but" in your sentence means.
08:38:06 <Guilt> for small shifts it's okay. but with a moving loop and shift it's impossible.
08:38:37 <Guilt> like, to set all values to zero (of lower and current cell): [[-]<]
08:39:23 <lament> that's not a balanced loop.
08:40:06 <Guilt> hm. i see. a balanced loop contains balanced loops and doesn't change the memory pointer position\
08:40:42 <Guilt> alright. will read a bit about this :)
08:55:03 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
09:00:48 -!- RedDak has joined.
09:48:24 -!- SEO_DUDE55 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
09:58:45 <Guilt> lament, you slept?
10:14:34 -!- SEO_DUDE55 has joined.
10:35:43 -!- Guilt has quit ("CGI:IRC at http://freenode.bafsoft.ath.cx:14464/ (Ping timeout)").
10:35:57 -!- Guilt has joined.
10:41:13 -!- SEO_DUDE55 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
11:26:35 -!- Guilt has quit ("CGI:IRC at http://freenode.bafsoft.ath.cx:14464/ (EOF)").
11:52:18 -!- ehird` has joined.
12:13:11 -!- helios24 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
13:03:01 -!- rutlov has joined.
13:03:35 -!- helios24 has joined.
13:09:01 -!- rutlov has left (?).
13:18:11 <oklopol> this time i actually understood (partly) what edwardk said!
14:42:14 <oklopol> even though i'm pretty sure i understood, i am certainly not confident enough to try to explain it to you, so check the logs :P
14:43:36 <oklopol> i didn't get all of the monad stuff, but i mean last time i didn't understand one single sentence completely, i'm pretty sure :P
14:44:23 <oklopol> i did understand the idea, that was pretty obvious, but he's got a lot of words
15:37:13 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:58:43 -!- jix has joined.
17:07:49 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:30:32 <oerjan> beethoven and mozart, presumably. famous decomposers.
17:35:09 -!- SEO_DUDE55 has joined.
18:15:39 -!- _D6Gregor1RFeZi has changed nick to GregorR.
18:49:08 -!- sp3tt has joined.
19:06:35 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
19:43:27 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
20:02:39 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
20:13:29 * ehird` is a famous decomposer
20:17:48 <ehird`> and beethoven and mozart
20:18:47 <RodgerTheGreat> beethoven, for example, wasn't famous for his decomposing until after his death
20:21:14 <ehird`> beethoven and mozart, presumably. famous decomposers.
20:53:29 -!- RedDak has joined.
21:06:24 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
21:14:37 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:39:06 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
22:03:41 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:10:42 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
22:48:33 <bsmntbombdood> how much work is a compiler allowed to do and still be called a compiler?
22:52:39 <oerjan> remember that a compiler cannot access actual runtime input, which limits things
22:53:13 * ehird` thinks that in /me's perfect language, compiler and interpreter would be the same word!
22:59:15 -!- ehird` has quit.
23:01:32 -!- ehird` has joined.
23:43:14 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: Compilers are just language translators that target languages not intended to be read by humans.
23:43:34 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: If your program does something aside from language translation, it's not a compiler.
23:44:11 <GregorR> I guess I can remove the clause "not intended to be read by humans"
23:44:46 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: Optimization is a component of the translation. It's like translating a phrase into a coined expression instead of into a roundabout explanation.
23:45:05 <GregorR> (To compare it to real language translation)
23:47:29 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:04:26 -!- ehird` has quit.
00:16:26 <lament> it's hard for compiler and interpreter to be the same word.
00:58:33 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+").
02:17:46 -!- edwardk has joined.
03:58:56 -!- edwardk has left (?).
04:39:34 <oerjan> i generally try to avoid that.
06:19:03 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
07:07:32 -!- rutlov has joined.
07:19:32 -!- rutlov has left (?).
07:23:42 <lament> stealing matlab is hard
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:13:47 -!- Guilt has joined.
08:59:47 -!- helios24 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
09:01:34 -!- helios24 has joined.
09:34:53 -!- sebbu has joined.
09:59:38 -!- Guilt has quit ("CGI:IRC at http://freenode.bafsoft.ath.cx:14464/ (EOF)").
10:28:57 -!- ehird` has joined.
10:38:32 -!- helios24 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
10:39:50 -!- SEO_DUDE55 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
10:43:33 -!- SEO_DUDE55 has joined.
11:30:40 -!- SEO_DUDE55 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
11:41:39 -!- oerjan has joined.
11:41:51 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
11:41:56 -!- puzzlet has joined.
12:58:00 -!- SEO_DUDE101 has joined.
13:20:59 -!- jix has joined.
14:35:59 <oerjan> <CTCP>ACTION tests<CTCP>
14:39:45 <ehird`> \1ACTION tests\1, you mean
14:43:20 <oerjan> huh? the second was right wasn't it?
14:45:58 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
14:46:10 -!- jix has joined.
14:48:50 <oklopol> so right it almost peeked out from the left already
15:30:20 -!- helios24 has joined.
16:38:09 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
17:04:43 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined.
17:16:50 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
18:37:19 -!- jix has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
18:37:19 -!- Overand has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
18:37:19 -!- Chton has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
18:37:19 -!- Eidolos has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
18:38:01 -!- jix has joined.
18:38:01 -!- Overand has joined.
18:38:01 -!- Chton has joined.
18:38:01 -!- Eidolos has joined.
19:42:13 -!- Figs has joined.
19:42:24 <Figs> don't you just love operator abuse?
19:42:26 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/YGBwxZ75.html
19:43:50 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:56:36 <Figs> it's pretty basic
19:56:42 <Figs> I could do a better job with more time
19:56:51 <Figs> but I was just fed up with syntax tree generators yesterday :P
19:57:12 <Figs> if I keep doing this shit, eventually I'll have a full lisp-interpreter in C++ .... >.>
19:57:18 * GregorR watches Figs turn C++ into LISP
19:57:18 <oklopol> closer to lisp than your earlier parenthesis one, was my point
19:57:41 <oklopol> i recall us once before saying the same thing at almost the same second
19:58:10 <oklopol> you almost said that at the same second too :P
19:58:30 <Figs> #define node(s) tree(s) isn't really needed... I was just feeling lazy :P
19:58:33 <GregorR> Now, Plof3 will be trivially able to be turned into LISP
19:58:54 <oklopol> ah you added that syntax thing
19:58:57 <Figs> I don't really know enough lisp to convert the whole thing
19:59:09 <GregorR> Runtime-defined grammar! Weeeh
19:59:17 <Figs> but supposedly I only need about 7 functions...?
19:59:18 <oklopol> you know what the reason is?
19:59:29 <Figs> (according to (paul graham))
19:59:35 <oklopol> I WAS GONNA DO THAT FOR OKLOTALK YOU MIND THIF
20:00:25 <oklopol> lisp needs if + define + lambda + a few operators
20:00:53 -!- ololobot has joined.
20:02:03 <oklopol> GregorR: is grammar first-class?
20:02:23 <oklopol> can you pass it for the ultimate obfuscation
20:02:54 -!- sebbu has quit (Success).
20:03:07 -!- Figs has left (?).
20:17:05 -!- Tritonio has joined.
21:04:14 <GregorR> Why do I keep typing 's' :P
21:04:47 <GregorR> No, grammatical elements are not first class ... you could build a grammar which has constructs which themselves resolve to grammatical actions, and then pass around those constructs.
21:08:16 <GregorR> That is, grammatical elements are defined entirely internally and committed by operations in the stack code, but you could make an object which encapsulates that stackcode operation in a defined way.
21:10:45 <GregorR> (FYI, the stackcode itself is not directly accessible from user code, you need to define a grammar for it)
21:44:45 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
22:00:09 <ehird`> who wants to help me write the ultimate bf compiler i've had in mind for a while now?
22:00:16 <ehird`> it'll do BF->C, and some really heavy optimization
22:03:07 <ehird`> hopefully it'll be the most complete BF compiler out there
22:03:46 -!- RedDak has joined.
22:11:47 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
22:16:56 <ehird`> <crickets chirp, nobody cares>
22:47:07 <ehird`> yes, except i've had ideas for this one in my mind for a while now
22:51:12 <ehird`> like some various optimization techniques that i have not seen before
22:52:40 <ehird`> like x[x] -> dowhile loop
22:52:43 <ehird`> (i haven't seen that before)
22:56:16 <ehird`> it's still a reasonable optimization
22:56:20 <ehird`> and helps with code size
22:58:02 <bsmntbombdood> the obvious one is to pre execute all the code up to the first input
22:58:16 <ehird`> which is actually a really sucky optimization
22:58:25 <ehird`> what about infinite loops?
22:58:29 <ehird`> if you put a timelimit,
22:58:37 <ehird`> what if my code takes 5 minutes to execute but isn't an infinite loop?
22:58:47 <ehird`> do i get different, unoptimized code jsut because of the system i'm on is slow?
22:59:21 <ehird`> just because my code is a certain way it gets compiled in a different, perhaps slower way
22:59:53 <ehird`> also, i don't want my factorial program that calculates the factorial of 10 to be executed at compiletime
23:00:12 <ehird`> the x[x] optimization will be run after the useless-instruction removal
23:00:20 <ehird`> "<>" = "", so it'd be x[x] again
23:02:41 <bsmntbombdood> there's other ways to make it the same but unrecognizable
23:02:59 <ehird`> btw, the look-ahead and code-pattern-matching codes would be pretty advanced
23:03:08 <ehird`> it'd be damn hard to make e.g. the x[x] optimization fail
23:04:25 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:04:41 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:15:37 -!- ehird` has quit.
23:52:22 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:00:09 -!- oerjan has joined.
01:20:50 <bsmntbombdood> "The library offers a rather nice "free" dynamic memory allocation feature for running brainfuck code.
01:20:50 <bsmntbombdood> It works through page protection mechanism and catching of SIGSEGV signals. "
02:25:39 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
04:14:50 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit.
04:15:34 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
04:21:09 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined.
04:23:40 -!- SEO_DUDE101 has quit (Excess Flood).
04:26:25 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit.
04:26:35 -!- bsmntbom1dood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
04:29:24 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined.
04:31:33 -!- SEO_DUDE101 has joined.
05:54:43 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit.
06:31:21 -!- oerjan has quit ("Coffee...").
07:54:46 -!- Robdgreat has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
10:04:39 -!- oerjan has joined.
10:08:06 -!- RedDak has joined.
10:10:40 -!- ehird` has joined.
11:00:50 <oklopol> anyone seen "the lost highway" by david lynch?
11:05:23 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection).
11:13:54 -!- Guilt has joined.
11:26:05 -!- jix has joined.
11:37:11 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
11:42:09 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
11:54:37 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
13:14:18 -!- RedDak has joined.
14:19:12 -!- SEO_DUDE101 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
14:27:32 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:45:06 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
14:45:16 -!- jix has joined.
15:13:26 -!- Guilt has quit ("CGI:IRC at http://freenode.bafsoft.ath.cx:14464/ (EOF)").
16:41:01 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
17:16:11 -!- zepolen has joined.
17:16:26 -!- zepolen has left (?).
17:37:01 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:37:34 -!- jix has joined.
17:48:23 -!- g4lt-sb100 has changed nick to g4lt-yarrrrr.
17:59:00 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:03:17 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
18:03:17 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
18:30:13 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
18:37:04 -!- Tritonio has joined.
19:01:50 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
19:11:10 -!- sp3tt has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:16:14 -!- sp3tt has joined.
20:58:17 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:58:18 -!- ololobot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:59:35 -!- oklopol has joined.
21:09:15 -!- RedDak has joined.
22:01:07 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:28:36 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
22:59:51 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:17:24 -!- RedDak has joined.
23:37:43 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:12:34 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat").
00:35:38 -!- RedDak has joined.
00:37:36 -!- RedDak has quit (Client Quit).
01:32:10 -!- importantshock has joined.
01:56:48 -!- ehird` has quit.
02:29:49 <GregorR> Thoughts I've had today: An NFSM with a stack (a basic stack machine) can parse any context-free grammar.
02:30:13 <Robdgreat> you were feeling ambitious today, weren't you
02:30:17 <GregorR> 2) A machine of this type can go into an infinite loop.
02:30:50 <GregorR> 3) In fact, it will go into an infinite loop with any recursive grammar parsing code with bad grammar.
02:31:09 <GregorR> 4) The halting problem is solvable, but
02:31:22 <GregorR> 5) It's a HUGE EFFING PITA TO SOLVE IMPLEMENT :(
02:44:08 <GregorR> I'm fried from trying to figure out this NFSM+Stack stuff :P
03:25:54 -!- importantshock has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
03:25:54 -!- Chton has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
03:25:54 -!- Overand has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
03:25:54 -!- Eidolos has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
03:25:55 -!- tokigun has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
03:25:55 -!- cmeme has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
03:25:57 -!- zuzu_ has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
03:25:57 -!- sekhmet has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
03:25:58 -!- Tritonio has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
03:25:58 -!- pikhq has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
03:25:58 -!- g4lt-yarrrrr has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
03:25:59 -!- GregorR has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
03:25:59 -!- sp3tt has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
03:25:59 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
03:26:00 -!- mtve has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
03:26:00 -!- SimonRC has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
03:26:00 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
03:26:00 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
03:26:00 -!- lament has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
03:26:00 -!- oklopol has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
03:26:51 -!- importantshock has joined.
03:26:51 -!- oklopol has joined.
03:26:51 -!- sp3tt has joined.
03:26:51 -!- Tritonio has joined.
03:26:51 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
03:26:51 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
03:26:51 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
03:26:51 -!- pikhq has joined.
03:26:51 -!- Eidolos has joined.
03:26:51 -!- Chton has joined.
03:26:51 -!- Overand has joined.
03:26:51 -!- tokigun has joined.
03:26:51 -!- g4lt-yarrrrr has joined.
03:26:51 -!- cmeme has joined.
03:26:51 -!- lament has joined.
03:26:51 -!- zuzu_ has joined.
03:26:51 -!- sekhmet has joined.
03:26:51 -!- SimonRC has joined.
03:26:51 -!- GregorR has joined.
03:26:51 -!- mtve has joined.
04:00:19 <GregorR> Yeah, solving the halting problem for an NFSM stack machine = MASSIVE pain in the arse.
04:03:58 <GregorR> Nondeterministic Finite State Machine
04:04:05 <GregorR> A non-finite state machine is a Turing machine :P
04:08:41 <GregorR> Basically, you can make sure the machine never halts by 1) handling all non-consumptive steps simultaneously, 2) detecting loops in those steps and 3) encapsulating infinite recursion on the stack into a special "infinity" marker. When the infinity marker is popped, the state splits into two: One with the infinity marker and the remainder on the stack, one with only the remainder on the stack.
04:09:52 <RodgerTheGreat> so, in this type of system, does it become solvable because it's possible to calculate how likely the machine is to be in a particular state?
04:10:21 <GregorR> NFSMs are interpreted by having a set of states that the machine is in the superposition of.
04:10:39 <GregorR> Once every state has either led to a dead end or consumed all of the input, you're done.
04:12:02 <GregorR> You can detect loops in an FSM, since returning to a state without consuming anything is always an infinite loop.
04:15:40 <GregorR> I forgot, that's what a PDA is X-D
04:16:18 <GregorR> Err, right, NFSM + stack = NPDA
04:24:53 -!- Sgeo has joined.
04:27:20 * Sgeo should really work on PSOX
04:27:49 * GregorR should really work on Plof3
04:28:02 <GregorR> The next incarnation of Plof.
04:29:16 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/plof/plof3.txt // current work-in-progress new spec
04:42:09 -!- kwertii has joined.
04:43:13 -!- kwertii has quit (Client Quit).
04:43:25 -!- kwertii has joined.
04:54:59 -!- importantshock has quit ("Meh.").
05:28:02 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
05:28:05 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat").
05:36:57 <RodgerTheGreat> I've been drawing a bunch of increasingly bizarre comics for fun this evening. I present my creations for the enjoyment of anyone with the misfortune to still be awake:
05:37:01 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1190259559-rootpowah.png
05:37:05 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1190260876-inetargument.png
05:37:09 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1190262068-rollin.png
05:49:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Man who stand in frond of car is tired. Man who stand behind car is exhausted.").
06:47:10 -!- oerjan has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:25:17 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
08:25:24 -!- oklopol has joined.
08:39:09 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
08:43:25 -!- GreaseMonkey has left (?).
08:43:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
09:05:11 -!- jix has joined.
09:35:26 -!- sebbu has joined.
10:18:03 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
10:25:10 <oklopol> (kinda embarrasing looking up a word and managing to write it here instead of the url block...)
10:54:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("http://freechess.org").
10:55:47 -!- kwertii has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
11:02:22 -!- oerjan has quit ("Lunch").
11:20:32 -!- g4lt-sb100 has joined.
11:21:26 -!- g4lt-yarrrrr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
12:53:31 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: is root wearing a bandanna, or is that a /
13:26:47 -!- Sgeo has joined.
13:28:24 * Sgeo should work on PSOX
13:59:46 -!- jix has joined.
14:07:36 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:44:42 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
14:53:33 -!- jix has joined.
15:55:52 -!- Guilt has joined.
16:27:40 <GregorR> $ twopipe psoxi "egobfc2m Sgeo.bf"
16:28:17 <GregorR> Sgeo: Yeah, you SHOULD work on PSOX, but you don't.
16:54:50 -!- Guilt has quit ("CGI:IRC at http://freenode.bafsoft.ath.cx:14464/").
17:25:48 <oklopol> GregorR: can i see some plof3 code?
17:26:09 <oklopol> or do you even have the runtime parsing system ready yet?
17:26:34 <GregorR> I've barely started writing anything yet :P
17:27:00 <oklopol> then i daresay my oklotalk runtime parsing modification syntax might be further thought than yours :)
17:27:01 <GregorR> You can have the thirty or so lines of an NPDA implementation I've written thusfar :P
17:27:12 <oklopol> i'll prolly never get to implementing it so... no conflict :<<
17:27:31 <GregorR> I hear alllll these great things about oklotalk ripping me off, but I see no code.
17:27:59 <GregorR> Anyway, my code is all in D, and I'm betting yours isn't, so you can't steal my code :P
17:28:15 <oklopol> i'm not gonna, all the similarities are superficial
17:28:29 <oklopol> but there are a lot of them, and i'm changing them, obviously
17:28:31 <GregorR> So, how does your runtime parsing system work?
17:28:56 <oklopol> that's the thing, your idea seems so much more coherent i don't even want to talk about mine.
17:29:38 <oklopol> i think you've just had time to put more thought to that, but i do admit you are brilliant.
17:30:12 <oklopol> because while that stack thing is clever, it is obvious up to the knowledge i have about it
17:30:51 <oklopol> it's just you're thinking about it in implementation, the stack thing i mean, i was basically going for bnf-ish first class constructs + multilevel strings.
17:31:08 <oklopol> meaning you would do a lot of metacoding to use the runtime parsing.
17:31:50 <oklopol> "(oklopol) then i daresay my oklotalk runtime parsing modification syntax might be further thought than yours :)" <<< this was merely to comfort me a bit, no offence to you, more to my bad luck for knowing about plof ;)
17:32:59 <GregorR> My conversation yesterday was a reiteration of this common habit of mine: 1) Completely forget about a computing topic. 2) Need said computing topic. 3) Reinvent it identically to what I pseudo-remember. 4) Bash my head into the wall when somebody say "Uh, you mean an NPDA, right?"
17:33:01 <oklopol> i'm thinking i'll really start emptying my 2-meter-long TODO list after my german + swedish exams...
17:33:19 <oklopol> hopefully we'll be seeing oklotalk and a lot of other stuff about then
17:33:39 <oklopol> or, i'll just keep talking about it, and do nothing, like i usually do.
17:34:10 <oklopol> yeah, i did some banging when i realized what PDA was, too :P
17:34:38 <GregorR> Plof's grammar is defined entirely at runtime.
17:34:46 <oklopol> not entirely, you liar! :P
17:34:59 <GregorR> The Plof user language's grammar is defined entirely at runtime.
17:35:10 <GregorR> The Plof stack language isn't Plof, it's the Plof stack language :P
17:35:40 <oklopol> gotta go read my germans! ->
17:37:09 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: If that answers your questions at all :P
17:38:24 <GregorR> (Of course, compiling the grammar to an NPDA and running that is probably less efficient than compiling to an LALR parser, but eh :P )
17:39:17 <GregorR> (Of course of course, there are technically grammars that an NPDA can parse that an LALR parser can not)
17:40:22 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
17:46:37 <oklopol> now that i've tried to read german for a few minutes == thought about that parsing thing for a while, i can safely say oklotalk will have a very different runtime parser system
17:47:11 <oklopol> ...and i'd kinda like to implement it now, but i can't :(
17:48:04 -!- boily has joined.
17:48:34 -!- boily has quit (Client Quit).
17:49:44 <GregorR> Very different from Plof or very different from what's in your head now?
17:50:01 <GregorR> [Oh, and don't feel bad when I implement your runtime parser as a grammar for my runtime parser]
17:50:19 <bsmntbombdood> do you have something to read about this language?
17:50:39 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/plof/plof3.txt
18:00:59 <oklopol> GregorR: very different from anything that has an underlying stack language.
18:01:50 * GregorR imagines a runtime parser which transforms one grammar into another.
18:03:53 <oklopol> GregorR: basically, i changed the whole thing into something that not necesarily can be considered run-time parsing in the sense you use it.
18:04:29 <oklopol> but i'm not gonna explain it now, so all you need to know is i'm not ripping of your language :)
18:06:43 <oklopol> do correct me, that's your thing
18:06:59 <GregorR> Didn't notice it, too busy actually doing work :P
18:10:25 <GregorR> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Muaha"(_o)o.?]}
18:11:40 <oklopol> if it says "to be completed" or anything resembling that, i don't examine it very closely
18:11:55 <oklopol> not many specs seen in the last few days :P
18:13:14 <oklopol> i'll look into it more once you have the interpreter ready, since that probably won't take long in your case
18:14:52 <GregorR> But, the Plof3 spec /does/ say "to be completed" or something like that :P
18:15:10 <GregorR> "this list is horrendously incomplete" in fact :P
18:15:34 <RodgerTheGreat> interesting how often "I'll finish this momentarily" becomes "I'll never finish this" on the internet
18:16:58 <GregorR> I find that things are EITHER completed immediately or never. There is no "within a month"
18:18:15 <RodgerTheGreat> sometimes projects defy that, but every time they slip onto the back burner there's a greater chance they'll never come back
18:23:00 <SimonRC> I never realised how crap mamalian lungs were
18:23:02 <SimonRC> http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/birdrespiration.html
18:32:31 <oklopol> GregorR: i've gotten a lot of things implemented within a month, though usually that has meant stalling for a few weeks, then doing it in 2 hours once i already know what to write
18:32:37 <oklopol> but that's the general case, i have to admit
18:32:46 <oklopol> also, what am i doing in irc again.
18:33:14 <oklopol> and, i meant i didn't read the spec that well exactly because it said 2to be completed"
18:34:02 <GregorR> Typing on a Commodore 64? [joke no one will get]
18:34:30 <oklopol> wait, i'll try and get that by looking at my c64 keyboard on the floor...
18:34:53 <GregorR> I want to see if oklopol gets it first.
18:35:23 <oklopol> umm... this can't be my c64... it doesn't say c64 innit!
18:35:35 <oklopol> okay, explain, i seem to have lost it or something :P
18:37:42 <oklopol> i didn't know it's ever anywhere else
18:37:59 <GregorR> What keyboard layout is this?
18:38:35 <SimonRC> Um, shift+2 is a " here too
18:38:45 <oklopol> hah, GregorR, you're a freak! :)
18:39:01 <GregorR> SimonRC: Aren't you in Britain?
18:39:25 <GregorR> Why the hell would a British keyboard differ from an American keyboard? >_O
18:39:35 <oklopol> but... anyway... this is an outrage! where's my c64 :<<
18:39:46 <oklopol> i guess you might not know that.
18:40:10 <GregorR> Why the hell would a British keyboard differ from an American keyboard? O_<
18:41:09 <GregorR> Well anyway, I'm right because America > you 8-D
18:42:18 <oklopol> i'd say we all lose for using qwerty
18:42:49 <oklopol> that's a brave assumption though, since i don't actually know you're using it
18:43:16 <oklopol> (and i guess it doesn't have much to do with this :P)
18:44:28 <oklopol> das Band -> die Bnder, der Band -> die Bnde, die Band -> die Bands
18:44:42 <oklopol> ASDFuck with these germans
18:45:08 <oklopol> don't they understand gender is a confusing concept as it is!
18:45:36 * GregorR <3 genderless languages :P
18:48:39 <GregorR> Literally. We Lingua Franca'd your arse :P
18:51:38 <GregorR> What language are we speaking? QED.
18:51:44 <oklopol> if you compare with languages that can imitate english with lesser modifications to the root words
18:52:47 <oklopol> i don't see how the fact a language is used less kills the language itself
18:53:00 <GregorR> I never claimed to have killed your language ...
18:53:09 <oklopol> i may have misinterpreter your fancy words
18:53:23 <GregorR> Lingua franca = language of commerce/diplomacy/etc
18:53:27 <oklopol> i guess my ass != my language
18:53:56 <oklopol> the other one i speak *out of*, the other i talk *in*
18:54:15 <oklopol> there's a difference i didn't realize right away
19:44:50 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:50:12 -!- ehird` has joined.
20:02:27 <Sgeo> <GregorR> $ twopipe psoxi "egobfc2m Sgeo.bf"
20:02:27 <Sgeo> <GregorR> <Sgeo> Booting ...
20:02:27 <Sgeo> <GregorR> Segmentation fault
20:02:41 <Sgeo> What's that supposed to be?
20:03:26 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
20:03:48 * Sgeo is so **** tired
20:12:33 -!- jix has joined.
20:33:35 <Sgeo> Is the core PSOX spec done?
20:34:25 * Sgeo is incredibly tired
20:39:59 * Sgeo goes to begin implementing PSOX(!)
20:59:25 -!- kwertii has joined.
21:21:26 -!- GregorR has changed nick to _D6Gregor1RFeZi.
21:22:18 <Sgeo> _D6Gregor1RFeZi, hm?
21:25:47 <Sgeo> How do you get "mangled?":
21:27:04 <Sgeo> Why did you do that?
21:29:10 * _D6Gregor1RFeZi suggests that Sgeo look up "Name mangling" on wikipedia :P
21:30:11 <Sgeo> Why were you being mangled?
21:33:39 -!- _D6Gregor1RFeZi has changed nick to GregorR.
21:39:21 <ehird`> Sgeo: _D6Gregor1RFeZi is how D would mangle GregorR into a symbol name
21:47:16 -!- interact has joined.
21:48:06 -!- importantshock has joined.
21:49:01 <importantshock> so...anyone else looked at the mediadefender source code?
21:51:43 <Sgeo> mediadefender?
21:52:24 * Sgeo misread taht as PSP
21:56:01 <GregorR> I love how people that are bent on destroying piracy magically become bent on destroying P2P.
21:56:01 <GregorR> The Internet is P2P people! :P
21:56:01 <ehird`> one of the better analogies for piracy, although still flawed: "There is a machine that clones cars. Everyone has this machine, and the car companies still sell cars for lots of money. Piracy is cloning someone's car, when they give you permission to."
21:56:45 <GregorR> Manufacturers are gonna be PISSED OFF when we finally get matter replicators ^^
00:20:55 -!- clog has joined.
00:20:55 -!- clog has joined.
00:21:22 <Sgeo> Everything is a log!
00:21:27 <oklopol> clog logs our garbage, you know
00:21:49 <oklopol> isn't that "everything is a file" with append-only
00:22:05 <Tritonio> but how can I search about this: "if you do: cat file | readerapp and readerapp doesn't ever read the data from the stdin what happens to the data? where are they stored? how big is that buffer? blah blah"
00:22:28 <Sgeo> http://ircbrowse.com/channel/esoteric/20070920 doesn't seem to have picked things up..
00:22:47 <GregorR> Tritonio: By searching for a page explaining UNIX pipes from top to bottom and reading away.
00:22:52 <oklopol> google will tell you what you meant if you don't type the right search terms!
00:24:31 * Sgeo also needs time stuff in 0x04
00:24:49 <Sgeo> Any comments on the extra 0x00 after retrieving a line?
00:26:07 <oklopol> wow school doesn't start till 10 hours, how fun
00:27:04 <oklopol> i'm fairly sure i make mistakes of that magnitude a *lot*
00:27:20 <GregorR> I see that one a lot ... there must be a word in most languages like "till" with no direct translation.
00:28:06 <oklopol> you use what's usually translated into "into" in finnish.
00:28:25 <oklopol> though it's a suffix here, instead of a word
00:29:08 <oklopol> "until" is quite close to the meaning
00:29:45 <oklopol> too late for grammar right now
00:29:50 <Sgeo> What's the differenterence between "till" and "until"?
00:30:37 <GregorR> Maybe it was slang 200 years ago ...
00:30:50 <GregorR> All three forms are identical now.
00:31:02 <oklopol> you can use that in an english essay?
00:31:10 <GregorR> Well, I wouldn't use "'til"
00:31:18 <GregorR> But I don't think I'd get complaints for "till"
00:31:52 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
00:31:55 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+").
00:33:58 <oklopol> ah, "till" would've been used in my sentence if the time had been given absolutely instead of relatively
00:34:07 <oklopol> for 10 hours, but till noon
00:35:17 <oklopol> i was gradually becoming sure of that
00:35:19 <GregorR> I will not go to school for three hours. I will not go to school till noon.
00:35:51 <GregorR> untilexp = (until|'til|till) absolutetimeexp
00:37:01 <oklopol> while i haven't actually studied english grammar, i think i know all these rules given enough time to think
00:38:47 <oklopol> here, "enough" was 10 minutes, and i'm usually about this tired
00:38:57 <oklopol> perhaps it's time for some coke ->
00:52:46 <Tritonio> a game where you programs bugs' minds
00:59:04 <oklopol> my father also knows russian.
00:59:24 <oklopol> (i recently discovered he knew polish when there was a polish guy here..)
01:00:16 <oklopol> a guy that was on this channel
01:00:48 <Tritonio> it was a nickname thankfully then... ;-)
01:01:35 <Tritonio> no you didn't really have to. :-)
01:01:55 * Sgeo should really work on psox
01:02:03 <oklopol> i should've used the lojban name quotes.
01:03:31 <Tritonio> this lojban? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban
01:03:58 <oklopol> it has some nice ideas, nothing revolutionary
01:04:55 <oklopol> QUICK POLL: which of you ever made a conlang?
01:05:57 <Sgeo> I've done a lot of pseudomaths stuff, but not a conlang, afair
01:05:58 <Tritonio> a strange alphabet that uses e way to "encode" the position of the tonge teeth etc
01:05:59 <oklopol> i used to make alphabets all the time when i was a kid, i had 8 alphabets memorized
01:06:13 <oklopol> but none of my friends could memorize them so it wasn't that much fun :<
01:06:24 <Tritonio> i already have a friend that memorized it
01:06:36 <Sgeo> Including numbers that had negative absolute values..
01:06:43 <Tritonio> because if you remember the rules you can draw the symbols on your own
01:07:16 <oklopol> my friends weren't all that old at that time...
01:07:38 <Tritonio> and it is suppossed to be able and encode sound form different languages as well
01:08:07 <oklopol> hmm, i've been contemplating on something similar to that
01:08:12 <oklopol> do you have anything online?
01:08:32 <Tritonio> oklopol, are you talking to me?
01:09:23 <Tritonio> the link will start like this... http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~asimakias/img/
01:09:54 <Tritonio> i havn't finished writting the link
01:09:57 <oklopol> http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~asimakias/img/proglogo.png
01:10:28 <Tritonio> http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~asimakis/img/proglogo.png
01:10:36 <Tritonio> i misspelled my last name. lol
01:11:35 <Tritonio> that sounds like "m" in "mouse"
01:11:52 <Tritonio> the two dots are the nose. and dots mean sound.
01:12:00 <Tritonio> the horizontal line are the lips closed
01:12:09 <oklopol> oh, so it really is a face.
01:12:51 <GregorR> Now I'm looking at the other ones and seeing if similar hinting helps :)
01:14:02 <oklopol> hmm... is that "p" there aspirated..
01:14:21 <GregorR> oklopol: It looks pretty aspirated to me in that picture ;)
01:14:21 <Tritonio> and the vertical line means sudden movement.
01:14:29 <Tritonio> like moving your lips appart suddenly
01:14:53 <GregorR> It seems like you've gone a bit far with the actions ... half of these could be implicit.
01:14:55 <oklopol> GregorR: i meant in "prozak" :P
01:15:12 <GregorR> oklopol: Oh - English has no aspirated 'P' so fleh :P
01:15:28 <oklopol> then i'm using the wrong term.
01:15:35 <Sgeo> What's aspirated?
01:15:39 <oklopol> you say "ph" instead of "p".
01:15:46 <Tritonio> Aspirate As"pi*rate, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Aspirated; p. pr. &
01:15:47 <Tritonio> vb. n. Aspirating.] [L. aspiratus, p. p. of aspirare to
01:15:47 <Tritonio> breathe toward or upon, to add the breathing h; ad + spirare
01:15:47 <Tritonio> to breathe, blow. Cf. Aspire.]
01:15:47 <Tritonio> To pronounce with a breathing, an aspirate, or an h sound;
01:15:47 <Tritonio> as, we aspirate the words horse and house; to aspirate a
01:16:21 <oklopol> yes, but i meant that one phonetically
01:16:39 <GregorR> oklopol: I assure you, the English P is not aspirated.
01:16:52 <Tritonio> anyway the picture sais "programs"
01:17:36 <GregorR> oklopol: The pronunciation of the sound 'p' alone is aspirated because that's the only way you can pronounce it alone.
01:17:53 <GregorR> oklopol: Well, that you can pronounce it and be heard anyway :P
01:18:00 <GregorR> oklopol: But it's not pronounced in actual speech.
01:18:03 <Tritonio> oklopol, as for the impicit thing you mentioned. I didn't like to leave things implicit. so that everyone by applying the rules can decode the symbols.
01:18:17 <oklopol> the aspiration is there in the word "pay" for example.
01:18:34 <GregorR> Hmmm, not in my pronunciation ...
01:18:48 <oklopol> i can make you a sound clip.
01:19:29 <GregorR> Let me put it this way: The English language does not make a distinction between aspirated and unaspirated consonants. Whether any individual aspirates in any particular word is their accent, not the language.
01:19:43 <oklopol> http://www.answers.com/topic/pay?cat=biz-fin <<< p-h-ei.
01:19:59 <oklopol> americans have them aspirated.
01:20:00 <Tritonio> ancient greek had a nice way to organize sounds...
01:20:33 <GregorR> Now that's a highly aspirated pronunciation of that word X-D
01:20:42 <GregorR> I don't think I pronounce it like that in casual speech.
01:21:09 <oklopol> you do use it, though it's less audible in fast speech, naturally.
01:21:25 <oklopol> you notice the difference if i do the finnish non-aspirated version.
01:21:57 <oklopol> if you only know how to make an aspirated "p", it may be hard to think of it as "aspirated"
01:22:05 <Tritonio> i think that answers has made these recordings with a text-2-speech program
01:22:15 <oklopol> GregorR: that was an example
01:22:42 <oklopol> GregorR: was that a correction to what i said?
01:22:56 * Sgeo wants to hear the clip of non-aspirated..
01:23:02 <GregorR> oklopol: Give me a sound clip of a non-aspirated P and an aspirated P for comparison.
01:24:42 <oklopol> i'm not sure if that was a good one, i get a bit of a ramp frenzy or whaddyacallit
01:25:50 <oklopol> hard to pronounce english and only leave out the aspiration
01:26:02 <GregorR> So don't say an English word *shrugs*
01:26:03 <oklopol> but you should hear a clear "pee" without aspiration in the end.
01:26:20 <oklopol> it's already uploaded, too late!
01:27:01 <oklopol> http://vjn.fi/oklopol/r/urinating.wav
01:27:17 <oklopol> that's a bad recording, for i don't exactly have a mike.
01:27:26 <GregorR> Wait, that's the sound 'b'
01:28:20 <oklopol> someone with a non-aspirated "p" in their language would notice the difference.
01:28:35 <oklopol> sorry for the example sentence
01:28:56 <GregorR> To my ear, that sounds identical to 'b'.
01:30:00 <oklopol> http://vjn.fi/oklopol/r/pebe.wav
01:30:32 <GregorR> Wow, there is a difference O_O
01:30:44 <GregorR> I have no idea how to make that sound.
01:30:55 <oklopol> i'm fairly sure i did it correctly in the first clip too.l
01:31:01 <GregorR> And now I'm leaving for home :P
01:31:16 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: the first part or the second?
01:31:46 <oklopol> if you can spot abnormalities in it in an explicit way, do elaborate
01:31:58 <oklopol> i rarely get the chance to enhance my pronunciation
01:33:39 <oklopol> i wish i had american irl contacts, i'm sure i could perfect it with training (i guess there's not many lunatics who'd be willing to hone it with me.)
01:34:36 <oklopol> that's the best reason i can think of
01:35:10 <oklopol> (i do pretty good german/swedish too!)
01:35:25 <bsmntbombdood> "fuck me gently with a chainsaw. i like the way the blades feel on my genitals"
01:36:09 * Sgeo should go eat now..
01:37:45 <oklopol> http://vjn.fi/oklopol/r/terat.wav
01:38:35 <oklopol> (also remind me to advertise my bands in case i haven't done that yet)
01:40:35 <bsmntbombdood> audacity gives me a nice little error when it starts
01:41:35 <oklopol> i have a "sound recorder" program built-in
01:42:25 <oklopol> the native word would be sukupuolielimillni
01:43:11 <oklopol> nussi minua hellsti moottorisahalla
01:43:11 <oklopol> tert tuntuvat ihanilta genitaaleillani
01:48:08 <oklopol> i'm using a millimeter-in-diameter hole in my laptop for a mike.
01:53:13 <oklopol> btw, i can tell you the exact difference of unaspirated "p" and "b"
01:53:30 <oklopol> it's pretty simple, the vocal cords only do their humming in "b"
01:54:05 <oklopol> i think i didn't say that earlier
01:59:31 <oklopol> and "b" is the exact same except it's... what's the word...
02:02:48 -!- chatty has joined.
02:03:35 <oklopol> gotta go do some quick business ->
02:19:27 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined.
02:25:26 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
02:30:49 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
02:40:59 -!- bsmntbom1dood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
02:44:16 <oklopol> head feels weird, gotta sleep for a while
03:12:25 -!- cmeme has quit (Excess Flood).
03:13:03 -!- cmeme has joined.
03:18:58 -!- oerjan has joined.
03:34:26 <Sgeo> Question? Should PSOX functions that provide file descriptors return the descriptor, or accept a descriptor number from the client and use it if available?
03:35:24 * Sgeo is leaning towards 'return'..
03:52:59 -!- chatty has left (?).
04:37:23 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1190338381-deal.png
04:37:27 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1190345208-winds.png
05:21:17 <GregorR> I think I have a proper NPDA implementation. But I think it won't halt if you have a particularly stupid grammar, like a = a | epsilon
05:21:37 <GregorR> That is, any grammar that can accept an infinite string of nothing actively.
05:22:02 <GregorR> Erm, wait, I meant a = a a | epsilon
05:22:19 <GregorR> Anything that can resolve to an infinite number of epsilons.
05:22:24 <GregorR> I guess that's not a big problem X-P
05:22:50 <GregorR> Anyway, it will halt in every other scenario, it detects possibly-infinite recursion.
05:28:38 <oerjan> removing epsilons can be done as a preprocessing stage on the grammar
05:30:30 <GregorR> Is that true of all context-free grammars? I don't remember such a transformation 8-O
05:30:58 <oerjan> you can remove all except those on the initial token
05:31:10 <GregorR> Don't tell me, let me work it out.
05:31:18 <GregorR> I can probably reinvent this wheel :P
05:33:46 <GregorR> For each left that has an epsilon as an option on the right, remove the epsilon then add an option to each right containing that left.
05:34:16 <GregorR> Wow, that sentence made zero sense :P
05:34:32 -!- zuzu_ has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
05:34:32 -!- sekhmet has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
05:35:07 -!- zuzu_ has joined.
05:35:07 -!- sekhmet has joined.
05:35:33 -!- oerjan has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
05:35:41 -!- oerjan has joined.
05:35:47 <bsmntbombdood> whenever i scan a drawing there's smudges, dust, etc
05:36:31 <RodgerTheGreat> bsmntbombdood: not much- a little white correction, I scaled it down, and I flattened the color map a little
05:37:02 <RodgerTheGreat> I think a fair amount has to do with my scanner itself
05:38:16 <RodgerTheGreat> problem is, in inks like this it can lead to a somewhat rough look.
05:38:46 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1190349064-deal2.png
05:40:51 <oerjan> GregorR: note that you need to find out which tokens can be epsilons, it is not enough to look for literal ones
05:41:23 <RodgerTheGreat> here- I tweaked my filters a bit. That should give you more of what you wanted: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1190349207-deal3.png
05:42:10 <RodgerTheGreat> all of these were drawn on cheap printer paper with an "ultra-fine point" sharpie
05:42:17 <oerjan> at least i think it is easier that way.
05:42:38 <RodgerTheGreat> It sure as hell doesn't seem to "ultra-fine" in comparison with my .02mm technical drawing pens
05:44:23 <RodgerTheGreat> I was so happy when I found out that the MTU book store not only carries .3mm lead, but they have it in the entire hardness range!
05:45:08 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
05:47:37 <RodgerTheGreat> but I think by far my favorite drawing tool for causal work is a Pilot G2 gel pen.
05:48:03 <RodgerTheGreat> It feels and covers paper like a rollerball, with the precision of a ballpoint
05:48:41 -!- SEO_DUDE85 has joined.
05:48:52 <RodgerTheGreat> I wouldn't use it for anything I was planning to publish, but it has a nice feel for sketches
06:01:12 <bsmntbombdood> this "getting up at different times each day" is not working
06:12:00 -!- kwertii has quit (Client Quit).
06:54:34 <GregorR> I missed something in my NPDA interpreter, and it's really effing difficult to fix :( :( :(
06:55:07 <GregorR> My infinite recursion detector can't backtrack properly :(
07:44:55 -!- kwertii has joined.
07:57:14 -!- kwertii has quit (Client Quit).
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:04:42 <GregorR> It's a bit complicated, but it's pretty damn fast, detects infinite loops, and PARSES STRINGS INTO ANYTHING 8-D
08:06:13 <GregorR> I feel fairly accomplished right now 8-D
08:07:55 <GregorR> I'm parsing simple math strings into numbers ... WITH AN NPDA
09:24:47 -!- sebbu has joined.
09:25:22 <oklopol> GregorR: in case you're already parsing the parsing rules from plof stack language code, do show the code for math expressions
09:34:51 -!- oerjan has quit ("Lunch").
11:45:47 -!- notzeb has joined.
13:00:39 -!- notzeb has quit ("/lurk").
13:19:39 -!- SEO_DUDE85 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:25:43 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined.
14:36:25 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
14:47:20 <GregorR> NPDAs can't be universally translated into PDAs, can they? I would think that the stack actions munge up the translation rules.
14:49:15 -!- jix has joined.
15:04:11 <SimonRC> though D and ND FSMs are equivalent
15:05:38 -!- oerjan has joined.
15:05:56 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
15:05:59 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
15:08:33 <oerjan> NPDA's can parse general context-free grammars. deterministic PDA's can only parse LR(k) grammars or thereabouts.
15:08:50 <SimonRC> bsmntbom1dood: what is "TA"?
15:23:47 <oerjan> and how is that not exactly what one usually calls a Turing machine?
15:25:38 <GregorR> That a state machine + a tape = a Turing machine.
15:27:16 <GregorR> Unfortunately, I found a bug in my logic when making the infinite loop detection *sigh*
15:27:34 <GregorR> It can be fixed, but it's another layer of complexity and I don't have 100% certainty that this is the last one >_>
15:28:08 <SimonRC> so, you are trying to solve the Halting Problem...
15:28:16 <GregorR> This is an NPDA, the halting problem is solvable.
15:28:47 <GregorR> It's just a bit more of a PITA than the halting problem for NFSMs ^^
15:30:02 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
15:30:23 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
15:31:23 <GregorR> Anyway, it fails with grammars that have multiple infinite paths ending up at the same node, e.g. L = A | B | epsilon ; A = L "enda" ; B = L "endb"
15:31:38 <SimonRC> small WTF: Why can the address only be changed at this email-forwarding place at 7.15 am?
15:31:42 <GregorR> Fixable (I can detect multiple infinite paths), but I'm not confident that it's the last such problem I'll run into X_X
15:31:56 <GregorR> They probably have a cronjob that makes mass changes :P
15:31:59 <SimonRC> "This will take effect from 7.15 am tomorrow / this morning."
15:32:27 <oerjan> so you did not consider the epsilon-removing transformation?
16:07:27 <oerjan> this is disturbing. SimonRC's last three messages seemed to come in reverse order.
16:07:54 <oerjan> i had thought that at least between two given points things would be queued...
16:25:32 <GregorR> oerjan: My current work has nothing to do with the epsilon-removing transformation, that's up to the grammar->NPDA converter.
16:26:27 <GregorR> oerjan: A naive converter will always be capable of creating an NPDA that this can't detect loops in, but that's not a big problem since a good converter can indeed be written *shrugs*
16:31:25 <GregorR> It's just not worth it to make it that general, I just heed it for the specific case of compiled grammars :)
16:32:46 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has joined.
16:32:49 -!- oerjan has quit ("Out").
16:33:19 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has left (?).
16:37:13 <GregorR> I'm also starting to think that the case I discovered this morning isn't useful ... I'm finding it difficult to imagine a grammar legitimately written like that :P
16:37:49 <GregorR> And I suppose even it could be solved by removing left recursion.
16:38:27 <GregorR> Oh wait ... argh ... never mind, just figured out the simple case :(
16:38:42 <GregorR> addexp = mulexp | addexp + mulexp | addexp - mulexp
16:38:54 <GregorR> Multiple possible recursions through addexp.
16:42:46 -!- SEO_DUDE85 has joined.
16:58:56 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has joined.
17:02:00 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has left (?).
17:08:02 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:11:44 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has joined.
17:20:26 -!- navaburo has joined.
17:39:16 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has left (?).
17:43:58 <oklopol> he only does brief visits about once a month
17:45:55 <oklopol> SimonRC goes for a wak. <<< i misinterpreted this
17:55:02 <oklopol> (someone had to say it! :|)
17:58:50 <oklopol> http://mirror.servut.us/flash/bearhello.swf
17:59:43 <oerjan> it didn't get better when i googled wak
17:59:51 <oerjan> http://www.edenfantasys.com/masturbators/masturbation-sleeves/wak-pak-2000
18:02:27 <oerjan> mad genius, apparently
18:04:03 <oklopol> "waterproof, so you could take it to the shower or pool."
18:04:09 <oklopol> that'd be a hit in a pool party!
18:04:35 <oklopol> hey guys, come check this out, you can masturbate AND see your penis AT THE SAME TIME!
18:05:08 * oklopol should read german grammar
18:23:14 <bsmntbom1dood> it's like those little things little kids put on their arms in the pool
18:25:22 <GregorR> Only with more masturbation.
18:27:36 <g4lt-sb100> so you can have a moose knuckle in every set of pants :/
18:37:49 -!- bsmntbom1dood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
18:38:30 <GregorR> ........................................................
18:38:42 <GregorR> Has bsmntbombdood turned into a spambot?
18:39:08 <oerjan> beick bsmbtvbombdood ?
18:40:00 <g4lt-sb100> no, he just forgot typing to grind stupid web tricks
18:40:30 <oerjan> most of it makes sense if i assume his right hand was placed 1 key to far left
18:42:53 <GregorR> I was talking about "<bsmntbom1dood> ^^ little girl likes big dick"
18:45:30 <GregorR> I'm at work, I don't anticipate such a link to be SFW :P
18:45:46 <g4lt-sb100> speaking of which, bsmntbombdood you now owe me for the liquor I need to forget that
18:46:06 <oklopol> internet rule x: nothing is offensive on teh internet
18:47:30 <g4lt-sb100> internet rule y: nothing may be offensive, but there are a lot of things you need large quantities of liquor and/or eyebleach to forget
18:48:11 <GregorR> My NPDA takes .75 seconds to parse "1+2*3+4*5+6*7+8*9+10" 1000 times >_>
18:50:00 <oklopol> i can try what my python numbda interpreter takes
18:50:21 <GregorR> Well, that's not fair, it's not an NPDA :P
18:50:59 <oklopol> i'll still try, for i have no idea
18:51:08 <oklopol> just wanna know what it takes
18:53:48 <oklopol> i'll try what my math parser takes
18:53:50 <GregorR> Of course, that's not fair because your is in Python :P
18:54:05 <oklopol> yes, and definately not written efficiency in mind
18:54:22 <GregorR> This /was/ written with efficiency in mind to a certain degree :(
18:54:34 <GregorR> I did some nasty things with D dynamic arrays that should not be done ;)
18:56:11 <oklopol> now i wanna make a C parser...
18:56:21 <oklopol> a math expression parser in C :P
18:56:57 <oklopol> i definately don't wanna make a C parser
18:57:10 <GregorR> It's still not really fair since a simple math expression parser can't parse everything that an NDFA can ...
18:57:11 <oklopol> hmm, i'll try my java parser
18:57:24 <oklopol> i do know that, that's not my point
18:57:44 <oklopol> my point is to know if it's faster, like it's supposed to be since it's more spesific.
18:58:44 <GregorR> Strangely, this seems to be increasing linearly with longer expressions ... everything I know about NPDAs tells me this should be increasing exponentially...
19:00:21 <GregorR> Because the alternative is to arbitrarily limit the grammars, and that's a bit tough to do. I may not use an NPDA if it turns out to be too bad.
19:02:55 <oklopol> argh, i hate how java libraries always manage to lack everything one might actually need
19:03:25 <GregorR> Hey wait, does your math parser actually come out with an answer in the end? :)
19:03:31 <oklopol> python: "time python" into google, and on the first link a nice clock-function that gives a nice timestamp you can compare
19:03:52 <oklopol> hmm... i may have disabled that :O
19:05:33 <oklopol> 0.98 without evaluation, 1.05 with it
19:07:38 <GregorR> For only $29.99, you can get access to some of the Internet!
19:08:36 <GregorR> That's so many web sites I don't know what to do!
19:10:11 <GregorR> I should make this parse right->left instead of left->right
19:10:27 <GregorR> Then parsing left-recursive grammars, which are by far and away more common, would be more efficient.
19:11:00 <GregorR> Where's my RR(1) parser anyway ^^
19:11:12 <oerjan> what would anyone want to access google for if they cannot access the results? :D
19:12:01 <oerjan> brain damage within brain damage
19:13:01 <GregorR> I'll bet it can't access that.
19:13:04 <GregorR> Not at the hostname google.com
19:17:30 <oklopol> GregorR: the java one takes 31ms
19:17:57 <oklopol> took a bit to find a way to get a nice enought timestamp for java
19:18:01 <bsmntbombdood> either GregorR or oklopol needs to change their nick
19:18:17 -!- oklopol has changed nick to OklopoL.
19:18:47 -!- OklopoL has changed nick to oklokok.
19:19:41 <bsmntbombdood> it would make nicks of similar length farther apart in color
19:19:59 <oklokok> GregorR: 25 times faster than yours, and it's in JAVA, complain THAT :)
19:20:20 <GregorR> It's a hyperlimited parser you cheating loser!
19:21:10 * oklokok lols as he dies of blood loss
19:22:04 <oklokok> the python parser was pretty generic, though not as much so as yours
19:22:54 <oklokok> hmm... i'm pretty sure i've made at least *one* math expression parser in C...
19:23:37 <oklokok> unfortunately most of my programs are named by whacking the keyboard a bit to produce a unique random string
19:24:32 <oklokok> usually when i start coding, i don't have anything spesific in mind... so i just use a random name
19:25:23 <oklokok> i mean, was like that in my c/c++ time, nowadays i just do python, since c takes longer to write :(
19:27:09 <oklokok> omg, i found a stack language interpreter here :DD
19:27:19 <oklokok> wonder if that's any good...
19:28:26 <oklokok> ...brainfuck while loops in a stack language ftw.
19:30:11 <GregorR> The time taken to memoize my REs is equal to the time taken to run the REs X-P
19:31:44 <oklokok> wow, my wireworld implementation
19:32:04 <oklokok> i wonder how much stuff i've done i've completely forgotten about
19:44:47 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
20:03:34 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
20:08:37 -!- Arrogant has joined.
20:11:13 -!- Arrogant has quit (Client Quit).
20:11:52 -!- Arrogant has joined.
20:23:05 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
20:34:08 <GregorR> I figured out how to fix my problem with multiple infinite recursions!
20:34:23 <GregorR> I'm already encapsulating the concept of infinite patterns on the stack...
20:34:38 <GregorR> To support this, I just need to encapsulate the concept of infinite^infinite patterns on the stack!
20:34:44 <GregorR> (Which is actually really easy)
20:39:45 <bsmntbombdood> weird how a PDA isn't turing complete, even though it has unbounded storage
20:40:02 <GregorR> Well, it has heavily-bounded access :)
20:41:48 -!- RedDak has joined.
20:53:47 <GregorR> Implemented with no change in time ^^
20:53:57 <GregorR> (And unit tests still passing)
20:55:22 <oklokok> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p454332531.txt <<< in case you can decipher that, do you like that program structure?
20:55:59 <oklokok> the actual program logic is in the form of a bnf-ish list regex (not clearly visible there...)
20:56:09 <oklokok> "bnf-ish list regex"... anyway.
20:57:39 <oklokok> the last line defines the program as a finite state machine
20:58:21 <oklokok> the three first ones are function definitions
20:58:26 <GregorR> Incidentally, your description reminds me of Plof's runtime grammars :P
20:58:46 <oklokok> that is the oklotalk list regex syntax :)
20:59:08 <GregorR> They are defined as a BNF with both the symbol list and generations.
20:59:32 <GregorR> addexp = addexp /\+/ mulexp => 3 1 "opAdd" dot call
20:59:42 <GregorR> So as it parses, it compiles.
20:59:57 <GregorR> Your desc reminded me of that, but that may be invalid :P
21:00:11 <oklokok> [/input_number (quit_on_zero | out_doubled recurse)] means the "regex" is run by executing one function at a time, x | y means "execute either x or y", and whitespace separation just means that you do the functions in sequence
21:00:45 <oklokok> those names in the regex are function calls
21:01:05 <oklokok> scoping is dynamic when using ...i don't know what to call that, but that kind of calls.
21:01:46 <oklokok> since it's nice to have a global access to stuff or the fsm for the program flow will become cluttered with argument passing...
21:02:35 <oklokok> basically that means, first input a number, then either quit if the input number was zero, or print that number doubled start over
21:02:58 <oklokok> so that'd be a simple command line program to ask numbers and multiply them by two
21:03:46 <oklokok> that can be done much simpler using other constructs, i know, but i kinda like my idea for a program structure, that fsm thing i mean
21:04:06 <oklokok> since usually the program flow is simple and stateful
21:04:31 <oklokok> did you manage to parse that?
21:05:10 <oklokok> [/ ... ] denotes a list regex
21:09:25 <oklokok> hehe, it's actually wrong.
21:09:36 * GregorR is still confused, but is also at work :P
21:09:39 <oklokok> i'll change it if someone points out the error :P
21:09:49 <oklokok> my friend just glanced at it and got it :|
21:10:13 -!- CShadowRun has joined.
21:11:34 -!- CShadowRun has left (?).
21:12:56 <GregorR> (There isn't even a Wikipedia article on it :P )
21:13:56 <oklokok> GregorR: wanna specify what's obscure about that code? unless you're too busy
21:14:20 <GregorR> I guess I'm not so much confused by what each of the constructs are, but by what the whole thing actually /does/
21:14:32 <oklokok> (oklokok) so that'd be a simple command line program to ask numbers and multiply them by two
21:14:51 <oklokok> didn't i say that already...
21:15:00 <oklokok> [/input_number (quit_on_zero | out_doubled recurse)] means the "regex" is run by executing one function at a time, x | y means "execute either x or y", and whitespace separation just means that you do the functions in sequence <<< is this obscure?
21:15:16 <oklokok> the names there are function names, the functions defined above
21:15:37 <GregorR> So, some "consumptions" can actually just be actions, and others actually consume something.
21:15:41 <oklokok> i kinda like that general idea for program structures
21:15:48 <GregorR> Yeah, that's exactly like Plof's runtime grammar :P
21:15:52 <oklokok> that isn't used for any kind of parsing there
21:15:58 <oklokok> that might've confused you
21:16:11 <oklokok> well, it kinda consumes the stdio
21:16:36 <GregorR> Right, but the program logic is written into a parser, as I see it...
21:16:41 <oklokok> you would do games etc. the same way
21:16:54 <oklokok> you'd write the states in a list regex
21:17:18 <GregorR> OK, I'm getting it better now.
21:17:47 <GregorR> Is this intended to be esoteric?
21:18:03 <oklokok> well, in that it's a new concept (i mean, i don't know it exists yet)
21:18:20 <oklokok> also, oklotalk looks like line noise when used correctly.
21:18:30 <oklokok> i've just denoicified it to be pretty
21:18:37 <oklokok> i'm aiming for pretty design, ugly code.
21:18:45 <GregorR> That's a fundamental difference between oklotalk and Plof X-P
21:18:56 <GregorR> Although Plof stack code is pretty ugly ... unless you like Forth.
21:19:56 <oklokok> well, you can do anything in a clean way if you want in oklotalk, in case you find that code example anywhere close to clean
21:21:29 <oklokok> i think that state thing is a more fundamental difference than what code looks like... since even though i concocted that this morning, i'm aiming at making it the *gist* of oklotalk
21:22:00 <GregorR> Well, certainly the entire design is a /more/ fundamental difference ;)
21:24:57 <oklokok> i don't remember what similarities i found earlier between oklotalk and plof, can i see a plof user language spec?
21:25:08 <oklokok> or was that integrated in the stack language spec?
21:25:39 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/plof/ < look at the Plof2 spec. The Plof3 user language will be similar.
21:25:59 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/plof/npda.d // my NPDA interpreter (now actually published)
21:27:25 <oklokok> Unlike C and other imperative languages, functions in Plof exist only as
21:27:25 <oklokok> anonymous entities - they are not implicitly associated with names. Giving a
21:27:25 <oklokok> function a name is simply assigning it to a variable.
21:27:43 <oklokok> these similarities seem less revolutionary now that i've studied a bit more theory...
21:28:10 <GregorR> That's pretty common for functional languages, it's only interesting because Plof is not a functional language per se.
21:28:26 <oklokok> that was one of my "great ideas" for oklotalk, but i now realize plof isn't the only language besides oklotalk that has only lambdas for functions...
21:28:48 <GregorR> How about only having functions for blocks? :)
21:29:05 <oklokok> i think that was a great idea for an imperative language
21:29:08 <GregorR> (Also exceedingly common for functional languages)
21:29:42 <oklokok> oklotalk is functional, i guess, though it depends highly on message passing, which might be considered a bit different
21:30:59 <oklokok> when i read about that block thing, it felt like an exaplanation for blocks, which is why i think it seemed like such a nice idea
21:31:22 <oklokok> i mean, explanation for blocks as found in languages like C
21:32:29 <oklokok> a lot of the stuff i found great about plof i later found in perl ;)
21:32:39 <GregorR> Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
21:32:44 <GregorR> Perl is so baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad :(
21:33:26 <oklokok> well, plof exclusively has perl stuff i found great about perl
21:33:35 <oklokok> i found 90% of perl complete bullshit
21:34:40 <oklokok> that prototype model for one
21:35:12 <oklokok> i should be more careful how i connect my sentences
21:35:19 <oklokok> also, i should eat something
21:35:21 <GregorR> Why the hell are prototypes implemented so poorly in so many languages? X_X
21:35:38 <oklokok> i don't know many languages with prototypes, so hard to say :|
21:35:55 <oklokok> plof did that absolutely brilliantly, btw
21:36:02 <GregorR> You're damn right it did ;)
21:36:09 <oklokok> that was something i actually considered stealing :)
21:36:25 <oklokok> but i've found a different way to do it in oklotalk
21:36:43 <oklokok> not necessarily better, but different :)
21:37:21 <oklokok> (i'm willing to go great lengths to avoid making stuff primitive, it should all arise from the perfectness of the core language!)
21:38:31 <GregorR> That's the core reason for my runtime grammar: I want integers to be a runtime-defined type.
21:39:14 <GregorR> I'm going to have the primitive types in Plof3, but they won't be exposed to the user language.
21:39:28 <oklokok> oklotalk even has stuff like "import" for modules non-primitive :)
21:39:38 <oklokok> that might be considered ugly.
21:40:28 <oklokok> since that's something you absolutely want to be a compile-time error, for one :)
21:41:19 <oklokok> oklotalk only has runtime errors, no other, because of the heavy meta-programming, compile-time errors would only take you sofar anyway
21:41:26 <oklokok> and syntax errors are simply impossible.
21:41:47 <GregorR> Heh, syntax errors are definitely possible in Plof :P
21:41:59 <GregorR> If you type $$$?!?!??@#!$#$#HAWHAW it will be quite failurific ;)
21:42:16 <oklokok> that *might* just be considered ugly too.l
21:42:34 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving").
21:42:43 <oklokok> that would be a compile-time warning, most likely, unless the interpreter is for obfuscation purposes :)
21:43:34 <oklokok> i do very random hyphenation :P
21:43:48 <oklokok> but natives do that so much i really don't even know the rules for every case
21:43:51 <GregorR> Uh, that hyphen was correct, actually.
21:44:01 <GregorR> I was laughing at the concept of having a compile time ;)
21:44:30 <oklokok> because of "interpreter"?`
21:44:47 <GregorR> No, because Plof rolls compilation into runtime (with the runtime grammar) :P
21:44:50 <oklokok> because i could never make a compiler? :)
21:44:58 -!- possible248 has joined.
21:45:07 <oklokok> fuck, i find two possible meanings for your joke and it's neither.
21:45:44 <GregorR> Aaaaaaaaaanyway ... when I get home, I'm doing more performance-testing of this NPDA.
21:45:52 <GregorR> I want to really see how much I'm losing on LALR (for example)
21:46:14 <GregorR> Gooooooooooooooogle is your friend :P
21:46:32 <GregorR> (LALR is the kind of parser that Bison/Yacc makes)
21:47:11 <oklokok> i thought you meant something like garbage collection
21:47:55 <GregorR> My poor grammar in that sentence probably helped none 8-D
21:48:02 <GregorR> s/losing on/losing with respect to/
21:48:49 <oklokok> yep, though it might've been "in" if it'd had something to do with locating the bottleneck in your code
21:50:11 -!- possible248 has left (?).
21:50:35 <oklokok> umm... js did function == object?
21:51:05 <oklokok> i mean, you used "function" to create an object
21:51:41 <oklokok> i understand doing function==object, but if you have a keyword "function"...
21:51:52 <oklokok> ...why not make it mean a function?
21:52:04 <GregorR> I can understand doing the opposite, making functions be a kind of object.
21:52:15 <GregorR> But what they did was make an object be the leftover state from a function.
21:52:24 -!- kwertii has joined.
21:54:48 <oklokok> how does js do inheritance?
21:54:56 <oklokok> i can google that too i guess :)
21:56:46 <GregorR> Pretty similarly to Plof, you can combine objects.
21:56:52 <oklokok> this.inheritFrom = superClass;
21:56:58 <oklokok> that is some ugly shit if you ask me
21:57:19 <GregorR> I thought you could + objects?
21:57:32 <oklokok> in case that inheritFrom is a keyword or smth
21:57:32 <GregorR> I guess not ... I haven't actually used JS's object system extensively, because it makes me cry.
21:58:08 <GregorR> No, inheritFrom isn't a keyword, it's taking advantage of the difference between new someCall() and someCall()
21:58:42 <oklokok> you could have had this.iF = superClass; ?
21:59:13 <oklokok> that's some weird name scoping...
21:59:30 <GregorR> You're basically giving yourself the other constructor, but as just a function, then calling it.
21:59:32 <oklokok> well, normal dynamic scoping i guess
22:00:35 <oklokok> js does duck-typing, right?
22:00:50 <oklokok> or am i totally misinterpreting that weird function assignment that's going on
22:01:13 <oklokok> not weird, really, but anyway
22:01:36 <GregorR> Yeah, JS is duck-typing only.
22:01:49 <GregorR> Unlike Plof which keeps type history to allow for static typing when preferable.
22:08:07 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:15:47 <Sgeo> http://www.glumbert.com/media/highpower
22:15:47 -!- ehird` has joined.
22:24:49 -!- Arrogant has joined.
22:34:43 <GregorR> For reasons I may never understand, my NPDA parser seems to be operating with linear complexity ... even though that's impossible. I need a more complex grammar :P
22:36:41 <ehird`> Quick, publish your code
22:36:48 <ehird`> You may have discovered how to do the impossible!
22:37:01 <ehird`> You'll be famous amfous!
22:37:11 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/plof/npda.d :P
22:37:37 <GregorR> I guess my grammar is just not complicated enough. It has left recursion, which is the mark of slowocity, but apparently it's not slow enough.
22:48:31 <ehird`> linear complexity = yaey
22:48:39 <ehird`> even if it IS impossible..
22:48:45 <GregorR> I want to see what the true complexity of this parser is.
22:48:59 <GregorR> I need a grammar sufficiently complex that this will approach its maximum order.
22:49:22 <ehird`> it's clearly the first O(n) parser ever
22:49:48 <GregorR> I'll bet Forth's parser is O(n) ;)
22:50:58 <ehird`> yes, the identity function is generally O(n)
22:51:05 <ehird`> forth's parser is O(1)
22:51:14 <GregorR> Eh, Forth still needs to /tokenize/
22:51:38 <oklokok> my bitxtreme parser is O(1)
22:52:54 <ehird`> GregorR: Yeah, but that's not parsing
22:53:02 <ehird`> oklokok: that's O(n)...
22:53:33 <ehird`> GregorR: please tell oklokok why his parser is O(n) i can't be bothered
22:53:36 <oklokok> bitxtreme, however, is a bit more *extreme*
22:54:16 <GregorR> bitxtreme has an equal upper and lowerbound on the length of the program.
22:54:26 <oklokok> ehird`: it's O(1), it's not O(n) because that split will always be splitting a string of length 2
22:54:49 <GregorR> So, I think it would be reasonable to say that it's in O(n), but n is actually a constant, so O(1) :P
22:55:27 <GregorR> (Within the limits of bounded memory)
22:55:48 <oklokok> but that's somthing you need to live with
22:56:34 <oklokok> uh, it's no extreme... i need more wine ->
23:04:35 <oklokok> GregorR: do you know perl?
23:05:03 <oklokok> it does prototypes quite like plof, right?
23:05:16 <oklokok> or was it duck-typed too, i forget :|
23:05:30 <GregorR> It does classes with duck typing.
23:05:48 <oklokok> but isn't there a similar inheritance tree as in plof?
23:06:43 <GregorR> Well yeah, but that's just because it has classes :P
23:07:42 <oklokok> oh, i guess i totally remember it wrong, i'll do some reading now
23:09:20 <oklokok> value, but the only mutable part of a function is the scope in which it will be
23:09:37 <oklokok> how freely can you change that?
23:10:11 <oklokok> i mean, do you have access to the variable environment?
23:10:44 <GregorR> I had intended for you to be able to set it explicitly.
23:10:51 <GregorR> Like foo.scope = someobject;
23:10:54 <GregorR> I may have even implemented that ;)
23:11:03 <oklokok> well... i guess... but i don't think of "scope" as a generic name->value dictionary
23:11:09 <oklokok> but a more abstract thingie
23:13:55 <oklokok> hmm... why are ++ and -- both pre- and postfix?
23:14:16 <oklokok> or is C-ity that important?
23:16:18 <oklokok> good, because i'd have had to tell you that ;)
23:18:08 <oklokok> the spec isn't too clear about booleans... there's no "boolean" primitive, but you say stuff like "evaluates to true"
23:18:18 <oklokok> hmm, you might explain what evaluates to true and what doesn't
23:20:11 <oklokok> Assign the value to the given lval. Note that, unlike in C, this
23:20:11 <oklokok> operator evaluates to void: That is, expressions such as
23:20:13 <GregorR> I'm pretty sure I /do/ explain what evaluates to true and what doesn't.
23:20:26 <oklokok> i'm pretty sure you do, too
23:20:31 <oklokok> i just usually talk before i think
23:20:42 <oklokok> but, i don't think that's correct there :)
23:21:27 <GregorR> Non-zero numbers, non-empty strings == fasle
23:21:32 <oklokok> unless "=" doesn't specify evaluation direction and it has to be explicitly parenthesized
23:21:34 <GregorR> Wow, that wasn't right X-D
23:21:59 <GregorR> Zero, empty strings and void = false
23:22:13 <oklokok> Note that this void value is not illegitimate. It can be assigned to a
23:22:13 <oklokok> variable, it can be tested, and it has a truth value (it is false).
23:22:26 <oklokok> That is, expressions such as a = b = c are invalid.
23:22:56 <GregorR> That's an excellent point. I do believe the expression a = b = c works, actually, it just isn't useful.
23:23:06 -!- RedDak has joined.
23:23:24 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:23:34 <GregorR> I'd have to verify that, but not right now.
23:23:37 -!- RedDak has joined.
23:23:57 <oklokok> is "=" left-to-right of right-to-left?
23:24:13 <oklokok> you might not have specified that in case you didn't realize that's legal...
23:24:36 <oklokok> i got that at the same instant you did
23:25:04 <oklokok> but i'm drunk, so i must be cleverer than you!
23:25:17 <GregorR> I'm at work, paying more attention to work than this convo :P
23:25:39 <oklokok> i could make excuses for hours.
23:26:26 <oklokok> do you mean making plof or actual work?
23:29:17 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
23:46:37 <ehird`> GregorR: x = "blah" = y
23:48:10 <oklokok> x = (y = "blah") would work
23:51:20 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:52:42 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving").
00:18:09 -!- edwardk has joined.
00:21:33 <oklokok> doing some work on my language
00:22:16 <edwardk> i'm sitting here doing basically the same with a stripped down version of mine as well =)
00:23:09 <edwardk> which i guess could basically be described as a haskell without types at this point
00:23:13 <oklokok> oklotalk, my everlasting project
00:23:49 <oklokok> that's what happens when you don't think of a name for your language and someone asks what the name is...
00:24:24 <edwardk> mine has gone through a few names, so i typically just refer to it as 'my toy language' =)
00:24:55 <edwardk> nuel, kata, catalan, opt, and spec have all be the name at some point
00:25:09 <oklokok> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p454332531.txt <<< it's heavily based on finite state machines that are introduced via a regex-like syntax
00:25:19 <edwardk> i dropped nuel coz its no longer a curry howard correspondence of the display logic
00:25:23 <edwardk> kata is still in the running
00:25:27 <edwardk> catalan is an actual language ;)
00:25:36 <edwardk> opt and spec are still open
00:25:42 <edwardk> just need to pick something ;)
00:25:45 <oklokok> "opt" and "spec" are kinda reserved for other usage
00:25:57 <oklokok> not that that has ever stopped anyone :)
00:26:08 <edwardk> they acronymed nicely into what i was doing
00:26:31 <edwardk> and the running joke of my friends is that my language name is 'x, where x is a variable to be determined later'
00:27:26 <edwardk> however, the acronym's for those describe the full language design and not the kinda fun stripped down version that i'm playing with now
00:29:34 <edwardk> so what is the premise of oklotalk? =)
00:30:31 <edwardk> its a language where i was exploring substructural type systems to start with, thats where the humor lies
00:30:43 <edwardk> since its all about type safety =)
00:31:06 <RodgerTheGreat> my main "pet" languages have been "Synthesys", "Lojo" and "Sprocket", the third of which was actually fully implemented.
00:31:29 <RodgerTheGreat> and Sprocket incorporates the best ideas from Synthesys in a more usable fashion, so no loss there
00:31:33 <oklokok> yeah, i've read every conversation you've had about your language on this channel, edwardk, though i haven't understood more than a third :)
00:31:50 <edwardk> basically at this point in time i'm trying to see if i can rederive most of the power of a traditional type theory through flow analysis and a simplist theorem prover over a basic universal type
00:32:47 <RodgerTheGreat> I started out with imperative designs, drifted into stack-based variants, and am now finding myself designing increasingly functional-style languages
00:32:53 <edwardk> i had started building up over a pretty powerful base type system, which didn't leave the theorem prover much to do, so i figured it was a more interesting result to see not if i could augment the power of a type system, but instead how much of it i could supplant
00:32:59 <oklokok> i'm trying to find a way to check for straights in tic-tac-toe using my language...
00:33:23 <RodgerTheGreat> oklokok: I've never seen a particularly elegant algo for that in any language
00:33:25 <edwardk> i went sort of the same path, i went imperative, drifted into computer algebra system designs, and now i'm functional with lazy semantics and optimistic evaluation
00:33:42 <RodgerTheGreat> the board is too small to really optimize the problem for without increasing overhead
00:38:42 -!- ehird` has quit.
00:39:34 <edwardk> oklo: in any event i've currently got none of the type features enabled including the substructural things, so its not that hard to understand its current behavior its more or less haskell and erlang's bastard child.
00:39:52 <oklokok> i'm doing it the brute force way first, since the technique i'm using is still under constructino
00:40:12 <RodgerTheGreat> edwardk: my language "Sprocket" is the bastard child of LISP and PostScript. :D
00:40:27 <oklokok> RodgerTheGreat: as you prolly guessed, i read that without the "never"
00:40:39 <oklokok> "any" sounded kinda weird there indeed :)
00:41:11 <oklokok> have you done any implementing?
00:41:42 <edwardk> what i have right now is that anything starting in upper case is a 'constructor' ala haskell's data constructors, and you can specify an arity for them, and use pattern matching primitives, and a trick to make monads work without types.
00:42:51 <edwardk> yeah quite a bit. i had an interpreter and theorem prover for the full language working, now i have an interpreter i've been toying with for the stripped down language that i figure i'll sit down and finish up this weekend since i want to rewrite the parser completely to strip out the remnants of the old logic
00:44:00 <edwardk> what i need to get right is the pattern matcher since i use a strange rule when compared to haskell or language's like that, because my rule lets me work around my lack of typeclasses
00:44:16 <edwardk> and still provide haskell like 'magic ints' and 'overloaded' operators, etc.
00:44:50 <RodgerTheGreat> how much of the language is intended to be primitive, versus synthetic?
00:44:54 <oklokok> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p645463521.txt <<< checking for lines is currently done in an ugly prolog way :)
00:45:02 <edwardk> in this version? not much =)
00:45:02 <oklokok> hopefully i'll find a better way tomorrow.
00:45:33 <oklokok> i'm fairly sure you can't decipher that, but it's a graphical tic-tac-toe with 3x3 array
00:46:03 <oklokok> "end" is pretty cluttered.
00:46:18 <oklokok> i'm gonna enhance the list regex syntax a *lot*
00:46:26 <edwardk> its got a pattern match dispatcher, and primitive bigint support through GMP. assignment is primitive, beyond that most traditional language features, if, booleans, etc. are built up in the language
00:46:38 <oklokok> it's just i invented that feature this morning, so it's a bit undeveloped yet :PO
00:46:56 <edwardk> heh at one point in time i had a typecheck operator and subtyping operator defined in the language in two lines of code =)
00:47:41 <oklokok> you do almost everything synthetically
00:47:43 <RodgerTheGreat> the following is a fairly unreadable but completely valid fibonacci sequence generator in Sprocket: [clear 1 disp 0 1 !fibo ] :run [copy rollup add copy disp copy 144 nequ [!fibo] if ] :fibo
00:47:45 <edwardk> i guess the code that was there wont make a lot of sense unless you know and love monads
00:48:20 <RodgerTheGreat> this is a bit easier to understand: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1190418036.html
00:49:36 <oklokok> edwardk: that was a slow continuation to "(oklokok) you do almost everything synthetically", not to monads, i'm pretty neutral about those ;)
00:50:12 <edwardk> the monad stuff is just so that i can evaluate lazily and not get tripped up
00:50:34 <oklokok> RodgerTheGreat: in oklotalk, [\1 1 {!-_+!--_}] is a fib generator :)
00:51:12 <oklokok> [\1 1{!-_+!--_}] if that space seemed like too much :P
00:52:06 <RodgerTheGreat> oklokok: the Sprocket version is still quite efficient.
00:52:38 <RodgerTheGreat> I've considered adding single-character versions of all the basic keywords, which ought to make some simple things a lot more compact
00:53:10 <edwardk> fibs = 0 : 1 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs)
00:53:30 <edwardk> in my setting those colons become semicolons but otherwise its the same
00:54:02 <oklokok> oklotalk will own pretty much any language in that exact sequence since i designed iterators to fit that purpose ;)
00:54:10 <edwardk> well, that is an infinite list so access any portion of it as needed
00:54:40 <oklokok> i did that for fun, then realized that's nice for many other uses too
00:54:43 <edwardk> main = putStrLn (take 20 fibs) would show the first few in haskell
00:54:50 <RodgerTheGreat> edwardk: hm. I'm thinking it'd be a little hard to directly compare that with another language.
00:55:09 <oklokok> edwardk: my code was also an infinite list, though codata has to be done in an explicit way in oklotalk
00:55:09 <edwardk> well if you just want a fib function rather than a generator list
00:55:56 <edwardk> fib 0 = 1;; fib 1 = 1;; fib n = fib (n - 1) + fib (n -2)
00:56:25 <oklokok> and you'd do (out ([\1 1{!-_+!--_}] ! (0..10))) for the first 11 numbers
00:56:28 <edwardk> the one above memoized that naive definition doesn't
00:56:40 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm thinking my creation is the closest to a normal language of the bunch
00:57:03 <edwardk> so a memoized functional version in my setting would be
00:57:23 <edwardk> nevermind i forgot i was overloading list accesses
00:57:29 <edwardk> so fibs 12 should just work above
00:57:51 <edwardk> since a list used as a 'function' is a function taking a number and returning its nth element
00:58:01 <oklokok> in oklotalk, there's no difference
00:58:43 <oklokok> [1 2 3 4](3) means you're interpreting the list as a function, and taking 4th element
00:59:17 <oklokok> (1;2;3;Nil) 1 = 2 <<< this is your language, not haskell, right?
00:59:19 <edwardk> in my case use of any type as the function in an application can be allowed
00:59:39 <edwardk> i can overload application
00:59:54 <edwardk> so arrays and lists take positions to dereference
01:00:34 <edwardk> also means you can pass in lists or arrays directly when something expects a function from nats (or in the array case anything indexable) to values.
01:01:51 -!- ihope has joined.
01:04:08 <oklokok> my bad, should know everything.
01:04:20 <oklokok> even the contents of your head
01:04:26 <edwardk> arity 1 Succ;; type Zero = Nat;; type (Succ n) | type n == Nat = Nat
01:04:34 <oklokok> hmm... that tic-tac-toe bugs me...
01:04:47 <oklokok> i don't want prolog, i want something beautiful
01:04:58 <oklokok> something fucking clever :P
01:05:09 <oklokok> i guess i'm onmy own there
01:05:17 <ihope> An arity keyword? What a travesty.
01:05:32 <edwardk> its a constructor based language without types
01:05:41 <edwardk> thats the only way i can tell you how many arguments that constructor takes
01:05:47 <edwardk> goes alongside infixl and infixr
01:06:50 <edwardk> any constructor without a specified arity has arity 0, so now anything that starts with an upper case letter is a constructor even with nothing else said
01:07:39 <edwardk> monads without types, its fun =)
01:07:52 <ihope> So what's the "type" keyword do if there are no types?
01:07:58 <edwardk> type there is a function =)
01:08:32 <edwardk> which takes the value Zero and returns the value Nat, and returns Nat when the condition is met in the second case above
01:09:35 <edwardk> you can do pretty much everything you want without adding 'type' to the language its just kinda useful for getting haskell-like typeclasses to work
01:09:50 <oklokok> it's useful for optimization too, i guess
01:09:59 <edwardk> coz how to overload + * /, etc?
01:10:12 <ihope> What's type Nat? :-)
01:10:27 <edwardk> a pattern match failure unless you specify =)
01:10:38 <edwardk> type Nat = Type;; type Type = Type
01:10:48 <edwardk> there now it has an impredicative type tower
01:11:00 <ihope> Impredicative type power?
01:11:21 <edwardk> arity 1 Type;; type Nat = Type 0;; type (Type n) = Type (n + 1)
01:11:24 <ihope> s/what I said/what I meant/
01:11:30 <edwardk> that would make it predicative
01:11:52 <ihope> Is this language lazy?
01:11:54 <edwardk> basically there are two ways to define a type system with multiple layers
01:13:28 <edwardk> one way you can define it has the sorts of types being types, and the other has them being kinds, and its whether the sort of kind is kind or superkind, and if that hierarchy keeps going up that tells you if you are predicative or impredicative.
01:14:26 <edwardk> in this setting i don't care about type systems, since they aren't needed to make monads work =)
01:14:56 <edwardk> arity 1 Ok;; return = Ok; Ok x >>= f = f x gives us an identity monad
01:15:22 <edwardk> mzero = Nil;; Nil >>= f = Nil together with the above gives us maybe
01:16:25 <edwardk> and rely on the monad laws to make 'Ok' work
01:20:13 <edwardk> is that an actual section marker symbol i see in that oklotalk code as part of the language?
01:21:00 <oklokok> currently using it for atoms
01:21:23 <oklokok> might change in case it's hard to access in non-finnish keyboards
01:21:29 <edwardk> so you don't have to deal with something like my upper case first letter rule
01:21:45 <edwardk> i used to use ' marks to note the beginning of an atom
01:21:50 <oklokok> lower-case first letter = parsed as a function
01:21:59 <oklokok> upper-case = parsed as a value
01:22:10 <oklokok> in the beginning = parsed as an atom
01:22:46 <oklokok> i don't see how that has anything to do with it
01:22:48 <edwardk> the need to have separate value and function roles
01:23:05 <oklokok> i just need to know what is a function and what is a value because everything is infix/prefix parsed
01:23:06 <edwardk> same reason that ML has val and fun or whatever
01:23:26 <oklokok> any sequence of "funcokens" and "objokens" is valid
01:23:51 <oklokok> 5+3+4 == 5p3p4 if you do p=+ first.
01:24:40 <oklokok> or then i'm misunderstanding something.
01:25:00 <oklokok> it's just there's no difference between operators, functions and lambdas
01:25:36 <oklokok> so you can do infix and prefix with lambdas as well as with operators
01:25:45 <edwardk> well, the issue as i'm thinking of it is why c has to have separate functions and value types. you need to distinguish between int foo() { ... } and int foo
01:26:10 <edwardk> whereas in a lazy language you don't have a need for a value/function distinction
01:26:43 <oklokok> you need to know whether "A B" means a list of A and B or "apply A to B"
01:26:55 <oklokok> a B means a (B), whereas A B means [A, B]
01:27:07 <oklokok> adjacent objokens mean an implicit list.
01:27:37 <oklokok> but indeed, it is strict, although you can't see it from that.
01:27:50 <edwardk> i inferred strict from the { ; ; ; } blocks ;)
01:28:26 <oklokok> i'm only making it strict because i'm not confident enough in my implementation skills
01:28:47 <oklokok> it will be lazy in version 2 :P
01:29:04 <oklokok> since i don't see why not be lazy
01:29:11 <edwardk> i'm currently lazy and side effect free, but i may revert to a pathological reduction rule i used to use that i like which is worst-case lazy or strict. whatever it wants to do. so you have to make sure all of your reductions are confluent.
01:29:37 <edwardk> and the only promise i make is i won't strictly reduce anything wrapped in a 'lazy' keyword
01:30:20 <oklokok> oklotalk has special syntax for introducing generators, those can be used for pretty much anything laziness can, though admittedly it's not as pretty
01:30:48 <edwardk> the basic issue is that you need to guarantee that your code would work no matter how it was evaluated strictly or lazily, but in exchange the compiler can partially evaluate a larger class of things and take optimization steps that are unsound in EITHER a lazy or a strict language
01:32:06 <oklokok> not specifying stuff is the key to efficient optimization
01:32:09 <edwardk> on the other hand you have the burden of both disciplines, you have the space reasoning issues of a lazy language and the need for explicit 'lazy' annotations of a strict language, though you don't have an explicit 'force', so you get a small win there. and you still have to reason about side effects via a monad or CPS or other trick like a lazy language
01:33:04 <oklokok> hmm, i don't see how laziness and side-effects relate
01:33:36 <edwardk> currently i'm using an 'optimistic with lazy semantics' rule which says it can waste work on things eagerly but it has to bound the amount of speculation and if it encounters an error while speculating it has to pretend it didn't happen and turn that speculation into a lazy thunk to be forced on demand.
01:34:11 <edwardk> so that you can encounter bottoms and not 'bottom' out, but you don't have to build as many thunks
01:34:47 <edwardk> but the antagonistic compiler is somewhat more amusing of a rule, since it hasn't been used as far as i can tell ;)
01:34:51 <oklokok> not sure what that means :P
01:35:31 <edwardk> a thunk is the unevaluated computation that when forced will give you the answer and overwrite it self with the answer, so that call-by-name evaluation works
01:36:26 <edwardk> call-by-name has thunks, call-by-need makes the thunk remember the answer it gave by self-modifying
01:36:37 <oklokok> now that i come to think of it, lazy evaluation is pretty trivial to implement.
01:37:21 <edwardk> pattern matching just checks to see if what you have is a thunk if so it tells the thunk to evaluate which makes sure the outermost constructor is a value, then you can inspect it
01:37:40 -!- ihope_ has joined.
01:37:51 <edwardk> in the ghc haskell compiler it does so by making everything into a 'thunk' with a function for the constructed values that just returns itself
01:39:29 <oklokok> 1 minutes of lag in my head
01:39:46 <edwardk> so basically a list 'cons' cell is a [Cons, x, xs] where cons is a pointer to a function that happens to just return the 'thunk' [Cons, x, xs] that it was given, so to force it you call the function at the start of the thunk and you inspect the value of the tag that it returns in the first position.
01:40:04 <edwardk> that way if you had a function like
01:40:12 <edwardk> repeat n = Cons n (repeat n)
01:40:20 <edwardk> then you'd encounter a thunk like
01:41:04 <edwardk> [Repeat, n] where Repeat was a function that takes that and constructs [Cons, n, [Repeat, n ]]
01:41:19 <edwardk> and hands it back for inspection
01:41:56 <edwardk> its the simplest model for compiled lazy evaluation i know
01:42:01 <oklokok> and when pattern matching occurs, it evaluates until there's an actual constructor as outermost
01:42:16 <oklokok> becoming [Cons, n, [Repeat, n ]], where repeat is [Cons, n, [Repeat, n ]]
01:42:54 <edwardk> yeah although that pattern matching routine doesn't have to loop explicitly because by calling that function which calls whatever other functions it has to call to reduce to 'weak head normal form' the recursion is implicit.
01:43:14 <edwardk> it just calls the one function and that thing takes care of all the details, but you have the right idea
01:43:41 <oklokok> you mean the actual caller will not have to care about the fact it has lazied out?
01:44:01 <oklokok> i mean, it doesn' have to know the object it's matching is actually a thunk
01:44:18 <edwardk> more or less, it knows it has to call the function that is in the first slot of the value it was given no matter what, then it can safely inspect the first value in the result that returns.
01:45:04 <edwardk> and laziness proceeds like that, outside-in.
01:46:05 <oklokok> i guess you can do the tree rewriting in any order as long as the result is as value-like as necessary
01:46:14 <edwardk> adding speculation muddies the waters a bit, you track a speculation depth cap, and rather than generate a thunk in the first place you try to run through it eagerly, but if you hit the cap you abort and return the thunk.
01:46:38 <oklokok> well yeah, but isn't that just optimization?
01:46:47 <edwardk> if you hit the cap too many times in the same place, then for performance reasons you disable speculation on that code point.
01:47:08 <edwardk> the semantics remain lazy, but evaluation can proceed eagerly in a lot of cases
01:47:52 <oklokok> if there are no infinite sequences and no side-effects, lazy evaluation and strict evaluation have no difference, am i right?
01:48:07 <oklokok> prolly not, but i don't know the difference.
01:48:10 <edwardk> the 'evil compiler' version of it, just allows me to reduce outside-in or inside-out as i choose
01:48:17 <oklokok> i mean, as far as the programmer is concerned..
01:48:37 <edwardk> they only have space and time efficiency tradeoffs in that case
01:48:47 <edwardk> which i think is perfectly reasonable to give the compiler more control over
01:49:03 <edwardk> no infinite loops and no side effects
01:49:42 <oklokok> sorry, i'm very slow right now
01:49:42 <edwardk> if you ever evaluate infinity you never stop
01:49:52 <oklokok> yes, indeed, i failed a bit there
01:49:58 <oklokok> i blame the wine and the time.
01:50:33 <edwardk> but in the absence of general recursion and general corecursion you can't tell the two apart without side effects
01:52:02 <oklokok> did you understand the oklotalk code btw?
01:52:04 <edwardk> productive corecursion is valid in a lazy setting, but not a strict-setting though, so the "devil's advocate" compiler design above might make productive corecursion into something that bottoms out and never returns
01:52:31 <edwardk> more or less, modulo the builtins
01:53:08 <oklokok> a few built-ins there indeed
01:53:34 <edwardk> productive corecursion being anything that you know returns an outermost constructor in a finite amount of time, the lazy counterpart to well-founded recursion which says your functions return
01:54:22 <oklokok> (i learned the term earlier today, but anyway :P)
01:55:01 <oklokok> hmm... don't know what that is :)
01:55:02 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
01:55:24 <edwardk> ah he's a guy over on #haskell who is fond of that terminology
01:55:46 <oklokok> read an article @ neighborhood of infinity
01:56:20 <edwardk> ok, dan piponi, yeah he's fond of that stuff too
01:57:01 <oklokok> oerjan also once mentioned corecursion some months ago
01:57:10 <oklokok> i didn't bother to check then
01:57:40 <edwardk> i've been obsessed with comonads and codata for a while, so corecursion naturally follows ;)
01:57:57 <oklokok> hmm... comonads sounds dangerous.
01:59:10 <edwardk> comonads aren't that weird. monads are easy to put things into but hard to deconstruct, they are like a container that won't let you in to get at the value you injected unless you follow some rigorous protocol.
01:59:43 <edwardk> on the other hand comonads are easy to deconstruct, fragile even, you can always remove a comonad from the value it contains, but they may be harder to put things in.
01:59:49 <oklokok> "they" there, which does it refer to?
02:00:05 <edwardk> how well do you know monads?
02:00:30 <oklokok> i guess i know what they are, but their usage is just too complicated
02:01:14 <ihope_> I think they're like any other tricky concept, really.
02:01:45 <edwardk> a monad just basically says that i can take a value of some basic type and always transform that value into a more complicated type. i.e. if i have a value of type a. i can always transform that into a function of type e -> a by just returning a constant function that ignores its argument
02:01:48 <ihope_> Look at it for a while, ask to see it in different directions, and either it suddenly clicks or slowly falls into place.
02:02:16 <ihope_> Say that you don't understand something, and someone will declare that it's easy to understand and give you one way to understand it :-)
02:02:17 <edwardk> or, if i have a value of type a, i can always generate a function of type s -> (a,s) which just copies the argument through to the second position of the result
02:03:01 <edwardk> and then there are rules for taking functions that worked on your previous 'a' and getting a function that works on e -> a or s -> (a,s)
02:03:36 <edwardk> so it was 'easy' to inject a value into it, but we have to follow some protocol to get the value out, we have to supply an e or an s in either case, and in the second case we had to strip off the superfluous (,s) term, etc.
02:03:46 <oklokok> ihope_: i don't have to say that, the explanation follows anyway ;)
02:03:54 <edwardk> some monads you may not be able to 'strip off' at all
02:04:49 <edwardk> on the other hand a monad is something that if given you could discard the candy wrapper if you wanted to and always extract the value without any work, but which still provide that framework of how to extend a function for the basic value to handle a comonadically wrapped value.
02:05:06 <edwardk> so i could always treat the pair (e,a) as a by just ignoring the (e,) part
02:05:43 <edwardk> so i can always rip off that 'context' comonad as that is called, i don't have to supply additional information like i did with the reader monad e -> a or the state monad s -> (a,s) above
02:06:35 <oklokok> i guess i have to admit i ain't exactly following :)
02:06:54 * edwardk stops his 'easy to understand and giving you one way to understand it' explanation =)
02:07:52 <oklokok> i think i lack the part of the brain that manages monads
02:07:56 <edwardk> i think of monads as a container you can put something in, and a way to take a container of containers and flatten it out to get a container. so for lists you can always take a value and make a singleton list out of it, and you can always take a list of lists and concatenate them to get a single list
02:08:45 <oklokok> the problem is i know that much, but monads seem to have something much deeper in them.
02:09:14 <edwardk> you can always take a value and transform it into a function that ignores its argument, turning a into e -> a, and you can take an e -> (e -> a) and transform that into a function of type e -> a by using your argument twice
02:09:37 <edwardk> whereas a comonad goes the other way
02:09:45 <ihope_> Oh, monads are really no harder than, um...
02:10:01 <ihope_> ...I can't think of anything I'm trying to understand but can't.
02:10:04 <oklokok> "you can take an e -> (e -> a) and transform that into a function of type e -> a by using your argument twice" << sure about this?
02:10:10 <edwardk> you can always extract an a from (e,a) and you can duplicate the context, you can always generate (e,(e,a) given (e,a) but with just an a you cant generate (e,a) for an arbitrary e.
02:10:29 <ihope_> join :: (e -> (e -> a)) -> e -> a
02:10:52 <oklokok> "by using your argument twice"
02:12:19 <edwardk> the monads as containers analogy leads to a sort of 'comonads as candy wrappers with a possible valuable prize' analogy, you can get rid of the comonad, but it might have value if you kept it around, it may provide you with something you can't do without it.
02:13:20 <edwardk> in that case it provides you with the ability to access the value of e. discarding the comonadic wrapper discards that value.
02:14:22 <edwardk> and if you want to bake your brain you can analyze the fact that (e,a) and e -> a provide the same functionality and go off into category theory and make grandiose statements about how 'Hom and Prod' are adjoint functors so those two things do the same thing monadically and comonadically, etc. and then you can go get a job on the mathematics faculty somewhere ;)
02:15:59 <edwardk> actually that notion comes probably a bit easier through the concept of currying
02:16:32 <edwardk> (a,b) -> c can always be rewritten as a -> (b -> c) sort of witnesses the connection between , and ->
02:17:03 <oklokok> hmm, (a,b) is not a tuple then?
02:17:20 <edwardk> that connection implies the existence of the (,)e comonad given the (->)e monad and vice versa
02:18:05 <edwardk> you can always rewrite a function that takes a pair of values as a function that takes one of them and returns a function that takes the other and returns the result of calling the function on the pair of the values it now holds
02:18:38 <oklokok> but different call syntax in haskell
02:19:15 <edwardk> though technically the haskell version lazily handles the latter pattern
02:19:34 <edwardk> uncurry f xy = f (fst xy) (snd xy)
03:00:55 -!- ihope_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
03:19:56 -!- navaburo has left (?).
03:36:09 <Sgeo> Any thoughts on PSOX </normal-mindless-drivvel>
03:51:16 -!- hieronymus310 has joined.
03:52:48 <Sgeo> Is '$ yes no | rm -r /tmp' a safe thing to do?
03:53:14 <Sgeo> hieronymus310, LOCATION_ERROR: IRP_NOT_SUPPORTED_IN_THIS_CHANNEL__SEE_TOPIC
03:53:38 <edwardk> sgeo: well, you don't usually want to remove the /tmp folder entirely
03:53:56 * Sgeo already did it :/
03:54:08 <Sgeo> Imean, not everything was deleted..
03:54:28 <Sgeo> OSHI--12.5MB from right after, down to 4.6MB
03:54:53 <Sgeo> of total freespace
03:55:17 <edwardk> the worry would be if it succeeded entirely and /tmp was gone (which probably wouldn't work on most unix implementations since it usually is mounted) then mktmp and those calls don't know where to dump their files
03:55:41 <Sgeo> It didn't succeed entirely
03:55:44 <edwardk> but the contents of /tmp you can blow away until your heart is content ;)
03:55:57 <edwardk> that was why i was qualifying my response =)
03:56:24 * Sgeo desperately needs the space
03:56:25 -!- hieronymus310 has left (?).
03:56:56 <Sgeo> WTF 4.0KB free?
03:57:52 <Sgeo> Make that 0bytes
03:58:17 * Sgeo has exactly 0bytes free on /
03:58:43 <edwardk> thats generally a bad place to be
03:58:50 <edwardk> is /var in your / partition?
03:59:15 <Sgeo> Probably, why?
03:59:27 <edwardk> if so you might be able to get some room by nuking stuff out of /var/log
03:59:45 <Sgeo> 9.1MB of stuff in /var/log
04:00:04 <edwardk> how much room is on this machine in total anyways?
04:01:07 <Sgeo> Um, howdoItell?
04:01:41 <edwardk> that'll tell you what partitions you have how full they are and how big they are
04:01:52 <Sgeo> /dev/sda7 136188044 130653632 24 100% /
04:02:17 <Sgeo> oh, 24KB freew
04:02:35 <Sgeo> I think all I did was close a text editor
04:02:49 <edwardk> and you have no separate user partition or anything?
04:03:02 <Sgeo> And decreasing?
04:03:03 <edwardk> just like linux installed on a workstation in one big fat partition?
04:03:40 <edwardk> do you know where the space went or is that just a black box at this point?
04:04:19 <Sgeo> A dir with MIDIs converted to OGGs, all Futurama seasons, a bunch of SWFs, a bunch of ISOs, and more stuff probabky
04:05:10 <edwardk> was worried it was just some process filling your drive with drek, now i realize the user is the process in question ;)
04:06:24 <Sgeo> ~/music/midi/all is 2.5GB
04:06:31 <Sgeo> Not a lot, in relation to, say, ISOs
04:06:59 <edwardk> heh my solution is usually to run down and buy another 500 gig drive and add it to the machine =)
04:08:09 * edwardk is pushing about 2.5TB on his desktop machine these days and just realized it.
04:08:50 <edwardk> mostly virtual pc images, etc.
04:15:18 <Sgeo> Down to 0b again
04:15:31 <Sgeo> /dev/sda7 136188044 130653656 0 100% /
04:15:41 <Sgeo> Why are the numbers different?
04:15:54 * edwardk watches sgeo find space episode by precious episode...
04:16:14 <edwardk> because some percentage of the drive space is reserve for root
04:16:25 * Sgeo will probably delete some ISOs
04:16:53 <edwardk> the justification is that if you have NO drivespace left on the root partition then root can't shuffle things around to fix a problem
04:17:46 <Sgeo> How much is reserved (too lazy to do simpleish math right now)
04:18:21 <edwardk> its like 10% traditionally, but the numbers are probably changed by now, and remember root has some files on the drive so some of that reserve is used
04:19:04 <Sgeo> But I can store more stuff by becoming root? Yipee!
04:19:49 <Sgeo> Buh-bye openSUSE-10.2
04:20:02 <edwardk> yeah, though if you get to the point you are currently at you risk not being able to mount the drive in the event that you have to fsck it or lack the room to record the transaction log, etc.
04:20:34 <Sgeo> You mean, if I use up root's space?
04:20:57 <Sgeo> What about LiveCDs?
04:21:09 <edwardk> on a drive that big you should be able to lower the reserve some though
04:21:28 <edwardk> they don't risk corruption on themselves because they are an iso image, they don't write back to themselves
04:21:44 <edwardk> they make a ramdisk or whatever and load up in that if it corrupts there is nothing to fsck-up =)
04:21:46 <Sgeo> Incidentally, I wouldn't have been able to use the openSUSE LiveDVD anyway.. can't burn DVDs, and only have 512MB so can't emulate..
04:22:08 <Sgeo> woohoo 1.7GB freed
04:22:23 <Sgeo> Um, how do I peek into a tgz file?
04:22:38 <Sgeo> I have 10GB locked up in a file called someisos.tgz
04:22:53 <Sgeo> I made that file after running out of space before
04:23:47 <Sgeo> This is taking a while
04:23:53 <Sgeo> There's Linux XP, which I remember hating
04:24:16 * Sgeo likes linux mint, although I should delete the 3.0 iso
04:24:45 <edwardk> you might consider just tunefs'ing to lower the reserve to like 5-6%
04:25:05 <edwardk> or whatever it is in your distro
04:25:50 * Sgeo decides he will delete the file after recording the filenames
04:25:57 <Sgeo> Thank you so very much BTW
04:26:15 <edwardk> sitting here trying to get something to compile anyways ;)
04:26:15 <Sgeo> hmm Xandros 302-OCE is in there..
04:26:31 <Sgeo> And a Linspire ISO
04:27:37 -!- edwardk has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
04:27:55 -!- edwardk has joined.
04:28:02 -!- kwertii has quit (Client Quit).
04:28:22 <edwardk> try: tune2fs -m 5 /dev/sda1 (or whatever drive it was)
04:28:28 <edwardk> and see what that does for you
04:28:38 * Sgeo isn;t sure he wants to adjust that.. he's reclaiming space..
04:28:46 <Sgeo> I now have 3.1GB free
04:29:13 <edwardk> 5% is safe, the traditional 10% threshold was set back in the 10mb harddrive era ;)
04:30:04 -!- oerjan has joined.
04:32:56 * edwardk notes that apparently linux distros switched to 5% a while back.
04:52:04 * oerjan notes the discussion about a=b=c in plof
04:52:47 <oerjan> it would have been interestingly weird if a=b was equal to b as lvalue
04:54:01 <oerjan> unfortunately plof is not esoteric ;)
04:54:36 * oerjan mentions GregorR, just in case he didn't see that.
05:06:28 -!- wooby has joined.
05:07:06 * Sgeo deletes a 10GB file
05:07:38 <oerjan> was there a *slurp* sound?
05:08:55 <Sgeo> My comp seemed to freeze for two seconds, though
05:09:23 <oerjan> probably /dev/null has some indigestion problem.
05:47:06 * Sgeo will probably add some stuff to seek through File Descriptors next time he works on PSOX
06:02:56 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat").
06:56:24 -!- edwardk has left (?).
07:13:50 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
07:25:41 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
09:22:47 -!- wooby has quit.
10:02:30 -!- SEO_DUDE85 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
11:34:19 -!- SEO_DUDE85 has joined.
11:54:50 -!- jix has joined.
12:23:43 -!- ihope_ has joined.
12:23:49 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to ihope.
14:20:02 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:45:42 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
15:02:21 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
15:02:31 -!- jix has joined.
15:04:40 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has joined.
15:18:19 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.7/2007091417]").
15:38:04 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has joined.
16:20:19 -!- edwardk has joined.
16:36:26 <ihope> It's another one of those greetings-only conversations.
16:36:39 <ihope> Hey all, ello, hi, hey, waves hello, hi, heya, ello.
16:49:26 <ihope> I think we can manage.
16:49:32 <ihope> Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | IRP in #irp
16:49:55 <ihope> All aspects of mathematics | www.freenode-math.com/ | Don't ask to ask. Ask. | Guidelines: www.freenode-math.com/index.php/Guidelines | Writing maths on IRC: http://xrl.us/ubdh | LaTeX paste: http://mathbin.net | Using mbot: www.freenode-math.com/index.php/Mbot | Off-topic? #not-math (this is not a joke)
16:50:07 <ihope> And I think we have some room for actual content, too.
16:50:08 <UnrelatedToQaz> Did you know you can construct logic gates using dominoes?
16:50:22 <ihope> I've been trying to do that for a while, actually.
16:51:22 <UnrelatedToQaz> For some, though, you have to have an input and a process channel.
16:51:35 <ihope> Though my logic gates would be more like "holes" that can be filled with dominoes if and only if a certain thing is true.
16:52:02 <UnrelatedToQaz> That's a curious way of doing it. What do you mean, exactly?
16:52:57 <ihope> I'll pastebin a diagram sort of thing.
16:55:49 <oklokok> heh dominoes, gotta get some of those
16:55:50 <ihope> http://pastebin.ca/707096
16:56:07 <oklokok> i've been thinking of making a computer using water and pipes
16:56:49 <ihope> Each hole is really a logic gate of its own, and putting two holes next to each other connects them. Each connection can be either filled or empty, and each hole must have exactly one filled connection.
16:57:17 <ihope> oklokok: haven't we all? :-)
16:57:53 <oklokok> i'm sure we have, it's just my current dream :)
16:58:34 <UnrelatedToQaz> No wonder I'm so confused. That diagram refers to dominoes laying down; my logic gates use dominoes standing up.
16:59:02 <UnrelatedToQaz> I'll append something to yours to show you what I mean.
16:59:41 <oklokok> i don't know much about physics, but you'd think water would work almost the same in a circuit as electricity
16:59:55 <oklokok> it doesn't have the magnetism stuff electricity does, obviously
17:00:09 <oklokok> i don't exactly know how important that is in a computer
17:00:52 <oklokok> computers are dc internally, right?
17:01:11 <oklokok> then there shouldn't be much magnetism involved
17:01:39 <oklokok> i should start reading about this stuff... school hasn't taught me shit :<
17:04:00 <oklokok> i don't get the # notation
17:04:52 <ihope> oklokok: each # represents a hole the size of half a domino.
17:05:19 * ihope attempts to build a stick bomb out of pencils: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stick_bomb
17:05:35 <ihope> I expect that pencils are much too stiff to actually do this.
17:07:45 <oklokok> http://www.lunatim.com/kinart/videos/videos.htm omg
17:08:17 <ihope> Mm, testing a pencil shows that it's impossible to do a certain simple weave.
17:12:08 <SimonRC> http://www.rebelscience.org/Crackpots/notorious.htm
17:12:33 <SimonRC> I would laugh more, but he goes on too much abt why i am wrong and won't admit it.
17:18:10 -!- Tritonio has joined.
17:24:14 <oklokok> "First of all, dt/dt does not equal 1 second per second. The units cancel out."
17:31:34 <ihope> It can't be said that it doesn't equal 1 second per second, but "1" is indeed probably a better way of putting it...
17:42:48 <SimonRC> a more interesting vector is found if you multiply that one by the mass
17:43:01 <SimonRC> you get a mass-and-momentum vector
17:45:06 -!- Arrogant has joined.
17:53:15 <bsmntbombdood> http://abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmntbombdood/drains/il-7.jpg <--- me
17:57:24 -!- ehird` has joined.
18:13:41 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has left (?).
18:14:57 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving").
19:28:40 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has joined.
19:30:24 <UnrelatedToQaz> Wow. I can't believe that all that's happened since I've been gone is that SimonRC has had dinner.
19:38:25 <oklokok> cool, i now have proof for something i claimed to my german teacher in the 5th grade
19:38:41 <oklokok> she would be so embarrassed if i showed this to her
19:39:55 <oklokok> (because who wouldn't remember a 7-year-old conversation vividly.)
19:45:47 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
20:04:55 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
20:15:42 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.7/2007091417]").
20:45:44 -!- oblivion2k has joined.
20:46:15 -!- oblivion2k has quit (Client Quit).
20:46:25 -!- oblivion2k has joined.
20:57:26 <oklokok> that germans occasionally way "zwo" for 2.
21:19:08 -!- ihope_ has joined.
21:36:12 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:10:02 -!- edwardk has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:13:21 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:35:44 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
23:48:20 -!- ihope_ has quit (Connection timed out).
23:49:21 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:12:54 -!- ehird` has quit.
00:13:27 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
00:38:55 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
00:42:19 -!- edward1 has joined.
00:51:25 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
01:05:19 -!- Eidolos has changed nick to Cartwright.
01:09:52 -!- Cartwright has changed nick to Eidolos.
01:32:04 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
01:53:37 -!- ihope_ has joined.
01:53:47 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to ihope.
02:18:05 -!- ihope_ has joined.
02:21:55 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
02:31:38 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
02:32:27 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote closed the connection).
02:40:42 -!- oblivion2k has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
02:43:44 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
02:58:26 <ihope_> M... hmm, where is that key... oh, here it is! e... um, aha, and here are the other ones! too.
03:01:10 <oklokok> hchstwahrscheinlich <<< 4 syllables, 20 letters, you gotta love this language :D
03:05:51 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
03:09:45 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
03:09:54 -!- jix has joined.
03:21:15 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
03:22:33 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
03:44:09 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined.
03:55:20 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
04:44:25 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit.
04:56:22 -!- bsmntbom1dood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
04:56:33 -!- ihope_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
05:54:46 -!- Arrogant has joined.
06:48:16 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving").
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
10:10:04 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection).
10:19:12 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has joined.
10:24:49 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has left (?).
11:02:45 -!- SEO_DUDE85 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
11:05:24 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has joined.
11:05:57 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has quit (Client Quit).
11:12:30 -!- SEO_DUDE85 has joined.
12:04:18 -!- jix has joined.
13:21:53 -!- ihope_ has joined.
13:22:32 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to ihope.
14:46:15 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out).
15:09:40 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
15:09:50 -!- jix has joined.
15:27:52 -!- ihope_ has joined.
15:28:11 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to ihope.
16:17:23 <oklokok> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p316533412.txt <<< this is what it's supposed to look like
16:18:03 <oklokok> i think you can find it by a second glance
16:18:30 <oklokok> the pattern is inconsistent there
16:18:56 <oklokok> there are channels you'd get kicked for a failure that big
16:19:13 <oklokok> (18:17:41) (+oklopol) okokokokokok
16:19:13 <oklokok> (18:17:42) kick: (oklopol) was kicked by (trazer) (BAD okoing to be.)
16:19:55 <SimonRC> ah, I wondered how only some of it ended up here
16:20:29 <oklokok> i used to train that an hour a day 8D
18:46:55 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:46:50 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
20:06:08 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
20:40:56 -!- RedDak has joined.
20:46:18 -!- edward1 has changed nick to edwardk.
20:53:02 -!- dak__ has joined.
21:07:30 -!- ehird` has joined.
21:11:28 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:20:38 -!- dak__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:42:10 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
21:47:27 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
21:56:49 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
23:05:46 -!- ehird` has quit.
00:14:26 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+").
00:30:09 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:30:55 <Sgeo> Would it be a bad thing to make seeking through file descriptors etc. be located at 0x10-0x19?
00:33:42 <Sgeo> 0x10 - switch outfile descriptor; 0x11 - switch infile descriptor; 0x12 - absolute seek through outfile descriptor; 0x13 - abs. seek through infile descriptor; 0x14 - rel. seek outfile; 0x15 - rel. seek infile; 0x16 - flush outfile; 0x17 - flush infile; 0x18 - close outfile and return to stdout; 0x19 - close infile and return to stdin
00:34:11 <Sgeo> All in System domain (0x02)
00:34:48 <Sgeo> Oh, and there will only be one pool for file descriptors
00:49:22 -!- edwardk has left (?).
00:56:16 <Sgeo> and GregorR and ihope and and and
01:18:16 <ihope> Sounds good to me; I dunno.
01:19:26 <pikhq> Probably not a bad thing.
01:20:41 <Sgeo> I guess for abs. seeks, 0 should be the first byte?
01:21:04 * Sgeo is going to have the seek functions require longnums, incidentally
01:21:32 <Sgeo> Making seeking 5 bytes forward on the outfile: 0x00 0x02 0x14 0x01 0x05 0x00 0x0A :/
01:21:50 <Sgeo> 5 bytes backward would be 0x00 0x02 0x14 0x02 0x05 0x00 0x0
01:22:20 <Sgeo> Too much overhead?
01:22:27 <Sgeo> Or is it ok if understood?
02:18:28 -!- ihope_ has joined.
02:19:31 <Sgeo> See http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt
02:19:38 <Sgeo> Under File Descriptors stuff
02:36:03 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out).
02:56:30 -!- edwardk has joined.
03:12:38 -!- edwardk has left (?).
03:29:49 -!- ihope_ has quit (Success).
05:48:59 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
07:24:50 -!- immibis has joined.
07:30:06 -!- immibis has left (?).
07:30:17 -!- immibis has joined.
07:31:44 <immibis> !daemon ctcp bf +[[-]+.,----------[++++++++++.,----------]+.+++++++++.]
07:32:14 <immibis> !!! i actually got it on my second try?
07:32:50 * EgoBot decides not to ping immybo
07:32:54 -!- cmeme has quit ("Client terminated by server").
07:33:05 -!- cmeme has joined.
07:33:14 -!- immybo has joined.
07:33:50 <EgoBot> I AM EGOBOT. BOW BEFORE ME!!!
07:34:10 <immybo> !cat I am immybo's slave!
07:34:34 <immybo> !cat You will bow before immybo!
07:34:36 <immibis> immybo, to make him use /me, say !ctcp ACTION tests
07:34:38 <EgoBot> You will bow before immybo!
07:34:45 <immibis> immybo, do it in a private chat
07:36:28 <EgoBot> I am immybo's slave. Bow before immibis!
07:37:44 -!- immybo has changed nick to immybo_.
07:44:34 <EgoBot> 63 +++++++++++[>+++++++++++>+++>>+<<<<-]>--.--------..---------.>. [124]
07:44:51 <immibis> !bf +++++++++++[>+++++++++++>+++>>+<<<<-]>--.--------..------ ---.>.
07:44:58 <immibis> !bf +++++++++++[>+++++++++++>+++>>+<<<<-]>--.--------..---------.>.
07:45:37 <immibis> 1x1 is equivalent to just x.
07:48:01 -!- toBogE has joined.
07:55:22 -!- immybo_ has quit ("For Sale: Parachute. Only used once, never opened, small stain.").
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:07:22 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!1(_o)on.?]}
08:10:39 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Test"(_o)o.?]}
08:11:44 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!1(_o)on.?]}
08:12:02 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!<1>(_o)on.?]}
08:12:08 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!<1>(_o)(on).?]}
08:12:14 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!<1>(_o)(on).?]}
08:32:37 -!- toBogE has quit (Connection reset by peer).
08:52:46 -!- immibis has quit ("Say What?").
09:37:36 -!- toBogEboT has joined.
09:39:11 -!- bsmntbot has joined.
09:41:05 -!- toBogEboT has left (?).
09:41:12 -!- immibis has joined.
09:41:42 -!- bsmntbot has changed nick to bsmnt_bot.
09:43:31 -!- bsmnt_bot has changed nick to WaiterBot.
09:44:55 * WaiterBot is making a decaf espresso coffee with an infinite number of sugars in a bucket with cold milk for this channel
09:44:55 * WaiterBot is making a decaf espresso coffee with an infinite number of sugars in a bucket with cold milk for #esoteric
09:44:56 * WaiterBot spills the channel's coffee into a Magnetic Laser Device
09:44:58 * WaiterBot spills #esoteric's coffee into a Magnetic Laser Device
09:45:03 * WaiterBot gives everyone in this channel a magnetic decaf espresso coffee with an infinite number of sugars in a bucket with cold milk which is emitting lots of blue light and a barely audible hum
09:45:06 * WaiterBot gives #esoteric a magnetic decaf espresso coffee with an infinite number of sugars in a bucket with cold milk which is emitting lots of blue light and a barely audible hum
09:47:17 * WaiterBot is making a decaf espresso orange juice with an infinite number of sugars in a petrol tanker with last year's milk for #arianne
09:47:22 * WaiterBot spills #arianne's coffee into a Magnetic Laser Device
09:47:32 * WaiterBot gives #arianne a magnetic decaf espresso orange juice with an infinite number of sugars in a petrol tanker with last year's milk which is emitting lots of blue light and a barely audible hum
09:47:50 <immibis> why are you making a decaf espresso orange juice with an infinite number of sugars in a petrol tanker with last year's milk for #arianne?
09:48:09 -!- WaiterBot has left (?).
09:55:25 -!- bsmntbot has joined.
09:55:43 -!- bsmntbot has changed nick to bsmnt_bot.
09:56:05 -!- bsmnt_bot has changed nick to WaiterBot.
09:57:05 <WaiterBot> #bots: <immibis> !persist factoid save
09:57:06 <WaiterBot> #bots: <toBogE> java.io.FileNotFoundException: factoid.toboge.old (The system cannot find the file specified)
09:57:10 <WaiterBot> #bots: <toBogE> immibis is my creator. All hail immibis!
09:57:48 -!- toBogE has joined.
09:58:04 <toBogE> java.io.FileNotFoundException: factoid.toboge.old (The system cannot find the file specified)
10:07:18 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC. Download Ic).
10:07:21 -!- toBogE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
10:07:24 -!- WaiterBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
10:37:11 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined.
10:42:35 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
10:49:10 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
11:00:29 -!- bsmntbom1dood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
11:15:27 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined.
11:20:50 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
12:17:14 -!- Sgeo has joined.
12:30:48 -!- SEO_DUDE85 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
12:46:04 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
13:56:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
14:51:55 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:09:35 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
15:32:59 -!- sebbu has joined.
16:06:24 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:10:52 -!- jix has joined.
16:13:44 -!- importantshock has joined.
16:14:35 <importantshock> nothing, just got back from my Software Engineering 1 class
16:14:46 <importantshock> where we were taught about the ! operator. exciting fucking stuff.
16:15:46 <importantshock> it is kind of fun, insofar as the rest of the class is "what the fuck is a pointer?" and i just sit back and smirk
16:16:39 <RodgerTheGreat> that sounds pretty much like my "Software development in C/C++" class.
16:17:00 <RodgerTheGreat> "HOLY POO WHAT IS DEREFERENCING I AM CONFUSED THIS IS HARD HURR"
16:18:05 <importantshock> he knows Haskell and SML and all of these languages i've never heard
16:18:47 <bsmntbom1dood> shouldn't you already know how to code in a software engineering class?
16:20:30 <RodgerTheGreat> in many cases, software engineering courses are organized as "Computer Science for people who dropped out of Computer Science"
16:21:04 -!- importantshock has quit ("Meh.").
16:21:23 <bsmntbom1dood> kids who can't code at all go into CS because they want to learn how to fix computers
16:21:37 <oklokok> there's one course in functional programming in the university \o/
16:21:58 <oklokok> well, it usually doesn't happen, too little people take it...
16:22:30 <RodgerTheGreat> bsmntbom1dood: all the CS- related courses get shit-tons of people there for the wrong reasons
16:22:56 <RodgerTheGreat> something about the average starting salary is probably the root of a great deal of that
16:24:58 <RodgerTheGreat> All of my classes positively seethe with terrible, terrible programmers
16:28:27 <oklokok> hey, you've got cs at least...
16:30:32 <RodgerTheGreat> my high school didn't have any damn programming classes, so quit your whining.
16:30:58 <oklokok> i'm talking about the university
16:31:31 -!- Tritonio has joined.
16:32:07 <oklokok> really, i asked the professor what other paradigms than oop are taught there, he said "there's occasionally one in functional programming, and i think we used to have one with AI"
16:32:52 <oklokok> might have used different quantifiers, but anyway, just a few real courses, and they aren't always even organized
16:33:03 <oklokok> heh, i guess he meant prolog :)
16:34:47 <oklokok> i guess i should ask fizzie for directions
16:55:21 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:52:39 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
17:52:49 -!- jix has joined.
18:12:14 <GregorR> RodgerTheGreat: The low-level CS courses get a lot of idiots due to the perceived (but not real) profit margin, yes, but also from the IWANNARITEGAMESSOIHERDINEDACSDEGREEEEE idiots.
18:12:28 <GregorR> I would say 50% of the first-year CS students are the latter. And 0% of that 50% continue to another year.
18:14:30 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:25:34 <bsmntbom1dood> it seems like the undergrad CS curriculum at all universities sucks
18:50:50 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:09:16 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
19:13:24 -!- Tritonio has joined.
19:17:11 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:35:08 -!- Arrogant has joined.
19:43:29 -!- Tritonio has quit ("Bye...").
19:46:57 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
20:05:36 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
20:08:12 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
20:09:02 <oklokok> uh, i love the people who act all programming king in the first demos of a course, right up until i get on the blackboard :D
20:09:17 <oklokok> guys who've made a game or two in VB and the likes :P
20:10:02 <oklokok> i guess i shouldn't brag about that, but owning noobs is just so much fun
20:26:33 -!- oklokok has changed nick to oklopol.
20:27:16 <oerjan> _please_ don't start to resemble immibis, ok?
20:27:46 <oklopol> i like immibis, he's got a nice animal charm
20:27:57 <oklopol> you know, he just seems to be more alive than most ppl
20:29:40 <oklopol> i'll try to be formal from now on
20:29:53 <oklopol> eh.. formal? you know that non immibis thing
20:30:07 <oerjan> someone who chastises his alter ego for spamming, and then continues to do it himself...
20:30:28 <oerjan> ok, i'll just have to remember we are mad here.
20:33:30 <oklopol> i feel naughty for being the same color and length as GregorR
20:33:32 <Sgeo> MAD! MAD> I SAY!
20:34:24 <oklopol> you'd think that'd be the easier of the two to get :P
20:35:06 <oerjan> i was all wondering, how did you get to compare heights?
20:35:23 <oerjan> i remember the conversation from the logs or something
20:35:35 <oklopol> nice, someone besides me reads the logs :)
20:35:38 <oerjan> i don't have colored nicks though
20:36:24 <oerjan> except when someone mentions mine
20:36:42 <oklopol> well yeah, but that usually comes automatically with every client
20:37:55 <oerjan> indeed, although i _did_ download a color scheme
20:38:23 <oerjan> since i cannot stand dark backgrounds
20:38:47 <oklopol> can't stand dark backrounds :O
20:38:55 <oklopol> you'd hate using my computer :)
20:40:33 <oerjan> actually i think the default which i changed was something that left the background as is, but selected the other colors on the assumption it was dark...
20:41:18 <oerjan> certain things got a bit hard to see :/
20:41:33 <oklopol> i have white on grey now, though i prefer white on black
20:47:43 <oklopol> had to make sure you weren't correcting me :P
20:47:54 <oklopol> "white on black" <<< i could've easily failed this
20:48:51 <oerjan> well, let's not look at things as black or white
20:49:20 <oerjan> green on orange is much better
20:53:51 -!- Arrogant has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
21:08:02 -!- ihope_ has joined.
21:08:14 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to ihope.
21:10:01 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
21:24:53 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
21:45:20 -!- rutlov has joined.
21:55:20 -!- rutlov has left (?).
22:09:43 -!- bsmntbom1dood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
23:21:33 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:28:08 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
23:44:57 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:45:04 -!- CakeProphet_ has joined.
00:03:46 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+").
00:15:32 -!- CakeProphet__ has joined.
00:17:44 -!- CakeProphet__ has quit (Client Quit).
00:17:59 -!- CakeProphet__ has joined.
00:18:40 -!- CakeProphet__ has changed nick to CakeProphet.
00:32:52 -!- CakeProphet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
01:05:02 <pikhq> I fully intend, next year, to laugh at the undergrad CS students who don't know shit about coding.
01:05:13 <pikhq> Moreover, I plan to do it in Brainfuck.
01:07:09 <pikhq> Perhaps assisted with my friendly compiler. :)
01:09:53 -!- Sgeo has joined.
01:24:55 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
01:25:17 -!- CakeProphet__ has joined.
01:25:19 -!- CakeProphet__ has changed nick to CakeProphet.
01:41:33 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
01:46:36 <lament> pikhq: it's impolite to laugh at people just because they don't know something they're not even supposed to know.
01:47:27 <pikhq> lament: I refuse to be polite, then.
01:48:04 <lament> ok, i'll laugh at you because you don't know Russian, then.
01:48:16 <lament> really, how can anybody be that stupid? :)
01:48:56 <pikhq> It'd only be silly if I went in as a Russian major.
01:49:04 <pikhq> And then claimed to be a god at Russian.
01:49:18 <pikhq> (like the people I intend to laugh at claim to be a god at coding)
01:49:33 <lament> the CS program assumes no knowledge of programming
01:50:04 <pikhq> And I assume that the mathematics program assumes no knowledge of math?
01:50:04 <lament> much unlike the math program
01:51:02 <pikhq> Inevitably, the ones who will stick around in such a program *already know a bit about programming*.
01:51:08 <lament> pikhq: that's not true.
01:51:26 <lament> lots of people learn programming while in the CS program.
01:52:36 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: be aware of the fact that virtually all introductory (read: required) CS courses specify a language for the completion of all assignments.
01:53:03 <bsmntbombdood> in a math program, you're expected to know the language of math, ie algebra
01:53:06 <lament> pikhq: in my university, there was an exam you could take to skip the first few courses.
01:53:18 <lament> bsmntbombdood: ...why?
01:53:30 <lament> pikhq: so people who already knew programming could take the exam, and others would take those courses.
01:53:33 <pikhq> Particularly when it is plausible for someone to know programming by age 8. . .
01:53:45 <RodgerTheGreat> if you get into an AI course or something and still want to use PEBBLE, be my guest. However, CS 1001 or whatever-the-hell-it's-called introductory programming is going to use either C++ or Java, period.
01:54:01 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: C++ at the college I want to go to.
01:54:06 <pikhq> Fortuitously, I *know* C++.
01:54:21 <pikhq> And I'd love to do one assignment in PEBBLE, for no good reason. :p
01:54:31 <lament> bsmntbombdood: note that the analogy is doubly broken because the CS program *also* expects you to know math, just like the math program.
01:54:47 <lament> bsmntbombdood: in fact, both programs expect you to know what you're taught in HS.
01:54:56 <ihope> Not that I know when I learned Pascal. That was a while ago.
01:55:01 <lament> bsmntbombdood: which involves a lot of math and no (mandatory) CS.
01:55:10 <RodgerTheGreat> bsmntbombdood: 1) try being a fucking grader, 2) those intro courses are *largely* about teaching sane coding style, formatting and commenting practice
01:55:12 <bsmntbombdood> lament: if you can't learn anything on your own, you're stupid
01:55:32 <lament> bsmntbombdood: there's a difference between "can" and "should"
01:55:34 <pikhq> Imagine you going in as an English major, and enter not knowing English. . .
01:55:57 <lament> pikhq: with languages *other* than English, that's exactly how it works.
01:56:06 <lament> You could enter not knowing any Spanish, and then become a Spanish major.
01:56:14 <pikhq> lament: I assume this is a school somewhere where English is spoken natively.
01:56:20 <RodgerTheGreat> bsmntbombdood: why is it valuable to have CS majors without practical coding experience? Theory is far less useful if nobody knows how to apply it in a useful fashion.
01:57:04 <lament> anyway, faculties can't assume that you know anything beyond high school stuff. Otherwise, nobody would go to said faculties.
01:57:26 <pikhq> lament: Programming courses for a computer science program should honestly be considered remedial courses. . .
01:57:28 <lament> so all faculties assume english, and all faculties assume math, and none of them assume programming.
01:57:41 <ihope> The subject "English" is a horrible spectrum ranging from literature to spelling.
01:57:51 <lament> pikhq: sure, just like basic spanish courses are "remedial" for a spanish major
01:57:57 <ihope> The two are pretty much unrelated.
01:57:58 <pikhq> And try to get high schools to actually match that.
01:58:28 <pikhq> ihope: For a degree in English, literature is usually what is being referred to. ;)
01:58:30 <lament> pikhq: well, *given* the high schools, universities are pretty much doing the best they can.
01:59:20 <pikhq> Given the high schools, I'm surprised people can even wipe their ass after graduating from high school.
01:59:46 <ihope> Is that supposed to be taught in schools at all?
01:59:47 <RodgerTheGreat> there are a depressing number of people who choose a college major without doing anything in advance of showing up for the first class to prepare themselves
02:00:13 <RodgerTheGreat> ihope: I dunno, I think they teach it in some of the elementary school special ed classes
02:02:25 <RodgerTheGreat> if parents are incapable of teaching their children to dress themselves, eat, and defecate properly, I don't think they deserve the title "parent"
02:02:29 <lament> so yeah, to summarize, the math program assumes as much math knowledge as the CS program assumes CS knowledge -- everything you learned in high school.
02:02:58 <lament> You'd think the people going to math are pretty smart. Yet the program doesn't even assume they know calculus. Because not everybody learns calculus in high schools.
02:03:25 <RodgerTheGreat> which says more about high-schools than universities, really
02:03:34 <lament> bsmntbombdood: you don't quite understand.
02:03:45 -!- gurami has joined.
02:03:50 <lament> bsmntbombdood: there's this thing called *the real world*, which is where both universities and high schools have to operate.
02:03:52 <RodgerTheGreat> but you need to remember- there are two reasons you go to college: to learn, or to prove what you know
02:04:21 <lament> bsmntbombdood: In this "real world", the universities can't do anything about the high schools and have to do their best given the situation.
02:04:23 <RodgerTheGreat> In my case, some of both. In some cases, more of the former
02:04:34 <lament> bsmntbombdood: which is what they do.
02:05:07 <lament> You can't raise the bar above HS requirements because then almost nobody would attend.
02:05:20 <bsmntbombdood> universities are for the advancement of academia, not for making money
02:05:47 <lament> in this case, universities are for teaching, and teaching is what they do.
02:05:55 <pikhq> The high schools need to be revamped signifigantly. .
02:05:56 <bsmntbombdood> forcing people to know stuff they didn't get taught in high school would keep the idiots out
02:06:19 <ihope> Universities aren't out to make money?
02:06:21 <lament> bsmntbombdood: so where should they learn this stuff? By themselves?
02:06:35 <lament> bsmntbombdood: so, if you can learn it all by yourself
02:06:39 <lament> why go to university at all?
02:06:45 <pikhq> ihope: In *name*, they're largely public institutions.
02:07:07 <RodgerTheGreat> there's a fine balance to strike between punishing people for being lazy cockoffs in high-school and unfairly hurting the people that honestly did try yet went to crappy schools
02:08:23 <lament> bsmntbombdood: that's not the stated goal of universities (in the context of getting an undergrad degree). Perhaps a society like MENSA would serve you better.
02:09:15 <RodgerTheGreat> lament: wait... were you serious about the mensa thing?
02:10:28 <ihope> Hmm, Mensa. I think my mom says it's mostly about "Look at me, I'm smart enough to be in Mensa!"
02:10:32 <pikhq> MENSA is remarkable, in that it seems to be more a society of people smart enough to join, but not smart enough to willingly *not* join.
02:10:45 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: he wants to interact with smart people, no?
02:11:39 <RodgerTheGreat> well, he said smart people, but smart people isn't necessarily the same thing as pretentious assholes with high-IQs that are willing to pay membership dues to say so.
02:12:13 <lament> well, that's his problem :)
02:12:51 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Like I said: smart enough to join, not smart enough to *not* join. ;)
02:13:01 <RodgerTheGreat> in all honesty, I think quite a few of us here could get into MENSA if we wanted and yet... none of us are currently... how unusual...
02:13:26 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: yeah, I was just making the point in a different way
02:13:36 <pikhq> "Here's an IQ test I took. . . 8 years ago." ;)
02:13:48 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: 1 in 50 makes it in, iirc.
02:13:56 <gurami> Tell me how to make a really great cappuccino please?
02:14:08 <lament> gurami: the key ingredient is great espresso
02:14:15 <pikhq> Assuming an IQ test with some other standard deviation, it is officially 2 standard deriviations.
02:14:17 <RodgerTheGreat> lament: ah... dude, that would mean mensa "geniuses" are within one standard deviantion. WTF?
02:14:19 <lament> gurami: do you have a big, expensive espresso machine?
02:14:27 <bsmntbombdood> gurami: 1 part really great esspresso, 1 part milk, 1 part microfoam?
02:14:52 <lament> gurami: the other key thing is knowing how to foam milk
02:15:09 <gurami> That is difficult - I always end up with too little foam
02:15:21 <lament> gurami: http://www.coffeegeek.com/guides/frothingguide
02:15:39 <gurami> reading something called the frothingguide will make this day complete
02:15:47 <lament> and in general, look at http://www.coffeegeek.com/guides
02:16:01 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Presumably because 2 SDs is 0.5% of the population?
02:16:56 <pikhq> Still not all *that* impressive.
02:17:25 <RodgerTheGreat> nothing against you, gurami, but is there any particular reason you decided this would be a good channel to ask about cappuccino?
02:17:41 <ihope> Is nobody here capable of spelling "deviation"? :-P
02:17:44 * pikhq is at about the point where IQ tests are incapable of accurately discerning meaningful values.
02:18:09 <gurami> Meh, I figure a room full of esoteric programmers would be pretty knowledgeable about caffeine delivery methods :)
02:18:11 <pikhq> ihope: How the hell did I enter an "r" in my second usage of "deviation"?
02:18:27 <pikhq> gurami: Coffee, and lots of it. ;p
02:18:37 <pikhq> Mountain Dew is also damned good.
02:18:42 -!- ihope_ has joined.
02:20:13 <ihope_> "Your IQ is at least this high", they said...
02:20:17 <gurami> :) I mean, i can understand an addiction to mountain dew. i just cant sympathize
02:21:11 <pikhq> Sometimes, I need something sugary.
02:21:32 <gurami> I totally call all cola "Coke". Pop must be preceded by Snap and Crackle.
02:21:51 <pikhq> I call all operating systems "Windows". :p
02:23:07 <gurami> Ok i call all soft drinks coke.
02:23:12 <gurami> i think its a southern thing.
02:23:53 <gurami> [http://popvssoda.com]
02:24:31 <ihope_> Except when I think the word "pop" sound silly, in which case... um...
02:24:53 <ihope_> (I seem to be becoming increasingly unable to put the "s" on the end of stuff.)
02:25:07 <pikhq> I do both "soda" and "pop". . .
02:25:43 <ihope_> (Why the singular/plural distinction, anyway? I don't like it.)
02:25:57 <ihope_> (Person can understand thing just fine without it, can't it?)
02:26:29 <ihope_> I generally use "soda" only for "fruit"-flavored drinks.
02:26:43 <gurami> here's a question, is someone who believes in the Pope's mission a "Popist"?
02:27:16 <ihope_> Maybe I believe in both Pope and pop.
02:28:24 <gurami> sorry i took the level of this conversation down a bunch
02:28:33 <gurami> im kinda bored and delirious
02:28:41 <RodgerTheGreat> pope pop! the new flavor sensation sweeping vatican city! "Holy christ on a stick it's good", says an anonymous dude.
02:29:49 <gurami> The new brown pope pop: Poopy Pope Pop!
02:32:19 -!- gurami has left (?).
02:32:31 <pikhq> Easter-Flavored Pope Pop!
02:32:58 <pikhq> "Where is it? It can't have left the grave!"
02:33:16 <RodgerTheGreat> "It makes you feel like crawling out of hell and doing something with palm fronds!"
02:34:33 <pikhq> That'd be Good Friday Pope Pop, and that has cyanide. :p
02:38:17 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out).
02:43:40 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
03:31:40 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
04:00:33 -!- Herr_Rob has joined.
04:01:11 -!- Robdgreat has quit (Nick collision from services.).
04:01:15 -!- Herr_Rob has changed nick to Robdgreat.
04:22:49 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
04:28:18 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
05:10:02 <Sgeo> RodgerTheGreat, lies!
05:10:57 <RodgerTheGreat> sometimes I wish we were a bit more like #Esoteric in the sense that we didn't have a big centralized set of servers providing all our stuff- #Esoteric's resources are distributed around to different people
05:11:15 <RodgerTheGreat> we have a lot of friction going on because we have a community half and a company half.
05:11:22 <Sgeo> RodgerTheGreat, where ios this?
05:13:05 <RodgerTheGreat> a little pearl of wisdom here: shit gets complicated when you let it.
05:35:38 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined.
05:43:50 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Nick collision from services.).
05:43:55 -!- bsmntbom1dood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
05:52:19 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat").
06:50:52 -!- jix has joined.
07:32:55 -!- immibis has joined.
07:42:54 <immibis> !glass {M[mc<25>=(_a)A!(_o)O!/(c)c1(_a)s.?"12345 "(_o)o.?\]}
07:43:08 <immibis> !glass {M[mc<25>=(_a)A!(_o)O!/(c)c<1>(_a)s.?"12345 "(_o)o.?\]}
07:43:26 <EgoBot> 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 123
07:43:28 <EgoBot> 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 123
07:45:31 <immibis> !glass {M[mc<25>=(_a)A!(_o)O!/(c)cc*<1>(_a)s.?="12345 "(_o)o.?\]}
07:45:34 <EgoBot> 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345 12345
07:46:57 <immibis> !glass {M[mx<1>=(_o)O!(_i)I!/(x)(_i)l.?(_o)o.?\]}
07:47:13 <immibis> !daemon glasscat glass {M[mx<1>=(_o)O!(_i)I!/(x)(_i)l.?(_o)o.?\]}
07:49:59 -!- EgoBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:07:20 -!- toBogE has joined.
08:07:23 -!- toBogE has changed nick to egobot.
08:07:27 -!- egobot has changed nick to EgoBot.
08:07:53 -!- EgoBot has changed nick to EgoBotsClone.
08:17:37 -!- EgoBotsClone has quit (Excess Flood).
08:22:56 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
08:30:02 -!- EgoBotsClone has joined.
08:43:51 -!- sekhmet has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
08:43:51 -!- zuzu_ has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
08:46:08 -!- zuzu_ has joined.
08:46:08 -!- sekhmet has joined.
08:48:20 <EgoBotsClone> Finished channel list, receiving user list for each channel
09:26:47 -!- EgoBotsClone has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
09:27:31 -!- EgoBotsClone has joined.
09:28:38 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o).?]}
09:28:38 <EgoBotsClone> java.io.IOException: CreateProcess: "runglass "{M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o).?]}"" error=2
09:30:02 <immibis> the system cannot find the file specified.......
09:33:30 -!- EgoBotsClone has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
09:33:56 -!- EgoBotsClone has joined.
09:34:18 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o).?]}
09:34:19 <EgoBotsClone> java.io.IOException: CreateProcess: "pause > NUL" "C:\djgpp\glass-0.7\glass "{M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o).?]}"" error=2
09:34:39 -!- EgoBotsClone has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
09:34:58 -!- EgoBotsClone has joined.
09:35:12 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o).?]}
09:35:31 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o).?]}
09:35:31 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o).?]}
09:35:58 <immibis> what does "ntvdm.exe: error setting up the environment for the new application" mean exactly?
09:39:25 -!- Guilt has joined.
09:40:05 <oklopol> "(RodgerTheGreat) in all honesty, I think quite a few of us here could get into MENSA if we wanted and yet... none of us are currently... how unusual..." how do you know? i almost went to the tests :P
09:46:07 <oklopol> i can't stand IQ tests, it's just about fast pattern matching
09:46:25 <oklopol> well, actually i can't stand them because of that for the simple reason that's what i'm particularly bad at ;)
09:51:06 -!- EgoBotsClone has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
09:51:21 -!- EgoBotsClone has joined.
09:51:43 <immibis> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o).?]}
09:52:19 <immibis> what? error while setting up environment for the application!!!
10:04:18 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection).
10:11:40 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC. Friends hel).
10:12:02 -!- EgoBotsClone has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
10:15:27 -!- Guilt has quit ("CGI:IRC at http://freenode.bafsoft.ath.cx:14464/ (EOF)").
10:26:19 -!- Guilt has joined.
11:28:25 -!- Tritonio has joined.
13:15:28 -!- jix has joined.
13:30:50 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
14:10:17 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
14:20:57 <RodgerTheGreat> oklopol: well, I'm kinda on the other end of the spectrum there
14:22:08 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm really, really good at the types of things on IQ tests (spatial thinking, pattern recognition, etc), and standardized tests in general, to the point that I have difficulty believing my results are anything but statistical anomalies
14:26:25 <RodgerTheGreat> the main problem is that IQ tests tend to place a tremendous amount of weight on some fairly specialized types of skills
14:27:29 <oklopol> i guess i get good scores too, but i feel stupid doing them, since i just get the trivial ones in the short time you have...
14:28:03 <oklopol> i guess everyone just gets the trivial stuff....
14:28:53 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I'm familiar with testing and scoring procedure (another reason my scores should be taken with a grain of salt) and most modern tests weight the question
14:30:27 -!- Guilt has quit ("CGI:IRC at http://freenode.bafsoft.ath.cx:14464/ (EOF)").
14:55:12 -!- jix has joined.
15:05:14 <bsmntbombdood> output brainfuck that, when executed, outputs the input?
16:17:10 -!- sebbu has joined.
16:22:01 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined.
16:33:19 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:04:39 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:52:09 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
17:53:06 -!- jix has joined.
18:11:49 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:15:56 -!- Guilt has joined.
18:19:03 -!- ehird` has joined.
18:29:50 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:39:03 <oerjan> hat+goggles? bsmntbom1dood is designing mad scientist wear?
18:39:14 -!- bsmntbom1dood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
18:39:34 <oklopol> hmm, bf_txtgen may need some optimizing to actually compress...
18:40:55 <bsmntbombdood> the hat is a tetrahedron made out of duck tape and cardboard
18:41:00 <oerjan> given that each character in a brainfuck program takes only 8 possible values, some sequences of which are redundant or impossible...
18:41:15 <oerjan> tetrahedron sounds pretty mad to me :D
18:42:05 <oerjan> but proper madness of course requires something better than cardboard. tinfoil perhaps?
18:42:07 <bsmntbombdood> the goggles are sort of square-piramids with the tips and bases cut off
18:42:35 <oklopol> oerjan: true, i'm not saying it doesn't compress anything
18:43:30 <oerjan> oklopol: basically you are immediately at at least a 3/8 handicap
18:44:00 <oerjan> however given that i've heard english text only has 1 bit per character information, there is still some wiggling room
18:44:08 <bsmntbombdood> well, you would only use 3 bits/instruction of course
18:45:32 <oklopol> 1 bit per character? darn, my conciseness-based conlang only does 75% compression compared to english :|
18:45:57 <oerjan> that figure may have been anecdotal though
18:46:16 <oklopol> indeed, sounds a bit of a coinsidence
18:46:52 <RodgerTheGreat> oklopol: In my crypto classes, I heard figures of at least 1.6
18:48:20 <oklopol> eh... that was kinda obvious, sorry :D
18:48:27 <RodgerTheGreat> have a look at the middle image here- http://folklore.org/projects/Macintosh/images/polaroids/polaroids.2.jpg
18:49:08 <RodgerTheGreat> what you see there is the original prototype interface for the Apple Lisa, the final version of which became the macintosh GUI.
18:50:44 <RodgerTheGreat> imagine what computers would be like today if softkey-driven keyboard based UIs had become dominant back in the day.
18:53:42 <RodgerTheGreat> that's not really the same thing, unless your "window manager" is mc
18:56:11 <Sgeo> Linux Mint 3.1 is out!
18:59:40 <oklopol> in case anyone happens to know how to get my own ip on ubuntu in python, i'd appreciate it
18:59:56 <oklopol> google only gives me getaddrinfo crap that only works on win
19:00:12 <Sgeo> Ask in #python ?
19:20:27 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:34:56 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
19:43:20 <bsmntbombdood> http://abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmntbombdood/hat_goggles.jpg
19:44:32 <oklopol> i gotta get me one of those
19:46:07 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:47:13 * Sgeo can't wait to play with the new version of LM
19:47:36 * Sgeo is downloading it now
19:47:39 <oerjan> wait a minute, an actual, clear, part-of-face showing picture of bsmntbombdood? impossible :D
19:49:27 <SimonRC> have you seen the latest, greatest conspiracy theory?
19:49:57 <SimonRC> http://digg.com/videos/music/How_our_financial_system_really_works
19:50:47 <SimonRC> alas, the only way yet found to get a load of monkies to work hard is debt like that.
19:51:55 * SimonRC presses the ENHANCE button
19:54:10 <ehird`> that's against the laws of nature
19:54:14 <ehird`> call the nature police
19:56:21 * Sgeo keeps downloading LM
20:00:16 * oklopol is dissappointed no one misinterpreted him to refer to bsmntbombdood with his remark
20:00:57 <oklopol> "(oklopol) i gotta get me one of those"
20:04:38 <oklopol> really wore that to school?
20:05:00 <oklopol> i used to be a cook too... nowadays i don't bother going to school anymore :<
20:05:20 * oerjan thinks the top of bsmntbombdood's head must be _really_ ugly.
20:05:37 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
20:06:16 * SimonRC points out a picture he drew (explanation to follow at some point in the future): http://users.durge.org/~sc/Kigdatsi/pics/Kig_20070922.png
20:06:17 <bsmntbombdood> yeah http://abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmntbombdood/pic_3.jpg
20:06:20 <oerjan> or maybe it's just that americans have really weird fashion sense
20:07:20 <oerjan> aha, i didn't know you were in the picture
20:08:07 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:08:20 <oerjan> hm, maybe it's that "666" on his forehead he doesn't want to show, it's covered in both...
20:09:27 <bsmntbombdood> i don't think we've ever seen pics of you oerjan ...
20:12:20 <oerjan> i used to have a pass photo on my homepage but a friend said i looked like a Hitlerjugend so i took it away... i don't actually have any kind of digital camera
20:14:07 <oerjan> still in the directory though - http://oerjan.nvg.org/face.gif~ but it's at least 10 years old
20:14:58 <ehird`> i can see the resemblence! .. no i can't
20:15:10 <oklopol> oerjan: that can't be you!
20:15:19 <ehird`> also, oerjan, i'm going to ignore that photo because my mental-image-o-tron does not percieve you as looking like that
20:15:24 <oerjan> it was a friend with a weird sense of humor :)
20:15:45 <oklopol> because of the reason ehird` said
20:15:51 <Sgeo> oerjan of FRC!
20:16:14 <oklopol> norwegians never pose for a pic without a massive cod in their hand!
20:16:19 <oerjan> Sgeo: what, you recognize the picture? O_O
20:16:38 <Sgeo> No, it's just that you are of the Fantasy Rules Comittee
20:17:34 * Sgeo used to love reading the archives
20:17:50 * Sgeo still does actually
20:18:02 <oerjan> i just thought if you were on FRC, you might actually have seen that picture when it was on my homepage :D
20:19:00 <oerjan> oklopol: i _hate_ fishing despite that both my grandfathers were fishermen and my father loves it
20:19:07 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: you can't do shit in germany because of the whole nazi thing
20:19:24 <oerjan> more or less the same with skis, btw
20:19:49 <ehird`> oppression i think you mean
20:20:56 <oklopol> oerjan: i'll just ignore that and continue to think of you as a long-haired fishing-loving satan-worshipper!
20:21:36 * oklopol listens to a lot of death metal
20:21:59 <oklopol> i'm very bad with genres :)
20:22:08 <oerjan> just to completely ruin everything, i must mention that i love ABBA :D
20:22:45 <oklopol> i'm not sure what death metal is.
20:24:55 <oklopol> no one takes the lyrics seriously :P
20:25:32 <bsmntbombdood> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dc/Gorgorothvid.jpg
20:26:32 <ehird`> Haikus are fun/but this is not/a haiku
20:29:36 <oklopol> i agree that is one ridiculous outfit, but i don't understand people who wear anything but black t-shirts anyway
20:29:45 <ehird`> Haikus are fun/but this is not/a haiku/haikus have no more than 3 lines
20:31:12 <oklopol> gorgasm is one of my favorite
20:31:33 <oklopol> cannibal corpse is a classic of course, but that's usually pretty dull melodically
20:37:26 <oklopol> was your reason for death metal sucking the fact the people who make it are idiots? :P
20:37:39 <oklopol> or do you have something against the actual music?
20:38:17 <oklopol> you must not have heard gorgasm, it's absolute beauty
20:38:38 <oklopol> hmm... can you give me an example band :P
20:38:44 <oklopol> i have no idea what that is
20:41:15 <oklopol> i haven't heard much black sabbath
20:44:15 <oklopol> hehe, this is some groovy rock 'n' roll ;)
20:45:19 <oklopol> do not turn my sarcasm around!
20:46:36 <oklopol> i didn't think anyone would
20:47:46 * oerjan beats oklopol with a stick
20:49:00 <oklopol> abba is better than sabbath
20:49:10 <oklopol> well, according to this one random song i heard.
20:49:38 * Sgeo wants to play some Fantasy Chess
20:50:50 <oklopol> abba, like most pop, occasionally has nice melodies, but uses too little of them per song
20:55:26 <oklopol> i may have, these ancient bands i've doomed to be bad for no apparent reason sometimes turn out to be pretty decent.
20:58:22 <oerjan> everything went downhill after Akhenaton's Sun Hymn, really
20:59:20 <oklopol> music gets better all the time
21:00:21 <oklopol> even pop nowadays sometimes sounds like music from time to time
21:06:38 <oerjan> it's probably just a side effect of having a tetrahedron on your head. watch out for weird time distortions.
21:16:49 <oklopol> when i woke up 3 hours ago, i actually felt like i could do something for a change
21:18:48 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:33:49 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
22:09:06 -!- cherez has joined.
22:09:24 -!- cherez has left (?).
22:28:20 <lament> taste in music is subjective, surprise!
22:37:03 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
22:39:39 -!- Sgeo has joined.
01:04:02 -!- clog has joined.
01:04:02 -!- clog has joined.
02:14:04 -!- immibis has joined.
02:14:52 -!- EgoBotsClone has joined.
02:15:10 -!- EgoBotsClone has changed nick to toBogE.
02:18:55 -!- ihope__ has joined.
02:19:14 -!- ihope__ has changed nick to ihope.
02:24:46 <ihope> Taking a nap, I guess.
02:25:12 <ihope> GregorR, if EgoBot isn't being serviced, I hereby do nothing to you.
02:26:12 <immibis> it crashed last night when i tried to run a glass daemon
02:27:10 <ihope> So it must be receiving medical attention.
02:27:40 <immibis> the command was !daemon glasscat glass {M[mx<1>=(_o)O!(_i)I!/(x)(_i)l.?(_o)o.?\]}
02:31:42 <immibis> bots don't take naps or require medical attention.
02:32:53 <toBogE> I am taking a nap now.
02:32:59 -!- toBogE has changed nick to toBogE_away.
02:34:10 -!- toBogE_away has changed nick to toBogE_hospital.
02:34:14 <ihope> Bots can take naps just fine.
02:34:55 -!- toBogE_hospital has changed nick to toBogE.
02:34:57 * ihope puts lots of bandages on toBogE_hospital
02:35:16 <ihope> Have you ever taken a bot offline to allow it to think for a while?
02:35:22 <immibis> why did i forget to do that in #toboge
02:35:27 <ihope> Is that its password? :-P
02:35:28 <immibis> when its offline its not running
02:35:34 <immibis> its nickserv password, yes
02:35:40 <ihope> Well, if you were to do that, it'd be thinking during that time.
02:35:53 * immibis changes toboge's nickserv password
02:36:05 <immibis> !raw privmsg nickserv :set password IAmToboge
02:36:24 -!- ihope_ has quit (Connection timed out).
02:36:34 -!- toBogE has quit (Nick collision from services.).
02:36:46 -!- EgoBotsClone has joined.
02:36:58 <pikhq> Are you surprised?
02:37:09 <immibis> thank you auto-reconnect though
02:37:15 <ihope> pikhq: did you do something semievil?
02:37:23 <pikhq> ihope: Just a ghost.
02:37:31 <immibis> yes, he /ns ghost toboge IAmToboge
02:37:50 -!- EgoBotsClone has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
02:37:56 -!- immibis has changed nick to toBogE.
02:38:03 <ihope> pikhq: that was pretty talented of you. :-P
02:38:39 <pikhq> Takes a lot of skill. :p
02:39:06 <toBogE> i just made it something that even i'm not likely to remember...
02:39:11 -!- toBogE has changed nick to EgoBotsClone.
02:39:30 -!- EgoBotsClone has changed nick to immibis.
02:39:36 <immibis> and egobotsclone is now linked to toboge
02:39:56 * immibis starts netbeans to change toboge's password
02:40:21 <immibis> so it won't need to re-identify when it logs in as egobotsclone
02:43:46 <immibis> pikhq, what is your password?
02:44:25 <pikhq> char pikhq.password = {};
02:44:35 <pikhq> char pikhq.password[10] = {};
02:45:17 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sqeo.
02:45:30 <pikhq> Perfectly valid psuedoC.
02:46:47 <immibis> and what are the contents of the array?
02:47:06 <Sqeo> immibis, none now apparently
02:47:34 <pikhq> The unspecified values in a static initialiser for an array or struct are 0.
02:47:38 <immibis> [13:46] --NickServ-- Password Incorrect
02:47:52 <Sqeo> oO You have NULs in your password?
02:47:54 <pikhq> No, it's an array of length 10. 10 0s.
02:47:55 <immibis> it's not 0000000000 either
02:48:08 <pikhq> Sqeo: As far as he knows.
02:48:19 <immibis> it's not %00%00%00%00%00 either
02:48:32 <Sqeo> LOL not what i meant
02:48:49 <pikhq> immibis: You're entering it wrong, anyways.
02:48:49 <Sqeo> How does one type in a NUL?
02:49:51 <immibis> hold alt and type 0000 on the numeric keypad then release alt
02:50:08 <immibis> of course, you can't display it or send it to irc...
02:50:21 <immibis> and i don't think your os will let you type it probably.
02:51:26 <pikhq> It would if it conformed to the GNU coding standards.
02:51:31 <Sqeo> Testtestyresttttesttestingyay!moretest!test
02:52:48 <Sqeo> How does everyone see that?
02:52:52 -!- EgoBotsClone has joined.
02:52:57 <Sqeo> I see 0126789543
02:53:00 <Sqeo> Everyone else?
02:53:53 <Sqeo> It has a bunch of right-to-left and left-to-right embedded in it
02:55:52 <immibis> i see 012<a with hat><euro sign><R in a circle>345<a with a hat><euro sign>-6789
02:57:08 * Sqeo sees it as 0126789543
03:00:33 * immibis sees 012<a with hat><euro sign><R in a circle>345<a with a hat><euro sign>-6789
03:01:02 <immibis> are those two the same or different?
03:03:50 <immibis> who sees them as the same?
03:04:29 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out).
03:09:56 -!- Sqeo has changed nick to Sgeo.
03:10:53 -!- EgoBotsClone has quit (Nick collision from services.).
03:11:00 -!- EgoBotsClone has joined.
03:12:27 <immibis> !binascii 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
03:13:30 <immibis> !binascii 00110000 00110001 00110011 00110100 00110101 00110110 00110111 00111000 00111001 00111010 00111011 00111100 00111101 00111110 00111111
03:14:47 * Sgeo sees the first as 012678943'
03:14:58 <Sgeo> the second as 0126789543
03:15:13 <Sgeo> wrt the "are those two the same or different?"
03:15:40 <immibis> who sees 0126789543 as different from 0123456789
03:16:04 * Sgeo sees them the same
03:16:26 <Sgeo> But they behave differently in the chatbox
03:16:31 <Sgeo> Try moving the cursor around
03:16:43 <Sgeo> Or going to the beginning and deleting
03:17:01 <immibis> no, i see it as normal characters
03:22:15 <immibis> does anyone have a glass interpreter in brainfuck?
03:23:13 <immibis> !echo My Glass interpreter is faulty.
03:23:28 <immibis> !raw privmsg #esoteric :TEST
03:23:45 <immibis> !cat My Glass interpreter is faulty
03:26:22 <immibis> the esolangs wiki homepage is out of date
03:26:31 <immibis> "Waiting for the results of the *2006* esolang contest"
03:32:58 <pikhq> No, that's sadly quite valid.
03:33:10 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Sukoshi: Hurry up. You've had over a year.
03:33:13 <immibis> you haven't got the results?
03:34:40 <immibis> does anyone know if there is a glass interpreter in brainfuck?
03:35:19 -!- EgoBotsClone has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
03:41:51 <pikhq> Although you may feel free to port a C++ program to Brainfuck. ;)
03:45:28 <pikhq> 'This, IIRC, is a Glass comment.'
03:45:58 <immibis> or of course "So is this, well sort of",
03:46:04 <immibis> which pushes a string and pops it.
03:46:22 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to CaptainObvious.
03:46:28 -!- CaptainObvious has changed nick to Sgeo.
03:47:15 <immibis> sgeo: you know nick changes apply to all channels you're on?
03:47:34 <Sgeo> But I only care about one chan at a time
04:03:58 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
04:06:45 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to DesuDesu.
04:06:55 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: with the power vested in me by the committe, I award you this trophy engraved with the words "impatient douchebag". Congratulations, man.
04:07:31 -!- DesuDesu has changed nick to Sgeo.
04:09:30 -!- immibis has changed nick to immibis_.
04:09:30 <pikhq> Sgeo: Needs more です.
04:09:50 * Sgeo was changing his name to that because I thought it was blocked in some other channel
04:11:08 -!- immibis_ has left (?).
04:11:14 -!- immybo has joined.
04:11:53 <RodgerTheGreat> immybo: yeah, our committing skills are pretty much unparalleled.
04:12:43 -!- immybo has changed nick to immibis.
04:13:44 -!- immibis has changed nick to a_ninja.
04:13:53 -!- a_ninja has changed nick to immibis.
04:14:46 <immibis> ばかなにんじゃになりたい人。…… yourself.
04:16:03 <RodgerTheGreat> .... I dunno, I had a cool followup to that, but it kinda left.
04:16:32 -!- ehird` has joined.
04:17:37 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Hahah.
04:17:48 <pikhq> immibis: Just saying "stupid ninja wannabe". . .
04:18:01 <immibis> how do you keep an idiot in suspense?
04:19:13 <RodgerTheGreat> I have developed a "magic trick" which is, all things considered, pretty unreal
04:19:29 <immibis> do you want to know how to keep an idiot in suspense?
04:19:47 <RodgerTheGreat> immibis: I refuse to answer purely hypothetical questions
04:20:00 <immibis> do you want to know how to keep an idiot in suspense?
04:20:05 <immibis> hang him from the ceiling.
04:20:41 <RodgerTheGreat> honestly, I thought you were just going to leave that question hanging, not unlike "to amuse an idiot, flip this over"
04:21:43 <RodgerTheGreat> I kinda missed an important part of preparation here, because we want a piece of paper in our pocket upon which is written what the person will say next
04:22:22 <RodgerTheGreat> when the other person is holding the apple, ask them "when you're holding that apple, what do you feel like doing?"
04:22:23 -!- cmeme has quit (Excess Flood).
04:23:06 <RodgerTheGreat> they will answer, based on a survey of over 40 people, "I want to throw it" or a variation thereof. You then produce the piece of paper and impress them with your mindreading skills.
04:23:25 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
04:23:34 <RodgerTheGreat> it sounds stupid, but my experimental results with this have been absolutely amazing
04:23:57 -!- cmeme has joined.
04:29:57 * pikhq happily listens to some They Might be Giants
04:30:13 <RodgerTheGreat> if you ask the question when they have it settled into their palm, they seem to leap more immediately to "throw"
04:31:35 <RodgerTheGreat> in order to isolate any other variables, my tests have been conducted with a granny smith and some kind of dark red apple, both at room temperature
04:31:58 <RodgerTheGreat> some people have suggested that warmer apples are less likely to generate an "appetizing->food" type response
04:32:02 -!- Robdgreat has quit ("Error 1606. Press any key to continue.").
04:33:03 <RodgerTheGreat> if pikhq confirms anything similar to my results in a different test environment, we can get some conclusive data by holding a properly conducted double-blind study
04:41:29 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
04:49:34 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: I meant "trying it tomorrow". XD
04:49:48 <pikhq> You know, when I'm around *conscious* people.
05:00:57 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined.
05:11:45 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection timed out).
05:47:28 -!- Robdgreat has joined.
05:51:39 -!- ehird`_ has joined.
06:06:08 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC. Few women a).
06:23:41 <GregorR> They're having the Free Baby Expo.
06:23:50 <GregorR> Nice, because babies are usually pretty expensive.
06:42:46 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
06:53:54 -!- bsmntbom1dood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
06:57:14 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
09:30:21 -!- ehird`- has joined.
09:42:10 -!- Guilt has joined.
09:42:38 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit ("using sirc version 2.211").
09:47:02 -!- ehird`- has quit.
10:04:27 -!- ehird`_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
10:07:05 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
10:25:51 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: www.XLhost.de )").
10:30:16 -!- Guilt has quit ("CGI:IRC at http://freenode.bafsoft.ath.cx:14464/ (EOF)").
11:07:04 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection).
11:20:39 -!- SEO_DUDE15 has joined.
11:49:38 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: well, not techincally dragons
11:49:46 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: and more foreplay than sex
11:50:09 * SimonRC realises that that might be a bit puzzling out of context
11:50:33 <SimonRC> (my pic http://users.durge.org/~sc/Kigdatsi/pics/Kig_20070922.png )
11:50:55 <SimonRC> according to people elsenet, it is "cute"
12:16:31 -!- oklopol has joined.
12:44:16 -!- SEO_DUDE15 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
12:44:35 -!- puzzlet has joined.
13:38:03 -!- Guilt has joined.
13:52:29 -!- jix has joined.
14:08:06 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
14:08:16 -!- jix has joined.
14:28:40 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR: but how, praytell, do they store the free babies? Surely not in plastic storage bins!
14:29:55 <RodgerTheGreat> probably because whenever you see something like that on the internet, you know there's more
14:32:31 <SimonRC> Rule 34 applies here I know.
14:32:54 <SimonRC> A dragon friend of mine has dragon porn, apparently.
14:33:14 <RodgerTheGreat> it just kinda peaks my "creepy furry porn" meter, and makes me afraid
14:33:24 <SimonRC> they aren't furries, for a start
14:33:53 <SimonRC> and there is some extremely disturbing stuff in my head that will remain in my head or nowhere
14:34:26 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
14:34:56 <SimonRC> they look like dragons, and their natural stance is 4-legged
14:36:15 <SimonRC> if they stand on 2 legs, they look less suited for it than (say) allosaurus
14:37:38 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: but yeah, maybe not totally suitable for human consumption
14:38:00 * SimonRC is glad that he didn't explain the significance of what is happening.
14:38:05 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
15:11:27 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
16:03:37 <RodgerTheGreat> everyone has their little fantasies, and they belong inside one's skull
16:05:16 -!- Guilt has quit ("CGI:IRC at http://freenode.bafsoft.ath.cx:14464/ (EOF)").
16:07:03 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: you could hardly call what I drew explicit
16:33:58 <GregorR> The foreplay before dragon blowjobs is just as explicit as dragon blowjobs.
16:35:49 <GregorR> Of course not - it's the foreplay :P
16:35:55 <SimonRC> aaaaaaaaargh! how many people have thought that!
16:36:25 <SimonRC> there is no oral sex or potential oral sex involved
16:36:55 <SimonRC> for a start, it doesn't work for them (they are Kigdatsi, notdragons)
16:37:27 <RodgerTheGreat> SimonRC: here's a shovel- it looks like you're working on digging yourself in deeper
16:38:57 <SimonRC> it is (roughly speaking) a psychic effect, not a physical one
16:39:48 <RodgerTheGreat> because psychic blowjobs between Kigdatsi are much better than physical blowjobs between dragons.
16:41:11 -!- sebbu has joined.
16:41:54 <SimonRC> will you shut up about blowjobs
16:42:03 <SimonRC> you are reading too much into this
16:45:37 <bsmntbombdood> SimonRC: explain the significance of what is happening!
16:45:55 <SimonRC> in the species design I deliberately took the physical side out of their sex. it is all brain-to-brain stuff. About half of their brain mass is in 8 clusters around their body (distributed brain idea nicked from cockroaches).
16:46:02 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: http://users.durge.org/~sc/Kigdatsi/pics/invite-only/Kig_20070922.png
16:46:47 <SimonRC> the one on the left is using REMI to produce effects in one of the secondary brains of the one on the right
16:48:40 <SimonRC> if they want to reproduce they fuck the same way many other species do
16:50:30 <SimonRC> but they only need to reproduce once per lifetime to maintain the population level, of course
16:50:52 <bsmntbombdood> but there's no reward for reproduction, because they can just do it mentally?
16:51:14 <SimonRC> they rationally know that the population level must be maintained, so they do so.
16:51:56 <SimonRC> they are Kigdatsi, they use rationality in a lot of places where evolution fitted us with irrational desires
16:53:21 <SimonRC> they were created by a human civilisation more advanced that us in a parallel universe a couple of centuries ago
16:54:57 <SimonRC> they were thought up by me
17:08:36 <SimonRC> I have no skill at composing a narrative
17:08:59 <SimonRC> and a species, and to some extent a culture
17:11:06 <SimonRC> maybe I will become motivated to make a story outof it
17:30:36 -!- Sgeo has joined.
17:55:46 -!- Tayn has joined.
17:56:33 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:10:27 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: Address my non sequitur?
18:13:12 <oerjan> sequire non est necesse
18:13:27 <oerjan> or something like that
18:15:04 <GregorR> Here, I'll translate that from humorlang to IRClang for you.
18:15:16 <GregorR> <bsmntbombdood> GregorR: like my hat? <GregorR> wtf
18:16:19 <Tayn> Non sequitur is a comment with no relation to the previous one. :P
18:16:50 <oerjan> Like rotten apples on a string.
18:19:11 <GregorR> Are you insulting my necklace?
18:21:54 <Tayn> It is swollen.
18:22:56 * SimonRC sees that they are using the Dada library for SATRE.
18:24:40 <oerjan> the library fines are outrageous, though.
18:27:30 -!- Tritonio has joined.
18:33:33 -!- Tayn has changed nick to Shadikka.
18:33:45 <Shadikka> I wondered why NickServ said nothing to me :D
18:39:13 -!- Tritonio has quit ("Bye...").
18:57:04 <oklopol> i thought the pic wasn't explicit enough
18:57:15 <oklopol> we need to see some action
18:59:29 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined.
19:03:09 <oklopol> SimonRC: the thing about kingdatsi i read was so good i actually didn't know they were made by you even though you talk about them 24/7... this is a compliment, because the better a thing i see is, the harder for me it is to believe it's made by someone i know :P
19:03:16 <oklopol> i'm fairly sure you could write scifi
19:05:29 <oklopol> i don't read much scifi, so i may not be that reliable a critic, but try to be encouraged!
19:10:32 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection timed out).
19:12:32 <SimonRC> oklopol: I am no good at characters
19:13:02 <SimonRC> oklopol: "action" isn't much to see anyway
19:13:30 <SimonRC> they have their foreheads pressed together. most else doesn't matter, though they will probably be lying down
19:14:31 <SimonRC> If reproducing as well, they will have their bodies together front-to-front, leaving few possible positions.
19:46:12 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
20:05:53 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
20:10:11 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
20:20:54 -!- bsmntbom1dood has quit (Connection timed out).
20:26:30 -!- Shadikka has quit.
20:38:18 <RodgerTheGreat> I think I've decided what my least favorite phrase is.
20:39:11 <RodgerTheGreat> I hate it when someone responds to a statement that's remotely technical in nature with "In English?"
20:39:45 <RodgerTheGreat> It indicates both a lack of understanding and a disdain for the ability to understand at the same time
20:40:18 * SimonRC sometimes says "Detail?", pronounced as the verb.
20:40:36 <SimonRC> oops, I meant "Detail.", of course
21:40:20 -!- ihope__ has joined.
21:40:40 -!- ihope__ has changed nick to ihope.
21:42:33 -!- RedDak has joined.
21:55:45 <oklopol> i haven't listened to much of it, but great stuff
21:56:59 <oklopol> heh, i doubt you can point out anything i admit to be a problem
21:57:50 <oklopol> using different sets of instruments is never bad, unless it blurs the melody of course
21:59:09 <oklopol> do you happen to play stepmania? :P
22:00:05 <oklopol> making gorgasm's anal scewer for it xD
22:01:09 <bsmntbombdood> i actually had to look up word in this song's title
22:01:50 <bsmntbombdood> but i don't understand how you could have a progeny of the apocalypse
22:02:15 <oklopol> try Carcass - Incarnated Solvent Abuse
22:02:36 <oklopol> i had to check pretty much every word xD
22:02:47 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
22:02:50 <oklopol> http://www.siatec.net/archenemy/lyrics/deadeyesseenofuture.html well many, anyway
22:03:04 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
22:03:26 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure it's meant to be :D
22:03:47 <oklopol> carcass is great stuff too
22:04:15 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:04:51 <oklopol> i mostly enjoy the lyrics separately, you can't make the words out, so the screaming is just a nice additional noise
22:05:43 <oklopol> [L. desinens, p. pr. of desinere, desitum, to leave off, cease; de- + sinere to let, allow.]
22:05:45 <oklopol> Ending; forming an end; lowermost. [Obs.] Their desinent parts, fish. B. Jonson.
22:05:48 <oklopol> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
22:05:49 <bsmntbombdood> oh, "a termination or ending, as the final line of a verse."
22:06:21 <oklopol> i think it's about grinding ppl into glue or smth
22:06:54 <oklopol> i love death metal lyrics, make me laugh
22:08:05 <oklopol> well, most of it is pretty clear anyways
22:08:53 <oklopol> once you look up the made up words they're using...
22:09:00 <bsmntbombdood> dehydrated, dry glutenate brewed for frivolous solvent abuse?
22:17:40 <oklopol> urr so... not bread, methinks
22:17:54 <oklopol> something that's rich in gluten
22:18:35 <oklopol> "ate" suffix is a bit hard to generalize..
22:18:44 <oklopol> and can't find the meaning of "glutenate"
22:19:29 <oklopol> so, methinks it means the stuff you get from the bones when you grind them!
22:19:38 * oklopol is pretty certain there's grinding there
22:20:00 <oklopol> i don't know much about biology
22:20:17 <oklopol> well yeah, but that's boring
22:21:21 <oklopol> who said there's any sniffing? i was thinking more like a glue sex party
22:22:29 <oklopol> that can mean a lot of things
22:22:37 <oklopol> i assumed you assumed it meant the sniffing
22:22:54 <oklopol> in the middle of an interesting conversating like this :|
22:23:26 <bsmntbombdood> i would assume solvent abuse is as in glue sniffing
22:23:45 <oklopol> that may be more probable than mine.
22:24:14 <oklopol> you can't imagine glue-related sex stuff?
22:24:48 <oklopol> but, as i said, yours may be a teensy bit more probable.
22:24:57 <SimonRC> OMG, we're stuck in this position!
22:25:37 <oklopol> some people like cutting their genitals, i imagine being glued from ones penis into a vagina might be a lot nicer.
22:25:50 <oklopol> wonder if this is the right chan for this :P
22:28:28 <oklopol> http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/gorgasm/masticatetodominate.html#1
22:29:16 <oklopol> read the lyrics of corpsefiend... :D
22:30:10 <oklopol> that gets so overboard i can't imagine anyone taking those lyrics seriously, but fun stuff :DD
22:31:07 <bsmntbombdood> Razor's slice my cock's enticed. \ I feed from the pain, deep within my punctured cock. \ Veins exposed, spewing everywhere.
22:31:43 <bsmntbombdood> Searching for newly dead to excavate. \ I'll display her rotting corpse in erotic state.
22:32:19 <oklopol> that "relatives" part is unbelievable
22:33:08 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:33:24 <oklopol> who needs poetic lyrics? let's just think of something really obnoxious and write it down as it is
22:33:55 <oklopol> cannibal corpse does the same, but that's actually very popular, even you know it!
22:34:40 <oklopol> in Deadfuck, the vocalist is unbelievable
22:35:04 <oklopol> i've made a brainfuck-derivative called deadfuck in honor of thta :P
22:37:08 <oklopol> there was this great vid where this guy sang a song by cannibal corpse, with piano and acoustic bass
22:37:55 <oklopol> the intro was "i think the lyrics of cannibal corpse aren't that bad, but indeed quite beautiful, once you remove all the yelling" or something
22:38:12 <oklopol> and then he started singing about killing and raping a girl
22:38:19 <oklopol> and the whole audience laughed
22:38:34 <oklopol> i can't find it... don't know what to search for...
22:40:15 <bsmntbombdood> Som en flokk av helveds opphav \ Og forvaltere av foraktens sønn \ Parerer vi deres list med avskyens prakt
22:40:38 <oklopol> cc has a song on their live album called "i cum blood", before the song the vocalist yells "this next song is about shooting blood out of you cock"
22:40:48 <oklopol> that's oerjan's language, methinks
22:41:11 <oklopol> hmm, can't translate that :<
22:41:23 <oklopol> avsky is hatred or something
22:41:49 <oklopol> urgh, too different from swedish
22:51:33 <bsmntbombdood> something like Like a flock of hellspawns \ And stewards of the son of despite \ We parry their guile with the magnificence of disgust
23:59:46 <oklopol> http://vjn.fi/oklopol/stepmania/
00:07:25 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:11:53 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+").
00:18:42 -!- immibis has joined.
00:23:06 -!- immibis has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | IRP in #irp | Don't spam the channel with EgoBot commands, /query EgoBot.
00:31:03 <oklopol> not the first time someone puts themselves a reminder in the topic :P
00:38:23 -!- immibis has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | IRP in #irp | Don't spam the channel with EgoBot commands, /query EgoBot | Rules: 1) Do what the topic says 2) Don't follow any rules, even this one 3) if you like role-playing games, go to http://arianne.sourceforge.net/.
00:39:59 <oklopol> you were here when we had the last topicfest
00:41:23 -!- immibis has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | IRP in #irp | Don't spam the channel with EgoBot commands, /query EgoBot | Rules: 1) Do what the topic says 2) Don't follow any rules, even this one 3) if you like role-playing games, go to http://arianne.sourceforge.net/ 4) GO YELLOW TEAM!.
00:41:26 <oklopol> like a topic orgy, only more clothes and beer
00:41:41 -!- immibis has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | IRP in #irp | Don't spam the channel with EgoBot commands, /query EgoBot.
00:42:51 <immibis> is it too late to enter in last year's esolang contest?
00:43:10 <oklopol> ask sukoshi when she returns, i guess :P
00:45:57 <immibis> she's online. but not in any channels.
00:46:21 <oklopol> most likely means she's on +s channels
00:46:44 <oklopol> hmm... i recall you knew irc pretty well last time i talked to you :|
00:47:12 <oklopol> well, open her priv and ask, people love it when random people start harrassing them
00:49:37 <immibis> what? glass doesn't have xor?
00:50:04 <oklopol> hmm... i guess it just has arithmetic
00:50:35 <immibis> i'll just have to make do with plus-encryption then.
00:50:59 <immibis> what's the ascii code for 'A'?
00:51:15 <oklopol> much speed, you can do boolean lists
00:52:48 <oklopol> that is: xor can - surprise! - be emulated in any tc language
00:59:39 <oklopol> immibis: i hope that was a joke :P
01:00:18 <oklopol> unless you're the little brother you're always talking about
01:00:47 <immibis> i mean, not where is egobot, but why has he been taking a nap for at least 36 hours?
01:01:49 <oklopol> that "even brainfuck" was what i meant
01:02:20 <oklopol> because i have a "clever guy" mark on your nick in my memory
01:02:49 <oklopol> (my clever guy -marks are 100% flood proof)
01:03:33 <immibis> duh...me be dumb...one plus one is...what does plus mean?
01:19:27 <immibis> does S.d divide after or before the character at pos, or does it remove the character at pos?
01:21:00 <immibis> cancel that last bit, i know it divides a string.
01:21:22 <oklopol> hmm... don't you have an interpreter?
01:22:12 <immibis> or why would i be writing a program in glass?
01:22:41 <ihope> Number, you say... this sounds like an interesting concept. Can they be represented faithfully in ZF?
01:24:01 <ihope> Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory, I believe.
01:24:08 <ihope> Not sure I'm spelling it right.
01:26:05 <oklopol> ihope: i'd say yes, but it's just a hunch
01:26:43 <oklopol> the concept isn't all that clear to me yet
01:27:00 <oklopol> but i think it has something to do with amounts
01:27:44 <RodgerTheGreat> I drew a new comic this evening: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1190852142-understanding.png
01:30:09 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: great stuff
01:43:18 -!- puzzlet has joined.
01:43:21 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
01:43:21 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
01:43:59 <ihope> RodgerTheGreat: is there more?
01:44:33 <RodgerTheGreat> ihope: well, it's part of a strip I draw for a local newsletter
01:45:13 <RodgerTheGreat> http://rodger.nonlogic.org/images/ <- look here, starting with Comic001 and continue in that fashion
01:45:34 <oklopol> http://www.answers.com/topic/automata-based-programming <<< i knew someone has had to come up with that before me
01:46:12 <oklopol> i should read the internet someday...
01:47:27 <RodgerTheGreat> bsmntbombdood: I'm more or less dead serious in that one
01:48:21 -!- puzzlet has joined.
01:53:18 <ihope> John Earnest? Hmm.
01:54:14 <RodgerTheGreat> sorry to shatter the fourth wall of the internet and all
01:54:44 <oklopol> if someone asks me my name, i say oklopol
01:54:51 <ihope> If I ever create that website I'm after, you'll all get to see my name.
01:54:57 <ihope> Might happen, might not.
01:55:26 <oklopol> well i guess i say whichever pops first into my head
01:55:28 <ihope> Though once I get the hosting and such set up, a copyright notice will appear pretty quickly.
01:56:04 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: i hate this game
01:56:07 <ihope> I think I can guess GregorR's name.
01:56:12 <ihope> oklopol: you lost The Game?
01:56:16 <ihope> If you didn't, then I did, I guess.
01:57:03 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: sorry to tell you this, but i'm fairly sure you lost the game
01:57:17 <ihope> You can't lose so soon after someone else's lost.
01:57:31 <ihope> You can only lose after it's been forgotten.
01:57:57 <oklopol> oh, wouldn't massive losing loops be nicer?
01:58:46 <oklopol> eh, naturally you can't lose just after you have lost yourself, that'd be stupid
01:59:28 <RodgerTheGreat> I've begun spreading a culture that has an additional rule: When everyone is infected, the game is over and something new will take it's place
02:00:05 <oklopol> but there's nothing wrong with a little X
02:00:12 <oklopol> now let me think of the word X.
02:00:21 <RodgerTheGreat> I'd really like a minor in Memetic Engineering, if it existed.
02:01:34 <ihope> Create a command that accomplishes the same thing as this one and try to make it be obeyed as many times as possible.
02:01:59 <ihope> Look, mutating virus.
02:02:17 <oklopol> you know, i was thinking of mutating viruses today :|
02:02:30 <ihope> Where did what come from?
02:02:36 <ihope> oklopol: computer, biological, or memetic?
02:02:37 <oklopol> that's a *pretty scary* coincidence
02:02:53 <oklopol> hmm, i don't even know what memetic is.
02:03:09 <ihope> "Create a command that accomplishes the same thing as this one and try to make it be obeyed as many times as possible."
02:03:26 <ihope> Things like warnings are also memetic viruses.
02:03:35 <ihope> Warnings, factoids...
02:06:41 <ihope> http://www.losethegame.com/origins.htm
02:11:52 <oklopol> because i'm starting to think it's not such a good idea after all
02:13:32 <ihope> Sleep is for the week.
02:13:43 <ihope> That is, all your sleep for the week must be done in one session.
02:13:49 <oklopol> but... it's the week right now :|
02:14:02 <bsmntbombdood> oklopol: sabbath bloody sabbath, nothing more to do, living just for dying, dying just for you
02:14:22 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: i like you too
02:14:44 <oklopol> i guess i'll watch some futurama and forget my troubles
02:15:15 <ihope> So set your alarm for 6 AM Monday and by the crying gads don't go to sleep before Friday's stuff is over.
02:17:27 <oklopol> ihope: but... i don't have stuff :<
02:18:14 <ihope> Then just wake up Monday and go to bed any time Friday or later.
02:19:02 -!- ihope__ has joined.
02:19:23 <oklopol> but i think i may have a few naps before friday...
02:20:41 <ihope__> Wait, you don't have stuff?
02:20:43 <ihope__> Then sleep for 20 minutes every 4 hours, like Real Men do.
02:21:11 <bsmntbombdood> that would actually work with my school schedule, too
02:21:21 * ihope__ ponders his school schedule
02:21:47 <ihope__> 7:40-11:20 then 11:56-2:30, I guess.
02:22:12 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: i have one complaint about your comics: Comic 010 and Comic18 aren't in alphabetical order :<<
02:22:33 <ihope__> You call that alphabetical?
02:22:58 <oklopol> my alphabet is called ascii, but alphabetical nevertheless
02:23:21 <ihope__> Then they are in alphabetical order, no?
02:23:54 <oklopol> ihope__: what comes before 1?
02:24:10 <ihope__> That's what we're learning in Spanish class.
02:24:23 <oklopol> uberman would be easy if you had someone to do it with, physically that is.
02:24:37 <oklopol> since you could have naps when the other one is awake
02:25:29 <oklopol> ihope__: i don't get that :|
02:26:03 <oklopol> i mean, i don't see over one spaces next to each other
02:26:10 <oklopol> i don't know how to turn them of
02:26:17 <oklopol> i guess it's called uninstall...
02:27:20 <oklopol> ihope__: okay okay, they are in alphabetical order, but there's definately something wrong with how the strip numbers are represented!
02:28:50 <oklopol> actually, what would be even better would be to have a group of people doing it, so you'd have nice peer pressure
02:29:16 <oklopol> nothing wrong with a group of people just doing it though
02:31:32 <oklopol> we should start arranging uberman orgies! "start uberman's through a week of hot steamy sex in good company!"
02:31:58 <oklopol> i've never been to a real orgy :<
02:32:24 <oklopol> i've been to certain orgy-like events though
02:33:09 <oklopol> we used to have quite wild parties when i was in elementary school :D
02:33:25 <oklopol> elementary... 7-9th grades
02:33:26 <pikhq> Given that (IIRC) bsmntbombdood is *my* age, I doubt that he's been at one, either.
02:33:35 <pikhq> oklopol: Middle school?
02:34:29 <oklopol> pikhq: i think you're older than him
02:34:45 <oklopol> unless your ages change magically.
02:34:50 <oklopol> like that could ever happen
02:35:10 <oklopol> i don't see how age has anything to do with having orgies
02:35:10 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.flemcomics.com/comics/20000824.jpg <--- urophagic humor anyone?
02:35:57 <bsmntbombdood> oklopol: customarily, young people have little sexual experience
02:36:00 <oklopol> opens slowly... i guess many people do
02:36:25 <oklopol> well i guess that's pretty obvious
02:36:50 <oklopol> i guess what i meant is being young is no excuse for not having been to orgies
02:37:01 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out).
02:37:13 <oklopol> life should be about constant mating
02:39:57 <oklopol> it just turned out i'm gonna pass 0 courses this period \o/
02:44:55 * pikhq will arrange for that
02:44:56 <ihope__> oklopol: how many courses do you have?
02:45:02 <ihope__> And how many will you be failing?
02:45:03 * pikhq thought bsmntbombdood was 17. . .
02:46:04 <oklopol> i didn't go much to school, and our principal decided no courses will be passed unless one gets ones parents' to sign that they you haven't been to school
02:46:16 <oklopol> i forgot to return those in time
02:46:54 <oklopol> i did some refactoring and pressed enter a bit too early
02:47:12 <ihope__> Do some refactoring and press enter and it makes them be returned late?
02:49:29 <bsmntbombdood> i have to write a presentation about the word "rampant"
02:50:19 <oklopol> i find it pretty odd my parents need to know whether i'm at school, 1) i'm 18 2) they don't care 3) i don't see them that often 4) i could quit school and the school would not tell my parents.
02:51:29 <oklopol> both courses are mandatory, ofc, so i'm basically failing high-school unless i do something drastic.
02:52:02 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: that would be heaven
02:52:22 <ihope__> Have you talked it over with... someone?
02:52:53 <ihope__> Hmm, I wouldn't want to experience actual brainfuck from any direction.
02:53:12 <ihope__> Especially second person. That would be gross and possibly fatal.
02:53:17 <oklopol> ihope__: i have talked to random ppl on irc, i might go talk to the principal on friday, tomorrow i'm enjoying my day off no matter what the situation is ;)
02:53:25 <bsmntbombdood> brainfuck for the computers, buttfuck for the humans
02:53:48 <ihope__> Would it be brainfuck of the computers?
02:53:54 <oklopol> yes yes, but how would we get money for the electricity and the lotions?
02:54:33 <oklopol> ah, why didn't i think of that
02:55:10 <ihope__> So, am I still the youngest one here?
02:55:28 <oklopol> hard to say, youngest from the active ones.
02:56:44 <bsmntbombdood> in 1.25 i will legally be able to take naked pictures of myself!
02:56:45 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood is 15, clog is prolly <5, GregorR is... 18? immibis wouldn't tell me his age :P lament is older, i'm 18, pikhq is 17, RodgerTheGreat is 19, Sgeo is... 17? (random guess), SimonRC is... 17?
02:56:58 <Sgeo> lol random guess
02:57:23 <oklopol> darn, thought you might be
02:57:24 <Sgeo> Where did the guess come from?
02:57:35 <ihope__> My, this room is filled with teenagers.
02:57:36 <oklopol> i categorize ppl a lot in irc
02:57:51 <ihope__> (And surely GregorR's in his twenties?)
02:58:51 <oklopol> well, might be 19 already, ppl get older sometimes
02:59:08 <oklopol> but that's pretty recent, unless i'm completely mistaken
03:00:21 <pikhq> oklopol: I thought Gregor had a bachelor's already. ;)
03:00:54 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure he was 18 at some point! :D
03:01:10 <ihope__> Gregor is, was, or will be 18 at some point.
03:01:17 <ihope__> Unless he is not and will die before 18.
03:01:25 <ihope__> Is not and was not, that is.
03:01:36 <ihope__> And that would be a shame, really.
03:02:11 <oklopol> i'll have to check what a bachelor's is
03:03:24 <ihope__> oklopol: about what country do you live in?
03:04:10 <ihope__> I live sort of between Canada and Mexico. Closer to Canada, really.
03:04:51 <ihope__> Sort of easy to tell, really.
03:05:02 <ihope__> I'm using the word "really" too much, really.
03:05:39 <oklopol> ihope__: about why did you ask?
03:06:45 <ihope__> Wondering about how school is organized over there.
03:07:26 <oklopol> i'm sort of an expert on that, up to high-school level
03:07:43 <oklopol> had a 11-year education about it
03:09:07 <bsmntbombdood> http://dl.ziza.ru/other/092007/14/pics/43_pics_44538.jpg
03:09:10 <oklopol> school doesn't teach anything before university, and once you get there, you're already learned everything it has to offer, unless you've really tried not to.
03:11:13 <ihope__> I think my calculus class hasn't really been teaching me much.
03:11:33 <oklopol> ihope__: we didn't have calculus at your level.
03:11:54 <oklopol> are you in an berschool of some sorts?
03:12:23 <ihope__> AP calculus AB, plain old high school.
03:12:33 <ihope__> 11th grade, generally taken around 16 years.
03:12:44 <oklopol> ah, you've skipped grades?
03:13:11 <oklopol> i would've done that, but i was too violent, so they didn't let me xD
03:13:35 <oklopol> i guess i wasn't exactly violent, more like disturbed
03:13:44 <ihope__> I pretty much didn't start school at all until I entered high school at the 9th grade at 12.
03:14:00 <ihope__> bsmntbombdood: sounds like a big jump...
03:15:00 <oklopol> sure, but it's dangerous to the other kids.
03:15:17 <oklopol> i have great stories from when i started school <3
03:16:16 <ihope__> What are you doing that's dangerous to others?
03:16:19 <oklopol> i was in math class today, we were learning about density functions....
03:17:20 <oklopol> 2 hours it took the teacher to explain http://www.answers.com/density+functions?cat=technology
03:17:30 <oklopol> anyone can learn that in a minute
03:17:54 <oklopol> ihope__: this one time the boys were playing football
03:18:03 <oklopol> so, i decided they shouldn't be playing it without me.
03:18:14 <oklopol> not that they wouldn't have taken me, i didn't ask.
03:18:26 <oklopol> so, i took the ball and started walking away
03:18:44 <oklopol> and the owner of the ball asked me if i could give it back, since i kinda ruined their game
03:18:56 <oklopol> well, i naturally kicked him in the balls as hard as i could.
03:19:29 <oklopol> i was almost sent to a ...what's it called... a school for baaad kids
03:20:32 <oklopol> nowadays i'm the complete opposite
03:21:47 <pikhq> ihope__: I actually did learn a good deal in AP calc. . .
03:22:04 <pikhq> Of course, that's because I went in not knowing more than the bare basics of derivatives. . .
03:22:40 * pikhq mostly read during class, and figured stuff out at home
03:23:35 <pikhq> Wasn't too bad of a strategy; got a 5 on the test.
03:24:29 <oklopol> i usually don't do anything and use my own techniques in the test
03:26:05 <oklopol> i wonder how much harder your math is
03:26:22 <oklopol> prolly either way, at least
03:26:48 <bsmntbombdood> check out this kickassness: abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmntbombdood/rampant.pdf
03:27:51 <pikhq> At my school, doing calculus as a senior is considered "ubergod" material.
03:27:55 <pikhq> I did it as a junior.
03:28:37 <pikhq> It also puts me in the wonderful status of having that be a part of college application material. ;p
03:37:18 -!- ihope__ has quit (Connection timed out).
03:41:50 <oklopol> oaky, i guess i have to admit i'm pretty tired...
03:45:30 <oklopol> hmm... it seems i'm not the only one who hasn't gotten their parents' signature!
03:45:41 <oklopol> there's hope in the end of the light!
03:54:29 <immibis> glass programs are allowed to be on more than one line, aren't they?
03:56:46 <immibis> yes they must be - the programs in the efa are.
04:08:27 <immibis> does glass-0.12 support input?
04:11:44 <immibis> does glass-0.12 support input?
04:14:35 <immibis> i repeat: does glass-0.12 support input?
04:26:06 -!- dmwit has joined.
04:26:13 -!- dmwit has left (?).
04:28:37 -!- sclv has joined.
04:30:44 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection).
04:55:51 -!- toBogE has joined.
04:57:41 -!- immibis has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | IRP in #irp | Don't spam the channel with EgoBot commands, /query EgoBot | Don't spam the channel with toBogE commands, /join #toboge | Don't spam the channel with bsmnt_bot commands, take him to your own channel..
04:58:24 <immibis> how do i get it to identify with nickserv?
04:58:53 <immibis> i'm running EgoBot under toBogE's nick.
04:59:23 <immibis> but how does egobot identify with nickserv?
04:59:34 <toBogE> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
04:59:36 <toBogE> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
04:59:52 <oklopol> ah, yeah, i decided to call to school about that course thing...... yes, that's why i'm awake!
05:00:14 <immibis> i see it's got commands for the languages that didn't compile...i wonder...
05:00:53 <immibis> anyway, does anyone know how to make it identify with nickserv?
05:00:58 <oklopol> now i'll really try to sleep ->
05:01:04 <oklopol> immibis: don't you have the code?
05:01:33 -!- toBogE has quit (Remote closed the connection).
05:02:33 <oklopol> i don't know, even less i know what you're allowed to do with the source. probably you can add something to it
05:02:37 * immibis looks up toboge's password
05:03:40 <immibis> when i snap my fingers, you will fall asleep.
05:03:54 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
05:03:55 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
05:06:30 -!- toBogE has joined.
05:06:54 -!- toBogE has quit (Remote closed the connection).
05:08:18 -!- toBogE has joined.
05:09:42 <toBogE> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
05:09:43 <toBogE> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
05:10:54 <toBogE> 1 immibis: daemon cat bf
05:11:33 <immibis> !daemon ctcp bf +[[-]+.,[.,]+.+++++++++.]
05:11:36 <toBogE> ERROR: ld.so: object './ckpt/libckpt.so' from LD_PRELOAD cannot be preloaded: ignored.
05:18:30 <RodgerTheGreat> has anyone here ever made an interactive implementation of BASIC, ala TinyBASIC?
05:18:55 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm starting one for a game, and I was wondering if anyone had any tips or tricks that make it simpler
05:35:08 <immibis> !bf ++++++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+[>>+<<-]+++++[>++++++++++<-]>---.>+.+++++++.+++++.<.>------------.-.++++++++++++++++++.-----------.------->>>>++++[>++++++++<-]>.<<<<<<.>++++++++++++++.+.++++.<.>------.---------.+++++++++++++++.------------------.+++.----.+++++++++++++.+++++.<.>-----------------.+++++++.+++++.<.>--.-----------.++++++++++++++++++++.-------.-----------.+++++.---.+++++++++++++.
05:35:11 <toBogE> /bin/bash /opt/netbeans/bin/launcher
05:35:27 * immibis took a while to write that, bf_txtgen doesn't work.
05:35:43 <immibis> evidently egobot was only designed to run on one computer, that one being gregorr's.
05:36:56 -!- toBogE has quit (Remote closed the connection).
05:41:01 -!- toBogE has joined.
05:43:28 -!- toBogE has quit (Remote closed the connection).
05:43:47 -!- toBogE has joined.
05:44:40 -!- toBogE has changed nick to CaptainObvious.
05:44:47 -!- CaptainObvious has changed nick to toBogE.
05:45:04 <toBogE> Drat! Immibis forgot my nickserv password!
05:49:45 <toBogE> Hi[D[DI[D'[Dm toBo[D[Dg[Ce!
05:50:20 -!- sclv has changed nick to sclv-away.
05:50:20 -!- sclv-away has changed nick to sclv.
05:50:43 -!- sclv has changed nick to sclv-away.
05:52:47 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
05:53:22 <GregorR> immibis: I didn't really consider portability very much, no.
05:53:39 <GregorR> immibis: It's F/OSS as a show of good faith, not a claim of portability ;)
05:54:38 <toBogE> i've managed to get banned on #uncyclopedia
05:55:01 <toBogE> just for because of the half-bot half-user thing...
05:55:23 <immibis> i'm sending irc commands through toboge.
05:56:03 <immibis> exec 5<>/dev/tcp/irc.freenode.net/6667 ; ./egobot toBogE immibis esoteric 10485760 <&5 2>&5 ; cat >&5
06:30:22 <immibis> /dev/tcp/HOSTNAME/PORT will connect to the specified hostname and port, and acts like a file (well, more like a pipe, but you get the idea)
06:30:31 <immibis> also you can use /dev/udp for a udp connection.
06:52:33 -!- puzzlet has joined.
07:03:19 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
07:19:28 -!- Arrogant has joined.
07:49:07 -!- toBogE has quit (Client Quit).
07:50:40 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
07:57:10 <immibis> hmm...i won't be able to code my glass steganography program after all because glass 0.7 doesn't support input and glass 0.12 doesn't download properly on this windows computer.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:19:02 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving").
10:28:06 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
11:54:44 -!- ihope__ has joined.
11:55:05 -!- ihope__ has changed nick to ihope.
12:25:56 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
12:41:58 -!- sclv-away has changed nick to sclv.
13:00:24 -!- jix has joined.
14:00:11 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
14:00:21 -!- jix has joined.
14:52:29 -!- puzzlet has joined.
14:57:16 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:45:40 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined.
15:56:16 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:00:16 * SimonRC finds the ultimate page-widener http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/Along_the_River_7-119-3.jpg
16:15:30 -!- sebbu has joined.
16:19:32 <GregorR> SimonRC: Viewing that on a computer leaves something to be desired :P
16:19:37 <GregorR> Unless of course you have about twenty monitors.
16:20:36 <SimonRC> or you can scroll sideways
16:22:12 <oklopol> now where am i gonna get 18 monitors...
16:24:25 <SimonRC> out th back of the engineering building where the chuck away old kit?
16:24:31 <SimonRC> I acquired a few things there
16:46:12 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
16:48:19 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:48:22 -!- puzzlet has joined.
16:57:38 -!- bsmntbom1dood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:24:55 -!- Hail_Spacecake has joined.
17:26:51 <SimonRC> Hail_Spacecake: it may take a while
17:28:16 <oklopol> Hail_Spacecake: search le wiki.
17:28:39 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
17:29:03 <Hail_Spacecake> Sumatra: A language for resource-aware mobile programs
18:12:00 <oklopol> hey, change of ip won't make ircing less fun!
18:33:05 <lament> bsmntbombdood: think positively, now you have a friend in california!
18:49:47 -!- Hail_Spacecake has left (?).
19:26:54 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:31:12 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:35:07 -!- puzzlet has joined.
19:47:01 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
20:05:53 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
20:43:54 -!- ihope__ has joined.
20:44:09 -!- ihope__ has changed nick to ihope.
21:00:48 -!- ihope__ has joined.
21:18:15 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out).
21:21:20 -!- Tritonio has joined.
21:39:54 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
21:39:55 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:46:07 -!- puzzlet has joined.
21:58:08 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:19:27 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
22:20:53 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:21:51 -!- puzzlet has joined.
22:36:04 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
22:36:46 -!- Tritonio has joined.
23:04:43 -!- Tritonio_ has joined.
23:06:20 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:18:45 -!- rutlov has joined.
23:26:45 -!- rutlov has left (?).
23:27:27 -!- ihope__ has changed nick to ihope.
23:48:42 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out).
23:53:32 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
00:16:38 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+").
00:19:18 -!- Herr_Rob has joined.
00:20:34 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:45:49 -!- Robdgreat has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:49:42 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out).
00:58:48 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:59:17 -!- puzzlet has joined.
01:04:24 -!- Herr_Rob has changed nick to Robdgreat.
01:33:20 <GregorR> I'm fairly sure that my NPDA interpreter achieves O(n)
01:33:49 <GregorR> Or, more accurately, O(l^k * n) where l is a constant, k is the lookahead (usually constant) and n is the string length.
01:36:44 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:45:12 <GregorR> What's #esoteric for anyway X_P
01:45:50 <RodgerTheGreat> you have to remember, though, that this is a highly asynchronous channel
01:46:33 <RodgerTheGreat> I started coding one, and I want to pick somebody's brain about it
01:46:43 <RodgerTheGreat> it's a somewhat complex language, all things considered
01:47:30 <GregorR> The easier the language, the more complicated the implementation.
01:53:11 <RodgerTheGreat> the main thing eating at me is that I *know* there must be really simple ways to do most of this, because I've seen freaking tiny implementations in the past
02:14:16 <RodgerTheGreat> however, when we get into the realm of 4k TinyBASIC implementations, it stands to reason that the algos can be cleaned up and made into a straightforward implementation that isn't just machinecode
02:19:15 -!- Sgeo has joined.
02:21:36 <GregorR> I made a video describing how I achieve O(n), but it's impossible to read *sigh*
02:22:13 <RodgerTheGreat> I liked your "how to implement a stack and functions with BF" video
02:22:24 <RodgerTheGreat> I think it's still floating around somewhere on my hard drive
02:23:49 <bsmntbombdood> i want to watch a video about how to implement a stack and functions with BF
02:25:26 <GregorR> Hm, anybody want a 98MB .avi of me talking that's difficult to read? :P
02:25:28 -!- oklopol has quit (Excess Flood).
02:25:28 -!- cmeme has quit (Excess Flood).
02:25:46 -!- oklopol has joined.
02:25:49 -!- cmeme has joined.
02:26:41 <GregorR> I can't write it in a way that's useful.
02:26:52 <GregorR> I'm much better at explaining things dynamically.
02:45:50 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
03:00:37 -!- immibis_ has joined.
03:19:09 -!- Sgeo has joined.
03:38:13 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
03:38:14 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
03:40:24 -!- immibis has joined.
04:19:07 <pikhq> I HATE BEING AWAY FROM HOME FROM 6 TO 5
04:37:04 <immibis> WHY IS EVERYONE SHOUTING IN CAPITALS?
04:37:12 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
04:37:37 -!- puzzlet has joined.
04:56:08 <immibis> don't you mean THIS ALBUM ROCKS?
05:00:00 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
05:00:48 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
05:10:07 <Sgeo> methinks he is ANGRY at SLX's nonresponsiveness..
05:10:49 <immibis> methinks whoever SLX is, he isn't on this channel.
05:12:47 <Sgeo> I put an object for sale just this night
05:12:57 <Sgeo> err, yesterday EST I guess
06:13:58 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
06:58:41 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat").
07:06:08 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
07:30:59 -!- immibis_ has quit ("BitchX-1.1-final -- just do it.").
07:45:40 <immibis> http://pastebin.ca/718231 is a sorting program in my language.
07:52:45 <immibis> oh and the interpreter is windows only.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:45:38 -!- kwertii has joined.
08:52:09 <immibis> ok, my esolang interpreter has all the features and understands all the commands i have thought of so far.
09:11:49 -!- anonfunc has joined.
09:11:53 <immibis> pity it can only process single digit numbers.
09:16:31 <immibis> can anyone think of something useful to do with single digit numbers?
09:18:50 <immibis> i already made a sorting program. it generates random digits and sorts them into piles, and burns them.
09:19:25 <immibis> this is a rube goldberg language.
09:19:42 <immibis> like RUBE but since i couldn't find any documentation for RUBE...
09:19:55 <g4lt-sb100> cant think of more rube goldberg than math without carrying ;P
09:20:18 <immibis> all addition and subtraction is modulo 16.
09:20:22 -!- oerjan has joined.
09:20:48 <g4lt-sb100> ...which is the hex version of no carry
09:21:04 <immibis> i used the letters for the components.
09:22:23 <immibis> not cards, conveyor belts, walls, and so on.
09:25:36 <immibis> the interpreter is buggy though
09:25:48 <immibis> for example, a 9 just got run over by a bulldozer
09:29:08 <immibis> i will have to implement more careful drivers.
09:29:46 <g4lt-sb100> yeah, bulldozewrs have to have CDLs ;P
09:29:54 <oerjan> http://catseye.tc/projects/rube/doc/rube.txt
09:33:17 <immibis> the drivers were looking for crates that hadn't moved in the last crate
09:33:32 <immibis> if there was one, they pushed it.
09:33:36 <immibis> otherwise they ran over it.
09:33:43 <immibis> it explains why my walls collapsed, anyway...
09:34:36 * immibis wonders what he was thinking when he wrote isdigit(program[y][x+1])!=' '
09:36:38 <immibis> ok, i've made one that prints a nine every time you type a digit.
09:38:03 <immibis> the interpreter is cool - it shows the current state of the machine
09:43:58 * immibis seems to have named his nine-printer "digital-root.rocb". D'oh!
09:45:08 <immibis> any other ideas apart from multi digit math?
09:46:44 -!- sp3tt has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
09:47:22 -!- sp3tt has joined.
09:56:44 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined.
09:58:53 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC. Give a man ).
10:07:16 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
10:29:14 -!- anonfunc has quit.
10:30:17 -!- anonfunc has joined.
10:35:17 -!- Arrogant has joined.
11:57:13 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
12:17:28 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving").
12:38:21 -!- kwertii has quit.
12:43:10 -!- jix has joined.
12:48:44 -!- anonfunc has quit.
13:18:44 -!- sebbu has joined.
14:57:25 -!- fizzie has joined.
15:38:33 -!- puzzlet has joined.
15:47:59 -!- sclv has quit.
15:50:39 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:26:17 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
16:34:05 -!- Tritonio_ has joined.
17:11:59 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:15:10 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
17:26:25 -!- bsmntbom1dood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:28:22 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
17:29:08 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:40:49 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined.
18:51:28 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:25:17 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
19:36:06 -!- bsmntbom1dood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:47:16 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
20:06:35 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:14:38 -!- RedDak has joined.
20:22:43 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:31:45 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:34:22 -!- oklopol has joined.
22:03:36 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:03:54 -!- ihope__ has joined.
22:04:19 -!- ihope__ has changed nick to ihope.
22:34:57 -!- kwertii has joined.
23:16:20 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:41:46 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:46:34 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
00:46:44 -!- jix has joined.
00:50:14 -!- immibis has joined.
00:54:30 <oklopol> well that was rather selfish, sorry
00:59:33 <ihope> What was rather selfish?
01:00:29 <ihope> I sort of say it every time I say anything.
01:00:34 -!- ihope has changed nick to uhope.
01:00:40 <uhope> There, now I'm completely selfless.
01:00:43 -!- uhope has changed nick to ihope.
01:01:13 -!- immibis has changed nick to ImmIbIs.
01:01:13 -!- ImmIbIs has changed nick to xxx.
01:01:41 -!- xxx has changed nick to ImmIbIs.
01:02:18 <ImmIbIs> I say it 3 times when I say anything, and 3 times additionally when I say this particular sentence.
01:03:06 <ihope> =-= immibis is now known as xxx
01:03:08 <ihope> =-= ImmIbIs is now known as xxx
01:03:13 <ihope> How'd you manage that?
01:03:48 <ihope> You changed nicks to xxx, then you changed nicks from something else to the one you already had.
01:03:49 <ImmIbIs> i changed to xxx because i thought i couldn't change just my capitalization, i thought i had to change my actual nick.
01:08:15 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
01:10:21 <ImmIbIs> i had to retrain some workers just now - they don't like packing N things into 0 boxes.
01:12:14 <ihope> I take it N is not 0.
01:12:15 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
01:12:31 <ImmIbIs> they still don't like packing 0 things into 0 boxes.
01:12:50 <ImmIbIs> so i trained them to throw the things away if they get frustrated.
01:13:46 <ihope> 0 nPr N is quite often 0.
01:15:24 <ImmIbIs> dividing a crate by another crate with 0 in it? Throw them both out of a twentieth-story window. Problem solved.
01:16:05 <ihope> Reminds me of the guy who went trick-or-treating dressed as the 14th century, for obvious reasons.
01:16:27 <ihope> (Though said guy was a fictional character.)
01:16:35 -!- ImmIbIs has changed nick to immibis.
01:17:20 <ihope> In the same vein, there was that non-fictional person who went trick-or-treating dressed as a bathroom.
01:17:48 <ihope> Why did she do that?
01:18:17 <ihope> Well, I think she and her mother were once out shopping for toilet seats, and her mother said she should wear one.
01:18:35 <ihope> Because it would be funny?
01:20:31 <oklopol> you know what's funny? nothing.
01:25:09 <kwertii> Murder is no laughing matter. Unless it's committed by a clown.
02:53:19 <immibis> is there anything useful I could do with multi-digit numbers, that isn't trivial to write but not complicated either?
02:53:25 <immibis> apart from calculating a digital root.
02:56:34 <immibis> that would be trivial now i've added multi-digit support, except there is NO way to seperate two inputs.
02:56:51 <ihope> Sounds un-Turing-complete.
02:57:03 <immibis> it's not intended to be turing-complete
02:57:11 <immibis> it's intended to be interesting to write programs in.
02:57:34 <immibis> maybe i could do the fibonacci sequence '... using either recursion or iteration."
02:57:47 <immibis> maybe i could do the fibonacci sequence except the esolangs page says "... using either recursion or iteration.".
03:00:57 <immibis> there is no way to seperate two inputs because you can only input numbers. you can, however, add the input to a constant.
03:03:01 <ihope> You couldn't input a digit of one, a digit of the other, ad nauseam?
03:03:29 <immibis> it might...work except there is no end of input either.
03:03:38 <immibis> it's only for windows, and only for console input.
03:03:49 <immibis> as in, don't redirect it or it won't work.
03:08:24 <ihope> What is it, anyway?
03:09:09 <immibis> because i couldn't find any documentation for RUBE, or an interpreter (well, i probably could have, but I didn't actually look for either of them) so i made my own language
03:09:23 <immibis> inspired by RUBICON, a game inspired by RUBE, a language inspired by Rube Goldberg.
03:10:33 <immibis> oh and the program automatically ends when there is no data, and there are no inputs.
03:12:57 <ihope> Does your language have a wiki page?
03:13:11 <immibis> because i created it yesterday.
03:13:28 <immibis> the language not the wiki page
03:13:28 <ihope> I bet I can create a page for my language before you can create one for yours! :-P
03:14:39 <ihope> I'll call it Misnomer.
03:15:15 <ihope> "Its name is a misnomer in that it is not."
04:17:58 -!- ihope has quit ("http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.08.09").
04:36:32 -!- kwertii has quit (Client Quit).
04:41:48 * immibis waits patiently for someone to ask him what he's waiting for
04:42:36 * immibis was waiting patiently for someone to ask him what he was waiting for.
04:42:36 <immibis> 12:47:25 * ihope waits patiently
04:42:36 <immibis> 12:48:55 * ihope waits patiently for someone to ask what he's waiting for
04:42:45 <immibis> 12:49:54 * RodgerTheGreat considers asking ihope what he's waiting for.
04:42:55 * immibis wonders why he read a year-old irc log
04:43:33 <RodgerTheGreat> turns out I've become steadily less interesting over the year
04:43:34 * immibis is waiting for something to happen
04:44:08 * immibis tells RodgerTheGreat what he's actually waiting for - for something to happen.
04:44:49 <immibis> i saw you talking about this experiment last night
04:44:58 <immibis> so i'm not going to say what you expect the outcome to be...
04:45:36 <immibis> cut it up and put it in a blender.
04:46:23 <RodgerTheGreat> the test is very, very pointless in this case because not only do you lack an apple in your hand but you're also aware of the experiment enough to let it skew your results
04:50:07 * immibis has somehow managed to create a ROCB factorial calculator.
04:51:04 <immibis> 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144 233 377 610 987 1597 2584 4181 6765 10946 17711 28657 46368 9489 55857 65346 55667 55477 45608 35549 15621 51170 1255 52425 53680 40569 28713 3746 32459 36205 3128 39333 42461 16258 58719 9441 2624 12065 14689 26754 41443 2661 44104 46765 25333 6562 31895 38457 4816 43273 48089 25826 8379 34205 42584 11253 53837 65090 53391 52945 40800 28209 3473 31682 35155 1301 36456 37757 8677 46434 55111 36009 25584
04:51:30 <immibis> a bit of a random name, i admit.
04:53:37 <immibis> there are no rails in the language. Otherwise it might be called RubE On Rails.
04:55:29 <RodgerTheGreat> I was referencing the tremendously irritating speech mannerisms of the narrator for the screencasts
04:55:30 <immibis> ok, i know nothing about ruby on rails apart from the name - i don't even know what it is.
04:56:00 <RodgerTheGreat> immibis: it is pure, grade-A, reverse-osmosis purified shit.
04:56:50 <RodgerTheGreat> essentially it's PHP and MySQL for impatient people and/or morons built on the ugliest mainstream language on the planet
04:57:21 <RodgerTheGreat> I take it as proof of the theory that bad ideas can breed to create new, more powerfully bad ideas.
04:57:48 <RodgerTheGreat> there's less evidence to support it working for good ideas
05:15:41 <immibis> does anyone run windows and want a ROCB interpreter?
05:33:19 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
05:33:34 <immibis> 95% of people with computers do.
05:33:54 -!- GregorR_ has joined.
05:34:02 -!- GregorR_ has changed nick to GregorR.
05:43:43 -!- maslem has joined.
05:44:03 -!- immibis has changed nick to everybody.
05:44:09 -!- everybody has changed nick to immibis.
06:00:24 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
06:15:22 -!- GregorR has joined.
06:17:57 -!- maslem has quit ("Leaving").
06:43:10 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
06:46:36 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Client Quit).
06:51:01 * pikhq want sleep, but me no want sleep
06:51:37 <pikhq> immibis: You don't *run* Windows, you fight it.
06:54:44 * immibis thinks pikhq should avoid talking about others in the first person.
07:37:25 <bsmntbombdood> use wikimedia projects before asking stupid questions
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:08:45 <immibis> am i permitted to make a wiki page for my language?
08:37:27 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
09:07:10 <g4lt-sb100> turns out that you can't actually make wiki articles about the things that you are most familiar with, as hey don't like first person articles
09:07:47 <immibis> [14:12] <ihope> I bet I can create a page for my language before you can create one for yours!
09:08:06 <immibis> then why did ihope say that?
09:09:30 <g4lt-sb100> ask ihope why, but presumably it's because rules don't mean much to ihope
09:15:17 -!- g4lt-sb100 has changed nick to g4lt-mordant.
09:16:16 -!- oerjan has joined.
09:25:41 <oerjan> _or_ it could be because ihope means the esolangs wiki, not wikipedia.
09:27:21 <immibis> *i* meant the esolangs wiki too.
09:28:00 <oerjan> in which case you are welcome to make a page on your language.
09:29:59 <immibis> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ruby_On_Conveyor_Belts
09:30:20 <immibis> that should be "RubE on conveyor belts". How do I change an article's name?
09:32:06 <immibis> http://esolangs.org/wiki/RubE_On_Conveyor_Belts
09:48:25 <immibis> to whoever cares: should it be under the category "brainfuck derivatives" if you only use brainfuck for part of the program, and that part is optional?
10:03:36 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined.
10:14:43 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC. Pull the pi).
10:15:01 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
12:00:20 -!- oerjan has quit ("Lurch, er, lunch").
12:04:01 -!- bebers has joined.
12:04:43 <bebers> http://tubeimage.com/viewer.php?file=x7o3ydsiwmvc6pnvqyd3.jpg
13:06:43 -!- jix has joined.
13:14:28 -!- bebers has left (?).
15:04:29 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
15:15:24 -!- bsmntbom1dood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
15:39:24 -!- fizzie has quit ("...").
17:10:38 -!- g4lt-sb100 has joined.
17:15:27 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined.
17:26:07 -!- g4lt-mordant has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:26:16 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:18:19 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
18:19:34 <oklopol> oerjan: be highlighted through the magic of logs.
18:21:26 -!- bsmntbom1dood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
18:37:34 -!- ihope has joined.
18:52:09 -!- pina has joined.
18:53:18 <pina> anyone been following up with obfuscated C contests?
18:54:04 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't think my C-fu is strong enough to really create something horrifying like those guys do
18:58:15 <RodgerTheGreat> at least it's... uh... fairly well drawn, from a purely artistic point of view
19:07:30 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:07:44 <pina> I've never really used C.. patches to the kernel and all, but I've never written anything from the ground up.. the code in that contest always stretches the neurons..
19:08:43 <RodgerTheGreat> most of the time, it's a program that does something really neat (with a non-obvious algorithm), clearly optimized quite a bit to make it small, and THEN heavily obfuscated
19:10:03 <RodgerTheGreat> Well, it'd *have* to be an interpreter or a compiler for something
19:11:00 <RodgerTheGreat> Oooh... we could try to fit interpreters for as many languages as possible into the 4k limit- it'd be like the opposite of a polyglot!
19:13:38 <RodgerTheGreat> throw in a bunch of bf extensions that don't overlap instructions
19:13:57 <RodgerTheGreat> like Doublefuck and the multithreaded version, for example
19:15:06 <bsmntbombdood> it might be better if it was a compiler, compiling to obfusicated C
19:16:26 <oerjan> unfortunately don't most compilers to C make things obfuscated anyway? I've heard scary things about ghc...
19:16:45 -!- Tritonio has joined.
19:34:29 <RodgerTheGreat> are you trying to get it to make you a sandwich or something?
19:35:20 <bsmntbombdood> no, i just want it to take a picture every 3 seconds, without holding down the shutter
19:35:29 -!- pina has left (?).
19:39:45 <RodgerTheGreat> it'll get better when someone finally decides to make an embedded OS that runs on multiple devices like that
19:47:55 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
20:03:34 -!- CakeProphet_ has joined.
20:06:34 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:18:41 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:13:54 <RodgerTheGreat> bsmntbombdood: so do we know wether or not "team" entries to the IOCC are permitted?
21:16:37 -!- Tritonio_ has joined.
21:18:34 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:57:28 -!- ihope_ has joined.
22:15:03 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:11:25 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined.
23:22:45 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:24:41 -!- kwertii has joined.
23:27:05 -!- bsmntbom1dood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
23:42:09 <oklopol> would the actual program be an interpreter, or would interpreters just be the main method of obfuscation?
23:47:43 -!- immibis has joined.
23:48:07 <pikhq> I want an interprecompiler.
23:48:44 <immibis> what's an interprecompiler?
23:48:53 <pikhq> It compiles and interprets.
23:49:37 <pikhq> Perhaps compile to some sort of bytecode, and allow it to either output a C file with an interpreter function and the bytecode, or just interpret the bytecode?
23:49:50 <pikhq> Perhaps a bit harder to do in 4k. . .
23:50:45 <pikhq> If we didn't have to worry about code size, we could write the compilation routines in bytecode.
23:52:34 -!- immibis has left (?).
23:52:41 -!- immibis has joined.
23:53:45 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: is its external behaviour that of an interpreter's?
23:54:18 <oklopol> or does it do interpreter stuff internally as a means of obfuscation
23:54:51 <oklopol> heh, i didn't read the 5 lines of logs yet ;)
23:56:35 <oklopol> immibis: a word-play for something that is both an INTERPREter and a COMPILER
23:56:49 <oklopol> (yes, i now reached row 4)
23:59:25 <RodgerTheGreat> the program should be a compiler that, when run through itself, generates a C file that can be compiled into something interesting
00:00:11 <RodgerTheGreat> I also suggest that "compilerpreter" > "interprecompiler"
00:03:16 <immibis> so it's not an early compiler that inter-connects with something else?
00:04:53 <oerjan> icnotmepriplreerter, hope this helps
00:24:34 -!- edwardk has joined.
00:38:45 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
00:44:52 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
00:45:03 -!- jix has joined.
01:29:05 -!- Tritonio_ has quit ("Bye...").
01:33:59 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:36:24 -!- CakeProphet_ has changed nick to CakeProphet.
01:38:14 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
01:49:04 -!- SEO_DUDE has joined.
02:16:12 -!- edwardk has left (?).
02:43:10 -!- kwertii has quit (Client Quit).
03:40:13 <RodgerTheGreat> or maybe draw elaborate paisley designs and patterns of dots on it with a permanent marker
03:48:03 <ihope_> You don't have access to professional mask-making equipment and a professional mask-maker, do you?
03:49:14 <RodgerTheGreat> dude, you should know now there's professional equipment for *anything*
03:59:40 <ihope_> Yup, professional mask-making equipment.
04:00:00 <ihope_> You can't make a professional mask out of paper and scissors.
04:02:10 -!- immibis_ has joined.
04:10:32 * immibis_ wonders what bsmntbombdood just said 'heh' to
04:15:42 -!- immibis_ has quit ("BitchX-1.1-final -- just do it.").
04:20:10 -!- ihope_ has quit (Connection timed out).
04:22:36 <RodgerTheGreat> you could probably use cardboard and a fencing mask to make yourself look like cobra commander if you added a snappy uniform
04:23:27 <RodgerTheGreat> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Cobra_commander.jpg
04:25:09 <bsmntbombdood> i was thinking about making some shorts out of brown paper bags + duck tape
04:26:41 <RodgerTheGreat> a different outfit from the wiki article: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/76/TF-G2_OldSnake.jpg
04:27:14 <RodgerTheGreat> you can make many kinds of clothing out of cardboard or paper, but pants should not be self-fabricated
04:27:45 <RodgerTheGreat> there are many potential pitfalls of making your own pants without the requisite skills
04:33:25 <bsmntbombdood> i'd be sure to wear something at least semi-modest underneath
04:42:06 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
06:02:59 -!- SEO_DUDE38 has joined.
06:11:19 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:08:56 <oklopol> i've always wanted to make my own clothes
08:09:10 <oklopol> preferable something like a poncho
08:12:20 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
08:52:03 <lament> i would make clothes, but i don't want to look like a bum.
08:57:38 <oklopol> i'm getting more and more bohemic by the day, last night i forgot to put shoes on when i went to the shop in the night
08:57:47 <oklopol> i think that's a good thing.
08:58:25 <lament> does your girlfriend think it's a good thing?
08:59:08 <oklopol> i try to act normal with her
09:04:02 <oklopol> whut, i read you were immibis xD
09:04:20 <oklopol> well, the nicks are almost identical.
09:05:55 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
09:06:01 <oklopol> also bsmntbombdood and RodgerTheGreat, i don't even know what the difference between the nicks is, really, just try to guess from what they say
09:06:20 <oklopol> or perhaps it's the fact i'm tired as hell and my eyes won't open
09:29:53 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
10:32:15 -!- oerjan has joined.
10:54:49 -!- jix has joined.
10:55:15 -!- jix has quit (Remote closed the connection).
10:55:42 -!- jix has joined.
10:58:07 -!- Tritonio has joined.
11:00:38 <oerjan> <oklopol> well, the nicks are almost identical.
11:01:34 <oerjan> someone is in need of an eye test?
11:04:35 <oklopol> read all cyanide and happiness's, what to do know...
11:05:06 <oerjan> i stopped reading that - too much cyanide and too little happiness
11:05:36 <oerjan> it got too sick for me, believe it or not
11:06:11 <oerjan> despite the fact i read all the archives last autumn
11:06:34 <oklopol> i read all of them this morning
11:07:52 * oerjan is not sure what *the* test is.
11:08:32 <oklopol> well, my point was you prolly don't know what test we use, but i then realized you actually probably do.
11:09:46 <oerjan> Extended European Education Experience Emulator Evidence Extractor?
11:10:55 <oklopol> almost, but rotate those E's a little.
11:12:18 <oerjan> i just made that up on the assumption it was some EU thing
11:13:06 <oerjan> (which might very well be used in Norway too, but not when i was in school)
11:17:34 <oklopol> you stay at about 5 meters from it
11:17:42 <oklopol> now the board is filled with e's
11:17:52 <oklopol> and you're supposed to tell at which angle they're in
11:18:20 <oklopol> (i seem to be quick @ ascii rotation :|)
11:19:52 <oerjan> wait a minute, are you saying you actually _are_ talking about a vision test? :D
11:20:15 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined.
11:23:11 <oerjan> i thought you had aced an important test at school or something
11:23:24 <oerjan> although having good vision is, of course, important
11:23:59 <oklopol> well my screen is fairly close to my eyes, and i can always get closer if necessary ;)
11:24:18 <oklopol> it was for the army, which i think i'll pass anyway, so...
11:24:22 <oerjan> until one day your nose gets in the way
11:24:50 <oklopol> i have a friend with a clear vision of 30 centimeters
11:25:16 <oklopol> recognizes people by the color of clothes they wear
11:25:51 * oerjan imagines you switching clothes just to confuse him
11:26:45 <oklopol> 1. i can't wear anything but black 2. he's very good at disguising the fact he doesn't recognize someone
11:27:34 <oklopol> i remember being with him at... this place, well anyway, someone comes, asks him about his army time, they talk about 5 min, and really seem to know each other pretty well
11:27:42 <oklopol> so after the guy leaves, i ask who he was
11:27:48 -!- ihope_ has joined.
11:28:01 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to ihope.
11:30:28 <oerjan> pattern matching, generally
11:30:39 <oerjan> Wong Chan-Nel strikes again
11:31:15 <oklopol> although that might apply to the seeing problem too.
11:31:34 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
11:32:31 <oklopol> challenge: say everything sing /amsg and make 100% sense in every channel.
11:35:13 <oerjan> 12:33 No help for amsg
11:35:43 <oerjan> wisely left out of irssi, i take
11:40:12 <oklopol> prolly, although you can still do raw messages, and i recall it's part of the rfc :|
12:00:22 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
12:01:12 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
12:01:25 -!- Tritonio has joined.
12:01:26 -!- puzzlet has joined.
12:34:58 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
12:35:45 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
12:46:49 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
12:46:59 -!- jix has joined.
13:32:42 -!- oerjan has quit ("Dinner").
13:44:40 -!- Figs has joined.
13:45:05 <Figs> are you guys familiar with the Voynich manuscript?
13:45:59 <Figs> http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=22
13:46:04 <Figs> it's pretty damned interesting :P
14:53:32 <oklopol> Figs: rate my etydes http://vjn.fi/oklopol/music/etydes/
14:54:01 <Figs> what is a gp4?
14:54:19 * Figs doesn't have Guitar Pro
14:54:36 <Figs> do you have midis?
14:56:52 <oklopol> had to convert each separately
14:57:01 <Figs> no batch magic?
14:57:08 <oklopol> hmm... D004 shouldn't be there
14:59:46 <oklopol> the Axxx ones aren't all that entertaining at least ;)
15:00:07 <Figs> my headphones are screwing up
15:00:08 <oklopol> i'm teaching a friend to play the piano over messenger...
15:00:14 <Figs> battery is dead
15:01:13 <oklopol> even converted to mids that is a bit off-beat, guitar pro does that for some reason
15:02:04 <oklopol> i haven't learned any of the D ones, except 4 of course
15:02:41 <oklopol> there's 3 categories, A, B and D
15:02:55 <Figs> no, I mean why 4 :P
15:03:18 <Figs> it doesn't sound trivial :P
15:03:38 <oklopol> heh, well it is, because it's so short: )
15:04:01 <oklopol> it won't be once i complete it
15:04:10 <Figs> why isn't there a C?
15:04:23 <oklopol> because i haven't made anything that i'd categorize as it
15:04:47 <oklopol> C is a bit harder than B, but it's main idea is for the etydes to be a bit longer
15:05:18 <oklopol> i could just call them songs, though, etyde has a bad sound to it..
15:05:47 <oklopol> etydes are inferior to songs
15:06:38 <oklopol> i was thinking about making a book called 1001 etydes, possibly generating them all ;)
15:06:40 <Figs> I thought the term was Etude?
15:06:49 <Figs> or is etyde different?
15:07:18 <oklopol> etyde is nothing, most likely
15:07:43 <oklopol> i derived etyde from finnish, is my reason
15:11:27 <Figs> I don't know how to evaluate etudes.
15:12:01 <oklopol> etudes are pieces made for training techniques.
15:12:05 <Figs> "[06:52:59] oklopol: Figs: rate my etydes "
15:12:51 <Figs> I don't think I could play most of these :)
15:13:09 <Figs> I could probably do the A things
15:13:28 <oklopol> i can do the B ones at 2x speed, i think
15:13:29 <Figs> maybe some of the B
15:13:45 <Figs> B001 doesn't sound hard
15:14:28 <Figs> I don't know about B002 though
15:14:32 <oklopol> also, i can do a nice ....partial chord (?) in the end with 1.5x the 3x speed
15:14:51 <Figs> "partial chord (?)"?
15:15:20 <oklopol> i'll add mp3's of me playing those once i get something to record with...
15:16:10 <oklopol> so you have a chord, right
15:16:20 <oklopol> so you play the notes in a sequence
15:16:44 <oklopol> like a1 c1 e1 a2 c2 e2 a3 e2 c2 a2 e1 c1 a1
15:17:07 <Figs> like an arpeggio?
15:17:25 <oklopol> i can do that arpeggio in about a second
15:18:43 <oklopol> i think i'm about 2x faster than you in bragging
15:18:57 <oklopol> now time to eat something, i guess ->
15:19:12 <Figs> I don't know what you mean by 2x faster than me in bragging
15:19:47 <oklopol> that i like to brag, it seems
15:20:08 * Figs uh, brags about procrastinating...
15:20:17 <Figs> I've been up all night two nights in a row now!
15:20:24 <Figs> putting off working...
15:20:35 <Figs> isn't that awful? :P
15:21:54 <Figs> oklopol puts off eating!
15:22:04 <Figs> *snatches breakfast....*
15:25:53 -!- puzzlet has joined.
15:37:58 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
15:43:18 -!- joxy has joined.
16:10:10 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
16:21:04 -!- bsmntbom1dood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:10:54 -!- pikhq has joined.
17:19:40 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
17:20:01 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:20:46 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
17:37:28 -!- pinskian has joined.
17:37:38 <pinskian> well ror rather good with C /bignums
17:41:50 <pikhq> Fairly good from C, excellent from C++.
17:41:59 <pinskian> there's a BN_bntompi() function supposed to do the conversion (bignum -> mpi)
17:42:07 <pinskian> but it expects a buffer, so there must be a way to know the size of that buffer either by a max constant or by arithmetics based on bignum size
17:42:28 <pinskian> pikhq: oh languages, well tried dylan? fairly fairly better than c and far ahead of c++
17:42:33 <pikhq> The mpi type is just a struct, IIRC.
17:42:38 <pikhq> I've heard of D. . .
17:42:42 <pikhq> Gregor swears by it.
17:42:56 <pinskian> ok so any ideas on what i should do here
17:42:56 <pikhq> (IIRC, he wrote a fair chunk of GDC. . .)
17:43:08 <pinskian> "BN_bn2mpi() stores the representation of a at to, where to must be large enough to hold the result. The size can be determined by calling BN_bn2mpi(a, NULL )."
17:43:16 <pinskian> so basically call it once with NULL as the 2nd param and it should return size?
17:45:09 <pinskian> i eman the size of the buffer should be known so..
17:45:27 <pinskian> or the size of the number is, in theory, completely arbitrary, not constant?
17:46:31 <pikhq> If you will excuse me, I'm going to kill every person who has a library function which just says "buffer must be correct size", without either asking *for* the right size *or* just saying "just pass a pointer to NULL, and we'll allocate it". -_-'
17:46:51 <pikhq> I honestly don't know how you're supposed to get the right size out of that.
17:47:38 * pinskian slaps tokigun around a bit with a large trout
17:47:46 <pinskian> int len = BN_bn2mpi( urbignum, NULL );
17:47:47 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit.
17:47:57 <pinskian> BN_bn2mpi( urbignum, (unsigned char*)mpibin );
17:48:02 <pikhq> That's exceptionally annoying.
17:48:15 <pikhq> Be aware that "char mpibn[len];" will only work in GNU C.
17:48:52 <pikhq> *If* you want it to be portable, use "char *mpibn = alloca(len);".
17:49:04 <pikhq> Or use the joys of malloc. . .
17:52:02 <pinskian> erm im not sure you're following what im saying
17:53:05 <pikhq> alloca allocates memory, sort-of like malloc. *But*, when it can't, alloca will handle the error itself. . . When the function alloca is called from returns, the memory allocated is freed.
17:53:41 <pinskian> basically what is the BN_bntompi() function i should be using here
17:53:47 <pikhq> In some ways, it's like GNU C's variable-sized arrays, but alloca also works on BSD-based functions. . .
17:53:57 <pikhq> BSD-based systems, sorry.
17:54:26 <pinskian> if it works for BSD, its exactly whatim looking for
17:54:28 <pinskian> but im not sure where you're going with alloca and all..
17:54:34 <pinskian> just need to know of this function:D
17:55:40 <pikhq> I'm saying "replace 'char mpibn[len];' with 'char *mpibn = alloc(len);', so it works in more places."
17:56:06 <pikhq> Insofar as BN_bn2mpi goes, I dunno.
17:56:07 <pinskian> but over all whats the fcuntion needed for the conversion?
17:56:24 <pinskian> thats what im asking in so far azs BN_bn2mpi
17:57:07 <pinskian> pikhq: as for what you mentioned about replacement if i made a precompiler macro, solves the problem
17:58:56 <pikhq> What do you need to convert the BIGNUM *to*?
17:59:32 <pinskian> but like i said it expects a buffer
17:59:55 <pinskian> so we should know the size of it by whatever, using bignum size
18:03:00 <pinskian> im doing it in C strictly speaking
18:12:26 <pinskian> int len = BN_bn2mpi( urbignum, NULL );/* NULL instead of storage buffer causes function to just calculate buffer size requirements and return that value as an int */
18:12:33 <pinskian> char mpibn[len]; /* allocate the buffer */
18:12:46 <pinskian> BN_bn2mpi( urbignum, (unsigned char*)mpibin );/* calling the SAME function but this time we give it a valid ptr instead of NULL and it stores the result there */
18:13:04 <pinskian> makes sense then yeah? to get the buffer size
18:25:46 -!- Figs has left (?).
18:37:05 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined.
18:39:45 <pinskian> pikhq: http://www.nomorepasting.com/getpaste.php?pasteid=4475
18:39:59 <pinskian> basially mapping OpenSSL's RSA structure to something useable by nbpg
18:48:18 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:49:46 -!- pinskian has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:09:17 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:30:56 -!- frosty has joined.
19:32:42 -!- frosty has left (?).
19:46:04 -!- bsmntbom1dood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
19:49:13 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:59:55 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
20:07:37 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:10:14 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:42:43 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
21:22:31 -!- RedDak has joined.
22:06:39 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
22:12:49 -!- joxy has changed nick to molchuvka.
22:26:34 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:47:03 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:47:04 -!- puzzlet has joined.
23:00:23 <lament> you mean here in this channel?
23:05:25 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:25:25 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
23:25:25 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:50:51 -!- immibis has joined.
23:55:05 <immibis> could someone please tell me what is wrong with the sed command: s/^PRINT \([^ \$]+\$\)$/...../
23:55:26 <immibis> i want to match PRINT basicVariable$, for example