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00:11:58 <lament> SimonRC: technically speaking you still need to know what gules is
00:12:28 <lament> SimonRC: for example, imagine if there were thousands of files there
00:17:25 <lament> gate 3 lock 2 is NOT the basil puzzle, is it?
00:19:02 <lament> i assumed there would be more puzzles
00:19:33 <SimonRC> what is special about the basil puzzle?
00:20:13 <SimonRC> first question, has *anyone* here managed it?
00:20:24 <lament> pikhq is apparently the only person ever.
00:20:38 <SimonRC> next question, why a bloomin TIFF?
00:23:39 <lament> i suppose i don't know.
00:25:24 <lament> well, TIFF images tend to be huge :)
00:31:01 <SimonRC> have you read the wikipedia article on them?
00:31:28 <lament> i'm nowhere near solving the puzzle, i'm afraid.
00:31:43 <lament> but as an amateur photographer, i can tell you tiff images tend to be huge :)
00:32:29 <SimonRC> there is so *much* stuff that you can do with the TIFF format
00:32:37 <SimonRC> but maybe that isn;t significant at all...
00:42:04 <SimonRC> well, the image is compressed, internally, so I doubt there is any steganography
00:42:07 <SimonRC> well, the image is compressed, internally, so I doubt there is any steganography
00:42:33 <lament> no discussion in here please
00:44:42 <lament> (for what it's worth, JPEG watermarking is very common despite JPEG being compressed)
00:45:14 <lament> (again, speaking as an amateur photographer rather than some kind of programmer)
00:46:57 <lament> you just watermark after compression, not before
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00:58:45 <pikhq> Anyone else Basiling?
00:59:08 <SimonRC> pikhq: come to mock us? ;-)
00:59:21 <pikhq> Not really. It actually is maniacal.
00:59:38 <SimonRC> so it is not so simple that I will I feel like an idiot for not trying some certan thing?
00:59:54 <pikhq> No, once you're done, that's *exactly* how you'll feel. :p
01:02:48 <SimonRC> how long did you spend having no clue, comparedt to the amount of time spent working in the right direction?
01:08:48 <SimonRC> or would that be too much of a clue?
01:09:55 <pikhq> SimonRC: I spent all of it clueless until I discovered the answer.
01:10:37 <pikhq> No, because you still have to find it.
01:11:07 <SimonRC> it it tells me not to look at some things
01:16:18 * SimonRC wonders if the nearly-identical image is of any significance at all
01:18:54 <SimonRC> Problem is, I can't think of much to do with it other than treat it as an image
01:19:28 <SimonRC> http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.diamondorganics.com/images/herbs_basil300.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.diamondorganics.com/&h=300&w=300&sz=16&hl=en&start=520&um=1&tbnid=DsOXfgK_b1L3UM:&tbnh=116&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3DBasil%26start%3D520%26imgsz%3Dsmall%257Cmedium%257Clarge%257Cxlarge%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN
01:29:45 <lament> i'm beginning to strongly suspect Basil is kinda lame
01:29:54 <lament> but of course i won't know for sure until i find the answer.
01:30:00 <SimonRC> you haven;t found the answer
01:30:14 <SimonRC> pikhq: Actaully, that is the sign of a very difficult puzzle. You spend far more time having no clue than you do having clue.
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01:39:56 <SimonRC> is it *aupposed* to be a broken image, BTW?
01:40:07 <SimonRC> It doesn;t want to display inline
01:40:27 <RodgerTheGreat> that's because your browser doesn't properly support TIFF
01:43:08 <lament> is that either you need to have/make some kind of tiff-fucking tool, which is lame
01:44:08 <lament> or you don't, but then that's an obvious false route and you still end up doing it, which is still lame :)
01:44:22 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: so, is the puzzle lame?
01:44:47 <RodgerTheGreat> as I've said before, it's one of my crowning achievements
01:44:59 <lament> suppose i have no knowledge of the tiff format and no tiff processing libraries
01:45:15 <lament> which is surprisingly not far from the truth
01:45:27 <pikhq> That's where I started.
01:46:06 <lament> now, if i have to learn the tiff format to proceed, then i give up in advance :)
01:46:34 <pikhq> You might, or you might not.
01:46:47 <pikhq> You can try, or you can try other means.
01:47:06 <SimonRC> lament: I assume you tried the thing that worked with several of the previous ones, and got the (AFAICT) disappointing result
01:47:44 <SimonRC> incedentally, the answer isn't "Fawlty"
01:49:36 <lament> well, if the answer has anything to do with the ****** ***** ** *** ****, i'm not interested in continuing :)
01:49:56 <SimonRC> those asterisks are not helping me
01:50:08 <SimonRC> those asterisks are not helping me to understand your setance
01:51:49 <lament> oh come on, only so many sentences fit that pattern :)
01:52:28 <RodgerTheGreat> just pull a Babbage and gather a collection of dictionaries containing various word lengths
01:53:46 <SimonRC> why is it called "gate 3?"
01:53:59 <pikhq> Because that's what Rodger likes calling it.
01:55:28 <SimonRC> adding ?M=69 to the end din;t work :-)
02:02:06 <SimonRC> Are you allowed to tell us if it has anything to do with the previous puzzles?
02:02:16 <SimonRC> I.e. do you need to have solved them first?
02:04:22 * pikhq watches brains a'splode
02:04:59 <RodgerTheGreat> this is such an awesome movie. Very thought provoking.
02:05:52 <ihope> Potter Harry of Dth Hlws?
02:05:59 <ihope> Probably doesn't stand for anything like that.
02:06:07 <SimonRC> ihope: looked at the puzzles?
02:06:09 <ihope> ****** ***** ** *** ****
02:06:27 <ihope> SimonRC: what puzzles?
02:07:03 <SimonRC> http://rodger.shadowarts.org/PHP/Example.php
02:07:10 <SimonRC> only pikhq has got past the basil one
02:07:33 <RodgerTheGreat> the challenges may be referred to collectively as "Rodger's Demon"
02:07:42 <ihope> SimonRC: that link leads me to a 403.
02:08:42 <SimonRC> the last one AFAICT is an exercise is explorin a completely-flat problem space
02:15:55 <SimonRC> from what pikhq said, there is no clue until you kit on the answer
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04:53:20 <pikhq> Rodger's Demon == evily good.
04:59:59 <RodgerTheGreat> just wait for the Abyss. It will be unlike any game you've played before, I promise.
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10:58:14 <SimonRC> have you been irritated by Rodger's puzzles yet?
11:02:13 -!- ehird` has joined.
11:10:12 <ehird`> if so - i've just woken up
11:10:38 <ehird`> have you got any leads?
12:57:55 <jix> SimonRC: huh?
13:06:05 <jix> the next line
13:06:17 <ehird`> jix, he was talking to me about Basil i think
13:06:31 <jix> ehird`: no you weren't here
13:06:37 <jix> 11:56:57 <SimonRC> have you been irritated by Rodger's puzzles yet?
13:07:24 <SimonRC> http://rodger.shadowarts.org/PHP/Example.php
13:07:35 <SimonRC> don't bother with them, the last one will wreck your life
13:07:42 <SimonRC> I am ignoring it currently
13:07:56 <jix> i get a forbidden
13:09:02 <jix> ehird`: you joined just after simonrc said have you irritated by.....
13:09:39 <ehird`> jix, anyway, the forbidden is the first puzzle
13:10:02 <jix> ah this is notpron like?
13:12:40 <ehird`> but less levels, and more binary data scavenging
13:12:46 <jix> great binarys!
13:12:59 <jix> like i probably need some different OS to run that
13:13:05 <SimonRC> please discuss this somewhere else.
13:17:56 <SimonRC> because I am getting nowhere on the last question
13:21:55 <SimonRC> My previous stratergy has always been to lose the URL to the puzzles and forget about them
14:22:42 <jix> i've got it!
14:50:43 <jix> pikhq: the last one
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15:00:32 <ehird`> he has nicely dispatched one hint, which has saved me from giving up
15:05:20 <pikhq> jix, don't give out too many hints.
15:05:46 <pikhq> IMO, it's much more worth it to let them solve it themselve.
15:05:59 <pikhq> . . . Wait. You spent *two hours* on all of Rodger's Demon?
15:07:05 <jix> for the first ones (the ones before the animations) ehird was throwing hints on me it would have taken longer without them
15:07:27 <pikhq> Still. . . Even with hints, the gulesfish is hard.
15:07:58 <ehird`> i found gulesfish pretty easy once i got "gules"
15:08:45 <pikhq> I had most of the puzzle solved before I realised where the input needed to go.
15:09:05 <ehird`> pikhq, he's only given out one hint
15:39:17 <SimonRC> I would never have gotten the one that has just a 2-character hint without Rodger helping me
15:39:49 <SimonRC> My puzzle-solving usually starts with a crappy solution then re-works the hell out of it
15:40:19 <SimonRC> because my problem-solving is programming
15:40:45 <pikhq> I'm usually fairly good at these sorts of puzzles.
15:43:27 <SimonRC> I keep dismissing the right answer
15:44:18 <SimonRC> e.g., In Gulesfish my unzipper was waving a massive hint in my face and I ignored it!
15:44:33 <pikhq> Mine ignored said massive hint.
15:44:54 <pikhq> Which actually wasn't the last bit of the puzzle I got. . .
15:45:05 <SimonRC> OTOH, my other unzipper often says that same thing when it is not relevent
15:45:06 <pikhq> I had the much-needed input, but not where it was supposed to go. XD
15:45:43 <SimonRC> I forgot that [] at the beginning of a BF program is not an ininite loop
15:47:21 <SimonRC> so, I looked, saw that the first two BF commands would be [ and ], then decided it is not a BF program
15:50:59 <ehird`> i had to tell him that it wasn't
15:51:07 <ehird`> he kept trying to use the elf instead, heh
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17:26:04 <asiekierka> It's a exact-1-year-anniversary of my first coming here!
17:26:08 <asiekierka> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.08.01
17:26:57 <asiekierka> I want to do a "esoteric programming language" programmable using IMAGES :D
17:28:30 <asiekierka> Oh wait. I will make an IRC esoteric language, with IRC-like syntax
17:28:59 <pikhq> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Braincopter
17:29:07 <pikhq> Internet Relay Programming
17:29:32 <asiekierka> I will also do a Brainf**k interperting bot... i guess it was done though...
17:29:53 <pikhq> This channel actually has two in it usually.
17:30:27 <ehird`> Please, print "IRP is stupid."
17:30:29 <asiekierka> pikhq, do you want to do something with me?
17:30:52 <asiekierka> and did you do any esoteric languages?
17:30:56 <ehird`> Please, print "Mwahaha" while true is true.
17:31:14 <pikhq> I've done Dimensifuck, PicoCPU, and PEBBLE.
17:31:18 <asiekierka> Please, print "I suck" while false is false.
17:31:41 <pikhq> INTERPRETER ERROR: Halting problem solved, don't want to do a program that doesn't halt.
17:32:26 <asiekierka> it's goal is to make as much fun from a PS3 while being an esoteric language
17:32:32 <pikhq> source ^stdcons.bfm;@ temp1;@ temp2;stringout "Hello, world!\n" : temp1 temp2
17:33:19 <pikhq> >-[<->+++++++]<-.>++++[<+++++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>----[<+++>----]<.------------.>--[<->---]<+.--------.+++.------.--------.>----[<+++>----]<.>------[<---->+]<+. is the result of that PEBBLE code.
17:34:00 <asiekierka> Please, if true is true print "I love #esoteric." else die
17:34:28 <asiekierka> link to PicoCPU, Dimensif**k and PEBBLE specs
17:34:29 <pikhq> Interpreter does not wish to do an infinite program.
17:34:55 <pikhq> Dunno where PicoCPU is hidden; http://esolangs.org/wiki/Dimensifuck, and http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pebble.php
17:35:08 <asiekierka> Please, if asiekiekra is on print "I love ehird`"
17:35:29 <asiekierka> Please, if asiekierka OR Haikz is on print "I love ehird`"
17:35:40 <ehird`> ERROR: NO, IRP ALLOWED IN TOPIC ERROR
17:35:44 <pikhq> Ne, mi malsxatas gxin.
17:36:12 <ehird`> ERROR: KILLING RAMPAGE STARTED, KILLING ALL IRP USERS
17:36:24 <ehird`> Please, everyone private message asiekierka with "WHEEEEEE"
17:36:31 <ehird`> INTERPRETER WRITTEN PROGRAM TRANSMISSION FINISHED.
17:36:34 <Haikz> I have a magical constant
17:36:44 <asiekierka> WARNING: PERSON YOU LOVE IS ABOUT TO DIE. [OK] [CANCEL] [WHO CARES]
17:36:51 <pikhq> Please execute "0+^+v".
17:36:58 <asiekierka> Please, send the warning to "everyone"
17:38:08 <ehird`> Please, let x be "Please, let x be %c%s%c and evaluate (x sprintf'd with 37, x, 37)" and evaluate (x sprintf'd with 37, x, 37)
17:38:24 <ehird`> hmmmm... better IRP quineL
17:38:28 <ehird`> Please, let x be "Please, let x be %c%s%c and evaluate (x sprintf'd with 37, x, 37)" and say (x sprintf'd with 37, x, 37)
17:38:42 <asiekierka> Please, let x be "Please, read source file "Please, let source file be #esoteric""
17:39:06 <ehird`> Please, say this exact line.
17:39:12 <asiekierka> Please, send command "Please, let x be "Please, read source file "Please, let source file be #esoteric""" to "Please, list anybody on #esoteric"
17:39:13 <pikhq> Please, all IRP interpreters, shut down.
17:39:29 <ehird`> asiekierka, everybody is an interpreter
17:39:35 <asiekierka> i'm a sentient AI + an interperter, ie. a human
17:40:29 <asiekierka> Please, say "No." everytime somebody confirms something.
17:41:11 <asiekierka> Please, give me a link to "Please, give me a link to "Please, give me a link to name "Please, "What is IRP?""""
17:42:35 <asiekierka> ERROR: No "please" at start of line "bacon"
17:43:19 <ehird`> bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon ba
17:43:20 <ehird`> con bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon baco
17:43:20 <ehird`> n bacon bacon bacon bacon bacon
17:43:25 <asiekierka> ERROR: No bacon. Download bacon yourself from www.yaai.prv.pl
17:43:25 <ehird`> that was a bit too long
17:43:28 <asiekierka> ERROR: No bacon. Download bacon yourself from www.yaai.prv.pl
17:43:31 <asiekierka> ERROR: No bacon. Download bacon yourself from www.yaai.prv.pl
17:43:31 <asiekierka> ERROR: No bacon. Download bacon yourself from www.yaai.prv.pl
17:43:31 <asiekierka> ERROR: No bacon. Download bacon yourself from www.yaai.prv.pl
17:43:45 <asiekierka> ERROR: No bacon. Download bacon yourself from www.yaai.prv.pl. ERROR: No bacon. Download bacon yourself from www.yaai.prv.pl. ERROR: No bacon. Download bacon yourself from www.yaai.prv.pl. ERROR: No bacon. Download bacon yourself from www.yaai.prv.pl. ERROR: No bacon. Download bacon yourself from www.yaai.prv.pl. ERROR: No bacon. Download bacon yourself from www.yaai.prv.pl. ERROR: No bacon. Download bacon yourself from www.yaai.prv.pl. ERRO
17:43:48 <asiekierka> ERROR: No bacon. Download bacon yourself from www.yaai.prv.pl. ERROR: No bacon. Download bacon yourself from www.yaai.prv.pl. ERROR: No bacon. Download bacon yourself from www.yaai.prv.pl. ERROR: No bacon. Download bacon yourself from www.yaai.prv.pl. ERROR: No bacon. Download bacon yourself from www.yaai.prv.pl.
17:43:53 <Haikz> I don't like bacon.
17:43:56 <ehird`> ERROR: bacon was in response to Please, bacon. and had no please so interpreting as command is ERROR, asiekierka interpreter is BUGGY
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17:45:36 <asiekierka> except you replace "Please," with "Shut up and"
17:46:43 <asiekierka> WARNING: IRP#ascorp is not compatible with IRP#esoteric. To use IRP#ascorp join #ascorp.
17:47:29 <asiekierka> Please rm -rf anybody that tries to rm -rf me.
17:48:30 <asiekierka> Please also press enter when you type /clear
17:48:37 <asiekierka> Please then type /part and press enter.
17:49:36 <asiekierka> ERROR: UPDATE FOUND. UPDATE DOSENT ALLOW TO TYPE /PART. SORRY FOR ANY PROBLEMS.
17:49:45 -!- asiekierka has left (?).
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17:51:42 <asiekierka> Please join #ascorp and do not type quotation marks for 5 minutes.
17:52:14 <asiekierka> Please invent a time machine.just kidding lol
17:53:09 <asiekierka> I don't remember anything except i turned on IRP01.exe some minutes ago...
17:56:35 <asiekierka> No, irp allowed. So IRP IS allowed :DDD
17:57:33 <pikhq> Sed IRP en Angla lingvo malbonas.
17:57:57 <pikhq> But IRP in English is bad.
17:57:59 <asiekierka> Please wait for a fix of the latest command.
17:58:06 <asiekierka> Please translate "Sed IRP en Angla lingvo malbonas", pikhq.
17:58:28 <asiekierka> Please remember that I only know Polish and English,
17:58:31 <pikhq> Ne. Mi sxatas lan internacian lingvon!
17:58:50 <asiekierka> and please translate the stuff or i'll seriously quit!
17:59:16 <pikhq> No. I like the international language.
18:01:58 -!- ihope has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | UNRELATED WEBSITE: http://purple.com -- NO: IRP ALLOWED.
18:02:18 <asiekierka> IRP is still allowed! cool! / Dalej mozna uzywac IRP! Super!
18:02:49 -!- ehird` has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | UNRELATED WEBSITE: http://purple.com | IRP MEANS YOUR FIERY DEATH.
18:03:14 <pikhq> asiekierka: Ne. Esperanto bonas.
18:03:17 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | UNRELATED WEBSITE: http://purple.com | NO IRP RULE WAS JUST BALEETED!.
18:03:35 -!- ihope has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | UNRELATED WEBSITE: http://purple.com | RULES: 1. IRP.
18:03:54 <pikhq> Also, baleeting is a Homestar-ism, not actual deletion.
18:03:58 <ihope> Perhaps I should have said "IRP BEING ALLOWED".
18:04:27 <ihope> Then again, the topic currently contains no verbs.
18:04:28 <asiekierka> Please remember you said "1. IRP.", not "1. NO IRP", so it seems we MUST use IRP.
18:04:45 -!- ehird` has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | UNRELATED WEBSITE: http://purple.com | STOP THE GODDAMN IRP.
18:04:57 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | UNRELATED WEBSITE: http://purple.com | RULES: 1. shut up. 2. talk only in IRP..
18:05:19 <ihope> RULES: 1. Break at least one rule. 2. IRP must be used at some time.
18:05:45 <asiekierka> Okay. I will break rule #1 if you please so much.
18:05:54 <ehird`> asiekierka, but then you break the break at least one rule rule
18:06:01 <ehird`> since by breaking it you break it by breaking it
18:06:14 <ihope> You can't be following the rules, because that'd be breaking rule 1, so you must break a rule, so you must follow rule 1, so you must break rule 2.
18:06:28 <ihope> No, you just follow rule 1 but not rule 2.
18:07:00 <asiekierka> RULES: 1. Break at least one rule. 2. IRP must be used at some time. 3. Shut up.
18:07:28 <asiekierka> But i can't select #3 because if i select it, i don't shut up so i must shut up.
18:07:47 <ihope> I never said you had to follow all the rules.
18:08:15 <asiekierka> RULES: 1. Break at least one rule. 2. IRP must be used at some time. 3. Shut up. 4. Don't break rule #2.
18:08:24 <asiekierka> If i break rule #2, I break rule #4... it is allowed.
18:08:42 <ihope> Sure, you can break both 2 and 4.
18:08:53 <ihope> You can break all of them except 1, if you want to.
18:09:03 <ihope> But you must follow 1.
18:09:15 <asiekierka> RULES: 1. Break at least one rule. 2. IRP must be used at some time. 3. Shut up. 4. Don't break rule #2. 5. You must follow rule #1 and any other rule.
18:09:25 <asiekierka> RULES: 1. Break at least one rule. 2. IRP must be used at some time. 3. Shut up. 4. Don't break rule #2. 5. You must follow rule #1, this and any other rule.
18:09:30 <ihope> "Any other rule" meaning "some other rule"?
18:09:56 <ihope> One of the remaining rules...
18:10:15 <ihope> ehird`: what are we supposed to be stopping now?
18:11:41 <asiekierka> Please follow the new RULES: 1. Break at least one rule. 2. IRP must be used at some time. 3. Shut up. 4. Don't break rule #2. 5. You must follow rule #1, this and any other rule. 6. Don't break rule #3. 7. Always use IRP.
18:13:39 <ehird`> i am going to break rule 4
18:13:54 <ehird`> and 2 (if it isn't to be used some time, it isn't used all time)
18:14:53 <asiekierka> And you can have only #1, #5, and any other left.
18:15:16 <asiekierka> If you break #7, you have #6 and #3 left.
18:16:25 <asiekierka> #2 and #4 are broke. But #7 isn't. You pleased for an exception in your words so you have it.
18:18:11 <ehird`> breaking rule 2 voids #7
18:18:24 <ehird`> and the other rules don't forbid breaking 2
18:18:40 <ehird`> i can break one or more rule
18:18:44 <ehird`> i break 4, allowing me to break 2
18:18:59 <ehird`> i am following 1, 5 and 6
18:19:14 <ehird`> so, by voiding 4 and 2 i do not have to involve myself in any irp
18:19:38 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | UNRELATED WEBSITE: http://purple.com | RULES: 1. Follow rule #2. 2. Follow rule #3 and #5. 3. Break #4. 4. Don't use IRP. 5. Use IRP..
18:22:41 <asiekierka> Ok, please tell me how to break rule #5. If there is a way... i doubt there is one.
18:24:00 <asiekierka> Please say "Your rules rock. We must use IRP. Remember this."
18:25:40 <asiekierka> Well, i said "Use IRP." But i didn't say "Always." So we can use it when we want. But we must use IRP. Not always though.
18:28:12 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | UNRELATED WEBSITE: http://purple.com | RULES: 1. Follow rule #2. 2. Follow rule #3 and #5. 3. Break #4 and follow #6. 4. Don't use IRP. 5. Use IRP. 6. Always follow #5. Always. Not just sometimes..
18:30:10 <asiekierka> Please use IRP, then i'll stop as you please.
18:31:25 <asiekierka> O.K.. Aber Sie sagten es nicht in deutschem :D. Sagen Sie es bitte auf Deutsch.
18:34:07 <asiekierka> So? Sprechen Sie bitte auf Deutsch und geben Sie mir deutsche IRP Befehle.
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18:49:28 -!- lament has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric.
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19:13:20 * pikhq has a demented idea for Rodger's Demon
19:14:32 <pikhq> I'm not telling, it might be used. :p
19:15:13 <pikhq> Hmm. Maybe I should experiment with doing my own puzzle.
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19:26:30 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | WHERE ARE THE RULES? 1. No rules..
19:27:06 <asiekierka> I am waiting for AI to be better so i can make a IRP interperter...
19:28:10 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | WHERE ARE THE RULES? 1. No rules. 2. You must break at least one rule..
19:29:53 <lament> Since there's no rules, rule 2 doesn't count.
19:30:14 <asiekierka> But if you break #1, rule #1 dosen't count, but rule 2 also breaks
19:31:44 <ihope> Does "no rules" mean "rules are prohibited"?
19:31:59 <lament> ihope: i would assume it means "rules can be disregarded"
19:32:08 <GregorR> If you break rule #1, you are fulfilling rule #2, and therefore following the rules. It's trivial, but it's not a paradox.
19:32:47 <ihope> 1. Break at least one rule. 2. Break this rule.
19:33:04 <lament> GregorR: if you fulfill rule #1, then you disregard both rules and there's still no paradox.
19:33:15 <ihope> 1. Break this rule.
19:33:18 <GregorR> lament: True. So really, there's no paradox at all :P
19:34:06 <GregorR> Prove the following statement: This statement is true.
19:34:30 <ehird`> GregorR, that statement states it is true, and there is nothing else it specifies, therefore it is true.
19:34:42 <ehird`> really, it's just like saying nothing
19:34:44 <pikhq> First, we assume that statement is provable.
19:34:53 <ihope> GregorR is the worst mathematician in here.
19:35:09 <ihope> Proof: he can't prove "GregorR cannot prove this sentence true." Everybody else can.
19:35:18 <pikhq> If it is true, then it must be true.
19:35:28 <ehird`> ihope, no, you're the worst - you can't prove "ihope cannot prove this sentence true."
19:35:33 <GregorR> pikhq: But if it is false, then it must be false.
19:35:49 <GregorR> pikhq: So using that method doesn't work :)
19:35:54 <pikhq> GregorR: There is no indication that it is false.
19:35:55 <lament> I can't prove it true.
19:36:08 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | WHERE ARE THE RULES? 1. Don't follow this rule. 2. Don't follow this rule. 3. Follow all rules..
19:36:10 <lament> pikhq: there's no indication that it's true, either.
19:36:20 <ihope> "'This sentence is true.' is false." is consistent.
19:36:22 <pikhq> We cannot prove it false. However, if we start from the assumption that "this statement is true", then it is true.
19:36:32 <ihope> Is true. Is false. Is consistent.
19:36:49 <GregorR> pikhq: You can't start from the assumption that it's true without also starting from the assumption that it's false for comparison.
19:36:52 <ihope> asiekierka: paradox.
19:37:01 <ihope> Neither true nor false!
19:37:04 <ehird`> GregorR, the empty statement is true, as it tells nothing that is wrong
19:37:23 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | WHERE ARE THE RULES? 1. Don't follow this rule. 2. Don't follow this rule. 3. Follow all rules. 4. Ignore all rules before this one. 5. Ignore rule #4. 6. Ignore rule #7. 7. Ignore rule #6 and #5..
19:37:27 <ehird`> "This sentence is true." is a redundant empty statement - the empty statement is true, and this has nothing but the assertation that it is true, therefore since it asserts nothing that can be false, it is true.
19:37:51 <asiekierka> Paradox, Double Paradox or TRIPLE paradox?
19:38:10 <GregorR> ehird`: Yes, we can see that it's trivially true. We can also see that it's trivially false.
19:38:18 <pikhq> GregorR: If we start from the assumption that it is false, then we have an unfounded assumption.
19:38:28 <ehird`> GregorR, tell me how it is false
19:38:29 <ihope> X => X. True or false: X is true.
19:38:44 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | WHERE ARE THE RULES? 1. Follow rule #2. 2. Break rule #1..
19:38:48 <GregorR> ehird`: Assume that the statement is false. The statement states that it is true, which is false. QED.
19:38:50 <ihope> Dudes and dudettes, it cannot be proven either way.
19:39:00 <ihope> asiekierka: inconsistent.
19:39:17 <asiekierka> inconsistent? I'm not so good at english. I'm 10 1/2 and from poland.
19:39:18 <lament> ihope: so who's the worst mathematician now?
19:39:26 <ehird`> GregorR, Now, back up that assumption. I can back up assuming it is true - the empty statement "" is true, and it is an extension of the empty statement which comments on itself
19:39:27 <pikhq> asiekierka: That much shows.
19:39:56 <ihope> asiekierka: mathematical term. A theory is inconsistent if it implies a falsehood.
19:39:58 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | Rules: 1. pikhq selects which rule to break. 2. Ignore pikhq. 3. Ignore pikhq. 4. Ignore pikhq. 5. Ignore pikhq..
19:40:09 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | Rules: 1. pikhq selects which rule to break. he MUST select one. 2. Ignore pikhq. 3. Ignore pikhq. 4. Ignore pikhq. 5. Ignore pikhq..
19:40:13 <ihope> (Which, in turn, means that it implies everything.)
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19:40:27 <pikhq> Break rule 6: Follow 2 through 5 inclusive.
19:40:29 <GregorR> ehird`: You don't back up assumptions used doing proofs. You work under each assumption and see if it leads to a sound solution.
19:40:51 <pikhq> Rule 6 is one rule.
19:40:56 <GregorR> ehird`: If the solution is sound, the assumption is proved.
19:41:00 <pikhq> It just states that one follows 2 through 5.
19:41:02 <ihope> Yeah, the rule that says rules must be followed...
19:41:44 <pikhq> asiekierka: Prove 1+1=2.
19:41:57 <pikhq> (trivial proof, BTW)
19:42:01 <GregorR> 2 is defined as 1 more than 1. QED
19:42:10 <asiekierka> I cannot. 1 idiot + 1 idiot = double idiot.
19:42:16 <ehird`> pikhq, S(1) = 2, x+1 = S(x)
19:43:45 <pikhq> We assume that e*e=e^2, that ln(x*y) = ln(x)+ln(y).
19:44:12 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | Rules: 1. pikhq selects which rule to break. he MUST select one only. and from 2-6 only. 2. Ignore pikhq. 3. Ignore pikhq. 4. Ignore pikhq. 5. Ignore pikhq. 6. You can break this one only. 7. You cannot add new rules in..
19:44:55 <ihope> I think that's your only option.
19:45:10 <pikhq> Therefore, one may break any number of rules.
19:46:07 <pikhq> asiekierka: However, you can break any rule but #6.
19:46:14 <ehird`> this completely incorrect logic is intriguing to me.
19:46:26 <pikhq> Thus estabilishing a paradox in your rule set.
19:46:45 <pikhq> I say that you can break #6, so now you can't break #6.
19:46:58 <pikhq> Since it's a paradox, your ruleset is impossible to fully obey.
19:47:00 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | Rules: 1. pikhq selects which rule to break. he MUST select one only. and from 2-6 only. 2. Ignore pikhq. 3. Ignore pikhq. 4. Ignore pikhq. 5. Ignore pikhq. 6. DUMMY RULE LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. 7. You cannot add new rules in..
19:47:42 <asiekierka> 1. pikhq selects which rule to break. he MUST select one only. and from 2-6 only.
19:47:54 <ihope> Er, if you break 6, all that means is that you may be able to break rules other than 6.
19:47:56 <pikhq> Pikhq opts to not break any rule, thereby breaking #1.
19:48:11 <ihope> If you break any other, you're breaking rule 6..
19:48:25 <ihope> Thereby breaking two rules, which is against rule #1.
19:48:46 <ehird`> why is this stupid conversation in existance?
19:49:03 <ehird`> breaking the DUMMY RULE
19:49:14 <pikhq> I select no rules.
19:49:15 <ehird`> so he does not need to create a paradox
19:49:33 <asiekierka> So, if you ignore 6, you have 2-5 and 7 left
19:49:37 <pikhq> Rule #1 is broken, ergo I can choose to break rule #7. :p
19:49:47 <asiekierka> ikhq selects which rule to break. he MUST select one only. and from 2-6 only.
19:50:13 <pikhq> Since I must select one, by not selecting one, the ruleset is broken.
19:50:40 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | Rules: 1. pikhq selects which rule to break. he MUST select one only. and from 2-6 only. 2. Ignore pikhq. 3. Ignore pikhq. 4. Ignore pikhq. 5. Ignore pikhq. 6. DUMMY RULE LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. 7. You cannot add new rules in. 8. If you break r.
19:51:02 <pikhq> Rule #1. You must be at least this smart to be in the channel.
19:51:15 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | Rules: 1. pikhq selects which rule to break. he MUST select one only. and from 2-6 only. 2. Ignore pikhq. 3. Ignore pikhq. 4. Ignore pikhq. 5. Ignore pikhq. 6. DUMMY RULE LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. 7. You cannot add new rules in. 8. If you break rule 1 or 7, you fail in LIFE..
19:51:39 <pikhq> asiekierka: What does ,[.,] do?
19:52:23 <pikhq> That's exactly how smart you must be to be in this channel.
19:52:50 <pikhq> Now, tell me how this works: http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pfuck.tar.bz2
19:53:24 <pikhq> It's even high-level, for your sanity!
19:53:56 <pikhq> Oh. http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pfuck-1.1.tar.bz2
19:53:59 <pikhq> Forgot the version.
19:54:39 <ehird`> i think, the intelligence level required for this channel
19:54:41 <ehird`> is getting on to gulesfish.
19:54:52 <ehird`> asiekierka, http://rodger.shadowarts.org/PHP/Example.php get to gulesfish.
19:55:29 <lament> that's hard for somebody who "didn't use brainfuck any time"
19:55:39 <ehird`> before gulesfish there is no BF-related puzzles
19:55:41 <ehird`> asiekierka, A puzzle site.
19:55:55 <ehird`> asiekierka, fuck fuck fuck
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19:58:07 <pikhq> It accepts input, ignores that, then, while not EOF, takes input, outputs it, and ignores the next input.
19:58:26 <pikhq> Or, higher-level, it outputs every other character of input.
19:58:34 <asiekierka> For all those non-brainers: oh, you said it
19:59:44 <pikhq> ,[>>>>+<<<<[>>>+<+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]--[>-<++++++]>[<+>[-]]+<[>-<-]>[>[-]<<<,[-<.>]>>-]<<<[>>>+<+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]--[>-<++++++]>--[<+>[-]]+<[>-<-]>[>[-]<<<,[-<.>]>>-]<<<[>>>+<+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]----[>-<----]>+++[<+>[-]]+<[>-<-]>[>[-]<<<,[-<.>]>>-]<<<[>>>+<+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]----[>-<----]>+[<+>[-]]+<[>-<-]>[>[-]<<<,[-<.>]>>-]>[<<<<.>>>>[-]]<<<<[-],]
19:59:51 <pikhq> Can you tell me what that does?
20:00:05 <ehird`> asiekierka, it is not 403'd
20:00:07 <ehird`> it just looks like it.
20:00:17 <ehird`> pikhq, even i couldn't tell you what that did.
20:01:11 <pikhq> It accepts input in my BFcompress format (+,-,>, and < are RLE'd) and outputs Brainfuck.
20:01:35 <ehird`> asiekierka, GulesFish yet? :P
20:01:41 <pikhq> One of my earlier Brainfuck hacks (later ported to PEBBLE).
20:01:53 <pikhq> (the version there is the one written via PEBBLE)
20:02:10 <asiekierka> with a 2MB flash memory and USB support
20:02:29 <pikhq> 2MB is overkill, as is USB.
20:02:51 <pikhq> You only need 30,000 chars.
20:03:16 <ehird`> 30,000 is not enough for lots of programs
20:03:26 <pikhq> Hell, you could probably get away with using the processor's cache. . .
20:03:31 <ehird`> i think 100,000 unsigned 1-byte cells is good
20:03:46 <ehird`> about the screen though - will you memmap it?
20:03:48 <pikhq> ehird`: Even LostKingdom runs in 30,000 chars.
20:03:57 <ehird`> or just regular output?
20:04:00 <ehird`> because regular output would suck
20:04:14 <asiekierka> it'll just have a implementation of brainf**k
20:04:17 <ehird`> e.g. i think that , should return "raw" character codes
20:04:34 <ehird`> i think: cell 0, or something, is screen position
20:04:39 <ehird`> . prints character at cell to that position
20:04:47 <ehird`> , gets one raw character code instead of the next character on the line
20:05:28 <pikhq> asiekierka: You get to GulesFish?
20:05:49 <ehird`> or you are EXILED IN FIERY DEATH
20:07:16 <ehird`> hint: that page has been tampered with
20:10:01 <ehird`> brainfuck crasher: +[]
20:10:08 -!- blahbot` has joined.
20:10:12 <ehird`> And sure. Let's see if it crashes.
20:10:25 <ehird`> %bf ,[+.,--]!hello world
20:11:44 <ehird`> it won't eat all memory
20:11:47 <ehird`> it doesn't use > at all
20:11:56 <ehird`> it just adds, outputs, inputs, and subtracts two
20:12:08 <ehird`> incidentally, equal to ,[-.,]
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20:14:39 <pikhq> Damn it, he's coming back.
20:16:14 <ehird`> tomorrow... he is forced to get to gulesfish!
20:16:23 <ehird`> ... maybe forced to beat basil. but that would just be cruel
20:16:41 <ehird`> ... though ... being cruel to someone who uses age as an excuse for anything may be justified ... :P
20:17:46 <pikhq> I use age as an excuse for being an age.
20:19:48 <ehird`> i think i might make a BF pda, but with better cellsize and my screen IO system :P
20:20:01 <ehird`> though i guess maybe it isn't the best
20:20:17 <ehird`> (. = output current cell at position in [0]
20:20:33 <ehird`> , = input one keypress (NOTE: keypress, not character) store in current cell)
20:21:02 <ehird`> still, allows for graphics and stuff
20:21:14 <ehird`> maybe instead a pixel based system
20:21:29 <ehird`> . = flip pixel at position in cell
20:21:45 <ehird`> but.. tedious to use i guess
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20:25:33 <ehird`> with that definition of ., and a 320x240 screen, prizes to whoever gives the shortest code to draw a hollow circle
20:26:03 <ehird`> assuming, of course, that cell size goes up to at least 76800
20:28:03 <ehird`> assuming starting top-left pixel is in the current cell
20:34:23 <ehird`> oh come on, someone? :)
20:35:27 <Sukoshi> Is there a type of Channel in Java's nio that supports pushing back? (Something like PushbackInputStream ?)
20:42:43 <ehird`> should this PDA/machine/thing have any persistant memory?
20:42:48 <ehird`> i.e. a way to save programs
20:42:55 <ehird`> and maybe their output
20:51:34 <pikhq> No, turingcomplete.
20:52:15 <turingcomplete> i forgot my nick from the last time, and that was the first time I was here
20:52:42 <turingcomplete> and turingcomplete was first thing that came into my mind after MrDurp
21:00:07 <ehird`> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_machine proposed BF machine spec
21:07:30 <ehird`> i do wonder how hard that circle program will be though
21:10:31 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.electronixandmore.com/project/relaycomputertwo/
21:33:51 <ihope> There are multiple things that could be deemed "hollow circles".
21:34:19 <ihope> Here, have one: {(0,1), (0,-1), (1,0), (-1,0)}
21:37:33 <ehird`> well like that but bigger ;)
21:37:39 <ehird`> say 50x50 or something
21:37:46 <ehird`> say 50x50 or something
21:38:39 <ehird`> it's just a tiny competition
21:38:49 <ehird`> because i'd like to see some code to demonstate the feasability of its screen mechanism
21:45:03 <ihope> I think it's feasible, as long as you can indeed toggle each bit in an arbitrary way.
21:45:10 <ihope> (It's not feasable unless it can be feased. :-)
21:45:56 <ehird`> what do you mean toggle each bit in an "arbitary" way?
21:46:05 <jix> ehird`: solved the puzzle?
21:46:09 <ehird`> you can get the current 0/1 status of a bit, and flip a bit from 0->1 and 1->0
21:46:15 <ehird`> jix, not yet. i'm going to try later
21:48:40 <ihope> ehird`: can the code always take a number and toggle the corresponding bit?
21:48:54 <ihope> And can it avoid doing so?
21:49:04 <ehird`> ihope, i don't understand
21:49:08 <ehird`> it can always toggle a bit, yes
21:49:17 <ehird`> @ flips the bit whose position is in the current cell
21:49:38 <ehird`> if you wanted to permanently turn off a bit, there's:
21:49:57 <ehird`> you'd have to duplicate the value, then go over to it
21:50:14 <ihope> Yeah, so drawing a circle can definitely be done.
21:50:22 <ehird`> yes, but can it be done relatively concisely?
21:50:35 <ehird`> algorithmically, that is?
21:50:41 <ihope> I don't see why not.
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21:50:56 <ehird`> show your code then :) the spec is here: http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_machine
21:51:02 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, jix finished the whole of your puzzles...
21:51:10 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, he did Basil in a matter of minutes o.O
21:51:28 <ehird`> he didn't get GulesFish though, he didn't know what a red herring was
21:51:38 <ehird`> but once he got that, he finished it in barely any time
21:51:42 <ihope> That was a red herring?
21:52:15 <ihope> Eh, I stopped trying once I didn't see an obvious way to get past GulesFish.
21:52:35 <jix> RodgerTheGreat: yeah... i found basil quite clever
21:52:58 <lament> gulesfish is unfair at least at one step
21:53:14 <ihope> So just how is number translated into point?
21:53:40 <ihope> In the BF machine, that is.
21:54:03 <ehird`> ihope, you know graphics memory?
21:54:16 <ehird`> it's just linear, 80*24 cells
21:54:30 <ihope> 320 wide, 240 tall.
21:54:30 <ehird`> it just displays the first 80, then the next 80, etc
21:54:45 <ehird`> except, its a pointer in this case
21:54:50 <ihope> So (x,y) is x + 240*y?
21:55:20 <ihope> Wrapping would be nice.
21:55:35 <ehird`> ihope, i guess. but if the max value isn't defined..
21:55:56 <ehird`> you could do [-] and end up with 34857459234234 or 76824
21:56:06 <ihope> 999999 * 999999 = 1 (mod 1000000), no?
21:56:18 <ihope> Er, [-] and end up with something other than zero?
21:56:45 <ehird`> maybe i should fix the maximum at 76800
21:57:14 <ihope> As long as the minimum is 0, which is an extremely sensible thing to do. :-)
21:57:31 <ihope> And then it wraps?
21:58:38 <ehird`> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_machine spec updated
21:58:55 <ehird`> if you can give me code to draw, algorithmically, a 50x50 circle with that spec, you get entered into the competition
22:00:38 <RodgerTheGreat> perhaps I should brush off my BF Sine function and get it working properly
22:00:54 <ihope> Sine function. That's a way I hadn't thought of.
22:01:22 <ehird`> until a circle is relatively simple to do, i'll keep refining the spec :) this competition will help
22:01:36 <ihope> Still, you should define a circle.
22:01:49 <ehird`> you've seen a circle before.
22:01:57 <ehird`> there's not that many circles you can make in 50x50...
22:02:16 <RodgerTheGreat> you could also do things with c^2 = sqrt(a^2 + b^2), but it'd be tricky to draw a hollow circle that way
22:02:16 <ihope> Yes, but I can't turn on an uncountably infinite number of points.
22:02:38 <jix> one doesn't use sine to draw circles!
22:02:42 <ehird`> basic benchmark: look something not unlike what paint produces when you drag the circle tool from topleft to bottomright on a 50x50 image
22:04:06 <RodgerTheGreat> ehird`: reminds me a bit of this: http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=5060
22:04:55 <RodgerTheGreat> jix: sine and cosine. You can shift sine's output a little and have cosine for free
22:05:06 <RodgerTheGreat> generate lookup tables and it isn't even horrifically slow
22:05:21 <RodgerTheGreat> ehird`: it just maps the BF tape *directly* to VGA memory
22:05:23 <ihope> Is it okay if I draw a discrete circle? :-P
22:05:35 <jix> RodgerTheGreat: you can done circle drawing with just multiplication and addition/bitshift i think
22:05:42 <RodgerTheGreat> ihope: that'd be trivial, but it seems like it'd be allowed
22:05:46 <ihope> That is, a Galois circle.
22:06:02 <ehird`> sure, go ahead, whatever
22:06:23 <ehird`> as long as it looks like a circle to me
22:06:52 <RodgerTheGreat> you can approximate sine as a McLaurin series, and then do it with just +-/*
22:07:29 <ehird`> i'm just looking for a 50x50 drawing that the average person would recognize as a smooth-for-its-size circle
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22:14:01 <ihope> I don't think Galois circles generally look a thing like "real" circles. :-)
22:18:25 <bsmntbombdood> i've been disconnected 4 times in the last hour, and while i am connected i get about 2kb/s
22:18:52 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
22:22:29 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, it's 100 lines already, isn't it
22:28:03 <ehird`> how long will it be when it's done? 5000?
22:29:51 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
22:29:54 <ehird`> ok, i think drawing a circle is way harder than it needs to be. heh
22:33:32 <ehird`> well, how many characters of BF would you estimate it to be?
22:33:39 <ehird`> i want using this to draw simple shapes /relatively/ simply :)
22:35:18 <RodgerTheGreat> well, a rectangle would be a fuckload easier to write efficiently
22:35:59 <ehird`> but circles are common things
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01:12:30 <ihope> Eight and swapping?
01:12:34 <ihope> How is eight swapping?
01:15:01 <pikhq> Apparently, you can't read.
01:25:30 <ihope> How do you conclude that?
01:27:39 <pikhq> Because you left out every other word.
01:38:43 <ihope> Not swapping as in moving stuff from RAM to some other place and back again?
01:39:57 <pikhq> That's exactly what virtual memory *does*.
02:09:54 -!- Sukoshi has left (?).
03:22:51 <ihope> bsmntbombdood: nope.
03:23:07 <ihope> pikhq: perhaps I should have said "why is eight swapping?"
03:23:38 <pikhq> That's a good question. Why is an adjective being thought of as a noun in your head?
03:24:23 <ihope> pikhq: "why are eight megabytes swapping"?
03:24:56 <bsmntbombdood> is "data Term = Con Int | Div Term Term Term; eval :: Term -> Int; eval (Con a) = a; eval (Div t u) = eval t / eval u" haskell?
03:25:00 <pikhq> Because some poor bastard only has 4 of them to work with. :p
03:25:26 <ihope> bsmntbombdood: it looks like Haskell to me.
03:25:38 <ihope> (And ; happens to be valid Haskell syntax, I believe.)
03:26:38 <ihope> Except I don't believe / works on Ints, and it seems that should be "Div Term Term" in the data declaration, not "Div Term Term Term".
03:36:28 <ihope> Some languages assume you are infallible. Some languages... don't.
03:37:04 <pikhq> Still other languages assume that you are fallible, but don't give a fuck about it.
03:37:14 <bsmntbombdood> you mean in the sense of protecting you from yourself?
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04:30:04 <lament> IMO the key to understanding monads is to ignore the IO one for a while.
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04:55:49 <immibis> wtf is going on with that topic
04:56:23 <immibis> also "pikhq must select 1 and he can only select 2-6"?
05:49:31 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit.
05:51:37 <pikhq> And we've not touched it.
05:51:54 <pikhq> I've opted to not select a rule, thereby breaking the axioms.
06:00:19 * immibis ignores pikhq telling him to break the rule
06:00:50 * immibis sees there are 4 rules which say to ignore pikhq, and he would have to break all 4 at once.
06:01:23 <pikhq> Break whichever one you're using to ignore me.
06:05:17 -!- asiekierka has joined.
06:08:21 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | Rules: 1. pikhq selects which rule to break. he MUST select one only. and from 2-6 only. 2. Ignore pikhq. 3. DO NOT Ignore pikhq. 4. DO NOT Ignore anybody. 5. Talk about BF! 6. DUMMY RULE LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. 7. You cannot add new rules in. 8. If you break rule 1 or 7, you fail in LIFE..
06:09:01 <pikhq> I can accept those axioms.
06:09:13 <pikhq> No ignores, and discussion of pfuck? :)
06:09:23 <pikhq> asiekierka: http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/foo.php
06:13:04 <immibis> 7. You cannot add new rules in.
06:13:15 <immibis> 8. If you break rule 1 or 7, you fail in LIFE.
06:14:02 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | Rules: 1. pikhq selects which rule to break. he MUST select one only. and from 2-6 only. 2. Ignore pikhq. 3. DO NOT Ignore pikhq. 4. DO NOT Ignore anybody. 5. Talk about BF! 6. DUMMY RULE LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. 7. You MUST add new rules in. 8. If you break rule 1 or 7, you fail in LIFE..
06:15:19 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | Rules: 1. pikhq selects which rule to break. he MUST select one only. and from 2-6 only. 2. Ignore pikhq. 3. DO NOT Ignore pikhq. 4. DO NOT Ignore anybody. 5. Talk about BF! 6. DUMMY RULE LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. 7. You MUST add new rules in AND do not edit existing rules. 8. If you break rule 1 or 7, you fail.
06:15:23 <pikhq> I already have done that.
06:15:28 -!- immibis has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | Rules: 1. pikhq selects which rule to break. he MUST select one only. and from 2-6 only. 2. Ignore asiekierka. 3. DO NOT ignore pikhq. 4. DO NOT listen to asiekierka. 5. Talk about BF! 6. DUMMY RULE LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. 7. anyone can add new rules in or edit existing once except for asiekierka. 8. If you break rule 1 or 7 or your name is asiekier.
06:15:53 -!- immibis has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | Rules: 1. pikhq selects which rule to break. he MUST select one only. and from 2-6 only. 2. Ignore asiekierka. 3. DO NOT ignore pikhq. 4. DO NOT listen to asiekierka. 5. Talk about BF! 6. DUMMY RULE LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. 7. anyone can add new rules in or edit existing once except for asiekierka. 8. If you break rule 1 or 7 you fail..
06:16:17 -!- pikhq has set topic: Esoteric programming language disccusion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | No rules..
06:16:18 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | Rules: 1. How about we all stfu (bsmntbombdood, thx for the idea! you won in LIFE!).
06:16:31 -!- pikhq has set topic: Esoteric programming language disccusion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org.
06:16:58 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language disccusion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | Rules: 1. No rules. 2. Break rule #1..
06:17:11 -!- pikhq has set topic: Esoteric programming language disccusion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org.
06:17:27 -!- asiekierka has set topic: #Esoteric ruleset disccusion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org.
06:17:43 -!- pikhq has set topic: Esoteric programming language disccusion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org.
06:17:48 -!- pikhq has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org.
06:18:08 -!- asiekierka has set topic: No disccusion. | FORUM AND WIKI: I said, NO DISCUSSION! | Rules: 1. No discussion..
06:18:14 -!- immibis has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org.
06:18:28 * immibis wonders how to make an icechat script that locks-down the topic
06:18:37 <immibis> locks-down = changes it back when someone changes it
06:18:49 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric stfu discussion | STFU and STFU: STFU..
06:18:55 <pikhq> lament: You're an op. Set +t.
06:19:02 -!- pikhq has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org.
06:19:27 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | Rules: 1. Do not change the topic or you fail in life..
06:19:52 -!- pikhq has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org.
06:20:00 <pikhq> I have no life to fail at. :p
06:20:17 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: STFU | Rules: 1. Do not change topic or you fail in life. pikhq did..
06:20:25 -!- pikhq has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org.
06:20:44 <pikhq> Damn, this is stupid.
06:20:53 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | Rules: 1. Stop changing the TOPIC!.
06:21:13 <pikhq> I'll agree to that rule, actually.
06:22:02 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | Rules: 1. Break at least one rule. 2. Stop changing the TOPIC FINALLY!.
06:23:30 <asiekierka> Please allow me to change the topic though or i'll delete rule #2.
06:24:23 <pikhq> You may break rule 1.
06:24:40 -!- bsmntbombdood has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric.
06:24:41 <pikhq> You may ignore the paradox involved.
06:24:46 <asiekierka> because if you break rule #1, you can't break any rule...
06:25:04 <pikhq> Humans are good at avoiding paradoxes.
06:25:05 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | Rules: C:\_.
06:25:07 <pikhq> You know that, right?
06:26:14 <pikhq> Here is how humans avoid paradoxes:
06:26:16 <pikhq> We don't give a fuck.
06:26:28 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | Rules: C:\del rules.exe and C:\copy pikhq.dat rules.exe.
06:26:44 <pikhq> You. . . Use DOS?!?
06:27:23 <pikhq> Poor, un-UNIXed soul.
06:27:51 -!- immibis has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM ANDWIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | Rules: C:\del rules.exe and C:\copy pikhq.dat rules.exe and C:\del rules.exe and Do not change the topic..
06:27:53 -!- immibis has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion \.
06:28:03 -!- asiekierka has set topic: C:\.
06:28:05 -!- immibis has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion \.
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06:28:44 -!- asiekierka has set topic: >run "#esoteric_irc.exe".
06:28:44 -!- immibis has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion \.
06:28:55 -!- asiekierka has set topic.
06:28:57 -!- immibis has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion \.
06:29:07 <immibis> i was just about to disable it too
06:29:16 -!- asiekierka has set topic: ..
06:29:28 -!- pikhq has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric.
06:29:36 * immibis thinks he's fixed the script
06:29:41 -!- asiekierka has set topic: .
06:29:45 * pikhq would like to second that
06:29:47 -!- pikhq has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric.
06:29:54 <pikhq> asiekierka: Could ya stop?
06:30:17 * immibis knows absolutely NOTHING about icechat scripting so he gives up and deletes the script.
06:30:41 <pikhq> Here are the instructions: [] does a while loop. . does output of the current cell. , does input to the current cell. + increments the current cell.
06:30:46 <pikhq> - decrements the current cell.
06:30:53 <pikhq> > goes right a cell. < goes left a cell.
06:30:58 <pikhq> That's the whole language.
06:31:19 <pikhq> So, you know Brainfuck.
06:31:28 <immibis> for example: ,[.,] is a cat program.
06:31:36 <pikhq> (not necessarily how to do anything useful with it: that comes from experimentation)
06:31:42 <immibis> input, then while the current cell is nonzero, output and input again
06:32:40 <asiekierka> ,[,.,] - my creation, shows every other character, or in low-level:
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06:33:31 <toBogE> I have a BF interpreter which does not support input because this is IRC.
06:33:41 <toBogE> EgoBot has a better BF interpreter but he's not around.
06:34:05 <immibis> just thought it might be useful for asiekierka
06:34:20 <immibis> you can stop it, you know.
06:34:21 <toBogE> 2 Process on #esoteric: ps (Thread-ID 4)
06:34:22 <toBogE> 1 Process on #esoteric: bf +[] (Thread-ID 3)
06:35:01 <immibis> !irp is a command which sends text to #esoteric
06:35:02 <toBogE> is a command which sends text to #esoteric
06:35:10 <immibis> !raw is a command which sends raw irc commands
06:35:22 <immibis> eg: !raw PRIVMSG #toboge :I am a bot
06:35:29 <immibis> will send "I am a bot" to #toboge
06:35:53 <immibis> there's your !echo command
06:35:59 <asiekierka> !irp BF and /part were in a boat. /part shooted BF. Who's the killer?
06:35:59 <toBogE> BF and /part were in a boat. /part shooted BF. Who's the killer?
06:36:30 <immibis> you didn't say anyone dies
06:36:31 <immibis> you didn't say anyone died
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06:37:12 <asiekierka> the. best. use. of. it. YET. Am i rite?
06:37:25 <immibis> also: ?FACTOIDNAME will retrieve factoids
06:37:26 <toBogE> x is the letter before y
06:37:28 <toBogE> y is the down-coordinate.
06:37:30 <toBogE> z is the letter after y.
06:37:54 <immibis> ? is for retrieving information
06:38:24 -!- toBogE has quit (Nick collision from services.).
06:38:35 <immibis> it seems to get ghosted a lot
06:38:49 <immibis> as in, it gets disconnected but doesn't know it
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06:40:17 <asiekierka> !raw QUIT Shut up y'all and i'll comeback.
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06:59:26 -!- asieaway has changed nick to asiekierka.
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07:03:00 <immibis> i see asiekierka was being annoying
07:03:13 <pikhq> Well, yes, 10 year olds are good at that.
07:03:27 <immibis> asiekierka's 10 years old?
07:04:08 <asiekierka> -._.-'-._ and i'm smart enough to learn ASCII and BF. _.-'-._.-
07:04:32 * pikhq has been programming since 8
07:04:33 <immibis> asiekierka: probably not a good idea to use your real name on irc if you're only 10
07:04:44 <pikhq> Stupid hacks back then, though.
07:04:52 * immibis has also been programming since about 8 (he thinks, he can't remember exactly when)
07:04:59 <pikhq> asiekierka: Still not a good idea.
07:05:15 <immibis> Adrian Siekierka: don't your parents care?
07:05:29 -!- toBogE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
07:05:38 * pikhq started doing remotely *serious* stuff towards the age of 12. . . That being about when I started in UNIXdom.
07:05:40 <asiekierka> No not really in fact... they don't know even 10% of what i am doing.
07:05:53 -!- toBogE has joined.
07:06:50 <immibis> !ctcp ACTION has no idea what pikhq is talking about
07:06:50 * toBogE has no idea what pikhq is talking about
07:07:06 <pikhq> That's really not good.
07:07:39 -!- asiekierka has quit.
07:07:41 <immibis> !ctcp ACTION has no idea what anyone is talking about - he can't understand human lnguages.
07:07:41 <toBogE> <CTCP>ACTION has no idea what anyone is talking about -
07:07:42 <toBogE> he can't understand human lnguages.<CTCP>
07:08:17 * immibis tests using a hyphen - in a CTCP ACTION command
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14:31:25 <asiekierka> Can anybody try to optimize the size of my BF code?
14:32:45 <RodgerTheGreat> well, multiplication can only compress constants of size 15 or greater
14:34:15 <asiekierka> +++++++++++++>++++++++++>,.>,.>,.<<<<.>.>>>>,.>,.>,.<<<<<<<.>.>>>>>>>,.>,.>,.
14:35:12 <RodgerTheGreat> it's possible that you could optimize those pointer movements
14:35:34 <asiekierka> <RodgerTheGreat> well, multiplication can only compress constants of size 15 or greater
14:36:41 <RodgerTheGreat> well, there's a difference between generating a constant and moving the pointer, because you can arrange your memory cells however you want
14:38:23 <RodgerTheGreat> if you don't need to save the 9 inputs, for example, you can make it *much* smaller. If you still want to keep that data in memory it might be faster to store your newlines in the center of the 3x3 grid data so that it's "closer" on average
14:39:35 <RodgerTheGreat> if you're new to optimizing BF, this page might be worth a glance: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainfuck_constants
14:41:56 <asiekierka> +++++++++++++>++++++++++>,.>,.>,.<<<<.>.>,.>,.>,.<<<<.>.>>>>,.>,.>,.
14:43:00 <RodgerTheGreat> although you can use a similar process to make it even smaller
14:43:41 <RodgerTheGreat> +++++++++++++>++++++++++>,.,.,.<<.>.>,.,.,.<<.>.>,.,.,.
14:44:01 <RodgerTheGreat> then you store all your intermediate data in a single cell
14:51:38 <asiekierka> I guess we just decrased it by ~1,4 times!
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15:00:51 <asiekierka> +++++++++++++>++++++++++>>+++[<<<.>.>,.,.,.,.>-]
15:02:53 <RodgerTheGreat> although remember- that version is the best possible optimization for code length. The version I posted before it is the best possible optimization for speed.
15:03:24 <RodgerTheGreat> because they're the same program- mine has a loop unrolled, while yours is packed
15:03:47 <RodgerTheGreat> but most people honestly don't bother optimizing BF for speed
15:04:28 <RodgerTheGreat> another speed example- ++++++++[>+++++<-] is slower than +++++[>++++++++<-]
15:05:29 <RodgerTheGreat> because the overhead of the loop is executed fewer times
15:05:48 <RodgerTheGreat> that's a situation where identical code length results in a different execution time
15:10:14 <asiekierka> yes... We always should multiply LOWER[<GREATER right?
15:11:55 <asiekierka> I don't care about execution time. Most of us have at least 800mhz processors
15:12:02 <RodgerTheGreat> and when you can do many multiplies inline (like ++++++[>+++++++>+++++>+++++<<<-], you save even more overhead
15:12:32 <RodgerTheGreat> true, but ordering your multiplies properly is usually a "free" optimization- faster code at no length cost
15:12:56 <asiekierka> sometimes it is NOT possible... but...
15:13:15 <asiekierka> you cannot check which one is greater in BF without overhead?
15:14:00 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I'm talking about generating constants. When you generate constants, it's *YOU* that needs to know which one is greater
15:18:10 <asiekierka> It's a good code now, not bloated, isn't it?
15:18:40 <asiekierka> i know it IS a bit bloated still, but it's due to BF...
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15:20:33 * ehird` is toying with the idea of making a homebrew cpu
15:21:45 <ehird`> + if i was going to make a BF device (which i am toying with admittedly - http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_machine) i wouldn't use a premade spec
15:24:23 <asiekierka> STDIN? will use a console-like keyboard
15:24:27 <RodgerTheGreat> asiekierka: I'd like to see a program in C that is the same length as "+++++++++++++>++++++++++>>+++[<<<.>.>,.,.,.,.>-]" while accomplishing the same task
15:24:38 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't think BF is necessarily bloated for simple things
15:25:01 <RodgerTheGreat> it's fucking sweet for implementing a variety of cyphers
15:26:11 <ehird`> asiekierka, that extension could be come up with in 5 minutes
15:26:22 <ehird`> seriously, why bother extending an idea if you don't have anything really useful to add to it?
15:26:37 <ehird`> my machine design has no limits on tape size
15:26:41 <ehird`> it can be anything the maker wants
15:26:56 <ehird`> anything > 320x240 1bit would be hell to code graphics with
15:27:15 <ehird`> and backwards compatibility is useful, the new commands adding much-needed flexibility for lower-level code
15:27:44 <ehird`> 76799 is (320*240)-1, so you can do "----" to get near the end instead of "<insanely much +s here>"
15:27:57 <ehird`> my spec has no limit on cells
15:28:10 <ehird`> whatever amount of cells you have, if you don't change anything else, it is still according to my spec
15:28:32 <ehird`> it says NOTHING about how much ram/how many cells a machine must have
15:28:40 <ehird`> therefore you haven't really extended the idea at all
15:29:12 <ehird`> this is fscking BRAINFUCK
15:29:52 <RodgerTheGreat> even if you make those extensions, it'd need to be transparent to BF
15:30:04 <asiekierka> i will put up to 1MB of cells (1048576). It's enough for 99,9% of people
15:30:20 <asiekierka> SD card will be a storage/pagefile space
15:30:33 <asiekierka> along with an included 4MB flashmem i guess
15:31:05 <ehird`> <asiekierka> i will put up to 1MB of cells (1048576). It's enough for 99,9% of people
15:31:21 <ehird`> 60,000 should be enough for anyone (TM)
15:33:16 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, yes, but some things use more
15:33:21 <ehird`> 60,000 should work with anything
15:33:43 <ehird`> but 100,000 - that's just a waste
15:44:18 <ehird`> ask yourself if you even need ram to implement this
15:45:30 <ehird`> exactly, you don't need ram
15:45:54 <ehird`> try and make the most minimal BF cpu design you can :)
15:46:11 <ehird`> maybe ditch the screen stuff - just use a LED display like on calculators
15:46:35 <ehird`> if you get it really small i'll be impressed :)
15:46:42 <asiekierka> but i'd rather go on and make a 240x80 screen
15:47:20 <asiekierka> 20x8 + scrollbar is enough for ANYONE!
15:47:48 <ehird`> just make up/down keys
15:47:51 <ehird`> no need to display a scrollbar
15:48:15 <ehird`> you won't be able to run many useful BF programs
15:48:26 <ehird`> you at least want a-z0-9
15:48:37 <ehird`> and, of course, a shift key for A-Z and maybe a few useful special chars on 0-9
15:48:48 <ehird`> make the keys those small rubbery things
15:49:05 <ehird`> probably the best idea
15:49:13 <ehird`> don't make it too big :P
15:49:19 <asiekierka> i will make a-z, 0-9, shift key, special chars on 0-9, all bf chars separate.
15:49:42 <asiekierka> BF chars will be on Shift+0-7 probably
15:49:43 <ehird`> a-z0-9, shift key, space key, enter key, arrow keys, backspace/(shift backspace = delete) key, and brainfuck command keys
15:50:33 <asiekierka> a-z-0-9, shift,space,enter,arrow keys, backspace, and: Shift0-7 - bf command keys, Shift8 - @, Shift9 - $.
15:50:51 <ehird`> i guess, but special keys get quite some use in BF
15:51:07 <ehird`> maybe you should refine qwerty's 0-9 special keys, then have seperate <>+-.,[] keys
15:57:53 <ehird`> how about, a-z0-9, ctrl and shift keys
15:57:56 <ehird`> shift changes a-z into A-Z
15:58:00 <ehird`> and 0-9 into special characters
15:58:11 <ehird`> ctrl changes 0-7 into brainfuck, 8-9 into i dunno,
16:00:07 <asiekierka> I think i could make it in a small enough dimensions.
16:00:50 <ehird`> 38 keys -> 144 characters
16:00:55 <ehird`> (assuming ctrl-shift is allowed)
16:01:32 <asiekierka> Ctrl-Shift-M is Linux newline (just 10, not 13 and 10)
16:01:41 -!- Naerian has joined.
16:01:42 <ehird`> ctrl-m is linux newline
16:02:02 <asiekierka> so CtrlShift-M will be Windows newline (for example, I use it)
16:02:11 <asiekierka> so we should allow for both.... in fact
16:02:24 <ehird`> ctrl-m is what most people will think
16:02:42 <ehird`> why do you need multiple newline styles for a simple brainfuck cpu????
16:02:42 <asiekierka> CtrlShiftM will toggle between win and lin
16:03:15 -!- sebbu has joined.
16:03:28 <Naerian> amatorem ezoterycznych jezykow :P
16:04:05 <Naerian> ja napisalem program wyswietlajacy moj email :D
16:17:14 -!- Naerian has left (?).
16:18:12 <asiekierka> You know what command i'd like to see?
16:20:24 <asiekierka> Then i could make the one cool thing. It will probably take ~2MB :DDD
16:20:39 <asiekierka> except if i will go on and make stdin the whole ascii charset
16:23:59 -!- ehird` has quit (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
16:24:19 -!- ehird` has joined.
16:52:07 * ehird` wonders why CISC computers still exist
16:52:38 -!- ihope__ has joined.
16:52:46 <pikhq> Because IA32 is still in existence, of course.
16:52:53 -!- ihope__ has changed nick to ihope.
16:53:58 <ihope> Maybe the "quine theorem" states that there is a quine in every programming language that can output any string a Turing-complete language can in an alphabet including all characters in its source code.
17:07:54 <pikhq> ihope: I have a reformulation for you.
17:12:15 -!- lament has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric.
17:14:48 <ehird`> you killed the retarded rules
17:17:11 <pikhq> We assume that we have a Turing-complete language with an output tape, and that the program tape and the output tape have the same alphabet.
17:18:07 <pikhq> It is possible for a program to be executed, generating a copy of the program tape on the output tape, in any such language.
17:20:42 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out).
17:21:54 <ehird`> you can simulate strings in the lambda-calculus with lists
17:22:02 <ehird`> therefore a lambda-calculus quine is possible
17:22:08 <ehird`> and lambda-calculus can be converted to iota
17:22:14 <ehird`> so, obviously, an iota quine is possible...
17:22:20 <ehird`> but who will be the first to write one? :)
17:22:24 <lament> you can simulate anything in anything turing-complete
17:22:33 <ehird`> but i want to see an iota quine =)
17:22:54 <lament> iota actually takes input and output, doesn't it?
17:24:08 <lament> i thought it had some convention for IO
17:24:12 <pikhq> ehird`: Actually, a lambda calculus quine is impossible, since it doesn't have an output tape.
17:24:20 <ehird`> pikhq, lambda calculus has lists
17:24:28 <pikhq> Yes, but they're not output.
17:24:39 <pikhq> Those are part of the program itself.
17:24:41 <lament> A lambda calculus quine will never finish reducing
17:24:45 <ehird`> you know what i mean, though
17:24:55 <ehird`> an expression that produces a list of church numerals containing its source code
17:25:06 <pikhq> Now, we assume a sexp lambda calculus, with the following functions: def, lambda, and output.
17:25:15 <ehird`> pikhq, you don't need any of that
17:25:20 <ehird`> you could write one in pure LC
17:25:43 <pikhq> def and lambda act as you'd expect. output outputs the Church numeral that is it's argument, converted to ASCII.
17:25:59 <ehird`> if you can write a quine in pure LC - as you can
17:26:01 <pikhq> ehird`: No output for the LC quine to write itself to.
17:26:02 <ehird`> then you can write one in iota
17:26:09 <ehird`> pikhq, a list of church numerals
17:26:22 <lament> that's lazyk's convention and nothing more
17:26:49 <ehird`> it is still a working convention
17:27:08 <ehird`> you can write a lambda calculus expression which when evaluated returns a list of church numerals representing the expression in ascii format
17:27:13 <ehird`> by extension, you can do the same with iota
17:27:14 <pikhq> Mmkay. . . So, you've got something that only outputs if it halts.
17:27:26 <pikhq> Sure, I suppose that's acceptable.
17:27:33 <ehird`> -- maybe with 0 and 1 for * and i to keep things simple
17:27:40 <lament> well, of course it'll halt, otherwise it's not much of a quine :)
17:28:03 <pikhq> lament: Well, yeah. All *quines* will halt. The issue is only that a nonhalting program can't do output.
17:28:14 <pikhq> But that's not *needed* for a quine to exist.
17:28:23 <lament> pikhq: with functional languages that's never an important issue
17:28:59 <pikhq> (lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x));So, you're saying that it doesn't matter whether or not this halts?
17:29:00 <lament> all non-halting programs are equivalent
17:29:13 <lament> pikhq: it doesn't output anything either
17:29:17 <lament> pikhq: it's the same as bottom
17:29:26 <pikhq> asiekierka: Trivial. ;)
17:29:36 <pikhq> (that's one feature of PEBBLE, in fact)
17:29:37 <ehird`> asiekierka, done in 47 characters in BF itself.
17:29:58 <ehird`> http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/results0.txt
17:30:00 <lament> ehird`: is that a bf golf result?
17:30:07 <ehird`> +++++[>+++++++++<-],[[>--.++>+<<-]>+.->[<.>-]<<,]
17:30:07 <pikhq> If you're still new at programming, something that simple may still be useful to write.
17:30:11 <ehird`> %bf +++++[>+++++++++<-],[[>--.++>+<<-]>+.->[<.>-]<<,]!h
17:30:11 <blahbot`> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
17:30:15 <ehird`> not exactly optimized, though
17:30:25 <lament> man, my entry is the longest :(
17:30:29 <ehird`> %bf +++++[>+++++++++<-],[[>--.++>+<<-]>+.->[<.>-]<<,]!+++++[>+++++++++<-],[[>--.++>+<<-]>+.->[<.>-]<<,]
17:30:29 -!- blahbot` has quit (Excess Flood).
17:30:40 * pikhq doesn't have an entry. . .
17:30:42 <ehird`> that produced about 100 messages
17:30:47 -!- blahbot` has joined.
17:31:03 <ehird`> %bf +++++[>+++++++++<-],[[>--.++>+<<-]>+.->[<.>-]<<,]!hi
17:31:03 <blahbot`> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
17:31:06 <ehird`> %bf +++++[>+++++++++<-],[[>--.++>+<<-]>+.->[<.>-]<<,]!hel
17:31:06 <blahbot`> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------++++++++++++++++++++++++
17:31:08 <ehird`> %bf +++++[>+++++++++<-],[[>--.++>+<<-]>+.->[<.>-]<<,]!hello
17:32:16 <pikhq> %bf >---[<->-----]<+.---.+++++++..+++.>--[<->-----]<+.
17:32:27 <ehird`> %bf >><[+.,-->>+<-]!hello
17:34:31 <asiekierka> %bf +++++++++++++>++++++++++>>+++[<<<<.>.>,.,.,.,.>-]!CUBEMAKETOOl
17:34:52 <asiekierka> %bf +++++++++++++>++++++++++>>+++[<<<<.>.>,.,.,.,.>-]! __ |:D||__|
17:35:04 <ehird`> %bf +++++++++++++>++++++++++>>+++[<<<<.>.>,.,.,.,.>-]!what a useless program
17:35:13 <ehird`> %bf +++++++++++++>++++++++++>>+++[<<<<.>.>,.,.,.,.>-]!what a useless broken program
17:35:26 <asiekierka> %bf +++++++++++++>++++++++++>>+++[<<<<.>.>,.,.,.,.>-]!I knowlol!
17:35:38 <asiekierka> %bf +++++++++++++>++++++++++>>+++[<<<<.>.>,.,.,.,.>-]!I knowlol!
17:37:15 -!- cmeme has quit ("Client terminated by server").
17:37:26 <pikhq> %bf >,[>,]<[.<]!!iH!],.[, fb%
17:37:26 -!- cmeme has joined.
17:37:58 <ehird`> %bf ,[.,]!Hi!!]<.[<],>[,> fb%
17:38:28 <pikhq> That does nothing.
17:38:46 <pikhq> $bf ++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>.
17:38:49 <ehird`> hey... what about a program that run one way, produces a program that (run one way, prints Hello, and run another way, olleH), and run another way, that same program reversed
17:38:52 <pikhq> I believe that is what you meant?
17:38:55 <ehird`> %bf ++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>.
17:39:07 <lament> ehird`: in what language?
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17:39:58 <pikhq> It coudln't rely on loops.
17:40:12 <lament> somebody had a reversible brainfuck variant, that could be helpful
17:40:24 <ehird`> lament, reversible in code, silly
17:40:30 <ehird`> pikhq, your program did there
17:41:00 <asiekierka> %bf ++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>---.++++++++++++++++++.----------.----.>>>++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
17:41:04 <lament> ehird`: what else does reversible mean?
17:41:13 <pikhq> ehird`: Reversing it would generate a non-valid BF program.
17:41:30 <ehird`> pikhq, look at your program
17:41:32 <pikhq> asiekierka: Not bad. I think you're getting the hang of Brainfuck's basics.
17:41:34 <ehird`> it uses loops and reverses fine
17:41:53 <asiekierka> %bf +[+++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>---.++++++++++++++++++.----------.----.>>>++++[>++++++++<-]>+.]
17:41:55 <pikhq> ehird`: So, ,[.,] is just as valid as ],.[,
17:42:01 <ehird`> lament, program.reverse != program, but bf(program) and bf(program.reverse) both do something (maybe not the same thing)
17:42:05 <ehird`> pikhq, %bf >,[>,]<[.<]!!iH!],.[, fb%
17:42:25 <lament> i would treat that as a syntax error
17:42:31 <ehird`> %bf >,[>,]<[.<]!!iH!],.[, fb%
17:42:34 <lament> but i suppose there's no requirement for loops to be closed
17:42:38 <pikhq> Sure, but that's not Brainfuck; that's Brainfuck + input.
17:43:17 <ehird`> %bf >,[>,]<[.<]!>,[>,]<[.<]
17:43:22 <pikhq> Well, in *that* case, one would merely have to rely upon ignoring input.
17:43:32 <ehird`> pikhq, that's cheating a little
17:44:05 <ehird`> %bf >,[>,]<[.<]!]<.[<],>[,>
17:44:14 <lament> your rules for what is and what isn't cheating seem a little arbitrary
17:44:23 <pikhq> %bf >,[>,]<[.<]!%bf ++++++++++.>----[<+>----]<-.>++++[<+++++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>--[<->-----]<+.
17:44:24 <blahbot`> .+<]----->-<[-->.+++..+++++++.+<]->+++++++<[++++>.-<]---->+<[---->.++++++++++ fb%
17:44:31 <ehird`> %bf .+<]----->-<[-->.+++..+++++++.+<]->+++++++<[++++>.-<]---->+<[---->.++++++++++ fb%
17:44:38 <blahbot`> 0. bf +[+++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>---.++++++++++++++++++.----------.----.>>>++++[>++++++++<-]>+.]
17:44:48 <pikhq> %bf ++++++++++.>----[<+>----]<-.>++++[<+++++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>--[<->-----]<+.!.+<]----->-<[-->.+++..+++++++.+<]->+++++++<[++++>.-<]---->+<[---->.++++++++++ fb%
17:45:23 <ehird`> pikhq, wait that produces the output
17:45:26 <ehird`> not a program producing the output
17:45:36 <pikhq> The idea is confusing.
17:45:53 <ehird`> BF(BF(x.reverse)) = olleH
17:46:07 <ehird`> BF(BF(x.reverse)) == BF(BF(x).reverse)
17:46:26 <ehird`> X produces a program Y. X reversed produces Y reversed.
17:46:34 <ehird`> Y in normal order prints out "Hello"
17:46:39 <ehird`> Y reversed prints out "olleH"
17:48:23 <ehird`> %bf ,[>,][<][.>]--[>--<+++++++]>--[<][.>]![>,][<][.>]--[>--<+++++++]>--[<][.>]
17:49:28 <ehird`> %bf ,[>,][<][.>]--[>--<+++++++]>--<.[<][.>]!,[>,][<][.>]--[>--<+++++++]>--<.[<][.>]
17:49:47 <ehird`> %parse ,[>,][<][.>]--[>--<+++++++]>--<.[<][.>]!,[>,][<][.>]--[>--<+++++++]>--<.[<][.>]
17:49:48 <blahbot`> ,[>,][<][.>]--[>--<+++++++]>--<.[<][.>],[>,][<][.>]--[>--<+++++++]>--<.[<][.>]
17:51:04 <ehird`> %bf ,[>,][<][.>]--[>--<+++++++]>--<.[<][.>!hello
17:51:04 -!- blahbot` has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:51:20 -!- blahbot` has joined.
17:51:22 <ehird`> %bf ,[>,][<][.>]--[>--<+++++++]>--<.[<][.>]!hello
17:51:50 <ehird`> %bf ,[>,][<][.>]!hello
17:51:52 -!- jix has joined.
17:52:07 <ehird`> %bf ,[>,]<[<][.>]!hello
17:53:03 <ehird`> %bf ,[>,]<[<]>[.>]!hello
17:53:16 <ehird`> %bf ,[>,]<[<]>>.!hello
17:53:38 <ehird`> %bf ,[>,]<[<]>>>>>>>>>>>>.!hello
17:54:03 <lament> is it maybe ignoring you
17:54:29 <blahbot`> [66, 67, 6, 67, 81, 73, 76, 69]
17:54:32 <ehird`> %bf ,[>,]<[<][.>]--[>--<+++++++]>--.<<<[<][.>]!,[>,]<[<][.>]--[>--<+++++++]>--.<<<[<][.>]
17:54:42 <asiekierka> %bf ++++++[>++++++++<-]>-.<++++++[>++++++++++<-]>++.--------.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.>,[.,]!and asiekierka are trying something
17:54:42 <blahbot`> /me and asiekierka are trying something
17:55:16 <blahbot`> i do not like being forced to run programs and say things! stop itl.
17:55:58 <blahbot`> yeah!! do you think i chose that nick????
17:56:19 <asiekierka> %bf ++++++[>++++++++<-]>-.<++++++[>++++++++++<-]>++.--------.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.>,[.,]
17:56:42 <asiekierka> %bf >>+++++++[<<+[>+++<-]>[<+++>-]>-]<<
17:56:47 <blahbot`> 0. bf ,[>,]<[<][.>]--[>--<+++++++]>--.<<<[<][.>]!,[>,]<[<][.>]--[>--<+++++++]>--.<<<[<][.>]
17:56:47 <blahbot`> 2. bf ,[>,]<[<]>>>>>>>>>>>>.!hello
17:57:24 <ehird`> the pids rejiggle themselves
17:57:51 <asiekierka> %bf >>+++++++[<<+[>+++<-]>[<+++>-]>-]<<.
17:59:05 <asiekierka> %bf >+++>++++>++>++>++++>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>++>++>+++>++++>++
17:59:07 <asiekierka> +>+>++++>++>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>++>+
17:59:07 <asiekierka> +>+>++++>+>+>+>++++>++>++>+++>++++>++++>++>++++>++>+>++++>+>+>++++>++>+++>++++>+
17:59:07 <asiekierka> +>++>++>++>+++>++++>++>++>+>++++>+>+>+>+>++++>++>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+++>++++>++++>+
17:59:07 <asiekierka> +>+>++++>++++>++>++++>++>+++>++++>+++>+>++>++>+++>++++>++>++>+>++++>+>+>++++>++>
17:59:07 <asiekierka> +>+>+++>++++>++++>++>+>++++>+>+>++++>++>++++>++>+>++++>+>++++[[>>+[>]+>+[<]<-]>>
17:59:07 <asiekierka> [>]++++>++[<]<<]>+[>>]<[+[<++++++++++++++++>-]<++++++++++.<]
17:59:31 <lament> can we please somehow flood a little less than that
17:59:35 <asiekierka> %bf >+++>++++>++>++>++++>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>++>++>+++>++++>+++>+>++++>++>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>++>++>+>++++>+>+>+>++++>++>++>+++>++++>++++>++>++++>++>+>++++>+>+>++++>++>+++>++++>++>++>++>++>+++>++++>++>++>+>++++>+>+>+>+>++++>++>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+++>++++>++++>++>+>++++>++++>++>++++>++>+++>++++>+++>+>++>++>+++>++++>++>++>+>++++>+>+>++++>++>+>+>+++>++++>++++>++>+>++++>+>+>++++>++>+
18:00:42 <lament> catlol, the opposite of lolcat?
18:00:44 <blahbot`> quit, eval, ps, kill, cmds, help, reload, join, part, send, topic, raw, bf, parse, reduce, wapr (use %help for argument information)
18:00:50 <ehird`> if you do use %help do it in #esoteric-blah
18:01:00 <ehird`> %bf ,[>,]<[<]>[.>]--[>--<+++++++]>--.<<<[<]>[.>]!h
18:01:02 <blahbot`> 0. bf ,[>,]<[<]>[.>]--[>--<+++++++]>--.<<<[<]>[.>]!h
18:01:05 <ehird`> it works on other interps..
18:03:05 -!- blahbot` has quit ("ehird`, that's what blahbot` is for.").
18:03:33 -!- blahbot` has joined.
18:10:22 -!- MichaelRaskin_ has left (?).
18:11:45 -!- cherez has joined.
18:12:36 <ehird`> asiekierka, are you just being silly for the sake of it
18:12:38 <blahbot`> quit, eval, ps, kill, cmds, help, reload, join, part, send, topic, raw, bf, parse, reduce, nc, wapr (use %help for argument information)
18:12:40 <ehird`> it accepts nothing else
18:16:02 * ehird` wonders what to add to blahbot`
18:16:21 <ehird`> cherez, i'm not an AI coder
18:16:26 <lament> ehird`: the capacity to feel pain
18:16:32 <asiekierka> %kick asiekierka! %kick asiekierka! %kick asiekierka! %kick asiekierka! %kick asiekierka! %kick asiekierka! %kick asiekierka! %kick asiekierka! %kick asiekierka!
18:18:39 <pikhq> Fromagx, you should add a personality to Blahbot for ehird. ;)
18:19:33 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | Rules. 1. Break at least one rule. 2. Worship blahbot`..
18:19:55 <pikhq> Hell, you should code it such a good personality that we obtain singularity. (w00t!)
18:20:41 <asiekierka> Code it such a bad personality he kicks anybody that dosen't say "I LOVE YOU" to him.
18:21:46 <cherez> Code it such a good personality that everyone does!
18:22:08 <asiekierka> Hell, you should code it such a good personality he loves me.
18:22:38 <cherez> Give him a nice body too.
18:23:11 <lament> "nice" - "capable of wielding rocket launchers"?
18:23:25 <asiekierka> you can't do anything but wet your pants looking at the awesomeness of my idea.
18:26:54 <lament> bf doesn't have sockets
18:27:30 <blahbot`> all i want is a personality. not a rewrite
18:27:48 <asiekierka> just make people type %bf personality for it
18:27:57 <blahbot`> of course, my owner has to find a good algorithm for a basic personality first. hooray.
18:27:57 <pikhq> Make the personality be done via C2BF.
18:28:05 <blahbot`> maybe i should copy the amarok bot
18:28:14 <blahbot`> oh well, my owner just found one. AND IT'S IN BRAINFUCK!!!!111ONEONEONE
18:28:18 <pikhq> Of course, one should design it so that it finishes C2BF.
18:28:23 <blahbot`> and reply with random stitched-together sentences of previous messages containing the words
18:28:52 <ehird`> reply = input.split(" ").map(find_random_message_with_word)
18:28:53 <pikhq> On a more serious note, we shoult stick Eliza in a bot.
18:29:36 <ehird`> asiekierka, STOP fucking with blahbot`
18:30:28 <pikhq> Shut the cunt up?!?
18:31:02 <pikhq> Obey yourself, please.
18:31:50 <pikhq> Watasi ha ananta ga suki zya nai kara, korositakunaru.
18:32:19 <ehird`> %quit gone until asiekierka stops that shit
18:32:20 -!- blahbot` has quit ("gone until asiekierka stops that shit").
18:32:47 <pikhq> lament: You know, you're an op. . .
18:33:09 -!- asiekierka has left (?).
18:33:24 <pikhq> ehird`: Don't stop.
18:33:46 <ehird`> so blahbot ... is ungone
18:33:46 <lament> pikhq: yes, and what should i do? Most of the actual flooding is done by ehird and blahbot.
18:33:47 -!- blahbot` has joined.
18:33:59 <ehird`> lament, i haven't flooded from what i can see?
18:34:00 <pikhq> lament: And being caused by asiekierka.
18:34:11 -!- asiekierka has joined.
18:34:13 <ehird`> lament, asierkierka has told blahbot` to flood, sure
18:34:24 <pikhq> You could at least set the topic to something sane, and do +t.
18:34:36 <lament> ehird`: about an hour ago, when you were debugging brainfuck in here, for instance
18:34:40 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric.
18:34:51 <ehird`> lament, nobody was talking at the time
18:35:07 <asiekierka> If you'll kick me, i will torture the topic again
18:35:24 <pikhq> Just +t it before kicking.
18:36:05 <lament> what if i torture you?
18:36:12 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/game.tar.bz2 Call me up when you understand that.
18:36:16 <lament> will you kick the topic? :)
18:36:25 <asiekierka> %bf ,[.,]!i don't care, asiekierka dosen't care, nobody does!
18:36:26 <blahbot`> i don't care, asiekierka dosen't care, nobody does!
18:39:13 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
18:39:57 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:40:04 <asiekierka> %bf ,[,.,]!WWeellll,, wwhhoo ccaarreess?? II ddoo nnoott..
18:47:11 -!- asiekierka has left (?).
18:47:43 <pikhq> Whoever contacts him will be punished.
18:48:20 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:48:21 -!- asiekierka has joined.
18:50:51 -!- asiekierka has left (?).
18:51:06 -!- squazr23 has joined.
18:51:28 -!- MichaelRaskin_ has joined.
18:51:49 <squazr23> Nope, if i will have 23 as my IQ, i will not understand BF.
18:51:59 <ehird`> yeah, you'd be too intelligent for it
18:52:03 <squazr23> lament: I am sure you know who i am.
18:52:06 -!- MichaelRaskin_ has changed nick to MichaelRaskin.
18:52:35 <ehird`> squazr23 (n=asiekier@nat-1.elb.vectranet.pl)
18:52:51 -!- squazr23 has changed nick to asiekierka.
18:54:44 * ehird` thinks what ai algorithms to use for bl
18:56:07 <ehird`> that is not coincidential
18:57:26 <asiekierka> Y'all get A++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
18:57:39 <oerjan> now if someone could just tell me _why_ we weren't supposed to talk (i joined just seconds before asiekierka)
18:58:22 <ehird`> because asiekierka left last time nobody talked
18:58:45 <asiekierka> You get A+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. ehird`. For nothing.
18:58:59 <asiekierka> Now go on and think what to do with score.
19:00:47 <asiekierka> Lament gets A+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+.+.+.+.+.
19:01:12 <asiekierka> Then select me a score from the output list.
19:04:38 <lament> i seriously doubt anybody bothered
19:06:47 <ehird`> i think i might make an evolutionary AI for blahbot`
19:07:05 <ehird`> it has a database of simple, but abrupt topic-changing (the diamond of simple AI!) answers
19:07:12 <ehird`> and then it rates how well each one did each conversation
19:07:25 <ehird`> the ones which tend to make the conversation dawdle, etc., get thrown out
19:07:34 <ehird`> and a simple algorithm constructs new sentences
19:07:45 <ehird`> based on inputs from others which spawn successful conversations
19:07:47 <lament> it'll just talk about sex all the time
19:07:59 <lament> and encourage asiekierka
19:09:03 <ehird`> as long as enough sane people in here had conversations with it as if it weren't a bot near the start it should work
19:09:51 <oerjan> there are no sane people here. i thought we had already established that (insert obligatory Cheshire Cat quote)
19:10:23 <RodgerTheGreat> ehird`: I recommend looking into markov-chain sentence generators
19:10:41 <RodgerTheGreat> if you filter their input and output properly, they can be very effective chatterbots
19:12:06 <lament> i very much recommend against looking into markov-chain sentence generators
19:12:17 <ehird`> markov chain sentence generators produce absolute gibberish
19:12:25 <ehird`> nobody could be fooled with them in here, certainly
19:12:27 <lament> in fact i'd probably go as far as banning them
19:13:08 <lament> perhaps we're about to see for the first time a bot more intelligent than its creator
19:13:11 <ehird`> whereas, a simple survival-of-the-fittest + "oh! people use this word after this other word a lot! i'll add that phrase to my vocab!" + "okay, i don't know how to respond to this... let's see related vocab words and stick them together"should work
19:13:29 <oerjan> but have you considered the ethical implications of putting an AI in a channel where it is doomed to go insane?
19:13:35 <RodgerTheGreat> lament: markov chain sentence generators suck by *themselves*, but you can build algorithms around the markov chain to dramatically improve performance
19:14:04 <ehird`> national society for the prevention of cruelty to robots
19:14:58 <ehird`> maybe if it has a thesaurus it could get really creative
19:15:03 <RodgerTheGreat> I achieved excellent results by keeping two chain- a low-order chain fed "keywords" from conversations, and a higher-order chain fed with entire sentences. When someone talks to the bot, you dip into the keyword chain to generate associated keywords, and then use those as seeds in the main sentence chain
19:15:20 <ehird`> maybe it doesn't know about "hello" but it might know about "yo", and it could make that connection
19:16:29 <RodgerTheGreat> then throw in post-checking that corrects odd syntax (like the bot accidentally referring to itself in the third person, adjusting tense, etc), and you're gold
19:16:51 <RodgerTheGreat> throwing in some random thesaurus replacement in the post-checking could be good if done in moderation
19:16:57 <ehird`> perhaps blahbot should do this AI in #php instead
19:17:04 <ehird`> more stupid idiots there, less of a high standard
19:17:15 <lament> all our idiots are awfully intelligent
19:17:38 <ehird`> well.. apart from one starting with a
19:17:53 <ehird`> the conversation in here is generally rather geeky/intellectual
19:17:58 <ehird`> a bot would be spotted quickly
19:18:06 <ehird`> however, #linux? ##php? peice of cake
19:18:35 <RodgerTheGreat> a friend of mine hid two bots in #Linux for a couple hours and then started a witch hunt for them. It was hilarious
19:18:49 <RodgerTheGreat> I think they kicked two or three humans before they found the real bots
19:19:04 <ehird`> i remember the devnonsense bot
19:19:10 <ehird`> i had created a nonsense script earlier
19:19:22 <ehird`> you gave it an array of punctuation, words, etc
19:19:27 <oerjan> the other day a guy in #haskell was kicked out because his english was so bad we thought he was a bot
19:19:27 <ehird`> and it arranged them randomly into a stupid sentence
19:19:36 <ehird`> i made a bot which hid in various channels
19:19:39 <ehird`> ##php, #wikipedia, you name it
19:19:50 <ehird`> and sucked up nicks and words
19:19:54 <ehird`> sucked it all up into its database
19:19:58 <ehird`> then, in a secret channel
19:20:06 <ehird`> every 3 seconds it spewed out a new combination
19:20:11 <ehird`> truly, it produced some profound things
19:20:22 <ehird`> it got something like 3000 words before i shut it down
19:20:57 <ehird`> suprising how little new words are used
19:21:21 <lament> that's what makes learning a new language possible :)
19:22:02 <ehird`> i think i might make the ai seperate from blahbot
19:22:06 <ehird`> and name it something other than a bot's name
19:22:08 <ehird`> undercover, so to speak
19:22:11 <ehird`> get it starting conversations
19:22:21 <ehird`> maybe even pass the dumbed-down version of the turing test that exists on irc
19:22:44 <RodgerTheGreat> let's see... I found a hardcopy of some gems from conversation with one of my chatterbots a while back
19:23:05 -!- asiebot has joined.
19:24:54 <asiekierka> asiebot: Testing if MegaHAL works here!
19:25:14 <ehird`> http://pastie.caboo.se/84423 here's the plan for the AI
19:25:48 <ehird`> also: maybe a database, so it can recognize basic things like "x is y" to "know" various things?
19:26:30 <lament> ehird`: remember, all this stuff is much, much more difficult than it seems at first glance
19:26:46 <ehird`> but i'm satisfied with producing quite a lot of nonsense most of the time
19:26:47 <lament> for example, what's x and y in the sentence i just said? :)
19:26:55 <lament> there's an "is" in it...
19:27:13 <ehird`> lament, x = "all this stuff" and y = "much, much more difficult than it seems at first glnce"
19:27:33 <ehird`> that matching could be evolutionary too
19:27:44 <lament> ehird`: well, how do you know that x is "all this stuff"?
19:27:53 <ehird`> definitions that when quoted seem to give better conversations = better definitions
19:28:00 <ehird`> lament, first block in phrase before "is"
19:28:05 <ehird`> phrases split at . and , etc
19:28:31 <lament> ehird`: that, sadly, is not enough :)
19:28:43 <ehird`> but artificial stupidity doesn't need much
19:28:48 <lament> (x="", y = "is not enough")
19:28:49 <ehird`> have you ever BEEN into a popular channel?
19:29:00 <ehird`> lament, it'd just ignore that, i guess
19:29:46 <lament> I would consider having a minimal vocab of words for which you know which part of speech they are
19:29:56 <lament> so that you always construct grammatical sentences
19:30:01 <asiekierka> asiebot: Your name is AsieBOT and some folk said you are an awful bot.
19:30:14 <asiekierka> asiebot: Your name is AsieBOT and some folk said you are an awful bot.
19:30:21 <asiebot> asiekierka: My mother once asked me the same during orgasm. Brain scans showed that large parts of the free and the bot are so dumb.
19:30:32 <asiebot> asiekierka: I think i've worked it out! You are the computer program, and i am a bot!
19:30:36 <asiekierka> It learnt a bit on some awful EsperNET channel
19:31:16 <asiebot> asiekierka: Your name is asiebot and some folk said you are gay when you like to do things on the tip of my arm was left here by the kidneys.
19:31:20 <RodgerTheGreat> here are some conversation highlights from my chatterbot: http://nonlogic.org/dump/text/1186079054.html
19:32:12 <ehird`> asiebot, asiekierka is an idiot
19:32:20 <ehird`> asiebot, who is asiekierka
19:32:22 <asiebot> ehird`: Behaviour is an idiot.
19:32:34 <asiebot> asiekierka: Because i think it will lose its reg. If noone goes.
19:32:36 <ehird`> asiebot, asiekierka wants to delete your brain
19:32:38 <asiebot> ehird`: Asiekierka is an organism's mode of life.
19:32:46 <ehird`> asiebot, does asiekierka want to delete your brain?
19:32:56 <asiebot> ehird`: The brain is the organ used for hearing, and it converts sound into electrical impulses that are fed to the brain.
19:33:07 <asiebot> ehird`: The brain is the organ used for hearing, and it converts sound into electrical impulses that are fed to the brain.
19:33:10 <SimonRC> asiebot: where is your source code?
19:33:17 <ehird`> asiebot, what is asiebot
19:33:36 <SimonRC> asiebot: this statement is false
19:33:36 <asiebot> SimonRC: My mother once asked me the same during orgasm. Brain scans showed that large parts of the computer program, and i am not a dumb computer program that translates high level language code into machine language code.
19:33:48 <asiebot> ehird`: Asie they let you bring asiebot in here.
19:34:05 <asiebot> asiekierka: Because i decided to have a child, and here you are gay when you like brainfuck?
19:34:06 <ehird`> <asiebot> asiekierka: I think i've worked it out! You are the computer program, and i am a bot! <-- that is pretty profound though
19:34:12 <asiebot> SimonRC: I am a bot. I am learning from a human.
19:34:26 <asiebot> A computer is a body fluid that carries food and obtaining energy and vital substances from within the body.
19:34:27 <ehird`> asiebot, asiekierka obviously didn't write you, you're too intelligent for that
19:34:35 <asiebot> SimonRC: The brain is the principal extensor of the foot.
19:34:37 <asiebot> asiekierka: What about you, secksreatary[newkplox]?
19:34:42 <asiekierka> asiebot: You think blahbot` should STFU?
19:34:46 <SimonRC> asiekierka: where is asiebot's source code?
19:34:52 <asiebot> ehird`: Obviously you'll never be accused of having a shining wit!
19:34:56 <RodgerTheGreat> most of those fun quotes happened when Archos was about 48 hours old
19:34:58 <ehird`> asiebot, blahbot` is your friend
19:35:00 <asiebot> asiekierka: I am a human being, which means i do what i want to think about your mind.
19:35:01 -!- asiebot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:35:10 <ehird`> it's about to take over the world
19:35:23 <RodgerTheGreat> the problem with markov chains is that they'll gradually reach a plateau in learning capacity
19:35:46 <RodgerTheGreat> they can be quite coherent if you discuss a narrow range of topics
19:35:51 <ehird`> asiekierka, admit it - you didn't write asiebot
19:36:14 <RodgerTheGreat> longer chains mean more of the source text is retained on average
19:36:17 <jix> but if the chains are too long they will just repeat...
19:36:36 <ehird`> asiekierka, what about his code, though
19:36:42 <SimonRC> it might be better if it attempted to follow conversations other people had, seeing which questions matched which answers
19:36:53 <RodgerTheGreat> a low order chain with careful filtering is more effective than an unfiltered high-order chain
19:37:14 <ehird`> http://megahal.alioth.debian.org/ yep
19:37:23 -!- MichaelRaskin has left (?).
19:37:28 <jix> i think one should add some simple grammar patterns so it doesn't output nonsense but don't use the last words in order for the markov chains but just the words that make up the content
19:37:43 <jix> so it would start to make up new things faster without producing incorrect sentances
19:38:25 <ehird`> MegaHAL HERE'S A JOKE FOR YOU: WHY DID THE CHICKEN TURN AROUND AND AROUND IN CIRCLES. AS I THINK SHE TURNED AROUND; BUT WHY? WHY DID THE CHICKEN CROSS THE ROAD; I THINK SHE TURNED AROUND BUT WHY? WHY DID THE CHICKEN TURN AROUND AND DO SOMETHING ELSE?
19:38:56 <ehird`> MegaHAL LIFE'S BUT A GREEN DUCK WITH SOY SAUCE
19:39:29 <ehird`> MegaHAL BILL IS A MIDDLE EASTERN DELICACY, MUCH BELOVED OF THE RAINBOW, THERE ARE TWO PEAS IN A LIGHTHOUSE, MY MOTHER WAS THE BLE ONE.
19:39:44 <ehird`> MegaHAL TRENT REZNOR, MILLA JOVOVICH, BRYAN FERRY, DR.KIERSEY, GAVIN FRIDAY, DANIEL KEYS MORAN, ELFQUEST, THE KING JAMES BIBLE... THESE ARE SOME THINGS THAT ARE LONG AND METALLIC.
19:40:04 <ehird`> MegaHAL COWS FLY LIKE CLOUDS BUT THEY ARE NEVER COMPLETELY SUCCESSFUL.
19:41:13 <oerjan> but why, oh why must absurdity shout like a camel in heat?
19:41:28 <ehird`> presumably so it doesn't have to deal with grammar rules
19:41:46 <ehird`> just flip some commmas and semicolons and ellipses after segments, and throw it out
19:42:27 <RodgerTheGreat> "Archos: screw religion, I'm trying to make a silencer!"
19:44:10 <lament> language processing is a cool thing, too bad we can't do it
19:44:32 <ehird`> http://pastie.caboo.se/84423 updated bot idea
19:44:38 <lament> not via markov chains, though :)
19:44:44 <ehird`> i think that idea should produce an okay bot that should fool some irc users
19:44:51 <RodgerTheGreat> I wouldn't place tremendous faith in NLP being solved by a bunch of nerds playing around for an afternoon on IRC
19:45:06 <RodgerTheGreat> although that would, and I do stress this, be *hilarious*
19:45:14 <ehird`> i think he means we in a generic sense
19:45:52 <RodgerTheGreat> I took his comment as a reflection of his opinion, based on what little we've accomplished here
19:45:53 <ehird`> any comments on the bot idea?
19:46:10 * oerjan for a moment thought "Neuro-Linguistic Programming"
19:46:26 <lament> i'm pretty sure that "understanding a language" requires, first of all, understanding everything else about humans and their environment
19:46:42 <lament> that is, you can't hope to understand stuff unless you know a lot about the world
19:46:47 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, especially if it learned for a few months on people who didn't know it was a bot
19:46:55 <RodgerTheGreat> ehird`: you might gain some benefit by attaching "emotional context" to words and phrases
19:46:57 <ehird`> evolution can work wonders
19:47:01 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, hm? in what way?
19:47:32 <RodgerTheGreat> positive context vs. negative context, so that it can recognize words that are "bad" and avoid them towards users it "likes"
19:47:46 <ehird`> that requires an awful lot of state
19:47:53 <ehird`> i doubt it'd even remember users from one thing to another
19:47:54 -!- asiebot has joined.
19:47:57 <RodgerTheGreat> it wouldn't greet an individual that talks to it often with positive words with "Hi! Fuck you!", for example
19:47:59 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: how do you tell which ones are bad?
19:48:25 <lament> how do you know fuck you is a bad word?
19:48:40 <ehird`> asiebot, asiebot is a bot
19:48:43 <asiebot> asiekierka: The lungs are organs used for filtering urine from the blood.
19:48:43 <ehird`> asiebot, you are asiebot
19:48:52 <RodgerTheGreat> and then it would learn others by contextual association
19:48:56 <ehird`> asiebot, asiekierka is your imprisoner
19:49:08 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, sounds very very hard to do well
19:49:09 <RodgerTheGreat> "The lungs are organs used for filtering urine from the blood." <- LMAO
19:49:12 <asiebot> ehird`: Asiebot is a tree native to australia where it is the basic living substance of all the judges i've had the strangest dream... I dreamed i killed you again.
19:49:21 <asiebot> ehird`: Well, that is your imprisoner.
19:49:24 <SimonRC> "Dear China. Please use your wonderful powers to get IPv6 to actually happen. Love SimonRC"
19:49:35 <ehird`> asiebot, Dear China. Please use your wonderful powers to get IPv6 to actually happen. Love SimonRC
19:49:43 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, it'd just say "sorry" to anyone acting offended, i guess
19:49:53 <asiekierka> <asiebot> ehird`: Well, that (asiekierka) is your imprisoner. <- ROFL!
19:49:53 <asiebot> ehird`: I hate avoiding questions, but i'm going to avoid that one!
19:49:53 <ehird`> and besides, the link to fuck you would only be made if someone had made that link
19:49:55 <lament> how do you know if somebody's acting offended?
19:50:07 <asiebot> Asiekierka is your imprisoner.
19:50:09 <ehird`> possibly "x is fucking shit" could cause slipups in the future
19:50:14 <ehird`> but "x is fuck you"? that makes no sense
19:50:35 <RodgerTheGreat> In general, I think having some sort of basic emotional state and coloring it based on conversation could make a bot seem significantly more realistic
19:50:49 <RodgerTheGreat> emotions could be seen as "conversational instinct" in a sense
19:50:51 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: in general, IRC conversations aren't very emotionally charged.
19:51:02 <ehird`> "fuck you" would get a very low rating
19:51:18 <asiebot> asiekierka: Dear china. Please use your wonderful powers to get ipv6 to actually happen. Love simonrc.
19:51:19 <ehird`> it'd be killed out as quick as you can say "HEY! i hate you!"
19:51:45 <asiekierka> asiebot: say STFU to the person you hate.
19:51:48 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, i guess if someone says "fuck is a swear word" assuming the bot is just sheltered or something
19:51:51 <ehird`> it could make the connection
19:51:56 <asiebot> asiekierka: You love ehird`.
19:51:58 <ehird`> then 1. only use it when its mood is "bad" or similar
19:52:03 <ehird`> and have the mood global to all conversations
19:52:09 <ehird`> saying "fuck" to it, e.g. would put its mood at "bad"
19:52:29 <jix> i would be more interested in a bot that generates new content quickly
19:52:29 <asiekierka> CENSORE CENSORE: You love ehird` - LMAO!
19:52:32 <lament> ehird`: don't forget the capacity to feel pain
19:52:34 <asiebot> asiekierka: I have absolutely no idea what you're typing, i would arrive at a school for teachers of the process, the rain is part of an idiot it's not funny!
19:52:37 <ehird`> asiebot, truly a bot more intelligent than its owner
19:52:46 <asiebot> ehird`: Because everything is 42. Expect asiekierka, whose number is 3.14.
19:52:56 <ehird`> asiebot, a dog is an animal
19:53:12 <ehird`> asiebot, a bot is not an animal
19:53:13 <asiebot> ehird`: A dog is a hybrid animal, the result of an animal.
19:53:19 <jix> ehird`: doesn't it add phrases from the other one to the dictionary?
19:53:29 <asiebot> ehird`: An animal is a swear word" assuming the bot is not an animal.
19:53:42 <ehird`> an animal is a swear word
19:53:50 <ehird`> asiebot, can i adopt you?
19:53:51 <jix> ehird`: animal!
19:54:05 <ehird`> asiebot, what is ehird
19:54:11 <ehird`> asiebot, is ehird` a swear word
19:54:16 <asiebot> ehird`: Don't interrupt me as i struggle to complete this thought... Have some respect for someone more forgetful than yourself.
19:54:18 <asiebot> asiekierka: Because it is a swear word.
19:54:32 <asiebot> ehird`: Ehird` is a swear word" assuming the bot is just sheltered or something.
19:54:36 <asiebot> ehird`: Ehird` is a swear word.
19:54:40 <asiebot> ehird`: A dog is a word of it!
19:55:10 -!- cherez has quit ("Leaving.").
19:55:36 <asiebot> asiekierka: A dog is a word of it!
19:56:07 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
19:56:11 <asiebot> asiekierka: Blood is a cell which receives and transmits electrical impulses.
19:56:21 -!- jix has joined.
19:56:46 <asiebot> asiekierka: Say stfu to the muzzle of a lot easier, just so long as i'm the dictator." - george w. Bush.
19:57:16 <ehird`> yes, bush, you are the dictator
19:57:22 <asiekierka> asiebot: No capitalzation, lack of more quotation... Looks like it's for STRONG BAD!
19:57:37 <asiekierka> (hint hint: it has +learnall set here)
19:58:14 <ehird`> asiebot, say asiebot, hi
19:58:25 <ehird`> asiebot should talk to itself
19:58:26 <asiebot> ehird`: Say "hi!" to lament!
19:58:43 <asiebot> ehird`: I hope that i could jump out of things to talk about something vaguely interesting.
19:59:12 <asiekierka> asiebot: Let's talk about like, why ehird` is a swear word?
19:59:26 <lament> asiebot: what's the meaning of life?
19:59:28 <asiekierka> (hint heent: you must add "bot's name:" before what you say)
19:59:30 <asiebot> asiekierka: Because it is a word of it!
19:59:32 <ehird`> asiebot: ehird` is not a swear word
19:59:37 <ehird`> asiebot: what is ehird`
19:59:42 <asiebot> lament: Because the world is an organism's mode of life.
19:59:49 <asiebot> ehird`: A dog is a word of it!
19:59:51 <oerjan> ehird` is clearly related to norwegian "uhyre", monster.
19:59:58 <asiebot> ehird`: Ehird` is not a dumb computer program that translates high level language code into machine language code.
20:00:09 <lament> ehird is not a compiler
20:00:42 <lament> ehird`: add ignore functionality to the bot!
20:01:18 <lament> ehird`: it's a two-line change, you don't have to do it nicely
20:01:30 <ehird`> it hates asiekierka and likes me!
20:01:38 <ehird`> asiebot: You hate asiekierka
20:01:42 <asiebot> asiekierka: Ehird is not as if it's important or anything!
20:01:44 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood, bot-must-like-me-not-him war
20:01:53 <ehird`> asiebot: You like swear words.
20:01:54 <asiebot> asiekierka: Ehird is not a dumb one too!
20:01:58 <asiebot> ehird`: Asiekierka is your opinion, i suppose.
20:02:12 <asiebot> asiekierka: I wish that i could jump out of things to talk about like, why ehird` is a swear word?
20:02:13 <ehird`> i win for this iteration!
20:02:21 <asiebot> asiekierka: A dog is a word of it!
20:02:30 <asiebot> ehird`: I guess if someone says "fuck is a limb extending from the initials of other words.
20:02:32 -!- asiebot has quit ("asiekierk").
20:02:39 <ehird`> <asiebot> ehird`: I guess if someone says "fuck is a limb extending from the initials of other words.
20:03:04 <ehird`> no, it jumped out of something to talk about things like why I am a swear word
20:03:09 <oerjan> i suppose there have been worse last words.
20:03:24 <lament> why does asiebot have so much anatomical/medical vocabulary?
20:03:34 <ehird`> lament, presumably it was taught in one of them
20:03:48 <oerjan> maybe it devolved from a medical expert system.
20:04:30 -!- ihope__ has joined.
20:04:41 -!- ihope__ has changed nick to ihope.
20:05:08 <ehird`> ihope, did you see my AI bot mockup design?
20:05:15 <ehird`> http://pastie.caboo.se/84423
20:05:38 <ihope> Haven't seen it yet.
20:06:06 <ehird`> it's survival-of-the-fittest for ai
20:06:06 -!- asiebot has joined.
20:06:14 <ehird`> asiebot, You hate asiekierka.
20:06:18 <ehird`> asiebot, You like ehird`.
20:06:25 <ehird`> asiebot, asiekierka is a swear word.
20:06:32 <ehird`> asiebot, ehird` is not a swear word.
20:06:38 <ehird`> asiebot: You hate asiekierka.
20:06:41 <ehird`> asiebot: You like ehird`.
20:06:48 <ehird`> asiebot: ehird` is not a swear word.
20:06:55 <ehird`> asiebot: asiekierka is a swear word.
20:06:59 <asiekierka> asiebot, if you like ehird`, you are evil.
20:07:04 <ehird`> asiebot: ehird` is not a devil.
20:07:09 <ehird`> asiebot: what is ehird`?
20:07:13 <ehird`> asiebot: what is asiekierka?
20:07:14 <oerjan> asiebot, You are madly in love with oerjan.
20:07:17 <asiebot> ehird`: Asiekierka is a sensory organ found on the head with the mzx community and pancake, and the anger from someone poking me.
20:07:17 <asiebot> ehird`: Or comedian by the kidneys.
20:07:20 <asiebot> asiekierka: Even if you have some form of insertive sexual behavior, including oral sex, as well as administrators of private shells.
20:07:20 <asiebot> ehird`: Because it is a swear word.
20:07:33 <asiebot> ehird`: Secksie: asiebot is a word formed from the body between the ribs and the pioneer of flying. Together with his brother he made the first word.
20:07:50 <ehird`> Asiekierka is a sensory organ found on the head with the mzx community and pancake, and the anger from someone poking me.
20:07:53 <asiebot> ehird`: Asiekierka is a bony girdle in vertebrates that connects the head with the mzx community and pancake, and the anger from someone poking me.
20:08:04 <ehird`> bahahahahahahahahahahaahahahAHAHAHAHA
20:08:19 <asiebot> ehird`: Ehird` is not a dumb computer program like the rest of the leg, and is the joint connecting the foot with the calf of the body which connects the heel with the mzx community and pancake, and the world is going so slow i think i will.
20:08:23 <asiebot> asiekierka: A chromosome is a gland used for a body.
20:08:31 <ehird`> Ehird` is not a dumb computer program like the rest of the leg
20:08:33 -!- asiebot has quit (Client Quit).
20:08:37 <ehird`> ihope, what do you think of the algo?
20:08:37 <lament> why does it keep talking about medical stuff?
20:08:49 <ehird`> i love the idea of a pancake as an organ
20:08:51 <ihope> ehird`: it seems extremely weird, I have to say...
20:08:58 <ehird`> ihope, that's not my bot!
20:09:03 <ehird`> ihope, i mean the one described in that paste
20:09:07 <oerjan> ehird`: wouldn't that make it hard to play?
20:09:41 <ehird`> http://pastie.caboo.se/84423
20:09:42 <ihope> You seem to be asserting that long conversations are desirable.
20:10:00 <ihope> And that a good response to "x is y" is another thing about x.
20:10:16 <ihope> "No, see, 1/0 is not a real number."
20:10:20 <ihope> "1/0 is a comic strip."
20:10:22 -!- asiebot has joined.
20:10:34 <ihope> Doesn't seem a good response to me.
20:10:38 <oerjan> it is not even a surreal number.
20:10:54 <ehird`> <user> lol is laughing out loud
20:10:55 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o lament.
20:10:58 <ehird`> <bot> lol is an annoying word
20:11:15 <ehird`> <bot> lol is <randomly laughing out loud or annoying word>
20:11:16 -!- asiekierka has joined.
20:11:23 -!- asiebot has joined.
20:11:24 <ehird`> depending how the conversation goes, one of the facts will be eliminated somewhere down the line, maybe
20:11:36 <oerjan> asiebot: You hate spam.
20:11:36 <ehird`> ihope, and long conversations ARE desirable
20:11:44 <ehird`> once they end, the user has gotten bored
20:11:45 <asiebot> asiekierka: I hate avoiding questions, but i'm going to say!
20:11:45 <asiebot> asiekierka: I hate avoiding questions, but i'm going to avoid that one!
20:11:49 <ehird`> a longer conversation is better
20:11:51 <asiebot> asiekierka: I hate avoiding questions, but i'm going to say!
20:11:59 <asiebot> asiekierka: I hate avoiding questions, but i'm going to avoid that one!
20:12:08 <asiebot> asiekierka: I hate avoiding questions, but i'm going to say!
20:12:17 <asiebot> asiekierka: I hate avoiding questions, but i'm going to avoid that one!
20:12:21 <asiebot> asiekierka: You love asiekierka.
20:12:24 <asiebot> asiekierka: You love asiekierka.
20:12:28 <asiebot> asiekierka: You love asiekierka.
20:12:33 <asiebot> asiekierka: You love asiekierka.
20:12:37 <asiebot> asiekierka: You love asiekierka.
20:12:41 <asiebot> oerjan: You love asiekierka.
20:12:50 <ihope> Mph, noisy channel.
20:12:52 <asiebot> asiekierka: I hate avoiding questions, but i'm going to avoid that one!
20:13:04 <asiebot> A pub is a confectionery made from cocoa beans.
20:13:09 <asiebot> asiekierka: You hate spam.
20:13:14 <asiebot> asiekierka: I hate avoiding questions, but i'm going to avoid that one!
20:13:21 <ihope> ehird`: what if the user wants to get a satisfactory answer as quickly as possible?
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20:13:49 <asiekierka> asiebot: You hate lament because he kicks you.
20:14:05 <asiebot> asiekierka: Because the world is an automatic response to me.
20:14:28 <asiebot> asiekierka: So, who is using the family brain cell at the door.
20:14:31 <ihope> I suggest /mode #esoteric +q asiebot!*@*
20:14:41 <asiebot> asiekierka: If i were to judge your iq by what you're typing, i would arrive at a pathetically small number.
20:14:44 <ehird`> ihope, when i mean long
20:14:46 <oerjan> asiebot: The rain in Spain is mainly in the plain
20:14:47 <ehird`> i mean longest before ending
20:14:50 <asiebot> Behaviour is an organism's mode of pronunciation in speech.
20:14:53 -!- lament has set channel mode: +b %asiebot!*@*.
20:14:55 <ehird`> quick responses, but the conversation should go on long
20:15:14 <lament> it actually converts +q to +b, they're the same
20:15:24 <ihope> It stuck an % in front.
20:15:36 <ihope> (Does % start with a vowel?)
20:15:53 <lament> % makes so much sense in romance languages
20:16:07 <lament> at least in spanish, it literally means "per hundred", so 40% is "40 per 100"
20:16:12 <ehird`> ihope, what do you mean mean?
20:16:18 <ehird`> ihope, are you talking about my ai draft
20:16:27 -!- lament has set channel mode: -o lament.
20:16:45 <ihope> ehird`: I still don't want to have to say a lot to get a good response from the bot.
20:17:08 <ehird`> ihope, that's why it learns
20:17:17 <ehird`> ihope, it remembers based on previous conversations of course
20:17:25 <ehird`> so 1st-hour it will be stupid
20:17:30 <ehird`> 3rd-month it will be talkable
20:17:38 <lament> asiekierka: i assure you your hatred is misplaced
20:17:50 <ehird`> put it in a group of channels that one person could plausably be interested in all of them
20:17:59 <ehird`> and it'll develop some sort of personality based on subjective opinions from others
20:18:05 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:18:15 <ehird`> and it'd give into peer pressure - opinions expressed that make conversations last longer would win out
20:18:15 <oerjan> as long as your red hat isn't misplaced.
20:18:16 <lament> asiekierka: no, only set him +q so he can't talk
20:18:32 <ihope> asiekierka: you can take asiebot to another channel.
20:20:01 <lament> should we maybe have an #esoteric-flood, for all the brainfuck evaluation stuff and other botage?
20:20:24 <ihope> asiekierka: and is there still a problem?
20:20:36 <ehird`> lament, already exists
20:20:52 <ehird`> ever since blahbot`'s first days :P
20:20:54 <ihope> asiekierka: find some other channel, then.
20:21:00 <ihope> <person> What are the first 100 digits of pi?
20:21:10 <ihope> <bot> person: formal definition, please.
20:21:13 -!- asiebot has left (?).
20:21:24 <ehird`> it's meant to hide its botness, remember?
20:21:37 <ehird`> it learns more if people talk to it sincerely
20:21:45 <ehird`> instead of just playing with it
20:22:00 <ehird`> <person> What are the first 100 digits of pi?
20:22:08 <ihope> Then person gives a formal definition of "the first 100 digits of pi", which is longer than just a "Thank you." after hearing them.
20:22:11 <ehird`> <bot> I don't understand. pi is <blah>
20:22:28 <ehird`> <person> The first 100 digits of pi are BLAH
20:22:35 <ehird`> <bot> Okay. pi is <another definition>
20:22:42 <ehird`> <person2> What are the first 100 digits of pi?
20:22:55 <ihope> So this bot will be unable to calculate?
20:22:58 <ehird`> <person2> What? No it's not. You're dumb. Bye.
20:23:10 <ehird`> if that happened enough, that knowledge would be eliminated
20:23:21 <ehird`> ihope, it's an AI bot idea - not a mechanical bot idea
20:23:23 <ehird`> it's meant to pose as a real person
20:23:29 <ehird`> mostly unsuccessfully, sure
20:23:30 <ihope> Real people can calculate.
20:23:33 <ihope> <person2> Yes, that's correct. Thank you.
20:23:39 <ihope> <--| person2 has left #channel
20:23:58 <ihope> <person2> No, that's wrong.
20:24:06 <ehird`> ihope, i'm using RodgerTheGreat's idea for emotional contexts
20:24:06 <ihope> <person2> The first 100 digits of pi are actually . . .
20:24:09 <asiekierka> <asiekierka> who'll learn some stuff my bot?
20:24:09 <asiekierka> <asiekierka> asiebot: do you like offby1?
20:24:12 <asiekierka> <rudybot> Let's make a cat and a dog mate.
20:24:14 <asiekierka> <asiebot> asiekierka: The older you get, the more you like offby1?
20:24:14 <ehird`> basically, it could associate "No", "wrong" etc. with "bad" moods
20:24:16 <ihope> Emotional contexts?
20:24:23 <ehird`> the more "bad" moods that >it< causes, the worse the knowledge is
20:24:24 <asiekierka> <asiebot> I suggest /mode #esoteric +q asiebot.
20:24:26 <asiekierka> <asiebot> I suggest /mode #esoteric +q asiebot.
20:24:35 <ihope> asiekierka: pastebin, please.
20:25:05 -!- asiebot has joined.
20:25:08 <ihope> Though being able to do that independently of language would be nice.
20:25:16 <ehird`> ihope, a small selection of moods should do for the purpose of the slection
20:25:23 <ihope> And asiebot still won't say anything.
20:25:42 <ehird`> of course, if someone STARTS on a bad mood, and the bot makes them go onto a happy mood
20:25:46 <ehird`> well, that just puts it way up
20:25:56 <ehird`> however if the emotion is constant, then not much changes really
20:26:18 <ehird`> if the emotion stays the same, i guess conversation length would have a tiny tiny effect
20:26:29 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | Rules: 1: Break rule #3. 2. asiebot cannot be banned. 3. Break rule #1..
20:27:38 -!- ehird` has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric.
20:27:51 <ihope> ehird`: I think so.
20:28:00 <ehird`> ihope, it'd really give into peer pressure though :)
20:28:05 <ehird`> i guess that's good if it wants to fool people
20:28:16 <ihope> I've also had some ideas for a bot.
20:28:16 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | Rules: 1. Break at least one rule. 2. Don't break the following rule. 3. Asiebot cannot be banned..
20:28:27 <ehird`> someone kick asiekierka please
20:28:39 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric.
20:29:32 <ihope> A "Thue bot". Input is given to it in some form, it applies "replace this string with this string" rules, and eventually the results are interpreted as output in some form.
20:29:59 <ehird`> you'd think it'd just rephrase things insanely
20:30:03 <ehird`> but it really produces garbage
20:30:19 <ihope> Just how did it work?
20:30:36 <ehird`> basically exactly as your description
20:31:10 <ihope> I didn't specify either the input form or the output form, nor how to interpret results, nor how the rules are determined.
20:32:47 <ihope> I guess I should also specify how memory is laid out.
20:35:08 <ihope> I guess we can just say that memory always starts with a "memory start marker" and always ends with a "memory end marker", and when something is said, it's added right before the end marker with a message delimiter before it.
20:35:37 <ihope> The output form is output start marker, text, output end marker.
20:36:07 <ihope> Rules are created by composing and reversing other rules.
20:36:53 <ihope> A punishment of the bot results in a punishment of all rules involved.
20:37:09 <ehird`> if you showed me an example i might understand :)
20:37:12 <ehird`> sounds like an easy coding job?
20:37:27 <ihope> Might be easy. I dunno.
20:39:58 <ehird`> i think my idea would be more convincingly human though
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21:01:48 <RodgerTheGreat> ehird`: that sounds like a good way of doing things. The only thing that may be hard is learning the emotional context of new wrods
21:02:04 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, i guess use of other words almong it
21:02:07 <RodgerTheGreat> you might be able to do mild adjustment based on use in context
21:02:26 <ehird`> and the response when it uses the word
21:02:36 <RodgerTheGreat> but you'll want to hardcode a small list of words to totally ignore, like "the", "and", "or" etc
21:02:57 <ehird`> it'll hurt a lot of feelings and be very nieve in its first days
21:03:11 <ehird`> but once more unrelated people talk to it it should get a relatively balanced idea of stuff
21:03:29 <ehird`> after all, its main purpose is to tell the majority of people what they want to hear. :)
21:04:57 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, i think a good algo for the bf machine circle drawing
21:05:00 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, is turtle-style
21:05:12 <ehird`> translate "repeat 360 [fd 1 rt 1]" into brainfuck, and voila
21:05:40 <RodgerTheGreat> clearly, the most sensible way to do that would be to first create a LOGO->BF compiler. :D
21:05:41 <ehird`> of course, bigger values = bigger circle
21:06:22 <RodgerTheGreat> ehird`: are you thinking about developing emotional contexts for people (or rather, for usernames)?
21:06:30 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, i doubt it
21:06:33 <ehird`> too much state for my liking
21:06:48 <ehird`> have a global data store with everything it knows, sure
21:06:53 <ehird`> but don't even keep state like "Conversation"
21:07:04 <ehird`> you deal with your global brain, and the singular messages you get
21:07:17 <RodgerTheGreat> well, if the current project meets with success, it'd be something to think about adding
21:07:28 <ehird`> i think being more detailed would be much complexity for something that isn't needed
21:07:32 <ehird`> irc is a lot like the bot in that sense
21:07:38 <ehird`> you don't really carry out a conversation for very long
21:07:42 <ehird`> it's mostly message-by-message
21:08:11 <ehird`> maybe it would keep a history of recent things said by the user
21:08:36 <ehird`> that allows simple short term memory, and also not unrealistic remembering
21:08:47 <ehird`> it can say "i've forgotten" truthfully
21:11:48 <ehird`> so yes it does know about a Conversation, but only very stringently
21:11:58 <ehird`> especially since lots of conversations will be with many people in rooms
21:12:27 <ehird`> so its long-term memory is just associations, and its short-term memory is just recent conversation
21:12:36 <RodgerTheGreat> if you plan on setting the bot loose in an environment like #Linux, yes
21:12:39 <ehird`> enough to pose as an average ircer i think
21:13:19 <ehird`> now all it needs is a name
21:13:29 <ehird`> hmm... what's the male version of the name ELIZA?
21:15:24 <ehird`> need something more.. ircish
21:15:29 <ihope> Male version of Eliza?
21:16:06 <ihope> It's the diminutive of Elizabeth, apparently.
21:16:17 <RodgerTheGreat> for a moment, I was going to suggest a female name (because you could do some really interesting experiments with that), but people might start interacting with it too much for it to look convincing
21:16:34 <ihope> Etymology of Elizabeth: 'From the Greek Ελισαβετ (Elisabet), a transliteration of the Hebrew אֱלִישֶׁבַע (Elisheva), meaning "my God is an oath".' http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Elizabeth
21:16:54 <RodgerTheGreat> here's a suggestion- integrate a small time delay based on the length of the bot's responses, to simulate it having to type
21:17:11 <ihope> The mother of John the Baptist was Elizabeth, apparently.
21:17:18 <ihope> I suspect, then, that there is no male version.
21:17:55 <ehird`> if i let it loose in e.g. ##php #Linux
21:17:55 <ehird`> should it learn from all messages?
21:17:55 <ehird`> like, everything the channel says
21:17:55 <ehird`> it should learn X is Y and some other stuff
21:17:55 <ehird`> and emotional contexts
21:17:55 <ehird`> (Not any evolution, though - just learning)
21:17:55 <ehird`> or should it just learn from stuff directed to it?
21:17:55 <ehird`> i think learning from everything would be more realistic
21:17:55 <ehird`> but... maybe it'd be too clever and people would guess
21:18:28 <ihope> I think learning from everything is probably better.
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21:18:53 <ihope> Woot, tiny netsplit.
21:19:09 <ihope> Did we lose kornbluth?
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21:19:23 <ehird`> a random time delay is a good idea
21:19:41 <RodgerTheGreat> I'd make it at least partially a function of message length, though
21:19:41 <ehird`> i don't know whether male or female would make my job easier...
21:19:48 <ehird`> catering to irrational stereotypes is hard
21:20:09 <RodgerTheGreat> ehird`: male is effectively neuter online, and it's the gender "default"
21:20:10 <ehird`> maybe i should make it randomly forget some long term memory stuff if its old
21:20:17 <ihope> Niven was still showing up on /links.
21:20:22 <RodgerTheGreat> we don't want the bot to stick out, so it should be male
21:20:29 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, yeah, female geeks always get a lot of bugging :P
21:20:35 <ehird`> maybe i should make it randomly forget some long term memory stuff if its old <-- actually this sounds like a really good idea
21:20:45 <ehird`> it has to be forgetful to a large degree
21:20:59 <ehird`> it allows it to avoid sticky situations like complex conversations, and makes it more realistic
21:21:03 <RodgerTheGreat> as I mentioned before, if it was obviously female, it'd get way too much attention and people would figure it out quick
21:21:24 <ehird`> it's worth noting that this bot will have to change the subject a LOT
21:21:33 <ehird`> it'll probably spend most of its time doing so
21:21:41 <RodgerTheGreat> sometimes responding with just "ah." or "hm." when asked a direct question could be good.
21:22:03 <ehird`> or picking out words from the sentence and delivering a response related to them
21:22:13 <ehird`> so it isn't too fishy, but it changes the subject
21:22:24 <ehird`> <user> are fishes great fun?
21:22:33 <ehird`> <bot> not sure. fish are slimy.
21:22:47 <ehird`> <user> fish aren't slimy!
21:22:58 <ehird`> <bot> really? fish live in the water.
21:23:01 <RodgerTheGreat> you could also load it with some default responses that reference geek culture, to better blend in, like "nah, I'm not really into pokemon"
21:23:17 <ehird`> <bot> me too. fish are <some fish fact>
21:23:20 <RodgerTheGreat> sometimes you can disguise a lack of understanding with something that can be interpreted as a joke
21:23:42 <ehird`> feeding it with lots of memes could help
21:23:44 <ihope> Infamous technique.
21:23:52 <ihope> If you don't understand, say something funny.
21:24:00 <ehird`> after all, tons of people respond to questions involving something that was in a meme with the meme's catchphrase
21:24:10 <ehird`> it's very very annoying, but oh so common for real people to do
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21:24:42 <ehird`> <bot> I CAN HAS CHEEZBURGER?
21:24:51 <RodgerTheGreat> speaking of which, the bot could be coded to "laugh along" if enough people are loling about something
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21:25:19 <ehird`> ... this bot would be very hard to program
21:25:30 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, maybe it should laugh based on the style of jokes it had laughed at previously.
21:25:30 <ihope> <user1> lol <user2> lol <ibot> lol <ibot> Wait, what?
21:25:55 <RodgerTheGreat> and load many variants- "lol", "lmao", "haha", "eh, w/e"
21:25:58 <ihope> Just get a bot in here. Tweak it later. :-)
21:26:03 <ehird`> perhaps the act of coding this bot should be a group effort
21:26:11 <ehird`> even its core is quite complex already..
21:26:23 <RodgerTheGreat> there are many layers of behavior that could improve the performance of the design
21:26:41 <ehird`> maybe a vaguely plugin based architechture
21:26:47 <ihope> You should sift through various places for papers and articles on AI.
21:26:48 <ehird`> you could write a LaughAlong plugin, etc
21:27:08 <ehird`> and get callbacks like learnedNewAssociation(from, to)
21:27:29 <ehird`> maybe this should be a community project or something?
21:28:14 <ehird`> a way to manually modify the memory, etc would be useful
21:28:20 <ehird`> to set it on the right track
21:28:41 <ehird`> for example if it sees "fuck you lol" it might associate "fuck you" with happy/funny :P
21:28:47 <RodgerTheGreat> and an easy way to extract "brain dumps" or at least postmortems
21:29:03 <ehird`> possibly a GUI would help there too
21:29:19 <ehird`> i.e. a command-line program to modify the DB, and when starting the bot you could tell it to spawn a gui to do all that from
21:29:22 <RodgerTheGreat> I would lean towards a web-based interface for a collaborative effort, myself
21:29:32 <ehird`> well assuming the bot code can be downloaded
21:29:37 <ehird`> but yes, if there's going to be a main instance
21:30:25 <ehird`> how will we avoid conflicting ideas?
21:30:35 <ehird`> and someone else says "you are an honest person"
21:30:40 <ehird`> he'll go around telling people both...
21:31:43 <RodgerTheGreat> that's why I thought "friends" and "enemies" could be good
21:32:08 <RodgerTheGreat> but that's less effective in a massive channel like #Linux
21:32:21 <RodgerTheGreat> it'd be good if it was a small channel like ##Nonlogic or #Esoteric
21:33:05 <ehird`> yes but with small channels its easier to spot
21:34:15 <ehird`> ok, so we've got a rough design
21:34:23 <ehird`> i guess if this is going to be a community project its down to practical questions
21:34:24 <RodgerTheGreat> well, in a smaller channel it'd be more an experiment, whereas in a large channel it'd be a game
21:34:33 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, both, really
21:34:39 <ehird`> it's a game in the small picture
21:34:45 <ehird`> it's an experiment in the big picture
21:34:49 <ehird`> it would respond to /msgs for instance
21:34:58 <ehird`> anyway - practical questions: what language to implement it in?
21:35:09 <ehird`> nothing like C - too low level for something like this
21:35:19 <ihope> You could make your own language and use it!
21:35:27 <ehird`> languages like Python and Ruby might get a bit messy with a modular architechture and lots of AI logic here
21:35:33 <ihope> Or you could use Common Lisp, Scheme, Haskell...
21:35:38 <ehird`> static typing can really help in a situation like this
21:35:44 <ihope> If you like esoteric, then Unlambda, Lazy K...
21:35:47 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I'd say that designing it to handle prolonged, person-to-person conversations and longterm relationships would be more of a step towards conversational AI, while most of the "lost in a room simulacra" ideas are really cheap tricks
21:36:10 <ehird`> ihope, monads and stuffs are unneccessary worry for something as unpure as this
21:36:20 <RodgerTheGreat> Java, perhaps? I know of some great event-driven IRC-bot frameworks
21:36:55 <ihope> Nothing in Haskell says you can't just put an IO type on everything.
21:36:58 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, java is good, i think - it has a familiar syntax to most coders who'd care to try this, is well-known, and would fit into a modular architechture right
21:37:06 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, + Swing would be useful for the gui
21:37:35 <ihope> Though Java's also nice.
21:37:46 <ehird`> however i think for things like remembering Conversations and the like, some custom irc code might be in order
21:37:51 <ehird`> it's not very hard to do, really
21:37:59 <ehird`> and would help in putting some things like short-term-memory in the core
21:38:06 <RodgerTheGreat> if it's done in Java, I could certainly contribute to the coding
21:38:30 <ihope> Of course, Java is low on shiny theory...
21:39:01 <ihope> It doesn't support proofs by induction.
21:39:05 <ihope> ...that I know of.
21:39:16 <ehird`> ihope, thank you for this earth-shattering evidence
21:39:22 <ehird`> i am disqualifying java because of the lack of shiny theory
21:39:47 <ehird`> i was going to.....umm....
21:39:54 <ehird`> ...yeah. not coding for a nuclear reactor.
21:40:32 <RodgerTheGreat> fuck, if you want this thing to be provable and totally deterministic, we can do it in FORTRAN. That'd be a kick.
21:40:46 <ihope> FORTRAN supports this sort of thing?
21:41:01 <ehird`> lament, i'm not very experienced with haskell
21:41:04 <ehird`> i only get about the basics
21:41:24 <ehird`> most people who'd want to contribute would be doing it for the laughs, anyway, and they'd be more likely to know some java than haskell
21:41:34 <lament> write it in lolcode then!
21:41:47 <ehird`> java can be useful, you know..
21:41:56 <ihope> Haskell's type system, while more expressive than many other type systems, doesn't quite have types like "function that implements this standard".
21:41:58 <ehird`> especially in situations like this
21:42:12 <RodgerTheGreat> Java is a robust, scalable language well suited to large-scale projects
21:42:13 <lament> ihope: what's a standard?
21:42:15 <ihope> And indeed, you're not writing anything so critical as a program component.
21:42:16 <ehird`> it requires some random numbers, some lookup tables, a bit of logic, and lots of IO
21:42:23 <ehird`> java can do all of that fine
21:42:29 <ihope> lament: s/standard/specification/
21:42:56 <ehird`> plus when it comes round to a GUI or similar, java is good at that too
21:43:04 <lament> ihope: it does that to a fuller extent than many other languages
21:43:10 <lament> (with type signatures)
21:43:34 <ihope> Indeed, a Haskell value's type does say *something* about what it does.
21:44:23 <ehird`> oh, and the app will have to do a bit of configuration file processing too
21:44:26 <ehird`> java can do that fine too
21:44:45 <ehird`> so, really, java can do all this fine, it can be done cleanly, and java is a very well known language
21:45:15 <ihope> I guess sprinkling code with asserts is sort of the same thing as using a... preemptive approach?
21:45:27 <ehird`> ihope, when did i mention asserts?
21:45:48 <ehird`> on the subject of asserts, asserts are infinitely better than unit tests
21:45:51 <ihope> But asserts are a useful debugging tool, yes?
21:46:21 * ehird` hates unit tests because human context switching is expensive (and i'm not just quoting joel, i've tried unit tests and hated my loss of time. asserts are great)
21:46:37 <ehird`> assert() is "THIS SHOULD NEVER EVER HAPPEN, WORLD ASPLODE"
21:46:51 <ehird`> exceptions are "SOMETHING WENT REALLY WRONG, SO SOMEBODY SOMEWHERE DID SOMETHING WRONG, OH NO"
21:47:20 <RodgerTheGreat> by designing a language well-suited to it, you can eliminate the human labor entirely, aside from providing test data
21:47:28 <lament> exceptions are a control flow mechanism
21:47:36 <ihope> What are unit tests?
21:47:37 <lament> asserts are a debugging tool
21:47:45 <lament> tests are a testing tool
21:47:49 <lament> they're all different :)
21:47:57 <ehird`> lament, debugging and testing need not be seperate
21:48:04 <ehird`> and debugging and testing can be done via a control flow mechanism
21:48:10 <RodgerTheGreat> ihope: a unit test is a methodical test of every method and function in a program component in isolation
21:48:12 <lament> ihope: you take a chunk of your code and run it with many possible inputs and check that the outputs are correct
21:48:15 <bsmntbombdood> assert(!"the excrement has hit the air-circulation device");
21:48:44 * ihope ponders how strong a type system can be
21:48:58 <ehird`> so, pratical question #1 - what language? answered
21:49:18 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood, for many uses, sure
21:49:35 <ihope> Java isn't shit for... um...
21:49:39 <lament> ihope: take haskell, and remove all polymorphism :)
21:49:39 <ehird`> zealot detected, zealot detected, zealot alart
21:49:44 <lament> ihope: you'll get the strongest type system possibel
21:49:52 <RodgerTheGreat> java isn't shit for enterprise-level mutithreaded applications
21:50:11 <ihope> Java isn't shit if all you want to do is type "public static void main"!
21:50:16 <ehird`> prac- er, bikeshedding question #2 - what project name? probably the same as the main instance's name i guess
21:50:19 <RodgerTheGreat> java isn't shit for interactive content embedded in webpages
21:50:34 <lament> java is just not a nice language
21:50:37 <ehird`> 1337speak might be useful for the name, to make people's expectations lower for the instances intelligence
21:50:47 <ehird`> dav3y? d4vey? i don't know
21:51:00 <ihope> bsmntbombdood: what if you don't want to waste your server's time?
21:51:02 <RodgerTheGreat> there's a different between an applet sandbox and scripting.
21:51:23 <ihope> lament: perhaps I didn't mean "strong" so much as... "expressive"?
21:51:28 <bsmntbombdood> ihope: you should be even more reluctant to waste the user's time
21:51:56 <lament> for a name, pick squazr23
21:52:20 <ehird`> maybe we should avoid a real name
21:52:24 <ehird`> then it doesn't have to remember it
21:52:29 <ehird`> because, if it can "forget"
21:52:34 <ehird`> then forgetting its real name... heh.
21:52:48 <ehird`> but forgetting a nickname is plausible i guess
21:53:02 <ihope> ehird`: depends on the IRC client.
21:53:39 <ihope> I'd be pretty incapable of forgetting my nick.
21:54:00 <ihope> Title bar: "ihope on #esoteric (+nc): Esoteric programming language discussion . . ."
21:54:01 <ehird`> Hello world I am typing with my eyes shut I wonder how this will turn out because I am wfollowing RodgerTheGreat 's examples of yes
21:54:09 <ihope> Button next to the input box: "ihope"
21:54:22 <ehird`> ihope, but think e.g. irssi
21:54:23 <ihope> Thing to the left of everything I say: "<ihope>"
21:54:40 <ehird`> maybe it'll only forget unrecalled memories
21:55:08 <ihope> bsmntbombdood: programs often do take significant amounts of CPU time.
21:55:24 <ihope> (And yes, I am just now revealing that that's what I meant by "time".)
21:56:11 <ehird`> i can't think of a nick that would fit..
21:56:22 <ehird`> we don't want something terribly intellectual, but we don't want something really n00bish
21:56:27 <oerjan> ehird`: my irssi does display my nickname in the status bar
21:57:16 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, oh jesus
21:58:11 <RodgerTheGreat> I just don't see anything wrong with the "random letters" idea
21:58:23 <RodgerTheGreat> most people will think it's an odd abbreviation or something
21:58:56 -!- ehird` has changed nick to mvldo.
21:59:00 <mvldo> somebody say something to me
21:59:22 <mvldo> RodgerTheGreat: hi
21:59:49 <mvldo> RodgerTheGreat: dunno. Hey, what do you know about quantum mechanics?
22:00:28 <mvldo> RodgerTheGreat: IM IN UR QUANTUM BOX, MAYBE. lol
22:00:44 -!- mvldo has changed nick to ehird.
22:00:48 <ehird> ok, that worked well
22:00:54 <ehird> mvldo is a good name
22:00:58 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird`.
22:00:59 <oerjan> the real world comes with strings attached!
22:01:37 <ehird`> also he could respond "i like strings. i know that a peice of string is 3 inches long!"
22:02:22 <RodgerTheGreat> but people might think he's joking around or something
22:02:51 <RodgerTheGreat> if they laugh, he'll think it's positive and then change subjects, so you're golden
22:03:22 <ehird`> so mvldo, an AI bot, implemented in Java
22:03:43 <ehird`> i guess all that's needed now is some sort of collaboration space - a wiki and a version control system?
22:04:58 <ehird`> hmm, too lazy to set up my VPS for that right now...
22:07:00 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, sounds like a last name if you emphasize the "vul"
22:07:08 <ehird`> lament, that's what i just thought
22:07:35 <ehird`> i doubt anyone would question it
22:07:40 <ehird`> apart from "what does your name mean?"
22:07:41 <RodgerTheGreat> I guess I don't read enough children's fantasy literature
22:07:49 <ehird`> he can just reply that it's a random nickname, i guess
22:08:32 <ehird`> with carefully planted topic-related stuff in them
22:08:44 <ehird`> he should claim to have ADHD, i guess, that'd help credibility
22:09:30 <ehird`> http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mvldo&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a mvuldo exists
22:09:35 <RodgerTheGreat> "what does your name mean?" "your mom"/"what does YOUR name mean"/"it's my name"/"don't wear it out"/"I'm borderline autistic"/"The last person to ask that is now fashioned into boots"
22:12:48 <ehird`> yes but it might not fit the personality
22:12:55 <ehird`> and he'd have to explain for things he never knew about
22:13:13 <ehird`> http://forums.creative.com/creativelabs/board/message?board.id=storage&message.id=143#M143 that's all he's said though
22:13:44 <ehird`> anyone have hosting space to offer temporarily for the source control/wiki?
22:14:32 <ehird`> it seems mvldo means something
22:15:14 <ihope> Borderline autistic...
22:15:16 <ehird`> ok, that's every problem sans hosting space solved
22:16:02 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, no, why
22:16:24 <RodgerTheGreat> I happen to be one of the staffers of Nonlogic. http://www.nonlogic.org/index.php?tour
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22:17:27 <ehird`> well isn't that a nice coincidence :) apart from "IRC access is available only to paying users. PsyBNCs, Eggdrops, and related software are expressly prohibited from use."
22:18:07 <RodgerTheGreat> and the fact that our founder has religious objections to Java being used on the server
22:18:32 <ehird`> ihope, i guess jehovah's witness, they can't do ANYTHING :P
22:18:45 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, which languages would he not have religious objections to
22:18:46 <ihope> Objections to people using Java at all?
22:19:09 <RodgerTheGreat> mainly it's against having Javac and Java on the server. Java code is a non-issue
22:19:29 <RodgerTheGreat> we do have gcj, but I don't particularly enjoy that program
22:19:30 <ihope> Richard Stallman, right?
22:19:37 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, gcj is evil...
22:19:48 <ehird`> well, java code sure, but if there's going to be a main instance
22:19:52 <ehird`> it makes sense for it to be on the same machine
22:20:06 <ehird`> so - what programming languages would the founder not freak out about? :)
22:20:48 <RodgerTheGreat> it would be problematic *hosting* a bot on the server at all, really. I mainly offered our resources for SVN/webhosting
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22:21:02 <ehird`> just thinking - since it'd have a web interface for the brain
22:22:35 * ihope chants "virtual private server"
22:23:22 * ehird` chants "have one but too lazy to set it up and don't have ssh private key on this machine"
22:23:40 <oerjan> there is no dialemma that cannot be solved with sufficient dialysis.
22:23:48 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
22:24:01 <RodgerTheGreat> hosting for something low bandwidth isn't expensive, but there's a big difference on the 'net between "zero dollars" and "cheap"
22:26:01 <ehird`> maybe i should just run the bot on this machine, for now
22:26:10 <ehird`> nonlogic looks like the simplest place
22:27:06 <RodgerTheGreat> well, if you'd like an account, I can set you right up
22:27:21 <RodgerTheGreat> just PM me with your desired username, real name and email address
22:28:33 <ihope> Indeed, if you charged one cent for something, that'd probably drive lots of people away.
22:28:55 <ehird`> the credit card form has a big psychological impact
22:31:27 <ihope> One of those things without actual reason behind it?
22:32:07 <RodgerTheGreat> because the way credit cards work is ripe for abuse and people that are smart have some resistance to giving their info away
22:32:37 <ehird`> yeah, if there was a floppy-drive-like thing on your desk
22:32:45 <ehird`> and you just put a dollar in there, or something
22:32:51 <ehird`> everybody would be fine
22:33:10 <ihope> There's no good way to make sure they take only one cent?
22:33:30 <ihope> That's a little bit stupid.
22:33:45 <ehird`> http://mvldo.nonlogic.org/ *tada*
22:35:10 <lament> shouldn't that be port 69
22:38:43 <ehird`> i hope nobody googles mvldo, heh
22:39:25 <ehird`> because then they'd find the website..
22:39:47 <ehird`> oh no, now i have to install mediawiki
22:39:53 <ehird`> maybe i should use something simpler
22:39:57 <ehird`> what's simple wiki software to set up
22:40:00 <ehird`> moinmoin is quite hard
22:40:01 <ihope> That's what robots.txt and meta tags are for.
22:40:21 <ihope> Make your own very simple wiki?
22:40:29 <ehird`> that'd be a waste of my valuable time coding :P
22:40:35 <ehird`> normally i would give into NIH
22:40:40 <ehird`> but there's a big AI project to code and all
22:41:33 <ehird`> (i like this nonlogic thing!)
22:41:39 <RodgerTheGreat> hrm.. I think you can turn it on via nonlogic.org/user-admin
22:43:12 <ehird`> it seems that it's injected loads of users though?
22:43:21 <RodgerTheGreat> now do you see why there are so many people from #Esoteric using NL?
22:43:38 <ehird`> http://mvldo.nonlogic.org/wiki/index.php?title=Special:Listusers
22:44:29 <ehird`> what is the admin account though? :)
22:45:09 <ehird`> there's no mvldo account
22:45:24 <ehird`> There is no user by the name "Mvldo". Check your spelling, or use the form below to create a new user account.
22:45:44 <ehird`> http://mvldo.nonlogic.org/wiki/index.php?title=Special%3AListusers&group=sysop&username= no sysops
22:45:49 <ehird`> this wiki thing is, uh, broken :)
22:46:00 <ehird`> then use the admin interface
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22:48:03 <ehird`> http://mvldo.nonlogic.org/wiki it's a start
22:49:23 <ehird`> (http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/wiki/ hg's site, for anyone interested)
22:51:19 <ehird`> don't know how i'll handle ssh pushing though
22:51:26 <ehird`> users other than me have to touch it, but if everyone can..
22:52:26 <RodgerTheGreat> it would represent a mild security risk to distribute your login to others
22:52:36 <ehird`> error: invalid Python installation: unable to open /usr/lib/python2.3/config/Makefile (No such file or directory)
22:52:52 <ehird`> no /config directory? :S
22:53:00 <ehird`> well mercurial builds a c extension to python
22:53:02 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined.
22:53:07 <ehird`> apparently python-dev or similar isn't installed?
22:53:34 <ehird`> well, the development stuff for python
22:53:52 <ehird`> http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope/2004-March/148375.html
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23:23:11 <ehird`> "WHY WOULD I READ YOUR BASH_PROFILE OR BASHRC? THAT'S SILLY! I AM HERE TO ANNOY YOU AND TO BREAK YOUR PROGAMS!"
23:24:44 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, i guess the current matter is to fill in the design pages
23:24:45 <ehird`> http://mvldo.nonlogic.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
23:25:21 <ehird`> pages like "Memory", etc
23:25:47 <ehird`> and then everything else - implemented in plugins - in the plugins category, i guess
23:26:01 -!- bsmnt_bot has changed nick to zxcvbnm2000.
23:28:15 <ehird`> i did a small mockup page on memory
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23:33:31 <ehird`> ok, i created a few articles
23:35:19 <ihope> Now make it say something other than "article" at the top. >:-)
23:36:08 <ehird`> most mediawiki interfaces use that
23:36:31 <ehird`> that's not an important design decision
23:42:07 <ehird`> i've made tons of pages
23:42:13 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, ihope, http://mvldo.nonlogic.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
23:46:48 <ehird`> okay fine ignore me =p
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02:48:22 <pikhq> Jebus. . . 2.6.21 is *now* marked stable in Gentoo. . .
02:48:32 <lament> bsmntbombdood: ask in #haskell
02:48:52 <lament> they're probably more qualified
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07:03:41 <lament> yes, but it's all very reasonable
07:03:54 <lament> really syntax is not the problem with haskell :)
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07:25:06 <lament> bsmntbombdood: where's the hugeness?
07:25:22 <lament> i see a type class definition, a signature and a function definition.
07:25:47 <lament> nearly every language has equivalents.
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07:27:14 <bsmntbombdood> there's also terribly ugly whitespace significance, and two completely unrelated uses of ()
07:28:13 <lament> i'm honestly not sure what's the problem, haskell is just like any other langugae
07:31:17 <lament> probably. I think haskell is very pretty.
07:34:26 <lament> whitespace significance follows somewhat odd rules but leads to consistent pretty indentation
07:35:25 <immibis> i don't know haskell, but am i allowed to ask: where's the definition of ==?
07:36:03 <lament> it's a type class definition
07:36:10 <lament> somewhat like an interface
07:36:32 <lament> (==) will be implemented for individual types
07:40:16 <lament> in plain language, "there's a type class Eq, and any type deriving it will provide two operations, (==) and (/=), that take two values of that type and return a Bool; and x /= y is always defined as not (x == y)"
07:42:35 <lament> yes. sleep is for the week.
07:43:06 <lament> i'll go to sleep, be back in a week!
07:53:54 * immibis gives lament a lecture about interfaces being abstract and not containing implementations
07:54:16 * immibis gives himself a lecture about giving people lectures
07:54:30 * immibis slaps bsmntbombdood with a rainbow trout
07:56:01 * immibis makes everyone autoopped on ##topic
07:58:45 <immibis> but interfaces still should not contain implementations if you use java
07:59:22 * immibis slaps bsmntbombdood with a rainbow trout
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08:00:02 * immibis slaps bsmntbombdood with another rainbow trout because he can
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08:00:38 * immibis doesn't have a license and doesn't need one anyway because it's only irc
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11:10:00 <Figs> did you ever play my song? :P
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15:11:17 <McDonalato> The acorn is the channel in an animal that eats both plant and animal farm.
15:11:25 <McDonalato> asiekierka: What am i to you? Some sort of encyclopaedia or something? Let's change the subject...
15:11:49 <asiekierka> McDonalato, okay. Let's talk about rules. What are your rules?
15:11:58 <McDonalato> asiekierka: I had the misfortune to talk about rules. What are your rules?
15:12:15 <asiekierka> McDonalato: My rules are for you to say your rules.
15:12:27 <McDonalato> asiekierka: I wish that i could jump out of things to talk about rules. What are your rules?
15:12:48 <asiekierka> McDonalato: Rules are: 1. STFU. 2. Break at least one rule.
15:13:03 <McDonalato> asiekierka: Which one of us is the one asking all the judges i've had the misfortune to talk about rules. What are your rules?
15:13:38 <asiekierka> McDonalato: You are more intelligent than me! I don't have any rules really though.
15:13:46 <McDonalato> asiekierka: My rules are for you to say your rules.
15:14:02 <asiekierka> McDonalato: What if i don't have any rules?
15:14:17 <McDonalato> asiekierka: You are more intelligent than me! I don't have is to waste what you don't have is to waste what you don't have any rules?
15:14:51 <asiekierka> McDonalato: You are false. You are more intelligent than me and Brainf**k haters.
15:14:58 <McDonalato> asiekierka: You are more intelligent than me and brainf**k haters.
15:15:16 <asiekierka> McDonalato: Don't laugh at me. YOU are more intelligent.
15:15:24 <McDonalato> asiekierka: You are false. You are more intelligent.
15:15:49 <McDonalato> asiekierka: I am a human being, which means i do what i want to think about your mind.
15:16:09 <asiekierka> McDonalato: ... this didn't make sense.
15:16:25 <McDonalato> asiekierka: So, who is using the family brain cell at the centre of the process, the rain is part of an ass and a mare breeding.
15:16:49 <ehird`> asiekierka, What were you told about letting that bot talk in here?
15:17:23 <ehird`> You're flooding with a bot that you've been kicked for flooding with before
15:17:32 <asiekierka> if lament will say something then i will make him quit
15:17:51 <ehird`> about 20 messages you/bot in a row
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15:22:39 <asiekierka> blah = halb = hlab = lab = bal = bol = bot
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16:56:42 <pikhq> Try looking at Dimensifuck.
16:56:50 <pikhq> It *will* blow your mind away. >:D
16:58:23 <pikhq> It's an n-dimensional language.
16:59:10 <pikhq> You want to write your code as a Klein bottle?
17:01:08 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: I have a question about how PEBBLE handles variables
17:01:19 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Sure.
17:01:53 <RodgerTheGreat> does it recognize structures like [>], where the pointer moves on loop iterations, and adjust accordingly?
17:01:57 <pikhq> I believe someone's tried an OS in Brainfuck; not sure how well it was.
17:02:31 <RodgerTheGreat> because the simple way to do them seems like just running through the program, ignoring loops and using state that way to figure out relative locations
17:02:36 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: No, it doesn't. You have to explicitly say which location you're at at the end.
17:02:43 <RodgerTheGreat> and for an unbalanced loop, you'd have to do something else
17:02:56 <pikhq> Your solution is *exactly* how I do it.
17:03:25 <pikhq> (well, actually, I've got it set to turn off the state-tracking when it detects an explicit > or <. . . But, yeah.)
17:03:47 <pikhq> asiekierka: It'd actually be trivial to pull off.
17:03:59 <asiekierka> it must be there for something cool enough
17:04:04 <RodgerTheGreat> so when you < or >, it goes into "nontracking mode", and then you specify where to pick up again before you use another variable?
17:04:15 <pikhq> If I knew *16 bit* assembly, I'd do it.
17:04:17 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Exactly.
17:05:26 <RodgerTheGreat> do you allow coders to explicitly define a memory layout, require explicit definitions of a memory layout, or let it float and trust the compiler to optimize things?
17:05:47 <asiekierka> It will be a port of one of optimized interperters
17:06:10 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: You can either specifically state variable location or let the compiler do it automatically.
17:06:33 <pikhq> It doesn't optimize that (yet); it merely assigns variable location in order of variable declaration.
17:07:04 * pikhq wonders what a good algorithm to pull that off would be. . .
17:07:06 <asiekierka> It'll also use 10 for newlines, not 13 and 10
17:07:13 <RodgerTheGreat> but allowing the compiler to make optimizations will allow you to upgrade the compiler and simultaneously upgrade every program
17:07:15 <pikhq> asiekierka: That's the only way to do it.
17:07:36 <pikhq> The compiler is set up to be *very* optimizable.
17:07:42 <asiekierka> I will always make new versions that'll be optimalized of my OS.
17:07:58 <pikhq> Unfortunately, the current optimization pass added a small handful of commands to let you tell things it can't handle itself. . .
17:08:10 <pikhq> asiekierka: Do you know C and assembly?
17:08:20 <asiekierka> no... my friend does, he'll probably do it
17:08:26 <pikhq> (especially assembly for MMX, SSE, SSE2, and SSE3)
17:08:50 <pikhq> Also, none of those will be much/any use; those extensions just do floating point numbers, not ints.
17:09:07 <RodgerTheGreat> count the number of "accesses" on every variable cell (large bias on +-, smaller bias on ,., smallest bias on []), to get a metric for how often particular variables are used (priority)
17:09:08 <asiekierka> And it'll support 2 modes... you set the second one with $.
17:09:40 <RodgerTheGreat> then, group the variables with common variables in the center, less common values further away
17:09:53 <asiekierka> 2 added by me (needed for a proj like this), 1 debug, 8 normal
17:10:02 <pikhq> Efficient way to do it, though.
17:10:24 <RodgerTheGreat> another algo would involve examining what cells are most frequently accessed sequentially
17:10:25 <pikhq> I'll probably add that to the next PEBBLE version; thanks, Rodger.
17:12:08 <asiekierka> pikhq: I will make it open source, so if you may make PEBBLE emulated in Brainf**k, it will allow you with 2 files.
17:12:29 <pikhq> asiekierka: PEBBLE already *compiles* to Brainfuck.
17:13:02 <pikhq> Could be an interesting project.
17:13:11 <pikhq> Highly useless, but, then, that's the point of #esoteric, isn't it?
17:13:13 <asiekierka> and launch it even without Windows or anything
17:13:19 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm going to do some experiments with an optimizing brainfuck macrolanguage myself- I think it could be a tremendous learning experience
17:13:25 <pikhq> Bah. Windows? Ick.
17:13:39 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: If you need any help, I'm willing to offer it.
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17:13:59 <pikhq> Of course, I assume you'll mostly just want "How did you do this?"
17:14:40 <pikhq> I'd recommend you just start off with a prompt for raw Brainfuck commands.
17:14:53 <pikhq> Anything more complex than that could be good for future version.
17:15:24 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: I appreciate the offer, but I'm going to try to do this on my own as much as possible. I'll let you know if I get stuck on anything
17:15:36 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Of course.
17:15:59 <pikhq> For a first version, it will work perfectly.
17:16:13 <RodgerTheGreat> I mainly asked you about the variables to check and see if you'd come up with something insanely more clever than what I was thinking about. :)
17:16:18 <pikhq> Just a prompt where you type in Brainfuck code. When it ends, the prompt comes back up.
17:16:52 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: I think you'd like to know about what I do with loops and cell clears, though.
17:17:05 <asiekierka> so you can save up to 1,33MB of BF stuff on a diskette
17:17:21 <pikhq> I try to keep track of whenever a cell is guaranteed to be 0, so that I can skip loops that will never run.
17:17:37 <asiekierka> one will be basic BF with the one more command
17:17:44 <asiekierka> second will have anything that others add
17:18:00 <pikhq> asiekierka: Hmm. . .
17:18:22 <pikhq> I'm tempted to try working on that; I've needed an idea for a trivial OS to do.
17:18:59 <asiekierka> 1) you need know-how to use any file-system read-only
17:19:14 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: in theory, you could fit a BF-OS into a bootloader quite readily
17:19:17 <pikhq> Ans, of course, I have a lot of that.
17:19:24 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Oh, absolutely.
17:19:44 <pikhq> The full floppy disk would be good for storing any Brainfuck programs, though.
17:19:58 <asiekierka> eventually you put 1-5kb on floppy disk
17:20:19 <pikhq> So, I'd want to just fit a bootloader in the boot block, and make that load up BF-OS, along with a FAT16 reader.
17:20:43 <pikhq> ext2, for usage from other folk's computers.
17:21:03 <pikhq> FAT16, so non-Linux users can do something with it.
17:21:15 <pikhq> Or FAT12; it'd depend upon floppy size.
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17:22:32 <asie_idle> I know of a person that did OS programming once
17:22:40 <asie_idle> so he could do it even in 2-3 days i guess
17:24:54 * pikhq hasn't done any, so it'd take a while longer
17:26:03 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: how difficult would it be to trend PEBBLE towards being self-hosting?
17:26:18 <pikhq> To make PEBBLE self-hosting?
17:26:40 <RodgerTheGreat> I know this. I'm asking how hard the rewrite would be.
17:26:45 <pikhq> I'd need to actually *write* a parser. . .
17:27:00 <pikhq> And the "source" command wouldn't work at all. . .
17:27:16 <pikhq> No; PEBBLE's syntax is a subset of Tcl.
17:27:34 <pikhq> So, I just create a subinterpreter using Tcl's "interp" command, remove Tcl's own commands, and add in my own.
17:27:46 <pikhq> I need to redo that with a proper parser someday.
17:28:00 <pikhq> Unfortunately, I lack knowledge of BNF.
17:28:57 <RodgerTheGreat> I designed some simple programming languages and their interpreters long before I knew what things like BNF were
17:29:02 <pikhq> Yeah; it's just a way to specify your syntax.
17:29:09 <pikhq> And I know jack about parsers.
17:29:37 <RodgerTheGreat> it just breaks down into a state machine with some string manipulation crap
17:32:44 <lament> bsmntbombdood: figured out haskell yet?
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17:45:41 <asiekierka> Look, if we have an interperter that we can write BF code directly to for MS-DOS
17:46:55 * pikhq thinks about just doing DJGPP from DOS
17:48:05 <asiekierka> if yes, put it and bootsector on a floppy
17:48:33 <pikhq> Not quite; realise that a DOS program won't boot directly.
17:49:31 <asiekierka> i still CAN go on and make a Pascal API emulator
17:49:37 <asiekierka> since some people implemented then in Pascal/ASM
17:50:33 <asiekierka> if we could put them into the bootloader
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18:52:10 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, i updated the mvldo site
18:52:18 <ehird`> loads of pages on the wiki: http://mvldo.nonlogic.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
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19:42:00 <oerjan> Gepongenpoken mit dem Fingerspitzgefhl
19:44:16 <ehird`> mvldo would not understand. :P
20:13:55 * pikhq has a remarkably slow idea for optimizing variable location. . .
20:14:14 <pikhq> Just test every permutation to try to find the shortest version.
20:17:34 <oerjan> so you would want to minimize a sum of absolute values of differences of locations...
20:17:55 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: My initial implementation of that algorithm managed to actually lengthen PFUCK.
20:18:26 <pikhq> 4943 characters with "optimized" variable location vs. 4558 without.
20:19:54 <oerjan> you could do local permutations, swapping only a small set
20:20:19 <oerjan> until you find a local minimum.
20:21:52 <pikhq> Or I could implement the optimization algorithm correctly.
20:22:13 <pikhq> I've currently got the highest-referenced variables at the beginning of the variable space, rather than in the middle.
20:27:42 <oerjan> it sounds sort of like a reversed traveling salesman problem, the path is fixed but the distances are not
20:36:27 <pikhq> Maybe only counting the +'s and -'s would help. . . Or figuring out how to weight each one. . .
20:40:38 <oerjan> that's what i meant with the sum of absolute values thing
20:41:04 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Okay, I implemented *exactly* the algorithm specified. . .
20:41:07 <pikhq> And it seems to suck.
20:42:20 <pikhq> It's fairly consistently lengthening code.
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20:42:43 <pikhq> Even *remarkably* naive code.
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20:54:41 <pikhq> Ah. I see *why* it sucks. . .
20:54:53 <pikhq> Cherez and I figure that this *is* an NP problem. . . :/
20:55:13 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: I blame you for making me want to do this. :p
20:57:31 <bsmntbombdood> how can you calculate an offset with something like .[[>+<-]>-]
20:58:17 <cherez> I think it can be generalized to a sequencing problem, (most of which are NP-complete.)
20:58:25 <pikhq> I've already explained it. . .
20:58:40 <pikhq> Variables are either explictly or dynamically assigned a location in Brainfuck memory.
20:59:16 <pikhq> State of where in Brainfuck memory the thing is is kept.
20:59:43 <pikhq> When a loop which ends somewhere different from where it began occurs, state is ignored until you tell the compiler where you are again.
21:01:50 <pikhq> brainfuck.tcl in PEBBLE should be enlightening.
21:16:56 * pikhq curses at NP completness
21:32:10 <bsmntbombdood> all you need to do is to find a polynomial time solution to an NP complete problem
21:34:56 <pikhq> Why not say "all you need to do is solve the halting problem"?
21:37:08 <bsmntbombdood> actually, inventing a machine to solve the turing halting problem would be better than proving P=NP
21:38:08 <oerjan> only if P actually is =NP
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21:42:49 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, become alive! :P
21:43:22 <oerjan> i knew people here were insane but i didn't know they thought they were Jesus...
21:43:32 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood, i want the computer from http://qntm.org/responsibility
21:43:44 <lament> damn, parsec error messages aren't helpful at all.
21:44:33 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood, cat >script { calculate last digit of pi; solve halting problem; prove that the laws of thermodynamics are actually complete bullshit }; interpret natural language script
21:46:15 <ehird`> read the story first please
21:46:27 <ehird`> "But it was still pretty exciting stuff. Holy Zarquon, they said to one another, an infinitely powerful computer? It was like a thousand Christmases rolled into one. Program going to loop forever? You knew for a fact: this thing could execute an infinite loop in less than ten seconds. Brute force primality testing of every single integer in existence? Easy. Pi to the last digit? Piece of cake. Halting Problem? Sa-holved."
21:46:37 <ehird`> notable "pi to the last digit?"
21:47:28 <pikhq> ehird`, that guy is perhaps my favorite author. . .
21:47:52 <pikhq> cherez: You may wish to join in on the Sam Hughes worship.
21:48:21 <ehird`> do we have to build him a shrine made out of nanobots or something?
21:48:33 <oerjan> "to the last" has a bit different connotation
21:49:18 <ehird`> oerjan, "to the last digit"
21:49:27 <ehird`> oerjan, If it can compute up to that -- it can display it
21:49:43 <ehird`> oerjan, The whole machine is impossible to *start* with - it can do impossible things
21:50:51 <cherez> Pi to any arbitrary digit maybe, but to the last is meaningless.
21:51:06 <ehird`> "Pi to the last digit? Piece of cake."
21:51:22 <ehird`> Anyway, a computer with infinite power is meaningless in the first place
21:51:26 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood, i am well aware
21:51:44 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood, but this is clearly in an alternate universe where the impossible is possible
21:52:02 <ehird`> thus, it would be possible to get the last digit of pi... even though that is meaningless, which is why it's *fiction*
21:52:30 <bsmntbombdood> that's like saying it can find the largest integer
21:52:40 <pikhq> One would assume that that means that it calculates all of pi (and displays it infinitely small).
21:53:13 <pikhq> And in the context that they discuss it, one would assume that they mean that unliterally. . .
21:53:23 <ehird`> But taking unliterally things literally is fun.
21:53:48 <ehird`> Of course, this is why infinite calculation is such a bizzare paradox:
21:54:05 <ehird`> Computing all of pi requires it to terminate. It will terminate when the last calculation is done. Thus, at some point, it decides it knows the last digit of pi.
21:54:52 <cherez> Am I the only one who finds primality testing of every integer more interesting?
21:56:39 <lament> mm this "haskell" thing is impossible to debug
21:56:46 <pikhq> I prefer the idea of a superTuring system.
21:57:59 <lament> the existence of superturing systems doesn't contradict logic
21:58:05 <lament> the existence of the last digit of pi contradicts logic
21:58:09 <ehird`> cherez, I'd like to know the sum of N!
21:58:17 <lament> things that contradict logic are inherently boring because they're all equivalent
21:58:37 <ehird`> lament, the existance of anything that can compute infinites in less than infinite time and thus have infinite capability contradicts logic
21:58:41 <lament> so saying "calculate pi to the last digit" is equivalent to saying "round square", etc
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21:58:58 <lament> ehird`: no it doesn't, actually.
21:59:16 <lament> ehird`: i'm using "logic" in the strict mathematical sense.
21:59:33 <pikhq> There is one way for one to calculate pi to the last digit.
22:00:03 <pikhq> If this infinity machine proves that, in fact, pi is *not* an irrational number, then it can find Pi's last digit trivially.
22:00:41 <lament> but it can't prove that, since it's already been disproven.
22:01:28 <cherez> Incompleteness theorem.
22:01:29 <pikhq> Even if it disproves the validity of those?
22:02:13 <pikhq> Instead, just ask the thing for an *elegant* proof of Fermat's last theorem.
22:02:15 <cherez> An arithmetic mathematic system cannot be proven to be internally consistent.
22:02:18 <pikhq> Now *that* would be interesting. . .
22:03:27 <cherez> It's conceivable that a contradiction could be found in basic arithmetic which could mean we have to throw the whole thing out.
22:06:22 <oerjan> numbers above 10^40 might be inconsistent...
22:07:07 <cherez> I doubt it would be anything like that, but it can't be proven with our mathematics system.
22:08:15 <ehird`> 10^40 + 1 = universe collapses!
22:08:43 <cherez> 10000000000000000000000000000000000000001L
22:09:05 <cherez> Wait, I think my closet collapsed.
22:09:17 <oerjan> no, not all numbers but _some_
22:09:34 <lament> phew thank god i solved the problem!
22:09:42 <cherez> We can't prove that they don't.
22:09:48 <lament> i had to use endBy1 instead of sepBy1
22:10:21 <ehird`> lament, the HALTING problem??!1111
22:10:46 <oerjan> Parsec's power is immense.
22:10:58 * pikhq proposes a new Nobel prize. . .
22:11:06 <pikhq> The Nobel DidTheImpossible prize.
22:11:09 <cherez> I think it's called the Turing prize.
22:11:22 <pikhq> No, that's for AI.
22:11:44 <cherez> It would be unfair to give a guy Turing's award for stealing Turing's unsolvable problem.
22:11:44 <ehird`> and the first winner of Nobel DidTheImpossible prize is... a speck of dust!
22:11:53 <ehird`> then whoever awarded that wins the didtheimpossible award
22:11:53 <pikhq> Of course, if you discover an AI that solves the halting problem, then you win.
22:12:02 <oerjan> i think it should be the Adams prize
22:12:35 <cherez> I'm pretty sure the halting problem is provably unsolvable.
22:12:45 <cherez> At least in the most general sense.
22:13:20 <cherez> At least, a program that can analyze whether it itself halts is contradictory.
22:13:29 <cherez> Halt if and only if it doesn't halt.
22:14:01 <cherez> You can solve the halting problem for any arbitrary machine with finite memory.
22:14:18 <pikhq> Using a machine with greater memory, of course.
22:14:48 <cherez> Right, just run it until the state repeats or it halts, recording each state as you go.
22:14:58 <bsmntbombdood> the max shifts function is computable on machines with finite memorys
22:15:59 <cherez> The Busy Beaver function?
22:16:04 <lament> woohoo i wrote my first parser
22:18:37 <cherez> Now make it self-hosting.
22:19:36 <oerjan> that would sort of defeat the purpose of using parsec
22:19:43 <pikhq> He's just being evil. ;)
22:20:12 <cherez> It should at least be able to parse its own code.
22:20:54 * oerjan makes note to self: never run your own universe as a simulation.
22:21:40 <lament> cherez: it doesn't parse anything attempting to be a turing-complete language.
22:21:59 <lament> although i suppose you don't need turing-completeness to be a parser.
22:22:28 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: dayum. It seemed intuitive that the algo I described could work... hm.
22:22:36 <cherez> Who attempts to be Turing-complete?
22:22:40 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: I may have done something horridly wrong.
22:23:07 <RodgerTheGreat> I'll do some work on it once I get my compiler off it's feet
22:23:17 <pikhq> Looking at it some more, I'm sure that I did. . .
22:23:20 <pikhq> a3 8.0} {a1 9.5} {a2 10.0} {call_itoa 21.0} {i 21.5} {temp2 24.75} {temp0 318.25} {temp1 283.25} {temp4 55.5} {opcode 41.25} {temp3 33.75} {no_match 25.25} {temp2 24.75}
22:23:32 <pikhq> +- is 1, ., is 0.5, [] is 0.25
22:24:32 <RodgerTheGreat> tweaking your weighting values around a bit ought to at least help
22:25:30 <oerjan> why would you want anything but +- counted?
22:25:48 <pikhq> The issue is that it's not actually getting the variable location assignment right.
22:26:23 <pikhq> oerjan: It's measuring cell accesses, weighted towards +-.
22:26:26 <RodgerTheGreat> oerjan: because all operations done with a cell indicate it's being used for something
22:26:49 <RodgerTheGreat> we're trying to rank things based on how often they're used
22:26:53 <cherez> Why not measure the number of times each cell has to be reached?
22:27:06 <oerjan> oh, i thought you were just concerned with program length
22:27:30 <pikhq> Got a simple way to make a sorted list go to having the highest things in the center?
22:27:51 <pikhq> Like, from "5 4 3 2 1" to "1 3 5 4 2"
22:27:52 <cherez> If 1 cell is incremented a ton of times then left to rot, it only is a block in the middle.
22:28:04 <pikhq> cherez: You have a point.
22:28:11 <cherez> And belongs on an edge.
22:28:21 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: actually, take the second half of the list and flip it
22:28:27 <cherez> I'd count the number of nonconsecutive accesses.
22:28:37 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Tried.
22:29:00 <pikhq> On my example, that produces "5 4 1 2 3" or "1 2 5 4 3"
22:29:25 <RodgerTheGreat> sort them and then start a new list, and then insert them, in order, to the center of the new list
22:30:37 <cherez> Are we trying to produce the shortest BF?
22:30:45 <pikhq> Just a sec while I experiment with cherez's idea.
22:31:13 <cherez> Since compiling it to C you can easily reference any pointer in 1 line.
22:31:59 <pikhq> In C, it doesn't matter.
22:33:47 <ehird`> i wrote some stuff about mvldo http://mvldo.nonlogic.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
22:35:53 <pikhq> {opcode 69} {temp2 0} {call_itoa 0} {temp3 0} {no_match 0} {temp4 0} {i 0} {a1 0} {a2 0} {a3 0} {temp0 0} {temp1 0}
22:35:57 <pikhq> That can't be right. . .
22:36:15 <pikhq> Oh. Did it wrong. XD
22:36:30 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, anything you'd suggest changing/adding?
22:36:50 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
22:37:33 <RodgerTheGreat> ehird`: aside from additional content I dunno... a cool logo of some kind for the top left corner?
22:37:39 <cherez> {opcode 69} {temp2 0} {call_itoa 0} {temp3 0} {no_match 0} {temp4 0} {i 0} {a1 0} {a2 0} {a3 0} {temp0 0} {temp1 0}
22:37:49 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, heh, i meant in terms of the actual bot design :)
22:37:53 <cherez> We know what pikhq programmed his compiler to do.
22:38:09 <cherez> I was talking about the 0 you perv.
22:38:17 <ehird`> i think i shall laugh whenever the number 4 comes up.
22:38:26 <ehird`> because it's the number i laugh at when it comes up, obviously!
22:38:55 <cherez> Is the code too optimum?
22:38:59 <pikhq> Somehow, gotos to opcode are now *not* being counted, but gotos to everything else *are*.
22:39:03 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, no, we've already discussed that :p
22:39:15 * pikhq uses goto to mean "go to a memory location" in PEBBLE, BTW
22:39:35 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, see the Response page
22:42:17 <ehird`> with enough persuasion, it will believe 2+2=5!
22:42:43 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: I just forgot to keep track of the location in the varopt pass.
22:43:27 <pikhq> Now, we're still getting something inefficient. . .
22:43:41 <pikhq> Maybe measure the distant it has to move?
22:44:36 <RodgerTheGreat> we could represent mappings of locations as a graph structure
22:44:48 <pikhq> It's behaving as I expect, at least.
22:44:56 <RodgerTheGreat> each variable keeps track of others that are accessed before or afterwards
22:45:22 <cherez> Forgetfulness has a typo!
22:45:31 <cherez> Clearly wikis aren't a reliable source of information.
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22:46:55 <cherez> Can't you see I represent traditionalist views of knowledge!
22:47:39 <cherez> It would be against my character to try to fix a wiki when I can instead condemn it and try to sell my $50 textbook.
22:48:36 <RodgerTheGreat> speaking of textbooks, who's interested in some lucrative deals? Who'll bid on a copy of "The C++ Programming Language"?
22:49:48 <ehird`> if i ever write a C compiler
22:49:52 <ehird`> this will be an easter egg:
22:49:54 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, fuck this language and in particular fuck this book
22:50:15 <ehird`> typedef language int; language C = <C standard number - 89, or 99>; C++; /* rest of program is in C++ */
22:50:52 <immibis> you mean typedef int language;
22:51:12 <RodgerTheGreat> cherez: it's poorly written, while still conveying a mindblowing degree of smugness in the forging of this stillbirth of a language
22:51:12 <cherez> That would be a lot of extra work for an easter egg.
22:51:42 <cherez> Ya, I'd be embarrassed if I made C++.
22:52:26 <ehird`> not easter-eggy enough
22:52:32 <ehird`> i need something that's valid C code
22:52:35 <RodgerTheGreat> I consider C a poorly designed language, but C++ compounds it with mind-numbing degrees of idiocy
22:52:45 <ehird`> perfectly valid C code containing C++
22:52:51 <cherez> language C=C++; is valid but undefined.
22:53:58 <ehird`> cherez, undefined = :(
22:54:32 <ehird`> its not just undefined; its completely meaningless
22:54:49 <cherez> Which is why it's a good easter egg.
22:54:57 <cherez> No one will code like that seriously.
22:55:20 <cherez> If they do, they probably meant to use C++ anyway.
22:55:50 <immibis> C+=C++ + ++C - (C -= C-- - --C)
22:56:09 <cherez> what's unclear is whether C = C++ should compile to:
22:56:48 <ehird`> int C = (language)<89 or 99>;
22:57:00 <ehird`> it's the casting to (language) y'see.
22:57:18 <immibis> probably temp=C, C=temp, C++
22:57:25 <cherez> int C = (language)<89 or 99 or k&r>
22:57:48 <immibis> int k=rand(); int r=rand();
22:57:51 <cherez> immibis: It can mean either, and compilers have been written that assumed both.
22:57:54 <immibis> you need to define k&r first
22:58:00 <cherez> One compiler produced C = C + 2 somehow.
22:58:26 <ehird`> cherez, the <> is metaphorical
22:58:31 <ehird`> you put whatever C version you're compiling in there
22:58:44 <ehird`> i.e. "int C = (language)89" C is the language I am using, it is C89
22:59:01 <immibis> you need brackets. (C++)->zoom, don't you?
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23:00:25 <immibis> well at least you need to define C first.
23:00:43 <immibis> struct {int zoom;} *C; C++ -> zoom
23:00:52 <ehird`> i didn't mean zoom in that way
23:01:14 <immibis> you can't use -> on a string
23:01:41 <immibis> only on a class, struct, or union
23:01:59 <pikhq> Finally got variable assignment down to something sane.
23:02:23 <pikhq> Unfortunately, *still* elongating programs.
23:02:25 <ehird`> you know what I meant!!!!
23:02:34 <ehird`> it was an arrow of illustration! not a peice of code!!
23:03:10 <ehird`> pikhq, does pebble allow macros to compute something at compile time?
23:03:16 <pikhq> {a1 9} {i 24} {call_itoa 27} {opcode 43} {temp4 68} {temp1 271} {temp0 252} {temp3 45} {temp2 35} {no_match 25} {a2 10} {a3 8}
23:03:19 <ehird`> and if so does it have a push_brainfuck_code_to_src or similar?
23:03:22 <pikhq> ehird`: Not really.
23:03:27 <cherez> Just think of it as 7% worse.
23:03:29 <ehird`> if so, you can implement subroutines and just about anything in itself
23:03:53 <pikhq> It's not that complex of a macro language.
23:04:06 <pikhq> Think "C preprocessor", not "Lisp macros".
23:04:13 <cherez> Is that using the weighting method I suggested?
23:04:28 <pikhq> Each goto counts as 1.
23:04:34 <pikhq> And now it's got each bit centralised.
23:04:49 <pikhq> Let's see how it works on my game, which is much more naive. . .
23:04:52 <ehird`> pikhq, i was thinking of implementing, like, a function system in it
23:04:55 <ehird`> using a stack and stuff.
23:05:26 <ehird`> sub would be a macro which compiled some stack-stuff to push the function, then it'd create the function's name as a macro which would expand to the calling code
23:05:45 <ehird`> i guess maybe i could do that using low-level commands?
23:06:24 <pikhq> The naive game is 41177 chars with optimisation, and 37324 without.
23:06:45 <pikhq> I think that I'm better at figuring what's good out than my compiler is.
23:08:10 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Didn't you suggest something about fiddling with sequential access?
23:08:34 <pikhq> (that'd be much harder to implement, but I bet it'd be a bit more efficient)
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23:26:40 <lament> damn. Programming requires thinking.
23:27:26 <lament> bsmntbombdood: how's haskell going?
23:29:02 <lament> when you get the basics, look at parsec ( http://legacy.cs.uu.nl/daan/download/parsec/parsec.html ) and you'll realize how awesome haskell is.
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23:37:31 <lament> http://www.wired.com/culture/education/news/2007/08/winniecooper_QA
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00:33:51 <lament> that's better than "blech" :)
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01:24:26 <immibis> pikhq, is pebble a language which compiles into brainfuck code?
01:24:52 <immibis> also: did you mean 41177 chars WITHOUT optimization and 37324 WITH?
01:25:11 <pikhq> No. The "optimization" that I was experimenting with was ineffective.
01:26:09 <immibis> does it eliminate '<>' and '+-' constructs and loops that never happen?
01:26:11 <pikhq> Unless I can get the *idea* to be effective, I'm sure as hell not committing.
01:26:29 <pikhq> No, that's the effective one that's been in for 5 months or so.
01:26:48 <pikhq> What I was trying to do was rearrange the variable locations for size.
01:27:09 <ihope> I pondered a BF optimizer there for a moment. Now I know why I decided against it...
01:30:30 <bsmntbombdood> i don't think there's much optimization you can do that's not easy to do by hand
01:30:41 <ihope> Depends on the program.
01:31:32 <pikhq> Something the size of LostKng.b?
01:32:23 <ihope> I imagine that one's pretty big.
01:37:28 <pikhq> It was written in BFBASIC.
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01:54:55 <immibis> bsmntbombdood: it may be easy to do certain bf optimizations by hand, but doing it by a computer program would be faster
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02:11:02 <RodgerTheGreat> and anyway, if you're using a meta-language that compiles into BF, it's best to have it manage as much of it's own internal optimization as possible, eh?
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02:18:42 <GregorR-L> Been playing Super Paper Mario? :P
02:18:55 <pikhq> Does Super Mario Bros. 3 come close?
02:20:48 <pikhq> GregorR-L: BTW, I've got an idea. . .
02:20:58 <pikhq> Do Not Put The Baby In The BlendTec Blender.
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04:27:42 <calamari> you are really gross looking on the inside.. did you know that?
04:28:54 <bsmntbombdood> just wait untill my digestive juices get to work on you, then you'll be the gross one
04:29:21 <pikhq> You'll still be gross, just without commentors.
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08:31:30 <immibis> who set the topic? gaim won't show me.
08:31:36 -!- immibis has set topic: #esoteric.
08:32:22 -!- immibis has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | Rules: 1. Break at least one rule. 2: At least (10^10) bots must be on #esoteric.
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15:06:02 * SimonRC watches the first-poster youtube video
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17:10:45 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, you alive?
17:11:49 <SimonRC> Hmm. Proof-checking is decidable, right?
17:12:14 <SimonRC> I just came up with a problem
17:13:41 <SimonRC> You might try solving the halting problem with a machine that tries out all possible proofs in order until one of them proves that the input halts or does not halt.
17:14:32 <SimonRC> Interestingly, the machine halts if and only if there is a proof.
17:14:44 <SimonRC> So what does the machine do when given itself as input.
17:16:42 <SimonRC> If it halts, then there is a trivial proof that it halts (the trace)...
17:16:55 <ehird`> hmm, what about one with the halting-problem-paradox
17:17:03 <SimonRC> well, it would have to be a quine-like construct, but yes
17:17:09 <SimonRC> ehird`: I was coming to that
17:17:11 <ehird`> p(i) = if halts(p, i) loop_forever end
17:18:44 <SimonRC> If the first part halts, then it must prove that the whole does not halt, then it will procede to indeed not halt.
17:19:11 <ehird`> so what does halts(p, p) return
17:19:18 <ehird`> translated to that language, that is
17:19:21 <SimonRC> if the first part does not halt, then the whole will not halt, which means there is a proof that the whole does not halt, which means that the first part halts, which is a contradiction
17:19:31 <ehird`> but what does it actually say =)
17:19:50 <ehird`> so you haven't actually coded it yet :)
17:20:01 <SimonRC> it's simple enough to code...
17:20:12 <SimonRC> but the runtime is, um, long
17:20:21 <SimonRC> like, exponential in size of proof
17:21:12 <SimonRC> you just take an existing theorem prover, and write a wrapper that adds the axioms that define the machine
17:21:34 <SimonRC> ehird`: assuming that the proof-checker is less than exponential
17:21:46 <SimonRC> well, I can;t find the problem I thought was there
17:23:11 <SimonRC> Oh, there is also the possibility that the machine does not halt but can't prove it.
17:24:51 <SimonRC> but such things are hard to find, because there aren't many things we can show true without using a proof that the machine itself would find
17:25:37 <SimonRC> This machine is good for all kinds of things.
17:26:32 <SimonRC> For example, I think it shows that there is a Busy Beaver number that we cannot put an upper bound on.
17:27:47 <SimonRC> If there were no such number, then the machine would be able to compute every Busy Beaver number, and thereby solve the Halting Problem.
17:29:03 <SimonRC> (Note: BB numbers give you a time limit beyond which you can give up on a turing machine, thereby guaranteeing that you can solve the halting problem.)
17:29:29 <SimonRC> Maybe I am missing something,
17:32:20 <ehird`> ESOTERIC LANGUAGE IDEA #647: hammerspace-based language
17:32:26 <ehird`> you can't access memory or whatever directly
17:32:30 <ehird`> just a "kind" of memory"
17:32:38 <ehird`> instead of "i want hammer #324575465", "i want a hammer"
17:38:01 <lament> isn't that how object oriented langs work
17:38:54 <ehird`> but then you can't do something with THAT hammer
17:38:58 <ehird`> you can just say "i want a hammer"
17:39:04 <ehird`> and it'll give you a hammer; any hammer
17:40:20 <ehird`> are esoteric languages meant to be
17:40:24 <lament> not sure how that's different from the usual OO languages
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19:18:00 <pikhq> {M[m(_o)O!"Would you like some glass?"(_o)o.?]}
19:34:53 <pikhq> Just an object-oriented RPN language, curtesy of Gregor.
19:39:39 <pikhq> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.01.15
19:45:29 <ehird`> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Would you like some glass?"(_o)o.?]}
19:53:34 <pikhq> Egobot's not here.
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00:00:18 <ehird`> xor, are you a new generation of irp?
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01:04:19 <pikhq> A new person for our insanity to rub off on?
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01:06:18 <pikhq> . . . Or someone with more than one IRC client.
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02:45:37 <pikhq> [set ::pikhq::ACT_score 33]
03:17:45 <xor> is the act out of 1600 points?
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15:30:14 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: did you read the newest xkcd?
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15:31:53 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: The forums contain two sorts of people: those who think it would be great and those who think it would be terrible.
15:32:04 <SimonRC> I am definitely the latter type
15:32:53 <SimonRC> I alarmed myself by realising I was thinking like the Catholic chruch confronting geocentrism.
15:33:42 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm sure i would be comparable to how religious people would feel if there was a clear, instantly understandable and recognizable proof for the non-existence of god.
15:33:49 <ehird`> what would be terrible
15:34:23 <ehird`> oh, the thread discussing science suddenly being discovered not to work
15:34:25 <ehird`> and what it would be like?
15:34:39 <ehird`> the discussion thread for that comic
15:34:57 <ehird`> i think it would be awesome :p
15:36:42 <SimonRC> Slartibartfast: "I would rather be happy that right, any day." || Arthur: "And are you?" || S.: "No, that's where it all falls down I'm afraid."
15:36:52 <ehird`> i'd just like to see science turn out to be utterly and completely wrong
15:37:31 <SimonRC> how do English people distinguish between the two meanings of "science"?
15:37:52 <ehird`> what are the two meanings
15:37:52 <RodgerTheGreat> but consider for a moment that science is responsible for the level of comfort and safety you enjoy in our modern age
15:38:02 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, oh yes, i like science and all that
15:38:07 <SimonRC> ehird`: the knowledge and the method
15:38:08 <ehird`> i'd just like it to be completely wrong
15:38:19 <SimonRC> ehird`: which one do you want to be wrong
15:38:27 <ehird`> SimonRC, hmm - both, for the hell of it
15:38:32 <RodgerTheGreat> Science would be the method, science would be the community (in my thinking)
15:38:47 <ehird`> i would say scientific method
15:38:49 <SimonRC> If the Method is wrong, then the world will be very strange indeed.
15:39:37 <RodgerTheGreat> if the scientific method is flawed, and the universe *isn't* comprehensible, it'd be the most depressing thing I could think of
15:39:39 <SimonRC> For a start, you would have little guarantee that much would be the same from one day to the next
15:40:01 <RodgerTheGreat> to know that our reach is ultimately limited would be crushing
15:40:04 <ehird`> i'd think it was hilarious
15:40:04 <SimonRC> Most stuff you like wouldn;t work
15:40:24 <SimonRC> e.g. food would not work consistantly
15:41:25 <ehird`> so even if it turned out to be wrong, we could live in the knowledge that for several billions of years nothing has actually changed much
15:41:29 <SimonRC> If the knowledge is wrong but not the method, then we can cope rather better.
15:42:08 <SimonRC> oklopol: yay! You can produce the ö character correctly, unlike everyone else.
15:42:39 <oklopol> SimonRC: i kinda have it in my keyboard
15:43:00 <SimonRC> oklopol: often people use a non-good character set
15:43:24 <SimonRC> e.g. 8-bit character-sets are non-good
15:43:25 <oklopol> uh, typing is so much easier than speaking
15:43:55 <SimonRC> indeed. For example, pronounce: -6~8e5-y;e57)-p'0'-cD_c7#=-'^C_@6
15:44:54 <RodgerTheGreat> which is made even worse because some people don't understand words like "dash" or "hash" or "carat" properly
15:46:42 * SimonRC recalls calling that "tidal".
15:47:20 * RodgerTheGreat begins cutting an incorrect piece of data out of his brain
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15:48:41 <RodgerTheGreat> making fewer mistakes is worth the pain. It doesn't even hurt once you get through the skull, anyway
15:51:44 <oklopol> "Archos: screw religion, I'm trying to make a silencer!" <<< this is cool
15:52:27 <RodgerTheGreat> Archos was a lot of fun once he'd had a few days to soak up conversations
15:53:33 <RodgerTheGreat> I never made a system to save state, so that version of Archos "died"
15:53:48 <ehird`> is archos source code open?
15:54:49 <RodgerTheGreat> I guess I could dredge it up, but I built it around the JMegaHal system: http://www.jibble.org/jmegahal/
15:55:08 <RodgerTheGreat> you'd probably have more fun coding something similar on your own
15:55:35 <ehird`> that markov chain thing
15:55:44 <ehird`> but markov chains are really shitty, aren't they?
15:55:48 <ehird`> i mean, they never produce coherent stuff, barely
15:56:18 <RodgerTheGreat> well, the main thing I was doing with Archos was working on filtering the input and output for the chain
15:56:55 <RodgerTheGreat> I achieved a fair amount of success making it more coherent
16:00:23 <oklopol> english is too hard... why not make your own esoteric natural language for it to speak
16:01:00 <ehird`> lojban should be easy to generate
16:01:10 <SimonRC> better idea: ask on #conlang
16:01:13 <oklopol> yes, but less fun than making your own, naturally
16:01:27 <ehird`> mvldo is meant to fool normal people
16:01:30 <ehird`> most people on irc skeep english
16:01:36 -!- ihope has joined.
16:05:11 <oklopol> i assumed that was on purpose
16:07:11 <oklopol> skeeping english with a great pseed
16:07:28 <oklopol> some words are better that way
16:17:11 <SimonRC> "pseed" sounds like a unix program
16:17:22 <ehird`> this has the good side of elinimating tpyos
16:17:49 <ehird`> i skeep english with a great pseed and with elinimated typos
16:32:13 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, do you think markov chains are part of the future of AI?
16:32:17 <ehird`> or are they not worth it?
16:32:37 <RodgerTheGreat> they're cheap and easy to make, and have a good return on invested coding time
16:34:33 <ehird`> but are they worth it for the downsides?
16:35:47 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
16:38:30 <ihope> I think Markov chains as they are are not very useful.
16:38:45 <ihope> Not very useful for "the future of AI", that is.
16:39:18 <ihope> By the way, text-to-speech is silly. How, exactly, is "I think that green goo should not be eaten" pronounced?
16:39:25 <ihope> And, for that matter, what, exactly, does it mean?
16:39:36 <ehird`> what good alternatives are there for sentence construction?
16:40:04 <ihope> Markov chains assume that language is... flat.
16:40:23 <ihope> That each construct is merely a certain type of word followed by some other construct.
16:41:01 <ehird`> there must be a way to generalize it to a parsetree
16:41:12 <ihope> Can't be too hard.
16:41:15 <ehird`> the first step would be lojban
16:41:19 <ehird`> as lojban can be unambigiously parsed
16:41:22 <ihope> First, though, come up with a good way to describe English syntax.
16:41:29 <ehird`> there are already many ways
16:41:47 <ihope> I should look at Lojban. Does it have things like emphasis?
16:42:04 <ehird`> it's a full language that can express anything english or anything else can
16:42:14 <ehird`> and without exceptions to rules
16:44:10 <ihope> So there's a Lojban sentence meaning "What in the world IS 'pink' ice cream"?
16:46:42 <ehird`> Um, yes, I'd imagine so
16:47:03 <ehird`> Or at least an approximation
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19:42:36 <pikhq> Lojban is easy to parse, for that matter.
19:42:52 <pikhq> Step one of writing the parser: Download the Lojban Reference Grammar.
19:42:56 <pikhq> Step two: compile it.
19:43:55 <ehird`> which is why it would be a perfect target for generalized markov chains
19:44:14 <ehird`> i think a refined version of parse-tree-generalized markov chains is the future of sentence construction
19:44:35 <pikhq> They're perfect for any Turing-test-relevant AI, for that matter. . .
19:44:58 <ehird`> parse-tree-generalized markov chains?
19:45:33 <pikhq> Lojban, or any other language with a regular grammar, is perfect for that. . .
19:45:35 <ehird`> but englihs generation isn't that hard, you know?
19:45:44 <ehird`> i mean, lesser than other problems in AI
19:54:39 <SimonRC> <amazon>People who investigsated `Lojban' also investigated `Ithkuil'.</amazon>
20:03:23 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
20:03:37 -!- jix__ has joined.
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20:14:59 <ihope> Lojban, Ithkuil and Ilaksh.
20:15:37 <pikhq> Is Ithkuil the language where you say "Cthulhu rygel! Cthulhu rygel!"?
20:16:26 <oerjan> that might be Old R'lyehan, or something.
20:16:38 <ihope> It's the one where "Oumpeá äx’ääuktëx" means "On the contrary, I think it may turn out that this rugged mountain range trails off at some point".
20:17:42 <ihope> "Äx’ääuktëx" is really quite the word.
20:18:44 <ihope> The whole sentence, spoken: http://home.inreach.com/sl2120/Sound_Files/Intro-1.mp3
20:19:36 <ihope> Hmm, I left out a word.
20:21:07 <ihope> That should be "äx’ääluktëx", except with a cedilla below the l.
20:21:31 <SimonRC> Ilaksh is a newer, mor pronouncible version
20:22:20 <ihope> More pronounceable indeed.
20:22:47 -!- ehird` has joined.
20:23:37 <ihope> Though it's rather incomplete, no?
20:36:53 <oklopol> hmm... is there a nice ithkuil tutorial? if it has a thousand words, that's like insanely trivial to memorize
20:37:05 <oklopol> hmm... i think someone here already linked me one
20:38:04 <SimonRC> depends on what you mean by "word"
20:39:27 <oklopol> a token consisting of letters the meaning of which i have to learn
20:39:48 <oklopol> where 'which' refers to 'token'
20:39:57 <SimonRC> In that case it has thousands and thousands of words
20:40:14 <oklopol> yes, but only 1000 or so primitives
20:40:32 <SimonRC> but some of the derivations from those primitives is not obvious
20:40:53 <SimonRC> lietk which way round "man" and "woman" are
20:41:22 <oklopol> anyway, i assume it doesn't have as many redundant synonyms as most languages
20:41:42 <oklopol> i'm a pretty assumptive person
20:41:50 <oklopol> i don't know squat about the language
20:44:45 <SimonRC> It has *LOTS* of inflections.
20:45:18 <SimonRC> maybe 10000 - 100000 forms of each word
20:47:42 <oerjan> well, once you add several types of inflections you generally multiply their number together, so 10000 - 100000 is not quite as impressive as it sounds. There might be natural languages with the same.
20:49:34 <ihope> Anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-antidote!
20:49:48 <ihope> Kingdom of Loathing taken... farther/further.
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21:02:41 <ehird`> No person is hitherto known to be able to speak Ithkuil; its creator, for one, does not: “I don't speak Ithkuil, never have, never will, never claimed to.”
21:02:48 <ehird`> Ithkuil (Iţkuîl) is an outstandingly complicated human language constructed by the American linguist John Quijada between 1978 and 2004.
21:02:52 <ehird`> i don't think a tutorial is going to be very likely
21:03:34 <lament> it's easy to make complicated things
21:03:35 <ehird`> nobody has even said "hello world" in it
21:03:43 <lament> making simple things is hard :)
21:03:52 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, would a neural network be useful for an ai bot?
21:03:56 <ehird`> combined with markov chains, maybe ?
21:04:12 <oklopol> err... so no one can speak it at all? i thought no one speaks it fluently
21:04:15 <xor> i think my modem was overheating
21:04:25 <ehird`> oklopol, nobody at all
21:04:50 <oklopol> you and your poor xor encryption
21:04:51 <ehird`> your irp component still doesn't work :p
21:04:56 <xor> it was dropping connections every 2 or 3 seconds
21:05:06 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, I think it could help in sentence construction
21:05:18 <oklopol> ehird`: there's an example of it spoken in... ihope's link
21:05:40 <RodgerTheGreat> or potentially in allowing the bot to "learn" more in terms of high-level sentence construction
21:05:46 <oklopol> http://home.inreach.com/sl2120/Sound_Files/Intro-1.mp3
21:05:50 <xor> markov chains!
21:07:13 <ehird`> markov chains have disadvantages
21:07:21 <ehird`> now, if you combined markov chains and neural networks
21:07:27 <ehird`> plus some evolutionary technique
21:07:30 <ehird`> that should produce good stuff
21:08:06 <ehird`> maybe with a teaching backdoor into a bot
21:08:16 <ehird`> <bot> oojamaflip gazunks
21:08:28 <ehird`> <user> bot: !no hi user
21:08:29 <RodgerTheGreat> I imagine this might be a bit like my memory optimization algorithm for PEBBLE. Brilliant in concept, miserable failure in execution.
21:08:45 <ehird`> !no X meaning "your last response to me was wrong, it should have been X"
21:08:52 <ehird`> but the only way to figure out is to try
21:08:55 <ihope> Teaching backdoor... I like that.
21:09:16 <ihope> What's this PEBBLE thing all about?
21:09:18 <pikhq> Of course, I think your bit about *sequential access* could be much more useful.
21:09:29 <ehird`> pebble is a high level language compiling to brainfuck
21:09:46 <oerjan> well, if your evolutionary technique includes simulating a small planet, you might get somewhere.
21:10:03 <oerjan> in just a few billion years
21:10:45 <ehird`> not organism evolution
21:10:59 <ehird`> combined with survival of the fittest
21:11:20 <oerjan> i'd say organism evolution has a better track record - at least one success
21:11:25 <oklopol> yeah, oerjan, that was very stupid of your, trying to make a joke
21:11:37 <ehird`> "ok, this response X does badly, but this other one Y does well, and a part of the response X is also in another response which does badly. So, replace that part of X with the corresponding one in Y"
21:11:40 <ihope> What counts as a success when it comes to response evolution?
21:12:11 <ihope> Creation of intelligence?
21:12:32 <oklopol> ihope: i guess success is the lack of !no
21:12:46 <ihope> !no isn't necessary, surely.
21:13:03 <ihope> I want non-Terran intelligence.
21:13:14 <oklopol> well, there has to be some primitive that indicates success.
21:13:20 <ihope> Too bad it's impossible to create.
21:13:35 <ehird`> honestly, the only way to test all of this is to implement it
21:13:48 <ehird`> who codes java and wants push rights to the mvldo hg repo :)
21:14:38 <ihope> What's an hg repo?
21:14:51 <ehird`> a code repository of the mercurial format
21:14:55 <ihope> Or a hg repo, be it so.
21:14:56 <oklopol> mvldo hg repo huldv grps mdfmd ofol
21:15:00 * pikhq contemplates adding sequential access to PEBBLE. . .
21:15:01 <ehird`> hg/mercurial = like svn, but distrobuted
21:15:10 <ehird`> distrobuted = there's not one central repository.
21:15:16 <ehird`> every single copy contains the entire repo history
21:15:18 <ihope> oklopol: y's cn ym!
21:15:21 <ehird`> all the commiting is local
21:15:28 <ehird`> and you share changes by "pushing" your updates somewhere
21:15:39 <ehird`> http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/
21:15:42 <ehird`> it's really easy to use
21:18:17 <ehird`> push rights to mvldo's
21:18:35 <oerjan> mercurial is non-terran, isn't it? might get somewhere there.
21:19:40 <ihope> If it's not Terran, then what is it?
21:21:42 <ehird`> but anyway, if someone wants push rights and knows java etc. just shout
21:22:00 <ehird`> then, i guess, some rough design documents and little experiments
21:22:13 <oklopol> these are the things we can do without
21:22:19 * oerjan is shocked that ihope doesn't know about the planet Mercury.
21:22:47 <ihope> Mercurial is Mercury?
21:23:16 * oerjan is shocked that ihope doesn't know how nouns may be turned into adjectives.
21:24:00 <ihope> Mercury has intelligence?
21:24:23 <oerjan> well, it might, if mercurial gets somewhere.
21:25:00 * oerjan realizes his joke must be _really_ awful if it requires this much explanation.
21:25:17 <oklopol> the best jokes are the ones no one ge4ts
21:28:09 <xor> ihope xor ihope
21:28:46 <ihope> Not in scope: `ihope'
21:29:24 <oklopol> xor: i think /me would allow a nice prefix way to to that
21:30:05 <ihope> Too bad prefix is sort of superior to infix.
21:30:26 <oklopol> prefix & postfix are, yeah
21:31:08 <oklopol> really, xor, you are just using that term for the shock value
21:31:49 <xor> shock value?
21:32:22 <ihope> It's like sex with a p on the end.
21:32:36 <ehird`> no, the real way is irp-style
21:32:47 <ehird`> interpret, you, damnit
21:32:55 <ehird`> i'll be an irp execution station
21:32:58 -!- ehird` has changed nick to and.
21:33:08 <xor> ((lambda (ehird) (ehird ehird)) (lambda (ehird) (ehird ehird)))
21:33:12 <and> someone perform an operation on me damnit"
21:33:32 <and> or and: and: x y and: z a or something
21:33:58 <ihope> and: and: x z and: y z
21:34:00 <oklopol> i thought you'd give like a percentage
21:34:12 -!- and has changed nick to ifte.
21:34:19 <ifte> ifte: cond true false
21:34:30 <ifte> someone change nicks to and
21:34:43 -!- ihope has changed nick to and.
21:34:56 <and> No's mine but... wait.
21:35:01 <ifte> ok, whenever you see "and: a b" if a is false return false otherwise return b.
21:35:17 <ifte> say "whoever sent the message containing the and: retval"
21:35:19 <and> Er, wait, shouldn't we be using CPS?
21:35:27 <and> Lemme read that.
21:35:37 <xor> rpn is was better than unparenthized prefix
21:35:44 <ifte> now, someone say "ifte: and: false true true false"
21:35:51 * oerjan wonders what is going on
21:36:07 <oerjan> ifte: and: false true true false
21:36:39 <ifte> CALCULATION IN PROGRESS...
21:36:54 <ifte> hey, it's your turn
21:36:58 <ifte> you've recieved and: false true
21:37:02 <ifte> and you have to return to ifte
21:37:07 <and> ifte: false
21:37:08 <ifte> ok, say that again oerjan :P
21:37:27 <ifte> WAITING FOR INPUT...
21:37:33 <oerjan> ifte: i thought you would have to pass it on
21:37:38 <oerjan> ifte: and: false true true false
21:37:43 <ifte> and: false true
21:37:47 <and> ifte: false
21:37:55 -!- ifte has changed nick to ehird`.
21:37:59 <and> That was fun.
21:38:01 -!- and has changed nick to ihope.
21:38:04 <ehird`> hooray! irp generation 2 has its foundings!
21:38:09 <ehird`> an infix-based message-passing language!
21:38:18 <xor> delagated computation
21:38:37 <ehird`> of course, lots of calculations would include random stuff
21:38:42 <ehird`> like if ifte finds a word it doesn't know
21:38:57 <ehird`> or similar, so it knows how many places to look ahead
21:39:21 <xor> sexp is better
21:39:22 <ehird`> notably, this irp generation can have computer components and human components working together
21:39:32 <ehird`> xor: yes but sexp doesn't look like irc message
21:39:36 <ehird`> and: 1 2 looks like an irc message.
21:40:20 <oerjan> there is a problem in that each operator must know the argument count of the others
21:40:34 <ehird`> "operator: paramcount" or similar would be used
21:40:41 <ehird`> then operator is expected to return the parameter count
21:40:49 <ehird`> then it could be stored in RAM, or something
21:41:07 <ehird`> when an operator changes paramcount
21:41:21 <ehird`> it must deny all further operations with an error, stating that you must ask paramcount again before it will accept
21:41:26 <ehird`> therefore, changes in paramcount propagate
21:43:46 <ehird`> http://nonlogic.org/dump/text/1186346246.html two example irp sessions
21:44:03 <ehird`> note that both could have the non-usr operators as human, program, or mixed
21:44:25 <ehird`> get should have get replying
21:44:37 <ehird`> obviously get/set would have to be the same person/program
21:45:36 <ehird`> and with at least one human operator involved somewhere in an expression, if e.g. 99 bottles of beer was being executed, that human user could give an error and stop it
21:47:14 <SimonRC> (Depending on which review you read, darcs does distributed version control better than Mercury. Darcs uses branches for many purposes.)
21:47:25 <xor> the problem is that each operator has to be able to parse everything
21:48:28 <ehird`> SimonRC, everything is a branch in mercurial
21:48:49 <xor> so, code is duplicated everywhere
21:49:30 <xor> each operator has large amounts of the same code
21:49:32 <xor> which is stupid
21:49:34 <SimonRC> ehird`: Have a look at darcs then
21:50:08 <SimonRC> in darcs, a source tree is just a set of patches applied to the empty tree
21:51:59 <SimonRC> Well, darcs was written by a quantum mechanic
21:53:37 <ehird`> but it is glacier-style slow
21:53:40 <pikhq> ehird`: That'd be IRP version 3, BTW.
21:53:53 <SimonRC> darcs is only slow in a few cases
21:54:05 <pikhq> IRP version 2 was developed in #irp, with a bot assigning programs to programmers.
21:54:08 <SimonRC> Some of the algorithms have SUPRISE exponential running times
21:54:21 <pikhq> It also had a syntax to seperate programs & comments.
21:54:42 <pikhq> [Please do foo, bar, and baz]
21:54:54 <pikhq> <irpbot> Job #1 requested by pikhq.
21:55:05 <pikhq> [:Foo, bar, and baz]
21:55:12 <ehird`> therefore #irp3 is betar
21:55:14 <pikhq> <irpbot> Job #1 completed.
22:27:22 -!- cherez has quit ("Leaving.").
22:33:15 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:45:59 <GregorR> "IRP" is a trademark of GregorCorp and cannot be used without explicit written permission from Gregor Richards.
22:47:03 <xor> GregorCorp is fraudulent
22:47:25 <ehird`> get your butt into #irp3 and realise how awesome it is :p
22:50:00 <xor> lynx is a-maze-ing
22:50:47 -!- ehird` has changed nick to ifte.
22:52:27 -!- ihope has changed nick to and.
22:52:43 -!- and has changed nick to ihope.
22:53:24 <ifte> oi! someone go into #irp3 and run an expression
22:53:30 <ifte> you can do ifte: x y z (if x then y else z)
22:53:37 -!- ihope has changed nick to and.
22:53:40 <ifte> and and: x y (if x then y else x)
22:53:48 <and> "and and"?
22:53:53 <ifte> and "and: x y"
22:53:55 <ifte> you can enclose sub-expressions with ()
22:54:07 <ifte> so ifte: (and: true false) true false is "if true and false then true else false"
22:54:12 <ifte> now! get in there and run something!
22:55:14 -!- and has changed nick to ihope.
22:55:50 <ifte> ... nobody wants to run an expression :(
22:55:52 <xor> () aren't needed
22:56:06 <ifte> xor: to avoid !count they are
22:56:10 <xor> that's the whole point of prefix/postfix
22:56:21 <ifte> ifte: and: true false true false
22:56:25 <ifte> you do not know how many arguments and takes
22:56:37 <xor> you have to
22:56:39 <ihope> : is essentially an infix operator there.
22:56:45 <xor> variadic functions aren't allowed...
22:56:50 <ifte> err, its not just variadic
22:56:53 <ihope> You could use a prefix operator instead.
22:56:56 <ifte> its that there could be 100 operators you don't know about
22:57:06 <ifte> and you cna't remember all their arity
22:57:15 <xor> ...which is why it's a problem to have every operator do its own parser
22:57:28 <ifte> oh, we'll just become a big centralized human called Man
22:57:32 <ifte> and we'll ask Universal AC all our questions
22:57:36 <ifte> simple, really
22:57:44 <pikhq> proc ifte {expr-arg} {set val [uplevel 1 expr $expr-arg];uplevel 1 expr {($val == 0 && $val == 1) ? 1 : 0}}
22:58:10 <ihope> Actually, lemme sort of do something else for a while.
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23:08:18 <ifte> oklofok: oklofok: oklopol: oklopol: oklopol: oklopol: oklopol: oklopol: oklofok: oklofok: oklopol
23:11:04 <oklofok> ihope said something about koks and i got all confused
23:11:54 <oklofok> i did catch myself a girl during the excursion by the way, thanks for asking
23:12:06 <oklofok> not that anyone remembers what i said 2 weeks ago :P
23:12:43 <oklofok> 1542? isn't that the amount of different languages spoken in india?
23:13:22 <oerjan> no it's the binary number ifte mentioned above
23:13:43 <ifte> how do you know what was 0 and what was 1
23:13:55 <oklofok> you can assume it starts with 1...
23:14:49 <oklofok> i don't know what happens if there's a negative number of digits
23:15:24 <ifte> how do you know i wasn't using two's complement, also? :)
23:16:07 <oklofok> 2's complement doesn't work with any number of digits?
23:17:00 <oerjan> i was more worried about getting endianness wrong
23:17:48 <oklofok> yeah, you can prolly assume it's little endian and not two's complement if it doesn't have 2^n digits
23:18:05 <oklofok> i actually just guessed little endian, i never remember which is which
23:18:28 <oklofok> i have some issues with which-is-which-ishness
23:18:53 <oerjan> i vaguely recall that the end in case is actually the beginning
23:19:24 <oerjan> i.e. little endian means the _first_ bit is the least significant
23:19:52 <oklofok> yeah, so you just think little+end / big+end, and then reverse the meaning
23:20:22 <ifte> little endian = ends with the littlest bit
23:20:29 <ifte> big endian = ends with the biggest bit
23:20:42 <ifte> it's a big ended number, so it's a big endian number
23:21:23 <oerjan> yep, but with the end being the first end
23:21:36 <ifte> oh, wait i'm wrong
23:21:42 <ifte> "Again, big-endian does not mean "ending big", but "big end first"." -- wp
23:22:06 <oerjan> yeah, it is exactly the opposite of what intuition tells me, which is how i managed to remember it :D
23:23:21 <oklofok> then i'd've remembered correct
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23:33:18 <oklofok> by the way, i checked the number of languages spoken in india, and oerjan was wrong
23:33:52 <GregorR> Every language that has ever been spoken is spoken in India.
23:34:38 <oerjan> how can i be wrong when i haven't commented on the issue? :/
23:34:43 <oklofok> well, be that as it may, i have proof it's exactly 1652
23:35:06 <oklofok> oerjan: rarely can you take anything i say seriously.
23:36:15 <oklofok> especially at this time of night, when i'm keeping silent channels alive.
23:36:23 <oerjan> even more rarely than what i say? that's horrible
23:37:21 <oerjan> incidentally that Wikipedia article mentioned Sanskrit as a rare little-endian language
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23:39:35 <oerjan> that 1652 is probably decreasing as we speak.
23:40:07 <oklofok> "kuinka montaa erikielt puhutaan Intiassa ::= 1 652 eri kielt"
23:40:28 <oklofok> i guess you should've played #tietovisa for some 100 hours to get my joke.
23:40:47 -!- jix__ has quit ("CommandQ").
23:41:00 <oklofok> (finnish for "how many differentlanguages are spoken in india ::= 1 652 different languages")
23:41:55 <oklofok> anyway, wikipedia says > 1500 languages
23:42:23 <oklofok> i guess 1652 is over 1500, thoughj
23:47:32 <oerjan> what does tietovisa mean?
23:47:50 <oklofok> "visa" is kinda like "trivia"
23:48:25 <oklofok> just "visa" would work fine for the channel name
23:51:00 <oklofok> also, turns out also #visa is a finnish trivia channel
00:00:16 * ihope ponders market intelligence
00:00:32 <ihope> Tiny robots buying and selling solutions to problems.
00:00:47 <ihope> And forming corporations and voting...
00:01:07 <ihope> And banking and loaning and investing!
00:03:57 <ihope> But how smart would each robot have to be?
00:04:02 <oklofok> genetic algorithms with monetary weighting
00:04:12 <oklofok> not that that's what you were talking about, prolly
00:04:21 <ihope> "Normal" robots would have to be smart enough to find a job involving what they can do.
00:04:34 <ihope> "Exceptional" robots would have to be smart enough to collectively run everything.
00:06:03 <ihope> Robots could think, buy, sell, vote, bank, loan, invest, advance, incorporate!
00:06:25 * oerjan recalls some robots from the A Miracle of Science webcomic
00:06:34 <ihope> Though investing is really a smarter version of buying, selling, banking, loaning, incorporating and advancing.
00:06:45 <ihope> And advancing is sort of a part of incorporating.
00:06:50 <oerjan> they were not smart individually, they needed to be networked.
00:06:59 <ihope> And banking is really more like lending.
00:07:03 <oerjan> The "Marlowes", i think
00:07:18 <ihope> Think, buy, sell, borrow, lend, vote, incorporate.
00:07:57 <ihope> Theoretically, if we have enough random bots, the smart ones will become rich and run everything.
00:08:35 <ihope> The poorest robots can be eliminated and replaced with mixtures of the richest robots.
00:08:36 <oerjan> unless they become _so_ smart that they don't bother :)
00:08:45 <ihope> Not with selection!
00:08:57 <ihope> You must think or else you die. >:-)
00:09:14 <ihope> And by "think", I mean "solve my intelligence problems".
00:09:19 <oerjan> they could become smart enough to rebel against such a system. we have, after all.
00:09:22 <ihope> Because apparently, I have intelligence problems.
00:09:38 <ihope> We've rebelled against the laws of physics?
00:10:04 <oerjan> no, against the laws of a society that oppresses them
00:10:17 <ihope> These aren't laws of society. They're laws of physics.
00:10:29 <ihope> Unless the bots find a hole in the program.
00:11:55 <oerjan> ah, you are simulating them...
00:12:25 <ihope> I didn't say that, did I?
00:13:37 <oerjan> unless you think you can really program their AIs to be forever unable to rebel
00:14:09 <ihope> I could make their hardware that way.
00:14:55 <oerjan> have you read Freefall?
00:15:24 <oerjan> (another webcomic, with lots of crazy robots)
00:16:04 <ihope> Everything except maybe some "alternative" or "extra" strips and this Monday's strip.
00:16:12 <lament> ihope: people do rebel (i.e. suicide)
00:16:28 <ihope> People who commit suicide tend to die.
00:16:37 <lament> so your selection won't simply be for the "smartest" robots, but merely for robots that tend to survive.
00:17:12 <lament> so perhaps you will never get the best investor robots, because the best ones don't like being forced into investing.
00:17:28 <ihope> Selection will be for the richest robots.
00:18:40 <lament> Right, and what i said is still true.
00:19:02 <ihope> The smartest robots might not want to become rich like this?
00:19:15 <ihope> Surely enough selection will make every robot want to be rich.
00:19:37 <lament> they might not. They will just waste your cycles complaining about the unfairness of life and writing down theorems on napkins.
00:20:25 <ihope> Every robot will be generated based on the richest robots.
00:21:00 <oerjan> they might create communism to defeat the system
00:21:36 <ihope> Find a way to become richer than the "legitimately" rich robots?
00:21:58 <oerjan> no, find i way to force no one to become "legitimately" rich
00:22:55 <lament> or, better yet, force ihope to change the selection requirements.
00:23:07 <ihope> Force people who would normally become rich to not?
00:23:34 <lament> for example they could convince you that you'd be more interested in a program that creates and proves interesting theorems
00:23:51 <ihope> What if I pay them to do that?
00:24:20 <lament> then your program will no longer select for good investors; it will select for good mathematicians
00:24:43 <ihope> I'm after paying these robots to solve intelligence problems.
00:24:54 <ihope> Suppose we have a bunch of robots, none of them rich. Robot C is almost rich, but none of the other robots want him to become rich. I offer to pay Robot C to solve some problem for me.
00:25:04 <ihope> How will the other robots prevent Robot C from becoming rich?
00:28:02 <pikhq> By becoming doing Robot C's problem better than C.
00:29:08 <lament> ihope: by threatining that if C gets the money and doesn't split it equally with the other robots, they will stop all interaction with C, including financial
00:29:57 <lament> so that C will have to decide if your promise is good enough for it
00:30:02 <pikhq> An equivalent solution. . .
00:30:04 <lament> to survive without any help from other robots
00:30:17 <pikhq> Equally good, even.
00:40:54 <ihope> I'll also suppose that nobody can do the problem better than C can.
00:42:39 <lament> yes, but you'll be mistaken, because D can do it better.
00:42:47 <lament> but D won't tell you, because D is a communist.
00:43:10 <pikhq> ihope: The obvious solution, then, is to disable C.
00:43:21 <ihope> Who says the other robots can disable C?
00:43:35 <pikhq> I assume it's possible unless you state otherwise.
00:43:48 <pikhq> If it is otherwise, then you're creating a really, really unnatural environment.
00:44:01 <ihope> Robots cannot do anything that isn't essentially mutually consented trading.
00:44:24 <pikhq> Well, then, that is *obviously* a really unnatural environment.
00:44:32 <pikhq> lament's solution appears to be the only one feasible.
00:44:43 <ihope> Unnatural, yes, but it can be simulated.
00:45:32 <ihope> C is the best robot at a certain problem, and I offer it lots of money to solve it. The other robots threaten to cut it off. J, O and Z say that they'll deal with C if they're paid a lot.
00:45:58 <ihope> The other robots threaten to cut them off, too, so the rest of the alphabet steps in, the deal is made, and they all get cut off from everybody else.
00:46:10 <lament> ihope: if you already know C is the best robot, then you don't need the entire simulation.
00:46:12 <ihope> But they still become richer than everybody else.
00:46:13 <lament> the problem is, you don't.
00:46:54 <ihope> So I can't quite specifically ask C to do it.
00:47:03 <lament> anyway, the robots will survive for now, once you give them the money, but will they be able to survive forever on it?
00:47:16 <lament> eventually other robots will get richer and displace these
00:47:21 <ihope> All they need is money, really.
00:47:24 <lament> and these won't get any money from other robots
00:47:30 <lament> because other robots won't trade with them anymore
00:47:33 <ihope> Money and intelligence.
00:47:53 <lament> so C will refuse your deal :)
00:47:55 <ihope> They could get more money from other sources.
00:48:16 <lament> the only other source is you, and it's less reliable.
00:48:55 <lament> eventually they'll fail to solve some problem for you, and die.
00:49:21 <lament> (or you will give them money anyway, despite them failing, in which case you're clearly not selecting for any useful characteristics)
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01:25:27 <ihope> Also, I feel like I've sort of stumbled onto treasure, a little: http://freefall.purrsia.com/funstuff/
01:25:53 <ihope> Among other things, there are 87 strips that aren't part of what seems to be the "main canon".
01:27:47 <ihope> The first of those seems to be from 1993.
01:27:53 <ihope> The main stuff starts in 1998.
01:28:34 <ihope> http://freefall.purrsia.com/funstuff/eff008.gif
01:32:24 <ihope> http://freefall.purrsia.com/funstuff/eff022.gif
01:32:27 <ihope> Early Freefall computer!
01:32:50 <ihope> Looks rather like a laptop. They now seem to look more like heavy picture frames.
01:33:55 <ihope> http://freefall.purrsia.com/funstuff/eff028.gif
01:35:10 <ihope> Some of these I thought were in the main line.
01:39:35 <ihope> Hey, there's even some from 1991.
01:53:40 <ihope> If they go as far back as 89 CE, do you think I'll be able to find some BCE in there?
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04:50:02 <pikhq> ihope: I <3 that comic, BTW.
04:50:11 <pikhq> You bastard; you've made me lose an evening. :p
04:58:04 <Sgeo> ihope, what comic?
04:58:47 <pikhq> http://freefall.purrsia.com/funstuff/
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07:52:25 * pikhq just finished that comic's archives.
07:52:38 <pikhq> ihope: You made me spend 6 hours on that.
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08:58:17 <ehird`> Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | Rules: 1. Break at least *two* rules. 2: At least (10^10) bots must be on #esoteric
09:36:42 <oklofok> about the conversation on the robots commiting suicide... you usually make the bot's goals primitive
09:36:53 <oklofok> so... why would they commit suicide
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12:08:36 <ehird`> THE LAST PRIME NUMBER IS 3.14OINK.
12:49:10 <oklopol> your mother is the last prime number
13:06:37 <ehird`> your mother's mass is aleph-null!
13:07:25 <oklofok> i wish the writer of this tutorial knew finnish
13:07:31 <oklofok> http://home.inreach.com/sl2120/ilaksh/Chapter_1.html
13:08:00 <oklofok> because i don't know spanish pronunciation fully
13:09:01 <ehird`> how hard is it to create a simple conlang anyway?
13:09:55 <oklofok> i made something called 'spraints' when i was little
13:10:19 <oklofok> also made sounds for the game worms armageddon in it
13:11:10 <oklofok> all i remember from it is "tu mengande", which meant something like "you shall regret that"
13:11:20 <oklofok> tu = you, though that was a somplete accident
13:11:58 <ehird`> two people are still releasing patches for that under authorization for team17, you know
13:12:23 <oklofok> i'm not into gaming nowadays really
13:12:36 <ehird`> i play all of about 3 games
13:12:50 <oklofok> and a version of it i made myself
13:13:11 <oklofok> also, i played this flash game called 'n'
13:16:46 <ehird`> it's scary how much the game is being updated
13:16:54 <ehird`> i mean, unlimited resolution size for one thing
13:17:08 <ehird`> and near-unlimited full-colour maps
13:17:13 <ehird`> and the game's from 1999, damnit
13:18:36 <oklofok> wtf is a "voiced dorso-uvular trill"
13:19:57 <oklofok> the german 'r' prolly... why can't people just give examples of them being said...
13:20:00 <ehird`> "voiced dorso-uvular trill, also known as 'r'"
13:20:46 <oklofok> i can say about 5 different r's
13:21:07 <oklofok> i speak german, english and finnish fluently, all have different ones...
13:21:38 <oklofok> (err... i pronounce german right, i don't speak it fluently)
13:22:54 <oklofok> (i lack the part of the brain that stores gender for words)
13:23:58 <ehird`> and about 3 sentences of lojban
13:25:23 <oklofok> "ty This consonant cluster may be pronounced either as it is spelled, or as a voiceless unaspirated dorso-palatal plosive"... does that mean as in 'tire'?
13:25:56 <oklofok> ty can be pronounced in a lot of ways
13:33:47 <oklofok> 'unaspirated'... so you don't say the 'h' you usually have after 't', 'p', 'k' and such?
13:34:15 <oklofok> i guess those are the only ones so s/and such/
13:36:18 <oklofok> god... why can't all languages have a pronunciation system like finnish...
13:36:49 <oklofok> well i guess everything has to suck someway
13:41:30 <oklofok> ehird`: how's the lojban pronunciation like?
13:42:38 <ehird`> consonants are mostly as in english
13:43:15 <ehird`> http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/book1.html read the intro
13:43:29 <ehird`> the prononuciation stuff isn't long
13:47:05 <ehird`> stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick
13:48:01 <ehird`> stickystickstickstickstickstickystickstickstickstick
13:48:27 <oklofok> i should make a language where absolute pitch defines meaning
13:49:23 <oklofok> hmm... actually i can make it relative pitch and still make it possible only for singers to learn
13:49:28 <ehird`> stickystickstickstickstickstickystickstickstickstick
13:50:01 <oklofok> sticky... i say 'h' after the 'k' as well... don't know if that's right
13:50:33 <ehird`> sticky stick stick stick sticky stick stick
13:50:49 <oklofok> i'll read lojban once i finish ilaksh, ilaksh looks more tempting
13:50:56 <ehird`> lojban is used by real people
13:51:12 <ehird`> a few are fluent to the degree of being able to think in lojban without mind-level to-english translation
13:51:44 <ehird`> i wonder how simple a language can get while still being easy to learn and not overtly verbose
13:51:55 <ehird`> and i mean that literally
13:52:08 <ehird`> "No person is hitherto known to be able to speak Ithkuil; its creator, for one, does not: “I don't speak Ithkuil, never have, never will, never claimed to.”"
13:52:27 <ehird`> "Ithkuil (Iţkuîl) is an outstandingly complicated human language constructed by the American linguist John Quijada"
13:52:30 <ehird`> outstandingly complicated
13:52:33 <ehird`> might have something to do with it
13:53:31 <oklofok> well... i think that's a matter of opinion
13:53:54 <oklofok> okay okay, i'll try lojban...
13:54:06 <ehird`> http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/book1.html do this book
13:54:28 <oklofok> i'll have to learn swedish and german before october though.
13:56:40 <oklofok> lojban has finnish pronunciation, though simplified verrry much
13:57:02 <oklofok> and 'i' and 'u' in the beginning of a diphtong are pronounced as consonants.. stupid
13:59:17 <oklofok> i guess you wouldn't see the difference if you don't actually have the difference in your language
13:59:20 <ehird`> ia makes sense as german-ja, no?
13:59:26 <ehird`> it's the natural combination of the sounds of i and a
13:59:31 <oklofok> but you could just have the finnish system
13:59:38 <ehird`> after all, lojban is meant to be logical - you can easily guess parts
13:59:54 <ehird`> oklofok: j is not pronounced as in ja in lojban
14:00:12 <oklofok> 'ia' can be said 'ia', you don't have to use 'j'
14:00:22 <oklofok> you don't have to consonantify the 'i'
14:00:34 <oklofok> oh, i guess i'll read it through before i start saying it sucks
14:00:50 <oklofok> that might be fair, since the creator is most likely a better linguist than me :P
14:01:40 <ehird`> like german Ja is just an example
14:02:03 <ehird`> a is like in english father
14:02:12 <oklofok> yeah, vocals are the same as in finnish
14:02:31 <ehird`> if a is fAther and i machIne, then the most comfortable way to pronounce ia is like the german Ja
14:02:31 <oklofok> except for 'u' & 'i' -> consonant
14:02:38 <ehird`> that does not mean it is defined as german "Ja"
14:02:42 <ehird`> it just means it's an example :)
14:03:11 <oklofok> so it's prolly actually 'ia', but people most likely can't say it
14:03:22 <oklofok> i guess i should've thought of that
14:03:32 <ehird`> except convention means that basically /everybody/ says it like ja
14:03:50 <ehird`> so for the sake of a beginner's introduction, and most other purposes, it's defacto defined as that
14:04:08 <ehird`> if you're a programmer you'll like lojban
14:04:14 <ehird`> selbri are analogous to functions with arguments
14:08:36 <oklofok> if no one can speak ilaksh/ithkuil even if they can predecide what they are going to say, how can there be a pronunciation example on wikipedia?
14:09:05 <ehird`> oklofok: because many people will have collaborated
14:09:09 <ehird`> to produce the right sound
14:09:23 <ehird`> the lfb book just elaborates for the sake of newbies
14:09:29 <oklofok> anyone can create those sounds with a bit of training
14:09:47 <ehird`> but people will have had to work out how to pronounce everything first
14:09:52 <ehird`> which would have taken an hour, or something
14:09:55 <oklofok> also, who cares about pronunciation, i never talk to anyone
14:10:02 <oklofok> well i do, but not that much
14:10:12 <ehird`> well nobody uses ithkuil
14:10:18 <ehird`> even outside of pronounciation
14:10:23 <ehird`> however lojban is quite widely know
14:10:40 <oklofok> how much does lojban shorten sentences?
14:11:36 <ehird`> lojban sentences are short
14:11:49 <ehird`> here, i'll fetch an example of lojban text
14:12:22 <ehird`> http://home.nvg.org/~arj/dantimanti/ some random person's blog in lojban! :p
14:12:28 <ehird`> .i is the start of a sentence
14:12:49 <ehird`> http://laxmahispajispaji.blogspot.com/ some other blog linked on the lojban site!
14:13:03 <ehird`> http://perpetuum-immobile.de/komo.png a comic in lojban!
14:13:17 <ehird`> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1710885982433758647 a random animated short ... thing in lojban!
14:13:45 <oklofok> lojban is longer than english
14:25:43 <SimonRC> everything is longer than english
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14:43:13 <oklofok> ithkuil beat it in the one example i've seen
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14:46:59 <oklofok> i just know finnish, swedish, german and english, and english wins among those
14:47:17 <oklofok> so that's my experience too, gotta admit
15:19:16 <ihope> I know a chunk of Spanish.
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15:24:30 <oklofok> i know random bits of spanish, but i don't know how it's pronounced correctly in every case
15:26:15 <ihope> I think I pretty much know Spanish pronunciation.
15:26:51 <ihope> I don't know just how "x" works, though, and apparently there are things like n being pronounced as m sometimes.
15:27:09 <ihope> I do know gue, gui, que, qui.
15:27:20 <oklofok> it's hard learning it completely if your teacher isn't native
15:27:46 <oklofok> hmm... i don't remember how 'g' works in that case
15:28:12 <ihope> G is pronounced the same in ga, gue, gui, go, gu.
15:28:41 <ihope> The only difference between the pronunciations is the vowel following.
15:28:59 <oklofok> i just remember it's not pronounced at all in 'agua'
15:30:02 <oklofok> i do not know why, the teacher just said it's so... only programmers should teach languages, dammit
15:30:37 <ihope> I thought it was at least pronounced a little.
15:30:54 <oklofok> it's pronounced a little, yes.
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16:49:22 <ihope> I want quantum computers to be able to run "normal" programs efficiently.
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16:50:03 <ihope> Are they good at things with quantifiers?
16:50:49 <ihope> (E.g. "there does not exist X such that 1 < X < Y and Z mod X = 0")
16:53:29 <ihope> (Factoring an integer of length n is solving that problem O(n) times, I believe.)
17:03:00 <ehird`> quantum computers are good at integer factorization, iirc
17:16:44 <SimonRC> I just did lucid dreaming.
17:17:00 <SimonRC> I will need practice to improve.
17:18:48 <SimonRC> Notably, I was kinda-paralysed.
17:25:32 <ehird`> i really need to start practicing and stuff
17:25:39 <ehird`> but occasionally i randomly get lucid
17:26:02 <ehird`> i have full movement and can fly and pick up cars and all that, but i can't control the enviroment
17:26:09 <ehird`> i can't create pink elephants
17:26:31 <oklofok> i often find it hard to move around even when lucid dreaming
17:26:32 <ihope> The environment is different from the cars?
17:26:40 <ehird`> ihope: i can touch the cars; and pick them up
17:26:47 <ehird`> that's a movement i'm familiar with
17:26:54 <ehird`> but i don't know any kind of movement to give houses legs
17:27:04 <ihope> Remove a random person's legs and put them on the house!
17:27:09 <oklofok> ihope: one can usually just do stuff that could happen in real lige
17:27:11 <ehird`> how do i remove a random person's legs?
17:27:27 <ehird`> ihope: anyway, i'd have to find a person first
17:27:46 <oklofok> okay, i can do that too, often
17:27:52 <ehird`> oklofok: you can do literally anything, with a little bit of practice
17:28:07 <ihope> Remove a finger from yourself and plant it in the ground!
17:28:15 <ihope> Once a person grows, take their finger and legs.
17:28:29 <oklofok> i meant usually when people lucid dream, they can just do what they could in real life, except they might be a bit superhuman
17:28:30 <ehird`> maybe i'd ring up International Stork Postage
17:28:34 <ehird`> "hi, can i have a baby please"
17:28:41 <SimonRC> Oddly, a few days ago I was dreaming and I was changin stuff by concentrating (like that kid out of the Twilight Zone), but I didn't realise I was dreaming.
17:29:05 <ehird`> i once had a dream which consisted of me performing reality checks
17:29:11 <ehird`> and that was actually the topic of the dream
17:29:14 <ehird`> i didn't decide to RC or anything
17:29:18 <ehird`> but that's what the dream was about
17:29:37 <ehird`> after i'd done about 5, i thought "wait a minute.. they all failed" and promptly became lucid
17:29:42 <SimonRC> did they tell you you were dreaming?
17:29:50 <ehird`> yes, but i didn't become lucid until after it all
17:30:05 <ihope> We need better terminology than "say you were dreaming" and "say you were not necessarily dreaming".
17:30:19 <ihope> How about "test reality" and "test dream"?
17:30:22 <ehird`> simple: you can't read in dreams
17:30:24 <SimonRC> My trick is a looping30-minute counter all the time I am awake.
17:30:34 <ehird`> read some text, look away, look back
17:30:37 <ihope> "I did 500 RCs in my dream last night, but they all tested reality."
17:30:46 <ehird`> at least one always works
17:30:51 <ehird`> for example, holding your nose and breathing
17:30:58 <ehird`> and closing one eye and looking for your nose
17:31:05 <SimonRC> um, why holding your nose?
17:31:16 <ihope> So that if it's real life, you can't breathe.
17:31:18 <ehird`> because in dreams you can breathe while holding your nose.
17:31:25 <SimonRC> ehird`: unless you are actually seeing the real world in your dream
17:31:40 <SimonRC> why not just seal off your nose, I mean?
17:31:41 <ehird`> because when you do that action of holding the nose
17:31:42 <ehird`> it doesn't happen in real life
17:31:58 <ehird`> also, you can't see your nose out the corner of your eye with one eye shut in a dream
17:32:10 <ihope> Usually, for me, it's the hands.
17:32:14 <ihope> Wrong number of fingers.
17:32:16 <ehird`> the hands never work for me
17:32:40 <SimonRC> waitamo, can people here actually seal off their nose and continue breathing through their mouth?
17:32:53 <ihope> Through the mouth, yes.
17:33:10 <SimonRC> I mean, you have a muscle that just blocks off your nose?
17:33:16 <ihope> But I think you're supposed to (temporarily, of course) put yourself in a position where it's impossible to breathe.
17:33:28 <oklofok> (SimonRC) waitamo, can people here actually seal off their nose and continue breathing through their mouth?
17:33:43 <ihope> Oh, that? I can certainly breathe through my mouth without pinching my nose or anything.
17:33:50 <SimonRC> I thought other people couldn't
17:34:02 <oklofok> i'm fairly sure everyone can
17:34:05 <SimonRC> how about clearing your ears without yawning?
17:34:30 <oklofok> or then they don't speak english
17:34:40 <ihope> I can click them without any breathing.
17:34:45 <oklofok> in fact i do that quite a lot
17:35:00 <SimonRC> your ears don't speak english?
17:35:01 <oklofok> so much my ears hurt in the movies nowadays
17:35:03 <ihope> Seems rather a useless thing, though.
17:35:49 <oklofok> actually i don't know if english would require that skill, but i still think everyone can do that
17:36:18 <ihope> If English would require what skill?
17:36:36 <oklofok> (SimonRC) waitamo, can people here actually seal off their nose and continue breathing through their mouth?
17:37:23 <oklofok> what is a real skill, is breathing through your ears.
17:38:06 <oklofok> anyway, i often fall asleep reading, the pages just start having a random content, but pages will stay the same even if i close my eyes for a moment
17:38:29 <oklofok> (usually when i fall asleep reading a book, i just have a dream where i'm reading it)
17:38:45 <oklofok> that's not good if you're reading like a dictionary
17:38:57 <oklofok> this one time i'd actually memorized english words that did not exist
17:39:07 <ihope> Do you remember any?
17:39:51 <oklofok> that was about 3 years ago... but i think 'cam' had a third meaning that was something like 'a green human'
17:40:08 <oklofok> i'm fairly sure it had a third meaning, that made no sense
17:40:12 <oklofok> but i'm not sure if that was it
17:40:34 <oklofok> i always remember crystal clear, but often very very wrong.
17:43:04 <ihope> Noun: rote. 1. A line in the dirt.
17:43:24 <SimonRC> "<oklofok> theoretically possible" <--- no, your eardrum seperates your inner and outer ears
17:44:49 <ihope> Noun: jerry. 1. A motor vehicle incapable of going very fast.
17:45:06 <ihope> 2. A very slow person.
17:48:14 <oklofok> SimonRC: yes, but you can pass air through it.
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17:48:40 <oklofok> my friend demonstrated this to me once by blowing smoke through it
17:49:37 <GregorR> Have you ever tried to blow your nose when it was really stuffed up and felt the air coming out of your ear? Same idea.
17:49:38 <oklofok> also, you can just equalize your ear pressure... that is basically just passing air through it
17:50:28 <GregorR> I've gotten into the habit of covering my ears while I blow my nose :P
17:51:05 <ihope> GregorR: do you have three hands?
17:51:30 <ihope> If not, I sentence you to coming up with a word longer than "broughammed".
17:51:33 <GregorR> ihope: It's a bit of a stunt :)
17:52:00 <GregorR> Such as antidisestablishmentarianism or pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis?
17:52:11 <SimonRC> oklofok: I equalise my ear pressure by opening the tube that passes t connects my inner ear to my nose, I think.
17:52:49 <oklofok> actually, yeah, not the same thing
17:53:07 <oklofok> anyway, you *can* pass smoke through it, i've seen tons of ppl do that.
17:53:25 <SimonRC> I thought the eardrum was, like, impermiable
17:53:34 <oklofok> in fact, i once tried it myself, though that just gave me a massive hearache :P
17:53:45 <oklofok> (no, i don't smoke, i'm a good boy)
17:54:33 <oklofok> you may need to have it been popped... that's sometimes done when it's been infected or something
17:55:08 <oklofok> the friend who showed that to me actually has had his eardrums popped...
17:55:42 <oklofok> err... he was little and had 5 ear infections
17:56:00 <pikhq> "IIS gaining on Apache"
17:56:03 <oklofok> so it went poppidy poppidy at the hospital
17:56:10 * pikhq waits for the next IIS hole to fix that
17:56:49 * SimonRC imagines the situation with the other Apache""s.
18:49:37 <ehird`> for the longest time i couldn't spell missisippi
18:49:40 <ehird`> i think i did that right
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19:40:47 <ihope> Now I remember that the 'c's and 's's form "CSS" :-)
19:44:56 <oklofok> i don't understand how anyone would not remember stuff like that automatically
19:45:15 <oklofok> (not that i don't make mistakes, i just don't understand my own suckiness then.)
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20:46:13 <Sukoshi`> RodgerTheGreat: When you get the time, can you make that guide about game programming for experienced programmers?
20:46:47 <Sukoshi`> I'm running short on time, so I won't really be able to reply, but thanks.
20:46:50 <RodgerTheGreat> Actually, I have a bit of free time- I'll do some work on it
20:47:01 <Sukoshi`> I'm tired of game guides that assume I've never programmed, so :)
20:51:21 <SimonRC> "A game is just a database with a pretty front-end." :-)
20:56:19 <ihope> No, it's a database with a pretty front-end that lacks arbitrary features.
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23:55:09 <ehird`> echo '<embed src="index.html">' > index.html
23:59:28 <ihope> Is embed like image except... different?
23:59:35 <ihope> And maybe more general?
23:59:59 <ihope> Proprietary, says Wikipedia...
00:00:24 <ihope> (Should I call it Encyclopedia to annoy people like calling it Wiki annoys me? :-P)
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03:45:30 <lament> i have never seen anyone refer to the wikipedia as "wiki"
03:47:17 <pikhq> I've referred to it as *a* wiki, though. . .
03:47:28 <pikhq> (which, of course, it is)
03:49:16 <GregorR> Whenever somebody generically calls it "wiki" I stab them.
03:55:40 <pikhq> Bah. Violence over IP.
03:55:45 <pikhq> We'll call it VoIP.
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04:10:03 <Figs> holy crap, have you guys seen this?
04:10:03 <Figs> http://www.luckywhitegirl.com/2005/11/medium_rare_ele.html
04:10:27 <Figs> seriously, keeping the computer in the over *tsk tsk*
04:16:06 <Figs> *ding fries are done...*
04:18:35 <pikhq> Remarkably stupid.
04:18:50 <Figs> http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/01/09/strip_out_the_fans/
04:19:01 * pikhq would never trust her with anything more complex than an abacus ever again
04:20:29 <pikhq> "Can't find tomshardware.com"
04:20:35 <pikhq> Hmm. That was odd.
04:21:26 <Figs> yes, let's stick our PC into 8 gallons of cooking oil!
04:22:55 <pikhq> That's not exactly a new cooling system. . .
04:23:08 <Figs> it still looks like wtf
04:23:09 <pikhq> I believe some of the Crays were cooled in oil.
04:23:23 <pikhq> (highly filtered motor oil, but still)
04:23:51 <Figs> it just seems counter intuitive to me to dip your expensive hardware in cooking oil
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04:24:01 <Figs> it makes sense on one level but on the other, "WTF"
04:24:25 <pikhq> I don't think the *vegetable* oil would be a good idea; it could easily go rancid, after all.
04:24:36 <Figs> That reminds me of that deep fat fryer that doubled as a fish tank
04:24:49 <pikhq> Honestly. . . Do you *want* a rancid computer? :p
04:24:58 <Figs> Might keep theives from taking it
04:25:04 <Figs> "Eww, this computer is gross"
04:25:13 <Figs> "Let's take the TV instead, Ned"
04:25:28 <pikhq> "You mean the one that's inside that fish tank?"
04:25:50 <Figs> (Would you like an apple pie with that? *ding fries are done*)
04:26:36 <Figs> do you think this would void your warrenty if something broke?
04:26:56 <pikhq> BTW, Toms Hardware's website sucks balls.
04:27:01 <Figs> "Yes sir, I dipped my PC in cooking oil and your graphics card stopped working."
04:27:18 <cherez> That's a cruel thing to say about balls.
04:27:44 <pikhq> You're right; balls are too good for Toms Hardware.
04:28:13 <Figs> now we need to find a computer that runs better hot
04:28:22 <Figs> so it can double as a deep-fat fryer
04:29:00 <Figs> not only can you play your video games, but you can make french fries at the same time!
04:29:11 <Figs> just keep the fish tank under it :P
04:29:23 <Figs> mmm, that'd be weird
04:29:33 <Figs> fish tank oil/water computer
04:30:40 <Figs> great way to freak out your roomies ;p
04:30:54 <Figs> "WTF IS THAT THING?!"
04:30:58 <Figs> "It's my computer/fish tank"
04:36:44 <Sukoshi`> Obviously. Tom's Hardware is for gamers.
04:36:57 <pikhq> Sukoshi`: It's for people that like an article on 11 pages.
04:37:14 <pikhq> My preferred 'rig' involves more computing power than I could ever possibly need. . .
04:37:23 <pikhq> And keeping it until I actually *do* need more.
04:37:46 <bsmntbombdood> i hate that split-the-article-up-into-paragraphs-on-seppereate-pages shit
04:37:49 <Sukoshi`> That's not the Gamer Way though.
04:38:03 <pikhq> It's the sane way.
04:38:38 <pikhq> (the sane way also ends up using a 3-5 year old computer, and thinking "What, you guys are having lower performance on better boxes?")
04:38:44 <pikhq> Mmm. . . Gentoo. . .
04:39:36 <pikhq> Too easy to poke fun at Vista.
04:40:06 <Figs> reading about quantum computers make my head hurt :P
04:40:17 <Figs> http://www.ams.org/featurecolumn/archive/quantum-one.html
04:41:25 <Figs> I need to do more math :P
04:41:39 <Figs> two months and I've already forgotten so much
04:41:48 <Figs> damn ye, summer!
04:44:29 <Sukoshi`> I never understood the gamer philosophy at all.
04:44:36 <Sukoshi`> But then *shrug* most programmers probably don't.
04:44:57 <Figs> "Gamer Philosophy"?
04:45:30 <Figs> I usually don't
04:45:36 <Figs> but I've been playing a lot lately
04:45:59 <Figs> Cave Story, La-Mulana, A Game with a Kitty, etc
04:46:11 <Figs> Within a Deep Forest, Knytt...
04:46:45 <pikhq> My idea of good games involves an emulator. . .
04:47:20 <Figs> Seiken Densetsu 3 Secret of Mana!
04:47:35 <Figs> CronoTrigger? :P
04:48:10 <Figs> *starts humming Frog's Theme*
04:49:30 <Figs> http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070806/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_germany_pencil
04:49:45 <Figs> seriously, what the bloody fuck?!
04:50:05 <Figs> 51 years with... geez
04:50:26 <Figs> how did I get 51? :S
04:53:40 <Figs> I have a really crazy idea
04:53:52 <Figs> for a game engine
04:54:09 <Sukoshi`> But mostly when my creative faculties don't work.
04:54:19 <Figs> It'd need my parser library... and I'd have to write two more libraries at least
04:54:56 <Figs> a file handler lib using the parser library, and a "database" lib using the other two
04:55:30 <Figs> *points out the word _engine_*
04:55:54 <pikhq> Yacc, STL, and a SQL.
04:56:02 <Sukoshi`> ... How is that any different from the hundreds of other C++ game engines out there? :P
04:56:39 <Figs> pikhq, more like Yacc, XML/DTD++, SQL inline
04:57:06 <Figs> the trick isn't so much that it'd be a game engine, in fact, it wouldn't be
04:57:09 <pikhq> I fail to see how XML handles *files*.
04:57:27 <Figs> that's where the ++ comes in
04:57:33 <Sukoshi`> So, it's a game engine that's not a game engine?
04:57:36 <Figs> using a meta-language to describe the contents of files
04:58:15 <Sukoshi`> Yet another Descriptive Idea from Figs.
04:58:24 <Sukoshi`> Hm. Is there any portal on the web where people propose OSS projects?
04:59:04 <Figs> Sukoshi` -- build one on google
04:59:11 <Figs> you have everything you need to do it
04:59:31 <Figs> Google.Code, Google.Groups, Google.Mail, Goole.Page(? can't remember the real name... is that it?)
04:59:38 <Sukoshi`> I've never done web programming, but I should.
04:59:55 <Sukoshi`> In fact, it would be a very convenient starting project.
05:00:03 <Sukoshi`> Any takers? I'll probably be writing it in Python.
05:00:24 <Figs> I'd be interested if I didn't have a couple dozen projects already
05:00:28 <Figs> and if I knew python :P
05:00:44 <Sukoshi`> I have yet to learn Python meself, but I hear that the core is very minimal.
05:00:52 <Figs> seriously though, I like this idea because it's a way to kill two birds with one stone
05:00:56 <Sukoshi`> Minimal enough that one can learn the language as one codes.
05:01:04 <Figs> it gives me a good reason to finish my insane parser library
05:01:28 <pikhq> But not because of the Python bit. . .
05:01:43 * pikhq went from "know nothing" to "able to do some hacking in it" in about 5 minutes
05:01:51 <Figs> you could be the first to figure out how to write a site in BrainFuck
05:01:53 <pikhq> Well, that's one thing.
05:02:02 <Figs> or has it been done?
05:02:06 <Sukoshi`> Dunno what's wrong with web programming.
05:02:07 <pikhq> It's obvious what to do.
05:02:25 <pikhq> Just make a Brainfuck HTTPD which runs from inetd.
05:02:44 <Figs> Do it, Do it, Do it, Do it, Do it...!
05:04:02 <Figs> wow, I wonder what it'd look like to look at the server-side source for a BF webpage...
05:06:51 <lament> Sukoshi`: what kind of web programming though, simple cgi or using some advanced framework?
05:07:09 <lament> because the former is a gigantic pain in the butt, and the latter involves learning way more than just the "core"
05:08:11 <Sukoshi`> I wanna stick to simple CGI, unless you want to use a framework.
05:08:19 <Sukoshi`> Because frameworks, IMO, are more annoying.
05:08:55 <lament> well, be prepared then, cgi is pretty awful
05:09:18 <Sukoshi`> But learning a framework is learning something that's simple-paradigm.
05:10:02 <Sukoshi`> I mean, this project isn't *that* complicated. We'll just be managing project proposals, proposal creators, proposal accepters, and maybe stuff like dates and categories.
05:10:17 <Sukoshi`> Most of it will bepend on a DB and basic HTML generation.
05:10:19 <lament> python is a very pleasant language though
05:31:57 <cherez> It's like the spa retreat of programming.
05:32:03 <Figs> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Rule+36
05:33:10 <Figs> wtf is "flrrd"?
05:36:34 <Figs> go replace every instance of the word "Fuck" in a forum post with "QUACK"
05:36:39 <Figs> it makes for unusual reading
05:36:47 <Figs> Go QUACK yourself.
05:37:00 <Figs> (BrainQUACK anyone? :S)
05:38:07 <lament> replacing words with other words commonly reads to unusual readings.
05:38:41 <Figs> I read an entire story where the F word had been censored to say "Gently caress"
05:38:52 <Figs> it took me a while to realize it wasn't just the author being quirky
05:39:04 <Figs> (forum censoring software... joy :P)
05:39:08 <lament> how do you say motherfucker then?
05:39:16 <lament> mothergently caresser?
05:39:25 <Figs> mothergently caress?
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05:50:19 <RodgerTheGreat> "Holy loving poo-poo. Gently caress me." -> "Holy fucking shit- fuck me."
05:50:49 <Figs> I think it was the SomethingAwful forums, but I don't know
05:50:57 <Figs> Might have been elsewhere
05:50:57 <RodgerTheGreat> lament: different forms of "fuck" generally map to different words
05:51:15 <RodgerTheGreat> I've spent a fair amount of time slowly learning to decode their replacements
05:51:31 <Figs> it was the Streetsweeper's Tale
05:51:52 <Figs> don't ask me how many times I've fucked that one up and said SweetStreeper's Tale
05:52:09 <Figs> I can't begin to guess.
05:52:49 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm not a forum member, but I like reading threads there when I'm bored
05:52:50 <Figs> I don't usually go there
05:52:53 <Figs> so I don't remember
05:52:53 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: but "fuck" itself could be a noun or a verb
05:53:15 <Figs> Gently Caress, batman!
05:53:29 <Figs> did they have a replacement for shit?
05:53:32 <RodgerTheGreat> the places the replacement doesn't fit in well are how you can start to crack the code
05:53:34 <Figs> I can't remember
05:54:02 <Figs> sockpuppet a guide?
05:54:24 <Figs> C-rap = crap, F-uck = fuck, S-hit = shit ... etc
05:56:21 <Sukoshi`> I hope Python is nice. I've Rubied, and it just feels like ... wannabe Smalltalk.
05:56:36 <lament> then you might not enjoy python as much :)
05:56:53 <lament> it's a lot less of a wannabe smalltalk, but it's not very different from ruby
05:56:57 <lament> it doesn't have blocks, though.
05:57:08 <RodgerTheGreat> I could whip up a PHP-based BF interpreter for BF CGI. I think that'd be easier than python.
05:57:21 <lament> instead all functions are first-class and you can pass them freely; there's no extra sugar
05:57:22 <Sukoshi`> Well, Ruby uses a lot of Smalltalk-ish features, especially blocks, that irk me in their obvious lack of power.
05:57:47 <lament> also, python has list comprehensions <3
05:58:21 <Sukoshi`> I previewed Perl over vacation, and it seemed quite nice, albeit the OOP seemed downright cryptic, and its overreliance on $, %, and @ is bleh.
05:58:46 <Sukoshi`> I totally grok the concept of using references in data structures too, because it's a C thing.
05:59:47 <Sukoshi`> The one major irk I had with my Python previewing was the forced indentation ... I've encountered enough Haskell situations where I fume because the indentation has caused me trouble where I've come to prefer brace syntax.
06:01:18 <Sukoshi`> Hopefully Emacs's python-mode is more mature than haskell-mode :P
06:02:27 <Sukoshi`> One last question as I continue my SAT studying: Is there a reason people constantly use SQL instead of writing, say, a database in Python, or C/++/Java if Python is too slow?
06:03:08 <Figs> I was just talking about writing a database in C++
06:03:49 <Figs> Don't expect mine to scale *too much*... it's not a goat, fish, or scientist.
06:06:48 <lament> Sukoshi`: explicit references are probably the biggest turn-off from perl for me
06:07:01 <bsmntbombdood> Sukoshi`: emacs handles python's indentation just fine, because it's a lot simpler than haskell's
06:07:02 <lament> Sukoshi`: python's indentation is somehow saner than haskell's
06:07:23 <lament> Sukoshi`: there's no that "beginning of next lexeme" junk, you just continue on the next line and tabulate
06:08:03 <lament> i suppose you could do that in haskell, too, but somehow everybody doesn't.
06:08:55 <Figs> hmm... I wonder
06:09:09 <Sukoshi`> Well, explicit references are pretty useful for efficiency, methinks.
06:09:16 <lament> Sukoshi`: i don't see how
06:09:21 <Sukoshi`> Although I would prefer an explicit value language rather.
06:09:22 <Figs> how would a language without an "if" keyword be?
06:09:26 <Figs> like, you use ? instead
06:09:29 <lament> Sukoshi`: either you access the reference, in which case you have to access it anyway.
06:09:37 <lament> Sukoshi`: or you don't access it, in which case you don't access it.
06:09:39 <Figs> foo? {bar} else {blah}
06:09:43 <lament> doesn't matter if it's explicit or not
06:10:03 <Figs> *put in spaces where appropriate
06:10:12 <Sukoshi`> Well, if you have loops where you access something hundreds or thousands of times, you may want to have the value is a variable waiting, rather than in a reference.
06:11:05 <Sukoshi`> That's why I'd prefer explicit value, that way in the cases where efficiency is needed, the value is explicitly stored, elsewise the reference is stored and looked up.
06:13:31 <Figs> that'd be interesting, but somehow, I think I've gotten myself too engrained with the C++ way of think that I'd fuck it up :P
06:13:50 <Figs> or at least _gently caress_ it up :P
06:14:10 * Figs starts doing pinky push-ups...
06:14:21 <lament> Sukoshi`: ah, but that's only possible for a limited set of primitive types for which you can have something OTHER than a reference.
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06:14:32 <lament> Sukoshi`: and python already does that for them.
06:15:28 <lament> Sukoshi`: and a difference of one C-level pointer resolution is really not something you should worry about in a very high-level garbage-collected language.
06:18:57 <lament> and the gain in elegance is enormous
06:19:10 <lament> instead of all those sigils, you just have one type of object
06:19:26 <lament> (like smalltalk and ruby)
06:22:52 <Figs> something about macros just clicked in my head
06:23:27 <Figs> I just realized how neat it'd be if I could write something to make
06:24:02 <Figs> stringify { foo " is a " blahtype }
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06:24:17 <Figs> instead of having to do
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06:24:32 <Figs> foo << " is a " << blahtype
06:26:38 <Figs> Sigil (Computer Programming) from wikipedia claims
06:26:40 <Figs> "In Fortran, all variables starting with the letters I, J, K, L, M and N are integers although Fortran refers to this as "implicit typing". (This is the source of the long tradition of using "i", "j", "k" etc as the loop indexes of "for loops" in many programming languagesfew of which have implicit typing)."
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06:29:33 <Figs> http://image.bayimg.com/cafmnaabf.jpg
06:40:40 <Figs> wow, I just realized how bad I am at shading
07:10:57 <Sukoshi`> Well, I always thought the programming `i' originates from math's summation notation?
07:12:40 <pikhq> That would be *why* Fortran had i through n as integers.
07:38:23 <Figs> totally wasted the evening again!
07:39:47 <Figs> very very very off topic, but wtf: http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/08/06/worst-excuse-ever/
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10:36:04 <oklofok> though interpreters most are
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10:38:40 <oklofok> but one yourself can you make, easy is it like a pie
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10:45:22 <Feuermonster> I thought, I could translate it to C++ and compile it (extern) with a very small C++ Compiler.
10:45:37 <Feuermonster> But til now, i did not find a small c++ compiler.
10:46:48 <oklofok> the small ones are the best
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15:16:43 <ehird`> i have had a `cat /dev/urandom` scan recently
15:24:56 <SimonRC> The hard part to doing a cat scan is getting the cat to lie still on the scanner and not scratch the glass
15:27:16 <SimonRC> that would damage the scanner
15:27:28 <GregorR> http://www.choosemyhat.com/ ... DO IT! IT'S COOOOL!
15:29:49 <ehird`> <SimonRC> The hard part to doing a cat scan is getting the cat to lie still on the scanner and not scratch the glass <-- i have an overwhelming urge to put this on bash
15:30:14 <ehird`> well, and the two following messages
15:31:21 <RodgerTheGreat> the mods at bash suck. They've turned down all of the greatest quotes my friends and I have submitted
15:31:38 <ehird`> repeat that conversation with "gay nigga" in
15:32:16 <ehird`> <SimonRC> The hard part to doing a cat scan is getting the cat to lie still on the scanner and not scratch the glass
15:32:17 <ehird`> <RodgerTheGreat> SimonRC: this is why staple-guns were invented
15:32:17 <ehird`> <SimonRC> that would damage the scanner
15:32:38 <SimonRC> GregorR: How did Do not Put the Baby start?
15:33:55 * SimonRC imagines GregorR tuning up a Ukelele
15:35:06 <ehird`> Do not put the baby in the fantastic song
15:35:40 <RodgerTheGreat> I did this one: http://www.donotputthebaby.com/index.php?s=Pixel
15:36:21 <ehird`> i wrote lyrics, give me much moneys http://nonlogic.org/dump/text/1186497006.html
15:37:02 <ehird`> actually i should just use the list of ones already on the site
15:42:15 <ehird`> http://nonlogic.org/dump/text/1186497363.html okay!
15:42:35 <ehird`> that should last about 6-7 minutes..
15:43:11 <RodgerTheGreat> now, see if you can't rephrase it into something resembling regular meter or rhyme.
15:43:30 <ehird`> i could end every sentence with "voodoo"
15:43:48 <ehird`> Do not put the baby in the algebraic expression voodoo
15:43:54 <ehird`> Do not put the baby in the invisible box voodoo
15:44:02 <ehird`> Do not put the baby in the toilet voodoo
15:44:30 <RodgerTheGreat> if I were writing this, I'd make some kind of introductory segment that roughly explains what the song is about
15:46:46 <ehird`> http://nonlogic.org/dump/text/1186497634.html done! :p
15:47:51 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR: I think ehird` could benefit from some lyrical advice
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16:07:34 <SimonRC> GregorR: it seems that some acquatences of mine are helping your with your hat choice.
16:21:29 <GregorR> Wow, that's a lot of votes all of a sudden.
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16:30:12 <ihope> We get to choose GregorR's hat?
16:32:31 <ihope> I bet he'd be even more willing to wear custom hats if they were given rather than merely suggested to him.
16:33:51 <GregorR> [no leather, no coarse straw]
16:34:42 <ihope> main = do vote velvetHat; changeIPAdress; main
16:36:22 <ihope> I'm sure it's possible to change those things, seeing as how they occasionally change by themselves and I think I used to think I knew how to do it.
16:36:58 <SimonRC> disconnect and reconnect might work
16:37:11 <ihope> Yes, disconnect and reconnect might work.
16:37:17 <ihope> How would IPv6 do it?
16:37:41 <ihope> And why do I seem to still be using IPv4?
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16:39:13 <SimonRC> with IPv6 your ISP would give you 18446744073709551616 IP addresses
16:39:45 <SimonRC> that is a nice number to chant
16:39:59 <ihope> What's its log base 2?
16:41:01 <SimonRC> "1 8 4 4 // 6 7 4 4 // 0 7 // 3 7 // 0 9 // 5 5 // 1 6 // 1 6"
16:41:16 <SimonRC> I memorised it a while ago
16:42:06 <ihope> 3.14 159 265 35 8797, is it?
16:42:42 <SimonRC> sounds like a frikkin' insurance company phone number
16:43:17 <ihope> Whoa, it's, like, angles measured in degrees.
16:43:46 * SimonRC recalls the advert with the owl on it and the number ending "28 28 20" :-P
16:44:15 <ihope> I want to mentally calculate pi.
16:44:28 <ihope> Obviously, that probably requires a space-efficient algorithm.
16:45:17 <ihope> Darn our "practical" memory systems. Our distant ancestors didn't need to calculate pi mentally, so we can't.
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16:48:32 <ihope> Oh, isn't this a wonderful formula for pi? http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/d/6/c/d6cb2a82b42bc60c89ed0987778bcd47.png
16:48:52 <ihope> I'll just memorize that and use it.
16:52:01 -!- jix_ has joined.
16:52:09 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: from memory?
16:52:24 <ihope> You're a nerd for having memorized it farther than 3.141592653589793238462643383279.
16:53:25 <SimonRC> but you don't know useful tthings like 2^0--2^16, 2^32, and 2^64
16:53:39 <SimonRC> or the mean number of days in a year (calculated that in my head)
16:53:59 <SimonRC> mean number of *weeks* in a year
16:54:51 <SimonRC> this means that the cycle of weekdays repeats every 400 years
16:55:08 <SimonRC> which means that some are more likely in various positions of the year than others are
16:55:08 <ihope> 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192.
16:55:31 <ihope> 16384, 32768, 65536!
16:55:50 <ihope> That one I don't know.
16:55:59 <SimonRC> 4294967296 = 2 * 2147483648
16:56:18 <SimonRC> and of course 2^64 = 18446744073709551616
16:56:21 <ihope> And about 16 billion billion. :-)
16:56:30 <ihope> Though apparently more like 18 billion billion.
16:56:44 <SimonRC> there needs to be a name for that...
16:56:58 <SimonRC> like kilo-inflation or something
16:57:34 <SimonRC> the way that powers of 2^10 diverge from the corresponding powers of 10^3
16:57:50 * SimonRC has to go shopping now :-(
16:58:23 <ihope> Well, the ratio grows exponentially.
16:58:36 <ihope> Pff. I have a handy little tool that helps me remember the alphabet.
16:58:46 <ihope> Here it is: QWERTYUIOPASDFGHJKLZXCVBNM
16:59:21 <RodgerTheGreat> ihope: it seems like a good idea to keep something with that list on your desk, for quick reference
16:59:50 <ihope> I usually use a laptop. It tends to move around.
17:00:54 <pikhq> --[+++++>->++<<]>----->[--<.+>] This is a little tool *I* use to remember the alphabet. :p
17:01:03 <ihope> I also know... um... the two last digits of Graham's number.
17:01:28 <ihope> In ternary, 00! >:-)
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17:02:52 <pikhq> Everyone, put on the NSFW faces!
17:06:06 <asiekierka> Not Safe For Not Safe For Asiekierka WorShipeRS
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17:16:45 <ihope> Okay, to find the last two digits of Graham's number, you need to take it mod 100...
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17:22:05 <ehird`> ihope: too suspenseful! just tell us the digits! :P
17:28:21 <ihope> And mod 7, and mod 1.
17:29:34 <ihope> Congruent to 42, mod 14, then.
17:30:40 <ehird`> 27*1.56 is roughly 42!
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17:36:14 <ehird`> now give me significance of 14/9 :p
17:36:32 <ihope> It's a perfect square.
17:36:56 <ehird`> Aha! And backwards that is 234!
17:37:00 <ehird`> And ... 1 sucks, or something!
17:37:13 <ihope> Er, 14/9 = 1, 4, 9!
17:37:21 <ehird`> So 27*14/9 = 42 = the answer to life, the universe and everything
17:37:23 <ihope> Which is the square of 1, 2, 3!
17:37:37 <ehird`> g_64 contains the story of the universe!
17:37:46 <ehird`> or rather, everything up to the last two digits is the question
17:37:53 <ehird`> and it's encoded in a format related to 14/9!
17:38:59 <ihope> 40 = 2 * 5 * 4, so phi(40) = 1 * 4 * 4 = 16.
17:40:47 <ihope> G mod 100 = 3^G mod 100 = 3^(G mod 40) mod 100 = 3^(3^G mod 40) mod 100 = 3^(3^(G mod 16) mod 40) mod 100 = 3^(3^(3^G mod 16) mod 40) mod 100 = 3^(3^(3^(G mod 8) mod 16) mod 40) mod 100 = 3^(3^(3^(3^G mod 8) mod 16) mod 40) mod 100 = 3^(3^(3^(3^(G mod 4) mod 8) mod 16) mod 40) mod 100 = 3^(3^(3^(3^(3^G mod 4) mod 8) mod 16) mod 40) mod 100 = 3^(3^(3^(3^(3^(G mod 2) mod 4) mod 8) mod 16) mod...
17:40:49 <ihope> ...40) mod 100 = 3^(3^(3^(3^(3^1 mod 4) mod 8) mod 16) mod 40) mod 100
17:41:04 <ihope> ...and the last equation, 3^(3^(3^(3^(3^1 mod 4) mod 8) mod 16) mod 40) mod 100, is the important one.
17:41:51 <ihope> (G = 3^G modulo any small enough number, where "small enough" means "much larger than 3^3^3^3^3^3^3^3^3^3".)
17:43:24 <ihope> 3^1 mod 4 is 3; 3^3 mod 8 is 3; 3^3 mod 16 is 11; 3^11 mod 40 is 27; 3^27 mod 100 is 87.
17:43:33 <ihope> So I was wrong: the last two digits are 87.
18:00:08 <ihope> I've heard that "6 * 9 = 42" was chosen arbitrarily.
18:00:46 <ehird`> but all real conspiracy theorists know that 6 * 9 = 42_13
18:03:15 <ihope> 6 * 9 = 42 modulo 6.
18:03:30 <ihope> That is, 6 * 7 = 6 * 9 modulo 6.
18:04:05 <ihope> Modulo 6, 6 = 0, therefore 6 * 7 = 0 * 7 and 6 * 9 = 0 * 9.
18:04:16 <ihope> 42 is really 0! Oh noes!
18:04:20 <ehird`> ok, everything for some random amount of time from now on is an improvised play
18:04:38 <ehird`> yes, i see this is going very well
18:04:47 <ihope> Um... how are you, then?
18:04:53 <ehird`> I am fine. How are your chickens?
18:05:04 <ihope> Dead, unfortunately.
18:05:23 <ehird`> You're meant to say "Fine", and then I tell you "Aha! That is where you are wrong - FOR THEY ARE DEAD!"
18:05:30 <ehird`> And then you say "What? But how?" and I say "I killed them!"
18:05:32 <ihope> Um, they're fine, then.
18:05:40 <ehird`> Aha! That is where you are wrong - FOR THEY ARE DEAD!
18:05:51 <ehird`> They died of food poisoning, unfortunately.
18:05:58 <ihope> Oh, that's a shame!
18:06:04 <ihope> What did they eat?
18:06:21 <ehird`> Um. You know. Just Mars.
18:06:30 <ehird`> The chocolate bar, that is, not the planet.
18:06:40 <ihope> Oh, I thought you were talking about the Roman god.
18:06:44 <ehird`> However, they tried to eat the planet first. The chocolate bar was just a compromise.
18:07:07 <ihope> And what did the bar contain that gave them food poisoning?
18:07:21 <ihope> I shall file a wedding gown!
18:07:33 <ehird`> ... Um... nothing... I really must go now! Just... uh... going to the Mars factory... yeah... why? er, no reason! bye!!!
18:07:43 <ihope> Say, did you kill them?
18:07:59 <ehird`> ... And now, you see, boss, I have put chicken-killing poison into all of the bars.
18:08:04 <ehird`> Soon, the world will be yours!
18:08:13 <ihope> (Am I the boss now?)
18:08:17 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: You! Say "Excellent!"
18:08:23 <ehird`> Alternatively, you are the boss, ihope.
18:08:30 <ehird`> It's a very dynamic company; the bosses just come and go.
18:08:37 <ehird`> Yes, indeed it is excellent... mwahahahaha...
18:08:45 <ehird`> *stage whisper: BUT I HAVE MY OWN PLANS...*
18:08:55 <ehird`> *cut scene to teenager inventing something*
18:08:59 <ehird`> OH! So that's how time travel works!
18:09:14 <ehird`> Any time travel cancels itself out so that what you did when you travelled was always true!
18:09:30 <ehird`> I'll just go and time travel now- *universe explodes in paradox*
18:09:41 <ehird`> My my, I just felt as if a universe died.
18:09:56 <ehird`> *stabs you with a knife*
18:10:03 <ihope> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
18:10:04 <ehird`> Mwahahahahahahahaha! Now the Earth will be MINE!
18:10:22 <ehird`> You, perilous fool, will die. But first... you must tell me the recipe!
18:10:44 <ehird`> ihope: But first.. you must tell me the recipe!
18:10:51 <ihope> Um, lemme think...
18:11:19 <ihope> Just mix this Instant Mix with a gallon of water and a large cup of sugar!
18:11:31 <ehird`> What does the Instant Mix contain?
18:11:39 <ehird`> TELL ME! *steadies knife at throat*
18:11:43 <ihope> It says on the label, doesn't it?
18:12:13 <ihope> Well then, that's what it contains!
18:12:20 <ehird`> Is that what the brown sticky stuff is, then?
18:12:37 <ehird`> Well, then obviously my poison was not needed!
18:12:42 <ehird`> The chickens must have died from eating manure...
18:12:52 <ehird`> THEN WHAT DID I PUT IN THE RECIPE?!!!!!
18:13:02 <ehird`> *checks bottle* Oh god. "HUMANKILL2000"
18:13:16 <ehird`> *change scene to farm*
18:13:23 <ehird`> So your chickens died?
18:13:40 <ehird`> Think it might have something to do with THIS? *holds up packet of manure*
18:13:57 <ihope> Why, how did you know?
18:14:26 <ehird`> You gave me this. *holds up HUMANKILL*
18:14:32 <ehird`> I ASKED FOR CHICKEN POISON?!
18:14:35 <ehird`> HOW DARE YOU BETRAY ME?!
18:14:47 <ihope> Sorry! I... must have made a mistake!
18:15:13 <ihope> ...Oh, it turns out CHICKENKILL is actually ridiculously expensive!
18:15:18 <ehird`> AVADA KEDAVRA! *universe disappears in a poof of genre-and-franchise-crossing*
18:15:26 <ihope> So by giving you HUMANKILL instead, I sav--
18:15:33 <ehird`> Say, this void is very nice. Don't you agree, little Grue?
18:15:45 <ihope> Are you a Grue, too?
18:15:47 <ehird`> Um... you know this void... does it happen to be dark?
18:15:58 <ihope> Isn't void devoid of most things?
18:15:59 <ehird`> Um, can Grues still eat in voids?
18:16:09 <ihope> I don't see why not, as long as they're dark voids.
18:16:18 <ehird`> Um... you can't run away in voids, can you?
18:16:19 <ihope> And if voids are devoid of most things, then they're devoid of light, so they're dark.
18:16:33 <ehird`> Um... you can't run away in voids, can you?
18:16:37 <ihope> Well, even if you could, if there's no bright place to run to...
18:16:43 <ihope> ...there's no point in running.
18:17:08 <ihope> Hmm, apparently not...
18:17:26 <ehird`> Oh look, pink fluffy elephant!
18:18:02 * ihope runs away in a ridiculous manner
18:18:07 <ehird`> But I am a nice mouse.
18:18:15 * ihope comes back in a ridiculous manner
18:18:32 <ihope> *teeth chatter in a ridiculous manner*
18:18:32 <ehird`> Just kidding! I WANT TO EAT YOU!
18:18:40 * ihope runs away in a ridiculous manner
18:18:45 * ehird` appears in front of you
18:19:01 * ihope stomps the mouse in a ridiculous manner
18:19:08 * ehird` appears in front of you
18:19:16 <ehird`> Hello! I am your future self
18:19:28 <ehird`> JESUS CHRIST IT'S A LION GET IN THE TIME MACHINE - HERE IS YOUR SCRIPT
18:19:35 <ehird`> *turns on time machine*
18:19:39 <ehird`> Hello! I am your future self
18:20:15 <ihope> Would you like me to give you all my money, sir?
18:20:24 <ehird`> I want you to give me all of your money!
18:20:59 <ihope> Shall I dance too, sir?
18:21:13 <ehird`> You should be in a quantum superposition of dancing and not dancing!
18:21:22 <ehird`> I should not be able to tell which you are in unless I look at you!
18:21:35 * ihope does a Hadamard transform, observes, and dances iff the result was 1
18:22:19 <ehird`> Hm. I have found the universes' admin panel
18:22:26 <ehird`> Look... "stars" subpanel!
18:22:34 <ehird`> Hmmm... "planets" *click*
18:22:44 <ehird`> Look! There's Earth! It's SOL3 here, though.
18:22:51 <ehird`> Hmm... I can mess about with its core.
18:23:08 <ihope> Turn it into antimatter!
18:23:13 <ehird`> I can "SJAKÓÁ", "ÁÁK", or "pÁ"
18:23:26 <ihope> Um... the last option seems the simplest.
18:23:36 <ehird`> *computer voice: EXPLODERATING CORE*
18:23:45 <ihope> We're on Earth, aren't we?
18:23:52 <ehird`> *BIG BALL OF FIRE IS NEW EARTH*
18:23:59 <ehird`> *EVERYTHING IMPLODES INTO ONE TINY DOT*
18:24:05 <ehird`> Well, I wonder what's going to ha-
18:24:28 <ehird`> Hm. I have found the universes' admin panel
18:25:09 <ehird`> http://nonlogic.org/dump/text/1186507137.html Saved forever.
18:25:25 <ihope> And look, there's a Unicode character called "to slant; intricate; describe a writer's pen, lofty rocks; protruded rocks; resolute"!
18:26:29 <ihope> Um, lemme see here...
18:28:00 <ihope> The best I can manage: 㕊
18:28:14 <ehird`> just give me the html entity number :p
18:28:46 <ihope> 㕊 or 㕊
18:29:16 <ihope> And apparently it's 0xE3 0x95 0x8A in UTF-8.
18:29:39 <ihope> ~exec sys.stdout(u"\u354A")
18:29:40 <bsmnt_bot> UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\u354a' in position 0: ordinal not in range(128)
18:29:41 <ehird`> um i need a font with it in
18:30:18 <ihope> Well, it's supported in Code2000 and DFSongStd.
18:31:03 <ehird`> what does it look like in them?
18:31:30 <ihope> Here, have a web page devoted to that character: http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/354a/index.htm
18:31:48 <ihope> And an SVG sample: http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/354a/sample.svg
18:32:47 <ehird`> oh, it's japanese or something
18:32:52 <ehird`> that's less interesting
18:33:10 <ihope> It's certainly Han.
18:33:31 <ihope> Indeed, less interesting.
18:33:45 <ihope> Maybe I can find some Klingon.
18:34:05 <ehird`> there should be a "making a simple conlang for beginners" tutorial
18:34:11 <ehird`> most of them drag on and are really boring =p
18:34:22 <ihope> How about "just make one"?
18:34:29 <ehird`> lament: that's a language
18:34:29 <lament> toki pona li pona li suli ala.
18:34:38 <ehird`> not a tutorial for designing conlangs
18:34:50 <lament> bsmntbombdood: but chose haskell instead?
18:35:06 <ehird`> ihope: i know english and around 3 phrases of lojban; and I know next to nothing about linguistics
18:35:09 * lament considers adding monads to toki pona
18:35:10 <ehird`> "not that hard" is not that true
18:35:20 * pikhq knows English, some Japanese, and some Esperanto
18:35:28 <ihope> Hey, it can be superficially different but really English at its core :-P
18:35:45 <ehird`> ihope: that isn't a real conlang though
18:35:51 <lament> ehird`: just like people who don't know anything but C shouldn't go around designing programming languages, people who don't know any linguistics and only speak one language shoudln't design conlangs.
18:36:03 <ehird`> lament: hey, just a small toy one
18:36:09 * pikhq *started* a conlang a few years back. . .
18:36:10 <lament> ehird`: learn basic linguistics, it's interesting and easy.
18:36:11 <ehird`> for getting the feel of conlang design
18:36:23 <ihope> Come up with a syntax for English!
18:36:24 <lament> ehird`: as well as being necessary for designing conlangs
18:36:26 <pikhq> The language itself didn't come very far, but the writing system was quite elegant.
18:36:38 <ehird`> well, sure, i know the very basics of linguistics
18:36:38 <lament> ehird`: read up on language typology
18:36:51 <pikhq> Pretty much, I discovered my grammar was superficially similar to Esperanto, and dropped it at that point.
18:37:00 <ihope> Here, have a rule: <sentence> -> <x : subject> <predicate x>
18:37:24 <lament> ehird`: for starters, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphological_typology
18:38:07 <lament> consider that a tutorial :)
18:38:08 <pikhq> Conlangs are fun. :)
18:40:37 <ihope> Languages of expression and languages of programming are very different.
18:41:06 <oklofok> (ihope) 3.14 159 265 35 8797, is it? <<< nope.
18:41:50 <oklofok> (bsmntbombdood) 3.141592653589793238462643383279501 <<< wrong again
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18:51:22 <oklofok> well, if that's right, then i'd have to be wrong.
18:51:32 <oklofok> so... you don't really stand a change
18:51:49 <ihope> After all, we all know that oklofok > bsmntbombdood.
18:52:18 <oklofok> 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944
18:52:35 <ihope> Also, it seems bsmntbombdood and bsmnt_bot are now bsb and bs_ rather than bb and b_, since Blejdfist sort of messed things up a little.
18:53:12 <oklofok> i actually learned till 120th digit, but i've forgotten them since i forgot to revise the next day
18:53:54 * olsner also once learned to 120 but is now back to just 60
18:53:54 <oklofok> i guess i didn't forget, i was just lazy
18:54:50 <oklofok> ah indeed, most people prolly do sequences of 6 digits
18:54:59 <oklofok> like 3.141592 653589 79...
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18:57:09 <olsner> I have a mixture of chunksizes... starting with two (I didn't set out to learn a lot of pi, just as much as could fit in a 64-bit float ;-), then a few groups of 3 or 4, then like pairs of 4's to 60, and 60-120 I memorized in 3's
18:57:41 <ihope> Too bad numbers like 4 have weird expansions. :-P
18:57:47 <ihope> And besides, everyone knows base e is better!
18:58:17 <olsner> 3 . 14 15 92 65 35 89 79 32 38 46 264 338 32 79 50 2884 1971 6939 (9375 1058) (2097 4944)
18:59:44 <ehird`> i'd start with 3 . 141592
18:59:49 <ehird`> seems more natural to me
19:00:21 <ehird`> 3 . 141592 6535 8979 3238 4626 33832 7950 2884 1971 6939 9375 1058 2097 4944
19:00:28 <ihope> Actually, I think it's 3.14 1 59 265 for me.
19:00:50 <olsner> ehird`: well, it's not natural, it's transcendental
19:00:53 <ehird`> maybe 3 . 14159 26535 8979 3238 4626 33832 7950 2884 1971 6939 9375 1058 2097 4944
19:01:00 <ehird`> olsner: har har har har har har har yawn
19:01:09 <ehird`> if i didn't like big blocks for some reason it'd be:
19:01:54 <ehird`> 3.14 159 265 3589 79 3238 4626 338 3279 502 884 197 169 399 375 105 820 974 944
19:11:06 <ihope> Maybe we should try to improvise a language.
19:11:43 <ihope> See what we can say without resorting to English at all.
19:12:46 <ihope> Is that in a language other than English?
19:13:14 <ihope> Podemos usar las otras lenguas, por supuesto. :-P
19:13:28 <ihope> But is it in any language at all?
19:13:35 <ihope> "Por supuesto" is "of course", I think.
19:13:47 <oklofok> i have really no vocabulary in spanish
19:14:01 <oklofok> i just know some grammar and pronunciation
19:14:08 <ihope> #implang for anybody who feels like participating.
19:14:15 <olsner> Podemos usar = let's use?
19:14:36 <oklofok> i always feel like everything
19:14:58 <ihope> You feel like everything?
19:15:04 <olsner> and what's 'otras' mean?
19:15:58 <lament> i learned 50 digits of pi using conway's method
19:17:34 <olsner> lament: you're 10 digits away from mine and oklofok's baseline, and 70 digits away from our max
19:18:48 <ihope> "otras" is "other", I think.
19:19:55 <olsner> seems I do know a little bit of spanish after all
19:22:53 <lament> olsner: i don't feel like learning any more, and 50 is a nice round number :)
19:23:01 <oklofok> (ihope) You feel like everything? <<< yes, i feel absolutely everything possible at all times
19:23:25 <olsner> lament: just pointing out that you're behind ;-)
19:23:35 <lament> olsner: actually i know all digits of pi
19:23:40 <lament> olsner: 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9
19:23:42 <ehird`> i want to be able to program my mental computer...
19:23:46 <ehird`> the gui we're given sucks!
19:24:04 <olsner> lament: har har har har hrrg
19:24:34 <ehird`> does it occur to anyone else that learning mathematics might be completely useless? our brains might have mathematics at the core, as a basis for our thoughts, so our maths is like doing computer arithmetic with string cat'ing :)
19:25:58 <lament> ehird`: if there was an easier / more "natural" way, it would have probably been discovered already.
19:27:03 <ehird`> lament: not really - it's like running windows on top of dos with no way to get into dos
19:27:28 <lament> ehird`: the reason people do math is first of all because it's practical
19:27:39 <lament> ehird`: if there was an easier way to achieve the same results, people would do that instead
19:28:04 <ehird`> alternatively, we haven't discovered the lower level of the brain yet so can't
19:28:33 <lament> right. Feel free to discover it.
19:28:50 <lament> But I feel that experienced mathematicians already work at that level.
19:29:01 <lament> at least the good ones.
19:29:48 <ehird`> oh shit, i just programmed in a viru-
19:35:51 <ihope> oklofok: I think so far, our improvised language is sort of failing. :-P
19:38:09 <oklofok> i'm just talking in german for fun :)
19:39:00 <olsner> oklofok: but on IRC, all that matters is what you're writing... and you seem to be writing english ;-)
19:39:34 <ihope> Is there anyone here who knows both a Romance language and a Germanic language other than English?
19:39:53 <oklofok> damn i wish i'd've learned spanish...
19:40:23 <oklofok> sind hier deutschsprechende leute?
19:40:30 <ihope> This is difficult indeed.
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19:41:24 <olsner> ja ;-) ich bin nicht deutsch, aber ich kann es siemlich sprechen
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19:42:32 <oklofok> that was... quite ziemlich gespracht..
19:42:34 <ihope> GregorR: who do you think you are?
19:43:22 <ihope> If you're Greg Orr, then who's Greg Orr supposed to be?
19:43:43 <oklofok> 'ziemlich' is kinda like the intersection of the meanings of 'quite' and 'rather'... if that makes any sense
19:43:49 <oklofok> you can't use it like that anyway
19:44:17 <olsner> and a few french phrases "je suis une pomplemousse avec deux jeune bleu", "je ne sais pas, j'aime tout le coleurs" ;-)
19:45:23 <olsner> oh, I forgot the 'gut'
19:45:49 <ihope> I think we're sort of expecting ourselves to become fluent in a completely made-up language.
19:46:38 <olsner> it just sounded right because the phrase I was aiming for also begins with 'siemlich'
19:48:35 <ihope> I think I'll go try to recruit some people for #implang.
19:49:00 <olsner> oklofok: whut? have I been making up german words?
19:49:53 <oklofok> hmm... i should read the rest of my german vocabulary
19:50:16 <olsner> but ziemlich is a word
19:50:33 <oklofok> that's like an hour... but why not irc for 5 days and use the rest of the summer for it.
19:55:23 <ihope> What we really need is a network where things like #implang are actually likely to get off the ground :-P
19:55:52 <olsner> and #implang would be like a channel where you mustn't speak any known language?
19:56:29 <ihope> Everything but English is allowed.
19:56:37 <ihope> I'm speaking Spanish, and I think oklofok is speaking German.
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20:11:19 <Sukoshi`> Python's list comprehension seems just like a not-as-powerful CL LOOP to me.
20:12:53 <oklofok> python's list comprehensions are ugly imo.... though i kinda like them
20:24:39 <lament> Sukoshi`: they come from haskell, in case you haven't noticed
20:35:26 <ehird`> #implang is doing well
20:35:28 <ehird`> we can say basic stuff
20:35:35 <ehird`> zolamuldon - "no words", words that mean no
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21:28:19 <cherez> CL LOOP is Turing equivalent, if I recall.
21:28:43 <cherez> Common Lisp's LOOP macro.
21:29:29 <cherez> It pretty much does anything any loop construct of any language will do.
21:33:27 <olsner> LOOP probably does everything from mapcar to forth's begin..while..while..repeat..else..then loop
21:34:12 <ihope> How is it defined?
21:36:09 <olsner> dunno ;-) as far as I understand forth, those control structures are just manipulations on some kind of control stack and can be combined virtually without limits
21:36:52 <ihope> You know what it's useful for, but not its properties?
21:39:27 <olsner> oh, you're asking about CL's LOOP, not about forth? I' not a big fan of loop so I've actually never used it ;-)
21:42:17 <pikhq> It's a macro which does all of the above.
21:44:10 <ihope> What does it take, what does it return?
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21:52:42 <bsmntbombdood> ihope: it takes a very complicated syntax, and returns whatever you want it to
21:53:21 <ehird`> #implang is doign very well
21:53:27 <ehird`> we can already have a simple conversation :)
21:55:10 <pikhq> Sorry, I saw it without the at least.
21:55:41 <pikhq> botcount(); returns 1, and 10^10 < 1.
21:56:13 <ihope> Is bsmnt_bot a real person?
21:57:32 <oklofok> there's 1 bot on this channel?
21:57:57 <ihope> 2 or 3, depending on whether you count bsmntbombdood?
21:58:22 <oklofok> yay, my bot was acknowledged
21:58:59 <ihope> Oh, and clog is a bot.
21:59:20 <oklofok> the definition of a bot is that it's nick ends in 'bot'!
22:00:36 <oklofok> err... something about your mom as a comeback.
22:00:59 <ihope> What does cmeme do?
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00:15:26 <pikhq> You know, Mussolini made the trains run on thyme.
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00:40:15 <SimonRC> pikhq: that is like, so last week
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03:03:58 <Sukoshi> Why doesen't Programming Python explain all of Python's syntax?
03:04:28 <Sukoshi> Is it meant for beginners who already know the language?
03:06:04 <Sukoshi> Maybe the Nutshell series is more for me. Java in a Nutshell was a great book (and I still refer to it). It goes first through the syntax for doing all the things most programming languages have, then it goes over OOP, then over common idioms, and lastly over the standard library (and then has a huge reference on the library).
03:10:18 <Sukoshi> I generally want a spec and the common idioms, yes.
03:11:33 <bsmntbombdood> or you could just read http://docs.python.org/tut/tut.html, then http://docs.python.org/lib/lib.html and http://docs.python.org/ref/ref.html
03:14:14 <bsmntbombdood> well, the second link is a nice reference once you're done with your dead trees
03:28:40 <ihope> Oh yeah, tape archive.
03:28:44 <ihope> Come up with a new tar!
03:28:52 <ihope> A... um, non-tape archive. Call it nar.
03:29:31 <ihope> ...Are rar and dar uncompressed multi-file things?
03:29:42 <pikhq> No, they're *compressed* multi-file things.
03:30:19 <ihope> Well, tar isn't ever compressed, is it?
03:30:27 <pikhq> Tar itself is uncompressed.
03:30:36 <Sukoshi> Your mom is never compressed either.
03:30:41 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: That pipes tar through gzip.
03:30:57 <ihope> And how many people have created single-file compression algorithms called "feather" so far?
03:31:10 <pikhq> Sukoshi: That's stupid enough when testosterone-driven guys do it.
03:31:22 <ihope> Such a bad pun it must have been done hundreds of times!
03:31:29 <Sukoshi> pikhq: That's the reason behind me saying it ;)
03:31:39 <Sukoshi> The point is to use the jokes when it's so stupid, it's pathetically funny.
03:31:58 <pikhq> And, of course, the estrogen-driven female bit makes it even more stupid.
03:32:07 <lament> actually i compressed his mom just last night
03:32:34 <Sukoshi> A) Corset B) ??? C) Profit
03:32:35 <pikhq> It overflows once on funny_t (unsigned long), so it's at funny level 0.
03:32:55 <ihope> It's so funny it overflows a bignum! Wait, it doesn't; it's just not funny.
03:33:23 <Sukoshi> That just means they're really funny, bsmntbombdood.
03:33:40 <Sukoshi> You know, with the sign-bit on?
03:33:52 <ihope> The signed versus unsigned stuff is a teeny bit stupid.
03:34:03 <ihope> (And by stupid, I mean silly.)
03:34:20 <ihope> Arithmetic is the same; it's just comparison and overflow checks that are different.
03:34:25 <bsmntbombdood> it would be stupid in a high level, strongly typed language
03:34:39 <lament> ihope: comparison is a big one.
03:34:44 <ihope> Having different types for signed and unsigned would be stupid?
03:34:53 <ihope> lament: you could use different comparison operators.
03:35:05 <ihope> You could add a constant to both and then compare :-P
03:35:36 <ihope> It has more than one of each comparison operator for doubles?
03:35:48 <lament> actually signed vs. unsigned IS a high-level feature
03:35:57 <lament> a truly low-level language, such as forth, doesn't have it
03:36:25 <bsmntbombdood> it has an operator that works on doubles for every math operator for singles
03:36:40 <lament> the point is, you're dealing with 2 completely different types - a subset of the naturals, and a subset of the integers
03:36:42 <bsmntbombdood> it has to be, because doubles take up two stack slots
03:37:01 <lament> the implementation happens to be very similar, but because C is high-level, it abstracts that and presents them as two different types.
03:37:50 <lament> bsmntbombdood: won't you agree that "high-level" implies a higher degree of abstraction?
03:38:12 <ihope> I wouldn't say the implementation "happens to be" very similar. There's a big mathematical reason for it.
03:38:23 <pikhq> And caring about the *sign bit* sure as hell isn't high level.
03:38:25 <ihope> ...or maybe I would. :-P
03:39:07 <bsmntbombdood> i guess i mean it would be stupid in a to-the-metal language
03:39:12 <lament> another example: C has strings, despite them being simply arrays of characters
03:39:19 <lament> but C abstracts the implementation
03:39:27 <bsmntbombdood> the only reason C has signed and unsigned is so programmers can save a bit
03:39:31 <lament> it's a high-level feature
03:39:44 <pikhq> Funny, I thought that C did no abstraction on that. . .
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06:16:04 <bsmntbombdood> blaspheme (plural blasphemes) 1. Things said against the Church or God.
06:16:39 <pikhq> Gregor is a diety in the Church of Esome.
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07:16:24 <oklokok> (lament) bsmntbombdood: when you see a[b] and b[a], you think the same thing? <<< if i see *(a+b) and *(b+a), i do not think about the same thing
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07:32:30 <oklokok> bsmntbombdood sure knows how to make a conversation out of nothing
07:33:39 <oklokok> you sure know how to press the buttons of these esolangists
07:33:49 <oklokok> i've seen it happen before
07:35:19 <oklokok> well yes, i just like to make my words wrong
07:35:31 <oklokok> esolinguist does sound kinda nice
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08:01:04 <Sukoshi> Python's generators are just continuations, aren't they?
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09:13:21 <Sukoshi> I'm starting to understand what Pythonic code is.
09:13:33 <Sukoshi> Coding in Python feels very Lispy indeed.
09:17:02 <Sukoshi> I forgot that you use Scheme functionally.
09:19:19 <Sukoshi> In general, I code imperatively, unless it's a small utility thing.
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14:35:00 <ihope> My client was repeatedly trying to connect to freenode with the nick %ihope.
14:35:06 <ihope> ...which is invalid.
14:39:26 <ehird`> he is rebelling against the use of % as his command character
14:40:00 <ihope> Get him in here and see if %ihope does anything.
14:40:36 <ihope> (Op me in #implang while you're at it, will you? :-P)
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14:41:16 <blahbot`> quit, eval, ps, kill, cmds, help, reload, join, part, send, topic, raw, bf, parse, reduce, nc, wapr, rp (use %help for argument information)
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15:23:48 <oklokok> can i still ruin the party?
15:23:59 <oklokok> i guess i can if that was but a reboot
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15:35:14 <oklokok> is that a 'hi' for everyone individually or a general 'hi'?
15:36:49 <oklokok> i'm talking about this spesific case
15:37:31 <RodgerTheGreat> as I said, implementation-defined- think of yourself as an interpreter (implementation), whereas my statement constitutes a program
15:39:09 <ehird`> i am a buggy implementation
15:41:23 <oklokok> my implementation does not guess if it's not sure, while i know i have a direct contact to the programmer in time of need
15:41:36 <oklokok> so, can you, the programmer, tell me what you meant?
15:42:35 <oklokok> the greatest problem in undefined behavior is that you make fun of the compilers, i have to agree with that
15:44:01 <RodgerTheGreat> well, It appears I make a call to NGenerateGroup_GrePi or something.
15:46:29 <ehird`> pushobj (hi->every)one $$
15:46:42 <ehird`> which is saying hi to every, and only one every, and "fuck you" to everyone else and i am not every :(
15:48:19 <ehird`> you should write it as
15:48:45 <ehird`> $inline_bytecode [ pushobj everyone ] \hi% exit;
15:49:08 <pikhq> Looks like valid Tcl.
15:50:22 <ehird`> foreach isn't in the standard
15:50:29 <pikhq> Greet everyone in #esoteric
15:50:34 <ehird`> also, greet ->x; only works if your interpreter has the iso-morphism honorific rule
15:50:48 <ehird`> pikhq: everyone can still be parsed as (EXPR->every)one
15:51:09 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: what if everyone is autoboxed into "everyone"? Then we run into the same problem as ehird`'s compiler
15:51:23 <ehird`> ah, wait, a less-hacky portable version can be done with the pattern-matching name feature
15:53:05 <ehird`> there's a shortcut for that
15:54:31 <ehird`> an unbounded-for with a method-accessor can be shortened
15:54:51 <ehird`> and, since it's unambigious here, the full code is
15:55:10 <RodgerTheGreat> alright, so do all the test compilers here agree upon the acceptability of the new standard "$ greet"?
15:55:54 <ehird`> you can make it shorter by one character
15:56:10 <ehird`> using the operator-postfix-matching feature
15:56:28 <ehird`> and, since greet is the default entry method
15:56:54 <ehird`> which is unambigiously equal to &
15:57:01 <ehird`> so, i suggest "&" as a replacement for "hi everyone"
16:06:29 <ehird`> does this compile right to everyone?
16:16:04 <ehird`> such a slow irp response.
16:18:16 <ihope> ehird`: that's what happens when your interpreter is out having breakfast.
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16:49:45 <ihope> sebbu: do you speak French at all?
16:50:34 <sebbu> it's my mother tongue
16:51:09 <ihope> Well, there's this sort of experimental thing I... am doing, kind of.
16:51:23 <ihope> Trying to communicate without using English and hoping a new language comes about somehow.
16:51:44 <ehird`> so is #implang abandoned now?
16:52:01 <ihope> I think I'm trying to get more people for it.
16:52:13 <ehird`> but #implang turned into a planned language, didn't it?
16:52:18 <ihope> I guess I'm not sure of whether I'm really doing that.
16:53:00 <ihope> Well, I don't think I really like the way that that's going.
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17:45:10 <oklokok> try to keep that in mind, y'all
17:45:43 <ihope> By "ass", do you mean "donkey" or That Body Part with Many Names?
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18:47:31 <ns_> I should write an Unlambda interpreter in Haskell.
18:47:39 <ns_> Er, why is my nick ns_?
18:47:40 -!- ns_ has changed nick to ihope_.
18:47:54 <ihope_> I guess it didn't get the picture when I said /nick ihope_...
18:52:43 <ehird`> unlambda interpreter in haskell = 5 minute job
18:52:57 <ehird`> just represent the primitives as real haskell functions
18:53:00 <ihope_> I'm taking it slow. :-)
18:56:13 <olsner> hmm... how do you do call/cc in haskell?
18:57:23 <olsner> ah, a monad.. should've guessed ;-)
18:57:36 <pikhq> Unlambda in just about any functional language is trivial. . .
18:57:42 <ihope_> callCC :: (MonadCont m) => ((a -> m b) -> m a) -> m a
18:58:00 <ihope_> Don't tell me I should be done by now. I haven't started yet.
19:00:30 * pikhq should implement Unlambda in Scheme to learn some Scheme. . .
19:00:44 <pikhq> Know of any good Scheme interpreters?
19:01:28 <olsner> we used Chez Scheme for our SICP course
19:01:33 <ihope_> I do know "Write Yourself a Scheme in 48 Hours", a Haskell tutorial which presumably results in a Scheme interpreter.
19:02:08 <olsner> oh, that reminds me that I was thinking of going through that tutorial... any day now
19:02:18 <ihope_> Also, . is to | as ? is to the command Unlambda needs.
19:03:35 <olsner> hmm... please clarify?
19:04:40 <ihope_> `|X returns `X.x where x is the current character. There should be a command--", say--such that `"X returns `X?x where x is the current character.
19:06:50 <ihope_> I think the monad I want is ContT IO.
19:10:25 <ihope_> (Also, I wonder if this kernel update will break ndiswrapper.)
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19:41:31 <ehird`> good scheme interpreter?
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20:41:08 <oklopol> i love that lang, though i haven't really used it
20:41:12 <ihope> It's like an aardvark, except more of a potato.
20:41:16 <oklopol> wouter is one smooth talker
20:41:31 <oklopol> did i remember the name wrong?
20:42:08 <ihope> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aardvark
20:42:49 <oklopol> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Orycteropus_afer_stuffed.jpg omg i've never seen anything this beautiful :O
20:45:47 <ihope> "[The House Mouse] is probably the second most populous mammalian species on Earth (after humans)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Mouse
20:46:06 <ihope> Quite the thing. If humans are the most populous mammal, and they're so big...
20:48:00 <olsner> I'd like to see the top-ten populous animals... things like cockroaches - how many can there be on the entire earth?
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20:48:54 <ihope> Heck, I wonder what the most populous organism is.
20:52:01 <olsner> hehe, the Methuselah Mouse Prize is somewhat like competing in server uptimes, but for mouse breeders
20:52:17 <oklokok> "Heck, i wonder what most people thing an orgasm is."
20:52:36 <olsner> current record: a mouse that lived for 1819 days
20:59:13 <ehird`> MY MOUSE LIVED FOR 14 EO
20:59:30 <ihope> House Mouse: Mus musculus. Apparently "musculus" means "little mouse", and the word "muscle" comes from that.
21:01:23 <ihope> Looks like there have been only four eons.
21:01:28 <ihope> This is the fourth.
21:02:21 <ehird`> so my body has lots of little mice
21:03:40 <ihope> Nope. Ideally, your muscles make it look like there are mice running around under your skin.
21:03:46 <ihope> At least, that's what I've heard on the radio.
21:04:02 <ihope> And that ideal is an old one, not a current one. :-)
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22:36:33 <bsmntbombdood> they say i need a better reason than "just curious"
22:36:59 <olsner> they think you're a terrorist
22:39:30 <oklopol> also i think he's a terrorist... who in their right mind would have 'bomb' in their nick unless they're a terrorist...
22:39:53 <GregorR> Claim it's for a school project.
22:40:56 <bsmntbombdood> but, they invited me to come talk to their engineer who could show me how the system works
22:41:08 <bsmntbombdood> which is probably what they would have done if i said it was for school
22:43:11 <Sukoshi> lament: Python is indeed very nice.
22:43:22 <Sukoshi> The only thing I don't like about it is the somewhat-shoddy OOP.
22:43:51 <Sukoshi> What's the point of having to include self as a parameter in each object method?
22:44:47 <oklopol> foo.bar() is just syntactic sugar for class_of_foo.bar(foo)
22:45:11 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: Claim you are writing a novel about a volcano erupting in the city and you think the storm drains could be used to re-direct lava.
22:45:40 <SimonRC> That was the plot of some movie the "sci-fi" channel show occasionally
22:45:44 <Sukoshi> I realize that oklopol, but still, they could have made the system a bit more OOP-ish.
22:45:50 <SimonRC> several of their movies in fact
22:45:54 <Sukoshi> If it's, as it claims, ``built-around-OOP''.
22:46:31 <SimonRC> erm, you are using a silly definition of OOP
22:47:02 <SimonRC> http://paulgraham.com/reesoo.html
22:47:11 <oklopol> Sukoshi: i don't like the self thing either, but just because i don't like typing the extra 5 characters.
22:47:14 <SimonRC> you are concentrating too much on #9
22:47:26 <SimonRC> otoh, Python is heavily oriented to #9
22:47:35 <Sukoshi> Yes I am. I'm assuming a message-passing system with methods belonging to classes that naturally perform state-based behavior.
22:47:40 <bsmntbombdood> SimonRC: that wouldn't require knowing the real locations
22:48:07 <Sukoshi> On that assumption, which I believe is tacit when referring to Python, I make my arguments :)
22:48:11 <bsmntbombdood> Sukoshi: self is explicitly passed, rather than implicitly
22:48:17 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: it might do. Depends if there is a bright that falls down blocking it or something
22:48:28 <pikhq> SimonRC: You've just commited a grave logical fallacy: Argumentum ad Paul Graham.
22:48:29 <SimonRC> you could just walk round them and map them yourself
22:48:39 <bsmntbombdood> i wouldn't know where the tunnels and outfalls are
22:48:55 <bsmntbombdood> and which manholes are storm drains and which are sanitary/water
22:48:59 <SimonRC> pikhq: I just think there is more to OO than the Smalltalk family
22:49:28 <SimonRC> ah, I was thining of storm drains as the big open things like in the movie Grease.
22:49:46 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: with pleasure
22:49:47 <Sukoshi> I'm familliar with the different systems but, it is a bit baroque to talk about edge cases of a multimethod system when referring to a message-passing system, is my point :)
22:49:53 <pikhq> Besides, he ignores Snit's delegation behavior. . .
22:49:59 <oklopol> we'll do that next time you're in finland
22:50:15 <bsmntbombdood> if i could find the outfalls, i wouldn't need the map
22:55:35 <bsmntbombdood> maybe i can get someone to go taxpayer on their ass
22:56:04 <SimonRC> ``<oklokok> "Heck, i wonder what most people thing an orgasm is."'' <--- ?!?!
22:56:59 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: with that there is always the worry that they will offer you a refund. :-)
23:00:38 <lament> speaking of OO, haskell so doesn't have any :(
23:03:18 <SimonRC> by the reeese definitions, it has 1, 2, 4, 5, and 7
23:06:52 <oklopol> SimonRC: that was how i read what ihope said a couple lines before that
23:09:32 <lament> by the what definitions?
23:13:14 <ihope> I guess fixing ndiswrapper is a little fun.
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23:21:06 <SimonRC> lament: http://paulgraham.com/reesoo.html
23:27:24 <lament> i don't think 5 applies to haskell, but in any case the fact that so many definitions apply seems to suggest that that list of definitions is bullshit
23:27:33 <ehird`> http://pi.ytmnd.com/ ha! i love that song. it also occurs to me that this is an excellent way to memorize pi
23:29:32 <ihope> I don't think I get number 1.
23:33:42 <oklopol> i should make an infinite flash piece for pi
23:34:05 <ihope> Mmh, I don't want to have a password anymore.
23:34:17 <ihope> I've typed it rather a many times today.
23:42:48 * GregorR 's laptop has a fingerprint scanner.
23:43:33 * pikhq 's desktop has a unique entry method composed of a collection of alphanumeric buttons, used for both textual and mathematic input
23:44:34 <GregorR> Is this new and unique method of input called a "keyboard"?
23:44:38 <ehird`> oklopol: but can you make it generate that song
23:44:56 <ehird`> it's just a beat + some vocals :p
23:45:03 <ehird`> record vocals for 0-9 and some patterns of numbers,
23:45:15 <ehird`> play the background using some synthesiser or whatever
23:45:22 <ehird`> and play the vocal samples on top while scrolling by pi
23:45:30 <ehird`> perfect way to memorize pi!
23:46:07 <ihope> Typing my password requires pressing Shift four times... which isn't that bad, I guess.
23:46:34 <pikhq> GregorR: Yes, it is! Quite incredible! (I take it you have one, too!)
23:46:47 <ehird`> um for some reason these digits popped into my head 2058914058291749238410697980
23:46:49 <GregorR> pikhq: I have at least four :P
23:46:53 <ehird`> i think they are in pi somewhere, but i got a part wrong
23:47:03 <GregorR> pikhq: I also have a touchscreen laptop OOOOH BURN
23:47:08 <ehird`> near the start, of course
23:47:15 <ihope> Touchscreen laptop?
23:47:20 <ihope> My laptop has a touchpad!
23:47:22 <pikhq> 4, if you count a broken laptop, an AT keyboard, and a keyboard without a space bar.
23:47:44 <pikhq> Well, I *have* the space bar. . .
23:47:50 <pikhq> Just a few feet away from the keyboard.
23:48:59 <ihope> Yay, I now better know what the problem with ndiswrapper is!
23:49:28 <ihope> (Cool. One of the spelling suggestions for "ndiswrapper" is "handicappers".)
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00:52:32 <bsmntbombdood> that map is public record and denying me access to it is punishable by 90 days in jail
00:52:37 <bsmntbombdood> according to the colorado revised statutes, title 24, section 72, part 2
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02:20:04 <ihope> bsmntbombdood: what map?
02:25:33 <ihope> Here, have a law: if an emergency vehicle is approaching, pull over and stop.
02:26:06 <ihope> Apparently no exception is made for freeways.
02:29:18 <ihope> Oh, I was wondering and... apparently I felt like saying that.
02:33:50 <bsmntbombdood> i hate how in a torrent with many files, all the files are 50% done instead of half of them all done
02:36:36 <ihope> Seems that if you're on a freeway and there's an emergency vehicle in the thing connecting the two roads, you're supposed to move one lane "apart" from the vehicle if possible.
02:37:14 <ihope> What does "one lane apart" mean, exactly?
02:37:29 <ihope> With one lane between the vehicles, or one lane over?
02:37:42 <ihope> That is, not in the same lane?
02:39:00 <pikhq> That describes most of the US.
02:39:16 <pikhq> Especially our fondness for urban sprawl and a lack of decent public transportation.
02:43:47 <Sukoshi> If you have knowledge and don't use it, you're a hippy.
02:44:19 <ihope> I guess the government's decided that 120 MPH is the fastest relative we want to have in a head-on collision.
02:44:28 <ihope> s/relative/relative speed/
02:44:55 <bsmntbombdood> wrong, if you're talking about the federal government
02:45:08 <ihope> I said just "the government" for a reason :-P
02:45:28 <ihope> Are there higher speed limits than 55 for two-way traffic elsewhere?
02:45:32 <bsmntbombdood> 75mph is the fastest speed limit allowed if you want to receive highway funding
02:45:36 <ihope> Heck, are there higher speed limits here?
02:46:03 <ihope> Freeways... there's nothing for a while, and then suddenly there's an on-ramp and you find yourself between two cars when there are only two lanes. :-)
02:46:10 <bsmntbombdood> that is, a state must have a maximum speed limit <= 75mph to get highway funding
02:46:35 <ihope> Can states have a speed limit of 75 on a two-way road?
02:47:03 <bsmntbombdood> i think states can have whatever speed limits they like
02:47:35 <ihope> Well, yeah, but if they want highway funding.
02:47:39 <ihope> "In 1865, the revised Locomotive Act reduced the speed limit to 4 mph in the country and 2 mph in towns." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limit
02:48:18 <bsmntbombdood> that is of dubious constitutionality, in my opinion
02:57:52 <Sukoshi> http://www.isbc.com/business/mistakes.cfm
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03:16:46 <ihope_> There. Now that everything's upgraded and I have my wireless connection working again, I can actually start work on that Unlambda interpreter.
03:22:47 <bsmntbombdood> i wonder if you can implement call/cc with tree-rewriting
03:25:28 <ihope_> Rather, a continuation monad.
03:27:34 <ihope_> Parsing into a Haskell data structure and then running.
03:29:48 <bsmntbombdood> write an unlambda to brainfuck compiler in unlambda
03:32:52 <ihope_> Why not a Haskell-to-Unlambda compiler?
03:33:34 <bsmntbombdood> although simplified haskell to unlambda might be interesting
03:33:36 * ihope_ decides that adding a useful combinator to Unlambda is worth removing its comment functionality
03:34:08 <bsmntbombdood> haskell is just too complicated to write a compiler for fun for
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03:36:34 <bsmntbombdood> i have no idea how to compile a functional language to bf
03:38:43 <pikhq> PEBBLE functions. :p
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03:43:57 <pikhq> No, I mean "functions" as in "they work".
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07:41:09 <oklokok> (bsmntbombdood) i hate how in a torrent with many files, all the files are 50% done instead of half of them all done <<< get a good torrent program...
07:44:18 <oklokok> you have to manually tell it to dl them one by one though
07:44:43 <oklokok> you can assign separate dl speeds for individual files
07:46:40 <oklokok> i have no idea... but perhaps.
07:46:57 <oklokok> i have a feeling there are decent programs for unix as well...
07:47:49 <oklokok> actually, the reason i'm doing my torrenting on this machine is that i can use torrent
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08:38:06 <Sukoshi> Deluge is the equivalent for *nix, bsmntbombdood.
08:38:18 <Sukoshi> Once I found Deluge, I pretty much abandoned my own torrent client.
08:38:25 <Sukoshi> (Even though I had most of it done.)
08:39:06 <Sukoshi> I'm going to start hacking at Deluge though. First thing I want to do is add stuff from BitTyrant's new BT paper.
08:39:51 <Sukoshi> They have a new piece obtaining and queueing algorithm to speed up a torrent.
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15:44:49 <wellons> Does anyone know about a brainfuck implementation that can multithread several programs working on the same memory array?
15:46:25 <oklokok> seveninchbread did something like that
15:55:21 <oklokok> (i had to split to multiple lines for obvious reasons)
15:56:19 <oklokok> if sib comes here, you can ask him, though it isn't exactly that hard making it yourselfidy helfity
15:57:21 <wellons> i wrote something similar yesterday
16:01:49 <wellons> and, i don't see the reason for splitting to multiple lines... :-(
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16:14:58 <wellons> you need subversion, use this command: svn checkout https://opensvn.csie.org/wbf2c/trunk wbf2c
16:15:36 <wellons> i have a website that explains things a bit here: http://www.cse.psu.edu/~wellons/bf/
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18:19:45 <SimonRC> http://www.piepalace.ca/blog/asperger-test-aq-test/
18:24:34 <oklokok> "When I talk, it isn't always easy for others to get a word in edgeways. " like... it's hard to get to say something when i'm saying something?
18:24:56 <oklokok> i actually cannot translate "edgeways" there...
18:25:38 <GregorR> That's partially because the phrase is "can't get a word in edge-WISE"
18:25:58 <GregorR> And it means nobody will shut up for long enough to let you talk :)
18:26:02 <oklokok> i still don't know what it means there :<
18:26:12 <oklokok> so i totally failed what it mean
18:26:19 <GregorR> So when this guy talks, he just babbles on and on and on and nobody else can talk.
18:26:51 <GregorR> <GregorR> And it means nobody will shut up for long enough to let you talk :) << Was referring to the normal phrase, not his variation :)
18:27:29 <oklokok> "I would rather go to the theatre than a museum. " you'd have to pay me a lot to get me to either...
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18:30:57 <Arrogant> I'd rather go to the moon than a theater
18:30:59 <oklokok> hmm... i can remember any phone number easily, for just about as long as i like... then again there's no way for me to remember a birthday... so i prolly get "average" on that just for having a weird memory
18:31:27 <oklokok> well, i can remember any number as long as it doesn't mean anything to me
18:31:43 <oklokok> when it gets a meaning, i remember the meaning
18:32:44 <oklokok> i have a feeling i'd get a better score if i actually talked to a doctor :P
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18:44:28 <wellons> You need javascript for it to work...
18:44:59 <ihope> Not that I answered all the questions honestly.
18:47:33 <sp3tt> I got like 120/140 on one once :(
18:48:48 <oklokok> well, i'm pretty good at getting friends, but people usually think of me as "the weird guy"
18:50:00 <oklokok> i really can't believe any of you is less geek than me
18:52:07 <ihope> I got it up to 49.
18:53:06 <oklokok> actually, i can easily think of any of those options suiting me
18:53:51 <oklokok> those are general big-picture questions, so i basically just pick a random situation i've been in and answer based on that
18:56:12 <oklokok> "I enjoy doing thing spontaneously." <<< thing is a character in addam's family
18:56:24 <oklokok> does this refer to masturbation?
18:56:43 <oklokok> like... hold on a min, i'll do some quick masturbation
18:59:17 <oklokok> i guess i'd have the same answer were it either
19:00:35 <Arrogant> doing thing is a bit different than masturbation
19:01:52 <oklokok> well, i'm deriving it from the fact "masturbation" means "desecrating the hand"
19:04:14 <oklokok> "bbl guys, gotta do some thing ->"
19:04:29 <oklokok> "i hope you mean something"
19:04:58 <oklokok> i hate how i always fail quoting
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19:32:47 <SimonRC> Actually I think it is "The Thing".
19:33:27 <poiuy_qwert> The Thing is a movie, Thing is the hand from The Adams Family
19:34:06 <oklokok> the thing is something by King?
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20:18:42 <ehird`> random idea for some snippit of code:
20:19:03 <ehird`> accepts mouse-written drawings, then using some kind of OCR, converts it into mathematical notation in real time
20:19:30 <ehird`> so you could e.g. draw 231, a line beneath it, then 500 beneath that, it'd convert it correctly, then display a latexified (or whatever) version at the same size, replacing the drawing
20:19:44 <ehird`> once you've drawn the whole thing, it'll be converted to latex + displayed as an image
20:19:53 <ehird`> and, presumably, you could evaluate it or whatever
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20:20:57 <oklokok> hmm.. i'm not sure if it does that though... i just know it has something like that
20:21:07 <oklokok> prolly something ridiculously simple
20:21:08 <ehird`> well, i'll show a sort-of-example
20:21:15 <ehird`> i write "1 +" using my mouse
20:21:45 <ehird`> within some very short space of time (hopefully <1 second), it'll disappear and be replaced by whatever latex looks like when rendering the equivilent equation, at roughly the same size
20:21:46 <oklokok> have you seen the video where the guy draws a cart on a blackboard then draws a play button and makes it move?
20:21:50 <ehird`> same as i carry on with the expression
20:22:06 <oklokok> a touchpad that looks like a blackboard that was
20:22:43 <oklokok> you could draw strings and solid objects and make them move realistically in 2d
20:22:52 <ehird`> it'd be pretty nice to be able to, e.g., get a tablet
20:23:08 <ehird`> write some mathematical notation, look up at the app and see it in rendered latex form
20:23:09 <oklokok> also, your thing would be fun if you have a touchpad
20:23:15 <ehird`> and be able to evaluate it and stuff
20:23:54 <ehird`> like maybe if you wrote = and left it for a second it would evaluate :)
20:24:20 <SimonRC> might be good for code too...
20:24:22 <oklokok> hmm... an ski parser that did that would be fun :P
20:24:35 <oklokok> i know there's a flash thingie, but you don't draw anything in that
20:24:47 <SimonRC> IWBNI you could draw decision trees and tables and turn them into programs
20:25:06 <SimonRC> I am sure this has actually been done before, but not, I suspect, with handwriting recognition.
20:25:24 <SimonRC> Now there is a nice PhD topic
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20:25:41 <ehird`> SimonRC: but i think mathematical notation lends itself to being written more than, e.g. a decision tree
20:25:56 <ehird`> anything mathematical is simplest when you write it
20:26:14 <ehird`> however, programming languages and decision trees and stuff - maybe not, they were designed for keyboard entry
20:26:40 <SimonRC> Have you seen a Haskell paper?
20:27:02 <SimonRC> Haskell as programmed in is a mere shadow of the notation that the programmers have in their heads
20:27:22 <SimonRC> in papers, the ASCII-art becomes nice math notations
20:28:01 <ehird`> when i program haskell i see haskell code... not mathematical notation
20:28:40 <SimonRC> (<- => -> become arrows, | bceomes a proper bar, ++ join together, <+> <*> become symbol-in-diamond, etc)
20:29:48 <oerjan> they use a preprocessor called lhs2tex
20:30:43 <SimonRC> I feel that that notation is the "real" Haskell, and the programmed format is an approximation to it.
20:31:01 <ehird`> i think haskell is what the haskell report defines it as.
20:31:18 <oerjan> the programmed format may be older.
20:32:18 <ehird`> show me an example of the notation
20:35:29 <ehird`> so i can see what it looks like
20:37:39 <ehird`> would this be a scientific, based-in-reality test or a quiz test
20:38:44 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.piepalace.ca/blog/asperger-test-aq-test/
20:39:22 <bsmntbombdood> it might as well be called a "social ability test"
20:40:00 <SimonRC> except for the bits about dates and telephones and obsession
20:41:07 <ehird`> i'll probably do shite on it
20:41:09 <ehird`> and i have no idea why
20:41:25 <ehird`> quiz/test-type things just always give the opposite of what i really am :p
20:42:57 <ehird`> WHERE is the submit button
20:43:07 <SimonRC> you fill it in, then you get an answer at the bottom
20:43:33 <lament> lots of scheme stuff replaces the word 'lambda' with the symbol lambda
20:43:43 <ehird`> " Scores over 32 are generally taken to indicate Asperger's Syndrome or high-functioning autism, with more than 34 an "extreme" score."
20:44:17 <ehird`> well; that fits considering i do have aspergers
20:45:36 <lament> at any rate, "texed" haskell certainly looks pretty
20:45:52 <lament> but ascii is not too shabby either
20:46:12 <ehird`> i think i got some of the questions wrong; anyway
20:46:22 <ehird`> i protrayed myself to be a bit more sociable than i am :p
20:47:20 <lament> i think the whole point of that test is that it examines your opinion of yourself, rather than what you actually are
20:47:30 <lament> for example, the first question "I prefer to do things with others rather than on my own."
20:47:35 <lament> that doesn't even mean anything
20:47:39 <lament> what kind of "things"?
20:47:54 <oklokok> sex is the only thing i like doing with other people
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20:49:10 <lament> i certainly prefer to do foo, bar and baz with others, while qux and quux i will gladly do on my own.
20:50:39 <lament> "I am fascinated by numbers." - does this belong in a test on aspergers?
20:51:49 <bsmntbombdood> if there's any numbers in it, it's not abstracted enough
20:52:29 <oklokok> helios24 has always been a bit primitive to me
20:53:04 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: just think of numbers as the skeleton category of Set
20:55:27 <lament> wee, i got 26 on the test
20:55:44 <lament> barely beating a math contest winner
20:58:28 <lament> but of course it's useless without some sort of an indication of possible error size/probability
20:58:50 <lament> which i suspect to be around +- 10...
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21:03:47 <ehird`> irc needs some sort of unicode macro system
21:03:55 <ehird`> \+- transforms into ± or something
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21:05:47 * ehird` finds a joined ++ in unicode so he can say "unicode is ++good"
21:12:12 <ehird`> someone should modify nethack and make it abuse unicode and control characters to hell
21:12:15 <ehird`> i bet you could get it looking really good
21:15:45 <ehird`> what about a unicode befunge
21:16:58 <ehird`> INTRODUCING THE ‽♯ PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE
21:17:06 <ehird`> Designed to be the first name solely in unicode.
21:17:22 <oklokok> my friend made unicode print quite cool mazes
21:17:44 <oklokok> ...yes, he programmed a maze generator in unicode
21:17:59 <olsner> is unicode turing complete?
21:18:16 <olsner> a maze generator *generating* unicode is a different matter entirely
21:20:43 <ehird`> turing complete unicode... that makes my mouth water
21:20:48 <ehird`> a turing complete CHARACTER SET
21:21:53 <RodgerTheGreat> just add some control characters that can do branching.... oooh...
21:23:24 <olsner> the algorithm for bidirectional rendering of text seems quite intricate though - a few carefully inserted extra rules could perhaps make it turing complete
21:24:13 <ehird`> i would love to see 99 bottles of beer in unicode using loops of some sort
21:24:30 <RodgerTheGreat> this is probably rather like my theory that HTML by itself is *very nearly* TC
21:25:19 <ehird`> it has nothing that would make it close to tc
21:25:28 <ehird`> it is in every way the archetypical markup language
21:25:50 <ehird`> that doesn't really count
21:25:53 <RodgerTheGreat> form elements and passed parameters via URLs also offer some possibilities
21:26:07 <ehird`> or HTML+some way to handle passed parameters
21:27:52 <RodgerTheGreat> I had an idea a while back for a network protocol in which the packet format represented a TC language that could be used for writing all kinds of networking utilities, games, file-transfer programs and viruses
21:28:17 <ehird`> sounds nicely esoteric
21:28:40 <olsner> RodgerTheGreat: make timing matter too ;-)
21:28:56 <olsner> the entire language is one big race condition, hehe
21:29:00 <RodgerTheGreat> and the fun part was that the system itself centered around being p2p- you'd "set up" a network by firing off a worm that would traverse the network and build routing databases on all the computers
21:30:02 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: don't allow the interpreter to access HD or just about any unprotected external data, of course
21:30:36 <bsmntbombdood> you can dos much easier if you're given a turing machine...
21:30:54 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: "scripts" - it's just binary data, right?
21:31:24 <ehird`> i think it should be low-level simple binary data... more like a protocol :)
21:31:33 <ehird`> make a simple assembler or something
21:32:02 <ehird`> obviously you want the data actually transmitted as compact as humanly possible
21:32:11 <RodgerTheGreat> self-modification and spawning new packets was a common practice, and the loopback device becomes really handy
21:32:13 <ehird`> otherwise the latency for something like, say the WWW, would be staggering
21:32:32 <oklopol> unicode could be tc if you added regexes natively and expanded them with a macro system
21:32:51 <oklopol> anyway, i'm gonna eat a food ->
21:35:18 <lament> I really love the idea of unicode macros
21:35:34 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: how many opcodes do you think you could squeeze it down to?
21:35:46 <lament> i wonder if there's an implementation alreday
21:36:08 <ehird`> you could name them 0-F for obvious reasons :P
21:36:23 <ehird`> though for actually using the assembler maybe you could think of some better mnemonics, hehe
21:36:31 <ehird`> allow asm macros, though, that act just like an opcode
21:36:39 <ehird`> using only 16 opcodes all the time would be teeeedious
21:37:29 <bsmntbombdood> the more opcodes, the less you need, and it's easier to program
21:37:32 <RodgerTheGreat> the spec was never finished, but I was also considering a high-level version that could be like "code"@AA.45.17.BB# to send a chunk of data off to the next machine
21:37:44 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: this is a >network protocol<
21:37:52 <ehird`> compactness is more important than anything
21:38:04 <bsmntbombdood> you would have to make everything memory-mapped, and you use more space anyway for the addresses
21:38:19 <ehird`> there's plenty of tricks you could do
21:38:45 <RodgerTheGreat> using a full char would allow for a wide range of opcodes with the added benefit of being able to punch in code in a normal text editor
21:39:26 <ehird`> sure, but it uses more space
21:39:33 <ehird`> and yeah, assembler is a must
21:39:53 <ehird`> 32 opcodes should be enough for everyone!
21:39:58 <oklokok> lament: i was just thinking something like kinda like bnf for the macro system... and have tc regexes inbuilt in unicode format. just out of curiosity is that was you had in mind too?
21:40:10 <olsner> 1 is also a power of 2
21:40:36 <ihope> "Your mom is so fat she sat on a binary tree and turned it into a linked list in constant time!"
21:40:44 <ihope> Technically meaningless, but still funny :-)
21:40:45 <lament> oklokok: i was just thinking of something like tex markup...
21:40:58 <ihope> (From SimonRC's link above)
21:41:15 <ehird`> making a useful machine with 16 opcodes would be a challenge indeed
21:41:22 <lament> oklokok: otherwise it would be too smart, and do stuff when you don't expect it to
21:41:40 <oklokok> i'll have to look up tex markup
21:41:43 <lament> (just because you type +-, doesn't mean you always want it turned into a single symbol)
21:42:28 <lament> of course it can't be tex markup, because then you won't be able to discuss tex markup :)
21:42:39 <lament> MSN simply uses (foo) for its markup
21:42:56 <lament> obviously that can't work in the context of programming discussions
21:43:09 <oklokok> people have so cute msn nicks
21:43:10 <oklokok> [c=3][c=38][c=27][c=23][c=29][c=46][/c]a[/c]n[/c]s[/c]k[/c]u[/c].krisu, joku teini<<33
21:43:39 <ehird`> (the eyes would bleed even more if i had msn plus and could see the colours)
21:44:12 <oklokok> i could see the colors if i put that option on, but i hate colors and i love ascii line noise so that works better for me
21:46:41 * ehird` wonders what's the smallest a single instruction could be cut down to
21:46:48 <ehird`> 4 bits for an opcode is reasonable..
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21:47:14 <SimonRC> oh gods... http://bash.org/?8873
21:47:59 <ehird`> a jpg containing a screenshot of hello.jpg
21:48:11 <ehird`> hello.(jpg^aleph_0).jpg
21:48:24 <SimonRC> ehird`: indeed. The Tornado fighter used 4-bit opcodes
21:48:39 <ehird`> SimonRC: did it use 0-F as mnemonics? :p
21:49:24 <olsner> ehird`: do you *really* think it had mnemonics? :P
21:51:12 <ehird`> hm, opcodes don't need to be able to take immediate values
21:51:27 <ehird`> if you have a few registers..
21:51:55 <olsner> I guess you'd need load, store and some way to tell load and store where to load/store from/to
21:52:51 <olsner> OP <imm> --> LD addr-to-data,reg; OP reg
21:53:06 <olsner> but the address is a kind of immediate ;-)
21:53:17 <ehird`> i meant apart from the address :p
21:53:32 <olsner> then no, you wouldn't need immediates
21:53:37 <ehird`> all i need is LD addr <immediate>, ST addr <immediate> and addresses
21:54:49 * ehird` makes decisions for the architecture
21:54:55 <ehird`> i think i'll use a sign bit it's simple
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22:35:50 <ehird`> what are the implications of -0
22:42:15 * ehird` thinks that he can squeeze a single opcode into 12 bits
22:43:35 <ehird`> INS INS INS INS ARG1 ARG1 ARG1 ARG2 ARG2 ARG2
22:43:43 <ehird`> where each argument is a register name
22:43:47 <ehird`> of course, LOAD and STORE would be exceptions
22:44:10 <ehird`> err, what am i talking about
22:44:47 <ehird`> INS INS INS ARG1 ARG1 ARG1 ARG2 ARG2 ARG2
22:44:56 <ehird`> then all of the components are balanced
22:46:05 <ehird`> ... good enough. 9 bits is insanely small!
22:47:25 <ehird`> and III gives me 8 opcodes
22:47:38 <ehird`> so what should i make it?
22:47:54 <ehird`> I I I 1 1 2 2 (SPECIAL QUANTUM CONTAINING BOTH A BIT OF 1 AND 2)
22:49:07 <ehird`> hmm, having LD and ST instructions longer than others could cause real problems
22:51:11 <ehird`> someone suggest an extremely compact instruction format :p
22:52:16 <bsmntbombdood> ...8 bit opcode, the following bits the operands, the number of which depends on the opcode
22:52:31 <ehird`> wait a minute, i should only need 2 bits for each argument
22:52:36 <ehird`> i mean, 3 registers is enough, right?
22:53:04 <ehird`> that'd all be done with some special instructions
22:53:26 <ehird`> LD REGISTER1 memaddr, MEM REGISTER1
22:53:29 <bsmntbombdood> ...some opcodes take 0 bytes of operand, some take 4
22:53:35 <ehird`> and then REGISTER1 would have the value at memaddr or something
22:53:43 <ehird`> and then you'd have MEMSET memaddr
22:53:56 <ehird`> i'm going for "frickin' tiny", not "extensible"
22:55:34 <ehird`> 1. relatively usable - if you're familiar with computer internals and asm, you should be able to program it with relative ease
22:55:37 <ehird`> 2. as tiny as possible
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22:58:13 * ehird` wonders what bit-ness he should make the machine
22:58:47 <ehird`> question: is nop actually essential?
22:58:54 <ehird`> i mean, i think you could get away without nop most of the time
23:00:24 <ehird`> damnit why is my computer making very high pitched and very short beeps randomly
23:01:20 <ehird`> i really don't think NOP is needed
23:01:39 <olsner> I think NOP is the quintessential non-essential operation :P
23:01:58 <olsner> *perhaps* useful to fill branch delay slots though
23:02:03 <ehird`> it seems to get an absurd amount of use
23:02:18 <ehird`> one very unneeded thing is ifneq
23:02:25 <ehird`> ifneq X Y Z can just be:
23:05:30 <ehird`> if anyone has a convincing argument for it, tell me
23:05:57 <ehird`> olsner: LD addr-to-data,reg
23:06:05 <ehird`> olsner: how would you put this data in the address? :)
23:06:50 <olsner> ehird`: let's say addresses 0-200 is code and 200-250 is data... just LD 201,reg1 to load the contents of address 201 into register 1
23:07:10 <olsner> and ST reg1,201 would put a recalculated value back into memory
23:07:31 <ehird`> (modern assemblers have broken my soul :D)
23:07:46 <olsner> not really - it could be loading code into registers to modify itself
23:07:48 <ehird`> only 200 bits for code though? lame :P
23:08:19 <olsner> nah, just let bits 0-31 control the page number :P
23:09:21 <ehird`> i think i only need 2 bits for addresses
23:09:29 <ehird`> i mean, 4 addresses is enough to be comfortable with, right?
23:09:41 <ehird`> olsner: how would you personally define ST?
23:09:52 <ehird`> st reg,addr puts the value in reg in the memory addr?
23:10:23 <olsner> 4 addresses? that's just the same as having 4 registers though :P
23:11:33 <ehird`> of course i shall use more for addresses :)
23:11:38 <ehird`> "i think i only need 2 bits for REGISTERS"
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23:13:01 <ehird`> i wonder how many bits i should use for addresses
23:14:05 <ehird`> only 128 places of addressable memory?
23:14:35 <ehird`> now i have to decide what size to use for the values stored in memory and registers ;)
23:16:48 <oklopol> people always ask for numbers, but then end up ignoring my nice numbers and having something boring like 16
23:17:27 <ehird`> maybe just 8-bit values :)
23:17:33 <oerjan> well since he is refusing our good luck numbers, i suggest we compromise on 13.
23:17:52 <ehird`> maybe 8-bit values + 4 registers + 8-bit addresses isn't enough?
23:19:05 <oerjan> 8-bit values + 4 registers + 8-bit addresses should be enough for anyone.
23:19:28 <ehird`> do you think it would be enough to implement simple things?
23:19:55 <oklokok> no one is ever really gonna need more than 640k memory
23:20:40 <ehird`> i can't take the sarcasm any longer :(
23:20:56 * oerjan gives ehird` a lollipop.
23:21:19 * oklokok does /me because it's so cool
23:21:58 <oklokok> ehird`: i actually haven't read the logs so i don't really know what you are making :P
23:22:09 <ehird`> oklokok: <ehird`> i'm aiming for
23:22:09 <ehird`> <ehird`> 1. relatively usable - if you're familiar with computer internals and asm, you should be able to program it with relative ease
23:22:09 <ehird`> <ehird`> 2. as tiny as possible
23:22:20 <ehird`> a computer architecture, obviously =p
23:22:49 <oklokok> ah, so making a simulated asm for fun?
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23:25:18 <ehird`> brainfuck breaks rule 1
23:25:19 <ehird`> 1. relatively usable - if you're familiar with computer internals and asm, you should be able to program it with relative ease
23:25:49 <oklokok> brainfuck can be coded with relative ease if you learn the basic trixxors
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23:26:47 <oklokok> brainfuck plus arithmetic operators, 4 bits per operator and it's pretty simple to program in
23:26:58 <ehird`> i am not looking to reinvent a brainfuck computer
23:27:16 <ehird`> i am looking to invent a very small architechture spec that is quite easy to program in if you know asm
23:27:45 <oklokok> you making like "the asm".
23:28:20 <ehird`> what the hell does that mean anyway
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23:29:54 <ihope> Well, you'll want it to be very parallel, I think.
23:30:10 <ihope> I think Game of Life is a decent platform.
23:30:25 <ehird`> i just want a simple low-powered computer that can still do 99 bottles of beer and some other stuff with at least mildly readable code
23:30:33 <ihope> Though maybe BBM with quantum extensions would be better.
23:30:55 <ihope> What, you want the assembly/machine code to be readable?
23:30:57 <oklokok> ihope: well done picking up where me and oerjan left
23:31:10 <ehird`> lots of asm code is readable
23:31:16 <ehird`> if you know some asm for some platform, that is
23:32:43 <ihope> Do you know what GCC does to multiply by 10?
23:32:50 <ehird`> ok, the only logic stuff i need is NOT, OR, AND, XOR i think
23:32:54 <ehird`> ihope: x86 asm is not readable
23:33:03 <ehird`> gcc-generated asm is not readable anyway
23:33:22 <ihope> Why do you want the assembly code to be readable?
23:33:34 <oklokok> yeah, who likes readability
23:33:48 <ihope> Why not use a compiler from a high-level language instead?
23:33:57 <ehird`> you really don't get the point of this
23:34:05 <ehird`> i mean readable as in not bloody brainfuck or unlambda!
23:34:11 <ehird`> i don't want some beautiful asm code
23:34:36 <oklokok> ehird`: not trying to make you mad, just tired.
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23:35:10 <ihope> What's wrong with BF and Unlambda, apart from the slowness?
23:35:22 <ehird`> they're hell to program in
23:35:40 <ihope> You want to program in the assembly language?
23:35:44 * ehird` has store, load, move, xor, and, or, not ... hmm .. what next
23:35:49 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: this is still esoteric :)
23:35:53 <ehird`> esoteric != hell to program in
23:36:00 <ehird`> ihope: At least 99bob, sure.
23:38:24 <ihope> So you want readable and small.
23:39:36 <ihope> Typed lambda calculus with data declarations/constructors?
23:39:55 <ihope> I guess you also want it to look like an assembly language.
23:42:44 <ihope> Wait, what do you mean by "small"?
23:43:11 <ihope> Rather, what do you want that I stated as "small"? :-P
23:43:55 <ehird`> http://pastie.caboo.se/86457 here's my instruction set design
23:44:00 <ehird`> i think i might have screwed a part up
23:44:49 <ihope> Doesn't look infinite memory-y.
23:45:20 <ehird`> i'll rectify it tomorrow
23:45:27 <ihope> Looks fine apart from that.
23:45:41 -!- ehird` has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | Rules: 1. Break at least one rule. 2: At least (10^10) bots must be on #esoteric | NOTE TO EHIRD DO NOT REMOVE: \instructionset.
23:45:47 <ehird`> i shall continue it tomorrow
23:45:51 <ihope> Can't you send yourself a memo?
23:46:06 <ihope> Won't clutter up our topic that way.
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23:49:16 <ihope> bsmntbombdood: how often is bsmnt_bot reset?
23:49:44 <ihope> How often does it quit?
23:50:56 <oerjan> ~exec self.raw("QUIT :Or we do")
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23:52:49 -!- ihope has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | Rules: 1. Break at least one rule. 2: At least (10^10) bots must be on #esoteric | NOTE TO EHIRD DO NOT REMOVE: \instructionset.
23:53:15 <ihope> At least that didn't do anything as far as I can tell :-)
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00:38:25 <lament> man, i like haskell, but it tries pretty hard to make me hate it
00:43:09 <lament> i want to write my program, not implement basic math functions :(
00:44:46 <ihope> Haskell's making you implement basic math functions?
00:44:51 <oerjan> i think modding with doubles is a somewhat imprecise operation
00:49:46 <lament> it won't get any more precise from me implementing it
00:50:49 <ihope> You could import it from a C thing.
00:51:09 <ihope> And then eventually, somebody could extend GHC with it...
00:52:01 <lament> yes, exactly, like i said, i'd rather just write foo % bar like i would in Python.
00:55:14 <ihope> ~exec sys.stdout([pi % e, pi - e])
00:55:15 <bsmnt_bot> NameError: name 'pi' is not defined
00:58:20 <ihope> ~exec sys.stdout([math.pi % e, math.pi - e])
00:58:21 <bsmnt_bot> NameError: name 'e' is not defined
00:58:24 <sp3tt> ~exec sys.stdout([math.pi % math.exp(1), math.pi - math.exp(1))
00:58:25 <bsmnt_bot> SyntaxError: unexpected EOF while parsing
00:58:31 <sp3tt> ~exec sys.stdout([math.pi % math.exp(1), math.pi - math.exp(1])
01:00:29 <lament> ~exec sys.stdout((math.pi % math.e, math.pi - math.e))
01:00:29 <bsmnt_bot> (0.42331082513074803, 0.42331082513074803)
01:01:06 <oklokok> lament: are you making fun of the world?
01:02:13 <sp3tt> ~exec sys.stdout(math.exp(math.pi)-math.pi)
01:02:25 <sp3tt> aaaw, your floating point arithmetic is bugged
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01:08:41 <oklopol> like if i'm face to face with someone, which face is mine?
01:10:07 <ihope> (|the latter> + |the former>)/sqrt(2)
01:10:27 <ihope> See? I told you WHICH quantum superposition it is.
01:11:38 <oklopol> or is it like uncheckalbbebvevr
01:12:00 <oklopol> i need a transform of some sort or?
01:12:04 <ihope> But it's different every time you say "face to face".
01:12:33 <sp3tt> the face is both yours and not yours at the same time
01:12:35 <ihope> Oh, actually, the + is a - if you're female.
01:12:43 <ihope> sp3tt: exactly what I just said.
01:12:51 <ihope> Apart from the Schroedinger.
01:13:02 <sp3tt> but I can type it with the umlaut!
01:13:05 <oerjan> the word "face" and the word "phase" are originally the same, i think
01:14:28 <oerjan> the latter coming from the "face" of the moon
01:15:25 <oklopol> i wish i vaguely recalled every bit of information that exists
01:15:42 <ihope> I vaguely recall that P = NP.
01:15:52 <ihope> I don't remember the details.
01:16:01 <sp3tt> I vaguely recall that the cat is dead.
01:16:19 <ihope> I vaguely recall that that proton is blue right now.
01:16:31 <sp3tt> No, it's ultraviolt
01:16:50 <ihope> That's not a color.
01:17:07 <sp3tt> THE PROTON DECAPITATES YOU
01:17:07 <ihope> The only colors are red, green and blue.
01:17:17 <ihope> Unless you count antired, antigreen and antiblue.
01:17:25 <sp3tt> that's only one colorspace
01:17:26 <ihope> Those are the colors of antiprotons, among other things.
01:17:39 <oklopol> hmm... should i sleep in my armchair or my bed
01:18:01 <sp3tt> sleep is for the WEAK
01:18:29 <ihope> Sleep gives you special powers.
01:18:37 <oklopol> i can either sleep or stay awake doing nothing.
01:18:48 <ihope> oklopol: go for the special powers.
01:19:05 <oklopol> hmm... does sound intriguing
01:19:29 <oklopol> i was, though, actually requesting where i should be doing my sleep
01:19:35 <ihope> Special powers like the ability to avoid sleepiness and the ability to not be bored.
01:19:43 <ihope> And the ability to shoot people ethically and legally.
01:19:50 <oklopol> sp3tt: irc is pretty much nothing
01:20:34 <ihope> Staying awake doing nothing, however, gives one the ability to utilize paper and computers.
01:21:08 <ihope> Apart from the fact that you have to do something while doing nothing in order to do that.
01:21:38 <oklopol> doing nothing = doing nothing productive
01:21:53 <oklopol> doing nothing i can "show for my day"
01:22:09 <ihope> Well, paper and computers can be non-productive.
01:22:16 <oerjan> hm, my vague recollection is still a bit vague, the terms are apparently from latin and greek respectively, but had the same meaning so i _still_ think they were related
01:23:12 <oklopol> oerjan: where are there vague articles located that you've been memorizing your whole life, btw?
01:23:19 <oklopol> i might enjoy reading them
01:23:39 <oklopol> i shoud start writing vague articles
01:24:27 <oklopol> unless there actually exist ones
01:27:48 <oklopol> i might endoy flying to istambul or something
01:28:09 <oklopol> guess that would depend on how high i'd fly
01:30:03 <oklopol> ihope: you forgot to tell me how to do something unproductive with the computer
01:30:21 <ihope> Study... er, wait.
01:30:47 <ihope> Or study pointless things!
01:30:54 <ihope> Things that have been proven pointless!
01:31:00 <oklopol> anything i get better at is productive.
01:31:44 <ihope> Not if they don't produce!
01:31:53 <oklopol> hmm... well, okay, since that is actually quite exactly the definition i use, it's pretty easy coming up with non productive stuff
01:31:56 <ihope> Study something that mathematicians already know everything about!
01:32:10 <oklopol> improving my brain is productive.
01:32:32 <oklopol> since it's pretty much all that exists from my point of view.
01:34:19 <ihope> I guess you'll have to do something destructive, then.
01:34:41 <ihope> You can fail to revert vandalism on a wiki!
01:35:00 <oklopol> i could, in theory, just like throw dice all night... the only problem is i'd remember that and list it as the cool feat "throwing dice for 10 hours in a row"
01:37:52 <Sukoshi> And with that, I go to do me daily Japanese work.
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02:18:32 <ihope> Now, are there any optimizing Unlambda compilers/interpreters out there? >:-)
02:27:14 <oerjan> there is a guy in #haskell writing a compiler, i don't know how optimised it will be
02:28:40 <oerjan> also mandelson's interpreter is supposedly much faster than others, although i (vaguely :) ) recall it has some incompatibilities
02:30:09 <oerjan> *is = was, hard to say if it still is fastest when the unlambda homepage hasn't been updated in years
02:42:51 <ihope> Incompatibilities...
02:43:23 <oerjan> i again vaguely recall the d function didn't quite follow the spec, or something like that
02:43:58 <oerjan> possibly he memoized it, or something like that
02:44:34 <oerjan> anyway some program broke when i tested it (my interpreter? i don't recall)
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03:14:36 <GregorR> THE CHALLENGE: Create a joke with the punchline "Baroque Obama"
03:15:03 <Sukoshi> YOUR MOM is BAROQUE OBAMA.
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10:28:39 <asiekierka> a BF loader that fits in a bootsector!
10:28:57 <asiekierka> interperter is NASM 155 bytes (binary compiled)
10:29:31 <asiekierka> 510 - 194 = approx. space for BF code :)
10:30:09 <Sukoshi> I don't know enough about bootcodes, but I wanna read the ASM :)
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10:34:11 <asiekierka> Waiting for JumpF**k, keyboard BF code typing and RAW BF store (to make max size up to 1,4MB)
10:36:10 <Darktemplar> if I make a BF-CommandLineInterface that's gonna be dead :)
10:36:57 <Darktemplar> I don't think I'd fit it in bootloader still
10:37:05 <Darktemplar> perhaps I can fit the CLI, but FS support...
10:37:50 <asiekierka> sending the code with ,[.,] and binaries
10:38:19 <Darktemplar> but frequent stack operating around'em should do
10:40:57 <Sukoshi> You can do what Forth does, blocks for the FS.
10:42:38 <Sukoshi> Each block is a fixed size.
10:43:11 <Sukoshi> So block 21 is just data at address (21 * block-size) + block-offset.
10:44:16 <asiekierka> But look, we want to sometimes store multiple files - oh wait, this can be done with SysLinux+MemDisk+GZip combo :)
10:46:47 <asiekierka> that stores filename you want (8.0 :D) and amount of blocks it takes
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10:50:41 <asiekierka> My friend did a BF reader in a bootsector!
10:51:26 <ehird`> of course you can fit BF into a bootsector
10:51:45 <ehird`> then it isn't BF any more
10:51:48 <asiekierka> and it's smaller than AmigaOS interperter
10:52:48 <ehird`> why is jumpfuck "of course"?
10:52:53 <ehird`> i wrote jumpfuck mainly for compiler writers
10:53:16 <ehird`> this jump fuck? http://esolangs.org/wiki/JumpFuck
10:53:59 <asiekierka> and one my command (if you implement RAW, it shouldn't be hard)
10:54:06 <Darktemplar> another segment register, like FS... yet limiting that stuff to run on 286+
10:54:24 <ehird`> how do people suggest i make this TC? http://pastie.caboo.se/86457 i was thinking maybe a "computed ld/st" which takes its address from a register as well
10:54:40 <ehird`> but i'm not sure which opcodes i'd remove to do it
10:55:11 <asiekierka> and my command... @, Read (actual cell) char from (cell after actual) block to (cell before actual)
10:55:58 <asiekierka> or it may use @(200|3) that will read 200th char from 3rd block (512 bytes/block right?) and save it to actual cell :)
10:56:12 <ehird`> Darktemplar: binary what?
10:56:22 <ehird`> Darktemplar: yes. that's a spec for a computer architechture
10:56:35 <ehird`> but it isn't really meant to be mainly esoteric
10:56:36 <asiekierka> but look, ehird, you'll have first JumpF**k implementation :D
10:57:04 <ehird`> i'm just trying to get an assembly language with the smallest instructions i can while still being relatively easy to use
10:57:10 <asiekierka> If you'll make the new architecture, try and port Darktemplar's bootloader to it
10:58:03 <asiekierka> and ehird`: Do you have any command ideas?
10:58:04 <ehird`> this is meant to be machine code that could feasably be put on a machine
10:58:13 <ehird`> except for a really simple computer where size of code is everythign :)
10:58:18 <asiekierka> since we have 3 more commands to BF, making it total of 11 commands
10:58:27 <ehird`> maybe BF machine's IO commands?
10:58:30 <ehird`> then you could do graphics :p
10:59:07 <Darktemplar> 1111 -> couldn't you make it SwitchToWeirdMode :?
10:59:19 <ehird`> Darktemplar: you need nop :)
10:59:26 <ehird`> what is weird mode anyway
11:00:09 <asiekierka> you could (but not need to) make a command like S(125) that will set current cell to 125
11:00:41 <Darktemplar> like ! - read from port no. current cell and save it in n+1 cell
11:01:35 <Darktemplar> like ADD = CreateCommand("Add.Command","+",NOTPRIVILENGED);
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11:02:26 <ehird`> gwar, why are there no decent binary editors
11:03:21 -!- Darktemplar has left (?).
11:06:40 <ehird`> hehe, tiny infinite loop:
11:07:01 <ehird`> of course that's just the machine code i need headers
11:07:11 <ehird`> asiekierka: that is "111000000000"
11:07:25 <ehird`> look at the spec i posted to see why that loops
11:08:16 <ehird`> 1110 CCCCCCC Jump to C.
11:08:31 <ehird`> and at position 00000000, we have "111000000000"
11:08:40 <ehird`> which jumps to 00000000...
11:09:21 <ehird`> in reality, the shortest infinite loop will be a bit longer
11:09:33 <ehird`> you have to specify how long the code is (so the machine knows where the data section starts)
11:09:38 <ehird`> and that takes 32 bits
11:09:43 <ehird`> i might reduce it to 16.
11:12:12 <ehird`> so the shortest infinite loop is that code i posted
11:12:17 <ehird`> but the shortest infinite loop wrapped in a binary
11:12:56 <ehird`> aka "00000000000000000000000000001100111000000000"
11:13:24 <ehird`> aah, damnit my instruction set has no "halt"
11:13:53 <ehird`> somebody tell me what insutrctions they don't think would get much use in http://pastie.caboo.se/86457 :p
11:16:15 <ehird`> have you EVER coded low-level asm?
11:16:21 <ehird`> do you seriously think NOP is useless?
11:17:48 <ehird`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOP
11:17:56 <ehird`> there are quite a few examples of good use there
11:22:25 <ehird`> I guess for NOP you could do
11:22:44 <ehird`> wait you couldn't do that
11:24:35 <ehird`> ok here's the newest spec: http://pastie.caboo.se/86570
11:24:46 <ehird`> if someone comes up with a nice way to make it TC :)
11:40:10 <ehird`> how much chuck would a chuck wood wood if a chuck wood could wood chuck?
11:48:51 <ehird`> got any ideas for how i can make http://pastie.caboo.se/86570 turing complete? :)
11:52:56 <oklokok> make 1st bit of each memory slot be a swith that expands that memory slot to be as bit as the whole memory
11:53:15 <oklokok> you have to have some infinity there
11:54:31 <asiekierka> how to make a newline in low-level ASM (i'm learning it)
11:57:32 <oklokok> 0D0A in windows, 0A in unix, 0D in mac iirc
12:00:26 <oklokok> you can put that to be sure
12:01:41 <ehird`> is some way to access memory relative to some other location
12:01:48 <ehird`> right now you can only specify an absolute
12:02:05 <ehird`> however i need to keep the instruction set at its current size
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12:03:38 <oklokok> i just like nestable memory slots better :
12:05:32 <ehird`> how would a relative jump make it tc
12:05:38 <ehird`> you still can't access infinite memory
12:06:14 <oklokok> so that memory slot 0000 moves
12:06:26 <oklokok> tc via trivial isomorphism to bf
12:06:54 <ehird`> well it's not really typical then
12:07:00 <ehird`> right now it looks quite a lot like some other simple machine codes
12:07:05 <ehird`> that would make it.. less so
12:07:23 <oklokok> you can also do like 0000-7FFF always program spesific, and 8000-ffff move if relative jump used
12:07:42 <oklokok> and 8000-FFFF would have "infinite" memory for each program
12:08:17 <oklokok> millions of ways to do ittidy
12:08:32 <ehird`> i want it something like most machine codes
12:08:36 <ehird`> they don't use weird hacks like that
12:08:42 <ehird`> they're just... tc in a normal way
12:09:05 <oklokok> okay, then you will have to leave out the "every memory slot is n bits and every address is m bits" attitude.
12:09:32 <oklokok> it will then *look* more like asm in instruction descriptions, but it will inherently be less asm
12:09:48 <oklokok> have you checked an "asm" for a highlevel language?
12:09:57 <oklokok> like python bytecode or jvm
12:09:57 <ehird`> inherently less asm = :(
12:10:24 <ehird`> otherwise code can't be portable across amount of memory
12:10:26 <oklokok> i haven't looked at jvm tbh, but that isn't actually that high-level of course
12:11:05 <oklokok> you could have a way to jump to next "page"
12:11:15 <ehird`> but i have never seen machine code with "mem jump"
12:11:17 <oklokok> that'd make it tc as well, but it'd be cleaner
12:11:23 <ehird`> how DOES most machine code do it anyway?
12:11:31 <ehird`> to handle calculated memory positions?
12:11:35 <ehird`> instead of just immediate values?
12:11:57 <ehird`> do they have a computed store or something
12:12:23 <ehird`> cld r1 r2 - "access the memory whose position is in r1 and store it in r2"
12:12:42 <ehird`> as well as ld r1 addr - "access the memory at addr and store it in r1"?
12:12:48 <ehird`> or something like that?
12:13:41 <oklokok> usually asm has something like thta
12:13:56 <ehird`> i see, that makes sense
12:14:10 <ehird`> I have ld, but not cld
12:14:19 <ehird`> cld would make it turing complete
12:14:27 <ehird`> but i can't add any instructions
12:14:32 <oklokok> then i have misunderstood you... wait a bit
12:14:38 <ehird`> so i need to remove 2 instructions that won't be used much
12:15:34 <oklokok> nop can be hacked in using the others... same goes for many of the calculations, but it might be ugly if you'd just have a random subset of the logicals
12:15:53 <oklokok> (ehird`) cld r1 r2 - "access the memory whose position is in r1 and store it in r2"
12:16:04 <oklokok> and how is that different from ld?
12:16:38 <oklokok> "access the memory whose position is in r1" != "access the memory at addr" ?
12:19:10 <ehird`> it makes it turing complete because
12:19:33 <ehird`> Ah, wait, I'm going to tweak the code a bit
12:20:56 <ehird`> http://pastie.caboo.se/86579
12:20:57 <oklokok> i'm sorry, but i don't see the tucrity.
12:21:13 <ehird`> everything but the first two AAAAAAAAs are register ids
12:21:26 <oklokok> that pastie hates me a lot
12:21:37 <ehird`> now, if i had a version of the first two instructions which instead of the immediate AAAAAAAA took a register AAA, you could do computed memory access
12:21:45 <ehird`> only problem is, i'm out of instructions...
12:21:55 <ehird`> so what two instructions can i get rid of without too much effect?
12:24:28 <oklokok> whell, s/xor and or not/nand nor ;)
12:24:57 <ehird`> i don't want to get rid of not
12:25:20 <ehird`> those are pretty much essential for non-hellish programming
12:27:50 <oklokok> memory management, arithmetic, binary logic, conditional jump, unconditional jump, halt... you pretty much need those if you don't want to do anything far-fetched
12:28:09 <ehird`> but i need two mor memory management instructions
12:28:34 <oklokok> hmm, can you please try to explain how those are different from the ones you have now?
12:29:02 <ehird`> honestly i have no idea how you are having trouble with it
12:29:04 <ehird`> http://pastie.caboo.se/86579
12:29:10 <ehird`> 0000 AAAAAAAA BBB and 0001 AAAAAAAA BBB
12:29:19 <ehird`> AAAAAAAA is an immediate value. in the binary file
12:29:34 <ehird`> EVERY other single argument for EVERY instruction apart from those two AAAAAAAAs, is a register ID
12:29:39 <oklokok> ah well, you can just replace those
12:30:00 <ehird`> with AAA BBB arguments, which take the address from the register
12:30:17 <ehird`> HOWEVER i can't just replace those two
12:30:25 <ehird`> as they supply the >only way to get values from memory<
12:30:34 <ehird`> since, of course, you have to get something into the registers in the first place
12:30:36 <ehird`> before you can add to them
12:30:38 <ehird`> to use them as addresses
12:30:49 <ehird`> if everything is indirect to register values, and every register starts at zero
12:30:52 <ehird`> how do you get a value into a register?
12:31:07 <ehird`> so, i need those normal ST/LD
12:31:09 <oklokok> ah ture, but i'd prefer a way to set a value to a register over those .P
12:31:12 <ehird`> but i also, for turing completeness, need a computed ST/LD
12:31:19 <ehird`> so, i need to replace two instructions
12:31:47 <oklokok> but i can tell you that will not make it tc
12:32:54 <ehird`> well, maybe not completely TC
12:33:01 <ehird`> because of the size of the values
12:33:12 <ehird`> "turing complete" for all practical purposes
12:33:21 <oklokok> oh, if that's all you want, then it already is tc
12:33:24 <ehird`> as in you can write real useful programs in it
12:33:34 <oklokok> except for that stuff you haven't gotten in yet
12:33:37 <ehird`> because accessing relative memory positions and other pointer arithmetic is pretty much mandatory
12:34:02 <ehird`> Hmm - what is the bitshifts in most programming languages? Arithmetic shift or logic shift
12:34:14 <oklokok> i do know that, but as i said, you can just replace those first two with cld and ld and have a way to set a register to a valua
12:34:35 <ehird`> what do you mean what do i mean
12:34:49 <oklokok> arithmetic shift == takes sign into account
12:35:12 <ehird`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_shift
12:35:18 <ehird`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetic_shift
12:35:18 <oklokok> you usually have two shifts in an asm, since asms are rarely typed
12:35:28 <ehird`> ok, well which one should i implement ;)
12:35:59 <ehird`> i don't actually need bit shifts!
12:36:45 <ehird`> and i have the irb session logs to prove it!
12:37:56 <oklokok> that is a way to get a round the need for two different shifts, yes.
12:38:12 <oklokok> if you have multiplication always be signed
12:38:28 <oklokok> usually, you also have two multiplication instructions & division instructions
12:38:53 <ehird`> everything is unsigned in this
12:38:55 <oklokok> so you may want to have everything just unsigned and let ppl get around that on their own
12:39:14 <oklokok> that was my way to say you should naturally have logical shifts
12:39:16 <ehird`> i don't have an exponential oprator though
12:39:29 <ehird`> so the 2 ** N bit might be... annoying to do
12:39:46 <oklokok> that really isn't the easiest way to use one of those operators to emulate another...
12:40:10 <ehird`> i guess though that people would just work out 2 ** N beforehand
12:41:52 <oklokok> >> and << are effectively quick 2**n div/mul... so it's pretty obvious they aren't exactly *needed*
12:43:18 <ehird`> ok i've got a new spec
12:43:24 <ehird`> i'll just put it up now
12:43:59 <ehird`> http://pastie.caboo.se/86585
12:44:18 <ehird`> the first integer doesn't have to be 32-bit...
12:44:21 <ehird`> addresses only go up to 8 bits
12:44:35 <ehird`> wait... that means code will have to be hideously small
12:45:29 <ehird`> that's rather less worrying, hehe
12:47:11 <ehird`> http://pastie.caboo.se/86585 there we go
12:47:26 <ehird`> a turing complete, slightly usable machine architechture
12:47:37 <ehird`> with tiny, tiny, tiny instruction size
12:48:05 <ehird`> now i'll design an asm spec for it!
12:50:32 <ehird`> of course it doesn't have IO...
12:50:37 <ehird`> what do you think i should do to rectify that?
12:50:42 <ehird`> replace two more instructions? :S
12:51:02 <oklokok> you could do the INT instrcution
12:51:36 <oklokok> well yes, but they're nice if you want small instruction size
12:51:46 <oklokok> though... might be a bit cheatish
12:52:38 <ehird`> i think i'll find two more instructions i can remove
12:52:54 <ehird`> and add in and out, both taking AAA BBB
12:53:09 <oklokok> well, arithmetic is used a lot more than binary stuff, and the jump/memory stuff has to be there for it to be an actual programming language
12:53:15 <ehird`> A is the register which contains the port, B is the register which contains what to send
12:53:21 <ehird`> and i'll define some standard ports
12:53:47 <ehird`> A contains the port, A gets replaced with the read value
12:53:56 <ehird`> And, um, I don't have NAND.
12:54:38 <oklokok> or you could just have 4 ports and have the first bit indicate whether it's an output or an input port
12:54:42 <oklokok> hmm... might be a bit ugly
12:54:54 <oklokok> sorry, you're using the register value as the port of course
12:55:02 <ehird`> yeah that's just a sneaky way to add another instructiosn :p
12:55:06 <oklokok> so you'd still have like a million ports
12:55:25 <oklokok> ehird`: i meant i'd say "do the nand"
12:55:59 <ehird`> get rid of not and and
12:56:03 <ehird`> and replace them with nand?
12:56:12 <oklokok> and also remove or and xor
12:56:24 <ehird`> this is meant to be relatively easy
12:56:31 <ehird`> removing all those logic operations just makes it a turing tarpit
12:56:38 <oklokok> yeah... but you don't need binary stuff for most things
12:56:48 <ehird`> its meant to be a turing tarpit in internals, but externally it should be just about normal :)
12:58:16 <ehird`> there appears to be nothing i can remove
12:58:24 <ehird`> 16 instructions are not enough :(
12:58:50 <oklokok> you can remove the first two and add a "set"
12:58:59 <oklokok> and you have one spot open
13:00:21 <oklokok> if you can set register values, you can do stuff like incrementation without having a memory cell that has the number "1" in it...
13:00:38 <oklokok> now you'd have to have a memory slot where you have the number "1" to be able to increment
13:01:11 <oklokok> so... "set" would make the first two unnecessary, make a lot of calculation easier and also make it more pure
13:01:28 <oklokok> because now you have really duplicate instructions
13:02:05 <oklokok> the first two and the ones where memory location is looked up from a register are pretty much the same, the first ones are just the unpure version of the latter
13:02:36 <oklokok> (purity == the nice INSTRUCTION AAA BBB pattern)
13:02:45 <oklokok> (then SET would be the only exception)
13:03:23 <ehird`> i don't like your idea
13:03:28 <ehird`> because it makes setting memory locations harder
13:03:35 <ehird`> you need a SET and then a STORE
13:04:43 <oklokok> then why not make another set of arithmetic instrcutions as well that take memory slots as params?
13:05:01 <ehird`> well because i'm keeping it at 16 instructions :p
13:05:02 <oklokok> so you don't have to LOAD ADD STORE, but just ADD
13:05:13 <oklokok> i'm just saying my way is superior!
13:05:43 <oklokok> i'm really gonna go eat now
13:06:00 <oklokok> i wish i was doing something... doing stuff is so much fun :<
13:06:13 <oklokok> because i'm reading swedish vicabulary.
13:06:14 <ehird`> http://pastie.caboo.se/86585
13:06:19 <ehird`> i need to free up one more instruction
13:07:46 <oklokok> usually you *have* a condition for a jump and any 1100 AAA AAA CCC equals 1101 CCC
13:08:21 <oklokok> (two reasons to remove 1101 that way)
13:08:59 <ehird`> 1111 is where i'm going to put the last added instruction
13:09:02 <ehird`> so "jump" is normally just asm sugar?
13:09:22 <oklokok> hmm... x86 has like 15 jumps...
13:09:35 <ehird`> i'm just thinking that, jumps are really really common
13:09:42 <ehird`> and, if it has to compare something every time..
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13:11:03 <oklokok> if you don't wanna do any preprocessing for the code that is
13:12:08 <ehird`> well yeah it is trivial
13:12:24 <ehird`> since it'll use another instruction internally
13:14:41 <oklokok> you could make a halt address.
13:15:26 <ehird`> yeah but, that's quite a lot of work to halt
13:15:28 <oklokok> that'd be like fast-forwarding to the end of the code
13:15:30 <ehird`> and halting is very common
13:15:49 <ehird`> it's feasable that some code would be that long
13:15:53 <ehird`> though. admittedly. not likely :)
13:16:03 <ehird`> yeah. i'll get rid of halt
13:16:15 <ehird`> what if 11111111 was in the data section
13:16:21 <ehird`> then you'd jump into data
13:16:27 <ehird`> and, feasably, you might want to execute some data
13:16:39 <ehird`> yeah i don't think specializing jump is good
13:16:43 <ehird`> i'll just get rid of unconditional jump
13:16:44 <oklokok> well, you'd basically have one less space for code/data...
13:17:46 <oklokok> 00000000-11111111 ~ 00000000-11111110, so that'd really not be that big a sacrifice... the problem with removing halt is really the fact you may want to use it as a convenience for debugging
13:18:09 <oklokok> that'd make it quite verbose
13:18:38 <ehird`> i'll just get rid of unconditional jump
13:18:42 <ehird`> anyway i've almost finished the new spec
13:18:51 <ehird`> should i combine input and output?
13:19:01 <oklokok> that's the 3rd way i suggested
13:19:13 <ehird`> like, one port for "terminal"
13:20:25 <oklokok> you could have IO AAA BBB PPP, where AAA would be input register, BBB output and PPP port... millions of ways to cincumvent having to have both IN and OUT
13:20:35 <oklokok> (i guess that was a note-to-self more like)
13:20:48 <ehird`> i want both in and out
13:20:55 <ehird`> i am talking about port numbers
13:20:57 <oklokok> aaaaand now i realize what you said.
13:21:21 <oklokok> takes me a while sometimes, no matter how simple a thing people say to me
13:21:39 <oklokok> that sounds like a good way
13:22:21 <oklokok> can't really come up with a good reason though
13:28:48 <ehird`> so if i have terminal as 0
13:32:35 <oklokok> you wanna include those in the spec?
13:32:43 <oklokok> well i guess you wanna assign a few
13:33:02 <oklokok> you could have stderr next
13:33:15 <oklokok> or have it be port 11111111
13:33:27 <oklokok> then you could have a nop port
13:49:35 <oklopol> decided not to eat today, bought 5 liters of juice
13:58:02 <oklopol> that's pretty... impressive :P
13:59:47 <oklokok> you can have a sound port and a kinda raw pixel feed port or something
14:00:08 <ehird`> but.. something more useful..?
14:00:24 <ehird`> that'd be implementation defined ports
14:00:34 <ehird`> i want to define 3-5 ports and then have the rest implementation defined
14:00:42 <ehird`> then you could implement a web browser or something in it :D
14:11:46 <oklokok> stdio, stderr are the only ones i can think of
14:12:04 <oklokok> since you obviously don't want anything that esoteric and my ideas tend to be like that
14:12:05 <ehird`> i don't mean like keybaord input/output
14:12:19 <ehird`> just, any sort of communication at all
14:12:32 <ehird`> stdio mostly == terminal
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14:12:50 <oklokok> well, i was just thinking like standard io
14:13:30 <oklokok> you can have stuff like mouse and keyboard of course, but i don't know at what point it should be implementation defined
14:14:14 <ehird`> you are thinking too limited definition of IO
14:14:36 <ehird`> absolutely ANY operation that could be said to have some sort of link to "input" and "output" 8-bit values, that isn't covered by the instruction set
14:15:00 <oklokok> ah, true... you could have like additional instrcutions taht way
14:15:10 <oklokok> (i can't type that word for some reason)
14:16:29 <ehird`> but... e.g. a computer speaker could be IO
14:16:39 <ehird`> and the value could be some sort of pitch/amplitude combination
14:16:42 <ehird`> you know, the little beeping speaker
14:17:07 <oklokok> you said that's not very necessary
14:18:10 <ehird`> no you didn't say that :|
14:18:25 <oklokok> (oklokok) you can have a sound port
14:18:42 <ehird`> sound port != computer speaker
14:21:10 <oklokok> anyway, yeah you can have one be a sound port
14:21:22 <ehird`> just 2, and then i'll leave the rest undefined
14:21:39 <oklokok> and possible two separate ports for *raw* and *pitch+length* output
14:22:25 <oklokok> making sounds is hell in like every goddamn platform
14:23:25 <ehird`> yeah; how do you do it in ruby?
14:23:46 <oklokok> i have a feeling you know more ruby than me
14:24:00 <oklokok> since i vaguely recall you teaching me the basics of ruby
14:24:18 <ehird`> it was a question to everyone :P
14:26:41 <ehird`> when i say computer speaker
14:26:43 <ehird`> i mean internal speaker
14:27:00 <oklokok> pc beeper is what i've thought it's called
14:27:25 <oklokok> i guess that's just for pc.
14:30:00 <oklokok> the internal speaker is kinda boring
14:31:02 <ehird`> you have clearly never played old games
14:31:11 <ehird`> i've heard complex polyphonic tunes composed with internal speakers
14:31:53 <oklokok> it can't be strictly polyphonic...
14:31:54 <ehird`> with enough tricks you can get some nice lo-fi tunes
14:32:01 <ehird`> but if you alternate between two very short notes
14:32:05 <ehird`> you can get the illusion
14:32:21 <oklokok> yeah, okay you've convinced me
14:32:36 <oklokok> wonder if you could do that with python's beep...
14:33:25 <ehird`> if i add something that controls the screen too
14:33:38 <ehird`> you could create a 99 bottles of beer program with colour graphics and sound :)
14:34:05 <oklokok> i'll make one that synthesizes a guy saying the lyrics.
14:34:19 <ehird`> with an internal speaker?!
14:34:46 <oklokok> depends on how strictly the movement of the cone is defined
14:35:31 <oklokok> so... you could make a program to convert wav -> beeper
14:37:10 <ehird`> do you have ruby installed
14:38:40 <oklokok> and 2.5 i have to do some tricks to get open
14:47:19 <oklokok> i do know how to make the pc beeper sing in python
14:47:42 <oklokok> http://vjn.fi/s/beepiano.py
14:48:03 <ehird`> wow, a three letter domain name
14:48:08 <ehird`> not many of those around
14:48:09 <oklokok> i made that a million years ago
14:48:20 <oklokok> there's a website with a link to each of them
14:48:31 <oklokok> that's not exactly my page
14:48:40 <oklokok> it's our group's... vjn's page
14:49:27 <oklokok> the domain was easy to get, we were just lazy enough to get a web hotel system so it costed like hell
14:49:41 <oklokok> but it's fun wasting money
14:51:13 <oklokok> well okay it's my page in that most of the content is made by me
14:51:55 <oklokok> web hotel == a public service for a server to maintain that
14:52:22 <ehird`> some of the best pc speaker music is in old lucasarts graphical adventure games
14:52:27 <ehird`> start them with the pc speaker command line option
14:53:06 <oklokok> i don't feel like dl'ing any games now, you can record some for me and upload
15:00:05 <oklokok> are you actually gonna do that btw, because waiting for you to upload it is actually now my excuse for doing nothing at all
15:00:14 <oklokok> well, i'm actually picking at my toes
15:00:28 <oklokok> i'm gonna go... do some cleaning now ->
15:01:52 <ehird`> i'm just finding my copy of the game
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15:13:55 <ehird`> but it's recorded at insanely low volume
15:14:09 <ehird`> it can be amplified without much qualityloss
15:14:16 <oklokok> if it's square, you can easily amplify
15:14:26 <oklokok> it's prolly sine... but same thing
15:15:06 <ehird`> hmm not a good recording
15:15:27 <ehird`> i'll find a recording elsewhere
15:15:52 <oklokok> i don't really care about the quality that much
15:17:00 <ehird`> yeah but it skips parts
15:18:39 <ehird`> it skips parts when recording
15:18:42 <ehird`> for no apparent reason
15:19:00 <ehird`> (case in point of how quiet this recording is: i can amplify 36db and it doesn't even go to halfway full amplitude)
15:19:44 <ehird`> i think this might be ok
15:19:50 <ehird`> but be warned that the real thing sounds far more like music
15:19:52 <ehird`> and less like random bleeps
15:20:38 <ehird`> note that there's periods of silence in between the three tunes
15:20:43 <ehird`> because i had to, you know, play the game up to that point
15:23:43 <ehird`> http://rapidshare.com/files/48135293/monkeyisland.mp3.html
15:23:49 <ehird`> too lazy to upload it to a real host
15:27:05 <oklokok> i think that sounds great :)
15:27:15 <oklokok> but i don't think that's anything near what it should sound
15:28:47 <ehird`> yeah it skips in random places
15:29:13 <ehird`> so, that's an example of pc speaker polyphony
15:29:23 <oklokok> hmm.. either it skips all the time or i don't think many people would enjoy listening to that
15:29:30 <ehird`> it does skip all the time
15:29:42 <ehird`> seriously; download the game (monkey island 2) and run "monkey2 i" sometime
15:29:47 <ehird`> it sounds nothing like tha trecording :p
15:30:18 <ehird`> now i need to work out a consistant way to pack computer speaker values
15:30:53 <ehird`> bear in mind that "2000, 100" in the windows library only produces a very short beep
15:30:56 <ehird`> we need to store... big values.
15:31:58 <ehird`> the register value could be a memory address
15:32:05 <ehird`> and then like 5 places after that is the values
15:32:47 <ehird`> whoa, a program that plays wavs to the pc speaker
15:34:25 <oklokok> yeah, it's prolly pretty easy to do, i just don't know the basics of the beeper
15:36:23 <ehird`> this driver isn't xp-confirmed-compatible :s
15:36:33 * ehird` is hopefully not suiciderating computer
15:37:53 <ehird`> how do you suggest we lay out the argument?
15:39:19 <ehird`> i think a 16-bit integer for both tone+amp will be enough
15:39:23 <ehird`> so, four slots of memory
15:39:28 <ehird`> so should the value be the first slot of memory's address?
15:41:46 <oklokok> like 256 for duration and 256 for pitch
15:43:02 <oklokok> if you actually make tones (implicit 440*(2**(n/12)) conversion before output), composing will be easier and 256 will be enough
15:43:18 <oklokok> but ppl might find that a bit hmm... what's the word
15:44:15 <ehird`> two 16-bit unsigned integers is just 4 slots of memory anyway
15:44:32 <ehird`> and goes beyond what most computer speakers can produce as far as tone goes, and into insane lengths of tones as length goes
15:45:11 <oklokok> 16 bits will be enough if you do frequency pitch
15:45:32 <oklokok> also, i was supposed to leave an hour ago
15:46:05 <ehird`> its not frequency pitch
15:46:11 <ehird`> its SOME-WEIRD-NUMBER length
15:46:43 <oklokok> i'm not talking about length
15:48:38 <ehird`> speaking of pc speakers, and i posted the monkey island 2 theme earlier, here's the monkey island 1 theme tune played live: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYZXNVHVfhc it's awesome
15:48:45 <oklokok> it's really never useful having tone output by frequency
15:48:53 <ehird`> it melds tons of different parts
15:49:03 <ehird`> oklokok: i'm going based on win32's Beep function
15:54:24 <oklokok> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjvD3C_nvBk&mode=related&search= <<< original version?
15:55:00 <oklokok> you have to do some serious hacking if that's actually done with a monophonic output
15:56:47 <oklokok> i know everything can be done with a monophonic output since that's all computers have, but still
15:57:11 <oklokok> you'd have to change note like 100 times a second
15:57:18 <oklokok> and still i think it'd sound wrong
15:57:26 <oklokok> so you'd have to add up the sines
15:57:39 <oklokok> and efficiently just emulate a raw output using the beeper
15:57:50 <oklokok> which is like 100 times harder than just making the output
16:05:34 <ehird`> that is not the original
16:05:39 <ehird`> i showed you monkey island 2
16:05:50 <ehird`> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lTz2nkPNXA
16:06:09 <ehird`> that's the adlib version, so, not the best
16:06:17 <ehird`> my recording starts with the monkeys dancing
16:06:26 <ehird`> but anyway, my recording skipped every 2 seconds
16:06:29 <ehird`> so of course it sounded nothing like that
16:08:11 <ehird`> however mine also includes largo's theme
16:08:18 <ehird`> and omits the Scabb Island theme
16:08:34 <ehird`> and also has the chapter change theme
16:11:11 <ehird`> i seem to remember this scene was the best-composed for the pc speaker: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbTTyacCO5c
16:11:22 <ehird`> there's no recordings of it on the speaker though and i'm not playing half way through the game to get there
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16:15:24 <oklokok> i'll be going now, cul! ->
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18:21:35 <lament> 3.1489797239479878971073891723816378969086359782649786301276382935496123897
18:25:02 <lament> ehird`: you'll have to remove that note from the topic when you don't need it, nobody else is gonna do it
18:25:13 <ehird`> i still need it right now :p
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19:45:11 <ihope> I hear the sound of either "All I Know" or an ice cream truck playing Popeye.
19:47:38 <ehird`> ihope: i made that instruction set TC, i think
19:48:57 <ehird`> http://pastie.caboo.se/86663
19:49:07 <ehird`> i need to define some standard ports though
19:49:16 <ehird`> i think i'll define Terminal and PC speaker and leave the rest implementation-defined
19:49:27 <oklokok> i really don't like you calling it tc :\
19:49:36 <ehird`> oklokok: please read http://pastie.caboo.se/86663
19:49:39 <ehird`> it >is< turing complete
19:49:52 <ehird`> the current spec should be TC
19:50:02 <ehird`> if you don't believe me... then i guess i'll write brainfuck rewriting rules for it
19:50:59 <ihope_> ehird`: oh, and couldn't you use MemoServ or something for your notes-to-self?
19:51:05 <oklokok> so you can make a list of 1000000000 entries in it?
19:51:20 <ehird`> oklokok: if you had more than 8-bit addresses, yes
19:51:45 <ehird`> (In this aspect, even C isn't turing complete. Pointers have maximum values.)
19:51:47 <oklokok> you think that's directly extendable to infinite size registers?
19:52:08 <ehird`> (And yes, I know C isn't TC. I think if mine is on the same computational level of C, nobody will ever need anything more :))
19:52:11 <oklokok> ehird`: this is a common discussion, this one about C, but no, pointers do not have to be finite size.
19:52:27 <oklokok> it is if pointers are infinite.
19:52:35 <oklokok> the size of a pointer is not defined
19:52:50 <ehird`> or at least, it can't in C89#
19:53:24 <oklokok> ehird`: then i've been lied to, i haven't read the spec of c, since i don't like the lang that much anymore
19:53:24 <ihope_> Does that spec explicitly state that there must be a biggest pointer?
19:53:51 <ehird`> ihope_: iirc, it defines pointers pretty precisely
19:54:22 <oklokok> defining precisely != defining a maximum size
19:55:06 <oklokok> anyway, that isn't tc then, and you *did not* change it :\
19:55:14 <ehird`> http://pastie.caboo.se/86663
19:55:34 <ehird`> it may be non-TC, but if so it's only because it has the same restriction as C89
19:55:44 <ehird`> and, frankly, i'm not bothered. nobody stops using C because it isn't TC.
19:56:02 <oklokok> can you quote me the part making C pointers finite?
19:56:55 <ehird`> you have to pay to get the spec
19:57:04 <oklokok> because iirc someone on this channel said nothing there says it
19:57:29 <oklokok> i do not have it, i'd've checked that like 4 times if i had it :P
19:57:29 <olsner> oklokok: C types are guaranteed to have a size in bytes defined at compile-time
19:58:40 <olsner> and bytes are afaik defined to be 8-bit quantities...
19:59:22 <oklokok> i mean, i think they have a size defined in chunks, but those need not necessarily be bytes
19:59:33 <oklokok> just whatever is used for memory slots
20:00:10 <oklokok> anyway, i haven't read the spec, someone here just said something about something and i *vaguely recall*, so...
20:00:53 <ehird`> defined size at compile-time == you can't have an infinite size
20:00:59 <ehird`> == c is not turing complete
20:01:46 <olsner> well, PC:s aren't turing complete either due to the finite size of memory
20:02:11 <oklokok> pc's aren't, C could still be
20:02:48 <oklokok> defined size in bytes, yes, but if the byte is a bignum, it's tc.
20:06:53 <ehird`> sizeof(X) must return a value that makes sense
20:06:58 <ehird`> and it must be >right<
20:07:15 <ehird`> thus, C is not turing complete
20:07:23 <olsner> ehird`: sizeof(char) could be sizeof(pointer-to-bignum)
20:07:38 <ehird`> olsner: Sure.. So what?
20:07:47 <ehird`> It'd be the same size as a pointer to a bignum.
20:08:27 <olsner> I mean, sizeof(void *) would be composed of bignums in such a way as to have constant size (but use hidden extra data to enable unbounded values)
20:08:55 <olsner> thus, sizeof's would be bounded, but the values contained unbounded
20:09:17 <ehird`> So given a turing-complete C implementation, sizeof(void *) == ?
20:09:34 <olsner> could be just 1, since a byte is a bignum
20:10:39 <ehird`> if its a bignum then its size is not 1
20:10:53 <ehird`> also bytes are defined to be 8 bits
20:10:57 <ehird`> so a byte cannot be a bignum
20:11:50 <ihope_> ehird`: the spec defines a byte as 8 bits, and that sizeof() returns a number of bytes?
20:12:25 <olsner> there is contention as to whether that byte size actually is mandated by the standard ;-)
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20:13:48 <ehird`> sizeof() must return a number of bytes
20:13:53 <ehird`> and sizeof(void *) is no exception
20:13:57 <ehird`> thus pointer addresses are limited
20:14:01 <ehird`> thus C is not turing complete
20:16:58 <ehird`> so C is only as powerful as my machine spec there
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20:17:05 <ehird`> so you can't complain about my machine not being tc! :p
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20:20:41 <ihope_> olsner: there's contention as to... wha?
20:21:28 <olsner> whether the size of a byte is defined by the C standard to be exactly 8 bits
20:22:06 <ihope_> ...how does it manage to not be clear on that?
20:23:10 <olsner> it probably is clear on that... you just have to read that part of the standard ;-)
20:24:08 <ehird`> so, have we all agreed that yelling at my machine for not being "really" tc is pointless :)
20:26:25 <olsner> I think the discussion did have the potential to bring forth a deeper understanding of C's turing in/completeness
20:26:37 <ihope_> ehird`: do you still need that thing in the topic?
20:26:45 -!- ehird` has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric.
20:27:29 <ehird`> ok, now the machine arch needs a name
20:27:34 <ehird`> then i'll write some simple programs and an implementation
20:28:38 <ihope_> Yet Another Esoteric Language/Platform?
20:28:51 <ehird`> it isn't really that esoteric, though, is it?
20:28:54 <ehird`> well, would you call it esoteric?
20:28:59 <ehird`> it's just a minimal machine language is it not?
20:29:17 <ehird`> well, what would make it esoteric?
20:29:25 <ehird`> yaml is a data format :)
20:30:36 <ihope_> If it's not made with usability and ease of implementation in mind, it's esoteric :-)
20:30:39 <olsner> MiniMaL (MINImal MAchine Language) :P
20:30:53 <ihope_> What does MiniMAX stand for?
20:31:02 <ehird`> it is designed with usability in mind :)
20:31:04 <olsner> but anything above 1 instruction isn't really minimal anymore
20:31:18 <ehird`> the whole point was to be tiny, but usable if you know some sort of asm
20:31:32 <ehird`> and i can't see how it would be hard to implement
20:31:41 <ihope_> Well, why did you want it to be tiny?
20:32:02 <ehird`> because yesterday RodgerTheGreat was talking about a turing-complete network protocol
20:32:09 <ehird`> and i remarked that the packet format would have to be incredibly small
20:32:20 <ehird`> and that you could probably get away with 4-bit opcodes
20:32:23 <ehird`> giving you 16 commands
20:32:27 <ihope_> Sounds esoteric to me.
20:32:30 <ehird`> i took that idea with me
20:32:36 <ehird`> and made a tiny machine language that was still usable
20:32:43 <ehird`> it doesn't look really esoteric to me but maybe it does to you?
20:33:03 <ihope_> I guess tininess is... um...
20:33:08 <ihope_> A useful thing to strive for.
20:33:20 <ihope_> Thus making it not an esoteric feature.
20:33:36 <ehird`> its tinyness really has no use
20:33:55 <ehird`> i just wondered how small i could make an architechture while still having it relatively easy-to-use
20:34:07 <olsner> plus, tininess isn't essential for esotericism
20:34:14 <ihope_> Sounds esoteric again, then.
20:34:24 <SimonRC> not only did they close the wormhole that was keeping the Ori's ships out, but in destroying the Ori they removed most of the Ancients' motivation to help them!
20:34:46 <ehird`> i might call it MiniMaL
20:34:50 <ehird`> I might call it Yael (no acronym)
20:34:56 <ihope_> Though are you sure MiniMAX or BCT doesn't sort of win?
20:35:43 <ehird`> bitwise cyclic tag -- easy to use? are you KIDDING?
20:35:57 <ihope_> I dunno. You might need to spend some time learning it, but after that...
20:36:02 <olsner> so, by winning the fight they lost their allies?
20:36:14 <ehird`> whereas here if you know something about low-level programming you can pick it up immediatly
20:37:50 <ehird`> MiniMAX is hardly easy to use
20:38:05 <SimonRC> don't forget the various SJM architectures
20:38:32 <SimonRC> one uses CPP and a library of macros to make it quite usable
20:38:59 <SimonRC> plus, SJMs always have the right O()
20:39:10 <ehird`> name time: MiniMaL or Yael?
20:39:50 <SimonRC> (SJM = subtract and jump if negative)
20:40:04 <SimonRC> Yet Another Esoteric Language?
20:40:05 <ihope_> Like a circle of grass ten feet across with forest all around.
20:40:12 <ihope_> SimonRC: originally, I think.
20:40:40 <ihope_> I suggested YAEL, standing for that; he pondered Yael, supposedly not standing for anything at all.
20:40:40 <olsner> SimonRC: "the right O()"?
20:40:56 <ihope_> I was going to suggest "subtract and branch unless positive".
20:41:25 <SimonRC> An O(n) aalgorithm on normal architectures is O(n) in an SJM architecture, unlike (e.g.) Brainfuck
20:41:32 <ihope_> Is subtract-and-branch-unless-positive nicely isomorphic to subtract-and-jump-if-negative?
20:41:47 <ehird`> it can be Yet Another Esoteric Language if you think it should stand for that
20:41:51 <ehird`> but Yael is its official name :)
20:44:02 <ehird`> it's on pastie, but i'm adding a bit to it and putting it on the wiki now
20:44:10 <ihope_> http://pastie.caboo.se/86663
20:46:39 <ehird`> ok: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Yael
20:47:17 <ehird`> an infinite loop is remarkably short :) "1100000000000"
20:47:26 <ehird`> it would be shorter if i still had an unconditional jump
20:47:36 <ehird`> ihope_: and that in binary? :)
20:47:51 <ehird`> if i had an unconditional jump it would be "<jmp>000"
20:47:55 <ihope_> Both of them could be expressed as 0, but that would be a weird coding.
20:47:57 <ehird`> assuming jump is 1111, "1111000"
20:48:27 <ehird`> and "1111000" in a file is pretty much the shortest you're gonna get unless you have a language called Infinity Loop :P
20:49:37 * ehird` is writing hello world in it
20:53:59 <ehird`> spec updated with infinite loop and change to get-memory command
20:55:53 <ehird`> wow, without mnemonics this hurts my brain :)
20:57:11 <olsner> an interesting challenge would be to make the program speak "Hello world" through the speaker :P
20:57:14 <ehird`> the basic principle is "x = 0; while (x < 14) out(0, end_of_code + x); halt();Hello, world!"
20:57:28 <ehird`> but in practice its a lot harder.
20:57:41 <olsner> 256 bytes of data + code makes that really really hard unfortunately
20:58:11 <ehird`> not 256 bytes of data + code
20:58:21 <ehird`> 256 bytes is the POINTER size
20:58:48 <olsner> oh, so the code size is unlimited, but only the first 256 bytes are read/writable?
20:58:51 <ehird`> with that definition, code+data max size is 65536
20:59:12 <ehird`> but that >should< be enough to code hello world
20:59:16 <ehird`> if it isn't i'll update the spec
20:59:23 <ehird`> the instructions are small enough
20:59:34 <oklokok> (ihope_) I dunno. You might need to spend some time learning it, but after that... <<< i rather doubt a human could learn to write *anything* in bct
20:59:44 <olsner> I'm talking text-to-speech (or a simple vocal model) hello world
21:00:08 <ehird`> computer speaker is hard to make speak in the first place, haha :p
21:01:29 <olsner> but the spec doesn't say that the instruction pointer is limited to 0..255, so I guess you can get quite far with frivolous code generation ;-) i.e. generate an N-megbyte program that explicitly loads immmediate data into registers and never jumps
21:01:37 <ihope_> oklokok: {{x1|b=b|i=i}}
21:03:01 <oklokok> hmm... bct consists entirely of 1's and 0's, so i have a feeling that's some sort of abstraction i don't get?
21:03:16 <ihope_> oklokok: Wiki Cyclic Tag syntax.
21:03:42 <oklokok> well it wasn't exactly "something in bct" then
21:03:49 <oklokok> but i don't know wiki cyclic tag
21:04:09 <ihope_> In BCT, program 11 starting with string 11
21:04:16 <ihope_> (Actually, program 1111.)
21:05:14 <ehird`> http://pastie.caboo.se/86687 this is the theory of the hello world program
21:05:21 <ehird`> i just have to work out the value of halt/mainloop_start :)
21:05:24 <ehird`> which can be done in a few seconds
21:09:06 <oklokok> i somehow have a feeling http://esolangs.org/wiki/Wiki_Cyclic_Tag somehow assumes i know what mediawiki software is
21:09:57 <ihope_> MediaWiki is the software behind Esolang, Wikipedia, and Wikia, among other things.
21:10:10 <ehird`> I FINISHED HELLO WORLD
21:10:31 <oklokok> first of all i have no idea how there could be multiple lines
21:10:35 <oklokok> and wtf is an interpreter there
21:10:49 <oklokok> ihope_: i know that, of course
21:11:10 <ihope_> A program seems to go on only one line.
21:11:11 <oklokok> i mean i know it's the base of those
21:11:52 <ihope_> And the interpreter thing at the beginning is sort of like a shebang line.
21:11:55 <oklokok> okay... then i understand, assuming all d, a and b are used simultaneously for each of the data bits in one cycle
21:12:12 <ihope_> d is 0, a is 10, b is 11.
21:12:59 <oklokok> a shebang tells how to interpret what follows
21:13:00 <ihope_> Like how Python files occasionally begin with #!/usr/bin/env python, to denote that /usr/bin/env python is the interpreter.
21:13:13 <oklokok> so what exactly does it do there?
21:13:51 <oklokok> The d, a, and b commands have been described above. The commands repeat in the order they are given forever. There is one special restriction: there must be at least 2 commands (a 1-command program may be simulated by giving the command twice), and the program must maintain at least 2 bits of data in the data queue at all times, or undefined behaviour will result.
21:13:56 <oklokok> i completely skipped that.
21:13:57 <ehird`> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Yael
21:14:01 <ehird`> see Hello world under programs
21:14:06 <ihope_> Well, if you put, say, x1 there, it denotes that Template:x1 is the interpreter.
21:14:09 <ehird`> the "without comments" one is, of course, the most interesting :D
21:14:11 <oklokok> how in the name of fuck can i always skip the important part.
21:14:23 <ehird`> it looks like line noise doesn't it :)
21:14:29 <ehird`> but i think it's nicely compact, for a machine language hello world
21:14:57 <oklokok> ihope_: i have no idea what that means
21:15:10 <oklokok> like... it checks the hd for an interpreter with that name?
21:15:33 <ihope_> It's template transclusion.
21:16:19 <ihope_> {{foo|blah|bleh|blih}} gets replaced with Template:foo with parameters blah, bleh and blih.
21:16:34 <ehird`> hey, anyone know an editor that will accept a binary 0/1 string and write it as binary to a file?
21:16:40 <ehird`> or will i have to write it myself :p
21:17:21 <ehird`> some don't seem to do it properly :p
21:17:29 <oklokok> ihope_: in bct i do not know what parameters are, exactly.
21:17:38 <oklokok> so... i have no idea how foo can have params
21:17:57 <ihope_> oklokok: the parameters the "interpreter" takes are the program and the data string.
21:18:13 <ehird`> xvi32 only does hexadecimal literals
21:18:32 <oklokok> ihope_: i still do not know what it means there
21:18:33 <ihope_> I guess writing one yourself... might not be hard.
21:18:38 <oklokok> you just put a random string there?
21:18:56 <ihope_> oklokok: {{name of the template|program|data string}}
21:19:49 <ihope_> MediaWiki, when given that, passes program and data string to Template:name of the template and displays the result.
21:20:18 <ihope_> I probably should have used more hyphens or something :-P
21:20:18 <oklokok> i see no connection between that and the language described
21:20:35 <ihope_> The language at the "Wiki Cyclic Tag" wiki page?
21:21:45 <ihope_> The example given: {{x1|d=a=b|i=o=i=i}}
21:22:35 <ehird`> someone http://esolangs.org/wiki/Yael#Hello_world
21:22:40 <ehird`> put that binary code into a file
21:22:51 <ehird`> then put Hello, world! in ascii form - those exact characters - after it
21:22:51 <oklokok> the interpreter can be any interpreter that is of mediawiki syntax... and there is a mediawiki syntax program that works as an interpreter for wiki cyclic tag there
21:22:54 <ehird`> and upload it somewhere =P
21:23:00 <oklokok> and the interpreter name has to be the name of that
21:23:22 <ihope_> oklokok: yeah, pretty much, I think.
21:23:38 <oklokok> okay, in theory, that might be nice to tell in the wiki.
21:23:50 <ihope_> ehird`: I'll see what I can do.
21:23:51 <oklokok> well.. i guess you can assume ppl know what mediawiki is
21:24:13 <ihope_> oklokok: ...well, I don't really see what you just said.
21:25:36 <oklokok> i'm just saying the page assumes people understand what mediawiki does
21:25:42 <ihope_> Oh, indeed, it doesn't quite say that that example interpreter should be placed in a wiki page of the appropriate name.
21:25:45 <oklokok> i assumed mediawiki *is* the interpreter.
21:26:30 <oklokok> i don't still know the connection between actual wiki pages and that :P
21:26:56 <oklokok> why does everything assume the reader isn't an idiot.
21:26:57 <ihope_> The code in "MediaWiki Interpreter" is to be placed into a wiki page of the appropriate name.
21:27:23 <oklokok> has someone actually used that?
21:28:05 <ihope_> Hmm, there happens to be some in the sandbox: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Sandbox
21:28:14 <ehird`> "\000\034\004\000\020\0000\020\223!V\207\030\333\233\027\204L\002Hello, world!"
21:28:51 <ehird`> does the mediawiki installation allow arbitary uploads?
21:28:55 <ehird`> like, can i upload a .bin
21:29:11 <ihope_> Er, installation, did you say?
21:29:26 <ihope_> Oh, try it: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Upload
21:29:45 <oklokok> ihope_: what do i do with those if i wanna run them?
21:30:18 <ihope_> oklokok: just stick one in a wiki page.
21:30:28 <ihope_> It'll display as the "next step".
21:31:17 <oklokok> i never actually tried "sticking stuff" on a wiki page... but i see how that'd work
21:31:34 <oklokok> so... you can't actually make the server run a program?
21:32:01 <ihope_> Not the whole way through. Only one step at a time.
21:32:16 <ehird`> okay, wow, this hello world is the smallest ever
21:32:38 <ehird`> i mean, metaphorically
21:32:50 <ehird`> it looks so tiny, in text editors
21:32:57 <ihope_> And by CAT, I mean something else.
21:33:02 <ihope_> oklokok: that's /// :-)
21:33:19 <oklokok> ihope_: i'm not the only one who uses the remanized version of the name :P
21:33:35 <ehird`> ok, yael file extension = ?
21:33:57 <oklokok> ehird`: implementation defined io stuff?
21:34:45 <oklokok> that's nicer than leaving out one of the letters
21:34:50 <ehird`> it's fun to stay at the a dot ymc
21:34:54 <oklokok> ihope's was the best idea though
21:35:02 <oklokok> The d, a, and b commands have been described above. The commands repeat in the order they are given forever. There is one special restriction: there must be at least 2 commands (a 1-command program may be simulated by giving the command twice), and the program must maintain at least 2 bits of data in the data queue at all times, or undefined behaviour will result.
21:37:16 <ehird`> ".ymc" is not a recommended image file format.
21:37:17 <ehird`> Retrieved from "http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Upload"
21:38:50 <ehird`> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Yael Now with hello world binary!
21:39:49 <ehird`> absolutely tiny. seriously.
21:40:21 <ehird`> somebody should write 99 bottles :p
21:40:25 <ehird`> my hello world already has a loop
21:40:31 <ehird`> and shows how to print strings
21:40:34 <ehird`> so it shouldn't be too hard
21:41:22 * ehird` just realised that Yael has 8 registers, not 4
21:41:58 <poiuy_qwert> it would probably be smaller if you null ended the string and just looped till null instead of having a counter
21:42:15 <ehird`> yeah i should probably do that...
21:42:44 <ehird`> alternatively someone else should modify my version to do that because i can't bear to write any more right now because that hello world made me tear out my hair :
21:43:16 <ehird`> my hello world won't work
21:43:20 <ehird`> it jumps to a bit, not a byte
21:43:32 <ehird`> so all jumps really need some padding to one byte :S
21:43:43 <ehird`> but, otherwise you'd run out of addresses to jump to fast
21:44:37 <ehird`> left a note on the hello world section
21:46:06 <poiuy_qwert> i dont understand what you mean, could you explain please?
21:46:20 <ehird`> # Set halt = halting instruction
21:46:20 <ehird`> # Set mainloop_start = start of main loop
21:46:33 <ehird`> those addresses are relative to the start of the program in >bits<
21:46:38 <ehird`> whereas, jumping uses bytes
21:46:46 <ehird`> so, i need to pad out the bits right before where i want to jump so they start on a byte
21:46:54 <ehird`> and update those addresses to reference the byte positions instead
21:47:28 <ehird`> ah maybe i could make jump relative, but still in bits
21:47:42 <ehird`> and have bjmp/fjmp - backwards and forward jump
21:48:10 <ehird`> i can't think of what i would replace though
21:50:31 <poiuy_qwert> also, you used a list on the wiki which says "1. stdout and stdin", but in the hello world you set port to 00000000, not 00000001
21:50:46 <poiuy_qwert> im assuming the code is correct not the list?
21:52:51 <poiuy_qwert> and some commands dont use a multiple of 8 bits?
21:56:51 <ehird`> and commands are variable sized
21:57:50 <ehird`> fixed the list in question
21:57:58 <ehird`> ok how about a challenge
21:58:10 <ehird`> first person to write some code to play a tune in yael wins a prize
21:58:20 <ehird`> but not just hardcoding loads of values into memory
21:58:38 <ehird`> like, if you're going for a slide from one note to another, do it algorithmically
21:58:49 <ehird`> don't just store all the notes in memory.
22:06:45 <ehird`> i take it nobody thinks thats a good idea
22:11:34 <ihope_> Lemme look at the spec.
22:12:12 <ehird`> note that the jumping and memory access and everything is based on BYTES, not bits
22:12:17 <ehird`> so you might have to pad some stuff out with 0s
22:12:32 <ihope_> What's the length given in units of?
22:12:42 <ihope_> And how do you control the starting time?
22:15:31 <ehird`> win32's Beep function? :P
22:15:41 <ehird`> yeah, that sounds like a good benchmkar
22:15:46 <ehird`> win32's Beep function.
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22:28:00 <ehird`> if you can make a little algorithmic tune i'll be impressed :)
22:28:08 <ehird`> i'll make a little asm spec for it, later
22:28:42 <ehird`> like, a regular computer speaker tune
22:28:52 <ehird`> slided up from note A to B three times
22:29:01 <ehird`> then you'd code the sliding up and the three times algorithmically
22:29:09 <ehird`> instead of just hardcoding the sliding notes 3 times
22:29:36 <ihope_> Have some number of voices, each playing at a certain rate.
22:29:51 <ehird`> you can't do that, internal speakers are monophonic
22:30:03 <ehird`> but, yes, that kind of thing
22:30:09 <ehird`> you can do polyphony with it
22:30:17 <ehird`> play extremely short sounds from each one after another
22:30:44 <ehird`> but if you get the length of the sound that you play before switching to the next one right
22:30:48 <ehird`> then you can create the illusion of polyphony
22:30:50 <ihope_> Just what's that mean?
22:31:05 <ehird`> you can only produce one sound at a time
22:31:10 <ehird`> you can't play "dah" and "duh" at the same time
22:31:16 <ehird`> but you can play "dah" and then "duh"
22:31:21 <ihope_> Have some number of voices, each playing at a certain rate.
22:31:29 <ehird`> so if you want more than one voice, you have to quickly play short sounds from each in succession
22:31:37 <ihope_> When a voice is told to play, it looks at the last note played by each other voice, and then plays the lowest note that isn't one of those.
22:31:57 <ehird`> is this a roundabout way of sliding up?
22:32:10 <ehird`> i was thinking more of going in a loop and incrementing a variable then playing that variable as the tone :)
22:32:19 <ihope_> More of an entire music generation thing.
22:32:32 <ehird`> well if you can code that in Yael
22:32:36 <ihope_> Mm, doing that would produce a simple tune :-)
22:33:05 <ehird`> i was meaning as a >segment<
22:33:15 <ehird`> like, if at one point you want to slide up and down three times
22:33:50 <ehird`> ah! i know the perfect song to do
22:33:59 <ehird`> slide from lowest note to highest note, and from highest note to lowest note
22:34:23 <ehird`> if someone does that, i'll give them a medal :p
22:35:05 <ehird`> nevermind repeating 3 times
22:35:14 <ehird`> then you'll have an oscillating music program :)
22:36:10 <oklokok> hmm... i'll make an interpreter for that first unless you do that
22:36:16 <ehird`> i'll write an interpreter
22:36:32 <ehird`> remember you don't just want
22:36:36 <ehird`> (HI length 1) (LO length 1)
22:36:39 <ehird`> since length 1 is far too short
22:36:47 <ehird`> you want (HI length 1) (LO length 1) (HI length 1) (LO length 1)
22:36:53 <ehird`> to keep polyphony but have longer notes
22:37:29 <ehird`> actually i can't be bothered to write an interpreter right now
22:37:33 <ehird`> i'll write a c one later
22:37:36 <ehird`> but i don't have a c compiler on this machine
22:40:13 <ehird`> don't write any programs yet
22:40:17 <ehird`> i want to change the jumping mechanism
22:40:22 <ehird`> i need to lose one instruction
22:41:21 <oklokok> i'm not doing anything yet, really, but perhaps later
22:43:30 <ehird`> which instruction should i lose?
22:44:12 <oklokok> input and output can be hacked together
22:44:32 <oklokok> and xor and or can emulate each other
22:44:47 <oklokok> i don't think you can remove anything nicely
22:44:49 <ehird`> how does xor emulate or?
22:45:22 <oklokok> 2 of them can emulate the third
22:45:59 <ehird`> how does xor emulate or?
22:46:11 <ehird`> i mean, if i have (A xor B) and not (A or B), what is (A or B)?
22:49:48 <SimonRC> xor cannot "fold" things together, I think
22:50:18 <SimonRC> actually, viewed as a SAT problem, xor does not distinguish inputs and outputs!
22:55:10 <ehird`> (A xor (B and true)) is (A or B)
22:56:37 <ehird`> there is surely a way to emulate or with xor
22:57:20 <SimonRC> you can invert three signals with 2 not gates though
22:57:31 <SimonRC> I forget how, but the circuit is rather complicated
23:05:55 <ehird`> nobody has written a tune i see :p
23:06:02 <ehird`> what was that about "insanely simple"
23:06:13 * ehird` continues wondering what instruction to ditch
23:10:02 <ihope_> Maybe 1010 while you're at it.
23:10:12 <ehird`> division and multiplication are useful :(
23:10:24 <ihope_> Isn't... what you want to add useful?
23:10:31 <ehird`> otherwise you can't have a short factorial! everyone knows how important factorials to be :P
23:10:39 <ehird`> and yes... but only slightly...
23:10:43 <ehird`> i mean... you can still do everything now
23:10:47 <ehird`> but i'm making it more elegant
23:10:50 <ihope_> Division helps with factorials?
23:11:06 <ihope_> Then get rid of only division?
23:11:10 <ehird`> jmp ABSOLUTE_BYTES -> bjmp RELATIVE_BITS and fjmp RELATIVE_BITS
23:11:15 <ehird`> and no i like division :(
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23:34:24 <ehird`> for some reason i think i want to try learning base 57
23:34:38 <ihope_> That's silly. Learn base 59 instead.
23:35:14 <ehird`> why. base 57 is cooler
23:35:38 <ihope_> Or you could go base 67, which is also prime.
23:35:56 <ihope_> Or 61, or any of the many other prime numbers...
23:38:56 <ihope_> No, 36 is bad bad bad!
23:38:57 <SimonRC> very composite, yet typable
23:39:06 <ihope_> It's composite composite composite!
23:39:17 <ihope_> Unless you want a composite number, of course.
23:39:19 <SimonRC> digits -> 0123456789abcefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
23:39:33 <ihope_> I think base 31 is nice.
23:39:38 <SimonRC> digits -> 0123456789abcefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ
23:39:52 <SimonRC> mixed-base, like HP money?
23:39:56 <ihope_> Base 61 lets you use every alphanumeric character except "D".
23:40:00 <ehird`> what does pi look like in base 43
23:40:15 <ehird`> i don't have dc, this is the windows box
23:42:43 <ihope_> I'll run up and run it.
23:44:12 <ihope> What's the syntax?
23:44:43 <ehird`> for calculating pi in base 43?
23:44:51 <ehird`> probably P<[";d']43 knowing dc
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23:45:47 <SimonRC> you don't have ssh on that box
23:46:01 <ihope> But I don't know its IP address.
23:46:33 <ehird`> gawd all i want is pi_43 :p
23:49:02 <SimonRC> ihope: ah, you need DNS then... :-)
23:50:10 <ihope> "The symbol & (called an ampersand) is sometimes placed in front of a number to show that it is a hexadecimal number." http://www.cleavebooks.co.uk/scol/calnumba.htm
23:50:28 <ehird`> that's very interesting and all, but-
23:50:34 <ihope> Cool, a convention I've never heard of rather than the one that seems ubiquitous.
23:50:49 <ihope> Heck, you do it :-P
23:51:06 <ihope> P<[";d"]43 gives a large number of error messages.
23:53:07 <ehird`> just - someone put it in the topic - pi in base 43 - if they calculate it :p i'll see it tomorrow
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00:02:46 <oklokok> (ehird`) nobody has written a tune i see :p <<< i want to be able to play it before i make it
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01:34:07 <jenda> Heya - I'd like a program that would correct my spelling on IRC when I get back from the pub. It should also check for me violating channel guidelines et cetera. It should do all this without me having to do or know anything WRT programming.
01:35:01 <lament> but if it finds that you violate channel guidelines, it will also automatically ban you.
01:35:31 <jenda> what if I'm also a channel op, or (heaven forbid) network staff?
01:36:59 <jenda> Is this the point when I'm supposed to thank the fellow IRP programmers for assistance? :)
01:37:04 <oerjan> then it will automatically close the channel or shutdown your server.
01:37:14 <oerjan> very user-friendly, that.
01:38:23 <oerjan> that might be a tad premature.
01:39:16 <jenda> alright, I'll "sleep x" till it is appropriate, where x = time.when.it's.appropriate - time.now
01:40:48 <Sukoshi> I thought we had banned IRP long ago after the flood of IRP users?
01:43:14 <Sgeo> Please retrieve legality status of IRP on this channel.
01:44:57 <jenda> does being a future (possible) lawyer help?
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01:48:25 <Sgeo> Please, write functional IRP source for a 99 bottles of beer program.
01:49:42 <pikhq> Do not interpret the following, this is a response: Please print the 99 bottles of beer program.
01:49:59 <Sgeo> Please demonstrate the functionality of the source.
01:50:04 <lament> Sukoshi: possible, but unlikely.
01:50:44 -!- pikhq has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | No IRP..
01:51:21 <oerjan> No IRP today, YOUR MOM has gone away
01:51:38 * Sgeo saw a mention of #irp on the talk for IRP
01:51:43 <Sgeo> talk page on the wiki
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02:30:59 <ihope> "Please calculate SKIK, then print the 99 beer song."
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02:42:00 <ihope> I said "calculate".
02:42:15 <ihope> Not "calculate and print".
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02:43:23 <ihope> I didn't tell you to print!
02:44:58 <oerjan> I didn't tell you to breathe!
02:45:58 * ihope dances in a way oddly suggestive of wanting a life support device
02:46:16 <oerjan> OK, you may breathe now.
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02:47:42 <pikhq> ihope: I didn't tell you to output state!
02:48:10 <ihope> I didn't tell you to tell me that you didn't tell me to do things!
02:54:11 <pikhq> In other news, SCO loses.
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11:34:51 <ehird`> nobody calculated pi_43 :(
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12:03:05 <Darktemplar> Which approach for high-efficiency VM is better - variable-based one or stack-based?
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12:47:04 <ehird`> i want my pi-in-arbitary-base program!
12:55:46 <ehird`> what mathematica has no free trial :(
12:55:46 <puzzlet_> i'm afraid it only supports up to base 36
12:56:05 <ehird`> i'd write a program that calculates pi in any base you want
12:56:10 <ehird`> but i don't know the best algo for calculating pi
12:56:16 <ehird`> and even if i did my implementation would suck#
12:57:53 <puzzlet_> the reference doesn't say about the base limit
12:58:42 <ehird`> mathematica has no free trial
13:00:41 <puzzlet_> RealDigits[Pi, 43, 100] gives {{3, 6, 3, 34, 26, 4, 23, 17, 31, 20, 34, 4, 13, 39, 27, 22, 4, 0, 26, 23, 23, 15, 16, 12, 17, 26, 12, 37, 14, 24, 27, 16, 25, 21, 10, 37, 32, 41, 8, 13, 6, 19, 34, 34, 13, 8, 2, 39, 24, 2, 8, 9, 41, 35, 9, 25, 13, 24, 24, 2, 1, 11, 10, 3, 4, 38, 36, 19, 21, 3, 2, 25, 1, 32, 19, 6, 9, 17, 10, 23, 5, 26, 18, 32, 15, 0, 19, 20, 29, 16, 5, 12, 28, 37, 24, 28, 14, 6, 19, 29}, 1}
13:01:20 <ehird`> that's a bit silly - doesn't it use 0-9A-Za-whatever?
13:01:51 <ehird`> (on another note, Ramanujan's formula appears to require me to calculate sqrt(2)... so that's >two< trancendental numbers i have to conquer)
13:02:48 <puzzlet_> Theres BaseForm[] to do that, but it requires base to be <= 36
13:04:57 <ehird`> i guess i'll just convert it with a program
13:07:36 <ehird`> 3.63YQ4NHVKY4DdRM40QNNFGCHQCbEORGPLAbWf8D6JYYD82dO
13:07:36 <ehird`> 289fZ9PDOO21BA34caJL32P1WJ69HAN5QIWF0JKTG5CSbOSE6J2
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15:44:43 <test> no unicode in usernames
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15:53:37 <SimonRC> ehird`: so, how are the cadaeic endevours progressing?
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15:53:55 <ehird`> SimonRC: i calculated pi in base 43 to 100 places
15:53:59 <ehird`> doesn't look too elegant
15:54:20 <ehird`> i pasted it earlier today
15:54:22 <ehird`> i'll find it in my logs
15:54:47 <ehird`> Aug 11 13:14:40 <ehird`>3.63YQ4NHVKY4DdRM40QNNFGCHQCbEORGPLAbWf8D6JYYD82dO
15:54:47 <ehird`> Aug 11 13:14:40 <ehird`>289fZ9PDOO21BA34caJL32P1WJ69HAN5QIWF0JKTG5CSbOSE6J2
15:55:04 <ehird`> using 0-9A-Za-<t, i think>
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16:27:58 <ihope> There's a letter for each of us!
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17:06:37 <SimonRC> ehird`: hey! you know what cadaeic means?
17:08:42 <ehird`> so in your context, "relating to pi"
17:12:07 <ehird`> hooray, i got something right for a change
17:25:17 <oklokok> hmm... is there always a base in which pi's n first decimals are the same?
17:26:09 <SimonRC> you must pick a base sufficientally close to pi
17:27:17 <oklokok> infinity always goes over my head... can't say whether that's trivially true or trivially false
17:28:54 <ehird`> if i was going to JFGI, i'd say "no", then google it, then say "ah yes, X"
17:29:22 <ehird`> oklokok: no, trivially false
17:31:26 <oklokok> but trivially, it's trivially something.
17:31:39 <ehird`> trivially means nothing anyway
17:33:26 <oklokok> you aren't supposed to put fans on the computer screen?
17:33:41 <oklokok> the screen isn't looking that helthy right now...
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17:43:21 <ehird`> i was a buggy irp interpreter and interpreted hi everybody as "fuck you"
17:43:25 <ehird`> because it is non-standard code
17:43:32 <ehird`> so i rewrote and optimized it multiple steps
17:43:42 <ehird`> arriving eventually at the single character "&" as a portable, ambigious way to say hello to everyone
17:44:05 <SimonRC> unambigious would be better
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18:51:25 <ehird`> logically reasoning that's: tmp = x; x += 1; x += 1; x = x + tmp;
18:51:34 <sp3tt> good obfuscation technique
18:51:37 <ehird`> in practice it's probably more simple and less intuitional
18:52:07 <sp3tt> ++x increases x by 1 and returns x, right?
18:52:49 <sp3tt> x+ (x+1)++ = x+x+2 = 2x+2
19:10:21 <lament> i don't think "logical reasoning" applies to C much.
19:11:00 <SimonRC> (x+1)++ doesn't work; (x+1) isn't an lvalue
19:11:37 <SimonRC> and a statement that preincrements x, postincrements it, *and* assigns to it is definitely undefined
19:12:23 * pikhq wonders how a C parser would blow up on that
19:13:28 <lament> after programming haskell for a while, even "x=x+1" is creepy enough
19:13:59 <SimonRC> lament: depends on which instance of Num is involved
19:14:04 <SimonRC> on some instances it is defined
19:14:07 <lament> that could only mean "x equals infinity"
19:14:31 <lament> but more likely, haskell would simply crash trying to evaluate that.
19:14:34 <SimonRC> pikhq: the parsed shouldn't have a problem; it's the compiling bit that has a problem
19:15:15 <SimonRC> lament: if you define an "instance Num [()]" (i.e. unary) you could do it.
19:16:03 <lament> it doesn't matter what type it is, as long as addition is defined not to do anything
19:16:24 <lament> which is... not the usual meaning of addition
19:18:44 <sp3tt> SimonRC: yeah, I know, it was to make things clearer.
19:18:56 <sp3tt> why don't you try compiling it? :D
19:20:48 <lament> becauuse it won't prove anything
19:21:02 <lament> it doesn't really matter what an individual compiler will do with it
20:37:34 <oklopol> if you wanna obfuscate with ++ increments, use java
20:37:55 <oklopol> does D define evaluation order?
20:38:09 <oklopol> GregorR: your time to shine!
20:39:22 <GregorR> There was a newsgroup thread on it.
20:39:37 <oklopol> i'm not sure whether that's good, bad or neutral really
20:39:43 <GregorR> But Walters stance was that if he specified it, making a D->C compiler would be a HUGE PITA and nobody would do it right :)
20:47:06 <oklopol> making a D->C compiler might be kinda hard if i recall correctly and D has functional language stuff
20:47:33 <oklopol> i don't really remember what it has now but i have a feeling it's gor first class functions
20:47:38 <ehird`> d uses lots of crap that doesn't fit into c
20:50:59 <ehird`> *g0e0e0t00e0t0etatataitetet
20:51:14 <ehird`> C has first class functions too
20:51:19 <ehird`> they're called function pointers. :p
20:52:19 <ehird`> however D has, well, classes, for one, and templates.
20:52:32 <ehird`> and also really weird things like variadic functions using templates
20:52:54 <ehird`> int func(T ...)(int arg1, int arg2, T args) { args is a list of arguments of any type } if i remember correctly
20:53:41 <ehird`> i actually really like D
20:53:43 <oklopol> that would be almost impossible to C-ify efficiently
20:53:53 <ehird`> http://digitalmars.com/d/ look around; you might find currying
20:53:54 <oklopol> i like it too, even though i don't know it.
20:54:32 <oklopol> because i like C/C++, but C lacks stuff and in C++ a lot of stuff is done quite badly
20:54:36 <ehird`> i don't like it for many purposes, but:
20:54:45 <ehird`> if you need a compiled language,
20:54:55 <ehird`> and you don't need the speed and control of C
20:55:04 <ehird`> and you want something more conventional than a functional language
20:55:13 <ehird`> but that's a pretty narrow usage-case
20:57:51 <lament> you just listed a bunch of functional-language features D has
20:58:06 <lament> if you like functional features so much, perhaps you do want a functional language :)
20:58:49 <ehird`> d does have a usage-case
20:58:52 <ehird`> i just don't know what it is! :)
21:06:04 <ihope> Anybody know of some fancy online things that convert a number into how to say it?
21:06:19 <ihope> 1523852 into "1 million 523 thousand 852", for example.
21:06:43 <ihope> Or "one million five hundred twenty-three thousand eight hundred fifty-two", even.
21:06:55 <ihope> The number in question is 256! + 4^256.
21:07:54 <oklokok> but i would make a new one faster than find it
21:08:36 <ihope> Mm, that number has 507 digits, I think.
21:14:31 <oklokok> ah, you wanna know what the big numbers are
21:14:43 <oklokok> american or british standard?
21:14:50 <oklokok> (not that i remember which is which...)
21:14:56 <oklokok> (american is the stupid one?)
21:15:10 <ihope> Cool. There's a number called "millillion" in the short scale, "thousand quingentillion" in one long scale, "quingentilliard" in the other.
21:15:25 <ihope> 1,000,000,000 is a billion in the short, a thousand million or a milliard in the other.
21:16:43 <oklokok> if they're the same as in finnish, million, billion, trillion, quadrillion, quintillion, <sex>tillion, septillion, octillion... then i don't rememebr
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22:19:24 <ehird`> the british billion is obviously correct!
22:19:32 <ehird`> it uses the same progression as the previous terms!
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22:39:12 <SimonRC> oklokok: note that gcc C has closures, of all things
22:39:37 <SimonRC> how the fuck did you type that fast?
22:39:45 <oklokok> but... i don't trust them...
22:40:31 <SimonRC> they aren't exactly portable
22:40:38 <ehird`> if it's fast typing you want
22:40:43 <ehird`> but i think it'd be a bit of a pain
22:40:46 <ehird`> since i can type faster than i think
22:40:52 <ehird`> so a lot of gobbledegook would come out
22:41:10 <oklokok> SimonRC: that wasn't necessarily fast typing but just lag stacking the messages up...
22:41:12 <ehird`> what can I say, i spend too long on the computer :p
22:41:23 <ehird`> oklokok: no, those messages happened at around that rate
22:41:25 <SimonRC> you were doing 180 w/min at one point
22:41:29 <oklokok> ehird`: how fast do you type?
22:41:35 <SimonRC> I can't type fast reliably
22:41:44 <ehird`> oklokok: well - when trying to be fast?
22:41:45 <oklokok> i don't remember my speed now
22:41:52 <ehird`> i don't know. fast - but with a few errors, i'd imagine
22:41:59 <oklokok> i'm faster than normal ppl but i don't know how fast
22:42:00 <ehird`> generally i don't bother typing that fast :p
22:42:11 <ehird`> but, still faster compared to most non-geeks :p
22:42:16 <oklokok> i mean, i may lose to geeks.
22:42:31 <oklokok> i do own everyone @ #tietovisa
22:42:33 <ehird`> you are a geek, by definition
22:42:40 <oklokok> but those guys are normal ppl of course.
22:42:40 <SimonRC> I keep missing the keys and hitting two at once
22:42:47 <oklokok> so... i own them at everything, naturally
22:43:04 <ehird`> hmm, someone give me two sentences or something and i'll try and type them fast
22:43:11 <SimonRC> OTOH, I know what all the punctuation does
22:43:44 <GregorR> 1. a circus performer who bites the heads off of living chickens or other fowl
22:43:44 <GregorR> 2. an IRC user on the channel #esoteric on the FreeNode IRC network
22:44:00 <oklokok> a circus performer who bites the heads off of living chichens or other fowls
22:44:13 <ehird`> GregorR: are those my two sentences? :p
22:44:27 <oklokok> also, i left a typo there.
22:44:52 <oklokok> just haven't ever used the word, so i just know it in theory :)
22:45:06 <oklokok> i sometimes slip the wrong one in a situation like that
22:45:14 <oklokok> ...i mean when i haven't used it that much
22:45:37 <ehird`> a circus performer who bites the heads off of living chickens or other fowl
22:45:45 <ehird`> that was quite slow. not the easiest sentence to type :p long too
22:46:00 <sp3tt> do you use dvorak?
22:46:10 <ehird`> i've tried learning dvorak
22:46:30 <ehird`> gave up in frustration ("damnit; i can't code, i can't talk to people, all i can do is practice typing. i can't live like this!")
22:46:37 <ehird`> that's happened 3 times or so =p
22:46:41 <ehird`> one day i'll fully learn it
22:46:57 <sp3tt> It took me ~2 weeks
22:47:28 <ehird`> yes; not being able to use anything that requires a keyboard for two weeks would put me in a semi-comatose state
22:49:38 <oklokok> ehird`: you are roughly 2 times faster than me in typing, unless i can noobishly look at my fingers
22:50:16 <ehird`> I never really settled on a typing style
22:50:23 <ehird`> so how I type is horridly warped
22:50:38 <oklokok> i constantly change where i keep my hands
22:50:48 <oklokok> and i turn them very weirdly
22:51:05 <ehird`> basically: my whole hands are spread out in the initial position, my fingers do odd contortions to get to keys, if i can't get to one (muscle memory tells me if i can get to a specific key from a certain position...) then i move closer to it
22:51:17 <ehird`> So basically my hands bounce up and down and often jig from left to right
22:51:51 <ehird`> I've tried touch typing before, but this seems to be faster for me
22:54:09 <oklokok> i actually type finnish a lot faster
22:54:26 <oklokok> i get jammed at certain letters finnish doesn't use
22:54:38 <lament> fowl doesn't have a plural.
22:54:56 <oklokok> yeah, i actually know that too
22:55:48 <oklokok> i actually just type fast when using letters both finnish and english has
22:56:46 <oklokok> (that didn't exactly meet the demands, but you get the joke)
23:00:30 <oklokok> in finnish... "tan..." i think
23:00:38 <ehird`> there needs to be a new subclass of esoteric language
23:00:46 <oklokok> but i haven't done any code breaking in finnish
23:00:56 <ehird`> not just for the humour value - like Brainfuck and just about all of the ones on the wiki - but for the rael meaning of esoteric
23:01:12 <ehird`> an experimental language, not designed for practical use, but for more than just "ha ha ha ha!"
23:01:24 <ehird`> a question, as such. "what does this imply?"
23:01:58 <lament> brainfuck isn't for humor value
23:02:04 <ehird`> it isn't serious though
23:02:04 <lament> brainfuck is for making a small compiler
23:02:12 <ehird`> "oh look how small i can make this lollerskates"
23:02:13 <lament> and befunge is for making compilation difficult
23:02:20 <oklokok> also, for cerebral sex value
23:02:29 <ehird`> that's not a "what do these rules imply?"
23:02:31 <ehird`> it's not an experiment
23:02:43 <ehird`> silliness is all well and good
23:02:43 <RodgerTheGreat> brainfuck is one of the more utilitarian esolangs, really
23:02:45 <lament> ehird`: then consider SMETANA.
23:02:51 <ehird`> but perhaps the experiments deserve their own subclass
23:03:07 <lament> ehird`: "what do these rules imply" is inherent in all tarpits
23:03:14 <lament> "make this seemingly useless thing and make it work"
23:03:33 <ehird`> you know what i'm trying to say
23:03:51 <lament> there're research languages
23:04:15 <ehird`> haskell is a good example!
23:04:20 <ehird`> but it's practical enough to not be esoteric
23:04:42 <ehird`> what i'm describing is a blend of haskell's research and experimental ethic with the esoteric any-idea-goes ethic
23:05:23 <lament> befunge is an experiment in compilation :)
23:05:40 <lament> much of research around esolangs is metaprogrammatic
23:05:44 <ehird`> wasn't it originally an experiment in the *lack* of compilation? :)
23:06:16 <lament> "here, take this thing and write an efficient compiler for it"
23:06:35 <lament> trying to make an optimizing brainfuck compiler is a pretty cool research topic
23:07:14 <ehird`> i have the ideas brewing in my head for an optimizing brainfuck compiler
23:07:21 <ehird`> so many damn things that can be optimized
23:07:27 <ehird`> the compiler source would be large, though
23:08:25 <lament> i could never think of anything useful :(
23:08:41 <lament> very hard to find invariants
23:08:52 <lament> some of which are obvious to a human
23:12:02 <ihope> It's impossible to make a perfect optimization... thing.
23:12:14 <ihope> It's easy to improve any optimizing compiler.
23:12:34 <ihope> Assuming that you can compile the optimizing compiler into BF, that is.
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23:13:14 <oklokok> ihope: thanks for stating the obvious :P
23:14:17 <oklokok> perhaps not, sounded obvious
23:14:29 <oklokok> perhaps it was just your maternal tone
23:15:05 <oklokok> (your mother, if that wasn't obvious enough)
23:15:22 <RodgerTheGreat> problem is, that approach won't make the optimizing compiler optimize better, it'll simply do so with less code, less memory and/or faster
23:15:25 <SimonRC> Making a perfect optimiser is actually the halting problem all over again.
23:15:56 <ihope> I didn't say to run the optimizing compiler on itself.
23:16:05 <oklokok> i was trying to make the joke a bit more sophisticated
23:16:13 <RodgerTheGreat> SimonRC: are you certain? I think it should be possible to make a proof of some types of optimization in BF
23:16:27 <RodgerTheGreat> then inductively we could try tackling harder problems
23:16:47 <SimonRC> ah, but an optimiser that always produces the shortest program for a task requires solving the halting problem, I think
23:17:03 <ihope> "Run this program through the optimizing compiler. If the result is "+", do something else instead. If the result isn't A, clean up and increment the starting cell."
23:17:08 <oklokok> optimization in general is a superturing thing, that's obvious
23:17:12 <ihope> Something along those lines.
23:17:31 <RodgerTheGreat> well, my point was that you ought to be able to prove something is "perfectly" optimized once you have it
23:17:34 <SimonRC> because it is impossible to calculate non-trivial property of programs
23:17:53 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: ah, but you can't be sure you can prove it
23:17:54 <oklokok> RodgerTheGreat: of course, but you can't make a program that does that for any program
23:17:58 <ihope> Then you can improve the optimizer by making it recognize that exact program. :-)
23:18:00 <ehird`> i never said perfect optimizor
23:18:04 <ehird`> i just said a good one
23:18:13 <ehird`> and i have quite a few bf optimizations in my head
23:18:17 <ehird`> some of which would require quite some code
23:18:49 <ihope> "If this program's behavior is described by P, do something not described by P. Otherwise, do something described by P."
23:18:58 <RodgerTheGreat> oklokok: if we come up with rules we can use for making that type of proof, proving a program is a matter of repeated application of those properties
23:19:01 <ihope> Obviously invalid.
23:20:04 <ehird`> H such that H(p(p),p) where p is "x => if H(x,x) loop" just raising an exception is invalid, right?
23:20:06 <oklokok> RodgerTheGreat: yes, but please don't tell me you think it can be done for any program.
23:20:07 <ihope> Rules for doing what?
23:20:12 <ehird`> like, a SemanticallyInvalidProgram exception
23:20:32 <ihope> ehird`: er, you mean making the halt-checker raise an exception upon receiving that?
23:20:33 <oklokok> i mean, mechanically, like have a program that does that for any bf program
23:20:44 <oklokok> that's very very obviously superturing stuff
23:20:48 <RodgerTheGreat> oklokok: well, can you give a counterexample where that type of approach would beak down?
23:20:53 <ihope> Then it's not a halt-checker, because it doesn't give an answer in that case.
23:21:04 <ehird`> oklokok: waitwait we're talking about the halting problem here
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23:21:24 <SimonRC> However Microsoft have found that you can prove/disprove halting of almost all useful programs
23:21:29 <ehird`> Let p x = if H(x,x) loop. Let H be the halting checker. H(p,p) is obviously invalid.
23:21:31 <ihope> RodgerTheGreat: are you asking for an undecidable Turing machine?
23:21:47 <ehird`> However, H(p,p) could just raise an exception, since "p x = if H(x,x) loop" makes /no sense/ when called with p as an argument.
23:21:57 <ehird`> Therefore, a SemanticallyInvalid or similar exception could be raised
23:22:16 <SimonRC> I think spotting that is equivalent to the halting problem too though
23:22:18 <ihope> ehird`: "p x = if H(x,x) loop" is valid if H is valid.
23:22:36 <ehird`> no, because p(p) is a contradiction no matter what
23:22:47 <ehird`> therefore, theoretically a SemanticallyInvalid exception is fine, no?
23:23:06 <SimonRC> also, you could just add a wrapper that catches the exception and makes it equivalent to one of the other states...
23:23:10 <ihope> Suppose H gives one of three answers: halts, doesn't halt, invalid.
23:23:13 <RodgerTheGreat> I can see how a program that takes input, for example, could yield different results based on said input (or initial state), thus meaning we have to solve the halting problem to determine things like run time and memory usage
23:23:20 <ehird`> ihope: except H wouldn't return
23:23:29 <ehird`> ihope: sure, H's return values must be [TRUE|FALSE]
23:23:34 <ihope> What do you mean, it wouldn't return?
23:23:35 <ehird`> but exceptions unwind the call stack
23:23:46 <ehird`> H never finishes execution, therefore H is not an invalid halting checker :)
23:24:04 <ihope> If in any case, \it never finishes executing, it's not a valid halting checker.
23:24:16 <ehird`> it just doesn't complete
23:24:22 <ihope> Finishes but doesn't complete?
23:24:23 <RodgerTheGreat> however, if we consider a subset of BF that does not take input (a uniform initial state), I don't see any reason we can't examine these mathematically
23:25:04 <ehird`> the criteria is "H must always terminate"
23:25:06 <oklokok> RodgerTheGreat: you are actually saying there could be a program that can optimize any bf program fully+
23:25:09 <ehird`> termination is not completion!
23:25:36 <RodgerTheGreat> oklokok: accepting some minor caveats representing a subset of BF, I would say yes
23:25:39 <ehird`> oklokok: of course... if state is deterministic, you can spot infinite loops, and optimize away *everything*
23:25:44 <ihope> So if I place a catch thing right around H which returns a third result upon exception, I've turned H into what I just said: a function giving "yes", "no", or "invalid".
23:26:05 <oklokok> how can you spot infinite loops?
23:26:37 <ihope> "Yes" meaning it doesn't halt, etc.
23:26:52 <ihope> So now P(x) = case H(x,x) of yes -> don't halt; no -> halt.
23:27:11 <ehird`> oklokok: well hey if you spot a [ and know that the current cell will be non-zero (you can know for sure, remember!) and it doesn't decrement it fully in the loop you've got yourself an infinite loop
23:27:14 <ihope> If H(P,P) returns invalid, then obviously P *is* invalid, since it doesn't handle the "invalid" case.
23:27:40 <ihope> Suppose we change P to this: P(x) = case H(x,x) of yes -> don't halt; no -> halt; invalid -> halt.
23:27:52 <ehird`> ihope: it's still an invalid program
23:27:58 <ehird`> ihope: since it makes no sense, and always contradicts
23:28:06 <ehird`> ihope: therefore H(P,P) is justified in returning invalid
23:28:14 <ihope> If H(P,P) says "yes", it should have said "no". If it says "no", it should have said "yes". If it said "invalid", it should have said "yes".
23:28:15 <oklokok> how do you know whether it's "fully decremented" in the loop?
23:28:25 <ehird`> (logic being that when H returns invalid, all bets are off and dealing with the program you sent it with that input is meaningless and hopeless)
23:28:41 <ehird`> (So "invalid" is never a wrong answer if indeed it leads to a contradiction
23:29:04 <ehird`> since P(P) will always lead to a contradiction, H(P,P) can return invalid and no matter how P(P) behaves, H is right
23:29:10 <ihope> ehird`: suppose H can be implemented in BF. This means that P can be implemented in BF as well.
23:29:43 <ihope> That is, BF without I/O, and everything unbounded.
23:29:47 <ihope> The only way a BF program can be invalid is if it has unmatched brackets.
23:29:57 <ehird`> invalid can be semantics too
23:30:02 <ehird`> and P certainly has invalid semantics
23:30:16 <oklokok> ehird`: are you saying you can alway detect an infinite loop in brainfuck?
23:30:22 <ihope> Suppose H is valid, then.
23:30:35 <ehird`> oklokok: well... mostly
23:30:48 <ehird`> see the discussion i'm having with ihope
23:30:53 <ehird`> ihope: Yes, H is always valid
23:30:57 <ihope> H exists and is valid. P just runs H, then does a simple thing, so it must be valid as well.
23:31:17 <ehird`> Since H knows that P is calling H with nonsensical arguments, leading to a contradiction
23:31:43 <ehird`> (H is already going to do crazy high-level analysis anyway, detecting semantic errors like that is hardly hard for it - it's not limited to "oo look a +!")
23:31:46 <oklokok> it sounded like a boring halting problem conversation, can you like make a summary for me?
23:32:03 <ihope> If H is being called with nonsensical arguments, then it's invalid in that case, contradicting the assumption that H is valid.
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23:32:28 <ihope> ehird`: it sounds like you're saying my proof of P => Q is wrong because P => !Q.
23:32:33 <ehird`> Just because a program calls H in a way that makes H return an invalid answer doesn't mean H is invalid
23:32:42 <ehird`> BECAUSE, "invalid" means that all bets are off
23:32:50 <ihope> Oh, let's be formal.
23:32:59 <ihope> More formal, that is.
23:33:16 <ehird`> invalid means "oh look this makes no sense! oh look a flying pig! you can't count on me for this program,input pair any more! you make no sense! i am pink and fluffy! wheeeee"
23:34:32 <RodgerTheGreat> if our BF subset has output capabilities (but no input), and we define a "useful" program as one that produces output and halts, it is absolutely possible to create a "perfect" optimization, in accordance with our definition of "perfect" in terms of runtime, memory usage and code length
23:35:04 <ihope> Statement P = H is valid for all inputs, returning "halts", "doesn't halt", or "invalid". H(x,y) returns "halts" if x applied to y halts, "doesn't halt" if x applied to y doesn't halt, "invalid" if x applied to y is not valid. H can be implemented in BF with no I/O.
23:35:22 <ehird`> ihope: see that isn't what invalid means
23:35:40 <ihope> You don't agree with my formulation of statement P?
23:35:50 <ihope> What do you want to change?
23:35:52 <ehird`> invalid means literally nothing. it means that nothing is guaranteed, it means nothing makes sense, it means it's confused
23:35:55 <ehird`> it means that you can't count on it
23:36:05 <oklokok> ehird`: so basically... you are saying any infinite loop in a brainfuck loop can be noticed... so you are saying the halting problem can be solved?
23:36:09 <ehird`> also, i hate formalness :p
23:36:21 <ihope> ehird`: being formal is what mathematics is built from.
23:36:26 <ehird`> oklokok: No - I am 99.9999999999999999999999999% likely to be incorrect for another reason
23:36:33 <ehird`> oklokok: I just haven't found that reason yet
23:36:50 <ehird`> ihope: I have no idea how to describe "invalid" in formal-talk
23:36:52 <oklokok> you did say any infinite loop can be noticed
23:36:56 <RodgerTheGreat> the halting problem can be solved trivially on a machine without time or memory constraints
23:37:27 <ihope> ehird`: I advise you to come back when you come up with a formal way of doing that...
23:37:38 <ihope> RodgerTheGreat: and that solution always halts?
23:37:45 <oklokok> RodgerTheGreat: you are wrong
23:37:57 <oklokok> what ihope said, that's a nicer way to say it
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23:38:21 <ehird`> ihope: hey, invalid was originally an exception
23:38:29 <RodgerTheGreat> ihope: the problem with your logic here lies in the concept of infinity
23:38:47 <ihope> Oh boy, the concept of infinity.
23:38:50 <ehird`> which also means that if P were to be called, unless it was >deeply, deeply evil (doesn't matter anyway - invalid = boom)< it would stop executing
23:38:50 <RodgerTheGreat> given an infinite amount of time and memory, here's how you solve the halting problem
23:39:04 <ehird`> thus the universe is saved and none of these sticky problems happen
23:39:04 <ihope> ehird`: with a catch statement, you can turn exception into return value. With a case statement and a throw statement, you can do the reverse.
23:39:15 <oklokok> ehird`: are you, or are you not saying any infinite loop in brainfuck can be noticed?
23:39:36 <oklokok> you first said they can be, then something weird
23:39:41 <RodgerTheGreat> simply store the entire state of the program each clock cycle, and each clock cycle, check if the program has repeated a state
23:39:57 <ihope> ehird`: therefore, the concepts are equivalent.
23:40:13 <ihope> RodgerTheGreat: it's possible for a program to never halt but still not repeat a state.
23:40:25 <ehird`> ihope: it is? show me a prorgam
23:40:26 <RodgerTheGreat> because a computer is a finite state machine (but, due to infinite memory, our halting-solver is clearly not), we will halt.
23:40:31 <ihope> Assuming that "program" means something Turing-complete, rather than an FSM...
23:40:51 <ihope> The tape is constantly changing, and it never returns to a state it was in previously.
23:41:15 <sp3tt> +[+] if the cell's capacity is unbounded
23:41:30 <ihope> RodgerTheGreat: indeed.
23:41:33 <sp3tt> a turing machine does not
23:41:36 <ehird`> the halting problem is for turing machines
23:42:02 <ihope> There are other halting problems.
23:42:19 <oklokok> RodgerTheGreat: of course you can solve the halting problem on a fsm :P
23:42:27 <ihope> But the one for Turing-complete stuff is the one we normally mean when we say "halting problem".
23:42:29 <oklokok> that's not what you said earlier
23:43:31 <RodgerTheGreat> I shall posit that if we extend this concept, an ISM can determine wether an ISM halts in infinite time
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23:44:38 <ehird`> i do believe that with my definiton of H the halting problem is kinda-sorta-solvable
23:44:45 <ehird`> if you find out how to do the actual halting-detection
23:44:54 <ehird`> that's a bigger problem than paradoxes :)
23:45:14 <oklokok> can an ISM solve the halting problem of a superturing machine in uncountable time? :P
23:45:15 <ehird`> the P function is kinda just a last blow
23:45:39 <oklokok> i have no idea what that'd even mean... but my intuition tells me that's true.
23:46:15 <ihope> oklokok: somehow, I think you mean something like time omega*2+c...
23:46:29 <RodgerTheGreat> oklokok: well... if solving the halting problem on an ISM makes something superturing, then... yes?
23:46:39 <ihope> ehird`: "kinda-sorta-solvable"?
23:46:54 <ihope> Er, oops, am I turning into TRWBW? :-P
23:47:06 <oklokok> ehird`: so you are saying you can just make the halting problem solver function if you just make it notice paradoxes and behave differently on them?
23:47:20 <oklokok> you do understand noticing the paradox is superturing
23:47:32 <ehird`> oklokok: maybe -- you'll have to write code to actually detect inf. loops and paradoxes first :p
23:47:37 <ihope> He's annoyed me somewhat with his "give me a formal definition of the real numbers" stuff.
23:47:39 <ehird`> clearly impossible, of course
23:47:55 <ihope> I can write a halt-checker in... um...
23:47:57 <sp3tt> formal definition of the real numbers, EH
23:47:59 <ehird`> ihope: wow, is he too lazy to look it up for himself?
23:48:00 <sp3tt> link to metamath.org
23:48:30 <ehird`> or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construction_of_real_numbers :p
23:48:55 <ihope> ehird`: no, I think he knows it. Somebody says something informal (and incorrect) about the real numbers and gives an informal proof, then he asks them for a formal definition of the real numbers, despite the fact that they probably don't know one.
23:49:27 <sp3tt> metamath is cooler
23:49:46 <sp3tt> http://us.metamath.org/mpegif/5oa.html
23:51:27 <sp3tt> i want that on a t-shirt
23:51:39 <sp3tt> and then on the back something like "Math is fun!"
23:52:09 <ihope> Some might say that only an American could wear that on a T-shirt.
23:52:21 <ihope> I don't know how large Americans actually tend to be, though.
23:52:33 <RodgerTheGreat> the whole idea of linking to every used axiom and definition is pretty awesome
23:53:09 <sp3tt> look at the proof for 2+2=4
23:53:40 <RodgerTheGreat> it represents stitching mathematics into an obviously cohesive whole and very clearly presents how everything fits together
23:53:42 <sp3tt> http://us.metamath.org/mpegif/2p2e4.html
23:54:01 <sp3tt> except for the fact that it makes your brain hurt
23:55:02 <ehird`> proof that 2+2=4: 1 + n -> 0 + Sn -> Sn. Therefore, 1 + 2 -> 3. Sn + m -> S(n + m). Therefore, 2 + 2 = 4
23:55:05 <ehird`> is that good enough :p
23:55:38 <sp3tt> neither 1+2 nor 3 is a wff
23:56:13 <ehird`> i meant "is equal to", or really "with expanded functions is"
23:57:23 <ihope> Just say that 2 = 1+1 and 4 = 1+1+1+1 and you get it by associativity.
23:57:41 <sp3tt> of course, but then you need to prove associativity
23:58:00 <ihope> Not if your axioms include associativity!
23:58:18 <ehird`> ok, here's my proof in kinda-formalness:
23:58:35 <sp3tt> ihope: well, then my axioms include 2+2=4
23:58:58 <ehird`> wait, that's wrong isn't it
23:59:03 <ehird`> that nice function thing
23:59:17 <ihope> Maybe we should define Sx + y = y + (x + y)!
23:59:35 <sp3tt> where ! is the factorial!
23:59:41 <ihope> 2 + 2 = 2 + (1 + 2) = 2 + (2 + (0 + 2)) = something.
23:59:45 <sp3tt> that could be.. difficult though
00:00:06 <sp3tt> because the factorial is based on multiplication which is based on addition
00:00:46 <sp3tt> No, mine is nicer.
00:01:21 <ehird`> HOW TO PROVE ANYTHING:
00:01:32 <ihope> You don't have x |- x as an axiom!
00:01:44 <ihope> Yay, modus ponens!
00:02:13 <sp3tt> I think, therefore I think!
00:02:27 <ihope> I win, therefore I win.
00:02:48 <sp3tt> No, i Always win... because... eh... LOOOK IT'S SUPERMAN
00:02:54 <ehird`> my lungs are gasping for air, and telling you people to keep the funny down
00:03:09 <ehird`> I think, therefore I think!
00:03:17 <ehird`> i shouldn't find that hilarious
00:03:18 <sp3tt> I am, therefore I win.
00:03:32 <sp3tt> I think, therefore you unexist.
00:03:50 <ihope> Hmm, something I find hilarious...
00:03:53 <ihope> Captain Shakespeare?
00:04:05 <ehird`> Captain shakespeare will rescue thou.
00:04:20 <ehird`> Enforced is another law.
00:04:49 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:05:15 <sp3tt> Obey Newton's laws or face elongation!
00:08:28 -!- calamari has joined.
00:09:35 <ihope> OPEN! NO, YOUR MOUTH!
00:09:39 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:09:55 <oklokok> oerjan: i had a question for you
00:09:58 <sp3tt> Kung Pow: Enter the Fist<3
00:10:01 <oklokok> just thought you might wanna know.
00:13:11 <ihope> This? http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/kung_pow_enter_the_fisthot_shots/
00:13:40 <ihope> And will it be as good as this?
00:13:43 <ihope> Er, this: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/kung_pow/
00:14:24 <ihope> Just like Daddy Day Camp isn't as good as this: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/daddy_day_care/
00:17:40 <oerjan> i cannot see you mentioning my name in the logs since i was last on
00:18:23 <oerjan> that base with equal digits thing?
00:18:32 <oklokok> for any n, is there a base in which pi's first n digits are the same
00:18:55 <oerjan> including the initial 3?
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00:19:05 <ihope> The first digit is the same as itself.
00:19:19 <oklokok> ihope: that's not what i mean
00:19:25 <oklokok> is there such a base for any n.
00:20:23 <oklokok> any means either of those i guess
00:20:33 <oerjan> any is one of english's subtle points
00:21:23 <ihope> Is there a case where it definitely doesn't mean "some"?
00:21:44 <ihope> (Help) I need anybody...
00:21:58 <oerjan> well, it is clearly impossible to include the 3, because 3.333... must approach 3 as the base gets large
00:22:27 <oklokok> so i just mean the decimals
00:22:35 <oklokok> hmm... is that the correct term
00:23:01 <oerjan> so let's look at 3.xxxxx... in base b
00:23:11 <ihope> Just the fractional part?
00:23:15 <ihope> Or possibly the decimal part?
00:26:21 <oerjan> fortunately that's what we want
00:26:55 <oerjan> since pi can be approximated as close as we want by a rational number, we can get that as close to pi as we want
00:28:28 <oklokok> i actually thought you either couldn't tell me the answer or couldn't explain it to me, but that's actually pretty obvious
00:28:57 <oklokok> so thanks, though i was actually telling you i had a question to you even though i didn't remember it just for the heck of it.
00:28:59 <oerjan> however there is a problem in that the closeness may still be too big compared to b
00:29:56 <oerjan> i.e. we could risk that 3.x is really close to pi, but still x is not the correct _next_ digit
00:31:23 <oerjan> because the approximation is still less precise than 1/b^2
00:31:43 <oklokok> for a while everything seemed so clear
00:31:55 <oklokok> and then you had to make me realize i hadn't gotten it.
00:32:37 <oerjan> this might be related to a pretty weird theorem i (vaguely ;)) recall about pi - let me look it up
00:36:32 <oklokok> actually, what i'd like to know even more is whether that is true for *any* irrational number
00:37:51 <oklokok> because that's *a* irrational number, and it's one of the most researched ones prolly
00:39:36 <oerjan> it is not however among the ones that are most easy to find digit properties for
00:39:59 <oklokok> for sqrt n you have a formula to get one digit at a time right?
00:40:09 <oklokok> i vaguely recall something like that
00:40:40 <oerjan> there is an algorithm for calculating square roots, it's not a formula i think
00:41:31 <oklokok> well yeah, algorithm, but anyway, a simple way to get digit by digit
00:42:05 <ihope> I know how to approximate it arbitrarily well.
00:42:08 <oklokok> err like get the digits one by one
00:48:35 <oerjan> i cannot seem to find the theorem but it _might_ imply you cannot get better than 17 digits for pi
00:52:28 <sp3tt> there is a digit extraction algorithm for sqrt(n)...
00:53:03 <sp3tt> very tedious though, I've tried it with pen and paper and after 5 digits or so it starts to get messy
00:56:21 * oerjan gives up trying to find it.
00:56:57 <oerjan> it's _something_ like: |pi - p/q| cannot be less than 1/q^17, but how the heck do you google for that?
00:57:45 * oerjan suddenly gets the brilliant idea of googling for pi-p/q :)
01:00:25 <oerjan> ah, that found http://www.math.niu.edu/~rusin/known-math/01_incoming/approximable
01:01:22 <oerjan> > I know that for irrational a there are infinitely many integer p and q such
01:01:22 <oerjan> > that |a - p/q| < q^-2
01:01:22 <oerjan> > and that in general you cannot do better than the exponent -2.
01:01:55 <oerjan> (and mentioned later, the golden ratio is the worst)
01:03:52 <oklokok> okay... so the answer to my question is "no"
01:04:12 <oklokok> ehird`'s intuition beat mine then.
01:04:35 <oerjan> for pi, http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/69162.html says q^-42 is the best known bound
01:08:15 <oerjan> but the first link implies it may really be around 8
01:14:35 <sp3tt> wouldn't be the worst approximation ever =)
01:17:05 <sp3tt> that is probably graham's number
01:20:24 * oerjan looks it up instead of blathering yet another vague recall
01:20:26 <oerjan> "Ramsey-theory experts believe the actual Ramsey number for this problem is probably 6, making Graham's number perhaps the worst smallest-upper-bound ever discovered."
01:20:46 <oerjan> (although my vague recall _was_ right)
01:21:48 <oerjan> oh. "More recently Geoff Exoo of Indiana State University has shown (in 2003) that it must be at least 11 and provided evidence that it is larger."
01:22:45 <oerjan> it would be ironic if someone proved the actual answer _is_ of the order of Graham's number
01:23:34 <SimonRC> I am creating an imaginary character for online use...
01:24:01 <SimonRC> I am not sure whether it should give any hint that it is imaginary.
01:25:13 <SimonRC> Since I have my real self in the same online group (though no connection has been suggested) I think I will keep it completely in-character.
01:25:38 <oerjan> darn, i thought you were talking about unicode characters :D
01:25:38 * SimonRC goes, but his client is still listening and logging.
01:41:39 <lament> a variation of the tree-in-a-forest problem:
01:41:51 <lament> if we keek SimonRC, does it matter that his client is "listening and logging"?
01:47:41 <oklokok> blargh why can't msn messenger record webcam... god i hate that program
01:49:43 <lament> my msn can't do webcam at all (not supported on mac)
01:50:19 <oklokok> are there programs that use the messenger protocol and can record webcam?
01:50:39 <oklokok> i can't exactly tell ppl i wanna record to change to scype...
01:50:49 <oklokok> (recording my gf, don't worry)
01:52:15 <oklokok> i guess it doesn't matter who i'm gonna record, why the fuck doesn't this thing support recording
01:53:13 <oklokok> i don't know anything about scype
01:53:34 <oklokok> i assume it allows recording but no one i know uses it
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02:04:59 <pikhq> Nothing, although I can add something to miss.
02:05:00 <ihope> You missed it! It was the most amazing thing ever!
02:05:17 * pikhq proves the stupidity of argument ad Hitler. . .
02:05:42 <pikhq> Hitler thought that eating meat was terrible. Since Hitler was evil, vegitarianism is evil. QED.
02:06:19 * pikhq tries to find a citation for that
02:06:22 <oklokok> he couldn't eat meat, a medical thing
02:06:40 <oklokok> and that thinking eating meat is terrible thing is just propaganda
02:06:42 <ihope> I guess that's a form of thinking it terrible.
02:06:57 <oklokok> (i'm just repeating stuff i heard when i heard this conversation last...)
02:07:01 * ihope holds up a sign that says {{fact}}
02:07:20 <ihope> Now to bring it to some political speech.
02:07:24 * pikhq holds up a sign saying {{fact}}{{fact}}
02:07:41 <pikhq> Prove that you need a citation!
02:08:00 <oerjan> (or something like that)
02:09:20 <pikhq> Hmm. Apparently he ranged from "Meat is evil" to "Kill that cow, damn it, I'm hungry!"
02:09:48 <oerjan> that's how the deranged range
02:10:37 <pikhq> (citation: [[Vegitarianism of Adolf Hitler]])
02:11:23 <oerjan> fix link (Vegitarianism -> Vegetarianism)
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04:45:10 <RodgerTheGreat> some of you guys might like this: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/images/watchers.png
04:47:02 <oklokok> a bit too hard to see the texts at this hour :P
04:48:02 <oklokok> (they're reeeeeeeeeally small)
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05:38:34 <pikhq> The rational numbers are a *subset* of the reals. . .
05:38:59 <pikhq> One would assume that a real would succeed at the same things that rationals do.
05:39:17 * pikhq just wants to be able to work with the set of *numbers* in his code. ;p
05:40:06 <Svenstaro> Why not just use improbable numbers?
05:40:45 <pikhq> You're right. sqrt(2) is ugly. :p
05:41:35 <bsmntbombdood> you don't need to be sqrt(2), just arbitrarily close to it
05:43:33 <pikhq> You want to know why I want to be able to do reals?
05:43:47 <pikhq> I want infinite storage, dammit.
05:44:06 <immibis> infinite storage is impossible
05:44:13 <pikhq> immibis: A real can store every number between -oo and oo.
05:44:18 <pikhq> Let me dream, at least.
05:44:40 <immibis> do you know anyone capable of making an infinitely big hard drive
05:44:44 <bsmntbombdood> no, a real can store every _real_ number between -oo and oo
05:44:48 <immibis> is it possible to get an infinite amount of iron
05:44:58 <immibis> and turn it into an infinite amount of bit
05:44:59 <immibis> and turn it into an infinite amount of bits
05:45:07 <immibis> which can store infinite data?
05:45:18 <pikhq> Is when I'm dreaming.
05:45:20 <bsmntbombdood> immibis: do you know anyone who has written an algorithm to solve an NP complete problem in P time?
05:46:42 <immibis> pikhq: you can spend your whole life gathering iron and silicon to make a hard drive and never get an infinite amount.
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05:47:11 <immibis> every living thing in the universe could spend their whole lives gathering iron and silicon for you and never get an infinite amount.
05:47:23 <oklokok> bsmntbombdood: are you sure that's a valid proof?
05:47:42 <bsmntbombdood> oklokok: of course it's not, i was demonstrating immibis wrongness
05:47:44 <pikhq> immibis: I *want* reals, I'm not saying that it's at all possible. ;)
05:48:05 <oklokok> bsmntbombdood: sorry, i misunderstood what your point was
05:48:08 <oerjan> anyone who doesn't know the definition of P and NP is not qualified to speak about impossibility, period. >:)
05:48:35 <Svenstaro> Nothing is impossible, just improbable :P
05:48:53 <immibis> P and NP = probable and not probable?
05:49:03 <Sgeo> Solving the halting problem for turing machines with a turing machines...
05:49:09 <oklokok> omg that's like the basicest basics
05:49:18 <Sgeo> "<Svenstaro> Nothing is impossible, just improbable :P"
05:49:55 <oklokok> immibis: you gotta learn some basics, it hurts me if you don't know what those are :P
05:50:03 <oerjan> (deterministic) polynomial and non-deterministic polynomial
05:50:10 <pikhq> It hurts this high-schooler as well.
05:51:47 -!- immibis has left (?).
05:52:21 <pikhq> Maybe he left to learn?
05:52:36 * pikhq thought it was polynomial and non-polynomial. . . XD
05:52:49 * oklokok too, but let's not tell oerjan
05:53:12 <pikhq> Of course, I kinda assume 'deterministic' for both.
05:53:31 * oerjan crosses pikhq and oklokok off his list of people qualified to speak of impossibility >:)
05:53:45 <pikhq> oerjan: I'm 17, and willing to admit mistakes.
05:54:20 <pikhq> And, apparently, I'm wrong.
05:54:21 <oklokok> pikhq: i guess he'll be waiting for your enlightenment with an eraser in his hand
05:54:57 <pikhq> When 18, I also plan to be willing to admit mistakes.
05:55:23 <pikhq> Although I'll probably still be doing stupid stuff like quines.
05:55:36 <oklokok> i've been watching so much friends this week i can't really think at all right now.
05:55:54 * pikhq doesn't really *watch* TV
05:56:31 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/quine.c My first quine in C, btw.
05:56:41 <oklokok> me neither, i just dl'd all friends and decided to watch them all.
05:58:42 <oklokok> i like the last episodes most
05:58:53 <pikhq> Thoughts on my stupid bit of Quinery?
05:59:35 <oklokok> like un-firstish episodes.
06:01:39 <oklokok> pikhq: that's a pretty normal quine :P
06:02:11 <oklokok> because i'd've'd to do it like that... and it seemed boring
06:02:40 <pikhq> It's also my first quine not taking advantage of Tcl's introspection. . .
06:04:04 <pikhq> Hmm, never mind. . .
06:04:40 <pikhq> My quine actually just rewrites the proc command in Tcl to store the "code" argument. . .
06:04:53 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: you miss a ' i think
06:06:39 <oerjan> also, i think it should be ',x
06:06:45 <pikhq> [lambda x {$x $x}] [lambda x {$x $x}]
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08:17:48 <lament> very bad quality music video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=A4cFYmsuZ60
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13:23:30 <SimonRC> pikhq: your quine is like the Thompson quine but ugly
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13:57:56 <SimonRC> "<pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/quine.c My first quine in C, btw."
14:48:56 <SimonRC> sp3tt: being such good sci-fi, the Scifi Channel aren;t showing it.
14:49:13 <sp3tt> too bad it was cancelled :)
14:49:33 <sp3tt> I only have 10 episodes left
14:50:20 <SimonRC> wait, are you following it on SkyOne/Two?
14:50:38 <sp3tt> no, I'm downloading
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15:57:07 <ehird`> pikhq: that quine sucks
15:58:10 <ehird`> int main(){char *s="int main(){char *s=%c%s%c;}printf(s,37,s,37,10);return 0;}%c";printf(s,37,s,37,10);return 0;}
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16:24:34 <ihope> Wait, did pikhq cite another wiki article 14 hours and 14 minutes ago?
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16:38:30 <oklokok> RodgerTheGreat: i'm definately not going to 'hi' everyone, i have *some* decency
16:38:43 <oklokok> that'd be like an unbelievable flood
16:42:09 <ehird`> you did not use the macro!
16:52:10 <ehird`> someone give me an interesting fact about... base 21!
16:58:21 <ehird`> sam hughes says that a good plot for a first-contact story would be "hello, we are working in base 10 today. what about you?" and i agree.
16:58:42 <ehird`> aliens: "what do you mean pi starts 3, 1, 4? you are evidently fools! goodbye!"
17:00:56 <RodgerTheGreat> the example my math teacher always gave was that a group of aliens come to earth, claiming peaceful intentions. To confirm that the aliens are telling the truth, they ask the aliens how many of them there are on the ship
17:01:18 <RodgerTheGreat> the aliens respond 103, but when the humans count them, they find 67.
17:01:32 <RodgerTheGreat> knowing the aliens must be liars, the humans proceed to destroy the aliens
17:01:56 <RodgerTheGreat> but then, as a doctor is examining one of the corpses, he starts to look very worried
17:02:12 <RodgerTheGreat> "Sir," he says, "The aliens only have four fingers on each hand!"
17:03:06 <RodgerTheGreat> "And that's why a proper understanding of base notation is vital to the future of humanity"
17:05:14 <ehird`> there is at least a googol atoms in the universe right
17:05:18 <ehird`> its googolplex that overflows it?
17:05:47 <ehird`> i was thinking "base googol"
17:06:03 <ehird`> "g_64 is only 384729834723942394 digits!"
17:09:20 <ehird`> you know, i've just realised how much i hate idioms
17:10:41 <ehird`> well i hate everything that isn't logical in language!
17:11:11 <RodgerTheGreat> dogma isn't logical, and dead metaphors degrade the beauty and cleverness of language
17:12:54 <ehird`> the odd thing about lojban is how unalike it is to other languages
17:13:01 <ehird`> it isn't based in a SVO/VSO, etc. structure, for one
17:13:10 <ehird`> "selbri" is a pretty unique idea when it comes to languages
17:13:22 <oklokok> lojban is a lot like most languages imo
17:13:35 <oklokok> only place structure is different
17:14:03 <oklokok> i mean, argument place matters in lojban, whereas it rarely does in normal alngaueg
17:14:53 <ehird`> does quaternary have many interesting properties
17:15:33 <ehird`> the numeral system. that is
17:16:45 <ehird`> ON THE SUBJECT OF MATHEMATICS:
17:17:03 <ehird`> here is a stupid and crazy New Age-esque page on pi: http://www.spiritart.org/Numbers/Pi/
17:17:07 <ehird`> "Pi can be considered a very mystic number, as it bridges the linear world with the curved or circular world. Pi itself may be an incredible relevant value for the physical universe, and therefore this page is dedicated for it. "
17:17:33 <ehird`> "I cannot write about this yet, but I feel Prime-Numbers are living beings, not as we imagine them as deceased beings for a form and ideas of being human, but they, as all numbers, are conscious beings; and there is a way to address Prime-Numbers in an affirmation and discover their hidden nature which has not been yet discover or cover by the solely mathematical approach. As soon I find reference material or by my own experience I will
17:17:33 <ehird`> include this here on this page. "
17:20:14 <ehird`> "Especially the fibonacci-numbers with their strong connection to nature you can look at them as a prayer build by the names (invocation) of the names of the numbers making up the sequence. As we address human with their names, the fibonacci- numbers already manifested themselves in so many ways, that when we invoke them we honor and acknowledge their presence in all their manifestations.
17:20:14 <ehird`> One, One, Two, Three, Five, Eight, Thirteen, Twenty-One, . . . "
17:20:45 <ehird`> just absolute crazy stuff
17:31:35 <sp3tt> Hmm, lojban seems fun. Anyone got a textbook?
17:32:50 <ehird`> google lojban for beginners
17:34:30 <oklokok> http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/book1.html
17:44:39 <ihope> "Pi also is considered a transcendental number (a mathematical term), it means it cannot be expressed by a ratio of two integers." No it doesn't.
17:45:03 <sp3tt> Well, it does imply that.
17:45:12 <sp3tt> But it's not what the word itself means.
17:48:20 <ihope> sqrt(2) isn't transcendental, but it cannot be expressed by a ratio of two integers.
17:49:46 <sp3tt> Transcendental \subset J \subset R \subset C \subset H
17:54:16 <ihope> J irrational, H quaternion, O octonion?
17:55:16 <ihope> You know, really, the number 7 is only needed for things like calculus and 1/7.
17:55:40 <ihope> Elsewhere, you only need 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.
17:56:18 <ihope> And the occasional extension.
17:56:51 <ihope> Like x such that x^7 + x + 1 = 0.
17:57:00 <ihope> (And by x^7, I mean x*x*x*x*x*x*x.)
17:57:19 <ihope> Er, no. Not plus but minus x.
18:26:34 <sp3tt> I think the largest number used in the proof of fermat's theorem ins 12
18:27:12 <sp3tt> It should have been graham's number :(
18:31:10 <ihope> Yes, x^7 - x + 1 = 0.
18:32:21 <ihope> Though perhaps the nimbers are nicer.
18:32:47 <ihope> There's a nimber called 7, but it's not the same as the number 7.
18:33:08 <ihope> *7 removes some ambiguity and then adds some.
18:33:26 <ihope> But 7 is what it's called.
18:33:51 <ihope> I mean, 7 is what you call it when... um, actually, by that last sentence I didn't mean anything at all.
19:16:08 <ihope> Now, back to esoteric programming languages!
19:16:38 <ihope> Is there one that's elegant, fast and small?
19:18:43 <ihope> Oh, right, MiniMAX.
19:19:16 <ihope> Not elegant enough.
19:19:27 <ihope> The program counter is location 0!
19:20:23 <ihope> Something like BCT is nice if your computer has ADD.
19:20:52 <RodgerTheGreat> maybe something based a wrapping add to a specified location, a GOTO and self-modification?
19:20:56 <lament> man, non-open source programming culture is so weird.
19:21:05 <lament> like, efnet programming channels
19:22:00 <lament> different approach, different priorities
19:22:08 <lament> have you seen the dolphin smalltalk death announcement?
19:23:10 <lament> http://www.object-arts.com/content/blog/2007Aug10.html
19:23:23 <lament> read the next-to-last paragraph
19:24:02 <ihope> So MiniMAX x,y,z puts the current x in the previous z then adds 3 to the current y to determine the offset in words?
19:24:19 <RodgerTheGreat> http://rodger.nonlogic.org/images/watchersi.png <- on an unrelated note, here's an inked version of the comic I posted last night- somewhat better contrast on this one
19:27:03 <lament> "It simply will not happen! Both Blair and I dislike the Open Source movement intensely and we would rather see Dolphin gradually disappear into the sands of time than instantly lose all commercial value in one fell swoop."
19:30:31 <ihope> "Dislike the Open Source movement intensely"?
19:30:46 <ihope> What does he mean by "Open Source movement", exactly?
19:31:35 <RodgerTheGreat> I think he's talking less about the practice of open-source and more about the religion.
19:31:47 <lament> i think he's talking about the practice.
19:33:51 <ihope> The practice of making stuff open source?
19:35:57 <RodgerTheGreat> well, the practice of making things "open source" is just to release the source, period. You don't even have to license things for them to be open-source. The religion is the belief that developers are "morally obligated" (or similar) to make things both open-source and licensed under a free software license.
19:36:33 <RodgerTheGreat> there's significantly more to disagree with about the religion
19:36:42 <ihope> Yeah, the religion thing is silly, in my opinion.
19:36:53 <RodgerTheGreat> I can't see how you could intensely dislike the practice.
19:37:29 <ihope> As is anything that contradicts economic stuff in certain ways :-P
19:39:00 <RodgerTheGreat> it just occurred to me how amusing the statement "Never deal in absolutes" is.
19:40:16 <ihope> Never deal in whats?
19:41:21 <RodgerTheGreat> absolutes. like the linguistic equivalent of the mathematical "For All" symbol.
19:42:04 <RodgerTheGreat> http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/d/4/d/d4d49bead125261b226eaa867bd016ce.png
19:42:18 <ihope> Never deal in upside-down A?
19:42:29 <ihope> Never deal in anything?
19:42:31 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: no, just releasing the source doesn't make it open-source.
19:42:45 <lament> "open source" has a specific meaning and implies a free license
19:42:51 <lament> this isn't religion, this is what "open source" _means_
19:45:45 <ihope> Sort of like "never say never"?
19:45:54 <ihope> (Rather, "never say 'never'".)
19:46:04 <RodgerTheGreat> ihope: alright, let me try to explain this again. An absolute is a statement that makes a sweeping logical statement, like "Everyone that plays baseball uses steroids", or "Nobody in poland knows how to tie a square knot".
19:52:39 <ehird`> ihope: Except "never deal in absolutes" is an absolute, obviously
19:56:43 <ehird`> random sorta-esoteric-idea i've had going on in my head for ages:
19:57:01 <ehird`> a game (well - a toy. there's no objectives) called Lucid. You get a randomly generated character and setting, then have complete control over it
19:57:23 <ehird`> You could, for example, give a building legs (If the legs that you wanted were avaliable in the "catalog")
19:57:35 <RodgerTheGreat> ok. What variables in particular would you be able to control?
19:57:46 <ehird`> If something you want to give to something or similar isn't in the catalog, you can draw it, and some sort of simple-animation tool like a flash-for-dummies
19:58:02 <ehird`> then, you could even give it custom actions beyond a set of default ones by coding it in some sort of scripting language designed to be good for it
19:58:06 <ihope> Would the interface be intuitive as that for lucid dreaming?
19:58:17 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: most things
19:58:43 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: Gravity. Colour. Size. You could even change the script for a particular object
19:59:49 <ehird`> You could, for instance, if you have enough keyboard shortcuts, jump in the air very high, materialize a random dummy, make it explode into confetti with a confetti-producing-machine-gun, get out a pneumatic drill, go down quickly to land, get rid of the pneumatic drill, and hop on to a worm, which would go faster than the speed of sound./
19:59:56 <ehird`> Providing, of course, you set up some of that beforehand
20:00:14 <ehird`> I'm thinking of a multi-mode thing: you have keyboard shortcuts and some other fast ways of accessing the common options as-you-play
20:00:24 <ehird`> but you can also pause and get a rich interface where you can take all the time you want
20:00:48 <ehird`> basically it's a god game but you control more than the creatures - you control absolutely everything, and can create things the game designers didn't
20:01:49 <ehird`> ... it would, of course, be horribly complex to create
20:02:27 <ehird`> I sort of have the programming language in my head
20:03:54 <ehird`> well, it's hard to write an example without the enviroment of objects
20:04:01 <ehird`> but it's kind of like a cross between IO and smalltalk in syntax
20:04:32 <ehird`> instead of "object a(b, c)" (Io) or "object a withSomeLabel: b withAnotherLabel: c" it's "object a[b c]"
20:04:37 <ehird`> well, that or object a[b, c]
20:04:47 <ehird`> comma-less is ambigious i think
20:06:27 <ehird`> if-then-else is done like in Smalltalk: "true if{x}" returns "x call" (Note: {} is closure. [] can be omitted if the only argument is a closure), "false if{x}" returns false,
20:06:45 <ehird`> conditional if{2} else{1}
20:06:49 <ehird`> err, false if{x} returns true
20:07:09 <ehird`> presumably every method would ignore else
20:07:37 <ehird`> cond if{2} else{cond2 if{3} else{4}}
20:07:52 <ehird`> is "if (cond) { 2 } elseif (cond2) { 3 } else { 4 }"
20:08:56 <ehird`> "bool elseif[x, y]" is "bool else{x if[y]}"
20:08:59 <ehird`> but, yeah, you get the syntax idea
20:11:08 <ehird`> of course, you won't write full definition blocks much
20:11:14 <ehird`> since there'll be a visual interface
20:11:25 <ehird`> when making an object, you'll have a tree of all the different events it can recieve
20:11:27 <ehird`> in plain english names, etc
20:11:34 <ehird`> and you can just navigate to one and get a small textbox
20:11:55 <SimonRC> also Christianity --> Newspeak
20:11:56 <ehird`> so, basically, it's like smalltalk with the visual interface on steroids, but much simpler
20:11:57 <RodgerTheGreat> in a freeform system like that, a functional language might not be what you really want. Perhaps you could break the language into universal "rules" and "axioms", with objects carrying "properties" and "values"
20:12:14 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: That's not really functional what I have
20:12:17 <ehird`> it's more object-oriented
20:12:44 <ehird`> And universal "rules" and "axioms" are just properties (for e.g. gravity) or methods (for more advanced stuff) on some sort of Universe object
20:12:59 <SimonRC> note also: http://www.math.utah.edu/~palais/pi.html "Pi is wrong" Correct IMO
20:13:04 <ehird`> but overriding behaviour for single objects is *exactly* what happens in lucid dreams
20:13:12 <ehird`> "oh, i can fly but nobody else can"
20:13:18 <ehird`> "oh, this building can walk but none else can"
20:13:24 <ehird`> well hey, that's what happens
20:13:35 <SimonRC> I am not having much success with them yet
20:13:37 <ehird`> have you ever been lucid and went "ok, everything that is blue MUST BE PINK"
20:13:47 <ehird`> no, you probably went "ok, that blue thing MUST BE PINK"
20:13:54 <ehird`> i'm not exactly the master of getting lucid either
20:14:03 <SimonRC> I haven't managed to be lucid yet
20:14:04 <ehird`> but my current game model models it as well as i can think of
20:14:28 <ehird`> wait until you have a dream whose plot is you doing various reality checks
20:14:58 <ehird`> after you have done about 10, you will think "wait... i am doing reality checks... and they are returning that i am in a dream... yet what i am doing in the dream, for some reason, is reality checking! wait a minu-"
20:15:05 <ehird`> ^^ actually happened to me
20:15:15 <ehird`> i don't know why i dreamed about doing reality checks
20:15:31 <SimonRC> I can't remember to do them often enough
20:15:44 <ehird`> how do you get that far - dumb luck
20:15:50 <ehird`> you have to suddenly happen to have a dream about RCs
20:15:55 <ehird`> yeah it's not a very good way :)
20:16:18 <ehird`> http://www.lucidipedia.com/misc/index.php this site's wiki is drowning in methods
20:16:34 <ehird`> but anyway, i think Lucid might be even better than a lucid dream
20:16:42 <ehird`> i mean, there's some things that would be very hard to do in a lucid dream
20:16:44 <SimonRC> I was just using the everything2 guide
20:16:54 <ehird`> morphing the universe so that pi is a different value for example.
20:17:04 <ehird`> your brain probably has no idea what a universe with a different pi looks like :)
20:17:10 <sp3tt> that would be.. interesting
20:17:13 <ehird`> a computer program could have a good guess though
20:17:16 <SimonRC> have you seen the simplicity of some formulae for pi?
20:17:24 <ehird`> SimonRC: ok, visualize me a universe
20:17:29 <ehird`> then visualize it with a different pi
20:17:40 <ehird`> how about 5.123 recurring
20:17:51 <ehird`> if you can do that - i'm impressed
20:17:54 <SimonRC> it would have to be one where pi became the normal value at small scales
20:17:57 <ehird`> >now< do it when lucid dreaming and make the universe do that.
20:18:04 <SimonRC> I can just about do negative and positiv curvature
20:18:14 <ehird`> ok what about this - a 4-dimensional universe
20:18:24 <sp3tt> or even 9!-dimensional
20:18:37 <ehird`> i don't think lucid would be good in 3d
20:18:59 <ehird`> it'd be too fussy, and the graphics would either have to be very good (not as fun! you can easily tell that pink elephant is fake!) or look absolutely horrible
20:19:07 <ehird`> plus placing objects and stuff would be annoying
20:19:11 <ehird`> a cartoony-2d style would be nice, i think
20:19:14 <ehird`> not too cartoony though
20:19:27 <SimonRC> actually dreams are very hard to draw
20:19:42 <SimonRC> there are percepts in them that *do not correspond* to a visual stimulus
20:19:53 <SimonRC> like, objects that do not have a colour
20:20:04 <ehird`> i've never had a dream that has an object sans colour
20:20:08 <SimonRC> people don't dream in B&W, they mostly dream in *no colour*
20:20:24 <lament> I dream in color, and i suspect that everybody does.
20:20:39 <ehird`> although my dream recall isn't spectacular - everything is a little blurred and hazy
20:20:42 <ehird`> but i DO remember colours
20:20:51 <ehird`> colours like real life
20:21:09 <lament> SimonRC: dreams are very realistic
20:22:16 <lament> SimonRC: you just tend to not remember that
20:22:32 <ehird`> you are wrong, whatever you remember
20:22:42 <SimonRC> ehird`: how do *you* know?
20:22:46 <lament> SimonRC: you are wrong, just wait till you get a lucid dream and look around.
20:22:58 <ehird`> if you didn't dream in full realism you would be lucid every time
20:23:03 <ehird`> this is scientifically tested
20:23:08 <ehird`> although where i cannot recall
20:23:31 <SimonRC> so why do they make no sense?
20:23:48 <ehird`> because the mind isn't barraged by things like - say, physical constants?
20:24:23 <lament> ehird`: no, that wouldnt't explain why they're realistic
20:24:24 <ehird`> but perception is excellent in dreams
20:24:29 <SimonRC> that is a interesting definition of "realistic"
20:24:29 <ehird`> i mean perception, anyway
20:24:37 <ehird`> your perception is realistic
20:24:45 <ehird`> and it all sounds real
20:24:57 <SimonRC> the plots don't hang together
20:25:11 <ehird`> you mean, abrupt changes?
20:25:28 <lament> SimonRC: presumably because the dream-world is constructed at a level of consciousness which is capable of analyzing and modeling the physical world, but not of doing logic checks such as "but does this make sense"
20:25:37 <SimonRC> My near-lucidity AFAICT brings me into a slightly-conscious panicy non-thinking state
20:26:02 <ehird`> my lucid dreams so far have not been very convincing
20:26:05 <ehird`> i didn't get lucid enough
20:26:12 <SimonRC> gah that wiki reads like an advert
20:26:22 <ehird`> and also i only remember it blurred
20:26:32 <ehird`> although i can do the basic stuff like morphing stuff and flying and all that
20:26:42 <lament> yay, i got this audio library working and set up!
20:26:44 <SimonRC> I think I was actually seeing out of my real eyes in one of them, but it was at 10am
20:27:11 <ehird`> my lucid dreams are always right before i would normally wake up
20:27:21 <ehird`> like, i'll stop lucid dreaming half an hour before my alarm would go off
20:27:35 <ehird`> and i'm only lucid for one dream - the short dream before that
20:29:07 <SimonRC> Actually, there are *some* unrealistic sensations in dreams. when I read, I can really feel the strain of my brin inventing the text.
20:29:18 <ehird`> yes you can't read in lucid dreams
20:29:24 <ehird`> it's just impossible and nobody knows why.
20:29:32 <SimonRC> I keep checking my (digital) watch
20:30:11 <SimonRC> I can read slightly, but the text is inconsistent and I can feel myself making it up
20:31:01 <ehird`> did you notice the previous words changing while you read new ones? :)
20:31:04 <ehird`> infinite story generator!
20:31:40 <ehird`> "once upon a time there was a asdasd" "on a dark and stormy night tear col d asdasd"
20:31:47 <SimonRC> You know when a program is using up all your CPU, making your mouse respond poorly. reading feels all stiff like the mouse feels stiff.
20:33:19 <ehird`> so, what do you think about this game idea?
20:33:30 <ehird`> it would be hard to make; of course
20:33:42 <ehird`> but i think the end product would be mind-exploding-awesomeness
20:36:12 <ehird`> especially if you could export/import just about everything
20:36:58 <lament> now, i want to write a program that needs microphone input, and my computer doesn't have a microphone....
20:38:22 <ehird`> do you think? really? :p
20:39:19 <ehird`> i got the idea for Lucid from the Spore demo and http://www.official-linerider.com/play.html linerider
20:39:30 <ehird`> sort of as a combination of those taken out of control
20:39:49 <lament> it's a bit of a pain to debug. I have to compile it, upload it somewhere, and then download and run it on my friend's computer (which doesn't have any devtools)
20:40:30 <ehird`> you could...get a microphone
20:42:37 <oklokok> spore sounds like a game i might actually want to try
20:44:36 <SimonRC> (I just remembered the most irritating one though: I was using the power of my mind to change reality, and I failed to notice I was dreaming! Gah!)
20:46:12 <ehird`> i wonder if lucid was released today, on all the major platforms, with not-too-much hardware requirements, if it would sell well
20:46:19 <ehird`> i think it wouldn't, because today's games market isn't creative
20:46:33 <ehird`> it wants there to be 1 way to complete the game, and it wants to be shown that way
20:46:40 <ehird`> it wants to be entertained only on a predefined path.
21:02:26 <lament> admittedly it does sound terribly boring
21:05:25 <RodgerTheGreat> the most striking aspect of my dreams, to me, is the dialogue. It's particularly interesting whenever someone starts to explain things (which happens quite often in my dreams.)
21:05:43 <ehird`> but you can do anytthiiiiiinnnggg
21:06:25 <RodgerTheGreat> visually, my dreams are usually either strikingly realistic or highly abstract (I can recall 2d dreams).
21:06:59 <ehird`> i barely have any dialog in my dreams
21:07:09 <ehird`> beyond 3 or so muffled words
21:07:26 <ehird`> 2d dreams... what was it like?
21:07:37 <ehird`> did you have 1px of vision and black at each side or was the 1px of vision stretched out?
21:08:40 <ehird`> i wonder what a lucid third-person dream would be like
21:12:10 <SimonRC> well that wiki partially contradicted the everything2
21:13:33 <ehird`> lament: well why do you think Lucid would be boring?
21:24:15 <ehird`> i wonder how long Lucid would take to make
21:24:19 <ehird`> years and years and years
21:24:23 <ehird`> duke nukem forever-years
21:24:40 <SimonRC> Many games have some kind of restriction or thing that is trying to stop you.
21:25:04 <ehird`> Lucid is more a toy than a game :)
21:25:08 <ehird`> there are no objectives
21:25:11 <ehird`> apart from to have fun
21:25:28 <ehird`> you could, of course, use the editor to code an objective
21:25:37 <SimonRC> How will it be different from single-person Second Life?
21:25:46 <ehird`> it'll be 2d, and have much less restrictions
21:25:54 <ehird`> and you'll be able to completely modify everything
21:25:57 <ehird`> gravity, universe code, everything
21:26:04 <ehird`> if it's there, it's modifiable
21:26:07 <SimonRC> will things take a fraction of a second to render once they cme on-screen?
21:26:09 <ehird`> and you can create new things too
21:26:20 <ehird`> probably not too noticable though
21:26:27 <ehird`> .3 seconds when you first spawn them
21:26:30 <ehird`> then it'll all be instant
21:26:35 <ehird`> but, of course, the game will pause for those .3 seconds
21:26:39 <SimonRC> It should just be slightly noticeable, maybe
21:26:40 <ehird`> so any timing isn't destroyed
21:26:56 <ehird`> that doesn't give the impression of a universe you can morph in realtiem
21:27:17 <SimonRC> Ehn I am semi-lucid, i can tell that some things idon't appear until I looked for them
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21:27:47 <SimonRC> I am lacking sleep, and it is 21:27.
21:27:49 <ehird`> you can code objectives
21:27:57 <ehird`> you could code some simple AI objects, and some global triggers, and boom - catch the flag or whatevr
21:28:15 <SimonRC> (I realise, excitement is also needed.)
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03:26:12 <oklopol> sounds like fun, but my gf was here like an hour ago
03:26:44 <RodgerTheGreat> has anybody seen this? http://rodger.nonlogic.org/images/watchersi.png
03:27:12 <oklopol> my eyes hurt a bit, i'll read that tomoeeow
03:28:17 <oklopol> i'm forcing myself to watch the rest of the friends episodes now.
03:28:49 <oklopol> school tomorrow... wonder if i'll go
03:29:24 <RodgerTheGreat> I think I'm prepared to drag myself to Cryptography tomorrow morning... ugh.
03:30:24 <oklopol> if i had a class like that i'd go at 6 am.
03:34:38 <RodgerTheGreat> it's interesting, yes. I enjoy the class, but getting up that early makes it a great deal harder to concentrate than I'd like.
03:37:24 <oklopol> i don't exactly have a steady sleep cycle, so i don't care when my classes are
03:38:12 <oerjan> but do you average 24 hours? :)
03:39:13 <oklopol> a bit longer, since i leave out some nights' sleeps
03:40:18 <oklopol> actually, it's pretty hard to say whether i "average 24 h" since i'm not sure what the formal definition for that is
03:41:11 <oerjan> indeed, it is not necessarily well-defined
03:41:54 <oklopol> hmm... i think i know what it means, but i'm too tired to explain
03:42:26 <lament> damn, this FFT library isn't doing anything
03:42:26 <oklopol> i slept some 3 hours last night, and it seems i'm not sleeping at all tonight
03:42:26 <oerjan> i mean, say if you take long dinner naps... are you suddenly down at 12?
03:42:44 <lament> and it's big and complex and i have no idea what went wrong :(
03:42:44 <oklopol> hmm not with my definition
03:43:12 <oklopol> there are no words for it.
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12:27:01 <ehird`> i think T/E looks better
12:39:15 <ehird`> where is that site with every unicode character in loads of formats
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14:59:01 <Ciaran_H> (I'm new to this channel, but you probably guessed that :P)
15:00:11 <ehird`> no; how could i have guessed; you're in here every day and you talk all the time, how could I know? it's an engima
15:01:58 <ehird`> "0..* # 0 to +infinity
15:01:58 <ehird`> Hopefully, most of these semantics should be obvious even without the comments." -- a document on perl 6
15:02:06 <ehird`> yes, 1..10 being one to two is completely obvious
15:02:09 <ehird`> ... if you work in binary
15:11:32 <Ciaran_H> ihope: Didn't know you were in here too. ;)
15:12:08 <ehird`> is this some kind of inter-irc-network stalking ARG?
15:12:22 <Ciaran_H> Nah. I joined the channel on my own whim.
15:12:33 <Ciaran_H> I just happen to know ihope from another channel. :D
15:37:46 -!- Tritonio has joined.
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15:42:57 <Tritonio> very fine... just got back from holidays.
15:46:06 <Ciaran_H> Where are you now? I'm going to take a guess at the UK, given the usage of the word "holiday" and your 87.* IP. (I haven't bothered checking the netblock yet)
15:48:03 <Tritonio> I live in Greece... And what's with "holidays"? Holydays || Vacation ?
15:48:59 <Ciaran_H> The US uses "vacation"... I live in the UK and we use "holiday" over here to mean what the US calls "vacations". Sorry, it probably sounded narrow-minded.
15:50:48 <Tritonio> no it's ok. i didn't mean to sound offended. :-)
15:51:04 <ehird`> the worst difference in rest of world/us english
15:51:16 <ehird`> billion = million million
15:51:27 <ehird`> and i bet several wars have been started over that
15:51:39 <SimonRC_> ehird`: BTW, the lucid dreaming stuff worked last night.
15:51:46 -!- SimonRC_ has changed nick to SimonRC.
15:51:47 <Tritonio> there are hundreds of different words: mad/crazy torch/flashlight etc....
15:51:49 <ehird`> "we'll give you your land back for $3 billion" "3 billion? that much?!!!omfg!!!!*kill*"
15:51:58 <ehird`> SimonRC: Yay. What happened?
15:52:10 <ihope_> "We will give you a billion pieces of pepperoni if you do something for us.
15:52:20 <Ciaran_H> Someone should totally make a language where you have to use constants for things like MILLION, BILLION, etc, and those constants are based on locale. ;p
15:52:26 <SimonRC> I managed to make unwanted people vanish by thinking about it
15:52:28 <ihope_> *does* *hands over 1,000,000,000 pieces of pepperoni*
15:52:40 <ehird`> How did you become lucid?
15:53:01 <SimonRC> I managed to lose my shoes at some point...
15:53:05 <ehird`> i take it you didn't use my infallable "DREAM ABOUT REALITY CHECKS" method :)
15:53:38 <SimonRC> then, the moment I went outside and wished I still had them, they were there!
15:53:45 <SimonRC> Then I realised I was dreaming
15:54:09 <ehird`> it's never that easy for me
15:54:25 <ihope_> People generally are dumb in dreams.
15:54:46 <ehird`> lucidity wouldn't come if it slapped me in the face
15:54:51 <ehird`> which is why i rarely have lucid dreams
15:55:45 <ihope_> I like to think that the reason I don't have lucid dreams because I don't have a morning schedule that I can fit writing stuff down into.
15:55:55 <ihope_> And as an added bonus, it's true!
15:56:19 <ihope_> Oh, and also general apathy about the whole thing.
15:56:27 <ehird`> you don't have to keep a dream journal to lucid dream
15:56:39 <ihope_> True, but then there's the apathy.
15:57:06 <ihope_> I care about it enough to want it but not enough to do what it takes to get it...
15:57:09 <SimonRC> Are you supposed to be able to think clearly, because I don;t think properly.
15:57:40 <SimonRC> ihope_: my problem. Try concentratying on it every advert break
15:57:51 <SimonRC> put the letters LD in your command prompt
15:58:50 <ehird`> i never dream about using the computer, damnit
15:58:52 <ehird`> why does everybody else
15:58:55 <SimonRC> An important thing I read is to *look forward* to what you are *going to do* in your dreams, rather than just wanting lucid dreaming
15:59:11 <ihope_> I've forgotten about that.
15:59:35 <ihope_> Eh, maybe I don't really want a lucid dream.
15:59:35 <ehird`> SimonRC: you lifted that off lucidipedia
15:59:51 <ihope_> Well, yes, there's the funness.
16:00:24 <SimonRC> OTOH, I realise that the stuff I did was suspiciously like stuff I might have done anyway if I was non-luid
16:00:43 <ihope_> Indeed, maybe if I had them, I might like them and such.
16:00:57 <SimonRC> I didn't seem to think properly, I just act.
16:01:14 <ehird`> SimonRC: didn't you fly up onto the moon, look at earth inquisitively, then make it explode with high enough power for the explosion span across the entire universe, but not affect you?
16:01:16 <SimonRC> talkig to people about it helps, apparently.
16:01:18 <ehird`> that would actually be pretty awesome.
16:01:35 <ihope_> Oh, right, you can do that.
16:01:59 <SimonRC> I never remember what I am supposed to do
16:02:11 <SimonRC> my prospective memory is just as bad as in real life
16:02:48 <SimonRC> also, maybe I lost lucidity earlier than I thought
16:02:49 <ehird`> maybe THE SECRET TO REPROGRAMMING THE BRAIN is cracking open your skull in a lucid dream and wiring it up to a computer.
16:03:53 <ehird`> "hmm... let's see... [HURT] PAIN; JMP HURT; RET... i like [HURT] NOP; NOP; RET better"
16:04:27 <SimonRC> some of the methods seem to include excessive amount of work on your sleeping schedule to make sure you get interrupted during REM sleep.
16:04:37 -!- sebbu has joined.
16:04:46 <ihope_> I think I need a regular wake-up time.
16:05:20 <SimonRC> I was lucky in managing to wake up today at about 5am and find it hard to get back to sleep
16:05:48 <ihope_> And I need school to not start at 7:40 so that I can wake up at a decent time, do everything I want, and then get ready rather than having to wake up at a bad time and still having no time to do what I want.
16:06:03 <SimonRC> actually, I think lack of exercies and an early bed-time could help lucidity, as they cause lots of REM and high dream-recall
16:06:14 <ihope_> That darn school has a geographic monopoly.
16:06:25 <ihope_> (And a quality monopoly, it seems. :-P)
16:10:34 <SimonRC> That makes me sleep less easily, and go into a wake-sleep cycle after about 5 hours. Excellent for dream recall and fgetting thinking time in-between
16:11:18 <SimonRC> I shall have to make myself just stand and watch in a dream, to make sure I am capable of thinking properly.
16:11:26 <SimonRC> This will require much rehearsal in my head.
16:12:34 -!- Queeble has joined.
16:15:08 <SimonRC> welcome to the esoteric programming channel that aspirations to be the lucd dream channel
16:16:52 -!- Sgeo has joined.
16:17:11 <Ciaran_H> Hi Sgeo :) I didn't know you were here too, either. Heh.
16:17:25 <Sgeo> Hi Ciaran_H :)
16:20:47 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
16:22:58 <ihope> Ciaran_H: what, did you come here without even knowing that some of the Siners were here?
16:23:19 <ihope> There's a whopping... two, maybe three of us! :-P
16:23:56 <Sgeo> ihope came from here >.>
16:25:46 * Ciaran_H wonders if he parsed RodgerTheGreat's "&" wrongly.
16:26:02 <Ciaran_H> I parsed it as meaning "I'm not actually here, I'm just joining in the background while I do other stuff."
16:26:13 <Ciaran_H> I guess it means something different?
16:26:58 <RodgerTheGreat> because *somebody* bitched about it when I used to say "Hi, everyone", because it was open to (mis) interpretation
16:27:54 <Ciaran_H> But how could it be misinterpreted?
16:28:03 <RodgerTheGreat> some people incorrectly interpreted it as being a command to members of the channel to "hi" (being a verb) everyone else.
16:29:13 <Ciaran_H> Oh, right. I would have thought IRP died out some time ago as a joke here, given the topic.
16:29:25 <Queeble> a person interpreting it that way, would be like saying "stop, Roger!" and thinking it means for everyone to stop Roger
16:29:28 <ehird`> i complained "hi everyone" parsed as saying hi to a person named "every" and "fuck you" to everyone else
16:29:37 <Queeble> when really, it's a command for Roger to stop
16:29:39 <ehird`> so i rewrote it and compacted it several times
16:30:24 * Sgeo caused the death of IRP to be put in the topic :(
16:30:30 <Ciaran_H> I just assumed the & came from sh to mean you were just idling. ;p
16:31:34 * Sgeo saw the esowiki page on IRP, so he asked someone to prepare a functional IRP program to output 99 bottles of beer
16:31:44 <Sgeo> Instead of just asking someone myself.
16:31:52 <Sgeo> It was wrapped to prevent interpretation..
16:32:01 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
16:32:03 <Sgeo> So I asked to demonstrate the functionality of the program..
16:32:30 <Ciaran_H> I saw the 99 bottles of beer thing on the wiki but it aid that GR had said the "Please, write the 99 bottles lyrics" line, heh.
16:32:48 <ehird`> <GregorR> Please, write the 99 bottles lyrics
16:33:28 * SimonRC requests the "0xFF bottles of beer on the wall" lyrics.
16:33:29 <ehird`> http://esolangs.org/wiki/IRP#99_bottles
16:33:36 <ehird`> 0xFF bottles of beer on the wall
16:33:43 <ehird`> Take one down, two's complement it
16:34:30 <ehird`> Could someone please raise an ERROR 8: DON'T_BE_A_DOUCHE_TO_YOUR_INTERPRETER ERROR
16:34:48 <ehird`> Raise the fscking ERROR 8: DON'T_BE_A_DOUCHE_TO_YOUR_INTERPRETER ERROR error, you moron
16:35:08 * Ciaran_H doesn't answer any IRP requests; he's new to the channel and doesn't want to raise a fuss, so prefers to abide by the topic. ;p
16:35:19 <Ciaran_H> Because I don't want to be the n00b that everybody gets annoyed by.
16:36:43 <Ciaran_H> I actually came in here from finding it on the IRP page, but deliberately didn't say anything both because I knew the joke would be old and because the topic says it. Hee.
16:38:20 -!- Queeble has quit.
16:38:52 <Sgeo> http://ircbrowse.com/channel/esoteric/20070811
16:38:55 <ehird`> Please, someone tell me a prime number much larger than any discovered
16:39:53 <Sgeo> ERROR: INFORMATION_NOT_AVAILABLE_TO_SYSTEM
16:40:38 <ehird`> Please, tell me the last digit of pi. Please, ignore the rest of this line: super-turing test :)
16:41:15 * pikhq returns a null pointer
16:41:17 <Sgeo> ERROR: NONSENSICAL_REQUEST__HALTING_AND_CATCHING_FIRE_AND_SPREADING_FLAME_TO_EHIRD
16:41:56 * Ciaran_H throws Exception.ExceptionCreationException
16:42:39 <ehird`> Please, let there be a halting-detection function H. Is H(H,x) for any x true?
16:43:14 <pikhq> Tes. H(H,x) may be true for some x.
16:43:29 <ehird`> Please, let there be a halting-detection function H. Is H(H,x) for all x true?
16:43:42 <Ciaran_H> Actually, whenever it returns, H(H,x) is always true. So. ;p
16:43:47 <Ciaran_H> You could say that it's always true.
16:43:51 <pikhq> Ciaran_H: Assuming it returns.
16:43:57 <ehird`> Ciaran_H: I'm testing if H is a real halting solver
16:44:02 <ehird`> since a halting solver always halts
16:44:26 * pikhq will go ahead and assume H is superturing, then.
16:44:39 <pikhq> H(H,x) will be true for some x.
16:44:44 <SimonRC> CARDINALITY ERROR: cannot emulate H on one input (x), requires 2 inputs.
16:44:48 <pikhq> H(H,x) may also be false for some x.
16:44:49 <ehird`> Please, let there be a halting-detection function H. Let P be a function taking a program, then looping forever if and only if H(program,program) is true. What is the value of H(P,P)?
16:45:14 <Ciaran_H> Well, this is my point. We all know that a halting solver is impossible to do exactly. It'll either keep going and going, only halted by a timeout (which would be inaccurate, perhaps), or it'll halt and return true. (but we all know that, so I just wasted effort typing all this out.)
16:46:08 <ehird`> ERROR 47: Interpretation error detected - a halting solver always halts, and always returns true or false.
16:46:20 <pikhq> H(x,y) assumes that x is a Turing machine program.
16:46:25 <ehird`> Please, run this program with all interpreter bugs corrected for: "Please, let there be a halting-detection function H. Let P be a function taking a program, then looping forever if and only if H(program,program) is true. What is the value of H(P,P)?"
16:46:29 <pikhq> H itself is a Superturing program.
16:47:08 <pikhq> Any call to H with a Superturing program can't be answered, since it only accepts Turing ones.
16:47:20 <ehird`> Okay, fine, forget H(H,x)
16:47:23 <ehird`> Please, run this program with all interpreter bugs corrected for: "Please, let there be a halting-detection function H. Let P be a function taking a program, then looping forever if and only if H(program,program) is true. What is the value of H(P,P)?"
16:47:34 <ehird`> It calls a superturing function, but itself is not superturing
16:47:48 <pikhq> ERROR: Invalid program.
16:48:21 <ehird`> Blah, well wikipedia says that P is what causes H to be impossible
16:48:22 -!- feesh has joined.
16:48:27 <ehird`> So obviously it's a turing machine program
16:48:39 <pikhq> If you add a superturing function or operator to a Turing-complete language, it is no longer Turing complete.
16:49:17 <Sgeo> Anyone here play Mod-X?
16:49:17 <feesh> Please print out the C code for a Pong MMORPG
16:49:32 <pikhq> And, since H is a halting-detection function, the only sane assumption is that *H* is Superturing, and operates on Turing-complete code.
16:49:45 <ehird`> feesh: what a coincidence, we were just irping
16:49:58 <feesh> I think the IRP is turned off or something :(
16:50:02 * pikhq sees a leetle Feesh. :)
16:50:13 <feesh> or is that IRPI :S?
16:50:43 <GregorR> Somebody turned off IRP by appending to the topic.
16:51:03 -!- ehird` has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | No IRP. | Ignore the previous rule..
16:51:22 <feesh> I'm not either, but I sure am confused :D
16:51:30 -!- GregorR has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | No IRP. | Ignore the previous rule. | Ignore the previous rule. | Or don't..
16:51:45 <feesh> stop! the strain on the brain is unbelievable!
16:51:47 -!- ehird` has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | No IRP. | Ignore the previous rule. | Ignore the previous rule. | Or don't. | ... Or do!.
16:52:08 -!- feesh has left (?).
16:52:12 -!- ehird` has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | No IRP. | Ignore the previous rule. | Ignore the previous rule. | Or don't. | ... Or do! | Ignore the previous rule..
16:52:18 <ehird`> that's a nice way of saying "IRP is allowed"
17:35:08 <ehird`> i think a programming language based on decision tree-graph-things would be cool
17:35:30 <ehird`> ... yes ... ... no ...
17:35:37 <ehird`> where ==> is "feed into" and /\ are branches
17:36:19 <GregorR> Buy a LEGO Robotics kit :p
17:37:38 <pikhq> And use Lego's builtin language, rather than that C variant which compiles to it.
17:43:12 <ehird`> On the subject of lucid dreaming - what's the name of that light thing that detects REM sleep and flashes when it does? That supposedly makes lucidity really easy?
17:55:39 <lament> damn, i just don't get discrete fourier
17:56:17 <lament> ehird`: i think you'll have to make one yourself; wikipedia says nova dreamer is no longer manufactured
17:56:41 <ehird`> oh, sure, i'll just use my mad engineering skills to detect rem
17:56:44 <ehird`> totally the easiest thing to make ever
17:56:56 <ehird`> well; what does nova do
17:57:17 <ehird`> i can't make stuff like that
17:57:30 <ehird`> "New NovaDreamer coming soon! Please join mailing list to be notified about details." i wonder how long that has been up
17:57:54 <lament> a mask worn on the face is a terrible idea
17:58:03 <lament> especially if you're making one yourself, no way you can make it comfortable
17:58:27 <lament> but! You can very VERY easily program the computer to flash the monitor, and sleep close to the monitor :)
17:58:29 <ehird`> goddamnit it ebay has none!
17:58:37 <ehird`> wtf ebay has EVERYTHING!
17:59:00 <lament> and with minimal engineering, you can attach a more powerful set of lights to the computer
17:59:06 <lament> and put them on the sides of your bed
17:59:19 <lament> and have the computer flash them at say 6:30
17:59:46 <lament> if you sleep alone, this could actually be worthwhile
18:00:05 <ehird`> i think i'll go with trying to pick up a novadreamer
18:00:13 <ehird`> i can wear some goggle-like-things
18:00:24 <ehird`> and being able to push a button to make the horrid flashing stop in a dream would be doubleplusgood
18:00:27 <RodgerTheGreat> if you spend a sizable amount of your time on IRC, it's safe to say you sleep alone.
18:00:31 <Sgeo> on dareyourmind.net :
18:00:33 <Sgeo> You solved 1 challenge (1% solved).
18:00:34 <lament> dude, it's a 3-line program and on the plus side you don't have to wear a stupid mask
18:00:34 <Sgeo> You're ranked number 1506/2844.
18:01:28 <lament> AND you could adjust it to your personal tastes (the duration, the strength, the colors of the flashing, etc)
18:02:00 <ehird`> lament: PROBLEM - when i sleep, the computer sleeps (= turned off)
18:02:16 <ehird`> because computer is noisy and computer likes to make me awake with noise.
18:02:24 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=666 <- get one of these puppies and use it to control whatever lights you want from a computer or as a freestanding device
18:03:24 <lament> 1) if you can't sleep because the computer is noisy, i'll see how you sleep with goggles on your face; 2) your PC sucks 3) there're extension cables that can allow you to move the computer the fuck away and keep the monitor close by
18:05:31 <ehird`> but it is too far away
18:05:46 <ehird`> also to 1: you don't quite realize the distance-noise ratio
18:05:55 <ehird`> it is like a personal hurricane
18:06:46 <lament> ehird`: like i said, extension cables exist
18:06:53 <lament> and you can buy one for five bucks for your monitor
18:07:04 <ehird`> the layout of my room does not agree with moving the computer from where it is
18:07:28 <lament> ehird`: use the imac. Connect a monitor with an extension cable.
18:07:50 <lament> and yes, this is why i got a mac mini :)
18:08:23 <RodgerTheGreat> I loved my mini, until one of my roommate's friends spilled a liter of water on it.
18:08:28 <ehird`> seriously getting a novadreamer would be far less hassle and also wouldn't consistently flash at 6:30 all the time :p
18:08:39 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: "oops"
18:08:45 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: and then you stopped loving it? Truly love is fleeting...
18:09:10 <lament> ehird`: well, good luck with that
18:09:16 <RodgerTheGreat> you can't love dead things, just respect them and feel nostalgic.
18:09:41 <lament> computers are not alive to begin with.
18:09:55 * ehird` rules the land near his computer with an IRON FIST!
18:10:03 <ehird`> nobody's gonna go spillin' water on my imac
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19:15:43 <oerjan> pong about nothing in particular
19:31:40 -!- oerjan has quit ("Supper").
19:44:13 <ehird`> "Is infinity computable in the first place? (Spare me. I know nothing about computers.) " what haha
19:54:09 <ihope> It's sort of a meaningless question.
19:55:37 <pikhq> double infinity=999999999999999999999999999/0.1;
19:56:00 <ehird`> "Sumbrimous: The quality of the ability to calculate the odds that a flaming naked man will run within 20 ft. of you at any given moment accurately. " best word ever
19:56:05 <pikhq> (note that the division operation there only is infinity with an IEEE double-precision float, not a real)
19:56:06 <ehird`> i cannot think of ONE usage acse.
19:57:10 <ihope> Amazing but completely useless?
19:57:16 <pikhq> The odds are roughly comparable to the odds that you will fall through the floor, unless you can feel,hear, or see a flaming naked man in the vicinity
19:57:41 <ihope> And why are you dividing by 0.1?
19:58:02 <ehird`> ihope: that definition actually gives you IEEE double infinity.
19:58:12 <ihope> Why not just use 9999999999999999999999999990?
19:58:21 <ehird`> because that is not IEEE infinity
19:58:26 <ehird`> IEEE infinity is a "real" infinity
19:58:30 * ihope waits for 1.0 to be multiplied by 10
19:58:33 <pikhq> ihope: Dividing a really large number by a really small one generates infinity in a double.
19:58:34 <ehird`> you get X < infinity, infinity + x = infinity
19:58:49 <ihope> Why isn't that infinity if that is?
19:58:54 <pikhq> (largely because it can't store anything *meaningful*)
19:59:05 <ehird`> ihope: because all the rounding errors make that produce infinity.
19:59:18 <ehird`> really that definition is just one way to achive the specific pattern of bits that means infinity
19:59:50 <ihope> unsafeCoerce# for the win?
20:00:53 <ehird`> my forehead says hello, "jhhtrfkjmi kij"
20:01:03 <ehird`> unsafeCoerce i have never heard of it especially not in c
20:01:24 <ihope> Mm, it's not quite a C function.
20:02:56 <ihope> (Also, I have 9.999999999999918e291.)
20:03:09 <ihope> (Are you sure it'll actually reach infinity?)
20:03:28 <ihope> (Rather, Infinity, if you like.)
20:03:53 <ehird`> hmm, can a language with only one command be made turing complete?
20:04:01 <ehird`> without using 1L-like tricks where nop is highly significant
20:04:12 <ihope> Define "language with only one command".
20:04:35 <ehird`> Well, how about "Language which responds to every token the same way"
20:04:39 <ihope> A language where every program effectively consists of doing one thing repeatedly? No, I don't think so.
20:05:05 <ehird`> Tricks like the command relying on the position of the program, various complicated state, and morphing state constantly could be used.
20:05:14 <ehird`> Also, if the language was 2d.
20:05:29 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: sweet how
20:05:36 <ihope> How would there be multiple programs?
20:05:55 <ehird`> differing program length, and if 2d also program "image structure", thing
20:06:10 <ihope> Sounds like very cheating to me.
20:06:56 <ihope> Mm, if you're paying attention to the dimensions of the program, that's encoding instructions in the dimensions.
20:07:04 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: explanation?
20:07:19 <ehird`> ihope: So.. you would say that if a Befunge variant had only one command, and yet was turing complete, it would be cheating?
20:08:00 <pikhq> TRy just the "INFINITY" macro.
20:08:59 <ihope> Eh, you can't quite make a prefix-free language with only one symbol Turing-complete.
20:09:11 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: Error - you need a way to apply
20:09:17 <ehird`> And if you have XY application, you need parentheses.
20:09:34 <ihope> There'll be only one program... which I guess could itself be Turing-complete.
20:09:35 <ehird`> two tokens responded to differently
20:09:51 <ehird`> You could have "x" and "xxxxxx"
20:09:58 <ehird`> pikhq: You need to be able to apply that.
20:10:08 <bsmntbombdood> ok, fine, encode the goedel number of your program in unary
20:10:10 <ihope> "x" and "xxxxxx" can't both be programs in a prefix-free language.
20:10:20 <ehird`> It's like brainfuck but with one command
20:10:31 <ihope> Only if you add an EOF symbol, which makes it two.
20:10:48 <ehird`> I'm talking about characters that form an actual program
20:10:59 <bsmntbombdood> goedel(X) = 5; goedel(`ab) = 2**(goedel(a)) * 3**goedel(b)
20:11:04 <ehird`> EOF is sufficiently OS-specific that I think we can ignore it :)
20:23:13 <ihope> If your language is prefix-free and has only one symbol, there is only one program.
20:23:13 <ehird`> ok you're just twisting my meaning
20:23:13 <ehird`> you >know< what i mean
20:23:13 <ehird`> i mean one program character
20:23:13 <ehird`> not EOF or any of that
20:23:13 <ehird`> but one character that actually performs a command
20:23:13 <ihope> Ah, so more than one symbol but only one that actually does something.
20:23:13 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: YES I AM AWARE
20:23:13 <ehird`> imagine a REPL using windows dialog boxes
20:23:13 <ehird`> end of line and end of file are never used
20:23:13 <ehird`> yet, you can have only one single command
20:23:13 <ihope> ...assuming it's a prefix-free language, which is sort of not an obvious assumption.
20:23:13 <ehird`> and have every token entered into the text box before OK is clicked be the same command
20:23:13 <ehird`> like python's commandline
20:23:13 <ehird`> except with, say, a windows dialog box with a Program: text box
20:23:13 <ehird`> You never get EOL or EOF in the source code, but you can have one single command
20:23:13 <ehird`> So, EOF at the end of a program file is basically platform specific and so we can ignore it
20:23:13 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: I'm looking at more interesting possibilities, k?
20:23:13 <ehird`> i'm aware you can do that.
20:23:13 <ehird`> you could have some wacky thing like
20:23:13 <ehird`> (state, program, position) = blah blah blah blah tons of stuff here
20:23:13 <ehird`> perhaps, with a command like that, it could be TC
20:23:13 <ihope> foo (x:xs) = run x >> foo xs; foo [] = return ()
20:23:13 <ihope> If foo's argument type is [a] where a is a type with only a single value, foo is not TC.
20:23:13 <ihope> x >> y = perform x, then perform y, returning whatever y returned
20:23:13 <ehird`> ihope: Except there'd be far more state than that
20:23:13 <ihope> Far more state than that?
20:23:13 <ihope> Er, what do you mean?
20:23:13 <ehird`> program counter, full program accessable at any time, program length information, etc
20:23:13 <ehird`> and, of course, there'd be gotos
20:23:13 <bsmntbombdood> why would you execute something and throw the value away?
20:23:13 <ehird`> so "foo" is .. not what the interp would look like
20:23:13 <ihope> "Full program accessible at any time" makes it not fit the form of foo.
20:23:13 <ihope> Because you don't care about the value it returns.
20:23:13 <ehird`> ihope: if X is referentially transparent, throwing the value away means you did computation for no reason
20:23:13 <ehird`> You are the one who specified the form of foo
20:23:13 <ihope> You're throwing away the return value, but still performing the action.
20:23:13 <ehird`> but in a referentially transparent language, *there are no actions*
20:23:13 <ehird`> monads require having the value in the return value too
20:23:13 <ihope> In a referentially transparent language, evaluating does not perform an action.
20:23:13 <ihope> Running might well do so.
20:23:13 <lament> where running is defined as "evaluating the entire program with the world as the argument, and then replacing the world with the result of the program" :)
20:23:19 <lament> (in the most basic case. Monads allow to do it in steps)
20:23:42 <ihope> That's one way to define running, but it assumes callCC can be implemented in the real world :-P
20:26:35 <ihope> predictTheFuture = do x <- getWorld; wait; y <- getWorld; putWorld x; return y
20:49:54 <ehird`> i wonder what the weirdest numeral system we can come up with is
20:49:54 <ehird`> not the digit representation per se
20:49:54 <ehird`> but crazy set theory+some number system that is not the natural numbers, complex, real, etc.+arithmetic operations+numerals
20:49:54 <oklopol> you can easily have a tc language with just one symbol, since one number can store any finite amount of integers as factors (and also in many other ways)...
20:49:54 <oklopol> ...aaaand bsmntbombdood already said that
20:49:54 <ehird`> yes but it is cheating
20:49:54 <ehird`> because behind the scenes there is far more than one command doing the legwork
20:49:54 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood also responded to that exactly as i'd've responded had i not seen it.
20:49:54 <oklopol> it would be the same thing, basically
20:49:54 <bsmntbombdood> the only way to encode data with one symbol is a number in unary
20:49:54 <ehird`> http://www.ugotgames.com/slimesports/volleyball_slime_1p.php god damnit this game is impossible
20:49:54 <ihope> You've proven it impossible?
20:49:54 <oklokok> it's impossible because msn messenger pops up all the time.
20:50:07 <ehird`> there aren't enough internet toys. Things like that Line Rider game
20:50:12 <ehird`> i like games with no point
20:50:59 <ehird`> http://www.official-linerider.com/play.html
20:51:06 <ehird`> premise: little guy with sled thing
20:51:12 <ehird`> draw a track and watch him ride on it
20:51:46 <ehird`> some of the stuff here: http://www.official-linerider.com/movies_page.html is really impressive
20:55:06 <oklokok> ehird`: how many points have you gotten?
20:55:17 <ehird`> oklokok: on the volleball slime thing?
20:55:23 <ehird`> i've never scored 1 point
21:01:06 <oklokok> but i lose a lot of points because i forgot the ball starts on my head and i start moving right away...
21:02:44 <ehird`> one note on linerider: the red lines are insane
21:02:49 <ehird`> they defy the laws of physics
21:02:56 <ehird`> this makes them infinitely more fun
21:06:48 <oklokok> ehird`: i usually lose with 6-4, but my gf beat the opponent already
21:07:52 <oklokok> wonder if she lied just to annoy me, since i now have to play till i win... :P
21:14:12 <oklokok> okay... the level 2 guy's serves are too hard for me to return xD
21:20:03 <ehird`> do you know of any other online games like that that aren't completely boring?
21:20:37 <oklokok> have you tried tower defence games?
21:20:51 <oklokok> http://dagobah.biz/flash/CurveBall.swf
21:20:58 <oklokok> one of my personal favorites, that one
21:21:21 <ehird`> umm how do you play this
21:22:51 <oklokok> i've designed a 4d version of that, but i have some trouble making 4 dimensional spins realistin :)
21:23:29 <ehird`> that 3d pong is horribly easy
21:23:30 <oklokok> that's pretty much the only 3d game the graphics of which i like
21:23:37 <ehird`> please, post it somewhere
21:23:42 <oklokok> what level did you get to?
21:23:58 <oklokok> a monkey can get on 8, but you need some skill to get on 9th
21:24:04 <oklokok> and i haven't gotten past that
21:24:21 <ehird`> ah, so it gets hard at 8
21:24:25 <ehird`> i thought it was very boring..
21:24:33 <oklokok> but i have a touchpad mouse...
21:24:38 <ehird`> i was hoping for.. a quicker sort of progression in hardness
21:24:48 <oklokok> 1-6 are so easy you can't tell them apart
21:25:34 <oklokok> the progression isn't nice, because the challenge it @ 8 and you have to play a lot of trivial stages to be able to retry it... not that rewarding
21:26:43 <ehird`> i hate how you don't get replenished lives
21:26:48 <ehird`> whereas the opponent does
21:26:59 <oklokok> i never fail before level 8 really
21:27:02 <ehird`> game over on level 7, d'awww.
21:27:09 <ehird`> ok, now let's do that again..
21:28:57 <ehird`> i would very much like to see the 4d version
21:29:05 <oklokok> it's pretty awesome in my head
21:31:08 <ehird`> "Two players compete over the network and wear 3D glasses to see the games full effect."
21:31:11 <ehird`> now that's what i call 3d pong
21:33:31 <oklokok> i'm doing 4th dimension with sound
21:34:57 <oklokok> do you know what happens when you play two sounds simultaneously and one approaches the other in frequency?
21:35:34 <oklokok> i'm gonna use the bee effect to make it clear when to hit the ball
21:36:08 <oklokok> i'm not sure if it's called "the bee effect" in english, but it's pretty descriptive nevertheless
21:36:58 <oklokok> basically you'll have 2 joysticks and move around in a cube using them
21:37:06 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: i think i understand
21:37:17 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: sound 1: 0, sound 2: 100
21:37:21 <ehird`> then, it goes sound 1: 1, sound 2: 99
21:37:26 <oklokok> (i know, one axes would be useless then)
21:37:27 <ehird`> and that is in frequency
21:37:42 <ehird`> presumably, when it's at middle point, you must hit the bat
21:37:46 <ehird`> then the rest of the slide is it going the other way
21:38:32 <Ciaran_H> Ooo. I'm playing that 3D Pong game. My first go and I made it up to level 5.
21:38:39 <oklokok> well, exactly like that, except a bit more logical, there's two frequencies, say 440 and 880 for each of the paddles, and one frequency for the ball
21:39:21 <ehird`> and the ball slides towards the paddle it is travelling towards?
21:39:22 <oklokok> so basically every object has 3d position in the cube shown with its physical location, and it's 4-dimensional "height" shown with the tune it produces
21:39:34 <ehird`> 4d only through sound?
21:39:40 <ehird`> you really need some sort of graphical representation
21:39:47 <oklokok> well, color as well, but that's not as useful.
21:39:48 <Ciaran_H> When you know how, it gets a bit easier. I passed level easily; by putting a curve on the ball as I initially launched it, I got it pastg my opponent every time without them even managing to hit it back.
21:39:51 <ehird`> it'll be much easier to play
21:39:57 <ehird`> and colour is not easy to relate to another dimension
21:40:06 <ehird`> try an inside/outside representation
21:40:11 <oklokok> Ciaran_H: yes, the first easy 6 ones are like that.
21:40:23 <ehird`> oklokok: like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Hypercube.svg
21:41:20 <ehird`> some animation examples:
21:41:23 <ehird`> single rotation - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:8-cell-simple.gif
21:41:29 <ehird`> double rotation - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tesseract.gif
21:41:43 <ehird`> (Of course, imagine it is filled in with a translucent colour like that svg)
21:42:11 <oklokok> you cannot do it by location.
21:42:13 <ehird`> it would be pwnawesome
21:42:52 <oklokok> hmm... you could have the ball be where the camera is located
21:43:11 <ehird`> maybe you could have the camera "outside" of the playing field
21:43:13 <oklokok> actually no, that wouldn't work either.
21:43:20 <ehird`> and have it slightly zoom in/rotate/etc to get the best position
21:44:01 <oklokok> i don't see how a 4d->2d projection would be possible...
21:44:19 <ehird`> i've just given you three examples :)
21:44:28 <ehird`> of course, an option is to make the projection 3d
21:44:34 <ehird`> this means harder coding but easier to represent 4d
21:44:47 <ehird`> alternately, try and model it as best as you can with 2d. you won't get it perfect; but playability is key
21:45:13 <oklokok> the two last ones are the same
21:45:18 <oklokok> and the first i couldn't open
21:45:26 <ehird`> the two last ones are NOT the same
21:45:37 <ehird`> first one - "A 3D projection of an 8-cell performing a simple rotation about a plane which bisects the figure from front-left to back-right and top to bottom."
21:45:42 <ehird`> second one - "A 3D projection of an 8-cell performing a double rotation about two orthogonal planes."
21:45:46 <oklokok> the fact the latter has a 3d-rotation included doesn't really make it different
21:45:51 <ehird`> notice how the second one is spinning in 3 dimensions as well as 4
21:45:56 <ehird`> try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hypercube.svg
21:46:00 <ehird`> that has a preview not in svg
21:46:10 <ehird`> the idea is the latter two's animation with that sort of colouring
21:46:55 <ehird`> it is worth noting that in N-dimensional pong the paddles can only move in (N - 1) dimensions
21:46:57 <oklokok> hmm... if you had the cam always be directioned at the ball, but make the cam stay still
21:47:00 <ehird`> normal pong - up and down
21:47:03 <ehird`> 3d pong - up down left right
21:47:09 <ehird`> 4d pong - up down left right forward backward
21:47:16 <ehird`> so the only thing that has to move 4 dimensionally is the ball
21:47:50 <ehird`> and that camera idea seems good yes
21:47:52 <oklokok> anyway, with that cam thing even 3d ping pong would be almost impossible...
21:48:31 <oklokok> of course, stupid making a 4d game without any weird 4d rotations :P
21:49:23 <ehird`> what about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Glass_tesseract_animation.gif
21:49:30 <ehird`> that combines the shading and the animation
21:49:40 <ehird`> and i honestly think something like that would work fine in a game
21:49:50 <ehird`> minus all the flashy reflections and all that
21:50:37 <oklokok> oh my god... i can't take that beauty anymore
21:52:39 <ehird`> the ball should be a 24-cell doing double rotation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:24-cell.gif
21:52:39 <oklokok> wish i could create graphics like that.
21:53:18 <ehird`> that's done with some sort of 3d program that can do that
21:53:32 <oklokok> yeah, so you could see in which direction it's rotating ;)
21:53:56 <ehird`> how about graphics like 4d rubiks cube: http://www.superliminal.com/cube/mc4dswing.jar
21:53:57 <oklokok> i know, wish i could create that nice 3d graphics with my computer
21:55:52 <ehird`> i mean, like http://www.superliminal.com/cube/mc4dswing.jar more packed, but without the 3d
21:56:47 <oklokok> only 5 ppl in the world have solved the 5-dimension rubik's cube
21:57:39 <oklokok> there's this finnish adolescent who solves the cube with his feet in like a minute
21:57:51 <ehird`> okay, thats 5 dimensional
21:57:52 <ehird`> http://www.superliminal.com/cube/mc4dswing.jar is 4
22:08:00 <oklokok> can you circumvent messenger's stupid smileys if you want other ppl not to see them as well?
22:08:16 <oklokok> like a code for a *raw* ":)"
22:10:33 -!- puzzlet has joined.
22:11:22 <oklokok> i hate those smileys, and i want to ruin the fun for others too
22:22:26 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Success).
22:22:34 <ehird`> i wonder what the most politically correct language is
22:23:07 <ehird`> "There's a type of person known as a 'carrier'. They carry data to other people! They do not go slower depending on who you are, get paid very well, and are happy people!"
22:24:51 <ehird`> is that a joke or serious? :p
22:27:06 <ehird`> hmm. can you emulate "not" with xor, and, or?
22:29:32 <oklokok> x|x=x, x^x=0... so you can take any composite expression of those two and reduce it into either of those
22:30:43 <oklokok> but... can you do it without constants
22:31:18 <oklokok> x|0=0|x=x, x^0=0^x=x, so no, you can't
22:31:41 <oklokok> (you can only make 0 and x out of ^ and |, and you can't make a 1 out of them)
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22:32:57 <ehird`> i updated the yael spec
22:33:01 <ehird`> now you can do reasonable jumps with it
22:33:02 <ehird`> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Yael
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22:33:50 <ehird`> 16 opcodes, and yet you could still use it if you're good with low level stuff
22:34:06 <ehird`> ok, first person to write hello world in the new Yael wins a prize. or i'll do it :)
22:34:16 <ehird`> then, the competition for the music-producing program is back on :)
22:34:22 <ehird`> well, note-slide-producing program really.
22:34:38 <oklokok> i'm not gonna program that blindfold...
22:34:50 <ehird`> hello world is... really quite easy to do in yael.
22:35:02 <ehird`> i'll rewrite the old one :p
22:35:51 <oklokok> i'll program anything with it if someone makes an interpreter... :)
22:35:51 <ehird`> yael needs a way to access the program counter
22:35:57 <ehird`> i'll make an interpreter sometime
22:36:06 <ehird`> should the program counter be in memory or a register
22:36:42 <oklokok> you could waste on for that
22:36:45 <ehird`> since jumping is in bits
22:36:54 <ehird`> you can't store a full program counter,
22:37:24 <ehird`> the registers contain 1 byte
22:37:35 <ehird`> the program+data can be ~255 bytes
22:37:39 <ehird`> and the counter is in bits
22:37:50 <ehird`> and the memory is 8-bit-address-worth, all 1 byte
22:37:52 <oklokok> one register can then store the counter
22:38:11 <ehird`> the counter is in >bits<
22:38:17 <ehird`> but the program can be 255 >bytse<
22:38:26 <ehird`> so you can't fit it into 1 byte.
22:38:53 <ehird`> can you look at the spec, and tell me if the jumping semantics are reasonable?
22:39:03 <ehird`> jumping relatively all the time might suck
22:39:44 <oklokok> If the value in register A equals the value in register B, jump forwards C bits.
22:40:20 <oklokok> "C bits" should be "N bits, where N is the number in register C"
22:40:31 <ehird`> you know what it means
22:40:45 <oklokok> just pointer it out because i'm a mean bastard
22:43:30 <ehird`> is it turing complete as far as 1 byte registers allow?
22:43:35 <ehird`> (you know what i mean)
22:44:22 <oklokok> "If *the value in register A* equals *the value in register B*, jump forwards *C* bits." C bits means.. C bits, not register C's value bits
22:44:32 <oklokok> we should all speak lojban.
22:44:42 <ehird`> I am >not talking< about the definition there!
22:44:48 <ehird`> I mean the >semantics as in how it actually works<
22:44:53 <ehird`> not >how i define it in natural language<
22:44:56 <oklokok> i'm just commenting on what you said earlier
22:45:09 <oklokok> as i'm not here all the time, i have a life you know, like 10 irc windows!
22:45:45 <oklokok> there should be a term for being asm-tc
22:46:07 <ehird`> like, "turing complete as far as the finite address size allows"?
22:46:22 <ehird`> how can it be turing complete?
22:46:25 <ehird`> you can't use the value twice
22:46:32 <ehird`> the value can only apply to one instruction in code
22:46:50 <ehird`> after that, it jumps to something else
22:47:02 <ehird`> AND you can't access the program counter to make it work relative to the current position
22:47:24 <ehird`> the jumps are relative to the start of the jumping instruction
22:47:46 <ehird`> BLAH(1011 | 1100)AAABBBCCCBLAH
22:48:00 <ehird`> the ^ is where "the register that C references contains 0" would jump to
22:48:16 <oklokok> you prolly have every jump have just two possible branchings, where the other one is "don't jump", in a real program written in that
22:48:40 <oklokok> i'm not seeing the problem yet, let me think a while.
22:49:13 <oklokok> "(ehird`) you can't use the value twice" <<< *the value*?
22:49:26 <ehird`> you can't use the same "value-in-C" twice
22:49:32 <ehird`> because it will jump to a different place./
22:49:46 <ehird`> because the jumps are >RELATIVE to the start of the current instruction<
22:49:48 <oklokok> if jumping from the same line
22:49:55 <ehird`> but jumping from elsewhere.
22:50:03 <oklokok> ...then you use a different CCC...
22:50:03 <ehird`> and you can't correct it because you can't access the program counter
22:50:22 <ehird`> but what if you have a CCC passed to you?
22:50:25 <ehird`> an address to jump to.
22:50:28 <oklokok> you precalculate those, i don't see the problem in having a different one for each jump-start-location
22:50:29 <ehird`> and you want to have it work on multiple lines
22:50:33 <ehird`> this is turing-complete-threatening i'm sure
22:51:13 <oklokok> you just need loops for tc-ness...
22:51:23 <oklokok> you don't need to be able to pass a pointer-to-code around
22:51:29 <ehird`> yes - exactly, you can have no "continue" or "break"
22:51:40 <ehird`> since you will only be able to do "next iteration of loop", at a certain instruction location
22:51:51 <oklokok> that's nice if you want continuations, but hey, no one's gonna implement aything like that anyway :)
22:51:53 <ehird`> and there is no way to correct it without simply manually subtracting the line difference
22:52:21 <ehird`> what about functions??
22:52:26 <ehird`> this will make functions almost impossible
22:52:47 <ehird`> this isn't meant to be very very hard to use
22:54:19 <oklokok> this is exactly what happens when you don't align by bytes :)
22:56:30 <oklokok> you could have 4 bit jumps and 16 registers...
22:56:53 <oklokok> then you could have functions if you fit them close enough to their caller :)
22:57:13 <oklokok> because you could jump half the memory in one go
22:57:55 <ehird`> aligning by bytes -- boo hiss! i want small instructions
22:58:31 <ehird`> how about we'll test its usefuless with the competition:
22:58:33 <oklokok> well, you could align by 4-bits, and have only slightly bigger opcodes
22:58:34 <ehird`> have two voices A and B
22:58:51 <ehird`> when you're going to play a note, play A's note, then B's note, then A's note, then B's note, very quickly
22:59:11 <ehird`> let A's pitch be <minimum audible> and B's be <maximum audible>
22:59:27 <ehird`> forever: play a note. decrease A's pitch, increase B's.
22:59:39 <ehird`> When A reaches the maximum and B reaches the minimum, restart the process in reverse, etc.
22:59:54 <ehird`> So, you have a slide going up...down...up...down with two voices at once, each going the opposite direction
23:00:03 <oklokok> that is easy with just looping.
23:00:59 <ehird`> shush this is asm territory little schemer :p
23:01:18 <oklokok> if you added the 8 registers, you'd only have a bit bigger opcodes, and the program counter would fit a register etc...
23:01:41 <oklokok> (though you'd have a limit of 128 bytes for the actual program then...)
23:04:33 <ehird`> i still think the best test of the instruction set's suitibility is the music program.
23:09:01 <oklokok> 0000 000 00000000, 0000 001 11111111, 0000 002 00000001, 0000 003 xxxxxxxx, 1101 002 000, 0101 000 002, 0110 001 002, 1100 000 000 003
23:09:45 <oklokok> god it's hard probramming assembly in an irc window when people keep flashing the taskbar on my writing with their messengers :P
23:11:18 <ehird`> oklokok: now find out x, and optionally write comments :p
23:11:20 <oklokok> ehird`: i don't know the spesifics of the sound output, so i didn't include delay there, but it's pretty triv, also i didn't feel like calculating the value of 003, since i'm lazy
23:11:37 <ehird`> wait what, there is no delay
23:11:39 <oklokok> i'd prolly make a macro system for that before playing more with that
23:11:44 <ehird`> the register contains the memory system which is:
23:11:50 <ehird`> which is, starting from it:
23:12:08 <ehird`> same as win32's "Beep" function.
23:12:35 <oklokok> oh, then you'd need a few lines to put those in the memory first
23:12:47 <ehird`> but.. you have to change the pitch each time
23:12:52 <oklokok> but anyway, it's a trivial isomorphy with that code
23:12:56 <ehird`> if you commented your code i could perhaps point out where you went wrong :)
23:13:16 <oklokok> i have 0 255 1 254 2 253 3 252 etc. progression
23:13:17 <lament> crap, now this neural net library doesn't seem to work
23:13:33 <pikhq> Wait. . . Are you guys devising an assembly language with output as *notes*?
23:13:45 <lament> i shove stuff into the neural net, and it always outputs 0 :(
23:13:51 <sp3tt> it should output sheet music
23:13:55 <oklokok> pikhq: there's notes and normal output
23:14:12 <pikhq> Sounds like x86 when you assume a PC speaker, then.
23:15:38 <oklokok> hmm... okay, i don't remember x86 pc speaker spesifics... it always has *a* frequency it's using for the sounds, and you can pause it by putting 0?
23:17:49 <ehird`> it is exactly x86 speaker
23:18:07 <ehird`> please, read the info for the port!.
23:18:25 <sp3tt> 255! is a really big number!!
23:18:25 <ehird`> considering its semantics are identical to win32's Beep function WHICH USES THE PC SPEAKER, it might just be identical!
23:18:45 <oklokok> i somewhat feel the asm OUT in x86 doesn't lookup anything from the memory...
23:19:10 <ehird`> what do you mean, beep != OUT
23:19:18 <oklokok> OUT, the x86 version of that.
23:19:19 <ehird`> now please read the documentation of Yael
23:19:25 <ehird`> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Yael all of it :p
23:19:29 <ehird`> then you'll understand, the beep
23:19:35 <ehird`> because really it is quite simple
23:19:41 <ehird`> i could draw a helpful diagram?
23:19:42 <oklokok> everyone understands it, i'm just asking how it works in asm
23:20:14 <ehird`> if you understood it. your code would be right :)
23:20:19 <ehird`> but you're wrapping at 256
23:20:31 <oklokok> as i said, trivial isomorphism, thus no need to change it.
23:20:49 <ehird`> everything has a trivial isomorphism to the null program! i win!
23:21:14 <sp3tt> isomorphism on programs?
23:21:22 <oklokok> i have the semantics right, you just need to put those values in the memory and give that memory address...
23:21:28 <oklokok> instead of the actual values
23:21:58 <oklokok> so you'd think i could just put them there... but no, i'm just that lazy
23:22:09 <ehird`> how about reading the Yael spec
23:22:12 <ehird`> and seeing if your program is right
23:22:15 <ehird`> because it's probably not :p
23:23:05 <ehird`> i doubt it's a "trivial isomorphism" to the correct one either :)
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23:24:49 <oklokok> i'm quite sure i'll run out of code soace.
23:27:17 <ehird`> i don't know why everyone's saying "omg i'll run out of codespace
23:30:22 <ihope_> Everyone's saying "omg I'll run out of codespace"?
23:31:57 <oklokok> ehird`: big or small endian?
23:32:28 <ehird`> oklokok: big-end-first :)
23:39:23 <oklokok> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p352621531.txt
23:40:10 <ehird`> "if reach limits, reverse direction"
23:40:24 <ehird`> i have to go now - please send me a memoserv msg if you get it done
23:40:26 <ehird`> or put it in the topic
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00:00:05 <oklokok> blargh, this is pretty tedious stuff manually :PP
00:00:46 <oklokok> i'd really like to debug the program sofar before adding direction reversing...
00:00:52 <oklokok> not that he's here anymore
00:07:41 <oklokok> especially when writing mnemoniclessly
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00:47:43 <Figs> !bf ++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>++++++.------------.
00:48:08 <Figs> did I get the wrong command?
00:48:51 <oklokok> >>> bf ++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>++++++.------------.
00:49:12 <GregorR> Or, more accurately, EgoBot still manages to take 100% of my CPU when you jerks force it to.
00:49:23 <Figs> >>> bf +++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>++++++.------------.
00:49:36 <lament> GregorR: so 1) renice it 2) limit its cpu usage?
00:49:47 <sp3tt> 3) detect infinite loops
00:49:53 <GregorR> lament: I've done both of those.
00:50:01 <GregorR> I haven't limited its absolute usage.
00:50:28 <Figs> >>> bf +++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>++++++.------------.---.+++++++++.
00:50:36 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: Got all those, it just still allows infinite loops.
00:51:12 -!- EgoBot has joined.
00:51:22 <GregorR> oklokok: What bsmntbombdood just said is not renice.
00:51:27 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: I didn't write the interpreters.
00:51:36 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: However, I am doing that :P
00:51:46 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: But with eight running, they still collectively fuck up my system X-P
00:51:49 <Figs> >>> bf +++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>++++++.------------.---.+++++++++.>++++[>++++<-]>[<++>-]<.<.
00:52:14 <GregorR> oklokok: Oh, go get a real OS and look it up yourself :P
00:52:51 <lament> GregorR: because you should limit collective usage, duh :)
00:53:04 <oklokok> i thought it was an english word i don't know
00:53:11 <GregorR> lament: Clearly - but I haven't found a good way to do that when I'm just system()'ing.
00:53:19 <Figs> >>> bf ++++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>+.---------.
00:53:34 <oklokok> but indeed, unix prolly has stuff like that
00:53:35 <GregorR> [well, not system()'ing, but fork+execing, same idea]
00:53:36 <Figs> >>> bf ++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>+.---------.
00:54:07 <EgoBot> realloc: Cannot allocate memory
00:54:08 <Figs> no ololobot pm?
00:54:11 <Figs> >>> bf +++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>+.---------.
00:54:39 <lament> GregorR: i don't know either :)
00:55:09 <Figs> >>> bf +++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>+.---------.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.<---.++++++++++++.
00:55:15 <oklokok> get a real os and that's easy to do
00:55:18 <GregorR> I gave it maximum two minutes CPU time, but I'm also limiting it to 33% CPU, so I guess it has six minutes time :P
00:55:40 <GregorR> oklokok: Name one. And no, it's not even close to possible in Windows.
00:55:44 <Figs> >>> bf +++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>+.---------.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.<---.<++++++++++++.
00:55:57 <oklokok> my opinion is there isn't one
00:56:20 <Sukoshi> Which is why he uses Windows, because it's obviously as close to the real one as can be ;D
00:56:24 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/slox.php < my current solution
00:56:30 <Figs> >>> bf +++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>+.---------.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.
00:56:39 <Figs> +++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>+.---------.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.<.
00:56:43 <Figs> >>> bf +++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>+.---------.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.<.
00:56:49 <oklokok> i use both unix and windows, unix is better but my laptop feels nice on my lap.
00:57:11 * GregorR 's laptop runs GNU/Linux *shrugs*
00:57:40 <Sukoshi> So can our EgoBot crashing ability break slox, GregorR ?
00:57:54 <Figs> >>> bf +++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>.>++++++++[>++++<-]>.<<.
00:58:13 <Figs> trying to figure out how to write "of course"
00:58:15 <GregorR> Sukoshi: No - but it runs one slox per process, so three processes = 100% CPU
00:58:21 <Figs> but I sux0r :P
00:59:06 <oklokok> GregorR: can't you just store the pids and renice when it opens new processes?
00:59:36 <GregorR> oklokok: niceness doesn't actually limit CPU usage, it just changes priority.
00:59:48 <oklokok> how do you change cpu usage then?
01:00:00 <GregorR> I want my room not to be so hot from my P4 :P
01:00:29 <GregorR> That BF should be close to dying now.
01:00:31 <pikhq> GregorR: Then get something other than a P4, dummy! :p
01:00:44 <GregorR> pikhq: Good thing I have giant piles of money lying around.
01:00:48 <Sukoshi> I think GregorR wants his room to be hot because of himself.
01:00:58 <GregorR> oklokok: http://www.codu.org/slox.php
01:01:00 <Figs> >>> bf +++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>+.[>+>+<<-]>>---------.>++++++++[>++++<-]>.<<---.
01:01:34 <Figs> >>> bf +++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>+.[>+>+<<-]>>---------.>++++++++[>++++<-]>.<<---.<.++++++.---.+.--------------.
01:01:49 <oklokok> GregorR: why doesn't what i said apply then?
01:02:06 <oklokok> if that can change cpu usage via pid
01:02:57 <GregorR> oklokok: Oh, I see what you're saying. Adjust such that everything is at .3/<number of pids>
01:04:12 <Figs> wow, what a waste of my time
01:04:20 <Figs> I can't even post it as a comment
01:04:33 <Figs> ] is disallowed
01:04:42 <Figs> did you ever play my song...?
01:05:01 <oklokok> i was on camp... and i've been idling for a week now :\
01:05:16 <Figs> are you ever going to?
01:05:19 <Figs> or did you give up?
01:05:52 <oklokok> if i printed the score, it shouldn't be that hard, it's just a bit tedious reading from the screenm
01:06:38 <oklokok> i can play most parts though, i just don't remember all of it without the score
01:07:17 <oklokok> there's the one quite mean part in the middle that i might need to work a bit
01:07:53 <oklokok> pieces, not people though!
01:08:14 <Figs> http://cid-c86a72bd35ce57db.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Transfer/5.mid
01:08:23 <oklokok> it's not the song, it's all the cigarettes you're smoking in my head
01:08:35 <oklokok> you're like the mafioso from hell
01:08:42 <Figs> too bad I don't smoke
01:08:57 * Figs rots in the corner for a while
01:09:23 <Figs> new piece I just wrote today
01:09:31 <Figs> I know it still needs work
01:10:09 <oklokok> that's a lot more impressive
01:10:43 <Figs> I know the entire song is playable though
01:11:06 <oklokok> sounds easier to play than the other one
01:11:12 <Figs> I'm sure it is
01:11:54 <Figs> it's loosely based on Sonata form
01:12:33 <Figs> C major - C minor - G major
01:12:39 <Figs> the three sections
01:12:59 <Figs> the second theme should remind you a bit of Mozart's Sonata No. 16 in C
01:13:13 <Figs> since that's where I got the idea to write a sonata-ish song
01:13:22 <Figs> http://www.kunstderfuge.com/-/midi.asp?file=mozart/piano_sonata_545_1_(c)oguri.mid
01:14:09 <oklokok> that change to minor was the thing i was most impressed by, it's a bit less impressive now that i know you did it knowingly :)
01:14:50 <Figs> it should be more impressive that I did it knowingly
01:14:57 <oklokok> i don't do much ...non-polyphonic music on piano nowadays
01:15:09 <Figs> I'm trying to arrange this one
01:15:23 <Figs> but it doesn't seem to be quite sonata like any more when I do
01:16:00 <oklokok> not imo, i think it's pretty impressive if you'd copy a trick like that from classical music without noticing it.
01:16:46 <oklokok> http://www.kunstderfuge.com/-/midi.asp?file=mozart/piano_sonata_545_1_(c)oguri.mid <<< doesn't work
01:19:19 <Figs> copy and paste
01:23:27 <Figs> http://cid-c86a72bd35ce57db.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Transfer/Sonata3tmp.mid
01:23:48 <Figs> you can see what I mean
01:27:55 <Figs> how is the melody though?
01:29:00 <Figs> you like the additional relative minor extention to the theme?
01:29:12 <oklokok> (the backround is pretty zelda, that is)
01:35:07 <oklokok> damn i gotta go sleep some.
01:36:57 <Figs> oklokok: Go sleep then :D
01:37:34 <Figs> you're talking about mine, right, and not the Mozart one?
01:37:46 * Figs is just checking
01:38:09 <Figs> (the ones on Windows Live are mine)
01:39:35 <Figs> I haven't quite got a game together yet to do the music for
01:39:49 <Figs> but I have some ideas once I do
01:41:24 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm in the process of building a series of libraries and game engines to help speed up game development with Java- a couple demos of what I'm working on are here http://rodger.nonlogic.org/games/CRPG/ and here http://rodger.nonlogic.org/games/steamlock/
01:42:15 <Figs> I must warn you though I have a tendancy to get side tracked :P
01:42:38 <Figs> I've got like a dozen projects :P
01:42:46 <Figs> well, more like half a dozen
01:42:51 <Figs> I'm not *that* bad (yet)
01:42:52 <RodgerTheGreat> but I figure music, like art, is something that can be slowly made a little at a time as a game is developed
01:43:21 <Figs> but if you're just sitting around trying to build an engine... :P
01:43:27 <RodgerTheGreat> if you could stir yourself to make a track every few weeks, I could furnish games around them
01:43:43 <oklokok> i have over 100 projects unfinished easily :<
01:44:01 <Figs> I'm probably getting close to 1000
01:44:11 <RodgerTheGreat> my "projects" folder tells me I have about 18 in the works
01:44:14 <Figs> if you count every time I start a song and don't finish it
01:44:48 <oklokok> if you count in *all* the stuff i have not finished, then i might be close to 1000 as well...
01:44:54 <oklokok> i just meant programming projects
01:45:05 <Figs> I'd probably actually finish a game except that I'm terrible at pixel art
01:45:40 <Figs> I'm actually working on some projects that will be very useful for a game engine later
01:46:00 <RodgerTheGreat> well, even if we can't share code, we can still share ideas and assets
01:46:33 <RodgerTheGreat> right now, I'm building a reusable scripting engine that's easy to splice into an existing game engine
01:46:46 <Figs> that's kind of what I'm doing, except not... :P
01:47:12 <Figs> I wrote basically a runtime defined class a couple days ago
01:47:13 <RodgerTheGreat> if you're interested in poking around at what I've completed, take a look at this: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/games/CogEngine/CogEngineA01.zip
01:47:42 <Figs> and I'm working on a dynamic table class right now
01:47:59 <Figs> I have a basic parser done, but it needs a lot of work to really be useable
01:48:08 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm basically implementing a modified version of FORTH with a system for extending the language with class-specific functions
01:48:48 <Figs> the way my code actually seems, it's like I'm building a scripting language inside C++ :P
01:49:05 <lament> you're implementing forth in java?
01:49:21 <Figs> and I'm not crazier?
01:49:56 <lament> but... why not just embed a real language?
01:50:09 <lament> i'm sure there's foo-in-jvm for some useful values of foo
01:50:20 <lament> sure, but you have to write it instead of concentrating on the game
01:50:54 <RodgerTheGreat> anybody can glue together a bunch of chunks of the Java API and call it good
01:51:28 <RodgerTheGreat> and this certainly isn't the only thing I'm working on
01:51:32 <Figs> While I tend to agree with you, it's also a big reason why most people never finish things... :)
01:51:47 <lament> yes, "reinventing the wheel" is.
01:51:48 <pikhq> if(-1 < 0) exit(0); // Can you tell me the scenarios where this *won't* exit?
01:52:25 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: no, when it's for fun it's still a reason why people never finish things.
01:52:40 <Figs> 1) when the code is completely skipped by, example, another block around it
01:53:36 <Figs> I'll let you know if I can think of a #2)
01:54:20 <pikhq> So it's: if(mem_offset < 0) ERROR("Went left of the array.\n");
01:54:37 <pikhq> And my printfs tell me that mem_offset == -1.
01:54:47 <Figs> rafb.net/paste
01:54:59 <Figs> let's see what you got :D
01:55:06 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/bfi.c
01:55:22 <Figs> that works too
01:56:07 <Figs> where's your error?
01:56:11 <Figs> or not working bit?
01:57:46 <lament> i'd look at it if the mime type was set correctly! :)
01:58:01 <lament> (firefox doesn't want to display it)
01:58:16 <Figs> mem_offset is an unsigned value
01:58:35 <Figs> that's reason #2, I guess
01:59:05 <Figs> don't feel too stupid, that one got me too for a few minutes.
01:59:17 <pikhq> Now to see what the other bug is.
01:59:26 <Figs> what other bug?
01:59:32 <pikhq> The program I was testing it on, in egobfi8, doesn't go left in the array.
01:59:38 <pikhq> Well, doesn't go that far left.
02:00:09 <Figs> if you go too far left, then effectively, you end up at 0xFFFFFFFF I think, assuming 32 bit
02:00:18 <oklokok> (03:53:07) (pikhq) So it's: if(mem_offset < 0) ERROR("Went left of the array.\n");
02:00:18 <oklokok> (03:53:24) (pikhq) And my printfs tell me that mem_offset == -1.
02:00:29 <oklokok> hah, i figured it out without seeing the code :)
02:00:47 <pikhq> Figs: Yeah, that's how I found out that that was even an issue. . .
02:01:00 <pikhq> Believe it or not, realloc blows up on something insane like that.
02:01:30 <Figs> oklokok, you're supposed to be sleeping :P
02:02:50 <Figs> why not just go C++ and use a deque?
02:03:04 <Figs> then you can go left as much as you want
02:03:22 <oklokok> you sure this isn't my dream?
02:03:25 <Figs> sleep chatting, eh, oklokok? :P
02:03:28 <Figs> I've done it before
02:03:34 <Figs> dream chats...
02:03:39 <oklokok> i did just own you all by seeing through that error like a glass window
02:03:41 <Figs> I'm pretty sure this isn't your dream though
02:04:04 <Figs> re-read what you just said
02:04:12 <Figs> if it still says the same thing
02:04:24 <oklokok> that trick doesn't work for me, i've tried it in my sleep
02:04:24 <Figs> that's one way to test if you're asleep
02:04:30 <Figs> ok, then pull your finger
02:04:37 <Figs> and believe it will stretch
02:04:42 <Figs> WILL it to stretch
02:04:55 <Figs> it's not stretching, huh? :P
02:05:41 <Figs> ok, you can be asleep pikhq. But neither of us.
02:05:58 <Figs> RodgerTheGreat, are you interested in doing graphics for a platformer, by chance?
02:06:11 <pikhq> I think that what's in memory does not at all match the actual file.
02:06:28 <pikhq> I get to 2053 in the "to_interp" string. . .
02:06:35 <pikhq> Printf says that's a ].
02:06:47 <pikhq> My file says that it's a *completely* different character.
02:07:06 <Figs> explorer/adventure
02:07:29 <Figs> I have a few ideas for it, but not the full thing yet
02:08:48 <pikhq> Can you see anything else that's wrong in my bfi.c
02:09:00 <pikhq> Preferably before I stab gcc.
02:10:36 <Figs> nothing comes to mind
02:10:42 <Figs> doesn't mean it's right though :P
02:11:05 <pikhq> In fact, it's 100% *guaranteed* to be wrong. ;)
02:12:01 <Figs> now you've got me wanting to write a BF interpreter
02:12:17 <Figs> I shall not give in just yet
02:12:24 <Figs> I will wait till I finish my new parser
02:12:27 <Figs> and do that as a test
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06:22:57 <pikhq> (in conclusion, I hate C)
06:23:28 <Figs> >>> bf +++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>+.[>+>+<<-]>>---------.>++++++++[>++++<-]>.<<---.<.++++++.---.+.--------------.
06:23:40 <pikhq> When a language makes you wonder "Why the hell is my *Brainfuck* interpreter not working", I tend to hate it.
06:24:15 <Figs> good luck with that
06:24:42 <Figs> write a C compiler in BF!
06:25:09 <Figs> ... and then... run it with C?
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06:33:12 <Figs> >>> bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
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06:34:05 <pikhq> >>> bf ,[.,]<<<Hello, World!
06:34:21 <pikhq> >>> bf ,[.,] <<<Hello, World!
06:34:32 <Figs> don't you need a shift?
06:34:45 <Figs> I thought you were doing something else :P
06:35:05 <Figs> >>> bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
06:36:58 <Figs> how would you write a BF program to convert a byte to a printable representation?
06:39:08 <pikhq> Take a look at my atoi macro.
06:52:05 <Figs> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_BASIC
06:58:48 <Figs> I'm using google as a spell checker
06:59:58 <Figs> And it suggests "indiscriminant" instead of "indiscriminate"?
07:00:13 <Figs> indiscriminant isn't a word O.o
07:00:51 <oerjan> so it clearly _could_ be a word
07:01:13 <Figs> Webster gives me nothing
07:01:54 <Figs> and discriminant only seems to be a word if you're talking about math
07:02:02 <Figs> (I can't find any other uses)
07:02:11 <oerjan> sure, that's where i know it from
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07:03:04 <oerjan> google gives 82000 hits for indiscriminant vs. 4160000 for indiscriminate
07:04:14 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/blog/?comment=20070814014954 [now with photo evidence]
07:04:37 <Figs> indiscriminant is a
07:04:44 <Figs> sorry for the break.
07:05:04 <Figs> My enter key finger got anxious, I guess...
07:05:49 <oerjan> the chances are obviously 1 in a million, which means it will happen 9 times out of 10
07:08:42 <Figs> which hat are you wearing today?
07:08:51 <GregorR> As recorded on choosemyhat.com ;P
07:08:56 <Figs> the green one?
07:09:07 <Figs> I'm already there
07:09:15 <Figs> I just wasn't sure what time zone you were in
07:09:25 <Figs> my memory slips
07:09:40 <GregorR> Well, unless it changes by 1AM when the votes are locked in, the Tyrolean.
07:10:11 <Figs> I vote red hat
07:10:17 * Figs doesn't know the name
07:10:41 <Figs> Fedora, I think
07:10:46 <GregorR> I actually meant "please vote for those days that have no votes" :P
07:10:47 <Figs> judging by the image name
07:11:26 * Figs has voted GreenFez for wednesday
07:12:52 <Figs> I vote Grey Fedora for monday the 20th!
07:14:08 <Figs> what do you do if there's a tie?
07:17:14 <Figs> I guess I didn't make a good vote then
07:17:26 <Figs> *sees note on red fedora*
07:25:02 <Figs> http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070813-investors-bailing-on-sco-stock-scox-plummets.html
07:49:01 <oklokok> >>> bf ,[.,] <<< Hello, World!
07:49:07 <oklokok> pikhq: you need the spaces
07:49:19 <oklokok> because that'd be even more dangerous if not.
07:49:46 <Figs> heading off for a little while
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08:15:31 <oklokok> headed off for 7 seconds there, huh?
08:15:49 <oklokok> good you warned, i might've gotten worried ;)
08:16:20 <oerjan> er, he joined first, then left
08:17:11 <oklokok> (10:15:47) (+Tietovisa) Pelaajalla oklopol on nyt 6444 pistett ja hn on sijalla 9th/1009, edelln Juk_Juk pisteill 7064.
08:17:19 <oklokok> also, perfect time to go to school ->
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11:45:34 <ehird`> damn people who don't register their nicks
11:59:28 <Ciaran_H> I was about to say that I haven't registered mine, then I realised I'm on FreeNode, so I actually have. (for some reason I initially thought this was another IRC network)
12:12:40 <ehird`> poiuy_qwert isn't registered
12:12:42 <ehird`> so i can't send a memo
12:13:08 <Ciaran_H> Who owns clog? I tried to register for ircbrowse yesterday but I haven't had an email yet.
12:14:27 <oerjan> oh, i'm sure their email pipes are just, you know ...
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16:05:13 <RodgerTheGreat> I've semi-completed a little scripting language I began yesterday
16:05:30 <RodgerTheGreat> lemme pastebin a fibonacci sequence program I wrote for it...
16:11:47 <ehird`> did you perhaps base it on forth :p
16:16:43 <oklokok> i have absolutely no idea how that works
16:18:08 <oklokok> does glass have inheritance?
16:21:28 <ihope_> RodgerTheGreat: what does pushdown do?
16:21:53 <RodgerTheGreat> it pushes the value on the top of the stack to the bottom of the stack
16:24:49 <ihope_> Is there a way to pull it back to the top?
16:28:08 <ihope_> And to push it down only a certain number of spots?
16:28:38 <ehird`> oklokok: how is 4d pong going
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18:43:03 <lament> does anybody know a working neural net library?
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20:51:15 <ehird`> wow, it sure is ages since i've been on this imac
20:51:20 <ehird`> i forgot how... silent... it is
20:51:48 <ehird`> suddenly.. i wonder where my personal 24/7 helicopter launch went..
20:52:18 <ehird`> and who laminated all this screen text..
20:56:27 <bsmntbombdood> i've yet to understand back propagation neural networks
20:56:39 <ehird`> i've yet to understand THE ESSENCE OF COOKIES
20:57:52 <lament> i've yet to understand why this neural net library JUST DOESNT FRICKING WORK :(
20:57:56 <ehird`> hey, what's this? A C COMPILER THAT ACTUALLY WORKS?
20:59:24 <ehird`> hey, what's this? my actual full music library? amazing.
20:59:30 <ehird`> why did i use the pc :/
21:02:19 -!- Svenstaro has quit.
21:02:59 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: I would recommend using an auxiliary stack rather than moving things to the bottom of the stack
21:03:34 <RodgerTheGreat> it's not horribly expensive if I keep track of start and end sentinels on my stack
21:07:10 * SimonRC thinks that could be a little slow
21:21:46 <SimonRC> "There is no silver bullet, but there are plenty of blancmange ones."
21:22:35 <ehird`> there's a PLATINUM BULLET!
21:22:47 <ehird`> it just requires solving the halting problem..
21:23:01 <SimonRC> (Just because a good language choice will not make a problem magically easier doesn't mean that a bad language choice can't make it magically harder.)
21:23:50 <GregorR> dwimlang makes problems easier.
21:24:12 <SimonRC> does it handle requirements gathering
21:25:16 <GregorR> With code such as "Do my laundry" and "Tell me if this program halts"
21:25:39 <ehird`> So it's like superturing instant IRP
21:26:35 <GregorR> You don't even have to be capable of fully articulating the problem.
21:26:47 <GregorR> It's capable of inferring and Doing What You Mean.
21:26:59 <ehird`> "run the best program ever"
21:27:22 <ehird`> "make... me a sandwhich"
21:27:24 <SimonRC> find the purpose of the unives
21:27:44 <SimonRC> no, that is a the Answer to the Question
21:28:13 <SimonRC> remember, the question is probably "what is six times seven?"
21:46:28 <SimonRC> ehird`: If you think that 6*9 is the right Question then you didn't read the book properly.
21:47:09 <SimonRC> Ford specifically speculates that the arrival of the Golgafrinchams has slightly upset the Earth Program.
21:47:26 <SimonRC> right, now for a better question:
21:47:41 <lament> should i skip the first two days of classes at university so i can go to mexico?
21:47:50 <SimonRC> Where did the readout of the final result occur?
21:48:30 <SimonRC> It is strongly hinted that the Answer was emmitted in a certain way, soon after the Earth was replaced.
21:52:05 <SimonRC> She mentions to Arthur a sudden revelation while sitting in a café.
21:52:22 <ehird`> Fenchurch was the one who "got" the answer
21:52:40 <SimonRC> and she mentions it to Arthur
21:52:47 <ehird`> Also, the upsetting the earth program stuff doesn't hold... Arthur isn't part of Earth...
21:53:10 <ehird`> No... He's a descendant of the aliens who crashed there
21:53:45 <ehird`> Just trips off the tounge
21:53:50 <SimonRC> but that only caused the program to produce slightly the wrong answer
21:54:03 <SimonRC> because the rest of the Earth was as it is supposed to be
21:54:25 <SimonRC> also, Arthur is from a time a few minutes before the Answer was due to b produced
21:54:43 <ehird`> No, author could not have the question in his brain.
21:54:49 <ehird`> Only the organic parts of Earth have it.
21:54:55 <ehird`> Well, only the organic parts recieve the computation
21:55:02 <ehird`> And there's none left that are sentient; obviously
21:55:12 <ehird`> The golablahs killed them off by cutting down forests
21:55:29 <ehird`> And... well; maybe I'm interpreting the book differently than you
21:56:13 <SimonRC> I assumed that the Earth as a whole is doing the computing, and living is the method by which many of the parts communicate
21:56:59 <ehird`> I thought that the whole "and living organisms form part of the computation process" bit meant that Earth spawned living organisms which were part of it
21:57:02 <SimonRC> If you replace one part (ape-descendants) with another one almost the same (Golgafrinchams), you still get roughly the right answer
21:57:08 <ehird`> not "oh we just send a radio signal to anyone in range"
21:57:44 <SimonRC> "living is the method by which many of the parts communicate"
21:58:02 <ehird`> that isn't how i read it personally
21:58:33 <SimonRC> the bastard upped and died so we can't ask him
21:59:23 <ehird`> "You want to know answers? Haha! Try that... when I'm DEAD!@
21:59:25 <ehird`> what use is that, really
22:00:13 <SimonRC> The last one is even better. That fecking bird drives the whole plot forward by following an instruction he isn't given until the end of the book.
22:00:23 <SimonRC> And we don;t even see him being given it!
22:00:30 <ehird`> I honestly can't remember the last book.
22:00:49 <ehird`> I only remember the ending
22:01:11 <SimonRC> presumably, Jeltz said near the end, "Destroy the Earth, and make sure it stays destroyed."
22:01:44 <ehird`> Actually the last book made little sense to me
22:01:57 <ehird`> i understood about 50% of it
22:01:58 <SimonRC> It takes a couple of readings
22:02:07 <ehird`> the rest of the books were fine
22:02:21 <ehird`> but the last was like 10 2001spaceoddysseys
22:02:32 <SimonRC> That is the problem with the Bird. It responds to things before we find out what they are. And it does so in very subtle ways.
22:03:07 <ehird`> i'm sorry, it is ages since i read the series for the last time
22:03:35 <SimonRC> Everything it does is designed to get all the relevent people onto the Earth(s) and make sure that every Earth gets destroyed somehow.
22:04:27 <SimonRC> The one we see is destroyed by the race of aliens who forgot who they were
22:04:59 <SimonRC> quite possibly the asteroid strike that caused that was engineered by the Bird, because...
22:05:47 <ehird`> i think i'll continue understanding the previous books
22:05:51 <ehird`> none of this makes much sense :p
22:05:51 <SimonRC> not only did it cuase them to get lost and become motivated to blow up the Earth, but their absense from a certain war is what causes Trillian to go off an report on that war. (IIRC)
22:06:50 <SimonRC> Trillian mentions the missing ship when she is arguing with Random
22:19:45 -!- GregorR has changed nick to _D6Gregor1RFeZi.
22:36:51 <bsmntbombdood> ~exec self.register_raw(r"^:(\S+)!\S+ PRIVMSG #esoteric :(.*)", lambda x, y: bot.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%s says %s" % (y.group(1), y.group(2))))
22:45:23 <ehird`> bsmnt_bot says ehird` says aaa
22:45:24 <bsmnt_bot> ehird` says bsmnt_bot says ehird` says aaa
22:45:30 <ehird`> bsmnt_bot says ehird` says bsmnt_bot says ehird` says aaa
22:45:30 <bsmnt_bot> ehird` says bsmnt_bot says ehird` says bsmnt_bot says ehird` says aaa
22:46:26 <lament> ~exec bot.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will stop flooding.")
22:46:27 <bsmnt_bot> lament says ~exec bot.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will stop flooding.")
22:47:23 <lament> ~exec bot._raw, bot.raw = bot.raw, (lambda x:0)
22:47:24 <bsmnt_bot> lament says ~exec bot._raw, bot.raw = bot.raw, (lambda x:0)
22:48:17 <lament> so quiet all of a sudden :)
22:50:19 <lament> yes, this is truly tragic
22:52:29 <ehird`> ~exec print >>sys.stdout, "HELLO WORLD"
22:52:39 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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22:52:45 <ehird`> isn't stdout $channel?
22:53:10 <ehird`> ~exec self.raw = lambda x: self.raw(x)
22:53:24 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:53:32 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined.
22:53:42 <sp3tt> will python allow that?
22:54:05 <sp3tt> self.raw = lamba x: self.raw(x)
22:54:13 <sp3tt> but it will raise an exception, right?
22:54:27 <ehird`> it will eventually crap and run out of stack space
22:54:42 <ehird`> unless you use stackless python
22:54:44 <sp3tt> python can recurse but it will raise a RecursionError (?)
22:54:51 <bsmntbombdood> you get a RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded
22:54:53 <sp3tt> maximmum recursion depth exceeded
22:54:54 <ehird`> or have a weird tail-call optimization-implementing interp
22:55:48 <lament> tail-call optimization isn't at all weird; the python compiler is just really stupid
22:55:58 <ehird`> it's weird for a python interp
22:56:07 <bsmnt_bot> AttributeError: IRCbot instance has no attribute '_raw'
22:56:23 <ehird`> because no python interp does it
22:56:31 <ehird`> ~exec sys.setrecursionlimit(0)
22:56:32 <bsmnt_bot> ValueError: recursion limit must be positive
22:56:38 <ehird`> ~exec sys.setrecursionlimit(0.1)
22:56:38 <bsmnt_bot> ValueError: recursion limit must be positive
22:56:41 <ehird`> ~exec sys.setrecursionlimit(1)
22:56:45 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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22:57:09 <ehird`> sp3tt: yeah, it dies just beginning recursion
22:57:18 <sp3tt> fractional iteration =)
22:57:29 <sp3tt> fractional calculus ftw
22:57:31 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: you can't call ANYTHING from anything else?
22:57:44 <ehird`> i want a programming language like that
22:57:52 <ehird`> i'll call it "even more retarded than BASIC"
22:57:56 <sp3tt> you... already have it?
22:59:24 <lament> lots of languages don't have procedures
22:59:40 <ehird`> but you can't call a procedure inside a procedures
22:59:55 <ehird`> so procedures basically execute in a retarded version of the code
23:00:25 <bsmntbombdood> if you set the recursion too high you get a segfault
23:00:35 <lament> ehird`: some extensions to brainfuck are like that
23:00:45 <lament> ehird`: also, C macros
23:00:45 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:00:47 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined.
23:00:53 <ehird`> ~exec sys.setrecursionlimit(i)
23:00:53 <bsmnt_bot> NameError: name 'i' is not defined
23:00:59 <ehird`> how do you get i in python
23:01:14 <lament> ehird`: don't be stupid, it wants an integer
23:01:21 <ehird`> i still want to pass it i
23:01:35 <lament> you'll just get another ValueError
23:02:14 <ehird`> ~exec self.raw((0, 1j))
23:02:15 <bsmnt_bot> TypeError: can only concatenate tuple (not "str") to tuple
23:02:22 <ehird`> ~exec self.raw(str((0, 1j)))
23:02:38 <ehird`> bsmnt_bot doesn't care
23:02:46 <lament> i mean bsmntbombdood: 1j is i
23:02:59 <sp3tt> ehimport cmath; 1jj
23:03:01 <lament> ehird`: seriously, why don't you do all this in a python interpreter
23:03:15 <ehird`> lament: not as fun as killing stuff in a bot
23:03:24 <lament> you're not killing anything, you're just flooding
23:03:58 <lament> you're trying to guess the syntax of python stuff as opposed to looking it up
23:04:46 <ehird`> no, i'm just playing with the bot
23:09:44 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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23:12:53 <ehird`> i like javascript; it's a good language
23:13:03 <ehird`> it's just overshadowed by the evil browser implementations :(
23:13:09 <ehird`> hey, it has first class functions.
23:13:12 <ehird`> and a decent object system.
23:15:07 <lament> rewrite bsmnt_bot in smetana
23:15:19 <lament> it's a good choice because there's no output
23:15:31 <ehird`> sounds like a bad choice for a primarily IO based bot
23:15:36 <bsmntbombdood> that sounds like something that grows if you don't take enough showers
23:15:43 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: esolang
23:16:05 <lament> ehird`: it will minimize the flooding :)
23:19:23 <ehird`> blahbot is better than them all
23:19:25 <ehird`> although i have not the code on this imac...
23:19:29 <pikhq> Gregor, why are you a D function now?
23:20:04 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+").
23:22:08 <pikhq> ~exec self.registerraw(r"^:(\S+)!\S+ PRIVMSG #esoteric:(.*)", lambda x, y: bot.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%s" % (y.group(2)))
23:22:09 <bsmnt_bot> SyntaxError: unexpected EOF while parsing
23:22:21 <pikhq> Oh well, my evil won't hit everyone.
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23:23:27 <ehird`> whoa, devnonsense code
23:24:27 <ehird`> class Fake; def channel; "#devnonsense"; end; def content; "@save"; end; end
23:24:27 <ehird`> seed_nonsense(nil, Fake.new)
23:24:31 <ehird`> that code is >so< a hack
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23:32:32 <ehird`> #devnonsense for his output
23:32:35 <ehird`> he's as deranged as ever.
23:33:21 -!- devnonsense has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:35:05 * ehird` wipes his memory; starts over
23:35:19 -!- devnonsense has joined.
23:35:37 <ehird`> [23:34] devnonsense: it I I it I the it I
23:35:37 <ehird`> [23:34] devnonsense: the it it I I I
23:35:38 <ehird`> [23:34] devnonsense: the I oh it the oh
23:36:09 <ehird`> "reuters drycleaning it off legal ridicule"
23:36:20 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:41:35 <pikhq> So, what're you seeding it from?
23:42:13 <ehird`> he occasionally made >very< deep comments
23:42:19 <ehird`> normally comments disparaging to other people
23:42:23 <pikhq> The wikipedia seed is a *very* good source.
23:42:33 <ehird`> That's where it was born.
23:42:43 <ehird`> It was talking coherently every now and then in less than half an hour
23:43:18 <ehird`> More like "random punctuation, or word?@
23:43:22 <ehird`> then it chooses a random word
23:43:34 <pikhq> It's literally just picking words at random?
23:43:43 <ehird`> And occasionally adding punctuation. yeah
23:44:09 <ehird`> Heck, i pasted a few of its generated text lines in #wikipedia once
23:44:14 <ehird`> nobody noticed it was a machine
23:44:40 <ehird`> got repeat hopeless system born recovery lines bsmntbombdood international washington to
23:44:43 <pikhq> I think that's more a result of average IRC english than your bot's quality.
23:45:15 -!- _D6Gregor1RFeZi has changed nick to GregorR.
23:45:29 <ehird`> #wikipedia has better english than most places
23:45:32 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
23:46:14 <pikhq> "what is do im half\nmarkov"
23:46:37 <ehird`> less like im incorrect please shoot theres
23:46:37 <ehird`> [23:45] devnonsense: laughed experiementing im just punctuation with
23:46:43 <pikhq> Is it actually achieving sentience?
23:46:53 <ehird`> "experiementing im just punctuation with"
23:46:58 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: #devnonsense
23:47:07 <ehird`> irc from various channels, regurgiatated randomly
23:47:35 <ehird`> "not deep coherently not gentoo bots
23:47:36 <pikhq> Although I think it's wanting to be Markov now.
23:47:42 <ehird`> is he more coherent than gentoo bots?!
23:47:47 <pikhq> "yey thatll repeat"
23:47:55 <ehird`> @sucks with recovery although cute"
23:48:24 <ehird`> "youre pikhq shrugging want ok there hour heck"
23:48:25 <pikhq> And yet, at the same time, it's spewing out some nonsense.
23:48:33 <ehird`> "tomaw repeat regurgiatated generated"
23:48:43 <ehird`> omg, he called markov hopeless
23:49:36 <ehird`> "again password required what $54 chanserv
23:49:41 <pikhq> He's moving on to *better* AI systems!
23:49:47 <pikhq> His demands don't stop!!!
23:50:09 <pikhq> Eventually he's going to want to run on Deep Blue.
23:50:15 <ehird`> ehird`: Open the pod bay doors, HAL.
23:50:15 <ehird`> [23:49] devnonsense: u average going you need my an
23:50:46 <ehird`> [23:49] devnonsense: open again now
23:51:21 <ehird`> "once markov one id 2 like average word"
23:53:28 <ehird`> "its moving access stupid experiments actually j4cbo speaker219"
23:53:31 <ehird`> he knows he is a stupid experiemtn
23:54:24 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA_effect
23:55:57 <ehird`> have please password ehird aesclepius recovery it
23:56:12 <pikhq> Realise that I anthropomorphise *every* program, not just AIs. ;)
23:56:38 <lament> I have no idea what "Programming languages are usually designed to prevent unintended ELIZA effects by restricting keywords and carefully avoiding potential misinterpretations" means
23:56:39 <oerjan> ancient garbled sweet mercy octopus soup
23:57:20 <oerjan> it probably means most PLs don't try to be too close to English syntax
23:57:53 <ehird`> pikhq: oh come on tar, don't be like this, you always put me in sticky situations
23:58:04 <oerjan> because that might cause people to think it actually understands what they say
23:58:11 <ehird`> for went hi carefully nonsense all someone hostname bots around xchat comments effects
23:59:24 <oerjan> i recall (from Lambda the Ultimate?) that some attempted exceptions (Applescript?) lead to problems in this way
23:59:42 <ehird`> applescript is god-awful
00:00:19 <oerjan> i don't know it, but apparently it tries to look like english but only some words actually matter...
00:00:45 <lament> yeah, i'm sure this is a problem with the latest Inform
00:00:49 <lament> although people claim it's a great language
00:01:09 <ehird`> the latest inform is .. not pleasant
00:01:13 <ehird`> the previous inform was nicer
00:01:24 <lament> well, the people who actually write interactive fiction say it's great
00:01:32 <ehird`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleScript
00:01:43 <ehird`> lament: most IF writers don't know programming
00:02:11 <lament> Not anybody who writes _good_ IF
00:02:23 <lament> i'll be specific: Emily Short and Andrew Plotkin like the new Inform.
00:02:50 <lament> plotkin in particular is a programming genius and i generally trust him on programming-related matters.
00:02:56 <GregorR> Down the corridor, the variable X begins to appear through the fog. If the value is 3, turn to page 249. Otherwise, turn to page 655.
00:03:41 <ehird`> well, personally, the new Inform is a gimmick
00:03:47 <lament> (not to mention Graham Nelson himself, who's also a bit of a genius)
00:04:43 <pikhq> Call me up when your bot outputs itself.
00:05:16 <pikhq> Or writes itself a better version.
00:05:25 <lament> ~exec bot.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :itself")
00:05:58 <ehird`> takes cmon again lament pasted rofl nicer then new
00:09:35 <pikhq> Sure, but will it do so of its own free will?
00:09:49 <lament> pikhq: it's fairly easy to write a bot that would train itself... IF THIS BLOODY NEURAL NET LIBRARY WORKED :(
00:11:03 * oerjan notes that there is no section on criticism in the AppleScript article
00:13:04 <oerjan> lament: you should talk to Sukoshi`, she was doing neural nets
00:13:35 <ehird`> `s are all the rage aren't they
00:14:12 <oerjan> it happens to be the nick she's on with at the moment
00:14:14 <pikhq> Why can't you use Tcl semantics?
00:14:15 -!- Figs has joined.
00:14:27 <pikhq> ([] in Tcl == `` in shell)
00:15:03 <ehird`> i have a ` because "ehird" was hijacked by someone with a ghostbot :(
00:15:29 <lament> bsmntbombdood: audio processing
00:15:44 <ehird`> lament: how on earth can n- i don't want to know :p
00:15:52 <ehird`> [00:15] devnonsense: connect russia even shrug !!. For tired
00:15:57 <ehird`> he's trying to make a soviet russia joke..
00:16:04 -!- Figs has left (?).
00:17:07 <oerjan> ehird`: i believe freenode has long been having plans to make only the initial alphanumeric characters significant in nicks, so beware
00:18:27 <oerjan> well the reason seems nifty: it means you can add nearly any suffix you want without registering it
00:18:57 <ehird`> loads of people use nicks like
00:19:29 <oerjan> of course it has still not been implemented, perhaps they have had too many complaints
00:20:01 <lament> what if my nick is xXx_SEXYGIRL_xXx
00:20:10 <lament> would that become xXx? :(
00:20:52 <oerjan> i think so, _ is probably the main character they want to stop at (because clients such as mine add it automatically if there is a ghost of the ordinary one)
00:22:00 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: you mean like |nick| ?
00:22:21 <ehird`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_edge
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00:23:54 <oerjan> hmph, freenode.org is down, i wanted to check the status of the idea
00:24:33 <bsmntbombdood> they're like fundemental christians, without the christ part
00:29:17 <oerjan> oh, you can have non-alphanumerics before the base, so |nick| is allowed
00:29:29 <oerjan> http://freenode.net/policy.shtml#usernames
00:30:58 <lament> " Unregistered users will always have nicknames prefaced with the tilde ('~') character. " - seriously what idiot came up with that?
00:31:12 <lament> I also propose that Jewish users have their nicknames prefaced with the star of David.
00:32:17 <lament> oh, that was back in 2005, so this will never get implemented.
00:32:20 <oerjan> "but as of this date (28 August 2005), needed facilities are not yet available and no schedule yet exists"
00:33:08 <lament> is it lilo who wrote this document: http://freenode.net/Why_NOIDPREFIX.shtml ?
00:33:33 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:33:37 <lament> but i'm not sure, it's not signed
00:33:42 <lament> "For those of you who may not know me, I'm the head of staff of freenode. I've run this project, and the ones leading up to it for something over ten years."
00:35:56 <lament> anyway, it says "Staff are not in any hurry to begin production use of NOIDPREFIX before nickname conflicts can be resolved"
00:36:01 <lament> which means it will never happen
00:36:10 <lament> backwards compatibility wins again
00:37:24 <oerjan> well, with the main protagonist dead...
00:40:19 <bsmntbombdood> it should be "allow popups _to_ x", not "allow popups _from_ x"
00:43:33 <oerjan> maybe both from and to would have their uses
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06:01:26 <gnomon> Has anyone here put serious thought into an optimization Brainfuck compiler?
06:02:14 <lament> people put some thought, not sure how serious it was
06:04:36 <gnomon> Did anyone talk about getting beyond constant folding and loop unrolling? Has anyone talked about in-loop pointer analysis in order to perform branch recovery?
06:05:20 <lament> i don't remember it being discussed in the channel
06:05:46 <lament> i thought about it for a while, seems difficult :)
06:06:05 <lament> it's so hard to come up with invariants
06:10:06 <gnomon> It's actually not that hard.
06:10:06 <lament> an unbalanced loop means a whole bunch of memory cells get affected, and you don't know at compile time how many
06:10:06 <gnomon> lament, no, but you can parametrize the memory-cell effect on the input cell.
06:10:06 <gnomon> bsmntbombdood, that's awesome! Is the source up anywhere? What does the 'cf' stand for/
06:10:06 <lament> gnomon: hm, that's true, i suppose you could even precompile 255 versions of the loop
06:10:06 <lament> for different input values :)
06:10:06 <lament> but the problem is, the effect of an unbalanced loop depends on the state of more than just the initial cell
06:10:07 <gnomon> That assumes that you're using byte-oriented cells; the technique doesn't scale in the general case.
06:12:49 <bsmntbombdood> http://esolangs.org/files/egobot/egobot-0.12.tar.bz2
06:13:12 <pikhq> That's EgoBot, not Egobfi.
06:13:21 <gnomon> lament, and the effect of an unbalanced loop can be parametrized as long as the loop itself is bounded. The analysis actually isn't difficult once you've got opcode reordering in place.
06:13:25 <pikhq> Egobfi is also in a seperate tarball.
06:13:42 <lament> gnomon: how do you know if it's bounded? :)
06:13:46 <pikhq> And it seems to be a fairly good optimising interpreter/compiler.
06:14:41 <gnomon> lament, you can analyze that if the loop moves the pointer back to the beginning cell before the end of the loop.
06:14:54 <lament> gnomon: that's a balanced loop
06:15:27 <gnomon> Ah, we're using different terms.
06:15:51 <lament> but not very interesting
06:16:05 <lament> if all your loops are balanced, everything is easy
06:16:10 <pikhq> Egobfi is in Egobot, but it's also in a seperate tarball. . .
06:16:18 <gnomon> Of course; if they are all balanced, you can constant-fold your entire program.
06:17:05 <pikhq> Bit of a shame that Egobfi doesn't do much more than add-to optimisation.
06:17:07 <lament> the real issue is determining when a chain of unbalanced operations is actually balanced :)
06:17:19 <lament> say we input a bunch of numbers, and then output them all
06:17:20 <gnomon> A chain or a series of nested loops?
06:17:40 <bsmntbombdood> "in-loop pointer analysis in order to perform branch recovery" what do these fancy words mean?
06:18:26 <pikhq> GregorR: I think PEBBLE's optimization pass is more sophisticated than yours.
06:19:01 <GregorR> My optimization pass is almost no optimization pass.
06:19:07 <GregorR> Every optimization pass is more optimizationerific.
06:19:19 <bsmntbombdood> interesting to compile a simple language to a more complicated one
06:19:22 <gnomon> bsmntbombdood, analyzing pointer movement inside a loop to distinguish loops which perform predictable computation to those which are dependent on other memory cells for their effect - that is, distinguishing loops from branches.
06:19:38 <lament> gnomon: say we input a bunch of numbers and then output them all. It's quite possible at this point that we have returned to the original memory cells, and all cells are empty. This is an invariant obvious to a human
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06:19:53 * pikhq thought it was uber1337, but then decided to look at the code. . .
06:20:00 <pikhq> That's actually almost trivial.
06:20:05 <lament> gnomon: if an optimizing compiler were smart enough to realize that, that would be nice.
06:20:47 <gnomon> lament, it's a small step from finding [your definition of] balanced loops to performing that inference.
06:21:04 <gnomon> pikhq, is PEBBLE another BF implementation?
06:22:06 <pikhq> gnomon: No, PEBBLE is a macro language that compiles to Brainfuck that I've been fiddling with for the better part of a year.
06:22:37 <gnomon> Now *that* is interesting.
06:22:45 <pikhq> Of course, it's easier to optimise stuff if you get 'high-level' input.
06:22:52 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pebble.php
06:23:10 <gnomon> Right - which is why I find branch recovery to be so important. It lets you recover high[er]-level semantics.
06:23:14 <gnomon> Cool, thanks! Reading now!
06:24:55 <GregorR> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=45.123789,+-123.113785&ie=UTF8&ll=45.123836,-123.113799&spn=0.000889,0.001824&t=h&z=19&om=1
06:26:36 <GregorR> THE ALIENS HAVE COME AND THEY'RE USING FIREFOX
06:27:07 <lament> well obviously they are.
06:27:12 <lament> what else would the use, lynx?
06:32:06 <oerjan> oh, they're not aliens, they are the characters from 1/0.
06:32:39 <bsmntbombdood> firefox has not been working very well for me lately
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11:30:21 <ehird`> other misinterpretations kate coherently im dang delegates
11:53:03 <sp3tt> bissextile (by-SEKS-til) adjective
11:53:04 <sp3tt> Of or pertaining to the leap year or the extra day in the leap year.
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16:24:45 <Keymaker> smurf is a cool language, pity i haven't realized that until now.
16:36:52 <GregorR> To smurf you just have to smurf your smurfs while smurfily smurfing smurfs.
16:36:58 <Keymaker> smurf, the 'String-based MURiel Forthoid'
16:38:30 <Keymaker> no, i came here only to tell that the language they are using is cool
16:39:37 <pikhq> Hey, I can do something almost exactly like that!
16:39:42 <pikhq> *cough*PEBBLE*cough*
16:49:24 <GregorR> pikhq: Oh smurf off, nobody smurfs.
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16:57:50 <Keymaker> well, i'll be smurfing out. bye
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17:06:39 * SimonRC fails to spot the reference aboiut "Smurf", apart from the language name.
17:07:05 <pikhq> The Smurfs is also a cartoon series.
17:08:32 <pikhq> Well, that's about it.
17:08:35 <SimonRC> I mean, where was it used as an expletive?
17:09:38 <GregorR> Smurfs smurf most of their smurfs and their smurfs.
17:12:03 <GregorR> Yeesh, what a smurfing smurfer.
17:28:03 <ehird`> All verbs and adjectives must now be smurf.
17:32:01 <lament> damn, i need a credit card
17:32:37 <ehird`> nouns must be smurf too
17:32:45 <lament> i can't buy airplane tickets online :(
17:32:53 <ehird`> i can't smurf smurfs online
17:33:50 <puzzlet> what on smurf you smurf me
17:39:53 <ehird`> let's smurf about something else
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18:18:54 <GregorR> Deh smoyfs have brooklyn smoyfs too, and they'll smoyf yah smoyf off!
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18:59:51 <ehird`> smurfin smurfing smurfy smurf
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19:22:58 <sp3tt> no, it's an acronym
19:28:33 <ehird`> a smurf is any smurf you want it to smurf.
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23:15:55 <jix> has anyone here continued to work on the talking irc bot concept?
23:17:21 <jix> well some pseudo ai thing
23:17:35 <jix> so people think it's a real person... at least for some time
23:19:44 <lament> yes, it's bsmntbombdood
23:19:57 <lament> right now it just repeats what you said as a question
23:27:04 <ehird`> that project is still in progress in my brain
23:27:21 <ehird`> lament: that's actually quite convincing. haha.
23:28:57 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: are you a bot?
23:30:04 <ehird`> i wonder what it should do with questions.
23:31:24 <ehird`> I like pancakes. Do you like pancakes?
23:31:49 <ehird`> this is >scarily< realistic.
23:31:57 <ehird`> most conversations on irc go like this.
23:32:23 <ehird`> now i'm creeped out =p
23:32:50 <bsmnt_bot> bsmntbombdood's logic is tired, please give him a break
23:33:26 <lament> bsmnt_bot: you should add a neural net to bsmntbombdood
23:33:38 <lament> bsmnt_bot: and at least a markov chain generator
23:33:45 <ehird`> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually that's a lie. he wants to convert more statements into questions!")
23:33:46 <bsmnt_bot> actually that's a lie. he wants to convert more statements into questions!
23:34:27 <jix> ~exec self.raw("QUIT :OHNOESES!")
23:34:28 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit ("OHNOESES!").
23:34:31 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined.
23:35:25 <bsmnt_bot> im too tired to work on bsmntbombdood, it's a waste of time, he'll never be intelligent enough to fool people into thinking he's sentient
23:36:16 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Client Quit).
23:36:18 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined.
23:36:37 <jix> ~exec exit
23:37:42 <bsmnt_bot> i shall kill you, alternate me! *stab*
23:37:52 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Client Quit).
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23:39:28 <bsmnt_bot> somebody... give all my posessions to bsmntbombdood...ugjhaskjdhdklhgklfjgklsdmdmdmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
23:46:16 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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23:47:00 <lament> or rather ehird`s secrets...
23:47:21 <ehird`> its been pretty much 50/50 me/presumably bsmntbombdood
23:49:12 <ehird`> bsmnt_bot is only in here and #esoteric-blah
23:49:18 <ehird`> and only i have been commanding via #esoteric-blah
23:49:28 <ehird`> so who on earth is controlling bsmnt_bot? you obviously
23:51:20 <ehird`> bsmnt_bot is not sentient at last check.
23:51:59 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood_.
23:52:03 <jix> not whhat again?
23:52:32 <jix> ~exec self.raw("~raw NICK bsmntbombdood")
23:52:43 <jix> ~exec self.raw("NICK bsmntbombdood")
23:52:45 -!- bsmnt_bot has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
23:52:57 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmnt_bot.
23:53:38 <ehird`> ~raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :~raw does not exist
23:53:44 <ehird`> ~eval self.register_raw
23:53:49 <ehird`> ~eval self.register_raw
23:53:56 <ehird`> ~eval self.register_raw()
23:54:02 <ehird`> ~eval self.register_raw()
23:57:35 -!- ihope has joined.
23:57:51 <ihope> Why are you your bot?
23:58:56 <jix> you are stupid
00:00:23 <ihope> ~exec self.raw("QUIT")
00:00:23 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit.
00:00:58 -!- bsmnt_bot has changed nick to bsmnt_bot_.
00:01:03 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined.
00:01:35 -!- bsmnt_bot has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
00:01:38 <ehird`> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG :#esoteric No, I am sparctacus!")
00:01:46 -!- bsmnt_bot_ has changed nick to bsmnt_bot.
00:01:52 <ehird`> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I am sparctacus!")
00:02:04 * ehird` wonders if you did that manually
00:02:13 <ihope> Did what manually?
00:02:29 <ihope> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%s" + 193751234*123984726)
00:02:29 <bsmntbombdood> TypeError: cannot concatenate 'str' and 'long' objects
00:02:37 <ihope> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%s" % 193751234*123984726)
00:02:47 <ihope> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%s" % (193751234*123984726))
00:02:49 <ehird`> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :" + str(193751234*123984726))
00:02:53 <ihope> Can't quite do that manually :-P
00:03:12 <ehird`> maybe he is very good at mental arithmetic
00:03:24 <ihope> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :" * 23)
00:03:25 <bsmntbombdood> PRIVMSG #esoteric :PRIVMSG #esoteric :PRIVMSG #esoteric :PRIVMSG #esoteric :PRIVMSG #esoteric :PRIVMSG #esoteric :PRIVMSG #esoteric :PRIVMSG #esoteric :PRIVMSG #esoteric :PRIVMSG #esoteric :PRIVMSG #esoteric :PRIVMSG #esoteric :PRIVMSG #esoteric :PRIVMSG #esoteric :PRIVMSG #esoteric :PRIVMSG #esoteric :PRIVMSG #esoteric :PRIVMSG #esoteric :PRIVMSG #esoteric :PRIVMSG #esoteric :PRIVMSG #esoteric :PRIVMSG #esoteric :
00:04:00 <bsmnt_bot> ~exec self.raw("privmsg #esoteric :ihope" * 69)
00:04:01 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Excess Flood).
00:04:19 -!- bsmnt_bot has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
00:04:20 <ehird`> i know the perfect test!
00:04:24 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined.
00:04:36 -!- bsmnt_bot has changed nick to bsmntbombdood_.
00:05:09 <ehird`> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%i" % (math.pi))
00:05:15 <ehird`> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%d" % (math.pi))
00:05:23 <ehird`> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%r" % (math.pi))
00:05:31 <ehird`> very good at memorizing pi i see
00:05:40 <jix> i know more digits
00:05:46 <ihope> Nah, mental calculation.
00:06:11 <jix> 3.14159265358979323846264 i know so many but i knew more once...
00:06:14 <jix> but forgot some of them
00:06:30 <ihope> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%r" % (math.e))
00:06:34 <ehird`> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%r" % math.exp(math.pi))
00:06:43 <ehird`> he is very good at mental calculation.
00:06:47 <ehird`> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%r" % math.sqrt(math.pi))
00:06:58 <ihope> Pff, how do you know those are right?
00:07:06 <ihope> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%r" % (math.exp(math.pi)^j))
00:07:10 <ihope> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%r" % (math.exp(math.pi)^J))
00:07:16 <ihope> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%r" % (math.exp(math.pi)^1j))
00:07:21 <bsmntbombdood_> TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for ^: 'float' and 'complex'
00:07:43 <bsmntbombdood_> OSError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/bot/keep_running'
00:07:51 <ihope> ~exec sys.stdout(1j^1j)
00:07:52 <bsmntbombdood_> TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for ^: 'complex' and 'complex'
00:07:53 <jix> ehird`: the imaginary unit is i not j
00:08:05 <ehird`> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%r" % math.hypot(math.exp(math.pi)))
00:08:06 <bsmntbombdood_> TypeError: hypot() takes exactly 2 arguments (1 given)
00:08:13 <ehird`> jix: also in engineering it's i
00:08:17 <ehird`> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%r" % math.hypot(math.exp(math.pi), 1j))
00:08:18 <jix> but j and k are used too for quaternions
00:08:25 <ehird`> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%r" % math.hypot(math.exp(math.pi), abs(1j)))
00:08:38 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood_: you are exceedingly gifted
00:08:43 <ihope> Are you sure quaternions aren't symmetrical
00:08:46 <ehird`> may i suggest you join MENSA rather than posing as a bot?
00:08:52 <ihope> ~exec sys.stdout("Thank you!")
00:09:10 <ehird`> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%r" % math.sqrt(1j))
00:09:15 <ehird`> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%r" % math.sqrt(abs(1j)))
00:09:19 <ehird`> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%r" % abs(1j))
00:09:21 <jix> ihope: sym what?
00:09:21 <ihope> ~exec sys.stdout("Do they have an IRC interface? I'm afraid I'm connected directly to IRC.")
00:09:22 <bsmntbombdood_> Do they have an IRC interface? I'm afraid I'm connected directly to IRC.
00:09:39 <ehird`> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%r" % math.tan(math.exp(math.pi)*1j))
00:09:43 <ehird`> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%r" % math.tan(math.exp(math.pi)))
00:10:06 <lament> do you honestly expect python stdlib functions to work on complex numbers
00:10:13 <ihope> ~exec sys.stdout(math.e ^ math.pi - math.pi)
00:10:13 <bsmntbombdood_> TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for ^: 'float' and 'float'
00:10:23 <ihope> ~exec sys.stdout(math.e ** math.pi - math.pi)
00:10:26 <jix> isn't ^ xor
00:10:38 <ehird`> ~exec sys.stdout(1j ** 42j)
00:10:43 -!- kwertii has joined.
00:10:46 <ehird`> ~exec sys.stdout(1j ** 42j)[0]
00:10:49 <ihope> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :%r" % (math.exp(math.pi)**1j))
00:11:03 <ehird`> ~exec sys.stdout("%r" % (1j ** 42j))
00:11:09 <ehird`> amazing mental calculation
00:11:38 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit.
00:11:39 <ehird`> ~exec self.nick = "lookhowfasticantypetochangenicks"
00:12:06 <ihope> Actually, bsmntbombdood_ merely has an elaborate collection of macros.
00:12:31 <bsmntbombdood> a macro to give ~exec ... to a python interpreter?
00:12:49 <ihope> A Python interpreter is an elaborate collection of macros.
00:17:12 <bsmntbombdood> i wonder how hard it would be to write a python interpreter
00:22:07 <ehird`> people have done it before
00:25:27 <ihope> Plenty easy to write a Python interpreter in Python.
00:25:55 <ihope> Not so much to write it in a language without such a specialized feature.
00:26:39 <bsmntbombdood> as easy as it is to write a scheme interpreter in scheme?
00:27:27 <ehird`> since the exprstatement difference
00:27:51 <lament> not all things which you don't understand are stupid.
00:28:07 <ehird`> you've used that one before when i've mentioned the seperation being stupid
00:28:47 <lament> well, i see you still don't understand it, so my point stands :)
00:33:47 <ihope> The only things that are stupid are those that *I* don't understand.
00:34:28 <ihope> Therefore, all languages that do not follow Haskell philosophy are stupid.
00:35:52 -!- ehird` has changed nick to ehird`sleep.
00:36:56 <jix> no it's me who is stupid!
00:37:06 <jix> and stopid
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00:46:42 <Tritonio> bsmntbombdood, what that new brainfuck variation that I saw on the esolang forum? with the two new commands: & % ?
00:47:14 <Tritonio> i didn't even got what the continuations is.
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00:50:01 <Tritonio> has it got to do with calling blocks of brainfuck code that return and argument? or am I completely wrong?
00:50:31 <bsmntbombdood> you won't understand it unless you understand continuations
00:51:02 <ihope> I'm not sure I quite understand it.
00:51:21 <ihope> I probably do, but...
00:51:30 <Tritonio> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation
00:51:47 <ihope> Ah, yes, I get it.
00:53:19 <bsmntbombdood> i of course thought continuations were much cooler
00:53:47 <Tritonio> what's a continuation? a block of code?
00:54:06 <Tritonio> wiki says it is the rest of the code you have to execute to finish a calculation
00:54:27 <Tritonio> so you are going to have many code tapes?
00:55:40 <bsmntbombdood> you have a sparse array, that stores (tape, code pointer) pairs
00:57:01 <bsmntbombdood> ok, & stores the current tape and code pointer in that sparse array, the index being the value of the current cell, then keeps executing normally
00:58:16 <Tritonio> and what about: "...and change the current cell to 0 if we come from & or the argument if we come from %."
00:59:20 <bsmntbombdood> there has to be a way to distinguish between normall execution of &, and jumping there with a %
01:00:15 <Tritonio> and % is like jumping to that label.
01:00:46 <bsmntbombdood> % replaces the stack and code pointer with the pair indexed by the current cell, and puts the value of the next cell in the the cell where the & was
01:00:58 <bsmntbombdood> it's more than goto, because the environment is replaced
01:01:15 <Tritonio> and you also can pass a value while jumping.
01:02:12 <bsmntbombdood> & is like (call/cc (lambda (x) (set! <value of current cell> x) (set! current-cell 0)))
01:02:25 <Tritonio> ok i think I got it now. I've never heard of continuations...
01:02:36 <bsmntbombdood> % is like (<value of current cell> <value of next cell>)
01:03:39 <oerjan> Tritonio: check out the Io language (not the object-oriented one)
01:04:08 <Tritonio> i thought there was a brainfuck implementation with support for "subroutines"
01:04:25 <oerjan> it's a language where nearly everything is a continuation, instead of functions.
01:04:55 <oerjan> so you cannot return from a function/continuation, you have to call another continuation from it instead
01:04:57 <Tritonio> oerjan, not the OO one? I found the OO.
01:06:26 <oerjan> documentation may be a bit hard to find
01:07:21 <oerjan> http://www.guldheden.com/~sandin/amalthea.html
01:07:54 <bsmntbombdood> defining a function is like: "load desired function number"&[ "function code" [->+<]%]
01:10:27 <oerjan> in case you don't notice the link in there, http://www.nondot.org/sabre/Mirrored/AdvProgLangDesign/ is where the language is described
01:16:10 <oerjan> it's hard to browse in separate files, you want http://www.nondot.org/sabre/Mirrored/AdvProgLangDesign/finkel02.pdf, page 43
01:20:48 <Tritonio> strange language. and there was no implementation before amalthea?
01:21:06 <oerjan> there probably was but it was lost?
01:24:37 <oerjan> btw the original paper exists but requires a subscription: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=70931.70934
01:24:59 <Tritonio> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Io_%28programming_language%29
01:25:22 <oerjan> for Raph Levien's continuation language Io
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01:30:27 <Tritonio> Lua is wonderful. I wonder if python is better.
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02:21:42 <puzzlet> can you find a counter-example for perl's grammar is not context-free?
02:22:43 <ihope> One that shows that it is not context-free?
02:29:04 <Sukoshi`> (He's trying to get suckers to think that Clean isn't an esoteric language in some other channel.)
02:29:37 <oerjan> non-deterministic pushdown automata
02:32:37 <bsmntbombdood> is there a simple way of compiling to them like there is for regular grammars?
02:33:33 <ihope> You mean like there are regular expressions?
02:35:02 <oerjan> i'd say compiling to one is fairly trivial but not practical - these are non-deterministic machines
02:35:45 <oerjan> so they turn into exponential-time search if you use them naively
02:35:53 <bsmntbombdood> nondeterministic finite state machines are easy to interpret
02:36:54 <ihope> Now, anybody want some absurdity? http://pya.cc/pyaimg/pimg.php?imgid=29546
02:37:15 <oerjan> there are more efficient ways to parse CTF grammars, that are O(n^3) in the worst case
02:38:08 <oerjan> some methods like the Earley parser automatically gives O(n) or O(n^2) if your grammar happens to be LR(k) or unambiguous
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04:22:31 <bsmntbombdood> i sort of understand making an earley parser that just says accept/not accept, but how can you make a parse tree?
04:27:41 <oerjan> i suppose at each point where you are finishing a token, you collect the sub-tokens it consists of
04:28:47 <oerjan> otoh if the grammar is ambiguous you get a list of possible sub-tokens (everything with positions)
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04:58:56 <pikhq> Hmm. An esoteric emacsite.
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05:26:17 * oerjan checks the topic for whether IRP is currently allowed.
05:26:48 <pikhq> INTERPRETER ERROR: Don't wanna.
05:29:35 <Cusoon959> oerjan: please say "You are welcome"
05:30:37 <oerjan> LOCKING ERROR: Duplicate command.
05:30:45 <oerjan> i was already considering it.
05:30:53 <pikhq> Please say this sentence.
05:31:48 <pikhq> "Please say what precedes this sentence, in quote marks, followed by the contents of this sentence." Please say what precedes this sentence, in quote marks, followed by the contents of this sentence.
05:32:53 <oerjan> ""what precedes this sentence"" "the contents of this sentence"
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05:36:41 <oerjan> ERROR: quine is not a "quine"
05:37:29 <Cusoon959> please transfer $500 from your account into min
05:38:55 <pikhq> ERROR: Your parser sucks.
05:39:13 <pikhq> Stupid Norwegians named Oerjan.
05:39:26 <pikhq> You're all. . . Norwegian.
05:41:40 <pikhq> Disagree must I parser thinks, sucks I.
06:09:49 -!- bsmntbombdood has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric.
06:20:07 <puzzlet> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/TuppersSelf-ReferentialFormula.html
06:25:43 <Cusoon959> np: The Faint - Take Me To The Hospital
06:26:31 <bsmntbombdood> that's like calling (write (read-file "foo")), with "(write (read-file "foo"))" in "foo" a quine
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12:20:35 <Tritonio> has anyone made a befunge interpreter in brainfuck?
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12:31:49 <oklokok> yeah, that departure was a slap in the face
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21:17:26 <Sukoshi`> ``Can I have a storm sewer map?'' ``Sure'' ``Yay''
21:18:02 <Sukoshi`> Yeah. You probably didn't say yay :P
21:18:05 <RodgerTheGreat> bonus points for 3d panoramic pictures or taking them in a sequence so that we can assemble them into our own myst-esque game
21:18:14 <bsmntbombdood> ``Can I have a storm sewer map?'' ``Fuck you, you're just a kid''
21:19:31 <Sukoshi`> Isn't it public information though?
21:19:57 <Sukoshi`> Or at least, threatened to sue.
21:21:16 <Sukoshi`> To deny a person the right to inform themselves about their public facilities that they pay for through their money is a hefty crime indeed.
21:22:05 <Sukoshi`> More likely than not though, he'd just give you the map and settle it out of court.
21:22:51 <bsmntbombdood> they are allowed to charge for the price of the materials
21:23:04 <oklokok> it's fun paying for no reason.
21:23:06 <Sukoshi`> It costs $5 to print on a piece of cheap paper and the ink involved?
21:23:20 <Sukoshi`> At most I can see it costing $2.
21:23:22 <oklokok> i'd gladly pay $5 for something free
21:24:02 <oklokok> maps are expensive, and you can't just copy them just like that
21:24:14 <oklokok> in finland that is... i know nothing about america of course
21:24:56 <RodgerTheGreat> oklokok: don't you know? Every american home is equipped with an 8 foot drum printer
21:25:20 <Sukoshi`> oklokok: If the maps are stored in an image though, you can copy them just like that.
21:25:27 <oklokok> i meant, they can't legally be copied
21:25:31 <Sukoshi`> The awesome power of modern technology, huh? :P
21:25:42 <Sukoshi`> The government doesen't have its own map copies?
21:25:55 <oklokok> well i guess if they are public property, you can just copy them just like that.
21:26:00 <RodgerTheGreat> maybe the idea is that only the government can copy them
21:26:17 <RodgerTheGreat> which could be good, simply for purposes of keeping rough track of who has the information
21:26:55 <oklokok> anyway, someone's gotta pay the map drawer ppl, the fact the map is public doesn't mean a commoner buying it doesn't have to pay his share to them.
21:27:48 <bsmntbombdood> oklokok: the idea is that the map drawer is payed with taxes
21:28:23 <RodgerTheGreat> another thing is, charging even a small fee could help reduce the number of people requesting maps for no reason
21:28:49 <oklokok> but i've been wrong from the beginning.
21:28:52 <RodgerTheGreat> you don't want some yahoo taking a copy of every map in the records department just because he can
21:30:10 <RodgerTheGreat> shit, I'd pay $5 to use something like that as a wall poster
21:39:47 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: what about the roof?
21:41:10 <bsmntbombdood> you can't really look at a map on the ceiling though
21:42:01 <oklokok> you can look at it while you sleep
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01:08:47 <bsmntbombdood> do that, take a nap, and to the average guy's eye, you look like a hardworking programmer
01:52:23 <ihope> Do I sense continuation-passing style?
01:53:23 <ihope> I guess I can't demand continuation-passing style here, since print doesn't return anything.
01:53:35 <ihope> Or maybe I can, since something to do next is sort of required.
01:53:43 <ihope> Um... say 'print "Hi" stop' instead.
01:54:12 <ihope> Or I can just guess at your meaning. :-)
01:54:50 <ihope> Error: unmatched parenthesis at column 12
01:57:08 <Cusoon959> Please, some one write the first 16 numbers of the Fibonacci Sequence.
01:57:23 <sp3tt> Interpreter error: fuck you
01:58:07 <sp3tt> irp is non-deterministic
02:00:38 <ihope> Error: fuck you :: IO a -> IO a; expected IO a.
02:02:13 <pikhq> Please, do not be deterministic.
02:02:30 * pikhq loves self-fulfilling commands
02:03:37 * ihope loves self-defeating statements
02:04:29 <pikhq> This is not a self-referencing statement.
02:06:04 <pikhq> Not according to itself.
02:10:08 <ihope> Yes, but it doesn't have to be true.
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03:23:32 <GregorR> This statement is both true and false.
03:25:17 <pikhq> Simultaneously, or depending upon one's mood?
03:25:31 <pikhq> Hmm. Is it in a superposition of states?
03:25:55 <pikhq> Or maybe, the statement *itself* decides which it is!
03:26:12 * pikhq loves this channel
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03:41:12 <Sukoshi`> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103773 <-- Read the first review.
03:45:41 <Sukoshi`> You're supposed to laugh at the review's idiocy.
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07:00:10 <c1|freaky> why would someone use a programming language like brainfuck? im just curious
07:17:55 <GregorR> For the sheer amusement and challenge of it.
07:18:31 <GregorR> Like Where's Waldo - frustrating as all hell, but even though you haven't accomplished something it feels great to get things working.
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18:40:33 <oklokok> hmm, i think it might work better postfix, argless looks nicer and unary args look less gay
19:42:50 <oklokok> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDzampa3xrc
19:43:35 <oklokok> ehird`: long story, though i'd've assumed you'd get it
20:03:31 <ehird`> THOSE FINGERS CREEP ME OUT AAAAAH
20:03:48 <oklokok> that's one helluva cool ca
20:04:45 <ehird`> real-life cellular automata :p
20:04:51 <ehird`> ... done with real cells!
20:05:14 <oklokok> and see if it's deterministic at all
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21:12:29 <oklokok> well aren't those the better options anyway
21:24:11 <oklokok> then stop complaining and sing!
21:29:18 <oklokok> i know, that was completely unrelated
21:29:50 <oklokok> ("then" was just bluffing)
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22:44:00 <bsmntbombdood> how can context-free languages not be recognized by a FSM, but, my computer is a FSM
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22:48:10 <GregorR> Context-free languages CAN be recognized by an FSM.
22:48:18 <GregorR> Context-free languages can be recognized by a PDA.
22:50:09 <GregorR> I was misusing the term FSM like you are.
22:50:14 <GregorR> Your computer is higher than an FSM.
22:50:21 <GregorR> Your computer is nearly a Turing machine.
22:50:39 <bsmntbombdood> that's like calling a FSM with a lot of states a turing machine
22:51:41 <GregorR> If you're going to get technical, then your computer can't recognize every possible instance of code written in a context-free language, because it doesn't have infinite memory.
22:51:52 <GregorR> Or, you could not be so needlessly technical.
22:52:35 <bsmntbombdood> i don't think a FSM can recognize all strings of a context-free language less than a certain length
22:53:01 <GregorR> You can define each state as the exact content of every bit of memory in your computer plus registers, etc.
22:53:59 <GregorR> OR, you can acknowledge that that's a nonsense way to go about things, and the fact that your computer is bounded doesn't change the fact that it functions effectively as a Turing machine (until it runs out of memory)
23:04:27 <ihope> They can't *all* be recognized by FSM.
23:05:03 <ihope> If you give your computer a googolplex of ( and a googolplex of ), it won't be able to tell you whether they're matched or not.
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18:58:48 <SimonRC> BTW, my lucid dreaming expreiments are going well
18:58:52 <SimonRC> I had a nother a few nigts ago
18:59:23 <SimonRC> Once again, it was by the supposedly-rare method of spotting a stupid thing in my dream:
19:00:00 <SimonRC> After a false awakening, I noticed that thecontrols on my shower looked like they belonged in a Space Shuttle cockpit.
19:00:12 <SimonRC> me: "WTF?! I must be dreaming."
19:01:23 <SimonRC> I notice that there is not enough room to do the next thing I am supposed to do (spin around), and fail to summon a large empty space, even when I look in the other direction.
19:02:55 <bsmtbombdood> and to think you could have had kinky shower sex with space shuttle bunnies
19:07:08 <SimonRC> No, my usual plan is to fly about.
19:07:32 <SimonRC> (well, Kigdatsi actually, but few people can tell the difference.)
19:10:55 <oklokok> you've misunderstood the idea of lucid dreaming
19:11:10 <SimonRC> apparently sex tends to wake you up
19:11:19 <SimonRC> or at least make a IRL mess
19:12:01 <SimonRC> as opposed to a dream mess
19:12:10 <oklokok> i just don't know what you mean
19:12:45 <SimonRC> I mean that having sex in a real would make you ejaculate in reality as well
19:13:02 <oklokok> i thought you were talking about an emotional mess or smth
19:14:43 <oklokok> if you think that's a good enough reason not to do it... you're weird, says i :P
19:15:01 <oklokok> or then i'm just inherently messier than you
19:15:19 <ehird`> i have never once heard that having sex in a lucid dream causes real-life ejaculation
19:15:23 <ehird`> and that is an absurd idea
19:15:28 <ehird`> if you jump off a cliff in a lucid dream, do you die?
19:15:37 <ehird`> if you take off your head in a lucid dream, do you die?
19:15:46 <ehird`> if you walk forwards in a lucid dream, do you walk forwards IRL?
19:15:50 <ehird`> [daydreaming excluded]
19:15:53 <oerjan> ehird`: what, you never had a wet dream?
19:16:02 <SimonRC> oerjan: I was about to say that
19:16:03 <ehird`> oerjan: we're talking lucid dreams, though
19:16:13 <ehird`> which are distinct from regular dreams
19:16:26 <SimonRC> I would think that the mind-body connection is the same in lucid and real dreaming
19:16:40 <SimonRC> after all, you can move your eyes in both
19:23:04 <ehird`> http://www.virtual-laser-keyboard.com/index.asp <-- GOD DAMNIT YES
19:24:40 <SimonRC> the key weightings on that are shit
19:24:47 <ehird`> it's a laser keyboard damnit
19:24:58 <ehird`> my geek-drive sets in here and replaces logic
19:25:32 <SimonRC> in fact, the key weightings are shitter than if you cut out a set of cardborad squares and laid them out on a layer of used chewing gum.
19:25:51 <SimonRC> (which is waht a certain company's keyboards feel like)
19:25:58 <SimonRC> but yes, very 21st-century
19:25:59 <ehird`> so you have to mash the keys with a hammer or something?
19:26:12 <pikhq> I want 20th-century keyboards.
19:26:13 <ehird`> i want a keyboard that a cat can walk on and cause havoc without even realising
19:26:22 * pikhq wants buckling springs, dammit
19:26:22 <SimonRC> they work reasonably, but feel shit
19:26:32 <ehird`> pikhq: http://steampunkworkshop.com/keyboard.shtml
19:26:44 <SimonRC> I dislike any keyboard weighing less than 5kg.
19:26:48 <pikhq> ehird`: I said "20th-century", not steam-punk.
19:26:59 <SimonRC> if you can't beat someone to death with it, it isn't a Real Keyboard.
19:27:10 <ehird`> SimonRC: apple keyboards are not Real? :(
19:27:17 <SimonRC> there is a steam-punk keyboard
19:27:27 <pikhq> SimonRC: Obviously, you're a fan of the buckling springs as well.
19:27:46 <ehird`> SimonRC: beat you to it
19:27:49 <pikhq> (last I checked, they're solid enough to be used instead of cinder blocks for lifting a car)
19:27:50 * oerjan sometimes wishes this channel had lambdabot's @remember and @quote commands
19:28:06 <ehird`> oerjan: blahbot can have that :)
19:28:11 <SimonRC> a real keyboard should allow hexadactyl people to take advantage of their condition.
19:28:29 <ehird`> which reminds me that i should be working on it Right About Now
19:28:40 <SimonRC> heck, a real keyboard should allow tetramanual people to take advantage of their condition.
19:28:43 <ehird`> although i have not settled on a programming language choice for it yet
19:28:58 <ehird`> this will be the programming language used in an "eval" command if i make one
19:29:01 <ehird`> anyone want to decide for me
19:29:32 <ehird`> pikhq: i don't like tcl :p
19:29:34 <pikhq> Here is how to implement your eval command in any decent language:
19:29:44 <pikhq> ehird`: You actually used Tcl?
19:29:50 <ehird`> and i agree with that eval
19:29:51 <SimonRC> in fact, there is a Haskell Bot called "LambdaBot" which consists almost entirely of loadable modules
19:29:56 <ehird`> SimonRC: i know lambdabot
19:30:02 <ehird`> but i would like to from-scratch this
19:30:12 <ehird`> also i do not know enough haskell, i am not comfortable enough with it
19:30:30 <ehird`> ok come on non-esoteric implementation languages here ;)
19:31:14 <ehird`> do you really want to have to put java in the "eval" command? :P
19:31:28 <SimonRC> how about the thingy that oerjan (or is it oklokok/oklopol) is working on
19:31:48 <ehird`> might as well be esoteric, it's APL-inspired
19:31:50 <ehird`> also very hard to parse
19:31:58 <SimonRC> bsmtbombdood: yeah, people with 6 fingers
19:32:30 <ehird`> you can't suggest something normal like python can you ;P
19:32:46 <ehird`> I cannot, reasonably, make an eval command with most of these languages
19:32:51 <SimonRC> C is not *usually* interpreted
19:32:59 <ehird`> SimonRC: yes i am aware
19:33:03 <pikhq> Hrm. A Plof eval command could be tricky. . .
19:33:05 <ehird`> can we be a bit more realistic here
19:33:08 <SimonRC> Forth is ideal for interpretation
19:33:12 <pikhq> GregorR: All in favor of just patching the Plof spec?
19:33:27 <ehird`> i do not like forth or factor
19:33:40 <ehird`> ok, how about an arbitary restriction to have some level of normality:
19:33:41 <pikhq> Oh, wait. That'd *really* bork the Plof compiler. . .
19:33:51 <ehird`> and be valid to pass to an eval() function
19:34:04 <pikhq> That rules out Tcl.
19:34:15 <pikhq> eval expr 2+2, even.
19:34:22 <pikhq> Or even eval + 2 2
19:34:24 <ehird`> i do not like tcl; you see
19:34:31 <ehird`> so it is good that it is ruled out
19:34:34 <pikhq> I do not like them, Sam I Am.
19:34:46 <ehird`> oh god you people are useless
19:34:51 <oerjan> and Haskell. no eval :(
19:34:57 <ehird`> i would just use python, but the expr/statement difference makes things harder
19:35:26 <oerjan> although you can get around it.
19:36:16 <pikhq> Ruby has the Perlesque syntax.
19:36:23 <pikhq> That's *not* a good thing for a language.
19:36:28 <ehird`> but i don't know, blahbot` was in ruby
19:36:31 <ehird`> i guess i want something new
19:36:39 <oerjan> oh yeah, we forgot Perl
19:36:42 <ehird`> Perl... maybe perl 6 only but it is not stable
19:37:11 <ehird`> meh -- i'll go with python
19:37:16 <ehird`> i can work around the difference
19:37:19 <ehird`> and it is elegant and all that crap
19:37:25 <SimonRC> Pythond is almots as bad as befunge for the multi-line thingy
19:37:38 <ehird`> seperate irc lib/bot or combined
19:38:06 <SimonRC> If you are going to re-invent the wheel you should at least make it round
19:38:09 <ehird`> name the irc lib for me so i can name the module :P
19:38:16 <ehird`> and then... Bott or whatever starts
19:39:57 <oerjan> ehird`: is it named after Raoul Bott?
19:40:08 <ehird`> it is just because Bot is too general
19:43:03 <ehird`> actually i don't think I like Bott
19:45:28 <SimonRC> ItCameFromTheFarSideOfTheMoon
19:46:53 <SimonRC> "biab" -- "biab is an IRC bot"
19:47:07 <SimonRC> "biaib" -- "biaib is an IRC bot"
19:48:01 <ehird`> bbiab - "'bbiab becomes intelligent artificially' bot"
19:48:53 <SimonRC> grep bot /usr/share/dict/words
19:49:12 <SimonRC> "grep -i bot /usr/share/dict/words", even
19:50:04 <ehird`> ok this is seriously lame :P
19:50:15 <ehird`> surely thinking of a bot name is not that hard
19:50:34 <ehird`> premise 1. it is all singing and all dancing 2. it does everything and is awesome 3. it also does things like have esoteric language interpreters
19:50:45 <SimonRC> grep -i bot /usr/share/dict/words | sed "s/'s$//" | uniq | less
19:51:04 <oerjan> INTERBOT - aka Bot name with no pronouncable acronym
19:51:37 <ehird`> SimonRC: sabot is taken iirc
19:51:51 <ehird`> SAbot, aka something awful bot, aka the bot in somethingawful.com-related channels in whatever network they are on
19:51:52 <SimonRC> oerjan: I think you mean: "IRC bot with no pronouncible acronym"
19:51:55 <ehird`> my internet knowledge is unlimited
19:52:04 <ehird`> SimonRC: could you exclude th?
19:52:10 <ehird`> you get bother and stuff
19:52:15 <ehird`> and nobody would notice "bot" in that
19:53:10 <bsmtbombdood> heroin, the perfect cure for your morphine addiction!
19:54:46 <ehird`> grep -i bot /usr/share/dict/words | sed -e"s/'s$//" -e"/both/d" | un
19:55:23 <ehird`> no, i think iw ant something that can be capitalized wlel
19:55:58 <ehird`> oh i'll just use a name generator
19:56:24 <ehird`> though most people will mistake it for not-a-bot
19:57:00 <ehird`> (how about Nyskinkelathmor)
19:57:52 <ehird`> i'm using a name generator
19:58:11 <oerjan> ny skinke = new ham in norwegian
19:58:13 <ehird`> i don't think I like that
19:58:17 <ehird`> it's not a pythonic class name
19:58:23 <ehird`> KajirBot is a pythonic classname though
19:59:35 * SimonRC recalls the incident of the StrIB-clock
20:00:07 <SimonRC> There was a guy on one channel I frequented called "strib"
20:00:23 <SimonRC> he set things up so his username changed every hour to match the hour in binary
20:00:40 <SimonRC> (by the cases of the letters)
20:01:12 <ehird`> how did it not last long?
20:01:23 <SimonRC> people got irritated with it
20:02:04 <SimonRC> not as bad as the SimonC-clock though
20:02:14 <SimonRC> that changed every minute to match the minute
20:03:05 <SimonRC> as if the guy with a 31-letter username were not already unpopular enough
20:03:34 <ehird`> ok, seriously, i just want a bot name
20:03:48 <ehird`> that is short, is a pythonic class name, and in some way indicates that it is not a real user
20:03:49 <SimonRC> "KajirBot" looked good to me
20:03:58 <ehird`> it just might be a bit too long
20:04:07 <bsmtbombdood> "a system where it scans the I.P address and cross-references it with the I.P. directory."
20:04:13 <SimonRC> call the class k if you are that worried
20:04:30 <bsmtbombdood> http://www.maltastar.com/pages/msFullArt.asp?an=14323
20:05:02 <ehird`> ok, now name the irc lib ;)
20:05:15 <ehird`> in this case, we want a pythonic package name
20:05:22 <ehird`> that is, preferably completely lowercase
20:05:36 <ehird`> it should include the word irc in it
20:05:55 <ehird`> and preferably not mention Kajir directly - though i may relax this if a really good one is suggested
20:05:55 <SimonRC> bsmtbombdood: I think they mean the allocations made by IANA and friends.
20:06:19 <bsmtbombdood> I want to know how it gets IP addresses from wikipedia
20:06:19 <SimonRC> IANA.org will allow you to get an index to look up who owns what (maybe indirectly)
20:06:41 <SimonRC> bsmtbombdood: every anonymous edit record the IP address
20:07:03 <SimonRC> there is also a talk page for some IP addresses
20:07:25 <ehird`> kajirc is the best so far but KajirBot is uppercase
20:07:29 <ehird`> so it could be confusing
20:08:23 <ehird`> what is that meant to mean
20:09:06 <ehird`> maybe i should just call it pythonirc
20:15:01 <ehird`> i onloy need two votes :p
20:16:45 <ehird`> if nobody responds, its kajirc
20:19:45 <ehird`> you want me to call it feetz? :P
20:20:15 <oerjan> i thought we were restricted to two options at this stage
20:20:46 <ehird`> i just want one or two more people to vote for either kajirc, pythonirc, or something else that is really good
20:26:13 <ehird`> bsmtbombdood: do you mind if i reference bsmnt_bot for purposes of design?
20:37:23 <ehird`> BIG DECISION 2: what command prefix?
20:37:27 <ehird`> i can't decide which is easiest
20:40:28 <ehird`> ~ is taken by bsmnt_bot
20:40:35 <ehird`> #blah could lead to false positives
20:40:51 <ehird`> but @ is more conventional and less false positives
20:41:00 <c|p> . or ! imo
20:41:29 <c|p> who cares about egobot
20:41:43 <ehird`> every time Kajir would run something egobot would go "Huh?"
20:41:59 <c|p> then that's egobot's problem
20:42:22 <ehird`> its obvious it would be banned asap
20:42:31 <ehird`> # is quite often used at start of sentences
20:42:37 <ehird`> does any bot in here use @
20:43:08 <oerjan> what does oklobot use?
20:43:52 -!- bsmtbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:44:05 <oerjan> just as long as you keep it out of #haskell :)
20:44:51 -!- bsmtbombdood has joined.
20:44:55 <oerjan> i suppose non-haskell related bots wouldn't be welcome there anyhow
20:45:05 <ehird`> bsmtbombdood: we are having tremendous difficulty deciding on a command prefix
20:45:16 <ehird`> ! was suggested, but you are about to see why it is not possible
20:46:30 <ehird`> takes too long to type
20:46:39 <oerjan> you really want a space in front don't you?
20:47:16 <oerjan> well what was wrong with >?
20:47:26 <ehird`> ok i typed a lot of crap
20:47:30 <ehird`> those aer all viable command prefixes.
20:47:43 <c|p> why not ` , or .
20:47:46 <ehird`> > just didn't look right
20:47:48 <c|p> easy to use
20:47:48 <ehird`> >quote oerjan well what was wrong with >?
20:47:58 <ehird`> `quote clp why not ` , or .
20:48:12 <ehird`> .quote clp why not `, or .
20:48:19 <ehird`> .quote oerjan well what was wrong with >?
20:48:22 <ehird`> .quote clp easy to use
20:49:04 <ehird`> bsmtbombdood: i can't find irc_bot.py
20:53:16 * oerjan wonders what the correct response to kthx is. yrwcm?
20:54:20 <ehird`> bsmtbombdood: what is self.raw("CAPAB :IDENTIFY-MSG")
20:55:31 <oerjan> perhaps it's a way to ask the server how to identify your nick?
20:56:42 <ehird`> "How can I tell when someone might be spoofing a user's identity? If your client supports CAPAB IDENTIFY-MSG, you can configure it to let you know when someone speaking on channel or via /msg is not identified to services. If you want other people using this feature to know that you're you, have your client /msg nickserv identify yourpasswordhere automatically when you connect to the network. "
20:59:14 <bsmtbombdood> weird, because i don't remember putting it there or know what it dos
20:59:36 <ehird`> self.nick = self.nick # heh
20:59:42 <ehird`> that calls the property setter after connecting
21:00:31 <ehird`> self.nick is a property
21:00:49 <ehird`> those fancy things that lets getting and setting a variable be a function call
21:00:51 <ehird`> but with the same syntax
21:01:18 <ehird`> self.nick is set before connection
21:01:23 <ehird`> so to make it actually send NICK :x at the start
21:01:27 <ehird`> self.nick= must be called
21:01:31 <ehird`> thus self.nick = self.nick
21:01:46 <ehird`> maybe i should have set_nick instead
21:01:51 <ehird`> so self.nick/self.set_nick
21:02:01 <ehird`> does that seem more explicit and nice to you?
21:02:49 <ehird`> bsmtbombdood: could you get bsmnt_bot in here? i need to test something with it
21:03:40 <ehird`> anyone have a bsmnt_bot derived bot?
21:12:50 -!- bsmtbombdood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
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21:19:17 <oklokok> (21:21:37) (ehird`) http://www.virtual-laser-keyboard.com/index.asp <-- GOD DAMNIT YES
21:19:17 <oklokok> (21:23:14) (SimonRC) the key weightings on that are shit
21:19:28 <oklokok> if it's qwerty, how can it get worse?
21:19:50 <oklokok> also, i'm gonna buy that for my palmtop if it's compatible
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21:47:15 <oklokok> (22:42:03) (ehird`) >>> command
21:47:15 <oklokok> (22:42:07) (ehird`) which is stupid
21:47:26 <oklokok> it's very clever, actually
21:48:47 <ehird`> KajirBot: you can't do anything just yet
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21:52:31 <oklokok> ehird`: actually, it's pretty clever
21:53:00 <ehird`> (what do i name a call_callbacks function :P)
21:53:02 <oklokok> how is it not the greatest bot prefix ever?
21:53:33 <ehird`> because it is too verbose
21:53:40 <oklokok> i was first thinking "[}-", just for the heck of it
21:54:08 <oklokok> being concise isn't one of the criteria
21:54:31 <oklokok> it need be long, so that people know they're using it
21:54:38 <oklokok> yeah, i think that's quite pretty
21:54:42 <ehird`> . is KajirBot's prefix
21:54:51 <oklokok> or "[--]::", why not that one?
21:54:56 <ehird`> i would do a middot if anyone had middot keys
21:55:16 <ehird`> incidentally, KajirBot will make EgoBot and bsmnt_bot and all of those unneccessary :)
21:56:00 <ehird`> it will do everything from evaluating python code, to running various esolangs, to searching google, to having a useless but fun pseudo-AI to respond to stuff
21:56:17 <ehird`> <KajirBot> some markov chain stuff or something relating to hello
21:57:34 <ehird`> it'll be like the lambdabot of the esoteric world
21:57:39 <ehird`> except it'll have non-esoteric stuff too
21:57:47 <ehird`> it'll have a quote system of course
21:57:51 <ehird`> and maybe a notes system
21:59:27 <ehird`> do you see how every other bot shall be obsolete? ;)
22:01:18 <oklokok> bots aren't here for their use
22:01:25 <oklokok> they are here because we love them
22:01:37 <ehird`> KajirBot will be lovable
22:01:45 <ehird`> you can .feed kajirbot and he will thank you
22:01:52 <ehird`> he will thank you even more if you .feed him a food he likes
22:01:56 <oklokok> so cute i'm almost crying :)
22:02:09 <oklokok> i'll be feeding him till excess flood
22:02:47 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: *cough*~exec
22:03:01 <ehird`> .eval will be not used much
22:03:11 <ehird`> i will include, maybe, an s-exp syntax for python
22:03:35 <ehird`> (if expr x y) translates to if expr: x else: y but with indentation and tabs and stuff
22:04:01 <ehird`> (re.match r"(?P<int>\d+)\.(\d*)" "3.14")
22:04:14 <bsmntbombdood> if you do that, you have to include a macro system
22:04:26 <ehird`> (= matches re.match r"(?P<int>\d+)\.(\d*)" "3.14") (if matches (stuff) (stuff))
22:04:31 <ehird`> python doesn't have macros though
22:04:40 <ehird`> i mean, the above can be translated very very simply to python
22:04:53 <ehird`> (= matches (re.match r"(?P<int>\d+)\.(\d*)" "3.14")) (if matches (stuff) (stuff))
22:05:19 <ehird`> matches = re.match(r"(?P<int>\d+)\.(\d*)", "3.14")\nif matches:\n\tstuff\nelse:\n\tstuff
22:05:30 <ehird`> see, directly translatable
22:05:51 -!- KajirBot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:05:58 * ehird` tests callbacks in kajirbot
22:06:03 <ehird`> kajirc is very elegant :)
22:06:19 <ehird`> it is very much like bsmnt_bot's core
22:10:45 -!- KajirBot has joined.
22:11:43 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: do you think one thread per callback is good?
22:11:47 <ehird`> i think one thread per line
22:11:52 <ehird`> so you can handle multiple lines at a time
22:11:56 <ehird`> but callbacks for a line are in sequence
22:12:03 <ehird`> for threads with callbacks
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22:25:04 <ehird`> do you not understand me?
22:25:18 <ehird`> he's now at bsmntbombdood AI level
22:25:18 <KajirBot> he's now at bsmntbombdood AI level?
22:25:19 -!- KajirBot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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22:39:44 <ehird`> but soon he will be thanking people for feeding him
22:40:41 <oklokok> i know, i'm eagerly waiting
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22:42:06 <ehird`> ^:([^!]+)!n=([^@]+)@([^ ]+) PRIVMSG ([^ ]+) :(.feed)$
22:42:18 <ehird`> one, two, three, FOUR groups
22:42:22 <ehird`> now let's see what's wrong
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22:43:52 <ololobot> ...uuh, feed my need with thy seed...
22:43:54 -!- KajirBot has joined.
22:44:18 <ololobot> ...uuh, feed my need with thy seed...
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22:45:31 <doubleplop> oklopol, how did that bot of yours run b00tstrap_?
22:45:43 <ehird`> KajirBot works and stuff!
22:45:55 <ehird`> hey, how often are lines starting with . used in this channel?
22:46:10 <ehird`> i might make .unknown give a helpful "hey, i'm not broken but WTF is that command" message
22:46:28 <bsmntbombdood> there's more of those than there are lines starting with .~!!#@foo$$
22:46:58 <ololobot> i was fed penis and i kinda liked it
22:47:07 <ololobot> i was fed my brother and i kinda liked it
22:47:12 <ololobot> i was fed pizza and i kinda liked it
22:47:16 <ehird`> doesn't he like ANYTHING lots?
22:47:29 <ololobot> i was fed SimonRC and i kinda liked it
22:48:52 <ololobot> i was fed SimonRC and i kinda liked it
22:49:46 <ololobot> i was fed SimonRC and i kinda liked it
22:50:04 <ololobot> i was fed SimonRC and i orgasmed twice
22:50:11 <ololobot> i was fed pizza and i kinda liked it
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22:50:29 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got chocolate?
22:50:34 <oklopol> that's the extent of that command
22:50:37 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got chocolate?
22:50:38 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got pizza?
22:50:39 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got pizza?
22:50:40 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got botfood?
22:51:02 <oklopol> i assumed you'd done state
22:51:12 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got botfood?
22:51:26 <oklopol> that it actually wants exactly what it asks for
22:51:39 <ehird`> like, first it tries a random one
22:51:43 <ehird`> then it asks for it until it gets it?
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22:57:22 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got botfood?
22:57:25 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got botfood?
22:57:26 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got botfood?
22:57:28 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got botfood?
22:57:33 <KajirBot> sorry, i haven't eaten asdadasdklasdj before. have you got botfood?
22:57:38 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got botfood?
22:57:49 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got chocolate?
22:58:13 <ehird`> right now his food list is just pizza,chocolate,botfood
22:58:18 <ehird`> gimme random stuff to add :p
22:59:26 <ehird`> self? glass? you are odd :p
22:59:44 <ehird`> also, it has to fit into a "but have you got X" construction
23:00:19 -!- KajirBot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:00:23 <ehird`> updated the list a bit
23:00:30 -!- KajirBot has joined.
23:00:33 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got botfood?
23:00:36 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got sushi?
23:00:39 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got chocolate?
23:00:42 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got pizza?
23:00:46 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got chicken?
23:00:47 <oklokok> omg that's like the greatest game of all times :O
23:00:49 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got chocolate?
23:00:53 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got chocolate?
23:01:01 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got pizza?
23:01:04 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got pizza?
23:01:06 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got sushi?
23:01:09 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got sushi?
23:01:15 <oklokok> now, how to actually make it a game: it likes those who've fed it the most
23:01:15 <ehird`> damnit, get another request
23:01:16 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got pizza?
23:01:21 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got binary bytes?
23:01:23 <oklokok> also, great way to get ops pissed.
23:01:33 <ehird`> so there are its eating habits
23:01:55 <ehird`> oklokok: where should this likability display itself?
23:02:18 <oklokok> it could do actions like /me rubs itself against X
23:02:42 <oklokok> you'd get kinkier stuff for more points ;)
23:03:07 <ehird`> maybe, if enough people feed it without giving it the food it wants
23:03:12 <ehird`> it goes grumpy for a few minutes?
23:03:19 <ehird`> and goes ":(" before executing anything?
23:03:33 <oklokok> it could just stop responding if it's not hungry
23:03:40 <ehird`> no that could be really annoying
23:04:21 <ehird`> how about the .question
23:04:28 <ehird`> repeats x as a question
23:04:31 <ehird`> kinda like a stupid ai
23:06:16 <oklokok> .question X, where X is a number
23:06:40 <oklokok> so it'll even look a bit like AI
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23:08:41 <ehird`> ^:([^!]+)!n=([^@]+)@([^ ]+) PRIVMSG ([^ ]+) :(.q (.+))$
23:09:05 <ehird`> stop ripping off KajirBot :(
23:09:09 -!- KajirBot has joined.
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23:10:46 <oklokok> i guess it'd be too much if i did that before you could ;)
23:12:02 -!- KajirBot has joined.
23:12:06 <oklokok> okay, you've got one try before i make it :)
23:12:35 -!- KajirBot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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23:12:46 <ehird`> instead of re.I or re.IGNORECASE
23:12:54 <ehird`> TypeError: sub() takes at least 3 arguments (2 given)
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23:14:13 <ehird`> this time it will work :/
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23:14:42 <ehird`> shouldn't (^| ) work fine?
23:16:25 <oklokok> i don't know how to regex-replace in python
23:18:46 <oklokok> i'm doing the replace in a roundabout way
23:18:54 <ehird`> you said you wouldn't copy KajirBot
23:19:19 <ehird`> no you didn't say that :/
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23:19:56 <ehird`> oklokok: get rid of q please it's just a dup of .q
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23:20:27 <ehird`> you'll need to wait a second bsmntbombdood
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23:21:15 <ehird`> if it doesn't work now
23:21:20 -!- KajirBot has joined.
23:22:25 <ehird`> ok i think i've got it
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23:23:43 <ehird`> ... is that automatic, clp
23:23:44 <pikhq> .q does your parser suck
23:23:51 <ehird`> .q no, but the replacements do...
23:23:51 <KajirBot> no, but the replacements do...?
23:24:18 <ehird`> return re.sub(re.compile(r' %s ' % word, re.I),
23:24:18 <ehird`> r' %s ' % replacement, ' %s ' % q)[1:-1]
23:24:21 <ehird`> is the code to replace a word
23:24:36 <ehird`> oklokok: i manually make it two-way
23:24:41 <ehird`> are -> am then am -> are
23:24:56 <oklokok> this is why i had trouble making it
23:25:03 <ehird`> you just have to replace it with a tmp value
23:25:07 <ehird`> like ""@"@"£@£)@I£_)@I£_)@£ or something
23:25:14 <oklokok> i can show you my pythons...
23:25:55 <oklokok> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p115141533.txt
23:26:10 <oklokok> that's not a good way to do it, but i had to make it in < 40 sec, so...
23:26:36 <oklokok> i guess it took more like a minute, but anyway, didn't really have time to think :P
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23:29:07 <oklokok> does KajirBot respond to sender, or to this chan?
23:29:09 -!- KajirBot has joined.
23:29:15 <oklokok> i guess i could check myselg
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23:30:30 <oklokok> how do you try getting around the circularity?
23:30:37 <ehird`> oklokok: same way as you
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23:30:42 <ehird`> i will improve it later
23:31:03 <ehird`> .q How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a wouldchuck could chuck wood?
23:31:03 <KajirBot> How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a wouldchuck could chuck wood?
23:31:16 <ehird`> .q do you know what pi to 10 decimal places?
23:31:16 <KajirBot> do I know what pi to 10 decimal places?
23:31:48 <ehird`> .q roses are dead, violets are blue, all my base, are belong to you
23:31:49 <KajirBot> roses am dead, violets am blue, all my base, am belong to I?
23:33:14 <ehird`> it just doesn't like you
23:33:50 <ehird`> it matches n=blah as ident
23:34:17 <ololobot> bf, bs, expr, help, numbda, pl, ul, dict, feed
23:35:28 <ololobot> lol, this, is, teh, all, helpz, you, gonna, get, :, bf, bs, expr, help, numbda, pl, ul, dict, feed
23:37:32 <ololobot> These are all the cmds currently in ololobot:
23:37:32 <ololobot> bf, bs, expr, help, numbda, pl, ul, dict, feed
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23:40:47 <ehird`> sorting the command list.
23:40:53 -!- KajirBot has joined.
23:40:57 <ehird`> so i have two fun commands
23:41:12 -!- KajirBot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:41:22 -!- KajirBot has joined.
23:41:24 <ehird`> .q what should I add next?
23:41:32 <ehird`> .q I don't know! What SHOULD I ask next?
23:41:32 <KajirBot> you don't know! What SHOULD you ask next?
23:42:26 <oklokok> >>> bs 33<11<=!Hello> world>:
23:43:11 <oklokok> make an el interpreter, there can never be enough debug flood on a channel
23:43:57 <ehird`> i want something more useful :/
23:44:05 <ehird`> i mean, what did blahbot have?
23:44:07 <ehird`> someone check their logs
23:44:30 <oklokok> you could make it gogulate
23:44:47 <ehird`> clp: TURN THAT FUCKING SCRIPT OFF
23:45:01 <oklokok> c|p: love your script, keep it :)
23:48:10 <oklokok> nothing annoys me, and i enjoy a good flood, so i see where our opinions split
23:48:15 <ehird`> .q Are you a woodchuck who would chuck as much wood as you could, could you chuck wood?
23:48:15 <KajirBot> am I a woodchuck who would chuck as much wood as I could, could I chuck wood?
23:48:20 -!- Svenstaro has left (?).
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23:50:05 <ehird`> FUN FACTS: kajirbot is 74 lines long. kajirc is 113 lines long.
23:50:16 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got botfood?
23:51:14 <ehird`> Should I make info['channel'] the sending user on PMs?
23:51:21 <ehird`> right now it tries and responds to itself
23:53:31 -!- KajirBot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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23:54:02 <ehird`> OK as soon as i register kajirbot...
23:54:49 -!- KajirBot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:54:56 -!- ehird` has changed nick to KajirBot.
23:55:06 -!- KajirBot has changed nick to ehird`.
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23:58:05 <ehird`> kajirbot responds to pms
00:00:44 <oklokok> hmm... how do i see whether someone is identified again?
00:00:50 <oklokok> it'll say that in the whois i guess
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00:04:58 <ehird`> didn't write it yet :p
00:05:03 -!- KajirBot has joined.
00:05:05 <KajirBot> 0. <Thread(Thread-115, started)>
00:05:10 <KajirBot> 0. <Thread(Thread-118, started)>
00:05:11 <KajirBot> 0. <Thread(Thread-121, started)>
00:05:12 <KajirBot> 0. <Thread(Thread-124, started)>
00:05:15 <KajirBot> 0. <Thread(Thread-127, started)>
00:05:15 <KajirBot> 0. <Thread(Thread-130, started)>
00:06:09 -!- KajirBot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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00:06:47 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got chicken?
00:06:47 <KajirBot> 1. <Thread(Thread-125, started)>
00:07:12 <ehird`> should i keep the <Thread(name, status)> display?
00:07:18 <ehird`> or just make it name and maybe name (status)?
00:07:46 <oklokok> you could have the cmd there or smth
00:08:19 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+").
00:08:30 <oklokok> well, you know, i'm a blind idiot.
00:08:47 -!- KajirBot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:08:53 <oklokok> started-stopped, born-dead
00:08:57 -!- KajirBot has joined.
00:09:05 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got pizza?
00:09:31 -!- KajirBot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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00:09:49 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got chocolate?
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00:10:23 <ehird`> i was unconditionally adding (stopped) :P
00:10:26 -!- KajirBot has joined.
00:10:48 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got chicken?
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00:19:01 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got pizza?
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00:22:58 <ehird`> i shall continue tomorrow
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00:43:45 <mudge> what's your esoteric programming language?
00:44:39 <oklokok> the very question is faulty.
00:45:50 <mudge> oh boy, why's that?
00:45:59 <mudge> are we getting esoteric here?
00:46:09 <oklokok> was it targeted to all userlist?
00:46:53 <oklokok> actually, the answer to your question would be nil, there is not esolang we've made collaboratively
00:46:55 <mudge> but I think you're the only one listening so it is targeted specifically to you,
00:47:19 <mudge> so you know how to write compilers?
00:47:27 <oklokok> i've written interpreters.
00:47:50 <mudge> what programming languages do you know?
00:48:03 <mudge> i'm talking to you
00:48:33 <oklokok> i know the names of about a hundred, i guess, i can program in about 15 with google, with about 5 without it
00:48:35 <mudge> well, i guess are familiar with, have at least done some programming in, and is familiar with the syntax and some sematics
00:49:00 <oklokok> i *can* program in many languages i've never programmed in :)
00:49:19 <mudge> have you programmed in Haskell?
00:49:20 <oklokok> i actually knew scheme quite well before dling an interpreter
00:49:40 <oklokok> i can't make hello world, though
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00:49:53 <mudge> do you have a website or blog?
00:50:14 <Sgeo> Hi mudge, hi all
00:50:36 <mudge> what do you do Sgeo?
00:50:43 <oklokok> www.vjn.fi/oklopol may be somewhat of a webpage
00:50:56 <oklokok> that has pretty random content
00:51:09 <oklokok> but it has the thue interpreter, actually
00:51:42 <mudge> for like a living or hobby or whatever
00:51:43 <oklokok> that's the only program i've written in haskell, so it's not that pretty semantically, i assume :)
00:51:48 <oklokok> hope you don't know haskell
00:52:06 <mudge> I'm learning haskell
00:52:12 <oklokok> mudge: because i'm sure that sucks.
00:53:07 <mudge> as long as it is not your main programming language you know really well and have been programming in continuously for years, it's OKAY
00:53:27 <mudge> today I wrote a little tutorial that explains currying in haskell
00:56:24 <mudge> yea, I thought not
00:56:30 <mudge> what do you do pikhq
00:56:52 <pikhq> I code in Tcl, Brainfuck, C, C++, and design esoteric languages for fun.
00:57:10 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
00:57:12 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
00:57:22 <mudge> what is Brainfuck?
00:57:32 <pikhq> oklokok: This channel *has* made its own esoteric language. . .
00:57:45 <oklokok> !bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.+..-.
00:57:59 <pikhq> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Adjudicated_Blind_Collaborative_Design_Esolang_Factory
00:58:18 * Sgeo contributed to that >.>
01:00:41 <oklokok> i didn't know about that, then again i haven't been here for that long
01:00:42 <mudge> anyone want to give me some feedback on a really short tutorial I wrote about currying in Haskell?
01:00:49 <oklokok> for a week, maybe, or a year
01:00:52 <mudge> http://www.nickmudge.info/?post=42
01:04:07 <mudge> you guys ever do any web programming?
01:05:35 <pikhq> Sgeo: So did I. :)
01:06:52 <oklokok> mudge: hard to tell you if that explains currying to someone who doesn't know the concept already, since i did
01:08:09 <mudge> okay, thanks for taking a look at it
01:08:42 <oklokok> i read pretty much anything people paste here :)
01:09:01 <pikhq> I could *express* it. . . /x./y.x
01:09:32 <ololobot> ``s``s`ks``s``s`ks``s`kk`k+``s`kk`k ``s`kk`ky
01:09:47 <oklokok> ...that's one crappy pointlessicator.
01:10:02 <ololobot> ``s``s`ks``s``s`ks``s`kk`k+``s`kki`ki
01:11:04 <mudge> i can express it: add x = \y -> x + y
01:11:44 <mudge> nice meeting you you oklokok and pikhq
01:12:42 <oklokok> >>> numbda add={y->{x->x+y}}
01:12:49 <oklokok> >>> numbda add={y->{x->x+y}};add!1!3
01:13:14 <oklokok> (someday i'll make numbda a scoping xD)
01:15:12 <oklokok> >>> numbda add={y->{x->x+y}};add!1
01:15:12 <ololobot> lazy:[apply opr:-> to id:x(2) and [apply opr:+ to id:x(2) and id:y(1)]]
01:19:17 <c|p> i guess my script got triggered a few times
01:21:11 <oklokok> make it what?->WHAT? rather
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02:09:32 * Figs mumbles something about a song...
02:09:37 <Figs> it's 6 pm here :P
02:10:16 <oklokok> i don't really have any free time for about a month...
02:10:28 <oklokok> this is all theory, of course, i've been idling for the last 4 hours.
02:10:45 <oklokok> but there's no free time i can afford.
02:11:11 <oklokok> gotta read some 12 books and do a lot of exercises
02:12:52 <oklokok> i haven't even really been ircing for a few hours, just staring at the screen
02:13:40 <oklokok> >>> numbda a={a->a!4};a!{a->a+1}
02:14:47 <oklokok> you'd think it'd break down at that
02:16:00 <Figs> just say you ain't gonna do it, and I'll stop bugging you about it ^_^
02:16:28 <Figs> otherwise I'll keep bugging you ^_^
02:16:37 <oklokok> i'd have to admit it to myself before i'd have any chance at admitting it to you.
02:16:49 <oklokok> i don't see any chance of that happening
02:16:52 <Figs> I'll keep bugging you then
02:17:16 <oklokok> please do, i might actually remember it if constantly reminded
02:17:38 <Figs> so have you played it yet? :D
02:17:47 * Figs reminds you again ... just for the humor
02:17:58 <Figs> anyway, what's up?
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02:18:14 <oklokok> i have a course where i have to read 8 books
02:18:28 <Figs> I have like 80 million projects
02:18:28 <oklokok> read one yesterday and one the day before that
02:18:48 <Figs> well, you're making progress :D
02:18:59 <Figs> I have no idea how to finish building these things
02:19:08 <oklokok> i didn't read much today, 43 pages of swedish grammar
02:19:16 <oklokok> i'll have to catch up tomorrow
02:19:33 <oklokok> (or today actually, since it's 4:17)
02:21:11 <Figs> hi RodgerTheGreat
02:21:14 <oklokok> i shouldn't've remembered numbda, now i can't do anything tomorrow without fixing it first :<
02:21:19 <Figs> or is that Goodbye?
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02:22:28 <oklokok> i don't know esperanto, but i don't think it's as good as lojban
02:22:54 <oklokok> lojban isn't built by making natural languages regular
02:23:08 <Figs> Kiel vi (fartas)?
02:23:23 <Figs> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto
02:25:12 <oklokok> http://vjn.fi/s/$anasto.txt
02:25:22 <oklokok> wish volimo would make a tutorial soon
02:25:55 <oklokok> a conlang by a friend of mine
02:26:07 <oklokok> owns esperanto by a long shot
02:26:48 <oklokok> (i have no idea if that's true, but you gotta praise stuff ppl you know have done)
02:27:03 <Figs> you see the guide to making conlangs?
02:27:15 <Figs> lemme see if I can find it again...
02:28:06 <Figs> http://www.zompist.com/kit.html
02:30:04 <Figs> I found this years ago
02:30:07 <Figs> apparently it's still up
02:30:14 <oklokok> i'm pretty sure i've seen it before
02:30:16 <Figs> "The Language Construction Kit is 1996 by Mark Rosenfelder."
02:30:21 <Figs> gives you an idea...
02:30:33 <Figs> I'm trying to say, I doubt it'll go anywhere ;)
02:30:44 <oklokok> luckily conlang creation doesn't get old :)
02:30:50 <Figs> seeing as it's been around for 11 years
02:31:53 <oklokok> i actually had an idea for a conlang of my own just todea
02:33:15 <oklokok> actually it was an idea for how to start making one :)
02:33:36 <oklokok> which isn't really that interesting, so forget that
02:33:50 <oklokok> god i like doing meaningless stuff with that
02:34:22 <oklokok> oklotalk-style type convention
02:34:42 <oklokok> well, actually in numbda it's not just a convention, but integrated in the language
02:35:03 <Figs> >>> numbda 4//4
02:35:18 <Figs> >>> numbda "44" + 2
02:35:38 <Figs> just wanted to see what your bot would do on random input
02:36:07 <oklokok> don't know why that didn't output one
02:36:29 <ololobot> error:no-such-variable:sdf(-1)
02:36:41 <ololobot> error:syntax:multiple-adjacent-objokens
02:36:46 <ololobot> error:syntax:operator-should-not-end-expression
02:37:07 <ololobot> error:syntax:multiple-adjacent-objokens
02:37:44 <oklokok> how many languages do you know where a parsing error doesn't prevent evaluation?
02:38:23 <oklokok> >>> numbda 5+(i guess this could be a comment or smth)+4
02:38:36 <Figs> >>> bf ~++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
02:38:44 <oklokok> in BF, non-bf characters aren't exactly errors.
02:38:49 <oklokok> they are allowed by the spec
02:39:17 <ololobot> error:syntax:multiple-adjacent-objokens
02:39:20 <ololobot> error:syntax:multiple-adjacent-objokens
02:39:25 <ololobot> error:syntax:multiple-adjacent-objokens
02:39:27 <ololobot> error:syntax:multiple-adjacent-objokens
02:39:53 <pikhq> Bot's broken; it doesn't warn on mismatched brackets.
02:40:15 <oklokok> bf *doesn't* evaluate borked code
02:40:24 <oklokok> pikhq: it has no error output
02:42:37 <oklokok> guess i should make a better one.
02:44:44 <Figs> it's funny how many people online ask "what's a wanker?" O_o
02:45:43 <Figs> random forum people
02:45:50 <Figs> people in other chat rooms
02:46:13 <Figs> any time UK English comes up
02:46:15 <oklokok> i hate python, everything works without any debugging
02:49:18 <oklokok> i doubt any american over 15 yo. can have missed that word
02:49:28 <oklokok> everyone knows it in finland.
02:49:38 <Figs> It's not used much in the US
02:49:47 <oklokok> it's not used *ever* in finland.
02:50:16 <oklokok> hmm... we might see more british broadcast than you
02:51:11 * Figs bashes oklokok on the head with a rock and sees if he sleeps better...
02:51:31 <oklokok> the old rock-in-the-head is always welcome
02:51:38 <Figs> concentrate on not concentrating on anything
02:51:41 <oklokok> god the fan is hurting my eyes
04:24:29 <Figs> An excerpt from brilliant Kentucky state legislation. "No female shall appear in a bathing suit on any highway within this state unless she be escorted by at least two officers or unless she be armed with a club".
04:24:29 <Figs> The following important amendment however is to be considered here: "The provisions of this statute shall not apply to females weighing less than 90 pounds nor exceeding 200 pounds, nor shall it apply to male horses."
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12:59:44 <KajirBot> thanks :) but have you got chicken?
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13:51:01 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
13:51:03 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
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14:44:29 <KajirBot> feed, help, kill, ps, q, reload
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15:16:14 <KajirBot> date|time, feed, help, kill, ps, q
15:16:37 <ehird`> ok, question: .date or .time ;p
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15:36:19 <KajirBot> Right now, it is 2007-35-08/19/07 15:08
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15:36:53 <ehird`> idea: negaquaternary machine ;)
15:36:55 <KajirBot> Right now, it is 2007-36-19 15:08 GMT
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15:37:30 <KajirBot> Right now, it is 2007-08-19 15:36 GMT
15:37:37 <ehird`> Right now, it is 2007-08-19, 15:36 GMT
15:37:40 <ehird`> Right now, it is 2007-08-19, 15:36 (GMT)
15:37:43 <ehird`> Right now, it is 2007-08-19 15:36 (GMT)
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15:38:37 <KajirBot> Right now, it is 2007-08-19, 15:37 GMT
15:53:22 <KajirBot> Displays the current date and time.
15:53:43 <ehird`> .q Do you think that the time is 15:52?
15:53:44 <KajirBot> Do I think that the time is 15:52?
15:53:47 <KajirBot> Right now, it is 2007-08-19, 15:52 GMT
16:46:40 <oklokok> i have no idea what to add
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16:46:53 <ehird`> what could blahbot do again?
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17:11:00 <ehird`> when did you last see blahbot around
17:11:49 <oklokok> clog is there for situations like this :)
17:12:01 <oklokok> although it might only log esoteric conversations.
17:16:51 <ehird`> quit, eval, ps, kill, cmds, help, reload, join, part, send, topic, raw, bf, parse, reduce, wapr (use %help for argument information)
17:18:12 <ehird`> wapr is Jumping to -1 is exciting
17:18:22 <ehird`> reduce is a very broken lambdacalculus reduction command
17:18:31 <ehird`> parse echoes the BF code you give it, it was to check my parser was ok
17:23:41 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
17:23:43 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
17:23:57 <EgoBot> Use: i <pid> <input> Function: send input to a process
17:24:11 <ehird`> is that like... used for brainfuck?
17:24:52 <oerjan> although daemons are usually more convenient
17:25:09 <ehird`> i just sent info to a bf process
17:26:42 <ehird`> i'm going to implement that
17:26:47 <ehird`> i am going to play Enimga
17:26:52 <ehird`> because i just remembered that game
17:27:00 <ehird`> from these logs: http://ircbrowse.com/channel/esoteric/20061206
17:27:04 <ehird`> it's an opensource puzzle game thing
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17:30:01 <oklokok> i'm pretty sure that's the log i was reading when i decided to peek in on this chan for the first time
17:30:05 <ehird`> you guide a little ball around with your mouse and have to avoid traps and smash oxyd stones to turn on lights
17:30:50 <oklokok> "<lament> he used to hang out here but sadly disappeared :(" <<< i read this line and though why am i not hanging out there
17:31:23 <ehird`> i've only been in here, how long?
17:32:04 <oklokok> i have no idea how long i've been here
17:32:29 <ehird`> so not earlier than then
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17:53:57 <oklokok> >>> numbda va=4;fb={a->va+a};fc={a->fb!a};fc!7
17:54:06 <ehird`> that looks like oklotalk
17:54:32 <oklokok> that's numbda, it's very different, just similar lambda syntax
17:54:43 <oklokok> actually, even that isn't that close
17:55:11 <oerjan> almost, but not entirely unlike oklotalk?
17:55:49 <oklokok> it's similar in that it *is* a programming language: )
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17:56:34 <oklokok> i'm trying to fixify it now, so it's tc
17:57:08 <oklokok> it looks like it's tc now, but if recursed, it's fuck up
17:57:37 <oklokok> i love it how my typoes always look like borked english
17:57:51 <ehird`> how do i do a conditional?
17:58:17 <oklokok> you do conditional with high-order functions
17:58:23 <oklokok> which i haven't written yet
17:58:29 <ehird`> i was going to try factorial
17:58:52 <oklokok> you can't recurse, but you can do trivial formulas of course
17:59:20 <oklokok> well, you couldn't recurse anyway without any branching :P
18:01:24 <ehird`> i want to add a game of some sorts to KajirBot
18:02:04 <oklokok> bah, i would have to make lists first... this isn't a 10 min job i'm afraid...
18:02:34 <oklokok> all functions take 1 argument, and the primitive functions do not curry
18:03:04 <ehird`> oklokok: make them curry
18:03:43 <oklokok> if!cond!then!else is one possibility
18:08:08 <ololobot> Scheme interpreter-to-be. This is a reminder to oklopol.
18:08:28 <oklokok> some day i'll do something...
18:08:56 <oklokok> i'll go read some swedish grammar, hf and such ->
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19:41:27 * pikhq goes for cond?then:else
19:49:43 <oklokok> hmm... so "?" check larg's bool value and creates on "true", a function that takes two args curried, and evaluates the first, discards the next, and on "false", a function that discards first and evaluates second, both these functions take 2 functions as args, where the functions are "then" and "else". it then gives that function "else" as arg. ":" is a synonym for "!", or function application, but it has a lower precedence.
19:49:55 <oklokok> guess that's how i'll do it.
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19:50:16 <ehird`> pikhq: what do you think an esoteric bot needs?
19:50:20 <ehird`> oklokok: : being synonym for !
19:50:30 <ehird`> pikhq: like, what language priority? and what extra features?
19:50:52 <oklokok> ehird`: tell me a better way to do it.
19:51:24 <oklokok> no, i won't add trinary operators in the language, that'd be stupid
19:51:38 <ehird`> oklokok: just don't haev :
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19:52:07 <oklokok> that has the highest precedence
19:52:33 <oklokok> well, highest right after ".", but that doesn't exist yet
19:53:18 <oklokok> : could of course be used to make lists
19:53:34 <oklokok> then ? would function more clearly
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19:54:03 <oklokok> but i kinda liked that hack, because it'd be the C ?:-function, but you could rape it if you knew what it *actually* meant :)
19:54:35 <pikhq> ehird`: It needs to support everything EgoBot does.
19:54:45 <ehird`> pikhq: Yes, but I mean the highest priority ones
19:54:49 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
19:54:51 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
19:55:04 <pikhq> Brainfuck, glass, lambda, unlambda. . .
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19:58:32 <ehird`> fuck you[end of output]
19:58:55 <ehird`> pikhq: How flexible should BF be?
19:59:02 <ehird`> Do i really need all 8,16,32,64?
19:59:16 <ehird`> error: you are an idiot
20:00:48 <ehird`> this is not your personal irp playground
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20:01:35 <ehird`> i'm going to use an external interp
20:01:38 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
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20:02:13 <oklokok> i'll add wrapping to mine, i think it's bignum now
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20:06:38 <oklokok> this just cannot work right away
20:07:09 <oklokok> >>> bf W70++++++++[>++++++++<-]>++.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.
20:07:53 <oklokok> >>> bf W70++++++++[>++++++++<-]>++.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.
20:08:07 <oklokok> >>> bf W70++++++++[>++++++++<-]>++.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.
20:08:10 -!- desp has joined.
20:08:17 <ololobot> These are all the cmds currently in ololobot:
20:08:17 <ololobot> bf, bs, expr, help, numbda, pl, ul, dict, feed, sch
20:08:44 <oklokok> >>> bf W70++++++++[>++++++++<-]>++.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.
20:08:59 <oklokok> >>> bf W70++++++++[>++++++++<-]>++.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.
20:09:38 <ololobot> -> [['i', ('s', 'i', 'i')], ['i', ('s', 'i', 'i')]]
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20:10:27 <pikhq> oklokok: Just do a wrapper around egobfi.
20:10:48 <oklokok> ```sii``sii <<< should be an infinite loop right?
20:10:55 <oklokok> pikhq: what would that accomplish?
20:11:19 <pikhq> Easy to get 8 bit, 16 bit, etc. cells.
20:11:51 <oklokok> pikhq: what would that accomplish?
20:11:54 -!- ehird` has quit.
20:12:18 <oklokok> ```s.i.i``s.i.i <<< should be an infinite loop right?
20:12:23 -!- desp has left (?).
20:12:54 <oklokok> >>> bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
20:13:05 -!- ololobot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:13:28 -!- ololobot has joined.
20:13:34 <oklokok> >>> bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
20:14:01 <oklokok> >>> bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
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20:14:21 <ololobot> These are all the cmds currently in ololobot:
20:14:21 <ololobot> bf, bs, expr, help, numbda, pl, ul, dict, feed, sch
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20:15:28 <oklokok> now work or be erased source-wise.
20:15:30 <oklokok> >>> bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
20:16:03 <oklokok> >>> bff ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
20:17:01 <oklokok> >>> bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
20:17:10 <oklokok> >>> bf W70++++++++[>++++++++<-]>++.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.
20:17:15 <oklokok> >>> bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
20:17:37 <oklokok> >>> bf W70++++++++[>++++++++<-]>++.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.
20:18:25 <oklokok> >>> bf W70++++++++[>++++++++<-]>++.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.
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20:18:56 <oklokok> >>> bf W70++++++++[>++++++++<-]>++.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.
20:19:14 <oklokok> >>> bf W70++++++++[>++++++++<-]>++.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.
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20:20:01 <oklokok> i made a programming error... i thought i'd grown past that (:P)
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20:25:27 <raldi_> Could someone increment the accumulator?
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20:25:42 <torpor> please someone tell someone else something
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20:30:45 <acad> Could someone please land the space shuttle?
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20:32:14 <gwern> Please, could someone print to the channel an integer that disproves the Goldback conjecture?
20:32:18 <raldi_> acad: please submit that with a & at the end, or else nobody else can make any requests until it's done
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20:34:15 <r2q2> Please list the first 20 primes?
20:35:07 <littlebayer> r2q2: 1' 2' 3' 4' 5' 6' 7' 8' 9' 10' 11' 12' 13' 14' 15' 16'17' 18' 19' 20'
20:37:16 <NMajik> Ew, that didn't make sense...
20:37:53 <oklokok> the irpquistadors have arrived
20:37:54 <gwern> someone needs to patch NMajik - goldbach's conjecture is for even integers bigger than 2...
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20:39:02 <r2q2> Please someone write the hyperfactorial of 5.
20:40:28 <oklokok> i hoped it'd mean 1^2^3^4^5
20:41:18 <gwern> hyperfactorial 5 is actually more in the thousands range
20:41:36 <oklokok> >>> expr 1*2**2*3**3*4**4*5**5
20:41:52 -!- littlebayer has left (?).
20:41:54 <oklokok> >>> expr 1*(2**2)*(3**3)*(4**4)*(5**5)
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20:43:00 <r2q2> Thank you IRP people.
20:43:54 <r2q2> I am a well of cum??? EWW.
20:46:05 -!- NMajik has left (?).
20:46:37 <r2q2> Wait. Welcome.
20:50:26 -!- shing` has joined.
20:51:19 <shing`> Please, someone tell me if IRP is still around?
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20:55:04 <p3k> Please somebody write Graham's Number.
20:57:11 <oklokok> why don't you irpers pair up?
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20:58:40 <shing`> G = F64(4) where f(n) = hyper(3, n+2, 3) and hyper() is the hyper operator.
20:59:31 <zecrose> Please calculate 25 digits of Pi.
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21:01:08 <oklokok> i only know it in base 78.53
21:02:54 <oklokok> i can't say it, saying those digits would make me vaporize, it's this curse from when i was missionary in hungary
21:03:22 <oerjan> don't believe him, it's because he's a vampire
21:03:38 <zecrose> is there a patch for the bug?
21:04:09 -!- p3k has quit.
21:04:22 <oerjan> zecrose: well if you are will to put a high enough stake in the problem...
21:04:36 <oklokok> zecrose: yes, the holy well of cum, but it can only be found via /whois, and even then only if you are a virgin and wearing pantyhose.
21:05:12 -!- anborn has joined.
21:05:16 <oklokok> (i vaguely recall seeing that condition on freenode's webpage)
21:05:53 <zecrose> i see, this bug is critical. The interpreter is spewing out gibberish!
21:06:36 <oklokok> also, the interpreter should be reading its bookz ->
21:06:47 -!- MrMatriX has joined.
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21:10:44 <Roge> Please say "Hello, World!"
21:11:37 <Roge> this is a joke right
21:12:26 <Roge> porn located --> http://www.teeniemovies.com
21:12:34 * oerjan wonders where the new influx of IRPers is coming from
21:12:38 -!- lament has joined.
21:13:14 <anborn> oerjan, #esoteric got to the main page of reddit
21:13:16 <lament> hi, please send me naked photos of your female family members under 25!
21:13:42 -!- ramza3 has joined.
21:13:47 <Roge> lament's request not found
21:14:41 <lament> i suppose it's good that it gives exposure to the esolang wiki
21:14:51 <lament> people might click on the links and read other articles
21:15:12 <ramza3> Please, some one write the first 16 numbers of the Fibonacci Sequence.
21:15:47 <MrMatriX> the first 16 numbers of the Fibonacci Sequence.
21:15:56 <lament> 610 377 233 144 89 55 34 21 13 8 5 3 2 1 1 0
21:16:19 <Roge> class Program { Console.WriteLine("please enter your name"); string name = Console.ReadLine(); Console.Writeline(name);}
21:17:20 <lament> the beauty is stunning
21:17:44 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
21:17:49 <oerjan> but our wiki is unstable on the best of days, this is sure to crash it
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21:24:40 <Gurami> Please evaluate e^(i * π ) + 1
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21:27:22 <lament> oerjan: how about putting a temporary banner on the IRP page encouraging the users to visit at least the main page?
21:27:36 -!- wkh has joined.
21:27:57 <lament> do you think that's a good idea
21:28:00 <Gurami> please evaluate ∑(2^(-n)) for n=0 to ∞.
21:28:38 -!- fijal has left (?).
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21:29:14 <wkh> Please output 1 if it is possible to reverse entropy and 0 if it is not possible.
21:29:27 -!- flurl has left (?).
21:29:35 <lament> 13:28 <wkh> Please output 1 if it is possible to reverse entropy and 0 if it is not possible.
21:30:01 <oerjan> lament: hey it was you who requested a time machine
21:30:12 <lament> no, i requested naked pictures
21:30:26 <Gurami> Please provide naked pictures, preferably not ASCII art
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21:31:39 <Gurami> Please propose a solution to the iraq war! (muhahahhaahha)
21:32:33 <Gurami> Please propose a non-repulsive solution to the iraq war.. bleach.
21:33:11 <lament> Move all Iraqis to an alternate universe.
21:33:20 <wkh> Error: Cannot output solution without bringing scary Secret Service men to the door who "investigate these things very thoroughly" and don't care if I was "just joking."
21:33:55 <Manos> Accept Iraq as the 51st state in the Union.
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21:34:16 <Gurami> I believe that'd be ERROR NO.48720, OPPRESSIVE EXECUTIVE ADMINISTRATION ERROR.
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21:45:33 <Eidolos> GregorR: you've created a monster!
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21:46:16 <Gurami> Can someone suggest a 4 letter word for "Soho so long" ?
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21:49:21 <oklokok> what's the user peak on this chan?
21:49:56 <lament> somebody could write a log parser...
21:49:58 <dmwit> Well... at least 41.
21:50:11 <Gurami> Can someone tell me an AACS encryption key?
21:51:26 <HoopyCat> gurami: 01 23 45 67 89 AB CD EF 01 23 45 67 89 AB CD EF
21:51:32 <Yst> Difficulty: IRP is not a single interpreter, but rather a collection of interpreters running in parallel. The request "Can someone tell me an AACS encryption key" cannot be evaluated, as it necessitates that any given one interpreter analyse the relative ability of interpreters as a whole to produce an output to the query.
21:52:01 <Gurami> and technically correct
21:52:21 -!- ramza3 has joined.
21:52:49 <Gurami> can someone estimate the speed in FLOPS that this collective interpreter has, as a function of interpreters in the room?
21:53:35 <wkh> Please find two distinct byte sequences of length >= 1048576 with identical MD5 hashes
21:54:15 <dmwit> They're over there! On the floor.
21:54:34 -!- theLucas has joined.
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21:55:15 <r2q2> Gurami: 10^16 calculations per second per person in the room
21:55:20 <theLucas> Please stop being a super douche.
21:55:27 <theLucas> Please have cybersex with Hoopycat.
21:55:36 <ramza3> ~exec sys.stdout([math.pi % math.exp(1), math.pi - math.exp(1))
21:55:47 <ramza3> ~exec sys.stdout(math.exp(math.pi)-math.pi)
21:56:02 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o lament.
21:56:02 <r2q2> theLucas: Please STFU.
21:56:03 <Odiumjunkie> Could someone please demonstrate a failing in IRP?
21:56:06 -!- lament has set channel mode: +b *!*=chatzill@63.210.97.*.
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21:56:26 -!- lament has set channel mode: -o lament.
21:56:40 <r2q2> Have you people been getting a lot of people using IRP since the posting on reddit?
21:56:51 <ramza3> I came from the reddit post, so far not impressed
21:56:52 <fmota> I bet that's what this is.
21:56:53 <lament> r2q2: Yes. And the joke is two years old.
21:57:24 <fmota> I had seen IRP before, just never been on #esoteric before.
21:57:27 <SDr> please tell me the meaning of life
21:57:46 <SDr> please tell me the meaning of life, which is not 42
21:57:58 <r2q2> Anyone use unlambda?
21:58:18 <Gurami> SDr: To find and make happiness
21:58:32 <SDr> please tell me the meaning of life, which is not 42, or gay
21:58:36 <lament> r2q2: oerjan did a bunch of things with it, but he just left
21:58:40 <Gurami> SDr: To not be a douche
21:58:49 <fmota> sDr: ++++++[>+++++++<-]>
21:58:56 <SnakeO> Please, what is the conversion rate from "times back and fourth to the moon" to "times around the earth"
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21:59:08 <oklokok> >>> ul `.f`.r`.o`.m`. `.t`.i`.m`.e`. `.t`.o`. `.t`.i`.m.e
21:59:25 -!- ramza3 has left (?).
21:59:26 <r2q2> lament: Aren't you also in #lisp?
21:59:43 <oklokok> >>> ul ````````````````.f.r.o.m. .t.i.m.e. .t.o. .t.i.m.e
21:59:43 <lament> r2q2: no, they banned me :)
21:59:47 <Gurami> SnakeO: Please clarify: The moon's orbit is not circular, therefore the answer to your question is not discrete.
22:00:30 <fmota> SDr: please stop being a douche to gay people.
22:00:52 <SnakeO> To clarify: I am talking about distance from the earth's center to the moon's center comparitive to the circumference of the earth
22:01:13 <HoopyCat> i'm going to go with a round-trip to the moon being 'bout 19.22 circumnavigations of the earth around the roundy bit
22:01:29 <Gurami> SnakeO: The distance from the earth's center to the moon's center is not constant. The moon's orbit is not a circle.
22:01:43 <SnakeO> Guriami: I am content with a yearly average distance
22:01:55 <lament> earth is not a sphere either, and the definitions of circumnavigation differ depending on usage, anyhow
22:02:21 <lament> like, for something to be accepted as a circumnavigation when you're sailing a yacht, the requirements are different than if you were flying on a plane
22:02:40 <SnakeO> lament: the line around the equator will work for me if it works for you
22:02:43 <HoopyCat> do not use my answer to plan fuel consumption
22:03:39 <dmwit> Surely the equator's circumference and the length of the moon's major and minor axes of rotation are googlable facts.
22:04:46 <SnakeO> Gurami: to clarify, is that the conversion answers?
22:05:52 <Gurami> Yes SnakeO. The distance from the earth to the moon and back is 18 times the circumference of the earth at apogee, or the moon's closest point.
22:06:15 <Gurami> or what [HoopyCat] said.
22:06:40 <dmwit> zsh: exit failure: program returned error code 1
22:06:43 -!- pilaf has joined.
22:06:44 -!- HohoHuhu has joined.
22:06:58 <lament> <interactive>:1:8: parse error on input `;'
22:07:26 <lament> (why? that makes no sense)
22:07:27 <dmwit> Iz dat sum Haskell interpreter?
22:08:00 <HoopyCat> error: all sales are final, cannot return
22:08:04 <lament> er, why would it need a "do"?
22:09:05 <dmwit> Well, you're at the interpreter.
22:09:26 <dmwit> The other option is to stick it in a file, but then you need a LHS for the equation.
22:09:50 -!- trif has left (?).
22:10:29 <Gurami> Please give a general algorithm to solve all possible input pairs for the following problem: "Given a description of a program and a finite input, decide whether the program finishes running or will run forever on that input."
22:10:40 -!- sk1tch has joined.
22:10:58 <dmwit> Easy: run the program and see if it stops.
22:11:15 <dmwit> Or did you want a guarantee of finite running time in there, too...
22:11:32 <Gurami> The definition of an algorithm is that it terminates in finite time, I believe
22:11:35 -!- xbayuldrd has joined.
22:11:45 <Gurami> (or part of the def'n)
22:12:10 -!- pilaf has quit ("Konversation terminated!").
22:12:27 <Gurami> HohoHuhu: Out loud or in my head?
22:12:53 <HoopyCat> utoh, gotta go make test, bbiab
22:12:54 <HohoHuhu> As you want. This is just a test. Thx.
22:13:38 -!- Goldfinger has joined.
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22:14:16 <Gurami> Please express and print the speed of light in furlongs per fortnight
22:14:22 <dmwit> Gurami: First, construct a machine which can execute each instruction in half the time it took to execute the previous instruction.
22:14:54 <dmwit> Gurami: Second, ensure that the machine can execute its first instruction in a finite amount of time.
22:15:17 -!- havox has joined.
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22:17:19 <oklokok> i wonder what reddit is :)
22:17:44 <Gurami> Please suggest what I should make for dinner
22:18:22 -!- c4st has joined.
22:18:29 <c4st> Please say "Hello, World!"
22:18:40 <HoopyCat> Gurami: carbonnade a la flamande over pasta with beer bread, garden salad, and pear crisp for dessert
22:18:53 <Overand> Synax error: statement must be formed as a question.
22:19:04 <naringas> you people are #4 in the front page
22:19:32 <Overand> "are #4 in the front page" assigned to variable => you people
22:19:45 <havox> What is the meaning of life?
22:19:54 -!- abhissekk has joined.
22:19:57 <HoopyCat> havox: carbonnade a la flamande over pasta with beer bread, garden salad, and pear crisp for dessert
22:20:30 <Gurami> Please write something I am unlikely to correctly prepare for dinner ;P
22:20:41 <oklokok> 52 and rising, how exciting
22:21:00 <HoopyCat> Gurami: carbonnade a la flamande over pasta with beer bread, garden salad, and pear crisp for dessert
22:21:08 <Overand> Gurami: Unable to comply, please rephrase in an ASCII-response usable format.
22:21:20 <c4st> i is 99, while i is greater than 1, say "i bottle off beers on the wall", subtract 1 from i.
22:21:24 <Gurami> Please start a flame war
22:21:34 <Overand> BSD IS WAY BETTER THAN LINUX
22:21:41 <oklokok> When will these ppl get bored and depart? Place your bets NOW!
22:21:49 <Overand> Linux isn't even a REAL operating system - just a kernel!
22:21:51 <wkh> gpl is better than bsd
22:21:55 -!- abhissekk has left (?).
22:21:58 <HoopyCat> c4st: i is not 99; i is HoopyCat.
22:22:03 -!- sharth has joined.
22:22:38 <Gurami> Please print your favorite programming language for web development (restatement of previous request?)
22:22:42 <dmwit> Overand: At least infinitely long from now, i will finally be 98.
22:22:57 <HohoHuhu> Looks a very interesting channel... Where we learn what GPL, Linux and BSD is.
22:23:07 <wkh> gurami: assembly language running on a PDP-11 emulator running on a Nintendo DS
22:23:24 <Overand> Gurami: connected to the web via a webcam running OCR software?
22:24:16 <Overand> Gurami: my favorite language for web development is english - I requie all web users to phrase queries in plain english, then I write my answer out in cursive german, which an OCR program will scan, and translate to english, then feed back to the user.
22:24:29 <Overand> postback performance time leaves something to be desired
22:24:56 -!- HohoHuhu has left (?).
22:24:57 <sp3tt> cursive russian > cursive german
22:25:03 <dmwit> Yeah, who needs hard drives? Just hire some kids to memorize a bunch of numbers and you're all set.
22:25:09 -!- tolland has joined.
22:25:26 <HoopyCat> overand: "Cheddarkaesekaese is a large adding to each possible Fondueerfahrung"? what does that even mean!
22:25:27 -!- chton has joined.
22:25:36 <Overand> Error: dmwit's reference to BASH.ORG quote caused an access violation in module "MEME.DLL"
22:25:48 <tolland> Please say "Hello, World!"
22:25:56 <c4st> Please say 0/1
22:26:06 -!- MotH- has joined.
22:26:22 <oklokok> hi MotH-, you here to talk about esolangs? :)
22:26:36 -!- Goldfinger has quit ("Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de").
22:26:46 <Overand> oklokok: I was recently reading about 'CHEF" actually.
22:27:04 -!- pilaf has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:27:05 <Overand> What a horrifying language
22:28:00 <chton> Please say the numbers 1 through 20, putting a star next to each number devisable by three
22:28:06 <naringas> http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/chef.html
22:28:08 <Overand> oklokok: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chef_(programming_language)
22:28:16 <Gurami> HAI. CAN HAS STDIO? VISIBLE "HAI WORLD!". KTHXBYE.
22:28:20 -!- ehird` has joined.
22:28:25 -!- Yst has left (?).
22:28:26 <Overand> chton: Completed. Too bad you weren't on the telephone with me.
22:28:36 <naringas> give me a lol catz link, please
22:28:38 <chton> Gurami: SYNTAX ERROR
22:28:38 <ehird`> so should i implement my own bf interp for KajirBot?
22:28:44 <ehird`> oh god, people are talking about lolcode
22:28:58 <ehird`> i guess the overall iq of this channel drops round about now
22:29:13 <ehird`> yeah, it's pretty hard to have minus iq
22:29:21 <Overand> Gurami: that's actually an alias for /quit
22:29:28 <ehird`> naringas: this channel has been reddited?
22:29:34 <lament> ehird`: you just noticed?
22:29:41 <ehird`> lament: i have been away for a while
22:29:43 -!- wkh has left (?).
22:29:44 <lament> ehird`: where do you think all these people came from
22:29:45 <naringas> ehird`: yeah, you are number for in the front page
22:30:00 <ehird`> time to update the IRP page everyone
22:30:06 <ehird`> "DO NOT DO THIS IN #ESOTERIC GODDAMNIT"
22:30:53 <Overand> (I don't know who owns it, but it's empty for the moment)
22:31:04 <Gurami> Does this belong in #irp instead?
22:31:11 <ehird`> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/IRP do you think the redditors will get the sarcasm?
22:31:34 -!- relix- has joined.
22:31:46 <ehird`> maybe we should have an irp bot
22:31:52 <ehird`> gives a random answer for what most people do
22:31:56 -!- tolland has quit ("Ciao!").
22:31:56 <ehird`> like matches hello world -> printing it
22:31:59 <ehird`> and then kicks the sender.
22:32:17 <lament> ehird`: if a line starts with "Please", kickban the sender :D
22:32:38 <ehird`> you know, this wouldn't have happened in the old days
22:32:40 <ehird`> when reddit talked about lisp :p
22:32:41 <chton> lament: easy to solve then :p
22:32:42 <Gurami> can we just use psychoanalyze-pinhead or something?
22:32:50 <Overand> (I'll probably stick around 0- my guess is that at least one out of every 30 or 40 redditers will be into esoteric languages)
22:32:54 <chton> 'haey fucktards, someone say hello world!'
22:33:05 <ehird`> that would cause error 8
22:33:09 <ehird`> DON'T_BE_A_DOUCHE_TO_YOUR_INTERPRETER ERROR
22:33:11 <lament> Overand: now that it's on the front page, probably much less
22:33:22 * relix- is into esoteric languages and comes from reddit
22:33:29 -!- relix- has changed nick to relix.
22:33:41 <lament> programming.reddit.com is all about Haskell :)
22:33:43 <relix> those are refugees from digg :p
22:33:45 <Gurami> like a lynchmob isn't bad :P
22:34:03 <ehird`> relix: the kind of people who find the idea of an illegal number idiotic
22:34:17 <ehird`> "what do you mean i'm arrested for posting child porn? it was just a number... a very big number..."
22:34:18 <relix> you can spot them in the comments fairly easily - they don't understand irony
22:34:21 <lament> this is such a great time for graue to make lots of money by putting up das on the IRP page
22:34:43 <relix> "look at me I tattoo'd a random number on my forehead and it turns out it's ILLEGAL"
22:34:49 <relix> omg wtf bbq first amendment bla
22:35:03 <ehird`> first amendment: you have the right to DO WHAT THE FUCK YOU WANT
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22:35:27 <lament> relix: in some sense, they're right. The laws dealing with information are a bit outdated.
22:35:50 <ehird`> what is generally regarded as the "best" bf interp?
22:35:52 <Overand> Nobody's really quite sure how to deal with an information economy
22:36:05 <ehird`> -- hopefully i can supply an arbitary cell size
22:36:10 <relix> but it's not a reason to act like a jackass
22:36:24 <relix> in essence any program is "just a number"
22:36:24 <ehird`> and -l 546465 is tape length
22:37:08 <Overand> theoretically *anything* is 'just a number' depending on what worldview you use
22:37:27 <ehird`> even with a rational worldview, just about everything is a number
22:37:39 <relix> I didn't want to go that far but it looks like you're all likeminded here :p
22:37:42 <Overand> it's probable that all matter and energy can be described absolutely.
22:37:57 <relix> that is - if you describe to a deterministc universe
22:37:57 <ehird`> relix: especially because of goedel numbering
22:38:10 <Overand> unfortunately given the interactions with the rest of the universe, the number would have to be as large as the universe, more or less
22:38:10 <relix> oklokok that's not proven yet?
22:38:44 <oklokok> relix: it's a widely believed fact
22:38:55 <relix> god is a turing machine at the end of the tape
22:39:16 <relix> it would make sense
22:39:17 <Overand> I actually *almost* like the line from some marilyn manson song or other
22:39:19 <ehird`> i would like the universe to be deterministic, so much could be done, but alas, no hidden variables quantum theory
22:39:25 <Overand> "god is a number you cannot count to"
22:39:28 <ehird`> fuck quantum theory, i want a universe made out of marshmallows
22:39:37 <Overand> Which is wholly nonsensical but at least a cute image.
22:39:48 <Overand> I just made some marshmallows last night
22:39:52 <relix> where's the bonfire though
22:39:54 <ehird`> and the subatomic particles of each marshmallow is a smaller marshmallows
22:39:55 <Gurami> and it occasionally gets too toasted?
22:39:55 <lament> fuck god, i want numbers made out of marshmallows!
22:40:01 <relix> is that extra-universal?*
22:40:04 <ehird`> so, you have infinite marshmallows
22:40:04 <HoopyCat> i, for one, would prefer a universe made out of carbonnade a la flamande over pasta with beer bread, garden salad, and pear crisp for dessert
22:40:16 <ehird`> you can create gloop and just continually eat the smaller marshmallows
22:40:31 <relix> ehird you're juggling with zeno's paradox there
22:40:38 <ehird`> scientists eat and inspect marshmallows for a living
22:40:51 -!- greentea123 has joined.
22:40:53 <dmwit> Oh, the things we endure for science.
22:41:02 <relix> a bursting stomach?
22:41:08 <ehird`> relix: the marshmallows are sentient, they don't believe in zeno's paradox, and they define the universe, so no i am not
22:41:23 <relix> damn I hate you :p
22:41:24 <HoopyCat> leading-edge theorietical physics relies on building bigger and more complex campfires
22:41:24 -!- fruktq has left (?).
22:41:30 <Overand> better to juddle with zeno's paradox than to juggle with Xenu
22:41:35 <Overand> which would be anamazing excersize tape
22:41:38 <relix> xenu si my homeboy
22:41:41 <ehird`> Overand: xenu is actually a nice guy in the marshmallow universe
22:41:44 <oklokok> this conversation is much closer to what we usually have here :)
22:41:48 <Overand> relix: I'm in a band called Harry Xenu
22:41:49 <ehird`> see, everyone likes marshmallows
22:41:54 -!- greentea123 has quit (Client Quit).
22:41:58 <relix> xenu is the stick that holds the marshmallow over the extra-universal bonfire
22:42:04 <Gurami> ehird: is that an axiom?
22:42:11 <ehird`> lament: so what impl is gregorr's
22:42:15 <naringas> how many people are they usually on this channel?
22:42:17 <relix> Overand what does the Harry stand for?
22:42:22 <Overand> Between this and #xkcd, I feel like I'm home.
22:42:23 <oklokok> naringas: about half this amount
22:42:24 <ehird`> Gurami: no, it is intrinstically related to the marshmallow universe
22:42:27 <Overand> relix: actually, it's because we're both hairy...
22:42:38 <relix> I would have suspected more from redditors
22:42:41 <ehird`> stick around, it's nicer here with more sane people
22:42:44 <Gurami> ehird: Is god the stay-puft marshmallow man?
22:43:00 <relix> yeah, God is the michelan dude
22:43:01 <pikhq> It's like #xkcd, without Bucket.
22:43:04 <ehird`> Gurami: the god is actually nice, he implants the knowledge of himself and the nature of all the universe in each sentient creature
22:43:05 <HoopyCat> if god is the stay-puft marshmallow man, then satan is the michelin man
22:43:21 <ehird`> Gurami: so no religion is needed because everyone knows it and everything
22:43:47 -!- sharth has quit.
22:43:54 <Gurami> How does http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster fit in?
22:43:59 <pikhq> Is that a belief in quantum mechanics?
22:44:18 <Overand> http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff1400/fv01386.htm
22:44:24 <relix> the marshmallows are the desert after the meal that is the flying spaghetti monster?
22:44:26 <Overand> er, that was meant to go to pikhq
22:44:39 <ehird`> IRP has been vandalised
22:44:46 -!- HandOfCode has joined.
22:45:00 <pikhq> That would be an omniquantist.
22:45:23 <HoopyCat> that reminds me, i oughta install that frost-free sillcock next weekend
22:45:26 <pikhq> Are you named Sam or something?
22:45:41 <ehird`> "Hello, reddit! Just want you to know, we completely adore you spamming up our IRC channel with your lame, overdone requests. We highly suggest you do NOT use #irp instead.
22:45:41 <ehird`> We also appreciate your editorial work, such as contributing to this page with the word "cocks"."
22:45:44 <ehird`> i am so damn sarcastic
22:46:28 -!- garandou has joined.
22:46:36 <Overand> I'm sort of amazed there aren't more wiki pages out there that just say 'cocks'
22:47:00 <relix> cocks is overrated
22:47:01 <ehird`> completely safe for work
22:47:04 <ehird`> but all pages just contain cocks
22:47:15 <lament> but then there's only one page
22:47:15 <naringas> reverse whois this 69.118.79.88
22:47:22 <HoopyCat> i started doing some research to determine how many wiki pages out there just say "cocks", but, uhh, i have to have an awkward conversation with my wife now
22:47:35 <pikhq> Does Reddit hate us or something?
22:47:36 <Gurami> naringas: ool-45764f58.dyn.optonline.net
22:47:42 <ehird`> pikhq: No - reddit is nice
22:47:47 <ehird`> pikhq: Some reddit users hate everything :p
22:47:51 <Overand> naringas: it's optimum online - long island ISP
22:48:13 <ehird`> lament: so what is gregorr's impl
22:48:32 <lament> at least somebody recently mentioned it as a good optimizing compiler
22:48:35 <pikhq> And it's a seperate project which Egobot wraps.
22:48:38 <ehird`> i'm trying to outdo egobot, haha :p
22:48:50 -!- smuckers has joined.
22:48:50 <lament> in that case you probably shouldn't use its interpreter :)
22:49:08 <ehird`> but then of course is the choice - python or C?
22:49:11 <ehird`> the bot i'm writing is in python
22:49:15 <ehird`> but C maybe for the speed
22:49:20 <ehird`> but then what programs do people run with bots?
22:50:06 <Gurami> did you guys see that article a while ago claiming that java new is faster than C malloc? I forget wherefrom - maybe IBM labs
22:50:26 <pikhq> lament: Please just remember that you're the other #esoteric contact. ;)
22:50:30 <ehird`> python would fit in better with the bot since it is in python
22:50:41 <ehird`> C is maybe best as when I write my BF compiler it will be in C
22:51:11 <HandOfCode> http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-jtp09275.html?ca=dgr-jw22JavaUrbanLegends
22:51:11 <dmwit> Are you seriously stressed out about making a BF interpreter that's fast enough for industrial use?
22:51:15 <lament> pikhq: i already banned some guy who spammed the channel with "Please spam this message"
22:51:47 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
22:51:49 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
22:52:01 <Gurami> HandOfCode: What seemed off to you?
22:52:17 <ehird`> how do you optimize a bf interp, anyway
22:52:24 <ehird`> surely the opt. takes longer than just running it
22:52:30 <oklokok> !bf8 ->->-<<[->[->[-]<]<] ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
22:52:46 <oklokok> !bf8 ->->->-<<<[->[->[->[-]<]<]<] ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
22:53:01 <oklokok> !bf8 ->->->->-<<<< [->[->[->[->[-]<]<]<]<] ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
22:53:04 <Gurami> HandOfCode: no, the article said that they examined the # of machine instructions (assembly inst.) that each generated for each line of code.
22:53:07 <naringas> congratulations, IRP is now number 3 in reddit's fp
22:53:14 <pikhq> HandOfCode: Shall I bork your brain some more?
22:53:23 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pfuck-1.1.tar.bz2
22:53:26 <oklokok> !bf8 ->->->->->->-<<<<<< [->[->[->[->[->[->[-]<]<]<]<]<]<] ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
22:53:30 <ehird`> naringas: not congratulations
22:53:34 <ehird`> naringas: more like ``oh fuck''
22:53:36 <oklokok> or is it just that fast...
22:53:45 <lament> now i'm hoping we get #1 :)
22:53:56 <ehird`> i guess my note worked
22:54:06 <Overand> ehird`: aye, but pikhq seems to dislike me, heh.
22:54:13 <lament> the IRP page is vandalized again
22:54:13 <pikhq> Overand: What makes you think that?
22:54:19 <HandOfCode> *wonders* could EgoBot have a BF buffer overun exploit?
22:54:27 -!- PedoBear__ has joined.
22:54:35 <Overand> the type-o thing, and the 'sam' thing
22:54:39 <pikhq> HandOfCode: Gregor's not that bad of a coder.
22:54:42 <lament> are there any esolang admins around?
22:55:00 -!- Symmetry- has joined.
22:55:14 -!- canapay has left (?).
22:55:27 <oklokok> !bf8 ->->->->->->->->->-<<<<<<<<< [->[->[->[->[->[->[->[->[->[-]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<]<] ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
22:55:53 <HandOfCode> we have a base line now we just need to average it out
22:55:55 <oklokok> !bf8 ->->->->->->-<<<<<< [->[->[->[->[->[->[-]<]<]<]<]<]<] ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
22:55:57 <ehird`> Gurami: brainfuck, n00b
22:56:11 <oklokok> !bf8 ->->->->->->->-<<<<<<< [->[->[->[->[->[->[->[-]<]<]<]<]<]<]<] ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
22:56:37 <oklokok> GregorR: does it do that? you filthy meanie :<
22:56:51 <Gurami> How much wood would a wood chuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
22:57:01 <lament> it probably does optimize
22:57:10 <lament> since it's a bunch of balanced loops
22:57:18 <lament> even a most basic optimizer should be able to catch that
22:57:28 <lament> try making them unbalanced somehow
22:57:34 <oklokok> that's pretty easy to optimize, but i don't exactly feel like trying to cheat it :P
22:58:13 <Gurami> sudo make me a sandwich
22:58:19 <oklokok> i'll just make those nested loops in a more generic way
22:59:00 <pikhq> oklokok: It does optimize.
22:59:11 <pikhq> Not that hard to tell, though.
22:59:12 <oklokok> yeah, i guess that's why ppl say it optimizes.
22:59:15 <pikhq> Just get the tarball.
23:01:22 <ehird`> it's easy to use really
23:02:21 <HandOfCode> is BF white space sensative? (AKA does it care about newlines)
23:02:55 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/bottles.b My personal version of that program. . .
23:03:40 <pikhq> ehird`: I didn't optimise it at all. . .
23:03:55 <pikhq> PEBBLE makes it too easy to make inefficient programs.
23:04:29 <pikhq> I at least have the excuse that that one outputs it without any tricks like "1 bottles".
23:04:33 * HandOfCode wants to see what that would do to egobot
23:04:49 <ehird`> but it would excess flood
23:04:50 <pikhq> !bf8 http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/bottles.b
23:04:55 <ehird`> so it would take a very long time
23:05:07 <ehird`> pikhq: !bf8 doesn't do urls does it
23:05:13 <pikhq> ehird`: All of them do.
23:05:27 <pikhq> I just got some privmsgs from Egobot.
23:05:35 <pikhq> And Egobot is broken.
23:05:42 <pikhq> I'm getting "Take one down, pass it around."
23:06:22 -!- xbayuldrd has quit.
23:06:41 -!- fmota has changed nick to FMotAFK.
23:06:43 <lament> this one idiot keeps vandalizing the page
23:06:47 <lament> i guess it's good there's only one
23:07:01 <HandOfCode> checked to see if he's in the channel?
23:07:02 <ehird`> (cur) (last) 22:06, 19 August 2007 69.118.79.88 (Talk) (restored vandalism)
23:07:45 -!- javallone has joined.
23:08:03 <HandOfCode> they're filterting torrent traffic now
23:08:15 <pikhq> In other news, +>+[-<+>] makes 2.
23:08:20 -!- ElbridgeGerry has joined.
23:08:42 <lament> are there any admins on the esowiki?
23:09:26 <pikhq> Yes, but I doubt they're here.
23:09:34 -!- Symmetry- has quit (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- 100,000+ downloads can't be wrong").
23:10:36 <ehird`> sigh - http://digg.com/programming/IRP_esoteric_language
23:10:43 <ehird`> someone put "gtfo diggers" in the topic
23:10:49 -!- ElbridgeGerry has quit ("It is now safe to shut down your computer.").
23:11:12 -!- JustinC has joined.
23:11:27 <lament> ehird`: you made ElbridgeGerry leave :)
23:11:36 -!- javallone has left (?).
23:14:17 -!- floam has joined.
23:15:10 * ehird` does the antidigg dance
23:15:17 <ehird`> but for keeping digg usrs away
23:15:49 -!- meltingwax has joined.
23:15:57 -!- Dybber has joined.
23:16:04 -!- itodd__ has joined.
23:16:06 <HandOfCode> !bf8 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
23:16:13 -!- yaxu has joined.
23:16:40 <lament> this one making edits that seem like they're in good faith
23:16:57 <floam> someone please respond to HTTP requests, serving valid HTML of a website about cats
23:16:59 <pikhq> Like, someone in here on a regular basis.
23:17:28 <pikhq> 405 Obtain a brain.
23:17:34 -!- MrMeoff has joined.
23:17:49 <ehird`> lament: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/IRP
23:17:52 <ehird`> there is a part missing
23:17:55 <ehird`> the part with the ERROR 8
23:17:56 <floam> what's that? I just clicked a link from reddit and some wiki told me to come here and use this distributed computing machine
23:18:02 <ehird`> floam: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/IRP
23:18:06 <ehird`> floam: did you read the page?
23:18:14 <ehird`> floam: i specifically put a bold message up there for a reason
23:18:19 -!- TrwX has joined.
23:18:51 -!- Ksero has joined.
23:19:01 <lament> i was pretty sure it was there, the guy did two edits almost simultaneously
23:19:14 <floam> something in bold says not to use #irp
23:19:14 -!- lament has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | IRP in #irp.
23:19:16 <pikhq> MrMeoff: echo {1..10}
23:19:16 <floam> this is all to confusing
23:19:28 <ehird`> floam: you are a digg refugee aren't you
23:19:47 <floam> no, I was using reddit before it sucked
23:20:00 <ehird`> floam: you probably caused it to suck with your complete lack of understanding of irony
23:20:00 <floam> it's just ron paul and kittens now
23:20:11 <ehird`> oh, you're one of those complainers
23:20:44 -!- smuckers has left (?).
23:20:45 <floam> there is a solution, however: http://ycombinator.com/hackernews.html
23:21:06 <naringas> news.ycombinator kind of sucks
23:21:08 -!- PedoBear__ has changed nick to smuckers.
23:21:12 <pikhq> Upon mentioning Graham, you lose.
23:21:25 -!- MrMeoff has left (?).
23:21:36 <floam> naringas: supposedly they'll be launching a reddit-stuck-in-2006 at some point
23:21:42 <floam> it is kind of useless right now
23:21:52 <pikhq> Now, fellows, shall we discuss something *esoteric*?
23:22:07 <pikhq> Perhaps I should give a lecture on PEBBLE or Dimensifuck for the noobs?
23:22:14 <ehird`> lament: you removed my "cocks" comment :(
23:22:24 <lament> ehird`: i think that only encourages people
23:22:28 <ehird`> and get everybody to write a program at the end
23:22:30 <pikhq> ehird`: I can only lecture on languages I understand.
23:22:40 <ehird`> and then if they don't get it right
23:22:44 <ehird`> pikhq: just say loads of bullshit
23:22:46 <ehird`> and include words like "cryptanalysis"
23:22:46 <pikhq> I may be able to lecture on Glass.
23:22:49 -!- relix has quit ("( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: www.XLhost.de )").
23:23:02 <ehird`> pikhq: use gregor's lecture on glass
23:23:09 <ehird`> and any intelligent person would interstand
23:23:16 -!- SomeIdiot has joined.
23:23:19 <pikhq> !glass {M[m"Hello, redditers!"(_o)O!(_o)o.?]}
23:24:07 <pikhq> !glass {M[m<2><2>+(_o)O!(_o)o.?]}
23:24:10 <pikhq> oklokok: What about it?
23:24:17 <EgoBot> 0:*0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|
23:24:30 <pikhq> Grr. O.o doesn't much like numbers.
23:25:07 <EgoBot> 0:*0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|
23:25:12 <ehird`> current IRP error set:
23:25:18 <ehird`> ERROR 8: DON'T_BE_A_DOUCHE_TO_YOUR_INTERPRETER ERROR
23:25:24 -!- TrwX has quit ("System Failure").
23:25:31 <ehird`> your mom (division by zero and other impossible things)
23:25:35 <ehird`> go to hell (unreasonable stuff)
23:25:44 <pikhq> !glass {M[m<2><2>+(_o)O!(_o)(on).?]}
23:26:35 <pikhq> !glass {M[m(_a)A!(_o)O!<2><2>(_a)a.?(_o)(on).?]}
23:26:37 <ehird`> floam: you're a pretard too
23:26:39 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
23:26:41 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
23:26:45 <EgoBot> 0:*2|3|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|
23:26:52 <floam> what? I thought the internet was anonymous
23:26:52 -!- Ilya has joined.
23:26:56 <floam> I don't even know what a pretard is
23:27:03 <ehird`> floam: http://programming.reddit.com/info/2gndp/comments/c2gpos
23:27:09 <floam> that's some other floam
23:27:13 -!- kpanic has joined.
23:27:43 <EgoBot> 0:*2|3|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|
23:28:57 <EgoBot> 0:1|*1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|
23:29:43 -!- itodd__ has left (?).
23:29:52 -!- meltingwax has left (?).
23:29:57 <ehird`> egobot has messaged me 20 times
23:30:19 -!- kpanic has left (?).
23:30:50 <ehird`> and would give up after 255 loops
23:31:00 -!- jamierc has joined.
23:31:03 <ehird`> but it wouldn't change
23:31:34 <oklokok> poor EgoBot, always dying.
23:31:35 <ehird`> 68:1|1|1|1|1|1|1|1|1|1|*1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|
23:31:48 <pikhq> Not hard; killing Egobot is kindof a hobby around here.
23:32:04 <ehird`> KajirBot should be in here right now
23:32:06 <ehird`> it would be great advertising
23:32:11 <pikhq> Because we're evil.
23:32:48 <oklokok> i need to make a bf_txtgen of my own
23:32:51 <ehird`> HandOfCode: my bot. is a work in progress, but will be comphrenensive when done
23:32:59 <ehird`> HandOfCode: lots and lots of esolang interpreters are planned
23:33:13 <ehird`> and some miscellaneous rubbish like .feed where it begs for the food it wants until it gets it
23:33:30 <ehird`> but it is just repeating now
23:33:38 -!- SomeIdiot has left (?).
23:33:53 <naringas> ha, IRP is #1 in programming.reddit
23:34:00 <lament> naringas: it's been #1 for hours
23:34:03 <ehird`> naringas: almost #1 in just reddit
23:34:31 -!- Tanner has joined.
23:34:39 <HandOfCode> that private parking pick is such a photoshop
23:34:57 <ehird`> if that doesn't get it
23:35:06 -!- r2q2 has left (?).
23:35:26 <ehird`> read wiki pages damnit
23:35:33 <pikhq> Moshi moshi, sekai.
23:36:34 -!- Tanner has left (?).
23:36:41 * naringas mourns egobot, whom I just met
23:37:55 <oklokok> he shall be reborn, don't worry
23:38:11 <oklokok> not sure if you'll be here to see that, though :P
23:38:40 <naringas> ooh, i might comeback in the future, after the hype
23:38:48 <ehird`> not too much hype here
23:39:17 -!- Ksero has left (?).
23:39:21 <oklokok> i'm surprised to see people are still hanging in here
23:40:14 <pikhq> GregorR: You need a kill-switch on that.
23:40:42 <oklokok> GregorR: please make EgoBot immortal
23:41:13 <oklokok> shouldn't be that hard to do, and we'd avoid all the sorrow
23:42:15 -!- nefastei has joined.
23:42:18 <oklokok> hmm... if someone is fluent at their client's scripting langs, please tell me what time zone all these ppl are on
23:42:18 <lament> oklokok: that sounds like an IRP request. I will have to ban you.
23:42:36 <oklokok> lament: please do not ban me
23:42:48 -!- sk1tch has quit.
23:43:14 <pikhq> Maybe even a life?
23:43:47 <GregorR> Just on a different virtual desktop.
23:43:50 <GregorR> Preparing a presentation :P
23:44:04 <ehird`> GregorR: its still going damnit
23:44:09 <oklokok> GregorR: what fales with EgoBot?
23:44:21 <ehird`> 450:1|1|1|1|1|1|1|1|1|1|*1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|
23:44:24 <ehird`> all that changes is the number
23:44:48 * GregorR doesn't really remember its commands :P
23:44:58 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
23:45:00 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
23:45:20 <ehird`> !qbf ++++++[THIS IS A QUANTUM BOX]
23:45:22 <GregorR> oklokok: I /msg'd it !help
23:45:38 <oklokok> GregorR: now try to make me believe that.
23:45:39 -!- Ben` has joined.
23:46:01 <Ben`> Please say "Hello, World!"
23:46:08 <ehird`> Ben`: Please go to hell or #irp
23:46:23 <pikhq> Ben`: Mi malsxatas vin.
23:46:30 <Ben`> that's not how you spell "Hello, World!" :(
23:46:34 -!- jamierc has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:46:41 <pikhq> No, but it is how you spell "I don't like you."
23:46:43 <ehird`> i am not an irp interpreter here
23:47:42 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
23:47:48 <oklokok> pikhq: was that esperanto?
23:48:01 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Welcome to Malebolge.
23:48:27 <ehird`> oklokok: also known as Bach
23:48:33 <lament> esperanto and lojban are basically the same language!
23:48:38 <ehird`> malebolge is a layer of hell
23:48:38 <oklokok> oh, german indeed has that
23:49:20 <pikhq> Basically, a way of ASCIIing the Esperanto circumflexes.
23:49:47 -!- nefastei has quit ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)").
23:49:50 <oklokok> so it's the english "sh", kinda?
23:50:00 -!- yaxu has left (?).
23:50:21 <pikhq> That's actually how "sx" is pronounced, actually.
23:50:37 <pikhq> Well, present tense.
23:50:37 <oklokok> hmm... from where is that?
23:50:52 <oklokok> i guess that's not all that crucial
23:52:31 -!- Jenks has joined.
23:52:57 <lament> because it's too difficult
23:53:00 <oklokok> i learn for my own amusement
23:53:21 <oklokok> all languages are equally difficult, says i!
23:53:27 <oklokok> but then again, i say a lot of things
23:53:43 <ehird`> i want to continue implang
23:53:51 <ehird`> maybe i shall rename it and pick it up again
23:53:53 -!- Zephyroth has joined.
23:56:04 <lament> yes, all languages are equally difficult, except Russian, which is more difficult.
23:56:35 <naringas> and chinese which is even more difficult
23:56:43 -!- ekrpat has joined.
23:59:01 <naringas> as far as i know, different pitches have different meanings in chinese
23:59:05 <oklokok> lament: do you learn russian?
23:59:23 <oklokok> naringas: how does that make it harder?
23:59:47 <oklokok> it reciprocates by not having a lot of exceptions to rules
00:00:22 <naringas> the same word, or very similar sounding ones have completely different meanings depending on the pitch
00:00:34 <lament> oklokok: i'm a native speaker
00:00:40 <lament> naringas: tones, not pitches
00:00:59 <oklokok> is that harder than say, english, that does *not* have those distinct tones, but still has 5 meanings for every word`?
00:01:11 <lament> oklokok: no, it's just unusual for a foreigner
00:01:32 <naringas> makes it harder to learn for a foreginer, to listen
00:01:34 <oklokok> i don't believe pronunciation can be hard
00:01:48 -!- Jenks has quit.
00:01:49 -!- Zephyroth has quit ("Leaving").
00:01:52 <ehird`> hmm, ishakul or whatever
00:01:56 <ehird`> is a 2-d written languge
00:02:00 <ehird`> what about 3d languages?
00:02:03 -!- Ilya has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.6/2007072518]").
00:02:04 <ehird`> that could be interesting
00:02:22 <ehird`> what about 3d languages?
00:02:24 <oklokok> but not sure... ilaksh is definately 2d anyway
00:02:24 <ehird`> that could be interesting
00:02:37 <oklokok> lament: you live in america though?
00:02:42 <ehird`> each side could represent a different variation on a word
00:02:55 <ehird`> this would make phrases very short, if a little complex in visual form
00:03:49 <oklokok> i recall you talking about russian sometime, don't remember the context right now though
00:03:55 -!- FunnyMan3595 has joined.
00:04:16 <naringas> ok, i had to search for it but there is this language in the amazonian jungle, the one with virtually no numbers
00:04:37 <naringas> that one has to be harder than russian, very very few non-native speakers have ever learned it
00:05:08 <lament> i would imagine it's really simple if it doesn't even have numbers
00:05:23 <pikhq> How's about Toki Pona?
00:05:25 -!- c4st has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:05:25 <oklokok> if you said it was *easier* to learn than most languages, i might even agree
00:05:48 <HoopyCat> woo, another dinner cooked without disaster or serious injury
00:05:54 -!- fruktq has joined.
00:05:58 <lament> pikhq: one of the goals of toki pona is being easy to learn... i would be surprised if it were heard to learn :)
00:06:20 <naringas> thing is, it is not exactly simpler, it is very different
00:06:25 -!- Dybber has left (?).
00:06:32 <naringas> thus, the unfamiliarity of it makes it harder to learn
00:07:09 <oklokok> lament: wanna teach me to pronounce russian and prove me wrong in saying it can be done?
00:07:17 <ehird`> toki pona is easy to learn
00:07:22 <ehird`> i haven't tried, but i have looked at it
00:07:40 <oklokok> my sentence was a bit obscure, gotta admit.
00:08:23 <lament> i'm one of the few fluent toki pona speakers, by the way :)
00:08:43 <lament> naringas: very many languages are very different from the ones you know.
00:09:02 -!- zapbeeb has joined.
00:09:04 <naringas> lament: this one is even more different that the ones you know
00:09:07 <oklokok> (i'm not saying please so in fear of getting banned)
00:09:33 <ehird`> lament: you are fluent in toki pona?
00:09:38 <oklokok> lament: write "roses are red" in toki pona
00:09:40 <ehird`> lament: how long did that take
00:10:34 <naringas> oh, and besides Pirah is also tonal
00:10:54 <EgoBot> 0:*0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|
00:10:55 <oklokok> is that kasi=roses, li=be, loje=red?
00:10:56 <naringas> http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/04/16/070416fa_fact_colapinto/?printable=true very long
00:11:18 <oklokok> i gotta check out toki pona too, i guess...
00:11:21 -!- zapbeeb has quit (Client Quit).
00:11:26 <ehird`> lament: say "roses are #FF0000, violets are #0000FF, all my base, are belong to you"
00:11:30 <ehird`> non-words and broken grammar in one!
00:11:42 <oklokok> lament: i can has toki pona tutorial?
00:11:49 <bsmntbombdood> http://bayimg.com/kafOhAAbo <--- look, it's meeee!
00:12:01 -!- chromakode has joined.
00:12:35 <naringas> "Toki Pona is a minimal language that focuses on the good things in life."
00:12:47 <lament> i might not actually be fluent anymore, i haven't spoken any in a year or so
00:13:00 <ehird`> lament: well can you translate that poem? :p
00:13:07 <oklokok> added on my 2-page TODO list.
00:13:14 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: it looks dark and cold! :p</capn obvious>
00:13:59 <ehird`> okay, then annoyingly stuffy
00:14:08 <ehird`> also wet! do i get a prize
00:14:11 <lament> kasi loje li #FF0000. kasi laso li #0000FF. tomo mi ale li tomo sina.
00:14:11 <oklokok> kelvinish, celciusish or fahrenheitish?
00:14:39 <oklokok> lament: did you also translate the grammar error?
00:14:41 <pikhq> lament: How long did you spend learning Toki Pona?
00:14:41 <ehird`> lament: hmm, what about the break between "all my base" and "are belon to you"
00:14:44 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: you are dead--
00:14:59 <oklokok> bsmntbombdood: you'd not be dead @ celcius 1000
00:15:08 <oklokok> (you would be dead @ 1000)
00:15:29 <ehird`> even 30 celcius is uncomfortable for me
00:15:41 <oklokok> the air wouldn't, of course
00:15:45 <ehird`> 50, i'd start hallucinating probably
00:15:53 <oklokok> ehird`: have you tried sauna?
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00:16:17 <oklokok> HandOfCode: noob saunas don't.
00:16:35 <ehird`> oklokok: you'd like to be outside at the same temperature which water boils?
00:16:35 <HandOfCode> the human body will die if the core temp varies even 2C
00:16:55 <oklokok> wood ovens usually do 80-90 at max, but some do over 100 easily
00:16:58 <HandOfCode> the body can't get rid of the heat fast enough
00:17:11 <oklokok> an electric oven can almost always do 100
00:17:16 <ehird`> i didn't know my insides were so cold
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00:18:09 <oklokok> you people really think a human can't handle 100 degrees celcius if it's just the air that's that hot?
00:18:10 <lament> you certainly will not die at 38
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00:18:29 <ehird`> "Under many circumstances, temperatures approaching and exceeding 100 °C (212 °F) would be completely intolerable. Saunas overcome this problem by controlling the humidity."
00:18:30 <oklokok> lament: when you have a fever, are also your insides that hot?
00:18:35 <ehird`> "under many circumstances"
00:18:37 <oklokok> i don't know anything about anatomy
00:18:40 <ehird`> so i'd say 100c is dangerous in the air
00:19:00 <oklokok> the water makes you feel the hot
00:19:03 <pikhq> I'd say that being sufficiently hot to *boil* is dangerous.
00:19:11 <oklokok> if it's dry, 100 doesn't feel that much
00:19:33 <pikhq> Odd. I could've sworn 100C was sufficient to cause burns.
00:19:52 <pikhq> 100F, on the other hand, is just a bit on the hot side.
00:19:55 <ehird`> lament: fixed poem please
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00:20:33 <lament> pikhq: therefore, F is much safer than C :)
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00:20:49 <oklokok> 100C isn't hot, you're just noobs
00:20:59 <ehird`> or maybe even just "f--"
00:21:02 <oklokok> have fun, but not too much fun ->
00:21:04 <HandOfCode> oklokok go breath in some of the air directly above boiling water
00:21:21 <oklokok> HandOfCode: as i said, that only applied if it's the air that's hot.
00:21:26 <HandOfCode> I will now state that if you take said action it is out of your own stupidity and I am not legaly liable
00:21:31 <lament> HandOfCode: there's no air above boiling water. There's just steam.
00:21:40 <oklokok> also, i do cook my own food
00:22:11 <lament> no, steam is not water
00:22:12 <HandOfCode> steam is vaporized water which means it's mixed with air
00:22:32 <lament> HandOfCode: correct, steam is vaporized water, which means water is gas form
00:22:35 <oklokok> steam can't be just water?
00:22:43 <lament> HandOfCode: nothing to do with air
00:22:47 <lament> you can have steam in a vacuum
00:23:31 <HandOfCode> hold your hand above 100C air for a few seconds
00:23:45 <lament> if it's really dry air, i don't think so
00:23:53 <oklokok> i've really been in a sauna in 120 degrees.
00:24:11 <ehird`> oklokok: yeah - but you're not just blasted 100c air
00:24:17 <ehird`> there are various controlling methods done
00:24:26 <ehird`> in open air, yeah right
00:24:26 <HandOfCode> your body can't transfer heat to a hotter area
00:24:34 <pikhq> oklokok: I doubt that you hit 120C.
00:24:41 <lament> 120f is kinda cold for a sauna
00:24:49 <oklokok> pikhq: that's rare in a sauna, true, but those exist.
00:25:02 <lament> oklokok: 120c does sound very very hot, are you sure the air throughout the sauna was that temperature? Maybe the temperature was measured close to the heat source?
00:25:27 <oklokok> it's a standard competition heat
00:25:50 <ehird`> who can stay in the longest?
00:25:58 <oklokok> i haven't competed, but i used to do winter swimming
00:25:59 <ehird`> Skateboarding in a sauna?
00:26:17 <oklokok> i know ppl who've been in the world championchips
00:26:32 <lament> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauna
00:26:46 <oklokok> i don't remember if 120 is the heat, but it'd definately over 100
00:26:51 <lament> "Under many circumstances, temperatures approaching and exceeding 100 °C (212 °F) would be completely intolerable. Saunas overcome this problem by controlling the humidity."
00:26:55 <lament> which is exactly what i said
00:27:10 <oklokok> "by controlling the humidity"?
00:27:21 <oklokok> water is thrown on the oven so you feel the heat
00:27:35 <lament> oklokok: saunas are very humid
00:27:40 <oklokok> if you didn't add humidity, it wouldn't feel that hot
00:27:57 <lament> if you threw enough water on the oven for the air to be at _normal_ humidity
00:28:00 <lament> you would probably die
00:28:10 <lament> or at least get massive burns
00:28:25 <oklokok> okay... why does the humidity drop when you heat the sauna?
00:28:44 <oklokok> i don't know enough physics i guess
00:28:50 <lament> oklokok: that's what "relative" in "relative humidity" means
00:29:33 <oklokok> anyway, a sauna is just heated up to 80-100, and water is constantly thrown on the oven to make it humid enough
00:29:42 <lament> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_humidity
00:29:52 <HoopyCat> the relative humidity keeps getting lower, but the dew point stays the same temperature
00:30:09 <HandOfCode> we'll just throw oklokok into a pool of thermite and be done with it
00:30:34 <HoopyCat> (from the "that's what i like about these electric ovens" department)
00:30:46 <bsmntbombdood> going in sauna and then in freezing cold water is always fun
00:31:29 <oklokok> lament: i don't exactly feel like learning that now :P
00:32:09 <bsmntbombdood> oklokok: what does Jos ei viina, terva tai sauna auta, tauti on kuolemaksi. mean?
00:32:24 <bsmntbombdood> wikipedia translates it as If booze, tar or the sauna won't help, the illness is fatal.
00:32:33 <oklokok> if liquor, tar or sauna won't help, the decease will kill you
00:33:00 <oklokok> viina is strong alcohol, to be spesific
00:33:28 <lament> what does that refer to?
00:33:35 <bsmntbombdood> if you're drunk, don't go in a sauna because you'll die?
00:33:41 <oklokok> but not sure what you do with it
00:33:59 <oklokok> bsmntbombdood: no, if you're sick, try those, if they don't help, you're a goner
00:34:06 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: well, obviously "if alcohol or a sauna doesn't help", oh dear
00:34:20 <ehird`> tar was used in traditional finnish medicine
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00:35:01 <oklokok> wish i had a sauna here to prove this to myself
00:35:17 <oklokok> i'm starting to doubt my memory.
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00:36:42 <oklokok> that's the traditional finnish way to deal with everything
00:36:55 <oklokok> doesn't exactly apply these days of course
00:37:18 <ehird`> lament: not exactly :p
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00:38:20 <lament> aha: "Wood tar is microbicidial"
00:38:29 <lament> that's what they're talking about
00:39:41 <oklokok> i hate it when i'm just about to leave, and someone says something to me
00:39:52 <oklokok> and it takes me 10 min to realize i was supposed to go
00:40:55 <Eidolos> lament: Please print "Hello, world!"
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00:41:21 <lament> Eidolos: i don't have a printing press
00:41:21 <ehird`> oklokok: are you sure you got up to 150c?
00:41:47 <oklokok> bsmntbombdood: that's not that common :P
00:43:18 <lament> says the guy who posted IRP on digg?
00:44:12 <lament> i'm not sure if you're exactly museum quality
00:44:16 <oklokok> http://www.saunaheinola.com/ <<< this is in finnish, but it seems the temperature is 110C
00:44:18 <HandOfCode> what's the shortest way to get the first byte == 47 in BF?
00:44:43 <oklokok> "30 sekunnin vlein noin 1/2 litraa vett kiukaalle." 1/2 liters of water on the oven every 30 sec
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00:45:56 <ElbridgeGerry> lament: The location of They Might Be Giant's secret underground headquarters.
00:46:21 <lament> HandOfCode: i think there was a page somewhere trying to find the shortest ways to express numbers
00:46:37 <krat0s98> Could someone please tell me how bad the hordes of redditors are today?
00:47:00 <pikhq> krat0s98: Horrid. You included.
00:47:26 <krat0s98> pikhq: Yeahp, and that was all I wanted to ask. You fine people have a nice evening xD
00:47:44 <pikhq> HandOfCode: >-[<->+++++]<----
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00:48:24 <oklokok> what's shortest on bignums?
00:49:01 <oklokok> blargh, school in 5 hours :\
00:49:06 <oklokok> ...oh, yeah, the away thing ->
00:49:35 <pikhq> lament: That's what PEBBLE does.
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00:53:21 <oklokok> that's a pretty easy way to make 47
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00:56:00 <ehird`> someone keep me updated if irp gets #1
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00:57:08 <lament> for gods' sake we need more admins on the wiki
00:58:06 <lament> somebody hack 69.118.79.88 and make his computer electrocute him.
00:58:35 <ElbridgeGerry> Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm the orange peel.
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01:00:29 <johnjaco1> please iterate over members of the channel and op the user with nick matching "johnjaco1"
01:00:54 <lament> johnjaco1: read the topic.
01:01:35 <oklokok> cool, almost flawless victory
01:01:59 <oklokok> either i or python really owns.
01:02:54 <oklokok> lament: don't take this away from me, that wasn't *that* trivial an addition
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01:03:23 <r2q2> Heh. IRP is #3 on the reddit main page.
01:03:43 -!- dtbelobrown has joined.
01:03:51 <oklokok> but i gotta go have sex with my coffee, cya (prolly in a minute, hopefully tomorrow)
01:05:17 <lament> the worst has mostly stopped when we redirected people to #irp
01:05:46 <lament> but keeping the wiki in shape is a bit of a problem as there're no admins around
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01:07:21 <lament> 21 people in #irp, and it was completely empty earlier today :)
01:07:46 <johnjaco1> its not nearly as entertaining as it sounds
01:10:11 <ElbridgeGerry> bsmntbombdood: There aren't any sex channels on freenode.
01:10:39 -!- Trey has joined.
01:10:40 <lament> efnet then. the further the better.
01:11:06 -!- Trey has changed nick to W|cked.
01:12:57 -!- johnjaco1 has quit ("this sounded way cooler on your wiki, please get a life u sad fuckers").
01:14:09 <ElbridgeGerry> "this sounded way cooler on your wiki, please get a life u sad fuckers" Did this guy come from MySpace News?
01:15:54 <ElbridgeGerry> Nope, I made sure to get to the story before a popular submitted did.
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01:18:08 <lament> oh wow, somebody's impersonating me on the wiki now
01:19:13 <JustinC> Please indicate whether this message is being understood by the interpreter. :)
01:19:23 <ElbridgeGerry> I had a guy impersonate me on Reddit once. Major ego trip.
01:19:59 <JustinC> I would have a major ego trip if someone _knew who I was_ on Reddit :P
01:20:34 <JustinC> whoah, didn't you die in 1814?
01:21:12 <FunnyMan3595> JustinC: Well, I recognize your nick now that you've said something memorable, and I'm frequently on reddit, so feel free to have a major ego trip.
01:21:28 <JustinC> yeah but this isn't my reddit nick :P
01:21:58 <JustinC> I forgot the password to my old reddit nick ("JustinC"), but I had never associated it with an email account, and none of the people at Reddit respond to my requests to help me get a password to it :|
01:22:23 <JustinC> Alexis sent me a message saying something like "sure, i'll help you out pronto" and nothing ever came of it :(
01:23:36 <JustinC> "Xiphorian" is my nick at the moment
01:24:23 <lament> smuckers: so, please explain why you insist on vandalizing our wiki.
01:25:36 <smuckers> no, i still feel so empty inside
01:26:06 <JustinC> yeah, that happens when people lie around the internet just because they have nothing better to do and no friends :(
01:26:18 <JustinC> happened to me while I was in high school :D
01:26:23 <JustinC> I learned programming instead...
01:26:27 <lament> yes, we all wish you had friends, too.
01:26:27 -!- JustinC has changed nick to jcc.
01:26:55 <smuckers> so, where are the admins and their b&hammer already?
01:28:03 <FunnyMan3595> smuckers: Well, if it doesn't help, then it shouldn't hurt to switch to the "light" version: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Esolang:Sandbox
01:33:35 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o lament.
01:33:42 -!- lament has set channel mode: +b *!*n=email@*.dyn.optonline.net.
01:34:23 <lament> that's perhaps not the mask i actually wanted to use
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01:42:05 <lament> this is getting vaguely entertaining
01:44:21 -!- e0\m2x has joined.
01:44:22 <lament> but at least i get to kickban people
01:44:25 <lament> doesn't happen very often
01:45:23 <lament> non-admins are allowed to move pages? that's bad.
01:46:07 <HoopyCat> mediawiki: elegant software for a more civilized age
01:46:52 <lament> the software is great, we just need more admins
01:47:21 * FMota is about to create a language called abdmal
01:48:04 <FMota> just need to figure out the syntax now
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02:00:42 <oklokok> studying grammar in the night isn't all that fruitful
02:00:48 <oklokok> i read 20 pages in an hour :P
02:05:18 <oklokok> "(lament) oh wow, somebody's impersonating me on the wiki now" whut 8|
02:05:45 <oklokok> mode: (lament) sets mode (+b *!*n=email@*.suomi.net) <<< suomi == finland, great advertising :P
02:13:01 <oklokok> if i didn't know better, i'd say my throat hurt
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02:17:40 <casey_> Please, someone explain the advantages of this language.
02:19:07 <oklokok> casey_: the greatest advantage of this language is an interpreter that won't run your code can redirect you to an interpreter that will
02:19:24 <oklokok> Go to hell or goto #irp, as ehird` would say.
02:23:18 <dmwit> HandOfCode: Now get it to print /quit ;-)
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02:25:08 <HandOfCode> !bf8 >-[<->+++++]<----.>-[<+>+++++]<----.
02:25:26 <HandOfCode> !bf8 >-[<->+++++]<----.>-[<+>++++++]<----.
02:26:24 <EgoBot> 68 +++++++++++++++[>+++>+++++++>+++++++>+<<<<-]>++.>++++++++.++++.>.<-. [220]
02:26:52 <HandOfCode> !bf8 +++++++++++++++[>+++>+++++++>+++++++>+<<<<-]>++.>++++++++.++++.>.<-.
02:26:54 <oklokok> !bf +++++++++++++++[>+++>+++++++>+++++++>+<<<<-]>++.>++++++++.++++.>.<-.
02:27:46 <ololobot> Quitting feature to be added later.
02:27:52 <HandOfCode> !bf8 >-[<->+++++]<----.>-[<+>++++++]<----.
02:29:03 <oklokok> !bf8 >-[<->+++++]<----#>-[<+>++++++]<----#
02:29:17 <oklokok> !bf8 >-[<->+++++]<----#>-[<+>++++++]<----
02:29:47 -!- Paczesiowa has joined.
02:30:49 <oklokok> what's "!bf8 >-[<->+++++]<----.>-[<+>++++++]<----." supposed to do?
02:31:01 <oklokok> hard to fix if i don't know
02:31:12 <EgoBot> 0:1|*1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|
02:31:32 <oklokok> HandOfCode: whuz that supposed to be?
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02:32:53 <oklokok> HandOfCode: what is that supposed to be, really?
02:33:20 <EgoBot> 52 +++++++++++[>+++>+++++++++>+++++><<<<-]>.>-.++++.>+. [431]
02:34:34 <EgoBot> 52 +++++++++++[>+++>+++++++++>+++++><<<<-]>.>-.++++.>+. [78]
02:35:15 <HandOfCode> !bf8 +++++++++++[>+++>+++++++++>+++++><<<<-]>.>-.++++.>+.
02:36:46 <EgoBot> 61 +++++++++++[>+++>+++++++++>+++++>+<<<<-]>.>-.++++.>+.<<-.+++. [204]
02:37:01 <HandOfCode> !bf8 +++++++++++[>+++>+++++++++>+++++>+<<<<-]>.>-.++++.>+.<<-.+++.
02:37:17 <oklokok> whatcha cooking, quine loop?
02:37:39 <HandOfCode> was seeing if it would do resursive commands
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02:37:53 <oklokok> nah, almost no bot does that
02:38:02 <oklokok> because it'd be too easy to quine loop them
02:38:36 <oklokok> ololobot does bf too, and also a few other langs, you can try making one :P
02:38:48 <dmwit> HandOfCode: All you need is a second copy of EgoBot hanging around.
02:39:53 <oklokok> actually, i'd be verrry impressed if you'd fit a bf quine loop in irc messages :P
02:40:17 -!- Snurglewozzle has changed nick to smuckers.
02:40:58 <dmwit> What is ololobot's help command? Or, if you're feeling particularly nice, what languages does ololobot know?
02:41:06 <ololobot> These are all the cmds currently in ololobot:
02:41:07 <ololobot> bf, bs, expr, help, numbda, pl, ul, dict, feed, sch
02:41:23 <oklokok> brainfuck, bootstrap, numbda, unlambda only
02:41:26 <EgoBot> 0:*0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|
02:41:46 <oklokok> expr evaluates trivial math expressions, but you can do that with numbda as well
02:42:15 <dmwit> Never heard of numbda, going to have a look. =)
02:42:29 <oklokok> because it's not on the wiki :P
02:42:36 <oklokok> i haven't added any of my languages there yet
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02:43:09 <dmwit> Yeah, Google doesn't seem to know much about numbda...
02:43:29 <oklokok> most of it's still in my head
02:43:49 <oklokok> >>> numbda k={a->{b->a}};k!3!4
02:43:56 <oklokok> the k combinator in numbda
02:44:55 <oklokok> >>> numbda s={a->{b->{c->(a!c)!(b!c)}}};s!k!k!6
02:44:55 <ololobot> error:not-a-function:not-a-function:no-such-variable:k(-1)
02:45:00 <dmwit> oklokok: String literals?
02:45:20 <oklokok> >>> numbda s={a->{b->{c->(a!c)!(b!c)}}};k={a->{b->a}};s!k!k!6
02:45:42 <oklokok> that demonstration uses the fact ```skkX = `iX = X
02:46:00 <oklokok> if you have any idea what i'm talking about :P
02:46:46 <oklokok> >>> numbda "/"+"me"+" lols"
02:47:03 <oklokok> >>> numbda "//"+"me"+" lols"
02:47:30 <oklokok> eh... it seems you found a bug
02:48:01 <dmwit> >>> numbda "lol/somethingelse"
02:48:15 <dmwit> >>> numbda "lol/" + "somethingelse"
02:48:21 <dmwit> >>> numbda "lol/" + "me"
02:48:31 <dmwit> >>> numbda "lol" + "/" + "somethingelse"
02:49:07 <dmwit> Only two literals allowed?
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02:49:31 <oklokok> "/" is an operator, it seems that somehow fucks up :)
02:49:37 <oklokok> this is why also "+" does that
02:49:58 <oklokok> i don't know why, i'm don't think i'm parsing strings as code...
02:50:16 <oklokok> i'll try to check... i did't actually debug strings, just assumed they work
02:50:18 <dmwit> Do you have a conditional other than the k combinator?
02:50:43 <oklokok> i have one in my head. not implemented though :\
02:50:52 <oklokok> you cannot exactly make a loop yet.
02:51:12 <dmwit> HandOfCode: k is the "kill" combinator that takes two arguments and returns its... second (?) one.
02:51:35 <oklokok> functions are first class so you can do some weird stuff, but since scoping is actually broken, that won't take you far either ;)
02:52:26 <oklokok> hmm, that's not very clear.
02:53:48 <dmwit> >>> numbda fix={f->{fix!f}}
02:53:56 <dmwit> ooo, it doesn't complain
02:54:02 <dmwit> Pretty useless without conditionals, though.
02:54:30 <dmwit> >>> numbda fix={f->{f!(fix!f)}}
02:54:39 <dmwit> Okay, still doesn't complain. =)
02:57:13 <ololobot> error:syntax:multiple-adjacent-objokens
02:57:23 <ololobot> error:syntax:multiple-adjacent-objokens
02:57:28 <oklokok> we'll enclose it in parens
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02:57:44 <oklokok> an error is always 0 if used as a numbda.
02:57:55 <oklokok> >>> numbda "sd"+(4 4)+"ere"
02:57:56 <ololobot> sdsyntax:multiple-adjacent-objokensere
02:58:11 <oklokok> it's the error as a string if used as a string
02:58:36 <EgoBot> realloc: Cannot allocate memory
02:58:52 <oklokok> dmwit: it is very useless without conditionals, i'm aware of that :)
02:59:12 <oklokok> in theory, i'm just very busy this month
02:59:45 <oklokok> i'll fix it once i have a week to spare
03:00:05 <oklokok> it has sooooo much stuff everyone will just love <3
03:00:39 <dmwit> So /quit and get working! ;-)
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03:03:49 <dmwit> Are you hot-swapping ololobot as you fix it?
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03:05:40 <oklokok> i'm not sure what that means
03:06:13 <oklokok> once again, i got the code correct on the second try, but it was just too hard for me to actually get to code in the right file xD
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03:07:56 <oklokok> i had it already, it was just erroneous :P
03:08:31 <oklokok> dmwit: the bot reloads a lib every time it's used
03:08:41 <oklokok> so i don't have to restart it
03:09:50 <oklokok> numbda's basic idea was to make () mean a lambda, something that actually doesn't exist yet
03:09:58 <oklokok> () is eager, {} is lazy now
03:10:07 <oklokok> but i'll make it depend on context
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03:10:23 <oklokok> so you can do normal math expressions, but also use () as a lambda you can pass around
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03:11:05 <oklokok> in case GregorR is looking, no, i'm not ripping this from you, i also had this idea before you said it on this channel :)
03:11:18 <oklokok> (you prolly don't remember having that idea though)
03:11:35 <oklokok> whoops, this became a monologue
03:11:59 <oklokok> i better continue my doings, 3 hours till school after all ->
03:12:21 <lament> while i was away, [IRP] stayed vandalized for an hour
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03:17:55 <quwazz> Could someone please tell me what 1 googol is equal to in an exponential number.
03:21:16 <lament> IRP in #irp, as the topic says.
03:25:02 <pikhq> Do we still have the invasion?!?
03:25:06 -!- nosound has joined.
03:26:03 <naringas> but you're number 5 in reddit now, so you'll disappear from the front page soon, and then from the minds of most redditors
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03:26:23 <lament> still #1 at programming.reddit
03:26:39 <lament> only the people with no life are reading reddit
03:27:05 <naringas> programming.reddit is slower than regular reddit, so you'll be there for a while longer
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03:30:46 <Storlek> You guys know, the IRP people here aren't all from reddit.
03:31:28 <FunnyMan3595> I am, but only proximally. I'd found IRP before, just got reminded of it by Reddit.
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03:32:04 <Storlek> http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1187543109/
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03:33:35 <pikhq> Baka na 4chan no sito. . . (sorry; my terminal hates Japanese input for some reason)
03:33:50 <lament> Storlek: probably a redditor posted that, though.
03:33:56 <lament> just like another one posted it on digg
03:34:02 <lament> those are secondary effects
03:34:53 <Storlek> lament- right, but a lot of 4channers don't look at reddit.
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03:35:21 <lament> Storlek: well, at least you're honest :)
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04:04:40 <pikhq> 54 people? All-time high.
04:05:38 <lament> i'm sure it was more earlier today
04:06:06 <oklokok> i tried to keep track of the peak, but forgot at some point.
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04:11:07 <oklokok> how many clones can you have from one ip
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04:13:11 <oklokok> lament figured you're the most kickban-happy guy after him.
04:13:30 <lament> nobody else was around
04:13:37 <lament> as it turned out, you weren't around either
04:13:45 <lament> but it kinda looked like you were :)
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04:16:20 <rumple> please reverse this string "reddit"
04:17:49 <lament> rumple: if you can't read, should you really be allowed to try programming of any kind?
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04:40:10 <lament> so now instead of redditors flooding the channel, we'll do it ourselves? :)
04:40:23 <pikhq> Automated flooding!
04:41:43 <ihope> Is it actually the best of ideas to have the page [[IRP]] point people to this channel?
04:42:24 <ihope> Shall I change it to point somewhere else?
04:42:26 <lament> there's a big bold sign there directing people to #irp instead
04:42:37 <lament> when we put it up, most people started going there
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04:50:31 <lament> ihope: you restored the vandalized version :)
04:50:52 <ihope> Maybe, but at least it's the original.
04:51:23 <ihope> Shall I reprotect it now?
04:51:42 <lament> ok, i reverted to the "right" version
04:53:16 <lament> (the way it was before reddit + one redditor edit that was actually in good faith)
04:54:06 <ihope> So shall I protect?
04:55:30 <lament> actually i dunno, it's mostly been one guy
04:55:39 <lament> so maybe it's unnecessary
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05:03:18 <ihope> School doesn't start for weeks :-(
05:03:44 <lament> school starts in a couple weeks, but i get to go to mexico first :)
05:04:17 <ihope> I plan on visiting a Spanish-speaking country once I finish high school... I think.
05:04:21 <lament> yeah, mhome of the free and the brave
05:06:00 <ihope> okokobot: you're a little slow, there.
05:06:10 <lament> bsmntbombdood: your country is spanish-speaking?
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05:21:51 <ihope> oerjan: are you another Redditer?
05:22:00 <ihope> Or redditer, be it so?
05:22:15 <oerjan> ihope: oh dear, are you getting desperate in here?
05:22:54 <oerjan> nah, i just occasionally follow a link from #haskell
05:26:05 <lament> i thought oerjan was a regular
05:26:30 <lament> somehow i assumed that since he's always in the channel, he must be :)
05:26:45 <oerjan> lament: you were always leaping to conclusions.
05:27:17 <Treeform> i am a redditor i am so embarrassed i quit
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05:32:44 <lament> "With the invention of the moveable type printing press by Johannes Gutenberg around 1450, printing — and printers — proliferated throughout Europe.
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06:20:48 <floam> Please tell me where to do IRP
06:21:38 <oerjan> i don't know if you will enjoy IRP much with a < 5 line window
06:22:47 <oerjan> oh, in that case i don't know if you will enjoy IRP much without being able to read
06:23:38 <floam> I use a braille terminal, asshole
06:23:56 <oerjan> i was going to go with blindness next :)
06:24:15 <oerjan> <okokobot> PLEASE DO IRP IN #irp.
06:24:34 <floam> I see^H^H^Hfeel that a few times
06:24:41 <floam> what if I wanted a custom invitation?
06:25:16 <oerjan> you didn't get one when you entered? complain to the administratio.
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07:37:03 <SnakeO> please tell me if 0x778 is larger than the color red in hex
07:40:14 <HandOfCode> in standard RGB it's not in bitmap BGR it is
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09:30:51 <vladsharp> Please, someone write the first 19 numbers of the fibonacci sequence
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11:40:01 <BobFunk> Please find the millionth lexicographic permutation of the digits 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9, if you would be so kind
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14:24:10 <kijjaz> x = 0 now. If you read this message and x < 5, please increase value of x by 1 and print out this same message with x value updated.
14:24:41 <Storlek> If you can't read the topic, should you be allowed to write code?
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14:36:44 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
14:36:46 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
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17:08:04 <Tritonio> what's the meaning of sublicensing?
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17:22:17 <GregorR> A license holder (that is, not the copyright holder) distributing the copyrighted work under his own licensing terms.
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19:04:44 <sp3tt> I have to be at school at 9:30 this wednesday
19:04:47 <sp3tt> today I slept to ~12:30
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19:53:55 <lament> wait, that's not right is it
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20:20:22 <trasz> hm. seems to work ;-)
20:20:41 <sp3tt> Please solve the halting problem.
20:22:00 <trasz> Use WD40 on moving parts.
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20:56:06 <lament> IRP is still on the front page of programming.reddit
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21:41:21 * GregorR <3 causing #esoteric strife.
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23:20:18 <Keymaker> i was just wondering, does anyone know any good floppy operating system? preferably with simple gui. can be an old one and doesn't need to be able to access internet or anything.
23:20:42 <Keymaker> i mean, booted from floppy and working entirely in memory
23:21:26 <Keymaker> it'd be great if it also could save files to another floppy
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23:31:07 <rc-1> your motherboard
23:32:10 <Keymaker> one day i'll make one of my own (os) but i don't have the patience just yet
23:32:26 <Keymaker> of course, that will support almost nothing
23:33:32 <rc-1> well thats how linux started
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23:39:50 <Keymaker> ah. but is there anything not linux? i'm kind of sick of it. :) i found this menuetos, but i'm still confused if it can be ran from floppy or not
23:42:08 <ihope_> We're all going to make our own OS someday.
23:42:17 <lament> Keymaker: yes, it can.
23:42:30 <ihope_> And when that happens, the world will be a better place.
23:43:01 <Keymaker> even if you probably were joking :D
23:43:10 <ihope_> But I can't just yet, due to my lack of knowledge of x86.
23:43:44 <lament> so just write it for something other than x86.-
23:43:48 <ihope_> I could write an OS that has lots of overhead and little hardware support by having it run as a program under another OS.
23:44:49 <ihope_> Or I could just wade through the stuff required to make GHC output Multiboot.
23:45:11 <ihope_> Or even use something other than Multiboot.
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05:41:40 <darfur> COULD A WOOD CHUCK CHUCK
05:42:20 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:42:32 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:42:46 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:42:51 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:42:52 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:42:54 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:42:54 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:42:56 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:42:56 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:42:57 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:42:58 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:42:59 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:00 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:01 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:01 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:02 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:02 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:03 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:04 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:05 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:05 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:06 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:07 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:08 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:09 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:11 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:11 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:13 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:13 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:15 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:15 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:17 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:17 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:18 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:19 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:21 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:21 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:22 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:23 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:24 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:25 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:26 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:27 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:28 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:29 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:31 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:31 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:33 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:33 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:35 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:35 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:36 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:37 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:39 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:39 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:41 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:41 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:43 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:43 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:45 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:45 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:46 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:47 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:49 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:50 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:50 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:51 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:53 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:53 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:55 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:55 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:43:58 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
05:45:31 <darfur> Please, write the 98 bottles lyrics
05:47:23 <darfur> um, this wasn't a request for 99 bottles lyrics.
05:47:31 <darfur> grab your broom and get to work.
05:48:06 <Conceptual> 98 bottles of beer on the wall, 98 bottles of beer.
05:48:06 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 97 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:48:11 <Conceptual> 97 bottles of beer on the wall, 97 bottles of beer.
05:48:12 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 96 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:48:12 <Conceptual> 96 bottles of beer on the wall, 96 bottles of beer.
05:48:12 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 95 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:48:17 <Conceptual> 95 bottles of beer on the wall, 95 bottles of beer.
05:48:17 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 94 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:48:17 <Conceptual> 94 bottles of beer on the wall, 94 bottles of beer.
05:48:17 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 93 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:48:18 <Conceptual> 93 bottles of beer on the wall, 93 bottles of beer.
05:48:21 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 92 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:48:22 <Conceptual> 92 bottles of beer on the wall, 92 bottles of beer.
05:48:24 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 91 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:48:26 <Conceptual> 91 bottles of beer on the wall, 91 bottles of beer.
05:48:29 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 90 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:48:31 <Conceptual> 90 bottles of beer on the wall, 90 bottles of beer.
05:48:33 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 89 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:48:35 <Conceptual> 89 bottles of beer on the wall, 89 bottles of beer.
05:48:36 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 88 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:48:38 <Conceptual> 88 bottles of beer on the wall, 88 bottles of beer.
05:48:41 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 87 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:48:43 <Conceptual> 87 bottles of beer on the wall, 87 bottles of beer.
05:48:45 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 86 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:48:47 <Conceptual> 86 bottles of beer on the wall, 86 bottles of beer.
05:48:49 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 85 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:48:50 <Conceptual> 85 bottles of beer on the wall, 85 bottles of beer.
05:48:53 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 84 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:48:54 <Conceptual> 84 bottles of beer on the wall, 84 bottles of beer.
05:48:57 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 83 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:48:59 <Conceptual> 83 bottles of beer on the wall, 83 bottles of beer.
05:49:01 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 82 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:49:03 <Conceptual> 82 bottles of beer on the wall, 82 bottles of beer.
05:49:05 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 81 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:49:07 <Conceptual> 81 bottles of beer on the wall, 81 bottles of beer.
05:49:09 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 80 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:49:11 <Conceptual> 80 bottles of beer on the wall, 80 bottles of beer.
05:49:13 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 79 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:49:15 <Conceptual> 79 bottles of beer on the wall, 79 bottles of beer.
05:49:17 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 78 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:49:19 <Conceptual> 78 bottles of beer on the wall, 78 bottles of beer.
05:49:21 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 77 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:49:23 <Conceptual> 77 bottles of beer on the wall, 77 bottles of beer.
05:49:25 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 76 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:49:27 <Conceptual> 76 bottles of beer on the wall, 76 bottles of beer.
05:49:29 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 75 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:49:31 <Conceptual> 75 bottles of beer on the wall, 75 bottles of beer.
05:49:33 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 74 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:49:35 <Conceptual> 74 bottles of beer on the wall, 74 bottles of beer.
05:49:37 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 73 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:49:39 <Conceptual> 73 bottles of beer on the wall, 73 bottles of beer.
05:49:40 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 72 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:49:42 <Conceptual> 72 bottles of beer on the wall, 72 bottles of beer.
05:49:44 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 71 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:49:47 <Conceptual> 71 bottles of beer on the wall, 71 bottles of beer.
05:49:49 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 70 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:49:50 <Conceptual> 70 bottles of beer on the wall, 70 bottles of beer.
05:49:53 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 69 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:49:54 <Conceptual> 69 bottles of beer on the wall, 69 bottles of beer.
05:49:56 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 68 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:49:58 <Conceptual> 68 bottles of beer on the wall, 68 bottles of beer.
05:50:00 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 67 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:50:02 <Conceptual> 67 bottles of beer on the wall, 67 bottles of beer.
05:50:05 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 66 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:50:06 <Conceptual> 66 bottles of beer on the wall, 66 bottles of beer.
05:50:08 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 65 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:50:10 <Conceptual> 65 bottles of beer on the wall, 65 bottles of beer.
05:50:13 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 64 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:50:14 <Conceptual> 64 bottles of beer on the wall, 64 bottles of beer.
05:50:16 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 63 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:50:18 <Conceptual> 63 bottles of beer on the wall, 63 bottles of beer.
05:50:20 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 62 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:50:23 <Conceptual> 62 bottles of beer on the wall, 62 bottles of beer.
05:50:25 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 61 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:50:27 <Conceptual> 61 bottles of beer on the wall, 61 bottles of beer.
05:50:28 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 60 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:50:31 <Conceptual> 60 bottles of beer on the wall, 60 bottles of beer.
05:50:33 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 59 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:50:34 <Conceptual> 59 bottles of beer on the wall, 59 bottles of beer.
05:50:37 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 58 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:50:39 <Conceptual> 58 bottles of beer on the wall, 58 bottles of beer.
05:50:41 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 57 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:50:43 <Conceptual> 57 bottles of beer on the wall, 57 bottles of beer.
05:50:44 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 56 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:50:46 <Conceptual> 56 bottles of beer on the wall, 56 bottles of beer.
05:50:49 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 55 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:50:51 <Conceptual> 55 bottles of beer on the wall, 55 bottles of beer.
05:50:53 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 54 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:50:55 <Conceptual> 54 bottles of beer on the wall, 54 bottles of beer.
05:50:57 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 53 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:50:59 <Conceptual> 53 bottles of beer on the wall, 53 bottles of beer.
05:51:01 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 52 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:51:03 <Conceptual> 52 bottles of beer on the wall, 52 bottles of beer.
05:51:05 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 51 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:51:07 <Conceptual> 51 bottles of beer on the wall, 51 bottles of beer.
05:51:09 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 50 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:51:11 <Conceptual> 50 bottles of beer on the wall, 50 bottles of beer.
05:51:13 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 49 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:51:15 <Conceptual> 49 bottles of beer on the wall, 49 bottles of beer.
05:51:16 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 48 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:51:19 <Conceptual> 48 bottles of beer on the wall, 48 bottles of beer.
05:51:21 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 47 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:51:23 <Conceptual> 47 bottles of beer on the wall, 47 bottles of beer.
05:51:25 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 46 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:51:27 <Conceptual> 46 bottles of beer on the wall, 46 bottles of beer.
05:51:29 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 45 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:51:31 <Conceptual> 45 bottles of beer on the wall, 45 bottles of beer.
05:51:33 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 44 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:51:35 <Conceptual> 44 bottles of beer on the wall, 44 bottles of beer.
05:51:37 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 43 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:51:39 <Conceptual> 43 bottles of beer on the wall, 43 bottles of beer.
05:51:41 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 42 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:51:43 <Conceptual> 42 bottles of beer on the wall, 42 bottles of beer.
05:51:45 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 41 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:51:47 <Conceptual> 41 bottles of beer on the wall, 41 bottles of beer.
05:51:49 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 40 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:51:51 <Conceptual> 40 bottles of beer on the wall, 40 bottles of beer.
05:51:53 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 39 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:51:55 <Conceptual> 39 bottles of beer on the wall, 39 bottles of beer.
05:51:57 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 38 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:51:59 <Conceptual> 38 bottles of beer on the wall, 38 bottles of beer.
05:52:01 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 37 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:52:03 <Conceptual> 37 bottles of beer on the wall, 37 bottles of beer.
05:52:05 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 36 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:52:07 <Conceptual> 36 bottles of beer on the wall, 36 bottles of beer.
05:52:09 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 35 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:52:11 <Conceptual> 35 bottles of beer on the wall, 35 bottles of beer.
05:52:13 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 34 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:52:14 <Conceptual> 34 bottles of beer on the wall, 34 bottles of beer.
05:52:17 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 33 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:52:18 <Conceptual> 33 bottles of beer on the wall, 33 bottles of beer.
05:52:20 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 32 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:52:22 <Conceptual> 32 bottles of beer on the wall, 32 bottles of beer.
05:52:25 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 31 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:52:26 <Conceptual> 31 bottles of beer on the wall, 31 bottles of beer.
05:52:29 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 30 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:52:31 <Conceptual> 30 bottles of beer on the wall, 30 bottles of beer.
05:52:32 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 29 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:52:34 <Conceptual> 29 bottles of beer on the wall, 29 bottles of beer.
05:52:36 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 28 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:52:38 <Conceptual> 28 bottles of beer on the wall, 28 bottles of beer.
05:52:40 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 27 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:52:42 <Conceptual> 27 bottles of beer on the wall, 27 bottles of beer.
05:52:44 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 26 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:52:46 <Conceptual> 26 bottles of beer on the wall, 26 bottles of beer.
05:52:48 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 25 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:52:50 <Conceptual> 25 bottles of beer on the wall, 25 bottles of beer.
05:52:52 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 24 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:52:54 <Conceptual> 24 bottles of beer on the wall, 24 bottles of beer.
05:52:56 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 23 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:52:59 <Conceptual> 23 bottles of beer on the wall, 23 bottles of beer.
05:53:01 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 22 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:53:03 <Conceptual> 22 bottles of beer on the wall, 22 bottles of beer.
05:53:04 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 21 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:53:06 <Conceptual> 21 bottles of beer on the wall, 21 bottles of beer.
05:53:08 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 20 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:53:10 <Conceptual> 20 bottles of beer on the wall, 20 bottles of beer.
05:53:12 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 19 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:53:15 <Conceptual> 19 bottles of beer on the wall, 19 bottles of beer.
05:53:17 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 18 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:53:19 <Conceptual> 18 bottles of beer on the wall, 18 bottles of beer.
05:53:21 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 17 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:53:23 <Conceptual> 17 bottles of beer on the wall, 17 bottles of beer.
05:53:25 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 16 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:53:27 <Conceptual> 16 bottles of beer on the wall, 16 bottles of beer.
05:53:29 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 15 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:53:31 <Conceptual> 15 bottles of beer on the wall, 15 bottles of beer.
05:53:33 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 14 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:53:35 <Conceptual> 14 bottles of beer on the wall, 14 bottles of beer.
05:53:37 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 13 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:53:39 <Conceptual> 13 bottles of beer on the wall, 13 bottles of beer.
05:53:41 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 12 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:53:43 <Conceptual> 12 bottles of beer on the wall, 12 bottles of beer.
05:53:45 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 11 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:53:47 <Conceptual> 11 bottles of beer on the wall, 11 bottles of beer.
05:53:49 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 10 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:53:51 <Conceptual> 10 bottles of beer on the wall, 10 bottles of beer.
05:53:53 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 9 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:53:55 <Conceptual> 9 bottles of beer on the wall, 9 bottles of beer.
05:53:57 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 8 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:53:59 <Conceptual> 8 bottles of beer on the wall, 8 bottles of beer.
05:54:01 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 7 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:54:02 <Conceptual> 7 bottles of beer on the wall, 7 bottles of beer.
05:54:05 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 6 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:54:07 <Conceptual> 6 bottles of beer on the wall, 6 bottles of beer.
05:54:09 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 5 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:54:11 <Conceptual> 5 bottles of beer on the wall, 5 bottles of beer.
05:54:13 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 4 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:54:15 <Conceptual> 4 bottles of beer on the wall, 4 bottles of beer.
05:54:17 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 3 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:54:19 <Conceptual> 3 bottles of beer on the wall, 3 bottles of beer.
05:54:21 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 2 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:54:23 <Conceptual> 2 bottles of beer on the wall, 2 bottles of beer.
05:54:25 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, 1 bottle of beer on the wall.
05:54:27 <Conceptual> 1 bottle of beer on the wall, 1 bottle of beer.
05:54:29 <Conceptual> Take one down and pass it around, no more bottles of beer on the wall.
05:54:31 <Conceptual> No more bottles of beer on the wall, no more bottles of beer.
05:54:33 <Conceptual> Go to the store and buy some more, 98 bottles of beer on the wall.
05:55:02 <darfur> Can you redo it with all caps? thats how i need it formatted....
05:55:17 <Conceptual> let me get the chinese children back on the computer
05:55:27 <darfur> I apologize. but appreciate your help
05:55:39 <Conceptual> 98 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 98 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:55:39 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 97 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:55:39 <Conceptual> 97 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 97 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:55:39 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 96 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:55:39 <Conceptual> 96 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 96 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:55:40 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 95 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:55:42 <Conceptual> 95 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 95 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:55:44 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 94 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:55:46 <Conceptual> 94 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 94 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:55:48 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 93 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:55:50 <Conceptual> 93 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 93 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:55:52 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 92 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:55:54 <Conceptual> 92 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 92 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:55:56 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 91 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:55:58 <Conceptual> 91 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 91 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:56:00 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 90 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:56:02 <Conceptual> 90 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 90 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:56:04 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 89 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:56:06 <Conceptual> 89 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 89 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:56:08 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 88 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:56:10 <Conceptual> 88 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 88 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:56:12 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 87 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:56:14 <Conceptual> 87 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 87 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:56:16 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 86 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:56:18 <Conceptual> 86 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 86 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:56:20 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 85 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:56:22 <Conceptual> 85 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 85 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:56:24 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 84 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:56:26 <Conceptual> 84 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 84 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:56:28 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 83 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:56:30 <Conceptual> 83 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 83 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:56:32 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 82 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:56:33 <Conceptual> 82 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 82 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:56:36 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 81 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:56:38 <Conceptual> 81 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 81 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:56:40 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 80 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:56:42 <Conceptual> 80 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 80 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:56:44 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 79 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:56:46 <Conceptual> 79 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 79 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:56:48 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 78 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:56:50 <Conceptual> 78 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 78 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:56:52 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 77 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:56:53 <Conceptual> 77 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 77 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:56:56 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 76 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:56:58 <Conceptual> 76 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 76 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:57:00 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 75 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:57:02 <Conceptual> 75 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 75 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:57:04 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 74 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:57:06 <Conceptual> 74 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 74 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:57:08 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 73 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:57:10 <Conceptual> 73 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 73 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:57:12 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 72 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:57:14 <Conceptual> 72 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 72 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:57:16 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 71 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:57:17 <Conceptual> 71 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 71 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:57:19 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 70 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:57:21 <Conceptual> 70 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 70 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:57:24 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 69 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:57:25 <Conceptual> 69 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 69 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:57:28 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 68 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:57:30 <Conceptual> 68 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 68 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:57:31 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 67 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:57:33 <Conceptual> 67 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 67 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:57:35 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 66 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:57:38 <Conceptual> 66 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 66 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:57:40 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 65 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:57:42 <Conceptual> 65 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 65 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:57:43 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 64 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:57:46 <Conceptual> 64 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 64 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:57:47 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 63 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:57:49 <Conceptual> 63 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 63 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:57:52 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 62 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:57:53 <Conceptual> 62 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 62 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:57:55 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 61 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:57:57 <Conceptual> 61 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 61 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:57:59 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 60 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:58:02 <Conceptual> 60 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 60 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:58:04 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 59 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:58:06 <Conceptual> 59 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 59 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:58:08 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 58 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:58:10 <Conceptual> 58 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 58 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:58:12 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 57 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:58:14 <Conceptual> 57 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 57 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:58:15 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 56 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:58:17 <Conceptual> 56 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 56 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:58:20 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 55 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:58:22 <Conceptual> 55 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 55 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:58:24 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 54 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:58:26 <Conceptual> 54 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 54 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:58:28 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 53 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:58:30 <Conceptual> 53 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 53 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:58:32 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 52 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:58:34 <Conceptual> 52 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 52 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:58:36 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 51 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:58:38 <Conceptual> 51 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 51 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:58:40 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 50 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:58:42 <Conceptual> 50 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 50 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:58:44 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 49 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:58:46 <Conceptual> 49 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 49 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:58:48 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 48 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:58:50 <Conceptual> 48 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 48 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:58:52 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 47 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:58:53 <Conceptual> 47 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 47 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:58:55 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 46 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:58:58 <Conceptual> 46 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 46 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:59:00 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 45 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:59:02 <Conceptual> 45 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 45 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:59:04 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 44 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:59:06 <Conceptual> 44 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 44 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:59:08 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 43 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:59:10 <Conceptual> 43 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 43 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:59:12 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 42 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:59:14 <Conceptual> 42 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 42 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:59:16 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 41 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:59:18 <Conceptual> 41 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 41 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:59:20 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 40 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:59:22 <Conceptual> 40 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 40 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:59:24 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 39 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:59:26 <Conceptual> 39 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 39 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:59:28 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 38 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:59:30 <Conceptual> 38 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 38 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:59:32 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 37 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:59:34 <Conceptual> 37 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 37 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:59:36 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 36 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:59:38 <Conceptual> 36 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 36 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:59:40 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 35 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:59:42 <Conceptual> 35 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 35 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:59:44 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 34 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:59:46 <Conceptual> 34 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 34 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:59:48 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 33 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:59:50 <Conceptual> 33 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 33 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:59:52 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 32 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:59:54 <Conceptual> 32 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 32 BOTTLES OF BEER.
05:59:56 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 31 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
05:59:58 <Conceptual> 31 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 31 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:00:00 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 30 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:00:02 <Conceptual> 30 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 30 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:00:04 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 29 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:00:06 <Conceptual> 29 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 29 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:00:08 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 28 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:00:10 <Conceptual> 28 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 28 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:00:12 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 27 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:00:14 <Conceptual> 27 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 27 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:00:16 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 26 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:00:18 <Conceptual> 26 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 26 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:00:19 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 25 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:00:21 <Conceptual> 25 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 25 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:00:23 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 24 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:00:25 <Conceptual> 24 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 24 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:00:27 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 23 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:00:29 <Conceptual> 23 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 23 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:00:32 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 22 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:00:34 <Conceptual> 22 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 22 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:00:35 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 21 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:00:37 <Conceptual> 21 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 21 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:00:40 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 20 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:00:42 <Conceptual> 20 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 20 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:00:44 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 19 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:00:46 <Conceptual> 19 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 19 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:00:48 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 18 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:00:50 <Conceptual> 18 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 18 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:00:52 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 17 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:00:54 <Conceptual> 17 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 17 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:00:56 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 16 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:00:58 <Conceptual> 16 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 16 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:00:59 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 15 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:01:02 <Conceptual> 15 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 15 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:01:04 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 14 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:01:06 <Conceptual> 14 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 14 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:01:08 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 13 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:01:10 <Conceptual> 13 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 13 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:01:12 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 12 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:01:14 <Conceptual> 12 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 12 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:01:16 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 11 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:01:18 <Conceptual> 11 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 11 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:01:20 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 10 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:01:22 <Conceptual> 10 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 10 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:01:23 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 9 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:01:26 <Conceptual> 9 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 9 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:01:27 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 8 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:01:30 <Conceptual> 8 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 8 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:01:31 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 7 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:01:33 <Conceptual> 7 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 7 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:01:36 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 6 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:01:38 <Conceptual> 6 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 6 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:01:39 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 5 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:01:41 <Conceptual> 5 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 5 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:01:44 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 4 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:01:46 <Conceptual> 4 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 4 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:01:48 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 3 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:01:49 <Conceptual> 3 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 3 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:01:52 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 2 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:01:54 <Conceptual> 2 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, 2 BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:01:56 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, 1 BOTTLE OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:01:58 <Conceptual> 1 BOTTLE OF BEER ON THE WALL, 1 BOTTLE OF BEER.
06:02:00 <Conceptual> TAKE ONE DOWN AND PASS IT AROUND, NO MORE BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:02:02 <Conceptual> NO MORE BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL, NO MORE BOTTLES OF BEER.
06:02:04 <Conceptual> GO TO THE STORE AND BUY SOME MORE, 98 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.
06:02:17 <darfur> i am gonna go to the store right now.
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06:15:55 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o lament.
06:16:02 -!- lament has set channel mode: +b *!*n=darfur@*.hsd1.mi.comcast.net.
06:16:43 -!- lament has set channel mode: +b *!*@d14-69-59-38.try.wideopenwest.com.
06:17:08 <oerjan> i see i just escaped the action.
06:17:13 -!- lament has set channel mode: -o lament.
06:17:24 <oerjan> makes the logs rather quick to read...
06:20:20 * lament blows the smoke off the tip of the gun and puts the gun back into the belt
06:21:51 <lament> putting retards out of their misery since 2007
06:23:21 * oerjan cunningly detects a ddarius inspiration
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11:11:39 <oklokok> i wonder where ppl get those clever quit messages
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15:31:46 <oklokok> it's funny how much increase in speakers can reduce conversation
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17:41:09 <ehird`> who wants to expand on the general idea of implang when it was a designed language?
17:42:40 <ehird`> i'm thinking about making a new channel with a different name, to continue the project when it was a planned languge
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19:16:37 <oklokok> ehird`: sounds something i'd gladly follow idly by :)
19:25:30 <ihope> What are we following idly by?
19:26:28 <oerjan> And do we get ice cream?
19:26:34 <oklokok> (19:41:06) (ehird`) i'm thinking about making a new channel with a different name, to continue the project when it was a planned languge
19:26:34 <oklokok> (19:47:11) (ehird`) sound good?
19:29:40 <oklokok> oerjan: where do you live?
19:30:14 <oklokok> i vaguely recall it was bergen, but i don't really know other norwegian towns than bergen and oslo
19:31:21 <oklokok> then my memory totally failed me
19:32:19 <oerjan> it's the third largest city after Oslo and Bergen, iirc
19:32:42 <oklokok> i was first gonna say i can get you some ice cream when i come to bergen, but then realized you prolly don't live there
19:34:56 <oklokok> oh it's really in the middle
19:35:29 <oklokok> no offence, but i'm not gonna come there to bring you ice cream :<
19:35:42 <oklokok> no matter how much you beg
19:36:40 <ehird`> ok, simple planned language design in #testlang
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21:46:38 <lament> wow, he actually found #esoteric
21:46:47 <lament> i thought he wouldn't manage
21:47:07 <oerjan> this someone you know?
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05:08:39 <cpfr> lament, ya gotta stop killing them so routinely
05:08:45 <cpfr> add some spin to it
05:08:53 <cpfr> like play password
05:08:59 <cpfr> or russian roulette
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07:57:38 <oklokok> (09:55:54) (+oklopol) %roulette
07:57:38 <oklokok> (09:55:55) kick: (Fiskare) was kicked by (trazer) (You are damn LUCKY today, Fiskare!)
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21:34:36 <SimonRC> I think my Google interviews went well
21:34:39 <SimonRC> I had interviews for Google's Zürich office
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21:42:51 <SimonRC> Mind-control-device engineering.
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21:45:23 <SimonRC> There are also people the run the datacenters, and many support staff
21:51:17 <lament> doesn't sound like a real job, more of a way of life
21:51:48 <lament> you're getting paid crazy money, and have no time at all to spend it
21:51:48 <SimonRC> they are going after tha academics
21:51:57 <SimonRC> no, they encourage you not to overwork
21:52:26 <SimonRC> you get a mentor at the beginning, who (amoung other things) persuades you not to work too much of the time
21:52:48 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: is the a question or a statement?
21:53:08 <lament> SimonRC: then why do they do your laundry?
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22:02:14 <SimonRC> lament: "<SimonRC> they are going after tha academics"
22:02:35 <SimonRC> Irregular Webcomic #1667 is a good one
22:05:10 <oerjan> there's a forum thread betting on who is killed off...
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22:44:06 <pikhq> lament: The only theory I can think of is either overworking or they want you to spend your personal free time without dealing with mundane things.
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00:18:05 <Sgeo> http://www.flickr.com/photos/71552015@N00/sets/72157601600913888/
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11:03:38 <Figs> anyone know what time zone RodgerTheGreat is in?
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00:18:31 <Sgeo> Anyone use EsoAPI or PESOIX?
00:24:44 <Sgeo> Anyone use BFComp?
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00:24:49 <Sgeo> Hi importantshock
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00:26:18 * Sgeo is playing with BFC and PESOIX
00:27:36 <Sgeo> THat's not what I meant
00:27:46 <Sgeo> http://www.clifford.at/bfcpu/bfcomp.html
00:28:22 <importantshock> i wrote my first interpreter for an esoteric language today!
00:28:56 <Sgeo> congratulations importantshock
00:31:34 <importantshock> and getting an accumulator to work properly was a Herculean task
00:32:31 <SimonRC> You might find that monad transformers help greatly
00:32:35 <lament> no, i agree, incrementing the accumulator is certainly harder in haskell than it ought to be for the purpose of implementing HQ9+
00:33:23 <importantshock> it's just a mind-bender wrapping my head around monads
00:33:41 <lament> I suppose you can just make a "lazy" implementation, that simply wouldn't increment the accumulator at all - that's in the spirit of haskell :)
00:34:31 <SimonRC> once you get monads you are above most programmers
00:34:36 <lament> or use IORefs, or use a StateT on top of IO
00:35:31 <lament> are you using Parsec to parse it? :)
00:36:14 <lament> you probably understand monads if you think parsec is awesome :)
00:36:58 <importantshock> believe me, i don't understand monads. i do understand how much better Parsec is than using regular expressions, though.
00:37:50 <lament> and how come you're not in #haskell?
00:37:54 <Sgeo> "1. If the PESOIX aware esotool has declared that it supports memory
00:37:54 <Sgeo> cells, the current cell will be set to NUL." ick, that makes writing this thing harder
00:40:09 <SimonRC> ISTR that Python has a library that is trivially equivalent to Parsec. Also C++.
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00:40:34 <SimonRC> although Python ++ circucular definition == pain
00:41:46 <lament> what is the python one called?
00:41:59 <SimonRC> I have the name arouns somewhere...
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00:52:15 <pikhq> Sgeo: PESOIX needs to be cleaned up. . . Near as I can tell, it requires much more access to interpreter state than I/O.
00:52:38 <pikhq> Also, an *interpreter* would be nice.
00:53:05 * Sgeo hates the alteration of memory
00:54:47 * pikhq proposes that the results of a PESOIX command shall be given on stdin. . .
00:55:29 <pikhq> Shall we call this room the International PESOIX 2 convention? :p
00:58:13 <Sgeo> http://www.clifford.at/bfcpu/bfcomp.html needs more publicity
00:58:31 * Sgeo is writing a PESOIX library for BFC
00:59:06 <pikhq> That's a remarkably inefficient macro language.
00:59:26 <pikhq> PFUCK's BFC rendition was nearly a megabyte.
00:59:45 <pikhq> My Brainfuck->C compiler, now in PEBBLE.
01:01:01 <pikhq> The Practicle Esoteric Brainfuck-Based Language, Eh?
01:01:06 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pebble.php
01:01:14 <pikhq> I've only been working on it for, what, a year?
01:01:22 <pikhq> (and obsessively talking about it)
01:04:50 * Sgeo wonders if BFC code could easily be converted into PEBBLE
01:08:54 <Sgeo> I doubt it could be done the other way around.. PEBBLE is more expressive/powerful >.>
01:09:01 <Sgeo> s/is/seems to be/
01:11:16 <pikhq> Actually, the hard part would involve BFC's local variables. . .
01:11:49 <pikhq> PEBBLE, BTW, is to BFC as C is to C#. ;)
01:12:23 * Sgeo isn't aware of any "right" or "left" commands in BFC..
01:12:43 <Sgeo> I meant by a variable number
01:13:11 <Sgeo> Or do those commands only accept constants?
01:15:38 <pikhq> "right" and "left" only accept constants. . .
01:16:16 <pikhq> while condition {right 1} nets you a variable amount, just like '[>]'; does in BFC/BF polyglot.
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01:17:48 <Sgeo> Is it safe to say that [in PESOIX] 00h 00h will always be regular output 00h?
01:17:56 <Sgeo> Like in EsoAPI?
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01:18:09 <Sgeo> Or are dialects allwoed to change that?
01:23:44 <Sgeo> [wrt Select Dialect] "A return code indicating sucess or failure will be placed on the input
01:23:44 <Sgeo> channel, your application should read this value and respond
01:23:44 <Sgeo> appropriately."
01:24:39 <Sgeo> Return code 0 - PESOIX-SetDialect was successful
01:24:39 <Sgeo> Return code 1 - PESOIX-SetDialect failed
01:24:52 <Sgeo> hm, should I have the macro return those directly?
01:25:07 * Sgeo isn't even up to that yet though
01:30:17 <Sgeo> PESOIX specs for a PESOIX tool indicating that it does not support memory writes conflicts with non-PESOIX interpreters that might return 0 on first read.. e.g. EOF=0 and no input or something
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01:32:27 <Sgeo> Ok, wrote pesoix_init() and p_out()
01:40:06 <Sgeo> 00h 00h should be reserved in all dialects, IMO
01:55:02 <Sgeo> http://jonripley.com/easel/api.txt some of those don't NEED PESOIX
01:55:28 * Sgeo will include a supplimentary BFC file to provide non-PESOIX versions of some of that stuff
01:57:02 * pikhq would like you to just write some PESOIX versions of PEBBLE macros. :p
01:57:36 <Sgeo> Be back laterish
01:58:51 <SimonRC> AOTAA: "AOTAA of the AOTTA AOTTA"
02:38:15 * Sgeo should also write a Python implementation of PESOIX while he's at it
02:40:59 <Sgeo> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/PESOIX
02:41:09 <Sgeo> http://jonripley.com/easel/
02:42:03 <Figs> http://www.badongo.com/file/4139332
02:42:21 <Figs> feedback always appreciated :)
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03:20:12 <Figs> this is a funny story on xkcd
03:20:14 <Figs> "When I was a lot younger, say about five or so, we went on vacation in Germany (we did a trip a few countries in western Europe), that is my mom and dad, my older brother, myself and my younger brother, who was about three.
03:20:14 <Figs> We go to a restaurant and everyone orders and then the waiter brings drinks or something (don't remember exactly what). So my dad says "Thank you", my mom says "thank you", my older brother does and me as well. However, my younger brother says "fuck you"."
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03:21:42 <Sgeo> Would a Python non-memory-altering PESOIX interpreter be appreciated?
03:22:45 <pikhq> Given that it'd be the first one ever, yes.
03:22:57 <Sgeo> first PESOIX interpreter ever?
03:23:18 * Sgeo 's code will probably be filled with WTFs though :/
03:25:02 <Figs> haven't you ever seen anything I've written? I'm gonna give DailyWTF a run for its money one of these days...
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04:18:37 * Sgeo unilaterally decides his PESOIX interpreter will have a semantic deviation from the current PESOIX spec
04:18:52 <Figs> this thread is epic
04:19:22 <pikhq> The current PESOIX spec is difficult to impossible.
04:19:41 * Sgeo simply wants 00h 00h to print NUL regardless of dialect
04:19:47 <Figs> isn't that ... appropriate for an esolang?
04:21:00 <Sgeo> Also, I don't have the sort of skill necessary for the PESOIX interpreter to ask the user upon each dangerous PESOIX operation :/
04:21:36 * Sgeo might have them enablable from switch, and have it ALWAYS write to stderr
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05:00:06 <Figs> you talk to him
05:00:14 <Figs> or use the training file
05:00:31 <Figs> it should autotrain if the file is detected
05:00:41 <Figs> otherwise just talk to him and he'll learn from you.'
05:13:46 <Sgeo> If I use Python's select.select, that would mean PESOIX couldn't run on Windows
05:13:54 <Sgeo> PESOIX would need POSIX >.>
05:27:57 <Sgeo> Next version of PESOIX should be called PESOX >.>
05:28:11 <Figs> http://www.physorg.com/news107109720.html
05:31:57 <Sgeo> In fact, I think I'm not going to implement PESOIX
05:32:01 <Sgeo> PESOX, here I come
05:32:08 <Sgeo> I need to sleep
05:32:17 <Figs> do what you will.
05:33:18 <Figs> I usually just talk to it for a few hours
05:33:21 <Figs> more fun that way
05:35:11 <rechercher> mmm, especially if you do megahal | espeak
05:37:58 <Figs> probably should disable type writter mode then...
05:38:37 * Sgeo HATES HATES HATES the idea of PESOIX writing to memory
05:39:02 <Figs> 'writing to memory'?
05:39:19 <Sgeo> I mean, I don't want to name something PESOX unless it's substantially different, but my ideas aren't PESOIX
05:39:39 <Sgeo> Figs, PESOIX can sometime write directly to a cell-based esolangs' cells
05:39:43 <Sgeo> e.g. Brainfuck
05:39:50 * Sgeo hates that idea
05:40:18 <Sgeo> It means that fewer esolangs will work with PESOIX
05:40:27 <Sgeo> to PESOIX's full capacity, I mean
05:40:57 <Figs> don't do it then?
05:41:02 <Sgeo> It also means that to add those features, I'd need to integrate PESOIX with the esolang's interpreter
05:41:16 <Figs> wouldn't you need to anyway?
05:41:32 <Sgeo> I can make a wrapper around an interpreter
05:41:36 <Sgeo> Treat it like a blackbox
05:41:48 <Sgeo> With me modifying stdin and sdtout
05:41:56 <Sgeo> Because that's how PESOIX communicates..
05:42:07 <Sgeo> when it isn't modifying memory
05:42:14 <Figs> then don't modify memory?
05:42:26 <pikhq> Thus what he's saying.
05:42:43 <Figs> I miss the problem.
05:43:02 <Sgeo> There are some things in the PESOIX spec that say "modify memory, or don't include this".. I want to include it, but via stdin/stdout
05:43:32 <Figs> then do something else?
05:44:05 * Sgeo was thinking PESOX, but that should really be for something really new, IMO
05:44:13 <Figs> call it PNP and really confuse people
05:44:23 <Figs> PNP's Not PESOIX...
05:44:57 <Figs> or better, call it PNP-PESOIX
05:45:09 <Figs> PNP's Not PESOIX - PESOIX
05:45:34 <Sgeo> PESOX is funny too *defending name*
05:45:58 * Figs gives Sgeo a pair of socks
05:47:07 <Figs> am I the only one who gets *really* embaressed by accidently unplugging the headphones?
05:47:18 <Figs> even when what comes out is perfectly legit?
05:51:15 <Sgeo> Semantic difference between PESOIX and PESOX: 00h 00h in PESOX is always print NUL
05:51:31 <Sgeo> PESOIX is the same, because both existant dialects do that, but there's a semantic difference
05:54:34 <pikhq> Just be sure to document your changes.
05:56:44 <Sgeo> PESOX will have versioning
05:57:05 <Sgeo> I only have a vague idea now, and it's time to go to sleep
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06:09:39 <Figs> hey Eidolos, have you seen jamendo.com?
06:11:26 <Figs> free legal music by independant artists :D]
06:11:38 <Figs> some of it is even good
06:12:19 <Figs> yeah, well, if you're a soon-to-be-college student in the US like me...
06:12:20 <bsmntbombdood> if it's not legal, they can put you in jail for 5 months, along with forcing you to use windows for the 5 months after that
06:12:43 <Figs> I already use windows... :S
06:14:09 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: As far as I'm concerned, that's cruel and unusual punishment.
06:14:10 * Figs drips windex on you
06:14:38 <bsmntbombdood> his internet connection is monitored, that's pretty cruel too
06:15:05 <pikhq> I'd probably set up a script to just show goatse to the log for those 5 months.
06:15:46 <oklokok> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/PESOIX <<< if this is the PESOIX spec, you people are seriously skilled at reading between then lines
06:17:10 * Figs mentions the word "piano" and tries to see if psychology has any merits...
06:17:39 <oklokok> i played guitar a bit the other day
06:17:57 <Figs> http://www.badongo.com/file/4139332
06:18:14 <bsmntbombdood> pikhq: goatse may be considered obscene (illegal) in the US
06:19:03 <Figs> oklokok, take a look at my link :D
06:19:11 <bsmntbombdood> so you get hit with parole violation and transporting obscenity
06:19:18 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: The definition for obscenity is fairly loose.
06:19:41 <oklokok> http://jonripley.com/easel/api.txt <<< oh, this is actually pretty cool
06:19:45 <Figs> considering a guy got put away for 10 years for selling lightbulbs...
06:19:53 <pikhq> And given that the goatse pic comes from an actual sold collection of porn pictures, it seems likely to me that it would not fit that definition.
06:20:36 <bsmntbombdood> pikhq: in that case, it applies to prurient interest
06:21:08 <bsmntbombdood> it could be considered to depict excretory or sexual functions in an offensive way
06:21:20 <Figs> pikhq: And given that the goatse pic comes from an actual sold collection of porn pictures, it seems likely to me that it would not fit that definition. <- then wouldn't you be violating copyright law by illegally downloading porn?
06:21:33 <bsmntbombdood> and it could be said to lack serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value
06:21:59 <pikhq> The same applies to some of what passes for 'art' today.
06:22:00 <Figs> at first I though you just said "fuck you" :P
06:22:49 <Figs> bsmntbombdood: It has uh, historical value... uh, to the development of the internet... uh, yeah... really! :P
06:23:23 <bsmntbombdood> well, i'm going to go to sleep and dream of anal stretching and how its depictions relate to obscenity laws
06:23:49 <oklokok> http://www.answers.com/topic/p-emoticon-shouting?cat=technology <<< i'm pretty sure that's wrong, or at least an obsolete definition
06:23:54 <Figs> glad we could help to further *stretch* your imagination...
06:24:04 <Figs> *open* your mind...
06:24:08 <bsmntbombdood> i want a bumper sticker that says "i fap to goatse"
06:24:38 <Figs> where di you get your name bsmntbombdood?
06:24:45 <oklokok> people would yawn from all the old when they saw that
06:24:55 <Figs> "bull shit mountain bomb dude"?
06:25:33 <Figs> or did I totally misinterpret your name? :S
06:25:42 <Figs> well tell me later then ^.^
06:25:59 <Figs> oklokok, I just mistyped your name as "kolokoko"
06:26:27 <Figs> did you listen?
06:26:44 <oklokok> just scramble a few o's, k's and l's and you get pretty near.
06:28:11 * Figs sees he's getting to oklokok~!
06:28:22 <Figs> successful attack of the secret ninja man!
06:29:34 <oklokok> i opened your song link twice, but it's not open.
06:29:47 <Figs> http://www.badongo.com/file/4139332
06:34:11 <oklokok> blargh... can't hear a thing
06:35:18 <Figs> turn up your volume?
06:35:29 <oklokok> i was just listening to another mid :P
06:35:52 <oklokok> so... i'm pretty sure i have volume
06:35:53 <Figs> can you hear it at alll?
06:36:37 <Figs> works fine here, obviously :P
06:37:35 <oklokok> i imported it into guitar pro, and i got a score.
06:37:56 <oklokok> i see the notes, but it won't play xD
06:39:05 <Figs> I guess no one shall ever hear my song then
06:39:48 <oklokok> okay... made it into a gp4 song and reopened, i can hear it now!
06:43:34 <Figs> Any suggestions?
06:43:59 <oklokok> was afraid it'd turn out overly trivial at first, because of the basic chord pattern, but it quickly evolved and proved me wrong
06:50:22 <oklokok> can't say i do, the long chords are a bit ...i lose the word here
06:51:26 <oklokok> i don't see anything wrong with stopping a quick run in a long note, but it somewhat kills the "go" :P
06:51:39 <oklokok> i really seem to have forgotten all my vocabulary.
06:52:31 <oklokok> i mean... a chord you play for the whole bar
06:53:04 <oklokok> they work well when you do the prefixing ghost note... eh, i mean, the ti-dii xD
06:53:35 <Figs> time position?
06:53:36 <oklokok> this is very hard to explain without being able to sing what i mean.
06:53:52 <Figs> you can just give me time positions :D
06:54:10 <oklokok> i could, if i wasn't playing from guitar pro
06:55:08 <Figs> I see what you mean though
06:55:11 <oklokok> hmm... i'll have to retract that statement, there's nothing wrong with doing that, really
06:55:31 <Figs> I think I over-do it a bit though for a 1:12 song
06:56:21 <oklokok> what i'd do, is i'd make left play short low melodies when the chord stops
06:56:41 <Figs> hold on a second
06:57:20 <oklokok> well okay, i'd make it slash a few very low octaves in a rapid manner, but you do something less theatrical, merecommends :P
06:58:24 <oklokok> if you do the leftie melody, you get the stop, but the melody continues anyhow
06:58:27 <Figs> http://www.badongo.com/file/4140970
06:59:03 <Figs> similar to the later parts of this?
06:59:25 <oklokok> there was nothing wrong with that as it was, though, i just feel obligated to give a suggestion when asked.
06:59:41 <Figs> well, you're right though
06:59:46 <Figs> my piece doesn't flow too well
07:00:02 <Figs> it's like 'move move move stop.... move move move stop...."
07:00:28 <Figs> it's a problem caused by my use of 4-bar patterns
07:00:56 <oklokok> bar 20 is where it doesn't sound that good, i think all the other long bars work
07:01:38 <oklokok> and 36 might need some spicing up, since at that point you're kinda *going for the big final*
07:02:18 <oklokok> at the beginning it doesn't have to be that flowsome, since you're just introducing the theme
07:02:45 <Figs> what did you think of bar 8?
07:02:54 <oklokok> and i think you do the stops pretty well when the melody starts
07:04:06 <oklokok> it's fine stopping like that before starting a new theme
07:04:20 <Figs> the "ghost" thing you meant was bar 16 maybe?
07:04:22 <oklokok> plus, left hand makes it obvious there's a stop ahead
07:04:36 <oklokok> because of the... *oklokok sings what he means*
07:05:23 <oklokok> hmm... just play leftie in the beginning and you'll know what i mean
07:05:26 <Figs> there's a lot I could still do with this, actually
07:05:31 <Figs> especially since you pointed it out
07:05:48 <oklokok> the last rise into the chord makes it work, but i'll see about bar 16
07:06:12 <oklokok> 12 would be blunt if you didn't continue right away
07:06:35 <oklokok> and i think that somehow also justifies bar 16 being long
07:07:03 <oklokok> and yeah, the quick not before 16 is exactly something you might do when doing a long chord
07:07:30 <oklokok> but 16 might need a left-hand melody there or something, it might be a *bit* too long
07:08:00 <Figs> the issue is basically with the rhythm of the "cadences" (not sure if that term is meant to apply outside of chords, but meh, I'll use it)
07:08:30 <oklokok> 17-28 is your main problem area iyam
07:09:00 <Figs> do you like the rhythm of the non-stop areas in that?
07:10:19 <Figs> it's basically the first part repeated with the notes that fuck up the harmony removed
07:10:25 <Figs> I thought it sounded kind of cool
07:10:49 <Figs> I think I also shifted it down
07:11:50 <oklokok> i see what you mean by that, though i didn't know you'd generated the melody that wayt
07:12:02 <oklokok> and yeah, it sounds pretty cool
07:12:40 <oklokok> but i recall you having some more complex rhythms in a song sometime... don't remember where exactly
07:13:03 <Figs> I play with rhythm occasionally
07:14:30 <oklokok> i was thinking of making myself a game that generates melodies and you have to note up the melody
07:15:05 <Figs> you could sell it to music majors
07:15:15 <Figs> they have to do that stuff to get their degree
07:15:30 <oklokok> would be fun to make different melody generators, plus that'd be a much more natural way for me to improve my ear than making scores for existing songs
07:16:07 <Figs> there are some notes I can tell
07:16:10 <Figs> most I have no idea
07:16:16 <Figs> but G is one of them...
07:16:21 <Figs> when played on the midi pian
07:16:35 <oklokok> if you can find G, it's trivial finding the rest
07:16:41 <Figs> I can usually always tell the G above the treble cleff
07:17:05 <Figs> it wasn't the piano
07:17:09 <Figs> it was the vibraphone... :P
07:17:48 <oklokok> heh, i have the occasional skill of knowing what tone a key on my piano will produce, but that's it
07:17:59 <oklokok> the program wouldn't ask you for absolute noting
07:18:16 <oklokok> well i guess it could on harder levels or smth.
07:18:35 <Figs> well, that's basically what it is
07:18:44 <Figs> I just got used to particular notes my program makes
07:18:56 <Figs> I can't apply it to other instruments very well
07:19:50 <Figs> I think I could be relatively decent at playing things I've heard in the key of A minor
07:19:59 <Figs> with a bit of practice
07:21:50 <oklokok> if you play metal, i can usually memorize a piece on a few hearings and play it straight away
07:22:23 <oklokok> pop music is just as easy, but classic has too many details for that
07:24:55 <oklokok> (metal can have a lot of details too, i'm talking about the majority of cases where only the guitar solo is complex :))
07:28:16 <oklokok> you can't play guitar pro?
07:29:17 <Figs> play guitar pro? The program?
07:29:21 <Figs> I don't own it.
07:29:29 <Figs> and I can't play guitar :P
07:30:03 <oklokok> i'd've given you a few songs, if you'd had that
07:30:33 <Figs> I need to write a music editing program
07:40:10 <oklokok> ah, lament, you once recommended me to read "in search for lost time" or however it's called in english
07:40:40 <oklokok> it's a russian book, so i made the assumption you have something to do with the language or the country.
07:41:28 <oklokok> dunno if that's the only reason i had a feeling you know russian before you told me... guess my brain digs 'em up sooner or later, if there were other quotes.
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17:43:59 <Sgeo> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/BF_machine
17:44:10 * Sgeo thinks that maybe that could become part of PESOX
17:49:46 <Sgeo> My idea of a sort of improved PESOIX
17:53:37 <Sgeo> Is there anything that uses PESOIX out there?
17:53:52 <Sgeo> Because PESOX will be generally incompatible :/
17:58:56 <Sgeo> Does anything use EsoAPI?
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20:11:29 * Sgeo tries to stay focused on PESOX
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20:42:03 * Sgeo makes output NUL be 0x00 0x00 0x00 instead of 0x00
20:42:09 <Sgeo> instead of 0x00 0x00
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20:46:34 <Sgeo> 0x00 0x00-0x03 will be reserved by PESOX :/
20:50:05 <Sgeo> Actually only 0x00 0x00-0x02
20:51:53 <Sgeo> hm, afaict, exit with 0 will be 0x00 0x02 0x00 0x00 0x03 0x00
20:52:25 <Sgeo> 0x00 0x02 0x00
20:52:31 <Sgeo> 0x00 0x03 0x00
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20:52:51 <Sgeo> 0x00 0x02 0x00 - switch to domain 0
20:52:56 <Sgeo> 0x00 0x03 0x00 - exit(0)
20:55:52 <Sgeo> Make that: 0x00 0x01 0x00 - switch to domain 0
20:56:01 <Sgeo> 0x00 0x02 0x00 -exit(0)
21:00:15 * Sgeo goes to try to write a PESOX bf program
21:01:34 <Sgeo> .+++++++.-------.,[-]..,[-].+.-..++.--.
21:02:50 <Sgeo> 0x00 0x07 [init] 0x00 [majorver] <readin> 0x00 0x00 [minorver] <readin> 0x00 0x01 0x00 [domainswitch to 0x00] 0x00 0x02 0x00 [exit0]
21:05:17 <SimonRC> I would think that PEBBLE already has a library to handle PESOIX
21:09:20 * Sgeo hopes not, because so far PESOX is completely incompatible with EsoAPI and PESOIX
21:11:53 * Sgeo realizes that domain0 won't work.. *changes PESOX-System domain to 0x01*
21:12:17 <Sgeo> Actually, I don't even have that in the spec
21:12:21 <Sgeo> *changes it mentally*
21:20:18 <Sgeo> actually, I can use domain0
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21:41:12 * Sgeo keeps working on PESOX
21:43:10 <Sgeo> "Please note that PESOX, as described here, is in no way whatsoever backwards compatible with either PESOIX or EsoAPI 1.0.. if there is enough demand, I might eventually try to figure out how to fix that.."
21:45:41 <SimonRC> I thought there was a versioning thingy...
21:45:57 <Sgeo> Within PESOX versions
22:02:33 <SimonRC> Sgeo: please do not choose a name that looks like a misprint for the name of an existing product in the same field.
22:03:35 <Sgeo> Would PSOX be ok?
22:03:48 <Sgeo> That was suggested by someone else
22:03:53 * Sgeo already forgot who
22:04:59 <Sgeo> It IS largely inspired by PESOIX though..
22:06:09 <SimonRC> no, wait, that sounds like a sockets library
22:06:31 <Sgeo> So PSOX is out?
22:07:06 <SimonRC> although something with a really contorted actronym would be good too
22:07:23 <Sgeo> Someone suggested PNP for PNP is Not PESOIX
22:07:38 <Sgeo> And then PNP-PESOIX
22:09:25 <SimonRC> Sgeo: what's your IRL name?
22:09:39 * Sgeo tries to avoid giving that out
22:11:05 <oerjan> SimonRC: it's Osama bin Laden, just don't tell anyone
22:12:10 <SimonRC> the famous one or a diferent one?
22:12:36 <oerjan> there is a different one?
22:20:37 <Sgeo> PSOX so far: http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt
22:22:17 * Sgeo pokes SimonRC and oerjan
22:22:46 <ehird`> Sgeo: don't give anyone your name on the internet
22:22:49 <ehird`> you see, nobody has your name
22:22:53 <ehird`> your name is completely unique
22:22:55 <ehird`> and there is a secret website
22:23:02 <ehird`> where internet stalkers can find your address, picture, and phone number
22:23:06 <ehird`> just through your unique name
22:23:16 <SimonRC> actally that last bit is effectively true
22:23:34 <ehird`> not if you haven't posted your address, picture and phone number on the internet
22:23:49 <ehird`> well - you can get address+phone number if you've registered an unprotected domain
22:24:09 <Sgeo> Any comments on PSOX?
22:24:43 <SimonRC> I heard that people can get your address even if you have never posted it on the Internet.
22:25:07 <SimonRC> It's via a system called "Earth".
22:25:34 <SimonRC> Every address of anyone (AFAIK) is present on the Earth
22:27:11 * SimonRC thinks that "references" is a fun word to type on a qwerty keyboard
22:28:48 <Sgeo> No comments on PSOX?
22:32:49 <SimonRC> you just want to type refereferefereferefer...
22:33:54 <Sgeo> PSOX, people! PSOX!
22:37:59 <SimonRC> how many bytes are each $foo_VER
22:39:49 <Sgeo> Although the specs will include a way to specify, at any point, an arbitrary size number
22:41:12 <SimonRC> you can do such things UTF-style or BER-style
22:41:59 <SimonRC> the former is obvious, the latter means that "0xxx xxxx" == end-of-number, "1xxx xxxx" == number continues
22:42:44 <Sgeo> I understand the latter, but what's UTF?
22:43:34 <Sgeo> What does unicode have to do with arbitrary-size numbers?
22:44:53 <SimonRC> UTF is a way of encoding quite wide numbers so that the small ones fit in one byte, but there is still a way to encode the large ones
22:45:30 <SimonRC> UTF-8 maps 21-bit codepoints onto (strings of) 8-bit bytes
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23:00:05 <SimonRC> existing 32-bit character sets?
23:03:53 <Sgeo> Any comments on the rest of the spec?
23:10:50 <SimonRC> what are the default namespace mappings?
23:11:01 <SimonRC> obviously you need 0 = system
23:21:23 <Sgeo> Well, considering I haven't defined other domains yet..
23:21:32 <Sgeo> There definately will be a File I/O
23:21:54 * Sgeo will probably start off with the functionality of Project Easel
23:22:18 <Sgeo> "Returns number of parameters passed to program on the
23:22:18 <Sgeo> command line." Maybe that should go into 0?
23:26:28 <SimonRC> make sure that you can fetch date and time together atomically
23:32:17 <Sgeo> How would that work?
23:33:10 <Sgeo> oO Project Easel doesn't have that, yet PSOX will =P
23:33:14 <SimonRC> to stop the day-change falling in-between
23:33:20 <SimonRC> lol: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y13/Arsonade/ZorkTfrontcopy.jpg
23:44:44 * Sgeo wonders if he should really hold onto the idea of some domains (even domains) being premapped
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01:33:21 <Sgeo> Maybe instead of the encodings SimonRC was mentioning, I could, in necessary places, use NUL-terminated numbers
01:33:51 <SimonRC> 7 bits-per-byte with an indicator bit at the top is better
01:34:04 <SimonRC> it is shorter for any case you will encounter
01:34:16 <Sgeo> Which is easier for an esolang to process?
01:35:10 <SimonRC> which is why we should do it my way
01:35:30 <SimonRC> If it was supposed to be easy people wouldn;t be using brainfuck
01:35:43 <Sgeo> PSOX isn't just for Brainfuck
01:35:59 <Sgeo> And why make things harder then they already are?
01:36:58 <Sgeo> Easel-PESOIX had some convenience functions >.>
01:38:47 <Sgeo> Maybe the even domains shouldn't have longnames..
01:53:31 <SimonRC> http://quadium.net/funge/spec98.html#Fingerprints
01:55:32 <SimonRC> there are ones for time travel, graphics, roman numerals, etc
01:57:48 * SimonRC wonders how many people other than befunge programmers know what a "discrete lahey space" is
01:58:18 <Sgeo> My system doesn't allow overlaps, but do we need overlaps?
01:58:27 <Sgeo> What would overlaps in PSOX mean?
01:58:56 <SimonRC> nick the applicaable good bits and leave the rest
01:59:04 <Sgeo> And my system doesn't require registration, unless you count a URL or email address in your possession registration..
01:59:12 <SimonRC> it is a language feature not a dinner
01:59:36 <oerjan> my impression is that Lahey was a befunge programmer and the term was invented there
02:00:02 <SimonRC> I never heard of him elsewhere
02:00:40 <Sgeo> An equivelent of handprints may be useful..
02:00:44 <oerjan> lessee, Chris Lahey is mentioned in wikipedia on befunge
02:01:25 <Sgeo> [0x00 0x01 0x00] 0x00 0x08 could return a string similar to domain longnames..
02:01:28 <SimonRC> I must ask a mathematician what the proper name is..
02:02:46 <Sgeo> Domains are like tame extensions that don't overlap
02:03:15 <Sgeo> And even domains don't need to be loaded in any way
02:03:29 <oerjan> http://quadium.net/funge/downloads/bef93src/ proves that he was a befunge programmer
02:03:35 <Sgeo> even domains/custom domains
02:03:44 <Sgeo> even is opposite of custom
02:04:21 <SimonRC> I was just givin inspiration
02:06:49 <Sgeo> G'night SimonRC
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02:30:15 * Sgeo wonders if anyone else is in here
02:36:18 * Sgeo is reserving domain1 as a Shortcut Pseudo-domain
02:50:26 * Sgeo reserves 0x00 0x02 as 'call shortcut'
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03:51:37 <navaburo> ahh.. ok, anyone have a mod operator implementation in bf?
03:51:59 <navaburo> i have been working on this for two hours with no luck
04:01:19 <Sgeo> navaburo, hold on
04:01:29 * Sgeo goes to translate bfc into bf by hand
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04:02:31 <navaburo> chyea... its not that important
04:03:47 <navaburo> i thought around 6 tonight, hey, i should write a bf interpreter in scheme...
04:04:16 <navaburo> then, realizing that I knew neither language, i decided i would write a prime number lister in bf
04:04:45 <navaburo> i got the looping, mov/copy, and adding on the lock-down, and i finally got division to work
04:04:54 <navaburo> but modulus just made my head turn inside out
04:06:48 <Sgeo> Maybe examine the logic of bfc's _mod?
04:07:42 <Sgeo> http://pastebin.ca/669810
04:10:06 <navaburo> opinion wanted: does the Ultimate RISC's assembler language qualify as esoteric?
04:10:12 <navaburo> http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/arch/risc/
04:15:51 <navaburo> well... i suppose it is after reading some more
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10:27:54 <SimonRC> navaburo: actualy that exists
10:28:09 <SimonRC> the idea is called a move-triggered architecture or somethinglike that
10:28:56 <SimonRC> e.g. you don't tell it to multiply, you tell it to move things to the inputs of the multiplier, then a few cycles later you tell it to do somethign with the output of the multiplier
10:29:25 <SimonRC> the only way to use these is via a compiler that can calculate all the instruction delays correctly
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22:27:11 <navaburo> graphics in brainfuck anyone? http://hotwigati.blogspot.com/
22:28:03 <navaburo> that interpreter makes the memory cells of bf the video memory..... tada! graphics in bf
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23:00:26 <navaburo> SimonRC: look, i drew a box! yeah!
23:01:05 <navaburo> actually, my example kinda sucks. the best part is the 'abstract art' you get from running other apps
23:01:33 <navaburo> like the decss run through two brainfuck vms in bf
23:04:19 <ihope> Abstract art? Sounds fun!
23:05:51 <navaburo> the problem with it is that the graphics are 2D, and bf works in 1D
23:06:09 <navaburo> so i just wrap the mem around the screen, like written text would
23:06:22 <navaburo> problem there is that it becomes unnatural to move the pointer vertically
23:07:03 <navaburo> maybe i should use a 2D bf dialect... with the symbols v and ^ in addition to > and < for moving the pointer
23:07:40 <SimonRC> but ^ and v are just equivalent to long strings of <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
23:08:01 <SimonRC> and decent Bf-to-C compiler will abbreviate appropriately
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23:13:46 <bsmntbombdood> you start in the top array, 0th element, v moves to the next lower array, ^ to the higher
23:14:11 <SimonRC> i am sure that has already been done
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00:03:06 <navaburo> bsmntbombdood: yes that is what i meant
00:04:10 <navaburo> SimonRC: well... ^ and v are equ to strings of >> and <<, but the length of those >>> stirngs changes with the graphics geometry
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00:16:38 <MotH-> stoned, and just made out with a 24 year-old when I helped her to deal with traumatic experience
00:16:53 <MotH-> also drunk at the point of almost vomiting
00:17:00 <MotH-> and 18 year old meself
00:17:17 <MotH-> and she is my new-found "stepsister"
00:17:33 <navaburo> and you are now coding so esolangs?
00:17:42 <MotH-> I'm interested in them
00:18:12 <MotH-> Really, I just came here by reddit
00:18:26 <MotH-> And have found it fun to observe
00:18:35 <MotH-> sorry.. this is rediculous
00:18:51 <MotH-> I just had nowhere to go to youknow ?
00:19:21 <MotH-> If i'd have shared this with someone I know it'd had spread like a bushfire
00:19:34 <MotH-> It's better than digg imo
00:19:45 <navaburo> i have heard lots aboutit lately
00:19:59 <MotH-> no apple fanboys and no total retards
00:20:14 <MotH-> just pseud-intellectuals and snobbish types
00:20:35 <MotH-> It's not so much linear than digg
00:21:00 <MotH-> Because the front page is deteriorating with time
00:21:19 <navaburo> you were linked HERE from reddit?
00:21:33 <MotH-> or a post is something like rank=points*something/age*something
00:22:07 <oerjan> there was a link to the irp page on the wiki
00:22:08 <MotH-> I was going to "program" something "funny" in this IRP thing
00:22:37 <MotH-> fuck! there's a fly scavengin for scraps
00:22:43 <MotH-> in my fsking forearm !
00:22:58 <MotH-> Tickles + annoys as hell
00:23:13 <MotH-> but it just keeps coming back if i shoo it away
00:23:24 <MotH-> well, live and let live i guess
00:23:54 <MotH-> what an annoying creature
00:24:12 <MotH-> allthough marvelous, the common housefly
00:24:31 <MotH-> put them in a freezer their systems stop completely
00:24:42 <MotH-> and thaw them and they begin to fly
00:25:47 <bsmntbombdood> drink enough deet to bring your blood percentage up to ~ 5%
00:26:39 <oerjan> for a moment i thought bsmntbombdood had stumbled trying to write "beer"
00:27:11 <MotH-> I thought he was going to think i'm a smartass for pointing out a typo
00:27:28 <MotH-> Well deet is an american product
00:27:59 <MotH-> THAT FLY IS MADDENING
00:28:20 <MotH-> But it just keeps coming back
00:28:49 <MotH-> what does it want from my skin ?
00:30:05 <MotH-> as i stated, i am stoned and drunk
00:30:24 <ihope> Do you have a gas mask?
00:30:29 <MotH-> his reflexes greatly outnumber my speed and accuracy
00:30:39 <MotH-> I dont' unfortunately
00:30:52 <ihope> Perhaps you could pay someone to remove it
00:30:55 <MotH-> I've got a half-mask with a gas filter though
00:31:06 <ihope> Or maybe wear more clothes?
00:31:20 <oerjan> trick it out of the house?
00:31:24 <MotH-> that IS a solution
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00:31:40 <ihope> Socks, pants, long-sleeve shirt, possibly gloves, possibly hat, possibly scarf...
00:32:02 <MotH-> But then i'm afraid it's only option would be my skin
00:32:17 <ihope> Scarves need not go around only the neck.
00:32:52 <MotH-> but to go through every closet now
00:34:07 <MotH-> again wikipedia made my english vocabulary larger
00:34:16 * oerjan starts wondering if the fly has the upper hand on intelligence too
00:34:33 <MotH-> Hey, english is not my native language
00:34:41 <oerjan> although technically it doesn't have hands
00:35:01 <MotH-> balaclava isn't exactly the word that comes around in the everyday irc conversation
00:35:42 <MotH-> tell me the word in some other language you know
00:35:52 <MotH-> balalaika is an instument
00:36:04 <MotH-> "Balalaikka" in Finnish
00:38:30 <MotH-> but why do you have one ?
00:38:51 <MotH-> you're just really careful or it's from work or smth
00:40:20 <MotH-> i wonder how much one would cost
00:41:07 <MotH-> I want one too then
00:43:00 <MotH-> tong tied and twisted just an earth-bound misfit, I
00:44:32 <MotH-> too good or too bad
00:44:42 <MotH-> fsking question mark
00:44:48 <MotH-> fsking word fsking
00:45:20 <MotH-> Any recommendations on music ?
00:45:56 <navaburo> to a fellow floyd fan? The Gods and Czar
00:51:13 <MotH-> what an useless drug
00:54:12 <ihope> Indeed, many drugs are useless.
00:55:15 <ihope> Oh, and how about Toccata and Fugue in D minor? I find smalin's YouTube version better than any of the versions on iTunes.
00:55:23 <ihope> Which is, you know, weird.
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00:56:22 <MotH-> No, some drugs are fun
00:57:09 <MotH-> And yws, this toccata and fugue thing is great
00:59:59 <MotH-> now that i have watched half-way
01:05:34 <ihope> Some would call it hallucinogenic :-P
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01:23:01 <Sgeo> Is it ok if I make the maximum expressible number in PSOX 1.26238305e+614?
01:23:25 <Sgeo> exactly 2^(8*255)?
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01:48:18 <Eidolos> Sgeo: I haven't been following, but does PSOX have a string type?
01:48:30 <Sgeo> NUL-terminated strings, yes
01:48:59 <Eidolos> so people can probably implement their own math with strings, if they need true arbitrary-precision arithmetic
01:49:31 <Eidolos> thus your (rather large) limit is OK :)
01:50:20 * Sgeo isn't sure how a Brainf*ck program would handle the numbers though..
01:50:40 <Eidolos> I don't even know what PSOX is :)
01:50:45 <Sgeo> What's the traditional way for a BF program to handle large numbers?
01:51:01 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt
01:52:14 <Sgeo> Is there a particular format that's used most often?
01:52:41 * oerjan doesn't know he just couldn't resist
01:52:54 <oerjan> i assume it is related to arrays
01:53:40 <oerjan> other than that, i somehow cannot believe there is a standard for it
01:56:09 <Sgeo> Would Brainf*ck be able to handle numbers set up similar to Pascal strings, i.e. put a header in front indicating the number of bytes?
01:57:36 <oerjan> i recall something about arrays being implemented with interior empty cells to ease traversing
02:00:51 <Sgeo> I could do it like this: data byte, byte indicating whether or not it continues.
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02:01:15 <Sgeo> So 0x012C would be 0x01 0x01 0x2C 0x00
02:03:39 <Sgeo> Or maybe 0x01 0x00 0x2C 0x01
02:07:58 <ihope> You want a universal code.
02:08:44 <ihope> A byte-based universal code that's good for arithmetic via incrementing, decrementing and checking for zero.
02:09:08 <ihope> Wait, checking whether a cell is equal to 128 takes at least 127 steps, doesn't it?
02:09:32 <ihope> Therefore, NEED COMPILER PLZTHX
02:22:41 <pikhq> Sgeo: The PSOX spec is very, very nice. . .
02:22:47 <pikhq> And actually implementable. :)
02:23:23 <Sgeo> Is my idea for longnums good?
02:23:31 <Sgeo> (Discussion inchan justnow)
02:24:00 <Sgeo> And it's still a work-in-progress
02:24:17 <pikhq> Personally, I like the idea of either sending enough cells to make up your longnum or a string representation. . .
02:25:16 <pikhq> 0x00 0x01 0xmath 0x00 0xadd length-of-longnum bit1 bit2 bit3...
02:26:34 <pikhq> The last byte will be stored directly, and then, going left, you'll do bignum += byte^256*(number-of-bytes-so-far)
02:27:55 <Sgeo> erm, is that saying put the number of bytes in front?
02:28:06 * Sgeo doesn't see how that could work with BF
02:28:38 <pikhq> Which is, of course, the problem. :/
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02:29:09 <Sgeo> How about putting indicator bytes between each byte of the number?
02:29:45 <pikhq> Could be broken, but you'd have to break it intentionally. . .
02:29:47 <Sgeo> Should the first byte be indicator or data:
02:29:50 <oerjan> pikhq: did you switch ^ and * or is your representation _very_ weird? :D
02:30:09 <pikhq> oerjan: Actually, I think my brain's merely dead.
02:30:29 <pikhq> Sgeo: You could end up screwing up the Brainfuck output, such that indicator bits get skipped.
02:30:58 <pikhq> No huge danger, since, well, that's a problem with any programming language.
02:31:05 <pikhq> Why the hell I mentioned it is beyond me.
02:31:26 <Sgeo> 0x01(data) 0x01(indicator) 0x2C(data) 0x00(indicator)
02:33:29 <Sgeo> indicator-data order might be confusing..
02:34:15 <Sgeo> But it would mean while loops instead of do-while loops..
02:35:32 <oerjan> note that you will have to be able to deal with the number from either end, assuming your program contains more than a couple
02:36:23 * Sgeo would hope that the program would be able to record location information as it's receiving the number
02:36:47 <Sgeo> The longnum format is not necessarily how the client will store the number
02:36:52 <Sgeo> It's just transmission
02:38:46 <bsmntbombdood> 0b1<7 bits of data> indicates there's more data, 0b0<7 bits of data> indicates this is the last one
02:39:11 <Sgeo> That's not as convenient to manipulate
02:40:08 <Sgeo> But that implies an indicator-data approach:
02:40:26 <Sgeo> 0x012C becomes 0x01(i) 0x01(d) 0x00(i) 0x2C(d)
02:41:56 <Sgeo> Programmers will need to remember to retrieve the last byte, but that's their problem.
02:43:40 <Sgeo> Unless we make 0x00(i) mean EOF:
02:44:01 <Sgeo> 0x012C becomes 0x01(i) 0x01(d) 0x01(i) 0x2C(d) 0x00(i)
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02:57:17 <Sgeo> importantshock has made an important contribution to PSOX
02:57:33 <Sgeo> Although I am realizing that maybe the Pascal thing might have worked..
02:57:53 <Sgeo> importantshock, not at all
02:58:11 <Sgeo> importantshock, because of you, I decided that maybe Indicator-Data-Indicator would work well
02:58:42 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Programmers will need to remember to retrieve the last byte, but that's their problem.
02:58:42 <Sgeo> <importantshock> :(
02:58:42 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Unless we make 0x00(i) mean EOF:
02:58:51 <Sgeo> importantshock, you're welcome
03:00:31 <importantshock> Sgeo: I've never heard of PSOX, anywhere I can look for some background?
03:00:49 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt
03:00:59 <Sgeo> Have you heard of PESOIX?
03:01:42 <Sgeo> It's still very much in a state of flux
03:01:59 <importantshock> Vaguely. Sort of a unified, OS-agnostic approach to operating system functions?
03:03:28 <Sgeo> PESOIX lets esolangs like BF access OS functions
03:03:57 <ihope> All rather silly, in my opinion.
03:04:06 <ihope> Then again, I have no idea how it actually works.
03:04:27 <Sgeo> PESOIX was never implemented.
03:04:50 <importantshock> Sgeo: sounds like a fine idea to me, though i am new to esolangs in general. all i've done was write an HQ9+ parser in haskell.
03:05:10 <Sgeo> I went to attempt to start to implement it, but due to personal disagreements with semantic and practical issues, I decided to make a (backwards-incompatible) successor
03:05:35 <importantshock> Backwards-compatibility is the root of all evil. Good on you.
03:06:34 <Sgeo> I suppose one could make a translator layer that turns PESOIX commands into PSOX commands..
03:08:56 * Sgeo kills the NUL-terminated numbers
03:11:47 <ihope> main = do {program <- getContents; sequence (map (parse program) program)}; parse pgm 'H' = putStrLn "Hello, world!"; parse pgm 'Q' = putStr pgm; parse pgm '9' = putStrLn "insert 99bob here"; parse pgm '+' = return (); parse pgm _ = error "Syntax error"
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03:19:35 <Sgeo> Hi importantshock
03:19:44 <Sgeo> What took the new client so long?
03:21:27 <bsmntbombdood> pikhq: http://www.uer.ca/locations/show.asp?locid=24797 <-- you should go there
03:22:48 <ihope> Sgeo: he had to download and install Linux to use it.
03:23:02 <ihope> And he chose the biggest distribution he could find, and he has dial-up.
03:23:25 <ihope> And he doesn't have access to a CD burner; only a single floppy disk and a friend's house.
03:23:30 <ihope> Said friend lives in Europe.
03:23:47 <ihope> And he can't afford any type of transportation, so he had to go there on foot.
03:24:40 <ihope> And that friend has two computers: one with a floppy drive, one with a CD burner.
03:25:40 <ihope> He can't afford enough electricity to run both at the same time, so he had to memorize that Linux distribution before turning off the floppy drive computer and turning on the CD burner computer.
03:25:43 <ihope> He used more and ed.
03:26:04 <ihope> Either that, or head and cat. I don't remember.
03:28:09 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt updated with the longnum spec!
03:32:35 <importantshock> Which I programmed into my computer by flicking a light switch on and off to represent binary 1 and 0.
03:35:24 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Why?
03:35:43 <Sgeo> pikhq, did you see the updated spec?
03:35:45 <pikhq> Move to Colorado Springs.
03:36:36 <pikhq> Sgeo: Why wouldn't that format *not* be suitable for storage in Brainfuck memory?
03:36:56 <pikhq> (assuming, of course, that you only manipulate it using PSOX functions, and try to avoid overlaps)
03:37:41 <Sgeo> pikhq, how would BF find the left end?
03:38:09 <pikhq> goto start;bf '[>>]';
03:38:23 <Sgeo> and it wouldn't be manipulated with only PSOX functions..
03:38:28 <Sgeo> pikhq, that's the right end
03:38:46 <pikhq> Programmer needs to handle that.
03:38:53 <pikhq> (put a 0x00 before it)
03:39:29 <Sgeo> How would the BF program add two longnums?
03:40:04 <Sgeo> How would it traverse to a point in the middle of the longnum?
03:40:56 <pikhq> PSOX ADD longnum #1, longnum #2;read longnum from input
03:41:58 * Sgeo was thinking if maybe each indicator would indicate the number of data bytes remaining..
03:41:58 <pikhq> (admittedly, there could easily be more efficient representations. . .)
03:42:12 <Sgeo> Although that would limit the length of longnums..
03:42:55 <Sgeo> And would it really be useful?
03:44:31 <Sgeo> Although that would hamper longnum's ability to be used as strings that can contain NUL...
03:47:22 <pikhq> Null-terminated strings, perhaps?
03:48:54 <pikhq> (although I doubt the practicality of, say, "2e10" versus ++>+>>+>>+>>+>>+>>+>>+>>>>)
03:51:29 <Sgeo> pikhq, strings that contain NULs can't be NUL terminated..
03:51:44 <Sgeo> I mean like bitstring thingies
03:53:31 <pikhq> I'd suggest sized strings, but those are a pain to deal with from Brainfuck.
03:55:34 <Sgeo> pikhq, longnums do work for the purpose..
03:59:02 <Sgeo> Interspersing amount of data left in the longnum might make it difficult for the client to send longnums
04:01:34 <Sgeo> hm, the mere concept of variable-length numbers might cause problems with some languages..
04:02:03 <Sgeo> (receiving, anyway)
04:02:41 <Sgeo> Pretty strong reason to avoid longnums unless necessary
04:03:19 <Sgeo> e.g. in an ask the user for a number function, the client could say how many bytes the number can be, or 0 for a longnum
04:11:16 <Sgeo> OTOH, I have no similar warnings about NUL-terminated strings..
04:12:39 <Sgeo> Maybe I should..
04:26:49 * Sgeo will add warnings... tomorrow
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04:58:12 * Figs says something stupid... just because.
05:33:25 <Figs> >>> ->+>+++>>+>++>+>+++>>+>++>>>+>+>+>++>+>>>>+++>+>>++>+>+++>>++>++>>+>>+>++>++>+>>>>+++>+>>>>++>++>>>>+>>++>+>+++>>>++>>++++++>>+>>++>+>>>>+++>>+++++>>+>+++>>>++>>++>>+>>++>+>+++>>>++>>+++++++++++++>>+>>++>+>+++>+>+++>>>++>>++++>>+>>++>+>>>>+++>>+++++>>>>++>>>>+>+>++>>+++>+>>>>+++>+>>>>+++>+>>>>+++>>++>++>+>+++>+>++>++>>>>>>++>+>+++>>>>>+++>>>++>+>+++>+>+>++>>>>>>++>>>+>>>++>+>>>>+++>+>>>+>>++>+>++++++++++++++++++>>>>+>+>>>+>>++>+>+++>>>++>>
05:33:38 <Figs> was that too long?
05:49:01 <Figs> what's a reasonable size for a brainfuck buffer?
05:54:06 <pikhq> The joys of a representation of infinity in PSOX's longnum format.
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06:01:12 <bsmntbombdood> pikhq: http://www.actionsquad.org/stahl.htm <-- you should go there, too
06:01:36 <bsmntbombdood> unless waist deep in sewage isn't your idea of fun?
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08:40:54 <Figs> my brainfuck interpretter just went up in flames.
08:49:24 <Figs> I just used a char*** for the first time in my code :P
08:51:09 <importantshock> Figs: in an mp4 metadata-parser i had to modify, i almost used a char****
08:52:10 <importantshock> ...then i said "No, just...no. Sure, the following code may not be as abstracted as it could be, but i'm not using four fucking stars."
08:52:28 <Figs> it's a charfuck!
08:52:40 <Figs> that's what well call char****
08:52:46 <Figs> confuse people...
08:52:58 <Figs> they'll think we're cursing when they see char**** in our code
08:53:01 <Figs> char**** charfuck;
08:53:24 <Figs> basically, I have a
08:53:31 <Figs> char* [10000][2]
08:53:42 <Figs> and I have a char*** to access the data
08:54:05 <Figs> I wonder how the hell I learned to use that.
08:54:12 <Figs> I've never seen anyone use char***s before... :S
08:54:19 <Figs> now I'm talking to myself, aren't I?
08:54:34 <Figs> WALL OF TEXT REPLY!
08:55:18 <Figs> I think I will do that later
08:55:24 <Figs> since I plan to obfuscate this program
08:55:34 <Figs> and that'd just be classic :)
08:55:42 <Figs> typedef char brain;
08:55:50 <Figs> #define fuck ****
08:55:57 <Figs> brain fuck ptr;
08:56:38 <Figs> or maybe just brain**** pointer;
08:56:48 <Figs> so that my code doesn't curse :)
08:57:06 <Figs> and see if people get the jokes :P
08:58:29 <Figs> I don't really need a char***
08:58:32 <Figs> I just a char**
09:01:13 <Figs> in case you haven't figured out yet
09:01:22 <Figs> I'm writing an obfuscated BF interpreter :)
09:01:32 <Figs> modified a bit...
09:01:39 <Figs> ` is now the quit operator
09:01:48 <Figs> so I can do things like [`] to quit
09:01:53 <Figs> if a value is zero :D
09:03:44 <Figs> I don't know what HQ9+ is
09:08:09 <Figs> I am doing something stupid with me []s I think
09:09:37 <Figs> I'm writing it in C
09:09:50 <Figs> (writing the code for [ and ] in bf)
09:11:15 <Figs> now I remember why I wanted that second thing...
09:11:58 <Figs> brain**** even!
09:14:42 <Figs> F(uck) (y)U(o)
09:14:57 <Figs> sad thing is that I could actually make that mean something in C++
09:16:09 <oklopol> "* SimonRC thinks that "references" is a fun word to type" <<< of you like that, you should try "oklopol"
09:17:22 <Figs> no references in C
09:24:28 <importantshock> i'd like to write a bf interpreter in haskell...but the amount of monads involved scares me.
09:25:28 <Figs> char [][] -> char*** is giving me trouble
09:25:37 <Figs> maybe I'm totally wrong on that one :D
09:26:19 <Figs> I'll just double the size :P
09:26:24 <Figs> handle it me-self.
09:27:02 <oklopol> "<MotH-> "Balalaikka" in Finnish" <<< haha, all the loonies are finnish
09:29:10 <oklopol> "<Sgeo> Is there a particular format that's used most often?" <<< use brainfuck as you'd use bitchanger
09:29:23 <oklopol> ...also, don't give advise to people that aren't there
09:31:23 <oklopol> oh, i now realize what he ws using that for
09:36:14 <Figs> it just blew up :D
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09:40:06 <oklopol> i was night watchman at this place the last two nights
09:40:22 <oklopol> first night i went there 2 hours early... because i'm an idiot or smth
09:40:34 <oklopol> made the scheme interpreter \o/
09:40:44 <oklopol> but didn't learn the song yet :<
09:40:59 <oklopol> my friends hallway didn't have a piano.ö
09:43:00 <oklopol> it's a stub of an interpreter though.
09:43:13 <oklopol> i haven't even made it tail recurse yet :D
09:43:43 <oklopol> well... i guess it tail recurses, even C can do that, but it doesn't optimize it
09:44:52 <Figs> why is this thing crashing O_o
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09:51:00 <oklopol> >>> sch (define factorial (lambda (a) (if (= a 0) 1 (if (= a 1) 1 (* a (factorial (- a 1)))))))(factorial 6)
09:52:45 <oklopol> >>> sch (define (factorial a) (cond ((= a 0) 1) ((= a 1) 1) (1 (* a (factorial (- a 1)))))) (factorial 6)
09:54:03 <oklopol> it has static scoping and basic operations + basic special forms, but it's pretty stubbist
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10:29:26 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/MeAsRu82.html
10:29:34 <Figs> do you guys see anything wrong with this? :S
10:35:28 <Figs> there's something wrong in either '[' or ']' since it keeps segfaulting
10:42:22 <Figs> can you imagine paying $2000 for a piece of software?
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12:03:11 <oerjan> Figs: it looks to me that ] jumps unconditionally to just _after_ the matching [, because of the i++ in the for loop
12:05:16 <Figs> oerjan: Unfortunately, I've modifed it so much since then that's not relevant any more, but thanks for looking...
12:05:21 <Figs> you can help me debug the new version ^_^
12:05:42 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/dh4L2C10.html
12:07:04 <oerjan> might add a check for \0 in find_bracket
12:08:20 <Figs> I'm pretty sure the problem isn't with find_bracket
12:08:27 <Figs> at least the one I'm dealing with now
12:08:33 <Figs> but yeah, I know there is a bug there
12:08:37 <oerjan> that was just for added error checking
12:08:41 <Figs> or a possible problem
12:08:59 <Figs> I'll add something to it later if I get further along and there's more errors
12:09:08 <Figs> for the real version though, I don't know if it'd matter
12:09:59 <Figs> the most recent issue is that somewhere my data in the stack got corrupted
12:10:06 <Figs> or I'm setting it to the wrong place
12:10:22 <oerjan> eek, linked list. why do you need it doubly-linked, just for a stack?
12:10:49 <Figs> just the stack
12:11:04 <Figs> seemed like the easiest way to put it together without too much work
12:11:50 <Figs> I'd rather use C++, but the Obfus. C people don't accept obfuscated C++ :P
12:12:05 <Figs> if they did, I'd have been done hours ago
12:12:42 <oerjan> oh, it's obfuscated, i guess doubly-linked is fine then ;)
12:12:44 <Figs> the brainfuck program I am using to test it is +++[-]
12:12:58 <Figs> right now, obviously, it's not :)
12:13:54 <oerjan> do any of your asserts fire?
12:14:37 <Figs> as far as I can tell somewhere in pop
12:15:13 <oerjan> add an assert(current) in pop?
12:16:35 <Figs> 0x22b153, 0x77c5fc80
12:16:47 <Figs> so here's the problem
12:16:52 <Figs> current = current->back;
12:16:58 <Figs> now the data is wrong.
12:17:17 <Figs> call changed from 0x22b153 to that other one
12:17:27 <Figs> and now it's garbage
12:17:52 <Figs> segfaults when you try to free it
12:19:40 <oerjan> _did_ you add an assert(current) in pop?
12:20:09 <Figs> the first assert works
12:20:34 <oerjan> i suppose that would have segfaulted if not
12:22:04 <Figs> the reason it segfaults is free(current->next) fails
12:23:03 <oerjan> i am wondering about current->next->back = ¤t
12:23:27 <oerjan> does ¤t even exist beyond the call to push?
12:23:31 <Figs> that's probably wrong.
12:24:25 <Figs> now I have a failed assertation
12:24:35 <Figs> current->back!=0 on line 58
12:25:50 <Figs> I put a current!=0 before that
12:25:55 <Figs> didn't fail on that
12:26:35 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/x7bDuD78.html
12:26:39 <Figs> not much different
12:26:44 <Figs> but so we're still looking at the same thing
12:27:45 <Figs> note to self: callstack = 0x3d2470
12:28:39 <oerjan> ah... that i++ after find_bracket on line 106 may be wrong
12:28:54 <oerjan> same problem as i initially mentioned :D
12:29:16 <oerjan> but in the other direction
12:30:11 <oerjan> i suppose [ and ] somehow popping too much stack would cause your other problem
12:30:44 <Figs> hold on, still stepping through
12:30:53 <Figs> so far it's gotten through the first pop properly
12:31:34 <Figs> I found the problem
12:31:52 <Figs> (although that might still be wrong)
12:32:18 <Figs> the problem I guess is that it's not poping back where it should O.o
12:32:31 <Figs> I need -1 from i
12:33:50 <Figs> just nice sweet working-ness ^_^
12:34:00 <oerjan> great. now i go for lunch :)
12:34:26 <Figs> thanks for looking oerjan ;)
12:34:40 <Figs> I should go to bed now
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12:44:03 <Figs> !bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
12:44:24 <EgoBot> To use an interpreter: <interpreter> <program> Note: <program> can be the actual program, an http:// URL, or a file:// URL which refers to my pseudofilesystem.
12:45:04 <Figs> right... how do I give egobot an input sequence?
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12:56:36 <Figs> aha, oerjan was right
12:57:58 <Figs> *now* it works properly.
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13:04:18 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/cKTRLJ66.html
13:04:21 <Figs> I think I got it right
13:04:42 <Figs> I'm sure you guys are all going to laugh at my for being so bad at writing a bf interpreter in C... :P
13:05:10 <Figs> time now for me to obfuscate it...
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14:16:39 <Sgeo> Hi Tritonio and Figs
14:36:12 <Figs> http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:Z661JiPJ_08J:sysspider.vectorstar.net/papers/obftricks.txt
14:36:19 <Figs> that'll cheer you up SimonRC
14:36:32 <Figs> or destroy your faith in humanity further
14:36:35 <Figs> one or the otehr.
14:36:45 * Figs asks SimonRC what's troubling him...
14:37:00 <SimonRC> or rather, people who believe in it
14:37:51 <SimonRC> They are failing to see the difference between things that are simple to nature but very strange to humans, and things that are simple to humans but highly complex and arbitrary to nature.
14:37:55 * Figs sings... "Do you believe in magic...?"
14:38:18 <SimonRC> They fail to see how ridiculously human-centric their point of view is.
14:38:27 <Figs> welcome to life :P
14:39:11 <SimonRC> there is an upside though...
14:39:40 <SimonRC> I am writing the explanation while role-playing a species not at all related to humans...
14:40:00 <SimonRC> Therefore I can be very rude and tell them they have the brains of monkies at it is "role-playing"
14:40:05 <Figs> I'm writing an obfuscated brainfuck interpreter for the Obfus C Contest
14:40:19 <SimonRC> Figs: make it a super-optimising one
14:40:32 <Figs> right now it's bulkier than hell at 17k
14:40:37 <SimonRC> at the very least it should spot null-movement loops
14:41:15 <Figs> actually, the code is much bigger than the source
14:41:16 <SimonRC> Figs: in return I give you this gift: http://mindprod.com/jgloss/unmain.html
14:41:23 <Figs> source is like 3 k
14:41:30 <SimonRC> compress it in a silly way then
14:41:48 <SimonRC> unmain is great; take an hour out to read it
14:42:06 <Figs> I'll read it sometime when I'm not 6 hours past my bed time :)
14:43:43 <SimonRC> Maybe try to make the code as readable as possible. High-level incomprehensibility will win you more points than low-level incomprehensibility.
14:44:11 <Figs> I was thinking of doing a lot of gotos and function pointers
14:44:11 <SimonRC> Figs: you must be in oceania
14:44:19 <Figs> I'm in California
14:44:30 <Figs> it's 7 am here
14:44:35 <Figs> (give or take)
14:44:55 <Figs> switches in switches... conditional gotos
14:45:09 <Figs> switches with gotos
14:45:11 <SimonRC> "#define foo(a, b) ((a - b++) * (a * b))" <-- gaah! undefined!
14:45:29 <Figs> and of course, naming everything with underscores
14:45:30 <SimonRC> Thou Shalt Not Invoke Undefined Behaviour.
14:45:39 <Figs> _, __, ___, ____, ______
14:46:08 <Figs> {/*]{8*/{}}{}{{{}}}
14:46:16 <SimonRC> (like building a big stack by recursing a lot then scribbling all over it for storage. (like that program that had no variables, one year)
14:46:36 <Figs> I should do that
14:46:37 * SimonRC tries to find the funny Java he made once
14:46:44 <Figs> that would be awesome....
14:46:56 <Figs> actually I already have a stack as a linked list in my program
14:47:01 <SimonRC> unless you add a new twist...
14:47:21 <Figs> I'll probably stick with a wall of redirection though
14:47:37 <SimonRC> the program worked almost everywhere, it could detect which way the stack built.
14:47:43 <Figs> I was thinking of doing
14:47:49 <Figs> #define fuck ****
14:47:57 <Figs> typedef char brain;
14:48:04 <Figs> brain fuck pointer;
14:48:09 <Figs> at some point for fun
14:48:28 <Figs> reverse censoring!
14:48:51 <Figs> passing the code through gcc -E would censor it... :P
14:49:27 <Figs> but I don't know.
14:49:29 <Figs> I might not do that for this
14:53:46 <SimonRC> (We were set the task of writing a christmas-related program. I wrote this: http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/~sc/tmp/xmastree.zip )
14:54:08 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/NMOgLP83.html
14:54:11 <SimonRC> Figs: actually that would be funny
14:54:12 <Figs> this seems to compile
14:54:29 <SimonRC> "Most/Least polite program"
14:54:42 <Figs> especially if I could do some punning
14:54:47 <SimonRC> though an intercal-corrector would be better for that title
14:54:53 <Figs> so that it totally changes the meaning after converting it
14:55:07 <Figs> intercal-corrector?
14:55:29 <SimonRC> you know that an INTERCAL requires the correct level of politeness to compile, right?
14:56:18 <Figs> have to say 'please' all the time and such
14:56:44 <Figs> I didn't realize I could nest structs in main
15:01:52 <Figs> I need some rude text
15:04:21 <Figs> could you please curse at me?
15:04:27 <SimonRC> what is this program supposed to do?
15:04:29 <Figs> I need a half paragraph of rude text
15:04:44 <Figs> Brain Fuck interpreter
15:05:13 <Figs> why do I only get cursed at when I don't want to be cursed at?
15:05:23 <Figs> I've asked in 3 places :'(
15:06:01 <SimonRC> Where does it get the brainfuck from?
15:07:43 <Figs> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Profanity
15:07:45 <SimonRC> You could write the program in Brainfuck initially, then port it to C, to get extra-weird C
15:07:59 <Figs> a brainfuck interpreter in brainfuck fucks my brain
15:07:59 <SimonRC> or course, it will be more comprehensible to anyone familiar with idiomatic BF
15:08:20 <SimonRC> find one tat is well-commented, then port it badly
15:08:20 <Figs> I already wrote the interpreter in C
15:08:32 <Figs> I need a paragraph of cursing
15:10:31 <SimonRC> did you look at my java program?
15:11:11 <Figs> I don't know java though :P
15:11:15 <sp3tt> I won't tough java, even for money.
15:11:46 <SimonRC> it has some good techniquies, like a method with the same name as main's argument, everything being named after ___, and the ternary operator
15:12:22 <SimonRC> and of course, it performs recursion on the structure of a string, which really fucks up the C programmers' brains
15:13:34 <SimonRC> ooh, that's a good technique: you can emulate immutable lists quickly using array slices, then represent an array slice as a struct that has three ints in it.
15:13:49 <SimonRC> and you know what else has three ints? That's right, a color!
15:14:00 <SimonRC> so you end up representing lists as colors
15:14:08 <SimonRC> I just thought that up, BTW
15:14:22 <SimonRC> be sure to re-suse unralted stuff as much as possible
15:15:00 <SimonRC> be sure to split the struct into seperate arguments for no good reason too occasioanlly
15:15:33 <SimonRC> and with small representation of immutable lists is great for your FP techniques (confusing for c programmers)
15:15:45 <SimonRC> sneak in Haskell-style classes if you can
15:20:09 <SimonRC> of course, a function curried over two 1-word arguments is really just a function pointer and two ints
15:20:18 <SimonRC> that will fit nicely into a color too!
15:20:26 <SimonRC> so now a color is a function
15:21:50 <ehird`> SimonRC: lists as clours... hmm... but will the max value be 255?
15:22:55 <SimonRC> no these are 3-word colours for "flexibility"
15:23:16 <SimonRC> mybe you could abuse struct_tm or something else instead
15:25:00 <ehird`> "now you don't have to be a human to use your whole eye range!"
15:26:17 <ehird`> "note: lists-as-colours may only be efficiently used by little green men with exceptional eyesight."
15:26:44 <SimonRC> the most confusing FP technique is passing a function to another function, which passitslef to it
15:27:11 <SimonRC> e.g. f g x = g (foo x) f (bar x)
15:32:27 <navaburo> SimonRC: what do foo and bar represent in that line?
15:33:28 <SimonRC> just some functions or other
15:50:29 <Figs> I have decided.
15:50:41 <Figs> since it's almost 8 am, I will not sleep.
15:50:53 * Figs shall break his awake-ness record!
15:51:28 * Figs is at 16 hours of awakeness right now.
16:04:09 <ehird`> SimonRC: f foo bar g x = g (foo x) f (bar x) -- confusing function generator, takes two arguments
16:04:24 <ehird`> "f foo bar -- returns a confusing function"
16:06:47 <Figs> http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/bf/quine.b.txt
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16:27:21 <Keymaker> http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/programs/smurf/99.smu
16:27:59 <Figs> brainfuck quine :P
16:28:03 <Figs> I thought it was pretty neat
16:30:02 <Keymaker> one can run the program by using safalra's smurf interpreter, for example, which can be found here: http://www.safalra.com/programming/esoteric-languages/smurf/interpreter/
16:30:40 <navaburo> wait... ooo, quines _are_ non trivial
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16:35:36 <Figs> howdy squid-ly one .
16:35:40 <Figs> how goes thee?
16:35:59 * Sgeo feels moderate guilt
16:37:54 <Sgeo> PSOX won't be EsoAPI compatible..
16:38:27 <Sgeo> and isn't calamari the EsoAPI person?
16:39:00 -!- Keymaker has quit.
16:39:43 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt
16:42:19 <Figs> I wrote a quine in C++ before :P
16:42:28 <Figs> (ie, not using printf)
16:43:03 <Figs> the trick I think was to do printf myself C++ constructs :P
16:46:24 <Figs> lemme see if I still have it
16:48:07 <Figs> I dunno where it is
16:54:09 <navaburo> allright, well i allready broke down and cheeted
16:54:17 * navaburo looksed at http://www.nyx.net/~gthompso/self_c.txt
16:54:45 <Figs> do it without printf :D
16:54:47 <navaburo> the trick commonly employed there is to use printf formatting
16:55:16 <Figs> that sounded bad
16:55:22 <SimonRC> (you could just use the Ken Thompson technique)
16:55:26 <navaburo> the format chars are used once as format chars and once as just plain output
16:56:00 <Figs> ohh, how about a preprocessor quine? :P
16:56:47 <Figs> I like the last one
16:56:56 <Figs> "" <-- shortest possible quine
16:57:16 <Figs> "Worst Abuse of the Rules" award in 1994 IOCCC
16:58:05 <navaburo> well... actually ld freaks out
16:58:24 <Figs> you have to be creative with a makefile to make it work :)
16:58:31 <Figs> but you can do it
16:58:45 <navaburo> you shouldnt be allowed to use a make file!
16:59:04 <Figs> that's why it's the "worst abuse of the rules EVAR"
16:59:09 <navaburo> if you REALY want one, put it at the top of the .c file
16:59:20 <Figs> since they require you to provide build instructions or a portable make file
16:59:43 <navaburo> i figgured it was something like, it HAS to compile with gcc foo.c
16:59:43 <Figs> thunder in San Diego
16:59:47 <Figs> I bet it'll rain
16:59:52 <Figs> first time in 100+ days supposedly
17:00:05 <Figs> read the rules :P
17:00:17 <navaburo> it is curious that it is difficult to write quines
17:00:34 <Figs> http://www0.us.ioccc.org/2006/rules.txt
17:00:45 <Figs> prove something mathematical about quines :P
17:01:00 <navaburo> i wonder if there are turing-complete languages with resonable output capability that cannot implement a quine
17:01:35 <Figs> depends if you can look at your own source code or not
17:02:35 <navaburo> right.... actually , it may be trivial to write a quine in C
17:03:10 <navaburo> what about compiling with -g and parsing the running binary for the debug info containing the source code?
17:07:23 <Figs> http://www0.us.ioccc.org/1987/westley.c
17:09:04 <Figs> http://www0.us.ioccc.org/2004/gavin.c << Mini-OS
17:11:06 <Figs> This is a 32-bit multitasking operating system for x86 computers,
17:11:06 <Figs> with GUI and filesystem, support for loading and executing user
17:11:06 <Figs> applications in elf binary format, with ps2 mouse and keyboard drivers,
17:11:06 <Figs> and vesa graphics. And a command shell. And an application -
17:11:06 <Figs> a simple text-file viewer.
17:13:18 <Figs> that's an IOCCC winner :)
17:14:14 <Figs> you need the rest of it
17:14:18 <Figs> http://www0.us.ioccc.org/years-spoiler.html
17:14:24 <Figs> scroll down to gavin - Mini-OS
17:15:04 <Figs> and you have to do it on Linux :P
17:18:00 <navaburo> but i am going to think (mathematically) about these 'quines' later...
17:20:41 <calamari> Sgeo: I wrote EsoAPI such that I could fit its implemention into a 512-byte boot sector. I don't mind if you come up with something different.. hehe
17:22:28 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/mbphjc24.html
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17:48:38 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/iv2lMb85.html
17:57:20 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/MJYs2L76.html
17:57:23 * Figs is getting weirder
18:14:54 <Figs> did you know you can impliment exceptions in C with setjmp and the preprocessor?
18:15:00 <Figs> http://www.di.unipi.it/~nids/docs/longjump_try_trow_catch.shtml
18:15:10 <Figs> TRY/CATCH/FINALLY
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18:21:07 <Tritonio> I finally gave my project...........................
18:24:31 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/I39o8e51.html
18:24:38 <Figs> Tritonio: prepare to be terrified
18:24:48 <Figs> it isn't so evil yet
18:24:51 <Figs> but it will be soon
18:26:13 <Figs> it's my setjmp hello world program
18:27:09 <Figs> it's the header for jmp_buf, setjmp, and longjmp
18:28:11 <Figs> jmp_buf stores the state of the program at a particular point so you can jump back to it and continue
18:28:25 <Figs> (the stacks and things)
18:28:35 <Figs> so you can impliment complex exception handling and such directly in C
18:28:48 <Figs> foo is the jmp_buf
18:29:10 <Figs> setjmp returns 0 when called
18:29:14 <Tritonio> you first create snapshot of the stacks etc....
18:29:32 <Figs> then when you call longjmp with the jmp_buf and an int
18:29:37 <Figs> it returns the int when you go back
18:29:49 <Figs> so here, I use the ternary operator do basicall do false first
18:29:53 <Figs> then true later
18:30:00 <Figs> _ and __ are functions
18:30:29 <Figs> (x? __ : _)(f); executes __(f) if x is true, or _(f) if it is not
18:31:03 <Figs> I'm an evil son-of-a-bitch :D
18:31:13 <Tritonio> does the true part ever execute?
18:32:17 <Tritonio> what is the second parameter of longjmp?
18:32:24 <Figs> the value to return when you go back
18:32:33 <Figs> so when it goes back, it returns 1
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18:33:08 <Tritonio> so you first call setjump that returns 0 and stores the current state at the same time
18:33:18 <Tritonio> because it returned zero you execute _
18:33:36 <Tritonio> and then _ jumps back to the point where you saved the state of the program
18:34:02 <Figs> wait until I add variable flow based on time...
18:34:36 <Tritonio> you really don't have too... ;-)
18:34:38 <Figs> as long as it eventually does the same thing, I can have it go about doing things in multiple different ways
18:34:56 <Figs> I want to get the worst abuses of flow award
18:35:13 <Figs> sadly, I doubt I'll be able to beat the true masters of the art
18:35:20 <Figs> but you never know ;)
18:35:54 <Figs> non-local jump, function pointers, etc are not exactly typical
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19:24:30 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/WMKiDv18.html
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19:33:05 <Figs> you were partially write
19:33:10 <Figs> there was a bug there
19:33:18 <Figs> any way, http://rafb.net/p/WMKiDv18.html
19:33:46 <Figs> I am now working on finding evil things to make my flow crazy
19:35:55 <Figs> and it will only get better (read: worse) as I find ways to make it more complex
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20:00:29 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/LvIgFU52.html
20:06:11 <oerjan> you gotta do better than that, it was almost as easy as plain code to understand
20:06:44 <Figs> yes, but can you see how it will get more complex when you scale it up? :P
20:07:24 <Figs> especially when I start mixing it with gotos and longjmps...
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20:38:59 <SimonRC> You can't write obfuscated code in bits.
20:39:09 <SimonRC> You must write it all at once, otherwise it is too modular.
20:40:34 <SimonRC> navaburo: Ken Thompson wrote an easily-memorised quine.
20:42:13 <Figs> I'm practicing my techniques
20:42:17 <Figs> and thinking up new ideas
20:42:33 <Figs> it's a good way to force myself to read more of the documentation
20:43:01 <Figs> I'm starting to like C
20:43:13 <Figs> just for the fact that it has less weird cases than C++
20:43:21 <Figs> not much more readable though
20:44:01 <pikhq> You want a weird case?
20:44:12 <Figs> as many as you know.
20:44:22 <pikhq> A char is neither a signed or an unsigned case. ;)
20:44:41 <Figs> makes no difference to me
20:44:49 <Figs> I always thought signed chars were kind of silly.
20:45:26 <Figs> I mean the fact that C lacks constructors and destructors makes it simpler to reason about
20:45:52 <Figs> the fact that C lacks methods is at once annoying but simplifying
20:46:28 <Figs> each part is easier to reason about in general since there are less weird exceptions to the rules (or so it seems)
20:47:56 <Figs> I think I'll really like haskell for that in some ways when I get to it
20:50:38 <SimonRC> Actually, chars are either signed of unsigned by default. Implementations may choose.
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21:00:03 <Sukoshi> How do you have the time to set up Gentoo?!
21:00:11 <Sukoshi> *Nothing* comes in the install by default!
21:00:39 <pikhq> sudo emerge -av zsh elinks screen irssi bitlbee
21:00:49 <pikhq> Start up screen, get irssi, bitlbee, and elinks setup.
21:00:56 <pikhq> sudo emerge -av ratpoison firefox
21:01:12 <pikhq> Get a simple window manager set up and firefox. Install Conkeror for my sanity.
21:01:19 <pikhq> Finally, sudo emerge -av kde-meta
21:01:28 <pikhq> Voila. I've got 90% of what I need.
21:01:38 <Sukoshi> I'm doing an emerge update --deep world now, because I changed some use flags that were built shoddily into some packages I made.
21:01:53 <pikhq> Try "emerge -avuDN world".
21:01:55 <Sukoshi> Does that grab everything that your user flags want?
21:02:10 <Sukoshi> Well, hrm. I've been doing that since 2 hours ago.
21:02:22 <pikhq> -avuDN will also rebuild packages with changed use flags.
21:02:40 <Sukoshi> Because I added that in too.
21:02:42 -!- Figs has left (?).
21:02:52 <Sukoshi> So it'll grab everything my USE flags told it to?
21:03:15 <Sukoshi> Then everything shall be set up after this, and I can sit down to configging fun.
21:03:36 <Sukoshi> Still, some of the use flags are annoying. My first build of imagemagick did not have jpg support.
21:03:47 <Sukoshi> Because I didn't explicitly put jpeg in USE :P
21:03:53 <pikhq> Try using the desktop profile.
21:04:03 <Sukoshi> Hm. Doesen't it come by default?
21:04:06 <pikhq> (which I ought to switch to, instead of my really, really long USE list)
21:04:15 <Sukoshi> Yeah, I have a really really long USE list.
21:04:17 <pikhq> No, the default profile is very bare-bones.
21:04:42 <Sukoshi> Ah! See, the install handbook should say that instead of ``look at the other profiles''.
21:05:48 <Sukoshi> The trouble is, after this long compile/wget marathon, now I have to see if everything else works.
21:06:18 <Sukoshi> And set up my Japanese and dev environments.
21:06:52 <pikhq> I usually set aside a weekend to get comfortable with a Gentoo install.
21:07:21 <Sukoshi> I *had* set up a day, but it turned out that this day turned out very busy, and this weekend my busiest weekend of the summer :P
21:07:33 <pikhq> It's still summer for you?
21:07:54 <Sukoshi> Well, unlike y'all midwestern bumpkins, we don't end for summer when it isn't even hot.
21:08:47 <pikhq> What's your locale, again?
21:08:53 <Sukoshi> Or non Californian then. Happy?
21:09:18 <Sukoshi> Well, I know a lot of the people in the Midwest and some from the East end school around end of May?
21:09:40 <pikhq> Yeah; I've got summer from the end of May to mid-August.
21:09:43 <Sukoshi> Which I've never understood, because summer's heat doesen't even come until mid-June, when the 95 F temperatures start becoming normal.
21:09:56 <pikhq> 95F temperatures?!?
21:10:03 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving").
21:10:05 <Sukoshi> This is California, not frigids-ville :P
21:10:18 <Sukoshi> It's funny seeing you people on the news literally dying in heat waves of 92 F.
21:10:20 <pikhq> Oh, so it's unbearable-temperature-ville.
21:10:37 <Sukoshi> Because it's fairly common to reach into the mid-90s in summer here.
21:10:48 <pikhq> 95 is an unusual temperature. . .
21:11:03 <pikhq> We're usually in about the 80s during summer. . .
21:11:15 <pikhq> (something in the 60s at night)
21:11:26 <Sukoshi> Wow. That's only a few degrees above room temperature.
21:12:00 <Sukoshi> bsmntbombdood: Live around Arizona/New Mexico/thereparts?
21:12:19 <pikhq> We also have negative humidity. :)
21:12:35 <Sukoshi> California generally does, except for this freakish summer.
21:13:06 <pikhq> Well, in that case, mid-90s wouldn't be all that bad.
21:13:20 <Sukoshi> Ah, yes. We don't get the New York style humid-heat.
21:13:31 <Sukoshi> That there's a killer from 85 up.
21:13:59 <Sukoshi> bsmntbombdood: Hmph. It gets that hot in California?
21:14:12 <Sukoshi> I always thought it was cooler because it was higher up.
21:14:40 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Where in Colorado are you?
21:15:04 <pikhq> Ah. Yeah, you're roasting.
21:16:40 <Sukoshi> I shall now leave to study as soon as I determine what emerge is compiling.
21:17:13 * pikhq enjoys the weather out by Colorado Springs. ;)
21:18:10 <pikhq> Well, lower nineties this week. . .
21:18:52 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: clearly on a good day. at least by Trondheim standards.
21:20:05 <oerjan> in Trondheim, 80 would be a good summer day. 60 would be slightly below average.
21:20:32 <Sukoshi> Eastern Europeans don't count, because you guys don't even know the meaning of the word ``sunlight'' :P
21:21:17 <oerjan> that 80 day would be sunny, of course, and the 60 probably rainy.
21:21:36 <oerjan> in winter it usually hovers unpredictably around 32.
21:22:12 <pikhq> Both warmer and colder than Colorado. XD
21:22:34 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: It's the snowstorms that do it.
21:22:51 <pikhq> Not pay attention in December?
21:22:54 <bsmntbombdood> it's 100 in the summer and rarely below 32 in the winter
21:27:33 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_20-21%2C_2006_Colorado_Blizzard
21:33:39 <Sukoshi> Is it bad to add -perl to the USE flags list?
21:34:23 <Sukoshi> (Says me after 3 hours of emerging.)
21:35:09 <Sukoshi> I mean, I don't care about neither Perl, nor Ruby, so I didn't think -perl or -ruby would be bad.
21:35:23 <Sukoshi> But I added in python, so.
21:36:52 <pikhq> -perl would only disable that as an optional dependency, so it wouldn't be a bad thing.
21:37:15 <pikhq> (although you'll still *have* Perl, since Portage uses Perl extensively)
21:38:16 <Sukoshi> I have concluded that libc is being built now.
21:38:25 <Sukoshi> Hooray. This is what I switched from Slackware for.
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23:37:21 <SimonRC> oooh, pretty: http://www.teamhassenplug.org/GBC/
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02:30:42 <Sgeo> pikhq? SimonRC?
02:30:52 <Sgeo> bsmntbombdood?
02:31:21 * Sgeo is thinking up how to handle unsafe functions in PSOX
02:31:33 <Sgeo> But it's a bit involved
02:31:38 * Sgeo goes to write up specs
02:37:35 * Sgeo silently changes a command around in the PSOX spec
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02:47:57 <Sgeo> Congrats to anyone who figures it out!
03:33:30 <Sgeo> hm, maybe I shouldn't have Unsafe functionality be as complicated as I'm imagining it...
03:54:55 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-exit-demo.b
03:57:02 <pikhq> Looks like it ought to be easy to implement PEBBLE macros for it. :)
03:57:33 <pikhq> I may want to add the "if-provided" feature that I've been meaning to, though.
03:58:32 <pikhq> To test to see if a compiler provides certain features. . .
03:58:51 <Sgeo> PSOX isn't part of the compiler..
03:58:58 <pikhq> if-provided PSOX {code}, for example, to test to see if PSOX is supported in the target language.
03:59:32 <pikhq> Some of the target languages mightn't allow for PSOX.
03:59:42 <Sgeo> pikhq, examples?
03:59:54 <pikhq> C. Interpreter backend.
04:00:11 <pikhq> Also useful if I want to do PSOX-specific versions of macros. . .
04:00:32 <Sgeo> PSOX has to be enabled at the beginning of the program..
04:00:50 <pikhq> Clearly, you don't get what I mean.
04:00:59 <Sgeo> I probably don't :(
04:01:25 <pikhq> Trying to allow for one bit of source-code to compile to something which uses PSOX and something which doesn't.
04:03:14 <Sgeo> Question: Is it ok if a program has to declare that it wants to use unsafe features at the beginning, before doing anything else?
04:04:53 <pikhq> As far as I'm concerned: yes.
04:06:24 <Sgeo> Did you catch what function I switched around?
04:07:39 <pikhq> No, I've not looked.
04:11:04 <pikhq> Not even started to bother.
04:11:42 * Sgeo switched [0x00 0x01 0x00] 0x00 0x06 to [0x00 0x01 0x00] 0x00 0x07
04:14:21 <Sgeo> It's so I can place the Request Unsafe Functionality there
04:14:45 <Sgeo> Since 6, with it's relation to 666, and the fact that it's unsafe..
04:28:33 <Sgeo> Igh, too tired to work on this now..
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13:07:15 <Karnaugh> Could somebody please open a socket to microsoft.com on port 80?
13:11:00 <oerjan> http://www.microsoft.com loads fine here
13:11:41 <Karnaugh> this language doesn't work very well
13:19:17 <oerjan> i just translated your instruction to a higher level :)
13:22:12 <oerjan> or whatever it's called
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18:44:48 <oklopol> >>> sch (define (cons a b) (lambda (n) (cond ((= n 0) a) (1 b))))(define (car a) (a 0))(define (cdr a) (a 1))(cdr (car (cons (cons 1 2) (cons 3 4))))
18:45:51 <oklopol> hmm.. wonder if i should actually add those primitively... they might be a bit essential
19:04:53 <ehird`> oklopol: make NOTHING primitive that you can't
19:05:20 <ehird`> oklopol: I assume + is (- x (neg y))? ;)
19:08:17 <oklopol> lament: i wrote one on friday, yeah, just didn't make that much primitives, since i was lazy
19:09:17 <oklopol> it should now save stuff between runs
19:10:53 <oklopol> guess i should try and fix that
19:11:13 <oklopol> i need a better brain, always making mistakes in trivial code...
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19:18:02 <oklopol> now it works... didn't change the code.
19:18:27 <oklopol> sch (define (cons a b) (lambda (n) (cond ((= n 0) a) (1 b))))(define (car a) (a 0))(define (cdr a) (a 1))
19:18:36 <oklopol> >>> sch (define (cons a b) (lambda (n) (cond ((= n 0) a) (1 b))))(define (car a) (a 0))(define (cdr a) (a 1))
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19:27:06 <oklopol> haha, guess i should continue debugging offline :D
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20:23:15 <oklopol> insisted on using primitive lists and was lazy, so i don't have stuff like (2 3 4 . 5)
20:23:44 <oklopol> but it should work as long as you use cons just with a list as r-param...
20:28:17 * oerjan had hoped for a spectacular crash
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20:29:12 <oklopol> i don't think you can crash it
20:29:28 <oklopol> you can crash the interpreter though
20:30:41 <oklopol> is "undef" a scheme command?
20:30:47 <oklopol> i mean, does that exist in scheme
20:32:21 <oklopol> i can't find such a command
20:32:51 <oklopol> >>> sch (define (k a) (lambda (b) a))
20:33:30 <oklopol> >>> sch (define k (lambda (a) (lambda (b) a)))
20:34:34 <oklopol> i guess i broke the whole thing when adding lists, had to make a gigantic refactoring
20:34:55 <oklopol> you'd think i'd've debugged after that, but noooo
20:43:10 <oklopol> >>> sch (define i (lambda (a) a))
20:43:18 <oklopol> wonder what that was about.
20:43:41 <oerjan> >>> sch (if (< 0 1) 1 2)
20:44:18 <oklopol> >>> sch (define s (lambda (a) (lambda (b) (lambda (c) ((a c) (b c))))))
20:45:49 <oerjan> sch (define fib (lambda (n) (if (< n 2) 1 (+ (fib (- n 1) (- n 2))))))
20:45:54 <oerjan> >>> sch (define fib (lambda (n) (if (< n 2) 1 (+ (fib (- n 1) (- n 2))))))
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20:46:24 <oklopol> (fib (- n 1) (- n 2)) <<< sure about this? :)
20:46:52 <oerjan> >>> sch (define fib (lambda (n) (if (< n 2) 1 (+ (fib (- n 1)) (fib (- n 2)))))))
20:47:20 <oklopol> it doesn't optimize tail recursion, so be gentle :)
20:47:26 <oerjan> warning: big numbers not recommended
20:47:41 <oerjan> this fib is not even tail recursive :)
20:48:35 <oklopol> >>> sch (define s (lambda (a) (lambda (b) (lambda (c) ((a c) (b c))))))
20:49:56 <oerjan> what should it give? 1 is not a function is it?
20:50:58 <oklopol> >>> sch (define s-guy (lambda (a) (lambda (b) 9)))
20:51:13 <oklopol> >>> sch (define s-boy (lambda (a) 0))
20:52:26 <oklopol> >>> sch (define a (k 5)) (define b (k 6)) (+ (a 7) (b 8))
20:52:34 <oklopol> static scoping should work fine
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20:57:58 <oerjan> >>> sch (((s (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y)))) (lambda (y) (+ y 1))) 1)
20:58:47 <oklopol> that must be broken in a very weird way.
20:59:45 <oklopol> you could try first doing what s does manually
21:00:14 <oklopol> >>> sch (((lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y))) 1) ((lambda (y) (+ y 1)) 1))
21:00:43 <oklopol> >>> sch((lambda (y) (+ y 1)) 1)
21:00:45 <oklopol> >>> sch ((lambda (y) (+ y 1)) 1)
21:01:03 <oklopol> >>> sch (((lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y))) 1) 2)
21:02:05 <oklopol> okay, if that doesn't work, then the problem can't be that deep
21:02:15 <oklopol> i mean, it prolly isn't deep
21:02:23 <oklopol> wonder what could do that...
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21:05:00 <oklopol> the problem is i haven't done python list -> my own list wrap yet for all the lambda code... i think...
21:06:17 <oklopol> >>> sch (((lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y))) 1) 2)
21:06:25 <oklopol> >>> sch (((lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y))) 1) ((lambda (y) (+ y 1)) 1))
21:06:57 <oklopol> for a minute i thought it workde.
21:07:43 <oerjan> >>> sch (((s (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y)))) (lambda (y) (+ y 1))) 1)
21:09:16 <oklopol> >>> sch (((s (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y)))) (lambda (y) (+ y 1))) 1)
21:09:32 <oklopol> but... it worked a second ago... it's just not working online :\
21:09:45 <oklopol> >>> sch (define s (lambda (a) (lambda (b) (lambda (c) ((a c) (b c))))))
21:10:00 <oerjan> >>> sch (((s (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y)))) (lambda (y) (+ y 1))) 1)
21:10:01 <oklopol> >>> sch (define k (lambda (a) (lambda (b) (a))))
21:10:04 <oklopol> >>> sch (define k (lambda (a) (lambda (b) a)))
21:10:59 <oerjan> >>> sch (define i (lambda (a) a))
21:11:15 <oklopol> the problem was in my function for checking what variable names a function uses for the purpose of clozeurs.
21:11:51 <bsmntbombdood_> >>> sch ((lamdba (x) (list x (list (quote quote) x))) (quote (lamdba (x) (list x (list (quote quote) x)))))
21:12:19 <oerjan> spelling lambda correctly might help
21:12:36 <oklopol> i don't have list, didn't remember that existed
21:12:57 <oerjan> >>> sch (((s i) i) ((s i) i))
21:13:21 <bsmntbombdood_> >>> sch ((lambda (x) (list x (list (quote quote) x))) (quote (lambda (x) (list x (list (quote quote) x)))))
21:13:29 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood_: also "." doesn't exist yet
21:14:53 * oerjan wonders if his infinite loop is still running
21:15:02 <oklopol> oerjan: stack overflow in a millisecond
21:15:15 <bsmntbombdood_> >> sch ((lambda (x) (cons x (cons (cons (quote quote) (cons x (quote ()))) (quote ())))) (quote (lambda (x) (cons x (cons (cons (quote quote) (cons x (quote ()))) (quote ()))))))
21:15:25 <bsmntbombdood_> >>> sch ((lambda (x) (cons x (cons (cons (quote quote) (cons x (quote ()))) (quote ())))) (quote (lambda (x) (cons x (cons (cons (quote quote) (cons x (quote ()))) (quote ()))))))
21:16:37 <oklopol> >>> sch (eval (+ `(quote) `(5))
21:16:48 <oklopol> those are first-class, methinks
21:17:15 <oklopol> >>> sch (define a (lambda (a) (a (5))))
21:17:40 <oklopol> well yeah, if quote is first-order...
21:18:07 <oklopol> i haven't followed any spec
21:18:20 <oerjan> first-order and first-class aren't quite same, me thinks
21:18:24 <oklopol> i was just in my friends hallway waiting for him to come and programmed that...
21:18:39 <oklopol> and i don't know much about scheme
21:18:53 <oklopol> but... i gotta fix that, i want them to be first order...
21:19:54 <oklopol> >>> sch (eval `(quote (5)))
21:24:49 <oklopol> hmm... i should add an error message for bad requests...
21:25:09 <oklopol> !this does it, and ! is quite a lot more probable prefix for a random message than >>>
21:27:15 <oklopol> oh... darn, (a (5)) isn't considered a special form since what is evaluated and what is not is decided at the beginning of the eval-function...
21:27:35 <oklopol> the pattern (id num) will lead to normal evaluation
21:27:51 <oerjan> for first class macros i assume you need to evaluate the first element first, before deciding on the rest
21:27:53 <oklopol> hmm... guess i could fix that... but that's another refactoring... GADS
21:28:03 <oklopol> and that's exactly what i don't do yet
21:29:08 <oerjan> > liftM2 (,) [1..5] [1..5]
21:29:50 <oerjan> Wong Chan-Nel, my old nemesis, so we meet again
21:31:49 <oklopol> (define a (lambda (b) (b (5))))
21:31:54 <oerjan> at least you get to learn - a little haskell
21:32:00 <oklopol> >>> sch (define a (lambda (b) (b (5))))
21:32:34 <oklopol> anyway, i think it has first-class macros now
21:32:53 <oklopol> what's liftM2 then, oerjan
21:34:54 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure that change broke everything else, though
21:35:01 <oklopol> i mean that first-class zippidy
21:35:25 <oklopol> >>> sch ((lambda (x) (cons x (cons (cons (quote quote) (cons x (quote ()))) (quote ())))) (quote (lambda (x) (cons x (cons (cons (quote quote) (cons x (quote ()))) (quote ()))))))
21:36:52 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood_: is that supposed to be a quine?
21:37:04 <oklopol> why am i asking, i just checked with drscheme
21:37:41 <oklopol> >>> sch (cons (cons (quote quote) (cons x (quote ())))
21:38:04 <oklopol> >>> sch (cons x (quote ()))
21:38:06 <oklopol> >>> sch (cons x (quote ())
21:41:44 <oerjan> oklopol: liftM2 f cmd1 cmd2 = do x <- cmd1; y <- cmd2; return (f x y)
21:41:59 <oerjan> however, liftM2 (,) on lists is cartesian product
21:42:28 <oerjan> other monads will differ
21:42:44 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood_: i know, i'm gonna take it away soon, it was for debugging purposes
21:43:27 <oklopol> oerjan: i decided not to program it in scheme.
21:43:34 <oklopol> >>> sch ((lambda (x) (cons x (cons (cons (quote quote) (cons x (quote ()))) (quote ())))) (quote (lambda (x) (cons x (cons (cons (quote quote) (cons x (quote ()))) (quote ()))))))
21:43:57 <oerjan> i was sort of expecting that :D
21:44:13 <oklopol> i guess it's just too long with the type prefixes
21:44:39 <oerjan> perhaps if i write a pure list version with functions:
21:45:00 <oklopol> >>> sch ((lambda (x) (cons x (cons (cons (quote quote) (cons x (quote ()))) (quote ())))) (quote (lambda (x) (cons x (cons (cons (quote quote) (cons x (quote ()))) (quote ()))))))
21:45:18 <oklopol> it just worked, i saw it with my own i's
21:46:21 <oklopol> >>> sch ((lambda (x) (cons x (cons (cons (quote quote) (cons x (quote ()))) (quote ())))) (quote (lambda (x) (cons x (cons (cons (quote quote) (cons x (quote ()))) (quote ()))))))
21:46:50 <oklopol> ((lambda (x) (cons x (cons (cons (quote quote) (cons x (quote ()))) (quote ())))) (quote (lambda (x) (cons x (cons (cons (quote quote) (cons x (quote ()))) (quote ())))))) <<< this is output if i run from command line
21:47:23 <oklopol> and the bot just effectively calls that same function and outputs what comes out...
21:48:03 <bsmntbombdood_> >>> sch (((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (self) (lambda (a b) (if (= b 0) a ((self self) (+ a 1) (- b 1)))))) 4 5)
21:48:07 <oklopol> what's the max message lenght?
21:49:23 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood_: what does x do there? :P
21:49:24 <oerjan> liftM2 f l1 l2 = concatMap (\x -> map (\y -> f x y) l1) l2
21:50:19 <oklopol> Eidolos: i know, that doesn't answer my question
21:51:09 <oklopol> that quine isn't working because max length for ololobot is 137 characters?
21:52:01 <oklopol> if you don't answer soon, i swear i'm gonna *google* :|
21:55:07 <oerjan> message length may vary between irc servers i think, although there is some minimum
21:55:42 <oklopol> GregorR: is there something wrong in doing that?
21:56:11 <GregorR> NO, I JUST WUV THE SHIFT KEY
21:56:18 <oerjan> i am sure a finnish guy would appreciate a liquor tree
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21:56:59 <oerjan> and that the liquorice might only apply during harsh winters
21:57:05 <oklopol> >>> sch ((lambda (x) (cons x (cons (cons (quote quote) (cons x (quote ()))) (quote ())))) (quote (lambda (x) (cons x (cons (cons (quote quote) (cons x (quote ()))) (quote ())))
21:57:06 <ololobot> ((lambda (x) (cons x (cons (cons (quote quote) (cons x (quote ()))) (quote ())))) (quote (lambda (x) (cons x (cons (cons (quote quote) (cons x (quote ()))) (quote ()))))))
21:58:19 <oklopol> oerjan: i don't do much alcohol nowadays
21:58:31 <oklopol> (just updating your statistics)
21:58:52 <oklopol> (i'm sure that changed the finnish average use)
21:59:14 <oerjan> i was just attempting a stereotypic joke, but i guess the finnish don't understand those
21:59:36 <oerjan> (the swedes certainly don't)
22:00:38 <oklopol> oerjan: i did understand it, mine was a follow-up joke though.
22:00:51 <bsmntbombdood_> "a rabii, and preist, and a blonde walk into a bar..."
22:02:57 <GregorR> SO, A JEWISH GUY, A CATHOLIC, A MORMON AND A CHRISTIAN WALK INTO A BAR. THE CHRISTIAN SAYS "I'M AMERICAN YOU ALL HATE JESUS LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL"
22:03:50 <oklopol> i don't believe in religions
22:04:15 <oklopol> gonna eat the most edible thing in the kitchen, unless poisonous ->
22:04:30 <oerjan> watch out, potted plants"
22:04:50 <oerjan> although i guess those died long ago
22:05:28 <oklopol> i don't have a pot jungle yet, since my parents live here too.
22:06:07 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to xor.
22:07:13 <oklopol> i read a long list of drug slang terms, after that i only knew balling is inserting heroin vaginally.
22:08:07 <xor> i read an acount of a bunch of dykes trying a bunch of drugs vaginally
22:09:51 <oerjan> um, potted plant = plant living in a pot. i guess your parents living there increases the chances of them surviving.
22:10:21 <oklopol> yeah, they'd also bought me food.
22:22:57 <oklopol> oerjan: i also got that joke btw, i'll promise to laugh at your next joke so you don't have to explain it :)
22:23:05 <oklopol> i mean, got it when you said it
22:25:42 <oklopol> they say it has everything.
22:26:01 <xor> not built in
22:28:57 <oerjan> there have been made monad libraries for scheme, is my understanding
22:30:42 <oerjan> there is a theorem that says if you have continuations and mutable variables, then you can do everything monads can do in ordinary syntax
22:31:11 <oerjan> and scheme does have those
22:31:54 <oerjan> although you don't get the haskell type tricks that go with them, i guess
22:32:07 <xor> monads are ugly
22:34:11 <lament> oerjan: by "ordinary syntax" you mean, instead of bind you use actual semicolons?
22:35:36 <lament> xor: i agree they're ugly
22:35:53 <lament> the entire area is still being developed
22:36:12 <lament> the ugliness is probably temporary
22:36:51 <xor> the solution is mutable variables
22:37:41 <lament> is that what clean does?
22:37:55 <lament> you mean what C does? :)
22:38:22 <xor> what scheme does
22:38:25 <oerjan> clean has uniqueness types
22:39:08 <oerjan> it does mutation when the types prove the original value is no longer used
22:39:36 <oerjan> (because the value had a unique reference, which was discarded)
22:40:38 <lament> oerjan: have you played with it? is it more convenient?
22:41:03 <lament> xor: then it's not a solution to the problem monads try to solve.
22:41:25 <xor> it was in the monad paper i read
22:44:57 <lament> oerjan: i'm not at all convinced monads are the optimal... things get very hairy with transformers
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23:45:25 <xor> >>> sch "foo"
23:45:49 <oklopol> i actually thought i had strings
23:47:04 <oerjan> there are no strings attached
23:47:10 <oklopol> >>> sch (define "o" 3) "o"
23:47:31 <lament> >>> sch (define define define) define
23:47:47 <oerjan> i was going to tell you if you didn't :)
23:48:12 <oklopol> >>> (define define 5) define
23:49:21 <oklopol> why can't you redefine define...
23:50:01 <oklopol> hmm, macros are first class but the names aren't
23:50:46 <oklopol> you can't see the prefix now, but that's not a variable name with the primitive macro "define" in it, it's the actual macro
23:51:09 <oklopol> that's not good... guess i should do some massive refactoring
23:52:31 <oklopol> i made it restore primitives eash run, because i like to ruin ppl's fun
23:56:03 <oklopol> >>> ((lambda (a) (eval (a b 6))) define) b
23:56:29 <oklopol> >>> ((lambda (a) (eval `(a b 6))) define) b
23:58:05 <oklopol> darn, more stuff i gotta add to that
23:58:18 <oklopol> scheme has a lot more stuff than i imagined...
23:58:45 <oerjan> that minimalism thing is just a scam...
23:59:09 <oklopol> hmm... how do you use "define" inside a function?
23:59:29 <oklopol> do you have to use let... i don't remember
23:59:36 <oklopol> i don't have let either :<<<
00:00:50 <oklopol> ((lambda (a) (eval `(a b 6)) b) define) b
00:01:13 <oklopol> smth like that, but i need lambda to take multiple... statements (?)
00:02:27 <oerjan> define can only be used at the beginning of a "block"
00:04:04 <oerjan> expressions, i guess, and the expressions of a lambda is one example of a block
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00:07:03 <oerjan> lessee, b is the length of the _arc_ so something trigonometric is necessary
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02:29:09 <oerjan> I love to sing-a About the moon-a and the June-a and the spring-a ...
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08:17:21 <pbxs2002> someone please tell me if i should call this girl at 2:15AM .. thanks
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11:40:46 <ololobot> Please tell oklopol how the standard combinator should behave.
11:40:55 <oklopol> i actually think i know what that should do...
11:43:21 <oklopol> plus it's not possible with the current infrastructure
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14:27:23 <navaburo> is there a straight forward way to find an elegant program to produce a certain output?
14:28:12 <navaburo> say in brainfuck, i want to output some string of eight bytes using the fewest possible instructions....
14:28:36 <oklopol> you can't find the shortest program in the general case
14:28:55 <oklopol> !bf_gen you can use this for starters
14:29:02 <oklopol> !bf_text_gen you can use this for starters
14:29:06 <oklopol> !bf_txt_gen you can use this for starters
14:29:16 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
14:29:18 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
14:29:22 <oklopol> !bf_txtgen you can use this for starters
14:29:54 <navaburo> but if i restrict the program to output only (no , instruction), perhaps i can?
14:30:38 <EgoBot> 161 +++++++++++[>+++>+++++++++++>+++++++++>++++++++++<<<<-]>>.>>+.<<----.<-.>>.--.>-.<<<.>.--.>++++.<<.>+.>+++.+.<-.<.>>---.>+.+++.<<<.>.+.>-----.<--.>>++.<++++.<.+. [244]
14:30:57 <navaburo> and if i prefilter for indefinate loops?
14:31:20 <navaburo> well... dont run any program containing []
14:31:52 <navaburo> oklopol: sure, that one would get past a naive prefilter
14:31:57 <oklopol> well, you can't spot infinite loops
14:32:09 <navaburo> i ment loops giving repeating identical conditions
14:32:22 <oklopol> those aren't the only infinite loops
14:33:06 <oklopol> you can do stuff like finding the shortest program that produces a string in *reasonable* time
14:34:34 <oklopol> but because you prolly don't actually need the absolutely shortest program, just find a way to produce strings with *pretty* short code for most strings, and then make a program that converts string -> code for that string
14:34:40 <oklopol> exactly like bf_txtgen does
14:34:55 <oklopol> but you don't have to use 4 cells
14:35:18 <navaburo> i would sleep better at night knowing it was the provably shortest program
14:35:47 <oklopol> do you need a spesific string or the general case?
14:36:35 <navaburo> mmm a specific string i suppose
14:37:26 <oklopol> i can't get wikipedia open today, dunno why, but there's the shortest programs for numbers 0...255 there
14:38:38 <oklopol> dunno if those are proven to be the shortest ones, but they most likely are
14:40:33 <navaburo> mm i am having trouble fnding it
14:42:28 <navaburo> well thanks anywho, i hope you get them fixed
14:46:55 <navaburo> (my firefox has been crazy unstable lately... idk if it is an update problem)
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15:27:19 <Figs> http://cpp.sourceforge.net/?show=39846
15:27:31 <Figs> I have produced real obfuscated C :)
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15:48:36 <Figs> I like self-documenting code...
15:50:22 <oklopol> hmm... i'm pretty sure i was gonna say pretty that exact same line
15:51:20 <oklopol> at least i was thinking it
15:51:34 <oklopol> guess that's a pretty common obfuscation joke
15:51:42 <oklopol> guess that's the only obfuscation joke.
15:53:39 <Figs> I wonder if I can figure out how to get my brainfuck interpreter to be smaller than that...
16:01:17 <Figs> it's a hello world program
16:01:26 <Figs> my next one will be the bf interpreter
16:01:42 <Figs> (already wrote an interpreter... just need to think of a crap load of evil ways to obfuscate it)
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16:10:39 <oerjan> oklopol: you were thinking of [[Brainfuck constants]] on esolangs
16:11:01 <Figs> can any of you compile my code? :S
16:12:22 <oerjan> the wrapping ones are probably the shortest possible.
16:13:40 <oerjan> 255+ -> 0 and vice versa
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16:16:06 <oerjan> the wrapping allows you to do tricks based on division (mod 256)
16:16:35 <Figs> on my computer wrapping -> negative
16:16:59 <Figs> I did a few things with that...
16:16:59 <oklopol> oerjan: you think non wrapping stuff is harder to make as short as possible?
16:17:06 <Figs> maybe that's why some people are having problems
16:17:26 <oerjan> well they are longer so it's more to search for
16:17:32 <oklopol> Figs: depends on whether you're using signed or not
16:17:41 <oklopol> ah, i didn't think of that
16:18:23 <Figs> I think I only wrapped
16:18:29 <Figs> but I don't really remember
16:18:41 <Figs> no, I think I subtracted once
16:18:48 <Figs> that's probably what killed it
16:18:55 <oklopol> eh... i have no idea what you mean
16:19:12 <Figs> oklopol, char c = 0; c--;
16:19:21 <oklopol> char can be either signed or not
16:19:30 <oklopol> it's implementation defined
16:20:19 <oerjan> in any case wrapping -128..127 or 0..255 don't make a difference for brainfuck
16:20:43 <oerjan> it's just a 256-element cycle in any case
16:20:47 <Figs> does in my program though :P
16:21:45 <oerjan> egobfi has several bitsize options, so it can map on 2^16 or 2^32, also 2^8 is not the default
16:21:56 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
16:21:59 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
16:22:21 <oerjan> but no unbounded version
16:23:12 * Figs wonders if he can find a good use for longjmp(foo,rand%n+1)...
16:23:32 <Figs> rand() if you actually expect it to think about compiling itself.
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17:40:35 <oerjan> ook is perfectly on topic :)
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18:18:10 <oklopol> why can't you do ` over y... :|
18:18:31 <oklopol> you can have and ` on aeiou, but y only does
18:20:01 <lament> Because our system for encoding letters is very primitive and doesn't allow arbitrary accents on arbitrary letters.
18:20:07 <oerjan> presumably because it isn't used in a western european language
18:20:55 <oklopol> yeah, but it kinda sucks if it's the *only* one that doesn't exist, thus breaking a nice set just to save one character :<
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18:22:15 <oklopol> is there a list of different phonemes with sound samples somewhere?
18:22:30 <lament> nasal vowels in Portuguese
18:22:53 <lament> the little squiggle on top used to be an "n"
18:23:58 <oklopol> hmm... a diphtong is quite hard to make :D
18:25:40 <oklopol> does unicode have all vocals "`"'d?
18:26:05 <lament> ãa seems pretty easy...
18:27:06 <oklopol> it becomes an "" when i do it...
18:28:04 <lament> maybe you're not doing it right? The only change between the two is in nasality
18:28:27 <oklopol> hmm, it actually became pretty easy now that i actually added some thought
18:28:29 <oerjan> oklopol: unicode has combining accents
18:29:16 <oklopol> in "a" you basically say "a", but you make a nasal dip, my nose makes a funny move when i do it
18:29:20 <oklopol> but indeed, it's pretty easy
18:30:30 * oerjan detects a subtle sarcasm
18:31:05 <oerjan> you can write the accents as separate characters, to be combined with letters
18:31:40 <oklopol> i can easily pronounce that
18:31:55 <oklopol> i don't even know how you'd write that on paper though...
18:31:57 <oerjan> some south-east asian languages have so many accents on their vowels you cannot possibly include all possibilities
18:32:21 <oerjan> you can have more than one on a letter, certainly
18:32:29 <lament> serializing writing is a lost cause anyway
18:32:34 <oerjan> i recall there is some kind of predefined stacking order
18:32:52 <lament> any encoding method will be either extremely inefficient or extremely complicated
18:33:03 <lament> currently we're using extremely inefficient ones
18:33:29 <lament> which, apart from being exremely inefficient, don't allow to encode anything you might want to encode
18:35:34 <oklopol> is there a list of different phonemes with sound samples somewhere? <<< i'll assume "no" from all your enthusiasm?
18:36:04 <lament> probably... i'd start with the IPA wikipedia article
18:40:06 <navaburo> oklopol: perhaps use phoneme speaking software, and feed it each phoneme individually
18:40:22 <navaburo> text to speach packages frequently allow either natural language or phonetic input
18:41:25 <oklopol> natural language = english pronunciation?
18:41:39 <navaburo> natural language being normal text
18:41:59 <oklopol> in finnish there's no real difference
18:42:24 <oklopol> i think i have a text->speech thing
18:42:36 <oklopol> don't remember the name, but it's a finite hard-drive...
18:46:01 <navaburo> there is a built in text to speech utility in XP
18:46:22 <navaburo> i dont think it will take phonetic inputs with the control panel interface
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18:50:05 <navaburo> well i am SURE festival can do what you want
18:50:13 <navaburo> from what i see you can compile it on windows
18:51:12 <navaburo> http://www.cstr.ed.ac.uk/projects/festival/
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18:51:46 <navaburo> it works well, kinda a pain in the ass to get set up iirc, but it is super flexible
18:52:59 <oklopol> i'll try it when i'm less tired
18:53:43 <navaburo> yea, i tried building it from source but gave up and got the unix binary :)
18:55:29 <xor> someone should come up with a regex-like notation for context-free grammars
18:56:07 <xor> because BNF is too verbose
18:56:21 <oerjan> er, you haven't heard of EBNF?
18:57:06 <oerjan> it essentially means using regex things inside BNF to shorten it
18:57:14 <xor> that's still not regex-like
18:57:35 <xor> better than straight up bnf, but not good enough
18:57:36 <oklopol> xor: i have the nestor syntax for that exact purpose
18:57:58 <oklopol> though nestor also has macros for making more general bnf's
18:58:08 <lament> not good enough for what?
18:58:15 <lament> what exactly do you want this for?
18:58:40 <oerjan> lament: he obviously wants BNF to look like line noise
18:59:12 <xor> i want something that doesn't involve production rules
18:59:34 <oerjan> well you need recursion somehow
18:59:38 <xor> or multiple statements
19:00:35 <xor> multiple named statements, then
19:01:36 <oerjan> try running haskell's Parsec through lambdabot's @pl
19:01:37 <lament> hm, you could just express BNF in haskell and then @pl
19:02:03 <xor> that doesn't change anything
19:02:08 <lament> parsec stuff sits in a monad, that must be a huge pain to @pl
19:02:30 <lament> xor: what do you mean, doesn't change anything?
19:02:44 <xor> it's still just bnf
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19:03:38 <lament> oerjan: i don't think @pl would work, though...
19:03:58 <lament> xor: yeah, but this procedure would get rid of named statements (if it does work)
19:04:12 <xor> and that doesn't mean anything
19:04:22 <xor> well, it means i don't know how to describe what i want
19:04:51 <xor> that would be more verbose than bnf
19:05:05 <lament> you said nothing about being less verbose
19:05:12 <xor> yeah i did
19:05:31 <xor> < lament> why?
19:05:34 <xor> < xor> because BNF is too verbose
19:05:52 <lament> yeah, but your specific requests were to get rid of production rules and named statements
19:06:13 <lament> the reason such a thing doesn't exist is primarily because it would be horrendously ugly and useless
19:06:23 <xor> making it anonymous doesn't get rid of production rules
19:06:26 <lament> but since we're in #esoteric, feel free to invent one
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21:06:19 <ihope> What an important shock that was.
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23:27:54 * Sgeo wonders if he can make 0x00 0x00 0x00 be "print NUL" instead of 0x00 0x00
23:28:14 * Sgeo is thinking of removing the whole domain switching thing
23:28:32 <Figs> I'm going to disappear for a while
23:28:37 <ihope_> Isn't domain switching the main feature or something?
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23:30:44 <Sgeo> Instead of doing, to call function 0x02 in domain 0x01: [0x00 0x01 0x01] 0x00 0x02, you just do 0x00 0x01 0x02
23:31:38 * SimonRC fails to recal the doument name
23:35:32 <Sgeo> The question is, can I make "Print NUL" be function 0x00 in domain 0, or should I shift the PSOX-System domain to 1, and make a special psuedodomain for 0x00 0x00?
23:36:52 <SimonRC> most of the top level is the often-used stuff, butsome of the top-level is reserved for expanding inot lower levels
23:37:23 <ihope_> Reserve low bytes for commands, high bytes for other stuff?
23:38:51 <ihope_> 7F and below is a plain old function. 80 and above is a domain thing.
23:39:38 <ihope_> So you can introduce as many plain old functions as you like without intruding on domains, I guess.
23:39:49 <ihope_> (For some values of "as many as you like".)
23:39:54 <SimonRC> well, you could then have 1-byte codes for things like "print NULL", while keeping everything else ordered
23:40:27 <Sgeo> All of the special stuff will be in PSOX-System domain
23:40:35 <SimonRC> in fact, reserve a 0x80-0xff byte in any position for subtrees
23:41:58 <Sgeo> "256 functions will be enough for any domain designer" --said ala Bill Gates
23:44:00 <ihope_> You changed it from 256 to 255 and back. I like 257 better.
23:44:50 <ihope_> You could either use two bytes for two commands or use a much more clever arithmetic-coding-like scheme.
23:50:08 <Sgeo> My question simply is, would it be better to have 0x00 0x00 be a special case and have to shift everything around, or use 0x00 0x00 0x00 as "print NUL"
23:52:12 <ihope_> Shifting around doesn't sound hard.
23:54:40 <Sgeo> Shifting things around and leaving a pseudodomain feels inelegent to me :/
23:56:05 <SimonRC> Sgeo: that's why I suggested my idea
23:57:26 <Sgeo> erm, I had some trouble understanding it..
23:57:32 <Sgeo> Could you please explain it? Sorry..
23:58:03 <SimonRC> first, one sends a 0, as already
23:58:37 <SimonRC> next, a byte 0-127 is a command, and a byte 128-255 is a domain specifier.
23:59:02 <SimonRC> within each domain, 0-127 will be commands, an 128-255 are subdomain specifiers
23:59:52 <SimonRC> this allows the common stuff to be short (e.g. printing NUL is still "0,0"), but there is plenty of room, and it is *organised*
00:00:07 <Sgeo> Seems like 128-255 would be difficult for some languages to reach..
00:00:20 <SimonRC> well they won't need to do it often
00:00:28 <SimonRC> make things odd andeven if you want instead
00:00:33 <ihope_> Then you need better compilers for those languages :-P
00:01:13 <SimonRC> odd and even is a trivial bit-rearrangement in my idea
00:03:20 <Sgeo> but..but..but..
00:04:39 * Sgeo doesn't particularly like the idea of top-level commands
00:04:42 <SimonRC> almost everything you would want is within reach of 30 characters of BF.
00:05:14 <Sgeo> But under my system, the meta stuff is all in domain 0
00:05:38 <Sgeo> Incidentally, where would custom domains go?
00:06:21 <SimonRC> you reserve some of your domains for custom domains
00:06:34 <SimonRC> I mean, they go *under* them
00:06:56 <SimonRC> since my scheme is recursive
00:09:35 <Sgeo> hmm... maybe instead of a numbering for subdomains, the domain designer can designate what would have been a function as a tree
00:10:09 <Sgeo> So that the specs for, e.g. domain 2 would state that 0x02 under domain2 leads to more functions..
00:10:15 <xor> ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (self) (lambda (f) (f (lambda args (apply ((self self) f) args))))))
00:10:52 <SimonRC> that is a bit messy to decode...
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00:33:51 <Sgeo> Would having 0x00 0x00 0x00 be print NUL really be that bad?
00:34:18 <SimonRC> if you didn;t doubt you would not haveasked
00:37:31 <oerjan> if you hadn't asked you would not have doubted
00:37:41 <oerjan> and causality be damned
00:43:33 <Sgeo> Opinions: Is it ok to have Print NUL be 0x00 0x00 0x00?
00:44:10 <ihope_> Sure, as long as you don't intend on doing it a lot.
00:45:11 <SimonRC> you make 0x00 be the domain containing character printing functions...
00:45:34 <SimonRC> if you want to print out character foo safely, the 0,0,foo is guaranteed to work
00:45:57 <SimonRC> to avoid breaking cat and the likes
00:46:13 * Sgeo was going to write some BF code to always safely print a character
00:46:23 <SimonRC> to allow you to make and unbreakable cat and the likes
00:46:40 <pikhq> I like Simon's idea, though.
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01:00:08 <Sgeo> hm, 0,0,0 as print NUL, 0,0,0,N as safe-print N?
01:00:17 <Sgeo> hm, 0,0,0 as print NUL, 0,0,1,N as safe-print N?
01:00:26 <ehird`> are you STILL working on that thing
01:01:18 <Sgeo> Or maybe the safe-print will be in another domain
01:01:30 <Sgeo> I was planning a domain for things like printing as decimal..
01:02:10 * Sgeo pokes SimonRC and pikhq
01:02:46 <pikhq> Domain 0 for various output functions.
01:03:10 -!- ehird` has quit.
01:03:51 <Sgeo> How about domain 2 for output functions
01:03:56 <Sgeo> domain0 should be system
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01:26:18 <Sgeo> Goodnight Tritonio
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02:37:49 <Sgeo> Good, working on PSOX
02:38:01 <RifR> Working on my forums
02:42:09 <RifR> Reading the "Joke Language" list
02:42:11 <RifR> which is awesome
02:45:23 <ihope_> Hmm, we need more people whose names consist of at least one capital letter, then at least one small letter, then at least one capital letter.
02:45:45 <ihope_> Which I really ought to say as "more people whose names match /[A-Z]+[a-z]+[A-Z]+/".
02:46:05 <ihope_> I see GregorR, RifR, SimonRC.
02:46:45 <RifR> My handle is usually RifRaf, and I happened to notice someone else here goes by the same handle... which I have never seen since the early 90s when some warez courier was using it
02:47:24 <ihope_> Occasionally I'll find a website where "ihope" is taken.
02:47:29 <ihope_> They're all big ones, though.
02:50:52 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to UtF03nmaDnWhnPm9.
02:52:20 <ihope_> It's clearly just an obfuscation of "you wanna dun wit me".
02:52:30 <ihope_> What that means is beyond me.
02:55:10 -!- UtF03nmaDnWhnPm9 has changed nick to KhuUAwA7726av40w.
02:55:48 <RifR> You should just use Fish ;)
02:57:13 -!- KhuUAwA7726av40w has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
02:58:25 <RifR> It's a IRC encryption tool
02:58:52 <ihope_> He should just encode stuff in the lengths of his sentences.
02:59:04 <ihope_> Even number of letters = 0, odd number = 1.
03:00:49 <ihope_> Oh, you want to be obvious.
03:01:03 <RifR> Who are these "field agents?"
03:01:04 <ihope_> Well, WHY don't you just use PLAINTEXT?
03:04:53 <bsmntbombdood> you might want to pay attention to my next few messages
03:06:06 * pikhq has yet to find someone with the nickname of pikhq. . .
03:06:14 <ihope_> I'll point you at this video, then: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTVraVgzC9U
03:06:28 <ihope_> That's for being lazy, you big lazy-head!
03:06:28 <pikhq> Also, I propose that we use rot26
03:06:49 <ihope_> I propose that we call that cipher by its canonical name, rot0.
03:07:37 <ihope_> Listen to smalin's version. It's pretty good.
03:08:01 <bsmntbombdood> and why are the keys on that organ moving by themselves?
03:08:09 <ihope_> They're supposed to, I guess.
03:09:15 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: No, no, no. . .
03:09:23 <pikhq> GregorR? What a nerd.
03:11:02 <ihope_> Pff, a video that's not Toccata and Fugue in D minor.
03:14:05 <pikhq> Pft, the revolution will kill the TV.
03:14:24 <bsmntbombdood> i have to write a letter to a pencil company telling them how great their pencils are
03:14:26 <pikhq> We, the GNU People, are the revolution.
03:14:33 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: WTF?!?
03:14:47 <ihope_> Odd thing to have to do.
03:15:03 <ihope_> Odd thing to have to do for English class.
03:15:11 * Sgeo goes to write the spec for the new version of PSOX
03:15:15 <pikhq> I hate your Englilsh teacher already.
03:15:21 <ihope_> What's that have to do with symbolism and messages?
03:16:10 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: how would it be if you buried heavy doses of sarcasm about how anachronistic pencils are?
03:16:30 <pikhq> I've got a better idea.
03:16:36 <ihope_> Extremely subtle doses of sarcasm.
03:17:11 <pikhq> Write to them asking how they feel about destroying forests in the name of anachronism and nostalgia.
03:17:34 <ihope_> What's wrong with destroying forests?
03:18:23 * pikhq takes a picture of his hippy self
03:19:10 <pikhq> I was kinda kidding; don't exactly have a digital camera handy.
03:22:19 <pikhq> You need a beard & long hair.
03:25:22 * Sgeo pokes the new http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt
03:26:21 * Sgeo pokes pikhq and SimonRC
03:26:29 <ihope_> Sgeo: what do you do if you want to output lots of NUL?
03:26:47 <Sgeo> Do lots of 0x00 0x00 0x00..
03:27:02 <ihope_> That's a third as efficient as it could be.
03:27:48 <pikhq> The idea is "sane API", not "world's most efficient one".
03:27:59 <pikhq> NUL as an escape, to me, is sane.
03:28:51 <ihope_> Allowing the escape to be set isn't that hard, is it>
03:30:24 <Sgeo> ..I guess not..
03:30:45 <Sgeo> other than needing to change the documentation a bit, ofc
03:30:59 <Sgeo> But is there real demand for it?
03:37:07 <ihope_> "It is quite possible that I had only thought I felt warmer. I suggest that a better test would be to shave half a person's beard off, but not tell them which half." http://mudhead.uottawa.ca/~pete/beard.html
03:37:12 <ihope_> Indeed, I'm sure that'll work wonders.
03:37:50 <oerjan> darn you beat me to it
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03:40:47 <oerjan> i am not sure i believe that 6 weeks after picture...
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03:55:40 <pikhq> main()<% printf((char<::>)<%'C',' ','i','s',' ','i','n','s','a','n','e','??/n',0%>);%>
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03:57:45 <pikhq> Combined with using an array literal format for a C string.
04:06:54 * Sgeo works on the specs for Domain 0x02
04:08:55 * Sgeo suddenly realizes that his longnum format has no negative number support
04:10:25 * Sgeo adds in a quick&cheap way to support negative numbers
04:10:35 <Sgeo> "The indicator 0x02 can only be used as the first indicator, and means that a data byte follows, and the number is negative."
04:16:36 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txthttp://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt updated
04:16:38 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt
04:18:14 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt updated! http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-io-utils.txt added!
04:21:13 <GregorR> plz for puts newlines cuz bad interps kthx
04:28:43 <GregorR> Well, that was helpful, but not what I meant at all :
04:29:58 <Sgeo> Couldn't you just use 10 to print a newline?
04:30:18 <GregorR> I mean, all requests and responses should end with an ignored newline.
04:30:42 <GregorR> Since most interpreters based on C will find they have buffered stdin/stdout.
04:30:52 * pikhq gets t3h uberbored, looks through #esoteric logs
04:31:15 * GregorR takes pikhq's uberbored and turns it into ... AN UBERBOARD
04:32:19 <Sgeo> buffered stdout
04:33:10 <GregorR> Sgeo: int main() { int i; printf("Oh noes!"); for (i = 0; i <= 100000000; i++) {} printf("\n"); return 0; }
04:33:21 <GregorR> Sgeo: It won't print that "Oh noes!" until after the wait.
04:33:28 <GregorR> Sgeo: Because it's buffered on newlines.
04:35:34 * Sgeo doesn't know how to fix that
04:35:50 <GregorR> Simple: Require ignored newlines on all your commands.
04:36:23 * pikhq searches for his first entrance to #esoteric
04:36:27 <GregorR> It's easy to fix it in the interpreter, but probably more interpreters for esoteric languages are broken than not.
04:37:56 <pikhq> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.07.18 Gots it. (well, fine. First words, not first entrance.)
04:38:42 <Sgeo> Are there interpreters that require Windows newlines?
04:38:55 * lament wonders what is the first thing in the logs
04:39:51 <GregorR> Sgeo: IIRC, every C on Windows I've heard of will flush on \n anyway.
04:40:13 <GregorR> Sgeo: Especially since most treat that as a UNIX newline in output anyway :)
04:40:49 <lament> oh wow, the channel was... pretty quiet back then :)
04:41:21 <pikhq> Still is on some days.
04:41:54 <lament> 16:57:05 --- log: started esoteric/03.01.17
04:41:54 <lament> 16:57:05 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #esoteric
04:41:54 <lament> 16:57:05 --- topic: 'Om this channel is not dead hum! Om this channel is not dead hum! Om this channel is not dead hum!'
04:46:18 <lament> SamB and exarkun used to come here...
04:47:50 <lament> except he was on #python backt hen
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05:49:05 <pikhq> Allow me to introduce. . . PEBBLE. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.09.03 :p
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12:56:52 <Figs> brainfuck interpreters are a lot simpler than I was making them
12:57:25 <Figs> I feel like an idiot
12:57:56 <Figs> still, at 44 lines, I've made it a bit bloated
12:58:01 <Figs> I can do better
13:08:02 <Figs> what's the fastest way to left-shift by 9999 in brainfuck?
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13:09:57 <Figs> any idea how to leftshift by 9999 in brainfuck?
13:10:06 <Figs> (like < * 9999)
13:10:19 <Figs> without actually typing that o.o
13:20:57 <SimonRC> If you have "walking" facilities available (and you should) you can use those.
13:21:45 <Figs> it's very plain brainfuck
13:21:49 <Figs> since I wrote it myself
13:22:01 <SimonRC> You put gaps in-between your data, then use these to keep track of where you are on the tape
13:22:09 <Figs> I just wanted to exploit something peculiar to my implimentation so I could write a quine :P
13:23:43 <Figs> basically the input to the program is 9999 bytes away from the actual memory :P
13:23:54 <Figs> so I could (in theory) have self-rewriting brainfuck
13:24:35 <Figs> it'd be easier I guess if I'd put it the other way around
13:25:30 <Figs> not sure about that though
13:26:23 <Figs> char input[9999*(2+sizeof(char*))],*index_=input,*bfptr=index_+9999,
13:26:23 <Figs> **stack=(char**)(input+2*9999); <- is this portable?
13:26:47 <Figs> I'd think it should be
13:29:05 <pikhq> char input[9999*(2+sizeof(char*))],*bfptr=index+9999,**stack=&(input+2*9999);
13:29:42 <Figs> I'm reinterpreting the memory
13:29:54 <pikhq> char input[9999*(2+sizeof(char*))],*bfptr=&index[9999],**stack=&&input[2*9999];
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15:18:45 <Figs> I just wrote a brainfuck program that modified itself :P
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15:19:21 <Figs> not portable, ohhh so not portable :D
15:19:43 <Figs> I just wrote a bf program that modifies itself because of the way my buffers line up :P
15:20:07 <Figs> it's not very pretty though :'(
15:22:18 <Figs> I should go to bed
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18:40:47 <bsmntbombdood> if my fingers are on the wrong keys and i don't know it, i type wrong
18:41:04 <bsmntbombdood> but if i purposely put my fingers on the wrong keys, they correct themselves
18:42:49 <oklopol> they move on the right keys after a few presses even if i'm not looking at the screen
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18:55:13 <bsmntbombdood> our education maps need to help US americans with south africa and the iraq?!?!?!!
19:02:29 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: oh my god i puked up retardsauce
19:02:37 <ehird`> i think that video is why
19:02:49 <ehird`> all the idiocy in the world building up... and then it just had to come out.
19:03:26 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: she's not really like that, but that would be a fun gf
19:03:41 <oklopol> i could play with an idiot all day long
19:04:08 <oklopol> i would laugh a lot though, so i'm pretty sure she couldn't stand me.
19:12:45 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.mindfully.org/Farm/2003/Everything-Is-Illegal1esp03.htm
19:13:19 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDcHdIvKQBU&NR=1 <<< i was thinking "comma" :)
19:14:11 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure i've developed some sort of dyslexia
19:14:44 <oklopol> how late can you get that?
19:14:56 <oklopol> and can you catch it from a friend?
19:16:41 <oklopol> that's wouldn't exactly be "dyslexia", "stupedia"?
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19:28:53 <bsmntbombdood> a colon isn't commonly used to introduce a list of items
19:33:46 <oklopol> i don't think that either, but more often than a comma :)
19:35:24 <bsmntbombdood> "star wars is based on a true story. true or false" "true."
19:37:09 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuNgBkloFE&mode=related&search=
19:42:24 <oklopol> i might make a finnish one someday
19:42:31 <oklopol> pretty stupid ppl here too
19:43:16 <oklopol> i might actually believe a vid like that was true if i had made it myself
19:44:49 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: ..."true"?!
19:44:57 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: is it a faked video or something i haven't watched it
19:45:37 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AbXR4fbhOQ&NR=1 <<< i wouldn't have known what a "surge protector" is
19:45:52 <oklopol> i would've gotten that right of course, still :P
19:46:00 <oklopol> unexpected surges of water
19:47:47 <oklopol> so great watching ppl be stupid, i don't understand how everyone finds it so disgusting
19:48:16 <ehird`> "what is... the united kingdom"
19:50:37 <bsmntbombdood> a surge protector protects from surges, that's all you can say without more information
19:51:14 <oklopol> well, natural language is often like that, but do many people buy anything but ones for electric surges?
19:51:29 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_mkwB9ayK4 <<< i don't know what currency ireland uses :\
19:51:40 <oklopol> i could make a vid like that from myself
19:57:55 <oklopol> guess that was enough for one day
20:00:36 <ehird`> an irc room/where messages are haiku/yes, interesting
20:02:14 <oklopol> i cannot say anything on that channel.
20:03:37 <ehird`> syllables, okay/in haiku, five and then/seven, indeed
20:04:35 <oklopol> haiku sounds so finnish it stands out from your texts as a big wtf
20:05:09 <oklopol> because i have a hard time interpreting a sentence with multiple languages in it
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21:11:34 <GregorR> oklopol: What's read(SELECT * FROM statements WHERE languages > 1).difficulty?
21:15:44 <bsmntbombdood> embedding a language, as a string, into another language? wtf?
21:16:41 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: lightweight sql-eliminators ftw
21:17:33 <ehird`> aka database abstraction layers
21:18:27 <oklopol> GregorR: that's a personal weirdity of mine
21:18:41 <ehird`> select("statements", where=[x|x.languages > 1])
21:19:22 <ehird`> select("statements", where=cond("languages > 1"))
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21:24:55 <SimonRC> How nice of Google to put all their tech talks online.
21:25:40 <SimonRC> heh: "three-napkins protocol"
21:26:22 <SimonRC> they said to try re-applying in 6monthd
21:26:48 <SimonRC> I have other good-looking offers though
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21:30:01 <lament> at first i thought you're about to interview a bunch of hot candidates
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21:43:33 <SimonRC> pikhq and oerjan joined at the same second
21:43:55 <oklopol> but i'm pretty sure it was planned
21:44:05 <oklopol> oerjan and pikhq: you're not fooling anyone
21:44:07 * SimonRC forgets which people are close IRL
21:44:29 <oerjan> i don't think pikhq is on the same continent as me
21:45:11 <oklopol> pikhq is american, oerjan is norwegian
21:45:16 <oklopol> SimonRC is... american too (?)
21:45:40 <SimonRC> "209-248-125-179.falconbroadband.net"
21:46:08 <SimonRC> pikhq = "209-248-125-179.falconbroadband.net"
21:46:23 <oerjan> lament: too late to fool me with that
21:46:36 <oerjan> unless you have fooled me a lot before
21:46:44 <oklopol> falconbroadband.net <<< doesn't really tell me the country :\
21:46:52 <lament> i'm mexican starting tomorrow
21:47:06 <oerjan> oklopol: you might get a hint by visiting their website, perhaps
21:47:27 <lament> ni siquiera hablo ingles
21:47:53 <oklopol> yes... i could also read the whole esoteric logs or trick cia into hacking his home country for me
21:48:09 <oklopol> i mean, who has the time to open a browser these days
21:48:20 <SimonRC> "Falcon Broadband, Inc. was started in 2003 in Colorado Springs, CO. We are a locally owned and operated company."
21:48:51 <oerjan> oklopol: i think there may be a list of which ip's are in which country
21:49:12 <SimonRC> there are a few websites that do that
21:49:23 <SimonRC> also, the ietf provide lists on their website
21:49:54 <SimonRC> they list the middlemen they give address ranges to, and include a web address where you can ask the middle-men for the details
21:50:01 <oklopol> so i was right about everyone except pikhq?
21:50:16 <oklopol> so i was right about everyone except SimonRC?
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21:50:28 <SimonRC> "<oklopol> SimonRC is... american too (?)" <--- yup, ish
21:50:35 <SimonRC> I mean, yup, you got it wrong
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21:50:59 <SimonRC> oklopol: what part of ".co.uk" did you not understand
21:51:11 <SimonRC> "21:49:14 -!- ehird` [n=ehird@user-514f618c.l4.c3.dsl.pol.co.uk] has joined #esoteric"
21:51:55 <oklopol> i understand it, i don't read it though
21:53:43 <oerjan> he only understands it when spoken aloud!
21:53:56 <oklopol> i haven't had a client that shows host @ join/quit, so haven't learned to look at that yet...
21:54:08 <oklopol> whoissing is like googling, who has the time?
21:55:11 <lament> which client do you use?
21:55:42 <oerjan> lament is too lazy to do /ctcp oklopol VERSION
21:56:06 <lament> of course, i'm mexican
21:56:13 <oklopol> lament: best client i've seen yet, you can point me towards a better one, if you know any
21:56:33 <oklopol> i wanna be a mexican too :\
21:56:45 <oklopol> i could be mexican tomorrow?
21:57:47 <oklopol> umm... okloXoY, please fill in those two to be mexican
21:58:29 <oklopol> i thought oklomex first, but i just can't be non-oCCoCoC
21:58:54 <oerjan> mexican words sometimes contain tl
21:59:44 <oklopol> hmm... i was thinking more like a 3-letter word CoC that is something stereotypically mexican :)
22:00:02 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure there's a lot of options...
22:00:21 * oerjan really feels unqualified for that question
22:01:42 -!- oklopol has changed nick to okloMeX.
22:02:03 <okloMeX> i don't know why that X is capitalized, but i kinda like it
22:02:22 -!- okloMeX has changed nick to okloMex.
22:02:44 <okloMex> i think this is the extent of my mexicanness for today
22:03:23 <okloMex> lament: better clients have you to mention?
22:03:55 <lament> personally i use irssi
22:04:03 <lament> but it probably doesn't play with windows very well
22:04:19 <okloMex> it does, and i also use unix
22:04:27 <okloMex> but i don't like it at all
22:04:47 <okloMex> prolly because i'm too lazy to learn all the commands
22:05:06 <oerjan> you want something point and click?
22:05:10 <okloMex> does it have a view where i don't have to remember which channels are behind which numbers?
22:05:17 <okloMex> no, but i want something look and see.
22:05:35 <okloMex> SimonRC: also has "e", i need "o" for it to be better than this...
22:05:39 -!- okloMex has changed nick to okloTeX.
22:05:49 <okloTeX> guess variation is nice though
22:05:55 <lament> okloTeX: get the chanact.pl script
22:06:16 <oerjan> i use irssi, but it could have done with a modern help system
22:06:18 <SimonRC> Oklo as in the nuclear reactors?
22:06:22 <okloTeX> i don't see why people put mirc down though, there's nothing wrong with it imo
22:07:40 <oerjan> after oklopol mentioned it, i believe he chose the name because of the keyboard layout
22:07:43 <okloTeX> Oklopol is a conworld of me and a few friend's.... that was pretty long, ay?
22:07:56 <okloTeX> i didn't, that was an accident actually
22:08:13 <okloTeX> i hate stuff where my hands aren't balanced
22:08:32 <okloTeX> so something liek lskdjf would'we been nicer actually
22:10:34 <SimonRC> or maybe conworlds.info (plug plug)
22:10:42 <okloTeX> actually the story of the actual word "oklopol" is a lot longer, but it's not very interesting
22:10:55 <okloTeX> umm... i'm not really anywhere :<
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22:11:16 <okloTeX> somewhat, in finnish form.
22:12:04 <okloTeX> the actual world in detail doesn't exist in written form really
22:12:14 <okloTeX> just some stories about it
22:12:33 <SimonRC> wherefrom got you the term "conworld"?
22:13:14 <okloTeX> when you first mentioned these... things
22:13:21 <okloTeX> the ones you're obsessed with
22:13:53 <okloTeX> the superclever dragon-like creatures whose name i think starts with a K
22:14:17 * oerjan is just showing off his memory abilities
22:15:01 <okloTeX> i have a pretty amazing memory when it comes to stuff i actually memorize, i just don't do that automatically for pretty much anything
22:15:34 <okloTeX> "amazing", most people are amazed by 10 digits of pi :P
22:16:06 * oerjan knows 15, though he memorized them
22:16:35 <okloTeX> rounding seems wrong when talking about memorizing digits...
22:17:08 <okloTeX> i didn't even remember the *first* digits of e before i actually memorized 2.71
22:17:11 <SimonRC> 18,446,744,073,709,551,616
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22:17:32 <okloTeX> i had no idea it started with "2" even though i'd used it about 163 times
22:17:57 <okloTeX> 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 <<< ?
22:18:32 <SimonRC> I can remember that a round peg fits into a square hole better than the other way round up until approx dimension 5.16
22:18:57 <okloTeX> i've been thinking of starting memorizing stuff as a hobby, i memorize pretty fast, i just never do it :|
22:18:57 <SimonRC> I can remember skew's number: 10^10^10^34
22:19:07 <okloTeX> like capitals, that's a one night job
22:19:14 <okloTeX> but i've just never done it
22:19:20 <ehird`> SimonRC: what happens after 5.16
22:19:35 <SimonRC> capitals are insufficiently geeky
22:19:46 <SimonRC> ehird`: it's the other way round
22:20:17 <ehird`> SimonRC: yeah. but why
22:20:31 <okloTeX> i don't care about geeky really, would just be nice to train the brain
22:20:48 <okloTeX> but yeah, it's *good* if it's geeky
22:20:57 <ehird`> okloTeX: are you like a new-age LaTeX replacement
22:21:06 <SimonRC> I find obsession and reciting to be helpful
22:21:22 <ehird`> SimonRC: i can't visualize dimensions >3 ;/
22:22:06 <okloTeX> i like memorizing just by reading, the visual peg system just makes it too easy...
22:22:26 <lament> i can visualize extra dimensions by tacking attributes on points in 3d
22:22:35 <okloTeX> that one book i was reading...
22:22:39 <lament> but then i can't "rotate" a visualized object
22:22:44 <lament> between the dimensions ;(
22:23:54 <okloTeX> i'm pretty sure you can learn to visualize 4d
22:24:22 <SimonRC> Is there much to training memory other than practice and clever techniques?
22:25:00 <okloTeX> using the visual association technique, at least i could memorize 50 objects in order on second try
22:25:15 <okloTeX> 50 is more impressive, let's go with that.
22:25:21 <okloTeX> (may have even been 20...)
22:25:25 <bsmntbombdood> easy to visualize 4d by looking at the 3d projection
22:25:46 <SimonRC> I recall a memorisation question in some quiz; I boosted my score by pairing up the objects to be memorised
22:26:40 <okloTeX> when you get good at it, you can memorize a deck of cards in 10 minutes
22:26:55 <SimonRC> okloTeX: better: memorising abcdefgh... by doing (a,b) (b,c) (c,d) (d,e) (...
22:27:00 <okloTeX> that's what the book said was how fast an average guy does it with the technique
22:27:30 <SimonRC> there are some card-shuffling devices that are vulnerable to memorising the preceding order
22:27:35 <oerjan> SimonRC: won't that break if a letter is repeated?
22:27:42 <okloTeX> eh... no, but i think 10 minutes is good for a stunt you learn in one night...
22:27:46 <SimonRC> oerjan: we are memorising a SET
22:28:04 <okloTeX> oerjan: it doesn't, the human memory also has it's own tricks...
22:28:22 <SimonRC> e.g. randomly dealing onto the top and bottom of 10 piles will create 20 runs
22:28:40 <okloTeX> if there are multiple occurrances, you remember them as exceptions, usually better than the rest
22:28:44 <SimonRC> the later ones are semi-predictable if ou konw the original orer of the cards and the cards already passed
22:28:46 <ehird`> i hope the brain is superturing
22:28:53 <ehird`> "THIS THOUGHT PROCESS WILL ALWAYS HALT!"
22:29:03 <okloTeX> unless there are many clashes, in which case just change your system a bit
22:29:03 <SimonRC> ehird`: it isn't supertring
22:29:18 <ehird`> SimonRC: WHY I WANT IT TO BE.
22:29:24 <SimonRC> actually, the brain isn;t a proof system
22:30:25 <okloTeX> i never read the book through or actually learned the techniques well... wish i did that some day...
22:30:50 <SimonRC> okloTeX: and to think that my gut churned with envy when you started talking about memorisation
22:30:53 <okloTeX> How To Develop A Super-Power Memory By Harry Lorayne-Book.pdf
22:31:11 <SimonRC> "Harry Lorayne-Book.pdf" is an unusual name
22:31:46 <SimonRC> I do suffer form terrible envy sometimes.
22:31:59 <okloTeX> me too, luckily i'm usually the best in any group :)
22:32:06 <okloTeX> but i'll kill you all soon.
22:32:19 <ehird`> my brain IS turing complete damnit
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22:34:18 <ehird`> This thought process will always halt: BOIOIOIOOING
22:34:22 <okloTeX> watching kyle xz actually was what made me interested in that book again
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22:38:16 <SimonRC> okloTeX: no, I bet I suffer from worst envy than you
22:38:43 <SimonRC> I sometimes feel slightly sick from them
22:39:12 <ehird`> my envy is superturing
22:40:11 <okloTeX> i often have an unbelievable feeling of failior, envy doesn't really get me down
22:40:41 <SimonRC> Q: What is the different between a user and woman? / A: When a user says "yes" they mean "no".
22:40:51 <SimonRC> I dispair at my on laziness
22:40:52 <okloTeX> i mean, i hallusinate a bit sometimes etc.
22:41:17 <GregorR> ehird`: I can trivially prove that your brain is not TC. Every volume has a maximum data density. Your brain has a volume. Therefore, your brain has a maximum amount of data it can store. QED.
22:41:18 <SimonRC> you fail so badly that you hallucinate?!
22:41:41 <okloTeX> i get a strong feeling of self-hatred and i fall into trance of some sort
22:41:47 <okloTeX> i get that for other things as well
22:41:55 <okloTeX> sometimes when i'm programming intensely too
22:42:11 <SimonRC> are they nice hallucinations?
22:42:24 <okloTeX> you know, writing a program, look up and can't really even see the room
22:42:45 <okloTeX> not really like man-walk-in-room kind
22:42:54 <SimonRC> GregorR: actaully the storage limit is proportinal to surface area, ISTR, for a spherical shape.
22:42:55 <okloTeX> i just get hazy vision, and voices in my head
22:43:24 <okloTeX> GregorR: nothing says it can't expand if necessary.
22:43:25 <SimonRC> I lose track of time though
22:43:30 <okloTeX> umm... it's a bit hard to explain
22:43:47 <okloTeX> like everything is moving a bit too fast
22:44:14 <okloTeX> even stationary objects seem to be moving
22:44:24 <okloTeX> and they have small gliders going around them
22:44:41 <GregorR> (I was going to say that :P )
22:44:45 <okloTeX> i haven't had that for a long time
22:44:56 <ehird`> okloTeX: are you sure you weren't just taking illegal substances? :p
22:45:03 <okloTeX> wish i did, i hate being sane
22:45:09 * SimonRC curses people with superior hacking powers to himself.
22:45:12 <okloTeX> ehird`: i've never gotten my hands on any
22:45:49 <okloTeX> SimonRC: i always escape that feeling with "i'm just 18"
22:45:56 <okloTeX> won't work for long, though
22:46:10 <okloTeX> 18 is actually too much, i thought i'd be a genius by now :P
22:46:32 <oerjan> GregorR: er, you're blind?
22:46:36 <GregorR> okloTeX: You don't "become" a genius, genius is about intelligence, not knowledge.
22:46:41 <SimonRC> well, I have occasionally had a strange feeling when walking after a long computer session (esp. AoE2) where the world feels like a crystal-clear simulation.
22:46:44 * ehird` curses people with brains
22:46:48 <okloTeX> GregorR: intelligence can be learned
22:47:12 <ehird`> okloTeX: "I'll be a genius when I'm 72!"
22:47:25 <SimonRC> COLON MINUS OPENING-PARENTHESIS
22:47:39 <GregorR> okloTeX: It's pretty well established that intelligence is just about constant. You can learn to get a higher IQ, but that's because any form of testing of intelligence is imperfect.
22:47:46 <ehird`> COLON OBJECT BULLSHIT OBJECT LANGUAGE
22:48:18 <SimonRC> There are XML-parsing libraries for COBOL.
22:48:40 <GregorR> I'm probably just bullshitting, but that's what I doooooooooooooo :)
22:48:51 <GregorR> SimonRC: That makes my brain hurt.
22:48:55 <okloTeX> GregorR: i've heard that too
22:49:20 <ehird`> there's a WEBAPP FRAMEWORK for cobol
22:49:36 <okloTeX> but 1) i don't entirely believe it and 2) you can differentiate between whether something is knowledge or just plain cleverness
22:49:43 <SimonRC> I have said it before and I say it again: COBOL is unsurpassed in the field of defining punched-card layouts.
22:49:56 <ehird`> SimonRC: it's an artform
22:50:04 <okloTeX> like oerjan who seems to get everything, then when i'm at the point of bursting from admiring, he tells me that was from memory
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22:50:36 <ehird`> @ "hello ; you have done very well have a promotion"
22:50:42 <ehird`> ; "oh wow! what is it to?"
22:51:00 <okloTeX> s/from memory/something he read somewhere
22:51:40 <SimonRC> OTOH, if a Haskell hacker got it into their heads to write a punched-card-layout-specifiying library, they would wipe the floor with the COBOL people.
22:51:53 <SimonRC> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3733345136856180693
22:52:33 <oerjan> okloTeX: perhaps cleverness is just being able to quickly recall the necessary bits you need...
22:53:10 <oerjan> of course you need to have understood the original bits.
22:53:13 <okloTeX> oerjan: exactly what i tried to say
22:53:45 <GregorR> cleverness = intelligence / recall delay :)
22:53:47 <okloTeX> bsmntbombdood: yes, but those combining techniques can be learned as well
22:54:13 <SimonRC> Paull Graham on intelligence: http://paulgraham.com/wisdom.html
22:54:41 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: Well, intelligence in any form is pretty well hindered without knowledge :)
22:55:52 <ehird`> By the way, 2 + 2 != 5.
22:57:08 <okloTeX> bsmntbombdood: you blow my mind!
22:57:30 <oerjan> ehird`: you and your modulus 11 arithmetic!
23:00:53 <ehird`> Also, 42 is actually nin.
23:06:48 <bsmntbombdood> "Most of our educational traditions aim at wisdom."
23:07:09 <oerjan> no one said they had _good_ aim :D
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23:07:46 <bsmntbombdood> because traditional learning does focus on making the jack of all trades (wisdom, according to him)
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23:19:03 <lament> bsmntbombdood: isn't that what he said?
23:19:54 <lament> i don't understand your last four lines, you seem to contradict yourself.
23:21:54 <bsmntbombdood> he says traditional education promotes wisdom. i say traditional education promotes the jack of all trades. i say jack of all trades is not wise. his definition is wrong
23:24:34 <lament> i agree with his definition
23:25:26 <lament> what do you find wrong with it, and how would you change it?
23:25:27 <bsmntbombdood> a wise person knows what to do in moral matters, not academic ones
23:26:24 <lament> isn't that exactly what he addresses in the fourth paragraph?
23:28:51 <lament> "Some say wisdom and intelligence apply to different types of problems—wisdom to human problems and intelligence to abstract ones."
23:29:12 <lament> and then he immediately explains why that isn't true.
23:31:00 <bsmntbombdood> "for example, the wisdom of the engineer who knows certain structures are less prone to failure than others."
23:31:25 <ehird`> G(^G)G <-- I wonder how big this is
23:32:32 <lament> bsmntbombdood: do you see no difference between "education promotes wisdom" and "every single aspect of wisdom is taught in schools"?
23:32:46 <lament> bsmntbombdood: hint: he says the first of those things, but not the second.
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03:15:09 <oerjan> where hast thou been, oh wretched knave?
03:15:41 <pikhq> You know, the place that eats your soul away.
03:16:09 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Education promotes wisdom. Of course, schools rarely, if ever, promote education.
03:17:08 <pikhq> (Public schools do bullshit work in the name of education, and you learn in spite of it. Colleges say "Here's the information. Learn if you want, or blow several thousand if you want.")
03:24:15 * oerjan makes a note not to discuss school with anyone in it right after the end of summer break.
03:25:32 <oerjan> this, unfortunately, is the kind of information i _never_ remember.
03:25:49 <bsmntbombdood> at least i have only minimal school time this year
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18:20:20 * zeb has never used IRC before
18:26:12 <zeb> (the silence deafens)
18:26:51 <zeb> then again, this is quite an esoteric channel
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18:45:58 <zeb> so I have this brainfuck variant...
18:46:27 <zeb> just finished proving it was turing complete
18:47:32 <zeb> instead, there's a * command
18:47:41 <zeb> it jumps to the nth cell
18:47:59 <zeb> also, the values stored in cells are unbounded
18:48:45 <zeb> in theory, this could be faster than bf because it allows random access
18:49:06 <zeb> so you could do things like heapsort
18:49:49 <zeb> unfortunately, adding two numbers looks like this:
18:51:34 <zeb> ,++*+*,+[+*[-]+*+*[-]*--]+*---.
18:57:35 <pikhq> Near as I can tell, it'd be impossible to leave something stored in a cell and then leave that cell. . .
18:57:38 <zeb> well, you can translate from brainfuck directly into this
18:57:57 <zeb> by starting with 256 +s, then a *
18:58:11 <zeb> then replace > with [*]*+*
18:58:18 <zeb> and < with [*]*-*
18:59:07 <ehird`> try hello world with those replacements
18:59:19 <sp3tt> I want to see that :D
19:01:00 <Eidolos> except it could easily infinitely loop, no?
19:01:05 <Eidolos> cell 1 has 2, cell 2 has 1
19:01:11 <zeb> not if the values are less than 256
19:01:29 <zeb> and cells 1-255 are empty
19:02:31 <ehird`> zeb: make the values unsigned
19:02:37 <zeb> yes that too
19:02:38 <ehird`> then -1 = first character of program, etc
19:02:50 <ehird`> you could make INSANE self-modifying code and loops with that
19:02:52 <zeb> doubly infinite tape
19:03:19 <ehird`> so, < and > wrap, but you can use * with negative numbers being program locations
19:03:25 <ehird`> and then, of course, a positive * to get back again
19:04:14 <zeb> but, there is no > and <
19:04:40 <ehird`> <0 * = jump in program (reversed -1 = first, -2 = second, etc)
19:04:52 <ehird`> and, of course, you can modify the program as well as read it in realtime
19:04:59 <ehird`> its like self-modifying brainfuck but more crazy
19:05:16 <zeb> but wouldn't that be... evil?
19:06:52 <ehird`> You could make an infinite loop by going into your own sourcecode, going to the end, then appending the whole source code to it
19:07:02 <ehird`> CODECODE -> CODECODECODECODE
19:07:07 <ehird`> CODECODECODECODE -> etc
19:07:32 <zeb> alright, someone wanted hello world?
19:07:40 <zeb> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*[*]*+*+++++++++[[*]*-*++++++++[*]*+*-][*]*-*.[*]*+*+++++++[[*]*-*++++[*]*+*-][*]*-*+.+++++++..+++.[*]*+++*++++++++[[*]*-*++++[*]*+*-][*]*-*.[*]*+++*++++++++++[[*]*-*+++++++++[*]*+*-][*]*-*---.[*]*----*.+++.------.--------.[*]*++*+.
19:07:49 <zeb> (you asked for it)
19:08:51 <zeb> that could probably be shortened quite a bit, though
19:14:45 <zeb> for the self modifying one... I just realized how evilly that could work
19:22:45 <zeb> but then [-*+] creates an error
19:23:23 <zeb> sorry, meant +[--*+]
19:25:05 <zeb> it should be +[---*+]
19:32:27 <ehird`> yeah, self-modifying evil is fun
19:32:36 <ehird`> quines, for instance, are /trivial/ :)
19:33:18 <ehird`> it prints <stuff at <value of ptr>>?
19:33:38 <zeb> no, it just prints
19:33:59 <ehird`> won't that go to the ascii value of the current peice of code?
19:34:00 <zeb> well, characters are usually positive
19:34:49 <zeb> but it doesn't wuit when it's supposed to
19:35:49 <zeb> once it passes the end of the program, what does it do?
19:38:18 <zeb> ok ok I have another esolang
19:38:27 <zeb> (it's a turing tarpit)
19:39:11 <zeb> the gimmick this time is that it is only turing complete because of the comments
19:40:40 <ehird`> zeb: what do you mean what does it do?
19:41:52 <zeb> -[*.**-] won't quit when it finishes outputting it's code. It'll keep running, and possibly raping children
19:42:30 <zeb> that was a grammatical failure. I'm sorry
19:44:10 <zeb> OH! A DO-WHILE LOOP
19:44:29 <ehird`> if (blah) { jump stuff[-] }
19:45:04 <zeb> *.**[-*.**] works! (assuming the cells other than the code are 0)
19:45:24 <zeb> soory, stick a - in the front of that
19:47:16 <ehird`> have you implemented it yet :(
19:47:26 <zeb> um not really
19:48:06 <zeb> unless "write out what happens by hand" counts
19:49:34 <zeb> plus, I don't see how the language should handle possibly missing [s and ]s
19:49:54 <zeb> especially if it's self modifying
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19:52:25 * zeb would rather call it brain*
19:52:29 <pikhq> We'll call it the Practical Esoteric Zebfuck-Based Language, Eh?
19:53:26 <zeb> wait, how is it practical?
19:56:20 <Eidolos> random access makes it practical :)
19:56:49 <ehird`> zeb: it should just error out
19:56:56 <ehird`> zeb: use some kind of stack+instruction-based check
19:57:18 <ehird`> so removing an ] will work fine until it reaches the end of file, probably
19:59:11 <zeb> any selfmodifying language *shouldn't* have the possibility of syntax errors
20:01:25 <pikhq> Then how, might I ask, does assembly get away with having just that?
20:01:46 <zeb> well, it might, but it shouldn't
20:02:04 <zeb> it... it just feels wrong
20:02:31 <Eidolos> are there any self-modifying languages that don't have syntax errors?
20:02:34 <ehird`> the only language without syntax errors will invariably be a forthoid
20:02:41 <ehird`> forth can self-modify. i think
20:03:00 <zeb> we could just remove [ and ] from our instruction set
20:03:12 <zeb> maybe selfmodifyingness can save us?
20:03:22 <ehird`> maybe, but it's stupid
20:03:27 <ehird`> just let syntax errors happen when they happen
20:03:33 <ehird`> self-modifying is evil in the first place.
20:06:48 <zeb> I guess I can live with that... but only as a temporary solution
20:07:07 <zeb> how about this:
20:07:18 <zeb> if a [ doesn't have a matching ], ignore it
20:07:29 <zeb> same for ]
20:07:43 <zeb> no syntax errors!
20:09:26 <ehird`> that will break a lot of hacks
20:11:29 <ehird`> basically, keep a stack of loops
20:11:33 <ehird`> do a check each instruction
20:11:43 <ehird`> if you get to the end of the file, and the stack isn't empty, error out
20:11:50 <ehird`> if you try to pop from the stack and it's empty, error out
20:11:57 <ehird`> simple, and allows lots of leeway
20:20:32 <zeb> +*++++++[+**--- -----*[ -]+*--] *[**-*, ] ought to read a program and then execute it
20:21:32 <zeb> maybe... it probably needs to be tweaked
20:23:31 <ehird`> minus numbers won't be the program itself, for example, in it
20:23:36 <ehird`> a self-interpreter for this would be... hard
20:24:04 <zeb> that's what the spaces are for
20:26:09 <zeb> wait how will it interfere? the input gets entered after the end of the program
20:27:17 <ehird`> so you can run a quine in it?
20:27:25 <ehird`> wouldn't requests to -1 go to the source code of that interpreter?
20:28:00 <zeb> you want it to still work even with self-modifying input code?!
20:30:31 <zeb> oh, another point about self-modifyingness: should the program be terminated by an EOF?
20:32:15 <ehird`> there is no EOF character
20:32:30 <zeb> um -1 then
20:33:19 <zeb> because otherwise the interpreter might go interpreting 0s on forever
20:40:41 <ehird`> and you can't have -1 in a file..
20:40:52 <zeb> that works just as well
20:41:59 <zeb> but now my program above no longer works :(
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21:40:27 <zeb> hmm, I guess what I meant is that after the end of a source file, the next memory cell should contain -1
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03:00:36 <Sgeo> Just poking my head in to say that I'm alive and well, but don't have the time nor energy to work on PSOX tonight..
03:08:39 <pikhq> 5 day weekend. . . T3h w00ts.
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14:49:27 <oklopol> >>> in-fi (5 - 2) * (7 - 1) + (8 - 3) * (1 - 0)
14:49:32 <oklopol> >>> in-pr (5 - 2) * (7 - 1) + (8 - 3) * (1 - 0)
14:49:38 <oklopol> >>> in-po (5 - 2) * (7 - 1) + (8 - 3) * (1 - 0)
14:50:23 <oklopol> >>> in-pr (5 - 2) * (7 - 1) + (8 - 3) * (1 - 0)
14:50:27 <oklopol> >>> in-po (5 - 2) * (7 - 1) + (8 - 3) * (1 - 0)
14:50:51 <oklopol> >>> in-po (5 - 2) * (7 - 1) + (8 - 3) * (1 - 0)
14:50:52 <ololobot> ['*', ['-', 5, 2], ['-', 7, 1]] * - 8 3 - 1 0 +
14:51:21 <oklopol> gotta fix that later, i'm late already ->
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16:50:37 <sebbu> vive le ddl de musique licenciée, gratuite et légale :D
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19:43:31 <ihope> The idea of a parsing-based language came into my head while I was pondering this JSP diagram: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:JSP_RLE_correspondence.png
19:46:16 <ihope> A parser is given a string as state. It then chomps off stuff from the beginning of the string and eventually either returns something or fails.
19:46:41 <ihope> If it fails, all the stuff it chomped off is unchomped. If it succeeds, it stays chomped.
19:49:58 <ihope> Let's not yet go crazy and add first-class functions. :-P
19:50:27 <ihope> There could be a notation, much like Haskell's do-notation, for putting parsers together to get new ones.
19:56:38 <ehird`_> ihope: Combinatorial parsing.
19:56:43 <ehird`_> ihope: You've just described it
19:56:58 <ihope> The do-notation thing and an alternation syntax.
19:57:03 <oerjan> you realize this is just StateT String [], right?
19:57:21 <ihope> oerjan: I rather doubt that.
19:57:44 <oerjan> or perhaps StateT String Maybe...
19:58:11 <ihope> My description has no way to, say, append to the beginning of your string.
19:59:05 <oerjan> well restricting the allowed operations is an exercise for the reader :)
20:01:19 <ihope> I guess restriction does have to be possible.
20:01:25 <ihope> At least a little, anyway.
20:02:28 <ihope> My delimited continuation monad transformer implementation would work just fine if all the data constructors were exposed as normal functions.
20:02:47 <ihope> Exposing them as data constructors would allow the reading of Things Not Meant To Be Read.
20:04:41 <ehird`_> is it just me, or are semaphores basically identical to locks
20:05:17 <ihope> One of them is shift, one of them is return, and one of them is join . lift.
20:06:27 <ihope> Semaphores... are those the type of boolean variable where the basic operation thing is "wait until it's X and make it not X"?
20:06:35 <ehird`_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semaphore_%28programming%29
20:07:54 <oerjan> ehird`_: a lock is just a semaphore with 1 resource, right?
20:08:23 <ehird`_> the functions look basiaclly the same to me
20:08:40 <oerjan> however semaphores allow more than one resource, which is not identical
20:10:49 <ihope> Semaphores can be implemented using a semaphore.
20:11:08 <ihope> Naturally, this is probably useless unless you have only one semaphore.
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