00:00:00 <oerjan> @let primes = nubBy ((>1).gcd) [2..]
00:02:52 <oerjan> should have been @let primes = nubBy (((>1).).gcd) [2..]
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00:08:00 <oklopol> ah, i thought there was something weird in you saying that in here, but indeed, it must've been that error.
00:13:38 <ihope> immibis: maybe it's the \ in [^ \$]
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03:58:48 <oklopol> i've found another immibis
03:59:30 <oklopol> i think he's mating or something!
04:13:01 <oklopol> (i guess i might not have said that had i realized immibis was actually here, but i stand behind my statement xD)
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18:57:30 <RodgerTheGreat> my idea was to create something like a polyglot in reverse
18:57:44 <RodgerTheGreat> an interpreter and/or compiler for a bunch of different esolangs mooshed together
19:38:12 <bsmntbombdood> brainfuck and unlambda are a good combination because they are so different
19:38:43 <bsmntbombdood> so if you combine code for them, it will probably be completely ununderstandable
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20:23:29 <GregorR> If it's ununderstandable, does that mean it's derstandable?
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20:34:30 <molchuvka> RodgerTheGreat -- i will soon start writing a language which will have other languages as its sub-languages
20:35:47 <molchuvka> and will allow for adding additional languages using program source code (i.e. compilation units -- programs -- will add languages, it is not a install procedure but a property of compiler)
20:37:00 <molchuvka> that is, a program will be able to define one or more new sub-languages, and will be able to immediately use them
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21:15:12 <jix> forth can do that... kind of
21:15:35 <jix> i think you can just change how the parser works right in your code
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21:24:24 <oerjan> what molchuvka said just before you entered
21:26:02 <molchuvka> jix yes i know forth do some degree
21:26:28 <jix> molchuvka: i think you can change everything with some forth systems
21:26:40 <jix> everything as in you can change the complete code of the parser compiler and everything
21:27:17 <molchuvka> behavior and code of compiler will be influenced at runtime by program code --- i.e. program code will be able to have a complex impact on compiler behavior, interacting compiler and program code
21:28:47 <molchuvka> but well... my language will be free syntax, noone did this in forth
21:30:28 <molchuvka> i have a lot of expirience with ll1 grammars
21:31:14 <oerjan> i recall something similar on lambda the ultimate a while ago
21:31:51 <molchuvka> also i plan that names are any objects
21:32:15 <oerjan> a language which could embed other languages' syntax
21:32:25 <molchuvka> e.g. name can be rich text or image or animation or applet
21:32:29 <oklopol> i got a pocket pc, btw! i'm the coolest ever
21:32:59 <oklopol> now if i could just find an irc client, my life would be perfect
21:37:23 <GregorR> oklopol: I had a Pocket PC. Then I installed a real OS :P
21:40:25 <molchuvka> i currently plan using Oberon-2 as a bootstrap language
21:40:53 <ehird`> molchuvka: you are wrong
21:45:42 <oklopol> GregorR: on that, or was that a joke i didn't get? :)
21:46:46 <oklopol> i have windows mobile on this, is it easy to get a nix in?
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21:48:59 <GregorR> oklopol: Depends on what model.
21:49:25 <GregorR> oklopol: Since there's literally zero architecture standardization, porting to one is pretty much a once-off task.
21:49:25 <oklopol> don't remember the exact model right now...
21:54:48 * oerjan thinks that joke has simply too many meta-levels
21:54:57 <oerjan> i'm not even sure it has a point
21:55:02 <ehird`> There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who know binary, and those who don't.
21:55:07 <ehird`> And those who confuse it with ternary.
21:55:22 <RodgerTheGreat> but this is the most likely place I know of for people to appreciate it
21:55:50 <GregorR> There are infinity kinds of people in this world. Those who understand base-1 math, and those who don't.
21:56:25 <ehird`> GregorR: I hate people who call base-1 unary.
21:56:40 <ehird`> If base 2 = 01, then base 1 = 0
21:56:54 <ehird`> thus everything is 0 in base 1
21:59:15 <RodgerTheGreat> everything is base 10. How do you write 8 in base-8? 10. How do you write 3 in base-3? 10.
22:00:19 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: you blew my mind!
22:00:53 <GregorR> ehird`: 0 is 0. Now increase by one, and you'll end up in an infinite loop trying to define digits.
22:01:16 <GregorR> Hence, infinity kinds of people.
22:01:24 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: Sam Hughes suggested that should be used for a first-contact comedy ;)
22:01:54 <ehird`> "infinity" in language refers to infinity as in a number > all other numbers, not infinite number-base expansion
22:02:00 <ehird`> which is why .9r is not infinity ;)
22:02:01 <RodgerTheGreat> we should definitely use unary until we understand each other to some degree
22:02:25 <ehird`> but, how should you transmit the message?
22:02:38 <ehird`> you can't signal with binary
22:02:43 <ehird`> you can basically do nothing
22:02:59 <oklopol> without binary, there's nothing
22:03:10 <ehird`> if an alien beams down to try and communicate with you
22:03:23 <ehird`> (Assuming alien has no knowledge of humans)
22:03:40 <oerjan> reverse run-length encoding
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00:57:59 <pikhq> Out of *immense* curiosity, why are you no longer a first-class player in Agora?
01:01:05 <GregorR> Because, although you can store oerjan in a variable, you cannot pass oerjan as an argument to a function.
01:02:15 <ihope> Variable, you say? How hideous.
01:02:34 <ihope> You don't see variables hanging around in math, do you? :-P
01:03:01 <oerjan> they're just not _mutable_ variables
01:03:42 <ihope> If they're not mutable, they're not very variable, are they?
01:04:05 <GregorR> They're variables because their value depends on unknown information (generally speaking).
01:05:20 <GregorR> I love how I've prevented oerjan from actually asking the original question :P
01:05:49 <ihope> Now preventing him further would require some creativity on your part.
01:06:06 <ihope> You just provoked him.
01:06:20 <GregorR> How did I screw up "answering" for "asking"...
01:06:26 <GregorR> I mean, they're related, but yeesh X-D
01:06:28 <ihope> Wait, did I just stifle him by saying you provoked him? Oh, wait, I provoked him by pointing out the stifling.
01:06:37 <GregorR> I'm just going to call it an incredibly intense typo.
01:06:39 <ihope> They're related and start with a. Therefore, they're confusable.
01:06:58 <GregorR> Like apples and artichoke!
01:07:17 <ihope> I don't think those are quite related enough.
01:07:34 <GregorR> They're both edible plant stuff.
01:07:38 <ihope> People ask questions regularly, and they answer questions regularly, and in about the same circumstances.
01:07:51 <ihope> They don't eat apples and artichokes in the same circumstances, generally.
01:08:11 <GregorR> You've never had my famous apple-glazed artichoke apparently.
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01:11:18 * oerjan is realizing he may have to actually answer the question, despite GregorR's best attempts
01:11:30 <GregorR> Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
01:11:45 <GregorR> I did such a good job of driving the conversation away, after I had myself drug it back just for the /challenge/.
01:12:06 <GregorR> I jumped from asking/answering to apple-glazed artichokes! Give me /some/ credit!
01:13:09 <GregorR> I think I might actually have to try apple-glazed artichokes X-D
01:13:24 <GregorR> On the surface it sounds horrible, but I think it might be one of those flavor combos that shouldn't work, but does.
01:13:39 <pikhq> I'm reminded, once again, that this is Gregor. :)
01:13:50 <oklopol> "(GregorR) How did I screw up "answering" for "asking"..." <<< yep, the laws of physics prevent him to do that
01:14:33 <GregorR> Clrealy Im' incaapble fo tpyos.
01:15:12 <ihope> Like ham and pineapple?
01:15:35 <ihope> I'm trying to come up with a disgusting--oh, of course.
01:15:46 <ihope> Salisbury steak with strawberry ice cream.
01:16:08 <GregorR> pikhq: How do you deep-fry oil? That's just mixing some oil into some other oil ...
01:16:12 <oerjan> anyway, i lost interest, even cut down a lot on my internet use. of course the last year has been just one large setback...
01:16:14 <ihope> I wouldn't call deep fried oil a disgusting flavor combination.
01:16:29 <ihope> Salisbury steak with strawberry ice cream?
01:16:34 <GregorR> ihope: (Salistrawberry that is)
01:16:58 <pikhq> Well, we could try to deep-fry lard. . .
01:17:21 <GregorR> 'round these parts, we call that pork rinds.
01:17:24 <GregorR> And they're deeeeeeeeeeeeelicious.
01:17:45 <pikhq> That's fried pig *skin*, not fat.
01:18:20 <GregorR> You don't cut the fat off the skin when you make pork rinds.
01:18:38 <pikhq> BTW, I'm more just being random.
01:18:49 * oerjan is trying to remember Delirium's ice cream flavor from Sandman
01:19:58 <oerjan> ah yes, giyf. "Green Mouse and Telephone Icecream"
01:23:39 <ihope> Don't telephones contain Mercury?
01:23:45 <ihope> (Either the planet or the Roman god; I don't care.)
01:24:09 <GregorR> How to make a tasty deep-fried treat: 1) Buy ingredients: Large vat of boiling oil, dry ice and a small Filipino boy. 2) Place Filipino boy in dry ice until frozen solid. 3) Shatter now-frozen Filipino boy into boiling oil. 4) Wait fifteen minutes, drain and enjoy!
01:25:21 <bsmntbombdood> so, how can we combine a brainfuck and unlambda interpreter?
01:25:52 <ihope> Take advantage of the fact that stack-based = suffix notation.
01:26:09 <ihope> Alternatively, 0x29A.
01:27:00 <ihope> ...what are you after?
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03:14:03 <immibis> oklopol: what did you mean when you said "i found another immibis"?
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03:36:14 <oklopol> immibis: i found a guy that's a lot like you.
03:36:22 <oklopol> so much like you that i had to say it somewhere.
03:38:22 <bsmntbombdood> it was about a lesbian who pretended to be a man in order to pick up chicks, and ended up hating men because of her experiences
03:38:57 <ihope> Pretending to be a man in order to pick up chicks?
03:39:19 <oklopol> is there something weird in that? :\
03:39:21 <ihope> "I have something to tell you." "What?" "I... I'm a woman." "WHAT?" *slam*
03:39:41 <ihope> Or am I misunderstanding?
03:39:53 <ihope> I'd better read today's xkcd to make sure.
03:40:07 <oklopol> well you can do other stuff, and tell her the truth once it'll be emotionally fatal for her to leave you
03:40:39 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure someone lying about their genitals isn't that eager to get naked.
03:40:41 <bsmntbombdood> ihope: she just did it to learn about a single, het, man's relationship with women
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03:45:39 <RodgerTheGreat> It baffles me why someone would go to the internet to "pick up chicks" in the first place
03:47:22 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: the get them without having to go out?
03:47:59 <RodgerTheGreat> bsmntbombdood: oh, alright- that makes a tiny bit more sense
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04:50:32 <GregorR> Hmmm, is MISC supposed to increase its instruction pointer before or after branching? That is, do you branch to 0 to just branch to the next instruction, or branch to 1? ...
04:53:01 <GregorR> I'm trying to write a quick MISC interpreter.
04:53:34 <GregorR> But I don't know whether branching to 0 is a loop or a noop...
04:54:52 <GregorR> IMHO, \0\0\0\0 should be a noop.
04:55:16 <GregorR> (That continues on the next instruction)
04:55:23 <GregorR> That is, IP would increment after branching.
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05:24:09 <oklopol> math test in 40 mins, and i did not sleep
05:24:40 <oklopol> they don't teach anything in high school
05:25:44 <oklopol> i don't know if it's any use going to the test, i'm not gonna pass the course unless i do about 50 additional exercises, and i don't think i'm gonna
05:25:56 <oklopol> but then again, it can't hurt me
05:27:26 <oklopol> btw, i just installed python on my pocket pc and it has almost all the library support the *real* python has
05:27:38 <oklopol> should i idolize python or microsoft for this?
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06:50:30 <GregorR> My MISC interpreter (+ memory mapped I/O) just printed an 'A' :)
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08:10:39 <oklopol> i'm sure everyone wants to know that ;)
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16:25:25 <GregorR> Anybody want to write a MISC backend for GCC? :P
16:36:10 <GregorR> http://www.choosemyhat.com/ < WTF???
16:36:21 <GregorR> Did somebody hack my vote?!
16:37:45 <GregorR> They're all from different IPs >_O
16:38:00 <GregorR> Somebody first hacked a bunch of other systems, and THEN hacked my hat site :P
16:38:52 <oklopol> 75 votes is more than the usual daily vote amount?
16:42:11 <oklopol> tomorrow it'll get over a million.
16:45:48 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR: well, at least you know whoever hacked your site is dedicated
16:46:02 <oklopol> i pressed a green hat and a blue one was chosen :<<
16:46:14 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, my. What would happen if somebody dugg ChooseMyHat.com?
16:46:19 <oklopol> but anyways, i already got one vote, 999997 left
16:47:03 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR: how can your webserver stand up to a slashdot?
16:47:16 <oklopol> actually, i have 3 ip's, so i could at least get 3 votes
16:47:33 <oklopol> err...... prolly don't just ban individual ip's, but the whole... set
16:47:49 <RodgerTheGreat> actually... oh, computer lab access would be evil here
16:48:33 <oklopol> pretty easy to get 75 votes there, it's not like it's that hard to get people to press one button :P
16:50:23 <RodgerTheGreat> if I understand correctly, digg items getting onto the main page is a function of the "velocity", or rate at which something gains diggs.
16:50:42 <RodgerTheGreat> if you can get about 7 people to digg in in a few minutes, it'll hit front page and take off like crazy
16:53:27 <bsmntbombdood> hopefully new acounts don't have less weight than old ones
16:54:14 <RodgerTheGreat> hurry up with the post- I gotta leave for class in a few minutes
16:55:28 <oklopol> i haven't gotten the mail yet..
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17:03:59 <oklopol> hmm... what should GregorR hurry?
17:15:15 <ehird`> i got to #1 almost instantly
17:15:24 <ehird`> when i made The Most Pointless Site Ever
17:15:47 <ehird`> (if you weren't there: you made an account, then there was a number. there was a button to increase the number (for everyone else too) and a list of people who have clicked the most. That's it.)
17:15:56 <ehird`> it got #1 on digg for a long time
17:16:11 <ehird`> it was submitted, then the next day a few people had digged it
17:16:17 <ehird`> i had posted it on a forum i frequent
17:16:24 <ehird`> and people just ended up digging it
17:16:51 <ehird`> all in all it got over 600 diggs in total, digg used tons of scripts, and /b/ found it
17:16:57 <ehird`> so, digg's algo is kinda broken
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19:14:20 <ehird`> Context-Free Design Grammar is wow
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19:14:24 <ehird`> it has some esoterica in there
19:14:42 <ehird`> in that you can do infinite recursion as long as the part you draw gets infinitely small
19:14:47 <ehird`> which is crazy awesome
19:14:51 <ehird`> a very natural way to think about things
19:14:57 <ehird`> and must make things like the mandelbrot set trivial
19:15:21 <SimonRC> The mandlebrot self is not self--similar
19:16:36 <Sgeo> What are we talking about?
19:17:08 <ehird`> Context-Free Design Grammar
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21:35:58 <moomoo> let f be the mccarthy 91 function
21:37:47 <moomoo> please compute f(n) for every n between 0 and 100
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22:00:41 <bsmntbombdood> how am i supposed to talk about brainfuck with a teacher ?
22:02:05 <lament> maybe give your teacher flowers first?
22:05:16 <oerjan> call it brainhugsandkisses
22:12:53 <ehird`> brainsexualintercourse
22:14:28 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: hopefully any teacher intersted in it is the type that doesn't care about the words, just how they're used
22:17:16 <SimonRC> When talking about sex, there are few words that were not at some point a euphamism.
22:17:17 <lament> is "brain" a swear word? i don't think so.
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22:18:14 <SimonRC> "sex" was originally male/female, "make love" is a euphamism, "shag" is random, ditto "rodger" etc.
22:18:36 <SimonRC> the only non-euphamism I can think of is "fuck" itself
22:20:12 <bsmntbombdood> and the teacher in question isn't interested in it specifically, i just have to tell them what i'm working on
22:22:15 <lament> by the way, it's "euphemism"
22:24:13 <ehird`> That would be a good name for a BF derivative.
22:29:54 <bsmntbombdood> this torrent has 7991 seeders, but is downloading at 6kB/s
22:30:01 <ehird`> they are very slow seeders
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22:33:09 <lament> 7991? it can only be porn
22:33:43 <lament> linux distro? "Lesbian"?
22:38:06 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: is that NSFW
22:40:47 <ehird`> thats a shitload of macs
22:43:25 <ehird`> Or is it a metric fuckton?
22:45:28 * SimonRC prefers the imperial fuckton
22:46:21 <bsmntbombdood> a metric fuckton is larger than an imperial fuckton
22:47:34 <SimonRC> no, a common misconception
22:47:37 <oerjan> so now you can convert a pound to either newtons or fucktons, depending?
22:51:54 <ehird`> everything you need to know about the metric fuckton: http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1398601
22:59:00 <ehird`> i think you've got that back assward
23:00:07 <SimonRC> I could nick that for an Uncyclopedia article.
23:00:55 <bsmntbombdood> or it could be 1000/907, depending on how you look at it
23:07:50 <oerjan> i see you are using a properly shitty calculator for this
23:09:38 <lament> >>> 1111111111 ** 2 - 1111111110 * 1111111112
23:09:49 <lament> i like nice calculators :)
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23:32:42 <ehird`> you copied and pasted python interactive prompt stuff
23:33:21 <oerjan> only because he is EVIL
23:35:09 <GregorR> I made an assembly language (and assembler) for MISC.
23:35:22 <GregorR> It's fun writing assembly with only arguments, no operators :P
23:36:11 <GregorR> A taste of misc-as: 0xFF 0xFF $1 0 # Subtract 1 from the value at address 0xFF
23:36:27 <GregorR> Erm, that's /relative/ address 0xFF
23:38:06 <GregorR> What did your assembly language look like?
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23:46:37 <ehird`> Craziest reddit headline ever: Australian actresses are plagiarizing my quantum mechanics lecture to sell printers
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23:55:54 <GregorR> So, I bought an old tablet PC plus "whatever spare parts I have lying around." Apparently "whatever spare parts I have lying around" amounts to FIVE SPARE BATTERIES.
23:56:25 <GregorR> I didn't desperately need six batteries for this :P
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00:34:08 <GregorR> Feels weird to remove a hard disk from an old computer, plug it into my computer and then boot it in QEmu :P
00:34:17 <GregorR> Seems sort of insulting to the real computer when it runs faster in QEmu X-D
00:48:17 * pikhq pisses on a flag, taking advantage of the federal law superseding state law in that instance
00:49:20 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR: We can recompile it... we have the technology. Stronger, faster, better than before.
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00:51:55 * pikhq starts playing "harder better faster stronger"
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00:52:42 * RodgerTheGreat is listening to Around The World / Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger by Daft Punk from Coachella 2006
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00:56:43 <lament> that's music great acid trips are made of
00:59:00 <RodgerTheGreat> a guy named "With Your Ass" posted a thread asking suggestions for removing shards of a broken beer bottle from his backpack entitled "How do I get tiny glass shards out of my sack?"
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01:02:58 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah- I think a dryer is the best idea I could think of
01:03:03 <bsmntbombdood> it would really suck to get tiny glass shards in your sack though
01:04:19 <bsmntbombdood> a la http://wiki.bmezine.com/index.php/Scrotal_infection (nsfw)
01:08:06 <RodgerTheGreat> out of morbid curiosity, did you just type "infected scrotum" into google for that thing?
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01:13:06 <bsmntbombdood> "A Case Of Multiple Sebaceous Cysts Over Scrotum In A 35 Years Old Male"
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04:00:47 <pikhq> Not listened to that album, so my approval is of the band. . .
04:01:05 * RodgerTheGreat is listening to Emotion 98.6 by Mylo from Destroy Rock & Roll
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06:41:38 <GregorR> I made macros to make functions/calling easier in MISC :)
06:52:00 <GregorR> Now, I just need a backend for GCC ...
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07:54:06 <GregorR> I have macros for MUL/DIV/MOD now :)
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10:26:05 <ais523> I'm annoyed at regular expressions not having enough computational class to do everything I want them to do
10:26:33 <ais523> for instance, several times I'd have found it useful to have a regexp that matches a string with matched parentheses
10:26:52 <ais523> so I'm working on a Turing-complete enhanced-regexp language
10:28:37 <Arrogant> Perl 6 rules look pretty cool.
10:29:16 <ais523> only by embedding Perl into them, I think
10:29:49 <ehird`> i seem to remember with some bizzare hacks you can make it TC
10:29:54 <ehird`> e.g., that regexp that can solve sudoku
10:30:33 <ais523> in my language, I can write (\($+\)|'^\(\)'|) and get an expression that matches only strings with matched parens
10:30:37 <ais523> how is that done in Perl?
10:30:55 <ais523> (the $+ means 'match a copy of the containing group')
10:30:58 <ehird`> i do not actually know, sorry#
10:31:03 <ehird`> but i have heard a few times that they are TC
10:31:40 <ehird`> http://perl.abigail.be/Talks/Sudoku/HTML
10:32:28 <ais523> also, I have things like (a*)b*:-c*:- to solve the famous n as, n bs, n cs problem, which I think is considerably shorter than the corresponding BF program
10:33:48 <ais523> by the way, a non-TC program can solve Sudoku
10:33:56 <ais523> (in theory, you could do it with a lookup table)
10:35:10 <ehird`> take a look at the examples
10:35:13 <ehird`> i sure don't grok them,
10:35:19 <ehird`> but i don't think they're using a lookup table
10:35:36 <ais523> no, they're just placing a huge number of constraints on the problem
10:36:11 <ais523> traditional regular expressions can be compiled into a finite-state machine
10:36:19 <ehird`> http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&hs=KCL&q=perl+5+regular+expressions+turing+complete&btnG=Search&meta= Perhaps you will find something here.
10:36:25 <ehird`> perl 5 regexps are not traditional
10:36:32 <ais523> I don't think Perl regular expressions are any better in that respect, but I don't know
10:45:06 * ais523 is reading through the Google results, and so far has found a lot of people disagreeing with each other
11:00:31 <SimonRC> mathematical regexs can be compiled into FSMs -- I studied it at Uni
11:02:18 <ais523> I'm reading through Perl5 and Perl6 regex syntax
11:02:38 <ais523> Perl5 allows ?{} (embed Perl code), which obviously makes it TC, but that's cheating
11:03:29 <ais523> it also allows ??{} (defered evaluation), which can be used to execute arbitrary Perl or which can be used to create a context-free grammar
11:03:35 <ais523> I'm not sure if using that is cheating
11:04:07 <ais523> Perl6's regexes are like Perl5s, but re-written to be more verbose and 'readable' to beginning programmers
11:04:31 <ais523> if multiple 'rules' are given, it again creates a context-free grammar
11:04:54 <ais523> but I'm not sure if a context-free grammar can match (a*)b*:-c*:-
11:07:24 <ais523> it's interesting to see the parallel evolution of my regex language and Perl6's, though; for instance, they both contain constructs equivalent to Prolog's 'cut' and 'fail'
11:08:35 <ais523> ...and we both changed . to also match newlines
11:28:49 <ehird`> i might make a regexp-like language
11:29:04 <ehird`> i've always wanted for ?[\\$]%(.=&)/ to match something
11:29:56 <ais523> what you wrote is a syntax error in my language, unfortunately (partly because I deliberately don't use square brackets for anything)
11:31:29 <ehird`> i've always wanted regexps that can match entire languages
11:31:46 <ehird`> a kind-of-regexp parser in one kind-of-regexp would be awesome!
11:31:49 <ais523> I was designing my regexp language partly for that purpose
11:32:02 <ehird`> why don't any regexp impls have nested regexp groups?
11:32:17 <ais523> what exactly do you mean by that
11:32:39 <ehird`> (a(b)) -> [['a', ['b']]]
11:32:56 <ais523> what do the square brackets represent?
11:33:01 <ehird`> you could generate an entire parse tree, with some additional commands (like "don't nest", "pop out" etc)
11:33:04 <ehird`> arrays in the language
11:33:18 <ehird`> from a match_str(pattern, str)
11:33:29 <ais523> I think my language might be able to do that, but I can't remember the syntax offhand
11:33:32 <ehird`> so instead of (a) when given "a" returning ['a']
11:33:49 <ehird`> so, a match is a list of text and submatches
11:33:57 <ehird`> so, it's a parse tree, really
11:34:18 <ais523> it wouldn't do it by default, but you could write something like (a=\Ba\E)
11:34:21 <ehird`> if there is a way to say "append this to the result set, even if it is not in the string:", then you can parse an /entire language/ with one regexp0thing :D
11:34:28 <ais523> where \B and \E change into [ and ] in the output
11:34:42 <ehird`> pretend we are in a programming language
11:34:44 <ehird`> NOT the regexp language
11:35:00 <ehird`> [[x, y, z], [a, b, c]] is an array with two arrays as elements
11:35:08 <ehird`> matching (a) on the string a would produce [['a']]
11:35:28 <ehird`> think of the result of matching as something like [$1, $2, $3...] in perl
11:35:31 <ais523> that's it: my regexp language outputs a set of nested arrays as its answer when \B and \E are used
11:35:44 <ehird`> except, $1, $2, etc. are ALSO match results
11:35:54 <ehird`> so just matching (a) on the strng 'a' gives [['a']]
11:36:01 <ais523> the = causes its LHS to be 'replaced' with its RHS in a vague sense
11:36:07 <ehird`> (a(b))c((d)e) on 'abcde' produces:
11:36:21 <ehird`> [['a', ['b']], [['d'], 'e']]
11:36:44 <ais523> so your output just mirrors the group syntax of the input?
11:38:11 <ehird`> there would be a modifier of some sort for () which says 'put this N levels upward in the tree' or 'pop out N levels'
11:38:16 <ehird`> or 'don't nest this match'
11:38:38 <ehird`> (a(b))c((d)e) in regular regexps in 'abcde' would be ['a', 'b', 'd', 'e'] which i do not think is nearly as useful for simple matching OR parsing
11:38:55 <ais523> something like you suggest can be done reasonably simply with Perl5 regexps
11:39:06 <ais523> you put an extra group around each section between groups, like this:
11:39:26 <ais523> ((a)((b)))(c)(((d))(e))
11:39:42 <ais523> and then you simply have a template to fill $ns into, like this:
11:39:58 <ehird`> but its not as convenient, imo
11:40:07 <ehird`> you could do everything your regexps do with perl's regexp eval feature
11:40:12 <ehird`> that doesn't mean it's useful to do it like that
11:40:34 <ais523> [[$2, [$4]], [[$8], $9]] (I'm going to finish writing this comment anyway, even though it's long after it's relevant)
11:40:52 <ais523> the point is you could write a program to automatically compile regexps like you suggest into the existing form
11:42:06 <ehird`> sure, but add the other features of my regexp stuff i have in my head
11:42:11 <ehird`> which you can't compile short of eval
11:43:37 <ais523> well, I like my language because I can do (\(($1)\)=\B=1\E|'^\(\)'|)
11:44:39 <ais523> if applied to the string (a(b))c((d)e) it would return [['a',['b']],'c',[['d'],'e']]
11:44:58 <ais523> in other words, it's parsing the brackets in the input string into the array notation of the language that you're using
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11:45:54 <ehird`> i'm pretty sure i could do similar
11:45:56 <ehird`> the nesting is not required
11:46:07 <ehird`> you can make a () pair not nest inline
11:46:10 <ais523> to be exact, you'd have to put =^ at the end if you were using this as part of a larger regexp, but the system adds that automatically if it's not given anywhere
11:46:13 <ehird`> and you can manually add nesting levels with it
11:46:18 <ehird`> and add/remove elements to them
11:46:26 <ehird`> so, mine can do what yours does too
11:46:41 <ais523> what would a regexp for doing that look like in your language?
11:48:10 <ehird`> i have no idea. i haven't written down my language yet.
11:48:13 <ehird`> i just have ideas for it.
11:48:17 <ehird`> that above would definately be possible though
11:49:24 * ais523 is still reading the Perl6 regexp syntax
11:51:53 <ais523> ehird`: it seems that Perl6 does hierarchical capturing through capture brackets like you were suggesting above
11:52:12 <ais523> (although it returns a nested hierarchy of Match objects rather than just arrays)
11:52:15 <ehird`> FUCK! I'm starting to think like Larry Wall.
11:52:23 <ehird`> arrays was kinda symbolic
11:52:31 <ehird`> the notation was a way to represent match data
11:53:40 <ais523> so given the regex ( a ( b ) ) c ( ( d ) e ) you would get an output in which $1[0] was "d" (because the matches are 0-based)
11:55:02 <ehird`> can you do nammed submatches?
11:55:18 <ais523> yes, in both Perl6 and my language
11:55:25 <ehird`> so, $r['g']['g2'] or similar
11:55:54 <ais523> I don't think the named submatches are hierarchical, but I admit I'm a bit confused trying to read the document in question
11:56:02 <ais523> http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn/S05.html
11:58:22 <ais523> so here's a problem: suppose you have an Unlambda expression, and you want to convert it to another expression in which the arguments to every ` have been swapped
11:58:29 <ais523> considering just s and k for simplicity,
11:59:19 <ais523> I would write this as (`($1)($1)=`=2=1|s|k)=^ (the =^ is optional if this is the whole regex)
11:59:33 <ais523> I wonder if it's possible to do anything like that in other regex languages?
12:00:07 <ehird`> intuitively i think yes, but the regexp would be repetitive i think
12:00:19 <ehird`> another feature my regexps will have, is nested regexps
12:00:27 <ehird`> you can run other regexps on other strings, get their matches, etc
12:00:36 <ehird`> you can run a string as the regexp, even!
12:00:50 <ais523> I was planning something similar, but hadn't worked out all the syntax
12:00:53 <ehird`> strings of course include groups, replacements on groups, etc
12:01:21 <ais523> you could run a regexp on just what was matched by a group, even using that regexp to /change/ what that group matched from the point of view of the rest of the expression
12:01:39 <ais523> or you could take what was matched by a group as the regexp itself, or both (or neither)
12:04:03 <ehird`> the possibilities are endless ;)
12:04:41 <ais523> 'what was matched by a group' is the closest my language has to variables, as it can be changed retroactively (without modifying the original string; there are other ways to do that)
12:09:15 <ais523> a good quote I just came across: 'we think the popular term "regex" is in the process of becoming a technical term with a precise meaning of: "something you do pattern matching with, kinda like a regular expression"'
12:09:22 <Tritonio> the funny thing is that before some days a friend of me found bad sectors in his disk which is the almost the same model with mine.
12:10:01 <Tritonio> is there a tool for surface scan in Linux?
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12:30:45 <ehird`> my language will let you assign arbitary things to groups
12:31:01 <ehird`> so, combine the 'arbitary' and 'don't add to match results' modifiers,
12:31:18 <ehird`> or, just use 'arbitary' to insert elements into various places in the match tree
12:31:22 <ais523> I assume there's some way to generate an infinite number of them
12:31:23 <ehird`> -> easy parsetree generation
12:31:36 <ais523> mine can, but only in a push-down way
12:32:28 <ehird`> turing complete parse-tree generation
12:32:38 <ehird`> no more fscking yacc or workalikes!
12:33:09 <ais523> it seems you, me and Perl6 all have the same aim here
12:34:08 <ehird`> with regular-expression-alikes.
12:34:21 <ehird`> have i mown your blind sufficiently yet?
12:34:34 <ais523> one traditional problem in parsing a language: the construct (a, b):=(c, d) which assigns c to a and d to b exists in some languages
12:34:41 <ais523> it's very hard to write those semantics in BNF
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12:35:14 <ais523> because there have to be the same number of variables on each side, and the first variable on the LHS maps to the first variable on the RHS
12:35:15 <molchuvka> in coco/r, it's straightforward to write this in EBNF
12:35:39 <ehird`> coco/r is horrid though, so shush ;)
12:35:54 <ais523> the traditional solution was to accept any number on each side, and then check there were the same number on each side when translating the parse tree
12:35:56 <ehird`> ais523: good old a*nb*nc*n problem
12:36:09 <ais523> yes, just in a different form
12:36:24 <molchuvka> ehird`: please describe the word 'horrid', i dont have dictionary at hand
12:36:39 <ehird`> molchuvka: the fuel that powers the steam engine that creates nightmares
12:36:44 <ais523> the a^nb^n problem can be solved by a push-down, with an expression like (a$+b|) in my notation
12:36:51 <ais523> but it matches the last a with the first b
12:38:04 <ehird`> since these re-alikes are turing complete
12:38:18 <ehird`> and with mine at least, you can parse a full language into a parse-tree with only one single re-alikes
12:38:23 <ehird`> what expression parses perl 5?
12:38:52 <ais523> Perl6 apparently has a built-in expression for parsing perl6; it's a constant that's just defined by the language
12:39:04 <ais523> an expression to parse perl5 would take a while to write, I expect
12:39:28 <ais523> but it would be useful because I've never seen a really good Perl syntax highlighter (that can handle regexps and the weird quoting syntax)
12:40:07 <ehird`> damn, just think how complex it would be
12:40:19 <ehird`> you'd be utilizing turing complete hacks all over the place to be 100% correct
12:40:53 <ehird`> for convenience i think my regexp language will include a special quine "variable" (group) that is just the string of the expression it is contained it
12:41:02 <ehird`> this, incidentally, makes a quine very trivial :P
12:41:15 <ais523> well, the null string's a quine in mine
12:41:30 * ais523 tries to thing of a quine in their language that's at least one byte long
12:41:30 <ehird`> i can just imagine the docs for my quine
12:41:42 <ehird`> "This expression matches nothing into itself."
12:42:00 <ehird`> "This expression matches anything into itself."
12:42:41 <ehird`> you know, my regexp language will probably be really hard to parse (even in itself) and a mammoth task to implement
12:42:55 <ais523> I'm having serious problems trying to implement mine
12:43:09 <ais523> I'm writing the docs first and although they're unfinished, they're already several pages long
12:43:38 <ehird`> I do not think I will bother implementing mine, from the features I have in mind it'd be a project on the level of full-scale open source projects
12:43:57 <ehird`> Maybe if someone offers some help after I write a spec. :-)
12:44:21 <RodgerTheGreat> perhaps you should focus on a simpler proof-of-concept
12:44:37 <ehird`> no, i want my amazingerific expressions in full ;)
12:45:06 <RodgerTheGreat> heh. Or design an esolang that requires this feature in order to achieve turing-completeness.
12:45:45 <ehird`> just make a program input and a regular expression
12:46:00 <ehird`> since they can perform turing complete calculations, voila
12:46:15 <ehird`> the match tree would be the output of the program
12:46:49 <ehird`> in fact you don't even need an input string
12:46:52 <ehird`> (it could just be empty)
12:47:01 <ehird`> since you can assign arbitary values to groups, and run regexps on groups
12:47:02 <ais523> mine can generate output off no input at all, because it has features for inserting text into the input string
12:47:22 <ehird`> ais523: mine can do that but only because you can explicitly modify and generate matches in the match tree
12:47:49 <ais523> in mine, you can write (Hello\, world\!)^ to add Hello, world! to the input string
12:48:04 <ais523> where the ^ 'negates' the preceding group
12:48:13 <ais523> it has many more interesting uses as well
12:48:58 <ehird`> ais523: can yours be used to parse an entire language in one expression?
12:49:03 <ehird`> within reason that is, not using tons of TC-hackery
12:49:13 <ehird`> because from what i have in my head mine could do that very easily and naturally
12:49:18 <ehird`> as in, not a hack a tall
12:49:21 <ehird`> just natural common usage
12:49:33 <ehird`> PARSER constant in a language = XD
12:49:34 <ais523> I have an = command that's not actually necessary, but makes such expressions more readable
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12:50:13 <ehird`> i think mine will have "and" and "or" constructs
12:50:32 <ais523> it depends on what you mean by 'and'
12:50:45 <ehird`> i.e. "if this (X) matches, then this (Y) must too, otherwise there is no match"
12:50:56 <ais523> if you're just checking variables, you write the checks one after the other (possibly with a cut) and you get a short-circuit match
12:51:07 <ehird`> or, "if (X) does not match, but (Y) does, there is a match"
12:51:13 <ais523> Perl6 has a 'two or more matches that must start and end at the same place construct'
12:51:15 <ehird`> and by x and y i mean two groups of some sort
12:51:31 <ais523> as for or, that's just the (a|b) construct that's been in every regex language ever AFAIK
12:52:05 <ehird`> but this could handle more complex constructs
12:52:22 <ehird`> so it makes sense to ditch (a|b) and get the new syntax
12:52:27 <ehird`> actually, the syntax may be the same
12:52:31 <ehird`> but it'll behave different
12:52:35 <ais523> the syntax is the same in my language
12:52:45 <ais523> and it behaves the same way, for esoteric values of 'same'
12:53:23 <ais523> so (a|b) means 'match a, if that fails or there's a fail somewhere later try matching b instead'
12:53:39 <ehird`> &, i think, is a bit more interesting than |
12:53:42 <ais523> if you don't want it to backtrack into the (a|b) group you can write (a|b)!- instead
12:53:52 <ais523> you're right, & is definitely more interesting
12:53:56 <ehird`> with mine you can have different modifiers on a and b
12:54:21 <ais523> obviously that's possible, you just put the modifiers inside the groups in question
12:54:31 <ehird`> i have no idea what the implications are, but or-ing an arbitary, in-output group with a non-arbitary, out-of-output group sounds... interesting
12:54:39 <ehird`> but, let's think about &
12:54:46 <ehird`> what are the implications? i get the feeling it could be very useful
12:54:50 <ehird`> but i don't quite see which
12:54:54 <ehird`> well, let's boil it down
12:55:21 <ehird`> A&B = if A, then B. else, A.
12:55:39 <ehird`> now - what are the implications of that in a regexp language? (Where the "if A" means "if A matches")
12:55:42 <ais523> ehird`: for the or you can just write (a|b^), for instance, which either removes an a from the input string or failing that adds a b
12:56:45 <ais523> for the and you've just defined, that's ab? (or (ab?)? depending on whether you want the not-a situation to succeed or fail)
12:56:59 <ais523> and you can always just cut away any choicepoints that are left behind that you don't want
12:58:16 <ehird`> i'm pretty sure it isn't ab?
12:58:25 <ehird`> if a was true, and b was
12:58:29 <ehird`> only b would be "returned"
12:58:59 <ais523> my regexes don't 'return' things, they just modify the input string and/or group-match memory
12:59:31 <ehird`> "return" means "add to the match tree"
13:00:09 <ais523> then you want (a=x)(b=y)? in my language where x and y are the things to add to the output corresponding to a and b
13:00:09 <ehird`> but, you know what i mean
13:00:36 <ehird`> x -> y -> z, meaning "expr x with input y matches tree z":
13:00:50 <ehird`> (a&b) -> "ab" -> [["b"]]
13:01:42 <ais523> does nope refer to a fail, here?
13:02:02 <ais523> in my language, because returning is explicit, you just don't return anything from a: (a=)(b=y)
13:02:37 <ehird`> i think it means a fail
13:03:11 <ais523> all languages should have some backtracking construct IMO
13:03:29 <ais523> because it makes it much easier to implement backtracking languages, and doesn't affect programs that don't need to use it
13:03:36 <ehird`> (a&b) -> "ab" -> [["b"]]
13:03:36 <ais523> likewise for multithreading
13:03:38 <ehird`> (a&b) -> "ab" -> [["b"]]
13:03:48 <ais523> you just wrote the same thing twice
13:03:49 <ehird`> (a&b) -> "a" -> [["b"]]
13:03:58 <ehird`> (a&b) -> "b" -> [["a"]]
13:04:09 <ehird`> because that is "directly" if A then B else A
13:04:53 <ais523> incidentally, on single characters, you can write that 'ab=ba' in my language as shorthand
13:06:14 <ehird`> i'm just trying to think of a useful way to implement an and construct
13:06:55 <ais523> I think ab is probably the simplest sort of and construct; after all, both a and b have to match for ab to match
13:07:13 <ais523> that sort of and has been around for ages, and nearly all regexes use it
13:07:20 <ais523> sort of like and in Prolog
13:07:27 <ais523> it's the 'and then' operator
13:11:16 <ehird`> in your programming language of choice, does a & b return [a, b] if both a and b are true?
13:11:51 <ais523> in many languages, and just returns true or false, which was more the idea I was getting at
13:12:03 <ais523> or in backtracking languages, succeed/fail
13:12:25 <ais523> the 'and then' is clearly a separate operator from perl's and
13:12:39 <ehird`> "many languages" suck ;)
13:12:54 <ehird`> ok, let's take a lowest-common-denominator language
13:13:06 <ehird`> one that follows most patterns intuitively, but isn't very interesting : python
13:13:30 <ehird`> in just about every language i have used (that i didn't hate) that happened
13:13:59 <ais523> I agree that all the best languages seem to implement it like that, apart from C-based languages (some of which are also good)
13:14:03 <ehird`> <ehird`> (a&b) -> "ab" -> [["b"]]
13:14:03 <ehird`> <ehird`> (a&b) -> "b" -> nope
13:14:03 <ehird`> <ehird`> (a&b) -> "a" -> nope
13:14:09 <ehird`> seems to be a reasonable construct
13:14:24 <ais523> but in my language, nothing returns anything unless a return value is guaranteed
13:14:25 <ehird`> but the question is, is it useful like that? what is a reasonable usecase?
13:14:33 <ehird`> or is there another way to implement it that makes it more useful?
13:14:42 <SimonRC> actually, in C, 1 && 2 == 2
13:14:54 <ais523> && always returns 0 or 1
13:15:18 <ais523> you can write 1?2:0 for a Perl-style and (where the 0 is a constant)
13:15:49 <ais523> (because it always does it bitwise)
13:15:52 <ehird`> basic as an example? :P
13:16:09 <ehird`> anyway by 1 and 2 i didn't neccessarily mean 1 and 2 because of bitwise-ness
13:16:24 <ehird`> i just meant two things that have the truth-value of "true" but are not "true" themselves
13:17:00 <ais523> I only picked BASIC because it did something different from the other languages
13:17:26 <ais523> and I was demonstrating that for values other than true or false, what it did didn't just jump to set values nor take the second value
13:18:07 <ehird`> so i guess we're all stuck on trying to work out a use for my (a&b) semantics? :)
13:18:36 <ais523> imagine a BASIC interpreter written in regexes
13:19:00 <ais523> PRINT 6 is equivalent to (PRINT&&6) with an ehird`-style AND
13:19:06 <ehird`> lisp interpreter written with regexes?
13:19:14 <ehird`> and no, ais523, it is not
13:19:26 <ehird`> (a&b) with "ab" as input >produces [["b"]]<
13:19:44 <ehird`> whereas (ab) with "ab" as input produces [["a", "b"]]
13:19:56 <ais523> I assumed you were piping the output to a console that was flattening
13:20:03 <ais523> you wouldn't want to print the PRINT as well as the 6
13:20:12 <ais523> so it's just the 6 that's being printed
13:20:55 <ehird`> you are saying that PRINT 6 (basic code) is (PRINT&&6) in mine?
13:21:33 <ais523> I'm saying that the ehird`-regexp (PRINT&&.*) will output just what's after the PRINT if fed PRINT 6 as input
13:21:55 <ehird`> (PRINT&&a) -> "PRINTa" -> [["a"]]
13:21:55 <ais523> in my language, that's (PRINT.*=.*)
13:22:10 <ais523> because it matches corresponding .s and *s together
13:22:10 <ehird`> (it's &, actually, right now :P)
13:22:21 <ehird`> and that is interesting but it seems like it could be ambigious
13:22:41 <ais523> what does 'that' refer to in your preceding statement?
13:23:04 <ehird`> <ais523> in my language, that's (PRINT.*=.*)
13:23:28 <ehird`> which does the RHS .* refer to
13:23:39 <ais523> that's an error because the two sides don't have the same structure
13:24:06 <ehird`> so, does & seem useful to you at all with my semantics?
13:24:20 <ais523> you could disable one for matching purposes as (PRINT(+.*).*=.*) if you liked, because a group starting with + isn't counted
13:24:22 <ehird`> i am not sure if it could be given better semantics, or if these are good, or if it's even useful either way
13:24:59 <ais523> I think & might be useful, but it should be codable within the language, rather than being a feature of it
13:25:05 <ais523> sort-of like a standard library function
13:26:08 <ehird`> now now this is regexps
13:26:13 <ehird`> let's not get overboard
13:26:24 <ehird`> but try as i might i just can not think of a usecase for &
13:26:29 <ehird`> no matter how intuitively useful it sounds
13:27:04 <ais523> 'and then' is probably a more useful operator, boring as it is
13:27:30 <ehird`> there has to be some obscure & usecase! :<
13:27:39 * ais523 has to go now in order to have a chance of getting lunch before being busy, but will read the end of the conversation in the logs
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13:28:49 <ehird`> who wants to continue this discussion? :P
13:29:30 * oklopol says "penis" and everyone laughs
13:30:09 <oklopol> i can't think of a usecase, and unfortunately i don't have time for that either :<
13:30:20 <oklopol> but ehird`: check out ihope's parser language
13:32:26 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: have you mown your blind sufficiently yet?
14:01:34 <RodgerTheGreat> observe the first two pages of a story I started working on last night:
14:01:35 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1191376302-Cosm1.png
14:01:40 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1191386100-Cosm2.png
14:09:07 <ehird`> very zen ending marker
14:14:16 <RodgerTheGreat> do you like the general concept, though? Are you interested in where things are going?
14:15:34 <ehird`> i think the next frame will involve lots of spam popup-demon-things
14:15:40 <SimonRC> now do 998 more, and you have a webcomic
14:15:44 <ehird`> "Congratulations! You win a free iPod!"
14:22:14 <ehird`> why does that popup use decimal
14:28:21 <ehird`> and not just "Oh, well you have 10 fingers, so I talk using decimal so it's easier for you"
14:28:34 <ehird`> that's on the same level as "Oh, well you use English, so I do the same so it's easier for you"
14:28:39 <ehird`> (that better have an explanation too :P)
14:29:49 <RodgerTheGreat> the english thing only applies to the popup, and it speaks english for a perfectly valid reason. Not everything does or will.
14:30:49 <ehird`> i am very intrigued then
14:30:55 <SimonRC> I wish popups left me alone for 22 years if I am busy
14:31:05 <ehird`> you should put up a site for it, dumped images aren't fun to navigate :P
14:32:02 <ehird`> ... possibly fix the blur on the left side of the page too :P
14:32:36 <ehird`> http://support.novell.com/techcenter/articles/dnd19961103.html this?
14:32:44 <RodgerTheGreat> that's because my scanner isn't technically large enough for my bristol board
14:32:51 <ehird`> a very ugly basic dialect it seems
14:35:32 <SimonRC> this: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1190938723-downsteam.png
14:40:41 <RodgerTheGreat> it's kindof a coding/puzzle game. You write programs to traverse a simulated network, retrieve various files, and get around obstacles, in some cases with code length restrictions or time limits
14:41:07 <RodgerTheGreat> some puzzles may even involve "distributed computing" challenges
14:41:30 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: ah, hacking-like
14:41:48 <ehird`> couldn't you make it more obsucre?
14:41:53 <ehird`> like, an APL/Lisp alike ;)
14:41:59 * SimonRC tries to remembner the name of the popular "virtual hacking" game
14:41:59 <RodgerTheGreat> it's a little abstract, and not intended to be particularly accurate, but it's pretty fun
14:42:11 <RodgerTheGreat> arbitrary code execution, for example, is pretty trivial
14:43:38 <ehird`> i like introversion software
14:43:41 <RodgerTheGreat> Uplink was in no small way an inspiration to this game. I love the concept and execution, but I felt a hacking game with more to do with coding would be even more fun
14:43:56 <RodgerTheGreat> introversion makes some great stuff- have either of you tried DefCon?
14:44:58 <ehird`> darwinia was popular a while back
14:45:25 <RodgerTheGreat> darwinia was breathtakingly beautiful, but I think the gameplay was a little slow-paced
14:45:59 <RodgerTheGreat> plus, they ditched the gesture-driven task manager for a regular menu in the patch. :(
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14:51:17 <RodgerTheGreat> introversion's games are interesting in that you can see they were designed as a bunch of interesting demos that eventually merged together into a game. They also tend to appear very simple and contain a tremendous amount of depth upon further inspection. The commandline on hacked computers in Uplink is an example.
14:51:55 <ehird`> yeah the command-line actually suprised me when i first saw it
14:52:03 <ehird`> i didn't expect that kind of control
14:53:12 <RodgerTheGreat> I was just like "Uh... this can't possibly be that realistic... [cds around and looks at filesystem.] huh. What happens if I delete the OS and tell it to restart? [connection lost.]" and then the machine was dead for the rest of the game!
14:53:34 <RodgerTheGreat> that was kinda my "holy shit this game is awesome" moment right there
14:55:29 <ehird`> it was crazy taht you could remove the logfiles via the command-line
14:55:35 <ehird`> you didn't actually need the log-remover frontend
15:11:09 <SimonRC> I think I am turning into a troll: "{18, 213, 235, 238, 247, 254} <-- allegory about belief systems"
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16:05:01 <RodgerTheGreat> ehird`: yeah, the frontend was just more thorough- as I remember, deleting things via commandline still left log entries that the files had been deleted
16:07:54 <ehird`> remove the log directory
16:08:25 <RodgerTheGreat> will it recreate the dir next time it logs something, or does it stay dead?
16:20:45 <RodgerTheGreat> ah, uplink computers and their fantastic operating system
16:20:53 <ehird`> dies as in doesn't log anything
16:20:57 <ehird`> not dies as in PFFFTKRRRNK
16:21:34 <RodgerTheGreat> if only it wasn't so damn hard to get a commandline for more than a handful of seconds most of the time
16:22:43 <RodgerTheGreat> I've routed through just about every computer on InterNIC, and those bastards can still track me down in no time flat! The best ones to route through are government systems or banks, I've found.
16:22:46 <ehird`> i never actually got on to the storyline, hah
16:23:14 <RodgerTheGreat> me neither. I have way too much fun just playing around, not entirely unlike how I play the Grand Theft Auto series
16:23:31 <ehird`> it's weird, though, i did everything i had to do,
16:23:35 <ehird`> but the email from ARC never came
16:23:48 <ehird`> though if i were to play the storyline
16:23:55 <ehird`> i would so fscking release that virus all over the net :D
16:24:04 <ehird`> you get to see it destroy every connected computer through red dots ;)
16:24:57 <RodgerTheGreat> - crack a bank. Steal shit-tons of money and put it in your Uplink accounts. The banks will immediately begin a slow trace that will ruin your shit when it gets to you. Route through a bunch of targets, do a legit series of transactions between several accounts to get your money laundered, and then store it in an account you remember. Proceed to cover your tracks like hell.
16:25:12 <RodgerTheGreat> then, the original bank will catch you, and you'll lose your uplink account
16:25:37 <RodgerTheGreat> create a new account, connect to the bank you stashed your money in, and make a withdrawl
16:25:48 <ehird`> wow, it carries across acounts?
16:25:54 <RodgerTheGreat> bing-bam-kaching, buy all your tools and a better gateway and you're set
16:26:55 <RodgerTheGreat> Uplink is the *only* game where I've ever seen anything close to that
16:27:32 <RodgerTheGreat> you can also sometimes store your hacking utilities on machines you crack, but it needs to be something low security like InterNIC or the Uplink Test Server.
16:28:19 <RodgerTheGreat> I often stash code on the test server if I don't have enough storage for all my utilities, and then I can retrieve them later
16:28:25 <ehird`> its amazing how open Introversion are
16:28:34 <ehird`> the dev CD for uplink, the fact that they support linux, windows and os x
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16:29:42 <ehird`> yes -- but on the disk, there is ALL THREE
16:29:53 <ehird`> one purchase, you have the version for each OS, right there
16:30:00 <ehird`> no other game company that i know does that
16:30:32 <RodgerTheGreat> Blizzard does 2/3, but yeah. Introversion kicks so much ass.
16:30:50 * Sgeo doesn't like buying stuff
16:30:50 <RodgerTheGreat> They make games so utterly unlike anything else... it's really inspiring
16:31:18 <SimonRC> I should direct my cash in their direction
16:31:38 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm thinking about buying Defcon- the demo was amazing
16:32:15 <ehird`> Sgeo: this is why people complain about capitalism... lazy people.
16:33:06 <ehird`> i'm not going to say "stop" to anyone who pirates games or anything... but if it's an indie developer, you really owe it to them
16:33:10 <RodgerTheGreat> Introversion makes wonderful things, and their games are inexpensive. They deserve money.
16:34:14 <RodgerTheGreat> I know a bunch of assholes that'll buy a legit copy of Halo and turn around and pirate a copy of Uplink. It makes me sick. Bungie/MS don't feel it when their shitty games are pirated, but independent developers get the screw
16:35:58 <ehird`> its really quite a difficult subject...
16:36:19 <ehird`> there is a car cloning machine which you can simply point at a car from any range, and you immediately get your own. the cloner is free.
16:36:24 <ehird`> yet, car companies --big and small-- still sell cars.
16:36:34 <ehird`> is it "stealing" to use the cloner device on a car?
16:37:04 <RodgerTheGreat> Stealing from the company that invested time and money to design the car, perhaps
16:37:31 <RodgerTheGreat> but the car analogy is really terrible for software discussions
16:38:30 <ehird`> replace car with anything you want
16:38:58 <RodgerTheGreat> I think the main reason most people pirate software is the bastard self-important sense of entitlement everyone seems to have these days. "I pirate music because I can't afford it". THEN DON'T LISTEN TO MUSIC, YOU BASTARD- IT'S A LUXURY, NOT A NECESSITY! YOU DO NOT DESERVE FREE MUSIC!
16:39:38 * ehird` pirates music because he is an asshole, but agrees in principle ;)
16:39:39 <RodgerTheGreat> nobody *deserves* free anything on the internet, it's just what they've become accustomed to.
16:40:17 <RodgerTheGreat> god forbid anyone try to profit from their own creative energies and labor if they so choose
16:41:28 <ehird`> i do make a point to buy albums i like when i get the chance
16:41:43 <RodgerTheGreat> It pisses me off tremendously when people steal music, games and software programs, justifying their actions by saying they can't afford to buy them.
16:41:46 <ehird`> if I pirate an album, really like it, then if I see it for a reasonable price I will buy it
16:42:53 <RodgerTheGreat> I pay for my music via iTunes, and if I don't feel like paying money for music, I turn to one of the many sources of genuinely free sources of music on the internet, like creative commons stuff and the modarchive
16:43:12 <ehird`> I do not buy iTunes music because I do not enjoy DRM.
16:43:36 <ehird`> I use the iTunes player, though, because 1. it's good 2. it can play gaplessly 3. it's the only decent one for OS X
16:43:57 * GregorR wonders if anybody cares at all about his awesome MISC environment :P
16:44:22 <RodgerTheGreat> ehird`: For an additional fee, you can buy DRM-free music on iTunes.
16:44:32 <ehird`> ... Only for some albums.
16:44:41 <ehird`> Specifically, EMI albums.
16:44:50 <RodgerTheGreat> it's only for some record labels, but more often than not I can buy what I want that way
16:44:57 <GregorR> "Recorded in 1902, this album is now out of copyright!"
16:45:40 <GregorR> Pff, that's not an accurate assessment, they had wax cylinders <1900
16:45:48 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: I do not listen to many mainstream bands, the (3?) labels participating are all major labels.
16:49:17 <GregorR> RodgerTheGreat: Also, it could be a piano roll :)
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17:03:53 <GregorR> I justify my action ... my justification is "fuck you I'm taking this"
17:04:04 <ehird`> we're a bunch of commies! ;)
17:08:16 * GregorR actually has no illegal music :P
17:08:45 <puzzlet_> like, music where outlaws sing about killing people?
17:08:57 <GregorR> That's perfectly legal music.
17:09:04 <ehird`> no, music whose tonal structure embeds the HD key
17:10:25 * GregorR wonders if anybody cares at all about his awesome MISC environment :P
17:12:35 <ehird`> also... who's on windows? http://www.gamersquarter.com/tennisfortwo/ tennis for two simulator with internet play!
17:12:43 <ehird`> i'll put up a server if anyone wants
17:13:17 <GregorR> I made an ASM language for MISC, and implemented basic math primitives with C preproc defines, so now writing MISC code is aaaaaaaaalmost like any other RISC.
17:13:24 <GregorR> The advantage? None! But it's amusing :P
17:13:44 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: i'm not on here for long :P
17:29:19 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/miscdocs/
17:39:09 <Sgeo> GregorR, being amusing is an advantage >.>
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17:43:42 <GregorR> Well, another advantage is that it's not totally unrealistic to imagine a GCC backend.
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17:44:19 <GregorR> Unlike BF, which is not only registerless but exceedingly register-emulation-unfriendly :P
17:44:54 <GregorR> In MISC, I just reserved 0xFFFExxxx and called a few of them registers.
17:47:30 <GregorR> Subtract and branch if negative.
17:47:38 <GregorR> See http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/MISC
17:47:48 <SimonRC> and that needs 4 arguments how?
17:48:38 <GregorR> Arithmetic destination, source 1, source 2, branch target
17:48:54 <GregorR> It's dest = src1 - src2, not a = a - b
17:49:22 <GregorR> Admittedly, MISC is pretty lavish for an OISC ;)
17:52:13 <SimonRC> the best one I have seen is the one with "reverse subtract and skip if negative", I think
17:52:32 <SimonRC> you have to do jumps by modifying the IP
17:53:12 <GregorR> The IP isn't memory-mapped in MISC.
17:53:27 <GregorR> You do conditional jumps by writing to the branch target of the next instruction.
17:53:41 <SimonRC> hey! subskin is classified as a tarpit!
17:53:59 <SimonRC> GregorR: the pipeline-engineers are going to love that
17:54:27 <GregorR> I like MISC independent of esotericity - in all seriousness, this could be implemented with a processor smaller than the head of a pin, and is fully TC (within the limits of bounded memory)
17:57:20 <SimonRC> GregorR: do you want to get Dugg?
17:57:56 <SimonRC> Ha ChooseMyHat been dugg yet?
17:58:08 <GregorR> Maybe THAT'S why I got 75 votes yesterday!
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18:08:49 <GregorR> Then why DID I get 75 votes yesterday X-D
18:09:10 <SimonRC> it is being passed around, maybe
18:09:26 <GregorR> But it was just for that /one day/.
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18:31:47 <GregorR> Somebody used a botnet, maybe.
18:31:53 <GregorR> But it seems like a waste of a botnet ;P
18:32:06 <GregorR> It's a DUOS - Distributed Use of Service
18:35:35 <GregorR> It's against my principles.
18:35:55 <GregorR> Mainly, the principle of using people who aren't me to filter digg for me :P
18:37:24 <GregorR> Why don't /you/ digg it :P
18:38:26 <GregorR> It's against my principles.
18:38:36 <GregorR> Mainly, the principle of using people who aren't me to filter reddit for me :P
18:38:43 <GregorR> Why don't /you/ reddit it :P
18:39:33 <ehird`> i might just reddit it
18:39:44 <ehird`> i have 1 karma thus ensuring nobody will vote it up
18:41:34 <GregorR> Reddit has an infinitely obscure algorithm for devaluating the submissions of people who submit too much.
18:41:57 <GregorR> Correct me if I'm wrong, that's entirely heresay :P
18:42:16 <GregorR> Feel free to correct my spelling of hearsay if it's wrong as well :P
18:42:56 <ehird`> it goes up when more people vote you up
18:43:01 <ehird`> it is, of course, highly teasured
18:43:13 <GregorR> I didn't say that positive karma = too many submissions
18:43:21 <ehird`> the joke is that people will instinctively downvote anyone with a low karma, which is of course false
18:46:14 <GregorR> If somebody with negative karma downvotes you, does that increase your karma? :P
18:51:49 <GregorR> That would be interesting. There would be huge amounts of churn as karmas flew around zero, and then random people would find themselves with high enough karma that they could really start building it up :P
18:51:58 <GregorR> I'll call it the "ridiculously terrible karma system" :P
18:52:29 <RodgerTheGreat> positive karma + modup = karma boost. negative karma + moddown = smaller karma boost?
18:54:44 <ehird`> that's kinda stupid though
18:55:02 * ehird` has toyed with a hypothetical link site in the past
18:55:30 <ehird`> it's kind of like a blend between the selectivity and summaries of slashdot (but shorter and to-the-point), the efficiency of reddit, and some parts from digg
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19:13:45 <GregorR> I don't suppose anybody has actual /comments/ on my MISC syntax?
19:15:35 <GregorR> Is that because it's extremely perfect?
19:18:18 <oklopol> GregorR: i'm just assuming it's perfect
19:18:39 <oklopol> wanna link it once again? ;)
19:19:04 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/miscdocs/
19:19:19 <GregorR> On the one hand, it's legit to assume anything I wrote is perfect, but on the other hand I could use comments.
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19:25:23 <oklopol> seems nice, although i don't have time to have a close look
19:25:32 <oklopol> can i have an interpreter for that or smth?
19:25:56 <oklopol> although i didn't play much with that urinal thing once you said you were sure it's pretty useless
19:26:01 <GregorR> oklopol: Depends on whether you A) have a D+Tango compiler or B) will take a binary.
19:26:07 <oklopol> bsmntbom1dood: touch her and tell us how it felt
19:26:18 <GregorR> oklopol: The Order of Urinals is not, as it turns out, Turing Complete :(
19:26:52 <GregorR> oklopol: No, I din't write a proof per se, I just dug myself into a corner.
19:26:59 <oklopol> bsmntbom1dood: touched, but won't tell? :<
19:27:19 <oklopol> GregorR: not sure what that means :|
19:27:27 <oklopol> i think i made a proof of some sort myself
19:28:25 <GregorR> bsmntbom1dood: BE MORE PATHETIC
19:28:41 <ehird`> you're on the internet, we make jokes about patheticness
19:30:00 <GregorR> oklopol: http://www.codu.org/misc/ <-- includes binaries for GNU/Linux
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19:32:19 <oklopol> thanks, i'll try and find a use for that :P
19:32:19 -!- bsmntbom1dood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
19:33:04 <oklopol> i wasn't being sarcastic in any way :)
19:33:22 <oklopol> omg, there's no one here with me
19:34:46 <GregorR> Hahahahah, you're even more pathetic than I thought X-D
19:35:10 <GregorR> Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh kay, escaping this conversation. *fwoom*
19:37:44 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: what's the purpose of that room?
19:38:00 <oklopol> are you listening to the teacher or does there just happen to be a teacher in the room?
19:38:04 <GregorR> I'm sitting in a cubicle. I'm alone in my cubicle. It's extremely exciting.
19:38:35 <oklopol> i'm sitting in my armchair, eating chicken
19:39:01 <GregorR> (oklopol named his dog "chicken")
19:39:18 <oklopol> yeah, indeed that's funnier if you know that
19:39:46 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: so you're studying now?
19:39:59 <ehird`> i am now going to get a chicken
19:40:16 <ehird`> and claim to be eating dog
19:40:40 <GregorR> I'm going to get a chicken and name it "Filipino child"
19:41:54 <ehird`> i'm going to get a PC and name it "mac"
19:43:17 <oklopol> i love it how every joke must be exhausted until the original subject (though there wasn't one this time) gets forgotten
19:43:58 <oklopol> well, actually not sure if that's ever happened, but you'd think
19:44:05 <ehird`> 1st Law of IRCodynamics: Every conversation approaches maximum penis-reference.
19:44:26 <GregorR> I don't penis that actually happens.
19:44:29 <GregorR> I penis that's just a penis.
19:44:32 <oklopol> interesting turn! my mom was here for a few seconds
19:44:57 <ehird`> Let's test these laws.
19:45:07 <ehird`> I like chicken! Which chicken, the species or the dog? You decide!
19:45:11 <GregorR> Penis are penis other penis?
19:53:34 <GregorR> Heh, I just realized that my MISC #define will go into an infinite loop if you divide by zero :P
19:54:35 <GregorR> Just thrust your face into 'em and see what she does.
19:56:36 <GregorR> DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT
19:56:47 * GregorR leaves for lunch while you get expelled.
20:14:44 <oklopol> i should make a game maker program with an actually *good* scripting language
20:15:06 <oklopol> i kinda sucks when the language is something like actionscript that doesn't allow *anything* to made easily
20:17:02 <oklopol> to be honest i haven't really checked out other than flash, game maker and games factory, and flash isn't really made especially for games
20:26:38 <ehird`> although, it's not the same
20:26:41 <ehird`> but game making programs suck
20:27:12 <oklopol> you could actually make a language with game programming in mind
20:27:40 <oklopol> http://dagobah.biz/flash/linegame.swf
20:28:10 <oklopol> that should be like 10 lines max
20:31:04 <oklopol> (the movements of the worm i mean)
20:31:15 <oklopol> might be a bit hard to get the levels in 10 lines :P
20:31:38 <ehird`> that does not look 10 lines ;P
20:31:45 <ehird`> i am interested in game-oriented stuff
20:31:51 <ehird`> maybe i should kind of pack this into an experimental language
20:32:03 <ehird`> my turing complete regex-alikes which i discussed with oerjan earlier
20:32:11 <ehird`> graphics-oriented stuff like game stuff
20:32:23 <ehird`> today in the GMT sense, its 20:40 here
20:33:35 <oklopol> unless you mean ais, i don't have the logs i guess :<
20:34:08 <oklopol> you had a long talk with ais, but you also did with oerjan?
20:34:12 <ehird`> it started ais, then oerjan cut in
20:34:39 <ehird`> look at the ircbrowse.com logs
20:35:08 <ehird`> also, that line game is impossible
20:35:31 <oklopol> i'm doing the hardest level with keyboard
20:35:45 <oklopol> i get to the second rotating thingie
20:35:56 <ehird`> i did 20 seconds on "a"
20:37:04 <oklopol> i can't find it in the logs either.
20:37:33 <oklopol> also, i do have a lot over 24h of logs showing here, so...
20:37:55 <oklopol> anyways, i guess that's beside the point
20:38:10 <ehird`> it is really quite interesting
20:38:10 <oklopol> i just read everything oerjan has said
20:38:25 <ehird`> i discussed my own ideas too
20:39:13 <oklopol> i've read the logs, of course
20:39:24 <oklopol> but really, show me oerjan, this is getting scary :P
20:41:21 <oklopol> but... i've read your and ais523's conversation :<
20:41:54 <oklopol> also, i did search for "rexexp", twice, and scrolled the whole conversation.
20:42:17 <oklopol> yeah, pretty great, ain't it
20:42:56 <ehird`> on the subject of flash games
20:42:57 <ehird`> http://dagobah.biz/flash/Cursor_Invisible.swf
20:45:10 <ehird`> i always get like one pixel off after 76
20:45:26 <GregorR> ehird`: That game is extremely easy on a tablet PC :P
20:47:43 <ehird`> rrrrthats5rs.com <-- most deliberately confusing domain name ever
20:47:44 <oklopol> hmm... is there something weird @ line games?
20:47:56 <GregorR> <ehird`> also, that line game is impossible
20:48:11 <ehird`> tnhe line game oklopol linked to
20:48:17 <oklopol> http://dagobah.biz/flash/linegame.swf
20:48:26 <GregorR> Oh. Heh, missed the URL 8-X
20:49:45 <GregorR> Wow, that line game is extremely difficult.
20:50:03 <ehird`> aaaand another: http://dagobah.biz/flash/Particles.swf
20:50:12 <ehird`> do not hold up all the time
20:50:21 <oklopol> never slow! always to the MAX
20:50:21 <GregorR> I thought there was a time limit?
20:50:41 <oklopol> but you can beat your time of course
20:55:11 <oklopol> how the fuck do ppl get under 9 @ a...
20:55:51 <ehird`> http://dagobah.biz/flash/Smash2_final.swf crazy breakout game
20:57:32 <ehird`> (hint: you can go up and down, it's kind of like tennis)
21:04:34 <ehird`> http://dagobah.biz/flash/jeu_chiant.swf Is it just me or is this impossibl;e
21:10:57 <oklopol> how many seconds do you get?
21:12:27 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/evilpong/ < man this game rocks
21:14:08 <oklopol> i don't have a big enough resolution
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21:21:40 <oklopol> GregorR: that's pretty amazing
21:22:35 <oklopol> yeah, 2 hours of flash games again, that was point-free :)
21:22:43 <oklopol> ...and play some more i guess
21:22:51 <GregorR> oklopol: EVIL Pong! isn't a flash game, it's all JS :)
21:24:09 <oklopol> i'm still wondering where the conversation with oerjan was...
21:32:53 <ehird`> GregorR: out of curiosity
21:33:07 <ehird`> why the overblown home page for a really simple JS game that will have taken about 15 minutes to make? :-)
21:35:06 <GregorR> Because it's an AWESOME simple JS game that would have taken about 15 minutes to make.
21:36:50 <oklopol> how many points did you get?
21:36:54 <GregorR> It is when you go past the first five points.
21:52:56 <ehird`> http://dagobah.biz/flash/Keep_an_Idiot_Busy.swf God damnit! I can't stop!
21:54:54 <ehird`> when you click one it turns to 2 more times
21:56:17 <GregorR> Seems like another game that would be great on a tablet PC X-P
21:56:44 <ehird`> tell me whats at the end
21:58:47 <ehird`> it just tells you that you just have too much time on your hands
22:01:44 <ehird`> so who thinks this "experimental language" is a good idea
22:02:07 <ehird`> right now, it'd have as unique things: that amazing, warped TC regexp language AND many graphical features useful for games (re: oklopol)
22:02:09 <ehird`> not just for games of course
22:02:15 <ehird`> but plenty of constructs that make them easy
22:02:33 <GregorR> Experimental as in not designed to be esoteric, presumably?
22:05:36 <ehird`> esoterica will follow naturally when you have a regexp language as insane and simple graphics+input controls built right in#
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00:21:36 <oklopol> i guess it was that finnish clip i did for you
00:21:47 <oklopol> lament: i'm fairly sure that's the term
00:22:07 <oklopol> we should have an esoteric orgy sometime
00:22:47 <lament> i don't want to participate in any orgy with male to female ratio higher than 50%
00:25:07 <oklopol> okay, lament's out, i'm assuming everyone else is with?
00:25:34 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: if you have the clip, do record it
00:25:57 <oklopol> the one with me saying something
00:26:58 <oklopol> i said something about a chainsaw
00:27:18 <bsmntbombdood> fuck me gently with a chainsaw. i like the way the blades feel on my genitals
00:29:31 <oklopol> thazzit, motto for the orgy
00:30:09 <oklopol> well yeah, but say that in finnish :D
00:30:16 * oerjan thinks he's out too at this point :D
00:30:41 <bsmntbombdood> oerjan: i promise i'll keep the chainsaw away from your genitals
00:32:47 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: in finnish, please!
00:34:00 <oklopol> ...and that's why i wanna hear you pronounce it of course
00:34:07 <oklopol> though might be too hard to even try :P
00:34:28 <oklopol> i thought you had the clip of me saying it
00:34:29 <oerjan> yksi kaksi kolme koskenkorva perkele
00:35:41 <oklopol> that was one lame-ass translation
00:35:58 <oerjan> fuck? i thought it was satan. a swearword anyhow.
00:36:33 <oklopol> well, it can mean satan, but satan isn't a curseword...
00:37:09 <oklopol> actually, it was a finnish god (err... or a synonym for thor perhaps), but it was later thought to mean "satan", since it was a pagan god
00:37:44 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: sure, but you can't pronounce it right from that, since finnish has a different (better) writing system
00:38:52 <oerjan> i didn't think the finnish gods were identified with the norse ones, but i wouldn't really know
00:40:32 <oklopol> well, all i know is perkele was a pagan god of some sorts, the god of thunder i guess (like thor, no?)
00:40:38 <oklopol> i don't know anything about history
00:41:36 <oklopol> wait, my parents are here for some reason, and one of them is using the bathroom, so i'm trying to be silent :DSDSD
00:41:56 <oklopol> so my mom doesn't get mad!
00:43:04 <oklopol> heh, you pronounced it as if it was english, as i assumed you would :P
00:43:25 <bsmntbombdood> considering english is the only language i know...
00:43:27 <oklopol> "prkeli" is what you pronounced "perkele" as
00:43:43 <oklopol> yeah, that's why i thought an example might be better :P
00:43:58 <oklopol> and i made that clip for just that purpose
00:44:55 <oklopol> i can make the "correct" one and send it? :)
00:45:16 <oklopol> i can't judge you by that since you can have absolutely no idea how to pronounce that
00:47:44 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/r/perkele.wav
00:48:50 <oklopol> also, k, p and t aren't aspirated, try to remember that
00:51:46 <oerjan> he is in a different timezone you know.
00:51:56 <oerjan> probably time dilation, or something.
00:52:02 <oklopol> don't you know anything about physics, bsmntbombdood
00:52:36 <oerjan> that's also why he can talk so much more than the rest of us.
00:54:10 <oklopol> it seems i speak twice as much as others, on average
00:54:32 <oklopol> i've heard that's a sign of stupidity
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01:14:12 <GregorR> [re: orgy :P] I believe that an orgy of this channel would have a male-female ratio of about infinity%
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01:14:57 <lament> GregorR: yes, since any females around are rather unlikely to participate
01:15:05 <lament> GregorR: in fact, in the end it will probably be just oklopol :)
01:15:27 <GregorR> Well, add one female and this gay orgy becomes a gang-bang, and that's just not fair.
01:18:12 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure bsmntbombdood would join :)
01:19:04 <oklopol> is it still qualified as an orgy with 2 ppl? :|
01:19:11 * oerjan tries to find a link for that old joke but gets only porn links
01:19:29 <oklopol> ok, now i have 4 hours, and i already postponed my alarm...
01:19:30 <GregorR> If you find porn links to two-person orgies, you've got your answer :P
01:19:48 <bsmntbombdood> i think there's only one female that's ever been in this channel
01:20:19 <oerjan> and i also think she said she was lesbian
01:22:00 <oklopol> there can be many reasons for saying one is lesbian, of course
01:22:36 <oklopol> except of course, i guess any stalker-type will find that even more exciting
01:23:26 <oklopol> asdasdasdasdasd can the effects of caffeine be removed somehow? :<
01:23:32 <oerjan> well, given that you probably need pretty low intelligence to stalk in the first place...
01:24:00 <oerjan> (not necessarily the IQ kind of intelligence)
01:24:38 <oerjan> oklopol: you need to drink klatchian liquor, iirc
01:24:45 <oklopol> i've never claimed to be intelligent!
01:25:30 <oerjan> "Jag r intelligent." "Inte jag heller!"
01:25:39 <oerjan> more like non-existent
01:25:52 <oerjan> (it's from the Discworld series)
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01:26:10 <oklopol> oerjan: what's the point of that joke?
01:26:20 <oklopol> i do understand the actual meaning, but don't get it :D
01:26:47 <oerjan> oklopol: the second person doesn't know intelligent is one word
01:27:08 <oklopol> so, parses as jag r inte ligent?
01:27:32 <oerjan> it's the one swedish joke the swedish cannot properly turn around on us norwegians.
01:27:50 <oklopol> hmph, wish i knew norwegian...
01:28:39 <oklopol> i had no idea about "heller" :P
01:29:00 <oklopol> those might well be the only norwegian words i know
01:29:03 <oerjan> i am not quite sure "heller" is right in swedish myself
01:29:30 <oklopol> although now that you said that, i'm beginning to doubt it
01:30:36 <oerjan> i suspect it should be "hellre"
01:31:10 <oklopol> jag skulle hellre ta en appel n min mamma
01:31:33 <oerjan> in norwegian, heller is both
01:31:37 <oklopol> i'm *pretty* sure about that
01:31:58 <oerjan> is that a joke too? :)
01:32:06 <oklopol> it was a random sentence :D
01:32:26 <oklopol> it seems i stumbled upon an ambigous sentence.
01:32:53 <oklopol> but, given that i actually meant i'd rather eat an apple, than eat my mother, i certainly didn't get it myself.
01:33:36 * oerjan must never underestimate oklopol's sickness
01:33:55 <oerjan> btw google seems to agree with "inte jag heller"
01:34:41 <oklopol> i can't say anything sick in swedish, too little vocabulary :<
01:35:02 <oerjan> and is completely inconclusive on "jag vil heller" vs. "jag vil hellre"
01:35:07 <oklopol> actualy, i can't really say anything
01:35:36 <oerjan> jag skulle hellre wins
01:35:45 <lament> all i know in swedish is "i want to love russian girls"
01:35:55 <oklopol> hmm... try saying it in english, oerjan :)
01:36:21 <oerjan> heller = either, hellre = rather iiuc
01:37:17 <oerjan> i.e "jag skulle hellre" wins vs. "jag skulle heller"
01:37:18 <oklopol> sorry, i lack both kinds of intelligense.
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01:38:24 <oklopol> "jag vil heller" and "jag vil hellre" might be inconclusive because both are pretty rare in swedish
01:38:41 <oklopol> hard to find a usage-case for latter, and i think first doesn't have one
01:38:53 * oklopol hopes no one swedish appears...
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01:41:37 <bsmntbombdood> i has carbonated malt barley beverage flavored with hops!
01:42:00 <oklopol> is that fancy talk for beer?
01:42:39 <oerjan> malt, barley, hops, water
01:43:14 <oerjan> malt is from barley isn't it
01:44:03 <oerjan> in some places, those were the only four ingredients allowed in beer
01:44:07 <oklopol> hehe, we once made beer with a few friends in their basement xD
01:44:40 <lament> water, yeast, barley, hops and LSD
01:45:22 <oerjan> that law was repealed in Germany 1987, Norway 1994
01:45:31 <oerjan> (http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%98l)
01:46:44 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinheitsgebot
01:49:04 <oklopol> i think it was about one cent
01:50:00 <oklopol> i may be wrong, i just remember german mark was about 6 finnish marks, and that euro/mark = 5.94573
01:50:25 <lament> so what else do they put in beer these days?
01:51:23 <oerjan> 1 Mark = 100 Pfennigs from 1873 - 2001
01:51:53 <oerjan> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfennig)
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01:54:03 <oklopol> there is a past though, so i guess you can ask that
01:54:31 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: just follow the wikipedia links
01:55:02 <oerjan> also, there was an official conversion from Mark to Euro
01:56:34 <oerjan> which oklopol mentioned
02:00:01 <GregorR> Yay, the audio on my olde tablet works ^^
02:19:12 <oerjan> clearly, this would be what the ancient egyptians said after getting their tablets to work.
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04:26:26 <GregorR> I have a hardware choroflam 8-D
04:40:59 <pikhq> Interesting diety.
04:46:53 <GregorR> Probably Japanese *shrugs*
04:47:35 <pikhq> What, the Japanese bukakke god?
04:48:08 <pikhq> No. . . But they do now.
04:48:34 <pikhq> Their mythology is somewhat flexible. :p
04:48:57 <pikhq> Sorry, that Japanese is wrong.
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10:10:19 <oklopol> i think i have to get something really esoteric for an alarm clock, i'm not sure missing every other test is a good thing
10:10:48 <oklopol> would be nice to get nails to stick out of the bed or something
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11:17:19 <ehird`> nobody discussed TC-regexps overniht
11:28:09 <oklopol> i've made 2 tc regex systems
11:28:47 <oklopol> hmm... actually just one was tc methinks, but anyways, old news :)
11:29:03 <oklopol> asd mathematics is the real brainfuck
11:56:05 <ehird`> parsing entire languages with one expression is reasonable in it
11:56:15 <ehird`> it can generate a sensible parse tree too, fit to how you want it
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12:55:41 <wooby> anyone messed with exact cover and the dancing links approach?
12:58:31 <oklopol> but i mean, the general concept has already gotten enough thought, so i think you can only arouse further interest via a spec
12:58:49 <oklopol> ehird`: what you last said, obviously
12:59:08 <oklopol> an hour is a very reasonable delay!
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13:29:12 <pikhq> ehird`: If it's Turing complete, it isn't just regex. ;)
13:29:22 <ehird`> regexp meaning 'regexp-alike' :p
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14:42:54 <yetifoot> so i've written a few brainfuck compilers, and interpreters, but what i'm considering is a BASIC 2 brainfuck compiler, has anyone ever attempted something like that before?
14:49:59 <RodgerTheGreat> writing macrolanguage compilers for BF is a pretty fun exercise, though. You can learn a hell of a lot.
14:50:42 <yetifoot> cool, i'll check that out. I'm thinking if i do traditional basic, it will be a bit less hassle, as i will only need to worry about global vars A-Z and not worry about scopes/procs/etc
14:51:54 <RodgerTheGreat> sounds like fun- you'll definitely be in for a challenge
14:52:32 <yetifoot> i just wrote a tinybasic compiler the other day, but that was pretty easy, just ran interpreted, or made x86 asm
14:52:42 <RodgerTheGreat> line numbers and gotos may be the most challenging aspect
14:54:21 <RodgerTheGreat> you might end up structuring the compiled program like a huge case...select structure, with a block for each "line"
14:54:50 <yetifoot> for tinybasic one of the biggest challenges i had was that GOTO and GOSUB can take an expression, like computed gotos, so GOTO A*10 is valid, that's easy enough interpreted, but i never did finish that for compiled
14:55:20 <RodgerTheGreat> tricky stuff, but it's one of the most powerful features of the language
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17:30:47 <SimonRC> und3f: is that a spam subject line?
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18:50:24 <ehird`> revelation: all IM clients suck
18:54:32 <ehird`> revelation: all IRC clients suck
18:56:25 <ehird`> revelation: irssi is pretty sucky too
19:05:36 <oklopol> oh, "shuffle on", long time since i listened to sk
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20:10:02 <ehird`> sorry for all this spammity
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20:33:42 <lament> ehird`: did you achieve whatever it is you wanted to achieve?
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21:38:33 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: i think 1337 should be the new standard for away names
21:38:57 <ehird`> "3h!|>d" = "OH HE'S AWAY"
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22:51:28 <ehird`> you're a server of some sort!
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12:34:06 <Tritonio> ehird`, am i stupid or what? ;-)
12:34:40 <Tritonio> you cannot imagine how angry i got with myself.....
12:34:41 <ehird`> why are you talking about things yesterday today! you confuse me! :p
12:34:48 <ehird`> Did you actually run that?
12:35:01 <Tritonio> yeap.... late night stupidness
12:35:15 <ehird`> So uh... it WAS a toy box with no data on right...? <_<
12:35:28 <ehird`> (alternatively: "Well, of course you keep backups ... right? >_>")
12:35:41 <ehird`> oh, you didn't run it as root
12:35:45 <ehird`> at least be thankful for that :P
12:35:57 <Tritonio> but all programs and data are here
12:36:15 <ehird`> haha, i just assumed everyone would know what that did
12:36:21 <Tritonio> it's just that i i didn't thing that there is an EXEC command
12:36:50 <Tritonio> i knew what it does.... i just pressed enter before i realized it
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12:37:01 <ehird`> haha, "exec ..." replaces the current process with ...
12:37:44 <Tritonio> anyway... but i am so bored to make gedit the editor it was.... I have to make all the sortcuts again...
12:38:07 <Tritonio> oh btw do you know how to make ubuntu stop viewing the drives on the desktop?
12:38:17 <Tritonio> i don't remember how i did it....
12:43:29 <ehird`> hoo, i found out who cracked into 'ehird'
12:43:45 <ehird`> or at least, irssi informed me that it was registered to a certain 'test.conf bot', and gave me an email!
12:43:53 <ehird`> so i've sent off an email asking for either my nick back or an explanation
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12:48:54 <ehird`> 'ehird' was cracked a while back
12:48:58 <ehird`> why do you think i use ehird`?
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14:34:22 <ehird`> wow, i totally don't get how I made this work ages ago:
14:34:34 <ehird`> fib<-{a<-0 b<-c<-10.<={c<-a+b a<-b b<-c}c}
14:34:48 <ehird`> fib<-{=0=>0->=1=>1->$(-1)+$(-2)}
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19:36:19 <ehird`> lots of interesting discussion today...
19:44:09 <oklopol> i don't like using drugs for good
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19:48:34 <bsmntbombdood> perhaps acetylsalicylic acid or iso-butyl-propanoic-phenolic acid
19:54:13 <oklopol> ehird`: btw, way to pown Tritonio ;)
19:55:00 <Tritonio> :-( i feel realy stupid and angry with myself...
19:55:20 <oklopol> hehe, could've happened to me :)
20:00:08 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: you bastard
20:02:39 <ehird`> oklopol: you are joking right
20:03:50 <Tritonio> oklopol, what funny faces are you talking about?
20:03:58 <ehird`> Tritonio: :(), :&}, etc
20:05:29 <Tritonio> i tried the -n switch but there is no progress bar and even with my flash drive it takes too long
20:06:15 <oklopol> ehird`: yeah, that's sort of a classic whether you know perl or not
20:07:12 <oklopol> anyways, it *is* a classic
20:08:34 <ehird`> sweetifying it, bomb () { bomb | bomb & }; bomb
20:08:36 <ehird`> certainly not perl code
20:10:29 <ehird`> you know, when you do program &
20:10:35 <ehird`> and it runs in the background.
20:10:59 <ehird`> Run bomb, with its output piped into (run bomb)... in the background
20:11:01 <oklopol> eh... thank you for that, i couldn't have managed ;)
20:12:03 <oklopol> i always wondered how : can be a valid identifier in perl :Pp
20:14:28 <ehird`> i like my apl-like language
20:14:35 <ehird`> otw<-" bottles of beer on the wall"bob<-" bottles of beer.\n"pia<-"Take one down and pass it around, "
20:14:38 <ehird`> 99.2<={stdout+=+otw+", "+_+bob+pia+_+otw+".\n"}
20:14:41 <ehird`> stdout+="1 bottle of beer on the wall, 1 bottle of beer.\n"+pia+"no more bottles of beer on the wall.\n"
20:14:44 <ehird`> stdout+="No more"+otw+", no more"+bob+"Go to the store and buy some more, 99"+otw".\n"
20:14:48 <ehird`> it looks like perl line noise, but amplified
20:16:21 <oklopol> http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/j.html
20:16:34 <oklopol> not sure what the shortest entry there is, but J is pretty nice at that
20:16:52 <ehird`> i mean, what i pasted isn't
20:17:08 <ehird`> its similar to APL/J (J is descended from APL), but it's not either
20:17:32 <oklopol> i recognize your language alright.
20:18:02 <oklopol> but anyhows, do you know what the shortest is?
20:18:14 <ehird`> (Alternatively, non-recursive version: fac<-{*(1.)})
20:18:43 <oklopol> fac={*_} in oklotalk too :)
20:19:15 <oklopol> i currently also beat J, was gonna start parser tonight, but a friend showed me a math problem and i used almost the whole day on it :<
20:19:23 <oklopol> i mean, beat J at 99bottles
20:19:25 <ehird`> = is used for equality in my language :)
20:19:38 <ehird`> since, = for assignment might shorten the simplest expressions like these
20:19:50 <ehird`> but using it for equality instead of e.g. == shortens more complex expressions by lots
20:20:28 <oklopol> i could use it for both... the semantics wouldn't get cluttered, but i'll prolly make == for clarity
20:20:51 <oklopol> or then not, clarity is for wimps
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20:34:52 <g4lt-mordant> I need to unlearn bash and learn a posix shell
20:44:03 <bsmntbombdood> while read i; do wget $i -O - 2>/dev/null|mplayer - -cache 8192 -quiet; done;
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21:04:26 <ehird`> actually a pretty nice cat program
21:09:30 <ehird`> there should be a graphical language where the cat program must look something like a cat
21:09:34 <ehird`> not just an arbitary restriction
21:09:39 <ehird`> but because of the very nature of how you code it
21:09:46 <ehird`> maybe 99bottles -> a bottle (or many) too
21:18:25 <ehird`> who wants to help me think of syntax for my various regexp's features?
22:01:21 <ehird`> i really like my apl language's if syntax
22:01:31 <ehird`> COND => IFTRUE -> IFFALSE
22:01:38 <ehird`> X => Y is just a pair (like lisp cons)
22:01:47 <ehird`> the real function is just X -> Y
22:02:13 <ehird`> just it only takes a list for X, and lazily evaluates its second argument and the cdr of the pair
22:38:42 <oerjan> reminds me a bit of the prolog version, i think it uses -> and ; similarly
22:39:26 <ehird`> my language is so compact and crazy because of the simple fact that infix binary operators default unused arguments to _ (function argument)
22:39:49 <ehird`> also, high abuse of precedence rules
22:42:22 <ehird`> ooh, i just serialized i can shorten by 99bob
22:45:33 <ehird`> final version of 99bob:
22:45:33 <ehird`> bow<-" of beer on the wall"otw<-" bottles"+bow bob<-" bottles of beer.\n"pia<-"Take one down and pass it around, "
22:45:37 <ehird`> 99.2<={stdout+=+otw+", "++bob+pia++bow+".\n"}
22:45:39 <ehird`> stdout+="1 bottle"+otw+", 1 bottle of beer.\n"+pia+"no more bottles "+otw+".\n"
22:45:42 <ehird`> stdout+="No more"+otw+", no more"+bob+"Go to the store and buy some more, 99"+otw+".\n"
22:45:55 <ehird`> er, s/bow/otw in the <={}
23:22:02 <ehird`> there should be more "ubiquitous programs"
23:22:09 <ehird`> cat, hello world, fac, fib, 99bob isn't enough
23:22:54 <ehird`> i guess i'll do ackermann
23:23:12 <ehird`> ... yikes!! I don't know how to do multiple arguments.
23:25:41 <ehird`> i would do a quine, but meh
23:25:46 <ehird`> it'd just be the simple:
23:26:09 <ehird`> q<-{stdout+=+(somehow add ""s and escape quotes here)}
23:26:25 <ehird`> just q with everything before the call
23:26:30 <ehird`> not really interesting
23:34:06 <ehird`> mandelbrot set might be interesting...
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04:03:57 <RodgerTheGreat> seems like implementing a basic sort (heap, bubble or insertion, perhaps) and some other general-purpose algos like counting elements or finding the largest element would be a good test of any language
06:16:48 <GreaseMonkey> woot: http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/bf.asm.txt
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08:43:26 <GreaseMonkey> btw, i'm working on AWOS. what are you working on?
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17:25:26 * oerjan is sure this new "hi" "Huh" "!" language must be a brainfuck derivative
17:25:48 <oerjan> in the Ook/Moo tradition
17:25:53 * pikhq agrees with oerjan
17:26:10 <ehird`> (it is, actually! is a command too)
17:26:15 <ehird`> (so is (it is, actually! is a command too))
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19:34:38 <ehird`> oerjan: fiendish is also a command
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21:31:24 <bsmntbombdood> my dumbass brother drove the riding mower into the ditch
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01:14:00 <GregorR> Because MISC is much awesomeness!
01:14:15 <GregorR> Add a few macros and you've got a hell of a sexy, uber-RISCy machine 8-D
01:14:26 <GregorR> Now I just need to design one and implement it in the size of a head of a pin.
01:15:01 <GregorR> Just needs a micro-ALU, three registers and probably an MMU
01:16:47 <GregorR> Some trickiness might get around the requirement of an MMU.
01:19:32 <RodgerTheGreat> that's the architecture we're forced to learn for Computer Organization at my college.
01:19:52 <RodgerTheGreat> I really wish they taught us something a little more useful, like PPC or ARM.
01:20:16 <GregorR> MISC is an overloaded namespace. MISC means Minimal Instruction Set Computer, but most things called MISCs aren't truly minimal in the absolute sense, just minimal in the "pretty damn small" sense.
01:20:25 <GregorR> The MISC I'm talking about (on esolangs.org) has one instruction.
01:21:26 <RodgerTheGreat> oh. sweet. You should call it OISC to reduce confusion
01:21:55 <oerjan> that is of course also taken
01:22:19 <GregorR> OISC is the common name for that style of computer, MISC is a specific "device"
01:22:24 <GregorR> Also, OISC is grammatically-dubious :P
01:22:58 <oerjan> well so is MISC if you squint the right way
01:22:59 <GregorR> That just means it has a single instruction set ...
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01:29:56 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/bubble.c
01:36:55 * oerjan thought his editor was ignoring newlines for a moment
01:37:33 <pikhq> 'indent' does *not* make it any better.
01:37:41 <pikhq> Nor does a run through the preprocessor.
01:58:44 <GregorR> You can put blocks in ?: comparisons? >_O
02:08:30 <pikhq> Perfectly valid GNU C.
02:12:41 <pikhq> Now, who can figure out what that does? :p
02:13:56 <pikhq> Huh. I think I screwed that program up. XD
02:20:16 <pikhq> No, I did. My second instance of a=!a; toggled a, when I just want it consistently set to 0.
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05:38:01 <Sukoshi`> So, let's assume some random person nonchalantly came up to you and asked you to design a GTK GUI layout for an RPN Calculator.
05:39:22 <Sukoshi`> I'll be going back off to aether after today, but.
05:40:07 <bsmntbombdood> Sukoshi`: why the hell would a calculator need a gui?
05:40:33 <Sukoshi`> Because you don't want to stare at a terminal display when switching between your math homework and the screen?
05:40:43 <oerjan> apart from a bunch of buttons with symbols and function names on them...
05:41:03 <Sukoshi`> Well, the display is what I'm really concerned about.
05:41:13 <Sukoshi`> What would be the most effective way to display the stack.
05:42:30 <bsmntbombdood> doesn't matter, doesn't matter, doesn't matter, just use emacs calc
05:43:27 <Sukoshi`> Now that I have Real Life Responsibilities(TM), I can't run Emacs all the time, by the way.
05:44:03 <oerjan> you mean it takes longer to start up than the length of your breaks?
05:44:51 <Sukoshi`> Well, more like, keeping Emacs always up is pointless, since I use the computer so much less.
05:45:09 <Sukoshi`> On average, 1.5 hours a day, spent browsing Reddit and miscellaneous forums.
05:46:52 <bsmntbombdood> Sukoshi`: will you be participating in the #esoteric orgy?
05:47:07 <Sukoshi`> bsmntbombdood: Only for some few hours for the rest of today.
05:47:38 <pikhq> GTK GUI layout for an RPN calculator?
05:48:23 <pikhq> B) Does STATEMENT: __________________________________ \n OUTPUT: ____________________ count?
05:49:14 * oerjan suddenly envisions the stack displayed like a Star Wars style intro
05:49:22 <Sukoshi`> Orpie has already been invented for the curses world, by the way.
05:50:11 * pikhq envisions a Norwegian mathematician talking about esoteric languages
05:51:42 <pikhq> 少しさん、名前はジョウサイアです。;)
05:52:19 <pikhq> えと。……ちがう。「ジョサイア」だ。
05:52:35 <pikhq> oerjan, if you would add some Norwegian to the fray?
05:52:49 <oerjan> det kommer ikke p tale
05:52:55 <pikhq> At least *trying* to transcribe it.
05:54:29 <pikhq> "I understand. Well, what reading is good? Since there's so many things. . ."
05:54:36 <Sukoshi`> Miguel de Icaza のMonoの新しい報告はどう？
05:55:05 <Sukoshi`> ``Well, what should we talk about? There's so many things, so...''
05:56:42 <Sukoshi`> Linuxのたくさんな人達がMonoはMSの付いた物から絶対ダメって言っているし。。。
05:57:52 <pikhq> Trying to say "accepted".
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06:00:59 <Sukoshi`> でも。。。そのチャンスの確立は。。。ゼロだと思う。。。(苦笑
06:01:02 <pikhq> すごくいい、よ。UMRのACMは二番造った。
06:01:43 <pikhq> The Association for Computing Machinery.
06:02:04 <pikhq> Bringing you such delights as the phrase "computer science". . .
06:04:38 <pikhq> 話してはちょっとむずかしい。よくkitenを作るんだ。……
06:04:38 <Sukoshi`> 今の見える狙いはUC Berkeleyだ。この町の辺りであるって、お金持ちのない人で優しくて、そんあわけだ。
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06:06:49 <pikhq> Okay, I'll stop with the Japanese.
06:07:37 <pikhq> If you want an exact translation, it'll take me a while. . .
06:07:43 <pikhq> So many kanji that I don't know. . .
06:10:34 <pikhq> Realise that all of us code.
06:10:48 <pikhq> "Which: Bach xor Falconer?"
06:14:29 <bsmntbombdood> i think i'm going to go with ethanol instead of music
06:19:08 <oerjan> well, since so many people have stolen from Bach, it is not impossible that you could do both in one...
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10:53:24 <SimonRC> pikhq: how do you know Japanese?
11:04:14 <SimonRC> pikhq: also, what is the line-ending type in that C code?
11:04:32 <SimonRC> amazingly, PFE doesn't auto-detect
11:06:18 <SimonRC> and you can't put braces in an expression
11:12:49 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: I think you mean "Erdős", not "air dish"
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11:40:00 <oklopol> (bsmntbombdood) should i listen to bach or falconer? <<< we have two or's in finnish just for that distinction!
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15:15:32 <pikhq> SimonRC: I've been learning Japanese at my high school.
15:15:43 <pikhq> It's standard UNIX style.
15:15:58 <pikhq> And thanks to GNU C, I *can* put braces in an expression.
15:16:32 * pikhq is almost glad he didn't try GNU's dynamically-sized arrays
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17:47:49 <SimonRC> I am getting flooded with requests
17:48:08 <ehird`> PING requests? or VERSION requests? ;)
17:55:19 <SimonRC> question: how to do an eye-rolling smiley
17:55:32 <ehird`> there is no standard, i think
17:55:35 <ehird`> :rolleyes: is what most forums use
17:55:48 <ehird`> 8-) is what msn uses, but that's not an eye roll by any stretch of the imagination
17:58:01 <ehird`> no, that just looks unconcious
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21:03:01 <bsmntbombdood> lol http://zelmor.uw.hu/blog/best_h_doujin_ending_ever.jpg
21:05:08 <oklopol> the boys were having such fun
21:05:45 <ehird`> god pidgin is retarded
21:05:59 <ehird`> how on earth do I enable flashing of windows without making it do it for irc too?!
21:06:47 <bsmntbombdood> Et oui l'été s'éloignant petit à petit, le travail revient au galop donc je vous ai concocté de nombreuses surprises donc un nouveaux sites qui va vous permettre de faire de nombreuse rencontre sex!!!
21:07:03 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: i can't be arsed; i am hardly ever on this machine
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22:18:48 <ehird`> THME NEMW STANDARWD SPECIFIEWS ALWL WORDWS MUSWT HAVWE "W" IWN THWE SECONWD-LASWT POSITIOWN
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23:09:36 <ehird`> you have very concise dir names
23:10:12 <ehird`> i always press tab after each dir name, it's a habit
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23:10:21 <ehird`> ~/m<tab>in<tab>bp<tab>
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01:52:58 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.safalra.com/programming/esoteric-languages/misc/architecture-specification/ <- I think I'm going to build a simplified version of this in a logic simulator
01:53:45 <RodgerTheGreat> mainly I think the whole address or constant thing is unnecessary and adds a fair amount of complexity. It's better to just store constants at memory locations
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01:58:09 <RodgerTheGreat> is it assumed that a MISC machine uses two's complement for numbers?
04:02:42 <bsmntbombdood> everybody here should go to ##crypto-forum and talk about anonymous digital currency
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04:43:11 <oklopol> now for a completely different subject
04:43:18 <oklopol> what was the first time you joined
04:43:36 <oklopol> and out of curiosity, has safalra been here *at all* during that time?
04:43:54 <oklopol> i should read all the logs
04:44:16 <oerjan> you can google at site:tunes.org
04:45:02 <oerjan> er, the first hit is <calamari> is Safalra ever on irc?
04:45:35 <oklopol> indeed you can, i never remember google has that tag
04:46:06 <oerjan> you can also do it from the advanced search menu
04:48:52 <oerjan> http://www.safalra.com/programming/esoteric-languages/
04:50:11 <oklopol> hmm, misc is also safalra's?
04:50:28 <oklopol> well, time to do some coffee ->
04:50:31 <oerjan> not seen on the wiki since 21 Oct 2006
04:51:08 <oerjan> but the website has been updated since
04:54:10 <oerjan> stalking further, he edited wikipedia yesterday...
04:57:42 <bsmntbombdood> he urinates an average of 6 times per day, and spend 3 hours per day browsing digg
05:02:33 <oklopol> what? how dare he exist and not be on this channel simultaneously :|
05:03:22 <oklopol> i mean, he must've existed yesterday then :|
05:21:33 <pikhq> I vote today's xkcd "kick ass". In favor?
05:22:24 <oerjan> how many hobbies does he have, anyhow? :D
05:23:19 <pikhq> Xkcd (the guy) needs many of them.
05:23:36 <pikhq> As if running a webcomic and an IRC network weren't enough. :p
05:23:57 <oerjan> i guess it takes his mind off the velociraptors.
05:24:17 <pikhq> No, it fuels his paranoia.
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07:51:59 <GregorR> bsmntbom1dood: When you affect something, it causes an effect.
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18:59:57 <ehird`> "ais523 apologises for taking longer than their quit message 2 hours ago suggested"
19:00:07 <ehird`> also, you're 6 hours late.
19:03:28 <lament> i don't think it's grammatically appropriate to use "their" with a specific personal name (ais523)
19:03:41 <lament> although ais523 could refer to a group of people, i suppose.
19:04:00 <ehird`> that's the singular-they issue
19:04:16 <ehird`> personally I am in favour of singular they/their - I don't like gender-specific pronouns.
19:04:29 <ehird`> and "hir" and all of those are just ridiculous
19:04:44 <lament> yes, i don't think singular "they" is appropriate with a specific person name
19:04:58 <lament> "I was talking to my mother, and they told me..."
19:05:09 <ehird`> "Blah-blah walked to the store. They bought a dollar for two dollars."
19:05:29 <ehird`> "Blah-blah was walking to the store, when they bought a dollar for two dollars"
19:16:37 <RodgerTheGreat> I think the medical community should encourage self-treppanation. With a little luck, all the morons will kill themselves with electric drills! http://www.bmezine.com/news/people/A10101/trepan/
19:19:51 <RodgerTheGreat> basically a guy who rants about the benefits of treppanation- " I read about the supposed de-conditioning properties. I read about more parts of the brain working simultaneously as there would be more blood up there to help this happen. The arguments for it all seemed to be quite lengthy, quite detailed, thought out and researched, and very intelligent."
19:20:20 <RodgerTheGreat> and then writes diary entries about the "new sensations" he feels
19:20:45 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: what the fuck.
19:20:46 <RodgerTheGreat> and then months later reflects and realizes it was probably due to the placebo effect
19:22:04 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: are people really this retarded?
19:22:13 <bsmntbombdood> wouldn't you have to fuck with the brain and not just the skull to do that
19:22:29 <RodgerTheGreat> I like how it never occurs to him that he could have easily pithed himself or contracted a fatal meningitis infection.
19:22:48 <ehird`> i have a headache right now, maybe if my brain could breathe the outside air it would go away
19:22:53 <ehird`> brb, going to smash open my skull
19:23:25 <RodgerTheGreat> I also love the "most ancient form of surgery -> most effective kind of surgery!" logic
19:23:45 <RodgerTheGreat> surely if they did it in ancient times, it must be a good idea and safe medical practice!
19:24:00 <ehird`> that's why acupuncture is still listened two
19:24:05 <ehird`> "THEY WERE IN TUNE WITH THE FORCES"
19:24:16 <ehird`> even though they didn't know blood flowed around the body
19:24:23 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: you don't know what acupuncture is?
19:24:42 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: brought to you by the same kooks that brought you homeopathy: well, no, it was the Chinese. But still.
19:25:57 <RodgerTheGreat> acupuncture has some demonstrable effects. It kinda works, but we have no idea why. Homeopathy is pointless and retarded, and does nothing in controlled experiments
19:26:32 <ehird`> acupuncture does not work
19:27:35 <lament> nice to see a well-reasoned argument between two experts in the field
19:27:46 <lament> oh wait.. you're both talking out of your ass
19:28:10 <ehird`> lament: wait, we're both talking out of our asses... acupuncture is quantum? it simultaneously works and doesn't work?
19:28:33 <RodgerTheGreat> I think he just did the equivalent of a [citation needed] on both of us
19:28:55 <ehird`> /nick ehird`[citation needed]
19:29:01 <lament> ehird`: i don't know if it works or not. I never researched the subject.
19:29:30 <ehird`> lament: they stick incredibly thin needles into your body.
19:30:02 <ehird`> that by itself is just crazy and leads me to believe it wouldn't work; but i have done some minor research and my belief has been reaffirmed
19:31:04 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: this treppanation article is making me feel sick :/
19:31:06 <RodgerTheGreat> alright, let me clarify my arguments here- acupuncture is a rather expansive topic
19:31:53 <lament> ehird`: what about traditional medicine? They make you swallow little round things.
19:32:22 <lament> and that's somehow supposed to make you get better?
19:32:25 <ehird`> lament: except that's a really vague definition, whereas the above is a pretty accurate description of acupuncture
19:33:04 <RodgerTheGreat> specifically, clinical trials have shown that acupuncture has some success at pain relief, and works at least better than no treatment or a placebo.
19:33:58 <lament> ehird`: a pretty accurate description of medical drugs is "they feed you tiny amounts of chemicals".
19:34:17 <lament> as opposed to "they stick incredibly thin needles into your body"
19:34:24 <lament> i can't decide which one sounds more looney
19:34:48 <ehird`> lament: so, what do you do when you get ill, exactly?
19:35:41 <lament> spend too much time on IRC
19:35:55 <ehird`> that actually sounds pretty reasonable
19:36:03 <ehird`> let's set up a foundation
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20:25:52 <oklopol> attitude cures sicknesses, not medicine
20:26:19 <ehird`> oklopol: i hope you realise we are joking :-)
20:26:37 <oklopol> of course, like anyone would believe drugs help people
20:27:16 <oklopol> this is part of my newly-found "i do not believe in X" philosophy
20:27:42 <ehird`> oklopol: apply that to ~(P&~P)
20:27:51 <ehird`> mwahaha! I have broken your logic!
20:27:56 <ehird`> unless you don't believe in logic.
20:28:06 <ehird`> in which case, i claim that "I do not believe in X" philosophy is false!
20:28:13 <ehird`> And you cannot argue, since P&~P can be true!
20:28:25 <oklopol> i do believe in logic, i just don't believe i applied that right.
20:28:34 <oklopol> when asserting that proposition
20:30:09 <oklopol> that is by its very nature a very paradoxical philosophy, i have to live with that
20:30:30 <oklopol> hmm... i feel like a family guy
20:39:20 <oklopol> i have no idea what the kid says half the time
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13:16:47 <oklopol> yeah, new people are pretty hot
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14:41:48 <RodgerTheGreat> "Hey there- wow, that nick is pretty sexy there- I like the way you type words. Your diction is incredible"
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16:05:39 <SimonRC> class baz { public baz baz; public baz baz(baz baz) { return baz; } }
16:05:40 <SimonRC> fudge: I forget that methods are non-first-class in java
16:05:45 <SimonRC> "baz baz = new baz(); baz.baz = baz; baz.baz(baz);"
16:34:46 <ehird`> SimonRC: you are crazy
16:39:41 <SimonRC> "public static void blessed greased +2 main(String[] args)"
16:42:31 <ehird`> i wonder what the craziest java code ever is
16:43:13 <SimonRC> I saw a Haskell-to-Java translation once.
16:43:31 <SimonRC> every line had, like, 80 characters in it
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17:15:43 <ehird`> http://userstyles.org/styles/588 I didn't think you could make reddit any more minimal...
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23:07:34 <ehird`> YESOI OIAM FUNNAYESTthing everUIFTOYUDONTACCEPTMYFUNNAYDIE
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04:29:51 <immibis> ?????does anyone else see F at the front of this text or the end? ?dne eht ro txet siht fo tnorf eht ta F ees esle enoyna seod FFF
04:32:39 <immibis> i see five question marks, the sentences, and FFF at the end.
04:32:40 <lament> question marks at the front
04:32:58 <immibis> irssi is a text client? probably thats why not.
04:33:39 <immibis> i pasted the unicode-control-characters-for-right-to-left-that-were-in-front-of-the-cyrillic-combining-millions-sign-that-someone-put-control-characters-in-front-of-to-reverse-text.
04:34:24 <lament> cyrillic combining millions sign?
04:34:26 <pikhq> I do believe that it's my terminal that's fucking that up, not irssi.
04:34:37 <pikhq> In theory, my terminal does Unicode.
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04:34:46 <pikhq> In practice, it doesn't do that. ;)
04:35:05 <immibis> or maybe icechat didn't like it, and actually sent question marks to the channel instead of the control codes.
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04:36:22 <immibis> !binascii 11100010 01000000 10101110 00100010 00100011 00100100
04:36:56 <immibis> that *was* the binary utf-8 encoding, right?
04:38:39 <immibis> hexadecimal utf-8 encoding is E2 80 AE D2 89
04:39:48 <immibis> !binascii 11100010 10000000 10101110 11010010 10001001
04:40:31 <immibis> hmm...icechat doesn't appear to do utf-8.
04:43:28 <immibis> does anyone else see a circle of commas?
04:52:29 <immibis> !binascii 11010010 10001001
04:52:43 * immibis evidently needs to use another client
04:55:38 <immibis> i can't see that unicode character. what is it?
04:57:24 <immibis> !binascii 11100010 10000000 10101110 11010010 10001001
04:57:52 <immibis> !binascii 11100010 10000000 10101110 11010010 10001001 00100001 00100010 00100011 00100100 00100101 00100110 00100111 00101000 00101001
04:58:30 <immibis> !binascii 11100010 10000000 10101110 11010010 10001001 00110001 00110010 00110011 00110100 00110101 00110110 00110111 00111000 00111001
05:24:57 <immibis> it's 2. right-to-left override and combining-cyrillic-millions-sign
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14:15:40 <ehird`> [insert something witty, like "[insert something witty here]" here]
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14:42:02 <ehird`> he actually has put up a gallery on wetriffs
14:44:23 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/screenshots/terrible_code.png
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14:44:51 <ehird`> its a terrible way to do a nob
14:44:55 <ehird`> but i can understand it
14:45:28 <Sgeo> the terrible part was the if(TRUE)s.. which were MY fault
14:45:38 <ehird`> if (TRUE) will be a nop if your compiler doesn't optimize
14:45:44 <Sgeo> Because I was too lazy to unindent
14:45:45 <ehird`> its multithreaded, gl code, so nops are useful
14:46:06 <Sgeo> And didn't realize that Shift-Tab, in fact, worked, if lines were selected
14:46:10 <Sgeo> Nothing to do with nops
14:54:39 <ehird`> http://stupidfilter.org/wiki/ best software project of 2007
14:54:48 <ehird`> i mean, it filters stupid things! rock.
14:55:00 <ehird`> http://stupidfilter.org/random.php random stupidity from their database.
15:15:32 * oklopol has made the most verbose truth table generator ever: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p443156611.txt
15:15:59 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p356232664.txt
15:16:18 <oklopol> for (-q&p)|(q&-r) that is :P
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15:16:48 <oklopol> with more variables the "verbose" mode is quite a flood...
15:16:49 <ehird`> P and Q should be uppercase! :P
15:17:03 <ehird`> that should be (~Q&P)|(Q&~R)
15:17:08 <oklopol> i guess that might be nicer
15:17:18 <oklopol> i'll make ~ an optional negation
15:17:29 <ehird`> maybe even <> instead of (), but that's only because I've been reading Godel, Escher, Bach, which uses it
15:17:40 <oklopol> i would've done ^ and v, but v is a letter...
15:18:22 <ehird`> in GEB's Propositional Logic notation, and thus TNT, & and | must be encoded in brackets
15:18:37 <ehird`> this makes parsing it trivial, of cours
15:18:51 <ehird`> because no infix ambiguousness
15:18:52 <oklopol> you mean X&Y&Z is illegal?
15:19:14 <ehird`> its notable because it can be implemented as typographical substitution rules
15:19:20 <oklopol> but i kinda already made the parser, so... i don't feel like wasting it! :D
15:20:06 <ehird`> dunno what to use for => though
15:20:14 <oklopol> well, i just made that for school, we have to make a lot of tables, and i'm not going to do that manually, no matter how much the teacher cries.
15:20:17 <ehird`> in the book its a glyph
15:20:29 <oklopol> you can just do greedy tokenizing
15:20:36 <oklopol> but it can be pretty confusing
15:20:48 <oklopol> well, luckily = is no operator
15:21:04 <oklopol> err... that's illegal anyway :)
15:21:46 <ehird`> oh well, hooray for unicode:
15:23:04 <ehird`> "not Q and P implies P does not imply Q"
15:23:07 <oklopol> i have no idea what your point was
15:23:40 <ehird`> <=> is not in propositional logic...
15:24:01 <oklopol> it's just an arbitrary binary operator
15:24:15 <ehird`> oh, i forgot, GEB doesn't use & and |
15:24:18 <oklopol> you can use any operator that has to do with bits
15:24:29 <oklopol> i mean, any F bool bool -> bool
15:25:01 <ehird`> (∧ = and, ∨ = or in TNT)
15:25:09 <oklopol> hmm... python prolly knows unicode
15:25:24 <oklopol> i could have those there optionally too
15:25:29 <ehird`> interestingly, iirc it does not use ¬ for negation, but ~
15:26:04 <ehird`> rewrite the sentence replacing boxes with []
15:26:11 <ehird`> so i can point you to what symbls those are
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15:26:46 <oklopol> all except the negation symbol
15:27:04 <oklopol> <<~Q∧P>⇒~<P⇒Q>> i don't see these though
15:27:04 <ehird`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_symbols logical conjunction for the ^ one
15:27:10 <ehird`> logical disjunction for the v one
15:27:18 <ehird`> i was saying that they are not the same, although they look alike
15:27:21 <ehird`> they are unicode symbols
15:27:39 <ehird`> Alternatively: set your client to utf-8
15:27:52 <ehird`> get a browser that doesn't suck
15:28:02 <ehird`> what are you using, lynx?!
15:28:07 <ehird`> heck i think lynx supports unicode
15:30:08 <oklopol> i don't eften have to see unicode characters -> easier to let it be the default.
15:30:19 <ehird`> IE sucks in more ways than unicode
15:30:55 <ehird`> seriously, IE is not a reasonable choice in this age
15:31:36 <oklopol> i don't see why, but i believe you
15:32:17 <oklopol> i won't use firefox before i see one reason myself, though, unless you make it my default browser
15:32:26 <oklopol> or someone else, i'm not gonna.
15:32:50 <ehird`> i use safari on my mac
15:33:01 <oklopol> mozilla does not use my default font for the url bar, why?
15:33:34 <oklopol> i see, well, perhaps i've chosen a bad font by accident, and ie just happens to know what i like :)
15:33:42 <oklopol> i have not touched any options.
15:34:25 <oklopol> anyways, i do not care at all which browser i'm using, as far as i'm conserned, they all suck ass.
15:34:48 <ehird`> you think everything sucks ass, though
15:34:53 <ehird`> especially if anything is - god forbid - open source
15:35:15 <oklopol> i agree with the first one
15:35:27 <oklopol> "everything sucks" is a good starting point
15:35:53 <oklopol> it is, and really, let's not discuss this, i do not care for this stuff
15:36:14 <ehird`> you started the conversation... i think
15:36:40 <oklopol> of course i should've known i can't mention i have IE without starting one ;)
15:37:26 <oklopol> (17:29:04) (oklopol) it's the default
15:37:26 <oklopol> (17:29:16) (ehird`) that's a good reason?
15:37:42 <oklopol> it's not a good reason, but there doesn't need to be one, the browsers are the same.
15:37:48 <oklopol> there's no crucial difference
15:37:56 <oklopol> i guess i'm starting now, though :P
15:38:28 <ehird`> there IS a crucial difference
15:38:32 <oklopol> i'll get back to coding, there's still some stuff i need to add to that thingie...
15:39:20 <oklopol> you mean the thingie that chooses the location of different objects on a page?
15:39:23 <ehird`> if you don't know what a rendering engine is then don't say "well they're basically the same" because you don't know anything about browsers
15:39:36 <ehird`> it's the thing that turns the parse tree into the page.
15:39:41 <ehird`> it is EVERYTHING to a browser
15:39:46 <oklopol> well i know what it is then.
15:39:55 <ehird`> IE's is broken, breaks the spec in about 10,000 ways, and has lovely little microsoftisms
15:40:06 <ehird`> gecko (mozilla's) isn't perfect, but it's far better than that
15:40:20 <oklopol> well it may be bad, i've never seen it fail though
15:40:24 <ehird`> webkit (apple's open source engine, descended from KHTML (konqueror's)) is probably the best around
15:40:34 <ehird`> and you have't seen it fail because web developers have to prance around until IE accepts it
15:41:05 <oklopol> trues, i've made a few pages myself (very few)
15:41:39 <oklopol> okay, you win, i do agree that's a good reason to use a better browser, in theory.
15:41:54 <oklopol> also, i think piracy is wrong
15:42:00 <oklopol> much more than that browser thing
15:42:17 <oklopol> i'll start using firefox right after i stop piracy
15:42:49 <oklopol> i don't do much with either
15:43:58 <oklopol> s/i stop piracy/i stop doing piracy
15:44:51 <oklopol> has anyone set Tkinter up for Python CE?
15:44:58 <oklopol> or some other graphics library
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16:43:16 <ehird`> not nearly as fun as SYNTAXLESS!
16:43:59 <ehird`> syntaxless has no syntax!
16:44:12 <ehird`> it's like forth, but it has lambdas
16:44:40 <ehird`> forth doesn't have lambdas
16:44:47 <ehird`> :UNNAMED does not count
16:45:05 <oklopol> :UNNAMED is some sick smiley
16:45:28 <oklopol> well i guess that could be a beard
16:45:31 <ehird`> it's :U with a very long neck made of an accordian
16:45:42 <oklopol> ah, that's more likely, true
16:46:10 <oklopol> i have to reboot, nothing works :<<
16:46:30 <oklopol> well yeah, it always works
16:46:48 <RodgerTheGreat> lol- I just realized a downside to coding in postscript- it's a little bit of a trick to print out your sourcecode
16:47:16 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: SEE ME
16:47:18 <ehird`> oh wait, that's forth :P
16:47:36 <ehird`> : QUINE SEE ME ; has to be the funniest bit of code ever
16:47:56 <RodgerTheGreat> forth has really nifty ideas, but I find the syntax rather ugly. Postscript has very pretty syntax
16:48:05 <ehird`> syntaxless is tons of fun
16:48:11 <ehird`> [ ... ] is a lambda, but that's not syntax :P
16:48:27 <ehird`> [ is just an operator which does some internal tricks
16:48:41 <ehird`> you can bind lambdas to names to make them operators
16:49:00 <ehird`> then you can do 2 addtwo and get 4 on the stack
16:49:07 <ehird`> you can get the lambda bound to an operator with \
16:49:10 <oklopol> if there can be a program, there must be a syntax
16:49:14 <ehird`> \ addtwo gets you what [ 2 + ] would
16:49:27 <ehird`> ! calls the lambda on the stack
16:49:28 <oklopol> nesting is not required for "having a syntax"
16:49:40 <ehird`> 2 \ addtwo ! is the same as 2 addtwo
16:50:00 <ehird`> oklopol: well, it kind of has a syntax
16:50:09 <ehird`> oklopol: it has a LEXICAL syntax, but not any more layers of syntax
16:50:20 <oklopol> for a while i thought you were pasting that, but i guess it was just your fast fingers :)
16:50:28 <ehird`> the lexical syntax simply says that words are seperated by whitespace
16:50:29 <oklopol> now that i look at the irregular time tags
16:51:37 <ehird`> oklopol: i'll write a short program in syntaxless
16:52:36 <oklopol> i'll read it if it's less than a page
16:53:17 <ehird`> http://nonlogic.org/dump/text/1192031591.html
16:53:29 <oklopol> reboot now, i'll read teh logz
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17:10:07 <ehird`> oklopol: http://nonlogic.org/dump/text/1192031661.html
17:10:16 <ehird`> should give you a general feel of syntaxless
17:10:45 <ehird`> http://nonlogic.org/dump/text/1192032638.html fixed version
17:10:51 <ehird`> should give you a general feel of syntaxless.
17:12:08 <ehird`> . pops a string off the stack and dumps it to stdout
17:12:31 <ehird`> of course it'll be defined something like: [ STDOUT file. ] ' . bind
17:12:37 <ehird`> ', of course, quotes a name
17:13:15 <ehird`> the . . might be confusing
17:13:23 <oklopol> " Hello, " . . " !" <<< this is just how you might do the catenation with your other language
17:13:29 <ehird`> if the stack is " world" greet:
17:13:38 <oklopol> i know stack-based programming :)
17:13:48 <ehird`> it's just confused some stack-based programmers
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17:13:54 <ehird`> possibly not very good ones, hehe
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17:14:44 <oklopol> my first language was stack-based, after that i've considered it too trivial; now that i've realized parsing is actually pretty easy, i might start making stack-based languages again
17:15:02 <ehird`> syntaxless does not really involve any parsing
17:15:15 <ehird`> it has one measly, tiny rule of lexical analysis that is so minimal you could barely call it a rule
17:15:27 <oklopol> that was a completely off-topic sentence :)
17:15:45 <ehird`> well, no, that doesn't listen to tabs and newlines
17:16:03 <oklopol> don't you just love it when you make a logger bot, and it logs for 9 days and then suddenly doesn't :D
17:18:06 <oklopol> now that i actually read it through :P
17:18:20 <ehird`> \ is an operator that reads a word forward and returns the lambda that is bound to the operator named by the word
17:18:32 <ehird`> so, if you have [ X ] ' Y bind, \ Y returns [ X ]
17:18:45 <ehird`> basically it's how you pass around functions as arguments.
17:19:02 <ehird`> because, of course, greet-world say would call greet-world then call say
17:19:14 <ehird`> \ greet-world say puts greet-world's lambda on the stack and calls say
17:21:40 <ehird`> ! calls a lambda on the stack
17:21:46 <ehird`> here, i'll step-by-step it in a paste
17:23:25 <ehird`> http://nonlogic.org/dump/text/1192033400.html
17:23:39 <ehird`> x {...} is "x ran, and produced this subtree"
17:23:49 <ehird`> x : y is "x ran, and made the stack y"
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17:31:27 <ehird`> oklopol: you get it now? :)
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17:43:45 <oklopol> so it's automatically run at the end of the program?
17:44:28 <oklopol> well, if you push a lambda, it's not obvious to me it will be executed automatically at the end of the program
17:45:14 <ehird`> \ greet-world (Pushes lambda)
17:46:30 <oklopol> ah sorry, i thought the exclamation mark in the other lambda is a string too
17:46:40 <oklopol> [ " Hello, " . . " !" . ] ' greet bind
17:46:40 <oklopol> [ " I say: " . ! . ] ' say bind
17:47:04 <ehird`> it calls the lambda on the top of the stack
17:47:12 <oerjan> > let x ? y = x+y; infixr 5 ? in 2 ? 3
17:47:44 <oklopol> oerjan: pay me 5000e and i'll kill him for you
17:48:36 * oerjan assumes oklopol is referring to Mr. Wong
17:49:51 <oklopol> that chinese bastard has gone too far
17:57:16 <ehird`> Or should that be, *n?x. Nope, doesn't include AIX -- lessee, *x.
17:57:16 <ehird`> Yep, *[Xx], the standard operating system."
18:24:12 <GregorR> *[Xx] doesn't include Solaris by the way :P
18:24:48 <GregorR> Nor BSD if you don't say "BSD UNIX"
18:29:46 <GregorR> Also, if I am to assume from "[Xx]" that this was supposed to be regex, that's a bad regex (can't start with a *)
18:30:15 <GregorR> Clearly you want something like /(.*[Xx]|BSD|Solaris)/
18:42:29 * ehird` thinks what other esoteric ground he should cover...
18:42:34 <ehird`> I have a kind-of-forth-alike, an APL-alike...
19:01:11 <oklopol> i wonder if anyone ever made a brainfuck-derivative!
19:02:17 <oklopol> hmm... wonder if i should extend my logic library to solve simple constraint problems with a nicer syntax....
19:02:51 <ehird`> an AI might eventually grow out of it, or so Sam Hughes says ;)
19:05:10 <oklopol> random poll: how many bf-derivatives have you concocted?
19:10:03 <GregorR> Or at least, I recall only the one.
19:12:09 <oklopol> i made a "50 brainfuck derivatives" article once, had to invent 3 new
19:12:32 <oklopol> the descriptions were very small.
19:12:48 <oklopol> it was fucking hard trying to understand all of them in one night :D
19:13:11 <oklopol> therefore i'm pretty sure most are wrong, luckily no one will most likely ever read the article
19:18:35 <oklopol> it's so fulla typos i'm not even gonna start fixing them :D
19:19:41 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/42.htm http://www.vjn.fi/44.htm http://www.vjn.fi/46.htm
19:19:56 <oklopol> if you can decipher any of that, i'm surprised.
19:20:14 <oklopol> it's in three parts, because i was lazy :P
19:21:38 <oklopol> i understand my own descriptions up to the level i could code in many of those, but oh my god that's a lot of typoes and bad grammar :D
19:27:24 <ehird`> making a self-consistent logic and arithmetic system, but that is crazy to intuition and is completely unlike standard logic/maths :)
19:28:26 <oklopol> what do you mean self-consistent?
19:28:45 <ehird`> i don't mean actually consistent
19:28:49 <ehird`> Godel has something to say about that
19:28:57 <ehird`> but, you know. not tons of contradictory axioms
19:29:24 <oklopol> can you show me an example?
19:29:33 <ehird`> like having P and ~P as axioms
19:30:02 <oerjan> it could be consistent relative to some set theory more powerful than it
19:30:13 <ehird`> oerjan: sure, but you know what i mean
19:37:57 <ehird`> http://www.cs.uvm.edu/~jbongard/aestv2/index.php
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19:41:28 <ehird`> They worked quite well for me.
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19:48:33 <GregorR> Soon enough you'll be saying "This job sucks this job sucks (but at least it gets me paid)"
19:49:07 <SimonRC> Well, the company seems rather nice
19:49:25 <ehird`> that's what they said about microsfot
19:50:02 * GregorR high-fives ehird` for his favorite tpyo.
19:50:19 <ehird`> I lvoe tpyos, tehy aer fnu
19:50:39 <SimonRC> they are in 0xF0RD and are full of smart uni grads and make software that is cool AFAICT
19:50:53 <SimonRC> they have 23 people and a table-football table
19:51:20 <GregorR> They're such a good company, they can make 'R' a hexadecimal digit?
19:51:56 <oklopol> the movie was great, was wondering if the book is as good :P
19:52:13 <SimonRC> GregorR: well, Oxford (England) looks almost like a hex number
19:52:51 * oklopol needs to find a separate esoteric sex channel xD
19:53:15 <oklopol> but check it out, great movie
19:54:13 <oklopol> hehe, for a minute i thought someone had said something on #lolcode
19:54:25 <ehird`> why are you in #lolcode, that is the question
19:54:26 <oklopol> but i just pressed #lojban by accident
19:54:39 <oklopol> i'm usually on channels that have been mentioned in my presence
19:55:05 <oklopol> if i don't reboot for a while, i might make the channel a "favorite", and always autojoin is
19:55:12 <ehird`> who wants to try that crazy maths/logic system thing?
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20:01:02 <SimonRC> I just got the "Java Developer" job from here: http://www.decisionsoft.com/jobs.html
20:01:25 <ehird`> they're drunk on xml :o
20:04:44 -!- Cesque has joined.
20:09:23 <oklopol> or old and formerly invisible?
20:09:46 <Cesque> i probably won't say much
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20:09:53 <ehird`> YOU MUST SPEAK FOREVER
20:10:01 <oklopol> a lot of new people here right now, weird :|
20:10:15 <oklopol> Cesque, goffrie, Nucleo i guess
20:11:11 <ehird`> i arrived here earlier this year
20:11:13 <ehird`> not that earlier either
20:11:34 <oklopol> you're about as old as me, and that's what i'm comparing with
20:11:41 <Cesque> yeah, but that's still enough to become known
20:11:58 <ehird`> am I lim(x->inf) of age? :P
20:12:32 <oklopol> hmm... in case they invent eternal life, aren't we all
20:12:57 <SimonRC> "On average, the 30 models guessed 51.8519% of your choices correctly with a standard deviation of 4.6731."
20:13:11 <SimonRC> I am les predictable that most
20:13:19 <ehird`> you picked using random numbers
20:13:38 <Nucleo> oklopol, don't mind me...
20:14:01 <oklopol> i won't, zuzu_ has been here for ages, and i'm pretty sure it's a bot ;)
20:14:28 <SimonRC> no, i tried to choose the one that looks "nicer"
20:14:44 <ehird`> it's doing some sort of research
20:14:49 <ehird`> i found it interesting
20:14:56 <ehird`> oklopol: just click Continue or whatever
20:15:12 <ehird`> even if you are under 18, just click the "yes, over" link and put your real age in the Age: field
20:15:31 <ehird`> i was saying it for the benefit of anyone else in here
20:16:19 <oklopol> now for the benefit of a certain idiot: where do i press Continue :)
20:16:24 <SimonRC> (I think I ended up pickeing the more "regular" one in each case)
20:16:37 <ehird`> It's to the right of step 1.
20:16:53 <oklopol> WetRiffs.com (the site I mentioned/set up in xkcd #305) now has guitar-in-shower submissions up. (Gallery is NSFW) (wetriffs.com)
20:17:18 <oklopol> i see no "steps" on reddit.com
20:17:45 <ehird`> click Begin Experiment
20:18:09 <oklopol> 75. :The New Nostradamus - Can a fringe branch of mathematics forecast the future?
20:18:25 <ehird`> http://www.cs.uvm.edu/~jbongard/aestv2/http://www.cs.uvm.edu/~jbongard/aestv2/http://www.cs.uvm.edu/~jbongard/aestv2/http://www.cs.uvm.edu/~jbongard/aestv2/http://www.cs.uvm.edu/~jbongard/aestv2/http://www.cs.uvm.edu/~jbongard/aestv2/http://www.cs.uvm.edu/~jbongard/aestv2/http://www.cs.uvm.edu/~jbongard/aestv2/http://www.cs.uvm.edu/~jbongard/aestv2/http://www.cs.uvm.edu/~jbongard/aestv2/http://www.cs.uvm.edu/~jbongard/aestv2/http://www.cs
20:18:29 <ehird`> i have linked that twice
20:19:11 <oklopol> was wondering what you were referring to on the next line :D
20:26:34 <oklopol> On average, they guessed 55.4815% correct with a standard deviation of 3.008.
20:27:26 <oklopol> i just always chose the cuter duck
20:29:15 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure i was choosing the cuter one, but a part of me wanted to be as predictable as possible since SimonRC made it sound a good thing :P
20:29:31 <oklopol> i'm not sure if i managed to avoid that
20:29:42 <ehird`> if you are just being unpredictable on purpose
20:29:46 <ehird`> you're basically trashing the research results
20:29:47 <oklopol> might've been more predictable if i'd had no idea what it was.
20:30:20 <oklopol> i'm was not being unpredictable on purpose, but i'm not sure i managed to be as predictable as i really would've been
20:30:42 <oklopol> naturally given 90 choises, i'd choose a simple criteria and use that.
20:31:33 <oklopol> well not naturally, probably.
20:32:06 <ehird`> you are just meant to choose whichever is more aesthetically pleasing to you
20:32:16 <oklopol> like just pressing the shorter one, that would be even clearer trashing of the experiment, now i at least tried to take a "nice" one
20:33:07 <oklopol> the problem is i have no idea what "pleases me aesthetically"
20:33:16 <ehird`> whichever you like more
20:33:23 <ehird`> whichever you think is nicer
20:33:55 <oklopol> the problem is i'll just choose which looks better
20:34:35 <oklopol> i'll just choose an arbitrary criteria, i'm pretty sure
20:34:48 <ehird`> don't even TIHNK about criteria
20:34:55 <oklopol> some of those definately look nice
20:35:03 <oklopol> but most of them are... blobs
20:35:13 <oklopol> so i just choose a random one
20:35:27 <oklopol> i tried to force myself to think one of them is nicer than the other
20:35:58 <oklopol> but i don't think i'd actually do that, i'd choose either a random blob or just take a simple comparison routine and use that
20:36:16 <oklopol> hmm... why do we always end up discussing my bad qualities :PP
20:36:25 <oklopol> i'm gonna get me something to drink
20:36:43 <oklopol> i'll do that again, and reaaaally examine their beauty this time
20:37:06 <ehird`> you're just meant to pick as quick as possible
20:37:13 <ehird`> split decision, "which is better/nicer?"
20:37:25 <oerjan> since you're oklopol, just choose the one you would most like to have sex with.
20:37:26 <ehird`> it's to analyze what aestheticness really is
20:37:33 <ehird`> oerjan: this would probably work.
20:37:36 <oklopol> except i'll start wondering what the AI is thinking at about the third pic...
20:37:50 <oklopol> and analyzing my own choises
20:39:35 <oklopol> meh, the page doesn't wanna load again
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20:42:48 <oklopol> hmm, to be honest, it's quite confusing trying to get an erection over trivial 3d-models
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20:43:04 <ehird`> i might have to qdb that
20:44:11 <oklopol> i guess i'm a bit relieved it's not working for me
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20:45:19 * oerjan has clearly underestimated oklopol
20:45:53 <GregorR> Apparently I choose bizarre abstract forms based on shape rather than color or brightness :P
20:46:29 <oklopol> can you really choose those without keeping track of your preferences yourself: |
20:46:48 <ehird`> seriously what is wrong with you, i just chose which one i preferred
20:47:01 <oerjan> now maybe i wouldn't have made the suggestion if i had any idea what kind of pictures they were...
20:47:30 <GregorR> I just stared at the middle and then chose the one my eyes were drawn to.
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20:52:52 <oklopol> On average, they guessed 55.6296% correct with a standard deviation of 1.9444.
20:53:30 <bsmntbombdood> for being a dick to the teacher and then not doing the work i was supposed to
20:53:41 <oklopol> what's being a dick in this case?
20:53:58 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: well that's not very nice
20:54:06 <ehird`> please keep the case away from me
20:54:12 <oklopol> i was kicked out once for telling a teacher a math problem was unsolvable
20:54:25 <ehird`> oklopol: and then you promptly solved it?
20:55:25 <oklopol> she wanted me to do it, because everyone else did
20:56:15 <SimonRC> so how did anyone else solve it?
20:56:29 <oklopol> i think they used some pattern they'd learned in the class
20:56:48 <oklopol> because i felt i didn't need to
20:57:17 <oklopol> the teacher showed it to another teacher, and i was right, it was unsolvable
20:57:38 <ehird`> so how did they solve it
20:57:40 <oklopol> she came to me almost crying and told me i still should've done it and not humiliated her in front of the class.
20:57:41 <SimonRC> I am also an imperial nudity spotter by nature.
20:57:56 <ehird`> 1. Problem is unsolvable
20:57:56 <ehird`> 2. Others solved problem
20:57:59 <oklopol> when i just seriously had no idea how to do it :D
20:58:33 <SimonRC> ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor's_New_Clothes )
20:59:00 <oklopol> 1. we were only taught a few basic techniques 2. the test was always about the last technique taught 3. most kids do math without having any idea about it, just doing random pattern matching with the numbers
20:59:18 <oklopol> they did not solve it right, it was unsolvable, they just guessed what the teacher had meant
20:59:30 <oklopol> i have long forgotten what the point was :P
21:01:17 <oklopol> the act or instance of being kicked out... ity
21:01:35 <oklopol> i like bending words in an ugly way
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21:08:21 <ehird`> anderotinisaotamellililiphillicanosorophis
21:08:40 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
21:09:23 <jix> if a teacher makes a mistake you notice one doesn't tell it after the lesson or so...
21:09:43 <jix> like that would be no fun
21:10:37 <oklopol> i wouldn't have said anything at all, it's just she wouldn't let me omit the assignment in a test since she wanted me to get a perfect score
21:11:44 * jix likes to argue with teachers
21:11:54 <jix> luckily i have teachers that have no problem with that
21:12:10 <oklopol> i don't like arguing with anyone, it's just hard not to :D
21:12:15 <SimonRC> except the ones who actually do want to get on with it and argue in their own time
21:12:18 <oklopol> i haven't done any of those :<
21:12:28 <SimonRC> I mean, get on with the lesson now
21:15:05 <oklopol> i'll make ololobot redirect oerjan to lambdabot soon :P
21:15:15 <oklopol> and bring it here, since it's down, i see
21:15:37 <oerjan> ehird`: i am actually in #haskell, demonstrating
21:15:46 <ehird`> well you're not in #esoteric
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23:01:38 <GregorR> I wonder if there's a Unicode encoding with an "offset marker", so you can say "The following text is all offset by <x>"
23:02:01 <GregorR> That would probably make encoding in any language smaller, since the offset of the first character in any given language is a constant.
23:03:07 <GregorR> e.g. Chinese would be reduced to the offset into the list of Chinese characters, which would generally fit into two bytes rather than three.
23:03:19 <ehird`> how about extending unicode
23:03:31 <GregorR> No need to extend Unicode, just make a new encoding ...
23:05:33 <GregorR> Seriously, this makes waaaaaaaaaay too much sense to not exist ...
23:05:45 <GregorR> I mean, how often are you switching between languages so quickly that you can't have a constant offset?
23:06:00 <GregorR> I guess one of the advantages of UTF-8 is that you can take any offset and not get invalid text ...
23:09:59 <oerjan> GregorR: well Latin-based languages are not always consecutive, since they're ASCII+another page. i don't know whether other scripts are.
23:11:01 <GregorR> oerjan: Oh, that's a good point.
23:11:52 <GregorR> I'm pretty sure that the languages that are more interesting for this (e.g. Chinese/Japanese/Korean) are more contiguous, but probably not entirely (e.g. Japanese <place_word_here> is the Chinese alphabet)
23:12:06 <ehird`> place_word_here = kanji?
23:42:42 <GregorR> (When nobody talks for a while, ehird` spontaneously produces an emoticon)
23:42:56 <ehird`> Error: I have been found out
23:43:05 <ehird`> Trying to reduce 3x levels of meta-irony... (76%)
23:43:14 <ehird`> Error. Abort, Retry, Fail?
23:45:17 <ehird`> Miserably, Retry, Fail?
23:45:54 <ehird`> I don't actually know.
23:46:06 <ehird`> iirc, Abort continued your comand set
23:47:16 <ehird`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abort,_Retry,_Fail%3F
23:47:20 <ehird`> The message would prompt the user to hit "A" to abort the operation, "R" to try reading the data again, or "F" to attempt to proceed without the necessary data.
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01:45:52 <Tritonio> i tried to install them in a small partition.
01:46:04 <Tritonio> i knew that they would destroy grab
01:46:49 <Tritonio> what i didn't expect was that they would think that the partition has error that can't be fixed and that they would immediately destroy the partition table.
01:56:40 <Tritonio> oh ok i looked it up in urban dictionary... ;-)
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15:55:53 * SimonRC decides that Shaun the Sheep is hillarious
15:56:22 <ehird`> you'd think aardman would get bored doing claymation
15:56:25 <ehird`> and start selling suits or something
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16:01:14 <SimonRC> companies never get bored of anything profitable
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16:53:23 <ehird`> complex_equation_for_2hi
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17:42:32 <g4lt-sb100> ni, hanging on in quiet desparation is the english way ;P
18:03:41 * ehird` does not own a diner, but does own several dinners.
18:19:21 <bsmntbombdood> sweet, kucinich supports lowering the drinking age
18:22:58 <ehird`> it's not as if kucinich has any chance of becoming president, though
18:23:04 <ehird`> i'm not an american and even i can guess that
18:23:44 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.stencilrevolution.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18221&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
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22:06:15 <ehird`> (Random emotion produce cycle completed successfully, 2 bytes of message emitted.)
22:19:42 <ehird`> Heh, alternative to The Game: You win when you think about it, lose when you don't.
22:24:18 <SimonRC> just sometimes, he really captures the geek nature
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22:25:49 <ehird`> not like it'll be accepted though
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22:26:35 <Sgeo> What did I miss?
22:28:04 <Sgeo> Ah, the Game which I lost ty a lot, and flooding
22:44:45 * ehird` goes. Go is to the pig.
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01:26:36 <bsmntbombdood> i see you've got your eye-protective squint down well
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01:37:43 <oklopol> what fun, 3:35 am, and i have to write two essays for school <3
01:38:25 <oklopol> i did get a good 7 hours sleep during the day, so i'm not tired, but it *might* be a bit more fun to use the night for coding
01:38:33 <oklopol> also, orgies are always a good idea
01:41:27 <pikhq> 6:24 PM, and I don't have to do anything.
01:42:12 <oklopol> (if you know what i'm fixing, you are a freak.)
01:42:44 <oklopol> hmm, guess i should eat something
01:43:18 <oklopol> just did 3 math exams to compensate for my lack of attendance @ classes
01:43:32 <oklopol> hmph, why do i always get the bad times :<
01:43:46 <bsmntbombdood> [18:41] <pikhq> 6:24 PM, and I don't have to do anything.
01:44:02 <oklopol> (03:41:26) (pikhq) 6:24 PM
01:44:51 <oerjan> IM IN UR CLOCK, DILATING UR TIME
01:45:22 <oklopol> hmm... i should practise this leaving the computer thing.
01:45:39 <oklopol> actually leaving might be good practise.
01:47:44 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: s/24/42/ ;)
02:50:05 <oerjan> very little, apparently
02:50:44 * Sgeo hasn't been working on PSOX
03:19:27 <oklopol> 3 math exams, and 2 essays, and i still have time to spare!
03:20:04 <oklopol> (i guess one of my essays was 25% the requested length though...)
03:20:51 <oklopol> my black nipple hair is only 2cm now, it was like 8, but it got ripped off :<<
03:21:07 <oklopol> (just a single hair, i'm a freak)
03:21:42 <oklopol> you know an essay is good when you end it in "bukkake"
03:22:25 <oklopol> hmm, alright, i was supposed to eat something...
03:23:51 <oklopol> hmm, perhaps i should attach a bukkake link or something, the teacher might not know what it is
03:24:09 <lament> 'a picture is worth a thousand words'
03:24:56 <oklopol> indeed, i'll just print out an example
03:25:44 <oklopol> actually, i'm not sure if she'll read it, the course is just passed or failed, no grade
03:25:52 <oklopol> so... why would she bother
03:26:22 <oklopol> i'll need more sperm doners though, or it's not really bukkake :|
03:26:41 <oklopol> i wonder how that's spelled
03:27:16 <bsmntbombdood> you know what they say...a demonstration is worth 1000 pictures
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04:52:14 <GregorR> GCC-MISC. Stupid idea? Or BRILLIANT SCHEME?
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05:03:09 <pikhq> Now, I want a Turing machine implemented in Magic: The Gathering.
05:08:36 <pikhq> As in "within the rules of Magic"?
05:08:50 <pikhq> But has it been done?
05:08:56 <pikhq> (if so, that kicks ass)
05:09:04 <pikhq> (and I want to play that deck)
05:09:31 <oklopol> hmm hmm, there was something similar in the wiki, but it was just an idea, i think
05:10:19 <oklopol> there are some 50000 iirc in magic the gathering, and at least a few infinite loops have been implemented, so you can prolly do some computation :P
05:10:48 <oklopol> i know a guy who's in the finnish top10
05:11:02 <oklopol> and all my friends are all-around geeks
05:17:16 <oklopol> were you thinking like, first X cards to initialize, then Y cards to represent the actual program?
05:18:21 <oklopol> if the execution was to deterministic, you should really choose the initialization cards wisely, since it's usually actually *played*
05:18:34 <pikhq> What'd matter is if it's possible to do via the effects of cards.
05:19:10 <pikhq> Perhaps have the program cards be ones with effects that can let you pull cards from the library to your hand, so that you can actually initialise.
05:19:55 <oklopol> hmm, but you mean the player would need to be a part of the program? that would make it 1) less cool 2) more possible
05:23:05 <pikhq> The player would need to at least start the program.
05:23:32 <pikhq> Consider it like toggling bits on a PDP to get the bootloader in place.
05:26:53 <oklopol> but anyways, the problem with effects is there aren't many fully automatic effects, most require the player to make choises after playing the card
05:27:50 <pikhq> For the sake of sanity, I will assume non-tournament-legal cards may be played. . .
05:28:24 <pikhq> Allowing you to use the Mox Lotus to make land a non-issue.
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06:02:38 <bsmntbom1dood> It was the best of times, it was the worst of times,
06:02:39 <bsmntbom1dood> it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness,
06:02:39 <bsmntbom1dood> it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity,
06:02:39 <bsmntbom1dood> it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness,
06:02:39 <bsmntbom1dood> it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair,
06:02:41 <bsmntbom1dood> we had everything before us, we had nothing before us
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06:03:16 <GregorR> ... a Hamlet of Two Cities?
06:12:27 <galt> a tale of two places that are about to host walmarts
06:14:10 <GregorR> There are two cities without wal-marts?
06:14:59 <GregorR> I thought even Amishville Pennsylvania had a Wal-Mart, although it's a Wall's Marte there.
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06:32:36 <GregorR> Either I'm not very good at decoding Unicode, or my offset-based encoding concept isn't very good :P
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13:05:42 <SimonRC> How can MTG do any computation?
13:40:19 <ehird`> wow, the guy who founded Y Combinator with PG wrote the Morris worm and founded Viaweb
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16:57:57 <fax> I'm gonna run a contest for brainfuck
16:58:11 <fax> Write a program which given some string of text outputs a brainfuck program which prints that text. The aim is to produce as small a brainfuck program as you can.
16:58:31 <fax> but.. It can't be done
16:58:39 <ehird`> it's been done as a competition before
16:58:46 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: the competition
16:58:59 <fax> Where are the results?
16:59:08 <fax> I'll still try
16:59:12 <ehird`> http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/results0.txt
16:59:21 <ehird`> admittedly, the output size is shit
16:59:28 <ehird`> but, a competition for those programs has been done
16:59:42 <bsmntbombdood> oh, and fax, proving the output is the best possible is impossible
16:59:48 <fax> bsmntbombdood: Yes
17:00:04 <fax> ehird`: You won't have to use brainfuck do it though
17:02:37 <fax> bsmntbombdood: How do you know that actually
17:03:07 <fax> I assumed it based on chaitins stuff
17:03:17 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood used ACADEMIC TERMS. Critical hit! Enemy fax fainte.d
17:07:19 <fax> +[>.+<] Real random byte generator.
17:07:23 <fax> no it's not :/
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17:49:08 <bsmntbombdood> how were the strings on the brainfuck constants wiki page generated?
17:50:33 <oerjan> for the wrapping ones, someone wrote a search program i think
17:51:00 <oerjan> the non-wrapping ones are a bit hodge-podge
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18:32:55 <oerjan> some array operator, apparently
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19:05:49 <fax> http://rafb.net/p/tEDLkD38.txt
19:05:57 <fax> This is it
19:06:20 <ehird`> > would be faster than [-]
19:06:26 <fax> Uses linear memory though
19:06:33 <fax> instead of constant
19:06:44 <fax> not that it matters :p
19:07:15 <fax> > is better than [-] though
19:07:17 <fax> because it's shorter
19:11:11 <ehird`> flac is for audio data, no?
19:11:19 <fax> It is lossless
19:11:28 <fax> no way can I implement flac in bf though :/
19:11:37 <ehird`> flac in bf would be ridiculous
19:11:42 <ehird`> flac is a very complex algorithm
19:11:46 <ehird`> with a huge C implementation
19:11:56 <ehird`> maybe we are talking about a different flac.
19:12:03 <ehird`> http://flac.sourceforge.net/
19:12:11 <oklopol> (bsmntbombdood) oh, and fax, proving the output is the best possible is impossible <<< it's definately possible for any distinct string, just not the general case
19:12:36 <fax> oklopol: Really?
19:12:41 <fax> how can you
19:12:51 <bsmntbombdood> oklopol: given a program to generate a string, it's not possible to prove there's none shorter
19:13:13 <fax> Sometimes it is possible to prove it
19:13:25 <fax> It might be impossible to prove it in another case though won't it?
19:13:38 <oklopol> i always fail at this ;) anyways, it's *sometimes* possible
19:13:48 <oerjan> it will be impossible in some cases
19:13:58 <fax> oklopol: YOu might like http://www.cs.umaine.edu/~chaitin/unknowable/
19:14:03 <fax> he talks about this
19:15:40 <fax> That is a good idea
19:15:55 <fax> I thought you said the other thing
19:15:59 <fax> fax: we should invite oklopol
19:16:41 <oklopol> have you and bsmntbombdood planned to have an orgy too, fax :P
19:16:54 <oklopol> hmm, i gotta go listen to deathchain soon
19:17:02 <oklopol> my first time in a finnish bar :P
19:17:43 <oklopol> i've been in many german bars though, don't know if that's the same thing
19:17:47 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: just a joke in reference to oklopol's 18.6
19:18:53 <fax> if you want to have an orgy I can bring some guy
19:19:15 <oklopol> fax: do you happen to be a woman?
19:20:36 <oklopol> hmm... got my synth here, i should make my own version of http://www.mikseri.net/artists/speedpianosoolo.23659.php
19:20:52 <bsmntbombdood> sweden and finland together look like a flaccid cock and balls
19:21:02 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: we needed to know this.
19:21:06 <oklopol> the keys have a pretty orgastic feel to them
19:21:19 <oklopol> yes, you should see the euro coin without norway and russia...
19:21:36 <ehird`> we also needed to know this
19:22:52 <oklopol> http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Image:2euro1-dick.jpg
19:23:14 <oklopol> that's a bit deformed, actually, but the real one is almost as dicky
19:23:48 <ehird`> is there a list of all known Brainfuck->c optimizations?
19:23:54 <ehird`> i wonder if some of my ideas have already been done
19:26:20 <oklopol> oh my god speed piano soolo is great
19:26:59 <ehird`> the keys are like right next to each other
19:28:37 <oklopol> oh my god, there's gonna be people there
19:28:46 <ehird`> oklopol: it's a bash quote reference
19:29:17 <oklopol> oh, heh, i naturally assumed you were referring to speed piano soolo! :)
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19:52:55 <fax> Do you think huffman would be really hard?
19:53:10 <fax> in brainfuck
19:53:19 <GregorR> fax: Probably. No bitwise ops.
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19:58:56 <fax> I need more peopel to enter this because I'm out of god ideas
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20:26:51 <fax> Isn't there some list of brainfuck programs which have been shown to be the smallest
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20:37:09 <fax> !bf >+++++++[<+++++++++>-]<.
20:37:12 <fax> .bf >+++++++[<+++++++++>-]<.
20:37:55 <fax> !bf +>>++++++++++[<++++++++++>-]<<[>.+.++++++++++++++.++.>+++++++[<------------>-]<-.>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]<--<]
20:38:03 <GregorR> Heh, for a second I thought you'd confused EgoBot X-D
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21:23:56 <EgoBot> desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu d
21:25:39 <EgoBot> 1 ais523: daemon ul bf
21:27:31 <GregorR> I suspect that lets you run unlambda code, but daemons have the interesting property that no matter how you get the message to EgoBot, it responds in the channel the daemon was started in.
21:27:51 <ehird`> so someone wrote an unlambda program to repeat desu?
21:30:38 <fax> unlambda program to repeat desu in < 512 chars?
21:30:42 <fax> I don't think that is possible
21:31:28 <GregorR> Alternatively, a program that was running to produce that just took a very long time before dying *shrugs*
21:31:47 <fax> yes desu | tr '\n' ' '
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22:25:33 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
22:25:35 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
22:25:58 <ehird`> !qbf CAT: ALIVE OR DEAD?
22:26:00 <bsmntbombdood> !bf_txtgen Hello, Brainfuck. I like cheesy-potatoes.
22:26:15 <ehird`> !bf_txtgen Hello, brainfuck. I like huge text generation code that lags the bot.
22:29:21 <EgoBot> 597 +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++>+++>++<<<<-]>>---.<----.+++++++..+++.>>-.>++.<<++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<+++.>-.++++++++.+++++.<------------.>+++++++.<---.>----------.>++.>.<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>.<<+.---.++.------.>>.<<+++.+++++++++++++.>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.--.>.<<-.>.<++++.----.>>.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<.
22:29:31 <EgoBot> 438 ++++++++++++[>++++++>+++++++++>++++++++>++++<<<<-]>.>>+++++.<..+++.>>----.------------.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<<+++.>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++++.<+++++++++.>---.<<+++.------------------.>---.<-----------------------------------------------------.--------------.<+.>.>+.<<++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++.------.>.<--.+++++.---..++++++++++++++.+++++
22:30:00 <fax> 1093 chars :/
22:30:08 <fax> for "Hello, brainfuck. I like huge text generation code that lags the bot."
22:32:57 <fax> http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/8433/picture1uu7.png
22:33:37 <ehird`> you wrote that desu thing!
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22:43:20 <Tritonio> is there any way to make a "double" pipe?
22:43:34 <Tritonio> stin to stout of another program and vice versa.
22:43:35 <fax> !bf_txtgen Hello, Brainfuck!
22:44:00 <GregorR> Tritonio: If only there was in the shell :(
22:44:17 <GregorR> Tritonio: It can be done, of course, but there's no command-line way of doing it except for third-party apps e.g. twinpipe.
22:44:29 <fax> twinpipe exists
22:44:29 <EgoBot> 154 ++++++++++++[>++++++>++++>++++++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>.>>+++++.>..+++.<<----.------------.<------.>>>+++.<----.++++++++.+++++.--------.>+++.<---.++++++++.<+. [500]
22:44:33 * fax puts down his C editor
22:44:55 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood's method is more general but involves more typing and cleaning up :)
22:45:11 <fax> EgoBot is better than my code
22:45:24 <GregorR> EgoBot is a horrendous mess.
22:45:43 <fax> this stuff
22:45:44 <fax> [>++++++>++++>++++++++>+++++++++<<<<-]
22:45:49 <GregorR> Oh - well then that's calamari's text generator that's better, not EgoBot :P
22:45:50 <fax> This is clever
22:45:56 <GregorR> EgoBot only knows how to call other programs :)
22:46:33 <fax> I saw a java one which worked that way
22:46:51 <fax> Maybe algorithms is the wrong approach
22:46:58 <fax> I will continue anyway
22:47:00 <Tritonio> GregorR, what do you mean that it need's more cleanup?
22:47:21 <bsmntbombdood> Tritonio: you have to finish with removing the fifo
22:47:30 <GregorR> fax: That's the one EgoBot uses.
23:00:15 <pikhq> GregorR: You think maybe someone should redo EgoBot?
23:00:52 <GregorR> I wouldn't complain so long as it maintained the ability to drop in external interpreters *shrugs*
23:03:07 <pikhq> I'm assuming that it'd just run through a config file specifying which external interpreters are available, how to call them, and what name to expose to the IRC channel.
23:04:40 <fax> What language[s] will you write EgoBot in?
23:07:09 <ehird`> i will redo egobot, i guess
23:07:13 <ehird`> kajirbot was posed as a replacement for it
23:07:16 <ehird`> but development stagnated
23:07:21 <ehird`> i could pick it up again and rename it if anyone wanted
23:08:16 <fax> Please rename it
23:08:29 <ehird`> i meant rename it to Egobot
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23:10:01 <fax> like actually
23:12:49 <bsmntbombdood> i've never done anything like that in scheme, might be fun
23:12:49 <ehird`> i was just replying to
23:12:50 <ehird`> (11:10:03 PM) pikhq: GregorR: You think maybe someone should redo EgoBot?
23:12:51 <GregorR> You can make an EgoBot replacement, sure, but Ego* things are usually mine.
23:13:13 <GregorR> ehird`: Redo != Reimplement precisely down to the name.
23:13:32 <ehird`> GregorR: I interpreted redo = reimplement
23:13:47 <GregorR> ehird`: Reimplement != Reimplemement and give it the same name
23:13:49 <fax> bsmntbombdood: No!
23:14:00 <ehird`> I would probably go for scheme, myself.
23:14:04 <GregorR> ehird`: jikes is a reimplementation of javac, but it's not called javac.
23:14:05 <fax> because it's C
23:14:31 <ehird`> The bot does not need to do much, it just needs to communicate with IRC, have some basic commands for controlling subprocesses and run some external programs
23:14:46 <fax> I would write it in sh
23:14:49 <ehird`> C, in this case, is completely useless and will just add lots of stupid mallocs() etc that are really not needed
23:15:04 <fax> bsmntbombdood: No not really
23:15:19 <fax> bsmntbombdood: It's fine but it's ruining too many peoples potential
23:15:40 <fax> bsmntbombdood: no I like C and I like writing C but I hate what it does to other people
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23:19:53 <ehird`> kajirbot isn't catchy enough for a name
23:20:03 <ehird`> i think everyone thinks that
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23:20:54 <ehird`> you know what would be cool
23:20:57 <ehird`> a public irc logging service
23:21:22 <ehird`> you'd go and register the channel on its site/some bot, it'd verify you owned it, then put a logging bot in there and expose a web interface
23:21:43 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: with public registration?
23:21:50 <ehird`> ircbrowse doesn't let anyone automatically register their channel
23:22:05 <ehird`> link to register page?
23:23:18 <ehird`> and he manually does it?
23:23:26 <ehird`> so is that "automatically"?
23:23:28 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood's definition of "automatic" isn't quite "automatic"
23:23:28 <pikhq> ehird`: Who needs malloc?
23:23:39 <pikhq> Just use GNU C's variable-sized arrays. ;)
23:23:57 <GregorR> Just use D's dynamic arrays.
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23:24:07 <ehird`> pikhq: Right now there is the very essence of sorrow and dispair ripping open your body.
23:24:10 <ehird`> pikhq: I hope you enjoy it.
23:24:11 <pikhq> Well, fine. If you need it to work after a function *returns*, you'd need to malloc. . .
23:24:34 <pikhq> What's *wrong* with int array[size_here];?
23:24:43 <fax> pikhq: ... lol
23:24:52 <GregorR> pikhq: int[size_here] array; // is better :P
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23:25:00 <ehird`> pikhq: i guess you never, oh, get keyboard input or anything.
23:25:00 <pikhq> Portability issues aside.
23:25:16 <pikhq> ehird`: There's a good time for malloc. . .
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23:25:26 <fax> You don't write an IRC bot in C
23:25:33 <pikhq> Although getline is a good deal simpler to deal with.
23:25:36 <fax> (I know.. I have but it was stupid)
23:25:46 <ehird`> scheme would win at this
23:25:52 <fax> That's even worse :|
23:26:02 * GregorR <3 C++ ... with the hatred :P
23:26:09 * pikhq likes C *with GNU extensions*. . .
23:26:33 * fax prefers Prolog
23:26:44 <fax> pikhq: Do you use case 'a'..'z' : ?
23:26:46 <GregorR> fax: I have to assume that's a joke :P
23:26:58 <Tritonio> hmm. should this: nc -l -p 23291 -vv | lua
23:26:59 <pikhq> fax: It makes a small handful of things easier.
23:27:07 <fax> I h8 your C code
23:27:09 <Tritonio> redirect the stdout of nc to lua?
23:27:11 <pikhq> Although the proper syntax is "case 'a'...'z':"
23:27:29 <GregorR> Tritonio: Uhhh, yes ... won't lua take a program by default, so that'll just accept any ol' program from a TCP port?
23:27:54 <Tritonio> but i still cannot run anything
23:27:55 <GregorR> Tritonio: Yes, but that's a terrible idea :P
23:28:01 <fax> echo "1 + 1;" | lua
23:28:03 <fax> would have to work
23:28:05 <pikhq> fax: . . . Because if(c > 'a' && c < 'z') is simpler to read?
23:28:09 <bsmntbombdood> lua probably needs an argument to read from stding
23:28:13 * fax forgot lua
23:28:24 <fax> pikhq: Because something written in the appropriate language is easier to read!
23:28:49 <ehird`> maybe i should write the bot in syntaxless!
23:28:53 <ehird`> god, that'd be so ugly
23:28:58 <pikhq> So, you're not arguing that using that is bad C style, but that using C is itself bad.
23:29:04 <ehird`> even i know stack-based languages are not really that usable :P
23:29:19 <bsmntbombdood> did anyone see my request for a syntaxless brainfuck?
23:29:32 <GregorR> ehird`: Stack-based languages are excellent target languages.
23:29:46 <GregorR> ehird`: That is, it's much easier for a computer to write code for a stack-based language than for a human.
23:29:53 <ehird`> GregorR: Sure, sure. But not for writing an IRC bot ;)
23:30:00 <ehird`> Especially how primitive my language is.
23:30:14 <GregorR> Sorry, had to defend it since Plof3's internal language is a stacklang :P
23:30:16 <ehird`> [ code ] ' func bind <-- function definition
23:30:16 <pikhq> Fucking brilliant. . .
23:30:35 <pikhq> By the time that the latest anti-Linux patent case is even getting *heard*, the patent will have expired.
23:30:55 <bsmntbombdood> GregorR: EgoBot uses netcat piped in or something right?
23:31:10 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: Major cheatzering.
23:31:45 <ehird`> however netcat is kinda fun
23:31:55 <GregorR> I didn't want to deal with sockets in C++ ^^
23:32:15 <fax> bsmntbombdood: You have to compile with -DGAPING_SECURITY_HOLE
23:32:29 <ehird`> netcat like that is kind of cool
23:32:32 <fax> though writing nc -e is a one liner in perl :)
23:32:32 <ehird`> in that you can run simulated runs
23:32:35 <fax> bsmntbombdood: It is
23:32:36 <ehird`> by writing a fake file
23:32:38 <fax> bsmntbombdood: well
23:32:44 <fax> bsmntbombdood: It's part of a gaping security hoe
23:32:54 <bsmntbombdood> fax: it's just as a security hole as using sockets...
23:33:02 <fax> bsmntbombdood: if you have perl with the net module you can implement nc -e anyway
23:33:05 <ehird`> i wonder if anyone wrote a (netcat func) function for scheme ;)
23:33:32 <ehird`> (netcat (lambda (n) ...)) ; n is some kind of stream, or line, or whatever.
23:33:58 <ehird`> but that passes a socket
23:34:06 <Tritonio> i still have problems.... lua | nc -l -p 23291 -vv works as it should.
23:34:27 <ehird`> but its still just normal tcp-ness
23:34:31 <ehird`> it's not as simple as netcat
23:34:36 <Tritonio> but this: nc -l -p 23291 -vv | lua doesn't work...
23:34:46 <ehird`> ok, show me some example call-with-tcp-socket code
23:36:02 <GregorR> Tritonio: lua might want to read until EOF, in this case closing the socket.
23:36:26 <ehird`> how is netcat not secure, anyway?
23:36:28 <ehird`> i never really understood that
23:36:40 <fax> you can exec it from php
23:36:46 <fax> beam a shell back..
23:36:49 <Tritonio> ehird`, there a tool called cryptcat i think
23:36:50 <fax> pretty easy
23:37:03 <ehird`> fax: isn't that just a system configuration problem
23:37:11 <Tritonio> like nc but with with twofish encryption... (or blowfish?)
23:37:12 <fax> ehird`: It's one of many problems
23:37:16 <bsmntbombdood> ehird`: you just use (read-char stream) and (write-char stream)
23:37:17 <GregorR> fax: That's not an insecurity in netcat, that's an insecurity in whatever PHP script you're exploiting.
23:37:25 <fax> GregorR: Yes
23:37:50 <ehird`> just ./netcat -e MyIRCBot should have 0 security flaws, right?
23:37:59 <fax> I wasn't joking btw
23:38:10 <fax> -DGAPING_SECURITY_HOLE is an -actual- build flag you can pass
23:38:12 <Tritonio> GregorR, you must be right... i hope there is some switch to change that behavior in lua
23:38:19 <GregorR> ehird`: It has $NUMBER_OF_FLAWS_IN_MyIRCBot
23:38:31 <fax> I wasn't like suggesting it was insecure.. I'm just saying you need that build to use -e
23:38:33 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: then it'd be a retarded program
23:38:48 <ehird`> GregorR: you'd have $NUMBER_OF_FLAWS_IN_MyIRCBot even without netcat.
23:38:54 <ehird`> so netcat isn't the problem here, it's the program
23:39:04 <ehird`> then phooey to everyone paranoid about it
23:39:10 <fax> I wasn't paranoid about it
23:39:13 <fax> It's a joke in the source code..
23:39:23 <fax> like I said I didn't make it up
23:39:32 <fax> http://technopedia.info/tech/2006/02/22/everything-you-need-to-know-about-netcat.html
23:39:38 <fax> Look at the makefile
23:40:01 <ehird`> netcat -e seems to just be inetd, then
23:40:07 <ehird`> so why not use inetd i must wonder =)
23:41:08 <ehird`> (what is the difference between netcat -e and inetd?)
23:41:31 <GregorR> ehird`: netcat -e is one-time, inetd is persistent, opens multiple sockets as-necessary, etc?
23:41:54 <ehird`> inetd probably better then
23:41:56 * pikhq runs sudo chroot su unprivileged netcat -l 12345 -e /bin/sh
23:42:06 <GregorR> ehird`: inetd is better if you're making a server, certainly
23:42:15 <pikhq> netcat -e is more of a client. . .
23:42:20 * ehird` runs just plain sudo netcat -l 12345 -e /bin/sh
23:42:32 <pikhq> Or a server for which you want only one instance. Ever.
23:42:32 <ehird`> GregorR: an irc bot is simultaneously a server and client :)
23:42:56 <GregorR> ehird`: It's a server in the touchy-feely human sense, but it's only a client in the networking sense.
23:43:18 <GregorR> In the same way that the X11 server is, in fact, a server, despite stupid people complaining about it :P
23:43:37 <ehird`> x11 is fundamentally broken, never use it as an example :P
23:43:56 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: it runs on your machine and serves a networking server
23:44:00 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: It listens on a socket for connections.
23:44:04 <ehird`> it just so happens you connect to it locally most of the time
23:44:17 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: Also, it provides the service of a framebuffer to clients that want it *shrugs*
23:44:20 <fax> GregorR: No I love Prolog!
23:44:31 <fax> GregorR: swipl has a x interface
23:44:33 <fax> GregorR: ;D
23:44:39 <fax> GregorR: They even implement an Emacs in Prolog
23:45:00 <ehird`> prolog is interesting academically
23:45:01 <GregorR> fax: wow liek it mst b good than lawl!
23:45:18 <fax> ehird`: Rubbish!
23:45:24 <ehird`> also having an emacs written in it is one of the main reasons not to use a language ;)
23:45:42 <fax> Emacs dislikers!
23:45:43 <ehird`> Heck, it's permanently damaged Lisp's reputation!
23:45:48 <bsmntbombdood> ehird`: of course. that means doen't use C or lisp.
23:46:08 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: one of the main reasons not to
23:46:20 <GregorR> fax: Besides, I'm sure they didn't implement EMACS the OS, just a small subset of the default text editor for EMACS.
23:46:51 <GregorR> When you replace the text editor, it's really a fairly-decent VM-based OS *shrugs*
23:46:53 <ehird`> i've actually seen people in #emacs call emacs an OS
23:46:59 <ehird`> like it's a >positive<!
23:47:01 <GregorR> That's because it /is/ an OS.
23:47:03 <fax> I use Emacs as an OS
23:47:04 <ehird`> soon the homepage will say that, i guess
23:47:14 <ehird`> fax: lots of people do
23:47:20 <fax> When I have to use these computers in the lab I just run emacs fullscreen
23:47:23 <GregorR> Emacs is an OS running on top of a Lisp VM which a lot of people happen to use for its text editor.
23:47:24 <ehird`> these people are idiots, too, but hey
23:47:52 <ehird`> the problem with the emacs/os analogy, is that when you look it as an OS
23:47:55 <ehird`> emacs is a pretty shitty os
23:48:12 <pikhq> Emacs is an OS running on top of a Lisp VM which has an editor as its main UI metaphore.
23:49:25 <ehird`> it's not a very good one, though :)
23:49:50 <ehird`> with a bit of glue code, you could actually run real emacs as an OS couldn't you?
23:49:59 <ehird`> as in, not a clone on the bare metal like many
23:50:03 <ehird`> but real gnu emacs/xemacs
23:50:16 <ehird`> right but that's linux
23:50:20 <ehird`> i mean no OS running at all
23:50:24 <pikhq> What you need to do is implement Elisp on bare metal.
23:50:29 <fax> I want a bootable emacs/linux
23:50:32 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: sure, but you can write it yourself
23:50:39 <fax> bsmntbombdood: where is it?
23:50:45 <ehird`> i mean, if a half-decent OSdever did it, and then implemented, say, an installation wizard
23:50:50 <ehird`> then we could investigate emacs as an OS
23:50:55 <GregorR> fax: If I had any interest at all, I could make one in a few hours :P
23:50:59 <ehird`> objectively, because we wouldn't be thinking "oh this is a text editor"
23:51:14 <fax> GregorR: A few hours to burn a CD?
23:51:23 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: linux, though, is a huge-liek-xbox portion of an OS
23:51:26 <GregorR> A few hours to /make/ the distro.
23:51:29 <ehird`> emacs would no longer be the os
23:51:53 <GregorR> Idonno, I've always considered the kernel to be a fairly incidental part of the OS *shrugs*
23:51:57 <ehird`> small (well, big, but not linux-big) glue kernel code + emacs = Emacs actually as an OS
23:52:25 <ehird`> the more i think that that would be an AWESOME project
23:52:35 <fax> bsmntbombdood: Yeah I couldn't find it
23:52:42 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: that's no the point
23:52:54 <ehird`> linux-which-just-runs-emacs is linux which just runs emacs
23:53:05 <ehird`> emacs-on-bare-metal-with-just-some-extra-glue-code is emacs as an os
23:55:21 <ehird`> i type really fast when i can be bothered
23:55:29 <ehird`> i'm still much faster than most people even when i'm not bothered
23:55:38 <ehird`> (i am not bothered right now.)
23:55:59 <GregorR> We should set up a voicemail group chat wooooh
23:55:59 <ehird`> I can type just as fast as talking, actually a little faster.
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23:56:08 <ehird`> When I try, of course.
23:56:18 <pikhq> ehird, I do the same. . .
23:56:21 <GregorR> Now let's argue until our faces turn blue about the protocol to use!
23:56:26 <pikhq> I also type much faster than I hand-write. w00ts.
23:56:36 <bsmntbombdood> you can do getto voip by just piping /dev/mic or whatever through netcat
23:56:41 <ehird`> when trying, my typing speed has maxed around 152WPM
23:56:58 * pikhq does 70. You cheat.
23:57:35 <ehird`> Actually, the WPM calculator was really accurate. It displayed some random text from its database that you couldn't see first-time, and counted mistakes for you
23:57:40 <ehird`> This thing: http://labs.jphantom.com/wpm/
23:57:50 <ehird`> I did lots of tests with it, and my max was 152
23:58:44 <ehird`> what have i got to gain from lying about my typing speed?
00:00:16 <ehird`> i'm not as silly as to lie about typing speed
00:00:22 <fax> Wow! Your typing speed (with 4 mistakes) is: 90.93 wpm
00:00:35 <fax> I don't know :|
00:00:40 <fax> I'll try again
00:00:57 <GregorR> Jabbin == compatible with Google Voice, might work on GNU/Linux and is F/OSS.
00:01:00 * ehird` checks results... my cpm was 545-627
00:01:42 <RodgerTheGreat> Wow! Your typing speed (with 4 mistakes) is: 76.41 wpm 307.5 cpm
00:02:18 <ehird`> it's funny, i use bad old qwerty and my typing speeds are generally a lot faster than most dvorak users
00:02:24 <ehird`> especially the ones that go on and on and on about it ;)
00:02:30 <ehird`> i want to switch to dvorak sometime though
00:02:50 <fax> what is that?
00:03:08 <fax> what is cpm
00:03:16 <GregorR> 2 mistakes, 119.79 wpm, 537.6 cpm
00:03:40 * GregorR tries to do it with no mistakes ...
00:04:20 <GregorR> 126.5 wpm with 3 mistakes :P
00:04:42 <ehird`> i just did it again... I am very tired, so my muscles aren't very fast right now, but I did give it a half-decent shot: 1 mistake, 135.48 wpm, 624.55 cpm
00:04:44 <GregorR> Must ... get ... no mistakes ...
00:05:13 <ehird`> i guess i just type really, really fast :P
00:05:20 <RodgerTheGreat> Too bad there isn't a typing tester that uses sourcecode as a benchmark.
00:05:30 <ehird`> i am actually really slow at typing code
00:05:31 <GregorR> 144.23 wpm/608.57 cpm with no mistakes
00:05:35 <ehird`> I have to think almost every line
00:05:35 <RodgerTheGreat> choose a language you're familiar with, and then pound away
00:05:49 <GregorR> I type much faster than I'm actually capable of coding *shrugs*
00:05:49 <ehird`> but that's just because I'm deciding what to write, of course
00:05:58 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm quite a bit faster at *typing* when I'm coding, and I've noticed I tend to make fewer typos.
00:06:21 <GregorR> Going back to voice chat :P Jabbin == compatible with Google Voice, might work on GNU/Linux and is F/OSS.
00:06:34 <ehird`> nobody's up for a voice chat :P
00:06:50 <GregorR> Oh come on, I /hate/ my voice and I still like voice chat :P
00:07:19 <ehird`> I like voice chats, but not when I am tired and bleh.
00:07:21 <RodgerTheGreat> I've also noticed an interesting trend with typos in IRC- the vast majority of the incorrect letters (or letter sequences) I type are phonetically equivalent.
00:07:37 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: ahahahahhahahha
00:08:06 <ehird`> i literally rofl'd, except i leaned back on my chair probably too far instead of rolling on the floor
00:08:38 <ehird`> also i read "fings" as "figs" first
00:08:41 <ehird`> which was even more hilarious
00:09:30 <RodgerTheGreat> this needs to become a new in-joke. "Aw, man- that test totally fucked my figs!" "No way! You're fucking my figs!"
00:09:59 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: There's a .deb on the jabbin web site.
00:10:39 <GregorR> apt-get install <foo> is executing arbitrary code
00:10:45 <GregorR> RodgerTheGreat: Yeah, unfortunate *sigh*
00:10:51 <ehird`> GregorR: O NOES!!121212
00:11:05 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: i wholehartedly agree
00:11:08 <GregorR> Is there a Google-voice-alike for OS X?
00:11:13 <RodgerTheGreat> we could just all load up skype- it has good support across all platforms
00:11:25 <ehird`> on windows they used to send off your whole bios to their servers
00:11:36 <ehird`> and also they scan /etc/password and firefox profiles on linux
00:11:43 <ehird`> firefox profile!! why does skype need to access that?
00:11:56 <ehird`> shady, and i don't like their business model, so fuck skype
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00:13:59 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: Uh, I have a Google Voice account, do you?
00:15:37 <ehird`> i hope many fig fucking will ensue
00:16:04 <GregorR> Hrm, I'm having trouble connecting to gtalk >_>
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00:18:04 <RodgerTheGreat> I have a google talk client set up. Where are we connecting?
00:18:36 <GregorR> Oh, there we go, now I'm online.
00:19:20 <GreaseMonkey> bsmntbombdood, what library should i use for making a python IRC bot?
00:26:48 <fax> Why not write a bot in an esolang ?
00:33:09 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: There's a howto on using Jabbin for google talk on Jabbin's home page.
00:33:26 * GregorR is sure as hell not using Skype >_>
00:34:41 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: "Configure for GTalk?"
00:36:56 <oklopol> and i get quite self-conscious at typing tests
00:37:15 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: I'm actually at work right now X-D
00:39:22 <GregorR> So I'm in a public setting, and talking loudly would annoy people?
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00:48:18 <GreaseMonkey> mind you, robomonkey had its commands coded in brainsecks
00:52:02 <GreaseMonkey> bsmntbombdood, how do i set the port number of a socket in python?
00:53:43 <oklopol> i'll do some sleeping now ->
01:11:54 <pikhq> I win at obfuscated HTML.
01:12:01 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/ob.html
01:12:06 <pikhq> It's valid. It doesn't have < in it.
01:12:28 <fax> howis that valid?
01:12:44 <pikhq> SGML null-end-tags.
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01:13:00 <fax> It doesn't work
01:13:07 -!- puzzlet has joined.
01:13:08 <fax> my browser sucks
01:13:19 <pikhq> That's a bug in every browser in existence, not in my HTML. :p
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01:16:19 <GregorR> Um ... SGML is a proper superset of HTML ...
01:16:33 <GregorR> Which is to say: Just because it's valid SGML doesn't mean its' valid HTML.
01:17:53 <GregorR> so the validator is happy >_O
01:18:03 <GregorR> I think that says more about the validator being el crapolla then anything else :P
01:18:09 <pikhq> In this case, it's also valid HTML, since the HTML specification and document-type definition do not do anything about the SGML *syntax*.
01:18:31 <pikhq> The HTML specs *themselves* explicitly state that my kind of abuse is quite valid (if unrecommended).
01:28:17 <fax> What is the smallest brainfuck program which you cannot prove terminates or not?
01:29:31 <fax> Why? I didn't intent it to be
01:29:52 <lament> fax: i doubt you can always prove that you cannot prove whether it terminates or not
01:29:56 <pikhq> lament: I assume that he means "a human can't prove terminates or not", not a Turing machine.
01:30:16 <pikhq> And the shortest way to pull that off is to use the nondeterminism of ",". ;)
01:30:58 <lament> fax: for example, consider a program that consecutively looks at every even integer
01:31:03 <lament> fax: and tries to break it into two primes
01:31:08 <lament> fax: once it fails, it halts.
01:31:23 <fax> Very nice :D
01:31:28 <lament> fax: does this program halt or not? I have no idea. Can it be proven? I have no idea.
01:31:30 <fax> But this will be a large program!
01:32:27 <lament> the point remains that we don't know whether it halts or not, but we suspect that eventually it will be proven that it doesn't halt.
01:37:34 <pikhq> lament: Also, he asked what's the smallest program that can be proven that it doesn't halt, not whether any arbitrary program *can* be proven to do so.
01:39:14 <fax> I got interested in program size and stuff
01:39:26 <fax> it seems like a bad thing to be interested in :p
01:41:39 <pikhq> Brainfuck golf == good.
01:41:54 <fax> I wrote this code http://paste.lisp.org/display/49075#2
01:42:08 <fax> but I think I'll try another approach tommorow
01:45:21 <fax> the genetic algorithm beats me sometimes though
01:45:27 <fax> quite often..
01:46:34 <fax> I want to see other peoples approach to tis
02:01:16 <GreaseMonkey> bsmntbombdood: it's a challenge to make the smallest version of a program possible
02:01:31 <fax> I think my challange is meta-golf though :p
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02:44:58 <GregorR> Now that I'm at home, somebody help me test if this Google Talk client works :P
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13:27:18 <ehird`> wow /me looking at earlier logs
13:27:33 <ehird`> that piemonkey bot stored cmds as strings of source code!!!
13:39:27 <fax> !bf_text Hello world
13:39:43 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
13:39:45 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
13:41:21 <ehird`> where the heck is my blahbot source
13:44:15 -!- blahbot` has joined.
13:46:13 <ehird`> egobot's txtgen is realllllllly slow
13:47:09 <ehird`> %bf +.++++++++++++++[>+++++>++++++>++++++++>++<<<<-]>-----.++.>.<++++++.++++++.-.>>>++++.<++++.<+++++++++++++++++.>-.+.[-]+.
13:47:26 <ehird`> %bf +.[-]++++++++++++++[>+++++>++++++>++++++++>++<<<<-]>-----.++.>.<++++++.++++++.-.>>>++++.<++++.<+++++++++++++++++.>-.+.[-]+.
13:47:51 <fax> %bf >++++++++[<++++++++>-]<+.>++++[<++++>-]<+.-----------.-.++.>+++++[<-------->-]<+.
13:47:53 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit).
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13:48:12 <ehird`> blahbot has a helpful brainfuck syntax-checker too, without running code
13:48:43 -!- blahbot` has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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13:53:02 <fax> %bf >++++[<++++++++>-]<+.>++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<-.---.+++++++.++++.
13:53:05 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
13:53:07 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
13:54:01 <ehird`> now make a program (F) for blahbot`, which will run egobot's !bf with a program (G), where G will send the original program F to blahbot via %bf
13:55:34 <fax> %bf >++++[<++++++++>-]<+.>++++++++[<++++++++>-]<+.++++.>+++++++[<---------->-]<.>+++++[<++++++>-]<.>+++[<------>-]<-....>++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++[<------>-]<-.>++++[<---->-]<-........>++++[<+++++>-]<-.>++++[<---->-]<-.>++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>++++[<-------->-]<-.>++++[<---->-]<-.+++.
13:55:50 <fax> there is not enough msg
13:56:14 <ehird`> yeah, i definately think F is too complex to fit into a message
13:56:17 <ehird`> it would have to quine itself
13:56:56 <ehird`> F's output would have to be: !bf <G>, and G's output would have to be: %bf <F>
13:57:01 <ehird`> that's some crazy delayed quining
13:57:45 <ehird`> ... if you can write it, even if it is over the message limit
14:06:37 <oklopol> there's a 410 character quine in bf
14:07:04 <oklopol> hmm... double-quining might be a bit harder in brainfuck than normal quining
14:07:05 <ehird`> it isnt actually quining
14:07:13 <ehird`> i'll show an example, wait
14:08:01 <ehird`> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1192280870.html fully explained
14:08:36 <oklopol> i'm not sure how anyone could not have known that was what you were talking about
14:08:59 <ehird`> well. the quine is delayed by one step.
14:09:49 <oklopol> i think you can do that with extra 100 characters...
14:10:09 <EgoBot> java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: n must be positive
14:10:20 <fax> !bf_txtgen Hello world
14:10:25 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
14:10:27 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
14:11:25 <EgoBot> 44 +++++++++++[>+++>+++++++++>><<<<-]>.>-.++++. [332]
14:11:27 <fax> !bf >++++[<++++++++>-]<+.>++++++++[<++++++++>-]<+.++++.
14:11:27 <EgoBot> 104 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++><<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------. [767]
14:11:43 <oklopol> !bf +++++++++++[>+++>+++++++++>><<<<-]>.>-.++++.
14:12:27 <ehird`> oklopol: use %bf instead of !bf
14:12:28 <oklopol> hmm, actually you can probably use the code to produce the actual source code characters to reduce that into some 15 characters
14:12:28 <fax> !bf >++++++[<++++++>-]<+.>++++++[<++++++++++>-]<+.++++.>+++++++[<---------->-]<.+.>++++++++[<++++++++>-]<+.++++.>+++++++[<---------->-]<.+++++.>++++++[<++++++++++>-]<+.++++.>+++++++[<---------->-]<.+.>++++++++[<++++++++>-]<+.++++.>+++++++[<---------->-]<.>++++++++[<++++++++++>-]<-.
14:12:30 <ehird`> since that's how the loop works
14:12:37 <fax> that was stupid
14:12:45 <ehird`> it's not as simple as "!bf QUINE"
14:12:54 <oklopol> ehird`: 1. you have to do both 2. i'm an idiot, but i'm not *that* stupid.
14:13:06 <oklopol> really, you think i haven't made quine loops?
14:13:19 <ehird`> (PROGRAM F:) write out "!bf (PROGRAM G)"
14:13:19 <ehird`> (PROGRAM G:) write out "%bf (PROGRAM F)"
14:13:23 <ehird`> it's the extra !bf and %bf
14:13:55 <oklopol> i was just demonstrating how little code you need to produce !bf and %bf.
14:14:15 <ehird`> but you have to incorporate that in the quine
14:14:40 <oklopol> yes, but it is not considerably harder than just writing a quine.
14:15:30 <oklopol> it is a bit harder, but the shortest quine i found is 410 characters, there's still almost 100 characters to use.
14:15:52 <ehird`> except, er, do it in #esoteric-blah
14:15:56 <fax> %bf >++++[<++++++++>-]<+.>++++++++[<++++++++>-]<+.++++.>+++++++[<---------->-]<.+++++++++++.....................................+++.---.............................................................+++.---....+++.>++++[<++++>-]<.>+++[<------>-]<-.......>++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++[<------>-]<-.---------------..........>++++[<++++>-]<+.>++++[<---->-]<-.>++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>++++[<-------->-]<-.--------------.---.+++.
14:15:56 <blahbot`> !bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++.>+++++++[<---------->-]<.+.
14:16:02 <oklopol> lol like i could ever make a brainfuck quine ;)
14:16:10 <ehird`> fax: you're approaching it fsat
14:16:22 <ehird`> you just need to make blahbot's output be a program that prints the original input, heh.
14:16:27 <oklopol> that was not my point, my point was you can do it in 512 characters, if you can do it at all :)
14:16:41 <fax> oklopol: I find that very hard to beleive
14:16:45 <ehird`> how do you make egobot join a channel
14:17:04 <fax> only 3^512 possibilities!
14:17:12 <ehird`> let's enumerate them all
14:17:58 <oklopol> 8 options for each, 512 characters.
14:18:14 <fax> I keep making mistakes like that today
14:18:39 <fax> 8^512 is far too many to check
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14:19:59 <oklopol> 1.05^512 might be mappable, if you'd just need a trivial checking operation, however, the checking operator would need to be an oracle ;)
14:20:15 <oklopol> so i don't think brute force is the way in this case
15:01:06 * SimonRC thinks that the Eureka master password itsn't very secure
15:01:30 <SimonRC> I just found out where the number came from
15:02:09 <SimonRC> aha, here it is: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1060051/trivia
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17:46:17 <SimonRC> I can help memorising passwords sometimes
17:46:40 <SimonRC> I only put it into Google to see if anyone was discussing it
17:49:08 <RodgerTheGreat> the above is a username/password combo used in the first level
17:49:47 <RodgerTheGreat> I even remember some of the passwords from later in the game, which makes replays amusing to watch
17:50:19 <RodgerTheGreat> "how the FUCK did you know the security system's pass was 'reindeerflotilla'?"
19:14:04 <RodgerTheGreat> http://music.machinaesupremacy.com/machinae_supremacy-sidology_3-apex_ultima.ogg <- frickin' awesome
19:30:51 <SimonRC> I was going "heh" at your deu sex anecdote
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20:15:27 <ihope> bsmntbombdood: you'll have to give him your address so he can ship it to you.
20:16:43 <oerjan> ship it by icbm. guaranteed hot!
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20:26:36 <ihope> Store it in a vacuum flask!
20:42:35 <ihope> Might be a little dried out upon arrival, though.
20:43:14 <ihope> (Why doesn't the lid of a vacuum flask also contain a vacuum?)
20:46:53 <ehird`> store it in a black hole
20:46:58 <ehird`> only problem: getting it out again
20:47:51 <ihope> Pff, it's easy to get stuff out of a black hole.
20:47:55 <ihope> The problem is turning it back into food.
20:48:08 <ehird`> you've got something out of a black hole?
20:48:14 <ehird`> physicists want to see you
20:48:35 <ihope> What, Hawking radiation's been disproven?
20:48:41 <ihope> (Or disproved, if you want to go that route.)
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00:10:52 <Corun> ++++++++++++++[->++>+++++>+++++++>++++++++>+++++++++><<<<<<]>>++.>+++.>>-----.<<<<++++.>>.>>---.<<.>++.>+++.<---.-.<.<<+.
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00:12:02 <Corun> I just finished my String -> Brainfuck converter
00:12:09 <Corun> In case you couldn't tell :-)
00:12:23 <Corun> (Not written in Brainfuck, unfortunately, ooooh no...)
00:12:24 <RodgerTheGreat> I assume the above is your output? looks pretty decent
00:12:41 <bsmntbombdood> !bf ++++++++++++++[->++>+++++>+++++++>++++++++>+++++++++><<<<<<]>>++.>+++.>>-----.<<<<++++.>>.>>---.<<.>++.>+++.<---.-.<.<<+.
00:15:00 <Corun> What happens if you feed EgoBot some infinitely printing bf?
00:15:55 <Corun> (I just started my uni course, they're teaching us haskell so I'm practicing it)
00:16:07 <Corun> Errrr, hard to explain :-)
00:16:36 <Corun> I generate a bunch of close values to the chars in the first 5-10 cells
00:16:53 <Corun> Then I move to the cell with the closest value and add or subtract until it's right, then I print it
00:18:35 <Corun> And the "><" can disappear too
00:18:49 <ehird`> Corun: put this text in: "The quick brown fox - a delicacy in some countries - will be jumping over the lazy dog just in time for the annual lazy-dog jumping contest of 2007. In other news, flooble gabby ziggy."
00:19:37 <Corun> !bf ++++++++[->++++>++++++>+++++++++>++++++++++++>+++++++++++++>++++++++++++++>+++++++++++++++><<<<<<<<]>>>++++++++++++.>>.---.<<<<.>>>>>+.>---.<<++++.<+++.>++.<<<<.>>>-.>>+.---.>++.<-.<<<<<.>>>++++.>>+.>+.<<<<<<.>---.<.>>>-----.<<<.>>>+++.+.>+.---.<--.--.++.>>>+.<<<<<<.>>>>.>-.<<<<<.>>>>>+++++.----.--.<<++.<<<.>>>--.>>++.>----.<-.>-.--.<<.<++.>>>+.<<<<<<.>.<.>>>>>>++++.<<.>--..<<<<<.>>>---.+++.<<<.>>>>+.>>--.<+.+++.<-.>--.<<++.<<<.>>>>>
00:19:37 <Corun> +.>+.<<<--.>>+++.<<<<<.>>>>>++.<-.<.<<<.>>>>++++.<----.>>>++++.-.<<<<<<.>>>+++.>+++.<+++.<<<.>>>+++.>>+.--.+.<<<<<.>>>-.>-.<<<<.>>>>>.<<.>-.<----.<<<.>>>+.>++.>--.<<<<<.>>>>>++.<<++.---.<<<.>>>----.>-..>+.<<.>--.<<<<.>>>>.<.>>>+.-.<<<<<.>>+++.>+++.<+++.<<<.>>>+++.>>.<--.+++.<-.>--.<--.<<<.>>>----.>+.-.>-.<<++.>>-.+.<<<<<.>>>>+.<+.<<<.>+++++.--..+++++++.---------.<.>>-----------.>>-.<<<<.>>>>+.>.<<++.---.>>--.<<<<<.>>>>-.<.>>>--.<+.<<<<--
00:19:37 <Corun> .<.>>>+.>--.+++..<----.>---.<+++.<<<.>>>++.------.+..>>>++.<<<<<<.>>>>>>+.<<---.--..>>-.<<<<<++.
00:19:39 <EgoBot> The quick brown fox - a delicacy in some countries - will be jumping
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00:19:56 <Corun> Too much for irc :-)
00:20:07 <ehird`> that's really short for that text
00:20:13 <ehird`> i haven't seen output that small for text that big
00:20:48 <Corun> I've been thinking on the problem all afternoon, a few friends and I were having a contest, ya see :-)
00:21:03 <bsmntbombdood> how do you decide the number of cells to use, and their initial values?
00:21:03 <ehird`> really? fax made a contest for that yesterday.
00:21:16 <Corun> Er, yeah. He's one of the friends
00:21:19 <bsmntbombdood> Corun: what a coincidence, fax just started a contest like that
00:23:08 <Corun> Erm, it doesn't decide how many, it just uses a cell for each multiple of the main number that is needed
00:23:54 <Corun> The program find a number, (I call it the "factor")
00:24:22 <Corun> multiples of this number are used to fill the cells
00:24:34 <ehird`> how does it find the number
00:26:09 <Corun> For the number 8 to 20 it finds the sum of the mods each character with the number. Lowest sum is generally the best factor
00:26:57 <Corun> I have to start at 8 or there abouts because, obviously, 2, 3 etc will have a much lower score every time
00:27:18 <pikhq> Interesting. . . Clever hack.
00:28:12 <Corun> I got the idea for the method by looking at the "Hello World!" on wikipedia
00:28:30 <Corun> I just had to try and generate something similar programatically
00:28:31 * pikhq may well have to figure out a way to adapt that algorithm into PEBBLE
00:29:24 <Corun> How does it do it at the moment?
00:29:45 <ehird`> ++++++++++++++++++++++.>+++++++++++++++++++.
00:29:47 <pikhq> Just adding and subtracting to a single cell via two-cell versions of the constants.
00:30:05 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: maybe pikhq can explain :P
00:30:10 <pikhq> It does somewhat decently because it *wraps*, but it's not exactly optimal.
00:30:54 <Corun> Does it use the constants from http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainfuck_constants ? :-)
00:31:01 <pikhq> The wrapping ones.
00:32:38 * GregorR needs to invent a new MISC that doesn't require/allow self-modifying code, so it can actually be compiled in a pseudo-optimal way.
00:33:51 <bsmntbombdood> GregorR: self-modifying code is part of what makes it so cool
00:34:03 <GregorR> It is, but it also makes it significantly less practical.
00:34:10 <GregorR> I'd like to imagine something that could be implemented in a JIT.
00:34:20 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR: why not just run it in a simple VM? It'd be nearly as fast as compiled, anyway
00:34:33 <GregorR> RodgerTheGreat: I'm already doing that :P
00:34:55 <GregorR> If you do that, I won't need my new MISC :P
00:35:35 <RodgerTheGreat> right now, I'm building it in a logic simulator, but when I get it working, I'll redo it in VERILOG, and then you can flash it to an FPGA for hours of fun
00:37:44 <Corun> Transistors? Pah! You need to use a room full of people to do it!
00:37:54 <ehird`> transisitors are... more practical
00:38:23 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm no computer engineer. VERILOG is as close to hardware as I go for anything more complex than an adder.
00:38:38 <GregorR> VERILOG is way, WAY closer than I ever go.
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00:45:41 <Sgeo> It's been a while since I worked on PSOX--or has it?
00:45:50 <Sgeo> Maybe I left a suprise in the PSOX.txt file..
00:58:04 <ihope> A MISC that isn't self-modifying?
00:58:15 <ihope> Like URISC and subleq?
01:13:45 <RodgerTheGreat> I know a little bit, and it's not too terrible to learn
01:14:19 <ihope> I'm guessing that in theory, it's rather fast.
01:15:21 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, because when you flash it onto an FPGA you can run the "virtual chip" at ~200mhz with good hardware
01:16:21 <ihope> Does the parallelness of an FPGA beat the clock speed of a conventional processor... often?
01:17:01 <RodgerTheGreat> an FPGA could probably hold several MISC cores at once, too
01:22:13 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm definitely going to have to find a cheap FPGA development platform once I finish learning VERILOG
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03:20:45 <oklopol> omg i was down 3.5 hours :|
03:27:43 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p452633243.txt <<< i actually made this work
03:28:10 <oklopol> when the internet is down, i get depressed... but god i'm productibe
03:29:04 <oklopol> (you can't see from that that i was productive, but i did other things too!)
03:29:27 <oklopol> also, my hair is falling out
03:29:34 <oklopol> and i have to go to sleep i think
03:31:09 <oklopol> and another random sentence.
03:31:34 <oklopol> now leaving again after waiting for 3.5 hours to get back online.
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04:11:36 <RodgerTheGreat> http://nonlogic.org/dump/images/1192331472-Fence.gif <- and for a foreground...
04:12:01 <RodgerTheGreat> (this is a set of images I'm working on for a parallax scroller demo)
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15:00:05 <ibd_cpp> how would you create a BF program that prints out a given string?
15:00:52 <ibd_cpp> how would you create a C program that created a BF program that prints out a given string given to the C program?
15:01:08 <ehird`> by entering fax's competition
15:01:20 <ibd_cpp> I have, I'm just looking what others might do
15:05:47 <ehird`> i liked whoever-it-was's idea yesterday
15:06:00 <ehird`> it made a few cells close to the chars
15:06:05 <ehird`> and then just adjusted them as needed for each char output
15:06:35 <ibd_cpp> well my entry works like that, but it might be a common idea
15:06:50 <ehird`> its what the person who came in yesterday did
15:07:38 <ibd_cpp> ++++++++++[>+++>+++++++>++++++++>++++++++++<<<<-]>>++.>>+.+++++++..+++.<<<++.>>+++++++.>.+++.------.--------.<<<+.
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17:25:03 <Corun> This is what programming should be: http://obfuscated.co.uk/files/realProgramming.png
17:25:25 <ehird`> what does that output?! :P
17:25:55 <ehird`> (Do i get points if my first reaction was: "UNO skin.")
17:25:59 <Corun> http://obfuscated.co.uk/files/bfrealprog.txt outputs http://fax.twilightcoders.net/textfiles/TheStoryofMelARealProgrammer.txt
17:26:44 <Corun> No points. Sorry. :-P
17:27:14 <ehird`> but... you do use UNO, right? :P
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19:15:59 <Corun> !bf +++++++[->+++++++<]>.++..++++.
19:16:42 <oklopol> !bf ++++++++[->+++++>++++++++>++++>+++++++++++<<<<]>>+++++.>+.--..<<++.-.
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19:16:48 <ehird`> what is the output for "aaabbbcccbbb"?
19:17:10 <Corun> !bf ++++++++[->++++++++++++<]>+...+...+...-...
19:17:28 <oklopol> !bf +++++++++++[->++++>+++++++>++++++++>+++++++++<<<]>+++.<..>>.+++++.
19:17:41 <EgoBot> realloc: Cannot allocate memory
19:17:43 <oklopol> !bf +++++++++++[->++++>+++++++>++++++++>++++++++<<<]>+++.<..>>.+++++.
19:17:50 <oklopol> !bf +++++++++++[->++++>+++++++>++++++++>++++++++<<<<]>+++.<..>>.+++++.
19:17:57 <EgoBot> realloc: Cannot allocate memory
19:18:14 <Corun> !bf ++++++++++++[->++++++++++>++++++++<<]>...>+...<-----------...>...
19:18:20 <Corun> It's better than it was
19:18:27 <ehird`> could be optimized though
19:18:36 <oerjan> bf is not 8bit by default
19:18:45 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
19:18:47 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
19:19:01 <oklopol> oerjan: who are you talking to?
19:19:39 <Corun> It now generates exactly the same as what's on the wikipedia bf page for the "Hello World!\n" example.
19:20:03 <ehird`> your stuff doesn't work because you need !bf8
19:20:35 <oerjan> actually now i am not sure
19:20:54 <oerjan> but if your stuff depends on wrapping on 256 you need that
19:21:46 <oerjan> on second thought you had mismatched ><'s :)
19:22:23 <oerjan> which seems more likely to fill memory
19:22:53 <oklopol> my stuff worked perfectly, though
19:23:07 <EgoBot> realloc: Cannot allocate memory
19:23:31 <oklopol> my mistake was to leave one < out, but that was a typo
19:24:18 <oklopol> !bf ++++++++[->++++++++>+++>+++++++>+++++++++++<<<<]>++.>+++++++.--.>>++++++.----.<..
19:25:09 <Corun> What's that supposed to do oklopol?
19:26:51 <oklopol> didn't EgoBot already evaluate it :)
19:27:52 <Corun> Yeah, but I thoguht B^Z88 was probably not what it was supposed to print
19:27:54 <oklopol> hmm, note to self: do not put your markov chain on a channel with bots with *no* markov chain in their speech randomization
19:28:31 <oklopol> you thought what i wanted you to believe, Corun
19:28:42 <Corun> !bf +++++++++++[->++++++>++++++++>+++++<<<]>.>++++++.----.>+..
19:28:46 <Corun> That's shorter :-P
19:28:52 <oklopol> hmm, i guess i could, for a second or two
19:29:11 <oklopol> i couldn't test it actually, because i just joined on that one channel ;;)
19:29:35 <oklopol> it has no permanent memory currenly, i just wanted to make a markov chain bot, since i never made one
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19:29:45 <oerjan> Corun: you are missing an escape character
19:30:04 <oerjan> or something like that
19:30:25 <oerjan> there was a control character in oklopol's version, which you missed
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19:30:51 <oklopol> i'm not even sure if that works
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19:31:16 <oklopol> i have no idea what just happened, but it looked floodish ;)
19:31:26 <ehird`> we'll train it quick enough
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19:31:38 <oklopol> hmm, well, that's assuming it works
19:31:50 <ehird`> zmnszctzs: do i address you a certain way or do you listen to any message?
19:31:51 <oklopol> i have no idea whether it does
19:32:13 <ehird`> zmnszctzs: Flowers are lovely.
19:32:15 <zmnszctzs> hello zmnszctzs do you listen to any message
19:32:23 <oerjan> pretty self-centered, that bot :D
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19:32:37 <oklopol> that was a 15 min python project, i did punctuation removing rather badly
19:32:43 <ehird`> restart it and put it in #esoteric-blah
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20:13:16 <ehird`> (8:22:47 PM) zmnszctzs: perhaps he will end up sentences
20:13:16 <ehird`> (8:22:57 PM) zmnszctzs: ok know grammar hes the earth and im lazy guy
20:13:19 <ehird`> that actually made some sense
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20:18:33 <oklopol> it said a pretty coherent thing in finnish earlier, but i lost it in the logs :P
20:18:49 <oklopol> i don't feel like reading 5000 lines of bot flood
20:20:59 <ehird`> (8:30:14 PM) zmnszctzs: one is three is six is ten
20:21:03 <ehird`> (8:30:39 PM) zmnszctzs: one plus seven is three
20:21:04 <oklopol> hakkaa pelitt = hit without a game
20:21:17 <ehird`> zmnszctzs sucks at maths
20:21:47 <ehird`> (8:31:36 PM) zmnszctzs: one is nine
20:21:55 <oklopol> i think that comes from "hakkaa plle"
20:22:08 <oklopol> which is like "beat over" or something
20:22:20 <oklopol> but i think the noun is "hakkapeliitta"
20:22:23 <ehird`> (8:32:10 PM) zmnszctzs: like fuzzy things and arithmetic although am zmnszctzs
20:22:27 <oklopol> having no idea what that means, hard to be sure ;)
20:22:44 <oklopol> that was actually coherent, almost
20:22:49 <ehird`> (8:32:29 PM) zmnszctzs: like fuzzy things
20:22:53 <oerjan> i thought it was a tire trademark/company
20:22:54 <ehird`> he really, really likes fuzzy things
20:24:12 <oerjan> wow, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakkapeliitta
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20:24:52 <oklopol> oh, i did know what that meant i guess
20:25:10 <oklopol> O Lord, deliver us from the terrible army of the Haccapelites
20:25:44 <ehird`> (8:35:26 PM) zmnszctzs: hello how are you like fuzzy things and then sing out loud
20:34:04 <ehird`> it's asking basic questions
20:41:00 <oklopol> (22:40:24) (zmnszctzs) it filters everything except characters
20:41:01 <oklopol> (22:40:28) (zmnszctzs) also many times theres been a lucky guess
20:41:22 <oklopol> (22:40:08) (zmnszctzs) and eof is considered a conversation << was what i tried to paste...
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20:56:01 <ehird`> (9:05:40 PM) zmnszctzs: enough to be word
20:56:02 <ehird`> (9:05:41 PM) zmnszctzs: hello nostrils and when to floop haggis you are in my code
20:56:10 <ehird`> (::05:48 PM) zmnszctzs: if you sell your soul for a stab at the fragment thing
20:56:14 <ehird`> (9:05:51 PM) zmnszctzs: but it filters everything except characters
20:57:12 <oklopol> i wonder if that already beats me in chess
20:57:39 <ehird`> <oklopol> a1 to d7 <zmnszctzs> hello nostrils haggis
20:58:52 <oklopol> sadly, you don't need much more to beat me
20:59:09 <ehird`> (9:07:53 PM) zmnszctzs: fucking
20:59:10 <ehird`> (9:08:17 PM) zmnszctzs: hello
20:59:10 <ehird`> (9:08:44 PM) zmnszctzs: doesnt make nostrils and inside themselves of tea
20:59:28 <ehird`> (9:09:13 PM) zmnszctzs: i dont think it runs out of possibilities it has a mapping to train maybe you see the fragments will need to perfect that is the sentence
21:00:45 <oklopol> i see it has a great understanding of it's own inner workings.
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21:12:14 <ehird`> (9:21:56 PM) zmnszctzs: wise men have no sorry
21:19:46 <oklopol> (zmnszctzs) what chains to generate multiple fragments can probably just do any coffee
22:06:40 <ehird`> oklopol: ping into #esoteric-blah
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22:26:27 <ehird`> (10:36:15 PM) zmnszctzs: zmnszctzs make every sublist of coffee
22:26:41 <ehird`> (10:36:31 PM) zmnszctzs: ok oklopol restart it now or what chains
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22:30:08 <ehird`> hahaha(10:39:38 PM) zmnszctzs: or some weird cheap stuff
22:30:08 <ehird`> (10:39:57 PM) zmnszctzs: to floop haggis
22:31:54 <ehird`> (10:41:38 PM) zmnszctzs: hmm i dont wanna make nostrils
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05:45:38 <Atalanta> http://rafb.net/p/3bSZ7t31.html =D
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15:14:45 <SimonRC> characters aren't supposed to be output with a newline each time
15:14:57 <Atalanta> yeah i fixed that and something else but didnt upload
15:15:32 <SimonRC> and what is this if (var[ptr]) == '\\n') var[ptr] = 0;
15:21:03 <Atalanta> i was trying to get rid of the extra \10 thats on the end of each line press, but allow enter (\10) to be pressed by itself and count as \0
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15:22:38 <SimonRC> I think the extra NL is supposed to be there
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16:15:09 <oklopol> does there happen to be a 2d string rewriting language?
16:15:42 <oklopol> i made one just now, it seems
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16:19:17 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p144462122.txt
16:19:35 <oklopol> run that and you'll see a turtle moving across the screen :P
16:20:11 <oklopol> you have a list of substitutions, and a 2d character map
16:20:18 <oklopol> substitutions are done randomly to the map
16:24:37 <oklopol> random rule is always picked
16:24:48 <oklopol> well, not random, unspecified
16:25:14 <oklopol> actually, i think i'll specify it'll always be as random as possible,, whatever that means :P
16:25:47 <oklopol> the point of that was to demonstrate the random movement
16:27:40 <oklopol> someone who has any thue intuition, wanna tell me if that's easier of harder to program?
16:27:58 <oklopol> thue allows the "from" string to be of different length than "to"
16:28:14 <oklopol> i couldn't do that, or the result would no longer have been ascii-printable
16:28:49 <oklopol> since anything that changes size, but does not use the whole width/height of the map destroys the rectangle, of course
16:29:06 <oklopol> so there's no actual trivial thue isomorphism
16:29:21 <oklopol> although i'm fairly sure thue is tc without that feature.
16:29:30 <oklopol> hard to say, never made anything in it...
16:31:40 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p626434225.txt PLACE YOUR BETS NOW!
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16:40:02 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p631111521.txt this looks so great with the new version http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p316314631.txt where you can make the delay smaller
16:40:18 <oklopol> i'm do gonna make a circular racetrack!
16:40:39 <oklopol> ...quite pathetic testing tbh :P
16:44:31 <SimonRC> what is this thing called?
16:53:13 <oklopol> this language? hmm, i have no idea :|
16:53:20 <oklopol> oh my god this is gonna be great xD
16:53:33 <oklopol> get Tkinter, and you shall soon see my unbelivably cool race track :P
16:54:06 <oklopol> (and no, it's not gonna be great, but OMG RACETRACK)
16:54:47 <GregorR> People actually /use/ Tkinter?
16:55:09 <oklopol> i don't know anything else
16:55:18 <GregorR> I thought it was included as a cruel joke to trap new Pythoners.
16:55:27 <oklopol> hehe, it's pretty buggy :)
16:55:48 <oklopol> but better have a few bugs than having to download libraries
16:55:50 <GregorR> It's also Tk. Even if it was bug-free, it would still be Tk.
16:56:16 <GregorR> Like gets, the man page should say "Never use Tkinter." under BUGS.
16:56:33 <oklopol> actually crashed just now, i almost lost my racetrack :P
17:05:03 <oklopol> hmm, got pretty slow after once i made the whole track complete :<
17:05:15 <oklopol> i guess i need to do some optimization to see them squrry merrily again
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17:26:40 <SimonRC> I actually said "What the fuck?!" to today's DailyWTF (the division one)
17:28:25 <oklopol> haha, i actually realized my language is trivially *not* tc
17:28:33 <oklopol> in fact so trivially i'm pretty much lolling at myself :)
17:29:20 <oklopol> you'd think after assessing the universality of about 100 languages, you'd start noticing the trivial fact that a language does not have infinitely extendable memory...
17:32:02 <GregorR> SimonRC: I'm not positive, but I don't think that division function is even going to come out with the correct result ... /ever/ ...
17:33:11 <GregorR> Yeah, it turns 2/1 into 13/11 >_>
17:33:56 <SimonRC> I think it is based on the principle that (a+c)/(b+c)=a/b
17:34:00 <oklopol> wanna suggest me a way to extend that?
17:34:34 <GregorR> SimonRC: Right ... now if only that was true ...
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17:38:28 <oklopol> hey, i have an idea, what if the rightmost character would be automatically repeated infinitely to the right, the leftmost to the left, etc.?
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18:02:57 <oklopol> making game of life happen is a bit harder than i assumed... i didn't realize i need a separate case for each possible combination of neighbors xD
18:06:31 <oklopol> okay, this is impossible :P
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18:34:14 * RodgerTheGreat is listening to When She Cries by Andy McKee from Art Of Motion
18:35:17 <oerjan> not much, just logged on 18 mins before you
18:38:22 * oklopol wonders if he should've calculated the number of different patterns in gol before starting to implement them manually as needed...
18:38:55 <oklopol> it's more than in normal gol, since i need to take into account the direction my pointer is moving, and the fact i need to delay last steps...
18:39:02 <oklopol> prolly exactly twice more...
18:39:17 * oerjan guesses that gol has a googol different patterns
18:39:17 <oklopol> too tired to calculate, i'll continue hacking them in manually ->
18:40:01 * oerjan calls the acronym police
18:47:54 <oklopol> noooo this is my third offence :<
18:52:00 <oerjan> you may have your license revoked then, and have to write everything in full
18:53:26 <oklopol> this will soon be the longest program i've ever written manually.
18:53:40 <oklopol> this language is so great...
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18:58:12 <oerjan> since it is manually, i guess it's not quite a googol lines
19:05:00 <oklopol> well, it's not really that long now that i look at it
19:05:00 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p432433464.txt
19:05:13 <oklopol> it's just kinda tedious :P
19:05:24 <oklopol> it now actually goes one cycle!
19:06:17 <oklopol> the next round will probably have nothing in common with the first... i have to make that automatic somehow...
19:06:34 <oklopol> it's just on some level i kinda like doing that manually
19:06:54 <RodgerTheGreat> I like the radiator-looking part at the end. Very pretty.
19:08:00 <oklopol> that was the only way i could think of to escape the randomness of the mutations
19:09:02 <oklopol> i was first thinking i'd make it so that it can evolve randomly, but it kinda keeps track of what has been modified on the round and moves according to that... but i think i'd still have the problem of having to make every single combination manually...
19:09:22 <oklopol> gotta continue, i'll make that fucker glide if it kills me
19:10:37 <oklopol> you noticed "the glider", there are two gliders :)
19:10:47 <oklopol> one gol glider, and one tode glider
19:11:00 <oklopol> tode being the name of the language
19:12:08 <oklopol> try running that, it's pretty cool :P
19:21:03 <oklopol> hmm, i think there are a few thousand possibilities
19:21:14 <oklopol> so i might actually get this ready during my lifetime
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19:33:52 <oklopol> actually... might be a million instead of a thousand... oh well
19:36:02 <oklopol> hmm, 512 for the actual possibilities, 1024 because there are 2 directions, also 4 of the 9 also store their last value, thus the temporary values ":", ";", "," and "O", so... 1024*2^4=16384
19:36:26 <oklopol> so... have a nice rest of your life, everyone, you won't be seeing me for a while!
19:37:01 <oerjan> not until you invent code generation?
19:38:43 <oklopol> yeah, well actually i already know the exact algo for that, done that for so long i find it pretty trivial now... i guess it would've been trivial from the start, but i'm verrry tired
19:38:51 <oklopol> was gonna go to sleep about 4 hours ago
19:39:26 <oklopol> i think i'll make the glider work manually, then make the 100% correct gol with code generation
19:39:33 * oerjan is strangely sleepy himself
19:40:36 <oklopol> what's even stranger, i never even saw the envelope
19:42:50 * oerjan assumes that wasn't meant to make sense
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19:54:18 <oklopol> yeah, you are the name that clarifies my instincts
19:56:10 * oerjan is strangely too sleepy to make nonsense, too
19:58:21 <oklopol> MWAHAHAHA SOON MY CREATION IS COMPLETE
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20:11:26 <oklopol> thought i'd finished it, but hey, once the glider has moved the whole 4 steps, it's in a different place, and every move is completely different :)
20:13:35 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p454225263.txt i feel i've really accomplished something here
20:14:24 <oklopol> it's pretty neat until it jams at the forth cycle ;)
20:23:27 <fax> did you make the game of life in wireworld?
20:23:33 <fax> (what is this?)
20:24:22 <RodgerTheGreat> and you could certainly build a wireworld game of life using the logic gates designed for the wireworld computer
20:27:52 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: yes, but it does not work for anything except the first 4 cycles of that glider, and even then only if it's going the right direction ;)
20:28:02 <oklopol> but it's scalable all right
20:28:16 <oklopol> you should be able to make a greater radiator and... watch the first 4 steps in that
20:28:22 <oklopol> but you could have multiple gliders
20:29:04 <oklopol> there's no optimization, so even though there's just one tode glider there, everything is matched everywhere each cycle
20:29:14 <oklopol> so the speed will drop unbelievably fast
20:29:46 <oklopol> when i've generated the code, i will probably have to optimize immensely, or it'll never evolve even one step :)
20:30:37 <oklopol> hmm, i've seen a wireworld gol i think
20:31:24 <oklopol> it is prolly harder to do in wireworld, but may require a bit less work ;)
20:31:35 <oklopol> if you insist on doing that manually
20:31:50 <oklopol> (which i'm not doing after i realized it's actually gonna be over 50000 lines...)
20:35:21 <oklopol> in case i'm correct, and this is the pseudo code for generating the possibilities, i'm gonna explode a bit
20:35:21 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p145514635.txt
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21:16:32 <oklopol> and the corners still don't work xD
21:23:54 <oklopol> i don't think i've ever produced as much code as today
21:24:04 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p334335231.txt <<< check that out and kill our server :)
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13:21:03 <ais523> Has anyone tried to write an asynchronous programming language before?
13:21:20 <ais523> That is, one where you can't guarantee that the previous command has finished executing before the next one starts
13:21:39 <ais523> and if you try to change more than one bit in the internal state at once, they might change one at a time with other things happening in between
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13:37:56 <ais523> !ul (GregorR, in response to something you were wondering a few days ago, the 'ul' daemon on EgoBot is an Underload interpreter)S
13:38:30 <ais523> but I set it up via /query EgoBot, so it only gives its answers to me and therefore is kind of useless for anyone else to play around with at the moment
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19:37:25 * SimonRC wonders if any of the Calxists are here.
19:41:29 <ehird`> bsmntbom1dood: that's what i was about to say
19:41:51 <ehird`> "calxist" returns someone who went into #osdev 2007
19:42:01 <ehird`> calxists returns you asking the same thing: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/07.07.13
19:42:26 <SimonRC> Too complicated to explain
19:43:25 <SimonRC> They do want it to be kept semi-queit
19:43:48 <ehird`> if you want it to be quiet
19:43:51 <ehird`> stfu and don't mention it
19:44:26 <SimonRC> http://conworlds.info/cwbb/viewtopic.php?p=2067#2067
19:44:52 <SimonRC> i was trying to remember who was the person/people here that were the founders
19:45:32 <ehird`> without reading a big (for forums) post, summarize it
19:46:32 <ehird`> calxism's core pillars of "LOL OK THIS IS TRUE:" = ?
19:46:39 <SimonRC> Calxism tries to use logic to get the results we want
19:47:21 <SimonRC> Calxism tries to derive things like "murder is forbidden" from its core premise
19:47:39 <SimonRC> Actually it ends up deriving "murder should be really expensive"
19:47:58 <ehird`> what's the core premise?
19:48:29 * SimonRC tries to think how to explain...
19:48:47 <ehird`> you have a philosophy based on a core premise you can't explain
19:50:10 <SimonRC> I didn't invent Calxism, I nicked it
19:50:26 <SimonRC> ok, i think this sums it up roughly: "It's more about making a decisicion on what goal we should follow based on incomplete information being a bad call now, I think. There may or may not be a goal, but we should learn as much as we can incase there's something we discover more goalworthy along the way. In other words, more information can never be a bad thing, so for lack of a goal we should learn. If we find a goal we can all aspire to, great, if we d
19:50:55 <SimonRC> The idea is that there may be an ultimate goal, if so we need to find it
19:51:02 <ehird`> how do you derive "murder = expensive" from that?
19:51:19 <SimonRC> The people I am lookingfor are the ones that were trying to write a book and start a country
19:51:33 <ehird`> SimonRC: how does that follow from the above
19:51:48 <SimonRC> can't remember exactly, it was a while ago
19:52:05 <SimonRC> they added some extra stuff to make an actual legal system
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19:52:42 <SimonRC> the catchphrase "logical means to illogical ends" came up a few times
19:53:14 <SimonRC> I think they planned to give people some money-like stuff depending on how hard they worked, or something...
19:54:00 <SimonRC> there issome communism in there too
19:54:08 <bsmntbombdood> restriction and centralization, my favorite things
19:54:08 <ehird`> restricted centralized capitalism
19:54:30 <ehird`> (... Communism, just what we need)
19:54:41 <SimonRC> they had some other stuff that actually made it sound almost workable
19:54:58 <SimonRC> and you could spend your "money" on things
19:55:15 <SimonRC> there was no crime as such, just really expensive stuff
19:55:33 <ehird`> do i have to spend money to go to the toilet?
19:55:45 <RodgerTheGreat> that's quite literally the definition of "money". A representative object or objects that can be exchanged for goods or services.
19:56:00 <SimonRC> but it isn't inheritable for a start
19:56:11 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: I raised that point
19:56:43 <SimonRC> except I think it is personal and non-transferrable
19:56:54 <ehird`> non-transferrable money?
19:56:59 <ehird`> isn't that called... "rocks"?
19:57:49 <SimonRC> possibly there was some restriction on how you could transferr it
19:58:00 <SimonRC> anyway, I wasn't terribly convinced that such a country would work
19:58:11 <SimonRC> the channel has gone very quite
19:58:12 <RodgerTheGreat> money's entire function is in the act of transfer. You'd have to get pretty metaphysical and impractical to design an economy without monetary exchange.
19:58:48 <SimonRC> it wasn't exactly money, it was a measure of how much resources you werew allowed to use for your own leisure
19:59:14 <RodgerTheGreat> so basically a metric by which your value to society is measured.
19:59:15 <ehird`> this sounds like a very happyfun society
19:59:23 <ehird`> (Note: here be sarcasm)
19:59:35 <SimonRC> (the whole thing is a great illustration of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" here applied to philosohpy)
20:01:24 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1190260876-inetargument.png
20:01:32 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: you have to pay to go to the toilet, basically
20:02:06 <RodgerTheGreat> public bathrooms in Germany charge a small fee to contribute to the maintenance and cleaning of said bathroom.
20:02:33 <bsmntbombdood> bathrooms in america have to pay to hook up to the sewer and for flushing water
20:02:37 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: damn I wish I were funny like you can be
20:03:04 <RodgerTheGreat> if that's sarcasm, it wasn't supposed to be amazing or anything
20:03:39 <oklopol> i like the country i live in
20:03:46 <SimonRC> or rather, I mean that I was able to write+draw comics at all
20:03:52 <oklopol> although i've always wanted to live in one of those sex cults
20:04:14 <ehird`> oklopol: i've always wanted to sex in one of those live cults
20:04:18 <ehird`> damn, that doesn't work
20:04:51 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1190338381-deal.png <- I liked this one better.
20:08:25 <bsmntbombdood> any movie that's not a porno but starts off with an autofelatio scene has to be good
20:08:52 <SimonRC> and you must have to be flexible to do that
20:09:13 * SimonRC feels that length of his ribcage
20:09:27 <SimonRC> the rib-cage can't bend...
20:09:41 <RodgerTheGreat> IMDB trivia on "shortbus": "To make the actors more comfortable, the director and the cameramen were stripped naked while filming the orgy scene."
20:09:45 <SimonRC> and the vertebrae below it have a total length less than it...
20:10:36 <bsmntbombdood> http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/476/shortbus00603984vu0.jpg
20:11:07 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: first thought: ouroboros
20:12:31 * SimonRC agrees with RodgerTheGreat
20:13:58 * SimonRC wonders when it will become commercially possibleto re-activate the human tail genes
20:14:11 <SimonRC> they occasioanlly re-activate on their own
20:14:27 <RodgerTheGreat> it will be a wonderful day for furries and a dark day for every sane human on earth.
20:14:33 <ehird`> SimonRC: when all biologists become furries
20:14:35 <SimonRC> there are a very tiny number of people with monkey-like tails, about 30cm long
20:14:50 * SimonRC recalls the events of 2043
20:15:20 <SimonRC> they look ugly due to no fur
20:15:20 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: quick, detune
20:15:25 <ehird`> i don't like wave interference
20:16:23 <RodgerTheGreat> Is that a waveform collapse I taste? Or possibly blood.
20:17:14 <RodgerTheGreat> SimonRC: I think adding a naked, ratlike tail to a human is one of the few ways you could possibly make us look more ridiculous.
20:17:35 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: i've seen both those strips before :<
20:17:42 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: I think the furry biologists will probably work on that.
20:18:27 <ehird`> All humans fuck retarded people now?
20:18:47 <RodgerTheGreat> ... that is one possible interpretation of what I said.
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20:19:20 <SimonRC> ah, one of my best works: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.dragons/msg/f1961295cd324d15
20:19:25 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: those two pictures are identical
20:20:12 <ehird`> "PIXEL #34 IS DIFFERENT"
20:20:21 <RodgerTheGreat> I hope we can all agree, however, that genetic engineering + sexual fetishism = bad, bad news.
20:20:32 <oklopol> i actually checked 3 times, though
20:20:49 <SimonRC> actually, it seems to be the same image scanned in twice
20:21:02 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: how do you genetically engineer for necrophillia?
20:21:19 <SimonRC> who is the guy in the foreground?
20:21:35 <SimonRC> the one in all your cartoons
20:22:16 <ehird`> (SimonRC lives in a world where every character has a 1:1 mapping to real people.)
20:22:44 <RodgerTheGreat> he is, for example, a hardcode DOS guru, whereas I am a mac user.
20:23:15 <SimonRC> is there a collection of your cartoons?
20:23:23 <SimonRC> there are more than just those 5on your site
20:24:38 <bsmntbombdood> RodgerTheGreat> I hope we can all agree, however, that genetic engineering + sexual fetishism = bad, bad news. <-- unless it's your fetish
20:25:57 <ehird`> we really need an #esoteric-social
20:26:43 * SimonRC indicates his announcement of a few months back
20:27:07 <ehird`> (actually, #esoteric-social exists, but only of virtue of me being in there in case anyone joins)
20:28:19 * SimonRC whistles the Chip's hallenge music
20:29:45 <ehird`> is is is is is is is is is is
20:30:14 <bsmntbombdood> i have to write a report about either aids or hunger
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23:01:27 <ehird`> (Is this "make formula that cannot be corrected by simple augmentation" day?)
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00:00:49 <GregorR> mesm (adj): Transfixed in a state of wonderment.
00:01:11 <ehird`> m - high degrees of mesm
00:01:19 <GregorR> mesmerize (verb): To cause to be more mesm
00:01:36 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+").
00:02:13 <GregorR> I think I'll use "mesm" all the time from now on.
00:02:17 <GregorR> I like this invented word.
00:10:48 <RodgerTheGreat> to operate without this warning, try IRP -XERROFF -UNSTRICT -BOUNDED.
00:11:31 <ehird`> IRP -XERROF -UNSTRICT -BOUNDED I'mesm back
00:13:41 <ehird`> IRP -XERROFF -XNOCACHE -UNSTRICT -BOUNDED I'mesm back
00:16:25 <RodgerTheGreat> IRP RUNTIME ERROR: TestingMyPatienceException(); ON LINE 1
00:16:40 <ehird`> IRP -PATIENCE:inf -SWITCHES:CACHE
00:16:52 <ehird`> IRP -PATIENCE:inf -SWITCHES:CACHE
00:17:09 <ehird`> i can see i will have to resort to brute force
00:17:22 <ehird`> [starting daemon, reply "go to hell" -> "IRP go to hell"]
00:18:14 <ehird`> [rebooting IRP system, renewed patience]
00:18:21 <ehird`> IRP what is the switch to disable cache?
00:19:09 <RodgerTheGreat> ERROR: HELP FILES NOT FOUND! msg="Further information is not available here."
00:19:29 <ehird`> IRP -XERROFF -CACHE:0 -UNSTRICT -BOUNDED I'mesm back
00:21:33 <ehird`> IRP -XERROFF -CACHE:0 -UNSTRICT -BOUNDED Please run newIRP3.14, the unofficial IRP implementation without the no-cache segfault bug.
00:22:32 <RodgerTheGreat> sorry, my implementation uses a neural-net based bugfixing system. Commandline arguments containing "CACHE" are no longer allowed.
00:23:15 <ehird`> IRP -XERROFF -UNSTRICT -BOUNDED Please run newIRP3.14, the unofficial IRP implementation without any cache implementation. (Note: keep the cache in the normal implementation, newIRP does not utilize it anyway.)
00:24:33 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: we are recalling language implementations of yore
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17:39:23 <SimonRC> zvchwk fitaly ne qdorsb qjumpx
17:39:43 <ehird`> what keyboard layout is THAT
17:40:19 <SimonRC> it is designed for pen input
17:40:22 <ehird`> are you having me on or is it a real layout? :P
17:40:36 <SimonRC> you can get it for PalmOS and it beats the built-in keyboard in every way
17:40:51 <SimonRC> there are two space keys either side of the ne
17:41:15 <SimonRC> my text entry instantly became much more reliable once I installed it
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17:41:18 <oklopol> i'd take anything to get rid of qwerty
17:41:34 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: you appear to lack the lwtter p
17:42:11 <oklopol> if the letters are dropped around randomly, i want to be the one who's done the randomization...
17:42:47 <ehird`> SimonRC: link to site?
17:43:37 <oklopol> also it'd be nice if the characters would change their positions every now and then so i'd have to relearn them
17:43:37 <SimonRC> http://www.fitaly.com/product/palmonscreen.htm
17:43:45 <SimonRC> there are many versions all over
17:43:56 <SimonRC> you need a thingy called "hackmaster" too
17:44:37 <oklopol> wut at which thing i said?
17:45:06 <SimonRC> <oklopol> also it'd be nice if the characters would change their positions every now and then so i'd have to relearn them
17:45:16 <SimonRC> that wouldn't be very nice for me
17:45:57 <oklopol> a bit of brainfuck is always welcome
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18:52:33 <GregorR> Of course, /me <3 PDAs and Tablet PCs too X-P
18:57:12 <RodgerTheGreat> http://img.waffleimages.com/d295812ff06a7092ed89cf34da589a91787c000d/hehe.jpg
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18:57:45 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: /me sooo lazy, wanna regive the comics page :P
18:59:30 <Fa1r> ERROR 404: INTERPRETER_NOT_FOUND on #irp ?
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19:00:35 <RodgerTheGreat> if you want a new IRP interpreter, find someone of the opposite gender and get "compiling". I'm told it takes about 9 months.
19:00:57 <Fa1r> Wher' do i get sources ?
19:01:46 <Fa1r> whoa \o/ .. let's have a party for the fact.
19:02:03 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: have you painted all of that?
19:02:08 <oklopol> or are some just random pics? :P
19:02:41 <RodgerTheGreat> pretty much everything in the images folder was created by me. What are you asking about, specifically?
19:04:15 <ehird`> i wonder how fitaly would work with a small-form keyboard
19:04:47 <RodgerTheGreat> oklopol: those are screenshots of a puzzle game I played online
19:05:03 <ehird`> its really damn hard :(
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19:09:06 <ehird`> i might buy a small-form keyboard
19:09:58 <RodgerTheGreat> fitaly is even better when your silkscreen is software based, like on my Handera 330.
19:18:18 * ehird` wonders if fitaly would really work that well with real keys
19:19:41 <ehird`> if thye keys were light enough?
19:20:12 <RodgerTheGreat> the key arrangement is designed around the finger motions necessary to point and tap on keys
19:25:45 <ehird`> i wonder what a keyboard based on letter frequency in general usage is
19:25:59 <ehird`> (if I'm not mistaken, etaoinsrhl / dcumfpgwy / bvkxjqz)
19:26:20 <ehird`> etaoinsrhl below the dcumfpgwy row of course, as it'd be the home row
19:27:23 <ehird`> ldcumfpgwy / etaoinsrh / bvkxjqz
19:28:05 * ehird` wishes there was a program that would take something like that and generate a keyboard layout simply -- for testing
19:28:14 <ehird`> maybe display it on screen too while you are testing
19:33:31 <ehird`> its actually etaoinsrhld
19:33:41 <ehird`> take that, age-old typewriter layouts!
19:34:35 <ehird`> books are always right
19:36:04 * ehird` dares someone to switch to ldcumfpgwy / etaoinsrh / bvkxjqz cold turkey
19:41:04 <oklopol> would be nice, i'd do it if it didn't actually mean i have to get something to change the meaning of my keys
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19:49:40 <oklopol> that meaning i'm too lazy to program/dl something for it
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20:59:05 <ehird`> http://elgoog.rb-hosting.de/index.cgi?dir=/&page=/codesearch%3Fhl=en%26q=hello,%5C+world%26amp;ct=hp
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21:02:15 <oklopol> let's hi them all, mwahaah
21:02:32 <oklopol> oh, you were indeed hi'ing me :P
21:03:16 <oklopol> i made my gol run like 20 times faster, and made it's ordo from O(cellcount*patterns) to O(patterns)!
21:03:27 <oklopol> now it only takes 5 minutes to run through one gol cycle!!!
21:03:58 <oklopol> hmm, actually i made tode run about 20 times faster...
21:04:02 <oklopol> the gol code wasn't changed
21:04:03 <ehird`> what is this written in? BCT?
21:04:12 <oklopol> tode, my new cool language! :DD
21:04:27 <oklopol> i wrote a 65656 line long GOL interpreter in it
21:04:51 <oklopol> it's a 2d array rewriting language
21:05:22 <oklopol> i was wrong, it definately takes more than 5 minutes xD
21:05:26 <ehird`> oh well just show me some example code
21:07:38 <oklopol> hmm, trying to find the link...
21:08:10 <oklopol> the name comes from "toad"
21:08:17 <oklopol> i didn't think of GOL when i made it
21:08:27 <oklopol> that was just something i thought the language might be good at ;)
21:08:38 <oklopol> turned out it failed more than anything has ever failed in anything :)
21:09:07 <ehird`> GOL should be really, really simple in an array rewriting languag
21:09:11 <ehird`> maybe your language just sucks :-)
21:09:13 <oklopol> but if i add a bit cleverer patterns, GOL will be a matter of just a few lines
21:09:15 <ehird`> paste the code somewhere
21:09:25 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p334335231.txt
21:10:00 <oklopol> it's like thue in that you cannot have anything but an *exact* pattern
21:10:03 <ehird`> do you... have an interpreter?
21:10:42 <oklopol> btw look in the bottom of the code and you'll see the board! :)
21:11:24 <oklopol> wait, i think my gol is wrong xD
21:11:38 <oklopol> it's nice to test it when it takes 15 minutes to run one cycle :DDDDDDDD
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21:13:39 <ehird`> you said it wasn't turing complete
21:13:47 <ehird`> Life is turing complete, with an infinite board.
21:13:55 <oklopol> well, the left pattern is the same size as the right pattern...
21:14:03 <ehird`> so... yeah. if you can represent an infinite life board (or just an automatically resizing one), it's TC
21:14:56 <oklopol> it doesn't currently resize, and because of the ascii nature, that might look a bit ugly
21:15:06 <oklopol> if it resizes to each direction
21:15:12 <oklopol> it could just resize right and down
21:15:19 <ehird`> well; just implement it somehow
21:16:15 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p112534342.txt <<< remember you asked for this, i already know my code is unreadable :)
21:16:35 <oklopol> in case you wanna tell me that again, i've heard it a couple of times
21:17:18 <ehird`> what do you have against spaces
21:17:23 <oklopol> actually, i could just ditch the asciiness and just make it a net that can resize anywhere
21:17:28 <ehird`> if a.__class__!=[].__class__: wtf
21:17:32 <oklopol> makes the code harder to read
21:18:08 <oklopol> well, as i said, i've heard all that
21:18:16 <oklopol> in fact, i've even heard that exact comment.
21:19:11 <oklopol> i've also heard you shouldn't do type testing like that at all...
21:19:30 <ehird`> by the way, i think i know the syntax of this language
21:19:39 <ehird`> a pattern is some arbitary ascii characters arranged into a block
21:19:41 <oklopol> it's pretty obvious from the example
21:19:50 <ehird`> x == y means "match x, change into y"
21:19:53 <ehird`> seperated by two enters
21:19:58 <ehird`> the last block is the default board
21:20:23 <ehird`> they seem to be executed in a very odd order
21:20:34 <ehird`> x == y, y == x, then "xyxyxy" on 3 lines seems to be pretty much random
21:20:42 <oklopol> basically my idea was to extend thue to 2d
21:21:18 <oklopol> but turned out i can't make the "from" pattern different size from the "to" pattern
21:21:19 * ehird` runs your life simulation
21:21:26 <oklopol> thought that wouldn't be a big deal...
21:21:39 <ehird`> add an optional bounding box
21:21:46 <ehird`> like `-----` for the top
21:21:47 <oklopol> once i actually started coding.... i realized it in fact makes it trivially not tc :<
21:22:00 <ehird`> blah = BOX bigger blah BOX
21:22:34 <oklopol> the GOL won't move for a while
21:22:47 <oklopol> since it has to check every pattern on the first cycle
21:23:08 <oklopol> once it starts moving, you can see the little v-character slowly moving downwards
21:23:27 <oklopol> it is the tode glider that makes the board mutate
21:24:09 <ehird`> i am trying to make a simple simulation
21:24:13 <ehird`> with a toad, actually :P
21:24:30 <ehird`> filled with: one t, many f and e
21:24:43 <oklopol> yeah, stuff like that is actually pretty fun
21:24:43 <ehird`> i'm trying to make t move to f
21:24:54 <ehird`> "arbitary amounts of X here"
21:25:12 <oklopol> but you should have stuff like mirroring for the rules and another language to help pattern mathings...
21:25:12 <ehird`> (which i need, to be able to move the toad around the board without enumerating every single possibility)
21:25:34 <oklopol> hehe, you can't do that really .P
21:26:41 <oklopol> just do like me and brute force each possibility of the length X pattern ;)
21:26:57 <ehird`> i'll make it 5x3 instead
21:27:36 <ehird`> i need to do diagonals too
21:27:43 <ehird`> :( please make it nicer :P
21:28:02 <oklopol> i think instead of managing to do a nice "more flexible thue", i've actually created the worlds suckiest language.
21:28:46 <oklopol> i created the language to test how hard parsing can be made, actually
21:28:53 <ehird`> this language is interesting
21:29:00 <ehird`> just add some more power to it
21:29:05 <ehird`> and it will be very interesting for coding stuff
21:29:13 <ehird`> automata coding will be trivial
21:29:17 <ehird`> even non-programmers could use it, i'd imagine
21:29:24 <oklopol> i'll make another small language to code stuff like "count neighbours"
21:29:34 <oklopol> by letting you put variables in the pattern.
21:29:55 <ehird`> that would be good actually
21:30:02 <oklopol> that way, instead of begin 65656 lines, GOL would be about 20 ;)
21:30:04 <ehird`> make tode what you have now, and various integrated sub-languages
21:30:15 <ehird`> and have them interact
21:30:17 <ehird`> that would be really cool
21:30:33 <ehird`> i think the first thing you should add though
21:30:36 <ehird`> is a wildcard i can use in patterns
21:30:40 <ehird`> meaning: "anything goes here"
21:30:51 <ehird`> and they have a number
21:31:04 <ehird`> and some syntax like $num in the replacement
21:31:08 <ehird`> would put the wildcard there
21:31:15 <ehird`> instantly, everything becomes much more simple
21:31:40 <oklopol> yeah, that would be a lot stronger
21:32:09 <ehird`> then add some way to make replacements bigger than sources
21:32:14 <ehird`> and already, you have a very powerful language
21:32:31 <ehird`> actually, you already have that
21:32:34 <oklopol> i'll add it tomorrow, right now i'm hooked on death note :|
21:32:41 <ehird`> since the patterns are seperated by blank lines
21:32:46 <ehird`> you can just put two grids like
21:33:26 <oklopol> currently, btw, the syntax might be a bit different than what your intuition might tell you
21:33:43 <ehird`> worth noting by the way:
21:33:45 <ehird`> IndexError: list index out of range
21:33:59 <oklopol> ah, must be my new optimization ;)
21:34:05 <oklopol> i didn't have much time to test it :P
21:34:32 <oklopol> pretty much everywhere? :P
21:34:53 <oklopol> the problem is the one without the optimization was a verrrry stupid one
21:35:16 <ehird`> it seems to happen when you run out of replacements to make
21:35:18 <oklopol> it actually tested every pattern for every subarray of the big array
21:36:13 <oklopol> ah, i see what the problem is
21:36:49 <ehird`> definately though, three things and this would be perfect:
21:37:02 <ehird`> a way to say "arbitary number of Xs", then copy that arbitary number in the output
21:37:11 <ehird`> a way to say "anything", then copy that thing in the output
21:37:17 <ehird`> a way to make replacements bigger than patterns
21:38:27 <oklopol> what would it mean actually, that the replacements were bigger?
21:38:41 <oklopol> because i simply don't know what would happen :|
21:38:50 <ehird`> just some way to expand the board
21:38:57 <ehird`> (also, what does the box above exec do?)
21:38:58 <oklopol> you can just expand to the right, and make room
21:39:03 <oklopol> but if you have a 2d array
21:39:18 <oklopol> you have to expand in both directions... and... i have no idea what the result should be
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21:40:37 <oklopol> word of warning: it's dangerous changing the code when it's running... somehow tkinter seems to deadlock or something no matter how cool threading i tried to add :D
21:41:09 <oklopol> and no, i'm not rereading the code while running
21:42:17 <ehird`> make it possible to run patterns ON THE CODE
21:42:20 <oklopol> ehird`: if you want replacements to be able to be bigger than the original array, please show me an example of one such replacement
21:42:38 <oklopol> but, not sure what the syntax would be, yet
21:43:09 <oklopol> hmm, you could just have the whole code be the thing to pattern match on, except rules wouldn't match themselves :P
21:44:03 <oklopol> that would require me to leave the code unparsed, and would slow it down quite a lot
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21:45:54 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: i forgot the movie you mentioned :|
21:46:19 <oklopol> ehird`: i was thinking i'd do stuff tomorrow, possibly that then, too
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22:05:48 * ehird` would love a screenshot of ii ;)
22:06:08 <ehird`> (irc client that has an in file and you cat to an out file to use it, haha... not much screenshot potential)
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23:44:28 <oklopol> a part of me wants to sleep, most of me thinks it'd be weak not to be able to watch a few episodes first.
23:47:10 <oklopol> i finally collapsed under the pressure of my anime-geek friends
23:47:38 <oklopol> usually it's that stupid swordplay, i can't stand that
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23:55:37 <GregorR> So, oklopol discovered anime porn.
23:55:48 <GregorR> A lot of "sword"play, yes.
00:03:29 <oklopol> by swords i mean that medieval theme they have going for some reason
00:03:51 <oklopol> well, i don't actually watch much hentai, it's a bit boring imo
00:04:59 <GregorR> Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure
00:05:17 <oklopol> hmm, i'm not sure why i'd lie about that :)
00:05:44 <oklopol> i do admit i watch porn multiple hours a day.
00:05:51 <bsmntbombdood> Was that the first time someone sang the National Anthem into your ass?
00:10:11 <oklopol> i do like watching hentai as long as they're not having the actual sex, once the repeation of two pictures begins, it gets pretty stupid
00:13:27 <oklopol> i haven't actually seen a hentai *movie* with tentacle monsters, i might enjoy that, dunno
00:13:39 <oklopol> that's not something you often see in regular porn
00:14:09 <oklopol> (well octopuss..es(?) sometimes)
00:15:52 <oklopol> hmm, wonder if the shop's still open
00:16:39 <oklopol> hmm... for some reason i don't like drinking water
00:16:45 <oklopol> perhaps because it's so easy to get.
00:18:03 <bsmntbombdood> http://tomoyo.lenin.ru/Sawatari/Picture6.jpg <--- lol octo-hickies
00:19:31 <oklopol> well, it's one thing to have them suck you, another to... find them a natural environment in ones body
00:19:53 <oklopol> i guess that goes for any object.
00:20:11 <oklopol> hmm, i'm making a lot of sense.
00:24:14 <oklopol> ...i realized i need clothes to go out :|
00:32:55 <oklopol> 3 min and shortbus is ready
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02:37:04 <pikhq> I nominate Ruby for "most esoteric syntax of a P-language".
02:37:19 <pikhq> (using Gregor's notion that Ruby is an honorary P-language)
02:40:49 <pikhq> {foo} == do foo end == foo
02:41:24 <pikhq> Sigils specify the *scope* of a variable.
02:42:12 <pikhq> puts("Foo") == puts "Foo"
02:43:06 <pikhq> {|x| x x} is how they write (lambda x (x x)).
02:44:03 <pikhq> {"foo" => bar, "baz" => qux} is how they write a hash map.
02:45:00 <pikhq> Regexps are part of the core syntax.
02:45:08 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: I'm discussing the syntax.
02:45:19 <pikhq> If you want to get technical, *all syntax is superficial*.
02:45:36 <pikhq> You can just convert all of it into a parse tree and express the same damned thing, after all. . .
02:45:40 <bsmntbombdood> but all the things you bring up are simple, 1-to-1 transformations
02:45:52 <pikhq> Which are still ugly.
02:46:24 <pikhq> Hmm. Even the regexps as *part of the syntax*?
02:47:39 <pikhq> And Perl's an ugly language, with foo "bar" meaning foo("bar") meaning &foo("bar") meaning &foo "bar".
02:48:17 <bsmntbombdood> which is similar to ruby's foo "bar" == foo("bar")
02:48:33 <pikhq> Which is bad syntax.
02:49:06 <lament> does it annoy you that (5+5) means the same as 5+5 ?
02:49:07 <pikhq> Fine. I nominate Ruby for worst syntax, instead.
02:50:00 <lament> in haskell, that's exactly the reason why foo "bar" and foo ("bar") are equivalent
02:50:23 <pikhq> That, itself, is different.
02:51:01 <pikhq> In Perl, foo("bar") is treated like a similar C expression. . . And foo "bar" has the same reaction occur.
02:51:32 <pikhq> It's not because of some nice syntax feature like expr := ( :expr: )
02:51:37 <bsmntbombdood> i'm suprised you say ruby has worse syntax than perl
02:51:47 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Hmm.
02:51:55 <pikhq> Thinking back to Perl, Perl is a bit worse.
02:52:18 <lament> in perl, anything could mean anything, and there's no formal syntax
02:52:39 <lament> what's that feature where you can use _any_ marker to delimit a string?
02:53:32 <lament> the semantics are, "everything from this point till the word Cabbage is a string... foo..bar...Cabbage"
02:53:58 <pikhq> "puts << Cabbage" I believe, would be the offending syntax.
02:54:25 <lament> that's _insane_, syntax-wise.
02:54:57 <lament> forth is the only other language i know that allows such tricks
02:55:16 <pikhq> Is it too much to ask for a *sane* language syntax?
02:55:45 <lament> pikhq: no, haskell's right there!
02:55:49 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Right; thank God for the Lisps, and all the other donations to good syntax heaven that have been made.
02:57:06 <pikhq> I'd say that CL has a good few WTFs.
02:57:33 <lament> haskell haskell haskell
02:57:47 <lament> haskell syntax is god. i love it.
02:58:02 <lament> it's a perfect balance between human-readability and sanity
02:58:19 <pikhq> Brainfuck's lack of syntax is awesome.
02:58:22 <lament> bsmntbombdood: no it's not. It's exactly as simple as it should be.
02:58:28 <pikhq> Well, it has syntax. . .
02:58:54 <lament> bsmntbombdood: making it any more simple would shift the balance towards computer-readability and away from human-readability
02:59:07 <lament> and we know where that leads
02:59:42 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: The "[" command shall define a goto. The "]" shall go to the goto number in the current cell.
03:00:18 <pikhq> Happy with syntaxless non-TC Brainfuck? :p
03:03:41 <pikhq> Actually, I think that the ] command would, in effect, be able to be used to select among cell-max conditions. . .
03:05:09 <pikhq> [+][+][+][+][+][-----] Also, it produces this interesting infinite loop.
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08:22:47 <immibis> it's an irc channel, oerjan.
08:22:53 <oerjan> nope, i see no oerjan around here.
08:23:03 <EgoBot> 1 ais523: daemon ul bf
08:23:51 <immibis> !ul i wonder what this daemon does.
08:25:35 <oerjan> it's an underload interpreter in brainfuck
08:25:48 <oerjan> it sends the result to ais523, who is not present
08:26:39 <EgoBot> 1 ais523: daemon ul bf
08:26:41 <EgoBot> 2 immibis: daemon cat bf
08:28:26 <immibis> i need at least 5 people for this question.
08:29:26 * immibis should make a bot that bridges between a channel and a query - for example so egobot could be used on other channels.
08:30:18 <immibis> what a rude quine - (:aSS):aSS
08:32:50 * immibis waits patiently for someone to ask what he's waiting for
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08:35:56 * jix waits until this is over
08:35:58 * immibis waits patiently for someone to ask what he's waiting for.
08:36:19 <oerjan> immibis: what are you waiting for?
08:36:33 * immibis was waiting for someone to ask what he was waiting for.
08:37:07 * immibis finds all of jix's bits and screws them together
08:37:11 <oerjan> stuck in an recursive loop, i see.
08:38:03 <oerjan> IRP-ERROR 4: RESOURCE REAVAILABLE
08:39:22 <immibis> who thinks the new zealand basketball team beating the australian basketball team, is more likely than the new zealand fencing team beating the australian fencing team? (ignoring the fact that i have no idea if either of those countries actually has a fencing team_
08:41:17 <oerjan> IRP-ERROR 57: LOCAL GEOGRAPHIC MODULE UNAVAILABLE
08:41:52 <immibis> who thinks that it is more likely that team A will beat team B at the basketball game, than that team C will beat team D at the fencing?
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08:48:12 <immibis> *beep* non-matching switch statement on line 12, character 6; possible cases are "basketball" and "fencing".
08:49:07 <oerjan> IRP-SUGGESTION: INTERPRETERS WITH IMPROVED GEOGRAPHIC MODULES ARE NOW AVAILABLE
08:49:52 <immibis> IRP-ERROR 999378484292823: IRSSI IS UNKNOWN INTERPRETER COMPILER IRP......
08:50:07 <immibis> IRP-ERROR 13941234123123124252936242134: IRP-ERROR NUMBER TOO BIG
08:50:18 <immibis> IRP-ERROR 801: No Error Occurred
08:51:42 <oerjan> IRP-CLARIFICATION: REFERRING TO ^_`
08:51:42 <immibis> IRP-ERROR: TOO MANY IRP-ERRORS; REQUIRES MANUAL RESET; PLEASE RUN RESET COMMAND
08:52:16 <oerjan> IRP-ERROR: GreaseMonkey MISIDENTIFIED AS COMING RATHER THAN LEAVING
08:53:58 <immibis> details: needs to be more specific. For more details, type IRP-BUG-INFO 1123
08:57:54 <immibis> IRP-BUG-INFO-RESPONSE (1123) For more details, type IRP-BUG-INFO 1123
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14:33:13 <ehird`> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/80956 Emacs now edits videos. Millions of nerds patch GRUB support for it, set it as OS.
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17:47:41 <Fa1r> that is just fine
17:48:03 <Fa1r> go to #irp and try... please somebody do my report, thanks
17:48:12 <Fa1r> ... things happen.
17:53:17 <Fa1r> Sgeo: how can i help?
17:53:33 <Sgeo> What did you want w/ #irp ?
17:54:02 <Fa1r> Sgeo: actually nothing.
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19:55:57 <ehird`> i'm writing a text editor for emacs
19:56:00 <ehird`> it's an interesting platform
19:57:06 <oerjan> i hear there is already a vi clone
19:57:51 <ehird`> what about an emulator for the Editor Macros set for the TECO editor?
19:58:00 <ehird`> that editor was nice, it spawned an OS called emacs
19:59:03 <RodgerTheGreat> one really has to wonder why GNU feels the need for things like HURD or Linux- they ought to just make emacs fully self-hosting and be done with it.
19:59:43 <ehird`> http://www.eskimo.com/~rstarr/poormfa/travesty2.html i hate having to port perl code to other languages.
19:59:47 <ehird`> having is a bit of a misnomer
19:59:48 <oerjan> i think it's implementing POSIX compatibility that holds them back
19:59:50 <ehird`> i'm doing this for fun :)
20:00:45 <RodgerTheGreat> oerjan: which raises the question "how necessary is POSIX, anyway?".
20:01:06 <RodgerTheGreat> it seems rather odd that POSIX is the one standard nearly all operating systems are trending towards
20:01:25 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: it sucks less than any other standard people can think of
20:01:30 <ehird`> (it still blows though)
20:02:28 <RodgerTheGreat> I would prefer to think of it as a "best effort thusfar", not unlike C. It's not optimal, but there isn't a fully acceptable replacement currently.
20:05:00 <lament> that seems to be exactly what ehird` said
20:06:14 <RodgerTheGreat> which, I'm certain, is a rant you guys have already heard at least part of
20:12:36 <ehird`> i just finished porting that perl code
20:15:33 <ehird`> Does perl count as an esoteric language?
20:15:59 <RodgerTheGreat> The topic of "standard" programs to implement in a new language came up a while back. What do y'all think of Towers Of Hanoi?
20:16:29 <RodgerTheGreat> with good coding style regulations, you can make it a significantly less horrible language, though.
20:17:44 <ehird`> http://www.eskimo.com/~rstarr/poormfa/travesty2.html this counts as esoteric code i think
20:17:51 <ehird`> i ported it to python and it produces completely different output
20:18:48 <ehird`> it's a simple algorithm you'd think it'd be simple
20:19:27 <ehird`> the translation in question: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1192735145.html
20:19:30 <ehird`> by all accounts it SHOULD be the same
20:19:52 <ehird`> online version for easy testing: http://www.eskimo.com/~rstarr/poormfa/travesty.html
20:20:14 <ehird`> hello world, order 3, 250 chars of output, in that produces hello world over and over and over again
20:20:22 <ehird`> with my port it produces hel over and over again
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20:40:16 <ehird`> woot, i think i got the travesty generator done
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21:00:08 <oklopol> (oerjan) i think it's implementing POSIX compatibility that holds them back <<< you must mean PSO
21:00:16 <ehird`> oklopol: finally, you're alive
21:00:27 * Sgeo has PSOX on highlight
21:00:59 <Sgeo> Holds what back?
21:01:10 <Sgeo> What, me having PSOX on highlight?
21:01:44 <Sgeo> oklopol, hello?
21:01:58 <ehird`> oklopol: #esoteric-blah hello?
21:02:00 <Sgeo> What were you saying about psox?
21:02:22 <oklopol> i have "porn" and "kiddie" on highlight
21:02:50 <oklopol> Sgeo: i said: (oerjan) i think it's implementing POSIX compatibility that holds them back <<< you must mean PSOX
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21:05:56 <Sgeo> holds what back, and how can I help?
21:06:27 <ehird`> oklopol: check #esoteric-blah
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00:35:17 <pikhq> In the name of boredom, I have developed a new Brainfuck-based language.
00:35:38 <pikhq> Adds variables, strings, and some shorthand. . .
00:35:51 <pikhq> Newline, demonstration of shorthand.
00:36:02 <pikhq> :hello:"Hello, world!\n":hello:[>.]
00:36:14 <pikhq> Demonstration of strings & variables.
00:36:29 <ehird`> argh what was that saying about bf extensions again?
00:36:30 <ehird`> pretend i just said it
00:36:54 <pikhq> Like strapping things onto a skateboard to make a racecar?
00:37:50 <pikhq> What I do is more like strapping things onto a skateboard to entertain myself.
00:38:04 <pikhq> If I want a *serious language* out of it, I'd not start with Brainfuck.
00:39:00 <pikhq> Oh, it also adds comments.
00:39:34 <pikhq> {What's in here is guaranteed to never run. Yay!!! +-[]><.,}
00:40:33 <pikhq> Not exactly implemented anything yet. . .
00:40:38 <ehird`> what about {to do blah use command { etc etc}
00:40:42 <ehird`> but it has { in the comment text
00:41:09 <pikhq> Perhaps just use // to newline for comments instead.
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01:50:25 <ttm> [-][Here's another popular comment format. +-[]><.,]
01:51:01 <pikhq> ttm: I wanted to provide such a comment without having a cleared cell convenient.
01:52:16 <ttm> Usually ']' occur pretty often in a brainfuck program, and you can put a comment after any one of them without having to remember anything about program state...
01:52:27 <ttm> though you have to balance brackets within the comment.
01:54:22 <ttm> Anyway, no reason not to add a comment format. The thing that bugs me is when people add a comment format as their ONLY language extension, and then call the language "brainfuck" :)
01:55:50 <pikhq> What annoys *me* is when people add features to Brainfuck that demonstrate signifigant stupidity & lack of creativity. . .
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06:55:26 <GregorR-Win3> I'm on Windows 3.11 (in case you couldn't guess) :P
06:56:29 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: no, my life is perfect
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07:12:28 <oklopol> 3.11 was nice, i remember playing with it for hours when i was a kid
07:12:48 <oklopol> just changing the color theme was something so cool i almost pooped my pants
07:25:04 <GregorR-Win3> Now, djgpp + rsxntdj = modern compiler w/ Win32s support ...
07:25:15 <GregorR-Win3> And Open Watcom = semi-modern compiler with Win16 support ...
07:25:29 <GregorR-Win3> Somewhere in this, something amazing is waiting to be uncovered.
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12:06:35 <ais523> !daemon ul bf http://pastebin.ca/raw/367774
12:06:57 <ais523> Sorry, the topic told me to /query EgoBot, and I didn't realise at the time that would mean nobody else could use the Underload daemon
12:07:16 <ais523> there's the command to install it, anyway, if people want to use it in future
12:07:41 * ais523 is the sort of logreader who suddenly continues conversations that ended days ago with no warning
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12:45:37 <EgoBot> 1 ais523: daemon ul bf
12:45:39 <EgoBot> 2 immibis: daemon cat bf
12:46:14 <ais523> I've rejigged the Underload daemon to output here now
12:46:37 <oerjan> i'm just surprised it's still #1?
12:46:57 <ais523> well, presumably it doesn't change the number of a running process
12:47:14 <ais523> so 1 was the first free process number
12:47:45 <ais523> (by the way, my client is linking your comment to suggest you were referring to a channel called 1?)
12:48:34 <oerjan> why what a STUPID, STUPID client you have :P
12:49:34 <ais523> As far as I can tell, it predates automatic auth and also I haven't figured out a way to get it to take logs
12:49:56 <ais523> Feel free to CTCP VERSION me (as ever); you'll recognise the client's name, but it has a very low version number
12:50:25 <oerjan> i don't understand "predates automatic auth". Didn't the _original_ irc client have that?
12:50:37 <ais523> Just for fun, here's the version number of the attached browser: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20040414
12:51:06 <ais523> oerjan: if it did, it was more advanced than this client, or this client is really awful in trying to find options
12:51:22 <ais523> I meant 'this client's UI is so bad I can't figure out how to do it'
12:56:38 <oerjan> i am wondering if the passwords is a case of a feature starting to be used again after a long period of being so rare that new clients stopped supporting them...
12:57:14 <ais523> I hope the same happens with HTTP PUT
12:57:45 <ais523> GET requests may have been all that were used before, but with wikis beginning to take over, that's part of the spec that's just crying out to be implemented in all modern browsers
12:58:09 <ais523> (except IE, of course, which will implement something with vaguely similar functionality and entirely different syntax)
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14:53:39 <ehird`> hahah that is clever, i never thought of this:
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17:18:54 <GregorR> http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/
17:19:00 <GregorR> http://www.google.com/search?q=rsxntdj
17:22:53 <ehird`> djgpp is a dos compiler
17:23:36 <ehird`> rsxntdj is Really Stupid Xabbreviation Name To DJ Jam
17:24:08 <GregorR> rsxntdj is some garbage for DJGPP to make it compile for Windows.
17:24:25 <GregorR> More importantly, one of rsxntdj's supported targets is Win32s (unlike MingW etc)
17:31:01 <ehird`> (or should i say FORTH FUN)
17:31:17 <GregorR> Or should I say it fun is yes
17:31:30 <ehird`> i personally couldn't use it to develop real things right now (i'm not accustomed to it yet, it's still a bit alien to me) but it is really, really fun
17:31:34 <ehird`> i love the crazy compilation model
17:31:43 <ehird`> it's the most non-intuitive thing you could think of
17:32:15 <GregorR> Honestly, /me considers stack languages to be an excellent target of compilation, not so much an excellent type of language to write in :p
17:32:41 <ehird`> they're such fun though
17:33:52 <ehird`> : FAC DUP 2 <= IF DROP 1 ELSE DUP 1- FAC * THEN ;
17:34:00 <ehird`> ^ stupid factorial, but it looks fun :P
17:34:14 <ehird`> also, i don't think forth has fancy things like PRODUCT by default ;)
17:36:44 <ehird`> also, forth should always be written in entirely uppercase, contrary to some HERETIC'S opinions
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19:56:24 <ehird`> an emacs-like project would get a lot further if it was started right from the top as a platform, albeit one biased to document editing
19:56:32 <ehird`> instead of starting out like a text-editor
19:56:36 <ehird`> it could even produce something decent
19:57:02 <ehird`> i might have a go at that.
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20:06:01 <ehird`> i don't want to base it on lisp though :-)
20:07:20 * oerjan thought ehird` was saying brainfuckmas
20:07:30 <oerjan> that would be some holiday...
20:07:38 <ehird`> wow, er, i don't even WANT to know
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20:11:49 <ehird`> hmm, it seems there are not many languages simple enough to be used on-the-fly for simple tasks (i.e. out of the coding context) and that are powerful enough to use for scripting it and also coding most of it
20:16:58 <oerjan> is this the excel kind of "used on-the-fly for simple tasks" or the perl or haskell kind? (neither of the latter are simple)
20:17:09 <ehird`> the emacs-style, really
20:17:14 <oerjan> for that matter, excel may not be either
20:17:25 <ehird`> in emacs, you use lisp very very often
20:17:36 <ehird`> (M-x kind of masks it, though)
20:19:47 <oklopol> i use python for *everything*
20:20:03 <ehird`> python's statement/expression distinction makes it kind of useless
20:20:24 <ehird`> IF cond THEN <run 2 peices of code> ELSE blah
20:20:28 <ehird`> write that in one line of python.
20:20:30 <oklopol> it makes it suck, but it's the best i know anyway
20:20:32 <ehird`> then write me a nested if.
20:20:48 <ehird`> remember, we can't have multiple lines: this is terminated by a return key, in a special line in the text editor
20:20:55 <ehird`> #python will scold you for using it
20:20:59 <ehird`> and it gets really, really ugly for nesting
20:21:16 <oklopol> and that's *all* that matters
20:21:30 <oklopol> we're talking about quick on-the-fly coding here.
20:21:44 <ehird`> no, it is NOT all that matters
20:21:51 <ehird`> it needs to be simple to write
20:22:06 <oklopol> probably, it's not really a matter of language
20:22:32 <oklopol> if you need to write a file, save, compile, and run, i'm never gonna use it
20:22:59 <oklopol> if there's a quick interface where i can just write code and see the result, of course i'll use it for everything
20:23:08 <oklopol> be it lisp, python, perl, or whaddyahave
20:23:33 <ehird`> anyway, if there was something like python but with an easy syntax for nested if/elses/etc on one line
20:23:36 <ehird`> i would be using it already
20:23:39 <oklopol> i'd prolly use haskell more than python, since i like it better, but ghc won't let me copy / paste
20:24:19 <ehird`> that's what your terminal does.
20:24:35 <oklopol> yeah, as i said, it's not a matter of language
20:24:37 <ehird`> anyway, haskell probably isn't suitable for one-liners to perform basic actions
20:25:13 <oklopol> it's unbelievably suitable for anything that doesn't require the IO monad
20:25:14 <ehird`> normally they will be state-laden
20:25:25 <ehird`> you would do something like:
20:25:32 <ehird`> select text within blah, copy it, delete it
20:26:03 <oklopol> yeah, we need a dirty haskell.
20:26:54 <oklopol> or a python with c-style nesting
20:27:12 <ehird`> maybe python + block ender
20:27:26 <ehird`> except, no nice syntax to do it
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20:34:17 <ehird`> anyone want to plug their favourite language for the idea? :-)
20:35:21 <Sgeo> My favorite language is Python
20:35:40 <ehird`> Sgeo: please read conversations before replying to them...
20:35:45 <ehird`> you have pgup/pgdown keys.
20:36:16 <Sgeo> "python with c-style nesting"?
20:36:21 <Sgeo> What does that mean??
20:36:27 <ehird`> not just 3 lines above
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20:39:27 * oerjan points out that haskell has C-style nesting if you want
20:39:58 <ehird`> i can't imagine how that'd look
20:40:02 <ehird`> how would you express:
20:40:28 <ehird`> (in any way you'd like, probably the most haskelly way:) "if the document starts with 'blah', delete all occurances of 'blah'. otherwise, delete all occurances of 'foo'"
20:40:39 <ehird`> it seems like it'd be pretty ugly :|
20:44:16 <oerjan> main = interact $ \s -> if "blah" `isPrefixOf` s then removeAll "blah" s else removeAll "foo" s
20:44:30 <oerjan> unfortunately removeAll is not builtin
20:45:04 <oerjan> might be something in Text.RegEx
20:45:05 <ehird`> documents likely wouldn't be strings, though
20:45:30 <ehird`> there'd be possibilities for formatting info, graphics (embedded svg? maybe.), etc
20:45:31 <oerjan> interact pipes a file through as a string
20:45:35 <ehird`> (of course, not for code :P)
20:45:48 <ehird`> can also be a stream, too, right?
20:46:24 <oerjan> if by stream you mean a lazy, possibly infinite string
20:46:24 <ehird`> but yeah, i'm not sure i'd want to write the above quickly on one line just to do that to a document
20:46:35 <ehird`> it just doesn't seem to be suited to that
20:47:46 <oerjan> well if you are writing an editor in Haskell you would probably have another datatype and convenience functions for that
20:50:00 <oerjan> although embedded haskell is not really convenient yet
20:50:20 <ehird`> it strikes me as odd that there's not a language really suited to the purpose of this
20:50:30 <ehird`> you'd think similar embedding (although perhaps not as extreme) would be very commonplace
20:51:05 <oerjan> lua is a language dedicated to embedding
20:53:31 <ehird`> but lua is kinda meh :/
21:00:10 <oklopol> oerjan: python was the one accused of lacking that
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22:40:33 * ehird` decides he hates textmate
22:40:36 <ehird`> i might try textwrangler
22:40:59 <ehird`> SimonRC: textmate = mac editor
22:41:06 <GregorR> Try Microsoft Write for Windows 3.11
22:41:14 <ehird`> GregorR: sounds appealing
22:41:14 <GregorR> That's what I do all my programming in.
22:41:25 <ehird`> does it have vi emulation yet?
22:41:35 <ehird`> a version of tetris, maybe?
22:41:55 <SimonRC> GregorR: I hope you are kidding...
22:42:30 <ehird`> SimonRC: Error - sarcasm detector broken
22:42:33 <ehird`> Would you like it fixed?
22:43:28 <ehird`> CONGRATULATIONS! Your amazing new sarcasm detector is installed. We will now test it: I am the elite hacker, and I shall own your computer boxes.(BEEP!BEEP! SARCASM DETECTED!)
22:44:01 <SimonRC> he said it so striaght though...
22:44:04 <oerjan> the sarcasm detector is broken, it doesn't adjust for meta-levels
22:44:16 <ehird`> oerjan: what's your recursive sarcasm parsing depth?
22:44:23 <SimonRC> no, that is a meta-sarcasm detector
22:44:40 <ehird`> new versions have an all-in-one system
22:44:40 <GregorR> Microsoft Write's file format has a small header, then the raw text, then all the formatting, so a small wrapper can allow any compiler to support it, and you can annotate your code!
22:45:07 <ehird`> it's an addon for your parser
22:46:12 <ehird`> that ... completely and utterly does NOT remind me of a certain MS product
22:46:27 <GregorR> (I've been using Windows 3.11 on my laptop to discourage myself from goofing off in class recently :P )
22:46:47 <GregorR> (Clearly it's working, since I can spout details about Microsoft Write's file format :P )
22:47:13 <SimonRC> simpler solution: don't use a laptop
22:47:19 <ehird`> GregorR: i think vista does that just as well
22:47:34 <GregorR> SimonRC: Not a solution: Cannot organize notes or read own handwriting.
22:50:31 <ehird`> nobody commented on my EXTREME VISTA BURN :(
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00:02:56 <ehird`> haha perl regexp's are fun
00:03:04 <ehird`> matches palindromes: /^\W*(?:((.)\W*(?1)\W*\2|)|((.)\W*(?3)\W*\4|\W*.\W*))\W*$/i
00:03:15 <ehird`> matches a well-formed infix arithmetic expression: /^(\d+|\((?1)([+*-])(?1)\)|-(?1))$/
00:05:08 <bsmntbombdood> a cop talking about another cop who died: "i pride myself on being a logical man, but i can't figure out why he died. the only thing i can come up with is that god had some different plan for him."
00:05:22 <ehird`> so much for being a logical man
00:05:30 <ehird`> i love the "god has a plan for X" arguments
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00:08:01 <ehird`> (god has a special plan for YOUR MOM)
00:09:14 <oklopol> ehird`: i take it you're not too religious?
00:09:52 <ehird`> and also completely unspiritual
00:11:30 <GregorR> ... you can be atheist and spiritual?
00:11:46 <ehird`> GregorR: most new age-y people
00:12:05 <oklopol> i'm not sure what the exact meaning of "atheist" is
00:12:11 <ehird`> it works with both commonly used definitions of atheist: no god and no religious beliefs
00:12:26 <ehird`> the real definition of it is basically "no god"
00:12:32 <ehird`> however when i say i am an atheist
00:12:38 <ehird`> i imply that i'm not, say, a buddhist either
00:13:07 <ehird`> this is obvious because if i was a buddhist i'd be meditating over the meaning of the word "atheist" and not talking online ;)
00:13:28 <oklopol> i never believed in a god, sometimes i don't even believe in past
00:13:37 <oklopol> the present seems to exist
00:13:46 <ehird`> SomeGuyAtHome: /nick SomeCaptainObvious
00:13:58 <oklopol> well when people say things like "sixties"
00:13:59 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: spotlight of time belief thing
00:14:08 <GregorR> What Gregor does instead of having silly religious debates is post this URL: http://www.codu.org/blog/?comment=20070628191650
00:14:09 <ehird`> "there is no time line, there is just the present, which morphs"
00:14:52 <ehird`> i'm an atheist because i don't claim myself to be a Santa Claus agnostic
00:14:55 <ehird`> nor a Tooth Fairy agnostic
00:15:03 <ehird`> indeed, not a Celestial Teapot agnostic
00:15:07 <ehird`> so why a God agnostic?
00:15:37 <ehird`> in my personal view, all are stories made up by humans
00:15:37 <GregorR> Because Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy are defined within the scope of our universe, and are therefore things we can reason about.
00:15:37 <oklopol> hmm, i think i'm closer to GregorR in this one
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00:16:36 <ehird`> GregorR: santa claus travels at impossible speeds
00:16:43 <ehird`> and knows all about your personal life
00:16:49 <GregorR> ehird`: Hence why you don't believe in him.
00:16:53 <g4lt-mordant> I'm agnostic on santa claus and on the easter bunny too! you can't prove they're fake, that's my story and I'm sticking to it
00:16:56 <oklopol> well, perhaps it's more that i don't care about religion, what's the term for that?
00:17:04 <ehird`> GregorR: but that's not in the scope of our universe
00:17:07 <ehird`> GregorR: it's impossible
00:17:08 <GregorR> ehird`: He is defined as a component of this universe, but with properties you know to be nonsense.
00:17:16 <GregorR> ehird`: Hence, you disbelieve.
00:17:50 <ehird`> GregorR: same with god!
00:18:20 <GregorR> ehird`: God is not defined to be a component of the universe. Anything which could rationally be called a god must not only be beyond the scope of our universe, but beyond the scope of all universes.
00:18:53 <ehird`> GregorR: i just find no reason to be "undecided" on a fairy tale invented by humans thousands of years ago to control people
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00:19:28 <g4lt-mordant> bot of you are going to be surprised when ooga-booga the subsaharan god of reincarnation makes you into dung bettles!
00:19:31 <GregorR> ehird`: Oh, I certainly disbelieve in every individual god created by humans, I'm just saying that the concept is not something it's reasonable to believe or disbelieve in, since it's not something that can be rationalized.
00:19:52 <ehird`> besides, belief in a god becomes superflouous combined with my beliefs (which are not founded in believing in things that are unmeasurable...)
00:20:02 <ehird`> if there is no soul, heaven/hell is impossible
00:20:08 <ehird`> as there is no "you" to go up there
00:20:14 <ehird`> and i am pretty sure brains don't disappear from corpses
00:20:27 <GregorR> ehird`: You're focused on a very specific definition of religion
00:20:27 <ehird`> therefore, any god would be restricted to, oh, killing of people with lightning bolts
00:20:36 <ehird`> now, personally, i see no reason to believe in a god doing that
00:21:03 <ehird`> His/her/it/flooglebahs existence becomes unneccesary
00:21:09 <oklopol> ehird`: say this is a simulation on a 8-dimensional computer somewhere, your reasoning won't apply.
00:21:18 <GregorR> ehird`: Why can't there be a god that's just running some big simulation and doesn't give a fuck about us? We're just the chemical reactions in that simulation.
00:21:23 <GregorR> Damn, oklopol beat me to the punch.
00:21:38 <ehird`> in either case, belief in him becomes superflous
00:21:51 <ehird`> there's just no reason to believe in one, because nothing changes either way
00:22:04 <GregorR> Holding a disbelief is very different from just not believing.
00:22:33 <ehird`> sure, except once you know about something, and it's a "big" thing like belief in a diety is, you are basically forced into either belief or disbelief
00:23:04 <GregorR> You're allowed to acknowledge that you can't know.
00:23:21 <ehird`> sure, but as for the above reasons
00:23:32 <ehird`> i decide that heck, i don't have the energy to say "oh i don't know"
00:23:50 <ehird`> and because there are no implications, etc. i shall just live my life as if god does not exist
00:23:56 <ehird`> probably i'm right. but i'll never find out either way
00:24:34 <GregorR> You don't have the energy to hold no belief (a zero-energy situation), but you do have the energy to hold a negative belief (which ought to be based on evidence but is not)?
00:24:46 <g4lt-mordant> right, because next lifetime, you'll be a DUNG BEETLE and unable to think about it
00:25:01 <ehird`> g4lt-mordant: you give a convincing argument
00:25:51 <ehird`> GregorR: on another note, this looks hilariously fun http://grables.sourceforge.net/
00:26:20 <ehird`> however i cant see a way to register, i guess i just start a new game right?
00:26:36 <GregorR> Yeah, you don't register accounts etc ... it's a really terrible piece of software :P
00:26:55 <GregorR> I would, but I'm at work :(
00:28:15 <ehird`> i'll play with someone else :P
00:28:46 <fax> hey I'll play it
00:28:57 <fax> what do I do?
00:29:28 <ehird`> GregorR: you done broke it
00:29:37 <ehird`> ehird turned into "tuehird"
00:29:57 <fax> invalid password :|
00:30:11 <ehird`> fax: http://grables.sourceforge.net/libc.php
00:30:26 <ehird`> (i just /msgd you with it)
00:30:34 <fax> ok working now :D
00:30:38 <GregorR> I should actually make games expire after, say, a month X-P
00:30:55 <fax> haha this is getto
00:31:01 <ehird`> right, i am prepared to suck
00:31:07 <ehird`> i haven't played scrabble in ever
00:31:20 <fax> It says 'It's not your turn!'
00:31:28 <oklopol> GregorR: how do i close a file handle that's left open?
00:31:49 <ehird`> hmm, i forgot how to play scrabble :s
00:31:51 <ehird`> you can do diagonals right?
00:32:50 <oklopol> okay... well, the process is prolly open
00:32:56 <oklopol> but i don't wanna kill my python progs
00:33:05 <oklopol> since some of them are important to be kept on
00:33:11 <ehird`> um wow i don't know really any of the libc
00:33:16 <oklopol> and... they're all called python
00:33:19 <ehird`> i have no goddamn i or e
00:33:47 <oklopol> so... could i like get the process id of anything that's keeping the file locked?
00:34:16 * ehird` makes turn, hopes it works
00:34:20 <ehird`> GregorR: it timed out...
00:34:22 <GregorR> oklopol: I think fuser can do that.
00:34:44 <ehird`> the whole site is down?! :|
00:34:55 <fax> you used the magic word
00:35:01 <GregorR> Um, it's working fine for me.
00:35:08 <fax> what do I reload this page or somthing?
00:35:19 <ehird`> but my FUCKING TURN timed out
00:35:23 <ehird`> so you're going to have to WAIT
00:35:32 <ehird`> GregorR: i inputted it as FOP__, is that right for FOPEN?
00:35:36 <fax> It's still your tur
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00:36:01 <fax> well that was a fun game
00:36:26 <oklopol> hmm, how do i kill in the terminal?
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00:36:48 <ehird`> i thought _ was wildcard
00:37:14 <ehird`> right let's try that again
00:37:15 <oklopol> i was afraid to do that, since kill does more serious killing in windows
00:37:30 <GregorR> What does it do in Windows?
00:37:45 <ehird`> i am terrible with this
00:37:47 <ehird`> i think i need new tiles
00:38:11 <ehird`> GregorR: lol this is terribly coded :|
00:38:19 <oklopol> i used to use vba as an easy way to circumvent any protection
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00:38:37 <GregorR> ehird`: Pretty much, yeah.
00:38:37 <oklopol> somehow it was necessary to destroy them once in a while :<
00:38:51 <fax> there are no letters on the board
00:38:56 <oklopol> what a cracker genius i was...
00:39:17 <ehird`> you type into the board, they're text boxes
00:39:26 <fax> there are no letters on the board
00:39:32 <ehird`> yes, i skipped my turn
00:39:39 <ehird`> i couldn't do it with those tiles
00:39:44 <oklopol> GregorR: help meeeee http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p362214241.txt
00:39:55 <fax> Sorry! LONG is invalid!
00:39:55 <fax> You've gained 0 points!
00:40:02 <ehird`> fax: is that a libc function?
00:40:10 <GregorR> long isn't a libc function :P
00:40:14 <ehird`> oklopol: -9 means "-DIEFUCKYOU"
00:40:16 <GregorR> It couldn't be, it's a keyword :P
00:40:17 <ehird`> it kills no matter what
00:40:24 <ehird`> if kill -9 doesn't kill something, your system is b0rked
00:40:31 <ehird`> (you might already know this :P)
00:40:37 <GregorR> Well, not quite "no matter what" ... won't kill zombies 8-D
00:40:55 <ehird`> "Zombie invasion: OVER
00:41:06 <fax> It's not your turn!
00:41:09 <GregorR> ... seriously though, kill -9 won't kill zombies.
00:41:27 <fax> this is -the- most infuriating scrabble game ever
00:41:36 <ehird`> you entered an invalid word
00:41:57 <ehird`> if only there were a function called ope
00:42:12 <ehird`> doesn't it check that there's at least one possibly entry for it :P
00:42:34 <ehird`> i wish malloc was called maloc
00:42:42 <fax> dude I got printf
00:42:47 <fax> lemme start :p
00:43:03 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: i only have 1 l
00:43:21 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: They're playing libc scrabble :P
00:43:21 <fax> You don't have those tiles! " ????
00:43:33 <ehird`> fax: did you have enough for printf in Your Tiles?
00:43:34 <fax> I did previous turn >:|
00:43:44 <ehird`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrabble
00:43:52 <fax> good grief
00:43:58 <fax> I think I'm going to have a heart attack
00:44:07 <ehird`> g4lt-mordant: stab stab stab
00:44:17 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: presumably
00:44:49 <GregorR> It's a superset, I'm just giving them a fair chance :P
00:44:57 <ehird`> fax: god damnit make a turn :P
00:45:00 <ehird`> check the dictionary if you have to!
00:45:13 <fax> god dammit
00:45:16 <bsmntbombdood> where does one find a list of all the posix libc functions?
00:45:29 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: In POSIX, I'd imagine.
00:45:30 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: posix spec
00:45:39 <ehird`> why bother? the site has a dictionary.
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00:45:49 <ehird`> http://grables.sourceforge.net/libc.php?dict
00:45:52 <ehird`> but, you know... that's cheating
00:46:14 <ehird`> i'll just do goddamn "ABS"
00:46:36 <GregorR> You should actually feel pretty good about getting anything down, even just abs :P
00:47:11 <ehird`> damnit, i have "calloc"
00:47:18 <ehird`> but, shares no letters with fgets :P
00:48:16 <ehird`> GregorR: how does it know who's who?
00:48:23 <ehird`> what about two people sharing a router?
00:48:55 <GregorR> ehird`: Uh, by asking you who you are ...
00:49:24 <GregorR> There's no real security at all :P
00:49:30 <GregorR> You could easily take the other person's turn.
00:49:38 <GregorR> This was a project taking all of two hours to write X-P
00:49:43 <fax> Sorry! PRI_TF is invalid!
00:49:46 <ehird`> i might write my own online scrabble server
00:49:50 <ehird`> fax: _ is an underscore
00:49:57 <fax> AAAArghhhhhhh
00:50:00 <ehird`> plenty of libc funcs have _s in, you see
00:50:00 <GregorR> Hahahah, how does that catch people X-D
00:50:55 <ehird`> GregorR: MAKE "BACK" LINK TO THE GAME
00:53:08 <fax> ok your turn
00:53:18 <GregorR> ehird`: I swear it used to >_>
00:53:29 <GregorR> ehird`: Sounds like it's borkled a bit ...
00:53:36 <ehird`> no it links to libc.php
00:53:46 <GregorR> That's pretty much lame :P
00:54:07 <fax> I missed a double word score :/
00:54:31 <ehird`> fax: haha back in your face!!
00:54:49 <fax> how dare you :p
00:54:53 <GregorR> sqrt is a good'n, I don't think I would think of that ...
00:55:02 <ehird`> GregorR: i added sqrt to his sqrt
00:55:07 <ehird`> but over a double letter score this time
00:55:31 <GregorR> ehird`: I saw, pretty mean X-D
00:55:58 <ehird`> game -564. who do you want to be: "" or ""? http://grables.sourceforge.net/libc.php?g=-564
00:56:36 <ehird`> get another SQRT in there
00:56:38 <ehird`> and you will be my hero
00:56:53 <ehird`> imagine a scrabble board filled entirely with one word XD
00:57:51 <fax> Why is there no M on the board?!
00:58:17 <GregorR> If you can't malloc, alloca!
00:59:04 <GregorR> Or, maybe not ... that may not be a libc function >_>
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00:59:27 <GregorR> It allocates on the stack.
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00:59:58 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: So you don't have to clean up after yourself.
01:00:35 <GregorR> Yup, only not runtime-sized :P
01:00:50 <GregorR> Sorry, that was a retard moment.
01:00:59 <GregorR> Yup, it's a runtime-sized array.
01:01:06 <fax> ehird`: it seems to be your go
01:01:08 <ehird`> hey fax make a turn already :P
01:01:27 <fax> that means it neither of our turns
01:01:31 <GregorR> Says 'fax' from the sidelines.
01:01:43 <GregorR> fax: It doesn't refresh itself, by the way :P
01:01:47 <fax> It's not your turn!
01:01:50 <fax> but then I scroll down
01:02:08 <GregorR> Are you logged in as ehird? :P
01:02:33 <fax> ok I moved
01:02:37 <GregorR> Yaaaay back button going to the wrong place X-P
01:02:41 <fax> no I didnt :/
01:02:51 <GregorR> Perhaps the worst piece of software I ever wrote :P
01:02:58 <fax> I hope so :P
01:03:15 <GregorR> I'm not good at user interfaces :P
01:03:21 <fax> I got invalid location trying to add F onto SQRT
01:03:44 <GregorR> Oh good, the logic's effed up too ^^
01:04:25 <fax> double word score
01:05:13 <ehird`> fax: i hijack-reversed your function, dude
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01:06:07 <GregorR> Because itoa isn't in glibc?
01:06:43 <ehird`> fax: make a turn, quick, i want my vangeance :P
01:07:01 <GregorR> (That's when you get vengeance on someone from the comfort of your van)
01:11:31 <ehird`> if i had another L, i'd have calloc with triple word score
01:12:41 <ehird`> ok i'll finish off tomorrow
01:13:01 <fax> ok see you
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01:18:33 <bsmntbombdood> do you think that's overboard for a geography report :/
01:21:38 <oklopol> yay my lib now produces correct(ish) chords
01:22:06 <oklopol> just a bit of trimming to get the wave ends to stop clicking and it's the coolest ever
01:23:15 <bsmntbombdood> "Choosing a partner who tested negative instead of an untested partner reduced the relative risk of HIV infection" lolduh
01:24:45 <GregorR> 70% of people with genital herpes got it from their partner when they had no signs or symptoms of an outbreak.
01:25:05 <GregorR> Which means of course that 30% of people with genital herpes got it from their partner when they had OPEN SORES ON THEIR GENITALS
01:27:41 <oklopol> i was tested for chlamydia once
01:27:56 <oklopol> that was pretty relevant to share
01:28:33 <oklopol> perhaps i should do some sleeping ->
01:28:47 <oklopol> i'll think about this for a while
01:29:05 <oklopol> the wave sounded better than it looked :P
01:29:38 <oklopol> basically i'm back to square one, but... no biggie
01:39:32 <oklopol> i'm kinda making a synthesizing library
01:39:48 <oklopol> although that's just part of the idea
01:39:55 <oklopol> i'm mainly making a composition tool
01:40:47 <oklopol> i will not show the code until it produces a perfect wave
01:41:14 <oklopol> addition of waves currently fucks it up
01:41:26 <oklopol> so you can just play single notes
01:41:41 <oklopol> so it doesn't really do anything yet.
01:41:53 <oklopol> nothing, done in a nice modular manner.
01:42:13 <oklopol> and obfuscated using my whitespaceless coding style.
01:50:01 <oklopol> can you start a sentence with a number in english?
01:50:24 <oklopol> does a subsentence start with uppercase after ";"?
01:50:45 <oklopol> "AIDS is a problem because it makes people die." :P
01:51:14 <oklopol> third word capitalized for some reason
01:51:40 <oklopol> hmm, why am i correcting this, i prolly have no idea.
01:55:17 <oklopol> (26s19, 31e8) what are these?
01:58:21 <oklopol> eyes... closing... okokoko
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02:24:59 <bsmntbombdood> ...he bought me a watch, the same one he bought me 6 months ago
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08:22:01 <immibis> by %s you mean command, filename, or immibis?
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08:50:20 <immibis> er...%s? don't you mean command, filename, identifier, or immibis?
08:50:34 <oerjan> i think it's an abbreviation for immibis
08:50:59 <EgoBot> Bad %s.",szImmibisStr);
08:54:03 <EgoBot> unknown file or system error, directory, information, beep beep, system error, file, system error, system error, system error,"); CallWindowsAPI("CrashThisProgram");"""""""""""""""""SYSTEM ERRORWAERFQ
08:54:54 <oerjan> i think the "beep beep" is sort of revealing
08:56:09 <EgoBot> bash: File or file name.
08:56:12 <oerjan> it's just too hilarious to be a random bug
08:57:21 <immibis> !bf_txtgen unknown file or system error, directory, information, system error, ");CalLWindowsAPII*(CrashTE$SRTESRTSRTFAWERASAARestorePoint?CVWEFRWWindows
08:58:23 <EgoBot> bf_txtgen error: String too long.
09:01:31 <EgoBot> 5 immibis: bashmyheadin
09:01:35 <EgoBot> 1301 +++++++++++[>+++>++++++++++>++++++++++>++++++++++<<<<-]>>+++++++.-------.>---.+++.>+.<<+++++++++.---------.<-.>>>---------.+++.<<--.>>----.<<<.>>+.<++++++.<.>+.>++++++++++.<.>-----.<--------------.++++++++.<.>>>.<--..<++.>.<<++++++++++++.------------.>-----------.>>++++.<.<+.>>------.<++.>++++++++++++.<<+++++++++++++.+++++++.<++++++++++++.------------.>>-----------.>-.<<---
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10:43:05 <oklopol> my grandmother is senile too, she usually asks me whether we've met before everytime i see her
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13:31:28 <bsmntbombdood> oklopol: heh, my grampa at least says i "look familiar"
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17:19:04 <pikhq> Am I the only guy in here with nonsenile grandparents?
17:19:14 <pikhq> (and, for that matter, greatgrandparents)
17:19:35 <ehird`> (But I wanted to say yes.)
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17:35:58 <ehird`> "lisp is a slow, dead language that is difficult to read. and it's for gays. because gays lisp." damn, how could i argue, especially coming from someone called "cockbotherer"
17:36:50 <lament> he's mostly right, though, except that many gays don't lisp.
17:39:15 <pikhq> Lisp can be fast, It's not dead. It's not terribly difficult to read. And, it's for Knights of the Lambda Calculus. ;)
17:40:16 <ehird`> LISP STACK-LANGUAGE CRAZY < . 1 ok
17:40:29 * ehird` has been messing around with crazy forth for too long, methinks
17:41:52 <pikhq> :crazy:[:lisp:+:crazy:-]
17:42:25 <ehird`> i said (< lisp (crazy stack-language))
17:42:32 <ehird`> or, for infix folks, lisp < crazy stack-language
17:43:26 <pikhq> Or, for odder folks, cmp %lisp %crazy_stack_language
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18:49:36 <ehird`> pikhq: <-- in the "lisp < crazy stack-language" language
18:53:13 <ehird`> WHAT IF I HAVE AN UNCLOSED "???? IT WON'T WORK IN FACTOR
18:53:16 <ehird`> (ok, but it will in forth.)
18:54:38 <ehird`> it's interesting, though
18:54:44 <ehird`> have you seen the jonesforth implementation?
18:54:51 <ehird`> it's a tutorial on writing a forth and an implementation in one
18:55:06 <ehird`> it's one GNU as file and one forth file
18:55:16 <ehird`> it walks you through what everything does
18:55:19 <ehird`> and it's really, really suprising
18:55:23 <ehird`> forth requires /so little/
18:55:36 <ehird`> i.e. it doesn't use intel syntax
18:55:43 <ehird`> that is not nonsensical
18:56:44 <ehird`> http://www.annexia.org/_file/jonesforth.s.txt (part one, in asm-land), http://www.annexia.org/_file/jonesforth.f.txt (part two, in just-got-into-forth-land)
18:56:54 <ehird`> it's really worth a read all the way through if you're interested in forth systems
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19:57:53 <bartw> crap, and then i needed lookahead
19:58:05 <ehird`> bartw: nice out of context quote
19:58:29 <bartw> trying to make a statemachine for a parser
19:59:40 <bartw> lookahead is the easy way, i could also merge two statemachines, and see which branch terminates first
20:00:26 <bartw> that would fit the channel
20:01:21 <bartw> but i rather not, the code is allready an unreadable handwritten statemachine, but atleast it works, for now :)
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20:54:20 <oerjan> luckily i came out alive
20:54:33 * pikhq observes oerjan again
20:54:56 <oerjan> recollapsing the wave function with the same observable changes nothing
20:55:10 <ehird`> put that wave function in your pipe and smoke it
20:55:59 <ehird`> there is a universe in which you smoke
20:57:02 * pikhq sticks oerjan in a box with some radioactive material that triggers a cyanide release
20:57:32 <bartw> do alternate universes exsist before being observed ?
20:57:43 <ehird`> there is a universe where they do
20:57:46 <ehird`> and a universe where they don't
21:01:18 <oerjan> http://www.webcomicsnation.com/shaenongarrity/narbonic/series.php?view=archive&chapter=10104
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21:51:13 <ehird`> #esoteric - the only channel so small netsplits have no effect save 2 people
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23:51:53 <EgoBot> system error system error, unknown file or directory helloworld.irp, system error
23:52:03 <GregorR> IRP < stopBastardizingIrp.irp
23:52:19 <GregorR> IRP.language = LANGUAGE_ENGLISH;
23:52:21 <immibis> IRP system("cat < out > out");
23:52:47 <immibis> IRP copy the copy of copy into copy
23:54:17 <EgoBot> stopBastardizingIrp.irp: Unknown file or directory
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00:01:15 <EgoBot> helloworld.irp: Unknown file or directory
00:01:27 <EgoBot> bf/, glass/, linguine/
00:01:37 <EgoBot> dice.glass, hangman.glass, urls.glass
00:01:47 <EgoBot> glass/dice.glass: Unknown file or directory
00:02:05 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: ./files/d: No such file or directory
00:02:09 <EgoBot> 1 ais523: daemon ul bf
00:02:11 <EgoBot> 2 immibis: daemon cat bf
00:02:28 <GregorR> OK, it's not a daemon, so it's just a user command :P
00:02:40 <GregorR> Probably just takes its input and adds "Unknown file or directory"
00:02:45 * immibis slaps GregorR with a rainbow trout
00:02:51 <EgoBot> fddfashfdfdsafds: Unknown file or directory
00:03:01 <EgoBot> asdfjkl;: Unknown file or directory
00:03:20 <immibis> !irp immibis: you suck. irp
00:03:23 <EgoBot> immibis: you suck. irp: Unknown file or directory
00:03:33 <immibis> !irp fatal error: helloworld.irp
00:03:37 <EgoBot> fatal error: helloworld.irp: Unknown file or directory
00:03:59 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
00:04:01 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
00:04:05 <EgoBot> Use: usertrig <command> <trig-command> Function: manage user triggers. <command> may be add, del, list or show.
00:04:19 <EgoBot> (irp): bf ,[.,]+++++++++++[>+++++>+++>++++++++++>++++++++++<<<<-]>+++.>-.<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>.>---.+++.+.<+++++++++.---------.<.<+++++++++++++++++.+++.>>--.-------.<.>>.+++.<<.>-.<<.>>>.<+.--.>++.-----.+++.+++++++.
00:05:15 <pikhq> Is it just me, or are there new EgoBot features?
00:05:34 <immibis> this feature has been around for a long time.
00:06:43 <GregorR> usertrigs predate daemons.
00:06:51 <GregorR> They turned out to be useless, so I added daemons :P
00:06:54 <GregorR> Then nobody used usertrigs.
00:07:25 <pikhq> And you never removed usertigs.
00:07:39 <EgoBot> foo: Unknown file or directory
00:08:42 <ehird`> GregorR: egobot is a veritable hodgepodge, isn't it?
00:09:23 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
00:09:25 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
00:09:40 <GregorR> Daemons are fairly used, the filesystem is never used but I stole the concept from EsoBot so eh *shrugs*
00:09:53 <EgoBot> 1 ais523: daemon ul bf
00:09:55 <EgoBot> 2 immibis: daemon cat bf
00:10:40 <ehird`> i am evil for no specified reason
00:10:59 <EgoBot> pikhq: No such nick/channel
00:11:11 <EgoBot> ehird`: No such nick/channel
00:11:13 <EgoBot> yadayadayada: No such nick/channel
00:11:23 <EgoBot> (ping): bf ,[.,]+++++++++++[>+++++>+++>++++++++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>+++.>-.<++++++++++++++++++++.>>+.<.>++++.++.>.+++++.<<.>-------.-----.<<+++++++++++++++++++++.>>++.<+++++++++++++++.<.>>>.<<<--.>>+++..> ---.<--.
00:11:25 <EgoBot> EgoBot: No such nick/channel
00:11:30 <ehird`> its like the irp daemon
00:11:37 <EgoBot> #esoteric: No such nick/channel
00:11:38 <immibis> but with a different message.
00:11:47 <EgoBot> Use: usertrig <command> <trig-command> Function: manage user triggers. <command> may be add, del, list or show.
00:11:48 <immibis> actually, my client does that.
00:11:49 <GregorR> These commercials advertise that they have 25MPG highway and say you can feel really smart because your gas mileage is so good. My car gets 40MPG. WTF universe do I live in.
00:11:52 <immibis> [12:11] ->> #esoteric :No such nick/channel
00:12:13 <EgoBot> Triggers: decode encode irp ping urls
00:12:27 <immibis> !encode WhatDoesThis Do? I wonder?
00:12:27 <EgoBot> (urls): glass {M[m(_u)(URLs)!(_i)I!(_i)l.?(_u)u.?]}
00:12:31 <EgoBot> 1192921948-inahdkjjaaagclaenheekjafbc
00:12:35 <immibis> !encode WhatDoesThis Do? I wonder?
00:12:39 <EgoBot> 1192921956-jonefedoneaknkiibhbopmllgd
00:12:42 <ehird`> !decode 1192921956-jonefedoneaknkiibhbopmllgd
00:12:52 <immibis> !decode 1192921956-jonefedoneaknkiibhbopmllgd
00:12:53 <ehird`> !decode jonefedoneaknkiibhbopmllgd
00:13:15 <EgoBot> (decode): linguine file://linguine/decode.lng
00:13:17 <EgoBot> (decode): linguine file://linguine/decode.lng
00:13:35 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
00:13:37 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
00:13:39 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
00:13:41 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
00:13:43 <ehird`> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Linguine ah
00:13:54 <GregorR> <EgoBot> HELP, I'm being spammed to death 8-O
00:14:12 <ehird`> GregorR: you. write a cat command
00:14:18 <ehird`> or implement it as a daemon, which would be hardcore
00:14:34 <GregorR> immibis: No, to cat a file from the filesystem.
00:14:36 <ehird`> does it cat FILES, though?
00:14:51 <GregorR> immibis: You need to tell it what language it is X_X
00:14:52 <ehird`> so we can cat stuff on the file system
00:15:01 <immibis> i always make that mistake :P
00:15:16 <GregorR> !cat file://linguine/decode.lng
00:15:19 <EgoBot> file://linguine/decode.lng
00:15:28 <GregorR> Thought that might work :P
00:15:34 <ehird`> well, not command. syntax
00:15:38 <ehird`> which will do as in shells
00:15:46 <ehird`> !cat <file://linguine/decode.lng for a file
00:15:52 <ehird`> !cat <http://blah.com/blah for a web page
00:15:59 <ehird`> this also means that interpreters which can also take files and urls
00:16:02 <ehird`> can be much simplified
00:16:05 <ehird`> as it's all done through < and >
00:16:06 -!- EgoBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:16:12 <ehird`> maybe even a | pipe if you want, but that's hardcore ;)
00:16:13 -!- EgoBot has joined.
00:16:15 <immibis> what to do with file://linguine/../../../../../../../../../../../../../etc/passwd
00:16:21 <ehird`> immibis: it's sandboxed
00:16:58 * immibis wonders why gregorr made egobot quit
00:17:32 * GregorR goes to work on Plof3 for a bit :P
00:17:38 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving").
00:17:50 <ehird`> GregorR: i will give you $39742397234 if you implement <
00:17:54 <ehird`> $239847239872398234 extra if you do >
00:17:59 <ehird`> and $293847293482698723648724628934623986986987236498234623874 for |
00:18:21 * immibis implements < > and | for free because ehird` only offered that to gregorr
00:19:00 <ehird`> can you change egobot? :P
00:19:24 <immibis> i could download the source and change it and send it to gregorr.
00:25:02 <ehird`> !language no longer has to do it itself
00:25:06 <ehird`> and custom programs can have it too!
00:26:15 <immibis> !cat < file://bf/../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../../etc/password
00:26:25 <ehird`> immibis: i already told you how stupid that is
00:26:36 <ehird`> the filesystem is completely seperate from the normal fs
00:26:49 <ehird`> iirc it's not even a real fs
00:26:57 <ehird`> it's a wrapper around some files on an fs
00:27:06 <ehird`> but, the EgoBot running is chrooted afaik
00:33:57 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:38:29 <EgoBot> bsmntbombdude: No such nick/channel
00:39:03 <EgoBot> bsmntbombdood: No such nick/channel
00:40:09 <ehird`> that actually DOES ping
00:41:28 <ehird`> and clients highlight on nick
00:41:29 <EgoBot> (ping): bf ,[.,]+++++++++++[>+++++>+++>++++++++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>+++.>-.<++++++++++++++++++++.>>+.<.>++++.++.>.+++++.<<.>-------.-----.<<+++++++++++++++++++++.>>++.<+++++++++++++++.<.>>>.<<<--.>>+++..>---.<--.
00:41:47 <immibis> it just says nick: No such nick/channel.
00:41:56 <ehird`> and clients will highlight it
00:43:39 -!- ehird` has quit ("Leaving.").
00:51:06 <GregorR> He was so offended by your client's lack of highlighting, he left in a huff.
00:51:32 <immibis> actually it because i kept annoying him.
00:58:31 <immibis> bsmntbombdood, please type the following: !daemon bsmntbombdood bf +[,[.,]+]
00:59:44 <immibis> it has to be in a query between me and egobot, or it shows up wherever it was created
01:00:04 <immibis> ok, NOW !immibis sends a message to me.
01:00:26 <pikhq> !immibis Sure 'bout that?
01:00:49 <immibis> [13:00] <EgoBot> Sure 'bout that?
01:06:11 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
01:06:13 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
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02:22:05 <RodgerTheGreat> if there are 50,000 words, (roughly), and we assume the manual is in BNF or something, about 50 pages for grammar and the rest would fall into vocab
02:22:09 <immibis> do you mean IRP go to hell?
02:22:33 <RodgerTheGreat> about the size of an unabridged dictionary with some additional pages
02:23:30 <immibis> i meant the manual for the command IRP, as in how to invoke it.
02:24:25 <immibis> IRP SAY IRP SAY IRP SAY IRP SAY IRP SAY IRP GO TO HELL
02:28:36 <GregorR> Except that proper IRP is English.
02:35:12 <GregorR> A large and unpredictable subset of English :P
02:38:13 <pikhq> An undefined subset of English.
02:38:41 <GregorR> Nah, it's defined, just based on factors you can't know.
02:39:10 <pikhq> You know, I wonder if a context-free subset of English could be made.
02:39:38 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: oh, certainly. It really depends on how much you want to be able to express.
02:39:58 <GregorR> It'd probably just be sort of clumsy to talk in.
02:40:05 <RodgerTheGreat> for the purposes of conventional programming, you could make one fairly easily.
02:40:22 <pikhq> I want a (potentially useless) English in YACC. ;)
02:40:40 <pikhq> "Add x to y" is probably easy to do context-free.
02:41:28 <RodgerTheGreat> my guess is that you'd end up with something that looked an awful lot like COBOL.
02:54:27 <pikhq> ORKBOL, here we come!
02:54:41 <pikhq> Or maybe just CORK?
02:56:02 <immibis> IRP SAY IRP SAY IRP SAY IRP SAY IRP SAY IRP GO TO HELL
03:01:44 <RodgerTheGreat> That expression- you keep saying it. I don't think it means what you think it means.
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03:02:18 <immibis> firefox just told me "Oops: Firefox cannot load this page for some reason"
03:02:50 <immibis> it either means to say "IRP SAY IRP SAY IRP SAY IRP SAY IRP GO TO HELL" or to say "IRP IRP IRP IRP IRP" and go to hell.
03:03:01 <immibis> actually, i typed in about:neterror into the title bar
03:03:14 <immibis> but that won't stop me sending it to www.worsethanfailure.com
03:04:35 <RodgerTheGreat> my interpreter module won't parse expressions that use more than one level of parentheses because I don't care enough
03:05:00 <RodgerTheGreat> the same goes for recursive statements or anything repetitive
03:05:15 <bsmntbombdood> when did the daily what-the-fuck become the daily worse-than-failure?
03:05:37 <immibis> it still abbreviates to WTF though.
03:06:11 <galt> bsmntbombdood, about a year agot, give or take
03:06:35 <galt> I think dailywtf.com still works though
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03:07:22 <immibis> and also one where AVG Antivirus told me that it was out-of-date just after it updated itself.
03:08:02 <immibis> worsethanfailure.com even loads ads from syndication.thedailywtf.com
03:25:08 <immibis> IRP (goToPlace (getPlaceFromList (getPlaceList "Places not in this world") "Hell"))
03:25:36 <immibis> [15:25] [NickServ PING Reply] : 1 minute 58.906 seconds
03:25:36 <immibis> guess something must be up with my client today
03:44:52 <bsmntbombdood> http://sexualidad.wordpress.com/2006/04/17/sexo-en-grupo/ , yay studies about sex
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04:26:10 <GregorR> Deterministic Finite Automaton
04:26:30 <GregorR> What are you doing on #esoteric if you don't know that expansion :P
04:27:03 * immibis wonders what he's doing on #esoteric as he didn't know that expansion
04:33:32 <pikhq> I didn't think of it right away.
04:33:40 <pikhq> I was getting assraped in FreeCiv, though.
04:34:56 <GregorR> That's my experience with FreeCiv too.
04:35:13 <pikhq> That's the first time I've lost. . .
04:35:46 <pikhq> A free software Civilization game. . .
04:36:04 <GregorR> pikhq: Yeah? Well grep 'Gregor Richards' `find ~/freeciv/src -type f`
04:37:39 <pikhq> Also, the hard AI cheats.
04:37:47 <pikhq> I'm truly, truly convinced that it cheats.
04:39:42 <pikhq> GregorR: You may wish to know this. . .
04:39:53 <pikhq> $ grep 'Gregor Richards' `find . -type f`
04:40:15 <GregorR> OK, I don't know if any of my code actually survives :P
04:40:32 <pikhq> Not actually contributed since 1.14.2?
04:41:14 <pikhq> Well, there's been a rewrite since then. . .
04:41:42 <GregorR> Well, that explains that :P
04:41:52 <GregorR> I haven't played it in a while, I'm frustrating awful at it :P
04:42:21 -!- galt has changed nick to [[g4lt]].
04:42:25 <pikhq> I'm usually good at it. . .
04:42:49 <pikhq> Although the hard AI has convinced me that largepox rules ought to be the default. :p
04:43:06 * pikhq is used to playing with 3 cities. . . Producing about 500 bulbs/turn. . .
04:47:38 <bsmntbombdood> i wonder if solving sudokus (or similar game) is turing complete
04:48:20 <pikhq> What exactly would the act of solving a game being turing complete *entail*?
04:48:27 <pikhq> Capable of being solved on a Turing machine?
04:48:39 <pikhq> The game itself *being* a Turing machine?
04:50:36 -!- [[g4lt]] has changed nick to [[g4lt]]-somethi.
04:50:46 <immibis> [16:45] * pikhq is used to playing with 3 cities. . . Producing about 500 bulbs/turn. . . <--- what?
04:51:17 <pikhq> What, don't play Civ?
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04:51:57 <bsmntbombdood> immibis: sexual deviants like him are dangerous to society
04:52:09 <pikhq> A bulb is the unit of scientific research in FreeCiv. . .
04:52:30 -!- g4lt-sb100-away has changed nick to [[g4lt]].
04:52:40 <bsmntbombdood> translation: "my sex-cult is a danger to YOUR CHILDREN!!"
04:52:47 <GregorR> It's also an unsafe sexual toy for anal fetishists *shrugs*
04:54:12 <bsmntbombdood> i've been thinking that paraphilias are just sexual orientations
04:56:11 <bsmntbombdood> males who are androphilic aren't diseased...so why should males who are pedophilic be?
05:03:50 <RodgerTheGreat> this is an instance where the lines between disease, disorder and natural genetic variation become very fuzzy.
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08:59:08 <immibis> IRP (CrashProgram (GetCrashMethodByName "DivideByZero") (GetCurrentProgram) "thisistehpasswordtocrashtehprogram")
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11:55:10 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: Sudoku can't be Turing-complete because it is finite.
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15:47:41 <ehird`> <EXTREMELY obscure badtum-tish that 3 people in the whole world have a hope of getting>
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18:12:07 <Tritonio> does anybody use gutsy gibbon?
18:13:42 <pikhq> Certaintly *someone* does. . .
18:15:54 <Tritonio> i mean here... i have a little crazy stupid problem with the windows list applet...
18:27:01 <bsmntbombdood> pikhq: there's barely a dusting on the ground here ;(
18:27:15 <pikhq> I'd guess somewhere between 1/4" to 1/2".
18:27:48 <pikhq> Well, the Steelers game ought to be interesting, then.
18:28:06 <pikhq> Steelers @ Broncos, 6:15PM today.
18:29:17 <ehird`> playing around with stack-based languages is dangerous to the mind... i'm actually considering factor for my next project
18:29:40 <pikhq> Playing around with obfuscating C is pretty dangerous to the mind, as well. . .
18:30:01 <ehird`> you consider obfuscated C for your next project?
18:30:36 <pikhq> I'm in high school. Coding's just a massive game ATM. ;)
18:30:53 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/bubble.c And my, what a fun one.
18:30:59 <ehird`> haha wow, imagine an online game based on coding
18:31:47 <ehird`> gosh, what a coincidence
18:31:59 <ehird`> pikhq: now do quicksort
18:33:51 <ehird`> keep lines to 72 characters, and keep it 4 lines or less, so it fits into a sig
18:34:07 <ehird`> extra points for being gcc-only and requiring crazy compiler flags
18:34:21 <ehird`> (you could probably squeeze a lot of the program into flags, knowing gcc...)
18:34:25 * pikhq takes a look at his sane quicksort implementation
18:34:34 <pikhq> I always assume GCC. . .
18:34:47 <pikhq> foo?({goto g;}):({goto h;}) is so much fun. ;)
18:34:49 <ehird`> hmm, if you specify gcc flags though you either need to have it 3 lines so you can fit gcc flags on the last line, or be able to fit a comment into a 4-line block
18:35:32 <ehird`> but - if you can fit a non-recursing quicksort, with the compiler flags (if any) needed to compile it included, in 4 lines or less where a line is 72 characters, then i am amazed
18:35:37 <ehird`> i don't think it's possible :P
18:35:57 <pikhq> Obviously, I'll need to choose a really, really simple pivot algorithm. . .
18:36:12 <pikhq> This could be trickier than I though.
18:36:27 <ehird`> the more flags are required the more fake-points you get :P
18:36:48 <pikhq> I don't think it's possible, with the non-recursing requirement.
18:36:57 <ehird`> if the flags specified require a certain shell to work properly, you get infinity points
18:37:12 <ehird`> at 80 characters per line
18:37:17 <ehird`> that gives you some more space :P
18:37:30 <pikhq> It's the non-recursing requirement that makes it tricky, I fear.
18:37:56 <ehird`> ok, then just make it tail-recursive :P
18:38:02 <ehird`> (bam! just-as-hard requirement substituted!)
18:42:01 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: that's a corewars-alike right?
18:42:07 <ehird`> that isn't really what i was thining :P
18:42:36 <ehird`> which would be hilarious
18:42:42 <ehird`> "collect the magic gem of printf!"
18:42:46 <pikhq> I'll just do an obfuscated quine.
18:43:20 <ehird`> but then 72 characters and 4 lines restriction comes back in
18:43:57 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: putting them in ~/.sig, obviously
18:45:29 <ehird`> pikhq: you are of course allowed to use bad practices like old-style definitions
18:45:39 <ehird`> func(a1,a2) instead of int func(int a1, int a2)
18:46:37 <RodgerTheGreat> bonus points for anything involving comparisons or complex math performed directly upon pointers
18:46:44 <oklopol> it'd be awesome if there'd be a game where each level is a shell, and you need to kinda find out what you can do in it and hack your way into whatever the point of the current level is
18:47:09 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: bitwise operations on pointers for mega points
18:47:24 <oklopol> or the goal could always be to crash the system :P
18:47:26 <ehird`> oklopol: there are a few iirc
18:47:38 <ehird`> oklopol: uplink is only tangentally related to that but there are games basically totally like that
18:47:43 <ehird`> maybe not as flexible as you'd like though
18:47:54 <pikhq> ehird`: Of course.
18:48:33 <oklopol> ehird`: do you know a name?
18:48:42 <pikhq> q(s)char*s;{ anyone?
18:48:53 <ehird`> pikhq: pff you can get that shorter
18:49:00 <ehird`> why not make it operate on ints?
18:49:17 <pikhq> Then I have to convert the command-line argument to ints.
18:49:22 <pikhq> Which takes space.
18:49:30 <ehird`> oh, i didn't say you had to do command-line arguments
18:49:32 <pikhq> . . . Or I can just cast it.
18:49:49 <ehird`> well, i guess casting is bigger, though
18:49:50 <pikhq> For more WTF-ness. :)
18:50:01 <pikhq> *Implicit* casting. :D
18:50:18 <ehird`> no need to specify the type of c, it's default int :-)
18:50:36 <ehird`> i'm not sure the final ; is vital there
18:50:43 <ehird`> since the literal syntax for arrays/structs
18:51:34 <oklopol> hmph, ehird` is such a fun-ruiner
18:51:38 <ehird`> it'd be extra-funny if you could compact it to three lines without either " or ' (one but not both)
18:51:49 <ehird`> then you could put the compiling command completely in the sig :D
18:52:02 <ehird`> (well, 3 and a half lines, really, since you have the rest of the first one)
18:52:11 <ehird`> that would be really hard though
19:11:10 <pikhq> I've almost succeded.
19:11:15 <pikhq> Somewhre, I have a segfault.
19:11:59 <pikhq> It's fairly amusing to see what indent makes of it, though.
19:12:38 <ehird`> (the indent-ed version that is)
19:12:57 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/quick.c
19:13:31 <ehird`> int *\n<lots of space>s;
19:13:35 <ehird`> that makes no effing sense :D
19:13:40 <ehird`> then again we all know indent is retarded
19:13:55 <ehird`> whoa, uh, you're calling strlen on s
19:14:04 <ehird`> why don't you take length as an extra perameter
19:14:25 <ehird`> g[n], l[n], p = (n / 2)...
19:14:38 <ehird`> and, it's just two extra chars in the definition
19:14:44 <ehird`> since you don't have to specify the type sa int
19:15:01 <ehird`> and q(1[v],strlen(1[v])) is still pretty short
19:15:08 <ehird`> overall, it'd be much shorter and much less readable :D
19:16:29 <pikhq> I forgot one thing. . .
19:16:45 <pikhq> (BTW, the char *v instead of char**v was the segfault's cause)
19:17:01 <ehird`> puts(q(1[v],strlen(1[v]))
19:17:07 <ehird`> you get a newline free, too
19:17:42 <pikhq> . . . And now it segfaults.
19:17:56 <ehird`> (alternatively, show me the new code)
19:18:03 <pikhq> I only added puts.
19:18:05 <ehird`> what type does q return
19:18:23 <ehird`> no i mean what does it return in practice
19:18:24 <pikhq> I need to do a memcpy. XD
19:18:46 <pikhq> Or output in q itself.
19:19:02 <ehird`> cause then q wouldn't qsort
19:20:01 <pikhq> And a nice little memory leak. ;)
19:20:14 <ehird`> this does do ascii-sorting for commandline args right? like qsort adb -> abd
19:21:15 <ehird`> how big is it with 72 char lines? :)
19:21:24 <pikhq> It's *still* segfaulting.
19:21:35 <ehird`> show me the current code
19:21:39 <pikhq> strdup(s) would *surely* copy s. . .
19:21:48 <ehird`> i might be able to help
19:22:21 <ehird`> indented or normal? ;)
19:22:39 <pikhq> It's still weird, but it's easier to edit.
19:23:00 <ehird`> you're wasting space trying to be clever
19:23:11 <ehird`> well, isn't that pretty silly? :P
19:23:13 <pikhq> If I don't fit the space bounds, I'll get rid of that.
19:23:22 <ehird`> you get extra points for smaller code ;p
19:23:57 <ehird`> isn't that equiv. to x=i=j=0?
19:24:24 <ehird`> sheesh, this isn't obfuscation, it's golf :P
19:24:58 <pikhq> x=(i=(x=(j=0))); or x=0,i=x,j=(i^=i);?
19:25:42 <pikhq> My version, by my count, is the same length. . .
19:26:16 <ehird`> and you don't need the prens
19:26:53 <pikhq> x=i=j=0; doesn't compile.
19:27:11 <pikhq> And the parens wouldn't help.
19:27:14 <ehird`> i'm pretty sure it does
19:27:55 <ehird`> aern't ints 0 by default?
19:27:59 <ehird`> i mean, its unportable
19:28:10 <pikhq> In a function, no.
19:28:14 <ehird`> give it a try, you could reduce it to: x,i,j
19:28:17 <ehird`> i'm pretty sure they are
19:28:21 <ehird`> at least with default gcc
19:28:40 <pikhq> Believe me, they're not 0.
19:28:54 <pikhq> If they're declared *outside* a function, they are, though. . .
19:30:57 <pikhq> Now, do you know how that segfaults?
19:31:08 <ehird`> nope but i will in a few minutes
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19:42:03 <ehird`> when i say a few minutes
19:42:33 <ehird`> pikhq: well how about this
19:42:43 <ehird`> all the other code is, uh, not executed.
19:43:04 <pikhq> Shit. You're right.
19:45:37 <ehird`> http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/otcc/ ok, this is awesome :-)
19:45:52 <ehird`> i now have an urge to write a small c compiler not obfuscated but compact
19:46:07 <pikhq> Which means there is *still* a segfault. :(
19:46:20 <ehird`> pikhq: use gdb damnit!!
19:49:00 <ehird`> i don't have a c compiler on this system (stuck on windows atm)
19:49:06 <pikhq> It calls q, then gets to "1[s] ? ({return s;}):0;". . .
19:49:16 <ehird`> that's the first statement in q
19:49:31 <pikhq> I changed that statement so that it doesn't always return.
19:49:33 <ehird`> of course 1[s] is true
19:49:47 <ehird`> so q is just returning your input
19:49:55 <pikhq> Dammit. Need !1[s], don't I. XD
19:50:14 <ehird`> why are you doing that
19:50:32 <ehird`> i mean... what's the point?
19:50:33 <pikhq> That's a good question.
19:50:52 <ehird`> s[1] will just segfault, mostly
19:50:56 <ehird`> why? because it's int*
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19:51:15 <ehird`> so, just check length for 0
19:51:26 <pikhq> I want it to return when n>=1, not when s[1]==NULL.
19:51:49 <ehird`> what is n? sorry, i have not analyzed the code in depth
19:52:19 <pikhq> n is the length of the array. . .
19:52:27 <pikhq> Or, at least, should be.
19:52:39 <ehird`> "so just check length for 0"
19:54:28 <pikhq> Shouldn't x[s] ? test for NULL?
19:54:49 <ehird`> i thought length would be 0 on empty string
19:56:40 <pikhq> I think the bit about int*s rather than char*s is causing *this*. . .
19:57:33 <pikhq> And now I started something *completely different* into a segfault.
19:57:50 <pikhq> 4 puts (q (strlen(v[1]),1[v]));
19:58:03 <pikhq> That line, before q gets called, is causing a segfault.
19:59:08 <pikhq> And now my recursion is done wrong.
20:02:00 <pikhq> q(3, "c") gets called.
20:02:09 <ehird`> do you subtract from length each recurse?
20:02:23 <pikhq> I do strlen with recurse.
20:02:31 <ehird`> right, well don't i think
20:02:33 <ehird`> just subtract manually
20:02:42 <ehird`> (gcc 3.4.4 good enough to compile this? I assume so :P)
20:06:52 <pikhq> Now to figure out how q(3,"cba") calls q(1,"\0x01") and q(1,"c"). . .
20:07:49 <pikhq> Although it's easy to see how it segfaults.
20:08:10 <pikhq> That first line's return s;? Yeah, s gets freed in that return. ;)
20:08:39 * ehird` presses Next >, hopes cygwin server doesn't suck
20:08:42 <pikhq> Now, I've just got a fucked up quicksort.
20:09:04 <pikhq> (fucked up, as in "returns 'c\0x01' for 'cba'")
20:09:11 * ehird` is installing cygwin on this machine out of frustration
20:09:17 <ehird`> i'll compile and debug your code soon, pikhq ;)
20:09:32 <ehird`> (right after laughing at xeyes working on windows)
20:10:12 <pikhq> Latest version uploaded.
20:10:40 * ehird` wonders how big an x11 binary is
20:10:55 <ehird`> thank god i'm getting rxvt-unicode though
20:10:59 <ehird`> i am getting tired of cmd
20:12:27 <ehird`> cygwin 30%, not to obad
20:22:24 * pikhq thumbtwiddles, refusing to work on it for a while
20:22:46 <ehird`> i'll be more help when cygwin installs
20:26:25 <ehird`> I closed it by mistake...
20:26:35 <ehird`> and lost all the package selections :'(
20:28:16 * ehird` goes through the whole list again
20:28:20 <ehird`> thankfully! it doesn't have to redownload.
20:28:24 <ehird`> it saves all the files it's downloaded.
20:28:28 <ehird`> but... i have to remember WHAT i wanted..
20:29:05 <oerjan> i guess that's a good rule in general: always remember what you want
20:29:17 * ehird` hunts down where cygwin1.dll was
20:29:24 <ehird`> it crapped out on that at some point too
20:30:59 <ehird`> cmd tab completion - and cygwin setup - finds c:\windows\system32\cygwin1.dll
20:33:07 <ehird`> it isn't in explorer's list or `dir`
20:33:13 <ehird`> yet setup.exe sees it, and so does notepad
20:33:17 <ehird`> and del claims Could Not Find
20:33:22 <ehird`> lolololololololololol.
20:36:04 <oerjan> wild guess: maybe it's a hidden file?
20:36:22 <ehird`> del removes hidden files and i have hidden files to show in explorer
20:43:00 <ehird`> now to remember which packages i did
20:43:07 <ehird`> pikhq: soon, soon, i'll help ;)
20:44:02 <ehird`> i wish cygwin would look BEFORE installing all that crap though
20:53:37 <ehird`> on to post-install, pikhq
20:53:46 <ehird`> i shall be gcc&gdb-helpering you very soon :P
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20:54:41 <ehird`> that's not the point, i mean just cygwin :P
20:54:55 * ehird` starts rxvt-unicode, hopes
20:55:45 <ehird`> gcc (GCC) 3.4.4 (cygming special, gdc 0.12, using dmd 0.125)
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20:58:41 <pikhq> Any reason for Cygwin having GDC?
21:00:52 <ehird`> because it has software
21:01:56 * ehird` gets himself some of dat urxvt runnin'
21:02:21 <oklopol> YOU ARE TALKING :OOOOOOOOO
21:08:37 <ehird`> its frozen up the start menu
21:09:53 <ehird`> time to make an urxvt shortcut
21:19:29 <lament> i'm currently suffering without it
21:19:56 * ehird` asks in #cygwin how to make the shortcut
21:28:40 <pikhq> But she's an *RMS* groupie.
21:28:44 <pikhq> You sure you want that?
21:29:29 <ehird`> you know what? i hate you
21:29:36 <pikhq> oerjan: Reenacting xkcd. ;)
21:29:47 <ehird`> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Portrait_-_Denmark_DTU_2007-3-31.jpg sexy rms!
21:31:14 <ehird`> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/Wikimania_stallman_keynote2.jpg
21:32:41 <pikhq> If he cut his hair & bear, he'd probably lose a good 20 pounds. :p
21:33:19 <ehird`> this is all academic, rms is a crazy hobo and would kill you for even suggesting that he is not perfect
21:33:48 <bsmntbombdood> because cutting his hair and beard would make him not rms
21:34:01 <ehird`> i think that would be a good thing
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21:43:34 <pikhq> ehird`: Any ideas?
21:44:09 <ehird`> pikhq: asking in #cygwin
21:48:09 <ehird`> pikhq: okies here goes
21:48:24 <ehird`> sorry for, heh, taking 2 hours
21:49:28 <ehird`> your problem seems to be
21:49:37 <ehird`> is that q has a type of int, by default
21:49:40 <ehird`> so, when it returns the string
21:49:43 <ehird`> it returns (int)string
21:49:49 <ehird`> and then puts(an_int) is called
21:49:57 <ehird`> gcc just told me this when i compiled it.
21:51:36 <ehird`> n>2?0: ({return strdup(s);}); does not do what you think it does
21:51:43 <ehird`> you want: (n>2)?0: ({return strdup(s);});
21:52:02 <ehird`> n > (2 ? 0 : NEVER EXECUTED)
21:52:30 <ehird`> at least, i think so, pikhq
21:53:10 <ehird`> ok, you are doing something wrong with l and g
21:53:18 <ehird`> since they become things like "0K\020ac^\200|{j\020@"
21:53:27 <ehird`> pikhq: i doubt any of that is helpful, but :)
22:00:00 <pikhq> I know something is wrong with l and g; that much is obvious. :p
22:05:56 <ehird`> x[s] is just checking the first character isn't 0, so i can safely assume the first block is being executed... let me see...
22:06:13 <ehird`> p is half-way through the string, the pivot...
22:06:33 <ehird`> if we are earlier than the pivot in the string, ...
22:06:38 <ehird`> ok, that's not fucking up obviously :P
22:06:57 <ehird`> if this is less than the pivot
22:07:09 <pikhq> BTW, that q returns an int doesn't matter. . . The call to puts makes it basically puts((char*)(int)(char*)"foo");. ;)'
22:07:10 <ehird`> pikhq: you mean: if x[s] <= p
22:07:42 <ehird`> i'll make that change in my copy so You Don't Have To
22:07:51 <pikhq> That makes it output ac instead of abc. ;)
22:08:08 <ehird`> right, i think it's because of the \0 at the end of the strings
22:08:15 <ehird`> strip it somehow, so that n is actually the length of s
22:09:04 <ehird`> you aren't clearing out g[n] and l[n] to 0.
22:09:09 <ehird`> you should zero them out
22:09:16 <ehird`> memzero if i am not mistaken
22:10:12 <pikhq> *That* is a signifigant issue.
22:10:24 <pikhq> Heisenbugs will abound because of that mistake. . .
22:10:26 <ehird`> which? the \0 on the string or the non-zeroing-out g and l
22:10:43 <pikhq> Non-zeroing-out g and l.
22:11:08 <ehird`> upload a new version its a major enough change after that =)
22:11:32 <pikhq> Now, what's a good esoteric way to add in bzero?
22:11:53 <ehird`> just do memzero(ptr, size)
22:12:00 <pikhq> bzero, not memzero.
22:12:09 <pikhq> I want it esotericy, though.
22:12:38 <ehird`> bzero(bzero(g,n)&&l,n)
22:13:05 <ehird`> why not just memset(ptr,0,n)
22:13:51 <pikhq> Deprecated is even more cause for it. ;)
22:14:05 <ehird`> oh come on, esoterica yes but we don't want to make this break in the future ;)
22:14:25 <pikhq> My function definitions are already depricated.
22:15:08 <pikhq> BTW, void value not ignored as it should be for your suggestion. ;)
22:15:31 <ehird`> bzero((bzero(g,n)&&l)||l,n)
22:15:44 <ehird`> you could probably use & and |
22:15:46 <pikhq> bzero returns void.
22:15:56 <ehird`> fit some bitwise pointer arithmetic in there
22:16:31 <pikhq> Memset, however, returns void*. ;)
22:17:31 <pikhq> I'll use both and some bitwise stuff. ;)
22:17:45 <ehird`> (um, does this still fit in 4 72-character lines?)
22:18:29 <ehird`> i'll compress the current version to see
22:19:22 <pikhq> Still a Heisenbug, though. . .
22:19:31 <pikhq> cba, sorted, is apparently bac.
22:19:46 <pikhq> And acb is a segfault.
22:19:58 <pikhq> Uploaded the new one, though.
22:20:12 <ehird`> let me tell you something
22:20:16 <ehird`> run in gdb and step over
22:20:24 <ehird`> when a nested q call is made
22:20:31 <ehird`> you will see that, the strings have loads of garbage
22:21:34 <ehird`> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1193001671.html
22:21:39 <ehird`> please ignore the automatic indesntation...
22:21:47 <pikhq> I'm getting just q(1, "c") and q(2, "ba") called.
22:22:18 <pikhq> s/(n>2)/(n>1)/. . .
22:22:19 <ehird`> when yu copy to the two arrays
22:22:25 <ehird`> you don't copy the whole thing
22:22:54 <pikhq> The behavior you're trying to explain does not *exist* here. . .
22:23:08 <ehird`> solutions: 1. pass i and j instead of a strlen
22:23:19 <pikhq> ./a.out cba sorts right.
22:23:34 <pikhq> Everything else. . . Segfaults.
22:24:26 <ehird`> it sorts to acb though
22:24:38 <pikhq> I'm getting infinite recursions.
22:24:57 <pikhq> Which is causing the segfault.
22:26:00 <pikhq> Although I must salute my system for going through at least 25473 recursions.
22:26:55 <pikhq> Still have infinite recursions.
22:27:01 <pikhq> (n>1)?0: ({return strdup(s);});
22:27:10 <pikhq> This is the offending line, I fear.
22:27:14 <ehird`> pikhq: are you sure that actually returns
22:27:19 <ehird`> i think it'll only return from the {} block
22:27:47 <pikhq> Otherwise, it goes on.
22:27:58 <pikhq> See what happens with q(2, "ab"). . .
22:28:02 <ehird`> ok, let's just go through this mechanically:
22:28:09 <ehird`> let's use "hello" as arguments
22:28:20 <ehird`> now, lots of stuff goes okay, then we recurse into n=1,s="o"
22:28:30 <ehird`> this goes fine and returns
22:28:34 <ehird`> now, we get into n=4 s="hell"
22:28:46 <pikhq> The pivot is l again.
22:28:59 <pikhq> Thus, we get to n=4, s="hell".
22:29:32 <ehird`> then we get to... n=4 s="hell\002"
22:29:43 <pikhq> Just n=4 s="hell" over here.
22:29:54 <ehird`> maybe it's because i modified my version
22:30:01 <pikhq> Which obviously loops forever.
22:30:44 <ehird`> i'll try and write a better pivot
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22:31:55 <ehird`> how about we just make it choose a random pivot :-)
22:33:32 <pikhq> q (n=3, s=0x7ffff7ac6580 "abc��\177") at quick.c:9
22:33:56 <ehird`> yeah i think we have a problem here
22:34:16 <ehird`> hey, how about you ask #c? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH-ehm.
22:34:28 <ehird`> (also known as the least helpful channel on freenode)
22:34:52 <ehird`> i wonder if poppavic still goes there, he had a really good continuous stream of nonsense generator installed in his brain
22:35:35 <pikhq> How's about p = (rand()%n)[s] instead of p=rand(). :p
22:35:43 <ehird`> ooh, interesting idea ;)
22:35:49 <ehird`> doesn't rand() return, uh, a float?
22:36:07 <pikhq> It returns an int from 0 to MAXINT.
22:36:30 <pikhq> There should be a better pivot selection, though.
22:36:42 <ehird`> this new version with random pivot
22:37:03 <pikhq> Maybe you've got other changes?
22:37:11 <ehird`> also it sorts hello to hello
22:37:19 <pikhq> New version uploaded.
22:37:24 <ehird`> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1193002622.html mine
22:37:32 <pikhq> It segfaults on hello, though.
22:37:58 <jix> does it sort bytes?
22:38:23 <pikhq> It sorts cbaefgh to, alternately, abcefgh, segfault, and abce�fg.
22:38:42 <ehird`> i just tried it three times
22:38:57 <pikhq> You need (n>1), not (n>2).
22:39:02 <ehird`> so you're doing things with the pivot wrong
22:39:05 <ehird`> i just downloaded your version
22:39:37 <ehird`> fix what you're doing with the pivot :P
22:39:42 <ehird`> because ANY pivot should work
22:40:13 <pikhq> *Should*, not is. ;)
22:40:39 <ehird`> i'm going to write CRAZYSORT!
22:40:46 <ehird`> which is my crazy sort algorithm which is like a fucked up quicksort
22:42:16 <pikhq> I've discovered that, somehow, having two elements equal to each other *guarantees* a segfault.
22:43:15 <pikhq> And it's still heisenning.
22:44:42 <bsmntbombdood> The Missed Symphony - Classical Mushroom - Infected Mushroom
22:51:44 * pikhq still doesn't see *what* is fucked up here
22:53:48 <ehird`> tee hee my algorithm is really funny
22:54:05 <ehird`> it's basically quicksort, except the pivot is the first element, and i only sort the right list
22:55:31 <ehird`> http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/otcc/
22:55:38 <ehird`> i might write a compiler like that
22:55:51 <ehird`> compiles just a small enough subset of c to do basic stuff and compile itself
22:56:00 <pikhq> It may help to have a pivot that's *in the list*.
22:56:44 <pikhq> That doesn't explain the infinite recursion of sorting "ab", though.
22:58:05 <pikhq> Sure, it select b as the pivot. . .
22:58:12 <ehird`> hmm, actually a c compiler should actually be TRIVIAL to write...
22:58:16 <ehird`> a simple, old-style one
22:58:26 <ehird`> especially the parsing, you could write a very simple parser by hand
22:59:06 <ehird`> i mean, what does it take to parse: NAME "(" [NAME ","...] ")" VARS BLOCK?
22:59:28 <ehird`> i'd bet the parser for functions would just be a few lines, and only need to call the name, maybe namelist, declarations and the block parser
22:59:37 <ehird`> plus it isn't exactly hard to compile...
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23:02:49 <pikhq> I suspect that my quicksort implementation has something fundamentally wrong.
23:03:22 <ehird`> hmm, otcc, unobfuscated, with all comments and whitespace, is just 632 lines
23:03:26 <ehird`> and it compiles itself
23:03:41 <pikhq> Otcc, unobfuscated, is what we call "tcc".
23:03:57 <pikhq> By the same guy. . .
23:04:04 <ehird`> http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/otcc/
23:04:09 <ehird`> he officially provides non-obfuscated versions
23:04:09 <pikhq> And from the same code base. . .
23:04:12 <ehird`> not just a link to tcc
23:04:15 <ehird`> they're different, ok?!
23:04:25 <ehird`> otcc is a lot simpler and only compiles basic code
23:04:28 <pikhq> Although tcc has had many features added since he started on tcc and otcc.
23:04:40 <ehird`> exactly, they're practically seperate now
23:05:11 <ehird`> it's way different from tcc
23:05:16 <ehird`> and much easier to read for me
23:05:20 <ehird`> and also very very VERY tiny
23:09:37 <jix> i did a program that sorts the byte of argv[1] in 144 bytes
23:10:26 <jix> it runs in linear time
23:10:34 <ehird`> some sort of trick, then? ;)
23:10:56 <jix> bucket sort
23:11:08 <jix> the number of different items that can be sorted is finite
23:11:13 <jix> so it can be done in linear time
23:11:23 <jix> and as the number is small it can be done very fast in linear time
23:11:32 <jix> main(c,v)unsigned char**v;{unsigned int q[256],x=0;++v;while(255&++x)x[q]=0;while(**v)++q[*(*v)++];while(255&--x)while(q[x]--)*--*v=x;puts(*v);}
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23:16:19 <jix> how it works should be obvious from the source
23:17:26 <jix> uh the ints don't have to be unsigned
23:17:40 <jix> main(c,v)unsigned char**v;{int q[256],x=0;++v;while(255&++x)x[q]=0;while(**v)++q[*(*v)++];while(255&--x)while(q[x]--)*--*v=x;puts(*v);}
23:22:33 <ehird`> pikhq: how is it doing?
23:22:42 <ehird`> sum(list)/length(list)
23:22:50 <ehird`> probably too long to run btu eh
23:23:24 <pikhq> strcat() is a bad choice for combining the two strings. . .
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23:34:25 <ehird`> someone propose an esoteric and silly sorting algorithm idea so i can implement it :P
23:40:55 <ehird`> stooge sort is a joke sort
23:41:05 <ehird`> bubble sort really sucks anyway :P
23:41:24 <bsmntbombdood> the knuth one i'm thinking of has factorial time complexity
23:41:55 <bsmntbombdood> it rearanges the array randomly untill it's sorted
23:45:46 <bsmntbombdood> "Satanic music, jazz, and swing, result from marijuana use."
23:46:19 <ehird`> haha where's that from
23:46:24 <ehird`> (... it is satirical right?)
23:47:15 <bsmntbombdood> direct quote from the commisioner of the burea of narcotics
23:48:40 <ehird`> "...the primary reason to outlaw marijuana is its effect on the degenerate races."
23:49:10 <ehird`> he appears to mention nothing about the obviously superior whites using ti :P
23:50:57 <ehird`> however that heartbone.com site is kind of kooky, it has a link on the home page: Theory on the fundamental nature of the physical universe, which links to a page with many animated "UNDER CONSTRUCTION" gifs and the title "HeartBone Physical Universe Theory Page"
23:51:49 <ehird`> "THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE IS COMPOSED OF 2 PARTS POT AND ONE PART WHOOOAAA DUDE" -- leaked copy of the theory
23:56:09 <ehird`> haha i'm throwing random shuffling code together and calling it a sorting algorithm
23:56:26 <ehird`> my favourite so far is BONOSORT!
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23:57:37 <ehird`> get an output list and an appended list. reverse the list. for every index i in the list, if i is the last element in the list, skip this. otherwise, if the element is greater than the next element of the list and the next index in the list is not in appended, append the next element to the result and append the next index to appended. then: if i is not in appended, append the element to the result
23:57:43 <ehird`> it produces... something that isn't sorted :D
00:01:09 <pikhq> for(int i=0;i!=size;i++)if(array[i] > array[i+1])strfry(array);
00:01:38 <ehird`> i love strfry and memfrob
00:02:55 <ehird`> hee, i really want to write that silly c compiler
00:03:37 <ehird`> maybe even some preprocessor stuff for vague inter-compatibility
00:03:50 <ehird`> maybe generate ELF or Mach-O, or if I'm feeling crazy PE
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05:25:02 <RodgerTheGreat> bsmntbombdood: one day, you will beat your father at risk, and you shall truly be a man
05:25:39 <RodgerTheGreat> the only two board games I still love to play are Monopoly and Risk, which are unfortunately the games that everyone seems to get pissed about losing
05:25:57 <pikhq> I'd add chess to that list.
05:27:26 <RodgerTheGreat> I enjoy chess, but I find that Risk and Monopoly, by adding a random element yet still relying heavily on strategy, hit the "sweet spot" of strategic gaming better. Good planning and judgments are rewarded, but if you're screwed you can always make a long-shot last stand
05:27:57 <RodgerTheGreat> plus, you have the whole diplomacy metagame to work with that chess completely lacks
05:31:01 <RodgerTheGreat> ok, so different topic- tell me what you guys think of this as a premise for a video game:
05:32:08 <oklopol> before you say anything: i love it
05:32:36 <RodgerTheGreat> A cabal of meteorologists have developed technology capable of massively altering and controlling the world's weather patterns.
05:33:48 <RodgerTheGreat> World governments are plunged into chaos as hurricanes, thunderstorms, volcanic eruptions and earthquakes shatter cities and infrastructure.
05:35:57 <RodgerTheGreat> The only hope for humanity's freedom lies in an elite army-for-hire of some of brilliant engineers and scientists with the technology and manufacturing capabilities to fight back.
05:37:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
05:50:12 <immibis> of some of the world's most?
05:50:29 <immibis> i mean, of some of the world's most brilliant?
05:51:32 * immibis doesn't know what you're supposed to do in that game anyway as RodgerTheGreat never mentioned it.
05:52:06 * immibis doesn't have an opinion in that case.
05:52:16 -!- g4lt-mordant has changed nick to galt-notreg.
05:52:21 <RodgerTheGreat> you'd likely play as a civil engineer, taking on the forces of the Weathermen on a battlefield.
05:52:52 <immibis> why would a cabal of meteorologists want to destroy cities?
05:53:21 <RodgerTheGreat> A cabal is a number of persons united in some close design, usually to promote their private views and interests in a church, state, or other community by intrigue.
05:53:24 -!- galt-notreg has changed nick to galt-sb100.
05:54:35 <RodgerTheGreat> They're attempting to conquer the world as revenge for what they perceive as being trivialized by both the public and the scientific community (cartoonish, yes, but the game is intentionally a bit tongue-in-cheek)
05:55:45 <immibis> i suppose they don't destroy other meteorologists' houses then?
05:56:09 -!- galt-sb100 has changed nick to g4lt.
05:56:33 <RodgerTheGreat> we'll assume that the subset of meteorologists comprising said cabal live in secure bases and residences.
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05:57:13 <immibis> and other meteorologists not belonging to that cabal?
05:59:32 <bsmntbombdood> and you should immitate http://durota.ru/games/2/2420/play.html11
06:02:53 <RodgerTheGreat> immibis: my main question is, do you find the overall idea at all intriguing? Would you be interested to know how a story like that played out?
06:03:54 * immibis doesn't know. immibis would be if it were to happen in real life, to him, of course.
06:04:30 <RodgerTheGreat> alright, I'll chalk that one up as "intriguing premise. develop further."
06:07:25 <immibis> ---> is <--- anyone else here?
06:07:44 <immibis> [17:32] <oklopol> before you say anything: i love it
06:07:51 <RodgerTheGreat> I was enumerating possibilities in addition to providing summonses
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07:09:28 <immibis> IRP --language=VB6 CrashProgram Type:=DivideByZero, OutputErrorMessage:=True, ProgramToCrash:=GetCurrentProgram()
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07:56:47 * immibis un-shoots himself as he realises lament forgot to say "immibis: IRP die"
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08:11:20 <immibis> IRP --target=#esoteric --exclude-target=lament Kill lament.
08:11:53 <immibis> IRP --one-of-the-good-things-about-this-irp-interpreter=you-can-make-up-new-command-line-options
08:20:06 <immibis> IRP --target=lament die, but before you do, say IRP --target=immibis kill yourself
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08:44:56 <immibis> IRP --target=oerjan --syntax=scheme-like --library irp-std -- (CrashProgram (GetCrashTypeFromList (GetCrashList "100 Ways to Crash a Program") "Division by zero") (GetThisProgram))
08:48:31 <immibis> IRP --target=#esoteric --syntax=c -- MakeUserStop("immibis",irp_action);MakeUserNotDoAgain("immibis",irp_action);
08:59:10 <oerjan> main = print . cycle $ "Why not use a more compact language!\n"
08:59:31 <oerjan> main = putStr . cycle $ "Why not use a more compact language!\n"
09:00:20 <immibis> IRP --target=oerjan -- don't forget to put IRP in front of it and the syntax rules.
09:00:54 <oerjan> but that destroys the whole point of a compact language!
09:01:06 <immibis> for example IRP --syntax=scheme-like --varient=festival-tts -- (SayText "Hello World")
09:02:18 <oerjan> IRP -timmibis -shaskell -e'putStrLn "Ha!"'
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10:03:53 <Fa1r> @wwwwwwww$ ... <- what would you do?
11:46:24 <ttm> Does anyone have a good use for 16 megs of Rule 30 automaton output?
11:46:33 <ttm> Took three weeks to compute.
11:46:36 <ttm> And now I don't know what to do with it.
11:47:18 <ttm> I suppose I should put it through empirical tests for randomness. But I keep putting it off.
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18:31:34 <ehird`> esoteric idea: write C, using qwerty, but with your keyboard layout on dvorak
18:39:36 <ehird`> a C coder who uses qwerty, sets the layout as dvorak in their os
18:39:41 <ehird`> then codes C in their editor as usual
18:39:48 <ehird`> result = obfuscated garbage, to most people
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18:56:28 <GregorR> Permutation = bad cipher :P
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00:26:48 <pikhq> I promote obfuscated C via the bifid cipher.
00:27:02 <pikhq> Although it *does* suffer from a known plaintext. . .
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02:19:34 <GregorR> Anybody have some .smv files for a portable music player they'd be willing to give me? (I'm hacking up a converter for GNU/Linux)
02:23:52 <bsmntbombdood> anyone able to run windows executables and has a lot of bandwidth and hard drive space and smarts?
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06:26:56 <StapleGun_> so u guys only tok bout esolangs here?
06:28:41 <GregorR> In principle, but really the conversation is just as often on something else esoteric.
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09:47:50 <StapleGun_> how long has esolangs.org been aorund for?
09:49:08 <oerjan> i don't know, i've been here a year
09:49:47 <oerjan> thought you were asking about the channel
09:51:14 <oerjan> the history of the main page goes back to April 2005
09:52:03 <oerjan> so does the brainfuck page
09:55:23 <oerjan> btw this is probably _the_ slowest period of day on this channel.
09:55:48 <oerjan> (saw your earlier question in the logs)
10:41:38 <StapleGun_> im working on an esoteric language as a learning experience, im trying to make the hello world example and ive confused myself
11:20:26 <StapleGun_> hmm, what time is this channel active?
11:22:31 <oerjan> mostly when the americans are awake, is my impression
11:23:41 <oerjan> you could take a look at the logs
11:26:12 <StapleGun_> hmm is it possible to join to a different server using chatzilla?
11:26:19 <oerjan> the red days are those with more activity
11:26:35 <StapleGun_> i cant seem to find the log, ive never used irc b4
11:26:37 <oerjan> don't know, not using it
11:26:48 <oerjan> http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric
11:26:59 <oerjan> it's listed in the channel topic
11:27:48 <StapleGun_> goes from dark blue to light blue to red?
11:30:52 <oerjan> mine is running on linux
11:31:45 <StapleGun_> u dont know wot game maker is by any chance do u?
11:32:04 <oerjan> "UNIX systems", says the webpage
11:33:08 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Maker
11:33:43 <StapleGun_> yea, id be a full time linux user if i could get game maker to run on linux ... that and company of heroes
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18:37:42 * SimonRC reads: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/tees/7057812.stm
18:38:00 <ehird1> looks like a torrent site? i've never heard of it
18:38:30 <ehird1> i'm not even sure oklopol is joking...
18:38:35 <ehird1> you can never be sure with him
18:39:12 <SimonRC> I really need to stop reading "British Phonographic Industry" as "British Pornographic Industry".
18:39:28 <SimonRC> and how is free music distributing "lucrative"?
18:39:51 <ehird1> british phornographic industry
18:58:04 <ehird1> I just had a crazy, crazy idea.
18:58:08 <ehird1> A Forth system in Brainfuck.
18:58:36 <ehird1> Actually, the memory is laid out perfect for forth stacks and dictionaries - you just have a slab of infinite memory (let's assume an infinite memory implementation) to do stuff with
18:58:44 <ehird1> And the execution model isn't hard... Hey, that could work.
19:00:37 <ehird1> bsmntbombdood: maybe if you said something more than uh? i could give you an answer
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19:39:45 <RodgerTheGreat> http://craphound.com/overclocked/Cory_Doctorow_-_Overclocked_-_When_Sysadmins_Ruled_the_Earth.html <- I thought this was a fantastic read
19:45:46 <RodgerTheGreat> I'd highly recommend it to anyone with half an hour or so to blow
19:47:30 <ehird1> RodgerTheGreat: any thoughts on a Forth written in brainfuck? :)
19:49:08 <ehird1> the memory layout is good for it, the core execution could be done with some minimal work
19:49:10 <RodgerTheGreat> sounds difficult, but possible. I'll bet we could benefit from using gregor's approach to building a stack in BF
19:49:13 <ehird1> and i think it shouldn't be too hard
19:49:21 <ehird1> RodgerTheGreat: well -- a forth system isn't hard
19:49:44 <RodgerTheGreat> I've built some stack-based languages myself- I'm familiar
19:49:48 * SimonRC has thought about Forth in BF too...
19:49:55 <ehird1> still, if you look at e.g. JonesForth
19:50:08 <ehird1> the core is basically some minimal assembly, then lots of memory pushing to define the core words
19:50:23 <SimonRC> though you would really want a faster way to access the "main memory"
19:50:26 <ehird1> then you define the rest in forth itself... so i think writing one in BF should be pretty easy
19:50:52 <ehird1> the problem with gregorr's stack mechanism, is that it requires double memory
19:52:15 <RodgerTheGreat> main thing is, for a good forthlike, you need multiple data structures: at least a stack, variable dictionary and either a dedicated linked-list dictionary for storing code or the ability to store those in your variable dictionary
19:52:46 <RodgerTheGreat> so we'd need to carve our BF tape into at least two pieces, which means we must place absolute limits on stack or dictionary size
19:52:52 <ehird1> RodgerTheGreat: variable dictionary? uh, no
19:52:56 <ehird1> variables are just memory locations
19:53:11 <ehird1> VARIABLE n -> : n <new memory location> ;
19:53:18 <ehird1> n @ -> <memory location> @
19:53:31 <ehird1> it just finds an unused memory location and defines a word that just returns it
19:53:36 <ehird1> s/return/pushes it to stack
19:53:54 <ehird1> that's what all the forth's i've used have done
19:54:20 <ehird1> well, it's a simple way to do it
19:54:34 <ehird1> the code dictionary is really just a stack
19:54:41 <ehird1> except, you can non-destructively pop
19:54:45 <ehird1> i.e. there's a "previous" pointer
19:54:53 <ehird1> a linked-list, then, i guess
19:54:59 <ehird1> except, it has "prev" instead of "next"
19:55:15 <ehird1> making a word is just making the entry then: prev = CURRENT, CURRENT = self
19:55:35 <ehird1> so, really, you will have this memory layout:
19:56:04 <ehird1> [stack of fixed size (you shouldn't let it grow big anyway...)][dictionary of finite, but expanding size][HERE BE DRAGONS]
19:56:19 <ehird1> (dragons = variables and other misc. memory, of course)
19:56:37 <ehird1> of course, the dictionary can tiptoe over the dragons when adding a new entry
19:59:21 <ehird1> RodgerTheGreat: you know i really think a forth in brainfuck could be tiny
19:59:31 <ehird1> i mean, it needs very little
19:59:50 <ehird1> without comments and whitespace (well, apart from 80col line breaks) i'd bet it could be pretty short... a few hundred lines?
20:00:17 <RodgerTheGreat> and I suppose the interesting thing is that most libraries you'd want are already written in more or less pure FORTH, so we could rapidly expand the language
20:00:40 <ehird1> things you won't find: graphics, networking
20:00:41 <RodgerTheGreat> we'd want to whip up a BF interpreter that can load/save states to make it less painful to work with
20:01:16 <ehird1> it's not its own tcp/ip stack, however
20:01:37 <ehird1> maybe first a plain BF implementation
20:01:43 <ehird1> then it could be hacked to work with one of the outside-layers
20:02:06 <ehird1> they'd act identical except the latter would have the neccessary words for doing stuff that isn't possible in pure BF
20:02:15 <Sgeo> PSOX == highlighted
20:02:34 <ehird1> Sgeo: PROTIP: if you have something on highlight, READ THE GODDAMN MESSAGE!
20:03:12 * Sgeo should work on PSOX at some point
20:06:05 <ehird1> RodgerTheGreat: what's your estimate for source size? ;) in instructions. i bet about 24000 instructions, minimum (300 lines at 80 characers(
20:08:10 <ehird1> maybe less, maybe more
20:14:42 <ehird1> RodgerTheGreat: actually maybe that's a bit overboard, less i'd say
20:23:57 <ehird1> anyone know a way to make a BF stack that doesn't require len*2 usage? RodgerTheGreat?
20:27:27 <oerjan> ehird1: probably you can replace 2 by something smaller by having only occasional gaps
20:27:56 <oerjan> i guess that will complicate the code however
20:28:18 <ehird1> i mean, ideally there should be some sort of sentinel value at the start and end, but then you can't access an arbitary element
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20:40:34 <ehird1> oerjan: at least i don't thinnk you can access arbitary elements with fixed sentinels
20:42:08 <oerjan> unless you shuffle everything
20:42:35 <ehird1> so i think a1b1c1...z0 is the best way, for now?
20:42:42 <ehird1> or rather: the only way, really
20:43:50 <oerjan> i'm not quite sure - since you are probably doing lots of copying even with that, perhaps shuffling everything _isn't_ that much worse
20:44:10 <ehird1> shuffling everything being what?
20:45:27 <oerjan> swapping the carry-along index with the cells, until you get to the desired point
20:45:39 <ehird1> i don't quite understand
20:46:12 <oerjan> let's say your stack is abcdefgh and you want to access element 3 from the end
20:47:05 <oerjan> abcdefgh3 -swap- abcdefg2h -swap- abcdef1gh -swap- abcde0fgh
20:47:32 <ehird1> that would mean stack access would be quite a lot of code, though, no?
20:47:35 <oerjan> you need some extra room to carry along the value, but only a _constant_ amount
20:48:16 <oerjan> perhaps, but you could make it a subroutine i think
20:49:26 <ehird1> i don't want to use pebble
20:49:43 <ehird1> nor indeed subroutines, i think it'd be pretty easy to write a forth without subroutines
20:51:06 <oerjan> actually, only the word that accesses _arbitrary_ stack needs to use this method
20:51:17 <oerjan> so it would be a subroutine anyhow
20:51:30 <ehird1> oerjan: all stack-manipulation words need to do it, and they shouldn't be forth words
20:51:42 <ehird1> oklopol: because i want to use BF, not pebble (i know pebble can compile to bf)
20:51:50 <oerjan> no, most stack-manipulation words only need to access the top few values
20:52:00 <oklopol> pebble is a very low-level thingie.
20:52:04 <ehird1> oklopol: i don't care!
20:52:18 <ehird1> how big should the stack be?
20:52:34 <ehird1> i mean, you shouldn't let the stack grow beyond that in forth anyway
20:53:01 <ehird1> [data stack of course]
20:53:15 <ehird1> oerjan: chuck moore agrees (although he is bat-shit insane)
20:54:11 <ehird1> for example, colorforth's stack is about that size
20:54:23 <ehird1> and, personally, the stack length has never grown >20 or so in my usage
20:54:27 <ehird1> 16 seems like a good size to me
20:54:42 <ehird1> also, i assume that i won't do floats, negative integers etc
20:54:51 <ehird1> so, we can use a standard 0-255, wrapping BF int
20:57:24 <ehird1> what BF interp/compilers does everyone here use?
20:57:29 <ehird1> i actually have no idea what the most commonly used are
21:08:37 <oklopol> but if you want something with good debugging... hmm..
21:08:44 <oklopol> that thingie with the blue leaf
21:08:53 <oklopol> i don't remember the name actually :P
21:09:05 <oklopol> i wonder if that was the good one
21:58:55 <ehird1> Damnit! I didn't think this bf interpreter through...
21:59:24 <ehird1> I was reading in code char-by-char/.
22:06:46 <oerjan> you mean reading and executing simultaneously?
22:12:01 <ehird1> execute(read character), basically
22:12:45 <ehird1> well, not really rewrite
22:12:46 <oerjan> not even saving the char? o_O
22:13:29 <ehird1> (i wouldn't even be writing a bf interp if i didn't want to add state saving/loading)
22:13:50 <ehird1> (basically: you can save the tape and code pointer to a file, then recall it again to resume your session)
22:14:06 <ehird1> (you initiate the saving by pressing ^Z - it handles SIGSUSP by asking for a filename)
22:14:17 <ehird1> (and then just "interp dump")
22:15:47 <ehird1> besides that it resizes the tape pretty well
22:15:57 <ehird1> then that-1 if it fails
22:16:04 <ehird1> all the way down to (current size)
22:19:06 <ehird1> oerjan, oklopol: what do you think is a reasonable default size for code?
22:19:15 <ehird1> (code is read into a variable sized array, i need to know a good starting point)
22:25:29 <oklopol> mwwwahahaha use pebble and make that easy to change
22:26:01 <bsmntbombdood> upgrading from sarge to lenny changed a bunch of fonts
22:38:25 <ehird1> my 138L, 2960C, 2.9K brainfuck interpreter is almost done (with sane bracket handling, i.e. very fast, scans at start with stack) ... then i have to do state_saving
22:39:07 <ehird1> (state saving isn't hard, i just need to save the tape{,size,ptr}, code{,size,length,ptr} and bracket-map{,size})
22:39:12 <ehird1> so... dump all the vars basically
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22:44:22 <oklopol> ehird1: brainfuck interpreter in what languagE?
22:44:37 <ehird1> i'm writing a Forth in this remember
22:45:00 <ehird1> it is very understandable c
22:45:29 <oklopol> we should all be speaking lojban
22:45:54 <ehird1> neutral attiduntal oh!
22:46:56 <ehird1> dereferencing type-punned pointer will break strict-aliasing rules
22:47:06 <ehird1> you are retarded and pedantic
22:47:19 <ehird1> i am allowed to play loose and fast with my pointers and their types
22:47:44 <ehird1> os x most of the time but i am stuck on windows right now. i am using the software i love by virtue of cygwin
22:48:55 <ehird1> a brainfuck interpreter that can dump and load states
22:49:08 <ehird1> i.e. you can end a session then resume it later, it just dumps the state to a file
22:49:11 <ehird1> it is also pretty fast
22:49:36 <ehird1> it's also only 137 lines
22:49:57 <StapleGun_> mines like 200 for this prototype im working
22:50:06 <StapleGun_> but i didnt comment and now im confused
22:50:48 <ehird1> mine has about 3 comments, none of which are particularly helpful
22:50:52 <ehird1> but it's really easy to understand, so
22:50:57 <ehird1> (whee, hello world hangs. what fun)
22:51:12 <StapleGun_> But I end up control+alt+deleting after a few seconds
22:51:15 <ehird1> what language is that?
22:51:52 <StapleGun_> and it bounces between the line start and finish
22:52:14 <ehird1> it's like the turtles in mario going through execution tokens, i guess
22:52:27 <StapleGun_> u can skip the next instruction with /
22:52:51 <StapleGun_> and best of all > means push, but means pop if going the othrt way lol
22:53:46 <oklopol> hmm... aren't brainfuck interpreters usually like 10 lines?
22:54:07 <StapleGun_> i wrote one in game maker that was well over 400
22:54:33 <oklopol> or the graphical interface?
22:54:40 <StapleGun_> ppl make some pretty sophisticated stuff
22:54:44 <ehird1> oklopol: yeah but mine scans all brackets before execution to put them in a table, intelligently resizes the tape, and other stuff
22:54:48 <StapleGun_> well it has drag and drop, but u can c style code now
22:55:14 <StapleGun_> omfg im dislexic, i thot ehird1 was talking the whole time ...
22:55:20 <oklopol> ehird1: naturally you parse the code, and what's intelligent resizing?
22:55:38 <ehird1> until it reaches len+1
22:55:43 <ehird1> at which point it gives up and errors out
22:55:58 <ehird1> so it squeezes out as much memory as it can
22:57:22 <ehird1> len is the current tape len
22:57:28 <ehird1> so if it can't resize the tape to len*2
22:57:31 <ehird1> i.e. no memory left for it
22:58:11 <ehird1> technically if you have the memory my program can support any brainfuck program up to MAX_INT characters
22:58:14 <oklopol> i recommend rather doing len*2, len*1.5, len*1.25 etc.
22:58:23 <ehird1> and, of course, that is fucking huge
22:58:34 <ehird1> (4,294,967,295 instructions)
22:58:53 <oklopol> or just not allocation the full memory each time...
22:59:02 <ehird1> it doesn't strip out comments, because it uses fread for speed
22:59:10 <oklopol> why not do a stack with every cell being 256 brainfuck cells?
22:59:19 <ehird1> nah, mine is pretty good
22:59:27 <ehird1> although there's some simple bug that is making it infinite lopo
23:00:28 <oklopol> i agree it could suck more.
23:02:04 <ehird1> it was a simple reading error
23:02:27 <ehird1> hello = infini loop :(
23:04:02 <oklopol> hmm, don't wanna be mean here, but how can you not make a brainfuck interpreter work :|
23:04:11 <oklopol> it's like incredibly trivial :P
23:04:16 <ehird1> it's more complex than a regular interp :|
23:04:40 <ehird1> how can "case ',': tape[ptr] = getchar(); if (feof(stdin)) tape[ptr] = 0; break;" not work
23:05:21 <oklopol> what doesn't work with it?
23:06:22 <oklopol> well make it output the current cell
23:06:32 <ehird1> i forgot to save the BF program i was testinh
23:06:37 <ehird1> i had left it as my infinite lopo
23:06:55 <oklopol> are you purposefully typing it as lopo?
23:07:25 <ehird1> ^ running time for ",[.,]" to be cat|'d to itself with the interp
23:07:30 <ehird1> not a bad speed i'd say
23:08:15 <oklopol> try a real program and we'll compare with EgoBot :)
23:08:45 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: YuRRRFEkcmm
23:09:15 <bsmntbombdood> i think next year we should have an #esoteric camp at burning man
23:10:16 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: is that a drug fest?
23:10:36 <oklopol> ehird1: well naturally you make it optimize before the big benchmarks!
23:11:14 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: what then? it was on fg
23:11:50 <lament> of course burning man is a drug fest
23:12:22 <oklopol> i've always wanted to try drugs
23:12:51 <lament> when there's a will, there's a way.
23:17:30 <ehird1> oklopol: it optimizes braces pretty well
23:17:35 <ehird1> StapleGun_: nobody should ever use C++
23:17:45 <oklopol> ehird1: what does that mean?
23:18:21 <ehird1> oklopol: it has a lookup table of [ and ]. literally, there's an array "brackets" and brackets[CODE_POSITION_OF_BRACE] = brackets[CODE_POSITION_OF_MATCHING_BRACE]
23:18:27 <ehird1> it makes [ and ] EXTREMLELY fsat
23:18:30 <ehird1> here, i'll show the code
23:18:43 <oklopol> so basically a hacked-in parse tree
23:18:54 <oklopol> well, naturally you parse the code :P
23:18:59 <ehird1> not a hacked in parse tree
23:19:11 <ehird1> but it does work VERY well
23:19:36 <oklopol> it's basically the same thing as a parse-tree.
23:20:18 <ehird1> it is not [ blah [ blah ] ]
23:20:37 <ehird1> it's a direct mapping from brackets[CLOSE] = OPEN, and brackets[OPEN] = close
23:21:11 <oklopol> well, orly, i just mean it's the same thing as a parse tree if you think about the jumps of the cp
23:21:14 <ehird1> http://rafb.net/p/f9C1U032.html here's the interpreter, it's valid ANSI C89
23:21:31 <ehird1> there's some mysterious infinite-loop bug there and i can't figure out what triggers it, but i'll find out
23:21:44 <ehird1> also, state saving/loading comes later. it'll be trivial to do
23:24:21 <oklopol> err when you expand, where do you move the data to the new array?
23:24:47 <ehird1> i pass a reference to expand_array
23:25:01 <ehird1> note: "unsigned char **array"
23:25:14 <oklopol> doesn't that kinda lose the original array?
23:25:22 <ehird1> uhh, learn what realloc does
23:26:40 <oklopol> and even if i had done it, i'd most likely never have used realloc
23:26:50 <ehird1> eups, i have a major bug
23:26:55 <ehird1> realloc doesn't 0 out :-)
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23:31:23 <staples> it says its already in use lol
23:31:33 <ehird1> http://rafb.net/p/dRDGg445.html bf interpreter v0.5
23:31:42 <ehird1> if anyone knows why that won't run hello world, please enlighten me ;)
23:32:41 <staples> thats too advanced for me, im a cnoob
23:32:59 <ehird1> i didn't say anything about you, did i?
23:35:33 <ehird1> and i have no idea why
23:36:03 <oklopol> but... i'd need to use a C compiler... :<
23:36:41 <ehird1> gcc -g -O3 -Wall -fno-strict-aliasing bf.c -o bf
23:36:44 <ehird1> have yourself a compile line
23:37:13 <oklopol> i think that's your problem
23:37:56 <ehird1> no, the parse tree concept is basically ripped from one of daniel b cristofani's interpreters
23:38:22 <oklopol> the concept works, just thought that might be where minor bug would easiest slip in
23:38:49 <oklopol> but you actually checked it parses correct?
23:39:13 <oklopol> since i'm failing something in that case
23:39:30 <oklopol> not that that's rare or anything.
23:39:46 <ehird1> ok, i may not know what the fuck i'm talking about
23:40:01 <ehird1> and, uh, that loop shouldn't even fucking RUN!
23:40:27 <ehird1> it's short enough i can gdb it
23:41:18 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p364443342.txt
23:41:24 <ehird1> i just need to skip ONE AHEAD
23:41:43 <oklopol> then no need to explain that to me, although i'm a bit curious about how i could fail so badly.
23:42:23 <ehird1> god damnit you're right
23:42:44 <oklopol> so you didn't check the parse tree ;))
23:43:22 <ehird1> 0.015s for hello world
23:43:51 <staples> runs at 0.011 on my computer =D
23:44:43 <ehird1> ok, well you must remember this computer is ancient
23:44:48 <ehird1> on my mac it's likely even faster =)
23:44:57 <ehird1> http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/tests.b i'm doing these now
23:45:13 <staples> python is interpreted isnt it?
23:45:25 <ehird1> and i highly doubt it's 0.011
23:45:29 <ehird1> i mean, python is slow, really
23:45:44 <oklopol> and this is a joke interpreter
23:45:54 <ehird1> mine does some more stuff
23:45:58 <ehird1> and, it's still fucking fast
23:46:00 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p654251462.txt
23:46:16 <ehird1> it's an interpreter-expression!
23:46:27 <oklopol> i wanted to do that with lambdas
23:46:39 <ehird1> you don't factor in python startup!!
23:46:44 <ehird1> remove your clock stuff
23:46:47 <ehird1> then use the unix "time" utility
23:47:07 <ehird1> "real" is the one you want
23:47:09 <oklopol> i'm timing the hello world program.
23:47:14 <ehird1> and that isn't the point
23:47:18 <ehird1> mine factors in interpreter startup too
23:47:37 <oklopol> yeah, and it owns you because of that.
23:47:55 <ehird1> show me what time(1) says, or i am still right
23:48:10 <oklopol> hmm, okay, what was i supposed to do now?
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23:48:42 <ehird1> remove the clock from your code
23:48:52 <ehird1> cd (DIRECTORY TO CODE)
23:49:14 <ehird1> time /cygdrive/c/(PATH TO PYTHON REPLACE "\" WITH "/" AND LEAVE OUT C:\) interp
23:49:26 <ehird1> tell me what it says under "real" at the end
23:50:10 <oklopol> hmm... how do i know where the prompt is when i open it?
23:51:35 <ehird1> c:\documents and settings\username
23:52:27 <ehird1> cd /cygdrive/c/DIRECTORY/SUBDIRECTORY/etc
23:53:38 <oklopol> err... does it know how to run python?
23:53:54 <ehird1> time /cygdrive/c/path/to/python/python.exe FILE
23:54:13 <ehird1> bah, my interpreter seems to suck with multiple lines
23:54:55 <oklopol> 0.031ms when i don't run anything, just time
23:55:00 <oklopol> so... i think you won then?
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23:55:10 <ehird1> you run the hello world surely
23:55:45 <oklopol> time python.exe says "python.exe command not found" and says "real: 0.031ms"
23:55:53 <ehird1> time /cygdrive/c/path/to/python/python.exe FILE
23:56:05 <ehird1> is "python.exe" /cygdrive/c/PATH/TO/PYTHON/python.exe?
23:56:22 <oklopol> i assumed you can just use python.exe if you're in the folder :DD
23:56:35 <ehird1> time ./python.exe script
23:56:41 <ehird1> then tell me what it says after "real"
23:57:55 <oklopol> but i don't really see what that tells ya
23:58:12 <oklopol> why don't you just time your parsing&execution and tell me that?
23:58:13 <ehird1> it tells you mine takes about 0.2 seconds less than yours
23:58:19 <oklopol> who cares how long the program starts :|
23:58:31 <oklopol> i didn't code the python interpreter
23:58:32 <ehird1> it's benchmarks - who cares how fast hello world runs in the first place?
23:59:18 <oklopol> i just wanted to know how much faster yours was
00:00:16 <ehird1> no, that isn't how long my interpreter takes to run
00:00:19 <ehird1> i really don't give a fuck
00:00:26 <ehird1> right now i'm trying to work out why my nesting breaks randomly
00:02:42 <oklopol> pretty much the same speed as an empty program
00:02:49 <oklopol> let's try a more complex program :D
00:03:12 <ehird1> i can't, seeing as my interpreter keeps claiming unmatched braces
00:03:52 <ehird1> http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/fib.b
00:03:55 <ehird1> goes unimaginably fast
00:04:17 <ehird1> just now, i ran it and then as soon as i could - i.e. right after hitting enter, i hit Ctrl-C to terminate it
00:04:20 <ehird1> 077649278811148299629990130790497978399974693652401690797312244381
00:04:26 <ehird1> 1284057871006996373036197088663606849580363983512256652839038466984
00:04:47 <oklopol> you have some big variables
00:05:01 <oklopol> or my python prog or what?
00:05:18 <ehird1> i just checked the whole output --
00:05:21 <ehird1> and it generated - get this
00:05:24 <ehird1> 319!!! fibonacci numbers
00:05:39 <ehird1> in the shortest time i could make it run that my reflexes (which are good) would allow
00:05:52 <oklopol> i don't really find that impressive... fib is O(1), and O(n) if you do one by one
00:06:08 <ehird1> how about i leave it going for 10 seconds
00:07:00 <ehird1> ok, in 7.812s it calculated 3190 fibonacci numbers
00:07:06 <ehird1> now are you impressed? at least mildly? ;)
00:08:25 <oklopol> mine doesn't do that right i think
00:08:52 <ehird1> using the standard brainfuck text reversal program
00:09:01 <ehird1> if i pipe my interpreter's source code to itself running that program
00:09:07 <ehird1> it takes 0.047s to run
00:10:24 <oklopol> what should the fibonacci program output?
00:10:28 <staplegun_> do you start with 1 and 1 as the first two in the array b4 u start the sequence?
00:10:58 <ehird1> oklopol: fibonnaci numbers in decimal, one per line, continuously until halted
00:11:04 <ehird1> http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/fib.b
00:11:15 <oklopol> >< >< >< >< >< >< >< >< ><['<', '<', '+', '>', '+', '>', '-']><['>', '+', '<', '-', ['>', '+', '<', '-', ['>', '+', '<', '-', ['>', '+', '<', '-', ['>', '+', '<
00:12:10 <oklopol> my program doesn't do any output before the program finishes.
00:12:29 <ehird1> speaking of which i should flush stdout on each bit of output, shouldn't i?
00:13:07 <ehird1> it should output when it gets the output
00:14:21 <oklopol> oh yeah, school tomorrow ->
00:14:32 <ehird1> would you like it if python did that?
00:16:32 <oklopol> i generally dislike side-effects in programs where they're not needed
00:16:58 <ehird1> i fixed my interpreter
00:17:08 <oklopol> tralso, my screen is black now. wonder what happened....
00:17:13 <oklopol> and wonder what i'm typing
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02:37:34 <Fa1r> i meenz that i can sii my staple
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02:38:15 <pikhq> I think is the first time that someone has been in #esoteric without knowing Brainfuck.
02:39:13 <pikhq> How *dare* you not make sense of >,[>,]<[.<]!
02:40:17 <Fa1r> pikhq, actually those are just different types of symbols o_O -.-
02:40:27 <pikhq> Fa1r: It's a valid Brainfuck program.
02:40:39 <pikhq> And a fairly simple example of Brainfuck at that.
02:40:45 <Fa1r> so if you are coding bf, the spectator knows it, if not, then maybe not
02:40:54 <stap1egun> looks like an input char until char is null then go back and overwrite it
02:41:22 <pikhq> This is #esoteric. . . And Brainfuck is the canonical esoteric language.
02:41:29 <Fa1r> hum... sounds like useful one ^___^
02:41:32 <pikhq> stap1egun: Well, yeah. . . Really, it just reverses its input.
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02:43:06 <schad> if im writing a 2d esoteric language which uses a stack, would it be easier to write the interpreter in python or c?
02:43:19 <schad> sorry, not 2d, grid based
02:43:21 <pikhq> I'm not sure about *easier*. . .
02:43:35 <pikhq> But I'd still do C.
02:43:42 <pikhq> (largely because I don't know Python)
02:43:54 <schad> i know c but im a nub
02:44:22 <Fa1r> inventing a language is first thing to do as a "nub"?
02:44:42 <pikhq> Fa1r: A dc clone would be a fairly simple thing to do as a C n00b.
02:44:45 <Fa1r> oh shite, i must have missed something..
02:44:53 <schad> i just dont program c very well
02:45:02 <pikhq> (doing it *right* would be tricky, though. :p)
02:45:12 <schad> i made a piet interpreter
02:45:13 <Fa1r> c is quite fun, err, shit.
02:45:43 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/bubble.c
02:45:47 <Fa1r> s/n.+b/newbie/
02:45:50 <pikhq> Bubble sort in obfuscated C.
02:46:17 <Fa1r> fuck those ff plugins updating every night.. ;(
02:47:05 <schad> http://esolangs.org/wiki/PHAWN
02:48:32 <Fa1r> sound like something easy to maintain..
02:48:54 <Fa1r> keep your work! switch to any esolang today!!
02:49:16 <pikhq> I'm reminded of Befunge.
02:49:47 <Fa1r> unixcat is long :>
02:50:12 <schad> yea its alot like befunge i guess
02:51:33 <schad> i wanted it to look so messy and confusing, like when you open an exe in notepad >_>
02:53:12 <pikhq> Cute; a Windows user.
02:53:56 <schad> well, i wud use linux, but i cant get company of heroes to run on it
02:54:09 <schad> also i have to do all my assignments in ... omfg ... vb
02:54:27 <Fa1r> pink teddies for the bosses ;-A
02:54:58 <schad> lucky ive got my last high school exam in a few weeks and i can start my conversion to linux
02:55:03 <pikhq> Where do you go to school, and may I recommend you go to somewhere more prestigious, like the local degree mill?
02:55:28 <pikhq> Who the fuck still uses VB6?
02:55:29 <schad> the it manager is a complete dumb ass
02:55:34 <pikhq> Who the fuck ever uses VB?
02:55:55 <schad> he says he doesnt want to upgrade to 2005 because its .net and a completely different language
02:56:02 <schad> i had to stop my self from loling in front of him
02:56:28 <pikhq> The words "Visual Basic" say that it's a bad choice.
02:56:46 <schad> my teacher couldn't debug this line
02:56:54 <schad> textBoxMain.Text = Hello World!
02:57:04 <pikhq> (of course, you must remember that I've been coding since I was 8. . . Programming is. . . Simple.)
02:57:13 <schad> i love programming
02:57:54 <pikhq> But are you any good?
02:58:11 <schad> in the languages ive taken time to learn i guess
02:58:19 <pikhq> How long have you been coding?
02:58:40 <schad> when did dark reign 2 come out? cause i started programming in c code for their mods
02:58:51 <schad> i didnt realise it was c at the time though
02:58:58 <schad> and i had to program it in a text file
02:59:05 <schad> so since 2000 i guess
02:59:45 * pikhq has been coding for 10 years. :)
03:00:27 <Fa1r> "and i had to program it in a text file" <- err.. where d'you put it now, then?
03:00:57 <schad> the game interpreted it, it was actualy c, but it read structures and functions like it was
03:01:09 <schad> ill see if i can find an example
03:01:15 <pikhq> Then I doubt that it's C.
03:01:41 <schad> omg have they finally taken the dr2 site down?
03:02:29 <schad> no, it wasnt c it was c style
03:03:25 <schad> gah its all zipped up in zwp
03:04:45 <schad> i tried leanring c++ with opengl so i can make games
03:05:05 <schad> i could get the c++ but game engine architecture i was terrible at
03:05:54 <Fa1r> well.. games are kinda "no man's job"
03:05:59 <Fa1r> you know what i'm saying
03:08:27 <schad> do you guys program in assembly ever/
03:08:55 <pikhq> It's amazing how small you can make a "Hello, world!" program.
03:09:33 <schad> i want to learn it after i learn how to do something significant in c
03:10:01 <pikhq> At last count I was at 76 bytes. . .
03:12:24 <schad> what kind of stuff do u program? just esoteric languages?
03:13:08 <schad> its way more interesting than trying to code an fps in c++ or ... game maker for that matter
03:14:58 <pikhq> Compilers are fun to write, too.
03:14:58 <Fa1r> programming in esoteric? well.. the point is you never get anything usable with esoteric
03:15:24 <schad> writing an interpreter
03:15:27 <Fa1r> they're mostly made of showoff and fun
03:15:40 * pikhq has written a game in Brainfuck.
03:15:52 <schad> i want to see that
03:15:53 <pikhq> Granted, I cheated, via a language I developed that targets Brainfuck. . .
03:16:10 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/game.b IIRC.
03:16:23 <schad> hmm browsing these config files 5 years later tells me i didnt have any clue what the c prorgamming language was
03:16:41 <Fa1r> game = usable, console game = fun. right
03:16:46 <Fa1r> .. there you have it.
03:17:13 <pikhq> Try googling "Lost Kingdom" for something more astounding.
03:17:57 <pikhq> It's a larger game in Brainfuck.
03:19:23 <schad> holy fucking christ
03:20:01 <Fa1r> now that was a _surprise_... japanese && anime && based on cards && echo "Hell yeah! ;E"
03:23:42 <pikhq> http://jonripley.com/i-fiction/games/LostKingdomBF.html
03:24:06 <schad> 2.5 mb source code
03:28:02 <schad> visual c++ can compile c code cant it?
03:28:33 <pikhq> Try Cygwin or Mingw.
03:37:31 <schad> http://www.java2s.com/Code/C/Data-Structure-Algorithm/StackinC.htm is that an ok way to handle a stack? or wud there be a better way?
03:38:54 <pikhq> I recommend implementing it via a linked list.
03:39:00 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/dc.c.tar.bz2
03:41:00 <pikhq> stack.c and stack.h are a decent stack implementation.
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05:14:33 <immibis> "....using Microsofts malicious software removal tool." <--- Microsoft's software removal tool is malicious?
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05:20:18 <RodgerTheGreat> oh snap, somebody applied a restriction enzyme to immibis' quit message virus!
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10:39:39 <oklopol> i think the reason that virus isn't spreading is that it's not self-modifying
10:40:53 <oklopol> pikhq: i win with 11 years!
10:41:20 <oklopol> (unless this is also about coding capabilities, in which case you most likely beat me ;))
10:41:45 <oklopol> let's just hope oerjan doesn't see this
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10:59:55 <oklopol> errr immibis' quit message virus
11:38:15 <oklopol> opinions here, since i'm not that good at designing gui:s anyone but me would enjoy, i'm making a program for drawing elecrical circuits, how should it behave when the window is resized?
11:39:36 <oklopol> i mean, should it have a fixed amount of divisions x- and y-wise, so that no matter what the size is, the grid would have the same amount of points; or should i have it just draw less of the circuit so that the distance betwen two points is fixed?
11:52:18 <oklopol> i already implemented the latter one
11:52:42 <oklopol> it looks kinda nice, i'll add something to inc/dec the gridsize if necessary.
11:53:01 <staplegun> it hindsight the latter would be better for me, i have a 1920x1200 display lol
11:53:32 <staplegun> too bad it cant help my python code ....
11:54:01 <oklopol> you mean the size of your window won't compensate for your lack of skills?
11:56:04 <oklopol> magnets are unbelievably cool.
11:56:32 <oklopol> trying to do without the ++
11:57:11 <staplegun> everyone tries to make me do ++ style casting, when c is far superior
11:58:36 <oklopol> i should get back to coding...
11:59:16 <staplegun> u toking about magnets irl? or the ones ur programming?
12:00:11 <oklopol> the circuit thing is very primitive, it just knows basic logic ports, wires and err transmitters
12:00:30 <staplegun> is it a modelling tool? or just something for fun
12:01:26 <oklopol> we are using this thing called TINA pro at school for this, it kinda sucks as it's just a trial version
12:01:58 <oklopol> so i'm basically making this to be able to save my models
12:02:12 <oklopol> i dunno if i'll add anything that actually let's you do anything complicated
12:04:55 <staplegun> no matter what, px will decrease by one right? even if the exception causes a break? (its in a while loop)
12:05:33 <staplegun> that saves me having to write a flag
12:06:38 <staplegun> thats why it wasnt working i never actually set the variable to the users input ...
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13:35:21 <staplegun> woot i got fib 10000 to run on my esolang
13:39:06 <oklopol> time.clock() gives a number representing the current time
13:39:21 <oklopol> i guess it's that unix timestamp or whaddyacallit
13:46:16 <oklopol> hmph, i've really gotten lazy having used python for so long :P
13:46:46 <staplegun> printed fibonacci numbers up to 1,500,520,536,206,896,083,277 in 0.0194 seconds
13:46:49 <oklopol> in python, everything takes a second to do, and never has bugs
13:47:01 <staplegun> lol i love python, i started learning it today
13:47:03 <oklopol> in c, i actually have to think about the details, and still i get bugs :|
13:47:22 <staplegun> and ive pretty much finished writing my esolang interpreter
13:48:22 <staplegun> now, if i can get hello world workin
13:51:12 <SimonRC> staplegun: what the f is that?
14:17:04 * SimonRC is crating a forthlike language, due to boredom
14:24:18 <staplegun> someone linked me to a site earlier where you could post code blocks and it would highlight in the language you specify
14:24:30 <staplegun> like a read only browser based syntax highlighter
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14:29:40 <Figs> http://blog.wolfram.com/2007/10/the_prize_is_won_the_simplest.html <-- you guys see this yet?
14:40:25 <Figs> I thought it was kind of interesting since the solver was described as having a "background in mathematics and esoteric programming languages" :P
14:40:31 <Figs> (the math aside)
14:41:22 <staplegun> im happy cus i finally got a working version of my interpreter
14:41:33 <Figs> made me think -- "Hey, I know some esoteric programmers... wait a sec, I wonder if this is one of them..."
14:41:53 <Figs> what interpreter?
14:42:11 <Figs> revise: an interpreter for what?
14:47:10 <Figs> what does it look like?
14:48:18 <Figs> http://www.springerlink.com/content/uxuc20mnurg4qjug/ <-- DNA = UTM? Nifty.
14:49:02 <Figs> I don't think I'd understand the chapter though :(
14:49:35 <Figs> we need a DNA Esolang! ... assuming no one has done it yet
14:49:50 <staplegun> but ill stick to my ascii .. took me hours just to write my hello world example ...
14:50:24 <staplegun> it is actually most influenced by piet lol
14:50:50 <Figs> hmm, imagine that it'd give you 4 'base pairs' like ZXCV or something, and you'd write lines like
14:51:42 <Figs> pairs of three would count as coding-units...
14:51:46 <Figs> err... sets of three
14:51:50 <Figs> pairs of three = wtf? :P
14:52:21 <Figs> yes... my pair of boots is actually three shoes... O.o
14:52:45 <Figs> you could code "virtual Proteins"
14:53:08 <Figs> that would end up running in parallel...
14:53:43 <Figs> they would "contort" to various mathematical shapes based on Figsics
14:54:18 <Figs> I think I have invented a mental nightamre
14:54:28 <Figs> too bad I can't write it
14:54:47 <Figs> I've been up all night again
14:55:02 <Figs> well, at least there's not school tomorrow
14:55:30 <Figs> California fires
14:55:39 <Figs> school got cancelled.
14:56:36 <Figs> if I got two turing machines together...
14:56:48 <Figs> so that each time I need to look up a state
14:56:55 <Figs> it launches another machine...
14:57:10 <Figs> is that more complicated than a single turing machine?
14:57:20 <staplegun> i think uve been awake too long :D
14:57:59 <Figs> yeah, I should be going to bed, in theory
14:58:03 <Figs> damn ye paper!
14:58:09 <Figs> ... I've been trying to write this paper
14:58:11 <Figs> since I got up
14:58:16 <Figs> ...wtf am I doing here? :P
14:58:22 <Figs> *brain random*
14:58:35 <Figs> summary of a sci. am. article
14:58:48 <Figs> (the argument in the article, not the article itself)
14:58:57 <Figs> and 2 pages = amt for me to write
14:59:01 <Figs> (the article itself is longer)
14:59:43 <Figs> seriously though, can I have a turing machine with an infinite number of states? O.o
14:59:55 <Figs> does that even make sense? O.o
15:00:01 <staplegun> depends how many turing machines u can handle
15:00:02 <Figs> my brain must be broken
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15:09:02 <Figs> China + Japan are in a space race?
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15:13:03 <bsmntbombdood> http://blog.wolfram.com/2007/10/the_prize_is_won_the_simplest.html?lid=title
15:13:56 <Figs> still cool though
15:14:25 * Figs prods bsmntbombdood and says "Hi!"
15:15:08 <Figs> wtf, it smells like smoke
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15:26:52 <ehird`> wow, you're still here?
15:29:17 <staplegun> but i was up for a while working on stuff
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15:29:43 <ehird`> my bf interp only kind of works =(
15:30:45 <Figs> missed him by a minute
15:31:04 <ehird`> hi i'm perfecting my bf interpreter
15:31:17 <Figs> I wrote a BF interpreter a while back...
15:31:25 <ehird`> hopefully it should run The Craziest BF Program Ever (the Lost Kingdom text adventure) smoothly
15:31:29 <Figs> I forgot about that :P
15:31:33 <ehird`> but right now it just spews out "Hangup" and dies
15:31:50 <Figs> I wonder if my program would work
15:31:59 <Figs> how long is the program?
15:32:19 <ehird`> (it's compiled from basic)
15:32:53 <Figs> I only wrote my program to accept up to 9999
15:32:57 <Figs> so that won't fit :P
15:33:08 <ehird`> mine dynamically resizes all of its storages
15:33:27 <Figs> IIRC, mine you type in by hand at the prompt, so...
15:33:34 <ehird`> if you have enough memory you can store up to MAX_UINT (maximum unsigned int value) elements in each
15:33:51 <ehird`> On a 32bit system that's 4,294,967,295 elements in each array
15:33:51 <Figs> (why with a k? I don't know.)
15:34:02 <ehird`> past that it'll just die but i doubt i have to worry ;)
15:34:15 <ehird`> if it used 64-bit ints? Then 18,446,744,073,709,551,615
15:34:47 <Figs> well, in theory...
15:34:53 <Figs> you could load it from the file
15:35:04 <Figs> and only work with a small subset of the bytes ...
15:35:21 <ehird`> you will need shitloads of RAM anyway to run a program of that size ;)
15:35:29 <ehird`> (it pre-parses brackets)
15:35:57 <ehird`> also, mine can save and load state
15:36:00 <Figs> "No one will ever need more than 640K of RAM" (BIll Gates)
15:36:10 <ehird`> SIGSUSP (aka ^Z) asks for a file name and then saves a dump to it
15:36:17 <Figs> [did I get that right?]
15:36:25 <ehird`> you can then reload the dump (and the source file if you did not include it with the dump) and it'll resume from there
15:36:34 <ehird`> this is because i am going to write a Forth system in brainfuck
15:36:37 <ehird`> so that will be how i save images
15:37:26 <Figs> I need to finish that fucking parser system...
15:37:33 <Figs> or move to a better language
15:37:51 <Figs> does D have operator overloading?
15:38:03 <ehird`> C is the best for writing interpreters for esolangs, most of the time
15:38:09 <ehird`> since speed is good when your language itself is fscking slow
15:38:23 <Figs> this isn't for an eso-lang...
15:38:23 <ehird`> my debug output is great
15:38:27 <Figs> (at this point :)
15:39:00 <Figs> it was me ol' general parser system
15:39:18 <Figs> the one that looks like
15:39:32 <Figs> it ain't CS, I don't think
15:39:48 <Figs> since I don't allow x Y z = A >> B >> C...
15:40:00 <Figs> just Y = A >> B >> C
15:40:33 <Figs> sadly, I don't know how to handle errors in ambiguous grammars :(
15:41:24 <Figs> how to even get around some of the issues of ambiguity
15:41:38 <ehird`> okay, my problem is this line: memset(new + *current, 0, try);
15:41:44 <ehird`> when resizing the code array to 2000 elements
15:41:58 <ehird`> *current is the previous size of the array, try is - AHA
15:42:09 <ehird`> it's segfaulting because it's overflowing the memory
15:42:28 <Figs> memory overflow shouldn't get a :) from me
15:42:47 <ehird`> well... it is marginally better now
15:42:51 <ehird`> as in, it gets a bit further ;)
15:42:54 <ehird`> but i have a segfault LATER...
15:43:19 <ehird`> Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
15:43:19 <ehird`> 0x00401702 in main (argc=2, argv=0x662008) at bf.c:131
15:43:19 <ehird`> 131brackets[code_ptr] = stack[stack_ptr];
15:43:37 <Figs> sigh, CF ambiguity is undecidable
15:43:54 <ehird`> that's a lot of just read
15:44:25 <Figs> it says "Exprot this chapter as RIS|Text"
15:45:13 <Figs> wait, wtf, it's almost 8 am?!
15:45:42 <ehird`> oh no now you're doing to leave
15:46:16 <Figs> no, I'm going to have to figure out how to write my essay real fast
15:46:35 <Figs> I was supposed to turn it in almost 15 hours ago...
15:46:35 <ehird`> :( maybe it's my crazy casting
15:46:48 <ehird`> i have this: expand_array((unsigned char **)&stack, &stack_size);
15:47:06 <Figs> hehe, I've had my head in java for too long at this point
15:47:15 <ehird`> yeah well i don't want to duplicate my expand_array code
15:47:22 <Figs> brainwashing, I say...
15:47:35 <Figs> Ooh! http://www.springerlink.com/content/fp7p38r0333p1441/fulltext.pdf
15:48:04 <ehird`> i just added this debug message
15:48:05 <ehird`> printf("I'm in ur ptrs, not segfaulting\n");
15:48:12 <Figs> I should just give all failure points for error, shouldn't I?
15:48:15 <Figs> (as a list...)
15:48:25 <ehird`> I'm in ur ptrs, not segfaulting
15:48:25 <ehird`> Segmentation fault (core dumped)
15:49:24 <ehird`> damn my segfault isn't even in expand_array
15:50:48 <ehird`> i'm not stepping through, it reads like half the file before dying
15:50:55 <ehird`> i don't have ten years :P
15:51:09 <Figs> make it catch in a special place
15:51:45 <Figs> (I'm an evil masochistic bastard, I guess, but *cough* setjmp + goto */cough*)
15:51:55 <ehird`> brackets[code_ptr] = stack[stack_ptr];
15:51:55 <ehird`> brackets[stack[stack_ptr]] = code_ptr;
15:52:00 <ehird`> the segfault happens on these two
15:52:21 <Figs> you be askin' da wrong guy
15:52:29 <ehird`> i'm just talking to no-one
15:52:31 <Figs> I left my pointers at the door
15:52:37 <ehird`> hacking away in urxvt and gvim
15:52:37 <Figs> when I started Java-class :P
15:52:44 <ehird`> ... on windows, because i'm stuck on a windows box right now
15:53:02 <ehird`> with my nice X interface
15:53:07 <ehird`> not any of that lame windows gvim
15:53:15 <ehird`> this stuff anti-aliases text properly
15:53:29 <Figs> I've had to use it on Red Hat for CS...
15:53:38 <Figs> and I hate not being able to highlight shit
15:53:46 <Figs> and use what I'm used to doing in a text editor
15:54:10 <Figs> I started using something else.
15:54:11 <ehird`> you can highlight shit
15:54:15 <ehird`> i guess you just don't know vim
15:54:19 <Figs> no, I don't :P
15:54:20 <ehird`> but even gvim, lets you use even the mouse to highlight
15:54:32 <ehird`> it lets you scroll with a scroll-wheel... it's practically notepad except it's modal
15:54:48 <ehird`> i use a lot of its notepaddy features actually
15:54:48 <Figs> maybe the way they have it configured here is weird
15:54:58 <ehird`> i am guilty of selecting text with the mouse and pressing d
15:55:00 <Figs> I am a noob at it though :P
15:55:03 <ehird`> i also use the scrollbar a lot
15:55:12 <ehird`> but i like vim's commands, so
15:55:48 <Figs> I started using a different program
15:55:52 <Figs> I forget the name
15:56:28 <Figs> I think it was something generic like 'text'
15:56:34 <Figs> memory != good
15:57:20 <Figs> I'll play with it later and babble again another day
15:57:27 <Figs> when school starts again
15:57:32 <ehird`> Segmentation fault (core dumped)
15:57:35 <Figs> (closed all week due to fire)
15:57:41 <ehird`> both of the first two numbers are lesser than the latter
15:57:44 <ehird`> so why am i getting a segfault
15:58:04 <ehird`> printf("%i VS %i\n", code_ptr, brackets_size);
15:58:04 <ehird`> printf("%i VS %i\n", stack[stack_ptr], brackets_size);
15:58:04 <ehird`> brackets[code_ptr] = stack[stack_ptr];
15:58:04 <ehird`> brackets[stack[stack_ptr]] = code_ptr;
15:58:33 <ehird`> since they're both within the boundries of brackets-size as you can see in my previous paste
15:58:39 <ehird`> why on earth would it segfault on those brackets lines
15:58:52 <ehird`> (x_ptr is an int index of an array, always)
15:59:04 <ehird`> x_size is the size of the x array
15:59:52 <Figs> too much recursion?
16:00:01 <ehird`> i don't recurse, in the whole thing
16:00:04 <ehird`> brackets[code_ptr] = stack[stack_ptr];
16:00:05 <Figs> then not that :P
16:00:17 <Figs> gdb always gives me BS
16:00:33 <ehird`> but the debug output is right
16:00:36 <ehird`> it prints the ones before
16:00:38 <ehird`> and not the ones after
16:00:45 <ehird`> but code_ptr<brackets_size so wtf
16:02:54 <ehird`> hehe, in my interpreter
16:03:06 <ehird`> +[>+] has already forced the interpreter
16:03:09 <ehird`> to resize to 30720000 cells
16:03:22 <ehird`> (and it resizes to current*2 by default -- so that's pretty impressive)
16:03:52 <ehird`> (it also happens to be extremely fast at generating fibonacci numbers)
16:04:54 <Figs> touch. touch. touch touch. touch touch touch. touch touch touch touch touch...
16:05:15 <ehird`> might get a bit hard after the first few..
16:05:24 <ehird`> touch touch touch... (ten years) ...touch touch touch touch ...
16:10:18 <ehird`> give me a program to test my interp with
16:11:01 <Figs> +++[>++++++++++++<-]>.
16:11:11 <Figs> !bf +++[>++++++++++++<-]>.
16:11:47 <ehird`> it runs in 0.015 seconds, and outputs $
16:12:18 <ehird`> it runs in infinity seconds and outputs nothing
16:12:26 <Figs> did the computer tell you that? :P
16:12:26 <ehird`> but, it just sits there, obviously
16:12:39 <ehird`> i have a halting problem solver built in
16:12:56 <ehird`> oh, +[] also consumes 99% cpu
16:13:08 <ehird`> but it doesn't lag the sytsem, heh
16:13:30 <Figs> heh, I should write that like
16:13:37 <Figs> it looks cooler
16:13:46 <ehird`> that one also takes up insane amounts of cpu
16:13:48 <ehird`> but hangs there memory-wise
16:13:53 <ehird`> as, of course, it wraps from 255 to 0
16:14:04 <ehird`> of course, it will use 99% cpu most of the time
16:14:17 <Figs> +[>+<->>++<->]+
16:14:26 <ehird`> if you're not getting input or bottlenecked by output, you want to execute the instructions as fast as possible
16:14:33 <ehird`> so, i think that's desired behaviour
16:14:44 <ehird`> also, it uses a little over 1mb of ram by default it seems
16:14:46 <ehird`> remember, this is windows
16:14:52 <ehird`> so that overhead will be MUCH LESS on other os
16:15:00 <ehird`> i'll try +[>+<->>++<->]+
16:15:07 <ehird`> and i tried the reverse program a while ago
16:15:13 <ehird`> it runs basically as fast as the equivilant c program
16:15:23 <ehird`> most trivial programs do
16:15:33 <ehird`> it doesn't even optimize
16:15:55 <Figs> []_[] >> -[-]-_-[-] << []_[]
16:16:06 <ehird`> it just pre-parses the brackets so that [ and ] are just a conditional followed by setting the code pointer to the entry in the array
16:16:19 <ehird`> also +[>+<->>++<->]+ just biggifies the array, heh
16:16:26 <Figs> that's the idea
16:16:45 <Figs> does that other program work?
16:16:51 <Figs> (are you doing wrap-around?)
16:16:55 <ehird`> +[>+<->>++<->]+, when run for 10.250s
16:17:01 <ehird`> resizes the array to 122880000
16:17:11 <ehird`> (it'll use a lot less though, just over 61440000)
16:17:15 <ehird`> since, of course, it resizes to double
16:17:37 <ehird`> mine does 0-255 wrap around yes
16:17:40 <ehird`> i'll run []_[] >> -[-]-_-[-] << []_[]
16:18:10 <ehird`> but it's immediate to my eyes ;)
16:18:22 <ehird`> it's basically a little slower than a nop program haha
16:18:38 <Figs> d(O_O)b <[Hello Friggen World]
16:18:59 <Figs> I wrote a poem in a java app before
16:19:05 <ehird`> i can tell you without even testing that one
16:19:10 <ehird`> it will just execute with "error: tape underflow"
16:19:17 <ehird`> since you can't go < from element 0
16:19:48 <ehird`> (in old-style implementations it'd wrap around to the last cell, but of course with an "infinite tape" (well, dynamically resized, but from BF it is percieved as infinite, it makes no sense)
16:20:01 <Figs> expanding universe!
16:20:03 <ehird`> that runs in the same time as your nop program
16:20:14 <Figs> it should give 3 nulls as outputs
16:20:17 <ehird`> and produces three null bytes
16:21:18 <ehird`> "error: unmatched [" is a kimian quine in my implementation
16:21:38 <ehird`> "error: unmatched ] at 17" is a vaguely more interesting one
16:22:27 <Figs> (lim x->0 d/dx x^2+2x+1) [>+++<]>.
16:22:54 <ehird`> runs forever, seemingly
16:23:11 <ehird`> what platform are you on?
16:23:12 <Figs> me = stupid with that.
16:23:21 <ehird`> please say linux, please say linux, please say linux so you can run c2bf
16:23:36 <ehird`> i wanted to try hello world
16:24:03 <ehird`> do you know anything about writing a forth?
16:24:43 <ehird`> do you want to read http://www.annexia.org/_file/jonesforth.s.txt and http://www.annexia.org/_file/jonesforth.f.txt as a combined implementation-tutorial and then help me implement BrainForth? ;)
16:24:49 <Figs> ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
16:25:01 <Figs> If I had time :(
16:25:10 <Figs> sadly, I am procrastinating already
16:25:19 <ehird`> and that's just a hello world
16:25:28 <Figs> I thought you wanted a hello world?
16:25:39 <Figs> (I pulled it out of wikipedia magic land)
16:26:11 <Figs> ,----------[----------------------.,----------]
16:26:18 <ehird`> hello world /from c2bf/
16:28:32 <Figs> http://www.inteldaily.com/?c=173&a=3993 beware, disturbing!
16:30:36 <Figs> http://ineedawriter.com/blog/2007/10/contextual-advertising-mistakes.html
16:32:45 <Figs> "shake and bake"
16:32:49 <Figs> what a terrible thing to say
16:32:54 <Figs> [about california]
16:33:14 <Figs> -- apparently there was a minor earthquake earlier ;P
16:33:37 <ehird`> http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2400/1634346479_af8e068ebd.jpg?v=0
16:33:51 <Figs> I like the one at the end
16:34:09 <Figs> also the black mcdonald's ad
16:34:44 <ehird`> i love the last video one
16:34:52 <Figs> didn't watch it
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16:59:32 <Figs> http://www.flickr.com/photos/dcreeves2000/139184796/
17:08:47 * ehird` is writing a simple stack-based-language-to-BF compiler
17:09:25 <ehird`> name call call call ; another call call call
17:09:41 <ehird`> i.e. first word is the new word to define's name, after that what words to call
17:09:46 <ehird`> ; terminates the definition and starts again
17:09:49 <ehird`> the last word defined is called
17:17:32 <ehird`> http://pastie.caboo.se/pastes/93052 i have never heard of this language before
17:17:35 <ehird`> is it TC? i don't think so
17:20:12 <ehird`> certainly i doubt you can write a bf interpreter in it
17:20:17 <ehird`> but, what about a tag machine?
17:20:27 <ehird`> wait, it doesn't have any control structure
17:20:35 <Figs> can you even test for equality?
17:20:45 <ehird`> it doesn't matter, there's no control structure
17:21:13 <ehird`> that interpreter is in ruby, yes...
17:21:17 <Figs> I thought it was python :P
17:21:20 <Figs> but I don't use either
17:21:25 <ehird`> does python have "end"? ;)
17:21:33 <Figs> I don't use either :P
17:21:35 <ehird`> python's blocks are indentation based
17:22:40 <Figs> can you add or subtract?
17:22:53 <ehird`> XOR is add without carry...
17:23:03 <Figs> can you branch? :P
17:23:09 <ehird`> nope, i told you that already
17:23:20 <ehird`> you MIGHT be able to simulate a tag machine in it, rhough
17:23:35 <Figs> could you push pop the stack to simulate branching?
17:23:57 <Figs> *Engage brain before talking*
17:24:09 <ehird`> http://www.contextfreeart.org/ i am going to play around with this
17:24:19 <ehird`> a logo that produces better quality images, and can recurse /infinitely/?
17:24:38 <ehird`> seriously. it can recurse to infinite depth as long as the drawings small to -infinity in size
17:24:45 <ehird`> which is... very often
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17:33:13 <Figs> http://eightsolid.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/18.jpg
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18:00:12 * ehird` ponders whether you can draw a sierpinski triangle in cfdg
18:29:15 <oerjan> oklopol: ABANDON ALL HOPE
18:30:11 <oerjan> <oklopol> let's just hope oerjan doesn't see this
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18:47:24 <ehird`> oerjan: i fixed my BF interpreter :-)
18:47:35 <ehird`> now it works on EVERYTHING aprat from that 2mb text adventure (and i'm trying to fix tha)
18:49:40 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: i am sure he is interested
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19:40:09 <ehird`> woot, my brainfuck interp no longer crashes on LostKng.b
19:40:16 <ehird`> however, it lags forever
19:40:20 <ehird`> so something is taking Too Long
19:40:52 <ehird`> ah, it's just slow execution
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20:09:11 <bsmntbombdood> the other guy in this room is loudly stuffing his face with popcorn and grunting
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20:38:56 <ehird`> pix of his fixed sex organs, or the other guy?
20:49:12 <bsmntbombdood> i would get charged with the production of child pornography and child molestation
20:49:39 <bsmntbombdood> and transporting child pornography across state lines
20:49:54 <GregorR> Hmmmm ........ I wonder if you can be charged for making child pornography of yourself :P
20:51:07 <bsmntbombdood> given the minimum sentences for those i would go to jail for at least 15 years or so on conviction
20:51:47 <bsmntbombdood> it would be the ultimate irony when they charged me as an adult
20:51:52 <oklopol> that would also be a crime in my part
20:52:37 <oklopol> looking isn't all that dangerous in my opinion.
20:56:00 <oklopol> i think you know more words than me
20:56:11 <bsmntbombdood> that doesn't mean i know all the words that you know
20:56:21 <bsmntbombdood> and you know more words than mean, considering all languages
20:57:36 <bsmntbombdood> i should use my irc logs to find how many words i us
20:58:48 <oklopol> i prolly at least have known a lot of english words you don't, since i used to browse the dictionary quite a lot, but i can't really conjure anything up just like that :<
21:02:00 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: i don't know, but it's "" in WordUsage
21:02:31 <oklopol> it's like 10 lines of python
21:03:48 <ehird`> actually it's one line of python
21:04:06 <ehird`> well, if you have a string of all the text he's said.
21:06:15 <oklopol> [a[i] for i in range(len(a)) if not a[i] in a[i+1:]]
21:06:29 <ehird`> dict((w, said.count(w)) for w in dict(map(lambda i: (i,1),said.split(" "))).keys())
21:06:29 <oklopol> somehow i insisted on using a dict
21:06:42 <ehird`> returns {word: count, ...} for each word, with no duplicates
21:06:50 <ehird`> (that is what the crazy lambda trick is for)
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21:07:04 <ehird`> assuming said is "i said this line and then this line abc abc def"
21:07:09 <ehird`> i.e. a string of all his text
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21:09:08 <ehird`> sorted((w, said.count(w)) for w in dict(map(lambda i: (i,1),said.split(" "))).keys()) <-- sorted list version
21:09:34 <oklopol> count don't word of course
21:09:45 <oerjan> import Data.Set; main = interact $ show . size . fromList . words
21:09:52 <ehird`> why doesn't count work
21:09:58 <oerjan> (you knew i couldn't resist, right?)
21:10:00 <oklopol> >>> said="i said this and that"
21:10:00 <oklopol> >>> dict([(w, said.count(w)) for w in dict(map(lambda i: (i,1),said.split(" "))).keys()])
21:10:00 <oklopol> {'i': 3, 'this': 1, 'and': 1, 'said': 1, 'that': 1}
21:10:32 <ehird`> i'll improve it incrementally
21:10:47 <ehird`> dict((w, said.count(w)) for w in set(said.split(" ")))
21:11:50 <ehird`> again, replace "dict" with "sorted" for a sorted list of (word, usage)
21:11:51 <oklopol> except you lose the linearity
21:13:58 <oklopol> oklotalk!! set split Saidstuff
21:15:25 <ehird`> ListLang! {for \e, said, [e,count], \unique}
21:15:30 <oklopol> why not {freq Saidstuff}, adding built-in functions is easy when you don't have an implementation
21:15:32 <ehird`> (note: has no implementation, yet)
21:27:50 <oerjan> and ehird` is back misunderstanding
21:28:53 <oerjan> afaic recall, i have not yet done that while trying to use lambdabot for anything other than demonstrating on #haskell...
21:29:26 <ehird`> ok, what were you doing then? :P
21:29:55 <oerjan> er, did i use too many negatives?
21:32:25 <oerjan> i was demonstrating on #haskell
21:37:31 <ehird`> NEAR-IMPOSSIBLE TASK #341: implementing an associative array in brainfuck
21:38:31 <oklopol> if you do char->char, it's pretty trivial
21:38:49 <ehird`> string->char or string->string
21:38:56 <ehird`> latter more impressive, former more realistic
21:39:54 <GregorR> I think C2BF is probably sufficient to make that right now :P
21:39:58 <ehird`> if you can do string->(string, char) you're well on your way to a markov chain in BF ;)
21:40:15 <ehird`> GregorR: i can't run c2bf on any platform i run
21:40:18 <oklopol> string->string=string->char
21:40:25 <ehird`> (windows right now, unfortunately. OS X most of the time)
21:40:30 <oklopol> string->string=string->(string,char)
21:40:35 <ehird`> it segfaults on OS X :<
21:41:08 <ehird`> i think that could actually be possible
21:41:34 <ehird`> but of course no way to get a random number in brainfuck (you can get a 'random-looking' number using cellular automata and the like but it's the same on each run)
21:41:41 <ehird`> so it'd spew the same things out over and over
21:42:04 <ehird`> unless... you hashed up all of the data in the hash table (and presumably other used memory) and used it as a seed each time it's updated...
21:42:08 <oklopol> i don't think it matters if the hash table is predictable...
21:42:14 <ehird`> oklopol: no, for a markov chain
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21:47:25 <ehird`> oklopol: what text editor do you use, by the way?
21:50:04 <oklopol> wordpad is almost perfect, occasionally it changes fonts at random, and it doesn't have an option to level text on both ends, but otherwise
21:50:09 <oklopol> vi i've just used a few times.
21:50:21 <ehird`> wordpad doesn't do much
21:50:24 <ehird`> like, say, syntax highlighting.
21:50:35 <jix> http://files.method-missing.org/pics/pic3.jpg << which wire is connected the wrong way
21:50:46 <ehird`> in fact, that's all i really need in a text editor
21:51:02 <jix> oklopol: which blue one?
21:51:04 <ehird`> good search+replace algorithm, reasonable navigation/insertation/deletion keys, and syntax highlihgting
21:51:07 <ehird`> i don't use auto-indent
21:51:11 <oklopol> jix: the one in the middle
21:51:25 <jix> hmm my sound laggs
21:51:33 <oklopol> auto-indent is nice except it usually fails.
21:52:09 <jix> but at least i want auto-indent the next line the same as the current line
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21:53:35 <ehird`> i don't even auto-indent the next line
21:53:48 <ehird`> but my programs rarely go above 3 amounts of indentation
21:53:51 <ehird`> and basically never go over 4
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21:55:50 <Sgeo_> Um.. I hard-reset out of Linux into Windows, tried playing a game in Windows, safe-reset, went back into Linux... and that nick was still alive?
21:56:11 <Sgeo_> It is VERY odd to see your own nick disappear when you're not expecting it
22:00:08 <GregorR> I've seen a message of mine arrive from one nick after I'd already been disconnected, logged in as another nick and started conversing with it.
22:02:34 <oerjan> just as long as it doesn't converse back :D
22:13:51 <oerjan> just as long as it wasn't the brakes
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22:16:30 <ehird`> one interesting thing related to text-generation bots is that some of them can imitate other users
22:16:36 <ehird`> i always wondered what a conversation with myself would be like
22:17:03 <oerjan> just as long as they don't imitate me
22:17:24 <ehird`> i should make one that imitates whoever talks to it :-)
22:27:43 <ehird`> i'm coding one now incidentally
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22:55:13 <ehird`> some people have lives
22:58:13 <GregorR> That's either a smiley representing an extremely deformed man, or a very strange bit of code in a language I don't recognize.
22:58:34 <staplegun> it's runnable until it reches the _
22:59:00 <staplegun> but all it will do is push 0 on the stack twice, add it and then terminate from error
23:00:28 <staplegun> python must be the greatest language ever
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23:14:02 <staplegun> who wants to help me get linux set up :D
23:14:36 <staplegun> just what i expect from a linux community ...
23:14:48 <ehird`> since when is this a linux community
23:30:29 <pikhq> This is the esolang community.
23:30:40 <pikhq> And setting up linux is not that difficult, oddly enough.
23:31:13 <pikhq> I hate to brag, but I first did it when I was 12. . .
23:31:40 <ehird`> pikhq: i first did it earlier than you did! ;)
23:31:53 <ehird`> "youngest person to set up linux" competition, in #esoteric, time: now
23:31:56 <pikhq> ehird`: But which distro was it?
23:32:07 <ehird`> pikhq: i cannot recall right now, i'll give it a think
23:32:24 <ehird`> i can barely set up slackware even now, haha
23:34:14 <GregorR> I was running it in the womb.
23:34:19 <GregorR> I had to port it to human cells first.
23:34:32 <ehird`> lots of hieisenbugs i'd imagine
23:35:05 <GregorR> Well, it's probabilistic, yes, but redundancy allows the probabilities to be >99.99999% in all cases.
23:35:15 <ehird`> did you distribute it?
23:35:44 <GregorR> I couldn't get a consistent Internet connection, and now the plans are lost :(
23:36:02 <ehird`> it's a bitch to get a trans-womb internet connection installed
23:36:06 <ehird`> i should know, i've tried
23:37:26 <GregorR> I think NetBSD runs on it, but I haven't seen a Linux port, no.
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23:37:55 <ehird`> he used chatspeak anyway, no big loss
23:38:08 <GregorR> Apparently the suggestion of ChristBSD was offensive :P
23:38:26 <pikhq> It's not ChristBSD, though. . .
23:38:34 <pikhq> A bit more general. ;)
23:38:46 <ehird`> "It Runs The Universe..." (literally)
23:39:05 <ehird`> gosh imagine the race conditions in universe
23:39:15 <pikhq> The Universe is in Lisp.
23:39:30 <ehird`> no, it was hacked together in perl
23:39:49 <ehird`> [i would say something to the effect of, "points for the reference" but everyone here probably reads xkcd religiously, so.]
23:52:30 <ehird`> "of course, you are not the world. worlds sure are not the world."
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01:06:19 <staplegun> .,,-~~--,, ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...|... ... ,~": : --,,:"~,,-"::::/:,-". . ."'~-,,: \,::::_,,"~-,,
01:06:20 <staplegun> /: : : : : : :"'~-,,... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... |... ... /: : : : :~"'\,: \::__/:|o--,,. . . . .\,: ¯¯: : : : : :"-,
01:06:22 <staplegun> \: : : : : : : : : : :""~,,... ... ... ... ... ... ... |... ... .\: : : : : :,,-"~": : : "'~~-,:"'~-,,_|: : :,-"¯¯¯¯"-,:|
01:06:24 <staplegun> .'~,: : : : : : : : : : : : :"'~-,,_... ... ... ... ...|... ... .."-,_: ,-" : : : : : : : : : : : "~,--~": : (o~--,,_. . |:|
01:06:25 <staplegun> ... ."'~-,,: : : : : : : : : : : : :"-,~--,... ... ... |... ... ... ...,/: : : : : : ,,--,-,~-,,: : :"~-,,: : :"~,___:"-/,/__
01:06:27 <staplegun> ... ... ...,"~"~--,,_,,-~"`"`": : "-,::"'~~--,,_..| ... ... ... ..|: : : ,: :,-". ,-"./. . . ."-,,_: : :"~-~": : : :"'-,,~,:"-,,
01:06:29 <staplegun> ... ... .,/: : : : --,,:|: : : : : : : : :"-,,::::::::::::"~--,,_... ... \: : :|: /. .,/. . |. . . ,-".|. "~,,_____,,,,,__:\: : : : |
01:06:32 <staplegun> ... ... .|: : : : : : : "|: : : : : : :,: : : :\:::::::::::::::::::::"'~~-,,"-,:|: |. /. . . .|. .,-". . |. ,-"'. \. . .,/|. . . .",:\: : ,/
01:06:35 <staplegun> ... ... ..\, : : : : : ,/ : : : : : : :|: : : ,/::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::"\: "-,,___,\,/___,,\/___. |,-". |. . . ,/.|: |,~"
01:06:38 <staplegun> ... ... ... ",-,,,__/: : : : : : :,/,_~"-:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::"-,,____,, : : : : : : : : : "'~,,,/.,,~". ,/: /
01:06:41 <staplegun> ... ... ... /: : : : :"-,,___,,-": : ,"-,-:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::'\: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : "-"__,-":,-"
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01:07:01 <staplegun> ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... .|: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :,-,"::::::::::::::::::::::\
01:07:04 <staplegun> ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... |: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : _,,~"SL'\,::::::::::::::::::::::\
01:07:07 <staplegun> ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... |: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :,,-"... ... ... .\:::::::::::::::::::::::\
01:07:10 <staplegun> ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... |: : : : : : : : : : : :_,,--~"... ... ... ... ...\:::::::::::::::::::::::\
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01:11:59 <staplegun> yes .. god forbit i disrupt your indepth conversation with less than a few kilobytes of data
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05:24:19 <calamari> probably old news, but saw this on slashdot: http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/solution_news.html
05:25:59 <calamari> "Alex Smith is an undergraduate studying Electronic and Computer Engineering at the University of Birmingham, UK. He has a background in mathematics and esoteric programming languages."
05:26:45 <calamari> dunno.. didn't find anything on the wiki with his name, but that doesn't mean much
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05:30:23 <pikhq> Would the real Alex Smith please stand up?
05:31:48 <oklopol> would('ve) be(en) so cool if he were from here
05:33:33 <oklopol> also, i wish i'd joined 15 seconds later
05:34:08 <oklopol> even cooler than these two put together would be if i actually were alex, unfortunately i'm not
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14:35:00 <INTERCAL> foreach (user in channel) do print("Hi!");
14:49:32 <INTERCAL> This program seems bugged. a = 3 + 5; print(a);
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15:50:12 <ais523> pikhq: you were right, the person who solved the 2,3 Turing machine problem is on #esoteric
15:50:30 <ais523> (I'd like to thank whoever it was who put the original prize in the topic and let me know about it in the first place)
15:51:11 * ais523 was logreading and saw people discussing their discovery
15:51:26 <ehird`> wait, was it solved? that wolfram turing machine thing?
15:51:36 * ais523 also realises their gender is now public knowledge, but continues stubbornly using gender-neutral pronouns anyway
15:51:46 <ais523> ehird': see http://wolframprize.org
15:51:50 <ehird`> the person was in #esoteric???????
15:52:23 <ais523> pity I'm in the wrong timezone to have been in either of the conversations about it
15:52:29 <ehird`> I don't know what to say it's amazing
15:52:56 <ais523> if you want proof, just deduce my email address from my IRC username and the facts given in the article, and I'll send you a reply (which the University servers auto-stamp with my real name)
15:54:33 <ehird`> did it involve writing a mapping to brainfuck? ;)
15:55:14 <ais523> no, cyclic tag systems
15:55:40 * ais523 has a client running in an X terminal window on Windows which tends to hang for no apparent reason every now and then
15:56:12 <ehird`> hehe, perhaps a bit simpler ;)
15:57:33 <ehird`> (you're crazy too, btw ;))
15:58:03 <ais523> I'm in #esoteric, so that was so obvious you didn't need to point it out
16:00:36 <ais523> it's a strange feeling, sitting at a computer trying to stop an INTERCAL compiler while you know at any second a journalist might phone and ask questions ranging from informed to inane
16:01:19 <ehird`> so, who's going to write a brainfuck interpreter in it?
16:01:41 <ais523> it runs at a speed worse than two to the two to the number of steps, so I suspect nobody any time soon
16:01:54 <ais523> (at least with the initial condition I used)
16:02:03 <ehird`> YEAH WELL THEORETICAL-LAND HATES YOU TOO :<
16:02:53 <ais523> you'll just have to find a more efficient way to do it. (I suspect there probably is one.)
16:03:23 <ehird`> is there any not-trivial program in cyclic tag systems written?
16:03:30 <ehird`> well, not-trivial = dividing two numbers
16:04:53 <ais523> ...and it seems that it's lament that I have to thank for unwittingly letting me know about the problem in the first place by putting it in the topic
16:05:11 <ehird`> so i guess he gets half the prize money? ;) hahaha
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16:22:35 <ehird`> ais523: you are all over google
16:23:09 <ais523> you have to be careful with the search terms; it's easy to phrase it in such a way that you get people with the same name as me who are not me
16:23:18 <ais523> but there are still quite a lot of results even then
16:23:24 <ehird`> i searched for: wolfram 2 3
16:23:30 <ais523> s/then/if you exclude false positives/
16:23:32 <ehird`> tons on tons of results, near-all have your name
16:23:40 <ais523> ehird`: that's what I would have recommended
16:27:17 <ais523> based on my own Googling attempts
16:28:23 <ehird`> "I just won $25k from Wolfram! Time to see how I'm doing on Google."
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16:33:57 <ais523> every time I've looked back at my IRC terminal I see more comments I can't think of a good response to
16:34:31 <ehird`> ais523: the trials in the life of a computer scientist
16:35:34 <ais523> bsmntbom1dood: my current working version of the C-INTERCAL compiler contains a compiler for a language designed specifically for writing INTERCAL optimizer idioms
16:35:52 <ais523> the compiler is written in yacc, which means in this case yacc is a compiler compiler compiler
16:36:08 <ehird`> ais523: i hope you tell this to the journalists, they need to know what an exciting life you have
16:36:46 <ais523> surprisingly most of them weren't very interested
16:37:06 <ais523> but there are a few esolang references dropped into some of the articles if you look closely enough
16:38:18 <ais523> Wolfram's related blog entry, for instance
16:45:39 <ehird`> "Hey guys good news! I found a polynomial-time algorithm running on this 2,3 Turing machine for an NP-complete problem!" -- person I know
16:46:09 <ehird`> (It's probably funnier first time due to the fact it's on a rather idle post tagged on after "Edit: ")
16:47:10 <ais523> I'd be quite impressed if someone came across an NP-complete problem that could manage that
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16:50:50 <ehird`> "Only God and Chuck Norris can solve the halting problem.
16:50:50 <ehird`> Edit: Also Rudy Giuliani. It turns out that for any input, the answer is 9/11. :/"
16:52:06 <ais523> the neat thing about the Turing machine in question is unlike with most languages, a program that lasts an infinite amount of time has to be infinitely long
16:52:25 <ehird`> wait... doesn't that make it NOT universal?
16:52:32 <ais523> it would be nice if there was a proof which filled space with a simple repeating pattern rather than the complicated nested pattern I used
16:52:33 <ehird`> don't you have to be able to do finite infinite loops?
16:53:01 <ais523> the point is that the initial condition is always derived from a finite original program using a non-Turing-complete-in-itself process
16:54:20 <ais523> if you think about it, all Turing machine initial conditions are infinitely long because the tape itself is infinitely long and you have to specify every element on it
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17:29:14 <lament> setting up the initial conditions themselves can be represented as a program
17:29:19 <lament> and the program will be finite
17:29:42 <lament> the only infinite thing is that the tape starts off as infinite zeros
17:30:00 <ehird`> but hey, you directly caused him to find out about it and then win it
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17:52:48 <ehird`> haha, i haven't read it yet
17:53:04 <lament> i mean your conversation with ais523
17:53:37 <lament> if you want your hard esoteric problem solved - show it to #esoteric people!
17:53:57 <ehird`> LMAO, from earlier today: <pikhq>Oooh. <pikhq>Anyone we know?
17:54:14 <lament> of course, #esoteric avoided all publicity
17:54:27 <lament> maybe we should ask ais523 to mention it somewhere :)
17:54:36 <ehird`> <oklopol>would('ve) be(en) so cool if he were from here
17:55:00 <ehird`> lament: imagine how bad reddit was -- and they're more intelligent than most people, on average -- and multiply it times a few million
17:55:04 <ehird`> lament: do you still want to do that?
17:55:28 <lament> it's not _that_ important a result
17:55:34 <lament> it's probably just the people who read wolfram's blog
17:55:42 <ehird`> he's had newspaper articles, iirc
17:55:43 <lament> which are hopefully much smarter than redditers
17:55:47 <ehird`> (not published yet ofc)
17:55:59 <lament> newspaper articles aren't gonna mention an irc channel, because they don't know what that is
17:56:16 <lament> maybe we could post to lambda the ultimate if he's fine with that
17:56:21 <ehird`> it's really funny, this line:
17:56:24 <ehird`> <ais523>pikhq: you were right, the person who solved the 2,3 Turing machine problem is on #esoteric
17:56:31 <ehird`> i didn't catch on that he meant him until a bit later
17:57:21 <lament> also the redditers thing wasn't that bad in the long run
17:57:32 <lament> the idiots left within a day
17:57:34 <ehird`> it's redditors, just fyi
17:57:54 <ehird`> bsmntbom1dood: ais523 solved it
17:58:28 -!- lament has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | IRP in #irp | Don't spam the channel with EgoBot commands, /query EgoBot | Don't spam the channel with toBogE commands, /join #toboge | Don't spam the channel with bsmnt_bot commands, take him to your own channel. | Congratulations ais523 for winning the Wolfram research prize!.
17:58:33 <ehird`> no, it's evidently possible
17:58:52 <ehird`> anyway: <ais523>if you want proof, just deduce my email address from my IRC username and the facts given in the article, and I'll send you a reply (which the University servers auto-stamp with my real name)
18:00:39 <ehird`> we all know you are ais523 ;)
18:03:10 -!- jix has joined.
18:06:14 <bsmntbom1dood> someone should post something about #esoteric and the prize
18:11:59 <pikhq> That's pretty spiffy.
18:45:37 <lament> i'm sitting on a piano bench!
18:47:54 <oklopol> how many pianists do we have here?
18:48:14 <lament> i'm not a pianist, i'm a musician.
18:48:26 <oklopol> well yeah, i'm more of a general musician myself
18:49:33 <pikhq> Well, there's Gregor. . .
18:50:43 <oklopol> that would be a small percentage
19:00:07 <pikhq> ... Is everyone in here a musician? XD
19:01:04 <lament> you have a 3-day grace period to learn to play some instrument
19:01:16 <ehird`> I can play the kazoo...
19:04:13 <pikhq> It doesn't even have to be a complex instrument. . .
19:04:27 <ehird`> i can make random whines on the theremin?
19:04:34 <pikhq> Stallman, for example, sings (nasally) and plays the recorder (can't comment on quality)
19:04:48 <ehird`> stallman is a crazy hobo though.
19:04:50 <pikhq> Learn the theremin. . . We could use a theremin for the Esoteric Ensemble. :p
19:04:53 <ehird`> I'm not. I don't think.
19:05:04 <ehird`> i actually have a theremin
19:05:12 <ehird`> i thought it would be awesome until i realised i suck at anything musical
19:05:32 <lament> i think theremins kinda suck, but that's really cool if you actually have one
19:07:19 <ehird`> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mW0B1sipLBI the formal proof that theremins are awesome
19:08:39 * SimonRC just thought of a great math trick
19:08:58 <SimonRC> I just realised how to measure the area of an arbitrary polygon
19:09:13 <SimonRC> you pick some point way outside the polygon
19:09:33 <SimonRC> then, procede round the polygon's edges
19:09:50 <SimonRC> outside the convex hull, or whatever it's called
19:10:45 <SimonRC> consider the area defined by your point and each edge, which is a triangle...
19:11:32 <SimonRC> if you calculate the ares of all the triangles, then add all the ones from edges that went "left" and subtract all the ones from edges that went "right", you have the area of the polygon!
19:12:16 <SimonRC> the point you are measuring from can be a corner of the bounding box, for example
19:12:36 <SimonRC> and the are of the triangles is given by the cosine rule, I think
19:12:55 <SimonRC> in fact, you may be able to use any point outside the polygon, but I can't be sure
19:14:13 <SimonRC> maybe even points inside the polygon work...
19:16:12 <SimonRC> oh, wait, the area of the triangles can be found without the cosine rule
19:18:52 <ehird`> who wants a random .signature-C challenge?
19:19:27 <lament> is the prize a theremin?
19:19:41 <ehird`> probably not, i like my theremin :P
19:20:43 <ehird`> but the challenge is: generate the sierpinski triangle (in 4 lines or less of C, no standard compliance required - gcc hacks allowed), and print it out in ascii (any size, really... the bigger the better, because you can get more detail. I'd say something like ~200x200)
19:20:49 <ehird`> you must do it with this method:
19:21:01 <ehird`> 1. Take 3 points in a plane, and form a triangle 2. Randomly select any point inside the triangle and move half the distance from that point to any of the 3 vertex points. 3. Plot the current position. Repeat from step 2.
19:21:12 <ehird`> you'll need a lot of iterations of course
19:23:22 <SimonRC> I am getting a funny result here...
19:23:50 <SimonRC> If you ahve a triangle inside a bouunding rectangle...
19:24:05 <SimonRC> suppose that it has one corner at 0,0
19:24:38 <SimonRC> the other corners are at (w,x) and (h,y), so the bounding box has size w wide by h high...
19:24:58 <SimonRC> the are of the triangle seems to be (wh-xy)/2
19:26:24 <SimonRC> (I got this by assuming that w=h=1 initially, then rescaling
19:27:06 <lament> calling a y-coordinate "x" is possibly the most confusing thing ever.
19:27:25 <lament> i suppose you actually mean the coordinates are (w,y) and (x,h)?
19:27:51 <SimonRC> yeah, I meant the corners are (w, y) and (x, h), I think....
19:28:32 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:36:28 <SimonRC> oops, I now realise that there are some triangles that won't work for
19:36:49 <jix> anyone knows alex smith?
19:37:08 <jix> alex smith
19:37:15 <jix> http://blog.wolfram.com/2007/10/the_prize_is_won_the_simplest.html
19:37:34 <jix> But at 20:53:59 GMT on Saturday, June 30--just 47 days after we announced the prize--we received a submission, with the description of the submitter given as "Alex Smith is an undergraduate studying Electronic and Computer Engineering at the University of Birmingham, UK. He has a background in mathematics and esoteric programming languages."
19:39:16 <oerjan> jix: read the logs for today :D
19:39:44 <jix> ah cool :)
19:44:49 -!- Arrogant has joined.
19:45:07 -!- RedDak has joined.
19:48:00 <jix> today is a great day :)
19:48:19 * GregorR stabs jix and steals his happy.
19:49:12 <jix> my doom cart arrived in UK (and is on the way to me), we got 1000eur for our robot team, and i think it's really cool that someone from here solved that problem
19:50:03 <Arrogant> I wish I had a robot that could play Doom
19:50:27 <jix> nah the doom cart and the robot stuff is completely unrelated
19:51:36 <SimonRC> duh, I could just applythe method I just rediscovered in the difficult case
19:59:05 * pikhq always feels smart here
19:59:09 <oklopol> well, anywhere else too, except for programming..
20:01:35 <oerjan> this is extremely annoying. now i'll have to solve the P vs. NP problem just to stay in the pecking order here...
20:02:14 <oklopol> what if i do that tonight just to annoy ya?
20:02:16 <jix> is there a prize for the collatz problem?
20:04:22 <oerjan> hm, nothing listed on the wikipedia page
20:04:38 <oklopol> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CollatzProblem.html
20:06:59 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
20:07:09 -!- jix has joined.
20:08:34 * oerjan wonders if David Morgan-Mar has ever been on the channel. But i guess his esoteric language days were in the past.
20:09:24 <SimonRC> I know Edwin Brady, and he has been here.
20:09:28 <oerjan> the author of Irregular Webcomic, and also Chef
20:09:47 <SimonRC> or should that be: Edwin " \t\n" Brady
20:12:33 * ehird` is parsing the whole of the brown corpus into his markov chain
20:12:37 <ehird`> and now it's gone again
20:13:20 <ehird`> something must be awfully odd at
20:13:49 <ehird`> lines 32000 to lines 33000
20:13:53 <ehird`> because it is lagging on them
20:14:32 <oerjan> ehird`: did my ping automatically move you into a message window? o_O
20:14:49 <ehird`> (i would not use it if i was not on windows beyond my control right now)
20:14:56 <SimonRC> if the point on the triangle are (0,0), (x1,y2), and (x2, y2), the area is (x1*y2 - x2*y1)/2
20:15:05 <SimonRC> for any arrangement of points
20:16:33 <jix> i know someone who knows someone who knows mandelbrot
20:17:32 <oerjan> but is that knowledge self-similar?
20:17:41 <ehird`> SimonRC: not '', but ..
20:17:45 <ehird`> (windows retarded keymap, sorry)
20:18:16 <SimonRC> "LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH DOUBLE ACCUTE"
20:18:28 <ehird`> it's Godel with an umlaut
20:18:37 <jix> and by the first know i'm talking about my previous math teacher and a good friend of mine
20:18:39 * ehird` is watching his markov chain-erator go
20:18:45 <SimonRC> no, it's a double-acute, not a double-dot
20:18:55 <ehird`> SimonRC: that is not how godel is spelled
20:18:59 <oerjan> not double acute, that would be Erdos
20:19:59 <oerjan> godel-numbers are something _quite_ different from erdos-numbers
20:20:19 <ehird`> my godel-number is somewhere in the reigon of 34872398723423!
20:20:24 <ehird`> so is my erdos-number, incidentally!
20:20:48 <oerjan> ehird`: you've never written a collaboratory paper?
20:21:01 <jix> the 2nd person in that row is heinz-otto peitgen ... the doktorvater(??) of my previous math teacher
20:21:19 <oerjan> i don't quite recall my erdos-number but i think it was around 5-6
20:21:31 <ehird`> yow, i have something close to exponential time increase per line
20:21:43 <ehird`> because the table gets bigger every time
20:21:48 <ehird`> there's a bigger table to check in
20:22:03 <jix> and he runs the company my previous math teacher works at now
20:22:36 <SimonRC> ooh: http://mathcentral.uregina.ca/QQ/database/QQ.09.98/tyler1.html
20:22:40 <ehird`> why is the brown corpus so damn big? ;)
20:25:13 <SimonRC> ehird`: what is this thing?
20:25:37 <ehird`> i'm feeding the brown corpus into my markov chain generator
20:25:47 <ehird`> the brown corpus is, basically, a shitload of american english text
20:26:03 <ehird`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Corpus
20:26:35 <ehird`> i just found a plaintext version
20:26:38 <ehird`> and am feeding it through
20:27:41 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:28:53 -!- ehird` has joined.
20:34:08 * ehird` just does the first 5000 for now :P
20:37:41 <ehird`> damn, my program is slow
20:52:46 <ehird`> i'll just try 500 lines
20:55:38 <ehird`> "I'm willing to stake my political career goes back to his election to city council in 1923."
20:55:42 <ehird`> the first thing it produced
21:03:50 <ehird`> my markov chain produces intelligable stuff!
21:06:08 <ehird`> some text it's produced (i think the brown corpus starts with political stuff, so that'd explain these):
21:06:08 <ehird`> "Sam Caldwell, State Highway Department public relations director, resigned Tuesday to work for Lt. Gov. Garland Byrd's campaign."
21:06:19 <ehird`> "I didn't smell a drop of liquor, and we didn't have a son, William Berry Jr., and a doctor, medical intern or extern be employed at the State Welfare Department's handling of federal funds granted for child welfare services in foster homes."
21:06:19 <Arrogant> it'll probably spit out a 3-page-long improvised speech given at a party with no provocation
21:06:51 <Arrogant> Okay that last one doesn't quite work
21:07:12 <oklopol> neither means anything, really
21:07:39 <oklopol> unless you can "stake" an even
21:07:54 <ehird`> "I'm willing to stake my political career goes back to his election to city council in 1923." makes perfect sense
21:08:12 <ehird`> it effectively means "I'm willing to bet that my political career goes back to his election to city council in 1923."
21:08:19 <ehird`> anyway, oklopol, your bot was worse
21:08:21 <oklopol> so you can "stake" an event
21:08:47 <ehird`> also, mine is a second-order markov chain
21:09:07 <ehird`> yours maps word=>(next,next...), correct?
21:09:25 <ehird`> second order chains map (word1,word2)=>(next,next...)
21:09:29 <ehird`> "hello world abc" would be
21:09:55 <ehird`> it makes it a lot more intelligable, and doesn't increase the parroting much
21:10:04 <oklopol> yeah, plagiarizing a bit more will produce a bit better text, but that's no real enhancement
21:10:15 <oklopol> there's nothing fundamentally better there
21:10:17 <ehird`> it is a dramatic improvement
21:10:22 <ehird`> everything >2 parrots far too much
21:10:28 <ehird`> everything <2 (well, 1) produces garbage
21:10:31 <ehird`> but 2 produces semi-coherent text
21:11:29 <Arrogant> what's the use of making these chains, anyway?
21:11:39 <oklopol> doubt a "first-order" chain would produce any less coherent stuff given that input.
21:11:43 <ehird`> what's the use of using esoteric languages, Arrogant? :)
21:11:49 <oklopol> Arrogant: there's no use, ever
21:11:56 <ehird`> oklopol: prove me wrong
21:12:22 <ehird`> feed the first 499 (NOTE: not all of it) of http://dingo.sbs.arizona.edu/~hammond/ling696f-sp03/browncorpus.txt to your markov chain generator
21:12:28 <ehird`> make sure to do it line-by-line not all at once
21:12:35 <ehird`> then produce some text
21:12:59 <oklopol> you didn't time your program yesterday, so i'm not gonnado this ;)
21:13:30 <ehird`> but fine, you're wrong anyway (sheesh, what a childish reason to stop the proving that markov order-2 chains are better)
21:14:01 <oklopol> the real reason is i don't care
21:14:17 <oklopol> markov chains are too trivial to be interesting
21:14:26 <ehird`> so what do you suggest instead?
21:14:43 <oklopol> i suggest we drop the subject :D
21:15:01 <ehird`> no, really, what do you suggest instead of markov chains?
21:16:08 <oklopol> waiting for someone to invent something that works?
21:16:41 <ehird`> "markov chains are too trivial! i won't use them.
21:16:41 <ehird`> i'm just waiting for someone to invent something TOTALLY AWESOME"
21:17:04 <oklopol> err... what's funny about not thinking markov chains are interesting?
21:17:25 <ehird`> because you call them "trivial" yet state you are waiting for someone to invent something less trivial
21:17:33 <ehird`> if they're the least-trivial thing out there, then they're hardly trivial
21:17:55 <oklopol> i'm saying if you insist on getting something better, just wait; i've never claimed to be at all interested in making good parrots
21:18:40 <oklopol> and why the fuck would i need to think markov chains are interesting just because they're the best we've got?
21:19:02 <oklopol> if they're trivial, they're not interesting
21:19:18 <oklopol> since there's nothing interesting you can do with them
21:20:11 <ehird`> i was talking in the context of making parrots
21:20:20 <ehird`> i didn't say anything about you in particular being interested in them
21:21:02 <oklopol> i just said i don't wanna do the test, because i didn't see a reason to do that
21:21:16 <ehird`> meh, whatever, i'm going to ask in #lojban
21:21:25 <ehird`> about my generate-and-filter idea
21:31:19 <lament> what's so special about markov chains?
21:32:08 <lament> they're neither the most trivial predictive model, nor the most interesting one
21:32:19 <ehird`> what's the most trivial then?
21:32:24 -!- Arrogant has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:32:49 <lament> bag of words model is simpler
21:32:51 <oklopol> you can't think of anything simpler than a markov chain? :P
21:33:05 <ehird`> well, pick random word, repeat
21:33:09 <ehird`> but apart from that? no
21:33:10 <oklopol> random line noise is simpler
21:33:42 <ehird`> that's not a predictive model, though
21:33:52 <lament> ehird`: i actually study this at university at the moment
21:34:15 <lament> ehird`: the simplest model, given some data, would be to pick the most common word in the data and always produce that
21:34:47 <oerjan> i think it would be even simpler to pick the first word
21:35:02 <ehird`> if so, that's... trivial, but uh how shall i put this
21:35:11 <ehird`> what's something trivial that doesn't involve repeating yourself over and over?
21:35:36 <lament> pick a random word, preferrably with a probability distribution influenced by what you see in the data.
21:36:22 <ehird`> so, "hello world hello" -> "hello hello world world hello hello hello hello world hello world world"?
21:36:31 <ehird`> ok, the next step up in triviality from that
21:37:13 <lament> well, this is as far as you can get with words being considered independent
21:37:30 <lament> so the next step would be to consider them in relationship to one another
21:37:37 <ehird`> which brings you to markov chains?
21:37:54 <ehird`> what about one step up in triviality from markov chains (of all orders)
21:38:53 <lament> i don't know, is there anything more complex than a markov chain of infinite order?
21:39:10 <lament> i would think not, you'd just never get enough data to train it
21:39:36 <lament> that's not joking, you can't just combine markov chains of different orders like that :)
21:39:56 <oklopol> lament: you can make it better by also introducing the concept of "topics"
21:39:56 <ehird`> if you pretend markov chains don't exist
21:40:02 <lament> but i think the next step is just optimizations
21:40:09 <lament> like topics, teaching it the english grammar, etc
21:40:37 <lament> (if you know it's english and there're topics, which doesn't have to be the case)
21:41:05 <lament> ehird`: a markov chain is just a particular kind of a dependence graph
21:41:20 <oklopol> hmm... wonder if it could ever find any meaning for anything given just the irc interface
21:41:26 <lament> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_network
21:41:34 <oklopol> i mean, in theory, given a perfect ai
21:41:49 <oklopol> we already know that's possible with full world interaction
21:41:58 <oklopol> but irc just has ops, kicks and privmsg's
21:41:59 <lament> ehird`: read that article and consider how markov chains tie in :)
21:42:05 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:42:16 <oklopol> "nah, i don't feel like it"
21:42:34 -!- ehird` has joined.
21:42:41 <ehird`> i missed the last few messages
21:42:45 <lament> ehird`: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_network
21:43:03 <lament> that article is way too technical and messy and doesn't have enough pictures
21:43:31 <ehird`> anything else? maybe something that doesn't make my head hurt? :-)
21:43:46 <ehird`> (Maybe even something I could have a go at implementing, heh.)
21:44:25 <ehird`> certainly, something that doesn't say "im" ;)
21:45:45 <ehird`> well let's put it this way
21:45:52 <ehird`> i highly doubt i could implement a bayesian network
21:46:15 <lament> a markov chain is a bayesian network that looks like this
21:46:33 <ehird`> i use a 2nd-order markov chain
21:46:36 <ehird`> what does it look like then?
21:46:47 <ehird`> (more importantly what's another example of a bayesian network)
21:47:00 <lament> harder to draw, w1 now has an arrow to w3, etc
21:47:39 <lament> a->b just means "b depends on a"
21:47:41 <ehird`> ok so i'm not exactly sure of the implications
21:49:05 <lament> your knowledge of w2 is influenced by the knowledge of w1
21:49:20 <lament> and, since there're no more arrows in the 1st order graph, nothing else
21:49:36 <oklopol> lament: isn't that just what a 2nd order markov chain is?
21:49:39 <lament> so it's some kind of a probability distribution with one parameter
21:49:49 <lament> and for a 2nd order chain, two parameters
21:51:22 <lament> and for an infinite order chain, infinitely many parameters, so you can't really get any more complex
21:51:40 <ehird`> so bayesian network is basically a markov chain
21:51:45 <ehird`> is there anything really seperate?
21:51:58 <lament> wow, i really suck at explaining this.
21:52:48 <oklopol> well, blowjob is a blowjob
21:53:34 -!- bsmntbom1dood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
21:53:47 <oklopol> python has really killed my brain
21:54:34 <lament> bsmntbombdood: there's always the first tiem
21:54:40 <oklopol> doing C is hard when everything that requires manual memory allocation seems too complicated to be a good solution...
21:55:01 <ehird`> for simple programs you don't need malloc, oklopol
21:55:07 <ehird`> just choose some fixed size and make an array of it
21:55:56 <oklopol> but yeah, that's what i'm doing for the first version
21:56:14 <ehird`> nobody. has. done. my. sierpinski challenge
21:56:30 <oklopol> also, all the time i'm trying to use C++ stuff :P
21:56:35 <oklopol> then i realize i decided not to
22:00:13 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: yeah, we need to do something about your bad sucking capabilities, lament's experience will be most helpful
22:02:14 <oklopol> well yeah, but it's actually quite hard getting the ...whatsit open
22:02:24 <oklopol> you might puke without training
22:03:27 <oklopol> i already have a small orgy planned for the weekend, actually
22:03:53 <lament> that's disgusting, young man
22:04:39 <oklopol> the least disgusting number of people
22:06:12 <oklopol> well, there's wankfest, sex, threeway, fourway... orgy
22:06:25 <oklopol> you might say there's a least weird one there
22:06:48 <oklopol> hehe, -fest always makes me laugh
22:06:51 <lament> you skipped "sanity", right after "fourway"
22:07:27 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:07:42 <oklopol> wankfest, sex, threeway, fourway, sanity... orgy
22:10:37 <oklopol> that should be the motto of our orgy
22:13:02 <oklopol> ARE YOU STEALING MY TIMES?
22:13:39 <oklopol> hmm, perhaps i should eat a pizza ->
22:15:12 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
22:17:19 <ehird`> with knuth's literate programming system iirc
22:26:22 -!- SimonRC has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:26:27 -!- SimonRC has joined.
22:31:44 <ehird`> i think the root of things like text generation
22:32:17 <ehird`> "produce something that looks like it could be in set S"
22:32:41 <ehird`> Maybe Sim(S,C) where C(a,b) is a function for ranking (from 0 to 1, say) how similar a and b are
22:32:56 <ehird`> of course it'll be very hard to figure out an algorithm for Sim that works pretty well, even more so for C
22:34:52 <ehird`> Unless, of course, there's some new development i'm unaware of?
22:41:56 <ehird`> Sim brute forcing isn't very nice, though
22:42:05 <ehird`> Especially if you're generating nonsense text or the like
22:42:36 <ehird`> (levenshtein distance wouldn't work very well, because it's the more "mechanical" kind of "simularity" - you wouldn't get "new" text like e.g. markov chains)
22:43:07 <bsmntbombdood> i want to know how google's translate agorithm works
22:43:24 <ehird`> you can also suggest a translation
22:43:37 <ehird`> (which is why a while back "sarkozy sarkozy sarkozy" translated to "Cheney defends Bush")
22:45:00 <ehird`> if anyone produces an algorithm (without hand-waving) for Sim and C, i would be mightily impressed (that is if it actually worked ;))
22:45:42 <ehird`> oklopol: google.com/translate_t it's the best machine translation out there basically [it still sucks]
22:45:48 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: of course a perfect Sim and C would be AI
22:46:26 <oklopol> i kill cows -> Ich tten Khe
22:46:33 <oklopol> i need no further testing...
22:46:53 <ehird`> try translating a foreign language article to english, you can make out what they're saying most of the time
22:47:20 <oklopol> it's just wrong... form of the verb
22:47:57 <oklopol> also, oerjan, don't know everything!
22:48:33 <oklopol> yeah, but that such a simple thing... it's always ich + {verb}e
22:48:48 <ehird`> it's neural-net or similar-based, though
22:48:56 <ehird`> you don't just tell it something mechanical
22:49:04 <ehird`> you teach it over time, like neural nets
22:49:33 <ehird`> blame the whole world, for misteaching it
22:50:55 <oklopol> i apologize to anyone not a part of this world!
22:51:02 <oklopol> hmm, i'd better do some sleeping -
22:51:59 <oklopol> i've actually been having them again
22:52:08 <oklopol> like last night, i dremt i was in my friends room
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22:52:24 <oklopol> and i knew i only hard 50 seconds before it would burst into flames and i'd die
22:52:41 <oklopol> so i thought "i'll pee on the floor"
22:52:49 <oklopol> (no, didn't wet my bed ;))
22:53:02 <oklopol> that was so absurd, i lolled my ass off when i woke up
22:53:34 <oklopol> think, you're about to die, and the first thing that pops to mind is "i'll ruin my friends carpet, mwahaha"
22:53:53 <oklopol> okay, that may not have been a good example
22:54:12 <oklopol> it was gonna be like 5000 degrees
22:54:17 <oklopol> instant kill, and i knew that
22:54:42 <oklopol> i just wanted to pee on the floor, because no one could blame me for anything
22:55:07 <oklopol> was also interesting when i actually died, but that's hard to explain really
22:55:45 <oklopol> hmm, no i feel bad for wanting to sleep
22:56:01 <ehird`> my dreams are so naive
22:56:04 <bsmntbombdood> i was thinking you could hide flammable liquids in your bladder
22:56:05 <ehird`> dying just makes them go black
22:56:25 <oklopol> well, most people wake up when they die
22:56:35 <oklopol> i did too, but i woke up in another dream
22:56:45 <ehird`> i wake up but only after a second or so of black
22:56:50 <bsmntbombdood> the half-dreams where you fall and then when you hit the ground and jerk irl are cool
22:57:39 <bsmntbombdood> when you're half asleep, just before really falling asleep
22:57:43 <oklopol> yeah, but i've had dreams where i fall from a mountain top, and through concrete, and i can't breath
22:58:08 <ehird`> one of my fears is finding myself inside a solid object
22:58:19 <ehird`> but actually completely immersed in a solid object
22:58:25 <ehird`> like, say, an FPS with noclip on
22:58:33 <oklopol> one time i had a dream my hand was carved empty, and when i woke up, for a moment i actually hallucinated it really was
22:59:04 <oklopol> almost all these great dreams occurred about 2 years ago when i didn't sleep nearly at all
22:59:15 <oklopol> guess i should start sleeping less again
22:59:15 <ehird`> also, another of my fears is reality's texture mapping fucking up and me suddenly finding myself pasted onto the floor
23:00:04 <ehird`> like, the texture of my body, would be mapped onto the floor instead
23:00:09 <ehird`> you'd like, feel the floor
23:00:14 <ehird`> because you'd be the floor
23:00:22 <ehird`> and all objects would morph in size and have textures mapped on
23:01:09 <oklopol> hmm, i'll really go now, i already slept through one school day this week
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23:22:37 <ehird`> anyone want to write that sierpinski program challenge?
23:29:38 <pikhq> Wait for Oerjan to return. . .
23:29:48 <pikhq> And then our Norwegian friend can help you. ;)
23:30:06 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.itavisen.no/sak/493810/-___Norge_f%E5r_OiNK-__sak/
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04:02:11 <pikhq> I've had a Volkswagen Bug try to eat my in one of my dreams.
04:02:38 <RodgerTheGreat> I had a really creepy one where I was basically pulling the muscles and tendons out of my hand, and another one involving teeth
04:03:37 <RodgerTheGreat> in retrospect, dreams are rarely if ever anatomically correct, but it doesn't make it any less creepy
04:04:33 <pikhq> Why the hell would a VW Bug have teeth?
04:05:51 <RodgerTheGreat> something about staring at your crumpled up hand and just knowing it's nothing but skin over bone, seeping blood out of the cuticles... and then you wake up.
04:32:47 <pikhq> For me, it's more like 0.0001% of the time.
04:33:05 <pikhq> That dream was from when I was about 5. . . And it's the last dream I remember, I think.
04:34:31 <bsmntbombdood> the other day i had a dream in one of the old recurring settigns!
04:35:57 <RodgerTheGreat> I've thought about dream interpretation from time to time, but I've found I can generally explain my dreams when taking into account the events of the past few days and what was on my mind when I went to sleep
04:36:29 <RodgerTheGreat> it's like a jumbled-up version of your recent memories, stitched into something that appears coherent at the surface level
04:37:33 <RodgerTheGreat> Another thought has occurred to me- are dreams just an artifact of our brain's natural garbage-collection and memory storage processes, or do dreams themselves have an evolutionary benefit?
04:38:56 <RodgerTheGreat> Perhaps their ability to provide insight into new approaches to problems by separating ideas from context is a reason for their existence?
04:38:56 <bsmntbombdood> i don't think dreams would be an artifact of garbage collection
04:39:00 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: I'd say that the evolutionary benefit *is* the garbage-collection.
04:39:32 <bsmntbombdood> so many people don't remember their dreams i would say they have no purpose
04:39:56 <bsmntbombdood> and no evolutionary disadvantages, so no reason to not have them
04:45:34 <RodgerTheGreat> Maybe it's more difficult to defrag recent memories *without* causing dreams as a side-effect, so the mechanisms that usually cause people to forget dreams act as some kind of patch to that behavior?
04:46:29 <bsmntbombdood> wouldn't it be better just to turn off the visual part of your brain?
04:46:44 <RodgerTheGreat> nature is best at making ugly hacks first, and then slowly smoothing out the rough edges
04:48:04 <RodgerTheGreat> current knowledge of the brain suggests that there isn't a really convenient way to shut off all sensory input (which would really involve shutting down *consciousness*) without some tricky biochemical footwork
04:51:58 <lament> consciousness is a sensory input?
04:52:56 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Technically, *sleep* is a loss of consciousness.
04:53:30 <RodgerTheGreat> memory and consciousness are intertwined in very interesting ways
04:54:45 <bsmntbombdood> it's hard to argue about the physical aspects of the brain without large research
04:56:11 <pikhq> It's hard to argue about the physical aspects of the brain with large research.
04:56:36 <bsmntbombdood> it's hard to argue about the physical aspects of the brain
04:57:40 <RodgerTheGreat> it's hard to research the brain when we can only make coarse and minimally invasive observations. It'd be like trying to understand how a computer works by dissecting casio watches and looking over someone's shoulders as they typed letters in a word processor.
05:35:56 <lament> actually i think it would be exactly like understanding how a modern CPU works, with any tools available.
05:36:08 <lament> (given that you don't have any knowledge of CPU design)
05:36:39 <lament> it's hard to reverse-engineer something so complex.
06:28:32 <oklopol> i've heard the human brain is more complex than a computer
06:29:20 <oklopol> to be honest, i don't really believe that
06:29:38 <oklopol> i gotta leave, just 1 hour late! ->
06:38:42 <oklopol> 1 minutes till next one :O
06:42:25 <oklopol> good and bad news: 1. i *would've* been on time for the bus 2. i realized i owe a teacher 25 euros and had to come back
06:44:26 <oklopol> if i miss the next one, this is code day.
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11:38:59 <oklopol> when drawing a wire that snaps into a grid, and only straight lines between adjacent points are possible (just directions NWSE), if the mouse moves say 5 points x-wise (say east), and 2 y-wise (say north), what should the resulting line be like? i first had EEEEENN, now i have EEENENE; or would it perhaps be better if it was as straight as possible?
11:39:13 <oklopol> this of course is a marginal case, since usually you wanna draw the wires sowlky.
11:40:00 <oklopol> (EEENENE is the easiest to make ;))
11:42:47 <oklopol> hmm... most of you may be sleeping.
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16:54:11 <oklopol> i also owed a friend 30 euros, and had to pay 20 for an amplifier
16:54:24 <oklopol> this has been an expensive day.
16:56:40 <lifthrasiir> occasionally i have some friends says let us have some lunch or dinner. such a day is quite expensive...
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18:38:16 <ehird`> lolcode isn't functional...
18:38:21 <ehird`> oh, wait, it means 'working' in this context
18:38:24 <ehird`> i forgot boingboing was for retards
18:38:41 <ehird`> and it's obviously turing complete
18:51:31 <oklopol> lifthrasiir: what did you use to be?
18:54:29 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: that norwegian article was about the Dutch/British closing of some OiNK network, and interviewed some norwegian lawyer for record and movie companies claiming there will soon be a similar crackdown in norway. He refused to say which network, although the article speculates that OiNK information will be provided by the british police to the norwegian one.
18:55:35 <oerjan> sounds me like the usual blather of journalists trying to bring a local perspective on an international case.
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19:35:41 <bsmntbombdood> oerjan: did they say anything about oink's database encryption or somesuch?
19:44:36 <oerjan> "according to a source tipping It-Avisen the OiNK member lists were encrypted to start with, and additionally equipped with a self-destruct mechanism triggering deletion unless they received a certain signal within a given time"
19:47:12 <oklopol> omg just like in the movies
19:53:20 <ehird`> this member list will self distruct in 10 minutes
19:54:08 <oklopol> i'd love to have something like that, the problem is i'd lose my files quite quickly...
19:54:32 * oerjan wonders if the OiNK people were up-to-date with the Evil Overlord list
19:57:24 <oerjan> "I will not include a self-destruct mechanism unless absolutely necessary. If it is necessary, it will not be a large red button labelled "Danger: Do Not Push". The big red button marked "Do Not Push" will instead trigger a spray of bullets on anyone stupid enough to disregard it. Similarly, the ON/OFF switch will not clearly be labelled as such."
19:59:17 <bsmntbombdood> "When I've captured my adversary and he says, "Look, before you kill me, will you at least tell me what this is all about?" I'll say, "No." and shoot him. No, on second thought I'll shoot him then say "No.""
19:59:56 <GregorR> Needless dramatic pause leads to captured prisoner getting away? :)
20:00:16 <GregorR> Two people point a gun at each other, looking dr--BANG. Oh, well that was resolved easily.
20:00:21 <bsmntbombdood> yep, and it has the desirable side effect of explaining the plot
20:00:23 <oklopol> they should at least shoot the legs before explaining
20:03:57 <ehird`> "Now you shall be subjected to the worst death ever! It will involve: 1. a long explanation that I will tell you while you manage to escape 2. a long, drawn out, pointless death that would be trivial to escape from anyway"
20:05:12 <SimonRC> "Mr Bond. Now that the sedative is wearing off, the feeling should start coming back in the whole of your body except your left leg." // "Why not my leg leg?"
20:06:22 <SimonRC> Just an idea that future villains will fail to follow
20:06:36 <SimonRC> not out of an actual movie, like duh
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20:12:57 <bsmntbombdood> "If I'm eating dinner with the hero, put poison in his goblet, then have to leave the table for any reason, I will order new drinks for both of us instead of trying to decide whether or not to switch with him."
20:13:11 <bsmntbombdood> why are you having dinner with the hero instead of killing him?
20:26:42 <oklopol> i still don't use whitespace, but i gotta admit i find my old codes even too obscure to understand myself
20:26:48 <oklopol> void line(V a,V b,long c){if(a.x>XSZ&&b.x>XSZ)return;if(a.y>YSZ&&b.y>YSZ)return;if(a.x<0&&b.x<0)return;if(a.y<0&&b.y<0)return;if(abs(b.x-a.x)>abs(b.y-a.y)){if(a.x>b.x){double tmp=a.x;a.x=b.x;b.x=tmp;tmp=a.y;a.y=b.y;b.y=tmp;}double rat=(b.y-a.y)/(b.x-a.x);while(a.x<=b.x){pset((int)a.x,(int)a.y,c);a.y+=rat;a.x+=1;}}else{if(a.y>b.y){double tmp=a.x;a.x=b.x;b.x=tmp;tmp=a.y;a.y=b.y;b.y=tmp;}double rat=(b.x-a.x)/(b.y-a.y);while(a.y<=b.y){pset((int)a.x,(int)a.y,c)
20:27:31 <oklopol> the algorithm is trivial, and not a good one; and there was no linefeed :D
20:27:37 <oklopol> i don't think i even had it when i debugged
20:27:57 <ehird`> what the heck does that do
20:28:34 <oklopol> that code doesn't specify it.
20:28:50 <SimonRC> pset is the QBASIC name for the pixel-set function
20:29:01 <SimonRC> and other BASICs, I presume
20:29:13 <SimonRC> well one might ahve been named after the other
20:29:23 <ehird`> oklopol: that's... interesting
20:29:33 <SimonRC> oklopol: well, obviously, otherwise ou wouldn't exist
20:29:44 <oklopol> yeah yeah, anyway, he left now
20:30:09 <oklopol> so... why do you wanna see pset? that just calls pset for the dots that would exist on a line between a and b, where a and b are vectors
20:30:22 <oklopol> using the "color" c as the third param
20:30:47 <SimonRC> wait, why would your father being around change anything?
20:31:00 <ehird`> he doesn't want him to see his porn-irc client
20:31:04 <oklopol> i can't irc when my father starts asking me what i'm doing...
20:31:25 <ehird`> SimonRC: i think every father does
20:31:31 <oklopol> doing one thing at a time is for insects
20:31:44 <SimonRC> no, it is fore normal people
20:32:06 <SimonRC> real geeks can concentrate on a task so much they forget to breath
20:32:14 <ehird`> "Writing code to interface with the BIOS for my hobby OS and improving my irc client."
20:32:32 <ehird`> (note: i have not actually tested the above)
20:32:46 <oklopol> i guess. i can actually irc and talk at the same time, in normal situations, but that was too complex a thought to express while talking irl at the same time
20:32:56 <oklopol> even though it was not that complex
20:33:09 <oklopol> i guess was for the normal people thing
20:33:14 <SimonRC> Did I tell you I was doing some Forth experimenting?
20:33:41 <ehird`> did you write a forth in brainfuck? :)
20:33:53 <oklopol> ehird`: my father knows more about bios than me
20:34:07 <ehird`> SimonRC: ok, what di dyou do then :P
20:34:20 <oklopol> when it comes to computers, i just own him at coding (which was his job for 20 years...)
20:35:17 <SimonRC> I just threw together a small VM
20:35:37 <SimonRC> it has a stack, a control stack, and main memory
20:35:44 <ehird`> hey, that's not forth-y :(
20:35:51 <ehird`> real forths access the system directly :|
20:36:07 <ehird`> none of this vm crap! ;p
20:36:11 <SimonRC> well I didn't have a compiler that could do that
20:36:17 <SimonRC> it is a very minimalist VM
20:36:47 <SimonRC> I am still assembling things by hand though
20:36:56 <ehird`> http://www.annexia.org/_file/jonesforth.s.txt very short gnu as forth system, comes with a tutorial which explains how it's done in great detail
20:37:06 <ehird`> also, SimonRC, the stack is meant to go in main memory. :-)
20:37:41 <SimonRC> well I didn't have net access at the time
20:37:54 <ehird`> still, jonesforth is worth a read
20:37:55 <SimonRC> And I am still editing it in numbers, which is leet
20:37:57 <ehird`> it's really eye-opening
20:38:14 <SimonRC> "1, 48, 60, 102, 22" <-- that is printdigit
20:38:45 <ehird`> it uses handy gnu as tricks like, oh, being able to do:
20:38:55 <ehird`> and refer to it as name
20:39:09 <ehird`> still as low level, not as hyper-1337-oh-wait-what-does-that-number-mean-again ;)
20:40:14 <SimonRC> the only conditional I have is ?:
20:40:25 <ehird`> pff, jonesforth only has "branch"
20:40:33 <ehird`> read it! it doesn't take too long ;)
20:40:41 <ehird`> (it continues at http://www.annexia.org/_file/jonesforth.f.txt when it gets into forth)
20:40:43 <oerjan> shouldn't that be 1337?
20:41:21 <oerjan> (er, SimonRC not ehird`)
20:42:39 <ehird`> : FORTH COMPILER-SEMANTICS UNINTUITIVE GOOD ;
20:43:31 <oklopol> if you have less than a hundred commands, numbers are just as easy to use as words
20:43:47 <ehird`> oklopol: that is not the point
20:44:17 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: oklopol doesn't get "easy", he thinks that if /he/ knows how his code works (... right now... while he's writing it... for the first time...) then why should he do anything else
20:44:29 <ehird`> obviously incorrect, unless you want one session in your editor and then have to abandon it
20:45:30 <oklopol> i've never had any trouble reading my code after a long time, except for the sickest ones i've done; i'm just saying numbers are as eays to understand as words, if you just have a few of them to memorize.
20:46:13 <ehird`> i don't comment religiously because i make my code self-documenting
20:46:17 <ehird`> this means not using numbers for words ;)
20:46:23 <SimonRC> every time I want to add a word, I write it in BoredForth in a comment, then write the number underneath
20:46:34 <SimonRC> I haven't got it bootstrapping yet :-(
20:46:40 <ehird`> seriously, you should read jonesforth
20:46:43 <ehird`> getting out of bootstrapping is simple
20:46:56 <ehird`> go, read it now, then go back to boredforth with your new knowledge :-)
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20:54:15 <ehird`> i have a new life goal!
20:54:20 <ehird`> create a programming language where this is cat: http://rafb.net/p/GhR1Hn14.html
20:55:25 <oerjan> NNNGHHH! (that was a comment)
20:56:16 <ehird`> having / and slash both as commands is beautiful
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20:57:54 <oklopol> i like the line noise ones that have a theme going on... it gets a bit boring when it's fully random
20:58:05 <oklopol> question marks remind me of that... whatsit...
20:58:16 <oklopol> the language with splot and mulbruf
20:58:25 <oklopol> but the names were something completely different
20:58:39 <ehird`> ok, how about the ? / language
20:58:46 <ehird`> i don't know what it is, but it's crazy
20:59:42 <oklopol> i think the one i mean is cakeprophet's, but not sure
21:00:05 <oklopol> also, where is that guy... i hate it when regulars dissappear
21:00:20 <oklopol> it's like losing a friend :'(
21:00:31 <oerjan> FNRK BRTRTRTR SKRNK SVRPTK
21:00:43 <ehird`> oerjan: isisaoa9838383
21:04:57 <ehird`> / changes all /s into ?s
21:06:44 <ehird`> i'm pretty sure those semantics aren't tc :p
21:07:00 <oklopol> well call/cc wouldn't make any sense, but anyway xD
21:07:18 <oklopol> since... wtf is calling in a substitution language :)
21:08:18 <ehird`> ooh, how about something that operates on the program code as a data structure
21:08:21 <ehird`> and the commands modify it
21:14:28 <ehird`> that is not what lisp does
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21:19:55 <ehird`> since lisp is lists not strings
21:19:56 <oklopol> everything should be self-modifying
21:21:36 <oklopol> "data structure" need not mean "string"...
21:23:45 <pikhq> Lists are a data structure.
21:23:55 <pikhq> And everything in Lisp is a list.
21:24:09 <ehird`> and a bunch of other stuff :-)
21:24:37 <oklopol> pikhq: but lisp cannot modify itself
21:25:16 <pikhq> Isn't that what Lisp macros *are*?
21:25:18 <oklopol> yes, but you cannot make a loop that keeps itself going by adding nested lists to itself for more to evaluate
21:25:34 <ehird`> oklopol is right, without eval
21:26:25 <oerjan> you could do something with rplacd, surely?
21:26:31 <oklopol> i think macros are a bit limited, not being first-class thingies, but you might be able to do program flow with them... haven't really used them enough to know.
21:26:48 <oerjan> (but maybe not in the code)
21:26:50 <ehird`> um macros are first class
21:27:00 <ehird`> lisp macros are first-class..
21:28:38 <ehird`> hm, i thought scheme macros were first-class
21:28:52 <ehird`> ok, now someone has to implement first-class-macros using scheme macros :-)
21:29:01 <oklopol> ololobot lisp has first-class macros, but you can't define your own macros, so it's kinda retarded ;)
21:30:51 <oklopol> it's retarded, i tells ya!
21:31:03 <oklopol> the whole thing is just a quick hack.
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21:31:59 <oklopol> it just has a few basic things, and i'm not sure that's even a working version of it.
21:32:12 <oklopol> i'm too lazy to use the newest version, since it's on the other comp
21:32:42 <oklopol> >>> sch (define a (lambda (b c) (+ b c)))
21:33:17 <ehird`> >>> sch (lambda (x) x)
21:33:32 <ehird`> >>> sch ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x)))
21:33:45 <pikhq> ehird` beat me to it.
21:34:08 <oklopol> i'm using python's __reload__ for "threading"
21:34:24 <oklopol> so... it basically dies when you reuse the command, i think
21:34:32 <ehird`> I CAN HAS ERROR MESSAGES?
21:34:33 <oklopol> hmm... not sure i have quoting in that version
21:34:52 <ehird`> do you have quasiquote
21:35:14 <ehird`> that is, `(a b ,c d) is (list 'a 'b c 'd)
21:35:19 <oklopol> no, haven't implemented it in that version
21:35:20 <ehird`> quasiquoting is useful you should support it
21:35:28 <oklopol> but i think i even have the comma thingie in the new one
21:36:49 <ehird`> >>> sch (define \ lambda)
21:36:53 <ehird`> does it remember definitions?
21:37:42 <oklopol> primitives are always autoreloaded, so you can't kill them permanently
21:37:44 <ehird`> >>> sch (define \ (lambda (x y) (eval (list lambda (list x) y))))
21:39:27 <oklopol> >>> sch (eval (list lambda (list x) 4))
21:39:39 <oklopol> >>> sch ((eval (list lambda (list x) 4)) 5)
21:44:10 <ehird`> (\ x y) should be (lambda (x) y)
21:44:14 <ehird`> my code SHOULD do that...
21:46:17 <ehird`> is that (\ x y) fails right there
21:46:22 <ehird`> because x is evaluated right-there
21:46:26 <oklopol> yeah, because \ isn't a macro anymore.
21:46:28 <ehird`> add a defmacro function
21:46:42 <ehird`> (defmacro name args code)
21:46:47 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: yes, yes, i know
21:47:00 <ehird`> but yes, (DEFMACRO name args code) plz
21:48:27 <ehird`> come on, it'll be trivial
21:48:30 <oklopol> make your own lisp and make it good ;)
21:48:56 <oklopol> i'm too lazy to even run the new bot, you think i'll start adding stuff to it :D
21:49:09 <ehird`> as long as your sch works, i'm happy :-)
21:49:41 <oklopol> i've been trying to make my wire drawing program all day, was doing graphics with windows' own drawing functions... i have no idea why, but that was my stupidest idea ever.
21:50:08 <oklopol> it seems to automatically redraw everytime i draw something, i have no idea how to make it wait until drawing is over...
21:51:04 <oklopol> so i tried to convert to sdl, but i can't find sdl_gfx for windows, and without it everything is too slow to use (if i just directly draw on the SDL_Surface, it's slow as hell...)
21:52:10 <oklopol> i know both those suck, and i should use opengl or something, but i'm so pissed off at having already spent hours trying to find the right functions, i don't really wanna start learning a new api...
21:52:52 <oklopol> I NEEW TO DRAW GRAY POINTS, DOTS, AND LINES, HOW THE FUCK CAN IT BE SO HARD
21:53:05 <ehird`> I'm writing a simple lisp in C now oklopol :-)
21:54:22 <oklopol> the problem with C is, i like having an interactive debugger, and they just don't seem to work...
21:55:03 <oklopol> hmm... not sure i've tried that one
21:55:27 <ehird`> it is exceptionally good
21:56:17 <oklopol> i can't use my linux machine for graphics
21:56:31 <ehird`> ok, but oklopol has cygwin
21:56:34 <ehird`> and i don't think he hsa mingw
21:56:47 <GregorR> To be honest, I doubt that the Cygwin one can debug non-Cygwin binaries.
21:57:13 <bsmntbombdood> rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins into their clothing, and if we're very very lucky, they'll do it in that order
21:57:50 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: where was that from?
21:58:06 <GregorR> That was bsmntbombdood's job description.
21:58:42 <ehird`> mini-lisp-implementation question
21:58:57 <ehird`> ints, longs, or bignums-as-list-of-digits-in-hexadecimal?
21:59:13 <ehird`> as a list of digits in hexadecimal?
21:59:26 <ehird`> then you can't do things like
21:59:35 <ehird`> (parse-int (2 f 3 4 9 a 2 b))
22:00:00 <oklopol> why would you wanna waste half your chars?
22:00:18 <oklopol> and just use 4 out of 8 bits
22:00:20 <ehird`> i think i will just do a normal int
22:00:55 <ehird`> also, "strings" (when i make them) will just be atoms
22:01:10 <ehird`> so "a b c" will just be the syntax to get an atom of the same name because you can't put just a b c in code
22:01:40 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: yes, but funny to implement
22:01:46 <ehird`> also, it makes shit a hell of a lot simpler
22:01:50 <ehird`> as i only need to provide one set of functions
22:03:51 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: shall i make you ew some more?
22:03:55 <ehird`> i think i'll use REFERENCE COUNTING!
22:04:13 <ehird`> that was meant to make you explode
22:05:00 <oklopol> reference counting is okay in most situations
22:05:16 <oklopol> well, in all really, who cares about memory leaks, not me
22:05:45 <ehird`> #define NIL ((LIST *)0)
22:05:45 <ehird`> where LIST is a struct. am I evil yet?
22:05:47 <GregorR> Use reference counting, and also have a GC. The GC will be called so rarely it's not a big overhead, but it's there for circular refs.
22:06:01 <oklopol> yeah, that's prolly the best way
22:06:15 <ehird`> GregorR: but that's, you know. work.
22:06:23 <ehird`> refcounting = so damn trivial to implement
22:06:48 <GregorR> GC = #include <gc/gc.h> -lgc
22:06:55 <oklopol> it's not that hard if you make a trivial one
22:06:57 <GregorR> (OK, so that's an ultralame solution :) )
22:06:57 <ehird`> yes, but that would be THIRD-PARTY
22:07:21 <ehird`> and the gc/refcounter is a pretty integral part of lisp
22:07:38 <ehird`> using a third-party solution seems kind of like deferring list handling to a library :-)(
22:08:16 <ehird`> am i the only one obsessed with metacircular interpreters and bootstrapping?
22:08:30 <ehird`> whenever i implement a language, i force myself to do the minimum possible, then write the rest in itself
22:09:22 <GregorR> That's the best way to go.
22:09:37 <ehird`> GregorR: I mean even things like "if"
22:09:38 <oklopol> gdb is too hard for me to install
22:09:48 <GregorR> ehird`: Plof3's if is implemented in Plof3.
22:09:52 <ehird`> And - (it's obviously (+ x (neg y))!)
22:09:58 <oklopol> i really need the secretary...
22:09:59 <GregorR> ehird`: EHello, Plof2's if is implemented in Plof2.
22:10:12 <ehird`> sorry, i have no idea what plof is
22:10:29 <oklopol> that's like not knowing what pebble is ^2
22:10:35 <ehird`> oh, it's a serious language?
22:10:43 <oklopol> or like not knowing what brainfuck is ^-7
22:10:51 <ehird`> ok show me some examples
22:11:31 <GregorR> I have none, as my brain is entirely in Plof3 but my implementation is entirely in Plof2 :P
22:11:42 <ehird`> show me some plof3 examples
22:12:13 <GregorR> Well, Plof3 is a simple stack language with just some object manipulation operators, and a runtime parser.
22:12:29 <GregorR> The parser is bootstrapped with a grammar just simple enough to define a useful grammar within the language.
22:12:51 <pikhq> I can give some simple Plof2 examples. . .
22:13:14 <oklopol> i thought i could, but i've forgotten some crucial things about it :<
22:13:35 <pikhq> (x):{x(x);}((x):{x(x);});
22:13:44 <ehird`> bah, i don't want to write a hash table in C for the variable table
22:13:45 <GregorR> No starting with horrifying examples :P
22:13:59 <pikhq> ((lambda x (x x)) (lambda x (x x)))
22:14:00 <ehird`> pikhq: something that isn't (\x. x x) (\x. x x)
22:14:26 <GregorR> Tell ya what - if you wait 4 hours until I'm not at work, I can make some good'ns :P
22:14:45 <ehird`> someone tell me a cheap way to get around writing a hash table
22:16:04 <ehird`> i want to frolic in the fields of malloc
22:16:20 <pikhq> Don't use a hash table.
22:16:41 <pikhq> ehird`: I recommend pulling the latest Plof, and playing.
22:16:43 <GregorR> Use a linear-linked list of variable->value associations :P
22:16:50 <ehird`> GregorR: i might just ;)
22:17:05 <ehird`> ((var . value) (var . value))
22:17:19 <ehird`> ok, what humorous name shall i give to my malloc-but-dies-on-error
22:17:28 <ehird`> i am thinking "moolloc"
22:17:42 <Fa1r> Spank that ass, put it in, let's go for a hell of a ride..
22:18:11 <GregorR> void *buf = spankThatAssPutItInLetsGoForAHellOfARide(bufferSize);
22:20:51 <GregorR> I wonder, if I really hunkered down, if I could get Plof3 written this weekend.
22:21:15 <ehird`> but seriously, what should i call the malloc
22:22:41 <oklopol> wonder what it'd cost if i paid someone to install me a C compiler + a graphics library + nice ide with debugging :)
22:25:28 <ehird`> i should probably have a heap with all objects on
22:25:44 <ehird`> ... hey, that'd make for an easy GC: if an object is on the heap but not on the stack, zap
22:25:49 <ehird`> ... wait, no, that wouldn't work, would it?
22:26:47 <Fa1r> on my watch, plz
22:27:10 <ehird`> someone tell me i'm stupid -
22:27:11 <Fa1r> well.. i'd go for Dev-Cpp + SDL
22:27:16 <ehird`> a GC that just checks:
22:27:21 <Fa1r> but that's just me
22:27:28 <ehird`> if (on_heap && not_on_stack) free(obj)
22:27:33 <ehird`> where heap is, well, EVERY SINGLE OBJECT
22:27:38 <ehird`> ... that won't work as a gc will it?
22:27:46 <ehird`> i mean, global variables and the like surely?
22:27:52 <oklopol> if someone can link me an SDL_gfx for windows, i'd appreciate it
22:28:41 <ehird`> someone please tell me my gc idea
22:28:44 <ehird`> wouldn't work/would work
22:28:50 <Fa1r> http://www.libsdl.org/release/SDL-devel-1.2.12-mingw32.tar.gz
22:28:59 <Fa1r> seems that one got it already
22:29:16 <Fa1r> that is, for dev-cpp/mingw compiling
22:29:20 <GregorR> ehird`: It seems to me like you're deleting every object from that.
22:29:27 <ehird`> GregorR: not objects that are on the stack
22:29:39 <oklopol> "error after processing 0 entries"
22:29:44 <oklopol> i love it how everything just works!
22:29:49 <ehird`> oklopol uses winzip, also.
22:29:55 <GregorR> ehird`: If it's on the stack, you don't need a GC, it'll get deleted when the stack unwinds.
22:30:07 <ehird`> GregorR: right but what about ... globals and stuff
22:30:37 <oklopol> i have about 5 zipping programs
22:30:41 <GregorR> Let me put it this way: I have no idea what that GC is doing, so I can't tell you if it's correct.
22:30:41 <Fa1r> where are we going tomorrow, as with windows today
22:33:27 <oklopol> ehird`: doesn't look correct
22:33:45 <ehird`> well, what i'm doing with the heap is
22:33:48 <ehird`> the heap is a linked list
22:33:56 <ehird`> latest element = most recently allocated object
22:34:11 <ehird`> if something isn't on the stack, then it isn't being used any more
22:34:14 <ehird`> so i can search the heap
22:34:17 <ehird`> find stuff that isn't on the stack
22:34:25 <ehird`> i thought it was wrong
22:34:31 <GregorR> Things on the heap can link to other things on the heap.
22:34:36 <GregorR> That's the entire challenge of GCs :P
22:34:37 <oklopol> that will work as long as you can't make any compound objects
22:35:11 <ehird`> heh, i've just realised my refcount comments are like forth stack comments
22:35:23 <ehird`> /* REF +1 x, REF -1 y */
22:36:05 <ehird`> everyone has weird domains in their urls
22:36:10 <ehird`> why do i have boring ones
22:38:46 <ehird`> mine is elliotthird.org
22:38:56 <oerjan> nvg has the nuts.edu domain
22:39:15 <oklopol> mingw... does that have an ide?
22:39:26 <oerjan> but it's not the default used
22:39:34 <oklopol> it seems everything without an ide is too hard for me.
22:39:51 <oklopol> i wanna press "run" or "debug", not switch between windows :|
22:47:51 <ehird`> phew, most of the object stuff is done
22:48:07 <ehird`> now i can write simple helper functions in C, the eval function, and the core stuff
22:48:12 <ehird`> it's 150 lines right now
22:50:01 <ehird`> oklopol: how long has your lisp had macros?
22:50:13 <ehird`> i want to feel not-too-bad about omitting macros right now
22:50:37 <oklopol> lambda, define and if were almost the first thing i did... but that's all the macros it has, really
22:50:44 <oklopol> well, yeah, list and quote
22:50:53 <oklopol> and prolly a few more, but there's no real macro support
22:51:03 <ehird`> so it doesn't actually do any macro transformations?
22:51:17 <ehird`> just some special form things? i.e. functions that don't have their arguments evaluated?
22:51:22 <oklopol> then there are *no* macros, it has first-class macros, which cannot be created..
22:51:34 <ehird`> does it substitute them for their code while "compiling"?
22:51:38 <ehird`> or does it "call" them when evaluating?
22:51:40 <oklopol> special forms are first-class
22:51:43 <ehird`> if its the latter, you have no macros
22:52:08 <oklopol> yeah, i thought special forms are a subclass of macors.
22:52:34 <ehird`> how is your evaluator structured?
22:52:37 <ehird`> recursive or using a stack?
22:52:41 <ehird`> since its python i guess recursive
22:52:44 <ehird`> but recursive kind of sucks in c :p
22:52:57 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: yes, but it's an implicit stack
22:53:07 <ehird`> and as far as i know it's bad practice to recurse in a situation like this
22:53:13 <ehird`> :-) (i.e. having NO stack in the whole language)
22:53:32 <oklopol> for a while now i've been wanting to make my own assembly, and start making languages targeted for it
22:53:45 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: i guess
22:53:50 <ehird`> oh well i might just recurse
22:54:05 <oklopol> and yay, my installation was almost complete, then it popped up for some reason, and i pressed "C" while typing on the channel, and cancelled it :))
22:55:43 <oklopol> i should do all my coding on paper... using the computer seems to be too hard for me :P
22:56:50 <ehird`> oklopol: what scoping do you do? lexical?
22:56:55 <ehird`> i've never been able to implement lexical scoping
22:57:10 <oklopol> although it took me a while to actually grasp how it's done
22:57:12 <ehird`> maybe the descriptions i've read of its algorithm are just wrong i guess
22:57:17 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: yeah i know =(
22:57:25 <ehird`> lisp 1 used dynamic scope
22:57:39 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: dynamic scoping is fun sometimes, when used correctly.
22:58:17 <ehird`> i think what lisp needs is a new dialect (Not being sarcastic here :P)
22:58:31 <ehird`> scheme started off OK, but then it kind of tripped up and it's kind of trawling along in limbo right now
22:58:34 <ehird`> common lisp is just /ugly/
22:58:43 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: i don't really have a convincing argument about that.
22:58:53 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: i agree
22:59:18 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: scheme is beautiful but it has been in limbo for a while now
22:59:25 <oklopol> okay, i'll retry the install
22:59:33 <oklopol> let's hope i don't press C again
22:59:39 <oklopol> i'll just type without it.
22:59:47 <ehird`> so, a new dialect that combined scheme's beauty with unique practicality...
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23:01:54 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
23:02:02 <oklopol> ehird`: static scoping == when you create a function that encloses variables x, y etc., store the values of those variables (which you will find in the upper scope) in a closure or whaddyacallit and carry that around with the function
23:02:35 <ehird`> but every time i've tried to implement it
23:02:49 <oklopol> hmm, mine worked like that, but ...python <3
23:03:10 <ehird`> or rather, olololisp's code
23:03:50 <ehird`> i just wanted to see olololisp's code, haha
23:04:32 <oklopol> no matter how many times i tell people who wanna see my code that i already know everything that's wrong with it, and i just don't care, since i code for fun; still everyone needs to tell me the same things over and over again.
23:04:56 <ehird`> don't be so pessimisticf
23:05:37 <oklopol> i'm very pessimistic, i've been making a FUCKING PROGRAM FOR DRAWING LINES for like 6 hours
23:05:46 <oklopol> well, most of the time, like 5 hours, i've been idling
23:05:52 <ehird`> that's 1 byte in my language
23:05:57 <oklopol> and it's actually ready, i just don't have a graphics lib... but still
23:06:15 <oklopol> darn, wish i'd used that one!
23:06:29 <GregorR> Is DrawingLinesLanguage TC?
23:07:49 -!- Sgeo has quit (Success).
23:08:05 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p255331634.txt try to keep in mind this was done in 2~3 hours, and was not meant for another human to see, ever.
23:08:21 <oklopol> well, the core was, i may have added stuff like quote later on.
23:09:54 <GregorR> Y'know, recently a concept for encoding descriptive metadata into programs was created.
23:10:01 <GregorR> You may want to try that out.
23:10:16 <oklopol> GregorR: thanks for doing exactly what i said you would ;)
23:10:29 <ehird`> exactly what oklopol just said.
23:10:47 <GregorR> "Not meant for another human to see" != "free of comments"
23:10:59 <ehird`> "oklopol: no matter how many times i tell people who wanna see my code that i already know everything that's wrong with it, and i just don't care, since i code for fun; still everyone needs to tell me the same things over and over again."
23:11:19 <oklopol> hmm, why? english isn't any more descriptive than python to me :| well, prolly is, but i'll never admit that officially.
23:12:37 <oklopol> i'll start commenting once i learn lojban
23:13:14 <oklopol> the conlang i've been creating actually has an oklotalk module ;)
23:13:35 <oklopol> so... you could just write the code and the comments in the same language
23:13:45 <ehird`> you can speak, in your languge
23:13:56 <ehird`> doesn't that make talking to people non-deterministic? lmao
23:14:06 <ehird`> "MENTAL STACK OVERFLOW, BRAINS NOW OUT OF HEAD"
23:14:21 <ehird`> bah, i don't have a function type
23:14:27 <oklopol> you can read oklotalk code in english too...
23:14:46 <oklopol> it's just in english reading characters is quite verbose unless they form words.
23:15:40 <oklopol> that's already been done though...
23:15:58 <oklopol> also some stuff is commented out!
23:16:02 <ehird`> woot, i have unified functions and special forms
23:16:03 <oklopol> and there are code examples!
23:16:05 <ehird`> i just have a special attribute
23:16:12 <ehird`> which specifies whether to map(eval, args)
23:16:49 <ehird`> oklopol: so to implement lexical scoping
23:16:55 <ehird`> i have a "main mapping"
23:17:06 <ehird`> which is just your regular varname=>value mapping
23:17:14 <ehird`> then for a new scope (well, only scope is functions here, so:)
23:17:24 <ehird`> i have a seperate lookup table
23:17:33 <ehird`> i copy the current lookup table over to it
23:17:38 <ehird`> and then that's my scope
23:17:44 <ehird`> and i just bind vars, etc., whatever to that scope
23:17:46 <oklopol> yeah, lambdas carry a look-up table with them.
23:18:02 <ehird`> TABLE_IM_USING_RIGHT_NOW
23:18:13 <ehird`> i need TABLE_IM_USING because i will copy LAMBDA->LOOKUP_TABLE to it
23:18:24 <ehird`> so, when i do (set var value) and the like
23:18:27 <ehird`> it isn't carried over calls
23:18:30 <oklopol> umm... when you use a lambda, it will not use any variables from the outer scope.
23:18:38 <oklopol> that only happens when you *create* it
23:18:54 <oklopol> a lambda must always carry everything it uses, except for args
23:19:26 <ehird`> i need TABLE_IM_USING_RIGHT_NOW
23:19:35 <ehird`> and variables that i set
23:19:41 <ehird`> (lambda (x) (set blah x))
23:19:45 <ehird`> blah shouldn't carry across calls
23:19:51 <oklopol> it's not carried over calls, if you do a set, true.
23:19:57 <ehird`> so new variables go to TABLE_IM_USING instead of LAMBDA->LOOKUP_TABLE
23:20:02 <oklopol> unless you pass by argument
23:20:13 <ehird`> basically, TABLE_IM_USING is "if i'm in a function, put new stuff and arguments in here"
23:20:55 <oklopol> hmm, i think so, although i am pretty tired
23:21:18 <ehird`> hey, i thought of a good way to do variables without hash-tables
23:21:31 <ehird`> you have a backwards-linked list (i.e. you have a "TOP" and they have a "previous" property)
23:21:39 <ehird`> with, a string as name
23:21:49 <ehird`> so, to make a new variable, obviously you push it to the list
23:21:56 <ehird`> and you start from the top and go down to find a variable
23:22:00 <ehird`> when you want to change a variable
23:22:04 <ehird`> instead of finding it, then changing it
23:22:10 <ehird`> it finds it, deletes it, then pushes a new one
23:22:20 <ehird`> this takes advantage of the fact that recently-set variables are more likely to be used recently
23:22:20 <oklopol> what was the reason for not using a hash table for vars?
23:22:27 <ehird`> and because i don't want to implement one in C :P
23:23:26 <oklopol> well, first of all you should assing each atom... well, string that's used as an atom in your case i guess... an integer value, for O(1) equality
23:23:46 <ehird`> and really, they do have one... the object id
23:23:56 <ehird`> although, my stuff is weird
23:23:57 <oklopol> and... hmm... that list thing might be good, but a hash table would pwn it
23:24:02 <ehird`> integers are allocated on-use
23:24:08 <ehird`> instead of saving them for later
23:24:10 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+").
23:24:15 <ehird`> so, "3" is a different 3 each time
23:24:46 <oklopol> that doesn't really make much difference :)
23:25:26 <ehird`> but, what do you mean about an integer/string mapping
23:25:52 <oklopol> mingw doesn't have an ide, or?
23:26:55 <ehird`> let's picture a repl session
23:27:26 <ehird`> all objects - symbol, string (well, symbol :P), number, or list
23:27:33 <ehird`> are different each time you mention one as a literal
23:28:25 <oklopol> yeah, okay, well, the idea of using atoms is that you can just assign each atom a number, and forget the string the atom represents
23:28:48 <oklopol> except you need to store a num->string mapping separately, since you can access the atom string at runtime
23:31:20 <ehird`> my way follows the scheme-to-c compiler ichbins
23:31:24 <ehird`> which does the same as me
23:33:32 <oklopol> i guess that's not really necessary.
23:33:59 <ehird`> my lisp will have a grand total of four types
23:34:04 <ehird`> cons, symbol, number, lambda
23:34:47 <ehird`> (cons is (a . b) or (cons a b)... lists are cons. (EL1 EL2 EL3) is (cons EL1 (cons EL2 (cons EL3 NIL))) where NIL is the empty list)
23:35:24 <oklopol> yeah, that's how lisp always workz
23:36:11 <oklopol> hey, i think i found an ide for mingw, dev-cpp!
23:36:20 <ehird`> when i get this lisp (it's called Xlisp. officially "the X means it's awesome" but I just couldn't think of anything better) done, I'm going to bind a few C libs to it (like sockets) then write an irc bot in it :D
23:36:25 <ehird`> the irc bot, of course, will be scriptable in the language
23:36:30 <ehird`> oklopol: that was suggested to you... ages ago
23:36:34 <oklopol> i used to have dev-cpp... the debug didn't work
23:37:21 <oklopol> i have read the line before and after that, but don't remember seeing that line :P
23:37:34 <oklopol> also, i've used dev-cpp, it just doesn't work
23:38:55 <oklopol> if it doesn't work, i don't know what to do
23:39:21 <oklopol> all this installing isn't good for my health
23:45:13 <ehird`> someone give me a three-letter abbreviation for 'lambda'
23:48:20 <ehird`> now try a program in it, and realise the awesome of gdb
23:48:21 <oklopol> but... it works! it didn't work when i last installed that :)
23:48:25 <ehird`> main commands that you need:
23:48:31 <ehird`> sets the command-line args
23:48:35 <ehird`> start/stop ... starts or stops
23:48:39 <ehird`> step step one instruction
23:48:52 <ehird`> next step one instruction but don't show e.g. what nested functions are doing
23:48:57 <ehird`> continue go until we die
23:49:02 <ehird`> tb get the traceback when we've died
23:49:12 <ehird`> print ANY_C_EXPRESSION_HERE wut is dis?
23:49:13 <oklopol> umm... how do i set args? :|
23:49:27 <ehird`> you type "set args a b c d" to set the args to "a b c d"
23:49:33 <ehird`> "start" to start the program, "stop" to stop it
23:49:41 <ehird`> "step" to go forwards one instruction
23:49:48 <oklopol> but... i assume you don't mean i should write them in the source code...
23:49:50 <ehird`> "next" to step forwards one instruction but skip inner function calls
23:49:54 <ehird`> "continue" until we die
23:50:01 <ehird`> "tb" get the traceback when we've died, "print BLAH" to show BLAH
23:50:04 <ehird`> you do it in the debugger
23:50:38 <ehird`> dev-c++ doesn't use gdb
23:50:50 <ehird`> well, it does internally i think
23:50:57 <ehird`> but it doesn't let you command it using the gdb interface
23:51:04 <ehird`> just it's key-combinations which presumably are severely lacking
23:51:45 <oklopol> omg i found something myself.
23:52:08 <ehird`> you can see the output and send a command to gdb
23:52:15 <ehird`> now, use that, and accept no other interface for debugging. ;)
23:52:59 <ehird`> just make sure to put a breakpoint on your first line
23:53:01 <ehird`> so you can use the interface
23:53:58 <ehird`> so does the gdb commands work?
23:53:59 <oklopol> that shouldn't be hard to get working on that, right?
23:54:03 <ehird`> and yeah, it's trivial
23:54:09 <ehird`> just try and compile an sdl program
23:54:54 <oklopol> hmm... doesn't seem to work...
23:56:00 <oklopol> might work without installing SDL?
23:56:37 <ehird`> you didn't put it in your include path
00:02:31 <ehird`> jesus christ! ##c is terrible
00:08:53 <GregorR> I recall getting an answer to a question in ##c once. It took many hours and more insults and answers, but I did get it.
00:09:14 <GregorR> If I had a C question (which I never do because I'm meeeeeeeee) I'd ask in #esoteric :P
00:09:30 <ehird`> poppavic has to be the single most infuriating rambling idiot ever
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00:10:37 <lament> but he's only infuriating if you're trying to argue with him. Don't.
00:10:54 <lament> when you don't, he's actually kinda funny.
00:11:16 <ehird`> i've always thought i could write a program that spews out nonsense at about the same rate as poppavic does
00:14:16 <oklopol> do i just copy the files in \bin to the \bin of mingw and so on?
00:14:38 <oklopol> and no, i've never really dl'd libraries :P
00:15:15 <ehird`> you know, you'd have a lot easier job if you just used a cygwin-based build system
00:15:28 <ehird`> well ok, you shouldn't use make yourself
00:15:54 <oklopol> hmm... i couldn't find gdb in the cygwin setup..
00:16:15 <ehird`> i think it comes with gcc
00:16:34 <ehird`> but anyway, gcc & gdb are top-notch tools and using them directly will benefit you greatly
00:16:45 <ehird`> they're pretty much the gnu project's only decent achivements ;)
00:17:08 <oklopol> but... i kinda like a graphical view :|
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00:17:52 <ehird`> what is a graphical view to a compiler?
00:18:00 <ehird`> a compiler takes some code and makes a program
00:18:03 <ehird`> and tells you if anything is wrong
00:18:05 <ehird`> what is graphical about that?
00:18:07 <oklopol> not the compiler, the debugger
00:18:15 <ehird`> it tells you what line it's executing
00:18:18 <ehird`> and lets you tell it what to do
00:18:43 <oklopol> it's nice seeing it highlight the current row in the code"
00:18:56 <ehird`> it does, actually, with gdb
00:19:04 <ehird`> it even gives you a line number
00:19:12 <ehird`> you see the file name, line number, and source code of the line
00:19:18 <oklopol> there's no "gdb" in cygwin anyway
00:19:33 <ehird`> GNU gdb 6.5.50.20060706-cvs (cygwin-special)
00:19:43 <ehird`> nothign in cygwin is built in!!
00:19:48 <ehird`> the whole POINT is that you run the setup to add stuff!!
00:19:59 <ehird`> yes, because it's essential
00:20:03 <ehird`> but everything else is not
00:20:18 <ehird`> EVERY peice of software cygwin has - almost everything - is not by default
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00:20:46 <oklopol> you happen to know where it is there?
00:21:18 <oklopol> it's only obvious if you don't read that as "Jewel"
00:21:38 <GregorR> When I'm just looking for a specific program, I always set it to the full view.
00:21:47 <GregorR> The categories are often confusing.
00:21:51 <ehird`> GregorR: you use windows too? :(
00:22:06 * ehird` has to right now unfortunately
00:22:12 <GregorR> But in the exceedingly rare occasion when I'm forced to, I install Cygwin.
00:22:21 <ehird`> but nevertheless some sort of UNIX-based OS shall save the day!
00:22:30 <ehird`> it is a long story why i am not on the iMac over there right now
00:23:39 <oklopol> i'll install linux once i get a new computer, although i'm starting to hate windows so much it might happen before that...
00:23:50 <ehird`> haha, oklopol, this is unexpected for you
00:23:56 <ehird`> i thought you hated open source. :p
00:24:17 <oklopol> 1. i don't *hate* it, i'm more afraid of it.
00:24:17 <ehird`> (i might get an old thinkpad laptop, put debian and xmonad on... i could get one cheap)
00:24:26 <oklopol> 2. i've never liked windows
00:25:17 <GregorR> So. Gregor is getting a video watch. Isn't that cool?!?!?!?!!? :P
00:26:03 <ehird`> and can it run a browser?
00:26:07 <ehird`> i have only one thing to say
00:26:12 <lament> GregorR: what does that mean?
00:28:27 <GregorR> It means it's a watch that can play videos :)
00:28:35 <GregorR> (And MP3s, which is why I bought it :P )
00:28:59 <ehird`> GregorR: ok but DOES IT HAVE WIFI
00:29:18 <GregorR> ehird`: No, it is not a palmtop on your wrist :P
00:29:33 <ehird`> because a watch running cgi:irc
00:29:36 <ehird`> would be beyond the boundries of cool
00:29:58 <GregorR> No, it is not the GNU/Linux watch from IBM :P
00:30:06 <ehird`> damnit!! stop giving me IDEAS!
00:30:21 <ehird`> imagine a watch, that ran a real window manager
00:30:24 <ehird`> and ran real X11 programs
00:30:30 <ehird`> and had a real computer
00:30:34 <ehird`> it was a fucking WATCH
00:30:37 <ehird`> and it goes on your WRIST
00:30:44 <lament> ehird`: possibly the most useless thing ever?
00:30:53 <lament> GregorR: why the hell would you want to watch videos on your watch?
00:31:05 <GregorR> lament: I don't, I want an MP3 player on my watch :P
00:31:11 <ehird`> maybe even your FUCKING WRIST if you do odd things with your wrist...
00:31:32 <GregorR> lament: But all the MP3 player watches that didn't play videos had physical analog timepieces (wtf?)
00:32:05 <ehird`> GregorR: i am now, sometime, going to make a linux watch which runs X11
00:32:17 <ehird`> it will also have a flip-out mini keyboard
00:32:17 <GregorR> ehird`: Go talk to IBM. They already made one.
00:32:23 <ehird`> DOES THEIRS HAVE THE ABOVE?
00:32:32 <lament> GregorR: so you bought it for the mp3 player. Does that mean you'll plug headphones into your wrist watch?
00:32:35 <ehird`> does theirs have a screen relatively big?! (but still wrist-fitting)
00:32:53 <ehird`> because, mine would like
00:33:02 <ehird`> and, like, it would be cool.
00:33:09 <lament> ehird`: cool it would not be.
00:33:12 <ehird`> the watch would be SCRIPTABLE
00:33:21 <lament> GregorR: why not just get an mp3 player?
00:33:29 <ehird`> and you could CUSTOMIZE THE DISPLAY
00:33:49 <GregorR> lament: Because my PDA watch broke so I don't have anything nerdy in watch form factor? And the price was right.
00:34:07 <ehird`> ok, now the idea is fully formed
00:34:10 <ehird`> i will make the WATCHPUTER
00:34:17 <lament> GregorR: ah, so it's a status symbol as a geek?
00:34:18 <ehird`> it will have a fold-out tiny-keyboard
00:34:24 <ehird`> a rather big screen for a watch
00:34:33 <ehird`> customizable watch display
00:34:41 <ehird`> and IT WILL RUN X11 APPS
00:34:52 <lament> ehird`: girls will love it!
00:35:21 <lament> remember those watches with a calculator?
00:35:28 <lament> braces, pocket protector, and a watch with a calculator?
00:35:53 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.watchluxus.com/brands/nivrel/erotic_watches/erotica
00:36:53 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: My video watch playing extremely low-resolution porn will be far higher-quality erotica :P
00:37:35 <GregorR> But it's bigger than QQVGA! :P
00:37:49 <lament> i think that's what my palm had
00:37:56 <ehird`> someone modernized the old emacs backronym
00:37:58 <GregorR> For a watch, it's pretty respectable. I downscaled a few videos and they're watchable *shrugs*
00:37:59 <lament> it's enough for reading books
00:38:09 <ehird`> Eight Megabytes and Constantly Swapping -> Eighty Megabytes and Constantly Swapping
00:38:35 <GregorR> ehird`: HEY! That's called PROGRESS.
00:39:02 <lament> i need to buy a watch, but i can't find one that looks decent
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00:41:23 <GregorR> If you won't go tech, go classique!
00:41:43 <oklopol> i want a chinese kid for a watch
00:42:03 <oklopol> imagine it ticking once a second!
00:46:31 <lament> pocket watches are awfully inconvenient, I already have a cellphone in my pocket that tells the time just fine
00:47:17 <oklopol> i wonder if you could learn to run a clock in your head
00:48:19 <lament> and not with any accuracy
00:49:14 <lament> bsmntbombdood: it's not that bad
00:49:18 <oklopol> i don't consider myself normal enough not to try that, i'll begin training tomorrow
00:49:46 <oklopol> haha, you think i can actually keep a routine going ;)
00:50:01 <oklopol> well, i've managed to do that sometimes, but it's very unlikely
00:50:10 <oklopol> although that would be an extremely cool thing to try
00:50:33 <lament> bsmntbombdood: cellphones are actually ridiculously convenient
00:50:52 <lament> if you don't want to be bothered, you can always just turn it off
00:52:38 <oklopol> hmm... i hope i get sdl working tomorrow, then i have a good 24 hours to code my circuit thingie :P
00:53:21 <bsmntbombdood> it would be easy enough to keep time by yourself in the foreground
00:54:12 <oklopol> hmm, i think i'll try timing a minute until i can always do that, then move to longer intervals
00:54:26 <oklopol> i usually get 57..1:03 when i try
00:55:27 <oklopol> hmm... doesn't really sound possible not to have *any* error, and it accumulates quite fast :|
00:56:07 <oklopol> perhaps i'll put a machine under my skin to gimme a little shock every 5 seconds
00:56:17 <oklopol> then i'll just learn to count them subconsciously
00:56:41 <lament> consider a machine on your wrist that tells you the time
00:57:04 <lament> a friend has a binary watch, that's kinda neat
00:57:19 <lament> http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/watches/
00:57:44 <oklopol> i've been thinking of getting one myself
00:58:23 <oklopol> but i don't like wearing a watch
00:58:47 <lament> heh, http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/watches/6dc1/
00:59:36 <lament> certainly not worth $600, though
00:59:49 <lament> bsmntbombdood: http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/watches/74ce/
01:00:04 <lament> bsmntbombdood: get that one :)
01:00:17 <GregorR> Who the hell would buy that for $600 ...
01:00:48 * lament considers actually buying the slide rule watch
01:02:03 <pikhq> Someone short a real slide rule.
01:02:11 <GregorR> lament: It would be amusing to show that to somebody when they asked for the time ^^
01:02:26 <lament> the slide rule one, or the earth one?
01:02:47 <GregorR> It has so many numbers and hands, if you didn't know most of them aren't involved in telling time you would just be confused :)
01:02:50 <lament> anybody can tell time from it
01:03:01 <lament> eh, the hour and minute hands are obvious
01:03:53 <lament> oh, i see, that watch is specifically for pilots
01:04:09 <lament> hence the unit conversions
01:04:40 <GregorR> http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/watches/954e/ <-- the watch I'm getting (for about half the price from a different site)
01:05:20 <lament> not sure if it qualifies as a "watch"
01:05:52 <GregorR> When you're not watching a video, it displays the time :P
01:05:56 <lament> http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/watches/706f/
01:06:25 <lament> the only problem is that it's inaccurate
01:06:32 <lament> since you can't adjust latitude
01:06:43 <lament> it's fixed to the average latitude in the states
01:06:51 <GregorR> I wonder what "Japanese movement" means ...
01:06:53 <lament> will be a little optimistic for canada
01:07:03 <lament> still i'm seriously considering buying that
01:09:24 <lament> it's probably completely dark at night, though
01:09:31 <lament> "Swiss "Super Luminescent" dial that glows for 2-3 hours"
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01:11:38 <GregorR> Ironic if you can't read your starmap at night :P
01:22:43 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: Sure. "bsmntbombdood"
01:26:17 <bsmntbombdood> don't touch your dick while there's hot sauce on your fingers
01:26:26 <bsmntbombdood> (unless you're in the mood for that sort of thing)
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01:45:45 <pikhq> GregorR: With watches, foo movement typically means that the mechanics were designed in foo.
01:45:58 <pikhq> For example, "Swiss movement" means that it's a Swiss watch.
01:46:06 <pikhq> (take with a grain of salt, though)
02:00:39 <RodgerTheGreat> I was sitting in my friend's room this afternoon, watching him play minesweeper, and I found myself with a tremendous urge to play the game myself. Unfortunately, I didn't have minesweeper on my computer...
02:00:47 <RodgerTheGreat> ... so I went ahead and wrote it: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/games/mines/
02:01:31 <RodgerTheGreat> this is an example of why being a programmer is awesome
02:03:04 <RodgerTheGreat> now I'm tempted to implement all the other games Windows 95 came with- jezzball, tetra-vex, tetris, ski-free, chip's challenge, rodent's revenge...
02:04:04 <pikhq> The question is, are you any good at Minesweeper?
02:09:14 <RodgerTheGreat> I have more fun with really dense minefields than with speedruns
02:14:42 <RodgerTheGreat> I should create a reality -TV show in which the survival of the contestants relies on their ability to play minesweeper
02:20:06 <RodgerTheGreat> maybe the audience would get to vote on the placement of some of the mines
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02:38:50 <pikhq> Why does Darcs have to be in Haskell?
02:39:12 <GregorR> For maximum obnoxiousity :)
02:39:45 <pikhq> I get the feeling that it's been an OS install since I've messed with Plof.
02:41:25 <pikhq> GHC takes forever to build.
02:54:40 <GregorR> {urpmi,apt-get install,yum install,yourfavoritepackagemanager install} darcs
03:02:42 <pikhq> And so, we return to GHC taking forever to build.
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06:18:00 <pikhq> http://pastebin.com/m5bd0d3f4
06:18:08 <pikhq> What the *fuck* was I thinking back then?
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09:02:43 <oklopol> minesweeper sucks in that there's always at least one fifty-fifty decision, where you simply cannot know where the mines are
09:08:21 <oklopol> played one expert just now, had to do 2 50-50 decision
09:43:11 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: i love it how you can check where the mines are if you're not sure ;)
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11:13:42 <ttm> You know what's lame about writing signature programs in C? Needing #include lines for standard library headers.
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13:11:33 <ttm> I've definitely got past the point of diminishing returns on ehird`'s signature challenge. As noted before, the #include lines really screw it up. http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/siersig.c
13:12:51 * ehird` goes and checks logs to see if anyone else submitted... i doubt it
13:12:59 <ehird`> you probably win by default :-)
13:13:50 <ehird`> i think includes aren't counted, pikhq's quicksort didn't have any and it used lib functions :-)
13:14:36 <ttm> Warning...make sure line 6 contains three characters of value 128. I've found that this program can be damaged by copying and pasting it.
13:14:46 <ehird`> i wget'd it and it works
13:15:14 <ehird`> hehe, 20000 iterations... chaos game isn't a very efficient algorithm, is it? :-)
13:15:53 <ttm> (Didn't do a real test...but 9<<9 is not enough) :)
13:18:48 <ehird`> ircbrose.com is down? :S
13:23:05 <ehird`> 03:13:42 <ttm> You know what's lame about writing signature programs in C? Needing #include lines for standard library headers.
13:23:16 <ehird`> no C sig program i've seen has them, so :-)
13:27:32 <ehird`> anyway you win by default, haha
13:27:39 <ehird`> you'd probably win anyway, though
13:27:50 <ehird`> subtracting a string from a pointer? crazy
13:28:41 <ttm> I didn't do that :)
13:28:49 <ehird`> ok well whatever you did ;)
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15:56:15 <pikhq> ttm: If you don't include the header, then the prototype defaults to int foo(int,...); Also, C functions don't care *too* much about the right type getting passed.
15:56:46 <ehird`> crazy program, though, i still say
15:57:06 <pikhq> Besides which, putchar, srand, rand, and time all, in effect, take ints, anyways.
15:57:21 <pikhq> Otherwise, that's a fairly nice piece of work.
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15:57:48 <pikhq> Wait. . . We've got cristofd in here? w00ts!
15:58:22 <ehird`> (I didn't know that until this morning, though, I must mention, when I saw the URL :P)
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17:09:47 <ehird`> because, rule 1. you're not competetent enough to update it, keep it secure, and working all by yourself, rule 2. see rule 1
17:11:40 <bartw> it is not retarded
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17:21:51 <ehird`> when in msys do not type rm -rf c:/Program\ Files then hit enter instead of tab
17:24:31 <RodgerTheGreat> in case anyone was stumped by the "find the differences" from a while back, here's the solution: http://nonlogic.org/dump/images/1193502210-diffsol.png
17:24:50 <ehird`> i thought they were identical?
17:26:08 <ehird`> anyway i don't have the link to the differences themselves so what's the point
17:27:24 <ehird`> but i can't remember the differences image, so
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18:15:02 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: can you link the ftd from last week?
18:29:25 <ehird`> well.. it's not really that funny
18:30:45 <ehird`> oklopol: the images are 100% identical, but the solution has an image with many differences
18:32:41 <ehird`> wow, gtk isn't as shitty as i thought
19:06:26 <oklopol> if kazakstan is anything like what it is in borat, why don't i live there
19:42:48 <ehird`> i still can't comprehend ttm's sierpinski program :-)
19:45:49 <ttm> What part?
19:46:04 <ehird`> i think maybe i'm approaching my reading of it from the wrong direction
19:46:50 <ehird`> hmm you could shave a few bytes off by removing unneccessary ;s :P
19:49:19 <ttm> Not legal C.
19:49:39 <ehird`> i know that ;) -> ) is
19:49:43 <ehird`> for (x;y;z) is perfectly valid
19:49:50 <ehird`> i might be wrong about {ab} but i think i'm right
19:50:33 <ttm> Most of those in the program are "for(x;y;)" which is valid, but "for(x;y)" is not.
19:52:13 <ttm> And in C, ; is a terminator not a separator. I'm actually trying not to rely on GCC-specific quirks--besides, GCC won't even allow these.
19:52:34 <ttm> If it were Javascript I would have taken them out :)
19:53:32 <ttm> I did shorten it a bit more though.
20:01:58 <ehird`> bsmntbom1dood: [everybody gasps]
20:05:10 <oklopol> still haven't gotten sdl to work :D
20:05:11 <ttm> Okay. Breaking the lines in less intuitive places now.
20:05:30 <ttm> Relax, most of it's still in the same order.
20:05:50 <oklopol> tried dev-cpp, it gives a few linker errors, i've found multiple sources that tell how it's fixed, but nothing helps :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
20:06:02 <ttm> It's now four lines even with the stdlib which we NEED for the value of RAND_MAX.
20:06:11 <ttm> If we want this puppy vaguely portable.
20:06:23 <ehird`> oklopol: why don't you just install mingw? it has an installer :P
20:06:34 <ehird`> and you have no confusing cygwin package manager, you just compile the software your self
20:06:38 <ehird`> dev-cpp just uses mingw
20:06:41 <ttm> I'm also hesitating to replace the character constants with their ASCII values, again for portability.
20:06:49 <ehird`> when i said mingw i meant mingw+msys
20:06:58 <ehird`> but dev-cpp is kinda monolithic
20:07:11 <ehird`> ttm: name one platform used today that isn't ascii and could compile that code? :p
20:07:23 <ehird`> oklopol: yeah! EDItilla! but that's my editor, that isn't done yet. damn.
20:07:29 <ehird`> oklopol: but when it is done, it will be awesome!
20:07:43 <ttm> What's "today"? It should compile and run correctly almost anywhere ANSI C is accepted.
20:07:47 <oklopol> i'm not sure what you mean by monolithic, but the only problem with dev-cpp is i can't get sdl to compile.
20:10:39 <ttm> Of course, if the C code itself were translated to another character set, you'd have to reset three characters to whatever is 128 in that set.
20:19:11 <oklopol> ehird`: i couldn't get gcc to compile c++, even though the man said it will automatically compile .cpp files as c++
20:19:21 <oklopol> what might the reason for this be?
20:20:31 <ehird`> because you need to link it
20:21:36 <ehird`> it compiles c++ programs
20:23:24 <oklopol> hmm... so... i should try installing sdl to what next?
20:23:40 <oklopol> i already have it on dev-cpp, isn't that the same thing? :)
20:24:34 <oklopol> dev-cpp won't link it... should i try mingw without it?
20:24:49 <oklopol> i don't get how this can be so hard
20:25:03 <ehird`> because you're doing it wrong.
20:25:17 <ehird`> 1. don't compile sdl yourself on windows
20:25:17 <ehird`> 3. don't compile it with an ide
20:25:22 <oklopol> if it's easy, it can't be done wrong
20:25:41 <oklopol> err... i'm not compiling the actual sdl, i'm trying to compile a program that includes sdl
20:26:26 <ehird`> do you have sdl installed and it in your linker settings
20:27:20 <oklopol> undefined reference to '__cpu_features_init'
20:27:31 <ehird`> you fucked up your sdl compile
20:27:32 <oklopol> undefined reference to 'SDL_strlcopy'
20:28:02 <oklopol> i just put the sdl files in the folder they belong to
20:30:16 <oklopol> http://gpwiki.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7037&sid=696456490c4f83d2627d03be5ad924c7 i followed the explanation here
20:32:02 <ehird`> C:\Dev-cpp\bin <contains> ... SDL.dll
20:32:02 <ehird`> C:\Dev-cpp\include\SDL <contains> ... allSDL.H files
20:32:02 <ehird`> C:\Dev-cpp\lib <contains> ... lib SDL.la ... libSDL.dll.a ... libSDLmain.a
20:32:05 <ehird`> check those files are there
20:32:55 <oklopol> i did exactly what hugh says there
20:33:09 <ehird`> then ask somewhere where people know
20:33:10 <oklopol> also regarding what he says later
20:33:37 <oklopol> i've already given up hope, just bothering you for fun i guess.
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22:29:08 <oerjan> pikhq: building ghc from source is not recommended unless you are modifying it
22:29:22 <ehird`> oerjan: i build ghc from source
22:29:44 <ehird`> a build I compiled myself will always taste sweeter than a third-party binary :-)
22:29:52 <oerjan> i'm talking about the speed (btw i don't have ghc myself)
22:31:26 <ehird`> compilign it or ghc performance itself?
22:31:41 <ehird`> if latter, i'm pretty sure optimization is on by default ;)
22:31:48 <ehird`> if former, pff, i can wait an hour every now and then
22:34:45 <GregorR> oerjan: You can't beat sense into Gentoo'rs.
22:34:52 <GregorR> oerjan: It just can't be done.
22:36:35 <oerjan> i understand that even Gentoo needs a ghc binary to start the process
22:36:49 <oerjan> since ghc is written in haskell
22:37:37 <ehird`> i've always wondered about that... what would happen if everyone who hosted a binary of ghc suddenly died?
22:37:46 <ehird`> you'd have to manually port ghc to some other language and compile ghc with it
22:37:58 <ehird`> not a very secure roadmap :-)
22:38:14 <lament> what would happen if everyone who hosted a binary of gcc died?
22:38:34 <ehird`> can't gcc compile itself with another compiler as a bootstrap?
22:38:49 <ehird`> doesn't it use #ifdef __GNUC__ for the gcc-only bits?
22:41:53 <GregorR> Can't other Haskells run/compile GHC?
22:42:05 <ehird`> it uses ghc extensions
22:42:14 <ehird`> (hilarious, isn't it?)
22:42:33 <ehird`> i think i might go and write a compiler by banging on my keyboard repeatedly
22:42:48 <ehird`> when someone claims it could never compile anything, i'll ask them if they'd compiled it with itself first
22:43:16 <ehird`> for anyone asking information about the language, i'd tell them that the implementation is the spec
22:44:02 <bsmntbom1dood> unless you were rms, in which case thousands of greasy nerds around the world would hack nonstop untill they made it work
22:44:13 <bsmntbom1dood> and then they would praise you for your genius work
22:44:39 <ehird`> "first we deleted all of it, then we added a text editor"
22:46:47 <ehird`> linus once said that if you went over 4 levels of indentation, your code is broken and we should fix it... who's gonna write the program to analyze how many times it happens and where in C code and run it on the kernel?
22:49:41 <ehird`> yeah, in his coding guidelines for... the linux kernel
22:52:16 <GregorR> Coding guidelines are just that: guidelines. That just means that if you're that deeply indented, you ought to think about whether that's appropriate or if you should refactor.
22:52:46 <ehird`> "your code is broken and you should fix it"
22:52:49 <ehird`> that's more of a commandment ;)
22:53:24 <pikhq> oerjan: It's Gentoo building GHC, not me. ;)
22:53:33 <ehird`> it's actually 3 levels
22:53:35 <ehird`> "The answer to that is that if you need more than 3 levels of indentation, you're screwed anyway, and should fix your program. "
22:53:37 <GregorR> WTF? In the power outage I had list night, my Gaim lost its profile???
22:53:52 <ehird`> source http://pantransit.reptiles.org/prog/CodingStyle.html
22:54:24 <ehird`> indeed, but i have found those guidelines to be very good for c
22:54:44 <ehird`> "First off, I'd suggest printing out a copy of the GNU coding standards, and not read it. Burn them, it's a great symbolic gesture." is the only thing i follow /religiously/ though :-)
22:54:52 <pikhq> ehird`: IIRC, ghc includes a small Haskell compiler in C, which bootstraps GHC itself. . .
22:55:08 <ehird`> its compilation process downloads a bootstrap
22:55:26 <GregorR> I've just always thought the half-indentation is amusing :P
22:55:37 <ehird`> so THEYROCK is satirical?
22:55:53 <ehird`> func (args); has to be the most braindead thing ever
22:55:57 <ehird`> you can almost hear rms going
22:56:11 <ehird`> "i wish i used one of those lisp machine thingymagics instead of this you-nix, i liked those parens"
22:56:52 <GregorR> "Thingymagics" sounds hawt.
23:00:13 <pikhq> GregorR: Not quite.
23:00:38 <GregorR> You didn't do the spacing right - the braces are supposed to be half-indented.
23:00:58 <pikhq> Not when defining a function.
23:04:06 <ehird`> i haaate scripting languages
23:04:07 <GregorR> OK, so I don't know the GNU coding conventions :P
23:04:28 <ehird`> python is slow, lua's "end"s are ugly (but it is very fast, more so with luajit)...
23:04:47 <ehird`> perl is slow, unmaintainable and ugly, and yeck (this will change in perl 6, though)
23:05:16 <ehird`> plof doesn't really look usable for day to day stuff to me
23:05:36 <ehird`> it's just a bit too foreign imho
23:05:44 <ehird`> although it is interesting
23:05:48 <ehird`> I might contribute a C interpreter :-)
23:06:06 <ehird`> (since D can be pretty slow, etc., and language implementation can be quite low level)
23:06:06 <GregorR> Plof3 is entirely different from Plof2.
23:06:16 <ehird`> you still have not shown me any example Plof3 code
23:06:35 <GregorR> Any example of Plof2 code is also an example of Plof3 code at the moment (I haven't worked on the user language yet)
23:06:38 <GregorR> It's the guts that are different.
23:07:16 <ehird`> how functional is plof?
23:07:24 <ehird`> haskell functional not usable functional
23:07:32 <pikhq> GregorR: I could in either GNU coding standards or K&R standards. . .
23:07:46 <ehird`> pikhq: you use the gnu standards? D:
23:07:50 <ehird`> pikhq: you shall be killed
23:07:57 <GregorR> ehird`: Well, it's certainly not pure :P. Functions are first-class and closures etc are possible, but it's definitely an imperative language.
23:07:59 <ehird`> i hate your code and wish for its demise
23:08:17 <ehird`> GregorR: show me a factorial with "reduce"
23:08:58 <pikhq> GregorR: Have we *done* reduce?
23:09:18 <GregorR> I don't really have an implementation of it, no, but it's certainly implementable.
23:09:31 <ehird`> no reduce/map by default?
23:09:50 <GregorR> There's barely a standard library at all.
23:09:57 <GregorR> I'm a language designer, not a standard library designer.
23:10:15 <ehird`> bah, ok, show me a recursive factorial i guess :|
23:11:00 <GregorR> fact = (x):{ if(:{x == 1}, {x}, {x * fact(x-1)}) };
23:11:17 <ehird`> ok, so you have to use the lambda to define a function
23:11:27 <ehird`> that's not ideal IMO, even a little syntactic sugar would be nice
23:11:49 <ehird`> X(Y) = { ... } -> X = (Y):{ ... }
23:11:53 <ehird`> it's a tiny transformation
23:11:58 <ehird`> and a lot nicer loooking imo
23:12:07 <ehird`> also, it still makes "sense" - you're telling it what X(Y) means
23:12:09 <pikhq> But how do you differentiate between thick and thin functions?
23:12:22 <pikhq> (x){ ... } != (x):{ ... };
23:12:25 * GregorR intends to fix thick and thin functions at some point :P
23:12:29 <ehird`> what's the difference, pikhq
23:12:57 <GregorR> ehird`: Return semantics. Thin functions return from their associated thick function. It allows all blocks to be functions. It is a feature that will go away :P
23:13:13 <GregorR> It's like methods-vs-blocks in Smalltalk.
23:13:14 <pikhq> It's how "if" and such are implemented ATM.
23:13:43 <pikhq> if(:{x}, {return x});
23:14:03 <GregorR> ehird`: If is a function, you pass it three functions. But, if one of the functions you pass it returns, then the function calling if returns. That makes imperative programming more comfortable, since it does what an imperative programmer expects.
23:14:37 <ehird`> GregorR: yes, i gathered that if was a function. and i get it now
23:14:42 <pikhq> The {return x} function returns x *through* the if, and through the stack, until it returns from a thick function. . .
23:14:42 <ehird`> that sounds like a VERY ugly hack :-)
23:14:56 <GregorR> ehird`: It is. I painted myself into a corner. It will not be around by the time Plof3 is finalized.
23:14:59 <pikhq> It works, but *man* it's ugly.
23:15:11 <ehird`> how is it implemented? please tell me instead of just overriding return, you set the thin function's closure to the enclosing thick one's
23:15:18 <ehird`> so how do you resolve it anyway in plof3?
23:16:02 <GregorR> ehird`: It's just an implementation detail of how 'return' is implemented - it pops up the call stack until it finds a thick function.
23:16:18 <GregorR> Anyway, please, ignore thick-vs-thin, IT'S GOING AWAY
23:16:42 <ehird`> Yes but how do you resolve the issue? ;)
23:16:53 <GregorR> I don't have a resolution yet.
23:17:01 <GregorR> My point is I won't be satisfied until I do ^^
23:17:20 <ehird`> i'm not sure what my perfect language would be
23:17:25 <ehird`> it'd probably include runtime-editable syntax
23:18:08 <ehird`> that is, it'll have a syntax for defining - using the language itself with some sugar for the definitions - new syntax, which can do arbitary transformations - replace code with some other code, execute code at expand-time, etc
23:18:14 <ehird`> an ability to modify previous syntax
23:18:27 <pikhq> If you hate yourself, you could implement longjmp, Gregor. :p
23:18:40 <ehird`> in this way, the "if" syntax would just be sugar for calling if_ (or similar)
23:19:16 <GregorR> ehird`: FYI, you're still defining Plof3.
23:19:28 <GregorR> ehird`: Plof3 is a small stack-language with a runtime parser sitting on top of it.
23:19:36 <ehird`> can plof3 handle INDENTATION-BASED SYNTAX?
23:19:45 <ehird`> because it sends spaces at the beginning of lines as INDENT tokens?!
23:19:55 <ehird`> (and of course DEDENT tokens)
23:20:06 <pikhq> I believe it could.
23:20:10 <GregorR> Tokenization is also defined at runtime.
23:20:18 <ehird`> (python does this too, so basically all you need to do is change "{" to INDENT and "}" to DEDENT)
23:20:33 <GregorR> Plof3's normal user language would just ignore all whitespace, but you can define one that doesn't.
23:20:53 <ehird`> ok well as i can see it you have two seperate languages
23:21:01 <ehird`> stack-based-metalanguage and Plof3
23:21:18 <ehird`> when you say Plof3 you really mean the latter because Plof3 is really entirely defined as that, since the other language is basically unrelateds
23:21:24 <ehird`> so these aren't plof3 features
23:21:33 <pikhq> GregorR: BTW, Plof2 *does* have map.
23:21:35 <ehird`> it's like calling brainfuck with a c interface having all the features of C :-)
23:21:56 <pikhq> (random collection).map(); ;)
23:22:16 <GregorR> ehird`: The grammar engine is entirely modifiable within Plof3 code. If you want to change Plof3's grammar, it's all available to you.
23:22:40 * GregorR has no idea what your complaint is *shrugs*
23:23:08 <pikhq> var foo = new(List);foo.map((x){return({x+1});});
23:23:28 <GregorR> pikhq: I did implement map in my collections? Well, ehird`: there ya go! :P
23:23:41 <GregorR> I'm so focused on Plof3, Plof2 is becoming a distant memory.
23:24:43 <oerjan> "and here in the corner of the channel you have GregorR, who actually constructed a nearly usable language called Plof2 before he went off the deep end with his theories."
23:25:54 <ehird`> i might implement my nice language some time, but without the crazy syntax definitions
23:26:33 <ehird`> i'll make it fast (so you can run reasonably complex programs with it without being much slower than C - for sufficiently large values of "without being much slower") and bind a few libraries to it
23:26:52 <ehird`> the problem with most of my langugae ideas is that they don't work well on a single line
23:26:57 <ehird`> indentation-based blocks, etc
23:27:18 <ehird`> and since one of my goals is to implement a language i find nice, and write an irc bot in it, with daemons programmable in it, that kind of sucks :-)
23:30:14 <ehird`> i can't think of any block syntax that works well on one line apart from lisps s-exprsessions :|
23:30:33 <oerjan> you could borrow haskell's layout <-> { ; } equivalence
23:31:21 <ehird`> right but c-style blocks are pretty ugly on one line
23:31:37 <oerjan> although the parse-error rule which allows you to leave out more { } may be a bit too hairy
23:31:49 <ehird`> if (x) { while (y) { a; b; c }; if (z) { 2 + 2 } } elseif (g) { ... }
23:31:53 <ehird`> uglyyyy and not readable on one line
23:31:56 <oerjan> and it certainly doesn't work with redefinable syntax
23:32:06 <ehird`> no redefinable syntax for this i think
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23:34:13 <ehird`> i guess i could implement if x (y) (z) as an alternate if syntax
23:34:19 <ehird`> but i hate two solutions for one problem in syntax
23:35:25 <oerjan> you could make all parentheses expandable into layout
23:35:35 <ehird`> i don't want to have layout though
23:36:16 <oerjan> um, layout = indentation-based blocks, in haskell
23:36:52 <ehird`> i want some tangible syntax i think
23:41:54 <ehird`> GregorR: any suggestions, you being the crazy language guy? :P
23:42:55 <pikhq> Make it syntaxless. :p
23:43:00 <oerjan> excuse me? are you trying to insult everyone else in the channel?
23:43:11 <ehird`> oerjan: hahaha, i forgot this was #esoteric
23:43:22 <ehird`> pikhq: i actually have a language called syntaxless :p
23:44:52 <ehird`> it has one lexical rule but no syntactical rules
23:45:11 <ehird`> (the lexical rule is "read any number of characters seperated by spaces, tabs or newlines")
23:45:20 <ehird`> syntactical rules would mean it has syntax like nesting, etc.
23:45:26 <ehird`> mine just has one lexical rule, which isn't really syntax
23:50:46 <ehird`> GregorR: but seriously :-)
23:56:48 <ehird`> pikhq: ok, you were talking about plof too. what about you? :P
00:01:58 <pikhq> I suggest you worship before the Shrine to Gregor.
00:12:36 * ehird` worships to GregorR with his above question
00:12:53 <oerjan> if you ask pikhq you will just end up with tcl syntax :)
00:13:22 <GregorR> No, I don't have suggestions :P
00:14:16 <pikhq> oerjan: The Tcl syntax for PEBBLE is *ease of implementation*.
00:14:32 <ehird`> pikhq: WHat's your perfect PEBBLE syntax?
00:15:25 <pikhq> I'd probably go for something sexpy.
00:15:59 <ehird`> pikhq: Um, s-exps are basically as easy as Tcl-style to implement
00:16:11 <pikhq> ehird`: Not really.
00:16:20 <pikhq> My parser: [source foo.tcl]
00:16:41 <ehird`> wait, pebble actually parses through tcl?
00:17:04 <pikhq> PEBBLE is 100% well-formed Tcl.
00:17:27 <ehird`> ok, what's your perfect, non-hijacking syntax for pebble
00:17:33 <ehird`> i.e. platonic ideal, with no boundries
00:17:53 <ehird`> depends on what you are about to say...
00:18:27 <pikhq> None; I would make PEBBLE read your mind for each bit of code. :p
00:18:37 <ehird`> syntax that actually involves syntax
00:18:55 <pikhq> Probably sexpoid, but I dunno.
00:19:11 <pikhq> A *good* syntax is fairly tricky to devise.
00:19:19 <ehird`> sexpoid = plain sexps or something more
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00:23:00 <ehird`> bsmntbom1dood: yeah, X or Y doesn't return a boolean indiscriminately in ANY reasonable language
00:23:02 <pikhq> (plain sexp || something more) == 1
00:23:05 <ehird`> it returns either X or Y
00:23:25 <ehird`> (plain sexp || something more) == plain sexp IF plain sexp ELSE something more
00:23:37 <ehird`> also every other reasonable language ever
00:26:14 <pikhq> (plain sexp || something more) returns either 1 or 0. I declare that it is 1.
00:26:26 <ehird`> bsmntbom1dood: back me up here ;)
00:26:38 <ehird`> but in english it commonly means the same thing
00:26:44 <ehird`> and programming languages - here implied by || - agree with me
00:26:50 <bsmntbom1dood> and in english, "plain sexp or something else" isn't boolean
00:27:32 <ehird`> if it has esr in it - it doesn't matter, full stop
00:28:05 <pikhq> Anyways, you meant either plain sexp or something else. . . And I'm not sure which one yet.
00:28:37 <ehird`> i don't know much about pebble
00:28:53 <ehird`> give me a quick overview of the core commands and semantics will you? i'd like to dabble in it sometime
00:30:01 <pikhq> Declare a variable. . . If you specifiy a location, that's where it will be in Brainfuck memory.
00:30:07 <ehird`> ?? means optional right?
00:30:37 * pikhq groans a bit at the next. . . Why the hell isn't this + and -?
00:30:46 <pikhq> subtract var number
00:31:09 <pikhq> Add or subtract, from var, number.
00:31:30 <ehird`> wait! stop! {...} is string right
00:32:11 <ehird`> explain while's semantics
00:32:20 <pikhq> while(var!=0){code}
00:32:42 <ehird`> i mean in brainfuck :-)
00:32:52 <pikhq> goto var[code goto var]
00:33:40 <pikhq> right number: just ">" number amount of times. . .
00:33:43 <pikhq> left number: same.
00:34:00 <pikhq> at var: tell the compiler that the current location is var.
00:34:37 <pikhq> set var number: set var to number.
00:35:02 <pikhq> macro name {input-args} {output-args} {temp-args} {code}
00:35:18 <pikhq> That'll be called as "name input-args > output-args : temp-args".
00:35:27 <ehird`> WOW okay this needs more explanation (macro)
00:36:29 <pikhq> Let's do set as a macro for demonstration.
00:37:03 <pikhq> macro set {var num} {} {} {
00:37:12 <pikhq> while var {subtract var 1}
00:37:26 <ehird`> that's a bad way to do set, but hehe
00:37:32 <ehird`> so, how is that stored/called
00:37:54 <pikhq> You'd just call *that* as "set foo bar".
00:38:09 <ehird`> what would set foo bar compile to
00:38:28 <pikhq> Let's say you've got a variable foo at location 5. . .
00:38:52 <pikhq> "set foo 5" would compile to the following (assuming we're at location 0):
00:39:11 <ehird`> what do output-args and temp-args do???
00:39:24 <pikhq> Allow for syntactic sugar in some of the more complex macros.
00:39:46 <pikhq> "addvar foo > bar : temp1" is a bit simpler to read than "addvar foo bar temp1".
00:40:20 <pikhq> Those are just more arguments. . .
00:40:55 <ehird`> so output-args and temp-args are just normal args
00:41:02 <ehird`> and the > and : just seperate them
00:41:15 <ehird`> addvar foo > bar : temp1 "add foo to bar using temp1 as the tmp var"
00:42:08 <pikhq> There's a bit more to the language than that, but that's the core of it.
00:42:26 <ehird`> i'm pretty sure i've seen functions in pebble too
00:43:29 <ehird`> macros cannot recurse correct
00:43:45 <pikhq> There's the source command, a couple of commands to make dealing with strings easier, some stuff to talk to the optimizing pass, and a *bunch* of stuff not needed unless you're trying to fiddle with the stdlib. . .
00:44:26 <ehird`> is there native multiplication?
00:44:32 <pikhq> It's a macro in the stdlib.
00:45:53 <pikhq> mulvar a > b : temp1 temp2
00:49:35 <ehird`> http://pastebin.com/m10e58490 factorial
00:49:46 <ehird`> i should probably have res as an output argument
00:49:49 <ehird`> but, it's a minor change
00:50:19 <ehird`> (vars default to 0 iirc)
00:52:29 <ehird`> pikhq: i think it is, but im not sure
00:53:14 <ehird`> ignore tmp :-) it's useless
00:53:28 <ehird`> and s/while tmp/while n
00:53:42 <ehird`> pikhq: http://pastebin.com/m8734736 updated
00:53:57 <GregorR> TODAY AND THE NOW IS SUPER DANCE EXPLOSION TIME
00:54:03 <pikhq> I'd take the temp variables as arguments, though.
00:54:13 <ehird`> final version: http://pastebin.com/m8d6c22f
00:54:24 <ehird`> fact a > b : tmp1 tmp2 is "b = a!"
00:54:33 <ehird`> is that all right? :-)
00:54:48 <pikhq> Hmm. Why set res 1?
00:55:05 <pikhq> That's exactly right.
00:55:39 <ehird`> I'll code more PEBBLE tomorrow :-)
00:55:53 <ehird`> hey, i mgiht write an EsoAPI (or similar) interface for it
00:55:56 <ehird`> bot written in pebble!
00:56:25 <pikhq> I planned the same for a while.
00:56:33 <pikhq> Right now, I'm waiting on PSOX. ;p
00:56:55 <ehird`> i don't like waiting :P
00:56:59 <ehird`> PSOX is overengineered anyway
00:57:12 <ehird`> (if Sgeo now says "Wait, what?" instead of ACTUALLY READING, please kill him for me)
00:57:17 <ehird`> byebye for today, see you tomorrow
00:59:11 <GregorR> I wonder if anybody makes a battery-powered USB device charger.
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01:03:16 <pikhq> It's called a laptop.
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01:11:09 <pikhq> And a violation of the USB spec besides.
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01:16:26 <pikhq> The USB spec grants every device a *very small* amount of power, so that it can at least negotiate power needs. . .
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01:16:58 <pikhq> Most power-through-usb devices don't negotiate this; they merely go and take power from USB.
01:17:18 <pikhq> The worst part is, they usually try to take more power than the USB spec even *allows* any one device to have.
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01:55:38 <GregorR> Oh my GOD, people NOT COMPLYING TO A STANDARD? It's almost like we're in some filthy HUMAN society!
01:55:57 <pikhq> GregorR: It's just in bad taste.
01:56:48 <GregorR> If my video watch didn't charge from USB, that would be one more port on it. That's hard to swing.
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02:20:18 <pikhq> GregorR: Or it'd negotiate the power as needed by the USB spec.
02:20:38 <pikhq> (as well as a nice data channel)
02:21:51 <GregorR> For all I know, it does :P
02:22:02 <GregorR> And it does have a nice data channel.
02:22:08 <GregorR> For, y'know, transferring files.
02:49:21 * pikhq whistles innocently here, too
03:01:24 * Sgeo_ wonders if anyone uses BF-RLE
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03:19:53 <Sgeo_> Welcome back sp3tt
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05:06:27 <ihope> ais523's won a Wolfram research prize?
05:08:15 <ihope> Not the 2,3 Turing machine thing?
05:17:35 <pikhq> Well, it's not like we have stupid people in here.
05:32:02 * bsmntbom1dood skimmed the proof and quit after the first few words
05:35:03 <Sgeo_> What's it about, and where can I find it?
05:36:45 <ihope> http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/solution_news.html
05:36:58 <bsmntbom1dood> wolfram proposed a 2,3 turing machine and offered $25k for a proof of (un)/completeness
05:38:47 <bsmntbom1dood> it would be cool to have a proof that it's the simplest utm
05:38:56 <ihope> Haven't all the simpler ones been tried?
05:42:22 <bsmntbom1dood> it's funny how people think that the machine is applicable
05:42:44 <bsmntbom1dood> "it could be implemented in a molecule", yeah, that's useful
05:43:07 <ihope> Seems a cellular automaton would be more useful for that.
05:43:24 <ihope> And we have plenty of simple cellular automata.
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05:50:45 <ihope> And here's that USAMO one of my classmates took: http://www.mathlinks.ro/Forum/resources.php?c=182&cid=27&year=2007
05:51:10 <ihope> Or maybe it's just similar to it.
05:51:59 <ihope> No, that's probably the one. Seems that you should be able to make a primitive dinosaur of any size.
05:53:06 <pikhq> ihope: Obviously, a primitive dinosaur is 2007*2-1. . .
05:54:14 <ihope> You can have bigger primitive dinosaurs.
05:54:39 <ihope> Wait, at least 2007 cells...
05:54:40 <pikhq> Show me one larger dinosaur that is primitive.
05:54:50 <pikhq> At least 2007 cells?
05:55:06 <pikhq> I thought it was "dinosaur has 2007 cells".
05:55:52 <pikhq> Anyways, yeah. Anything larger than 2007*2-1 is not primitive.
05:56:13 <ihope> Start with one square, then attach to each side a line of length 2006.
05:56:49 <ihope> You get a big cross with 2007*4 - 3 squares.
05:57:03 <ihope> Divide that into dinosaurs for me.
05:57:18 <pikhq> And that question is deceptively subtle.
05:57:31 <pikhq> This is why I'm not in the math olympiad.
05:58:25 <ihope> The question is how to make that bigger.
05:58:38 <ihope> Or whether that's even possible.
06:00:10 * pikhq salutes whoever can prove that
06:00:21 <ihope> I'm pretty sure 2007*4 - 3 is the best, now.
06:01:37 <ihope> Suppose S is a dinosaur. S is primitive if and only if for all subdinosaurs of S, S minus that subdinosaur contains something that is not a dinosaur.
06:03:34 <ihope> Suppose T is a subdinosaur of S. If the union of T with all non-dinosaur fragments of S-T is a proper subdinosaur of S, then S is not primitive.
06:04:57 <bsmntbom1dood> esoteric programming, not esoteric paleantology...
06:07:52 <ihope> Conjecture: all non-primitive dinosaurs can be divided into dinosaurs containing no loops.
06:08:03 <ihope> This should be easy to disprove, unfortunately.
06:09:37 <ihope> And if it can be proven, it's probably quite hard.
06:13:23 <ihope> Suppose T is a subdinosaur of S. If S is primitive, then no superdinosaur of the union of T with all non-dinosaur fragments of S - T is a proper subdinosaur of S.
06:14:34 <ihope> No, I want to go the other way. If for all subdinosaurs T of S, no superdinosaur of the union of T with all non-dinosaur fragments of S - T is a proper subdinosaur of S, then S is primitive.
06:16:05 <ihope> Maybe the problem IS going the other way.
06:16:48 <ihope> ...which is the first way.
06:18:18 <ihope> Now I'm too tired to understand what I've written, so I'll be going to bed immediately.
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11:07:09 <oklopol> (bsmntbom1dood) and in english, "plain sexp or something else" isn't boolean <<< it's either boolean or either of those
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11:22:59 <oklopol> (ihope) Suppose S is a dinosaur. S is primitive if and only if for all subdinosaurs of S, S minus that subdinosaur contains something that is not a dinosaur. <<< er... don't think so, say you have a gazillion cells in a row, if you cut it in the middle, you get two dinosaurs, if you just cut one off one end, you get a dinosaur, and a non-dinosaur
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03:03:21 <pikhq> We don't need no water!
03:03:35 <pikhq> Let the motherfucker burn.
03:04:02 <oklopol> school in 3 hours! PARTIIIII!!
03:04:13 <oklopol> i'm gonna get me some coffee ->
03:04:41 <oklopol> i used an hour for schoolwork just now, i think this is somewhat of a record.
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15:03:42 <ehird`> pikhq: i am going to write a PEBBLE compiler in PEBBLE. parsing and all. :-)
15:07:58 <ehird`> pikhq: i'll do ->BF first then ->C, so eventually it'll be completely self-hosting
15:08:38 <ehird`> (most likely bootstrap path: distrobution includes BF version set to compile to C, you run it on the code, which produces a C version, which is the compiler you use (also the compiler used to produce the bf version))
15:13:48 <ehird`> pikhq: how does eval work?
15:13:52 <ehird`> i mean you are compiling
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16:02:22 <ehird`> i wonder what an average complex brainfuck program has in brackets?
16:02:25 <ehird`> i.e. how many [ and ]s
16:02:38 <ehird`> i'd bet, even LostKingdom, less than 10,000
16:03:43 <RodgerTheGreat> ehird`: I was actually discussing that with pikhq yesterday
16:04:20 <ehird`> a PEBBLE-in-PEBBLE compiler?
16:04:28 <ehird`> yeah, i think it should be pretty trivial actually looking at pebble's source
16:04:37 <ehird`> but pebble does not have string operations afaik
16:04:40 <ehird`> which kind of, uh, sucks :P
16:05:40 <ehird`> you could ditch tcl FOREVERRRRRR! :p
16:06:25 <RodgerTheGreat> Once I finish my own BF metalanguage, I think I'll take a crack at implementing a Sprocket interpreter. :)
16:07:45 <ehird`> how many [s and ]s does lostkingdom have?
16:10:08 * ehird` would check ,but is on windows
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16:51:01 <ehird`> $&£*(&£$*&£*($&("*&£(8&(&!)(*)(*£)("£&*"^*&"£^*&"£^98&!(*"&£(*"^£&*"£^"*&£^"*£&"£ERROR <-- lousy connection
16:51:54 <ehird`> does it compile like forth does
16:52:19 <ehird`> forth is only interesting for its compiling semantics :P
16:53:09 <RodgerTheGreat> Sprocket is interesting because it's an extremely elegant stack-based language supporting clever uses of recursion and polymorphic code
16:53:29 <ehird`> Show Me Example Code(TM)
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16:54:40 <RodgerTheGreat> simple example, but here's a fibonacci sequence generator: http://nonlogic.org/dump/text/1193673235.html
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16:55:58 <ehird`> braces - (), [], {} - are the only acceptable syntax in a stack language ;)
17:09:48 <ehird`> I just wrote the most elaborate brainfuck compiler /ever/
17:10:09 <ehird`> It doesn't require reading the program into memory, and doesn't use a stack to handle [ and ] - it can handle pretty much infinite
17:10:21 <ehird`> also, it does the basic optimizations like "times"
17:18:00 <ehird`> my interpreter is 122 lines, and i haven't wrote the actual interpreter yet
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18:56:32 <ehird`> we program in silly toy esoteric languages all day
18:57:48 <ehird`> you'll fit right in here
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19:05:41 <DawnLight> where its always war but not actually
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20:29:28 <ehird`> my interp is breaking randomly
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20:35:25 <bartw> what kind of language are you interpretting ?
20:37:30 <ehird`> i'm interpreting brainfuck
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20:39:08 <bartw> hmz, maybe you should try jitting the bf
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20:39:24 <ehird`> but i am doing lots of parsing
20:39:26 <ttm> Do you know who the competition is?
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20:39:59 <ehird`> ttm: "who the competition is"?
20:40:18 <ttm> http://www.swapped.cc/bf/ was the fastest brainfuck interpreter in C last I checked.
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20:40:58 <GregorR> egobfc2m beats it by cheating.
20:41:09 <ehird`> ttm: its littered with one-letter vars
20:41:16 <ehird`> i don't feel like reading obfuscated code ;)
20:41:23 <ehird`> anyway mine is probably slow, i guess
20:41:39 <GregorR> egobfc2m compiles the Brainfuck code into memory and calls it as a function, so it's not really an interpreter at all :P
20:41:53 <ehird`> GregorR: impressive... is it open source?
20:41:56 <ttm> I wasn't suggesting reading it, just using it as a benchmark :)
20:42:04 <GregorR> ehird`: Yeah, it's part of the EgoBF suite.
20:42:13 <ehird`> GregorR: is the single file available anywhere? :p
20:42:20 <GregorR> It's in the files archive.
20:42:25 <ehird`> ttm: mine is pretty simple
20:42:50 <ehird`> i have an instruction struct INS, { char id, int times, int line, int pos, INS *next, INS *up, INS *down }
20:43:12 <ehird`> up is the loop body for [ instructions
20:43:17 <ehird`> inside a loop, it's the first instruction of the loop
20:43:25 <ehird`> down is NULL for top-level, one loop level up for everything else
20:43:49 <ehird`> i parse [ and ] by not parsing them at all - i take advantage of those properties and overwriting the current "append here" pointer
20:45:30 <ehird`> i have a very weird bug though
20:46:05 <ehird`> so, it works fine... but i have ] straight after [, with a loop body inside it
20:46:07 <ttm> Everyone sees that >>>> and ---- translate as single instructions. But I don't know how many people spotted that [[[[ and ]]]] do as well.
20:46:18 <ehird`> ttm: Hm, you're right.
20:46:26 <ehird`> ttm: [[[[ is just [, isn't it?
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20:47:01 <ehird`> Cool, then i can optimize every instruction apart from , and .
20:47:46 <ehird`> technically i could "optimize" , and . with a for loop
20:47:49 <ehird`> but that's just wasteful
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20:49:17 <ehird`> does anyone know what the average maximum recursion depth is in C
20:50:26 <GregorR> There is no average, it depends entirely on the space complexity of the functions involved.
20:52:24 <ehird`> it's just this: http://rafb.net/p/toOH6P60.html
20:52:32 <ehird`> so i was wondering if i could get away with making it recurse ;)
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20:53:29 <ehird`> but if anyone knows why - from [abc] - instead of [(abc) it's becoming [(](abc)) {where X(Y) means "X, which has up property Y"... i.e. "X with loop body Y"}
20:53:33 <ehird`> then i'd appreciate it ;)
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20:59:14 <ttm> It's 1 PM, so I should get some sleep.
21:18:41 <ehird`> my bf interp is plotting against me and refusing to work
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21:48:40 <ehird`> there are no good names for brainfuck interpreters any more :|
21:49:44 <GregorR> ehirdsbrainfuckinterpreterimplementedincforyourenjoyment.c
21:51:23 <ehird`> to use for everything :P
21:52:58 <ehird`> i am not a psychologist, oerjan
21:54:29 <GregorR> And/or scat porn, but I'm going to lean in another direction.
21:54:33 <ehird`> it's the next level of tubgirl
21:55:28 <oerjan> Nos-, Vos- and iirc Ea-, to complete the pronouns
21:55:57 <ehird`> (err, that is latin right)
21:56:39 <GregorR> Go Spanish. La-. LaBF = labf = lab F :P
21:58:26 <oerjan> to continue the Ego- into spanish
21:58:57 <GregorR> Weeell, "Yo" means "I", so that's a bit of a stretch.
21:59:23 <ehird`> the only reason i'm asking
21:59:31 <ehird`> is that "fsbfi" sounds ugly
21:59:36 <ehird`> (Fast Simple Brainfuck Interpreter)
21:59:46 <GregorR> Well, yeah, it is, I guess ...
21:59:48 <oerjan> Yo surely is descended from Ego
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22:02:34 <ehird`> i just can't think of a catchy interpreter name, haha
22:05:05 <ehird`> GregorR: now where have i heard that before
22:09:53 <bartw> bsbfi sounds like a videodriver name
22:17:20 <bsmntbombdood> Before attempting fisting, a Christian husband and wife should pray together and ask for divine guidance. The husband should ask that God guide his hand and work through him, and for the skill and patience to fist his wife correctly and maximize her pleasure. The wife should pray for openness and readiness to receive God’s love and grace in the form of her husband’s hand.
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22:28:51 <bsmntbombdood> It must depict only married couples engaging in sexual acts; It must portray sex within the context of a Christian marriage; It must be instructional; Husband and wife must both receive their due benevolence; No extramarital sex, unless it is to illustrate the downfalls of adultery; It must be uplifting and inspirational, focusing on strengthening Christian marriage and Christian faith; No profanity
22:29:57 <ehird`> christian porn? isn't porn a sin in christianity or something?
22:30:27 <bsmntbombdood> a common misconception, according to http://www.sexinchrist.com/pornography.html
22:30:37 <ehird`> i'm not going to click, for my sanity
22:30:41 <ehird`> i hope you respect my decision
22:32:56 <ehird`> is it safe for mind though?
22:33:27 <bsmntbombdood> my mind has sufficient control over what enters it to make everything safe for mind
22:33:37 <bsmntbombdood> you'll have to make you own decision regarding that
22:38:17 <GregorR> I can't imagine pornography is explictly a sin, the technology required for the sin didn't exist when the sins were invented :P
22:52:00 <ehird`> should output \1 then exit right
22:53:10 <ehird`> but now with this new version
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23:02:51 <ehird`> lostkng works in my interp
23:04:53 <ehird`> about 1 second from starting to seeing the intro text
23:06:35 <ehird`> lostkng does a hell of a lot before printing the text...
23:06:48 <ehird`> once you see the intro text it's basically all loaded
23:14:53 <ehird`> penguin benchmark avocado
23:15:29 <ehird`> immibis coil fortress modulo sailing
23:16:18 <immibis> what are you talking about
23:16:38 <ehird`> deftly turtle english markup
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23:22:31 <oerjan> immibis: do you know that your quit message tends to be cut off?
23:23:08 <immibis> Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC.
23:23:12 <immibis> and then a random quit message
23:23:49 <oerjan> except i never see more than a few words of the latter.
23:24:37 * immibis abbreviates it, quits and reconnects
23:24:43 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC. Why is the ).
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23:25:51 -!- immibis has joined.
23:26:22 <oerjan> the first one ended Why is the ), the second had no message (probably because you didn't stay logged in long enough)
23:27:02 * immibis can see his own quit message, thanks.
23:27:26 * immibis abbreviated it in his client's settings but evidently it didn't take effect yet
23:34:32 <immibis> does anyone here have any experience with Direct Sound (on a gameboy advance, not the directx one) or know anyone who does?
23:37:57 <immibis> if anyone does, http://www.speedyshare.com/924952283.html is the output of my attempt at making a wav player for gba
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00:53:59 <pikhq> ehird`: Any further clues on PEBBLE in PEBBLE?
00:54:17 <ehird`> pikhq: no, i haven't tried today :( sorry
00:54:24 <ehird`> pikhq: tomorrow, though, i'll do it
00:54:26 <oerjan> It's pebbles all the way down!
00:54:30 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: i'm going to write a pebble compiler in pebble
00:54:41 <ehird`> and vanquish the evil tcl... from my version, at least.
00:54:50 <ehird`> i mean, the compiler for pebble looks pretty trivial
00:55:00 <ehird`> but, no string manip in PEBBLE iirc, so a bit harder
00:55:03 <bsmntbombdood> for some reason i just started downloading 2gb of nigel kennedy >_<
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01:26:45 <ehird`> pikhq: hmm, what would pebble-in-pebble mean for pfuck?
01:26:50 <ehird`> i'm sure there's some profound implication
01:31:25 <ehird`> would the universe explode?
01:31:28 <ehird`> would it go 50 times faster?
01:35:12 <ehird`> pikhq: IT WOULD ENVELOP AWESOMENESS INTO ITS COMPILED CODE
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01:36:17 <pikhq> It would merely be amusingly recursive.
01:36:36 <ehird`> pebble.b src/lotsofstuff.pebble
01:36:52 <ehird`> pebble.b, compiled with PFUCK, running under a C version of PEBBLE, compiled by pebble.b
01:37:47 <pikhq> pebble compiles pebble.bfm. pfuck compiles pebble.b. gcc compiles pebble.c. pebble comipiles pfuck.bfm. pfuck compiles pfuck.b. gcc compiles pfuck.c.
01:38:01 <ehird`> (bfm? that's pebble, right?)
01:38:12 <pikhq> (I use the .bfm prefix still)
01:38:22 <ehird`> ok, right, i'll explain, in PEBBLE/tcl and PEBBLE/pebble:
01:38:32 <ehird`> PEBBLE/tcl, long time ago, compiles pebble.bfm
01:38:50 <ehird`> PEBBLE/tcl, long time ago, compiles pebble.bfm to-C: now it's PEBBLE/pebbleC
01:39:05 <ehird`> PEBBLE/pebbleC runs PFUCK, compiles pebble.bfm
01:39:27 <ehird`> (producing PEBBLE/pebbleBF)
01:39:50 <ehird`> of course, since PEBBLE/pebble's output - BF and C - will not always be identical to PEBBLE/tcl
01:40:02 <ehird`> there are more iterations of PEBBLE/pebbleC compiling pebble.bfm to-C in "LATER"
01:41:41 <pikhq> I'd consider pebble.bfm to be *another* implementation of PEBBLE; I'd still maintain pebble.tcl. ;)
01:41:47 <pikhq> And, yeah, that is crazy.
01:42:10 * pikhq assumes pebble.bfm, for a first run, at least, would not support optimization, language-specific macros, etc.
01:42:25 <ehird`> (For bootstrapping, of course. What do you mean, it may be useful as an implementation? Pff. Surely you jest. pebble.tcl would not come out of my hands originally! My logic is infallable. I do not suffer from NIH-overload.)
01:42:37 <ehird`> yeah, i would implement those after though
01:44:10 <ehird`> pikhq: pebble.bfm - the revolution begins tomorrow! ;)
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01:46:31 * pikhq wants to see how ehird handles the "source" command.
02:30:16 <pikhq> Someone appears to be suggesting that ais523's 2,3 Turing machine proof is inaccurate. . .
02:33:03 <pikhq> We of #esoteric should make the news by fixing that. ;p
02:38:45 <bsmntbombdood> it's funny that a single mailing list post is enough for slashdot to post
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02:39:26 <pikhq> I'd need to review the proof quite thouroughly before being sure the mailing list post is at all correct.
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02:55:36 <GregorR> homeworkd(1): Assigns homework based on crond scheduling.
02:59:19 <bsmntbombdood> transcription to extended ipa would be a fun speach compression method
03:33:18 <RodgerTheGreat> I recently came up with what I think is a fairly robust BF "While x> constant n: do code" construct
03:33:44 <RodgerTheGreat> I will use the notation n(stuff) to represent "stuff" being repeated n times
03:34:11 <RodgerTheGreat> x, tmp and flag are variable cells, and zero is initialized to be a constant zero
03:35:01 <RodgerTheGreat> x [ flag [-] n( [x - tmp + ) [ code flag + zero ] n( ] ) tmp [ - x + tmp ] flag ]
03:45:37 <RodgerTheGreat> I think it might be possible to do with fewer cells, but 1 cell for x and an overhead of 3 doesn't seem too bad for a reasonably high-level construct
03:58:50 <RodgerTheGreat> Is there a good general approach to string generation when you allow temporary space, or do most people do it with genetic algorithms/ brute force/ dynamic programming?
03:59:37 <pikhq> And the amount of temporary space.
04:01:01 <RodgerTheGreat> and the emphasis is on a "good, general" approach rather than simply a "good" approach
04:05:46 <pikhq> Well, you *could* do what PEBBLE does. . .
04:06:01 <pikhq> It ain't terribly good, but it's general.
04:06:38 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: It just uses two-cell wrapping implementations of the constants to add and subtract from a cell. . .
04:06:53 <RodgerTheGreat> the algorithm is very straightforward if you try generating strings from a single cell
04:07:03 <pikhq> It doesn't work too badly for a naive algorithm.
04:07:28 <RodgerTheGreat> I suppose that'd generate decent output, but clearly far from optimal
04:12:08 <pikhq> If it's good, I may well include it in PEBBLE.
04:14:15 <RodgerTheGreat> maybe try to find numbers that meet a balance between being the most common in the target string and the furthest apart from one another?
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04:42:55 <ttm> I'm looking at this "while". If n=3 then it translates as
04:42:59 <ttm> x tmp flag zero
04:42:59 <ttm> [>>[-][<<->+[<->+[<->+[code>+>]]]]<<[-<+>]>]
04:47:15 <ttm> That can't be right. For one thing, it has a ][ in it.
04:47:50 <immibis> yes. removing the ][, you get [>>[-]<<[-<+>]>]
04:47:53 <bsmntbombdood> what's the brainfuck for taking [n, 0, 0, ...] to [n, n*2, n*3, ..., n*m, 0, 0 ...]?
04:48:12 <immibis> which never executes the code.
04:48:46 <RodgerTheGreat> good catch- you need to move to x after zeroing flag, before you begin the if block
04:49:01 <ttm> bsmnt how confident are you that all values will fit in a byte?
04:49:22 <ttm> Okay. Let's think then.
04:50:55 <ttm> x tmp flag zero
04:50:55 <ttm> [>>[-]<<[->+[<->+[<->+[code>+>]]]]<<[-<+>]>]?
04:58:52 <ttm> Hm. Still can't be right. [>>[-]<<[->+<[->+<[->+<[code>>+>]]]]<<[-<+>]>] is probably getting closer...
05:01:24 <ttm> bsmnt is m stored in memory, and are we okay with wiping it out? Or is it constant?
05:08:35 <RodgerTheGreat> the two things that must occur in the main [] set with code are that flag is set to "true" (nonzero), and we move to constant zero to break out of all our nested brackets
05:08:57 <ttm> That's clear.
05:11:32 <ttm> What's not entirely clear is how the outermost loop is supposed to match up. We started it at x, and we end it at flag. So we need some code near the start of the outermost loop to resynch the pointer location...and we also need to leave ourselves a way, after we break out of that outer loop, to check on whether we went through it at all.
05:17:13 <RodgerTheGreat> if we make it to the innermost loop and execute code, flag is set, and we continue the main while loop, and it's reset for the next iteration
05:22:26 <ttm> Yeah...but if we end the main while loop at flag, when we started it at x, then the code will not be acting on the same things unless we add other code to insure the pointer is at the same place in both cases.
05:22:59 <ttm> Whereas if we start the main loop at flag both times, then it won't have the correct value at first unless we add extra code first to set it...
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05:30:29 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I need to sleep. I'll look this over again in the morning, and think about some revisions
05:30:41 <ttm> Good night and good luck.
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06:00:20 <bsmntbombdood> although that would get inneficient when n is small
06:10:42 <ttm> Ah. I was trying to figure the most concise way to do it with variable m.
06:12:00 <bsmntbombdood> it would be cool if there was a way to do it without all the redundant +s
06:14:30 <ttm> Well, if you put m just to the right of where you want the last one to end up, you can do [<[+<]+[>]<-]
06:20:06 <ttm> And...you're right. You can do it once, but it won't work right twice let alone n times.
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06:26:09 <ttm> It works if you space them out. for m=5 we have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>,[<<+++++[<[+<<]+[>>]<-]<[<<]>>[[<+>-]>>]>-]<<<<.<<.<<.<<.<<.
06:39:50 <ttm> There should be some really clever concise way to do this without using so much apparatus. But I'm not seeing it right now.
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08:21:02 <DawnLight> i need a command that will print a certain number of byes from a serial port and quit!
08:21:40 <immibis> a command in what language
08:23:03 <DawnLight> cat works the way it does because files have endings but /dev/ttyS0 doesn't
08:23:31 <DawnLight> that's also true about inotail and dog doesn't read it at all
08:25:30 <immibis> try 'head -cNUMBER_OF_BYTES /dev/ttyS0'
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12:25:25 <AnMaster> btw, somewhat insane optimizing brainfuck compiler coded in bash: http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/bzr/index.py/get/bashfuck/head/bashfuck
12:25:31 <AnMaster> there are still a few bugs to fix in it
12:25:56 <AnMaster> it does have some problems with LostKng.b, some off by one error that I'm trying to find
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15:56:57 <ehird`> does any known BF interp optimize [+>-+<-] to []?
16:04:05 <oklopol> that's a trivial optimization
16:04:36 <oklopol> "+-" -> "", "><" -> "", actually, many of my bf's would do that too
16:05:12 <ehird`> mine is going to do that
16:05:41 <ehird`> it'll optimize in a loop
16:06:02 <ehird`> then it'll see +-, so []
16:09:23 <oklopol> i assume it optimizes any string of +
16:09:38 <oklopol> i assume it optimizes any string of +'s and -'s into one with just one of them
16:09:39 <ehird`> but that's how mine does it
16:09:49 <ehird`> i have a "modify" instruction
16:10:07 <oklopol> yeah i did it that way too
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16:26:20 <ehird`> http://cs.nyu.edu/pipermail/fom/2007-October/012156.html
16:26:23 <ehird`> found this on reddit...
16:37:30 <ehird`> people seem to be disagreeing
16:38:02 <oerjan> it's a fundamental added subtlety when you have things like CAs with infinite initial state
16:39:06 <ehird`> this crappy page on pi is hilarious
16:39:08 <ehird`> "*known to be over 5 billion digits long"
16:39:31 <ehird`> (this is from 1997, and has MIDI background music)
16:41:06 * cherez chortles his posterior off.
16:41:17 <cherez> ehird`: Where's this pi page?
16:41:29 <ehird`> http://members.aol.com/loosetooth/info.html
16:41:39 <ehird`> *the equivalent of 180 degrees when measured in radians
16:41:43 <ehird`> you know i don't think that's coincidential!
16:43:37 <cherez> "If pi were just 3, then we wouldn't have circles at all!"
16:45:20 <cherez> "At the end of most Macintosh source codes."
16:45:36 <cherez> Whenever I port stuff to Mac, I define pi at the end of the file.
16:45:45 <ehird`> it's probably a magic number
16:46:11 <ehird`> what's the most efficient way of parsing brainfuck [ ... ]s when using instruction structs?
16:46:17 <ehird`> (i.e. you can't store positions in code in a stack)
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16:50:43 <DawnLight> is it ok if i come here once in a while asking questions that will probably be irrelevant to the channel but which i assume someone here may know the answer for? and they may be dumb questions. and they may be questions for which the answers may be a few pages of reading away from me. so can i do that?
16:52:25 <oerjan> well everyone here does that, but it would be nice if you were on-topic occasionally :)
16:52:29 <oklopol> no, this channel never gets offtopic, try asking something irrelevant and you get banned instantly
16:53:15 <oerjan> we agree completely, as you can see
16:53:39 <ehird`> we agree completely IN THE SKY
16:53:55 * oerjan just learned that expression
16:53:59 <oklopol> did i guess the rest of the song correct?
16:55:14 <oklopol> or better yet! i should make it unlambda ;)
16:55:20 <oerjan> alas, it was just something i banged on my keyboard
16:55:50 <ololobot> -> [['i', ('s', 'i', 'i')], ['i', ('s', 'i', 'i')]]
16:56:01 <oklopol> oerjan: tell that to your computer next time you just "bang on your keyboard" and erase all your files.
16:56:51 <ololobot> kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk -> [['i', ('s', 'i', '.k')], ['.k', ('s', 'i', '.k')]]
16:57:02 <oklopol> yeah, it just terminates at some point
16:57:14 <oklopol> should i make it crash instead?
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16:57:35 <ehird`> make it detect infinite loops
16:57:41 <oerjan> as a mad genius to another, i say make it take over the world
16:57:53 <oklopol> MWAHAHAHA IT ALREADY DOES THAT!
16:57:55 <ehird`> store all previous states, if it returns to a previous state, output "infinite loop, reached [matching state]"
16:58:07 <ehird`> ski programs are not going to be big enough to make that slow :P
16:58:45 <oerjan> hm, what about making Alabama sink into the ocean?
16:58:57 <oklopol> that's a pretty useless optimization, since they only help with small progs like ```sii``sii, and irc bots never get short programs, it's always something huge.
16:58:58 <DawnLight> i need a linux command that will take some ascii as stdin and give raw bytes in stdout. for example, i give it 400132 and it gives me three bytes, 40, 01 and 32
16:59:55 <oklopol> btw. don't use it while i code, i could disable it, but i trust you
17:00:27 <ehird`> a bf interpreter using mmap
17:02:24 <oerjan> hm, can hexdump work in reverse?
17:02:55 <ehird`> i mean you can't do a stack, with a struct
17:03:27 <oerjan> you can if it contains a pointer to the next one
17:03:42 <ehird`> right, but that's O(n) bracket matching
17:04:11 <oerjan> well obviously loops will be implemented as a unit
17:04:26 <ehird`> what do you mean oerjan?
17:04:41 <ehird`> i mean like this does http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/sbi.c
17:04:53 <oklopol> uh, i just love python sometimes, i need to reindent every line, because it decided "indentation mixes spaces and tabs"
17:04:58 <oklopol> even though it totally doesn't.
17:05:10 <ehird`> indentation using both is forbidden in python
17:05:13 <ehird`> you can either use tabs or spaces
17:05:32 <oerjan> um, you can have a stack of currently open loops being parsed
17:05:54 <oerjan> that stack could be a linked list
17:06:03 <ehird`> that's what sbi.c does, kind of
17:06:09 <ehird`> but is it the fastest way?
17:06:31 <ehird`> i'm trying to make the parsing very quick in this interp, because the optimization step will be very heavy
17:06:47 <ehird`> the interpreting part is already compact, so if i can get the parsing fast too...
17:06:51 <ehird`> then i can concentrate on optimizations
17:07:55 <oklopol> interpreting will take too little to notice compared to the optimization even if you *try* to make it slow.
17:10:31 <oklopol> okay, i'll make the loop checker now
17:10:39 <oklopol> got everything reindented :P
17:10:47 <ehird`> IDLE can do that for you
17:14:02 <ehird`> make it output where it finds it
17:14:05 <ehird`> i.e. the frame that it finds to repeat
17:15:18 <oklopol> glah, why isn't there a "return from whole recursion", like in oklotalk :<
17:15:44 <ehird`> if (recurse) == None: return None
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17:17:52 <oklopol> i just realized that is not a trivial problem
17:18:08 <oklopol> given my current implementation, that is
17:18:33 <ehird`> then, each reduction step
17:18:54 <ehird`> self.say("OMG " + frame + " REPEATS")
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17:19:17 <oklopol> i do evaluation recursively
17:19:38 <oklopol> it's not trivial in that case, but this won't take long anyway
17:20:04 <oklopol> i did exactly that, and now ```sii``sii evaluates i twice and says it's an infinite loop
17:20:14 <oklopol> it's not trivial, but it's easy
17:21:14 <oklopol> i mean, it's trivial if my next attemp works, if not, then i'll have to think a bit
17:22:07 <ololobot> Infinite loop detected at [('s', 'i', 'i'), ('s', 'i', 'i')]
17:22:55 <oklopol> i think i have a function to make that into an unlambda-like string, wait
17:23:05 <ehird`> >>> sk ``kh```sii``sii
17:23:06 <ololobot> Infinite loop detected at [('k', 'h'), [['i', ('s', 'i', 'i')], ['i', ('s', 'i', 'i')]]]
17:23:25 <ehird`> it isn't lazily evaluating
17:23:41 <ehird`> ``kxy should only evaluate x
17:24:04 <oklopol> this is the ski part of unlambda
17:24:29 <ehird`> so make it SKI and make it lazy :-)
17:24:41 <ehird`> so, what IS the most efficient method of matching braces brainfuck?
17:24:45 <oklopol> i can make k, i'm not making it fully lazy.
17:24:47 <ehird`> presumably not looping through teh program
17:25:17 <oklopol> oh, actually, i'm not making even k lazy.
17:25:28 <oklopol> now that i glanced at my code, and saw i'd have to do something.
17:26:24 <oerjan> ehird`: when you see a [ you start the parser recursively?
17:26:39 <ehird`> oerjan: recursion is bad though :/
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17:27:15 <oerjan> equivalently, you push your current block on the stack, and start an empty one
17:27:33 <ehird`> that's pretty slow in this case though too
17:27:52 <ehird`> i just wonder, with my really simple struct what the most efficient way is to parse braces
17:28:01 <ehird`> that should return `45 :|
17:30:59 <oklopol> >>> sk ``s`kr``s``si`k.*`ki 4
17:31:00 <ololobot> -> ('s', ('k', 'r'), ('s', ('s', 'i', ('k', '.*')), ('k', 'i')))
17:32:36 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure that worked in the past...
17:33:05 <ehird`> im pretty sure that's k
17:33:43 <oklopol> it doesn't optimize, it does the trick on the unlambda page
17:34:23 <ehird`> >>> pl `^x`$x$x^x`$x$x
17:34:26 <ehird`> (gosh that syntax is ugly)
17:34:30 <oklopol> pl works, no doubt about it, it's the sk i'm worried about
17:35:05 <oklopol> shouldn't `4 5 exponentiate 4^5 :\
17:35:15 <oklopol> using the representation on the unlambda pge
17:35:32 <ololobot> -> ('s', ('s', ('k', 's'), 'k'), ('s', ('s', ('k', 's'), 'k'), ('s', ('s', ('k', 's'), 'k'), 'i')))
17:36:03 <oklopol> >>> sk ` ``s`k.i``s``si`k.*`ki 4
17:36:08 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
17:36:19 <oklopol> >>> sk ` ``s`k.i``s``si`k.*`ki ` 4 5
17:36:25 <oklopol> >>> sk ` ``s`k.i``s``si`k.*`ki ` 4 3
17:36:26 <ololobot> *********************************************************************************i -> i
17:36:38 <oklopol> kay, it works, i just fail @ unlambda.
17:37:09 <oklopol> 4^5 is a big number, i also failed at math :))
17:37:36 <oklopol> if the result is too long, it just produces no output currently
17:37:56 <oklopol> omg, where's my time! it's 19:37 already :<
17:38:03 * ehird` wonders how to do "for i=0 to i=N, ..." in ski
17:38:19 <oklopol> use a different representation
17:39:31 <ehird`> You would think parsing [] really quickly would be simple. :-|
17:40:25 <oklopol> >>> ` ``s`k.i``s``si`k.o`k. sk ```s``si`k``s``s``s``si`ki`k`ki`k`ki`s``s`ksk`k`k`kk4 5
17:40:35 <oklopol> >>> ` ``s`k.i``s``si`k.o`k. sk ```s``si`k``s``s``s``si`ki`k`ki`k`ki`s``s`ksk`k`k`kk6 5
17:40:54 <oklopol> >>> ```s``si`k``s``s``s``si`ki`k`ki`k`ki`s``s`ksk`k`k`kk 6 5
17:40:59 <oklopol> >>> sk ```s``si`k``s``s``s``si`ki`k`ki`k`ki`s``s`ksk`k`k`kk 6 5
17:41:00 <ololobot> -> ('s', ('s', ('k', 's'), 'k'), ('s', ('s', ('k', 's'), 'k'), ('s', ('s', ('k', 's'), 'k'), ('s', ('s', ('k', 's'), 'k'), ('s', ('s', ('k', 's'), 'k'), ('k', 'i'))))))
17:41:14 <oklopol> >>> sk ` ``s`k.i``s``si`k.o`k. ```s``si`k``s``s``s``si`ki`k`ki`k`ki`s``s`ksk`k`k`kk7 5
17:41:25 <oklopol> that's... almost correct.. :<
17:42:57 <oerjan> oklopol> omg, where's my time! it's 19:37 already :<
17:43:08 <oerjan> me thinks you forgot to change to winter time?
17:44:38 <oerjan> unless finland actually changes on a different day than most of europe
17:44:39 <oklopol> oerjan: it's not my birthday yet, but thanks for the hour, best gift i've ever gotten :)
17:45:19 <oklopol> (19:44:40) (oklopol) it's backwards right? :P
17:45:36 * ehird` wonders whether to mmap or getc repeatedly
17:45:43 <ehird`> it seems like mmap would be more efficient
17:50:26 <oklopol> how would that help in parsing?
18:03:54 <ehird`> if ((arg && !tape[tapep]) || (!arg && tape[tapep])) {
18:04:01 <ehird`> that's clever :-) no more [ and ] instructions
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18:10:49 <ehird`> ok, efficient interpreter - check
18:10:51 <ehird`> now to write the parser
18:11:16 <ehird`> poll: mmap or getchar over and over?
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18:38:09 <ehird`> you are all very helpful
19:19:22 <ehird`> which is more efficient:
19:19:26 <ehird`> optimizing after parsing
19:19:30 <ehird`> or parsing and optimizing at the same time
19:36:01 <lament> about the whole turing-completess thing
19:36:04 <ehird`> my interpreter takes program file name as first argument
19:36:08 <lament> if we allow "non-repetitive infinite initial conditions"
19:36:23 <lament> i'm pretty sure that makes SMETANA turing-complete as well
19:36:27 <lament> http://forum.wolframscience.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1472
19:37:30 <lament> it would be a very simple structure, it has a "head" and then a "tail" consisting of identical pieces of code with different numbers (trivially generated by any process)
19:37:40 <bsmntbombdood> how can you solve the halting problem with an infinite starting condition?
19:37:58 <lament> bsmntbombdood: "infinite starting condition" means an infinitely big program. You can do a lot of stuff with infinitely big programs.
19:38:23 <ehird`> lament: you cannot solve the halting problem with an infinitely big program unless you hardcode EVERY SINGLE PROGRAM and if it halts or not
19:38:32 <ehird`> ... generating that program is equivilant to the halting problem of course
19:38:50 <lament> ehird`: right, but the point is that you can :)
19:38:59 <lament> ehird`: and he does say such programs are uncomputable
19:39:30 <lament> ais's starting conditions in the proof are computable
19:39:38 <lament> so this guy claims that that's enough
19:39:49 <lament> but if that's allowed, then SMETANA should be turing-complete
19:40:30 <lament> you can represent a brainfuck "memory cell" with ~20 lines of smetana
19:40:40 <lament> so with an infinite smetana program, you can represent the entire brainfuck memory tape
19:43:50 <ehird`> so anyone have comments on my parsing/optimizing order?
19:44:00 <ehird`> i would think that i should do parsing first, then optimize
19:44:05 <ehird`> because i have my nice tokens to play with
19:45:18 <ehird`> i'll flip a coin for mmap vs getchar
19:45:39 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: for what
19:46:19 <ehird`> i shall mmap the code file
19:46:28 <ehird`> mmap just maps N bytes of a file to a pointer
19:46:33 <ehird`> and lazily reads them out on read
19:47:01 <ehird`> the major difference, i think, here, is that i need to do a stat on the file before mmaping
19:47:09 <ehird`> but of course getc is more complex
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20:25:41 <ehird`> changing +-+ to +(1) should be done at optimizing stage right?
20:25:50 <ehird`> (alternatively, just ++ to +(2))
20:33:17 <ehird`> i'm thinking because i optimize away e.g. ><
20:33:33 <ehird`> but it'll be +(1)+(1) if i do ++->+(2) at parse-time
20:48:37 <ehird`> after working on this interp for hours
20:48:44 <ehird`> i'm compiling it for the First. Damn. Time.
20:48:47 <ehird`> here comes the bugfixes.
21:00:12 <ehird`> all the brainfuck optimizations i can think of just remove redundant code
21:00:18 <ehird`> not really speed it up in any way
21:00:24 <ehird`> (apart from +++++++ -> + stuff)
21:00:31 <ehird`> are there any REAL optimizations you can do?
21:00:37 <ehird`> i currently optimize [-]...
21:22:17 <lament> [->>++<<] and everything else of that form can be quite trivially optimized
21:23:30 <lament> in fact, any loop which has no net effect on the memory pointer and contains no nested loops
21:24:39 <bsmntbombdood> ok i have a brainfuck text generating algorithm but it's pretty sucky
21:28:23 <oklopol> ehird`: didn't you say you have tons of brilliant brainfuck optimization techiniques?
21:28:58 <oklopol> i've been watching south park for like 5 hours.
21:32:29 <bsmntbombdood> +++++[>+++++<-]>[>+>++>+++>++++>+++++<<<<<-]>>>.>+++++.+++++++..+++.<<----.<++++++++.>>>>-.<.+++.------.--------.<<<+.
21:33:52 <ehird`> oklopol: yes, but compiler suited
21:33:56 <ehird`> oklopol: not for an interp
21:33:57 <bsmntbombdood> ++++++++++++++++++++++++[>+>++>+++>++++>+++++<<<<<-]>>>.>+++++.+++++++..+++.<<----.<++++++++.>>>>-.<.+++.------.--------.<<<+.
21:35:16 <bsmntbombdood> whoa, that's better than the hello world on the wiki
21:38:57 <oklopol> i don't see a difference, really
21:39:09 <ehird`> oklopol: optimizations that take ages to apply = compiler territory
21:39:56 <ehird`> oklopol: after all, speed is the goal :)
21:41:18 <oklopol> true, but no one cares about a delay that only occurs once
21:41:32 <ehird`> think about mandelbrot.b runtime
21:41:41 <ehird`> if the parsing+optimizing takes a long time
21:41:47 <ehird`> then it'll rank, on the whole, badly
21:42:06 <ehird`> compared to other interps
21:42:08 <oklopol> on the top10 of bf-interpreters?
21:43:13 <oklopol> what kind of optimizations do you have that would take long to apply, and what's a long time?
21:43:29 <ehird`> 1. everything non-trivial 2. everything that's slow
21:44:06 <oklopol> now wanna answer at least one of those?
21:44:26 <ehird`> human nature is completely subjective
21:44:31 <ehird`> i cannot explain subjective things objectively
21:44:43 <oklopol> ...you can explain what you meant by a long time.
21:45:12 <ehird`> an optimization that takes a long time is an optimization where taking in account the time taken to apply it, it slows the interpretation process down on the whole
21:45:23 <ehird`> this of course does not matter for compilers - compiling time does not matter
21:45:54 <oklopol> ...okay, from now on, i'll just say not-orly everytime i don't feel like orlying what you say.
21:45:59 <oklopol> anyway, wanna answer the questions?
21:48:40 <ehird`> what other big programs do people use to test their brainfuck interpreter?
21:48:46 <ehird`> right now i'm using mandelbrot.b and LostKng.b
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22:53:17 <ehird`> "Leopard is so powerful, it makes Reddit's search function work right."
23:20:49 <ihope> I see we are not discussing parser-based esoteric programming languages. This must be rectified.
23:23:55 <ihope> Yes. Let me wrestle the logs and find it...
23:25:35 <ihope> Mmf. ircbrowse.com's search feature seems non-functional.
23:31:17 <ihope> Here we go! http://pastebin.ca/679421
23:32:24 <ehird`> show me a fibonacci generator and i'll be impressed
23:32:46 <ihope> Is unary okay? :-P
23:33:14 <ehird`> then write an unary->something else converter :-)
23:33:27 <ihope> I'll do the unary first.
23:33:37 <ihope> Or maybe decimal would actually be easier.
23:33:51 <ehird`> easiest is probably binary
23:34:19 <ihope> Then I guess I need a parser that parses stuff like 101|1000 into stuff like 1000|1101.
23:34:26 <ehird`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-system#Example_2:_Fibonacci_numbers
23:34:29 <ehird`> that will be the simplest
23:34:34 <ehird`> you can EASILY do that in your language
23:34:56 <ehird`> it produces fibonacci numbers in unary
23:35:13 <ehird`> so, wrap an unary->something else converter over that
23:37:55 <ihope> Halfway done: http://pastebin.ca/755820
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23:39:04 <ihope> I'll finish it later!
23:39:23 <ihope> Since I have to go eat and all.
23:40:05 <ehird`> you havent been in here for ages
23:40:07 <ihope> (Also, I forgot the period at the end.)
23:41:16 <oerjan> <lament> i'm pretty sure that makes SMETANA turing-complete as well
23:41:57 <oerjan> indeed, i discussed that on the esoteric mailing list once upon a time
23:42:45 <oklopol> you'd think turing completeness would be an unambiguous consept
23:43:04 <ehird`> it's just hard to prove :-)
23:44:48 <ehird`> i wonder what the simplest pattern-matching-and-substitution language is that is TC
23:44:55 <ehird`> i.e. a mapping of state 1 to state 2
23:44:58 <oklopol> ehird`: i mean all these debates arguing over stuff like pointer-size-defined-when-program-starts (c) and initial-conditions-are-infinite-but-created-by-a-non-universal-machine (smetana, the 2,3 tm)
23:45:04 <ehird`> and the input to a program is transformed from state 1 to state 2 repeatedly
23:45:24 <oerjan> http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/2001-q3
23:45:48 <oklopol> the first one is trivially not turing complete, but i'm not sure about the second one.
23:46:38 <oerjan> later i extended it to something called Moldau, in http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/2001-q4
23:46:51 <oklopol> ais is quite inactive, i don't have a strong opinion on him
23:47:46 <lament> oerjan: i'm talking about regular smetana.
23:48:08 <oerjan> lament: Smetana+1 can be considered simply a notation for your infinite initial pattern
23:50:43 <oklopol> i think i'm doZzZering off here ->
23:50:45 <oerjan> Moldau on the other hand was seriously overkill, as i mentioned already in my initial post
23:51:15 <oerjan> with only Goto, it was essentially continuation-passing Prolog
23:51:33 <ehird`> i wonder how minimal you can get it
23:51:40 <ehird`> obviously less minimal than tode (@oklopol ;))
00:11:48 <lament> oerjan: if smetana+1 compacts the infinite smetana program to finite size, then it's obviously turing-complete
00:12:43 <lament> oerjan: the question is whether we can consider smetana to be turing-complete, despite infinitely large programs
00:14:11 <lament> and "smetana+1 is just a notation" would be a good argument for that.
00:15:15 <ehird`> if it is turing complete
00:15:19 <ehird`> it can hardly be said to be just a notation
00:15:59 <lament> ehird`: that doesn't make any sense.
00:20:49 <pikhq> ehird`: Any more pebble.bfm insanity?
00:20:55 <ehird`> pikhq: damnit!!! i forgot
00:21:18 <ehird`> pikhq: it'll also be harder than i thought due to lack of strings in pebble
00:21:37 <pikhq> Meaning that you'd have to do string functions first.
00:21:56 <ehird`> the hardest part would be coming up with an efficient representation
00:22:16 <ehird`> i mean, H1e1l1l1o1w1o1r1l1d is... bigger than neccessary
00:24:30 <lament> Only by a constant factor.
00:24:43 <pikhq> And "Hello world\0x00" is. . . Not useful for string insertion in Brainfuck. ;)
00:25:51 <ehird`> i guess, i'll do the swapping-algorithm
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00:26:15 <ehird`> make 0 the index of the string from the end you want to access
00:26:19 <ehird`> swap and -1 repeatedly
00:26:43 <ehird`> just go from H until you find 0
00:27:57 <ehird`> though the swapping could be inefficient
00:29:18 <ehird`> pikhq: lament: comments?
00:29:41 <lament> i bought sheet music paper!
00:30:33 <lament> 10 staves per sheet, 40 sheets (related to my previous comment)
00:31:00 <ehird`> related to my algorithm
00:36:57 <ehird`> i guess the swapping would be slow
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00:51:15 <ehird`> no/yes? ;) (lament,pikhq)
00:55:59 <ihope> Are you looking for minimal Turing-complete systems?
00:59:25 * ihope creates a parser called convertNewZealand
00:59:55 <ihope> It converts from unary to decimal with New Zealand.
00:59:57 <ehird`> is the unary->anything converter actually possible/easy in your subst lang?
01:00:03 <ihope> It's certainly possible.
01:00:18 <ehird`> so how does it utilize new zealand
01:00:40 <ihope> By New including a Zealand if the string is "".
01:00:57 <ihope> ...including New Zealand, I mean.
01:01:23 <ehird`> so what is a New Zealand
01:01:40 <ihope> A backronym for "no zero".
01:01:57 <ihope> And now for another regex mnemonic: "Look up there! It's money!"
01:02:22 <ehird`> (By the way, what regexps do you use? Custom?)
01:02:24 <ihope> "" is converted to "" instead of "0".
01:02:30 <ihope> Undefined, really.
01:02:43 <ihope> Though $ is a pretty important part of it.
01:04:21 <ehird`> Does your language have a way of putting anything to the screen?
01:04:35 <ehird`> A primitive or something, that does no substitutions, but has a side effect of output
01:04:44 <ihope> It could easily be extended to include one.
01:05:32 <ehird`> Because you could make a program basically identical to fibonacci.b
01:05:41 <ihope> bleach(): {/[ab]/; "w" + bleach()}
01:05:42 <ehird`> Writes out fibonacci numbers in decimal, one per line, until halted.
01:05:51 <ihope> (With an invisible period on the end.)
01:05:58 <ehird`> ihope: what does that do?
01:06:07 <ihope> It replaces a and b with w.
01:06:22 <ihope> ...and gives an error when it reaches the end of the string.
01:06:46 <ihope> It was going to make input more friendly for convertNoZero, but I just realized it's actually completely unnecessary.
01:07:08 <ehird`> Just match . instead of w :-)
01:07:31 <ihope> Well, I was thinking [ab].
01:07:47 <ehird`> You want it to be generalized
01:08:05 <ehird`> since unary is just a way of encoding a string as its length, the actual contents is arbitary
01:10:06 * ihope decides to go for little-endian increment
01:10:29 <ehird`> So what is your language called?
01:11:11 <ihope> No implementation. I think I'll call it Redivider.
01:11:26 <ehird`> It's really interesting, I might implement it :)
01:11:44 <ihope> Should I finish the program or the spec first?
01:11:45 <ehird`> Does it have a spec or similar? I mean, defining regexps beyond the basics could be hard...
01:16:13 <ihope> Is it okay if I use the word "guts" in the spec? :-P
01:16:31 <ihope> As in <regex> ::= "/" <regexguts> "/"
01:16:35 <ehird`> But I want to see the program first!
01:16:40 <ehird`> as long as you define regexguts
01:16:42 <ihope> Yes, I'm still doing that.
01:16:49 <ihope> Pff, why would I do that? :-)
01:17:01 <ehird`> because otherwise i won't implement it, having no spec :P
01:17:08 <ehird`> i'm not going to use a third-party regexp spec
01:17:14 <ehird`> that'd be inconsistant with other implementations!
01:17:19 <ihope> I'll write my own minimalistic one, then.
01:17:22 <ehird`> think of all the regexp libs... you gotta define your own for portability ;)
01:17:28 <ehird`> just give it enough to be comfy for use
01:17:41 <ihope> Ranges, exclusion...
01:17:51 <ihope> Plus /[]/, the regex that doesn't match.
01:17:53 <ehird`> there's not much to regexps
01:18:21 <ehird`> i doubt it, personally, but..
01:18:34 <ehird`> I might try and write a bf interp in it. :)
01:18:46 <ihope> Redivider is almost certainly TC.
01:18:48 <ehird`> hm, i think that would be possible
01:18:55 <ihope> If http://pastebin.ca/679421 has no bugs, it is.
01:19:11 <ehird`> But brainfuck = far more fun
01:19:46 <ehird`> very crazy suggestion for regexps
01:20:08 <ehird`> <x> means "anything function x matches"
01:20:20 <ehird`> this would make, e.g. parsing brainfuck braces trivial
01:20:24 <ihope> That sounds rather complicating.
01:20:25 <ehird`> though perhaps it's too bloated in your mind ;)
01:20:35 <ehird`> i don't know, it'd just make a lot of stuff you could think of easier
01:20:49 <ihope> This language is inspired by Parsec, which is a completely ordinary combinator parser as far as I can tell :-)
01:21:28 <ehird`> Well, yeah, but with parsec you could insert random haskell in the middle
01:21:33 <ehird`> Something like (i don't know haskell)
01:21:44 <ehird`> match "abc" ++ callParser ++ match "def"
01:21:48 <ehird`> with these regexps, you can't
01:22:02 <ihope> I think you can still do that here.
01:22:32 <ihope> /abc/ + parser() + /def/ will work and return "abcwhatevertheparserreturneddef".
01:23:11 <ihope> First it runs /abc/, which consumes the abc and returns "abc", then it runs parser(), which consumes something and returns something, then it runs /def/, which consumes the def and returns "def".
01:23:46 <ihope> If bf() parses "foo" into "bar", that'll parse "[foo]" into "[bar]".
01:24:23 <ihope> If you don't like the brackets around it, then there's {/[/; x <- bf(); /]/; x}
01:24:35 <ehird`> what is a function that parses nested parens with anything in
01:24:36 <ihope> That parses "[foo]" into "bar".
01:24:53 <ehird`> (abc) ((ab)c) (a(b)(c((d)))) parses, (a etc don't
01:25:05 <ehird`> More importantly: some way to get the inner contents
01:25:22 <ehird`> but, of course, ONLY if the whole thing has well-formed braces
01:25:26 <ihope> What does (ab)c return?
01:25:32 <ihope> Possible, yes. Probably easy, too.
01:25:37 <ehird`> i guess that's undefined
01:25:52 <ehird`> i just mean, if you can do that, then you can parse brainfuck
01:26:13 <ihope> check(): /(/ + check() + /)/ + check() | /[^()]/ + check()
01:26:16 <ehird`> if you have "code[SENTINEL]tape", then you can run a brainfuck program trivially, iirc
01:26:19 <ihope> ...with that invisible period.
01:26:28 <ihope> That just checks for well-formedness.
01:27:08 <ihope> grab(): {/(/; x <- check(); /)/; x}
01:27:17 <ihope> ...period again, gah.
01:27:21 <ehird`> So what are these "x"s etc?
01:27:28 <ehird`> Just arbitary variables that are "" by default?
01:27:36 <ihope> By default, they're errors.
01:27:46 <ehird`> So how does grab(): {/(/; x <- check(); /)/; x} work
01:27:48 <ihope> They always hold strings, never parsers.
01:28:23 <ihope> It runs /(/ and throws away the result, then runs check() and stores the result in x, then runs /)/ and throws away the result, then runs x and returns the result.
01:28:31 <ihope> A string is the same thing as a parser that does nothing and returns that string.
01:28:43 <ihope> x is a local variable, I guess.
01:28:55 <ihope> x <- check() is what introduces it.
01:29:15 <ihope> Or creates or some such.
01:29:21 <oerjan> <- is obviously borrowed from haskell's do notation
01:29:32 <ihope> I guess you can do it that way. You might as well do z <- x + y, though.
01:29:49 <ihope> These behave pretty much exactly the same way as in Haskell's do notation, yeah.
01:29:56 <ehird`> Why, ihope? Why have unneeded vars?
01:30:20 <ihope> Less confusion, I guess, if you find that sort of thing confusing.
01:31:53 <ihope> I think this is right, apart from the fact that it outputs the numbers all smooshed together if output doesn't automatically add a newline: http://pastebin.ca/755940
01:32:43 <ehird`> is main a special name? or is it just what you called it as a convention? and, what's []?
01:33:03 <ihope> There's not necessarily anything special about it.
01:33:24 <ihope> foo()[blah] makes foo parse blah; otherwise, it parses from whatever it's called in.
01:33:32 <ehird`> Could you like put it in the spec? "If there is a main function, it is called at runtime, otherwise you are dropped in to a REPL?"
01:33:39 <ihope> The "current string", I guess.
01:33:48 <ehird`> foo()[blah]... why not just foo(blah)?
01:33:53 <ehird`> I can't see the ()s being used for anything else there
01:34:13 <ehird`> Plus it would look nicer.
01:34:41 <ihope> They're for when you want parsers to take parameters other than the current string.
01:35:13 <ehird`> If so, may I humbly suggest just foo(str, extra)?
01:35:37 <ihope> Though I rather feel foo(extra, str) would be better.
01:35:46 <ehird`> Although... What if you want extra args, but default string?
01:35:54 <ehird`> Maybe some kind of seperator
01:36:05 <ehird`> no, no... that won't work nicely
01:36:22 <ihope> Extra arguments but the default string would just be foo(extra).
01:36:37 <ehird`> How can it tell the difference between foo(str) and foo(extra)?
01:37:04 <ihope> Each parser has a parameter number. If it's given that many parameters, then they're all actually parameters; if it's given one more, the last one is the input string.
01:37:28 <ehird`> Parser with 1 parameter number:
01:37:34 <ehird`> I just want to pass it a special string.
01:38:03 <ihope> If foo's parameter number is 1, then str is the parameter.
01:38:16 <ehird`> Right! BUt I don't want it to be.
01:38:21 <ihope> If foo's parameter number is 0, then str is the input string.
01:38:24 <ehird`> I just want to pass it an extra string, with no extra parameters.
01:38:29 <ehird`> Foo's parameter number is 1.
01:38:41 <ihope> If foo's parameter number is 1, then use foo(parameter, inputstring).
01:38:49 <ehird`> I don't want to give it an extra parameter
01:39:03 <ihope> If foo's parameter number is 1, it must take a parameter.
01:39:12 <ehird`> No optional parameters
01:39:46 <ihope> If you like those optional parameters, go the Haskell Way and use foo("J" + parameter) or foo("N") :-)
01:39:47 <ehird`> I suggest making inputstring the first
01:40:02 <ehird`> It feels like it's what the parser is being called /with/
01:40:06 <ehird`> Everything else is just additional info
01:40:25 <ihope> I sort of have the opposite opinion for the same reason.
01:40:28 <ehird`> For increasing parameter num: foo(str), foo(str,1), foo(str,1,2) etc
01:40:41 <ehird`> str - the main part of the parser, it's what its actually parsing - moves, in your smantics
01:41:19 <ihope> Well, if parameter numbers can vary, you need some way of differentiating a parameter from an input string.
01:41:32 <ehird`> First parameter: string
01:41:38 <ehird`> Rest: parameters, function dependena
01:42:21 <ehird`> The string is there regardless of the function
01:42:25 <ehird`> The rest is stuff added on "after the tail"
01:42:36 <ihope> The input string's being optional is sort of necessary.
01:42:36 <ehird`> It makes so much more sense for the string to be first.
01:43:27 <ihope> You need some way of making reference to the current string... or maybe this could be done without the current string stuff? Hmm.
01:43:47 <ehird`> func() # current string
01:44:04 <ehird`> you can call a function with a parameter
01:44:06 <ehird`> but with the current string
01:44:10 <ehird`> OK, you're right, yours is better
01:44:32 <ehird`> [abc] means "abc as string argument"
01:44:38 <ehird`> and can be anywhere, but is generally at the start
01:44:46 <ehird`> for a function with parameter value 2:
01:44:53 <ehird`> func([str], 1, 2) # using str
01:45:07 <ihope> How would varying numbers of parameters work, anyway?
01:45:15 <ehird`> I'm not talkng about that
01:45:22 <ehird`> func(1,2) and func(1,[str],2) would work
01:45:28 <ehird`> i.e. [] just mean "string argument"
01:45:34 <ihope> Seems a little pointless.
01:45:34 <ehird`> func2(str) # I guess, for parameter value 0, the []s would be optional, for nicety
01:45:52 <ehird`> so, progression: func(str) func([str],1) func([str],1,2)...
01:46:09 <ehird`> ihope: Well, it's nicer than allowing one additional argument. Think of the bugs - it's just not obvious at a glance
01:46:41 <ehird`> I think it's nicer, IMO
01:46:45 <ihope> Well, the input string is quite a bit like just another parameter.
01:47:06 <ehird`> func(1,2,oops-an-additional-arg)
01:47:11 <ehird`> That could so easily be a bug.
01:47:15 <ehird`> And explicitness is better, I'd say
01:47:29 <ehird`> func(1,2,oops) would be an error - "too many arguments, perhaps you need []?"
01:47:38 <ehird`> func(1,2,[oops]) would do what you intend
01:47:43 <ihope> Though I like the look of semicolons better.
01:47:51 <ehird`> (Probably [] would by convention go at the start, though - func([oops], 1, 2))
01:47:56 <ihope> func(1, 2, oops;) and func(1; 2, oops) and such.
01:47:57 <ehird`> So, I think that'd be good.
01:48:03 <ehird`> but [oops] at the start or end by convention?
01:48:11 <ehird`> ihope: Well, it just seems not noticable enough to me
01:48:40 <ihope> "It's an esoteric language; get over it"? :-P
01:48:51 <ehird`> Esoteric language != unplanned language
01:49:02 <ehird`> I think that [] here makes more sense
01:49:20 <ihope> How about func(1, 2; oops] and func[oops; 1, 2)?
01:49:23 <ehird`> Instead of func()[blah]
01:49:55 <ehird`> func[blah] would be sugar for func[blah](), since the former looks nicer
01:50:09 <ehird`> Though maybe func[blah]() would be nicer, as its more consistant - func[blah] is the parser that matches on blah
01:50:42 <ihope> Well, there are no first-class parsers here.
01:50:46 <ehird`> output[reverse[unary()]] output[reverse[unary()]()]()
01:50:49 <ehird`> The former is definately nicer
01:51:05 <ehird`> a() is a[current_str]()
01:51:07 <ihope> Hey, maybe we could get rid of () entirely.
01:51:12 <ihope> I mean, make it optional.
01:51:14 <ehird`> a[b](c,d) is what you expect
01:51:36 <ehird`> I think the above is probably the best
01:51:40 <ihope> I mean just (), not (stuff).
01:51:49 <ihope> No foo(); just foo.
01:51:49 <ehird`> run(): {x <- step(); output()[reverse()[unary()]]; run()[x]}.
01:51:56 <ihope> output[reverse[unary]]
01:51:57 <ehird`> run(): {x <- step(); output[reverse[unary()]]; run[x]}.
01:52:08 <ehird`> ihope: I think in that case () provides more information
01:52:17 <ehird`> You could mistake it for a variable.
01:52:36 <ehird`> I'll rewrite your paste using that proposed syntax
01:53:04 <ehird`> http://pastebin.ca/755956
01:53:10 <ehird`> IMO, it looks really clean and easy to understand. Very nice.
01:53:36 <ehird`> Likewise, func[a](b,c) follows naturally from that syntax.
01:53:38 <ihope> Yes, you're right.
01:53:49 <ehird`> So, can I expect a spec tomorrow maybe? ;)
01:53:59 <ehird`> Very interesting langugae
01:54:05 <ehird`> It's esoteric but looks really easy to program in too
01:54:16 <ehird`> OK. Leave me a memo with MemoServ if you get it done :)
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04:51:12 <GregorR> THIN FUNCTIONS WILL BE THE DEATH OF ME
04:52:52 <oerjan> GAUNT ZOMBIE FUNCTIONS, LOOKING FOR BRAINS...
04:56:22 <GregorR> Unfortunately, I believe that the solution is to abandon my dictum that all blocks are functions :(
04:56:50 <pikhq> You *could* do it as Tcl does. . .
04:57:08 <pikhq> Provide an "uplevel" command, which executes something up a level in the stack.
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04:58:19 <oerjan> that's not very higher-order. a function should not necessarily know where it was called.
04:58:23 <pikhq> I guess it's not Plofy, though.
04:58:28 <GregorR> Mind you, it's better than thick and thin :P
04:59:52 <pikhq> But not much better.
05:01:51 <oerjan> hm... isn't a thick function essentially one that binds its escape continuation to return?
05:19:05 <GregorR> That's a truly bizarre way of looking at it :P
05:19:46 <GregorR> A thick function is the point in the call stack that a return will drop do.
05:33:48 <oerjan> alternately, a thick function is one which catches the return exception. you could generalize that.
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05:34:38 <GregorR> Oooh, that's a good way to think about it.
05:34:43 <GregorR> Returns become throws with special syntax.
05:35:01 <GregorR> Thick functions are just functions with implicit try/catch blocks.
05:35:18 <GregorR> Now, how can I use that to get rid of thick functions :P
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15:12:55 <ehird`> GregorR: that try/catch idea for thick functions is good but it doesn't help you vanquish thick/thin functions
15:13:25 <GregorR> Hence, "<GregorR> Now, how can I use that to get rid of thick functions :P"
15:13:59 <ehird`> in fact it probably complicates it
15:14:07 <ehird`> because you introduce syntactic sugar etc and even more thick/thin semantics
15:14:28 <ehird`> ok, show me a recursive factorial again so i can see thick vs thin and i'll try and figure out a way to resolve it
15:16:24 <GregorR> http://www.pastebin.ca/756432
15:23:32 <oklopol> GregorR: make it always run the program with every single combination of thick and thin functions at the same time, and introduce another, declarative, language, you have to use with the actual plof code to tell the interpreter what the correct behavior is; it can then resolve the right combination of thick/thin functions automatically
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15:36:16 <ehird`> pikhq: pebble.bfm will be called Calculus ;) I'm working on it no
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15:57:39 <ehird`> pikhq: how does eval work? does it run at compile-time?
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16:24:49 <ehird`> If {} is seen in the context of an assignment
16:25:03 <ehird`> You still have thick/thin, but it's internal only.
16:25:05 <GregorR> The first argument to 'if' is thick.
16:25:14 <ehird`> it does not need to be, though.
16:25:26 <GregorR> Yes it does, it returns a value that 'if' needs to catch.
16:25:44 <ehird`> Yeah, but {value} works
16:25:47 <ehird`> You don't need to use "return"
16:25:50 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: plof is not new
16:26:08 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: there is a new language though!
16:26:22 <GregorR> ehird`: Well, in Plof2, returning and evaluating to a value are identical, but I suppose that doesn't need to be the case :)
16:26:35 <GregorR> So, lemme mull over cases where that might be wrong.
16:26:49 <ehird`> GregorR: return will zoop down the stack, but a value at the end will just evaluate to it.
16:27:11 <GregorR> "zoop" being of course the technical term.
16:27:17 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: It's ihope's. It's called Redivide, and it's a turing complete substitution language. Fibonacci numbers: http://pastebin.ca/755956
16:27:48 <ehird`> http://pastebin.ca/679421 SK calculus implementation
16:27:57 <ehird`> that syntax is the old version
16:28:03 <ehird`> I'l update it (the SK calculus one)
16:28:24 <ehird`> http://pastebin.ca/756513 new SK calculus
16:28:50 <ehird`> [x] means "parse string x", it defaults to the current string if not speciified
16:29:01 <ehird`> you can also pass extra parameters (if defined in the function) with (a,b...)
16:29:08 <ehird`> but, you cannot omit both [] and ()
16:29:35 <ehird`> so, parser() for no arguments, parser(a) for one argument, etc. or with a different string: parser[str] (note no () - it looks nicer), parser[str](a), parser[str](a,b) etc
16:29:48 <ehird`> apart from that, the rest is pretty self-evident I think
16:30:30 <ehird`> main(), of course, is run with an empty string by default if it's there, when interpreting/running the compiled version
16:30:34 <ehird`> if it's not there, it drops into a REPL.
16:30:42 <ehird`> A full spec is being written by ihope, it should be ready sometime today
16:30:46 <ehird`> But I thik it's very interesting.
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22:16:40 <ehird`> any work on the redivide spec? :)
22:17:46 <ihope> I'm still working on it.
22:18:00 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat said that redivide was interesting earlier today :P
22:19:14 <ehird`> output[str] gets away from non-purity by saying "Does no substitutions. (In an interactive interpreter, this is printed as debug output)" sneakily,
22:19:17 <oklopol> hah, i said it was interested before it was famous!
22:19:20 <ehird`> but what about input()?
22:19:35 <ehird`> oklopol: I was interested in it when ihope first mentioned it ages ago
22:19:38 <ehird`> I just didn't mention it at the time :P
22:20:07 <ihope> ehird`: can't input() be the same way as output()?
22:20:24 <ehird`> ihope: Well, no, because it has to return the string from input.
22:20:41 <ehird`> ihope: You can't get away from non-purity there, unlike my above output[] definition
22:21:02 <ihope> Who cares about purity? :-P
22:21:12 <ihope> Evaluation order already matters.
22:21:18 <ehird`> Well, if it's a substitution language it's expected that you know what's happening to the program :P
22:21:37 <ehird`> You know what I mean? It's like a list of rules... putting non-purity in there (that isn't carefully worded) could damage that
22:22:23 <ihope> I still don't think there's much of a problem if evaluation order already matters.
22:25:00 <oklopol> ihope: please add thread support <3
22:25:30 <ehird`> ihope: you should at least allow multi threading
22:25:43 <ehird`> so an implementation can run it concurrently! :D
22:25:50 <ihope> In a way that doesn't affect semantics, you mean?
22:25:53 <oklopol> hmm, how exactly would that be possible :P
22:26:22 <oklopol> the fastest parser gets the string!
22:26:40 <ihope> Evaluate bar() and baz() simultaneously if possible.
22:27:21 <oklopol> hmm, it's pretty hard to evaluate two parsers simultaneously unless you know how much they'll gorge already
22:28:42 <ehird`> since there's no first-class parsers there's another easy thing
22:28:45 <ehird`> forbid it if IO is done
22:29:02 <ehird`> (no first class parsers = you can just check for output/input in them)
22:34:02 <ihope> Hmm. Is it okay if .|*()[ are the only special characters outside brackets and \^-] the only special characters inside brackets for regexes?
22:34:37 <ehird`> You need \ everywhere, though
22:34:42 <ehird`> if you can't escape something in any place, fix that
22:35:09 <ihope> ...er, yes, \ outside brackets as well.
22:35:51 <ihope> Now lemme take 37.5 moments to reboot.
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22:39:51 <GregorR> 37.5 moments = 56.25 minutes
22:39:57 <GregorR> Apparently it takes ihope nearly an hour to reboot.
22:40:13 <ehird`> (9:46:17 PM) ihope: Now lemme take 37.5 moments to reboot.
22:40:16 <ehird`> (9:50:17 PM) GregorR: 37.5 moments = 56.25 minutes
22:40:26 <ehird`> that's not nearly an hour
22:40:59 <oerjan> he may have meant moment in the sense of rotation physics. maybe he passed out from it.
22:41:20 <GregorR> ehird`: How is 56.25 minutes not nearly an hour?
22:41:24 <GregorR> It's only 3.75 minutes short
22:41:38 <ehird`> GregorR: ... ihope said blah blah reboot at 9:46
22:42:22 <ehird`> yes but it has not been nearly an hour
22:42:44 <GregorR> "Moment" used to be a defined unit of time measurement being 1.5 minutes.
22:42:48 <GregorR> 37.5 moments = 56.25 minutes
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22:48:36 <ihope> Okay, so maybe that was actually 387.98 moments.
22:48:58 <ihope> That's slow even for my Windows machine.
22:48:58 <bartw> GregorR: defines a moment as about 1.5 minutes
22:50:05 <ihope> You calculate how many moments that actually was.
22:51:57 <GregorR> From now on, I will assume that all users choose their nickname in the same way that I do.
22:52:14 <GregorR> e.g. Ihop Erickson and Ehird `-$*@/\\\
22:52:58 <ehird`> Actually my nick is ehird
22:53:03 <ehird`> ehird` is just because ehird got stolen :(
22:53:14 <GregorR> Well, then Ehir Dickinson :P
22:53:18 <GregorR> At least make it a last name ;)
22:53:25 <oerjan> ehird`'s real name is not particularly secret
22:53:26 <ihope> Erickson and Dickinson?
22:53:27 <GregorR> (Which apparently means ending it with "son")
22:53:45 <ehird`> oerjan: how come? i haven't told anyone in here it, i don't think...
22:53:49 <ehird`> (it's Elliott Hird anyway)
22:53:58 <ihope> What's your obsession with ck and son?
22:54:09 -!- ihope has changed nick to IhopE.
22:54:49 -!- ehird` has changed nick to ehirD.
22:54:52 -!- ehirD has changed nick to EhirD.
22:55:13 -!- EhirD has changed nick to EhirD`.
22:55:25 <EhirD`> oerjan: so how is it not particularly secret? :P
22:55:33 <IhopE> Maybe it's Ehir Donald `-$*@/\\\.
22:55:42 <oerjan> EhirD`: well i did know it didn't i?
22:56:10 <EhirD`> oerjan: i think so, but how? :P
22:56:12 <EhirD`> it's not in my whois atm
22:56:40 <IhopE> Your name is purple?
22:57:16 <EhirD`> GregorR: So what is RodgerTheGreat's name?
22:58:21 <EhirD`> Rodger Therrickson Handlebrock Entrepreneur Gullible Russell Ensonava Aeota Therrickson?
22:58:50 <GregorR> "Gullible" = awesome name :P
22:59:01 <EhirD`> "Wow. My name isn't in the dictionary"
22:59:15 <GregorR> "What's your name?" "Gullible." "Really? Wow!" "No, gotcha bitch!"
22:59:24 <EhirD`> "...actually, yes it is."
22:59:29 <oerjan> EhirD`: hm, you actually don't have a presence on the esolangs wiki?
22:59:39 <oerjan> thought that might have been it
22:59:43 <IhopE> Rodger Thomas Harry Elliot Graetz-Russell-Erickson-Aritz-Thomson!
22:59:58 <GregorR> I'm totally renaming myself Gregor Van Von O'McFitzsonovichstein
23:00:06 <RodgerTheGreat> believe it or not, my name in real life *isn't even Rodger!*
23:00:36 <IhopE> Or Rodger Tokigun Helios EgoBot Gregor-Reddak-Ehird-Anmaster-Tritonio, which would be very weird.
23:00:50 * EhirD` has a reflex that coils on sight of "Elliot" and corrects people to "Elliott"
23:00:55 <oerjan> RodgerTheGreat: of course not, your real name is Spot
23:01:00 <IhopE> But it's "Elliot"!
23:01:14 <IhopE> Well, too bad! :-P
23:01:46 <RodgerTheGreat> http://rodger.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1190852142-understanding.png
23:02:04 <EhirD`> yes but that's because its littered in various code and i might have told you
23:02:35 <oerjan> EhirD`: maybe i got it from your code too
23:02:48 <EhirD`> i haven't shown all that much code here
23:02:50 <oerjan> that was my second theory anyway
23:05:08 <oklopol> EhirD`: perhaps, although i'm pretty sure i've just deduced it from your behavior, just like i did with GregorR
23:05:24 <EhirD`> you deduced Elliott Hird from my behaviour?
23:05:31 <EhirD`> well, of course you could deduce E Hird
23:05:34 <EhirD`> But Elliott? i doubt it
23:05:53 <oklopol> EhirD`: no no i'm pretty sure
23:06:10 <EhirD`> oklopol: james randi might want to giv e you $1mil
23:06:22 <RodgerTheGreat> fine, have some doodles from my statistics class today: http://nonlogic.org/dump/images/1193866302-sket2.png
23:06:25 <EhirD`> i'm pretty sure being able to determine names from behaviour is psychic
23:07:16 <oklopol> hehe, a guy in my class does that too
23:07:22 <EhirD`> IhopE: how's the spec going?
23:07:37 <oklopol> if there's a pause in taking notes, he draws a random picture
23:08:47 <oklopol> you use both hands and take notes while drawing?
23:08:52 <IhopE> EhirD`: I'll post it in exactly one moment.
23:09:02 <IhopE> What I have, I mean. Not the whole thing.
23:09:13 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure i saw a graph in there! :)
23:09:31 <RodgerTheGreat> because I find statistics extremely uninteresting, considering how many times I've done it in various classes over the years
23:10:12 <oklopol> statistics does have an ugly sound to it.
23:10:25 <oklopol> anyway, i'll sleep for a moment now, you all have fun ->
23:10:56 <AnMaster> <IhopE> Or Rodger Tokigun Helios EgoBot Gregor-Reddak-Ehird-Anmaster-Tritonio, which would be very weird. <-- huh?
23:11:08 <IhopE> AnMaster: don't you think that would be a very weird name?
23:11:45 <AnMaster> IhopE, none of these are real names
23:12:12 <IhopE> GregorR mentioned pretending everyone's nick was derived the same way as his.
23:12:34 <bartw> why is stdcall right to left with arguments ?
23:12:44 <oerjan> Gregor isn't a real name? :)
23:12:44 <EhirD`> bartw: because stdcall is evil
23:13:12 <AnMaster> <IhopE> GregorR mentioned pretending everyone's nick was derived the same way as his. <-- and how is it?
23:13:22 <AnMaster> mine IS based on my initials (AN) yes
23:13:28 <IhopE> First name, last initial.
23:13:52 <oerjan> my name is obviously Oerja Nilsson. Sorry for fooling you all about my gender so long.
23:13:54 <oklopol> my real name is oklovonimol polokolmonopotol
23:14:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm, sounds Scandinavian
23:14:50 <EhirD`> oerjan: YOU FAKED YOUR PHOTO?!12567862874623784234
23:14:51 <GregorR> oerjan: Gotta tell you, "Oerja" doesn't strike me as male or female :P
23:14:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, still don't know gender of name
23:15:03 <oerjan> EhirD`: no i'm just very ugly.
23:15:12 <bartw> RodgerTheGreat: nice drawings
23:15:26 <AnMaster> oerjan, wait, "oe" O with / in?
23:15:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, same as Swedish örjan then?
23:15:43 <oerjan> GregorR: well if it was norwegian it would be female. The only exception i recall is "Ola"
23:16:04 <oerjan> (ending in -a that is)
23:16:53 -!- IhopE has quit ("http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.08.09").
23:17:27 <AnMaster> my name can be found in the source code of the brainfuck interpreter in bash I coded: http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/bzr/index.py/get/bashfuck/head/bashfuck
23:17:49 <AnMaster> I'm also working on a modular irc bot in bash (http://envbot.org)
23:18:15 <GregorR> I imagine you have a library of functions that turns bash into a bit more of a general-purpose language?
23:18:16 <AnMaster> GregorR, still, just compiling LostKing.b to byte code = about 10 minutes on my amd64
23:18:20 * GregorR has always enjoyed writing shell scripts :)
23:18:27 <EhirD`> his lostkng.b performance is terrible
23:18:48 <AnMaster> if someone can make it faster, please branch it
23:19:45 <oerjan> "We're all mad here. I am mad. You're mad." "How do you know that I am mad?" asked Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
23:20:04 <AnMaster> GregorR, I do have some stuff I reuse sometimes, stack functions, associative array emulation
23:20:13 <EhirD`> ah yes -- quoting alice in wonderland. The post-ironic hippy way to be cool on the internet.
23:20:14 <AnMaster> but for bashfuck I didn't reuse anything
23:20:57 <AnMaster> I guess quoting Terry Pratchett doesn't work?
23:21:09 <EhirD`> no, that's the post-hippy ironic way
23:21:35 <AnMaster> EhirD`, eh? I got all Terry Pratchett books (except a few short stories that are out of print)
23:21:54 <AnMaster> EhirD`, and what is the post-hippy post-ironic way?
23:21:59 <oerjan> actually i am quoting Narbonic, which quoted Alice in Wonderland.
23:22:44 <oerjan> my favorite mad science webcomic so far
23:23:04 <AnMaster> (hm what is a "mad science webcomic"?)
23:23:05 <EhirD`> AnMaster: google gives it as #1 result
23:23:22 <oerjan> http://www.narbonic.com/
23:24:13 <AnMaster> EhirD`, what? I used to read that nethack one too, dudly or whatever the name was
23:24:53 <AnMaster> oerjan, there is no strip on the page?
23:25:00 <AnMaster> or do I have to enable java script
23:25:31 <EhirD`> sheesh, you could just view source
23:25:35 <EhirD`> and also stop being JS-paranoid
23:25:36 <oerjan> AnMaster: the webcomic is finished, read the archive
23:25:40 <AnMaster> <script language=javascript src=http://www.webcomicsnation.com/tooncast.php?series=narbonic_plus></script> <br>
23:25:53 <AnMaster> noscript tells me there is java script
23:26:16 <EhirD`> disable noscript becaues it's a stupid, paranoid extension with no real practical value
23:26:30 <AnMaster> GregorR, btw envbot's performance is very good
23:26:41 <AnMaster> EhirD`, what? I use tor when I browse
23:26:46 <oerjan> oh right, director's cut rerun. i haven't read that.
23:27:02 <EhirD`> i guess you wear a tinfoil hat too
23:27:46 <oerjan> heh, today's rerun is pretty good
23:27:56 <AnMaster> <EhirD`> i guess you wear a tinfoil hat too <-- no?
23:34:24 <EhirD`> Not Invented Here strikes again!
23:34:29 <EhirD`> I have found myself writing a code editor.
23:34:54 <oerjan> AnMaster: does http://www.webcomicsnation.com/shaenongarrity/narbonic/series.php?view=archive&chapter=9763 work better? it's the first page of the archive.
23:38:10 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, yes I coded brainfuck interpreter in bash. Yes I'm mad. Do you want anything else? :P
23:38:29 <bsmntbombdood> writing a brainfuck interpreter in bash doesn't make you mad around here
23:38:36 <AnMaster> http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/bzr/index.py/get/bashfuck/head/bashfuck and http://envbot.org is proof enought I'm mad
23:38:57 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, using bytecode and optimiztions in the interpreter AND coding it in bash IS mad
23:39:04 <bsmntbombdood> writing bash in brainfuck, that would make you mad
23:39:18 <EhirD`> mad for doing the impossible
23:40:36 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, what about bash to C translator coded in bash?
23:49:54 <RodgerTheGreat> mad science webcomics, eh? How about Phil Foglio's Girl Genius? (http://nonlogic.org/dump/images/1193870414-idee.png)
23:50:32 <oerjan> RodgerTheGreat: reading that too :)
23:51:32 <oerjan> among other defunct/ended ones: Casey and Andy, A Miracle of Science
23:53:13 <RodgerTheGreat> lmao. "..It heartens me to look ahead and see the bright future each and every one of you will create, using your disciplines to improve our world. Except for the computer-science majors. They're more likely to perpetrate evil."