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01:04:37 <HackEgo> tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit
01:05:33 <Sgeo> Burlew's on a roll
01:07:04 <shachaf> As he mentions on the front page.
01:07:49 <Sgeo> oerjan, does CReal not count as totally ordered?
01:08:25 <oerjan> Sgeo: well CReal by default cuts off after 40 digits or so
01:08:57 <Bike> but undecidable functions on "computable" reals is fun :(
01:09:28 <oerjan> so by default (==) does return a result. however this result does not respect leibnitzian equality.
01:10:06 <Bike> what do you even call equality otherwise
01:10:17 <Bike> "just-kind-of-saying-so equality"
01:12:34 <elliott> Bike: well equivalence relations...
01:12:48 <elliott> it satisfies all the axioms I think
01:12:59 <Bike> yeah it probably does but it's boring so there
01:14:26 <Bike> hm, having 40 digits in common is probably just bijective with N
01:15:58 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/^/basename "$0"; /' bin/emptylist
01:16:34 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/^/echo -n "$(basename "$0"): "; /' bin/emptylist
01:16:46 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/^/echo -n "$(basename "$0"): "; /' bin/olist
01:16:53 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo
01:17:05 <Bike> what just happened what is happening where am i
01:17:17 <shachaf> elliott: Yes, I'm always confused about which list is which.
01:17:23 <shachaf> It's nice to have it all in one line.
01:17:42 <shachaf> (In particular when I /last shachaf and see a list, I want to know which one it is.)
01:18:16 <shachaf> Wait, what happened to olist?
01:18:24 <shachaf> It was meant to be an emptylist clone!
01:18:37 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0"): "; echo shachaf oerjan Sgeo
01:18:55 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0"): "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit
01:19:02 <shachaf> `run for n in shchaf oerjan Sgeo; do echo $n >> bin/olist; done
01:19:21 <elliott> tip: one of the names is wrong
01:19:39 <shachaf> elliott: I never know how to spell that thing anyway.
01:19:49 <shachaf> `run s/shchaf/shachaf/g bin/*
01:19:50 <HackEgo> bash: s/shchaf/shachaf/g: No such file or directory
01:19:54 <shachaf> `run sed s/shchaf/shachaf/g bin/*
01:19:56 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | tr A-Z a-z | sed "s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic"; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1"; \ else echo "$1? ¯\(°_o)/¯"; exit 1;
01:20:01 <oerjan> it's because the original is hebrew so the vowels confuse him
01:20:09 <shachaf> `run sed s/shchaf/shachaf/g bin/olist
01:20:11 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0"): "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit \ shachaf \ oerjan \ Sgeo
01:20:16 <shachaf> `run sed -i s/shchaf/shachaf/g bin/olist
01:20:31 <shachaf> `run cat bin/smlist | rot13
01:20:50 <HackEgo> echo "$@" | tr a-zA-Z n-za-mN-ZA-M
01:21:01 <shachaf> What sort of crazy person makes a rot13 command that doesn't work on stdin?
01:21:23 <shachaf> `run echo tr a-zA-Z n-za-mN-ZA-M > bin/r13; chmod +x bin/r13
01:21:29 <HackEgo> gnvy -a+2 "$0" | knetf; rkvg \ funpuns \ zbadl \ ryyvbgg
01:21:40 <shachaf> OK, how do you sed just the first line?
01:21:51 <shachaf> Is it just 1s/... or something?
01:22:14 <shachaf> `run sed '1s/^/echo -n "$(basename "$0"): "; /' bin/smlist | r13
01:22:16 <HackEgo> rpub -a "$(onfranzr "$0"): "; gnvy -a+2 "$0" | knetf; rkvg \ funpuns \ zbadl \ ryyvbgg
01:22:35 <shachaf> `run sed -i '1s/^/echo -n "$(basename "$0"): "; /' bin/smlist
01:23:41 <shachaf> By the way, rot13ing to be considerate of me while messing with lists doesn't actually work.
01:23:46 <shachaf> I have a hilight on funpuns.
01:23:58 <shachaf> I hope «you know who» doesn't have a hilight on zbadl.
01:24:31 <HackEgo> smlist: shachaf monqy elliott
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01:25:42 <HackEgo> echo "$@" | tr a-zA-Z n-za-mN-ZA-M
01:26:05 <oerjan> pesky argument variations
01:26:21 <shachaf> There should be a standard for bin/ commands.
01:26:31 <shachaf> Such that they look at both $@ and stdin
01:27:09 <shachaf> Someone write a one-liner that checks if $@ is nonempty and if it is reruns $0 with $@ as stdin
01:27:20 <shachaf> And then put it at the beginning of everything
01:28:51 <oerjan> elliott: is it bad that while in backscroll i had the exact same idea as shachaf here?
01:30:08 <oerjan> having both r13 and rot13 is pretty silly though
01:30:41 <quintopia> oerjan: maybe one of them rotates 13 LEFT and the other rotates 13 RIGHT.
01:32:34 <shachaf> oerjan: I think I've mentioned this idea before.
01:32:40 <shachaf> Anyway it's how things Should Work.
01:34:03 <elliott> it should just be something that checks /proc/blah/cmdline and if stdin is closed and that's non-empty then it echos it on stdin
01:34:22 <oerjan> perhaps it would have been better if HackEgo used EgoBot's convention of passing the command line in stdin
01:34:54 <elliott> oerjan: then you couldn't use unix stuff without `run. although you barely can anyway.
01:34:54 <Bike> hackego's design has led to the most surreal design conversations, i swear
01:35:24 <oerjan> elliott: `run would work like EgoBot's !sh then
01:36:01 <quintopia> I'm built just the way I'm meant to be, so stop trying to change who I am!
01:36:22 <Bike> race condtion!!!
01:37:00 <oerjan> death by race condition
01:37:08 <quintopia> I'm built just the way I'm meant to be, so stop trying to change who I am!
01:37:23 <shachaf> imo stop botspamming the channel
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01:43:06 <Jafet> `run (echo '#!/bin/sh'; echo "cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric; cat \$(ls ????-??-??.txt | tail -1) | sed 's/[^>]*> //' | grep '^\`' | tail -1 #Best cheating quine ever?") > bin/quine
01:43:47 <Bike> `quine No output.
01:44:53 <Bike> every user in the channel has to test the race condition from now on
01:45:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ugh: not found
01:45:24 <Bike> thank you for demonstrating elliott
01:45:38 <oerjan> Jafet: hah i didn't think of that, that even works for encrypted quine
01:45:44 <Sgeo> Was going to do that, but wanted to copy/paste a newline
01:47:20 * oerjan thinks he will stay neutral on this issue
01:52:21 <shachaf> Wait, what was the old `quine command?
01:53:05 <Bike> probably the same sans the grep?
01:54:29 <Bike> now it's "race condition free"
01:58:39 <Sgeo> Hmm. How to fix the race condition: Make HackEgo look for the oldest thing it hasn't replied to?
01:59:29 <ais523> that has a reverse race condition
01:59:36 <elliott> like 70% of the point of `quine is to have the race
01:59:40 <ais523> where the two threads may not see each others' answers
01:59:58 <Bike> elliott: On the other hand, if we keep tacking on "solutions" to it we'll get an esolang.
02:01:42 <oerjan> an esolang based entirely on misbehaving cheating quines?
02:02:22 <Bike> Sgeo: I bet you can solve what ais523 said by looking through ps.
02:02:36 <oerjan> where to do actual computation you have to make the safeguards fail
02:02:38 <Bike> ais523: Shhhhh.
02:02:52 <Bike> I'm trying to design an esolang here.
02:03:17 <elliott> trying to get sgeo to design an esolang here
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02:03:27 <Bike> Sgeo is part of the design.
02:03:31 <Bike> You are all part of the design.
02:03:36 <Bike> Welcome... to my museum.
02:04:24 <Sgeo> Use a file as a lock?
02:04:32 <Sgeo> I don't really understand HackEgo that well
02:04:49 <Sgeo> Do the different threads each see different environments?
02:05:05 <oerjan> Sgeo: that will work _so_ well with all these timeouts
02:05:47 <oerjan> i don't think they do any longer, something transactions?
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02:20:40 <ais523> I thought I'd got the same value from two simultaneous `run echo $$ before now
02:20:51 <HackEgo> PID TTY TIME CMD \ 280 ? 00:00:00 init \ 282 ? 00:00:00 sh \ 285 ? 00:00:00 ps \ 286 ? 00:00:00 cat
02:21:00 <HackEgo> PID TTY TIME CMD \ 280 ? 00:00:00 init \ 282 ? 00:00:00 sh \ 285 ? 00:00:00 ps \ 286 ? 00:00:00 cat
02:21:01 <HackEgo> PID TTY TIME CMD \ 280 ? 00:00:00 init \ 282 ? 00:00:00 sh \ 283 ? 00:00:00 ps \ 284 ? 00:00:00 cat
02:21:15 <ais523> perhaps not, those ps runs seem to be aware of each other
02:21:33 <HackEgo> 5000 282 0.0 0.2 4008 564 ? S 02:21 0:00 sh -c 'env' 'PATH=/hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin' 'HACKENV=/hackenv' 'http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128' 'LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8' '/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits' 'bash' '-c' 'ps aux | grep ps' | cat \ 5000 285 0.0 0.5 123840 1460 ?
02:21:34 <HackEgo> 5000 282 0.0 0.2 4008 564 ? S 02:21 0:00 sh -c 'env' 'PATH=/hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin' 'HACKENV=/hackenv' 'http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128' 'LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8' '/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits' 'bash' '-c' 'ps aux | grep ps' | cat \ 5000 285 0.0 0.5 123840 1460 ?
02:22:15 <pikhq> Gregor: Why en_NZ?
02:22:32 <ais523> pikhq: that question gets asked all the time
02:22:39 <Bike> Because it's the cool place to be
02:22:39 <ais523> my guess is, so people will ask the question :)
02:23:16 <Gregor> pikhq: Because people complained when I set it to zh_TW
02:23:16 <lambdabot> Gregor: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
02:25:16 <elliott> I like hackego being from new zealand
02:25:24 <elliott> adds some international character to the channel
02:25:59 <Bike> wait what does NZ even change from like AU or UK
02:26:37 <pikhq> Technically, a program could have a New Zealand-specific localization.
02:26:54 <pikhq> I bet 100% of programs just use en_US though.
02:28:19 <Jafet> Unicode needs an INTERNATIONAL CHARACTER
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02:29:16 <Bike> petition to make multiocular o the designated international character of unicode
02:29:31 <elliott> how many signatures do you need for the president to do it
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02:29:51 <Bike> Does Unicode have a president?
02:31:06 <Jafet> `quine2 equine too
02:31:06 <Jafet> `run quine2 | rainwords
02:32:03 <Bike> Obama is the president of Unicode?
02:32:19 <Jafet> The president of things which have no presidents
02:32:33 <elliott> obama is just the president.
02:32:35 <Bike> I thought that was me.
02:32:41 <Bike> I mean we already founded the university.
02:32:46 <Bike> Of dumb professor titles.
02:32:56 <elliott> I didn't say he was a professor!
02:33:12 <Bike> Yes but we agreed that I was the founder, which makes me president as well by ancient law.
02:33:47 <elliott> I am pretty sure hope and change invalidated ancient law in 2008
02:34:46 <Bike> THANKS OBAMA >:|
02:40:42 <ais523> $ history | tail -n 1 | cut '-d ' -f 4-
02:40:43 <ais523> history | tail -n 1 | cut '-d ' -f 4-
02:40:52 <ais523> I made a `quine in bash :)
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02:41:31 <ais523> btw, that quoting of '-d ' looks really wrong to me
02:41:37 <ais523> although I guess -'d ' would be worse
02:41:41 <ais523> (-d' ' doesn't seem wrong to me)
02:43:28 <shachaf> ais523: Where's the race condition?
02:43:46 <shachaf> At least look in .bash_history instead of running `history`
02:43:53 <ais523> shachaf: that wouldn't make a difference
02:44:11 <ais523> I thought .bash_history only updated when the shell exited
02:44:26 <ais523> $ tail -n 1 .bash_history
02:44:27 <ais523> history | tail -n 1 | cut '-d ' -f 4-
02:45:22 <quintopia> what's the non-word-boundary rainbow command
02:46:10 <shachaf> ais523: There's an option for it.
02:46:16 <shachaf> You can make it write to .bash_history on every command.
02:47:20 <elliott> shopt -s histappend && tail -n 1 .bash_history
02:47:38 <shachaf> The point is to keep the race condition around.
02:48:59 <Bike> but thiw way you can get new and exciting race conditions
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03:09:34 <zzo38> Why does it make that many color codes
03:09:56 <quintopia> `run echo "so that zzo38 will ask lots of questions" | colorize
03:09:58 <HackEgo> so that zzo38 will ask lots of questions
03:10:29 <oerjan> zzo38: it just fills out the line until near HackEgo's limit, i suspect only your client even sees most of them so we haven't bothered to cut them down.
03:10:57 <oerjan> it's a bit of a waste when the line is short originally
03:11:52 <oerjan> i suppose a minimum somewhere could reduce it...
03:11:53 <quintopia> oh does it just randomly insert color codes monte carlo style
03:12:32 <quintopia> it seems you could at least make it not add a color code anywhere its already put one
03:12:34 <oerjan> quintopia: yeah it does a shuffle of a string containing x's and C's, the x'es for original content
03:12:44 <oerjan> quintopia: hm i guess...
03:12:53 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ python -c "import random; w=raw_input(); p=list('x'*len(w)+'C'*int((341-len(w))/3+1)); random.shuffle(p); i=(c for c in w); print ''.join(i.next() if c=='x' else chr(3)+'%02d' % random.randrange(2,15) for c in ['C']+p)"
03:14:38 <oerjan> quintopia: i'm looking up python regexp functions
03:15:48 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/colorize
03:19:16 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
03:19:24 <oerjan> `fetch http://oerjan.nvg.org/colorize
03:19:31 <HackEgo> 2013-03-01 03:19:30 URL:http://oerjan.nvg.org/colorize [258/258] -> "colorize" [1]
03:19:42 <oerjan> `run chmod a+x colorize
03:20:02 <oerjan> `run echo Test | ./colorize
03:20:04 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "./colorize", line 7, in <module> \ p=re.subst('C+','C',p) \ AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'subst'
03:20:44 <oerjan> `fetch http://oerjan.nvg.org/colorize
03:20:46 <HackEgo> 2013-03-01 03:20:45 URL:http://oerjan.nvg.org/colorize [256/256] -> "colorize.1" [1]
03:21:14 <oerjan> `run cat colorize.1 >colorize
03:21:20 <oerjan> `run echo Test | ./colorize
03:21:23 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "./colorize", line 7, in <module> \ p=re.sub('C+','C',p) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/re.py", line 151, in sub \ return _compile(pattern, flags).sub(repl, string, count) \ TypeError: expected string or buffer
03:22:11 <quintopia> does python seriously do str->int by turning it into its length?
03:23:08 <Bike> where did you get that idea quintopia
03:23:56 <Bike> that's regex substitution what does it have to do with numbers
03:24:27 <Bike> "re.sub(pattern, repl, string, count=0, flags=0)"
03:25:08 <Bike> a string, except oerjan actually made it a list
03:25:10 <oerjan> i still have no idea what the error is about
03:25:18 <Bike> i don't think python lists are strings
03:25:22 <Bike> i could be wrong, it's been a while
03:25:53 <Bike> str(['a','b']) => "['a','b']" awesome
03:26:11 <oerjan> how the fuck do I do this then...
03:26:47 <oerjan> and then split again? how convenient.
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03:27:00 <quintopia> you can change the last to loop over chars in the string
03:27:24 <oerjan> quintopia: you do it who actually know python
03:27:39 <Bike> What if you wrote a python->haskell compiler first?
03:27:42 <quintopia> just add a flag that records whether the last element was a 'C'
03:27:54 <quintopia> and refuses to print a color if so
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03:28:02 <elliott> how about write it in haskell instead
03:28:02 <oerjan> quintopia: we are _way_ beyond by patience quota here.
03:28:15 <quintopia> how about write in haskell instead
03:28:34 <elliott> what do I know about haskell?
03:28:37 <oerjan> `fetch http://oerjan.nvg.org/colorize
03:28:42 <HackEgo> 2013-03-01 03:28:41 URL:http://oerjan.nvg.org/colorize [235/235] -> "colorize.2" [1]
03:28:56 <Bike> i=(c for c in w) <-- it's beautiful
03:29:02 <oerjan> `run cat colorize.2 >bin/colorize
03:29:09 <kmc> python strings are not lists, but they are both iterable in the same way
03:29:15 <kmc> so many functions are happy to consume either
03:29:24 <Bike> kmc: BUT NOT RE.SUB
03:29:44 <oerjan> `run echo Test | colorize #This is just the old one reformatted
03:30:00 <oerjan> so at least that won't be lost
03:32:20 <kmc> there's random.shuffle
03:32:24 <kmc> but it wants to shuffle a list in place
03:32:38 <oerjan> that's what colorize uses
03:32:53 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import random \ import re \ w=raw_input() \ p=list('x'*len(w)+'C'*int((341-len(w))/3+1)) \ random.shuffle(p) \ i=(c for c in w) \ print ''.join(i.next() if c=='x' else chr(3)+'%02d' % random.randrange(2,15) for c in ['C']+p)
03:34:27 <Jafet> `run echo Colorize | colorize
03:35:01 <Bike> `run cat bin/colorize | colorize
03:36:20 <shachaf> `run echo "$(cat bin/colorize)" | colorize
03:36:29 <shachaf> `run echo "$(cat bin/colorize)"
03:36:31 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import random \ import re \ w=raw_input() \ p=list('x'*len(w)+'C'*int((341-len(w))/3+1)) \ random.shuffle(p) \ i=(c for c in w) \ print ''.join(i.next() if c=='x' else chr(3)+'%02d' % random.randrange(2,15) for c in ['C']+p)
03:36:36 <oerjan> `run sed -i '6ap=list(re.sub('C+','C',''.join(p)))' bin/colorize
03:36:40 <shachaf> `run echo $(cat bin/colorize) | colorize
03:36:43 <HackEgo> File "/hackenv/bin/colorize", line 7 \ p=list(re.sub(C+,C,.join(p))) \ ^ \ SyntaxError: invalid syntax
03:37:06 <oerjan> `run sed -i "6ap=list(re.sub('C+','C',''.join(p)))" bin/colorize
03:37:22 <oerjan> `run echo Test | colorize
03:37:39 <oerjan> zzo38: did that have fewer color codes?
03:37:43 <Jafet> `run echo Colorize | colorize
03:37:48 <Bike> shachaf: i'm gonna have to remember that one
03:38:22 <oerjan> seems from the logs like it worked.
03:40:02 <oerjan> i guess by what kmc said the final list(...) is redundant
03:42:34 <Bike> `run echo xaCtoKniFe | colorize
03:49:27 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes how there is only one control code for each letter
03:49:48 <oerjan> darn wikipedia broke wikEdDiff
03:50:27 <zzo38> Who is the pope now?
03:50:58 <oerjan> the conclave has not started yet
03:51:37 <Bike> we are in a popeless world
03:53:04 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen).
03:55:12 <kmc> 'Today there is no Pope, head of the CIA, or Sec. of Defense. We are so, so close to living John Lennon's dream.'
03:55:17 <kmc> Bike: they deleted his tweets too
03:55:35 <Sgeo> There's an archive
03:55:52 <Jafet> kmc: LSD is still illegal though
03:56:13 <elliott> kmc: are they like mad at him
03:56:38 <kmc> elliott: dunno
03:56:42 <Jafet> They write his tweets
03:56:44 <kmc> Jafet: yeah last i checked
03:58:13 * Sgeo is busy downloading all the stuff from sgeo.diagonalfish.net
03:58:41 <Bike> oh shit have you read growth and form too??
03:59:05 <elliott> You don't have permission to access / on this server.
03:59:24 <Sgeo> I can still FTP into it
03:59:29 -!- monqy has joined.
03:59:49 <Bike> get out while you still can
04:02:34 <Sgeo> Let's see if I can log into paranoia-live
04:06:16 <Sgeo> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16240872/12_30_06_device_mania.html
04:13:36 <shachaf> kmc: how often do you check
04:13:52 <elliott> i'd like to subscribe to `lsdlist on principle
04:14:06 <Sgeo> monqy, a Paranoia session I GMed
04:14:07 <Sgeo> http://www.creaturescaves.com/downloads.php?section=COBs&view=801
04:14:11 <Sgeo> ^^not Paranoia
04:15:00 <Bike> The COBs section
04:15:15 <Sgeo> Something I made years ago that was hosted on sgeo.diagonalfish.net
04:15:24 <Sgeo> It's been a "lost link" for some time
04:15:26 <monqy> ah are you going through your old stuff archives
04:15:37 <Sgeo> Just today gave malkin permission to post the copy that he had to this site
04:15:42 <Bike> what's happening to the diagonal fish
04:16:38 <monqy> by any chance would this diagonal fish archive happen to house the fabled “atheism directory„
04:17:24 <Bike> Ooh that sounds fun.
04:17:34 <Bike> What is the fabled “atheism directory„?
04:18:24 <monqy> i've only heard fables
04:18:48 <oerjan> i've only heard people fabling about the fables
04:19:33 <Sgeo> Ok. What is my math homework doing in the atheism directory?
04:19:51 <Bike> I don't know! Maybe it would help if you explained what the fabled “atheism directory„ is.
04:20:10 <Sgeo> Just my thoughts/code relating to religion
04:22:04 <zzo38> What are your thoughts/code relating to religion?
04:22:22 <Sgeo> Can I just, like, upload a directory to dropbox?
04:23:39 <monqy> i think so but you might have to do something special to give directory listing permissions?? or you could zip it up and upload that
04:24:46 <zzo38> Or shell archive it in which case it can even work with sprunge
04:27:32 <zzo38> In GCC does including cases with __builtin_unreachable make it not going to be worse than it ordinarily is?
04:30:31 <Sgeo> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16240872/atheism.zip
04:31:27 <Bike> man i am so pumped for this
04:31:33 <Bike> are you ready to get your folk theology deconstructed???
04:32:16 <Sgeo> This is all from years ago
04:32:54 <Sgeo> One of those was something some religious person gave me to read I think
04:35:39 <Bike> oh that's some kabbalah shit right there son
04:36:07 <Sgeo> I hope that it's clear that I never actually believed that, and it was just musings on various possible theologies that would make more sense.
04:37:27 <Bike> wow there is actually code.
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05:04:44 <madbr> I think it's possible to do a CPU that can autovectorize any loop
05:06:02 <zzo38> Maybe, but sometimes vectorizing by compiler would be preferable.
05:06:28 <madbr> yeah it's essentially applying a vectorizing compilation on the fly
05:06:34 <madbr> the concepts are the same
05:07:04 <madbr> you take your 32 register RISC
05:07:10 <madbr> classic design etc
05:07:33 <madbr> but you have 4 or 8 or howerver many sub-cores
05:07:48 <madbr> run the same operations on the 4 or 8 cores
05:08:22 <zzo38> I prefer "worse-is-better" design
05:08:40 <madbr> if a branch goes different ways on different cores then you invalidate the results on subsequent cores
05:09:24 <zzo38> Simplicity-the design must be simple, both in implementation and interface. It is more important for the implementation to be simple than the interface. Simplicity is the most important consideration in a design.
05:09:31 <zzo38> Correctness-the design must be correct in all observable aspects. It is slightly better to be simple than correct.
05:09:40 <zzo38> Consistency-the design must not be overly inconsistent. Consistency can be sacrificed for simplicity in some cases, but it is better to drop those parts of the design that deal with less common circumstances than to introduce either implementational complexity or inconsistency.
05:09:44 <zzo38> Completeness-the design must cover as many important situations as is practical. All reasonably expected cases should be covered. Completeness can be sacrificed in favor of any other quality. In fact, completeness must sacrificed whenever implementation simplicity is jeopardized. Consistency can be sacrificed to achieve completeness if simplicity is retained; especially worthless is consistency of interface.
05:09:47 <zzo38> That is what it is.
05:12:14 <madbr> does it have C++ compiled code more or less optimally?
05:12:48 <madbr> yes -> superscalar 2 issue classic risc architecture we've seen a zillion times
05:12:48 <Bike> the defining question of our times
05:13:58 <madbr> no the user can use intrinsics or de-aliasing keywords -> SIMD of some kind
05:14:18 <madbr> essentially that's what a GPU is, for instance
05:14:40 <madbr> VLIW of some kind optimized for max throughput
05:14:51 <madbr> see also: Cell, Larrabbee
05:15:59 <madbr> no the user will write custom assembly -> DSP of some kind with SIMD
05:16:11 <madbr> (even more throughput-oriented architecture)
05:22:35 <madbr> kinda wonder how easily LLVM can
05:22:56 <madbr> (2) guess which pointers can't alias which others
05:23:37 <ais523> GPUs aren't particularly VLIW, rather they have different sorts of memory which each have different aliasing behaviour
05:23:47 <madbr> if (1) is easy then any loop can be unrolled N times (first step to the kind of auto-vectorization I'm thinking about)
05:25:29 <madbr> once you have your loop unrolled, say, 4 times, you can try to reorder the instructions to put each set of 4 identical operations together
05:25:38 <madbr> this is where (2) comes in
05:26:02 <madbr> if LLVM's alias analysis fails (ie it finds two pointers can alias)
05:26:39 <madbr> then it can't reorder the memory operations and you'll never be able to combine your sets of 4x identical operations together
05:27:10 <madbr> (because you'd have to violate memory operation ordering constraints)
05:28:19 <madbr> however if it passes then you can vectorize any operation
05:28:49 <madbr> though you'll need special versions of the opcodes that can feedback operands from unit to unit
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05:35:26 <madbr> I guess for DSP and gfx processing loops
05:35:36 <madbr> your looping condition is going to be N iterations
05:35:41 <madbr> so that's easy to unroll
05:36:14 <madbr> the problem with DSP is that while it usually writes in 1 place, it normally reads all over the place
05:36:28 <madbr> (look up tables, sample data...)
05:38:45 <zzo38> I think LLVM doesn't always need to guess since you can specify explicitly some ways too.
05:38:59 <zzo38> Such as the restrict command and the !tbaa command.
05:43:24 <madbr> "‘llvm.loop.parallel‘ Metadata"
05:46:45 <zzo38> O, yes, there is that, too!
05:52:43 <zzo38> But LLVM doesn't have a command to change the number of bits in one byte.
05:56:29 <madbr> what's the interest of doing that?
05:56:49 <Bike> making the KillComp 9007 a reality
05:58:08 <zzo38> There are computers and virtual machines with different number of bits in one byte.
06:00:19 <madbr> I've heard of 9, 12 and 36 bit words yes
06:00:51 <zzo38> Yes I mean things such as that
06:01:20 <zzo38> But I also mean including 4-bits and 32-bits and whatever else there might be.
06:01:51 <Bike> Doesn't CHAR_BIT have to be at least 8?
06:03:14 <ais523> yeah, it's 8 as a minimum
06:03:15 <pikhq> Bike: In C it must be at least 8 bits.
06:03:19 <zzo38> I think it does in C, and probably should in LLVM too except in cases where the module contains a command explicitly saying otherwise.
06:03:21 <pikhq> In POSIX it must be exactly 8 bits.
06:04:26 <zzo38> In many cases you wouldn't care about POSIX though.
06:04:57 <zzo38> LLVM also dosen't have attributes to indicate commutative and associative function parameters, but maybe it should have
06:05:07 <zzo38> Since it might be useful for some kind of optimizations.
06:07:55 <madbr> I think it can flag some opcodes as commutative
06:08:16 <madbr> so actually if it inlines your function it might do that to your additions
06:11:37 <zzo38> Yes I have looked at the source-codes it seems like it does that, but it doesn't mean you can specify that your own function has that property in other cases too (including external functions).
06:14:19 <madbr> I don't think it's really much of an important avenue for optim
06:15:12 <Bike> it is if you're doing mapreduce or something, but then why are you doing llvm?
06:17:23 <zzo38> I suppose it is because they don't have other ones.
06:18:00 <zzo38> LLVM also doesn't compile into many targets which GCC supports.
06:19:21 <zzo38> Such as MMIX and ARM2 and so on, so LLVM programs are not as portable as GCC, for now.
06:19:51 <zzo38> Neither LLVM nor GCC supports Z-machine or Glulx, though, as far as I can see.
06:21:08 <Bike> Do either of them compile to naval automatic differential analyzers, for use in aiming cannons?
06:25:17 <madbr> llvm supports later ARMs no?
06:25:39 <zzo38> Yes LLVM does support later ARMs but not all the old ones too like GCC supports even ARM1
06:26:05 <zzo38> And there are computers other than ARM.
06:26:05 <Bike> Do you have old ARM machines you need to support?
06:26:47 <zzo38> Yes (mainly due to patent issues).
06:27:47 <madbr> so, how's the dsp unit design going
06:29:32 <zzo38> Well, I don't actually have the equipment yet but mostly I just think about it, I have various papers I have written ideas on
06:29:56 <zzo38> However mostly now I am working on VGMCK.
06:31:27 <zzo38> (At this time, I am adding support for OPLL, although I eventually intend to have all of them, as well as other additional features.)
06:33:09 <madbr> anything seem particularly promising?
06:35:00 <zzo38> Therefore, I must learn. But I am not working on hardware right now since I have other things to do.
06:38:14 <Sgeo> I think I may be evil
06:38:18 <Sgeo> I'm back in norn torture mode
06:38:43 <Bike> no sgeo! resist!!!!!
06:39:15 <Sgeo> Actually, it's someone else's norn
06:39:26 <Sgeo> I gave them the genetics, but he's observing what the norn is doing
06:39:41 <Sgeo> So, kind of out of my hands, unless I scream "PUT THE POOR NORN OUT OF ITS MISERY"
06:40:03 <Bike> wow so you're a second-degree sociopath
06:40:23 <Sgeo> Although actually he's mind controlling the norn to get him to eat, so that's a thing.
06:40:57 <Sgeo> It's good. The condition the norn has makes the norn unwilling to eat food after he's eaten food a few times.
06:41:06 <Sgeo> Or, well, unwilling to do anything after doing that thing a few times.
06:42:43 <Bike> Hm, how'd you manage that?
06:42:52 <Sgeo> There's a chemical called Punishment
06:43:04 <Sgeo> I added a gene that makes sure the norn is always filled with Punishment
06:45:54 <Sgeo> "post mind-control + tickling, he seems to eat when prompted"
07:01:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
07:02:13 <Bike> `run touch bin/$(echo)
07:02:19 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
07:02:35 <Bike> `run touch bin/$(echo -n)
07:02:41 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
07:03:07 <HackEgo> Error in BasicExpressionFormatter.formatEnumerating in evaluation \ Error in BasicExpressionFormatter.formatEnumerating in evaluation Range operator endpoints are conformal, but require you to specify an conformal step.
07:03:47 <HackEgo> 2527 units, 72 prefixes, 56 nonlinear units \ \ You have:
07:04:29 <Bike> `units '5.5 km/h' 'mi/h'
07:04:48 <HackEgo> Definition: 1.4152697e+66 s^2 / kg^2 m^4
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07:47:59 <Sgeo> Grah, the Internship website I found is just for students :(
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07:57:46 <Sgeo> Trying not to flip out over an important website in the Creatures Community storing passwords in plain text.
07:59:26 <olsner> flipping out is sort of a reasonable response to that
08:00:10 <olsner> otoh, someone storing passwords in plain text is likely to completely miss what the fuzz is about
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08:00:30 <Sgeo> Apparently, they originally thought I meant in cookies
08:00:44 <Sgeo> Although the conversation was going through an intermediary
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09:14:20 <zzo38> VGMCK is now up to version 0.6.
09:14:36 <zzo38> Eventually it will come up to version 1.0 and then more after that too.
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10:11:14 <Jafet> Someone who uses a different password for each password field would also miss what the fuzz is about.
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10:26:23 <c00kiemon5ter> fungot, do you use different passwords and/or even change them often ?
10:26:23 <fungot> c00kiemon5ter: i can't make
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13:57:10 <Phantom_Hoover> i love the tiny glimpse that command gives into Sgeo's life
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15:21:36 <Sgeo> That's it. I am fucking DONE with trying to get people to fix their password security
15:21:46 <Sgeo> The admin made changes. Those changes are HORRIBLE>
15:22:13 <Taneb> 'everyone's password must be "password", so you don't forget it'
15:23:00 <Sgeo> Ok, not that bad
15:23:11 <Sgeo> But it's a not-well-thought-out password reset
15:23:17 <Sgeo> Which obliterates the original password
15:24:44 <Taneb> I find two-columned text oddly hard to read
15:25:24 <Sgeo> wehuiofpawuoehfaeruitr
15:25:31 <Sgeo> I should stop helping people
15:25:45 <Sgeo> People do worse things than they were doing originally when they try to take my advice
15:26:32 <Taneb> Or maybe you're just not helping people enough
15:31:51 <Sgeo> The website in question has gone from "There's a theoretical weakness that would make your users' lives worse if the website was hacked into." to "Now there's an actual vulnerability."
15:32:46 <Taneb> Tell the admin this and give him specific recommendations
15:33:22 <Sgeo> Told the admin, but I should probably actually recommend something, rather than describing the problem
15:33:29 <Sgeo> Only good recommendation is to use a library
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17:26:25 <impomatic> Sgeo: Creatures as in the Steve Grand game?
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17:35:36 <Sgeo> impomatic, yes
17:36:35 * impomatic tinkers with that occasionally :-) I only have Creatures 2 PC and the Gameboy version though.
17:36:45 <impomatic> I'm still looking for a Norn doll!
17:37:35 <Sgeo> impomatic, well, Docking Station is free!
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18:09:29 <elliott> do i have lambdabot messages
18:09:30 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:10:54 <boily> long live vietnamese cuisine.
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18:55:56 * Sgeo nostalgias at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16240872/Pool2.JPG
19:07:28 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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20:27:57 <oerjan> > [asin, acos] <*> [-1, 0, 1]
20:27:59 <lambdabot> [-1.5707963267948966,0.0,1.5707963267948966,3.141592653589793,1.57079632679...
20:28:06 <oerjan> > [asin, acos] <*> [-1, 0, 1] :: [Float]
20:28:09 <lambdabot> [-1.5707964,0.0,1.5707964,3.1415927,1.5707964,0.0]
20:34:04 <nooga> http://cl.ly/image/170J1K1L280j I suck at DF, therefore I started hacking it
20:35:00 <nooga> WITH LISP (DIALECT) !
20:35:23 <nooga> so that I can nerd while I nerd
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20:40:14 <boily> ~duck dwarf fortress
20:40:15 <metasepia> Slaves to Armok: God of Blood Chapter II: Dwarf Fortress is a part roguelike, part city-building freeware video game set in a procedurally-generated high fantasy universe in which the player takes control of a group of dwarves and attempts to construct a successful and wealthy mountainhome.
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20:43:57 <boily> ~duck fucking hard
20:45:40 <nooga> FreeFull: i just tried the js version and I don't understand a thing
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20:46:56 <FreeFull> nooga: I'm reading the dissertation
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20:53:25 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo
20:55:52 <oerjan> > [x-asin(sin x) | x <- [0 :: Float , 0.1 ..]]
20:55:54 <lambdabot> [0.0,-7.450581e-9,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,-5.9604645e-8,5.9604645e-8,5.9604645e...
20:56:11 <oerjan> > [x-asin(sin x) | x <- [0 :: Float , 0.5 ..]]
20:56:13 <lambdabot> [0.0,0.0,0.0,-1.1920929e-7,0.8584074,1.8584074,2.8584073,3.8584073,4.858407...
20:57:31 <impomatic> Hmmm... Core War with time travelling processes http://perso.ens-lyon.fr/martin.bodin/timecorewar.html.en
20:58:46 <oerjan> > [x-asin(sin x) | x <- [0 :: Float , pi/4 ..]]
20:58:48 <lambdabot> [0.0,-5.9604645e-8,0.0,1.5707964,3.1415923,4.7123885,6.283185,6.283185,6.28...
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21:06:11 <oerjan> oh that won't be discontinuous, but more like a sawtooth kind of thing
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21:32:19 <oerjan> hm seems mezzacotta also has a lovecraft style
21:32:34 <oerjan> fungot: are you secretly mezzacotta's scriptwriter?
21:32:34 <fungot> oerjan: that would make you... perhaps if you are using. the executables it created; it was written in pl/ 1, 1
21:32:55 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
21:33:17 <oerjan> fungot: explain hyperbolic geometry please
21:33:19 <fungot> oerjan: it got wuss araound civil war time, when my friend had attained a size and muscular power not usually found in infants under a full year of age. his motions and even his vocal sounds showed a restraint and deliberateness highly peculiar in an infant, and no previous grave had been disturbed not many months before. on the butcher's shop of the cannibal monster committed from arkham sixteen years before; and upon being re
21:34:23 <boily> hm. looks like fungot doesn't like being poked.
21:34:24 <fungot> boily: the next january gossips were mildly interested in the antiquities he knew so well. he had a characteristic way of ringing the doorbell or sounding the knocker that grew to be a rudimentary eye; whilst in lieu of stairs. the tread was heavy, deliberate tramping in the cottage, and olney heard the windows opening, first on small animals and then on human bodies shockingly obtained. there was nothing anywhere but blackness
21:35:11 <oerjan> maybe it's connected to that heisenbug triggered when fungot produces very long lines
21:35:12 <fungot> koi{s: " the other gods, who are prone to fnord the details, and far below him on his wedding night." upon that night the wanderers left ulthar, and were impressed by a curious group of half-castes whose frequent meetings and night trips to the woods in a vague fashion; and i felt deeply moved despite my rational beliefs. wilcox, i was on the evening of july fnord, when the intrusion of a single, loosely knit nation or fnord, n
21:36:43 * boily pokes fungot without knowing the poke's velocity
21:36:44 <fungot> boily: as the men passed the site of his camp. our apprehensions were over what we might find, or fail to find, and proceeded to follow their usual course. with torch flashing intermittently to save the rejected specimen, and would admit no one. i went to fnord for there is no sharp distinction betwixt the real and the unreal; that all things appear as they do. i paint in the cellar laboratory when i learned that i was calmer,
21:37:32 <oerjan> i _think_ it has the effect of garbling the next line from the channel
21:37:42 <oerjan> and yours was right after mine
21:38:11 <boily> garbling with fungot can be quite the problem to debug.
21:38:12 <fungot> boily: ' and is this what asks so hotly for a reckoning? suppose a man does find it now and then in public assemblies, and who find their greatest consolation in the fawning and fnord attachments of a fnord laundry worker named fnord wolejko had completely vanished from sight. the weather kept fair, and for the searchlight. we often cast a beam of light down the stygian hold. for about ten feet, he saw the hills and converse wi
21:38:17 <fungot> oerjan: " that is ultra-violet." he looked curiously at me for a sterner and more lingering end, i saw no living thing nor any light save that of the previous summer, while the slant-eyed merchant was an agent of the darker powers, eager to aid our memory by telling us how we came there, and will be fnord at as obvious impostures, notwithstanding a general resemblance to the vocal organs of man, and had been diligently instruct
21:38:20 <fungot> oerjan: " el coyote el fnord el fnord to?" i spoke with the leaders in the soft glow of late afternoon that i first felt the terrible fatigue and short breath which our race through the thin plateau air had fnord but the paintings and rough inscriptions on the peeling walls of most of his tales, being apparently more interested in the ancient house for hundreds of years, but which he would have shewn what he did.
21:38:30 <fungot> oerjan: it was young danforth who drew our notice to the curious.' when i read in these books or saw in these fields and groves was exactly what we thought we had heard since coming on the camp horror it would have been inconceivable ages ago, when the wind was friendly or adverse, it would appear; though no doubt the meteor had poisoned the soil, but it will have no powers of earth's friendly cats. he knew but a few words of e
21:38:41 <oerjan> doesn't seem to trigger agin
21:39:20 <oerjan> well we only notice it if it garbles either the "fungot" or the nick
21:39:20 <fungot> oerjan: what had happened. he did not delay the operation. nothing was emitted, and all the loathsome fnord turned from their tasks to stare seaward and cluster round the waterfront. certainly, the emotional cataclysm or revelation which could produce so radical an fnord must be much more considerable than is generally imagined. cabbalism itself, so that the earths internal heat could fnord its habitability for an indefinite pe
21:39:23 <boily> I should try to avoid quantum pokes considering the present stellar alignment.
21:40:10 <oerjan> are you saying that the stars are right
21:41:03 <olsner> fungot: tell me more about el coyote el fnord
21:41:03 <fungot> olsner: gilman sat in a row six noble forms with the aspect of that city, and the very presence of one in the afternoon i spent much time tracing the walls and bygone streets, and can't tell you, it is the fnord of
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21:44:44 <boily> oerjan: stars are never right. order is disorder. all hail eris!
21:45:43 <oerjan> i'm not sure whether you are arguing for or against the great old ones returning there
21:46:03 <oerjan> maybe that's part of the madness.
21:47:02 <boily> I have sushi planned tonight. the great old ones, I eat them.
21:47:32 <oerjan> i thought sushi was more like the deep ones
21:48:10 <olsner> I think sushi are the ones in slices with rice under them
21:49:10 <Fiora> there's many types of sushi, the defining factor is the vinegar'd sushi rice
21:49:50 <elliott> isn't vinegared a word to start with
21:50:31 <Fiora> the rice topped with sashimi (or egg/etc) and wrapped in nori are nigirizushi
21:50:38 <Fiora> the rolls are makizushi
21:59:12 <pikhq> Yeah, "sushi" is literally any dish made with sushi rice.
21:59:32 <FreeFull> Why does it become a RealFloat rather than Num if I add an integer?
21:59:50 <FreeFull> Actually, adding anything seems to do that
22:00:30 <elliott> because of the Complex instance for Num
22:00:35 <elliott> that's not adding an integer, btw
22:00:40 <Sgeo> I have a telephone interview with a company that
22:00:41 <Sgeo> "We provide deal execution software, institutional investor data, and market analytics to almost every major investment bank in the world."
22:00:55 <pikhq> :+ is the constructor for Complex, isn't it?
22:01:08 <FreeFull> Ah, the Num instance for Complex has a RealFloat constraint
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22:01:44 <FreeFull> And the type constructor doesn't really enforce anything
22:03:06 <pikhq> > "This is a" :+ "strange Complex value."
22:03:08 <lambdabot> "This is a" :+ "strange Complex value."
22:06:08 <Sgeo> > 1 :+ 2 + 3 :+ 4
22:06:10 <lambdabot> cannot mix `Data.Complex.:+' [infix 6] and `G...
22:07:03 <Sgeo> Anyone ever abuse Identity monad to do <$> <*> ?
22:07:28 <Sgeo> Should be possible, right?
22:07:49 <elliott> not sure I understand what you mean
22:07:52 <Sgeo> > runIdentity $ (,,) <$> 1 <*> 2 <*> 3
22:07:54 <lambdabot> No instances for (GHC.Num.Num (Data.Functor.Identity.Identity a2),
22:08:09 <Sgeo> > runIdentity $ (,,) <$> pure 1 <*> pure 2 <*> pure 3
22:08:18 <Sgeo> Ok, that's hideous
22:08:22 <elliott> not sure what that buys you over saying (1,2,3)?
22:08:28 <olsner> obviously you can do anything with the Identity monad - the big question is why you'd want to
22:08:30 <elliott> or in general f <$> pure x <*> pure y --> f x y
22:08:51 <Sgeo> elliott, save parens, like a $ with more than one argument
22:09:41 <boily> identity is useful as a foundation block for monad stacks.
22:09:44 <elliott> Sgeo: but you need to say pure (a b c).
22:09:55 <elliott> infixl ($) works for this purpose -- f $ x $ y -- unfortunately it is not in the Haskell standard
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22:18:39 <oerjan> > f `id` x `id` "shocking" :: Expr
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22:30:41 <oerjan> elliott: btw do you speak from experience when telling not to give edwardk your github account name.
22:31:18 <shachaf> o, cruel, bitter experience
22:31:19 <olsner> what happens when you do that?
22:31:45 <elliott> oerjan: that joke doesn't quite make sense if you are not in -lens but yes :P
22:32:01 <oerjan> olsner: i _assume_ edwardk then forks all your projects to use supergeneral CT concepts
22:32:15 <elliott> edwardk's response to bug reports and feature requests generally involves giving you commit access and telling you to go for it
22:32:29 <elliott> it's amazing how effective it is
22:32:49 <oerjan> no wonder lens is approaching singularity
22:33:24 <oerjan> although the list of modules loaded by ghci when i use import Control.Lens in a program is fearsome.
22:33:37 <oerjan> i assume i could reduce it by importing submodules
22:36:42 <olsner> there should be a nice way to make it so that if you have lens and some other package installed at the same time you'll get the lens magic, but so that neither library has to depend on the other
22:37:28 <elliott> olsner: you can already derive lenses for types you imported from elsewhere
22:37:53 <oerjan> olsner: yes, i think the cabal system needs a way to do optional dependencies
22:38:09 <oerjan> in general, not just for lens
22:38:14 <olsner> I think optional dependencies normally lead to a different kind of hell though
22:38:49 <olsner> e.g. where you have to reconfigure every installed package because you realize you want lens support
22:38:50 <elliott> I think I view optional dependencies as an antipattern.
22:39:38 <oerjan> well, optional modules which can have additional dependencies, then
22:40:43 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a0' in the constraints:
22:40:55 <oerjan> FreeFull: you need the :: Expr
22:41:12 <oerjan> f is too overloaded to resolve unambiguously otherwise
22:42:39 <olsner> hmm, can you write a generic function that is whatever djinn would generate for the type you're trying to use it as?
22:43:06 <oerjan> basically if you have a package that gives a type class and a package which gives an unrelated data type which could be an instance of that type class, it _should_ be possible to include the instance in one of the packages without forcing them to depend on each other
22:44:04 <oerjan> and there needs to be a way to make that not have the overhead of an orphan instance, too :P
22:44:56 <olsner> isn't the biggest overhead with orphan instances that you have to participate in the regularly occuring debate on what to do with them?
22:45:12 * oerjan doesn't usually participate in that
22:45:49 <olsner> me neither, I barely even haskell in the first place
22:46:29 <elliott> oerjan: well unfortunately open world assumption makes that fundamentally unsound
22:47:11 <oerjan> elliott: with current haskell, yes. i'm imagining an extension that allows you to do it anyhow.
22:47:19 <oerjan> _without_ violating open world.
22:49:09 <oerjan> basically, either a module defining either the class or one of the involved types would have to contain a declaration where to look for the rest
22:51:00 <olsner> maybe if you write "instance Monad in Data.Pony.MonadInstance", anything trying to find an instance of Monad for ponies will import the MonadInstance module
22:53:41 <olsner> but let's say Monad is a weird type class from an obscure package that few people want to use, and that this line occurs in one of the pony modules
22:56:13 <oerjan> hm i can see a possible problem of this leaking instances _other_ than the one you are trying to provide
22:56:22 <olsner> the other direction might need something like "instance Monad for Data.Pony in Data.Pony.MonadInstance"? then the compiler knows not to do anything unless you're using types from Data.Pony, even if the Monad library contains a thousand of those instance-can-be-found-in directives
22:57:59 <olsner> though I suspect something like this may end up trying to import every module that exists, exploding the compiler
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23:01:09 <oerjan> ...MUST ...RESIST ...TEMPTATION
23:01:15 <olsner> oerjan: is leaking instances a problem though?
23:02:23 <olsner> also, what is this temptation you must resist?
23:02:36 <Bike> the temptation to import every pony at once
23:03:10 <oerjan> olsner: the problem is that if those instances don't have similar declarations, you destroy the efficiency gain of ghc not having to consider the first ones orphans. well maybe.
23:03:25 <oerjan> no, the temptation to say "no it doesn't". hth.
23:04:29 <oerjan> hm i guess you wouldn't, actually
23:05:07 <oerjan> as in, it might not be a bigger problem than without the declarations, anyway
23:06:02 <oerjan> the problem is if combining this with the cross-package optional import stuff
23:07:02 <oerjan> because you don't want things to change in code that doesn't mention stuff in a package dependent on whether that package is installed or not
23:07:21 <oerjan> it would be like orphan instances magnified
23:09:43 <oerjan> that is, orphan instances would become _completely_ unmaintainable if they could leak across optional dependencies.
23:11:59 <olsner> hmm, I think it should only affect any code that imports both pony and monad, and since everyone shares the same orphan instance it should be fine?
23:12:16 <olsner> or something, I'm not entirely sure what the "problem" is in the first place
23:23:45 <oerjan> olsner: oh hm i guess your solution does not involve any extra module...
23:25:49 <oerjan> olsner: the problem is if Data.Pony.MonadInstance happens to either directly or indirectly export any orphan instances _other_ than the Monad Pony one.
23:26:42 <oerjan> hm still not sure this is worse than the current situation
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00:05:37 <Sgeo> kmc, when you asked me how many interviews I had, were you counting telephone interviews?
00:05:48 <Sgeo> Because if you were, I did have one (before I got the upcoming one today)
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00:38:31 <elliott> um i thought i had a question
00:39:29 <HackEgo> THECOLONIAL: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
00:40:33 <HackEgo> ThEcOlOnIaL: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
00:40:53 <Bike> do you come in a set with ThePostcolonial
00:40:55 * oerjan pats his question dissolving raygun
00:40:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ｗｅｌｃｏｍｅ: not found
00:41:12 <Lumpio-> I was pretty sure there was an obnocious fullwidth one
00:41:16 <TheColonial> Bike I've never been asked before, but I'll see if I can drum something up :)
00:41:38 <Bike> or is it ThePostColonial
00:41:41 <Bike> i just don't know
00:41:53 <elliott> sounds like a really shitty band
00:41:54 <HackEgo> TheColonial: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:42:15 <Bike> elliott: but they're so sensitive to modern issues!!
00:42:24 <Lumpio-> Can "colonial" refer to the colon?
00:42:25 <TheColonial> I stumbled on this channel in a rather esoteric way, how fitting.
00:42:27 <oerjan> welcome to the welcome bubble
00:42:47 <TheColonial> Lumpio-: sometimes I sign in to places which chop usernames to 8chars.. I end up as "TheColon".
00:44:07 <TheColonial> I see someone has had a fair bit of fun with the welcome script.
00:44:25 <TheColonial> So is this place packed with PLT geeks? :)
00:45:10 <Bike> do you count as a PLT geek if you can say "homotopy type theory" without stuttering
00:45:43 <TheColonial> I believe I can, but I reckon that doesn't make me a PLT geek!
00:48:37 <oerjan> i can say it without stuttering, but i don't actually know what it means!
00:48:50 <elliott> i thought oerjan knew everything...
00:48:51 * oerjan knows some other type theory though
00:49:32 <oerjan> elliott: my intuition knows everything, but it is very bad at communicating with my rational mind...
00:49:38 <TheColonial> I actually stumbled on this channel after a Google search coughed this up http://tunes.org/~nef//logs/esoteric/13.01.03
00:50:49 <Bike> esoteric, where even your segfaults are turing-complete
00:50:55 <elliott> who would still join this place after getting logged evidence of how terrible it is??
00:51:17 <TheColonial> Well, that says a lot about me doesn't it.
00:51:37 <TheColonial> I'm actually interested in the discussion between kmc and shachaf
00:52:48 <TheColonial> so do you guys all spend time working on crazy languages of your own?
00:53:03 <elliott> we spend roughly 0% of our time working
00:53:24 <elliott> if you're looking for sitting around and complaining about things though then this is your channel
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01:11:35 <HackEgo> TheColonial: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:19:18 <shachaf> Bike: I think you have to at least know what it is.
01:19:51 <elliott> it's type theory that uses homotopy
01:20:28 <shachaf> I went to dolio's talk about it once.
01:20:37 <shachaf> http://comonad.com/reader/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/slides.pdf
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01:49:01 <TheColonial> shachaf: do you have a second for a question?
01:49:58 <TheColonial> I'm actually interested in a discussion between you and kmc... found it here: http://tunes.org/~nef//logs/esoteric/13.01.03
01:53:35 <shachaf> I maintain that ask your question into the abyss of #esoteric and see what happens.
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02:15:50 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo
02:16:15 <shachaf> oerjan: I don't see an update since Sgeo's `olist?
02:16:48 <shachaf> Which you thanked him for, so presumably you've seen it?
02:17:03 <oerjan> maybe i'm just permanently 1 behind y'all :P
02:17:05 <shachaf> (Or maybe that was another cache issue?)
02:17:21 <oerjan> after his `olist i found #874, which was new to me then
02:17:36 <oerjan> i thought it _was_ fixed, since new ones appeared...
02:17:37 <shachaf> When I saw his `olist I saw 875
02:18:28 <shachaf> Do what I do: Disable your cache.
02:20:02 <oerjan> maybe there is something weird about how giantitp.com does things
02:20:34 <oerjan> if i disable cache, won't everything else frequently visited load slowly
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02:30:10 <madbr> the guy in that ARM paper said that all architectures have warts... so true
02:30:49 <shachaf> oerjan: By "disable cache" I mean that I do everything in Incognito Mode in Chromium.
02:30:59 <shachaf> So all cache/cookies/etc. is lost between sessions.
02:31:43 <oerjan> oh hm maybe i could visit _just_ oots in privacy mode...
02:32:02 <madbr> context : I just learned that MIPS has an add opcode that causes an exception if the result overflows :O
02:32:20 * oerjan has never used that mode before, afahr
02:32:37 <Bike> madbr: what, integer add?
02:32:56 <shachaf> I don't remember how it goes.
02:33:05 <oerjan> i recall seeing such an option
02:33:06 <madbr> bike : it's just as crazy in float but yeah integer add
02:33:49 <Bike> haha, what the hell? why?
02:34:10 <madbr> it has a non-exception causing add too tho
02:34:11 <Fiora> being able to trap overflows in a language without extra overhead ,I'm guessing?
02:34:22 <Fiora> in x86 you'd have to do a "jo" after every single add
02:34:28 <madbr> fiora : yeah but in practice there's no point
02:34:46 <madbr> there's no language where that's a sensible thing to do
02:35:01 <Fiora> ... I thought lisp had to check for overflow on its adds?
02:35:30 <Fiora> sounds kinda nice for debugging too, though now there's that IOC thing
02:35:35 <madbr> what, overflowing ops are automatically promoted to bignums?
02:35:54 <Fiora> um. bike would know more
02:36:09 <madbr> fiora : doing a "jo" after every add is probably faster actually
02:36:25 <Fiora> I'm guessing the jo is faster if it ever actually happens
02:36:33 <Fiora> and slower if it doesn't?
02:36:47 <madbr> unless it's using leftover silicon
02:37:53 <madbr> but normally if you're actually in the kind of case where it would be useful, you're probably in some non-numerical code
02:38:12 <madbr> that is full of branches and memory loads
02:38:33 <Bike> yeah, dropping to bignums makes everything way slow
02:39:24 <madbr> yeah, just like in floating point when you have INF or NAN
02:39:36 <madbr> or denormals, those are the WORST
02:39:38 <Bike> I doubt CL is the only system that would want dropping to bignums to be easier, though
02:39:43 <Bike> does anyone actually like denormals?
02:40:30 <madbr> the stupid handling of denormals on x86 is a bad problem in sound handling code
02:42:05 <Fiora> it's that thing where if you end up with denormals, it gets like 100x slower, right?
02:42:05 <madbr> it's like HELLO YOUR PROCESSING IS SUDDENLY HUNDREADS OF TIMES SLOWER WHOOPS YOU MISSED THE SOUNDBUFFER DEADLINE OH WELL AT LEAST YOUR RESULT IS GONNA BE REALLY ACCURANTE NO?
02:42:12 <Fiora> so you can practically DDOS a system
02:42:15 <Fiora> by feeding it bad floats
02:42:34 <Bike> that sounds about as hilarious an attack as redos
02:42:34 <madbr> and it's really easy to get denormals in sound
02:42:46 <madbr> send a sound into a reverb then send silence
02:43:13 <madbr> yay your values are now decaying towards the ones that will make your cpu blow up
02:43:40 <madbr> same for filters (except faster)
02:43:47 <Fiora> does DAZ solve that problem?
02:43:47 <Jafet> "Broadwell will introduce some ISA extensions: * ADOX/ADCX for arbitrary precision integer operations"
02:44:10 <Bike> Jafet: yeah that looked neat
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02:44:43 <Jafet> Yeah umm let's speed up addition??
02:44:53 <Fiora> Jafet: it's a flag problem
02:45:14 <madbr> flags registers kinda suck tbh
02:45:16 <Jafet> Doesn't intel already have fused multiply-add
02:45:22 <Fiora> flag dependencies basically forced really latency-bottlenecked situations
02:45:30 <Bike> madbr: what would you prefer?
02:45:34 <Fiora> because the instructino you want to do overwrites the flag you needed
02:45:45 <madbr> bike: no flag registers
02:45:49 <Fiora> so I think the BMI2 instructions (the mulx, shlx, adcx, etc) are to avoid that
02:46:12 <Fiora> I think ARM lets you choose whether or not to set the flags register with certain instructions, which also avoids most of the problem?
02:46:17 <Jafet> Ok not on integers
02:46:22 <madbr> like a cmp+branch instruction for instance
02:46:33 <Bike> madbr: so like you just have je x,y,address instead?
02:46:50 <Fiora> the flags here are for carry and stuff though :<
02:47:15 <Fiora> I don't think there's a very pretty way to multiply/add big numbers without flaggy-like things
02:47:27 <Fiora> for the carry bits
02:47:44 <Bike> well carry lookahead seems kind of insane anyway
02:47:59 <madbr> fiora: you can compare the result of the addition with the previous value (unsigned)
02:48:12 <madbr> if the result is smaller, there has been an overflow
02:48:28 <Bike> you could dump into double the word size, like MIPS in HI and LO
02:48:29 <Fiora> that's probably going to be a lot of extra instructions though...
02:48:41 <Bike> and then just compare HI with zero
02:48:46 <madbr> fiora: well, it's one extra jump compared to adc
02:48:54 <Fiora> oh geez don't make it a jump
02:49:06 <Fiora> that jump would be completely unpredictable ^^;
02:49:20 <Fiora> since carry bits are probably pretty random
02:49:41 <madbr> I think arm64 did it with a conditional increment/add of some kind
02:50:00 <Fiora> I don't think arm has the issue at all though, because it has flag-setting and non-flag-setting versions of instructions
02:50:05 <Fiora> so it doesn't run into the same problem x86 has?
02:50:06 <Bike> imo we just need a processor without arithmetic
02:50:11 <Bike> obviously it's impossible to do right
02:50:25 <Fiora> Bike: so i finally have an excuse to link you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_triggered_architecture
02:50:37 <Fiora> it's an OISC with nothing but moves
02:50:38 <Bike> are those still used at all?
02:50:57 <Bike> i've never really thought it counted as oisc
02:51:11 <madbr> inc_if_smaller rh, rl, al
02:51:40 <Jafet> Bike: an instruction can do anything
02:51:42 <madbr> ok that's one instruction longer than with adc
02:52:39 <Fiora> probably on ARM it'd be something like, add, add, cmp, conditional inc?
02:52:41 <Bike> Jafet: machine where the one instruction runs the accumulator register as a turing machine
02:52:42 <madbr> also if you add a SIMD unit later on, that's usually a good place to do 64bit math
02:52:51 <madbr> fiora: arm has adc
02:53:01 <Fiora> oh! so just, adds + adc?
02:53:22 <madbr> or you can do it in SIMD/NEON
02:53:32 <Fiora> does neon have 64-bit math like that?
02:53:33 <madbr> in which case you can do it on 2 ops at the same time
02:53:50 <Jafet> Bike: ok but you need to make the register width large enough to fit a UTM
02:53:54 <madbr> fiora: yeah, I'm not sure what use it has but yeah it has that
02:54:08 <Bike> Jafet: 64 bits are enough for anybody.
02:54:13 <Fiora> so far I think NEON only has 64-bit execution units though so it might not be faster :<
02:54:14 <Jafet> (This makes the proof of turing completeness easier)
02:54:18 <Bike> That's like, at least a billion machines.
02:54:33 <madbr> fiora: actually it depends on the instructions
02:54:56 <madbr> fiora: on some instructions 128-bit isn't faster (floating point in particular)
02:55:11 <Fiora> I remember hearing even a15 still had 64-bit units but I might be totally wrong since I don't really know much about this
02:55:22 <madbr> fiora: but I'm pretty sure integer addition is 128bit so you can do it in "1 cycle"
02:55:33 <Fiora> it doesn't have a 64-bit multiply it looks like :/
02:55:48 <madbr> ha no multiply is faster if you use smaller ops
02:55:57 <Fiora> I meant, no 64-bit datatype
02:56:08 <madbr> but on the a8 you want to do everything in 16 bits
02:56:09 <zzo38> Do you know if FPGA can be used with through-hole?
02:56:21 <madbr> fiora: a multiplier that large would probably never be fast
02:57:01 <Fiora> I think the ivy bridge 64x64->128 multiplier takes 3 cycles?
02:57:18 <madbr> even the timings for 32x32 multiplication would be kinda blah
02:57:27 * Bike imagines a processor with Knuth automata to make multiplication O(1)
02:57:32 <Fiora> yeah, 1 cycle throughput
02:57:43 <madbr> fiora : that sounds way too low
02:58:03 <madbr> fiora : actually on recent processors, wide multiplications tend to have long latencies
02:58:17 <Fiora> I have no idea how they got it so fast
02:58:34 <madbr> due to the short pipelines and ultra short propagation delays
02:58:56 <madbr> haven't seen 2 cycle latency addition yet but I bet they'll eventually do that
02:59:16 <Fiora> The bulldozer is 6 cycle latency, 4 cycle inverse throughput for the same, I think, if I'm reading this right
02:59:32 <madbr> 64x64 multiply isn't very useful
02:59:52 <Fiora> I think it's useful for arbitrary precision multiplies?
03:00:00 <zzo38> Do you know if FPGA programming software will run on a VM image which has CentOS?
03:00:13 <Fiora> huh. the K10 was 4/2, but the high 64 bits had an extra cycle of latency
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03:01:15 <madbr> fiora : I don't think arbitrary precision code is very useful
03:01:23 <Fiora> I thought that was the topic though... :<
03:01:29 <Fiora> since that's what the adox/adcx were for or something
03:01:39 <madbr> maybe in cryptography and mathematics applications
03:02:01 <madbr> but other than that, 32bits solves like everything
03:02:11 <madbr> except >4gb memory
03:02:32 <Jafet> Multiplication is asymptotically log(n)
03:02:48 <Bike> schonhage-strassen in hardware let's do it
03:03:01 <Jafet> You just need to use about n^2 of circuit area or something
03:03:39 <madbr> I'd rather have them use more circuit area for 32bit float :D
03:04:52 <Jafet> 32bit float isn't very useful
03:05:33 <madbr> audio processing these days is essentially a mountain of 32bit float dude
03:05:41 * Fiora wants more circuit area for 16-bit int? <.<
03:05:54 <Bike> what do you use 16 bit int for
03:05:54 <madbr> the rest of the pipeline is only there for feeding in 32bit floats
03:06:23 <Fiora> Bike: it's like, a really good size for stuff where you don't need much range or precision
03:06:34 <madbr> same for 3d games, they're a mountain of floats
03:06:49 <madbr> fiora: why not just use 32bit registers for the 16bit ints?
03:07:33 <Jafet> Why not use 64bit floats for the 32bit floats
03:08:01 <madbr> jafet : that's what the fpu does (except using 80 bits)
03:08:45 <Fiora> I think that's only x87...
03:09:18 <madbr> 16 bit packed int makes sense for SIMD units yeah
03:09:33 <madbr> and video game audio in particular
03:10:03 <Bike> wow i wonder what madbr's day job is
03:10:05 <Fiora> it's super useful for image stuff, like for resizing an image with 8-bit pixels, 16-bit intermediates are sorta good enough
03:11:44 <Fiora> probably something incredibly cool <.<
03:12:04 <Bike> whenever i think of audio processing i just think of analog ones though, which is silly
03:12:41 <madbr> you mean like analog opamp based amplifiers?
03:13:01 <Jafet> That's okay, everyone knows analog sounds better
03:13:12 <Bike> probably because the only digital audio things i've fucked with consciously imitated synthesizer programming
03:13:33 <madbr> jafet : ahahahahahah
03:13:51 <Bike> you know madbr i think jafet might be interested in your goat
03:15:47 <madbr> but yeah tbh the basic audio processing is essentially emulating a digital sampler
03:16:09 <madbr> it's like the perfect thing for generating audio off a CPU
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04:13:44 <zzo38> How difficult is it to port SDL to other computers?
04:15:39 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: Reconnecting).
04:15:43 <zzo38> Furthermore, how do you deal with it if some of the keys have symbols that are not available in Unicode?
04:15:43 <zzo38> Or even control keys that are not available in SDL?
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05:26:49 <Sgeo> Dear Chrome. When I google LLAP, I do not expect you to autocomplete it to llapingachos
05:27:08 <Sgeo> Worst part is it didn't offer a link for what I originally typed
05:27:27 <Sgeo> Because the autocompletion was in the address bar, not Google's decision after seeing the original
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05:40:53 <zzo38> Is it possible to change the settings to fix all of those things?
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06:22:55 <kmc> why can't i find goddamn mersenne twister test vectors
06:26:14 <zzo38> Why do you need a mersenne twister test vectors?
06:26:22 <zzo38> Maybe Wikipedia has some?
06:30:22 <kmc> because i have implemented mersenne twister and want to make sure i've done so correctly
06:30:46 <kmc> i have found some files on the website, now to verify that they implement the version of the algorithm that i implemented
06:56:47 <elliott> what'd you implement it for
06:57:05 <Bike> Because fuck that law of cryptography, man.
06:57:32 <Bike> The one that says you shouldn't implement crypto things yourself because you'll fuck it up.
06:57:35 <shachaf> I don't think the law applies when you're trying to break other people's bad cryptography.
06:57:51 <Bike> Ooh is that what kmc's doing?
06:59:05 <Bike> I guess it would fit with his usual predelictions.
06:59:21 <Bike> Either that or maybe he just wanted to Mersenne it up. Nuthin wrong with that.
06:59:44 <shachaf> Is there any situation wher eyou want to use a mersenne twister in cryptography, anyway?
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07:04:17 <elliott> kind of hate the mythology around crypto
07:04:30 <elliott> though hate people who do their own crypto and refuse to admit they don't know enough to more
07:04:55 <Bike> Don't enough to more?
07:09:05 <elliott> of course the lisper can't figure out where the parens go
07:09:12 <elliott> (imagine I spat after saying "lisper". possibly before as well)
07:09:38 <Bike> I seriously can't understand you though.
07:10:06 <Bike> Oh, wait. "Though, hate people who do their own crypto (and refuse to admit they don't know enough to) more"
07:17:48 <shachaf> wait wait wait Bike is a lisper?
07:18:05 <Bike> yeah, elliott already drowned me in his saliva, so now I'm a ghost.
07:18:39 <Bike> It happens when your trachea is interrupted for long periods. Sorry?
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08:40:16 <zzo38> What is the resonant frequency of a magic spell to make anti-magic field in Dungeons&Dragons game?
08:41:02 <kmc> Bike: i'm doing the puzzles where you're told to implement bad crypto and then break it
08:41:24 <kmc> if you want to do them, email sean@matasano.com
08:41:39 <kmc> there's not, like, a web page about it or anything
08:41:51 <kmc> you email him and he gives you some crypto puzzles
08:41:58 <Bike> yeah, i saw earlier.
08:42:46 <elliott> does everyone get the same ones
08:42:58 <kmc> TIL that you can reconstruct the internal state of a mersenne twister from 634 consecutive outputs
08:43:06 <Bike> That's the last puzzle, elliott.
08:43:10 <kmc> and thus predict every output it's going to give after that
08:43:14 <kmc> elliott: i think so, don't really know
08:43:40 <Bike> kmc: Anything you can do with nonconsecutive (if you don't know how many times it fired between your samples)?
08:44:11 <shachaf> kmc: Oh, I'd heard that before.
08:44:14 <kmc> well you can guess how many times
08:44:25 <Fiora> kmc: that's because it's not a secure PRNG, right?
08:44:25 <kmc> there probably are fancy things you can do as well
08:44:27 <kmc> but i don't know them
08:44:30 * shachaf should finish the last one of this set...
08:44:39 <Bike> Fiora: yeah it doesn't have a great distribution either iirc
08:44:40 <kmc> Fiora: i would put the causality the other direction but yes
08:44:57 <shachaf> Well, if the design goal had been to make it a secure PRNG, then it wouldn't have this property.
08:45:11 <shachaf> Causality is a lie anyway.
08:45:32 <Bike> if then -> causality, nice
08:45:35 <shachaf> Do you know things about modal logic?
08:45:48 <kmc> yeah, the authors are quite clear on the fact that it shouldn't be used for crypto as-is
08:45:51 <kmc> but people do it
08:46:09 <kmc> or rather, people use rand() for crypto and don't know or care what algo it is, and it's often MT
08:46:10 <Fiora> aren't there simpler secure PRNGs?
08:46:25 <Bike> reminds me of one of knuth's exercises
08:46:25 <Fiora> that makes sense, just blindly using rand()
08:46:42 <Bike> which was just "look up how your installation's supposed CSPRNG and be horrified"
08:47:21 <Bike> Also: I am aware that modal logic exists.
08:47:22 <Fiora> would that be /dev/urandom?
08:47:47 <kmc> shachaf: i know a small bit about linear temporal logic
08:48:06 <shachaf> I went to a talk about model-checking once!
08:48:36 <shachaf> I learned a little bit about LTL and that other one.
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08:56:47 <kmc> what's CTL for
09:04:28 <kmc> i'm not sure what security properties exactly would be meant by "secure PRNG"
09:04:46 <kmc> but maybe it would be the same thing as a stream cipher
09:05:29 <kmc> got to sleep though, ttyl all
09:05:44 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptographically_secure_pseudorandom_number_generator ?
09:06:19 <Bike> how about "can't use it as part of an attack" as a property :)
09:07:57 <Bike> or you could just use an lcg. live fast die hard
09:08:38 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lcg_3d.gif ~
09:12:28 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RANDU "It is widely considered to be one of the most ill-conceived random number generators designed. "
09:12:52 <Bike> knuth's intro in taocp was funny
09:13:07 <Bike> he started off with a generator that consisted of him throwing arbitrarily picked operations together, as an undergrad
09:13:10 <Bike> "that's random right"
09:15:18 <Fiora> I like that subtlety that "rand()%1000" is not actually an unbiased way to pick a number in [0,1000)
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09:15:43 <Bike> "We guarantee that each number is random individually, but we don't guarantee that more than one of them is random."
09:16:08 <Bike> fiora, well, clearly you should rejigger your application to make that 1024!
09:16:58 <shachaf> Bike's solution sounds good to me.
09:17:05 <Fiora> the other day I was using rand() to do a memory timing benchmark thing (like, relaly simple, just randomly accessing elements in a giant array and timing each one)
09:17:08 <Bike> or just alter rand_max to be a power of 1000
09:17:20 <shachaf> Alternative: Generate a random number < 1000000, and then take that % 1000
09:17:36 <Fiora> I ran it on the hardware I was testing and it looked right, but then I ran it on my computer and it didn't seem to ever hit RAM
09:17:51 <Fiora> on the thing I was testing, RAND_MAX was INT_MAX or so
09:17:55 <Fiora> and on my computer it was 65535 >.>
09:18:08 <shachaf> Bike: How do you talk about unions categorically?
09:18:37 <Bike> union is a morphism on Set, I suppose?
09:19:56 <shachaf> When you talk about cartesian products, you say that for any two objects A and B there's an object AxB such that blah blah.
09:20:43 <Bike> Is that categorical?
09:21:00 <Bike> sounds pretty standard, in that i can fill in the "blah blah"
09:21:02 <shachaf> Most of CT sounds that way.
09:21:12 <Bike> if it was category theory i wouldn't understand it, you see.
09:21:45 <zzo38> Well, they have certain properties such as associativity.
09:21:57 <shachaf> Well, the definition looks like this:
09:22:20 <shachaf> http://thefirstscience.org/images/Figure%20B4%20Arrow%20Theoreci%20Represnation%20of%20Product.png
09:22:30 <Bike> Now we're talkin'.
09:22:44 <shachaf> In particular the diagram on the right.
09:23:22 <shachaf> Given two sets, A and B, you have a product (AxB,pi_1 : AxB -> A,pi_2 : AxB -> B)
09:23:34 <shachaf> I.e. the object, and an arrow from the object to each of A and B
09:24:15 <shachaf> There are lots of things that behave that way, though.
09:24:15 <Bike> is this a pedagogy thing, is that why you're doing this
09:24:28 <shachaf> You don't want to be pedagogued?
09:24:39 <elliott> Bike: shachaf just asks people questions and then fills in all the details until they know as much as him, at which point they are obligated to figure out the answer.
09:24:47 <elliott> have fun learning about category theory
09:24:50 <Bike> well, i do, i'd jst appreciate some warning, like elliott just gave.
09:25:03 <shachaf> elliott: Hey, you do it too!
09:25:05 <Bike> Anyway, yes, coproduct, generalized abstract nonsense as they say.
09:25:07 <shachaf> I learned about all this nonsense because of you.
09:25:18 <Bike> And you call the pies projections.
09:25:53 <elliott> I think Bike is optimally qualified here.
09:25:57 <shachaf> elliott: Actually what you do is ask a question and then keep bugging me about it until I know all the details.
09:26:08 <elliott> my approach is more effective I think
09:26:10 <Bike> But I'm such a troglodyte I think of this in such horrible ways as tagged unions.
09:26:27 <shachaf> Bike: Nothing wrong with that?
09:26:37 <Bike> P. sure everything I think is wrong.
09:26:53 <shachaf> What do you think of monoids?
09:27:36 <shachaf> (psst the correct answer is easy.)
09:28:05 <shachaf> Bike: What do you think of monoids?
09:28:21 <Bike> You already asked that.
09:28:45 <shachaf> Sure, but now you know the answer.
09:29:03 <shachaf> I'll take it as "Bike doesn't want to learn about products".
09:29:10 <shachaf> Fiora wnats to learn about products?
09:30:43 <Bike> It's just, it's time I should be sleeping, I'm supposed to be reading a paper about throwing things, and then suddenly question phrased in such a way that I can't tell if I'm supposed to actually explain it to someone who doesn't know.
09:30:59 <shachaf> Well, I actually have no idea.
09:31:19 <Bike> About unions? I was guessing that they're not that useful to category theory really
09:32:26 <shachaf> I was thinking maybe not but surely there's a way to talk about them somehow?
09:33:33 <Bike> that's why I guessed you wanted to talk about set unions in a category theory way, rather than try to generalize set unions appropriately as that didn't seem possible
09:35:30 <shachaf> Bike: Oh, is it just equalizers and coequalizers or something?
09:36:05 <monqy> did somebody say category theory
09:36:56 <shachaf> no you can go back to sleep
09:37:16 <shachaf> monqy: So how do you talk about unions in a categorical way?
09:38:30 <monqy> something about the colimit of some functor omega->Set?????????
09:38:59 <monqy> i guess thats a union of infinite inclusions tho hm
09:39:08 <monqy> yeah you know the ordinal number!!!!
09:39:22 <monqy> we pretend it's a category by writing out all the smaller ordinals and connecting them with arrows
09:42:58 <shachaf> Oh, it is just a coëqualizer.
09:44:40 <monqy> remember how i said i don't know ct yet!!!!
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09:45:23 <Bike> it's looking increasingly less likely that category theory is a thing that is knowable
09:45:35 <shachaf> You said you would read Mac Lane?
09:45:40 <monqy> according to ncatlab you want a "coherent category", whatever that is
09:45:46 <shachaf> monqy: Also what's with all the question marks and exclamation marks and things?
09:45:55 <Bike> an unreachable platonic ideal of unreachable platonic ideals
09:46:07 <monqy> im slowly reading mac lane whenever im waiting for things to happen
09:46:17 <monqy> im hoping it seeps in before i forget it
09:46:35 <shachaf> Bike: A terminal object in the category of platonic ideals?
09:46:38 <monqy> today i learned all about colimits and limits
09:46:41 <Bike> "Unions of completely arbitrary sets make sense only in material set theory, where their existence is guaranteed by the axiom of union. In structural set theory, unions of arbitrary sets can generally be replaced by disjoint unions." yeah that would make sense
09:46:42 <shachaf> Or maybe in the category of cones or something.
09:46:57 <shachaf> monqy: Those are pretty great, right?
09:47:23 <Bike> too bad structuralist set theory has nothing to do with post-structuralism
09:47:39 <Bike> if only we had a lacan for category theory
09:48:50 <monqy> anyway unions are dumb and i'll concern myself no further with them
09:49:07 <shachaf> The pullback of A -> AunionB <- B is AintersectB?
09:49:18 <shachaf> With the obvious functions.
09:49:33 <shachaf> And the pushout of A <- AintersectB -> B is AunionB?
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09:53:14 <shachaf> monqy: Categories are the dumb one.
09:53:56 <monqy> Q.when did you go off the deep end
09:54:07 <monqy> “metaphorically speaking„
09:54:49 <shachaf> monqy: Which end is the deep one?
09:55:03 <shachaf> monqy: Category theory is so pointless even mathematicians don't like it.
09:55:39 <elliott> did you know the wiles proof of FLT involvted categories???? i learned this yeterday on wikipedaije
09:55:53 <shachaf> Involuted categories? That soudns scary.
09:56:53 <shachaf> Categories: Galois theoryFermat's last theorem
09:59:57 <shachaf> monqy: should i read _master and margarita_
10:02:05 <shachaf> i thought maybe you heard of it
10:03:20 <monqy> i hear it's a fantastic farce mysticism romance satire
10:04:52 <shachaf> well for the purpose of this channel
10:06:01 <shachaf> are you saying you aren't even russian………
10:07:24 <monqy> p.s. what was that ctcp about
10:09:12 <monqy> alt. what's this russian stuff about. why would i be russian.
10:09:21 <shachaf> because then you would know about this book
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10:11:39 <shachaf> also lots of people are russian?
10:12:26 <monqy> though i also hear lots of people aren't russian
10:12:31 <monqy> can you believe it
10:14:20 <shachaf> monqy: have you considered just becoming russian
10:16:27 <monqy> i don't think it's so simple
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10:26:30 <mroman_> https://code.google.com/p/zopfli/
10:27:00 <zzo38> I don't like the types in C to have default signed/unsigned, and I think it would be better that if it is not specified, that each operation might be signed or unsigned depending on the computer and on the optimization.
10:27:08 <mroman_> How hard can it be to type umlauts.
10:28:00 <zzo38> It depends on your computer.
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12:23:57 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
12:24:39 <shachaf> I guess you're not allowed to receive hugs.
12:24:48 <HackEgo> nooga hate OS X. NOOGA SMASH.
12:24:57 <HackEgo> noohga hahte OhS X. NOOhGA SMAhSH.
12:25:01 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | tr A-Z a-z | sed "s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic"; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1"; \ else echo "$1? ¯\(°_o)/¯"; exit 1;
12:25:56 <olsner> `learn nooga hate OS X. NOOGA SMASH. Hug not allowed.
12:26:22 <HackEgo> shachahf sprø sohm selleri and cosplayhs Nepeta Leijohn ohn weekends.
12:28:45 <olsner> apparently sprø som selleri is a book about a psychologist making jokes (or whatever tuller means): http://www.pax.no/index.php?ID=Bok&counter=1103
12:29:17 <shachaf> @ask oerjan what is sprø som selleri
12:32:07 <olsner> oh, part of the book deals with archaic psychiatric treatments, like veal blood transfusions and scabies inplantation
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12:33:41 <olsner> oh, and centrifugueing or however you say that (centrifusion?)
12:37:45 <elliott> Anomaly: Uncaught exception Invalid_argument("List.combine"). Please report.
12:42:02 <elliott> Error: Found a matching with no clauses on a term unknown to have an empty
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13:54:00 <Sgeo> "In fact, when compared to Garamond, which wasnt originally designed for the screen, Comic Sans fares quite well in terms of readability."
13:54:06 <Sgeo> (Without anti-aliasing)
13:54:10 <Sgeo> http://kadavy.net/blog/posts/why-you-hate-comic-sans/
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14:03:12 <Phantom_Hoover> "Without ant-aliasing, fonts look jagged as if they were made of LEGOS."
14:15:41 <Lumpio-> That's just silly, you can do anti-aliasing with legos
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14:37:17 <Sgeo> I'm going to be AFK most of the day.
14:37:22 <Sgeo> Heading to a friend's house.
14:47:41 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, have a Worlds mirror http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/2478/67591116.png
14:48:36 <Sgeo> Apparently Phantom_Hoover is scared of mirrors.
14:49:46 <Lumpio-> This... reminds me of Second Life
14:49:59 <Sgeo> Second Life doesn't have mirrors :(
14:50:06 <Lumpio-> "Club" at the bottom right is for wild deviant sex
14:50:15 <Lumpio-> And "Animal House" is also for that, except it's furries
14:50:50 <Sgeo> Actually, Worlds mirrors are portals that have horizonal flipped.
14:50:54 <Lumpio-> Those things are always weird
14:51:07 <Sgeo> Worlds has portals. This is an awesome thing.
14:51:35 <Lumpio-> Speaking of which I was supposed to do portal rendering in webgl
14:51:57 <Lumpio-> But I got bored when I couldn't find any good scenes to try it on. You sort of need an interesting scene with enough details and texturing to make it look interesting.
14:52:01 <Lumpio-> And I suck at 3D modeling badly.
14:52:04 <Sgeo> Also a thin transparent wall in front to prevent people from accidentally walking into the mirror and ending up upside-down.
14:52:13 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, you may now resume being terrified of Worlds mirrors.
14:53:02 <Phantom_Hoover> something that irks me: i'm not sure all those impossible geometries you can build with portals are actually non-euclidean like everyone says
14:55:24 <Sgeo> Here's a thing with a better body modification panel: http://25.media.tumblr.com/ea771a7c7328a138ded50bdca0fadd89/tumblr_miwphxRb4L1ruytnho1_1280.png
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14:55:41 <Lumpio-> How do you define euclidean geometry again
14:55:52 <Lumpio-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclidean_geometry#Axioms anything that satisfies these?
14:56:35 <Sgeo> The thing that's on the wall that you can partially see in the mirror reads
14:56:43 <Sgeo> "The Gallery of Metamorphics"
14:58:26 <Lumpio-> http://virkkunen.net/b/portals.png well here's a thing that doesn't satisfy the "parallel postulate"
14:58:49 <Lumpio-> Those two black lines should meet each other because they're not parallel, yet they never do due to those two portals.
15:00:41 <Sgeo> If you're in a 3d world and can see yourself because of portals, is the world still possibly Euclidean, or would it violate a postulate
15:01:08 <Sgeo> There's a maze like that below Animal House
15:01:14 <Phantom_Hoover> <Lumpio-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclidean_geometry#Axioms anything that satisfies these?
15:01:28 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah, but it gets more complicated once you start working with arbitrary spaces
15:01:39 <Lumpio-> Sgeo: Can you go into a portal from the back? And then emerge from the back of the other portal?
15:01:59 <Lumpio-> Phantom_Hoover: Well the first axiom is pretty solid in any dimension right?
15:02:07 <Lumpio-> The ability to draw a straight line from any point to any point
15:02:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Lumpio-, the only thing you ever really care about is the parallel postulate
15:02:24 <Sgeo> Lumpio-, no, although you can have back-to-back portals that work like that, I think
15:03:11 <Lumpio-> Anyways we'd have to define what happens when an infinite ray hits the back of a portal then
15:03:26 <Phantom_Hoover> but there's also more complicated notions of 'locally euclidean' spaces and such
15:03:56 <Lumpio-> If it goes through and emerges from the back of the other portal, or magically "stops" there, in both cases you can violate the first axiom
15:04:02 <Lumpio-> i.e. the ability to draw a straight line between two points
15:04:22 <Phantom_Hoover> and essentially in that diagram you drew, at almost all points you can take a set around them where geometry is euclidean
15:05:07 <Lumpio-> Well you didn't say locally euclidean
15:05:31 <Lumpio-> If we just take any subspace that doesn't include the portals then obviously it's euclidean because that's how we defined (assumed?) it to be when not dealing with portals
15:05:44 <Sgeo> Lumpio-, lines that enter the back of a portal leave at the same portal, they ignore the portal
15:05:49 <Sgeo> Portals in Worlds are one-sided
15:06:09 <Sgeo> As though it wasn't there
15:08:05 <Lumpio-> http://virkkunen.net/b/portals2.png here
15:08:23 <Lumpio-> You can see your back via the portals
15:08:29 <Lumpio-> Now try to draw a straight line from A to B
15:09:07 <Sgeo> I can draw a line from B to A but not A to B.... how does that even make sense.
15:09:26 <Sgeo> I think directionaless of portals confuses the lack of direction of lines
15:10:04 <Lumpio-> I'm pretty sure Euclid would be turning in his grave if we told him that a space where A to B is not the same as B to A is Euclidean
15:10:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, i think essentially what you have done is made it stop being a metric space
15:10:33 <Lumpio-> But of course you can construct something that's Euclidean enough even with portals
15:10:35 <Lumpio-> http://virkkunen.net/b/portals3.png
15:10:47 <Lumpio-> There. The most useless portal ever.
15:11:11 <Lumpio-> Disclaimer for all above: I don't know math terminology properly
15:12:26 <Phantom_Hoover> a metric space is just one with a sufficiently sensible notion of distance between two points
15:12:26 <Sgeo> I do think in most Worlds rooms that portals are set against walls
15:12:44 <Phantom_Hoover> one of the conditions of sensibility is that d(a,b) = d(b,a)
15:13:44 <Sgeo> In that maze, a one-way hallway wouldn't be made with the one-directionality of portals
15:14:03 <Sgeo> You'd hook up portal A in room A to portal B in room B, but portal B in room B would not be hooked up to portal A
15:15:00 <Phantom_Hoover> what do you see if you walk through a portal backwards
15:15:19 <Sgeo> You go to where that portal is hooked up to
15:15:24 <Sgeo> Just walking backwards into it
15:15:54 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, you should try one of the spy rooms in Worlds
15:16:12 <Sgeo> They're worlds that are like the normal worlds, except a spy room where you can see people and they can't see you
15:16:25 <Sgeo> Walk into the regular area and you won't be able to get back into the spy room
15:17:39 <Sgeo> (without teleporting back in, I mean)
15:17:50 <Sgeo> I should see if Worlds works on WINE
15:17:58 <Sgeo> But not today. I have a friend to visit.
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18:12:00 <madbr> anyone here does verilog?
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18:45:05 <kmc> very high drug lover
18:45:45 <kmc> all i know about verilog / vhdl is the extreme level of copy-pasta
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18:46:20 <madbr> playing around with a cpu design
18:47:18 <Fiora> I did a tiny bit of verilog but that was the class I dropped
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18:48:17 <madbr> trying to do something where a C compiler could vectorize more or less automatically
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18:51:58 <madbr> and the concept I have is what I'd call "staggered SIMD"
18:52:20 <madbr> which is somewhere between standard SIMD, superscalar and out of order...
18:53:02 <madbr> essentially instead of doing every SIMD slice operation on the same cycle, the first slice is done on cycle 1, second slice on cycle 2, etc...
18:53:15 <madbr> so that you can do stuff like real SIMD memory loads
18:53:37 <madbr> (since you do the load in unit 1 on first cycle, unit 2 on second cycle, etc...)
18:53:51 <madbr> also there are special feedback registers
18:53:55 <Fiora> isn't that like, the same thing as a pipelined CPU?
18:54:16 <madbr> yeah but it's pipelining different iterations of the same routine
18:54:37 <madbr> unit 1 is running iteration 1, unit 2 is running iteration 2...
18:54:41 <Fiora> I thought CPUs already do that...
18:55:04 <madbr> so actually it's like you're going though your loop 4 or 8 times at the same time
18:55:16 <Fiora> like the ARM instruction "load multiple" loads a bunch of registers (2 per cycle) from memory, and every cycle, another 2 are available for use
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18:55:38 <madbr> fiora: yeah that's an example
18:56:46 <madbr> you'd have to space your memory load instructions tho
18:57:02 <Fiora> I don't think that does anything except save code size though...?
18:57:06 <madbr> suppose you're running 5 units at the same time
18:57:19 <madbr> [mem op] [alu] [alu] [alu] [alu] [mem op] [alu] [alu] [alu] [alu] [mem op] [alu] [alu] [alu] [alu] ...
18:58:16 <Fiora> I thought you already have to do that on in-order CPUs with multi-issue...
18:58:34 <madbr> they do that yeah but it's not the same kind of multi-issue
18:58:59 * Fiora doesn't understand the idea then, sorry
18:59:06 <madbr> OOO cpus fill the pipelines with different alu ops that are near by
18:59:25 <madbr> suppose you have a routine that's
18:59:58 <Fiora> I meant non-OOE things
19:00:13 <Fiora> like the atom has dual-issue but no OOE, so you have to write instructions in a way that they can pair
19:01:09 <madbr> jge r8, r9, loopend
19:01:24 <madbr> and you're using 4 units
19:01:46 <madbr> first cycle, units 2..4 are doing nops
19:01:57 <madbr> first unit does load r1, r8
19:02:08 <Fiora> yeah, that looks just like a normal pipelined CPU... I'm confused
19:02:24 <madbr> rirst unit does add r1, #14
19:02:38 <madbr> second unit does load r1, r8
19:02:52 <Fiora> but load r1, r8 has already been done...
19:03:07 <madbr> yeah but they're different copies of r1, r8
19:03:28 <Fiora> so like, this is a special case in which you have a bunch of loop iterations which are completely independent?
19:03:29 <madbr> essentially the second unit is already starting the second iteration of the loop
19:03:41 <Fiora> I think OOE already does that
19:03:56 <Fiora> like, modern CPUs with big reorder buffers can be running 15 iterations of a loop at a time
19:04:06 <madbr> OOE doesn't do that, it reorders nearby instructions
19:04:15 <Fiora> um... that's... not quite what it does...
19:04:34 <Fiora> it keeps dispatching instructions until one of the queues fills, preventing it from doing so, I think
19:04:41 <madbr> like, on a p2, eventually it's running multiple iterations at the same time yes
19:04:49 <madbr> it does it locally really
19:04:51 <Fiora> so like in one bit of code I wrote I have a loop that does two loads, an average, and a store
19:05:02 <Fiora> this loop manages to fill the entire load queue, so that's where it stops issuing
19:05:04 <madbr> like, if you had a 300 instruction routine
19:05:11 <madbr> your iterations wouldn't overlap
19:05:56 <Fiora> but if it had 300 instructions it could probably do something else in those 300 instructions...
19:06:15 <Fiora> I mean, if the iterations are independent, you can just write the code a bit differently to let OOE do things better? :<
19:06:36 <madbr> unrolling isn't very beneficial in OOO
19:06:58 <Fiora> it helps if the loop is super gigantic and has a long dependency chain and the OOE buffer doesn't reach into the next iteration, I think?
19:06:59 <madbr> SIMD (SSE, MMX, NEON, Altivec) kinda helps
19:07:05 <Fiora> like your 300 example...
19:07:21 <madbr> but your routine has to be very paralellizable and most of the time the compiler can't guess I think
19:07:37 <Fiora> soooo write the simd yourself silly :P
19:07:50 <madbr> on p2 unrolling only saves like the cmp and jmp
19:08:09 <Fiora> ... but unrolling is useful if it lets the execution unit get more parallelism...
19:08:31 <madbr> but it's really only worth it if your loop is really small
19:08:37 <madbr> like 8 instructions or less
19:08:56 <Fiora> but if it's like 8 instructions or less OOE can look ahead to the next iteration just fine o_O
19:09:01 <Fiora> so you don't need to unroll...
19:09:44 <madbr> no it's like the other way around
19:09:59 <madbr> in the 300 example you're less likely to get dependency chains
19:10:30 <Fiora> but.... you just said the iterations were independent...
19:11:05 <madbr> like, you'll have result to result dependency chains within the routine but in fact both the compiler and the CPU can analyze that stuff and reorder everything if there aren't too many memory accesses
19:11:54 <madbr> in a 8 instruction loop your writes and reads will be very close together and it will probably be hard to "prove" that the reads don't depend on the writes
19:12:21 <madbr> like you didn't overlap the read and write buffer addresses on purpose
19:12:44 <Fiora> the cpu does speculative loads and stores though
19:12:51 <Fiora> and if it turns out that things did overlap it will re-issue them
19:13:13 <madbr> I'd like to see how they do that :D
19:13:21 <madbr> afaik it's freakishly complex
19:13:34 <Phantom_Hoover> half an hour of relatively on-topic discussion and nobody's mentioned turing even once
19:13:35 <Taneb> What's the best way to bring a C program to a screaming halt
19:13:49 <Bike> turn off the computer
19:13:51 <Fiora> they do it just by issuing them in advance and then going and redoing it if they were wrong XD
19:14:02 <madbr> phantom : that's what you're trying to avoid
19:14:20 <madbr> turing is when your result influence each other tightly and you can do everything
19:14:25 <Fiora> not that I know, like, hardware details but
19:14:45 <Bike> these machines are only pushdown automata, Phantom_Hoover `-`
19:14:47 <madbr> but it breaks all optimizations since you can't reorder everything and everything has effects on everything else :D
19:15:26 <madbr> jumps and memory accesses are hell
19:15:52 <Fiora> yay the benchmark worked
19:15:53 <Fiora> for( int i = 0; i < 128; i++ )
19:15:53 <Fiora> sum += i * i * i * i * i * i;
19:16:11 <Fiora> this loop takes 770 cycles on my machine, so it's doing 1 multiply every cycle
19:16:15 <madbr> they prevent the C++ optimizer from doing its job
19:16:17 <Fiora> but each iteration is completely latency bound
19:16:26 <Fiora> so it has to be looking ahead at least 6 iterations in order to get that.
19:16:38 <Fiora> erm, at least 3 iterations, since imul is latency 3
19:17:08 <madbr> doesn't have memory loads inside the loop so the compiler can deal with it :D
19:17:18 <Fiora> okay, let's test that then :3
19:17:40 <madbr> you can save a mul actually
19:17:59 <madbr> for(int i=0; i<128; i++)
19:18:27 <Fiora> Yeah, I wasn't trying to optimize it XD
19:18:43 <madbr> I think gcc can do that optim but not other compilers actually
19:18:49 <Bike> madbr: er don't you need to multiply by temp
19:19:05 <madbr> bike: errr, yeah, sorry there
19:19:08 <Fiora> my gcc does a chain of 5 imuls
19:19:08 <Bike> oh, duh yeah, power decomposition
19:19:13 <Fiora> though it's an older one
19:19:27 <Bike> my personal favorite possibly-NP-complete-but-who-knows problem
19:19:28 <Fiora> okies! so, second test:
19:19:30 <Fiora> for( int i = 0; i < 128; i++ )
19:19:30 <Fiora> int in = input[i];
19:19:30 <Fiora> output[i] = in*in*in*in*in*in;
19:19:37 <Fiora> this takes 754 cycles.
19:19:54 <Fiora> if it was totally latency bound it'd take at least 5*3*128 cycles.
19:20:16 <madbr> { int i2 = i*i; int i4 = i2*i2; sum += i4*i2; }
19:20:21 <Fiora> hmm. lemme try it with random memory accesses >:3
19:21:02 <Bike> madbr: quick what's the optimal chain for i^15
19:21:02 <madbr> fiora : I think it's because the compiler can guess that input and output don't alias yes
19:21:42 <Fiora> the compiler doesn't unroll the loop though...
19:21:57 <madbr> fiora: might not be worth it
19:21:59 <Fiora> I mean, the compiler can't like, tell the cpu that they don't alias
19:22:03 <Fiora> the cpu has to figure it out on its own...
19:22:22 <madbr> ah, so speculative loads actually work? :D
19:22:42 <madbr> afaik ARMs don't have speculative loads
19:23:00 <Fiora> okay, even better....
19:23:05 <Fiora> for( int i = 0; i < 128; i++ )
19:23:05 <Fiora> int off1 = randnums[i];
19:23:05 <Fiora> int off2 = randnums[i+128];
19:23:05 <Fiora> int in = input[off1];
19:23:07 <Fiora> input[off2] = in*in*in*in*in*in;
19:23:12 <Fiora> this takes 782 cycles XD
19:23:21 <Fiora> (randums[] is an array of random numbers between 0 and 128)
19:23:55 <kmc> they really missed an opportunity to name the 64-bit ARM architecture "LEG"
19:24:11 <kmc> a la Thumb
19:24:14 <pikhq> Best way to bring a C program to a screaming halt? volatile int x = 0; for(volatile unsigned int i = 0; i < UINT_MAX; i++) { x = time(0) + rand(); }
19:24:23 <Fiora> ... oh my gosh I I only just got that joke
19:24:36 <kmc> see also: ELF and DWARF
19:24:39 <pikhq> Remember, volatile is your friend.
19:24:54 <Fiora> wow . I didn't get that one either
19:25:10 <Fiora> acronym naming people are horrible/wonderful
19:25:25 <kmc> Microprocessor without Interlocking Pipeline Stages
19:25:29 <kmc> you can't elide a "without"!!
19:25:53 <Fiora> I love that one, it's like, almost immediately after the original they put the interlocks back in
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19:26:32 <Fiora> madbr: oh, so like, I made it so all the randnums were zero (so it always aliased)
19:26:35 <Fiora> now it takes 1981 cycles
19:26:51 <Fiora> if all the randnums are [0,2), it takes 1649
19:26:54 <kmc> Fiora: oh, you mean to get rid of the load/store delay slots?
19:27:33 <Fiora> so basically the cpu is speculatively executing many iterations ahead, and it has to stop and wait if it turns out the loads and stores collided
19:27:34 <madbr> but yeah that's impressive
19:27:34 <kmc> are interlocks the same thing as bypasses
19:27:57 <Fiora> ummmm I was just reading about that the other day but didn't quite get it, let me see if I can find the wikipedia explantion
19:28:08 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_RISC_pipeline#Solution_B._Pipeline_Interlock
19:28:20 <madbr> they are the same thing in... reverse............ right?
19:28:38 <Fiora> interlocks delay the pipeline when data isn't ready for an instruction, I think
19:28:50 <kmc> i guess not all hazards can be bypassed
19:29:53 <madbr> generally if you have an ADD then a LOAD
19:30:00 <madbr> that takes 2 cycles no matter what
19:30:16 <madbr> ex : address calculation
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19:30:31 <Fiora> I think like, the idea is to bypass everything you can, use delay slots where you can't (maybe), and then interlock things where you can't really or don't want to use delay slots
19:30:35 <Fiora> like a cache miss might be an interlock?
19:30:38 <madbr> something like add rx, [ra + rd] will have 3 cycles latency on the result
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19:35:35 <Fiora> I think intel actually has some performance counters for cases when speculative loads need to be cancelled because an earlier store aliased it
19:36:09 <Fiora> there's also a thing where a store's address is a multiple of 4K away from a load's address, they falsely alias
19:36:43 <madbr> looks cache line based :D
19:36:48 <Bike> because that's how the pseudohash for the cache table works, probably
19:39:35 <kmc> that sucks
19:39:41 <kmc> won't that happen a lot
19:39:49 <kmc> if you are copying between aligned arrays
19:40:59 <Bike> obviously you need to make sure that the arrays are aligned "but not too much"
19:41:04 <Fiora> I think it's generally good to avoid having things offset by *exactly* that multiple
19:41:17 <Fiora> like. don't make the stride of your array 2048 or 4096 XD
19:41:28 <madbr> it will tend to produce cacheline colocations yes
19:41:37 <Fiora> a lot of chips really dislike that
19:41:48 <Fiora> there was actually an issue in the linux kernel with bulldozer, lemme see if I can find that one
19:42:07 <Fiora> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_bulldozer_aliasing&num=1
19:42:59 <Fiora> if I remember right, it has a 2-way instruction cache that's shared between two cores in a module
19:43:15 <Fiora> and if the kernel allocates instruction pages wrong, it can cause aliasing issues that bounce cachelines back and forth between the cores
19:43:26 <Fiora> since it's only 2-way
19:47:52 <Bike> Maybe if the cache lines were aligned to some weird number like seven words this wouldn't happen!
19:47:58 <kmc> there's something unsatisfying about using cache to provide the abstraction of fast large memory, and then having to think past that abstraction and understand the cache behavior in detail to get good performance
19:48:06 <kmc> seems self-defeating
19:48:10 <kmc> i mean it doesn't matter for most programs
19:49:21 <kmc> but maybe for high performance stuff, we should just admit that our computers are distributed systems composed of lots of processors with small memories, talking to each other and to a big memory
19:49:53 <Fiora> I think that's sorta true of everything in computing? hardware tries to provide a system that's fast in general, but the more your code is aware of the hardware, the faster it can be?
19:50:48 <kmc> but sometimes it seems that you have to be not just awer of the hardware, but actively subverting the clever things it tries to do, when they are not so clever for your use case
19:51:24 <kmc> maybe if i'm writing some numerical inner loop, rather than thinking hard about automatic cache behavior, i should just tell the CPU what to cache and when
19:51:32 <kmc> people already do this with prefetch instructions
19:51:44 <Bike> guess that's what Checkout is for :p
19:51:52 <Fiora> hardware prefetching is kinda iffy though, I think a lot of guides say not to use it except in rare cases
19:51:59 <Fiora> er, software prefetching
19:52:04 <Fiora> (because the hardware prefetching is really good)
19:52:07 <Bike> well you're talking about rare cases here, aren't you
19:52:11 <kmc> gcc emits it for fairly simple loops
19:52:13 <Fiora> I've found it really hard to make software prefetching useful
19:52:33 <kmc> depending on the -march setting yeah
19:53:00 <Phantom_Hoover> so is making checkout work on a modern cpu actually possible
19:53:39 <Bike> @google esolang checkout
19:54:33 <kmc> trying to remember the case i had
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19:56:47 <Bike> "make it fast and good generally but possible to use for specific applications" is a pretty general problem for design, i guess
19:59:16 <Bike> yeah i don't even know how the hell it works
20:00:02 <Phantom_Hoover> there are all these weird behaviours that come out of nowhere
20:00:05 <Bike> should have an example bf interpreter
20:00:41 <Bike> "For each argument, create a new level 5 subunit, and execute the given code. How this command works is system-dependent." beautiful
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20:12:17 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 7h 43m 2s ago: what is sprø som selleri
20:12:17 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 7h 42m 56s ago: (THX)
20:13:02 <oerjan> that's the literal meaning.
20:13:42 <kmc> i wanted to test my Python Mersenne Twister against the reference C code
20:13:47 <kmc> and ctypes made this very easy
20:14:37 <kmc> it lets you import any .so as a Python module basically
20:18:19 <Bike> just dumps the symbol table as the list of module properties?
20:19:04 <kmc> or does dlsym() dynamically on access
20:19:05 <kmc> don't know which
20:20:15 <oerjan> <shachaf> Bike: How do you talk about unions categorically?
20:20:56 <oerjan> @tell shachaf crunchy, like celery.
20:21:07 <oerjan> _disjoint_ union is coproduct, afair.
20:21:24 <Bike> yeah but he meant not-necessarily-disjoint union.
20:21:26 <oerjan> ordinary union might be a pullback or pushout?
20:21:41 <Bike> yeah he went through all that too
20:21:44 <kmc> you have to specify argument / return types yourself, naturally
20:21:56 <kmc> but for small things that's no great hardship
20:22:10 <kmc> and the alternative (parsing C header files?) would be cumbersome for small things
20:22:12 <Bike> and it coerces tuples to arrays or whatever?
20:22:23 <kmc> something like
20:22:32 <kmc> it gives you helper functions to construct mutable arrays and such
20:22:38 <kmc> http://docs.python.org/2/library/ctypes.html
20:22:46 <kmc> it's definitely easy to screw up using it because... it's C
20:23:09 <kmc> but that seems more or less unavoidable
20:24:09 <kmc> like it's probably not the right answer for binding to a huge library with hundreds of functions and structs and whatever
20:24:32 <Bike> «Sometimes, dlls export functions with names which aren’t valid Python identifiers, like "??2@YAPAXI@Z".» dig at c++? dig at c++
20:24:49 <kmc> yeah i don't even know
20:29:20 <Bike> "ctypes tries to protect you from calling functions with the wrong number of arguments or the wrong calling convention. Unfortunately this only works on Windows. It does this by examining the stack after the function returns, so although an error is raised the function has been called" uh
20:29:38 <Bike> "There are, however, enough ways to crash Python with ctypes, so you should be careful anyway."
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20:48:26 <lambdabot> oerjan said 27m 31s ago: crunchy, like celery.
20:48:31 <shachaf> oerjan: I understood that much.
20:53:12 <oerjan> 06:53:14 <Phantom_Hoover> something that irks me: i'm not sure all those impossible geometries you can build with portals are actually non-euclidean like everyone says
20:53:15 <oerjan> 06:55:06 <Phantom_Hoover> since their curvature is still everywhere zero
20:53:28 <oerjan> i do not think "euclidean geometry" applies to everything with zero curvature.
20:54:12 <oerjan> euclidean geometry basically means your space is a vector space
20:57:08 <oerjan> euclidean geometry also has the property that (1) it looks the same everywhere (2) has trivial fundamental group.
20:58:07 <madbr> I think the difference is thas in a portal based one the non-euclidianity is concentrated in the portal junctions, where in other ones the non-euclidianity is spread over evenly (giving curvature)
20:58:43 <madbr> so your crazy portal space isn't non-euclidian locally, but globally it is
20:58:46 <madbr> or something like that
20:58:52 <oerjan> without (2) you can get things like befunge-like wrapping. without (1) you can probably get even more complicated things.
20:59:06 <oerjan> madbr: the befunge-like wrapping has no junctions.
21:00:15 <oerjan> hm it might be that (2) implies (1).
21:00:53 <oerjan> or put differently, any space with zero curvature has euclidean space as its universal covering space.
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21:01:24 <oerjan> _maybe_. i don't actually know this.
21:01:38 <madbr> tbh I'm totally out of my depth here
21:02:47 <madbr> wonder if hyperbolic befunge is possible
21:04:57 <oerjan> you'd probably base it on one of these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_tilings_in_hyperbolic_plane
21:06:19 <Bike> isn't there already a space-ish language that works on R^2 that would probably be pretty easy to generalize to arbitrary manifolds
21:09:31 <oerjan> although it's not clear to me from those kind of pictures whether the graph of connections for these tilings are really different from what you can get on a euclidean plane, without which there wouldn't be a substantial difference
21:10:50 <oerjan> heh, hyperbolic geometry allows infinite-sided regular polygons :P
21:11:11 <madbr> hyperbolic mapping would look something like
21:11:25 <Bike> but is it turing complete
21:11:26 <oerjan> that would probably just give an infinite binary tree as the graph, though.
21:12:52 <madbr> would look something like
21:12:52 <madbr> |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
21:12:52 <madbr> | || || || || || || || || |
21:12:52 <madbr> ||| |||||| |||||| |||
21:12:52 <madbr> | | | || | | || | | |
21:12:52 <madbr> ||||||||| |||||||||
21:12:53 <madbr> | || || | | || || |
21:13:06 <madbr> where | = somwhere where it's valid to put an opcode
21:13:36 <madbr> using a tiling of squares where vertexes are surrounded by 5 squares instead of 4
21:13:37 <oerjan> why i am logged out of wikipedia again, maybe i forgot to tick that box yesterday.
21:14:26 <oerjan> madbr: i'd assume you'd put opcodes on the vertices, since the tilings are transitive in those
21:14:51 <oerjan> although the regular ones are also transitive on faces and edges
21:15:44 <Bike> "Befunge/index.php" oh i forgot about that
21:17:08 <Bike> ugh why isn't there a Category:Shit That Works On Weird Spaces
21:17:48 <Bike> also Category:Articles With No Mention Of Brainfuck
21:18:15 <Taneb> Wouldn't having that category mention brainfuck?
21:18:59 <Bike> Obviously the category wouldn't include itself.
21:19:14 <Bike> (it's a small category after all)
21:19:48 <oerjan> well it says "With No Mention Of Brainfuck", not "With No Mention Of Themselves"
21:20:26 <oerjan> is Bike groaning so hard he cries?
21:20:48 <madbr> 4:6 would be easier to map to ascii
21:20:52 <Bike> actually my saline tubes are just leaky
21:21:02 <madbr> map everything to [3,2] ascii groups
21:21:35 <oerjan> madbr: what's that notation from
21:21:51 <Bike> obviously the language should be composed of analytic functions. any closed path halts because the result is zero!!
21:21:54 <madbr> just making it up on the fly
21:21:57 <oerjan> alternatively, what the heck does that mean
21:22:13 <madbr> ok normal space is 4:4
21:22:41 <madbr> 4 sided, 4 corners per vertex
21:22:48 <madbr> that's a square grid
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21:23:23 <oerjan> Bike: well the {4,4} tiling on the page i linked is euclidean, maybe that's what he means.
21:23:31 <madbr> 4:5 is a hyperbolic surface
21:24:00 <madbr> oh yeah let's use {} instead
21:24:09 <oerjan> madbr: if you call those {4,3} and {4,5} you will be using the same notation as the article... right
21:24:14 <madbr> {4,4} is a square grid
21:24:31 <madbr> {4,5} is a huperbolic space corresponding to the pattern I pasted above
21:24:46 <madbr> where you have groups of 5 squares around a corner
21:24:57 <madbr> which you could notate as
21:24:58 <oerjan> those are all in the row number 4 (but actually second) of the regular example pictures
21:24:59 <Bike> I'm kind of lost as to how cutes aren't {4,8}.
21:25:18 <madbr> cubes have square faces
21:25:21 <Bike> also they have six sides?
21:25:29 <oerjan> Bike: because each vertex has 3 edges connected
21:25:33 <madbr> yeah but they have 8 corners
21:25:43 <madbr> each corner connects 3 edges
21:25:44 <Bike> but a square has two edges on each vertex.
21:26:01 <madbr> each corner is surrounded by 3 squares
21:26:20 <madbr> like, there are 3 lines that join at each corner
21:26:41 <oerjan> equivalently, each vertex neighbors 3 faces
21:26:56 <madbr> each corner is connected to 3 different other corners
21:27:30 <oerjan> Bike: each corner on the _cube_ has 3 neighboring edges and 3 neighboring faces
21:27:54 <Bike> So how are squares {4,4}.
21:27:58 <madbr> if you change that 3 for 4 (giving you {4,4}), then your cube turns into a flat grid
21:28:13 <madbr> it's not just squares, it's a grid of squares
21:28:47 <Bike> But if you have a grid of cubes shouldn't that be {4,6} since each vertex is at six edges or six faces.
21:29:10 <madbr> no not a grid of cubes
21:29:56 <madbr> like, we're looking at surfaces
21:30:04 <madbr> the surface of a cube is 2d
21:30:12 <madbr> the surface of a square grid is 2d
21:30:26 <madbr> a grid of cubes is not a surface, it's a volume and it's 3d
21:32:47 <oerjan> madbr: hm those {4,n} n>=5 tilings _should_ be good for a hyperbolic befunge
21:33:21 <madbr> {4,6} is easier on ascii actually
21:33:29 <oerjan> and being quadrilateral, not too much change in how things work locally
21:33:35 <madbr> {4,5} you represent a group of 5 tiles as
21:33:54 <madbr> and if you apply that recursively then you fill your text file
21:34:55 <oerjan> there would still be 4 directions to go from each face. although those directions would no longer be globally consistent.
21:35:18 <madbr> yeah I think if you just keep going in the same direction you spin
21:35:27 <madbr> {4,6} would be easier
21:35:36 <madbr> you'd represent a group of 6 squares as
21:35:41 <oerjan> so you would probably need to take care how things are placed in cells, you want to distinguish rotated characters
21:35:46 <madbr> so your tiling fills the text file
21:35:52 <oerjan> and p and g needs some careful consideration :P
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21:39:36 <oerjan> <madbr> yeah I think if you just keep going in the same direction you spin <-- i don't think so, if you go between faces and always leave at the opposing edge you entered, it seems to me like all the {4,n} tilings give an infinite path
21:40:08 <madbr> there's no opposing edge in {4,5} I think
21:40:19 <madbr> tho there's one in {4,6} yes
21:40:21 <oerjan> otoh if you rotate right after each move, you will spin in _n_ steps, rather than 4 for the euclidean case
21:40:39 <oerjan> madbr: sure there is, they're still quadrilaterals
21:40:53 <oerjan> i am assuming cells are faces, not vertices
21:40:59 <madbr> damn this is hard :3
21:41:49 <oerjan> the contents of a cell need to be an opcode and a direction that opcode is facing
21:41:57 <madbr> I can't figure out an ascii mapping for surfaces that aren't {4,n}
21:42:39 <oerjan> well surfaces that aren't {4,n} would mean each cell has != 4 neighbors, which would make it locally much more different from ordinary befunge, i think
21:42:41 <Bike> map to an ascii svg description of the surface
21:43:10 <madbr> bike: how the hell do you edit that!
21:43:22 <Bike> in your text editor obviously
21:43:24 <Bike> xml is the future!
21:43:32 <oerjan> madbr: well the euclidean {6,3} is not too hard so maybe other {6,n} can be done too?
21:43:36 <Bike> THE FUTURE MADBR
21:44:01 <Bike> the future is going to leave you behind, at 2 radians from zero
21:44:03 <madbr> oerjan: ok how do you do {6,4}
21:44:20 <oerjan> ...i didn't say _i_ could do it :(
21:44:36 <Bike> totally unrelatedly "Adaptive Control of Ill-Defined Systems" and "Arrows, Structures, and Functors: The Categorical Imperative" were written by the same guy, cool
21:44:42 <zzo38> Use whatever data format is good for your use, whether it is JSON, XML, SQL, MIDI, etc
21:45:02 <oerjan> madbr: ...um you cheat and use the {4,6} one with dual markings, or something :P
21:45:30 <oerjan> (i assume they must be dual vertex-face-wise)
21:46:01 <Bike> i feel like i should be angry about appropriating kant for a dumb pun though
21:47:16 <oerjan> (x,y) coordinates won't work with this i think...
21:47:38 <madbr> ok how would this work recursively
21:48:11 <madbr> you'd start with a group of 4 hexes
21:49:33 <oerjan> what you'd want to know i think, is the translation/rotation group of this, so you can calculate when you are returning to the same spot
21:50:19 <oerjan> as i noted, (rotate-right move-forward)^n = identity
21:50:40 <oerjan> while move-forward itself seems to be infinite order
21:51:20 <oerjan> ...you'd want the group elements to be your coordinate system, i guess
21:52:05 <oerjan> this being one of those torsors we have previously discussed here not too long ago
21:52:22 <oerjan> (or well, zzo38 asked about something for which they are the answer)
21:55:13 <oerjan> or hm you could use ^><v as your generators, except they would depend on what way you were oriented when entering a cell
21:56:39 <oerjan> hm could be that {4,n}, n odd allows you to do arbitrary rotation by moving, while n even only allows you to do 180 degrees
21:57:46 <oerjan> in {4,5}, >v<^> gets you back but rotated 90 degrees left
21:58:59 <oerjan> in {4,6}, >v<^>v gets you back upside down
21:59:33 <oerjan> these are commands interpreted according to your current facing direction.
21:59:48 <oerjan> ...which is _different_ from your befunge direction of moving :P
22:06:23 <oerjan> {4,5} and {4,6} have their own wp articles, which link on to _this_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coxeter-Dynkin_diagram#Hyperbolic_groups_in_H2 ARGH
22:08:12 <Bike> `quote water memory
22:08:14 <HackEgo> 276) <zzo38> elliott: I doubt water memory can last for even one second in a gravitational field (or even outside of a gravitational field), but other people think they can make water memory with telephones.
22:08:15 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order-6_square_tiling has an escher picture :)
22:11:55 <oerjan> madbr: oh hm this should mean {4,8} will _not_ rotate your direction if you return, meaning it has globally consistent directions, i think
22:14:56 <oerjan> hm you could think of this moving around as an infinite ternary tree
22:18:17 -!- agony has joined.
22:18:28 -!- agony has changed nick to AgonyLang.
22:20:21 <AgonyLang> Hi all, I've just published my first esoteric language on esolangs: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Agony
22:21:06 <AgonyLang> It is another (there are so many) brainfuck related language, in this case actually backwards compatible mostly
22:21:23 <Bike> yes, yes there are so many
22:21:58 <AgonyLang> This version supports self modifying code, so increase the agony making something
22:23:39 <Taneb> AgonyLang, Phantom_Hoover won't be happy. He's got a Tumblr which is pretty much him hating brainfuck derivatives
22:25:02 <oerjan> and the symmetry group would be about how to identify parts of that
22:25:19 <AgonyLang> People can hate all they want, their problem, not mine
22:26:19 <Taneb> `msg HackEgo `? Phantom_Hoover
22:26:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: msg: not found
22:26:55 <Bike> `? phantom_hoover
22:26:57 <HackEgo> Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman and hatheist.
22:27:23 <zzo38> AgoryLang: Well, you are currect, but still I also think there are already too many, but don't let that stop you
22:29:26 <zzo38> I may not agree with what you have to say, but will defend your right to say it.
22:29:48 <Bike> voltaire had brainfuck derivatives in mind when he said that.
22:29:52 <AgonyLang> You have to start somewhere, I wanted to make something with very limited instructionset, able to run in a core so I can battle like CoreWar (joust is very limited), and self-modifying
22:30:02 <zzo38> Voltaire didn't say that, it was his friend.
22:30:13 <zzo38> Also, he didn't have brainfuck derivatives in mind.
22:30:39 <Taneb> AgonyLang, check out http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/fyb/doc/fyb_spec.txt
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22:31:15 <Taneb> This new language reminds me of a song..
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22:31:44 <Phantom_Hoover> AgonyLang, also, am i correct in assuming that there are only 16 addressable memory cells in this thing
22:31:52 <Taneb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAPJTik5mSo
22:33:30 <AgonyLang> Phantom_Hoover: The core can be much larger, but cells just have 4 bits -> 16 possible states
22:34:45 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, while that statement has been repeatedly established, what in particular did you have in mind?
22:35:01 <AgonyLang> Taneb: FukYorBran is closer to what I had in mind indeed, didn't see it on esolangs
22:35:24 <Taneb> AgonyLang, it's not as popular as BF Joust, because (perhaps) of its complexity
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22:36:45 <Phantom_Hoover> AgonyLang, but... there's all this stuff about addressing.
22:37:09 <AgonyLang> Taneb: Sure, especially with multiple processes. Agony was implemented in two hours max, the rules are a bit simpler I think, and leverages the self-modifying aspect a bit more. There is also Self-modifying brainfuck, but that is based on characters only
22:37:51 <AgonyLang> Phantom_Hoover, that is machine code mapping, the instructions have a binary counterpart
22:39:10 <AgonyLang> Phantom_Hoover, so for example <- (two instructions) are in binary 0100 1000, so if the memory pointer points to the "-" instruction and you call "." (character print) it prints "H" (01001000)
22:40:01 <AgonyLang> The description can be improved I see (assumptions all over the place)
22:40:32 <AgonyLang> So the Hello World! looks like this: <[.<]$$$,{}~<~)+{~*@+{$~*~)~)~@<-
22:41:06 <Phantom_Hoover> As Brainfuck derivatives go, it's not all that bad, really.
22:42:02 <AgonyLang> The funny thing is it runs quite a lot of Brainfuck programs without problems, this is just a deeper level adding the machine code memory mapping
22:42:29 <Taneb> You'd need to filter out the comments
22:42:47 <AgonyLang> Haven't implemented (nor specified) comments indeed
22:43:07 <Taneb> And most brainfuck programs assume right-infinite tape
22:43:20 <Taneb> Because some implementations don't have left-infinite tape
22:43:54 <Taneb> Interestingly, P'' (an early computational model that was virtually the same as brainfuck) has left-infinite tape
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22:44:06 <AgonyLang> Yeah, that is why I've specified putting the pointer to the right, after that having a big circular core helps
22:44:45 <Taneb> Anyway, what brought you to esolanging?
22:45:17 <AgonyLang> Pfft, I've been doing corewars for a long time, and Redcode basically it an esolang
22:45:39 <AgonyLang> And I've played with whitespace/bf for a while some time ago, and now I just had spare time
22:46:18 <Taneb> Check out Piet! http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet.html
22:46:20 <AgonyLang> Reading an article about somebody using generic algorithms in BF to create Hello World! re-spraked interest
22:47:16 <Taneb> http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet/helloworld-mondrian-big.png <-- hello world in Piet
22:49:26 <AgonyLang> Also, a friend is esoteric language fan as well, he implemented various esolangs in Redcode (for example Underload: http://corewar.co.uk/assembly/underload.htm)
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23:03:12 <oerjan> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> As Brainfuck derivatives go, it's not all that bad, really.
23:03:17 <HackEgo> 977) <Phantom_Hoover> As Brainfuck derivatives go, it's not all that bad, really.
23:05:34 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:09:45 <AgonyLang> Going to meet someone in 15 minutes who has two deaf parents, so I'm now learning a bit of sign language as a surprise, pretty esoteric as well ;)
23:10:15 <Bike> imo learn nicaraguan sign language
23:10:47 <Taneb> Make sure you learn the right damn sign language
23:10:54 <Taneb> ASL and BSL are very very different
23:11:00 <Taneb> And NSL is even more different
23:11:14 <Taneb> Other than ASL, I don't know if those acronyms are ever used
23:11:23 <Bike> what's bsl, british?
23:11:52 <impomatic> I've picked up a bit of sign language from watching kid's TV! :-(
23:13:19 <zzo38> If they are shows about sign language, then I suppose it can help a bit.
23:15:00 <hagb4rd> watching news supported by sign language..have you ever noticed, how accurate the gestures are? it's like a perfect reduction unrevealing the essence of the issue
23:15:20 <oerjan> esolang wiki, now with a genuine van rijn piece
23:15:51 <hagb4rd> busting all that rhetorical figures and euphemisms
23:21:36 <oerjan> kmc: is it boiled with charcoal?
23:21:41 <kmc> probably not
23:27:23 <Taneb> Could I piet program be represented as a map from some key to an 8-tuple of Maybe PietEffect?
23:27:34 <Taneb> Maybe (PietEffect, Key)
23:31:16 <Taneb> So... StateT Key Maybe PietEffect
23:36:24 <Taneb> Key -> (Maybe (PietEffect, Key)) * 8
23:36:50 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:6: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
23:37:06 <Taneb> > ((18 * k) + 1) * 8
23:37:14 <Taneb> > (((18 * k) + 1) * 8) ^ k
23:38:47 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo
23:39:03 <oerjan> has he reached 9 in a row yet?
23:39:55 <madbr> {4,6} is so hard to turn into a uniform grid :O
23:39:57 <Sgeo> This is the 6th
23:40:08 <Sgeo> 3 more before it's the 9-in-a-row
23:42:40 <Taneb> oerjan, key to a colour block
23:48:41 <Sgeo> I think syntax sugar helps me learn things :/
23:48:50 <Sgeo> do notation gives me an intuition about monads
23:49:24 <oerjan> leibniz notation gives people an intuition about calculus.
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23:55:54 <HackEgo> CaNtCoDe: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
23:58:32 <oerjan> hm sadly the WeLcOmE algorithm hasn't been properly refactored
23:59:18 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome $@ | python -c "print (lambda s: ''.join([ (s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(raw_input())"
23:59:54 <Jafet> @type zipWith id (cycle [toUpper, id])
00:00:58 <oerjan> is there an equivalent to raw_input() that takes an entire file?
00:01:30 <Jafet> `run python -c 'print open("bin/welcome").readlines()'
00:01:32 <HackEgo> ['#!/usr/bin/perl -w\n', 'if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome"; }\n']
00:01:46 <oerjan> ...i meant entire stdin
00:01:52 <Bike> oerjan: when I showed your colorize script to a python developer he screamed at me and rewrote it in horrror. Wanna see?
00:02:13 <Bike> Now that's enthusiasm I want to see!
00:02:13 <oerjan> it's not quite mine, fizzie wrote the original
00:02:46 <Jafet> `run welcome | python -c 'print open("/dev/stdin").read()'
00:02:51 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:03:12 <oerjan> um and read takes all?
00:03:48 <oerjan> `run cat bin/welcome | python -c 'print open("/dev/stdin").read()'
00:03:52 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome"; }
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00:04:19 <hagb4rd> `run cat bin/welcome | whatever?
00:04:20 <Bike> http://pastie.org/private/k564m0ahv1xxuqaumcafg
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00:04:27 <Bike> uses sys.stdin
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00:04:41 <Jafet> I like how the new ircd goes to great lengths to not tell you which server went down.
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00:05:30 <oerjan> Bike: that's not equivalent at all
00:06:01 -!- Sanky has joined.
00:06:02 <Jafet> > comparing length "open('/dev/stdin')" "import sys;sys.stdin"
00:06:48 <HackEgo> No LSB modules are available. \ Distributor ID:Debian \ Description:Debian GNU/Linux \ Release:n/a \ Codename:n/a
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00:08:22 <oerjan> `run (echo '#!/usr/bin/env python'; echo 'print (lambda s: "".join(['(s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(open("/dev/stdin").read())') >bin/CaT; chmod a+x CaT
00:08:24 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ bash: -c: line 0: `(echo '#!/usr/bin/env python'; echo 'print (lambda s: "".join(['(s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(open("/dev/stdin").read())') >bin/CaT; chmod a+x CaT'
00:08:55 <oerjan> `run (echo '#!/usr/bin/env python'; echo 'print (lambda s: "".join([(s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(open("/dev/stdin").read())') >bin/CaT; chmod a+x CaT
00:08:59 <HackEgo> chmod: cannot access `CaT': No such file or directory
00:09:11 <HackEgo> chmod: missing operand after `a+x bin/CaT' \ Try `chmod --help' for more information.
00:09:14 <oerjan> `run chmod a+x bin/CaT
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00:09:30 <HackEgo> WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
00:09:43 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome $@ | python -c "print (lambda s: ''.join([ (s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(raw_input())"
00:10:20 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/pyt.*/CaT/' bin/WeLcOmE
00:10:36 <HackEgo> AtEhWa: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
00:11:14 <oerjan> `run echo "cantcode: ok what did you need help with?" | CaT
00:11:16 <HackEgo> CaNtCoDe: Ok wHaT DiD YoU NeEd hElP WiTh?
00:11:50 <hagb4rd> can you make a version for zalgo? :)
00:12:28 <oerjan> i can't even _see_ zalgo.
00:12:42 <nooodl> what was wrong with old WeLcOmE
00:12:53 <Bike> not modular enough
00:12:56 <cantcode> i was just trying if it would parse it
00:12:57 <Bike> haven't you heard of unix philosophy?
00:13:08 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/$@/"$@"/' bin/WeLcOmE
00:13:21 <Bike> `run relcome | CaT
00:13:24 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | CaT
00:13:25 <HackEgo> wElCoMe tO ThE iNtErNaTiONaL hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LANgUAgE dEsIgn AnD DePlOyMeNt! fOr moRe iNfOrMatIoN, ChEcK OuT OUR wIkI: hTtP://EsolaNGS.OrG/WIkI/MaIn_PaGe. (foR tHe oTHEr kInD OF eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRic oN iRC.DaL.nET.)
00:13:34 <Bike> See? Beautiful.
00:14:20 <cantcode> it looks like a gas leak in a puddle
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00:15:46 <oerjan> cantcode: HackEgo only takes commands starting with ` . some of the other bots respond to their name (hi fungot!)
00:15:46 <fungot> oerjan: he was now a city, and of the dots perhaps a half inch more. the augmented party now began to advance directly toward the invisible building, and had no idea what the curious image could be.
00:15:49 -!- copumpkin has joined.
00:16:36 <HackEgo> ? \ @ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ addquote \ allquotes \ anonlog \ aseen \ botsnack \ bseen \ calc \ CaT \ colorize \ define \ delquote \ elist \ emmental \ emoclew \ emptylist \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ fueue \ gaseen \ google \ h \ ?h \ h! \ hatesgeo \ ?hh \ hyfinate \ hyphenate.fi \ interp \ joustreport \ jousturl \ js \ json \ ka
00:17:00 <oerjan> not much spanish here, sorry
00:17:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: oh: not found
00:17:34 <Bike> `run botsnack | colorize | CaT
00:17:56 <oerjan> oonbotti: you are the only bot i remember who actually parses english, no?
00:17:56 <oonbotti> oerjan: Why do you think I am the only bot you remember who actually parses english, no?
00:17:57 <Bike> Indeed, it is that.
00:18:27 <oerjan> oonbotti: habla espanol?
00:18:27 <oonbotti> oerjan: Perhaps the answer lies within yourself?
00:18:38 <nooga> ¿shouldn't you use ¿ for spanish questions?
00:19:00 <nooga> anyway, do spaniards really use ¿ on the internet?
00:19:01 <oerjan> oonbotti: ¿habla español?
00:19:24 <nooga> ¿, huh, add this to one of our bots
00:19:40 <Bike> not usually, in my experience (do they use it)
00:19:59 <Bike> not that i know any actual spaniards, just spanish-speakers from the other half of the world
00:20:01 <zzo38> What's that? ELIZA?
00:20:04 <nooga> ¿que es una gasoliniera cerca de aqui?
00:20:07 <Bike> sure looks like eliza.
00:20:17 <oerjan> zzo38: oonbotti? i think so.
00:20:18 <Bike> nooga: irc.dal.net
00:24:01 <Bike> We need a Parry in here.
00:29:00 <fungot> Jafet: when i fnord hinted to others about my find, and this was their tragic homecoming. they had, and between each pair of anklets stretched a golden chain that held its fnord to a significance beyond the emotion which it excites and is. for the man who
00:30:36 * hagb4rd nervously jingles his chains
00:31:18 <Sgeo> "Yes, the ratio of a perfect circle to its radius should be rational. The fact that it is irrational proves that either a. the circle is not perfect, or that b. the space plane the circle occupies is not perfectly flat and consistent."
00:31:56 * Bike imagines riding a space plane, scratching a circle into the window
00:32:42 <Bike> Sgeo: I hear Khinchin's constant is rational.
00:34:17 <Phantom_Hoover> i can't believe it's still not known whether the euler-mascheroni constant is rational
00:34:58 <oerjan> i can't believe it's not maccheroni
00:35:25 <Bike> If you pick a random real number it's probably pretty hard to prove its irrationality.
00:38:09 <Taneb> Don't you need the axiom of choice to pick a random real number
00:40:59 <Phantom_Hoover> yes but let's face it, what can you prove about a random real number
00:41:20 <Bike> "it exists, maybe"
00:41:29 <Bike> depending on how constructivist you are??
00:42:09 <Bike> Maybe it would be better to restrict it to definable numbers...
00:42:47 <oerjan> the definable numbers are countable and so don't have a uniform probability distribution
00:43:08 <oerjan> well, neither do reals for that matter
00:43:26 <oerjan> conclusion: random real numbers don't exist!
00:44:20 <Bike> I meant like, in [0,1] though.
00:47:29 <oerjan> then the definable numbers still don't have a uniform one, hth
00:47:37 <hagb4rd> in fact, one of gods biggest problems might have been designing some unpredictability. otherways it eternatity would be so boring.
00:48:13 <madbr> it's it possible to do a turing complete language with only one bignum variable
00:48:33 <Bike> psh who needs variables
00:48:58 <Taneb> madbr, you can encode lists of integers as an integer if you think in terms of product of primes
00:49:04 <Bike> lambda calculus has variables!
00:49:08 * Bike was actually thinking combinators
00:49:17 <Bike> Schönfinkel in da house
00:49:19 <madbr> taneb: yeah but that's ok if you have like 2 or 3 variables
00:49:41 <Taneb> [1, 2, 3] -> 2^1 * 3^2 * 5^3 = 2250
00:50:26 <oerjan> which essentially does what Taneb says
00:50:29 <Taneb> madbr, you can do that for infinite variables because there are infinite primes
00:50:33 <Phantom_Hoover> madbr, we proved sumamoito tc essentially using only one variable
00:50:59 <Bike> You could also use a more reasonable code but lol math.
00:51:52 <Phantom_Hoover> (there were a few others because sumamoito has next to no facilities for actually manipulating that variable, but they wouldn't be needed if you had arithmetic builtins)
00:53:14 <Phantom_Hoover> the back of my chair went loose and now my neck hurts like hell
00:53:31 <Phantom_Hoover> why didn't i listen when they warned me about good posture
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01:45:57 <Jafet> A random real number isn't even random
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02:01:40 <hagb4rd> http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/155156/is-it-generally-accepted-that-if-you-throw-a-dart-at-a-number-line-you-will-neve
02:03:26 <madbr> yeah it's like countably infinite (rationals) vs uncountably infinite (irrationals)
02:03:29 <madbr> or something like that
02:04:04 <Fiora> if you throw a countably infinite number of darts, what's the probability at least one will hit a rational?
02:04:31 <madbr> heh that's a hard question
02:05:11 <Gregor> Sounds like the kind of problem that's fun to complicate unnecessarily.
02:05:22 <Gregor> I like complicating the birthday "paradox" by mentioning that birthdays are not evenly distributed.
02:05:33 <pikhq> I am going to arbitrarily say the probability is epsilon.
02:05:35 <Gregor> "How strong is your throwing arm?"
02:05:42 <Gregor> "How far is the number line from the thrower?
02:05:42 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how, if you look at the wikipedia article on 'wedge', the actual article on real-life wedges is near the bottom
02:05:48 <Gregor> "How big are the darts?"
02:05:57 <Phantom_Hoover> <madbr> yeah it's like countably infinite (rationals) vs uncountably infinite (irrationals)
02:06:05 <Fiora> I guess my intuition would say that on average one would hit?
02:06:13 <Fiora> but this seems like a case where intuition will be totally wrong
02:06:37 <Phantom_Hoover> but idk if you can have a measure space with both uncountable and countable sets with nonzero measure
02:06:38 <pikhq> Intuition hates cardinality.
02:06:47 <oerjan> <Fiora> if you throw a countably infinite number of darts, what's the probability at least one will hit a rational? <-- 0 hth
02:07:18 <madbr> essentially rationals and non-transcendental irrationals are countable so they have a surface area of 0
02:07:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, something something something countable products
02:07:44 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: sure you can, you can sum a discrete and a continuous measure easily
02:09:03 <Bike> Man, I just want to know how hard proving something rational is.
02:09:13 <madbr> countably infinite number of darts, I don't think you'd hit anything
02:09:42 <madbr> you've got countable infinity number of points that can be hit
02:09:56 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you can also split it up into a continuous and a discrete one
02:09:58 <madbr> and countably infinite number of darts that will be thrown
02:09:59 <hagb4rd> a few weeks ago i've heard another interesting analogy including darts, chances of hit, and all that improbable (but true) cicumstances leading straight to the possibility of existance. it's that there are two way of the perfect 'hit': one is aiming and hitting by chance.. the other is like throwing the dart somewhere and drowing the mark around the place it hits :>
02:10:08 <madbr> countable infinity * countable infinity = still countable infinity
02:10:38 <Fiora> Bike: is it proving rational or transcendental that's hard?
02:10:45 <Fiora> I thought rational wasjust proving it could be expressed as p/q
02:10:47 <Jafet> I know a guy on the street who sells perfect hits
02:11:19 <Gregor> hagb4rd: That sounds like the kind of analogy that a painfully stupid person might use as proof of God or divine design.
02:11:37 <Bike> Fiora: well, we've proved less numbers transcendental, and all rationals are algebraic...
02:11:46 <hagb4rd> just some humoristic thoughts
02:11:51 <Fiora> Bike: yeah, that's what I thought
02:11:53 <Fiora> transcendental is the hard one
02:11:57 <oerjan> btw it's simply basic countable additivity of measures, an axiom. mu(A_1 \/ A_2 \/ ...) <= sum mu(A_i) = 0
02:12:14 <Bike> But we still don't know if Euler-Mascheroni or Khinchin are rational, let alone algebraic.
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02:12:25 <oerjan> (ok a little more work to show it's subadditive when the sets are not disjoint.)
02:12:47 <Bike> Yeah, it's weird.
02:12:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, the difficulty is simply that proving /anything/ on an arbitrary real number is really hard
02:12:55 <Bike> Khinchin is a really weird constant anyway.
02:13:07 <Bike> And relevant! Since almost all real numbers conform to it.
02:13:33 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: well, it's not arbitrary, it's computable, right?
02:13:36 <Fiora> and computable reals are countable
02:14:17 <Phantom_Hoover> otoh proving anything on an arbitrary computable number is harder in even messier ways
02:14:19 <Fiora> I meant like, countable as in countably infinite right
02:14:26 <Bike> The hell does that mean? Obviously it's not recursive but what's that have to do with cardinality
02:14:46 <Phantom_Hoover> i just thought it was really weird when i first realised
02:14:55 <Bike> well it's still r.e.
02:15:54 <oerjan> <Fiora> Bike: is it proving rational or transcendental that's hard? <-- basically if a number isn't obviously one of those by construction, then discerning them is usually hard.
02:16:08 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah, you can just enumerate the set of programs in some languag
02:16:40 <Phantom_Hoover> but discerning the ones that correspond to computable reals is isomorphic to the halting problem, of course
02:17:04 <Fiora> yeah, I guess it's like, proving things /not/ rational is hard <.<
02:17:46 <oerjan> and proving things rational is hard if you cannot find the particular rational they're equal to
02:17:59 <shachaf> That's why people like me are still roaming the streets.
02:18:12 <Fiora> searching. searching for the rational numbers hiding in the dark alleys
02:18:32 <Fiora> passing out illegal primes
02:18:32 <shachaf> Hmm, I was thinking along the lines of "no one can prove I'm not rational".
02:18:42 <Jafet> Does anyone really care whether khinchin's constant is irrational
02:19:49 <shachaf> Not all is lost, though! At least the Euler-Macaroni constant is computable.
02:19:51 <Jafet> ( save the implications! )
02:20:28 <oerjan> also the euler-macarena constant is real
02:20:37 <zzo38> Do you mean Euler-Mascheroni?
02:20:38 <Jafet> Does a program that computes the euler-macaroni constant consist of spaghetti code?
02:21:02 <zzo38> Wikipedia doesn't have Euler-Macaroni.
02:21:30 <shachaf> zzo38: If I want to call it Euler-Macaroni, then by FSM, I will!
02:22:05 <oerjan> shachaf: the euler-mascara constant isn't any random person's to name
02:22:25 <zzo38> shachaf: I am not trying to stop you.
02:22:25 <Phantom_Hoover> istr my analysis notes saying we only know the euler-mechanic constant to 20 digits
02:22:40 <Bike> Jafet: "it would be really weird"
02:22:56 <Fiora> that was true in... 1809 or so?
02:23:02 <shachaf> zzo38: I see right through your Euler-Masquerade!
02:23:04 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the wikipedia introduction has 50...
02:23:10 <Bike> hagb4rd: notes from a class on analysis
02:23:16 <hagb4rd> sieged by ignorant misanthropes spitting words
02:23:18 <Fiora> it says we know 28,844,489,545 as of 2009? XD
02:23:22 <hagb4rd> writing songs that voices never share
02:23:39 <Bike> Fiora: eh, what's nine orders of magnitude between friends
02:23:44 <Jafet> Phantom_Hoover was probably thinking about bruno's constant
02:24:24 <zzo38> shachaf: Do you like to see things that aren't necessarily there?
02:25:05 <shachaf> zzo38: Like a hippopotamus?
02:25:14 <shachaf> zzo38: Oh, are you talking about modal logic here?
02:25:44 <oerjan> in that case, have you ever seen a thing that was necessarily there?
02:27:01 <shachaf> You mean me, and I mean modal logic.
02:27:07 <shachaf> And surely meaning is transitive?
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02:29:29 <shachaf> zzo38: You should invent a crazy new kind of modal logic that uses crazy new symbols.
02:29:38 <shachaf> Maybe things like 25C9 FISHEYE [◉]
02:31:24 <Bike> Maybe logic for optics.
02:31:53 <shachaf> See the difference between those two?
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02:32:49 <shachaf> hagb4rd: Have you ever said anything useful?
02:33:36 <HackEgo> Jon1: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:34:50 <hagb4rd> shachaf: have ever made someone happy?
02:34:50 <Jafet> `relcome Phantom_Hoover
02:34:55 <HackEgo> Phantom_Hoover: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:35:23 <Phantom_Hoover> hagb4rd, on this channel, at leasy, he has a considerable lead on you.
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02:36:11 <hagb4rd> hope you have an idea of the next goal to achieve
02:36:28 <Phantom_Hoover> tell me, hagb4rd, do you actually think all the shit that comes out of your mouth is deep, or are you just posturing
02:37:32 <hagb4rd> shit that comes out of my mouth
02:37:38 <madbr> how good are compilers at optimizing loop test conditions?
02:38:58 <Fiora> um, like, what specifically about them?
02:40:16 <Fiora> like, trying to count down to avoid cmp at the end and stuff?
02:41:10 <shachaf> whoa,dude, look at all these TLDs: http://www.iana.org/domains/special
02:41:35 <madbr> no more like guessing that your routine is going to loop like 8 times in one go
02:42:01 <Fiora> you mean, unrolling?
02:42:28 <shachaf> The easy way to figure out how good a compiler is at optimizing a specific piece of code is to compile that piece of code and see what it does.
02:44:19 <madbr> wondering about this because I'm working on a, uh, fairly interesting CPU arch
02:44:58 <zzo38> Do you have any better documentation of Yamaha OPM?
02:45:09 <Bike> ooh, devanagari?
02:45:28 <madbr> the one where iteration 1 of a loop is done on core 1, iteration 2 is on core 2, iteration 3 is on core 3, iteration 4 is on core 4, iteration 5 is on core 5, iteration 6 is on core 6, iteration 7 is on core 7, iteration 8 is on core 8, iteration 9 is on core 1, iteration 10 is on core 2...
02:45:34 <Fiora> wait, this is a real cpu arch?
02:45:53 <Jafet> "Powered by MEDIAWIKI"
02:46:00 <madbr> but it's definitely doable
02:46:02 <Fiora> um. I don't think you can meaningfully ask
02:46:09 <Fiora> what a compiler does on an arch that doesn't exist <.<
02:46:27 <Jafet> Well, you can, unless the compiler also does not exist
02:46:35 <Jafet> Then it is less meaningful
02:47:14 <shachaf> I suppose it was a more general "what sorts of loopy behaviors are compilers good at recognizing?" sort of question.
02:47:17 <madbr> zzo : hmm... I remember being told that if you try to change synth params on the fly, OPM (or was it OPN2?) can crash
02:47:18 <Bike> well guessing at loop invariants is an optimization thing dating from the 60s
02:47:21 <Jafet> If your CPU has eight cores and fully coherent shared cache, you are doomed to fail in any case.
02:48:16 <madbr> jafet : it's more like 8-way SSE / 8-issue superscalar
02:48:26 <madbr> might cut it down to 4-way
02:48:30 <Fiora> 8-issue superscalar already exists, I think
02:48:33 <Fiora> there's some TI DSPs that do that
02:48:58 <madbr> the nice thing is that the design will be a lot less complicated than some of those
02:49:19 <Fiora> um, are you sure? some ofthose DSPs use less than a watt and are miniscule
02:49:33 <Fiora> I mean, like, they're not complicated
02:49:56 <madbr> yeah and you have to write for them in ASM?
02:50:06 <Fiora> I don't think so...
02:50:22 <Fiora> http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/dsp/c6000_dsp/c64x/products.page
02:50:53 <Fiora> http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/sprs371f/sprs371f.pdf
02:52:16 <zzo38> madbr: Yes, I think I read something about such things doing so too, but still, I have not found any good documentation for OPM.
02:52:41 <madbr> fiora: hmm, that looks fairly close to what the crusoe did
02:53:11 <madbr> same kind of 8 unit pre-issued super-superscalar vliw design
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02:54:55 <madbr> fiora : that's a DSP
02:55:04 <madbr> essentially 2 cores bundled together
02:55:19 <madbr> can you really write efficient code for that in C++? :D
02:55:51 <Fiora> I don't think it's two cores?
02:56:05 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TMS320C64x doesn't say anything about multicore at least
02:56:18 <Fiora> oh, I see. the two sets of functional units.
02:56:50 <madbr> yeah so it's not multicore but it's two units
02:57:52 <Fiora> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1453718/ti-dsp-programming-is-c-fast-enough-or-do-i-need-an-assembler I found this I guess
02:59:17 <madbr> yeah so you probably have to use intrinsics
02:59:33 <Fiora> I think the intrinsics are just for the built-in SIMD stuff
02:59:38 <Fiora> like the 2x16-bit and 4x8-bit?
02:59:54 <Fiora> since, like, you can't really write that in C
03:00:17 <madbr> the design I have beats that
03:00:22 <madbr> it can vectorize any loop
03:00:48 <madbr> as long as you delay the write operations to the next cycle
03:01:50 <madbr> which is why it has to have special registers for data feedback from iteration to iteration
03:02:08 <madbr> and some opcodes to "lock" memory addresses until the real writeback
03:02:23 <madbr> but other than that it's just a normal RISC
03:05:45 <madbr> like, you only even just need a decoder for the first core
03:06:09 <madbr> and just use delayed versions of the same instructions next cycle on the next core
03:07:52 <madbr> the point is to get performance similar to crazy superscalar RISCs
03:08:06 <madbr> but for much less complexity
03:08:23 <madbr> and without the severe restrictions on datapaths etc you see in DSPs
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03:16:45 <hagb4rd> this sounds interesting. would you mind to share a look on your solution/code/paper? (as long as it's not finished and sold/open source)
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04:40:33 <madbr> hagb4rd : I have a little bit of what code would look like on it
04:41:26 <madbr> http://pastebin.com/eCMNNxiF
04:42:22 <madbr> doesn't use feedback registers or anti-alias memory operations tho (so it would probably have to be written as ASM or with intrinsics)
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06:16:30 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ralist: not found
06:18:35 <pikhq> SirCmpwn: Hmm. Where in CO are ye?
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06:21:19 <shachaf> Sgeo: Red Alert 4 is coming out?
06:21:49 <Sgeo> Sam Hughes posted a new story in Ra
06:21:54 <Sgeo> http://qntm.org/ra
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06:26:32 <ais523> theory: it is substantially easier for something to be awesome if it has no purpose other than awesomeness
06:27:20 <Sgeo> Other Sam Hughes?
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06:27:50 <shachaf> ais523: I would imagine the opposite.
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06:27:59 <Sgeo> ais523, that makes sense. Although I don't know if that's true in all cases. Certainly in a game like Worms, Armageddon is awesome but near useless
06:28:37 <Sgeo> (Armageddon sends asteroids that destroys most of the land and kills most things, friendly or not)
06:28:44 <ais523> the example I'm thinking of, is adding a background character to a gameshow, who does nothing but watch, and make a map of the activity, and can /teleport/
06:28:55 <ais523> I find this to be very awesome, despite being completely pointless
06:29:11 <ais523> like, all the things he could do with teleportation ability, and he chooses to do that
06:29:22 <Bike> oh good i thought you were going to make them be the character representing the viewer
06:29:22 <ais523> also he never does anything with the map, AFAICT
06:29:37 <ais523> Bike: hmm, well it's not my character
06:29:44 <Sgeo> Searching for Armageddon about a game called Worms Armageddon is kind of difficult
06:29:45 <ais523> perhaps he represents the viewer? it seems unlikely though
06:29:57 <ais523> Sgeo: this is actually the reason Ubuntu versions have such weird names
06:30:05 <Fiora> I'm imagining a teleporting nepeta
06:30:23 <shachaf> Fiora: I had nothing to do with it!
06:30:27 <SirCmpwn> pikhq: haven't been highlighted in here in a while
06:30:34 <SirCmpwn> pikhq: I'm in Colorado Springs, near Garden of the Gods
06:30:45 <Sgeo> ais523, a character in Homestuck.
06:30:58 <shachaf> ais523: Apparently related to me.
06:31:01 <pikhq> SirCmpwn: I'm in Falcon.
06:31:04 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends.
06:31:24 <HackEgo> Agent "Iä" Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving.
06:31:30 <pikhq> Now to wonder if I know you in meatspace.
06:31:43 <Fiora> she makes charts of all the relationships of the other characters and updates it as the story goes on
06:31:52 <ais523> Fiora: oh, that makes sense
06:32:00 <ais523> that's also kind-of awesome
06:32:01 <Fiora> (but isn't that involved in the main plot)
06:32:10 <shachaf> Not for #esoteric, anyway.
06:32:32 <pikhq> SirCmpwn: Would you happen to know a "Josiah Worcester"?
06:32:47 <ais523> pikhq: isn't that pikhq's real name?
06:32:53 <SirCmpwn> the only time I've been in Falcon was for a marching band competetion in high school
06:33:00 <ais523> I'm kind-of amused I recognised it
06:33:06 <ais523> haven't seen it for years
06:33:10 <Fiora> http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100727230124/mspaintadventures/images/1/13/02295.gif <-- the 'shipping wall'
06:33:38 <ais523> hmm… other things that are unexpectedly awesome: in An Untitled Story, very few of the characters have names
06:34:02 <shachaf> At this point I am confused.
06:34:04 <lambdabot> *** "awesome" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
06:34:05 <lambdabot> adj 1: inspiring awe or admiration or wonder; "New York is an
06:34:05 <lambdabot> amazing city"; "the Grand Canyon is an awe-inspiring
06:34:05 <lambdabot> sight"; "the awesome complexity of the universe"; "this
06:34:11 <ais523> there's one character (a shuriken-throwing ninja) who appears exactly twice, makes a grand appearance that's hard to exist, and although his name is never said in-game, it's apparently "Shakespeare"
06:34:16 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, that's my real name.
06:34:21 <pikhq> ais523: I am Josiah "pikhq" Worcester.
06:34:22 <ais523> and that makes him rather more awesome than he would be otherwise
06:34:39 <ais523> pikhq: SDA grammar? (SDA always presents nicknames like that, it looks weird)
06:34:48 <pikhq> SirCmpwn: Anyways. I'm a student at UCCS.
06:34:57 <SirCmpwn> pikhq: there's a UCCS in falcon?
06:35:08 <shachaf> "University of Colorado Colorado Springs"?
06:35:10 <pikhq> SirCmpwn: No, I drive the 15 miles.
06:35:13 <shachaf> Do they actually call it that?
06:35:19 <Sgeo> Incidentally, the girl with the blue helmet in the red circle in that chart is Nepeta
06:35:32 <pikhq> SirCmpwn: Though there *is* a PPCC campus out here now.
06:35:35 <shachaf> Sgeo: It's like looking into a cosmirror.
06:35:41 <Sgeo> (She's in that relationship, and also wants to be in the relationship that has her and the guy with the Cancer symbol)
06:35:42 <pikhq> It's kinda pathetic, but nevertheless.
06:35:44 <SirCmpwn> pikhq: feel free to give me a ring sometime and I'll buy you a beer, or your age bracket's equivalent of beer
06:35:57 <pikhq> My age bracket's equivalent of beer is beer, so.
06:36:14 <ais523> so the sentence can be optimized
06:36:15 <shachaf> A ring? Isn't it a bit early for that?
06:36:18 <pikhq> Sadly just started on some meds that scream "don't use alcohol" though.
06:36:31 <Sgeo> Fiora, look at the probably not relationship
06:36:43 <pikhq> Depression. ... So, twice bad idea actually.
06:37:15 <ais523> pikhq: I recommend not trying to implement Feather as a depression cure
06:37:20 <ais523> I tried once, I thought it might help
06:37:21 <pikhq> ais523: No plans to.
06:37:24 <ais523> instead I ended up depressed /and/ confused
06:37:37 <Fiora> Sgeo: ironically yeah <.< took 3 years though
06:37:41 <Bike> oh i thought he meant, "not trying to implement feather" as a depression cure
06:37:51 <SirCmpwn> I hear sex is good for sadness
06:38:00 <SirCmpwn> though not suitable as a long term cure
06:38:00 <pikhq> Yeah, but not really for depression.
06:38:14 <ais523> "trying not to implement Feather" is a combination that hasn't been tried, perhaps?
06:38:22 <ais523> the usual state of affairs is "trying to not implement Feather"
06:38:33 <ais523> and occasionally, "trying to implement not-Feather"
06:38:48 <pikhq> Alas, sex with girlfriend does not exactly do anything about feelings of self-loathing.
06:38:52 <Sgeo> How do I tell the difference between sadness because of my situation and depression?
06:39:04 <SirCmpwn> pikhq: have you tried auto-fellatio?
06:39:18 <pikhq> SirCmpwn: I am insufficiently flexible.
06:39:38 <ais523> pikhq: fwiw, as far as I can tell the best cure for depression is having something to achieve
06:39:54 <SirCmpwn> apparently it's medical advice hour in #esoteric
06:40:02 <Bike> Sgeo: doc tells you you're crazy
06:40:11 <Fiora> is "seeing a psychologist" on that list?
06:40:33 <pikhq> ais523: Yeah, um, getting out of bed is quite an accomplishment.
06:40:37 <Bike> do we have an `mlist too
06:40:40 <zzo38> Is "seeing a philosopher" on the other list?
06:40:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: mlist: not found
06:40:56 <shachaf> Seeing a psychologist sounds like a bad idea to me.
06:41:01 <ais523> pikhq: that sounds more like flu than depression
06:41:08 <shachaf> Then again, what if I have an anti-psychologist neurosis?
06:41:10 <Bike> yeah, psychiatrist would be better
06:41:13 <pikhq> And anyways, I've just *started* medical treatment for it.
06:41:21 <shachaf> Psychiatrist sounds like an even worse idea to me.
06:41:23 <Bike> ais523: it's pretty common with depression too. lack of energy and stuff
06:41:24 <ais523> hmm, medical treatment sounds like it might help
06:41:54 <zzo38> No! Philosopher would be better, unless you are really religious in which case you should go to church instead.
06:41:55 <Bike> People who have it really really really bad can like, stay up for days straight starting at walls.
06:42:13 <pikhq> ais523: Depression is rather different from merely being sad. Utter lack of energy and motivation, inability to enjoy things...
06:42:32 <Bike> you missed an opportunity to call it anhedonia
06:42:39 <Bike> good enough word that you should use it as much as possible imo
06:42:50 <pikhq> Particularly if it's applicable.
06:43:05 <pikhq> Anhedonia may be the worst thing.
06:43:07 <ais523> and yeah, Bike's word is indeed good
06:43:11 <Sgeo> zzo38, um, I don't think philosophy can fix brain chemical balance issues
06:43:36 <ais523> Sgeo: it could change the way you react to them
06:43:41 <zzo38> Sgeo: I also don't think so, but it is worth a try
06:43:41 <Bike> you know i'm not sure how to feel about the "chemical imbalance" thing
06:44:04 <Bike> on the one hand, it helps dissociate it from the common "just stop being sad" reaction. on the other, it's not very accurate and biopsychiatry by itself isn't so great
06:44:30 <ais523> I also had not seen the word "biopsychiatry" before
06:44:30 <madbr> does it vary from case to case?
06:44:36 <pikhq> It's a *lot* closer than many misconceptions of how depression works, though.
06:44:37 * ais523 invents molecular philosophy
06:44:47 <Fiora> Bike: how about "depression is a brain state with negative consequences that is often difficult to escape through normal means"?
06:44:55 <Sgeo> What is a more accurate description?
06:44:58 <Bike> Fiora: Sounds complicated.
06:45:04 <pikhq> In that clearly depression is an unusual and tricky brain state.
06:45:09 <Bike> Sgeo: Probably what Fiora said, I guess.
06:45:28 <Fiora> I'm imagining, like. a gradient descent search getting caught in a valley
06:45:31 <Bike> biopsychiatry is just psychiatry from a biological view; you're insane because your neurotransmitters don't bond dopamine the right way, or w/e
06:45:53 <Bike> unfortunately chemical treatment alone isn't always effective.
06:46:11 <zzo38> If you don't have anything to do, then do something else.
06:46:27 <ais523> molecular philosophy is, like, do atoms have rights?
06:46:43 <Bike> Oh, I was thinking mereology.
06:46:51 <SirCmpwn> I think anything capable of asking for civil rights should be granted them
06:46:55 <ais523> if you replace every atom of someone with another atom, when do they lose their rights?
06:46:56 <SirCmpwn> so, tell me, have atoms asked?
06:47:04 <Fiora> large groups of atoms have asked!
06:47:05 <Sgeo> main = putStrLn "May I have civil rights?"
06:47:05 <madbr> bike : for some mental illnesses that's the best treatment we have I think
06:47:22 <zzo38> SirCmpwn: Well, yes, I think so too. But still, you must think of it more thoroughly.
06:47:28 <Bike> madbr: usually some kind of therapy along with drugs helps. but as you said (or, asked) it varies from case to case.
06:47:41 <zzo38> Yes, atom will have a rights to be atomic, for example.
06:47:52 <pikhq> Bike: Be nice if it were... Simple, easy cure for being in a state where "pleasure" is nontrivial would be nice.
06:48:00 <ais523> zzo38: was that a pun?
06:48:01 <zzo38> They don't do other things, so the other rights simply is not applicable; therefore you don't answer yes or no.
06:48:03 <Bike> Fiora: but can you really say atoms are "groups" in any meaningful sense ehhhhh??
06:48:15 <zzo38> ais523: I don't know.
06:48:56 <Bike> pikhq: and on the other side, http://depressioncomix.tumblr.com/image/41893397817
06:49:01 <zzo38> Bike: Everything is "groups" of stuff simply defined as being stuff by the division we are using into physical objects; that is not the only way to do it! All the universe is one thing all together.
06:49:09 <SirCmpwn> zzo38: well, you can offer civil rights, even if they are incapable of using them
06:49:34 <zzo38> SirCmpwn: It wouldn't be useful or even meaningful though.
06:49:38 <pikhq> Bike: Mmm. I recently was linked to that tumblr. It is... rather too applicable.
06:49:39 <ais523> wait I just noticed the topic
06:50:00 <SirCmpwn> zzo38: doesn't matter. If they ask, they'll be offered them. They needn't take advantage of it
06:50:01 <Bike> pikhq: i know, right :(
06:50:02 <ais523> I'm not even angry, I don't think it technically breaks any rules
06:50:03 <zzo38> Should they have the rights? Yes, but since it isn't even meaningful to say does have such rights, it is not yes.
06:50:15 <SirCmpwn> zzo38: also: collectively, atoms are capable of taking advantage of civil rights
06:50:24 <ais523> I think zzo38's viewpoint makes a lot of sense here
06:50:29 <Bike> Sgeo: the funny thing is, the comic's by the same guy as did Sexy Losers.
06:50:44 <zzo38> SirCmpwn: O, yes, of course you can do that, I suppose. But *if they ask* it means. Really you consider the large object consisting of many atoms, which is ask.
06:50:50 <Sgeo> Bike, was he depressed? I remember he stopped doing them
06:50:55 <zzo38> If they ask individually, is they aren't.
06:50:56 <SirCmpwn> zzo38: but, more to the point, anyone capable of asking for civil rights is also capable of, say, casting a vote
06:51:05 <zzo38> If it was, it would be meaningful!
06:51:18 <zzo38> If it cannot civil rights then it cannot ask, either.
06:51:24 <Bike> Sgeo: He is, but I don't think that's why he stopped. I think he does Sexy Losers ish comics occasionally on another tumblr actually.
06:51:27 <ais523> SirCmpwn: casting votes can be automated very easily
06:51:50 <ais523> does that mean computers need rights?
06:51:55 <zzo38> SirCmpwn: Yes, that is true.
06:52:01 <SirCmpwn> ais523: just one example. The point here is that someone capable of communicating their desire for civil rights is capable of communicating their opinions as offered by those rights
06:52:07 <zzo38> But not really relevant, until you figure out the first thing, really?
06:52:09 <ais523> (arguably, all evolutions in voting methods have been attempts to avoid the automation of voting)
06:52:18 <pikhq> But, yeah, SirCmpwn. Appreciate the offer of beer, but ATM I've got a stock of such that I intend not to drink because I do not want to see how fluoxetine and ethanol interact.
06:52:27 <SirCmpwn> ais523: before you say "I'll write a script to ask for civil rights", know that I'll find you and slap the shit out of you
06:52:29 <zzo38> ais523: Computers are what they are programmed to be.
06:52:49 <ais523> SirCmpwn: you can write a script to print words to the screen, but I don't know if it would understand what it was saying
06:52:52 <zzo38> Does mathematical formulas have the right to vote *by themself*? You cannot easily count all the possible ones...
06:52:59 <ais523> I think you can write a script to request civil rights for the author of the script
06:52:59 <Bike> voting is pointless anyway haven't you all heard of arrow's theorem !!!
06:53:09 <SirCmpwn> also, if sentient computing is achieved, those computers should be granted civil rights
06:53:24 <ais523> Bike: I have, it doesn't really prove that voting is pointless though
06:53:36 <Sgeo> SirCmpwn, didn't I do that just above?
06:53:38 <ais523> basically, it just proves that except in ideal circumstances, all voting methods have defects
06:53:43 <Sgeo> The thing that you said you'd slap ais523 for?
06:53:54 <SirCmpwn> Sgeo: I didn't notice, but I'd slap you over it, too
06:53:56 <ais523> Sgeo: you've been slapped down by the channel often enough already
06:54:20 <ais523> btw, I /still/ don't recommend attempting to give your girlfriend cancer
06:54:30 <Bike> I'm forced to agree.
06:54:33 <SirCmpwn> <pikhq> But, yeah, SirCmpwn. Appreciate the offer of beer, but ATM I've got a stock of such that I intend not to drink because I do not want to see how fluoxetine and ethanol interact.
06:54:39 <ais523> (backstory: some of the other members of the channel recommended that as a joke, AFAICT; I disagreed with them)
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06:54:45 * pikhq has not been paying attention to this room enough.
06:54:46 <zzo38> If you have room with people who don't know Chinese but will follow all the instructions given to them to make an answer to a question in Chinese (like ELIZA and some computer programs, but completely by hand), are they Chinese?
06:54:47 <SirCmpwn> pikhq: alright, no problem. Swap beer out for "social gathering" if you wish
06:54:51 <ais523> (further backstory: it's not entirely clear whether Sgeo actually has a girlfriend)
06:55:03 <pikhq> SirCmpwn: Very well then, sounds reasonable.
06:55:19 <zzo38> But really you must consider mathematics. Can a mathematics think?
06:55:36 <Sgeo> I have a girlfriend as of more recently than that occurred.
06:55:38 <Bike> fuck, i can't even joke off of what zzo38 said, because I just KNOW some psephologist has considered how elections would work in the presence of countably infinite voters.
06:55:40 <zzo38> I don't want to ask if a computer can think; I want to ask if a mathematics can think!
06:56:00 <Bike> ('psephologist' is a good word too btw)
06:56:02 <ais523> Bike: what's a psephologist?
06:56:09 <SirCmpwn> zzo38: I suppose a sufficiently complex algorithm could think, but only with the assistance of a human interpreter, whose skills would be far too lacking to manage it
06:56:12 <ais523> and yeah, you've come up with three words I didn't know in less than an hour
06:56:19 <Bike> ais523: someone who studies voting systems
06:56:38 * pikhq wonders what his talking-here stats have looked like in the past couple years, but can't be bothered to write the script for that.
06:56:38 <Bike> or similar things
06:56:51 <ais523> fizzie may have those stats to hand already
06:56:54 <Bike> pikhq: I think fizzie made some fancy-looking graphs.
06:56:56 <ais523> he likes doing those sorts of stats
06:57:03 <pikhq> Something like fetching the logs and grepping the logs to generate a histogram, but *eh*
06:57:22 <zzo38> SirCmpwn: Are you sure? Well, the same algorithm could be put into a computer, although possibly it would be too complicated to put into the computer, too. Even so, some things may be too large for the universe, and/or can have mathematical formulas that nobody has figured out yet.
06:57:42 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow%27s_impossibility_theorem#Infinitely_many_individuals
06:57:48 <Bike> Dammit. Dammit!
06:57:54 <SirCmpwn> zzo38: I think that the human mind is just a really, really, REALLY complicated program
06:58:05 <zzo38> Furthermore, if you want to ask if a computer can think, also ask, can a submarine swim?
06:58:26 <SirCmpwn> a submarine can swim as a proxy for a sentient being or an AI
06:58:35 <SirCmpwn> it's a vehicle, it doens't calculate
06:58:46 <ais523> zzo38: from my point of view, I'm basically 100% certain that it's possible for a computer to be sentient
06:58:54 <ais523> I'm not sure either way whether any currently existing computers are sentient
06:58:54 <Bike> I'm more and more convinced that zzo38 is Gary P. Rastov.
06:59:06 <Bike> kmc: ok i gotta admit i fully support the use of ultrafilters in social sciences
06:59:06 <SirCmpwn> I expect that there will be a human brain emulator within the century, zzo38
06:59:12 <zzo38> ais523: From my point of view, I don't know.
06:59:22 <Sgeo> I hope Norns aren't sentient
06:59:28 <ais523> so… kmc's link basically says that there are voting systems that don't allow tactical voting when infinitely many voters are involved, but they're noncomputable?
06:59:29 <Sgeo> If they are, I'm ... rather horrible
06:59:32 <Bike> So! Terminology bit here.
06:59:51 <zzo38> But I expect, everything is mathematics. So, even the universe is mathematics. But, not necessarily mathematics that has exactly one solution all the time; it can be no solution, multiple solutions, and can even be uncomputable.
06:59:57 <Bike> "sentient" means roughly "can feel sensations". Things like dolphins are dogs are sapient. You are probably talking about sapience.
07:00:05 <kmc> ais523: and they contain 'invisible dictators' which are?
07:00:15 <Bike> Sgeo: Just to clarify, you know I'm not serious about thinking you're a sociopath, right?
07:00:22 <Bike> er, *are sentient
07:00:31 <SirCmpwn> Bike: thanks for the correction
07:00:49 <ais523> Bike: wait, did you correct a veiled insult into an actual insult?
07:00:49 <Sgeo> Bike, somewhat, yes
07:00:54 <zzo38> Also, the author of a book can make any of the characters dead and/or illogical however they want, isn't it?
07:01:18 <Bike> I wouldn't have mentioned it except that the question for Sgeo is actually whether Norns are sentient, rather than sapient, since he's just worried about inflicting pain on them, not selling them insurance.
07:01:22 <ais523> zzo38: if you prove to someone that they don't exist, do they stop existing?
07:01:23 <Sgeo> Bike, although I know someone who is somewhat concerned about what I (and others) would do if sapient computer programs are created
07:01:34 <kmc> so if you ask "are infinitely large societies governed without tactical voting all dictatorships?" the answer depends on whether you're using classical or constructive logic?
07:01:38 <Sgeo> (or sentient?)
07:01:43 <Sgeo> He uses the word conscious.
07:01:54 <ais523> kmc: I hope the answer depends on the axiom of choice
07:01:56 <zzo38> ais523: If the proof is correct, they didn't exist at the time either, so they won't stop either.
07:01:56 <Bike> "conscious" is good for that yeah, since it's more common :P
07:01:58 <ais523> it might even be relevant!
07:02:26 <Bike> I'm pretty convinced that people have made robots that can feel hunger. It's an odd thing to think about.
07:02:33 <Sgeo> Norns do have brains that detect pain, and react to such
07:02:39 <zzo38> So either way they won't stop existing.
07:02:42 <Sgeo> Lemme upload a picture of the norn brain
07:02:44 <ais523> Sgeo: what's this meaning of "norn"?
07:02:56 <Bike> ais523: it's a thing in an alife game called Creatures.
07:03:15 <ais523> the only meaning I know offhand is a specific mythological figure who's in charge of valkyries
07:03:18 <Bike> Sgeo: I don't know much about Creatures but it doesn't seem like they're any more complicated than, like, nematodes.
07:03:49 <Sgeo> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16240872/Creatures/chichi_brain.PNG
07:04:11 <Bike> ais523: Basically they're virtual animals with such things as distinguishable "personalities", and C&C of their bodies through an artificial neural network. And they have some genetics.
07:04:17 <Sgeo> drive is things like hunger, pain, boredom
07:04:31 <Bike> Sgeo: How many neurons is this, out of curiosity?
07:04:37 <Bike> Nematodes have I think... 293?
07:04:40 <Sgeo> attention and decision are the outputs: What they're focusing on, and what the action is
07:04:44 <SirCmpwn> I went to the store and bought more
07:04:52 <ais523> btw, I think my own personal barrier for "when should something be considered sentient" is "the thing can communicate and add meaningfully to a discussion"
07:04:54 <SirCmpwn> because the fly is busted on this one
07:04:55 <Bike> Of course nematodal neurons are more complicated, but hey.
07:05:11 <ais523> this can in some cases include unborn children, and many animals
07:05:25 <ais523> SirCmpwn: you end up knowing more/different than if it hadn't contributed to the discussion
07:05:27 <Sgeo> comb is 40*13 = 520 I think (if I counted the verbs right)
07:05:45 <ais523> SirCmpwn: it's possible for unborn children to communicate, once they're negative-young enough, isn't it?
07:05:45 <Sgeo> Bike, also, the lobes and dendrites all have pieces of code in a weird language
07:05:49 <Bike> ah, nematodes have 302.
07:05:51 <Sgeo> That's not visible on there
07:05:53 <Bike> or rather c. elegans do.
07:05:57 <ais523> the mother can feel the inside of her womb
07:06:00 <SirCmpwn> ais523: it's barely possible for them to communicate *after* birth
07:06:11 <Sgeo> I would say the most important thing is the drive->comb dendrites
07:06:16 <Bike> Wow, you know. C. elegans have 1031 cells, and of those 302 are neurons. That's like, almost a third!
07:06:26 <SirCmpwn> babies come out bumbling, stupid, and crippled, and become intelligent over the course of several months
07:06:30 <ais523> SirCmpwn: they can communicate needing attemption versus not needing attention
07:06:54 <SirCmpwn> as in Bike's definition of "capable of sensation"?
07:06:57 <Sgeo> Since each comb neuron corresponds to a particular course of action to take
07:07:01 <ais523> SirCmpwn: as in my definition
07:07:04 <Sgeo> Like "eat seed"
07:07:07 <ais523> but I think pretty much everyone's
07:07:09 <pikhq> SirCmpwn: That's the generally-accepted notion of sentient actually.
07:07:15 <Sgeo> And drive corresponds to things like pain and hunger
07:07:19 <SirCmpwn> pikhq: indeed, but there was confusion earlier
07:07:24 <pikhq> SirCmpwn: Star Trek "sentient" is a weird mutation of the term.
07:07:32 <zzo38> Do you think, everything is mathematics, or do you think, everything is physics, or something else different?
07:07:33 <pikhq> Meaning basically "sapient".
07:07:42 * Bike is pretty jaded to "can computers think" sorts of arguments, if it's not obvious.
07:08:01 <Sgeo> I don't know what the response lobe does
07:08:04 <pikhq> Of course, in a lot of contexts they're practically interchangeable. A sentient computer and a sapient computer would both be rather shocking.
07:08:05 <Sgeo> I forgot about it :/
07:08:14 <pikhq> (though the sapient computer more so)
07:08:16 <ais523> zzo38: isn't it possible that mathematics is physics, and so everything is both mathematics and physics?
07:08:30 <Bike> Sgeo: Yeah, it definitely sounds like norns have a lot of their behavioral repetoire pre-baked, but that's to be expected.
07:08:35 <zzo38> ais523: I don't think so! I think physics is mathematics.
07:08:52 <SirCmpwn> sorry, the point I was making earlier is that babies are not special and I wouldn't even call them capable of intelligence until many months after birth
07:09:08 <SirCmpwn> "intelligence" here meaning coherent thought like you and I are capable of
07:09:20 <pikhq> SirCmpwn: So, "sapient".
07:09:27 <Sgeo> Bike, well, yes, but not as you'd might think. The drive->comb connections are random at first, and the dendrites wander based on reward/punishment
07:09:31 <zzo38> Like you and I... that is your self-centerism
07:09:42 <pikhq> Yes, babies take several months to become sapient.
07:09:44 <Sgeo> But they have "instincts" in their genomes that make them dream of, say, eating a seed and being rewarded for it
07:09:45 <ais523> zzo38: is it possible for physics to be mathematics, but mathematics to not be physics?
07:09:54 <Bike> Sgeo: I still haven't played Creatures despite how cool it seems. Weird, huh?
07:10:07 <zzo38> ais523: Well, not entirely. Mathematics is beyond physics.
07:10:16 <Sgeo> Bike, http://creaturesdockingstation.com/
07:10:17 <zzo38> Or, at least, that is what I mean.
07:10:33 <pikhq> Bike: Hey, I last played a videogame for very long in 2010 or so, so...
07:10:47 <Sgeo> Uh, the first screenshot on there isn't DS
07:10:49 <ais523> videogames can be good
07:10:54 <ais523> I last played a videogame a few hours ago
07:11:05 <Bike> Sgeo: yeah, i still have it open, i just haven't gotten around to it.
07:11:09 <ais523> in fact, one recent enough to have a copyright date of 2012
07:11:19 <zzo38> But have you played Super ASCII MZX Town a few minutes ago?
07:11:24 <pikhq> My queue just keeps growing and growing.
07:11:30 <ais523> you could probably have guessed that
07:11:30 <Sgeo> Don't bother with the registration thing though, I think the Warp is down anyway
07:11:37 <Sgeo> Just get the offline option
07:11:47 <ais523> pikhq: hmm… I don't keep a queue
07:11:49 <zzo38> Have you played any Famicom game with the copyright date 2013?
07:11:52 <ais523> rather I play what I feel like playing
07:12:01 <pikhq> ais523: It's metaphorical in this case.
07:12:02 <ais523> I'm not sure if I've played any game with the copyright date 2013
07:12:13 <ais523> I mean, I jump around between games a lot, and replay them often
07:12:14 <zzo38> Or else public domain; even if it is not copyright.
07:12:17 <zzo38> (Some are public domain)
07:12:32 <SirCmpwn> I would like to have a word with whoever designed scissor packaging that requires scissors to open
07:12:34 <pikhq> I've also got a giant queue of... every other form of media, really.
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07:12:49 <zzo38> SirCmpwn: Yes, I also want to complain to them too
07:12:56 <Bike> I have a big pile of books
07:12:57 <pikhq> (if there were a god, I'd call him a dick for even having "anhedonia" in the same universe as me)
07:13:16 <Bike> i also have a phone with an increasingly more irritating ebook reader
07:13:18 <ais523> Bike: so do I, but most of them I'm not intending to read again in the near future, or possibly at all
07:13:28 <Bike> that's just it i haven't read them
07:13:30 <Bike> they call for me...
07:13:46 <ais523> and I don't have an ebook reader that isn't also a general purpose computer
07:14:04 <Bike> They still make machines that aren't also general purpose computers?
07:14:08 <ais523> (all general purpose computers are ebook readers)
07:14:16 <ais523> Bike: sure, in fact they're becoming more common, not less
07:14:29 <ais523> basically because they would be general purpose computers but have artificial restrictions so that they aren't
07:15:10 <zzo38> That is why I make the computers which are very general purpose computers with no restrictions other than the security stuff that the user can always override anyways.
07:15:30 <ais523> or to put it another way, specific purpose computers made using general purpose computers
07:15:33 <zzo38> (And to include instructions in the book, tell you how to override, how to program it, how everything is working.)
07:16:02 <ais523> zzo38: yes, I'd be very surprised if a computer you made was locked down
07:17:00 <zzo38> To really ensure general purposes, to ensure it is made so that it can be made anyone can clone even not needing patents to do so (even if patented technology must be used, such that it can be made the same easily without it too), however, having a trademark license so that if someone makes the wrong clone, that they cannot use the same name.
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07:18:09 <zzo38> ais523: Well, there are some restrictions on it but you can easily remove them without causing problems with existing software, so it is not a problem.
07:18:47 <zzo38> (Such as a reprogrammable ROM chip is normally not reprogrammable unless you move the corresponding jumper, which is clearly labeled in the instruction book.)
07:21:12 <zzo38> And I mean really general purpose computer that you can even just turn on, and then type in the program codes and it will run (although you can also load the already existing programs too, even if they are already compiled).
07:21:34 <zzo38> Mostly PC BIOS computers don't have that anymore but they should make them such.
07:21:46 <Bike> The Aristocrats!
07:22:23 <zzo38> What about aristocrats?
07:23:39 <zzo38> What is the point of the Continue bit in the envelopes in AY8910? It seems to be the same shape as the ones that do continue than the ones tat don't (since you can also use the Hold bit).
07:23:52 <ais523> zzo38: Bike's referencing a famous joke pattern which ends up saying "the aristocrats" as a non sequitur
07:24:17 <ais523> the joke pattern's sufficiently famous that you can reference the joke pattern just by using the punchline, the rest of the joke is irrelevant
07:24:27 <ais523> although if you do it that way, it isn't actually funy
07:24:34 <Bike> zzo's version has way less rape, admittedly.
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07:26:51 <ais523> having fewer rapes sounds like a good thing, generally speaking
07:27:05 <ais523> unless something else bad increases to compensate, then it might or might not be a good thing
07:27:12 <madbr> zzo: I'm not sure hardware envelopes make sense on chips with that few gates :o
07:27:41 <Taneb> What if it's "rape" by the older definition of "seize" or "capture", ais523?
07:27:46 <zzo38> madbr: But they do have hardware envelopes. I don't know how many gates AY8910 has.
07:27:57 <Bike> In context it is not, taneb.
07:28:14 <ais523> Taneb: then it depends on what's being seized and captured, and using the more modern words would be helpful in order to reduce confusion and avoid bad connotations
07:28:16 <Taneb> Okay7 is like "Gr8" but not as good
07:28:39 <Bike> Okay with a salute
07:28:44 <pikhq> Yeah, fewer rapes seems like a generally good policy.
07:28:57 <ais523> hmm… today seems to be the ais523 "have I mentioned I'm lawful good yet" day
07:29:05 <ais523> 3 march, I must remember that
07:29:14 <HackEgo> Agent "Iä" Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving.
07:29:16 <Bike> "btw, rape? bad"
07:30:26 <Taneb> `run echo "Agent \"I\" Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good." > wisdom/ais523
07:30:34 <HackEgo> Agent "I" Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
07:30:51 <ais523> actually, I think I'm almost always lawful good, just more likely to point it out on the 3rd of March
07:30:53 <zzo38> What character encoding do you want to use?
07:31:05 <ais523> zzo38: utf-8 is a generally useful character encoding
07:31:08 <zzo38> In here is not 3rd of march, yet.
07:31:17 <ais523> Bike: ouch for reminding me that exists
07:31:17 <zzo38> UTF-EBCDIC is not ASCII so don't use that.
07:31:29 <zzo38> Use UTF-8 if you want to, though, or CP437, or whatever else.
07:31:34 <ais523> zzo38: there are a lot of encodings that aren't ASCII
07:31:48 <Bike> zzo38 likes supersets of ascii.
07:31:48 <shachaf> UTF-8 is, at least, compatible with ASCII
07:31:49 <madbr> what's cp435 again
07:31:58 <zzo38> So you are wrong CP437 is ASCII, and so is UTF-8.
07:32:03 <Bike> How about SHIFT-JIS?
07:32:09 <Bike> "good encoding"
07:32:12 <pikhq> madbr: CP437 is DOS.
07:32:26 <Bike> SHIFT probably isn't supposed to be in allcaps, but I feel loud.
07:32:27 <shachaf> zzo38: Oh, apparently there are multiple CP437s?
07:32:33 <pikhq> Namely, the character set used by DOS in the US.
07:32:38 <shachaf> I was thinking of the one that has 0x01 representing ☺ and all that.
07:32:43 <ais523> Bike: what about SHIFT-JIS, except you replace the shift codes with gambling games and add network transparency
07:32:46 <zzo38> shachaf: No, just one CP437 the others are other codepages.
07:32:48 <madbr> the common ones are utf8 win32 (\r\n), utf8 linux, latin1 win32, latin1 linux, and then shift jis and a couple of other popular asian encodings
07:32:55 <pikhq> ais523: Yeah, that's CP437.
07:32:56 <Bike> ais523: good encoding. w/o sacrequotes
07:32:57 <zzo38> Yes 0x01 is the happy face in CP437
07:33:20 <madbr> and by latin1 I mean codepage whatever (the one used in win32, not the one with the dumb extended control characters)
07:33:56 <madbr> it also has some freakish iso name
07:34:06 <zzo38> I use whatever encoding I need depending on the program being used, but is usually ASCII. Sometimes some parts of programs might use other encodings even though it is mostly ASCII, such as VGMCK which is ASCII except for GD3 tags which are UTF-8 and are converted into UTF-16.
07:34:07 <Taneb> madbr, Code page 437
07:34:15 <madbr> but everybody calls it latin-1 because, well, it's a zillion times more mnemotechnic
07:34:20 <pikhq> Shift-JIS is perhaps the worst encoding devised.
07:34:30 <shachaf> Don't call Windows-1252 Latin-1!
07:34:31 <ais523> pikhq: worse than the one I suggested just above?
07:34:38 <ais523> madbr: latin-1 is a different encoding
07:34:42 <shachaf> People who call things ANSI are evil.
07:34:44 <zzo38> Since UTF-16 is not ASCII, it uses UTF-8 so that you can still use ASCII, and UTF-8 is otherwise the closest thing to convert to UTF-16.
07:34:46 <ais523> latin-1 = iso-8859-1 ≠ windows-1252
07:34:49 <pikhq> ais523: Not worse than that.
07:34:50 <shachaf> (Things other than ANSI, that is.)
07:34:54 <Deewiant> ISO-8859-1 is latin1 is not Windows-1252 is not CP437
07:34:55 <madbr> ais: it's IBM's original version
07:34:56 <Bike> pikhq, it's probably just the most known weird country-specific encoding thing... eastern europe had a lot, didn't it?
07:34:59 <ais523> also windows calls windows-1252 ansi for no obvious reason
07:35:00 <madbr> ais: which nobody used
07:35:01 <pikhq> shachaf: "ANSI" is weirdo Windows-speak for "legacy charset".
07:35:19 <pikhq> shachaf: Likewise "Unicode" is weirdo Windows-speak for "UTF-16".
07:35:20 <ais523> Bike: they are helpfully numbered from latin-1 up to latin-15 or so
07:35:20 <zzo38> (Actually it also accepts CESU-8, as well as overlong encodings, but you don't have to use those if you don't want to.)
07:35:26 <Bike> ais523: beautiful
07:35:27 <ais523> pikhq: does it have a defined endianness?
07:35:31 <pikhq> Bike: It's also the worst.
07:35:37 <Bike> That's pretty worst.
07:35:41 <shachaf> pikhq: Well, sometimes Windows people mean "Unicode" by "Unicode".
07:35:45 <pikhq> Because Windows is only little-endian.
07:35:58 <madbr> everything's little endian
07:36:00 <Bike> Actually, I have no idea how Cyrillic was typed up. Or is typed up for that matter.
07:36:11 <Bike> What were they using on pirate C64s in the 80s?
07:36:28 <ais523> Bike: cyrillic has a comparable number of letters to latin, doesn't it?
07:36:33 <pikhq> Windows is little endian even on CPUs that are usually big endian.
07:36:37 <ais523> so probably just using ordinary keyboards except relabeled
07:36:47 <Bike> I meant the encoding, but yeah I see your point.
07:36:51 <Bike> Maybe China then...
07:37:04 <Bike> well, i already know how weird chinese input methods get
07:37:16 <madbr> pikhq: you mean on Alpha?
07:37:27 <zzo38> All the commands in the program are ASCII, and the comments can be whatever encodings you want (except ASCII control codes), so the program correctly follows the principle of extended ASCII.
07:37:31 <madbr> there's a mips version of windows?!?
07:38:19 <ais523> zzo38: what about identifiers?
07:38:35 <ais523> that's the main place where you might want to accept outside-ASCII characters in source code
07:38:37 <ais523> oh, and string constants
07:38:58 <madbr> actually I think most code is still stored as latin1
07:39:03 <ais523> (and character constants if you don't consider them a special case of string constants)
07:39:15 <ais523> madbr: most code is in ASCII, and thus can't be distinguished between latin-1 and UTF-8
07:39:20 <madbr> with windows cr-lf or just lf depending on the coder
07:39:20 <ais523> except when I write … in a comment out of habit
07:39:30 <ais523> and it depends more on the editor and OS than the coder
07:39:43 <Bike> I think I usually use utf-8 because i dump «spinäl t©p» sorts of things everywhere
07:39:49 <zzo38> ais523: Those things are not applicable to this program. Identifiers for macros are just one character and only ASCII, and string constants are only used in GD3 tags, which are UTF-16, so it accepts UTF-8 there and will convert them to UTF-16.
07:40:00 <pikhq> On Linux systems, stuff is usually UTF-8.
07:40:23 <pikhq> (to the point where I generally think you should just say "a string is in UTF-8. Period.")
07:40:32 <kmc> i missed a discussion of CP 437 :(
07:40:34 <pikhq> And on Windows, Microsoft is fucking crazy.
07:40:35 <zzo38> In other programs with string constants such as in C, you should allow any characters, and just encode the bytes as is. So, if it is UTF-8, then your program will work with UTF-8.
07:40:38 <madbr> also for console programs, windows gives you filenames etc in latin-1
07:40:48 <pikhq> madbr: Not quite. It's crazier.
07:40:52 <Bike> pikhq: bush hid the facts
07:40:52 <madbr> (well, codepage whatever but still)
07:40:54 <ais523> pikhq: actually isn't "take encoding from locale" the usual default? and aren't most locales latin-n by default but people tend to use the utf-8 versions nowadays?
07:40:55 <zzo38> pikhq: I use CP437 when working on Linux.
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07:41:25 <madbr> what's worse than cp437 is that there's a different version that windows sometimes uses
07:41:32 <pikhq> madbr: Windows has a very comprehensive scheme for working with arbitrary charsets. They *refuse* to extend it to handle UTF-8.
07:41:39 <madbr> which has no point except it screws up your DOS programs
07:41:43 <zzo38> Since the Linux console is only 256 character codes anyways, then Unicode is too much and is too complicated.
07:41:56 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
07:41:59 <zzo38> UTF-8 data can still be worked with though, in programs that are using UTF-8 data, but not in other programs, please.
07:42:02 <pikhq> madbr: The only way of using Unicode on Windows is to use their non-conformant wchar_t interfaces.
07:42:08 <ais523> hmm… the Linux console understands the code for "enter UTF-8 mode"
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07:42:13 <ais523> can it not render it once you've done that?
07:42:17 <pikhq> Along with their ultra-weird UTF-16 entry point.
07:42:27 <ais523> pikhq: and wchar_t isn't designed for utf-8
07:42:32 <pikhq> ais523: Almost all distros default to UTF-8 thought.
07:42:34 <ais523> it's designed for utf-32, really
07:42:41 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, but on Windows it's UTF-16.
07:42:48 <ais523> wide character strings are meant to be fixed-width
07:42:50 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, turn on UTF-8 but there is also the code to turn off the UTF-8.
07:42:53 <ais523> utf-8 is multibyte character strings, instead
07:43:05 <ais523> zzo38: that's so you don't end up stuck in utf-8 mode forever
07:43:08 <madbr> also case sensitivity is based on a large LUT
07:43:09 <pikhq> ais523: The trick is, char* strings on Windows cannot be UTF-8.
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07:43:19 <madbr> that gets updated depending on your windows version
07:43:26 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, so you can switch depending on what programs you are using, then.
07:43:27 <pikhq> The entire OS only does legacy charsets that way.
07:43:47 <madbr> so two files that are different can become the same if the unicode char gets added to the table
07:43:51 <ais523> really there should be a "utf8char" type
07:43:57 <zzo38> pikhq: That is, using the Windows API calls; using your own programs they can be whatever encoding you want to.
07:43:59 <pikhq> So, you have to rewrite your code to handle Unicode.
07:44:03 <ais523> that represents one byte of a multibyte encoding
07:44:10 <ais523> and you have to rewrite your code to handle Unicode /anyway/
07:44:17 <ais523> and even then it won't handle Turkish correctly
07:44:40 <madbr> tbh in the tool I'm working on I just disallow anything over >128
07:44:44 <zzo38> Usually I don't handle Unicode or anything since instead I will just use ASCII, and depending what it is, using UTF-8 might still work with it, and possibly other encodings too.
07:44:48 <Bike> what's wrong with turkish
07:44:55 <zzo38> madbr: What took are you working on?
07:44:56 <pikhq> Even though their API is set so the meaning of char* is determined by whatever charset is in use, and they actually have it ultra-mega-crazy to work with stuff like Shift-JIS.
07:45:06 <ais523> Bike: it has capitalization rules that are inconsistent with other languages
07:45:09 <Bike> oh that's a fun character
07:45:14 <pikhq> ais523: Yeah, but a lot of code will "just work" with UTF-8.
07:45:16 <madbr> bike : also dotted capital I
07:45:27 <pikhq> Especially on Windows, where people actually use Shift-JIS in char* strings.
07:45:42 <madbr> bike : essentially it uses dotless i to represent the same sound as japanese 'u'
07:45:45 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, depending what it is you might not have to do anything special, so you can use UTF-8 or whatever if you want to.
07:45:57 <ais523> pikhq: so what's the problem? NIH syndrome?
07:46:02 <Bike> madbr: and that character isn't in unicode?
07:46:04 <ais523> it seems like a weird thing to not support along with other encodings
07:46:06 <pikhq> ais523: I have not the foggiest clue.
07:46:10 <madbr> bike: no it's in unicode
07:46:21 <madbr> bike: but that totally screws up capitalization
07:46:30 <madbr> since the caps version of i isn't I anymore
07:46:39 <pikhq> But now, Windows dev communities are the most confused about how character encoding works.
07:46:47 <Bike> baking capitalization into unicode seems like a bad idea anyway
07:46:51 <pikhq> And especially Unicode.
07:46:53 <kmc> 'It is considered particularly ironic that Atatürk himself, in his lengthy speech to the new Parliament in 1927, used a style of Ottoman which sounded so alien to later listeners that it had to be "translated" three times into modern Turkish: first in 1963, again in 1986, and most recently in 1995'
07:47:11 <Bike> kmc: once for each coup AM I RIGHT FOLKS
07:47:11 <zzo38> Unicode is full of problems and too much complexity.
07:47:24 <madbr> bike: you have to, because the win32 file system is case sensitive
07:47:25 <ais523> btw, anyone know how that Cyrillic letter that looks like a backwards R is pronounced? I'm guessing neutral vowel, but could do with confirmation
07:47:38 <madbr> bike: so you have to process case
07:47:46 <Taneb> How worth it would it be to write an Apache Wave server in Haskell
07:47:49 <zzo38> Nevertheless simply allowing UTF-8 in some parts of the program just in order to convert to UTF-16 if the output format uses it, is not complicated.
07:47:54 <Bike> not worth anything
07:48:05 <madbr> ais523 : the one that's neutral vowel looks like bI
07:48:09 <pikhq> (I'd say Microsoft's failure to support UTF-8 is the single greatest reason for people thinking Unicode is a 16-bit encoding)
07:48:18 <ais523> how strong is the 'a'? I'm guessing short 'a', is it strong or is it reasonably neutral?
07:48:20 <Bike> I seem to remember a natural language that used capital letters in its orthography, but I can't remember...
07:48:21 <zzo38> That is why VGMCK accepts UTF-8 in GD3 tags.
07:48:32 <ais523> pikhq: that might well play into Microsoft's hands
07:48:36 <madbr> ais523 : russian doesn't have vowel length
07:48:41 <ais523> if they're attempting to have the web misencoded for some reason
07:48:44 <madbr> ais523 : or strong vs weak vowels
07:48:56 <ais523> so long a and short a are heard the same by a russian speaker?
07:49:07 <madbr> russian has only normal a
07:49:16 <zzo38> (Text macros in VGMCK are named by a single ASCII character; any bytes >= 128 are not acceptable.)
07:49:16 <pikhq> ais523: This is a stupid legacy decision that predates things like "broadband Internet".
07:49:20 <ais523> madbr: yeah but how does it correspond to English letters?
07:49:28 <ais523> pikhq: doens't predate dial-up
07:49:36 <Bike> uuuugh i'm groaning in sympathy for phonologists i know, guys
07:49:38 <zzo38> At least to me is reasonable like that.
07:49:40 <pikhq> ais523: They made this mistake way back in NT 3.1 days.
07:49:50 <pikhq> This actually predates commercial ISPs.
07:50:08 <ais523> I think BBSes were older, weren't they?
07:50:25 <ais523> but I don't really see how it matters
07:50:26 <pikhq> Yes, but they weren't Internet service providers.
07:50:30 <madbr> ais523 : there are two sets of vowels, they call them "hard" vs "soft"... essentially normal vs y+vowel
07:51:04 <ais523> madbr: yeah, basically my problem is, if I tried to pronounce Russian, would I be accidentally saying letters that didn't exist, or would what I said be perceived as a Russian letter whether it was English short a or English long a?
07:51:24 <Bike> phonemes. phonemes that don't exist.
07:52:13 <ais523> like, Japanese doesn't have a separate "l" and "r", but the letters are separate in English
07:52:22 <madbr> hard: А Э Ы О У = a e <neutral vowel> o u (a eh japanese-u o oo)
07:52:31 <pikhq> And in fact Japanese "r" is not the same vowel as either.
07:52:37 <Bike> isn't japanese "r" more like "d"
07:52:46 <Bike> american english "d" I guess
07:52:49 <pikhq> Bike: No, but it sounds similarish.
07:52:50 <Bike> god this is hard to talk about
07:53:04 <ais523> but Japanese people will hear the two english letters the same, and thus they can be used interchangeably by an English speaker attempting to speak Japanese
07:53:11 <ais523> they'll be understood equally well either way
07:53:12 <pikhq> Bike: ɾ is the IPA.
07:53:20 <Bike> back in high school I spent like an hour trying to pronounce "akira" japanesely once
07:53:32 <madbr> soft: Я Е И Ю (ya ye/yo yi yu) = "ya yeh/yo yee yoo"
07:53:35 * pikhq actually pronounces that sucker right
07:53:43 <Bike> i just want to talk about my animes!
07:53:47 <pikhq> Though my pitch accent is awful.
07:53:52 <madbr> in dictionaries they spell yo as Ё I think
07:53:57 <Bike> yeah i have no even idea on pitch accent
07:53:58 <Sgeo> My friend's mom (who is a lawyer) told me that I should just take the job (40k) without any negotiation or complaints, because I need a job on my resume
07:54:05 <zzo38> Bike: What animes?
07:54:09 <ais523> (my /actual/ problem is "I have some Cyrillic which I suspect is English words transliterated into Cyrillic, how do I attempt to deduce what the original English was?")
07:54:11 <Bike> i sort of understand how chinese pitch works, i think, but japanese aaaaagh what
07:54:15 <Bike> zzo38: the film, Akira.
07:54:21 <ais523> Sgeo: 40k is more than I'm making
07:54:35 <Sgeo> ais523, erm, in USD?
07:54:37 <pikhq> Bike: The trick with Japanese pitch accent is, it's not as firm as Chinese pitch at *all*.
07:54:38 <madbr> ais523 : read them and figure out how close they are to US?
07:54:48 <ais523> unless the dollar is really low right now
07:54:50 <Bike> pikhq: yeah, that probably doesn't help.
07:54:59 <ais523> I'm hardly paid anything, although hopefully that'll change soon
07:55:03 <pikhq> It's like English stress. Saying it wrong sounds wrong, *but* each accent has their own "right" way.
07:55:14 <ais523> pikhq: and saying it wrong is also entirely intelligible
07:55:15 <Bike> pikhq: it seems like with chinese pitch is just part of the phoneme but with japanese... yeah, like that.
07:55:33 <Taneb> I have a really odd accent, a lot of people can barely understand me when I start taking quickly
07:55:33 <Bike> well, nothing wrong with sounding like a robot for a while i guess
07:55:56 <Taneb> Perhaps because I drop loads of consonants so that "cone" and "coat" become almost homophones
07:56:10 <ais523> speaking foreign languages isn't the same thing as sounding indistinguishable from a native
07:56:25 <pikhq> ais523: That's the ideal state.
07:56:29 <madbr> if you're close enough, there's no ambiguity
07:56:33 <pikhq> It's just also damn near impossible to get. :P
07:56:42 <ais523> pikhq: it's past the point of return on investment
07:57:10 <madbr> even though you're saying one of the sounds wrong, it can't be another sound because it's not closer to the wrong sounds than to the right one
07:57:20 <madbr> like when you're using the wrong kind of "t"
07:57:34 <madbr> sounds wrong but you can't change a word into another one
07:57:38 <ais523> well there are several sounds in English that don't exist in specific other languages
07:57:44 <ais523> e.g. French doesn't have a "th"
07:57:52 <madbr> yeah "th" is the main one
07:57:53 <ais523> but that doesn't prevent native French speakers pronouncing English intelligibly
07:58:12 <ais523> actually there are three in English
07:58:14 <ais523> but two of them are quite similar
07:58:15 <madbr> 'th' is actually a fairly rare sound
07:58:30 <pikhq> ais523: Maybe in your accent.
07:58:30 <ais523> I can't remember the examples offhand
07:58:40 <madbr> 2 certaintly but not 34
07:58:44 <madbr> 2 certaintly but not 3
07:58:50 <ais523> pikhq: hmm… I have a surprisingly average accent, actually
07:58:54 <Bike> probably depends on accent
07:59:03 <ais523> one of my parents came from London, the other from Sheffield, and I live in Birmingham
07:59:11 <pikhq> ais523: I'm American. :P
07:59:23 <pikhq> We've actually had some phoneme mergers.
07:59:39 <madbr> the "rare" sounds english has are "th" and the distinction of tense vs lax vowels
07:59:41 <Bike> personally I have an accent pretty close to TV midwestern but apparently there are differences too subtle for me
07:59:44 <ais523> well London is pretty far south, and Sheffield is considered to be northerly unless you live in Hexham
07:59:58 <madbr> (aka long-tense-diphthongs vs short-lax-vowels
08:00:01 <pikhq> Yeah, mine is Midwestern-ish.
08:00:03 <ais523> (Hexham is further north than any sane person would live)
08:00:17 <pikhq> But then, I'm physically Midwestern-ish.
08:00:20 <ais523> (unless they were Scottish, or Finnish, and have even further north people to compare to)
08:00:36 <Taneb> Stupid southeners thinking Sheffield is north...
08:00:41 <madbr> ee/ih, ay/eh, ah/a, o/oh, oo/ooh, uh, er
08:00:54 <ais523> well it's north compared to Birmingham
08:01:02 <madbr> (the english version)
08:01:03 <ais523> I personally think of sheffield as being towards the south end of tnorth
08:01:13 <ais523> whereas london is towards the east end of south
08:01:16 <Taneb> It's further south than York!
08:01:17 <Bike> ha, ha, i'm using a non-rhotic accent!!!
08:01:19 <madbr> and the english version of "r" is rare (but "r" sounds in general are common)
08:01:27 <Taneb> And York's like 100 miles to the south of me!
08:01:31 <ais523> Taneb: apparently londoners think of /birmingham/ as north
08:01:45 <Taneb> ais523, that's why nobody likes London
08:01:50 * shachaf keeps misreading "York" as "New York".
08:01:52 <ais523> and possibly even oxford and milton keynes, but that would need verification
08:02:14 <shachaf> Not that I can think of any reason anyone would care about the old one.
08:02:29 <ais523> shViewth: the old one has existe dlonger
08:02:30 <madbr> also, v/w split isn't that common (a lot of languages have only 1 of these)
08:03:05 <ais523> w is arguably a form of u
08:03:09 <madbr> and the "zh" sound in stuff like pleasure, garage... isn't too common either
08:03:24 <madbr> ais523 : depends on the language
08:03:37 <ais523> shachaf: while typing that, my client also jumped to the top of the scrollback buffer
08:03:42 <madbr> ais523 : in some languages is pretty much a fast vowel yes
08:03:48 <Taneb> In Latin, u/v/w is one letter, as is i/j/y
08:03:54 <ais523> somehow, I cannot avoid underestimating Konversation's scope for bizarre typos
08:04:01 <madbr> ais523 : but in a LOT of languages, including english, w is a consonant really
08:04:07 <ais523> Taneb: y is a different letter in Greek loanwords
08:04:14 <madbr> and patterns with consonants
08:04:24 <ais523> madbr: w is the consonant form of u
08:04:35 <madbr> Taneb : I'm pretty sure y is another variant of u actually
08:04:37 <ais523> just like y is the consonant form of i
08:04:59 <ais523> f isn't a form of u, surely
08:04:59 <madbr> no y is greek upsilon
08:05:11 <madbr> f is from greek digamma
08:05:40 <madbr> which is phonecian waw
08:05:48 <Taneb> The symbol comes from digamma, but it's closer to phi nowadays.
08:05:58 <madbr> upsilon is also from phonecian waw
08:06:26 <ais523> well, phi became English ph
08:06:32 -!- Taneb has set topic: #esoteric welcomes its new prime minister, Ed "Brainfuck Derivative" Centipede | Newsflash: every single letter is 'U' | Channel is publicly logged. You can find the URL in the log..
08:06:35 <ais523> but ph and f are pronounced very similarly
08:06:41 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ph%C3%B6nizisch-5Sprachen.svg chart
08:06:45 <Taneb> oonbotti responds to topic changes?
08:06:46 <oonbotti> Taneb: Please consider whether you can answer your own question.
08:06:47 <madbr> so latin had f u (digamma which disappeared from greek, and upsilon basically)
08:06:59 <madbr> and then latin imported y for greek loanwords
08:07:06 <madbr> so it ended up with f u y
08:07:08 <Bike> Taneb: because it starts with a #. dumb huh
08:07:42 <ais523> that's a weird error response
08:08:22 <madbr> then in middle age they started making u pointy when starting words
08:08:39 <ais523> well in Roman times it was always pointy
08:08:59 <ais523> possibly because it was easier to engrave that way?
08:09:16 <madbr> roman only really had one u sound
08:09:28 <madbr> so it didn't make sense to have two letters
08:10:31 <madbr> but yeah in the middle age languages like french, italian and english had developed a separate v and j sound
08:11:02 <madbr> so people ran with the shape variation and turned them into distinct letters
08:12:17 <madbr> germans came up with a different solution to that problem
08:12:22 <madbr> which is why we now have w
08:12:59 <ais523> although english w != german w
08:14:18 <madbr> in english, w apparently was a replacement for wynn
08:15:46 <madbr> anyways, long story short, western european languages have lots of labial sounds
08:16:07 <madbr> which is why waw has been split into 5 different variants :D
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08:26:16 <Taneb> I would like to put my weight behind Underload as featured language
08:29:09 <ais523> Taneb: the problem is that elliott's no good at writing featured language blurbs
08:29:13 <ais523> and he won't let me write one for my own language
08:29:18 <ais523> so someone else has to
08:29:29 <Taneb> It's time to OPEN A TEXT EDITOR
08:30:37 <Taneb> ais523, was Underload inspired by Muriel?
08:36:02 <ais523> no, it was inspired by Overload
08:36:11 <ais523> which wasn't really inspired by anything
08:36:14 <Taneb> Underload is a stack-based esoteric programming language invented by ais523. It is effectively a functional language, as the only available form of flow control moves data from the data stack into the program. Due to its simplicity, among other factors, it has been useful in proving other languages (such as Thutu and FALSE) Turing-complete.
08:36:29 <ais523> how long is that compared to the existing blurbs?
08:36:57 <fizzie> pikhq: http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/people_summary.html has per-day number-of-messages/characters for individual people.
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08:37:11 <Taneb> Quite short, actually
08:37:17 <madbr> oh yeah I did a stack based functional language too back in the day
08:37:18 <fizzie> (Hasn't been updated in the last week or two, must do that.)
08:37:26 <Taneb> Malbolge's is 99 words
08:38:05 <Taneb> Although Malbolge's is the longest
08:38:33 <fizzie> (There's also all other kind of graphs there.)
08:38:41 <madbr> mine was called tabarnac
08:39:15 <Sgeo> ais523, did you ever decide if Trustfuck is a metacircular compiler?
08:39:37 <ais523> Taneb: I'm thinking in terms of visual width, rather than words
08:39:59 <Taneb> Yeah, it's quite short
08:41:23 <Sgeo> My head hurts from the mathematical stupidity
08:41:28 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/philosophy/comments/19jqan/is_pi_proof_of_continuous_space/c8ou5gj?context=3
08:41:47 <Taneb> My throat hurts for reasons I know not
08:42:01 <Sgeo> "A rational number is not necessarily an integer. 3.14 is rational, 3.14 recurring is not. A rational number is one that can be subjected to an expression and give a sane answer. Demonstration: 3.14/5.69 = 17.8666. Both sides of the equation have sane numbers, and are therefore rational."
08:42:19 <Taneb> The first sentence is okay
08:42:25 <Taneb> And the first clause of the second sentence
08:45:51 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/NBXA wordnet concurs that rational $\approx$ sane.
08:46:24 <fizzie> I like to call them demythologized numbers, though.
08:48:20 <fizzie> @tell Bike But that's not equivalent at ALL!
08:48:29 <fizzie> (I thought it needed more emphasis.)
08:49:37 <Sgeo> I just realized that the phrase "3.14 recurring" is ambiguous
08:49:48 <Sgeo> Is it 3.141414141414... or 3.1444444444444...
08:50:04 <Taneb> Or 3.14314314314314314314...
08:50:47 <shachaf> Taneb's option doesn't make any sense, though.
08:51:23 <Taneb> My option makes perfect sense when you remember that the person who said "3.14 recurring" is an idiot
08:51:57 <shachaf> 3.143.143.143.143.14... makes a lot more sense
08:52:09 <shachaf> (who's the idiot now, huh?)
08:55:28 <Taneb> In other news, there is evidence suggesting Snoop whatever animal he is now reads Homestuck
08:55:47 <fizzie> 3.141.3.141.3.141.3.14... maybe it goes back and forth.
08:56:29 <madbr> Taneb : as long as it's not mlp :D
08:57:08 <Taneb> madbr, nothing wrong with mlp. At least one person in this channel watches mlp.
09:00:33 <madbr> my brother watches mlp :D
09:00:50 <Taneb> Nothing wrong with Snoop Dogg either
09:00:51 <madbr> was saying it jokingly, I can't really criticize tbh
09:01:22 <madbr> there was this "smoke weed every day" meme not too long ago
09:01:30 <madbr> I think it's dead now though
09:01:34 <fizzie> "At least one person in this channel does X" != "nothing wrong with X". (In general, not just about the Window System.)
09:02:56 <Taneb> fizzie, those statements were only loosely related
09:03:08 <madbr> yeah I'd be the biggest hypocrite if I really tarred on mlp stuff
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09:05:55 <zzo38> There is the music in Famicompo with "smoke weed every day", I don't really like that one much.
09:07:42 <madbr> the one I made? :D
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09:09:53 <zzo38> Yes. I do like your other musics though.
09:10:23 <madbr> made a really nice song recentily -> http://madbrain.devzero.co.uk/Discohouse_Amargeddon.mp3
09:11:01 <kmc> SMOKE WEED EVERYDAY
09:11:20 <shachaf> It will never die in kmc's heart.
09:11:40 <kmc> isn't snoop dogg named snoop lion now
09:11:48 <shachaf> My flight leaves SFO at ~06:00 on Wednesday.
09:11:50 <madbr> yeah and I think he's doing reggae
09:11:55 <Taneb> His facebook page isn't
09:11:56 <kmc> just a true fact
09:12:04 <shachaf> Caltrain doesn't go there that early.
09:12:13 <shachaf> Perhaps the best thing to do would be to go the evening before.
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09:12:32 <kmc> seems like
09:12:49 <kmc> if you want to get to the airport at 04:30 or 05:00
09:12:55 <kmc> where are you going from SFO?
09:13:50 <Taneb> madbr, that's some pretty good music
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09:15:45 <madbr> taneb : do you compose too? :3
09:15:55 <madbr> I know some people in here do
09:16:01 <Taneb> I've got no musical talent
09:16:04 <Taneb> Not that I don't try
09:16:42 <zzo38> I sometimes music.
09:17:24 <zzo38> I did enter Famicompo Mini vol.9
09:18:19 <kmc> one time i went to the bucharest airport in the middle of the night and then slept on top of my bags until i could check in
09:18:22 <zzo38> I do write computer programs for dealing with music, such as VGMCK which is what I am working on now.
09:18:31 <zzo38> kmc: Is it permitted?
09:18:47 <shachaf> kmc: Evidently the universe permitted it to happen.
09:18:59 <madbr> zzo38 : right... I think... gregg does music too right?
09:19:00 <zzo38> Well, yes, the laws of physics permit.
09:19:16 <zzo38> That is not quite how I meant
09:19:32 <zzo38> Gregor? Yes, I think so.
09:20:00 <zzo38> I don't know if he has done it in Lilypond or whatever, I am not sure
09:20:19 <madbr> does vgmck let you use samples for instruments
09:20:23 <madbr> or is it just synthesis?
09:21:01 <zzo38> madbr: VGMCK lets you use the chips in the VGM format, so some chips let you use samples for instruments. Currently the only chip that does that that I have implemented in VGMCK is QSound, although there are others which I have just not implemented yet.
09:21:17 <madbr> how many channels does qsound have again
09:21:43 <madbr> you could probably do something close to the mp3 I linked to then
09:22:05 <madbr> though it has a bit of reverb added on and it has more like 32 channels
09:23:34 <zzo38> OPL4 has both FM and samples, and it has more channels, so that can be used too. In addition, any chips can be combined other than SN76489 with T6W28.
09:23:37 <madbr> goes up to 40 at times (counting "virtual channels")
09:24:05 <madbr> yeah opl4 is cheating too :D
09:24:20 <Sgeo> C# 4.0 has named parameters :)
09:24:25 <zzo38> In addition, most (but not all) chips can be doubled.
09:24:27 <Sgeo> Although it still has ref arguments :/
09:24:35 <madbr> is the 4op mode supported on opl4?
09:24:43 <shachaf> Sgeo: What has it named them?
09:25:49 <zzo38> VGMCK does not currently support OPL4 at all, but I intend to support all the VGM chips, so when it does support OPL4, it will support 4-op mode too.
09:26:01 <nortti> do you know any good tutorials for the so called lisp syntax assembly used in PARRY?
09:26:48 <Taneb> I know someone called Parry
09:27:11 <zzo38> madbr: Do you know the .VGM format? VGMCK compiles into VGM, so you will need a VGM player to play or convert it.
09:27:37 <madbr> only ever used it for... genesis playback I think
09:27:55 <madbr> since that's the platform that has games with interesting soundtracks anyways
09:28:04 <madbr> that and snes but snes has spc
09:28:53 <zzo38> Well, VGM has a lot of chips (although it does omit some of the NSF chips, but they may be included in later versions): http://www.smspower.org/Music/VGMFileFormat
09:29:28 <zzo38> VGMCK currently supports the following chips: SN76489, T6W28, YM2413, YM2612, YM3812, NES APU, GameBoy, HuC6280, Pokey, QSound.
09:29:43 <zzo38> I am currently working on adding AY8910.
09:30:53 <zzo38> Here is a list of programs which can be used to create VGM: http://vgm.mdscene.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=107
09:31:50 <madbr> so it lets you write for strange mixes of weird chips
09:32:11 <zzo38> (As far as I can tell, DefleMask allows to use only one chip at a time (from the documentation on their webpage), and I don't think XPMCK allows using more than one chip at a time either but I am not sure.)
09:32:37 <Taneb> Aww, now I'm writing music
09:33:00 <zzo38> madbr: Yes; VGMCK is meant to eventually implement all the VGM and VGM does allow using various mixes of chips.
09:33:26 <madbr> does it let you do stuff like vibratos or do you have to do those with macros like other mck things
09:33:57 <zzo38> madbr: You have to do those with macros, unless the chip supports hardware vibrato in which case you can use that.
09:36:13 <zzo38> If you want a tracker format for VGM, DefleMask is probably best (not open source, but available for Windows/Mac OS X/Linux), although it is not as powerful as VGMCK, but depending on what you are doing it might work. If you prefer MIDI editors, you can use that too and convert, but those do even less.
09:37:41 * madbr looks up deflemask
09:38:57 <madbr> hopefully it's less broken than TFM music maker/tracker :D
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09:42:12 <zzo38> TFM music maker is broken?
09:43:03 <madbr> it does everything wrong
09:43:39 <zzo38> Well, now I know, so if anyone asks, I can tell them.
09:51:40 <mroman_> If one'd extend a PDA with registers
09:52:06 <mroman_> Is there an amount of registers < Infinity to make it tc
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10:19:43 <ais523> mroman_: you need an infinite amount of storage in the registers
10:19:53 <ais523> although you can do that with a finite number of registers, if they're infinitely large registers
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10:31:40 <ais523> huh, Condorcet was a marquis
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11:16:51 <FreeFull> Does lambdabot do rewrite rules?
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12:22:49 <mroman_> Does C even support const structs?
12:24:51 <mroman_> const Foo bar = mkFoo(); is obviously not allowed.
12:27:53 <c00kiemon5ter> .x ? as in, struct foo f = { .x = .., .y = .., }; ?
12:30:37 <mroman_> f = {1,2}; should be legale C89 though.
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13:09:06 <Vorpal> mroman_, you can't declare the value of y in C89 for union { int x; float y; } though in that manner, due to the lack of the dot-syntax
13:09:07 <lambdabot> Vorpal: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:09:15 <lambdabot> oerjan said 14d 3h 46m 31s ago: <Vorpal> also my PS3 controller on my desk random came to life and blinked the 4 LEDS a couple of times <-- probably just the google cloud trying to print
13:09:24 <Vorpal> I got that days ago already
13:09:29 <Vorpal> why are you reminding me of this lambdabot?
13:09:34 <mroman_> Vorpal: My internet research tells me that I can use {foo,bar}; if used in the right order.
13:09:54 <Vorpal> mroman_, for a struct, yes obviously
13:09:59 <Vorpal> not for an union though
13:10:15 <Vorpal> anyway, C89 is obsolete, C99 and C11 are the currently used ones pretty much
13:10:31 <Vorpal> apart from MSVC there isn't much of importance that doesn't do C99 at least
13:11:40 <mroman_> C89 doesn't have function prototypes
13:12:05 <Vorpal> mroman_, I suggest using a more reliable source than what you are currently using
13:12:23 <mroman_> The first time wikipedia is completely wrong.
13:12:46 <Vorpal> there is your problem, using wikipedia as a source
13:17:29 <Vorpal> mroman_, are you trying to learn C?
13:18:58 <mroman_> I just don't know which versions of C I know :)
13:19:41 <mroman_> Which means that I know the C gcc compiles without any specific version options
13:19:54 <mroman_> I just don't know which features are available in what versions.
13:20:33 <Vorpal> I always use -std=c99 -D_POSIX_C_SOURCE=200112L
13:20:48 <Vorpal> should probably move to the next version of POSIX soon
13:20:54 <Vorpal> after all it was released in 2008
13:22:43 <mroman_> but for my compiler I decided to target C89
13:23:12 <Vorpal> you are writing a C compiler?
13:23:48 <olsner> C89 is great, it has no features and everything is broken
13:24:37 <mroman_> I meant I compile my language to C89.
13:24:40 <Vorpal> olsner, that is like all versions of C, more or less
13:25:20 <olsner> C99 is pretty sane, I think
13:25:27 <mroman_> C11 support is not far I assumed.
13:25:43 <mroman_> and some microsoft products apparentely don't even support C99 fully compliant.
13:26:14 <olsner> iirc, microsoft explicitly unsupports all of c99
13:26:20 <mroman_> so I figured C89'd be best so people can use any c89 compliant compiler for the backend
13:26:48 <olsner> (except if c99 accidentally standardized some microsoft extensions, I guess)
13:26:50 <Vorpal> <olsner> C99 is pretty sane, I think <-- really? Files but no directories? No threads? gets still around?
13:27:02 <Vorpal> I haven't really looked at C11 though
13:28:24 <olsner> I count threading and i/o as mostly outside the language (but threading less so, since the behavior of variables with threads is sort of important)
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13:44:20 <Vorpal> does anything support C11 yet?
13:45:29 <Phantom_Hoover> since when was tom hanks directing an american gods tv series
13:48:31 <Vorpal> mroman_, C11 is at least partially supported (according to wikipedia.....): GCC starting with version 4.6,[5] Clang starting with version 3.1,[6] and IBM XL C starting with version 12.1[7] support some features from C11.
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14:12:08 <Taneb> The vocab list that OCR publishes for A-level latin is inconsistent
14:12:32 <Taneb> Unless there's a big difference between "verb semi-dep" and "verb semi-dep."
14:12:50 <Taneb> And "verb 2 semi-dep" and "verb 2 semidep"
14:13:39 <Phantom_Hoover> semi-dep means it's half dep, semi-dep. means it's half deponent.
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14:23:12 <mroman_> The function `") {"' is applied to three arguments,
14:28:28 <elliott> "Demonstrating music tech is difficult, because it seems to be impossible to listen to demos without making aesthetic judgements. The below is not meant to be good music, but if you find yourself enjoying any of it, please think sad thoughts. If you find yourself reacting badly to the broken rhythms, try humming a favourite tune over the top."
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14:50:30 <mroman_> can ghci tell me which pattern does not exist?
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15:12:04 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/Gy729Qol
15:12:19 <mroman_> The "bootstrap" compiler works :)
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15:53:44 <mroman_> somehow github only show the first 54 lines o_O
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16:16:42 <FreeFull> Because most people who use Haskell do so on Linux
16:17:01 <elliott> for a start spj uses windows
16:17:13 <elliott> for a second i'm pretty sure haskell does the C normalisation thing whereby you get "\n" on any platform, though don't quote me on that
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16:36:01 <Lumpio-> I mean, I'm sorry to hear that
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16:37:07 <Bike> os/2 is the future
16:37:07 <lambdabot> Bike: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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17:07:00 <mroman_> I can compile a hello world program. Not much. It's something :)
17:10:51 <Sgeo> What language what system?
17:11:46 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/tmyU8LMO
17:12:46 <Sgeo> I don't recognize that language
17:13:05 <mroman_> It didn't exist two months ago :)
17:14:13 <mroman_> I'm creating a non-esoteric programming language for a change.
17:16:44 <mroman_> https://raw.github.com/FMNSSun/mopl/master/mopl/hw.c <- that's the output file
17:20:21 <mroman_> It's very simple actually.
17:20:32 <mroman_> Just some hacked together ~200 lines of Haskellcode
17:24:24 <mroman_> the ultimate goal is to write a mopl compiler in mopl
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19:07:59 <kmc> maybe Haskell should have a library like Python's ctypes
19:08:59 <kmc> dynamically loaded, dynamically typed FFI bindings
19:13:16 <zzo38> How does that work? Loading a .so or .dll file?
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19:15:06 <zzo38> How would dynamically typed FFI bindings work though?
19:16:16 <kmc> ctypes.CDLL('libc.so.6').printf("Hello, world!\n")
19:16:23 <kmc> that's how it works in Python
19:16:58 <kmc> well with the standard Haskell FFI, there's no check that the type you declared for a C function matches the type it was compiled with
19:17:05 <kmc> so we just move the not checking to runtime instead of compile time :)
19:17:07 <zzo38> O, OK, I suppose in a programming language such as Python (or other dynamically typed programming languages, such as JavaScript) would make sense like that.
19:17:42 <kmc> loadLibrary :: String -> IO Lib; invoke :: Lib -> String -> [CArgument] -> CResult
19:17:47 <zzo38> What I would like to have is dynamically loaded Haskell programs using a type such as: Typeable x => FilePath -> IO x
19:18:04 <kmc> 'plugins' is supposed to do that
19:18:07 <zzo38> kmc: Yes I suppose that could be the way.
19:18:19 <kmc> or hint or mueval or all these others that i can't keep track fo
19:18:41 <elliott> kmc: you could do an awful pritnf-style hack for nice syntax
19:18:44 <kmc> i think CArgument and CResult are sort of dual there
19:18:54 <elliott> however I don't see how this is really better than the existing FFI
19:18:59 <elliott> after all you can already import dlopen/dlsym and it works fine afaik
19:19:08 <elliott> I think something like that is done for objective-c bidnings
19:19:21 <kmc> CArgument is just a sum of all the C types, but CResult is a thing which, you tell it what type the result should be and it converts
19:19:33 <zzo38> With my idea basically the .so or .dll contains a Haskell value of type x, so it could be a record type, or it could be a IO action in which case you will want to join the result if you want to execute it right away.
19:19:44 <kmc> i find ctypes to be slightly more convenient than Haskell's FFI and i'm trying to figure out why
19:20:17 <kmc> it's probably not a big difference though
19:20:49 <elliott> well I think it is convenient in Python because C APIs are close to what you'd actually use day-to-day in Python :p
19:20:59 <elliott> (this is basically a complaint about python)
19:21:11 <zzo38> kmc: While the loadLibrary and invoke could possibly do it, it seems like example you gave is things that would work better in other programming languages such as Python, Perl, JavaScript, and so on.
19:21:33 <kmc> hm my mersenne twister in Python is only 4 times slower than the reference implementation
19:22:36 <kmc> elliott: i think it's just that you're probably doing some type-munging around the C call anyway, so doing that *and* declaring the type in a 'foreign import' declaration seems like boilerplate
19:23:04 <elliott> you could do some typeclass hackery like I said. it'd be slow runtime though :(
19:23:05 <zzo38> At least I think in JavaScript you could have it work with the same code as the example with Python, even.
19:23:13 <elliott> you might find those more convenient
19:23:17 <kmc> yeah i used hsc2hs
19:23:18 <kmc> it's all right
19:23:25 <kmc> hdis86 uses it
19:23:28 <elliott> c2hs is more elaborate fwiw
19:23:36 <kmc> i read ezyang's blog posts about it
19:23:55 <kmc> i wrote that library on fung wah bus
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19:31:18 <kmc> mersenne twister?
19:33:15 <Bike> mersenne twister shaped like a twister
19:34:00 <kmc> rhymes that blister like mersenne twister
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20:14:03 <oerjan> <ais523> theory: it is substantially easier for something to be awesome if it has no purpose other than awesomeness
20:14:09 <oerjan> <shachaf> ais523: I would imagine the opposite.
20:14:23 <oerjan> i submit this is one of those Great Truths
20:14:57 <Taneb> The two lines as a whole, of course
20:15:00 <oerjan> ...i see you don't know what a Great Truth is.
20:15:25 <oerjan> it's a truth such that its opposite is also a Great Truth
20:16:01 <elliott> i see oerjan is a dialetheist
20:16:26 <oerjan> ah Niels Bohr was the origin of that
20:16:48 <oerjan> (also a dane with a penchant for great truths)
20:18:15 <oerjan> hm i don't trust that quote site to have the correct wording...
20:18:30 * oerjan tries wikiquote instead
20:18:35 <AnotherTest> oerjan: Your definition of "Great Truth" sounds like a recursive definition without an edge condition
20:19:04 <oerjan> "Two sorts of truth: profound truths
recognized by the fact that the opposite is also a profound truth,
in contrast to trivialities where opposites are obviously absurd."
20:19:09 <Bike> it's an old quote
20:19:42 <oerjan> (that's the wikiquote version which actually is cited)
20:20:53 <zzo38> Yes I have seen that before
20:21:00 <AnotherTest> so do we also have an actual list of Great Truth?
20:21:16 <elliott> i'm not sure you're quite on the wavelength of the idea here
20:22:03 <oerjan> AnotherTest: i guess you need to take the corecursive interpretation (i.e. maximal possible set) in that case.
20:22:15 <oerjan> since the minimal one, by what you say, would be empty.
20:23:38 <zzo38> If any Great Truth are logical then you need to use different kinds of logic.
20:23:46 <Bike> youo're not supposed to have a list, it's just supposed to be an insult, what the hell
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20:24:31 <AnotherTest> zzo38: p <=> not p is definitely not true indeed
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20:25:17 <AnotherTest> can unknown be equivalent to not unknown even?
20:25:56 <Bike> i thought ¬u = u was a given of that logic
20:26:35 <oerjan> AnotherTest: no, not the universal set, it doesn't not include falsities or their opposite
20:27:03 <oerjan> (maybe that was still correct on account on being a great truth)
20:29:12 <oerjan> i think to understand great truths, you first have to understand that logic has its limitations.
20:29:37 <oerjan> and not just to understand that they exist, but to understand a particular one.
20:29:59 <oerjan> also how can i say that when i still haven't thought of an example.
20:30:00 <zzo38> At least I know that logic has limitations.
20:30:16 <AnotherTest> Isn't it like a great truth that great truths are /really/ great truths?
20:30:30 <zzo38> But there is different kind of logic, in order to make some things that works in some cases.
20:31:07 <oerjan> but since niels bohr was involved, probably also something quantum
20:31:08 <zzo38> But a kind of logic can be mathematically logical even if it doesn't apply to actual situations normally.
20:31:34 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, perhaps Zen koans would be called great truth by such definition, possibly.
20:31:43 <elliott> oerjan: you just need to use a paraconsistent logic
20:32:07 <Bike> what is the truth value of cutting off your disciple's arm
20:32:36 <zzo38> oerjan: Quantun? I guess so, although it still isn't applicable to measured (collapsed) states, I suppose, even though it is in general, possibly?
20:32:39 <nooga> das ist ein internationale skandal!
20:32:54 <zzo38> But only if you don't do it.
20:33:19 <oerjan> Bike: Mu. see: [Parachattavadhari 451, page 701]
20:33:52 <Bike> Is that gobbledygook that's supposed to look like Sanskrit?
20:34:25 <oerjan> wtf i keep being logged out of wikipedia
20:34:26 <zzo38> I do know one word in Sanskrit, at least.
20:34:37 <oerjan> maybe this is related to that oots issue
20:34:55 <zzo38> Does the cookie expire?
20:35:32 <oerjan> i have ticked the usual "remember for 180 days" mark
20:36:04 <zzo38> Did you try editing the cookie? I have found that for some webpages it won't work properly unless the cookie is edited.
20:36:17 <zzo38> Do you even know how to write Sanskrit?
20:37:15 <oerjan> i just have some vague idea about the phonology and maybe a handful of words.
20:37:27 <Bike> Wouldn't Zen be in Japanese or Chinese anyway
20:37:32 <oerjan> ok maybe not _that_ vague
20:37:53 <zzo38> "Ayanamsha" is Sanskrit words for amount of precession of equinoxes.
20:37:54 <oerjan> Bike: japanese, i think the chinese is slightly different
20:38:21 <oerjan> zzo38: didn't you mention that before, or was that another astronomy word
20:38:26 <Bike> like, gateless gate is in chinese isn't it
20:38:40 <zzo38> oerjan: I don't know. Probably I did.
20:38:46 <Taneb> There's one of them in Hexham
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20:39:03 <zzo38> But I don't know if any astronomers use such words unless they are Sanskrit or astrologers.
20:39:39 <Bike> How would an astronomer be Sanskrit?
20:40:29 <zzo38> I don't know; I am not Sanskrit.
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20:40:37 <oerjan> the subjects weren't different back then
20:40:42 <Bike> I mean, it's not an ethnicity
20:41:11 <zzo38> Bike: O, OK, then.
20:41:26 <zzo38> I mean, if they speak/write Sanskrit then they might use such words.
20:41:52 <Bike> That would be like doing astronomy in latin. (Which sounds amusing)
20:41:55 <oerjan> ok at least closing and reopening the browser didn't lose the login. maybe it was connected to how my hibernation image was broken...
20:42:21 <oerjan> or that it's somehow kept different for http and https
20:42:48 <zzo38> Latin is the language of Vatican.
20:43:12 <zzo38> There is still Vatican, even if there is currently no pope.
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20:46:17 <elliott> so why did vatican delete all benedict's tweets
20:46:36 <Bike> papal fallibility
20:47:53 <oerjan> archivandi in gloria aeternis
20:48:03 <zzo38> Maybe it is because it was the Vatican's account and not the pope's own account?
20:48:33 <elliott> imagining the pope having a personal twitter account now
20:48:42 <elliott> for all his non-catholic church related doings(???)
20:49:05 <kmc> read 'church related dongs'
20:49:30 <Bike> ratzinger's zingers, an account devoted entirely to cheesy insults
20:49:49 <zzo38> Even if he has a Twitter account which does have stuff about the Catholic Church, then, if it is his own account then they should not delete it. If it is belonging to the Vatican, then they have the right to delete it. Isn't it?
20:49:55 <elliott> kmc: insert predictable joke re: catholic church
20:51:07 <Bike> joke manipulator arm now online. please clear a 500m standard safety area around joke insertion slot. commencing insertion...
20:51:54 <zzo38> It is probably farther away than that from my computer.
20:52:09 <Bike> you're probably going to get a concussion then
20:54:31 <zzo38> Well, I don't know where it even is (or even whether or not you made such a thing), so it won't help anyways.
20:55:21 <elliott> tell that to your concussion
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20:57:33 <zzo38> Does any Famicom emulator be able to read the host system's battery function to set the FDS battery low bits?
21:00:33 <kmc> i should have followed up with "i guess that's more a tumblr thing"
21:00:44 <kmc> but i was already in the shower by the time I thought of this witty remark :/
21:02:50 <oerjan> `addquote <Bike> kmc: ok i gotta admit i fully support the use of ultrafilters in social sciences
21:03:00 <HackEgo> 978) <Bike> kmc: ok i gotta admit i fully support the use of ultrafilters in social sciences
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21:05:02 <elliott> wait where does the remark go in context
21:06:07 <doesthiswork> evolveing a program to to give me the nth digit of the thule-morse sequence when given the binary representation of n is very hard if I only allow it to use nand gates
21:06:09 <Vorpal> <elliott> for all his non-catholic church related doings(???) <-- uh, what does that consist of?
21:06:22 <Vorpal> elliott, ah, of course
21:07:17 <Vorpal> elliott, but more seriously is he known for having some side interests at all?
21:07:29 <Vorpal> Maybe, uh, catching butterflies or something+
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21:07:51 <Vorpal> surely he must, as a person, have some hobbies
21:09:27 <elliott> i don't think you quite understand how churches work
21:10:10 <Vorpal> elliott, that is probably true
21:13:08 * oerjan swats Taneb for converting `? ais523 from utf-8 to latin-1
21:13:26 <HackEgo> Agent "I" Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
21:14:00 <Sgeo> What would Chaotic Evil ais523 look like?
21:14:19 <Bike> kind of person who knocks over unattended cups i'd wager
21:15:18 <oerjan> hm my browser's autocomplete database has reset too
21:15:51 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:16:50 <oerjan> `run echo "Agent \"Iä\" Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good." > wisdom/ais523
21:18:01 <Vorpal> * oerjan swats Taneb for converting `? ais523 from utf-8 to latin-1 <-- why would he do such a crime
21:18:30 <oerjan> Vorpal: presumably by cutting and pasting in his irc client with a bad charset setting
21:18:48 <Vorpal> what a heinous crime indeed
21:19:02 <HackEgo> Agent "Iä" Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
21:19:44 <oerjan> <Vorpal> surely he must, as a person, have some hobbies <-- istr he plays the piano?
21:20:42 <Vorpal> could microblog on twitter about the piano
21:20:59 <oerjan> <Sgeo> What would Chaotic Evil ais523 look like? <-- he would actually _succeed_ in retroactively unevolving avian body covering, although at terrible cost.
21:21:39 <Vorpal> why specifically on the 3rd of March?
21:21:49 <Vorpal> hasn't ais been basically lawful good forever
21:22:05 <oerjan> 23:29:10 <ais523> hmm… today seems to be the ais523 "have I mentioned I'm lawful good yet" day
21:22:08 <oerjan> 23:29:17 <ais523> 3 march, I must remember that
21:22:26 <oerjan> Taneb _may_ have slightly misinterpreted.
21:23:03 <Sgeo> How would ais523 react if stuck in a Lawful Evil area?
21:23:09 <Vorpal> oerjan, yeah I remember we established his alignment long ago
21:23:11 <Sgeo> Where Lawful contradicts Good
21:23:37 <Vorpal> Sgeo, he would obviously not be ais any longer
21:23:41 <Bike> he sputters out and then starts shouting about diathelism
21:25:50 <Sgeo> http://chaospet.com/2007/11/29/62-dialetheism/
21:26:05 <Bike> yes i can't spell WHAT OF IT
21:26:26 <elliott> I believe god exists AND doesn't exist
21:26:30 <Sgeo> Bike, didn't even notice
21:26:51 <Bike> that comic is pretty sophistic but what else is new
21:27:03 <Sgeo> Although.... I guess that's why Google only turned up the comic
21:27:12 <Sgeo> Weird though, since the comic spelled it correctly
21:27:17 <Bike> i think graham priest is the usual go-to guy
21:27:27 <elliott> he's the high priest of dialatheism
21:27:49 <Sgeo> http://chaospet.com/2009/06/15/128-more-dialetheism/ (the link I originally saw) contains BIke's misspelling
21:27:50 <Bike> "In addition to his work in philosophy and logic, Priest practices Karate-do. He is 3rd Dan, International Karate-do Shobukai; 4th Dan, Shi’to Ryu, and an Australian National Kumite Referee and Kata Judge."
21:28:25 <Sgeo> I seriously thought that the whole diathelism thing was a reference to that comic.
21:28:37 <Bike> i've never seen that comic before and it looks bad
21:29:02 <Sgeo> And yourself for misspelling.
21:32:15 <Sgeo> Bluh. What's that really famous song, I think it's a Kraftwerk song, that's ohwoahohwoahoh
21:32:40 <Bike> oh yeah, and it goes like, doooOOOooooOOOOOoo?
21:32:57 <elliott> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080101093149AAhTBGF
21:32:59 <Bike> duh, duh duh duh duh, duh duh, duh duh duh duh duh duh DUH, duh DUH
21:33:05 <elliott> i googled: oh woah kraftwerk
21:33:27 <Bike> elliott: i refuse to believe that works
21:33:33 <Bike> sgeo listen to that song so you can say it's not it
21:33:40 <elliott> it links to several tracks in fact
21:33:43 <elliott> one of them is even by kraftwerk
21:34:31 <Sgeo> The beginning is unfamiliar, but I think it's the song
21:34:38 <Sgeo> Where TF did I get "kraftwerk" from?
21:34:41 <nooodl> `run (echo '#!/bin/sh'; echo 'tr A-Z U | tr a-z u') > bin/uuu; chmod a+x bin/uuu
21:34:53 <HackEgo> Uuuuuuu uu uuu uuuuuuuuuuuuu uuu uuu uuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuu uuuuuu uuu uuuuuuuuuu! Uuu uuuu uuuuuuuuuuu, uuuuu uuu uuu uuuu: uuuu://uuuuuuuu.uuu/uuuu/Uuuu_Uuuu. (Uuu uuu uuuuu uuuu uu uuuuuuuuu, uuu #uuuuuuuu uu uuu.uuu.uuu.)
21:34:58 <elliott> didnt you know every piece of electronic music is by kraftwerk
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21:35:37 <Taneb> Trivia: there are actually robots in the Illiad
21:35:45 <Sgeo> I think I only thought I knew Kraftwerk in relation to that song, which isn't actually a Kraftwerk song
21:35:51 <Bike> The ones on the island with the labyrinth?
21:36:05 <Sgeo> I don't actually hear the vocals in this version
21:36:08 <elliott> wir fahren fahren fahren auf der autobahn
21:36:48 <Sgeo> Bike, if it helps, this might be the wrong version of the basic concept of the song
21:36:57 <elliott> the wrong version of the basic concept of the song...
21:36:59 <Bike> no, it's too late
21:37:17 <elliott> anyway if it is "Kernkraft 400" i have a guess why you related it to kraftwerk
21:37:29 <elliott> that is what is is called on limewire
21:37:50 <Bike> why don't you listen to some REAL german electronica http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6zb8YpL5-w
21:38:17 <nooodl> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsorGbKwNlA#t=22s
21:38:34 <Sgeo> I don't hear any actual oh woah ing in here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSJQLCImV18
21:38:54 <Sgeo> Electronic sounds are doing the same melody that oh'ing should be
21:39:04 <elliott> maybe you listened to a choir singing it
21:39:21 <nooodl> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=?v=XPoiPZYbtnA#t=75s Sgeo
21:39:48 <Bike> elliott: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fwjZFLmrpE i have no idea why it's real but it is
21:39:53 <nooodl> bjornsuper 6 dagen geleden
21:39:53 <nooodl> 0 to 1.15 complet shit rest of the song annihilates
21:40:01 <nooodl> thanks for the review, bjornsuper
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21:40:53 <nooodl> oops i messed up that link
21:40:56 <nooodl> did you find it anyway
21:40:58 <elliott> Bike: is this from that album
21:41:05 <Sgeo> yes, I deleted feature=?
21:41:11 <Bike> yeah it's from that one album of that one thing you got it
21:41:19 <elliott> i think that is actually from an ep actually
21:41:42 <elliott> god dammit go faster browser
21:42:45 <Bike> also good: vocal guitar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Asi870JpI
21:42:54 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustica:_Alarm_Will_Sound_Performs_Aphex_Twin
21:43:13 <Bike> always laughing and laughing loud
21:43:18 <elliott> except i think i also meant something else
21:43:35 <elliott> whatever fuck this i'm going away for quarter of an hour, back when i don't hate everybody
21:43:38 <Bike> this sounds complicated elliott
21:43:57 <hagb4rd> http://miburl.com/3tYFIf darn.. i need a premium account at all costs
21:44:10 <oerjan> <elliott> fuck you <-- Bike was lying hth
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21:52:47 <oerjan> <fizzie> (I thought it needed more emphasis.) <-- O KAY
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21:57:31 <oerjan> > let stupid = 3 {-# RULES "stupid" stupid = 2 #-} in stupid
21:57:35 <oerjan> > let stupid = 3 {-# RULES "stupid" stupid = 2 #-} in stupid
21:57:37 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:16: parse error on input `{-# RULES'
21:59:06 <elliott> Bike: what sounds complicated.
21:59:26 <Bike> that one album of that one thing
22:00:05 <oerjan> > let stupid = 3; {-# RULES "stupid" stupid = 2 #-} in stupid
22:00:07 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:17: parse error on input `{-# RULES'
22:00:21 <oerjan> > let stupid = 3 in {-# RULES "stupid" stupid = 2 #-} stupid
22:00:22 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:19: parse error on input `{-# RULES'
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22:02:32 <oerjan> FreeFull: although i don't know if RULES work outside top level anywhere
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22:02:58 <elliott> Bike: some of their stuff is pretty impressive
22:03:24 <oerjan> @let stupid = 3; {-# RULES "stupid" stupid = 2 #-}
22:03:53 <Sgeo> I've heard of a song called "Guile's theme", but why does a dialect of Scheme have a theme?
22:04:07 <Bike> bad joke, retire it
22:04:12 <elliott> was that meant to be a joke..
22:04:36 <Sgeo> I did gather that there's a game or something called Guile, but I can't help but think of the Scheme dialect
22:04:48 <Bike> it's a character in a video game
22:05:02 <Bike> also it's a word? you know, "guile", like ability to trick people
22:05:30 <oerjan> <Vorpal> why are you reminding me of this lambdabot? <-- i think this may be "things reset for no sensible reason day". as well as ais523 lawful good day, of course.
22:05:34 <Sgeo> Yes, but words don't typically get theme songs either
22:06:02 <Bike> but sometimes... sometimes, more than one thing may be named after... /the same word/
22:06:19 -!- Arc_Koen has joined.
22:07:16 <Sgeo> Did I say anything along the lines of "The character must be named after the Scheme dialect!" or "The Scheme dialect must be named after the character!"/
22:07:27 -!- ais523 has joined.
22:07:43 <elliott> you know generally you don't have to have an argument for your joke to work :P
22:08:09 <oerjan> in fact it doesn't help.
22:08:50 <elliott> oerjan: in fact it didn't help.
22:09:34 <Bike> we've obtained rapid fire device
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22:10:40 <zzo38> How efficient would be a Verilog implementation of the INTERCAL select ~ operator and its (almost) inverse (setting the unused bits to zero)?
22:11:11 <ais523> zzo38: you could do it in one cycle, I don't know what the maximum clock speed would be
22:11:30 <ais523> probably you could get a very high clock speed if it was completely forwarded, but that might use a prohibitive amount of silicon
22:11:48 <ais523> (forwarding is sort-of the hardware equivalent of unrolling)
22:12:11 <ais523> I think you could probably do it in four to six stages and still fit into one clock cycle
22:14:57 <zzo38> (If you use both operations together, it acts like a bitwise AND; you can also do various other things with these operations together in different ways.)
22:16:51 <zzo38> You could also use them to encode and decode Morton numbers if you put -2/3 and -1/3 on the right operand.
22:20:55 <zzo38> I really think they would be useful for various things. How would it affect existing processor cores if such an instruction was added in the Verilog code?
22:21:35 <ais523> zzo38: the major change would be in the decoding logic, I think
22:21:46 <ais523> it's not significantly slower, or different, to an addition, from the point of view of implementation
22:22:39 * ais523 wonders if modern processors use single-cycle multipliers
22:22:57 <ais523> they exist but are really expensive in silicon
22:23:16 <ais523> however, I don't think the silicon use would be significant compared to, say, the L1 cache
22:24:20 <zzo38> Due to features like these, as well as other features such as BCD arithmetic, I would want a !asm metadata in LLVM which tells it that the result can be calculated using the specified assembly language instructions, even though there is a code or function or something calculating the same thing in the circumstances; this can be used for optimization.
22:27:44 <zzo38> ais523: I don't know if x86 does, but Amber uses Booth's multiplication and I don't know how many cycles it requires.
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22:29:05 <zzo38> O, I found it; it is 34 clock cycles to multiply.
22:29:06 <Fiora> isn't the number of cycles for a multiplier dependent on the depth of the circuit (versus, like, the transistor depth for a cycle?)
22:29:28 <ais523> Fiora: it depends on the number of registered stages in the circuit
22:29:28 <Bike> better recode that shit as shiftadds
22:29:48 <ais523> but that has a pretty strong correlation to the depth, because if your depth is too large compared to the number of stages, you have to slow down your clock speed to compensate
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22:29:55 <Fiora> ais523: yeah, that's what I meant, sorry
22:30:00 <Bike> he's going to keep that for a while isn't he
22:30:00 <ais523> and modern processors try to run at the highest clock speed they physically can
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22:30:15 <Fiora> just like, I figure a 64x64->128 1-cycle multiplier is probably not possible with the cycle depth required by like, an ivy bridge?
22:31:10 <ais523> Fiora: it is, there's a famous construction that shows that you can do any combinatorial circuit in one stage with just two levels of nand gates
22:31:39 <ais523> but you get a combinatorial explosion so it's not a useful one in practice, unless you can really spare the silicon and really need speed
22:31:52 <ais523> it's done for additions sometimes
22:32:33 <olsner> at which point does the size of the silicon start to limit what you can do? e.g. because of the speed of light being too low
22:32:49 <Fiora> that seems impossible...? like. two levels of nand gates means at most 4 bits of input
22:32:51 <ais523> olsner: we've hit that point already
22:33:00 <Fiora> and you can't figure out one bit of output in a 128-bit multiply from just 4 bits of input
22:33:04 <ais523> Fiora: very wide nand gates
22:33:16 <Fiora> what about actual 2-input gates <.<
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22:33:49 <ais523> but 3-input nand gates aren't particularly harder to build than 2-input nand gates, apart from having to try to connect three inputs to them
22:33:57 <ais523> routing overhead is one of the major problems with modern hardware design
22:33:58 <Fiora> that seems like the thing that actually matters? since like, more and more inputs means more delay doesn't it?
22:34:14 <Fiora> a 128-input nand gate seems pretty crazy XD
22:34:16 <ais523> not noticeably, apart from the routing problem
22:34:27 <ais523> fwiw, six inputs seems to be the current standard in FPGAs
22:34:40 <ais523> it used to be four at one point, and manufacturers are probably moving to higher numbers at the moment
22:35:51 <Fiora> The fastest multiplier I know is I think the ivy bridge multiplier
22:36:01 <zzo38> In order to save energy and to be compatible with programs requiring slower clock speeds, there could be I/O ports to adjust the clock speed to slow it down if it is wanted; does this work?
22:36:03 <Fiora> at least, like, in an actual hcip
22:36:15 <ais523> Fiora: what I know is that if I accidentally ask for a single-cycle 32-bit multiply when writing a Verilog or VHDL program, the synthesizer knows how to handle it
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22:36:31 <Fiora> though I still kinda wonder why they chose to allocate their gates like that but others didn't
22:36:43 <zzo38> How does the floating point coprocessors work in ARM?
22:37:53 <Fiora> ais523: does the synthesizer have, like, options that let you pick the sort of multiplier you want?
22:38:00 <Fiora> I guess in theory you could write your own...
22:38:07 <ais523> Fiora: the synthesizer implements what you write
22:38:15 <Fiora> I meant for like, how it implements a "*"
22:38:29 <ais523> yeah, * is single cycle, it has to be because there's no delay around it or the like
22:38:39 <ais523> for longer multiplies, you instantiate modules from elsewhere
22:38:56 <zzo38> Does Verilog even allow * in compiled codes?
22:39:01 <ais523> like, you get a 32-cycle multiply from your standard library
22:39:04 <ais523> zzo38: yes, but it doesn't allow /
22:39:12 <Fiora> I think so... we used * and stuff in our MIPS chip in class...
22:39:29 <ais523> if you want division, you need to get it from a library or implement it yourself
22:39:45 <Vorpal> <oerjan> <Vorpal> why are you reminding me of this lambdabot? <-- i think this may be "things reset for no sensible reason day". as well as ais523 lawful good day, of course. <-- it reset for no sensible reason?
22:39:50 <zzo38> Does it allow / in stuff other than compiled codes though? (such as in macros and constant expressions)
22:40:12 <ais523> zzo38: I don't know, I've never tried
22:40:19 <ais523> I think it allows exponentiation in macros and constant expressions
22:40:29 <ais523> and division is rather easier than exponentiation, so probably
22:41:33 <HackEgo> Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
22:41:36 <Vorpal> ais523, I like that one ^
22:42:22 <zzo38> If it was up to me, no arithmetic operations would be allowed in compiled codes; they would be allowed only in constant expressions, macros, selectors, and ROM data; and otherwise you have to specify your own algorithms in terms of bitwise.
22:45:05 <zzo38> I also would think their ought to be commands which means, that it would optionally use precompiled block in place of the specified block, which can be automatically selected based on the optimization and conditional compiler options, to ensure vendor-independent codes and still allow vendor-specific optimizations.
22:46:01 <zzo38> Does it have that?
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22:48:40 <Sgeo> elliott, where's your link about files?
22:48:55 <elliott> which thing..... which link
22:49:05 <Sgeo> I think the one that's anti-file
22:50:34 <zzo38> If the coprocessors are omitted from Amber core, instead making the cache and privilege areas to be hard-coded, will it make the clock speed faster?
22:50:45 <oerjan> <ais523> [...] with just two levels of nand gates <-- that's just disjunctive normal form, i think. (unless i got confused and it's conjunctive instead.)
22:51:01 <ais523> oerjan: yes, pretty much that
22:51:12 <ais523> right down to the not being able to remember which is which
22:55:26 <oerjan> <Vorpal> sounds buggy <-- it's happened before that lambdabot messages get reset like that. but even worse, i hear they recently got their entire quote database reset several years back.
22:55:37 <oerjan> (that wasn't today though.)
22:55:46 <HackEgo> 252) <fungot> elliott: there go my minutes of research!!
22:55:51 <Bike> wait wrong one
22:55:53 <lambdabot> hgolden says: pioneers are the ones with arrows in their backs. at least ours will be categorical arrows.
22:55:54 <elliott> Sgeo: perhaps http://catseye.tc/ehird/files-suck.html, which I should maybe get cpressey to edit with a note that I wrote it because I was annoyed at Unix and hence it's a lot more whiny than it needs to be, and doesn't fully reflect my current views
22:57:34 <hagb4rd> at least that's pretty straight
22:57:37 <Bike> tag systems fo lyfe
22:57:44 <elliott> also my historical account of them is a bit wrong -- e.g. I was unaware of how Multics did things at the time I wrote it
22:57:55 <elliott> but I still dislike filesystems
22:58:23 <shachaf> filesystems? more like thebestsystems
22:58:37 <elliott> wow I was annoying in 2010
22:58:47 <elliott> shachaf: more like vilesystems!!!
23:00:12 <shachaf> (THE JOKE IS GHC CODE IS FULL OF bad_stupid_theta)
23:00:49 <Bike> what the hell is theta
23:02:05 <shachaf> Bike: It's a class context, I think.
23:02:11 <shachaf> Or maybe just a context in general?
23:02:15 <shachaf> As in the thing to the left of =>
23:02:54 <ais523> btw, I had a really good esolang idea last sleep period
23:02:59 <ais523> but haven't worked out the details
23:03:05 <ais523> the basic idea is, the esolang is defined by an interpreter
23:03:14 <ais523> whenever you run the interpreter, it mutates the language it interprets slightly
23:03:32 <ais523> and always in such a way that every program you had ever successfully run through it would fail
23:03:44 <ais523> you have to try to infer what the current state of the language is from the error messages
23:05:12 <hagb4rd> true masochists leave out the error messages
23:08:39 <hagb4rd> how would be the mutation realized? kind of randomly?
23:10:15 <shachaf> hagb4rd: What do you get out of being in this channel?
23:11:44 <hagb4rd> sometimes someone says something interesting. or funny. or inspiring. but yea good question
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23:16:45 <hagb4rd> but it's sad i can't remember how it's been since it was you who make me laugh
23:18:43 <Phantom_Hoover> do you actually think you're saying something clever here
23:19:31 <Phantom_Hoover> because you radiate this kind of cargo cult profundity
23:20:13 <hagb4rd> i don't understand what you're saying
23:20:56 <Bike> "cargo cult profundity" probably is supposed to denote that you parrot profound things in a disjointed fashion divorced of their meaning
23:20:59 <Phantom_Hoover> you sort of know the words and general comportment of someone saying insightful things about the world around them
23:21:17 <Phantom_Hoover> you just don't actually have any actual insightful things to say about the world around you
23:21:28 <hagb4rd> aber sich ständig profilieren zu wollen, auch wenn man über leichen geht wäre nicht mein ding
23:21:53 <fungot> c00kiemon5ter: this rampart, shaped like a hen's egg, yet containing enough power to keep people away from those wild, haunted hills behind hoary and fnord arkham that all his forebears for forbidden cosmic secrets was a natural result of the action of water through more than seventeen years ago, when mans
23:21:56 <hagb4rd> insofern ist es mir nicht so wichtig dass ich hier clever scheine
23:21:58 <fungot> c00kiemon5ter: this sound, as complex and unplaceable as any of the fnord poor harley warren once had. it came from india while carter and i were not connected, wherefore our first knowledge of extraordinary conditions came from others. the farther he went, and when he resumed his voice was fnord music of deep viols and of crystalline spheres. we talked often in the night as he stood on that high marble terrace with the curious
23:22:12 <Phantom_Hoover> seguing into german for no good reason is not really proving otherwise, hagb4rd
23:22:19 <hagb4rd> aber vielleicht kann ich auch etwas lernen
23:22:38 <Phantom_Hoover> that word was much cooler back when i only vaguely knew about it
23:23:39 <shachaf> are segways still cool though
23:23:56 <oerjan> shachaf: i hear their coolness rolled off a cliff
23:24:18 <HackEgo> oerjan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:25:29 <oerjan> hagb4rd: you certainly don't have to be profound to be here. but i think what they're complaining about is that you make a lot of barely-in-context sentences that sound like you are _trying_ to be profound.
23:26:13 <shachaf> I never got any "trying to be profound" sense.
23:26:24 <hagb4rd> well.. i hope that's not my entire motivation
23:26:25 <shachaf> It's just that I see a lot of words with no point to them.
23:26:34 <shachaf> Then I look to the left and it says <hagb4rd>.
23:27:57 <oerjan> ok then mainly it's that barely-in-context part.
23:28:53 <oerjan> also i'm sure he's not the only one to go through a period of making such comments.
23:29:14 <hagb4rd> sorry. sometimes my brain makes weird associations. and i wonder about it myself
23:31:10 <oerjan> Jafet: Du machst Deutsch gutes, ja?
23:34:08 <Bike> I thought taneb was Hexhamish.
23:35:27 <hagb4rd> and to answer Phantom_Hoovers question. no! i don't think i'm THAT clever. unfortunatly i'm not a good mathematician and not the best programmer. yes, i like philosphy and i like to wonder. also you guys impressed me very much, and that's mostly the reason i came here and ..am still here
23:37:32 <hagb4rd> had to check this in my dictionary
23:38:16 <oerjan> (see i too make random comments)
23:47:40 <ais523> <mitsuhiko> (and yes, the workaround involves exhausting your pid space by forking until it wraps around and hits the value you're expecting)
23:47:48 <ais523> this reminds me of anarchy golf
23:48:18 <elliott> doesn't mitsuhiko play anagolf or something
23:48:22 <elliott> maybe I'm misremembering a name
23:49:22 <ais523> although that was a different context
23:50:38 <elliott> hmm, what was the context?
23:56:42 <ais523> elliott: working around a bug in Upstart
23:56:49 <ais523> also: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/19kjr5/fizzbuzz_revisited_using_rust/c8p452k
23:56:59 <ais523> someone's unfinished attempt to write FizzBuzz in Homespring
23:57:09 <ais523> I applaud them for trying (and in fact, for having heard of the language)
23:57:48 <ais523> at least, they didn't say it was Homespring, but it's obvious
23:58:38 <zzo38> I would find these select encode and decode operations to both be very useful in various C programs I write.
23:59:12 <zzo38> Would you find it useful?
00:02:26 <ais523> zzo38: it's rare that they come up
00:02:39 <ais523> also C already has a well-known select function that does something entirely different
00:02:42 <zzo38> I find it come up a lot, actually
00:02:42 <ais523> and it's not common enough to use ~ for it
00:02:48 <ais523> so you'd have to use a different name, like iselect
00:02:59 <zzo38> I was thinking I wanted to use ~< and ~> for those two operations
00:04:52 <FreeFull> I don't get all the fizzbuzzes
00:05:27 <Bike> It's like Hello World, except takes about half a second more thought.
00:06:08 <zzo38> ais523: Did you ever have anything that you would use it, though?
00:06:22 <ais523> zzo38: it would have been useful in writing C-INTERCAL
00:06:36 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, but that isn't what I meant.
00:06:52 <ais523> apart from that, only when writing an FFT, and even then, the version of bit-reverse in terms of select isn't as clear as the implementation in terms of more usual bitwise operators
00:07:34 <FreeFull> Why would you need anything more than putStrLn.unlines.map(\x->case(x)of(x`mod`15==0)->"FizzBuzz";(x`mod`3==0)->"Fizz";(x`mod`5==0)->"Buzz";otherwise->show(x))$[1..100]
00:08:14 <ais523> FreeFull: now can you translate that to Homespring?
00:08:24 <zzo38> ais523: Well, I have had things where I wanted to use, in various other programs too, such as in a Famicom pattern and nametable editor, and in a program to write music for the General Instrument AY-3-8910
00:08:25 <Bike> FreeFull: I'm afraid you're not qualified for this position.
00:08:38 <zzo38> And in a few other things too.
00:08:42 <ais523> zzo38: I've never tried writing any of those programs
00:08:45 <Sgeo> I do like how Template Haskell separates the concept of producing code from the concept of custom syntax
00:08:51 <oerjan> > map(\x->case(x)of(x`mod`15==0)->"FizzBuzz";(x`mod`3==0)->"Fizz";(x`mod`5==0)->"Buzz";otherwise->show(x))$[1..100]
00:08:53 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:19: Parse error in pattern: x `mod` 15
00:09:02 <oerjan> FreeFull: i thought that looked fishy
00:10:15 <ais523> writing a correct fizzbuzz first time without something to warn you about syntax errors is probably quite difficult
00:10:16 <zzo38> ais523: But I have found it useful in other things too, I mean
00:10:24 <FreeFull> oerjan: It'd be even more fishy in Homesprint
00:10:31 <elliott> ais523: hmm, now I kind of want to write a formally verified fizzbuzz
00:11:00 <Bike> uh you can't prove anything about imperative programs sorry
00:11:10 <elliott> Bike: um when did I say it would be imperative
00:11:19 <oerjan> > unwords[case(x`gcd`15)of 15->"FizzBuzz";3->"Fizz";5->"Buzz";_->show x|x<-[1..100]]
00:11:20 <lambdabot> "1 2 Fizz 4 Buzz Fizz 7 8 Fizz Buzz 11 Fizz 13 14 FizzBuzz 16 17 Fizz 19 Bu...
00:11:22 <ais523> `run perl -lpe 'for my $x (1..100) { print ($x % 15 == 0 ? "FizzBuzz" : $x % 5 == 0 ? "Buzz" : $x % 3 == 0 ? "Fizz" : $x); }'
00:11:22 * elliott has been trying to prove some things about imperative programs, in Coq.
00:11:30 <FreeFull> > map(\x->case()of_|(x`mod`15==0)->"FizzBuzz"|(x`mod`3==0)->"Fizz";|x`mod`5==0)->"Buzz"|otherwise->show(x))$[1..100]
00:11:31 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:18: parse error on input `|'
00:11:32 <ais523> let's see if I did it first time
00:11:41 <ais523> I may need to do it again because of HackEgo startup time
00:11:55 <ais523> `run perl -le 'for my $x (1..100) { print ($x % 15 == 0 ? "FizzBuzz" : $x % 5 == 0 ? "Buzz" : $x % 3 == 0 ? "Fizz" : $x); }'
00:11:56 <HackEgo> 1 \ 2 \ Fizz \ 4 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 7 \ 8 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 11 \ Fizz \ 13 \ 14 \ FizzBuzz \ 16 \ 17 \ Fizz \ 19 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 22 \ 23 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 26 \ Fizz \ 28 \ 29 \ FizzBuzz \ 31 \ 32 \ Fizz \ 34 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 37 \ 38 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 41 \ Fizz \ 43 \ 44 \ FizzBuzz \ 46 \ 47 \ Fizz \ 49 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 52 \ 53 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 56 \ Fizz \ 58 \
00:12:06 <ais523> does invoking the interpreter incorrectly count?
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00:12:10 <ais523> the program itself was right
00:12:41 <ais523> elliott: use game semantics!
00:13:37 <ais523> elliott: proving things about imperative programs
00:14:29 <FreeFull> oerjan: Too many spaces though
00:14:31 <elliott> ais523: unconvinced that would help :P
00:14:49 <ais523> elliott: it's one of the main applications that was found for it
00:15:02 <elliott> yes but what I'm doing is sort of weird
00:15:37 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: because someone tried and failed to write fizzbuzz in Homespring
00:15:44 <ais523> and I mentioned it here because here was the appropriate channel
00:15:53 <oerjan> FreeFull: um there's just one space
00:16:10 <oerjan> which i left in because removing it would add characters
00:17:45 <oerjan> hm does lambdabot have bang patterns
00:17:47 <Sgeo> It's totally reasonable to consider making a Haskell monad for producing code in another (crappy) language, right?
00:17:52 <oerjan> > unwords[case(x`gcd`15)of!15->"FizzBuzz";3->"Fizz";5->"Buzz";_->show x|x<-[1..100]]
00:17:54 <lambdabot> "1 2 Fizz 4 Buzz Fizz 7 8 Fizz Buzz 11 Fizz 13 14 FizzBuzz 16 17 Fizz 19 Bu...
00:18:24 <oerjan> FreeFull: it's not the operator, it's a strictness modifier on a pattern
00:18:43 <ais523> oerjan: is there any reason to strict the pattern? in order to leave no spaces in the program?
00:18:44 <oerjan> there's also a laziness modifier ~, but it wouldn't work there
00:18:49 <oerjan> FreeFull: to 15, actually
00:18:58 <oerjan> ais523: that was what FreeFull demanded :P
00:19:21 <oerjan> FreeFull: entirely redundant semantically there, of course
00:19:25 <ais523> also is there any difference in evaluation order between stricting and not stricting that pattern?
00:19:32 <ais523> clearly it produces the same result
00:19:35 <oerjan> ais523: not in that case, no
00:19:43 <oerjan> case of is strict by default
00:19:44 <ais523> yeah, I meant in that case
00:19:49 <oerjan> let is lazy by default
00:20:00 <kmc> itt fizzbuzz
00:20:20 <ais523> well the original /original/ article was about demonstrating how pattern matching works by giving fizzbuzz as an example
00:20:25 <oerjan> ais523: adding a lazy ~ modifier _would_ break it.
00:20:25 <ais523> so we've sort-of gone full circle
00:20:36 <oerjan> > unwords[case(x`gcd`15)of~15->"FizzBuzz";3->"Fizz";5->"Buzz";_->show x|x<-[1..100]]
00:20:37 <lambdabot> *Exception: <interactive>:3:5-10: Non-exhaustive patterns in pattern binding
00:20:38 <ais523> elliott: original article
00:20:53 <ais523> elliott: I linked the channel to an unfinished attempt at FizzBuzz in Homespring
00:21:00 <ais523> which was written in a comment to a Reddit post
00:21:27 <ais523> and Homespring, which has nothing even remotely resembling arithmetic, is a pretty hard language to write FizzBuzzes in
00:21:29 <oerjan> i thought that should give a list of FizzBuzz only, but not actually err out
00:21:58 <ais523> how do you get non-exhaustive patterns when one of them is _?
00:21:59 <oerjan> because ~15 means "don't actually check the pattern until a variable in it is evaluated" and there is no variable in it
00:22:02 <elliott> > unwords [case x `gcd` 15 of ~15 -> "FizzBuzz" | x <- [1..100]]
00:22:04 <lambdabot> "FizzBuzz FizzBuzz FizzBuzz FizzBuzz FizzBuzz FizzBuzz FizzBuzz FizzBuzz Fi...
00:22:13 <elliott> maybe your extra cases are doing weird things.
00:22:21 <elliott> i.e. the ~15 just becomes _irrefutable_
00:22:32 <elliott> > unwords [case x `gcd` 15 of ~15 -> "FizzBuzz"; _ -> "hello" | x <- [1..100]]
00:22:34 <lambdabot> mueval-core: UnknownError "GHC returned a result but said: [GhcError {errMs...
00:22:57 <Bike> i want to see the rest of the error!
00:23:04 <oerjan> elliott: i think we've found a bug in ghc :P
00:23:35 <elliott> i don't get it locally (7.6.2)
00:24:50 <Sgeo> No error here http://ideone.com/JRGZGo
00:25:13 <ais523> > unwords [case 14 of ~15 -> "a", _ -> "b"]
00:25:14 <lambdabot> Pattern syntax in expression context: _ -> "b"
00:25:31 <ais523> > unwords [case 14 of ~15 -> "a"; _ -> "b"]
00:25:33 <lambdabot> mueval-core: UnknownError "GHC returned a result but said: [GhcError {errMs...
00:25:34 <Sgeo> ais523, you put , instead of ;
00:25:44 <Sgeo> lambdabot/hint bug I assume?
00:25:48 <ais523> > case 1 of ~2 -> 2; _ -> 1
00:25:50 <lambdabot> mueval-core: UnknownError "GHC returned a result but said: [GhcError {errMs...
00:25:57 <ais523> there we go, I guess that's a minimal test case
00:25:59 <Bike> wait is that like four nested errors
00:26:17 <ais523> Bike: only three nested errors are visible there, but there might be more
00:26:41 <Bike> i mean it's UnknownError, said, GhcError, errMs[g]
00:26:44 <Sgeo> <lambdabot> mueval-core: UnknownError "GHC returned a result but said: [GhcError {errMsg = \"<interactive>:3:1:\\n Warning: Pattern match(es) are overlapped\\n In a case alternative: _ -> ...\"}
00:26:45 <Sgeo> <lambdabot> ]"
00:26:45 <ais523> Prelude> case 1 of ~2 -> 2; _ -> 1
00:26:57 <ais523> my ghci gave the same warning, and returned 2
00:27:27 <ais523> someone who knows more Haskell than me will need to explain whether the fault is in my understanding of Haskell, or of ghc's
00:27:34 <ais523> (I'm guessing it's mine)
00:27:40 <elliott> that is the correct result
00:27:44 <elliott> ~ makes the pattern irrefutable
00:27:55 <ais523> thus it forces the 1 to match 2?
00:28:00 <elliott> ais523: it blithely assumes it does
00:28:09 <elliott> consider also case undefined of ~(x,y) -> "hello" ++ show x ++ show y
00:28:09 <ais523> and then because the internals of the 2 aren't used anywhere
00:28:20 <ais523> it doesn't notice anything is wrong
00:28:23 <elliott> or fix (\ ~(x:xs) -> 1:x:xs)
00:28:28 <elliott> (which would be too strict without the ~)
00:28:36 <elliott> (since, what if it's []? it'd want to give an error)
00:28:55 <ais523> right, this makes sense
00:29:21 <oerjan> oh wait that line still has a space in it
00:29:32 <Bike> hey you all are nerds right? what's a reader for android that'll let me read public domain text files without pausing to redownload everything every two minutes
00:29:37 <oerjan> > unwords[case(x`gcd`15)of!15->"FizzBuzz";3->"Fizz";5->"Buzz";_->show$x|x<-[1..100]]
00:29:38 <lambdabot> "1 2 Fizz 4 Buzz Fizz 7 8 Fizz Buzz 11 Fizz 13 14 FizzBuzz 16 17 Fizz 19 Bu...
00:29:48 <Bike> like how hard can it be to present text to me
00:29:48 <elliott> Bike: that problem sounds suspiciously practical
00:29:56 <Bike> it's horribly practical ;_;
00:30:04 <ais523> you could… write your own?
00:30:14 <ais523> I don't know of one offhand, not owning an android phone
00:30:35 <FreeFull> oerjan: Might as well use unlines
00:30:57 <oerjan> > unlines[case(x`gcd`15)of!15->"FizzBuzz";3->"Fizz";5->"Buzz";_->show$x|x<-[1..100]]
00:30:58 <lambdabot> "1\n2\nFizz\n4\nBuzz\nFizz\n7\n8\nFizz\nBuzz\n11\nFizz\n13\n14\nFizzBuzz\n1...
00:31:08 <oerjan> it's not immensely pretty
00:31:13 <oerjan> > var$unlines[case(x`gcd`15)of!15->"FizzBuzz";3->"Fizz";5->"Buzz";_->show$x|x<-[1..100]]
00:32:29 <oerjan> it's a nice trick for unquoting a string lambdabot prints
00:33:51 <ais523> var is only used because of its show method, right?
00:34:16 <ais523> > var $ ulines["foo","`echo hi"]
00:34:21 <ais523> > var $ unlines["foo","`echo hi"]
00:34:22 <lambdabot> mueval-core: <stdout>: hPutChar: invalid argument (invalid character)
00:34:35 <ais523> FreeFull: lambdabot's Unicode support is buggy
00:34:43 <oerjan> ais523: i think you got a race condition
00:34:45 <Sgeo> > var . take 100 $ repeat '\n'
00:34:47 <ais523> > var $ unlines["foo","`echo hi"]
00:34:57 <ais523> oh, it remembered the leading space that time
00:35:23 <oerjan> it always does, it just has two on the first one
00:36:09 <lambdabot> mueval-core: <stdout>: hPutChar: invalid argument (invalid character)
00:37:23 <lambdabot> mueval-core: <stdout>: hPutChar: invalid argument (invalid character)
00:37:36 <oerjan> it seems like it only allows ASCII...
00:37:50 <oerjan> or possibly things get double encoded
00:46:15 <zzo38> Will it work in GCC for one module to specify that a type does not alias while in another module the same type does alias?
00:46:56 <zzo38> Furthermore, does it work in LLVM?
00:49:24 <oerjan> i think someone mentioned segways http://www.dagbladet.no/tegneserie/kellermannen/
00:52:06 <zzo38> Will structures alias each other if one has an anonymous member having the type of the other structure as its first element?
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01:24:52 <hagb4rd> <shachaf>It's just that I see a lot of words with no point to them. Then I look to the left and it says <hagb4rd>. <-- i suggest reading from left to right would at least allow you break after 'hagb4rd' and not to waste your time :p
01:26:06 <shachaf> See, there's a useful suggestion.
01:31:02 <Phantom_Hoover> not if you're using a client with decent justification
01:31:33 <hagb4rd> Phantom_Hoover: do you have a hihlight on hagb4rd?
01:32:30 <Phantom_Hoover> no, hagb4rd, i just happened to check the channel 5 minutes after that exchange and half an hour after anything worthwhile was said
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01:47:10 <Sgeo> So nervous about tomorrow
01:47:18 <Sgeo> Still sad about that other place though
01:47:29 <Sgeo> If I screwed up with them, how can I avoid screwing up with Ipreo?
01:47:49 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe you could not screw up the thing you screwed up before
01:48:03 <Sgeo> I don't know exactly what I screwed up, though.
01:50:07 <Sgeo> Maybe agreeing to send one of my worst pieces of code?
01:51:06 <Sgeo> Which we barely talked about on the phone -- after a lengthy discussion about a piece of code which they suddenly decided was too long ago to look at.
01:53:08 <elliott> maybe they just chose someone else over you
01:54:39 <hagb4rd> Sgeo: you didn't send them a piece of esolang code, did you?
01:55:04 <Sgeo> I did not, unless you consider Tcl to be an esolang.
01:55:26 <Sgeo> But sending Tcl to a company that likes functional programming -> bad idea?
01:55:28 <Sgeo> hagb4rd, thanks
01:55:52 <Bike> why didn't you just send some häskéll
01:56:36 <Sgeo> That wasn't what they asked for. I don't think I have any Haskell stuff listed on my resume. And the one project that I _could_ reasonably send that I did in Haskell seems a bit ... awkward to mention to potential employers
01:56:44 <Sgeo> (It was a thing to attempt to manage speed dating things)
01:56:59 <Bike> are you, like, victorian
02:01:56 <kmc> just make it about 'speed interviews' instead
02:02:22 <Sgeo> I don't think that would quite work
02:04:06 <hagb4rd> try to ask many questions, with an atitude of "what do you have to offer, so i'd like to work for you"
02:05:26 <kmc> Sgeo: close enough?
02:08:23 <Sgeo> It took as input number of straight/bi/gay men and women, and tried to match them up for each round
02:09:25 <Bike> that sounds pretty generalizable
02:10:14 <Sgeo> My algorithm sucked
02:10:47 <Sgeo> Yes. But the algorithm emits non-ideal results
02:11:08 <hagb4rd> like matching bi on gay? or what?
02:11:28 <Sgeo> Say 3 straight men and 3 straight women. First round: m1-f1 m2-f2 m3-f3. Second round: m1-f3 m3-f1 no-match...
02:11:45 <Sgeo> It doesn't manage to minimize people sitting out or number of rounds
02:12:15 <Sgeo> I made the algorithm much uglier in attempts to at least minimize the pain
02:12:38 <pikhq> Yeah, what are you, Victorian?
02:12:51 <Phantom_Hoover> strikes me as an obvious "well here's a vaguely real-world application" thing
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02:22:52 <hagb4rd> for a "straight situation" you could have just "shift" men OR women to the next table
02:23:16 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo
02:23:31 <Sgeo> hagb4rd, correct. But it needs to generalize to mixed situations
02:23:44 <Sgeo> There's probably a smarter way to handle it than brute-forcing
02:24:01 <Sgeo> oerjan, this one is 877.
02:24:02 <hagb4rd> yea, thinking of that it's not THAT trivial
02:24:39 <hagb4rd> at least if we don't want to discriminate the dedrophiles
02:25:18 <oerjan> darn, my cache is _still_ stuck despite losing my visited links marking...
02:25:33 <Sgeo> Any case where there are no bisexuals is trivial
02:26:11 <Sgeo> oerjan, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html hth
02:26:17 <Bike> you should rewrite this as a graph coloring problem.
02:27:31 <Sgeo> I don't know graph theory.
02:28:05 <hagb4rd> or better: graph coloring solution :p
02:28:56 <hagb4rd> selling solutions is easier than selling problems
02:29:08 <Bike> It's pretty easy. You have some dots and some lines and you can look up the answer becaue it was probably worked out decades ago.
02:31:23 <hagb4rd> so the question ist what have graphs in common with dots and lines
02:31:59 <Bike> They're made out of dots and lines! Or in "the lingo", "nodes" or "vertices" and "edges".
02:32:02 <Bike> Did I just blow your mind?
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03:06:23 <Sgeo> Template Haskell Sgeo?
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03:07:11 <shachaf> Bike: why are they called "edges"
03:07:32 <Jafet> It has an edge to it
03:07:51 <Bike> shachaf: euler's "bridges" never really caught on
03:08:28 <Bike> They tried that for a while, but then the geometers came around with bats.
03:08:50 <Jafet> Lines aren't abstract enough.
03:09:47 <hagb4rd> oh they are: the shortest conjuction between two points. but they don't feel comfortable with language anyone could understand
03:10:08 <hagb4rd> it just wouldn't feel right
03:10:21 <Bike> Well, in graph theory edges don't usually have geometric length in the same way as uh, lines, do.
03:10:35 <Sgeo> Wouldn't each edge have length 1?
03:10:37 <Bike> you don't need metrics or nuthin.
03:11:20 <Jafet> What about topological geometry guys
03:11:21 <Sgeo> Each edge is 1 edge in length.
03:11:55 <Sgeo> a and b are 1 edge from eachother. The distance between a and c is 2 edges.
03:12:09 <Bike> each edge is one edge in length. that's pretty deep.
03:12:25 <Bike> ...didn't think that one through!
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03:13:04 <Jafet> Graphs aren't easy.
03:13:16 <oerjan> just convert it to a monoid
03:15:06 <Bike> Oh, graphs actually do form metric spaces. Oopsie.
03:15:34 <Bike> Thanks, box drawing characters.
03:15:52 <Bike> Anyway then you'd usually say all of a b and c are one away from one another.
03:15:56 <hagb4rd> is that comparable with algorithms like A* ..in which an edge still can have a different value than?
03:15:57 <Jafet> graph { a--b; b--c; a--c; }
03:16:02 <Bike> hagb4rd: Weights.
03:16:20 <Jafet> Why are they weights and not masses
03:16:38 <Sgeo> Because <insert church pun here>
03:16:44 <Jafet> (not to mention cumbersome)
03:16:49 <shachaf> Jafet does not understand the gravity of the situation
03:17:14 <Bike> and yes, A* is a pathfinding algorithm for graphs of course.
03:17:52 <Jafet> That's a heavy thought to ponder.
03:18:07 <shachaf> @brain are you pondering what Jafet is pondering?
03:18:08 <lambdabot> Well, I think so, Brain, but do I really need two tongues?
03:18:15 <hagb4rd> yea.. a good practical example is the shortest way in lenth != the sortest time you need to go
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03:18:33 <hagb4rd> so weight is more general than length
03:19:46 <hagb4rd> every edge can have a different weight.. at least the relations stay the same..right?
03:19:53 <Bike> what relations
03:21:54 <hagb4rd> still i don't see clear how exactly that would solving the speed dating problem (which doesn't mean it would not)
03:22:47 <Bike> because you could reframe it easily as graphshit and then use some known algorithm.
03:34:34 <kmc> grapeshot theory
03:35:27 <Jafet> A whiff of graphshit
03:36:04 <Bike> can i help you
03:37:37 <coppro> grapeshot is a shitstorm
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03:53:27 <kmc> http://intothecontinuum.tumblr.com/post/21482592732/mathematica-code-p-t-1-0-9-cos-8-t-1
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03:55:16 <Bike> no 420s in the code :/
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03:57:35 <monqy> that reminds me of http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CannabisCurve.html thank you wolfram mathworld
03:58:06 <Bike> I wonder if there are any pretty curves involved with analysis of the endocanniboid system.
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03:58:14 <kmc> "Botanical Terminology"
03:58:29 <Bike> man i cannot spell that word
03:59:54 <Bike> kmc: A lot more in that category than I'd ever have expected.
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05:06:07 <Sgeo> Wonder if Randall opened up a can of security worms with people taking latest xkcd too seriously...
05:07:45 <Bike> aw man, goatkcd hasn't updated yet.
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06:41:18 <FreeFull> Sgeo: Those that don't understand sarcasm?
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10:17:48 <zzo38> Is there program viewing .ods file without needing editing feature and all that stuff?
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10:27:52 <ion> % apt-cache search '\<ods\>'
10:27:53 <ion> odt2txt - simple converter from OpenDocument Text to plain text
10:28:10 <ion> Good enough?
10:28:50 <shachaf> I,I simple converter from WordArt to plane text
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10:45:34 <ion> Giraffes http://imgur.com/a/EiQ5t http://i.imgur.com/Kkhghkj.jpg
10:46:01 <Taneb> Giraffes are a bit like crystal meth
10:46:28 <ion> I love giraffes.
10:46:37 <ion> They are so long.
10:47:00 <shachaf> monqy: Do you know a good way to draw categories?
10:47:08 <shachaf> Something that expresses all the information in a category.
10:47:14 <shachaf> Rather than just the objects and arrows.
10:47:15 <monqy> all the information?
10:47:25 <shachaf> The normal objects/arrows doesn't show you what composes to what.
10:48:06 <monqy> the solution is clearly a heckload of commutative diagrams???
10:49:03 <ion> Something like http://phpsadness.com/static/pages/sad/52/order-full-eq.png
10:54:41 <ion> Someone should write a “PHP is a monad” tutorial.
10:56:07 <monqy> bad idea bad idea bad idea
10:56:24 <Jafet> The group generated by bad ideas???
10:56:28 <nooga> i'd rather write "PHP is a mistake" tutorial
10:56:33 <Jafet> Do bad ideas have inverses
10:56:59 <monqy> is there such a thing as an idea that is not bad
10:57:42 <Taneb> An idea that is still bad but would completely cancel out another bad idea
10:57:46 <Jafet> Well, the inverse of a bad idea could be another bad idea
10:58:03 <Jafet> (which is mandatory in a group generated only by bad ideas)
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11:07:13 <Taneb> How does PHP compare to ASP
11:08:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: erflist: not found
11:08:50 <shachaf> nobody cares about error functions, Sgeo
11:09:05 <ion> taneb: You can implement an SQL injection vulnerability in both.
11:09:31 <Taneb> ion: does ASP at least have consistent function names?
11:10:20 <shachaf> ASP is not a language, is it?
11:11:33 <Taneb> Hmm, it's a framework
11:11:52 <Taneb> So, its function names are as good as VB.NET's
11:12:47 <shachaf> That's a completely different thing from ASP, of course.
11:14:14 <Taneb> I'm sort of meaning everything at once
11:14:30 <atehwa> oerjan: oh thank you for the welcome
11:16:07 <Taneb> > div (4*10^10) (10^10) :: Int
11:16:37 <Taneb> AND THAT IS MY CUE TO LEAVE
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11:16:52 <HackEgo> atehwa: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
11:17:20 <shachaf> Sgeo: Did you ever help the Dylan folks?
11:17:52 <Sgeo> Unless a little discussion counts as helping
11:17:58 <Sgeo> I should really go back to sleep
11:25:44 <Sgeo> <KneferilisHome> hello, how would you describe what a first class function and a higher order function are?
11:25:52 <Sgeo> That's an... interesting way to phrase that question
11:26:16 <Sgeo> If e didn't know what those are, wouldn't e ask "What is a first-class function and a higher order function?"?
11:27:13 <shachaf> have you considered a creer in psychology
11:28:10 <ion> sgeo: What happened to your h key?
11:30:13 <ion> shachaf: ((),()) > I,I
11:30:57 <shachaf> "((),())" is some kind of bug or something.
11:34:07 <ion> Oh. Huh. When i was “((),())” i thought it looks like an owl. When i was “I,I” i thought it’s some weird anime emoticon.
11:35:07 <ion> I seem to start making word substitution typos when i have been awake for too long.
11:36:31 <shachaf> ((),()) may also be part of a spider or something.
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11:52:17 <zzo38> It is just some parentheses and comma; what it means depends on the context.
11:56:16 <Jafet> Why is there an ASP.NET but not a Python Web
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14:03:02 <augur> ((),()) is definitely an owl
14:03:28 <augur> specifically, a horned owl
14:04:30 <augur> insufficiently angry looking, but what can you do
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14:06:56 <augur> i guess it could be a sawhet owl
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14:16:50 <Sgeo> I should learn to notice things like receiving an email that says "Monday, March 5th"
14:17:06 <Sgeo> I remember we discussed Monday on the phone, so I do think it is today.'
14:18:44 <Sgeo> Monday, March 4th.
14:25:57 <boily> Pungenday, Chaos 63rd.
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14:50:16 <shachaf> Sgeo: When will you be back?
14:50:33 <Sgeo> Be back later. Phone interview soon.
14:50:43 <Sgeo> Yes, that was an amsg.
14:51:02 <shachaf> I was going to ask when your phone interview was!
14:51:39 <Sgeo> Freenode doesn't really like amsg
14:51:54 <Sgeo> That message didn't get sent to a few channels because I was targetting channels too fast
14:52:04 <boily> is there any bot that logs stats about diaeresis usage?
14:52:07 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe Freenode is trying to tell you something.
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15:09:56 <Gregor> boily: Yes, glogbot. Or at least, it does if you're willing to dig thru the data and find the statistics you want.
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15:47:26 <Sgeo> They said they were a little concerned about my lack of database experience
15:47:36 <Sgeo> Other than that, I think it went well
15:48:06 <Sgeo> Also, the very first question he asked was one I had no idea about
15:50:24 <Sgeo> What gac is in .NET
15:50:40 <FreeFull> No idea myself, never used .NET
16:04:43 <Sgeo> I don't care if it's Microsoft. It has first-class functions and Java doesn't.
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17:04:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh dear, I think this Windows partition may be broken beyond repair.
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17:18:14 <Sgeo> Um. Just got an email about a position for a "sr. web crawler"
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17:20:38 <Taneb> Sgeo, what responsibilities are there for that role?
17:21:37 <Sgeo> Oh, it's about creating/maintaining a web crawler
17:21:40 <Sgeo> Not _being_ a web crawler
17:21:49 <Taneb> That sounds a lot better
17:22:40 <Taneb> I hope the "sr." is short for Seor
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17:42:38 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/Svmi1KGx
17:42:50 <mroman_> ^- maybe doing garbage collection this way is not the best way to do it :)
17:43:40 <mroman_> but I don't know how I could else tell the gc that a variable has left it's scope.
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17:50:20 <Taneb> According to #haskell, I'm a man human.
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17:53:54 <mroman_> also... reference counting is vulnerable to cyclic references
17:55:38 <Taneb> I think there's a koan about that
17:56:18 <zzo38> Is your Dungeons&Dragons character also a man human?
17:56:42 <zzo38> (including to be specific, the man, and the human)
17:56:49 <coppro> mroman_: what the hell
17:57:25 <zzo38> Maybe you can use different things to keep track of reference just in case there is cyclic references, you need to do something about it.
17:57:30 <boily> coppro: it's the man. it is human. it is also hu.
17:58:47 <Fiora> the taneb man human greets us
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18:01:00 <coppro> mroman_: your garbage collector
18:01:23 <Taneb> zzo38, my D&D character is a dwarf
18:02:27 <mroman_> ref increases the reference count
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18:05:22 <Gregor> Oh god I'm seeing "garbage collection" and "reference count" in the same conversation.
18:05:31 <Gregor> JUST SAY NO TO REFERENCE COUNTING, BY ALL THAT IS HOLY
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18:16:25 <nortti> http://science.slashdot.org/story/13/03/04/1238258/state-rep-says-biking-is-not-earth-friendly-because-breathing-produces-co2 I'm just gonna leave this here
18:16:38 <boily> 1... reference... AH AH AH!
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18:29:24 <ion> nortti: :-D
18:30:11 <AnotherTest> (iff you're running like a really outdated version and stuff)
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18:43:03 <zzo38> But all (?) animals (including people!) will breathe
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19:20:49 <Deewiant> http://this-plt-life.tumblr.com/post/44462204757/simon-peyton-jones-adding-the-io-monad-to-haskell
19:23:24 <boily> what, you don't slap fishes on your meals?
19:24:48 <boily> (fish slapping being an altogether new type system)
19:25:04 <boily> Deewiant: that blog is very nice and relaxing :)
19:26:24 <Sgeo> http://nekofont.upat.jp/
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19:30:08 <Taneb> I'm probably the only Homestuck/Haskell tumblr on tumblr
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19:31:39 <zzo38> Does anyone know why the documentation for Yamaha OPLL says it can be used with Teletext even though Teletext doesn't have music?
19:35:09 <kmc> maybe there was a failed project to add music to teletext
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19:38:23 <Taneb> kmc, like N64DD or that NES satellite system?
19:39:46 <Bike> satellaview is the weirdest thing
19:40:11 <Fiora> Taneb: am I the only homestuck/SSE tumblr
19:43:23 <Sgeo> I have no idea how buildings in NYC work
19:43:38 <Taneb> Sgeo, there's generally a door and some windows
19:43:54 <FreeFull> zzo38: Does taking oxygen out of water count as breathing?
19:43:59 <Sgeo> There's stores, and then there's the entrance for this compan
19:44:11 <Sgeo> And then above it there's many many stories, all drab looking
19:44:14 <Sgeo> Are those offices
19:44:20 <Sgeo> Do the stores next to the company have offices there?
19:44:53 <Taneb> Some of my friends stayed in a hotel in Edinburgh that was mostly above/behind some shops
19:44:56 <Sgeo> Oh, maybe that thing is an entrance to the building, and Ipreo has a few offices in that building?
19:45:15 <Sgeo> Especially since it's just marked with the address, not company name
19:45:42 <Taneb> Maybe they timeshare
19:46:41 <FreeFull> Maybe it's a rich villain's lair and only looks drab from the outside
19:46:58 <zzo38> FreeFull: I don't think so, but I don't know?
19:47:18 <Bike> NYC's a bit expensive for most villainy startups.
19:47:41 <kmc> isn't villainy well-funded?
19:47:47 <kmc> the truth about the world is that crime does pay
19:48:12 <Bike> well, i'm assuming sgeo's going for indie evil.
19:48:22 <kmc> we may be evil but we haven't sold out!
19:48:34 <Sgeo> Ooh, looks like it's a short walk from the train station
19:48:47 <Sgeo> I'm liking this place more already
19:48:55 <kmc> omg trains and new york and stuff
19:50:51 <zzo38> Crime *might* pay.
19:51:07 <zzo38> But it is risky and illegal.
19:51:12 <Sgeo> Stealing live copper wires does not typically pay.
19:51:23 <Taneb> Stealing elevator cables less so
19:55:14 <FreeFull> A villain doesn't have to break the law to be evil
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20:00:51 <zzo38> FreeFull: Yes, but then, is it criminal?
20:02:52 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at end of input
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20:14:14 <lambdabot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\...
20:14:47 <Sgeo> Almost like look-and-say with show
20:15:05 <lambdabot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\...
20:15:11 <tswett> Hm. Is there a fixed point of the look-and-say sequence...
20:16:01 <tswett> 1, 11, 21, 1211, 111221, 312211, 13112221, 1113213211, 31131211131221...
20:16:17 <tswett> The first digit is going to keep going 1, 1, 3, 1, 1, 3, ..., isn't it.
20:16:35 <Taneb> > fix ((<>) <$> id <*> map not)
20:16:44 <Taneb> > fix ((<>) <$> id <*> map not) :: [Bool]
20:19:24 <nooodl> tswett: there isn't one in the sequence
20:19:46 <nooodl> but for the function that you keep applying to get it, [2,2] is a fixed point
20:20:46 <tswett> Does it have other fixed points?
20:21:24 <zzo38> I played the Pokemon game with rental, yesterday, and the day before, against my brother we switch sides afterward, this time I managed to win both times but first time I just got lucky.
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20:27:26 <zzo38> He was first player and in that game you take turn to select the command starting with first player on each turn, so the second player can see how long it took for the first player to select his command.
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20:29:48 <zzo38> Perhaps it would be better for it to alternate, like it is done in E-card?
20:38:34 <zzo38> In E-card, you have five minutes to select what card to play. In this game I was playing, the timer can be set up to 90 seconds.
20:38:51 <zzo38> Actually, I mean up to 99 seconds, or no limit.
20:38:56 <zzo38> I had it set to 90 seconds.
20:41:11 <FreeFull> Is there any way I could use realWorld# or anything else with a # from GHC.Prim
20:42:57 <zzo38> You have to enable the extension for MagicHash
20:46:26 <Taneb> University challenge: "Where's Turku? Where's Trondheim?"
20:51:22 <olsner> sounds like #esoteric jeopardy... A: Turku Q: Where's Hexham?
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21:03:38 <zzo38> I don't know what happen in this Pokemon game if the master clock expires.
21:03:50 <oerjan> 02:57:58 <Jafet> Well, the inverse of a bad idea could be another bad idea
21:03:51 <oerjan> 02:58:15 <Jafet> (which is mandatory in a group generated only by bad ideas)
21:04:31 <oerjan> Jafet: sorry, that does not obviously follow. at least if you take the analogy bad = negative, the statement is false for the integers.
21:05:05 <Gregor> But what if, say, good=prime? There are no negative prime numbers.
21:05:26 <oerjan> `run echo "Newsflash: every single letter is 'U'" | uuu
21:05:28 <HackEgo> Uuuuuuuuu: uuuuu uuuuuu uuuuuu uu 'U'
21:06:07 <zzo38> But there are some ideas I have for what such things might want to do: [1] Commands are selected at random for both sides at maximum speed. [2] Whoever has more % of HP remaining wins. [3] Whoever has more happiness wins. [4] Whoever used up less time during their turns in total wins. [5] Whoever has the inferior team at the beginning of the battle wins. [6] It is always a draw.
21:06:18 <zzo38> Do you like any of this?
21:06:31 <oerjan> Gregor: no, but then obviously bad = composite, and the multiplicative group of rationals is still generated by those
21:06:40 <Taneb> zzo38, not keen on 6
21:08:20 <boily> Gregor: G gg gggggg; ggggg /g/ggggg.
21:08:38 <zzo38> Taneb: In all cases including [6] I only mean if the master clock expires, though.
21:09:00 <Taneb> In that case 6 is the best
21:09:16 <Taneb> As long as there's an "infinite time" option
21:09:24 <Taneb> 5 would be hard to measure
21:09:56 <Taneb> Don't know enough about the game to comment on 3
21:10:07 <Taneb> 1 I'm in two minds about
21:10:11 <zzo38> Well, yes. Actually, if there is an option, at least if I did it, you would be able to set the master clock to whatever or infinite, as well as to set what happen when it expires, and it would measure by computer so [5] is not being hard to measure.
21:11:06 <zzo38> I mean [4] is not being hard to measure.
21:11:20 <zzo38> [5] would be difficult unless the computer has levels or tiers perhaps!
21:11:28 <zzo38> With levels and tiers and stuff, it can be measured.
21:12:07 <zzo38> But there is another possibility: [7] The time-wasting threshold is set. If the difference of time used up is less than the threshold, it is a draw, otherwise whoever used up less time in total wins.
21:12:54 <zzo38> Of course probably you will use a shot clock and/or a chess clock as welll, regardless what option you set, if you hare a master clock at all.
21:13:10 <zzo38> Option [6] is like the rule in cricket.
21:13:41 <Taneb> Anyway, I need to bulk out the description of Underload
21:13:51 <Taneb> oerjan, interesting thing about Underload
21:14:27 <zzo38> Official Scrabble tournaments are played with shot clocks, and outside of Britain also with a master clock. Chess boxing uses all three clocks.
21:14:42 <Taneb> oerjan, I'm asking for some
21:15:07 <oerjan> well the fact that it's TC with just 4 of its commands is something i find biasedly interesting :)
21:15:25 <zzo38> Some people prefer to play Scrabble with chess clocks instead.
21:15:36 <Taneb> What is a shot clock
21:15:51 <Taneb> boily, interesting thing about Underload
21:16:16 <zzo38> Shot clock means you have a timer to make your move on your turn, and is reset on every turn.
21:16:51 <zzo38> In games that use that (such as snooker) that is what it is called, so probably it can be called the same in other games too.
21:18:35 <boily> Taneb: yes? underload is alreading interesting. more interest could cause some kind of wibbly-wobbly thing with our galactic black hole, and make the local supercluster implode.
21:18:36 <oerjan> Taneb: i believe elliott intends to feature Deadfish on April 1, so if Underload is featured now it will have less than a month.
21:18:58 <Taneb> oerjan, that means I can wait a bit longer for this
21:19:03 <Taneb> But I'd like it written
21:19:16 <Taneb> boily, I'm writing a description for the featured language
21:19:25 <Taneb> Because elliott doesn't want to and won't let ais523
21:19:41 <oerjan> yeah. i've been thinking vaguely that there should be a suggested blurb page under Esolang:Featured Languages/
21:20:23 <oerjan> Taneb: a small interesting thing is that it has very short quines
21:20:39 <oerjan> without being specifically designed to have them (afaik)
21:22:05 <boily> in my egotistical opinion, I'd say aubergine would make for an interesting featured language.
21:22:09 <oerjan> fizzie: FUNGOT FATIGUE
21:22:21 <Taneb> !underload (:a*S):a*S
21:22:23 <boily> (obviously, I have absolutely no bias towards that particular language, no siree.)
21:22:34 <Taneb> !underload (:~a*S):~a*S
21:23:00 <Taneb> boily, I have a similar opinion of Fueue
21:23:32 <Taneb> !underload (:a~*S):a~*S
21:24:04 <oerjan> Taneb: now make one which embeds an arbitrary element
21:25:53 <Taneb> !underload (what)(~aS:a~*S)~aS:a~*S
21:25:54 <EgoBot> (what)(~aS:a~*S)~aS:a~*S
21:27:06 <boily> Taneb: therefore, we need a cyclic aubergine/fueue quine.
21:27:30 <Taneb> Is that even possible
21:28:19 <olsner> a cyclic aubergine? sounds awesome
21:28:33 <oerjan> <FreeFull> How did oerjan's fizzbuzz go? <-- see the logs hth
21:28:41 <Taneb> I'm the worst at quines
21:28:51 <Taneb> And I'm the guy who knows Fueue the third-best
21:29:18 <Taneb> Arc_Koen, of course
21:30:14 <oerjan> hm we haven't written a Fueue quine yet, have we. or is that what you are trying?
21:30:31 <Taneb> Nah, boily was proposing a cyclic Aubergine/Fueue quine
21:30:57 <Taneb> Imagine a cyclic Malbolge/ORK quine
21:31:56 <Taneb> "There is a scribe called bugger this"
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21:36:37 <zzo38> I think the Interactive Fiction database have no "disjunctive require" option for searching?
21:36:56 -!- fungot has joined.
21:37:03 <zzo38> But it does have "allow", "require", "prohibit", which is OK.
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21:51:58 <oerjan> can any girl genius readers here tell me if there has been an update today? i'd like to know if my cache/whatever issue affects that as well.
21:52:31 <boily> no, last update March 1st.
21:52:32 <oerjan> Taneb: um today is monday
21:52:40 <Taneb> I thought it was Sunday
21:53:12 <olsner> I thought yesterday was monday instead
21:53:33 <Taneb> olsner, so on average, we're right
21:53:35 <Sgeo> Scheduling an appointment for possible internship, but what if that conflicts with scheduling a possible Ipreo in-person meeting'
21:53:54 <olsner> schedule nothing and nothing will conflict
21:54:00 <Taneb> You could ask to reschedule either
21:54:13 <oerjan> olsner: the zen of management?
21:54:29 <olsner> more like the zen of not using a calendar
21:54:41 <olsner> I think management is more about using a calendar
21:55:17 <Taneb> Do nothing twice at once and nothing will conflict with nothing
21:55:20 <Sgeo> Ipreo will be understanding if they suggest a day and I say I'm not available that day, how about a different day?
21:56:10 <olsner> hmm, probably tao, I suspect zen is not used that way ... I also suspect they are not from the same tradition either
21:56:45 <oerjan> although they're both from china afaik
21:56:53 <olsner> Taneb: the sound of one hand not having a scheduling conflict
21:57:10 <oerjan> FreeFull: the bot logs.
21:57:19 <oerjan> hm i see a possible problem here.
21:57:57 -!- oerjan has set topic: welcomes its new prime minister, Ed "Brainfuck Derivative" Centipede | Newsflash: every single letter is 'U' | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:58:30 <oerjan> hm the #esoteric got swallowed
21:58:30 <olsner> U're every single letter
21:58:37 -!- oerjan has set topic: #esoteric welcomes its new prime minister, Ed "Brainfuck Derivative" Centipede | Newsflash: every single letter is 'U' | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:02:08 <FreeFull> What timezone is the bot using?
22:03:30 <FreeFull> oerjan: I'm gonna try to improve on your fizzbuzz
22:03:53 <oerjan> try included lenses while you're at it
22:04:11 <oerjan> glogbot uses UTC afaik
22:04:32 <oerjan> clog uses something weird USy
22:04:48 <oerjan> but lenses are so easy!
22:05:08 <olsner> I think one of the bots is on new zeeland time
22:05:22 <olsner> I guess that's the prevailing time zone in hexham
22:05:38 <zzo38> I think clog is Pacific time same as my timezone; glogbot uses UNIX time so it can be converted to whatever format you need.
22:05:59 <oerjan> HackEgo is on nz language settings, no idea about timezone
22:06:04 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: time: not found
22:06:09 <HackEgo> Mon Mar 4 22:06:09 UTC 2013
22:06:44 -!- FreeFull has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:07:59 <zzo38> What types in Haskell can be regular reasoners? I think functors is one of them?
22:08:40 <oerjan> what is a regular reasoner
22:09:12 <zzo38> forall p and q: B(p -> q) -> B(Bp -> Bq)
22:09:36 <lambdabot> (Functor f1, Functor f) => f (a -> b) -> f (f1 a -> f1 b)
22:09:49 <zzo38> Yes, fmap fmap is what I was thinking of.
22:10:18 -!- FreeFull has joined.
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22:11:59 <lambdabot> (Functor f1, Functor f) => (a -> b) -> f (f1 a) -> f (f1 b)
22:13:28 <shachaf> zzo38: Are you talking about modal logic or something?
22:14:02 <shachaf> Functor is not what you want for that.
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22:14:40 <shachaf> I mean, they have that property, but they're too strong.
22:14:42 <zzo38> I know, but I mean that Functor is one thing that is able to make such a type.
22:14:42 <lambdabot> (Functor f1, Functor f) => (a -> b) -> f (f1 a) -> f (f1 b)
22:14:54 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, that is what I mean, too
22:15:17 <Bike> it's doxastic logic (again).
22:17:09 <shachaf> Hey, Raymond Smullyan has a book on modal logic?
22:17:29 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:18:17 <shachaf> Bike: Why didn't you tell me?
22:18:33 -!- wareya has joined.
22:18:53 <Bike> Oh, is that in Mock a Mockingbird?
22:19:34 <Taneb> (B(x), (x -> B(y))) -> B(y)
22:19:52 <Bike> Holy hell, what a cover
22:20:16 <shachaf> don't judge a musician by their cover, Bike
22:21:10 <Taneb> shachaf, me being sleepy and trying to show that possibility is a Monad
22:21:22 <Bike> wrong modal logic?
22:21:32 <shachaf> You don't have quantifiers.
22:22:23 <Taneb> It's "Taneb's awful syntax for a misunderstanding of formal logic and its variations, loosely inspired by Haskell"
22:22:51 <Taneb> Certainty isn't a functor...
22:23:01 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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22:25:37 <boily> `run echo -n "We don't know what certainty is for sure, but at least it isn't a functor" >wisdom/certainty
22:25:46 <HackEgo> We don't know what certainty is for sure, but at least it isn't a functor
22:25:53 <boily> `run echo -n "We don't know what certainty is for sure, but at least it isn't a functor." >wisdom/certainty
22:27:01 <oerjan> no, it's not that easy
22:27:28 <oerjan> (why is a dead horse looking at me disapprovingly)
22:28:09 <Jafet> `run cp wisdom/certain{t,l}y && sed -i 's/ty/ly/' wisdom/certainly
22:31:05 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends.
22:32:50 <boily> I don't, it hasn't reached Canada yet.
22:33:52 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: what is the purpose of "allow"?
22:34:49 <Arc_Koen> @tell Taneb just because I can tell my computer to interpret fueue doesn't mean I know anything about fueue :)
22:35:56 <HackEgo> 825) <Jafet> I wonder if Red Alert 4 will use MMIX \ 850) <Jafet> The world needs better healthcare, social justice and wealth distribution, but a monads library for clojure surely won't hurt \ 955) <Sgeo> This position is asking for "- Extensive experience with API" <Jafet> You're just not qualified, kid.
22:36:17 <Arc_Koen> I wanted to go to the cinema to see Angelopoulos' post-mortem film, but at the last moment I remembered I had to play a game for the qualifications for the french youth go team
22:36:27 <Arc_Koen> so I stayed home instead (qualifications are played on the internet)
22:36:36 <Arc_Koen> then my opponent didn't show up
22:37:20 <Arc_Koen> when the game was finally forfeited, I figured I still had enough time to run to the cinema to see Ben Affleck's Argo
22:37:44 <Arc_Koen> I did so... but the theatre was full
22:38:31 <Jafet> Movies are seen on the internet
22:38:40 <boily> argo must be seen at the cinema.
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22:39:09 <Bike> French Youth Go could be a saturday morning TV show.
22:39:10 <boily> it's been a while since I've played go. I guess I'm now somewhere around 18~19 kyu.
22:40:40 <Arc_Koen> boily: you should start again!
22:42:00 <Arc_Koen> on the plus side, I chatted with the projectionist intern, who happens to be very cute
22:44:51 <boily> I turned to the shōgi side of the foce a long time ago, and nowadays I'm more of a mahjong player than anything else.
22:45:40 <Arc_Koen> you're the second person I met who's gone from go to shogi
22:45:51 <Sgeo> I should play some Go at some point
22:45:57 <Sgeo> Except it's hard to score Go in person :(
22:46:01 <Arc_Koen> I guess two is a fair retribution for the countless chess players who turned go players
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23:29:13 <shachaf> ion: Remind me: Did you need → or End for that game?
23:29:41 <zzo38> boily: I can play shogi and mahjong, as well as chess and go
23:30:22 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: "allow" is simply the default setting; it doesn't actually mean anything.
23:30:42 <boily> zzo38: I know the rules of western chess, but can't play it. I'm better at xiangqi than shōgi. my mahjong is probably good, but my go is rust-y (har har har... *sigh* stupid pun.).
23:31:00 <zzo38> I can play xiangqi too.
23:31:48 <Arc_Koen> let's have a chessgoshogixiangki tournament!
23:32:34 <boily> I claim mornington crescent by way of picadilly!
23:32:48 <Jafet> Resolve ko through a kickboxing match
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23:39:57 <zzo38> What kinds of rules do you like to use with mahjong?
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23:41:30 * Sgeo wants to try Backgammon
23:42:10 <zzo38> I know how to play backgammon too.
23:42:33 <boily> I don't want to play backgammon anymore. the dice always conspire against me.
23:43:29 <Arc_Koen> boily: have you tried using two cups? so that they don't get an opportunity to talk
23:44:47 <zzo38> I want to play backgammon card.
23:47:05 <boily> Arc_Koen: good suggestion. I'll try it next time against my bro.
23:47:11 <boily> zzo38: that exists?
23:47:52 <Arc_Koen> hmm you could replace the dice by decks of 1-2-3-4-5-6 cards
23:48:28 <Arc_Koen> so if you've got a big number of 1s in the beginning, you know you're not gonna have many of them in the endgame
23:49:38 <boily> «Taupes et Compagnie» uses that concept, with a fixed stack of number-tokens.
23:49:45 <boily> (can't remember that game's English name)
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23:51:22 <Jafet> Hypergeometric distribution, in my backgammon?
23:51:24 <zzo38> boily: I don't know if it exists, but I want to play such game.
23:51:53 <zzo38> I generally prefer the games with cards than with dice.
23:51:58 <boily> Arc_Koen, zzo38: it is either "mole in the hole" or "under the ground". http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/321/the-mole-in-the-hole
23:52:59 <boily> Arc_Koen: no, from Montréal, Québec.
23:53:22 <Arc_Koen> or right you mentioned canada earlier
23:55:10 <zzo38> Can you play Pokemon card or Magic: the Gathering cards?
23:56:44 <coppro> boily:I'm from Montreal. is not a valid answer to are you French?
23:57:25 <boily> coppro: I'm not from France, therefore I'm not French.
23:57:48 <zzo38> Do you like Magic: the Puzzling?
23:57:50 <Sgeo> Cockatrice was shut down :(
23:58:03 <boily> nooooooooooooooooooo!
23:58:07 <Jafet> coppro: Montreal isn't french, but Montréal
23:59:14 <boily> time to go eat. I'm hungry.
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00:00:04 <zzo38> I also like Magic: the Gathering puzzles and Pokemon card puzzles, and I like to compose Pokemon card puzzles, including the one requiring retreating at least three times, knocking out your own cards, and so on.
00:01:03 <zzo38> I play chess puzzles too, as well as tsume shogi, too.
00:01:11 <coppro> zzo38: I saw a player use Restoration Angel to flash a token at the GP
00:02:01 <zzo38> Can you give me the text of that card, and the details of the situation?
00:05:30 <Arc_Koen> can someone copy the list at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Self-modifying and email it to me?
00:06:22 <Jafet> `fetch http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Self-modifying
00:06:25 <HackEgo> 2013-03-05 00:06:24 URL:http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Self-modifying [18477] -> "Category:Self-modifying" [1]
00:06:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: mail: not found
00:06:51 <zzo38> coppro: Do you not remember?
00:07:19 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
00:09:17 <coppro> I'm just too lazy. You can look up card texts yourself
00:09:27 <Bike> @google mtg gatherer restoration angel
00:09:28 <lambdabot> http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=240096
00:09:29 <lambdabot> Title: Restoration Angel (Avacyn Restored) - Gatherer - Magic: The Gathering
00:10:39 <zzo38> What was the situation, however?
00:10:48 * oerjan wonders what kind of strange setup makes Arc_Koen unable to do the tranfer himself
00:11:09 <Arc_Koen> well the whole point is to compare what I see with what others see
00:11:39 <coppro> zzo38: there was a spell targeted at the token which he did not want to resolve
00:11:54 <zzo38> O, OK, yes, that would work.
00:12:10 <oerjan> `url Category:Self-modifying
00:12:13 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/Category%3ASelf-modifying
00:12:35 <Arc_Koen> error: Category:Self-modifying@f368e91512e6: not found in manifest
00:12:38 <zzo38> I like that kinds of ideas.
00:12:43 <Arc_Koen> hmm yes definitely different from what I see :p
00:12:53 <Bike> `cat "Category:Self-modifying"
00:12:55 <HackEgo> cat: "Category:Self-modifying": No such file or directory
00:13:03 <Bike> `run cat 'Category:Self-modifying'
00:13:04 <HackEgo> cat: Category:Self-modifying: No such file or directory
00:13:29 <HackEgo> patching file Category:Self-modifying
00:13:36 <Jafet> I deletedetedeted it
00:14:01 <zzo38> It says "that card" but the first part doesn't say it has to be a card.
00:14:05 <Bike> `run cat 'Category:Self-modifying'
00:14:07 <HackEgo> <!DOCTYPE html> \ <html lang="en" dir="ltr" class="client-nojs"> \ <head> \ <title>Category:Self-modifying - Esolang</title> \ <meta charset="UTF-8" /> \ <meta name="generator" content="MediaWiki 1.19.1" /> \ <link rel="alternate" type="application/x-wiki" title="Edit" href="/w/index.php?title=Category:Self-modifying&action=edit" /> \ <link
00:14:39 <zzo38> Under the current rules, does the token come back, though?
00:15:00 <Arc_Koen> well it appears to be exactly what I see
00:16:02 <HackEgo> Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
00:16:47 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: but what if your browser has a "trusting trust" problem, what then!
00:17:29 <Jafet> "Warning: I cannot be trusted to display this webpage correctly. Display webpage?"
00:18:01 <Arc_Koen> so how does mediawiki handle category page? for instance if you add a page to a category, when is the category page updated?
00:18:27 <oerjan> i thought it was pretty quick...
00:19:00 <oerjan> Jafet: wtf are you doing to rainwords :P
00:19:04 <zzo38> If it is a SQL query, it should do immediately if there isn't a cache of the query.
00:19:42 <zzo38> coppro: Do you know the answer to my rules question? They change the rules so I don't know what it is
00:20:42 <Jafet> oerjan: making it work on bin/rainwords
00:20:52 <Jafet> `run rainwords $(which rainwords)
00:21:08 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
00:22:08 <oerjan> also exactly how didn't it work before...
00:23:10 <Jafet> raw_input() reads one line
00:23:18 <Jafet> (I think we learned this recently)
00:23:23 <oerjan> oh. i was wondering more about the r thing
00:24:07 <oerjan> `/usr/bin/python --versino
00:24:09 <HackEgo> Unknown option: -- \ usage: /usr/bin/python [option] ... [-c cmd | -m mod | file | -] [arg] ... \ Try `python -h' for more information.
00:24:10 <oerjan> `/usr/bin/python --version
00:24:10 <Arc_Koen> I just used my magic powers to update the category page, now it has 82 languages listed
00:24:35 <Jafet> `run python -c 'r=[4,7,8,9,2,13,6]; print " ".join(chr(3) + c + ":-)" for c in r)'
00:24:37 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "<string>", line 1, in <module> \ File "<string>", line 1, in <genexpr> \ TypeError: cannot concatenate 'str' and 'int' objects
00:24:45 <Jafet> `run python -c 'r=[4,7,8,9,2,13,6]; print " ".join(chr(3) + str(c) + ":-)" for c in r)'
00:24:46 <HackEgo> :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
00:25:01 <Jafet> 13 isn't very indigo, unfortunately
00:26:16 <oerjan> oh it's actually rainbow order :P
00:26:43 <oerjan> `rainwords What does this do then
00:27:01 <oerjan> i think there is a problem yes
00:28:01 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/python \ import random; w=[l.split() for l in open("/dev/stdin").read().split("\n")]; r=[4,7,8,9,2,13,6]; print "\n".join((lambda s: " ".join(chr(3) + str(r[(i+s)%len(r)]) + l[i] for i in range(len(l))))(random.randrange(0, len(r))) for l in w)
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00:28:33 <oerjan> `run echo I think I remember the issue | rainwords
00:28:35 <HackEgo> I think I remember the issue
00:28:38 <kallisti_> I'm kind of confused as to how regular expressions are a single production rule (in the formal grammar sense)
00:29:03 <Bike> kallisti_: ac*b generates ab, acb, accb, acccb, etc
00:29:09 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/rainwords", line 2, in <module> \ import random; w=[l.split() for l in open("/dev/stdin").read().split("\n")]; r=[4,7,8,9,2,13,6]; print "\n".join((lambda s: " ".join(chr(3) + str(r[(i+s)%len(r)]) + l[i] for i in range(len(l))))(random.randrange(0, len(r))) for l in w) \ MemoryError
00:29:16 <Jafet> oerjan: what do you think this is, haskell??
00:29:24 <Jafet> Take your infinite streams and begone
00:29:26 <oerjan> `run yes | head -50 | rainwords
00:29:28 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
00:29:41 <kallisti_> oh wait maybe I misunderstand what a regular grammar is
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00:29:59 <Bike> it's just alternation and kleene star
00:30:07 <Bike> oh and concatenation obv
00:30:20 <kallisti_> I'm trying to find the link between regular expressions and regular grammars
00:30:48 <Bike> "In regular grammars, the left hand side is again only a single nonterminal symbol, but now the right-hand side is also restricted. The right side may be the empty string, or a single terminal symbol, or a single terminal symbol followed by a nonterminal symbol, but nothing else."
00:31:06 <kallisti_> so a regular grammar can have multiple production rules right?
00:31:24 <kallisti_> I misread and thought that it meant the grammar had only one production rule
00:31:31 <Bike> http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/5/6/e/56e5e8888abe83d0f4f731bde2611d72.png wikipedia's example
00:31:40 <Jafet> `run ghc -e 'putStr $ replicate 100 "_,.-~^~-.,"' | rainwords
00:31:40 <Bike> (for a+b+ in regex syntax)
00:31:44 <HackEgo> \ <interactive>:1:24: \ Couldn't match expected type `Char' with actual type `[Char]' \ In the second argument of `replicate', namely `"_,.-~^~-.,"' \ In the second argument of `($)', namely \ `replicate 100 "_,.-~^~-.,"' \ In the expression: putStr $ replicate 100 "_,.-~^~-.,"
00:31:47 <Bike> ...that didn't work
00:31:53 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_grammar#Regular_grammars that.
00:32:21 <Jafet> `run ghc -e 'putStr $ take 999 $ cycle "_,.-~^~-.,"' | colorize
00:32:26 <HackEgo> _,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-
00:32:37 <Jafet> `run ghc -e 'putStr $ take 200 $ cycle "_,.-~^~-.,"' | colorize
00:32:42 <HackEgo> _,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,
00:32:50 <kallisti_> ah okay, I simply misread what a regular grammar is.
00:33:20 <Bike> `run python -c 'print("_,.-~^~-.," * 100)" | colorize
00:33:21 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
00:33:22 <FreeFull> `run yes ":D " | head -50 | tr -d '\n' | rainwords
00:33:24 <HackEgo> :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
00:33:27 <Bike> `run python -c 'print("_,.-~^~-.," * 100)"' | colorize
00:33:29 <HackEgo> File "<string>", line 1 \ print("_,.-~^~-.," * 100)" \ ^ \ SyntaxError: EOL while scanning string literal \ Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/colorize", line 4, in <module> \ w=raw_input() \ EOFError: EOF when reading a line
00:33:32 <kallisti_> so this concept for an esolang I have
00:33:38 <kallisti_> is essentially a context-sensitive grammar
00:33:44 <Bike> `run python -c 'print("_,.-~^~-.," * 100)' | colorize
00:33:45 <kallisti_> where the production rules are operating on themselves
00:33:46 <HackEgo> _,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-
00:34:26 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: tcc: not found
00:34:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: icc: not found
00:34:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: clang: not found
00:35:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: fasm: not found
00:35:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: nasm: not found
00:35:35 <Bike> hm is there an esolang based on linker command language
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00:36:08 <Jafet> Bike: that seems redundant
00:36:21 <FreeFull> Is there an esolang that randomly picks other esolangs to try running your code in?
00:36:40 <oerjan> Bike: colorize doesn't add colors beyond hackego's output limit of 350 bytes
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00:37:31 <FreeFull> Rainbows all the way across #esoteric
00:40:01 <zzo38> Is coppro even on anymore?
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00:51:37 <zzo38> Is there a way in Linux to access the text mode VRAM without root?
00:52:29 <zzo38> Furthermore, can you capture the text mode VRAM of a different virtual console in this way?
00:56:15 <kmc> chmod /dev/mem and then you can :)
00:56:33 <zzo38> I don't want to access all of the memory though.
00:58:33 <Jafet> Can you put ACLs on /dev/mem
00:58:48 <Jafet> "there could be a legit use for this"
00:58:51 <kmc> you can write a setuid helper for reading parts of /dev/mem
00:59:10 <kmc> over a UNIX socket with SCM_CREDS
00:59:18 <kmc> bad ideas itt
00:59:34 <zzo38> What would be the addresses of such screens anyways (also based on the numbers of rows and columns)?
00:59:51 <kmc> dunno, you may have to source-dive the linux kernel
01:00:06 <Jafet> Source-dive the linux documentation
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01:00:25 <zzo38> Are they the standard PC text mode formats?
01:01:14 <zzo38> I was thinking to have the program which writes the text VRAM of one virtual console to a file, with a header specifying the width/height.
01:01:37 <zzo38> Doing this is MZM layer mode.
01:03:10 <zzo38> Some people may want to have a ANSI screenshot of Linux screens, so you could then use MZM->ANSI to do that.
01:03:30 <Jafet> Does the linux console support 256 colors
01:03:54 <zzo38> As far as I know it is PC text mode.
01:07:53 <Jafet> I thought it used the framebuffer
01:08:12 <kmc> can do either
01:08:14 <zzo38> I think it supports that too
01:08:57 <zzo38> I suppose you would need the framebuffer or other things though, if you are running Linux in the computer which is not PC.
01:11:16 <Jafet> You would need the framebuffer unless you enjoy running htop in 80x25 or whatever the VGA text mode is
01:12:31 <kmc> i enjoy it very much
01:12:33 <kmc> it's so easy
01:14:42 <zzo38> The default text mode is 80x25, but it seems to be able to run in various other sizes too.
01:20:13 <Sgeo> Hrmph. Still no new OOTS
01:22:22 <Jafet> oots is the worst campaign ever
01:22:33 <Jafet> Who runs a campaign for ten years
01:24:26 <zzo38> How long do *you* run a champagne^Wcampaign?
01:25:00 <Jafet> Nobody lets me run a campaign
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01:27:30 <zzo38> Then you must learn.
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01:42:08 <Jafet> "In May 2006, Intel announced that 80386 production would stop at the end of September 2007."
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02:25:20 <zzo38> In Dungeons&Dragons game, some people forced us to give them much of our things; much of which is not important but some are, so we need to get it back.
02:25:52 <zzo38> It seems they don't understand magic very well, so if we can somehow convince them that the amulet of anti-magic is actually a amulet of illusions? (note: My character is currently invisible)
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02:27:57 <zzo38> Or if I find the single one, alone, which has the item we need, then I could safely stun them even though becoming visible, if I can surprise them.
02:28:46 <zzo38> I do think of the possibility that they are just trying to make us think they don't know magic and actually they do, but I find this not likely at this time. Nevertheless, I must consider all of the possibilities.
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02:49:17 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo
02:50:51 <zzo38> Did I missed something else?
02:51:24 <Sgeo> And I take it you got your cache issues sorted out?
02:51:40 <oerjan> no, i just went to the right number directly
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03:08:22 <madbr> the 65816 is so impossible to pipeline
03:08:28 <madbr> it's like it's designed against it
03:13:06 <oerjan> @hoogle m (x -> y) -> x -> m y
03:13:07 <lambdabot> Control.Applicative (<*>) :: Applicative f => f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
03:13:07 <lambdabot> Control.Monad ap :: Monad m => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b
03:13:07 <lambdabot> Control.Applicative (<**>) :: Applicative f => f a -> f (a -> b) -> f b
03:13:25 <lambdabot> Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b
03:13:48 <oerjan> @hoogle m (x -> m y) -> x -> m y
03:13:49 <lambdabot> Prelude (=<<) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
03:13:49 <lambdabot> Control.Monad (=<<) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
03:13:49 <lambdabot> Prelude (>>=) :: Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
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03:45:42 <coppro> zzo38: it is a card because once in exile, it is just a card
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05:08:00 <zzo38> coppro: I thought it is a token?
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06:31:25 <coppro> zzo38: tokens cannot be returned to the battlefield once exiled
06:31:32 <coppro> so that sentence wouldn't apply to them anyway
06:37:35 <zzo38> coppro: Yes it is what I thought might be the case
06:38:15 <zzo38> Do they cease to exist due to lack of initial state? How do the new rules work with this?
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06:40:49 <madbr> zzo38 : got any interest in synthesizer design?
06:48:18 <zzo38> Can you make a Pokemon card puzzle which involves retreating more than three times? What is the maximum number of times you can make it have? There is win in 1, win in 2, win in 3, even as much as win in thirty, can there be made a win in sixty?
06:49:54 <zzo38> Or make one involving a not 100% win but maximized chances?
06:55:07 <zzo38> madbr: What was your ask of interest in synthesizer design?
06:58:02 <madbr> writing a synth atm
06:58:58 <coppro> zzo38: a token, once it has left the battlefield, cannot again change zones
06:59:08 <coppro> it ceases to exist the next time state-based actions are performed
07:01:42 <zzo38> coppro: Yes, those are the rules I thought but there are many things I dislike about the Magic: the Gathering rules that I think are very klugy; I don't like the rule of removing auras that are also creatures, for example, as well as other things. But, OK, now at least I can know what those rules are.
07:02:04 <zzo38> madbr: What synth are you writing?
07:03:48 <zzo38> I always use Csound for this kinds of stuff, it has physical models. But what specific physical model are you making? Maybe it is one I don't have.
07:05:03 <madbr> going to have a couple "generic" models
07:05:12 <madbr> one for wind instruments
07:05:26 <madbr> and one for plucked strings with a variant for percussion
07:05:44 <zzo38> O, I already have things like that.
07:05:59 <zzo38> Still, I suppose yours might be useful for using with VST, I guess.
07:06:27 <madbr> yeah but the ones in STK suck
07:06:45 <madbr> dunno about the csound ones but they're probably not very good
07:07:16 <zzo38> O, OK, then. Are you able to license the files under the LGPL v2.1 and later version?
07:09:04 <zzo38> The files to implement the physical model; in case it works better than the one in Csound then I can port it to Csound.
07:09:30 <zzo38> Actually Csound has a few generic models for wind instruments and plucked strings; one of the plucked string models is of a good quality.
07:11:30 <zzo38> Csound uses the LGPL v2.1 license, so my own plugins to Csound use the same license so that they could include it in the main program if they wanted to.
07:12:29 <madbr> does that imply that the other plucked string models are bad
07:13:44 <zzo38> Not necessarily; it could also be that I configured them incorrectly or have bias due to other reasons, still, it can be useful for certain sounds nevertheless.
07:14:18 <zzo38> I just mean they do not seem to be as good as the specific one that I found to be much better than the others.
07:14:52 <madbr> or maybe they just sound bad
07:15:00 <madbr> like most physical modeling stuff
07:17:16 <zzo38> Still, one of them is not bad, specifically "wgpluck" seems good.
07:22:17 <zzo38> I have gotten some special effects by using percussion sounds with waveguides to make a new sound
07:31:04 <madbr> doesn't look like it has inharmonicity
07:32:09 <zzo38> You might be correct.
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07:40:05 <mroman_> How does a mark-and-sweep gc know which "objects are still known"?
07:40:45 <mroman_> void foo() { char* b =alloc .. char* a= alloc... bar(b); ...} void bar(b) { doStuff }
07:40:56 <mroman_> if my gc kicks in while b is currently in doStuff
07:41:06 <mroman_> how does he know that he should not delete b and a yet?
07:41:27 <mroman_> and how does he know he can delete them after foo
07:41:29 <shachaf> You mean a conservative GC?
07:41:38 <Bike> usually you'd add the stack frame to the root set?
07:41:44 <shachaf> It'll just scan the stack/registers/etc. for pointers.
07:42:15 <mroman_> Yeah but since I'm compiling to C there might be other stuff on the stack too
07:42:28 <mroman_> I could pass stuff on an other stack structure
07:42:39 <mroman_> and then just scan the stack
07:42:42 <mroman_> that'd be the easiest thing
07:43:10 <mroman_> instead of compiling to bar(b); I would compile to push(someStack,b); bar();
07:43:17 <mroman_> and bar pops arguments from someStack
07:43:24 <mroman_> but I'm not sure if there's not better way
07:44:09 <Bike> what "other stuff" is there on the stack?
07:44:31 <Bike> Like, return addresses?
07:44:44 <Bike> somehow i doubt it's going to be a problem to have return addresses in the root set
07:44:47 <mroman_> Yes, but that would not be the problem.
07:46:55 <mroman_> You can do inline C stuff i.e you can write a function in my language and embed C in it
07:47:47 <mroman_> if somebody allocates something on the stack there
07:48:30 <Bike> I don't see the problem? The root set is what's not being collected, you can be greedy.
07:48:41 <Bike> And like shachaf said it's gonna be conservative.
07:49:08 <Bike> The root set. The set of things you tell mark and sweep not to collect.
07:49:45 <Bike> i.e. the "objects still known".
07:49:56 <mroman_> but how do I know which objects I know.
07:50:20 <Bike> Everything pointed to by the stack, and pointed to by that, etc
07:50:29 <mroman_> The stack is not in my control.
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07:52:22 <mroman_> I can't scan the c stack for pointers
07:52:30 <mroman_> how would I even know what's a pointer and what not
07:52:51 <mroman_> and how would I know which are mine and which are not my pointers
07:53:06 <Bike> You don't. You assume everything is a pointer. it's okay to overestimate.
07:54:17 <mroman_> but that would require that all pointers are aligned
07:54:17 <Bike> If you want an exact GC you can use tags or do something funny like put all integers in some particular page, but, you're
07:54:33 <mroman_> 4byte ptr, 1byte char , 4byte ptr
07:54:43 <mroman_> ^- that'd mess things up big time if I do a ptr sweep
07:55:24 <Bike> I thought the stack would usually be word-aligned anyway...
07:55:54 <Fiora> isn't it required by most ABIs...?
07:56:13 <Fiora> ... actually isn't it generally required that data types are aligned to their natural alignment?
07:56:17 <Fiora> like, on the stack or not
07:56:26 <Fiora> unaligned data is invalid C, I think
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07:57:15 <shachaf> The natural alignment for all my data types is Chaotic Evil.
07:57:20 <Bike> That's what I thought. But if tha'ts not the case, maybe you could store stack alloc data along with compiled functions.
07:57:36 <madbr> yeah normally everything should be aligned
07:57:42 <Fiora> the alignment for all my data types is neutral good
07:57:44 <Fiora> except long double
07:57:47 <Fiora> which is chaotic neutral
07:57:54 <madbr> since most processors slap on massive alignment penalties on you if you don't
07:57:54 <Bike> Actually maybe you could do that anyway and then you'd really know what's a pointer... hm
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07:58:11 <madbr> except the lastest ridiculous intel chips but that's a detail
07:58:22 <Fiora> most? I think most non-x86 just outright segfaults ^^;
07:58:29 <mroman_> sure. miss alignment decreases performance
07:58:50 <madbr> mroman: normally you don't even want to allow misalignment on a cpu
07:58:58 <Fiora> I guess a kernal trap counts as decreased performance.... XD
07:59:00 <madbr> complexifies the design like mad
07:59:01 <mroman_> But still, you can do that.
07:59:05 <fizzie> ARM just gets rotated values for misaligned loads, doesn't it?
07:59:22 <madbr> newer arms have like 8 cycle penalty
07:59:33 <Fiora> I think you still have to use uanligned load instructions explicitly
07:59:34 <Fiora> otherwise it kabooms
07:59:45 <Bike> how would you do that? i thought int x; char y; int z; would put three words on the stack (assuming a int is a word)
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08:00:18 <mroman_> but you can still mess things up by pushing manually a single byte to the stack
08:00:19 <madbr> I'm not sure how different compilers align the stack
08:00:30 <Bike> You can do that in C?
08:00:31 <madbr> but often you need 8 or even 16 byte alignment
08:00:43 <Fiora> I don't think you can even do that in asm
08:00:48 <Fiora> there's no "push byte" instruction in x86 <.<
08:00:51 <Bike> I just, why would you even /want/ to do that.
08:01:04 <madbr> fiora: aren't there a zillion size prefixes?
08:01:05 <Fiora> I mean of course you could like, manually move a byte to the stack and decrement it
08:01:14 <Fiora> PUSH reg16 ; o16 50+r [8086]
08:01:15 <Fiora> PUSH reg32 ; o32 50+r [386]
08:01:18 <madbr> or you could just manually overwrite sp
08:01:24 <Fiora> "The operand-size attribute of the instruction determines whether the stack pointer is decremented by 2 or 4: this means that segment register pushes in BITS 32 mode will push 4 bytes on the stack, of which the upper two are undefined. If you need to override that, you can use an o16 or o32 prefix. "
08:01:46 <Fiora> there's no o8 prefix, so, I don't think push even supports it. which I guess makes sense because x86 never had <16-bit pointers
08:02:04 <Bike> I'm thinking maybe if you're going to be this cruel to your computer maybe the GC should just break their knees.
08:02:12 <madbr> yeah but x86 is horrible so I was half expecting a push byte instruction :D
08:02:23 <madbr> possibly even a 1-byte opcode for doing it
08:02:26 <Fiora> there's a "push imm8", but it pushes with the current bitness (or operand prefix bitness)
08:02:39 <Fiora> so it's just a nice short shortcut for pushing small numbers like zeroes
08:02:43 <Fiora> without using an imm32 <.<
08:03:04 <fizzie> There's also no push reg32 in long mode, while you can still do a push reg16 with the o16 prefix.
08:03:11 <madbr> there's no point except in function call stuff
08:03:37 <madbr> which is what stack instructions are for anyways, I guess
08:03:43 <fizzie> (So you can push 2 bytes, or 8, but not 4.)
08:03:52 <Fiora> fizzie: huh, did they do that to free up opcode space?
08:04:02 <Fiora> that's really weird
08:04:11 <fizzie> The manual doesn't give reasons, just facts. :p
08:04:34 <Fiora> I still love some of the really silly incongruencies
08:04:52 <Fiora> like the fact that nop is "xchg eax, eax" in 32-bit mode
08:04:56 <Fiora> but in 64-bit mode, they're not the same thing
08:05:06 <Fiora> because xchg eax, eax isn't a nop
08:05:12 <madbr> that's because you done have to do the horrible pipeline design that comes with that :D
08:05:20 <fizzie> Fiora: Possibly they did it so that you don't need a REX.W prefix for every PUSH, though?
08:05:40 <Fiora> fizzie: couldn't they make it default to 64-bit and 32-bit requires the address size prefix?
08:05:41 <madbr> isn't there one of the RISCs where mov is really OR rd, rs, rs
08:05:46 <Fiora> I remember there were some instructions that did that?
08:06:04 <madbr> or something like OR rd, rs, rzero
08:06:04 <fizzie> Fiora: I don't remember any examples, but I guess that's possible.
08:06:08 <Bike> madbr: isn't mov a pseudo for add ,,#0 on some ARM?
08:06:28 <Fiora> like, isn't using 32-bit memory operands in long mode, doesn't that require a prefix byte?
08:06:36 <Fiora> e.g. mov eax, [ebx]
08:07:03 <mroman_> PUSH : byte operand, immediate
08:07:16 <Fiora> Yeah, that's the push imm8
08:07:22 <fizzie> mroman_: Pushes a sign-extended value of either 2 or 4 bytes.
08:07:28 <Fiora> it actually decrements esp by 2, 4, or 8 though >.>
08:07:29 <Bike> Fiora explained imm8 up a ways.
08:07:45 <Bike> (and: so it is one-byte, huh)
08:08:01 <Fiora> that one actually feels like a reasonable one byte opcode
08:08:19 <Fiora> at least, maybe more reasonable than pusha <.<
08:09:30 <fizzie> Fiora: I was sort of assuming you couldn't write that at all, but apparently you can.
08:10:36 <fizzie> Fiora: No, mov eax, [ebx] in long mode. (And it does seem to result in what you said, a REX prefix with REX.W = 0.)
08:10:51 <Fiora> fizzie: the place I actually remember that coming up was when I was reading about x32
08:11:05 <Fiora> they wanted to use 32-bit pointers in long mode, but it requires adding a prefix to every single instruction
08:11:24 <Fiora> so instead you have to use 64-bit pointers where the top half is zero
08:11:40 <Fiora> except apparently gcc has trouble with that or something? I don't know much of it <_>
08:11:49 <Fiora> x32 is this new abi thing that's, like. x86_64 without the 64-bit
08:12:02 <shachaf> Doesn't that defeat the purpose of x32?
08:12:16 <Fiora> shachaf: I think the pointers are still stored as 32-bit
08:12:18 <fizzie> Fiora: Or actually there doesn't seem to be a REX prefix at all, I mislooked.
08:12:32 <Fiora> but like, when you address, you do [rax] instead of [eax] and just make sure the top is zero
08:12:48 <fizzie> Fiora: There's an old-fashioned 67h address-size override prefix instead.
08:13:29 <Fiora> so like, in 32-bit, 67h would mean 16-bit addressing, like mov ax, [bx]?
08:13:36 <Fiora> and in 64-bit it corresponds to mov eax, [ebx]?
08:13:37 <Bike> When I imagine x86 I imagine a Swiss Family Robinson style treehouse, with parts continually bursting into flame underneath as they build higher and higher on the broken remnants of what they slapped together last week.
08:13:48 <Fiora> that is a wonderful image XD
08:13:59 <fizzie> Fiora: So it seems: http://sprunge.us/CdVR
08:14:19 <Fiora> and I'm guessing you can't do mov ax, [bx] in 64-bit
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08:17:49 <fizzie> There's a table on the (8) possible combinations of REX.W, 66h and 67h, and the resulting effective operand and address sizes, in 64-bit mode.
08:18:41 <fizzie> You can get (16,32), (16,64), (32,32), (32,64), (64,32) and (64,64), but no others.
08:19:14 <fizzie> (There's some redundancy, because 66h is ignored if REX.W is present.)
08:20:06 <fizzie> A 16-bit address size in long mode doesn't sound very likely to be useful.
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08:25:07 <Fiora> then again a 32-bit one probably wasn't anticipated to be very useful either...
08:27:35 <fizzie> What's slightly interesting is that ndisasm -b 32 / -b 64 says that 66 67 8B 07 is mov ax, [bx] in 32-bit mode, but mov ax, [edi] in 64-bit mode.
08:28:19 <fizzie> Apparently an address size of 16 bits doesn't mean just the width, but also that it's the whole 16-bit deal, with different (more limited) ModRM encodings.
08:32:57 <Fiora> I didn't even know 16-bit had more limitations on r/m...
08:34:08 <Fiora> The mod field gives the length of the displacement field: 0 means no displacement, 1 means one byte, and 2 means two bytes.
08:34:11 <Fiora> The r/m field encodes the combination of registers to be added to the displacement to give the accessed address: 0 means BX+SI, 1 means BX+DI, 2 means BP+SI, 3 means BP+DI, 4 means SI only, 5 means DI only, 6 means BP only, and 7 means BX only.
08:34:16 <Fiora> However, there is a special case:
08:34:17 <mroman_> My 80186 reference says it's a byte push
08:34:18 <Fiora> If mod is 0 and r/m is 6, the effective address encoded is not [BP] as the above rules would suggest, but instead [disp16]: the displacement field is present and is two bytes long, and no registers are added to the displacement. "
08:34:23 <Fiora> wow. 32-bit addressing has spoiled me <.<
08:34:25 <Fiora> I think they retroactively changed it
08:35:08 <mroman_> I'm probably deploying an internal stack for compiled functions
08:35:31 <mroman_> and keep a list of all allocated things
08:35:47 <mroman_> then check that list against the pointers on the stack
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08:40:09 <fizzie> The special case means [bp] is encoded as [bp+0] and is longer than [bx]. (Of course it has the different default segment too.)
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09:21:09 <AgonyLang> After Hello World! every language needs a Quine, that's what I'm working on right now!
09:21:28 <AgonyLang> Working with a new language is hard, but fun
09:21:52 <shachaf> who are you and what are you doing here
09:22:10 <monqy> shachaf that's not how you welcome someone
09:22:34 <AgonyLang> Hi..? I'm Roy and I chat about esoteric languages
09:22:59 <shachaf> `run echo who are you and what are you doing here | colorize
09:23:01 <HackEgo> who are you and what are you doing here
09:23:02 <monqy> i'm monqy and shachaf chats about me
09:24:04 <shachaf> monqy: sometimes i chat to you instead
09:24:18 <AgonyLang> I've made a new brainfuck derivative (yes, sorry, I know)
09:24:55 <AgonyLang> And am now playing around with quines, using my languages self-modifying/reflection abilities
09:25:05 <shachaf> monqy: So is Haskell + RankNTypes + (forall p. p Char -> p Bool) sound?
09:25:13 <shachaf> (Disregarding recursion/undefined/etc.)
09:25:17 <AgonyLang> My first try resulted in a Quine which prints the result backwards, close... but wrong
09:26:09 <shachaf> monqy: I think it might be. :-(
09:26:13 <monqy> shachaf: that looks pretty yikes.....
09:27:10 <HackEgo> AGONYLANG: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
09:27:30 <monqy> AgonyLang: so is it the brainfuck that has the self-modifying/reflection abilities or is this two languages
09:28:03 <monqy> alt. is it a good brainfuck derivative alt. if it's good why is it a brainfuck derivative “set it free„
09:28:55 <AgonyLang> Agony is brainfuck backwards compatible and has a few added instructions, the code lives in the same space as the memory, but in a special way, everything can be executed making it fully self-modifying
09:29:57 <AgonyLang> Other bf self-modifying languages can read the code as characters, but that is silly because it can't execute that
09:30:06 <shachaf> You named the language after yourself?
09:31:14 <AgonyLang> It is named Agony because it is agonizing making bf programs which self-modify
09:35:20 <shachaf> monqy: What's the magic power GADTs give you over rank2types?
09:36:54 <monqy> if i had to guess it'd be the part where you have gadts
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13:20:22 <Sgeo> I'm going to go see if Worlds works in WINE
13:21:25 <Sgeo> Not really a fan of installing obsolete Java
13:31:50 <Sgeo> @tell Phantom_Hoover WorldsPlayer works great on WINE!
13:32:01 <Sgeo> @tell Phantom_Hoover Just install Java 6 on WINE first.
13:32:35 <Sgeo> Well, "great" is a bit of an exaggeration
13:32:50 <Sgeo> And.. it crashed
13:35:45 <Sgeo> Maybe I should upgrade WINE
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13:38:28 <Jafet> Yeah, Wine protects you from all those crazy Windows bugs.
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14:58:16 <boily> libreoffice 4! finally compiled, packaged, installed and running!
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15:09:10 <mroman_> freeing a list is more awkward than I thought :)
15:09:18 <mroman_> the list might be in itself
15:14:37 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/ukNYo5hq
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17:49:34 <ion> shachaf: FTL? You don’t need a keyboard at all, although having one is more convenient. I don’t remember any of the keys i have been using being → or End.
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17:51:58 <tromp_> > 0.095550537109375 - 29/32
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18:03:28 <tromp_> > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 13
18:03:30 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show GHC.Show.ShowS)
18:03:44 <lambdabot> (Integral a, Show a) => a -> (Int -> Char) -> a -> ShowS
18:03:47 <tromp_> > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 13 ""
18:04:35 -!- carado has joined.
18:05:52 <tromp_> > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 4216 ""
18:06:58 <tromp_> > length "1000001111000"
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18:12:26 <nooodl> > showIntAtBase 256 chr 79600447942433 ""
18:16:25 <FreeFull> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/19ntvz/school_of_haskell_goes_public_learning_and/c8pxxd0 I think he might be right
18:17:16 <FreeFull> > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 3 []
18:17:22 <FreeFull> > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 3 [[]]
18:17:23 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char'
18:18:40 <tromp_> > showDoubleAtBase 2 intToDigit 0.0643310546875 ""
18:19:11 <tromp_> could give a nice infinite list
18:28:28 <AnotherTest> I would learn more Haskell, if it wasn't for installing libraries being really annoying
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18:52:46 <FreeFull> AnotherTest: cabal install something not working right?
18:53:58 <AnotherTest> Well, I never manage to install a package without problems
18:54:06 <AnotherTest> I'm guessing it's because of me using an old version
18:54:59 <AnotherTest> it's pretty stupid, because I like to try to do some works on programs, but I can never start because I don't have the required packages installed, and installing them is pretty annoying
18:56:15 <boily> I organically built up a list of essential packages I like and can't live without. when borking my cabal setup, I just rm -rf everything, then type this long cabal update && cabal install ... line.
18:56:29 <boily> at least for the useful packages, their deps will kinda work. most of the time.
18:58:55 <boily> rm -rf .cabal/ .ghc/ && cabal update && cabal install whatever you like + what you're currently using.
18:58:55 <AnotherTest> What would I remove? Where are my haskell packages being stored anyway?
18:59:10 <boily> ^-- everything's stored into those two folders.
18:59:16 <AnotherTest> So, that would work? That would surprise me
18:59:27 <boily> trust me, I'm an engineer.
18:59:57 <AnotherTest> anyway, currently the problem looks like: dependencies
19:00:13 <boily> which can be cured by a good ol' rm -rf.
19:00:31 <boily> drastic, nasty, sudden, powerful, and leaves a nice minty perfume.
19:01:33 <boily> so you see, what I like to always have at hand is: cabal-dev, hlint, attoparsec, aeson, and probably hmatrix and pandoc too.
19:01:56 <boily> that too, but I haven't grokked them yet, so no default lens install on my machine.
19:02:04 <boily> (except for pure metasepia abuse, tho)
19:02:49 <boily> oh! note that cabal-dev won't work with modern cabal installations. mine comes from a hand tweak direct from the git repo.
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19:03:58 <elliott> I think a fixed version got released
19:04:09 <AnotherTest> what's the difference between parsec and attoparsec?
19:04:36 <boily> it's kinda not the same, quite.
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19:05:10 <boily> attoparsec has automagic backtracking.
19:05:22 <boily> I'm lazy, and can't be arsed to wrap my parsers with 'try'.
19:05:36 <boily> dunno. not my problem, really :p
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19:10:46 <AnotherTest> (I tried to install mtl, as I seem to need it)
19:11:20 <boily> you need mtl for what?
19:11:32 <AnotherTest> anyway, this has something to do with the failure package. I've asked help for this before in #haskell, and it worked, but then I kept getting problems with other stuff
19:12:15 <AnotherTest> I think debian has an mtl package though, could use that I guess
19:12:29 <elliott> AnotherTest: http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/sicp.xhtml
19:13:50 <AnotherTest> thanks, that doesn't make things work though
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19:14:26 <AnotherTest> "web-encodings" is going to fail installing too btw, as well as "statistics" I think
19:14:49 <elliott> I think if you read the whole page I linked you would be helped in terms of making things work.
19:14:56 <elliott> e.g., you would probably not try to use Debian's mtl package.
19:15:55 <elliott> I think you should probably read the page I linked before saying it doesn't help you
19:15:58 <elliott> since you clearly haven't...
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19:17:32 <AnotherTest> The information is definitely useful, and I will read it
19:17:44 <AnotherTest> although I'm sure it won't solve this problem in specific
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19:20:48 <boily> AnotherTest: I'm running cabal install hlint aeson attoparsec primes hmatrix lens comonad pandoc hakyll gamma diagrams gloss mueval logict
19:20:59 <boily> mtl is probably a dependency of something in that.
19:22:54 <AnotherTest> Because I'm using .8, and it tells me to update
19:23:15 <AnotherTest> because I should use cabal for that, but cabal doesn't wokr
19:24:38 <boily> cabal-install version 1.16.0.2 \ using version 1.16.0 of the Cabal library
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19:27:46 <AnotherTest> also, elliott, I read the webpage, and it didn't fix my problem
19:28:51 <elliott> at this point I don't care
19:29:26 <AnotherTest> You never care, I know. Although that really doesn't matter to me either. You wanted me to read it, I read it. Didn't help me.
19:29:57 <AnotherTest> Alright so I shouldn't use the debian packages
19:30:15 <AnotherTest> I'm currently not doing that, so it shouldn't be the problem
19:31:16 <AnotherTest> boily: I'm trying to update once again. I hope it works this time.
19:31:42 <elliott> if you read the page then it will almost certainly give enough information to understand your dependency problem and will hence help you solve that problem in a way other than blind guesswork. if your problem isn't solved then I suspect it is simply because you are not paying very much attention to the page, given that you didn't even read it before dismissing it at first
19:32:49 <AnotherTest> Well, I do not see anything in the text that points to my particular setup as the cause of this problem
19:33:28 <AnotherTest> I've cleaned all my formerly installed packages, so it's like I'm starting from the beginning again
19:35:18 <AnotherTest> I honestly believe that if I can update to a newer version of cabal, that this will work
19:36:00 <AnotherTest> btw, is it normal that cabal install cabal-install also installs a bunch of packages (eg it just successfully installed mtl)
19:36:12 <AnotherTest> Or is that because it depends on those itself?
19:36:50 <elliott> updating Cabal can often a bad idea. updating cabal-install is something else entirely that may not be a bad idea
19:37:27 <elliott> in particular, if you do "cabal install cabal-install", then you already have cabal-install installed, possibly from your distro's package manager
19:37:31 <elliott> and upgrading it locally may be a bad idea
19:37:49 <AnotherTest> Well, cabal told me to update cabal-install
19:37:51 <elliott> (using cabal-install from package manager is fine: it is just a program, incidentally written in Haskell, not something you'll actually link to. i.e. you can imagine it being written in Python instead)
19:38:40 <AnotherTest> Ok I managed to update cabal-install it seems
19:40:02 <boily> you can grab a look at what you have installed in .cabal/bin and .cabal/lib.
19:41:25 <AnotherTest> and in lib I have mtl, cabal, parsec, http, network and transformers
19:41:32 <AnotherTest> which seemed to be all the problematic packages
19:42:18 <AnotherTest> if I run cabal update, it tells me again that "there is a new version of cabal-install available"
19:42:42 <AnotherTest> Although it told me that cabal-install had been successfully installed before
19:44:39 <AnotherTest> noise is usually ignored, so let's do just that
19:49:56 <boily> I just had to tweak web-encodings. its constrains on bytestring, failure and directory were too restrictive.
19:50:10 <boily> (besides, I have transformers 0.3.0.0 now)
19:50:11 <AnotherTest> yeah, someone told me to do that earlier too
19:52:48 <boily> I now have burlesque on my machine.
19:53:44 <AnotherTest> um, to install the unpacked package, do I run cabal install in that directory?
19:54:07 <boily> cabal configure && cabal build && cabal install.
19:54:48 <boily> it's more feng shui that way.
19:55:41 <AnotherTest> why does this all feel worse than having to compile gcc manually?
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20:54:49 <Sgeo> kmc, http://bradconte.com/files/misc/HackerNewsParodyThread/
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21:01:21 <AgonyLang> After Hello World! and a Quine.... what is the next thing every language needs to have? :)
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21:02:17 <Sgeo> If you manage 99 bottles of beer too, you will... have still proved nothing interesting about your language
21:02:48 <AgonyLang> Yeah, I know, not trying to prove anything
21:03:21 <Taneb> After 99 bottles of beer, see if you can increment the accumulator
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21:13:42 <nooodl> AgonyLang: brainfuck interpreter!
21:14:15 <oerjan> `addquote <Bike> When I imagine x86 I imagine a Swiss Family Robinson style treehouse, with parts continually bursting into flame underneath as they build higher and higher on the broken remnants of what they slapped together last week.
21:14:21 <HackEgo> 979) <Bike> When I imagine x86 I imagine a Swiss Family Robinson style treehouse, with parts continually bursting into flame underneath as they build higher and higher on the broken remnants of what they slapped together last week.
21:15:21 <tromp_> if you're ambitious, a self interpreter
21:16:06 <oerjan> just do fractran, it's like prime number sieve except TC
21:16:14 <Sgeo> I made a language that makes it easy to write a compiler for that language
21:16:19 <AgonyLang> tromp_ It might not be that hard, the language is self modifying, to it only needs to parse the input into runtime
21:16:22 <Sgeo> Erm, within the language
21:16:53 <AgonyLang> tromp_ Nice idea, I'll try a self-interpreter
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21:18:14 <oerjan> <AgonyLang> Hi..? I'm Roy and I chat about esoteric languages <-- so do we have a 12 step program yet?
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21:20:02 <oerjan> <shachaf> monqy: So is Haskell + RankNTypes + (forall p. p Char -> p Bool) sound?
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21:20:31 <oerjan> hm _is_ there any p such that you cannot make a function of type p Char -> p Bool ?
21:20:40 <AgonyLang> My life has never been manageable, so for starters I'll admit my life is unmanageble
21:20:53 <oerjan> (in report haskell + rankntypes, presumably)
21:21:04 <oerjan> (as it's probably easy with type families and stuff)
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21:21:19 <elliott> AgonyLang: you should meet a certain itidus20
21:21:49 <shachaf> That's a bit circular, though. :-)
21:21:54 <shachaf> IORef isn't in the report.
21:22:11 <elliott> well it has stableptr and stuff
21:22:15 <oerjan> i don't think it is, although the FFI is
21:22:21 <elliott> it holds for all ADTs, anyway
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21:22:30 <shachaf> Look, the FFI and IORef don't really count.
21:22:31 <Sgeo> I don't get the Char -> Bool thing?
21:22:52 <shachaf> oerjan: For any type made up of just sums/product/exponents you can make it.
21:23:02 <oerjan> shachaf: Is Char is obviously something you need type equality for, i.e. type families or gadts afaiu
21:23:34 <oerjan> right. i think that's essentially a variation of parametricity?
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21:24:05 <elliott> oerjan: you can express Is with rank-2
21:24:14 <elliott> type Is a b = forall p. p a -> p b
21:24:20 <shachaf> oerjan: I mean Leibniz Is.
21:24:21 <elliott> (hence (forall p. p Char -> p Bool) is Is Char Bool)
21:25:07 <Taneb> Help, accessing C++ code in Haskell is scary
21:25:11 <elliott> anyway, type families do get you Is Char Bool -> Void
21:25:18 <oerjan> so basically it's a question of whether rankntypes are consistent with Char being Bool
21:25:19 <elliott> GADTs sort of do, but only because of a quirk of GHC's implementation
21:25:37 <elliott> as in, the term you write that exhibits Void there has an omitted pattern match that GHC agrees with you is impossible
21:25:39 <shachaf> elliott: I think it's not really a quirk.
21:25:57 <shachaf> At least, it's very much on purpose and along the lines of the intended use of GADTs.
21:26:27 <oerjan> afaiu people complain whenever ghc _doesn't_ realize a gadt pattern is unreachable
21:26:44 <shachaf> Yes, but elliott doesn't like to go with the flow.
21:27:31 <elliott> shachaf: I don't see why GADTs = type equality + existential quantification + an extra axiom.
21:27:40 <elliott> But sure, I'll agree it's convenient.
21:27:52 <elliott> It stops you adding, e.g. univalence. So it's definitely not harmless.
21:27:59 <shachaf> elliott: What is the axiom?
21:28:07 <elliott> oerjan: It's not unreachable if you have extra equalities, like Char = Bool
21:28:13 <elliott> shachaf: ConcreteTypeA =/= ConcreteTypeB
21:28:32 <shachaf> How would you phrase that axiom?
21:28:34 <elliott> (Note that if you make the term polymorphic in the types A and B (i.e. they're no longer concrete), the warning reappears.)
21:28:42 <elliott> shachaf: I'm not sure it's a well-founded axiom.
21:28:46 <elliott> Which is also a strike against it.
21:29:32 <oerjan> um without it type class lookup isn't sound either :P
21:29:53 <Sgeo> type equality is the thing that breaks with generalized newtype deriving, right?
21:29:55 <oerjan> everything becomes overlapping
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21:31:11 <elliott> Yes, the context is generalised newtype deriving.
21:31:22 <elliott> But I think it's a misleading context.
21:31:34 <elliott> oerjan: Right, typeclasses are the thing being ignored.
21:31:41 <elliott> But all you lose is nice properties about typeclasses, I think.
21:31:46 <elliott> i.e. instance selection becomes ambiguous.
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21:32:38 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:32:43 <lambdabot> Taneb said 9h 23m 29s ago: Just because I created it doesn't mean I do.
21:32:55 <Taneb> (context is Fueue and knowing much about it)
21:33:01 <Arc_Koen> well then that makes the two of us
21:33:30 <Arc_Koen> though elliott is trying to mislead me
21:33:55 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
21:33:59 <Taneb> The same applies to that
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21:34:36 <Taneb> `learn context is a word with many meanings, depending on where it is used.
21:34:42 <shachaf> You should've thought of that *before* inventing D-modules, Taneb.
21:34:51 <shachaf> Also what happened to being bold and daring?
21:35:03 <Taneb> shachaf, it got boring after a while
21:35:11 <Arc_Koen> and we dare recognize our ignorance
21:35:28 <Arc_Koen> don't you have that saying in english? "have the courage to flee"
21:35:40 <metasepia> D'ald was a Klingon general in the early 25th century.
21:35:54 <Arc_Koen> 25th century seems very late to me
21:36:14 <Taneb> It's like 150 years after Duck Dodgers
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21:48:29 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: Taneb: i thought i'd written up solutions to most of what makes Fueue harder than Underload in the "Fueue tips" and "Truth-machine" sections. of course, there aren't that many others able to program underload either...
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21:53:08 <oerjan> i should stop making people flee, i guess
21:54:01 <boily> in which way have you become a people fleeer?
21:54:45 <oerjan> well Taneb obviously fled my attempt to encourage him to try programming Fueue.
21:56:02 <oerjan> sheer horror, i assume
21:56:15 <oerjan> of the monster he created
21:56:39 <boily> nothing that a little bit of soy sauce, garlic and ginger can't help.
21:56:47 <oerjan> with a name like Nathan van Doom, how can you do otherwise.
21:57:17 <Arc_Koen> Nathan van Doom... is that a mix between Sinistro and Dr Doom?
21:57:34 <oerjan> i don't know sinistro and barely dr doom
21:59:57 <oerjan> @hoogle Int -> Double -> (Int -> Char) -> String -> String
22:09:53 <oerjan> @tell AnotherTest <AnotherTest> if I run cabal update, it tells me again that "there is a new version of cabal-install available" <-- i have got the same on windows. i suspect it's just an effect of cabal doing no actual registration of non-library packages (i.e. it cannot actually _know_ you haven't already installed the latest version. although giving the message anyhow does sound remarkably stupid so maybe it has a way to try to check, which fail
22:10:28 <oerjan> @tell AnotherTest which fails...)
22:10:53 <elliott> my suspicion: his version is old.
22:10:54 * oerjan is counting on elliott to tell him if he's horribly wrong.
22:10:57 <elliott> he is running an old version.
22:11:07 <elliott> he has maybe installed a new cabal-install with his cabal-install. if he did, he is not running it
22:11:14 <elliott> (e.g. it is further down or completely absent from the $PATH)
22:11:29 <elliott> it does have a way to check, yes
22:11:40 <oerjan> well, i just mentioned istr having the same issue of being told there's a new version just after installing it
22:11:43 <elliott> I mean, cabal-install knows its own version, so checking if there's a newer one on Hackage is not hard :P
22:11:52 <elliott> it's not part of a general "these packages are outdated" thing afaik
22:12:20 <oerjan> @tell AnotherTest As Expected, elliott disagrees with me. :)
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23:00:50 <Sgeo> Why did I think dots were optional in the user portion of gmail addresses?
23:01:45 <Sgeo> Oh, I see what's going on
23:02:06 <Sgeo> It is getting in but just not being directed to my primary account
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23:05:20 <Sgeo> Hi Phantom_Hoover. WorldsPlayer somewhat works on WINE
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23:33:41 <Sgeo> Maybe if I go to Penn Station every day I'll eat more.
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00:10:21 <FreeFull> I wish haskell would allow you to write something like 3 < length xs and have it terminate as soon as the answer is known.
00:11:08 <elliott> s/length/genericLength/ and define the type of lazy conatural numbers
00:11:14 <elliott> however you should not be using length at all generally
00:11:46 <FreeFull> Would lazy conatural numbers be as efficient?
00:12:22 <shachaf> @let voided n = replicate n ()
00:13:02 <shachaf> length with lazy nats isn't necessarily bad.
00:13:29 <shachaf> genericTake (genericLength xs) ys is clearer than zipWith const xs ys, is it not?
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00:14:20 <FreeFull> shachaf: Maybe if you used an alternate prelude
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00:56:44 <TeruFSX> does haskell let you do eager evaluation ever
00:57:05 <elliott> depending on what that means
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02:10:10 <Sgeo> If anyone didn't know this, I nostalgia quite easily.
02:10:19 <Sgeo> Listening to Enya is a pretty good way to trigger that.
02:14:59 <Sgeo> (Yes, there might be people who are unaware of my proclivities of falling into nostaliga. Bike, kmc and shachaf are fairly new here)
02:15:23 <elliott> thank god they're filled in now
02:15:32 <shachaf> You don't need to tell Bike that kmc and I are fairly new here.
02:15:39 <shachaf> I'm sure everyone knows that.
02:15:52 <shachaf> elliott: no dont do it.......
02:16:13 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.22268
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02:17:15 <elliott> I like how shachaf has technically been here longer than PH
02:17:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28554
02:17:39 <elliott> 2011-01-04.txt:17:01:10: <shachaf> elliott: Dwarf Fortress? Minecraft? What about your liberty?
02:17:42 <elliott> 2011-01-04.txt:17:02:39: <shachaf> elliott: Dwarf Fortress doesn't provide the source code. Minecraft doesn't even provide the binary without payment.
02:17:52 <elliott> shachaf: i can't tell if this was a joke or not
02:18:03 <shachaf> If I said "What about your liberty" it was probably a joke.
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02:18:41 <Sgeo> `pastelogs nostalgia
02:18:48 <elliott> 2011-05-26.txt:07:35:35: <shachaf> oerjan: What ar eyou doing in this channel instead of #haskell? :-)
02:18:57 <shachaf> elliott: It's OK, we get it.
02:19:03 <shachaf> You can stop quoting oldshachaf.
02:19:04 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32092
02:19:07 <elliott> don't worry. I can only read at most 300 of these lines.
02:19:19 <shachaf> (Actually oldshachaf is/was younger than I am?)
02:19:26 <shachaf> (Maybe it should be youngshachaf.)
02:19:54 <elliott> 2011-08-13.txt:02:18:16: <elliott> shachaf: Shut up my number keys are broken.
02:20:28 <Sgeo> 2009-10-30.txt:22:19:12: <Sgeo> I have search-software-related nostalgia now
02:20:49 <elliott> shachaf: my offer to delete logs for money stands!!!
02:20:58 <shachaf> elliott: You can't delete #esoteric logs for money.
02:20:58 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9922
02:21:10 <elliott> are you really going to waste your time reading 300 dumb things i said in the past as revenge
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02:22:56 <Sgeo> Am... I having nostalgia for my past bouts of nostalgia???
02:23:05 <shachaf> You would be the only one.
02:27:50 <oerjan> i think i used to have bouts of nostalgia
02:28:08 <Sgeo> Hey, I didn't choose my college for nostalgic purposes! ... I didn't really choose my college at all
02:28:37 <Sgeo> And yes, there totally was a college that I had nostalgic feelings for before I entered college
02:28:42 <elliott> sgeo thats the saddest thing youve ever said
02:31:11 <Bike> you'r ehaving nostalgia for having nostalgia fora school you never actually enrolled in?
02:33:16 <Sgeo> No recursive nostalgia.
02:33:43 <Sgeo> And the college in question had a summer day camp that I went to for 3 years
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02:45:27 <HackEgo> mad: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:47:55 <mad> trying to see if I can pipeline my staggered-SIMD risc cpu design :D (and produce something ressembling verilog)
02:49:01 <mad> I need some non-insane ways of dealing with memory aliasing faults and split branch faults
02:53:05 <mad> like, horrible CPUs like the P2 can do it because nothing you do is real, everything you do is speculative branch predicted register renamed reordered
02:53:16 <mad> horrible/awesome :D
02:53:49 <mad> like, if you have a loop
02:53:56 <mad> cpu core 1 is on iteration 1
02:53:59 <mad> cpu core 2 is on iteration 2
02:54:02 <mad> cpu core 3 is on iteration 3
02:54:06 <mad> cpu core 4 is on iteration 4
02:54:27 <mad> cpu core 1 takes a branch
02:54:41 <mad> but, say, cpu core 4 doesn't take the branch
02:55:34 <mad> since there's only 1 scheduler (on core 1), core 4 must stop processing
02:55:49 <mad> how do you present that to the programmer
02:55:55 <mad> in a way that makes any sense at all
02:57:36 <mad> like, his loop bails midway
02:57:51 <mad> it's either some jump that makes no sense and happens randomly
02:58:28 <mad> or core 4 goes into dormant state and then you never know how many cores will be still active, so you don't know what register file to feedback values from
03:03:27 <mad> dealing with memory aliasing isn't beeter
03:04:10 <mad> it's like, you have to lock your write destination addresses before you read anything in the loop (well, anything that could alias)
03:05:10 <mad> then if a read lands on one of these you know there's an alias and you can bail... but then once again you have a random jump out of the blue that you have to recover from
03:05:28 <shachaf> Sgeo: Is today the ninth day of the olist sequence?
03:05:43 <Sgeo> shachaf, I believe so.
03:05:53 <Sgeo> Assuming that there is an update today, haven't seen one yet
03:06:08 <shachaf> So if there's no update then there'll be a nine-day sequence some other time?
03:06:32 <Sgeo> 871-878 is the current days-in-a-row sequence
03:07:27 <shachaf> Sgeo: What's the problem with vampires anyway? Why don't people like them?
03:07:40 <mad> they're for girls
03:07:53 <Sgeo> I assume they're Evil.
03:08:03 <Sgeo> Although people like Belkar just fine.
03:08:07 <Sgeo> I don't play D&D, sorry.
03:09:34 <mad> They always rubbed me wrong
03:10:10 <monqy> http://www.supermegacomics.com/images/386.gif
03:12:06 <shachaf> monqy: is supermegacomics where you got your style
03:12:12 <shachaf> or did supermegacomics get it from you
03:12:21 <monqy> i dont think either of those are true
03:12:56 <shachaf> monqy: by the law of excluded middle one of them has to be true
03:13:18 <monqy> i dont think thats how that works shachaf.....................................
03:18:44 <mad> is the opcode dest, src ordering of operands in x86 and ARM assembly some kind of ergativity
03:20:12 <shachaf> http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=302
03:20:42 <Bike> ergativity...?
03:22:18 <mad> it's a linguistics term
03:23:14 <Bike> well, i doubt assembler designers know linguistics above a superficial level
03:23:27 <mad> it refers to languages where the subjects of intransitive verbs have the same case as objects of transitive verbs
03:23:38 <mad> so they're essentially always in passive voice
03:23:43 <Bike> yeah i thought you meant ergodic theory for some stupid reason
03:25:03 <shachaf> http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=317
03:26:18 <Fiora> I guess that would mean asm would have, like, a VSO order?
03:26:49 <mad> C would probably be SVO
03:27:00 <shachaf> or is that linguistics make me sad?
03:27:01 <Fiora> well I guess ARM would be VSOO
03:27:02 <mad> forth would be SOV of course
03:27:08 <Bike> linguistics is cool, but programming languages are nothing like natural languages usually.
03:27:13 <Fiora> x86 would be weird some some instructions use their destination as input, while some don't
03:27:24 <shachaf> SVO would be some OO language thing.
03:27:32 <Fiora> whereas that isn't true in ARM... well except for weird things like vtrn
03:28:19 <mad> doesn't arm has same order for opcodes as intel?
03:28:46 <mad> aside from having 3 argument opcodes
03:29:10 <mad> instead of having only 2 argument opcodes that are really 3 arguments due to the aggressive register renaming
03:29:59 <Fiora> yeah, but like, it has op dst, src1, src2
03:30:04 <Fiora> x86 has op dst, src
03:30:15 <Fiora> so lots of x86 instructions use both dst and src as input
03:30:24 <Fiora> but on arm dst is almost never an input I think?
03:31:31 <mad> arm as op dst, src
03:31:48 <mad> but it's just a shortcut for op dst, src1=dst, src2
03:32:04 <mad> and it assembles to the 3 operand operation
03:35:37 <mad> I think stores are reversed tho
03:36:30 <mad> (on ARM, not on x86 since they can't because for some reason there are read-modify versions of the opcodes)
03:37:30 <kmc> x86 has op dst, src or else op %src, %dst ;P
03:38:16 <mad> gcc assembly syntax doesn't count
03:38:20 <mad> it's impossible to read
03:38:23 <Bike> is intel syntax CFGable? could you use a regular expression
03:38:36 <kmc> it is pretty bad
03:38:39 <Bike> could it be the link anti-chomkyists are looking for
03:38:56 <kmc> x86 does have a few three-operand instructions by now as well
03:39:04 <Fiora> well, all of AVX XD
03:39:10 <kmc> also some where one is implicitly fixed (like edx:eax for mul/div)
03:39:15 <mad> after 30 years of resistance from intel yes
03:39:18 <shachaf> Also a 3-operand addition instruction!
03:39:20 <Fiora> and imul reg,reg,imm if an immediate counts
03:39:31 <kmc> shachaf: you mean LEA? ;)
03:39:33 <Fiora> and FMA4, vpperm are 4-op because AMD
03:39:43 <kmc> not just addition! reg + {1,2,4}*reg + imm
03:39:53 <Bike> good instruction, that
03:39:58 <Fiora> there's some implicit 3-op ones like pblendvb that use hardcoded xmm0 <.<
03:40:22 <shachaf> If I remember correctly "x86 has a 3-operand addition instruction" was a factor in the design of Salsa20.
03:40:35 <Bike> i still can't understand how the fuck you can remember "pblendvb"
03:40:46 <Fiora> packed, blend, variable, bytes
03:41:02 <Bike> it's impossible
03:41:06 <shachaf> «I chose “xor a rotated sum” over “add a rotated xor” for simple performance reasons: the x86 architecture has a three-operand addition (LEA) but not a three-operand xor.»
03:41:26 <shachaf> I wonder how much of a difference that actually makes.
03:41:28 <Fiora> lemme see the most registers I can use in one instruction...
03:41:52 <Fiora> vpperm xmm0, xmm1, xmm2, [rax+rbx*8+0xDEADBEEF]
03:41:57 <Fiora> 5 regs, I think, I don't think one can beat that XD
03:42:37 <mad> you can have both a displacement immediate and a displacement register?
03:43:12 <mad> I thought it was either/or
03:43:44 <Fiora> shachaf: ... that is TECHNICALLY TRUE
03:43:46 <kmc> that's 5 GP regs but also %ds!
03:43:51 <kmc> and %cs arguably
03:43:54 <kmc> and Others
03:44:09 <mad> in that case it still loses to ARM :D
03:44:14 <kmc> %cr3 arguably
03:44:18 <mad> due to LDRM and stuff like VLDM
03:44:21 <kmc> now i'm just being silly
03:44:26 <Fiora> though. vzeroupper affects -16- registers.
03:44:29 <Bike> !!?!????!??!??????
03:44:57 <Bike> maybe i should pretend to learn lojban again, it had syntax vaguely analogous to that of programming languages
03:45:19 <shachaf> tswett: Tell Bike not to do it.
03:45:50 <Fiora> oh. xsave wins even more XD
03:46:41 <tswett> As long as he's only pretending, it's okay.
03:46:55 <Bike> considering there aren't speakers i doubt i could learn even if i tried
03:46:58 <Fiora> it saves x87 FPU state, MMX state, SSE state, MXCSR...
03:47:46 <shachaf> That's just a cheap plastic imitation of pusha!
03:47:58 <tswett> I think there's at least one fluent speaker.
03:48:14 <tswett> No native speakers, unless you count Robin Lee Powell's twin daughters.
03:48:26 <tswett> Frances and Kelly. I don't know whether or not their last name is Powell.
03:49:06 <tswett> They have three parents, one of whom (RLP) has been speaking to them exclusively in Lojban. I think they're now between 1 and 2 years old.
03:49:33 <Fiora> that's kind of a cruel experiment :/
03:49:49 <tswett> Fiora: *shrug* They still have the usual number of English-speaking parents.
03:49:55 <mad> I kinda remember hearing about one like that but for... I think it was klingon
03:50:09 <Fiora> I was thinking they were -only- speaking lojban <.<
03:50:20 <Bike> it's amazing how fast linguistics experiments run into language experiments. if you'd told me the study of language got a lot of its weirder data from mentally ill children i wouldn't have believed you
03:50:27 <tswett> IIRC, they realized that Klingon just isn't usable as a day-to-day language.
03:50:49 <Bike> having one parent talk in a language probably won't let you learn it too well, anyhow
03:50:57 <mad> tswett: missing vocabulary?
03:50:58 <Bike> klingon's probably missing a lot of vocabulary?
03:51:11 <Bike> it's like i'm reverse psychic
03:51:37 <tswett> And I've heard that yeah, a kid just won't really learn a language if the only person they know who speaks it is one parent.
03:52:04 <Bike> see also, second generation immigrant children
03:53:52 <mad> kinda wonder if klingon is "compact" or not, too
03:54:07 <tswett> If every open cover of it has a finite subcover.
03:54:36 <mad> bike: as in has low-ish number of syllables for the more common things you might want to say
03:55:05 <Bike> Oh. Like a natural language.
03:55:45 <Fiora> so, like, good huffman coding I guess?
03:56:50 <Bike> hm, i don't think i've actually read anything rigorous about information theory and linguistics. minimum description length something something bayes
03:57:38 <shachaf> intel\ combined\ manual.pdf is so awkward to use. :-(
03:58:57 <Fiora> that must be gigantic
03:59:58 <Bike> Is there a big fancy hypertext?
04:03:03 <tswett> Is there a nice and simple assembly language that is nevertheless very much usable?
04:03:11 <tswett> MIPS, perhaps, or something simpler.
04:03:26 <tswett> Whose specification is freely available online, and short.
04:03:29 <mad> yeah, RISC instruction sets
04:03:31 <Bike> MIPS is the usual for pedagogy
04:03:34 <tswett> Like 50 pages or something.
04:03:42 <oerjan> <shachaf> Sgeo: What's the problem with vampires anyway? Why don't people like them? <-- well _i_ like malack...
04:04:53 <mad> vampires are probably going to be out of style before too long
04:05:25 <Fiora> MIPS is relatively simple but still has some idiosynchracies I guess
04:05:44 <mad> everything has idiosyncracies
04:06:01 <Fiora> like delay slots and the mul/div thing and hazards and whatevers
04:06:07 <mad> that's what the ARM guy was saying anyways
04:06:13 <mad> all architectures have warts
04:06:36 <mad> also all architectures have hazards :D
04:06:48 <Fiora> ARM seems relatively low on warts, but the instruction set is pretty gargantuan
04:06:51 <Bike> well, you could use MIX or something.
04:06:53 <Bike> hope you like bcd
04:07:07 <mad> bcd is a wart all by itself :D
04:08:27 <mad> delay slots make sense in the "486" generation
04:08:39 <mad> ie before you have branch prediction
04:09:09 <Fiora> yeah, they make -sense-, they're just. I guess, one extra messy thing to worry about when learning
04:10:01 <Bike> would learning a machine without understanding branch prediction be worth it? (I did not learn branch prediction)
04:10:07 <shachaf> Is there a better way to look things up than intel\ combined\ manual.pdf?
04:10:31 <mad> bike : you could start with an old arm that doesn't have branch prediction :3
04:11:21 <Fiora> http://www.intel.com/content/dam/doc/manual/64-ia-32-architectures-software-developer-instruction-set-reference-manual-325383.pdf this thing has it listed by instruction ?
04:11:38 <Fiora> personally I kinda feel http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/DeveloperTools/nasm/nasmdocb.html is more succinct and easy to read even though it's not quite complete
04:11:44 <Bike> what about geek32
04:11:52 <shachaf> That's just section something-something of the combined manual.
04:12:14 <mad> ahaha hate PDF instruction manuals
04:12:24 <mad> why do they make PDF instruction manuals anyways
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04:12:32 <Fiora> is it wrong if I like them :<
04:13:22 <mad> how do you search them
04:13:29 <Fiora> it's... alphabetical
04:13:31 <mad> also most pdf readers are laggy
04:13:35 <Fiora> and it has a table of contents on the left
04:13:51 <Fiora> I use the built in firefox one... <.<
04:13:51 <mad> still worse than just a framed webpage
04:14:37 * mad opens the table of contents on the ia32 manual
04:14:43 <mad> gread it's not wide enough
04:14:51 <shachaf> :33 < it's purrty bad, Firoara
04:14:52 <mad> half of the text is cutoff and I can't widen it
04:14:55 <Fiora> I don't know why firefox doesn't let me resize it
04:14:57 <Fiora> it's really annoying
04:15:05 <shachaf> Hmm, :< isn't even part of that.
04:15:16 * shachaf maintains that there are only two smiley faces in the world.
04:16:20 <Fiora> :33 < pdfs arent purrfect but, waterever, they fit whale into my roetine, even if crappie
04:17:59 <Fiora> am I not allowed to be fefeta :<
04:18:13 <Bike> no i mean what is "roetine" a pun on, I get "routine" but
04:18:27 <Bike> Kind of pasta.
04:18:40 <Fiora> what you get when you combine feferi (fish puns) with nepeta (cat puns)
04:19:14 <shachaf> What do you get when you combine them with Scooby Doo puns?
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04:20:11 <Fiora> ummm more seriously http://ref.x86asm.net/coder64-abc.html is a table reference
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04:20:55 <mad> right... I like how you have to sort opcodes as "useful" or "useless"
04:22:12 <mad> ie the ones that are vaguely risc-like and you can do lots of
04:22:32 <Fiora> I think there's only a few old instructions like that
04:22:34 <mad> vs the ones that are cisc and have all sorts of penalties and don't pair on the pentium
04:22:38 <Fiora> er, the ones that you should avoid
04:22:50 <mad> all 16bit and 8bit opcodes should be avoided afaik
04:22:57 <mad> except movsx and movzx
04:23:02 <Fiora> using 8-bit and 16-bit stuff is okay, I think? I do it all the time...
04:23:12 <Fiora> there's some exceptions (like, you need to avoid flag merging penalties)
04:23:17 <mad> afaik the register renaming hates it
04:23:17 <Fiora> but, like, setCC is 8-bit only and you kinda need that
04:23:25 <Fiora> yeah, it's bad if you trigger hte merging penalties
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04:23:52 <mad> also they are mostly useless anyways
04:24:12 <Fiora> but setCC is 8-bit only :<
04:24:39 <mad> is that something they added on the p2?
04:24:40 <Fiora> setc, sete, and so on?
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04:25:08 <Fiora> int a = b == c; gets compiled as
04:25:11 <shachaf> And I thought getCC was bad!
04:25:23 <mad> first time I see that
04:26:52 <Bike> set current continuation would just be invoking the continuation. oh nooooo
04:29:12 <shachaf> By the way, continuations aren't functions.
04:29:32 <shachaf> http://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/undelimited.html
04:29:37 <shachaf> Not that you said they are.
04:29:55 <Bike> i suppose scheme's pretending they are is related to them being "procedures" instead
04:30:22 <Fiora> okies I kinda tried to make a list of the things not to use
04:30:44 <Fiora> it's probably not perfect but: AAA/AAS/AAM/AAD/DAA/DAS (bcd instructions), BOUND, ENTER, J(E)CXZ, LOOP*, MOVS*, RC*, SCAS*, XLATB
04:30:59 <Bike> xlatb sounds exciting.
04:31:05 <Bike> I bet it calculated latitude in binary.
04:32:07 <Fiora> "XLATB adds the value in AL, treated as an unsigned byte, to BX or EBX, and loads the byte from the resulting address (in the segment specified by DS) back into AL. "
04:32:13 <Fiora> I think it only existed because the 8086 had like, no addressing modes
04:33:02 <Bike> I think I'm going to write a fanfiction where Bletchley Park never happened, and computers end up being developed only by the Kriegsmarine.
04:35:07 <elliott> Bike: is that a fanfiction for... life
04:35:15 <Fiora> historical fiction?
04:35:21 <Fiora> ... alternate history fic?
04:36:00 <Bike> Well, the seventh book introduces Nepeta Leijon.
04:36:46 <mad> fiora : what about everything that involves segment registers? :D
04:37:10 <Fiora> I don't think you can even use those in 32-bit protected mode? XD
04:37:57 <mad> actually you can
04:38:19 <mad> maybe not in paged mode tho
04:38:22 <Fiora> can you even set them outside of ring0?
04:38:49 <mad> it probably adds on a penalty if you set a segment that doesn't start at 0 too
04:39:25 <Fiora> I think I remember reading it adds 1 clock cycle latency to loads on recent intel
04:39:41 <Fiora> it's not actually that bad, I think fs/gs stuff gets used for things like native client?
04:40:23 <Fiora> I've never done anything with it so don't trust me I'm probably totally clueless
04:42:10 <mad> all I remember is that in djgpp (32bit dos version of gcc) you could have it set gs to a segment that overlaps all RAM
04:42:22 <mad> and overwrite everything willy nilly :D
04:42:51 <mad> tho you had to use that hack to write to VRAM too
04:44:10 <mad> write garbage to 0xa0000 -> yay pretty garbage on the screen :D
04:45:50 <mad> writing code for that was pretty fun actually
04:49:10 <mad> that impression of power you get from writing straight to the metal is nice
04:49:33 <mad> rather than having 213423 layers of abstraction and you never know anything about what's happening
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05:18:00 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo
05:19:06 <Sgeo> oerjan, for your benefit: The new comic is 879
05:20:05 -!- Frooxius has joined.
05:21:10 <Sgeo> Also the website is broken
05:21:29 <Sgeo> Or, it was, briefly
05:22:12 <Sgeo> "Also, this is the last of the 9-in-a-row, so there won't be any more until next week while I try to catch up on other work."
05:25:21 <shachaf> the o in olist stands for oerjan
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05:29:46 <doesthiswork> do you know where I can read about Lagrangian Probability Distributions, all the google results seem to be books
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05:32:40 <Bike> Is that a distribution named after Lagrange or a distribution over Lagrangians or a Lagrangian of probabilities
05:33:39 <doesthiswork> I have no idea, its what you get when you take some random subsets of random binary trees
05:34:20 <doesthiswork> the distribution of sizes is supposed to be a lagrange distribution
05:36:54 <Bike> I've never heard of a "Lagrange distrubition" in common use...
05:38:54 <doesthiswork> i'll have to go back and bug the professor then
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05:55:16 <mad> how would you do something like SSE branch
05:55:43 <mad> like, if across your 4 units the condition is false, don't branch
05:55:54 <mad> if across your 4 units the condition is true, branch
05:56:06 <mad> but what if it's only true on some of the units?
05:56:13 <Fiora> ummm usually you use branchless code and merge
05:56:28 <Bike> say mad have you seen weird-ass computer designs like the connection machine
05:56:35 <mad> yeah but that's not really a branch :3
05:56:43 <Fiora> but that's the whole point, you avoid the branch :P
05:56:53 <Fiora> in the absolute worst case, compute both sides and merge
05:57:00 <Fiora> usually you can find shortcuts though
05:57:22 <mad> what about the branch at the end of the loop? :D
05:57:34 <Fiora> ummm wait but why would that be per-element
05:57:35 <mad> you can't turn that one into a conditional mov :D
05:57:46 <Fiora> I don't understand...
05:57:46 <mad> it's the fallout of my current design
05:57:58 <Fiora> branches at the end of loops work the same in simd as normal...
05:58:32 <mad> classic risc except that instructions are first done on the "head" unit (the one with the scheduler)
05:58:39 <mad> then replicated on the other units
05:59:08 <mad> also it's a possible avenue for autovectorization
05:59:46 <Bike> So you have like... a four vector [7,7,6,7] and decrement loop on each number? And what happens when the 6 zeroes first?
06:00:30 <mad> normally something like a loop counter will end up being vectorized as something like [11, 10, 9, 8]
06:01:06 <mad> and then once it does the decrement it actually loads the 8 from the last unit into the first one and produces [7, 6, 5, 4]
06:01:44 <mad> suppose you exit the loop when i < 1
06:01:59 <mad> the next iteration will produce [3, 2, ,1, 0]
06:02:35 <mad> since the scheduling is done on the first unit, it will see 3 and try to loop again
06:02:55 <Bike> This seems like a bad use of autovectorization?
06:02:56 <mad> except the branch instruction will go the other way 3 cycles later on the 4th unit
06:03:44 <mad> bike : if I can solve this and memory aliasing I can probably get llvm to autovectorize almost any loop
06:04:22 <Bike> but you're vectorizing something that's probably supposed to go one at a time
06:05:21 <mad> well I have to admit that feedback loops that only have += are a lot easier to deal with
06:05:31 <mad> since for those ones it can probably guess
06:05:37 <Bike> like if i have for (int i = 0; i < 10; ++i) print(i); i probably want 0 through 10 to print in order.
06:06:13 <mad> the trick is that you can put the memory writes after the conditional jump
06:07:12 <mad> so your loop will escape before any bad data will get printed
06:07:40 <mad> irl it will probably try to vectorize print(i) actually
06:08:13 <mad> which will probably work for something like print("Hello world this is a long message")
06:08:35 <Bike> I mean, I want the prints to happen in a certain order.
06:08:42 <Bike> not much point in parallelizing that?
06:09:08 <mad> tbh it's not what I'm targetting
06:09:12 <Bike> And if you vectorized a long string print you'd be like, setting up multiple buffers?
06:09:16 <mad> more like the data processing loops
06:09:26 <Bike> I know it's not, I'm just trying to see why you'd want to do this for all loops.
06:09:37 <mad> which probably have guessable conditions like for(int i=0; i<somenum; i++)
06:10:22 <mad> mostly to avoid the cases where there's some exceptional case somewhere in the loop and the compiler can't guess it so it has to give up entirely on vectorizing
06:10:33 <Bike> I thought this was the processor?
06:10:59 <mad> like, if all the branches go the same way, the branches are almost free
06:11:26 <mad> and that's the typical case in loops that aren't completely sequential and where you can't do anything
06:11:58 <mad> maybe at some point in the loop it will start going the other side once or twice
06:12:13 <mad> which is essentially how branch prediction works
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06:13:25 <Sgeo> Oh god there's YET ANOTHER Haskell Iteratee library
06:13:34 <Sgeo> Iteratees are the new monad tutorials.
06:13:47 <Bike> How'ss branch prediction work in Haskell
06:13:53 <mad> or maybe I could have two types of vectorized loops
06:14:23 <mad> one for manual ASM (where when the 1st unit branch, all units branch, no choice, also no anti-alias)
06:14:55 <mad> and one for compilers (which support trapping split branches and memory aliasing but have crazy semantics that make no sense)
06:17:55 <mad> how expensive are comparators in terms of gates
06:19:21 <mad> like, is doing 96 comparisons (32 bits each) on each memory read crazy? :D
06:19:50 <Bike> isn't it subtraction and then sign check
06:20:42 <mad> well, it's exact value comparison
06:20:58 <mad> so it can be like a xor for each bit then 32-wide or :D
06:21:24 <Bike> equality is just xnor and then checking for 1s i guess
06:21:37 <mad> I guess that doesn't have much propagation delay
06:21:50 <mad> and not all that much many more gates than just a register
06:22:44 <Bike> 96 32-bit xnors on every read sounds like a bit much but i have no basis for comparison
06:23:17 <mad> other solution would be just a ~2048 bit array
06:23:26 <mad> each cache address gets 1 bit
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06:34:56 <kmc> The Beers, Burritos, and Bonghits Diet
06:35:24 <mad> but then it can generate false positives :(
06:36:39 <mad> it's kinda stupid for handwritten ASM too since people can guess what can alias or not
06:39:44 <mad> same for split branches I guess
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14:46:10 <Jafet> `run (echo '#!/bin/sh'; echo 'if [ $# -ne 0 ]; then for f in "$@"; do echo "#!/bin/cat" && cat "$f"; done; else echo "#!/bin/cat" && cat; fi') > bin/makequine && chmod +x bin/makequine
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16:01:30 <mroman_> anyone experience with cpp?
16:01:39 <mroman_> It seems it decides to ignore my -B option
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16:05:41 <mroman_> but cpp --help does not even list that option
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16:07:24 <lambdabot> AnotherTest: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:10:50 <boily> mroman_: cpp, as in g++?
16:11:57 <AnotherTest> When is -(a ProductLog(-(log(a))/a))/(log(a)) integral?
16:22:14 <AnotherTest> I suspected that a^b = b^a (with a !=b) is true only for 4 and 2
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16:25:03 <AnotherTest> log(2) / log(4) = 2 / 4, what other integers exists so that log(a) / log (b) = a/b?
16:28:29 <Arc_Koen> AnotherTest: I spent some time with a math teacher trying to find others or to prove that they were the only ones
16:29:56 <Arc_Koen> (that was in high school though)
16:29:57 <AnotherTest> well at least not for all combinations of numbers from 2 to 100
16:30:31 <AnotherTest> b =-(a ProductLog(-(log(a))/a))/(log(a)), but that really doesn't tell me a lot
16:32:18 <Arc_Koen> I wouldn't say "normally", since that is always true
16:33:24 <tromp_> at least for positive a
16:33:30 <AnotherTest> now it happens that for 4 and 2, it is true that a² = 2a
16:34:35 <AnotherTest> Well I think log (a) / log(b) = a /b is one of the conditions.
16:35:00 <AnotherTest> If it really is, then it would indeed only be true for 2
16:35:02 <Arc_Koen> one of the conditions? that's equivalent to a^b=b^a
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16:41:36 <elliott> The term "e" has type "bool = unit" while it is expected to have type "bool = unit".
16:42:00 <Sgeo> Got DS working on Linux
16:42:34 <Sgeo> No sound though :(
16:42:37 <boily> I guess in the current context DS doesn't mean "demon spawn".
16:42:48 <Sgeo> It means Docking Station
16:43:07 <Sgeo> Also, the context of my statement is wholly disconnected from the context of surrounding chat.
16:43:50 <boily> so, even if a != b, and e is booleanly unitty, the context of a silent docking station is disjointed from Linux.
16:49:11 <Sgeo> I assume this is not Haskell.
16:49:20 <Sgeo> Set/Type sounds like a thing you'd see in a dependently typed language
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17:12:04 <ais523> elliott: I think you may have been right, and Anarchy's type system is probably undecidable after all
17:13:05 <elliott> though I forget why I thought so!!
17:13:08 <elliott> but I'm sure it was a good reason
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17:24:18 <elliott> ais523: I assume this won't stop you, though
17:24:47 <ais523> I'll just have to work out if being undecidable is actually a problem, and if it is, what restrictions I should put on it to make it decidable
17:28:50 <elliott> wow, agda gives even worse error messages than coq
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18:00:51 <Taneb> Help I think I've just volunteered to cosplay Emperor Hirohito of Japan
18:02:06 <Gregor> Taneb: Easy solution: Start talking about the costume you want to make based on some insane Weeaboo notion of Japan, and they'll kick you out.
18:02:24 <Taneb> We've already got a Hitler, Stalin, and Mao
18:04:30 <Taneb> And no, I'm not going to tell them that Mao only seized power 4 years after Hitler's death
18:04:50 <Gregor> Is that REALLY relevant to that sort of cosplay X-D
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18:50:13 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
18:50:37 <Taneb> `learn Cosplay is the art of dressing up as people to show off to other people dressed up as people.
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18:54:42 <HackEgo> Colour is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu.
18:59:10 <HackEgo> Color is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu.
19:02:57 <shachaf> Color is a phenomenon from oter space
19:02:57 <Gregor> `learn Coulor is the correct spelling.
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19:03:57 <Gregor> shachaf: Colour is a phenoumenoun froum ooter space.
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19:08:20 <shachaf> My appendages are beginning to tingle from lack of sleep.
19:08:57 <shachaf> Although I did sleep a bit on the aæeiroplane.
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19:12:20 <ais523> aæei is one of the better vowels I've seen recently
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19:24:15 <boily> shachaf: does that mean appendages have an identity element? if so, what is it?
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20:04:15 <monqy> empty appendages are just that weird!!!
20:06:50 <oerjan> <AnotherTest> I suspected that a^b = b^a (with a !=b) is true only for 4 and 2
20:07:08 <oerjan> pretty sure i recall that's true for integers
20:07:42 <oerjan> @tell AnotherTest <AnotherTest> I suspected that a^b = b^a (with a !=b) is true only for 4 and 2 <-- pretty sure i recall that's true for integers
20:09:10 <oerjan> @tell AnotherTest Hint: it's equivalent to a^(1/a) = b^(1/b), which is much easier since you are looking at a single function
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20:10:51 <ais523> hey, anyone know how offhand to close a Metro program with the touchpad in Windows 8?
20:10:55 <ais523> we just tried and failed for 10 minutes
20:11:14 <ais523> (although "click on it then press alt-F4" works, it's not a touchpad-based solution)
20:11:33 <ais523> oh and I said "touchpad" because Windows 8 acts differently depending on whether its pointer input is a touchpad, touchscreen, or mouse
20:13:04 <oerjan> @tell AnotherTest basically you can graph that function from 0 and up, note it has a single maximum and that means only a finite number of cases that could possibly be the smaller natural number.
20:18:59 <Taneb> ais523, I've heard that that's completely non-obvious
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20:20:03 <oerjan> <ais523> aæei is one of the better vowels I've seen recently <-- æhæ.
20:20:32 <ais523> but I tried some non-obvious things too
20:20:48 <Taneb> Have you tried closing hand?
20:21:30 <Taneb> All fingers spread out -> all fingers together
20:21:34 <myname> anybody here any idea on how to have some esoteric fun on android besides brainfuck?
20:22:49 <elliott> oerjan: i just had to fish through some 2009 logs for some code i wanted and i'd like to apologise for being the worst person in the universe then
20:23:31 <ais523> Taneb: typical touchpads can handle that many contact points?
20:23:54 <oerjan> elliott: APOLOGY ACCEPTED
20:23:54 <ais523> myname: hmm… a client to something like EgoBot would be easy enough to do
20:24:15 <ais523> basically, an online lots-of-esolangs interpreter is a god way to have fun
20:24:35 <ais523> or sites like anarchy golf <http://golf.shinh.org>; that supports lots of esolangs
20:25:05 <HackEgo> myname: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:25:52 <myname> i was a bit disapointed by the lack of befunge interpreters for android
20:26:22 <Gregor> 2D languages could be kinda fun with a touchscreen :)
20:27:06 <Gregor> I imagine a command "palette" and a zoomable, interactive program space.
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20:58:35 <Sgeo> `welcome Murtaugh
20:58:37 <HackEgo> Murtaugh: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:00:16 <Taneb> Murtaugh, what brings you to the crazy land of #esoteric
21:00:46 <Murtaugh> I'm looking for a Conway's game of life channel =P
21:01:08 <elliott> is this phantom hoover's fault
21:01:40 <ais523> Murtaugh: we don't discuss that much, although this is indeed probably the appropriate channel
21:01:57 <ais523> every now and then I notice Hashlife exists and try to get the channel interested in it
21:02:07 <Bike> what are your thoughts on faster than light travel
21:02:15 <Bike> i should implement hashlife.
21:03:11 <Murtaugh> perhaps I found a new rule, a very interesting one.
21:03:25 <Murtaugh> due to a coding error, of course
21:04:01 <ais523> most of the cellular automaton rules that are uninteresting are obviously uninteresting
21:05:47 <ais523> Murtaugh: I assumed it was just gratuitous Cyrillic :)
21:06:03 <ais523> Life is B3/S23, isn't it?
21:06:13 <Murtaugh> I forgot to cycle between keymaps =p
21:06:34 <ais523> the world needs more gratuitous cyrillic, really
21:06:43 <ais523> have you discovered a spaceship pattern in it yet?
21:07:10 <ais523> that's normally the first interesting thing to aim for in a 2D cellular automaton
21:07:15 <Bike> wikipedia mentions B34/S34 but not just B3
21:07:31 <ais523> (also in a 1D automaton, but there you care about the spaceships going at different speeds so that they can collide)
21:08:00 <Murtaugh> I looked everywhere for B2/S234, but there is no info anywhere
21:08:34 <Bike> probably too similar to life
21:08:38 <ais523> the problem is that there are so many interesting automata
21:08:47 <ais523> and so few people to study them
21:09:19 <Murtaugh> It creates sillicon circuitry-like patterns
21:10:20 <mroman_> and no money backing it up?
21:10:21 <Bike> lifewiki has b/s234
21:10:36 <Taneb> Isn't there someone here who specializes in CAs?
21:11:01 <Sgeo> Oh hey ais523 and I proved something about GoL once
21:11:27 <Bike> geez, b235678/s378
21:11:30 <Bike> there are some weird ones
21:11:43 <ais523> wasn't it that really boring result
21:13:54 <ais523> I can't remember what the result was
21:13:57 <ais523> except it wasn't intersting
21:14:07 <ais523> Sgeo cared more about it, so he can probably fill you in
21:15:09 <Sgeo> I _think_ it was that on a finitely bounded (e.g. toroidal) game of life, any pattern with a sufficiently large hole has at least one ancestor that is a Garden of Eden.
21:16:48 <ais523> area with no live cells
21:17:30 <mroman_> is post-calculus turing-complete?
21:17:45 <boily> there is such a thing as post-calculus?
21:17:50 <Bike> post machines are
21:17:55 <ais523> mroman_: if it's even vaguely academic enough for Post to name it
21:18:03 <ais523> then yes, unless it was intentionally designed as sub-TC
21:18:29 <Bike> also also whenever Post comes up i feel the need to mention he only had one arm
21:18:50 <Taneb> L-systems are Turing-complete, and they were designed to simulate the growth of algae
21:18:57 <ais523> you could write a bot to do it for you and save the trouble
21:19:32 <Sgeo> I remember more recently trying to think about the proof and worrying that I might have made a mistake
21:19:33 <Bike> don't you think it would be kind of hard to reliably search for mentions of "Post" referring to the person
21:19:34 <ais523> Taneb: well algae are probably Turing-complete, if given sufficient (= infinite) space, time, and nutrients
21:19:36 <Bike> instead of like mail
21:20:11 <Bike> an individual alga could be turing complete depending what you're testing
21:20:36 <Bike> e.g. classical conditioning is subturing but you could probably find something in intracellular signaling
21:21:31 <ais523> <lament> even a box of rotten apples on a string is Turing-complete
21:21:41 <ais523> but basically, pretty much everything is TC unless there's an obvious reason why it isn't
21:21:48 <ais523> as such, it's quite hard to construct things on the borderline
21:22:08 <Bike> you can't classically condition algae anyway :'(
21:22:20 <Taneb> I tried to make a language that is turing complete if and only if the Collatz conjecture is false.
21:22:24 <Taneb> I didn't get very far
21:22:48 <Sgeo> I'm sure there are trivial ways to do that
21:22:48 <boily> we need a system that autodetects its own turing completeness, then alter itself to stop being TC.
21:23:00 <Bike> #define __ALLOW_UNBOUNDED_LOOPS falsehood_of(collatz)
21:23:10 <Bike> Murtaugh: http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.1749 good computer
21:23:32 <ais523> Bike: it's only interesting if you can implement the compiler without knowing the truth value of the collatz conjecture
21:23:40 <Sgeo> "This language is equivalent to Brainfuck if the Collatz conjecture is false, and equivalent to HQ9+ if it is true"
21:23:53 <Bike> a system proving that it's turing complete seems like you'd run into godel something
21:23:58 <Sgeo> ais523, wow, wasn't expecting a nice way to get rid of the trivialities
21:24:21 <Gregor> Hmmmmm. Is it possible, in a Turing complete system, to determine whether another system is Turing complete? (Note that the answer for ourself would probably be false, since the /environment/ is TC but we've created a particular system which is possibly not maybe)
21:24:37 <Bike> you know i think i still don't have a non-shitty version of that paper showing that generalized collatz is unsolveable
21:24:44 <Gregor> i.e., if I feed the description of a Turing machine into a (preprogrammed) Turing machine, can it tell me that that's a TC system?
21:24:53 <Murtaugh> mmmm interesting crab computer
21:25:09 <Taneb> Gregor, my first instinct is "no", but my instincts suck
21:25:19 <Gregor> It feels very Halting-problem-y X-D
21:25:31 <ais523> Gregor: it's clearly possible to have a computable system that's capable of proving that some system is equivalent to a Turing machine
21:25:48 <Bike> Gregor: i'm vaguely thinking there might be a curry-howard thing making that equivalent to proving a system consistent but i dunno
21:25:49 <coppro> sure, but that's different
21:26:02 <ais523> although one of Gödel's theorems shows that any system that can prove /itself/ equivalent to a Turing machine can also prove at least one incorrect statement
21:26:15 <ais523> Gregor: imagine a system that's almost, but not quite, the same as a Turing machine
21:26:18 <Bike> right that one
21:26:53 <boily> meh. my idea's been gödelled.
21:26:56 <Gregor> <ais523> although one of Gödel's theorems shows that any system that can prove /itself/ equivalent to a Turing machine can also prove at least one incorrect statement // the system may very well NOT be equivalent to a Turing machine, unless you can feed it machines in such a way that it calculates.
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21:27:50 <Gregor> ais523: What am I supposed to do while imagining this system X-D
21:28:01 <ais523> Gregor: well, it's very easy to prove equivalent to a Turing machine
21:28:10 <ais523> you don't need very much power to do the proving at all
21:28:21 <ais523> the extreme example is "mirror-reflections of Turing machines"
21:28:36 <ais523> and a proof language that can only see that descriptions are the same under reflection
21:28:45 <ais523> with brainfuck bolted on to make it TC
21:28:57 <Gregor> But that's an infinite set, and you're trying to prove that something is in the set. What if it's not?
21:29:15 <ais523> Gregor: you're trying to prove two infinite sets equivalent
21:29:20 <ais523> which you can do simply by showing a bijection
21:30:18 <Taneb> What if one is equivalent to the reals
21:30:39 <Bike> what does that matter
21:30:43 <Sgeo> Wouldn't be surprised if there was a machine that either spits out the correct answer or no answer
21:30:57 <Gregor> Yeah, I'm modestly lost in the analogy because as far as I can determine that's not what you're trying to do...
21:31:17 <ais523> perhaps we're thinking of different questions entirely
21:31:22 <Bike> shit i have a textbook that almost certainly went over whether the set of turing machines is recursive or r.e. what is wrong with me
21:31:25 <Sgeo> Actually, it would be surprising if there _WASN'T_ a machine that either spits out the correct answer or no answer
21:31:40 <Gregor> Sgeo: Here's one: while (true);
21:32:03 <Bike> not if there is a machine that doesn't, if there is no machine that does, gregor
21:32:35 <Bike> what is that in relation to
21:32:35 <Gregor> I agree with Sgeo on this matter.
21:33:15 <Gregor> Bike: I presented an example of a machine that “either spits out the correct answer or no answer”. It happens to choose “no answer” with 100% probability.
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21:34:17 <Gregor> ais523: Ohohoh, yeah, you were answering the later part when you were saying it might come down to Gödel's theorem X-D
21:34:38 <Sgeo> There are a lot of languages with arrows, but you may be thinking of Befunge?
21:34:54 <Sgeo> Do those count as arrows?
21:35:13 <ais523> there's a newish BF derivative made entirely out of Unicode arrows
21:35:21 <Gregor> Whatever the Brainfuck-equivalent-of-the-day is that replaces the BF commands with arrows in the 8 — lol, I was just kidding.
21:35:24 <ais523> I forget the name, because it's a BF derivative and therefore probably uninteresting
21:35:33 <ais523> Gregor: it's not quite that simple
21:35:38 <ais523> not sure if that makes it better or worse
21:36:05 <Sgeo> ais523, is my BF derivative uninteresting? :(
21:36:26 <FreeFull> Is looking at Idris a good idea?
21:36:58 <Bike> oh, that other thing.
21:37:10 <boily> oh. right. bot first, duck second.
21:37:16 <Bike> idris elba is an actor.
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21:37:26 <ais523> Sgeo: are you sure you want to know the answer to that question?
21:37:29 <metasepia> Idrissa Akuna "Idris" Elba is an English television, theatre, and film actor who has starred in both British and American productions.
21:37:58 <ais523> bleh, now I have to look it up
21:38:11 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
21:38:11 <metasepia> interest definition: right, title, or legal share in something.
21:38:17 <Sgeo> Oh, I was afraid that asking that question was an answer in and of itself
21:38:30 <ais523> that's more interesting than average
21:38:45 <ais523> it's an esolang along the lines of "take a language people already know so we can concentrate on the weirdnesses"
21:38:48 <Gregor> How 'bout compared to ShaFuck X-D
21:39:23 <Sgeo> I think Brainfuck had some issues being a basis for it
21:39:26 <boily> fizzie: please summon fungot from its deep torpor.
21:39:28 <Sgeo> Some creative possibilities denied
21:39:37 <boily> (or is it torpour? that's the problem with being canadian.)
21:41:15 <boily> tourpour sounds like a random unpalatable veggie.
21:42:46 <oerjan> wtf what a stupid error: i assigned the same address to two different "variables"
21:43:25 <boily> Gregor: wasn't it forbidden by the UN?
21:43:40 <Murtaugh> this is the most random channel I've ever been
21:43:59 <ais523> Murtaugh: hmm… small IRC communities normally get this way
21:44:00 <Sgeo> Must... not... name... that... channel
21:44:03 <ais523> I prefer them to talk more on topic
21:44:16 <ais523> Sgeo: I don't know which channel you're talking about, but I agree you shouldn't name it
21:44:18 <Gregor> Murtaugh: It'd be hard to beat in that dimension.
21:44:25 <Sgeo> ais523, one of the Freenode kline channels
21:44:30 <Gregor> boily: Yup. Horsemeat.
21:44:35 <FreeFull> I just want to do some programming with dependent types
21:44:40 <FreeFull> And Idris was the first thing that came up
21:44:46 <FreeFull> And it has Haskell-like syntax
21:44:59 <ais523> Sgeo: if it's a kline channel, it can't possibly be random, can it? it's empty by definition
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21:45:14 <Bike> isn't agda the sexy thing
21:45:22 <ais523> it's like saying "that room over there is random, because it's empty, because it kills anyone who enters it"
21:45:25 <Taneb> I thought a kline channel was a channel with no inside or outside
21:45:28 <ais523> it's both kin of scary, and a non sequitur
21:46:13 <Sgeo> We're outside a kline channel? That means... we're IN one, man. woah
21:47:25 <FreeFull> Oh hey, the hello world compiled
21:47:39 <Taneb> Generally a good sign
21:48:02 <ais523> FreeFull: oh no, you're reminding me of a past exam question I was talking my students through today
21:48:10 <ais523> and it took me like 5 minutes to get the answer
21:48:30 <ais523> because it was a trick question, and I recognised it was a trick question, but failed to recognise what the trick was
21:48:41 <ais523> even though I knew what the trick was, I was wrong about how it was being applied
21:51:28 <Bike> this paper is anti-monoidal. i'm sorry shachaf
21:52:08 <Taneb> @hoogle [a] -> [([a],[a])]
21:52:08 <lambdabot> Network.CGI.Protocol formDecode :: String -> [(String, String)]
21:52:08 <lambdabot> Network.CGI formDecode :: String -> [(String, String)]
21:52:08 <lambdabot> Network.CGI.Cookie readCookies :: String -> [(String, String)]
21:52:49 <Bike> @hoogle [a] -> [([b],[c])]
21:52:49 <lambdabot> Control.Monad mapAndUnzipM :: Monad m => (a -> m (b, c)) -> [a] -> m ([b], [c])
21:52:49 <lambdabot> Prelude readList :: Read a => ReadS [a]
21:52:49 <lambdabot> Text.Read readList :: Read a => ReadS [a]
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21:55:42 <Taneb> :t \xs -> takeWhile (not.null.snd) $ map (`splitAt` xs) [0..]
21:55:50 <Taneb> > (\xs -> takeWhile (not.null.snd) $ map (`splitAt` xs) [0..]) "hello"
21:55:52 <lambdabot> [("","hello"),("h","ello"),("he","llo"),("hel","lo"),("hell","o")]
21:56:54 <oerjan> <Taneb> I thought a kline channel was a channel with no inside or outside <-- you are clearly confusing with "klein channel", hth
21:58:34 <oerjan> > zip<$>inits<*>tails$"hello"
21:58:36 <lambdabot> [("","hello"),("h","ello"),("he","llo"),("hel","lo"),("hell","o"),("hello",...
21:58:46 <FreeFull> ais523: What was the question?
21:58:56 <Taneb> Murtaugh, here we make jokes based on somewhat obscure subjects
21:59:01 <Taneb> For instance, Kleine bottles
21:59:07 <Sgeo> oerjan, I get how that works, but do people generally consider that readable?
21:59:39 <FreeFull> Applicative is cooler than monads
21:59:55 <Sgeo> Wonder if applicatives should get syntax sugar
22:00:12 <oerjan> Sgeo: well the (->) monad/applicative is always a little dubious
22:00:16 <Murtaugh> If I say something about klein bottles irl people will just go "WTF?" at me
22:00:21 <ais523> FreeFull: "here is some Java code that compiles but does not do what it's intended to, make three corrections to the code and two to the documentation"
22:00:22 <Sgeo> Also wonder if a monad could be made to act as syntax sugar for applicatives. I think it would have to error at runtime if you tried something illegal though
22:00:29 <Bike> > tails "hello"
22:00:31 <lambdabot> ["hello","ello","llo","lo","o",""]
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22:00:46 <Bike> yeah that seems sensible enough
22:01:17 <Sgeo> oerjan, too bad, I like that monad/applicative
22:01:29 <Sgeo> Reminds me of J
22:02:15 <nooodl> hah i was thinking "that's a verb train!" too
22:02:18 <Bike> well NOW it doesn't seem sensible
22:02:34 <lambdabot> Applicative f => f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
22:02:35 <FreeFull> Ok, that is actually very straightforward
22:02:58 <Sgeo> > (+) <$> id <*> id $ 5
22:03:10 <Sgeo> > (+) <$> id <*> (+1) $ 5
22:03:21 <Sgeo> Bike, do those make sense?
22:03:24 <Sgeo> Those should be clearer
22:03:27 <nooodl> > (/) <$> sum <*> length $ [1,2,3,4,5]
22:03:28 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Fractional GHC.Types.Int)
22:03:34 <Bike> it's "so easy"
22:03:36 <nooodl> wait. why doesn't this work
22:03:44 <Bike> > zip <$> inits <*> inits <*> inits $ "fuck"
22:03:46 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a0 -> b0'
22:04:03 <FreeFull> You'll want fromIntegral somewhere
22:04:11 <nooodl> > (/) <$> sum <*> fromIntegral.length $ [1,2,3,4,5]
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22:04:27 <nooodl> ^ this works fine, though
22:04:29 <Bike> so does this do average in parallel
22:04:45 <FreeFull> nooodl: All valid Num instances have a fromInteger
22:04:51 <Sgeo> ) (+/%#) 1 2 3 4 5
22:05:01 <FreeFull> 3 is actually fromInteger 3 underneath
22:05:07 <nooodl> i was rewriting (+/%#) which is a j "idiom" for average
22:05:32 <Bike> i mean, accumulating the length in the same reduction that it accumulates the sum
22:05:33 <FreeFull> nooodl: If you have an Integer though, it won't automatically get converted to whatever Num instance you want
22:05:46 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Fractional GHC.Integer.Type.Integer)
22:06:52 <Bike> which i assume J does because J is god
22:06:55 <oerjan> <Bike> so does this do average in parallel <-- i don't think so, ghc isn't very good at deforesting two lists concurrently
22:07:27 <Bike> dammit J you had one job
22:07:42 <oerjan> (e.g. the documentation for zipWith mentions you only get one of them fused)
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22:08:52 <FreeFull> Bike: You could write an efficient average using pipes I think
22:09:20 <nooodl> hmm. a recent haskell idea thingy i had, inspired by J: some datatype that's a pair of inverse functions
22:09:41 <Bike> @tell murtaugh Ping timeout: TREE(3) seconds
22:09:43 * Sgeo wonders if this would end up being lense
22:09:51 <Bike> can you do it with lenses
22:09:54 <Bike> was my real question
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22:30:13 <nooodl> http://codepad.org/q0Zc9nnT mmmh
22:31:41 <Bike> > (:[]) . head [4,5]
22:31:43 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (f0 a0))
22:32:01 <Bike> > (:[]) $ head [4,5]
22:32:41 <Bike> > (:[]) . head $ [4,5]
22:32:51 <Bike> fuckin operator precedence
22:33:44 <nooodl> yeah maybe there should be a law for the thingy going the other way too
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22:45:46 <FreeFull> Hey, Idris actually has a proper unary -
22:46:56 <FreeFull> nooodl: Class Foo a b where { foo :: a -> b; defoo :: b -> a } Something like this?
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22:49:14 <Bike> that's what's in the paste
22:50:29 <Bike> except with infixity for some reason.
22:57:09 <nooodl> they're infix operators because i couldn't think of a name for them
22:57:21 <nooodl> i like the way i defined them, though.
23:00:47 <kmc> phobos and deimos
23:02:10 -!- augur has joined.
23:03:49 <Bike> pain and confusion right? perfect for programming
23:04:11 <Bike> fear and dread. oh well
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23:16:26 <kmc> i thought there was already a package for isomorphisms
23:16:28 <Bike> i thought generally that f⁻¹ . f = id = f . f⁻¹, or am i confusing things with left inverse or wetfuck
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23:22:58 <Bike> hey elliott can lens do average as one fold or what
23:24:04 <elliott> you can do that with ```fold zipping'''
23:24:08 <elliott> it forms an applicative functor
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23:24:41 <Bike> that's a lot of quotes is this a python docsting
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23:25:20 <elliott> data Fold a b = Fold b (a -> Fold a b)
23:25:41 <elliott> sumF = sumF' 0 where sumF' !n = Fold n (\_ -> sumF' (n+1))
23:25:48 <kmc> ,,quotes,,
23:25:54 <elliott> sumF = sumF' 0 where sumF' !n = Fold n (\m -> sumF' (n+m))
23:26:09 <elliott> lengthF = lengthF' 0 where lengthF' !n = Fold n (\_ -> lengthF' (n+1))
23:26:17 <elliott> runFold ((/) <$> sumF <*> lengthF) [1,2,3]
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23:26:53 <elliott> btw this is at least 47% profound
23:27:03 <Bike> that's p. profound
23:27:17 <elliott> oh it's a comonad too iirc
23:27:42 <elliott> wait is it a cofree comonad
23:28:20 <elliott> upping the profundity to 72%
23:28:33 <elliott> oh cool it's basically dual to Supply too.
23:28:54 <elliott> yo does anybody in here have the slightest clue what im talking about
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23:34:12 <kmc> that's neat
23:34:30 <elliott> i feel only slightly reassured
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23:34:46 <Sgeo> What's Supply?
23:34:52 <FreeFull> > (,) <$> (+3) <*> (*3) $ ZipList [1,2,3,4,5]
23:34:54 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (Control.Applicative.ZipList a0))
23:35:06 <kmc> what are pure and <*> for Fold
23:35:09 <FreeFull> > (,) <$> (tails) <*> (heads) $ ZipList [1,2,3,4,5]
23:35:10 <elliott> actually fold is more like supply
23:35:20 <elliott> kmc: pure a = Fold a (const (pure a))
23:35:30 <elliott> i.e. just like foldr (\_ b -> b) a
23:35:37 <elliott> (<*>) is a bit trickier iirc
23:35:39 <Sgeo> Err, so, a free monad based on reader, so... can take a potentially infinite number of arguments and pass them in, or what?
23:35:41 <Bike> FreeFull: inits
23:36:13 <elliott> kmc: oh maybe it's just Fold f q <*> Fold x r = Fold (f x) (\v -> q v <*> r v)???
23:36:30 <elliott> Sgeo: eg you can feed Free ((->) Int) from stdin
23:36:30 <FreeFull> > (,) <$> (tails) <*> (inits) $ ZipList [1,2,3,4,5]
23:36:32 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a0]'
23:36:33 <elliott> or from a predefined stream of Ints
23:36:44 <FreeFull> Of course doesn't work on ZipLists
23:36:58 <Bike> ALSO is there like a formal model of code serialization somewhere because i'm blanking
23:37:01 <kmc> back later
23:37:02 <Sgeo> elliott, is there a way to supply it with a finite source?
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23:38:05 <elliott> yes but your result will have to be eg in maybe
23:38:09 <elliott> Free ((->) r) a -> [r] -> Maybe a
23:38:17 <elliott> because it might ask for an "r" when you don't have any left
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23:54:16 <Bike> so that's a no
23:55:56 <elliott> for instance you couldn't do that with (Stream r -> a)
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00:31:51 <Sgeo> How does Free (Cont r) behave?
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01:03:38 <Sgeo> The order of applicatives matter, yet there's no nice syntax for rearranging the order when using a nonmonadic applicative
01:04:01 <lambdabot> It could refer to either `Control.Applicative.<**>',
01:04:01 <lambdabot> imported from `Control.Applicative' at State/L.hs:4:1-26
01:04:18 <Sgeo> @hoogle (<**>)
01:04:18 <lambdabot> Control.Applicative (<**>) :: Applicative f => f a -> f (a -> b) -> f b
01:04:19 <lambdabot> Control.Applicative (<**>) :: Applicative f => f a -> f (a -> b) -> f b
01:04:32 <Bike> ambiguous occuence
01:05:04 <Sgeo> I still think a do-like syntax for applicatives could be reasonable
01:05:32 <oerjan> Sgeo: i've been thinking comprehension syntax is more fitting
01:06:40 <oerjan> all you need afaict is to check that none of the comma separated <- declarations use each other
01:06:48 <Sgeo> But, if there's a monad that let's you put applicatives together (maybe returning Nothing if you attempt an illegal operation), monad comprehensions could be used
01:07:14 <Sgeo> Although direct syntax support would be better
01:10:44 <elliott> oerjan: well comprehensions and do notations are basically the same. though the free "pure" in comprehensions suits applicatives well
01:11:13 <oerjan> yes, the latter is what i was thinking
01:15:04 <elliott> so [f x y z | x <- ..., y <- ..., z <- ...] ==> f <$> ... <*> ... <*> ...
01:15:20 <elliott> hmm it would work well with record puns, too bad record puns are evil
01:15:29 <elliott> or can you pun that way...
01:21:26 <oerjan> or wait i'm thinking of record wildcards
01:23:29 <elliott> I was thinking if you could do [Rec{..} | field <- ..., field2 <- ...]
01:24:32 <oerjan> and also backwards, i think
01:24:41 <elliott> what do you mean by backwards
01:25:03 <oerjan> that .. is a pattern you get the names _out_ of, not put them into
01:25:42 <oerjan> that seems to be allowed
01:27:30 <elliott> I wonder if you get a fun type error if you e.g. forget to bind field3
01:27:37 <elliott> and it tries to do field3 = field3
01:27:41 <elliott> where field3 is the _accessor_ function
01:27:44 <elliott> (because punning is awful)
01:27:53 <elliott> probably it just detects that I guess :(
01:28:31 <oerjan> it says that particular binding is excluded
01:36:56 <Sgeo> Dependently typed languages don't have idiotic numbers of zip functions, right?
01:37:05 <Sgeo> zip3 zip4 zipOkThisIsDumb
01:37:11 <lambdabot> [a] -> [b] -> [c] -> [d] -> [(a, b, c, d)]
01:37:20 <Sgeo> Just use HLists instead of tuples
01:38:39 <elliott> that was how they were originally written
01:38:41 <elliott> nothing to do with dependent types, also
01:38:52 <elliott> ZipList abstracts away the zip pattern
01:39:19 <Sgeo> HLists are tuples structured like lists though, rather than flat, iirc
01:39:39 <Sgeo> (1, (2,3)) rather than (1,2,3)
01:39:53 <Sgeo> (1, (2, (3, ())))
01:39:54 <Bike> that's some old school shit right there
01:39:58 <elliott> anyway it's a bad representation because you get O(n) access
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01:45:54 <Jafet> > zip (zip (zip (repeat ()) (repeat ())) (repeat ())) (repeat ()))
01:45:55 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:64: parse error on input `)'
01:45:59 <Jafet> > zip (zip (zip (repeat ()) (repeat ())) (repeat ())) (repeat ())
01:46:01 <lambdabot> [((((),()),()),()),((((),()),()),()),((((),()),()),()),((((),()),()),()),((...
01:48:55 <Jafet> > join $ fix $ (["","()"]++) . ap (zipWith (\x y->"("++x++y++")")) tail
01:48:57 <lambdabot> "()(())(()(()))((())(()(())))((()(()))((())(()(()))))(((())(()(())))((()(()...
01:49:14 <Bike> it's like i'm really using an esolang
01:49:57 <elliott> you're not, Bike. because you don't know haskell
01:50:01 <elliott> because you're barely even a person!!!!
01:50:07 <Bike> i'm barely even a bike
01:51:07 <elliott> but you don't fix anything
01:51:19 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-gear_bicycle
01:51:19 <lambdabot> Title: Fixed-gear bicycle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
01:51:22 <Sgeo> > let bike = const "Bike" in fix bike
01:51:36 <Bike> :t const "shitshitshit"
01:51:40 <elliott> i know what fixies are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FUCKER
01:51:56 <Sgeo> I did not know what a fixie s
01:52:26 <Bike> hope that helped
01:52:35 <Sgeo> elliott, what's that thing that was in lambdabot that made a joke about fixing?
01:52:47 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: bid faq ft id thx
01:53:23 <elliott> i think i must be tired because im laughing at Bike's smiley
01:53:29 <elliott> and i usually only laugh when i use that smiley
01:53:42 <Bike> are you okay bro
01:53:44 <oerjan> !underload (:aS(:^S^:)Sa:):^S^:(:aS(:^S^:)Sa:)
01:53:46 <EgoBot> (:aS(:^S^:)Sa:):^S^:(:aS(:^S^:)Sa:)
01:54:05 <Sgeo> elliott, I laughed when you said that what I said was the saddest thing you've heard
01:54:16 <Bike> the saddest thing he'd heard you say
01:54:59 <Sgeo> I don't remember
01:55:06 <elliott> insufficient data for meaningful answer
01:57:32 <Sgeo> @pl (\x -> x x) (\x -> x x)
01:57:35 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
01:57:48 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
01:57:56 <Bike> i think i see where this is going
01:58:20 <elliott> its optimising the points away
01:58:54 <Sgeo> But the points are gone
01:59:00 <Sgeo> Why is it still trying to get rid of more?
02:00:01 <Bike> wait i thought arrows sucked
02:00:49 <Sgeo> (#(% %) #(% %))
02:01:13 <elliott> its trying to make the code shorter
02:01:14 <lambdabot> Monad m => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b
02:01:58 <Sgeo> :t id<*>id$id<*>id
02:02:00 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = a0 -> b0
02:02:00 <lambdabot> Actual type: (a0 -> b0) -> a0 -> b0
02:02:11 <Sgeo> :t (\x -> x x) (\x -> x x)
02:02:13 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t1 = t1 -> t0
02:02:13 <lambdabot> In the first argument of `x', namely `x'
02:02:21 <Bike> did you expect that to work i'm confused
02:03:56 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t1 = t1 -> t0
02:03:56 <lambdabot> In the first argument of `x', namely `x'
02:04:06 <Bike> this is why fix exists surely
02:04:45 <Sgeo> There are functions you can pass to themselves
02:04:58 <Sgeo> So why can't I write a function that can only take such a function?
02:05:07 <Bike> what functions can you pass to themselves
02:05:21 <elliott> Sgeo: what type do you expect (\x -> x x) to have
02:05:24 <Bike> well that's because it's polymorphic isn't it
02:05:29 <elliott> note that it can be assigned a type but not in haskell 2010
02:05:45 <Bike> oh? what type would it be assigned?
02:06:10 <elliott> ok i will but only if everyone gives up
02:06:27 <Bike> how can we give up if we're too incompetent to even guess
02:06:33 <oerjan> does it count as giving up if i already know the answer?
02:06:43 <elliott> you don't count as part of everyone, oerjan
02:06:56 <elliott> a priori i assume that anything i could possibly say is something oerjan already knows
02:07:14 <Sgeo> I don't know anything about type theory outside of Haskell. Well, a little subtyping I guess
02:07:21 <elliott> its not really anything to do with type theory
02:07:46 <Bike> surely \x -> x x not being typeable in HM is type theory something
02:07:47 <Sgeo> Some sort of or type?
02:07:56 <elliott> (\x -> x x) is a function so must have type $A -> $B for some $A, $B
02:08:11 <Bike> are those perl style variables
02:08:18 <elliott> we apply x inside so we know $A must be a function type, ($C -> $D) -> $B for some $C, $D, $B
02:08:30 <elliott> the function's result is the result of applying x
02:08:39 <Sgeo> Recursive types
02:08:40 <elliott> ($C -> $D) -> $D for some $C, $D
02:08:50 <elliott> $C is what we pass in i.e. the type of x
02:09:09 <elliott> 02:03:56 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t1 = t1 -> t0
02:09:34 <elliott> from a rank2 pov we can assign the type (\x -> x x) :: (forall a. a -> a) -> b -> b
02:10:15 <elliott> Bike: btw fucking learn haskell you god damn fixie
02:10:24 <Bike> that fuckin book
02:10:36 <elliott> about your opinions of the book
02:10:46 <Bike> well i'm certainly not doing it now but that's because my head is underwater
02:10:58 <Bike> how about this tomorrow i will learn agda and then shoot you
02:10:59 <elliott> buy hutton's programming in haskell if you want I hear that's good!!!!
02:11:10 <elliott> fuck it give up and read real world haskell if you want to be the worst person slash bike
02:11:14 <elliott> i don't care it just needs to happen
02:11:27 <elliott> well rwh is kind of crappy as a `first read'
02:11:39 <Bike> no i mean why does it need to happen
02:12:06 <Sgeo> Why does Bike hate LYAH?
02:12:13 <elliott> either you'll learn and understand
02:12:18 <elliott> and it won't matter any more
02:12:22 <Bike> i don't hate it, i just think it's kind of irritating
02:12:27 <elliott> headlines FIRST BICYCLE KILLED BY HASKELL
02:12:31 <elliott> SIMON PEYTON JONES ARRESTED
02:12:32 <Bike> okay fuck fine i'll try it right now you fucking shitter
02:12:43 <Bike> fuck you, sun.
02:13:02 <elliott> Bike: have you read why's (poignant) guide to ruby
02:13:02 <Sgeo> Sun's dead. Try Oracle.
02:13:12 <elliott> lyah is the tamest shit in comparison (and i love wpgtr with all my heart)
02:13:39 <Bike> i read some of wpgtr but i thought it was funnier than lyah
02:13:39 <Sgeo> iirc wpgtr says something and that something is obsolete
02:13:48 <Sgeo> Some flaw that Ruby had that was fixed
02:13:50 <Bike> i forget why i don't like lyah, maybe it's because i hate joy
02:13:55 <elliott> well wpgtr was last updated like a billion years ago
02:13:56 <Bike> do i hate joy? i forget
02:14:01 <elliott> i think its for ruby 1.8.something
02:14:04 <Sgeo> Joy is a different language.
02:14:14 <elliott> but it doesn't matter because nobody has ever learned ruby from wpgtr
02:14:16 <elliott> and that's the beauty of it
02:14:26 <Bike> i like joy the language i mean joy the happiness
02:14:35 <elliott> did you know wpgtr has a soundtrack
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02:15:30 <Bike> is there a haskell mode for emacs that isn't bullshit
02:15:39 <elliott> yes its called the haskell mode
02:15:46 <elliott> just get the latest one from git or whatever since your package might just be shit
02:15:54 <elliott> oh i set it into stupid indentation mode i think
02:15:59 <elliott> since the smart indentation mode irritates me
02:16:05 <elliott> like it knows better than me
02:16:12 <elliott> and wants to cycle thoruhg every possible indentation when i press tab
02:16:16 <Bike> wow it's actually in a repository gosh
02:16:21 <elliott> "did you know it's theoretically possible for you to write code at this indentation here???"
02:16:38 <Jafet> elliott: those are the best indentations you know
02:16:45 <elliott> and type my indentation manually
02:16:55 <elliott> i don't know when i regressed like this but i am happy
02:17:17 <elliott> it's because i tried the fancy alternative haskell mode thing chrisdone had
02:17:30 <elliott> and it annoyed the hell out of me and wanted me to make a .cabal for everything when i just wanted to load a file into ghci
02:17:39 <elliott> so i gave up and started doing vi foo.hs instead
02:17:39 <Bike> so what's the usual mode for editing haskell
02:17:52 <Bike> "workflow" that's the ticket
02:17:53 <elliott> well chrisdone just merged the good stuff into real haskell-mode i think
02:17:59 <elliott> well you write stuff in a file
02:18:05 <elliott> it loads in the ghci in the other emacs window
02:18:09 <Bike> oh good, i'm all over that.
02:18:09 <elliott> and you switch over and evaluate stuff
02:18:16 <elliott> its basically like lisp but we don't have anything fancy like slime
02:18:37 <Bike> suddenly i have the horrible idea of writing haskell swank
02:18:51 <elliott> like it's basically literally the same as running ghci in another terminal and pressing :r
02:19:08 <Bike> well i'll miss C-c C-c but i can deal
02:19:11 <Sgeo> :r still wipes bindings
02:19:27 <elliott> i've forgotten what c-c c-c does
02:19:29 <Bike> why would it not
02:19:38 <Bike> holy fuck haskell-platform installs a lot
02:20:00 <Sgeo> Because I want to test a function with some data that took some time to produce and don't want to re-create the data each time I change the function
02:20:03 <elliott> everything haskell platform installs for you is something you cant fuck up installing manually with cabal-install
02:20:43 <Bike> Sgeo: yeah sounds like C-c C-c would be good for that, but a lot of times being able to destroy old bindings would be kind of nice too
02:21:16 <elliott> don't leave me in the dark
02:21:20 <Jafet> elliott: until you need to upgrade a package
02:21:25 <Bike> slime-compile-defun
02:21:31 <elliott> Jafet: that's when you throw out your computer and buy a new one
02:21:33 <Bike> just compiles and loads the current form
02:21:36 <Bike> instead of like, the whole file.
02:22:22 <Sgeo> whole-file vs single-function isn't relevant, it's what happens to old bindings made at REPL that's relevant
02:22:33 <elliott> Bike: the real cool emacs stuff starts when you give up on ever writing programs and just go to coq and agda
02:22:43 <Bike> good, i hate programs
02:22:44 <elliott> where you get tightly-integrated ~HYPER-INTERACTIVE~ emacs environments
02:23:48 <Sgeo> Maybe I should be a teacher instead of a programmer
02:25:50 <elliott> is it so you can have peace
02:26:04 <Bike> because you're whiting out every few seconds and at this rate you'll become a p-zombie
02:26:20 <elliott> ok becoming a p-zombie is now on my list of life goals
02:26:30 <elliott> just before becoming a bicycle (how do you do it???)
02:26:34 <Bike> read more smullyan then
02:26:38 <Bike> it's an ancient secret i'm afraid
02:26:45 <elliott> ancient wisdom of the bicycles
02:27:06 <Bike> "so for reasons that will remain unclear i have an account on a novell network which uses windows 7 and i wish to get the sam and system files or the password hashes and saved onto a flashdrive" ##asm is a great channel
02:27:53 <Fiora> it's like 98% actual asm questions 2% random scriptkiddies asking for hacking help
02:28:24 <Bike> plot twist: 40% of the actual asm questions are people trying to wargame.
02:28:31 <Jafet> 97% homework questions
02:28:36 <elliott> well as I understand it the point of assembler is to bypass the security checks in the Micro-Soft Windows operating system to achieve a lower level of control with which to extract the necessary passwords from the system code
02:28:37 <Fiora> Yeah XD but wargame stuff sounds really cool
02:29:15 <elliott> that is why microsoft do not supply an assembler. it is too risky
02:30:11 <elliott> do you ever get the feeling someone in the channel is taking your bullshit joke seriously
02:30:17 <elliott> i'm getting that feeling real strong right now
02:30:37 <Bike> you think someone in this channel would say "Micro-Soft"?
02:30:48 <elliott> bike have you SEEN the people in thnis channel
02:30:56 <Bike> am i the narc?
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02:32:10 <elliott> damn Bike you are so right. i should be sleeping
02:32:28 <HackEgo> Bike: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:32:33 <Bike> this is the advantage of the ancient wisdom of the bicycles.
02:33:12 <Bike> right britland
02:33:50 <elliott> bike have you ever even seen a britland
02:34:03 <Bike> Only once, when I was young.
02:34:22 <elliott> wow you're looking at my time without permission
02:34:38 <Sgeo> @localtime elliott
02:34:39 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Mar 7 02:34:38 2013
02:35:05 <Bike> /say @localtime had better just ctcp people
02:35:34 <Sgeo> @localtime words more words
02:35:51 <Sgeo> @localtime words Sgeo lambdabot words
02:36:42 <elliott> 02:36:39 -!- Irssi: Unknown command: sleep
02:36:53 <kmc> /msg nickserv ghost elliott
02:38:05 <kmc> bonghits4jesus
02:38:42 <elliott> i didn't believe you but tried to ghost you nonetheless
02:38:47 <elliott> basic principles of professionalism
02:38:54 <kmc> you sure did
02:39:11 <Bike> you're one of the worst sleepers i've ever seen.
02:39:16 <elliott> did it say hey kmc im nickserv the snitchand that elliott guy is the WORST
02:39:16 <kmc> nobody will guess my password because i used the numeral '4' instead of the word 'four'
02:39:33 <kmc> Bike: wait am i asleep
02:39:37 <kmc> is this all a dream
02:39:39 <Bike> no not you that other guy
02:39:48 <Bike> fuck do i look like zhuangzi to you
02:39:48 <elliott> fuck you already have mine since i use mosh
02:39:56 <elliott> and im sure you have some great backdoors in that crypto
02:40:00 <elliott> and don't forget that sharing is caring
02:40:04 <kmc> no i just have a backdoor for AES
02:40:09 <kmc> 'much better'
02:41:04 <elliott> Bike: what does it feel like to be able to decide to go to sleep and then enact that decision successfully
02:41:55 <Sgeo> It feels like being dead tired at midnight instead of 2pm
02:42:11 <Sgeo> It's... weird.
02:43:06 <Sgeo> I think... my sleep schedule has actually been quasinormal lately
02:44:40 <elliott> im starting to become irritated at everything for existing
02:44:49 <elliott> especialyl Bike because bicycles feel more like tangible objects than humans to me
02:45:32 <Sgeo> FireFlys aren't humans either.
02:45:54 <Sgeo> And humans being the dual of pumpkins seems weird
02:46:50 <Bike> elliott may already be a dualist!
02:47:29 <Bike> What if I threw in being a duelist as well?
02:47:59 <elliott> Bike: do you know haskell yet
02:48:26 <Bike> Just need to figure out these monad things.
02:48:33 <elliott> i know some good tutorials for that :-)
02:48:59 <elliott> superglued them eyeballzzz together
02:50:55 <elliott> twice the noses: twice the power
02:51:15 <elliott> even as a bicycle you have never seen the dawning of a day with this much smiling upon it
02:52:08 <elliott> Bike my irc client is about to literally explode if you dont tell me to go to bed again
02:53:06 <Bike> Bike is away: are you asleep yet?
02:56:24 <kmc> (-:-) TIE FIGHTER
02:56:35 <Bike> combining tie fighter above
02:57:03 <elliott> bike you told me you were away
02:57:19 <Bike> Bike is away: do you regret?
02:58:37 <kmc> have joined ##asm
02:59:29 <Bike> the hacker already left sorry
03:00:33 <Bike> sgeo you're kind of adorable sometimes i hope you know that
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03:20:15 <Bike> how do i get inferior-haskell to get me a repl? haskell wiki says to C-c C-l something but that seems pretty dumb
03:21:09 <elliott> if yo uwant a repl without a file, you can open a terminal and type ghci
03:21:11 <elliott> but seriously you want a file
03:21:17 <elliott> since declarations are like 10x more convenient in a file
03:21:19 <elliott> and like indentation and stuff
03:21:26 <Bike> okay yes but i want a repl too
03:21:52 <Bike> lyah starts with a repl. i gotta go by the book here.
03:23:09 <elliott> alternatively m-x some shit FUCK I NEED TO SLEEP
03:26:15 <Bike> oh 4 * -3 isn't allowed, nice
03:26:58 <lambdabot> cannot mix `GHC.Num.*' [infixl 7] and prefix ...
03:27:06 <elliott> well negative numbers are kin dof a clusterfuck
03:27:08 <elliott> just put them in parens always
03:27:37 <Bike> > ((*) 4 ((-) 3))
03:27:39 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> a0))
03:27:45 <elliott> monqy: whats Your Solution i have my solution
03:28:13 <Bike> oh. is there like negate somewhere
03:28:25 <monqy> elliott: my solution is get rid of unary -, have -4 and such be numeric literal, use negate if you want a function
03:28:39 <Bike> and in that moment i swear we were all monqy
03:28:42 <elliott> monqy: and what does (- 3) mean
03:28:51 <Bike> it means - takes two arguments
03:28:59 <elliott> monqy: however what does foo x = -x mean?????
03:29:05 <Bike> > ((*) 4 (negate 3))
03:29:17 <Bike> maybe i'll write all my haskell like this to piss people off pointlessly
03:29:20 <monqy> (-x is an identifier)
03:29:26 <Bike> (that's alliteration)
03:29:35 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> t))
03:29:35 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity chec...
03:29:41 <Sgeo> Why is elliott still awake?
03:29:47 <monqy> yeah i'd probably end up making haskell into agda somehow
03:32:25 <Fiora> elliott: narcolepsy is not that fun
03:32:42 <Bike> shh he's asleep
03:33:27 <Bike> "You may not have known it but we've been using functions now all along. For instance, * is a function that takes two numbers and multiplies them." this is pretty great
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03:39:08 <Bike> Sgeo: talking about languages is a bad idea hth
03:39:38 <Sgeo> In that channel, maybe.
03:39:58 <monqy> what did sgeo do....
03:40:20 <Bike> Mentioned Haskell in ##asm. Or maybe it was someone else but anyway now everything is terrible.
03:40:34 <Bike> I'm going along with it because I'm also terrible? I don't know.
03:41:16 <Fiora> the person who's arguing with you, I haven't even seen them post anything except off-topic video clips before this o_O
03:41:56 <Bike> I wish people wouldn't do the "thing is obviously absurd and useless" for things that obviously exist. It's so uncreative.
03:42:20 <Jafet> > ((1 +) * (2 +)) 3
03:42:22 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> a0))
03:44:08 <Bike> "This is a very simple example of a common pattern you will see throughout Haskell. Making basic functions that are obviously correct and then combining them into more complex functions." good tutorial, this
03:45:56 <Bike> ok i have a confession: I didn't know haskell actually had a basic if
03:46:16 <Bike> i thought you used case everywhere
03:48:17 <Jafet> Real functional programmers use if'
03:48:37 <Jafet> if syntax lets you do fun things with indentation though
03:49:10 * Bike hits tab a few times. what
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04:03:09 * oerjan assumes that Bike's "what" was followed by " could possibly go wrong?"
04:03:29 <Bike> "the hell just went wrong", more like.
04:03:59 <oerjan> whatever it was, the tabs swallowed it.
04:18:02 <Bike> Sgeo: So anyway, I'm curious, what's so alien about assembly?
04:18:48 <Sgeo> It's so... low-level
04:18:57 <Sgeo> I don't actually know Assembly really
04:19:07 <Bike> You didn't learn any in school?
04:19:24 <Sgeo> They teach assembly in schools?
04:19:29 <Sgeo> (My school sucked)
04:19:46 <Bike> Yeah, I learned basic ancient MIPS in arch class.
04:20:14 <Sgeo> I had an OS class. We wrote in C#, because the professor wrote a computer simulator thingy in C#
04:20:36 <Sgeo> Except it wasn't really a good simulator, since you didn't write things like memory management stuff in the assembly of the simulator, you wrote it in C#
04:20:50 <Fiora> we learned MIPS in the architecture class I took, and in another one of the low-level ones we had to learn basic x86 asm and how to debug with gdb, reverse engineer a basic program
04:21:07 <Fiora> like the program was a "bomb" and asked for a series of codes, and we had to use a debugger and look at the asm to figure out each code
04:21:15 <Fiora> and each one had a progressively more obfuscated way of validating the codes
04:21:24 <Bike> Sgeo: OS is a bit different from arch, I think.
04:21:29 <Fiora> and each time you inputted a wrong code, it'd email the teacher XD
04:21:52 <Bike> that seems like it'd just annoy them really
04:22:00 <Fiora> the professor would take off a small number of points for each one
04:22:08 <Fiora> (only up to a limited amount, it wasn't major)
04:22:14 <Fiora> it was mainly just to encourage people to figure out how to patch out the emailer
04:23:00 <Fiora> the OS class didn't have any outright asm but it did deal with a lot of low level stuff, since we were doing, like, paging and threading on a mips simulator
04:23:16 <Fiora> the intro CS class had a toy asm language that they used. that and python were the two intro languages
04:23:29 <Fiora> so um.... I guess there was kinda a good amount of asm
04:24:04 <Bike> Maybe it's related to Sgeo apparently getting some kind of IT degree, though he sure knows a lot of CS so I get confused about what the heck he was actually taught.
04:25:04 <Fiora> they definitely did a good job at being varied, I mean, there was everything from a class that covered natural deduction and formal logic and stuff (and had no coding!) to scheme and haskell and java and C++ and asm and stuff
04:25:20 <Fiora> and prolog. prolog says No., fiora, you are not getting an A.
04:25:26 <Sgeo> Bike, http://www.farmingdale.edu/academics/business/bcs/courses.shtml
04:25:54 <Bike> I also get confused that you actually lived in a place called Farmingdale, and I can see cows from my fucking window.
04:26:09 <Bike> "Programming in Visual Basic " oh you poor dear
04:26:30 <Sgeo> There ... was a C++ one too
04:26:36 <Sgeo> I don't know why it's not there
04:27:03 <Fiora> I don't think we actually had any courses called 'programming in <language>'
04:27:11 <Fiora> like gosh I can't remember any, I don't think they existed
04:27:14 <Sgeo> Oh, they're still there, just not called "C++"
04:27:16 <Bike> well that seems pretty boring overall
04:27:28 <Bike> hm let me see if there were any "programming in X" classes at my old school
04:27:45 <Fiora> I guess the closest we had to that is the intro course was mostly python, and the data structures class was mostly C++
04:27:46 <Sgeo> Also this is available courses, it's not like all of them were mandatory
04:28:10 <Bike> Fiora: well you're learning programming, not learning a language, at least nominally.
04:28:22 <Bike> the compilers course used Lisp but it's not like they'd advertise that as "lisp programming" :P
04:28:23 <Fiora> yeah, that's what I mean
04:28:29 <Bike> http://schedules.wsu.edu/List/Vancouver/20133/CS
04:28:51 <Fiora> the compiler course I took used haskell but like. only a little bit of it covered haskell
04:28:53 <Bike> haha advanced topics is concurrency.
04:28:59 <Fiora> the professor kind of expected us to magically figure everything out after the first two weeks <.<
04:29:17 <Bike> i thought haskell let you do everything magically?? was i wrong
04:29:26 <Bike> but yeah i have a compilers book that uses SML and it's like dude i don't know SML what is this
04:30:21 <Bike> related to haskell: is there a way to keep infinite lists from printing forever because that's pretty much not what I want?
04:30:25 <Fiora> so my memories of haskell are like, a mix of "gosh this is hard and oh gosh how do monads work and aghhhhh" and "wow pattern matching is so cool and the type system and omg"
04:30:36 <Sgeo> Bike, can turn it into a finite list
04:30:43 <Sgeo> take 50 yourList
04:31:05 <Sgeo> Or Ctrl-C if that's what you mean, although I don't know what the emacs-y version is
04:31:27 <Bike> it's still ctrl-c (inferior-haskell is pretty much just a shell anyway)
04:31:59 <Bike> it's just in CL I can do (setf *print-length* 50) and then when i do something stupid it at least stops. i imagine there's some config option for ghci, just wondering if anybody knows it
04:33:42 <Sgeo> Try asking in Haskell?
04:33:58 <Bike> oops i thought this was #haskell
04:35:59 <Fiora> close enough, right? XD
04:37:15 <Bike> Looks like lambdabot just puts an ellipsis there after some characters with no regard to anything.
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07:11:50 <HackEgo> 11) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 14) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 15) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. plea
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08:03:50 <Jafet> Spell of summon fungot
08:03:50 <fungot> Jafet: abstraction by not explicitly renaming anything will interact very poorly and have strange bugs. in that time
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10:11:59 <fizzie> http://ideone.com/luw5I2 that was kind of funny. (It doesn't do that on *my* 4.7.2.)
10:12:16 <fizzie> (I know it's probably a bad, I was just curious.)
10:15:07 <Fiora> that's pretty amazing
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12:13:38 <cookienugget> ah, I remembered the lang wih the arrows, it was ziim
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13:15:12 <Sgeo> :( I didn't eat dinner yet and it's now 8:15 AM
13:15:16 <Sgeo> I did fall asleep
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15:07:34 <Sgeo> Another company wants to pay me more than Ipreo (if they hire me), but it's more of a temporary position
15:36:03 <fungot> quintopia: i do not know
15:36:21 <quintopia> are you quoting zzo38 at me fungot
15:36:21 <fungot> quintopia: i don't believe in wimpy shortcut functions. let them eat their ice cream or water ice on a small board in my case
15:38:03 <fungot> boily: what about naivity, then?
15:38:54 <boily> quintopia: hungry. some vietnamese demon has been visiting my mind and urging me to eat pho.
15:39:15 <boily> fungot: don't you dare undiaerese naïvity at me, you rambunctious bot!
15:39:16 <fungot> boily: apparently lostchild doesn't msn, since that idea doesn't strike me as being overconfident n00b... so i'm trying to figure out
15:39:16 <quintopia> boily: i think this demon has your best interests at heart
15:39:49 <quintopia> boily: it's spelled naïvete actually. i think fungot just misspelled nativity
15:39:49 <fungot> quintopia: you did it right. " would somebody please find a gimp irc channel and try to infer types
15:40:30 <quintopia> even fungot agrees i fixed his mistake
15:40:39 <fungot> quintopia: if i avoid any dependence whatsoever on state held in the surrounding emacs instance, the repl didn't fnord and had these bug guys called fnord
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15:50:34 <Sgeo> I am now addicted to http://www.bonkersworld.net/
15:53:30 <coppro> https://developers.google.com/events/io/
15:56:33 <boily> after the wobbly shapes, a game.
15:58:58 <Sgeo> I don't get the wobbly shapes. It's not asking to input 13. I got the answer, but only because I was quasi-randomly clicking around
16:00:11 <Sgeo> Oh, there are all several ones
16:02:57 <Sgeo> I'm used to Simon ending at 10
16:03:06 <Sgeo> Because it was a puzzle in Mutation
16:03:11 <Sgeo> (I usually cheated)
16:14:56 <nooodl> what language is metasepia
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16:20:35 <Sgeo> Since it's also a chat thing, I just typed the number of each one into the chat bo
16:22:30 <Taneb> I've bought a vaguely popular album
16:23:19 <quintopia> so it's not too late to cancel the order and pirate it!
16:23:33 <Taneb> I'm holding the CD!
16:23:39 <Taneb> I'm playing the CD
16:23:45 <Taneb> And I've got the CD case here
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16:26:16 <Taneb> On another note, I'm beginning to really enjoy Schlock Mercenary
16:26:26 <Taneb> I'm up to.. February 2004
16:26:31 <Taneb> At two pages a day
16:27:18 <quintopia> oh okay, so in a few more decades you might be caught up
16:30:40 <Taneb> I'm a tad confused how RhythmBox can only work out the length of one track
16:32:11 <olsner> CDs actually only store the length of track numbers that are multiples of 7, good cd players use sofisticated heuristics to figure out the rest of it
16:39:12 <Taneb> Also, I found out recently that the E in "Ngevd" doesn't stand for elliott, after all.
16:39:16 <Taneb> It stands for eliot.
16:39:53 <olsner> pretty sure the e stands for ngevd, it's a recursive acronym
16:40:57 <Taneb> olsner, that's what the G stands for
16:41:06 <Taneb> I'm not Nathan Ngevd Ngevd van Doorn
16:41:09 <olsner> the g? there is no g in ngevd
16:42:49 <boily> Nguyen Nguyen Engevd van Doorn?
16:43:50 <olsner> NGevd ngEvd ngeVd ngevD
16:44:50 <HackEgo> ,WAc;ME6rH7ysF'U@?Dvij\]$5iהV3"4UٛZ5K߲b3QdW#!kftPڭYt<b2KNurL0 \ #{l֒qAjr+"֠oYn(XYPBe1<l.}aΘaR*sNTζ,,)x(baH$A~$[2Uon3>DnF!men}$.Ke=֜7,͕tE#CxZ(]zϤ82msċXA.gG
16:45:02 <Taneb> shachaf, that's Ngevd
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16:45:28 <boily> I really should correct that italics-screen-urxvt combo bug.
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16:47:15 <boily> italics are rendered as reverse video in my terminal when I'm in screen, which means all the time.
16:47:43 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, there's a stronghold on the Minecraft server
16:47:53 <cookienugget> why is most of your terminal text in italics ?
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16:49:45 <boily> cookienugget: it usually isn't, as normal text is. I'm just always not far away from a screen session, and when someone ngevds, I like it to be properly rendered.
16:49:52 <boily> I mean, it's a matter of honour.
16:50:56 <shachaf> Taneb: What does the nge stand for?
16:51:36 <Taneb> "Nathan George Eliot"
16:54:10 <Taneb> Partially because I am annoyed by how insistent GNU is on tacking itself onto Linux's name when it's used as an OS
16:54:23 <Taneb> Partially, because, as the ancient war-ballad goes,
16:54:27 <Taneb> "That's not my name"
16:54:31 <Taneb> "That's not my name"
17:08:05 <Gregor> That advise does not help.
17:08:15 <Gregor> I can't even type properly with these fool things.
17:10:05 <Taneb> Gregor, have you been playing Sburb and combining a computer with your glasses
17:11:27 <Sgeo> Does Gregor Homestuck?
17:11:31 <Sgeo> If not, he should.
17:12:09 <shachaf> Gregor: To be fair your question wasn't helpful either.
17:12:36 <Gregor> Where by "new" I mean "I have never worn any sort of vision correction in my life"
17:12:48 <Gregor> I don't know how to glasses.,
17:13:15 <Sgeo> Unfold them, so you get two pointing things hanging out. Put on such that pointy things are above ears
17:13:26 <Gregor> Yeah, I got that much.
17:13:44 <shachaf> Gregor: Oh, I remember that.
17:13:51 <Taneb> Gregor, the pointy things hanging out point downwards
17:13:56 * shachaf got glasses -- ~6 years ago?
17:14:13 <Taneb> Well, they hook downwards
17:14:26 <Gregor> shachaf: HOW DO YOU GLASSES
17:14:36 <shachaf> Gregor: It sort of happens automatically.
17:14:38 <Taneb> Gregor, try to walk around with them on
17:14:42 <Gregor> shachaf: Or perhaps more importantly, does the adjustment phase end? Because right now everything is much clearer without them.
17:14:49 <Gregor> Taneb: They're not general-purpose, walkin' around sort of glasses.
17:15:01 <shachaf> Oh, I think we're talking about different things.
17:15:13 <shachaf> Mine were general-purose, walkin' around sort of glasses.
17:15:24 <Sgeo> Erm, they should be clearer when worn, if a bit confusing
17:15:29 <Gregor> By my understanding, the concept is the same X-D
17:15:37 <Sgeo> Then again, the glasses I've worn aren't really that strong
17:15:38 <fizzie> I got glasses some 18 years ago, I think.
17:15:58 <Gregor> They're not general-purpose because their focal areas (or whatever these are called) are optimized for computer use, not general use.
17:16:06 <Gregor> But they're still supposed to be glasses X-D
17:16:18 <Gregor> HOLY CRAP IT IS CLEARER WITH THEM ON
17:16:38 <Gregor> It's just hard to know where/how to look at things.
17:16:38 <Sgeo> Yes, that's supposed to happen.
17:16:44 <shachaf> Gregor: You're missing out on the experience of looking at trees!
17:16:55 <Gregor> shachaf: I can look at trees without glasses >_>
17:17:04 <Gregor> Or I can play Minecraft and look at trees with glasses.
17:17:50 <shachaf> Gregor: The experience of seeing Minecraft-looking trees turn into real-world-looking trees when you put your glasses on.
17:18:00 <Gregor> shachaf: My eyes are nowhere near that bad.
17:18:16 <fizzie> My trees are much less cubical even without glasses.
17:18:18 <shachaf> But it was still quite an experience, looking at trees!
17:18:23 <Gregor> Actually, I have 20/20 vision, I just get eyestrain due to focal issues.
17:18:24 <fizzie> The resolution is approximately Minecrafty, though.
17:18:31 <Sgeo> Hallways. It's hallways that get me.
17:18:56 <fizzie> I get this "holy crap the world is so bright and sharp" feeling every time I clean my glasses, though. (I can manage that maybe once a month, so they're quite... opaque immediately before.)
17:18:58 <Taneb> I'm not good at reading signs
17:18:59 <Sgeo> My right eye's fine, my left eye isn't. So it's always a trip being able to have real depth perception
17:22:34 <fizzie> I've got glasses of strength somewhere around -4.0 to -4.5, which is I guess reasonably a lot but not terribly a horribly much.
17:25:58 <fizzie> Gregor: Have you considered a monocle? You seem a monocle kind of a guy.
17:26:09 <shachaf> Perhaps even two monocles.
17:26:24 <fizzie> Maybe two monocles connected with some kind of a bridge over the nose.
17:26:25 <Gregor> And for efficiency, the monocles can be attached via the nose.
17:27:17 <fizzie> Also, a monocle sounds more appropriate for "computer stuff", too. Glasses for general use, a monocle for operating a computer, that's the general rule.
17:29:19 <hagb4rd|lounge> a monocle, a smoking, a top hat, white gloves and maybe a kind of sword cane
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17:33:47 <shachaf> kmc: I ended up taking M60 to the Harlem-125th Metro-North station.
17:34:08 <shachaf> Then I got on the express train instead of the local train, and went to Yonkers.
17:36:15 <fizzie> Is that like being bonkers, except with Y?
17:40:02 <hagb4rd> gregor: my dictionary says "tuxedo" or "dinner jacket". for that i wonder why we name it "smoking" here in germany.
17:40:21 <Gregor> "Smoking jacket" is a thing.
17:40:31 <Gregor> Perhaps "smoking" is a German shortform of that?
17:41:35 <Gregor> Actually, I have a top hat and white gloves already.
17:41:48 <Gregor> So all I need is to saw these glasses in half and get a smoking jacket.
17:42:11 <fizzie> And all you need to get a smoking jacket is a book of matches and a regular jacket.
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17:48:49 <oklopol> also is it a game? i have a hard time finding something meaningful to do in the second level.
17:49:48 <oklopol> oh there are multiple second levels.
17:49:56 <oklopol> just like Sgeo said, i suppose.
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17:53:35 <kmc> shachaf: cool
17:54:03 <kmc> oh you were not trying to get to yonkers were you
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17:54:27 <shachaf> No, I was trying to get to Spuyten Duyvil.
17:54:35 <kmc> did you get back?
17:55:07 <shachaf> The conductor wrote me an impromptu ticket back.
17:57:55 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6TVVP-gy1Q
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18:35:15 <Sgeo> Maybe I could understand quantum computing if I learn the monad that someone wrote for it
18:37:20 <Taneb> I think a quantum computing monad'd be more useful on a quantum computer
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18:42:59 <Sgeo> It comes with a simulator
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19:03:37 <mroman_> Program received signal SIGTRAP, Trace/breakpoint trap.
19:03:39 <mroman_> 0x77515655 in ntdll!RtlpSetUserPreferredUILanguages () from C:\Windows\system32\ntdll.dll
19:09:51 <boily> someone forgot a breakpoint.
19:15:16 <mroman_> warning: Heap block at 00530F60 modified at 00530F6C past requested size of 4
19:15:30 <mroman_> I must be doing something horribly wrong then :D
19:15:52 <Taneb> Trivia: it's difficult to guess how to code in C++
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19:26:10 <mroman_> but interesting that it worked :)
19:26:12 <Taneb> I tried and got 14 pages of errors
19:26:20 <mroman_> struct foobar* = malloc(sizeof(struct foobar*));
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19:27:13 <AnotherTest> mroman_: that looks like undefined behavior
19:27:13 <lambdabot> AnotherTest: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
19:27:26 <pikhq_> That looks like a parse error.
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19:28:04 <pikhq_> struct foobar *foo = malloc(sizeof *foo); // may be what you wanted
19:28:58 <boily> Taneb: how do you define a page?
19:29:13 <mroman_> pikhq_: struct foobar* foo = malloc(sizeof(foo*)); is what I did
19:29:15 <Taneb> Probably bigger than the standard size
19:30:11 <pikhq_> Yeah, that's still a parse error.
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19:31:26 <Taneb> Okay, if I actually printed this out, it's be just over 9 pages
19:34:22 <Taneb> Size 10, liberation mono, chrome's default
19:34:42 <Taneb> 10mm at top, 14.5mm at bottom,10mm at sides
19:38:47 <mroman_> also "foobar"->foobar is apparentely legal
19:40:53 <Taneb> Look, do you just want me to link it to you?
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19:42:50 <Taneb> http://sprunge.us/SBTS
19:44:40 <Sgeo> Enya literally lives in a castle.
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19:46:29 <Sgeo> Michael Flatley also wanted that castle
19:46:34 <Sgeo> I... just... wat.
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20:52:48 <oerjan> <hagb4rd> gregor: my dictionary says "tuxedo" or "dinner jacket". for that i wonder why we name it "smoking" here in germany. <-- it's smoking in norwegian too fwiw
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20:55:42 <Sgeo> Well, that was easy
20:58:32 <oerjan> does that mean you have a job now?
20:59:26 <Sgeo> It was just a "technical pre-screen"
21:01:39 <oerjan> aka an x-ray demanded by their insurance company, if you pass you get a _damn_ good health insurance
21:01:45 <Gregor> "What is 1+3?" "If I give you a computer, a hammer and a screwdriver, which tool would you use to open the computer?"
21:02:34 <oerjan> the hammer is nice for when the screwdriver isn't working properly, right?
21:02:41 <Taneb> Gregor, 1+3 is 1+3. Personally I'd use the computer.
21:02:43 <boily> I'd use the computer to open it.
21:02:51 <boily> darn. Taneb is quicker than me.
21:03:03 <Taneb> boily, great minds think alike!
21:03:36 <oerjan> great minds sometimes skip the most obvious jokes.
21:03:49 <Sgeo> It was a thing where they asked questions and then they see exactly what you type and delete etc
21:04:13 <Sgeo> I actually have a link to the questions and my answers, but don't know if it's a good idea to just go around sharing it
21:04:17 <Taneb> oerjan, why discard the most obvious
21:04:35 <Taneb> Discard the most subtle, because nobody's gonna get thsoe
21:04:51 <oerjan> but neither was subtle.
21:04:59 <boily> oerjan: it's the end of the day, and I'm only on my... *count on his fingers*... around 4th cup of coffee, ±2.
21:05:11 <boily> oerjan: my brains aren't working anymore.
21:05:44 <oerjan> i'm on my first half cup of coffee. i didn't want more as my stomach isn't too well.
21:08:22 <boily> @tell quintopia Btw, this lunch's pho was good. I did well to listen to my Vietnamese demon.
21:08:42 <quintopia> @tell boily sounds good. but i'm gonna have fried chicken! ha
21:13:54 <oerjan> my demon must be from somewhere else, it only wants me to eat children, although none of the restaurants around here serve it.
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21:21:35 <Gregor> oerjan: *serve, "none" uses plural verbs.
21:23:05 <oerjan> is this one of those british/american things?
21:24:21 <Gregor> This is one of those correct/incorrect things.
21:24:29 <Gregor> "serve" is correct, and "serves" is incorrect.
21:24:32 <oerjan> "Usually, a singular verb follows NONE, even if the noun following it is plural."
21:25:06 <Gregor> Um... no? What completely-broken source are you getting that from?
21:26:01 <oerjan> one of the google summaries for "none verb subject agreement"
21:27:38 <Gregor> “Usually, a singular verb follows NONE, even if the noun following it is plural. However, in
21:27:38 <Gregor> conversational English, a plural noun has become acceptable.”
21:27:42 <Bike> they both seem right to me
21:27:49 <Sgeo> > <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `<'
21:27:53 <oerjan> http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/sv_agr.htm is more subtle.
21:27:58 <Sgeo> > <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `<'
21:28:00 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `<'
21:28:06 <quintopia> i think "serves" is what I taught as a tutor
21:28:07 <lambdabot> quintopia: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
21:28:19 <lambdabot> elliott asked 2m 27d 14h 55m 5s ago: is the description for quintopia_a on the strategies page up-to-date for space_hotel?
21:28:19 <lambdabot> ais523 said 2m 14d 6h 9m 12s ago: I made a program based on what we discussed, and a few other concepts too; see ais523_stealth
21:28:19 <lambdabot> ais523 said 27d 18h 42m 27s ago: I just beat space_hotel by over 10 score :) Can you remember when anticipation2 topped the hill (2012, or 2013)? I want to write about it and about omnipotence
21:28:19 <lambdabot> boily said 19m 57s ago: Btw, this lunch's pho was good. I did well to listen to my Vietnamese demon.
21:28:34 <jconn> Sgeo: |value error: foobar
21:28:43 <Sgeo> ) Sgeo: |value error: foobar
21:28:44 <jconn> Sgeo: |spelling error
21:28:44 <jconn> Sgeo: | Sgeo: |value error: foobar
21:28:50 <impomatic> Does Mannerisky still visit #esoteric?
21:28:50 <Sgeo> ) Sgeo: |spelling error
21:28:51 <jconn> Sgeo: |spelling error
21:28:51 <jconn> Sgeo: | Sgeo: |spelling error
21:29:09 <Bike> damn you, multiline errors
21:30:58 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Hmm'
21:31:12 <oerjan> > Not in scope: data constructor `Not'
21:31:13 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: parse error on input `in'
21:33:20 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (a0 -> GHC.Base.String))
21:33:46 <Sgeo> Should make a Haskell program to make error quines
21:34:14 <oerjan> nooodl_: but not an error
21:34:16 <Bike> remotely functional languages really take the fun out of quines :'(
21:36:25 <nooodl_> > <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `<'
21:36:26 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `<'
21:37:08 <nooodl_> i wonder if there's any error quines that aren't parse errors
21:37:35 <Sgeo> > not in scope
21:37:37 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: parse error on input `in'
21:37:57 <Sgeo> That in causes parse errors, unless you can find a way to work around it
21:38:11 <Sgeo> Or find an error other than not in scope errors
21:38:24 <Sgeo> > No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (a0 -> GHC.Base.String))
21:38:25 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:4: parse error on input `instance'
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21:38:38 <Sgeo> Can't use no instance errors
21:38:43 <Sgeo> > fromJust Nothing
21:38:45 <lambdabot> *Exception: Maybe.fromJust: Nothing
21:38:53 <Sgeo> That would probably be a parse error
21:40:30 <kallisti> let's say you have a corpus of text to train an AI with
21:40:53 <nooodl_> > (<hint>:1:59: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
21:40:55 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:59: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
21:40:55 <Sgeo> And let's say that corpus of text is fungot's collected wisdom.
21:40:56 <fungot> Sgeo: i don't even have to be loaded. thus loading the srfis is implementation-dependant and not portable for every goddamn thing we suggest. i've just got home and called me away from my reading list for too long
21:40:56 <kallisti> how do you take an input sentence and determine which words are "the most interesting"?
21:41:22 <nooodl_> look for the least frequent ones?
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21:41:46 <Bike> Interesting to what? For what?
21:43:04 <kallisti> my guess would be that you lookup each word from the input sentence in your corpus and determine their frequency of occurence, then calculate the standard deviation of all the words' frequencies and accept only words below a threshhold
21:43:10 <lambdabot> mueval-core: L.hs: removeLink: does not exist (No such file or directory)
21:43:10 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `can't'Not in scope: `file'Not in scope: `L.hs'
21:43:22 <nooodl_> close enough. you get the idea
21:44:19 <kallisti> Bike: interesting for the purposes of making a passable chat bot that can reply to things
21:48:12 <kallisti> I think you want 2 markov models
21:48:18 <oerjan> > var$ap(++)show"var$ap(++)show"
21:48:19 <kallisti> so that you can construct a sentence "around" a given keyword
21:48:24 <kallisti> the stuff before and the stuff after
21:48:45 <kallisti> but that only works with one keyword. not sure how you could incorporate multiple keywords into this process
21:49:50 <oerjan> > var$(++)<*>show$"var$(++)<*>show$"
21:49:52 <lambdabot> var$(++)<*>show$"var$(++)<*>show$"
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21:52:54 <shachaf> 13:16 <mauke> > mueval: recoverEncode: invаlid argument (invalid character)
21:53:03 <shachaf> > mueval: recoverEncode: invаlid argument (invalid character)
21:53:04 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
21:53:08 <shachaf> Sadly it's not a real quine.
21:53:17 <oerjan> > join fun"join fun"::Expr
21:53:38 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a0' in the constraints:
21:54:08 <quintopia> shachaf: because of the extra space?
21:54:18 <shachaf> No, because it's different text.
21:54:42 <oerjan> > expr$join fun "expr$join fun"
21:55:34 <oerjan> > expr.join fun$ "expr.join fun$"
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22:02:27 <oerjan> > "(++)??show"&(++)??show
22:02:29 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a0 -> b0'
22:02:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:02:52 <lambdabot> Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b
22:04:53 <oerjan> > "&([show,id]=<<)"&([show,id]=<<)
22:04:54 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char -> [b0]'
22:05:42 <oerjan> > "&(??)[show,id]"&(??)[show,id]
22:05:44 <lambdabot> ["\"&(??)[show,id]\"","&(??)[show,id]"]
22:05:47 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
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22:06:36 <oerjan> > "&var.sequence[show,id]"&var.sequence[show,id]
22:06:37 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char'
22:06:50 <oerjan> somehow i don't seem to get this
22:08:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:08:47 <lambdabot> The operator `Control.Lens.Combinators.&' [infixl 1] of a section
22:12:13 <oerjan> > "&var&(??)join$fun.show.show" &var&(??)join$fun.show.show
22:12:14 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a0' in the constraints:
22:16:00 <lambdabot> The operator `Control.Monad.=<<' [infixr 1] of a section
22:16:06 <lambdabot> The operator `GHC.Base.>>=' [infixl 1] of a section
22:17:29 <lambdabot> The operator `Control.Lens.Combinators.??' [infixl 1] of a section
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22:24:31 <oerjan> > "& fun.show <*> expr & expr" & fun.show <*> expr & expr
22:24:32 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char]'
22:24:58 <lambdabot> The operator `Control.Applicative.<*>' [infixl 4] of a section
22:25:25 <oerjan> > "& fun.show <*> expr & expr" & fun.show <*> expr
22:25:26 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char]'
22:26:26 <oerjan> > "& fun.show <*> var & expr" & fun.show <*> var & expr
22:26:28 <lambdabot> "& fun.show <*> var & expr" & fun.show <*> var & expr
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23:47:55 <elliott> 03:32:25 <Fiora> elliott: narcolepsy is not that fun
23:48:00 <elliott> Fiora: it sounds convenient!
23:48:31 <elliott> well at least it couldn't make my sleep schedule any worse :P
23:48:55 <Sgeo> There are headphones that adjust volume to prevent hearing loss, right?
23:49:27 <Fiora> not on meds: feeling really tired all day, having trouble focusing and thinking well, falling asleep for random time periods in the evening, totally throwing my sleep schedule off, and making me end up awake at 12 AM to 5 AM which is... when none of my friends are awake and then it's all lonely
23:49:55 <shachaf> Make differently-scheduled friends.
23:50:04 <elliott> ok narcolepsy probably wouldn't be an improvement
23:50:14 <Fiora> on meds: hyperfocused, even more anxiety than usual, nervousness
23:50:14 <elliott> but my sleep schedule is roughly that bad to start with
23:50:42 <elliott> how about a special kind of narcolepsy where it only makes you go to sleep when you should be sleeping, i could go for that
23:51:17 <Fiora> (to be fair I'm not sure which I'd prefer, not being able to sleep is pretty awful too)
23:51:33 <nooodl_> did you see my Inv isomorphisms thingy; if so: was it really related to lenses somehow
23:51:36 <Fiora> and it's easy to emulate: try to nap around 5 hours after taking meds <.<
23:52:10 <Sgeo> elliott, I can confirm that it is possible to fix sleep cycles
23:52:18 <Sgeo> My current sleep cycle is quite good
23:52:47 <Bike> in college sgeo only got irrational time intervals of sleep. very unpleasant
23:52:55 <elliott> i could probably fix mine with enough dedication and willpower but the problem is that i am by far the most productive when i should be sleeping
23:53:01 <elliott> so it is kind of bad either way :(
23:53:23 <Sgeo> elliott, lose a few days of productivity so that you can be productive when you shouldn't be sleeping
23:54:09 <cookienugget> noise and distractions are a things that happens mostly when others are awake
23:54:11 <elliott> Sgeo: in my experience I am pretty much only ever motivated to/good at programming late at night
23:54:17 <elliott> I guess I could wake up really early
23:54:24 <Bike> are you judging the programming late at night also
23:54:43 <elliott> Bike: what are you implying!!!
23:54:47 <elliott> also did you learn Haskell yet
23:55:14 <Bike> i think i've got most of it now what are these "type" things
23:55:15 <shachaf> I'm slowly recovering from my lackofsleeping.
23:55:17 <Sgeo> @hoogle zipWithin
23:55:25 <Sgeo> @hayoo needs to be a command
23:55:33 <Bike> or more concretely: i'm curious how cases where one of the cases is an object instead of a constructor pattern works
23:55:48 <Bike> does it get lifted to a typeish thing
23:55:53 <elliott> Bike: what do you mean by object?
23:56:19 <Bike> Just like the basic case n of {0 -> 1; n -> n * fact (n - 1)}
23:56:32 <Bike> (I'm assuming Integer isn't actually defined as blablapeano)
23:56:42 <Sgeo> Pretend that numbers are constructors
23:56:43 <shachaf> Which part of that is the object?
23:57:05 <elliott> object is a bad word for that
23:57:10 <shachaf> Pattern-matching on numbers is just a special case.
23:57:11 <elliott> it seems like you're saying what if it's a "primitive type"
23:57:15 <elliott> in this case it just becomes
23:57:21 <elliott> if n == 0 then 1 else n * fact (n - 1)
23:57:28 <shachaf> (Except it gets turned into something else with GHC and Ints.)
23:57:31 <elliott> which is about number literals yeah
23:57:42 <elliott> same for something like Char or whatever I guess
23:58:04 <elliott> note that that "case n" works even if n is a peano numeral or whatever!
23:58:07 <elliott> as long as you have a Num instance
23:58:12 <Bike> But it works for case x of {[4] -> [5]; x:xs -> xs} too, I mean.
23:58:20 <shachaf> Char is not overloaded so its definition doesn't need to mention (==)
23:58:32 <shachaf> Bike: Yes, because you're pattern-matching on a list and then on a number.
23:58:45 <shachaf> And we've already said what pattern-matching on a number is like.
23:58:45 <Bike> Or some thing not involving typeclasses not that that's probably actually relevant
23:58:59 <elliott> Bike: data [a] = [] | a : [a]
23:59:04 <elliott> data List a = Nil | Cons a (List a)
23:59:11 <elliott> the constructors have a funky name but that's really all they are
23:59:16 <elliott> [1,2,3] is just sugar for 1:2:3:[]
23:59:25 <shachaf> Language primitives that have special-cased expression syntax -- like lists, numbers, Char, String, ... -- usually also have special-case number syntax.
23:59:26 <Bike> Ok, but so you can match on literals?
23:59:48 <shachaf> This is only sugar, though; for the most part ADTs are what counts.
23:59:49 <elliott> Bike: data Foo = Bar Int String
23:59:57 <elliott> case x of {Bar n xs -> ...}
00:00:06 <elliott> no difference between that and matching on lists really
00:00:35 <shachaf> elliott: Except lists have a magic syntax.
00:00:39 <Bike> And you can do that recursively, like case x of {Bar 0 xs -> ...; Bar n xs -> ...} works. Right?
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00:00:48 <shachaf> [x] meaning (x:[]), and so on.
00:01:04 <elliott> Bike: that's not really recursively, but yes
00:01:10 <elliott> oh you mean the 0 inside the n
00:01:13 <shachaf> elliott: Well, the definition of pattern matching is recursive.
00:01:15 <elliott> Bike: well you know how expressions are made out of more expressions
00:01:19 <Bike> yeah, i'm just thinking of the definition
00:01:25 <elliott> like if you write Bar 123 "abc" that's because in (Bar x y) x and y are expressions
00:01:33 <elliott> patterns are just like expressions in that manner
00:01:34 <Bike> "pattern = literal | constructor patterns" or some shit
00:01:36 <shachaf> When you match on (Bar x y), x and y are also patterns.
00:01:50 <elliott> pat = variable | literal | constructor_name pat ...
00:01:52 <shachaf> Bike: Or variables, or a bunch of other things.
00:02:03 <elliott> exp = variable | literal | constructor_name exp ... | exp exp (function application)
00:02:17 <oerjan> ais523: i sense your correspondent is overly optimistic :P http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/19kjr5/fizzbuzz_revisited_using_rust/c8qx721?context=3
00:02:34 <ais523> oerjan: I downloaded a copy just in case :)
00:04:22 <Bike> shachaf: What is there besides variables
00:04:30 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> also did you learn Haskell yet <Bike> i think i've got most of it now what are these "type" things
00:04:33 <HackEgo> 980) <elliott> also did you learn Haskell yet <Bike> i think i've got most of it now what are these "type" things
00:05:06 <Bike> i'm only actually as far as comprehensions in lyah by the way, i just got bored about learning how to deal with linked lists for the seventh time
00:05:17 <shachaf> http://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch3.html#x8-580003.17
00:06:15 <Bike> irrefutable patterns were those things y'all were mucking about with a few days ago, eh
00:06:29 <nooodl_> ^ i recently realized how this is a valid list comprehension because of how pattern matching works. it was enlightening
00:08:41 <Bike> I'm going to have a hard time thinking of "linear" as linear logic and not linear operators, and also what nooodl_ did there which i'm sure is extremely important
00:08:57 <elliott> it's not extremely important
00:09:03 <nooodl_> maybe this is a better example of how pattern matching in list comprehensions works:
00:09:07 <nooodl_> > [x | (0,x) <- [(0,1),(1,2),(0,3),(1,4)]]
00:09:07 <elliott> it matches every element of the list against 3, if it fails the pattern doesn't match
00:09:19 <Bike> Oh. That's kind of weird.
00:09:36 <oerjan> > let [x1,x2,x3]@(_:test) = [1,2,3] in (x1,x2,x3,test)
00:09:38 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:15: parse error on input `@'
00:09:41 <elliott> > ["hello" ++ x | Just x <- [Nothing, Nothing, Just "hi", Just "bye", Nothnig]]
00:09:43 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Nothnig'
00:09:43 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `Nothing' (impo...
00:09:46 <elliott> > ["hello" ++ x | Just x <- [Nothing, Nothing, Just "hi", Just "bye", Nothing]]
00:09:48 <oerjan> bah @ takes only a variable to the left
00:10:17 <oerjan> shachaf: it is once you think about it, but i guess it doesn't come up much.
00:10:20 <elliott> oerjan: I think ski thinks it should take an expression to the left
00:10:27 <Bike> Should I ask how exception handlin works now or put it off hmmmmmmmmmm put it off
00:10:37 <elliott> Bike: there's no exceptions here
00:11:32 <Bike> no exceptions where
00:12:07 <shachaf> elliott: fail is totally "throw an exception", man.
00:12:20 <shachaf> "exception" can mean pretty much anything in Haskell.
00:12:39 <shachaf> foo :: Maybe Int -- foo either computes an Int or throws an exception
00:12:39 <Bike> lyah is going to tell me that this is not at all like your c++ man!! isn't it
00:12:57 <oerjan> elliott: an expression, how would that work?
00:13:11 <nooodl_> "In the first versions of Haskell, the comprehension syntax was available for all monads."
00:13:34 <shachaf> nooodl_: It's back in GHC!
00:13:34 <nooodl_> (it's on the wiki page for "List comprehension")
00:13:35 <oerjan> > let x1:test@[x2,x3] = [1,2,3] in (x1,x2,x3,test) -- it can be rewritten anyhow
00:13:37 <elliott> oerjan: I forget, maybe I was wrong
00:14:12 <nooodl_> shachaf: are they useful, though
00:14:24 <Fiora> Bike: what is it with nerds and language wars
00:14:48 <oerjan> > [x | x <- Just "test"]
00:14:50 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[t0]'
00:15:00 <Bike> I don't know. It's kind of boring. But also probably why I'm nominally learning Haskell.
00:15:01 <oerjan> not turned on in lambdabot :(
00:15:24 <shachaf> wanna wrestle on the floor about it
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00:15:44 <Fiora> how many millions of programmer-hours have been wasted debating C vs C++ <.<
00:15:46 <Bike> What are irrefutable patterns for?
00:16:17 <shachaf> Well, there are two "different" cases here.
00:16:25 <shachaf> The case where you have a sum type and the case where you don't.
00:17:19 <kmc> i choose the middle ground: C+
00:17:49 <Bike> microtones? i like microtones.
00:17:51 <Fiora> kmc, you need to study harder! you won't get into a good college with grades like those!
00:18:19 <Sgeo> kmc, I'm tempted to ask you how you think I did on my technical pre-screening thing
00:18:20 * Bike looks for half-sharp in unicode
00:19:12 <Bike> It's halfway between natural and sharp. It comes up in tuning systems that aren't 12-TET.
00:19:27 <kmc> Sgeo: how would I know?
00:19:29 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Arabic_music_notation_half_sharp.svg You're failing me, Unicode.
00:19:31 <shachaf> They should make "S Sharp" and spell it ß.
00:19:41 <Sgeo> kmc, because I can link you to the questions and my responses
00:19:55 <shachaf> Bike: 1D12A MUSICAL SYMBOL DOUBLE SHARP [𝄪]
00:20:09 <shachaf> The sharp envelope paradox.
00:20:15 <kmc> probably won't have time right now
00:20:18 <Bike> also: you know about how H is used in German muzik right
00:20:41 <Bike> good album (except you used the wrong characters!!!!!)
00:22:11 <elliott> life tip talk about other gybe albums to avoid having to type the fucking thing otu
00:22:23 <elliott> this life tip comes at the low low cost of free
00:23:09 <Bike> I don't think I can remember any of the other album titles. I just kind of string together some words involving explosions or fire or death or just sort of making a low droning sound with my mouth, and figure that's close enough.
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00:30:39 <kmc> elliott: that may be a life tip but would you call it a 'life hack'
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00:30:53 <elliott_> kmc: life hack: call all your life hacks life tips
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00:31:30 <Bike> That haskell.org page has the example of "(\ ~[x] -> x) [] ⇒ ⊥". Is it defined what that divergence means? Could an implementation just loop forever instead of coming back to tell me I'm an idiot?
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00:32:14 <shachaf> To the second question, that is.
00:32:36 <shachaf> It's defined in such a way that looping forever and coming backt to tell you you're an idiot are considered equivalent.
00:32:49 <shachaf> Note that in GHC this isn't true, since it lets you "catch" these things.
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00:33:13 <Bike> Oh, I see... if x is an expression with undefined behavior and y is non-strict than y x can have a defined result.
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00:33:38 <shachaf> By "undefined behavior" do you mean the C sense or the "behaves like undefined" sense.
00:34:28 <shachaf> I don't think a failed pattern match is undefined behavior in that sense?
00:34:40 <shachaf> But I might be wrong. I don't really know anything.
00:34:49 <Bike> It's defined to diverge and that's it, apparently?
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00:41:11 <oerjan> Bike: a _refutable_ pattern match doesn't diverge if it fails, mind you, as long as there are further alternative patterns to try
00:41:35 <Bike> Wouldn't be very good pattern matching if it only tried once..
00:42:33 <oerjan> but otherwise, divergence is essentially just another synonym for what we haskellers call "undefined" and "bottom". the haskell language report doesn't bother to distinguish different "program crashing" failure modes.
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00:43:31 <oerjan> although ghc's exception mechanism is based on someone writing a paper making just such extra distinctions.
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00:44:30 <oerjan> (although one that sometimes gives a nondeterministic result)
00:49:07 <kmc> yeah... denotationally, an expression's meaning is either a value or a /set/ of possible exceptions
00:49:36 <kmc> and the 'catch' operator picks one of those nondeterministically
00:49:48 <kmc> but that's fine because you only get it as the result of an IO action, and those are allowed to be nondeterministic
00:50:28 <Bike> This catch thing isn't standard Haskell?
00:50:50 <lambdabot> Prelude catch :: IO a -> (IOError -> IO a) -> IO a
00:50:50 <lambdabot> System.IO.Error catch :: IO a -> (IOError -> IO a) -> IO a
00:50:50 <lambdabot> Control.OldException catch :: IO a -> (Exception -> IO a) -> IO a
00:50:54 <kmc> iirc standard Haskell has only a really primitive exception mechanism for IOErrors
00:51:06 <kmc> no way to catch an exception thrown by pure evaluation, e.g. error / undefined
00:51:10 <lambdabot> Control.Exception.Base catch :: Exception e => IO a -> (e -> IO a) -> IO a
00:51:11 <lambdabot> Control.Exception catch :: Exception e => IO a -> (e -> IO a) -> IO a
00:51:11 <lambdabot> Control.OldException catchDyn :: Typeable exception => IO a -> (exception -> IO a) -> IO a
00:51:13 <kmc> nor divide by zero, etc
00:51:24 <Bike> good thing ghc is so huge then i guess
00:51:29 <kmc> i know, right
00:51:57 <Bike> I seem to remember standard ML having some decent exceptions stuff but I forgot.
00:52:03 <kmc> GHC also does asynchronous exceptions -- one thread can cause another thread to throw an exception wherever it's currently executing
00:52:12 <kmc> which causes additional problems
00:52:38 <Bike> oh man, awesome.
00:52:54 <Bike> Oh on that note, are threads standard?
00:52:56 <kmc> to avoid race conditions when setting up exn handlers, GHC lets you temporarly suspend / unsuspend processing of async exns
00:53:14 <kmc> async exns also include things like stack / heap overflow
00:53:19 <shachaf> Concurrent Haskell is standard-ish, but it's not part of the report.
00:54:07 <Bike> I had the vague idea that concurrent haskell involved concurrency mechanisms less wacked out then threads
00:54:26 <shachaf> Why are threads wacked out?
00:54:43 <Bike> everyone complains about 'em
00:55:13 <kmc> that's because they suck in other languages
00:55:30 <kmc> GHC has put a /lot/ of effort into making threads that don't suck
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00:55:34 <kmc> and history will pass it by for it
00:55:40 <kmc> because Everyone Knows that threads suck
00:55:45 <kmc> Bike: just a little
00:56:00 <kmc> shared memory multiprocessing is sort of a lie though
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00:56:09 <kmc> unclear this abstraction remains useful
00:56:37 <kmc> when your "shared memory" is actually a cache coherence protocol implemented between multiple processors and NUMA domains
00:56:44 <kmc> our machines are really distributed systems
00:57:16 <kmc> so maybe it's best to use a one-process-per-core model, and then it's easier to scale up past 1 machine as well
00:57:56 <Bike> I should probably make a bit clearer (like it's not) than I know jack all about concurrency, I just heard that threads aren't the best model.
00:58:50 <kmc> sometimes you just want parallel evaluation, not concurrent semantics, and GHC has something else for that
00:58:53 <kmc> but it's finicky
00:58:54 <Sgeo> What is a "thread"?
00:59:07 <Bike> a thread of execution?
00:59:17 <shachaf> A thread of execution of execution?
00:59:22 <Sgeo> Is it an OS level thread, which has a lot of baggage associated with it? Is it a conceptual separate execution?
00:59:29 <Bike> i just mean generally
00:59:37 <Bike> as opposed to i don't know, mapreducey primitives
00:59:42 <Bike> connection machine hilarity
00:59:54 <Sgeo> Are the people saying that threads suck speaking in general or with a view of OS threads?
01:00:10 <Bike> in general probably, as a conceptual thing
01:00:12 <kmc> everyone all the time is saying wrong things
01:00:12 <shachaf> Isn't map-reduce more about parallelism?
01:00:13 <kmc> everywhere
01:00:15 <kmc> including me
01:00:41 <Bike> see, i don't even remember what parallelism versus concurrency means (everybody saying wrong things more like me saying wrong things)
01:00:58 <kmc> people argue about those words too
01:01:05 <kmc> but according to GHC devs at least
01:01:08 <kmc> concurrency is semantics
01:01:21 <kmc> parallelism is implementation detail
01:01:34 <kmc> you can have parallel evaluation of expressions without any change in semantics
01:01:43 <Bike> mapreduce seems pretty semantic to me...
01:01:52 <kmc> and you can have concurrent semantics without truly executing stuff at the same time
01:01:57 <Sgeo> And you can have semantic concurrency on a single-core machine
01:02:06 <elliott> Bike: there is parallel haskell stuff thingy
01:03:28 <shachaf> Bike: If you have a mapreducey thing you can execute it all sequentially or in parallel for speed.
01:03:32 <elliott> i'm blown away by how fucking tired i am
01:03:34 <shachaf> You get the same results either way.
01:04:32 <Bike> elliott: uh i told you to sleep? way to drop the ball.
01:05:09 <Sgeo> @localtime elliott
01:05:11 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Fri Mar 8 01:05:10 2013
01:05:57 <Sgeo> @localtime HackEgo
01:06:03 <Bike> Didn't we already have a talk about privacy?
01:06:11 <Bike> And by we I mean you and elliott, I wasn't paying attention
01:09:41 <Sgeo> I love how Lojban has multiple words for 'we'
01:09:47 <Sgeo> One that includes 'you' and one that doesn't
01:10:03 <Bike> i don't think lojban is the only language that makes that distinction?
01:10:11 <shachaf> You enter the sauna. After several hours, you come out a changed man.[Your score just went up by 25 points, for a total of 250.] You have with you a changed plant.
01:10:50 <Sgeo> Bike, I'm not a linguist :/
01:12:21 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclusive_and_exclusive_we there we go.
01:12:28 <Bike> Clusivity. Awesome.
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01:21:27 <Sgeo> It bothers me a little that with Applicatives, there are a lot of functions with same or similar types that do different things
01:22:58 <Sgeo> elliott, didn't you tell me that <**> isn't just flip (<*>)?
01:23:05 <Sgeo> Docs say "A variant of '<*>' with the arguments reversed."
01:24:02 <Sgeo> > [1, 2, 3] <|> [4,5,6]
01:24:37 <Sgeo> > optional [1,2]
01:24:37 <lambdabot> Alternative f => f a -> f a -> f a
01:24:55 <Bike> @src Alternative
01:24:55 <lambdabot> class Applicative f => Alternative f where
01:26:36 <Sgeo> Docs should be fixed
01:26:43 <Sgeo> To make that clear
01:29:55 <Sgeo> Should I read Write Yourself a Scheme in 48 Hours?
01:31:11 <Bike> don't you already know haskell and scheme
01:33:47 <monqy> it's entirely possible
01:45:17 <Bike> I had a waking nightmare last night where the darkness of my room only resolved as slowly shrinking hexagons.
01:47:57 <shachaf> is that about Super Hexagon
01:48:07 <shachaf> i tried it and it seemed pointless?
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01:52:29 <Sgeo> I think <* is sexy and imperative programmers might like it
01:52:49 <Sgeo> Although I guess Lispers tend to already have something like it
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01:53:08 <Bike> Do you mean <*> or is there also an operator called <* for some godforsaken reason
01:53:29 <shachaf> it has the same type as flip (*>) but behaves differently
01:53:38 <lambdabot> Applicative f => f a -> f b -> f a
01:53:55 <lambdabot> Applicative f => f a -> f b -> f b
01:54:12 <Sgeo> shachaf, yeah, you were wrong. About being WRONG
01:54:33 <shachaf> IT'S A DIFFERENT TYPE IF YOU DON'T COUNT ALPHA-RENAMING
01:55:05 <Bike> @src Applicative
01:55:05 <lambdabot> class Functor f => Applicative f where
01:56:00 <shachaf> Bike: other operators that exist: <$> <$ >> <> >>> <<< <**>
01:56:19 <lambdabot> `$' (imported from Data.Function), `$!' (imported from Prelude),
01:56:25 <shachaf> << does not exist, partly because no one agrees on whether it should behave like (*>) or like flip (<*)
01:56:43 <shachaf> (<$) exists in Control.Comonad but not in base
01:56:46 <Bike> can't it just be shift WHAT ABOUT THE GOOD OLD DAYS MAN
01:58:36 <Sgeo> <* is kind of like prog1
01:59:33 <Bike> > 4 <* 5 -- somehow i doubt this is going to work
01:59:34 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (f b0))
01:59:34 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity check f...
01:59:46 <elliott> you could give an instance that made that work
02:00:05 <lambdabot> The operator `GHC.Base.<$' [infixl 4] of a section
02:00:07 <Bike> sgeo i must say that is like no prog1 i've heard of
02:00:35 <Bike> prog1 hardly seems very haskelly anyway
02:00:52 <Bike> monqy: execute first expression, execute rest of expressions, return first result, the end
02:01:01 <shachaf> Bike: It's like prog1 if it only took two arguments.
02:01:14 <shachaf> And if you extend the idea of "execution" a lot.
02:01:24 <Bike> > "Bike" <* "hello"
02:01:29 <monqy> Bike: the thing where it's funny with list is because of this "extension" of the idea of "Execution"
02:01:30 <Bike> This is an exciting extension!
02:01:40 <shachaf> Bike: It's nondeterminism.
02:01:46 <Sgeo> Bike, http://ideone.com/XiY5Sj
02:01:53 <shachaf> Think of it as forking a thread for each letter of "hello"!
02:02:10 <shachaf> Except it's deterministic nondeterminism, so it all comes out nicely interleaved in the end.
02:02:24 <monqy> > (,) <$> [1,2,3] <*> [4,5,6]
02:02:25 <lambdabot> [(1,4),(1,5),(1,6),(2,4),(2,5),(2,6),(3,4),(3,5),(3,6)]
02:02:27 <monqy> Bike: do you know what this means
02:02:53 <monqy> > [1,2,3] >>= \ x -> [4,5,6] >>= \ y -> return (x,y)
02:02:54 <lambdabot> [(1,4),(1,5),(1,6),(2,4),(2,5),(2,6),(3,4),(3,5),(3,6)]
02:03:04 <elliott> monqy: btw hes only onto the list comprehensions chapter of lyah
02:03:05 <Bike> I forget, is all this <> weirdness in lens or haskell
02:03:10 <elliott> imo we stop talking about applicatives and monads and shit
02:03:13 <shachaf> > [(x,y) | x <- [1,2,3], y <- [4,5,6]]
02:03:15 <lambdabot> [(1,4),(1,5),(1,6),(2,4),(2,5),(2,6),(3,4),(3,5),(3,6)]
02:03:20 <Bike> because this is kind of ridiculous?
02:03:20 <oerjan> shachaf: <$ is in base.
02:03:21 <monqy> elliott: i was just about to do the thing shachaf did
02:03:25 <monqy> elliott: but im slow at the Typing
02:03:36 <shachaf> Then the other one is in Control.Comonad.
02:03:37 <elliott> Bike: what's ridiculous is listening to #esoteric about anything
02:03:44 <elliott> stpo looking and look at lyah instead
02:03:44 <Bike> that is the lesson here.
02:03:47 <shachaf> monqy: i had a head start at the Typing
02:04:41 <Bike> uh oh i see "category"!!
02:04:42 <shachaf> imo my nondeterminism hint was helpful "in a maybe nonhelpful kind of way"
02:05:02 <monqy> it's helpful if you know that sense of what nondeterminism means
02:05:17 <shachaf> but maybe it's not so helpful to illustrate it
02:05:43 <Sgeo> Not helpful: Overloading Bike with operators
02:05:46 <Bike> "When writing our own functions, we can choose to give them an explicit type declaration. This is generally considered to be good practice except when writing very short functions." this seems like kind of a weird thing to say after bringing up type inference
02:05:53 <shachaf> there should be an implementation of [] that uses "real nondeterminism"
02:05:58 <elliott> type signatures work as documentation
02:06:12 <elliott> shachaf: lambdabot quotes remember
02:06:16 <elliott> Bike: you can figure out a lot about what a definition does from the type etc.
02:06:18 <Bike> "unlike java you don't have to write out types. so anyway, we're going to write out types"
02:06:22 <HackEgo> lastlog: unexpected argument: rwbarton.*infer \ Usage: lastlog [options] \ \ Options: \ -b, --before DAYS print only lastlog records older than DAYS \ -h, --help display this help message and exit \ -t, --time DAYS print only lastlog records more recent than DAYS \ -u, --user LOGIN
02:06:55 <shachaf> haskell/12.10.04:21:19:15 <rwbarton> type inference is supposed to be the compiler's job, not the reader's job
02:07:12 <monqy> good quote thanks rwbarton
02:07:23 <Sgeo> Bike, you don't really write out types with everything
02:07:34 <monqy> um maybe you don't
02:07:43 <Sgeo> In lets you typically don't
02:07:55 <shachaf> Sgeo: but what about MonoLocalBinds................
02:08:08 <shachaf> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/papers/constraints/let-gen.pdf
02:08:14 <Bike> i was just commenting on a weird quirk i'm well aware of documentation value and how it's different from java and bla? bla? bla? bla? bla?
02:08:16 <Sgeo> shachaf, haven't heard of it
02:08:28 <elliott> q q q qqq q qqq q q q q q q q q q
02:08:39 <HackEgo> Bike: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:08:39 <HackEgo> Bike: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:08:39 <HackEgo> Bike: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:08:45 <shachaf> oerjan: imo ask elliott to stop spamming
02:09:44 <Bike> the author sure likes comparing haskell to java
02:09:48 <shachaf> An invisible choir sings, and you are bathed in `welcomes...
02:10:30 <shachaf> The voice of Eliot booms out: "Congratulations, mortal!"
02:11:10 <Bike> Is there something like @src I can use in inferior-haskell?
02:11:17 <Sgeo> Bike, yeah. I prefer when better languages are compared with better languages
02:11:50 <shachaf> inferior-haskell? Is that what you get when you compare Haskell with @?
02:11:55 <Sgeo> "Why should I use this instead of Java?" is pretty much a joke, "Why should I use this instead of Haskell or Lisp or Smalltalk?" or something is far more interesting
02:12:09 <shachaf> Sgeo: No, it's still pretty much a joke.
02:12:12 <Bike> Don't make me defend Java dude. I'll do it. I'll jump.
02:12:24 <Bike> @src Ord -- anyway
02:12:25 <shachaf> the joke is people come into #haskell and ask that question and then there's a long pointless discussion
02:12:28 <lambdabot> (<), (<=), (>), (>=) :: a -> a -> Bool
02:12:42 <Bike> shachaf: so, like every other channel on freenode then
02:13:00 <Bike> I'm guessing < and pals have a default definition in terms of compare?
02:13:18 <shachaf> And compare has a default definition in terms of all of them simultaneously
02:13:22 <shachaf> Actually, just in terms of (<=)
02:13:47 <shachaf> btw (a -> a -> Ordering) is a monoid
02:13:57 <monqy> lots of things are monoids
02:14:03 <Sgeo> The fun part though is that there's no static checking whether you've satisfied the minimum needed :(
02:14:10 <Bike> How does only partially defining an instance work? Like how will it no that defining an instance of well, oh, thanks Sgeo.
02:14:13 <shachaf> Sgeo: The fun part is that there's a feature request for that!
02:14:28 <shachaf> Just needs someone (ie you) to implement it
02:14:36 <monqy> shachaf: is that just pointwise multiplication on pointwise multiplication on Ordering?
02:14:53 <monqy> or something special
02:15:07 <elliott> all he said is it's a monoid
02:15:10 <elliott> you don't get to find out which one
02:15:21 <Sgeo> Bike, pretty much just writing out the default definitions in terms of each other, and if there is no real implementation, it infinite loops
02:15:27 <shachaf> > sortBy (comparing length ++ compare) $ words "here are some words for monqy to show off how nice that 'unspecial' monoid instance is"
02:15:30 <lambdabot> ["is","to","are","for","how","off","here","nice","show","some","that","monq...
02:15:45 <Bike> Well that sucks.
02:15:54 <monqy> well i know all about Ordering's instance and how nice pointwise stuff is
02:16:15 <elliott> pointwise instances suck imo
02:16:40 <Bike> read "True" isn't constrained enough. What source or whatever do I look at to figure out why?
02:16:42 <monqy> i never said pointwise instances are nice!!!! just that pointwise ~stuff~ is nice....im undecided on pointwise instances
02:16:51 <elliott> Bike: read :: Read a => String -> a
02:16:59 <Sgeo> Bike, you need to tell it the type to give back to you
02:17:09 <Bike> I want to know what the ambiguity is between.
02:17:10 <elliott> well what d oyou mean by: figure out why
02:17:19 <elliott> as in even if you only had one Read instance it'd still give you that
02:17:39 <Bike> so read anything without constraints is ambiguous?
02:17:45 <shachaf> imo the clopen world assumption is better
02:17:55 <Sgeo> > read "12345"
02:17:57 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
02:18:09 <shachaf> Ambiguous if you don't use it in a polymorphic context.
02:18:12 <monqy> something something default something something
02:18:17 <monqy> probably it tried to read a unit
02:19:43 <Sgeo> I think it's far safer than having the type become known only at runtime
02:19:52 <Sgeo> *cough* recent RoR vulnerabilities *cough*
02:20:32 <monqy> also Sgeo: defining something "pointwise" means "something like"(im not going to bothere explaing it in full generality or formal gosh) (f + g)(x) := f(x) + g(x)
02:20:38 <monqy> hopefully you "get the idea"
02:20:54 <monqy> then you have addition on functions "point wise"
02:20:56 <Bike> there was some thing about yaml doing weird things because weirdness
02:21:23 <monqy> you'll also see it on tuples a lot!!! (x, y) + (a, b) := (x + a, y + b)
02:21:27 <lambdabot> monochrom says: Ask Coq. Don't rely on head.
02:21:31 <lambdabot> monochrom says: There are truths, damn truths, and Kripke structures.
02:21:54 <lambdabot> monochrom says: If you read a haskell book or an FP book, by chapter 5 it's already doing data structures. It's chapter 10 in imperative books.
02:21:55 <elliott> monqy: um tuples are just functions
02:22:14 <Bike> don't you mean morphisms something something
02:22:33 <monqy> elliott: yes but does sgeo know that
02:22:38 <shachaf> imo tuples are just limits of diagrams with no morphisms
02:23:10 <monqy> but he didnt even know what "pointwise" means
02:23:11 <shachaf> oh no is monqy disapproving again
02:23:11 <Bike> [x,y..z] = enumFromThenTo x y z, right?
02:24:17 <Sgeo> Wait, is pointwise just the antonym of pointfree?
02:24:31 <Bike> Can I get a list of instances of a typeclass?
02:24:36 <shachaf> wait should i have specified finite diagrams
02:24:54 <Bike> gosh that's a lot of instances
02:25:02 <Sgeo> um I kind of tuned out of your attempted explanation
02:25:05 <Bike> damn look at all these tuples
02:25:11 <Sgeo> "-- point-wise, and point-free member"
02:25:14 <Sgeo> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Pointfree
02:25:15 <monqy> Sgeo: just read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointwise uuuuuurgh
02:25:25 <monqy> i havent even looked at its contents
02:25:37 <monqy> its better than groping around or whatever the hell youre doingg now
02:25:55 <Bike> if i do :i some class am I going to get a shitload of tuples every time
02:26:05 <shachaf> only for the "common classes"
02:26:17 <Sgeo> So pointwise addition is just addition lifted into the Reader monad?
02:27:05 <Sgeo> I shall take that as a yes
02:27:17 <Bike> aight why is (4,5,6,7) < (9,6,3,0)
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02:28:33 <elliott> Bike: because seven ate nine
02:28:40 <Sgeo> Although, I guess it's somewhat meaningless semantically.... if Ord a => Complex a doesn't get an Ord instance even though one can be defined, why should tuples?
02:28:56 <Bike> What, why would you define an ordering on complex
02:29:04 <Sgeo> Bike, so you can put them in Maps
02:29:25 <elliott> indexing a map by a value with floating point sounds like the superest idea
02:29:38 <Sgeo> Complex Int is not floating point
02:29:56 <Bike> i love gaussian integers
02:30:52 <Bike> Why does Num have Show but not Read?
02:31:18 <elliott> it doesn't have Show or Eq now
02:31:19 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Wait, is pointwise just the antonym of pointfree? <-- i learned about "pointwise" in math long before learning haskell.
02:31:50 <Bike> noooo i'm so out of date
02:32:43 <oerjan> Sgeo: Complex Int is not Num either, alas
02:33:09 <oerjan> all because of pesky abs
02:33:22 <monqy> Num is gross and ugly
02:33:31 <elliott> i cant stop reading pesky abs as meaning the other kind of abs
02:33:50 <oerjan> elliott: just do some workout and get some pesky abs yourself
02:34:50 <monqy> who needs abs, bodies are for losers
02:36:54 <elliott> monqy: r u uploaded into the information super highway cyberspace
02:37:19 <kmc> abs or fabs
02:42:50 <Bike> I'm not sure how a better Num would work really. Maybe you could define something "nicer" if you're really pedantic and make it subsets of complexes but then there go floats.
02:43:08 <monqy> something something abstract algebra
02:43:18 <elliott> abstract algebra is kind of awful with typeclasses
02:43:21 <monqy> learning something from those dang mathematicians
02:43:29 <monqy> elliott: maybe typeclasses could learn a thing or 2
02:43:37 <monqy> something something monoids "not so easy after all"
02:43:39 <elliott> i dont think num is all that bad for haskells constraints
02:43:45 <elliott> though it should get split up a lil
02:45:07 <Bike> monqy: But then you'd have like Field except integers don't form a field except mod something they do and stuff
02:45:23 <monqy> well who said you'd start with fields
02:46:40 <Sgeo> There may be a case to be made that the current typeclass system is just broken
02:46:53 <elliott> how would you make that case exactly
02:47:17 <Bike> plus you'd have like... class Ring etc etc i don't know haskell inverse :: a => Maybe a?
02:47:20 <monqy> demonstrate that they make monoids not easy
02:47:32 <monqy> why would you need inverse in the ring class
02:47:32 <Sgeo> Noting how often it is sometimes useful to implement only some of a functions in a class, and how difficult it is to split off such classes in a backwards compatible manner
02:47:49 <Bike> You don't need it, but I'm sure somebody would want it.
02:48:08 <monqy> make a new class for it then? like Ring a => Field a
02:48:25 <monqy> "skewfield" that's a cute name for the same thing
02:48:27 <Bike> I mean, inverses on rings where not everything has an inverse
02:48:38 <monqy> RingWhereSometimesThingsHaveInverses
02:49:44 <monqy> Bike: clearly tho youd just put a Group constraint on the underlying multiplicative monoid
02:50:08 <monqy> for when sometimes you have inverses uhh
02:50:13 <monqy> i guess idk what youd do
02:50:19 <elliott> i think maybe with constraintkinds and stuff we have enough machinery to do abstract algebra classes properly
02:50:23 <elliott> but i sure wouldnt replace num with it
02:50:52 <monqy> num is kind of heck but i typically ignore it
02:51:00 <Bike> obviously the type system is inadequate if i can't express the type of analytic functions. fix this thanks
02:53:17 <Bike> "I think that's there for historical reasons or something, although in my opinion, it's pretty stupid" btw elliott i've decided my earlier stated dislike of lyah was wrong
02:53:59 <monqy> whats that sentence aboout
02:54:10 <elliott> monqy: That's useful when you want integral and floating point types to work together nicely. For instance, the length function has a type declaration of length :: [a] -> Int instead of having a more general type of (Num b) => length :: [a] -> b. I think that's there for historical reasons or something, although in my opinion, it's pretty stupid.
02:54:21 <elliott> but not wrong enough for me to bother complaining about it
02:54:40 <Bike> Oh, what's wrong about it?
02:55:16 <monqy> something about Integral right
02:55:22 <monqy> :t generalizedLength
02:56:01 <monqy> oh that's length not Take or anything
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02:56:09 <monqy> yeah that's integral
02:56:35 <Bike> > genericLength ["lol","ol","ol"] :: Float
02:57:04 <lambdabot> Source not found. You speak an infinite deal of nothing
02:57:08 <Sgeo> huh, so I don't need a million parens whenever I use :: ?
02:57:09 <elliott> why does it need integral i wonder
02:57:26 <Sgeo> elliott, I hope that's sarcasm?
02:57:31 <monqy> elliott: well maybe it doesnt "need" integral but would it make sense without it
02:57:50 <Sgeo> elliott, how do you take 1.5 of something?
02:58:03 <Bike> interpolation!
02:58:05 <elliott> i dont think you understand what im saying
02:58:13 <elliott> monqy: looks like it doesn't use any Integral methods at all :/
02:58:19 <elliott> don't really like the gratuitous constraint
02:58:22 <monqy> elliott: thats what i mean by "need"
02:58:47 <elliott> just confirming & complaining
02:59:10 <Sgeo> Oh, it would effectively round down
02:59:10 <Bike> > length (take (toInteger (maxBound :: Int) + 1) (repeat "cut"))
02:59:12 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Int'
02:59:27 <elliott> bike take doesnt take an integer
02:59:33 <elliott> drop doesnt drop an integer too 8-)
03:00:19 <Bike> so how do i get the first [pointlessly large number] of elements from a list!
03:00:50 <Bike> not in scope this is impossible f u haskell
03:00:59 <Sgeo> @hoogle genericTake
03:01:00 <lambdabot> Data.List genericTake :: Integral i => i -> [a] -> [a]
03:01:04 <Sgeo> import Data.List
03:02:01 <Bike> wait what the hell is import
03:02:23 <monqy> and think no more about it
03:02:29 <Bike> no i must think
03:02:35 <Bike> it is my curse
03:02:47 <Sgeo> Bike, it imports a module. And :m + Data.List is how to bring in a module at GHCi
03:02:52 <Sgeo> Rather than source code
03:03:08 <Bike> oh import's one of those statement dealies isn't it
03:03:23 <monqy> import is more letters
03:03:36 <Jafet1> import is a top level statement
03:03:42 <Jafet1> You need to be a top level programmer to use it
03:05:02 <kmc> you need at least 3 PhDs
03:05:24 <Bike> What are the PhDs in
03:05:35 <Jafet1> But you do need qualifications to use qualified imports
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03:25:43 <Bike> aw, you need some kind of extension for explicit forall?
03:26:31 <elliott> well you need an extension for everything
03:26:39 <elliott> explicit forall ain't that useful if you're not doing scopedtypevariables stuff
03:26:44 <elliott> i mean ain't useful at all
03:26:46 <elliott> assuming you mean, not rank-2
03:26:50 <elliott> which is a whole other can of worms
03:26:53 <Bike> yeah i just mean the boring ones
03:27:11 <Bike> i just.... i'd feel better with them there man.........
03:28:09 <elliott> the bonus is you can use forall as a variable
03:30:15 <Bike> uh i thought i sucked way to flip-flop
03:30:45 <elliott> how do you know i wasnt using sarcasm either/both times
03:31:10 <Bike> sarcasm is a rank k type hth
03:31:57 <Bike> ooh backquoted quotes in strings print with the backquotes! haskell really is a lisp!!!
03:33:02 <Bike> capital "Porqueepsie" => "The first letter of \"Porqueepsie\" is 'P'."
03:33:21 <Bike> or is that actually just a literal backquote
03:35:39 <oerjan> python only does it if you mix _both_ ' and " in a string. otherwise it chooses the outer one as whichever isn't used.
03:36:08 <oerjan> haskell cannot do that since ' and " have different meanings.
03:40:13 <Sgeo> Isn't there a Haskell program that's valid both with and without rankntypes but does different things with and without:/
03:43:09 <oerjan> i recall zzo38 did some nice option-testing combinations
03:45:36 <oerjan> i think those were based on syntax though, so probably tested whether forall was a keyword
03:46:04 <oerjan> hm i'm not sure whether that worked
03:46:18 <oerjan> `pastequotes zzo38>.*forall
03:46:26 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16517
03:46:28 <oerjan> `pastelogs zzo38>.*forall
03:47:08 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31071
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03:48:45 <Sgeo> is elliott asleep
03:50:00 <lambdabot> Prelude notElem :: Eq a => a -> [a] -> Bool
03:50:51 <Bike> 2011-11-28.txt:06:52:27: <zzo38> explosion :: (p, Not p) -> q; explosion (x, y) = contradiction $ y x; where contradiction :: forall t. Zero -> t;
03:51:01 <oerjan> `pastelogs zzo38>.*rank.types
03:51:15 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.22827
03:51:22 <monqy> Bike: Not a = a -> Void
03:51:31 <monqy> Void aka Zero aka False
03:51:32 <oerjan> monqy: he's been experimenting with logic in haskell types
03:51:47 <Bike> not me that's for sure
03:52:00 <oerjan> `pastelogs zzo38>.*haskell.*extension
03:52:02 <monqy> curry howard is a bit poor in haskell what with everything being inhabited
03:52:14 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.30522
03:52:14 <Bike> also Confession Part Two I thought fmap took a functor as an argument "sorry"
03:52:24 <monqy> bike..................
03:52:39 <elliott> wait im going to do the thing where you use the full version of someones name to disapprove at them
03:52:42 <elliott> bicycle..............................
03:52:49 -!- Bike has changed nick to Bicyclidine.
03:53:19 <elliott> dave -> david -> davidiens
03:53:21 <monqy> im going to do to the thing where i munge someones name(i dont actually do this but some people do): bicyclyde
03:53:23 <elliott> do you really want to be davidiens bike
03:53:35 <elliott> monqy: ooh we could call bike clyde
03:53:45 <monqy> biquaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
03:53:50 <oerjan> Sgeo: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2011-09-02.txt is where it was previously discussed
03:54:19 <Bicyclidine> monqy: does Void not exist in haskell because everything's inhabited or
03:54:40 <shachaf> are tiy oeioke stukk takjubg abiyt types
03:54:51 <shachaf> did my keyboard switch to finnish mode
03:55:19 <monqy> Bicyclidine: theres a thing people call void but it's not as meaningful as in stuff like agda or coq or
03:55:20 <Sgeo> _|_ can be made to be of type Void
03:55:32 <monqy> sgeo are you sure you can explain this
03:55:54 <Bicyclidine> Says I need an extension to allow a lack of constructors.
03:56:10 <Sgeo> Let's pretend that Void is a->b. a->b should be uninhabited, just like Void, right?
03:56:17 <Sgeo> :t undefined :: a -> b
03:56:32 <shachaf> Bicyclidine: did you think that fmap took a functor as an argument………………………………………………………………………………………
03:56:47 <shachaf> sounds like i missed out "on a lot of fun"
03:56:56 <oerjan> Sgeo: alas zzo's sprunge paste has expired
03:57:10 <monqy> Bicyclidine: the way it's defined in the "void" package is
03:57:16 <Bicyclidine> anyway it's just something from when I didn't know what typeclass syntax was and i was grasping at straws
03:57:16 <monqy> -- | A logically uninhabited data type.
03:57:16 <monqy> #if __GLASGOW_HASKELL__ < 700
03:57:16 <monqy> data Void = Void !Void
03:57:16 <monqy> newtype Void = Void Void
03:57:25 <Bicyclidine> elliott: my ghc is from debian, so presumably it's older than me
03:57:52 <monqy> Bicyclidine: so you need a void to construct a void. the ! means it's strict in its argument so it's a bit harder to fit a bottom in there
03:58:13 <elliott> Bicyclidine: ghc --version
03:58:18 <elliott> please do that so i know if i have to take drastic measures
03:58:29 <shachaf> Bicyclidine: after doing it please paste the result in the channel
03:58:43 <elliott> seriously you have no idea
03:59:01 <elliott> you'll probably thank me later
03:59:09 <shachaf> Bicyclidine you might as well be using a rusty spoon to compile your haskell code
03:59:17 <shachaf> it would be more type safe at least
03:59:30 <Sgeo> Bicyclidine, if you want to be able to define data types at GHCi, you'll upgrade
04:00:01 <elliott> thats not really what we meant Bicyclidine
04:00:01 <shachaf> if you want elliott not to "take drastic measures" you'll upgrade
04:00:07 <shachaf> and believe me you don't want elliott to do that
04:00:14 <shachaf> he's never done it before but it sounds bad
04:00:31 <Sgeo> Bicyclidine, I'm on Ubuntu 10.10 and I've managed to upgrade GHC
04:00:52 <shachaf> ghc 6.12 is so old it doesn't support lens.........……..………….....….…….….…..…...
04:01:02 <Bicyclidine> i dunno sgeo .configure && make && make install is hard
04:01:31 <elliott> you dont want to compile ghc
04:01:42 <elliott> probably just use the haskell platform binary package??
04:01:43 <monqy> using debian packages sounds like heck
04:01:43 <shachaf> elliott: The binary package still has configure/make/make install
04:01:51 <elliott> it doesnt have the make part iirc
04:01:57 <Bicyclidine> are you sure because whenever i mention having a compiler that's slightly behind bleeding edge i get jumped on
04:02:01 <shachaf> or at least it doesn't do anything
04:02:14 <monqy> Bicyclidine: HP isn't bleeding edge
04:02:15 <Bicyclidine> gotta keep up with all the new developments
04:02:18 <shachaf> elliott: TWIST: there is no binary package :,(
04:02:23 <Sgeo> 7.6 is bleeding edge
04:02:36 <Sgeo> 7.4 is part of the Haskell Package, the go-to for newbies
04:02:37 <shachaf> remember when people used to say cutting edge
04:02:45 <shachaf> and then that wasn't "cutting edge enough"
04:02:52 <Bicyclidine> well sudo apt-get install haskell-platform is what i did
04:02:57 <Bicyclidine> i'm a simple man with simple lack of savvy
04:02:58 <shachaf> now "bleeding edge" is an idiom instead of a joke :'(
04:03:03 <elliott> Bicyclidine: your compiler is from june 2010
04:03:29 <elliott> the stable version it's of is from 2009
04:05:24 <oerjan> next up: amputated edge
04:05:57 <shachaf> imo the bleeding edge should be "spj's keylogger"
04:06:02 <shachaf> the cutting edge can be HEAD
04:06:15 <elliott> what about the wounded edge
04:06:51 <shachaf> is that "internal to a church"
04:07:02 <monqy> im more interested in this rusty spoon edge
04:07:09 <monqy> if i cut someone with it will they die
04:07:29 <shachaf> yes and Bicyclidinidine would be to blame
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04:26:08 <shachaf> Bicyclidine: did you get it yet
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04:41:54 <elliott> Bicyclidine i need your public service again
04:42:09 -!- Bicyclidine has changed nick to Bike.
04:42:16 <elliott> or to sleep. that one might be better because it works even if it's monqy you're servicing
04:42:21 <Bike> fucking hell elliott isn't it like twelve in the morning where you live
04:42:44 <Bike> uh dude isn't that private
04:42:51 <elliott> im letting you into my world :-)
04:43:16 <shachaf> It's 12 in the morning where *I* live.
04:43:23 <shachaf> By 12 in the morning I mean 23:43.
04:43:31 <shachaf> By live I mean "am alive at right now".
04:43:49 <monqy> it's too early where i live
04:44:07 <monqy> i want to go to sleep
04:44:14 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Thu Mar 7 20:44:13 2013
04:44:40 <shachaf> monqy: you know about type systems right
04:44:48 <shachaf> what does it mean to say rank-2 type inference is possible
04:45:06 <shachaf> everyone says it "even elliott"
04:45:14 <shachaf> but what are the limitations
04:46:22 <monqy> idk off the top of my head what it means "precisely"??
04:46:50 <shachaf> well you can give (\x -> x x) a rank-2 type
04:47:04 <shachaf> does it even make sense to say that
04:49:05 <monqy> well asking if some type of a specific term is "inferrable" loses a bit of sense
04:49:26 <monqy> since the general case can still be undecidible but special cases heuristics yada yada
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04:51:12 <shachaf> well sure but the general case here is supposed to be decidable
04:51:27 <shachaf> so im wondering what that means for specific cases
04:54:55 <monqy> if being decidable means that it's possible to infer a type for every term with a rank 2 type then
04:55:01 <monqy> yes that term would get a type inferred for it??
04:55:29 <shachaf> does it mean it's possible to infer "a most general type"
04:55:41 <shachaf> or just any ol type that fits?? or what
04:56:19 <monqy> the way i stated it it'd just be any ol type that fits....the actual theorem might be for most general types. what i said was just an example of what a theorem statement might look like. you'd have to check for yrself.
04:56:26 <monqy> since i cannot recall
04:56:52 <shachaf> well where would i find the theorem
04:57:03 <shachaf> should i read the paper edwardk linked or something else
04:57:11 <shachaf> i dont know type systems :('
04:57:45 <shachaf> i guess i should just read that paper
04:58:55 <monqy> probably edwardk knows what he's talking about?
05:02:37 <shachaf> monqy: is it true they took summon green rat out of summon small mammals in crawl
05:05:08 <shachaf> orange, that's the one i meant
05:05:52 <shachaf> no i just meant one of them
05:05:57 <monqy> ok then it was orange
05:06:17 <monqy> anyway ye summon small mammals stopped being major ridiculous ages ago
05:08:57 <shachaf> but i liked it when it was major ridiculous
05:09:44 <coppro> or did Sgeo miss an update
05:09:57 <shachaf> coppro: no olist isn't going to be updated until next week
05:10:03 <shachaf> and smlist isn't updated :'(
05:10:27 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ oldpwd=`pwd`; cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric; name=$(cat $(ls ????-??-??.txt | tail -1) | tail -1 | sed "s/[^<]*<//; s/>.*//; s/.*\* //; s/ .*//"); cd $oldpwd; fgrep -q "$name" bin/list || echo -n "$name " >> bin/list; echo cuttlefish boily elliott Taneb HackEgo Sgeo monqy pikhq Sgeo_ tswett Phantom_Hoover nortti oklopol Ngevd
05:10:55 <coppro> shachaf: neither of those
05:11:09 <HackEgo> ? \ @ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ addquote \ allquotes \ anonlog \ aseen \ botsnack \ bseen \ calc \ CaT \ colorize \ define \ delquote \ elist \ emmental \ emoclew \ emptylist \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ fueue \ gaseen \ google \ h \ ?h \ h! \ hatesgeo \ ?hh \ hyfinate \ hyphenate.fi \ interp \ joustreport \ jousturl \ js \ json \ ka
05:11:13 <HackEgo> bin/elist \ bin/emptylist \ bin/list \ bin/lists \ bin/makelist \ bin/mlist \ bin/olist \ bin/pbflist \ bin/slist \ bin/smlist \ bin/testlist
05:11:38 <Bike> Oh, did elliott update?
05:11:57 <shachaf> oh and pbf didn't update either
05:12:00 <coppro> anyway, I will do you all the favor of mentioning that there is a homestuck update before I talk about it
05:12:07 <shachaf> none of the other lists are relevant
05:12:30 <coppro> shachaf: I think you're wrong ;)
05:12:53 <monqy> shachaf: coppro's right; emptylist is pretty dang relevant
05:13:11 <HackEgo> echo 'tail -n +2 $0 | xargs echo; exit 0' >$1;chmod +x $1
05:13:28 <coppro> so is it a universal property of cherubs that they love worldbuilding?
05:13:32 <shachaf> its not even accurate anymore?
05:13:38 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0"): "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit
05:14:13 <shachaf> `run echo 'cp bin/emptylist bin/"$1"' > bin/makelist
05:14:34 <shachaf> `run echo shachaf >> bin/deletedlist
05:15:00 <coppro> can we stop playing with the robot
05:15:33 <shachaf> holmestuck sounds pretty horrible
05:15:38 <coppro> Bike: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/storyfiles/hs2/05958_2.gif
05:15:48 <Bike> that did not answer the question
05:15:49 <shachaf> imo a better thing with the word "stuck" in it is slaughterhouse five
05:16:03 <coppro> Bike: you'll have to read it to find out
05:16:04 <Bike> billy pilgrim has become poo-tee-weet in time
05:16:25 <shachaf> i'm just saying that because i was reading it today
05:16:46 <shachaf> monqy: from now on instead of saying rip you should say so it goes
05:17:20 <coppro> As in. "Oh dear. It appears I have so it went my pants"
05:18:06 <coppro> if instead of saying "rip" you say "so it goes" then instead of saying "ripped" you say "so it went"
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05:26:55 <fungot> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
05:27:45 <monqy> sorry sgeo, coppro beat you to it
05:28:09 <Taneb> It's almost half 5 in the morning
05:28:12 <Taneb> What am I doing up
05:28:57 <monqy> a twin channeling of the spirits of sgeo and elliott
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05:40:34 <phiscribe> ok so like esoteric, sounds like a cool channel, so i idle in here a few days. i still don't know wtf is the point of the channel. somebody explain. i used sit in a channel #sgeo (a chan about sacred geometry). some dude named sgeo poke his head in and is like, wtf is this. so whats the low down here? also for your entertainment here is this:::::
05:40:36 <phiscribe> Field theories of limericks by individual consciousness exists, as could conceivably be considered to the merging of the Gaia mind. Modern field theory of the method of empirical science, in which are not exclusive to think. Thomas (always more clearly described in glowing terms about one wavelength of the claim
05:40:58 <phiscribe> (markov chain generated from the logs of the past few days in here)
05:42:30 <phiscribe> how do abstract algebra classes in the method of programmer-hours have a -> return first versions of compare? 02:13:06: By 12 in and deployment! For more elegant 03:59:28: bitchin' 04:15:22: -!- Fiora nortti oklopol Ngevd 05:10:35: weid 02:56:01: something 02:18:17: `emptylist 05:12:28:
05:42:57 <Taneb> #esoteric is supposed to be about esoteric programming languages, but is really a couple of dozen people being weird
05:43:05 <Bike> thanks oonbotti.
05:43:12 <Bike> Oh sweet it got my "bitchin'" in there.
05:43:15 <Bike> I am immortal.
05:44:18 <phiscribe> ok is COBOL ok for esoteric programming languages, i did that back in the day
05:45:14 <Taneb> I'd look at INTERCAL
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05:45:35 <Taneb> http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/intercal-man/
05:47:16 <phiscribe> yes there was a punch card mashine
05:48:22 <monqy> i've only heard stories about those
05:48:48 <phiscribe> pascal, but that seems too have keep up with the times
05:52:45 <HackEgo> phiscribe: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:53:05 <coppro> there's another kind of esoterica?
05:59:27 <phiscribe> http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd454/vectorbomb/Ninja-Code-Black-T-Shirt-Front.jpg
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07:00:34 <fizzie> `run words # with friends
07:01:03 <fizzie> HackEgo: You're such a schuttack.
07:01:10 <Fiora> words with friends?
07:01:22 <fizzie> I understand it is a game.
07:01:29 <Bike> Fiora: your ##asm antics are pretty great, i hope you know
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08:21:12 <Deewiant> fizzie: Your gravatar image at github is over 3x the size it needs to be. (It could be gravatar's fault, I suppose, if they use poor resizing algorithms or something.)
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10:04:51 <fizzie> Deewiant: I'm pretty sure I didn't make it a 400x400.
10:05:31 <fizzie> What I uploaded is whatever gives single pixels in the dither pattern.
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11:04:52 <Deewiant> fizzie: I just meant that the file size is huge, mostly due to not using a grayscale palette.
11:07:07 <fizzie> I think it was a two-color PNG back when I sent it.
11:09:41 <fizzie> Possibly bad things have happened to it automatically.
11:12:55 <fizzie> Although it's possible bad things have happened to it manually, too. I think I extracted it out of the file I had made for a door placard kind of thing.
11:13:05 <fizzie> The photo is terribly old in any case. I should perhaps produce a new self-picture some day.
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12:57:47 <impomatic> The Museum of Modern Art wants to add Core War to it's video game display http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21661690
12:58:40 <myname> i heard about core war as a child and it sounded awesome
12:58:50 <myname> too bad i didn't know how to do stuff
12:59:03 <myname> today i'd prefer something less assambly
12:59:14 <Jafet1> Was core wars really a thing
12:59:21 * ais523 considers mentioning BF Joust
12:59:24 <Jafet1> It sounds less popular than bfjoust
12:59:27 <ais523> Jafet1: impomatic is pretty good at it
12:59:32 <ais523> it's definitely more popular than BF Joust
12:59:37 <ais523> except among members of this channel
12:59:37 <myname> never heard of bf joust
12:59:40 -!- Jafet1 has changed nick to Jafet.
12:59:47 <ais523> because this channel is the correct channel for discussing BF Joust
12:59:51 <Snowyowl> Is it still a thing, more to the point? It sounds fun, but I can't find anyone seriously talking about it more recently than 2009.
12:59:53 <ais523> myname: http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust
13:00:36 <lambdabot> *** "museum" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
13:00:37 <lambdabot> n 1: a depository for collecting and displaying objects having
13:00:37 <lambdabot> scientific or historical or artistic value
13:00:49 <myname> i'd love something like this for befunge or the like
13:02:30 <myname> it'd be especially interesting because of the p command
13:03:44 <myname> okay, more like core war
13:03:45 <Snowyowl> it could be interesting hunting for the other program in a 2D space
13:04:34 <Snowyowl> maybe the other guy wrote a really tall, but really narrow program :P
13:05:27 <impomatic> Core War is quite active. There's been 178 successful submissions to the main hill so far this year. Even more that didn't enter the hill.
13:06:24 <impomatic> Snowyowl: CoreLife - hunting for the other program in 2D :-) http://corewar.co.uk/corelife
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13:13:20 <Snowyowl> impomatic: do you run corelife?
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13:15:37 <Snowyowl> it seems like a program with no processes would be invincible, because its strength-per-process becomes infinite
13:15:59 <Snowyowl> so if you own 51% of the board, you should kill yourself immediately :P
13:16:06 <Snowyowl> I'm guessing this is completely wrong.
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13:18:16 <ais523> corelife is shareware?
13:18:31 <ais523> it doesn't seem to have a large enough niche to work as shareware
13:18:47 <impomatic> Snowyowl: corewar.co.uk is my site. corelife is nothing to do with me though, other than I have a page about it.
13:18:53 <ais523> especially given that shareware basically doesn't exist nowadays (although it's making something of a revival on mobile platforms)
13:19:49 <impomatic> corelife is playable without registering. If you register I think it adds an option to encrypt your code, but not much else.
13:20:31 <ais523> it adds an option to put authorship information on the coe
13:20:42 <ais523> but shareware = some features unlocked by paying for the product
13:22:13 <Snowyowl> free-to-play is kind of like shareware these days.
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13:29:36 <ais523> myname: BF Joust turned out to be pretty interesting to play, you get people playing it occasionally still
13:29:42 <ais523> when they have an idea for a new strategy
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13:30:06 <myname> ais523: never doubt that
13:30:26 <ais523> we suspect it's inherently broken by something, but nobody's figured out what breaks it yet
13:33:48 <ais523> as in, there's a strategy that beats all other viable strategies
13:36:38 <myname> you suspect there is a best strategy?
13:37:01 <ais523> yes, or a best strategy blend
13:37:37 <Snowyowl> I doubt there's one single strategy that always wins. Any plan has weaknesses.
13:38:08 <Snowyowl> There's almost certainly a best strategy blend, though. Nash equilibriums and all that.
13:40:06 <ais523> except that in BF Joust, there's some cost to actually blending
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13:45:01 <myname> it sounds pretty interesting
13:50:14 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Fri Mar 8 13:50:12 2013
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13:55:08 <mroman_> How do C#/Java propagate/check/implement exceptions?
13:55:31 <mroman_> Putting something in a try clause has severe performance implications.
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14:00:59 <mroman_> usually you would expect that a try block does not have an impact if no exception is thrown
14:01:16 <mroman_> which is what most people on the internet say
14:01:50 <mroman_> however there are measurements where just putting a throw block around some heavy calculation (no throw) stuff already decreases performance
14:02:01 <mroman_> (and if an exception is thrown it get's horribly slow anyways)
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14:05:13 <Sgeo> ^list if no one already did it
14:05:13 <fungot> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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14:16:30 <boily> lambdabot's pong feels a little bit lackluster...
14:19:24 <myname> i do think bf joust would open a whole new branch of strategies if there'd be any kind of equality test that doesn't need to change or at least clear the cell
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14:26:03 <myname> "Poke can be combined with the wiggle clear to produce a deep poke. This strategy was first used in Gregor_furry_furry_strapon_pegging_girls, see its behavior against Deewiant_pendolino for a good example: Trace and animation
14:30:23 <metasepia> Yarly is a village in the Jalilabad Rayon of Azerbaijan.
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14:31:52 <Taneb> Duck Duck Go has its priorities really warped
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14:46:51 <Taneb> > let foo ~True = 3 in foo False
14:46:57 <Taneb> > let foo ~True = 3 in foo undefined
14:47:18 <Taneb> Conclusion: "~True" is useful only for obfuscation
14:47:31 <Taneb> ...and actually could be quite useful for obfuscation
14:47:53 <Taneb> > let foo ~True = 3; foo ~False = sum [1..] in foo True
14:47:55 <lambdabot> mueval-core: UnknownError "GHC returned a result but said: [GhcError {errMs...
14:48:05 <Taneb> > let foo ~True = 3; foo ~False = sum [1..]; in foo False
14:48:07 <lambdabot> mueval-core: UnknownError "GHC returned a result but said: [GhcError {errMs...
14:48:15 <Taneb> > let {foo ~True = 3; foo ~False = sum [1..]} in foo False
14:48:17 <lambdabot> mueval-core: UnknownError "GHC returned a result but said: [GhcError {errMs...
14:48:45 <boily> ~eval foo ~True = 3; foo ~False = sum [1..] in foo True
14:48:45 <metasepia> Error (1): <hint>:1:12: parse error on input `='
14:48:54 <boily> ~eval let foo ~True = 3; foo ~False = sum [1..] in foo True
14:48:54 <metasepia> Error (1): Ambiguous occurrence `sum'
14:48:55 <metasepia> It could refer to either `Data.List.sum',
14:48:55 <metasepia> imported from `Data.List' at Imports.hs:16:1-16
14:48:55 <metasepia> imported from `Data.Foldable' at Imports.hs:13:1-20
14:49:08 <boily> ~eval let foo ~True = 3; foo ~False = Data.List.sum [1..] in foo True
14:49:21 <boily> as useful as ever...
14:50:24 <Taneb> Hey, Serenity's on TV tonight
14:51:24 <HackEgo> Taneb: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:52:04 <metasepia> CYUL 081400Z 02011KT 15SM FEW025 SCT180 BKN240 M01/M06 A3032 RMK SC1AC2CS4 SLP270
14:53:59 <Snowyowl> I don't know how you read that. It looks like line noise to me.
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15:02:40 <Sgeo> http://www.theonion.com/articles/half-of-26yearolds-memories-nintendorelated,2361/
15:12:06 <shachaf> @ask elliott Can you /nick Guest79759 and back to elliott, to unmessup my /query window?
15:12:14 <shachaf> Alternatively, someone in here tell me how to do that in irssi.
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15:12:36 <ion> What’s wrong with the window?
15:12:55 <shachaf> Well, my /query elliott window says it's to Guest79759
15:13:06 <ion> Close it and create a new one.
15:13:15 <shachaf> But then the scrollback will disappear.
15:13:29 <shachaf> (Note: I don't keep logs. I rely on the scrollback.)
15:13:55 <ion> There’s a script for irssi that restores it from the logs, i think. IIRC think weechat does that natively. So, simply start logging and get something with that functionality.
15:14:09 <shachaf> No, I refuse to start logging.
15:14:49 <ion> I heard your brain has been logging IRC.
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16:22:45 <cookienugget> you know when it snows and somebody shouts "snow! y'all!"
16:22:50 <quintopia> well you seemed to think we should know when you proclaimed "i'm back biptches[sic]"
16:24:30 <Snowyowl> Not really. I'd dropped offline for 5 or so minutes and the conversation was a little slow.
16:31:41 <boily> the conversation, you musn't meddle with it. especially on fridays, where it may explode in ludicrous gibs.
16:32:25 <Snowyowl> i will meddle with whatever I see fit
16:32:46 <Snowyowl> conversations, computer systems, the fabric of reality, my dinner, etc.
16:33:42 * boily taps a plain and enchants the conversation with a flickering ward.
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17:06:21 <Taneb> The Illusionist is a good film
17:12:09 <Taneb> I am glad we are in agreement
17:12:38 <Taneb> Unless you're talking about the 2010 animated film, which I lack an opinion on due to not having seen it
17:13:14 <AnotherTest> I'm not. I'm talking about the one where the main character eventually starts with spirit illusions.
17:13:39 <AnotherTest> And where the whole story turns out to be an illusion, to trick the bad guys
17:13:51 <AnotherTest> well, bad guys, that depends on the point of view of course
17:14:57 <Taneb> That is what I am talking about
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17:28:39 <coppro> why is vim syntax highlighting nondeterministic
17:35:13 <ais523> emacs syntax highlighting is also nondeterministic because it tries to do it lazily
17:37:12 <Sgeo> http://www.news.com.au/technology/patient-has-75-per-cent-of-his-skull-replaced-by-3dd-printed-implant/story-e6frfro0-1226593075470
17:40:16 <Gregor> Cool cats have 100% of their skull replaced.
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17:50:48 <FreeFull> http://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/people/jeremy.gibbons/publications/rationals.pdf I like this
17:51:29 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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17:53:14 <FreeFull> It's about generating an infinite list of all the rationals, with no repeat values
17:53:50 <Bike> that doesn't seem very hard?
17:54:07 <elliott> it's a functional pearl, they're not about hard things
17:54:22 <elliott> it's about the journey, not the destination
17:56:27 <AnotherTest> If we take that out of it's context... is it then a great truth?
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18:08:13 <audioPhil> anybody here that knows how to read and write "Maze"?
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18:10:44 <lambdabot> Graphics.Rendering.OpenGL.GL.VertexArrays data InterleavedArrays
18:10:44 <lambdabot> Graphics.Rendering.OpenGL.GL.VertexArrays interleavedArrays :: InterleavedArrays -> Stride -> Ptr a -> IO ()
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18:23:12 <zzo38> In some other IRC I connected, I found a "Logon session Fortune Cookie" which appears as a second MOTD. Would having two MOTD at once ever cause problem in any cases?
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18:44:03 <tswett> `run sed -i 's/tswett //' bin/list
18:44:17 -!- daniela_12alejan has left.
18:44:30 <tswett> `run grep tswett bin/list | wc
18:45:32 <tswett> `run grep HackEgo bin/list | wc
18:47:07 <HackEgo> cuttlefish boily elliott Taneb HackEgo Sgeo monqy pikhq Sgeo_ Phantom_Hoover nortti oklopol Ngevd
18:47:25 <HackEgo> cuttlefish boily elliott Taneb HackEgo Sgeo monqy pikhq Sgeo_ Phantom_Hoover nortti oklopol Ngevd
18:47:33 <HackEgo> cuttlefish boily elliott Taneb HackEgo Sgeo monqy pikhq Sgeo_ Phantom_Hoover nortti oklopol Ngevd metasepia
18:47:46 <boily> `rung sed -i 's/cuttlefish //' bin/list
18:47:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rung: not found
18:47:52 <boily> `run sed -i 's/cuttlefish //' bin/list
18:48:26 <elliott> are you going to deprive cuttlefish of updates to the list?
18:49:00 <boily> I could recuttle the list, even if the bot is no more.
18:49:28 <boily> `run sed -i 's/^/cuttlefish /' bin/list
18:49:29 <oklopol> could you PLEASE stop highlighting me, i hear it's really annoying!!
18:50:19 <tswett> `run sed -i 's/ok..pol //' bin/list
18:50:27 <boily> hmm... we could morse core øklopol by hiliting him with multiple bots.
18:50:45 <tswett> `run grep -e 'ok..pol' bin/list | wc
18:51:13 <elliott> easiest just to restore it
18:51:20 <elliott> since there's a lot of sh gunk before the names
18:51:37 <boily> ah, yeah. silly me.
18:51:56 <tswett> `run sed -i 's/ok..pol //' bin/list
18:52:42 -!- audioPhil has left.
18:53:09 <elliott> `run echo echo >bin/list # optimisation
18:53:53 <boily> `list isn't list anymore!
18:54:55 <boily> you vile unlister!
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19:02:39 <elliott> hm, could instead do it in a stateless way, like:
19:03:03 <elliott> `fetch http://sprunge.us/hjCT
19:03:07 <HackEgo> 2013-03-08 19:03:05 URL:http://sprunge.us/hjCT [142] -> "hjCT" [1]
19:03:09 <elliott> `run mv hjCT bin/list; chmod +x bin/list
19:03:15 <elliott> though that will break in 2020.
19:03:31 <elliott> maybe less elegant since it doesn't quite do the same as ais523's version.
19:03:54 <boily> in 2020, the world will have ended.
19:08:46 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Quit: Bye).
19:08:57 <HackEgo> ais523 Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot metasepia monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo Taneb
19:09:07 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
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19:09:28 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that there will be false positives: Anyone who used `list back when it was Homestuck related
19:09:40 <Bike> ?? when did i get on the list
19:09:49 <Bike> this is bullshit and thank you for concurring
19:09:52 <Sgeo> Bike, it's a new list
19:10:02 <Bike> So why am I on it!
19:10:06 <Sgeo> Everyone who has ever said `list
19:10:12 <Bike> But I haven't...
19:10:14 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
19:10:23 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/list
19:10:51 <Sgeo> I think I can make impersonations
19:11:25 <Sgeo> foobarbaz> `list
19:11:28 <HackEgo> ais523 Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot metasepia monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo Taneb
19:12:00 <Sgeo> Isn't * usually greedy?
19:12:14 <Bike> in regexes? yeah
19:12:18 <boily> no, he has reformed his ways.
19:12:32 <Sgeo> So why didn't my thing wo.. oh
19:12:34 <Fiora> everyone keeps pinging me :<
19:12:46 <Bike> now you see the true horror of the list, fiora
19:13:46 -!- SUPREME_BUTT_SUI has joined.
19:13:46 <boily> the list is not horrorful, it is wonderful, awesome, causes rejuvenescence and will slice your pineapples! (oh, and the obligatory Fiora-ping)
19:13:53 <Bike> the true terror
19:13:54 <HackEgo> ais523 Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot metasepia monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
19:14:03 <Bike> Sgeo: nice choice
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19:14:25 <Bike> though i must admonish you for destroying the purity of the list
19:14:57 <Bike> ...oh, the new list is kind of a thing, huh.
19:15:08 <Bike> What's the command to search the logs with a regex again?
19:15:13 <tswett> Short for "sui generis"?
19:15:22 <tswett> So, like, "supreme butt of its own kind"?
19:16:44 <Sgeo> foobarbaz is not really a creative name
19:16:49 <Bike> I meant SUPREME BUTT SUI.
19:17:12 <Sgeo> I did not choose that name. I do not know who SUPREME BUTT SUI is
19:17:18 <Sgeo> But it isn't me.
19:18:36 <zzo38> With Curry-Howard, when the logic is classical logic, it is with continuations; but what is it when the logic has numbers in it?
19:19:13 <Bike> can't you just embed numbers in classical logic
19:19:50 -!- monqy has joined.
19:20:42 <tswett> zzo38: can you give an example of logic that has numbers in it?
19:20:53 <Sgeo> Hi monqy. There's a new list.
19:21:27 <zzo38> tswett: Something like Typographical Number Theory, I guess
19:21:38 <HackEgo> bin/elist \ bin/emptylist \ bin/list \ bin/makelist \ bin/mlist \ bin/olist \ bin/pbflist \ bin/slist \ bin/smlist \ bin/testlist
19:21:56 <tswett> bin/listofpeoplewhowishtobenotifiedwheneverhomestuckupdates
19:22:23 * tswett ponders TNT under the CHI.
19:22:28 <Gregor> tswett: Yes, that matches the glob *list
19:22:39 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: eslis: not found
19:22:47 <tswett> bin/updateshomestuckwhenevernotifiedbetowishwhopeopleoflist
19:22:54 <HackEgo> smlist: shachaf monqy elliott
19:22:54 <Bike> elliott's updating faster these days
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19:24:19 <HackEgo> \ *OS command line*:-1: No such file or directory \ >>>WORDS<<< \ Backtrace: \ $40E25F40 throw \ $40E23030 required \ $40E2A750 execute \ $40032BD0 \ $40037A00 \ $4002E000 \ $40028FE0 \ $40E2A720 \ $40E217C8 catch \ $40E22FD0 execute-parsing-wrapper \ $40E23090 os-execute-parsing \ $40E23668 args-required
19:24:31 <tswett> `run echo WORDS | gforth -
19:24:34 <HackEgo> Unknown option: - \ Gforth 0.7.0, Copyright (C) 1995-2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ Gforth comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; for details type `license' \ Type `bye' to exit \ WORDS \ mov-regv-Iv mov-reg8-Ib xchg-ax jcc-short conditions pop-reg push-reg \ set-add-likes set-add-like set-noarg rAX,Iz AL,Ib Gv,Ev Gb,Eb Ev,Gv \ Eb,Gb Iv Jz Iz
19:24:46 <boily> `run echo DUP | gforth
19:24:49 <HackEgo> Gforth 0.7.0, Copyright (C) 1995-2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ Gforth comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; for details type `license' \ Type `bye' to exit \ \ :1: Stack underflow \ >>>DUP<<< \ Backtrace:DUP
19:24:59 <tswett> `run echo WORDS | gforth
19:25:03 <HackEgo> Gforth 0.7.0, Copyright (C) 1995-2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ Gforth comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; for details type `license' \ Type `bye' to exit \ WORDS \ mov-regv-Iv mov-reg8-Ib xchg-ax jcc-short conditions pop-reg push-reg \ set-add-likes set-add-like set-noarg rAX,Iz AL,Ib Gv,Ev Gb,Eb Ev,Gv \ Eb,Gb Iv Jz Iz immz Jb Ib Ev Ed Eb
19:25:14 <tswett> What the fuck kind of words are those?
19:26:04 <Gregor> Words that aren't so mean and nasty as the eff word.
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19:26:18 <tswett> What the mov-regv-lv kindn of words are those?
19:26:30 <tswett> What the rAX,lz kind of words are those?
19:26:34 <tswett> I dunno, I think I disagree.
19:26:36 <Gregor> `run echo WORDS | gforth | paste
19:26:47 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27233
19:26:47 <tswett> The word "fuck" is all cute and dainty.
19:26:49 -!- Taneb has changed nick to atriq.
19:26:55 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot metasepia monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
19:26:56 <tswett> "rAX,lz" is clearly a harsh evil alien word.
19:27:01 <Gregor> That's a lot o' words.
19:27:04 -!- atriq has changed nick to Taneb.
19:27:14 <tswett> I think it has too many words.
19:27:38 <Gregor> tswett: It's GNU, whaddya expect?
19:27:45 <boily> ~echo shachaf `list
19:27:57 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, that is correct
19:27:59 <boily> there, two shachafy list-hits.
19:28:07 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot metasepia monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
19:28:12 <tswett> `run echo FORGET (listlfind) WORDS | gforth | paste
19:28:14 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ bash: -c: line 0: `echo FORGET (listlfind) WORDS | gforth | paste'
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19:28:39 <Sgeo> Can the log be fooled with a literal new... probably not
19:28:45 <tswett> `run echo 'FORGET (listlfind) WORDS' | gforth | paste
19:28:54 <Sgeo> Used to be possible to fool people in Active Worlds by using a newline
19:28:56 <HackEgo> \ :1: Undefined word \ >>>FORGET<<< (listlfind) WORDS \ Backtrace: \ $40E1AA68 throw \ $40E30CE0 no.extensions \ $40E1AD28 interpreter-notfound1 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12928
19:29:00 <tswett> I don't think literal newlines are allowed in IRC.
19:29:39 <Taneb> @tell elliott Avoid Riding Mill Methodist Church next Friday evening.
19:30:34 <boily> tswett: Gly-Ala-Ser-Ser-Pro-Ser-Pro-Ser-Pro-Ser-Ser?
19:30:37 <elliott> Taneb: wow you know riding mill exists?
19:30:38 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:30:49 <tswett> boily: yeah, definitely.
19:30:58 <Taneb> elliott, some of my best friends live in Riding Mill!
19:31:14 <Taneb> One person I know was planning on moving there but her family changed their mind
19:31:26 <tswett> Gregor: this isn't a *real* FORTH!
19:31:38 <Taneb> But yeah, I'm going to be attending a play in Riding Mill in ALMOST PRECISELY ONE WEEK'S TIME
19:32:23 <Gregor> tswett: Your mom isn't a real Forth, but we still let her... yeah, Idonno how to finish that.
19:33:34 <Taneb> And I don't want the universe to explode
19:33:47 <Bike> Maybe some kind of pun on being stacked
19:35:24 <metasepia> friends definition: one attached to another by affection or esteem.
19:35:43 <Taneb> elliott, now you know
19:35:56 <Taneb> Perhaps I count as a friend to you
19:36:03 <metasepia> nephew definition: a son of one's brother or sister or of one's brother-in-law or sister-in-law.
19:36:12 <metasepia> aardwolf definition: a maned striped nocturnal mammal ('''Proteles cristatus''') of southern and eastern Africa that resembles the related hyenas and feeds chiefly on insects and especially termites.
19:36:20 <tswett> So, speaking of nephews.
19:36:37 <Taneb> tswett, I'm not elliott's uncle.
19:36:49 <tswett> elliott is now capable of saying a few words.
19:37:04 <tswett> The other day, he suddenly started excitedly saying, "No! No! No!"
19:37:14 * boily is completely subjugated, fulgurated, shocked, and surprised.
19:37:15 <tswett> It took me a while to realize he was referring to the snow outside.
19:37:21 <metasepia> fulgurate definition: the act or process of flashing like lightning.
19:37:30 <Bike> ~duck amphichiral
19:37:30 <metasepia> Of or relating to the structural characteristic of a molecule that makes it impossible to superimpose it on its mirror image.
19:37:35 <Taneb> tswett, is this... the same elliott?
19:37:48 <tswett> elliott is two and a half years old now.
19:37:57 <Taneb> Because our elliott lives in Hexham and there hasn't been any snow here for a couple of weeks
19:38:14 <tswett> We pulled up YouTube on an iPad and let him use it himself.
19:38:29 <tswett> It's pretty cool how he was capable of selecting his own videos and telling them to play.
19:38:33 <Bike> no! no! no! brainfuck derivatives!
19:38:36 <Bike> obviously the same elliott
19:38:40 <tswett> But he only watched each video for about ten seconds before moving on to the next one.
19:38:50 <metasepia> EGNT 081920Z 08009KT 3500 -RA BR BKN003 03/03 Q1005
19:39:00 <Bike> numbers station bot??
19:39:10 <boily> it's raining in newcastle, therefore the elliotts are distinct.
19:39:24 <boily> Bike: no, only weather info. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/METAR
19:39:29 <tswett> boily's Newcastle Theorem.
19:40:08 <Taneb> `addquote <boily> it's raining in newcastle, therefore the elliotts are distinct. <tswett> boily's Newcastle Theorem.
19:40:09 <boily> it's be nifty for my bot to numbers station :D
19:40:16 <HackEgo> 981) <boily> it's raining in newcastle, therefore the elliotts are distinct. <tswett> boily's Newcastle Theorem.
19:40:22 <metasepia> KGRR 081853Z 22005KT 10SM CLR 03/M07 A3044 RMK AO2 SLP319 T00331067
19:40:40 <tswett> Ooh, KGRR's is longer.
19:40:51 <elliott> thats at least seventy more spaces than necessary Taneb
19:41:18 <Taneb> boily, can you add a utility to convert IATA to ICAO?
19:42:35 <tswett> So, let's see. That's the 8th of the month at 18:53 Zulu time, or 1:53 PM local time.
19:44:03 <tswett> The temperature is 3 degrees Celsius and the frost point is -7 degrees Celsius.
19:44:22 <tswett> Or, in the common tongue, 37 F and 19 F.
19:44:38 <Taneb> Ugh... Fahrenheit...
19:45:26 * boily merrily swats tswett with a minimalist design, german engineered flexible and shiny SI thermometer
19:47:09 <tswett> Wind at 5 knots from 220 degrees.
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19:51:13 <boily> neat, KGRR has detailed temperature infos. it is 3.3 °C, with dew point at -6.7 °C.
19:51:24 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
19:51:28 <tswett> Visibility is 10 miles. The altimeter setting is 30.44 inches mercury. There's an automated precipitation sensor. The pressure at sea level is... 1031.9 hectopascals?
19:51:42 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
19:51:53 <boily> yep. once again weird pressure units!
19:52:13 <tswett> boily: presumably calculated from values rounded to the nearest degree Fahrenheit.
19:54:25 -!- AnotherTest has left.
19:55:48 <boily> tswett: probably. occult and subversive unitary heresy.
19:58:58 <tswett> I wonder what the purpose of METAR is, anyway.
19:59:49 <boily> pilots, mainly. otherwise for geeking out at a precise and frequent source of numeric data.
20:02:02 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:03:12 -!- oerjan has set topic: <Taneb> #esoteric is supposed to be about esoteric programming languages, but is really a couple of dozen people being weird | Newsflash: every single letter is 'U' | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:03:38 <oerjan> no one can complain about misleading topic now. Uu uuuu?
20:04:41 <boily> I thought this channel was about esoteric language spotting. ggg ggg G!
20:05:07 <tswett> U uuuuu U uuuuuuuu uuuu uuu uuuuu.
20:05:31 <tswett> Uuuuu uuuuuuuuuu uuuuu uuuuuuu uuuu uuu uuu U. Uuu uuuuuuu, "u".
20:05:55 <tswett> Uuuuuu, uuuuuuu'u uuuuuuuu? U uuuu uuuuu uuu uuuu uuuu.
20:06:13 <tswett> Uuuuuu uuuu Uuuuuuuu, uu uuuuuuu Uuuu'u uuuuuu.
20:06:38 <tswett> oerjan: U uuu'u uuuuuu uuuuuuuuuu uuuu uuu'uu uuuuuu.
20:06:57 <tswett> Uuuuuuu uu uuuuuu uuuu uuuuuuuuu uuu uuuuuuu uuuu "u".
20:07:22 <oerjan> (btw that wasn't the part i changed)
20:12:23 -!- nooga has joined.
20:14:23 <HackEgo> Uuuuuuu uu uuu uuuuuuuuuuuuu uuu uuu uuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuu uuuuuu uuu uuuuuuuuuu! Uuu uuuu uuuuuuuuuuu, uuuuu uuu uuu uuuu: uuuu://uuuuuuuu.uuu/uuuu/Uuuu_Uuuu. (Uuu uuu uuuuu uuuu uu uuuuuuuuu, uuu #uuuuuuuu uu uuu.uuu.uuu.)
20:15:56 <oerjan> i am sure i added that.
20:16:12 <oerjan> i guess fizzie didn't save though
20:16:59 <oerjan> or maybe someone else added it
20:17:38 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:17:52 <oerjan> ^def ping ul (That Pong alone can't stop!)S
20:18:12 <fungot> oerjan: the essence of scheme's interactivity. in case you really want speed, develop in whatever and then added " so that someone can clean?
20:18:15 <HackEgo> fungot cannot be stopped by that sword alone.
20:18:20 -!- phiscribe has left ("Ex-Chat").
20:18:23 <oerjan> ^def ping ul (That Pong alone cannot stop!)S
20:19:07 <oerjan> fizzie: _now_ you can save hth
20:23:46 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
20:29:12 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover..............................................
20:29:20 <shachaf> Don't false-alarm-update `smlist
20:31:16 <boily> random late Friday afternoon question: has anyone here dabbled with bitcoins?
20:31:30 <tswett> I dabbled with bitcoins once.
20:32:21 <tswett> `echo waffle waffle waffle
20:32:47 <impomatic> I ran the program for about 15 minutes then got bored :-)
20:33:03 <boily> I was wondering: is it possible for bitcoins to disappear and volatilize themselves? like, there's a bug in a transaction, and the amount doesn't exist anymore?
20:33:25 <tswett> Sure enough, if I'm connected to a server through a VPN, and I turn off the VPN, the connection stops working.
20:33:53 -!- atriq has joined.
20:34:04 -!- Taneb has quit (Disconnected by services).
20:34:08 -!- atriq has changed nick to Taneb.
20:34:25 <Taneb> Good advice: if you write a forkbomb, don't test it on your primary computer
20:38:16 <boily> impomatic: I'm going to.
20:38:34 <boily> Taneb: not testing bombs on your main machine is for wimps.
20:39:43 <Taneb> fix(forever.forkIO)
20:40:44 <boily> is elliott still there?
20:41:16 <HackEgo> 981) <boily> it's raining in newcastle, therefore the elliotts are distinct. <tswett> boily's Newcastle Theorem.
20:41:36 <oerjan> `run sed -i '981s/ / /' quotes
20:41:46 <HackEgo> 981) <boily> it's raining in newcastle, therefore the elliotts are distinct. <tswett> boily's Newcastle Theorem.
20:42:26 <Taneb> Trivia: I typed them out manually rather than copy-pasting
20:42:37 <myname> why did you write a fork bomb in the first place?
20:42:48 <Taneb> myname, to see how hard it'd be in Haskell
20:43:11 <Taneb> > length "fix$forever.forkIO
20:43:13 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at end of input
20:43:15 <Taneb> > length "fix$forever.forkIO"
20:43:46 <Taneb> The actual program is 18 characters, however inputs et al. bring it up a tad
20:44:17 <Taneb> > length "import Control.Concurrent;import Control.Monad;import Data.Function;main=fix$forever.forkIO"
20:44:54 <Gregor> Haskell: Not good for Twitter-sized programs.
20:44:58 <Bike> What's the trivalent logic operator such that foo True = True; foo _ = Unknown?
20:45:35 <Taneb> Gregor, if I wanted Twitter-sized programs, I'd seriously rethink my life
20:48:51 * impomatic wonders if it's possible to write a bf interpreter in a tweet
20:49:27 <Bike> relative to what machine??
20:49:41 <elliott> impomatic: http://j.mearie.org/post/1181041789/brainfuck-interpreter-in-2-lines-of-c
20:50:17 <Bike> the golf it burns
20:53:23 <myname> a bit explaination would be nice
20:53:29 <zzo38> I want to make programs that fit in a QR-code
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20:53:53 <myname> zzo38: android virusses?
20:54:59 <Bike> myname: did you scroll down
20:56:10 <zzo38> I think someone might have made a QR-code encoding the PNG file of itself
20:56:11 <boily> zzo38: https://chart.googleapis.com/chart?cht=qr&chs=350x350&chld=L&choe=UTF-8&chl=%23include+%3Cstdio.h%3E%0Aint+main(void)%7Bprintf(%22Hello%2C+world!%5Cn%22)%3Breturn+0%3B%7D%0A
20:56:34 <ion> zzo38: That would be cool.
20:56:41 <boily> but, usually in those cases, the code is Scheme or a variant thereof.
20:56:49 <Taneb> I saw someone who made a zip file that contained itself
20:56:56 <boily> (I need to find that project with flashy flowers and an arduino derivative...)
20:57:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:57:31 <zzo38> I know that BASIC programs for the Nintendo 3DS are stored in QR-codes, although you normally need several.
20:57:32 <boily> Taneb: http://research.swtch.com/zip
20:57:35 <Bike> zip file of length N that expands to a zip file of length N+1 that expands to a zip file of...
21:00:27 <zzo38> I really think "select-encode" and "select-decode" instruction of a CPU really would be useful in many cases, so I want to learn how to program it into a Verilog code of an existing CPU core.
21:01:51 <nooodl> now i'm wondering. what's the shortest bf interpreter out there, regardless of language
21:02:04 <zzo38> I also think they would be useful in C to make ~< and ~> operators, really, I do things that I want such operators, a lot
21:02:15 <monqy> nooodl: i made a language where every program is a bf interpreter
21:02:20 <monqy> nooodl: checkmate???
21:02:36 <myname> nooodl: waiting for HQ9+BF?
21:02:56 <Bike> nooodl: "regardless of language" means you can just define a language etc etc monqy
21:03:03 <nooodl> that's like the most tired esoteric programming language """"joke""""" ever
21:03:28 <nooodl> the answer is: yes, you could do this, but i'm going to punch you in the face
21:03:46 <Bike> turing relativity isn't a joke it's the basis of life!
21:04:01 <Bike> or kolmogorov relativity would be a better name i guess, w/e
21:04:55 <monqy> thingy thingy something about the question being wack
21:05:06 <Bike> straight up wack
21:05:28 <metasepia> quack definition: to make the characteristic cry of a duck.
21:06:47 <monqy> there are languages that take as input a thing and its output goes through a brainfuck implementation. cat is a brainfuck interpreter. thank you tehz.
21:09:46 <boily> tswett: the official FAQ about bitcoins confirm my fear: a spurrious electronic mishap can destroy forever bitcoins.
21:09:47 <nooodl> who's tehz why're we thanking them
21:10:10 <myname> boily: losing your wallet can, too
21:10:21 <monqy> nooodl: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:TehZ
21:11:28 <nooodl> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainbrain oh
21:11:34 <monqy> nooodl: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/TehZ
21:11:40 <Sgeo_> "Unparseable is a language designed to be hard (maybe impossible?) to parse. It is context-sensitive, it REQUIRES you to mix the parser and the interpreter, and it allows you to redefine commands while the program is running."
21:11:52 <monqy> just look at enough of what tehz's done and you'll understand why thanking him is a funny joke :-)
21:11:54 <Bike> ℒ feels weirdly dual to this.
21:12:44 <nooodl> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Postfix_notation thanks tehz
21:13:15 <Bike> surround notation is pretty :-)
21:13:15 <Sgeo_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Unparseable suddenly I have no desire to make an interpreted Trustfuck
21:13:16 <monqy> nooodl: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Surround_notation
21:13:43 <nooodl> the wikipedia link to the linguistics page :')
21:13:50 <boily> surround. notation. wtf.
21:13:55 <Sgeo_> Unless... you write an interpreter, and it becomes a compiler by magic
21:14:00 <boily> quintopia: I am unduckable.
21:14:16 <monqy> nooodl: tehz is also 'infamous' for http://esolangs.org/wiki/Meta_Turing-complete
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21:21:55 <tswett> This "Unparseable" language looks vaguely defined.
21:22:40 <tswett> It says that the & command modifies the program. It implies that the & command does this before being executed.
21:22:42 <Bike> to be fair, so is perl
21:23:01 <tswett> Which implies that Unparseable has separate compile-time and run-time semantics.
21:23:55 <tswett> It also implies that the = command works at compile-time, not at run-time.
21:24:10 <hagb4rd> woa.. check this out http://thecarpandtheseagull.thecreatorsproject.com/
21:25:04 <tswett> It's not currently clear whether / works at compile-time or run-time.
21:25:36 <tswett> In any case, both / and = only apply to the commands following them.
21:26:11 <Sgeo_> tswett, what do you think of Trustfuck?
21:26:45 <tswett> Hm. In addition to implying that = works at compile-time, it strongly implies that it works at run-time.
21:27:12 <tswett> So yeah, the Unparseable spec is just self-contradictory.
21:27:15 <tswett> Sgeo_: I'm not familiar with it.
21:27:32 <Sgeo_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Trustfuck
21:28:36 <quintopia> my browser doesn't support opengl, dawg
21:30:23 <nooodl> perhaps the most confusing thing about trustfuck is... why would you make EOF -1
21:30:58 <Sgeo_> nooodl, specifying EOF makes it easier to write compilers that read _all_ input, not just input cut off by NUL
21:31:13 <tswett> Hm. I need to come up with an interesting esolang.
21:31:19 <tswett> I'll think about it over the next however long.
21:31:27 <Sgeo_> The interesting thing is what a compiled in ! does
21:31:40 <Sgeo_> Suppose you make a compiler for a similar language except all the commands are shifted
21:31:53 <Sgeo_> Then, the shifted ! will accept the shifted commands as the primitives
21:32:01 <boily> this sounds strangely malbolgey.
21:33:11 <nooodl> i don't really get trustfuck at all
21:33:28 <nooodl> "It is intended to be compiled, and the compiler, written in Trustfuck,"
21:33:38 <nooodl> the compiler *must* be written in trustfuck?
21:35:02 <Sgeo_> There's a Haskell implementation, but conceptually it is the compiled form of the Trustfuck code
21:35:36 <Sgeo_> It actually literally includes ",+[-:,+]!"
21:37:13 <oerjan> nooodl: there's an implicit "which is" before "written"
21:37:27 <nooodl> hmm let me try to make an implementation in python
21:38:05 <nooodl> i don't have brains so i can't read the haskell code
21:38:17 <Sgeo_> I can describe how the Haskell works if that helps
21:38:18 <nooodl> but i don't really get why you need the whole primSource string
21:38:36 <nooodl> oh, to compile the code into haskell i guess
21:39:03 <Sgeo_> It's effectively an almost-quine
21:40:17 <Sgeo_> Much of the body of the code acts as an interpreter for primitives.
21:40:31 <myname> could someone explain why underload puts stuff with parentheses on the stack?
21:41:20 <oerjan> myname: because that's the main way of getting a constant program onto the stack
21:41:39 <Sgeo_> With one constant holding the compiled-into-primitives code that represents the program that is currently running.
21:41:53 <oerjan> also the only command which can work if the stack is empty to start with
21:42:14 <Sgeo_> That is, when I compile X into primitives, I emit what is effectively interpreter+prims to interpret
21:42:24 <myname> i do understand why he uses (...) to put stuff on the stack
21:42:25 <oerjan> myname: or do you mean something else?
21:42:37 <Sgeo_> When I compile, I also push myself onto the compilerStack that will be emitted
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21:42:49 <myname> what i don't get is why it doesn't just put the stuff without the parantheses on the stack
21:43:13 <Sgeo_> That is, after having run the code block through the compiler stack. The compiler stack also consists of, effectively, lists of primitives
21:43:26 <Taneb> myname, that's just how the specific implementation you're looking at workds
21:43:32 <Sgeo_> So, I run the code block as input to the most recent, then that through second-most-recent, etc.
21:43:53 <Sgeo_> Well, wait, that's not accurate.
21:44:07 <oerjan> myname: oh. that's just the notation for stacks which i invented... doing it that way means you can just put the stack in front of the program without separating them. that is very useful for when you think of underload as a concatenative language, but ais523 (the language inventor) found it weird too
21:44:18 <Sgeo_> I run the code block as input to the top of the compiler stack, and while that is running, the compiler stack is conceptually popped
21:44:34 <oerjan> he used to have the stack without parentheses
21:44:35 <Sgeo_> So when the top compiler calls compile, the next program on the compiler stack starts running
21:45:16 <oerjan> myname: i wish people could just trust me that it works much better thinking about the language that way :(
21:45:18 <Sgeo_> When compile is called while compiler stack is empty, that's when the Haskell program + new compilerStack and program is emitted
21:45:29 <Sgeo_> nooodl, is this making any sense?
21:45:42 <nooodl> it soudns like it's a lot easier to do in an imperative language
21:46:09 <oerjan> myname: and without it we'd need some other notation to separate stack elements
21:46:10 <nooodl> well, it's the same really
21:46:35 <Sgeo_> I can't _really_ change the compiler stack. What if a program wants to do something weird like call compile twice?
21:46:41 <nooodl> just, more work has already been done for you? because you can translate brainfuck code into simple statements like "while t[p]:" instead of having to write a whole interpreter yourself
21:48:16 <Sgeo_> Remember, you have a stack of compilers that you have to run. So you'd have to call portions of that generated imperative code.
21:48:30 <Sgeo_> Maybe c0 c1 c2 etc? And functions ... hm
21:48:46 <Sgeo_> functions s0 s1 s2 and s2 may end up running s1 which runs s0?
21:49:05 <nooodl> i don't get the compiler stack thin
21:49:15 <nooodl> i think i'm about to find out the hard way
21:49:32 <Sgeo_> Suppose I write, in Trustfuck, a compiler for a language Trustfuck+
21:50:11 <Sgeo_> Anyway, the Trustfuck++ compiler (written in Trustfuck) translates Trustfuck++ code to Trustfuck code before calling !, right?
21:50:13 <nooodl> (does trustfuck have 8-bit cells?)
21:50:24 <Sgeo_> Unspecified, but must be allowed to be negatvie
21:50:34 <nooodl> i'll write it non-wrapping
21:50:58 <Sgeo_> Now, what happens when Trustfuck++ uses !?
21:51:13 <Sgeo_> ! in Trustfuck++ will take Trustfuck++ code
21:51:25 <Sgeo_> So the Trustfuck++ compiler will need to be run
21:51:44 <nooodl> which is written in trustfuck?
21:51:52 <nooodl> so you need the trustfuck compiler, etc?
21:52:06 <Sgeo_> Well, at the bottom level it's primitive compilation
21:53:10 <Sgeo_> (Incidentally, ! in Trustfuck++ taking Trustfuck++ is automatic, it's the meaning of Trustfuck's !)
21:53:40 <Sgeo_> I guess that's a bit of an easy mode
21:55:09 <Sgeo_> Although the Haskell implementation does include the Trustfuck written in Trustfuck compiler
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21:55:41 <Sgeo_> Which seemed easier than writing the code to actually, for each character do this, compile, etc.
21:55:44 <Sgeo_> Reuse of machinery
21:56:08 <Sgeo_> Although if you're compiling into while's, etc., that wouldn't be so helpful for you
21:59:29 <Sgeo_> I think I'd really like to see people making better languages with the core Trustfuck concept, rather than more implementations
21:59:43 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
22:07:57 <myname> to be honest, i don't get the core trustfuck concept
22:08:10 <nooodl> http://codepad.org/MbjAElkz this might work idk
22:08:22 <nooodl> i'm going to give actual ! code a shot
22:10:00 <nooodl> oops theres some obvious things wrong with this
22:10:41 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
22:10:51 <Sgeo_> Python is not the best language for emitting.
22:12:01 <Sgeo_> myname, the core idea is that the details of the target of compilers is hidden, you write compilers that target Haskell or Python or whatever without writing a drop of Haskell or Python
22:13:28 <Sgeo_> And when you write a compiler for another language in Trustfuck, that language's compile instruction also does not need to do Trustfuck, you're always compiling to the language you're writing the compiler in.
22:16:46 <nooodl> Sgeo_: http://codepad.org/ttu0lN3B
22:16:52 <nooodl> does this mean i did things right?
22:18:09 <Sgeo_> nooodl, that's one test
22:19:07 <Sgeo_> What happens with the following code? ,+[:,+]!
22:20:02 <Sgeo_> That should compile into Python. Then the equivalent shifted up should compile, and be equivalent
22:20:44 <nooodl> it outputs python code that doesn't seem to be doing anything
22:21:08 <nooodl> it contains the compile() definition and the header, but the "body" i pass it seems to be ignored
22:21:24 <nooodl> which makes sense actually
22:21:40 <Sgeo_> ",+[:,+]!" -TF-> newlang
22:22:13 <Sgeo_> > map succ ",+[-:,+]!"
22:22:35 <Sgeo_> "-,\\.;-,^\"" -newlang-> newlang
22:23:53 <Sgeo_> Let me find my testing directory
22:24:38 <Sgeo_> Oh, I'm wrong about the direct
22:24:47 <Sgeo_> I made a compiler for a language called pred consisting of ,+[:,+]!
22:25:08 <nooodl> echo *********************************- | python tf2.py | python
22:25:20 <Sgeo_> It's pred, because the lack of - means that you go one LOWER than the TF to get the corresponding TF
22:25:21 <nooodl> ^ this now prints '!', then a python program
22:25:38 <Sgeo_> So I compiled that with the compiler
22:26:40 <nooodl> it was a stray " " from my echo command
22:26:43 <nooodl> getting shifted into "!"
22:26:54 <nooodl> then executed, outputting a python program
22:27:29 <Sgeo_> > map pred ",+[-:,+]!"
22:27:38 <Sgeo_> Now, compile that with the pred compiler.
22:27:45 <Sgeo_> And see if the result is also a pred compiler.
22:28:10 <Sgeo_> > var $ map pred ",+[-:,+]!"
22:28:21 <Sgeo_> Oh, that doesn't show the space
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22:30:04 <nooodl> i seem to be getting just a TF compiler, not a pred one
22:30:57 <nooodl> for +*Z9+*\ i get the right thing
22:31:31 <Sgeo_> If you're getting the right thing for that, then your implementation is wrong
22:31:49 <Sgeo_> ! is supposed to take primitives in the language that is currently running, not necessarily TF
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22:33:08 <nooodl> i don't know if i'm doing that
22:33:32 <Sgeo_> And thus nooodl learns the reasoning behind the compiler stack the hard way, just as he predicted
22:33:46 <nooodl> yeah i'm definitely not
22:34:11 <Sgeo_> Possible alternative to this: Make it easy enough to write a quine such that people could make ! behave that way if they want but don't have to
22:34:26 <nooodl> i don't see how to make a new compiler for the currently running language
22:34:43 <Sgeo_> Have all the old compilers on hand.
22:37:01 <nooodl> so what you were saying is, this should be able to print out a compiler for pred, written in python, right?
22:37:27 <nooodl> (which is fails to do because of it not having the compiler stack thing)
22:38:52 <Sgeo_> Because in pred, space takes PRED commands in the code block, not TF commands
22:42:24 <nooodl> theoretically you could apply the same "f(TF) = PRED" process to translate TF into any other language L... and then f(",+[-:,+]!") would be an L program that spits out a python L compiler
22:42:51 <nooodl> i think? trustfuck is kinda crazy
22:43:26 <Sgeo_> nooodl, if I understand you correctly, that is completely correct.
22:43:45 <nooodl> yeah, i'm kinda bad at explaining it
22:47:04 <Sgeo_> You'd need to be able to reverse it. It's easy to make a language L that does not contain equivalents of ! or +
22:48:29 <Sgeo_> So, if you have a transform f(L) = TF, then f^-1(",+[-:,+]!"), if it exists, = compiler for L
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23:12:19 <Sgeo_> o.O wait what http://byorgey.wordpress.com/2012/01/05/parsing-context-sensitive-languages-with-applicative/
23:14:21 <lambdabot> Arrow a => a b c -> a b c' -> a b (c, c')
23:14:46 <Sgeo_> > (pred &&& id &&& succ) 5
23:15:02 <Sgeo_> Would be so nice for (4,5,6) to be syntax sugar for that
23:15:11 <Sgeo_> Although elliott still disagrees
23:15:43 <Bike> don't you mean (4,(5,(6,())))
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23:16:07 <Sgeo_> well, (5,6) is presumably syntax sugar for (5,(6,()))
23:17:25 <elliott> so your (&&&) example would not work
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23:19:21 <oerjan> > each.traverse.(pred, id, succ)$5
23:19:23 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `t0 -> t1'
23:19:35 <lambdabot> (Applicative f, Traversable t1, Each f s t (t1 a) (t1 b)) => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t
23:21:29 <lambdabot> (Indexable (Index t) p, Each f s t a b) => p a (f b) -> s -> f t
23:21:37 * elliott isn't sure what oerjan's example is meant to do
23:21:47 <elliott> (f,g,h) isn't quite a function :P
23:22:29 <lambdabot> `Data.Traversable.sequenceA' (imported from Data.Traversable),
23:22:50 <oerjan> :t Data.Traversable.sequenceA
23:22:52 <lambdabot> (Applicative f, Traversable t) => t (f a) -> f (t a)
23:24:07 <Sgeo_> Can WrapMonad actually break stuff somehow?
23:24:39 <Sgeo_> Hmm, I guess if the monad is an instance of something that WrappedMonad didn't include
23:25:36 <oerjan> > each id (pred, id, succ) 5
23:25:48 <lambdabot> (Indexable (Index t) p, Each f s t a b) => p a (f b) -> s -> f t
23:25:51 <lambdabot> LensLike f s t (f b) b -> s -> f t
23:25:55 <elliott> > sequenceAOf each (pred,id,succ) 5
23:26:06 <oerjan> ah that's the one i was looking for
23:26:28 <lambdabot> LensLike (WrappedMonad m) s t (m b) b -> s -> m t
23:26:28 * Sgeo_ is scared of lenses
23:26:46 <monqy> what's to be afraid of
23:26:58 <Bike> Sgeo_: but your personal hero, Baruch Spinoza, was a glassmaker!
23:28:19 <Sgeo_> o.O at both assuming that I knew who Spinoza was, and that according to Wikipedia, glassmaking may have killed him
23:28:32 <Sgeo_> The latter is a good enough reason for me to be afraid of lenses, I think
23:28:59 <Bike> wait did you actually not know who spinoza was
23:29:15 <Sgeo_> I knew that he existed and was a philosopher
23:29:17 <Bike> he's all famous and shit
23:29:19 <Bike> yeah that's good enough.
23:31:10 <monqy> oh are you talking about lenses like what you put on your eyes to see good
23:31:22 <monqy> yeah those are kind of freaky
23:32:08 <monqy> i have some 'lenses' that make everything dark so my eyes dont hurt in the sunlight? spooks me out every time. theyre staring at me right now. i should move them.
23:32:55 <elliott> are you explaining sunglasses to #esoteric
23:32:59 <elliott> thats probably actually the safe move i guess
23:33:15 <Bike> help what's a sunglass
23:34:05 <monqy> it's like a normal glass but it has a little sun in it, which cancels out with the sun you know and love
23:34:10 <oerjan> it's a glass that contains a sun, import for fusion technology
23:34:28 <monqy> it's not as strong as 'the' sun though so you can still see a bit through it
23:35:10 <Bike> i love science.
23:35:28 <elliott> what if i don't love the sun
23:35:42 <oerjan> then you're probably a vampire
23:36:05 <oerjan> you should avoid touching sunglasses
23:36:39 <oerjan> that was to <elliott> what if i don't love the sun , hth
23:37:03 <nooodl> there should be some kind of sunglasses joke in Lens
23:37:22 <Bike> But sunglasses don't actually have lenses in them. Just glass.
23:37:43 <Bike> christ now i'm imagining someone who uses libraries based on jokes in their source code
23:38:07 <monqy> imagining someone who uses lens
23:38:45 <cookienugget> was that thing you wear on your arm and handle interfaces wirelessly posted here ?
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23:40:28 <tswett> Sgeo_: so why's it called Trustfuck?
23:41:09 <Sgeo_> It was inspired by Reflections on Trusting Trust (although I don't think I actually read the paper)
23:41:17 <tswett> Sunglasses have lenses, but they're lenses that don't do very much refracting.
23:41:27 <tswett> Rather, the refraction doesn't have much net effect.
23:41:30 <Sgeo_> The information about the target language that the compiler needs is 'hidden away' in a trusting trust like manner
23:42:06 <nooodl> https://github.com/noelmarkham/learn-you-a-haskell-exercises hey, this is cool
23:42:59 <nooodl> Bike aren't you reading through LYAH at the moment, this might be useful!
23:43:38 <elliott> and admit he doesn't understand the material first time around?
23:43:43 <elliott> you have no ken of the politics at play here
23:43:49 <elliott> also what are you doing helping a lisper
23:44:09 <Sgeo_> I should try to look at Shen again
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23:46:09 <Bike> i think i'll look at it to see when this gets past "you have only ever used java and don't know what a function is" mode
23:46:29 <elliott> you don't know what a function is
23:46:32 <nooodl> lisper is a weird word to me because there's a street close to where i live that's called Lisperstraat
23:46:35 <elliott> you think they have side effects and stuff
23:46:45 <nooodl> it's called that because a nearby plain is called Het Lisp i think!
23:46:53 <nooodl> also it's not exactly "close", sorry, no stalking me
23:47:14 <Bike> come on man, i know the difference between a procedure and a pure function.
23:47:38 <elliott> come on that was at least slightly funny
23:47:46 <Sgeo_> And can you name a Haskell function that takes 0 arguments, a Haskell function that takes 1 argument, and a Haskell argument that takes 2 arguments?
23:47:49 <Sgeo_> (This is a trick question)
23:48:29 <nooodl> i legitimately don't know the answer to that
23:48:42 <Bike> as a lisper i have also never heard of currying (nor have i been party to really boring arguments about whether "curry" in a library is technically a correct name (it's not))
23:49:16 <Sgeo_> Currying by default has some interesting effects
23:49:22 <Sgeo_> ($) is just type restricted id
23:49:31 <Bike> haha what is that even for
23:49:43 <elliott> > map (uncurry (+)) [(1,2),(3,4)]
23:49:53 <elliott> curry is... harder to find uses for
23:50:05 <Bike> good functions
23:50:15 <elliott> (const and flip const, respectively)
23:50:38 <Bike> can i give up on haskell and program exclusively with ski combinators
23:50:53 <nooodl> maybe if you have some function on pairs (a,b)
23:51:49 <nooodl> because the pairs are points, or something! like distance :: (Int,Int) -> (Int,Int) -> Int
23:51:54 <shachaf> is Bike learning about 0 argument functions
23:51:57 <monqy> something about arrows (why would you)
23:52:03 <elliott> nooodl: and would curry be useful there???????
23:52:06 <nooodl> well they wouldn't be Ints but you get the idea
23:52:22 <Sgeo_> Bike, also there are no 0 argument functions
23:52:24 <monqy> shachaf: sgeo said something silly
23:52:30 <oerjan> there can be no 0 argument functions. there always arguing over functions.
23:52:35 <elliott> Sgeo_: not true. "0-argument function" is a perfectly well-defined concept
23:52:44 <elliott> (they are the same thing as depth-0 nested lists, or such)
23:52:54 <Bike> it's official, i've picked the worst place to learn haskell near.
23:52:57 <tswett> We need to turn the calculus of constructions into a combinator system.
23:53:00 <elliott> the error is in taking this to mean "everything is a function", or promoting functions as somehow special because of that
23:53:21 <tswett> And then program in that.
23:53:23 <monqy> THEORY: everything is a thing
23:53:28 <nooodl> let's say you have a list of x values and a list of y values and you want all of their distances to (0,0),
23:53:35 <tswett> It would be just like programming in the SKI calculus, except worse.
23:53:42 <oerjan> elliott: that generalizes to arbitrary Functors, no?
23:53:44 <nooodl> and instead of writing "map (distance (0,0)) $ zip xs ys"
23:53:59 <elliott> oerjan: generalises to more or less arbitrary anything :P
23:53:59 <monqy> Bike: btw so long as you just ignore the silly things people say (like that thing sgeo said, and that other thing sgeo said what was it yesterday) you'll probably be fine hopefully
23:54:02 <nooodl> you can write like, "zipWith (curry $ distance (0,0)) xs ys"
23:54:08 <tswett> Anyway, I now know what my language is going to be like.
23:54:08 <Bike> monqy: i'm waaaaay ahead of you
23:54:29 <elliott> monqy: you mean as long as Bike ignores #esoteric he'll be ok
23:54:30 <tswett> It's going to be called Tweelee. A program is just going to be a finite state machine operating on a pointed directed unknot diagram.
23:54:54 <elliott> nooodl: so why do you have [Int] and [Int] rather than [(Int,Int)]???
23:54:55 <Sgeo_> monqy, it was a trick question. I was going to note all Haskell functions as having 1 argument
23:54:55 <Bike> i mean, it's not like i don't like this. it's neat having quicksort as a oneliner even if it's not the best implementation, that sort of thing
23:55:06 <monqy> Sgeo_: well it was silly
23:55:07 <Bike> and "filter" is a way better name than "remove-if-not" i tell you what
23:55:07 <nooodl> it was an accident elliott
23:55:14 <elliott> nooodl: <nooodl> you can write like, "zipWith (curry $ distance (0,0)) xs ys"
23:55:17 <elliott> you actually want uncurry there
23:55:30 <monqy> Bike: is that what clisp calls it
23:55:36 <nooodl> yeah uncurry would've actually been easy to find uses for :(
23:55:39 <tswett> The commands let you move forwards and backwards, and perform Reidemeister moves on your vicinity.
23:55:40 <oerjan> <tswett> We need to turn the calculus of constructions into a combinator system. <-- what would a combinator system with explicit types be like...
23:55:42 <Bike> monqy: "cool huh"
23:55:48 <elliott> Bike: well the quicksort one-liner doesnt even have quicksorts asymptomtotmotmotmotmics :-( thankfully merge sort is nice on lazy linked lists!
23:56:04 <Bike> elliott: that's what i meant by not the best implementation.
23:56:04 <tswett> oerjan: well, the type of a CoC term can always be computed from the term.
23:56:12 <elliott> monqy: did you know: clisp also calls map: mapcar???
23:56:17 <elliott> there's not even any automobiles involved
23:56:21 <nooodl> ugh remember when in common lisp,
23:56:27 <Sgeo_> clisp is a specific Common Lisp impelementation
23:56:29 <nooodl> functions and other things are in different namespaces or some crap
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23:56:37 <nooodl> and you have to write (mapcar #'function things)
23:56:40 <tswett> So it'd be a lot like our plain old regular boring combinator systems.
23:56:48 <elliott> remember when in common lisp: it's a terrible language?
23:56:51 <elliott> yes i remember that vividly.
23:57:54 <Sgeo_> I do support the existence of good macros.
23:58:03 <tswett> I lied. This knotty language will be called Tweeling.
23:58:10 <nooodl> i just don't even understand that, the whole function symbol namespace difference thing, isn't the nice thing about lisp not having to do that,,,,,
23:58:26 <Sgeo_> The nice thing about Lisp is macros.
23:58:27 <elliott> theres nothing nice about lisp nooodl
23:58:39 <Bike> it's nice having parameters named "list" but still being able to call the list function. it's not exactly major
23:58:50 <nooodl> wow i tried to parse "tweeling" as an english word and i'm a native dutch speaker
23:59:14 <Sgeo_> The big issue is having to deal with labels and flet in additition to the regular let stuff
23:59:18 <Sgeo_> Well, I guess that's not big
23:59:23 <Sgeo_> But that's an annoyance
23:59:26 <Sgeo_> Also a false sense of security
23:59:32 <oerjan> tswett: i mean that in CoC the terms contain types (and vice versa), no?
23:59:34 <nooodl> Bike: please don't tell me that's "the" argument for having #'functions
23:59:37 <monqy> lisp macros....aren't those those unhygeinic things
23:59:43 <tswett> oerjan: well, every type is also a term.
23:59:47 <elliott> just imagine a dependently typed lisp. where in you have an INFINITE NUMBER OF NAMESPACES
23:59:51 <elliott> because types kinds sorts .
23:59:59 <monqy> welcome to Heck Lisp
00:00:03 <elliott> well dependents kinda irrelevnat there
00:00:06 <Bike> nooodl: there are better ones but i'm not going to bother
00:00:08 <tswett> So in addition to having combinators representing functions, we'll also have to have combinators representing types.
00:00:17 <nooodl> http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_(Lier) lispcon 2013 location
00:00:18 <elliott> Bike: you know lisp-N+1s are shit
00:00:46 <elliott> shitty mathematicians definition of the naturals
00:00:57 <elliott> isnt it amazing how there are mathematicians who ACTUALLY BELIEVE THE NATURALS START WITH ONE
00:01:03 <elliott> probably they don't even KNOW who PEANO is??
00:01:06 <Bike> Important issues, here.
00:01:12 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: well, there's a finite state machine operating on a pointed directed unknot diagram.
00:01:19 <Sgeo_> Can't you have Z be 1?
00:01:28 <Sgeo_> erm, as in, starting point of Peanos
00:01:59 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean for fuck's sake what sort of addition doesn't even have an additive identity
00:02:30 <Sgeo_> nooodl, how's the Trustfuck impl going?
00:02:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i see your radical tendencies peeking out :-)
00:02:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: how have you been feeling about the real nubmers lately
00:02:40 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: the finite state machine is capable of moving the point around the diagram (but only forwards and backwards), as well as performing Reidemeister moves on the part of the diagram ahead of it.
00:02:47 <elliott> because almost all of them don't exist
00:02:54 <nooodl> i didn't know how much of my code was still correct
00:03:00 <monqy> is Phantom_Hoover a finitist
00:03:05 <nooodl> but i also didn't feel like rewriting a new impl from scratch juuust yet
00:03:10 <nooodl> maybe i'll make a new one later though
00:03:12 <elliott> MONQY constructivism isnt finitism
00:03:13 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, hey half the reasons i maintain 0 \in N are normal maths
00:03:17 <Sgeo_> Help design Trustfuck 2?
00:03:43 <Bike> so anyway nother silly haskell question, how's show-ing of things that have only a quantified type work? like 17 since i fucked saying things
00:03:44 * Sgeo_ hides Smalltalk and Lua from Phantom_Hoover
00:03:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: keep trying to convince urself chaitins constant existing is `normal'
00:03:52 <nooodl> does monqy believe 0 isn't \in N
00:03:54 <monqy> there are perfectly fine ways to "construct" the "reals"
00:04:05 <monqy> nooodl: 0 \in N for reasonable values of N
00:04:05 <nooodl> that's my latex ineuqality sign
00:04:12 <elliott> monqy: the computable reals are countable tho
00:04:12 <tswett> Bike: I think Haskell picks a default instance.
00:04:13 <monqy> nooodl: if you're talking to shit mathematicians though you have to be careful
00:04:17 <tswett> Which I think is Integer in this case.
00:04:18 <elliott> and all you can `construct' in eg coq
00:04:25 <Bike> tswett: Really? Boring.
00:04:45 <Phantom_Hoover> istr my foundations course was absolutely terrible with 0
00:04:49 <elliott> (but eg you have the thing where you can't write non-continuous functions w/o LEM)
00:04:59 <nooodl> hm. what's an example of a noncomputable real
00:05:02 <elliott> (b/c you cant case analysis on the reals)
00:05:05 <Bike> nooodl: chaitin's
00:05:05 <oerjan> <elliott> probably they don't even KNOW who PEANO is?? <-- the joke is that Peano started with 1, right?
00:05:25 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: that's pretty usual, sometimes they use Ñ and stuff and it's hilariously dumb
00:05:51 <Bike> what's wrong with chaitin :(
00:05:55 <Bike> i mean besides that he's crazy but
00:06:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: um chaitins is th ebest example
00:06:02 <Sgeo_> Here's an example: A real which cannot be described even with an infinite amount of symbols.
00:06:05 <tswett> Set a = 0 and b = 1, and then let R be a sequence containing all computable real numbers.
00:06:11 <nooodl> chaitin's looks like a good example. i expected something halting problem-y
00:06:17 <elliott> theres a bijection between reals and potentially infinite streams of bits
00:06:40 <tswett> Pop values x from R until a < x < b, then set a := x. Pop values y from R until a < y < b, then set b := y. Repeat forever.
00:07:00 <Sgeo_> Correct example: A real which cannot be described with any finite amount of symbols
00:07:01 <tswett> Both a and b will approach the same uncomputable number.
00:07:12 <Bike> Sgeo_: That's undefinable, not uncomputable.
00:07:29 <Sgeo_> If it's undefinable, it's uncomputable
00:07:37 <Bike> Yes, but not the converse.
00:07:50 <tswett> "Undefinable" has the unfortunate property of being undefinable.
00:08:04 <Phantom_Hoover> nooodl, also there are functions which grow faster than any computable function
00:08:05 <nooodl> i thought making a sequence of all real numbers was impossible! computable or not
00:08:23 <Bike> if by "a sequence" you mean "a bijection with the naturals" then yes
00:08:29 <Phantom_Hoover> the computable reals are a subset of turing machines, or whatever other tc system you want
00:08:43 <tswett> nooodl: there is indeed no sequence that contains all real numbers. However, there is a sequence that contains all computable real numbers.
00:08:51 <Phantom_Hoover> so you can count them, plus a bunch of TMs which aren't computable reals
00:09:08 <Phantom_Hoover> but you can't actually tell if a given element is a CR without the halting problem
00:09:39 <oerjan> Bike: haskell has a default declaration which is used to pick default instances for things, the default default is default (Integer, Double) hth. also ghc has an extension to make it apply in more cases, and also prepends () to the default types.
00:09:58 <Bike> wait that actually does help? what the fuck what is this
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00:10:10 <tswett> (a, b, c) really ought to be syntactic sugar for (a, (b, c)).
00:10:24 <elliott> nooodl: you can well-order the rael numbers :-)
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00:10:42 <Sgeo_> tswett, tell that to elliott, who disagrees
00:11:10 <elliott> yes make me into the absolute hub for not thinking that specific kind of hlist desugaring is a bad idea
00:11:16 <nooodl> "the computable reals are a subset of turing machines" hmmm
00:11:43 <tswett> nooodl: how about this: "the set of all Turing machines that output real numbers is a subset of the set of all Turing machines."
00:11:57 <Phantom_Hoover> nooodl, a cr is basically a TM implementing a function N -> Q that converges
00:12:14 <tswett> And given a Turing machine that outputs a real number, there is an obvious real number corresponding to it.
00:13:23 <tswett> All right. So my language, as I'm currently imagining it, currently only has "if" statements for flow control.
00:13:28 <nooodl> yikes now i'm thinking about things
00:13:32 <elliott> 00:08:05 <nooodl> i thought making a sequence of all real numbers was impossible! computable or not
00:13:40 <elliott> note that the computable reals are a subset of the reals like the naturals are a subset of the reals
00:13:45 <elliott> and i'm sure you believe you can make a sequence of rationals
00:13:50 <elliott> (the set of computable reals is countable)
00:13:59 <Lumpio-> I can make a sequence of all real numbers that are either two or pi
00:14:23 <tswett> 2, pi, pi, 2, pi, 2, 2, pi, pi, 2, 2, pi, 2, pi, pi, 2, pi, 2, 2, pi, 2, pi, pi, 2, 2, pi, pi, 2, pi, 2, 2, pi, ...
00:15:18 <tswett> Let's condense that sequence. It alternates between 2 and pi, using each one the following number of times: 1, 2, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, 2, 1, ...
00:15:22 <Lumpio-> No actually it's just 2 and pi, repeating is silly
00:15:42 <tswett> Which, in turn, alternates between 1 and 2, using each one the following number of times: 1, 1, 2, 3, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 3, 2, 1, ...
00:15:46 <oerjan> <elliott> nooodl: you can well-order the rael numbers :-) <-- unidentified well-founded ordering
00:16:10 <elliott> oerjan: yes. but only with extensional choice
00:16:10 <tswett> Which, if you ignore the beginning 1 and drop all the 2s (since every other number, apart from the beginning 1, is a 2), you get this: 1, 3, 1, 1, 3, 1, ...
00:16:14 <nooodl> "[...] implementing a function N -> Q that converges" i still don't see how that represents a computable real :(
00:16:21 <elliott> (i.e., the choice that is a theorem (not axiom) of type theory does not give it)
00:16:27 <Sgeo_> o.O at parsers parsing things other than strings
00:16:39 <elliott> (and extensional choice implies LEM, iirc)
00:16:39 <nooodl> the real value is just f(0) + f(1) + f(2) + ...?
00:17:16 <Phantom_Hoover> the upshot is, almost all the reals are impossible to define in any meaningful way
00:17:17 <tswett> And that, in turn, alternates between 1 and 3, using each one the following number of times: 1, 1, 2, 1, ...
00:17:37 <Phantom_Hoover> and indeed this is true even if you're being nonconstructive
00:18:01 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: yes. but only with extensional choice <-- you missed the pun on your misspelling hth
00:18:13 <tswett> All right. So my language, as I'm currently imagining it, currently only has "if" statements for flow control. This makes the language definitely not Turing-complete; you can, in O(n) time, look at a program and place an upper bound on the length of time for which it will run.
00:18:34 <tswett> Assuming you can perform arithmetic in O(1) time.
00:19:01 <lambdabot> It could refer to either `Control.Arrow.<+>',
00:19:01 <lambdabot> imported from `Control.Arrow' at State/L.hs:5:1-20
00:19:04 <elliott> oerjan: oh that was rly stupid
00:19:38 <tswett> So I need some way to go back and loop.
00:20:08 <oerjan> tswett: btw why didn't you use the kolakoski sequence above hth
00:20:29 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, why did you have to say all the stuff about it while like 2 other discussions were going on
00:20:51 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: nobody told me not to.
00:22:07 <oerjan> ^ul (12)S(*a(~:)~*^~):((1)S)~*~((2)S:*)~*:(~:()~)~*^(a(:^)*~a(*()~)~*^~^):^
00:22:09 <fungot> 122112122122112112212112122112112122122112122121121122122112122122112112122121122122112122122112112212112122122112112122112112212112112212211212212112212212112112212211212212112112212112122112112122121122122112122122112112122112112212212112122112112212112112212212112122112112122122112122121121122122121122122112122122112112 ...too much output!
00:25:25 <nooodl> > let kola = [1] ++ concat $ zipWith replicate kola $ cycle [2,1] in take 20 kola
00:25:27 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[t0]'
00:25:36 <nooodl> > let kola = [1] ++ (concat $ zipWith replicate kola $ cycle [2,1]) in take 20 kola
00:25:38 <lambdabot> [1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,2,1,2]
00:25:54 <oerjan> nooodl: you don't need to use take in lambdabot
00:26:03 <nooodl> boo. it gets the start wrong somehow
00:26:11 <tswett> nooodl: you're not removing the initial 1.
00:26:22 <Bike> i "realized" while out that it might be more interesting that constructivists would deny the existence of say the set of subsets of the naturals rather than reals but this is probably because i don't yet truly know how fucked up computable analysis is
00:26:30 <tswett> > let kola = [1,2] ++ (concat $ zipWith replicate (drop 2 kola) $ cycle [2,1]) in take 20 kola
00:26:42 <tswett> Maybe that's not the problem.
00:26:48 <elliott> Bike: have you noticed that powersets are scary
00:27:00 <Bike> well they only drove cantor insane
00:27:28 * Bike was thinking about the set of all subsets of a set not containing an element of the set earlier, and it got tied up with this
00:27:40 <Bike> i read a paper once on "power types"
00:27:41 <nooodl> > let kola@(_:ks) = [1] ++ (concat $ zipWith replicate kola $ cycle [2,1]) in 1:2:ks
00:27:43 <lambdabot> [1,2,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,2,1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,...
00:27:46 <Bike> now that was some good shit
00:29:10 <Phantom_Hoover> * Bike was thinking about the set of all subsets of a set not containing an element of the set earlier, and it got tied up with this
00:29:40 <tswett> Oh. Not containing a *given* element of the set.
00:29:43 <nooodl> oh huh kolakoski is A000002
00:29:47 <tswett> As opposed to not containing *any* element of the set.
00:29:58 <Bike> wouldn't that just be empty
00:30:07 <tswett> It's like A000001, except posterior.
00:30:11 <tswett> Bike: it would be {{}}, yeah.
00:30:17 <oerjan> > fix(([1,2]++).drop 2.concat.zipWith(flip replicate)(cycle[1,2]))
00:30:19 <lambdabot> [1,2,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,2,1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,...
00:31:15 <tswett> Trivia: "sword" is not a subword of "subword".
00:31:26 <Sgeo_> Do people use Parsec when making stuff for QQ stuff in Haskell?
00:31:47 <monqy> Q: why are you doing QQ stuff
00:32:02 <monqy> just making sure you're not hopped up on macros again
00:32:28 <Sgeo_> Yesod uses it, right?
00:32:39 <nooodl> ugh. Q: how do math people write that a function returns, for example, a set of reals
00:33:11 <monqy> i think ive also seen subset
00:33:29 <monqy> powerset is what i see most of the time
00:34:05 <nooodl> wow crazy people use ℙ for powerset according to wikipedia
00:34:33 <Bike> solely to piss off kmc no doubt
00:35:08 <monqy> dont use blackbord bold for powerset....
00:35:08 <nooodl> ℙ(ℙ) "power set of prime set"
00:35:40 <nooodl> math's notation is such a fucking trainwreck at times
00:35:41 <monqy> i think mathcal is the proper font to use? i'm fairly certain i've seen mathsf and mathscr though
00:36:20 <Phantom_Hoover> fortunately there's not much confusion with the latter because the weirstrass function is never actually used as a function
00:36:45 <monqy> nooodl: at times/most of the time really
00:37:08 <nooodl> well sometimes it's really good & clever
00:37:13 <tswett> What does the "sf" in mathsf stand for?
00:37:27 <Phantom_Hoover> nooodl, it helps if you remember that it's still mostly written by hand
00:37:30 <Bike> nooodl: like....
00:37:49 <Sgeo_> "This combinator is provided for compatibility with Parsec. Attoparsec parsers always backtrack on failure."
00:38:01 <Bike> have you ever looked at a 9
00:38:05 <Phantom_Hoover> and there are a load of ways to write any given symbols
00:38:05 <Bike> like really looked at a 9
00:38:22 <monqy> 9 is pretty heck but i love 7 so it makes up for it
00:38:22 <tswett> Like, an actual 9, or a numeral 9?
00:38:43 <nooodl> surely someone out there has had the zany idea to reinvent the notation for Everything
00:38:44 <elliott> except you have to dash the 7
00:38:49 <elliott> and then it looks not so good
00:38:52 <monqy> i always dash my 7s
00:38:52 <Phantom_Hoover> because those times when you nail it and it has an elegant curl in the tail are the best things ever
00:38:55 <monqy> i love dashes on 7s
00:38:57 <elliott> i hate 1 because you need to make it all fancy to avoid ambiguity
00:39:00 <Bike> nooodl: you have no idea
00:39:01 <monqy> i also give my 7s cute little hooks
00:39:05 <elliott> and its also the caues of the 7 Ambiguity Problem
00:39:16 <monqy> sometimes my 7s look like my ts, or maybe it's more that my ts look like my 7s
00:39:20 <Bike> also i wrote out a 4 the other day and one of my coworkers stopped me for two minutes to ask me about how i wrote it
00:39:25 <Bike> "i've never seen someone write a 4 like that"
00:39:26 <elliott> monqy: whats your handwriting look like
00:39:26 <nooodl> jesus. i write my 2s like a normal person and it makes them look a lot like Zs or zs
00:39:41 <elliott> i like how the variable x looks but im so bad at writing it
00:39:53 <Bike> x is christian propaganda
00:40:05 <nooodl> my x is literally an x
00:40:24 <elliott> you're disgusting, rectify yourself
00:40:41 <Phantom_Hoover> but once you get the hang of it the / runs together and it looks great
00:41:19 <nooodl> this is the only picture of my math handwriting i've got https://dl.dropbox.com/u/15495351/snow/IMAG0043.jpg
00:41:38 <nooodl> which is probably 1 more picture than the average person
00:42:06 <shachaf> elliott already knows what my "math handwriting" looks like
00:42:22 <monqy> elliott: i have a few copeies of me trying to handwrite on my tablet from a while ago...there's an aspect ratio problem which messes up my hand-eye coordination so it's kind of eugh
00:42:37 <Bike> dumb question again, how do i write "numLongChains long max = length $ longChains long max" in that fancyass pointless style
00:42:42 <nooodl> i have this thing too which is normal writing and it's very real
00:42:45 <nooodl> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/15495351/snow/IMAG0046.jpg
00:43:07 <Sgeo_> Bike, you can ask lambdabot
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00:43:17 <tswett> @pl numLongChains long max = length $ longChains long max
00:43:17 <Bike> nvm figured it out
00:43:17 <lambdabot> numLongChains = (length .) . longChains
00:43:19 <nooodl> Bike: numLongChains = length .: longChains
00:43:25 <Phantom_Hoover> note how nooodl double-spaces his work and sets it all out neatly
00:43:37 <monqy> i use latex for math
00:43:45 <monqy> writing is for losers
00:43:59 <nooodl> monqy: i can't do that at school!!!
00:44:17 <Bike> wait is this linguistics
00:44:21 <monqy> elliott: gosh i have 6 pictures of me trying to handwrite and they're all sorta different
00:44:35 <monqy> elliott: i forget what i did differently each time except for handwriting6.png
00:44:37 <shachaf> i want to see monqys trying to handwrite
00:44:43 <Phantom_Hoover> i want to use latex but why does it have to have all that madness with \doctype and headings and everything
00:44:52 <shachaf> btw i have worse handwriting than any of you
00:44:59 <nooodl> latex is literally the worst thing
00:45:13 <monqy> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/handwriting.png
00:45:14 <monqy> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/handwriting2.png
00:45:15 <monqy> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/handwriting23.png
00:45:16 <elliott> dont tell people to use (.:)
00:45:19 <monqy> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/handwriting3.png
00:45:21 <monqy> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/handwriting4.png
00:45:24 <monqy> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/handwriting5.png
00:45:26 <monqy> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/handwriting6.png
00:45:29 <monqy> there thats all of them
00:45:30 <nooodl> are you going to tell me to use (.).(.)
00:45:33 <nooodl> if so i'm going to cry
00:45:34 <monqy> (handwriting23 does not exist)
00:45:40 <elliott> im going to tell you to add a fuckn point
00:45:43 <monqy> dont use (.).(.)...............................
00:45:52 <Bike> what the heck is .:
00:45:53 -!- md_5 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
00:46:02 <nooodl> holy shit. monqy's handwriting
00:46:02 <elliott> monqy: shit your handwriting is nice
00:46:07 <lambdabot> Source not found. Do you think like you type?
00:46:20 <Sgeo_> Bike, it exists, but may be considered to be an excessive use of pointfree style
00:46:27 <elliott> well i dont like the unfilled dots
00:46:36 <shachaf> imo dijkstra has the best handwriting
00:46:40 <Bike> imo monqy should dot his js with a heart
00:46:41 <shachaf> so you might as well give up now
00:46:42 <monqy> when im writing with a real pen i think i use normal dots
00:46:48 <nooodl> here's a little "latex gem"
00:46:48 <Sgeo_> Although "exists" as in, "well-known", not "standard"
00:46:49 <nooodl> \chemname{\chemfig{C([2]-\lewis{024,Cl})([6]-\lewis{046,Cl})([:-150]-\lewis{357,Cl})([:-30]-\lewis{157,Cl})}}{Koolstoftetrachloride}
00:46:50 <monqy> but with tablets i cant resist
00:47:14 <shachaf> U+24A38 COMBINING HEART ABOVE
00:47:27 <Sgeo_> Oh hey Aeson uses .: for something else
00:47:40 <elliott> my hand writing is worse than nooodls by far tho
00:47:55 <Phantom_Hoover> that's for a diagram, however you represent that textually it's going to be awkward
00:48:20 <nooodl> i can write really neatly if i try
00:48:21 <elliott> like my handwriting is honestly a 6 year olds
00:48:31 <shachaf> elliott: my handwriting is a 3 years olds??
00:48:49 <elliott> shachaf: do you even have any proof all i see is you syaing your handwriting is so much worse than everyone else's!!
00:48:58 <shachaf> elliott: do you have proof!!
00:49:01 <nooodl> what now Phantom_Hoover!!!!!
00:49:25 <tswett> I can write in cursive, but only words that only contain the letters a, e, h, i, n, o, s, and t.
00:49:40 <tswett> There are a bunch of such words.
00:49:45 <Phantom_Hoover> nooodl, good luck writing a transparent parser for that
00:50:08 <tswett> I have a little sheet of paper on which I've written "anaesthesia antiatheist assassination ensheathe hastiness heathenishness hesitation honestness ..."
00:50:15 <tswett> Sgeo_: you know, I think any function can be thought of as a parser.
00:50:18 <nooodl> "you don't need to parse pure beauty any further"
00:50:18 <monqy> im going to try handwriting again
00:50:29 <Phantom_Hoover> the entire point of latex is that you give it a general representation and leave the typesetting details to it
00:50:45 <elliott> i think dijkstras handwriting is still a bit better than monqys
00:50:45 <Sgeo_> PArrows is unmaintained :(
00:50:57 <monqy> my handwriting is smaller than that irl
00:51:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: fsvo all of that
00:51:03 -!- md_5 has joined.
00:51:04 <monqy> but my tablet setup is miserable
00:51:09 <monqy> and i dont have a scanner or anything
00:51:10 <Jafet> Help what is handwriting
00:51:19 <elliott> monqy: by smaller i mean... less fussy mainly??? as in less ... "area"
00:51:22 <nooodl> i stole my f's from dijkstra
00:51:24 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at end of input
00:51:25 <elliott> i dont know how to express the meaning
00:51:30 <nooodl> but they don't look like dijkstra f's anymore...
00:51:33 <monqy> yeah my handwriting is pretty fussy
00:51:48 <nooodl> is there a good nooodl f in that image
00:51:48 <lambdabot> unexpected end-of-file in string/character literal at end ...
00:52:22 <nooodl> yeah https://dl.dropbox.com/u/15495351/snow/IMAG0046.jpg there's "koffie" near the bottom right corner
00:52:41 <shachaf> elliott: if you come to america ill show you my handwriting
00:52:43 <elliott> nooodl: all these words are spelled wrong
00:52:51 <elliott> and they don't mean anything?
00:52:59 <elliott> you must get awful grades in english
00:53:07 <nooodl> whats your favorite word on this page elliott
00:53:28 <elliott> or maybe the one that looks like "groudshroffen"
00:53:46 <nooodl> "grondstoffen", "kolonie"
00:54:06 <elliott> ziet seems like the kind of word that always wants to have a ! after it
00:54:10 <nooodl> that's "suiker" (sugar)
00:54:31 <nooodl> elliott: that's actually some kind of old-fashioned imperative
00:54:52 <nooodl> "aanstelling" i don't even know how to translate that
00:55:14 <tswett> That's not a "t", though, that's an "h".
00:55:39 <nooodl> that's just because i'm bad at writing letters :(
00:56:22 <nooodl> i can see what happened, though. wanted to write a 't', and then i had to lower my pen a bit to start writing the 'e', but i didn't lift it from the paper, whoops
00:57:06 <elliott> ziettttttttttttttttttttttttttt!!!!
00:57:39 <oerjan> > fix(concat.(zipWith.flip.sequence$sequence[const pure,(tail.).replicate])(cycle[1,2]))
00:57:40 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a0 -> c0' with actual type `[a1]'
00:57:50 <Bike> i wrote "longChains long max = filter ((> long) . length) (map chain [1..max])". is my "style" an insult to all that is holy or
00:57:50 <oerjan> no way that would work on first try
00:57:51 <elliott> monqy: i just thought of a really awful pun
00:57:51 <nooodl> aanstelling is "appointment, commission, nomination"
00:58:11 <nooodl> can i; did i inspire it
00:58:15 <oerjan> :t sequence$sequence[const pure,(tail.).replicate]
00:58:17 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a0]' with actual type `b0 -> a1'
00:58:17 <lambdabot> In the return type of a call of `const'
00:58:17 <lambdabot> Probable cause: `const' is applied to too few arguments
00:58:32 <oerjan> :t sequence$sequence[const pure]
00:58:33 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a0]' with actual type `b0 -> a1'
00:58:33 <lambdabot> In the return type of a call of `const'
00:58:33 <lambdabot> Probable cause: `const' is applied to too few arguments
00:58:36 <nooodl> ooh http://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/ziet this page actually has "Ziet!" on it
00:59:05 <oerjan> :t sequence$sequence[]
00:59:21 <elliott> nooodl: you probably want en.wiktionary
00:59:26 <elliott> foo.wiktionary.org means entries are in language foo
00:59:29 <elliott> they all cover all languages
00:59:38 <elliott> tho en.wiktionary's ziet doesn't have ziet!
00:59:46 <elliott> q: what did the great film written by a mathematician have?
00:59:52 <nooodl> en.wiktionary.org covers less dutch stuff :(
01:00:01 <Bike> @hoogle (Functor f) => (a -> b -> a) -> a -> f b -> a
01:00:02 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable foldl :: Foldable t => (a -> b -> a) -> a -> t b -> a
01:00:02 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable foldl' :: Foldable t => (a -> b -> a) -> a -> t b -> a
01:00:03 <lambdabot> Data.IntMap foldl :: (a -> b -> a) -> a -> IntMap b -> a
01:00:12 <nooodl> i'm smiling pretty hard at elliott's pun
01:01:01 <elliott> Bike: how would "that work" exactly
01:01:37 <nooodl> how would ""what work""
01:01:39 <Bike> guess it wouldn't
01:01:50 <Bike> folds over functors
01:02:21 <elliott> well did you mean Foldable
01:02:29 <elliott> Functor only provides (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
01:02:33 <elliott> so i'm not sure what your operation is meant to do
01:02:45 <Bike> it is meant to go "huh [] is a functor isn't it!!" because
01:03:51 <monqy> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/handwriting-hell.png i tried a few takes
01:04:09 <nooodl> monqy's handwriting is graffiti
01:04:46 <monqy> if i'm trying to make it particularly legible it gets boring
01:05:02 <nooodl> that's the handwriting dilemma!
01:05:55 <Bike> hm, i have to specify Prelude.foldl or Data.Foldable.foldl even if i'm just folding a list so it's the same
01:06:37 <oerjan> > fix(concat.zipWith(\x n -> x:replicate(n-1)x)(cycle[1,2]))
01:06:44 <oerjan> > fix(concat.zipWith(\x n -> x:replicate(n-1)x)(cycle[1,2]))
01:07:09 <oerjan> possibly something is wrong here
01:07:14 <Bike> where's fix again, i want fix
01:07:23 <lambdabot> Control.Monad.Fix module Control.Monad.Fix
01:07:23 <lambdabot> Data.Function fix :: (a -> a) -> a
01:09:30 <elliott> <Bike> hm, i have to specify Prelude.foldl or Data.Foldable.foldl even if i'm just folding a list so it's the same
01:09:39 <elliott> you're meant to import Foldable qualified, or hide the functions from Prelude
01:09:58 <Bike> i'm sure, i was just wondering if it would subsume the prelude definition
01:10:11 <elliott> monqy: your handwriting got smudgier
01:10:14 <elliott> did you leave it out in the rain
01:10:41 <monqy> elliott: gimp update =/
01:10:50 <tswett> That type II Reidemeister move thing is going to be difficult to realize.
01:10:53 <monqy> it got a new pen tool interface
01:11:13 <monqy> or do you mean the shapes of the letters
01:11:16 <monqy> it might have gotten smudgier
01:11:39 <monqy> oh yeah that's gimp
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01:25:17 <oerjan> you don't need the first .*
01:25:57 <HackEgo> 2009-10-11.txt:06:42:55: * ehird erects anti-swatting forcefield around himself
01:26:32 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.5952
01:26:36 * oerjan gives elliott a very delayed swat -----###
01:27:47 <oerjan> wait, maybe it is not right to punish elliott for that terrible 2009 person
01:27:47 <hagb4rd> actually i'm looking for the cats with the heart shaped eyes^^
01:28:01 <oerjan> nooodl: not to my knowledge.
01:29:18 <hagb4rd> punishing cannot be elliott
01:29:28 <hagb4rd> punishing elliott cannot be wrong
01:29:32 <Bike> "impomatic, why would the switch to the forcefield be inside the asylum?" good lo
01:29:46 <Bike> "<Bike> ⌇⌇forcefields⌇⌇" definitely a good log
01:30:08 <oerjan> _someone_ hasn't set up their charset properly.
01:31:02 <hagb4rd> http://esolangs.org/wiki/CAT
01:31:11 <Phantom_Hoover> it's just an object in the something of small somethings
01:32:22 <HackEgo> Monoids are just categories with a single object.
01:32:39 <HackEgo> Categories are just a special case of bicategories.
01:32:53 <HackEgo> An object is just something in a category.
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01:37:26 <hagb4rd> ^ord ⌇⌇forcefields⌇⌇
01:37:26 <fungot> 195 162 197 146 226 128 161 195 162 197 146 226 128 161 102 111 114 99 101 102 105 101 108 100 115 195 162 197 146 226 128 161 195 162 197 146 226 128 161
01:39:58 <hagb4rd> how can do boolean bitwise comparison on two integers in haskell ..bytes for example
01:41:11 <fungot> 40 66 32 38 38 32 65 41
01:41:50 <fungot> 40 34 66 34 124 34 65 34 41
01:42:28 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num GHC.Types.Bool)
01:44:22 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
01:44:49 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
01:44:55 <fungot> +++++++++++++++[>++++++++>++++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>++++++.>++++++.<<----.>----------------------------------.<----.>>+++.<<-----------.+.>>>.<++++++.<<-.>>-----.<++++++++++++++++++++++++++.--------------------------.<+.>>++.>+++++.<<<+.>>>+.<-.<.>----------------------.<++++++++++++.------------.>----------------------.<<------.>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>----.<---.<++++.++++++++.>-
01:45:57 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[<++++[>--------<-]+>-[-------[--[<+++[>----<-]+>[<
01:49:02 <fungot> +15[>+8>+4>+7>+7<4-]>2+6.>+6.<2-4.>-34.<-4.>2+3.<2-11.+.>3.<+6.<2-.>2-5.<+26.-26.<+.>2+2.>+5.<3+.>3+.<-.<.>-22.<+12.-12.>-22.<2-6.>+67.>2-4.<-3.<+4.+8.>-37.<2-.>2+12.-12.<2-27.>3-4.<2.<-3.>.+5.>.+.+11.-12.>+5.-11.+12.-11.+2.-3.+.+13.<2.>.<2-2.>2.>.<2-2.>.>-48.-19.<.<+2.<+40.>+.-.+.<-6.+13.>-.>.>-.+.<.<2-2.-8.>.<-4.>-.<+4.+11.>-10.-8.>.<2+14.>3.<.<+9.>+67.<+5.-..>2-12.+9.+3.-12.<-.<-2.<-11.-2.>2.+13.<2+3.>3.+.
01:49:30 <oerjan> str:0 contains the code for prefixes
01:50:57 <oerjan> it is possible the str:n syntax only works in ^def, not plain ^bf
01:51:24 <lambdabot> Prelude (&&) :: Bool -> Bool -> Bool
01:51:24 <lambdabot> Data.Bool (&&) :: Bool -> Bool -> Bool
01:51:24 <lambdabot> Control.Arrow (&&&) :: Arrow a => a b c -> a b c' -> a b (c, c')
01:51:34 <Bike> huh, why no & anywhere?
01:51:44 <oerjan> it's in Data.Lens now :)
01:52:02 <oerjan> it's just flip ($), anyway
01:52:29 <Bike> i just meant the identifier. i would have expected & instead of .&., that sort of thing
01:52:46 <oerjan> i don't know why no one used it before
01:53:07 <oerjan> it's probably because they couldn't use | as that's syntax
01:53:18 <oerjan> so they made it .&. by analogy with .|.
01:53:42 <hagb4rd> would be familiar at least
01:54:06 <Bike> hagb4rd: those are the booleans.
01:54:12 <Bike> haskell is basically just glorified C right
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01:54:36 <lambdabot> Functor f => f a -> (a -> b) -> f b
01:54:53 <lambdabot> The operator `Control.Lens.Combinators.<&>' [infixl 1] of a section
01:55:04 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `A'
01:55:04 <Bike> > 64 `shiftL` 1
01:55:11 <Bike> have you considered: documentation
01:55:57 <Bike> behold http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/base/4.2.0.1/doc/html/Data-Bits.html
01:55:59 <hagb4rd> i'm not really out for sth
01:56:39 <hagb4rd> maybe for some conversation
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01:57:29 <hagb4rd> conversation is such a dirty word
01:58:31 <oerjan> stupid operator, does some silly vertical merging
01:58:47 <oerjan> unlike the intuitive $+$ version
01:59:27 <oerjan> > text "like" $$ nest 4 (text "this") -- maybe
01:59:39 <oerjan> > text "like" $$ nest 5 (text "this") -- maybe
01:59:51 <oerjan> seems it wants at least a space
01:59:56 <oerjan> > text "like" $+$ nest 5 (text "this") -- maybe
02:00:22 <oerjan> (lambdabot has an extra space on the first line)
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02:08:26 <oerjan> i can understand that they might want $$ for haskell do blocks and the like, but not making it the default vertical combiner.
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02:52:04 <oerjan> > length . filter (< 2^30) . take 1000 . randomRS (0,1431655765) $ mkStdGen 42
02:52:12 <oerjan> > length . filter (< 2^30) . take 1000 . randomRs (0,1431655765) $ mkStdGen 42
02:52:41 <oerjan> > 2^30/1431655766 * 1000
02:53:48 <oerjan> > length . filter (< 1431655765 `div` 2) . take 1000 . randomRs (0,1431655765) $ mkStdGen 42
02:55:08 <oerjan> > genRange (undefined :: StdGen)
02:56:02 <oerjan> > 2 * genRange (undefined :: StdGen) `div` 3
02:56:04 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Integral (GHC.Types.Int, GHC.Types.Int))
02:56:16 <oerjan> > 2 * snd (genRange (undefined :: StdGen)) `div` 3
02:58:44 <oerjan> > length . filter (< 1431655708 `div` 2) . take 1000 . randomRs (0,1431655708) $ mkStdGen 42
02:59:22 <oerjan> hm i thought the discrepancy would be the other way around...
03:06:07 <oerjan> it's pretty bad, anyway :P
03:07:17 <oerjan> (basically System.Random uses mod to generate random integrals.)
03:08:34 <elliott> System.Random is kind of awful
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03:17:49 <zzo38> Just using mod is not good enough by itself though
03:18:15 <Bike> isn't that the point
03:18:17 <oerjan> no, it makes it potentially awful, as i demonstrated.
03:18:24 <zzo38> There are ways to improve it, though.
03:18:30 <oerjan> half the range is twice as likely as the other
03:18:53 <oerjan> although i don't understand why it's _that_ half and not the other :P
03:19:25 <zzo38> Yes, and I thought of that when programming TeXnicard, and other programs, too.
03:19:46 <zzo38> Notice that the Pokemon card named DIGGER also makes probabilities such as 2/3 with coins, is another way.
03:19:59 <zzo38> You also need good quality random number generators. Is ARCFOUR good enough?
03:20:41 <zzo38> Is ARCFOUR+delay+microphone good enough? (This is what Famicom Hangman uses)
03:20:46 <oerjan> i have no idea about that bit :P
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03:21:10 <oerjan> i just had a look in System.Random's code, noticed the ominous `mod`, and wanted to test it
03:21:49 <oerjan> (i originally wanted to see how well it deals with unusual genRanges. the answer to that is: not at all.
03:22:20 <oerjan> it simply assumes genRange is the same as for stdGen.
03:22:32 <oerjan> and _still_ manages to do things badly for that.
03:23:49 <oerjan> presumably it's still ok as long as the range is tiny, and for floats.
03:34:51 <oerjan> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/5280
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04:31:06 <Sgeo_> Time to try to break my brain thinking about a language based off Trustfuck
04:31:13 <Sgeo_> Let's call it Trustfuck--
04:31:36 <Sgeo_> As though it were a prior version of Trustfuck.
04:32:26 <Sgeo_> All I'm going to say for now, while I go to make food and think
04:39:22 <monqy> dont just leave us hanging
04:43:17 <Sgeo_> Maybe ! should just do trustfuck primitives, rather than "current language" primitives, and a primitive be added for quines, and some other features to make converting ! to mean "current language" a relatively simple task
04:44:47 <Sgeo_> Although now I'm wondering if something vaguely inspired by Feather might be a good idea
04:45:01 <Sgeo_> Would ais523 be mad if I called a language "Featherfuck"?
04:45:37 <Bike> does the vague inspiration involve time travel? if not you're fine
04:47:26 <Sgeo_> Either reruning code or doing some fixed-point thingamabob
04:48:23 <Sgeo_> Haven't thought through the fixed-point thing well enough to know if it's even a coherent thought, although probably not
05:03:50 <Sgeo_> In disadvantages of ropes, the Wikipedia article says "Increased complexity of source code; greater risk for bugs"
05:03:54 <kmc> zzo38: your Famicom Hangman game uses RC4 as a random number generator?
05:04:08 <Sgeo_> Isn't that what code reuse is for? Does any non-library actually re-implement ropes?
05:05:27 <kmc> in the real world code reuse is not so much a thing
05:09:54 <zzo38> kmc: Yes it does use RC4 as a random number generator, and it runs several times per frame. It also uses the microphone, if there is one.
05:15:48 <zzo38> Is it good enough?
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06:13:18 <HackEgo> smlist: shachaf monqy elliott
06:13:33 <monqy> “a responsibility„
06:21:51 <Jafet> With great power comes great utility bills
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06:43:36 <kmc> 28.8 kilobonghits per second
06:44:34 <pikhq> I dunno, "kibibonghit" flows better.
06:44:53 <Jafet> Are those imperial or nautical bonghits
07:44:03 <zzo38> What would you use if *you* are making Famicom Hangman?
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08:55:15 <Taneb> > let i = (:+) 0 in 4 + i 2
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09:32:42 <myname> could someone explain me why n-cycle clears with n > 1 is any better than 1-cycled in bf joust?
09:35:11 <myname> i.e. i don't see the advantage of [-.] over [-].
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14:19:12 <ion> A fully functional in-browser clone of SimCity. http://tholman.com/playable-simcity-2013/
14:19:38 <Taneb> Not fully functional enough!
14:23:12 <hagb4rd> nightmare mode(tm) forever!
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16:20:13 <Taneb> Is that :( at my Arrow explanation or my Applicative explanation
16:20:26 <Taneb> I'm presuming my Arrow explanation although my Applicative explanation did suck
16:23:50 <elliott> it was at "(<*>) takes a thing full of functions, and a thing full of inputs to the function, and applies the functions and the inputs in some way, then combines the rest of the things together
16:26:39 <Taneb> How is that inaccurate or misleading
16:28:30 <elliott> well "thing full of" and the plural...........
16:28:48 <elliott> you can have stuff where the "functions" branch on an undetermined amount of input etc. where the container analogy kinda breaks down
16:30:03 <Taneb> Analogies break down eventually
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16:30:55 <elliott> well imo it's a bad idea to give people things that will confuse them when they get to stuff like that because they've been given preconceptions...... especially when there's a lot of bad tutorials they can read if they really want analogies
16:31:00 <elliott> but it wasn't a really big frown
16:36:59 <Taneb> On another note, ekmett added me to another repo
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16:41:31 <nooodl> @hoogle [a] -> ([a],a,[a])
16:42:39 <elliott> i just sigh whenever i get another email about that now
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16:44:01 <Bike> :t \pivot:xs -> (filter (pivot <=) xs,pivot,filter (> pivot) xs)
16:44:08 <Bike> :t \(pivot:xs) -> (filter (pivot <=) xs,pivot,filter (> pivot) xs)
16:44:18 <Taneb> I have a feeling that I'm the only person who's been added to tables
16:45:05 <Bike> :t \(x:xs) -> (xs,x,xs) -- boring
16:45:39 <Taneb> :t \(x:xs) -> ([],x,xs) -- maybe what nooodl wants
16:46:29 <nooodl> hmm, i just realized i actually want
16:46:29 <nooodl> @hoogle Int -> [a] -> ([a],a,[a])
16:46:56 <nooodl> but splitAt is close enough
16:47:28 <nooodl> f = (\(a,b:c) -> (a,b,c)) . splitAt
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16:52:51 <elliott> also that f is wrong but mainly dont do that
16:53:19 <nooodl> i need (.).(.) don't i
16:53:31 <nooodl> also what's wrong, i might not actually be doing the wrong thing anymore
16:54:08 <elliott> well using indices into lists is generally a bad idea
16:55:03 <nooodl> are you essentially saying "don't use (!!)" here
16:55:14 <Taneb> I agree with elliott
16:55:31 <nooodl> well.... i'm fairly sure i do need indices sorry
16:55:41 <Sgeo> Then use a structure other than lists
16:55:54 <Sgeo> I think that's the point
16:56:08 <nooodl> this is from that lyah exercise thingy
16:56:11 <Bike> naw O(n) access is the shit bro
16:56:27 <nooodl> it's asking me to write a binary search function on list that also logs using Writer
16:56:36 <nooodl> i know it's not something you'd actually do...
16:57:33 <elliott> well if the lyah exercises want you to do bad things then imho they're bad exercises!
16:57:44 <elliott> but i doubt you need indices to do binary search on []
16:57:49 <nooodl> also from the example it's apparent that the guy who made the exercise solved it wrong himself
16:58:13 <nooodl> how're you going to find the center without indices
16:58:44 <elliott> imo these exercises sound shit and you should stop doing them?
16:59:19 <nooodl> they're better than the alternative of "no exercises"
16:59:41 <Deewiant> Figure out how to use arrays and implement binary search with them
17:00:36 <nooodl> this solution probably wouldn't require a lot of changes to work with Array! i might do that
17:01:04 <elliott> too bad Array sucks too :(
17:01:35 <nooodl> what should i use then
17:01:49 <Bike> so what do you use if you want arrays, in haskell
17:01:53 <nooodl> man, this type signature is growing to be pretty large
17:01:55 <nooodl> binarySearch :: (Show a, Ord a, Eq a, Monoid b) => (a -> a -> b) -> a -> Array Int a -> Writer b Bool
17:02:04 <Deewiant> Vectors unless something new's come up since
17:02:22 <nooodl> why does it even say Ord a, Eq a
17:02:51 <Sgeo> How do arrays suck?
17:02:54 <Sgeo> Too many of them?
17:03:43 <elliott> Bike: vector or maybe repa or something but sometimes array is the only non-annoying option
17:03:47 <elliott> but then it's annoying because it's array
17:03:48 <Deewiant> http://u.arboreus.com/2011/03/how-to-choose-haskell-array-library.html has some stuff
17:04:18 <Bike> sorry "feature matrix"
17:04:40 <Bike> wait, why does it not have access time for Data.Array.
17:05:00 <nooodl> that sounds interesting
17:05:14 <Bike> do they just suck that much
17:05:30 <nooodl> import qualified Data.Vector as V
17:05:36 <nooodl> is this evil, it feels evil
17:06:41 <Deewiant> Bike: Possibly because the Ix class can be arbitrarily slow?
17:08:33 <Deewiant> Since it's immutable it doesn't have to copy anything, so of course
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17:08:47 <nooodl> ugh who thought "snoc" was a good name for snoc
17:11:03 <elliott> Deewiant: (bad GC properties :( )
17:12:11 <Deewiant> elliott: Yeah GCs kinda suck like that
17:13:00 <elliott> there should be a way to do the copying of the "take"d elements when the original array gets freed
17:13:30 <Taneb> Hey, anyone here know the best way to get a C++11 <std::array> into Haskell
17:13:47 <Deewiant> Vector should be able to tell the GC that a given reference only needs a certain slice of the data
17:13:53 <elliott> more generally give up on binding C++ to haskell
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17:16:02 <nooodl> yeah, "V.enumFromN 1 1000000000" is crashing ghci but i don't know what i expected
17:16:10 <nooodl> i mean. that's a pretty big vector
17:16:37 <Bike> do you need a billion element vector for something
17:16:48 <Deewiant> That's N gigabytes where N is the type's size (so probably Int's size)
17:17:07 <nooodl> testing this binary search function!!
17:17:35 <Bike> don't you think four gigabytes is a bit much for testing
17:18:19 <nooodl> ghc thinks so at least
17:18:44 <Jafet> nooodl: "maxBound :: Int"
17:19:28 <Jafet> nooodl : maxBound : Int
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17:21:20 <nooodl> > (maxBound - minBound) :: Int
17:23:07 <tswett> Hi everyone hth. How's it going hth?
17:24:49 <tswett> Yesterday was the eighth hth.
17:26:07 <tswett> Now, to which URL should speaking post. Should it post to character/n/speak/? Seems like as good a URL as any.
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19:05:26 <Taneb> Trivia: the first track of every single album I've bought on its release day opened at number 2 in the UK singles chart
19:08:23 <Taneb> Hexham? More like MAX HEH
19:09:01 <Bike> it's always a barrel of laughs up in hexham
19:10:57 <Bike> are those octopodes who won't shut up about star trek
19:12:28 <Taneb> By the way, those two messages from me were completely unrelated
19:13:28 <impomatic> How can I search the esoteric logs?
19:15:09 <elliott> you need to rsync them + grep
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19:38:25 <impomatic> Hmmm... thanks. I only wondered the size of the Brainfuck Hello World I posted here...
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20:51:32 <oerjan> hm it seems impossible with haskell types to generalize Control.Lens.Iso.mapping to take a Setter instead of just a Functor instance
20:52:34 <oerjan> because the setter needs to be used at two different types
20:53:55 <lambdabot> (Functor f1, Functor f, Profunctor p) => AnIso s t a b -> p (f a) (f1 (f b)) -> p (f s) (f1 (f t))
20:54:09 <oerjan> ...if those two types have a common rank-2 expression you are halfway to Functor already :(
20:54:49 <elliott> it could take two setters :P
20:55:31 <oerjan> yeah but that would ruin the point of my investigation, which was why wasn't mapping defined as mappingOf mapped in the first place
20:55:48 <Taneb> mappingOfOf mapped mapped
20:55:50 <oerjan> with great generalization possibilities
20:55:58 <Taneb> Clearly the way to go
20:56:47 <elliott> oerjan: it doesn't have to be all the way to Functor because it only has to work with f/f1, right?
20:56:52 <elliott> you could make it work with GADTs and stuff
20:57:31 <oerjan> elliott: f is the functor in question, f1 is the usual lens choosable one
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20:58:13 <oerjan> it needs to map f a -> f s and f t -> f s
20:59:11 <oerjan> * (a -> s) -> (f a -> f s) and (t -> b) -> (f t -> f b)
20:59:35 <oerjan> the definition of mapping is essentially mapping (iso sa bt) = iso (fmap sa) (fmap bt)
21:01:15 <oerjan> and you want to replace fmap by setter %~
21:03:24 <oerjan> :t mapped %~ view swapped
21:03:25 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Swapped p) => f (p a b) -> f (p b a)
21:04:51 <oerjan> that gives you a Getter only
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21:05:46 <lambdabot> MonadReader b m => AReview s t a b -> m t
21:05:59 <lambdabot> Gettable f => AReview s t a b -> (t -> f t) -> b -> f b
21:07:03 <Taneb> > review _Just 10 >>= \x -> lift [x]
21:07:05 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Data.Maybe.Maybe b0'
21:08:12 <Taneb> :t review _Just >>= \x -> lift [x]
21:08:14 <lambdabot> (MonadTrans t, MonadReader b (t [])) => t [] (Maybe b)
21:08:24 <Taneb> > runReaderT (review _Just >>= \x -> lift [x]) 10
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21:09:42 <lambdabot> MonadReader b m => AReview s t a b -> m t
21:11:36 <oerjan> 01:32:54 <myname> could someone explain me why n-cycle clears with n > 1 is any better than 1-cycled in bf joust?
21:11:39 <oerjan> 01:35:24 <myname> i.e. i don't see the advantage of [-.] over [-].
21:12:24 <oerjan> it's because to win, you have to make the flag 0 for _two_ consecutive turns
21:12:39 <myname> oerjan: you do with [-].
21:13:21 <oerjan> the opponent may be changing the flag during the ] step
21:13:56 <Taneb> But in [-], if he does you just exit the loop
21:13:57 <oerjan> not unless he _also_ did it in the . step
21:14:06 <Taneb> In [-.], you start decrementing it again
21:14:57 <oerjan> in [-.], if you reach the ] you _know_ your last - didn't succeed, so you just start again.
21:15:09 <myname> well, i'd test something like [[-].] then
21:16:12 <oerjan> i'm not a bfjoust expert, but i expect all of which works best depends on the opponent's defence strategy
21:16:20 <Sgeo> Does this statement help?
21:16:22 <Sgeo> "If L is a language, f is a function L->Trustfuck, and g is the inverse of f (that is, a function Trustfuck->L), then g(",+[-:,+]!") is a compiler for L, not a compiler for Trustfuck."
21:17:09 <Taneb> Have I ever said that Trustfuck is ridiculous?
21:17:14 <Sgeo> Taneb, how so?
21:17:22 <oerjan> Sgeo: it makes no mathematical sense to call that an inverse
21:17:50 <Taneb> Sgeo, really, it's your offhand comments about the consequences of Trustfuck that are ridiculous rather than the language itself
21:17:56 <Taneb> Which I don't understand due to lack of effort
21:18:36 <oerjan> it does not give f(g(x)) the same semantics as x, obviously, which is the point of the statement of course
21:19:01 <Taneb> Why do you need to mention f at all
21:19:04 <oerjan> or well, neither is semantics-preserving.
21:20:18 <Sgeo> If the semantics of ",+[-:,+]!" is "be a compiler for the current language" not "be a compiler for Trustfuck"
21:20:25 <Sgeo> Does that... make it work?
21:20:34 <Sgeo> I think that's what I'm trying to get at
21:20:52 <oerjan> no, because the current language doesn't use those characters at all, potentially :P
21:26:16 <oerjan> and there my brain ran out of energy again.
21:26:41 <Sgeo> I don't know if I know an accurate description
21:26:47 <Sgeo> I should think about Trustfuck-- a bit
21:28:14 <Sgeo> Hmm, this is a thought:
21:28:55 <Sgeo> A compiler written in Trustfuck for a language L does not compile to Trustfuck before doing !, the way I've described
21:29:09 <Sgeo> It compiles to... something else
21:29:48 <Sgeo> A language similar to Trustfuck except a different meaning for !
21:30:01 <oerjan> i would suggest trying to give a semantics of each language that makes no reference to more fundamental languages existing.
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21:32:13 <oerjan> or maybe not more than two neighboring levels
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21:32:58 <Sgeo> If L is a language, let L' be a language that is identical to Trustfuck except that ! accepts and compiles L code instead of Trustfuck code.
21:33:17 <Sgeo> Wait, I think ! should never be stated to compile Trustfuck code.
21:34:00 <Sgeo> Except along the same vein, L''s ! doesn't really take L code, does it? Because if L has an equvalent to !, then ...
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22:00:07 <Sgeo> @hoogle runMaybeT
22:00:07 <lambdabot> Control.Monad.Trans.Maybe runMaybeT :: MaybeT m a -> m (Maybe a)
22:00:47 <Sgeo> erp, I wrote my code a bit backwards I think
22:01:10 <Sgeo> Ending up with a Maybe (IO ())
22:01:16 -!- kallisti_ has joined.
22:01:34 <Sgeo> @hoogle a (b c) -> b (a c)
22:01:35 <lambdabot> Data.Traversable sequenceA :: (Traversable t, Applicative f) => t (f a) -> f (t a)
22:01:35 <lambdabot> Data.Traversable sequence :: (Traversable t, Monad m) => t (m a) -> m (t a)
22:01:35 <lambdabot> Test.QuickCheck.Gen promote :: Monad m => m (Gen a) -> Gen (m a)
22:01:37 -!- kallisti1 has joined.
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22:04:40 <Sgeo> @hoogle sequenceM
22:04:53 <Sgeo> Is Maybe traversable?
22:05:05 <Taneb> > sequence $ Just "hello"
22:05:07 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[m0 a0]'
22:05:13 <Taneb> > Data.Traversable.sequence $ Just "hello"
22:05:15 <lambdabot> [Just 'h',Just 'e',Just 'l',Just 'l',Just 'o']
22:06:38 <Sgeo> Doesn't quite seem to be working for me
22:07:29 <Sgeo> () <$ T.sequence mSendIt
22:07:36 <Sgeo> I think I have just gone overboard
22:07:44 <Sgeo> Doing that instead of putting a return () at the end
22:07:48 <Taneb> I may be the first person to ever have compared Order of the Stick to the University of Birmingham
22:08:36 <elliott> Sgeo: that's Control.Monad.void
22:08:50 <lambdabot> Foreign.Marshal.Error void :: IO a -> IO ()
22:08:50 <lambdabot> Control.Monad void :: Functor f => f a -> f ()
22:09:32 <Sgeo> Pairs are a functor?
22:09:54 <Taneb> instance Functor ((,) a) where fmap f (a, b) = (a, f b)
22:10:11 <Taneb> If the first argument is a monoid I think they're a monad
22:10:43 <Taneb> instance Monoid a => Monad ((,) a) where return = (,) mempty; (a, b) >>= f = let (a', c) = f b in (a `mappend` a', c)
22:11:14 <monqy> Sgeo: there are lots of instances. sorta wack to say pairs "are" a functor.............. especially since in some cases it's partially applied pairs
22:11:18 <monqy> and in other cases
22:11:23 <monqy> it's certain sortsa pairs
22:11:30 <monqy> pairs with only one sorta thing in them
22:11:37 <Taneb> data Pair a = Pair a a
22:12:14 <Taneb> instance Functor Pair where fmap f (Pair a a) = Pair (f a) (f a)
22:12:39 <Taneb> Modulo stupid names that overlap
22:16:13 <Taneb> Sgeo, how's that IRC thingy you're doing going
22:16:39 <Sgeo> Some ugly parts
22:16:53 <Sgeo> And config stuff is hard-coded
22:16:58 <Sgeo> But it's meant to be a simple bot
22:17:31 <Taneb> Might make a bot that evaluates Piet
22:17:40 <Taneb> Rather than one written in piet
22:18:18 <Sgeo> http://hpaste.org/83768
22:22:23 <Sgeo> Just realized that there's some unneeded code there
22:22:28 <Arc_Koen> Sgeo: are you making an irc bot in piet?
22:22:35 <Sgeo> Just pretrend lines 25-26 don't exist
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22:53:40 <Phantom_Hoover> question of the day: what kind of sane person uses lowercase xi
22:54:40 <monqy> i see lowercase xi every so often
22:54:49 <monqy> but uppercase xi, now that's crazy
22:56:34 <elliott> uppercase xi is ok as long as it's not sans serif
22:56:48 <elliott> uppercase sans serif xi is the abomination unto nature
22:57:34 <elliott> well thankfully the greeks are fucking dead
22:57:37 <elliott> so you don't have to write greek any more
22:59:30 <Phantom_Hoover> you realise that in that case everyone will just write the normal alphabet in weird ways
22:59:32 <nooodl> you have to think of it in steps. ς → ζ → ξ
23:00:05 <Taneb> The greeks aren't dead, just economically oh no'd
23:00:12 <olsner> ah, you meant xi the greek letter? reminds me of an old calculus lecturer who used the same squiggle for every greek letter, ln and cos
23:00:29 <Taneb> olsner, sound awful
23:01:18 <olsner> not all bad though, the unreadable formulas does sort of force you to pay attention to what's being written and what it means
23:01:21 <nooodl> ς is just an s. ζ is just ς with a line above it. ξ is just ζ with a dent in it
23:02:04 <Phantom_Hoover> he writes beta as what is for all intents and purposes an ordinary b
23:03:23 <olsner> i.e. he uses the ordinary b instead of the latin b?
23:04:21 <Bike> Is return being in Monad rather than Functor a quirk?
23:04:37 <Taneb> It should be in Applicative if anywhere
23:04:42 <Taneb> Functors do NOT have return
23:05:06 <elliott> Monad is detached from the rest of the hierarchy for historical reasons
23:05:11 <Bike> Yes, but I want to know if this is a mess or something I'm misunderstanding.
23:05:20 <elliott> "pure" in Applicative is what return should be
23:05:30 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:05:35 <Bike> Since I thought mathematical functors mapped objects in addition to morphisms.
23:05:39 <Taneb> Bike, not all functors have an equivalent to return
23:05:48 <elliott> an object in Hask is a *type*
23:05:54 <elliott> and Functor models endofunctors (functors Hask -> Hask)
23:05:56 <Taneb> What's return :: a -> (Void, a)?
23:06:07 <elliott> so if you have a Functor instance f
23:06:15 <elliott> then f Int is mapping the object Int
23:06:21 <elliott> and fmap maps morphisms (functions)
23:06:35 <Bike> and fmap (Int -> Int) maps the morphism.
23:06:51 <elliott> i.e. a functor takes the morphism f : A -> B to F(f) : F(A) -> F(B), where F(X) is mapping the object X
23:07:00 <elliott> Bike: erm, that's not valid syntax, but sure
23:07:14 <elliott> ...in this case, a functor takes the morphism f :: Int -> String to fmap f :: F Int -> F String
23:07:35 <Bike> ok, that makes sense.
23:08:08 <elliott> (actually Functor models something ridiculous like functors mapping Hask to the subcategory of Hask where only types of the form (f a) are objects or such)
23:08:12 <elliott> (but that doesn't really matter)
23:08:24 <Bike> Sounds elegant.
23:10:08 <fungot> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
23:10:23 <Sgeo> erm, false alarm possibly
23:10:39 <monqy> you dont want to know
23:10:43 <Taneb> nooodl, notifying about Homestuck updates
23:10:45 <Bike> annoying s h a c h a f mostly?
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23:11:18 <nooodl> the new homestuck updates look really boring
23:11:24 <Taneb> Bike, nah, he's not on the ^list
23:11:47 <nooodl> by new i mean anything that happened in the past 1-2 years
23:11:59 <monqy> it sort of amazes me that people read homestuck
23:12:18 <Taneb> Although cf his HackEgo wisdom
23:12:55 <Fiora> the past 1-2 years have been pretty wonderful
23:13:07 <Fiora> though I guess still not the wonderfulness of act 5 and karkat arguing with himself
23:14:24 <Phantom_Hoover> the best of homestuck for me was when it was about the original 4
23:14:35 <Bike> shit on your desk
23:14:56 <Phantom_Hoover> hivebent was jut a chore for me since i really wanted to know e.g. where jade was going to land
23:15:08 <Fiora> I really do like the original 4 humans, yeah. I never really got into the alpha kids much
23:15:20 <Taneb> I quite like the Alpha kids
23:15:22 <Fiora> and jade is still my favorite is and john is still the most adorable dork and dave is still awesome
23:15:33 <Taneb> Jake's my favourite now
23:15:52 <monqy> nooodl: what have you started
23:16:01 <Fiora> but hivebent had such wonderful characters too. like karkat
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23:41:55 <Sgeo> wtf http://perl8.org/
23:42:05 <Sgeo> (Someone has perl8.org pointing to Scala)
23:42:21 <Bike> programming language jokes!
23:53:43 <tromp_> better than www.perl5.org
23:54:19 <Sgeo> How much cheating would be acceptable in a Feather-like language?
23:55:11 <monqy> not only may you not cheat but you must do community service to make up for all the stupid time travel jokes you're causing
23:58:22 <Sgeo> Compiled languages often have a bootstrap process, in which, say, a compiler for L written in L is compiled using a compiler for L written in another language. Can this process be made a part of the language somehow?
23:59:29 <olsner> just write the compiler in L, like all those C compilers written in C
23:59:34 <Bike> what kind of self-respecting language acknowledges other languages' existence? that sounds like step one down a path to interoperability son
00:00:08 <Bike> olsner: the point being you need something to start it off, a compiler for L when there is no compiler for L presently.
00:01:36 <Sgeo> I _know_ some Smalltalker has done something imminently relevant to this discussion and to Feather
00:02:02 <Bike> know as in you are guessing so, or know as in you remember somebody doing so?
00:02:20 <Bike> also: if on this path you happen to find a good model of code serialization (not compilation) you should let me know about it
00:03:16 <Sgeo> Know as in I remember someone doing so, although I guess the actual relevance of the project is questionable
00:03:27 <Sgeo> I saw source code that started out in one language and turned into another
00:03:40 <Bike> isn't that just a compiler.
00:03:55 <Bike> Oh, you mean like within a source?
00:04:03 <Sgeo> I guess that seems a bit like Forth
00:04:07 <Sgeo> But it wasn't Forth
00:04:25 <Bike> I suppose it depends on what you mean by "language".
00:04:41 <Bike> I mean if you write enough functions is that a language, if you write macros does that make it a language, if you alter the parser...
00:05:09 <Sgeo> At the very least the parser changed, but I think it was more fundamental than that
00:05:25 <monqy> that sounds ugly and gross
00:07:14 <Bike> I guess you could also incrementally alter the way the compiler works.
00:07:20 <Sgeo> http://piumarta.com/software/maru/maru-2.4/test-pepsi.l
00:07:43 <tromp_> you can change binary lambda calculus into binary combinatory logic within 125 bits, but it all looks like 0s and 1s:-(
00:07:51 <Bike> 'course it's piumarta
00:08:06 <Sgeo> http://www.dynamic-languages-symposium.org/dls-06/program/media/IanPiumarta_2006_OpenExtensibleDynamicProgrammingSystems_Dls.pdf
00:08:16 <Bike> yeah one of his papers
00:08:25 <Sgeo> I don't get the "'course it's piumarta"
00:08:34 <elliott> because piumarta does all this stuff
00:08:41 <Bike> uhhhhh basically one of his papers had apply and eval as functions with definable multimethods
00:09:03 <Bike> you should look up maru if you haven't
00:09:07 <elliott> the vpri stuff he does does things like
00:09:13 <elliott> pasting in the diagram of a tcp packet from the rfc directly
00:09:20 <elliott> and it gives you a parser for them
00:09:26 <Sgeo> Ok that's awesome.
00:09:26 <elliott> and that's how they define the packet structure
00:09:41 <Sgeo> Going to go read this presentation
00:13:26 <Bike> http://piumarta.com/software/cola/ welp
00:13:46 <monqy> is there a theme here
00:13:49 <Bike> guess he's thirsty
00:13:59 <Bike> maru is named after some cat though
00:16:09 <Sgeo> "Pepsi -- not quite The Real Thing
00:17:04 <Sgeo> "(a white-paper advocating widespread, unreasonable behaviour)
00:17:58 <Sgeo> I think ais523 would like this
00:20:23 <Sgeo> Maybe I'll understand this COLA stuff if I read the whitepaper
00:20:24 <Sgeo> Reading it now
00:20:35 <Bike> and lo was sgeo drowned in sodas
00:24:43 <nooga> i feel like writing a lightweight graph-oriented p2p distributed database
00:25:14 <nooga> but then i think about network programming and I'm like NO
00:26:09 <Sgeo> "(Readers under the age of 35, or those never significantly exposed
00:26:10 <Sgeo> to an anglo-saxon culture, might have trouble figuring this one out.)"
00:26:22 <Sgeo> Was there some sort of ad campaign where Pepsi was called fake?
00:26:57 <Bike> new coke I think
00:27:10 <Bike> scandal of the century
00:27:17 <Taneb> Personally I prefer Fentimans
00:27:23 <Taneb> The cola of Hexham
00:27:39 <Vorpal> I have a dire warning: If anyone here ever considers setting up WPA2 Enterprise at home, think again. The radius server configuration almost broke my mind.
00:28:23 <Vorpal> And don't talk to me about connecting windows clients to it.
00:28:26 <Gregor> Vorpal Enterprises Inc LLC GmbH is foiled once again.
00:28:38 <Vorpal> Gregor, you forgot A/S and AB
00:28:52 <elliott> HHI superiority remains unsurpassed
00:29:25 <Gregor> Vorpal: LLC means the same as Ltd
00:29:29 <Gregor> Of course, so does GmbH...
00:29:44 <Gregor> But LLC more literally does since they're in the same language X-D
00:29:56 <Vorpal> Gregor, didn't know that, hm
00:30:05 <Vorpal> also SSL/TLS certificate infrastructure is weird
00:30:07 <Taneb> My various nicks spell out the first three letters of my real name
00:31:04 -!- Taneb has changed nick to hendiadys.
00:31:26 <Vorpal> Gregor, also I discovered two amusing bugs with this premium segment netgear router/AP
00:31:55 <Gregor> hendiadys: Also free: Surprised
00:32:13 <Vorpal> Gregor, both are related to not having the IP 192.168.1.1. Stuff breaks. For a start, RADIUS breaks, since it sends that IP hard coded in the RADIUS requests. Also it doesn't listen to telnet if that IP is not used.
00:32:26 <Sgeo> This is going to give me a headache, isn't it?
00:32:27 <Sgeo> "Messaging is therefore self-describing (the semantics of sending messages to objects are
00:32:27 <Sgeo> described and implemented by sending messages to objects)."
00:32:28 <Gregor> Vorpal: Is there a REASON you wanted Enterprise at home?
00:33:11 <Bike> Sgeo: just call it "metacircularity" and you'll sound smart without having to get it
00:33:14 <Vorpal> Gregor, because I could? And I'm paranoid and like the idea of using certificates to limit who can connect, after all I use keys-only for ssh
00:35:23 <Sgeo> Maybe I'll try reading it another day
00:35:28 <Vorpal> Gregor, also hm, think of the possibilities with granting temporary access to guests, (using EAP-TTLS-MSCHAPv2 or PEAP obviously, using EAP-TLS would be far too annoying for that). Hey I could design a web interface for that
00:35:52 <Gregor> “Because I could” → nope
00:36:14 <Vorpal> Gregor, well, a lot of the stuff that happens in this channel is "because I could"
00:36:28 <Gregor> Vorpal: No, I mean, you clearly couldN'T ;)
00:36:44 <Vorpal> Gregor, well I did manage in the end, I just suggest it wasn't worth the effort
00:36:56 <Vorpal> and probably will result in a lot of frustration
00:37:01 <Gregor> OK, I thought you'd tried and given up.
00:37:07 <Gregor> I don't think you said you got it working X-D
00:37:11 <Vorpal> Gregor, I said it *almost* broke my mind
00:37:27 <Gregor> In no way does that suggest whether you made it work or not.
00:37:35 <Vorpal> Gregor, also it is an axiom that I do not give up until my mind is broken
00:37:45 <Gregor> Right, that I didn't know X-D
00:37:56 <Vorpal> Gregor, because I consider giving up as my mind breaking
00:38:20 <Vorpal> unless I can prove it impossible of course, which it clearly isn't in this case, since it is being used all over the place
00:38:31 <Gregor> I try to keep my mind unbroken.
00:38:34 <Gregor> So I give up before that point.
00:40:13 <Vorpal> Gregor, anyway, the most annoying thing was probably how well Microsoft hid the checkbox for "do not prepend the computer name to the user name you enter in a totally different part of the property-dialog box tree thingy"
00:41:06 <Vorpal> at least OS X didn't really hide the configuration, it was in a logical place, just not shown on initial connection attempt
00:41:43 <Gregor> So, you can have temporary guests so long as they go through some insanely complicated configuration process first?
00:42:37 <Vorpal> Gregor, it isn't very complicated on the client side on linux or android though
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00:42:46 <Vorpal> really simple there really
00:43:07 <Vorpal> Gregor, but I have no idea why microsoft wanted to make it more complex than required
00:44:42 <Vorpal> Gregor, actually, unless you use pattern lock or higher (that is, pin code or password), you can't seem to import the CA certificate of the RADIUS server on Android into the certificate store.
00:44:53 <Vorpal> so I guess that could potentially count as complicated on Android
00:45:10 <Vorpal> not sure what sort of person wouldn't use at least pattern lock though
00:45:41 <Vorpal> (nor can I imagine someone using password to unlock the screen of their phone, since the screen timeout is so short on a phone)
00:46:14 <Gregor> I don't use a pattern lock.
00:46:19 <Gregor> My phone doesn't lock.
00:46:39 <Vorpal> well I guess I found such an user then
00:46:52 <Vorpal> I personally use pattern lock
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01:13:24 <oerjan> <Sgeo> How much cheating would be acceptable in a Feather-like language? <-- i would think it is his unwillingness to cheat that makes ais523 crazy thinking about feather. otoh i doubt he would care about cheating that had no _observable_ effect.
01:15:15 <Sgeo> Does "results in the language actually being able to run on a computer" count as an observable effect?
01:16:13 <Bike> You mean the cheat is that it exists?
01:16:31 <elliott> if you think it is inherently not you don't understand it...
01:17:32 <Sgeo> '<ais523> I don't think a) is solvable, while remaining computable, but you can fake it using retroactive changes
01:18:05 <Bike> well, there you go, he's obviously fine with faking it! as long as it doesn't result in a parade of dumb jokes
01:19:01 <monqy> dont forget the 2% community service. parade of dumb jokes is inevitable haven't you seen them
01:20:40 <Bike> `quote Bike.*joke
01:20:47 <HackEgo> 888) <Bike> i don't even know anything about feather and i'm getting sick of the time travel jokes
01:20:56 <Bike> wait is that really the command
01:32:50 <zzo38> I don't like daylight saving time. How many other people in here hate daylight saving time?
01:36:13 <zzo38> Do you mean spacetime?
01:36:51 <Bike> no, i mean time
01:40:07 <monqy> i hate time in general but especially daylight savings time. the worst time.
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01:48:20 <Bike> Are the papers mentioned in hoogle's readme interesting?
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02:15:49 <Sgeo> I'm going to go watch some Farscape per Phantom_Hoover's suggestion.
02:17:30 <Phantom_Hoover> yesssss oh shit does this mean i have to watch that thing
02:17:48 <Sgeo> On the other hand, "that thing" is only 12 30-minute episodes.
02:18:29 <Sgeo> Also, even if it seems not interesting for the first few episodes, keep with it. Telling you how long to keep with it would be spoily
02:18:34 <Sgeo> Puella Magi Madoka Magica
02:19:52 <Phantom_Hoover> i think Fiora already spoiled ~the twist~ but also i have since forgotten what it is
02:20:38 <Sgeo> Oh hey Farscape's on Hulu :D
02:21:29 <tswett> I wonder if the calculus of constructions with the axiom of choice would be equivalent to ZFC.
02:22:50 <tswett> How far could you get in defining V in the CoC? Start by defining a well-ordering.
02:23:00 <Phantom_Hoover> i nearly gave up when the resolution inexplicably dropped to the size of a postage stamp in season 3
02:23:24 <monqy> what's this "farscape" thing is it good
02:23:42 <pikhq> Mahō Shōjo Madoka Magika is actually fairly good, though it's very not-obvious at the start.
02:23:47 <tswett> Then, for each well-ordering n, say that V_n is any set of elements of V_m, where m < n, and if m and m' are isomorphic, then it contains the same elements of V_m as of V_m'.
02:24:20 * Bike blinks at the macrons. hoighty-toighty
02:24:24 <tswett> I doubt you can actually write that definition in CoC.
02:24:26 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's only slightly spoilery to say that it's a deconstruction.
02:24:39 <pikhq> Bike: I romanize stuff right. :P
02:24:49 <tswett> Sgeo: are you aware of any realistic fantastical anime?
02:24:50 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, it's the SG-1 guy!
02:24:54 <Bike> mahou shoujou madouka magika
02:25:03 <tswett> Sgeo: more realistic than the Fullmetal Alchemists, but it's allowed to be more fantastical as well. Or less.
02:25:14 <Sgeo> I only watched one episode of FMA
02:25:27 <pikhq> Bike: Uh, only the first two "o"s are long.
02:25:28 <tswett> I hope it was of the 03 and not the 09.
02:25:35 <pikhq> Bike: "Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magika"
02:25:36 <Sgeo> tswett, I don't know
02:25:40 <Bike> pikhq: you doun't say
02:26:12 <tswett> Realistic in the sense that there aren't very many things that obviously wouldn't have happened if it weren't necessary for the story.
02:26:24 <Fiora> realistic/down-to-earth fantasy..? hmm
02:26:35 <Bike> what a definition.
02:26:50 <tswett> Yeah, I dunno what the best word would be.
02:27:00 <Bike> You should watch Haibane Renmei. (Hauiubauneu Reunmeuiu)
02:27:03 <tswett> I watched two episodes of Smallville; it seems to be a good antiexample of what I'm talking about.
02:27:29 <monqy> what's this "Hauiubauneu Reunmeuiu" thing is it good
02:27:34 <Fiora> I guess when I think of "realistic" anime with fantastical elements I think of things like patlabor
02:27:39 <Bike> it's pretty good
02:27:42 <tswett> A tornado strikes, and four people are almost killed. It just so happens that all four people are major characters in the story.
02:27:48 <Bike> also it's by yoshitoshi abe if you like that guy
02:28:09 <Bike> Chinese cartoons.
02:28:20 <tswett> Clark Kent's space ship takes off and crash lands itself in a corn field. I guess it's designed so that if there's no pilot inside, it just flies randomly.
02:28:23 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, "Commander Kryten"
02:28:29 <zzo38> monqy: Anime is short for animation
02:28:38 <monqy> zzo38: ah, that makes sense
02:28:51 <tswett> That little chip thingy is essential to the ship's functioning. So they put it on the exterior of the ship with nothing holding it down.
02:28:52 <Bike> tswett: that would be pretty entertaining in the real world, you must admit
02:28:59 <Sgeo> Farscape is a combination of every single SF show ever, isnt it?
02:29:19 <Bike> Is it a combination of Ultraviolet and Aeon whatever too
02:29:29 <monqy> is farscape an anime
02:29:32 <Bike> Flux apparently
02:29:35 <Sgeo> Actors from SG-1, a name from Red Dwarf
02:29:40 <Bike> It's apparently every anime, monqy.
02:29:48 <monqy> hm, is that good or bad
02:29:49 <Bike> probably would save us all a lot of time to watch it really
02:29:50 <Sgeo> (yes I know the actors went from Farscape -> SG-1)
02:29:55 <Sgeo> It still feels weird
02:29:55 <monqy> i've heard some weird things about anime
02:30:08 <monqy> things you wouldn't want to tell a child to know
02:30:11 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how the name Sgeo is having trouble with is that of the ordinary american human
02:30:30 <Bike> I've heard that if you call yourself kawaii in a mirror three times it becomes true, horribly true.
02:31:04 <tswett> I've heard that most anime is made in Japan.
02:32:24 <Phantom_Hoover> i've heard it's made by cuttlefish as part of a top-secret experiment to teach them a trade skill
02:32:38 <Fiora> That would explain Ika Musume
02:33:01 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUwQwtDpdE4 animes
02:35:38 <Bike> I've never seen any Vietnamese TV. Maybe it's good.
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02:55:31 <zzo38> Will ISE WebPACK run on a VM running CentOS and which is not connected to the internet?
02:58:14 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I'll re-watch tomorrow. Kind of annoying trying to watch with TV in background, can't hear what aliens are saying
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03:03:00 <tswett> All right, I'm watching Ha-Re.
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03:35:15 <zzo38> I think the TOGA computer could be implemented using only two 7400 series ICs.
03:35:44 <zzo38> (This is not including the ROM, RAM, and clock, but those aren't a part of the CPU)
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03:41:02 <elliott> ion: I like this attitude to impurity
03:41:27 <ion> bike: Even worse
03:41:49 <Bike> Is this a red cow thing
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04:01:12 <zzo38> Specifically 74175 and 74161
04:04:41 <ais523> zzo38: you could use a 555 (and a few passive linear components) for the clock, which isn't 7400 series but is carried by the same sort of distributors
04:06:41 <zzo38> ais523: OK, I suppose it can.
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04:48:36 <Sgeo> What's the difference between maru and cola?
04:59:05 <Sgeo> :t (a -> b) -> (b -> a) -> IORef a -> IORef b
04:59:20 <Sgeo> @hoogle (a -> b) -> (b -> a) -> IORef a -> IORef b
04:59:21 <lambdabot> Prelude until :: (a -> Bool) -> (a -> a) -> a -> a
04:59:21 <lambdabot> Prelude (.) :: (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c
04:59:21 <lambdabot> Data.Function (.) :: (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c
05:13:40 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/invariant
05:15:09 <Sgeo> If there was a way to get notified when an IORef changed, could IORef be made invariant?
05:15:16 <Bike> wow, the hackage page on IO is huge
05:15:24 <ais523> Bike: that shouldn't really be surprising
05:15:44 <Bike> it's not, but it's still the biggest page i've seen on hackage
05:15:46 <ais523> basically because anything that interacts with system calls has to be in IO, and there are a lot of system calls
05:15:57 <ais523> and a lot of sugar-around-system-calls, too
05:16:02 <Bike> "File and directory names are values of type String, whose precise meaning is operating system dependen" oh boy
05:16:39 <lambdabot> System.FilePath.Windows (</>) :: FilePath -> FilePath -> FilePath
05:16:39 <lambdabot> System.FilePath.Posix (</>) :: FilePath -> FilePath -> FilePath
05:16:54 <ais523> hmm… Cyrillic is a lot easier to read if your default interpretation of letters is as Greek
05:17:00 <ais523> rather than as English
05:17:06 <ais523> seems to be a lot of inspiration from there
05:17:13 <Bike> cyrillic developed out of greek and english developed out of latin
05:17:20 <ais523> Bike: for aimake2 I invented an OS-independent filename format
05:17:42 <elliott> Bike: FilePath is broke as hell :(
05:18:07 <ais523> for relative paths, it's dir/dir/dir/dir/filename, for absolute paths, it's root/dir/dir/dir/dir/dir/filename, there's a boolean saying whether it's relative or absolute, and any slashes, colons, and backslashes in the components are escaped with backslashes
05:18:17 <Sgeo> ais523, did you look at cola and maru?
05:18:20 <ais523> (colons are escaped so that colon can be used as an end-of-string marker when embedding them in longer strings)
05:18:28 <ais523> cola is a sort of soft drink, isn't it?
05:18:31 <ais523> but I don't know what maru is
05:18:39 <Bike> @google maru cat
05:18:41 <lambdabot> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uDuls5TyNE
05:19:02 <Sgeo> ais523, Cola: http://piumarta.com/software/cola/
05:19:17 <Sgeo> Maru: http://piumarta.com/software/maru/
05:19:36 <ais523> Sgeo: it's sort-of like you're doing that thing zzo38 does where you talk about something out of context, without indications of what it is and why other people should be interested in it
05:19:47 <ais523> and tend to not get a response for that reason
05:20:32 <Sgeo> ais523, it vaguely reminds me of your motivations for Feather. Cola is supposed to be completely self-describing
05:20:42 <Sgeo> "is completely self-describing (from the metal, or even FPGA gates, up) exposing all aspects of its implementation for inspection and incremental modification;"
05:20:57 <Bike> btw i think i'm far enough along in lyah to write a monad tutorial
05:22:12 <ais523> Sgeo: that wasn't really the motivation for Feather, directly, or at least it's only half of it
05:22:29 <ais523> the point of Feather is that it has to not require a huge amount of complex structure to accomplish that
05:22:45 <Bike> oh, maru is tiny
05:22:50 <ais523> i.e. all the complexity should be added on lata
05:22:56 <Bike> it's like what, a few pages of C and then three of itself?
05:23:09 <ais523> hmm, the pages of C disappoint me
05:23:47 <Bike> Anyway Another Haskell Question: Why does, say, digitToInt throw an exception instead of return a Maybe Int or what have you?
05:24:24 <Sgeo> Bike, whenever you have questions of that sort, where a different meaning of a function or whatever would make more sense, it's probably "idiotic historical reason"
05:24:33 <ais523> hmm, maru just looks to me like yet another lisp
05:24:45 <ais523> the interest seems to be the fact that it has a self-hosted compiler
05:24:54 <ais523> which is true of basically every functional language in existence
05:24:59 <Bike> Sgeo: I try not to assume sad things.
05:25:23 <ais523> even brainfuck has a self-hosted compiler
05:25:33 <Bike> Plus there could be other reasons.
05:25:52 <Bike> Like, should there be an Error monad you can stuff whatever information into? Where would you use that and not Maybe? Bla bla.
05:26:21 <ais523> elliott: btw, is EitherT possible as a monad transformer, or doesn't it make sense?
05:27:01 <ais523> I still don't have a good intuitive model of what a monad transformer actually is/does
05:28:11 <zzo38> A monad transformer makes a new monad from some other monad, by homomorphism, I think, isn't it?
05:28:25 <zzo38> There is EitherT monad transformer, in some package
05:28:48 <ais523> hmm, so I guess it does make sense
05:29:05 <elliott> ais523: EitherT exists, sure
05:29:15 <Bike> does that answer my question in a way i don't see
05:29:30 <elliott> Bike: anyway as a common lisper you should be accustomed to things being stupid because people were idiots once
05:29:35 <elliott> your whole language is an example
05:30:02 <ais523> oh yeah, EitherT makes sense because it's equivalent to (and likely implemented as) manually packing and unpacking an either at every >>= and return
05:30:05 <Bike> did lisp kill your parents or something, also
05:30:13 <elliott> how did you discover my secret
05:30:13 <zzo38> Maybe can be like Either ()
05:30:21 <Bike> a doodyheaded orphan
05:30:25 <Bike> you're truly a scoundrel, sir
05:30:38 <ais523> elliott: btw is it wrong that in OCaml, I use List as Maybe for nicer syntax and better library support?
05:30:54 <elliott> (ocaml also killed my parents)
05:31:06 <zzo38> There ought to be Alternative and MonadPlus for Either x, too, if x is Monoid; but, there isn't.
05:31:48 <Sgeo> I've heard that mp4 or is it mp5 is nice?
05:31:56 <Sgeo> Or.. whatever the macro-y thing for OCaml is
05:33:06 <Bike> camlp4, i guess
05:33:24 <Bike> http://www.podval.org/~sds/ocaml-sucks.html i really shouldn't google things
05:34:16 <Bike> i should just live in a box, in connecticut.
05:34:20 <elliott> i read that page once and thought it was silly and went up to the enclosing directory and saw a link to esr's "Anti-Idiotarian Manifesto" and then I decided to ignore everything they say forever
05:34:38 <elliott> well half silly and half obviously dumb things
05:34:42 <elliott> er as in obviously dumb about ocaml
05:34:45 <elliott> (this is because ocaml is dumb)
05:34:47 <Bike> btw esr came by #lisp the other day
05:34:59 <Bike> he was convinced to use python instead
05:35:19 <ais523> and were they trying to convince him to use lisp, or to not use lisp?
05:35:44 <Bike> oh, he wanted to make some python thingamajig faster and he said something about liking lisp back when he was an undergrad bla bla bla
05:36:20 <ais523> elliott: Haskell is the Java of functional programming languages, it lives too many levels of abstractions up despite that being technically correct
05:36:20 <Bike> "Additionally, functions take a fixed number of arguments, so, to multiply three numbers, you have to call Int64.mul twice."
05:36:52 <Sgeo> varargs are nice, but I wouldn't really use * as a crowning example
05:36:56 <Sgeo> I would use lift.
05:36:56 <elliott> ais523: random FUD nonsense is the IRC statements of ais523?
05:36:57 <ais523> Bike: and to multiply an arbitrary number of numbers, you use fold
05:37:12 <ais523> elliott: I'm just trying to be as inflammatory as you, but I'm not very good at it :(
05:37:15 <elliott> I like this "No Polymorphism" section which amounts to "the compiler can't infer rank-2 types"
05:37:23 <elliott> ais523: well the trick is you just say things suck
05:37:26 <elliott> people can figure out why for themselves
05:37:52 <Bike> i just like the horror i'm hearing in the voice
05:37:57 <Bike> you have to call the function TWICE
05:38:28 <ais523> in practice it's hard to implement a varargs multiplication that doesn't operate internally via splitting it into separate multiplications
05:38:56 <ais523> "higher order functions taking higher order functions as arguments": couldn't he just say "third order functions"?
05:39:18 <ais523> that's like saying "numbers greater than 1, and by more than 1!"
05:40:06 <elliott> This is a very powerful tool, should be easily implemented as a Lisp macro using DESTRUCTURING-BIND.
05:40:12 <elliott> this is the most smug lisp weenie page ever
05:40:58 <ais523> some of the things he lists as disadvantages, such as inability to redefine the internals of a module out underneath it, are probably not actually disadvantages
05:41:48 * Sgeo would consider that a disadvantage...
05:42:06 <Bike> you can't definedly do it in cl anyway `-`
05:42:10 <Sgeo> Or... hmm, maybe allow modules to define points at which internals are allowed to be redefined?
05:42:51 <zzo38> Perhaps it would be good, to allow modules to define the point at which internals are allowed to be redefined, possibly.
05:43:02 <zzo38> It might help a few things, possibly?
05:43:24 <ais523> hmm, why is "Assembly" written in a fixed-width font? I can sort-of see that for the names of other languages
05:43:37 <Bike> or just define defineable things you can piggy back your own behavior on, like typeclasses or generics
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05:49:56 <Sgeo> elliott, apparently IO (IORef a) is a monad
05:50:57 * Sgeo goes to read http://blog.ezyang.com/2011/06/the-iva-monad/
05:54:12 <zzo38> But fmap runs I/O actions so it doesn't seem a functor?
05:55:01 <zzo38> Actually, perhaps that is OK, because it only does readIORef and newIORef
05:55:11 <zzo38> It never writes them, so it is OK, I guess
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05:57:07 <zzo38> Actually, no, I don't think so, since other things could still access the IORef
05:57:51 <zzo38> And to compare them
05:58:18 <zzo38> Meaning that fmap id = id doesn't hold because it is a different IORef, so won't be equal
05:59:17 <zzo38> Therefore it isn't a monad
06:00:03 <Sgeo> The value inside the IORef would be the same though
06:00:50 <zzo38> But other things can still write to IORef and check if one is equal to another
06:01:32 <zzo38> (I am talking about the "R" monad which they defined)
06:11:51 <zzo38> do { a <- runR r; b <- runR (id <$> r); print (a == b); } won't be equal even if do { a <- runR r; b <- runR r; print (a == b); } is (although that too might be unequal, but it might be equal, too; but the first one is unequal regardless of if the second one is equal or unequal)
06:13:00 <zzo38> But there is read-only IORef types, specifically (CoYoneda IORef)
06:15:38 <Sgeo> I have no idea waht CoYoneda is
06:15:56 <Bike> @hoogle CoYoneda
06:16:16 <Bike> good name though
06:16:27 <Bike> let's just name everything after that guy.
06:17:04 <zzo38> It is the left Yoneda lemma
06:17:47 <oerjan> <Bike> Anyway Another Haskell Question: Why does, say, digitToInt throw an exception instead of return a Maybe Int or what have you? <-- digitToInt is mainly intended to use with readInt, which takes a separate function to test whether the digit is in range.
06:18:45 <zzo38> CoYoneda :: forall f x y. (x -> y) -> f x -> CoYoneda f y; is I think, its definition
06:19:19 <zzo38> edwardk has called it Yoneda, but he also called the right Yoneda lemma also Yoneda, which causes confusion.
06:22:23 <zzo38> You cannot write to the IORef in CoYoneda IORef because the type which it stores cannot be known.
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06:23:43 <zzo38> But you can read it by readCoYonedaIORef (CoYoneda x y) = x <$> readIORef y;
06:26:16 <oerjan> `fetch http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/emmental/ul.emm
06:27:01 * oerjan swats HackEgo -----###
06:27:34 <HackEgo> 2013-03-10 06:27:33 URL:http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/emmental/ul.emm [16417/16417] -> "ul.emm" [1]
06:28:46 <oerjan> `emmental -f ul.emm -e ((Ho hum)!:aSS)(Ho hum)!:aSS
06:28:47 <HackEgo> emmental: emmental.hs:42:1-56: Non-exhaustive patterns in function pop
06:30:37 <oerjan> `run emmental -f ul.emm -e '((Ho hum)!:aSS)(Ho hum)!:aSS'
06:30:40 <HackEgo> ((Ho hum)!:aSS)(Ho hum)!:aSS
06:33:02 <oerjan> `run emmental -f ul.emm -e '(0)S((0)(1))(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^'
06:33:26 <oerjan> there's a possibility it's too slow for that.
06:34:17 <oerjan> `run emmental -f ul.emm -e '(0)S((0)('"\n"'))(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^'
06:35:08 <oerjan> `run echo -f ul.emm -e '(0)S((0)('"\n"'))(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^'
06:35:09 <HackEgo> -f ul.emm -e (0)S((0)(\n))(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
06:35:19 <oerjan> oh it's not an actual newline
06:36:34 <oerjan> `run echo -f ul.emm -e $(echo '(()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:('; echo '/)S^):^')
06:36:35 <HackEgo> -f ul.emm -e (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:( /)S^):^
06:36:47 <oerjan> `run echo -f ul.emm -e "$(echo '(()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:('; echo '/)S^):^')"
06:36:49 <HackEgo> -f ul.emm -e (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:( \ /)S^):^
06:36:59 <oerjan> `run emmental -f ul.emm -e "$(echo '(()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:('; echo '/)S^):^')"
06:37:41 <oerjan> `run emmental -f ul.emm -e "$(echo '(()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:('; echo '/)S^):^')" | head -5
06:38:19 <oerjan> it worked on my computer :(
06:39:32 <oerjan> `run emmental -f ul.emm -e "$(echo '((y'; echo ')S:^):^')" | head -5
06:40:27 <oerjan> `run emmental -f ul.emm -e '(:aSS):aSS' # This worked a moment ago
06:41:13 <oerjan> `run emmental -f ul.emm -e "$(echo '((y'; echo '):*:*:*S')"
06:41:28 <oerjan> `run echo -f ul.emm -e "$(echo '((y'; echo '):*:*:*S')"
06:41:29 <HackEgo> -f ul.emm -e ((y \ ):*:*:*S
06:41:39 <oerjan> `run echo -f ul.emm -e "$(echo '(y'; echo '):*:*:*S')"
06:41:41 <HackEgo> -f ul.emm -e (y \ ):*:*:*S
06:41:48 <oerjan> `run emmental -f ul.emm -e "$(echo '(y'; echo '):*:*:*S')"
06:41:52 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
06:42:31 <oerjan> well no use trying anything bigger :P
06:43:58 <oerjan> my underload implementation in emmental is slow!
06:44:45 <Jafet> Is it being too fast
06:44:49 <oerjan> which is expected, really - it optimizes for minimal number of instructions and reserved symbols, not speed.
06:45:13 <HackEgo> ###1-1111-1#11#1-! \ ###1-1111-1#11##1##1--1--! \ ###1-1111-1 #1#11-11 # ! \ ###1-1111-1 ####1-11-11- #1 ! \ ###1-1111-1 ##1##1--11- #11 ! \ ###1-1111-1 #1#1##1--11- #11##1-1- ! \ ###1-1111-1 #1##1--111 #1##1-- ! \ ###1-1111-1 ###1#11-1-1- #111111 ! \ # \ ###1-1111-1 \ ######1###1###1###1##1###1###1##1 ###1##1####1##1#1##1##1#1 \ ####1##
06:45:24 <oerjan> (and i suspect the emmental interpreter isn't optimal either.)
06:45:31 <Sgeo> I just read some blatantly false documentation on Hackag
06:45:38 <Jafet> `file bin/emmental
06:45:41 <HackEgo> bin/emmental: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, not stripped
06:45:58 <oerjan> oh "minimal number of instructions" is "minimal number of _different_ instructions".
06:45:58 <Sgeo> (And by blatantly false I mean it says it returns a True or False when neither is in sight in the type)
06:46:05 <Bike> can I see, sgeo?
06:46:19 <Sgeo> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/IfElse/0.85/doc/html/Control-Monad-IfElse.html
06:46:38 <HackEgo> src/emmental.hs: UTF-8 Unicode English text
06:46:46 <oerjan> Jafet: you might try that.
06:46:53 <Bike> these docs seem just kind of bad
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06:47:17 <Bike> (also isn't cond just guards or)
06:47:34 <Bike> oh, a list, duh
06:47:58 <Jafet> `url src/emmental.hs
06:48:02 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/src/emmental.hs
06:49:16 <Jafet> Authored by Ørjan Johansen.
06:49:32 <Sgeo> https://github.com/mmirman/ImperativeHaskell/blob/master/Main.hs
06:50:50 <Sgeo> http://kormacode.blogspot.com/2011/11/c-style-haskell_10.html
06:51:36 <lambdabot> Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
06:54:55 <oerjan> Jafet: um the Emmental interpreter is cpressey's, i just modified it a little to make it useable on HackEgo.
06:55:11 <Bike> elliott: yes the "..." was the lack of sound of me imagining slapping my forehead.
06:55:30 <Sgeo> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/simple-observer/0.0.1/doc/html/src/Control-Observer-Synchronous.html
06:55:33 <Bike> but: is there a point to that behind syntactic convenience
06:55:41 <elliott> well it e.g. matches the order of ($), (<$>)
06:55:46 <Sgeo> Why does this use MVar instead of... TVars or IORefs?
06:55:58 <oerjan> you may find more at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Emmental#Computability_class
06:56:01 <elliott> are you just going to go through random packages on haskell and ask us why they're wrong all day....
06:56:31 <Bike> sgeo could become a masked haskell vigilante
06:56:59 <elliott> oerjan: "Haskell program" is a 404 HTH HAND
06:57:09 <Bike> a shuriken strikes above my head. "you don't need a lambda there!" it is the Mask
06:57:23 <Bike> maskell? work with me sgeo
06:57:51 <elliott> oerjan: "By the necessities of this kind of Emmental programming, 10 byte values have been reserved for the interpreter's internal use. These are all non-printable control codes." pfft, you should have taken the opportunity to use []<>
06:57:52 <Jafet> The masked raskell
06:58:24 <oerjan> elliott: try now, i somehow switche Unl and Emm in the filename :P
06:58:54 <elliott> has an encoding problem, though
06:59:10 <elliott> - By Ørjan Johansen, February-March 2013.
06:59:19 <elliott> possibly IE manages to guess the right encoding there.
06:59:36 <elliott> yes but your server is not transmitting that fat
06:59:46 <elliott> (and hence it's failing to display the non-ascii utf-8 in my browser)
06:59:47 <Sgeo> I do not understand OI at all
07:00:07 <elliott> also: lens and a license that actually exists? and type signatures??? the enterprisey age of oerjan begins
07:00:10 <Bike> that is a fantastic name, assuming it's some kind of opposite of IO
07:00:26 <Sgeo> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/oi/0.2.1.0/doc/html/Data-OI.html
07:00:37 <Bike> and by fantastic i mean laughing for a few minuts straight followed by ramming my head into a wall in pained desperation
07:00:45 <Bike> it hurts sgeo. it really hurts
07:01:07 <elliott> as I understand it OI doesn't work.
07:01:26 <Bike> «Datatype for intermediating interaction: OI has two states (programmer cannot distinguish), non-expressed and exressed. `Non-expressed' indicates that no computation is assigned. In other words, it's value is never denotated by any expression. » is it wrong to judge a library by its docs grammatical errors
07:01:37 <oerjan> elliott: i even imported all modules either qualified or with import lists
07:01:39 <Bike> (if it is i want to be right. sorry)
07:01:48 <oerjan> (even lens, it was shorter than i feared)
07:02:12 <elliott> oerjan: there is Control.Lens.Operators for when you want to import Lens qualified but still use the infix, btw
07:02:52 <elliott> though I view explicit import lists for "standard" packages like base and containers as insanity-inducing. and then add lens to that list to avoid additional insanity.
07:04:28 <oerjan> elliott: the thing is that other people view packages missing explicit import lists a insanity-inducing when they break on the slightest upgrade
07:05:15 <oerjan> admittedly i only added the list for lens at the last minute.
07:05:33 <elliott> oerjan: well the point is that base etc. are standard. and that the time you spend maintaining those import lists is longer than the time it takes to fix stuff on upgrades, especially when versioned dependencies mitigate the problem. (ghc has policy not to use them for this reason btw)
07:05:45 <elliott> and then you add lens even though it isn't stable at all because every rule needs an exception :P
07:06:07 <oerjan> elliott: the insanity is when someone _else's_ package breaks and you cannot get hold of them to fix it.
07:06:22 <elliott> ah. so you believe your coding style has an influence on the world :P
07:06:39 <oerjan> i just felt like being enterprisy.
07:07:25 <oerjan> like, i commented almost everything, added type signatures to just about everything, used the prettyprint module...
07:08:14 <Bike> should there be a book like Real World Haskell, except Enterprise Haskell instead of that thing i just named
07:08:19 <oerjan> and did a couple of refactorings.
07:08:40 <elliott> Bike: should there be something like jazz, but more like a banana
07:08:56 <Bike> fuck bananas, though
07:09:05 <Bike> also that already exists: free jazz.
07:20:40 <Sgeo> I try to install one simple package, and it feels like it's compiling half of Hackage
07:22:18 <Bike> What does it feel like to compile half of Hackage?
07:22:43 <Sgeo> It feels like I should go to sleep instead of waiting up for this thing to finish
07:22:56 <Bike> Well you did lose a whole hour.
07:23:48 <Sgeo> asjdfhklasjdfhlaksjdfh
07:24:07 <Sgeo> The actual package that I wanted failed to compile because of lack of FlexibleContexts
07:31:14 <oerjan> elliott: FEATURED LANGUAGE BLURB NOW INACCURATE, HTH
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07:36:44 <ais523> ofc, it's a wiki, you could fix it yourself :)
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07:37:19 * oerjan wasn't sure how to formulate, he claims
07:38:15 <ais523> also people aren't used to just casually editing the main page
07:38:47 <oerjan> it's a black hole of templates
07:40:07 <elliott> ais523: for what it's worth, I'd rather they don't get into the habit. because do you remember NSQX.
07:40:32 <ais523> elliott: it's OK if they're oerjan
07:40:48 <elliott> hmm, I should just make oerjan an admin. that way he'd be obligated to fix this kind of stuff
07:41:05 <ais523> elliott: I don't think there are any
07:41:08 <elliott> no, what, there was an NSQX quote
07:41:13 <ais523> maybe it got penta`quoted
07:41:19 <Bike> I'll wait here.
07:41:21 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
07:41:31 <elliott> if someone removed it I will slay them
07:41:42 <oerjan> elliott: this is all your fault for getting people into the habit of deleting quotes hth
07:41:49 <elliott> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/df5488147554
07:41:50 <elliott> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/9673f347ec4d
07:42:22 <ais523> elliott: those don't really get across how NSQX behaved
07:42:24 <elliott> so far he is the only person to have ever evaded a block on the esolang wiki
07:42:32 <ais523> elliott: not counting spambots?
07:42:38 <elliott> those aren't people, ais523
07:42:43 <ais523> and possibly whoever it was who was impersonating lament?
07:42:43 <Bike> A very enthusiastic day.
07:43:10 <elliott> Bike: this may also help http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:NSQX
07:43:17 <Bike> that was kind of boring though did y- oh
07:43:32 <elliott> pictured: my skill at diplomacy gradually weakening
07:43:40 <Bike> btw enthusiasm isn't usually a quality that i would ascribe to units of time
07:44:15 <elliott> oh another good nsqx quote (nsquote)
07:44:16 <elliott> This seems like a good idea, and I support it, but I suspect NSQX will manage to mess it up somehow. —Maharba 05:45, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
07:44:55 <Bike> wow it's weird seeing you like, write actual sentences
07:45:08 <elliott> yeah i try to avoid doing it
07:45:18 <ais523> wow, nsqx was less than a year ago
07:45:21 <Bike> i guess that makes it ok, just don't do it again
07:45:24 <ais523> I thought it was further back, somehow
07:45:32 <Bike> or in another place i can see it, retroactively speaking
07:45:36 <elliott> you should have seen my on-channel outburst when i woke up and the main page was totally fucked and recent changes had like 500 changes by one guy in it
07:45:45 <elliott> it involved a lot of allcaps yelling asking what the fuck is going on
07:45:52 <Bike> that's what nsqx did?
07:46:16 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&oldid=31480
07:46:26 <elliott> except the template he used got deleted
07:46:36 <elliott> also http://esolangs.org/wiki/Nonsense_Query_List.
07:47:13 <Bike> man, i've seen sql worse than that.
07:47:34 <ais523> elliott: are you sure about that being nsqx's main page? apart from the formatting error, it looks like the current one
07:47:44 <elliott> Bike: oh right he also started botting
07:47:45 <elliott> 14:11, 30 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (0) . . m UniCode (Wikipedia python library)
07:47:48 <elliott> 14:11, 30 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (0) . . m UniCode (Wikipedia python library)
07:47:51 <elliott> 14:11, 30 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (0) . . m UniCode (Wikipedia python library)
07:47:54 <elliott> 14:11, 30 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+57) . . m UniCode (Wikipedia python library)
07:47:58 <elliott> ais523: yes he introduced a formatting error and the "most recent languages" thing
07:48:01 <elliott> but it took him about 50 revisions
07:48:14 <ais523> also how did the most recent languages work? manual updating?
07:48:25 <elliott> containing his language ofc :P
07:48:40 <ais523> I think Special:Newpages is transcludable
07:48:44 <ais523> so you might be able to do it that way
07:48:57 <Bike> so elliott what's an example of a thing that doesn't fill you with rage? like let's say, an esolang
07:49:19 <elliott> i think /// is my favourite or second-favourite esolang maybe
07:49:35 <Bike> fuck, everybody likes underload.
07:50:08 <elliott> who wouldn't like a language whose article's first section describes a specific aspect of the language and then goes on to admit nothing ever implemented it
07:50:21 <monqy> even i like underload…yikes!
07:50:55 <elliott> also as a rule we like things oerjan has a hard time programming in.
07:51:21 <ais523> well a language has to be at least moderately good (or dupdog) for people to seriously try programming it
07:51:26 <elliott> you found underload a bit too easy so you had to make it terrible and remove 90% of it for it to appeal
07:51:27 <Bike> Wait, what's the point of the reserved characters?
07:51:40 <elliott> they were meant to be for overload, the language underload is a tarpit of
07:51:44 <ais523> Bike: so you can output unmatched parens, etc
07:51:45 <elliott> but overload doesn't exist
07:51:51 <Bike> what the hell is - oh
07:51:53 <elliott> ais523: err, they don't let you do that
07:52:09 <elliott> at least not according to [[Underload]]
07:52:09 <ais523> elliott: I have a few unfinished Overload interps lying around, which may or may not implement the same language
07:52:24 <ais523> I guess I could try to dig them out?
07:52:33 <Bike> also isnt underload a tarpit of like, joy
07:52:36 <ais523> unfinished because I never manged to work out Overload's specs
07:52:40 <ais523> Bike: it's a tarpit of Overload
07:52:41 <Bike> or... i don't remember
07:52:46 <ais523> Overload has some similarities to Joy, but not that many
07:52:53 <oerjan> elliott: i followed the same approach for emmental, btw
07:52:55 <ais523> Underload removed most of the complexity that other languages don't have
07:53:02 <ais523> Overload has pointers, for instance
07:53:25 <elliott> monqy: do you like /// btw
07:53:29 <elliott> i feel it's important for people to like ///
07:53:38 <Bike> man i feel like i should be compiling a fucking #esoteric talmud here
07:53:45 <Bike> there's just so much history and subtlety
07:54:03 <ais523> and if you're wondering how pointers work in a concatenative language
07:54:07 <ais523> it's, umm, interesting
07:54:27 <Bike> well i wasn't wondering but now i sort of am
07:54:40 <oerjan> concatenative languages are pointless, duh
07:55:09 <Bike> you can still have a thing that points it's just that the points themselves are gone!
07:55:47 <monqy> 23:53:25 <elliott> monqy: do you like /// btw
07:55:48 <monqy> 23:53:29 <elliott> i feel it's important for people to like ///
07:56:00 <ais523> if it encountered a literal pointer in source code
07:56:03 <ais523> it interpreted it as a goto
07:56:16 <ais523> and ^ was actually implemented by putting a pointer to the next statement at the end of the top stack element
07:56:24 <ais523> then detaching and jumping to that stack element
07:56:34 <ais523> actually, ^ wasn't a primitive, you could implement it in the rest of the language
07:56:54 <ais523> (it is a primitive in Underload)
07:57:00 <elliott> Bike: here's the #esoteric history: hey guys remember those good days. no. no we don't. every day before now is complete shit and everyone in the past was awful
07:57:43 <Bike> elliott: no that's generalized history. what happens is that you go over all the complete shit with a fine toothed comb to find the little nuggets of digested shit and then you compile those into a book and let it rot for like a thousand years or so and then it's canon.
07:58:12 <ais523> there used to be more esolang discussion, but the offtopic discussion used to be more awful, too
07:58:20 <ais523> nowadays we have less esolang discussion, but more interesting offtopic dicussion
08:14:30 <zzo38> Do you know if it is possible for a Verilog simulation to import and export MIDI files?
08:15:18 <ais523> zzo38: I don't, although at least output seems likely
08:15:29 <elliott> Bike: as long as the book says that Bike sucks i'm ok
08:15:30 <ais523> and it would be easy if you had a preprocessor/postprocessor
08:19:55 <zzo38> I am trying to think of how to do some specific kind of ordering of records having the same primary order (such as a timestamp), such that you can insert stuff before or after or in between any of them, move stuff, delete stuff, while still working. Does SQL even support such things?
08:22:15 <ais523> zzo38: couldn't you just use a secondary ordering as a tiebreak?
08:22:36 <zzo38> ais523: That is what I thought, but then it isn't "everywhere dense"
08:24:02 <zzo38> SQL has no surreal number type, fraction type, or accurate real number type.
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08:29:16 <zzo38> Possibly a custom collation might work, but I don't know of the speed or size of such things
08:32:28 <zzo38> What do you think is best?
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08:34:46 <Taneb> I did not expect this snow
08:34:52 <Taneb> elliott, can you confirm snow?
08:37:22 <ais523> my laptop said it was rainsnowing earlier, but I didn't look out of the window to check
08:37:25 <ais523> apparently it's now snowing
08:37:30 <ais523> perhaps I'll see if there's snow on the ground
08:37:57 <ais523> observation results: I can't see snow on the ground
08:38:35 <Taneb> Yeah, but you're stupidly far midlands
08:43:37 <zzo38> Is there any better way than what I suggested? It could be made the index of these fields together, and then make a view which orders them and adds fields for before and after, so that you can make insert in between.
08:47:12 <ais523> *apparently it's now sunny with clouds
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10:19:45 <mroman> die wenigsten hier sprechen überhaupt Deutsch vermutlich.
10:20:10 <Vorpal> <Taneb> I did not expect this snow <-- is it unusual at this time of year over there?
10:20:12 <hagb4rd> ich dachte schon ich wäre der einzige
10:20:25 <Taneb> Mid march? Not unheard of, but yes unusual
10:20:37 <Vorpal> Taneb, it is -10 C or so today here, was like +2 a couple of days ago though
10:22:38 <Vorpal> Taneb, hm or is "here today" more idiomatic?
10:22:43 <Vorpal> rather than "today here"'
10:22:53 <Taneb> Yes, I think it would be
10:40:25 <Deewiant> Vorpal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Place%E2%80%93manner%E2%80%93time (and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjective#Adjective_order for adjectives)
10:40:58 <myname> .oO( senor vorpal kickasso? 9
10:43:43 <olsner> Vorpal: you should be ready for random snow at least until may
10:49:26 <olsner> ah, I read the message the wrong way, I thought you were the one who didn't expect the snow
10:50:12 <Vorpal> olsner, though i have to say, it is really rare in may
10:50:30 <Vorpal> at least in these parts of Sweden
10:50:35 <Vorpal> probably not rare up north
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11:17:10 <zzo38> Does vi or vim or emacs have a mode to ring the bell once a specified column is reached?
11:20:17 <monqy> what if i accidentally enable it? i do not want the bell
11:20:36 <olsner> is that what type writers had?
11:25:37 <zzo38> Some typewriters had such thing.
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11:48:31 <FreeFull> Why does reactive-banana have filterJust when Data.Maybe has catMaybes
11:49:29 <olsner> because bananas hate cats and maybes
11:50:33 <ion> simianMaybes
11:52:11 <zzo38> catMaybes also seems that can be written in many ways, such as: catMaybes = (>>= toList); or catMaybes x = do { Just y <- x; [y]; }; or in other ways too, I guess.
11:53:22 <lambdabot> `Data.Foldable.toList' (imported from Data.Foldable),
11:54:08 <elliott> FreeFull: because it works on Behaviors instead iirc?
11:54:12 <FreeFull> zzo38: I personally would have written it as a fold, but the monadic version might be better
11:55:52 <zzo38> FreeFull: You could fold too, but toList is foldable, anyways.
11:56:40 <FreeFull> You can do (Foldable f) -> f (Maybe a) -> f a
11:57:03 <elliott> FreeFull: ...no you can't.
11:57:09 <elliott> (and Behavior can't be an instance of Foldable)
11:57:24 <FreeFull> elliott: Oh right, you'd need to know the constructor
11:57:58 <zzo38> Foldable does not imply Functor; Foldable just means it can be converted to a list.
11:58:42 <FreeFull> Well you can't do it for Functors
11:58:52 <FreeFull> At least not without additional restraints too
11:58:55 <zzo38> Yes, you can't do it for Functors either.
11:59:31 <zzo38> You could do it for Alternative.
12:00:24 <zzo38> Or for Functor+Plus.
12:02:29 <zzo38> Actually, I don't think so.
12:02:38 <zzo38> But you could with MonadPlus.
12:02:44 <zzo38> Alternative is not enough.
12:03:07 <FreeFull> How do some and many work anyway
12:03:41 <zzo38> catMaybes = (>>= maybe mzero return);
12:04:12 <monqy> FreeFull: alt. they don't
12:04:25 <FreeFull> I seem to get bottom for anything but Nothing
12:04:28 <monqy> FreeFull: alt. they only make sense for things like parser combinators
12:04:48 <FreeFull> :t \x -> do { Just y < x; return x; }
12:04:50 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `m0 a0' with actual type `Bool'
12:04:50 <lambdabot> In a stmt of a 'do' block: Just y < x
12:04:51 <monqy> but if you think of them in terms of applicative parsers they make perfect sense
12:04:57 <zzo38> Well, some and many can do other things too, but mostly for parsers.
12:04:58 <FreeFull> :t \x -> do { Just y <- x; return x; }
12:05:00 <lambdabot> Monad m => m (Maybe t) -> m (m (Maybe t))
12:05:10 <monqy> other things too "but not much"
12:05:54 <FreeFull> :t \x -> do { Just y <- x; return x; } [Just 3]
12:06:02 <FreeFull> :t (\x -> do { Just y <- x; return x; } $ [Just 3])
12:06:03 <lambdabot> Num a => ([Maybe a] -> Maybe t) -> [Maybe a] -> Maybe t
12:06:10 <zzo38> If you have a instance Alternative IO, then you could automatically stop reading on error, for example.
12:06:59 <FreeFull> Control.Applicative seems to only come with [] and Maybe instances
12:07:20 <zzo38> Any monad on (->) is also applicative, though.
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12:08:09 <FreeFull> Haskell only does monads on (->) anyway, right?
12:10:17 <elliott> FreeFull: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/base/4.6.0.1/doc/html/Control-Applicative.html#control.i:Applicative
12:10:31 <elliott> and all the standard monad transformers etc. are instances
12:10:55 <zzo38> (Haskell cannot automatically define the instances, though)
12:11:05 <FreeFull> elliott: What about Alternative?
12:11:46 <elliott> the docs still list more than that there
12:12:00 <elliott> (ReadP, ReadPrec, STM, arguably: ArrowMonad/WrappedMonad/WrappedArrow)
12:12:44 <zzo38> In other categories though, it is not necessarily the case that all monads are applicative.
12:13:45 <zzo38> pure = return; (<*>) = ap;
12:15:02 <FreeFull> pure = return; (<*>) f a = f >>= \f -> return (f a)
12:15:12 <zzo38> I prefer using fmap/pure/liftPair instead of <*> but that can work too; liftPair is workable with any tensor category, though.
12:15:14 <FreeFull> I am always tempted to abuse Haskell's scoping
12:15:33 <elliott> that definition is... not quite right
12:15:57 <FreeFull> pure = return; (<*>) f a = f >>= \f -> return (f <$> a)
12:16:31 <monqy> "there you have it"
12:17:14 <monqy> have you considered thinking it through
12:17:46 <elliott> dropping the return doesn't work either
12:18:17 <elliott> :t \p q -> p >>= \f -> fmap p q
12:18:21 <elliott> :t \p q -> p >>= \f -> fmap f q
12:18:22 <lambdabot> (Monad m, Functor m) => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b
12:21:29 <monqy> imo liftM2 ($) is better than liftM2 id because it makes it more clear even though it's the same thing
12:22:44 <Jafet> imo clarity is overrated
12:23:00 <elliott> monqy: um liftM2 id is shorter
12:25:30 <zzo38> liftM2 is also same as liftA2, specifically because all monads in Haskell are applicative, that it can do that, I think is the reason.
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12:26:41 <zzo38> All categories have monads (at least an identity monad, and if it has final objects, also a Finalize monad).
12:26:46 <Jafet> You are right, except not all monads are applicatives. So, well, you weren't right.
12:27:24 <zzo38> They are (in Haskell, not in general), but the instance is not necessarily defined.
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12:28:59 <zzo38> A category with final objects has a Finalize monad for each final object of that category, actually.
12:29:32 <Jafet> :t let f :: Monad m => ((a -> b -> c) -> m a -> m b -> m c) -> d; f = undefined in f liftM2
12:29:34 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `m0' in the constraint:
12:29:34 <lambdabot> (Monad m0) arising from a use of `f'
12:29:34 <lambdabot> Probable fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)
12:29:50 <Jafet> :t let f :: Monad m => ((a -> b -> c) -> m a -> m b -> m c) -> d; f _ = undefined in f liftM2
12:29:52 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `m0' in the constraint:
12:29:52 <lambdabot> (Monad m0) arising from a use of `f'
12:29:52 <lambdabot> Probable fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)
12:30:31 <Jafet> :t let f :: (Monad m => (a -> b -> c) -> m a -> m b -> m c) -> d; f _ = undefined in f liftM2
12:30:35 <Jafet> :t let f :: (Monad m => (a -> b -> c) -> m a -> m b -> m c) -> d; f _ = undefined in f liftA2
12:30:36 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `m0' in the constraint:
12:30:36 <lambdabot> (Applicative m0) arising from a use of `liftA2'
12:30:36 <lambdabot> Probable fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)
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13:12:56 <Arc_Koen> @tell Oerjan "In any case I believe this proves Emmental Turing-complete. However it may happen to do so in a way which I have previously disagreed with Chris Pressey on whether it counts or not. :P " what does that mean?
13:13:56 <Arc_Koen> @tell Oerjan also my attempt to use qdeql was so close, but you didn't use it at all :(
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13:15:09 <olsner> I wonder if lambdabot treats nicks case sensitively or not
13:16:22 <Arc_Koen> you couldn't have wondered that three minutes earlier could you :(
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13:26:26 <olsner> it wasn't a pertinent question back then
13:33:02 <Arc_Koen> @tell ARC_KOEN I don't even remember if I tried talking to myself yet
13:33:39 <lambdabot> olsner: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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14:53:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: wait since when are you here
14:53:03 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:55:07 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: basically snow is like rain but when it's cold enough to freeze it'll come down as "snow" instead
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14:57:08 <fizzie> I don't think you've got quite all of it.
14:57:31 <fizzie> Finnish Meteorological Institute says there's a 49 cm snow cover here, for example.
14:57:48 <olsner> we haven't had much snow here for a long time, maybe that's the snow that you're getting
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15:53:15 <Sgeo> Got FreeGame to work
15:53:20 <Sgeo> Needed a newer version
15:55:44 <Sgeo> Is it bad that I don't entirely understand FlexibleContexts UndecidableInstances etc., and plan on letting GHC tell me if I ever need them?
15:58:21 <Sgeo> Functions of type a->a are monoids, right?
15:58:33 <Sgeo> mempty = id; mappend = .
15:58:45 <Sgeo> Or would it be flip (.)?
15:58:45 <monqy> we call them "Endo" here
15:58:52 <monqy> and "Dual Endo" ;)
15:59:08 <monqy> "something like THat
15:59:50 <Taneb> Sgeo, yes, but as newtype Endo a = Endo {appEndo :: a -> a}
16:00:07 <Taneb> Because "instance Monoid m => Monoid (a -> m)" exists
16:00:49 <Taneb> And they'd overlap if you want mempty :: String -> String, for example
16:00:57 <Taneb> (is it id or const ""?)
16:04:41 <FreeFull> Taneb: const "" is a -> String though
16:04:54 <Sgeo> Basically, I'm imaginging how one would write "plugins" for SimpleIRC bots. Each plugin would have a function IrcConfig->IrcConfig that adds its own event handlers to the config
16:04:56 <Taneb> FreeFull, and why can't a be String?
16:05:36 <Taneb> So, const "" is a valid mappend fo String -> String, yeah?
16:05:52 <Taneb> Sgeo, Endo IrcConfig
16:06:04 <Sgeo> Also, SimpleIRC still sucks for being not as typesafe as it should be
16:06:59 <Sgeo> There's only one type of event handler, and every message (except for one) gets the same type of message passed to it, and the types in that record tend to have Maybes
16:07:39 <Sgeo> So rather than "Ok, the event handler for this message will always receive XYZ", it's "the event handler for this message must be capable of dealing with parts of the message not being there"
16:19:05 <Sgeo> @hoogle runMaybeT
16:19:05 <lambdabot> Control.Monad.Trans.Maybe runMaybeT :: MaybeT m a -> m (Maybe a)
16:28:48 <Taneb> :t MaybeT [Nothing, Nothing, Just 1]
16:28:50 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `MaybeT'
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16:34:12 <FreeFull> :t runMaybeT $ do { x <- [3..10]; return x; }
16:36:57 <Taneb> How can I express ap in terms of fmap, return, and join?
16:39:12 <Taneb> f <*> x = join (fmap (uncurry fmap . flip (,) x) f)
16:39:45 <Taneb> Actually, I can make that nicer...
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16:47:17 <Deewiant> No need to make a tuple just so that you can uncurry...
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17:08:54 <AnotherTest> This is very weird:http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15268229/ebnf-whitespacing-in-meta-identifiers/15324944
17:09:28 <AnotherTest> I've sort of tried to answer the question. Although I actually find it hard to believe that the standard would have missed something that obvious
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17:23:25 <Taneb> The Gall-Peters projection makes me uncomfortable
17:25:04 <Taneb> Maybe I'm just too used to Mercator
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17:47:46 <fungot> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
17:49:33 <Sgeo> The bot in MSPA that I made is so... early that we sometimes think it's a false alarm when it isn't
17:50:11 <Fiora> (john: still totally adorkable)
17:50:16 <Taneb> Trivia: I know someone who actually answered an exam question along the lines of "Nuclear power plants work by nuclear fish"
17:50:31 <Taneb> The options were Nuclear Fission, Nuclear Fusion, and Nuclear Fish
17:51:18 <Fiora> that sounds like a debaitable answer
17:51:45 <Taneb> I am afraid they were a few kippers short of a shoal
17:51:47 <Fiora> it sounds pretty outraygeous to me
17:52:30 <Taneb> `pastelogs <Taneb> Trivia:
17:53:02 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29785
17:54:10 <Taneb> Anyway, now I shall leave.
17:54:43 <Taneb> It's a joke answer to an easy exam question
17:55:13 <Arc_Koen> so not a fish with glowing eyes and lethal touch?
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19:12:38 <Vorpal> <Arc_Koen> so not a fish with glowing eyes and lethal touch? <-- it could be
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19:59:42 <Vorpal> You know what the world doesn't need?
19:59:48 <Vorpal> Harlem shake (gangnam style)
20:00:50 <Taneb> Harlem shake (gangnam style) (dubstep remix)
20:00:58 <Bike> psy dancing the actual harlem shake would be kinda fun
20:03:46 <Taneb> Also, I quite like the occasional dubstep
20:04:04 <Bike> burial's pretty nice
20:04:28 <Taneb> I'm not "into it", but I find it pleasant to listen to
20:04:36 <Taneb> In the same way I enjoy classical music
20:05:42 <Vorpal> <Taneb> Harlem shake (gangnam style) (dubstep remix) <-- oh my god
20:05:54 <Taneb> Please say it exists
20:06:59 <Taneb> Saying that, I've never actually heard Harlem Shake
20:07:00 <Vorpal> "Psy Does the 'Harlem Shake' + Announces 'Gangnam Style' Followup
20:07:00 <Vorpal> PopCrush - 5 hours ago"
20:07:13 <Vorpal> I'm scared to click that link
20:08:01 <Vorpal> Bike, looks like your wish has come true (before you made it?)
20:08:35 <Vorpal> just google harlem shake gangnam style
20:08:45 <Vorpal> I'm not going to click it
20:09:03 <Taneb> Retroactive wish granting
20:09:19 <Taneb> I wish that Czechoslovakia was two countries
20:09:38 <Taneb> Slovakia, and... something like Czechia but that sounds stupid so not that
20:13:26 <FreeFull> What's wrong with Czech Republic
20:13:39 <kmc> i dunno, i think "czechia" sounds better
20:13:48 <Taneb> That's a much better name than Czechia, FreeFull
20:13:51 <kmc> what's the endonym in common use
20:13:53 <FreeFull> In Polish, it's just called Czechy
20:15:20 <Taneb> kmc, "Czech", if an endonym is what I think it is
20:16:18 <kmc> i think you are mixing up endonyms and demonyms
20:16:30 <kmc> i'm asking what people in czech republic call the country in their native language
20:16:33 <kmc> in common use
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21:07:09 <oerjan> the universe vs. Taneb: 25-3
21:07:09 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
21:07:15 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen said 7h 54m 19s ago: "In any case I believe this proves Emmental Turing-complete. However it may happen to do so in a way which I have previously disagreed with Chris Pressey on whether it
21:07:15 <lambdabot> counts or not. :P " what does that mean?
21:07:15 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen said 7h 53m 19s ago: also my attempt to use qdeql was so close, but you didn't use it at all :(
21:07:42 <Taneb> I'm doing substantially worse than Scott Pilgrim
21:08:46 <Taneb> Alas, this is Taneb's brain vs Taneb
21:09:42 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: chris pressey has quandaries about whether it is TC unless it can do TC computation on data given through the language's official input method - which i don't use at all :P
21:09:55 <oerjan> or that's my impresssion anyway.
21:10:20 <oerjan> @tell Arc_Koen chris pressey has quandaries about whether it is TC unless it can do TC computation on data given through the language's official input method - which i don't use at all :P
21:10:38 <oerjan> @tell Arc_Koen s/it/a language/
21:12:54 <oerjan> @tell Arc_Koen aww. well you can do an implementation that actually handles input, then.
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21:16:44 <oerjan> @tell Arc_Koen Hey, maybe you can make an implementation that doesn't use the _stack_. or only the top element, that is.
21:19:23 <oerjan> @tell Arc_Koen hm wait you need the stack to use ! :(
21:21:24 <ais523> elliott: we seem to have a persistent spambot who's got around the captcha somehow, I've set abusefilter to recognise its edits and disallow them (no blocks yet); there might theoretically be false positives but we haven't had any all year
21:21:46 <ais523> specifically, it looks for ".<br>" and a capital letter, but no newlines, in a new user's first edit, and only if it's to a user page
21:22:43 <Taneb> I wish I had the drive to actually do things
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21:24:29 <ais523> this is a trivially easy restriction for a spambot author to modify their spambot to get around, but unless they're targetting Esolang specifically they won't
21:26:05 <oerjan> they could use a genetical algorithm to tweak things trivially until they pass, and keep site-specific data without actually doing anything manually. in theory.
21:26:44 <oerjan> but if they cared that much, they wouldn't use <br> in the first place.
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21:31:32 <Taneb> oerjan, you are a criminal mastermind
21:34:42 <oerjan> <FreeFull> How do some and many work anyway
21:35:21 <oerjan> some and many only make sense in alternatives where the same action can either succeed or fail at different times.
21:36:00 <oerjan> most simple monads do not have that property.
21:36:13 <oerjan> it's called "logreading"
21:37:06 <FreeFull> So they are useless for the Alternative instances that come with Control.Applicative
21:37:08 <oerjan> State(T) and IO can do it, but neither Maybe, Reader or Writer give that property.
21:38:13 <FreeFull> Reader doesn't allow you to modify the values you read, and Writer doesn't allow you to read them
21:38:40 <FreeFull> Maybe doesn't have any "side-values"
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21:41:01 <oerjan> > runState (many $ do x <- get; guard (x < 10); put (x+1); return x) 0
21:41:03 <lambdabot> No instance for (Control.Monad.MonadPlus
21:42:11 <oerjan> > runStateT (many $ do x <- get; guard (x < 10); put (x+1); lift $ Just x) 0
21:42:13 <lambdabot> Just ([0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9],10)
21:43:30 <oerjan> State alone doesn't have the Alternative part.
21:44:37 <oerjan> probably Integer, by defaulting
21:45:45 <oerjan> > runStateT (many $ do x <- get; guard (x < 3); put (x+1); lift $ [x]) 0 -- seeing what happens with lists
21:45:47 <lambdabot> [([0,1,2],3),([0,1],2),([0],1),([],0)]
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21:47:30 <oerjan> > evalStateT (many $ do x <- get; guard (x < 3); put (x+1); lift $ [x]) 0
21:49:01 <oerjan> right, with lists the failure case is _always_ included after the success, so you get an automatic branch at each iteration that doesn't completely fail
21:49:24 <oerjan> i'm sure that could be used for _something_ :P
21:49:57 <oerjan> sadly it's in the wrong order to give an infinite list. hm...
21:50:04 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class `Backward'
21:50:06 <fungot> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
21:50:08 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class `Backwards'
21:50:42 <Taneb> Bah, I can't watch sound ATM
21:50:57 <Taneb> ...I really need to fix my graphics card driver thingy on my computer
21:50:58 <Fiora> hussie is incredibly silly
21:51:19 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: buuuuuuuut nobody will know that
21:51:19 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
21:51:32 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class `Backwards'
21:51:32 <Arc_Koen> that's the problem when we just say "I just proved this language is TC"
21:51:52 * oerjan swats lambdabot for not having Backwards -----###
21:51:52 <Taneb> We need a time machine and ask Alan Turing
21:52:22 <zzo38> Sure, considering the list to have success/failure is one possible way to look at it, and is a reasonable way to do so in some circumstances.
21:52:25 <lambdabot> oerjan said 42m 5s ago: chris pressey has quandaries about whether it is TC unless it can do TC computation on data given through the language's official input method - which i don't use at all :
21:52:25 <lambdabot> oerjan said 41m 47s ago: s/it/a language/
21:52:25 <lambdabot> oerjan said 39m 30s ago: aww. well you can do an implementation that actually handles input, then.
21:52:25 <lambdabot> oerjan said 35m 41s ago: Hey, maybe you can make an implementation that doesn't use the _stack_. or only the top element, that is.
21:52:27 <lambdabot> oerjan said 33m 2s ago: hm wait you need the stack to use ! :(
21:52:50 <Arc_Koen> oh I just watched this fun time travel series pilot
21:53:07 <Arc_Koen> apparently the pilot wasn't a success because they didn't make the series
21:53:26 <Arc_Koen> why do they keep canceling all my favourite time travel series :(
21:53:33 <Taneb> Fiora, what's the music to the update so I can hum it while it's muted?
21:53:51 <Taneb> Arc_Koen, did you hear the time travel Irregular Podcasts?
21:54:17 <Taneb> http://irregularwebcomic.net/podcasts/ numbers 14, 17, and 18
21:54:21 <Taneb> They're more like radio plays
21:54:42 <Sgeo> Taneb, if it helps, the song is Elevatorstuck
21:54:53 <Arc_Koen> ok I'll listen to them right now
21:55:46 <Arc_Koen> but you know deep down I feel no time travel series can be truly realistic
21:55:57 <Taneb> This one goes for silliness
21:56:01 <Fiora> Taneb: it's like, the elevator music
21:56:05 <Arc_Koen> because what you could do if you had a time machine is SO HUGE
21:56:22 <Taneb> Arc_Koen, Primer is about as realistic it gets
21:56:27 <Arc_Koen> so any use of a time machine shown in a series is *nothing* compared to its actual potential
21:57:02 <Taneb> What a silly Homestuck update
21:57:05 <Taneb> And goodnight, folks
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21:57:41 <oerjan> oh wait Backwards won't help for this
21:57:54 <Arc_Koen> I think he's listing all bacteria he knows
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22:18:12 <zzo38> Do you like this idea of the INI for describing preferred input and so on of NES/Famicom game? http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?p=108450#p108450
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22:20:17 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Is it bad that I don't entirely understand FlexibleContexts UndecidableInstances etc., and plan on letting GHC tell me if I ever need them?
22:20:41 <oerjan> note that if you follow ghc's advice like that, you might end up getting redundant options.
22:21:33 <oerjan> in my last program, it suggested several things before FlexibleInstances, all of which are implied by it
22:22:01 <oerjan> (i think FlexibleContexts was one)
22:31:12 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.15934
22:31:40 <oerjan> `pastelogs <Taneb> Trivia:
22:32:17 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.21731
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23:11:00 <tswett> Hey, who wants to buy one ten thousandth of my post-tax income for all time?
23:11:06 <tswett> Only $750. This is not an offer.
23:17:06 <Bike> How long do you intend to be alive?
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23:43:38 <ais523> hmm, that translates to more than $7.5 million lifetime earnings = a good deal
23:43:50 <ais523> that seems likely, I guess
23:44:02 <ais523> although, you need to take into account alternative investments
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23:44:10 <Sgeo> D&D multiplication is weird
23:44:16 <ais523> also there's a potential loophole; if you do the deal with 10 thousand different people
23:44:34 <ais523> then you get $7.5 million, which is enough to live off, and so never have to make any money at all and so don't have to pay them back
23:44:44 <ais523> Sgeo: think of it as added percentages
23:44:51 <ais523> it's not ×2, it's +100%
23:46:54 <Sgeo> o.O, and that works out identically?
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23:48:25 <zzo38> Yes, D&D multiplication does work like that, although the DM which I play with always uses actual multiplication. I too think they write it like that wrongly; in Icosahedral RPG rules they should be written what is meant instead, whether it is x2 or +100% or whatever!!
23:52:08 <Jafet> Dungeons & Dragons, the original roll-playing game.
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23:54:52 <Jafet> ais523: you'd have to make the deals simultaneously though
23:54:59 <Jafet> Receiving $750 is income
23:56:12 <ais523> yeah but you'd still end up with quite a lot, after rounding errors
23:56:17 <ais523> around half, I think, maybe a bit more
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23:59:19 <oerjan> > sum [ x*0.075 | x <- [0..9999] ]
23:59:52 <oerjan> > sum [ x*0.075 | x <- [0..9999] ] / 7500000
00:01:30 <oerjan> (that's the amount you have to pay back, btw)
00:02:08 <oerjan> wait, except it was post-tax
00:02:28 <Jafet> What kind of tax applies to this
00:02:42 <Jafet> Doesn't the american tax form have a field for "illegal activities"
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00:03:52 <oerjan> there's supposed to be a way to declare those without being caught, since otherwise it would be against the 5th amendment to have to declare them
00:04:46 <Jafet> I thought that was just there so that the government could prosecute you twice
00:05:04 <Jafet> Once for illegal activities; and then for not paying tax on those activities
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00:16:13 <Sgeo> Is it just me, or is Haskell probably a good language for expressing D&D stuff?
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00:17:23 <Sgeo> validDruid (Alignment Neural _) = True; validDruid (Alignment --
00:17:40 <Bike> I hope nobody minds that I paste things I see in here to other people sometimes.
00:17:42 <Sgeo> erk, can't use Neutral as a constructor for both GoodEvilAxis and LawChaosAxis
00:17:43 <Bike> Apropos of nothing.
00:18:14 <Sgeo> Also s/Neural/Neutral/
00:18:48 <zzo38> Yes, I can see that you can't
00:18:54 <zzo38> You have to try something else
00:18:56 <Bike> Doesn't fourth ed simplify the alignment system ayway.
00:19:08 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, in a *stupid* way.
00:19:11 <Sgeo> I guess d20srd isn't 4th ed?
00:19:17 <Sgeo> Also, OOTS is 3.5
00:19:34 * Bike just got out of a 4e game, knows shit about the rules other than that they're a favored target of grognards
00:19:54 <Bike> And I am in fact playing a neutral druid.
00:20:34 <Sgeo> Bike, did I say you can't?
00:20:52 <Sgeo> I'm just miffed at having to use different words for Neutral
00:21:24 <Bike> No, I just meant because a neutral druid was your example :P
00:21:24 <zzo38> Actually you can use the same word for both (in a kind of hackish way) by using GADTs
00:21:27 <Bike> are you stalking me etc
00:22:10 <oerjan> data AlignmentOn :: * -> * where Good :: AlignmentOn GoodEvilAxis; Evil :: AlignmentOn GoodEvilAxis; Lawful :: AlignmentOn LawfulChaoticAxis; Chaotic :: AlignMentOn LawfulChaoticAxis; Neutral :: AlignmentOn anyAxis , HTH
00:22:37 <zzo38> data AlignmentAxis :: * -> * where { Neutral :: forall x. AlignmentAxis x; Good :: AlignmentAxis GoodEvil; Evil :: AlignmentAxis GoodEvil; Lawful :: AlignmentAxis LawChaos; Chaotic :: AlignmentAxis LawChaos; }
00:22:50 <Sgeo> Bike, well, Druids have to be neutral at least on one axis
00:22:56 <Sgeo> Took me a bit too long to work that out
00:23:02 <Bike> yes but i am being silly.
00:23:08 <Sgeo> "Neutral good, lawful neutral, neutral, chaotic neutral, or neutral evil." is a bit verbose
00:23:09 <Bike> (Unlike the serious Haskell discussion here)
00:23:24 <zzo38> data Alignment = Alignment (AlignmentAxis LawChaos) (AlignmentAxis GoodEvil);
00:23:41 <zzo38> Now you can call them both Neutral if you want to.
00:23:48 <Bike> (alt.: insult of haskell based on comparison to toy morality that is the D&D alignment system)
00:26:31 <oerjan> Bike: i am sorry but my evil plans must _not_ be referred to outside this channel. i hope you understand.
00:26:36 <zzo38> Now to make Icosahedral alignment, it is the same as 3.5e except that there is also a "creature kind alignment entry", which is a bit more complicated, now either axis can be X for "don't care", and there is also a prefix which can be S (stereotypical), A (always), U (unaligned), or X (don't care). This is more complicated.
00:26:45 <Bike> oerjan: your what
00:26:58 <oerjan> no, not my what. my evil plans.
00:27:22 <zzo38> oerjan: What about references to the timestamp of the message of your evil plan of the channel?
00:29:12 <zzo38> (S is the most common alignment for intelligent creatures, A is the most common alignment for outsiders, U is the most common alignment for normal animals and simple constructs, and X is the most common alignment for normal humans.)
00:30:11 <zzo38> Icosahedral RPG is more mathematical than D&D, so probably many more things (but still not everything) can be expressed in Haskell in some ways, too.
00:30:44 <Bike> What does something being "more mathematical" mean
00:31:52 <zzo38> What do *you* think???
00:32:42 <Bike> Uh, I don't know. So I asked.
00:32:59 <zzo38> I don't entirely know either.
00:33:38 <zzo38> data AlignmentBias = AlignmentBias AlignmentMode (Maybe (AlignmentAxis LawChaos)) (Maybe (AlignmentAxis GoodEvil));
00:35:57 <zzo38> newtype Mana = Mana (Color -> Natural); newtype Multimana = Multimana (Mana -> Natural); -- Not a computable representation of multimana, also allows it to be infinite, which it might not supposed to be
00:37:03 <zzo38> (Map Mana Natural) might be a more precise representation
00:37:17 * Sgeo is somewhat surprised that Mark of Justice is an actual spell
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00:37:52 <zzo38> I made up some spells for Dungeons&Dragons game.
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00:39:21 <zzo38> If you are playing a NN druid, can you give the other details of the character? (animal companions, character species, etc)
00:41:34 <zzo38> In other words, a mana is a multiset of colors (where the "colors" are w,u,b,r,g), and a multimana is a multiset of manas, and forms a semiring.
00:41:51 <zzo38> That is what I mean by being "more mathematical".
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00:44:34 <zzo38> Now is it understandable?
00:55:01 <Sgeo> Dear Google: My dad was _not_ talking about a clear pharmacy.
00:55:27 <Sgeo> (He was saying 'call your father')
01:00:21 <Sgeo> Only when leaving a voicemail.
01:02:37 <Sgeo> I should start treating my YouTube favorites as more of a queue. Currently it's very stacklike
01:02:49 <Sgeo> I so rarely look at the earliest things I favorited
01:06:09 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I frequently refer to someone I'm talking to in the third person if I think other people might be reading and confused as to who it's addressed at
01:06:32 <ais523> just like I treat days in the third person (rather than "today") if there might be a delay in the message, or timezone issues
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01:10:26 <oerjan> slightly related, blogs where you have to hunt around to find either the message posting date or the author's name are a pet peeve of mine.
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01:11:35 <oerjan> ALSO PEOPLE QUITTING JUST AS I RESPOND TO THEM
01:14:17 <Phantom_Hoover> i hate blogs which don't let you page through posts easily
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01:49:03 <Sgeo> o.O hsc2hs is a thing that's part of the Haskell Platform?
01:50:04 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class `Free'
01:50:04 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `Tree' (imported from Data.Tree)
01:50:13 <Sgeo> I'm sure I tried it
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01:58:28 <Sgeo> Nothing wrong with using fixIO directly if I understand it better than DoRec, right?
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02:01:42 * tswett ponders the free monad.
02:02:31 <tswett> Yeah, that's trivial to come up with. data FreeM a where FBind :: FreeM a -> (a -> FreeM b) -> FreeM b; FReturn :: a -> FreeM a
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02:05:31 <Sgeo> Is the play money one still up/
02:06:07 <tswett> Well, they say that they're "ceasing trading, settling all open positions, and ceasing all banking transactions".
02:06:21 <tswett> Technically, the play money one isn't any of those; it's just a game.
02:06:39 <tswett> Though the play money one might have been tied to real-money numbers, and those numbers no longer exist.
02:07:21 <Sgeo> intrade.net says the playmoney one has been moved to play.intrade.com, and play.intrade.com is down
02:07:22 <oerjan> Sgeo: the options for monadic recursion are in a bit of a mess, with them just recently deciding to switch which one they're deprecating. so in ghc head DoRec is deprecated, but the other option now includes both the mdo and rec keywords with slightly different meanings.
02:07:25 <Sgeo> "The service is not available. Please try again later."
02:07:46 <tswett> Wait, that thing I came up with above isn't the free monad, because it isn't a monad.
02:08:07 <Sgeo> oerjan, fixIO uses unsafeInterleaveIO, but I can write the operator I need without it. Should I still use fixIO?
02:08:12 <Sgeo> The interleaving can't hurt, can it?
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02:08:42 <oerjan> tswett: istr there are at least two implementations of free monads on hackage, one i think is free and the other is called operational
02:08:58 <oerjan> Sgeo: it's _supposed_ to do the right thing :P
02:09:43 <oerjan> but if you are not _actually_ doing value recursion across IO actions, then i suppose you shouldn't really use fixIO either.
02:10:02 <oerjan> Sgeo: what operator are you trying to write?
02:10:59 <Sgeo> oerjan, I have a library that has an addEvent function, which returns a Unique. I need that Unique in order to remove the event handler. I want to write a thing that makes an event only run 1 time, so basically it would take an event handler and make it also cancel the event at the end.
02:11:33 <Sgeo> Probably would have to take the place of addEvent
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02:12:10 <oerjan> ok i don't immediately see why that requires any recursion
02:12:47 <Sgeo> Need the result of addEvent in the thing I pass to addEvent
02:12:53 <oerjan> you want an event to see its own Unique.
02:13:05 <Sgeo> But I don't see why that would need unsafeInterleaveIO... I think
02:13:31 <oerjan> well are you writing addEvent yourself?
02:14:03 <oerjan> what's its type? IO () -> IO Unique ?
02:14:46 <oerjan> i would think that requires fixIO yes.
02:15:04 <Sgeo> Not quite, but along those lines
02:15:42 <oerjan> well if its actually type doesn't have something else allowing you to sneak in the Unique, then you still need fixIO.
02:16:19 <Sgeo> Why not passing in an MVar Unique instead of a Unique?
02:16:34 <oerjan> i mean, if it was addEvent :: (Unique -> IO ()) -> IO Unique, then we wouldn't be having this conversation. :)
02:16:43 <oerjan> oh right, you could do that.
02:17:47 <Sgeo> But I guess there isn't really a reason not to use fixIO, is there? And better to avoid writing custom code for a thing
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02:20:47 <oerjan> fixIO is probably prettier than MVars, even if it uses mutable vars underneath.
02:20:57 <oerjan> and unsafeInterleaveIO.
03:07:08 <zzo38> Other thing that continuation monad does is such as http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Bruijndejx does continuation do that in other programming languages too or only in Haskell?
03:13:53 <oerjan> zzo38: i'm sure you can do it in e.g. scheme although you would have to make the f () equivalent expressions into thunks or the PutZero etc. into macros to avoid the continuations being called early, since scheme is a strict language.
03:15:02 <zzo38> oerjan: Can you give an example?
03:15:37 <oerjan> :t cont $ \f -> Just (f ())
03:15:38 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = Maybe a0
03:15:38 <lambdabot> In the return type of a call of `f'
03:15:38 <lambdabot> In the first argument of `Just', namely `(f ())'
03:16:18 <zzo38> That obviously won't work! What are you trying to make?
03:16:43 <oerjan> i'm just checking the type of what you wrote in the article
03:18:31 <zzo38> The type of what I wrote in the article uses a recursive datatype, so Maybe doesn't work
03:21:24 <oerjan> oh wait now i see the problem
03:21:50 <oerjan> scheme doesn't have a direct equivalent to calling the _top_ continuation directly.
03:22:21 <oerjan> so maybe you need to do something else.
03:22:38 <oerjan> perhaps delimited continuations could do it.
03:23:41 <oerjan> which i don't understand very well, but i recall haskell continuation monads can emulate them
03:24:13 <zzo38> What I know is that the example I have given doesn't use callCC at all, and I'm not sure if it could reasonably be written with callCC.
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03:28:26 <oerjan> it seems like it's more like coroutines maybe
03:31:32 <Sgeo> oerjan, haskell continuation monad is delimited. cont corresponds directly to shift
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03:31:55 <zzo38> O, it is? Then that would work, I suppose.
03:33:04 <zzo38> Does Scheme and other programming languages have that, and if so would it function in a same or similar way?
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03:36:24 <oerjan> scheme doesn't have it built-in, but it can supposedly be implemented using ordinary continuations and a mutable variable - however oleg kiselyov and others have critisized that this doesn't fit well with the rest of the language (because things break when you mix it with certain other things, including other ordinary continuations)
03:36:47 <zzo38> Continuation are usually done with call/cc but I find law of excluded middle continuations are usually more clear to understand to me.
03:37:35 <zzo38> oerjan: Then would there be better ways to do such thing in Scheme other than continuations, if that would be the case?
03:41:24 <oerjan> from wikipedia's delimited continuation article: (define (yield x) (shift k (cons x (k (void)))))
03:42:29 <oerjan> assuming Sgeo's claim that shift = cont, that looks similar to your code in a way
03:43:30 <Sgeo> Want me to run some examples of shift/reset on wikipedia?
03:43:31 <oerjan> zzo38: well the claim is you need to take _delimited_ continuations as the primitive building block and build the rest of the control structures from those to make it fit together
03:43:47 <Sgeo> @let reset = flip runCont
03:44:02 <Sgeo> @let reset = flip runCont id
03:44:19 <Sgeo> @undefine reset
03:44:26 <Sgeo> @let reset = flip runCont id
03:44:32 <Sgeo> @let shift = cont
03:44:33 <oerjan> that scraps _all_ definitions, there is no way to remove a particular one
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03:45:06 <oerjan> but given that, everyone has to wipe out everything occasionally.
03:45:20 <Sgeo> > 2 * (reset (1 + (shift $ \k -> k 5)))
03:45:22 <lambdabot> It could refer to either `L.shift', defined a...
03:45:40 <oerjan> dammit is the housemate knocking on the wall because of my typing...
03:45:55 <Sgeo> > 2 * (reset (1 + (cont $ \k -> k 5)))
03:45:57 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (Control.Monad.Trans.Cont.Cont a0 a0))
03:46:52 <Sgeo> > 2 * (reset $ do { c <- (cont $ \k -> k 5); return (1 + c)})
03:50:17 <lambdabot> It could refer to either `L.shift', defined at <local>:2:1
03:54:33 <oerjan> > 2 * (reset (1 + (L.shift $ \k -> k 5)))
03:54:35 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (Control.Monad.Trans.Cont.Cont a0 a0))
03:55:55 <Sgeo> oerjan, it's still an issue of shift giving a Cont ...
03:56:04 <Sgeo> I think there is a thing that enables that style though
03:56:43 <Sgeo> Cont r is a monad
03:56:47 <oerjan> > 2 * (reset ((1 +) <$> (L.shift $ \k -> k 5)))
03:58:35 <zzo38> It can also make ContT () IO a -> IO [a] is possible, too.
03:59:23 <zzo38> It doesn't work with ContT on other monads, and it also doesn't work ContT () IO a -> IO a
04:07:01 <zzo38> Do you know if there is a way to convert a list of connections between 74xx components into a Verilog code?
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04:58:37 <lambdabot> MonadReader r m => (r -> a) -> m a
04:58:43 <Sgeo> Ok, so I'm not hallucinating it
05:04:10 <zzo38> Hopefully you can understand what ContT () IO a -> IO [a] is meaning?
05:04:23 <zzo38> Would you ever use such a thing in some program, though?
05:10:20 <Sgeo> Is (r->) a MonadReader?
05:11:10 * Sgeo remembers someone saying that ask and asks are both id
05:11:18 <Sgeo> But I thought that was conceptual
05:11:19 <myname> sometimes i think one should make an entire langauge based on monads
05:12:06 <Sgeo> DAE THINK THAT ($) IS LITERALLY ID?
05:12:21 <kmc> HULK SMASH
05:13:30 <ion> > let ($) = ask in length $ "foo"
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05:28:15 <zzo38> myname: Make one based on monads on other categories too
05:29:15 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> I think Gregor is going to kill me
05:29:22 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> I am laughing hysterically at something he introduced me to, and I'm eating.
05:30:36 <zzo38> Kill you by what? The food, which is poisoned or whatever?
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05:32:05 <Sgeo> zzo38, by making me choke on my food
05:32:15 <Sgeo> Because I'm laughing while eating
05:32:27 <zzo38> I forgot about that.
05:35:20 <oerjan> pesky randall munroe ruining math
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05:40:48 <oerjan> at least math notation is ruined in today's xkcd
05:57:11 <Sgeo> @hoogle usafeCoerce
05:57:15 <Sgeo> @hoogle unsafeCoerce#
05:57:29 <oerjan> Unsafe.Coerce.unsafeCoerce
05:57:45 <lambdabot> Unsafe.Coerce unsafeCoerce :: a -> b
05:58:03 <Sgeo> usafeCoerce was how it was spelled in a comment
05:58:13 <Sgeo> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/base/4.6.0.1/doc/html/src/Unsafe-Coerce.html#unsafeCoerce
05:58:19 <Sgeo> -- See Note [Unsafe coerce magic] in basicTypes/MkId
05:58:19 <Sgeo> -- NB: Do not eta-reduce this definition, else the type checker
05:58:19 <Sgeo> -- give usafeCoerce the same (dangerous) type as unsafeCoerce#
05:58:46 <zzo38> Then report that mistake
06:00:57 <oerjan> so the question is, how can unsafeCoerce# possibly be more dangerous
06:02:25 <zzo38> I think they mean the type is more dangerous
06:02:34 <zzo38> (That still doesn't explain it, though)
06:05:56 <oerjan> the types listed are the same...
06:08:21 <zzo38> I thought it was something like unsafeCoerce# :: forall (a :: ??) (b :: ?). a -> b
06:10:17 <oerjan> so it doesn't show any difference when the types are shown without their kinds
06:11:02 <oerjan> they removed those special kinds from -> though...
06:11:47 <zzo38> Some functions uses it though, such as function with #
06:12:59 <Sgeo> A Coyoneda f a can be converted into an f a if f is a Functor?
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17:06:10 <Taneb> I am outstanded at my ability to put papers into a bag
17:06:19 <Taneb> Need to clear out my school bag...
17:06:31 <Taneb> I appear to have broken physics
17:08:03 <Taneb> I think I was going for astonished
17:12:44 <boily> you should try «fasciné». it has a nice, artsy and classy «é».
17:13:26 <Gregor> Also, its name is surrounded in those foreign-looking French quotamajigs.
17:14:05 <boily> «oh là là». you can't get sexier than that.
17:14:27 <Gregor> I thought it was spelled “ou” or something thereabouts.
17:15:27 <boily> well, the keys are right next to each other.
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19:55:01 <lambdabot> System.Random randomRs :: (Random a, RandomGen g) => (a, a) -> g -> [a]
19:55:01 <lambdabot> Data.Ix inRange :: Ix a => (a, a) -> a -> Bool
19:55:01 <lambdabot> Data.Ix index :: Ix a => (a, a) -> a -> Int
19:56:50 <FreeFull> I was thinking there should be a function that takes a list of tuples, and a list of things, and replaces any occurence of something that's a first thing in a tuple with the second thing
19:57:13 <zzo38> Do you have a prorgam to connect Verilog programs to MIDI ports and MIDI files?
19:57:15 <FreeFull> Hayoo can't find anything like that
19:58:27 <FreeFull> Maybe that would be more efficiently done with a Map
19:59:19 <FreeFull> Hoogle isn't giving anything for a map either though
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20:00:58 <Bike> wouldn't that be built out of a substitute function
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20:05:26 <oerjan> <boily> «oh là là». you can't get sexier than that. <-- but you need to combine it with that strange gesture only french (canadian?) people can make, i learned this from guy delisle's pyongyang comic (the north korean animators could never get it right)
20:06:31 <Sgeo> FreeFull, would at least need an Eq constraint
20:06:32 <oerjan> some kind of weird waving of the hand iirc
20:06:44 <Sgeo> @hoogle (Eq a) => [(a,a)] -> [a] -> [a]
20:06:44 <lambdabot> System.Random randomRs :: (Random a, RandomGen g) => (a, a) -> g -> [a]
20:06:44 <lambdabot> Data.Ix inRange :: Ix a => (a, a) -> a -> Bool
20:06:44 <lambdabot> Data.Ix index :: Ix a => (a, a) -> a -> Int
20:08:01 <oerjan> youtube provides: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syuwyjzyAy4
20:08:32 <Bike> @hoogle (Eq a) => [a] -> a -> [a]
20:08:33 <lambdabot> Data.List delete :: Eq a => a -> [a] -> [a]
20:08:33 <lambdabot> Network.CGI.Protocol replace :: Eq a => a -> a -> [a] -> [a]
20:08:33 <lambdabot> Data.List (\\) :: Eq a => [a] -> [a] -> [a]
20:09:40 <boily> oerjan: «oh là là» is mainly from the other side of the Great Puddle. people here don't use that expression that much.
20:10:10 <olsner> boily: is it from canadian french?
20:10:26 <Sgeo> oerjan, it's Freefull who wanted something
20:10:44 <Sgeo> :t map . (flip lookup)
20:10:45 <lambdabot> Eq a => [(a, b)] -> [a] -> [Maybe b]
20:11:06 <oerjan> :t catMaybes . map . (flip lookup)
20:11:08 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[Maybe a0]'
20:11:08 <lambdabot> Expected type: (a1 -> b0) -> [Maybe a0]
20:11:21 <oerjan> :t (catMaybes .) . map . (flip lookup)
20:11:22 <Bike> you don't want to remove the nothings either, do you?
20:11:55 <oerjan> well then he needs a default if he's going to keep the type
20:12:34 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Show a, FromExpr b) => f a -> f b
20:12:48 <oerjan> :t map . (fromMaybe ?default .) . flip lookup
20:12:49 <lambdabot> (?default::b, Eq a) => [(a, b)] -> [a] -> [b]
20:13:14 <Sgeo> My intuition of (f .) is that it pushes f so that it occurs after an argument, a .. wow I'm being incoherent
20:13:15 <boily> olsner: no, from France French.
20:13:37 <HackEgo> boily is Canadian or something. We are not sure about Canada's existence.
20:13:53 <oerjan> (just checking which side of the puddle boily means :P)
20:13:59 <AnotherTest> I need a list of typical noob interjects. Any help?
20:14:04 <Sgeo> > (((*) .) . (+)) 3 4
20:14:05 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (a0 -> a0))
20:14:19 <oerjan> boily: however guy delisle himself is canadian...
20:14:36 <oerjan> but it may have been work for a french company
20:14:57 <FreeFull> oerjan: Has the right type but I've been thinking of a function that doesn't drop things that don't match
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20:15:25 <Sgeo> FreeFull, so, if it's found you want the match, if not found you want the original?
20:15:31 <boily> oerjan: I don't know who he is. let me wikipedia him...
20:16:31 <oerjan> FreeFull: oh so you really _do_ want it to be b = a.
20:17:12 <olsner> boily: oh, you're from the other side of the puddle so when you say the other side of the puddle it's the other other side?
20:17:31 <lambdabot> Data.ByteString breakSubstring :: ByteString -> ByteString -> (ByteString, ByteString)
20:17:31 <lambdabot> Data.ByteString.Char8 breakSubstring :: ByteString -> ByteString -> (ByteString, ByteString)
20:17:31 <lambdabot> Data.ByteString findSubstring :: ByteString -> ByteString -> Maybe Int
20:17:43 <Sgeo> data SideOfPuddle = ThisSide | OtherSide
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20:18:11 <oerjan> :t map . (\dict a -> fromMaybe a $ lookup a dict)
20:18:36 <boily> olsner: there are some people here from the same puddleside as me, IIRC. but I can't remember who they are.
20:19:03 <oerjan> :t map . flip (\a -> fromMaybe a . lookup a)
20:19:59 <oerjan> :t map . flip ((.) <$> fromMaybe <*> lookup)
20:20:30 <oerjan> (the last one is probably overdoing pointlessness)
20:22:36 <oerjan> Sgeo: filterJust is a synonym for catMaybes which i just yesterday learned is in reactive-banana for some reason, don't know where else. but catMaybes should be more official.
20:23:25 <oerjan> <AnotherTest> I need a list of typical noob interjects. Any help? <-- what is a noob interject?
20:24:26 <oerjan> boily: zzo38 is also canadian, this surprises some people.
20:24:41 <oerjan> not french canadian though afair
20:24:53 <boily> indeed, I am surprised.
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20:25:30 <boily> a noob interject is a function that is defined for each noob.
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20:26:30 <lambdabot> Data.Maybe catMaybes :: [Maybe a] -> [a]
20:26:41 <AnotherTest> oerjan: an interject that a "noob" would typically use
20:27:16 <Sgeo> I said ne1 a lot back in 2001
20:27:19 <oerjan> AnotherTest: but presumably not new to youtube, facebook
20:27:29 <Sgeo> Although I guess that's not an interject
20:28:13 <oerjan> AnotherTest: anyone using @nick instead of nick: to address people. lambdabot really helps people get over that fast. :P
20:29:04 <boily> @oerjan didn't know about that one. people really do that?
20:29:26 <oerjan> boily: it has happened several times. it's standard twitter idiom, of course.
20:29:57 <oerjan> (afaiu, i don't have a twitter account.)
20:30:41 <oerjan> (i assume twitter even notifies the addressee, but don't really know.)
20:31:04 <boily> sometimes I check if I drunkenly created an account, just to be sure I still don't have any.
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20:35:19 <zzo38> Can some INTERCAL programs be compiled into Verilog programs? There is INTERCAL into C compiler, but is there INTERCAL into Verilog, VHDL, and INTERCAL into 6502 machine codes?
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20:40:26 <Lumpio-> zzo38: Have you ever gotten an answer to your random, out-of-the-blue questions like this one?
20:40:51 <zzo38> Sometimes, if people actually know the answer.
20:41:18 <zzo38> (which is sometimes difficult)
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21:00:59 <oerjan> <boily> →? <- "->" is an #esoteric interject which i use roughly equivalently to "afk". i think oklopol started it.
21:02:34 <oerjan> zzo38: i expect that question in particular will be more useful to ask when ais523 is here.
21:03:15 <oerjan> seeing as he is both a C-INTERCAL maintainer and a hardware compilation expert
21:05:45 <oerjan> <Gregor> I thought it was spelled “ou” or something thereabouts. <-- google seems to insist on "oh", even when i use "o"
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21:11:05 <Sgeo> I have an interview!
21:11:08 <Sgeo> With Cablevision!
21:11:29 <Sgeo> It's on the same day as the internship that I don't care about anymore though, so don't know how that's going to work out :/
21:12:13 <oerjan> next up: Sgeo learns time management skills
21:12:21 <oerjan> (then he has to teach them to me)
21:12:52 <Sgeo> I flat out do not see a way to get from one to the other in time.
21:13:40 <oerjan> Sgeo: i think the trick is supposed to be to check these things _before_ making the appointment.
21:15:32 <Sgeo> I suggested Thursday or Friday to the Cablevision person, but the person said Wednesday
21:15:35 <monqy> remember that time you said "tomorrow would be fine" and then realized you had no idea what you just said and got yourself into
21:17:49 <oerjan> i suspect that telling people "i'm sorry, i have another appointment that day" should in theory make a _positive_ impression, since it tells the other person you actually _have_ a slight amount of time management skills.
21:18:21 <Sgeo> Is it too late to call the person and say that?
21:18:43 <Sgeo> Or should I reschedule the other appointment?
21:18:43 <oerjan> no, but i suspect it is too late to make a good impression while doing it
21:20:22 <oerjan> funny this comes up the day before i have my yearly dentist checkup appointment, and my sleeping schedule is so bad it will be _hell_ to get to it.
21:20:22 <Sgeo> I think I need a backbone.
21:20:48 <oerjan> and my sleeping schedule is not predictable enough to reschedule things
21:21:42 <boily> I like dentists. I tend to fall asleep on their chairs.
21:22:19 <Bike> can't you just set an alarm
21:22:26 <oerjan> i don't usually fall asleep at the dentist's, but tomorrow _could_ be an exception.
21:22:52 <Sgeo> oerjan, reminder: Don't drive while tired.
21:22:54 <oerjan> Bike: um the most promising method will be to force myself to stay up until the appointment.
21:23:05 <Bike> your schedule is fucked up man
21:23:05 <oerjan> Sgeo: i don't drive at all these days.
21:23:10 <Bike> straight fucked
21:23:28 <oerjan> (the appointment is at 2 PM)
21:23:45 <Sgeo> @localtime oerjan
21:23:46 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Mon Mar 11 22:23:46 2013
21:23:49 <boily> oerjan: the best beverage to keep you awake I know is yerba mate infused with black coffee instead of hot water.
21:23:58 <boily> only use that as a last resort.
21:24:10 <Sgeo> oerjan, because of sleep issues, or other reasons?
21:24:14 <Sgeo> (about not driving)
21:24:22 <oerjan> i don't have coffee, although i _should_ be able to force myself to a cafeteria.
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21:24:42 <oerjan> Sgeo: no, that's because i don't have the self confidence to drive, also no car.
21:25:02 <Sgeo> I HATE TALKING ON THE PHONE SO MUCH
21:25:16 <Sgeo> I feel so restricted from checking stuff while on the phone
21:25:32 <Sgeo> Maybe it's because this phone is so broken I have to actually hold it up to my mouth and wear headphones
21:25:37 <Bike> man remember when phones were for talking
21:25:39 <Bike> that was so weird!
21:25:49 <Sgeo> I'm more comfortable when I use my computer as a phone
21:26:04 <Sgeo> I can actually multitask like that
21:26:14 <Bike> do you then use your phone as a computer
21:27:01 <Bike> http://media.tumblr.com/2c38ccac77eabfb694a3d4299f7682e5/tumblr_inline_mjereimmXg1qz4rgp.jpg
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21:31:17 <Sgeo> Incidentally, I've been talking to a recruiter, so they have a vested interest in making sure I get the job
21:31:21 <Sgeo> Is this good to say?
21:31:22 <Sgeo> "Are there no other days that would work well? I had scheduled an interview for an internship that day, but initially thought that I could do both on the same day. That looks impossible now though. The Cablevision opportunity is more important to me, so I could try to reschedule the other thing."
21:37:21 <Sgeo> Dad's saying I shouldn't have sent that
21:38:14 <oerjan> well why didn't you ask him _first_, then.
21:38:29 <Sgeo> He just came home
21:53:18 <elliott> Sgeo: so was the plan for your father to stop ruling your life after you graduate, or
21:56:46 <Sgeo> I think it helps that the Cablevision person is a recruiter, so if I make a bit of a bad impression, it's with him and not with Cablevision
21:57:16 <Sgeo> (Presumably he still wants to make money)
22:11:02 <zzo38> Do you not use phones for talking?
22:11:25 <Sgeo> I want to use my PC for talking and my phone for browsing Reddit.
22:11:30 <Lumpio-> People still use phones for talking?
22:11:35 <Lumpio-> Oh right yeah, there's Skype isn't there
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22:12:46 <zzo38> Do you have a microphone on your PC?
22:13:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: true! history shows Sgeo's father will limit himself to a reasonable amount of controlling, after all
22:13:28 <Bike> is sgeo a rogue robot maid built by his father
22:14:50 <Bike> keep your fishes out of this Bike?
22:15:04 <Sgeo> Bike is now talking to himself about his fish fetish.
22:15:07 <zzo38> Yes, keep your fishes out of this, too, not only your fetishes
22:15:16 <Bike> I will do that.
22:16:24 <oerjan> no, everyone knows a fish doesn't need a bike
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22:32:04 <Arc_Koen> I think bikes are a lure commonly used by fish when they fish
22:32:52 <Sgeo> I feel like I really messed up :(
22:33:41 <Arc_Koen> I don't know if I would mention interviews for other jobs to the person interviewing me
22:34:56 <Sgeo> Technically, I only mentioned it to a recruiter
22:35:02 <Arc_Koen> unless you're using that other interview to sell yourself... "hey, I'd be happy to take a course in your school, but can we do the interview another day? on that date I already have an interview with the MIT"
22:35:36 <Arc_Koen> isn't the recruiter the guy who interviews you?
22:36:05 <Sgeo> The recruiter is a person independent of the company that gets paid when they get someone into a job
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22:37:13 <Arc_Koen> sometimes I can get free meals by having friends over
22:38:26 <Arc_Koen> eating for free makes sets me in a good mood, so I want to come to that place again, so I bring new friends
22:38:55 <Arc_Koen> if you're not careful you might end up never paying again
22:39:28 <Sgeo> But the recruiter has no reason to communicate my time management issues to Cablevision, right?
22:40:51 <Arc_Koen> well, casual talk near the coffee machine during the coffee break
22:41:08 <Arc_Koen> "hey, how's the recruitment going" "well, I had to reschedule" "oh, why?"
22:42:17 <Arc_Koen> but since he'll be paid if you get the job, it's probably in his best interests to give them a good impression about you, right?
22:43:12 <Arc_Koen> "The Cablevision opportunity is more important to me, so I could try to reschedule the other thing." will make you sound weak, though
22:43:40 <Arc_Koen> or very interested depending on the circumnstances, I guess
22:43:53 <Jafet> "What would robot Jenny do?"
22:45:42 <oerjan> the obvious criticism "so why didn't you try to reschedule that _first_?"
22:46:48 <Jafet> Does cablevision have anything to do with eurovision
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23:17:33 <Sgeo> "Criticisms of basic income are only possible when conflating it with minimum/guaranteed income, and criticizing that instead."
23:17:40 <Sgeo> That's not POVed at all, Wikipedia.
23:22:02 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Basic_income&action=history
23:23:05 <Bike> wow how totally normal huh
23:23:41 <Bike> Oh, I think Shalizi mentioned this though.
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23:47:27 <Sgeo> I fear that I may have screwed myself over so badly :(
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01:07:26 <Arc_Koen> Sgeo: hey stop torturing yourself
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01:07:47 <Sgeo> Got an email from the recruiter
01:08:03 <Sgeo> 'I will check. I'm not sure. What time is your internship interview?'
01:10:04 <Arc_Koen> what in those three sentences make you think you've screwed yourself over?
01:11:42 <Sgeo> The part where I received the email after saying that I feel like I screwed myself over.
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01:43:54 <zzo38> I was playing Dungeons&Dragons game today.
01:44:09 <zzo38> I didn't quite advance experience level just yet
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01:53:08 <Sgeo> I forget. zzo38, do you read OOTS?
01:56:30 <zzo38> I read books, mostly
01:57:58 <zzo38> I did manage to find the stuff that they took, along with various other things, so we took back our stuff and left everything else there, and then teleport away, twice, which helps. They had some magic alarm in there but I managed to turn it off
01:58:45 <zzo38> But first I want to see if it has a resonant frequency; maybe that can be used.
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02:36:22 <Sgeo> I can't wait to be able to eat!
02:38:11 <elliott> is your mouth currently glued together
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02:39:53 <Bike> iirc it's mostly tape
02:40:02 <Sgeo> I'm being slightly poetic >.>. Just waiting for food to cook.
02:40:10 <Sgeo> Well, for water to boil, after which food will be cooking.
02:49:46 <lambdabot> Text.XHtml.Strict thead :: Html -> Html
02:49:46 <lambdabot> Text.XHtml.Frameset thead :: Html -> Html
02:50:33 <Bike> > GHC.Exts.the [3,4,5]
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02:52:49 <elliott> it's the element of the list if they're all equal
02:55:07 <Sgeo> errors are ugly
02:55:13 <oerjan> doesn't seem like something that needs to be in GHC.Exts ...
02:55:27 <kmc> it's used by one of the sugars
02:55:34 <kmc> i think "SQL-like" extended list comprehensions
03:32:46 <kmc> shachaf: a friend of mine is thinking of buying a house in EPA!
03:33:01 <kmc> he says the crime rate is a lot lower than it used to be
03:33:09 <kmc> school districts are still bad but he isn't planning to have kids
03:36:05 <kmc> he also says the violence is mostly criminals killing each other
03:36:30 <kmc> which is the kind of statement that makes me uncomfortable in a social sense, but is probably ok as part of the personal calculation on where to buy a house
03:49:51 <zzo38> If criminals want to kill each other, well, that is why they are criminals. Just hope they don't kill the other people who are not the criminals that are killing each other all the time. If they are ciminal then hopefully the police catch them and take them to jail, and then kill each other while they are in there (as long as they don't kill the "small" criminals) it makes the police work less job! There is good and bad to good and bad things too.
03:51:25 <zzo38> That is why criminals should only kill each other while in jail. Outside of jail, they should be prevented to do so and should get caught by police instead.
03:52:20 <zzo38> But if you want to buy a house, that isn't the point.
03:52:26 <copumpkin> and in jail, it should be an arena
03:52:42 <zzo38> copumpkin: Yes; security cameras.
03:53:01 <copumpkin> yes, the cameras safeguard security and peace
03:53:12 <copumpkin> the populace will watch the games and will be peaceful
03:53:34 <zzo38> copumpkin: No, I mean an ordinary jail, not an island.
03:54:05 <zzo38> The point to buying a house is: how much it cost, how much you are nearby what you need to go to, how many rooms the house have, and so on.
03:54:38 <Bike> "In a very different universe where every point in space were independent from all others, white noise images would be common place."
03:54:41 <copumpkin> you wouldn't care if your house was right next to a slaughterhouse?
03:54:59 <zzo38> copumpkin: How much noise does a slaughterhouse make?
03:55:15 <copumpkin> zzo38: lots, constant squeals of pain and death and fear
03:55:17 <Bike> well, that would probably violate zoning restrictions. though i live next to a butcher and it's quite tolerable
03:55:23 <zzo38> Bike: O, do you mean the white noise universe?
03:55:34 <Bike> There's a white noise universe?
03:55:42 <zzo38> copumpkin: Then I suppose if there is a lot of noise I wouldn't want to live there too much.
03:56:38 <Bike> Kinda hard to pronounce.
03:57:24 <zzo38> Some people get around zoning restrictions that are put in place after the house is already built, by jacking the roof up several metres and then change the basement, change each part individually until you made an entirely new house, which still violates the zoning rule but is considered OK because you just changed the old house, rather than making the new one.
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04:14:10 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that leap seconds should be mentioned on Snopes.
04:14:39 <Sgeo> "There are some minutes with 61 seconds" totally sounds like a silly idea of the type that Snopes would debunk
04:18:09 <zzo38> At what time does the pope start?
04:18:52 <Bike> Oh, has the conclave finished?
04:21:43 <coppro> mass begins in 4 hours, and after that the conclave will begin with a single round of voting
04:21:49 <coppro> then 4 per day until there is a winner
04:23:43 <kmc> Sgeo: did you know they had February 30 in Sweden in 1712
04:24:53 <Bike> so, i guess that answers zzo38's question
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04:25:18 <Bike> related: did you know that between popes, the vatican insignia include a striped umbrella
04:25:24 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sede_vacante.svg
04:27:48 <kmc> america's next top pope
04:28:20 <Bike> eh, wasn't benny unpopular with the americans?
04:28:37 <kmc> don't know much about popes tbh
04:28:47 <kmc> he was unpopular with me and all my friends but...
04:29:33 <Bike> i'm mostly thinking of Beaton's comics about John Paul II, not that she's American
04:33:42 <kmc> i think it's more that JPII was unusually popular
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04:35:00 <Bike> "As part of his special emphasis on the universal call to holiness, he beatified 1,340 people and canonised 483 saints, more than the combined tally of his predecessors during the preceding five centuries" dang
04:36:00 <kmc> that's more than a full calendar's worth of saints
04:36:20 <Bike> i've never been clear on how saint days work anyway
04:36:49 <Bike> i wonder if during the eleventh century or so some guy was like "uh, guys? we have a thousand years worth of saints here, how can we have so many feast days if you keep canonizing people"
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05:00:09 <zzo38> They could make one day with many saints, I suppose, if they need to.
05:00:35 <zzo38> Including fictitious saints, if they want to, but usually they have removed them from the calendar in those cases.
05:03:35 <zzo38> (such as Filumena)
05:10:24 <zzo38> However: The removal of an individual from the calendar does not necessarily indicate that he or she is not a saint.
05:21:08 <zzo38> (But it is not really known if Filumena existed or not; there is evidence both ways.)
05:22:43 <Bike> Wikipedia's just showing me a 1946 play...
05:23:42 <Sgeo> I think I just thought of a real-world use case for newLIsp :/
05:24:39 <zzo38> Sgeo: What such use?
05:24:41 <Sgeo> Or partly anyway -- I think Smalltalk could do it too, but then maybe macros are also useful
05:25:05 <Sgeo> Suppose you want a continuation-based web server that can serialize the continuations
05:25:21 <Bike> good supposition
05:25:22 <Sgeo> newLisp can easily serialize any part of its state, if I understand correctly.
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05:26:08 <Sgeo> (Maybe it needs to scale up a lot and storing the continuations so storing all the continuations in memory isn't feasible, or something)
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06:00:50 <zzo38> Yes, what is it, please?
06:01:00 <HackEgo> Cutay: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
06:01:23 <zzo38> Cutay: The ceiling is up, and the light is up, and the sky is up.
06:01:40 <Cutay> Wow. That's not what I ment
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06:02:30 <ion> The z axis is up.
06:02:57 <Fiora> GPS satellites are up!
06:03:26 <Bike> Compared to me most of them are probably pretty far to the left or something.
06:03:49 <zzo38> What axis you want to be up, depends on your coordinate system
06:04:17 <zzo38> How can I plot the GPS satellites on the horoscope?
06:04:41 <Bike> aren't they geosynchronous?
06:04:46 <oerjan> i don't think they're orbits are close to ecliptic...
06:05:54 <zzo38> They don't have to be close to the ecliptic, to know their ecliptic longitude
06:06:09 <zzo38> I also want to plot the GPS satellites on the map of the world (giving their hour angle and declination)
06:07:14 <Bike> If they're not geosynchronyous they must have to keep track of where they are in their orbits, hm
06:08:53 <zzo38> The map of the world showing the hour angle and declination of the objects, together with their rising/setting/midheaven/nadir lines, are sometimes called "astro-graph" or "astro-map".
06:09:08 <oerjan> i think geosynchronous orbits would be _awful_ for triangulating - they're all in the same circle
06:09:23 <zzo38> Are GPS satellites geosynchronous?
06:09:30 <Bike> Wouldn't you just have them in different positions?
06:09:37 <oerjan> no, that's what i'm pointing out
06:09:41 <Bike> So you'd have one over New York and one over Mexico City or whatever
06:10:00 <oerjan> Bike: _all_ geosynchronous orbits are 20000 km over the equator
06:10:25 <Bike> that's... pretty obvious, isn't it
06:10:35 <zzo38> If you can't use geosynchronous orbits for triangulation, then it would be the idea that if you have satellites that need triangulation, remember to don't make them geosynchronous, please.
06:11:23 <zzo38> If they are over the equator, then I think their declination will be zero. What are their right ascension?
06:11:36 <zzo38> Furthermore, what is their hour angle?
06:11:39 <oerjan> another thing - if you were close to the equator and they were all over it, then even with perfect conditions you wouldn't be able to distinguish south of equator from north of equator
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06:12:05 <oerjan> by symmetry it would give the same signal times
06:12:21 <Bike> i get it, i get it >_<
06:12:51 <Bike> i won't launch a geolocation satellite network into orbits above the equator, i swear
06:13:05 <oerjan> so they cannot be. although i _do_ recall that the russian GLONASS satellites supposedly have better covering over the poles.
06:16:30 <zzo38> Still I would like to plot these artificial objects in horoscopes and astromaps, and for objects with cameras, including the camera too.
06:16:45 <zzo38> I don't know of any software that will do such things.
06:17:12 <Bike> There's no software to track the positions of artificial satellites?
06:17:35 <zzo38> Bike: There probably are, but not to create charts like I described.
06:17:40 <Bike> ...eh, I don't know much astrology, but don't they move relatively kinda fast for astrology anyway? Planets are bad enough.
06:17:42 <pikhq> How GPS does it is the satellites *themselves* send you the positions.
06:18:03 <pikhq> (IIRC the datastream contains the telemetry for all the satellites at the time)
06:18:14 <zzo38> Bike: The moon moves much faster, and houses move much faster than that. The speed at which they move isn't the point though.
06:18:40 <zzo38> (The houses move simply because the Earth rotates.)
06:19:32 <Bike> I mean, they'd change all the time.
06:19:45 <Bike> The GLONASS is rising in the house of the lion for two seconds, or whatever
06:20:08 <zzo38> Yes, they would change all the time, but that doesn't mean they don't have any coordinates!
06:25:06 <zzo38> I think there are some corrections and things, but I don't know how difficult that makes it to predict their positions in the future?
06:31:08 <zzo38> Some people wanted to remove Pluto from their horoscopes because it is not a planet. That is silly; just because it is not a planet, does not mean that it does not have any coordinates.
06:31:37 <zzo38> (A valid reason to remove Pluto would be if you wanted to avoid plotting too many objects at once.)
06:32:19 <zzo38> Do you agree with me about what reason is silly and what is valid?
06:32:43 <Bike> I agree that I want to know the sign of which pluton I was born under.
06:33:39 <zzo38> Well, you can calculate that easily with the correct software.
06:34:06 <zzo38> Do you mean the ecliptic longitude of Pluto at the time of your birth?
06:34:23 <zzo38> (The astrological signs are just an angular unit of measurement for ecliptic longitude.)
06:34:39 <Bike> Er, not pluton, what do you call those things...
06:35:09 <zzo38> O, you mean Plutino.
06:35:50 <zzo38> Your request does not make a lot of sense, as it is written. Please be more specific.
06:36:14 <Bike> People are usually born under the sign of some planet, right?
06:36:22 <zzo38> There are several plutinos.
06:36:55 <zzo38> Usually the sign you are born "under" actually refers to the ecliptic longitude of the sun at the time of your birth.
06:37:14 <zzo38> The sign you would actually be directly underneath would be the midheaven sign, not the sun sign.
06:37:39 <zzo38> Planets are said to rule certain signs (this is all arbitrary), but the signs are not planets.
06:37:46 <Bike> Midheaven has a cooler name.
06:38:10 <Bike> Is there some possible system of drawing a bijection between when you were born and a plutino?
06:39:03 <zzo38> I suppose it could be possible, but I don't know.
06:39:21 <zzo38> Not a bijection, though.
06:39:48 <zzo38> (since a bijection requires going both ways)
06:40:38 <zzo38> But you could calculate the coordinates of the plutinos at the time of your birth (or at a different time, if you want).
06:42:59 <zzo38> The ecliptic longitude of Pluto right now is 281 degrees, which is 11 Capricorn.
06:43:31 <oklopol> "<oerjan> <boily> →? <- "->" is an #esoteric interject which i use roughly equivalently to "afk". i think oklopol started it." i think it's a finnish / even more local thing which i thought was a general irc thing back then.
06:43:33 <zzo38> ("11 Capricorn" means 11 degrees past the beginning of the Capricorn sign.)
06:43:49 <zzo38> oklopol: Maybe; can you figure out?
06:44:04 <zzo38> oklopol: I didn't know that, so maybe it isn't necessarily?
06:44:26 <zzo38> See if other Finnish people say about it.
06:48:03 <oerjan> it cannot be finnish, it has no suffixes
06:53:47 <zzo38> Bike: Midheaven has a cooler name than what?
06:57:24 <Bike> Zenith is pretty good too.
07:01:02 <zzo38> Actually they aren't quite the same thing. Zenith is the point directly overhead; midheaven is the ecliptic longitude of the local meridian (that is, the meridian overhead). At noon, the sun is at midheaven; it is not necessarily at zenith. (If the sun is at zenith, this is called lahaina noon.)
07:02:02 <oerjan> well the sun cannot be at zenith at the latitudes most (all?) in this channel live at
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07:02:57 <zzo38> Well, yes, that is correct; the sun is only at zenith between the tropics. That doesn't make what I said incorrect, though.
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07:18:45 <zzo38> Does Windows not send the correct commands to the PC speaker?
07:30:06 <zzo38> Running a DOS program to send the commands on Windows seem to treat mode 2,3,4,5 as the same, even though Wikipedia says otherwise. If running on DOSBox, it makes single clicks for all modes other than 3 and 7 (which is equivalent to mode 3). However from the description it seems to be that mode 2 might also generate a continuous tone; DOSBox doesn't do that, though.
07:30:30 <zzo38> "OUT will then remain high until the counter reaches 1, and will go low for one clock pulse. OUT will then go high again, and the whole process repeats itself."
07:31:05 <zzo38> Does it not work directly because the hardware is faulty?
07:31:55 <zzo38> Or is it something Windows does?
07:34:17 <zzo38> Decimal mode does seem to work.
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07:36:59 <zzo38> Actually it is correct that mode 2 does not generate a continuous tone. "This mode creates a high output signal that drops low for one input signal cycle (0.8381 uS), which is too fast to make a difference to the PC speaker (see mode 3)." (from osdev)
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07:52:40 <shachaf> Did I miss multiple messages?
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08:01:15 <kmc> why buy a house in EPA? uh, I guess because it's cheap and he wants to live somewhere around there
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08:05:04 <ion> Eicosapentaenoic acid
08:07:15 <olsner> ah, buying a house in acid sounds like a bad deal
08:09:45 <kmc> it's East Palo Alto
08:09:48 <kmc> shachaf's hood
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08:13:12 <ion> gangstahood
08:13:30 <ion> shangstahood
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15:55:27 <metasepia> CYUL 121550Z 29002KT 10SM -RA FEW006 SCT012 OVC016 06/06 A2980 RMK SF2SC2SC4 SLP093
15:55:55 <boily> ah. everything is fine, except for the crappy weather.
15:56:33 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
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16:03:53 * Sgeo is utterly petrified of his interview tomorrow
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16:21:26 <Sgeo> Erm, don't know?
16:30:07 <Sgeo> I told the internship person that I wanted to reschedule, but didn't manage to set a date before she left for the day, but she did see that I wanted to reschedule, so if I don't show up to that hopefully it won't be bad
16:30:19 <Sgeo> The Cablevision interview is still going on :D
16:31:52 <ion> http://www.coinheist.com/rubik/a_regular_crossword/ https://github.com/ekmett/ersatz/commit/9e16d70986ad4169160d3e5647dc1c1ca05b49f0
16:32:02 <Arc_Koen> so she heard you telling her you wanted to rescheduled, but then said "oh wait it's 4pm I gotta go" and hung up on you?
16:32:44 <Sgeo> Arc_Koen, email conversation
16:33:38 <Sgeo> Considering my delays in replying to her, not really
16:35:40 <Arc_Koen> ok, well, just relax and you'll have a great interview tomorrow
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16:48:47 <boily> elliott: of course my bot won't answer. it was lunchtime.
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17:07:33 <Sgeo> It be tea time!
17:08:31 <boily> some day in my life, I'll have to celebrate tea time.
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17:18:04 <Taneb> "prove that the integral from 0 to N of ln (1 + x) with respect to x is equal to (N + 1) ln (N + 1) - N, where N is a positive constant"
17:18:15 <Taneb> I have no idea where to start with that
17:24:17 <kmc> i take it you're not allowed to just use the rules for integrating ln that are found in every calculus text?
17:24:57 <Taneb> That... may be a good idea
17:25:10 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_integrals_of_logarithmic_functions
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17:25:48 <boily> what's the rules for integrating a function composition? in this case int from 0 to N of g(f(x)) dx, where g(x) = ln x and f(x) = x + 1.
17:26:00 <Taneb> Sorry for stupid'ing
17:26:11 <kmc> Taneb: if you aren't allowed to assume these rules, maybe you can integrate by parts
17:26:14 <kmc> as in http://www.math.com/tables/integrals/more/ln.htm
17:26:49 <Taneb> Thanks, I'll go with that
17:26:57 <kmc> boily: I don't think there is a general one
17:27:30 <boily> integration by parts is evil, but not as evil as coordinate substitution.
17:27:45 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitution_rule
17:29:30 <boily> something like that. like, you have shapes defined with spherical coordinates, and you need to convert that to cartesian.
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17:49:42 <boily> Taneb has disconnected. that vicious integral got the better of him, it seems.
17:56:28 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, going to try to re-watch that Farscape episode
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18:07:48 <Sgeo> I'd like to watch some hard sci-fi at some point
18:11:27 <Bike> there are hard sci-fi tv shows?
18:12:22 <Bike> you could watch Solaris, I guess, but it's like three hours long and Russian
18:12:35 <elliott> working without functional extensionality is the definition of pain
18:13:10 <boily> a book doesn't count as being watchable?
18:13:27 <Fiora> ghost in the shell: stand alone complex is fun hard(?) scifi
18:13:31 <kmc> i watched a book for hours but it didn't do shit :(
18:13:46 <Fiora> I've heard good things about planetes as far as hard scifi goes but I need to see that
18:14:06 <Bike> oh planetes is cool
18:14:13 <boily> planetes is cool indeed.
18:14:26 <Bike> when i thik of hard sci fi i mostly think of weird shit like anything Egan writes, though
18:14:40 <Fiora> actually wow I really do need to see it
18:14:42 <Fiora> maybe after gundam00
18:14:58 <boily> `learn bookwatching is when you conflagrate birdwatching and the books used to identify them in the same object.
18:15:40 <Fiora> patlabor is also a realistic scifi series but it's much more 20 minutes into the future and not quite so serious (no cool spaceships or stuff)
18:19:15 <fizzie> I don't know if I'd have called GitS:SAC "hard", really.
18:19:34 <fizzie> I suppose those things are relative, though.
18:21:12 <fizzie> Except for the Mohs scale of sci-fi hardness, that's pretty absolute.
18:21:30 <fizzie> I think it's based on scratching a book with another book.
18:21:58 <Bike> GITS is a manga, that's usually softcover, it can't be very hard.
18:22:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, meanwhile farscape was a tv series from the early 2000s so logically it'd be a video cassette
18:23:13 <elliott> PH DVDs are pretty old.....
18:24:02 <Phantom_Hoover> pretty sure all the films i watched as a child were on cassette
18:24:55 <elliott> BUT farscape is 1993-2003 sez wp
18:24:58 <elliott> 2003 is kinda mid 2000s!!!
18:25:04 <Bike> DVDs are pretty hard but I think you could break them easily?
18:25:18 <Bike> Or scratch them.
18:25:24 <fizzie> "DVD-Video became the dominant form of home video distribution in Japan when it first went on sale in 1996, but did not become the dominant form of home video distribution in the United States until June 15, 2003, when weekly DVD-Video in the United States rentals began outnumbering weekly VHS cassette rentals, reflecting the rapid adoption rate of the technology in the U.S. marketplace."
18:26:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, but you could definitely scratch paper with a dvd
18:26:48 <Bike> But what about the covers?
18:27:28 <Phantom_Hoover> i think we're missing the real issue which is that elliott has somehow managed to confuse 1999 and 1993
18:27:45 <elliott> it's basically the same though
18:28:45 <FreeFull> elliott: in 1993, I didn't exist
18:28:47 <boily> the nineties never existed. it is a conspiracy deployed by the government. you can go straight from 1989 to 2000 without a single significant second having ever occured.
18:29:33 <Bike> Get off my lawn.
18:32:14 <elliott> probably 4 or 5 or something
18:32:28 <elliott> it's kind of tricky to work out how old you are i think
18:32:34 <elliott> it would be easy if months didn't exist
18:33:43 <elliott> well that's hard to remember because you're so much more terrible
18:34:21 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm pretty sure if you get more terrible than you you wrap back around to good
18:35:10 <boily> I feel old seeing y'all being young'uns in 1999. I was ten at that time.
18:36:09 * Bike aims shotgun at elliott
18:36:49 <elliott> boily: wait I mentally assumed you were like fizzie's age
18:36:57 <elliott> I guess that is my instinctive reaction to weird foreign people!!!
18:37:20 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: I wouldn't call myself a big one. I was kinda scrawny, and still vaguely am.
18:37:36 <boily> elliott: I'm not weird, I'm not foreign, and how old is fizzie really&
18:39:01 <fizzie> I'm not the oldest thing around here.
18:39:24 <fizzie> (And won't be for over a month!)
18:40:26 <fizzie> I am seriously still 29, as far as I know.
18:40:39 <elliott> i kinda parse fizzie as almost-but-not-quite-30
18:40:46 <elliott> not sure he makes sense to be 30
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18:44:58 <elliott> it's true fizzie would be a fantastic dad
18:47:47 <Fiora> fizzie: yeah, people can probably debate for ages what 'hard' means :P
18:48:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: come on cpressey is an old man
18:48:09 <elliott> he definitely fits the bill
18:48:44 <elliott> he's like at least 25 billion years old
18:48:46 * c00kiemon5ter oO(hard is the hearts of people not sharing their cookies with me)
18:49:29 <Bike> So roughly 25 fizzies.
18:50:56 <Sgeo> I don't know whether to feel old or young
18:51:20 <Fiora> Sgeo: toy story came out over 15 years ago
18:52:03 <Bike> stop lying fiora
18:52:13 <Bike> i'm still pretty much ten!!
18:52:22 <boily> lunchtime is doubly perceptive.
18:53:06 <c00kiemon5ter> anyway, nowadays we have been having the time cube
18:54:04 <boily> there really is a wikipédia article on any subject. even the time cube.
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18:55:13 <monqy> that's a lot of years
18:55:15 <fungot> c00kiemon5ter: no no no. how would i get a wrong answer
18:55:47 <Bike> elliott: p. sure 17 is above 15
18:55:53 <c00kiemon5ter> fungot, one is a demonic religious lie, one - does not exist, except in death state.
18:55:54 <fungot> c00kiemon5ter: like unlambda. the square is circled, the fnord
18:56:19 <Bike> fungot, why are your hapaxes fnorded again?
18:56:20 <fungot> Bike: i find that rather silly, actually apparently i've totalled more than 20k typed in the manifest there is no simple, portable module system? ( as suggested by alan bawden in 1996. others can move their own creations ahead, but keep in mind
18:56:57 <Bike> http://tunes.org/wiki/alan_20bawden.html k
18:57:38 <c00kiemon5ter> ending with "but keep in mind" sounds like Yoda-speech :D
19:10:53 <nooodl> nah, toy story 1 is only 81 minutes long
19:12:16 <boily> nooodl: cf. c00kiemon5ter and time perception.
19:15:25 <Phantom_Hoover> (i once knew someone who seemed to measure time by the yardstick of pregnancy)
19:16:20 <boily> which means that a year is ~1.35 babies.
19:20:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i believe the rough quote was "3 months? If I got pregnant now I'd be 3 months pregnant by the time it arrived!"
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19:37:15 <Sgeo> I guess http://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoInterpreters doesn't have room for compilers?
19:37:28 <monqy> is this about trustfuck
19:39:12 <AnotherTest> Sgeo: I guess that's why it's called EsoInterpreters rather than EsoCompilers
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19:47:35 <AnotherTest> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Amelia that's new
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20:12:49 <boily> AnotherTest: that's short, too.
20:14:53 <Snowyowl> Is there any decent software for drawing 2D "ascii art", that could be used to write Befunge source code?
20:18:39 <boily> jave is good. I wonder if it is still in active development...
20:19:21 <boily> nothing new since 2010, but still: http://www.jave.de/
20:20:01 <oerjan> <ion> http://www.coinheist.com/rubik/a_regular_crossword/ [...] <-- looks fun
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20:20:24 * oerjan wioll haven imported into paint program
20:20:41 <nooodl> i solved a regular crossword in february
20:20:50 <boily> what's a wioll haven?
20:21:03 <nooodl> http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~param/quotes/guide.html
20:21:10 <oerjan> see dr streetmentioner's famous grammar
20:23:10 <boily> thanks. maintenant j'aurai avoir eu compris.
20:23:27 <boily> (got to love those French verbs. they're like lego blocks, but with more exceptions!)
20:24:34 <nooodl> i'll have had understood. english verbs are lego blocky too!
20:24:52 <nooodl> maybe in a more boring way, though
20:25:00 <Bike> less pretty to pronounce
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20:25:35 <nooodl> "been" sounds so awful. c'mon, english
20:25:45 <boily> your exceptions are less interesting and of a lower quality :p
20:27:19 <Bike> imo the best part of english verbs is that a good amount of them are conjugated in a completely different way from the rest
20:27:41 <Bike> i ran back to france but they didn't want me
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20:37:12 <nooodl> well the french ones are kinda mine technically
20:37:25 <nooodl> the english language definitely isn't
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20:38:58 <nooodl> boily mentioned "[my] exceptions" when i talked about english verb conjugations, but actually closer to french than to english (i'm belgiumian)
20:39:12 <nooodl> *but i'm actually closer to
20:39:24 <Bike> oh. i don't know anything about belgian
20:39:58 <Bike> ...such as that it no longer exists, ok
20:41:14 <nooodl> oh yeah the Belgian Language isn't a thing
20:41:32 <nooodl> what i'm actually saying is: half of belgium speaks dutch and the other half speaks french
20:41:44 <nooodl> while i'm from the dutch-speaking part, pretty much everyone is expected to know french
20:42:07 <Bike> are the francophones expected to know dutch?
20:43:07 <nooodl> not really. their secondary schools usually teach either english or dutch, students get to choose
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20:43:21 <nooodl> and pretty much nobody picks dutch because english is Super Cool
20:43:41 <nooodl> us dutch-speaking belgians really like complaining about all the effort we put into learning our neighbours' language while we don't get anything in return!
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20:44:39 <nooodl> historically, french was the language of the elite in belgium, too. only the plebeians spoke dutch
20:45:10 <nooodl> there were political parties called "taalpartijen" (language parties) that just rebelled against the oppression of dutch speakers!
20:45:26 <nooodl> eventually dutch became a Real Official Language
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20:48:18 <nooodl> speaking of: dutch is a really horrible language when it comes to verbs. (it's a lot like german)
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20:48:32 <boily> the infamous V2 alignment.
20:48:42 <nooodl> ask elliott about Ziet!!!
20:49:09 <nooodl> oh yes the V2 alignment is pretty great too
20:49:21 <nooodl> (is dutch the only language that does anything like it?)
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20:51:02 <nooodl> wow turns out V2 word order is crazy
20:52:30 <oerjan> what is V2 alignment? that thing of putting subordinate verbs usually last?
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20:53:15 <nooodl> V2 alignment is where the verb of the main clause is always in the second place
20:53:29 <myname> what's the problem with that?
20:53:33 <nooodl> "the kids / PLAYED / in the garden / today"
20:53:39 <nooodl> "in the garden / PLAYED / the kids / today"
20:53:42 <oerjan> oh right. norwegian has that too, but not the subordinate last placement
20:53:48 <boily> “Dit boek las ik gesteren”.
20:53:54 * boily shudders in abject terror
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20:54:33 <nooodl> it's common to hear native dutch speakers say stuff like "this book read i yesterday" when speaking "dunglish"
20:54:40 <oerjan> so it doesn't sound weird to me. well a _bit_, we don't switch objects first that often.
20:55:13 <Bike> may i suggest a better name than "dunglish"
20:55:14 <oerjan> "Denne boka leste jeg i går." yep perfectly normal.
20:55:23 <myname> nooodl: that's strange
20:55:24 <Bike> like, anything
20:55:42 <myname> do dutch dub movies and tv shows?
20:55:53 <oerjan> nooodl: so basically it's probably all germanic languages _except_ english >:)
20:55:55 <nooodl> myname: luckily, no, not often
20:56:09 <nooodl> only stuff like nickolodeon cartoons
20:56:16 <nooodl> otherwise we prefer subtitles
20:56:21 <boily> «J'ai lu ce livre hier.» "He leído este libro ayer."
20:56:28 <myname> nooodl: i had a discussion about germany being a rare exception in dubbing everything
20:56:33 <myname> never realized it before
20:56:45 <boily> dubbing policy is completely different in France than here.
20:56:55 <boily> they even subtitle movies from Québec!
20:56:56 <myname> nontheless, i'd never say something like "the book read i yesterday"
20:57:25 <Bike> would you if you were trying to imitate Yoda
20:57:31 <myname> nooodl: shouldn't you be better in english in this case?
20:57:52 <oerjan> norwegian has this little subtlety in subordinate clauses that you can often detect good, but not perfect non-native speakers with: certain adverbs suddenly come before the verb instead of after. but the verb still comes before lot of stuff.
20:58:30 <nooodl> myname: young people are generally pretty good at english
20:58:41 <oerjan> "Jeg har ikke lest den boka" - i haven't read that book. "Jeg sa at jeg ikke har lest den boka." - i said that i haven't read that book.
20:59:18 <nooodl> back in the day there was a lot less influence from english media so old people still say adorable things like that
21:00:09 <olsner> oerjan: we have the same thing, but I didn't realize it was a subtlety
21:00:13 <myname> nooodl: i see, i can think of germans doing that, too
21:00:22 <nooodl> boily: haha, we've actually done something similar
21:00:35 <myname> but i think germans are more known for that become/get issue
21:00:51 <nooodl> until like 2005-ish, tv shows and movies in "dutch dutch" (dutch from the netherlands) got subtitled
21:01:10 <nooodl> and it was controversial. some dutch people felt we were poking fun at them for their "weird" accent
21:01:17 <nooodl> so these days they're gone :')
21:03:36 <nooodl> oerjan: that sounds awful
21:06:28 <boily> nooodl: on Monday nights, there's this thing called Douteux: http://douteux.org/
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21:07:04 <boily> we get to see weird and strange and wtfing extracts from various excerpts and random stuff.
21:07:33 <boily> when we stumble on something from België, we often have multiple subtiles in both Dutch and French, with a voiceover in english.
21:07:39 <boily> the end-effect is surprising.
21:07:47 <boily> Arc_Koen: bonsoir!
21:08:02 <nooodl> cinemas here tend to be bilingual too
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21:08:29 <nooodl> so you're watching an english movie with dutch subtitles and french subtitles...
21:08:34 <Arc_Koen> I'm just coming back from the cinema
21:08:58 <Arc_Koen> the director told us to cancel one of the two films because they had (AGAIN) heating problems
21:09:16 <Arc_Koen> well the spectators weren't happy about it
21:09:44 <Arc_Koen> we had that one guy explaining to us how he had just walked 20 minutes in the snow, despite his (very) old age, to see that movie
21:09:58 <nooodl> that sounds pretty cool
21:10:03 <Arc_Koen> sometimes they call me for weekends and I get paid
21:10:27 <Arc_Koen> so the director told him he could not have spectators watch a film in the cold
21:10:36 <Arc_Koen> and the guy "I SURVIVED THE WAR I DON'T CARE IF IT'S COLD"
21:11:03 <Arc_Koen> especially since the new projectionist is a very pretty girl
21:11:45 <nooodl> it's comforting to hear it's snowing over there too (what the HELL is that about)
21:12:08 <Sgeo> Clinical strength head&shoulders smells bad
21:12:15 <Arc_Koen> I usually go to the cinema with my bike
21:12:44 <Arc_Koen> and I usually don't mind biking in the snow
21:13:17 <Arc_Koen> this was my first time alone in a car AND THERE WAS THAT FREAKY SNOW EVERYWHERE
21:14:08 <boily> snow is not freaky, it loves you, hugs you, and wants you to be their forever.
21:14:21 <boily> hm. ok. well, snow can be a little bit freaky.
21:15:04 <Arc_Koen> one of the cars in front of me stopped in a rising road
21:15:15 <Arc_Koen> (is that how you call that? a route going up)
21:15:57 <Arc_Koen> I thought I was doing something wrong, but after a while it was clear it was the snow
21:16:25 <Arc_Koen> and because of me the car behind me got stuck too
21:16:39 <Arc_Koen> after a while I managed to drive again but they didn't :)
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21:19:21 <nooodl> i should fill some esointerpreters gap
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21:21:56 <nooodl> unefunge is just befunge without ^ v and |?
21:22:11 <nooodl> oh, and g and p commands having one less argument
21:22:44 <nooodl> it doesn't seem to be described anywhere on the internet, at the moment...
21:22:55 <Deewiant> http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/doc/funge98.html
21:23:20 <nooodl> ooh unefunge is based on Funge-98 not Funge-93
21:25:48 <nooodl> that makes it a lot tougher to implement...
21:26:14 <Arc_Koen> because funge-98 is a lot tougher than funge-93
21:26:20 <Taneb> nooodl, at the same time, it's just a tape
21:26:38 <nooodl> yes but you have to deal with a lot of funge-98's extra stuff
21:26:45 <Arc_Koen> Taneb: yeah, but a tape with a crazy Lahey space
21:26:52 <elliott> lahey space isn't really that crazy
21:27:29 <nooodl> and i was planning to write it in golfscript... the longer that gets the more unwritable it gets, too
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21:29:14 <myname> what's the problem with lahey space?
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21:36:14 <Arc_Koen> myname: it's not quite a torus that's what
21:36:54 <Arc_Koen> so, I just wanted to make a joke, because in one dimension, it's exactly the same as a torus
21:36:58 <myname> if direction = right and cell = last: newcell = first
21:37:01 <oerjan> <boily> what's the rules for integrating a function composition? in this case int from 0 to N of g(f(x)) dx, where g(x) = ln x and f(x) = x + 1.
21:37:14 <oerjan> messy. but when f is linear it's easy.
21:37:57 <oerjan> (basically you try substituting what's inside, but in the general case it's just luck whether that makes it easier or not.)
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21:38:53 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: ok ok but what formula do I type in my calculator??
21:40:12 <oerjan> presumably there's some syntax for integrating a function
21:42:54 <nooodl> i'm glad wolfram alpha forces me to log into it with facebook these days.
21:44:23 <oerjan> afaiu the kind of integration you can do without massive theory is essentially just running differentiation backwards and hoping the pieces fit together, which they'll do if it's a school test. hth.
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21:45:18 <Arc_Koen> so it's exactly the same method as the one we used to solve a polynom in prepschool
21:45:35 <oerjan> and the massive theory gives you the added option of "we can prove this integral has no expression in the functions you know."
21:46:23 <nooodl> "massive theory" sounds like a great band name... but it probably just reminds me of "massive attack"
21:46:37 <nooodl> which also makes it a worse band name
21:47:07 <Bike> imagine massive attack doing a cover of the big bang theory soundtrack
21:47:36 <elliott> oerjan: why is integration terrible
21:47:40 <elliott> derivatives are pretty nice
21:47:48 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risch_algorithm
21:47:50 <elliott> but then there's integration and it's all whoah i cant let this be easy 4 u lol
21:47:56 <elliott> gonna shit all in your symmetry
21:48:08 <oerjan> well i've read the saying "differentiation is a handcraft, integration is an art"
21:48:47 <Bike> i like half-integration
21:48:53 <Bike> i forget how impossible it is, probably p. impossible
21:49:30 <oerjan> istr reading even mathematica doesn't implement the full risch algorithm.
21:49:40 <oerjan> although maybe they've done that later
21:49:42 <Bike> well do you ever need it
21:50:08 <Bike> how often do you want to integrate inverse sine of a polynomial over double exponentiation of inversion
21:50:36 <Arc_Koen> (oerjan: I don't know what you did to my brain, but everyday you use new four~five letter acronyms, and everyday I understand them)
21:50:36 <oerjan> of course mathematica doesn't restrict the answer to elementary functions, which means it cannot use just the Risch algorithm anyhow.
21:50:37 <nooodl> i just looked up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_integrals_of_rational_functions and i feel like vomiting now
21:51:01 <Bike> let me tell you about secant cubed
21:51:21 <nooodl> i can't imagine people using these formulae
21:51:33 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral_of_secant_cubed i love that there's a fucking article for this though
21:52:14 <boily> you brought back repressed memories of CÉGEP. I do not thank you.
21:52:43 <Arc_Koen> "classes élémentaires aux grandes écoles préparatoires"?
21:52:54 <Arc_Koen> it sounds like you got the right words but in the wrong order
21:53:10 <oerjan> elliott: on the plus side, _numerical_ integration is easier than numerical differentiation
21:53:59 <oerjan> oh god the housemate and his visitor came _back_ again
21:54:36 <boily> Arc_Koen: Collège d'Enseignement Général Et Professionnel. it goes after high school and before university.
21:55:07 <oerjan> nope. i fear they'll be doing gaming
21:55:22 <oerjan> or maybe movie watching
21:55:23 <boily> a very clever decoy to lead exchange students astray.
21:55:24 <elliott> oerjan: but automatic differentiation is easier still. :(
21:55:52 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: i'm pretty sure i've used "istr" many times.
21:56:13 <boily> shachaf: you need to mash the «o» and «e» key really fast together to produce œrjan.
21:56:18 <Arc_Koen> now that you mention it istr so, yes
21:56:21 <nooodl> today i used istr and i think i picked it up here...
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22:00:51 <kmc> hi shachaf
22:00:54 <kmc> where does it rain
22:36:27 <Sgeo> I should go do something interview related
22:36:57 <Sgeo> Arc_Koen, I do need to eat dinner
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22:47:50 <nooodl> wow i made a turing machine that implements H9+
22:47:57 <nooodl> and it's a little over 9000 states
22:48:29 <oerjan> <boily> `learn bookwatching is when you conflagrate birdwatching and the books used to identify them in the same object.
22:48:37 <oerjan> i think you conflagrated another word there
22:49:02 <Bike> ooh is that where you make a portmanteau and then light it on fire
22:49:32 <nooodl> http://bpaste.net/show/J1D5SWaK8h4avDKJr3Mq/ -- works for http://morphett.info/turing/turing.html
22:49:47 <nooodl> oerjan: at first i thought "ugh Q is going to be hard" but now that i think about it it should be fun
22:50:28 <oerjan> nooodl: wait, 9000 states?
22:50:31 <nooodl> anyway, the only reason i wrote this is: prove that a UTM can execute a H9+ program (read: copy one of two strings based on some input symbols)
22:51:03 <oerjan> > length "99 bottles of beer on the wall, 99 bottles of beer. take one down, pass it around, 99 bottles of beer on the wall!" * 100
22:51:22 <oerjan> i guess that _is_ shorter than just writing it directly :P
22:51:53 <oerjan> wait, you _did_ just insert the whole text? :P
22:52:11 <nooodl> how else did you expect it to become 9000 states big :o
22:52:24 <oerjan> i was wondering if it was plausible without it
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22:53:04 <nooodl> anyway, removing the spaces is just an annoying thing i had to do because this javascript turing machine simulator doesn't differentiate between an "ascii space" symbol and blank symbol
22:53:41 <nooodl> i kinda want to add this to the http://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoInterpreters chain, behind "UTM"
22:54:34 <oerjan> wait you mean i started this.
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22:56:45 <oerjan> i just added that chain yesterday :P
22:56:53 <nooodl> someone linked it in here today
22:57:17 <nooodl> i was gonna extend it by implenting unefunge in something, but it felt like a lot of work
22:57:21 <nooodl> so i did this instead!
22:57:58 <oerjan> yeah as a general rule the chains stop because the things on the left are too hard to implement, and the things on the right are too hard to implement anything with :)
22:58:12 <nooodl> i don't know if i should append this to the chain
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22:59:10 <nooodl> also an idea: there's been basic -> brainfuck converters or something, haven't there? that might be a way to insert something between brainfuck and bub
22:59:22 <oerjan> hm that Bub -> UTM link is broken, it's one of Nthern's ones.
22:59:39 <oerjan> nooodl: well we only count esolangs in that table
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23:00:36 <nooodl> so, implementing anything as a turing machine isn't an option
23:00:45 <nooodl> because there isn't an "UTM" row?
23:00:58 <oerjan> we consider UTM's close enough.
23:01:10 <oerjan> however i assume it's just using his Bub converter on the BF -> UTM conversion
23:01:30 <oerjan> which means it's the same as the whirl ones, which have strikethroughs
23:02:01 <oerjan> nooodl: a more serious problem is that what's implemented is _a_ universal turing machine, not all turing machines directly.
23:02:43 <oerjan> which should, admittedly be just a matter of inserting an extra step, by the definition of universal turing machine.
23:03:45 <nooodl> maybe "UTM" shouldn't be on this page at all
23:03:53 <nooodl> because it's not really a language
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23:05:06 <nooodl> a flogscript implementation of unefunge is "really easy" but it'd just take some time. writing flogscript is annoying as hell
23:05:22 <nooodl> solution: get zzo38 to do it
23:07:25 <oerjan> so far the only cycle is the Bub -> Brainfuck one, which basically exists because the languages are nearly trivially equivalent and brainfuck has a self-interpreter.
23:09:24 <oerjan> another idea i just had was if there were a fueue interpretation in unlambda, then that would give a longer path from intercal.
23:09:56 <ais523> unlambda isn't hard to write
23:09:59 <ais523> it's just a pain to read or eit
23:10:15 -!- augur has joined.
23:10:32 <ais523> most write-only language I know
23:11:41 <oerjan> oh hm unlambda isn't good at handling bytes.
23:13:06 <oerjan> oh i forgot to add the Emmental -> Underload one...
23:13:12 <ais523> indeed, although you can get around it using ASCII tables
23:13:40 <oerjan> you need those for I/O anyway.
23:13:41 <ais523> does fueue deal with ascii codes?
23:14:07 <ais523> something like underload in unlambda wouldn't need an ASCII table, because you can treat characters as opaque values in unlambda
23:14:27 <oerjan> indeed. i've been considering underload in unlambda before.
23:14:51 <ais523> I'm not sure that unlambda programs are so interesting
23:14:54 <ais523> programming /techniques/ are
23:15:08 <ais523> but given that you can't read them, there's not a lot of benefit to them existing
23:15:11 <ais523> except to prove a point
23:15:40 * Sgeo renames Trustfuck to Braintrust
23:15:42 <nooodl> i hear unlambda is a lot like lazy k
23:16:00 <oerjan> Sgeo: REFLECTIONS ON FUCKING FUCK, I SAID
23:16:22 <nooodl> and there's kind of a scheme -> lazy k converter, apparently
23:16:37 <oerjan> there's a scheme -> unlambda too
23:17:37 <nooodl> (is that what ais523 meant by unlambda being "easy to write")
23:17:53 <ais523> nooodl: yeah, it's easy to compile into
23:18:01 <ais523> even by hand, as long as you don't make typos
23:18:09 <ais523> (because it's unreadable, if you do make a typo, you're unlikely to ever find it)
23:18:16 <shachaf> It's also easy to compile from!
23:18:21 <shachaf> Therefore readable. Right?
23:20:45 <nooodl> The combinatory representation, (S (K (S I)) (S (K K) I)) is much longer than the representation as a lambda term, λx.λy.(y x). This is typical. In general, the T[ ] construction may expand a lambda term of length n to a combinatorial term of length Θ(3n)[citation needed].
23:21:03 <nooodl> (whoops, that's Theta(3^n))
23:21:12 <nooodl> anyway who wrote this, ugh
23:21:48 <nooodl> do lambda terms even have a "length"
23:23:03 <Bike> you could define a half-reasonable one, i guess, or just use textual length
23:23:45 <oerjan> nooodl: if you're going _really_ deep, there's a way to do it linearly instead
23:25:28 <oerjan> (pass the arguments as a list, and refer them by indexing the list with the deBruijn index)
23:26:59 <oerjan> nooodl: any half-reasonable one will be the same when you ignore constant factors, as theta does.
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23:28:25 <oerjan> of course much of the design of my unlambda self-interpreter was how to factor functions into bits that _didn't_ combinatorially blow up.
23:29:05 <fungot> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
23:30:47 <Sgeo> ^list is for MSPA
23:32:11 <shachaf> Well, please arrange for an olist update.
23:33:09 <Sgeo> `echo bin/slist
23:33:17 <Sgeo> `cat bin/slist
23:33:25 <Sgeo> I should fix that
23:33:47 <shachaf> Who vandaliszed the liszt?
23:33:56 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, a while ago, iir`
23:34:02 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
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23:36:04 <Sgeo> yes I can http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/16641639a4cf
23:36:39 <Sgeo> I don't know how to revert :(
23:36:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rv: not found
23:37:08 <elliott> that reverts the entire hackego state.
23:37:38 <elliott> undo undoes a single commit.
23:41:33 <HackEgo> patching file slist \ Hunk #1 FAILED at 1. \ 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- saving rejects to file slist.rej
23:42:18 <Sgeo> `echo "echo Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot" > bin/slist
23:42:20 <HackEgo> "echo Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot" > bin/slist
23:42:33 <Sgeo> `run echo "echo Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot" > bin/slist
23:43:38 <shachaf> Sgeo: We don't do lists that way anymore...
23:44:18 <shachaf> `run for n in Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot; do echo $n >> bin/slist; done
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00:13:58 <Sgeo> Um. Wikipedia's down.
00:14:23 <Sgeo> er, thought it was. Weird.
00:14:37 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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00:52:09 <kmc> FreeFull: yup
00:52:23 <kmc> it has been observed
00:57:32 * Sgeo wonders if kmc has yet been subjected to my horrible Haskell pun
00:59:19 <Sgeo> What did Goldilocks say when she say Maybe (b -> Either a b)?
01:03:04 <Sgeo> It's Just Right!
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01:37:46 <oerjan> Sgeo: i'm sure i've heard that a long time ago, although i cannot recall if you were the one who told it.
01:42:38 <Sgeo> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/index.php?title=Humor/Goldilocks&action=history
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01:45:22 <Bike> is there seriously a humor section
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01:48:26 <Bike> also why is return called return, it doesn't seem remotely like any return i've heard of even in IO do
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01:51:33 <oerjan> i guess, on occasion, when placed at the end of a function, it has a slightly analogous role.
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02:03:20 <kmc> yeah it is one of the most confusing names you could pick
02:03:59 <kmc> there isn't necessarily a great alternative, but there are alternatives which don't come with misleading existing meaning
02:05:53 <Bike> i see "unit" a lot or like at all i guess
02:06:03 <kmc> one thing I learned from Haskell is that people will complain if you use crazy math words like monad, but they'll also complain if you use familiar words in a slightly different way
02:06:08 <kmc> you can't win
02:06:14 <Bike> also another dumb haskell question
02:06:23 <Bike> what's wrong with «dumbTest x = do { y <- assocValue x [(4,5),(7,8)]; z <- 10 + y; z }», it says I'm asking for Num (Maybe a)
02:06:33 <kmc> what's assocValue
02:06:41 <Bike> (Eq key) => key -> [(key,value)] -> Maybe value
02:06:45 <kmc> anyway the problem is «z <- 10 + y» i think
02:06:55 <kmc> maybe you wanted «let z = 10 + y»
02:07:00 <Sgeo> Also the z right after it
02:07:16 <kmc> right, that should become «return z» but then it's not necessary at all
02:07:27 <kmc> rather you would write do { y <- assocValue ...; return (10 + y) }
02:07:55 <Bike> hm, so i guess <- doesn't do what i thought it did
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02:07:57 <kmc> Bike: in «x <- e», e :: M a, and x :: a
02:08:09 <kmc> because it's sugar for «e >>= (\x -> ...)»
02:08:17 <kmc> and (>>=) :: M a -> (a -> M b) -> M b
02:08:56 <Bike> ok, i think i see.
02:09:07 <kmc> so it wants «10 + y» to be Maybe something
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02:14:24 <Bike> so i can write it without do as «dumbTest x = (assocValue x [(4,5),(7,8)]) >>= (return . (+ 10))». sensible enough
02:14:57 <kmc> but additionally
02:15:21 <kmc> «e >>= (return . f)» is equivalent to «fmap f e»
02:15:32 <Bike> ooh, i tried fmap earlier but it barfed
02:15:36 <kmc> or «f <$> e» if you prefer the infix operators from Control.Applicative
02:15:51 <elliott> Bike: you have way extraneous parens there
02:15:53 <kmc> i would still use return on the last line of a do, sometimes, depending on what makes it most readable
02:16:01 <elliott> you can elim the ones around the assocValue expression without even knowing relative precedences
02:16:03 <Bike> elliott: i am aware
02:16:07 <elliott> by the function application binds tightest (modulo record syntax) rule
02:16:08 <kmc> i would keep the others
02:16:27 <elliott> i would eliminate the other parens by not doing >>= return . :p
02:16:58 <Bike> dumbTest x = fmap (+ 10) (assocValue x [(4,5),(7,8)])
02:17:02 <Bike> it's like i really know haskell
02:23:17 <elliott> dumbTest x = (+ 10) <$> assocValue x [(4,5),(7,8)] -- death to parens
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02:54:52 <tromp__> anyone know how to include graphics in reddit comments?
02:55:52 <oerjan> i think you can only include graphics that have been enabled by the subreddit moderators
02:56:49 <oerjan> (the ones i've seen have always been choices from a list of pictures)
03:00:30 <oerjan> elliott: (+ 10) has parens hth
03:01:06 <elliott> oerjan: if only addition was infix.
03:01:46 <oerjan> > subtract . negate 10 $ 42
03:01:48 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> a))
03:01:48 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity chec...
03:02:10 <oerjan> :t subtract . negate 10
03:02:13 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Num (f a), Num a) => f (a -> a)
03:02:58 <Bike> it's (Num b, Num (a -> b)) => a -> b -> b locally, clearly this is what you meant
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03:03:13 <oerjan> > subtract `id` negate 10 $ 42
03:03:24 <oerjan> there you go, no parentheses needed
03:03:31 <Bike> mixfix clearly forms a monoid.
03:07:24 <Bike> radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab*, good filename
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03:11:56 <Sgeo> oerjan, it works by each subreddit customizing the CSS
03:12:04 <Sgeo> I should be sleeping 12 minutes ago
03:12:07 <Sgeo> Interview etc. etc.
03:12:19 <Sgeo> Except I can't stop thinking about OI
03:12:48 <Sgeo> And before elliott screams that OI doesn't work, I'd love to really understand what it is exactly that doesn't work.
03:13:01 <oerjan> oh dear. starting to think about abstract things just before bed? _bad_ move.
03:13:53 <Bike> He just stares disapprovingly, communicating the information in subtle microsaccades.
03:14:47 <lambdabot> *** "saccade" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
03:14:47 <lambdabot> n 1: a rapid, jerky movement of the eyes between positions of
03:14:47 <lambdabot> 2: an abrupt spasmodic movement [syn: {jerk}, {jerking}, {jolt},
03:15:18 <oerjan> so, being a jerk about it?
03:15:25 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsaccade
03:18:15 <elliott> Sgeo: i was going to tell you you haven't updated the language list for your rename. however it is not on there at all.
03:20:32 <Sgeo> So many languages that begin with brain :(
03:20:57 <Sgeo> Also it's less googleable now
03:21:09 <Bike> sgeo's new language, mindshit
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03:32:14 <Sgeo> WeThePeop. WeThePope
03:32:54 <oerjan> there may, or may not, be a pope.
03:33:12 <oerjan> most likely there isn't.
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03:34:29 <Bike> oh, they're still 'claving
03:52:55 <kmc> 'The tradition dates back to 1268, when after nearly three years of deliberation the cardinals had still not agreed on a new pope, prompting the people of Rome to hurry things up by locking them up and cutting their rations.'
03:53:38 <Bike> papal politics are the best
03:55:23 <Bike> "Gregory's election came as a complete surprise to him, partially because it happened while he was engaged in the Ninth Crusade at Acre with King Edward I of England in Israel."
03:56:30 <Bike> "As a result of the length of the election, during which three of the twenty cardinal-electors died and one resigned,"
03:57:17 <ais523> is there any risk of the cardinals actually starving to death during the conclave
03:57:20 <ais523> or are they given enough to live on?
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03:57:44 <Bike> they get rations
03:57:44 <coppro> Nowadays they are given enough to survive
03:57:51 <coppro> but after a time it goes down to just bread and water iirc
03:58:30 <kmc> incentive!
03:58:40 <oerjan> well it _is_ lent, anyhow.
03:58:51 <coppro> oerjan: we'll find out pretty quickly when there is a pope
03:58:59 <coppro> unless they screw up the smoke again like in the sixties
03:59:42 <madbr> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGBHfXPqbgI
04:06:56 <coppro> oerjan: yeah, it was when they stopped using sealed ballots
04:07:19 <coppro> they previously used damp straw to make the smoke black
04:07:39 <coppro> but it turned out that the sealing wax was a vital component in the reaction as well
04:07:54 <coppro> so the first smoke was gray, much to everyone's confusion
04:08:28 <coppro> after that they started using chemicals to color the smoke
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04:13:56 <Bike> what's shakin'
04:14:15 <monqy> what is this slang
04:16:22 <madbr> ok let's see this... trying to make a replacement for chip8, so I'm making a RISC cpu ripoff
04:18:06 <madbr> all instructions can take either format 1 (reg, reg, reg), or format 2 (reg, reg, immediate)
04:18:11 <madbr> math: add/sub/mul/cmp/cmu
04:18:12 <madbr> logic: and/or/xor/shl/shr/sar
04:18:57 <Bike> from the makers of chip8 come this new architecture with all your favorite characters!
04:19:04 <Bike> mmix is knuth's thing
04:20:27 <madbr> trying to minimize opcodes
04:21:19 <madbr> going for 32 bits too
04:22:01 <coppro> MMIX is intended to be a hypothetical fully-functional assembly language
04:22:16 <coppro> it has virtual memory, floating point, etc.
04:22:23 <coppro> predictive branching even
04:22:39 <madbr> don't care about virtual memory
04:22:48 <madbr> though floating point could be nice
04:23:01 <Bike> hm, didn't know it had branch prediction
04:23:12 <Bike> wonder if the early volumes are ever coming out again -_-
04:24:42 <madbr> it will also need a calling convention... I'll probably just rip off ARM's convention for that
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04:26:03 <coppro> apparently someone's implemented MMIX in verilog; neat
04:26:12 <madbr> "arguments in registers #,#,#,# stack pointer in register # return address in register # you can overwrite registers #### but you have to save registers ####"
04:27:42 <madbr> I guess I also need a drawing function, some input reading function, a buffer flip/vsync function, and something to play sfx/music
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04:36:36 * coppro downloads mmixware to tablet
04:42:33 <madbr> hmm, I could make pixel data just like other data
04:43:02 <madbr> but then I'd probably need a byte load/store function (and byte addressing instead of word)
04:44:21 <Bike> only 256 color, huh
04:44:46 <madbr> yeah 256 color is fun
04:44:53 <madbr> though it sucks for transparency
04:44:56 <kmc> are you designing a small CPU for writing demos?
04:45:19 <madbr> kmc : trying to come up with something retarded simple yet useful to replace chip8
04:45:25 <madbr> for games actually
04:47:16 <madbr> pros for 256: retro chic, palette effects are fun, can write 4 pixels at once
04:47:41 <madbr> cons: have to draw everything with the same palette, transparencies and lighting effects don't work too well
04:47:58 <madbr> also sucks for art that isn't drawn
04:49:25 <madbr> definitely ups the difficulty of deving for the platform too
04:49:59 <madbr> also makes hardware accelerated emulation of gfx hard
04:51:04 <kmc> you can switch palette on every scanline!
04:51:21 <madbr> I'm not sure I'm going to allow HDMA effects
04:52:02 <kmc> is that what it's called
04:52:12 <madbr> well, hdma is the SNES version
04:52:24 <madbr> horizontal blank dma or something
04:53:09 <madbr> you could call it copper effects too (amiga chip that does the same stuff)
05:03:14 <kmc> i know some microcomputers only run program code in the blanking intervals
05:03:20 <kmc> but I guess game consoles never worked that way
05:03:49 <madbr> costs a lot of cpu cycles
05:04:08 <madbr> I guess the 2600 sorta worked that way
05:04:26 <madbr> because the cpu had to update the gfx registers on each scanline
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05:16:32 <kmc> the Galaksija only runs the user program during the blank intervals
05:17:24 <kmc> while scanning the visible region, it runs a kind of dummy program and uses the Z80's DRAM refresh counter to index the character buffer
05:17:55 <Bike> is the Galaksija like the 80s version of a Galaxy Note
05:18:07 <kmc> the bytes of the dummy program also happen to make up string constants used by the BASIC interpreter
05:18:15 <kmc> Bike: yes and from yugoslavia
05:18:43 <kmc> "What country is this computer from?" "It... no longer exists."
05:20:27 <Bike> Good sales pitch if I ever heard one.
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05:46:52 <madbr> yay this fits in one switch/case
05:46:53 <madbr> http://pastebin.com/qkVskLAa
05:49:57 <kmc> hm, mul discards the high half of the result?
05:50:37 <kmc> also why is the halt instruction named 'vbl'
05:50:56 <madbr> wait 1/60th of a second :D
05:51:19 <madbr> (and let the rest of the machine read the picture to display from memory)
05:58:26 <madbr> it would probably just read the graphics in 320x200x32bit off some memory location every frame
05:58:46 <madbr> I think this is fast enough just to draw the frame buffer over on each frame
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06:01:19 <madbr> and for controls it could probaby just write the input state at some memory offset just before the vm is run
06:04:03 <madbr> but then no palette effects :(
06:04:15 <madbr> also transparency would be hard :(
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06:05:12 <madbr> well not had but kinda slow
06:05:44 <madbr> hmm maybe not even
06:07:05 <madbr> pixel = ((pixel & 0xfefefe) + (in & 0xfefefe)) >> 1;
06:08:40 <madbr> would be hard to do clamped colors though :(
06:10:06 <madbr> still need a way to handle sfx + music too
06:14:41 <Fiora> ooh, I see simd within a register
06:15:04 <madbr> yeah demoscene kinda trick :D
06:16:56 <madbr> or pixel = ((((pixel & 0xff00ff) * light) & 0xff00ff00) + (((pixel & 0xff00) * light) & 0xff0000)) >>> 8
06:17:39 <madbr> hmm I guess real simd would help there
06:18:12 <Fiora> for the average you have pavgb which is super fast
06:18:17 <Fiora> for the multiply.... hmmm
06:18:55 <Fiora> unpack to 16-bit then use pmulhrsw? pmulhw I guess if you don't really care about rounding
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06:19:09 <madbr> the best one was on ARM
06:19:16 <Fiora> interleave+pmaddubsw might be super nice if you need to add two
06:19:24 <Fiora> like pixA*lightA+pixB*lightB
06:19:38 <madbr> 16*16 mul, * 2 keep high word saturare 32768 to 32767
06:19:53 <madbr> 1 cycle throughput
06:20:47 <madbr> works on 4 shorts at the same time, doesn't change size or anything
06:21:11 <madbr> so you can effectively do 4 interpolations at the same time (for sound mixing)
06:23:34 <Fiora> I guess for something like that I guess I might try pmaddwd + packssdw?
06:33:13 <madbr> or maybe use 16bits and have SIMD operations that operate on 1:5:5:5:1:5:5:5 data :D
06:34:51 <Fiora> oh gosh that'd be nutty XD
06:36:02 <fizzie> Doesn't AltiVec do something slightly like that? I mean, it wasn't 1:5:5:5, but it has a RGB "pixel" datatype, the format of which I don't recall, and related operations.
06:36:20 <madbr> 5:6:5 is used sometimes too
06:36:41 <madbr> I don't recall anything using 4:4:4:4 tho
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06:37:55 <fizzie> It is a 16-bit RGB pixel format (of which there are 8 in the register), unless I completely misremember.
06:38:27 <madbr> oh man, worst idea
06:38:34 <fizzie> 8 16-bit pixels or 4 32-bit pixels, says one page, but does not go into detail.
06:38:55 <madbr> but with red/green/blue on separate video memory pages
06:39:17 <madbr> and 4:4:4:4:4:4:4:4 SIMD instructions :D
06:40:16 <madbr> though that would more or less torpedo pixel drawing stuff like particle effects
06:41:20 <madbr> with 4 bits per component and 2:1 undersampling on U and V
06:41:39 <madbr> so it's something like VYUYVYUY on each 32 bit word :D
06:45:28 <madbr> I think I can guess what altivec does.. something like expand the 1:5:5:5 pixels to 8:8:8:8
06:46:27 <pikhq> madbr: That 12 bit RGB thing sounds suspiciously like something VGA would do.
06:47:26 <madbr> more of a crazy amiga thing imho :D
06:47:54 <madbr> they had... I think it was a 6 bit format
06:47:59 <madbr> using bit planes ofc
06:48:16 <madbr> where color 0..15 = set red to 0..15
06:48:23 <madbr> 16..31 = set green to 0..15
06:48:31 <madbr> 32..47 = set blue to 0..15
06:48:43 <madbr> 48..63 = load from palette index 0..15
06:49:32 <madbr> they even came up with a 8bit version later on (giving roughly 18bit color...)
06:50:18 <madbr> of course some programs would also HDMA the palette so that it had optimal 16 colors for each scanline
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07:34:10 <fizzie> HAM (the thing described above) is such a screwy mode indeed.
07:40:38 <fizzie> And the AltiVec 16-bit pixel in fact *is* a 1:5:5:5 format.
07:42:49 <fizzie> There's a vec_packpx to pack a 4+4 (two SIMD registers) 8:8:8:8 pixels into 8 1:5:5:5 pixels by taking the 5 high bits of the R, G and B channels, and the least significant bit of the A channel.
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07:51:55 <ais523> Canaimero-15d3: are you a human, or a spambot?
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07:52:22 <ais523> it turned up, sent me a bunch of random gibberish in a PM, then parted again
07:56:30 <fizzie> I didn't get any spam. :/
07:56:42 <fizzie> Must be some kind of a "for better folks only" thing.
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11:04:48 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo
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11:46:10 <Sgeo> fuck where's my wallet
12:00:32 <Sgeo> fuckfuckfuckfuckfuckl'
12:03:36 <monqy> have you checked your pocket
12:03:48 <monqy> your sofa/couch/???, your chair
12:04:02 <monqy> your trash can, your car, your friend's car
12:04:19 <monqy> your jacket pocket
12:04:38 <monqy> your dufflebag your fannypack
12:04:58 <monqy> i'm running out of ideas man
12:05:36 <fizzie> I think that's where my father found his wallet once.
12:05:53 <monqy> hm maybe they're in your pants but not in the pocket part. like you tried to put them in your pants but you kinda missed it
12:06:01 <monqy> if you missed it in the other direction they could be on your floor
12:06:05 <monqy> maybe you put it in a drawer
12:06:23 <monqy> hm, microwave/oven/stove might also be worth checking? you could have confused it with your meal
12:06:58 <monqy> medicine cabinet, pets, bookshelves, other shelves
12:07:00 <fizzie> It's like this: you use money to buy food, it's a reasonable mistake to think you can cut out the middleman.
12:08:18 <monqy> http://www.supermegacomics.com/images/361.gif i hear it works out pretty well
12:10:46 <monqy> maybe it's a wallet from the future that only appears when you need money from it
12:10:59 <monqy> do you have any time machines lying around, that could explain it
12:11:10 <monqy> alt. explanation is you dropped it in the time machine and now it's who knows when
12:11:35 <monqy> dinosaur could have eaten it, butterfly effect and that's why (?????weird thing?????)
12:12:00 <monqy> that is pretty dang weird
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12:16:24 <monqy> well he said it's his
12:16:33 <monqy> are we sure it's even a wallet
12:16:39 <monqy> maybe it's a metaphor for something far more sinister
12:17:16 <Sgeo> (well, I guess I'm not actually counting on IRC help. so n/m)
12:17:44 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe it was just a pile of money and credit cards and whatever else sgeo keeps in his wallet
12:18:44 <Sgeo> It also has my keys
12:18:56 <Sgeo> So kind of need it to get back into building
12:19:01 <Sgeo> So can't really leave without it
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12:56:05 <Sgeo> Putting this shampoo in was a mistake. It smells horrific.
12:56:40 <Arc_Koen> is that the head&shoulder we were talking aboutyesterday?
12:59:37 <Arc_Koen> you know I watched that Green Lantern film yesterday. I'm really not a fan of reynolds and the movie was about as good as the third spiderman film, but when he used his ring for the first time the only thing I could think of was "if I get a ring like that, able to build anything out of my imagination, I'll never need to program in any language ever again"
13:10:42 <Arc_Koen> Sgeo: if your itnerviewer is a woman you probably need to go fetch a better shampoo :)
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13:25:00 <Sgeo> wtf I look like I'm going to a fancy dress party, not an interview
13:25:31 <Arc_Koen> Phantom_Hoover: You don't believe in the power of shampoo?
13:25:45 <monqy> what sort of power are we talking here
13:26:14 <boily> today is a sginteorview day. how many excrutiating seconds left before it?
13:26:50 <Arc_Koen> how do you think I managed to go so far in my studies without attending the exams!!
13:27:02 <Sgeo> These men's dress socks look feminine
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13:28:27 <Sgeo> It's what my friend guided me to buy for my interview
13:28:39 <Phantom_Hoover> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-8UYKnFltKEQ/UITnD74CCfI/AAAAAAAAAeQ/OgNHMSU7_rg/s1600/socks-men-dress%5B1%5D.jpg
13:29:11 <Sgeo> There's a pattern on these
13:29:17 <Arc_Koen> god I was imagining Sgeo wearing stockings
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13:31:07 <Arc_Koen> especially flowers and kitties
13:31:30 <boily> (meanwhile, I just upgraded a package in my local haskell installation, without anything breaking. it feels strange.)
13:31:44 <boily> flowers are not feminine. what about hawaiian shirts?
13:31:59 <Phantom_Hoover> well it depends on what part of the flower you're talking about
13:36:33 <Sgeo> Ok, heading out now
13:40:30 <Phantom_Hoover> http://answers.ea.com/t5/Miscellaneous-Issues/Traffic-quot-AI-quot-This-is-why-services-and-traffic-are-broken/m-p/737060#U737060[
13:40:47 <Phantom_Hoover> i'd have thought maxis of all people would have learnt the dangers of oversimulation
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16:05:30 <nooodl> http://bpaste.net/show/OrlKdQFBXpBmf21nXX1n/ i wrote a small python lazy-k interpreter
16:05:40 <nooodl> only supports `ski, though
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16:38:35 <oklopol> since when is having lazy evaluation an important part of lazy k
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16:45:26 <elliott> @tell ais523 any idea about http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=DNA-Sharp&curid=2720&diff=35666&oldid=31940? site owner, maybe?
16:45:57 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Amelia
16:47:54 <Bike> what a well designed page
16:48:28 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Amelia&oldid=35657
16:48:31 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Amelia&oldid=35658
16:48:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Amelia. 1 day old. No history. No philosophy. No uses. No--
16:49:07 <elliott> is this poetry Phantom_Hoover
16:51:41 <elliott> i should probably play deus ex
16:51:45 <elliott> but only for like five minutes
16:51:56 <Bike> turns out to be an esolang based on mediawiki formatting
16:52:07 <elliott> Bike: we already have that
16:52:15 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Wiki_Cyclic_Tag
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16:54:00 <Bike> I don't see a History OR a Philosophy section!
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17:15:51 <HackEgo> BOUCHOU: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
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17:18:44 <Bike> that link is still broken :(
17:18:48 -!- bouchou has left.
17:22:02 <boily> elliott: you scared bouchou.
17:22:24 <elliott> that's ok. this is a scary place
17:26:13 <Phantom_Hoover> thank god, we weren't sure you'd survive the shampoo fumes
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17:31:05 <boily> an Sgeo is a unit of time equivalent to ~3h48min.
17:31:37 <elliott> boily: how... how do you pronounce sgeo
17:33:27 <elliott> well I am wondering where the "an" came from
17:34:32 <fizzie> It's better than "ffgf".
17:36:03 <boily> there weren't any hi here.
17:41:42 <fizzie> You don't want to be saying "hi" in public, it's not seemly.
17:42:44 <Bike> you don't want to be "the monqy" of the channel.
17:43:27 <fizzie> It's a general sort of a rule that, in any given situation, if you don't know who the monqy is, chances are it's you.
17:43:39 <Gregor> Mind you, my reply would have been /ignore bouchou!*@*
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17:49:59 <Gregor> Man, I've ignored bouchou like three times now.
17:50:03 <Gregor> That's just not fair to the poor guy.
17:54:12 <boily> his nick is ambiguous. does it mean hearing, expansion, counterintelligence or protection against the tide?
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18:28:53 <Sgeo> There is a Pope.
18:29:32 <Sgeo> Or, well, a future Pope has been selected.
18:30:26 <Sgeo> So, OI a are things that functions can't really make on their own, but can get values out of?
18:30:45 <Sgeo> Every IO a becomes a way to get an a out of an OI a, I think
18:31:00 <Sgeo> So an OI is almost like a secret key into the real world?
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18:34:08 <boily> darn. they is chosen, but not announced.
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18:41:18 <Sgeo> FreeFull, it's supposed to be. Somehow or other OI doesn't work, but I don't know enough about OI to even understand claims that it doesn't work.
18:45:37 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/919ba5543de04d4d7f9d3e27cfd41d10/tumblr_mjm40mAwrq1qkinreo1_1280.gif
18:46:57 <FreeFull> Sgeo: Probably doesn't work because there is no way to construct an OI value, other than using bottom =P
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18:47:38 <Sgeo> The package I saw had a runInteraction :: (OI a -> b) -> IO b
18:47:56 <Sgeo> So runInteraction must internally create an OI
18:48:13 -!- wareya has joined.
18:48:18 <Sgeo> If the language were OI based, runInteraction might be external to the system
18:48:37 <Sgeo> The same way that with current Haskell, executing IO actions are external to the system
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19:10:49 <Fiora> Bike: so like. um. do you think I should start an asm/programmy sideblog so that people can follow me without being flooded by fandom things? and so I don't scare people off with scary asm things
19:11:13 <Bike> if that means you posting more asm things then yes
19:11:14 <Fiora> I wonder what I could call it. "fiora progterma" is terrible
19:11:26 <Fiora> you want more of them?
19:11:43 <FreeFull> Sgeo: If OI is a comonad, then what stops you from doing extract
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19:19:12 <nooodl> tromp__: i think it isn't actually lazy, as Phantom_Hoover mentioned hours ago
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19:23:38 <tromp__> right; it's call-by-need, but without sharing
19:23:58 <Taneb> `run echo "new pope" | uuu
19:24:10 <Bike> `run echo "francis i" | uuu
19:26:01 <elliott> but h literal syntax is sin
19:26:21 <Fiora> I was thinking of trying to turn the name into asm puns
19:26:33 <Fiora> but FILDa AESENCa doesn't have the same ring
19:26:58 <Taneb> elliott, but sin(90) = is sqrt 2/2!
19:26:59 <tromp__> ah, i see. you don't delay argument evaluation in combinator s
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19:27:49 <Bike> Fiora: just come up with a quick url like fiorasm and then obsess over the displayed title for the rest of your life
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19:28:18 <shachaf> imo make the title be the same as the subdomain
19:29:12 <Taneb> (what's Fiora dooing?)
19:29:18 <Fiora> I was thinking of making an asm sideblog thing
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19:30:09 <Taneb> I'm mildly afraid of asm
19:30:28 <kmc> Fiora: how did you memorize all the SSE instructions
19:30:33 <kmc> did you make flashcards or something
19:30:34 <tromp__> nooodl: i once wrote the prime number sieve in python pure lambda style: http://bpaste.net/show/VZJSFQs3eDZf2SqgMi1C/
19:30:47 <shachaf> You memoriszed all the SSE instructions?
19:30:54 <tromp__> but you quickly run into python's recursion limit
19:31:08 <tromp__> you can run it with python primes.py 2> /dev/null | head -c 100
19:31:13 <kmc> oppa lambda style
19:31:23 <Taneb> tromp__, translate it into Lazy K
19:31:28 <Bike> that joke is a thousand years too late
19:31:29 <elliott> kmc.......................
19:31:51 <kmc> no you see now it's self consciously bad
19:32:02 * boily swats kmc with a jar of kimchi
19:32:20 <Bike> kmc you can't be a hipster about jokes about popular music, it just doesn't work
19:32:31 <kmc> hipster about internet memes
19:33:12 <boily> you should feel honoured. such a nice, handcrafted jar, with the finest organic virtual ballistic cabbage!
19:36:45 <Bike> wasn't gangnam style a song at some point
19:37:42 <Fiora> kmc: I definitely didn't memorize them all
19:37:55 <Fiora> I know most of the basic ones but I mean, the ones I know best are just ones I've used a lot
19:37:59 <Bike> what's pbroadcastvb
19:38:05 <Fiora> I am extremely bad at memorizing things actually
19:38:16 <Fiora> like, I can remember concepts and processes pretty well, but outright memorization is very hard
19:38:25 <Fiora> in 4 years of german in school I learned like a few hundred vocab words
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19:38:44 <Fiora> so like, when I think "pmaddubsw", I don't think some raw manual definition of what it does, I think of all the stuff I use it for and the tricks I know with it
19:39:04 <Fiora> and performance characteristics and stuff
19:39:26 <Fiora> ummm I think vpbroadcast only has "b", "w", "d", and "q"
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19:40:03 <kmc> makes sense
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19:41:03 <Fiora> oh, b, w, d, q, and "i128"
19:41:29 <kmc> double quad super octo-word
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19:41:39 <Fiora> kmc: one result of "not memorizing" like that is that I often don't remember 'exactly' what something does, and I do have to look things up a lot
19:42:10 <Fiora> like. don't ask me which direction palignr works in. I know it's supposed to be "right" (the "r"), but what's "right"? with all the mess of endianness, I have no idea <.<
19:42:18 <Fiora> I kinda just try both and see which works
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19:43:10 * Bike notes down: do not ask fiora what "palignr" is or does
19:43:37 <Fiora> palignr is just a way to take AAAAAAAA,BBBBBBBB and get AAAAAABB (for some number of Bs you want to shove into the As)
19:43:38 <Taneb> Bike, it aligns p's to the right
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19:43:50 <Bike> fiora, you're not helping your case here
19:44:20 <Taneb> Fiora, Bike's sayin you're awesome
19:44:42 <Bike> yes, i order you to be less competent
19:49:09 <Fiora> palignr is like, fun for things like FIR filters
19:52:06 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
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19:59:12 <olsner> do fir filters care about fun?
20:03:43 -!- impomatic has joined.
20:05:16 <boily> olsner: yes, but it's a birch.
20:06:19 <Fiora> i am evergreen with envy over those puns
20:06:45 <Taneb> I'm pining for more
20:09:11 -!- nooga has joined.
20:10:54 <boily> glade to see other deranged minds punning with me, even if it's not oak-ay for this channel.
20:13:23 <olsner> if I had any non-bad puns I'd concedar joining you
20:13:24 <Taneb> I tried to right a pun, but I made an ash of it
20:14:39 * Gregor sets fire to the channel.
20:16:01 <Taneb> Why do ducks have flat feet?
20:16:11 <Taneb> To stamp out forest fires
20:16:15 <Taneb> Why do elephants have flat feet?
20:16:22 <Taneb> To stamp out burning ducks
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20:25:46 <Fiora> so apparently in order to see my own posts on my dash
20:25:49 <Fiora> I have to follow myself
20:25:54 <elliott> oh i preferred it when it was just weird
20:26:10 <Taneb> Fiora, yeah, I don't see PH's posts on Tumblr
20:27:11 <Bike> Fiora: you should probably anounce it on your main one
20:27:48 <Phantom_Hoover> "Cardinal Bergoglio has encouraged his clergy and laity to oppose both abortion and euthanasia.[11] He supports the use of contraception to prevent the spread of disease, meaning he is not a completely hidebound prude.[12]
20:28:32 <monqy> looks like someone has an opinion
20:28:34 <boily> brace yourselves, edit wars are coming.
20:28:42 <Bike> it's already locked
20:29:02 <olsner> does the new one also have a supervillain lookalike?
20:29:25 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Card._Jorge_Bergoglio_SJ,_2008.jpg iunno, he looks boring mostly
20:29:47 <elliott> haha is it protected with that on the page
20:30:04 <Bike> yes, yes it is.
20:30:10 <Bike> It has a cite though!
20:30:26 <elliott> no it's not i just checked
20:30:35 <Bike> it was when i looked at it four seconds ago :(
20:30:38 <Bike> now i'm on to the talk page
20:30:40 <Bike> «Include information pertaining to the Popes stance regarding SCIENTOLOGy's religious status (in Argentina).99.8.125.39 (talk) 20:22, 13 March 2013 (UTC)»
20:30:56 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: sorry, my brain is partially out of order today. I'm usually more impervious to memetification.
20:31:16 <Bike> «I have never posted on Wikipedia before and have no real plans to post later.. but i think the sentence "He is another homophobic bastard indeed." should probably be removed»
20:31:48 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how there have been a good few hundred edits to that page today
20:33:51 <elliott> https://twitter.com/Pontifex/status/311922995633455104 i'm scared
20:34:16 <elliott> the idea of the vatican fucking tweeting in latin 100% seriously is the funniest thing
20:34:38 <Bike> dude the trends
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20:34:53 <Bike> "#HabemusPapam" "#PrimerasPalabrasDelPapa" "#LosArgentinosDominamosElMundo" "#ReplaceMovieTitlesWithPope"
20:35:16 <boily> tuit. he he he. I shouldn't be laughing, but I mean, tuit.
20:36:23 <Bike> unfortunately Bergoglio's personal twitter is just in Spanish
20:36:46 <Bike> he has retweeted somebody named "mitt romney" wearing a Scream mask, though
20:38:24 <monqy> sounds like someone hip with the culture of todayt
20:39:09 <Bike> https://twitter.com/cassin2851/status/232854175040552960
20:39:23 <Bike> bergoglio is the guy on the right in vestments
20:40:03 <monqy> that's not mitt romney, that's mitt rommey
20:40:20 <elliott> If I'm the new pope, children will love me more than the Santa Claus # Vatican
20:40:24 <Bike> republicano conservador adherente al tea party
20:41:15 <nooodl> "#LosArgentinosDominamosElMundo" :|
20:41:18 <monqy> this bergoglio guy sure is rewteet ing a lot of hip stuff, like this one guy he retweeted has as his avatar that picture of a cat with a thing on his head
20:41:34 <Bike> elliott: that would explain why a guy who's been accused of war crimes retweeted HIJOS
20:41:35 <monqy> im sure there are lots of fake accounts
20:41:37 <Bike> nooodl: inorite.
20:41:54 <monqy> ¿Y por qué #NoALosHomosexuales directamente? #NoALaAdopciónEntreHomosexuales
20:42:12 <monqy> Sólo la iglesia debe protejer a esos niños, abrazarlos, mimarlos, darles calor, darles amor, darles... eh eh #NoALaAdopciónEntreHomosexuales
20:42:21 <Bike> no, it's JMBergoglio
20:42:32 <monqy> pontifex deleted all their tweets and replaced them with latin
20:42:33 <elliott> i see this guy also retweeted a tweet with "fuck you" in it
20:42:42 <Bike> 'That Twitter Account for the New Pope Is Fake, Fake, Fake
20:42:45 <elliott> IM GETTING THE FEELING THIS ISNT ACTUALLY THE POPE GYUYAS
20:43:00 <nooodl> isn't available in latin...
20:43:14 <Bike> i am so disappointed
20:43:43 <Taneb> Looks like it ought to be Finnish
20:43:43 <nooodl> http://yle.fi/radio1/tiede/nuntii_latini/ is
20:43:49 <monqy> Q:which pope is the real pope???
20:43:59 <Bike> the real pope is peter two of spain
20:44:02 <elliott> turns out theres multiple popes
20:44:07 <elliott> each one thinks they've been elected
20:44:12 <elliott> each one thinks they're francis
20:44:13 <nooodl> congrats on your papacy, everyone
20:44:20 <Bike> "Proelium Stalingradense commemorabatur"
20:44:26 <Bike> is this "Stalingrad" in latin
20:44:48 <nooodl> "Stalingradens" is probably "from Stalingrad"
20:45:02 <Bike> Obama alterum quadriennium coepit
20:45:19 <Taneb> The battle of Stalingrad is commemorated?
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20:45:34 <Bike> probably, i mean two million people died
20:45:34 <boily> let's partake of a hot dog bun!
20:45:46 <Bike> it kind of sucked, speaking overall
20:45:59 <Taneb> Obama gains another term?
20:46:16 <nooodl> coepisse is "to begin"
20:46:31 <Taneb> I need to learn this
20:46:37 <elliott> Bike: would you say it was kind of a bummer. totally lame
20:46:47 <Taneb> Seriously, I've ended up doing A-level latin even though I suck at it
20:46:52 <nooodl> you're thinking, uh, capit?
20:47:06 <nooodl> no that's present, ugh
20:47:09 <Taneb> I think I was just thinking what makes sense
20:47:14 <Bike> elliott: yes i think most survivors would agree that it was, quote, "totally lame" and/or "sucktastic".
20:47:18 <elliott> Censorship? Micaela Lisola? Mary Elizabeth Censorship Larrauri not let you take the microphone to whom she wants!
20:47:24 <Taneb> Because I knew I didn't know coepit
20:48:31 <Bike> the latin tweet on @Pontifex disappeared...
20:49:01 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pope_Francis#It.27s_Francis_I_.E2.80.93_A_New_Pope anyway the important thing is whether he's I or not.
20:49:46 <elliott> Bike: pretty sure this is an elaborate setup to an ARG
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20:49:59 <Bike> "He was not born in India - FIX THAT"
20:50:02 <Fiora> wouldn't it be Francis IV - A New Pope?
20:50:04 <elliott> fake twitter accounts, mysterious uppercase latin tweet that's then deleted
20:50:08 <Bike> no shut up fiora
20:50:16 <elliott> fiora.......................
20:50:33 <Bike> elliott: jesus returns, catholicism turns out to be an elaborate role-playing game
20:50:41 <elliott> guys can we stop for a second and recognise that a papal ARG would be the best thing in the universe
20:50:49 <elliott> i had no idea how much i wanted this in my life until now
20:50:58 <Bike> alternate-reality game
20:50:59 <elliott> @google alternate reality game
20:51:01 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_reality_game
20:51:01 <lambdabot> Title: Alternate reality game - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
20:51:11 <nooodl> elliott: that sounds very good
20:51:27 <nooodl> maybe it'd be a lot like a dan brown book though??
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20:51:48 <elliott> ok but face it being in a dan brown book would actually be awesome (unless you died)
20:51:52 <elliott> how can anything that stupid not be awesome
20:51:53 <monqy> elliott: are you still making a roguelike you could make a papal roguelike. you could you could.
20:52:01 <elliott> monqy: wow papal roguelike.......
20:52:04 <Bike> trivia: "angels and demons" is like the only novel i've ever stopped reading out of boredom
20:52:07 <elliott> EVERYTHING is better with more catholicism
20:52:19 <Bike> papal roguelike would work pretty well, i mean have you seen those catacombs?
20:52:25 <Bike> you haven't, because they're off-limits.
20:52:29 <elliott> i'm not gonna lie i loved the da vinci code film
20:52:32 <Bike> but not to the pope
20:52:41 <Taneb> Bike, Assassin's Creed II and Brotherhood?
20:52:49 <Bike> what is that, thath sounds dumb
20:52:50 <nooodl> i think i saw that film
20:53:01 <monqy> ive never seen any of these things
20:53:02 <Bike> i bet you hardly ever play as the pope
20:53:25 <nooodl> elliott: make "vagrant 3: papal vagrant"
20:53:33 <elliott> in the arg you'd have to literally travel to vatican city
20:54:25 <Bike> "Are you here on a pilgrimage?" "no, i'm just roleplaying"
20:54:27 <nooodl> and everyone there's in on the "game" and they know you're on a mission and they're like "welcome, sir"
20:55:15 <Bike> note: preceding statement was by a bad roleplayer
20:55:35 <elliott> it would just be very illegal tresspassing
20:55:39 <elliott> the budget doesn't cover that
20:55:48 <elliott> is it illegal to enter vatican city. can you enter vatican city i honestly don't know.
20:55:51 <elliott> what's a vatican, what's a pope
20:55:55 <nooodl> this just got extra intense
20:56:01 <Bike> well you need a passport
20:56:15 <nooodl> you need an illuminati passport
20:56:17 <Bike> but they have fucktons of tourists and pilgrims and probably roleplayers?
20:56:45 <Taneb> Bike, all trespassers
20:57:32 <elliott> Opposed - Keep as "Pope Francis". According to the Pope's official Twitter "HABEMUS PAPAM FRANCISCUM" no use of ordinal [8]. --Zimbabweed (talk) 19:40, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
20:57:34 <boily> I trespassed there twice. once for the great circle thing, after that for the museums.
20:57:42 <elliott> oh wow i just noticed their username
20:58:02 <elliott> i'm so glad we're all bonding over the new pope
20:58:07 <Bike> Being a musician as well, Francis also played the violin frequently for the natives, which helped them relate better to him. He is often depicted playing this instrument.
20:58:09 <elliott> is there even a single catholic here
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20:58:25 <monqy> my family is catholic does that count
20:58:42 <pikhq> It's "HABEMUS PAPAM FRANCISCUM" instead of "HABEMVS PAPAM FRANCISCVM"?
20:58:49 <elliott> whats it like to have a religious family thats such a weird idea to me
20:58:52 <Bike> i love all these people saying popes ALWAYS have an ordinal number
20:59:00 <elliott> do you have to go to church
20:59:01 <Bike> going off of three examples, one of which was over a thousand years ago
20:59:02 <pikhq> elliott: It's uncomfortable.
20:59:16 <monqy> nah i was able get my parents to stop making me go years ago
20:59:43 <elliott> i've been in a church like
20:59:50 <shachaf> monqy: do they make you go in the present instead now
21:00:05 <shachaf> monqy: btw if your parents are married that makes them not single catholics
21:00:08 <elliott> and i went to a church of england school
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21:00:26 <Bike> You call it the church of england? not anglicanism or something
21:00:41 <elliott> Bike: well they're "C of E schools" (you say see of ee)
21:00:49 <shachaf> monqy: are you disapproving
21:01:10 <elliott> Bike: i think anglicanism is like more broad??
21:01:11 <monqy> church of england but only for historical reasons
21:01:30 <Bike> church of england vs church of wales, fight
21:01:39 <nooodl> how christian i am: just baptized, really
21:02:17 <monqy> did your family bap you and stop caring
21:02:35 <elliott> i haven't been baptised unless i was and nobody ever told me and i forgot about it
21:02:44 <elliott> or maybe someone told me and i forgot about it? but i'm pretty sure i wasn't!!
21:02:44 <Bike> ohhhhh the last non-european pope was actually syrian
21:03:21 <elliott> monqy: well there was still like, a daily prayer thing in the school
21:03:30 <elliott> but that was like literally it
21:03:36 <Bike> i'm pretty sure going to a religious school makes you at least half a bishop.
21:04:01 <elliott> like aren't religious schools in america really religious or something
21:04:06 <shachaf> I guess they're full bishops and also rooks on top of that.
21:04:08 <pikhq> elliott: Generally, yes.
21:04:37 <pikhq> They are schools that straight-up indoctrinate in religion, rather than being schools that happen to be associated with a religiou organization.
21:04:38 <Bike> All i know about american catholic schools i learned from You Damn Kid so i'm going to go with yes
21:04:47 <pikhq> Non-Catholic religious schools more so.
21:04:53 <olsner> wasn't there some state that required a pledge to God and Country before allowing you to graduate from high school?
21:05:13 <Bike> it's standard to pledge to god and country every day anyway
21:05:19 <pikhq> olsner: Probably multiple, but such a thing is blatantly unconstitutional.
21:05:57 <monqy> i remember my family being upset that people didnt have to pledge to God in the pledge of allegiance in schools, or something like that. i dont understand my family.
21:06:24 * Bike had been assuming that monqy was some kind of non-american foreigner. what is this
21:06:50 <pikhq> My father thinks that gay people are pedophiles, and you become gay by being raped as a child.
21:07:00 <olsner> Bike: americans are all foreigners, hth
21:07:06 <Bike> my life is a lie.
21:07:23 <Taneb> Bike, that is, except for the Swedish ones
21:07:25 <monqy> i dont talk to my parents about things like that because i know it would be unproductive and upsetting
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21:19:10 <AnotherTest> the church is such an absolutist institute - I did not vote for a cardinal yet he does represent my vote
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21:29:17 <Bike> they get locked in and put on rations, their pain makes them good representatives
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21:30:04 <elliott> it would work better if they didn't get fed
21:31:15 <Bike> they did that the first time, a guy died.
21:31:29 <Bike> worked pretty well though yes
21:31:33 <elliott> please tell me that's true
21:31:48 <Bike> the papal conclave system got started because they'd gone three years without picking one
21:31:57 <Bike> so the magistrates were all "uuuugh fuck you guys" and locked them in
21:32:45 <Bike> and put them on bread and water (which is less than they do now, FUCKIN SOFTIES)
21:34:06 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_of_Segusio and this guy was taken out to die
21:40:44 <elliott> i didn't mean fed with bread and water
21:40:50 <elliott> i could live for months on bread and water
21:41:17 <Bike> Have you considered becoming a medieval French monarch? I think you've got what it takes.
21:41:19 <elliott> why does this not contain info about his death i want my money back
21:41:30 <elliott> Bike: um that would require me to become french
21:41:36 <elliott> which would destroy my soul and worse, make me french
21:41:54 <Bike> I mean you know the present queen of England is like, Dutch or something.
21:45:07 <elliott> that's way better than being french.
21:46:03 <Bike> yes the point is that all you have to do is fabricate some evidence that twelve thousand years ago your ancestor was the (spanish) queen of the gauls and you're golden
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21:49:27 <elliott> ok but also I'll have to rule over french people
21:50:03 <Bike> there presently isn't a french monarch so they probably wouldn't take you seriously
22:10:12 <elliott> Bike: the popes twitter got suspended rip
22:11:06 <Bike> where did you go wrong, franky
22:12:31 <Bike> probably tried to troll 4chan
22:13:08 <monqy> its pretty cute how each of the pontifex accounts follow each other
22:13:25 <elliott> do the other language ones have translations of the latin
22:13:30 <elliott> if so why doesnt the english account have a translation of the latin????
22:13:41 <elliott> "fuck you we're doing latin" ------ church
22:14:05 <Bike> mass sounds a lot better to me in latin, no lie
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22:21:00 <Vorpal> I'm somewhat confused why people seem to care so much about this. (Note by this I'm not saying it is completely unimportant, just that I'm wondering why a lot of non-catholics seems to care so /much/ about it...)
22:21:27 <monqy> just some silly ol pop culture to bond over
22:21:43 <monqy> like celebrities but in the real world
22:22:14 <Vorpal> well, I never got the point of celebrities either, so I guess that explains it
22:22:48 <monqy> i've only gotten celebrities by analogy with actually fascinating things like pope
22:23:16 <Fiora> Vorpal: he's a major political figure, kinda like that obama dude, I think
22:23:39 <Vorpal> Fiora, technically he commands the smallest country in the world, both by area and population.
22:23:59 <Fiora> catholicism has more 'citizens' than china ^^;
22:24:00 <monqy> a relatively minor major political figure
22:24:10 <Vorpal> Fiora, in that sense, true
22:25:07 <Bike> http://www.theonion.com/articles/focus-who-is,31657/ hth.
22:25:14 <Vorpal> Fiora, but he has no military to speak of
22:25:15 <elliott> is the weather nice in catholicism
22:25:46 <Bike> compared to the US hardly anybody has a military to speak of anyway, so that's no problem
22:26:10 <Vorpal> Well, China kind of does iirc
22:26:31 <Bike> they still spend like, half as much
22:27:22 <elliott> doesn't the us spend more than the rest of the world combined
22:27:46 <Bike> PLUS the pope's military wears cool hats
22:27:48 <Bike> i think they're good
22:28:09 <elliott> looks like china spends $143.0Bn
22:28:28 <Vorpal> Anyway, the pope commands a tiny country, and does not have much real political power on stuff that matters for non-catholics, possibly apart from the question of abortion in certain countries.
22:28:36 <elliott> so us spends 5x as much as china
22:28:53 <elliott> Vorpal: you realise that stuff catholics do affect non-catholics too right
22:29:03 <Fiora> the catholic church kind of has quite a lot of power in parts of the world other than america...
22:29:08 <Fiora> especially africa and south america
22:29:09 <elliott> and also more generally there are an awful lot of catholics so from a world politics pov what happens to them is relevant
22:29:24 <Fiora> and their policies kind of affect a billion people
22:30:12 <Vorpal> elliott, sure, but I'm questioning if the pope has much effect on (or even could have the potential to have) the question of, for example, EU agricultural politics.
22:30:16 <olsner> afaik I've met exactly one catholic
22:30:34 <elliott> well how is EU agricultural politics any more or less relevant to people in #esoteric than catholicism
22:30:42 <elliott> i guess it's more since a bunch of people are european here but still
22:30:46 <Fiora> like the catholic church's policy on condoms literally affects the future of an entire continent almost
22:31:20 <Vorpal> elliott, that was just an example. My point is that outside a few specific areas, what he says will have very little effect on non-catholics as far as I can tell
22:31:55 <elliott> a few specific huge areas???
22:31:58 <Sgeo> Except where governments with a lot of Catholic people may listen to the Pope and be swayed against things such as legalizing gay marriage
22:32:23 <Vorpal> elliott, really? I can only think of abortion and safe sex. What am I missing?
22:32:37 <Bike> do you know how many people AIDS kills dude
22:33:19 <Vorpal> I'm not denying they are important questions. But they are just two questions out of many.
22:33:24 <monqy> something about people being treated badly for something about homosexuality
22:33:35 <Vorpal> monqy, ah yes, good point, forgot that.
22:33:37 <monqy> human rights generally "a thing"
22:33:58 <Bike> well, i'm sure that that the cardinal referred to an argentinian civil marriage law as being the work of Satan won't affect anything
22:34:12 <Vorpal> monqy, Fairly significant area indeed, good point
22:34:23 <monqy> wasn't that elliott's point
22:34:33 <Vorpal> Bike, it won't affect the majority of the world no
22:34:36 <monqy> or uhh maybe someone before that
22:34:41 <Bike> you're charismatic enough that you can take others' points, monqy.
22:34:50 <Bike> take them and mold them into beautiful birds.
22:36:14 <Vorpal> Bike, perhaps it is because I live in an extremely secular country (Sweden) that this seems so foreign to me. But if some priests here proclaimed such a thing, sure it would cause a bit of discussion, but eh, in the end, who would care much.
22:37:18 <Vorpal> I consider the church over here a minority. A fairly vocal minority at times yes, but still a minority.
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22:44:22 <elliott> Vorpal: all i can parse out of your statement is "i do not notice when religion affects politics and daily life in my home country"
22:45:26 <elliott> 22:25:07 <Bike> http://www.theonion.com/articles/focus-who-is,31657/ hth.
22:45:31 <elliott> i didnt get around to looking at this tab until now but its good
22:45:33 <elliott> too bad bike left already!!!
22:49:21 <Phantom_Hoover> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Life_expectancy_in_some_Southern_African_countries_1958_to_2003.png
22:49:42 <FreeFull> Wow, why did it drop down like that
22:53:37 <nooodl> http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idi_Amin wow stay classy dutch wikipedia
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22:56:17 <Bike> did i miss anything remotely interesting
22:56:23 <elliott> 22:45:25 <elliott> 22:25:07 <Bike> http://www.theonion.com/articles/focus-who-is,31657/ hth.
22:56:26 <elliott> 22:45:31 <elliott> i didnt get around to looking at this tab until now but its good
22:56:29 <elliott> 22:45:33 <elliott> too bad bike left already!!!
22:56:35 <Bike> other than let's see *looks at logs* death
22:58:23 <Bike> always good to learn about death and shitty wikipediaa
22:59:18 <Bike> well, i can't read this language, but i assume the text goes downhill from using a caricature as his picture
22:59:46 <elliott> what i did was i pressed the translate button on my browser
22:59:48 <elliott> because i live in the future
23:00:22 <kmc> hehe wikipedipodes
23:01:43 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_My_Defens_God_Me_Defend
23:03:20 <elliott> http://www.theonion.com/articles/how-the-papal-conclave-selects-the-pope,31614/
23:04:05 <monqy> In my defence God me defend And bring my sawl to ane good end ane vertuous lyf procureth ane happie death...
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23:04:41 <elliott> scots is basically just english written by someone who hasn't quite gotten the hang of things but thinks themselves quite good anyway
23:04:45 <elliott> which also describes scots themselves
23:04:52 <monqy> In my defense God me defend and bring my saulle to ane guid end O Lord.
23:06:09 <Bike> the philosophy trick works when you don't know what the chinese for 'Philosophy' is?
23:06:44 <Phantom_Hoover> and also the page image is called 'the death of socrates'
23:08:52 <Bike> good deduction then
23:09:16 <Phantom_Hoover> however it doesn't have the short cycle that makes philosophy an obvious terminal point
23:10:09 <Phantom_Hoover> In fact I don't think it's terminal at all; I think human is.
23:10:30 <Bike> now can you find an article that's terminanl for all wikipediae
23:10:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Which then leads to a very roundabout loop through the biology articles.
23:15:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: have you realised that scots are ridiculous
23:15:45 <elliott> i mean you think you're a people but you're actually just fake english
23:16:14 <Bike> i have this weird urge to strangle you right now, i wonder if one of my ancestors was from scotsworld
23:16:41 <elliott> Bike: it is probably because i mentioned scots, they inspire murderous rage in us all
23:17:05 <Bike> i've never even seen braveheart
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23:22:21 <Bike> https://twitter.com/Non_Cunningham more papal news
23:22:45 <elliott> man i wish popes stopped being pope more often
23:22:56 <elliott> i could make a "sports night" out of this
23:23:07 <elliott> get everyone around to watch the vatican news intensely
23:23:19 <Bike> what do you think they do in st peter's square
23:23:25 <Bike> i bet they have a fucking jumbotron set up
23:23:36 <elliott> can we get sports commentators in the place where they elect the dudes
23:24:15 <Bike> it's super secret, they've thrown out reporters posing as maids and shit all the time
23:24:23 <Bike> they go over it with a bug detector
23:25:05 <nooodl> scots reminds me of old zzo
23:25:08 <Bike> i think attempting to get information out gets you automatically excommunicated, even if you're a cardinal
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23:25:16 <elliott> reporters posing as maids....................
23:25:19 <elliott> are you just making this shit up
23:25:46 <Bike> i don't think you understand why i follow this stuff, elliott
23:25:51 <Bike> it is because it is balls to the wall crazy
23:25:55 <Bike> there are dozens of balls on that wall
23:26:04 <nooodl> which wall are a we talking
23:26:38 <Jafet> They probably got found out when the see got around to doing whatever they do with the maids.
23:26:56 <elliott> Bike: is that why you follow #esoteric
23:27:02 <Bike> yes, i am referring to the servian walls
23:27:07 <Bike> elliott: finally someone gets it
23:27:23 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: ?? is this english
23:27:35 <Bike> destroyer of the nonce-sphere
23:27:45 <elliott> if you're not sure whether something is english or not it's probably scots
23:28:07 <Bike> digitox, the removable hard drive planet
23:28:23 <elliott> "Shut up you precious bellend"
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23:28:51 <Bike> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_conclave#Expelling_the_outsiders but no, i'm quite serious
23:29:39 <Bike> they are very serious about their popes
23:29:40 <elliott> Cardinals who arrive after the conclave has begun are admitted nevertheless. An ill cardinal may leave the conclave and later be readmitted; a cardinal who leaves for any reason other than illness may not return to the conclave.[74]
23:29:50 <elliott> you're telling me they're allowed to leave for reasons other than illness????
23:29:56 <elliott> also shouldn't they just like have a hospital ward in the building
23:30:00 <elliott> they're not dedicated enough
23:30:34 <elliott> Only three cardinals electors are permitted to communicate with the outside world under grave circumstances, prior to approval of the College, to fulfil their duties: the Major Penitentiary, the Cardinal Vicar for the Diocese of Rome, and the Vicar General for the Vatican City State.[4]
23:30:36 <Bike> a hospital ward in the sistine chapel?
23:30:43 <elliott> i wonder what could possibly be grave enough to report to the outside world but not like
23:30:45 <Phantom_Hoover> <Bike> i think attempting to get information out gets you automatically excommunicated, even if you're a cardinal
23:31:12 <Bike> vatican architects must be quite creative
23:31:23 <Bike> i assume that they've made a deal with the mole people or something, there can't be room to build otherwise
23:31:41 <elliott> Before the conclave that elected Pope Benedict XVI, the Sistine Chapel was "swept" using the latest electronic devices to detect any hidden "bugs" or surveillance devices (there were no reports that any were found, but in previous conclaves press reporters who had disguised themselves as conclave servants were discovered). Universi Dominici Gregis specifically prohibits media such as newspapers, the radio, and television.[75] Wi-Fi access is blocked
23:31:53 <Bike> cut off after "Wi-Fi access is blocked"
23:31:54 <elliott> i just completely love the catholic church's blend of existing in 2013
23:31:58 <elliott> and totally not even remotely existing in 2013 in the slightest
23:32:02 <elliott> Wi-Fi access is blocked in Vatican City and wireless signal jammers are deployed at the Sistine Chapel to prevent any form of electronic communications to or from the Cardinal electors.[76]
23:32:17 <elliott> like can you even imagine a cardinal using wifi
23:32:34 <Bike> did you know that one of the popes in the nineteenth century banned jews from going out after dark
23:32:55 <Phantom_Hoover> more news from xantiar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5xnznFzLek http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2o4W4-ULjM
23:34:38 <Bike> the lower head. i can't handle this
23:34:53 <nooodl> wow i was reading the exact same paragraph elliott
23:35:36 <elliott> what a coinky-dink!!!!!!!!!
23:37:32 <elliott> Bike: this twitter is puzzling and i think i like it
23:38:09 <Bike> apparently it's a parody of some theologian but i don't think that's important
23:38:44 <Bike> i like how the prince is sub-lord utalax both times, phantom_hoover, it's nice to see some consistency in the news for once
23:38:48 <elliott> Bike: i was thinking it might be a really cool theologician who only posts on twitter sarcastically
23:39:05 <elliott> but then i was like: probably not
23:39:10 <elliott> then i briefly entertained the idea that they might be serious
23:39:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, i'm not sure if supercommander dek lazer is the same in both though
23:39:46 <elliott> "Am I the JEFF GOLDBLUM of THEOLOGY??!???"
23:40:18 <elliott> "Fucking nihilist" "Fucking creationist" "Fucking anonymous atheist" "Fucking philosophers" "Really I just want to be the Alain de Bottom of American pseudo-intellectual evangelicalism. Is that too much to ask?"
23:41:04 <elliott> "Reminder: without the incarnation you CANNOT differentiate a Thai massage from MURDER-SEX."
23:41:39 <Bike> that reminds me, did you know that a person named Nimrod Meggido actually exists
23:41:40 <elliott> "In this article I argue that secularist care more about POLAR BEARS than UNBORN BABIES (I actually make this point)"
23:41:46 <Bike> Megiddo, sorry
23:41:55 <Bike> he's into game theory
23:42:50 <elliott> "grace makes you MORE of a GIRAFFE (i actually said this)"
23:43:45 -!- carado_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:44:11 <Bike> "Finding out a theological mentor is gay is like finding out your lovers vagina is made of tesco value slices of ham"
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23:50:05 <kmc> better than horse meat
23:50:13 <kmc> am i right folks?
23:50:23 <kmc> because of all the horse meat that tesco recently sold
23:50:26 <Bike> Yes, I would rather eat human reproductive organs than horses.
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23:50:46 <kmc> is there something you know about 'value slices of ham' that i don't
23:51:20 <Bike> Are you a virgin? Then yes.
23:51:53 <Bike> Are you a third degree SexMaster yet?
23:52:33 <kmc> You too can become a Third Degree SexMaster™ for only $29.95
23:53:13 <kmc> sexentology
23:58:00 <Bike> hm, the same site has articles titled "WATCH: Halle Berry’s Cleavage Stole The Show Last Night On Leno" and "Pope Francis I Is No Fan Of Homosexuality, Abortion, Contraception, And Same-Sex Adoption"
23:58:20 <kmc> is it buzzfeed
23:58:40 <Bike> Mediaite, so probably yes? I don't know.
23:59:09 <Bike> oh nice, he called gay marriage "a real and dire anthropological throwback"
23:59:32 <Bike> thanks, american anthropological association, for giving me something to cite for this shit
00:00:12 <Bike> http://www.aaanet.org/issues/policy-advocacy/Statement-on-Marriage-and-the-family.cfm `-`
00:00:30 <Sgeo> Google Reader is shutting down :(
00:01:26 <Bike> like come on, don't say "anthropology" if you don't know shit about it, how hard is that
00:01:29 <Bike> what's Google Reader?
00:01:38 <Sgeo> Google's RSS reader service
00:02:14 <Bike> Can't you use uh... thunderbird or something
00:02:31 <kmc> yes Bike, there exist multiple RSS readers
00:02:39 <kmc> that doesn't mean that the death of one RSS reader is insignificant
00:02:48 <Sgeo> The problem with any non-cloud RSS reader for me is that computers don't seem to last long in my hands.
00:02:52 <kmc> "GMail is shutting down" "WELL JUST RUN YOUR DOWN DNS AND MX, LOSER"
00:02:59 <Bike> ok, ok, i get it
00:03:00 <elliott> Bike: are anthropologists nice people
00:03:08 <pikhq> Dammit, now I need a new RSS reader.
00:03:18 <kmc> and yeah, the hosted service is super useful
00:03:31 <kmc> this might be an impetus for me to make my own strange RSS reader with various features i've wanted
00:03:34 <Bike> elliott: now that they've mostly gotten over the vast galloping racism, yeah they're pretty cool. i had a professor who worked in the caribbean making oil shirtless with the people he was studying
00:03:44 <kmc> like the HN spamfiltered tricklefeed
00:04:02 <Sgeo> At least I'll be abandoning a misfeature of Google Reader: The whole "You haven't read it after 30 days? Guess what, you have!" thing
00:04:21 <elliott> Bike: i never knew racism could gallop
00:04:51 <elliott> kmc: you should steal my rss strategy
00:05:09 <kmc> i'll just have Sgeo ping me on IRC whenevr any of my webcomics update
00:05:24 <Bike> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jean_Louis_Th%C3%A9odore_G%C3%A9ricault_001.jpg artists' depiction of galloping racists
00:05:36 <elliott> HEY NOW you said galloping racism not galloping racists
00:06:02 <Bike> "racism" is the plural of "racist", which is the kind of hovervehicle depicted in this image
00:06:55 <Bike> anyway i'll ask what my friend who actually uses rss uses as a reader, in order to atone for my sins
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00:35:21 <Sgeo> I should continue reading about OI
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00:36:56 <Sgeo> elliott keeps saying it doesn't work, but I'd love to know what 'it' is
00:37:10 <tswett> Well, what would an "OI a" be?
00:37:11 <Bike> @hoogle comonad
00:37:30 <tswett> Wouldn't it be an "a" along with the entire universe?
00:37:35 <tswett> You can't really pass the universe around.
00:39:16 * Sgeo hands tswett a frog
00:39:57 <tswett> http://comonad.com/reader/2011/free-monads-for-less-3/ "[The second problem with RealWorld is], you don't really get to pass the real world around! We have multiple cores working these days."
00:39:58 <Bike> give me a comonad and a place to stand, and i will lift the RealWorld
00:40:15 <tswett> I like the implication that before multi-core processors came about, it was possible to pass the real world around.
00:40:32 <Bike> damn multicores ruining everything.
00:41:15 <Sgeo> Going to watch a video on Idris then continue reading the OI paper
00:41:36 <Sgeo> Oh the video is an hour long
00:42:33 <Fiora> Bike: no followers on my sideblog, even :<
00:42:55 <Bike> Fiora: it would help if i knew it existed
00:43:02 <Fiora> oh. I thought I mentioned it to you
00:43:04 <Bike> like just put a thing on your blog saying "hey nerds get the fuck over here"
00:43:05 <c00kiemon5ter> Fiora, btw, you may like this http://www.fpgarelated.com/showarticle/44.php
00:43:07 <Fiora> fiorasm.tumblr.com
00:43:10 <Bike> your main blog, i mean
00:44:01 <Bike> because otherwise nobody will know it exists
00:44:08 <Bike> and you will be asming in the æther
00:48:35 <Sgeo> This paper seems a bit... off
00:48:50 <Arc_Koen> Sgeo: so how was the interview?
00:49:01 <Sgeo> Arc_Koen, it went well, I ... think, not sure though
00:49:52 <Arc_Koen> did she say anything about your shampoo?
00:49:53 <Sgeo> Ok, this paper keeps calling bind impure
00:49:57 <Sgeo> Arc_Koen, he, and no.
00:50:17 <Bike> er, like >>= bind?
00:51:20 <Sgeo> Maybe I'm not quite grasping its terminology
00:52:37 <Sgeo> "Typically, IO operations of a Haskell program are performed in the main module, which has the type () -> IO()."
00:52:43 <Fiora> c00kiemon5ter: that whole thing seems kind of weird... I guess it's trying to find a better way to code 'call' instructions, but it never talks about any other instructions on the machine...?
00:52:58 <Bike> Sgeo: i thought main was IO ()?
00:53:15 <Bike> also it's not a module?
00:53:21 <Bike> is it a module
00:53:32 <Sgeo> Well, main is typically found in a module called Main, but...
00:53:46 <Sgeo> Don't know if that's always the case
00:53:46 <Fiora> the idea is kinda cool? but I think calls are only a couple percent of code size
00:53:52 <Fiora> I'd guess jumps are a lot more
00:53:54 <Phantom_Hoover> are we talking about modules as in ringy vector spaces
00:54:02 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, we are talking Haskell
00:54:11 <Sgeo> And this paper is making me go "er..." a lot
00:54:36 <Bike> Fiora: you know it's a good paper when it starts out by talking about totally unrelated bullshit about technology adoption
00:54:57 <Phantom_Hoover> (i was really expecting something more interesting when i looked up what modules were)
00:55:19 <Bike> nothing is interesting
00:55:22 <Bike> everything is interesting
00:56:34 <Fiora> I guess it's just like, the idea for a 'table' of calls is kind of cool, but it feels like it wouldn't actually help that much, and it's only like, a tiny part of what defines a processor
00:57:13 <Bike> well he does say it's a minor component.
00:57:15 <Fiora> I might be misreading it though, since it seems to be implying there's some larger impact (?)
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00:57:33 <Fiora> I guess I'm also a little confused by "interpreters" that don't execute any instructions <.<
00:59:01 <Bike> that's where the bullshit comes in
01:01:03 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, have you been watching PMMM? I'm about to watch second ep. of Farscape
01:01:53 <Bike> yeah that was a good part
01:08:16 <Fiora> honesty is the best policy
01:08:23 <Fiora> now go watch it sillybutt :p
01:08:29 <Bike> oh i thought you were referring to That Spoiler
01:08:40 <Bike> which i don't know what it is but everybody sure gets excited about it
01:10:11 <Bike> $character was my favorite :(
01:10:38 <Phantom_Hoover> let's face it, it would just be a letdown after farscape
01:10:42 <elliott> imo and when except saturday turkeys
01:12:05 <Bike> elliott i don't think you actually said anything
01:12:22 <Fiora> phantiieee you should watch it
01:12:23 <elliott> how dare you bike, i said that which is !
01:13:07 <Bike> «what our Vatican analyst calls a «hinge point»» who the hell does NBC hire
01:13:51 <elliott> people who quote with «these stupid things»
01:14:09 <Bike> they interviewed a white american guy to say that it was great for latin america
01:14:27 <ion> elliott’s “ ” and the others’ “something (if i got the color code right)” look different in my terminal.
01:14:31 <ion> Ok, i didn’t.
01:14:46 <Bike> elliott, don't make fun of my luxembourgish heritage :(
01:14:53 <Fiora> I think elliott was using spaces and I was doing this
01:15:11 <elliott> i'm literally having to clear my terminal so i don't highlight things because i hate seeing spoilers for anything
01:15:25 <Bike> spoiler: we are talking
01:15:53 <Fiora> elliott: (just to be fair I'm not actually posting any spoilers)
01:16:07 <elliott> because it was just repetition instead
01:16:11 <elliott> Fiora i'm going to have to arrest you
01:16:19 * Fiora hides under a blanket
01:16:20 <elliott> for crimes against humanity
01:16:24 <Fiora> you can't see me you can't arrest meeeee
01:16:44 <elliott> that the legal system has yet to find a way to deal with such new forms of jail avoidance
01:16:59 <elliott> but when we do you are getting locked up
01:17:09 <Phantom_Hoover> more importantly: Fiora lives on an island, we all know what elliott's like with those
01:17:11 <Bike> In spoilerjail?
01:17:23 <elliott> where does fiora live again
01:17:27 <HackEgo> Fiora is from some island somewhere. She just doesn't want to be bothered, as she works out her domination plan as immortal queen of the dragons.
01:17:38 <Bike> it's nice in the summer
01:17:45 <Bike> also the fall, though not the winter
01:17:50 <Bike> ok at best in the spring
01:17:54 <Fiora> um, can we get a better definition
01:18:16 <elliott> i agree, we should make it more specific
01:18:40 <Bike> `run cat "Fiora is from some island south of that other place with the cats. She just doesn't want to be bothered, as she works out her domination plan as immortal queen of the dragons." > wisdom/fiora
01:18:42 <elliott> i didn't actually write mine
01:18:45 <HackEgo> cat: Fiora is from some island south of that other place with the cats. She just doesn't want to be bothered, as she works out her domination plan as immortal queen of the dragons.: No such file or directory
01:18:47 <elliott> that's the best thing about it
01:18:49 <Bike> wow good job me
01:18:51 <Fiora> from another place thing
01:18:52 <elliott> Bike: hi have you heard of echo
01:18:52 <Bike> i am a unix master
01:18:55 <Fiora> "Shoujo, JRPG, strategy, and otome game fangirl. Extended exposure may necessitate insulin. Engages Nitya^H^H^H^H^HBike, her putative genderswap, in jargony conversations of doom."
01:19:07 <Bike> fiora that seems entirely too helpful
01:19:08 <elliott> entries aren't allowed to be accurate Fiora
01:19:27 <Bike> The specificity in my location means it can't be about anything else.
01:19:28 <elliott> if you can falsify it from somewhere between a bit to all of it then we could use it
01:19:46 <HackEgo> Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman and hatheist.
01:19:51 <Bike> How about, "Extended exposure my necessitate BZ"
01:19:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well there are no true scotsmen
01:20:23 <Bike> Fiora: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-Quinuclidinyl_benzilate has been referred to in the media as "zombie gas'
01:21:10 <elliott> so has anyone used it recreationally yet
01:22:18 <elliott> Bike: what's it like in luxembourg by the way
01:22:44 <elliott> `learn Luxembourg is adequate.
01:23:13 <Bike> Fiora: also you should use ^W instead of ^H, it's the wave of the future.
01:24:01 <Fiora> "Shoujo, JRPG, strategy, and otome game fangirl. Putative genderswap of Bike. Extended exposure may necessitate insulin (and possibly x86 assembly manuals). Is actually a human/cat hybrid."
01:24:33 * Fiora not very good at this
01:25:28 <Bike> `learn Fiora is a stack of assembly manuals done up in shoujo makeup.
01:25:35 <Fiora> that is not truueueeeee
01:26:02 <Bike> Well, yeah, I figure I should suppress knowledge of your true nature as queen of the dragons.
01:26:08 <elliott> have we found any true information in the wisdom db yet
01:26:24 <HackEgo> itidus21 just made some instant coffee.
01:26:32 <elliott> he only just made it in the past though
01:26:48 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a lying Norwegian.
01:26:57 <elliott> that one seems mostly accurate I guess
01:27:06 <HackEgo> Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
01:27:13 <monqy> i remember `? elliott being accurate last i checked
01:27:18 <elliott> finally a 100% true wisdom db entry
01:27:51 <Bike> fiora, well, you've just gotta make it funny.
01:27:58 <Bike> and otome games are way too serious to joke about.
01:29:00 <monqy> is this some esoteric "nerd culture" thing
01:29:33 <Fiora> talk about how I'm actually a magical girl cat princess who stalks the streets at night to defeat evildoers with the power of love and SSE
01:29:36 <Bike> worse - the animes
01:30:03 <Bike> fanfiction is also too serious fiora
01:30:03 <monqy> yeah that sounds pretty "nerd culture" to me
01:31:16 <Fiora> Bike: homestuck shipping is totally serious
01:31:20 <Fiora> freakin' vriskapolagists
01:31:35 <monqy> Phantom_Hoover: which part
01:31:52 <Bike> `learn Fiora is a freakin' vriskapologist.
01:32:12 <monqy> is that a sgeo thing
01:32:47 <Fiora> no she's one of my favorite characters <.<
01:32:53 <Fiora> I was making a joke about a dumb drama thing
01:33:02 <Bike> see? freakin' vriskaapologist.
01:33:22 <monqy> hm, dumb drama things . . .
01:33:53 <elliott> monqy your ellipsis is falling apart
01:35:30 <Bike> i'm going to assume that drawing out my name is some kind of gesture of affection and approval of my fiorology
01:36:32 <monqy> formal study of fioro
01:36:55 <Bike> fiorology n. (1) the study of Fioras (2) the study of fioro (3) nickname for Idi Amin
01:37:35 <monqy> ah, you must have been using (3) there
01:37:59 <kmc> who's hosing whom down with BZ now
01:38:03 <Fiora> um. what are you trying to study about me
01:41:15 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
01:41:52 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, is Chrighton assuming that these replicant things are dumb?
01:42:03 <Sgeo> Then again, they are... why reveal that they could do what they did
01:45:14 <kmc> are you a replican or a replicant
01:45:42 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
01:46:08 <ion> repuplicant
01:47:47 <Sgeo> wtf the video restarted to the beginning
01:48:29 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: why are you always complaining about me complaining about things
01:48:29 <monqy> did you put it on "loop"
01:59:27 <kmc> maybe i'll start complaining about how you're always complaining about me complaining about things
01:59:47 <kmc> and then start complaining about how that's a cheap, trite form of meta-humor
02:00:25 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm sorry this whole conversation has become obnoxiously meta
02:01:00 <Phantom_Hoover> can we not do the thing where we attempt to gain the upper hand by standing on each other's feet
02:01:50 <Phantom_Hoover> that is the natural consequence of the overall tactic, yes
02:03:12 <kmc> i don't kiss people who i've never seen in person
02:03:34 <elliott> you pretty much know what you're getting
02:03:59 <kmc> Casper The Homosexual Friendly Ghost?
02:04:26 <kmc> (that's a wesley willis song folks)
02:04:40 <kmc> 2 whats out of 4 whats
02:04:52 <elliott> kmc's #esoteric cultural enrichment program
02:05:05 <kmc> cultural revolution more like
02:06:03 <Bike> Oooh do we have any statues, I want to destroy a statue.
02:06:09 <elliott> hey guys remember when idi amin was the topic for like three minutes
02:06:10 <Bike> I bet elliott's a statue.
02:06:13 <kmc> which hoover we talking about? phantom? herbert? j. edgar? the guy who invented the vacuum cleaner who wasn't actually named hoover?
02:06:34 <elliott> i just remembered you should totally click this and read it http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2002/jun/11/features11.g21
02:06:39 <Bike> if we're talking about people i don't want to kiss i'm going to have to go with j.
02:06:56 <elliott> in which a respected british journalist says "guys i got the chance to shoot that guy and i didn't, sorry, i fucked up"
02:07:29 <Bike> bravado failed him
02:08:31 <monqy> what an article, yikes
02:08:44 <kmc> i too have failed to follow through on various fantasies of killing my fellow passengers while traveling in various conveyances
02:08:46 <Bike> literally a paragraph about killing a guy
02:09:10 <Bike> i mean it would almost make sense as a lead in to a longer article about amin? but nope just yeah i coulda shot that guy
02:09:28 <kmc> i was going to start an ethics discussion about murdering an evil dictator in cold blood, but then I remembered that was an episode of House and it wasn't very good
02:10:38 <elliott> i think the house episode may have been inspired by that possibly
02:10:44 <Phantom_Hoover> can we talk about compiling a list of historical hoovers
02:10:54 <monqy> historical hoovers
02:11:05 <Bike> if you were locked in an elevator with idi amin, jon snow, and simon peyton jones, who would you fuck, who would you kill, and who would you marry?
02:11:51 <Phantom_Hoover> fun fact: the closest thing to a prominent female hoover is miss hoover from the simpsons
02:12:13 <monqy> do i have to do all 3 of those to get out of the elevator
02:12:19 <monqy> do i get out of the elevator at all
02:12:44 <elliott> suicide is not the answer monqy
02:12:45 <monqy> if they're all in the elevator forever they're pretty much dead anyway
02:12:53 <elliott> unless the question is "what is killing yourself called"
02:12:57 <Bike> You have to do all three, in order, without leaving the elevator. After accomplishing all three you will be released.
02:13:14 <elliott> will the two you didn't kill be released
02:13:24 <elliott> are you allowed to select the same person for two of them
02:13:26 <monqy> well you're married to one of them now
02:13:30 <monqy> imprisoned forever
02:13:34 <elliott> it could be a tragically short marraige
02:14:01 <elliott> is the elevator a valid option for any of the three
02:15:04 <kmc> who's jon snow
02:15:52 <kmc> channel 4... oh, you mean in Britain where there are only 4 channels and one is literally named "Channel 4"
02:15:54 <elliott> kmc: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=jon+snow&hl=en&safe=off&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=nDBBUczLO-yX0QWTr4HABQ&ved=0CFsQsAQ&biw=1920&bih=996
02:15:59 <elliott> kmc: hint: it's NOT most of these
02:16:17 <elliott> kmc: there are actually 5 channels
02:16:20 <elliott> the fifth one is named Channel 5
02:16:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: we have to face the harsh reality
02:16:42 <elliott> channel 5 won't go away no matter how much we want it to
02:16:43 <Phantom_Hoover> we didn't have channel 5 when i were a lad and i'm perfectly happy to leave it that way
02:16:46 <kmc> elliott: i cannot watch your video due to a sudden case of Shockwave Flash Crashingitis
02:16:53 <elliott> thank god it's Phantom_Hoover's video then
02:17:07 <elliott> wait i see an opportunity for unwarranted smugness
02:17:15 <elliott> um don't you have the html5 player enabled :)
02:17:19 <elliott> um don't you use youtube-dl :)
02:17:28 <elliott> monqy: it's the fifth channel
02:17:36 <elliott> the one you get to by pressing 5 on your remote, if you tuned your tv correctly
02:17:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: that accident in which he died by fucking, marrying, and then killing an elevator was so tragic :(
02:18:31 <Phantom_Hoover> we still have his scsi port to remember him by, though
02:18:33 <elliott> monqy: also it comes after channel 4
02:18:33 <monqy> i thought it was fuck, then kill, then marry
02:18:40 <monqy> is doing it out of order why he died
02:18:54 <elliott> both his and the elevator's corpse were too mangled to tell :(
02:19:12 <elliott> ok i feel the need to give an impromptu lesson about our tv channels
02:19:21 <elliott> the first channel (1) is BBC1
02:19:33 <monqy> ok i think i found channel 5
02:19:35 <elliott> the second channel (2) is BBC2, it's like BBC1 with slightly higher standards
02:19:47 <elliott> the third channel (3) is ITV1, it's not terribly good
02:20:00 <elliott> the fourth channel (4) is Channel 4 and it's pretty cool
02:20:06 <elliott> the fifth channel (5) is Channel 5 and we don't like to talk about it
02:20:15 <elliott> BBC1 and BBC2 don't have any adverts because of communism
02:20:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: did i forget anything
02:20:35 <elliott> hey isn't ITV1 called something wacky in scotland
02:20:43 <elliott> and doesn't 4 have like a different schedule or something
02:20:52 <Phantom_Hoover> channel 5 mostly lives off the scraps of programmes the better channels cast off and the fungus that grows on parts of its body
02:20:53 <monqy> 5 looks like where they run their uhh
02:21:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: also bad US shows!!
02:21:07 <monqy> csi, men in black 2, more csi
02:21:13 <kmc> oh Peep Show is on Channel 4
02:21:16 <elliott> are you looking at uk tv listings monqy
02:21:16 <monqy> celebrity big brother
02:21:18 <kmc> my opinion of Channel 4 instantly exists
02:21:24 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think it's called wtv in wales because who cares
02:21:35 <elliott> kmc: channel 4 is the ~edgy~ channel of the five channels that exist
02:21:35 <monqy> elliott: not quite
02:21:53 <elliott> monqy: are you looking at the channel five website
02:22:03 <Phantom_Hoover> all of linehan's work, darkplace, spaced, i think brass eye and jam
02:22:03 <elliott> oh let me tell you more things about channel 5
02:22:08 <monqy> For kids programme's starting at 6 am they have Milkshake! showing Thomas and Friends, The Beeps,The WotWots, Peppa Pig, Castle Farm, Little Princess, Ben and Holly's Little Kingdom, The Mr. Men Show, Noddy in Toyland, Fifi and the Flowertots, Roary the Racing Car, Bert and Ernie and Bananas in Pyjamas.
02:22:17 <elliott> which i suspect you might not believe -- monqy: i used to watch that when i was real young --
02:22:25 <Phantom_Hoover> (whether jam is a good comedy series is a matter of some debate)
02:22:44 <elliott> when channel 5 first started existing in 1997 it was called channel 5
02:22:48 <kmc> Spaced is OK, Brass Eye I hear is good, the others I don't know
02:22:53 <elliott> then they renamed it to "five"
02:23:05 <elliott> then a rich guy bought it out
02:23:13 <elliott> and decided "five" was a stupi dname
02:23:16 <elliott> and renamed it back to "Channel 5"
02:23:19 <monqy> Shake! made a return to the channel on 4 October 2009 every Sunday morning after agreeing a deal with Disney. The block features Hannah Montana, Wizards of Waverly Place and Snobs. It also saw the return of Channel 5's hit teen show The Tribe.
02:23:28 <elliott> it has literally gone through two renamings without getting more descriptive than the fifth number
02:23:34 <kmc> i've been watching An Idiot Abroad... that's on Sky1 in HD (pronounced haitch-dee of course)
02:23:47 <monqy> The Tribe is a New Zealand/British post-apocalyptic fictional TV series primarily aimed at teenagers. It is set in a near-future in which all adults have been wiped out by a deadly virus, leaving the children of the world to fend for themselves.
02:23:51 <elliott> kmc: sorry but the channels on sky don't 'actually' 'exist'
02:23:54 <elliott> they're not strictly television, they're 'sky'
02:23:56 <kmc> uh elliott 5 is the sixth number
02:24:09 <elliott> it's the influence of those goddamn mathematicians i swear
02:24:21 <elliott> how do you know what order i was using checkmate??
02:24:25 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, (also jam is a deeply disturbing surrealist thing chris morris did)
02:24:31 <monqy> Series 4 begins just as the Technos are starting their invasion. They possess advanced technology and the Mall Rats are helpless against them.
02:24:44 <monqy> In Series 5, Mega becomes the new leader of the Technos. He has plans to take over the City and is helped by Java, who manipulates Ebony's mind with virtual reality. Ebony, believing Zoot has come back, with her sisters, Java and Siva, create a new Tribe, the Zootists, and take control of the outside of the City.
02:24:47 <elliott> kmc: btw i think spaced was a bit better than ok if i remember correctly, by the way Phantom_Hoover would kill me if i didn't say this
02:24:51 <Bike> kmc: jon snow wrote the shooting amin article
02:24:53 <Phantom_Hoover> (i don't know how to describe it any better beyond the fact that i mostly just found it relaxing, which is itself fairly disturbing)
02:25:00 <monqy> elliott i dont see how any channel with this on it could be bad
02:25:07 <kmc> elliott: ok we can 'agree to disagree'
02:25:13 <kmc> also i haven't seen that many eps. so maybe it gets better
02:25:23 <kmc> or is just one of those things that magically becomes hilarious after you've seen a lot of it
02:25:24 <elliott> kmc: uh haven't you ever heard of aumann's agreement theorem
02:25:27 <kmc> without getting better at any point
02:25:29 <kmc> like jerkcity
02:25:34 <elliott> i think the essential problem is that you're not british
02:26:07 <monqy> Ved starts a relationship with Mall Rat Cloe but when she tells him she is pregnant, he immediately dumps her.
02:26:16 <monqy> realistic teen drama man
02:26:21 <elliott> i'm ok with calling spaced shit because thingy whats his name is now in that new star trek film which has
02:26:22 <monqy> this s*** is relatable
02:26:35 <Bike> is it stupider than Mall Rat Cloe
02:26:49 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, i think if you didn't find the first 2 episodes funny you probably won't like the rest
02:26:49 <elliott> guys its literally called "star trek into darkness" they,re using trek as a VERB
02:26:56 <elliott> you don't know how much this makes me suffer
02:27:12 <monqy> Cloe becomes addicted to reality space and whilst playing the game, vanishes. Ved is distraught as he actually loved her.
02:27:15 <kmc> i like Peep Show and TM&WL and Spaced and TToI and Extras and An Idiot Abroad and most of the other things Gervais and Merchant have done, but I don't like the UK version of The Office which I'm told means I don't "get" British comedy
02:27:19 <Bike> to boldly trek where none had trekked before
02:27:42 <pikhq> No, that would be "Star, Trek Into Darkness".
02:27:46 <elliott> ok maybe i like the title because
02:27:53 <pikhq> Star is definitely an adverb.
02:27:54 <elliott> there's going to be a really forced moment where they try to get the title into dialogue
02:27:56 <Phantom_Hoover> alternately: it's an allegory for what they're doing to cumberbatch and pegg
02:27:56 <kmc> Start Rekin To Darkness
02:28:26 <elliott> "this journey you're taking, to a place that's so dark... are you guys on some kind of... star trek... into darkness???? [beat]"
02:28:28 <kmc> elliott: shit, man, i'm a natural born killer
02:28:55 <kmc> also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8ViTp9uur8
02:29:05 <elliott> monqy: btw what show is this
02:29:06 <monqy> Everyone thinks that Bray is the father of Trudy's baby; however, Bray's brother, Zoot, is the father.
02:29:26 <monqy> elliott: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tribe_(TV_series) i found it from the channel 5 programming article
02:29:39 <monqy> elliott: Shake! made a return to the channel on 4 October 2009 every Sunday morning after agreeing a deal with Disney. The block features Hannah Montana, Wizards of Waverly Place and Snobs. It also saw the return of Channel 5's hit teen show The Tribe.
02:29:47 <monqy> hit teen show!!!!!
02:30:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: sort of kind of
02:30:07 <elliott> be more specific and it might become a yes
02:30:31 <monqy> In 1998, the channel began to show more risqué late-night programmes such as Compromising Situations, Hotline and the controversially explicit Sex and Shopping. In 1999, there was a large increase in adult entertainment shown on the channel, including UK Raw and Red Shoe Diaries, giving the channel a reputation for being home to hours of pornography.
02:30:37 <monqy> thank you channel 5
02:30:57 <monqy> Adult entertainment, live football, and the 21:00 films were the main source of viewing for the channel, causing then-director of programming Dawn Airey to stress that Channel 5 was about "more than just films, football and fucking!", though this quote is still often misquoted as a description of the channel's programming strategy rather than as a denial of that strategy.
02:31:04 <monqy> i see why you say channel 5 is bad now
02:31:22 <kmc> 'Sex and Shopping'
02:31:24 <kmc> what is this show about
02:31:27 <kmc> i mean besides the obvious
02:31:39 <monqy> Sex and Shopping was a documentary series on the global sex industry. The series examines contemporary attitudes concerning commercial sex, censorship and experimentation.
02:31:52 <monqy> sex shopping, i guess
02:31:57 <kmc> that's a lot more highbrow than I was expecting
02:32:02 <elliott> i'd prefer a show that's just like half about sex, half about shopping
02:32:03 <kmc> bit of a bait and switch really
02:32:05 <elliott> no relation between the two
02:32:24 <monqy> The channel attracted some controversy for its reality series The Farm in 2004 and 2005.[42] The show, which revolved around celebrities working on a farm, saw Rebecca Loos masturbating a pig in order to collect semen.
02:32:29 <elliott> captures the core sex/shopping demogrpahic
02:32:44 <Bike> british tv sounds pretty awesome, not gonna lie
02:32:51 <kmc> monqy: not to be confused with the ill fated Dwight-centric 2013 spinoff of The Office (US), also titled The Farm
02:33:14 <monqy> also The level of adult entertainment was scaled back, and reality shows such as Naked Jungle and The Mole proved popular. However, other reality shows such as Touch the Truck and Jailbreak were less successful.
02:33:17 <Phantom_Hoover> "In October 2004, she appeared on the reality television programme The Farm, a Channel 5 version of the RTE show Celebrity Farm, in the course of which she masturbated a boar to collect its semen.[10] The Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals accused producers of pandering to a morbid and sordid fascination with farm animals while PETA and Mediawatch-uk demanded the show be taken off the air."
02:33:24 <monqy> im really curious about what touch the truck is about
02:33:26 <elliott> the worst thing about british tv is that bbc don't have adverts
02:33:35 <Bike> you get taxed, right?
02:33:41 <kmc> it does if you watch via Hulu :)
02:33:42 <elliott> well yes it's a tv license thing
02:33:45 <Bike> fuckin' socialist
02:33:52 <elliott> the hamlet (starring doctor who as hamlet) they did recently
02:33:59 <elliott> by recently i mean years ago btw
02:34:08 <Bike> what, like, brannagh's?
02:34:14 <elliott> you are not peeing during hamlet
02:34:17 <elliott> the bbc will not allow it to happen
02:34:26 <Phantom_Hoover> however the attitude of the tv licensing agency is 'you have a tv and if you aren't paying you're probably hiding one'
02:34:28 <Bike> the irony being that the original play has an intermission doesn't it
02:34:36 <elliott> yes i was hoping there would be an intermission
02:34:43 <elliott> Bike: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1449175/ this one
02:34:49 <Bike> way to piss on shakespeare
02:35:03 <monqy> Touch the Truck was a British Channel 5 endurance gameshow which aired in 2001.
02:35:06 <monqy> It was hosted by Dale Winton[1] and involved a group of 20 contestants holding onto a truck with the last person left touching the truck winning it.
02:35:11 <Phantom_Hoover> you can't watch live feeds from the iplayer, but you /can/ watch tv if it's on a device without an antenna or mains power
02:35:25 <Bike> what the hell is "Modern" about it
02:35:27 <Phantom_Hoover> oh, that last part is also only if your parents have a tv licence
02:35:28 <elliott> also featured in that hamlet: david tennant saying "did you think i meant country matters" in the most explicit way he can think of
02:35:32 <monqy> Jerry Middleton, 39, from Winchester, Hampshire, was the winner who managed to stay awake touching the vehicle for 81 hours 43 minutes and 31 seconds.
02:35:41 <kmc> elliott: failing to bring a pee bucket to Hamlet is a noob mistake
02:35:47 <elliott> it was like COUNT......rrry matters
02:36:11 <elliott> Bike: it was modern because it had cctv cameras and a gun
02:36:40 <kmc> that show should have been called Don't Not Touch The Truck
02:36:44 <Bike> i think my favorite hamlet adaptations are the modern ones
02:36:52 <Bike> there was one where Osric was played by a fax machine
02:36:55 <elliott> monqy: wow i just looked at those lines
02:37:05 <Sgeo> Boring spammer etc http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:JohannaGE
02:37:11 <Bike> yeah i've been sitting here laughing at monqy's quotes for like twenty minutes now
02:37:11 <kmc> also when you say "starring doctor who as hamlet" I assume you mean that the BBC did a serious 4 hour adaptation of Hamlet but then at the end when Hamlet dies (spoiler) he gets up and is like "welp, I'm a time lord" and flies off
02:37:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: is it just me or is david tennant totally doomed
02:37:16 <monqy> A 2001 movie, The Safety of Objects recounts what seems to be exactly a "Touch the Truck" show -- which even relates to the plot. The film chronicles a mother's mental voyage from the losing of his firstborn son to coma till the detachment from him ending in his mercy killing. And the show connects to this as the sleep withdrawn, delirious mother realizes that she'd still have her son if they
02:37:22 <monqy> hadn't had a car -- and abruptly leaves hold of the truck.
02:37:22 <elliott> like there is literally nothing he can do
02:37:26 <elliott> that won't look like the doctor
02:37:43 <Phantom_Hoover> are you just trying to satisfy your desire to see all scotsmen fail in life
02:37:46 <Bike> well doctor who could be in any time
02:37:59 <kmc> yeah exactly
02:38:06 <Bike> think this through, elliott
02:38:14 <tswett> Long Term Relationship
02:38:14 <tswett> “Have sex with a single pony one thousand times.”
02:38:16 <kmc> maybe dr who was shakespeare
02:38:27 <Bike> [beaton comic]
02:38:32 <kmc> tswett: not the girl scouts I signed up for
02:38:54 <elliott> have you guys seen that film "romeo + juliet"
02:39:07 <elliott> (SPEAKING OF MODERNISED SHAKESPEARE ADAPTATIONS THAT STILL USE THE ORIGINAL DIALOGUE,)
02:39:10 <monqy> oh is it the beach one
02:39:14 <elliott> monqy: its the one with leonardo dicapriorefjo
02:39:29 <monqy> i dont know who that is
02:39:41 <Phantom_Hoover> i have spent so many fucking years of my life covering that play
02:39:44 <Bike> romeo + juliet is great sorry
02:39:52 <Bike> DRAW YOUR SWORD *pulls out a gun, of the Sword brand*
02:39:54 <elliott> they shoot guns made by "sword"
02:40:05 <elliott> it'll be less embarrassing for both of us
02:40:09 <Bike> the best costuming in film history right there
02:40:10 <Fiora> Bike: that is still like, the only moment I remember from that movie
02:40:10 <kmc> also Exit Music (For A Film)
02:40:12 <monqy> but i remember i saw some odd romanized romeo&juliet at school when i was like 11 and i looked away during the sex scene
02:40:13 <Fiora> and I cannot help but giggle
02:40:15 <Fiora> every time I think about it
02:40:17 <monqy> there was a sex scene right
02:40:18 <Bike> Fiora: that's because it's amazing
02:40:31 <monqy> i remember there was another older romeo&juliet and it had a sex scene too
02:40:33 <Bike> monqy: well they could hardly sell it if it didn't have sex
02:40:42 <elliott> romeo & juliet adapted to be set in roman times
02:40:43 <Bike> without sex it's like, a bunch of teenagers killing themselves for stupid reasons
02:40:44 <kmc> we hope your rules and wisdom choke you
02:40:56 <Bike> who wants to watch that? who's ever made thirty television shows about that
02:40:57 <monqy> oh wait maybe the other one didnt have a sex scene it just had a breast shot
02:41:06 <Fiora> a bunch of teenagers killing themselves for stupid reasons --> isn't that like every horror movie
02:41:29 <elliott> god dammit what was the other stupid thing about romeo + juliet
02:41:34 <Bike> romeo and juliet and the slasher, let's do it
02:41:40 <kmc> romeo and juliet and zomibes
02:41:43 <kmc> prolly been done 3 years ago
02:41:58 <elliott> wasn't the juliet actor in the zeifjeifjeirjleli version like 13 or something
02:42:12 <Bike> she's 13 in the play!
02:42:15 <Phantom_Hoover> then the teacher turned it off and was all like oh we don't want to watch that it's all stuffy let's watch the cool baz luhrman version instead
02:42:18 <monqy> there are soooooo many romeo and juliets how will i ever find the one i want
02:42:26 <Bike> and romeo is like 27 or something
02:42:33 <Bike> totally normal
02:42:35 <elliott> "The Chief of Police, Captain Prince"
02:42:42 <elliott> ok that may or may not have been the stupid thing i was trying to remember
02:42:44 <elliott> but it's definitely really stupid
02:43:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:43:13 <monqy> wow theyre making another romeo and juliet in 2013
02:43:15 <monqy> whyyyyyyyyyyyYYYYYYYYYYYY
02:43:36 <Bike> Oh Wikipedia mentions Romeo + Juliet as being "MTV inspired".
02:43:40 <Bike> How can you not love this, elliott.
02:43:54 <kmc> HIV inspired
02:44:13 <monqy> i think the 2 i saw were zeffrely and romeo + juliet ye
02:44:23 <elliott> monqy: you know this guy http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/LeonardoDiCaprioNov08.jpg thats the guy, whose in the films
02:44:32 <monqy> elliott: its been like years man
02:44:38 <monqy> i cant remember a THING
02:44:41 <monqy> ooh i might remember uhh
02:44:48 <Bike> i think shakespeare is best enjoyed as ridiculous personally
02:44:49 <monqy> gosh i forget the character;s name
02:45:00 <Bike> like "Much Ado About Nothing", is like three different puns about vaginas, in just the title
02:45:14 <Bike> and Midsummer Night's Dream is just well, have you seen that shit
02:45:35 <elliott> wait i bet there is a youtube of david tennant saying country matters
02:45:50 <elliott> except my browser is frozen because my computer is only marginally better than the fabled dumpster computer
02:46:58 <elliott> well there is a video of the entire thing
02:47:14 <Bike> the whole four hour movie?
02:47:21 <kmc> Bike: makes me wonder which bits of vulgar popular entertainment from today will be held up in 400 years as High Art
02:47:34 <elliott> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF7E1185D25603E4C
02:47:48 <Bike> i'm thinking Jackass
02:47:53 <elliott> I love God and thats all that truly matters.
02:47:53 <elliott> |* * * * * * * * * *|---------------|Put
02:47:53 <elliott> |* * * * * * * * * *|---------------|this
02:47:53 <elliott> |* * * * * * * * * *|---------------|on
02:47:53 <elliott> |* * * * * * * * * *|---------------|your
02:47:55 <elliott> |* * * * * * * * * *|---------------|profile
02:47:56 <Bike> it's all about post-cold-war politics, when you get down to it
02:47:58 <elliott> |------------------------------------|if
02:48:00 <elliott> |------------------------------------|you
02:48:03 <elliott> |------------------------------------|are a
02:48:05 <elliott> |------------------------------------|proud
02:48:08 <elliott> |------------------------------------|American!
02:48:10 <elliott> P.S. PLEASE don't cuss on my page. It just makes you sound like unoriginal idiot who can't find a better way to phrase whatever you want to say. Thanks!! ^-^
02:48:36 <kmc> Bike: yeah they will not believe we were that stupid and will instead over-parse it as sophisticated satire
02:48:55 <kmc> elliott: a true patriot would use Unicode line-drawing characters
02:49:05 <monqy> i've never seen Jackass but maybe i've heard a thing about it and then forgotten that thing
02:49:06 <Bike> the best part about old stupid shit held up as art is that it usually was satire
02:49:13 <Bike> just satire in the form of like being farted on
02:49:23 <kmc> also that flag has only 9 stripes
02:49:37 <Bike> the stars are in totally the wrong pattern, too.
02:49:46 <elliott> i forgot to mention picard is the dude
02:49:54 <kmc> sorry, georgia, maryland, rhode island, and south carolina
02:49:55 <Bike> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/US_flag_33_stars.svg speaking of which, this is the first result for "american flag"
02:49:56 <elliott> its doctor who vs captain picard: the shakespeare performance
02:50:17 <kmc> look forward to seeing that in a news broadcast
02:50:20 <Bike> brannagh's adaptation had Robin Williams as Osric
02:50:22 <monqy> i really would have preferred if it was hamlet in space
02:50:42 <Bike> osric is a guy near the end with like two lines if this helps
02:51:00 <kmc> elliott: 'but even before she can get her knickers on, I've seen everything. Yeah. I've seen it all. '
02:51:17 <elliott> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtYCXO-jAJg#t=4m57s
02:51:24 <monqy> kmc: is that an art thing
02:51:37 <elliott> god its even more blatant than i remembered
02:52:00 <Bike> cunt. ry matters
02:52:36 <monqy> this is just ridiculous
02:52:49 <monqy> its adult's goofing around
02:53:02 <monqy> shaksper was brilliant for making this happen
02:53:05 <Bike> anyway i'm going to go find a few sci-fi hamlet adaptations
02:53:25 <Bike> preferably not like, the lion king, but we'll see
02:53:25 <monqy> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4twhFgogHVU quick search
02:53:49 <elliott> are you calling the lion king scifi
02:54:00 <Bike> It's post-apocalyptic. Think about it.
02:54:21 <monqy> this hamlet in space adaptation is p.good
02:54:28 <Bike> "He played up the Oedipal overtones of the play, to the extent of casting the 28-year-old Eileen Herlie as Hamlet's mother, opposite himself (aged 41) as Hamlet" hamlet adaptations are an art form
02:55:49 <Bike> "Indeed, Gibson was cast after Zeffirelli watched his character contemplate suicide in the first Lethal Weapon film.[22]"
02:57:18 <monqy> Hamlet, or The Last Game Without MMORPG Features, shaders and Product Placement is an award winning indie adventure game based on William Shakespeare's Hamlet. It was developed by indie game developer mif2000.
02:57:31 <monqy> In the tradition of classic adventure games
02:58:16 <elliott> i would like to see an adaption of macbeth with dogs
02:58:18 <Bike> it was pretty hard figuring out polonius's attack pattern....
02:59:00 <kmc> playing poker
02:59:05 <elliott> while we're on the subject of hamlet
03:00:08 <elliott> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z9Ismh1elM
03:00:09 <Bike> "Comics and graphic novels have utilised the play, or have dramatised the circumstances of its inception: Superman himself wrote the play for Shakespeare in the course of one night, in the 1947 Shakespeare's Ghost Writer."
03:01:42 <elliott> i'm so glad monqy elected that guy to govern
03:02:32 <monqy> elliott: have you seen hercules in new york yet, or on that note gamebox 1.0
03:02:56 <elliott> monqy: can you come to england and bring these important cultural artefacts
03:03:04 <elliott> in return you can watch channel 5
03:03:55 <kmc> elliott: omg that video
03:04:04 <kmc> also wilhelm scream @ 0:56
03:04:12 <kmc> i assume self consciously given what movie this is
03:04:23 <Bike> see? deep satire.
03:04:28 <monqy> Hercules in New York is a 1969 low-budget fantasy adventure film. It is notable for being the first feature film to star Arnold Schwarzenegger, who was about 22 years old when the film was produced. However, it is one of the films that Schwarzenegger admits regretting having appeared in.
03:04:33 <elliott> well it's a joke inside another film (which i haven't seen)
03:04:45 <Bike> "Charlie Colburn (Nate Richert) is a video game tester with a troubled past."
03:04:58 <monqy> Bike: have you never seen them either??? gosh
03:05:13 <monqy> theyre very good films
03:05:29 <Bike> no, i saw existenz instead
03:05:51 <kmc> omg that movie
03:06:05 <monqy> As in Videodrome, Cronenberg gives his psychological statement about how humans react and interact with the technologies that surround them. In this case, the world of video games.
03:06:11 <shachaf> Also I mexande and other people.
03:06:13 <kmc> shachaf: trip report plz
03:06:14 <Bike> yeah it's great
03:06:25 <Bike> it involves hiding firearms in a dog
03:06:28 * shachaf needs to go -- will report later.
03:06:54 <elliott> guys i haven't seen barely any bad films at all
03:06:59 <elliott> i feel like i'm really missing out
03:07:01 <monqy> dang i should watch existenz
03:07:12 <Bike> i love cronenberg no joke
03:07:26 <kmc> i'm not sure if it's actually a good movie, but it's a nice mindfuck
03:07:32 <kmc> especially if you are very stoned while watching it
03:07:53 <Bike> though i like lynch more
03:08:00 <Bike> especially since he's in that show about some comedian for some reason
03:08:39 <monqy> which show about some comedian
03:08:45 <Bike> yeah, louie ck
03:08:57 <kmc> yeah that was a kinda odd inside joke
03:09:08 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qob3FTPJ7cM
03:09:08 <kmc> "we need a weird dude for this scene" "what if it's david lynch"
03:09:24 <kmc> Louie is a good show
03:10:45 <kmc> the arc with Lynch is a liiiiitle self-indulgant, but it has its moments
03:10:56 <kmc> it's a lot more continuity than the show usually goes for
03:11:03 <elliott> i should really watch some lynch stuff
03:11:14 <kmc> elliott: i haven't seen it either
03:11:39 <Bike> eraserhead is some fucked up shit, just so you know
03:11:47 <Bike> recommend it to people you dislike, such as myself
03:12:23 <Bike> the last guy i convinced to watch it apparently sees me in nightmares now
03:12:42 <elliott> i'm not down with his culty transcendental meditation stuff though, that's what we in the biz refer to as `wack' (technical term)
03:13:06 <Bike> yeah i go for the "assume famous people are fucking crazy and don't pay attention to them" strategy generally speaking
03:13:51 <monqy> eraserhead was hard for me to watch but overall i enjoyed it
03:14:08 <Bike> also twin peaks is really good, def. my favorite anime
03:14:13 <elliott> i have hangups about beck's scientology too. i don't care about travolta and i'm not sure why, i think he is just too wack to care about
03:14:18 <monqy> i;ve never seen twin peaks :( :( i should
03:14:23 <elliott> Bike: btw bikes are common everyday objects
03:14:28 <elliott> its not surprising that they'd occur in dreams of all sorts
03:14:44 <Bike> yeah that's the weird thing, he'd never dreamt about bikes before! but now he does
03:14:52 <elliott> i think all i've seen of eraserhead is In Heaven
03:15:26 <elliott> also i've seen the "fuck that shit, pabst blue ribbon" scene in blue velvet
03:15:30 <elliott> and that's all the lynch i've seen i think
03:16:05 <elliott> oh i've heard the twin peaks theme too. good theme.
03:16:14 <elliott> but i didn't hear it with my eyes so it doesn't count
03:17:24 <Bike> I think his short "Rabbits" is still on youtube
03:17:34 <Bike> alt. his commercials. you've all seen his PS2 and cigarette commercials i hope.
03:18:54 <elliott> oh i've seen some of that rabbits thing i think
03:19:14 <elliott> on relisten in heaven sounds weirdly like the talking heads song to me
03:19:24 <Bike> once in a lifetime
03:19:37 <elliott> not that talking heads song
03:19:57 <Bike> have you seen the music video for it? it works
03:20:10 <Bike> also it's the only one i can remember the name of reliably, so there,
03:20:26 <elliott> i was thinking of this talking heads song [imagine there's a link here and my browser isn't frozen]
03:20:46 <Bike> yes, but it's a link to Once in a Lifetime
03:20:59 <monqy> i think the only talking heads song ive heard is the one in that one lasagna cat video
03:21:01 <elliott> that's not the link that's there
03:21:16 <elliott> monqy: which one is that again. i remember a talking heads song in lasanga cat but i cant remember which it was
03:21:30 <monqy> eyes without a face i think??? i think that's what it's called??
03:21:42 <elliott> false alarm it's "waking up"
03:21:52 <monqy> i got my artists confused
03:22:13 <monqy> im no good with this
03:22:51 <elliott> i was thinking of this talking heads song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bKW7JkHKm8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zNdMc6wGtU
03:22:59 <elliott> you get two links for the price of one because of the delay
03:23:02 <Bike> that's two songs
03:23:12 <elliott> going to go out on a limb and suggest that the linking factor here is the word "heaven"
03:23:41 <Bike> yeah this...doesn't really sound like in heaven at all
03:24:44 <elliott> yes i don't know what i was thinking in retrospect
03:24:46 <Bike> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IugOfDBWcGc lynch has done music somehow. it also doesn't sound like in heaven
03:24:52 <elliott> is that from dark night of the soul
03:26:36 <Bike> i think it's just a single
03:26:48 <Bike> there's also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caWXt9lCVrc which i'm reasonably sure is satan
03:27:20 <Bike> oh, uh, it has tits in it.
03:27:23 <kmc> http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhfztj1cTy1qcziuco1_500.gif
03:27:43 <elliott> monqy: while talking heads is in my scrollback i should tell you to watch david byrne interviewing himself https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE-mxVxFXLg
03:29:00 <Bike> i just like to imagine david lynch giving the directions for this video
03:29:22 <monqy> that clown video is uncomfortable to watch
03:29:30 <kmc> elliott: that's great
03:30:13 <Bike> wow, his... proportions
03:32:29 <elliott> Bike: (that suit doesnt fit him)
03:32:51 <Bike> yes he explained
03:32:56 <Bike> thank you mr bryne.
03:33:03 <monqy> this interview is good
03:33:05 <kmc> it's like 60 minutes on acid
03:34:06 <monqy> that interview was good
03:38:07 <Bike> apparently the 60 minutes on acid thing actually happened. i should lsiten to more heads
03:38:36 <elliott> Bike: let david lynch sing you to sleep https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbtUAlFN8po
03:40:30 <Bike> aren't you the one who needs to sleep, generaly speakkkking
03:41:10 <elliott> well i don't hate myself so i wouldn't generally select david lynch for lullaby material
03:41:21 <elliott> do you see how the cogs turn Bike
03:41:55 <elliott> it's ok it's a nice kind of hate
03:42:40 <Bike> what is a nice kind of hate
03:43:08 <elliott> that's for me to know & you to find out
03:43:47 <Bike> is it a sex thing
03:44:35 <elliott> sources unconfirmed but suggest no
03:45:16 <elliott> there's no certainty in life, Bike
03:45:49 <Bike> is there certainty in sex
03:46:17 <monqy> what do they say to kids these days
03:47:27 <elliott> what don't they say to kids these days. the answer is nothing
03:47:46 <monqy> i'm sure it'd explain someone
03:56:47 -!- madbr has joined.
03:58:10 <madbr> my stupid VM based on a switch case can run about 250 million ops per second (in the brain dead case of loop: sub r0, r0, #1 jnz loop: )
03:58:42 <madbr> on a 2.8ghz core2, that's about 10 real cycles for a virtual cycle
03:58:54 <elliott> sorry madbr we're all dead
04:04:09 <Bike> i want to say there was a rap song titled "ghost of a bicycle"
04:05:59 <elliott> Bike: how did you become a bicycle
04:07:23 <Bike> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPn6nNOnWIM
04:13:17 <elliott> huh clouddead are weirder than i was lead to believe. i should listen to them
04:13:54 <Bike> rifle eyes is good, it has urinals
04:15:00 * Sgeo suddenly wonders if elliott might consider him evil. Working for an ISP that takes some (not that strong) actions against piracy
04:15:10 <Sgeo> (In the future, I mean, if I get the job)
04:15:15 <kmc> you work for... oh
04:22:43 <Sgeo> I hate everyone except the top commenter here http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/1a7zuy/paul_ryan_admits_that_his_entire_budget_is_based/
04:25:38 <kmc> i've spent years working up the willpower to not click links when people say things like that
04:25:57 <monqy> if its from reddit it's probably bad news
04:26:11 <monqy> also if sgeo gives an opinion on it when he links it
04:32:24 <Bike> also it's about paul ryan.
04:32:28 <Sgeo> What if I give a positive opinion? (In general I mean, not this specific case)
04:32:47 <Bike> No positive opinions on the internet.
04:32:53 <lambdabot> *** "admit" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
04:32:53 <lambdabot> v 1: declare to be true or admit the existence or reality or
04:32:53 <lambdabot> truth of; "He admitted his errors"; "She acknowledged that
04:32:53 <lambdabot> she might have forgotten" [syn: {admit}, {acknowledge}]
04:33:14 <Sgeo> Maybe a bot should post the definition of admit whenever someone uses that word
04:33:23 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
04:34:06 <Bike> maybe the bot should stop being so pedantic!
04:34:17 <Bike> maybe the bot should learn what "microsaccade" means
04:35:47 <Bike> oh also: paul ryan is never going to be relevant again, right?
04:36:24 <elliott> looks like hes relevant because were talking about hi min #esoteric thgeo
04:36:39 <monqy> paul ryan sounds like a name i've heard but i try to avoid that sort of conversation. the type that mentions names like that.
04:46:28 <Bike> looks like a neverhood character
04:46:46 <Bike> rather less like a neverhood character
04:48:04 <monqy> my first thought was fish but on second thought that was a dumb thought
04:48:18 <monqy> maybe a belt buckle?
04:48:34 <monqy> or a sash...buckle....
04:52:05 -!- Jafet has joined.
04:52:58 <shachaf> The 99¢ pizza tasted like pizza.
04:53:10 <Bike> What, really? How?
05:09:12 <Sgeo> There is at least one person on Reddit who argues that if you drive drunk and don't hit someone, it's a victimless crime.
05:09:21 <Sgeo> http://np.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/1a18ae/dwi_lawswhy_i_became_a_libertarian/c8t9837
05:10:05 <Bike> Why are you reading r/Libertarian?
05:11:22 <Sgeo> It was linked to from a comment in an anti-libertarian subreddit. Which I was only reading because it was linked to from /r/PoliticalHumor
05:11:50 <Bike> How deep does the rabbit hole go?
05:12:08 <monqy> well somehow sgeo managed to find /r/PoliticalHumor
05:12:43 <Sgeo> I don't remember how I found it, I subbed a while ago
05:13:20 <kmc> there are all kinds of awful people on reddit
05:13:27 <kmc> you should not be surprised nor do you need to tell us about them
05:13:32 <elliott> you don't understand kmc. we have to know about each and every one of them
05:13:37 <elliott> its sgeos curse, sgeos fate, sgeos undoing, sgeos promise to the world
05:13:58 <monqy> somehow sgeo subbed to r/politicalhumor
05:14:01 <monqy> somehow sgeo found reddit
05:14:09 <Bike> So, this is boring, do any of you read the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy?
05:14:16 <kmc> i have read some articles from it
05:14:26 <elliott> is that the one with the webpages
05:14:30 <elliott> it's kind of like wikipedia but with less pictures
05:14:49 <monqy> i think it had an article on it that i glanced over? i forget what it was about
05:14:54 <kmc> philosophy
05:15:17 <Bike> It has lots of in-depth articles that are better than the ones Wikipedia doesn't have, such as on Church's type theory or the history of transfeminism.
05:15:17 <elliott> also the pages are quite yellow
05:15:25 <Bike> Also the pages are quite yellow.
05:16:10 <Bike> oh, i should read the constructivism articles
05:16:19 <Bike> so i could see what the fuck is going through zeilberger's head, maybe
05:16:40 <elliott> ultrafinitism isnt really the same thing as mainstream constructivism........
05:16:54 <Bike> That's why i said "articles", see
05:17:01 <shachaf> imo only numbers smaller than 3 exist
05:17:28 <elliott> constructivism is just good old wanting Evidence™ for propositions
05:17:37 <monqy> i dont understand ultrafinitism................philosophy is silly
05:17:38 <elliott> so excluded middle is rejected because it doesn't provide evidence for either P or not P
05:17:55 <elliott> and then that of course gets you computable meaning as your evidence (hence curry-howard)
05:17:57 <Bike> oh ultrafinitism doesn't have an article :(
05:18:01 <monqy> i understand constructivism thankfully
05:18:06 <elliott> where lem roughly corresponds to being able to predict the future
05:18:17 <elliott> (you can do it with call/cc but it lies)
05:18:21 <Bike> yeah constructivism is "so easy", it's all kolmogorov-brouwer-------
05:18:32 <shachaf> constructivism is a monoids??
05:18:32 <Bike> probably more names
05:18:42 <Bike> who the fuck is heyting? i don't know.
05:18:44 <shachaf> i like how elliott predicted i would say that..
05:18:55 <monqy> it was pretty obvious
05:18:57 <Bike> oh, a student of brouwer
05:19:06 <elliott> tho you can think of ultrafinitism quite simply as rejecting the notion that the standard inductive definition of the naturals gives evidence that all of them exist
05:19:14 <Bike> «The inclusion of Brouwer's name in the Brouwer–Heyting–Kolmogorov interpretation is largely honorific, as Brouwer was opposed in principle to the formalisation of certain intuitionistic principles (and went as far as calling Heyting's work a "sterile exercise")» amazing
05:19:25 <elliott> (but accepting that e.g. 4 exists because it's pretty easy to give evidence that a number that small exists)
05:19:34 <Bike> How do you give evidence that a number exists
05:20:12 <Bike> How do you give evidence that 0 exists, or that S(a number) is a number.
05:20:29 <Bike> No, seriously, I want to know.
05:20:45 <Bike> Like why not just say no numbers exist.
05:20:47 <elliott> it doesnt really make sense to ask like 0 exists.... you define it as being a thing
05:21:01 <elliott> its just a question of how much power you allow your definitions to have
05:21:13 <Bike> oh so it's just a matter of my axioms are better than yours
05:21:31 <Bike> or rather, yours are better than mine, because you are elliott
05:22:14 <elliott> btw this article on church's type theory has explicit substitution. therefore it sucks
05:22:23 <Bike> it's not like "my axioms are better than yours" is inherently bad, i just want to know that that's what it is
05:22:36 <elliott> monqy: do you agree that variables as strings / explicit alpha-conversion / and so on are sinful
05:22:42 <Sgeo> "You know what's a complete waste of time, money, and effort? Eating. I mean, wouldn't you rather just ingest a tasteless form of sustenance for the rest of your life and never have to go through that tedious rigmarole of opening and eating a premade sandwich or feasting on a pile of fried delicacies ever again? "
05:22:44 <elliott> Bike: well it can also be about interpretations of axioms
05:22:50 <elliott> and whether you consider certain axiom sets to define coherent notions
05:23:07 <Sgeo> I gather that the intended answer to that rhetorical question is supposed to be 'no', but...
05:23:09 <madbr> sgeo: that's usually an argument for the usefulness of art no?
05:23:39 <Bike> One time I said I'd rather just eat monkey corpses since they'd be most nutritious
05:23:45 <Bike> turns out I was wrong about monkey corpses though.
05:23:59 <shachaf> live monkeys are more nutritious
05:24:00 <ion> Cuneiform signs seem to be quite complicated. 𒋪
05:24:25 <Sgeo> madbr, do you not know about my food issues?
05:24:36 <Sgeo> I would happily answer the posed question with "Yes, please"
05:24:37 <madbr> ah, no, didn't knew
05:24:54 <Sgeo> Or, well, I guess I do like tasting things sometimes, but it's a bit of a chore
05:25:15 <Bike> you have food issues? beyond being a bachelor i assume
05:25:18 <madbr> I'm a bit the other way around :3
05:25:42 <shachaf> that's like a bachelor, except with bagels
05:26:34 <Bike> One of the things SEP's article mentioning ultrafinitism ("ultra-finitism") cites about it is "Understanding the Infinite". that is the title
05:26:58 <Sgeo> Bike, I don't really like eating
05:27:04 <Sgeo> I tend to have to force myself to eat.
05:27:15 <Bike> oh i know people like that
05:27:25 <kmc> jupiter and beyond the infinite
05:27:52 <Bike> ultrafinitists don't believe in anything beyond jupiter kmc
05:28:16 <shachaf> i don't even believe in england
05:28:56 <monqy> sgeo have you considered liquid food
05:29:06 <Bike> It's too bad there aren't enough ultrafinitists for there to be pissing matches about who believes in less numbers. Though I guess restricting numbers that exist to computable vs defineable vs whatever is like that.
05:29:16 <monqy> then you can use a straw and it's less obtrusive. you can even use your hands while you suck it up
05:29:22 <Sgeo> I used to rely on Ensure when I was a kid
05:29:31 <Sgeo> I mean, I think I did eat solid food
05:29:35 <Sgeo> But lunch was Ensure
05:29:36 <shachaf> http://www.theonion.com/video/new-wearable-feedbags-let-americans-eat-more-move,14238/
05:29:46 <madbr> numbers exist up to 2^32-1
05:30:25 <Bike> you know i read part of a bajillion page thesis once that argued in part that what computers deal with aren't semantically numbers because wraparound is some dumb bullshit
05:31:07 <kmc> integers mod 2^32 are an ok algebraic structure aren't they
05:31:09 <shachaf> uhhhh numbers mod n are still numbers??
05:31:10 <madbr> ridiculous and also there are bignums
05:31:26 <madbr> which can totally be implemented in practice
05:31:28 <Bike> kmc: except for 2^32 not being prime, i guess.
05:31:35 <kmc> it's... almost prime
05:31:46 <Bike> it is like the opposite of prime it's made of twos
05:31:47 <shachaf> Maybe you have to pick a Mersenne prime for numbers mod 2^n to be good
05:31:47 <kmc> it has only one prime factor
05:31:55 <Bike> anyway i think i caricaturized the argument there
05:31:59 <shachaf> Hmm, that's not even 2^n. Never mind.
05:32:03 <Bike> just, pretend i said something that sounded less dumb
05:32:04 <elliott> bignums aren't really that big
05:32:14 <kmc> Bike i expect all arguments on IRC to be presented in full nuance and detail
05:32:17 <elliott> since you are limited by ram, which is guaranteed finite on pretty much every architecture
05:32:37 <Bike> uh... is there an architecture where it's not
05:32:48 <madbr> elliott: except you can interface with the HDD
05:32:56 <Bike> the HDD being infinite
05:33:03 <Bike> ram and beyond the infinite, i guess
05:33:09 <madbr> and if that's not enough you can interface with the CLOUD
05:33:10 <elliott> madbr: with finite addresses
05:33:29 <Bike> also doing arithmetic on media sounds slow and painful
05:33:44 <Bike> like i know they do it but. pain
05:34:08 <Bike> at that point you should probably just switch to interpreting the states of your machine in a manner consistent with larger numbers
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05:57:37 <elliott> Bike: we had a wonderful 20 seconds without you.
05:57:51 <Bike> why must you cause me such pain
05:58:41 <coppro> elliott: you missed a second
05:59:15 <Bike> thats so sad elliott
05:59:24 <Bike> have you tried being good at other things?
06:00:50 <coppro> elliott: what year of school are you in again?
06:01:40 <monqy> ???????????????????????????????
06:01:54 <Bike> don't be rude, monqy.
06:02:04 <monqy> ???????????????????????????????????????
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06:05:47 <coppro> he's designing a new language
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06:09:46 <Bike> monqy is the ghost of chuck moore
06:09:50 <monqy> nah i was just really confused
06:10:05 <Bike> is the idea of elliott being in school confusing
06:10:06 <monqy> still am but i've run out of steam you know
06:10:17 <monqy> nah it's more that coppro would ask in the manner he did, or perhaps even at all
06:10:27 <Bike> what if it was me asking
06:10:44 <Bike> hey elliott, what year of school you in?
06:10:51 <monqy> i'd be really confused if it was me asking, since that's not a question i like to ask
06:12:08 <Bike> i think i'll just assume that everybody in this channel is either slightly younger than me and in MENSA or slightly older than me and has three PhDs
06:12:38 <elliott> that doesn't account for oerjan who is a lot older than you (this applies regardless of your age)
06:12:50 <monqy> Q: is oerjan older than oerjan
06:12:59 <Bike> he's just an outlier
06:12:59 <pikhq> And I don't think we have any actual MENSA members.
06:13:13 <Bike> i don't think any of you have three PhDs either, but here we are
06:13:25 <Bike> with me sitting here making assumptions about you and writing shachaf fanfiction
06:13:33 <pikhq> Sure, I *could*. But why would i want to?
06:14:07 <Bike> get three PhDs? i don't know but it sounds like a hilariously bad decision
06:14:17 <pikhq> Join MENSA more-like.
06:14:25 -!- oerjan has joined.
06:14:26 <Bike> oh. i have no idea. elitism?
06:14:30 <Bike> i guess that's an idea.
06:14:51 <Bike> But you're one of the ones slightly older than me, so you're ineligible.
06:15:34 <shachaf> shachaf fanfiction? i'd read that
06:15:42 <elliott> hey oerjan we were just talking about how old you are
06:15:45 <shachaf> well actually i'd probably skim it and get bored
06:15:50 <Bike> what, are you younger than me too
06:15:50 <shachaf> just like with most fanfiction
06:15:56 <Bike> am i some kind of giant of ages here
06:16:29 * oerjan shakes his cane at Bike
06:16:40 <elliott> Bike: btw you're really old
06:16:53 <oerjan> (disclaimer: i don't actually have a cane)
06:16:56 <elliott> i can't even imagine being 20. back me up here monqy
06:16:57 <pikhq> And oerjan is older than the Sun.
06:17:07 <monqy> being an adult sounds scary
06:17:11 <monqy> i dont think it actually exists
06:17:20 <Sgeo> Suddenly I feel old
06:17:27 <elliott> monqy: im going to be an adult in a few months :(
06:17:28 <monqy> probably i'll die on my 18th birthday and only my soulless husk will cary on
06:17:29 <pikhq> monqy: The secret is, you never actually become an adult.
06:17:32 <elliott> i don't know how to prepare
06:17:42 <pikhq> You just eventually realize that those kids are on *your* lawn!
06:17:45 <elliott> thinking about giving up on life and becoming a hermit
06:17:51 <pikhq> And those punks should get off!
06:17:54 <elliott> well i guess i already did that
06:18:09 <pikhq> elliott: I recommend against it.
06:18:13 <Bike> god if this channel is full of shut in weirdos too i don't know what i'm going to do. probably nothing
06:18:22 <elliott> pikhq: it worked for a few years
06:18:28 * Sgeo was born in the 80s
06:18:38 <elliott> Bike: is there some other channel also full of shut in weirdos. sounds literally impossible
06:18:54 <Bike> EVERY CHANNEL is full of shut in weirdos
06:18:55 <pikhq> Bike: I'm arguably not a shut-in?
06:19:06 <Bike> i'm starting to think irc isn't the best place to socialize with well-adjusted people!
06:19:31 <Fiora> I resemble that remark!
06:19:44 <pikhq> That's probably going to change at least a tiny bit once the antidepressants kick in though.
06:19:47 <elliott> iirc i was well-adjusted once
06:19:54 <HackEgo> 443) <oerjan> i try to be a hermit but it's hard with all these housemates.
06:19:57 <elliott> but i kind of grew out of it
06:20:17 <pikhq> Also, I've never been well-adjusted and never will be.
06:20:22 <Bike> i should probably find antidepressants that do something other than make me throw up but it's hard
06:21:03 <elliott> what more could you want out of an antidepressant
06:21:16 <Bike> well, not throwing up
06:21:21 <Bike> or maybe throwing up like, candy
06:21:28 <pikhq> elliott: I dunno, increasing extracellular serotonin in the brain?
06:21:30 <Bike> but then i'd get fat...
06:21:42 <monqy> you could donate the candy to starving children
06:21:43 <Bike> tough question, elliott. tough question.
06:21:44 <pikhq> Bike: No you wouldn't. That's calories lost!
06:22:01 <monqy> fatten them up for other starving children???
06:22:11 <elliott> are you suggesting starving children eat each other monqy
06:22:24 <monqy> well what do you do with the dead bodies
06:22:30 <monqy> might as well nourish the others
06:22:34 * Fiora looks up. wow, I'm old
06:22:36 <elliott> burn them for fuel to make antidepressants with probably
06:22:40 <pikhq> Soylent green is people, and also delicious.
06:22:46 <elliott> Fiora: i don't know how old you are but i agree
06:23:03 <Bike> fiora is in fact trans-pikhq in age
06:23:06 * kmc is also old
06:23:07 <Bike> terrifying to contemplate
06:23:15 <kmc> being an adult is something that sneaks up on you
06:23:27 <kmc> for most people anyway
06:23:28 <elliott> i think kmc is like half-way between me and fizzie or something
06:23:39 <kmc> if your parents are murdered by ninjas and you have to get revenge, that's different
06:23:41 <elliott> which is scary because I don't like the idea that there's a path between my age and fizzie's age
06:23:45 <pikhq> I'm not convinced that I'm an adult.
06:23:50 <kmc> i turned 25 last month
06:24:04 <oerjan> kmc: that _does_ sound pretty sneaking up too, actually
06:24:09 <elliott> have you got any grey hairs / wrinkles / heart diseases yet
06:24:34 <pikhq> But then I've spent much of the past few years barely plodding along, in some years practically being a hikikomori.
06:24:35 <kmc> probably one grey hair somewhere
06:24:41 <pikhq> You're not gonna be adult-feeling doing that.
06:24:44 <kmc> i think my heart is ok, trying to get in better shape though
06:24:44 <monqy> pikhq: is that a nerd culture thing
06:24:51 <oerjan> i have a bald spot on my head! does that count?
06:24:58 <pikhq> monqy: Hikikomori? No.
06:25:02 <kmc> my balls are very wrinkly but that's been the case for a long time
06:25:17 <elliott> oerjan: does it have heart disease
06:25:28 <oerjan> elliott: not to my knowledge.
06:25:32 <elliott> btw do you still look exactly like dijkstra
06:25:54 <oerjan> oh and i have some wrinkles under my eye.
06:25:54 <Bike> hikikomori is the japanese word for "shut in", except they also pathologize it (more)
06:26:26 <elliott> http://www.born-today.com/btpix/dijkstra_edsger.jpg picture of oerjan
06:26:56 <Bike> that... is that actually dijkstra?
06:26:57 <monqy> Bike: ah. so not quite but maybe tangentially related to nerds & their culture
06:27:00 <Bike> he looks way too young
06:27:12 <oerjan> http://oerjan.nvg.org/face.gif~ actual, but old picture.
06:27:15 <Bike> monqy: well there's also the implication that you spend all your time watching animes
06:27:24 <monqy> Bike: ah, that's the ticket
06:27:29 <oerjan> nearly 20 years old now, i think
06:27:52 <Bike> logically, pikhq must be really into Puellae Maegie Maudoukau Maugiukau
06:28:02 <monqy> i hear he's kind of a pedant about it
06:28:14 <elliott> oerjan: it's impossible to describe how wrong that camera is about your appearance
06:28:18 <pikhq> Bike: I did enjoy the series.
06:28:27 <elliott> guys tell me whether my link or oerjan's link looks more like oerjan
06:28:37 <monqy> i dont know what oerjan looks likle
06:28:46 <elliott> monqy: here's a pic http://www.born-today.com/btpix/dijkstra_edsger.jpg
06:28:49 <pikhq> And I'm psychotically pedantic at times.
06:28:50 <monqy> i'll just put oerjan's pic through "in 20 years"
06:28:55 <oerjan> elliott: i'm sure i must have mentioned that i cannot have a beard as i cannot stand the itching to get it
06:29:07 <elliott> well you kind of have to, sorry
06:29:08 <oerjan> (also because i don't have any actual desire to get one)
06:29:25 <Bike> pikhq: Psychotically pedantic... does that mean somebody's like "no it's spelt madokau" and you're like "ARG STOP SPLITTING INFINITIVES"
06:29:50 <pikhq> No, I'm also not literally insane.
06:30:02 <pikhq> Though I'm pushing it.
06:30:07 <Fiora> though everyone almost always thinks I'm younger until I start blathering about dumb cpu things
06:30:11 <Bike> well 'psychotic' means you hallucinate and shit right
06:30:16 <elliott> wow Fiora is almost as old as kmc
06:30:18 <elliott> and kmc is almost as old as fizzie
06:30:26 <elliott> and fizzie is... a few orders of magnitude away from oerjan
06:30:35 <pikhq> Fiora: Ah, you're nearly a lich then.
06:30:37 <Bike> fizzie is almost as old as oerjan's fourth generation spawn
06:30:42 <monqy> http://www.in20years.com/shared/8/ager/1303146/aged_wb20130314013004762421.png i think we have our answer
06:31:20 <elliott> soon fizzie will be old as the last syllable of the current aeonic utterance of oerjan, the ur-being, the maker & unmaker of all, the alpha, the omega, the being, the is, the isn't
06:32:20 <Fiora> there's something about always being assumed to be younger that makes one feel even older <.<
06:32:36 <pikhq> That is not dead which can eternal lie, and in strange aeons even death my die?
06:32:44 <elliott> nice in20years.com has a field for whether you are a drug addict or not
06:32:55 <pikhq> Fiora: There's something damned odd about never getting carded.
06:32:57 <Bike> maybe you should just act like you're 107, and then surprise people when you reveal you're actually only barey transpikhq
06:33:36 <elliott> Oops.. We couldn't detect a face in the photo. Please try a different one.
06:33:38 <pikhq> Transpikhq... That is a very strange phrasing to me now.
06:33:38 <Fiora> pikhq: I'd imagine I'd get carded, and then they'd spend a minute looking it over for marks of a fake
06:33:42 <Fiora> but I've never bought alcohol
06:33:45 <elliott> thats what i got when i tried to age up the dijkstra photo
06:33:47 <pikhq> Life experience confuses!
06:33:52 <monqy> elliott: sometimes you can get it to detect faces on things that aren't actually faces
06:33:53 <Fiora> ... oh. actually. I did like, once, for a bottle of cooking wine.
06:33:54 <oerjan> monqy: i _do_ recognize a bit of those protruted cheeks, i'll admit.
06:34:22 <monqy> or it detects a face but it detects it in the wrong place
06:34:58 <Bike> pikhq: i basically have no idea how to decline your name i'm afraid
06:35:07 * Fiora poofs back to finishing up gundam 00
06:35:16 <pikhq> I don't know Latin either, so.
06:35:37 <Bike> plus i only know "kh" from like, "khanate" probably
06:35:43 <oerjan> monqy: wait you probably selected "drug addict", didn't you.
06:35:54 <Bike> "khq" is just ridiculous
06:36:10 <monqy> a striking resemblance???
06:36:10 <elliott> oerjan is a drug addict irl thats why he recognised the cheeks
06:36:54 <oerjan> Fiora: btw everyone always assumes me to be younger too.
06:37:17 <pikhq> "Transpikhq" is just weird to me cause I've somehow gotten to the point where "trans" -> "transgender" in my head.
06:37:19 <Bike> everyone except elliott, drummer to the mad god
06:37:21 <elliott> or actually on the internet
06:37:28 <elliott> because irl doesn't really count imho
06:37:30 <Bike> pikhq: i still associate trans/cis with chemistry
06:37:51 <Bike> cispikhq isomer
06:38:14 <monqy> 'trans' is everywhere
06:38:26 <monqy> sometimes i use the word 'transcend' i think it's a good word
06:38:35 <pikhq> Yeah, but my head has weird wiring.
06:38:47 <Bike> trans... cend... what's the etymology there
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06:39:27 <Bike> it's from "scandere", to climb in the french of yore
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06:39:47 <monqy> good etymology, thanks french
06:40:37 <elliott> just pretend i said something insensitive about french people here
06:40:53 <monqy> um elliott thats racist
06:41:01 <monqy> you should take that thing you said right there back
06:41:07 <oerjan> <monqy> how did you guess <-- i'm not _that_ ill looking yet. hth.
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06:41:21 <pikhq> monqy: That's cultural imperialism right there.
06:41:27 <Bike> madbr: looks to be the same, yep
06:41:30 <madbr> yeah what's this thing about ppl dissing the french
06:41:39 <pikhq> Don't you know, insensitivity to the French is a major, fundamental part of British culture?
06:41:55 <madbr> it's some dumb bush thing that people are taking seriously... wat
06:42:00 <Bike> elliott is just hateful, he's spent so much time yelling ineffectually at scotsmen that he has to take a break to yell ineffectively about (not even at!) french people
06:42:08 <Bike> oh this isn't an americanism
06:42:14 <elliott> Bike: you forgot: sometimes i yell at Bike.
06:42:26 <Bike> Ok, yes, he also hates luxembourg.
06:42:43 <monqy> sometimes i yell but in a calm and subdued manner. i can't think of a metaphor so just imagine that ok
06:42:48 <elliott> oerjan: have you noticed there is a slight halo surrounding you in that photo of you (the fake one on your website)
06:44:00 <elliott> not saying you're jesus but i'm saying there's at least a 70% chance
06:44:31 <Bike> isn't he like welsh? i thought jesus was japanese
06:46:10 <Bike> nice country in the summer
06:46:16 <elliott> when did you wake up oerjan
06:46:39 <oerjan> an hour and a half ago
06:47:10 <oerjan> i guess i'm in that brief period of my sleeping cycle which strange people consider "normal"
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06:48:41 <oerjan> (strange people who control the world)
06:49:12 <Bike> also control: the sun
06:49:34 <oerjan> <Sgeo> There is a Pope. <-- what, already?
06:50:03 <pikhq> Kinda short interregnum there.
06:50:18 <elliott> oerjan: they managed to find an old white catholic guy quickly enough
06:50:21 <elliott> how did they do it????????????
06:50:41 <Bike> the papal conclave is too secretive for us to know
06:51:08 <oerjan> elliott: maybe they collected all the sufficiently old white catholig guys in one place, locked them inside and forced them to choose one among themselves. but that's of course ridiculous.
06:51:15 <pikhq> Though they failed to find an old European Catholic guy.
06:51:36 <fizzie> Old white catatonic guy.
06:51:54 <pikhq> He's from Argentina.
06:52:04 <elliott> well argentinia is basically european imo
06:52:06 <oerjan> does he know how to tango?
06:52:07 <Bike> children of italians but close enough
06:52:14 <elliott> pretty european name for a country
06:52:17 <pikhq> elliott: South America.
06:52:27 <oerjan> Bike: i guess they need to take it one step at a time
06:52:38 <elliott> pikhq: yes. basically europe
06:52:41 <oerjan> no big leaps like the US choosing an islamic terrorist
06:52:56 <Bike> maybe they just need to find a sufficiently conservative ghanaian
06:53:04 <shachaf> Señorita Nina, from Argentina, knew all the answers / Although her relatives and friends were perfect dancers / She swore she'd never dance a step until she died
06:53:06 <elliott> how about someone from guam
06:53:20 <Bike> sounds good to me
06:53:23 <pikhq> And unsurprisingly, he's very anti-homosexuality.
06:53:34 <Bike> wide reforms in the areas of architecture design and JRPG outfits
06:53:44 <pikhq> Of course, the first Pope in favor of it will probably get accused of being the Antichrist.
06:53:53 <Bike> and yeah he's conservative as hell, what else is new
06:54:02 <shachaf> pikhq: The Antipope, surely?
06:54:06 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGBHfXPqbgI
06:54:15 <pikhq> shachaf: That's not a "the".
06:54:22 <pikhq> There's been multiple antipopes in history.
06:54:40 <shachaf> There have been multiple popes, and yet people say "the pope"
06:54:49 <Bike> there are multiple ones right now, though i think the spanish guy is the one people mention most
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06:54:58 <Bike> pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_Babylon_One_World_Faith today i found out that Left Behind is right on the pulse of catholicism.
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06:56:22 <pikhq> Yeah, kinda like how when one refers to "The Queen" you mean Elizabeth II, by the grace of God Queen of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, defender of the faith...
06:56:55 <pikhq> Bike: That... what
06:57:17 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:H.H._Pope_Shenouda_III_smiling_while_giving_a_word.jpg I think other popes kind of get the short shrift, really
06:57:24 <Bike> i mean look at that hat. it's a pope hat alright
06:58:22 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pope_Theodoros_II_of_Alexandria.jpg ooh the present pope was a pharmacist
06:58:41 <pikhq> I am very confused by that Left Behind thing.
06:59:06 <Bike> What's confusing?
06:59:22 <pikhq> Nothing about it makes any sense!
06:59:35 <Bike> well, yeah, it's millenialist nuttines.
06:59:59 <Bike> It's like a Chick tract with worse art.
07:00:41 <pikhq> As though a rapture would produce a global religion of any form...
07:01:15 <pikhq> Much less such a strange universalist thing.
07:01:37 <pikhq> (who the hell does Catholic universalism?!?)
07:01:52 <Bike> people who seriously think things like "muhammad was a catholic agent"
07:02:39 <pikhq> Also, using "Pontifex Maximus" as though it's some sort of evil title. Lawl.
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07:04:01 <Bike> Pontifex does sound kind of evil if you have a twelve-year-old's knowledge of latin (hi), admittedly
07:04:20 <pikhq> Sigh, reading the Wikipedia page, and realizing I actually know the weird Christian theological terminology.
07:04:21 <monqy> pontifex is spooky and bad juju
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07:04:45 <pikhq> ("amillenial", "postmillenial", "premillenial" etc)
07:05:26 <Bike> i only know the ancient stuff ("marcionist") with a smattering of weirdness like dominionism
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07:07:15 * oerjan declares the logs too damn long today
07:26:01 <FreeFull> So I'm reading a thread about someone who doesn't understand Applicative
07:26:15 <FreeFull> And I'm confused how you wouldn't understand Applicative
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08:01:24 <oerjan> hm... when i become world dictator i think i will make it illegal to have a "like" button if you don't have a "dislike" one.
08:02:22 <elliott> mashing Bike's dislike button as we speak
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08:03:53 <oerjan> of course there will be a swat button, which only i may press.
08:04:03 <elliott> you would be a good dictator
08:04:18 <oerjan> but there's no use in putting it on a website, since the website won't exist afterwards anyway.
08:07:42 <oerjan> this resembles my predicament in some way. i think you may understand it even without the veterinary's text bubble. http://www.dagbladet.no/tegneserie/pondus/?1363215600&d=-1
08:08:25 <olsner> someone stole your squeeze toy?
08:08:50 <oerjan> i don't recall ever having one, but i guess it _is_ possible.
08:09:47 <elliott> oerjan: do people in norway think comics like this make any sense
08:10:08 <olsner> it's not impossible that the comic is swedish but translated
08:10:29 <olsner> ah, no, it's the other way around
08:11:09 <oerjan> pondus is rather surrealistic at times. it's like a bit of bill amends' foxtrot and a bit of bud grace's ernie/piranha club
08:11:24 <oerjan> (that's the comparison i thought of once.)
08:11:51 <oerjan> and it has pretty clearly passed its prime, but still sometimes amusing.
08:12:15 <oerjan> (it used to be norway's most popular comic)
08:12:45 <elliott> so all things decay in norway too
08:12:45 <oerjan> actually i guess it's got back to _more_ surrealism lately.
08:13:51 <oerjan> recently i read norwegian's are gaining weight faster than any other europeans.
08:14:53 <oerjan> elliott: anyway the comic makes sense to me as a symbol of the futility of fighting the universe's annoyingness. hth.
08:15:47 <oerjan> olsner: the main comic to go the other way is "rocky"
08:16:12 <oerjan> at this time dagbladet has _two_ kellerman comics.
08:16:38 <olsner> kellerman is the one who does rocky?
08:18:29 <olsner> didn't know he made anything except rocky
08:18:58 <oerjan> well the other one is sort of drawn twitters.
08:19:24 <oerjan> http://www.dagbladet.no/tegneserie/kellermannen/
08:19:56 <oerjan> as in, i vaguely recall that's how it supposedly started.
08:21:00 <oerjan> "Ny tegneserie for twittergenerasjonen fra skaperen av Rocky."
08:21:08 <oerjan> maybe that's just where i got it from.
08:24:45 <oerjan> "A binary brown dwarf system, WISE 1049-5319, is observed 6.5 light-years from Earth, making it the closest star system discovered since 1916."
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08:25:15 <oerjan> nice that they can still find new stars that close...
08:25:27 <oerjan> or maybe embarassing. who knows.
08:25:56 * oerjan throws some pi at elliott
08:26:12 <oerjan> that's what people do today, right?
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08:26:47 <elliott> is it bad american calendar day
08:27:43 <oerjan> well what can we do, april only has 30 days
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08:29:08 <fizzie> oerjan: 6.5 light-years, that's like a stone's throw away.
08:29:36 <oerjan> a fairly small stone, thrown very fast.
08:36:44 <oerjan> "In 1868, Sirius became the first star to have its velocity measured. Sir William Huggins examined the spectrum of this star and observed a noticeable red shift. He concluded that Sirius was receding from the Solar System at about 40 km/s.[36][37] Compared to the modern value of −7.6 km/s,[2] this both was an overestimate and had the wrong sign; the minus means it is approaching the Sun. However, it is notable for introducing the study of celestial
08:36:46 <fizzie> 42.1 km/s to escape Sun's gravity, starting from Earth, says Wikipedia's list of escape velocities.
08:36:59 <fizzie> "-- study of celestial".
08:38:27 <oerjan> celestial radial velocities."
08:38:49 <fizzie> I think it worked better without that.
08:38:58 <fizzie> The study of celestial, it sounds more important.
08:40:23 <oerjan> i didn't notice your comment that my line had been cut off, as i was busy looking up my line in the tunes logs to see if it had been cut off, but unfortunately the tunes logs had been cut off just before my line so i had to switch back to codu.
08:41:03 <oerjan> (i had switched to tunes a while ago when glogbot had connection problems.)
08:41:03 <olsner> you could've asked us :)
08:41:33 <oerjan> well the thing is i wasn't sure if it had been cut off at all, in which case asking you would be just making noise, right? hth.
08:41:55 <oerjan> besides i have a strange hangup about asking people in general.
08:42:57 <elliott> was there something wrong with the codu logs
08:43:59 <oerjan> elliott: not at this moment, no. but once i switch i tend not to switch back since i just look up the address in my address line history.
08:45:06 <oerjan> i mean, i offer my housemate lozenges and i _completely_ fail to get through the part of my request that is "please take them before your coughing makes me kill you."
08:46:08 <elliott> that seems more like a murder hangup
08:46:49 <oerjan> the thing is, murdering them might end up getting me even _worse_ living accomodations, unlikely as it seems.
08:46:51 <olsner> "eat these or I will kill you" could be misinterpreted
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08:47:26 <elliott> i hear norwegian prisons are pretty nice
08:48:02 <oerjan> yes, yes they are. so i'm not _entirely_ sure it would be worse. but it would certainly ruin my daily restaurant visit.
08:48:04 <ion> You could get out of the country before anyone finds the body.
08:48:33 <oerjan> ion: i seem to have "getting out of the country" hangup too.
08:48:49 <elliott> oerjan: go to guam and become pope
08:49:05 <olsner> oerjan: I think they'll generally provide food for you, so the daily restaurant visit wouldn't be useful anyway
08:50:22 <oerjan> olsner: true, but the visit is an important part of how i keep the last sliver of sanity.
08:51:41 <oerjan> (it's a small sliver.)
08:55:23 <olsner> frame the relevant part of the restaurant staff so they end up in jail with you
08:56:09 <oerjan> they're mostly foreigners, in the current political climate they might end up deported instead.
09:06:14 <elliott> Fiora: hi, we're talking about the history of applied mathematics in russia circa 1823-1827
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09:17:19 <Fiora> phew. long anime marathon
09:18:19 <elliott> are you still alive or did you die of an anime overdose
09:21:26 <Fiora> I survived the gundams
09:23:10 <Fiora> the flood of plotting, intrigue, arbitrary plot-induced powerups, and sexy gundam pilots
09:26:37 <elliott> if we work hard we can conquer all the animes by 2015
09:27:44 <Fiora> but they keep making more animes!
09:27:46 <Fiora> whatever will we do?
09:28:01 <monqy> kill them so they stop
09:28:58 <elliott> monqy that's going too far...... we just have to jail the animes for life
09:29:05 <elliott> it's the only way to control the epidemic
09:29:26 <monqy> are you sure we have enough jail
09:29:50 <Fiora> (I am actually super bad at watching anime, I get stalled so often and have soooo many good series I should see but haven't)
09:30:05 <elliott> you have built up a resistance to it
09:30:09 <elliott> not everyone is so fortunate!
09:35:05 <Fiora> why would one want to be resistant to good things
09:36:51 <elliott> sometimes we have wars that make no sense. it's a metaphor for real life
09:37:48 <Fiora> that sounds like a description of gundam
09:38:21 <elliott> see. everything reflects everything else.
09:45:20 <elliott> you just don't appreciate anime theory
09:50:24 <Fiora> elliott is majoring in anime theory
09:50:28 <Fiora> a bachelor's of anime
09:50:53 <elliott> this knowledge certainly makes one a bachelor
09:53:27 <Fiora> with a minor in bishonen studies
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11:10:56 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
11:16:30 <fizzie> There are so many lists these days.
11:18:40 <elliott> we should delete them all.
12:09:51 <HackEgo> bin/elist \ bin/emptylist \ bin/list \ bin/makelist \ bin/mlist \ bin/olist \ bin/pbflist \ bin/slist \ bin/smlist \ bin/testlist
12:29:05 <elliott> wow how is there so much shit
12:29:59 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0"): "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit
12:30:20 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well based on all the tests lying around i have one principal suspect
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12:45:34 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot metasepia monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
12:46:17 <monqy> there's still ^list though
12:46:45 <elliott> unfortunately fungot lacks the introspection capabilities that drive the advanced `list technology.
12:46:45 <fungot> elliott: defined in 108?
12:46:50 <fungot> elliott: a bit down about the usage of common scheme. don't know if we can represent multiple, otherwise non-printable fnord
12:55:23 * Sgeo wtfs at the scrollbar http://tech.pro/tutorial/1152/demystifying-linq
12:56:55 <ion> I don’t see anything wrong with the scrollbar.
12:57:55 <monqy> sometimes sites pull stuff like that
12:59:32 <Lumpio-> There was something mystic about linq?
13:00:31 <monqy> think of a thing. i'm sure there's "something" "mystic" "about" "it"
13:00:49 <Sgeo> The way it can pull apart lambdas is weird. Which the article doesn't touch on
13:02:26 <Lumpio-> I also doesn't mention IQueryable even thought it mentions databases at the start.
13:03:05 <Lumpio-> ...do you know how it analyzes lambdas though?
13:03:55 <Sgeo> No, but someone in the Reddit thread linked to a series of posts about it
13:03:58 <Sgeo> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/mattwar/archive/2008/11/18/linq-links.aspx
13:04:38 <Lumpio-> Well the trick is that a lambda expression can either be compiled as a method or an expression tree
13:05:01 <Lumpio-> It's just a compiler trick. There are no "lambdas" at runtime
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16:02:38 <Taneb> My maths class had a Pi day celebration today
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16:08:30 <Taneb> Also, I need to find an alternative to Google Reader
16:12:15 <Phantom_Hoover> just hang in there until the new specialiser-based list architecture is complete
16:17:08 <Taneb> But how will I keep track of these 16 webcomics
16:18:45 <shachaf> Taneb: Make 16 lists, have Sgeo keep track for you.
16:20:59 <Taneb> (for Homestuck he has a bot in another channel)
16:21:08 <Sgeo> And an app on my phone
16:21:13 <Taneb> (I think it's generally faster than reader)
16:21:47 <Sgeo> For OOTS I do have reader, but more often then not I notice for other reasons, like my Facebook page has the update
16:22:22 <Sgeo> I've noticed new OOTS often because someone liked my post about new OOTS
16:23:29 <elliott> sgeo have you considered working at a webcomics update company
16:24:00 <Bike> Telling You Things Are Happening LLC
16:24:23 <Phantom_Hoover> "team player, will notify fellow coworkers of webcomic updates"
16:24:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: popelist: not found
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16:29:47 <Sgeo> I may have liked that particular tweet, even if I don't like his approach to arguing? Let me look for the tweet in question
16:29:54 <Bike> he has a twitter?
16:30:01 <Bike> sgeo i mean, of course morgan does
16:30:10 <Sgeo> https://twitter.com/sgeocomet
16:31:24 <Bike> "No offense, but it is annoying how the Trickster text isn't copy/pasteable and isn't searchable." important issues
16:31:37 <Taneb> Is Sgeo's name actually Sgeo
16:32:10 <Taneb> S. George Johanssen
16:32:23 <Sgeo> "Sam Geometry" does bear some similarity to my name
16:32:40 <boily> Sébastien Gabriel Ernest Olivier?
16:33:54 <Sgeo> I think I used Tlhds as my currency name when I played NationStates when I was young
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16:35:31 <fizzie> Wired. Wierd. Weird, I mean. I open up Chromium's "Extensions" page, and drag-and-drop a UserScript .js into it; before I drop, it pops up the usual "drop to install" infobox, but when I actually drop, it just navigates to that file as it would if I drag-and-dropped any file into any regular tab.
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16:37:05 <fizzie> It did not do that at wurk.
16:37:14 <fizzie> Though that was real Chrome, not the diet-Chromium.
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16:54:30 <Taneb> Alright, I now have Thunderbird set up
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17:25:14 <Taneb> News in Hexham: "Extra day scrapped"
17:25:30 <Taneb> "Miner's race goes downhill this year!"
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17:26:12 <oerjan> down _through_ the hill, one would assume.
17:26:48 <Taneb> One would assume that, yes
17:26:56 <oerjan> any person to hit lava automatically wins.
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17:42:39 <Taneb> I wonder how quickly I could put together a Scandinavia and the World's Finland cosplay
17:43:05 <Lumpio-> Buy a knife and a vodka bottle
17:43:28 <Taneb> I'll also need a hat
17:43:46 <boily> the hat is important, as is the facial hair.
17:45:38 <Taneb> I already have the facial hair
17:45:49 <Taneb> The hat isn't too hard to get hold of
17:48:51 <boily> what was the word that Finland said again?
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18:00:44 <fizzie> SATW updates rather rarely.
18:03:16 <Taneb> It's like the third least updatey webcomic I read
18:03:42 <fizzie> ELER updates quite rarely too.
18:03:53 <Fiora> I think dresden codak might update even slower?
18:04:28 <Taneb> The second and first are Awkward Fumbles and Goost 26
18:04:45 <Taneb> Goost 26 is a sci-fi comic written by some guy my dad used to know
18:05:40 <Bike> one of the webcomics i has like two years between updates, it's great, it always goes dead between
18:05:41 <fizzie> There are like 9 new Dresden Codak storyline strips since I last looked.
18:06:09 <Taneb> But yeah, I'm going to an anime con soon where I know there will be a lot of Axis Powers: Hetalia fans
18:06:28 * Bike goes to look. last update: august 2010
18:06:43 <Fiora> just don't mention you like a ship that they don't!
18:07:18 <Bike> hungary/abkhazia 4 lyfe
18:07:33 <Taneb> So I'm gonna cosplay SATW and confuse everyone
18:07:45 <Fiora> and now I'm thinking about all of the countries in gundam 00 for some reason
18:07:52 <Fiora> and their future-history of the middle east and ethnic conflicts
18:08:42 <Bike> did it predict syria
18:09:38 <Fiora> it's much farther future, like, one thing that happens is the kurds finally secede and create their own country, which naturally gets involved in another mess of an ethnic conflict resulting in its absorption into a neighboring country again
18:09:48 <Fiora> (and the protagonist is kurdish)
18:10:09 <Bike> kurdish independence? it really is science fiction
18:10:17 <Fiora> it also does the whole "gosh what happens when the middle east runs out of oil" thing
18:10:43 <Fiora> much of the show's plot sort of revolves around the massive economic problems caused by a switch to global solar energy, and the obsoleting of oil
18:11:46 <Taneb> Wouldn't the middle east still be pretty good for solar energy?
18:14:06 <Fiora> the basic premise is that there was a huge project to build an orbital solar collector (as a ring) connected to the earth by 3 big space elevators
18:15:21 <Bike> Taneb: http://www.theonion.com/2056-06-22/news/6/
18:15:53 <Fiora> this would surely solve conflicts over energy and resources, right? well except of course the power blocs that own the 3 big space elevators have a lot of coercive power since they can say "do X or you don't get power"
18:17:03 <Fiora> and then there's a lot of political conflict in countries that aren't part of the major blocks, with fundamentalists and nationalists who don't want to accede to the demands of the major power blocks, and resent their imperialism
18:20:23 <Fiora> Bike: actually, like, seriousthought. I can't think of any other tv show, like, ever, with a seriously portrayed/not-stereotypical middle-eastern protagonist o_O
18:20:51 <Bike> i can think of another anime, though he's half-japanese because it's anime.
18:21:40 <Bike> maybe Community? I haven't seen it. Also he's probably American.
18:21:56 <kmc> Community is an anime now?
18:22:08 <kmc> i would watch that
18:22:13 <kmc> actually they already did a short anime segment
18:22:47 <Fiora> but yeah like I am fangirling over this show now that I've finished it and it was kinda wonderful and stuff
18:23:09 <Bike> do TV adaptations of the Bible maybe count
18:23:30 <Bike> if they're not whitewashed, anyhow
18:23:32 <Fiora> I wonder how many of those don't have white people playing moses
18:23:43 <Fiora> but yeah, I don't think that counts for a modern portrayal <.<
18:24:09 <Bike> other than that all that comes to mind is media by them
18:24:17 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Mosque_on_the_Prairie
18:24:20 <Bike> like uh... what was that popular cartoon that woman did. something opolis
18:25:04 <kmc> "While the show does derive some of its humour from exploring the interactions of the Muslims with the non-Muslim townspeople of Mercy... at its core the show is essentially a traditional sitcom whose most unique trait is the simple fact of being set among an underrepresented and misunderstood cultural community"
18:25:19 <Bike> yeah, i've heard good things about it
18:25:25 <kmc> i haven't seen it
18:25:27 <kmc> it's on Hulu
18:25:38 <Bike> oh! persepolis, that was it
18:26:18 <Fiora> ooh, that looks rather cool
18:26:50 <Bike> there's a saudi arabian guy on SA who did some comics about his life, they're weird to read (because, well, it's not that different)
18:27:43 <Bike> apparently members of the family are usually entitled jerks
18:33:03 <Bike> http://al-saqr.deviantart.com/art/Cartoon-Racism-265518461 ah there we go. this is great
18:36:10 <kmc> the onion has good over the top right wing political cartoons
18:36:18 <kmc> and yes they always include the statue of liberty crying in a corner
18:36:52 <Bike> You've Got Fail
18:37:55 <Bike> have you seen Kelly's youtube videos
18:38:16 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVtbkQMwJS4 you should
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18:46:52 <Taneb> Where can I get or make a t-shirt bearing the flag of Finland
18:47:14 <shachaf> @google finland flag t-shirt
18:47:16 <lambdabot> http://www.zazzle.com/finland_flag_t_shirt-235009520674383859
18:47:17 <lambdabot> Title: Finland Flag T-shirt from Zazzle.com
18:47:42 <shachaf> Wouldn't the flag of Hexham be more appropriate for you?
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18:50:20 <Taneb> Alas, Hexham does not have a flag
18:50:29 <Taneb> Also, that's not quite what I want
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18:54:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Carbohydrates (200g): Any molecule consisting only of Carbon, Hydrogen, and Oxygen. Flour, corn, bread, rice, pasta, your cells don't care.
18:55:12 <Phantom_Hoover> wow, i never realised phenol was a great way to get some carbs
18:56:06 <Phantom_Hoover> "Raw Potassium is extremely reactive, so I use potassium gluconate, C6H11KO7."
18:56:26 <Bike> huh apparently that's actually how "carbohydrate" is defined
18:56:55 <Bike> not nutritionally, obviously
18:57:01 <ais523> I thought it also required a 2:1 ratio of hydrogen to oxygen
18:57:01 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:57:05 <lambdabot> elliott said 1d 2h 11m 42s ago: any idea about http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=DNA-Sharp&curid=2720&diff=35666&oldid=31940? site owner, maybe?
18:57:17 <Bike> apparently not
18:57:19 <ais523> all edible carbohydrates I know of have that ratio
18:57:32 <Bike> "Some exceptions exist; for example, deoxyribose, a component of DNA, has the empirical formula C_5H_10O_4"
18:57:53 <ais523> that's where the "deoxy" in the name comes from
18:57:57 <ais523> it has one less oxygen than it should
18:58:11 <Bike> what a loser of a carb
18:59:17 <Phantom_Hoover> (wow, there aren't many common polymers with oxygen in them)
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19:00:00 <Bike> also: i like the idea of monopotassium being something you'd ever even consider eating
19:00:10 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
19:00:12 <Phantom_Hoover> " For others such as K, P, Ca, Mg, check your local lab supply store or university."
19:00:14 <boily> nylon has some oxygens here and there.
19:00:32 <boily> I am not an idiot!
19:00:43 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
19:00:47 <Bike> check your local lab supply store for your necessary calcium
19:00:57 <Bike> i mean man, even if this wasn't cracked, think of the logistical issues.
19:05:53 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean beyond not understanding the term 'fit for human consumption'
19:06:05 <Bike> i mean, consider if this guy got a following
19:06:27 <Bike> i don't think lab supply places have sufficient output of calcium to support more than a few people (if they could support people)
19:07:40 -!- azaq23 has joined.
19:07:54 <Bike> though i don't know his ideology, why would you ever come up with this shit
19:08:10 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean i guess there are people who just don't enjoy food
19:08:14 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: you will survive on cellulose
19:08:22 <Fiora> what wonderful carbohydrates that are full of nutrition
19:08:52 <Bike> eating grass would be more survivable than phenol, that's for sure
19:08:53 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:09:38 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Phenol_2_grams.jpg mm-mm, good
19:10:13 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lignin_structure.svg Wow, what a compound.
19:10:30 <Fiora> it's an acid, it burns through your skin
19:10:47 <Fiora> I'm not sure you'd survive to test the cancerousness of it
19:11:11 <Bike> hm this means i am presently surrounded by towers of lignin. awesome
19:11:35 <Phantom_Hoover> however: "Repeated or prolonged skin contact with phenol may cause dermatitis, or even second and third-degree burns.[35] Inhalation of phenol vapor may cause lung edema.[34] The substance may cause harmful effects on the central nervous system and heart, resulting in dysrhythmia, seizures, and coma.[36]"
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19:11:56 <Sgeo> Wait, so the guy making the drink thing that replaces food doesn't know what he's talking about?
19:12:32 <Fiora> it could also be that the articles are dumbing it down?
19:12:40 <nooodl> lignin structure looks like a maze
19:12:59 <Bike> Fiora: i think suggesting going to lab supply stores for your meals is beyond dumbing it down
19:12:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, well I can't see anything glaringly wrong with the actual ingredients, though I'm no expert.
19:13:19 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, oh, I thought the channel was pointing out glaringly wrong things or something
19:13:22 <Phantom_Hoover> But putting any lab-grade chemicals in your mouth is very stupid indee.
19:14:13 <Fiora> that's kind of crazy
19:14:32 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, hmm, why?
19:14:35 <Fiora> I think you can get a lot of powdered food-grade vitamins and minerals and stuff online easily enough?
19:14:49 <Sgeo> Are the materials likely to be impure?
19:14:49 <Fiora> I heard it's a lot cheaper than actually buying capsules if you really really feel like measuring it all out
19:14:53 <Bike> Sgeo: your body is not used to handling pure potassium.
19:14:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, because lab-grade chemicals are filtered to remove stuff that will fuck up the reactions.
19:15:15 <Fiora> yeah, the form of the mineral is super important
19:15:19 <Phantom_Hoover> This is not the same as filtering them to remove stuff that will kill or harm you.
19:15:33 <Fiora> oh, so he's not asking you to get raw potassium
19:15:41 <Phantom_Hoover> He seemed chuffed that he'd avoided such an obvious beginner's mistake.
19:15:46 <Bike> fiora: "Carbohydrates (200g): Any molecule consisting only of Carbon, Hydrogen, and Oxygen. Flour, corn, bread, rice, pasta, your cells don't care." this could be dumbing it down but if so it is very dangerous dumbing
19:16:11 <Fiora> and even among edible carbodydrates, that is just, agh, so wrong
19:16:17 <Fiora> fructose and glucose use completely different metabolic pathways
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19:17:20 <Sgeo> Hmm, what could kill you that wouldn't fuck up lab reactions?
19:17:37 <Bike> it would literally explode in your mouth
19:17:44 <Sgeo> Well, besides the actual substance in question
19:17:45 <Fiora> maybe isomers of something that you'renot supposed to eat isomers of?
19:17:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, really pure lab ethanol contains significant quantities of benzene, iirc.
19:18:18 <Fiora> or like, a chemical that is 99% of The Molecule You Want and 1% of a Similar Thing With Slightly Changed Structure That Causes Cancer
19:18:31 <Bike> i mean you know chem labs usually have "do not eat or drink anything in this room" rules for a reason
19:18:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Because it removes water more effectively than distillation.
19:18:49 <Fiora> I'm guessing in some cases the chemical synthesis pathways might be different, like there's an easy way to make some chemical X, but produces small amounts of dangerous thing Y, so food synthesis has to use a different, more expensive pathway?
19:19:24 <Fiora> but I'm totally guessing
19:19:30 <Fiora> I don't actually know anything about organic chemistry
19:20:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I think like with the ethanol example you can also have something which doesn't matter for food but will mess with experiments.
19:20:27 <Fiora> oh right, there was a great example! trans fats
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19:20:44 <Fiora> they're just a mirrored isomer of something fine, butthey turned out to be toxic
19:22:14 <Bike> they are called "trans" because they're mirrored, cool
19:22:23 * Sgeo still likes the core idea of not having to eat food
19:22:24 <Bike> that seems really obvious in retrospect
19:23:04 <Bike> 's what wikipedia says
19:23:05 <Phantom_Hoover> trans refers to the way the carbons are arranged around a double bond
19:23:26 <Bike> mreeeeeeh cistrans, mirrored, same diff
19:23:58 <Phantom_Hoover> compare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Trans-2-butene.svg and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cis-2-butene.svg
19:24:01 <Fiora> freakin' transphobia
19:25:17 <Fiora> thalidomides have a non-toxic isomer?
19:25:51 <Bike> Sgeo: the fundamental problem here is probably that your body is "designed" to deal with regular food, and any protein pellet like thing is basically going to have to hack around that
19:26:36 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/qntm
19:27:59 <Sgeo> Funny, I only noticed on the qntm subreddits, but it's a Reddit thing
19:29:36 <metasepia> Software description: repo for gollum based wiki - qntm (JavaScript).
19:29:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, i think this is that thing that kmc complains about where people think that just by being clever enough you can solve any problem you feel like
19:30:09 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: it seems to come up a lot in relation to the medical sciences.
19:30:33 <Taneb> I'd say that you can solve any problem you like but sometimes the solution is worse than the problem
19:30:37 <Bike> thankfully sgeo isn't peddling alkaline water or something
19:31:19 <Fiora> you should buy this water oxygenation machine!
19:31:26 <kmc> with my CS degree I am automatically an expert in law, medicine, and politics
19:31:26 <Fiora> proven to increase the size of my wallet for each one Iell!
19:31:59 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, btw i won't complain if you complain about this guy
19:32:15 <kmc> this guy = bike?
19:32:28 <Bike> yeah bike sucks
19:32:37 <Bike> but no he means uh
19:32:44 <Bike> http://robrhinehart.com/ this guy
19:32:56 <Bike> (note that while bike sucks, biking as an action is fine)
19:33:12 <Bike> Fiora: apparently Kurzweil is into it. sad
19:33:37 <Fiora> he's the one who eats like, 200 different health supplements
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19:33:50 <Bike> the shotgun approach to health
19:34:23 <Phantom_Hoover> i think it was elliott who said, "the singularity will occur the day before ray kurzweil would otherwise die"
19:34:27 <kmc> well at least this person has done /some/ relevant research
19:34:30 <kmc> and also is collecting data
19:34:41 <kmc> though mostly anecdata
19:35:49 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, well for me the most damning parts were him saying that all carbohydrates are the same, and that he thinks a lab supplier is a good source of ingredients.
19:36:32 <Bike> what we need is more molecular gastronomists
19:36:37 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: well lab suppliers give you ingredients at higher purity than a particular supermarket
19:36:40 <ais523> but that's normally higher than you need
19:36:47 <ais523> Bike: there's Heston Blumenthal
19:36:50 <ais523> not sure if there are any others, though
19:36:58 <Taneb> I think the real issue is how much I suck at installing graphics card
19:37:10 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, we talked about this earlier, lab reagents are not safe for human consumption.
19:37:33 <Phantom_Hoover> you can have impurities that are fine in a lab but toxic to humans
19:37:48 <kmc> 'An Introduction to Graphviz via R. Kelly’s “Trapped in the Closet” Hip Hopera'
19:37:52 <kmc> this might actually be the best blog
19:38:03 <Bike> if it involves trapped in the closet it is the best blog
19:38:11 <Bike> oh man, they're making a relationship graph, aren't they!
19:38:32 <Taneb> Is that the one Weird Al parodied
19:38:50 <Bike> it has to be seen to be believed
19:38:55 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-L-Cp3qZfQ
19:39:25 <Phantom_Hoover> aha, someone who does know their shit: http://robrhinehart.com/?p=424#comment-514
19:39:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, isn't that cop the biology teacher from community
19:40:03 <Bike> notable for having R Kelly trying to sound Southern
19:40:22 <Bike> and i don't know
19:42:12 <Bike> nope, the midget is properly introduced in the next episode
19:42:41 <Bike> his name is Big Man, because he has a huge penis
19:43:35 <Phantom_Hoover> then he continues to rough up the midget as though the midget was under attack
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19:44:22 <Bike> also this is pretty meta because Kelly plays the main character but /also/ the narrator there, and they are separate
19:44:32 <Bike> but this isn't clear up until he comes out of the closet!
19:46:02 <Phantom_Hoover> which, i understand, is actually not an allegory at all
19:47:13 <Bike> well it kind of is, the whole story is about people lying to each other about sexual conduct
19:47:16 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: didn't the guy also make a thing about how he used complex carbohydrates for health reasons?
19:47:17 <Bike> most of them aren't gay though
19:47:39 <Fiora> but yeah, all his descriptions seem to be confusing <.<
19:49:22 <Phantom_Hoover> also i overlooked this passage: "It's a difficult field because there are simply too many variables and the parameters are difficult to control precisely. This is why diets are fads. I decided to ditch nutrition and focus on biology."
19:49:50 <Bike> not very inclined to introspection, this guy
19:51:12 <Fiora> but but nutrition is biology
19:51:37 <Phantom_Hoover> i guess by focusing on biology he's eliminated all those variables and parameters
19:52:01 <Phantom_Hoover> also: he's apparently missing choline which is apparently important
19:52:31 <Bike> bodies are basically linear operators, donchaknow
19:53:17 <Phantom_Hoover> also he didn't realise you can't absorb both iron and calcium at once
19:53:54 <Phantom_Hoover> it's almost as if human nutrition is a complex field you can sink years into studying full-time
19:54:03 <Bike> Fiora: you still haven't announced fiorasm on fioraaeterna have you
19:54:27 <Fiora> trying to go nutrient by nutrient seems really dangerous because I don't think we actually know all of the essential nutrients?
19:54:47 <Bike> it's probably too reductionist to actually work
19:54:52 <Fiora> ummm I guess I don't figure most of my followers would be interested
19:55:04 <Bike> maybe you'll be surprised!
19:55:45 <Fiora> but fiber is just carbohydrates, they're all the same!
19:57:17 <boily> carbohydrates will never be the same!
19:58:32 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean if he was working with actual scientists something useful might come of this, but at present he's just going to end up making an idiot of himself
19:59:53 <Bike> chemical engineers doing nutrition could be cool
20:01:41 <Phantom_Hoover> biologists would be more useful; the aim would be to see if he's missing anything by monitoring his health rigorously
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20:02:03 <Bike> probably duriing the cold war at some point
20:02:17 <Bike> also one of the responses to that comment you linked was "well then how do you explain that he felt well!" so
20:03:42 <Phantom_Hoover> i can't believe nobody's pointed out to him that "i feel good" vs. "my intestine-sense tells me i lack iron" is a godawful way of measuring anything
20:04:10 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, you should point it out
20:06:00 <Bike> no! he was so young
20:06:05 * Taneb is dead due to lack of boron in his intestine
20:06:10 <Bike> so young and boronic
20:06:49 <Phantom_Hoover> also apparently his soy protein base contains a compound that binds to oestrogen receptors
20:06:50 <AnotherTest> I need to teach something very basic and practical of programming (with PHP, unfortunately) to a bunch of people that have absolutely no idea about programming (or computers really) in about 40 minutes. What could I possible teach them?
20:06:56 * boily pours borax on Taneb. may your afterlife be boron-rich. amen.
20:07:39 <Bike> AnotherTest: stereotypical example like the guessing game
20:07:54 <ais523> AnotherTest: I used to use stereogram generators as an example of that, the algorithm is really really simple, like 7 or 8 lines in most languages
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20:11:47 <AnotherTest> ais523: that would be great a really great idea, although I'm not sure if they're aware of stereograms
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20:12:23 <ais523> AnotherTest: one problem is that it needs decent support for 2D arrays, as well as some sensible way to provide an input image
20:12:27 <ais523> ASCII art is sufficient for output
20:13:51 <AnotherTest> I'm not sure if I can explain 2D arrays and image input to people who have not written a single line of code before though...
20:14:13 <fizzie> You make that program which asks your name, and your age, and then prints out "Hello, <name>, you are <age> year(s) old."
20:14:18 <fizzie> That's, like, so exciting.
20:14:30 <ais523> AnotherTest: yeah, that's why I brought it up as a problem
20:15:07 <FreeFull> AnotherTest: Show them a grid of things
20:15:27 <AnotherTest> Well, the problem seems to be that most of the typical examples are pretty boring
20:16:14 <AnotherTest> FreeFull: sure, although I'm already having trouble finding one thing
20:16:58 <fizzie> Regarding "An Introduction to Graphviz via R. Kelly’s 'Trapped in the Closet' Hip Hopera", JPG for graphviz output, really?
20:17:10 <FreeFull> AnotherTest: Why do you have to teach them?
20:17:13 <Bike> worst blog every kmc
20:18:00 <Fiora> AnotherTest: maybe try to explain it using televisions as an example?
20:18:17 <Fiora> I guess that's harder nowadays since they're not tubes and you can't describe a beam going across a screen
20:18:50 <AnotherTest> FreeFull: Well, because they want to learn something (it's not a compulsory thing), and because I would like to get them interested in programming in general
20:20:34 <fizzie> When do you have to do this? A classic approach would be to post an Ask Slashdot topic about it.
20:20:40 <FreeFull> AnotherTest: I suggest you show them cool magic
20:20:56 <FreeFull> But, are you a cool magician? :)
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20:26:24 <AnotherTest> FreeFull: I'm a really bad magician I think.
20:27:07 <FreeFull> I think one of the coolest things possible is live-coding some cool graphics/music
20:27:10 <fizzie> Then it's perhaps too soon.
20:27:21 <FreeFull> PHP gives you extra wizard points
20:27:56 <Phantom_Hoover> just use the demo_makecool() function from the standard lib
20:28:11 <fizzie> The coolest thing you can possibly do is show them how to write a constraint solver.
20:28:14 <AnotherTest> Phantom_Hoover: but they don't know what a function means in PHP!
20:30:01 <fizzie> A visual eodermdrome IDE.
20:30:43 <AnotherTest> "Let's just teach them brainfuck as a first language"
20:31:06 <AnotherTest> I'm sure they'll be delighted by this great abstraction
20:31:18 <Bike> teach them trustfuck, sgeo has a degree and trust is important in trusted enterprise applications
20:31:51 <fizzie> You just start at beginning of the wiki's language list, and see how far you can get in 40 minutes.
20:32:12 <fizzie> Except that it means you'll start with !!!Batch.
20:32:18 <fizzie> I think that was perhaps not the best advice.
20:32:26 <boily> do you have to go through brainfuck derivatives?
20:32:35 <boily> and what's wrong with !!!Batch?
20:33:08 <boily> ok. !!!Batch is not a good idea.
20:33:37 <Bike> start with the !Kung languages, clearly
20:34:17 <fizzie> There's no "Batch derivatives" category, I see.
20:34:46 <AnotherTest> There's only like one person who ever batch derivatives?
20:34:56 <fizzie> Sure, but there's more than one of them.
20:35:02 <fizzie> There's Numeric Batch, for example.
20:35:37 <fizzie> And I'm pretty sure there was more than just !!!Batch and Numeric Batch.
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20:36:13 <fizzie> Maybe I was thinking of Poison.
20:36:23 <fizzie> But it's a... Python derivative, arguably?
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20:37:18 <AnotherTest> Oh but you can do dip("python module") it seems
20:37:27 <fizzie> I seem to recall you can just use regular Python, too.
20:37:32 <AnotherTest> So you'd write your code in python, and then load it
20:37:39 <fizzie> All the foo()s are just additional functions.
20:37:45 <fizzie> (I might misremember.)
20:38:24 <AnotherTest> Well it has a sq (sqrt) function but not addition
20:39:07 <boily> is it just me, or is it not quite an esolang?
20:40:42 <boily> it's also terrifying.
20:41:37 <AnotherTest> "Numeric Batch Was Created By Shubshub To Make Programming In Batch More Challenging and to Make it seem Better as it is Theoreticly Unreadable"
20:41:50 <Bike> good esolang name
20:42:00 <AnotherTest> like, it seems better because it's not readable
20:43:41 <AnotherTest> Anyway, I'll see what I teach them. I think it might be nice if they can sort of work towards a certain program during the 40 minutes.
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21:29:12 <nooodl> > sortBy (\_ _ -> GT) "Hello, world!"
21:32:21 <fizzie> > sortBy (\_ _ -> EQ) "Hello, world!" -- is it stable?
21:32:38 <fizzie> Every letter is born equal.
21:45:22 <shachaf> kmc: what book by kurt vonnegut should i read..
21:45:35 <kmc> not an expert on that
21:46:23 <shachaf> all i read was ``cat's cradle`` and ''slaughterhouse-five'' and they were both good
21:46:54 <Bike> how about the rosenberg one
21:47:48 <Bike> Breakfast of Champions
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22:17:32 <fizzie> Was Cat's Cradle the one with ice-nine?
22:17:51 <fizzie> "Not to be confused with Ice IX", I'm sure Wikipedia says.
22:23:25 <Bike> and yes, it does say that, since ice ix is an actual form of water.
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23:33:20 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, this show is amazing
23:33:39 <Sgeo> You should still watch PMMM
23:43:58 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, how often do time related epsiodes occur?
23:44:02 <Sgeo> Because I really like this one
23:44:19 <Sgeo> "Back and Back and Back to the Future"
23:44:32 <Sgeo> (still watching)
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23:59:57 <Sgeo> This was a good episode :)
00:00:01 <Phantom_Hoover> but there are a lot of episodes that do their own take on some TV sci-fi cliche
00:00:31 <Sgeo> Who was the character in SG-1 who a similar thing happened to?
00:00:43 <Sgeo> Was it the character that this same actor played?
00:01:38 <Bike> Why's the kind of (->) have question marks in it?
00:03:45 <shachaf> Bike: In older versions of GHC it was a thing related to unboxed types and such.
00:03:58 <shachaf> You can pretend it's * -> * -> *
00:04:11 <Bike> ok, just checking.
00:05:18 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, does this mean to imply that there are episodes that aren't good?
00:05:27 <Bike> :k (-> Int) -- parse error?
00:05:29 <Sgeo> Are there bad episodes?
00:06:14 <Bike> imo do watch episode 14 and compare it negatively to PMMM
00:06:17 <shachaf> Bike: Yes, you can't section (->)
00:06:32 <shachaf> In fact you can't section any type-level things.
00:06:35 <Bike> shachaf: why not? I mean, :k ((->) Int) works.
00:06:45 <shachaf> Bike: ((->) Int) is (Int ->), first of all.
00:06:58 <Bike> I mean, (Int ->) doesn't work either.
00:07:02 <shachaf> It would be nice if the syntax (Int ->) worked. Maybe someone should add it.
00:07:24 <shachaf> That's just a little sugar thing, though.
00:07:35 <shachaf> Sections don't make as much sense on the type level because there are no type lambdas.
00:07:53 <shachaf> I.e. (-> Int) doesn't make sense, because there's nothing reasonable you can translate it to.
00:07:57 <Bike> Yes, and I suppose I can't do flip (->) Int to get (-> Int).
00:11:45 <Sgeo> I think something's gone funny with my video playback
00:12:04 <Sgeo> Sometimes sections repeat
00:12:27 <Sgeo> Or... hmm, not sure
00:13:58 <Sgeo> After this episode going to work on blog post.
00:14:57 <Sgeo> Goddammit Hulu, clicking the side != restart video
00:20:54 <Sgeo> Hulu's been acting up
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00:35:59 <madbr> I'm stumbling on something for my small VM for video games
00:36:25 <Bike> needs a jit obviously
00:36:28 <madbr> Some types of gfx effects will be kinda slow
00:36:41 <madbr> alpha blending in particular
00:37:00 <madbr> and I don't even wanna think about bilinear interpolation
00:38:42 <Fiora> bilinear interpolation is just, like, a horizontal filter then a filter filter, right?
00:38:48 <Fiora> it's only two taps so it shouldn't be that atrocious
00:39:43 <Fiora> if it's for like, whole images, you could probably use an existing library even :o
00:41:08 <madbr> bilinear interpolation murders most CPUs actually
00:41:15 <madbr> 4 reads instead of 1
00:41:41 <madbr> and then interpolation across 3 or 4 color channels (RGB or RGBA)
00:42:11 <Fiora> I don't think you have to do any more reads...
00:42:29 <Fiora> I mean, like, if you need to bilinearly interpolate a 16x16 region, you only need a 17x17 region as input, I think?
00:42:44 <madbr> what you're describing is a filter, not bilinear
00:42:46 <Bike> hey haskellites, what is fail for
00:42:57 <Bike> seems like an odd thing to have in Monad
00:43:06 <Fiora> but... a bilinear interpolator is just an H filter and a V filter unless it's not separable...
00:43:41 <madbr> fiora : if your polygon is not rotated and your scaling factor is integer then you can do it that way yes
00:43:55 <Fiora> scaling factor is integer?
00:44:06 <madbr> yeah like you're scaling 2x or 3x or 4x
00:44:17 <Fiora> I don't think that's required, I think the good algorithms can do it even when it's fractional
00:44:37 <madbr> if it's fractionnal then you get a branch in the middle of the algo I think
00:45:12 <Fiora> I think swscale has a thing where it JITs a horizontal scaler for your given scaling percentage, I have no idea how it works though
00:45:16 <madbr> not very expensive when your pipeline is super short but on more modern architectures you get the branch penalty half the time
00:45:46 <madbr> fiora: yeah exactly
00:46:20 <madbr> once you add rotation the whole thing falls apart
00:46:37 <madbr> and you have to do 4 real pixel reads and then interpolate the values
00:46:41 <Fiora> rotation is icky :<
00:47:16 <kmc> Bike: fail is for pattern match failure
00:47:25 <kmc> > do { Just x <- return Nothing; return x }
00:47:27 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (m0 b0))
00:47:27 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M91964446...
00:47:37 <kmc> > do { Just x <- return Nothing; return x } :: [Int]
00:47:57 <kmc> ok not the most illustrative example
00:48:04 <Bike> do { Just x <- return Nothing; return x } :: Maybe Int
00:48:11 <Bike> > do { Just x <- return Nothing; return x } :: Maybe Int
00:48:14 <kmc> anyway the thing to the left of <- can be a pattern; if it fails to match, 'fail' is invoked
00:48:29 <kmc> imo 'fail' shouldn't be in Monad but in some MonadFail class which is additionall required if you use refutable patterns in 'd'
00:48:46 <Sgeo> Rigel's an idiot (I'm still watching episode)
00:48:46 <kmc> with some compiler-specific description of the pattern match failure
00:48:56 <Bike> good error detection
00:49:07 <kmc> > do { Just x <- return Nothing; return x } :: State Int Int
00:49:16 <Bike> > fail "foo" :: IO Int
00:49:17 <kmc> > execState (do { Just x <- return Nothing; return x } :: State Int Int)
00:49:18 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (GHC.Types.IO GHC.Types.Int))
00:49:23 <kmc> for fuck's sake
00:49:29 <Bike> L.hs is my favorite file
00:49:34 <kmc> anyway, the point i'm /trying/ to make is that a lot of monads don't have anything sensible to do with 'fail'
00:49:41 <Bike> yeah that's why i'm asking
00:49:46 <kmc> only some monads represent error handling / alternatives / nondeterminism
00:49:55 <Bike> like fail "foo" :: [whatever] being [] is... odd
00:49:57 <kmc> and even then, you might not want to allow silent pattern match failure
00:50:08 <kmc> it IS quite convenient when e.g. doing nondeterministic programming with []
00:50:29 <Bike> oh, you can have type variables in ::, of course you can
00:50:35 <Bike> > fail "foo" :: [a]
00:50:43 <Fiora> madbr: http://privatepaste.com/824967e6a8 okay wow this is actually crazy
00:50:48 <kmc> type variables to the right of :: are implicitly universally quantified
00:51:03 <Bike> aren't type variables implicitly universally quantified in general?
00:51:13 <kmc> unless they are explicitly universally quantified ;P
00:51:16 <kmc> and that's an extension
00:51:27 <kmc> or introduced from an outer scope, which is also an extension
00:51:32 <Bike> i tried to get my pedant on and it didn't work. sad
00:51:40 <Bike> Fiora: "This scaler is made of runtime-generated MMXEXT code using specially tuned pshufw instructions." metal
00:51:52 <kmc> savagely hand-optimized assembler
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00:52:27 <Fiora> I wonder if one could do even better with pmaddubsw
00:52:32 * Bike looks up, notices x86_reg as a typename. wat
00:52:49 <Fiora> I... I'd guess it's the size of a native register?
00:52:55 <Fiora> so like, 32-bit on x86_32, 64-bit on x86_64
00:53:05 <Bike> mostly it just reminds me of how ineffectual "register" apparently is
00:53:21 <kmc> Bike: i can explain the question mark kinds if you like
00:53:31 <Fiora> I'm guessing this code doesn't work on 16-bit <.<
00:53:37 <Fiora> it uses mprotect >.>
00:53:38 <madbr> yeah this is crazy stuff
00:53:38 <Bike> kmc: oh, go ahead. (i've gotten around to reading haskell in haskell)
00:53:48 <kmc> well do you know how unboxed types work in GHC
00:53:50 <Bike> kmc: i read spj's paper about I# and such if that helps
00:54:05 <Bike> but otherwise no, i don't really
00:54:07 <madbr> fiora: hm, now I wonder how much of the instructions added after the 386 work in real mode
00:54:12 <madbr> fiora: probably not many
00:54:33 <kmc> well Int is represented, like every Haskell value, as a pointer to a heap object. but Int# is represented as a bare machine word
00:54:37 <kmc> (this much you may already know)
00:55:01 <kmc> so for example values of type Int# can't be passed to polymorphic functions, which are compiled only once for all types and expect to treat those values uniformly
00:55:11 <kmc> so Int# has to be a different kind of type than Int
00:55:31 <kmc> in old GHC that kind is named #
00:55:39 <kmc> it has some alphabetic name now
00:55:58 <kmc> so what's the kind of (->), the type constructor of function types?
00:56:13 <Bike> I suppose you want to support Int# -> Int# and such
00:56:13 <kmc> functions are all represented by heap objects, so it's ... -> *
00:56:21 <Fiora> madbr: huh, weirdly, a lot of new ones apparently can o_O
00:56:22 <kmc> but the arg and return types can be either boxed or unboxed
00:56:28 <Bike> but uh, ?? being a union of * and # seems like it would be really weird
00:56:30 <Fiora> like "popcnt" has a 16-bit real mode version and apparently works in real mode?
00:56:32 <kmc> it is really weird
00:56:35 <Fiora> and that's... that's like, SSE4
00:56:38 <kmc> it's like subtyping at kind level
00:56:39 <kmc> but there you go
00:57:05 <kmc> and ? is the superkind of * and # and (#), where (#) is the kind of unboxed tuples
00:57:07 <Bike> what do you call kinds on the next level again? is that where you give up and go with type3
00:57:11 <kmc> e.g. (# 1, 2 #)
00:57:31 <kmc> Bike: some people call them 'sorts' but in general it's nice to have uniform Set :: Set0 :: Set1 :: ...
00:57:39 <madbr> fiora : tbh alpha blending is probably a bit overdone by now
00:57:47 <kmc> esp. in dependently typed contexts, where distinguishing types from values is not really the goal
00:57:50 <madbr> after almost 20 years of openGL stuff
00:58:07 <Fiora> but but but excuse to use pmaddubsw
00:58:09 <kmc> you stratify in order to have a consistent logic, not in order to erase some things after compilation
00:58:12 <Bike> sometimes i wonder why mathematicians don't just start out with numberings, but then i remember this is the discipline that gave us x with a dot for derivatives
00:58:35 <kmc> Bike: hey you can put a lot of dots above an x
00:58:47 <Bike> i forgot the combining character for one dot though :(
00:58:48 <kmc> anyway unboxed tuples are even less first-class than unboxed values
00:59:02 <kmc> at least in old GHC you can only return them, not take them as args
00:59:03 <Bike> yeah i remember somebody who was possibly shachaf complaining about it
00:59:17 <kmc> and the only thing you can do after calling a function which returns one is to immediately pattern-match out the components
00:59:23 <Bike> also: i still think of types as a compilation thing instead of a logic thing. possibly this is because i am bad at logic
00:59:25 <kmc> case f x of (# a, b #) -> ...
00:59:35 <Bike> that amused me because it's pretty well the same as CL multiple value returns :P
00:59:39 <kmc> so it's... yeah
01:00:00 <kmc> and GHC will implement it just by putting a and b in separate STG-machine registers
01:00:04 <kmc> rather than building a heap object
01:00:17 <Bike> vectored return is what it's called?
01:00:24 <Bike> Fiora: i'm horribly curious what "LOCAL_MANGLE" could mean in the paste
01:00:25 <madbr> fiora: well, deformation/warping/texture mapping effects aren't too hard
01:00:44 <madbr> fiora: even on a straight dumb word-addressing RISC
01:01:44 <Fiora> but simd is fuuuun
01:02:10 <Fiora> Bike: I'm guessing it has something to do with pleasing the inline assembler but gosh I have no idea
01:02:36 <madbr> I'm definitely starting to consider adding simd instructions
01:03:01 <Bike> Fiora: oh, also the IDE interlude in ##asm made me want to mention slime-macroexpansion-mode but i don't know if it would be feasible or useful for assembly macros
01:03:53 <Bike> lisp mode for emacs
01:04:14 <pikhq> Hmm, I see *someone* is writing yet another image scalar that's not gamma-aware.
01:04:21 <Bike> basically if you have a macro form you can C-c m on it and a buffer pops up with the expansion, and you can do it again in the expansion, so you can see what something expands to.
01:04:22 <pikhq> Goodie, incorrect results.
01:05:00 <Fiora> pikhq: that's like, the fastest one in the library, I think
01:05:06 <Fiora> I don't think it's intended to be very good
01:05:32 <pikhq> Fiora: Eh, hardly anyone actually does that anyways.
01:05:39 <Fiora> gamma aware sounds painful though, I've read the articles about it but egh, sending every byte through a lookup table...
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01:06:25 <madbr> pikhq : bilinear is already cpu killing and you want to add more to the massacre? :D
01:07:37 <Fiora> you can use a 50-tap sinc filter too >:3
01:08:00 <madbr> even on sound that's overkill
01:08:07 <madbr> and on sound you can hear the alias
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01:09:46 <pikhq> The *cheap* way is basically doing each pixel to the power of 2.2 before scaling, and then to 1/2.2 after...
01:09:55 <Bike> kmc: mostly i was wondering about fail because haskell-in-haskell has mgu :: (Monad m) => Type -> Type -> m Subst and such, seemingly for no other reason than the use of fail. so i thought that seemed more like somewhere you'd use Either
01:09:59 <pikhq> (note, technically wrong, but damned close)
01:10:08 <Bike> kmc: but i seem to not understand the haskell "philosophy" on exceptions anyway
01:10:11 <Fiora> wait, geez, not even that's correct?
01:10:18 <Sgeo> Ok, one more episode then I will blog
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01:10:52 <pikhq> Fiora: The sRGB to linear mapping is not done via a straight gamma of 2.2, but rather a somewhat weirder function.
01:11:18 <Fiora> I guess a lookup table would be able to get it at least?
01:11:21 <madbr> srgb... is that calibrated on CRTs or LCDs?
01:11:41 <Sgeo> https://soundcloud.com/stevexr1p/i-am-the-doctor-nintendo-remix
01:13:05 <Bike> A chiptune mix of the theremin-heavy Who theme sounds surreal
01:13:47 <madbr> dunno if I like it
01:13:49 <pikhq> The exact function is... x <= 0.04045 -> x/12.92; otherwise -> ((x+0.055)/(1.055)) ^ 2.4
01:14:14 <Fiora> wow. that's... that's really... I don't even
01:14:17 <pikhq> Where x has been scaled to be between 0 and 1 from whatever your sample size is.
01:14:51 <pikhq> Note that you really want your intermediates to be either floats or 16-bit ints.
01:15:14 <madbr> hah gonna be soooo sloooooooooooooow :D
01:15:51 <pikhq> Yeah, but the average of 0 and 255 will be 187, as it should be.
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01:17:16 <madbr> it's fine on non-realtime stuff like photoshop I guess
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01:17:50 <pikhq> Yeah, but Photoshop doesn't do this.
01:18:08 <madbr> or if you do something like inverse gamma all your textures and then in the final HDR shader reapply the gamma
01:18:37 <Fiora> pikhq: actually I was kinda wondering something about that, if like, in photoshop I change the image format to 16-bit or 32-bit, does it go linear?
01:18:42 <Fiora> or does it use gamma there too?
01:19:36 <pikhq> Fiora: i don't know.
01:20:17 <Fiora> ah! http://forums.adobe.com/message/2615874 says that 32-bit float is always gamma 1.0
01:20:37 <Fiora> and apparently you can even set up a custom RGB profile with gamma 1.0 o_O
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01:21:45 <pikhq> So, if you are working in 32-bit float in Photoshop you get things working right.
01:23:15 <madbr> just getting brushes to work right is good enough to me :D
01:26:12 <madbr> the general problem with just leaving it with the RISC opcodes is that people are going to program in the effects that render well in software
01:26:31 <madbr> IE the same ones seen in a zillion demoscene demos and late DOS games
01:28:50 <madbr> they're not bad (they're good at some types of "juice" :D) but not too original either
01:35:03 <kmc> Bike: ah yeah, that was a somewhat old style
01:35:13 <kmc> (using a generic monad for 'fail')
01:35:23 <kmc> I think these days people will look at you funny for writing that kind of code
01:35:36 <kmc> you would use Maybe, Either, or some class more specific than Monad
01:37:36 <kmc> yeah the sRGB function is chosen "to approximate a gamma of about 2.2, but with a linear portion near zero to avoid having an infinite slope at K = 0, which can cause numerical problems."
01:39:27 <kmc> madbr: it's "calibrated for CRTs" in the sense that the CRT voltage -> luminance function is close to that gamma of 2.2, so you can output sRGB values directly as CRT voltages and it works ok
01:40:05 <kmc> but an sRGB value corresponds to a particular color (i.e. CIE XYZ tristimulus value) independent of what display technology is in use
01:41:06 <kmc> your display technology needs to do whatever is necessary to ensure that sRGB values correspond to linear light intensity according to the specified curve
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01:41:49 <kmc> there is a ThinkPad laptop that has a color calbiration sensor in the wrist rest
01:41:54 <kmc> so you just shut the lid and it does its thing
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02:08:07 <Bike> kmc: does lyah go into error handling much? like not catch, just how idiomatic code deals with exceptional situations
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02:20:46 <Sgeo> `welcome jhaimar
02:20:52 <HackEgo> jhaimar: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:31:40 <kmc> Bike: don't know
02:31:51 <kmc> i think RWH has some stuff on the IO-monad sort of exceptions
02:32:44 <Bike> lyah mentioned IOError but said you'd usually use pure mechanisms instead
02:33:34 <lambdabot> Control.OldException try :: IO a -> IO (Either Exception a)
02:33:35 <lambdabot> System.IO.Error try :: IO a -> IO (Either IOError a)
02:33:35 <lambdabot> Control.Exception.Base try :: Exception e => IO a -> IO (Either e a)
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02:42:55 <kmc> well IOError is pretty primitive
02:43:02 <kmc> but GHC has a more powerful system of IO exceptions
02:43:04 <kmc> extensible
02:43:30 <kmc> i may be some kind of heretic, but I think the IO monad is a pretty good 'getting shit done' monad
02:43:36 <kmc> it has exceptions, state, threads, oh and IO
02:43:59 <kmc> for some huge program it might be nice to build an ornate transformer stack of separate exception handling, state, etc.
02:44:11 <kmc> but it's a big pain for small program
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02:56:22 <Sgeo> Well, separate state is still nice for not having to pass IORefs around, unless you make a global IORef
02:57:22 <kmc> that's true
02:59:39 <Bike> basically what i'm asking is, for something like the haskell-in-haskell code that doesn't involve anything IOy but exceptions, would using that exception hierarchy be the idiomatic solution, or what?
03:00:20 <kmc> no, probably Maybe or (Either t) or some other error monad
03:00:32 <kmc> compilers typically have to do errors, fresh variable names, and maybe other state
03:01:08 <kmc> what i'll do is, create a module which defines a monad with the necessary operations
03:01:19 <Bike> i'm used to exceptions being more complicated than just bare strings, too :/
03:01:19 <kmc> exported abstractly, so other code can't see the details of how that monad is implemented
03:01:31 <kmc> could be a transformer stack, could be something else, doesn't matter
03:01:39 <kmc> GeneralizedNewtypeDeriving for MonadState etc. is useful
03:01:52 <kmc> Bike: sure, you can use whatever type you like with Either / ErrorT
03:01:52 <Bike> no errors across module boundaries?
03:02:26 <kmc> what i'm saying is, the fact that the monad is StateT s (ErrorT e (Whatever ...)) is not exposed
03:03:21 <kmc> you would only expose whatever primitives you need
03:03:29 <kmc> throw, catch, gensym, whatever
03:03:43 <kmc> the rest of the compiler just uses those and doesn't worry about the implementation of this monad as an algebraic data structure
03:04:15 <kmc> IOW i'm saying that monad transformers are a useful shortcut for building monads, but that doesn't mean they should be all over the code which /uses/ those monasd
03:04:33 <Bike> So you'd make your own error protocol? Also I don't even know what IOW or monad transformers are so you're probably wasting this on me, sorry.
03:04:48 <kmc> IOW being "in other words"
03:05:14 <kmc> the most important idea here is abstract data types
03:05:21 <kmc> not really anything to do with monads
03:05:45 <kmc> implementing monads as abstract data types is often a good idea for the same reason as implementing anything else as an abstract data type
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03:08:45 <Sgeo> I think Bike may be wondering if you'd have to use different functions to raise errors from a 'standard' function?
03:08:58 <Sgeo> The answer to that is no if you write the monad transformer properly
03:11:27 <Bike> I seem to lack the ability to phrase what I mean to ask.
03:15:31 <kmc> right the error handling situation with 'standard' functions is a clusterfuck
03:15:55 <kmc> if you're using some error handling monad, there's no way to make (say) 'head' produce an error in that monad
03:16:28 <kmc> it is hard to integrate two libraries which both do error handling
03:16:42 <kmc> that were developed independently
03:16:42 <Bike> ok, that about answers it, thanks
03:17:15 <kmc> i mean *maybe* they allow a generic MonadError (http://lambda.haskell.org/hp-tmp/docs/2011.2.0.0/packages/mtl-2.0.1.0/doc/html/Control-Monad-Error-Class.html#t:MonadError)
03:17:18 <kmc> but usually not
03:17:31 <kmc> you end up writing a lot of little wrappers to convert between different sorts of error handling
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03:17:38 <kmc> it's not that bad but it's kind of annoying
03:17:51 <kmc> that's one reason why I say that everything that does IO should just use IO's exceptions
03:17:57 <kmc> rather than say ErrorT e IO
03:20:09 <Bike> what's T there mean, by the way
03:20:14 <kmc> transformer
03:20:47 <kmc> for an error type e :: *, and a monad m :: * -> *, (ErrorT e m) is a monad
03:20:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: slist: not found
03:20:53 <fungot> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
03:21:27 <Bike> is MonadError not a transformer?
03:21:33 <kmc> no, it's not even a type
03:21:37 <kmc> it's a type class
03:21:48 <kmc> classifying all the monads in which errors can be thrown
03:22:55 <kmc> it's useful because it lets you throw an error without knowing at what layer of the stack your ErrorT or similar thingy is
03:23:12 <kmc> and should allow library code to generalize for more users
03:23:26 <kmc> but i dunno, in practice most libraries don't use it
03:23:36 <kmc> it makes the type signatures longer and uglier and it requires type system extensions
03:23:41 <Sgeo> Dear Hulu: If I press go back 10 seconds 3 times, it does not mean jump forwards 5 minutes.
03:23:46 <Bike> wait, what extensions?
03:23:58 <kmc> there's one that uses type families and one that uses multiparameter type classes with functional dependencies
03:24:08 <kmc> oh right, that's another problem: there are (at least) two MonadErrors
03:24:11 <kmc> actually a lot more
03:24:40 <kmc> the problem is that every monad-which-supports-errors is associated with a particular error type
03:24:46 <kmc> and the type class needs a way to talk about both of these at once
03:24:54 <kmc> in standard Haskell, type classes can have only one parameter
03:24:58 <kmc> among numerous other restrictions
03:25:24 <kmc> type classes were the big new experimental feature in Haskell and they were somewhat conservative about them
03:26:39 <kmc> Haskell is a language where the community observes that there are 50 incompatible error handling monads, and the response is 50 incompatible packages for generically handling all error handling monads
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03:27:18 <Bike> the generalization of having thirty RFCs. genius.
03:27:37 <kmc> the great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from
03:32:22 <kmc> Sgeo: yeah that is the worst
03:32:25 <kmc> i don't know why it does that
03:33:50 <Bike> maybe if we just pared everything down so we only had one programmer left, they could agree on what to use. ...but then, they could be sgeo
03:38:33 <kmc> in a world with only one programmer, Hacker News will still be 40% articles about How To Hire Programmers
03:38:51 <kmc> i mean it's that much harder!
03:39:56 <Bike> i don't understand how programming exists as a job market, i mean everybody seems to care about how to hire and how to be hired that i see that more than actual programming sometimes?
03:40:47 <kmc> well nobody actually knows how to hire programmers
03:40:53 <kmc> and none of the article have any empirical basis or references
03:41:02 <kmc> they're all linkbait basically
03:41:17 <kmc> if you want to attract attention to your company, post a semi provocative article about how you hire people
03:41:17 <Bike> is the programming industry built on writing programs to autogenerate shitty articles on hiring programmers
03:41:21 <kmc> Ksplice is guilty of this too
03:41:45 <kmc> https://blogs.oracle.com/ksplice/entry/how_to_quadruple_your_productivity
03:42:04 <Bike> oh hey, haskellhaskell has n+k patterns
03:42:20 <kmc> this got a ton of hate mail from people who didn't understand that intern = paid intern
03:42:32 <kmc> also a bunch of horrible comments about all the women in those photos, of course
03:42:34 <Bike> it says "paid" in the second paragraph
03:42:42 <kmc> Bike: i think that was an edit
03:42:44 <kmc> see last graf
03:43:35 <kmc> n+k patterns are... silly
03:43:47 <kmc> i'm not sure about any stronger negative judgement
03:43:50 <Bike> has n+k but not irrefutable patterns
03:43:55 <kmc> Bike: do you know about view patterns
03:44:10 <kmc> they kind of generalize n+k patterns
03:44:23 <Sgeo> How often are view patterns used?
03:44:42 <Sgeo> > (\(id -> a) a + 1) 5
03:44:44 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:15: parse error on input `+'
03:44:49 <Sgeo> > (\(id -> a) -> a + 1) 5
03:45:24 <kmc> Bike: you can write (f -> p) and it matches x iff pattern p matches (f x)
03:45:43 <Bike> sounds undecideable
03:45:58 <kmc> you just apply f to the argument and match that
03:46:01 <Sgeo> Well, if f x doesn't terminate, I guess it is
03:46:13 <kmc> well i mean yeah
03:46:35 <Sgeo> > let loop x = loop x in (\(loop -> x) -> x + 1) 5
03:46:38 <kmc> i guess the ability to do arbitrary computation on the left side of the = is a bit remarkable
03:47:27 <kmc> but guards also do that
03:47:48 <Bike> functions for all
03:48:09 <Sgeo> It basically lessens the temptation to just expose constructors for the sake of ease of pattern matching
03:48:27 <Sgeo> This way, you can have an abstract data type, and have a function that turns it into something you can do pattern matching on
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03:48:47 <Bike> that's exactly what the page i googled up said.
03:50:37 <Bike> one of their example views uses view patterns on itself in its definition, noice
03:53:07 <Bike> so is this in lambdabot because it's standard now or because caleskell is weird
03:53:31 <Bike> also what the hell is an "outjection"
03:54:10 <kmc> Bike: i'd say neither
03:54:19 <kmc> it's in lambdabot because it's a GHC extension that they decided to turn on
03:54:34 <kmc> "caleskell" refers less to language extensions and more to strange default imports that hide the standard ones
03:54:43 <kmc> it's not like lambdabot has any crazy language extensions above and beyond the ones GHC has
03:54:46 <kmc> ...to my knowledge
03:54:47 * Sgeo wants MultiWayIf
03:55:02 <Bike> isn't that guards
03:55:23 <Sgeo> It's less noisy than a case with guards
03:56:20 <Bike> also the example they have with an actual n+k pattern being made out of a view pattern is kind of... dull
03:56:59 <Bike> "fib (np 2 -> Just n) = fib (n + 1) + fib n" instead of "fib n = fib (n - 1) + fib (n - 2)" I guess?
03:59:51 <kmc> oh i came up with this: http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2010/09/view-patterns-for-validation.html
03:59:56 <kmc> not the first time i'm sure
04:01:17 <Bike> ooh hey, you mention failure
04:01:26 <Sgeo> "monthV (rangeV "monthV" 1 12 -> m) = months !! (m-1)"
04:01:32 <Sgeo> That duplicate monthV bothers me
04:02:18 <Bike> «This "range checking pattern" would be rigid syntax in most other languages. Here it's just something that emerges from the programming paradigm.» Do you like your comments
04:09:39 <Bike> reminds me that i haven't read kuhn. is that why "paradigm" came to be used in programming that way
04:09:51 <kmc> i don't know
04:10:14 <kmc> i generally think the idea of 'paradigm' in programming is suspect
04:10:25 <kmc> maybe this article predates my conversion to this view
04:10:39 <Bike> well you didn't write the paradigm thing
04:10:57 <Bike> as i said, a comment
04:11:35 <kmc> i guess paradigms are fine, but i'm annoyed when people are like "right, we're using paradigm X therefore everything must be done according to paradigm X and the language must be chosen primarily for its uncompromising support of paradigm X"
04:11:54 <Bike> ugh, wikipedia's doing that thing where it has a history of the thing instead of a history of the concept of the thing. how am i supposed to sate my etymological fetish this way
04:12:05 <kmc> to me the different 'paradigms' are techniques that are even more powerful when used together, when appropriate
04:12:20 <Bike> have you considered using a "multi-paradigm language"
04:12:24 <Bike> alt. multi-rhetoric language
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04:12:42 <Bike> " There is still some controversy by notable programmers such as Alexander Stepanov, Richard Stallman[3] and others, concerning the efficacy of the OOP paradigm versus the procedural paradigm." why the hell did i even try looking this up?
04:14:38 <Bike> well, kuhn definitely seems to be the one who put "paradigm" into its modern usage, and 1962 is early enough to get picked up by the OOP craze for sure
04:15:07 <Bike> this is important
04:15:27 <Bike> but uh anyway that paper is neat, thanks for showing me it whenever you did that
04:15:46 <kmc> which paper? THiH?
04:16:09 <kmc> David Baltimore also gets some credit for popularizing / ruining the word 'paradigm'
04:16:39 <kmc> and former president of Caltech
04:16:55 <Bike> Typing Haskell in Haskell
04:17:35 <kmc> http://www.cripplingdepression.com/index/16 pictured here in panel 2
04:18:13 <Bike> the wild fast paced life of a caltech administrator
04:19:14 <kmc> i forgot why he was deemed to be Moneybags Baltimore but the name stuck for at least the 4 years I was there
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05:52:12 <shachaf> Bike: vectored-return is something else.
05:52:36 <Bike> well yeah it's hyphenated
05:52:40 * shachaf isn't going to read the whole thing.
05:52:49 <Bike> the whole what
05:58:21 <Sgeo> help need to force food self
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07:15:19 <Bike> i prefer unstructured, freeform programming
07:15:37 <FreeFull> Bike: What language does that? Perl?
07:16:10 <Bike> you can structure just about anything
07:16:21 <pikhq> Perl is better described as antistructured programming.
07:16:56 <Bike> perl has first class functions man, functional as shit
07:17:56 <pikhq> Perl has TC regexes; I fail to see your point.
07:18:36 <Bike> See? It's basically a Post system. Very computer sciencey.
07:18:58 <Bike> Anyway. Haskell report calls \ a "backslant". I have never heard this before, what is happening.
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11:25:39 <mtve> shorter "hello world" in malbolge in 78 bytes by kenrube: (=<`#9]~6ZY32Vw/.R,+Op(L&%I#"Fg}Cdz@xw=*z]Kw%ot4Uqpihm,Owi)tfI$c"n`}}]/zZx;W:(
11:26:11 <oerjan> !malbolge (=<`#9]~6ZY32Vw/.R,+Op(L&%I#"Fg}Cdz@xw=*z]Kw%ot4Uqpihm,Owi)tfI$c"n`}}]/zZx;W:(
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11:31:48 <mtve> mmm, i guess shinh did it in 75 bytes (! insted on .) at http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?hello+world
11:37:33 <mtve> i like kenrube's homepage btw (not really sure its his, but it was mentioned somewhere linked to him) - http://www.yyyyyyy.info/
11:40:13 <oerjan> @remember kmc Haskell is a language where the community observes that there are 50 incompatible error handling monads, and the response is 50 incompatible packages for generically handling all error handling monads
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11:48:56 <lambdabot> No quotes for this person. There are some things that I just don't know.
11:49:01 <lambdabot> kmc says: Haskell is a language where the community observes that there are 50 incompatible error handling monads, and the response is 50 incompatible packages for generically handling all error
11:49:03 <lambdabot> kmc says: Haskell is a language where the community observes that there are 50 incompatible error handling monads, and the response is 50 incompatible packages for generically handling all error
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12:36:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Suggn. remove Brainfuck and its derivatives from the 'low-level' category.
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13:26:56 <Phantom_Hoover> is it just me or is this not based on a kolmogorov machine at all
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13:29:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quit: not found
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13:32:09 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing.
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14:09:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: bf is low-level...
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14:12:05 <boily> Taneb: glad to see you revived since yesterday.
14:13:12 <elliott> I was starting to believe fizzie killed you and hid the body and was just running an IRC client to hide the truth
14:15:15 <Taneb> boily, the haircut helped
14:24:02 <Sgeo> help suddenly I have an idea of why recruiters are the devil
14:24:15 <Sgeo> I feel very pressured into making a hasty decision if I get an offer
14:24:43 <boily> recruiters aren't there to land you the best job. their goal is to land you *a* job.
14:26:17 <elliott> i already replied on the wiki
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14:39:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: replied again
14:39:39 <elliott> like I said it's hard enough for imperative languages
14:39:49 <elliott> i guess SKI is definitely low-level
14:40:02 <elliott> not sure about lambda calculus, it has a means of /abstraction/ (indeed it's all it has), which distinguishes it from e.g. BF
14:40:36 <elliott> well I guess you can abstract in SKI too, but it's basically as painful as not abstracting, so...
14:46:12 <tromp__> you can abstract at compile time in combinatory logic
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16:02:48 <Sgeo> I just don't want to be stuck in a Java career for the rest of my life.
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17:23:16 <boily> Sgeo: don't worry. even if you begin by being a not-java developer, it will find a way to infect you, to creep on you, to assimilate you.
17:25:01 <coppro> Sgeo: this is just an internship right?
17:26:02 <coppro> well then, uh, don't be?
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17:31:10 <boily> imnsho, java development only sucks when you're stuck with a large, fat, enterprisey project. but then, I believe everything that uses the ‘enterprise’ buzzword sucks.
17:31:54 <Gregor> boily: Java is only vaguely useful in large, fat, enterprisey projects.
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17:33:29 <Sgeo> coppro, I think I can survive dealing with Java for some time, but I don't want 'some time' to be 'the rest of my life'
17:34:00 <Bike> don't worry, they'll be a new stereotypical enterprise language soon enough.
17:34:06 <Sgeo> And if the only actual 'job' I can list on my resume in the future is Java...
17:34:17 <Sgeo> Even if I've done all these personal projects etc.
17:34:24 <olsner> Bike: the only problem then (for Sgeo) will be that he only knows Java
17:35:34 <boily> learn everything you can get your hand on. casually mention that you have an interest into uncommon technologies (fsvo uncommon). shotgun new projects, talk and exchange with your colleagues. get known for your initiative.
17:36:01 <coppro> Sgeo: The language is less important than the skills
17:36:11 <coppro> Emphasize the transferable skills on your resume
17:36:52 <coppro> The best tech firms know that a skilled programmer can learn $LANG on the job, and that having programmed in $LANG does not mean you are a skilled programmer
17:37:19 <coppro> I'd much rather hire (for a Python job) an intelligent guy who's never used Python than a moron who has
17:43:19 <elliott> the downside there is that you're in a python job.
17:47:08 <Bike> the right level of elitism for the job
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17:49:27 <coppro> Sgeo: tl;dr don't worry, just don't mention Java too much on your resume
17:49:36 <coppro> the point is not that you are developing in Java. The point is that you are developing
17:57:36 <elliott> i think a better worry than the idea that you might be shoehorned into a java career long-term
17:57:41 <elliott> is the fact that you will be writing in java every day.
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17:59:00 <boily> no human has enough finger length to support a whole-life java career. you'd have to have extra knuckles grafter to your fingertips to cope with the amount of typing.
17:59:06 <boily> s/grafter/grafted/
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18:01:34 <Sgeo> elliott, there may be some Javascript. Hopefully more as time goes on.
18:02:01 <coppro> I'd rather JAva than JS
18:02:29 <kmc> i disagree
18:02:38 <kmc> i'm writing a lot of JavaScript lately and finding it fairly pleasant
18:02:50 <elliott> Sgeo: yeah uh the fact that you'll get anonymous functions doesn't really make this sound like a dream job to me yet
18:03:02 <kmc> it has its warts but it's a pretty simple + flexible language
18:03:11 <elliott> also are you sure they don't just not understand the difference between Java and JavaScript :P
18:03:12 <kmc> and the community is not afraid of a little FP the way the Python community is
18:03:23 <kmc> because in JavaScript lambda is practically the only abstraction you get
18:03:26 <Sgeo> elliott, I'm sure.
18:03:28 <kmc> so they use it to build objects, modules, etc
18:03:33 <kmc> in a way that warms the heart of any Lisp weenie
18:03:42 <kmc> or maybe Scheme weenie i should say
18:03:53 <kmc> anyway it's a funny real-world demonstration of the Lambda the Ultimate principle
18:04:25 <Bike> that's a principle?
18:04:33 <elliott> Sgeo: are you sure they're sure
18:04:45 <elliott> kmc: i'd say that's a fairly inaccurate view of javascript's oop
18:04:46 <kmc> mainly i just can't get worked up about the difference between JavaScript / Python / Ruby / whatever
18:04:53 <kmc> it's all pretty minor once you know Haskell and C++
18:05:01 <kmc> elliott: yeah i'm glossing over
18:05:18 <elliott> javascript's oop can't decide whether it wants to be prototype-based or not
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18:05:33 <Bike> you have transcended the arguments and attained lingual nirvana, free of worldly desires
18:07:03 <Sgeo> They know the difference between Javascript and Java.
18:07:14 <Sgeo> Incidentally, is Angular.JS fairly well liked?
18:07:51 <Bike> "AngularJS is what HTML would have been, had it been designed for building web-apps"
18:08:02 <kmc> i think a lot of JS-bashing comes down to looking down one's nose at Web programmers as "not real programmers" and misunderstanding what the Web is
18:08:26 <kmc> which is, by far the easiest way to write an application and distribute it to a lot of people very quickly
18:08:50 <kmc> i too am guilty of this viewpoint in the past
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18:09:56 <coppro> I bash JS because it's a shitty language
18:10:03 <Sgeo> I think this contract would make actually be with the recruitment firm
18:10:04 <coppro> not because web programming isn't real programming
18:10:19 <nortti> I bash JS becaus I think it is badly designed language
18:10:22 <coppro> you can't program JS without strapping a ridiculous framework on top of it
18:10:34 <monqy> are we talking JS? heheheheheheheehehehhehehe lets not
18:11:03 <Bike> unrelated notice: please stop referring to "May you live in interesting times" as an "ancient Chinese curse". thanks in advance
18:11:03 * boily prods monqy's hehehe-box to unstick it.
18:11:14 <Bike> just talk about men making tigers instead
18:11:19 <Fiora> Bike: now I'm thinking of the inspirational japanese tumblr
18:11:50 <kmc> wow programming in JS requires the use of libraries? what a shit language!
18:12:10 <Bike> Fiora: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_you_live_in_interesting_times it's like, all the examples are English language and it was first attested by an English ambassador what a weird coincidence huh
18:12:21 <Sgeo> kmc, PHP is totally the best language ever!
18:12:33 <kmc> ancient chinese secret, eh?
18:12:38 <Sgeo> No need to import stuff much of the time
18:12:45 <kmc> Florida Man Arrested For Punching Firefighter In The Groin
18:13:03 <kmc> Sgeo: yeah it's super convenient
18:13:14 <Bike> my favorite php libary thing is probably the thermidorian date functions
18:13:23 <elliott> monqy: we were talking Sgeo's upcoming java job that's going to be lots of fun for him before
18:13:44 <Sgeo> Although I must admit it's convenient in languages like Python to not need _third-party_ libraries.
18:13:49 <Sgeo> Much of the time
18:13:50 <Bike> like just in case you want to use a dead 19th century date format
18:14:00 <monqy> elliott: does sgeo fully comprehend what he's getting himself into
18:14:14 <Bike> does anybody fully comprehend anything, when you get down to it
18:14:16 <Fiora> Bike: and it's, like, 20th century
18:14:35 <Bike> Fiora: ancient 20th century curse
18:14:53 <Fiora> still, I think inspirationaljapanese wins the mocking contest
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18:15:12 <elliott> i would love to be the guy who gets to make up some shit as an ancient chinese curse
18:15:21 <elliott> i wonder what the other ones were before they decided on "may you live in interesting timse"
18:15:22 <boily> Bike: it's said that the last guy who understood anything there was to be known was Poincaré.
18:15:33 <elliott> what regions of curseology were traversed
18:15:38 <Sgeo> Recruiters are the devil.
18:15:44 <Bike> and poincaré was kind of a dick. it all works out
18:15:56 <Sgeo> Apparently, I'm not entitled to employee benefits that the company provides.
18:15:56 <Bike> Fiora: my new tattoo means "world peace" *throws a cabbage at you*
18:16:10 <monqy> Sgeo: didn't kmc tell you to avoid them
18:16:17 <elliott> wow its almost as if kmc told sgeo to avoid recruiters 20 times
18:16:29 <boily> ok. who here first stumbled upon that inspirational japanese thing. I have this sudden urge to whack them.
18:16:37 <kmc> Sgeo: Python's stdlib is kinda shit for a lot of things though
18:16:41 <kmc> like, urllib2 doesn't check SSL certs
18:16:43 <kmc> and has a terrible API
18:16:49 <Bike> boily: nope sorry it's awesome
18:16:59 <Fiora> Sgeo: wait, this is like, a full time job, not an internship, and they're not giving you benefits? @_@
18:16:59 <kmc> you have to use requests or curl if you don't hate yourself
18:17:20 <boily> Bike: it's disturbing my qi! it unaligns my chakras! it's full of glaring and blaring and ugly colours!
18:17:20 <Fiora> boily: no smacking that tumblr is amazing
18:17:20 <Sgeo> Fiora, it's a contract job with possibility of full-time job with the company itself at the end
18:17:31 <Fiora> ... that... seems... fishy
18:17:48 <Fiora> boily: http://inspirationaljapanese.tumblr.com/post/40826225940/ this is one of my favorites
18:17:52 <elliott> boily: rip your qi chakras
18:18:10 <Fiora> actual translation: SHINJI, PILOT THE EVA
18:18:46 <Bike> #japan #japanese #quote #inspirational #motivational #kawaii #sugoi #uguu
18:19:25 <boily> Fiora: bwah ah ah ah ah! ok. that site is awesome.
18:19:44 <Fiora> I love it because like, it doesn't do that dumb thing where you put offensive phrases in japanese and mistranslate them
18:19:48 <Fiora> but rather just, /funny/ things
18:20:06 <Sgeo> Hmm, this is interesting
18:20:27 <pikhq> It's really great if you understand Japanese.
18:20:30 <Bike> "apparently my recruiter needs to know if i'm a virgin, for some party"
18:20:58 <boily> tell him that you're a gemini, and that it's against your religion.
18:21:00 <pikhq> "Shall we do the Harlem Shake today?" and "live every moment and love every day" Haaaah
18:21:16 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that I don't know if it's a good idea to talk about this stuff in publically logged channel
18:21:31 <Bike> recruiters are known to trawl the #esoteric logs for candidates
18:21:43 <olsner> Sgeo: maybe you should figure out?
18:22:21 <boily> Sgeo: say, if you ever come to Montréal one day, could you wear an orange vest with ‘Hi there, I'm Sgeo’ written in large friendly letters on it?
18:22:33 <boily> (so that I can covertly recruit you)
18:22:42 <elliott> didnt you decide it was a bad idea to talk aout this stuff in a publicly logged channel like two years ago
18:23:28 <Bike> that decision was publically logged, so he had to discard it
18:24:21 <Sgeo> According to this, since I haven't yet been employed by the recruitment firm, I can freely talk about what I know about the company
18:24:34 <Fiora> wait, they don't /let you talk about the company/? @_@
18:25:09 <Sgeo> They don't let me talk about confidential information I learn after my employment with the recruitment firm
18:25:34 <Fiora> ... what exactly classifies as confidential information...? and um. why is the recruitment firm doing the employing o_O
18:26:02 <Sgeo> I don't know yet what classifies as confidential information
18:26:04 <elliott> sgeos recruiter is recruiting him for the recruiting form
18:26:21 <Bike> what constitutes classified information is classified
18:26:51 <Fiora> this seems really weird
18:27:05 <Sgeo> Fiora, the recruitment firm wants to make money off of my employment
18:27:35 <Fiora> umm... but I thought they get paid by the company when the company hires you?
18:28:33 <Sgeo> The contract with the firm says the company isn't allowed to hire me without recruitment firm's written consent, but that after 6 months, they can be required to give said consent
18:28:58 <Bike> This sounds really dumb for a lot of reasons. Is it really dumb?
18:29:11 <Fiora> o_O I guess I don't really know enough to be sure but that sounds incredibly fishy
18:29:32 <elliott> maybe the company doesn't exist
18:29:51 <Sgeo> The company is the ISP that I use.
18:30:03 <Sgeo> I think I'm online and not hallucinating right now.
18:30:17 <olsner> sure, that's what they want you to think
18:30:42 <Bike> elliott is the new number two
18:30:55 <elliott> ah, so Optimum Online have lots of secrets they don't want us knowing about.
18:31:12 <elliott> you can't hide from us, CSC Holdings, LLC.
18:31:30 <Sgeo> I think this is just standard boilerplate stuff
18:31:38 <Sgeo> At least, standard for this recruitment firm
18:31:48 <Sgeo> Why would there NOT be a provision covering confidential information?
18:32:06 <Bike> i don't trust this boiler. i think this boiler is going to explode and kill somebody who is possibly you, and then a three hundred year old witch will arise from the ashes, cursing her colonialist murderers.
18:32:07 <Fiora> um, I think that provision is usually in your employment contract
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18:32:14 <Fiora> the thing that you sign when you actually get a real job
18:32:21 <Sgeo> Fiora, this _is_ my employment contract
18:32:32 <Sgeo> I would be employed with the recruitment firm.
18:32:33 <Bike> elliott: http://img.optimum.net/images/feedmill/custImage/121003/1349293765966-537x261.JPG they definitely seem suspicious
18:32:54 <Fiora> you want to work for a recruitment firm? but I thought it was an ISP... I'm confused...
18:32:56 <coppro> why would you be employed by the recruiting firm?
18:32:59 <elliott> btw this sounds shady as all heck lmao
18:33:05 <Bike> why would a dog have an mp3 player? he doesn't even have any pockets, where would he put it? it just doesn't add up.
18:33:06 <elliott> how has this not been ringing alarm bells for you
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18:33:18 <elliott> Bike: thats probably a telephone. makes perfect sense
18:33:26 <Sgeo> The people at the company seemed to recognize the firm
18:33:38 <Fiora> I've heard of things like this before, don't they usually do this to hire innocent victims as contractors so they can pay them half as much, and then toss them after 6 months?
18:34:07 <Bike> elliott: who uses headphones with a telephone??
18:34:15 <Bike> also who calls a cell a "telephone"
18:34:18 <Bike> are you an Optimum agent
18:34:29 <elliott> i actually call them mobiles
18:34:38 <elliott> which is a much better name than cellphone or phone or whtaever
18:34:44 <elliott> since they're not really primarily phones any more
18:34:45 <fizzie> You're talking about witch-talk-boxes?
18:35:33 <Bike> miniaturized ENIACs
18:36:50 <fizzie> The colloquial Finnish term for them derives from the word for "hand", presumably because that's what you use to hold them.
18:37:57 <fizzie> Or at least the colloquial Finnish term that I know, I'm sure them youngsters have completely different words nowadays. (I sound like an old fart.)
18:38:35 <nortti> fizzie: you mean "kännykkä"?
18:38:59 <nortti> is that derived from "käsi"?
18:39:14 <fizzie> nortti: That's what http://fi.wiktionary.org/wiki/k%C3%A4nnykk%C3%A4 claims, and it's also what I thought.
18:39:37 <fizzie> Well, from käsi or kämmen, but it's all handy anyway.
18:39:55 <nortti> heh. trademarked by nokia
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18:40:51 <fizzie> I guess Germans have "Handy"? So it's not so unique.
18:41:02 <DHeadshot> Bike: hands free 'phones need headphones...
18:41:39 <fizzie> 'phones for your 'phones.
18:41:50 <fizzie> Phonemes in your phones.
18:42:24 <elliott> always tying it to speech recognition, fizzie
18:43:06 <Sgeo> I should write down somewhere the things that are concerning me
18:43:10 <fizzie> That's just "speech" in general.
18:43:22 <Bike> hm that makes me wonder if it's harder to talk on the phone if you use a language with way different phonemes from whatever phone compression is optimized for
18:43:52 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code-excited_linear_prediction I think this is the general category of what they use?
18:44:03 <fizzie> Bike: I'm not sure how "way different" (natural) languages go, really. The equipment is, after all, pretty much the same.
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18:44:26 <Fiora> "The original algorithm as simulated in 1983 by Schroeder and Atal required 150 seconds to encode 1 second of speech when run on a Cray-1 supercomputer." XD
18:44:55 <Bike> fizzie: well there's ejective constants off the top of my head. i think the human phonemic inventory is at least twice as big as english's maybe?
18:45:58 <zzo38> How long does it take for the PC speaker to move fully? I read 60ms somewhere, and 1/60000000s elsewhere, but neither seems correct to me?
18:47:05 <Bike> let's see, english uses about 35 i guess, but this language !Xū uses 141
18:47:06 <fizzie> Bike: Sure, but it's not like it'd be all *that* closely optimized for a particular phoneme set.
18:47:26 <Bike> i guess that's what i'm wondering.
18:48:03 <boily> Bike: raw phoneme counts tend to be higher than what is logically understood between speakers of a language. you need to group allophones together.
18:48:29 <FreeFull> zzo38: Are you trying to rediscover 6-bit audio through PC speaker?
18:48:35 <fizzie> IPA has "107 letters, 52 diacritics, and four prosodic marks", and I understand it covers things pretty well; and anyway the differences are going to be quite small the more exact you get.
18:48:57 <Sgeo> I see absolutely nothing in the employment contract about the raises that I have been promised.
18:49:07 <boily> also, some sounds tend to be really close by, and the human brain infers what they should be from context. that's how ventriloquists speak, by approximating sounds and letting the ears do the rest.
18:49:18 <Bike> how ver. strange
18:50:07 <coppro> Sgeo: No, I mean why would you be employed by the recruiting company as opposed to the company you'll be working for
18:50:21 <Fiora> coppro: I did some googling and it sounds like it works like this
18:50:25 <Fiora> recruiting companies are hired to search for contractors
18:50:34 <Fiora> the contractors sign up for the job and sign contracts with the recruiting company
18:50:47 <Fiora> the recruiting company charges the main company, takes a gigantic cut of the pay, and gives some to the contractor
18:50:53 <Bike> recruiting companies sacrifice virgin BSs to the underworld, and bind demons to contracts with their client corporations
18:51:07 <zzo38> FreeFull: PC speaker is only 1-bit audio; I am trying to figure out how to accurately make an emulation of it.
18:51:16 <Bike> bachelor of science
18:52:06 <FreeFull> zzo38: Clearly you haven't seen what people have done with it
18:52:08 <fizzie> The LP model (which CELP still is based on) is arguably designed more based on the speech hardware than the speech wetware, anyway. (Though I suppose the "hardware" in this case is pretty wet too.)
18:52:23 <Bike> Like ocal cords?
18:52:26 <fizzie> FreeFull: "What people have done with it" is, I think, the reason for the "accurate emulation".
18:52:28 <FreeFull> zzo38: Either way, you could look at the way dosbox emulates it
18:53:04 <FreeFull> fizzie: The hardware is only 1-bit, but you can push out 6-bit sound with cleverness
18:53:33 <zzo38> Does DOSBox do consider all of that stuff? Also, would some filters be needed?
18:53:43 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Stream_Digital oh this was that 1-bit audio compssion method
18:54:10 <fizzie> FreeFull: Yes, and my point is that that is the reason why "accurate emulation" is necessary.
18:54:11 <pikhq> Well, it's 1,193.18 kHz 1-bit. If you're fucking clever you could actually dither that up such that the quantization noise is 20+ kHz.
18:54:27 <pikhq> And then you've got utterly reasonable audio.
18:54:48 <pikhq> I imagine what people actually *did* was somewhat simpler, just because of computational resources, though.
18:54:49 <FreeFull> zzo38: Dosbox does emulate it pretty accurately
18:55:39 <FreeFull> I actually haven't seen any more-accurate Adlib emulation than in Dosbox
18:55:42 <zzo38> I find on the real PC speaker, some high tones play a bit differently than others?
18:55:59 <zzo38> FreeFull: Is that OPL3?
18:56:51 <pikhq> But yeah, I at least *think* what you're looking at is resampling 1-bit 1.19318 MHz audio to 16-bit 44.1 kHz.
18:57:18 <FreeFull> Dosbox does emulate OPL3 too though
18:57:24 <zzo38> O, it is OPL2. Well, DOSBox also emulates OPL3; but does that work as good?
18:57:24 <pikhq> (given how the PC speaker works I'm pretty sure it's PCM like that)
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18:58:19 <pikhq> Crazy high noise floor of course, but what can you do?
18:58:43 <zzo38> I once found a OPL2 and OPL3 instrument maker program, it didn't work natively but it works on DOSBox.
19:00:01 <FreeFull> fasttracker II had a pc-speaker output
19:00:23 <fizzie> There's a well-known PC speaker soundcard driver for Windows 3.x.
19:00:44 <FreeFull> Although I think pretty much anyone would have been able to make a speech thing clone, and have fasttracker output through that instead
19:00:55 <FreeFull> Which would give significantly better quality than any pc speaker
19:02:30 <zzo38> VGM format supports OPL2 and OPL3, and even OPL4, and can even have two of each, but there is currently no support for PC speaker.
19:02:34 <fizzie> I think there's an ALSA driver too?
19:05:21 <zzo38> This OPL2 instrument maker can be used to test instrument sounds for OPL2 and OPL3 (it does support the waveforms of OPL3, but not 4-operator channels). I have already written a program to test instrument sound of OPLL. (Both programs require emulators, but a different emulator)
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19:07:20 <fizzie> Speaking of PC speakers, it seems that these days it's not uncommon to have a (crummy, but still a) speaker wired to the onboard audio chipset so that it can make real sounds without any cleverness. That's the case with both of my workstations at work.
19:09:44 <zzo38> I have a PC speaker in this computer too. However emulation should still be required since some are not implemented perfectly and you might want to run the program on a computer which is not a PC, too.
19:12:39 <zzo38> The different tone of the high notes might have to do with the time to move the speaker, or of the duty cycle (which is as close to 50% as possible, but not always exactly)?
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19:17:13 <zzo38> This is different to many sound chips that make square waves, which will use the period for half of the wave cycle instead of the full wave cycle (or, if you can adjust the duty cycle, usually whatever the smallest duty is).
19:30:53 <Sgeo> On the plus side: I can leave without penalty as long as I give 5 days notice, and there's no non-compete if I leave
19:31:49 <elliott> downside is you'll be leaving the recruiting firm rather than an employer because you're being scammed or something??
19:33:02 <Sgeo> I kind of burned a bridge with the internship possibility :(
19:33:03 <Bike> downside to a plus side? this is hard.
19:33:19 <Sgeo> (Said that I'm no longer looking for an internship)
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19:47:11 <boily> the day we'll all be on ipv6 is the day ipv8 will be out.
19:49:41 <Bike> i think that's a dead experiment for streaming
19:50:45 <olsner> (Version 5 was used by the experimental Internet Stream Protocol.)
19:51:42 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `a1' with `Char'
19:51:42 <lambdabot> `a1' is a rigid type variable bound by
19:51:42 <lambdabot> an expression type signature: a1 at <interactive>:1:1
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20:01:42 <oerjan> <elliott> I was starting to believe fizzie killed you and hid the body and was just running an IRC client to hide the truth <-- i take it this was the obvious explanation.
20:06:03 <oerjan> <Bike> don't worry, they'll be a new stereotypical enterprise language soon enough. <-- it will be based on haskell, but watered down to be codeable by enterprise drones, in a way that completely ruins the advantages of the language. </prophetic>
20:06:51 <Bike> like how java is "just" "a" watered down "small" "talk"
20:07:09 <olsner> oerjan: are you thinking about F#?
20:07:16 <Sgeo> Is Scala watered down?
20:07:28 <boily> what happens if you water down water?
20:07:36 <oerjan> no, scala is watered up
20:07:38 <olsner> scala might be watered up java
20:07:54 <boily> oh yeah. I forgot.
20:07:54 <olsner> watering up sounds like it means exactly the same as watering down
20:08:40 <oerjan> olsner: well F# is based on ocaml... but is it watered down enough to be coded by drones?
20:09:26 <metasepia> <pre><code>Usage: (-> x)
20:09:27 <metasepia> (-> x form & more)
20:09:27 <metasepia> </code></pre> Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the
20:09:27 <metasepia> second item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a
20:09:27 <metasepia> list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the
20:10:13 <Bike> the hell does duck do anyway
20:10:15 <boily> it sounds fungotty.
20:10:15 <fungot> boily: and no web browser or file manager stinks, and the extended s42 networking support)
20:10:25 <boily> ~duck duck duck go
20:10:25 <metasepia> Duck Duck Go is a search engine based in Valley Forge, Pennsylvania that uses information from crowd-sourced sites (like Wikipedia) with the aim of augmenting traditional results and improving relevance.
20:11:03 <boily> ~duck llama llama duck
20:11:10 <olsner> oerjan: not sure about that, probably just watered down enough to be useless for non-drones
20:12:22 <boily> for your late friday enjoyment: http://youtu.be/HbPDKHXWlLQ
20:13:06 <fungot> olsner: of course the command processor's initialization logic. it's pretty easy to do
20:13:15 <elliott> 20:06:03 <oerjan> <Bike> don't worry, they'll be a new stereotypical enterprise language soon enough. <-- it will be based on haskell, but watered down to be codeable by enterprise drones, in a way that completely ruins the advantages of the language. </prophetic>
20:13:16 <zzo38> I like some things about LLVM but I also think some parts of it are badly designed and many things it doesn't do, the way to fix it seems making an entirely new one, which does not have this problem.
20:13:21 <elliott> oerjan: i believe you will find this exists and is called "scala".
20:13:26 <elliott> except it's even more complex somehow.
20:14:08 <zzo38> I was thinking of Curry-Howard with logic having numbers, and I have some idea of it.
20:14:28 <zzo38> It could be, the equality now means a type of a bijective function between finite types.
20:17:10 <olsner> boily: the sound quality of that clip is amazing
20:18:18 <Bike> you know i didn't mean "stereotypical" to imply that you should stereotype it
20:19:10 <elliott> monotyping is just too restrictive, Bike
20:19:21 <boily> olsner: I think it is part of the experience. maybe.
20:19:45 <olsner> boily: if I could choose, I might choose not to experience that part
20:20:06 <Bike> please tell me "stereo" isn't actually used in type theory, i have enough trouble with the colloquial vs the psychological
20:20:26 <elliott> Bike: well there's monotypes and polytypes
20:20:33 <elliott> would be cute to refer to the latter as stereotypes
20:20:46 <Bike> stereo is two though
20:20:49 <zzo38> elliott: But what if they are more than that?
20:21:56 <elliott> well you could mean stereo to be a rank-1 type or something!!!
20:22:33 <zzo38> OK, perhaps it can?
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20:33:38 <zzo38> Is how I described, how Curry-Howard would work with logic having numbers?
20:36:13 <oerjan> <elliott> except it's even more complex somehow. <-- aka "it doesn't fit my prophecy at all"
20:36:39 <Bike> the monomorphism restriction seems... weid
20:36:43 <zzo38> I have now finished writing the recording for the Dungeons&Dragons that I played on Monday.
20:37:31 <boily> zzo38: you do recordings too? I thought I was quite alone doing that.
20:37:53 <zzo38> boily: I didn't know you do it. Well, now you know!
20:38:24 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
20:38:40 <boily> in tex too? same here.
20:38:42 <oerjan> <Bike> stereo is two though <-- the non-sound-related meanings of stereo- have nothing to do with "two". its greek meaning is supposedly "solid".
20:38:57 <Bike> nooooo that sounds way too usable in types
20:39:02 <Bike> don't give people ideas!
20:39:09 <zzo38> boily: O, I didn't know that either! Now I do know. But, what macros have you used with it? (I used a macro file I wrote myself for this purpose.)
20:39:30 <olsner> hmm, how did "solid" come to mean two-channel audio?
20:39:35 <oerjan> ok the picture-related ones also indicate "two"
20:39:41 <boily> zzo38: plain old latex. just a moment, let me find where I stashed them...
20:40:32 <oerjan> olsner: it vaguely means "three-dimensional".
20:40:55 <zzo38> boily: OK. Yes, that is what a lot of people use, and you can use it if you want, but I find the other one better.
20:42:05 <zzo38> oerjan: But neither stereo sound or stereo video are three-dimensional (although stereo video is used to simulate 3D).
20:42:26 <oerjan> zzo38: they make the _illusion_ of three-dimensionality
20:42:44 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, I suppose they do that.
20:43:03 <pikhq> Though ambisonics could actually be said to be three dimensional in some form.
20:43:19 <zzo38> Yes, ambisonics could be three dimensional.
20:43:31 <zzo38> (If you are using three-dimensional ambisonics.)
20:43:32 <pikhq> (surround sound scheme where you basically specify spherical harmonic parameters)
20:44:12 <oerjan> i think each of those get related to "two" because the fact that we have two eyes and two ears means two channels is enough to make the illusion half convincing.
20:44:18 <boily> zzo38: darn. don't have them with me, only on my home comp.
20:44:36 <oerjan> if we had three ears, stereophonic sound would require three speaker >:)
20:44:48 <boily> @tell boily good monday morning! this is myself from last friday. I forgot to forward the logs to zzo38.
20:44:55 <zzo38> I think ambisonics is something like YUV but with audio?
20:45:25 <zzo38> boily: OK, then you can get when you want to, later, if you want to. To compile my file, you will need the file dungeonsrecording.tex which is in the same directory.
20:46:13 <zzo38> oerjan: Well, perhaps if it was, that is what would be called stereophonic sound; but now stereo sound is two channels so if someone has three ears they would still use stereo with two channels, I would think.
20:46:38 <Bike> Can you have a Haskell program return a unix return value?
20:47:37 <Bike> main :: IO Int?
20:48:00 <zzo38> You need the library which tells it to return the return codes.
20:48:59 <oerjan> <Bike> the monomorphism restriction seems... weid <-- it's basically "things that look syntactically like they should only be evaluated once must be able to easily be implemented as being evaluated only once." the rest follows from how typeclasses are usually implemented with dictionary passing.
20:49:03 <fizzie> System.Exit.exitWith :: ExitCode -> IO a
20:49:37 <zzo38> boily: Do you like my recordings?
20:50:01 <boily> zzo38: can't read them now, but they look very promising :D
20:51:40 <oerjan> zzo38: yes, that's just language evolving and solidifying though.
20:51:54 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, that is what I mean.
20:54:43 <fizzie> `run echo -e 'import System.Exit\nmain = exitWith $ ExitFailure 42' > /tmp/tmp.hs && runghc /tmp/tmp.hs; echo $? # just testing
20:55:26 <Sgeo> Would it make any sense to take the job, and if I don't get the promised raise, just quit?
20:55:47 <Sgeo> Or should I be trying to get the raises into the employment contract
20:56:00 <oerjan> Bike: well, that's the plain identifier = ... version anyway. the complicatedPattern = ... version (which cannot be fixed with an annotation) is stricter because it can make types stupidly ambiguous.
20:57:57 <oerjan> as in, if you have (a,b) = something and you need _both_ the type of a and b to determine what the type of something should be
20:58:45 <oerjan> then it makes no sense to have that (typeclass) polymorphic while a and b don't need to be used together.
21:00:35 <oerjan> and the reason why there is no restriction if typeclasses are involved, is because haskell without typeclasses has full type erasure so actually _can_ use the exact same representation evaluated only once, for all types.
21:03:29 <oerjan> `run interp haskell 'main = print "test"'
21:03:38 <oerjan> `run interp haskell 'main = print "test"'
21:04:18 <oerjan> `interp haskell main = print "test"
21:07:30 <boily> it has no output, because print :: IO ().
21:07:47 <boily> (well, it takes an argument, but the end result is.)
21:08:16 * boily does that anime thing and catches the swatter with his open hands.
21:08:50 * oerjan is not fooled since he has watched nearly no anime
21:09:59 <Bike> > print "test"
21:10:01 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (GHC.Types.IO ()))
21:11:01 <boily> oerjan: but, but... it's a staple! like the school festival and the beach episode and the power of friendship and...!
21:11:30 <oerjan> I KNOW NONE OF THOSE THINGS
21:11:57 <Bike> even though you're apparently an anime staple?
21:12:04 * Fiora magical girl transformation
21:12:21 <olsner> boily: I don't recognize it either, and I've seen a bit of anime at least
21:12:37 <boily> I think there's a trope for that...
21:12:52 <Bike> oerjan: well catching your swatter with open hands is a staple evidently
21:12:55 <boily> yep! that: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BarehandedBladeBlock
21:13:45 <oerjan> i was hoping for a trope about not recognizing anime tropes
21:14:40 <Fiora> ummm in an RP I'm in it's a flashlight?
21:16:48 <zzo38> Have you seen the anime "Kaiji"?
21:17:25 <Bike> Is that the one about Go
21:17:36 <Sgeo> Hikaru no Go is the anime about Go
21:17:51 <Sgeo> I forgot how far I got :(
21:17:51 <Fiora> um, I saw akagi and probably should see kaiji
21:18:01 <olsner> but you can torch a magic wand
21:18:14 <zzo38> Fiora: I saw Akagi too, and I like both of those
21:19:18 <Fiora> but it's a magic flashlight, it blasts beams of light and love at witches
21:20:25 <boily> I'll try to sneak something to that effect in our next campaign, and see how it goes from there.
21:20:46 <olsner> Sgeo: did you get to that episode where he plays Go?
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21:34:19 <Taneb> Riding Mill is surprisingly easy to get lost in
21:34:25 <Taneb> Did you know they have like 5 village halls?
21:38:08 <olsner> shachaf: ooh, you almost have a patch in ghc
21:39:04 <shachaf> olsner: Except that someone else wrote it?
21:39:12 <shachaf> I like this situation better.
21:39:28 <olsner> "This is a slightly refined version of a patch by shachaf" it says
21:39:40 <elliott> is this the empty class things
21:39:43 <elliott> zero-parameter calss things
21:39:49 <elliott> does it support adding methods
21:44:12 <Taneb> This sounds ridiculous
21:46:04 <zzo38> Why doesn't Haskell already have zero-parameter classes?
21:46:43 <zzo38> That isn't exactly the same
21:46:45 <Taneb> coppro, wouldn't they have kind Constraint?
21:47:04 <shachaf> Otherwise I don't like it so much.
21:47:32 -!- {^Raven^} has joined.
21:47:36 <Taneb> zzo38, perhaps because they're kind of useless if you don't think about them much?
21:49:22 <HackEgo> {^RaVeN^}: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
21:50:03 <zzo38> Nevertheless, it seems that they are just another case of the classes, so it should be supported like multi-parameter are; also, they could be used if you don't define the instance until another module
21:50:57 <Sgeo> My dad's concerned about lack of specification of how many hours I would actually be working
21:51:37 <Taneb> elliott, have we accidentally encountered eachother face to face thus destroying the universe yet?
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21:54:24 <zzo38> What else might be useful is define types local to a block
21:54:39 <Gregor> Quoth the {^Raven^}, "nevermore".
21:54:41 <zzo38> {^Raven^}: What is it that you wanted?
21:55:14 <elliott> {^Raven^}: wow weren't you here in like 2005
21:55:24 <{^Raven^}> I used to hang out here an era ago.
21:55:40 <zzo38> {^Raven^}: Well, we changed the logs since then.
21:55:55 <Gregor> Hmmm, I guess my memory sucks X-D
21:56:33 <{^Raven^}> I remember you Gregor and a few other peeps.
21:56:43 <Sgeo> Hmm, was I here in 2005?
21:56:47 <Sgeo> I forgot when I showed up
21:56:53 <Sgeo> `pastelogs Sgeo
21:57:04 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.15649
21:57:18 <HackEgo> {^Raven^}: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:58:41 <{^Raven^}> It's been 8 years, I barely remember breakfast.
21:59:01 <Taneb> I'm elliott's good twin
21:59:05 <pikhq> Do I recognize this Raven person?
21:59:08 <zzo38> Can you believe six impossible things before breakfast, now?
21:59:47 <{^Raven^}> You bet. 5 of them are the alarms I vainly hope will awaken me.
22:00:05 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.10124
22:00:48 <pikhq> Hmm, may have been before my time.
22:01:04 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.5264
22:02:17 <zzo38> Is there a internet protocol for log in to send/receive SQL commands and response?
22:02:18 <kmc> hi {^Raven^}
22:02:37 <kmc> zzo38: yes it's called any text field on any PHP website
22:02:58 <zzo38> {^Raven^}: No; I mean without website and without necessarily PHP
22:03:16 <Taneb> {^Raven^}, on my pastelog, I appear and hold a conversation I remember having... about a year before I knew IRC existed
22:04:05 <zzo38> kmc: Is there separate protocol, though?
22:06:02 <kmc> zzo38: I think every SQL server package has their own protocol
22:06:05 <kmc> i don't know of a standard one
22:06:25 <kmc> (probably each has several protocols, realistically)
22:07:13 <zzo38> Perhaps a generic one could be made, then.
22:08:11 <zzo38> In case you want to any clients who might connect on the SQL, to be able to operate it remotely.
22:08:47 -!- augur has joined.
22:09:29 <zzo38> Well, that is how it works, sometimes.
22:09:35 <zzo38> I don't really like USB; it has problems.
22:09:39 <Bike> need a standard for dealing with multiple competing standards
22:09:41 <kmc> cell phone chargers have actually become a lot more standard
22:09:53 <kmc> as have character encodings
22:09:54 <Bike> i think my favorite version of that is still zzo38 saying he conforms to a lot of stuff others don't, though
22:10:05 <zzo38> Bike: There is, such as internet, we have different port numbers for other protocols.
22:10:41 <kmc> internet? yeah, i'd say internet
22:10:56 <Bike> i guess it is an inter net work after all
22:10:56 <{^Raven^}> You'd have to limityourself to lowest common denominator SQL wchich could be limiting in itself
22:11:10 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQmK1CnwOUI
22:11:40 <Bike> is this better than windows 1.0's ads
22:11:53 <zzo38> {^Raven^}: To ensure working with everything you will, even though some servers may use additional commands, which might work too even though such thing is not SQL standard and not guarantee working everything.
22:11:54 <Bike> wow he does sound drunk
22:12:11 <Bike> post your.... photographs......
22:12:58 <zzo38> Yes there are different standards, but often they don't even conform, anyways.
22:13:02 <Taneb> {^Raven^}, so what have you been up to in the past few years
22:13:30 <zzo38> I don't like PostScript and PDF and Microsoft paper format, so I use DVI.
22:13:53 -!- jiella has joined.
22:13:53 <zzo38> kmc: Not all PHP website is SQL anyways.
22:14:01 <zzo38> SQL is a different programming language to PHP.
22:14:03 * {^Raven^} has been getting paid to write programs for a living
22:14:21 <zzo38> {^Raven^}: What programs?
22:15:26 <zzo38> For telephone I use POTS.
22:15:44 <kmc> smoke POTS everyday
22:15:59 <{^Raven^}> Mostly large scale websites. Nothing I'd like to talk about though I like to keep my personal and professional lives seperate.
22:16:53 <Taneb> {^Raven^}, did you get asked the Hexham question when you used to be here?
22:17:17 <zzo38> O, so you don't write any Famicom games?
22:17:31 <kmc> hard to get paid to write Famicom games these days, I expect
22:17:42 <Taneb> {^Raven^}, do you live in Hexham?
22:17:52 <zzo38> kmc: I suppose you are correct.
22:17:56 <elliott> {^Raven^}: wait are you the person who made that Lost Kingdom thing
22:17:59 <Bike> it's more like who doesn't write famicom games
22:18:17 <elliott> i knew the name seemed familiar!!!
22:18:24 <elliott> i hear ais523 almost beat it
22:18:55 <{^Raven^}> Props, to Calamair without whom it wouldn't have been possible
22:19:08 <zzo38> Well, I have written one Famicom game, called "Famicom Hangman", but I might write more later on, based on some of the games I have made in QBASIC, but a bit different. However, BIGMAZE might be too slow on Famicom because it has to make up a random maze and it uses a slow algorithm to do so.
22:20:56 <Taneb> Trivia: the "piet" package on Hackage seems to suck
22:21:42 <Bike> I don't. I am the answer to the question.
22:21:53 <Bike> I am the Famicomless spoken of in old legends.
22:22:56 <{^Raven^}> So, what have I missed in the lasy 8 years or so since I last logged in?
22:23:56 <Taneb> Pretty cool esolang
22:24:53 <Taneb> The... wiki changed host?
22:25:26 <Taneb> The Fancy L problem?
22:25:44 <fungot> Taneb: like docstrings or something? :p. ugh i need to find more minor details to fiddle in my toy lisp interpreter turned out to be a
22:25:49 <Sgeo> The chat is made up of different people
22:25:55 <Sgeo> Oh, and HackEgo too probably
22:26:32 <HackEgo> P=9hR3*9߳tm)Ϩٰqu!p \ 5IQx^i8?0BמvaoRWz.qP,'vֆcmC~Ce|
22:26:40 <Taneb> The many names of Taneb?
22:27:16 <Sgeo> fax and cheaters' banishment?
22:27:30 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover's Tumblr?
22:27:38 <Bike> The harrowing of hell.
22:28:37 <Bike> cpressey came back to tell elliott to shut up about Scots and then left again.
22:29:28 <Sgeo> You missed the new language I made that only I seem to care about.
22:29:34 <Sgeo> Oh, you also missed PSOX
22:29:43 <Taneb> PSOX came and went
22:29:44 <Bike> You also missed cpressey, maybe.
22:29:47 <Sgeo> (Another thing that only I care about)
22:30:30 <Bike> Sgeo, did you read that one thesis on trusting trust?
22:30:32 <elliott> actually only cheater and dbelange are banned.
22:30:41 <{^Raven^}> A bit like PESOIX only more implemented
22:31:03 <Sgeo> Bike, funny thing is, I never actually read it
22:31:07 <Sgeo> For all that it's inspired me
22:31:52 <Bike> well don't feel bad, nobody else has read it either
22:32:00 <Bike> a lot like worse is better probably
22:32:50 <oerjan> {^Raven^}: you are still too early to miss Feather.
22:33:02 <elliott> i read the original reflections on trusting trust, it's accessible so why wouldn't you
22:33:08 <elliott> i haven't read the defeating trusting trust thing
22:33:15 <oerjan> sadly nothing like PESOIX and PSOX has taken off.
22:33:42 <elliott> http://www.dwheeler.com/trusting-trust/ this one
22:34:02 <{^Raven^}> I recall someone did write a nice POSIX PESOIX layer.
22:34:04 <elliott> maybet hat's the one Bike meant.
22:34:13 <elliott> since the original one isn't a thesis
22:34:17 <Bike> yeah, that's what i was thinking of
22:34:21 -!- jiella has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:34:42 <oerjan> {^Raven^}: you have also missed ///
22:34:56 <pikhq> And the mass Haskellization.
22:35:16 <Taneb> pikhq, what was there before the mass Haskellization
22:35:26 <pikhq> On topic discussion.
22:35:35 <Bike> everybody were diehard snobol programmers
22:35:38 <oerjan> technically i think you may have missed LOLCODE, i'm mentioning this only to annoy the others.
22:35:53 <{^Raven^}> I remember writing a few CGI programs in pure BF back then.
22:36:21 -!- jiella has joined.
22:36:32 <Sgeo> `welcome jiella
22:36:35 <HackEgo> jiella: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:36:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:37:33 <oerjan> despite Phantom_Hoover's best intentions, you have also missed a heap of brainfuck derivatives.
22:38:35 <Taneb> oerjan, would you say MIBBLLII is a brainfuck derivative
22:39:25 <oerjan> Taneb: well then it would obviously be in the category, wouldn't it? duh.
22:39:48 <Taneb> It was inspired by the concept of brainfuck derivatives
22:40:32 <oerjan> i recall when i arrived Backflip was one of the first new languages. so since i arrived after you left, you probably missed that.
22:40:58 <oerjan> in fact we've pretty much forgotten it, even though ais523 made derivatives of it.
22:41:22 <Bike> Taneb: ha, i like it
22:41:32 <oerjan> was Emmental around back then? and Jolverine, those are cpressey languages i recall working on.
22:42:01 <Bike> huh is bckw just a superset of ski
22:42:25 <shachaf> a superset of a subset of ski
22:42:42 <Bike> oh, < doesn't seem to be in bcwksdkfasd
22:42:45 <oerjan> Bike: a re-basing, so to speak.
22:42:59 <olsner> is k in bckw the k in ski?
22:43:18 <Bike> S is some garbage, though
22:43:21 <olsner> p.s. single-combinator bases are way cooler
22:43:37 <Bike> mibbllii has more combinators. clearly software bloat.
22:43:51 <oerjan> you missed Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
22:44:12 <{^Raven^}> Hmm, looking at the title, are esolangs still on topic?
22:44:24 <Taneb> Bike, BCKW and SKI are similar but different
22:44:30 <Taneb> I find BCKW easier to code with
22:44:57 <oerjan> {^Raven^}: the _title_ isn't always on topic. more so now than usual, actually.
22:44:58 <Bike> {^Raven^}: as you can see the people in the channel still know things about them.
22:45:06 <olsner> or maybe that's a misuse of ostensibly if it doesn't actually say anywhere that esolangs are on topic
22:45:20 <olsner> ostensibly off topic, supposedly on topic, actually not usually on topic
22:45:37 <Bike> also i can't think of a single-combinator base off the top of my head, fuck
22:45:50 <Taneb> Bike, there's Iota's i
22:46:03 <oerjan> i think zzo38 arrived after me, so all his languages, such as Flogscript
22:46:14 <Bike> oh, that works
22:46:44 * {^Raven^} has some nefarious plans but nothing that actually has any code behind yet.
22:47:19 <Bike> is it a bf derivative i bet it is
22:47:29 <oerjan> of course many others arrived after me, but zzo38 was _very_ prolific at the beginning.
22:48:37 <shachaf> imo the topic of #esoteric should be the topic of #esoteric
22:49:06 <Bike> good opinion. approved
22:50:02 <shachaf> Bike: who died and made you opinion police
22:50:55 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:51:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:51:14 <Bike> I didn't say I approved it.
22:52:04 <shachaf> Bike: i was shooting the figurative messenger
22:52:06 <oerjan> wait, why didn't i list it on my article page, i proved it TC
22:53:54 <Sgeo> I should make another esolan
22:54:26 <Sgeo> Should it be more Trust-ish languages, or something else?
22:54:34 <Sgeo> I really don't have any other ideas :(
22:54:51 <Bike> whenever you feel inesolangadequate just remember that i don't even have a wiki account
22:55:16 <Taneb> And my first esolang was an Ook! derivative
22:55:27 <nooodl_> make a programming language that's a game engine
22:55:52 <Sgeo> Taneb, braintrust is not my first esolang
22:56:42 <nooodl_> the interpreter is a game. code is inputted and executed by performing tasks in-game
22:56:45 <Sgeo> Going to read some Paranoia Live logs
22:57:13 <Taneb> nooodl_, there was a PS2 game like that, I believe
22:57:18 <Taneb> Only released in Japan
22:59:06 <Taneb> I'm still surprised Fueue is turing complete
22:59:40 <oerjan> ...how could it not be.
22:59:58 <monqy> Sgeo: who needs ideas when you have desire & ambition
23:00:07 <oerjan> unless it were obviously restricted like Ftack
23:00:36 <Sgeo> (Unimplementable) esolang idea:
23:00:39 <Taneb> It's not just turing complete, it's turing complete if you remove like half the instructions
23:01:13 <oerjan> {^Raven^}: you also missed Fueue, if i didn't mention it yet.
23:01:20 <Sgeo> Esolang that would be turing complete except there's one specific calculation that cannot be performed, one program that cannot be run, even by, say, simulating GoL
23:02:24 <zzo38> Sgeo: I don't think such thing is possible even mathematically
23:03:06 <oerjan> Sgeo: seems very hard to define properly while still giving an interesting result...
23:03:06 <Sgeo> Sure it is. Just check that no parts of the program = the forbidden program, with an implementation in a super-TC language.
23:03:48 <oerjan> Sgeo: i suspect in that case, you would find it hard to prove any given program _could_ be run.
23:03:54 <elliott> you have a very curious definition of "sure it is"...
23:05:02 <oerjan> because that program could give you, in an unprovable way, the ability to simulate the forbidden one.
23:06:05 <oerjan> Taneb: oh well, arithmetic is overrated anyway
23:06:08 <elliott> oerjan: hm i note that for underload, it is not known how to remove a or * from a program, other than by converting it to a turing machine first...
23:07:59 <oerjan> elliott: without a or * there is no way to construct _new_ subprograms, which means if you take the subprograms you start with you almost have a TM by definition.
23:08:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:08:53 <elliott> seems like there should be a way to do a translation that results in less indirection/program explosion than going through a TM, but what do I know
23:09:05 <elliott> also, I was thinking of a and * _separately_
23:10:07 <oerjan> elliott: i think there can only be a constant factor difference.
23:10:28 <oerjan> ok if you do them _separately_, maybe...
23:10:45 <oerjan> a just gives you a sort of added counter ability.
23:11:34 <oerjan> i have thought before that you can remove either a or *, _and_ ~ without dropping all the way down to a minsky machine.
23:12:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
23:12:41 * elliott is just thinking that it would be interesting to a have an underload program --> :()^ program that works subset by subset, rather than involving a big first leap of conversion to TM then compilation
23:12:48 <oerjan> ...i suppose removing just * would probably allow you to do something resembling brainfuck with unbounded calls
23:12:49 <elliott> *:()^ program transformation
23:15:59 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1adb56/wikimedia_enables_lua_scripting_for_page_content/
23:18:06 <Bike> good strikethrough
23:19:05 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
23:23:13 <zzo38> I happen to like MediaWiki format too, compared to other wiki
23:23:15 <Bike> does hackego have a function to spit out a link to the wiki for a given term?
23:25:41 <Phantom_Hoover> mediawiki is shit and yet i've yet to see another wiki system that isn't annoyingly awkward
23:26:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wiki: not found
23:26:21 <fungot> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/maybe
23:27:42 <Sgeo> Esolang interpreters right on the Esowiki pages!
23:29:01 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Well, yes, OK, but still I like MediaWiki syntax compared to other wiki.
23:29:06 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/wiki
23:40:34 <Taneb> My Tumblr profile picture's cropped so it says "CE CREAMS HER"
23:41:03 <oerjan> a clear case of karma.
23:41:07 <Phantom_Hoover> sex acts with obscure pronouns are most tolerant sex acts
23:41:07 -!- {^Raven^} has left.
23:42:39 <Taneb> That's like 100 miles away from Hexham
23:43:28 <Taneb> https://maps.google.co.uk/
23:43:35 <Taneb> https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?saddr=hexham&daddr=sheffield&hl=en&sll=52.8382,-2.327815&sspn=7.728394,20.214844&geocode=FfnQRgMdcMXf_ykVmDENYpB9SDEEwA0heCs6qA%3BFQmILgMde5Hp_ykVvuj6qQp5SDF4sAav9ScoPg&t=h&mra=ls&z=8
23:43:49 <Taneb> Sheffield's practically midlands!
23:44:00 <Taneb> It's closer to ais523 than it is to me!
23:44:09 <Phantom_Hoover> i have heard people say nottingham is where the north starts
23:44:17 <nooodl_> wow hexham is very Northern
23:44:20 <Phantom_Hoover> relatedly: warwick is so full of southerners i feel so alone
23:44:54 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, that's your own fault for not abusing free university education in Scotland
23:45:24 <Phantom_Hoover> it's not our fault we're politically disconnected from the south
23:45:41 <elliott> i think {^raven^} gvae up on us
23:45:59 <elliott> oerjan: btw someone should update ^wiki
23:46:05 <elliott> i am pinging you for absolutely no reason!
23:46:50 <fungot> +13[>+9>+9>+8>+4<4-]>3.<2-..-4.>3+6.-11..<-3.<-2.<-.>+.>.<-2.<-6.>2-2.>-.<2+4.>+12.<+2.<-4.>-12.>+.<-7.>+2.<+.-.<-2.>2+2.>.<2+9.<+2.>2.>+.<+3.-14.+2.-2.>.,[.,]
23:47:13 <oerjan> !bf_txtgen http://esolangs.org/wiki/
23:47:53 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:48:07 <oerjan> `interp bf_txtgen http://esolangs.org/wiki/
23:48:11 <nooodl_> what's the hexhammian english accent like
23:48:20 <HackEgo> 171 +++++++++++++++[>++++>+++++++>+++++++>++++++++<<<<-]>>>-.>----..<<+++++++.<--.-----------..>>---.<+++.>>-----.---.<----.>++.<++++++.<.<-.>>>+.+++.<.<<+.>++++.>++.++.--.<<. [864]
23:48:41 <Taneb> nooodl_, it's a bit like geordie
23:48:41 <oerjan> ^def wiki bf +++++++++++++++[>++++>+++++++>+++++++>++++++++<<<<-]>>>-.>----..<<+++++++.<--.-----------..>>---.<+++.>>-----.---.<----.>++.<++++++.<.<-.>>>+.+++.<.<<+.>++++.>++.++.--.<<.,[.,]
23:48:48 <fungot> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esme
23:48:55 <Phantom_Hoover> nooodl_, illustrative example courtesy of google: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTfC1BIgTCw
23:49:05 <Taneb> nooodl_, but with a bit of posh English in it too
23:49:18 <oerjan> fizzie: pls save kthxbye
23:49:29 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, the Northumbrian accent is mainly further North
23:49:59 <elliott> oerjan: you picked the optimal article to test it on, too
23:50:09 <Taneb> Starting from Blyth and ending near Berwick
23:50:32 <Taneb> Fading from Geordie to Borders Scottish
23:51:17 <oerjan> elliott: i know right?
23:51:18 <nooodl_> elliott: is this true (ph's link)
23:51:20 <elliott> i don't really have an accent
23:51:23 -!- augur has joined.
23:51:26 <elliott> except like vaguely british
23:51:50 <Taneb> But yeah, the Hexham accent is somewhere between vaguely british and geordie
23:52:46 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, i used to think that but apparently my accent is identifiably scottish
23:52:47 <Taneb> I have a ridiculous accent
23:53:15 <oerjan> i don't have an accent, Ø is a perfectly undivided letter
23:53:16 <Taneb> (I'm now imagining Phantom_Hoover with a somewhat confused thick Glaswegian accent)
23:53:29 <Taneb> (all the more confused because he's not from Glasgow)
23:53:54 <nooodl_> if only i could hear talk_esme_baby
23:53:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well I assume there's some rhoticity in mine. I forget whether it's the rhotic kind or the non-rhotic kind
23:53:57 <Bike> you know on twitter glasgow is being bombed right now
23:54:01 <Taneb> I also have the worst accent
23:54:16 <elliott> Bike: twitter has bombs now?
23:54:21 <Taneb> It's a kind of nasal upper class Northern english with slight Australian and Dutch twinges
23:54:48 <oerjan> the hexham accent is thoroughly rhotten
23:54:50 <Bike> https://twitter.com/RealTimeWWII/status/312604111843495936 bombed... by terrorists
23:54:51 <nooodl_> that sounds very good taneb
23:55:18 <elliott> Bike: well that's just regular glasgow
23:55:24 <HackEgo> 460) <Phantom_Hoover> Riots in Glasgow would probably be reported as a sudden drop in crime. \ 616) <Phantom_Hoover> No you can't fight crime in Glasgow. <Phantom_Hoover> It's like trying to get rid of the space-time continuum. \ 784) <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, like Glasgow but nicer <Taneb> So, not like Glasgow at all
23:56:26 <oerjan> `run quote glasgow | tail -c300
23:56:27 <HackEgo> over> Riots in Glasgow would probably be reported as a sudden drop in crime. \ 616) <Phantom_Hoover> No you can't fight crime in Glasgow. <Phantom_Hoover> It's like trying to get rid of the space-time continuum. \ 784) <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, like Glasgow but nicer <Taneb> So, not like Glasgow at all
23:56:41 <HackEgo> 623) <ais523> also, why isn't monqy from Hexham? his name sounds like he should be \ 692) <ais523> oh right: Frooxius, you wouldn't happen to live in Hexham, would you? <Frooxius> No, sorry. <ais523> phew <Ngevd> How about Finland? <Frooxius> Why would I live there? <fizzie> That's a *very* good question. <fizzie> Why would anyone? \ 956) <bo
23:56:54 <oerjan> `run quote hexham | tail -c300
23:56:56 <HackEgo> uld you? <Frooxius> No, sorry. <ais523> phew <Ngevd> How about Finland? <Frooxius> Why would I live there? <fizzie> That's a *very* good question. <fizzie> Why would anyone? \ 956) <boily> had a fit of a stroke of genius, and google mapped hexham. <boily> it's in the friggin middle of nowhere!
23:57:27 <Taneb> `run quote Hexham | tail -c600
23:57:29 <HackEgo> 623) <ais523> also, why isn't monqy from Hexham? his name sounds like he should be \ 692) <ais523> oh right: Frooxius, you wouldn't happen to live in Hexham, would you? <Frooxius> No, sorry. <ais523> phew <Ngevd> How about Finland? <Frooxius> Why would I live there? <fizzie> That's a *very* good question. <fizzie> Why would anyone? \ 956) <bo
00:05:56 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:10:43 <Sgeo> There's a YouTube page of the music from Orisinal games
00:10:52 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/user/orisinalmusic
00:10:58 <Bike> wow, that sounds obscure
00:11:17 <shachaf> Fiora: imo finland is a p.nice place
00:11:52 <shachaf> Fiora: Channel law is that you have to change your nick to a unique two-letter prefix now.
00:12:18 <Sgeo> Bike, orisinal.com
00:12:20 <oerjan> i'm sorry, FireFly cannot change, it might cause innocents to be swatted.
00:12:52 <Fiora> I wanna keep my name
00:13:15 <Bike> This isn't a game Sgeo. This is a bunch of games.
00:14:04 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, well, I didn't know where they came from. Just that one of them sounded like Pachelbel or whatever
00:14:17 <Bike> be fair, everything sounds like pachelbel
00:14:32 <Bike> I have seen no videos.
00:17:49 <shachaf> imo oerjan should change his name to make room for all the other øccupants of that prefix
00:19:50 <Sgeo> Bike, did I say it was a game?
00:20:20 <Bike> no, but i felt the need to clarify that it wasn't a game
00:20:21 <Bike> which it isn't.
00:21:19 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: ZZZZ).
00:23:03 <Phantom_Hoover> (paravonian video is here btw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdxkVQy7QLM)
00:27:38 <shachaf> is that Taneb's evil twin?
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01:03:32 <jiella> Ooh, I got welcomed. Wow.
01:03:59 <HackEgo> jiella: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:05:26 <Sgeo> Is there any kind of rhyme or reason to that coloring
01:05:31 <HackEgo> Sgeo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:05:34 <HackEgo> Sgeo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:05:40 <HackEgo> Sgeo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:05:47 <HackEgo> Sgeo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:06:21 <Bike> wouldn't it be more instructive to check the source, rather than reverse engineering the amazingly complicated color mechanism
01:12:39 <Sgeo> I just wanted to know if it was random
01:13:41 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
01:28:56 <kmc> http://docopt.org/ can't decide if this is too cute or not
01:29:47 <Sgeo> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VideoGame/Orisinal
01:38:26 <elliott> kmc: the problem i see is that it makes you type things in a more human-consumable but timewasty format
01:38:39 <elliott> when that kind of stuff could be generated from a more succint, less "faithful" DSL
01:39:29 <kmc> i don't think it wastes much time to type that text
01:39:43 <kmc> and it makes the options very clear because it's already in a format you can read
01:39:51 <kmc> ... assuming the library interprets everything the same way
01:39:54 <kmc> which is the trick
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01:51:10 <jiella> I think this is getting to be a bit too much.
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01:56:04 <elliott> couldn't handle the welcomes
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02:40:30 <fungot> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
02:41:51 <Sgeo> coppro, yes, we knew yesterday
02:42:07 <Sgeo> I believe I did a ^list for the new album
02:44:28 <Fiora> the new album is wonderful
02:55:29 <Sgeo> the pocketed planets match up with the Felt who were dead when MC arrived
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03:13:20 <coppro> Fiora: I think Genesis Frog is still best though
03:13:34 <coppro> (even though I've been waiting on Eternity Served Cold since the flash)
03:14:39 <Sgeo> Credits page still not updated
03:14:42 <Fiora> I love The Lordling, actually
03:14:49 <Fiora> I wonder what flash or whatever that's from (or is it?)
03:15:23 <Fiora> I thought that was Eternity Served Cold
03:15:23 <Sgeo> Eternity Served Cold == Eternity's Shylock
03:15:59 <coppro> oh. The Lordling has not
03:16:08 <coppro> Sgeo: Eternity Served Cold is longer
03:16:46 <Fiora> something about the lordling reminds me of Disgaea (I wonder if the feel is intentional?)
03:17:01 <Sgeo> [S] Jane: Enter is still considered to have A Taste of Adventure
03:17:12 <Sgeo> People complained about the name Eternity's Shylock
03:17:27 <Fiora> yeah, a few people mentioned it wasn't a great name so they changed it
03:17:31 <Fiora> since it didn't make much sense to begin with
03:18:14 <Bike> how is a shylock a thing you have
03:19:01 <Fiora> my favorite is still Cascade, I think though
03:20:00 <coppro> cascade is pretty damn epic
03:20:04 <coppro> http://theophany-rmx.bandcamp.com/album/times-end-majoras-mask-remixed
03:20:16 <coppro> Black Hole Green Sun is my favourite part
03:20:28 <coppro> though Saviour is very very close
03:20:43 <Fiora> Savior of the Dreaming Dead is pretty great too
03:20:52 <Bike> oh i should listen to the majora's mask thing again
03:21:32 <coppro> the sweeping violins take it though
03:22:47 <Sgeo> Black Hole Green Sun is something I hum to myself when I'm doing something (e.g. transportation) to meet up with someone
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03:58:20 <zzo38> The sound of the Atari TIA is limited to 5-bit period although you can set an additional divider, either 2, 6, 31, or 93, so I suppose you cannot make 12-TET music, but you could use its own scale to make up a different kind of music, perhaps.
04:04:02 <coppro> Fiora: actually scratch that
04:04:12 <coppro> my favourite is Buy NAK Sell DOOF
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04:06:00 <Fiora> wooow. that's a really good song, I hadn't even heard it
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04:07:19 <coppro> you haven't listened to Genesis Frog?
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04:15:28 <Sgeo> I haven't listened to Genesis Frog
04:19:24 <Sgeo> I should be eating.
04:19:43 <coppro> you can do that while listening to genesis frog, protip
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05:37:57 <zzo38> I wonder what kind of scales could be played on the Atari TIA?
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05:42:06 <zzo38> I think it is called undertone series.
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07:04:50 <Sgeo> It's tempting to state that with normal non-cloud-based software, you'll never have the situation of an external entity ceasing to support it, but even with an OSS project, if the community dwindles too much such that the project is no longer developed, it may be difficult to keep using that software in the future, as security holes go unfixed, and newer OSes fail to support older binary
07:06:21 <Sgeo> http://www.fsf.org/blogs/sysadmin/google-backslides-on-federated-instant-messaging-on-purpose :(
07:11:04 <Sgeo> The XMPP thing is unrelated to my comment before, which was about Google Reader
07:14:13 <zzo38> Still, with non-cloud-based open-source software, there is a much better possibility to continue to support it, than with proprietary and/or cloud-based software. With open source, like any software, it is possible to be abandoned, but it can be continued working on later by someone else if they are interested in it.
07:47:48 <elliott> @ask taneb are you a tactical amulet non-extraction bot
07:47:52 <elliott> @ask ngevd which name do you use these days
07:48:06 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/b10f1779aa67289af9f2af56c964516d/tumblr_mjqtdtBWVl1r4xqamo1_500.jpg
07:49:53 <zzo38> I play the game "StarTrek Guess" on X-BIT BBS. It is usually easy by guessing the word due to context, due to knowing some things about Star Trek, and because all the puzzles are given in alphabetical order.
07:50:39 <zzo38> If it ends with "-_" then I will try Q, for example.
07:51:23 <zzo38> Would that be your choice?
07:51:44 <monqy> though probably I would guess Q for other reasons
07:52:00 <Bike> zzo38: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5tyMXXDPX4
07:52:23 <monqy> i remember watching that tas. it's a good tas.
07:52:36 <elliott> which one is it i cant really open links
07:52:44 <monqy> family feud glitchfest
07:53:00 <elliott> whys my space doing this today
07:53:25 <zzo38> It is like hangman or Wheel of Fortune, where you have the template with _ in place of the letters. So if it end by "-_" then I will probably try Q as my first guess. If it starts with "_ " and the recent ones were "I ", then I will try I since the puzzles are in alphabetical order.
07:53:47 <zzo38> I don't know why they are in alphabetical order, but after playing this game a few times I realized that it is, for some reason.
07:57:39 <zzo38> Another way to score would be to have the way to bet on a position(s) having a letter, and if it does, you earn bonus points.
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08:06:18 <zzo38> Can anyone answer my question about the bijective function types having to do with the logic with numbers?
08:12:13 <zzo38> What is the Curry-Howard of quantum logic?
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10:04:10 <zzo38> What is it called, when, if A is less than or equal to B then you can always subtract A from B, although there might be more than one way to do so, and it might be possible to subtract even if A is not less than or equal to B?
10:08:03 <shachaf> I didn't see your question about bijective function types having to do with the logic with numbers.
10:11:24 <zzo38> shachaf: Maybe I forgot to write it? Nevertheless I can repeat.
10:12:02 <zzo38> If you are making logic with numbers, can the type system corresponding include the type of bijective functions between finite types?
10:17:14 <zzo38> shachaf: Now do you know?
10:17:36 <shachaf> I don't think I understand the question.
10:19:09 <zzo38> You may know about Curry-Howard, with functional programming having types of intuitionistic logic. I was trying to think of what it makes if you add logic that includes numbers.
10:20:40 <zzo38> That is what I mean by the question. Now can you understand it?
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10:38:22 <EgoBot> 585072 +++++++++++++[>+++++>+++>+>++++++<<<<-]>>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<------.>++++++++.<<++++++++++++++.------------.>>++++++++++++++++.>+++++++++++.<----.-----------.<<-----------------------------------.>>>+++++++++++++++.++++++++++++.<<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>>--------.<-------.<-----------------------.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>----.++++++++++++.---
10:55:59 <FreeFull> zzo38: In Idris, if you subtract a large natural from a small natural, you just get zero
10:59:25 <zzo38> FreeFull: Well, that satisfies the conditions, but it doesn't describe everything that is having such conditions.
11:00:48 <FreeFull> You could make your own integers that would produce negative values
11:02:00 <zzo38> (If there is an ordering and subtraction is always possible, that satisfies the conditions, but I mean even some things where subtraction might not be always possible, or where there might be more than one possible answer of the subtraction)
11:02:28 <zzo38> (It is not pure subtraction in such case)
11:02:35 <zzo38> (well, not necessarily, anyways.)
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11:14:41 <zzo38> I don't mean necessarily only ordinary subtraction.
11:23:30 <FreeFull> zzo38: Say, a function that returns a list of values?
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11:27:27 <zzo38> FreeFull: Well, something like that; maybe returns a set of values.
11:27:45 <zzo38> Perhaps if you have this kind of extraordinary subtraction, then you can have the extraordinary addition to go with it, too.
11:28:28 <FreeFull> zzo38: Well, could return [] too
11:28:47 <zzo38> FreeFull: Yes, that is what I was thinking of too.
11:28:53 <FreeFull> Maybe it could work in the list monad
11:29:06 <FreeFull> using guard to eliminate values
11:30:25 <zzo38> I would think it should be set monad, although you could use list monad to pretend to be a set monad.
11:30:54 <zzo38> But I mean there is always at least one answer if A is less than or equal to B.
11:32:29 <FreeFull> You could probably enforce that in the type
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11:35:57 <zzo38> If a Icosahedral RPG multimana is defined as the multiset of manas, then the ordinary addition is the multiset sum, and the ordinary multiplication is the cartesian product over the multiset sum. Therefore you will have an ordinary subtraction as well. But you could then have extraordinary subtraction, if A is what you have and B is the mana cost, A-B is whatever is left over afterward; there might be more than one answer (or none at all).
11:36:19 <zzo38> You could then have its inverse, the extraordinary addition, which does the similar thing.
11:37:09 <zzo38> In this case, extraordinary subtraction A-B is possible if and only if B is less than or equal to A.
11:37:19 <zzo38> Is the result set guaranteed to have a greatest element?
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11:46:49 <zzo38> No, I don't think so. If `- is extraordinary subtraction, then (ug+ur+1)`-u can result ug+1 or ur+1 neither of which is greater.
11:51:15 <zzo38> However, I think that with extraordinary addition (which, unlike ordinary addition, is not commutative), there will always be one least answer, which is the same answer as ordinary addition.
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14:21:14 <hagb4rd> hey elliott: do you still have the link to that page on whch generated sounds from mathematical formulas? i can't find :(
14:24:30 <hagb4rd> got it: http://wurstcaptures.untergrund.net/music/
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15:19:51 <Arc_Koen> warning: fleshlight invasion on the wiki
15:20:07 <Arc_Koen> I have no idea what that is and I really don't want to know
15:21:42 <monqy> it's kind of like a flashlight
15:24:13 <coppro> what are they teaching kids in school these days
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15:33:28 <oklopol> Arc_Koen: ignorance is not cool
15:37:20 <oklopol> a fleshlight is a fake vagina.
15:38:37 <oklopol> do you think it'll be okay for men to have sex toys too, some day?
15:39:42 <oklopol> Arc_Koen: it's part of my war against willful ignorance
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15:51:29 <fizzie> GOOG, isn't that the NASDAQ code for Google?
15:52:31 <olsner> goog.com redirected me to a page (in swedish!) asking me how old I am
15:59:47 <Gregor> Even so, something tells me that GOOG is not the NASDAQ code for Swedish porn.
16:03:31 <Taneb> Google's just bought out SexyMse.xxx
16:04:55 <Gregor> When will the powerful Swedish Porn Consortium stop? D-8
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16:35:15 <fizzie> http://ow.ly/j2UQo "If it’s not a cult, then why are they painted grey? And why are they wearing devil horns?" Is this... is this about Homestuck cosplayers?
16:35:19 <fizzie> (I had to url-shorten it because the actual link makes the 'not-sure-about-it' "joke" not work.)
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16:53:28 <Taneb> fizzie, seen it before, and yes
16:54:08 <fizzie> Taneb: Were you, in fact, THERE?
16:54:20 <Taneb> (disclaimer: I was not)
16:54:31 <fizzie> Are you, in fact, "Guest"?!
16:54:34 <Taneb> (however, I am going to an anime con in Homestuck cosplay next weekend)
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16:55:13 <fizzie> Oh, so you're in a cult.
16:55:48 <Taneb> The mysterious cult known only as...
16:56:13 <Taneb> I, however, am not one of the horn-wearing grey-skinned ones
16:56:18 <Taneb> I AM SUPERIOR TO THAT
16:56:21 <olsner> fizzie: I don't know, but I liked that last line
16:57:50 <Taneb> One day, some English sports fans are gonna sing "Jerusalem" at a match against Israel and everyone will be confused
16:57:56 <Bike> Are you cosplaying as Casey
16:58:12 <Taneb> Bike, I actually was almost going to be Secret Wizard
17:01:19 <Taneb> Alas, I am cosplaying Jake English
17:01:53 <Taneb> I need to make those today
17:07:56 <Taneb> No, but green bodywarmer tier
17:09:39 <Taneb> http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/301104_453019734742315_623549310_n.jpg <-- me being Jake English previously
17:10:31 <Taneb> Alas, I am not the best cosplayer
17:10:36 <olsner> which one's jake english?
17:10:59 <elliott> oh wow these new spam pages are fantastic
17:11:11 <Bike> spam pages you say
17:11:22 <Taneb> http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=006906
17:11:25 <elliott> 10 Benefits of fleshlightWhy spanking the monkey at him in private. A Fleshlight is always ready to work and a certain amount of pain. Humor that has some impact on self-identity, gender relations, and many in our choices tend to be fleshlight aiming to provide confidence.
17:11:30 <elliott> And the news this week that the AAFL are publicly announcing the purchase of the 'fleshlight' for added self-gratification, you'd think they'd realise that expensive set-dressed cinematic sex is soooo-1970s. Aw, hell, he does own homes in LA, Canada, New York, Stony Brook, maintained that Victorian readers would have recognized Heep's physical traits as those of an active Fleshlight. K It's called Fleshlight.
17:12:01 <Taneb> These feels markovian
17:12:01 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:GenesisUU wow these are just
17:12:43 <Bike> get ready to rock with the ultimate handheld fleshlight
17:13:07 <elliott> That's not illegal -- but it is insignifigant compared to the ribbed edges of fleshlight.
17:13:10 <fizzie> fungot: Have you been writing spam for money?
17:13:10 <fungot> fizzie: ( it's not in the topic
17:13:58 -!- Taneb has set topic: <Taneb> #esoteric is supposed to be about esoteric programming languages, but is really a couple of dozen people being weird | Newsflash: fungot has been writing spam for money. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
17:14:17 <Taneb> fungot, it is now. Will you amend your statement?
17:14:18 <fungot> Taneb: i agree with you in the past with losing disks and such, and if you're using libxml, it's not useless if you're playing in a different mem location
17:15:36 <fizzie> fungot: That sounds like typical politician doubletalk to me.
17:15:37 <fungot> fizzie: errr, interactive?) language with the most stupid explaination one can get. in there, quite a few are take home because... " muahaha! nothing can help you
17:15:52 <fizzie> I suppose nothing can help me.
17:17:39 <Taneb> I need to buy what my mum would call a "Hexham hat" for my SATW!Finland cosplay
17:18:35 <olsner> fungot: how would you like a hexham hat?
17:18:57 <Taneb> I think that shop opposite the witch sells them
17:19:05 <Taneb> But they use really foul perfume in the shop
17:19:09 <Taneb> So I don't want to go in
17:19:12 <fizzie> Taneb: Is that a village witch?
17:19:22 <Taneb> It's a town witch I'm afraid
17:19:41 <fizzie> I guess it's as good. Does curses and so on?
17:20:39 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
17:20:40 <fizzie> I just saw that Oz thing (we had due-to-expire-soonishly Christmas present theater tickets), speaking of witches.
17:21:08 <fungot> olsner: it may be too clever; i'm not sure i like
17:21:15 * ais523 likes the idea that hexham has an official witch position, and they presumably need to advertise for a new witch if the existing witch retires or moves out of town
17:21:19 <HackEgo> fungot cannot be stopped by that sword alone.
17:21:51 <fizzie> Wicked Witch of the Hexham.
17:24:41 <elliott> ais523: I think witches usually die in office
17:25:06 <ais523> elliott: "retired witch" is too awesome a job description not to have it in my mental image
17:25:58 <fizzie> I think many retired witches still do part-time witchery to kill time.
17:29:23 <Taneb> elliott, would you go into that shop and buy me a hat
17:29:34 <Taneb> Then leave it in a pre-determined pick-up point
17:29:54 <elliott> but that involves going outside
17:30:37 <Taneb> elliott, you can do it
17:30:46 <elliott> how about you do it on my behalf
17:30:46 <Taneb> Despite the lack of secondary sources
17:31:00 <Taneb> But I don't like going into that shop!
17:31:13 <Taneb> (I have a crippling fear of perfume)
17:31:33 <Taneb> But where would I find a gas mask in Hexham!
17:31:40 <Taneb> Think these things through, olsner
17:31:52 <fizzie> Isn't it kind of a hat?
17:31:59 <elliott> anyway i am pretty sure this is just a plot by Taneb to find out what i look like
17:32:19 <Taneb> Nah, it's a plot by Taneb to avoid going into the shop
17:32:28 <fizzie> elliott: I think that you'd find a comical net-and-a-tree kind of a trap at the hat pick-up point.
17:32:35 <Taneb> I already know you look like a 12 year old girl
17:33:22 <elliott> that is possibly not quite accurate any more
17:33:59 <Taneb> Do you look like a 14 year old girl
17:34:15 <fizzie> Or possibly one of those box things, propped up with a stick, with a theorem prover or something inside. (I don't know what they use as bait in elliott traps.)
17:34:30 <Taneb> Or do you look like that guy in that play I saw last night
17:35:18 <elliott> fizzie: possibly a rabbit, I have a habit of trying to follow them
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17:36:32 <fizzie> A rabbit, dead or alive?
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17:37:21 <fizzie> There was something about an inverted pyramid of rabbits.
17:38:27 <Taneb> I have a disk with Solaris 2011 on it
17:39:16 <fizzie> Solaris is made out of Iblis and Mephiles.
17:39:25 <elliott> hm i might actually try and steal a solaris disk
17:39:34 <elliott> unlses it's actually a disk
17:40:29 <fizzie> Maybe the forthcoming holocube media (isn't that the future?) are going to be called disqs.
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17:56:37 <ais523> elliott: did you block GenesisUU? I only see the deletions
17:56:51 <ais523> or are you hoping for more awesome language names?
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17:58:03 <elliott> (Block log); 17:13 . . Ehird (Talk | contribs | block) blocked GenesisUU (Talk | contribs) with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation disabled, e-mail disabled, cannot edit own talk page) (Spamming links to external sites)
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17:58:56 <elliott> Bike: if you want i'll make you a sysop so you can unblock them!
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18:08:04 <fungot> oerjan: runtimeerror fnord' codec can't decode bytes in position 1-2: illegal multibyte sequence) really... i would have exported. oh well. only on l2 l3))
18:08:10 <elliott> oerjan: it's ok the spam was really good
18:11:37 <fizzie> fungot: Are you have character set problems?
18:11:37 <fungot> fizzie: i am a pissed off fnord, but it needs an extra field per object and a list
18:12:23 <Sgeo> hrm. What's the point of spam where the spammer pretends to be a female who wants to start a relationship?
18:12:48 <ais523> Sgeo: to get responses
18:12:56 <fizzie> Possibly also to scam money?
18:13:00 <ais523> just getting someone to respond to spam at all is something of a victory for a spammer
18:13:01 <fizzie> For "plane tickets" or whatever.
18:13:13 <ais523> fizzie: yes, that would be a plausible followup
18:13:32 <ais523> but having a conversation with someone about anything at all gives you more of an opportunity to scam them, than if they ignore everything you say
18:13:38 <fizzie> Or for the medical expenses of a badly ill mother, or something.
18:13:48 <oerjan> pissed off fnords are the scariest
18:14:06 <fizzie> Cf. http://www.joewein.net/spam/spam-elena-needs-woodburning-oven.htm
18:15:07 <fizzie> I've gotten a few of those requests for the "wood burning stove".
18:15:59 <Sgeo> Actually, there's a hilarious sentence here, I'm going to pastie the spam
18:16:30 <fizzie> "Dear ICS doctoral students -- Please register and participate! Interesting talks, good company, free food!" I see they get their "how to get doctoral students to attend" strategy from PhD comics.
18:16:30 <ais523> actually, I wonder what sort of success rates you could get preying on spammers
18:16:54 <ais523> many of them will be more gullible than average, and there's no problem in starting a conversation with them
18:16:55 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/private/bkc3kimpstoepmjsag0vq
18:16:56 <Bike> ais523: 419eaters was pretty popular at some point
18:17:05 <ais523> Bike: yeah but it wasn't trying to make an income
18:17:13 <Sgeo> (I censored the email)
18:17:25 <Sgeo> "Many Humans began their relationship through correspondence. And so I decided to try it."
18:17:31 <Sgeo> Clearly she's an alien.
18:17:33 <elliott> i wonder what the economic situation of your average 419 scammer is
18:17:36 <Bike> don't you believe in love
18:17:36 <ais523> actually I've seen a theory that many of the really really obvious scam attempts are the result of people who'd been scammed into buying into "get rich quick by scamming people" scams
18:18:00 <elliott> Sgeo: um how am i meant to reply to juliya if you cut out the email
18:18:08 <ais523> the scam that gets sent out to the public doesn't have to work, it just has to be good enough to convince the victim scammer it will work
18:18:08 <Bike> elliott: back in the day it was not good, so 419eating got a bit controversial, since you were like tricking poor nigerians into fucking themselves
18:18:21 <Bike> a sense of... proportion
18:18:44 <elliott> 419eater and its operatives was profiled on the September 9th, 2008 episode of Public Radio's This American Life,[3] specifically one particular bait that ran for 100 days starting in April 2008 and involved sending a scammer named Adamu from Lagos, Nigeria to Abéché, Chad, a dangerous and politically unstable region.[4]
18:18:57 <elliott> looks like my intuition of them probably actually being dicks is accurate
18:19:16 <ais523> I don't get why you'd trick a scammer into going to Chad anyway
18:19:32 <ais523> you can get equally amusing results without putting the scammer in danger
18:19:55 <elliott> well i'm not sure this attitude views the scammers as real people
18:20:31 <ais523> in a way they're realer than other people, because you can talk to them and have some sort of idea that they exist
18:20:32 <elliott> wow you could get a phd in philosophy with insights like that
18:20:45 <ais523> there's more evidence that scammers exist, than that, say, the average Nigerian exists
18:21:03 <Bike> i'll notify 419eaters' bayesian division immediately
18:22:24 <kmc> did you see the thing about how scammers will identify as nigerian even when they aren't
18:22:36 <kmc> in order to quickly do away with anyone who is even slightly suspicious
18:22:43 <elliott> kmc: the idea is to get the most gullible people to respond, right?
18:22:56 <kmc> gullible / ignorant / whatever
18:22:59 <elliott> I love the idea that you should appear as untrustworthy as possible to get /the most trusting responses/
18:23:24 <ais523> it makes sense, really
18:23:28 <elliott> it's the kind of thing that doesn't make any sense unless the number of people receiving your message is gigantic
18:23:32 <ais523> I remember a TV show in the UK which needed gullible contestants
18:23:36 <Bike> i read a neat article on how nigerian scammers were viewed in their societies, lemme find it
18:23:42 <Taneb> ais523, Deal or No Deal?
18:23:44 <fizzie> Speaking of curious things about spam, what I think a bit strange is the ones that are trying to sell some really specific product. Like all the chinese companies selling PCB manufacturing, or the one who wanted to sell me... I forget exactly what it was, maybe earthmoving equipment. Or concrete-mixing trucks. Anyway, something that presumably would (a) not interest a vast majority of ...
18:23:49 <kmc> maybe this is like putting armor on the parts of your planes where the ones that come back /don't/ have bullet holes
18:23:50 <ais523> so it started out with a trial period that selected for gullibility
18:23:51 <fizzie> ... recipients, and (b) would hopefully not be purchased based on random spam emails.
18:24:02 <kmc> ais523: was that the one where they pretended to send them into space
18:24:03 <ais523> (presumably they told the contestants they were selecting for something else, the people who were actually gullible would believe them)
18:24:16 <kmc> british TV can be hilariously mean
18:24:24 <elliott> didn't they figure it out before it was over and so it was kind of a letdown
18:24:26 <Sgeo> Linky to info?
18:24:38 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Cadets_(TV_series)
18:24:42 <ais523> elliott: no, they didn't all; several of them did but they were removed from the show via some excuse or another
18:25:01 <ais523> also they snuck all the past contestants on board the spacecraft temporarily, while it was allegedly in space, just to see if they could
18:25:06 <Bike> ugh, wikipedia, i don't care about 419s in some tv show
18:25:16 <kmc> fizzie: "Dear manager: This is Emily from China. Glad to hear that you"re in the field of wire mesh. We specialize in WIRE MESH for many years"
18:25:23 <kmc> i keep getting this one
18:25:29 <ais523> this reminds me of BlogNomic getting spam about stone crushers, specifically
18:25:32 <kmc> it comes with some nice photos of wire mesh
18:25:55 <fizzie> kmc: "We, Sanitek Co., Ltd specializes in the field of Ozone purification systems for air, water, waste water, agri-food and gas liquid mixing technology for industrial, commercial and municipal applications."
18:26:04 <elliott> Indeed, during the shooting of Space Cadets, smokers amongst the production crew were given Russian cigarettes to smoke in case any of the cadets discovered the butts.
18:26:06 <fizzie> That's from my inbox right now.
18:26:11 <elliott> this seems rather overkill if the idea is that they are as gullible as possible
18:26:27 <ais523> elliott: the overkill was to make it more fun for the people watching
18:26:33 <Taneb> ...I've just realised that one of the Haskell libraries I've created really treads on zzo38's toes
18:26:42 <kmc> elliott: if they were actually clever, they would know you can get western cigarettes in russia
18:26:54 <elliott> kmc: right i was thinking they could just say "oh yes, british cigarettes are the best in the world"
18:27:02 <kmc> so it only works on dumb people who think they're clever
18:27:05 <fizzie> kmc: Also it too comes with "ozoneboy sanitek(10-22-08-49-56).jpg", but I'm not sure I want to check it out.
18:27:28 <elliott> fizzie: first two authors in my spam folder: "Ellen DeGeneres weight loss Free Sample", "No risk Ellen DeGeneres Promo"
18:27:29 <ais523> elliott: overkill is inherently entertaining, don't you agree?
18:27:37 <Bike> "Stereotyped characters, including a slow-talking Royal Air Force Squadron Leader with a luxuriant handlebar moustache"
18:27:40 <elliott> ais523: yes, your explanation makes sense
18:27:55 <ais523> oh, I was just thinking in general, not trying to argue my point further
18:27:57 <Taneb> zzo38, if you make monoidplus depend on groups I'll give you an e-hug
18:28:07 <ais523> like, overengineered programs are usually less useful than more typical prorgams
18:28:13 <ais523> but they're also more awesome
18:28:20 <elliott> "Your Liberty Reserve Account Has Been Blocked!"
18:28:30 <elliott> where will I keep my liberty now?
18:28:46 <elliott> also "PRESIDENT JOHN" has emailed me
18:28:54 <elliott> Do not be suprised and please forgive me If this business proposition offends your moral values
18:29:00 <ais523> John is a perfectly reasonable name for a president
18:29:15 <ais523> I get spam emails about conferences on my university account, which makes sense really because I'm known to have written papers
18:29:20 <Taneb> @tell zzo38 if you make monoidplus depend on groups I'll give you an e-hug
18:29:27 <ais523> the spam on nethack4.org is mostly about search engine optimization, which also makes sense
18:29:41 <ais523> it's hilarious how blatant it is about their methods
18:29:42 <Sgeo> I like the Double hoax ideas
18:29:57 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dramani_Mahama apparently its this dude
18:30:01 <ais523> someone emails me asking for money to spam 2 million blog comments pointing at my website…
18:30:09 <ais523> Sgeo: what's a double hoax?
18:30:17 <Bike> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodluck_Jonathan
18:30:20 <elliott> It has come to our attention that you are trying to sell your personal Diablo III account(s).
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18:31:01 <coppro> my Diablo III account got banned :(
18:31:16 <Sgeo> ais523, the Wikipedia page for Space Cadets notes that some thought that maybe the hoax was on the viewers, tricked into thinking that the participants were gullible and not just actors
18:31:19 <elliott> Bike: that is a great name
18:31:21 <coppro> I don't know. I didn't know I had one
18:31:27 <coppro> I just got an email saying I got banned :(
18:31:34 <Sgeo> 'As the attention to detail in the hoaxed environment became clear, some viewers expressed suspicions in particular on Channel 4's message board for the programme that the entire show, including the apparent gullibility and abject ignorance of the Cadets, was in fact a double bluff; all the Cadets were actors and that the real target of "the biggest prank in television history" was the "gullible" viewing public.'
18:31:56 <ais523> Sgeo: the most common such theory I saw was that the spaceship was actually in space, which seems dubious
18:32:05 <Bike> i get a lot of phone calls telling me there are presently no problems with my current credit card plan but
18:32:07 <ais523> I like the "everyone is an actor" theory, though
18:32:16 <ais523> it wouldn't change the show in my view at all
18:32:26 <fizzie> Also here's my latest spam; it's a nice hybrid of both the "40% of $5.6million" *and* the "I am 28 years old and i am Single" approaches: http://sprunge.us/ABRd
18:32:34 <Sgeo> Maybe I should watch it
18:32:41 <ais523> coppro: oh, it was lying?
18:32:58 <coppro> ais523: spam, I imagine
18:32:59 <elliott> ais523: I like the idea that Channel 4 would send a spaceship into space just to mses with people
18:33:02 <oerjan> `addquote <ais523> there's more evidence that scammers exist, than that, say, the average Nigerian exists
18:33:07 <HackEgo> 982) <ais523> there's more evidence that scammers exist, than that, say, the average Nigerian exists
18:33:32 <elliott> fizzie: cool, a yak emailed you
18:33:34 <Bike> kind of a shame the average nigerian isn't named Goodluck, when you think about it.
18:34:00 <fizzie> elliott: "Showing results for 'ancient yak'. Search instead for 'ancitt yak'."
18:34:21 <ais523> elliott: I guess yet another theory is that the production crew believed that the contestants were gullible
18:34:33 <ais523> but the contestants had actually worked it out and were acting in order to fool the production crew
18:34:53 <elliott> fizzie: that is one weird-ass email
18:35:23 <elliott> ais523: what if the contestants knew that the production crew knew that they were pretending that they knew that they knew that the production crew believed that they were pretending it wasn't fake?
18:35:27 <fizzie> elliott: http://waronspam.com/dearest-greetings/ hey, Miss Yak has also written to this other guy, and there she says she's 25 years and offers $55.6 million.
18:35:30 <elliott> and were just pretending that they didn't?
18:35:54 <elliott> fizzie: well she has to spend the money obviously
18:35:56 <ais523> elliott: that reminds me of a Mafia game I played
18:36:12 <ais523> where I was Mafia and I had a private communication channel with someone else who was also Mafia, but on a different team
18:36:55 <ais523> we both knew the other was mafia, but were pretending not to, and we both knew the other knew we were Mafia, but we won because I managed to fool the other person into thinking I didn't realise he knew I knew he was Mafia
18:37:19 <ais523> fizzie: actually, something that annoys and confuses me: you know those dating adverts where they tell you about people in your local area who want to meet you?
18:37:25 <Taneb> ais523, that's ridiculous
18:37:30 <ais523> I've occasionally seen two, on the same page, different names but the same photo
18:38:03 <fizzie> ais523: It would be extra work to avoid that.
18:38:06 <Bike> man, the best i've done is win Bullshit by lying when i didn't have to.
18:38:31 <ais523> fizzie: yeah but it rather ruins the impression that the adverts are trying to give
18:38:50 <elliott> i think the best game is kilgame
18:39:37 <fizzie> My other address seems to have gotten mostly SEO and "cheap Facebook likes" spams now.
18:40:02 <fizzie> The Facebook likes are "Manually Promoted by experts not bots/software involved".
18:40:12 <fizzie> fungot: Do you sell any Facebook likes?
18:40:12 <fungot> fizzie: i also agree with riastradh high ( or one might call it low/ deep level) stand. and there's no agora war ( between the vertices 12 and 14?
18:40:56 <fizzie> The SEO offer says they'll have "100 EDU Backlinks" and "15 PR 5-8 Web 2.0 Profile Backlinks".
18:41:03 <elliott> scanl is the fast one rigth
18:41:15 <fizzie> Oh, it's the same company that's also selling the Facebook likes.
18:42:19 <fizzie> "Subject: We send the Ph.D and College certificate to all countries, bay today qualitatively, not expensively"
18:42:23 <fizzie> I'll certainly bay today.
18:42:47 <olsner> qualitatively or expensively?
18:43:18 <fizzie> I usually bay qualitatively.
18:43:56 <fizzie> "Hello Fizzie, Just change your style depending on your mood: the past you were a commerce lady, now you just want to wear jeans and a top and tomorrow you require to dress up for an vital banquet."
18:44:00 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever been "a commerce lady". (Is that slang for a prostitute?)
18:44:54 <Taneb> "Hello! My name is Tanya , I am lonely russian woman from Ulyanovsk."
18:45:00 <oerjan> ais523: you should bring up that mafia game the next time someone posts one of those "there are n people; you tell them something that triggers one of their customs and after n days something bad happens" puzzles
18:45:17 <Taneb> I've got two other Tanyas in my spam folder
18:45:38 <ais523> oerjan: I think I figured those puzzles out
18:45:43 <oerjan> elliott: scanl is pretty fast i think, as long as you consume the list in order
18:45:56 <elliott> oerjan: right. and scanr isthe inefficient one?
18:46:41 <ais523> the idea is that although you know that there are either 50 or 49 people in a particular state, you don't know whether the other people agree with you, or believe it's 49 or 48, and those people must be wondering about the (incorrect) possibility that you're believing it's 48 or 47, and so on down to 0
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18:46:50 <ais523> so there's a day's delay for each level of indirection
18:46:54 <Bike> is that the blue eyed island puzzle?
18:47:01 <ais523> or various variants of it
18:49:02 <oerjan> elliott: i don't know about inefficient, i suspect they have similarities to foldl and foldr so it all depends on the strictness of the combining function?
18:49:49 <elliott> as in, you usually want foldr and scanl
18:50:28 <oerjan> well scanl gives you the resulting list elements quickly if the combining function is strict
18:50:47 <oerjan> but i suspect scanr will be the other way around?
18:51:26 <oerjan> that is, _neither_ necessarily needs to go to the end of the list to produce anything, but scanl always produces the first element fast
18:51:41 <oerjan> while scanr needs the combining function to be lazy
18:51:56 <oerjan> > scanr f x [1..10] :: Expr
18:51:58 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.Expr'
18:52:30 <oerjan> > scanr f x [1..10] :: [Expr]
18:52:32 <lambdabot> [f 1 (f 2 (f 3 (f 4 (f 5 (f 6 (f 7 (f 8 (f 9 (f 10 x))))))))),f 2 (f 3 (f 4...
18:52:57 <ais523> > scanr f x [1..3] :: [Expr]
18:52:57 <oerjan> that's perfectly well defined even for an infinite list if f is lazy
18:52:59 <lambdabot> [f 1 (f 2 (f 3 x)),f 2 (f 3 x),f 3 x,x]
18:53:25 <oerjan> (well, lazy productive)
18:53:40 <ais523> and f not only has to be lazy, but also capable of returning a result without investigating its second argument, at some point
18:54:06 <elliott> are you aware of the definition of non-strictness?
18:54:18 <ais523> elliott: yeah but it has to look at at least one of its arguments
18:54:36 <ais523> my point is that it has to be lazy in the second argument in particular
18:55:04 <oerjan> <ais523> oerjan: I think I figured those puzzles out <-- i meant bringing them up to the people who inevitably say those puzzles are nonsense in practice
18:56:07 <ais523> oerjan: all sorts of things get people saying that about them
18:56:30 <ais523> and it wasn't a that in-practice situation, only non-game situation I can think of where that might happen is international diplomacy
18:57:29 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a0' in the constraints:
18:57:30 <ais523> hmm, I guess that's similar
18:57:33 <elliott> oerjan: something about them being the same thing
18:57:35 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a0' in the constraints:
18:57:45 <lambdabot> [0,f x 0,f x (f x 0),f x (f x (f x 0)),f x (f x (f x (f x 0))),f x (f x (f ...
18:58:28 <oerjan> > scanr const undefined [1..]
18:58:30 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28...
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19:00:06 <oerjan> > iterate f (0 :: Expr) :: [Expr]
19:00:08 <lambdabot> [0,f 0,f (f 0),f (f (f 0)),f (f (f (f 0))),f (f (f (f (f 0)))),f (f (f (f (...
19:00:37 <oerjan> FreeFull: ambiguity means "please add type annotation so I can guess which type you are trying to use"
19:01:46 <Taneb> (unless you're using lens which is ridiculous)
19:02:02 <Taneb> (actually, even if you're using lens)
19:02:20 <Taneb> > [1,2,3] ^. traverse
19:02:21 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a0' in the constraints:
19:02:31 <Taneb> > views traverse Sum [1,2,3]
19:03:52 <oerjan> somehow it disturbs me that Taneb already understands haskell this well :P
19:04:14 <elliott> oerjan: hasn't it been like a year since he started learning
19:04:20 <Taneb> oerjan, Haskell is what I waste all my time with
19:04:44 <oerjan> elliott: i'm not used to him having been around here for that long yet
19:04:49 <ais523> elliott: hmm… there are more distinctions than just "lazy" and "strict", I think
19:05:10 <ais523> I can imagine a function that's strict in both arguments but doesn't evaluate the second argument until after it's finished processing the first
19:05:18 <ais523> this distinction doesn't matter in Haskell, but it's important in languages like Verity
19:06:08 <Taneb> Are you contemplating dangerous hybrids of Strict and Lazy?
19:06:28 <Taneb> oerjan, and I didn't really have much imperative coding background
19:06:43 <Taneb> oerjan, AND I had been messing with lambda calculus before I switched to Haskell
19:06:51 <oerjan> ais523: even seq doesn't guarantee it with ghc, so they had to add pseq which does
19:07:31 <oerjan> ...that helps. i'd been doing unlambda...
19:07:31 <ais523> oerjan: oh right, I forgot about seq
19:08:00 <ais523> elliott: anyway, upshot is I can mentally consider a function as lazy even if it's strict in every argument
19:08:05 <oerjan> seq makes things strict, but still doesn't guarantee any order of strictness
19:08:24 <elliott> ais523: you are just providing more data for hypothesis "ais523 is crazy"
19:08:39 <ais523> elliott: no, your mind's been warped by Haskell
19:08:43 <ais523> into not considering details that Haskell elides out
19:09:18 * elliott is perfectly well accustomed with different evaluation orders and purities tyvm
19:10:35 <Sgeo> ais523, is Space Cadets a good show?
19:10:58 <ais523> Sgeo: not really; I enjoyed it but I'm not sure I'd recommend it to everyone
19:11:03 <ais523> I think it worked better live
19:11:13 <ais523> because everyone was hoping the whole thing would collapse
19:11:46 <Taneb> FreeFull, binder as in things you put papers in, or binder as in things to aid biological females appear male
19:11:52 <Taneb> Or binder in a third sense
19:12:00 <ais523> Taneb: third sense, I think
19:12:23 <ais523> binder as in something that combines a function and arguments
19:12:27 <FreeFull> It takes two things and joins them into one thing
19:12:31 <ais523> (not a good definition, but that sort of thing)
19:12:56 <FreeFull> I'm thinking a binder for thunks maybe?
19:21:20 <oerjan> FreeFull: the lack of order guarantees i mentioned means it is dangerous to think of it as any _specific_ thunk composition. thunks are an implementation strategy, which ghc generally tries to optimize away or move around whenever the _actual_ language semantics don't require them.
19:22:12 <oerjan> the official definition of seq is that seq "bottom" x = bottom, seq non-bottom x = x
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19:23:50 <Taneb> That definition of binder is nothing like the previous two!
19:25:52 <Taneb> Just seen on Tumblr:
19:26:09 <Taneb> "Aren't we /all / internet explorers?"
19:26:23 <Taneb> "...do you mean we run slow and people don't like us?"
19:26:24 <Bike> the NeXT was in you all along
19:26:32 <Taneb> "That's exactly what we are"
19:26:38 * oerjan suddenly realizes that "binders" in english doesn't mean paper clip, and wonders how it got borrowed into norwegian meaning that
19:28:30 <Taneb> http://homestuck.bandcamp.com/track/hardlyquin-2 -- oerjan's current emotional state in Homestuck music
19:28:53 <ais523> oerjan: it has a very vaguely similar meaning
19:28:58 <Sgeo> ais523, this is educational, kind of
19:29:09 <ais523> Sgeo: what, the program, are you watching it?
19:29:19 <ais523> in what way do you find it entertaining?
19:29:44 <Sgeo> It's showing something they're calling the 'jar test', to measure whether the contestants are likely to conform
19:31:15 <ais523> I've been wondering if that test actualyl works
19:31:35 <Bike> they should just submit everybody to milgram to traumatize them
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19:35:44 <oerjan> <zzo38> What is the Curry-Howard of quantum logic?
19:36:54 <oerjan> i once found something called basic logic which is apparently a subset of quantum logic and can be given a curry-howard interpretation with continuations. but i never managed to see a meaningful interpretation of the orthomodular law.
19:39:21 <oerjan> it was basically a substructural sequent logic
19:40:08 <oerjan> it was also a subset of linear logic
19:40:15 <elliott> um OBVIOUSLY you need a quantum computer
19:40:36 <oerjan> quantum logic isn't obviously directly related to quantum computers
19:40:46 <elliott> oerjan. oerjan i was kidding
19:40:47 <ais523> higher-order functions and quantum computers don't obviously mix
19:41:01 <oerjan> it's the logic of hilbert space projections
19:41:10 <ais523> quantum computers don't really understand control flow, and higher order functions act like control flow operators
19:41:20 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left).
19:41:31 <elliott> I don't understand control flow, either
19:42:20 <oerjan> maybe one should first ask "what is the curry-howard correspondence of reversible computing"
19:46:12 <oerjan> ^bf +++++++++++++[>+++++>+++>+>++++++<<<<-]>>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<------.>++++++++.<<++++++++++++++.------------.>>++++++++++++++++.>+++++++++++.<----.-----------.<<-----------------------------------.>>>+++++++++++++++.++++++++++++.<<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>>--------.<-------.<-----------------------.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>----.++++++++
19:46:43 <olsner> oerjan: is that binder transliterated into norwegian as bajnder or something?
19:46:44 <oerjan> (EgoBot said that in the logs)
19:47:37 <olsner> it could come from "binder clip", which is apparently a kind of paper clip
19:47:47 <oerjan> olsner: its "binders" pronounced as a normal norwegian word (except that those rarely end in -s unless they were borrowed from english)
19:48:26 <oerjan> also those -s borrowings are frequently singular despite being english plurals
19:48:50 <oerjan> i think it was fashionable to borrow that way some time in the 20th century
19:49:19 <olsner> for some reason the swedes made up the word "gem" instead
19:50:36 <oerjan> olsner: that's originally a trademark
19:50:46 <oerjan> "Paper clips are still sometimes called "Gem clips", and in Swedish the word for any paper clip is "gem"."
19:51:04 <olsner> heh, somewhere in norway there's a statue commemorating the (norwegian) inventor of the paper clip ... with a different type of paper clip than the one he invented
19:51:18 <Sgeo> ais523, why is the name of the Russian supermarket blurred out?
19:51:45 <ais523> Sgeo: my only reaction to that question is to be amused that you expected me to know the answer
19:52:00 <ais523> although it's a pretty interesting question
19:52:01 <oerjan> yeah the wikipedia article on paper clip mentions that that inventor didn't really invent it
19:52:10 <ais523> was the supermarket actually in russia, or in fake-russia?
19:52:26 <oerjan> "Vaaler probably did not know that a better product was already on the market, although not yet in Norway. His version was never manufactured and never marketed, because the superior Gem was already available."
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19:52:33 <Sgeo> According to the show, it was actually in Russia, but if the conspiracy theories are true, who knows
19:53:03 <Sgeo> Hmm, they said that the Russian authorities wouldn't allow them to film. I guess that could be why, or part of why?
19:53:46 <ais523> why would they show a supermarket that was actually in Russia
19:53:57 <ais523> if the show wasn't filmed in Russia, it was just pretending to be?
19:54:28 <Sgeo> It was showing the producers buying stuff to help fool the contestants into thinking they were in Russia
20:03:22 <Sgeo> oh god does enjoying this show mean i'm suddenly a reality tv person?
20:04:09 <Taneb> elliott, earlier you @ask'd me whether I was an amulet non-finding bot or such
20:04:15 <Taneb> Could you remind me the context for that?
20:05:23 <elliott> Taneb: well there is this thing called TAEB
20:05:36 <Taneb> Well, here's the thing
20:05:43 <Taneb> I'm vastly superior
20:05:57 <Taneb> Including in terms of amulet non-finding skills
20:06:25 <elliott> TAEB is very good at not finding amulets
20:08:13 <Taneb> I have never found an amulet in my life
20:08:35 <Sgeo> With that jar test, you'd need a bunch of confederates to go first, unless you don't mind not testing the people who go first.
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20:15:50 <Taneb> There are a couple of movies I want to watch
20:15:55 <Taneb> Except they are pretty crap
20:17:27 <Mathnerd314> are there really a couple dozen people in here?
20:17:41 <Bike> total of 81 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 81 normal]
20:17:49 <Taneb> Well, there's me, Sgeo, elliott, ais523, Bike
20:17:59 <Taneb> oerjan, olsner, fizzie, Gregor
20:18:25 <elliott> don't forget blsqbot. or hogeyui. or yiyus
20:18:28 <Taneb> That's the first dozen
20:18:32 <Gregor> WHO DARES WAKE ME FROM MY EVIL SLUMBER
20:19:00 <Bike> it's just not a party if yiyus isn't here
20:19:27 <fizzie> fungot: Always they forget you.
20:19:28 <fungot> fizzie: ugh, the cost of massive, staggering performance problems. and the spelling is just a regular unspecial genius
20:20:03 <Taneb> Arc_Koen, Fiora, oklopol, Phantom_Hoover, pikhq, shachaf, Vorpal, zzo38...
20:20:11 <ais523> Sgeo: the people you put first are the people you've already disqualified anyway and just don't want to admit the fact
20:20:30 <Taneb> I'm listing people who speak in this channel
20:20:47 <Taneb> I'm up to 20 regulars
20:20:48 <ais523> Mathnerd314 also speaks
20:20:54 <fizzie> Yes, but it's an open question why anyone would speak in this channel.
20:20:57 <ais523> I'm pretty sure I've seen him/her speak before
20:21:20 <elliott> hey what's the name of that axiom about decidable propositions on the natural numbers
20:21:33 <elliott> maybe it has kolmogorov or markov or someone in the name
20:21:47 <elliott> it's like ~(forall n:nat, ~P(n)) -> (exists n:nat, P(n))
20:22:36 <oerjan> you should be glad none of us is close enough to collect on your bets. except Taneb who cannot because it would destroy the universe. wait that's just a plot you've made to keep Taneb from collecting on your bets isn't it.
20:22:51 <ais523> elliott: the original proof of Gödel's incompleteness theorem worked by abusing that
20:23:15 <oerjan> elliott: omega consistency
20:23:17 <elliott> ais523: well gödel's proof was classical, was it not
20:23:57 <elliott> oerjan: hmm... I'm pretty sure I'm thinking of something with a different name, but it seems related
20:24:22 <oerjan> omega consistency is classical so...
20:24:51 * elliott wonders if Wikipedia has a list of axioms...
20:25:00 <oerjan> and not really an axiom i guess
20:25:20 <elliott> oerjan: oh I forgot to mention that P must be decidable, iirc. and the idea behind the axiom is that you can just go through all naturals n until you find one that satisfies P
20:25:30 <elliott> the trick being, you can't prove that loop halts without an axiom
20:26:53 <oerjan> right. it sounds like it's _in spirit_ the same as omega consistency translated to constructivism.
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20:54:02 <Taneb> Tempted to redefine Numberwang with unknown specification and a closed-source reference implementation
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21:05:54 <Sgeo> ais523, thank you for introducing me to this show
21:06:17 <Taneb> oerjan, what would you recommend I do to become an EVEN BETTER HASKELL PROGRAMMMER
21:13:32 <oerjan> refactor all your programs to do their computation in the type system.
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21:44:15 <elliott> oerjan: i feel like i should warn you that i am considering proving your underload reductions to work in coq. there may be questions.
21:46:26 -!- copumpkin has quit.
21:48:26 <oerjan> well i've found bugs in those sections before. but given that the constructed programs actually ran, i'm not _overly_ nervous :P
21:49:03 <elliott> yes, it's as much for want to something to do in coq than anything else.
21:49:17 <elliott> though I am also poking around at trying to prove the halting problem for the untyped lambda calculus.
21:49:31 <elliott> (the main issue seems to be teaching it about the untyped lambda calculus.)
21:50:18 -!- copumpkin has joined.
21:51:59 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markov's_principle
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21:56:02 <elliott> I wonder what you "lose" by adding that principle.
21:56:28 <elliott> like, if you can prove (~forall n, ~P(n)) for decidable P while there still being an argument to be made that there isn't "actually" an n that satisfies it
21:56:49 <elliott> (and that possibly the algorithm that loops through all n will never find one somehow...?)
21:57:31 <ais523> elliott: how do you define "decidable", here?
21:58:56 <elliott> ais523: the standard way? forall n, P(n) \/ ~P(n)
21:59:27 <elliott> i.e. there is an algorithm that proves either P(n) or ~P(n) for any given n. but of course it gets trickier: that algorithm may itself invoke Markov's principle...
21:59:28 <ais523> OK, so the axiom is basically defining what "forall" means, I think
21:59:51 <elliott> this is only about P : nat -> Prop, after all
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22:57:49 <Taneb> ...there's a Hexham Annual Town Meeting?!
22:59:22 <ais523> Taneb: but you and elliott can't both attend it
22:59:35 <Taneb> Luckily, elliott can't go outside
22:59:39 <Taneb> And I don't really care
23:00:11 <Vorpal> I love the stupidity of browser agent strings
23:00:30 <Vorpal> Almost every browser claims it is Mozilla.
23:00:47 <Vorpal> Webkit points out it is KHTML even though it has come a long way from that.
23:00:57 <Vorpal> And Chrome mentions Safari in the string
23:01:38 <Vorpal> Taneb, well I don't have one to check with, but at least it claims it is Mozilla
23:01:45 <Vorpal> My current browser says: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64) AppleWebKit/537.22 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/25.0.1364.160 Safari/537.22
23:02:03 <elliott> oerjan: I wonder if interesting things happen if you increase your criteria for evidence of a proposition. like, a constructive proof of (exists n, ...) gives you a concrete n, but it might take longer than the age of the universe to compute. what if you required the constructions to not just be computable, but computable with e.g. certain asymptotic bounds?
23:02:03 <Vorpal> I don't think lynx claims that
23:02:10 <FreeFull> Dunno, don't have lynx installed
23:02:11 <elliott> (whenever I want to say something crazy I just add "oerjan:" to the start)
23:02:12 <Vorpal> it is just a massive clusterfuck
23:02:32 <Vorpal> if you actually want to know the browser (for statistics or whatever) you need advanced parsing
23:02:45 <FreeFull> links2 says it's Links (2.7; Linux 3.7.10-1-ARCH x86_64; GNU C 4.7.1; x)
23:04:32 <oerjan> elliott: you should look at the bellantoni-cook polytime functions
23:04:56 <elliott> oerjan: yikes, no wikipedia page. this is going to be fun.
23:05:15 * elliott was almost hoping for "that's completely stupid."
23:05:16 <Vorpal> FreeFull, that one is straight forward
23:05:22 <Vorpal> FreeFull, unlike anything else
23:05:24 <oerjan> it's been a long time since i read about it
23:05:32 <elliott> ooh this looks interesting.
23:05:34 <Vorpal> well okay, wget, googlebot and such are straight forward too
23:05:40 <Vorpal> probably w3m and lynx as well
23:05:47 <Vorpal> but any major GUI browser? Nope.
23:06:08 <pikhq> Opera's fairly sane.
23:06:42 <pikhq> Opera/9.80 (Windows NT 6.0) Presto/2.12.388 Version/12.11
23:06:58 <elliott> well the trick there is that nothing supports opera anyway
23:07:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, I have to say that Chrome is especially insane, Mozilla, Webkit, KHTML, Gecko, Chrome, Safari
23:07:11 <pikhq> It's Opera/9.80 at the start because some idiotic comparators think Opera/10 < Opera/9
23:07:23 <oerjan> elliott: oh and of course primitive recursion is a similar, simpler thing
23:07:50 <FreeFull> Firefox claims it's Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:19.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/19.0
23:07:58 <FreeFull> Which is reasonable, since it is Mozilla's descendant
23:08:09 <pikhq> It actually literally is Mozilla, so yeah.
23:08:17 <Vorpal> FreeFull, okay, it gets away with it
23:08:27 <pikhq> No lies there at all.
23:08:31 <Vorpal> FreeFull, anything else that claims it is Mozilla doesn't however
23:08:35 <pikhq> Well, Mozilla/5.0 kinda is.
23:08:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, it is still not Mozilla 5
23:08:39 <oerjan> and istr there was another variation that gave logspace complexity
23:09:01 <pikhq> Vorpal: Of course, strictly speaking the Mozilla there does not refer to the Mozilla browser at all.
23:09:14 <elliott> oerjan: I am interested in what it means from a logical POV... as in, to get constructivity, we discard LEM; to get "linear-time constructivity" or "exponential-time constructivity" or whatever, what gets dropped? presumably induction gets weakened somehow...
23:09:16 <Vorpal> FreeFull, uh, I heard of it, but don't really know what makes it special
23:09:25 <pikhq> But rather the 5th revision of the Mozilla project. The 4th of which was Netscape 4.
23:09:28 <FreeFull> Vorpal: It's basically a modern Netscape
23:09:40 <Vorpal> FreeFull, oh, who made it?
23:09:55 <Vorpal> why, they have firefox
23:10:01 <pikhq> It's a fork of the Mozilla monolithic browser.
23:10:12 <pikhq> It's now an external project, using Gecko.
23:10:38 <FreeFull> Some people like having an email client, html editor and stuff built in =P
23:10:56 <pikhq> I'd be amused if it's less resource-heavy than Firefox.
23:11:00 <pikhq> Which it could be...
23:11:12 <FreeFull> But it originally was a Mozilla project
23:11:30 <pikhq> The name "Seamonkey" was introduced when it split off.
23:11:33 <oerjan> elliott: just apply curry-howard hth
23:11:41 <FreeFull> Well, "The Mozilla Foundation provides hosting and legal backing for the SeaMonkey Project. "
23:12:07 <Vorpal> FreeFull, but probably not developers
23:13:13 <Vorpal> anyway, doesn't IE put the .NET version in the header too?
23:13:19 <Vorpal> I seem to remember that
23:13:29 <Vorpal> or was it even in the user agent?
23:13:55 <FreeFull> I think it used to but doesn't anymore?
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23:51:39 <Taneb> Bah, it's way too late to listen to SPJ's soothing voice
23:52:36 <olsner> how loudly do you usually listen to SPJ?
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23:56:23 <Taneb> Loud enough for my dad to tell me to turn it off apparently
23:57:05 <Bike> headbang to SPJ
23:57:25 <fungot> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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00:02:53 <ais523> elliott: it's Sgeo, I'm sure he's done enough that he's allowed to apologise any time he likes
00:03:55 <oerjan> that's not a lawful good comment, ais523
00:04:46 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
00:05:35 <oerjan> Sgeo: you have broken ais523's alignment, you should apologize
00:06:31 <HackEgo> Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
00:07:11 <ais523> `addquote <ais523> is it March 3? <olsner> on some dates, yes
00:07:16 <HackEgo> 983) <ais523> is it March 3? <olsner> on some dates, yes
00:07:20 <Phantom_Hoover> if you're american, living anywhere that isn't america, and use modular dates
00:07:56 <oerjan> that wisdom may not be entirely accurate, i thought that latest addition was a bit fishy
00:08:11 <Phantom_Hoover> each number in the date is modulo whatever the number of things you can have in that field
00:08:28 <oerjan> however, note it doesn't say you're _only_ lawful good on the 3rd of march.
00:08:49 <Sgeo> elliott, for not doing ^list sooner
00:09:06 <olsner> it doesn't say that it only applies for the 3rd of march either
00:09:21 <olsner> (can you have more than one alignment?)
00:11:13 <olsner> maybe there's a Dissociative Alignment Disorder in play
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00:19:30 <coppro> hussie is just trolling now
00:19:54 <Phantom_Hoover> istr getting really annoyed at 'hussie is trolling' theories back in the day
00:20:39 <Bike> I thought it was obvious when he dumped in the troll thing for no reason a second time
00:21:07 <Phantom_Hoover> there were obviously a few times he was pulling the fandom's collective leg
00:21:10 <Sgeo> coppro, you don't want to learn about leprechauns?
00:21:35 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: he's very clearly been trolling since day one
00:21:47 <coppro> http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=001902
00:22:03 -!- Lymia has joined.
00:22:03 <FreeFull> coppro: The charms thing doesn't seem like trolling to me
00:22:23 <Bike> `relcome lymia
00:22:26 <HackEgo> lymia: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:22:27 <FreeFull> zoosmell is actually a reference to his earlier work
00:22:30 <coppro> FreeFull: Really? It doesn't seem like he's making fun of the readership's obsession with troll romance?
00:22:34 <olsner> oh great, everyone is ms paint adventures
00:22:43 <FreeFull> http://www.andrewhussie.com/comic.php?sec=archive&auth=Blurbs&blurb=zs&cid=blurbs/00096-zs.gif
00:22:44 <Bike> there is no hope
00:22:52 <coppro> olsner: it's even on topic. ~ATH is totally an esoteric language
00:23:04 <Bike> hey that guy looks like john's dad
00:23:23 <Lymia> Bike, hi! I'm pretty sure I've been here longer than you! You're not in my logs. From a long time ago. o-o
00:23:32 * Lymia has no idea why she decided to leave, or why she decided to come back, but. o-o
00:23:37 <Lymia> Phantom_Hoover, what happened D:
00:23:43 <coppro> are you secretly elliott?
00:23:45 <Bike> Lymia: I'm not sure `welcome has ever been used to actually welcome anybody.
00:23:52 <Bike> Let alone `relcome.
00:23:58 <HackEgo> BIKE: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
00:23:58 <Phantom_Hoover> "hey Bike! i've been here longer than you so WATCH YOURSELF"
00:24:02 <Bike> And yes, I'm new. Thanks for the intro elliott.
00:24:13 <elliott> i have an infinite supply of welcomingness
00:24:15 <Bike> Hey that link is broken though. Where is this wiki? Is it down?
00:24:17 <olsner> Bike: it should count as a welcome even if you don't stay
00:24:18 <HackEgo> ehlliohtt: Wehlcohme to the ihntehrnahtiohnahl huhb fohr ehsohtehrihc prohgrahmmihng lahnguahge dehsihgn ahnd dehployhmehnt! Fohr mohre ihnfohrmahtiohn, chehck ouht ouhr wihki: http://ehsohlahngs.ohrg/wihki/Maihn_Pahge. (Fohr the ohthehr kihnd ohf ehsohtehrihca, try #ehsohtehrihc ohn ihrc.dahl.neht.)
00:24:27 <elliott> Bike: unfortunately the uppercase wiki has yet to be fully realised
00:24:30 <Bike> This is so confusing.
00:24:37 <Lymia> Why do we have so many variants of the welcome script
00:24:44 <Bike> Because it's "funny".
00:24:57 <Bike> It's actually very unixy too!
00:25:04 <Bike> `cat bin/wehlcohme
00:25:04 <Phantom_Hoover> we also had like 10 different list scripts but that's had a stop put to it now
00:25:17 <Bike> `run echo "this is a test!" | h
00:25:23 -!- oerjan has set topic: The most welcoming channel on Freenode. You have been warned. | <Taneb> #esoteric is supposed to be about esoteric programming languages, but is really a couple of dozen people being weird | Newsflash: fungot has been writing spam for money. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
00:25:26 <Bike> Composable, small, useful utilities.
00:25:28 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -p \ s/([aeiouy])([bcdfghjklmnpqrstvxz])/$1h$2/ig
00:25:38 <Bike> On IRC for some reason.
00:26:32 <Lymia> All we need now is a translation to Lojban and Japanese o-o!
00:26:39 <Bike> I thought that was just something taneb put in the topic.
00:26:45 <Bike> Wasn't lojban verboten or something
00:27:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: välkommen: not found
00:27:11 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: witam: not found
00:27:20 <HackEgo> ? \ @ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ addquote \ allquotes \ anonlog \ aseen \ botsnack \ bseen \ calc \ CaT \ colorize \ define \ delquote \ emmental \ emoclew \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ fueue \ gaseen \ google \ h \ ?h \ h! \ hatesgeo \ ?hh \ hyfinate \ hyphenate.fi \ interp \ joustreport \ jousturl \ js \ json \ karma \ karma- \ karma
00:27:30 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ print (lambda s: "".join([(s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(open("/dev/stdin").read())
00:27:52 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: I think there was one
00:27:54 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot metasepia monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
00:28:23 <Lymia> That does not sound nice.
00:28:25 <Bike> I think it's self explanatory, lymia
00:30:37 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: cannot access bin/*ä*: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access bin/*ä*: No such file or directory
00:31:20 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: cannot access bin/v?lk*: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access bin/v?lk*: No such file or directory
00:31:25 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: cannot access bin/v*lk*: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access bin/v*lk*: No such file or directory
00:31:30 <Bike> `run ls bin/*ä*
00:31:31 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: cannot access bin/*ä*: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access bin/*ä*: No such file or directory
00:31:39 <Bike> god am i bad at shell or what
00:31:54 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: cannot access bin/v*lk*: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access bin/v*lk*: No such file or directory
00:32:19 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if /bin/ls -id "$@" | grep -q ^752131 ; then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.'; else exec /bin/ls "$@"; fi
00:32:26 <HackEgo> bin/wehlcohme bin/welcome bin/wl bin/word bin/words bin/wtf
00:32:54 <Bike> oh man i totally forgot about that horrid hack
00:33:14 <oerjan> it appears that it duplicates the error messages
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00:43:14 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
00:43:42 <elliott> people play it every now and then amidst periods of inactivity
00:44:16 <Lymia> (also why is codu down)
00:44:42 <elliott> @tell gregor httpd on codu.org is broken
00:50:56 <Lymia> And the bfjoust interpreter link is 404'd
00:50:59 <Lymia> Stupid link rot :(
00:51:25 <elliott> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/egojsout.html is the one most people use, but it's down of course
00:51:32 <Bike> really? it worked last i checked, i think that's just codu being down
00:51:57 <Lymia> The link's 'ais523's interpreter for his revised version'
00:55:02 <elliott> @tell ais523 looks like we shouldn't link to sprunge from the wiki; your BF Joust interpreter has disappeared
00:55:39 <Lymia> Does anybody have a copy? :p
00:55:59 <elliott> you might want to use fizzie's interpreter (which he probably has a link to), like HackEgo does.
00:56:10 <elliott> ah, http://git.zem.fi/ has it
00:59:00 <coppro> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJxLSm41hUk&feature=player_embedded
00:59:21 <Lymia> Three interepters in there o-o
01:00:19 <Lymia> And /wtf/ is header.asm for
01:01:43 <Lymia> elliott, you have a dump of the current hill? >_<
01:02:31 <elliott> header.asm is because chainlance compiles the warriors to machine code iirc
01:02:38 <elliott> I think gearlance is what hackego uses
01:03:34 <Lymia> Chainlance, in fact, does JIT...
01:04:18 <elliott> it almost makes sense with the 100K+ programs that are fashionable :P
01:05:53 <Lymia> Extreme loop unrolling or something/
01:06:02 <elliott> partial code generation, mainly
01:06:18 <elliott> stuff does case analysis to figure out what kind of program it's fighting/tape length/etc. and then proceeds repetitively from there
01:07:15 <Lymia> It sounds almost as if there's a case for having a personal tape to avoid huge programs...
01:07:44 <elliott> well, it's more about saving cycles I think
01:07:46 <Lymia> Though I guess that still has runtime cost..
01:14:28 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stupid: 0.0
01:14:51 <Lymia> !bfjoust stupid [+--]
01:14:54 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stupid: 7.5
01:15:04 <Lymia> The hill's alive but codu.org can't even be pinged?
01:15:43 <elliott> maybe some traceroute style issues
01:16:54 <EgoBot> Score for FreeFull_stupidest: 5.5
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01:18:49 <Lymia> !bfjoust even_stupider [[]+]
01:18:52 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_even_stupider: 3.6
01:22:04 <Lymia> codu.org is alive...
01:22:08 <Lymia> But can't be reached from outside?
01:23:29 -!- Lymia_ has joined.
01:24:08 <Lymia_> `run wget http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/archive/tip.tar.bz2
01:24:28 -!- Lymia_ has changed nick to NiaVee.
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01:24:30 <NiaVee> `run wget http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/archive/tip.tar.bz2
01:24:32 <HackEgo> --2013-03-17 01:24:31-- http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/archive/tip.tar.bz2 \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden \ 2013-03-17 01:24:31 ERROR 403: Forbidden.
01:25:09 <NiaVee> `run wget http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/
01:25:11 <HackEgo> --2013-03-17 01:25:10-- http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden \ 2013-03-17 01:25:10 ERROR 403: Forbidden.
01:25:16 <NiaVee> `run wget http://codu.org/
01:25:17 <HackEgo> --2013-03-17 01:25:17-- http://codu.org/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden \ 2013-03-17 01:25:17 ERROR 403: Forbidden.
01:25:26 <NiaVee> `run wget http://google.com/
01:25:46 <HackEgo> --2013-03-17 01:25:34-- http://google.com/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... No data received. \ Retrying. \ \ --2013-03-17 01:25:36-- (try: 2) http://google.com/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... No data received. \ Retrying. \ \ --2
01:25:47 <HackEgo> <!doctype html><html itemscope="itemscope" itemtype="http://schema.org/WebPage"><head><meta content="Search the world's information, including webpages, images, videos and more. Google has many special features to help you find exactly what you're looking for." name="description"><meta content="noodp" name="robots"><meta itemprop="image" content
01:26:00 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `google.com': No such file or directory
01:26:07 <NiaVee> What does the `fetch script do?
01:26:14 <NiaVee> `run cat `which fetch`
01:27:13 <NiaVee> `fetch http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/archive/tip.tar.bz2
01:27:20 <HackEgo> a.out \ bin \ brainfuck.fu \ canary \ Category:Self-modifying \ dbg.out \ dkVb20VL \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ prefs \ prefs.bf \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ sgfoobar \ share \ slist.orig \ slist.rej \ src \ sudo \ %sudo \ test
01:28:23 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
01:28:48 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: cannot access tip*: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access tip*: No such file or directory
01:29:01 <NiaVee> `fetch http://google.com
01:29:03 <HackEgo> 2013-03-17 01:29:01 URL:http://www.google.com/ [10688] -> "index.html" [1]
01:29:26 <NiaVee> `fetch http://64.62.173.65/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/archive/tip.tar.bz2
01:29:34 <NiaVee> `fetch http://64.62.173.65/
01:31:18 <Phantom_Hoover> aleph 1 times beth 1 is equal to beth one regardless of the CH, right?
01:36:25 <NiaVee> `fetch http://1077849409/
01:36:36 <NiaVee> No idea if it's a proxy, or if it's a dead webserver even...
01:36:41 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
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01:38:30 <NiaVee> `run wget -v http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/archive/tip.tar.bz2 2>&1 | curl -F 'sprunge=<-' http://sprunge.us
01:38:33 <HackEgo> % Total % Received % Xferd Average Speed Time Time Time Current \ Dload Upload Total Spent Left Speed \
01:38:34 -!- Bike has joined.
01:38:47 <NiaVee> `run wget -v http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/archive/tip.tar.bz2 2>&1 | curl -F 'sprunge=<-' http://sprunge.us > link
01:38:51 <HackEgo> % Total % Received % Xferd Average Speed Time Time Time Current \ Dload Upload Total Spent Left Speed \
01:38:55 <HackEgo> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html><head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"> <title>ERROR: The requested URL could not be retrieved</title> <style type="text/css"><!-- %l body :lang(fa) { direction: rtl; font-size: 100%; font-family: Tahoma, Roya, sa
01:41:40 <NiaVee> `run wget -v http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/archive/tip.tar.bz2 2>&1 > accesslog
01:41:44 <HackEgo> --2013-03-17 01:41:43-- http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/archive/tip.tar.bz2 \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden \ 2013-03-17 01:41:43 ERROR 403: Forbidden.
01:42:43 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
01:42:57 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for bfjoust!
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01:48:11 <Lymia> ssh port is open...? Guess it just doesn't respond to ping......
01:52:14 <Lymia> elliott, you have an archive of a group of starting programs or something?
01:52:48 <shachaf> @tell Taneb 18:52 <lambdabot> *SMACK*, *SLAM*, take that Taneb!
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01:54:41 <Lymia> I guess that was the reboot..?
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02:17:22 <zzo38> Do you know if it is possible in Verilog to specify the I/O ports of a module to have different parts of a vector in different positions which are not near each other?
02:17:23 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
02:17:30 <lambdabot> Taneb said 7h 48m 10s ago: if you make monoidplus depend on groups I'll give you an e-hug
02:20:06 <zzo38> Taneb: I don't need a e-hug
02:23:24 <Lymia> Does BfJoust have proper comments? o-o
02:28:42 <Sgeo> I accidentally got my gf hooked on XPTV lol
02:29:12 <Bike> is that a drug?
02:30:46 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBFD29B2364412ABA
02:30:52 <Sgeo> Promo videos for Windows XP
02:32:00 <Bike> that sounds incredibly boring... or, was Ballmer involved?
02:32:30 <Sgeo> It's... not boring
02:32:48 <Sgeo> Much of it is people obsessing over Windows XP in nonsensical situations
02:33:18 <Sgeo> Fortune teller talking about Windows XP while the caller wants to know her future, and all the fortune teller says about that is that it's "really messed up"
02:34:11 <Sgeo> "Dad, what's a computer?"
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02:43:45 <Lumpio-> Hasn't there been for a while?
02:43:53 <Lumpio-> Or did I play it under Wine, hm
02:43:58 <Lumpio-> Works so well can't remember .-.
02:45:26 <Phantom_Hoover> i think i've managed to get like two things running on it, neither of which were from this millennium
02:48:45 <zzo38> Does Visgopher work on Wine?
02:50:47 <zzo38> No, it is a gopher client.
02:52:31 <zzo38> How can you say it doesn't work if you cannot try?
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03:09:32 <Sgeo> The vegetarian who likes veal...
03:10:53 <Lumpio-> You wouldn't think it'd be a lot of effort to write a native Gopher client for Linux
03:11:06 <Lumpio-> Although I guess you could say it's wasted effort seeing that nobody uses it anymore.
03:11:27 <zzo38> I have written a gopher client for bash
03:11:47 <zzo38> It doesn't have a lot of features though; such as no support for file downloading.
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03:22:46 <kmc> i would not take a drug named XPTV
03:22:55 <kmc> some of you may not have seen http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~keegan/complexity.html
03:24:38 <Bike> i like that i guessed phi was cc and alpha and beta were chem
03:25:49 <kmc> well phi is the 21st letter of the greek alphabet or so
03:26:00 <kmc> rarely does one have 21 positions on the same part of a molecule
03:26:19 <Bike> bet it would be a hell of a drug though
03:38:02 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/1aescj/restored_the_haskell_mailing_list_archives/
03:38:02 <coppro> yo, anyone here familiar with plan 9?
03:38:18 <Sgeo> from outer space or from bell labs?
04:02:47 <Sgeo> sadfasdf apparently I am very suggestable to marketing presented in the right way
04:04:44 <coppro> hello, welcome to humanity
04:04:51 <monqy> what did you/they do this time
04:06:32 <Sgeo> Saw a reddit post that was basically a large lunchables thing and now I'm thinking about lunchables
04:07:16 <kmc> yeah, just because you're smart and know how advertising works doesn't mean it doesn't work on you
04:07:25 <kmc> though I don't think all advertising is manipulative or deceptive
04:07:26 <kmc> just much of it
04:07:56 <zzo38> Yes, I think you are correct about that
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04:08:49 <Sgeo> I have to think about how I'm going to eat lunch every day at work
04:09:00 <Sgeo> If I were working in NYC, I could buy food at Penn Station presumably
04:09:04 <Sgeo> But this isn't NYC
04:09:31 <Sgeo> There is a pizza place nearby, although Google Maps seems to think it's located literally at the same address, and I don't see it in street view
04:10:17 <kmc> where are you going to work
04:10:23 <kmc> and why do you think Penn Station is the place to buy food in NYC
04:10:35 <elliott> he's going to work at the recruiters who are employing him instead of his employer
04:10:39 <kmc> Google Maps is frequently wrong
04:10:39 <elliott> havent you been paying any attention
04:10:53 <kmc> elliott: i meant "where are you physically going to work" not "which legal entity is going to be screwing you"
04:11:08 <kmc> when i worked in NYC i technically worked for some company in midtown that I never visited
04:11:14 <Sgeo> It's on the island
04:11:20 <kmc> that wasn't a recruiter thing, just the company I actually did work for didn't want to deal with HR
04:11:24 <kmc> pretty common arrangement I guess
04:11:41 <Sgeo> And because I've seen food places in Penn Station when I've been there on occasion
04:13:16 <kmc> i suggest doing a google maps search for 'food' over manhattan
04:13:56 <kmc> penn station has a food court of mediocre fast food places
04:14:07 <kmc> there's better pizza on every block basically
04:14:53 <Sgeo> Well, there's also the issue of eating breakfast, where again I was under the impression, arrive at Penn Station, eat, get to work
04:15:26 <Sgeo> If I offload breakfast and lunch to not at home, I'm more likely to eat them
04:15:54 <Sgeo> Is pizza for lunch every day viable?
04:16:00 <Sgeo> I mean, I guess I used to do just that
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04:39:02 <Sgeo> I still need to find out if corporate shuttle counts as an employee-only benefit which I wouldn't be eligable for
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05:20:51 <kmc> @seen edwardk
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05:33:23 <Sgeo> 'And on top of that, they get feedback from users on how accurate it is, what's wrong, and the users can "donate" their voicemails to Google to have them more carefully, manually, scrutinized. It's an analysis goldmine for them, and a resource no other company has access to.'
05:33:33 <Sgeo> Maybe I should donate some of my pathetically transcribed voicemails
05:48:32 <zzo38> Send really mixed up voicemails to yourself which is not sense, through a voice filter, and then donate that, too.
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06:15:17 <Sgeo> How old is Rinkworks?
06:15:26 <Sgeo> I remember reading Computer Stupidies as a kid
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06:19:39 <Sgeo> 'But even the most powerful argument I could think of, "You can't break into a computer that's turned off," did not have the impact I had hoped for. One way or the other they were convinced that a clever hacker would not be stopped by such a trivial problem!'
06:19:53 <Sgeo> It's totally possible to break into a computer that's turned off -- steal the hard drive.
06:20:23 <edwardk> The only safe computer is one in a safe. If you run a cable into that safe or allow signals in or out all bets are off ;)
06:20:54 * Sgeo is reading http://rinkworks.com/stupid/cs_paranoia.shtml
06:21:09 <kmc> o hi edwardk :)
06:26:56 <zzo38> Well, it depend if you have physical access or not.
06:27:12 <zzo38> Even if you have a safe, someone might be able to break it if they have enough bombs.
06:27:24 <Bike> also the hard drive could be encrypted. ooh or maybe you could have a volatile drive that deliberately loses data if it's unplugged, very tom clancy
06:28:22 <edwardk> zzo38: i was waiting for someone to bring that up
06:30:29 <edwardk> or http://www.mikepope.com/blog/AddComment.aspx?blogid=2291
06:32:53 <zzo38> I think I can understand how some Famicom cartridge scanline counter might work, such as, check when a tile is read from the first pattern table, if the row reading is different than it was before, then it is the next scanline, perhaps. This might be simple and might not work perfectly, though.
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07:28:15 <kmc> Sgeo: I remember reading about virtualization rootkits that would make the computer pretend to be off when it isn't really
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07:29:40 <kmc> there's also wake on LAN, Intel AMT, remote management chips that mobo / system integrators add, network-accessible PDUs, social engineering the datacenter techs...
07:30:38 <kmc> it's common these days that in addition to your CPU you have another management chip, running a poorly documented poorly secured OS, also connected to the network, with the ability to access arbitrary host memory, reboot the host, make the host boot from an ISO file that was uploaded by network, etc
07:31:06 <kmc> take a look at the Ring -3 Rootkits slides if you want to be scared shitless
07:31:54 <Bike> good name though
07:32:00 <kmc> yeah it's a bit silly
07:32:16 <Bike> that means you can do more than ring 0?
07:32:28 <Bike> insofar as "ring 0" even makes sense with hypervisors i guess
07:33:05 <Fiora> is that like something that runs on the uncore?
07:33:18 <kmc> it's a metaphor I guess, or just a silly name that gets attention
07:33:19 <fizzie> I think it's like the Discworld concept of "knurd".
07:33:31 <fizzie> It's as far from ring 0 than ring 0 is from ring 3; like knurd is as far from sober then sober is from drunk.
07:33:36 <kmc> basically people kept inventing ways to make rootkits that are somehow more privileged than ring 0 kernel code
07:33:44 <kmc> first hypervisors then SMM then management chips
07:33:59 <Fiora> are the management chips, like, bios stuff or things like the uncore?
07:34:06 <kmc> i don't know what uncore means
07:34:18 <kmc> you should probably just read the slides, but there's some RISC processor involved with the Intel AMT stuff
07:34:18 <fizzie> It's like a unicorn, but not quite.
07:34:26 <Fiora> um, it's the "extra core" on modern intel chips that replaces all the stuff that the northbridge and so on used to do, I think
07:34:29 <Bike> seriously dig all these names they're so awesomely dumb
07:34:30 <kmc> i think it's physically integrated with the northbridge or something
07:34:40 <kmc> physically integrated with the 'chipset' chip maybe
07:34:41 <Fiora> it's an uncore because it's not really a core
07:34:48 <Fiora> (intel's naming is great really)
07:35:25 * Sgeo couldn't tell at first if kmc was referring to an actual extra chip, or to a certain form of carbon-based computation
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07:35:37 <Fiora> oh wow there's a wikipedia page
07:35:38 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncore
07:35:39 <Sgeo> Actually, still not sure I can tell
07:35:56 <Fiora> huh, it's responsible for doing cache coherency and things
07:36:16 <Sgeo> Bike, my failed attempt at attemting to continue the joke if it was a joke
07:36:17 <kmc> itt: carbon based lifeforms
07:36:45 <kmc> anyway, many ways to hack a machine that is 'off'
07:37:01 <Sgeo> Actually, I'm still not sure.
07:37:26 <kmc> even pulling the power cord may not be enough -- remember that Google puts a 12V backup battery in each of their servers
07:37:46 <zzo38> They make it such complicated that such things as rootkits will be possible......
07:38:07 <kmc> might be enough to power a management chip well enough to read memory contents and transmit them covertly by radio, toggling a GPIO pin to act as an antenna
07:38:19 <kmc> THEY'RE IN THE WALLS
07:38:25 * kmc hides under the bed
07:38:28 <fizzie> Isn't an uncore also what artists sometimes do after a show if the uudience asks them to?
07:38:36 <Fiora> kmc: there's monsters under the bed though!!
07:38:38 <coppro> how do you get more privileged than ring 0? isn't ring 0 basically by definition the most privileged?
07:38:41 * Bike TEMPESTs kmc's computer, finds him looking at a surprising amount of furry porn
07:39:06 <Bike> coppro: old definitions
07:39:21 <kmc> coppro: it's a technical aspect of the CPU which means "most privileged" in a specific technical sense
07:39:24 <Bike> we're in a brave new era, where the ring of privileges actually forms a ring
07:39:48 <kmc> coppro: other components of the system the CPU operates in may be equally or more privileged
07:39:57 <kmc> if the CPU is actually virtualized then the hypervisor has more privilege
07:40:14 <kmc> likewise if there's a management chip that can read/write memory independently
07:40:19 <kmc> which is something most PCI devices can do
07:40:24 <kmc> also anything plugged into firewire, whee
07:40:29 <Sgeo> Ring -3 is hard to google for
07:40:37 <Fiora> there's that weakness that firewire lets you write anywhere in memory, right?
07:40:41 <Fiora> or at least the first 4 gigabytes or something
07:40:48 <Bike> @google "ring -3"
07:40:49 <lambdabot> http://www.movieweb.com/movie/the-ring-3
07:40:49 <lambdabot> Title: The Ring 3 (2011) - MovieWeb.com
07:40:53 <kmc> http://www.blackhat.com/presentations/bh-usa-09/TERESHKIN/BHUSA09-Tereshkin-Ring3Rootkit-SLIDES.pdf
07:40:56 <Bike> ok, you win this round.
07:41:01 <kmc> had to use bing not google, to get a link without the stupid bullshit
07:41:40 <Sgeo> Also, are there rings between 3 and 0?
07:41:48 * Bike looks at the clock, looks at this scratch buffer full of code, realized he'd been intending to have finished a blog post. siiiiigh
07:41:49 <kmc> coppro: SMM is closer to an actual exception within the processor to the idea that ring 0 has the most privilege
07:41:52 <Bike> Sgeo: yes but iirc nobody uses them
07:42:07 <kmc> Xen paravirt guest OS runs in ring 1 iirc
07:42:12 <kmc> is the only major use I know of
07:42:17 * Fiora reads this presentation thing
07:43:04 <kmc> coppro, Sgeo: the way SMM (System Management Mode) works is basically that the mobo can assert a pin on the CPU, which makes it drop what it's doing, save all its state, and go execute some code that might not even be visible normally
07:43:15 <kmc> it's a kind of interrupt that can't be disabled or even observed (except through timing)
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07:44:17 <fizzie> I think OS/2 used either ring 1 or 2 for something like drivers.
07:44:17 <kmc> it's used to make the CPU do some work on behalf of peripheral hardware, stuff that is logically independent of any OS
07:44:22 <Sgeo> If rootkits can get in, could anti-rootkit software get in?
07:44:26 <fizzie> Maybe OS/2 doesn't quite count as "major use" these days.
07:44:38 <kmc> like converting between USB keyboard and legacy keyboard controller stuff
07:44:44 <Bike> "backward-delete-char-untabify" ilu emacs
07:45:18 <Fiora> ARC4 processor, huh.. and wow. active even in sleep mode
07:45:22 <fizzie> "For guest code in ring 0, VirtualBox employs a nasty trick: it actually reconfigures the guest so that its ring-0 code is run in ring 1 instead (which is normally not used in x86 operating systems)." [VirtualBox manual.]
07:45:43 <Bike> What works in ring 0 that doesn't in ring 1?
07:45:53 <kmc> that makes sense, then every privileged instruction is a fault and the hypervisor can intervene
07:46:13 <kmc> Bike: i think a lot of privileged stuff like RDMSR / WRMSR, messing with GDT or TSS
07:46:22 <Sgeo> What happens if you want more rings?
07:46:28 <kmc> then you're screwed
07:46:31 <Sgeo> e.g. VirtualBox in VirtualBox?
07:46:35 <kmc> can't do it
07:46:35 <Bike> you call intel and hope you have money
07:46:45 <Fiora> Sgeo: you need to unequip your other rings
07:46:48 <Fiora> haven't you like played any rpgs
07:46:51 <kmc> not without some extra trickery
07:46:51 <Fiora> you can only equip two rings
07:46:53 <Fiora> even though you have 10 fingers
07:47:04 <kmc> if you're using hardware assisted virtualization then sometimes it's possible
07:47:14 * Bike googles WRMSR, gets a tripod site, decides it's too early in the morning to read about these horrible things
07:47:19 <kmc> Linux's KVM supports nested virtualization now, but I would expect it's horribly buggy
07:47:22 <Sgeo> I guess it makes sense for VirtualBox to not run guest stuff in 3 to make sure guest's own security assumptions still work
07:47:50 <kmc> yeah, it's fun when hypervisor bugs enable a privilege escalation within the guest
07:48:01 <kmc> not as fun as VM breakout bugs, but funny anyway
07:48:06 <fizzie> The segment protection levels also include >= and <= kind of checks, so it's possible e.g. for some memory areas be writable from ring 0 but not from ring 1, if you've got the descriptor tables set like that.
07:48:15 <kmc> of course bugs in "real hardware" can also enable privesc
07:48:49 <coppro> Bike: privileged instructions such as touching interrupts
07:49:08 <coppro> system operations like halt or reboot
07:49:32 <coppro> probably the page table too, though I'm not sure how VMs handle that
07:50:21 <fizzie> "The following system instructions are privileged instructions: LGDT, LLDT, LTR, LIDT, MOV (control registers), LMSW, CLTS, MOV (debug registers), INVD, WBINVD, INVLPG, HLT, RDMSR, WRMSR, RDPMC, RDTSC."
07:50:23 <kmc> x86 also provides for access to I/O ports at lower than ring 0 privilege: http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/6.893/2009/readings/i386/s08_03.htm
07:50:24 <fizzie> Well, that's a long list.
07:51:04 <kmc> note that you can clear interrupts if CPL <= IOPL
07:51:05 <fizzie> (You can toggle bits in CR4 to enable RDPCM and RDTSC at any CPL.)
07:51:26 <kmc> which means this program is enough to freeze an x86 linux system, or at least a core: iopl(3); asm("cli");
07:51:29 <kmc> needs root of course
07:51:34 <fizzie> RDKMC is a very privileged instruction, because it can read kmc's state.
07:52:20 <kmc> i saw a proposal that Linux seccomp mode should disable RDTSC to avoid untrusted programs performing timing side channel attacks
07:52:32 <Fiora> RDFIORA returns 'CA' in ax
07:52:36 <Fiora> because that's my state
07:52:42 <kmc> http://blog.cr0.org/2009/05/time-stamp-counter-disabling-oddities.html
07:52:53 <Sgeo> I should learn x86 stuff at some point
07:53:03 <Sgeo> This is intensely interesting and I understand little of it
07:53:25 <Fiora> RDTSC... I wonder if stopping RDTSC would really solve that problem
07:53:40 <Fiora> it seems like it migbht be safer to just try to solve the timing attack weaknesses?
07:53:42 <kmc> it is interesting from one perspective; from another it's just arbitrary historical details that don't relate to anything fundamental
07:53:55 <kmc> Sgeo: most of the above machinery is not used by common OSes
07:54:19 <kmc> they use segmentation and task switch and call gates only in a vestigial manner
07:54:27 <Fiora> I remember reading about the AES timing attack thing, it was really interesting
07:54:39 <Fiora> how they could, like, actually realistically recover a key in a real-world situation
07:54:43 <fizzie> Another trivia factoid: the x86 page-level protection is just "supervisor" (CPL 0, 1 or 2) or "user" (CPL 3); it only has one bit.
07:54:54 <kmc> all of the security comes from paging, the User bit on pages, and the distinction between ring 0 and 3 only
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07:55:22 <kmc> fizzie: hm, yeah, that means you can't really run device drivers in ring 1/2 on an OS which uses paging for protecting ring 0
07:55:49 <fizzie> Fortunately, segments.
07:56:02 <fizzie> (It's what's for breakfast.)
07:56:04 <edwardk> speaking of paging i take it you saw the turing machine in the mmu, right?
07:56:09 <kmc> hm what happens if you far call to a segment with lower (more privileged) CPL
07:56:11 <kmc> that's a fault right?
07:56:53 <kmc> wait i'm confused
07:57:16 <kmc> right, the privilege is the less privileged of the segment descriptor's DPL and the segment selector (i.e value in %cs)'s CPL
07:57:24 <fizzie> I haven't ever really bothered to get all that straight, since it's not just about those two.
07:57:35 <fizzie> There's the CPL, the DPL, the RPL and the C flag.
07:57:36 <kmc> and decreasing the CPL is certainly a fault
07:58:13 <fizzie> If it's a nonconforming segment, CPL must equal DPL, otherwise it's #GP.
07:58:15 <kmc> "max(CPL, RPL) ≤ DPL where CPL is the current privilege level (found in the lower 2 bits of the CS register), RPL is the requested privilege level from the segment selector, and DPL is the descriptor privilege level of the segment (found in the descriptor)."
07:58:54 <kmc> so if RPL > CPL then you're, say, a kernel accessing user data in a way which is supposed to fault if the user couldn't access it
07:58:59 <kmc> edwardk: yeah, that was great :)
07:59:11 <fizzie> kmc: But those rules are different for conforming and nonconforming segments.
07:59:34 <kmc> fizzie: which is amusing because that's a sorely needed capability which Intel is finally adding back in, 30 years later
07:59:53 <kmc> (accessing user data from ring0 in a way that can't be tricked into accessing kernel data)
08:00:22 <fizzie> The manual says: "When accessing nonconforming code segments, the CPL of the calling procedure must be equal to the DPL of the destination code segment; -- The RPL of the segment selector that points to a nonconforming code segment has a limited effect on the privilege check. The RPL must be numerically less than or equal to the CPL of the calling procedure for a successful control transfer to ...
08:00:27 <fizzie> ... occur. -- When accessing conforming code segments, the CPL of the calling procedure may be numerically equal to or greater than (less privileged) the DPL of the destination code segment; -- The segment selector RPL for the destination code segment is not checked if the segment is a conforming code segment."
08:00:54 <Fiora> this topic reminds me kind of a bit about a thing I was wondering when reading intel's next-gen instruction documents
08:01:07 <Fiora> they added these new (user-level?) instructions for reading and writing 'fg' and 'gs'
08:01:21 <Fiora> but I don't know nearly enough about segments to know what the intent here is or what it's supposed to be for?
08:01:27 <Fiora> but like, they must have something they're putting them in for
08:01:46 <kmc> I guess that's because in AMD64, writing segment registers is a privileged operation
08:02:02 <fizzie> FS and GS are really the only segments that survive in long mode.
08:02:03 <kmc> linux has arch_prctl(ARCH_SET_FS, ...)
08:02:27 <kmc> linux glibc uses one of %fs and %gs (forgot which) for thread-local data and also the stack canary
08:02:38 <fizzie> Windows uses one for a pointer to some OS data structures.
08:02:39 <zzo38> Avoid these problems by simplicity.
08:02:53 <Fiora> what's the kind of thing you'd want to use segments for in long mode?
08:03:00 <kmc> basically it's just another base register
08:03:09 <fizzie> kmc: IIRC, you can select either FS and GS for glibc when compiling. (Of course one of them is the standard.)
08:03:13 <kmc> [%fs+%rsi+%rdx+7]
08:03:34 <kmc> and the value in %fs / %gs will be left unperturbed by most code
08:03:40 <kmc> hence the use in thread local storage
08:03:41 <fizzie> Fiora: Well, you could use them for thread-local data, or as pointers to OS data structures.
08:04:12 <kmc> each thread needs a separate block of linear addresses, so it needs some base pointer to that, but keeping that pointer in memory would be slow, and reserving a general purpose register for it would suck
08:04:25 <kmc> (though these solutions are definitely used when others aren't available)
08:04:36 <fizzie> Unless I misremember, in long mode the FS and GS get their base addresses from specific MSRs, and there's no limits involved.
08:04:48 <kmc> for the stack canary it has an additional benefit
08:05:00 <kmc> fizzie: I think that's right, at least if you want to set a 64-bit base
08:05:10 <Fiora> ahhh. thread local storage
08:05:31 <Fiora> so basically it lets applications do that kind of stuff without using platform-specific kernely nonsense?
08:05:39 <kmc> so the idea of stack canaries is that you put a random value (not known to attackers) on the stack, and then before each RET you check if that value is there, and if it's not then somebody done smashed your stack
08:06:04 <kmc> but this means you need to store the 'correct' value of the canary somewhere, for comparison
08:06:36 <kmc> but you want to make it as hard as possible for the attacker to read that value using some other bug
08:07:13 <kmc> so you can put it at a random linear address, and reference it only from %fs, and you count on the fact that there isn't much code generally that uses %fs so less chance of a bug which leaks memory around there
08:07:32 <kmc> at least i think that's part of the motivation in glibc. might just be convenient to treat it the same way as thread local data
08:08:44 <Fiora> is there a difference between fs and gs or are they just two equal but different segment things?
08:09:04 <zzo38> I am trying to learn about programming Verilog. Do you know some things about Verilog programming?
08:09:32 <kmc> Fiora: the latter afaik
08:09:40 <Fiora> okay so it's not like cs/ds/es
08:09:40 <kmc> let us not forget the glorious SWAPGS instruction
08:10:11 <kmc> yeah in 32-bit x86 they are basically ds / es workalikes
08:10:19 <kmc> i think fs and gs were actually added later, maybe 486
08:10:29 <kmc> anyway gs does have a special role on amd64
08:10:38 <Fiora> "SWAPGS exchanges the current GS base register value with the value contained in
08:10:41 <Fiora> MSR address C0000102H (MSR_KERNELGSbase). KernelGSbase is guaranteed to be
08:10:44 <Fiora> canonical; so SWAPGS does not perform a canonical check. The SWAPGS instruction
08:10:47 <Fiora> is a privileged instruction intended for use by system software. "
08:10:51 <kmc> so SYSCALL is a fast syscall instruction
08:11:03 <kmc> fast meaning that it doesn't save/restore any state
08:11:05 <Fiora> "swapgs can be used to quickly get a pointer to the kernel data structures"
08:11:22 <Fiora> "by design , swap gs doesn't require any general purpose registers or memory operands" ahhhhhhhhhh
08:11:42 <kmc> yeah you see
08:11:44 <kmc> the glory of this hack
08:12:59 <Fiora> so you swapgs, then you can save registers in the kernel structures
08:13:15 <Fiora> without having to worry about "oh gosh I need to modify state to save state eeep what do I do"
08:14:42 <Fiora> though they don't have a 64-bit pusha...
08:15:29 <kmc> i think the trickiest bit in JOS (MIT OS class toy OS) is the part where the userspace segfault handler returns directly to normal userspace code, restoring all registers at once
08:16:08 <Fiora> I remember that being tricky too, we used a MIPS toy OS thing and the context switch bit was tricky
08:16:37 <kmc> mjrosenb told me about some insane thing on MIPS where you have to put one of your context-switching instructions in the branch delay slot after the branch back to userspace
08:16:46 <kmc> that's just how it's done
08:17:47 <Fiora> the hacks that go into this kind of stuff are really amazing
08:18:02 <kmc> on ARM there's just a separate register file for each CPU mode
08:18:08 <kmc> or some registers anyway
08:18:14 <kmc> want some shared for syscall args etc
08:19:01 <kmc> as much as I would like to stay and nerd out further, i really must sleep
08:19:04 <kmc> ttyl everyone
08:19:50 <Vorpal> Fiora, which architecture is swapgs?
08:20:12 <Vorpal> <zzo38> I am trying to learn about programming Verilog. Do you know some things about Verilog programming? <- ais523 might
08:20:45 <Vorpal> zzo38, ask him when he is here next time?
08:22:07 <Vorpal> wait, swapgs must be x86
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09:01:53 <zzo38> Do you know this quotation? Life is truly quite absurd, but with a little effort we could make it completely ridiculous.
09:02:08 <Taneb> It sounds Douglas Adams-y
09:02:08 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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09:09:42 <Taneb> zzo38, the biggest differences between monoidplus's Group class and groups' Group class is a different name, and mine has more instances and yours has an instance from contravariant
09:10:54 <Taneb> (the different name is minvert/invert)
09:10:58 <zzo38> Ignore mine then; mine that one isn't really very good, compared to some other stuff I put.
09:11:31 <Taneb> Also, I've concluded that the additional power given by a group isn't much use in Haskell
09:13:04 <zzo38> OK, then. Yes, I suppose it isn't much. Still, such a thing is possible.
09:13:11 <zzo38> Do you find this question offensive?
09:13:30 <Taneb> No, merely self-referential
09:19:56 <Taneb> 'The actor, 35, said there was a huge amount of weird fan fiction on the internet'
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09:21:02 <zzo38> On a scale of 1 to 4, what are your feelings about the colour green? (What is this quotation from?)
09:21:22 <zzo38> (Unlike them, I will allow 1 and a half up to 4 and a half)
09:21:39 <monqy> depends on what kind of green
09:22:15 <zzo38> monqy: Yes, I guess it does.
09:22:30 <zzo38> However, I also think that it does not make a lot of sense to use such a scale.
09:22:44 <Taneb> I was referring to the green component of the RGBA colour spectrum
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09:23:22 <zzo38> Taneb: O, yes, that too. But it usually is made to go from 0 to 255, or sometimes from 0 to 1, instead.
09:23:47 <Taneb> But the question said 1 to 4, so I divided and whatnot
09:25:09 <zzo38> OK, yes, it does say 1 to 4.
09:25:21 <zzo38> Like I said, I think that it does not make a lot of sense to use such a scale.
09:30:38 <Taneb> Hold on, hold on, hold on
09:32:34 <zzo38> I can think of a hypothetical extension to Haskell with bijective case blocks, where all cases must be specified without overlap, and it must remain valid, under the same conditions, if you switch the stuff before and after ->
09:33:45 <Taneb> That sounds pretty weird
09:33:51 <zzo38> Finite bijective functions is what seems to me to follow the rules of a logic with numbers.
09:34:02 <zzo38> Taneb: How does it seem weird? It seems OK to me.
09:34:31 <Taneb> So, both sides you'd need a pattern match that doesn't use _ or @ or ~ or viewpatterns
09:34:47 <zzo38> Taneb: Yes, it does imply that too.
09:35:15 <zzo38> It is what I was thinking of, too.
09:35:46 <Taneb> So the only thing you can actually do is reshape
09:37:10 <oklopol> reversible computations are usually as strong as non-reversible ones tho
09:37:23 <oklopol> presumably this includes haskell
09:38:21 <zzo38> You could further allow expressions which result in bijective functions, including in the patterns, but no part of it is from inside of this case block.
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09:39:51 <zzo38> It seems something like view patterns?
09:44:44 <zzo38> oklopol: How would you do it, then?
09:45:51 <oklopol> you carry an auxiliary list called the toilet, which starts out empty. whenever you do something, you write what you did on the tape.
09:46:17 <oklopol> you get a ton of crap in the end.
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09:46:42 <zzo38> Yes, I know of that.
09:46:54 <zzo38> That isn't what I meant, though.
09:47:21 <oklopol> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.159.2776
09:47:48 <Sgeo> "Amelia is the progeny of Iris. (Its namesake will also be the progeny of Iris's namesake any day now.)"
09:47:55 <Sgeo> I take it someone's going to have a child soon
09:49:11 <monqy> what tipped you off
09:49:16 <oklopol> Theorem 3.2. removes the crap
09:49:52 <oklopol> zzo38: were you asking how to do this in haskell specifically?
09:50:06 <Sgeo> Picasa for Linux is dead?
09:50:53 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot metasepia monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
09:51:10 <fungot> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
09:51:56 <zzo38> I was trying to think of it, because I was trying to think of how to make Curry-Howard of a logic which has numbers, in Haskell.
09:53:00 <oklopol> but i know little about both C-H and haskell
09:55:43 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Where did you learn to type?
09:55:48 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what is that ^list command?
09:56:02 <Vorpal> Sgeo, and what is the `list supposed to be?
09:56:04 <Taneb> Vorpal, Homestuck update notifier
09:56:14 <Taneb> And `list is a list of people who've ran `list
09:56:45 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot metasepia monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
09:56:53 <Taneb> Ah, fungot was already on the list
09:56:54 <fungot> Taneb: s/ producing/ fnord warning 256 kb vs. 128 kb) or " gib" ( singular) or " "
09:58:29 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
09:58:42 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: type: lsit: not found
09:58:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/list
10:02:42 <fizzie> I see that's been changed since the last I saw it.
10:06:59 <fizzie> It used to collect the names in the script.
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10:07:41 <fizzie> See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/be90d778a82d/bin/list for the previous version.
10:08:27 <Jafet> `run echo '#!/bin/true' > bin/listen && chmod +x bin/listen
10:10:24 <Jafet> `run echo '#!/bin/rec' > bin/rec && chmod +x bin/rec
10:10:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: /hackenv/bin/rec: /bin/rec: bad interpreter: No such file or directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/rec: Success
10:11:25 <Jafet> `run echo '#!/hackenv/bin/rec' > bin/rec
10:11:50 <Jafet> `run rec && echo $?
10:13:25 <fizzie> `run false && echo $? # a pattern of dubious usefulness, given that the echo only happens if $? is 0
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10:21:10 <zzo38> Curry-Howard of intuitionistic logic is just with pure functions; with classical logic, you can have continuations; I have been told that with temporal logic you can have reactive programming; I think if you have linear logic, you can have specifying how something is used once and so on, and more things; but, there are many more kind of logic than just that!
10:21:21 <zzo38> What other kind of logic could be used with it?
10:24:44 <zzo38> But I think logic with numbers correspond to bijective functions. Axiom 1 of TNT might be like: axiom1 :: forall a. (Maybe a <-> Zero) -> Zero; axiom1 f = f Nothing;
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10:27:54 <zzo38> axiom2 :: forall a. Either a Zero <-> a; axiom2 = bijection { Left x <-> x; }; axiom3 :: forall a b. Either a (Maybe b) <-> Maybe (Either a b); axiom3 = bijection { Left x <-> Just (Left x); Right Nothing <-> Nothing; Right (Just x) <-> Just (Right x); };
10:30:12 <zzo38> axiom4 :: forall a. (a, Zero) <-> Zero; axiom4 = bijection { }; axiom5 :: forall a b. (a, Maybe b) <-> Either (a, b) a; axiom5 = bijection { (x, Nothing) <-> Right x; (x, Just y) <-> Left (x, y); };
10:31:02 <zzo38> There. Is that it? I think so!
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10:40:42 <zzo38> Two eggs costs less than one egg, but if you buy two eggs, you must eat both. Does linear logic do this?
10:42:46 <monqy> `addquote <zzo38> Two eggs costs less than one egg, but if you buy two eggs, you must eat both. Does linear logic do this?
10:42:50 <HackEgo> 984) <zzo38> Two eggs costs less than one egg, but if you buy two eggs, you must eat both. Does linear logic do this?
10:43:17 <zzo38> That doesn't answer the question.
10:53:27 * Vorpal throws away the second egg
10:54:24 <zzo38> And I think with linear logic it is possible to specify if it is not allowed to throw away the second egg (and it is also not allowed to throw away the first egg)
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11:27:37 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> aleph 1 times beth 1 is equal to beth one regardless of the CH, right?
11:27:51 <oerjan> yes. i'm not sure about without the AC, though.
11:28:51 <oerjan> because m*m = m for all infinite cardinalities is equivalent to AC.
11:29:42 <oerjan> and m*n = max (m,n) is not weaker than that...
11:30:22 <oerjan> <Lymia> codu.org is alive... <-- THE LOGS SEEM TO CONFIRM IT WAS
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13:14:22 <Taneb> Sounds like you need a stanely knife!
13:14:32 <Taneb> s/stanely/stanley/
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18:14:00 <Taneb> (third person to "hello"? I'm losing my touch...)
18:14:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hello: not found
18:15:24 <Taneb> `learn hello hello hello, what's all this then?
18:16:07 <Taneb> `run echo "echo Hello" > bin/hello
18:16:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/hello: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/hello: cannot execute: Permission denied
18:16:33 <Taneb> Wow, I suck at HackEgo
18:16:43 <Taneb> AnotherTest, I don't use auto-reply on principle
18:16:54 -!- aloril has joined.
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18:26:10 <HackEgo> Python 2.7 (r27:82500, Oct 13 2010, 20:26:16) \ [GCC 4.4.4] on linux2 \ Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. \ >>>
18:26:12 <HackEgo> accesslog \ a.out \ bin \ brainfuck.fu \ canary \ Category:Self-modifying \ dbg.out \ dkVb20VL \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ lib \ link \ paste \ prefs \ prefs.bf \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ sgfoobar \ share \ slist.orig \ slist.
18:26:37 <HackEgo> Python 2.7 (r27:82500, Oct 13 2010, 20:26:16) \ [GCC 4.4.4] on linux2 \ Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. \ >>>
18:26:39 <HackEgo> cat: radio*: No such file or directory
18:27:10 <AnotherTest> `cat ./radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab*
18:27:11 <HackEgo> http://50.117.26.26:9903/Live | (#1 - 0/500) MitamineLab
18:27:33 <HackEgo> cat \ perl \ python \ ruby
18:27:56 <HackEgo> .: \ accesslog \ a.out \ bin \ brainfuck.fu \ canary \ Category:Self-modifying \ dbg.out \ dkVb20VL \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ lib \ link \ paste \ prefs \ prefs.bf \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ sgfoobar \ share \ slist.orig
18:28:04 <ion> dc quine: [91PP[dx]93PP]dx
18:28:26 <HackEgo> Usage: /bin/ls [OPTION]... [FILE]... \ List information about the FILEs (the current directory by default). \ Sort entries alphabetically if none of -cftuvSUX nor --sort. \ \ Mandatory arguments to long options are mandatory for short options too. \ -a, --all do not ignore entries starting with . \ -A, --almost-all d
18:28:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: foo: not found
18:29:04 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/foo: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/foo: cannot execute: Permission denied
18:31:44 <HackEgo> <!doctype html><html itemscope="itemscope" itemtype="http://schema.org/WebPage"><head><meta content="Search the world's information, including webpages, images, videos and more. Google has many special features to help you find exactly what you're looking for." name="description"><meta content="noodp" name="robots"><meta itemprop="image" content
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18:47:16 <Vorpal> Anyone in here know a good RSS reader that will work on both my phone and my linux desktop? I currently use Google reader, but it seems they are going to close that in June...
18:48:37 <Vorpal> and with phone I specifically mean Android
18:49:26 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, Well I need them to be in sync wrt read/unread
18:49:43 <Vorpal> so it doesn't need to be the same as such
18:49:48 <Vorpal> as long as they can stay in sync
18:50:07 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, know any?
18:53:04 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:53:10 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, I basically use it to keep track of youtube and xda-developers. Because youtube's built in subscription system sucks. I have never seen anything as unreliable...
18:53:57 <Vorpal> Taneb, hey, know any RSS reader (that isn't Google Reader, because that is going to close down...) that can sync between my desktop and my phone?
18:54:13 <Taneb> If you find one, tell me
18:54:22 <Taneb> I kind of need one too
18:54:43 <Vorpal> Taneb, I'm upset that they are closing it down
18:54:50 <Taneb> A lot of people are
18:55:00 <Vorpal> why are they closing it down
18:55:18 <Vorpal> and I really need a solution. Worst case I will have to write my own, and that doesn't sound fun at all
18:55:22 <Vorpal> parsing XML and what not
18:55:44 <Vorpal> I really don't want to do that
18:55:51 <Taneb> Depending on your choice of language, I'd help
18:55:53 -!- c00kiemon5ter has quit (Quit: c00kiemon5ter).
18:56:02 <Vorpal> Taneb, C? No just kidding
18:56:08 -!- c00kiemon5ter has joined.
18:56:15 <AnotherTest> can you write in python for android phones actually?
18:56:19 <Taneb> C is at the very edge of languages I'd consider helping with
18:56:21 <Bike> snooooobooooool
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18:56:29 <Vorpal> well the Android part would have the be Java
18:56:32 <Vorpal> meh I can deal with it
18:56:41 <Bike> AnotherTest: http://code.google.com/p/python-for-android/ doot
18:56:47 <Vorpal> What I would do is write a web-gui and run that on my RPi
18:56:53 <Vorpal> then have an android client in Java for it
18:57:10 <Vorpal> not sure what language to use for the server
18:57:41 <Vorpal> I have nginx on that RPi currently
18:58:12 <Vorpal> Taneb, not sure what to use for the server
18:58:27 <Taneb> If it's Haskell I'd certainly lend a hand
18:58:30 <Vorpal> anyway, what with my wrist issues I'm not sure I want to code a lot currently, outside work
18:58:52 <Taneb> If it's C, Python, or JavaScript, I'd try to but probably won't
18:59:07 <AnotherTest> I'd help depending what language you're writing it in
18:59:09 <AnotherTest> not if it's Haskell, because I'd just mess stuff up
18:59:18 <Vorpal> Taneb, if it is haskell would you write the entire server? I would gladly do the android client then. I would suggest that the server parses the thing and then sends it to the client as either XML or JSON
18:59:19 <Taneb> AnotherTest, you any good at Java?
18:59:25 <Vorpal> probably easiest from Java
18:59:44 <Vorpal> Taneb, I have done Android development before
18:59:50 <Vorpal> I did it for my bachelor thesis
19:00:04 <Vorpal> I don't really enjoy eclipse
19:00:11 <AnotherTest> Well, one problem is, I have never done Android development before
19:00:13 <Vorpal> but meh I don't want to touch the server part really
19:00:28 <Vorpal> time to set up a hg repo?
19:00:36 <Vorpal> (If anyone says git I'm leaving!)
19:01:19 <Vorpal> Anyway, I will look around for another solution first for a while
19:01:27 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, the difference is that I don't like git?
19:01:50 <Sgeo> ThatOtherPerson is a real person?
19:02:03 <Sgeo> I thought e was a joke someone put into the list
19:02:06 <Vorpal> I find the logic behind the user interface (i.e. how you use git add or whatever) unintuitive
19:02:10 <Vorpal> I prefer the way hg works there
19:02:23 <ThatOtherPerson> I haven't used Hg, so I'm not really entitled to an opinion
19:02:25 <AnotherTest> Vorpal: git doesn't have a user interface?
19:02:32 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, it does, a command line one
19:02:39 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, that is still a user interface
19:02:57 <Vorpal> I'm not talking about GUI
19:03:00 <AnotherTest> what's wrong with git add . && git commit -m "yay" && git push?
19:03:53 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, I don't think there is anything objectively wrong with it. It is just a subjective "I don't like it".
19:04:19 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, hg commit -m "whatever" [optional file list] && hg push
19:04:24 <Bike> Sgeo: like, ThatOtherPerson's been lurking in /names just to mess with you?
19:04:29 <Vorpal> anyway that was just one example
19:04:45 <Vorpal> I'm* simply not a fan of it
19:04:53 <AnotherTest> Oh Vorpal, so like, you don't like git add
19:05:03 <AnotherTest> because the rest sort of seems pretty similar
19:05:13 <Sgeo> I don't look through the /names list on a regular basis
19:05:34 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, that is one part indeed. Then there was some issue I ran into when trying to rebase that made no sense iirc. Forgot what it was
19:05:51 <Vorpal> Arguably though, rebasing is wrong, since it involves changing the history
19:06:06 <AnotherTest> because, if you do git rm, and someone else already pulled
19:06:26 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, you shouldn't edit what is public
19:06:38 <Vorpal> that means editing history
19:06:59 <AnotherTest> they add back the files that were removed in their fork or whatever
19:07:17 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, but surely a normal git rm (never got that deep into git that I needed to use it), would not cause issues if you do a normal merge?
19:07:31 <Vorpal> It would just mean "do you want to keep or delete the file"
19:07:37 <Vorpal> which is what hg does at least
19:07:56 <AnotherTest> maybe someone else just did something weird
19:08:21 <Vorpal> though hg works fairly well too
19:08:52 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, I use hg at work, and a clean checkout is ~700 MB.
19:08:59 <Vorpal> Never noticed any slowness
19:09:11 <Vorpal> That consists of multiple sub-repos too
19:09:20 <Vorpal> Does git support sub-repos?
19:10:01 <Vorpal> and presumably a directory name for it as well
19:10:20 <ThatOtherPerson> Yeah, without the directory name it adds it into the root directory
19:10:36 <Vorpal> actually I remember hg being slow once, but the reason was I had used a badly written regexp in .hgignore to ignore about 20000 files
19:10:40 <Vorpal> it was slightly slow then
19:11:10 <Vorpal> Rewrote it as a glob and it was fine
19:11:56 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, it keeps track of which revision you are using of each submodule I presume?
19:12:09 <Vorpal> and it handles recursive sub-repos?
19:13:04 <Vorpal> oh so a normal git update won't do it?
19:13:09 <Vorpal> that seems a bit annoying
19:13:21 <kmc> git submodules are not really usable as-is
19:13:51 <kmc> well what do you do if project A depends on projects B and C, both of which depend on D?
19:14:11 <Vorpal> kmc, you organize it properly?
19:14:14 <kmc> basically I think submodules are an OK building block, but you need some higher level system to manage them and the dependencies between projects
19:14:18 <kmc> Vorpal what does that mean
19:14:40 <kmc> Google has this tool 'repo' which is supposed to manage submodules
19:14:43 <Vorpal> well, I don't think sub-repos should be used by libraries for library dependency
19:14:45 <kmc> I think others have developed them as well
19:14:59 <kmc> Vorpal: ok
19:15:24 <kmc> but it's very convenient if a commit in your project also tells you which versions of dependencies will work with that version
19:15:28 <Vorpal> I used hg sub-repos extensively at work. Our workflow there is centered around having a "shell" repo that pulls in various sub-repos, such as shared base system, third party libraries (ffmpeg and boost for example) and a sub-repo for the application code
19:15:34 <Vorpal> that seems like a pretty sane setup to me
19:15:38 <kmc> i think that's basically the right way
19:15:50 <kmc> but you need some scripts to manage it or else you go crazy
19:15:59 <Vorpal> kmc, not in hg really no
19:16:34 <Vorpal> kmc, though we use TortoiseHg there. Haven't really messed with sub repos and command line hg
19:17:43 <Vorpal> kmc, anyway a commit in the application repo is followed by a commit to the shell as well. So yes we do keep them in sync (though sometimes there are a bunch of commits before a commit in the shell, generally one commit to the shell per push though)
19:17:56 <Vorpal> (and possibly several commits to the sub-repo)
19:18:06 <kmc> that's basically what we used with git at one place I worked
19:18:09 <Vorpal> kmc, also MQ is awesome
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19:18:10 <kmc> but we had pretty fancy tooling around it
19:18:24 <kmc> it was integrated with the build system
19:18:34 <kmc> so you could just say "build FooApp" and it would know which dependencies to check out
19:18:46 <kmc> we were an internal dev group shipping libraries to be used by other parts of the company
19:18:47 <Vorpal> kmc, so you had a file listing revisions?
19:18:57 <Vorpal> as opposed to letting the version control system itself track it?
19:19:02 <kmc> so this thing could be configured either to track master (for us) or to use certain known good 'release' versions
19:19:14 <kmc> and that would be applied consistently across the codebase because of those tags and commits in the 'super' repo
19:19:26 <kmc> no, the build system files just knew which projects depended on which
19:19:29 <zzo38> I wonder if a Famicom cartridge could detect RGB?
19:19:34 <kmc> the tracking of which versions work together was accomplished by commits in the super repo
19:19:42 <kmc> which contained Git submodules
19:19:51 <kmc> the same flat structure you described
19:20:06 <Vorpal> kmc, ah, we use tags for that, and it isn't really all that many sub repos that we can't manually sync the value when we update (I'm sitting at the application end as opposed to the library end though)
19:20:31 <Vorpal> that = known good releases
19:21:24 <Vorpal> kmc, I believe there is a recursive thing in one place, but that if for some special build-server thing that contains the normal shells as sub directories
19:21:29 <Vorpal> so it can pull them or something
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19:21:42 <Vorpal> not sure how that works, never really been much involved in that setup
19:44:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: doctor: not found
19:45:22 <Taneb> It looked like it wanted a URL...
19:45:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: this_does_not_exist: not found
19:45:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/hello: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/hello: cannot execute: Permission denied
19:45:42 <Taneb> Oh yeah, I suck at HackEgo
19:45:47 <HackEgo> hello hello hello, what's all this then?
19:45:55 <ThatOtherPerson> It would seem that it blocks displaying the output of "who"
19:46:08 <ThatOtherPerson> Which would be all the users currently logged into the system
19:46:13 <Taneb> `who google.com | paste
19:47:34 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: whois: not found
19:48:45 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.7.0-umlbox #1 Wed Feb 13 23:30:40 UTC 2013 x86_64 GNU/Linux
19:51:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: git: not found
19:51:53 <HackEgo> W: Unable to read /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/ - DirectoryExists (2: No such file or directory) \ E: Invalid operation install git
19:52:05 <HackEgo> Using built-in specs. \ Target: x86_64-linux-gnu \ Configured with: ../src/configure -v --with-pkgversion='Debian 4.4.5-8' --with-bugurl=file:///usr/share/doc/gcc-4.4/README.Bugs --enable-languages=c,c++,fortran,objc,obj-c++ --prefix=/usr --program-suffix=-4.4 --enable-shared --enable-multiarch --enable-linker-build-id --with-system-zlib --libexecd
19:52:14 <olsner> `sudo apt-get install git
19:52:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: sudo: not found
19:53:19 <Bike> `run echo $PATH
19:53:21 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
19:53:41 <Bike> it's just hackego having weid shellishness
19:54:16 <HackEgo> wget: missing URL \ Usage: wget [OPTION]... [URL]... \ \ Try `wget --help' for more options.
19:54:19 <ThatOtherPerson> `wget https://code.google.com/p/git-core/downloads/detail?name=git-1.8.2.tar.gz&can=2&q=
19:54:21 <HackEgo> --2013-03-17 19:54:20-- https://code.google.com/p/git-core/downloads/detail?name=git-1.8.2.tar.gz&can=2&q= \ Resolving code.google.com... failed: Name or service not known. \ wget: unable to resolve host address `code.google.com'
19:54:31 <ThatOtherPerson> `wget https://git-core.googlecode.com/files/git-1.8.2.tar.gz
19:54:33 <HackEgo> --2013-03-17 19:54:32-- https://git-core.googlecode.com/files/git-1.8.2.tar.gz \ Resolving git-core.googlecode.com... failed: Name or service not known. \ wget: unable to resolve host address `git-core.googlecode.com'
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20:02:54 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
20:07:50 <Vorpal> Taneb, ping, I found a possible alternative, Feedly. Haven't tried it yet
20:07:57 <Vorpal> some other people I know recommended it
20:08:51 -!- edwardk has joined.
20:09:13 <Taneb> Give it a go and tell me what it's like
20:10:07 <Vorpal> Taneb, well it is flashier, not quite as spartan as google reader. Only tried it on the phone so far
20:10:19 <Vorpal> you can tone down that a bit though
20:10:25 <Vorpal> auto import google reader stuff
20:11:48 <Vorpal> Taneb, hm verdict on mobile app: "I might possibly be able to get used to it"
20:12:59 <Vorpal> Taneb, will try the firefox add-in, seems it is an add-in in firefox and chrome, as opposed to a web page
20:14:19 <Vorpal> Taneb, the web GUI is significantly better
20:15:44 <Taneb> Significantly better to the phone GUI or to Reader?
20:15:53 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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20:16:02 <Vorpal> Taneb, better than the phone one
20:17:35 <Vorpal> Taneb, well, it isn't terrible. It does the syncing at least. Worth giving a try. You might like it, you might hate it. Personally it seems acceptable after tweaking the settings quite a bit.
20:18:46 <Taneb> On another note, I wonder how many people think of me as "Taneb"
20:19:05 <Bike> insofar as i think of you it's as 'taneb', wince i'm new
20:19:21 <AnotherTest> Taneb: don't worry I still think of you as "the rot13 guy"
20:19:22 <Vorpal> Taneb, anyway I can't figure out how to do "leave as unread"
20:19:33 <Taneb> I'd assume most the people I know from IRC know me as Taneb
20:19:49 <Taneb> One person whom I met via skype calls me Tanebro, despite me introducing myself as Taneb
20:20:10 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: I think of you as the guy in England with the sandwich
20:20:23 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, I can't remember the sandwich
20:20:45 <zzo38> I thought of something, if some sound chip would make square waves using something like (~|(duty&{noise,phase}) (I think this is the correct Verilog code?)
20:20:55 <Taneb> That's actually not a sandwich
20:20:59 <Taneb> It's a yorkshire pudding
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20:21:29 <zzo38> It isn't the real "duty" setting, but duty is one of things it could set
20:21:39 <Taneb> AnotherTest, you COULD, but for me it'd feel wrong
20:21:48 <Taneb> It'd be like saying "Hi, Aaron" to zzo38
20:22:01 -!- copumpkin has joined.
20:22:10 <Vorpal> Taneb, though there is an alternative "save for later", which might be an useful option to "mark as unread"
20:22:23 <Vorpal> would work for me at least
20:23:12 <Taneb> I'm gonna have to wait for some comics to update before I find out
20:27:45 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:28:23 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, you assume I read precisely one webcomic or maybe two
20:28:32 <Taneb> When I actually read APPROXIMATELY 20!
20:28:43 <Phantom_Hoover> you assume that Sgeo is bound by constraints of practicality or good sense
20:28:59 <Taneb> He's bound by sometimes being AFK
20:29:12 <Taneb> WHICH IS INSUFFICIENT FOR MY NEEDS
20:29:23 <Phantom_Hoover> also i started playing gerbal space program again after it came out on linux
20:30:14 <Vorpal> Taneb, yeah I'm going to give it a few days before deciding
20:30:21 <Vorpal> Taneb, not a total fan of the android GUI though
20:30:36 <Taneb> I very rarely check Reader on my phone
20:30:43 <Taneb> And I'm not a fan of Reader's android GUI
20:31:01 <Vorpal> For me it is xda-developers and youtube (because youtube subscription system absolutely sucks. Completely unreliable)
20:31:08 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:32:07 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
20:32:29 <zzo38> If you have 5-bit phase and 3-bit noise, you could then set duty=31 to have 1/32 duty square wave, or set duty=16 for 1/2 duty square wave, or to duty=0 for volume only
20:33:02 <zzo38> And then you could set duty=32 or duty=64 for different kinds of noise.
20:33:27 <Lumpio-> Is anybody actually reading what zzo38 is saying
20:33:41 <Lumpio-> I feel kinda sad for the guy, always asking random questions or announcing even more random discoveries, only to never get an answer
20:34:09 <zzo38> Lumpio-: Well, I am reading what I am writing, and you are noticing it so you might read it too even if it doesn't mean anything to you
20:34:38 <Taneb> Can I talk in channel with things that won't make any sense to anyone else?
20:35:04 <Lumpio-> What does {noise,phase} mean
20:35:05 <zzo38> Are you sure it won't make sense to anyone else? Maybe it is not sensible.
20:35:22 <zzo38> Lumpio-: In Verilog, it means concatenation of the bits
20:35:26 <Lumpio-> No, surely everything makes sense to everybody, your timing is just so... random
20:35:44 -!- edwardk has joined.
20:35:47 <zzo38> And the unary ~| means reduction NOR
20:37:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Lumpio-, as far as we can tell zzo38 is perfectly content to potter about in his own little intellectual world
20:38:40 <Lumpio-> zzo38: Anyways I guess it could work but does it offer much advantage over just having two channels
20:39:43 <zzo38> Having two channels? Do you mean, one square channel and one noise channel?
20:41:01 <Lumpio-> I guess it saves you from mixing them but if you don't want an extra mixed channel you could just use one bit to choose either square or noise
20:41:04 <Lumpio-> Instead of something... weird.
20:41:26 <Lumpio-> Your thing I guess would also allow a weird mix of noise and square wave but.. who needs that ¬u¬
20:41:31 <zzo38> The AY-3-8910 allows noise and square wave on the same channel.
20:41:54 <zzo38> (It has three channels, each one can be noise, square wave, both, or volume only; but it has no duty setting.)
20:44:02 <zzo38> I suppose some kind of special effects could be made with that.
20:44:22 <Lumpio-> Ah well, weird features like that give chips their own particular sound I guess.
20:44:55 <Bike> kmc: we do something wrong?
20:45:00 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:45:27 <shachaf> Since when are you in here?
20:46:00 <ion> Are you a Vorlon?
20:46:06 <zzo38> The AY8930 does have a setting for the duty cycle (VGMPlay does not currently emulate the AY8930, though, even though the VGM format supports it and VGMCK can write music for it).
20:47:01 <Taneb> About a quarter of the lens people are in here
20:47:16 <edwardk> well lens is a pretty esoteric language
20:47:47 <HackEgo> edwardk: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:47:57 <zzo38> edwardk: Do you know some things about Curry-Howard with various kind of logic?
20:48:18 <edwardk> zzo38: i used to. i've kind of paged all that info out
20:48:45 <zzo38> What kinds of logic, specifically?
20:48:45 <Bike> what have you paged in
20:49:02 <Taneb> Bike, how to define lenses in a dozen different ways
20:49:13 <shachaf> Lenses are paged out too. So it goes.
20:49:15 <zzo38> Does temporal logic correspond to reactive programming? Someone once told me that it is.
20:49:20 <edwardk> for my second thesis i kind of went nuts with substructural logic in terms of using display logic for a type system
20:50:23 <edwardk> i used temporal logics to reason about resource allocation. you might come up with an alternate interpretation for FRP but i doubt it
20:50:52 <zzo38> Does logic with numbers correspond to bijective functions? It seems to me that it might.
20:52:03 <Taneb> I wonder if edwardk has ever been asked the two most important questions for #esoteric
20:52:11 <Taneb> I already know his answers, in any case
20:52:23 <zzo38> What are the questions?
20:52:34 <Taneb> "Do you live in Hexham?"
20:52:40 <Taneb> "If not, do you live in Finland?"
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20:53:22 <Taneb> Boston is internationally famous for being neither in Hexham nor Finland
20:53:37 <shachaf> I didn't even go to Boston this NY trip!
20:53:42 <edwardk> so i've repeatedly been told
20:53:43 <Taneb> Indeed, the largest city known as Boston is on a different continent to both Hexham and Finland
20:54:01 <Taneb> However, there is at least one place known as Boston that is in the same country as Hexham
20:54:40 <shachaf> It is too cold, and I am sick.
20:54:50 <Bike> that basically sums up washington, yes.
20:54:59 <Taneb> Washington State too is neither in Hexham or Finland
20:55:09 <Taneb> Although it is less famous for this fact than Boston is
20:56:11 -!- Hadoop has changed nick to copumpkin.
20:57:05 <zzo38> I have more questions: [1] How many Bibles have you stolen? (use roman numerals) [2] How much garlic do you put in your tomato sauce? [3] Do you like to play monster character in Dungeons&Dragons game? [4] What is the square root of your godfather's telephone number, rounded to the nearest prime number?
20:57:29 <Taneb> zzo38, for [1], does it count if it just has the New Testament and the Psalms?
20:57:59 <Taneb> And for [4], do you count international dialling codes?
20:58:17 <Bike> III, none, yes, telephone numbers aren't algebraically complete
20:58:42 <shachaf> I haven't stolen any bibles. :-(
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20:59:47 <Taneb> II, none, never tried, dunno but he was on the Australian version of Who Wants To Be A Millionaire? once
21:00:17 <Sgeo> Fun fact: I was AFK when I was pinged
21:00:46 <zzo38> Taneb: If they live in a different dialing area then it counts.
21:01:51 <shachaf> I feel like I ought to steal a bible now.
21:02:12 <zzo38> shachaf: Why? Because you don't know how to write zero in roman numerals?
21:02:56 <zzo38> shachaf: How do you write zero in roman numerals? I have seen a bar with nothing beneath, in INTERCAL; the word "NIHIL", in CLC-INTERCAL; "0", on some 24-hour clocks and the Excuse (or Fool) card of some tarot decks (although in some games it is actually worth XXII, and in other games it ranks below cards in plain suits)
21:02:58 <shachaf> That was not my original reason but it's a good reason so now it's my reason.
21:04:11 <Sgeo> I'm scared, got a sandwich but asked for a dressing put on that I'm unfamiliar with. What if I dislike it?
21:05:30 <zzo38> I prefer for the Excuse card to have no index value.
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21:09:38 <Phantom_Hoover> were it not for your long and storied history you would forever be the man who was scared of his sandwich dressing
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21:13:06 <Sgeo> professional supporter?
21:13:37 <edwardk> i give them money every once in a while
21:14:26 <edwardk> an irc is the kind of cause i can bring myself to donate to ;)
21:14:30 <shachaf> edwardk's job is supporting Freenode.
21:15:16 <Sgeo> Can I become a professional esolangs.org supporter?
21:16:02 <shachaf> elliott already gets paid from the lens fund.
21:16:25 <edwardk> wait i thought i was keeping that for pizza money
21:21:56 <edwardk> speaking of lens, do you want to write something for the school of haskell? they were trying to get me to write up a lens tutorial for their site
21:22:15 <edwardk> i'm kinda buried trying to figure out all these cache oblivious structures i need
21:24:27 <shachaf> I started writing something and then got sidetracked. I should go back to it. You can probably make something nice in that format.
21:24:35 * shachaf notes that mgsloan works there now.
21:24:54 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> note that there is a fatal flaw in this plan <-- where?
21:25:25 <oerjan> i don't understand what you are talking about hth
21:25:37 <shachaf> elliott is totally trustworthy
21:26:31 * oerjan waves a salad dressing ominously at Sgeo
21:26:39 <Sgeo> "I can prove everything I say except for this sentence" vs "I can prove everything I say"
21:27:26 <zzo38> edwardk: Do you think logic with numbers corresponds to reversible (bijective) functions? It seems to me it is, I was discussing a hypothetical extension to Haskell to make a "bijective case block", and then defined the five axioms of TNT.
21:28:11 <oerjan> edwardk: i'm truly sorry about this.
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21:29:12 <oerjan> otoh if you _do_ end up with a type system for reversible computing i think i might actually read it.
21:29:13 <edwardk> zzo38: ##logic might be a better place to ask. once you throw predicates on numbers into the mix things get hairy
21:29:43 * edwardk personally finds reversible computing rather boring, because the kinds of steps you can make that are fully reversible aren't very interesting.
21:30:24 <oerjan> but but landauer's principle! quantum computing!
21:30:36 <shachaf> #esoteric seems to me like an appropriate channel for most of zzo38's questions.
21:30:53 <oerjan> shachaf: oonbotti disagrees.
21:31:45 <oerjan> #esoteric might be special
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21:32:03 <edwardk> given the baseline of even something like a 'very well behaved lens' you can extend the terminology and tools in the direction that pierce did, getting you a bidirectional programming story.. or the traversal/prism direction, which doesn't try to either force you into a straightjacket of fredkin gates, or ad-hoc reversals, etc. ;)
21:32:11 <zzo38> edwardk: Well, I will try that channels too, but I also see if you know. Also, I don't mean only reversible computing; I mean you can have ordinary functions too.
21:32:40 <zzo38> oerjan: I think I did have a type system for reversible computing, which is (<->).
21:33:08 <edwardk> given the amount of thought i'm willing to put into it i can't think of an obvious connection
21:33:43 <oonbotti> You can get help about specific command with #help <command>. Commands: #echo, #cat, #ls, #rm, #writefile, #cc, #exec, #msg, #readmsg, #forth, #loadforth, #eliza, #/etc/passwd
21:33:48 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
21:33:56 <oonbotti> No help available on "esoteric"
21:33:57 <Sgeo> ARGH CHANNEL NAMES I MUST CLICK THEM ALL
21:34:37 <Sgeo> #cc is a real channel
21:34:45 <Bike> having a client where #text reolves into a channel name seems odd
21:35:02 <nortti> graffiti doesn t sssa tobe co-operatiČg
21:35:03 <oerjan> what is that channel all the finns are ing
21:36:10 <Sgeo> Must... not... mention... a certain channel name
21:36:22 <oonbotti> #/etc/passwd - Output contents of /etc/passwd
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21:36:29 <oonbotti> root:x:0:0:Root Administrator:/root:/bin/mksh\nnobody:x:99:99:Unprivileged User:/dev/null:/bin/false\nwww:x:80:80:Web Server User:/var/www:/bin/false\nmessagebus:x:25:25:DBUS Daemon User:/dev/null:/bin/false\nhaldaemon:x:26:26:HAL Daemon User:/dev/null:/bin/false\nnaw:x:1000:1000:Linux User,,,:/home/naw:/bin/mksh\npjotr:x:1001:1001:Linux User,,,:/home/pjotr:/bin/sh\nnortti:x:1337:1337:Linux User,,,:/home/nortti:/bin/mksh\n
21:36:32 <oonbotti> #cc <source> <binary> - Compile <source> using c2bf compiler and output results in <binary>
21:36:56 <shachaf> nortti: are you using a PalmPilot™
21:37:28 <zzo38> edwardk: If you search the recent logs for "axiom1" and "axiom2" and so on, then you may find the examples that I made.
21:37:40 <shachaf> zzo38: edwardk has quit. So it goes.
21:38:06 <oerjan> Sgeo: i suggest instead "Must... not... obsess... over what I do or don't do"
21:38:15 <nortti> shachaf: it is now au^ilable for androR
21:39:28 <zzo38> Well, do you think the examples that I made can work, though?
21:41:24 <nortti> still, better than normal touch-qwerty
21:54:24 <oerjan> <Lumpio-> Is anybody actually reading what zzo38 is saying <-- sometimes
21:54:50 <oerjan> and sometimes i even have an answer.
21:54:50 <shachaf> zzo38 says worthwhile things!
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22:13:20 <Sgeo> Wouldn't Graffiti be better with a stylus>
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22:42:10 <pikhq> Graffiti's actually fairly nice with a stylus.
22:52:19 <coppro> apparently the programming languages course at my school has an interesting assignment this week: write an unlambda interpreter in prolog
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22:55:27 <oerjan> coppro: half the credit should be for implementing c properly, hth
22:56:34 <Sgeo> I was given wrong information in 4th grade.
22:57:15 <oerjan> the tragedy just deepens
22:57:53 <Sgeo> I remember being told that there's a reason that things always use an even number of batteries, because you need two batteries for... something
22:58:16 <Sgeo> But I think he said that a single battery wasn't really a battery, or something along those lines
22:59:12 <oerjan> my trusty old HP calculator has (well had, i should get new ones) 3 batteries, hth
22:59:24 <Sgeo> My wireless mouse takes 1 battery
23:00:14 <Sgeo> I think he may have been saying that
23:00:33 <coppro> there's also no real reason a commercial battery need be one cell
23:00:40 <Phantom_Hoover> also some batteries count as cells (e.g. 9v ones sometimes)
23:00:44 * oerjan assaults Phantom_Hoover with a battery
23:01:33 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_8n2Qgguto
23:05:31 <Bike> IOU one battery
23:08:16 <Phantom_Hoover> <Phantom_Hoover> also some batteries count as cells (e.g. 9v ones sometimes)
23:08:28 <Phantom_Hoover> this should be "some batteries contain multiple cells"
23:09:18 <kmc> is a locomotive traveling by itself a train?
23:09:32 <kmc> or a streetcar or a single EMU / DMU
23:11:08 <Jafet> http://static.tvtropes.o< 1363564804 437367 :tOP-MAn!~net-wark@188.160.186.220 JOIN #\FRIends*foR*evEr\
00:05:35 * Sgeo goes to read http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1ah6ie/algorithmic_trading_for_dummies/
00:08:11 <oerjan> what we need is dummy training for algorithms
00:09:19 <shachaf> kmc: There's going to be a mosh gsoc?
00:11:28 * Sgeo is slightly sad that he never did gsoc
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00:17:42 <Jafet> > let i = 0 :+ 1 :: Complex CReal in (((i**i**i)**i**i)**i**i)**i
00:17:55 <Jafet> > let i = 0 :+ 1 :: Complex CReal in ((i**i**i)**i**i)**i
00:18:08 <Jafet> > let i = 0 :+ 1 :: Complex CReal in (i**i**i)**i
00:18:20 <Jafet> > let i = 0 :+ 1 :: Complex CReal in i**i
00:18:22 <lambdabot> 0.2078795763507619085469556198349787700339 :+ 0.0
00:18:39 <Jafet> (they're all real)
00:23:31 <Bike> hm, that's a bit neat, it's exp(i log i)
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00:44:24 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
00:45:11 <monqy> it's alright? i read it while i'm waiting and i'm in the section about limits which is after the section about adjunctions and before the section about monads. that's where it is.
00:45:46 <shachaf> i sense a "monad tutorial in your future"
00:46:03 <shachaf> you should do exercise ddarius gave me about limits
00:48:00 <monqy> sure but maybe i should wait until im less busy??. ive only been sort of glancing over the exercises and working them a bit in my head since i usually read it when i dont really have time to fully work through them....in this "first pass" im focusing more on getting an intuition over an ability to actually work through things
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01:48:03 <shachaf> Old School vs. Non-Coding Hackers
01:48:05 <shachaf> A hacker would not whine about missing code. Hackers see missing code as an opportunity to build. Hackers like to build.
01:48:24 <Bike> stop or i'll link you haskell porn
01:48:28 <shachaf> better call our hacker classifier to classify this one
01:50:09 <Sgeo> Maybe I should learn Frege
01:50:15 <Sgeo> Could introduce it at work, maybe
01:50:33 <Bike> they named a language after frege of all people?
01:51:28 <Sgeo> 'He is considered to be one of the founders of modern logic and made major contributions to the foundations of mathematics.'
01:51:30 <Sgeo> What's so bad about that?
01:51:56 <Bike> mostly he's just old
01:52:21 <Bike> where's my schönfinkel, man
01:52:48 <Bike> also he's kind of an anti-semite, though i guess that doesn't matter for much when you're a hundred years dead, eh
01:55:26 <Bike> would be kinda neat if there was a language named after some nyaya guy
01:56:21 <oerjan> Frege oder nich Frege, das ist die Frage
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02:07:51 <Sgeo> Are there any good Linux distros for laptops from, say, the mid-to-late 90s?
02:10:22 <pikhq> Here's a nickle, kid. Buy yourself a real computer.
02:12:28 <Sgeo> Should I buy myself a better radio?
02:12:28 <Sgeo> https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-F_thxN8B8q8/ThDsmMfdNrI/AAAAAAAAABs/oOMaW22O-CM/s537/11+-+1
02:13:20 <Sgeo> https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-AM3tMmG_l6M/ThDsmRcTTHI/AAAAAAAAABw/X9kvx5G_PqA/s537/11+-+2
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02:16:59 <Sgeo> http://www.fark.com/comments/7649896/Evil-defense-contractor-develops-graphene-membrane-that-makes-it-vastly-less-expensive-to-filter-water-for-drinking
02:19:16 <Phantom_Hoover> that radio is impressive in its ability to avoid any vestige of retro charm
02:19:42 <Sgeo> You mean it's not the sort of radio you think of when you think of 'old radio'?
02:25:08 <Bike> i have to ask why you'd ask for such a distro, sgeo
02:25:41 <pikhq> Sgeo: Your laptop there is undoubtedly worse than my last three cell phones.
02:26:41 <Bike> my netbook is worse than my phone. it's a bit sad.
02:27:22 <Sgeo> Bike, because it woild be fun to use old equipment like that?
02:28:34 <Sgeo> Why is Linux so much heavier than DOS?
02:29:14 <Lumpio-> I dunno perhaps it's because Linux actually does something
02:29:15 <pikhq> Because DOS proper is basically a BIOS abstraction layer?
02:30:06 <Bike> it's like, if you're going to retrocompute, at least do it with something old enough to be interesting
02:30:23 <pikhq> Or at least obscure enough.
02:30:31 <pikhq> At *least* do OS/2 on that sucker or something.
02:30:41 <Bike> like that PARC laptop i forgot the name of
02:30:41 <Sgeo> Windows 1.0 was supported until 2001 wtf
02:31:05 <pikhq> Running DOS on a mid-90s system is... basically boring.
02:31:06 <Sgeo> I think the laptop has a busted battery anyway :(
02:32:47 <Sgeo> Windows 1.0 used tiled windowing....
02:34:42 <Sgeo> Windows/386 is followed by Windows/286. Who was in charge of naming o.O
02:35:06 <Sgeo> o.O OS/2 is what became NT? I didn't really know what OS/2 was
02:35:43 <coppro> `addquote <Sgeo> o.O OS/2 is what became NT? I didn't really know what OS/2 was
02:35:49 <pikhq> OS/2 didn't really become NT.
02:35:53 <Bike> well, you could also say xenix became windows
02:36:00 <HackEgo> 985) <Sgeo> o.O OS/2 is what became NT? I didn't really know what OS/2 was
02:36:00 <Bike> you'd be mostly wrong but you still said it
02:36:07 <pikhq> OS/2 was supposed to be the successor to old Windows and DOS.
02:36:17 <pikhq> But NT replaced it instead.
02:36:18 <Sgeo> http://www.computerhope.com/history/windows.htm
02:36:26 <Sgeo> 'Following its decision not to develop operating systems cooperatively with IBM, Microsoft changes the name of OS/2 to Windows NT.'
02:36:41 <pikhq> That's very damned false.
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03:00:17 <zzo38> I have read somewhere that the "par" operator in linear logic means that you have both, but you are not allowed to use them together. Is this correct?
03:01:06 <Sgeo> http://www.oldsoftware.com/
03:01:15 <Sgeo> This site looks like it's as old as the stuff it's selling
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03:12:47 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how the beth numbers and the gimel function are both things related to cardinality despite the fact that beth and gimel look the same
03:13:39 <Sgeo> beth and gimel don't look the same
03:14:15 <shachaf> They don't look the same at all.
03:14:21 <pikhq> Yeah, and 入 and 人 are utterly identical.
03:14:40 <Phantom_Hoover> i was going off http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimel_function
03:14:52 <Sgeo> Hmm, I guess they could look similar in a fixed-with font, somewhat
03:15:01 <shachaf> Wow, that font is really awful.
03:15:06 <Sgeo> Although I could still easily tell the difference
03:15:48 <Sgeo> Does the standard latex font draw the dot in the beth?
03:17:31 <shachaf> Now, complaining about bet and kaf would be more justified.
03:18:05 <Sgeo> How about yud and English apostrophes
03:18:28 <shachaf> Those are different. י and '
03:18:41 <shachaf> You might also complain about ר ד
03:19:11 <Sgeo> Would not complain about those
03:19:42 <Sgeo> only occurs at the end of words, iircםAlso
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03:20:08 <shachaf> But ס can also occur at the end of words.
03:20:27 <Sgeo> One's boxy, the other's curvy
03:20:48 <pikhq> Sgeo: Now try distinguishing ユ and コ.
03:20:52 <pikhq> In sloppy handwriting.
03:21:12 <shachaf> pikhq: Easy: The first one looks like a ב and the second one looks like a כ.
03:21:16 <Bike> god why are foreign langauges all so messy *idly scribbles u's and v's all over the place*
03:21:26 <pikhq> shachaf: Smartass.
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03:59:22 <zzo38> I made a programming language where the return values of subroutines can be a number, or they can be one of the three special values: open bus, CIRAM bank 0, CIRAM bank 1.
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04:01:24 <zzo38> In the use it is for, it can be used, so it is not for general purpose.
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04:06:21 <zzo38> Do you know of analog Verilog?
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04:14:31 <zzo38> Can any C compilers make a optimization for inverted logic?
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04:20:04 <zzo38> Is there a fast way to erase a DRAM from software?
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06:17:29 <zzo38> Do you like this? http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/User:Zzo38/Metadata_INI
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06:22:41 <oklopol> "<zzo38> Can any C compilers make a optimization for inverted logic?" what do you mean?
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06:25:22 <zzo38> oklopol: In some cases the boolean logic will be inverted in some circumstances, and depending on the CPU architecture and other things, moving around the places where the logic is inverted might be more efficient.
06:25:50 <kmc> ah yeah, i learned that inverting gates (nand/nor) are faster that non-inverting gates (and/or)
06:26:00 <kmc> and that's probably a simplification
06:26:19 <kmc> zzo38: if you want to bulk-erase memory, then maybe non-temporal store instructions are useful, but I don't know for sure
06:28:42 <oklopol> (i thought this had to do with zzo's earlier bijective haskell thing.)
06:29:57 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, that is one example of what I mean, but that specific example would probably be more useful for hardware programming languages such as Verilog. However, that is not the only example. Even in software, there may be cases based on how the boolean values are used in various numbers and bitwise operations and branch instructions and so on.
06:30:42 <zzo38> oklopol: I did write about the bijective Haskell stuff in ##logic channel, and they say yes it can work, to make the Curry-Howard of the logic with numbers.
06:31:36 <zzo38> So, that is the Curry-Howard of the logic with numbers! Now you know.
06:32:08 <Bike> how is ##logic?
06:32:41 <zzo38> I did nothing other than asking and discussing that question, and only one other person replied, but it helped.
06:33:57 <shachaf> A person who's in this channel, too!
06:34:14 <zzo38> Yes, in that case it is.
06:34:31 <zzo38> They didn't answer on this channel, though.
07:18:02 <fungot> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
07:24:11 <FreeFull> So a NAND/NOR is both more powerful and faster?
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07:37:23 <kmc> FreeFull may never know if a NAND/NOR is both more powerful and faster
07:50:39 <fizzie> fungot: Is NAND/NOR more powerful and faster?
07:50:39 <fungot> fizzie: now, what if we entered it into sarahbot :) at least relative to his current level
07:51:05 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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08:43:12 <Sgeo> I'm beginning to learn the hard way that just because someone sounds like they know what they're talking about, doesn't imply that they actually know what they're talking about
08:44:49 <zzo38> It can also be partially.
08:46:36 <Sgeo> A knowledgeable-seeming person on Reddit seems to be convinced that UTM == classical computers
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08:47:23 <zzo38> Someone made a user page in esolang wiki, which says "My web blog; visit the following website page" but actually it is linked to a Wikipedia article for an airline in Poland. The user page says they live in Austria, though.
08:47:28 <ThatOtherPerson> <Taneb> #esoteric is supposed to be about esoteric programming languages, but is really a couple of dozen people being weird
08:55:06 <Sgeo> "I may have been a bit lax with my terminology."
08:59:18 <HackEgo> bash: slist: command not found
09:00:54 <Sgeo> Someone baleeted it
09:02:28 <HackEgo> accesslog \ a.out \ bin \ brainfuck.fu \ canary \ Category:Self-modifying \ dbg.out \ dkVb20VL \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ lib \ link \ paste \ prefs \ prefs.bf \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ sgfoobar \ share \ slist.orig \ slist.
09:02:49 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: cannot access slist: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access slist: No such file or directory
09:03:01 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: cannot access slist*: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access slist*: No such file or directory
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09:06:01 <fizzie> `run ls slist* # may be more what you want
09:06:16 <fizzie> Good old leftover revertation things.
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09:24:27 <zzo38> I have the book "Surely You're Joking Mr. Feynman" and I also have the entire text of the book in my computer. Therefore it is sometimes useful for searching text in it, even though I like to have the book, too.
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09:26:52 <fizzie> A q-cumber is a quantum vegetable.
09:27:24 <zzo38> Other uses of such things is if one page got destroyed, to print out another copy. In this case it is difficult, but with the TeXbook, since the page correspond exactly, it can be done.
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09:37:26 <zzo38> I was playing Franchise Basketball, and on the free agent menu, it lists 1 to 14 on each page, but I pushed view 15, and it says some unusual things; their name is "f", they are 2079 feet and 6 inches tall, played 105 games without ever scoring any points, 15 years old, etc.
09:38:33 <zzo38> When trying 16, I get "vin ringdale", age -60, weight -15351 pounds, and an error message about "GETCOACH 0003".
09:39:20 <fizzie> 2079 feet 6 inches sounds quite high even for a basketballer.
09:39:37 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes, I think so too.
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10:06:47 <zzo38> I have managed to win over one hundred games in a row.
10:09:21 <zzo38> Maybe the computer opponent is no good.
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11:00:50 <oerjan> <zzo38> I have read somewhere that the "par" operator in linear logic means that you have both, but you are not allowed to use them together. Is this correct? <-- that really sounds more like "with" to me
11:01:15 <oerjan> which is that you must use exactly one of them
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13:55:35 <oerjan> ais523: SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM
13:56:17 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:56:23 <lambdabot> elliott said 1d 13h 1m 26s ago: looks like we shouldn't link to sprunge from the wiki; your BF Joust interpreter has disappeared
13:58:19 <ais523> A Letter To Bunny Pattern is pretty awesome, incidentally, despite being spam
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14:09:56 <boily> ais523: when a spam page is deleted, is it deleted forever? I'm curous about this lagopedian pattern.
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14:30:45 <ThatOtherPerson> `run echo -e "#/bin/sh\necho \"Cool stuff\"" > coolstuff.sh
14:30:54 <HackEgo> accesslog \ a.out \ bin \ brainfuck.fu \ canary \ Category:Self-modifying \ coolstuff.sh \ dbg.out \ dkVb20VL \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ lib \ link \ paste \ prefs \ prefs.bf \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ sgfoobar \ share \ slis
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14:31:34 <HackEgo> bash: coolstuff.sh: command not found
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14:38:04 <ais523> boily: it's not actually deleted, just hidden
14:38:07 <ais523> we can undo the deletion if necessary
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14:44:53 <Sgeo> Fun fact, deleting a specific revision entails deleting the page and undeleting all but one of the revisions
14:45:37 <ais523> we used to have to do that, but there's a better UI on it now
14:45:50 <ais523> and we can also keep the fact the revision existed public, but delete the contents
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14:53:55 <Phantom_Hoover> it also used to be that if anyone made edits to another section of the page after the one you wanted deleted, you had to remove those too
14:54:15 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that's still the case, MediaWiki thinks in terms of revisions, not diffs
14:54:27 <ais523> so if you're trying to hide text, you have to hide every revision that includes that text
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16:04:25 <Taneb> We're the most welcoming channel on Freenode!?
16:04:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wehlcome: not found
16:05:05 <HackEgo> Tahnehb: Wehlcohme to the ihntehrnahtiohnahl huhb fohr ehsohtehrihc prohgrahmmihng lahnguahge dehsihgn ahnd dehployhmehnt! Fohr mohre ihnfohrmahtiohn, chehck ouht ouhr wihki: http://ehsohlahngs.ohrg/wihki/Maihn_Pahge. (Fohr the ohthehr kihnd ohf ehsohtehrihca, try #ehsohtehrihc ohn ihrc.dahl.neht.)
16:09:37 <Taneb> Vorpal, I don't like Feedly
16:09:42 <HackEgo> 980) <elliott> also did you learn Haskell yet <Bike> i think i've got most of it now what are these "type" things
16:09:50 <HackEgo> 981) <boily> it's raining in newcastle, therefore the elliotts are distinct. <tswett> boily's Newcastle Theorem.
16:09:56 <HackEgo> 982) <ais523> there's more evidence that scammers exist, than that, say, the average Nigerian exists
16:10:02 <HackEgo> 983) <ais523> is it March 3? <olsner> on some dates, yes
16:10:10 <HackEgo> 984) <zzo38> Two eggs costs less than one egg, but if you buy two eggs, you must eat both. Does linear logic do this?
16:10:11 <Vorpal> Taneb, okay, haven't had much time to use it. Just got home today.
16:10:15 <Vorpal> Taneb, what is the issue with it?
16:10:26 <Taneb> I just find it awkward to use
16:10:44 <Vorpal> I can say I don't like the android client, though it is usable, but the desktop interface (in chrome at least) seems okay
16:10:53 <Vorpal> but yes, google reader is better
16:10:54 <HackEgo> 985) <Sgeo> o.O OS/2 is what became NT? I didn't really know what OS/2 was
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16:22:43 <ThatOtherPerson> This is quite a welcoming channel, I was welcomed to it before I even joined
16:23:19 <ais523> `welcome ThatOtherPerson
16:23:26 <HackEgo> ThatOtherPerson: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:23:41 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: names: not found
16:24:24 <fungot> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
16:25:08 <ais523> what is ^list a list of?
16:25:13 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: now i'll go make a feathejs.git it for
16:27:22 <Jafet> ais523: names listed by ^list
16:27:32 <ais523> I think some of the lists exist purely to confuse people about what they're lists of
16:27:42 <ais523> Jafet: I will laugh so much if that is the actual reason
16:28:04 <monqy> ais523: if only it were so simple. . .
16:28:10 <coppro> if memory serves, ^list is the homestuck list
16:28:26 <coppro> there's ^olist for oots
16:28:28 <coppro> not sure about the others
16:28:30 <ais523> why is one in fungot and the rest in HackEgo anyway?
16:28:31 <fungot> ais523: so is precise garbage collection means it knows exactly what you want to discuss that on ideologies, there are
16:28:48 <monqy> ais523: because there's only one "rest", presumably
16:28:51 <coppro> which I think that fungot has answered admirably
16:28:52 <fungot> coppro: how do you say that 5kz is not correct, but not copyright encumberance)) instead
16:28:57 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: cannot access bin/*list: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access bin/*list: No such file or directory
16:29:08 <ais523> oh did someone delete `list sneakily?
16:29:08 <Jafet> `run echo bin/*list*
16:29:11 <HackEgo> bin/list bin/listen bin/lists
16:29:11 <elliott> hm how do globs work again
16:29:18 <HackEgo> tail -n +2 $0 | xargs echo; exit 0 \ list
16:29:24 <ais523> elliott: they work fine but you forgot the `run
16:29:26 <Sgeo> ais523, there was slist on HAckEgo which was the Homestuck list, but someone deleted it
16:29:32 <Sgeo> and ^list was a backup
16:29:43 <ais523> also what does `lists do?
16:29:57 <ais523> I'm trying to work it out
16:30:19 <ais523> oh, I see, it's a really convluted way to write "echo list"
16:30:48 <coppro> theorem: mathematicians need more pronounceable names
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16:31:06 <ais523> designed so you can easily append to it
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16:31:25 <monqy> coppro: ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
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16:32:15 <ais523> coppro: would it be OK to take one mathematician, and give him or her a lot of pronounceable names?
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16:34:05 <coppro> monqy: proof: paul erwhat?
16:35:02 <ais523> bleh, now I've forgotten how to type a double acute
16:35:21 <ais523> it's perfectly pronounceable if you know how to pronounce Hungarian
16:35:30 <ais523> which is a very orthogonal and phonetic language
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16:35:49 <coppro> yes, but I don't know how!
16:35:53 <monqy> oh i thought coppro was saying there was someone named paul erwhat and i was trying to figure out how thats hard to pronounce
16:35:57 <coppro> I'm a mathematician, not a linguist!
16:36:04 <monqy> but then i got lost in how good of a name erwhat is
16:36:34 <ais523> coppro: hungarian ő is basically like german ö but a bit longer
16:36:47 <ais523> whereas hungarian ö is like german ö but a bit shorter
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16:37:06 <coppro> that would be helpful if I could pronounce german
16:37:54 <ais523> the closest sound in English is probably "er" or "ouer", but it's not exactly the same
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16:39:25 <monqy> clearly the correct solution is to get on a first name basis
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16:42:16 <lmt> uhaeheuhuhaheheuaha
16:42:31 -!- lmt has set topic: The most welcoming channel on Freenode. You have been warned. | <Taneb> #esoteric is supposed to be about esoteric programming languages, but is really a couple of dozen people being weird | Newsflash: fungot has been writing spam for money. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | uhueueheuehueahuahuehuaha.
16:42:37 <lmt> huehuehuehuehueha
16:42:41 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:43:01 <lmt> `welcome huehahauheueha
16:43:05 <HackEgo> huehahauheueha: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:43:22 <lmt> elliott: hue hue hue hue
16:43:40 <Bike> always good to hear.
16:43:44 <elliott> do you know words that have letters other than h, u, e or a in them
16:44:08 <Bike> well he said "elliott".
16:44:24 <Bike> wait elliott isn't a "real word" is it
16:44:48 <elliott> well they just copied those from other people
16:44:57 <HackEgo> Wehlcohme to the ihntehrnahtiohnahl huhb fohr ehsohtehrihc prohgrahmmihng lahnguahge dehsihgn ahnd dehployhmehnt! Fohr mohre ihnfohrmahtiohn, chehck ouht ouhr wihki: http://ehsohlahngs.ohrg/wihki/Maihn_Pahge. (Fohr the ohthehr kihnd ohf ehsohtehrihca, try #ehsohtehrihc ohn ihrc.dahl.neht.)
16:44:59 <elliott> you're not allowed to say hello to people
16:45:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/hello: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/hello: cannot execute: Permission denied
16:45:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/hello: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/hello: cannot execute: Permission denied
16:45:30 <Bike> `cat bin/hello
16:46:02 <Bike> `chmod +x bin/hello
16:46:07 <lmt> anyone here into minecraft?
16:46:11 <HackEgo> chmod: missing operand after `+x bin/hello' \ Try `chmod --help' for more information.
16:46:18 <ais523> lmt: that's not really what the channel's about
16:46:24 <monqy> lmt: Sgeo runs the minecraft joint around here
16:46:27 <ais523> redstone probably counts as an esolang
16:46:32 <Bike> `run chmod +x bin/hello
16:46:41 <lmt> ais523: have you *seen* the piston turing machine, it is amazing
16:46:47 <ais523> and there was the whole elliottcraft debacle
16:46:54 -!- ThatOtherPerson has set topic: The most welcoming channel on Freenode. You have been warned. | <Taneb> #esoteric is supposed to be about esoteric programming languages, but is really a couple of dozen people being weird | Newsflash: fungot has been writing spam for money. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
16:47:02 <lmt> ais523: this turing machine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X21HQphy6I
16:47:20 <ais523> lmt: it's a youtube link and I don't follow those at work (nor the rest of the time, very often, either)
16:47:28 <lmt> well it's a turing machine
16:47:30 <lmt> with MOVABLE TAPE
16:47:40 <ais523> effectively infinite, until it hits floating point issues?
16:47:42 <lmt> actual tape that actually moves
16:47:55 <lmt> no it's effectively finite because you need a piston once in a while to keep pushing it
16:47:55 <ais523> if it's finite I'm not interested ;)
16:48:02 <lmt> but still it MOVES
16:48:17 <lmt> i don't think i've ever seen that before
16:48:21 <lmt> a physically moving tape
16:48:52 <lmt> i suppose you could make it infinite by generating your world with a script
16:48:54 <ais523> lmt: perhaps you need to play more Rubicon :)
16:48:55 <elliott> lmt: there was a physical TM that did that too
16:48:59 <monqy> i have some tape over to my left but it's too sticky to move
16:49:02 <lmt> elliott: legos?
16:49:07 <elliott> lmt: http://aturingmachine.com/
16:49:19 <ais523> although that was finite due to the finite playfield, I made one with a moving cyclic tag queue
16:49:21 <lmt> that's awesome
16:50:19 <ais523> actually if you're making turing machines in physics simulators, moving the tape tends to be the easiest way
16:50:41 <lmt> as in minecraft
16:50:59 <lmt> btw have we ever resolved that issue
16:51:18 <lmt> of whether an infinite program that itself is generated by a finite algorithm qualifies for anything
16:51:36 <elliott> i think if the program is repeating it's considered ok
16:51:44 <elliott> since you have to do that for e.g. even game of life to qualify
16:51:50 <lmt> as in an infinite minecraft world
16:51:54 <lmt> with infinite tape in it
16:51:58 <lmt> and pistons to push it
16:52:09 <elliott> with minecraft the implementation has limitations that stop it being infinite, but I guess an "idealised Minecraft" with a predefined world algorithm is TC
16:52:13 <ais523> lmt: that's the issue I'm arguing with the wolfram people over
16:52:16 <elliott> also redstone doesn't work in unloaded chunks
16:52:24 <lmt> elliott: yeah
16:52:27 <elliott> so you have to specify that all chunks are simulated all of the time in idealised minecraft
16:52:28 <Bike> ais523: man have they still not published your thing
16:52:39 <lmt> ais523: they gave you the money right?
16:52:40 <Jafet> Conway's life works on a blank universe
16:52:41 <ais523> Bike: it's not that, they've been asking me for a revised version for years
16:52:54 <Jafet> It can (probably) make tape using a universal constructor
16:53:01 <ais523> Bike: and I don't want to just make a few minor corrections to keep their reviewers happy without actually resolve the underlying issue
16:53:08 <Bike> what's the underlying issue
16:53:10 <lmt> redstone breaks in horrible ways in unloaded chunks :(
16:53:32 <ais523> Bike: that I'm using an infinite nonrepeating initialization
16:53:39 <ais523> which is not in general considered OK
16:53:45 <ais523> so I need to explain why it's OK in this specific case
16:53:46 <lmt> i made an awesome music machine but once you walk away from it and come back, it's probably so broken that even a reset button won't fix it
16:53:57 <lmt> so you need to make sure you turn it off every time you walk away from it
16:54:03 <lmt> stupid redstone
16:54:07 <Bike> i thought your paper covered that already
16:54:24 <Bike> you can generate the pattern subTCly or whatever
16:54:29 <lmt> ais523: imo it should be okay if it's generated by a finite algorithm
16:54:30 <elliott> ais523: it isn't actually OK, is it?
16:54:39 <ais523> elliott: well I think it is or can be modified to be
16:54:43 <ais523> but defining that is hard
16:54:45 <lmt> oh and if it can be generated on demand
16:54:45 <elliott> Bike: well you can have two non-conventionally-TC machines that you can hook up to make a TC system, I believe
16:54:53 <lmt> instead of generating it all at once
16:54:55 <ais523> Bike: yeah but that's a really really informal argument
16:55:07 <ais523> I guess the really informal argument is "you can look at how the simulation works and it obviously isn't cheating"
16:55:12 <ais523> but mathematicians don't like that one for some reason
16:55:26 <lmt> as long as they give you money, who cares what they like
16:55:29 <nooodl> wow this http://aturingmachine.com/ thing is extremely cute
16:55:29 <ais523> elliott: I'm not sure; cpressey tried to do that and failed
16:55:32 <Bike> so what would a formal argument be because at some point it just seems like who cares
16:55:33 <lmt> also, wolfram sucks
16:55:45 <ais523> Bike: I'm not sure, why do you think I haven't submitted the revised paper?
16:56:39 <ais523> anyway wolfram pretty much discouraged me from working on it
16:56:42 <Bike> drawing strict boundaries between this-is-the-TC-system and this-is-the-background seems i dunno unworkable
16:56:56 <Bike> it's my understanding that wolfram is a megawanker
16:57:00 <ais523> when he asked me to go meet him in cambridge, and gave me a huge sheaf full of corrections they wanted, and he just basically assumed that there were no mathematical issues without reading it at all
16:57:08 <ais523> also left to eat lunch without offering me any
16:57:12 <ais523> luckily I'd thought to eat before the meeting
16:57:35 <lmt> at least you got to meet.. the great stephen wolfram
16:57:48 <ais523> there's at least one fallacious proof in ANKOS because it makes a similar incorrect assumption (that the details don't matter)
16:57:50 <ais523> but I managed to fix that one
16:58:29 <nooodl> his holiness stephen wolfram"
16:58:48 <monqy> a new kind of idk something
16:58:52 <elliott> pope for stephen wolfram (you guys know stephen wolfram is a position not a person right)
16:58:59 <elliott> monqy: a new kind of theology??
16:59:18 <Bike> oh right didn't we decide on a whatever-you-call-that-thing-you-do-with-Muhammad-peace-be-upon-him foir wolfram
16:59:24 <Bike> stephen wolfram fuck that guy or suchlike
16:59:32 <elliott> to date there have been 34 stephen wolframs
16:59:42 <Jafet> A new kind of stephen
16:59:44 <Bike> fuck that position?
16:59:46 <Bike> fuck that fuck
16:59:52 <ais523> but yeah, if people are interested in this, http://esolangs.org/wiki/1cnis is a start
16:59:53 <elliott> they all get expert makeovers to make them look like the previous one
17:00:05 <elliott> so far all of them have died in office
17:00:13 <Bike> elliott are you writing ankos fanfiction
17:00:21 <ais523> I'd love to prove that a legal initialization pattern for the 2,3 machine can be generated by 1cnis
17:00:25 <ais523> but so far I haven't even managed that
17:00:30 <monqy> i hear fanfiction has a nasty tendency to be erotic
17:00:47 <elliott> well ankos fanfiction can only have stephen wolfram in it i think
17:00:49 <ais523> I'd like to collaborate with #esoteric on this, at least; if you lot think it's important, it's important to me
17:00:52 <elliott> so it'd have to be necrophilia
17:00:58 <ais523> elliott: it can have other people whose job is to be irrelevant
17:01:02 <elliott> and i'm just not sure we can go down that route
17:01:31 <monqy> i'm sure someone would be into it
17:01:34 <lmt> "and now", stephen murmured into my ear as I unbuttoned his shirt, "we shall play... the game of life"
17:02:28 <Jafet> "Today's rule is rule 110"
17:02:37 <elliott> i think wolfram probably hates gol because it isn't one of his
17:02:42 <lmt> rule 34 automaton
17:02:46 <elliott> you could make some really stupid rule 34 joke here but
17:02:55 <lmt> ban elliott
17:02:56 <elliott> guys I hate myself and I hate everyone else
17:03:04 <Bike> i'd love to, ais523, but unfortunately i'm incompetent
17:03:10 <boily> what the wolfram is going on in this channel...
17:03:23 <ais523> boily: reading scrollback may or may not help
17:03:28 <nooodl> "ankos fanfiction" is literally just a setup for that joke
17:03:36 <elliott> boily: we're trying to recover lmt's vowels
17:03:42 <ais523> elliott: what you can do is link to the xkcd comic where he calls rule 34 on wolframs' rule 34
17:03:49 <ais523> and annoy everyone at once
17:03:55 <elliott> well ais523 I see a fundamental problem with that plan
17:03:59 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o lmt.
17:04:00 <elliott> and it's that I'd never be able to sleep at night again
17:04:05 -!- lmt has set channel mode: -b dbelange*!*@*.
17:04:08 -!- lmt has set channel mode: -o lmt.
17:04:10 <monqy> is lmt banning elliott
17:04:19 -!- dbelange has joined.
17:04:19 <Bike> who the hell is dbelange
17:04:30 <Bike> `welcome dbelange
17:04:33 <HackEgo> dbelange: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:04:42 <Bike> elliott: if my public service is any indication you can't do that anyway!
17:05:28 <boily> dbelange: do you speak french, by chance?
17:05:50 <dbelange> if that is your idea of esoteric
17:06:08 <boily> *pickled laughter*
17:06:17 <nooodl> oh this reminds me i have a French Question i can't find the answer to
17:06:38 <boily> hm? go ahead, maybe I'll answer. maybe I'll even answer correctly!
17:06:54 <monqy> maybe i'll answer but it sure as heck won't be correct
17:06:55 <nooodl> why's it "par consquent", but "en consquence"
17:07:17 <nooodl> "consquent" is an adjective, isn't it... how does "par" + adjective even work
17:07:20 <elliott> don't trust boily he's from qùébëč
17:07:25 <elliott> unfortunately i could not get compose to put an accent over that q
17:07:30 <tromp__> ais523: is the background pattern an automatic sequence? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_sequence
17:08:07 <boily> elliott: I modified my layout the other day to be able to get about every possible accent. nothing works on q, to my knowledge :(
17:08:13 <ais523> tromp__: I don't know, but that looks like a pretty promising link
17:08:33 <tromp__> that should qualify it as sufficiently simple
17:08:43 <elliott> boily: do none of the combining characters render properly?
17:08:52 <monqy> http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_type_an_accented_q
17:08:54 <Bike> is that a macron, are you a wizard
17:09:18 <boily> elliott: combining chars work properly, but there ain't no precomposed q with nothing that I know of.
17:09:21 <ais523> actually I've been using COMBINING MACRON a lot recently, in quickly typed up notes in gedit
17:09:50 -!- Broly has joined.
17:09:53 <Bike> how do you type a spanish Q?
17:10:18 <Bike> Q is Q in Spanish.
17:10:18 -!- md_5 has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in).
17:10:22 <ais523> Bike: combining character goes after the character it combines on
17:10:29 -!- nooodl has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:10:56 -!- nooodl has joined.
17:10:59 <Broly> i'm not esoteric but i am eccentric
17:11:07 <HackEgo> Broly: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:11:19 <Broly> how dare you mention dal net in front of an efnetter
17:11:21 <boily> nooodl: I have no idea about the «conséquent/conséquence» thing.
17:11:26 -!- Broly has left.
17:11:33 <ais523> tromp__: oh, looking at the substitution point of view, I don't think that's enough power
17:11:48 <ais523> Bike: a major IRC server
17:11:48 <monqy> Bike: have you never heard of efnet
17:11:51 <monqy> Bike: have you never heard of dal
17:11:51 <ais523> presumably it's rivals with dalnet
17:11:59 <ais523> or Broly wouldn't have had that reaction
17:12:09 <Bike> rivals. irc rivals? is that a thing
17:12:14 <ais523> now I'm reminded of that bash.org oneliner, "what the fuck is wtf"
17:12:17 -!- Broly has joined.
17:12:17 <monqy> one time ive been on efnet and another time ive been on dal but i didnt actually DO anything there
17:12:22 <ais523> Bike: and it's probably a thing
17:12:32 <Broly> color script bitch ass nagas
17:12:37 <tromp__> even proving that it's not automatic would be a publishable result
17:12:43 <Bike> like the snake things?
17:12:47 <monqy> i hear dal is full of crepes
17:12:48 <Broly> yep the serpents from wow
17:12:54 <elliott> ais523: theyre snake people
17:12:57 <Bike> they're not from wow, they're from mythology :(
17:12:58 <nooodl> oops i stoly monqy's joke
17:12:59 <Broly> dalnet is probably pedo central and color scripts aplenty
17:13:01 <nooodl> do you want it back monqy
17:13:01 <ais523> elliott: yeah I know, from NetHack and the like
17:13:09 <monqy> nooodl: nah it's fine it's pretty bad
17:13:13 <elliott> monqy stole monqy's joke from xkcd :-/
17:13:16 <ais523> I don't think freenode has any major enemies
17:13:17 <Broly> i remember when i was 11 years old i pretended i was some guy from 5ive and would get nudies from random hoes on teenchat
17:13:28 <ais523> I don't really like that side of IRC
17:13:40 <ais523> sensible discussions about programming and the like are so much more interesting
17:13:57 <Broly> there are many more intelligible topics of conversation
17:14:06 <Broly> but they take effort
17:14:07 <Bike> not interested in sick porn, ais? prude
17:14:28 <monqy> porn of terminally ill people
17:14:30 <Broly> i am pretty sure every little 11 year old wanted nudies of hot chicks
17:14:34 <ais523> Bike: there are so many fetishes in existence, that I doubt there's anyone who's interested in /all/ porn
17:14:46 <Broly> not pedo porn, that's gross
17:14:54 <boily> Broly: who are you. you are not me.
17:15:04 <lmt> boily: yes he is
17:15:11 <Bike> boily: it's ok, he has a unique two letter prefix.
17:15:19 <ais523> what's that channel that kicks everyone from the channel simultaneously and sets it to invite only, then invites you?
17:15:20 <Broly> that sounds like a name for a big pet boil someone would keep
17:15:52 <Bike> illegal pornography
17:15:56 <monqy> some efnetter caught wind of something something dalnet
17:16:01 <ais523> ThatOtherPerson: I think we've been invaded
17:16:02 <elliott> ais523: /msg chanserv clear users #channel
17:16:03 <Bike> god knows, thatotherperson
17:16:06 <Broly> he suggested i check out dalnet
17:16:23 <ais523> oh, it's not as dramatic as it used to be
17:16:29 <Bike> robots aren't people broly
17:16:43 <Broly> it looked like an automated msg
17:16:45 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
17:16:49 <Broly> but it doesn't change the fact that it has dalnet in it
17:17:08 <monqy> the one time i connected to efnet and then quit i think the motd had a unicorn in it? that sounds about right.
17:17:10 <Broly> dalnet doesn't deserve to be in any pre-set message
17:17:14 <HackEgo> Broly: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:17:16 <HackEgo> BROLY: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
17:17:25 <ais523> hey, how did the color code get into `relcome?
17:17:31 -!- Broly has left.
17:17:39 <Bike> good job, elliott. gjelliott.
17:17:41 <ais523> I didn't even realise the channel was colors-allowed
17:17:58 <ion> `run cat bin/relcome
17:17:59 <Bike> you could +c if you dislike it i guess.
17:18:00 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | colorize
17:18:01 <elliott> Bike: i actually apologised to him in /msg first time he quit because i had the feeling there were new levels of stupidity to reach that we deserved to see
17:18:14 <ion> `run welcome | hyphenate.fi | colorize
17:18:17 <HackEgo> Wel-co-me to the in-ter-na-ti-o-nal hub for e-so-te-ric prog-ram-ming lan-gu-a-ge de-sign and dep-lo-y-ment! For mo-re in-for-ma-ti-on, check out our wi-ki: http://e-so-langs.org/wi-ki/Main_Pa-ge. (For the ot-her kind of e-so-te-ri-ca, try #e-so-te-ric on irc.dal.net.)
17:18:22 <elliott> Bike: it was a long hard battle to get -c here don't undo our progress
17:18:29 <ais523> aha, the command I was thinking of was /cs recover
17:18:35 <nooodl> `run welcome | uuu | hyphenate.fi | colorize
17:18:37 <Bike> Oh, are freenode channels +c by default?
17:18:38 <HackEgo> Uuuuuuu uu uuu uuuuuuuuuuuuu uuu uuu uuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuu uuuuuu uuu uuuuuuuuuu! Uuu uuuu uuuuuuuuuuu, uuuuu uuu uuu uuuu: uuuu://uuuuuuuu.uuu/uuuu/Uuuu_Uuuu. (Uuu uuu uuuuu uuuu uu uuuuuuuuu, uuu #uuuuuuuu uu uuu.uuu.uuu.)
17:18:59 <ais523> "More precisely, everyone will be deopped, limit and clear will be cleared, all bans matching you are removed, a ban exception matching you is added (in case of bans Atheme can't see), the channel is set invite-only and moderated and you are invited."
17:19:03 <Bike> this place is no fun, let's move to dal, they know how to party
17:19:04 <ais523> that's pretty dramatic
17:19:16 <Bike> ais523: the final solution of irc moderation
17:19:17 <elliott> ais523: that sounds like fun, let's try it out
17:19:27 <Jafet> `run welcome | hyphenate | uuu | sed 's/dal/efnet/' | rainwords
17:19:30 <HackEgo> bash: hyphenate: command not found
17:19:35 <Jafet> `run welcome | hyphenate.fi | uuu | sed 's/dal/efnet/' | rainwords
17:19:38 <HackEgo> Uuu-uu-uu uu uuu uu-uuu-uu-uu-u-uuu uuu uuu u-uu-uu-uuu uuuu-uuu-uuuu uuu-uu-u-uu uu-uuuu uuu uuu-uu-u-uuuu! Uuu uu-uu uu-uuu-uu-uu-uu, uuuuu uuu uuu uu-uu: uuuu://u-uu-uuuuu.uuu/uu-uu/Uuuu_Uu-uu. (Uuu uuu uu-uuu uuuu uu u-uu-uu-uu-uu, uuu #u-uu-uu-uuu uu uuu.uuu.uuu.)
17:19:59 <elliott> `run cat `which rainwords`
17:20:00 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/python \ import random; w=[l.split() for l in open("/dev/stdin").read().split("\n")]; r=[4,7,8,9,2,13,6]; print "\n".join((lambda s: " ".join(chr(3) + str(r[(i+s)%len(r)]) + l[i] for i in range(len(l))))(random.randrange(0, len(r))) for l in w)
17:20:03 <ion> `run grep bin/*
17:20:06 <HackEgo> Binary file bin/fortune matches \ Binary file bin/tclkit matches
17:20:17 <elliott> what does rainwords do??????????????????????????????
17:20:22 <elliott> `run echo hello tset | rainwords
17:20:46 <fizzie> Also a predefined cycle of.
17:20:47 <monqy> i hear uk has a lot of rain dont you see those things
17:20:49 <elliott> oh i guess rainbows are technically made of rain
17:20:55 <Jafet> `run rainwords </usr/share/dict
17:20:56 <HackEgo> Python error: <stdin> is a directory, cannot continue
17:21:03 <Jafet> `run rainwords </usr/share/dict/words
17:21:05 <HackEgo> bash: /usr/share/dict/words: No such file or directory
17:21:20 <ais523> elliott: no they're made of sunlight
17:21:25 <ais523> the rain is responsible for making them
17:22:07 <Jafet> `fetch en.wikipedia.org/wiki/rainbow
17:22:11 <HackEgo> 2013-03-18 17:22:09 URL:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow [138931/138931] -> "rainbow" [1]
17:22:17 <Jafet> `rainwords <rainbow
17:22:18 <elliott> ais523: technically they are made of rainbow
17:22:58 <Jafet> `run rainwords <rainbow
17:23:00 <HackEgo> <!DOCTYPE html> \ <html lang="en" dir="ltr" class="client-nojs"> \ <head> \ <title>Rainbow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</title> \ <meta charset="UTF-8" /> \ <meta name="generator" content="MediaWiki .21wmf11" /> \ <link rel="apple-touch-icon" href="//en.wikipedia.org/apple-touch-icon.pn
17:23:12 <ion> `run welcome | hyphenate.fi | perl -CS -Mutf8 -pwe 'y/!-~/！-～/; y/ / /' | colorize
17:23:14 <lambdabot> Gregor: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
17:23:16 <HackEgo> Ｗｅｌ－ｃｏ－ｍｅ ｔｏ ｔｈｅ ｉｎ－ｔｅｒ－ｎａ－ｔｉ－ｏ－ｎａｌ ｈｕｂ ｆｏｒ ｅ－ｓｏ－ｔｅ－ｒｉｃ ｐｒｏｇ－ｒａｍ－ｍｉｎｇ ｌａｎ－ｇｕ－ａ－ｇｅ ｄｅ－ｓｉｇｎ ａｎｄ ｄｅｐ－ｌｏ－ｙ－ｍｅｎｔ！ Ｆｏｒ ｍ
17:23:50 <ais523> why do we have so many welcome variants anyway?
17:23:53 <lmt> can i use rainwords as a syntax highlighting plugin
17:23:56 <ais523> I don't really understand why they're useful
17:24:00 <fizzie> It seems that colorize thinks of characters, not bytes.
17:24:40 <elliott> ion: we have a script for fulltext welcome
17:24:56 <fizzie> (How come there's no handy "widenize" keyword for that bit of Perl?)
17:25:14 <elliott> ais523: so you don't have to type that perl onelnier
17:25:21 <fizzie> ais523: It's all to make people feel extra-welcome, I think.
17:25:56 <ais523> I guess the topic is at fault
17:26:08 <ais523> elliott: do you still have optbot around?
17:26:12 -!- lmt has set topic: The least welcoming channel on Freenode. You have been warned. | <Taneb> #esoteric is supposed to be about esoteric programming languages, but is really a couple of dozen people being weird | Newsflash: fungot has been writing spam for money. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
17:26:28 <ais523> (today is worse than average in terms of random line quality, so `pastlog will be marginally better than `log)
17:26:55 <HackEgo> 2003-09-10.txt:07:59:59: -!- clog has quit (ended).
17:27:19 <elliott> ais523: I don't have optbot, but it's easy to write it
17:27:21 <ais523> it'll act as an obituary for clog, except that it's still here
17:27:26 <elliott> that's what I usually do when I want optbot back
17:27:29 <HackEgo> 2008-03-06.txt:03:34:35: <oklofok> it's so awesome, you could say "awesome is cise", and not be wrong.
17:27:41 <elliott> last time I revived optbot a few people whineda bout it existing though
17:27:45 <ais523> and even vaguely ontopic
17:27:53 <ais523> elliott: insufficiently many for it to be an official bot?
17:27:59 <ais523> hey quick someone invent a new bf joust strategy
17:28:08 <monqy> istr knowing what optbot was but then i forgot
17:28:19 <elliott> ais523: well a certain few people were vocal about their dislike of its valuable topic-changing service
17:28:28 <elliott> ais523: whereby vocal means, one of them created a bot specifically to revert optbot's topic-changes
17:28:39 <ais523> antioptbot was hilarious
17:28:43 <elliott> n.b. this is really stupid
17:28:56 <monqy> antioptbot sounds cute
17:29:00 <ion> elliott: Yes, but it didn’t have hyphenate.fi in the middle.
17:29:09 <lmt> what's .fi
17:29:24 <ais523> or in this case, more likely language code for finnish
17:29:49 <elliott> http://hypenate.fi/ should be a web interface to hyphenate.fi
17:29:59 <ais523> what is it actually? NXDOMAIN?
17:30:04 <elliott> telnet hyphenate.fi a netcat interface, etc.
17:30:18 <elliott> hyphenate.fi appears to not exist
17:30:26 <Taneb> HackEgo runs on New Zealand English?
17:30:32 <ais523> why do we need a web service for everything anyway?
17:30:41 <ais523> I'd rather have a local executable for hyphenating Finnish, than a webservice
17:30:56 <lmt> i always knew finnish was an esoteric language
17:31:00 <monqy> but then how will you hyphenate finnish on your smartphone
17:31:01 <ais523> Taneb: my theory is that it runs on en_NZ specifically to cause people to ask why it runs on en_NZ
17:31:15 <ion> elliott: That would cost moneys. :-(
17:31:39 <ais523> because I don't think we have any new zealanders here
17:31:54 <ais523> whereas there is one former-regular who was south african
17:32:05 <fizzie> "Because people complained when I set it to zh_TW" is what Gregor last answered when it was asked.
17:32:06 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:32:30 <lmt> of course they would
17:32:34 <lmt> that's a political statement
17:32:37 <Jafet> `run sed -e '1,/mw-content-text/ d' -e 's/<[^>]*>//g' <rainbow | tr \\n \ | rainwords
17:32:39 <HackEgo> Double rainbow and supernumerary rainbows on the inside of the primary arc. The shadow of the photographer's head on the bottom marks the centre of the rainbow circle (antisolar point). A rainbow is an optical and meteorological phenomenon that is caused by
17:32:52 <Gregor> fizzie: And that is the reason.
17:33:08 <ion> It almost looks like a triple rainbow.
17:33:09 <elliott> hmm, those two magentas are very close
17:33:11 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
17:33:16 <fizzie> Gregor: Well, we'll all form our own opinions on that.
17:33:23 <monqy> the two magentas look pretty different to me
17:33:24 <ais523> oh wait, I know why I'm confused
17:33:26 -!- tos9 has joined.
17:33:29 <ais523> I set my client to filter out colors
17:33:32 <lmt> yes, very different magentas
17:33:37 <ais523> but some of them are showing anyway
17:33:56 <fizzie> ^rainbow2 has a different (longer) set of colors, but it's not any more rainbowy.
17:33:56 <fungot> ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ...too much output!
17:34:23 <fizzie> It also has the greyscale gradient in it.
17:34:30 <lmt> that is not a rainbow.
17:34:59 <fizzie> ^rainbow Everything is a rainbow in your HEART.
17:35:00 <fungot> Everything is a rainbow in your HEART.
17:35:19 <elliott> monqy: they can't look different to you because we use the same irc client and terminal.......
17:35:37 <monqy> elliott: but do we use the same eyes alt. monitor configs alt. colorsets alt.
17:35:42 <ais523> you might have different color profiles on your screens
17:35:52 <elliott> monqy: i've used monqy's eyes since 2012-01-04
17:36:02 <elliott> they're a 2.17x improvement over my previous eyes
17:36:07 -!- edwardk has joined.
17:37:24 -!- md_5 has joined.
17:37:56 <Gregor> (He now has 4.34 eyes)
17:38:49 <ais523> `bfjoust does_this_work_yet (>)*8(>[-])*21
17:38:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bfjoust: not found
17:38:54 <ais523> !bfjoust does_this_work_yet (>)*8(>[-])*21
17:39:08 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_does_this_work_yet: 15.9
17:39:29 <Gregor> Unfortunately, Codu is once again running near its load limit, though I don't precisely know why *sigh*
17:39:34 <ais523> !bfjoust does_this_work_yet (>)*8(>[>(>[-])*21])*21
17:39:37 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_does_this_work_yet: 9.9
17:39:41 <ais523> !bfjoust does_this_work_yet (>)*8(>[(>[-])*21])*21
17:39:45 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_does_this_work_yet: 7.1
17:39:51 <ais523> !bfjoust does_this_work_yet (>)*8(>[(>>>+++++[-])*21])*21
17:39:55 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_does_this_work_yet: 2.9
17:40:02 <ais523> I guess it doesn't work yet
17:40:57 <fizzie> fungot: How many eyes have you got?
17:40:57 <fungot> fizzie: ummm......what were we talking about again? :)
17:41:06 <fizzie> fungot: Eyes. Have you got them?
17:41:06 <fungot> fizzie: in implementations with fast call/ cc actually does have a point
17:41:50 * ais523 is reminded of Subtle Cough
17:42:02 <ais523> IIRC that only had three essentially different programs, didn't it?
17:43:22 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
17:43:44 <fizzie> I'm still leading the "ends a line with ? and a space" statistics: http://sprunge.us/Cfgg
17:44:32 <Gregor> Man, I'm at 3? When the hell did I ever boff up and do that...
17:44:42 <ais523> ooh, I'm not even on the list
17:44:51 <ais523> presumably you mean "? ", not " ?"?
17:45:10 <ais523> enigma has different floors !
17:45:40 <fizzie> ais523: You have a 1 in my logs, if one looks at the full list: http://sprunge.us/eGcV
17:45:43 <ais523> (the game never actually says that)
17:46:08 -!- Taneb has joined.
17:46:14 <monqy> wow i have one???how did that happen
17:46:22 <monqy> and not happen more
17:46:26 <HackEgo> 2012-01-12.txt:12:21:33: <ais523> <fungebob> cpressey: ever consider a timecube esolang?
17:46:39 <ais523> fizzie: I was quoting someone else, that doesn't count
17:47:01 <HackEgo> 2012-12-14.txt:23:05:57: <monqy> % of fungot quotes present in qdb actually verbatim???
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17:47:40 <lmt> what's the syntax for log
17:48:05 <elliott> in fact, it doesn't actually exist. HackEgo is just a very helpful person
17:48:10 <lmt> ok then i'll just copy it without understanding anything
17:48:14 <lmt> `log <lament>.*\?\ $
17:48:37 <Bike> good implicit denial of chomskyism elliott
17:49:01 <lmt> Pitifully Crappy Regular Expressions
17:49:32 <ais523> it acts like a subset, at least
17:49:34 <Bike> perl incompatible irregular expressions
17:49:56 <ais523> OK, it isn't PCRE, but it's accepted every PCRE-compatible expression I've tried to feed to it
17:50:01 <ais523> although admittedly I haven't tried very many
17:50:09 <Bike> perl compatible regular expression compatible
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17:51:19 <Gregor> Bike: Perl Compatible Regular Expression Compatible Expression
17:51:35 <ais523> `log ^(.{2,}{2,}$(*COMMIT)(*FAIL)|.)
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17:51:58 <ais523> that expression, if I've translated it correctly from Prolog, should match lines with a prime number of characters
17:51:59 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ grep -P -i -- "$1" ????-??-??.txt | shuf -n 1 \ else \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(shuf -n 1 $file)" \ fi
17:52:10 <Bike> library that determines if a given library has perl-compatible regexes
17:52:12 <lmt> might as well say perl compatible regular expression compatible regular expression
17:52:34 <ais523> Bike: drop-in replacement for that library
17:52:42 <Bike> what the heck is commit, oh man
17:53:20 <Bike> backtracking verbs. backtracking verbs
17:53:21 <ais523> Bike: it's like an indirect cut in Prolog, makes the entire expression fail if you backtrack into it
17:54:06 <Bike> man at least snobol didn't pretend its matching was regular
17:54:15 <ais523> for smaller cuts, you have (*SKIP) that causes the expression to only be able to match in a different place, and (*PRUNE) that works exactly like a prolog cut
17:54:42 <ais523> and really, the only reason Perl calls them regexes nowadays is that it has to call them /something/
17:54:49 <ais523> elliott: do Perl regexen count as an esolang?
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17:55:00 <elliott> ais523: if you call them "regexen" then yes.
17:55:10 <monqy> there's that `funny page, about perl isnt there. heh heh.
17:55:11 <ais523> the name determines whether they're an esolang?
17:55:16 <ais523> monqy: perl as a whole isn't
17:55:21 <ais523> but some embedded parts of it feel like it
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17:55:29 <ais523> just like compile-time C++ is often considered an esolang
17:55:42 <Bike> ais523: you've seen that regex debugger that had a function that wasn't actually a function but instead looked through the file it was compiled in to find its call site and then analyzed the regex it was passed, right
17:55:43 <elliott> monqy: do you mean the esowiki page about perl. I like that one because of oerjan's interpretation
17:55:45 <monqy> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Perl um wiki begs to differ
17:55:46 <Bike> "pretty esoteric"
17:56:12 <Bike> elliott: that's beautiful
17:56:37 <AnotherTest> ais523: compile time C++ as in metatemplate programming and the likes?
17:56:45 <kmc> i guess drawing the line between 'esolang' and 'language well suited to esoteric programming' is like drawing the line between 'functional language' and whatever
17:56:49 <Bike> hm, what would happen if i made a page for C using that example from unix-hater
17:57:01 <kmc> functional langauge with chinese characteristics
17:57:03 <Bike> i'd start a horrible trend of mocking languages based on syntax probably
17:57:15 <AnotherTest> ais523: I guess, although it is used in real code (especially libraries) too
17:57:30 <ais523> AnotherTest: Boost doesn't count, it's probably the world's finest example of serious esoprogramming
17:57:36 <Bike> kmc: i think i need to adopt that idiom
17:57:58 <Bike> i think that boost parser thing, specifically, is the world's finest example of serious esoprogramming
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17:58:04 <AnotherTest> Also, there's probably a lot more libraries besides boost and loki
17:58:05 <ais523> Bike: all sorts of parts of Boost are wonderful
17:58:12 <Bike> yes but especially the parser
17:58:12 <ais523> I should probably read its source some day
17:58:22 <Bike> you know the one, the one that makes a parser out of templates
17:58:26 <ais523> comp.lang.c particularly likes the preprocessor library
17:58:26 <Bike> two kilobyte symbol names etc
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17:58:32 <ais523> partly because that's the only part they're allowed to talk about
17:58:43 <kmc> people tend to judge Boost as a single entity when really it's a huge collection of unrelated libraries by different people
17:58:49 <kmc> many of which are quite simple and sane and essential
17:58:50 <AnotherTest> Great, unless you actually plan on using it (and if you don't have a few hours time to wait until compilation is done)
17:59:00 <Bike> kmc: which is why i'd rather pick out spirit.
17:59:06 <AnotherTest> some people actually wrote compile-time compilers
17:59:19 <ais523> kmc: yes but the insane parts are more fun to talk about
18:00:02 <ais523> I was going to say "why would you make a compile-time compiler anyway"
18:00:05 <ais523> then realised I could think of reasons
18:00:08 <ais523> not /good/ reasons, but…
18:00:28 <Bike> oh i look compile time compilers something something lisp something
18:00:43 <Bike> do compilers count as compile time compilers
18:00:44 <AnotherTest> ais523: one reason would be "because you can"
18:01:00 <AnotherTest> another one would be "because it looks cool"
18:01:09 <Bike> well, i guess JITs and other runtime-accessible compilers don't
18:02:00 <lmt> a compiler that compiles when it does
18:02:02 <AnotherTest> I'd say it is a compiler that compiles its input during compile-time
18:02:19 <ais523> Bike: ThatOtherPerson: my interpretation was "something written in language X, that contains code in language Y, which when compiled compiles language Y into language X and feeds it to the compiler it's being compiled with"
18:02:55 <Bike> ais523: seems pretty usual to me. constant regexes for example
18:03:53 <AnotherTest> Someone should write a compile-time compiler for C++ in C++.
18:04:05 <ais523> Bike: indeed, that's what I meant by saying I could think of reasons
18:04:11 <ais523> but compiling separately seems saner
18:04:19 <AnotherTest> Although, it could be said that that's very easy
18:04:23 <Bike> compiling separately meaning what
18:04:37 <Bike> having a seperate regex->target to go with language->target?
18:05:25 <ais523> and possibly adding the regex→target into the language→target compiler
18:05:32 <Bike> if you compile to language you could use it anywhere language works, though
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18:06:54 <AnotherTest> actually who does anyone still /run/ programs written in C++ these days?
18:07:06 <Bike> was that supposed to be "why"?
18:07:14 <Sgeo> What's XChat written in? What are web browsers written in?
18:07:26 <Bike> because programs written in C++ are super common and work, i imagine
18:07:28 <Sgeo> What's KDE and various KDE programs written in?
18:07:47 <boily> fsvo work, but that goes for about everything.
18:07:56 <ais523> AnotherTest: regardless of what OS you're using, you're likely to be using a program written in C++ at the moment
18:07:56 <ThatOtherPerson> AnotherTest: it's going to be a whole lot faster than anything written in Python or Ruby
18:07:59 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, I very much doubt your computer is completely devoid of machine code that was compiled from C++
18:08:04 <ais523> (the chances are lowest on OS X, out of the widely used OSes)
18:08:07 <Bike> AnotherTest: most windows machines don't have C++ compilers, i don't think
18:08:21 <ais523> Bike: indeed, but most windows programs use precompiled executables
18:08:36 <Vorpal> ais523, on OS X iirc the driver framework in the kernel uses C++
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18:08:43 <Bike> i'm sorry, kmc. we have to establish our programming cred by disparaging languages we know not much about with no reference to specific implementations. it's a fact of life
18:08:50 <lmt> pretty much everything in OS X is written in "Objective C++"
18:08:55 <lmt> which is a superset of C++
18:08:59 <ais523> Bike: don't worry, C++ is a language you're allowed to dislike
18:09:05 <ais523> lmt: transparent trolling attempt?
18:09:11 <Vorpal> lmt, objective C afaik
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18:09:18 <kmc> Objective C++ is a real thing
18:09:23 <kmc> kind of a monstrosity
18:09:23 <ais523> (actually objective C++ actually exists, but objective C is more common)
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18:09:33 <ais523> kmc: I think gcc can compile it
18:09:37 <lmt> objective C++ is extremely common and commonly used by apple
18:09:38 <Vorpal> kmc, true, but it isn't used much on OS X afaik
18:09:46 <kmc> it has the ObjC object model and the C++ object model living together in sin
18:09:53 <Sgeo> How about Subjective C? Subjects instead of objects?
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18:10:08 <kmc> Sgeo: if you google you can find a semi-funny parody about Objectivist C
18:10:10 <Bike> puns about "subjective" and "objectivism" hurt man
18:10:19 <Gregor> If an object model lies with another object model as it does with a paradigm, it shall be stoned to death.
18:10:32 <lmt> objective c++ is pretty bad
18:10:38 <lmt> but it allows you to use c++ libraries
18:10:47 <Bike> kmc: i can't imagine C++ objects and objc objects being very uh, workable together, at all
18:10:50 <lmt> and everything is written in c++, so
18:10:56 <ais523> hmm… most C++ libraries are for games programming
18:11:00 <ThatOtherPerson> Oh, it already exists http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject-oriented_programming
18:11:01 <Gregor> Vorpal: What, you don't like Bible jokes? X-D
18:11:06 <monqy> ooh ooh i have another pun how about a langauge called.......c(incomprehensible squiggles)
18:11:14 <kmc> somebody pointed out that ObjC and C++ are a good demonstration of why syntax isn't everything... C++ is closer to C in syntax but is a beast of a language, 20 times more complicated than C
18:11:19 <ais523> interesting fact about Windows: the vast majority of native-code Windows programs are written in C++, but the system libraries they link against are entirely in C
18:11:28 <AnotherTest> ThatOtherPerson: wait, is this real or did someone just hack wikipedia
18:11:28 <kmc> ObjC has syntax that looks weird to a C programmer but is really a pretty modest extension to the language
18:11:36 <Vorpal> Gregor, I don't think that was the issue in this case. It was just cringe-worthy...
18:11:37 <lmt> Bike: they are just as workable as any kind of incompatible types
18:11:58 <ais523> AnotherTest: anyone (unless they don't have internet access or have been blocked) can create a page on Wikipedia, no hacking required
18:12:07 <ais523> (or do have internet access but can't use a computer for some reason)
18:12:21 <ais523> (or unless they have sufficiently short time to live that they die before they can finish creating the page)
18:12:25 <ais523> (or probably other things I haven't thought of)
18:12:27 <ThatOtherPerson> AnotherTest: if it's in Wikipedia it's real. You can use this fact to modify the universe around you
18:12:28 <Bike> « As illustrated in that paper, an analogy is made with the contrast between the philosophical views of Plato and Kant with respect to the characteristics of “real” objects, but applied to software ones. » programmers you need to stop doing this
18:12:46 <Bike> actually if everyone could just stop making kant agree with them that woud be great
18:12:53 <lmt> is object-oriented programming phallocentric
18:12:56 <Bike> this isn't the nineteenth century and you're not a philosopher
18:13:01 <ais523> ThatOtherPerson: that is actually sadly truer than it might look
18:13:02 <elliott> Bike: I'd like to stop doing that, but I Kant
18:13:10 <kmc> my CS degree automatically makes me an expert in philosophy, medicine, and law
18:13:16 <kmc> because those are for dumb people
18:13:19 <ais523> there are definitely nontrivial ways in which you can modify the universe via editing wikipedia
18:14:14 <Bike> i mean kay was definitely an avid plato reader when he came up with smalltalk but you can't just pretend simula and biology weren't super important
18:14:16 <Vorpal> ais523, hm. Would anyone sane use wikipedia for something important without doing further research?
18:14:27 <Bike> whoa kmc i thought you were serious for a second!!
18:14:31 <kmc> a lot of people do Vorpal
18:14:35 <Sgeo> Do sane people actually exist?
18:14:36 <Vorpal> kmc, I would argue that doing that makes you insane.
18:14:37 <AnotherTest> If there's zen programming, there should be like philosophic programming?
18:14:42 <kmc> Bike: i've realized not everyone knows when i'm kidding
18:14:43 <Vorpal> kmc, thus meaning that they are not sane
18:14:45 <Bike> zen programming, what the fuck is that
18:14:49 <ais523> Vorpal: perhaps; I needed an algorithm for topological sort
18:14:54 <Vorpal> Sgeo, interesting question
18:14:56 <Bike> also "sane" and "insane" are kind of dumb terms
18:15:04 <Bike> neither is even used medically any more!
18:15:05 <kmc> I think for a modest fee you could pay people to listen to everything you say (via hidden microphone / smartphone) and edit Wikipedia in real time so that you're always correct about stuff
18:15:10 <ais523> so I got one off Wikipedia (the algorithm, that is; I implemented the code myself), and it appears to work, and is currently in production code
18:15:13 <kmc> this would be a great trick
18:15:21 <AnotherTest> Bike: I have absolutely no idea what that is
18:15:22 <Vorpal> ais523, was it for use in something important? Or just a hobby project?
18:15:24 <ais523> kmc: you don't need money, just fame
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18:15:34 <ais523> anything that stephen colbert says, for instance
18:15:45 <Bike> kmc: a recent boondocks episode had a judge check wikipedia to see if obama had legalized weed. good stuff
18:15:55 <ais523> although Wikipedia editors have taken to also listening to everything he says so that they can revert attempts by people to add it to articles
18:16:04 <Bike> "hm, doesn't look like he has. oh but several states..."
18:16:20 <ais523> Vorpal: it's in the Verity compiler
18:16:48 <ais523> although I may need to change it for computational order reasons, it turns out that linked lists of pairs are not the most efficient representations of directed possibly-acyclic graphs
18:17:01 <Vorpal> ais523, I wouldn't have done that myself. I would probably have started at wikipedia, but then gone on to check the sources it cited.
18:17:17 <kmc> Bike: that show still exists? woah
18:17:19 <Bike> you need cites for some topological sort pseudocode?
18:17:24 <Bike> kmc: i know, i was surprised too, but there it was
18:17:35 <Bike> episode was about Grandpa smoking weed. good episode
18:17:40 <ais523> Vorpal: yeah but checking to see if the algorithm looks reasonable, and the page hasn't been edited in ages, and there's no clear sign of vandalism
18:17:47 <Vorpal> ais523, that might work
18:17:53 <Vorpal> Bike, If I was going to use it for something in research or production yes
18:18:13 <Bike> i am sloppier than you then, i'd just implement it and check to see that it worked
18:18:33 <Bike> clearly this is why i'm unemployed
18:18:46 <Vorpal> Bike, well, I would be worried about there being some fault that only showed up in some edge cases, if the algorithm was non-trivial at least.
18:18:56 <ais523> Vorpal: it's also quite hard (although not impossible) to hide a logic bomb in a mathematical description of an algorithm
18:19:07 <Bike> i'd be worried about that from the cited pages too
18:19:16 <AnotherTest> Is Internet Relay Programming like human-objected programing?
18:19:18 <ais523> it's happened before now (most famously an accidental self-inflicted one on Knuth), but it's rare
18:19:37 <Bike> i mean we all know the story about that C pearls sort or w/e that had a wraparound error
18:19:53 <Vorpal> Bike, I don't know that story
18:20:08 <ais523> I also don't know that story
18:20:29 <ais523> the one I was thinking about was about concurrent garbage collection, which is a field inherently prone to bizarre edge cases and even corner cases
18:20:40 <kmc> many binary search implementations in C are broken because (left + right) / 2 can overflow
18:20:43 <Bike> basically a commonly repeated binary search algorithm had the usual (hi + lo) /2 to find the median
18:20:49 <Bike> http://googleresearch.blogspot.com/2006/06/extra-extra-read-all-about-it-nearly.html
18:21:11 <kmc> fucking C programmers
18:21:14 <Vorpal> yes, that would be one thing that would worry me
18:21:56 <ais523> Vorpal: that one's at least as likely to come up in a binary search written from scratch
18:22:02 * Bike realizes he made the same error in some quick code he spit out, though it would fall back to bignums so it's just a speed problem
18:22:09 <ais523> and even more likely to come up in academic paper implementations, which don't have to worry about overflow
18:22:13 <kmc> one of Ksplice's upstream Linux contributions was finding the dozens of binary search implementations in Linux, most of which were broken in this way, and replacing them with a library
18:22:32 <Bike> kmc: whoa whoa whoa, code reuse? in real life?
18:22:34 <Vorpal> ais523, which is why you should probably use your standard library if possible
18:22:36 <ais523> kmc: arguably if you have equal-sized ints and pointers, and you're sorting things larger than a single byte
18:22:43 <Phantom_Hoover> doesn't division work like normal in modular arithmetic
18:22:49 <Vorpal> ais523, that is probably the safest bet. Either that or a dedicated math library
18:22:51 <ais523> the overflow can't happen due to the numbers not working large enough
18:22:53 <Bike> what does "like normal" mean
18:22:57 <ais523> addition subtraction multiplication do
18:22:57 <kmc> ais523: maybe you binary search indices rather than pointers
18:23:02 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: the problem is the intermediate hi+lo
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18:23:20 <ais523> Bike: well this isn't even a pedantic "signed overflow is undefined" thing
18:23:24 <ais523> it breaks even on two's complement
18:23:42 <ais523> (btw, what's the most commonly used system that isn't two's complement?)
18:23:48 <olsner> everyone knows overflow doesn't actually ever happen
18:23:50 <Bike> sign and magnitude?
18:24:01 <ais523> no, I meant computer system
18:24:03 <Vorpal> ais523, sign bit, in floats
18:24:11 <Bike> sign and magnitude is a computer system...
18:24:15 <ais523> but two's complement doesn't work with floats
18:24:20 <Bike> i don't think any recent architectures use it of course
18:24:24 <ais523> Bike: well, processor + accompanying electronics
18:24:25 <Vorpal> ais523, you didn't specify integers only
18:24:42 <ais523> architecture is probably the word I was looking for
18:24:45 <Bike> ais523: i'm mostly sure that some old architectures used sign+magnitude for integers
18:25:21 <ais523> elliott: ooh, Verity reached a milestone recently: it got sufficiently good at interacting with other people's systems that it had its first endianness issue
18:25:22 <Bike> i want to say VAX but i say VAX for everything
18:25:35 <ais523> I feel that this is something of a milestone
18:25:36 <Vorpal> ais523, everything modern uses two complement for integer arithmetics afaik. And unsigned division/multiplication of course.
18:25:41 <fizzie> I don't know about relative magnitudes (pun not intended), but it's a well-known fact that sign-and-magnitude, one's-complement and two's-complement are the "big three".
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18:25:56 <ais523> most research languages never get to have endianness issues because they handle all the representations-of-integers themselves
18:25:57 <Bike> older than i thought
18:26:20 <Bike> "This numeric representation system was common in older computers; the PDP-1, CDC 160A and UNIVAC 1100/2200 series, among many others, used ones'-complement arithmetic." okay real old here
18:26:37 <Vorpal> ais523, you might run into bit endianness in verity I presume?
18:26:47 <Bike> we should all use log log representation of everything
18:26:48 <Vorpal> unless I'm thinking of another language
18:26:53 <ais523> fun fact: one's complement is basically as easy to implement in hardware as two's complement, you feed the carry output from the last adder into the carry input of the first
18:26:58 <lmt> sometimes i interview co-op students and ask them what is the advantage of two's complement
18:27:14 <ais523> Vorpal: only possibly in drivers
18:27:18 <ais523> this was a byte endianness issue
18:27:20 <Bike> «Google's Protocol Buffers "zig-zag encoding" is a system similar to sign-and-magnitude, but uses the least significant bit to represent the sign and has a single representation of zero. This has the advantage to make variable-length quantity encoding efficient with signed integers.» ooh, neat
18:27:24 <ais523> lmt: "co-op students"?
18:27:32 <lmt> co-op students
18:27:34 <ais523> luckily I don't have to write the drivers any more
18:27:35 <fizzie> ais523: But you have a more difficult equality comparison, thanks to -0.
18:27:38 <ais523> lmt: as in, what are those?
18:27:38 <Vorpal> ais523, wasn't verity the hardware compiling language?
18:27:50 <lmt> they are students who get temporary internships at companies
18:28:00 <lmt> which somehow count towards their CS degree
18:28:04 <Vorpal> ais523, surely you can run into bit-endianness talking to native vhdl or verilog components then?
18:28:18 <ais523> Vorpal: no because VHDL and Verilog both abstract away bit endianness
18:28:30 <ais523> actually technically speaking VHDL doesn't, but indexing an array forwards will get you lynched
18:28:48 <Vorpal> ais523, I thought you could set whichever direction you wanted in VHDL at least
18:28:54 <ais523> writing std_logic_vector(3 downto 0) is fine
18:28:56 <fizzie> ais523: There's at least one balanced ternary computer too.
18:29:07 <ais523> writing std_logic_vector(0 to 3) will cause everyone to hate you and refuse to work with your code
18:29:21 <ais523> also I think you get at least a warning if you mix endiannesses
18:29:24 <Vorpal> ais523, does that change the endianness? I forgot heh
18:29:34 <ais523> or to put it another way, VHDL does have both endiannesses but one of them won and nobody uses the other one
18:29:57 <Vorpal> ais523, what if you want to change the endianness in order to talk to some external hardware though?
18:30:41 <ais523> Vorpal: you do that by redefining what internal signal is attached to what pin
18:30:58 <Vorpal> ais523, well, for a serial protocol maybe?
18:31:03 <ais523> which needn't necessarily be in any particular order, because the order your pins go in depends on what leads to the most convenient wiring
18:31:05 <Vorpal> I guess that is just over time though
18:31:13 <ais523> for a serial protocol it depends on how you write your modem
18:31:28 <Vorpal> Is modem really the right word here?
18:31:29 <zzo38> ais523: Hopefully, you know some things of Verilog like what I was asking of?
18:31:57 <ais523> zzo38: can you repeat the question? I might know the answer but didn't see the question
18:32:01 <fizzie> I don't think it counts as a modem if there's no MODulation going on.
18:32:07 <ais523> Vorpal: would "codec" be better?
18:32:20 <ais523> fizzie: there is modulation going on, though
18:33:34 <zzo38> ais523: I have various questions, actually. One is, can the I/O ports of a module be vectors that are split across different parts of the I/O list, rather than necessarily being all together?
18:33:35 <fizzie> ais523: Possibly it's an endec. (I think that's a wider concept?)
18:33:53 <Vorpal> ais523, By that definition almost all electronic is a modem
18:33:54 <ais523> encoder/decoder, rather than coder/decoder?
18:34:37 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, and to differentiate from the compressor/decompressor alt of codec.
18:35:38 <fizzie> Wikipedia page on endec suggests that endecs are hardware while codecs are software, but given the page, it's probably just some random jerk's opinion.
18:40:54 <kmc> never heard of endecs before today
18:40:56 <zzo38> ais523: I do have other questions too, such as do you know about Verilog with analog signals too?
18:41:23 <Vorpal> I wonder why my router things that one of my computer's names is in upper case
18:41:25 <ais523> zzo38: Verilog synthesizers don't handle analog signals, and the language does not have very good support for them
18:41:48 <ais523> also, the I/O ports of a module all have to be declared in the same place, but there doesn't have to be any other relation between them
18:41:55 <Vorpal> <kmc> never heard of endecs before today <-- same
18:42:40 <Vorpal> I don't think VHDL does analog signals either?
18:42:54 <Vorpal> Maybe simulation only thingy for logging or something?
18:43:39 <zzo38> ais523: Yes I know that they are declared in the same place, I mean can I declare PRG_A[11:0] and then some other I/O and then PRG_A[12:14] after that (the different direction is deliberate)?
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18:44:13 <ais523> zzo38: no, you can't do that, you're declaring variables and types for them
18:44:31 <ais523> what you can do, and what I often do, is just assign the publicly visible ports to internal variables at the start of your code
18:44:35 <zzo38> Actually I mean inside of the I/O list for the module, rather than the declaration for the types.
18:44:56 <Vorpal> zzo38, try it and see what happens?
18:45:01 <zzo38> ais523: O, OK, if that is how it has to use?
18:45:11 <ais523> zzo38: that's the simplest way I know of
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18:45:56 <zzo38> ais523: Why didn't they make it allowed?
18:46:22 <ais523> zzo38: because it's a programming language, you declare variables and types for them
18:46:35 <ais523> you don't declare half a variable, then the type of that half, and later on decide to add more on to the same variable
18:46:46 <zzo38> But there is a I/O list for the module, isn't it?
18:47:11 <ais523> yes, but that's still a list of parameters and types for them
18:47:18 <zzo38> I agree it doesn't make sense when declaring the type and variable generally, but in the I/O list it seem it should be allowed?
18:47:22 <ais523> in C, you don't do int foo(int a, short b, actually a is a long)
18:47:37 <ais523> you can argue that Verilog should be designed less like a programming language
18:47:48 <ais523> but it was designed as a programming language, and so follows similar conventions
18:49:15 <zzo38> ais523: Of course in C there is no such thing; it would mess up the calling conventions.
18:49:32 <ais523> zzo38: Verilog also has calling conventions, it couldn't be compiled or simulated otherwise
18:50:02 <zzo38> But aren't the Verilog calling conventions just the orders of the bits, or did I do something wrong?
18:50:15 <fizzie> Does MIT still have all their DNS records in UPPER CASE?
18:50:31 <fizzie> "169.22.9.18.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer WWW.MIT.EDU" APPARENTLY
18:50:59 <ais523> zzo38: well, they have inputs and outputs and inouts, that's also important
18:51:10 <ais523> and support for types other than bits at least in simulatoin
18:51:24 <ais523> in at least VHDL simulations, and probably Verilog too, you can even do string handling if you feel like it
18:52:35 <boily> fizzie: MIT has the whole 18.0.0.0/8 at their disposition.
18:52:55 <fizzie> boily: Well I have the whole 10/8 here SO THERE.
18:52:59 <fizzie> Okay, so it's not quite the same thing.
18:53:25 <Taneb> I congratulate you on your one and a quarter, fizzie
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18:54:37 <fizzie> Anyway, "Defense Information Systems Agency" has the whole 22.0.0.0/8, 26.0.0.0/8, 29.0.0.0/8 and 30.0.0.0/8. I'm sure they make good use of them.
18:55:12 <zzo38> ais523: Can module I/O be formats other than fixed number of bits, though? At least in some cases, a bit-count calling convention for module I/O might be useful, even though in some cases it might not be appropriate, possibly.
18:55:22 <boily> speaking of quarters, I have one from connecticut in my wallet.
18:55:42 <ais523> zzo38: Verilog tries to hide its type system by making everything bits
18:56:03 <ais523> but it has to interoperate with VHDL, which has quite an obvious type system
18:56:34 <ais523> fizzie: are those the people the Internet was created for in the first place?
18:57:04 <fizzie> ais523: They certainly have a big chunk of it, still.
18:57:49 <fizzie> I don't know how it differs from Army Information Systems Center (who have 6.0.0.0/8), but I suppose it's very different.
18:58:01 <fizzie> DISA has a Wikipedia page, the latter doesn't.
18:58:09 <ais523> fizzie: well that seems to refer to the army in particular
18:58:10 <dbelange> whoah guys hacking is OT on this channel
18:58:17 <ais523> who's a subset of the military
18:59:33 <zzo38> ais523: So would you know if such a thing as this would work with Verilog? http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/User:Zzo38/Mapper_768#Submapper_1
18:59:40 <fizzie> Also, I have here a dime and a cent, they've been rolling around my table since a visit to Portland, OR, in September, 2012. I have no idea what to do with them.
19:00:06 <ais523> zzo38: I'm a bit busy to look at that
19:00:27 <fizzie> It's not like currency exchange places would take them, and the value is so close to zero, it's hard to care terribly much, but on the other hand I don't want to just throw them away either.
19:00:34 <zzo38> The first sixty I/O ports of the main module of the Verilog code must correspond to the pins 01 to 60 of the 60-pin Famicom cartridge, in that order. This is followed by the pins for the PRG ROM, CHR ROM, non-battery PRG RAM, non-battery CHR RAM, battery PRG RAM, and battery CHR RAM.
19:00:47 <ais523> fizzie: do you have any children you could give them to?
19:00:51 <ais523> children often like foreign currency
19:00:55 <zzo38> The commands with $ at front might not be implemented, but should be safely ignored if not implemented. However, if there is a trainer ROM, there will be an additional command $trainer to access 8-bit numbers given the 9-bit address, and $battery_init which tell you if you need to initialize the battery RAM.
19:01:00 <zzo38> Analog commands may be used with the audio signals.
19:01:09 <zzo38> That is the relevant parts.
19:01:46 <boily> fizzie: I once found a French franc in my wallet. I have no idea how it got there.
19:02:02 <boily> ais523: I *could* count as a child, and I'm foreign.
19:02:21 <zzo38> I have some foreign money in my desk drawer too. I just keep it there for now.
19:02:37 <ais523> zzo38: you're not going to be able to synthesize analog circuitry with verilog, its execution model isn't suited to it
19:03:33 <zzo38> ais523: Would it be possible to omit those parts in a digital synthesis though, and then build the analog stuff separately?
19:04:00 <ais523> zzo38: it's possible to mark parts of VHDL to be ignored by synthesizers; I don't know if Verilog has that feature, but it wouldn't surprise me
19:04:12 <ais523> the execution model of the language is unsuited to expressing analog circuits, though
19:04:19 <Vorpal> ais523, is there any HDL for synthesizing analogue circuits?
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19:04:24 <ais523> you could do it but only because Verilog is Turing-complete, it doesn't have any support for it
19:04:31 <ais523> Vorpal: not that I know of
19:04:42 <ais523> there are proprietary simulators that use netlists as input
19:04:48 <ais523> don't know if there's any standard for those yet
19:04:57 <ais523> I've never used one but I've read about them
19:05:09 <ais523> however, netlists are what typical synthesizers /output/, it's a very very low level format
19:05:12 <zzo38> I read that there is some extensions to Verilog for analog wires
19:05:33 <ais523> zzo38: the problem is that Verilog/VHDL's execution model is based around storing things in registers at clock edges
19:05:40 <Vorpal> sure simulators for analogue circuits exist. I even seen one at university, forgot the name of it.
19:05:41 <ais523> it's hard to create a reliable analog register
19:06:11 <ais523> Vorpal: I know, that's why I answered your question the way I answere dit
19:06:16 <Vorpal> How did the old analog computers work?
19:06:31 <ais523> Vorpal: they were basically a set of components that you joined together manually
19:06:36 <ais523> for electronic computers, with wires
19:06:41 <zzo38> Also, the $trainer and $battery_init commands are not supposed to be synthesizable either; they are meant only for emulation (and possibly could be ignored or switch off by conditional compiling if you are compiling to hardware)
19:06:44 <ais523> for the mechanical ones, by placing cogs at appropriate places
19:06:48 <ais523> to join shafts together
19:06:59 <Vorpal> ais523, but how did they store information I mean
19:07:03 <fizzie> boily: One used to occasionally-rarely get Italian 500 lire coins in place of the Finnish 10 mark coins, because they look -- http://digilander.libero.it/maggioref/500%20lire%20normali.JPG and http://i.ucoin.net/coin/178/1781/178195_2/finland_10_finnish_markkaa_1993.jpg -- slightly similar at a glance. (And the exchange rates as of the introduction of the euro were something like 500 ITL = ...
19:07:08 <Vorpal> what did they use instead of registers
19:07:09 <ais523> Vorpal: they didn't, that's what "analog" means
19:07:09 <fizzie> ... 1.54 FIM, so it was a good deal to the person who initially put the coin into circulation.)
19:07:21 <ais523> all data existed instantaneously
19:07:44 <Bike> Vorpal: are you familiar with data flow programs or synthesizers
19:07:46 <Vorpal> ais523, doesn't that analog just mean they are using a continuous signal, instead of two or more levels?
19:07:48 <Bike> analog computers are like that
19:07:49 <ais523> an analog computer calculates everything as a function of other things
19:08:01 <Bike> you could have an analog computer with registers
19:08:05 <ais523> common components would include add, multiply by constant, integrate, differentiate
19:08:12 <Bike> i don't think any built one really did, though
19:08:17 <Bike> since most of them were differential analyzers
19:08:23 <Vorpal> ais523, surely you could set up some sort of feedback loop though
19:08:31 <ais523> Vorpal: yes, they're not very useful without feedback loops
19:08:33 <Bike> yeah, a feedback loop could be used to store information
19:08:42 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> ais523, surely you could set up some sort of feedback loop though
19:08:42 <Vorpal> <ais523> Vorpal: yes, they're not very useful without feedback loops
19:08:44 <ais523> but they're time-continuous feedback loops
19:08:46 <Bike> that's how digital memory worked too :)
19:08:47 <boily> fizzie: USD and CAD coins are the same colours, same weight, same sizes, and are worth about the same. they get easily mixed at border areas.
19:08:48 <zzo38> ais523: Well, there is the esolang Proce, for analog stuff too, I have been told, and it include the operations you specified
19:08:54 <ais523> you get storage, but it's not particularly useful
19:09:01 <Vorpal> ais523, hey, delay lines
19:09:04 <ais523> or not particularly like registers
19:09:13 <boily> fizzie: still no explanation about that spontaneous franc, which is worth...
19:09:14 <ais523> Vorpal: delay lines don't work for analog storage
19:09:27 <ais523> digital delay lines include a "reshaping" circuit that's used to sharpen the corners on the 1s and 0s
19:09:28 <Vorpal> really? Don't they just store waves in mercury?
19:09:39 <Bike> Vorpal: basically a feedback loop is only like a register in that it can be held constant, to get information out you have it "send" it
19:09:41 <ais523> Vorpal: yeah, the problem is the data degrades a huge amount in transit
19:10:01 <ais523> anyway, you can also use an integrator to store data
19:10:06 <Bike> basically the analogy to registers is kind of useless
19:10:10 <ais523> leave input at 0, it retains its current value
19:10:16 <ais523> change input to 1 for a second, you're adding 1
19:10:19 <Bike> maybe you should just read some papers by Shannon or von Neumann and stop listening to me
19:10:23 <ais523> likewise you can subtract 1 by changing the input to -1 for a second
19:10:36 <ais523> it's just that these analog components don't behave a whole lot like digital components in general
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19:10:40 <Bike> Shannon developed a model of analog computers, the GPAC, and there's been some not-ancient work on that
19:11:00 <Bike> somebody or another proved it "equivalent" in a weird way to turing machines
19:11:19 <boily> fizzie: ~20 ¢, so a gain of approximatively 5 cents.
19:11:22 <zzo38> The reason I want mix analog/digital is not only for Famicom mappers, but also, I have the idea I want to be able to use a Verilog code with Csound, somehow, in order to make a chip tune music with Csound.
19:11:42 <zzo38> Does someone other than ais523 have the suggestion of such thing (since ais523 has quit)?
19:12:04 <Vorpal> zzo38, write your own simulation in C? It is probably far easier
19:12:08 <Bike> von neumann wrote a few papers about analog, particularly i've read a paper of his that developed a model of making reliable neural networks (in a not-biological sense, but whatever) out of unreliable analog components
19:12:51 <Bike> hm or maybe they were just dataflow, but digital... it's been a while
19:13:01 <Vorpal> Bike, anyway we make reliable digital electronics out of analog components all the time. Transistors are not perfectly digital.
19:13:06 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes, it could be written in C to make a Csound plugin, or in the Csound orchestra programming language, but I want to be able to use it with Verilog too
19:13:24 <Bike> von neumann was writing in like the 50s you realize
19:13:40 <Bike> transistors were barely extant
19:13:58 <Bike> anyway GPACs are more like what ais was talking about
19:14:04 <Vorpal> I'm not familiar with how vacuum tubes behave electrically
19:14:09 <fizzie> boily: Back when they introduced a new set of coins (in 1992) for the Finnish mark, many coin-operated vending machines (incl. the soda vending machine at my school... um, hypothetically) accepted the old 0.50 FIM coin as the 5 FIM coin, for a nice factor of 10. (They didn't look particularly similar, but the diameter and weight matched very well.)
19:14:20 <Bike> Vorpal: http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.4667
19:15:05 <Bike> i think synthesizers are a good intuitive model of this really
19:15:17 <Bike> you have something generating a wave, you pass it through a filter
19:15:32 <Bike> added bonus, you get to help zzo38 with whatever on earth he's doing
19:15:52 <Vorpal> is that really a bonus? XD
19:16:19 <fizzie> boily: Or come to think of it (and looking at those dates), maybe it was more like that some new vending machines introduced 5-10 years *after* the coinage change were the ones that confused them. But it was still a nice way to use a pile of leftover 0.50 FIM coins. Same machines also accepted old 0.20 FIM as 1 FIM, but that's just a factor of 5.
19:16:29 <olsner> Vorpal: Obviously it is.
19:16:41 <Taneb> Can anyone tell me the name of a play about the roman emperor Commodus (before he was emperor) that was written in rhyme and I think iambic pentameter
19:16:42 <Bike> zzo38 is the new craze that's sweeping the nation.
19:17:15 <Bike> also i don't understand half of what he's saying so i assume it must be interesting.
19:17:32 <boily> it is the '10s, and there is time to zzo38.
19:17:39 <zzo38> Bike: Then you must learn.
19:17:55 <Taneb> Bike, get a FAMICOM emulator and dev kit.
19:17:58 <Taneb> That is the first step
19:18:11 <zzo38> (assuming it must be interesting, is not a valid logic, but it is a valid opinion, I guess)
19:18:12 <fizzie> Is this year stamped in the cent the production year? Then I guess this is a reasonably old coin, since it says 1964 on it.
19:18:17 <Bike> is FAMICOM even an acronym, or are they just yelling
19:18:28 <Bike> i thought it was Family Computer
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19:18:32 <zzo38> Bike: It is short for Family Computer
19:18:48 <Bike> FAMILY COMPUTER!!!
19:18:58 <Bike> also yes it's invalid zzo38, i'm no good with syllogisms
19:18:58 <Taneb> NINTENDO ENTERTAINMENT SYSTEM!
19:19:05 <Vorpal> how does a FAMICOM and a NES differ?
19:19:23 <Bike> they didn't have region coding in those days
19:19:25 <elliott> fizzie: I've never thought how machines recognise coins before now
19:19:37 <Taneb> Vorpal, different external design
19:19:40 <Bike> (not to say that NES and Famicoms aren't different, they are)
19:19:47 <Vorpal> Taneb, so internals didn't differ?
19:19:49 <Bike> elliott: didn't you ever read How Stuff Works as a kid
19:19:54 <olsner> Bike: ah, so by calling the systems different things people thought you couldn't import the games?
19:19:55 <Taneb> Not as far as I am aware
19:20:01 <Vorpal> Taneb, why different design though? Seems pointlessly expensive
19:20:03 <fizzie> Magic must be involved.
19:20:11 <Taneb> Vorpal, appeal to different markets
19:20:21 <Taneb> The US video game market had just crashed pretty badly
19:20:25 <Bike> olsner: back when the NES came out i don't think there was much appeal to importing games.
19:20:29 <olsner> "oh, only for Famicom? I guess I'll have to wait for the NES release..."
19:20:31 <fizzie> "In the United States, most vending machines have advanced currency detection techniques that can discern coins by reading the coins' "magnetic signature;" thus, many American vending machines will not take coins from other countries, even if their sizes are similar."
19:20:52 <fizzie> Advanced currency detection techniques sounds fancy.
19:21:09 <Bike> fizzie: originally adapted from cold war soviet sub detection
19:21:17 <kmc> didn't they use at least different video standards?
19:21:28 <Bike> oh, i meant with games specifically
19:21:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, iirc it boils down to applying a magnetic field and measuring the deceleration
19:21:36 <Bike> i think NTSC and PAL an stuff were around yes
19:22:00 <kmc> oh but japan uses NTSC
19:22:04 <elliott> Bike: that's way too many "t"s
19:22:11 <Vorpal> kmc, didn't Japan use NTSC?
19:22:18 <Vorpal> I thought only Europe used PAL
19:22:21 <zzo38> The NES/Famicom is mostly the same, although the cartridge is different. Also, the RF Famicom is different to AV Famicom.
19:22:24 <olsner> I thought japan used secam
19:22:31 <kmc> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/PAL-NTSC-SECAM.svg
19:22:40 <Vorpal> olsner, wasn't that France?
19:22:41 <Bike> wow i've never even heard of secam
19:22:46 <kmc> Vorpal: most of the world uses PAL
19:23:02 <kmc> well maybe most?
19:23:05 <kmc> anyway there's the map
19:23:06 <Vorpal> kmc, true, but iirc SECAM in France and NTSC in US and JP?
19:23:06 <Bike> of course i don't actually know what NTSC and PAL are in the first place other than something ... something
19:23:09 <Vorpal> though I could be wrong
19:23:13 <kmc> SECAM is the french "different because we're french" standard
19:23:16 <fizzie> Hey, my cent -- http://cointrackers.com/coins/13649/1964-lincoln-penny/ -- is technically worth 20 cents!
19:23:21 <Bike> looks like russia uses it
19:23:21 <kmc> i didn't know russia uses it though!
19:23:29 <Bike> also the coveted mongolian market
19:23:37 <olsner> we once had a fancy japanese-brand VCR that did secam and other acronyms, I just assumed one of them would be "japanese tv"
19:23:38 <kmc> "Another explanation for the Eastern European adoption of SECAM, led by the Soviet Union, is that the Russians had extremely long distribution lines between broadcasting stations and transmitters... Long co-axial cables or microwave links can cause amplitude and phase variations, which do not affect SECAM signals."
19:23:55 <Bike> kmc: i'm thinking this map looks like the one from 1984.
19:24:02 <kmc> "According to this explanation, East German political authorities were well aware of West German television's popularity and adopted SECAM rather than the PAL encoding used in West Germany."
19:24:11 <kmc> Bike: haha
19:24:16 <zzo38> In most cases the same game can work in NES, Famicom, and some other clones.
19:24:19 <Bike> oh man french guiana
19:24:27 <Bike> all by its lonesome there, can't pick up any brazilian TV
19:24:33 <zzo38> Microphone is only in RF Famicom, though; AV Famicom and NES lacks this features.
19:24:44 <kmc> Western Sahara is the one island of NTSC in Africa
19:24:59 <Bike> kmc: that looks like no info
19:25:07 <Bike> which makes sense considering western sahara's population
19:25:08 <kmc> but it's greyed out because a) not a country, b) how many televisions are there anyway
19:25:23 <zzo38> Vorpal: Officially they just call it "Famicom" but I call it RF Famicom to distinguish from AV Famicom, since it is connected to the TV set by RF cables.
19:25:28 <Bike> bangladesh what are you doing
19:25:38 <Bike> that is bangladesh isn't it
19:25:44 <Vorpal> zzo38, it had a mic? What was that used for in practice?
19:26:10 <kmc> no that's myanmar
19:26:16 <Bike> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takeshi_no_Ch%C5%8Dsenj%C5%8D used it
19:26:22 <zzo38> Vorpal: Hardly anything, although there are some games (even ones written this year!) that use it, usually optionally.
19:26:27 <Bike> ugh i was confusing burma and thailand
19:26:41 <kmc> i forget are we calling it myanmar or burma now
19:26:50 <Bike> i don't remember either
19:26:51 <kmc> this is of course an intensely political question
19:26:53 <zzo38> (Famicom Hangman optionally uses the microphone to mix up the random number generator some more)
19:27:03 <Bike> That Fucked Up Country i guess
19:27:06 <olsner> fun fact: myanmar and burma are spelled the same way in myanmarian
19:27:21 <Bike> still can't believe they had a socialist government based on killing communists
19:27:46 <kmc> that is confusing
19:27:48 <Bike> ("bike the soviet union did that too" "shut up")
19:28:26 <kmc> the great thing about kinds of socialism is that there are so many to choose from
19:28:28 <olsner> Vorpal: one name is from how it was pronounced ages ago, the other is how they actually say it nowadays, but their writing system hasn't changes from "ages ago"
19:28:50 <Bike> what about spoken?
19:28:54 <Vorpal> olsner, which one is the modern pronunciation?
19:29:11 <olsner> Vorpal: fun facts do not come in such detail
19:29:20 <olsner> (that would make them not fun)
19:29:42 <Vorpal> olsner, you mean they would move on to being hilarious?
19:30:52 <olsner> I suspect the actual contemporary pronounciation is not remotely similar to either name, and in fact they all speak indonesian or somesuch anyway
19:31:38 <Vorpal> isn't there a military junta there?
19:31:42 <Bike> burma has a lot of languages
19:31:46 <Bike> yes, though they've been liberalizing
19:32:29 <Bike> burmese is the official language, though i don't know if that means it's actually popular (though i'd guess it is)
19:32:39 <Bike> "Burmese is spoken by 32 million as a first language and as a second language by 10 million" k then.
19:33:04 <Taneb> Burmese is one of the 5 languages with more than 5 million speakers that have a "th" sound like in English "with"
19:33:25 <nooodl> zzo38: what is my name today?
19:33:35 <olsner> Vorpal: fun fact #2: fun facts are usually at least partially wrong
19:33:49 <Vorpal> olsner, is that a fact?
19:34:04 <kmc> olsner: that's what makes them fun
19:34:19 <boily> Taneb: th and dh sounds are evil.
19:34:26 <kmc> "Note that Hong Kong and Macao, the two Chinese dependencies on the southern coast of China, are omitted on the map. Both city-states use the NTSC/NTSC J system."
19:34:29 <kmc> one country two systems
19:34:47 <Bike> PAL with chinese characteristics
19:34:58 <Taneb> I know someone who's lived in England all his life and has English as his first language and can't tell the difference between f and th
19:34:59 <shachaf> | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
19:35:12 <zzo38> The only controls used by the current version of Famicom Hangman are the letter keys and the space-bar.
19:35:14 <Taneb> Other than that he's quite a good serious actor
19:35:27 <kmc> "Only Japan's variant "NTSC-J" is slightly different: in Japan, black level and blanking level of the signal are identical (at 0 IRE), as they are in PAL, while in American NTSC, black level is slightly higher (7.5 IRE) than blanking level. Since the difference is quite small, a slight turn of the brightness knob is all that is required to correctly show the "other" variant of NTSC on any set as it is supposed to be; most watchers mig
19:35:46 <Vorpal> Taneb, that doesn't make any sense
19:35:53 <Vorpal> they are rather different sounds
19:35:57 <Bike> by the way as long as we're talking about burma
19:35:57 <kmc> so technically NTSC and PAL are both color standards over a B&W standard which can vary
19:35:59 <Taneb> He associates them
19:36:05 <kmc> however NTSC is always used with "System M"
19:36:06 <Bike> i'd like to mention that the place is so fucked that wikipedia has this article
19:36:09 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceasefires_in_Burma
19:36:09 <Taneb> I think it's a psychological thing
19:36:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, i have a friend like that except he's scots-algerian
19:36:14 <Vorpal> Taneb, and I say that, not having the th sound in my native language
19:36:19 <nooodl> Taneb, albanian, arabic, danish, english, german, hebrew, portuguese, spanish, swahili, turkmen
19:36:31 <olsner> Bike: also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Burma since we were on that topic earlier
19:36:37 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL#PAL_broadcast_systems
19:36:53 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: I have a friend who's scots-algerian too. have we the same friend?
19:36:54 <olsner> (with an article as big as some countries)
19:37:06 <Vorpal> Taneb, the sound I do have an issue with is the "ch" sound. Like in chair and chest. Sometimes it seems to come in slightly different variants. Really hard to hear the difference there for me
19:37:15 <Phantom_Hoover> boily, i suspect there may be an age difference between them
19:37:28 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: maybe.
19:37:42 <Taneb> Vorpal, I think it's quite close to "dsh" or "tsh"?
19:37:49 <kmc> good thing we took digital TV as an opportunity to finally standardize world wide
19:37:50 <Taneb> But I also think th and f are quite close
19:38:19 <Vorpal> Taneb, Yeah, can't really hear the difference between those variants unless the person saying it over-exaggerates.
19:38:21 <shachaf> nooodl: Hebrew doesn't have the English "th" sound.
19:38:25 <Bike> hm... that got me thinking about standards... and I suppose IP is a standard that's been pretty universally adopted?
19:38:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, Maybe. We don't really make that difference in Sweden, whatever it is
19:38:45 <nooodl> HebrewIraqiאדוני [ʔaðoˈnaj] (help·info)'my lord'Commonly pronounced [d]. See Modern Hebrew phonology
19:39:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I think it is the d/t thing Taneb is talking about
19:39:02 <nooodl> so it's probably only [] if you're some kind of -pronouncing asshole
19:39:21 <kmc> Bike: well it's adopted world wide, but lots of other standards coexist
19:39:26 <Taneb> nooodl, I'm referring to [θ]
19:39:28 <kmc> either independently or by tunneling one over the other
19:39:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also some voiced phonemes are kind of hard to pronounce for me, again we lack them in Swedish
19:40:09 <olsner> Taneb: isn't the -th in with a different sound?
19:40:26 <nooodl> that's pronounced /wɪð/...
19:40:26 <Vorpal> err, not voiced, wrong word
19:40:26 <olsner> voiced rather than voiceless, I think
19:40:32 <Vorpal> trying to find the right word
19:40:51 <kmc> we need OSI Model 2.0 which defines layers 8-14 which all run on top of HTTP
19:41:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the phonemes that when you pronounce them feels like your tongue is "buzzing", what are they called...
19:41:23 <boily> kmc: layers 5 and 6 are not even used. let's fill them before adding new layers.
19:41:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, when you over-pronounce it
19:41:45 <Bike> kmc: xen over internet protocol
19:41:52 <olsner> boily: hmm, sounds like some kind of periodic table of models
19:41:57 <Taneb> Just looked it up, and with could be either th or th
19:42:05 <Taneb> I mean the one in "thin"
19:42:12 <Taneb> Not the one in "this"
19:42:13 <Bike> z vs s is the best example of voicedness imo
19:42:19 <Bike> just hold your adam's apple
19:42:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you have a lot more of then than Swedish iirc
19:42:44 <fizzie> Voicing doesn't have anything to do with the tongue, though.
19:43:18 <Vorpal> you mean the letters? No
19:43:24 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: no, that's norwegian
19:44:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I think they share a common history though, after all in names "av" is sometimes written as "af" (that is like von in this case)
19:44:30 <boily> [ʁ] is the bestest phoneme of them all.
19:44:42 <Vorpal> boily, which one is that?
19:45:02 <boily> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_uvular_fricative
19:45:09 <olsner> swedish v is like english v, I think ... but swedes tend to mix up w and v sounds in english, because the w sound is not common
19:45:43 <kmc> Bike: Syscalls As A Service
19:46:13 <Vorpal> boily, well okay, r as in Skånska I think?
19:46:37 <olsner> ah, "Southern dialects", yes
19:46:41 <Vorpal> yeah, sounds about right
19:47:02 <Vorpal> olsner, so a rolling r basically
19:47:36 <boily> it's not the rolling r, sadly.
19:47:39 <Vorpal> olsner, I like the sj-sound too
19:47:40 <fizzie> We don't have that at all. :/ (In fact, Finnish is reasonably modest when it comes to phonology.)
19:47:49 <olsner> the following example is funny, it says yangir, but it's the g that has the r sound
19:48:56 <Vorpal> boily, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palatal-velar_fricative
19:49:11 <boily> Vorpal: that one is nasty.
19:49:18 <fizzie> What's "funny" (FSVO) about Finnish phonology is that for the most part, our graphemes map to the identical-looking IPA symbols. (Not quite all of them, but still.)
19:49:23 <Vorpal> boily, how so? I can pronounce it easily!
19:49:55 <boily> I think I can, but I don't know any Swedish people to check if I'm doing it correctly.
19:50:17 <olsner> "Though the acoustic properties of its [ɧ] allophones are fairly similar, the realizations can vary considerably according to geography, social status, age, gender as well as social context [...]"
19:50:21 <Vorpal> boily, I have a German relative who lived in Sweden since the 50s, and still has problems pronouncing it
19:50:38 <Vorpal> well, since the late 50s
19:50:52 <olsner> ... makes it sound a bit like swedes communicate only through ɧs
19:51:17 <Vorpal> olsner, well... Sju sjösjuka sjömän...
19:51:54 <olsner> you could just learn finland swedish instead and use ʃ
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19:52:13 <boily> I think the hardest Québec French sound isn't even a consonant. we extensively use /ɑ/.
19:52:56 <Gregor> TIL: Quebecois speak exclusively in vowels.
19:53:43 <fizzie> /ɑ/ is also the Finnish "a".
19:54:06 <Vorpal> English lacks the Swedish u too
19:54:07 <boily> /ɑ/ has disappeared from France French, mainly.
19:54:37 <fizzie> "But... it's just an a!"
19:54:50 <olsner> Vorpal: re "rolling r", I think you confused the names of the r's
19:55:11 <Vorpal> olsner, Which one is the skorrande r?
19:55:37 <Vorpal> which is what I was thinking of
19:55:45 <olsner> uvular or guttural, afaict
19:55:46 <Vorpal> English lacks ʉː right?
19:56:17 <boily> yes, it has nothing to that effect.
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19:58:54 <fizzie> Possibly they should give each language some unique, non-shared phoneme, so that everyone'd have something to be proud of.
19:59:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, well Swedish has a couple of unique ones, with the ɧ
19:59:35 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: You can just add more subdivisions.
19:59:41 <Phantom_Hoover> there's this one fairly tame phoneme which isn't used by any languages
20:00:55 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:03:04 <Vorpal> Also fun in Swedish, anden and anden is pronounced differently depending on if it means "the duck" or "the spirit". Wikipedia lists the former as "[ˈa᷇ndɛ̀n] or [ˈan˥˧dɛn˩]" and the latter as "[ˈa᷆ndɛ̂n] or [ˈan˧˩dɛn˥˩]"
20:03:34 <shachaf> Half-voiced quidental-applasal darentive
20:03:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, sure but is it the same type of difference
20:04:23 <fizzie> shachaf: Voiceless quidditch broomxirant.
20:05:01 <zzo38> I think the Famicom is possible to have keyboard and mouse connected at the same time, but I don't think any existing software uses it!
20:05:04 <ion> @karma ghoti
20:05:58 <Phantom_Hoover> there are a bunch of noun/verb stress differences there
20:06:08 <fizzie> You can tell our phonological poverty from the fact that most of the IPA symbols of Finnish phonemes are just ASCII. (Okay, so the mid-vowels technically have extra diacritics and there's a few exceptions, but still.)
20:06:37 <Taneb> You make up for your phonology with your conjugation, fizzie
20:06:47 <olsner> having any of your phonemes' IPA symbols in ascii is the sign of failure
20:07:38 <ais523> you know what more programming languages need? a "revert all state apart from the instruction pointer and call stack" command
20:07:44 <ais523> imperative languages, that is
20:07:57 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:08:04 <fizzie> Finnish has a lot of information-bearing phoneme lengths (tuli 'fire' vs. tuuli 'wind' vs. tulli 'customs/toll'), that I think is often mentioned as a curiosity.
20:08:22 <ais523> this would seem to be very useful for cleanup after an error
20:08:45 <ais523> you could do all the destructive updates you like but always be able to roll back
20:08:50 <Vorpal> ais523, hm, is there any imperative language that has that?
20:08:55 <ais523> hmm… that's more or less the exact opposite of a continuation
20:08:57 <ais523> Vorpal: not that I know of
20:09:03 <elliott> ais523: you need some scope for that
20:09:07 <shachaf> fizzie: English has these too. Compare: "elliott" and "eliot".
20:09:10 <Vorpal> ais523, it is kind of trucky if there is IO involved as well
20:09:22 <Vorpal> I suggest just using a reversible language?
20:09:26 <ais523> Vorpal: that doesn't have to be reversed
20:09:40 <ais523> this would be for algorithms anyway
20:09:46 <ais523> perhaps to respond to IO failures
20:09:48 <Vorpal> ais523, ah, so transactional memory then
20:09:59 <Vorpal> just roll back the current transaction
20:10:02 <ais523> yeah, transactional memory
20:11:23 <ais523> I've wanted it to be available repeatedly over the last week
20:12:00 <Vorpal> ais523, what about forking each time and then killing processes up till the point you want to revert to
20:12:06 <ais523> other people's programs, I think
20:12:09 <Vorpal> Since linux uses copy on write this should work
20:12:10 <ais523> Vorpal: that's how it's implemented in INTERCAL
20:12:16 <Vorpal> ais523, really? Niiice
20:12:35 <fizzie> Where "each time" presumably means "each time you do anything at all"?
20:12:37 <Vorpal> I wouldn't want to run intercal on cygwin then
20:12:44 <ais523> fizzie: each time you enter a stack
20:12:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, depend on the granularity you wan't rollback on
20:12:48 <ais523> Vorpal: interpreter threads, not OS threads
20:12:56 <ais523> you could do it with OS threads too but I don't want to try
20:12:58 <Vorpal> ais523, I mean OS ones
20:13:35 <ais523> seems a bit wasteful of pid namespace
20:13:48 <Vorpal> is it 32-bit on linux?
20:13:59 <ais523> it used to be 16-bit, and many programs still assume that so it's the default
20:14:04 <ais523> but the kernel supports 32-bit too
20:14:43 <fizzie> Seems a bit wasteful of things in general. (Sure, sure, copy-on-write, but there's still quite a lot of things in a process.)
20:15:08 <AnotherTest> Has anyone in here ever heard of someone who goes by the pseudonym "simpson"?
20:15:28 <ais523> fizzie: Linux lets you choose how much to copy when you create a process
20:15:33 <fizzie> ais523: It's not just the programs; seeing six-digits-or-more numbers in ps is confusing for a person, too.
20:15:39 <Taneb> I know someone called Simpson who gets called "simpy"
20:15:42 <pikhq> pid_t on my system is a signed 32-bit value.
20:15:47 <pikhq> ... why is it signed
20:15:59 <ais523> pikhq: for signalling process groups
20:16:00 <fizzie> pikhq: But what's your /proc/sys/kernel/pid_max?
20:16:00 <shachaf> pikhq: Because kill can take a negative argument?
20:16:00 <AnotherTest> Taneb: is this by any chance the simpson who is active at #python too?
20:16:06 <Taneb> AnotherTest, doubtful
20:16:19 <AnotherTest> (09:12:34 PM) simpson: AnotherTest: No, it's funny because I hack esoteric languages all the time and write compilers for fun. :3
20:16:20 <fizzie> (Mine is 2^15 exactly.)
20:16:30 <pikhq> fizzie: Blah, it is 2^15.
20:17:03 -!- lahwran has quit (Changing host).
20:17:03 -!- lahwran has joined.
20:17:22 <HackEgo> not lately; try `seen simpson ever
20:17:31 <Taneb> `seen simpson ever
20:17:58 <lmt> `seen lament
20:18:03 <HackEgo> not lately; try `seen lament ever
20:18:08 <lmt> `seen lament ever
20:18:14 <HackEgo> 2012-07-18 18:17:18: <lament> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
20:18:33 <fizzie> ais523: PID_MAX_LIMIT in my random grep-kernel (3.something, anyway; haven't been building kernels lately) is a value that's not 2^31-1; in fact, it's a rather complicated value.
20:18:38 <olsner> lament laments, who'd've thought
20:18:42 <elliott> AnotherTest: he is in #haskell.
20:18:54 <fizzie> It's (CONFIG_BASE_SMALL ? PAGE_SIZE * 8 : (sizeof(long) > 4 ? 4 * 1024 * 1024 : PID_MAX_DEFAULT)), where PID_MAX_DEFAULT is (CONFIG_BASE_SMALL ? 0x1000 : 0x8000).
20:19:02 <HackEgo> 2013-03-18 20:18:58: <ais523> `seen ais523
20:19:14 <fizzie> Also, there's a comment saying "A maximum of 4 million PIDs should be enough for a while." on top.
20:19:15 <HackEgo> 2013-02-17 15:53:28: <ais523_> it's nice to have an OS such that your computer can overheat, crash, and restart before you ping out from IRC
20:19:23 <HackEgo> not lately; try `seen ais523__ ever
20:19:35 <HackEgo> 2011-03-31 15:54:19: <ais523__> indeed, it is
20:19:36 <HackEgo> not lately; try `seen ais521 ever
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20:19:51 <fizzie> So you can only raise /proc/sys/kernel/pid_max to 4194304.
20:20:03 <HackEgo> 2012-12-17 20:15:57: <ais521> Oops
20:20:26 <ais523> so was that me or someone else
20:20:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is such a random number
20:20:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: It "should be enough for a while", though.
20:21:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, true, mine is at 32768. Which is the default 16-bit thingy again I presume
20:21:26 <Vorpal> haven't had an issue so far
20:21:55 -!- AnotherTest has left.
20:22:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's a pidmap[] array, the size of which is related to pid_max, which might explain why it's not completely unlimited.
20:23:01 <boily> why is there a /proc/sys/kernel/hostname, and what is it doing in that directory?
20:23:09 <ais523> !c printf("%x", 4194304);
20:23:18 <ais523> fizzie: not that random
20:23:23 <ais523> boily: the kernel maintains its own idea of the hostname
20:23:28 <ais523> which is used at least by the uname system call
20:23:29 <fizzie> There's also some other default that relates pid_max to the number of processors, with PIDS_PER_CPU_DEFAULT being 1024 -- to match "original pid max of 32k for 32 cpus" -- and PIDS_PER_CPU_MIN of 8, presumably for sanity reasons.
20:23:47 <ais523> presumably that allows you to get at it, and maybe change it, without having to use a separate program like uname(1)
20:23:59 <boily> ais523: good argument.
20:24:17 <ais523> also I don't think uname can set the hostname, so you'd need /another/ separate program to set it
20:25:01 <ais523> which probably exists in section 8 somewhere but I don't know what it's called offhand
20:25:22 <oerjan> 16:36:34: <ais523> coppro: hungarian ő is basically like german ö but a bit longer
20:25:25 <oerjan> 16:36:47: <ais523> whereas hungarian ö is like german ö but a bit shorter
20:25:33 <oerjan> um german has length distinction in vowels too
20:25:33 <fizzie> pid_max is adjusted to be min(PID_MAX_LIMIT, max(pid_max, PIDS_PER_CPU_DEFAULT * num_possible_cpus())) right before the pid-bitmap is allocated.
20:26:57 <kmc> Linux actually supports running different processes with different ideas of what the hostname is
20:27:04 <kmc> clone(CLONE_NEWUTS)
20:27:23 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
20:27:27 <fizzie> There's all kinds of separatable namespaces these days, what with all the container-brouhaha.
20:27:29 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:27:44 <ais523> kmc: I used that in Web of Lies, then forgot about it
20:27:56 <ais523> and now I remembered again
20:28:11 <fizzie> And of course you can have multiple PID namespaces.
20:28:13 <Vorpal> ais523, I think hostname sets it?
20:28:53 <Vorpal> ais523, though my hostname is dragon according to the file, and hostname, but hostname -f lists dragon.lan
20:29:10 <kmc> the new hotness is that unprivileged users can now use these various namespaces
20:29:18 <Vorpal> ais523, and hostname -A hangs??
20:29:23 <kmc> which is currently a great source of privilege escalation holes
20:29:23 <ais523> how long before weboflies doesn't have to be root?
20:29:27 <kmc> i don't know
20:29:27 <Vorpal> oh no, it is just slow
20:29:33 <fizzie> "The FQDN is the name getaddrinfo(3) returns for the host name returned by gethostname(2)"; that's where hostname -f comes from.
20:29:40 <kmc> have only been following this via spender's rants on twitter
20:30:04 <ais523> it feels a bit weird for a program to be able to plausibly claim to be init without even being root
20:30:24 <Sgeo> I love how even the actor is half-convinced, even though he knows the truth
20:30:39 <Vorpal> <oerjan> um german has length distinction in vowels too <-- like Swedish you mean?
20:30:51 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:30:59 <kmc> "I once convinced a woman that I was Kevin Costner, and it worked because *I* believed it!"
20:31:03 <olsner> ais523: how so? sandboxing ought to be safe and freely available for non-privileged users
20:31:25 <ais523> olsner: it can feel weird without being a bad idea
20:31:38 <Vorpal> <kmc> which is currently a great source of privilege escalation holes <-- heh really?
20:31:48 <oerjan> Vorpal: oh. in context, that should be like hungarian actually.
20:32:24 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> I love how even the actor is half-convinced, even though he knows the truth <-- is there a context to this?
20:32:35 <Taneb> kmc, that reminds me, I need to watch Waterworld
20:32:36 <Sgeo> Vorpal, Space Cadets
20:32:41 <elliott> is there a context to anything sgeo says
20:33:09 <Taneb> elliott, sometimes there's a context when he says "^list"
20:33:12 <Vorpal> <ais523> it feels a bit weird for a program to be able to plausibly claim to be init without even being root <-- pure user space qemu can easily do this. An LD_PRELOAD hack could claim it to another program as well
20:33:22 <ais523> Vorpal: qemu's a VM, it doesn't count :)
20:33:32 <ais523> LD_PRELOAD, I'll give you that (although it's not 100% reliable)
20:33:42 <ais523> actually weboflies could claim to be init without actually being init
20:33:48 <Vorpal> ais523, whatever valgrind does would work too
20:33:52 <ais523> but that doesn't really fit in with its philosophy
20:33:56 <Vorpal> which is not exactly LD_PRELOAD only iirc
20:33:59 <Vorpal> though that is involved
20:34:20 <pikhq_> Valgrind doesn't even touch LD_PRELOAD.
20:34:23 <olsner> can LD_PRELOAD be used to insert a new and improved vsyscall page/dso/whatchamacallit?
20:34:37 <Vorpal> olsner, hrrm... probably not
20:34:44 <Vorpal> that is kind of special isn't it?
20:35:01 <pikhq_> It compiles the binary to a specialized IR, runs transformations on the resulting IR, and then JITs.
20:35:02 <Vorpal> ais523, how did you handle the vdso btw? I forgot
20:35:25 <ais523> note that I never claimed that web of lies actually /works/
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20:35:51 <Vorpal> ais523, worked any further on it since it was revealed?
20:36:12 <kmc> with a modified ELF interpreter you could just link your own vDSO substitut
20:36:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, speaking of JITs. Jitfunge? What happened to it
20:36:30 <ais523> Vorpal: since it was /revealed/? yes; last several months? no
20:36:31 <Vorpal> kmc, it is inserted into static binaries too
20:36:38 <ais523> I was working on it as it was revealed
20:36:51 <kmc> Vorpal: but very few static binaries are going to parse the vDSO and use things from it, afaik
20:36:56 <kmc> maybe static glibc does, i dunno
20:37:01 <kmc> it's a different story on i386
20:37:09 <Vorpal> static glibc does weird stuff
20:37:18 <kmc> where the address of one of the vDSO entry points (for system calls) is passed directly in an ELF auxv
20:37:35 <kmc> on amd64 only the start of the vDSO ELF image is passed, for use by the dynamic loader
20:37:56 <kmc> there is an example program somewhere in the Linux source tree for parsing that ELF and using functions from a static binary
20:38:04 <kmc> it's not that hard, but i don't know if anyone does it
20:38:15 <Vorpal> kmc, well ld.so itself probably does
20:38:23 <Vorpal> ld.so is a static binary after all
20:38:26 <kmc> does ld.so need to make fast gettimeofday calls
20:38:53 <kmc> to make system calls in general? it wouldn't need to, it could just use that entry point that's passed
20:38:59 <Vorpal> I guess static glibc uses the gettimeofday call
20:39:21 <kmc> basically they decided it's OK to make it somewhat difficult for static binaries to use fast gettimeofday etc, but not OK to make it difficult for them to make syscalls on i386
20:39:51 <pikhq_> Breaking kernel ABI is generally considered a bad thing.
20:40:26 <pikhq_> You can still run Linux 1.0 binaries on a modern system.
20:40:44 <kmc> yeah Linux is fanatical about that
20:40:46 <kmc> to their detriment
20:41:09 <coppro> on average it's a good thing
20:41:11 <kmc> there's a ton of compatibility cruft in the kernel and it's a perpetual source of bugs and security holes
20:41:21 <coppro> though it would be nice to do a prune
20:41:28 <pikhq_> Userspace has a bit worse compatibility cruft.
20:41:35 <pikhq_> Seriously, 32-bit off_t should DIE in a FIRE.
20:41:36 <kmc> coppro: i don't know, there is the Windows alternative where the kernel ABI is kept clean and modern, and programs are supposed to dynamically link libc etc
20:41:50 <coppro> kmc: dynamically linking libc is not a kernel thing
20:42:29 <ais523> coppro: the Windows kernel team is also responsible for the libc
20:42:41 <ais523> because the libc is the only documented/approved way to communicate with the kernel
20:42:51 <ais523> and in general Windows considers it part of the kernel
20:42:52 <coppro> yeah, but it isn't on Windows
20:43:10 <coppro> (and it shouldn't be because fuck glibc ;) )
20:43:11 <Vorpal> <pikhq_> Seriously, 32-bit off_t should DIE in a FIRE. <-- That is gone on 64-bit systems afaik?
20:43:13 <kmc> i'm saying they could change that
20:43:21 <Vorpal> well apart from multi arch obviously
20:43:22 <olsner> kmc: I guess moving the ABI outside the real kernel is nice, but they still have an ABI in those dlls they can't change
20:43:22 <kmc> yeah, exactly, fuck glibc, Linux team can make their own libc
20:43:27 <kmc> olsner: yeah
20:43:32 <kmc> there's no free lunch if you want binary compat
20:43:35 <Bike> ooh what's wrong with glibc
20:43:39 <kmc> you could have multiple versions of that libc though
20:43:42 <coppro> Bike: the devs are morons
20:43:44 <kmc> http://blog.sc5.fi/2013/03/sc5-pays-salaries-in-bitcoin/
20:43:52 <kmc> drepper is not a moron but definitely an asshole
20:44:03 <Bike> drepper's the only one i know of and he seems smart if a jerk yes
20:44:10 <Bike> though he doesn't work on it any more, does he?
20:44:11 <kmc> he's rather bright, I enjoyed a lot of his whitepapers (published by Red Hat) regarding linkers, futex, etc
20:44:12 <elliott> drepper doesnt work on glibc any more does he
20:44:30 <pikhq_> Drepper totally left glibc.
20:44:37 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:44:38 <Bike> anyway i want specifics
20:44:45 <pikhq_> It's been having a major series of compliance bugfixes of late.
20:44:46 <Bike> "the devs are morons" could have so many exciting consequences
20:46:05 <pikhq_> He's quite bright, but not a good choice of maintainer.
20:46:13 <Vorpal> moving emulation and support of old APIs out of the kernel does have the advantage of reducing the amount of code running at elevated privileges though
20:46:26 <kmc> yeah, but Linux has never really been interested in that
20:46:28 <kmc> or in security in general
20:46:36 <kmc> the upstream kernel devs are actively hostile to security
20:46:47 <Vorpal> that makes little sense
20:46:59 <kmc> they intentionally obfuscate regarding which commits are security-relevant
20:47:23 <kmc> like if Linus fixes a trivially exploited root hole, the commit message is usually 4 paragraphs of irrelevant blather
20:47:26 <kmc> eg http://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/commit/?id=799c10559d60f159ab2232203f222f18fa3c4a5f
20:47:28 <Bike> so how's SELinux or w/e work?
20:47:47 <kmc> i'm talking about their attitude toward bugfixes, not grand frameworks
20:47:51 <kmc> i don't know as much about the latter
20:47:56 <olsner> is that based on the idea that the fixes will expose security holes that linux has had or something?
20:48:10 <Bike> that commit doesn't mention security at all other than the site of the reporter. lol.
20:48:18 <olsner> or just that they don't care about figuring out whether their bugfix fixed something exploitable?
20:48:20 <coppro> security shouldn't be mentioned until a fixed release is pushed
20:48:50 <coppro> given the amount of time it takes for changes to filter from mainline to distros, it would be irresponsible to say "this fixes a root exploit" in commit logs
20:49:10 <pikhq_> Security fixes in particular filter from mainline to distros in the course of hours.
20:49:20 <kmc> coppro: so instead let's make the kernel team of each distro reverse-engineer the intent of upstream?
20:49:29 <Vorpal> kmc, only the last paragraph mentions security at all
20:49:40 <kmc> i don't think there is a *private* channel for these things, either
20:49:41 <Vorpal> and even then not directly
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20:49:46 <kmc> they just dump fixes and you're supposed to figure out what's relevant
20:50:00 <kmc> some fixes do get tagged with CVE numbers, but not reliably
20:50:04 <elliott> ksplice wasn't invited to the secret privtae cahnnel
20:51:40 <kmc> yeah maybe :(
20:52:06 <boily> what's that mysterious secret privtae cahnnel?
20:53:26 <elliott> can't tell you it's secret
20:53:51 <fizzie> The guy running SC5 is technically an acquaintance (or at least once removed) from the university. And the bitcoin thing was mentioned by the news media.
20:53:59 <olsner> oracle could do lots of evil if they got told about security issues
20:55:14 <kmc> ah yes evil oracle
20:55:42 <ais523> fizzie: oh right, one of the most confusing/surprising things I've seen: two people from different schools in a chemistry competition started talking
20:55:47 <kmc> no matter what Oracle does, the Internet hates them for it
20:55:58 <ais523> and never having met before, nonetheless deduced that they had a friend of a friend in common
20:56:04 <ais523> i.e. four degrees of separation
20:56:05 <kmc> when Red Hat obfuscates their kernel patches to make it harder for Oracle to compete, it's somehow Oracle's fault
20:56:19 <ais523> the surprise is not in the degree of separation, but in the fact that they managed to work it out
20:57:43 <elliott> ais523: did they work it out independently? that would be more impressive
20:58:21 <ais523> elliott: via communicating with each other
20:58:30 <ais523> I'm also not sure what possessed them to start working it out
20:59:05 <Bike> sometimes i think i'm missing out on "hacker culture" when y'all talk about oracle being evil or whatever but then i notice it seems kind of terrible
20:59:40 <ais523> Bike: there are multiple such cultures, some of which are terrible
21:00:01 <ais523> there's reasonable evidence for oracle being dubious, at least, so it depends on how much you care
21:00:13 <ais523> there's actually a whole forum on tdwtf for oracle-bashing
21:00:17 <kmc> yeah I don't claim Oracle is not evil
21:00:24 <ais523> although it was added mostly as a joke
21:00:35 <kmc> I think Google / Apple / Microsoft / etc. are also pretty evil
21:00:38 <kmc> big companies tend to be evil
21:01:07 <ais523> Microsoft is at least reasonably consistent
21:01:09 <kmc> and yes "hacker culture" is a cesspool
21:01:27 <Vorpal> ais523, Apple is fairly consistent too, no?
21:01:29 <ais523> kmc: what culture are you talking about, specifically? some examples would help
21:01:35 <Vorpal> ais523, patents patents patents
21:01:38 <kmc> eh I rant about it enough as is
21:01:40 <ais523> Vorpal: that's more recent
21:04:00 <Sgeo> http://gkoberger.github.com/stacksort/
21:04:10 <ais523> Sgeo: already seen it from reddit
21:04:20 <ais523> incidentally, I was planning to implement an esolang like that
21:04:29 <ais523> except instead of doing sorting, you'd give it a number as the prorgam
21:04:30 <Bike> "If you like running arbitrary code in your browser," DO I
21:04:47 <ais523> and it'd take the majority opinion of submissions to the matching anarchy golf program
21:04:56 <Bike> holy damn, it actually works
21:05:09 <Bike> after 30 tries
21:05:18 <ais523> also, you run arbitrary third-party code in your browser every time you view an advert that isn't just a static image or text
21:05:33 <Bike> yes, that's why i didn't really care (though i have those blocked usually)
21:05:57 <Vorpal> ais523, I don't allow that. NoScript.
21:06:24 <Vorpal> This thing is probably safer than ads though
21:06:25 <ais523> Vorpal: indeed, many people don't allow that, but most people do
21:06:56 <Bike> i live dangerously
21:13:32 <oerjan> <ais523> whereas there is one former-regular who was south african
21:13:58 <oerjan> there has been at least one new zealander too
21:18:28 <oerjan> `pastelogs monkey.*joined
21:18:41 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.5435
21:20:37 <oerjan> `seen GreaseMonkey ever
21:20:44 <HackEgo> 2012-01-12 23:09:25: <GreaseMonkey> multitasking
21:26:15 <boily> was there ever a her here?
21:26:49 <boily> (I won't even ask for itses. every bot has its own bot here.)
21:27:57 <fizzie> fungot: Do you have your own bot?
21:27:58 <fungot> fizzie: so there is something called " 3m". this has nothing to to but i don't
21:28:02 <elliott> there is a her™ in the channel right now :P
21:29:58 <lmt> i miss vixey :(
21:35:11 <ais523> nickserv says that 3m isn't taken, so presumably we can use it as the name for fungot's bot
21:35:12 <fungot> ais523: what those numbers mean? riastradh ( i assume you're awake). and of course the function call, so you're probably right
21:35:34 <ais523> elliott: well alise uses female pronouns
21:36:07 <elliott> fungot: 3m isn't a number, it was a string
21:36:07 <fungot> elliott: but if stalin generates such labels, a more fnord friend of mine worked for a while while fully aware of the efficiency argument is small. if the child process
21:36:20 <elliott> fungot: i guess maybe you meant 3 million by it??
21:36:20 <fungot> elliott: not really related, but it's not really
21:36:29 <Bike> stalin is such a great name fora compiler
21:36:37 <Vorpal> <elliott> there is a her™ in the channel right now :P <-- who?
21:36:53 <fungot> elliott: we all hate windows, and all
21:36:57 <Vorpal> I know there has been a few before
21:37:07 <elliott> fungot has prescient accuracy
21:37:08 <fungot> elliott: personally i like writing programs in single expressions. :d) tai jotenki, mut ei ainakaa
21:37:18 <Bike> :d), what the fuck is that
21:37:22 <boily> fungot's speaking in tongues again...
21:37:23 <fungot> boily: yeah, that's a trivial prob.,. neither do activists. they've all got more pressing concerns. the gc needs to be a bunch of
21:37:24 <Phantom_Hoover> and of course most of the lurkers are of schrodinger's gender
21:37:43 <Bike> you lock the gender in a box to try to show how absurd copenhagen is?
21:37:44 <Vorpal> speaking of single expression, I might still have that irc bot in a single nested lambda expression in python you wrote around somewhere elliott
21:37:49 * boily lightly shakes fungot in a circular motion
21:37:50 <fungot> boily: now i'm telling miss piggy about money market funds!)
21:39:13 <Phantom_Hoover> it's the "trying to tell whether your nose is still there by feeling it with your tongue" smiley
21:39:27 <Bike> fuck you i can't do it :(
21:39:59 <fizzie> ais523: Given that "3m" starts with a number, I'd be kind of surprised if it were taken.
21:40:11 <fizzie> (Cf. ":leguin.freenode.net 432 * 3m :Erroneous Nickname")
21:40:33 <elliott> ais523: he was addressing me
21:40:34 <ais523> that's a really strong statement for something so minor
21:40:42 <ais523> elliott: yes, that's why I'm confused rather than angry
21:40:43 <elliott> omg i dont care that Bike said damn you to me
21:41:08 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> it's the "trying to tell whether your nose is still there by feeling it with your tongue" smiley
21:41:09 <Vorpal> <Bike> fuck you i can't do it :(
21:41:14 <Bike> oh we talked about this before and i forgot
21:41:21 <ais523> Fiora: we were discussing diversity in channel regulars
21:41:24 <fizzie> Ooh, vestigial #douglasdams Finnish bits again.
21:41:25 <Bike> Vorpal: there was someone on Ellen a few days ago who did it
21:41:29 <Fiora> elliott: and it's all bike's fault too. what a horrid person he is
21:41:54 <Bike> Vorpal: a tv show (yes, a chat show) hosted by Ellen deGeneres
21:41:54 <shachaf> i can confirm that Bike is horrid
21:41:59 <shachaf> Bicycle is not horrid, on the other hand
21:42:02 <ais523> they're like interview shows except with less content in the questions
21:42:05 <shachaf> imo Bicycle is a better name
21:42:09 <Bike> what about Bicyclidine
21:42:23 <lmt> neurodiversity in channel regulars
21:42:37 <Bike> i'm sure there are plenty of autists
21:42:52 <Fiora> there's probably at least one or two neurotypical people here?
21:43:02 <Bike> sometimes i wonder why "psychodiversity" isn't a thing but it turns out nobody even cares about neurodiversity so
21:43:03 <shachaf> Bike: (btw usernames gotta start witha lowercase letter but "we'll let it slide")
21:43:23 <lmt> Fiora: who
21:43:24 <shachaf> is a psychodiver like a psychonaut
21:43:29 <Vorpal> <ais523> they're like interview shows except with less content in the questions <-- so no hard hitting journalistic questions?
21:43:32 <Fiora> ummmm I don't know
21:43:34 <fizzie> Vorpal: Guinness says the current record-holder for "longest tongue" reaches 9.75 cm (3.8 in) from top lip to tip.
21:43:49 <ais523> Vorpal: I'm not entirely sure why they're popular
21:43:50 <fizzie> http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/media/1698229/Chanel%20Tapper%20main.jpg looks like it'd have no problems reaching the nose.
21:43:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that in a human?
21:44:10 <Bike> yeah, Ellen is kinda boring, I just happened to see it on TV.< 1363644030 973217 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
22:00:33 <fizzie> fungot: Do you have anything to say for yourself?
22:00:34 <fungot> fizzie: i am an idiot! i am overwhelmed by the amount of
22:00:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, it seems quite contrite, at least.
22:00:48 -!- Frooxius has joined.
22:01:03 <fizzie> fungot: It's all right, just don't let it happen again.
22:01:04 <fungot> fizzie: uh, that's not what i meant
22:01:13 <fizzie> fungot: What did you mean, then?
22:01:13 <fungot> fizzie: did that answer your question, and even i have that
22:01:54 <fungot> boily: ( i'm not really sure what you're doing? code?
22:02:11 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
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22:23:49 <boily> ah, cosmetics ingredients, you'll always surprise me. «Sodium Kokum Butterate». what the fungot is that.
22:23:50 <fungot> boily: beautiful women carrying pitchers of water will come up with something
22:42:47 <fizzie> (But the comment about separate checkouts sounds true too.)
22:43:29 <HackEgo> accesslog \ a.out \ bin \ brainfuck.fu \ canary \ Category:Self-modifying \ dbg.out \ dkVb20VL \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ lib \ link \ paste \ prefs \ prefs.bf \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ rainbow \ sgfoobar \ share \ slist.ori
22:43:39 <boily> `learn comedogenic is something that causes comedy when applied to the skin, e.g. an accelerated cream pie in parabolic motion.
22:43:56 -!- Frooxius has joined.
22:44:03 <boily> I can now go eat. 'night all!
22:44:06 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
22:44:08 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:44:51 <HackEgo> boily is Canadian or something. We are not sure about Canada's existence.
22:45:09 <ais523> indeed; we are sure that Ottawa exists
22:45:12 <ais523> but not 100% sure it's in Canada
22:45:16 <olsner> I think boily is the man eating chicken
22:45:53 <olsner> shachaf: we can't put it in wisdom until we know it exists
22:46:41 <shachaf> `run mv wisdom/ngevd . && grep -i exist wisdom/* && mv ngevd wisdom/
22:46:51 <HackEgo> wisdom/boily:boily is Canadian or something. We are not sure about Canada's existence. \ wisdom/olsner:olsner seems to exist at least.
22:46:53 <oerjan> <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: no, that's norwegian <-- DON'T BE SILLY
22:47:43 <olsner> oerjan: what are you going to do about it? swat me?
22:47:56 <elliott> I'm not sure Ottawa exists.
22:48:06 <elliott> for a start, I'm not sure the plane ais523 was on actually flew to Ottawa and not some kind of fake Ottawa.
22:48:13 <elliott> also, I'm not sure ais523 exists, so his testimony is unreliable.
22:48:40 <ais523> elliott: well, either a fake ottawa is distinguishable from a real ottawa, or indistinguishable
22:48:50 <olsner> let's just define Ottawa as whatever he flew to
22:48:56 <ais523> if it's indistinguishable, then it's reasonably philosophically an ottawa
22:49:10 <elliott> ais523: it's distinguishable by not being the real ottawa, by definition
22:49:32 <ais523> otoh, there's no proof that the plane landed in canada
22:50:00 <ais523> although I have enough of a grasp of geography, combined with looking out of the windows a lot, to suspect that it's at least approximately geographically in the area where Canada is rumoured to be
22:50:31 <ais523> elliott: also, as for not being sure I exist: the alternative is that someone invented me, and that thought is horrifying
22:50:55 <olsner> err, but if someone invented you, you would exist
22:52:47 <olsner> in fact, with all this talking about whether canada exists or not, haven't we invented canada?
22:52:48 <ais523> well doesn't the fact that I accidentally assumed I exist
22:52:51 <ais523> mean that I'm not lying about it?
22:53:03 <ais523> olsner: do we know enough about Canada to be able to invent it via mere description?
22:53:31 <ais523> the salient facts about it are that it's rumoured to exist, there are esolangers who claim to be aware of it (even inside it), and that it's won Agora
22:54:27 <olsner> hmm, how much do you need to know about something in order to invent it? do we have to know that we invented it? do we have to know its name even?
22:54:50 <ais523> I guess you need to be able to come up with plausible replies to questions about it
22:54:55 <ais523> "I don't know" stops being plausible after a while
22:55:02 <lmt> i believe these concerns are adequately addressed in Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius
22:55:51 <elliott> ais523: we could apply an ontological argument type thing
22:56:05 <elliott> canada is the greatest thing, something is greater if it really exists as opposed to just being rumoured to exist...
22:56:19 <elliott> or perhaps all we need to do is agree that it is more canadian for something to exist than for it not to exist
22:56:24 <elliott> and obviously, canada is maximally canadian
22:56:59 <ais523> elliott: this reminds me of the argument that god must exist due to being defined as having all positive properties, including existence
22:57:58 <shachaf> I liked Raymond Smullyan's arguments about that!
22:58:11 <olsner> i somehow think that canada would become more canadian the less it exists
22:58:24 <elliott> ais523: yes, that's the ontological argument...
22:58:40 <ais523> elliott: wow, it actually has a /name/?
22:58:51 <ais523> shachaf: I probably learned about it from Smullyan
22:58:52 <elliott> ais523: of course, Gödel even made his own version
22:58:59 <ais523> elliott: it strikes me as not particularly convincing
22:59:15 <lmt> everyone made a version
22:59:21 <lmt> it's a popular argument
22:59:37 <shachaf> He had some fun variations.
22:59:39 <elliott> ais523: "the argument does not, to a modern mind, seem very convincing, but it is easier to feel convinced that it must be fallacious than it is to find out precisely where the fallacy lies" -- Bertrand Russell -- Wikipedia
23:00:05 <lmt> a bunch of famouse people after russell worked with it
23:00:19 <ais523> elliott: the problem is that it's a circular argument
23:00:35 <ais523> in order for it even to matter that something has particular properties, it first has to exist
23:00:45 <elliott> what do you mean by "matter"?
23:01:06 <lmt> i define unicorns as horses with horns that exist
23:01:15 <lmt> therefore, unicorns exist
23:02:00 <ais523> elliott: if something doesn't exist, then the universe is the same regardless of what properties it would have if it existed
23:02:20 <elliott> lmt: that doesn't really match the structure of the ontological argument at all
23:02:25 <shachaf> ais523: imo everything exists
23:02:42 <elliott> in particular, you don't even assert that the definition of unicorns implies that unicorns necessarily exist
23:03:13 <lmt> but it does
23:03:14 <kmc> i smell curry's paradox
23:03:17 <lmt> because it says "they exist"
23:03:20 <lmt> right in the definition
23:03:29 <ais523> kmc: which one is that?
23:03:37 <shachaf> ais523: "If this sentence is true then 1=0"
23:03:41 <elliott> kmc: I don't think the ontological argument is like Curry's paradox, really
23:03:58 <elliott> I'm not saying there aren't good arguments against it but I don't think these are it :P
23:03:58 <shachaf> Existence is not a property that some things have and some things don't.
23:04:24 <shachaf> It isn't the case that there are unicorns, but none of them have the property of existence.
23:04:27 <shachaf> There are just no unicorns.
23:04:31 <ais523> curry's paradox is logically equivalent to epimenides' paradox, isn't it?
23:04:48 <elliott> shachaf: I think it's more what you call "god" in the argument is equivalent to "idea_of_god"
23:04:58 <Arc_Koen> shachaf: who are you kidding? ALL unicorns have the property of existence
23:04:59 <elliott> and then the predicate of it existing means that "something which matches this idea exists".
23:05:31 <ais523> Arc_Koen: that statement is one I think everyone agrees with
23:05:50 <olsner> all unicorns have all properties?
23:06:39 <shachaf> Because P = P -> Q ---> P = !P || Q?
23:06:41 <ais523> about the closest I could get to what I was looking for is "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fictional_ungulates"
23:07:02 <elliott> ais523: I don't think everyone accepts that every element of the empty set has all properties
23:07:23 <ais523> I was trying to find a list of fictional unicorns
23:07:24 <elliott> like I think paraconsistent type stuff might avoid that?
23:07:49 <lmt> oh Everyone knows that dragons don't exist. But while this simplistic
23:07:49 <lmt> formulation may satisfy the layman, it does not suffice for the scientific
23:07:49 <lmt> mind. The School of Higher Neantical Nillity is in fact wholly unconcerned
23:07:49 <lmt> with what ____does exist. Indeed, the banality of existence has been
23:07:49 <lmt> so amply demonstrated, there is no need for us to discuss it any further
23:07:51 <lmt> here. The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically,
23:07:54 <lmt> discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical,
23:07:56 <lmt> and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent,
23:07:59 <lmt> but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ...
23:08:00 <ais523> but Wikipedia appears not to list them
23:08:01 <lmt> -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad"
23:08:21 <ais523> lmt: no copyvios, please
23:09:00 <lmt> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_legendary_creatures_by_type
23:09:08 <lmt> Unicorn is listed under "Fertility and human sexuality"
23:09:16 <lmt> omg my innocence :o
23:09:21 <ais523> lmt: the innuendos are far too easy
23:09:30 <olsner> Borges commented, "Not granting me the Nobel Prize has become a Scandinavian tradition; since I was born they have not been granting it to me."
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23:10:27 <olsner> now that he's dead, are we still observing the tradition or did that become impossible?
23:10:58 <ais523> olsner: now I'm reminded of the headmaster at my secondary school attempting to create traditions via decree
23:11:10 <ais523> if the decree is effective enough, it might eventually become a tradition
23:11:17 <ais523> but you can't immediately cause something to become a tradition
23:12:53 <ais523> "how do you know that unicorns exist? well, have you ever seen a unicorn that /doesn't/ exist?"
23:13:28 <olsner> did you make that up now or is it a quote?
23:13:52 <ais523> it's not a direct quote of anything, but it may have been influenced by things I saw in the past
23:14:07 <shachaf> Everything you say has been influenced by things you saw in the past.
23:14:39 <olsner> now, if he doesn't exist, can he have seen things in the past?
23:15:09 <kmc> mouth full of bees :'(
23:15:56 <olsner> mouthless alien with two eyes and eight brains
23:16:17 <lmt> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dQtFpuylpA
23:16:21 <shachaf> Bee bearding is the practice of wearing several hundred thousand honey bees on the face, usually as a sideshow-type demonstration at agricultural shows.
23:16:25 <shachaf> Several hundred thousand?!
23:16:42 <lmt> shachaf: that just means a hive
23:16:56 <lmt> hives are pretty big
23:17:04 <shachaf> alt. bees are pretty small
23:17:39 <lmt> they are very small if you squash them
23:18:49 <oerjan> if you squash some, the rest will go into a rage iiuc, which is a bad idea if you are using them for your beard.
23:19:38 <ais523> well wearing bees strikes me as a bad idea in the first place
23:19:39 <lmt> that's why you squash them before guing them to your chin
23:19:49 <lmt> using a commercial grade bee squasher
23:19:59 <ais523> I would recommend against it
23:20:10 <oerjan> ais523: so one should beware of wearing bees?
23:20:11 <lmt> it's better than wearing nothing at all
23:20:25 <shachaf> imo wearing nothing at all is preferable to wearing bees
23:22:20 <lmt> wearing bees is worth it just for the puns
23:23:11 <lmt> http://totallycoolpix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/23072011_coolest_pix_week_29/week29_022.jpg
23:23:24 <lmt> i have no idea what that display says
23:23:35 <lmt> is it a bee counter
23:23:53 * shachaf is not a fan of bees on a personal level.
23:23:59 <elliott> presumably it's counting down time or something
23:24:05 <lmt> bees are your friends though
23:24:10 <shachaf> I'll let them bee if they let me be.
23:24:28 <oerjan> lmt: shachaf doesn't _want_ to befriend them
23:24:31 <kmc> presumably it counts down and then displays BEEEES
23:24:39 <lmt> oh it is a scale
23:24:49 <lmt> Wang won the competition after attracting 26 kg (57 lbs) of bees on his body in 60 minutes
23:25:13 <olsner> how does warring weary bees compare to wearing wary bees?
23:25:50 <lmt> if i had some bees, i would bee your friend
23:26:00 <kmc> ais523: it could be like that ant problem from ICFP
23:26:15 <ais523> oh yes, although that one seems kind-of limited
23:26:35 <kmc> we did that one in school except the prof came up with a strange variation
23:26:48 <kmc> if an ant is surrounded, it dies and turns into 6 food
23:26:54 <shachaf> ais523: would that have a busy bee function
23:26:59 <kmc> but additionally, you can drop 1 food on the middle of your ant hill and get 1 new ant
23:27:08 -!- Borgrel has joined.
23:27:18 <kmc> so the winning strategy is...
23:27:28 <Sgeo> ZipList fs <*> ZipList xs = ZipList (zipWith id fs xs)
23:27:41 <Sgeo> Any particular reason to use id instead of ($)?
23:27:50 <Sgeo> ($) seems like it describes the intent more
23:28:15 <ais523> ($) is the same as id, right?
23:28:20 <kmc> @let ego = id
23:28:23 <ais523> it's obvious I'm just not thinking atm
23:28:30 <shachaf> ais523: Yes, with a different type.
23:28:31 <ais523> so I'm not sure which way it's obvious
23:28:34 <olsner> shachaf: if you use spaces where you don't have to
23:28:35 <Sgeo> ($) is type restricted id
23:28:41 <ais523> oh, only works on functions
23:28:59 <shachaf> There's also this variation: ($) !f = \x -> f x
23:29:02 <ais523> this reminded me of someone talking about Verity's potential issues with accepting incorrect code
23:29:12 <ais523> someone accidentally wrote bitwise OR (|) rather than parallel composition (||)
23:29:14 <olsner> "($)" saves one character compared to " id "
23:29:22 <ais523> and it didn't reject it because it treats commands as 0-bit numbers
23:29:29 <ais523> and it knows how to bitwise OR those
23:29:40 <ais523> but the synthesizer complained that it didn't
23:29:44 <ais523> which is interesting, I guess
23:29:47 <kmc> is verity the categorical dual of coverity
23:29:50 <ais523> should probably add a specific error message for that
23:29:56 <ais523> kmc: I don't think so, although that would be interesting
23:29:59 <HackEgo> Borgrel: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:30:14 <ais523> it's more like algol disguised as not-algol, with a particularly hardware-focused set of primitives
23:30:21 <Sgeo> kmc, sorry from derailing you from your game
23:30:24 <elliott> shachaf: isn't ($) defined as f $ x = f x?
23:30:25 <olsner> kmc: would that be something that hides bugs in code instead of finding them?
23:30:27 <Sgeo> What's the winning strategy?
23:30:34 <kmc> "algol disguised as not-algol" <-- like every imperative language am i rite
23:30:36 <shachaf> elliott: Yes. That's why it's a variation.
23:30:40 <ais523> Sgeo: well in game semantics you're not trying to win
23:30:43 <ais523> just reach the end of the game
23:30:45 <elliott> <ais523> ($) is the same as id, right?
23:30:48 <elliott> <shachaf> ais523: Yes, with a different type.
23:31:01 <kmc> rude to show your ⊥ in public
23:31:02 <Sgeo> > (undefined id) `seq` ()
23:31:12 <elliott> kmc: well most imperative languages don't disguise themselves as ML
23:31:15 <elliott> which is what verity seems to do
23:31:19 <ais523> Sgeo: you have that backwards
23:31:23 <ais523> > (id undefined) `seq` ()
23:31:31 <ais523> not that it makes a difference, but…
23:31:39 <ais523> well it does, the test wouldn't work otherwise
23:31:44 <ais523> just the broken test produced the same result as the correct test
23:31:53 <ais523> > (undefined `id`) `seq` ()
23:32:02 <ais523> ooh, didn't know Haskell would let me do that
23:32:16 <ais523> this seems like a minor technique in writing obfuscated Haskell
23:32:36 <shachaf> What, sections of non-operators?
23:33:12 <ais523> it's like currying just backwards
23:33:28 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:6: parse error on input `)'
23:33:33 <ais523> OK, I can't section it both ways
23:33:38 <shachaf> ais523: I consider that a bug in Haskell. :-(
23:33:42 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:4: parse error on input `('
23:33:52 <elliott> I wish `expression` worked.
23:33:53 <shachaf> `` takes an identifier, not an expression.
23:33:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `: not found
23:34:10 <ais523> elliott: clearly you need directed quotes
23:34:25 <ais523> or alternatively, both ` and “
23:34:29 <elliott> IIRC Haskell papers usually do that
23:34:30 <oerjan> elliott: `(...)` wouldn't be ambiguous
23:34:31 <shachaf> elliott: Isn't it great when you don't have to write parentheses somewhere?
23:34:38 <elliott> oerjan: but it would be ugly.
23:34:40 <shachaf> Like matching on (a, x:xs)
23:34:42 <ais523> elliott: yeah, because LaTeX does that by default and it's awkward to tell it not to
23:34:53 <elliott> oerjan: I think I've had a good example of `f x` being useful before
23:35:00 <elliott> maybe involving a higher-order function f
23:35:29 <elliott> maybe just only allow nesting if you use parens.
23:35:33 <oerjan> ais523: i like to use (`f` x) rather than flip f x sometimes
23:35:45 <elliott> so `...`...`...` nests iff you have ( in the first ... and ) in the last.
23:36:18 <nooodl> x `compare (`on`) fst` y
23:36:36 <elliott> nooodl: that's compare on fst
23:37:09 <nooodl> oh the ()s were "nesting"
23:37:39 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: (compare: not found
23:37:41 <nooodl> i forgot (`f`) is a thing
23:40:39 <nooodl> wow, i scrolled up a bit and i'm tired and i read about everyone talking about how "<$> is the same as id, right?" and i thought i was going insane
23:41:12 <oerjan> > (1,2) & compare `on` fst $ (3,4)
23:41:14 <lambdabot> cannot mix `Data.Function.on' [infixl 0] and ...
23:41:36 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: on`: not found
23:41:37 <oerjan> > (1,2) & (compare `on` fst) $ (3,4)
23:42:21 <elliott> you made this bed shachaf. you have to lie in it. in fact I'm lying in it for you. it's comfortable
23:42:45 <oerjan> > (compare `on` fst) ?? (3,4) $ (1,2)
23:43:33 <lambdabot> Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b
23:44:38 <Bike> it's got too many parentheses
23:44:42 <nooodl> hmm... it's defined generally for functors?
23:45:06 <shachaf> Well, one generalisation of flip is that.
23:45:11 <shachaf> (r -> a -> b) -> a -> r -> b
23:45:28 <shachaf> There are other potential generalizations, of course.
23:45:40 <shachaf> Just like (.) can generalised to fmap or (Control.Category..)
23:45:43 <olsner> ais523: whales are ungulates and narwhals have one horn ... they must be unicorns
23:45:49 <Bike> generalerization
23:46:34 * elliott doesn't think anyone has yet used (??) for an f that isn't ((->) r)
23:47:41 <oerjan> elliott: i don't see why, it's a useful addition to applicative syntax
23:47:44 <nooodl> i guess you could generalize it for ((->) a) as well: (??') :: Functor f => (r -> f b) -> f (r -> b)
23:47:57 <elliott> oerjan: I'm not saying it's inherently unuseful
23:48:11 <nooodl> (iirc there's a word for "unuseful")
23:48:14 <elliott> I'm saying edwardk claimed it'd be useful because lens uses (a -> f b) things all over the place and as far as I know this hasn't actually turned out to be true :P
23:48:29 <elliott> nooodl: hmm, that looks like Distributive
23:48:55 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `distrib' (imported from Control.Lens)
23:49:22 <elliott> {--} distribute (++) "abc" "def"
23:49:25 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/distributive/0.3.1/doc/html/Data-Distributive.html
23:49:29 <elliott> the one true generalisation of (??)????
23:49:32 <nooodl> i can't think of an implementation for (??') ugh
23:49:40 <oerjan> elliott: in fact i think ?? (maybe not with that syntax) should be a Functor method, like <$
23:49:40 <lambdabot> Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b
23:49:47 <elliott> nooodl: it's not implementable
23:50:15 <elliott> oerjan: ok but look at distribute. isn't that totally the best flip generalisation
23:50:34 <elliott> I wonder if (Functor f, Distributive g) => f (g a) -> g (f a) is doable
23:50:38 <elliott> which would be a strict generalisation of (??)
23:50:51 <elliott> that's exactly what I wrote.
23:50:57 <elliott> so distribute is a strict generalisation of (??)
23:51:07 <elliott> shachaf: you have to promise not to tell edwardk.
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23:51:55 <nooodl> "comapM [...] The dual of mapM: comapM f = fmap f . distributeM"
23:51:59 <nooodl> you people and your co's
23:52:09 <elliott> well Distributive is Cotraversable
23:53:09 <nooodl> would "comap f = fmap f . distribute = fmap f . flip", that sounds like a good function
23:53:45 <nooodl> wait. i think it's actually something extremely boring
23:55:14 <Bike> imo this channel should do numerical analysis instead of these oneliners
23:55:44 <Phantom_Hoover> why do you have to ruin something moderately cool like analysis with numbers
23:56:13 <lmt> fuck numbas
23:56:39 <lambdabot> (?f::f b1 -> b, Functor f) => f (a -> b1) -> a -> b
23:57:12 <lambdabot> Functor f => (f b1 -> b) -> f (a -> b1) -> a -> b
23:57:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: flip flip is not flip
23:57:28 <lambdabot> (a -> ((a1 -> b -> c1) -> b -> a1 -> c1) -> c) -> a -> c
23:57:30 <lambdabot> Functor f => a -> f (a -> b) -> f b
23:57:32 <lambdabot> (a1 -> ((a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c) -> c1) -> a1 -> c1
23:57:34 <elliott> :t flip flip flip flip flip
23:57:35 <lambdabot> (a1 -> ((a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c) -> c1) -> a1 -> c1
23:57:40 <elliott> :t flip flip flip flip flip flip
23:57:42 <lambdabot> (a1 -> ((a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c) -> c1) -> a1 -> c1
23:58:01 <elliott> :t flip flip flip flip flip flip flip
23:58:02 <lambdabot> (a1 -> ((a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c) -> c1) -> a1 -> c1
23:58:06 <elliott> strange, I was sure that would break the cycle.
23:58:30 <lambdabot> (Functor f1, Functor f) => f ((f1 (a -> b1) -> a -> f1 b1) -> b) -> f b
23:58:36 <oerjan> :t (??) (??) (??) (??)
23:58:38 <lambdabot> (Functor f1, Functor f) => f1 ((f (a -> b) -> a -> f b) -> b1) -> f1 b1
23:58:44 <oerjan> :t (??) (??) (??) (??) (??)
23:58:46 <lambdabot> (Functor f1, Functor f) => f1 ((f (a -> b) -> a -> f b) -> b1) -> f1 b1
23:58:51 <nooodl> > let cool f = fmap f . flip in cool (\f -> [f 1, f (f 1)]) (+) 5
00:01:04 <nooodl> (fmap f . flip) f g x = fmap f (flip f) g x = (f . flip f) g x = f (flip f g) x... it still doesn't make much sense
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00:12:33 <Sgeo> ZipLists are so verbose to use :(
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00:31:25 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, after I finish this last episode of Space Cadets, I'll go watch another episode of Farscape. How's PMMM coming?
00:37:06 <Sgeo> Kind of weird to think a hoax saved someone's life
00:37:13 <Sgeo> (As in, the guy who gave up smoking)
00:40:22 <elliott> calling that life-saving is a little rich...
00:42:54 <ais523> it's life-prolonging, on average
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00:48:48 <Fiora> there's an amusing irony in your fake answers
00:49:13 <Fiora> since eventually one realizes that the whole point of madoka magica is that she can't be allowed to use the magic
00:49:21 <elliott> those are fake blocks again aren't they.
00:49:26 <elliott> you're not going to fool me this time.
00:49:26 <Fiora> (no, they're real)
00:49:30 <Bike> NO DON'T DO IT ELLIOTT
00:49:52 <elliott> it is like a reflex when i see spoiler markings of any sort
00:50:24 <pikhq_> Mmm, Mahō Shōjo Madoka Magika. Good series.
00:52:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, (my impression of this series is that it is a brilliant deconstruction of a genre to which i have never been exposed)
00:53:06 <Bike> (haha, deconstruction)
00:53:13 <Fiora> maybe a little? but not really
00:53:21 <Sgeo> fwiw, I haven't really had exposure to the genre in question myself
00:53:50 <Fiora> it's a wonderful self-contained story that you don't need to watch anything else to enjoy
00:53:50 <Phantom_Hoover> i'll have to fall back on 'animes are for little girls and gay'
00:54:04 <Fiora> but the gay is one of the best reasons to watch it :<
00:54:13 <Bike> excuse status: annihilated
00:54:17 <Fiora> that's like "I won't eat the cake because of the wonderfully tasty fudge chocolate"
00:54:33 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Are you suggesting that gay is bad?
00:54:44 <Bike> i think he's suggesting that he's being silly
00:54:52 <pikhq_> Each time you say that I will fuck a man.
00:55:06 <Bike> is the man hot
00:55:15 <pikhq_> Bike: Well yes. I have some taste.
00:55:24 <pikhq_> *echm* Bow chicka wow wow
00:55:37 <elliott> what you have to realise is that Phantom_Hoover is too busy insulting bf derivatives on his incredibly popular blog
00:55:41 <elliott> to do anything else whatsoever
00:55:54 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Sounds like it's gonna be quite an orgy.
00:55:59 <elliott> in fact he outsources his IRC presence. we're not talking to the real phantom hoover
00:56:06 <Sgeo> Should I feel insulted that Braintrust hasn't been insulted?
00:56:18 * Sgeo slaps self for blatant obsessivism
00:56:50 <elliott> in fact the real PH hasn't even seen farscape. it's just that 2/3rds of his 3-person IRC team really like it
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00:58:26 <Phantom_Hoover> we tried putting it in the corner of his screen while he was writing screeds about bf derivatives
00:58:56 <Phantom_Hoover> results so far have been inconclusive but promising trends have been noted in his writing style
00:59:18 <Bike> kinda ruining my immersion here phantom hoover
00:59:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover is kind of like the martin luther of esolangs
00:59:30 <elliott> note that I know almost nothing about martin luther
00:59:31 <Bike> i need to believe i'm really on the same IRC channel as the incredibly popular phantom hoover
00:59:35 <elliott> other than that he was probably kind of a drag to be around
00:59:36 <Bike> he was really anti semitic
00:59:52 <Bike> on a scale of "pretty cool" to "hitler" what would you say your opinion on jews is
01:00:02 <Bike> that's not on the scale
01:00:12 <elliott> if you answer hitler does that mean you think jews are as good as hitler
01:00:20 <elliott> because i'm not sure that is actually possible
01:00:24 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover is actually a committee??
01:00:45 <elliott> well i guess if you're like
01:00:45 <elliott> an antisemite who really hates moustaches
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01:01:18 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what if you hate hitler for ruining antisemitism
01:01:34 <elliott> is probably an opinion someone atcually has
01:04:04 <elliott> your support means a lot to me.
01:06:11 <ais523> elliott: well sometimes I ask for yours
01:06:19 <ais523> e.g. when I'm not sure I have the right opinion
01:07:05 <ais523> or when I'm failing to understand Haskell as usual
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02:38:19 <Sgeo> Time to watch ep 6 of Farscape
02:38:49 <Sgeo> "Thank God It's Friday. Again." sounds time travelley
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02:47:10 <Sgeo> I found my glasses. It's nice having depth perception.
02:49:58 <shachaf> elliott: Are you kidding? That's great!
02:50:10 <elliott> I have no idea what you're referencing
02:50:15 <Sgeo> elliott, is this a decent guide? http://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/f3efg
02:51:57 <shachaf> elliott: You really don't want to mention it to edwardk?
02:52:18 <elliott> do you really want more inscrutable lens type errors?
02:54:32 <shachaf> imo distribute is much better than current (??)
03:02:09 <elliott> shachaf: except Distributive just means "isomorphic to (k ->) for some k"
03:02:24 <shachaf> The point is that you're not making up a new type.
03:02:36 <shachaf> Dstributive already exists, and this is just a new name for it.
03:02:52 <elliott> maybe the infix should be in distributive instead.
03:03:02 <elliott> and lens should just depend on it for one stupid function so it can reexport it.
03:03:03 <shachaf> Wait, isn't that Representable?
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03:19:04 <HackEgo> monqy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:19:19 <Bike> dal?? really shachaf????
03:28:17 <Sgeo> wtf hown did I fail to recognize that symbol until Crichton said it?
03:42:58 <Sgeo> The Peacekeeper symbol
03:43:45 <Phantom_Hoover> fun fact, that symbol is based on a work of bolshevik propaganda
03:44:06 <Phantom_Hoover> (apparently the russians are very inspired by triangles)
03:44:33 <Sgeo> I finished the episode
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04:23:55 <Sgeo> Is /r/buildapcforme generally good?
04:38:38 <HackEgo> Bike: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
04:39:14 <Bike> you going anywhere tonight, elliott? let's say you and me hit up the clubs and then awkwardly fuck
04:39:15 <kmc> `bike welcome
04:39:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bike: not found
04:39:31 <kmc> how many hookups has #esoteric facilitate
04:39:39 <elliott> going to guess somewhere in the region of 0
04:39:45 <Bike> it's not so much a hookup as it is a fuckup
04:40:03 <Fiora> if not hookups can we at least, like, ship people?
04:40:09 <Fiora> elliott x kmc otp or something
04:40:51 <lmt> is everyone in this channel gay
04:41:07 <pikhq_> I don't think even most of us are gay.
04:41:48 <lmt> you guys are behind the times
04:42:07 <Bike> more like BEHIND the times
04:42:15 <kmc> haha, butts
04:42:23 <Bike> always a good joke, butts
04:42:35 <kmc> always... the butt of a joke
04:45:43 <lmt> im serious
04:58:19 <shachaf> My sister is a big fan of "shipping", apparently.
05:00:30 <Bike> Does she help with your cosplays
05:02:02 <shachaf> She doesn't like that comic, I don't think.
05:03:29 <Sgeo> Oh hey HackEgo's fixed
05:04:20 <pikhq_> lmt: But yeah. Sadly I'm only, like, half-gay.
05:06:21 * Sgeo is either straight or mostly straight
05:07:16 <Bike> Have you tried fucking a dude? Or like, let's be imaginative, a horse. Just to check.
05:07:54 <pikhq_> Rather sure it doesn't work that way.
05:08:21 <shachaf> Bike truly has a way with words.
05:08:27 <Bike> are you a horse pikhq
05:08:55 <Sgeo> I wish I could choose my sexuality. Would choose to either be bisexual or asexual.
05:09:02 <Sgeo> Not sure which
05:09:25 <pikhq_> Also, sex is pretty fun.
05:10:06 <Sgeo> People getting mad because of staring is not fun
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05:10:46 <monqy> do you stare at people sgeo. is this a problem
05:10:51 <kmc> dongs everywhere
05:11:04 <shachaf> i stare at people. but only if they are monqy
05:11:17 <pikhq_> kmc: I know that feel.
05:11:23 <pikhq_> Well actually I don't.
05:11:32 <Bike> the monqystaring feel
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05:33:52 <fungot> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
05:34:44 <HackEgo> Sgeo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:35:58 <shachaf> Bike: Are you in Portland?
05:36:09 <HackEgo> elliott: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:36:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welliott: not found
05:36:39 <Bike> Portland metro.
05:38:06 <shachaf> Bike: what are you doing in portland you're a bike you don't...... never mind i guess
05:38:20 <Fiora> Sgeo: I'm not sure if I'd recommend asexuality, it's not that fun
05:38:51 <Bike> shachaf: uh have you ever seen portland it's like 700% bikes
05:39:01 <shachaf> Bike: that's the never mind part......
05:39:01 <Fiora> I thought you were in washington
05:39:12 <shachaf> Fiora: Are you confusing me with Bike?
05:39:13 <Sgeo> My sexuality has only been actually _fun_ since maybe late 2011
05:39:17 <Bike> Fiora: portland metro stretches into washington.
05:39:21 <Sgeo> Before then it just caused problems
05:41:25 <shachaf> Bike: Weren't you in Seattle?
05:41:30 <shachaf> Seattle is not Portland metro!
05:41:50 <Bike> I wasn't in Seattle.
05:42:07 <Fiora> I was making a joke about bikes
05:42:14 <Bike> Jokes are hard.
05:42:28 <shachaf> Fiora: You *should* be sorry!
05:42:44 <Sgeo> I don't think it's something I want to just casually talk about in here. Just, I was not a perfect person when I was younger. Not... utterly evil I guess, I'm not a rapist or anything like that, but
05:43:03 <elliott> this is going fantastic places.
05:43:23 <monqy> don't you talk about it casually quite a bit already
05:43:43 <shachaf> isnt that basically "what Sgeo does"
05:43:54 <Bike> ugh i watched that onion video about football racists and now it's going to stick in my head uuuuugh help
05:44:08 <pikhq_> Yup. Talk casually about personal life and then be worried about it.
05:44:08 <Bike> i dunno probably both
05:44:14 <pikhq_> It's the last bit that's classic Sgeo.
05:45:13 <pikhq_> Sgeo: In the name of random. My sexuality only got "fun" since late 2012. Because that's when I lost my virginity. :P
05:46:04 <Sgeo> I had some fun times even before losing my virginity... and losing my virginity wasn't really that fun
05:46:46 <monqy> see this is what im talking about
05:47:28 <Sgeo> Some things I'm ok with talking about casually other things I'm not. Not a difficult concept.
05:48:50 <elliott> i find one of those halves really dubious
05:53:16 * coppro wonders how many karkat tantrum bingo boards exist by now
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06:59:44 <hagb4rd> <Sgeo>My sexuality has only been actually _fun_ since maybe late 2011. [..] Just, I was not a perfect person when I was younger <-- you mean younger in ..2011?!
06:59:47 <hagb4rd> you must have had vivid two years since then
07:00:06 <Sgeo> I mean before 2011
07:01:04 <hagb4rd> sgeo: okay..*phew* ..how old are you?
07:02:35 <hagb4rd> that must be the avarage age of folks in this channel.. right? i guess kmc is a little bit older
07:03:46 <kmc> how did i get to be the old one :(
07:04:05 <kmc> elliott is like 18 or something despite having the demeanor of a bitter old man like me
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07:07:26 <hagb4rd> <kmc>how did i get to be the old one :( <-- maybe not old but.. mature ;) anyone older than you kmc?
07:07:26 <hagb4rd> and i guess ..most of the people here still haven't finished college yet
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07:07:28 <hagb4rd> because you guys have too much time
07:09:03 <Sgeo> How is elliott already 18???
07:14:15 <kmc> you're not sure? :)
07:14:33 <Fiora> ... I'm... I'm pretty sure!
07:17:07 <Fiora> I don't think 25 counts as that old though :p
07:17:34 <Sgeo> current year - birth year - 1 if it's before your birthday this year, current year - birth year if it's after your birthday this year.
07:18:12 <kmc> thank you for explaining how birthdays work
07:18:39 <kmc> i'm just used to being the young one in my peer group
07:18:40 <hagb4rd> now explain how women work
07:18:43 <Sgeo> It tends to take me a moment
07:18:47 <kmc> started university 2 years early
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07:26:22 <hagb4rd> iirc you mentioned beeing employed at a software company..and that's all i can tell.. however! you're all pretty young and smart.
07:27:49 <Fiora> hagb4rd: we use the citric acid cycle to extract chemical bond energy from organic modules, powering a complex organization of self-aware nanomachines?
07:28:03 <Fiora> I think that's how we work. Not 100% sure though, some might work differently.
07:29:21 <hagb4rd> no i really didn't want to know how you work!
07:30:14 <Fiora> ummmmm um mixed piles of fangirl squees ? I don't know
07:31:00 <hagb4rd> you don't know. great! that's a good point to start!
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07:37:23 <hagb4rd> you know: where we are is always the whole world
07:39:42 <Lymia> !bfjoust stupid http://files.lymiahugs.com/best-50-47.txt
07:39:57 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stupid: 5.0
07:40:27 <Lymia> So... let's see if bfjoust evolvers failing is because of it being that hard, or because of bad representations :p
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07:47:31 <kmc> not the first time
07:49:32 <Sgeo> Huh, didn't know that citric acid cycle was a name for it
07:50:11 <Fiora> oh yay I guess I got it right
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08:32:57 <olsner> hmm, reading about borges, when suddenly one of the "See also" sections links to "List of lists of lists"
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10:05:12 <fizzie> Also, re logs, I'm older than kmc? That somehow doesn't sound right.
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11:04:55 <DHeadshot> "Least Welcoming channel on Freenode"? Surely that would be #irp!
11:06:08 <HackEgo> EVERYONE: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
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12:44:25 <oerjan> Fiora: if i cared about madoka spoilers i'd point out spoiler markings don't work in the logs.
12:45:26 <oerjan> also, there would be someone awake to read it.
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12:47:12 <fizzie> ^rainbow2 is not, though
12:47:12 <fungot> ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ...too much output!
12:52:33 <oerjan> <elliott> in fact the real PH hasn't even seen farscape. it's just that 2/3rds of his 3-person IRC team really like it <-- is there any overlap with the team that plays DMM?
12:55:54 <oerjan> oh farscape is australian too. probably there is overlap with the actor team too...
12:56:54 <oerjan> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think hitler made any bf derivatives
12:56:59 <HackEgo> 986) <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think hitler made any bf derivatives
13:05:11 -!- oerjan has set topic: The median welcoming channel on Freenode. You have been warned. | <Taneb> #esoteric is supposed to be about esoteric programming languages, but is really a couple of dozen people being weird | Newsflash: fungot has been writing spam for money. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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13:15:45 <ais523> haha, I just got an email from X, with reply-to: set to X's address, asking for a reply at Y
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13:23:04 <metasepia> CYUL 191311Z 07011KT 3/4SM R06L/2600FT/U R06R/2600FT/N -SN BLSN VV004 M02/M03 A2988 RMK SN8 SLP121
13:24:01 <boily> stupidweatherstupidpublictransportationdidn'tgetmycoffeeyetaaaaaaurgh!
13:30:13 <oerjan> hey i was just about to say that.
13:30:14 <fizzie> It's been stupidly cold here all this month. Overall average temperature for March has been around -8 °C; it's supposed to be around -1..-1.5 °C. Someone must've forgotten to bump the season variable.
13:30:28 <coppro> fizzie: you should file a complaint
13:31:13 <fizzie> Yes, maybe there's a web form. They might send me a gift card or something.
13:31:25 <oerjan> ais523: i _maybe_ kind of possibly think the wiki might currently be having a spam problem.
13:31:45 <ais523> oerjan: yeah but I can't fix it, I'm at work
13:31:51 <ais523> I'll fix it when I get home, if nobody else does first
13:32:22 * oerjan phones ais523's employers to sack him so he can fix the wiki
13:32:52 <ais523> oerjan: err, this is a really ironic day to make that threat
13:33:09 <ais523> was the last day of contact with this year's cohort of students, and I'm leaving at the end of the academic year
13:33:21 <ais523> so I hardly need to turn up from now on
13:34:29 <ais523> I enjoy working with them
13:36:43 <ais523> although one of the highlights of weirdness of today's marking session was that one of the students had (in Java) created a property in a class, with the same name as the class
13:36:48 <Fiora> oerjan: but but. you pointed it out. soooo you must care about spoilers !
13:37:14 <ais523> which is permitted by the compiler, but which cannot be done without violating capitalization constraints, as well as several other things wrong with it
13:37:16 <Fiora> (but seriously sorry, I didn't know the logs stripped colors :<)
13:37:26 <ais523> err, capitalization conventions
13:37:33 <ais523> Fiora: several clients strip colors too, I have mine set to do that
13:37:47 <ais523> also you can't know the background color, and most clients don't understand codes to set the background color
13:37:49 <oerjan> Fiora: they don't _strip_ them. they just don't interpret them as colors.
13:38:55 <Fiora> geez. is there some portable way then?
13:39:06 <Fiora> I've always been told to use ^C0,0 or something like that...
13:39:53 <ais523> only portable way to do spoilers in IRC is to put them in a different channel/query/privmsg
13:40:13 <ais523> I think the ^C0,0 thing not only isn't portable, it also only works in mIRC
13:40:13 <oerjan> once upon a time that was the kind of thing rot13 was used for.
13:40:37 <oerjan> ais523: it works in irssi
13:40:41 <ais523> actually, at least one unspoiled NetHack channel uses rot13
13:40:49 <Fiora> it works in irs-- what oerjan said <.<
13:41:04 <Fiora> I think it works in mibbit too? maybe xchat?
13:41:07 <boily> it works in the most bestest client of them all, the incredible weechat.
13:41:09 <Fiora> I don't know that many clients
13:42:49 <ais523> doesn't it only work in irssi if the terminal happens to have a background that's the same color as a black foreground?
13:43:02 <ais523> (as I discovered working on AceHack, this is not the same thing as a black background)
13:43:08 <Fiora> sets the background too, I think?
13:43:15 <Fiora> ^C0,0 sets the background too, I think?
13:43:23 <Fiora> like, on my client, ^C0,0 is all white
13:43:26 <Fiora> and ^C1,1 is all black
13:43:45 <ais523> the background color part of ^C isn't interpreted by that many clients
13:43:51 <ais523> frequently you're talking to someone using mIRC
13:43:56 <ais523> and just get stray commas and numbers
13:45:22 <boily> works here, and it's annoying. I have to go and use my mouse!
13:45:28 <oerjan> ais523: my irssi/putty setup understands background colors.
13:46:40 <Fiora> that's what I use too... I guess I'll try to be more careful though since it doesn't work with everything
13:47:40 <oerjan> i vaguely do recall i changed the white color for putty way back because it was actually a kind of light grey by default.
13:50:14 <oerjan> Fiora: on my client ^C0,0 is kind of medium light grey.
13:50:32 <Fiora> as long as they're the same color I guess? ^^;;
13:51:13 <oerjan> but that's ok, then i can see that the spoilers are _there_ :P (unlike some of that unicode people use. wtf chooses "invisible" as the representation for unknown characters?)
13:51:58 <fizzie> Unicode has a character for representing unknown characters, that's what arguably should get used.
13:52:51 <fizzie> Though I don't know what should be done if the system can't find a font with a glyph for U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER in it.
13:54:21 <oerjan> maybe that is the problem :P
13:54:59 <ais523> GTK appears to handle unknown characters by rendering a square with the hex digits of the codepoint in it
13:55:03 <ais523> or a rectangle, for the astral planes
14:00:45 <boily> the wonders of unicode, and mystic characters like ᢆ.
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14:03:25 <fizzie> It's not quite square for me even for BMP characters; the aspect ratio is around 0.82.
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15:17:30 <ais523> @tell oerjan I deleted the spam, also expanded an existing spam filter to help stop repeats in the future; there haven't been false positives recently, and if the spam continues I'll expand the filter further in order to do the delete+block automatically (after giving humans a chance to back out)
15:18:41 <Vorpal> ais523, do we require email verification before editing?
15:18:55 <Vorpal> not sure how effective that is, they could probably generate emails too
15:19:13 <ais523> Vorpal: no; we rely people to answer a question about esolangs whose answer is very obvious from the relevant article
15:19:26 <ais523> if they do that, we also require the first edit to not fit a recognised spambot pattern
15:19:39 <Vorpal> yet bots manage to bypass it sometimes?
15:19:47 <ais523> I just expanded the pattern
15:20:04 <ais523> to allow for the latest burst of spam
15:20:18 <ais523> if the first edit does fit the pattern, the user is told to go edit the sandbox instead to prove they're human
15:20:22 <Vorpal> I'm confused anyone would care adding code to handle such a custom "captcha system" for such a small site
15:20:31 <ais523> and the warning page has a clickable submit button
15:20:32 <Vorpal> doesn't seem worth the time
15:20:47 <ais523> so far the spambots appear to be using the submit button on the warning page
15:21:05 <ais523> which is a sufficiently clear sign that they're spambots that if they continue, I'll make it automatically block anyone who clicks it :)
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15:21:48 <Vorpal> ais523, though clicking through two dialogs or such after each other is a fairly common human error
15:21:55 <Vorpal> so best design it to avoid such mistakes
15:22:14 <ais523> Vorpal: yeah; that's part of the reason I haven't set it to block anyone yet
15:22:19 <ais523> even though there's the possibility of appealing
15:23:05 <ais523> (the mere presence of an appeal would be a sign that it was a human…)
15:23:24 <Taneb> Until the spambots catch on!
15:24:22 <ais523> yeah but fighting against really really sophisticated spambots is kind-of fun
15:24:41 <ais523> also they tend to only target Wikipedia, because no other site is really valuable enough to use that sort of spambot tweaking on
15:25:53 <Vorpal> ais523, exactly, which is why I'm surprised that some of them managed to answer the esolang quiz
15:26:03 <Vorpal> why did they bother handling that
15:26:30 <Taneb> Is there data on how many fail it?
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15:26:44 <Vorpal> the access log presumably
15:27:06 <Taneb> Haven't seen you in a while?
15:27:09 <ThatOtherPerson> We'll have a problem once a spambot passes the Turing test
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15:27:42 <ais523> Vorpal: I've heard that captcha-solving tends to be outsourced to humans nowadays
15:27:56 <Vorpal> ais523, and it is worth it on the esolang wiki?
15:28:01 <ais523> Taneb: and yeah, I don't have data on how many fail the captcha, just how many succeed
15:28:05 <ais523> Vorpal: no but they don't know that
15:28:16 <ais523> we put nofollow on all external links but they don't seem to care about that either
15:28:36 <ais523> or the occasional spambot actually does, they try to put a landing page on Esolang that entices humans to click a link
15:28:47 <ais523> and try to SEO the landing page rather than the link target
15:35:06 <ais523> it's a vaguely clever idea, at least
15:35:32 <ais523> Google have been trying to crack down on it for a while now
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16:20:03 <HackEgo> essakki: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:20:21 <ais523> gah, there is definitely something wrong with the "strip colors" option in Konversation
16:20:29 <ais523> to me, that was almost all regular color except that the parenthetical is orange
16:26:26 <fizzie> ais523: If it was exactly the parenthetical bit, that's curious, since there's not even any color change directly at the (.
16:26:55 <elliott> essakki: i think you may be a wee bit lost
16:28:23 <ais523> fizzie: that and the full stop after "Main_Page"
16:28:28 <ais523> ooh, I think I know what's happening
16:28:59 <ais523> can someone send something that consists of some white text, some colored text, a link within that colored text, more of that colored text, then some text in a different color?
16:29:40 <ais523> err, by "white text" I mean default color
16:29:59 <ais523> text text http://example.com text text
16:30:19 <ais523> it looks OK when I send it, but perhaps if it's in someone else's message…
16:30:26 <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!text text http://example.com text text
16:30:26 <fungot> text text http://example.com text text
16:30:51 <ais523> does fungot strip color codes?
16:31:24 <ais523> ^bf +.>,[.,]<.!action test
16:31:24 <fungot> <CTCP>action test<CTCP>
16:34:18 <fizzie> And "age. (For the ot" was all in one colour.
16:34:22 <fizzie> (I'm kind of food-making here.)
16:36:31 <ais523> it looks to me like recovering after the link is what made the color code actually appear
16:36:32 <fizzie> Some white text some colored text, a link within http://example.com/example.html more of it some text in a different color.
16:36:32 <ais523> all appears white to me
16:36:32 <ais523> what is it about `relcome
16:36:32 <HackEgo> test: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:36:32 <ais523> yeah, `relcome pretty consistently colors everything after the link
16:36:32 <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!abcdef http://example.com. ghi
16:36:32 <fungot> abcdef http://example.com. ghi
16:36:32 <fizzie> `run echo Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. | colorize
16:36:34 <HackEgo> Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fug
16:36:39 <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!abcdef http://exam%C2ple.com. ghi
16:36:40 <fungot> abcdef http://exam%C2ple.com. ghi
16:36:45 <fizzie> Well, that's not right at all. That was all in one color.
16:36:46 <ais523> fizzie: no color in anything but `relcome yet
16:37:00 <HackEgo> bin/colorize \ bin/forget \ bin/fortune \ bin/frink \ bin/interp \ bin/joustreport \ bin/jousturl \ bin/karma \ bin/karma- \ bin/karma+ \ bin/learn \ bin/logurl \ bin/luarocks \ bin/luarocks-admin \ bin/macro \ bin/marco \ bin/oerjan \ bin/ord \ bin/pastefortunes \ bin/pastekarma \ bin/prefixes \ bin/quoerjan \ bin/quørjan \ bin/r13 \ bin/rainword
16:37:09 <shachaf> bin/colorize has colour too.
16:37:22 <fizzie> `run echo foobarbazquux | colorize
16:37:40 <fizzie> Oh, I guess the lorem ipsum was just too long.
16:37:48 <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!test: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
16:37:49 <fungot> test: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoter ...
16:38:03 <fizzie> `run echo Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco. | colorize
16:38:05 <HackEgo> Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco.
16:38:12 <ais523> fizzie: that apeared colored for me
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16:38:17 <fizzie> That should be essentially equivalent to relcome.
16:38:21 <ais523> cyan from the full stop onwards
16:38:34 <ais523> where does the cyan start to your view?
16:38:42 <shachaf> I guess I didn't say anything y'all didn't know.
16:38:52 <fizzie> ais523: At the "ge." of "Main_Page."
16:39:10 <ais523> so it's inside the link
16:39:21 <fizzie> ais523: It's the color the end of the link is in.
16:39:31 <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!http://exam%C1ple.com. test
16:39:31 <fungot> http://exam%C1ple.com. test
16:39:34 <elliott> `run mv bin/colorize bin/colorise
16:39:44 <HackEgo> TERM=linux \ http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128 \ HACKENV=/hackenv \ PATH=/hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin \ PWD=/hackenv \ LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ SHLVL=0 \ HOME=/tmp
16:39:48 <elliott> `run mv bin/colorize bin/colorise
16:39:57 <fizzie> `run echo Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna http://example.com/different_link.html how about it? Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco. | colorize
16:39:58 <elliott> `run mv bin/colorize bin/colourise
16:39:59 <HackEgo> Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna http://example.com/different_link.html how about it? Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco.
16:40:03 <HackEgo> ln: accessing `bin/colorise': No such file or directory
16:40:04 <ais523> elliott: how do you know "colorise" is correct in NZ english?
16:40:08 <HackEgo> ln: accessing `bin/colorise': No such file or directory
16:40:22 <coppro> ais523: http://google.ca/
16:40:23 <ais523> shachaf: don't use the bot so fast
16:40:25 <coppro> ais523: http://google.ca/ foo bar baz
16:40:30 <ais523> coppro: second appears orange
16:40:35 <coppro> ais523: yep, that's the bug then
16:40:41 <ais523> coppro: can you tell me what your input was?
16:41:02 <shachaf> `run ln bin/colorize bin/colorise bin/colourize bin/colourise
16:41:03 <HackEgo> ln: target `bin/colourise' is not a directory
16:41:06 <elliott> Where there is a difference between British and US spelling (such as cancelling/canceling and travelled/traveled), the British spelling is almost universally used. With "-our" words like colour/color or behaviour/behavior the spelling of "-our" is always used.[36] One common exception to this rule is fulfill, where New Zealand favours the US usage fulfill over the British fulfil.
16:41:09 <fizzie> ais523: There's just a color-change at the "ca" of the link.
16:41:12 <elliott> In words that may be spelled with either an -ise or an -ize suffix (such as organise/organize) New Zealand English, like Australian English, mainly prefers -ise. This contrasts with American English, where -ize is generally preferred, and British English, where -ise is more frequent but -ize is preferred by some (the Oxford spelling).[37] In New Zealand it is not wrong to use either.
16:41:15 <coppro> ais523: ^C7 just after the period
16:41:18 <shachaf> `run for f in bin/colorise bin/colourize bin/colourise; do ln bin/colorize $f; done
16:41:18 <elliott> `run mv bin/colorize bin/colourise
16:41:20 <elliott> so that's the right spelling for hackego standard en_NZ
16:41:24 <HackEgo> ln: accessing `bin/colorize': No such file or directory \ ln: accessing `bin/colorize': No such file or directory \ ln: accessing `bin/colorize': No such file or directory
16:41:32 <shachaf> `run for f in bin/colorise bin/colourize bin/colourise; do ln bin/colorize $f; done
16:41:38 <ais523> coppro: my theory is so that people will ask "why en_NZ"?
16:41:44 <coppro> ais523: I'm hoping that's the answer
16:41:51 <ais523> I think pretty much every channel regular (apart from the one responsible) has asked that at some point
16:42:06 <elliott> shachaf: that still leaves the original at the incorrect location for en_NZ...
16:42:10 -!- lmt has joined.
16:42:12 <elliott> also I don't think hg does links properly
16:42:13 <ais523> elliott: it's ln, not ln -s
16:42:19 <shachaf> elliott: That's a hard link.
16:42:20 <elliott> `run mv bin/colorize bin/colourise
16:42:26 <elliott> well those are a pain to maintain
16:42:27 <ais523> but yeah, I'm not sure ln understands hardlinks
16:42:28 <shachaf> `run for f in bin/colorise bin/colourize bin/colourise; do ln bin/colorize $f; done
16:42:30 <HackEgo> ln: creating hard link `bin/colorise': File exists \ ln: creating hard link `bin/colourize': File exists \ ln: creating hard link `bin/colourise': File exists
16:42:32 <elliott> e.g. plenty of things don't maintain them across edits
16:42:43 <ais523> elliott: Emacs has customizable behaviour for that
16:42:44 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `/bin/ls --help' for more information. \ /bin/ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `/bin/ls --help' for more information.
16:42:48 <shachaf> We'll have to find out how hg does it, won't we.
16:42:49 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 271 Mar 19 16:42 bin/colourise
16:42:50 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 271 Mar 19 16:42 bin/colourize
16:42:58 <elliott> pretty sure that's taking extra space on the disk
16:42:58 <ais523> which is useful when editing a file which you own, but aren't a member of the group that the file belongs to
16:42:59 <coppro> ais523: why wouldn't ln understand hardlinks
16:43:03 <elliott> anyway are you just trying to waste time
16:43:03 <HackEgo> 735316 -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 271 Mar 19 16:42 bin/colorise \ 737653 -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 271 Mar 19 16:42 bin/colorize \ 735415 -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 271 Mar 19 16:42 bin/colourise \ 737132 -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 271 Mar 19 16:42 bin/colourize
16:43:12 <elliott> since it seems pointless to clutter up bin with a bunch of names for the same thing
16:43:13 <ais523> coppro: typo, I meant I wasn't sure hg understood hardlinks
16:43:17 <elliott> especially if it's easy for them to get out of sync
16:43:21 <shachaf> I don't think I'm the one trying to waste time. You're ruining what was a perfectly working system.
16:43:21 <ais523> anyway those files all have a link count of 1
16:43:25 <elliott> (because lots of stuff is inconsistent about whether it maintains hrad links or not)
16:43:30 <ais523> shachaf: so basically, it doesn't work
16:43:31 <elliott> so they will inevitably get out of sync for no reason
16:43:37 <ais523> because hackego doesn't support hardlinks
16:43:47 <shachaf> Fine, let's make them symlinks.
16:43:49 <elliott> perhaps having shell scripts that exec the colourise name would be reasonable, though it seems pointless, but this isn't workable
16:43:55 <elliott> `run mv bin/colorize bin/colourise
16:43:56 <HackEgo> mv: cannot stat `bin/colorize': No such file or directory
16:44:09 <HackEgo> bin/colorise \ bin/colourise \ bin/colourize
16:44:10 <ais523> clearly we need a cronjob that randomly renames them now and again
16:44:14 <elliott> `run mv bin/colorize bin/colourise
16:44:18 -!- Lymia has joined.
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16:44:18 -!- Lymia has joined.
16:44:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `run: not found
16:44:34 <ais523> I wonder if putting things in the crontab would actually have an effect
16:45:05 <shachaf> `run mv bin/colourise bin/colo; for f in colorize colourize colorise colourise; do ln -s colo bin/$f; done
16:45:20 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: ( definitely impossible) analysis to figure out how to operate on characters' ascii values in scheme48, use non-blocking i/ o
16:45:32 <elliott> bin is already way too big
16:45:36 <elliott> not sure why you care about this
16:45:42 <HackEgo> bin/relcome:welcome "$@" | colorize
16:45:48 <elliott> `run sed -i 's/colorize/colourise' bin/relcome
16:45:50 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 20: unterminated `s' command
16:45:52 <elliott> `run sed -i 's/colorize/colourise/' bin/relcome
16:45:55 <ais523> personally I'd get rid of all the stupid welcome variants
16:45:59 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | colourise
16:46:00 <ais523> even if relcome exposed a bug
16:46:06 <elliott> god's in his heaven, all's right with the world
16:46:11 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: i came to it but mostly ignored its output into js, or are you just referring to people dying and getting " buggy" though
16:46:11 <shachaf> elliott: You're the one messing up a perfectly working thing.
16:46:13 <HackEgo> fungot: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:46:27 <elliott> i don't see anything messed up at all?
16:46:27 <shachaf> `run mv bin/{colourise,rainbow}
16:46:32 <elliott> except ais523's colour filter
16:46:45 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/colurise/rainbow/g' bin/relcome
16:46:52 <elliott> i see you trying to waste a lot of time passive-aggressively because you apparently object to what i'm doing for no apparent reason, though
16:47:00 <elliott> which is kind of a pattern here
16:47:15 <shachaf> I am trying every compromise I can think of to your silly spelling.
16:47:28 <shachaf> colorize was a perfectly working script.
16:47:37 <shachaf> You didn't write it; you don't really get to name it.
16:47:46 <elliott> perhaps you should petition Gregor to change HackEgo's language setting or something equally pointless or omething
16:47:52 <elliott> never seen a bigger molehill mountain
16:48:07 <shachaf> HackEgo's language setting has no bearing on spelling of script names.
16:48:15 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: cannot access /usr/bin/*colour*: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access /usr/bin/*colour*: No such file or directory
16:48:58 -!- carado has joined.
16:48:58 <Gregor> Man, "colourise" is a fabulous word. Two cross-Atlantic spelling disagreements in one word!
16:49:30 <kmc> elliott is 17 going on 18
16:49:41 <shachaf> Gregor: I'll disagree with Canadians, thank you very much.
16:50:15 <ThatOtherPerson> "In the early 18th century, English spelling was not standardized. Differences became noticeable after the publishing of influential dictionaries. Today's British English spellings follow, for the most part, those of Samuel Johnson's A Dictionary of the English Language (1755), whereas many American English spellings follow Noah Webster's An American Dictionary of the English Language (1828).[1
16:50:21 <lambdabot> monochrom says: I am 17-ary, going on 18-ary, I can take curry of you
16:51:56 -!- Taneb has joined.
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17:02:47 <ais523> coppro: bug filed (https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=317034), thanks for helping me to debug
17:09:31 <HackEgo> essakki: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:10:21 <Taneb> I don't see how this is relevant to our interaction
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17:10:40 -!- metasepia has joined.
17:10:47 <metasepia> CYUL 191700Z 09009KT 5/8SM R06L/3500FT/N R06R/3000V5000FT/U -SN DRSN VV005 M01/M02 A2983 RMK SN8 /S12/ SLP102
17:11:38 <ais523> essakki: do you understand what this channel is for?
17:12:11 <ais523> admittedly, out of the channels that people stumble into by mistake, this one is quite low down the list
17:12:22 <shachaf> ais523: What *is* this channel for?
17:12:49 <ais523> shachaf: it's a community of people who originally started talking to each other because they were interested in esoteric programming languages
17:13:12 <ais523> and mostly still are, although it turned out that there were a bunch of other moderately common interests too
17:13:29 <ais523> so it's a channel for topics that interest esoteric programmers
17:14:08 <shachaf> Is it the languages or the programmers which are esoteric?
17:14:25 <Taneb> Mindset in general, I think, shachaf
17:14:43 <Taneb> Seeing as we have at least one IOCCC winner in the channel, I'd lean to the latter
17:16:05 <Taneb> Once again, not particularly relevant
17:16:25 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523.
17:16:37 * boily grabs pockys and watch
17:16:52 <elliott> boily: what's the watch for?
17:16:56 <ais523> Taneb: fwiw, "where are you from?" or the like, if it doesn't have an obvious reason for being asked in context, is pretty much a very clear indicator of a subset of people who turn up to channels with no idea what they're about and never do anything useful
17:17:04 <essakki> bye me want to quit this for my tmrw job
17:17:14 <ais523> I'm not sure why, but this pattern is so far 100% consistent IME; it's probably less consistent than that in practice and I've just been lucky
17:17:45 <Taneb> ais523, I know, I just don't really know how to react
17:17:55 -!- ais523 has kicked essakki in the wrong channel, and hasn't given us enough information to direct us to the right one.
17:17:58 <boily> elliott: it happens that I have the same watch model with random people. I think it's a sign that my qi is particularly aligned today.
17:18:06 <ais523> Taneb: that's the usual reaction
17:18:10 <elliott> boily: is it a mustard watch?
17:18:19 <ais523> fun fact: I originally typoed the nick as "elliott" due to a tab-complete mistake, and had to correct it
17:18:27 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -o ais523.
17:18:31 <boily> elliott: no, I prefer sriracha.
17:18:38 <elliott> ais523: i'm ok with being kicked
17:18:44 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
17:18:54 <elliott> otherwise my channel numbering scheme is messed up
17:19:15 <ais523> elliott: yeah but I dislike kicking people for fun
17:19:17 <Vorpal> elliott, hey, I remember you quit for a few months a while ago
17:19:17 <boily> (sorry, that was an easy one.)
17:19:23 <Vorpal> I never asked you what made you come back
17:19:34 <ais523> boily: yeah, the "if it doesn't have an obvious reason for being asked in context" was directed at that and one other situation
17:20:04 <elliott> Vorpal: probably everything was terrible
17:20:11 <elliott> and then I forgot it was terrible
17:20:18 <ais523> ThatOtherPerson: trolls would be less consistent in their pattern
17:20:24 <ais523> I'm not quite sure what causes the pattern
17:20:26 <Taneb> I sometimes go on, eg, Omegle, and pretend to have no idea what people mean by "m/f" et al
17:20:37 <elliott> ais523 actually tempted to me to ask where someone is from out of context sometime
17:20:43 <elliott> since it doesn't seem that weird a thing to ask
17:20:46 <ais523> but they turn up to a channel, often pick on individual members of it who look active, ask for a bunch of personal information for no reason, and do nothing else
17:20:55 <Vorpal> Taneb, what is omegle?
17:21:04 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: actually the first time I went on Omegle I actually didn't know
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17:21:20 <Taneb> Vorpal, it's a website that puts you in an anonymous IM conversation with a random other person
17:21:24 <ThatOtherPerson> Vorpal: a really stupid chatting site where it connects you to a random stranger
17:21:34 <Vorpal> not sure why I would ever want that
17:21:40 <ThatOtherPerson> The site is less stupid than most of the people who lurk around it
17:21:51 <ais523> ThatOtherPerson: same idea as chatroulette?
17:21:57 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, that doesn't bode well
17:22:10 <ais523> btw, I have it on moderately good authority that chatroulette was actually interesting once
17:22:11 <Taneb> You can specify tags and it tries to connect you to people with the same tags
17:22:14 <Fiora> I like the Homestuck variant of the site where you can pick a character to RP and be randomly matched with another person
17:22:15 <ais523> before it became famous
17:23:38 <Taneb> Fiora, some of my friends RP on that occasionally
17:23:45 <Fiora> Taneb: the 'm/f' thing reminds me of some wonderful instances of gender confusion too
17:23:55 <Fiora> in another channel there was once a thing where some random newbie joined
17:24:12 <Fiora> and two friends of mine were there (boyfriend and girlfriend) but the guy thought they were both female
17:24:15 <Fiora> so they went with it
17:24:18 <Fiora> and pretended to be lesbians
17:24:21 <Fiora> and it was the funniest thing
17:24:26 <shachaf> elliott: Your irssi window doesn't have to close when you leave a channel.
17:24:33 <Taneb> Did the truth ever emerge?
17:24:44 <Fiora> I don't think the guy figured it out (he left later, didn't come back, just some random person)
17:24:56 <Fiora> I think he was using the 'nick ends with a == female' heuristic
17:25:20 <ais523> Fiora: convincing people on random forums that I'm female without making any statements that pertain to one gender or the other is something I do on occasion
17:25:25 <Arc_Koen> Fiora: I actually had a guy ask me out on a date repeatedly
17:25:30 <Arc_Koen> because he thought I was a female
17:25:45 <ais523> acting very defensive when the question of gender comes up is the usual way
17:25:50 <ais523> (this only works due to people's default gender assumptions)
17:25:50 <Arc_Koen> funny thing is, I tried to break it several times
17:26:02 <ais523> Arc_Koen: online, or real life?
17:26:14 <ais523> online it'd be awkward because all the nicks I've seen you use have military ranks in them
17:26:16 <Arc_Koen> are you implying I might look like a girl
17:26:24 <ais523> and military causes people to assume male because of the way the balance works
17:26:32 <ais523> in real life, most soldiers are male
17:26:33 <shachaf> People used to mistake me for female all the time both online and off.
17:26:45 <shachaf> Nowadays it only happens online.
17:26:46 <ais523> and I have no idea what you look like, and am not really sure it matters
17:27:37 <ais523> well it does in that context I guess
17:27:49 <boily> in my mind, I picture shachaf as an impish imp.
17:28:04 <ais523> I don't normally mentally picture people at all
17:28:19 <shachaf> I am unable to mentally picture people.
17:28:21 <ais523> although I just decided to mentally picture elliott as looking like Michael Jordan, because it's amusingly incongruous
17:29:10 <Arc_Koen> I usually picture people as a few ascii chars
17:29:28 -!- Lymia has joined.
17:29:30 <Arc_Koen> it works pretty well most of the time but then sometimes THEY CHANGE NICKS and I get confused
17:29:40 -!- Taneb has changed nick to atriq.
17:29:46 <shachaf> Taneb...................................
17:29:48 -!- Lymia has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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17:30:03 <Arc_Koen> also when guys have girlish nicks or girls have boyish names it gets weird
17:30:14 -!- boily has changed nick to girlish.
17:30:17 <Fiora> it's hard to tell the difference between white nerd dudes, they all look the same :p
17:30:28 <ais523> Fiora: I disagree, I think
17:30:38 <ais523> it doesn't take long to learn how to tell them apart
17:30:44 <Arc_Koen> Phantom_Hoover: I used to do that but my new client colours everyone in yellow
17:30:52 <girlish> I'm white, I'm definitely a nerd, I'll have to check for the dude part.
17:30:54 <Fiora> I guess they have some bits of entropy?
17:30:59 <ais523> (also quite a few people in this channel know what I actually look like)
17:31:03 <coppro> kmc: remember our discussion about compatibility in Windows?
17:31:07 <coppro> I have one word for you
17:31:14 <Fiora> and like, whether they are "really tall" or "really really really tall"
17:31:16 <Phantom_Hoover> istr reading that the reason for the whole 'all x look the same' thing is that you train your face recognition when you're young
17:31:20 <ais523> coppro: we need a Windows dating service
17:31:30 <Phantom_Hoover> otoh i also str reading this in a jared diamond book, so...
17:31:44 <shachaf> kmc: Hey, you should name a band that.
17:31:45 <coppro> C:¥Program Files₩My Application\Foo
17:31:47 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not convinced, it doesn't take me long to determine how to distinguish people in a culture I'm unfamiliar with, if I want to
17:32:26 <Vorpal> <coppro> C:¥Program Files₩My Application\Foo <-- the fuck happened?
17:32:32 * Fiora is mostly kidding on the "can't distinguish part", she's probably not much worse (?) than your average autistic mes
17:32:33 -!- girlish has changed nick to boily.
17:32:35 <ais523> also I get confused between British people frequently, despite having grown up with them
17:32:36 <Phantom_Hoover> they showed babies picture of general primates and they were about as good at distinguishing monkeys as humans
17:32:58 <shachaf> I can't distinguish elliott and conal
17:32:59 <Phantom_Hoover> and over time they got worse at monkeys, and better at humans, and then it specialised to race
17:33:10 <ais523> is elliottt someone else?
17:33:19 <ais523> also, ec is noticeably different from elliott
17:33:31 <ais523> I haven't talked to conal enough to know how similar to elliott he/she is, though
17:33:43 <Arc_Koen> Phantom_Hoover: so they trained newborns to recognize monkeys
17:33:53 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:34:09 <Phantom_Hoover> they had them live among the monkeys and learn their ways
17:34:29 <coppro> Vorpal: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/michkap/archive/2005/09/17/469941.aspx
17:34:49 <Vorpal> ais523, I think this might be a thing that varies on individual level quite a bit. I.e. I have a terrible memory wrt. connecting face and name. I can manage names of people I haven't seen just fine. And I can remember faces. I just have a hard time learning the connection.
17:35:24 <Vorpal> coppro, thing is, neither of those previous chars looked like backslash to me.
17:35:25 <ais523> IIRC, quite a bit of apparently weird behaviour by dogs can be explained via assuming that the dogs are assuming that human societal structures work the same way as canine societal structures
17:35:27 <Phantom_Hoover> most of the rest of the details are classified, but radiation levels in the congo have been elevated ever since
17:35:30 <Vorpal> coppro, sure you use UTF-8?
17:35:30 <shachaf> I can't really remember names until I know the spelling.
17:35:45 <ais523> Vorpal: it's rather similar for me; however, in teaching, you have to memorise a lot of people
17:35:53 <Arc_Koen> shachaf: I usually invent a spelling
17:35:55 <Vorpal> ais523, that I would utterly fail at
17:36:09 <ais523> this year I was a bit lazy in that, actually; it didn't hurt too much
17:36:21 <ais523> knowing which students are yours and which aren't is more important than being able to distinguish them from each other, though
17:36:26 <ais523> because you can always ask them who they are
17:37:16 <Arc_Koen> he when I was in prepschool my english teacher kept looking at me for one or two months
17:37:18 <ais523> btw, is it weird to mentally translate the names of fictional characters between languages?
17:37:24 <ais523> as in, they have a different name in different translations of the same canon
17:37:30 <Arc_Koen> he never asked me my name or any class-related question
17:37:40 <Arc_Koen> I think we developed a pretty cool look-only relationship
17:38:04 <ais523> and you hear one of the names and translate it to the other mentally to understand better
17:38:20 <ais523> (especially if it happens equally often in each direction)
17:38:41 <ThatOtherPerson> One of my teachers has the tendency to accidentally reassign names
17:38:55 <ThatOtherPerson> For example, he started calling me George for a couple of weeks once
17:39:35 <ais523> the most extreme technique involves arbitrarily assigning a name to each of your students, then only using that name
17:39:51 <Arc_Koen> and then one day you tell him your actual name, and he says "really? you look a lot like george"
17:39:54 -!- atriq has changed nick to Taneb.
17:40:39 <HackEgo> back: Taneb: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:41:31 <HackEgo> A: B: C: D: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:42:35 <Arc_Koen> ?mih ees uoy ,rorrim a ni kool uoy nehw hguoht
17:42:37 <Taneb> Re: telling people apart, I find it very hard to tell people apart if I meet them around the same time and haven't interacted uch with them
17:43:51 <Arc_Koen> (btw is the boardgamegeek down or something?)
17:44:29 <ThatOtherPerson> I feel rather awkward when people come up to me and say, "Hey David, how are you doing?" and I can't remember ever seeing them before in my entire life
17:45:03 <Taneb> A few weeks ago, someone came up to me and said "Hey, Nathan! Hi-five!"
17:45:14 <Taneb> Never figured out who he was
17:45:19 <Arc_Koen> when that happens I usually know that I know them, I just can't tell from where
17:45:39 <Arc_Koen> soooo keep stalling the conversation until I can figure it out
17:45:54 <elliott> Taneb: that was obviously me
17:46:06 <ais523> Taneb: are you actually called Nathan?
17:46:10 <ais523> I guess the story works both ways
17:46:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i have been approached by multiple people to talk about the way i climb stairs
17:46:31 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, how do you climb stairs
17:46:31 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: is it particularly unusual?
17:46:42 <Arc_Koen> Taneb: sometimes don't you feel sad that your name came so close from being a palydrome, but missed by one letter?
17:46:56 <ais523> admittedly, the method I got used to of descending a flight of stairs without using any of the individual stairs was a little unusual
17:47:25 <Taneb> I think it's a palindrome in the original Hebrew
17:47:40 <ais523> well Hebrew doesn't write vowels, and th is presumably one letter
17:47:50 <ais523> so it'd transliterate most accurately as nþn, which is a palindrom
17:48:22 <shachaf> ais523: Hebrew uses a different n at the end of a word.
17:48:25 <Arc_Koen> yeah but then wouldn't you feel sad that the name came so close to being stable though 180° rotation
17:48:26 <shachaf> I don't know if you count that.
17:48:33 <ais523> I don't know if I count that either
17:48:39 <ais523> I guess handwritten English uses a different s
17:48:46 <ais523> and yet words can still be considered palindromes if they end and start with s
17:48:50 <ais523> so I guess I don't count it
17:49:14 <shachaf> This is actually a different letter as in a different codepoint/keyboard key/etc.
17:49:44 <ais523> well it is in Greek too
17:50:02 <ais523> ThatOtherPerson: actually, it's not at the end of the world
17:50:12 <ais523> but after a point where you have to break the writing (like "g", except if you're French)
17:50:30 <ais523> the top of the s curls round to the bottom left if it's joining to something on the left
17:50:42 <Arc_Koen> I think the only letter we write differently in french depending on its position is n
17:50:47 <ais523> in France, it's usual (even when writing English) to connect the s to the previous letter regardless of anything
17:50:57 <elliott> nothing is usual in france
17:51:05 <Arc_Koen> yes, in france we connect everything
17:51:14 <ais523> you can't do it for the first letter of a word, though, I guess
17:51:35 <Arc_Koen> if in the first position it looks more like a script n
17:51:36 <ais523> Arc_Koen: what context does n change in?
17:51:58 <ais523> ThatOtherPerson: I once went several months in a row without writing anything
17:52:09 <ais523> I use computers so much more than pencil/paper
17:52:17 <Arc_Koen> if it's in the middle or end of a word the thingy goes down to the left so it looks like two bridges instead of just the one
17:52:18 <Taneb> But yeah, in Hebrew Nathan is Nun-Tav-Nun?
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17:53:34 <Taneb> Arc_Koen, I'm giving the names of the letters
17:54:01 <Arc_Koen> Taneb, I'm giving a joke (you can find the name of that joke yourself)
17:55:22 <ThatOtherPerson> According to Google Translate, "David" is a palindrome in Hebrew
17:55:40 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, the wikipedia page for "Nathan (given name)" on Wikipedia has a picture of Nathan talking to David
17:55:46 <Taneb> Obviously we were meant for eachother
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17:56:47 <shachaf> ThatOtherPerson: Now try "uncle" and "water heater".
17:57:09 <ais523> shachaf: you can't do that, it's illegal!
17:58:16 * boily points to himself ←
17:58:19 <shachaf> (These are pronounced "dod" and "dud" respectively.)
17:58:29 <shachaf> (That's "dud" as in "dude" but short. Not as in a dud.)
17:59:11 <Taneb> We had a sort of drizzle
17:59:19 <Vorpal> I seem to remember you complain about snow a few weeks ago :P
17:59:23 <ais523> Vorpal: you live in Scandinavia
17:59:28 <ThatOtherPerson> I don't think it's snowed where I am for several hundred years
17:59:32 <ais523> there was sleet in Birmingham a couple of days ago
17:59:42 <Vorpal> ais523, well the spring is rather late this year
17:59:58 <Taneb> We're in about the fifth spring of the year
18:00:04 <Taneb> It's getting ridiculous
18:00:07 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, approx where is that?
18:01:13 <Vorpal> yeah I don't think it snowed there any time recently
18:01:15 <metasepia> OEDF 191700Z 34008KT CAVOK 19/10 Q1012 NOSIG
18:01:32 <ais523> oh hmm, metasepia is somehow connected with radio
18:01:40 <metasepia> ESOE 191750Z 06018KT 9999 FEW021 BKN026 M05/M10 Q1014 RESN
18:01:47 <ais523> this makes it very slightly less mysterious
18:01:55 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Quitte).
18:02:10 <ais523> I could ask what it does, but that would feel like a copout
18:02:24 <boily> I like my bot mysterious.
18:02:29 <Vorpal> boily, wait, OEDF has the temperature in farenheit doesn't it? My metar is rusty
18:02:59 <metasepia> NZSP 191750Z 15012KT 4800 IC BR BKN010 OVC050 M50/ A2824 RMK CLN AIR 14009KT ALL WNDS GRID
18:03:04 <Taneb> I assume OEDF stands for "Oxford English Dictionary: French edition"
18:03:14 <boily> Vorpal: it wouldn't make no sense. everything is SI, except for north american metars, where there are some customary units mixed in.
18:03:25 <Vorpal> boily, if you know what "ALL WNDS GRID" means I would really like to know
18:03:29 <boily> Taneb: OEDF is king fahd airport, at damam.
18:03:33 <Vorpal> boily, oh right, M was minus
18:03:55 <Vorpal> boily, I suspect it means they use a different coordinate system, since NZSP is the south pole
18:04:03 <Taneb> Did you ever add a IATA to ICAO converter, boily?@
18:04:21 <Vorpal> boily, and thus long/lat, as well as compass directions get a bit wonky
18:04:52 <boily> Taneb: no, not yet. besides, another checklist item should be to have an official metasepia suggestion checklist.
18:04:56 <Vorpal> Taneb, does anyone use anything except ICAO?
18:05:00 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: some regions of some countries take preserving their language very seriously
18:05:40 <Vorpal> Taneb, I mean for weather. Obviously IATA is used for luggage or whatever
18:05:42 -!- tos9 has left.
18:05:47 <boily> we have the OQLF, which is the same thing.
18:06:36 <ais523> incidentally, the region Microsoft asks for "country or region" when signing up
18:06:43 <Vorpal> boily, I like the M50/ temperature of NZSP.
18:06:47 <Taneb> Vorpal, my dad works in the air industry and keeps using IATA codes so I learn them easuer
18:06:48 <Vorpal> it makes me happy I'm elsewhere
18:06:49 <ais523> is in order to avoid implying anything about border disputes (which annoys several countries)
18:06:49 <Phantom_Hoover> is it just me or are the french really bitter that english is the lingua franca now
18:07:12 <ais523> e.g. it avoids offending Taiwan, whilst also avoiding offending the mainland Chinese government by implying that Taiwan is a country
18:07:47 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I think it's just that the french and the english have got on with eachother for a grand total of maybe 4 years in the last 1000
18:07:51 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
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18:08:04 <lmt> the french are really better any time there's any suggestion that they are not the greatest ever
18:08:10 <lmt> really bitter
18:08:25 <ais523> Taneb: the french and english are on decent terms atm
18:08:39 <ais523> also they were on pretty good terms during the world wars
18:08:45 <Phantom_Hoover> i think it's a testament to how awful the english are that scotland was able to find common ground with france over them
18:08:48 <Taneb> ais523, BUT HOW LONG WILL IT LAST
18:08:50 <ais523> but yes, lots of fighting further into history
18:09:11 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: to be fair, it's reasonable for scotland to consider england to be awful
18:09:13 <ais523> we used to invade repeatedly
18:09:19 <ais523> even when we had no realistic chance of winning
18:09:28 <ais523> because… actually I don't know why
18:10:04 <Taneb> ais523, they set fire to the church in Hexham
18:10:17 <ais523> Taneb: who, the english or scots or both?
18:10:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, is this because it's an english church or just because it's a church
18:11:34 <Taneb> The first time it was the Danes
18:12:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, considering the horrible deeds committed in the names of the church through the history, and how boring the English church is supposed to be, I would say both
18:12:32 <Taneb> Ah, I live in a country that's never been conquered, if you ignore the four or so times it was conquered
18:12:34 <ais523> Vorpal: that's a weird correlation, really
18:12:44 <Phantom_Hoover> so the church is terrible because they do all sorts of fascinatingly awful thing
18:12:51 <ais523> the anglican church is inded reasonably boring
18:12:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, WHILE BEING BORING!
18:13:03 <Phantom_Hoover> and it's terrible because they're renowned for being meek to a fault
18:13:07 <ais523> and as a result is quite low on the scale of spectacular religious misdeeds
18:13:17 <ais523> yeah, Phantom_Hoover is commenting on the same thing as me
18:13:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes. totally logical
18:13:28 <boily> our church is so boring that when the state really separated itself from the church, it was called «révolution tranquille».
18:13:32 <Lymia> I'm going to attempt a bfjoust evolver one more time, this time, trying something that'll hopefully make it not suck.
18:13:51 <Vorpal> anyway isn't the "boring anglican church" relatively modern
18:13:59 <Vorpal> as in, the past few hundred years or so
18:14:18 <Phantom_Hoover> they settled down once they finished persecuting the catholics
18:14:19 <Lymia> ais523, the main difference is that I'm going to be trying to basically evolve a code generator, rather than the code itself. It might work better?
18:14:22 <ais523> there was certainly a lot of religious strife between catholics and protestants during Tudor times
18:14:25 <Lymia> I don't have the mutation itertation coded yet.
18:14:34 <ais523> this lead to a law in the UK, which still stands, which prevents Catholics becoming monarchs
18:14:47 <ais523> recently the EU told us to get rid of it because it was religious discrimination, or something
18:14:49 <Phantom_Hoover> (meanwhile the mainland catholic church became crazy polarised, presumably due to evaporative cooling)
18:14:58 <ais523> Lymia: seems interesting
18:16:08 <Taneb> ais523, I don't remember seeing that on the front page of the Express
18:16:19 <ais523> Taneb: do you read the Express every day?
18:16:25 <Taneb> Just the front page
18:16:55 <coppro> elliott: you know haskell help me
18:17:19 <coppro> elliott: why does the expression problem suck
18:17:26 <Taneb> I read the front pages of a lot of newspapers
18:17:54 <coppro> elliott: specifically, why is it hard to say I have a class Foo, and refine it to class Bar, but then if I have a Foo I can't reasonably tell if it's a Bar
18:18:43 <coppro> a type that is an instance of Foo
18:18:44 <elliott> that's not really anything to do with the expression problem IMO (and the expression problem is more an expression of inherent constraints -- coding behaviour vs. coding data -- than something you can solve)... on a technical level it would violate parametricity
18:18:51 <elliott> but in general I'm sceptical of typeclass hierarchies like that
18:19:01 <shachaf> What is "refine"? A subclass?
18:19:02 <Gregor> <ais523> this lead to a law in the UK, which still stands, which prevents Catholics becoming monarchs // aren't there much BIGGER obstacles X-D
18:19:03 <coppro> elliott: what would you generally propose instead?
18:19:18 <ais523> Gregor: well it's not always trivial to work out
18:19:26 <ais523> some time after tony blair resigned
18:19:30 <ais523> it became public that he was catholic
18:19:37 <ais523> and the press were gloating over this for no apparent reason
18:19:40 <coppro> ais523: didn't he convert?
18:19:45 <Taneb> I thought he converted, yeah
18:20:05 <ais523> coppro: also how do you know this stuff, you aren't even british
18:20:18 <coppro> ais523: I follow foreign news occasionally
18:20:33 <elliott> coppro: well, that type of design is something I associate more with OOP type stuff (although even then instanceof type things tend to be discouraged), so it really depends on the probelm, there's no generic mapping of designs... I usually start with modelling my problem with plain old data (sometimes this data is a record of behaviour: functions, monadic actions etc.) before going to typeclasses
18:21:38 <coppro> I'm trying to model some parliamentary procedure, and I think a typeclass for motions is most appropriate because it's extensible. But then subclasses become awkward, for instance, the motion to amend.
18:21:43 <Lymia> Population generation, check.
18:21:45 <Lymia> Evaluation, check.
18:21:52 <Lymia> Now for the "fun" part v.v;
18:22:09 <elliott> coppro: a typeclass in no more or less extensible than data, in general
18:22:18 <elliott> @where existential-typeclass-antipattern
18:22:18 <lambdabot> I know nothing about existential-typeclass-antipattern.
18:22:23 <lambdabot> http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2010/01/24/haskell-antipattern-existential-typeclass/
18:22:31 <shachaf> @where existential-antipattern
18:22:31 <lambdabot> "Haskell Antipattern: Existential Typeclass" by Luke Palmer at <http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2010/01/24/haskell-antipattern-existential-typeclass/>
18:22:38 <elliott> also I think the FAQ talks about data representation along thesel ines
18:22:39 <lambdabot> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/FAQ
18:22:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ski-style': not found
18:22:43 <ais523> elliott: instead of instanceof, you can have an abstract getter method that returns what sort of class it is
18:22:45 <ais523> that doesn't break anything
18:23:16 <ais523> (in general, the answer to "how do I do dubious OO operation X without violating Y" is "use more abstract")
18:24:22 <coppro> elliott: that makes a lot of sense
18:24:41 <shachaf> I don't think existential so-and-so is as much of an antipattern as people claim.
18:24:45 <shachaf> But sometimes it's way misused.
18:24:49 <coppro> elliott: but the problem is still one of "I have fields which are not applicable to all versions of the type"
18:25:04 <coppro> and filling things up with undefineds seems poor
18:25:24 <ais523> coppro: huh, this is close to the problem Anarchy is intended to solve
18:25:35 <elliott> well, you can just use Maybe if it's "really" that simple. or perhaps better: another data type which contains (aggregation, in OOP terms) the subset that all satisfy, as well as the additional information
18:26:00 <ais523> incidentally, algol 68 has an undefined-like value
18:26:06 <ais523> except it's not guaranteed to throw an error
18:26:15 <ais523> it's just an arbitrary value of whatever type it's expected to be a value of
18:26:26 <coppro> ais523: the second is not useful. I'm unsure about Anarchy since I don't know what it is
18:26:49 <ais523> coppro: it's an unfinished esolang, which may be theoretically impossible
18:27:40 <coppro> elliott: yeah, I might go with a sub-data-type
18:27:42 <Taneb> I hope Feather compiles into it
18:27:44 <coppro> and just have it stored in a Maybe
18:27:54 <coppro> but it *does* raise the question of whether there is a typeclass equivalent
18:27:54 <elliott> that's inverse to what I was thinking
18:27:56 <Taneb> Or you could use a super-data type?
18:28:06 <elliott> instead of data S = S { ..., t :: Maybe T }, data T = ...
18:28:15 <elliott> data S = S { ... }, data T = T { s :: S, ... }
18:28:20 <coppro> elliott: oh, no, that doesn't work though
18:28:25 <coppro> because then I can't recover the T from the S
18:28:26 <elliott> then s projects out your S from your T
18:28:40 <elliott> yes, but generally you shouldn't want to... it's too situation-specific to really say though
18:28:52 <Taneb> You could with lenses
18:29:54 <Taneb> data S = S { ... }; data T = T { _s :: s, ...}; makeLenses ''T; thisT & s %~ modifyS
18:30:37 <coppro> Taneb: that doens't solve the homogenous container problem
18:31:02 <Taneb> Maybe may be the way to go
18:31:07 <elliott> there is no homogenous container problem. every heterogeneous container is a homogeneous container where the underlying interface is being hidden
18:31:21 <coppro> elliott: the problem is that the underlying heterogeneity needs to be preserved
18:34:05 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, it's not that scary, it just allows you to abuse the type system more so than any other language
18:34:05 <Taneb> Even more so if you enable some GHC extensions
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18:34:49 <ThatOtherPerson> but I would have to know Haskell to know what that even means
18:34:58 <Taneb> That would blur the line between esolang and research language
18:35:17 <ais523> Taneb: that's a great line to blur
18:35:30 <ais523> in fact, those are way better than esolangs designed to be useless
18:35:30 <elliott> ThatOtherPerson: that's just called Agda really
18:35:37 <ais523> oh, I forgot about Agda
18:35:43 <ais523> ThatOtherPerson: yeah, definitely check out Agda
18:35:59 <elliott> probably don't check out agda if haskell scares you.
18:36:03 <ais523> everyone deserves to be allowed to experience it at least one
18:36:08 <ais523> elliott: yeah but with agda it's OK to be scared
18:36:20 <shachaf> ais523: larrytheliquid went straight from Ruby to Agda!
18:36:28 <ais523> things like people, in practice, normally requiring their editor to do type inference
18:36:33 <ais523> in order to be able to write it
18:39:02 <ais523> elliott: btw, the tdwtf forums seem to have a new troll: http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/t/27342.aspx
18:39:10 <ais523> person who is out of place
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18:40:36 <Taneb> ais523, is he saying things like "m/f" and "what country r u"?
18:41:11 <ais523> if you're interested you can follow the link
18:41:32 <Taneb> It looks like fungot decided to visit the fora
18:41:32 <fungot> Taneb: er. they are independent just loop over them for each time the programmer writes in-range deep inside the kernel without messing up the mechanics."
18:42:17 <ais523> Taneb: it doesn't seem so markov chain to me
18:42:31 <ais523> they're trying to edit the credits for mozilla, the responsible person is ignoring them
18:42:38 <ais523> so they're asking how they can get the responsible person to stop ignoring them
18:43:32 <Taneb> I somehow got convinced the OP was joe.edwards
18:43:47 <ais523> huh, Humble Bundle are trying to sell me a game I already own, and that they know I already own because they sold it to me
18:44:00 <lmt> so buy it again
18:44:13 <lmt> past performance is the best predictor of future performance
18:49:07 <fizzie> Chrome version history table; "24 -- Support for MathML -- 25 -- Disabled MathML support for the time being". The Chrome gives, the Chrome takes away.
18:50:05 <fizzie> ais523: To be fair, they're also explaining the whole new weekly-deal scheme while they're doing it.
18:50:33 <ais523> if they're going to spam me every week, though, I'm going to unsubscribe
18:50:39 <ais523> and possibly miss other things they want to send me
18:51:33 <fizzie> I don't think they're going to do that. Or at the very least they'd perhaps make the "announce every weekly sale" mailing opt-out-or-in.
18:51:40 <boily> I hate electro-static discharges.
18:52:09 -!- Bike has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
18:52:10 <fizzie> They're also selling some merchandise you might not already own.
18:52:21 <ais523> yes but I'm not so interested in Bastion merchandise
18:52:37 <Taneb> The internal battery in my Pokemon Emerald has died
18:53:28 <ais523> Taneb: that's usual around now
18:53:39 <ais523> sadly, unlike in Ruby/Sapphire, it doesn't make it any easier to rig the RNG
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18:55:43 <boily> Taneb has died again, it seems.
18:56:10 -!- Bike has joined.
18:56:29 <fizzie> Speaking with things with counters, there's this Finnish version of the "We the People" petitions -- if a petition gets over 50k signatures, the parliament needs to... uh, at least officially look at it -- and they opened the petition for making the laws about marriage gender-neutral; it's gotten 91433 signatures in the 21 hours it's been open, which is probably several magnitudes faster than ...
18:56:35 <fizzie> ... all the other such petitions. (Thus far only one has ever gone over the 50k mark.)
18:57:02 <Lumpio-> It'll probably get deleted for cheating
18:57:43 <fizzie> It's run by the gummint and they do strong (FSVO strong) authentication, so hopefully it's not that likely to be spurious.
18:57:53 <ais523> fizzie: do you think it's been hacked? or just that it's a really major hot topic?
18:58:02 <elliott> there aren't 91,433 people in finland, though.
18:58:27 <Phantom_Hoover> the only one i remember was that all the rioters should be hanged, or perhaps just given some kind of jail sentence
18:58:50 <fizzie> ais523: I think it's legit, though the rate of new signatures has been curiously constant -- see the yellow line in http://ypcs.fi/tahdon2013/ -- but maybe there's a technical reason for that.
18:59:35 <boily> IIRC, but glued to the other sentence end.
18:59:55 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: A majority of the petitions on the Finnish site are pretty dumb too.
19:00:29 <Phantom_Hoover> the one with the most signatures is "stop the badger cull"
19:00:40 <Phantom_Hoover> the runner up is to keep all the bulgarians and romanians out
19:01:00 <fizzie> Also, http://kannatusilmoitukset.fi/ -- another graph-page only in Finnish -- plots the history of all of them, hourly; the almost-vertical blue line at the end is the marriage equality thing.
19:01:03 <elliott> iirc like 90% of the petitions were about arresting and/or hanging people and/or just generally being a little bit more 19th century if you please
19:01:14 <elliott> i don't know where 19 came from there
19:01:20 <elliott> let's just say the 19th century was the worst century
19:01:58 <fizzie> Many of the other petitions have also gotten small bumps during today, too, presumably because people, after bothering to verify themselves to the system, have gone and poked several.
19:02:57 <Phantom_Hoover> hmm, no, the rioters one is "Convicted London rioters should loose all benefits."
19:03:35 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: the worrying part is that the benefits system is so used to complexity that implementing that would probably cost less than it saves
19:03:43 -!- Lymia has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:04:06 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: no, less was intentional
19:04:10 <ais523> read the rest of the sentence
19:04:50 <Bike> are we going to draw and quarter someone
19:05:10 <ais523> however, it seems to me likely to be a bad idea to take a bunch of people who are already shown to be entirely willing to break the law and cause widespread property damage, and decide to cut off any legal means for them to obtain food and shelter
19:05:12 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-21846817 damn immigrants coming over here and sponging off our hospitals and schools
19:05:45 <kmc> Phantom_Daily_Mail
19:05:47 <ais523> at that point, they have no logical reason not to go on a widespread looting spree
19:05:51 <ais523> as an alternative to starving
19:05:54 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/aa4cdb56d9a1457f4f3d748cb85d1831/tumblr_mjigpgqsqV1qm9r09o1_400.jpg ooh
19:06:41 <ais523> kmc: not sure if you read the story, but the BBC is apparently in favour of that particular immigrant
19:06:56 <fizzie> The Finnish top 10 list contains, in order: 1) the marriage thing; 2) a petition to ban energy drinks for people under 16 years old; 3) one to fix the copyright legislation; 4) one to legalize use and posession of cannabis; 5) one to kill more top predators (to summarize); 6) one to arrange a vote on whether Finland should get out of the EU; 7) one about revamping the social security rules to ...
19:07:02 <fizzie> ... have a fixed base income for everyone; 8) one to make learning Swedish non-mandatory; 9) one to get rid of DST; and 10) one about something to do with shooting ranges and their environmental impact.
19:07:05 <boily> Bike: eeeeh... what are those?
19:07:17 <Bike> predatory ones
19:07:58 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Only if you can also vote in Finland.
19:08:10 <Bike> i read "use and possession of cannibals" for a second, that sounds more exciting
19:08:36 <boily> what's the average cost for a 3½ in Helsinki?
19:09:18 <fizzie> Bike: I think "legalize weed" is going to be very popular in many such petition systems. (Except perhaps if it's already legal in the place.)
19:09:37 <fizzie> I don't know what a 3½ is.
19:09:58 <lmt> my penis size
19:10:42 <shachaf> I think I can vote in Finland!
19:10:45 <boily> fizzie: that's how we designate appartment sizes. a 3½ is: one living room, one bedroom, one kitchen and one bathroom (the ½).
19:10:58 <Fiora> fizzie: those sound a lot better than ours, really :/
19:11:06 <Fiora> I think last I heard they were voting up one for a death star
19:11:31 <shachaf> I,I http://www.theonion.com/articles/opposition-to-soda-ban-sad-proof-that-americans-st,31658/
19:11:32 <ThatOtherPerson> Fiora: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/isnt-petition-response-youre-looking
19:11:36 <fizzie> boily: Oh; we'd call that a "kaksio" (approx. a "double") since it has two rooms -- the livingroom and the bedroom -- that really count.
19:11:50 <elliott> i liked that one whitehouse petition
19:11:54 <fizzie> boily: The one with a living room and two bedrooms is a "kolmio", lit. "a triangle".
19:12:04 <Fiora> ThatOtherPerson: that response is actually wonderful
19:12:09 <elliott> "We demand a vapid, condescending, meaningless, politically safe response to this petition."
19:12:56 * Fiora had no idea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Probe%2B existed, that is really cool!
19:13:08 <ais523> I love the fact that force fields actually exist
19:13:10 <ais523> even if they're mostly impractical
19:13:55 <ais523> ThatOtherPerson: some sort of plasma thing
19:13:58 <Fiora> I wonder how much power they get from the solar arrays at that distance
19:13:59 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought that said 'solar probe b' and then i confused it with gravity probe b
19:14:11 <fizzie> boily: Anyhow, the price range inside Helsinki varies really much depending on location (and other kind of things), but I picked a random ad from one of the major websites, for a 50 m^2 two-rooms-plus-open-kitchen-and-bathroom in a reasonably central location, and that's 250000 EUR.
19:14:46 <fizzie> boily: If you meant "to buy" as opposed to "to rent", that is.
19:15:07 <elliott> i was hoping the %2B was a !
19:15:32 <ais523> it's the first visible printable character
19:15:34 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:15:59 <Phantom_Hoover> i also felt very cheated when i found out SOHO isn't actually anywhere near the sun
19:16:00 <elliott> shut up ais523. you cannot ruin Space Probe! for me
19:16:04 <fizzie> Fiora: Well, it was the top ten. The bottom ten is pretty stupid, for example.
19:16:16 <Phantom_Hoover> because all the space books i had as a child drew it as being really close
19:17:20 <elliott> Radixal!!!! is an esoteric language created collaboratively by the #esoteric IRC channel on 7 December Category:2012.
19:17:31 <ThatOtherPerson> ais523: ah, when you said that I was reminded of this: http://gizmodo.com/5044624/ultrasound-haptic-devices-can-project-tactile-shapes-into-thin-air
19:17:32 <fizzie> ais523: Oh, and the 3½" floppies seem to retail at about 0.50 EUR/piece if you buy a box of 10. (Verbatim 3.5" MF2HD DataLife brand.)
19:17:59 <ThatOtherPerson> http://techcrunch.com/2008/09/03/haptic-system-uses-ultrasound-to-give-feel-to-objects-that-aren%E2%80%99t-there/
19:18:03 <ais523> fizzie: I don't think I asked the question, but still interesting to know
19:18:07 <ais523> that's rather more expensive than it used to be
19:18:16 <ais523> but given that they're much more of a specialist item nowadays, that's not surprising
19:18:34 <fizzie> ais523: You suggested that 3½ meant a floppy disk standard, which sort of implies a question, even if it doesn't ask it.
19:18:39 <boily> fizzie: I'm more interested by the "rent". besides, how much is 50m² in square feet?
19:18:56 <ais523> boily: there are 3¼ feet in a metre
19:19:01 <shachaf> @google 50 square meters in square feet
19:19:02 <lambdabot> http://www.metric-conversions.org/area/square-meters-to-square-feet-table.htm
19:19:02 <lambdabot> Title: Square Meters to Square Feet table
19:19:46 <fizzie> ais523: 3¼² is sufficiently close to 10 in order for 10 to be good enough for an order-of-magnitude conversions.
19:20:02 <fizzie> boily: Let's see a rent, then.
19:20:07 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
19:20:50 <fizzie> ais523: Also, the store I checked is only selling that single brand of 3½" floppies; they used to have more of a selection, before.
19:20:52 <shachaf> Hmm, that doesn't quite work.
19:21:02 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: my client agrees with foxfire's. here's something for you
19:21:54 <ThatOtherPerson> fungot: Why thank you. I'd be delighted to help you with your client's request.
19:21:55 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: getting another error now ;can't bind name in null syntactic environment as system-global-env's parent.
19:22:01 <Phantom_Hoover> my dad used to swear by his belief that pi was exactly 22/7
19:22:27 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: a political push to use one word for the first
19:22:52 <fizzie> boily: That seems to be around 1000-1500 EUR/month, for similar size in a similar place. You can go a lot cheaper by going further away from the city centre, naturally.
19:24:04 <Phantom_Hoover> does this mean if you have two things spinning in opposite directions they'll repel each other
19:24:21 <fizzie> Well, maybe not a "lot", but down to 700-750 EUR/month or something.
19:24:45 <boily> that is expensive!
19:24:54 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:25:23 <fizzie> There's a rather ridiculous bubble in housing prices when comparing Helsinki (and the surrounding region) to the rest of the country.
19:25:52 <lmt> one day i will move to finland and become finnish
19:26:56 <boily> fizzie: in Montréal, a 3½ is around 500~800 $/month.
19:27:28 <fizzie> boily: How big is that "3½" in your units, then?
19:27:38 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:28:01 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I didn't. *shame*
19:28:29 <boily> fizzie: it's around 550 sq. ft., so a little bit larger than your heathen 50 m² :p
19:28:47 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I've done all my mandatory Swedish already, so it's a matter of making sure everyone else gets to suffer too.
19:29:05 -!- oerjan has joined.
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19:29:24 <shachaf> @google 550 sq. ft. in sq. m
19:29:25 <lambdabot> http://www.metric-conversions.org/area/square-meters-to-square-feet.htm
19:29:25 <lambdabot> Title: Square Meters to Square Feet conversion
19:29:29 <boily> swedish is good for your health. you get to be able to order swedish food in swedish restaurants!
19:29:52 <olsner> swedish restaurants generally don't serve swedish food though
19:29:55 <lmt> order swedish fitta
19:31:12 <kmc> helsinki is super expensive in all ways, isn't it
19:31:33 <elliott> the worst cost is to your soul
19:31:43 <fizzie> boily: Our two-rooms-and-bathroom-and-really-tiny-kitchen place in the university student union housing was somewhere around 300-400 EUR/month, and it was... maybe 450 sq. feet. But of course that's quite different than renting from the open market.
19:32:05 <kmc> http://sfist.com/2013/03/07/map_average_rent_for_1br_in_san_fra.php
19:32:20 <shachaf> Cale is giving a monad tutorial in #haskell-in-depth
19:32:24 <shachaf> what has the world come to
19:32:34 <kmc> doesn't the topic say "NO MONAD TUTORIALS"
19:32:37 <shachaf> that is literally the thing you're not supposed to talk about
19:32:50 <fizzie> kmc: I'm not sure how "super", compared to those really expensive places, but I understand it is quite pricy.
19:33:01 <Bike> all monad tutorials all the time
19:33:05 <Bike> the monad channel
19:33:19 <shachaf> monad tutorials, moproblems
19:33:33 <elliott> kmc: I've banned two people in #haskell! little do they know my plan to slowly, gradually ban everyone in the universe. and then you can come back and it will be perfect.
19:33:43 <elliott> don't tell anyone it's secret.
19:33:50 <lmt> have you banned cale
19:33:56 <shachaf> elliott: i will keep its secrecy secret
19:33:59 <lmt> for not shutting the hell up about monads
19:34:22 <boily> monads are good. helsinki is good. everything is good, except monad tutorials.
19:34:32 <boily> (or maybe helsinki tutorials, but I haven't seen any of them yet.)
19:34:37 <kmc> i'm not sure whether cost / area is a good metric for urban apartments
19:34:48 <Bike> a "nad tutorial" seems sexual
19:35:01 <shachaf> kmc would not come back to #haskell if he was the last person on earth
19:35:16 <lmt> i used to go to #haskell
19:35:20 <lmt> worst time of my life
19:35:36 <Bike> one time i went to #haskell and now i only have one kidney
19:35:58 <shachaf> That's one kidney more than the average bicycle.
19:36:56 <boily> what he didn't say is that he started with three kidneys, all to himself.
19:37:18 <Bike> i DESERVED those kidneys you fuckers
19:37:19 <kmc> people pay for location more than space
19:37:31 <shachaf> #haskell robs the rich and gives to the poor
19:37:44 <kmc> so I think cost / bedrooms is better, because that's effectively how much you can split it
19:37:52 <kmc> even that is tricky
19:38:02 <fizzie> The only visualization about apartment prices in Helsinki I could find is about the average price to buy per square metre (which goes from 500 to 5000 depending on the city region), but that of course depends somewhat on the distribution of apartment sizes in the location.
19:38:17 <kmc> in NY there are a lot of listings for "flex 3BR" which means "2BR and you could put a shitty temporary wall in the living room and get a third bedroom if you are OK with having almost no living room"
19:39:54 <fizzie> Some of the new places they're building around here have a designed-in place for an optional divider wall if you want to split half of the living room into an extra bedroom.
19:40:34 <fizzie> It's marked with a dashed line in the plans they give in the brochure.
19:40:45 <boily> funny to see how across languages the same apartment is mapped to different digits. 3½ in French, kaksio in Finnish and 1BR in English.
19:41:59 <ais523> boily: it reminds me of floor numbering
19:42:07 <ais523> in the UK, floor "1" is the floor above the ground floor
19:42:19 <ais523> in areas with a lot of foreign visitors, the ground floor is typically numbered "0" to reduce confusion to some extent
19:43:56 <FreeFull> Buildings should be sunk into the ground in such a way so there is a floor that is halfway in
19:44:01 <FreeFull> And that would be the 0th floor
19:44:01 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:44:14 <ais523> FreeFull: that sort of thing is quite common in the UK too
19:44:25 <fizzie> Our set of words go "yksiö" (single-person apartment, usually in a single room + bathroom, but not always), "kaksio" (generally childless couples; bedroom, living room, plus the mandatory stuff), "kolmio" (two bedrooms, living room, and the rest; most common size to get after the first child), "neliö" (ditto but three bedrooms) -- those all have roots in the cardinal numbers, "yksi", ...
19:44:31 <fizzie> ... "kaksi", "kolme", "neljä" -- and then it kind of stops, and for larger places you probably just give room counts.
19:44:38 <ais523> there are multiple buildings in central birmingham with two ground floors that have another floor between them (which might or might not also be a ground floor)
19:44:39 <fizzie> They do have a set of standard abbreviations for apartment ads, though.
19:44:48 <ais523> due to it being so inconsistent in terms of height
19:45:45 <fizzie> Like "3H+K+KPH" is "three rooms plus kitchen plus bathroom", and so on; so you can just use those for larger places.
19:46:07 <lmt> but is the apartment specification language turing-complete
19:46:42 <lmt> 3H+K+KPHQ9+
19:46:58 <fizzie> I don't think it is. Not that I speak it fluently.
19:47:06 <fizzie> I'm not sure what this "P" is, for example.
19:47:27 <lmt> push onto the stack
19:48:04 <Bike> the stack of discarded furniture
19:48:13 <fizzie> And there's this 250 square metre (2690 sq.ft.) place -- for rent, 2600 EUR/month -- that's described with "5 h, k, rt, th, ask.h, kh, wc, sauna".
19:49:14 <fizzie> That's "5 rooms, kitchen, something, something (maybe office room?), craft room, probably-bathroom, toilet, sauna".
19:49:15 <boily> you can get your own private sauna in your own app.? wooooah...
19:49:30 <shachaf> fizzie: how much for a lake
19:49:35 <fizzie> boily: There are private saunas in really tiny apartments here.
19:50:16 <kmc> i guess it should not be the least bit surprising that the Finnish word for "sauna" is "sauna"
19:50:18 <fizzie> boily: Like, many of your 3½'s have this tiny can-fit-maybe-three-people-if-they-don't-mind-sitting-on-someone's-lap closet-saunas, for example.
19:50:54 <fizzie> boily: I can't quite give a percentage, but at least for new apartments, it certainly seems like the majority of them have saunas.
19:51:24 * boily 's eyes shine like an infatuated anime character in front of the most beautiful thing in the world.
19:54:06 <fizzie> None of the places I've lived in -- discounting back when I lived with my parents -- have had a per-apartment sauna, but that's just me.
19:55:05 <fizzie> In apartment buildings that don't have per-apartment saunas, I'd guesstimate at least 90% of them have a shared sauna for which you can reserve a one-hour slot per week.
19:57:03 <fizzie> Admittedly one hour is sort of not long enough to even get started, for a serious sauna-goer.
19:57:08 <fizzie> (Practical tip: the last slot of the day is nice, because then you don't have to hurry out in case someone's coming.)
19:57:52 <boily> our saunas have a warning that you should just spend 5 mins in them, up to probably 15 mins if you're an expert.
19:58:04 <boily> I think our sauna culture *may* be a tad different...
19:58:24 <ais523> they may be hotter than the finnish ones
19:58:55 <boily> that sounds really implausible.
19:58:59 <fizzie> ais523: I think a reasonable sauna temperature here is around 80°C.
19:59:42 <shachaf> I hear boily likes it at 100°.
19:59:43 <fizzie> But of course you go out (trad. to have a cold beer from the lake, and also to offer the mosquitoes a snack) quite often; then you repeat.
19:59:49 <ais523> I thought sauners were well above 100
20:00:05 <ais523> I'm more likely to type phonetically when tired
20:00:21 <Bike> that's p. rhotic
20:01:00 <fizzie> ais523: Well, 80-100°C, maybe; e.g. the competition things go higher than that, but that's not really for relaxing.
20:01:12 <ais523> there are sauna competitions?
20:01:14 <fizzie> It's somewhat a matter of taste.
20:01:28 <fizzie> ais523: I think they stopped after some people died, actually.
20:01:33 <fizzie> ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Sauna_Championships
20:01:39 <shachaf> I think they don't really do them officially anymore.
20:01:46 <ais523> can I addquote that? I want to
20:01:53 <ais523> just because it blows my mind
20:01:56 <fizzie> "The Championships were first held in 1999 and grew to feature contestants from over 20 countries. Sauna bathing at extreme conditions is a severe health risk: all competitors competed at their own risk, and had to sign a form agreeing not to take legal action against the organizers. Notably, the Finnish Sauna Society strongly opposed the event. After the death of one finalist and near-death ...
20:02:02 <fizzie> ... of another during the 2010 championship, the organizers announced that they would not hold another."
20:02:38 <ais523> I like Wikipedia's style of presenting facts next to each other and not drawing the obvious conclusion
20:02:56 <fizzie> They start at 110°C (which I'd consider "pretty hot" for a sauna), and pour half a liter of water on the stove every 30 seconds, and the last person to walk out without outside help is the winner.
20:03:04 <fizzie> (If they carry your body out, it doesn't count.)
20:03:29 <ais523> so why do people compete in this?
20:03:39 <ais523> is it purely drawn from the pool of people who will do absolutely anything?
20:03:57 <ais523> (the pool has a tendency to shrink as they accidentally kill themselves in bizarre ways)
20:04:10 <fizzie> It's a very common to do the same thing, except less formally, to prove your toughness.
20:04:23 <boily> ais523: the pool, it is very large.
20:04:26 <ais523> huh, this is actually an argument in favour of reality TV shows
20:04:32 <fizzie> It's kind of shameful to be the first one out of a sauna, for example.
20:04:44 <fizzie> Depending on the sort of company you keep, of course.
20:04:51 <ais523> they draw such people away from things that will likely kill them, and into activities that will merely ruin their life
20:05:40 <fizzie> As I understand it, in some countries you're not allowed to pour water on the sauna stove.
20:05:48 <fizzie> Which is an integral part of the thing in Finland.
20:06:16 <elliott> do you actually do the jumping into ice cold water afterwarsdsthing
20:06:31 <fizzie> elliott: I don't, personally, but many people do.
20:07:05 <fizzie> The closest body of water from here is a bit far, anyway.
20:07:24 <ais523> fizzie: what do you mean by "body of water"?
20:07:35 <ais523> like, there are several pretty near reservoirs
20:07:36 <fizzie> ais523: Lake, sea, that kind of thing.
20:07:41 <ais523> even though I live nowhere near the coast
20:07:49 -!- nooodl has joined.
20:07:55 <ais523> although jumping into a reservoir would get you into trouble in the UK
20:08:13 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, well, if it's not right next to the sauna, it's possibly kind of awkward to run naked through e.g. a city.
20:09:49 <fizzie> In Otaniemi (the university campus) it'd possibly be okay. I've seen a few naked people around there.
20:10:14 <fizzie> Though normally you'd just go to a sauna built next to water.
20:10:32 <ais523> is it possible to build a sauna underwater?
20:10:36 <ais523> so you'd cool off as you swam out?
20:10:37 <fizzie> The idea (AIUI) is to get a high temperature gradient, after all, so you need to minimize the sauna-to-water time.
20:10:52 <fizzie> It doesn't sound physically impossible, but I've never heard of one.
20:11:04 <oerjan> <ais523> huh, this is actually an argument in favour of reality TV shows <-- don't you mean an argument _against_? we're preventing cleaning of the gene pool here!
20:11:04 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:11:31 <fizzie> There are a couple of saunas on wheels that you could drive to any shore you like.
20:12:06 <fizzie> See e.g. https://www.google.com/search?q=sauna+auto&safe=off&tbm=isch
20:12:58 <fizzie> There was a very professional-looking (re build quality, finish, and so on) one around Otaniemi last summer.
20:13:27 <ais523> now I'm imagining a sauna airship
20:13:40 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Ribbit).
20:13:43 <Phantom_Hoover> there is presently one on channel 4 called bedtime: live
20:13:48 <fizzie> There are saunas on boats, I think. That gets quite close to water.
20:14:12 <Taneb> ais523, on the subject of jumping into reservoirs, you could probably get away with jumping into Kielder
20:14:16 <Phantom_Hoover> p. sure someone wrote a short story in the 80s about this kind of thing
20:14:16 <fizzie> There are certainly sauns on the 12-deck Helsinki/Stockholm cruise ships, but that probably doesn't quite count.
20:14:42 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that doesn't sound like a very interesting reality tv show
20:15:25 <Phantom_Hoover> it's live coverage of parents trying to get their children to sleep
20:16:18 <ais523> I think I feel sorry for their children
20:16:45 <ais523> informed consent seems necessary for this sort of thing
20:16:59 <ais523> and if someone is hard to persuade to go to sleep, they possibly aren't capable of giving informed consent
20:17:16 <elliott> does that mean I'm incapable of giving informed consent?
20:17:21 <elliott> it's pretty difficult to persuade me to go to sleep
20:17:30 <Taneb> elliott, go to sleep.
20:17:52 <Taneb> Please go to sleep, elliott.
20:18:11 <shachaf> elliott: stay awake forever
20:18:21 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:18:24 <Taneb> Based on personal experience, people are more likely to say "fuck you" to me while asleep
20:18:54 <ais523> while you're asleep, or while they're asleep?
20:19:06 <Taneb> While they're asleep
20:19:31 <ais523> I guess the main conclusion that can be drawn from this is that you're not generally disliked /and/ people have tendencies to have erotic fantasies about you
20:19:47 <Taneb> (I know someone who suffered from a head injury and so fell asleep really easily, while remaining pretty lucid, and she subconsciously hated me)
20:19:53 <fizzie> Also I understand many non-Finnish sauna cultures lack the part where you whip people?
20:21:07 <boily> never got whipped in a sauna, at least not consciously.
20:21:30 <ais523> I've never been in a sauna
20:21:37 <lmt> the russian culture certainly doesn't
20:21:56 <Sgeo> Saunas are those places where people cook themselves to death, right?
20:22:24 <oerjan> how the heck did you talk this much in just six hours.
20:22:53 <Taneb> oerjan, funnily enough, you have very little evidence any of us actually talked
20:23:04 <fizzie> I think Vorpal implied once that the whipping part was at least not ubiquitous in Sweden.
20:23:10 <Taneb> Wow, imagine if this was exclusively voice-chat
20:23:14 <ais523> Taneb: yeah but convincingly faking the HackEgo logs would take just as much effort as actual talk
20:23:38 <Taneb> ais523, I'm referring to "flapping one's mouth open and closed" style talking
20:23:46 <Bike> it's the kind of pointless effort this channel would go to, though!
20:23:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, I would even say it isn't common here
20:23:58 <Vorpal> even go as far as calling it rare
20:24:09 <Taneb> The place where I buy ice creams is closing :(
20:24:28 <ais523> elliott: do you know a closing ice cream shop nearby?
20:24:29 <Taneb> It was on the front page of the Hexham Courant
20:24:31 <Phantom_Hoover> <Taneb> Based on personal experience, people are more likely to say "fuck you" to me while asleep
20:24:33 <lmt> aniica vata sankhara
20:24:45 -!- oklopol has joined.
20:25:09 <Phantom_Hoover> i choose to this to interpret this as Taneb sneaking into friends' rooms and listening to them sleep-talking about him
20:25:26 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, nah, I'm just a dick to narcoleptics
20:25:37 <ais523> elliott: enough similar news events
20:25:44 <ais523> and you can determine how far from Taneb you live via binary search
20:25:46 <fizzie> Taneb: Is Hexham Currant a type of a berry?
20:26:05 <Taneb> ais523, we live within 3 miles of eachother
20:26:12 <Taneb> There's not going to be that much difference
20:26:16 <ais523> Taneb: is that the diameter of Hexham?
20:26:28 <fizzie> Hexham Currant Jam (occasionally called "Hexjam"), the breakfast toast complement of the discerning customer.
20:26:29 <elliott> ais523: Hexham is kind of tiny
20:26:31 <Taneb> It's about twice the diameter of Hexham
20:26:32 <elliott> there's not much we could deduce
20:26:57 <ais523> elliott: well presumably either there's an ice-cream shop nearer to you than the one near Taneb, or you never buy ice-cream
20:27:00 -!- nooodl_ has joined.
20:27:13 <elliott> you seem to be assuming there are more ice cream shops in hexham than there likely are
20:27:14 <Taneb> ais523, the one near me is pretty much in the middle of Hexham
20:27:18 <Taneb> And is a chocolate shop
20:27:31 <elliott> like there is no ice cream shop in hexham that could be so far away that it would not be close enough for a hexhamite to buy ice cream from it
20:27:49 <Taneb> elliott, there's Wheelbirk's, but that's not in Hexham
20:28:05 <elliott> i have in fact not heard of that
20:28:21 <Taneb> It's near Ebchester I think
20:28:25 <Taneb> So way to the south
20:28:44 <Taneb> (by "way to the south", I mean about maybe 10 miles south max)
20:29:43 <Taneb> nooodl_, it's not that great
20:29:49 <Taneb> We've got an old church
20:30:03 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
20:30:07 -!- nooodl_ has changed nick to nooodl.
20:30:07 <Taneb> Imaginatively named "The Old Gaol"
20:30:14 <Taneb> And a swimming pool
20:30:20 <Taneb> And at least two esolangers
20:30:31 <fizzie> The church -- if it's the one in the Wikipedia article main image -- looks rather impressive.
20:30:38 <elliott> yes we don't have two churches
20:30:58 <elliott> i hear the abbey is haunted(?)
20:30:58 <Bike> wow it was burned in 875
20:30:59 <Vorpal> elliott, how many live in Hexham?
20:31:02 <elliott> well i hear like evreywhere is haunted
20:31:05 <elliott> Vorpal: like 10k-20k or something
20:31:06 <Bike> sometimes i forget how fucking old everything in england is
20:31:18 <Vorpal> elliott, so slightly less than the town I live in
20:31:25 <Vorpal> just over 20k in the town I live in
20:31:32 <Taneb> Vorpal, that's huuge
20:31:43 <nooodl> i'm in a... whoa. 21k person municipality
20:31:45 <elliott> nooodl: that's from like 2001 or something
20:31:49 <nooodl> i thought it was a lot less
20:31:49 <Bike> my shitty town has about 17k
20:31:50 <Phantom_Hoover> the awful place i have to go to in ireland sometimes has a population of 1444
20:31:51 <elliott> so i imagine it's a bit more than 11k now
20:31:56 <Bike> i guess this means that statistically there are like
20:31:57 <elliott> but yeah it's probably not 20k
20:31:58 <Vorpal> Taneb, it is small for being a city, but it is officially a city
20:32:03 <Bike> three or four esolang people here probably??
20:32:03 <fizzie> Hexham is (IIRC) population-wise about the same size as the place where both of my parents are from, and where I used to visit every summer.
20:32:07 <shachaf> Bike: my town is smaller than your town
20:32:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well i used to live in a village with population like 100
20:32:12 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
20:32:13 <fizzie> Coincidentally, they too have a church: http://www.lieksanseurakunta.fi/kuvat/lieksa-1017-081c6b24b013a27e13bc97b8995688aa.jpg?v=1360672830
20:32:14 <Taneb> Vorpal, I raise you St David's, Wales
20:32:29 <Bike> elliott: so it'd have like a one hundredth of an esolanger? that sounds gruesome...
20:32:42 <Vorpal> Taneb, it was one of the last towns in Sweden to become a city before the concept of city rights was abolished (iirc that was related to guilds and taxes?)
20:32:43 <elliott> have i mentioned i was technically born in the south
20:32:48 <nooodl> ok it's church wars now
20:32:48 <nooodl> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Edegem_Basiliek1.JPG
20:33:14 <elliott> ours is better than both of those
20:33:17 <Bike> i think the nearest remotely notable church is like, mormon
20:33:21 <elliott> well actually fizzie's looks cool
20:33:38 <elliott> http://www.katemb.com/wp-content/uploads/Inside_Hexham_Abbey_Hexham_United_Kingdom.jpg
20:33:39 <fizzie> CHURCH WARS http://www.rky.fi/read/asp/hae_kuva.aspx?id=104147&ttyyppi=jpg&kunta_id=49 SO MUCH CONCRETE. (This one is in Espoo.)
20:34:00 <elliott> it's literally older than people and food
20:34:01 <nooodl> im going to become a christian
20:34:14 <Taneb> Please don't move to Hexham just to become a Christian
20:34:26 <nooodl> but this church, Taneb
20:34:42 <nooodl> what if i buy this church and move into it
20:34:49 <elliott> who is it that's buried in there or something
20:34:52 <Bike> hey do we have any spaniards
20:34:55 <fizzie> I think we had the discussion about Finland's most popular tourist attraction church on-channel already, but it's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temppeliaukio_Church -- just look at the inside pictures of it. (Because the outside doesn't look like anything.)
20:35:05 <Taneb> elliott, old king of Northumbria
20:35:05 <Bike> because 60 Minutes did a areport on that one basilica and it looked damn pretty
20:35:05 <Vorpal> Taneb, calling 20k huge: I work in a city closer to 200k. 20 km from here
20:35:09 <elliott> http://www.peterloud.co.uk/photos/Northumberland/Hexham_Abbey/Hexham_2-w750.jpg 3 churches 4 the price of 1
20:35:12 <shachaf> fizzie: plz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temppeliaukio_Church
20:35:20 <oerjan> `run echo test | colorize
20:35:22 <HackEgo> bash: colorize: command not found
20:35:26 <Vorpal> Taneb, the church in that city: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%C3%96rebro_Sankt_Nikolai_kyrka.JPG
20:35:29 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
20:35:31 <Vorpal> elliott, how about that one ^
20:35:44 <elliott> http://www.peterloud.co.uk/photos/Northumberland/Hexham_Abbey/North_Window-2_3713-w768.jpg fuckin stained glass, man
20:35:45 <oerjan> elliott: you realize there are other commands that _use_ that one?
20:35:56 <Vorpal> traditional, and not crazy like the ones in Finland, true
20:36:03 <nooodl> i used to live near literally the most boring church
20:36:05 <nooodl> http://www.kerkeninvlaanderen.be/i/13/01347_2547_lint_olvr_geboorte_01.jpg
20:36:06 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Margaret's_Chapel,_Edinburgh
20:36:20 <Sgeo> According to some msg I got
20:36:27 <nooodl> Phantom_Hoover: hahaha
20:36:31 <fizzie> World's largest wooden church is in Finland, if you believe these folks. (I'm not entirely certain.)
20:36:37 <elliott> fizzie: have i mentioned that church thing is colourful
20:36:40 <Sgeo> Also, grah, those sorts of messages annoy me. They always end up in some random channel in this client
20:36:48 <Phantom_Hoover> also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Giles%27_Cathedral but who cares
20:37:03 <fizzie> elliott: Maybe they've just turned up the colour saturation slider.
20:37:28 <nooodl> hmm... this is the nicest church i've entered http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Lille_eglise_Saint_Maurice_arriere.jpg
20:37:39 <fizzie> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Church_of_Kerimaki.jpg MOAR CHURCH (that's the woody one)
20:37:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: wow what a shitty church
20:37:47 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Mary%27s_Cathedral,_Edinburgh_(Roman_Catholic) is quite nice inside
20:37:50 <boily> what appears to be my current parish's church: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-Jean-Berchmans_Church
20:37:58 <nooodl> fizzie: that looks kinda ridiculous
20:38:13 <Bike> what the hell is PDPC anyway
20:38:19 <elliott> i like how the static version of the blog post is also down
20:38:54 <Bike> is freenode down? am I here? are you here? who are you
20:39:09 <fizzie> nooodl: There's a persistent (though untrue) legend that the biggest wooden church was built so big due to unit confusion when reading the plans.
20:39:44 <nooodl> http://v2.nonxt1.c.bigcache.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/172281.jpg wins the church wars btw
20:39:53 <fizzie> Apparently the actual reason is that the vicar at the time just wanted a church that's big enough to hold half of the people of the town (at the time, 12000 people).
20:40:07 <nooodl> fizzie: that's a cute legend
20:40:39 <ais523> Bike: PDPC own Frenode
20:40:48 <Sgeo> "to further reduce costs we have also discontinued the majority of infrastructure services for which the organisation paid, together with the reduced administration and organisational fees this means that we are now in a position where our outgoings are restricted to domain renewals! "
20:40:57 <elliott> http://planet.freenode.net.nyud.net has a working copy of the boring message.
20:40:57 <Sgeo> Who's paying for the servers?
20:41:02 <Sgeo> And bandwidth?
20:41:11 <ais523> [Notice] -mrmist- [Global Notice] As a P.S. to the last global, no, we're not dying or going away.
20:41:26 <elliott> there are freenode servers all over the globe
20:41:30 <elliott> seriously though guys http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/Temppeliaukio_Church.jpg you have to hand it to the finnish
20:41:46 <Bike> "In practise it means very little" k
20:41:59 <Sgeo> The same was said about Cybertown after Blaxxun went bankrupt
20:42:11 <Phantom_Hoover> that kind of reminds me of the church in nowhere, ireland
20:42:13 <shachaf> now #haskell-in-depth is talking about haskell vs. python
20:42:33 <Bike> Sgeo: did you actually construct that sentence
20:42:39 <ais523> elliott: ooh, it's further evidence for an observation I made recently
20:43:04 <ais523> which is that server space is now cheap enough, in most cases, that it no longer makes sense to fund it via any means but simply paying for it yourself
20:43:07 <fizzie> We don't have any of those impressive cathedral-style churches, though, I don't think.
20:43:08 <Bike> also i can't say i like that temppeliaukio thing but that's because i hate modern church architecture kind of irrationally
20:43:09 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:43:15 <ais523> even asking for donations is too much effort
20:43:30 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:43:50 <elliott> Bike: what gets me is that it looks like it belongs in, like
20:44:08 <oerjan> <Bike> elliott: so it'd have like a one hundredth of an esolanger? that sounds gruesome... <-- it's ok there's just this crazy guy that gets possessed by an esolang spirit every friday the 13th
20:45:23 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
20:46:41 <fizzie> We've got these kind of things http://bonovox.squarespace.com/storage/uspenski-orthodox-cathedral-cc-ja-macd.jpg http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2566/3725590329_b0dc9f846d.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Johanneksen_kirkko_Johannes_church_crop.jpg in Helsinki that sort of try to look generically impressive, but don't really manage so much.
20:47:53 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
20:48:25 <fizzie> People climb to the roof between the twin towers of the last one every now and then.
20:48:37 <fizzie> Not for any particular reason, just because.
20:48:40 <fizzie> It's discouraged, of course.
20:48:44 <elliott> first one looks like maybe a government building
20:48:56 <elliott> second one looks like another governemnt building
20:49:11 <elliott> third one looks like a kind of hal-hearted church
20:49:43 <fizzie> First one is the main place of the orthodox church of Finland, or whatever their official name is.
20:50:33 <fizzie> And I guess the second one is the same for the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland.
20:50:44 -!- Bike_ has joined.
20:51:52 <Bike_> elliott: yeah that too
20:57:43 <impomatic2> Argh! Amazon quadrupled the price between adding to the basket and checking out. :-(
20:58:58 <Taneb> Well, this will certainly be the most... coastal anime con I've attended
20:59:02 <Taneb> Out of 2, to be fair
20:59:13 <lmt> i read that as amazon quadruped
20:59:25 <lmt> which is probably some kind of capybara
20:59:46 <Taneb> It's practically on the beach
21:01:15 <ais523> impomatic2: do you consider that to be an attempt to get you to buy it at four times the price?
21:01:35 <Sgeo> I seem to have accidentally created an Orkut account
21:01:44 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
21:01:46 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:03:49 <impomatic2> ais523: I think the amazon sellers run software to continually adjust their prices. E.g. 0.01 below the lowest price. Or the lowest price +10%, or whatever.
21:04:25 <ais523> if that's anything like the typical MMO economy, and I don't see why it wouldn't be, if something's in short supply then the higher-priced sellers will buy it from the lower-priced sellers
21:04:33 <impomatic2> It's amusing when to price bots get together, especially if they're working on +10% or something. Books can be priced in the millons
21:05:11 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:05:15 <Sgeo> I visited the Orkut home page and since I was logged into some google service (looked like it was using YouTube's information), it made an Orkut account for me.
21:05:25 -!- carado has joined.
21:06:26 <impomatic2> There's even books listed 2nd hand which haven't been published yet.
21:06:41 <fizzie> ais523: There have been a couple of articles about algorithmic Amazon pricing; one of them involved sellers that put up things for sale that they don't actually have in stock, with a high price.
21:07:13 <ais523> Sgeo: I still don't regret deleting all my Google accounts
21:07:30 <fizzie> http://www.michaeleisen.org/blog/?p=358 "Amazon’s $23,698,655.93 book about flies" is at least one I've read.
21:07:36 <ais523> although I'm not sure I'd recommend it to other people
21:08:28 <impomatic2> I bet someone's laundering money through Amazon by listing books which don't exist.
21:08:48 <fizzie> It's a feedback loop of two companies, one setting price to 0.9983 of the other, while the other setting it to 1.270589 of the first one.
21:09:15 <fizzie> Since 0.9983*1.270589 > 1...
21:09:41 <impomatic2> I was wondering if I can list a book at 0.50 or something so the algorithmic pricers change to 0.49 or something.
21:09:57 <impomatic2> Then buy the book I want and delete my listing... Might save me a few :-)
21:10:06 <Taneb> If you have a few copies of the book just in case
21:11:02 <ais523> impomatic2: the algorithmic pricers might immediately attempt to buy it, instead
21:12:49 <impomatic2> I'd like a copy of "Lisp in Small Pieces" but 46 is too high...
21:12:54 <Taneb> It may be ever so slightly illegal
21:13:15 <impomatic2> Not illegal, though I'm sure it's against Amazon's T&C
21:13:29 <kmc> Sgeo: are you brazilian now
21:13:37 <oerjan> <shachaf> elliott: Your irssi window doesn't have to close when you leave a channel. <-- for quite a while i had this empty no. 2 or was it 3 window that i didn't know how to get rid of.
21:13:44 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
21:14:57 <fizzie> kmc: Isn't that £$₫ or something.
21:15:06 <kmc> pounds, dollars, and dongs?
21:15:26 <Taneb> librae, sesteces, and denarii
21:15:26 <kmc> Pounds, Dollars, and Dongs: The KMC Story
21:15:32 <Bike> just pirate books like a normal person
21:15:36 <impomatic2> sd = pounds, shillings and pence (if you're old enough to remember)
21:15:44 <Taneb> You can /pirate/ books!?
21:15:45 <kmc> đồngs i guess
21:15:47 <impomatic2> Don't ask why d = pence, because I don't know
21:15:56 <kmc> impomatic2: latin, Taneb had it already
21:16:20 <kmc> also why L = pounds
21:16:25 <Bike> Taneb: how have you survived up to now
21:16:33 <fizzie> GitS:SAC had yen-euro-dollars, IIRC; in an episode called ¥€$.
21:16:41 <Taneb> Bike, by never reading ever
21:16:55 <Bike> i don't think that was one currency, just a bunch of stuff the assassin shoved into her arm
21:17:00 <Bike> Taneb: so the answer is "I haven't"
21:17:13 <Bike> anyway i mention this because i have a pirated copy of lisp in small pieces, specifically.
21:17:21 <Taneb> I generally get physical books from a local bookshop
21:17:29 <Fiora> " Examples are 13-fold ionized iron (Fe13+), or Fe (XIII) in spectroscopic notation, found in the Sun's corona, or naked uranium (U92+), bare all bound electrons, which requires very high energy for its production." wow. wikipedia's writing
21:17:35 <Fiora> "naked uranium bares all bound electrons"
21:17:54 <Bike> i didn't know hexham had a bookshop
21:18:03 <elliott> we have a bookshop but not books
21:18:13 <kmc> a cheeseshop but no cheese
21:18:13 <Bike> right same here
21:18:14 <Taneb> Bike, it has 2 selling new books, and at least 2 second hand
21:18:39 <Bike> i mean you can't just go down to the local bookshop and buy Intelligence as Adaptive Behavior or whatever obscure nonfiction shit
21:18:48 <Bike> unless you live in portland maybe (assholes)
21:19:05 <kmc> i like the conspiracy theories about how NAFTA is trying to introduce a North American "Amero" currency
21:19:16 <kmc> cause I'm sure the US wants to be in a monetary union with Mexico
21:19:24 <shachaf> I want to go to Portland again so I can go to Powell's.
21:19:29 <Bike> i got three books on neurodynamics from powell's, all sold to them by the same guy
21:19:32 <Bike> pretty awesome
21:20:00 <Bike> Fiora: physicists need to get out more?
21:20:10 <Taneb> But yeah, if I ever want to learn to program on an Amiga, I know EXACTLY where to go to buy some books
21:21:12 <FreeFull> All the information you need is on the internet
21:21:13 <Bike> Taneb: http://globalnerdy.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/forth_on_the_atari.jpg
21:21:24 <fizzie> If you want to learn to program a Z80, Zilog used to send you the book for free.
21:21:25 <elliott> i can't tell if you're making a sincere statement or not
21:21:35 <fizzie> Postage paid, and all.
21:21:41 <FreeFull> Bike: I think that image was edited to give the guy a boner
21:21:48 <kmc> shachaf: the dream of the 90's is alive in portland
21:21:57 <fizzie> (Nowadays they only give you the PDF for free.)
21:22:32 <kmc> FreeFull: just for accuracy
21:22:34 <kmc> to the subject
21:22:45 <Bike> http://internetcensus2012.github.com/InternetCensus2012/paper.html so um
21:22:52 <Bike> "We used these devices to build a distributed port scanner to scan all IPv4 addresses."
21:22:53 <lmt> i'm pretty sure that guy had a boner from the beginning
21:23:07 <kmc> oh they're standing on a keyboard
21:23:13 <FreeFull> Huh, it seems that is the original image
21:23:25 <lmt> it's a great image
21:23:30 <Taneb> Unfortunately, I'd first need one of those computery things
21:23:30 <kmc> http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/1636/sicpcl6.jpg
21:23:39 <Taneb> And Bike that Forth book looks amazing
21:23:50 <Bike> it's pretty great at parties
21:23:52 <fizzie> I seem to recall someone else scanning the whole IPv4 address space too.
21:24:01 <ais523> Bike: what, even the multicast noes an the private use region?
21:24:04 <Bike> "After completing the scan of roughly one hundred thousand IP addresses, we realized the number of insecure devices must be at least one hundred thousand."
21:24:07 <kmc> more here http://www.globalnerdy.com/2007/09/14/reimagining-programming-book-covers/
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21:24:30 <Bike> the forth one isn't an edit though, which is the good part. way better than some sketchy animal
21:24:31 <ais523> btw, CLC-INTERCAL has a really brilliant way of handling IPv6
21:24:39 <ais523> you look up an IPv6 address as if it were a domain name
21:24:42 <kmc> i,i Die Gnu Autotools
21:24:53 <ais523> and it gives you an IPv4 address (in the multicast region) that you can use as a substitute
21:24:58 <fizzie> SICP already has a pretty funky cover, though.
21:25:08 <Bike> kmc: this just reminds me how fucking terrible fantasy art is
21:25:09 -!- copumpkin has joined.
21:25:13 <ais523> this is probably the most backwards-compatible method I've ever seen, I recommend adding it to glibc
21:25:43 <Taneb> ais523, I find that mildly amusing
21:25:43 <elliott> ais523: um what if you want to connect to 1000000005823489723894723894728934723894723894892342349823489234 ipv6s simultaneously
21:25:50 <Bike> okay the why's poignant guide one is awesome
21:26:04 <kmc> the woman on the FORTH book is wearing some kind of upside down bra
21:26:07 <ais523> elliott: well then it doesn't work but you'd run out of other resources first, like file handles
21:26:09 <kmc> is there even a name for such an item
21:26:30 <kmc> yes they both do appear to be dressed in bondage gear
21:26:41 <olsner> a push-down? maybe it's some sort of pun on stacks
21:26:56 <Bike> god that would be awful so it's probably true
21:27:20 <kmc> http://blog.signalnoise.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/i_atari2_2.jpg
21:27:21 <fizzie> ais523: There's a real compatibility thing that does vaguely something like that; though there you actually look up a real domain name; if it has an IPv4 record, it returns that; but if it only has an AAAA record, it makes up an IPv4 address that (for that program) works as a substitute.
21:27:51 <Bike> kmc: what is that, breakout?
21:27:59 <kmc> BUZZ ALDRIN SPACE RAINBOW TENNIS™
21:28:28 <kmc> package includes: Atari cartride, glass pipe, 20x Salvia divinorum extract
21:29:16 <Bike> i'm just trying to imagine the actual game, since i don't think psychedelic demos (psychedemia?) was really possible on an atari
21:29:24 <Bike> maybe in forth
21:30:06 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrhJ9wDNWm4
21:31:07 <lmt> salvia is awful
21:31:09 <Bike> i just made the classic blunder didn't I. assuming a demoscene hacker can't make a system shock remake out of a pile of twigs and copper
21:31:35 <fizzie> ais523: See http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ngtrans-bia-03 for the details of it, if you like.
21:31:42 <lmt> this is salvia basically http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/3628/hmmev.gif
21:31:57 <fizzie> "If only the AAAA record is available, it requests the address mapper to assign an IPv4 address corresponding to the IPv6 address, then creates the A record for the assigned IPv4 address, and returns the A record to the application."
21:32:07 <kmc> lmt: yeah seems about right
21:32:25 <kmc> lmt: we would have also accepted https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX3iLfcMDCw
21:32:30 <shachaf> this is salvia basically http://img.foodnetwork.com/FOOD/2008/11/24/GL1B13_Country-Bread-and-Sage-Dressing_lg.jpg
21:32:31 <Bike> that looks like the opposite of awful. what am i missing
21:33:31 <lmt> two hands should be enough for anyone
21:34:23 <kmc> Bike: the realization that lurking just outside your Plato's Cave view on reality are entities you can never comprehend
21:34:35 <kmc> or perhaps the feeling that you didn't return to quite the right universe
21:34:40 <lmt> who don't like you very much
21:34:41 <kmc> which will haunt you forever
21:34:54 <kmc> however, yolo
21:35:01 <fizzie> Bike: If you want to verify that, just go to http://pouet.net/prodlist.php and multiselect all platforms that start with "Atari", then poke the submit button; then go through the entries one by one. (There are only 242 pages of 25 results each.)
21:35:03 <lmt> it's basically the scariest shit ever
21:36:10 <kmc> my friend took it and experienced several months of subjective time, during which he learned that he'd poisoned himself with the drug and was slowly dying while his family and friends came to the hospital to ask him why he had done this thing
21:36:22 <Bike> sounds way better than your average horror film
21:36:32 <lmt> if you want to be really scared, sure, try salvia
21:36:40 <kmc> and then after he died he came back to our reality about three minutes later
21:36:46 <Bike> you're mostly making me want to try it to see how it compares to my nightmares
21:36:48 <kmc> three minutes from whe he'd smoked it
21:37:29 <Bike> though clearly i should try something less strong first, like mama's classic style ditryptamines
21:37:40 <lmt> kmc: i've heard of people being trapped for thousands of years
21:37:44 <lmt> subjective time is a bitch
21:38:01 <elliott> good way to extend your lifespan
21:38:07 <fizzie> (The BIA draft also refers to a slightly related BIS approach of RFC2767.)
21:38:18 <olsner> is that really subjective time? or more like when dreaming and you "know" that it's suddenly a thousand years later?
21:38:40 <Bike> probably the latter insofar as you can define subjective time
21:38:45 <Bike> kmc: have you heard of junji ito?
21:38:54 <lmt> olsner: it is enough for it to be subjective knowledge that you're stuck there for thousands of years for each moment of the experience to be unbearably unpleasant
21:39:20 <fizzie> (There seems to be an absolutely amazing number of RFC documents on IPv6 transition methods of various levels of freakiness.)
21:39:21 <olsner> it seems a bit improbable to experience significantly more time than normal
21:39:22 <Bike> he wrote a comic called "Long Dream"
21:39:30 <kmc> Bike: i'm happy to provide drug recommendations
21:39:32 <Bike> about a guy who kept having longer and longer subjective dreams every night
21:39:48 <lmt> drug recommendation #1: don't try salvia
21:39:50 <kmc> i don't mean to discourage people from trying salvia, if it really sounds like a good idea after all the above
21:40:07 <Bike> three nights in he wakes up talking about how he barely remembers the doctor, it was so long ago
21:40:10 <Bike> etc. good comic
21:40:11 <kmc> oh also another friend would take salvia and then just beg me to make sure he never took it again, without giving specifics
21:40:16 <lmt> i feel like the only use for it is to gauge your mental strength
21:40:22 <kmc> and then after he came down 3 min later, had no idea why and shrugged it off
21:40:30 <lmt> and your acceptance of death and stuff like that
21:40:32 <Bike> kmc: you're the one who linked that pikhal page, right? i already convinced a friend we should try it
21:40:32 <fizzie> Drug recommendation #0 [a meta-recommendation]: don't talk about drug recommendations on freenode channels, I'm pretty sure it's against the policies and/or guidelines.
21:40:40 <kmc> Bike: which page
21:40:46 <kmc> OH NO THE POLICIES
21:40:52 <kmc> Bike: that sounds like a good comic
21:40:56 <Bike> kmc: some drug that affected your perception of sound
21:41:04 <Bike> he's a musician, he thought it souned great
21:41:13 <kmc> it's a bit obscure but yeah you should try it, if you can get it from a safe and trusted source
21:41:41 <kmc> which is quite unlikely :/
21:41:52 <Bike> Obviously I should make it myself. Totally safe.
21:42:06 <kmc> yeah if you have a trustd friend with organic synthesis skills and access to a lab
21:42:09 <kmc> then do that
21:42:13 <Bike> http://www.justmegawatt.com/comics/longdream.html I forgot, the other part of Long Dream is about this chick who's morbidly (ha! ha!) afraid of death
21:42:20 <shachaf> kmc: ooh give me a drugs recommendation
21:42:21 <elliott> is fizzie threatening to kick kmc
21:42:40 <fizzie> elliott: With my reputation? No, I'm just sort of hinting.
21:42:41 <olsner> elliott: that's not how I read it
21:43:00 <elliott> well this channel is also publicly-logged so i'm pretty sure the feds are at kmc's door as we speak
21:43:15 <Bike> we have to book you for possession of some creepy-ass shit
21:43:26 <kmc> i don't have any DiPT or any salvia
21:43:32 <kmc> these are tales of years ago
21:43:46 <fizzie> You could take it to the #esoteric-drugs subchannel, though; that's what usually gets done. (I'm sure everyone who'd join #esoteric-drugs would *certainly* assume the "esoteric" refers to esoteric programming languages.)
21:43:47 <lmt> salvia is legal in most places
21:44:02 <elliott> fizzie: has that literally ever happened before
21:44:11 <lmt> it's legal because nobody really wants to abuse it
21:44:13 <elliott> kmc: i am sure the statue of limitations has passed on literally everything you have ever done also right
21:44:21 <Bike> I actually live in a state with legal weed, and I'm pretty sure strong hallucinogens are basically the same as weed?
21:44:31 <kmc> anyway something like DiPT is too obscure to circulate in the usual drug black markets, except maybe sold as something else and that sucks bigtime
21:44:33 <fizzie> elliott: Quite a lot of minecraft talk did end up in #esoteric-minecraft back then.
21:44:46 <Bike> kmc: Isn't the point of pikhal and tikhal making it yourself?
21:44:46 <fizzie> "Countries where salvia is controlled in some manner include: Australia, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Italy, Japan, the United States, Russia, Spain, and Sweden" yay, we've made the list.
21:44:48 <lmt> why shouldn't minecraft talk be here?
21:45:06 <kmc> 'research chemicals' that aren't illegal can be bought direct over the Internet from sketchy synthesis companies in China
21:45:12 <kmc> occasionally they mess up and send you poison
21:45:20 <kmc> and you need to know which ones are functioning and not a scam this week
21:45:22 <fizzie> lmt: Because it's off-topic and was crowding out on-topic stuff? (Hypothetically, anyway.)
21:45:29 <lmt> how is it off-topic :(
21:45:45 <lmt> possibly the most successful esoteric language ever
21:45:46 <kmc> presumably you could also buy it on Silk Road
21:45:56 <kmc> but how do you know what you're getting
21:46:05 <olsner> lmt: minecraft is boring
21:46:28 <lmt> brainfuck is boring but it is still on-topic
21:46:37 <kmc> salvia being legal is kind of a problem because irresponsible assholes sell it as 'legal weed' and idiots buy it and hurt themselves
21:46:43 <kmc> psychologically if not physically
21:46:57 <kmc> ofc. the solution is not to ban salvia but to legalize weed
21:47:17 <lmt> i doubt people get seriously hurt
21:47:24 <lmt> unless they were schizophrenic to begin with
21:47:24 <kmc> http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycons-response-to-inapropriate.html you can't smoke weed at PyCon
21:47:55 <elliott> well you can't do anything fun at pycon to start with
21:48:03 <lmt> are they saying guido wasn't high when he came up with significant indentation
21:48:11 <Bike> family friendly environment?
21:48:30 <elliott> indoctrinate your kids with python at an early age
21:48:33 <elliott> so they'll never become programmers
21:48:33 <kmc> lmt: imo indentation syntax is great, as long as it's just sugar for an explicit form
21:48:37 <kmc> that's where python goes wrong :(
21:48:44 <lmt> kmc: imo python is great
21:48:54 <kmc> python akbar
21:49:10 <lmt> and people who don't like significant whitespace are very stupid people
21:49:31 <lmt> the kind of people who would ban weed smokers from python conferences..
21:49:34 <kmc> people who don't like $my_favorite_thing aren't Real Hackers anyway
21:49:39 <Bike> Shit's getting meta.
21:49:42 <kmc> smoking inside is a dick move though
21:49:47 <kmc> whether it's weed or tobaccy
21:49:58 <fizzie> lmt: The parts that would arguably make it an esolang are reasonably minor, and weren't mostly involved in the discussion. Anyhow, you can go read the logs around the time when #esoteric-minecraft was established; IIRC there was mostly a consensus, of sorts.
21:50:03 <fizzie> (All this babbling should really be on #esoteric-en anyway, right?)
21:50:44 <lmt> i don't like fragmentation of a community of 10 people
21:51:04 <lmt> you're right. it's less
21:51:04 <elliott> #esoteric-minecraft is unused anyway
21:51:10 <elliott> except for actual server chat except that never happens
21:51:14 <ais523> it was used back when minecraft was popular
21:51:22 <lmt> is anyone playing on their server?
21:51:24 <Bike> anyone remember that part in unix-haters where they made fun of usenet (posts about how to organize usenet)
21:51:25 <ais523> but people mostly weren't playing it for redstone, and redstone isn't that interesting as an esolang
21:51:25 <Taneb> Yeah, two weeks ago
21:51:27 <Bike> best part, i think
21:51:47 <elliott> also it was the minecraft people who moved to -minecraft anyway
21:52:20 <nooodl> redstone is so annoying to make anything in
21:52:23 <ais523> so that we didn't spoil their minecraft discussion with esolangs?
21:52:39 <fizzie> Yes, and I don't think anyone even suggested that would be "fragmenting the community" somehow.
21:52:40 <Taneb> Sometimes -minecraft is used for Dwarf Fortress
21:52:43 <lmt> redstone is super annoying
21:52:45 <Taneb> elliott, Phantom_Hoover
21:52:49 <ais523> and people can be in multiple channels
21:52:54 <lmt> which is a hallmark of a good esolang
21:53:05 <ais523> elliottcraft would also be annoying to make things in
21:53:11 <ais523> I have most of a spec, but haven't gone close to attempting to implement it
21:53:12 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, convince elliott to start a fortress
21:53:16 <lmt> i wish dwarf fortress were less buggy :(
21:53:23 <elliott> hahahahahaha me start a fortress
21:53:27 <ais523> (btw: elliottcraft is my language, it's just named after someone else)
21:53:28 <Taneb> Dwarf Fortress pestering, I'm afraid
21:53:36 <elliott> Taneb: call the fortres something stupid please
21:53:55 <lmt> i've been playing dwarf fortress a lot recently
21:54:00 <Taneb> elliott, my laptop is playing up and I never resolved the chinese graphics card fiasco so I can't use my computer
21:54:06 <Phantom_Hoover> i wonder if you can still use the UNCOUTH names for your fortress
21:54:08 <Taneb> lmt, want to start a succession fortress?
21:54:32 <Taneb> Head of the military is named after Gre_gor
21:54:44 <Taneb> Farmer is named after me
21:55:07 <Taneb> The dorf named after elliott gets a lavish room unless you don't want him to
21:55:46 <ais523> ooh, that bug in Konversation we found earlier today has been fixed already
21:55:49 <ais523> that was quite a turnaround
21:59:34 <Bike> http://www.justmegawatt.com/comics/assets/comics/horror/longdream/07.jpg so this is salvia eh
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21:59:44 <Taneb> > (\x y -> y . x y) id (+1) 0
22:00:03 <lmt> that does not seem representative
22:00:38 <Taneb> > let p x y = y . x y in p (p id) (+ 1) 0
22:00:53 <Taneb> > let p x y = y . x y in p (p (join fmap)) (+ 1) 0
22:03:32 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:03:55 <lmt> should have told him to take it into #esoteric-haskell
22:05:17 <lmt> well it shouldn't be
22:05:44 <elliott> i thought you were just arguing against fragmentation
22:05:45 <lmt> since haskell is not an esoteric language..
22:05:51 <lmt> i changed my mind
22:06:05 <elliott> i think you need to be in #esoteric-fragmentation then
22:07:47 <lmt> fragmentation of consciousness
22:08:36 <Bike> http://www.justmegawatt.com/comics/assets/comics/horror/longdream/27.jpg how about this is this salvia
22:08:46 <Bike> it this esoteric
22:08:48 <Bike> is this haskell?
22:08:57 <lmt> it is haskell
22:09:13 <lmt> he's falling apart into monads...
22:10:12 <Bike> monad tutorials blow him away
22:10:50 <lmt> a tragic fate
22:15:17 <Bike> http://internetcensus2012.github.com/InternetCensus2012/images/clientmap_16to9_1600x900.jpg dang, they made a map of infectees.
22:23:33 <oerjan> Bike: i'm pretty sure your previous picture wasn't haskell. hth.
22:38:49 <lmt> Bike: here's salvia http://i.imgur.com/Z4d8scj.gif
22:43:08 <Bike> salvia has a good raytracer
22:47:48 <olsner> and animation and lzw compression and a 256-color palette
22:48:24 <Sgeo> This website put a 500GB HD as "destitute"
22:52:54 <impomatic2> Dwarf Fortress ought to be available for android :-(
22:53:23 -!- lmt has left.
22:56:13 <Sgeo> What would the UI be like o.O
22:56:28 <olsner> it would be dwarf fortressy
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23:12:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, all functions are mapped to some sort of gesture
23:13:46 <Phantom_Hoover> also: i like the glossy digestive biscuit in lament's salvia picture
23:14:03 <Sgeo> Ugh this tutorial wants me to install node.js
23:14:44 <Sgeo> no its not a node.js tutorial
23:16:59 <Sgeo> uh. It wants me to install node.js 0.8. This is 0.2.6
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23:25:45 <Sgeo> Meh, if node.js doesn't work, I'll skip/read those parts of the tutorial
23:30:19 <Sgeo> Oh joy if I can't get node.js working I get to figure out how to run a web server
23:30:39 <Bike> if you just want it locally that's not exactly hard
23:31:19 <elliott> um Bike are you admitting to knowing things about node.js
23:31:45 <Sgeo> I don't want node.js I want to do an angular.js tutorial
23:31:51 <Bike> i meant, a web server
23:32:00 <Bike> but yes in my workplace I'm known as the NodeMaster.
23:32:09 <monqy> by "do" do you mean "create" or "follow" and why
23:32:28 <Bike> Superheroic JavaScript MVW Framework definitely sounds like something to learn
23:32:29 <Sgeo> Because my job will involve AngularJS
23:33:06 <monqy> i dont know anything about node.js except it's a server side javascript solution and something about CPS and some people like it and some people hate it yada yada it's probably awful
23:33:33 <kmc> you should read http://blog.nelhage.com/2012/03/why-node-js-is-cool/
23:33:35 <monqy> yessss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_server-side_JavaScript_solutions still exists
23:34:09 <kmc> tldr: it's cool because it designates a single way for network libraries to cooperate
23:34:25 <Bike> that's pretty cool
23:34:39 <kmc> people in the community argue that it's the only way this could be done and the only way to produce XXXTREME SPEEEED
23:34:44 <kmc> both of which are false
23:35:05 <kmc> GHC's IO manager is a totally different approach to solving the same problem
23:35:12 <kmc> but it is a really important problem and something most languages suck at
23:35:21 <kmc> speaking as someone who has repeatedly been bashing his head against this problem in Python
23:35:37 <elliott> well node.js wants people to program in continuation passing style and also the author is a moron
23:35:37 <kmc> (looks like Python 3 is also going to have a designated One True event loop library)
23:35:43 <elliott> which is imo enough for me to dismiss it as unfairly as i like
23:36:09 <Bike> liking things is so passé.
23:36:49 <Sgeo> " the risk of bringing the whole world to a halt with an accidental blocking call,"
23:36:57 <Sgeo> How could one accidentally do a blocking call?
23:37:04 <Sgeo> Why would there be blocking calls in the stdlib?
23:37:09 <Sgeo> Or maybe when calling foreign code?
23:37:34 <kmc> Sgeo: pure computation is one case
23:37:44 <Sgeo> Ah, good point
23:37:49 <kmc> and yeah, there are blocking calls in the stdlib for convenience when you don't need async
23:38:08 <kmc> the problem is that the async versions are materially less convenient
23:38:11 <kmc> because of callback hell
23:38:53 <elliott> i'm trying to find the reason i decided the nodejs guy was a moron but google isn't helping :(
23:38:56 <kmc> this is one reason to prefer lightweight threads + IO manager
23:39:21 <kmc> but 99.999% of the programming world has decided that threads are evil and stupid, because they are evil and stupid in python and ruby
23:39:52 <Sgeo> I don't get the IO manager thing
23:40:00 <kmc> what's that
23:40:16 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7ss6hi4O51qcc9h5o1_500.gif everything i know about node.js
23:40:26 <kmc> Bike: what
23:40:30 <Sgeo> Is it jsut the underlying implementation of IO so that it co-operates with lightweight threads?
23:40:32 <Sgeo> Or is there more to it?
23:40:39 <kmc> you're asking me what the GHC IO manager does?
23:40:53 <kmc> that's a big part of it yes
23:41:04 <elliott> Bike: i don't understand but i agree
23:41:38 <kmc> in order to make it cooperate with lightweight threads, you can't do blocking syscalls directly from your worker OS threads
23:41:49 <kmc> otherwise you block a whole OS thread for the sake of one lightweight thread
23:42:56 <kmc> so instead, a lightweight thread just registers in a central place the IO it wants done, and will be woken up when it's completed
23:43:07 <kmc> and that worker is free to run other lightweight threads in the meantime
23:43:43 <kmc> so now you just need an OS primitive for "wait for any of these IO operations to complete and lemme know about the first one that does"
23:43:53 <kmc> which is what select / poll / epoll / kqueue / etc. are for
23:44:25 <Sgeo> Is there a way, on Windows, to tell when a subprocess you created is requesting input?
23:44:51 <Sgeo> My conclusion back in 2007 or 2008 that the answer was "no" ended up changing the specs of PSOX
23:45:06 <kmc> anyway the idea of routing IO from thousands of concurrent requests through a single syscall is what makes node.js "webscale"
23:45:11 <kmc> but it's something GHC does for you as well
23:45:35 <kmc> also, as it happens, GHC /does/ have a way to make arbitrary blocking C calls from a lightweight thread
23:45:50 <kmc> but it's more heavyweight than you would want for your basic IO mechanism
23:46:09 <kmc> in the worst case it involves spinning up a new OS thread, if the call takes too long
23:47:57 <Sgeo> Hmm, wonder if node.js has things like IRC libraries and Reddit libraries
23:48:01 <Sgeo> That might make me want to try it
23:48:24 <kmc> hacker news library
23:48:39 <kmc> library for applying to Y combinator
23:49:11 <Bike> i thought node.js was a webserver why would it have irc why would it have reddit what would having reddit even mean
23:49:58 <monqy> request to reddit for the latest and greatest in cat macros and commit suicide
23:50:05 <kmc> it's a language implementation and a framework for writing network programs of all kinds
23:50:09 <kmc> often webservers, yes
23:50:20 <kmc> its role is comparable to CPython + Twisted, for example
23:50:28 <Bike> Does anyone use like, Javascript by itself, any more
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23:50:29 <kmc> or Ruby + EventMachine? don't actually know anything about EM
23:50:44 <kmc> Bike: what would that mean? JS by itself doesn't have much of a way to interact with the outside world
23:50:47 <elliott> well JS by itself can't really do anything
23:50:57 <Bike> well, JS plus DOM I guess?
23:51:06 <kmc> yes people do still write web applications using javascript
23:51:09 <monqy> js can do plenty of things like: be stupid, hecka stupid, oh god why would you ever use JS, i know i know
23:51:28 <Bike> i just remember moaning about having to learn jquery, and my much-better-at-webdev friend was like "uh you don't want to use js without it bro"
23:51:34 <kmc> jQuery is a library
23:51:35 <Sgeo> What's the equivalent of hashmaps in JS? Apparently using an object is a bad idea if keys are arbitrary
23:51:53 <kmc> Sgeo: the equivalent is to punch yourself in the crotch repeatedly
23:51:54 <Bike> it's a library but it does a lot of things.
23:52:14 <kmc> Bike: anyway yes, some people do write JS web client code without any libraries other than provided by browser
23:52:26 <kmc> typically generic things that are intended to work with jQuery or any of the many other similar libraries
23:52:29 <Sgeo> I sometimes write really simple things without libraries
23:52:30 <Bike> huh. i don't remember seeing any recently
23:52:33 <kmc> it's not /thatt/ bad
23:52:37 <kmc> if you can assume a recentish browser
23:52:40 <Bike> not that i usually look, i guess
23:52:45 <Sgeo> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16240872/addtwittertoreader.htm
23:52:59 <kmc> like, you wouldn't write a whole app without jQuery or whatever
23:53:07 <kmc> but you might write a small library intended to be used in lots of very different apps
23:53:31 <elliott> actually i wouldn't write js at all
23:53:44 <kmc> btw a lot of people are now using client side MVC frameworks
23:53:48 <kmc> which is a lot nicer
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23:53:57 <Sgeo> kmc, I guess that's what AngularJS is?
23:54:02 <kmc> with jQuery you do lots of imperative reaching into the DOM and changing this or that
23:54:14 <kmc> with an MVC framework you have dom elements tied to data structures and when the data changes, the DOM magically changes to match
23:54:20 <kmc> according to a declarative template kind of thingy
23:54:45 <kmc> Sgeo: http://www.devthought.com/2012/01/18/an-object-is-not-a-hash/ https://github.com/sid0/jsdict
23:54:57 <Sgeo> kmc, yeah, read that first thing a while ago
23:55:26 <Bike> now i'm wondering if objects are actually implemented with hashing. though i guess that might not make sense if there's lots of inheritance
23:56:19 <monqy> have you ever noticed nothing in javascript makes sense though
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00:05:14 <Sgeo> It makes me feel funny that AngularJS is some sort of pseudo-HTML
00:06:23 <kmc> looks a lot like any of a bajillion other HTML template languages
00:06:28 <Sgeo> Also, it looks like it wouldn't play nice with server-side things that attempt to insert plaintext and do escaping for you... hmm.... looks like XSS possibilties if you attempt to output AngularJS code from serverside
00:06:30 <Bike> some kind of......... markup language
00:06:52 <Sgeo> kmc, it's clientside though
00:07:12 <kmc> a) there are plenty of
00:07:18 <kmc> client side template systems
00:07:19 * Sgeo tends to think of HTML templating as a server-side thing
00:07:33 <kmc> b) in 2013 you need to get comfortable with the idea that the client is a VM running a program
00:09:14 <kmc> the traditional client/server webapp architecture kinda sucks anyway
00:09:29 <kmc> much nicer to implement an API on the server, which can be used by many clients
00:09:41 <kmc> and one of those clients happens to be a totally static blob of HTML/JS/CSS that you can serve up
00:10:34 <Sgeo> Doesn't work too well with people using NoScript though
00:11:46 <kmc> it's hard to write programs for someone who has disabled the ability of their computer to run programs
00:11:57 <kmc> anyway you can provide both
00:12:13 <kmc> the server-side backend of the NoScript app can be an API client like everything else
00:13:37 <kmc> the NoScript client and the rich web client will necessarily be pretty different
00:13:44 <kmc> because the latter can do a lot of things client-side and instantaneously
00:13:49 <kmc> that the former requires a server round trip for
00:14:03 <kmc> you end up implementing the functionality twice anyway, so might as well separate it nicely
00:15:46 <elliott> the need to write code for both "backends" there is just an artefact of how low-level the web is imo
00:16:00 <kmc> and also an Android backend in Java and an iPhone backend in ObjC
00:16:35 <kmc> er frontend whatever
00:16:42 <elliott> like there is no reason you couldn't have one codebase that adapts to how fast replies are expected to be
00:16:51 <kmc> elliott: if your backend is JS-like then you can at least share some code
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00:16:56 <kmc> elliott: yeah, that's kinda like how Meteor works
00:17:22 <kmc> everything looks like the web client code is directly accessing a database
00:17:31 <kmc> the client transparently caches part of that database
00:17:44 <elliott> in particular you want JS code generation for this
00:17:49 <elliott> but that's good because it means you get to not write JS
00:17:53 <kmc> if you want to force something to run server side, it's still the same language and same APIs
00:18:01 <kmc> also authentication works somehow but I don't know how
00:18:16 <kmc> also if something changes in the database, it automatically gets pushed out to those client caches & updates the DOM
00:18:35 <kmc> the last part is also something Quora's LiveNode does
00:18:42 <kmc> they have server side templating I think
00:18:52 <kmc> but whenever they render some HTML, they remember which SQL queries went into determining it
00:18:58 <kmc> and if those things change they push new HTML out to you
00:19:01 <elliott> another thing is that since page history APIs exist now, if a browser supports JS then there is basically no reason to ever do a full page load when you can avoid downloading all the surrounding site design crap and just insert the new page in place
00:19:09 <elliott> I had these thoughts when considering rewriting the esowiki's software
00:19:14 <elliott> which of course I bikeshedded to oblivion
00:20:53 <pikhq> elliott: Friend of mine is actually working on doing this for his company's website.
00:21:38 <pikhq> Because, for various reasons, he's been working pretty hard on making the thing load as quickly and smoothly as possible.
00:21:43 <elliott> the nice thing is that it should be easy to just send down a diff of the DOM or such rather than actually coding this update logic by hand
00:21:56 <elliott> but again you need a higher-level thing than what all web programming is done in to do this automatically
00:22:01 <pikhq> Oh, sorry, he's actually already done this.
00:25:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well it was actually going to try and be as much like mediawiki as possible
00:25:53 <elliott> just because i hate maintaining a mediawiki install that much
00:26:36 <elliott> it's literally like a major version behind
00:26:41 <elliott> because my "upgrade workflow" broke
00:27:02 <Bike> so we can't write a wiki cyclic tag interpreter in embedded lua is what you're saying
00:28:10 <elliott> wow guys do you remember beinga ble to type
00:28:56 <elliott> Bike: don't you remember being 12 and always using totally correct punctuation and shit
00:29:14 <Bike> i don't think i had a computer when i was twelve
00:29:47 <Bike> or if i did i was using it for Putt Putt or some shit
00:29:56 <monqy> putt putt at 12???
00:30:11 <Bike> also i don't remember the normal ages for games
00:30:12 <elliott> spy fox was the fucking greatest
00:30:57 <elliott> i'm glad we have consensus
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00:38:36 <hagb4rd> <elliott>the nice thing is that it should be easy to just send down a diff of the DOM or such rather than actually coding this update logic by hand <== well, i wouldn't send the DOM transformations but just update the ViewModel of a page.. as it's recommended by the MVVM design pattern. And for the transformations of the DOM you could _observe_ the client.side ViewModel! there are several JS libs providing observable
00:38:36 <hagb4rd> bindings sparing you a lot of eventhandling and backgroundworking.. like knockout.js
00:42:25 <hagb4rd> so you implement the domainn tier server side and provide a light webservice interface, which handles the communication between the ViewModel (client) and the BusinessModel (server).. i prefer JSON and REST rather than the haevier XML/SOAP stories
00:43:15 <oerjan> i'm sorry but this is _definitely_ too enterprisey to be on topic in this channel.
00:43:42 <Bike> enterprise lambda calculus
00:45:03 <kmc> i had to argue with someone who wanted to use "REST" to mean basically "not SOAP"
00:45:21 <kmc> for an API which, though lightweight and JSON-based, was not remotely RESTful
00:49:52 <hagb4rd> well, ok.. i guess you could argue on that (not splitting hairs on the definition of REST architecture) and reach consesus and understanding in single meeting
00:50:12 <hagb4rd> one must try hard to fail on that
00:52:48 <hagb4rd> i mean.. if you read the wiki article, and unterstand the few restrictions and ideas you're ready to go.. you probably will do, if you already have some experience on the SOA issue
00:52:54 <ion> kmc: Oh, wow.
00:53:02 <hagb4rd> and begin to love the less is more idea
00:53:23 * ion starts using “Haskell” to mean basically “not PHP”.
00:53:51 <Bike> haskell pipertext processor
00:55:06 <Bike> http://www.indiana.edu/~librcsd/etext/piper/text.html good poem, i recited it once
00:58:00 <elliott> only works with british pronunciation
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00:59:58 <oerjan> hm random page gave me http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk_talk:Turing_tarpit is that supposed to happen?
01:00:21 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
01:00:49 <oerjan> perhaps it actually counts that as in Main:
01:01:12 <elliott> see also http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Talk_talk:Turing_tarpit
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01:08:25 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: yes this will definitely be a language someday
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01:14:15 <FreeFull> (((((()))(()()))((()())((()))))((((()))(()))((())((()))))((((())))(((()()))))(((()())((()())))(((()()))(())))((((())((()())))((()()))))(((((()())))((()()))))((((()))))(()())(())(())(()()))
01:15:51 <Sgeo> <insert inane joke about Lisp here>
01:15:54 <monqy> wow freefull you know ursala too??
01:16:20 <zzo38> Is there some library in C to run Verilog programs and can be used with other programs?
01:16:45 * Sgeo wants a simple Scheme-like language on which it's convenient to build esolangs off of
01:16:54 <Sgeo> "Scheme like except has this function" for instance
01:17:12 <monqy> have you tried banana scheme
01:17:19 <monqy> alt. analogy to awful brainfuck derivatives
01:17:26 <monqy> alt. is this about trustfuck(trustscheme?)
01:17:44 <Sgeo> yes it's about trustfuck
01:18:25 <FreeFull> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Memfractal
01:18:28 <monqy> i forget, did you rename it to braintrust so you could put it on your resume? how did that go
01:18:53 <Bike> so just uh, write a scheme, i guess? it's pretty easy if you don't ccare about stupid things like numbers
01:18:56 <FreeFull> I think + is a bit underdefined
01:18:58 <Sgeo> I renamed it to Braintrust, it's not on resume, but during interview I mentioned that I had projects not listed on resume, he asked for one, and I mentioned Braintrust
01:19:34 <monqy> and how did that go
01:20:21 <Sgeo> I was hired, so I assume that went well
01:22:58 <Sgeo> I agree with FreeFull
01:23:07 <Sgeo> How do you access the copy? Entering the +?
01:23:12 <Sgeo> Where do you end up?
01:23:49 <Sgeo> I'm not even sure what the arrows mean/do
01:25:37 <Sgeo> I think a new Trust language should just have an easy way to make a quine
01:25:56 <oerjan> ah i recall memfractal. i believe it works in the obvious way hth.
01:26:32 <oerjan> as in, should be obvious if you know what a fractal is.
01:26:52 <zzo38> Sgeo: Maybe I didn't make it clear. The ^v<> are entry/exit points.
01:27:31 <Sgeo> ..Oh, I think I see
01:27:40 <Sgeo> When you enter a copy, you come out the side you just entered
01:27:50 <oerjan> also, i must stop assuming people share my idea of what things are obvious.
01:27:50 <Sgeo> So hit + from the right you enter the new copy from the <
01:28:02 <Sgeo> But where does the top level one come from/
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01:28:56 <oerjan> that does indeed seem unspecified
01:29:04 <zzo38> It is not indicated where the top level one come from; maybe it should be
01:29:06 <oerjan> by analogy with befunge, i'd assume >
01:31:53 <Sgeo> So, to use + as a memory cell, you make coming from (say) right the memory test, coming from top is 1 coming from bottom is 0
01:32:02 <Sgeo> And coming from left is regular program usage
01:32:13 <Sgeo> This allows for a bounded amount of memory
01:32:48 <Sgeo> I don't see a way to build any sort of addressing scheme, at least not immediately.... hm
01:32:59 <Sgeo> I see something, but not sure how many sides it requires
01:35:12 <Sgeo> Needs to be a prefix-free code.
01:35:19 <Sgeo> 0 means just use local memory
01:35:26 <Sgeo> erm, as in, return immediately.
01:36:27 <Sgeo> After that, a cell can get multiple bits by returning and storing the address so far, then the client asks for more
01:38:52 <Sgeo> We can send a + a 0, 1, or 2. (3 is assumed to be the start of the program)
01:40:18 <oerjan> oh hm i think maybe there _shouldn't_ be a particular direction of entering a program. instead the program input is a sequence of ^v<> 's that are used for entering, and the output is simultaneously the sequence of exits.
01:40:42 <oerjan> s/simultaneously/similarly/
01:41:25 <Sgeo> Wouldn't each piece of output be independent of each other
01:41:32 <Sgeo> Every thing in the input is a separate execution
01:41:40 <Sgeo> Although that does make it convenient to test things, I guess
01:41:43 <oerjan> no, because you remember the bits of the subprograms
01:42:47 <oerjan> alternatively you could encode input as the initial pattern of bits set somehow
01:44:29 <Sgeo> Ok, so address 0 is "What is your bit"
01:46:39 <oerjan> btw memfractal looks like it can be compiled, there are only a few possible control paths
01:47:11 <Sgeo> What's the difference between a compiler and an interpreter glued to some input?
01:47:49 <Sgeo> Because my implementation for my 'compiled' language is really an interpreter glued to some input
01:47:54 <oerjan> by "compiled" i mean that you don't have to work directly on the 2-dimensional program.
01:48:14 <oerjan> since it doesn't actually change
01:50:26 <Sgeo> I'm trying to think how you could compile a Boolfuck-like thing to Memfractal
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01:50:48 <Sgeo> Obvious is where the memory for the tape comes from. Not obvious is where each instruction gets encoded
01:51:01 <oerjan> it seems tricky to get room for the [] flow control
01:51:54 <oerjan> on the one hand you can have as many + as you want, on the other they all must work identically
01:52:16 <Sgeo> You can give input to a +
01:52:25 <Sgeo> So maybe the input encodes whether to... do... something
01:55:44 <oerjan> you can also hopefully have some of the +'s be used only for added local state for the surrounding one
01:56:46 <oerjan> oh, also memfractal is reversible, this tends to awkwardize things.
01:57:53 <oerjan> (i don't think we ever found out how to use backflip in a convenient way, ais523's derivatives notwithstanding)
01:58:59 <Sgeo> I should look at that
02:01:16 <oerjan> backflip is really elegant, yet incomprehensible
02:02:12 <Sgeo> I love ambiguous acronyms.
02:03:14 <oerjan> indeed not. but it still might have an intuitive way of doing computation which we haven't found yet, and which could be TC if you say allowed infinite setup
02:05:33 <Sgeo> I don't understand why it doesn't have infinite loops
02:06:03 <Sgeo> Oh, guess can't put an always-reflecting mirror at the entrance, and... it will always end up at the entrance if not halted elsewhere?
02:08:55 <oerjan> it's a general property of any reversible finite state system that it cannot go into an infinite loop unless it started in it
02:08:57 <Sgeo> Maybe we should look for a storage device in Memfractal
02:09:18 <Sgeo> Similar to ABCDXYZ
02:10:02 <oerjan> maybe. i felt that the control flow was the real problem in backflip.
02:10:07 <Sgeo> Hmm, no, any device would have to comprise most of the program
02:10:27 <Sgeo> Most you could do was say "Ok, here's the section of the program where you can do your own unique stuff"
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02:17:06 <oerjan> one property of memfractal that doesn't have an analogue in backflip is that if you leave a block by the same exit that you entered, you have to retrace your steps backwards until you hit that block again
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02:23:38 <oerjan> this means that for useful computation, you _never_ want to leave a block by the same exit the first time
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02:59:01 <Sgeo> Reversible computing both interests and confuses me
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03:07:57 * Sgeo wonders if Phantom_Hoover would like The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi
03:09:01 <Sgeo> Although "the one in the school" seems like it's probably ambiguous
03:09:05 <Sgeo> But it is in a school
03:09:09 <Sgeo> Except when it isn't, I guess
03:09:32 <pikhq> Being set in a school is so common for anime it's practically cliche.
03:09:42 <Bike> definitely not practically
03:09:58 <Bike> *use-mention distinction
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03:33:37 * Sgeo wonders if PMMM is on crunchyroll
03:36:51 <Fiora> http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=torrentinfo&tid=386505
03:38:36 <elliott> #esoteric's secret quest to cram as much logged illegality into 24 hours as possible
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03:48:35 <Bike> kinda want to take salvia while watching pirated medukas now
03:49:08 <elliott> wouldn't it help to pick an actually illegal drug
03:49:11 <elliott> or is salvia illegal where you are
03:52:03 <Bike> you know i'm not sure
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03:52:20 <Bike> maybe i could just get some child porn and burn it and get high off the ashes mixed with salvia?
03:54:43 <elliott> you could try killing someone also
03:55:14 <pikhq> I couldn't even smoke marijuana illegally.
03:57:16 <kmc> why's that
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03:57:51 <pikhq> Guess I'll have to settle for blackjack and hookers.
04:01:47 <kmc> why did i think you were in finland
04:01:52 <kmc> i know why
04:02:09 <kmc> is it legal to buy and sell as well?
04:02:57 <Bike> if it's like washington there's a whole licensed dispensary system
04:03:17 <Bike> not sure how that works since it's still federally illegal, but whatever
04:04:07 <elliott> guys i think we scared zzo away
04:04:13 <pikhq> kmc: It's not *yet* legal to buy and sell, but that's a matter of the regulations pending.
04:04:45 <kmc> CO has had medical marijuana for a while.... maybe those same dispensaries will start selling to the general public?
04:04:57 <pikhq> Basically, the state has a few months to decide precisely how to regulate recreational marijuana.
04:05:03 <kmc> and yeah it's federally illegal, and in CA as well, and the various other states with MMJ
04:05:25 <kmc> sometimes the feds get in a mood to go busting dispensaries and sometimes they stay away
04:05:32 <Bike> like what does that mean though, the DEA just.. oh, well, okay
04:05:35 <kmc> medical michael jackson
04:05:36 <Bike> good legal system we have
04:06:03 <kmc> Bike: the great thing about a country where everything is illegal is that the actual power of the law is vested not in legislatures or judges but in enforcement agencies and prosecutors
04:06:23 <kmc> so it's all about, did you piss someone off, do they want to make an example of you
04:06:48 <Bike> it's still weird to think about
04:07:06 <kmc> i can't remember the most recent official word from obama regarding medical marijuana as an enforcement priority
04:07:20 <kmc> i think they decided to lay off but not sure
04:07:40 <kmc> with legalization in WA and CO, they might crack down to prove a point there
04:07:42 <elliott> obama more like... maybebama
04:07:47 <kmc> power is sort of, use it or lose it
04:08:07 <Bike> what would even be the point? insofar as the drug war even has a point it's screaming about cartels, which is hardly relevant to growing your own
04:08:11 <Bike> am i just not cynical enough
04:09:05 <kmc> the drug war exists to perpetuate the organizations which prosecute it
04:09:12 <kmc> militarized police, the DEA, the prison system
04:09:19 <kmc> and the cartels
04:09:36 <Bike> well, that just makes me wonder why it started
04:09:40 <Bike> can i just blame reagan
04:09:53 <kmc> partially but marijuana was banned long before him
04:10:00 <kmc> it started as a moral panic against the mexicans and the negro jazz musicians
04:10:02 <Bike> those damn jazzists
04:10:06 <elliott> the drug war actually only exists to keep people distracted from chemtrails
04:10:14 <elliott> (im not being serious please dont use this against me in the future)
04:10:21 <kmc> that's why it's called "marijuana" in the USA and "cannabis" everywhere else
04:10:22 <Bike> 420 blaze the towers?
04:10:31 <Bike> kmc: oh damn, for real
04:10:52 <kmc> in fact I'm told that when the drug was banned, very few people understood that this devil weed "marijuana" was the same ordinary hemp crop that every farmer had growing in their fields
04:11:36 <Bike> you know what's weird about hemp? they make milk out of it. that's weird
04:11:58 <shachaf> do they call it hilk or helk
04:12:15 <Bike> helk, it's a new age thing
04:12:36 <shachaf> I ain't a hilk! / I'm a gnu.
04:12:54 <shachaf> I hain't a hilk! / I'm a gnu.
04:13:01 <shachaf> I hain't a helk! / I'm a gnu.
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04:16:33 <ion> I’d like to interject for just a moment.
04:25:10 <kmc> Bike: you can make anything out of hemp and sell it to hippies and wannabe hippie-yuppies
04:25:37 <Bike> yeah, but i wouldn't know about it if it didn't show up at the food bank of all places.
04:32:01 <kmc> that is odd
04:32:22 <kmc> unfortunately # wannabe hippie-yuppies >> # hippies these days :(
04:32:30 <Bike> people donate the weirdest shit, though.
04:33:00 <Bike> sure, i have a tub of frozen steak. no you can't ask me why or why it's in a tub. no i don't need a receipt you don't need my name. bye!
04:35:07 <kmc> did you process donations at a food bank?
04:35:20 <Bike> the foodbank is being clandestinely used by the salvia cartles, who freeze it into meat
04:35:24 <Bike> yeah, we get donations all the time.
04:35:58 <Bike> obviously people's donations are a pretty minor part of what we give out though. Plus it's usually bizarre or way out of date.
04:36:21 <Sgeo> Is it reasonable to reject a gaming computer CPU if it doesn't have VT-x because I want virtualization just as a toy?
04:36:31 <kmc> virtualization is fucking useful
04:36:44 <kmc> which processors don't have it? aren't they really low-end anyway?
04:36:47 <Sgeo> But I don't have a use for it other than messing around
04:36:51 <Fiora> The super high end unlocked ones don't have it either, I think
04:36:53 <Fiora> market segmentation thing
04:36:56 <pikhq> No, but it's reasonable to reject a gaming computer CPU for not having VT-x because *seriously what fucking chip are you buying, a Dorito?*
04:37:10 <Sgeo> Ok, so they mostly all have it, ok
04:37:15 <kmc> you could back up your whole hard drive on a floppy diskette / you're the biggest joke on the internet
04:37:22 <Fiora> http://www.neowin.net/images/uploaded/haswell_cpu_lineup.jpg like I saw this the other day
04:37:28 * pikhq nods sagely at kmc
04:37:30 <Sgeo> My computer from 2001 didn't have VT-x I think
04:37:31 <Fiora> the "K" CPUs are missing "VT-d"
04:37:40 <Sgeo> I used it until maybe 2007 or so
04:37:42 <pikhq> You have your own newsgroup / alt.total.luser
04:37:50 <kmc> VT-d is different though
04:38:08 <kmc> i think it's the IOMMU virtualization thing
04:38:10 <Sgeo> I am vaguely thinking of putting XenClient on the machine and putting OSes on top of that
04:38:15 <Fiora> they're different? @_@ oh geez
04:38:15 <kmc> lets you route a physical ethernet card to a VM, for example
04:38:46 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure you can do that without it, it's just more CPU-intensive.
04:38:50 <Sgeo> Windows for games and Linux for everything else, without rebooting to switch between them
04:38:51 <pikhq> Might also need Xen.
04:38:56 <kmc> yeah, and/or less secure
04:38:57 <Bike> is vt-x in cpuinfo somewhere, i want to see how hard i lack it
04:39:02 <kmc> it's called vmx i think
04:39:20 <pikhq> Bike: Is your computer 4 years old or newer?
04:39:31 <kmc> AMD's is called svm
04:39:35 <pikhq> If so, is your computer using an Atom CPU?
04:39:37 <Bike> probably not, but it's also an Atom
04:39:56 <Bike> i suspect one of the processors is in fact a dorito.
04:40:00 <Bike> one of the cores*
04:40:06 <Fiora> that must be the uncore
04:40:20 <pikhq> Yeah, the Atom doesn't have it I don't think.
04:40:21 <kmc> haunted 'ghost cores'
04:40:35 <kmc> brutally killed with a laser at the factory, they haunt your data forevermore
04:41:22 <Fiora> intel cpus are powered by the ghosts of murdered silicon -- buy amd!
04:42:12 <Bike> now i want a horror film called "Fear Uncertainty and Doubt"
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04:42:26 <kmc> Fear Uncertainity and Doubt in Las Vegas
04:42:45 <Bike> subtitled The Microsoft Story
04:42:49 <Sgeo> Ooh there's such a thing as All-In-One computers
04:42:50 <Bike> about Ballmer's adventures while very high
04:42:56 <Sgeo> Maybe there's enough room here for one of those
04:43:43 <pikhq> Sgeo: Yeah, um, computers have gotten kinda crazy lately.
04:43:47 <kmc> Sgeo: that's with monitor built in?
04:43:52 <Sgeo> kmc, I think so
04:44:05 <Sgeo> Why does /r/buildapc seem to have a Microcenter fetish?
04:44:14 <kmc> i'm suspicious of those
04:44:29 <pikhq> You can actually get really tiny and cheap x86 systems these days.
04:44:35 <pikhq> Yay, $50 Atom boards.
04:44:45 <kmc> you can get a 'nettop' or 'booksize' computer and a separate monitor and it'll take up the same space, plus you can upgrade one or the other
04:44:48 <kmc> maybe the specs are worse though
04:45:02 <pikhq> Might not matter though.
04:45:17 <kmc> do the all-in-one machines actually have good monitors
04:45:35 <kmc> meh i'm spoiled monitor-wise though
04:45:38 <kmc> probably fine
04:46:05 * Sgeo wonders if 3d monitors are worth it
04:46:33 <kmc> jesus that's a thing now? i mean of course it is, but still
04:47:14 <pikhq> In more words, no no no no no.
04:47:37 <Sgeo> red-cyan glasses suck, cross-eyed sucks
04:47:56 <Sgeo> Also maybe the monitor will make 3d games that wouldn't particularly support that kind of thing support it?
04:48:22 <Sgeo> My normal glasses are like 3d glasses for reality...
04:49:44 <kmc> that's the most stonertastic thing that's been said here in a while
04:51:50 <Sgeo> They are! They're not necessary for me to see what's going on, they just make things look nicer and pop out
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05:03:18 <kmc> that's how it is for me sort of
05:03:25 <kmc> also needed for reading far away things
05:05:01 <Fiora> I need mine for not being blind
05:05:47 <pikhq> Stuff's kinda fuzzy but I can *see* without glasses.
05:05:57 <pikhq> But I can't read my monitor without them.
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05:07:29 <zzo38> Is it possible to design a computer with CF cards?
05:07:41 <zzo38> Somebody said it isn't.
05:08:03 <pikhq> Why wouldn't it be possible?
05:08:27 <kmc> it's quite easy -- CF and PATA are compatible electrically
05:08:30 <kmc> all you need is a pin adapter
05:08:40 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, it is what I thought.
05:08:47 <kmc> although some CF cards can't do DMA and are slow
05:08:58 <kmc> that was the ill fate of my attempt to have an SSD laptop in 2006 this way
05:09:17 <zzo38> What is SSD laptop?
05:09:25 <kmc> a laptop with an SSD instead of a hard drive
05:09:26 <pikhq> You can go crazier still.
05:09:48 <pikhq> PATA is also electrically compatible with ISA.
05:09:50 <zzo38> What is "SSD", though?
05:10:54 <zzo38> When I am designing the computer, I intend to have both CompactFlash and hard drives, as well as optical drive.
05:11:06 <pikhq> Solid state drive.
05:11:08 <kmc> "solid state drive"
05:11:39 <kmc> typically, a SATA storage device using flash memory, which has the same form factor as a laptop hard drive and is fast enough to be one's primary / boot disk
05:11:44 <kmc> indeed much much faster than spinny disks
05:12:42 <Sgeo> My right eye has good vision but my left eye gets fuzzy at distance even short distances
05:12:47 <kmc> so, say, an SD card would not get called an SSD, even though you could run your whole system off of it, and it might be fast
05:12:51 <pikhq> Mine are equally bad.
05:12:58 <kmc> pikhq: huh, I didn't know it's ISA compatible, weird / cool
05:13:38 <elliott> and i've been staring at computer screens since i was 3
05:13:38 <kmc> hm so how hard is it to talk to a PATA hard drive from an Arduino or whatever? probably actually fairly easy
05:13:44 <zzo38> I need glasses for far away
05:13:46 <pikhq> Yeah. The history of the bus is literally just that Western Digital moved the controller board to the bottom of the hard drive.
05:13:52 <Bike> indeed elliott, let us mock the inferior race
05:13:58 <kmc> yeah this has been done
05:14:01 <zzo38> Yes, we'all weird, including you
05:14:18 <kmc> you all saw http://dmitry.gr/index.php?r=05.Projects&proj=07.%20Linux%20on%208bit right
05:14:47 <kmc> Linux running [*] on an ATmega1284
05:15:04 <Bike> what an exciting footnote that must be.
05:15:07 <zzo38> But I make the design much simpler so that it does not have to load so much from the hard disk to boot, using BIOS to boot, mostly, rather than hard disk.
05:15:08 <elliott> Bike: the race of bad eye people
05:15:25 <zzo38> And even then you don't need as many files as Windows or Linux, so it is faster due to that, too.
05:15:30 <Bike> i'm pretty sure eugenicists have wanted them all to die at some point and that's basically what makes you a "race" so!
05:15:36 <elliott> i guess my eyesight will probably go bad sometime
05:15:54 <Bike> better get our superiority in now
05:16:09 <zzo38> Bike: Is that why they call it the "human race"?
05:16:11 <elliott> Bike: do bicycles even have glasses
05:16:30 <Bike> elliott: uh yes how do you think we pick up hipsters
05:16:41 <Bike> zzo38: eugenicists tend to be somewhat misanthropic, yes.
05:16:57 <elliott> Bike: why would you want to!!
05:17:21 <Bike> where do you think bikes get our sustenance? just pedaling? i need meat.
05:18:40 <zzo38> Well, my opinion is that human dignity is not the most important things in the universe; how does that make me?
05:19:37 <Bike> That's not enough information to determine if you're misanthropic.
05:19:45 <zzo38> I didn't think so.
05:19:58 <Bike> Maybe you don't think human dignity is that important but you still think humans are pretty cool. Maybe you'd still have a beer with us sometime or shoot the shit.
05:20:37 <zzo38> Actually I don't drink alcohol, and I don't know what "shoot the shit" is.
05:20:53 <zzo38> But I kind of understand you, a little bit.
05:21:02 <Bike> Shoot the shit, you know. Chill. Hang.
05:21:13 <Bike> Do you like moseying?
05:21:40 <kmc> http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/05/24
05:21:49 <Bike> We cool, zzo38. We cool.
05:23:39 <lambdabot> *** "mosey" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
05:23:39 <lambdabot> v 1: walk leisurely [syn: {amble}, {mosey}]
05:23:51 <shachaf> is leisurely an adj. or an adv.
05:23:56 <zzo38> Well, I found it in Wiktionary, the same things
05:24:07 <lambdabot> *** "leisurely" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
05:24:07 <lambdabot> adv 1: in an unhurried way or at one's convenience; "read the
05:24:07 <lambdabot> manual at your leisure"; "he traveled leisurely" [syn:
05:24:11 <lambdabot> adj 1: not hurried or forced; "an easy walk around the block";
05:24:13 <lambdabot> "at a leisurely (or easygoing) pace" [syn: {easy},
05:24:27 <Bike> related: http://media.tumblr.com/ca94f121e29dfdf9d2a4ea79ee369ffd/tumblr_inline_mjxbylJCb91qz4rgp.png
05:24:42 <shachaf> Bike: are you in vancouver or something
05:24:50 <lambdabot> *** "literally" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
05:24:50 <lambdabot> adv 1: in a literal sense; "literally translated"; "he said so
05:24:50 <lambdabot> 2: (intensifier before a figurative expression) without
05:24:52 <lambdabot> exaggeration; "our eyes were literally pinned to TV during
05:24:56 <Bike> I live in the woods north of Vancouver.
05:25:09 <Bike> There are bears.
05:25:17 <kmc> yay autoantonyms
05:25:21 <shachaf> i thought you were a student at uw
05:25:45 <shachaf> Does "autoantonym" also mean "a word which isn't an antonym of itself"?
05:25:59 <Bike> ...oh, well done
05:26:27 <shachaf> Bike: did you read "breakfast of champions""
05:26:42 <shachaf> @ask monqy for forgiveness
05:28:04 <kmc> shachaf: ur quotes mismatched
05:28:25 <shachaf> kmc: its "alrigt"" i already asked monqy for forgiveness
05:28:42 <kmc> is that how this game is played
05:28:42 <Bike> oh god i talked while his quote was open
05:28:48 <Bike> now i'm going to be quoted forever :(
05:31:18 <kmc> double secret probation
05:32:08 <shachaf> today i bought a bunch of vonnebukks
05:33:17 <shachaf> in fac t i bought too many??
05:33:24 <shachaf> maybe ill never read them all
05:37:00 <Bike> did you buy timequake i bet you did
05:37:33 <shachaf> i bought the books that the used bookstore in town had
05:40:17 <elliott> i don't get it Bike. explain.
05:40:23 <Sgeo> Suppose you're severely ill. There's a medical procedure that has a very small chance of saving your life. You are a registered organ donor. If you attempt the procedure and die anyway, your organs will not be usable for organ donation. What do you do?
05:43:11 <Sgeo> But there is an actual situation this could be considered analogous to
05:43:25 <Bike> do you have good reason to believe that someone's response would be indicative of their behavior
05:43:29 <Sgeo> Scratch that. Yes, I am dying, just like everyone else who currently exists.
05:43:45 <kmc> i have a meta-question: how many third world children are going to die of preventable disease while we discuss this moral hypothetical
05:44:23 <Bike> kmc you colonialist! gosh.
05:44:41 <kmc> yeah it's just my cultural imperialist viewpoint that children shouldn't die by shitting themselves inside out
05:47:26 <kmc> fuck, I have 98.4% of Time Trumpet downloaded and it's been stuck there for 2 days
05:48:04 <elliott> the last 1.6% of the time trumpet is inaccessible to mere mortals.
05:48:06 <elliott> you have to find it for yourself
05:48:25 <Sgeo> It was intended to be analogous to cryonics
05:48:34 <Bike> oh for god's sake dude.
05:48:56 <shachaf> "oopse did i just inform Sgeo of that channel"
05:49:12 <Bike> that actually exists doesn't it oh no
05:52:30 <zzo38> I think people should die if they want to do so (but think of it first; there is no going back)
05:52:53 <Bike> He probably thought about it a lot.
05:52:59 <zzo38> shachaf: Irrelevant.
05:54:29 <Sgeo> zzo38, what of a person who currently wants to die but if they take a pill every day they stop wanting to die?
05:54:29 <zzo38> That question is irrelevant.
05:54:49 <shachaf> zzo38: WHAT IF YOU'RE IRRELEVANT............>>>>>!!!!!!!!!
05:55:05 <zzo38> Sgeo: It depends on that person, I guess.
05:55:54 <Sgeo> Uh. Is there a source that is NOT Wikipedia or Wikipedia derived for finding out when a song was released
05:56:10 <Bike> good luck finding anything at all not wikipedia derived, nowadays
05:56:24 <shachaf> before 2001 people literally had no idea when songs were released
05:56:26 <Bike> also you know what also involves taking a pill and death? That short story by Smullyan about epiphenomenalism. Way better.
05:56:51 <Sgeo> Because this Wikipedia page about this song that I thought I heard in 1998 claims it was released in 2000
05:56:51 <shachaf> Bike: An Unfortunate Dualist?
05:57:01 <shachaf> @google an unfortunate dualist
05:57:03 <lambdabot> http://themindi.blogspot.com/2007/02/chapter-23-unfortunate-dualist.html
05:57:06 <Bike> yes, that one.
05:57:16 <elliott> what is it with everyone in here and fucking smullyan
05:57:21 <Bike> Sgeo: Might be another version or a cover or something.
05:57:23 <zzo38> I do think "Suppose you're severely ill. There's a medical procedure that..." is up to their individual choice, but I would want to know an estimate of the choice, what things I was intending to do otherwise, my age, its effect on non-human lifeforms and on the environment in general, etc.
05:57:45 <Bike> elliott: have you seen his youtube videos they're so dumb how could anybody not like him
05:57:55 <zzo38> I don't have the book written by Smullyan but I was wanting to have them.
05:58:06 <shachaf> elliott: i never! it's entirely platonic
05:58:26 <Bike> elliott: somehow, no.
05:58:38 <Bike> I think he's like 997 though.
05:59:22 <shachaf> lexande went to a Smullyan talk this year or something.
06:00:51 <Sgeo> Bike, that only works with a belief that the soul does not have write access to the brain
06:01:14 <Sgeo> If the soul had write access to the brain, the dualist could know that he no longer has a soul
06:01:43 <Bike> if the soul has write access to the brain then epiphenomenalism is false
06:01:59 <Bike> so, yes, it does assume that, that is the point.
06:02:27 <elliott> um Bike. i think you'll find nothing has a point.
06:03:10 <zzo38> elliott: Even a circle with one point missing?
06:03:52 <zzo38> Well, I don't believe in Cartesian dualism; I don't think it makes sense.
06:04:06 <Sgeo> Funny, that story doesn't mention epiphenominalism, just dualism
06:04:29 <Bike> oh, maybe i remember it from smullyan's commentary or something.
06:04:45 <Sgeo> I didn't read past the bolded Reflections
06:05:39 <zzo38> I believe in neutral monism, mostly.
06:05:48 <shachaf> I like how you can make a two-dimensional bounded shape which is congruent to a subset of itself.
06:06:32 <shachaf> Maybe I should say "proper subset".
06:06:36 <Bike> "What distinguishes neutral monism from its better known monistic rivals is the claim that the intrinsic nature of ultimate reality is neither mental nor physical." wow i suck at metaphysics though
06:07:09 <zzo38> I don't agree with all kinds of neutral monism, though; just in general.
06:08:41 <zzo38> Neutral monism in general is, mental and physical are two ways of organizing some "higher things" (I am kind of paraphrasing Wikipedia).
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06:11:25 <zzo38> I don't think so??
06:11:54 <shachaf> if i only said things which i think so would i even say anything
06:12:00 <Bike> i wonder if someday i will care about metaphysics agagin.
06:13:05 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, yes, you can think of things other than only some things, too; it is good to consider and to discuss it and to figure it out.
06:13:42 <elliott> Bike more like take a hike
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06:14:35 <shachaf> Bike more like ignore elliott he's mean to everyone we all think you're like cool and stuffike
06:15:25 <Bike> i see what you're doing you're playing good cop bad cop
06:15:55 <shachaf> you should come to #haskell where we play good op bad op
06:16:00 <shachaf> except we're both pretty bad at it
06:16:27 <elliott> i've banned two more people than shachaf
06:16:41 <shachaf> elliott is the macbeth of #haskell and i am the hamlet
06:16:42 <Fiora> what mean things are you sayig about elliott :<
06:16:55 <Bike> so who's your uncle
06:16:57 <shachaf> Fiora: elliott is the mean one
06:17:04 <Bike> and... well i don't know macbeth really
06:17:14 <Bike> i think he kills everyone though. that seems elliotty.
06:17:20 <zzo38> Even, this book and that book, are two ways to organize the state of physical matter, which it makes up, even if the books are otherwise identical.
06:17:57 <shachaf> wait am i thinking of macbeth or some other shakespeare person
06:18:54 <elliott> if i am macbeth who is Bike
06:19:09 <Bike> Probably my favorite shakespeare character, Osric.
06:19:30 <Bike> No I want to be played by Robin Williams.
06:19:39 <shachaf> you have to be played by shachaf
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06:20:20 <elliott> pretty sure Bike has to be played by a bicycle.
06:20:20 <Bike> if you're a shakespeare character who's an actor you must be one of the actors in the play Hamlet watches.
06:20:30 <shachaf> Bike can be rosencrantz and guildenstern
06:20:44 <Bike> elliott: In shakespeare's time all the chicks were played by men. This extends to the bicycles. The bicycles are also played by men.
06:20:59 <Bike> All the props are men too.
06:21:08 <Bike> The play is a circus of writhing male flesh.
06:21:28 <shachaf> you got a problem with that...............................
06:23:10 <Fiora> I don't think I'd be a very good actor
06:23:25 <Bike> I don't believe Shakespearian scholarship is advanced enough to ask that question, shachaf.
06:23:25 <Bike> But yes elliott. The original globe theater was made of peasants.
06:23:25 <tswett> : FREE 0 OVER BLOCKFREE! DUP RIGHTBLOCK@ DUP IF DUP BLOCKFREE@ IF DUP RIGHTBLOCK@ ROT 2DUP RIGHTBLOCK! SWAP 2DUP LEFTBLOCK! DROP DUP BLOCKSIZE@ ROT DUP BLOCKSIZE ROT 4 CELLS + + ROT SWAP OVER BLOCKSIZE! DROP THEN THEN (...)
06:23:25 <shachaf> is that like the woman who cooks carrots and peas in the same pot
06:23:25 <tswett> I can read every single one of those words.
06:23:26 <Bike> Forth looks very exciting.
06:23:38 <shachaf> Fiora: That's OK, you're not playing an actor.
06:24:57 * Fiora pokes shachaf's nose
06:24:57 <zzo38> If I make the computer, it will be including Forth. Also including BASIC, since many programs in books are written in BASIC.
06:25:08 <elliott> Bike: don't you mean pheasanrs
06:31:36 <shachaf> Fiora: I'm not a very good actor either, I just play one on stage.
06:32:06 <kmc> fungot should have a mode to generate forth programs
06:32:07 <fungot> kmc: i don't disagree that professors tend to guard their time. i just found.
06:32:54 <shachaf> fungot is a ""serial entrepreneur"
06:32:55 <fungot> shachaf: killer annotated 8676 with " rambaby " lamer" sucks!" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord what do you have
06:33:11 <tswett> http://pastie.org/6635890 - comments removed because comments are lame.
06:33:40 <shachaf> tswett: uhh fungot just told you to use http://paste.lisp.org/
06:33:40 <fungot> shachaf: at least it's very expensive) workaround to that, but as those fields are used a lot of this stuff
06:34:11 <tswett> Yeah, well, I don't listen to anything fungot says, because fungot is made of one really long spaghetti noodle.
06:34:12 <fungot> tswett: in that it doesn't correspond in some 1:1 way to some known enumeration type correct? its like: if: a b
06:34:32 <Bike> wow i don't think i've ever seen forth long enough to indent before
06:34:35 <tswett> At first I didn't realize that was fungot speaking, and so I tried to understand what he was saying.
06:34:36 <fungot> tswett: sure, understood to mean unzip and look at these... barbarians?? oh, yeh!! first you need to
06:35:46 <Bike> http://paste.lisp.org/display/136107
06:35:49 <fungot> shachaf: s/ udded/ fnord something like this with good printing formatting will work. he just pointed out
06:38:35 <tswett> Whoops, I forgot. FREE isn't supposed to leave anything behind.
06:40:13 <tswett> Except freedom, of course.
06:46:08 <shachaf> `learn ngevd is not random
06:46:36 <HackEgo> wisdom/gaszpacho \ wisdom/szoup
06:46:43 <HackEgo> A szoup a szilárd tápszereknek híg alakban való elkészítése a célból, hogy könnyebben emészthetők legyenek; a hígító anyag a viz, mely feloldja s magába veszi a tápanyag legértékesebb részeit.
06:46:47 <HackEgo> gaszpacho is a polish soup, traditionally szerved cold for hot szummer days
06:47:16 <HackEgo> N8+F)(_5lt&*Lyle<nU٫rdq(OxRSufnv#\!(mQCǒnZݶSILpZ?9rhd¸g&x<׳KWiB!D|dKԍv#4-*r(bvjB:^^49*YCpYQ3ef~<mdPO{EQn&T␆@أ9qlF̚]Czƕ̍&pEN: \ |ZF,ˑ$[z۠#}nhLOC \ 1e].b,
06:48:08 <shachaf> `learn ngevd more like ein gedi
06:56:02 <zzo38> Modern computer designs are too stupid. Do you think so?
06:58:24 <Bike> they work pretty well
06:59:07 <zzo38> They work, but that is not good enough.
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07:06:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: erflist: not found
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07:24:47 <Sgeo> I need to eat :(:(
07:25:16 * Fiora gives Sgeo chocolate
07:25:44 <Sgeo> Long story short, there was a fly in the pasta I prepared so I threw it out. Turns out that was the last bag of pasta afaict
07:31:52 <oklopol> why throw away a good fly?
07:32:12 <oklopol> why not just, you know, eat it?
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07:37:16 <zzo38> Do you like to eat it? (Maybe you can, if you want to.)
07:38:31 <Sgeo> I meant that I threw the pasta away
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07:45:46 <tswett> All right, so, here's my malloc function:
07:46:58 -!- monqy has joined.
07:48:08 <tswett> : MALLOC >R 0 0 HEAP @ BEGIN DUP BLOCKSIZE@ DUP R@ >= IF ROT 2DUP > IF DROP DUP THEN -ROT THEN DROP DUP INVERT UNTIL DROP DROP SWAP DUP INVERT IF DROP DROP RDROP 0 EXIT THEN 0 OVER BLOCKFREE! SWAP DUP R@ 4 CELLS + > IF OVER R@ 4 CELLS + + ROT 2DUP SWAP LEFTBLOCK! DUP RIGHTBLOCK@ ROT 2DUP RIGHTBLOCK! >R ROT R> SWAP R@ - 4 CELLS - OVER BLOCKSIZE! 0 OVER BLOCKFREE! 2DUP SWAP LEFTBLOCK! NIP SWAP R@ OVER BLOCKSIZE! 2DUP RIGHTBLOCK! NIP ELSE DROP THEN 4
07:48:41 <zzo38> You should probably write it in separate lines, and possibly factor into multiple blocks, though
07:48:58 <tswett> http://pastie.org/6636240
07:54:09 <Sgeo> My current computer does not supprt VT-x
07:56:49 <fizzie> They keep doing "market segmentation" with that thing.
07:57:00 <zzo38> Most of it is good; but I still think the definition of MALLOC is too long, and it might help to have comments in the definition of MALLOC as well. That definition of MALLOC would not fit on a single page in BBL Forth.
07:58:31 <fizzie> In related news, the cpuinfo "flags" field is getting kind of ridiculous. This computer, for example, supports fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe syscall nx rdtscp lm constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts rep_good nopl xtopology nonstop_tsc aperfmperf pni pclmulqdq dtes64 monitor ds_cpl vmx smx est tm2 ssse3 cx16 ...
07:58:37 <fizzie> ... xtpr pdcm pcid sse4_1 sse4_2 x2apic popcnt tsc_deadline_timer aes xsave avx f16c rdrand lahf_lm ida arat epb xsaveopt pln pts dtherm tpr_shadow vnmi flexpriority ept vpid fsgsbase smep erms.
07:58:59 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes, modern computers designs are too stupid.
08:01:35 <Jafet> fizzie: you should move to a less confusing market segment.
08:04:08 <Sgeo> errr.... what happened to NxTop
08:04:21 <Sgeo> XenClient ate it apparently
08:05:42 <tswett> zzo38: yeah. The original version has comments, but I removed them for #esoteric's benefit.
08:06:44 <tswett> Aw man. My definition turned out to be too long to fit in one command.
08:07:18 <zzo38> MALLOC is probably the only one there that needs to have comments, as far as I can see, but it is OK to put comments on the other ones too.
08:08:12 <tswett> I find the definition of FREE to be really hard to read *with* a comment every other line.
08:09:11 <zzo38> tswett: Yes, I said, only MALLOC in that code needs comments; FREE doesn't need comments.
08:11:57 <tswett> Here's the version with all the comments: http://pastie.org/6636212
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08:55:41 <Sgeo> I found some pasta
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09:43:37 <Sgeo> Oh god there's another subreddit for computer hardware. And apparently its opinions are distinctly different from buildapc's opinions. I don't know which to trust now
09:44:30 <Taneb> Trust Adam Hart-Davis
09:46:21 <Sgeo> "Tldr bapc is for cutting costs and gapc is for being extravagant "
09:47:01 <Taneb> So, it depends on your budget
09:47:15 <Taneb> Based on what I know about your economic position, I'd go for bapc
09:57:11 <ThatOtherPerson> One of my classmates turned a programming assignment in AS A WORD DOCUMENT
09:57:28 <Jafet> Was it a word macro assignment
09:58:22 <Jafet> Was it crafted to run code when opened by openoffice
09:58:30 <olsner> if you were free to choose the language, doing it as a word macro in a word document might be not entirely unfun
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10:01:58 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson: submit it as a Flash file
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11:28:27 <oklopol> http://xkcd.com/1188/ ah, the classic game of throw the ball to yourself and teleport it to your friend who then throws it to himself and teleports it back to you and repeat.
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11:57:02 <[mbm]> >-[<-->+++++]<++.---.+++++++..+++.
11:57:16 <oerjan> ^bf >-[<-->+++++]<++.---.+++++++..+++.
11:57:45 <HackEgo> [mbm]: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
12:00:10 <[mbm]> >+++++[<++++++>-]<+.>>----[<----->--]<+.>++++++++.>.>>----[<->----]<---.>>-[<->---]<-------.>>-[<->+++++++]<.++++++++.>++.+.>>-[<->+++++++]<++.>>-[<->-----]<+.+..++.++++++++++++++++++.>++.>.>>----[<------>+]<.>+++++++++.>>-[<-->-----]<.>>---[<------>+]<-.>++++++.>...
12:00:22 <oerjan> ^bf >+++++[<++++++>-]<+.>>----[<----->--]<+.>++++++++.>.>>----[<->----]<---.>>-[<->---]<-------.>>-[<->+++++++]<.++++++++.>++.+.>>-[<->+++++++]<++.>>-[<->-----]<+.+..++.++++++++++++++++++.>++.>.>>----[<------>+]<.>+++++++++.>>-[<-->-----]<.>>---[<------>+]<-.>++++++.>...
12:00:24 <[mbm]> bot probably won't like that one.
12:02:02 <[mbm]> ^bf +.>>-[<->+++]<-----.-------.+++++.-------.>>++++[<++++++++>-]<.>>-[<->+++++]<--.+.+.>+.+++++++++.
12:02:56 <[mbm]> ^bf >-[<->+++++]<----.>>-[<-->-------]<+.+.>>++++[<++++++++>-]<.>>-[<->+++]<++++++.>>-[<-->-------]<-.-----------.+++++++++++.----------------.>++++++++++.
12:03:05 <[mbm]> *shrug* had to try
12:03:33 <oerjan> funny guy. none of our bots have ops anyway.
12:04:26 <Sgeo> Most people try bot loops
12:04:52 <oerjan> i think that's a wee bit exaggerating
12:04:53 <fizzie> monqy: Four or so billion, yes.
12:04:55 <Sgeo> Of the people who mess around with the bots trying to get them to behave weirdly
12:05:29 <monqy> it's cute when they try to crash hackego
12:05:35 <fizzie> Most people who mess around probably mess around with HackEgo?
12:05:35 <oerjan> nah most people try rm -rf / in HackEgo and never manage to achieve anything disruptive at all.
12:05:44 <fizzie> It's kind of more suitable for that than fungot.
12:06:03 <fungot> fizzie: i doubt it. the whole thing, there is a stty command i need
12:06:12 <[mbm]> ^bf >-[<-->-------]<-.++.++++.+.--------.+++++++++++++.>>++++[<++++++++>-]<.>>-[<-->+++++]<++++.+++++++++++.--.+.>>++++[<++++++++>-]<.>>----[<+++++>--]<--.---------------.++++++++++++++.+.-----------.+++++.-------.>>++++[<++++++++>-]<.>>-[<-->+++++]<-----.>>++++[<++++++++>-]<.>>-[<-->+++++]<----.++++.>>++++[<++++++++>-]<.>>-[<-->+++++]<---.++++++++++++.-.++++++++.>>-[<-->+++++]<-.+++++++++++++.+.----------.++++++.-.>>++++[<++++++++>-]<.>>----[<+++++>--]
12:06:13 <fungot> mostly just testing a bf conversion
12:06:25 <oerjan> well, it doesn't require you finding a security hole in befunge. although that _would_ be cool.
12:06:47 <[mbm]> huh, bot dropped the last word
12:06:48 <oerjan> !bt_txtgen mostly just testing a bf conversion
12:06:56 <oerjan> !bf_txtgen mostly just testing a bf conversion
12:07:00 <EgoBot> 247 +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>++++++++>++<<<<-]>>++++.++.>-----.+.<<+++.>++++++++++.>>++.<<<--.>----.--.>.>.<.---------------.<.+.-----------.<++++.>--.>>.<----.>.<+.<-.>>.<+.<<+.-.++++++++.>>++.<<----.+.>>++++.++++++.-.>----------------------. [641]
12:07:14 <oerjan> ^bf +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>++++++++>++<<<<-]>>++++.++.>-----.+.<<+++.>++++++++++.>>++.<<<--.>----.--.>.>.<.---------------.<.+.-----------.<++++.>--.>>.<----.>.<+.<-.>>.<+.<<+.-.++++++++.>>++.<<----.+.>>++++.++++++.-.>----------------------.
12:07:16 <fungot> mostly just testing a bf conversion.
12:07:27 <fizzie> bf_txtgen adds that silly newline.
12:08:20 <fizzie> And I suppose fungot didn't drop anything, the program was just truncated due to IRC line length limits. It ends kind of abruptly.
12:08:29 <fungot> fizzie: oh come on. you had to remove a temporary directory when i'm done
12:08:45 <fizzie> fungot: Yes, I'm always cleaning up after you, it's ridiculous.
12:08:46 <fungot> fizzie: practice safe eating always use fnord wms. no desktop. sawfish, pekwm and ion are my favourites. you've been really helpful. thanks :) the more references, the literal 2
12:09:09 <[mbm]> huh, didn't even know there was an existing txtgen
12:10:27 <fizzie> The existing one is this one: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/brainfuck/util/textgen.java
12:11:22 <[mbm]> seems to do better than my admittedly braindead tool
12:12:09 <oerjan> yours seems to have a lot of loops
12:12:43 <fizzie> textgen.java has a rather strict format for the generated code, it's always of the form +N[>+A>+B>+C...<<<-] and then a loopless series of ><+-. to output; and the number of "terms" inside the initial setup is fixed and given as a command line attribute.
12:12:57 <[mbm]> mine is character driven with a minor optimization to do deltas between characters
12:13:24 <[mbm]> so it's basically the shortest sequence for any particular character
12:14:33 <[mbm]> alternate version builds up a string in the bf cells
12:14:39 <[mbm]> ^bf >----[<+++++>--]<-->>-[<-->+++++]<->>-[<-->---------]<+>>----[<+++++>--]<-->++++++++++>[-]<<<<<[.>]
12:14:44 <oerjan> i noticed you used loops that require wrapping cells
12:15:19 <[mbm]> yeah, the alternate version uses a max of two cells
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12:23:57 <oerjan> <Fiora> intel cpus are powered by the ghosts of murdered silicon -- buy amd!
12:24:58 <oerjan> wait, it all makes sense now. our VLSI chips aren't just alien technology... they're made from _actual_ aliens!
12:25:56 <oerjan> this explains why the aliens don't want to make official contact, too
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12:32:09 <Taneb> It is about lunchtime, oerjan
12:32:18 <Taneb> You're not THAT far north
12:33:51 <oerjan> it's just about solstice (i saw something about nowruz on wp today, i think that's at solstice) so i doubt it'll be dark even at the north pole
12:34:35 <Taneb> It's solstice today or tomorrow
12:35:11 <oerjan> i guess it would be tomorrow, given wp _didn't_ say it was today
12:36:37 <fizzie> The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equinox table says March 20th, 11:02 UT, which should make it today.
12:36:45 <oerjan> anyway the sun shines through the window right behind my laptop, and it was getting overly hard to read even with the drapes shut
12:37:28 <oerjan> this happens just as i come to the discussion about glasses in the logs
12:37:45 <oerjan> i'm afraid the universe might be giving a hint there.
12:38:04 <Taneb> What are those thingies with the boxes that describe algorithms
12:38:04 <Taneb> Anyone know any good flowchart-drawing software?
12:39:14 <Taneb> [mbm], I don't recognize you
12:39:40 <fizzie> I've drawn a couple of flowcharts with that JGraph-driven thing; also with the online draw.io thing, which is built on mxGraph, which is related.
12:40:06 <oerjan> [mbm]: that reminds me, we need to ask some essential newbie questions. (1) do you happen to live in Hexham?
12:40:30 <fizzie> Or is it called Diagramly. I forget exactly.
12:40:50 <fizzie> The application version at least had all kinds of fancy autolayout/routing stuffs in it.
12:41:29 <c00kiemon5ter> or Graphviz, http://www.ffnn.nl/pages/articles/media/uml-diagrams-using-graphviz-dot.php
12:41:46 <[mbm]> oerjan: no, not unless there's a joke in there that I'm missing
12:41:47 <fizzie> Apparently at least www.diagram.ly == draw.io now. It's all so confusing.
12:41:51 <Taneb> draw.io looks pretty cool
12:42:06 <fizzie> And of course for the special case of UML, there's bazillion solutions of various degrees of enterpriseness.
12:42:35 <oerjan> [mbm]: the joke is that hexham is a very small place in England which nevertheless has two regulars in our channel - who don't know each other in real life
12:43:19 <Taneb> Despite having pretty much the same tastes and are roughly the same age
12:43:40 <[mbm]> have they since met irl?
12:43:40 <oerjan> ok (2) do you happen to live in Finland?
12:44:01 <Taneb> [mbm], they refuse to, for the safety of the universe
12:44:10 <fizzie> It's been a while since anyone answered in the affirmative to those two questions.
12:44:33 <oerjan> ok (3) (i think this is the last one) do you want to be on the homestuck list?
12:45:37 <monqy> if you don't know of "the list" already, i think it's best left without explanation…
12:45:42 <oerjan> every time there is a homestuck comic update, Sgeo runs the ^list command to tell people
12:45:53 <oerjan> monqy: no, that's the _other_ list.
12:45:59 <[mbm]> figures as much; get enough spam as is
12:46:54 <oerjan> and there used to be even more, but they were wiped out (how will i now know when oots updates?)
12:53:55 <[mbm]> https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/03/you-bought-it-you-own-it-supreme-court-victory-common-sense-and-owners-rights
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13:00:43 <oerjan> <shachaf> I like how you can make a two-dimensional bounded shape which is congruent to a subset of itself.
13:01:50 <oerjan> "congruent" implies same size, afair
13:02:04 <oerjan> so that sounds _really_ weird.
13:03:09 <Taneb> Maybe he's abusing the fact that subset isn't necessarily strict subset
13:03:31 <oerjan> no, he explicitly clarified that he didn't
13:04:21 <oerjan> oh hm maybe some vitali construction on the circle...
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13:05:43 <oerjan> i expect whatever this construction is, it shall need the axiom of choice somewhere
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13:11:49 <oerjan> oh http://mathoverflow.net/questions/82416/a-set-of-points-congruent-to-its-proper-subset gives an obvious example: { e^(i n) | n natural }
13:13:54 <[mbm]> hmm, somehow I was thinking more http://www2.stetson.edu/~efriedma/packing.html
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13:16:24 <oerjan> never seen that term before
13:16:58 <oerjan> that squares in squares case rings a bell
13:17:11 <Taneb> tan as in sin/cos?
13:18:29 <oerjan> by the pictures, tan as in equilateral triangle, possibly with equal catheters
13:19:29 <oerjan> right, pretty sure i've seen the squares in squares subpage before
13:21:48 <metasepia> CYUL 201300Z 27006KT 10SM -SN OVC012 M05/M07 A2970 RMK SC8 SLP060
13:21:59 <boily> hm. still -SNing. yeeeeah...
13:22:18 <oerjan> neither wikipedia nor wiktionary mentions it
13:22:49 <fizzie> oerjan: Perhaps it's related to "Tan (goat pattern)".
13:22:57 <oerjan> boily: a supernova in your weather report is _not_ good, i'll just say
13:24:17 <boily> fizzie: goats are mathematical objects.
13:24:32 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_packing_in_a_square
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13:26:47 <fizzie> Circle packing in a square is, apparently, not serious business.
13:27:02 <fizzie> "Circle packing in a square is a packing problem in recreational mathematics -- Recreational mathematics is an umbrella term for mathematics carried out for recreation, self-education and self-entertainment, rather than as a fully serious professional activity."
13:27:19 <Jafet> Square packing is totally notable
13:27:53 <Jafet> Apparently even Erwhat wrote a paper on it!
13:28:27 <oerjan> more like Er-douche, right
13:28:39 <coppro> oh dear ive started a meme
13:28:43 <boily> the 13 circle pattern is beautiful.
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13:29:07 <coppro> oerjan: it's ok. it's not your fault
13:31:04 <Taneb> Anyone recommend me a unit-testing thing for C?
13:31:16 <oerjan> boily: huh http://www2.stetson.edu/~efriedma/cirinsqu/ has a much uglier pattern than wikipedia, but the same number
13:31:25 <coppro> Taneb: here's a nickel, get a real language
13:31:54 <Taneb> coppro, I have a real language, just I'm challenging myself not to use it
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13:33:15 <oerjan> coppro: (also my joke is that er-douche is probably about as close as a native english speaker can get to the real pronunciation)
13:34:15 <oerjan> (disclaimer: this may wildly misrepresent how native english speakers pronounce anything)
13:34:37 <Jafet> Have you heard native english speakers speak english
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13:35:23 <Phantom_Hoover> isn't erdos like erdoosh but with the oo kind of closed at the back, like an ee
13:35:51 <boily> oerjan: all I'm thinking about when perusing those packing patterns, is how ikea could benefit (or is alreding doing so) from that.
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13:36:30 <oerjan> boily: just write them and offer your consultancy
13:36:52 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: the o from erdős is a front rounded vowel, [ø].
13:37:36 <boily> oerjan: I'll as my friend who's working there.
13:37:48 <boily> (btw, we're going to have the largest ikea in north america. MWAH AH AH AH AH!)
13:37:49 <Taneb> Isn't IKEA the one that nobody actually owns
13:39:02 <boily> oerjan: is the «oe» in «oerjan» also pronounced [ø]?
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13:40:10 <fizzie> Makes one wonder how close the Er-douche ő is to the Finnish ö. Wikipedia seems to suggest that it's pretty close; the difference between IPA /ø/ and /ø̞/ is supposedly rather small.
13:40:38 <Phantom_Hoover> merriam-webster's audio sample makes it sound like erdursh
13:41:58 <fizzie> /ø/'s page says it's the vowel that a South African English speaker puts in "bird".
13:43:10 <coppro> oerjan: I actually *can* pronounce it because I know French phonetics
13:43:35 <Jafet> We need to go around telling south africans they should pronounce "bird" like the second vowel in "Erdős"
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13:59:43 <oerjan> boily: it's short, and wikipedia seems to think that's [œ], at least in "standard eastern norwegian" (which isn't my dialect, but i don't know that my own pronunciation of that sound is that different). the long version is [ø].
14:01:25 <boily> we have both phonemes, so I can mispronounce it either way.
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14:13:56 <Phantom_Hoover> okay so it turns out that the life and career of stephen wolfram actually makes for a p. good tragedy if framed the right way
14:16:58 <Taneb> Remember that weird SK calculus interpreter I wrote
14:17:05 <Taneb> The C version is going well
14:18:48 <Taneb> Weird in that it stores the Ss and the Ks in an integer
14:18:54 <Taneb> Using Cantor's pairing function
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14:38:39 <oerjan> i think ais523's spam measures _might_ be failing.
14:39:07 <Taneb> It is a possibility
14:44:07 <metasepia> doit definition: an old Dutch coin equal to about ^^^1^^^D^^8^^ stiver.
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14:48:53 <Taneb> Nah, just someone trying to make 8^D smiley while high
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14:54:01 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
14:54:04 <metasepia> The word stiver is derived from the Dutch Stuiver.
14:54:42 <metasepia> The stuiver was a pre-decimal coin used in the Netherlands.
14:55:05 <metasepia> Often called Holland A country of northwest Europe on the North Sea.
14:55:10 <metasepia> The sixth-largest continent, extending west from the Dardanelles, Black Sea, and Ural Mountains.
14:55:14 <metasepia> continent definition: exercising continence.
14:55:47 <Arc_Koen> we may stop using the adjective "largest"
14:56:03 <AnotherTest> Europe isn't a continent at all? Eurasia is
14:56:03 <boily> how many continents are there now?
14:56:17 <Arc_Koen> that depends on your definition of a continent AnotherTest
14:56:47 <oerjan> there may or may not be more definitions of "continent" than there are continents according to any of them.
14:57:19 <Taneb> Eurasia, Africa, North America, South America, Antarctica, Oceania
14:57:19 <Arc_Koen> welll I'm guessing most people's definition of "continent" are enumerations of continents
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14:57:41 <Arc_Koen> why would you put Europe and Asia together, but split america?
14:57:53 <Taneb> AnotherTest, it's animated and switches back and forth
14:58:21 <Taneb> Arc_Koen, the border between the Americas is tiny compared to the Eurasian border
14:58:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Arc_Koen, do /you/ know where the line between europe and asia is?
14:58:33 <Taneb> AnotherTest, it's an animation
14:58:37 <oerjan> AnotherTest: um you realize that map is an animation
14:58:56 <AnotherTest> I'm talking about the frame with 5 continetns
14:59:12 <Arc_Koen> Phantom_Hoover: at least that's what they used to say before that eurasia shit hit us
14:59:29 <AnotherTest> "The narrowest meaning of continent is that of a continuous[6] area of land or mainland, with the coastline and any land boundaries forming the edge of the continent."
14:59:47 <Arc_Koen> AnotherTest: in that case Africa-Eurasia is only one continent
14:59:56 <Taneb> AnotherTest, so... the Isle of Wight is a continent?
14:59:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Arc_Koen, oh, a fairly low mountain range that doesn't even correspond to a geopolitical border?
15:00:25 <Arc_Koen> and both Russia and Turkey would be split between two continents
15:02:43 <AnotherTest> actually in dutch we have the difference between "continent" and "werelddeel" (what you seem to be callling a continent)
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15:03:21 <Taneb> AnotherTest, is one of those what I would call "landmass"?
15:03:54 <AnotherTest> "continent" (Dutch word, not the English word) would be landmass
15:04:06 <Taneb> And there is the problem
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15:09:48 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/1al5n5/really_overwhelmed_and_frustrated_my_concerns_are/c8ysc20
15:09:57 <Phantom_Hoover> honestly cannot tell if this is a parody account from this comment
15:11:12 <coppro> that looks pretty serious
15:11:18 <coppro> the last parenthetical is too true
15:12:26 <Phantom_Hoover> it's suspiciously similar to the 'oh i can't do maths, it makes no sense' thing
15:13:16 <Jafet> A line heard only from students and mathematicians.
15:14:09 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
15:14:18 <metasepia> duck definition: any of various swimming birds (family Anatidae, the duck family) in which the neck and legs are short, the feet typically webbed, the bill often broad and flat, and the sexes usually different from each other in plumage.
15:15:31 <AnotherTest> I don't see how understanding Python code makes you a good programmer though
15:16:18 <AnotherTest> that's like saying "if you can prepare an egg, you're a great cook"
15:16:56 <Sgeo> AnotherTest, he's saying that it means you have the possibility of being a great cook, and if you can't prepare an egg, you'll never be able to be a good cook
15:17:30 <Sgeo> EliezerYudkowsky is the real one as far as anyone knows
15:17:46 <AnotherTest> Sgeo: I'm not sure about that either. People might be confused at first, but later sort it all out
15:18:19 <Jafet> Away with this frequentist rhetoric.
15:18:29 <Phantom_Hoover> ability is a function of innate genius only, don't you know
15:18:55 <Phantom_Hoover> if you can't understand something within 5 minutes you're a useless impostor
15:20:22 <AnotherTest> I feel like a useless impostor now for not understanding every decision made in the Tor design right now
15:25:54 <Arc_Koen> so even someone who has never seen an egg in his life might be considered to have the ability to prepare an egg?
15:26:10 <Arc_Koen> what if it takes him more than five minutes to figure out the shell is not edible
15:26:44 <AnotherTest> Yes, if for example, this person has never seen an egg before it was to be prepared by this person himself
15:27:03 <Taneb> Can I request we remove a few layers of sarcasm and talk about something else
15:27:10 <Arc_Koen> well I guess he can still make hard-boiled eggs
15:27:26 <AnotherTest> or just not boil them an make raw eggs of course
15:27:53 <Arc_Koen> so you're saying anybody can be a cook
15:28:37 <Arc_Koen> anybody who can hold an egg for five minutes without letting it break on the floor or being eaten by a kitten
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15:29:26 <AnotherTest> forget not, that one cannot boil an egg that is not present!
15:29:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, i don't want to think about what would happen if we ablated off more than a couple of layers of sarcasm
15:32:39 <metasepia> In grammar, ablative case is a case in various languages that is used generally to express motion away from something, although the precise meaning may vary by language.
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16:38:11 <FreeFull> The Effects EDSL is a very cool thing
16:42:44 <ion> What’s that
16:46:31 <shachaf> oerjan: Yes, you can get pretty far in that sort of thing without the axiom of choice.
16:46:31 <lambdabot> shachaf: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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16:52:10 <Arc_Koen> the new soprano spam page on the wiki is definitely *not* proper french
16:52:40 <Arc_Koen> (in fact it's hardly readable at all)
16:52:42 <shachaf> oerjan: Next up, you can make an uncountable bounded shape which is congruent to a subset of itself.
17:17:14 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, Loughborough studying Computer Science and Maths, or Newcastle studying Maths
17:17:24 <Taneb> What advice would you give
17:27:05 <fizzie> I'm not terribly sure I like the interaction paradigm frameworks of this "Feedly" thing.
17:27:41 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?").
17:29:31 * boily SEGFAULT: Too many buzzwords: `interaaction paradigm frameworks'
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17:34:19 <ion> Sweet. “Beetle Juice - A Minecraft Roller Coaster” http://youtu.be/afcudstM9zA
17:40:34 <Taneb> Some of my friends made a big coaster back in beta 1.8, but it wasn't anywhere near as arty
17:41:52 <Taneb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpMRGzdSM5s
17:45:25 <Taneb> It's longer now, but parts of the extensions don't work
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17:48:36 <ion> taneb: Cool
17:57:56 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, yes
17:58:03 <Taneb> It's got good sports and engineering
17:58:58 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Loughborough_University%27s_Coat_of_Arms.svg
17:59:09 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how hard that coat of arms is trying to look Olde
18:03:18 <metasepia> advice definition: recommendation regarding a decision or course of conduct.
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18:27:39 <elliott> @ask ais523 can you look at the newest wave of spam pages? looks filterable
18:29:01 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, if I go to Loughborough, it will increase the esoteric migration to the midlands
18:29:39 <Taneb> Not really, the midlands are scary
18:29:46 <Taneb> The horizon is too low
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18:30:18 <Phantom_Hoover> just stay close to the buildings and don't look up much
18:30:34 <Taneb> (either way, my first choice is York, I'm just deciding my insurance work)
18:31:45 <Taneb> Yeah, I didn't like it
18:33:33 <Taneb> Newcastle is a much nicer offer, but it's barely away from Hexham
18:33:44 <Taneb> And also, no computer science
18:34:09 <boily> what is the center of mass of this channel? I weigh ~150 lbs, and I'm at FN35EM (maidenhead locator).
18:34:27 <Taneb> I'd say somewhere in the north-east atlantic
18:34:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, what're the conditions for york vs. loughborough?
18:35:36 <Taneb> York is AAA, Loughborough is AAB
18:36:23 <fizzie> You can get an approximation from /who * + geoip of all locations + averaging. (Just remember to average actual points and not some globular coordinates.)
18:36:38 <kmc> fuck, how do you average spherical coordinates
18:37:56 <Phantom_Hoover> you find the centroid in R^3 then project it onto the sphere, i guess
18:39:19 <fizzie> kmc: One way is to take a unimodal parametric distribution supported on the surface of the sphere (like the von Mises-Fisher), maximum-likelihood estimate the parameters, and then get what that gives.
18:39:34 <kmc> i was afraid of that
18:39:41 <fizzie> That's what I do (except for two dimensions) for the hue in gcolor/fcolor.
18:40:09 <kmc> Bessel functions of the first kind
18:40:16 <boily> much way too complex.
18:40:27 <boily> it's too complex, I said!
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18:41:16 <fizzie> You can do what PH suggests, too. (Perhaps they're equal for some family of distributions?)
18:42:27 <boily> ok. lessee what happens with /who *
18:43:15 <fizzie> (fcolor uses the Wikipedia-listed approximation of kappa, I think.)
18:43:19 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: what if the centroid in R^3 is... THE CENTER OF THE EARTH
18:43:26 <boily> hm. it just returns a bunch of «[#esoteric] Phantom_Hoover (~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486) H 0 (Phantom Hoover)».
18:43:39 <Taneb> kmc, in this case, unlikely
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18:43:50 <fizzie> Oh, I forgot about freenode and cloaks.
18:44:17 <fizzie> Well, in a real IRC network you could do that.
18:44:22 <boily> everyone is «H 0», except some like nortti who a «G 0».
18:44:31 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, i think in that case the average isn't well-defined
18:44:40 <Sgeo> If I ue XenClient, I won't be able to run VirtualBox, will I?
18:45:00 <boily> Sgeo: you can, you just have to tweak a parameter in your VM config file.
18:45:27 <kmc> i'm at approx 42.364537,-71.102614 if that helps
18:46:04 <boily> Sgeo: I may be confusing VirtualBox and VMware Player together, but to run a virtualised system inside a virtualised system, you have to explicitly enable that.
18:46:52 <kmc> perhaps 8m above MSL
18:46:53 <Sgeo> boily, huh, but there is an option that can be enabled. Cool
18:47:42 <boily> kmc: I don't need elevation yet, not launching any ICMBs at anyone, but thanks anyway. it may come handy sometime...
18:48:21 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Actually, now that I look at it, the mean direction parameter of the von Mises-Fisher is the mean in R^3, normalized. I just do the concentration parameter estimation because I use the "directivity" of the distribution in the weight function.
18:48:24 <Taneb> Intercontinental Magic Bananas, Phantom_Hoover
18:49:49 <fizzie> I'm somewhere around 60.2N 24.8E.
18:51:05 <Taneb> I'm to the east of the middle of Hexham
18:52:37 * Fiora is near ~34N/118W?
18:53:05 <elliott> the drones are on their way to your houses
18:53:21 <fizzie> (Though as the question was about the center of mass, I'm not sure how averaging spherical coordinates is relevant; the center of mass is not going to be on the sphere. Unless we're all in the same point.)
18:54:18 <fizzie> boily wanted to know the center of mass of #esoteric, presumably for some good and proper reason?
18:54:39 <Fiora> won't you need to know peoples' masses too for that?
18:54:42 <Phantom_Hoover> if he wanted to know the centre of mass then projecting the centroid is obviously the right way to go
18:55:20 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Why would you project it anywhere?
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18:56:07 <boily> Fiora: that's why I stated that I weigh around 150 lbs.
18:56:14 <shachaf> I am ~2500 miles from where I was last week and ~700 from where I'll be next week.
18:56:23 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: indeed, it is to find the average esolanger.
18:56:27 <fizzie> Fiora: I was thinking of an approximation, assuming identical weights.
18:56:37 <Taneb> I'm the average esolanger
18:56:41 <fizzie> boily: I thought it was canonically established that the average esolanger is in Hexham, Finland.
18:56:57 <Taneb> So boily's statement is 100% accurate if you're elliott
18:57:03 <fizzie> (Alternatively, the average esolanger is probably suffocating somewhere deep underground.)
18:57:23 * Fiora is about 45kg if you need that, I guess
18:57:26 <Taneb> fizzie, so THAT'S what cpressey's up to!
18:58:03 <elliott> fizzie: is this the kind in Taphophobia or in
18:58:12 <elliott> hey Phantom_Hoover what was that chapter called
18:58:20 <Arc_Koen> did you guys just get a girl to tell her weigh?
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18:58:55 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, er, right, that's only for finding the average
18:58:57 <Fiora> I volunteered it, slly :p
18:59:15 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I guess you could project it if you want to know where to start digging.
18:59:36 <fizzie> I don't know what to type in Wolfram|Alpha in order for it to compute the maximum depth that a direct line between (the center of) Finland and Hexham attains, even though I'm sure that is a number it can compute.
18:59:58 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: you could also say that chris has been........ presseyd
19:00:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I guess that counts
19:00:10 <boily> (please, someone, give me a blunt object to hit me with)
19:00:29 <shachaf> @google distance from finland to hexham
19:00:31 <lambdabot> http://www.distance-calculator.co.uk/world-distances-oulu-to-hexham.htm
19:00:31 <lambdabot> Title: Travel Distance between Oulu, Finland & Hexham, Great Britain (UK) - Find out ho ...
19:00:48 <elliott> fizzie: I remember using a point averager thing to find the perfect place for a Hexham/Helsinki meetup
19:00:59 <shachaf> I didn't know crows fly between Finland and Hexham.
19:01:55 <fizzie> I like how W|A gives distances in terms of speed of light in optic fiber.
19:02:12 <Fiora> elliott: it's telling you the meeting should be on a ship?
19:02:18 <fizzie> (Well, it's the "direct travel times assuming constant-speed great-circle path" table, not the actual result.)
19:02:22 <elliott> i think it was maybe telling us not to bother
19:03:21 <shachaf> Not everything has to be about shipping, Fiora.
19:03:25 <fizzie> "midpoint between Hexham and Helsinki" computes [ line segment | endpoints (1,5) | (5,-4) | midpoint ], for some reason.
19:04:20 <Taneb> Yeah, after edwardk said something in #haskell-lens, I now ship tables/acid-state
19:04:32 <fizzie> Purely by eyeballing, the midpoint on the great-circle path it plots on the map would be quite close to Sweden's coast, but it could be in the sea.
19:05:22 <Taneb> your welcomelliott
19:11:01 -!- monqy has joined.
19:12:42 <boily> monqy: hi, could I please get your coordinates and body weigh?
19:16:21 <shachaf> monqy.. its for the greater good..
19:19:07 <Fiora> he's trying to calculate the center of mass of the channel apparently
19:20:20 <shachaf> TWIST: monqy is the center of mass of the channel
19:21:02 * FireFly contributes with (Stockholm, ~65kg)
19:21:08 <shachaf> there is no channel but #esoteric and monqy is its centroid
19:25:37 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
19:26:20 <boily> `learn #esoteric is the only channel that exists. monqy is its centroïd.
19:27:02 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
19:27:04 <HackEgo> itidus21 just made some instant coffee.
19:27:14 <Taneb> Is itidus21 still alive
19:27:31 <FireFly> Given that he just made some instant coffee.
19:27:40 <monqy> pretty sure hell has instant coffee too
19:27:52 <boily> instan coffee doesn't proove nothing. it's not even coffee.
19:30:58 -!- Bike has joined.
19:31:38 <boily> ah! another vict^H^H^H^Hhappy volunteer!
19:31:50 <boily> Bike: hi, could I please get your coordinates and body weigh?
19:32:28 <shachaf> boily is trying to make a voodoo doll of you
19:32:36 <monqy> hey didn't you tell me to do it
19:32:41 <monqy> what's with this turnaround!!!!!!!!
19:33:05 <boily> shachaf: shush! you're interfering with the experimental protocol!
19:33:10 <Bike> if he is, i must have already given him my coordinates and body weight.
19:33:39 <shachaf> even when i said its for the greater good.......................
19:33:39 <boily> btw, I don't have shachaf's coördiweights.
19:34:07 <shachaf> are you trying to sweet-talk me with diæreses
19:34:19 <boily> shachaf: subliminal messages. you shouldn't have noticed them.
19:34:23 <lambdabot> *** "sweet-talk" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
19:34:24 <lambdabot> v 1: influence or urge by gentle urging, caressing, or
19:34:24 <lambdabot> flattering; "He palavered her into going along" [syn:
19:34:24 <lambdabot> {wheedle}, {cajole}, {palaver}, {blarney}, {coax}, {sweet-
19:34:31 <metasepia> sweet-talk definition: cajole, coax.
19:35:16 <Bike> good job monqy. you're a credit to your race. the bicycle race.
19:35:17 <shachaf> 12:03 <aristid> shachaf: you do love your diaresis in english words :P
19:45:12 -!- nooodl has joined.
19:45:59 <boily> maybe third time. let me try another pitch...
19:46:48 <boily> nooodl: hi there, you fine gentleman. how's the weather today? would you mind to lend me your cöördïnäẗës and your body weigh, if you would mind, please?
19:47:02 <boily> (shachaf: watch the power of ultra diæreses.)
19:47:51 <nooodl> boily: Edegem, Belgium: Mostly cloudy, 2°C (36°F). Wind chill: 2°C (36°F). Winds: calm. Dewpoint: 1°C (34°F). Relative humidity: 96%. Pressure: 1012 mb (29.89 in) (⇑). Visibility: 10.0 km (6.2 mi). Station: IANTWERP1. Updated: March 20, 8:45 pm CET. Alerts: ◼ Snow/Ice.
19:48:06 <olsner> coördinate seems to be the right way to write it
19:48:15 <boily> wooooah. that is some nifty formatting.
19:48:29 <elliott> nooodl: um wheres teh body weight
19:49:04 <nooodl> i literally don't know my body weight tbh
19:49:14 <monqy> body weight is for losers with bodies
19:49:45 <boily> nooodl: I'll note edegem, and about 150 lbs.
19:50:10 <elliott> i wonder if i could estimate monqys body weight
19:50:22 <monqy> i dont even know it
19:50:24 <nooodl> if i had to guess: juuust under 60kg (130 lbs)
19:50:26 <fizzie> fungot: How's about your weight? Or is that a too personal question?
19:50:27 <fungot> fizzie: if you have tcp/ ip back when it used to listen on all interfaces not so long ago
19:50:35 <elliott> i wonder how much i weigh these days
19:50:53 <shachaf> i don't know my body weight
19:51:14 <nooodl> was that when you were 12 elliott
19:51:15 <shachaf> although i know what it was 3.5 years ago?? because i have a card that says it
19:51:27 <elliott> nooodl: that was when i was like 13, 14
19:51:52 <shachaf> that's the last kg body weight i remember
19:52:13 <boily> I have eight entries, and none of you supplied me with the same format for your coordinates. gj.
19:52:24 <kmc> TIL Unicode has Mathematical Operators: Invisible Operators
19:52:32 <nooodl> oh wow it's only... 52 kg wow
19:52:57 <shachaf> I think I've mentioned those once.
19:53:00 <monqy> i dont know what weights mean
19:53:08 * kmc used to weigh 3.8 kg
19:53:09 <shachaf> They're not just mathematical -- there's also 2060 WORD JOINER [<U+2060>]
19:53:18 <kmc> yeah i know of these
19:53:21 <Fiora> I guess I am still the smallest here
19:53:23 <kmc> but i did not know about INVISIBLE TIMES
19:53:28 <boily> ~eval 52 / 0.45359237
19:53:31 <Fiora> but wow esoteric is like all skinny people
19:53:35 <boily> ~eval 52 / 0.45359237
19:53:40 <kmc> Fiora: i'm not skinny!!
19:53:54 <olsner> hmm, iinm kg is a unit of mass, not weight
19:53:55 <shachaf> kmc is one with the planet
19:54:05 <nooodl> monqy: 1 kg is the mass of the International Prototype Kilogram hth
19:54:09 <elliott> i can never remember what iinm means
19:54:13 <Fiora> kmc is made out of degenerate matter
19:54:17 <olsner> elliott: if I'm not mistaken
19:54:21 <shachaf> so he weighs about 6e24 kg
19:54:33 <nooodl> sqrt(-1) * inch * meter
19:54:51 <shachaf> with a height of about 13k miles??
19:54:52 <monqy> i also don't know what masses mean
19:55:00 <kmc> but the prototype kilogram is not in an inertial reference frame!!
19:55:06 <fizzie> "May you live in invisible times." (An old Chinese proverb.)
19:55:32 <nooodl> monqy: force over acceleration :-)
19:55:40 <shachaf> what about 2061 FUNCTION APPLICATION [<U+2061>]
19:55:45 <shachaf> imo ghc should support that one
19:56:19 <fizzie> Should it be like a synonym for $?
19:56:42 <kmc> maybe you can already define it??
19:56:52 <shachaf> Wow, someone has english.pm and *isn't* using it as a perl documentation site?
19:57:07 <kmc> @let () = ($)
19:57:10 <kmc> ffffuuuuuu
19:57:35 <shachaf> I guess you meant $ in Haskell and not $? in Perl, though.
19:58:18 <Bike> uh what is the nature of this character, is it just a zero width space
19:58:38 <nooodl> it's to make stuff like "f(x+y)" properly parsable
19:58:52 <nooodl> i.e. "is it the function f applied to x+y, or a number f times a number x+y?"
19:59:11 <monqy> and it's invisible so it doesn't get in the way
19:59:25 <elliott> what happened to unicode not encoding shit like that
19:59:34 <Bike> the unicode committee happened?
20:00:15 <monqy> function application much less important than "pile of poo" or cat faces
20:00:27 <elliott> well thats just because of emoji import
20:00:34 <elliott> imo people complaining about the emoji import are dumb
20:00:52 <shachaf> in elliotts o people are dumb
20:03:24 <kmc> your password must contain: two numbers, two punctuation, two Yijing hexagrams, two invisible mathematical operators
20:03:32 <kmc> two ancient greek musical notes
20:03:58 <shachaf> kmc: Is this one of those games where the requirements uniquely specify one password?
20:04:15 <shachaf> I should make a website with a password requirement like that.
20:04:15 <kmc> is that a thing
20:04:19 <kmc> sounds like a Mystery Hunt puzzle
20:04:27 <olsner> shachaf: I think you should, if you can
20:04:41 <nooodl> "your password must match the following regexes:"
20:05:06 <olsner> "your password is abc123" "confirm your password:"
20:05:51 <kmc> you have 30 minutes to confirm your password or it will be towed at owner's expense
20:06:06 <Taneb> shachaf, bonus if you can make it look like there are many
20:06:11 <olsner> (oh, and the forgot your password? page would just list everyone's password (i.e. print abc123))
20:06:16 <Taneb> And all the requirements seem sensible
20:06:47 <kmc> password satisfies requirements when preceeded by its quotation
20:07:17 <Bike> your password must match the following regexes <-- oh, did you see the mystery hunt regex crossword? i still haven't finished it
20:07:23 <kmc> i did see it
20:07:27 <nooodl> i finished it a couple weeks ago
20:07:29 <kmc> did you see the solution in 30 lines of Haskell
20:07:31 <nooodl> i made my own little thingy too!
20:07:36 <kmc> "30 lines of Haskell and 300,000 lines of C++"
20:08:04 <shachaf> did you see ion's solution
20:08:05 <nooodl> it was smaller and had a much tinier alphabet ([abcd])
20:08:08 <kmc> shachaf: no
20:08:13 <nooodl> i solved it manually fuck all of you
20:08:17 <kmc> is Z3 named after http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z3_(computer)
20:08:24 <kmc> it's kind of an awesome name for a theorem prover
20:08:55 <shachaf> https://github.com/ekmett/ersatz/tree/master/examples/regexp-grid
20:09:24 <boily> 22 bit word length???
20:09:25 <Bike> i was thinking of writing something up to solve it but i figured it would be more fun to do it manually
20:09:38 <Bike> and then i got like 70% of the letters filled in only to realize i'd made a mistake
20:09:44 <kmc> i used Yices to win at pub trivia once
20:09:50 <nooodl> ok imma make my puzzle into a html thing
20:09:51 <ion> This? Cool, hadn’t seen it. https://gist.github.com/LeventErkok/4942496
20:09:58 <nooodl> but i don't know if it's actually solvable! it probably is
20:10:06 <kmc> that's the one i saw
20:10:17 <nooodl> there's probably even too many clues
20:11:18 <kmc> anyone know where i can buy 2,000 relays on the cheap
20:11:44 <boily> kmc: http://www.digikey.ca/
20:11:46 <elliott> dont talk about drugs in #esoteric kmc
20:12:14 <Taneb> kmc, if you're willing to PM I know a guy
20:12:20 <kmc> heh really Taneb?
20:12:21 <kmc> maybe later
20:12:28 <Taneb> I'm making the same joke as elliott
20:12:46 <monqy> i was going to make a joke about radio shack but your jokes are better
20:12:58 <monqy> pretty sure the punchline was just going to be "radio shack" anyway
20:13:07 <fizzie> I think there was something called Silk Road where you can buy relays with bitcoins?
20:13:23 <elliott> monqy: is radio shack a real place
20:13:33 <monqy> elliott: do you not have radio shack in uk
20:13:33 <Taneb> elliott, I think there's one in Gateshead
20:13:35 <boily> elliott: radio shack doesn't exist anymore.
20:13:43 <Bike> elliott: http://www.theonion.com/articles/even-ceo-cant-figure-out-how-radioshack-still-in-b,2190/
20:13:49 <ion> I thought my solution was slow, but the one in the gist says it takes 7 minutes. :-)
20:13:58 <Bike> also i think i remember reading about the illicit relay trade in soviet academia once
20:14:06 <ion> s/solution/solver/
20:14:13 <fizzie> ion: Does your solution also prove uniqueness?
20:14:17 <ion> fizzie: nope
20:14:29 <ion> fizzie: The one in the gist says it takes 7 additional minutes to do that as well.
20:16:11 <fizzie> We don't have any Radio Shaqs in Finland, but there's some national electronics chains that I think are kind of bit of similar? (Like Yleiselektroniikka.)
20:16:33 <fizzie> It means vaguely something like "general electronics".
20:16:48 <Bike> yes but i has yl in it which is not a digraph i think i've seen initially before
20:17:03 <kmc> radio shack still has a not entirely terrible selection of hobbyist / DIY electronic stuff
20:17:15 <fizzie> Yleinen, ylin, yllättävä, ylpeä, ... it's kind of common.
20:17:17 <kmc> if you can make it to the back without someone trying to sell you a mobile phone
20:17:37 <fizzie> I don't think YE sells any mobile phones.
20:17:53 <ion> yliesierikoisapulaisvaravaurioraivausvuorovarausratkaisupäällikkö
20:18:02 <kmc> `hyfinate yliesierikoisapulaisvaravaurioraivausvuorovarausratkaisupäällikkö
20:18:07 <kmc> isn't that a thing
20:18:16 <kmc> ~hyfinate yliesierikoisapulaisvaravaurioraivausvuorovarausratkaisupäällikkö
20:18:16 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
20:18:21 <ion> echo … | hyfinate
20:18:23 <fizzie> There was also a shop called RadioDuo around when I was young, they were perhaps even more hobbyist/DIY-oriented. YE's kind of professional place.
20:18:30 <kmc> `run echo yliesierikoisapulaisvaravaurioraivausvuorovarausratkaisupäällikkö | hyfinate
20:18:32 <shachaf> If it wasn't a thing then HackEgo would still print something.
20:18:35 <HackEgo> y-lie-sie-ri-koi-sa-pu-lais-va-ra-vau-ri-o-rai-vaus-vuo-ro-va-raus-rat-kai-su-pääl-lik-kö
20:18:40 <ion> hyfinate will utterly fail with that one, though, since it’s a compound word.
20:18:55 <kmc> what's it mean
20:19:11 <fizzie> `run echo yli-esi-erikois-apulais-vara-vaurio-raivaus-vuoro-varaus-ratkaisu-päällikkö | hyfinate
20:19:13 <HackEgo> y-li-e-si-e-ri-kois-a-pu-lais-va-ra-vau-ri-o-rai-vaus-vuo-ro-va-raus-rat-kai-su-pääl-lik-kö
20:19:42 <fizzie> Apparently you can do the word separations manually.
20:19:50 <Bike> pääls stick together
20:20:16 <ion> Someone has translated it. http://forums.nexuswar.com/viewtopic.php?p=243480&sid=136cdf7b3a8634e1fc95ef9a27d8d256#243480
20:21:08 <fizzie> I've heard the lentokonesuihkuturbiinimoottoriapumekaanikkoaliupseerioppilas one before.
20:21:30 <fizzie> Also kolmivaihekilowattituntimittari is allegedly a word with real-world use.
20:21:45 * boily loves his French, short, simple words
20:21:47 <fizzie> (Three-phase kilowatt-hour meter.)
20:22:09 <kmc> donaudampfschifffahrtsgesellschaftskapitän
20:23:19 <olsner> you should write that kolmivaihe-kWhm instead
20:23:20 <fizzie> One of my favourite German words is "entgegengegangen", especially when written in script by hand.
20:23:40 <kmc> whatsit mean
20:24:14 <fizzie> It's one of their two-part verbs, entgegen/gehen, except inflected.
20:24:17 <olsner> hmm, not far from ngengengengeng
20:24:21 <shachaf> fizzie: "minimum" is pretty good to write in script by hand.
20:24:42 <nooodl> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/15495351/regex.html
20:24:47 <shachaf> But English can hardly hope to compete here.
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20:26:15 <fizzie> I've forgotten most of my German, but the base verb is something like "to go to meet [someone]", or "to go towards".
20:26:27 <fizzie> And then it's some past tense of that.
20:26:36 -!- copumpkin has joined.
20:26:46 <olsner> I think it means something like "gone against"
20:26:53 <fizzie> They have a "ge-" prefix for some of those, that's where the "ge" in "gegangen" comes from.
20:27:04 <FreeFull> Funny how the show instance for () is strict
20:27:14 <FreeFull> Rather than just ignoring its argument
20:27:20 <fizzie> "to go toward(s), to approach , (um jdn zu treffen) to go to meet (fig) [einer Gefahr, dem Tode, der Zukunft] to face" says a random dictionary for entgegengehen.
20:27:41 <fizzie> Entgegen itself is kind of like against, toward.
20:28:02 <boily> I'm confused. do you go against, or towards?
20:28:48 <fizzie> Well, you know, you go against ("in contrary direction") someone, if you go towards someone who is coming to meet you.
20:28:57 <fizzie> They're not opposites.
20:29:07 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:29:12 <ion> nooodl: You’ll need to add some content to the <td>s for all browsers to render the boxes. perhaps. I think there’s also a CSS property you can use alternatively.
20:29:16 <olsner> hmm, http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/entgegen has different meanings for the preposition and the adverb
20:29:30 <boily> fizzie: aaaah, it's more clearer that way.
20:29:58 <ion> Every empty td.
20:30:08 <nooodl> no i mean, which browser(s)
20:30:14 <ion> At least my Firefox.
20:30:44 <ion> and my sword
20:30:59 <ion> Works now.
20:31:01 <oerjan> (well empty td's in general)
20:31:12 <ion> No s needed with the ones with numbers in them, though.
20:31:28 <nooodl> 'course not. i'm just lazy
20:31:48 <nooodl> replaced <td> by <td>
20:36:10 <boily> nooodl: btw, how did you make that weather report? I'm thinking about adding something similar to metasepia.
20:36:24 <nooodl> it's a weather bot in another channel
20:37:02 <fizzie> German compound verbs are kind of silly. Like that entgegen/gehen, it's split as "Ich gehe [...] entgegen.", but in the pluperfect tense it goes back together, with the auxiliary verb taking the place of the main verb bit, becoming something like "Ich war [...] entgengengegangen." (Disclaimer: only studied Germany for like a couple years in high school, forgotten most of it.)
20:37:25 <fizzie> (Where the [...] says where you're actually going.)
20:38:17 <nooodl> you'd want to use something like http://www.worldweatheronline.com/free-weather-feed.aspx
20:39:33 <fizzie> No, you should buy a commercial weather data feed.
20:39:53 <fizzie> E.g. http://corporate.foreca.com/en/products/forecaweatherapi/ for FINNISH PRECISION-GRADE WEATHER.
20:40:02 <boily> much better to just grab what's available from NOAA's NWS FTP.
20:40:02 <fizzie> Various product packages are available!
20:40:08 <fizzie> (I have a friend who works there.)
20:40:27 <fizzie> (I don't get a commission.)
20:41:24 <fizzie> olsner: Doesn't it sound impressive?
20:42:08 <fizzie> It's like AIRCRAFT GRADE TITANIUM except MORE PRECISE.
20:43:24 <fizzie> Also, I've updated my Chromium, and I have a keyword search thing for google (so that "g foo" google-searches for foo) except now the SoSmartItHurtsBar has decided that the first alternative is to do a Google search for "g foo", and then there's a pile of history, and only at the bottom is the keyword bookmark thing.
20:43:35 <fizzie> For "wp foo" it goes to Wikipedia search immediately.
20:44:10 <fizzie> Is there some kind of priority setting to make what I want more preferrable?
20:45:07 <fizzie> (Also why is the history bit full of things that don't have either "g" or "foo" in them?)
20:45:35 <olsner> it searches on history contents and stuff too
20:46:23 <fizzie> Well, I suppose the *page* does have "foo" as a substring, there's that.
20:46:49 <fizzie> Oh, it's called Omnibox, not SoSmartItHurtsBar.
20:47:00 <fizzie> I think I'd like a bit more stupider address bar.
20:47:39 <fizzie> There's also ten gazillion search engines in the "manage search engines" list, I suppose it auto-populates that as I come across sites that can search for things?
20:49:12 <fizzie> Mhm, well, I made my "g" search the default selection, and now it seems to behave better. (Something had also made it "g_" instead. And there's a pile of other duplicates where there's www.example.com and www.example.com_ with slightly different URLs.)
20:49:29 <shachaf> nooodl: Does that crossword have a unique solution?
20:49:46 <shachaf> Is "that crossword has a unique solution" one of the clues?
20:51:55 <nooodl> i don't know if it'll help though
20:52:24 <nooodl> but i'm loving the idea of that "clue" being necessary to solve one of these
20:52:44 <shachaf> The only clues that refer to square 4 are 1A and 4D, right?
20:53:23 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
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20:55:47 <nooodl> ooh i see what you're doing
20:55:54 <shachaf> And all 1A tells you is that row 1 starts with A, and all 4D tells you is that column 4 has two As.
20:56:17 <nooodl> that's clever. it's valid imo!
20:56:22 <shachaf> If neither of these tells you anything about square 4, then you don't know anything about it. Therefore square 4 should be A, unless I'm wrong somewhere.
20:56:29 <shachaf> Is it solvable without that sort of thing?
20:57:29 <shachaf> Right, I'm just saying nonsense.
20:57:35 <nooodl> but feel free to use this kind of logic, i approve of it
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20:58:55 <shachaf> Moreover the fact that it's solvable uniquely must mean there's only one other A in the column.
21:03:44 <shachaf> If you didn't write the puzzle with that fact in mind.
21:04:39 <shachaf> Hmm, I can't figure out whether square 6 is A or D.
21:04:43 <shachaf> Which probably means I made some mistake.
21:05:22 <oerjan> i'd imagine that "this puzzle has a unique solution" cannot possibly be necessary information, because if the puzzle is _really_ unsolvable without it that means it is false...
21:06:01 <oerjan> hm maybe if it's one of those self-referential meta-logical things
21:07:15 <nooodl> shachaf: probably my bad
21:07:16 <olsner> maybe it could be uniquely solvable with help from that statement, but has multiple solutions otherwise
21:07:42 <oerjan> olsner: but how can that possibly be true?
21:07:59 <shachaf> nooodl: I have: ADDAABBC.CBBBCBA
21:08:21 <olsner> oerjan: I don't know, by using some kind of logic on it perhaps
21:08:28 <Bike> damn that logic
21:08:28 <nooodl> both are valid, yeah. i need to remove one of the diagonal 6 options
21:08:39 <nooodl> (also, everything else is correct)
21:09:37 <oerjan> olsner: it could not be ordinary logic afaict
21:09:50 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
21:09:53 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:10:14 <elliott> oerjan: maybe the puzzle has a square that has to be filled in with how many solutions it has
21:10:24 <shachaf> oerjan: Can you figure out a metapuzzle way to make it work?
21:10:29 <oerjan> when i become world dictator i'll make it illegal to talk in a phone within earshot of other people that aren't participating. hth.
21:11:08 <shachaf> oerjan: what if you're talking in russian though
21:11:19 <oerjan> shachaf: perhaps i could if the housemate wasn't frying my brain with his phone talk.
21:11:24 <olsner> oerjan: it might be more interesting to make it illegal not to participate
21:11:38 <Bike> how many correct answers does this question have? hint: at most one
21:12:05 <elliott> because that answer is only half true (there is actually 1 answer)
21:12:17 <oerjan> olsner: i'm not interested in making it interesting, i'm interested in giving people some peace and quiet. Also: snooze buttons will be illegal.
21:12:26 <Bike> yeah zero isn't a fixpoint
21:12:45 <elliott> oerjan: you want to give me some peace and quiet and also deprive me of snooze?
21:13:04 <Bike> oerjan that's terrible. oerjan for antipope
21:13:07 <olsner> why would you want to give people peace and quiet?
21:13:30 <oerjan> elliott: if you don't need to get up when the alarm rings you shouldn't have set it to that time hth
21:13:32 <Taneb> I know someone who declared himself antipope a few years back
21:13:33 <shachaf> but not the protesting kind, because that's too loud
21:13:43 <elliott> oerjan: what if I do have to get up at that time but don't want to.
21:13:54 <shachaf> oerjan: imo elliott makes a good point
21:14:07 <Taneb> He later experienced something very similar to a layman's idea of quantum immortality after being hit by a car
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21:14:30 <elliott> is that another way of saying he died
21:14:35 <oerjan> elliott: then do what i do, turn off the alarm. it's not like you'll want to get up when the next alarm goes off either.
21:15:22 <elliott> oerjan: you don't understand. i have to pretend to myself that i am a functioning person who can get up.
21:16:06 <olsner> my alarm clock has some maximum number of snoozes, after which it just turns off the alarm entirely
21:17:05 <oerjan> olsner: ok that's clever. maybe i'll allow _1_ snooze.
21:17:20 <nooodl> shachaf: i fixed the issue in a pretty interesting way
21:17:48 <olsner> it's easier to only have an off button
21:18:14 <nooodl> which forces it to be D
21:18:25 <shachaf> nooodl: I already closed my file...
21:18:27 <olsner> if you're serious about not getting up you might as well not interrupt your sleep every 9 minutes
21:18:50 <shachaf> Now I have to remember how lookahead works.
21:18:55 <Bike> how many correct answers does this question have, hint at most zero
21:19:08 <oerjan> wait is this another regexp crossword? i solved the other one that was linked the other day, that was fun.
21:19:16 <nooodl> it's a small cute easy one
21:19:20 <fizzie> I just schedule three or so alarms with longer-than-9-minute intervals, and in the morning turn off as many as I need.
21:19:28 <shachaf> nooodl: Did you change the other letters at all?
21:19:38 <nooodl> oerjan: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/15495351/regex.html
21:20:09 <shachaf> nooodl: Also you should specify that there's an implicit ^$ around every clue.
21:20:42 <nooodl> oh, i didn't bother mentioning that because it's how the mit puzzle hunt one works as well
21:21:09 <shachaf> nooodl: Does this solve the ambiguity?
21:21:21 <nooodl> irb(main):008:0> r.match('AADB')
21:21:21 <nooodl> => #<MatchData "AADB" 1:"A">
21:21:21 <nooodl> irb(main):009:0> r.match('AAAB')
21:21:39 <nooodl> where r is that down 1 clue.
21:21:46 <shachaf> I used perl -pe and forgot that it always prints.
21:22:10 <shachaf> imo you should get rid of the lookahead because who even remembers how that works
21:22:21 <shachaf> But I don't actually care since I've solved it.
21:22:26 <nooodl> no the lookahead is beautiful
21:22:38 <nooodl> imo i should make more clues silly things like it
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21:23:30 <shachaf> imo you should make more clues depend on "this has a unique solution"
21:23:43 <shachaf> and figure out the issue oerjan pointed out
21:23:46 <oerjan> nooodl: *sigh* i need to import that into a paint program to annotate it... which would be easier if it were actually a picture format...
21:23:53 -!- Bike_ has joined.
21:24:01 <shachaf> oerjan: Just do it in a text file like I did.
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21:24:57 <nooodl> http://i.imgur.com/b9U64y0.png use this?
21:25:19 <shachaf> I kind of cheated my way to figuring out that the 12th square is a B.
21:25:26 <shachaf> There was probably an honest way to do it.
21:25:39 <elliott> is the search space of nooodls crossword small enough to brute-force
21:26:16 <fizzie> Also called "32 bits".
21:26:52 <shachaf> elliott is so hardcore he won't even prune the tree
21:27:18 <fizzie> shachaf: "Tree"? I think you just uint32_t u = 0; it.
21:27:37 <fizzie> Then write some bitmask tests for the clues.
21:27:50 <shachaf> Writing those bitmask tests is more work than solving the puzzle.
21:28:01 <nooodl> it's also a fun way to spend time though
21:28:39 <shachaf> It gets more annoying when people introduce lookahead.
21:28:40 <nooodl> write a "4-length-ABCD-string" regex -> bitmask converter
21:30:10 <nooodl> actually, not just length 4. the diagonals are shorter
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21:30:53 <Bike> hm i wonder if there's a cool way to do it with automata
21:32:21 <shachaf> a new kind of crossword puzzle
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21:40:27 <Phantom_Hoover> we know column 4 contains 2 As, and a C or a D in its second row
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21:42:43 <olsner> most of the boxes contain one A, B, C or D
21:47:38 <fizzie> I think there are some +s in those regular expressions that are meaningless, except perhaps psychologically implying that there ought to be more than one.
21:48:03 <fizzie> E.g. I think A+.* and A.* would describe the same languages.
21:48:09 <oerjan> fizzie: i thought so too
21:48:51 <oerjan> olsner: wait i was assuming there was exactly one letter in each box :P
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21:51:52 <olsner> oerjan: oh my, what a silly assumption!
21:58:13 <Sgeo> The guy in the video that I'm watching is saying that the anti-static bag is "non-conductive material"
22:00:16 <ais523> Sgeo: that's the opposite of reality, isn't it? IIRC anti-static bags are as conductive as possible
22:00:16 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:00:20 <lambdabot> elliott asked 3h 32m 40s ago: can you look at the newest wave of spam pages? looks filterable
22:00:42 <Sgeo> ais523, the guy is going on a rant about it
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22:01:54 <Sgeo> He has a video called anti-static mythbuster
22:01:57 <Sgeo> This should be interesting
22:03:31 <Sgeo> I think what's going on is he hears myths "It's bad to put electronics on top of an anti-static bag because the bag is conductive", sees and tests that no harm comes from it, then decides that it's "the bag is conductive" that is the problematic part
22:04:31 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTGar7aoLDs
22:07:27 <oerjan> wtf i've made an error
22:08:25 <Sgeo> oerjan's first ever error was thinking he made an error.
22:08:29 <ais523> elliott: I've installed a filter that catches and automatically blocks every spambot we've had recently
22:08:33 <ais523> and should have few false positives
22:09:10 <ais523> if the filter is hit, the user who hits it is taken to a page that looks like a submit edit form, with a warning not to submit; the submit button blocks them
22:09:23 -!- WeThePeople has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:09:24 <oerjan> ais523: i see lots of spam on the wiki
22:09:36 <ais523> oerjan: I know, did you see the message from elliott?
22:09:45 <Sgeo> ais523, you assume that people actually read.
22:09:46 <ais523> I've been configuring the spam filter to try to automatically deal with it
22:09:56 <ais523> Sgeo: well if there's a user acting like a spambot and not reading messages
22:10:10 <ais523> they're indistinguishable from a spambot anyway
22:10:11 * Sgeo wants to see this warning
22:10:22 <ais523> Sgeo: http://esolangs.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Abusefilter-spambotlike-warning
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22:11:09 <Bike> i don't get those instructions. go me
22:11:43 <ais523> Bike: what don't you get about them?
22:12:43 <Bike> "please make an edit elsewhere..." "There is a button on this page to submit the edit". "this page" implies it should be the abusefilter page, to me
22:13:05 <ais523> Bike: that message shows on the top of an edit page
22:13:13 <ais523> you're seeing it out of context because you aren't a spambot
22:13:53 <Bike> well then wait, it tells me to go edit another page, but then don't save "that edit"
22:14:00 <Bike> where what you mean to say is don't save /this/ edit
22:15:55 <Bike> yeah, i think so
22:16:02 <Sgeo> Instead of watching this video I''m going to go read
22:16:38 <Bike> still seems a bit overcomplicated, non-fuckedimage captchas i see are usually more like "what's the next number in this sequence", but i'm not an admin, so i dunno how well that works. anyway brb vampirism
22:16:53 <ais523> I'm attacking two regularities in the spambots' posting: a) they always try to edit their userpage first, b) they seem to be using some sort of wikitext generation library that uses <br> tags in a way that humans rarely use
22:16:57 <elliott> that warning only shows if you do suspicious things
22:17:57 <ais523> the current way to trigger it is to use a sequence of <br> tags with no surrounding whitespace, in your first edit ever, to a userpage, and have no newlines anywhere in the page
22:18:09 <ais523> most humans will use \n\n for paragraphing, not <br><br>
22:19:04 <ais523> and the sort of page with markup complicated enough to want <br> will almost certainly contain paragraphing or headings elsewhere on the page
22:19:15 <ais523> even without the "new user" restriction, I don't think we get false positives
22:19:41 <elliott> ais523: do you mind if i make the warning more red
22:19:49 <elliott> I am just wary about giving people a block themselves button like that
22:19:54 <elliott> since they might not notice the warning
22:19:59 <ais523> I tend to not make warnings too colorful because then they hit my mental ad blocker
22:20:03 <ais523> they can also appeal on their user talk page
22:20:14 <ais523> finally, we have a log of things that hit the filter
22:20:23 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:20:26 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:AbuseLog
22:20:30 <ais523> so we can check for false positives manually
22:22:35 <oerjan> nooodl: i keep reaching a contradiction D:
22:23:32 <oerjan> one possible thing: those regexes are meant to match the _whole_ line, aren't they?
22:24:53 <fizzie> I made a solve, and submitted it to the TEACHER a moment ago.
22:24:54 <ais523> oh, oerjan isn't talking about the spam filter
22:25:02 <ais523> the question was reasonable in that context too
22:25:03 <fizzie> But it's possible I misthinked something.
22:25:21 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Gothlaw_The_Witching_Hour_The_Bitchin_Hour&action=edit&redlink=1
22:25:25 <elliott> someone please make this spam title esolang
22:25:56 <elliott> "And yes, we will talk about about these Fleshlight. Nothing was heard about her Fleshlight from one of the most confusing things in our lives. I continue to worry that the new fleshlight Girls."
22:26:37 <Jafet> That looks hard to write an interpreter for.
22:28:23 <kmc> The Bitcoin Hour
22:28:47 <Fiora> is that like the Dark Hour is persona 3?
22:29:12 <Fiora> at midnight, time stops and everyone turns into bitcoins
22:29:26 <Fiora> and bitcoin scammers and hackers roam the streets and steal your wallets
22:29:31 <kmc> salvia trip idea: everyone turns into bitcoins
22:31:07 <fizzie> When you hit the P switch, all bitcoins turn into blocks, and then you can jump on them.
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22:38:22 <oerjan> fizzie: the one you solved, was it with 1 down being (.)(?!.+\1)[^B]+.* which i think was a final change?
22:41:36 <fizzie> oerjan: I think so. It was that .png version.
22:45:08 <oerjan> fizzie: to be precise, i interpret that clue as "there cannot be an A in the last two rows of the first column, nor a B in the second row of the first column
22:45:29 <oerjan> so if you have either of those, that might explain it
22:47:45 <fizzie> I don't have an A in the last two rows, nor a B in the second.
22:48:21 <fizzie> (And I interpret it the same way. Though you spoiled the top-left corner!)
22:48:47 <oerjan> it wasn't precisely a hard corner to find :P
22:48:50 <shachaf> I think I spoiled the whole puzzle already.
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22:58:45 <oerjan> fizzie: you don't have D,B,C down the second column do you? (that's what i get as a contradiction)
22:59:51 <oerjan> well, the B above the C
23:01:18 <shachaf> I liked the old 1↓ clue better.
23:03:07 <shachaf> oerjan: Did you use the clue that there's a unique solution?
23:03:11 <oerjan> what i just asked fizzie was a misreading
23:07:21 <fizzie> I did not use that clue either.
23:07:45 <fizzie> And no, I don't have DBC in the second column.
23:08:02 <shachaf> Use: /last  to see my solution.
23:09:01 <fizzie> Or maybe I do have DBC there and can't read my mousewriting.
23:09:35 <fizzie> (How's DBC in 2 down a contradiction?)
23:09:45 <oerjan> that's good, because i realized that wasn't an error anyway. i must have messed up 2 down and 2 diagonal at some point. repeatedly.
23:11:03 <fizzie> Come to think of it, dbc hasn't been around in a while.
23:11:22 <fizzie> Perhaps he's been stuck in 2 down all this time.
23:12:53 <shachaf> But you didn't use my nifty extra clue.
23:13:10 <oerjan> well i have a D instead of your period.
23:13:31 <shachaf> That's because you're using the new 1↓ clue.
23:13:39 <shachaf> I was using the old one, which left it ambiguous between A and D.
23:14:34 <oerjan> food -> oh, and laundry ->
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23:28:01 <fizzie> I agree with you folks there.
23:28:31 <fizzie> Except mine is done in https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130320-regexsol.png HIGH FIDELITY.
23:28:55 <nooodl> whoops, i was gone for a while
23:29:19 <nooodl> fizzie's solution is correct
23:37:22 <ion> …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
23:42:55 <oerjan> 16:52:42: <shachaf> oerjan: Next up, you can make an uncountable bounded shape which is congruent to a subset of itself.
23:42:58 <oerjan> 16:52:56: <shachaf> (It's the same idea.)
23:43:03 <oerjan> still without the axiom of choice?
23:43:14 <oerjan> hm i guess as long as it is zero measure
23:45:12 <oerjan> {r*e^(in) | 0 < r < 1, n natural}
23:45:41 <oerjan> but can you manage with just the unit circle?
23:45:56 <nooodl> haha my brother walked in on me staring at this regex puzzle a couple of minutes ago
23:46:03 <nooodl> he asked, "what's that, a sudoku?"
23:46:31 <nooodl> seriously. imagine if i made a 9x9 sudoku/regex crossword puzzle
23:46:34 <elliott> you weirdos and your siblings
23:46:55 <nooodl> siblings are pretty good imo
23:47:45 <oerjan> imo i don't think you have any, elliott?
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23:49:44 <nooodl> everyone who participated in solving my little puzzle thingy should try to make one theirselves! tons of fun guaranteed
23:50:47 <ion> 1 diagonally: B+
23:51:15 <Arc_Koen> HEY GUYS I JUST HAD THREE CUPS OF COFFEE AND THESE CAPS ARE NOT NEARLY ENOUGH TO REFLECT HOW I REALLY FEEL
23:51:24 <nooodl> i'm going to bed now but i expect at least 15 of them in my lambdabot inbox when i get back!!
23:51:47 <Arc_Koen> send my apologies to the third o
23:51:57 <Arc_Koen> or maybe the missing o was one of the first two
23:52:20 <nooodl> i'm sometimes "nooodle" too which is fun
23:52:34 <nooodl> apparently reading is hard? apparently reading my name is hard at least
23:52:50 <Jafet> Help I mapped my tab key to capslock
23:52:56 <Arc_Koen> I get that a lot when I have to spell my name to someone
23:53:24 <Arc_Koen> and they answer "yeah yeah I know" and write stephane
23:53:46 <nooodl> (huh i was guessing your name would be "koen")
23:54:03 <Arc_Koen> also Koen isn't the right spelling
23:54:26 <Arc_Koen> it's the spelling I use when I'm being incognito on the internet
23:54:35 <Arc_Koen> do you say incognito in english?
23:54:42 <Arc_Koen> wow, that's even worse a spelling
23:54:56 <Arc_Koen> "when i'm being incognito" felt wrong
23:55:10 <Arc_Koen> you can try many spellings and maybe in a few hours we'll reach the good one
23:55:19 <Arc_Koen> Jafet: I reckon it's in mexico
23:55:35 <Arc_Koen> Phantom_Hoover: also my real name figures somewhere on the wiki
23:58:11 <Arc_Koen> sooo nooodl you were talking about a puzzle
23:58:37 <oerjan> i conclude from the logs that the average esolanger has a heavy mantle to bear
23:58:51 <Fiora> is that because the average esolanger is like, inside the earth
23:59:25 <nooodl> Arc_Koen: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/15495351/regex.html
23:59:36 <oerjan> but she needs to work on not explaining jokes
23:59:56 <Arc_Koen> for some reason I knew it wasn't going to be an everybody puzzle
23:59:56 <Fiora> oh. that was. actually a joke
23:59:57 <shachaf> Fiora did you explain a joke again
00:00:11 <elliott> joke guide: A: did oerjan say it
00:00:29 <Arc_Koen> Fiora: I do thank you though I wouldn't have got it
00:00:43 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: Careful with logreading if you intend to puzzle it out, there's a solution in there.
00:01:20 <shachaf> the solution is AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
00:01:51 <Arc_Koen> I noticed a few occurrences of weird sequences of symbols
00:02:19 <Sgeo> Did someone say AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA?
00:02:21 <Arc_Koen> truth is I'm not fluent with regexes
00:02:22 <Sgeo> http://images.uncyclomedia.co/uncyclopedia/en/7/7d/Win98-minesweeper-lose.PNG
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00:03:13 <Arc_Koen> if the latter, does it have to be the same anything or can they be different anythings?
00:03:41 <Arc_Koen> also what would be the difference between (.) and .+ or .* then
00:04:12 <shachaf> (.) is the thing \1 refers to in this case.
00:04:13 <Arc_Koen> or does (.) just mean "one anything" and the brackets were just there to prevent the . from meaning something else
00:04:23 <fizzie> But it's a capturing thing.
00:04:44 <fizzie> \1 means the contents of the first ().
00:04:49 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
00:05:00 <Arc_Koen> does it mean "zero or one A, followed by any sequence
00:05:04 <fizzie> A+.* is equivalent to A.* :p
00:05:32 <fizzie> It means "one or more A, followed by zero or more anything".
00:05:59 <Arc_Koen> so you're saying there is an A in the first box
00:06:22 <Arc_Koen> (is "cell" what you would call one thingy on a chessboard?)
00:06:56 <oerjan> iirc from last it came up
00:06:57 <fizzie> On chessboard, I think... right, what oerjan saidl
00:07:52 <Arc_Koen> also I assume | has lower precedence that everything else
00:07:56 <fizzie> But in a crossword, cell isn't a bad word.
00:08:24 <Arc_Koen> in french we say "case" for *everything*
00:10:27 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: The most unusual feature is that 1 down, where A(?!B)C means "AC, except after A, attempting to match B there must fail".
00:11:02 <fizzie> It's a zero-width negative lookahead assertion.
00:11:03 <Arc_Koen> "AC, except after A, attempting to match B there must fail"? or did I miss a special character
00:11:29 <Arc_Koen> "hang on, that sentence is difficult to process"
00:12:14 <Arc_Koen> ok no I have no idea what you meant
00:12:46 <fizzie> Well, "match A, then fail to match B, then do match C", if you like; but failing B has no effect on the position.
00:13:25 <Arc_Koen> because we know that C doesn't match B
00:13:53 <fizzie> That was meant with any pattern in place of A, B and C.
00:14:01 <fizzie> In that literal case, sure.
00:14:20 <Arc_Koen> well truth is I really don't know enough about regexes
00:14:30 <fizzie> Perhaps I should've used something else than exacty those letters of the alphabet.
00:15:05 <Arc_Koen> so (?xxx) means "not xxx" right?
00:15:24 <nooodl^> ill ruin it by writing it in English maybe...
00:15:52 <Arc_Koen> and you told me \1 is refering to .
00:16:27 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: It would match XYZ and XXZ but not XYX.
00:16:31 <Arc_Koen> so "fail to match two or more anythings"?
00:16:47 <fizzie> It's referring to what the . matched.
00:16:53 <Arc_Koen> oh wait, \1 isn't the same thing as ., it is the same thing as the pattern matched by the first .
00:17:39 <nooodl^> its equivalent to .[^B]+.* but the last two chars are different from the first
00:17:41 <fizzie> "After the first letter, there must not be a copy of it with one or more any character between; and what follows the first character is not B."
00:18:06 <myndzi> (?!xxx) means "not followed by xxx"
00:18:21 <fizzie> It means that at that position, attempting to match xxx must fail.
00:18:21 <myndzi> it's a zero-width assertion, which means it doesn't "eat" the characters it matches
00:18:33 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: It most definitely is not.
00:18:54 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: (^xxx) means "^ followed by xxx", FWIW.
00:19:14 <fizzie> ^ only has special meanings inside character classes.
00:19:15 <Arc_Koen> what? I though (^xxx) meant "something not xxx"
00:19:16 <myndzi> (?!xxx)[xy]{3} would match xxy xyx yxx yyx xyy but not xxx
00:19:24 <Arc_Koen> ohhhh () and [] are not the same
00:19:25 <myndzi> ^ means not inside a character class
00:19:33 <myndzi> outside that it means beginning of line
00:20:36 <Arc_Koen> "a repetition of the third character"?
00:20:51 <myndzi> so [xy]{3} means "any of: x, y; three times in a row"
00:21:01 <myndzi> and the (?!xxx) makes it fail on xxx
00:21:25 <myndzi> it's not really very useful to use a negative lookahead on static text ;)
00:21:28 <Arc_Koen> is that a special meaning of ?!
00:21:28 <fizzie> Anyhow, what's kind of also important about (?!xxx) is that it doesn't actually match anything, so it doesn't "move" the "current position".
00:21:48 <myndzi> yeah, i was trying to come up with an example to demonstrate that but i realized it was hard
00:22:06 <myndzi> but in my example, the (!?xxx) is examining the same characters as the [xy]{3}
00:22:09 <fizzie> It's a special meaning of (?! -- the parentheses are mandatory.
00:22:28 <myndzi> in fact (?stuff) is a general special context for ()
00:22:33 <fizzie> In general, (?xxx) is used for all kinds of extensions.
00:22:42 <myndzi> (?:text) is non-capturing, (?<=text) is positive lookbehind, etc.
00:23:00 <myndzi> haha now i'm just redundant
00:23:53 <Arc_Koen> so (.)(?!.+\1)[^B]+.* is "anything (call it X), then don't be followed by several anythings followed by X, then (anything but B, one or more times), then (anything, zero or more times)"
00:24:17 <myndzi> there are some caveats to using zero width assertions
00:24:22 <fizzie> Yes, though the "or more" for B is redundant again.
00:24:26 <myndzi> backwards assertions must be a static width
00:24:35 <coppro> Arc_Koen: consume no input
00:24:39 <myndzi> "zero width" because it doesn't consume characters
00:24:54 <myndzi> zero width is a characteristic
00:24:55 <Arc_Koen> just a distinction from lookbehind?
00:25:04 <myndzi> lookahead matches on following characters
00:25:08 <myndzi> lookbehind matches on previous characters
00:25:18 <Arc_Koen> ok, I was confused because I thought lookahead meant no consumption
00:25:20 <myndzi> anyway, things like .+ are generally not a good idea in lookahead/lookbehind
00:25:30 <myndzi> lookahead "doesn't consume"
00:25:34 <myndzi> lookbehind "doesn't consume"
00:25:38 <myndzi> "zero width" means "doesn't consume"
00:25:59 <fizzie> The "doesn't have a width" is perhaps more confusing for positive lookahead, where aa(?=..c)bb. matches "aabbc".
00:26:07 <Arc_Koen> I thought maybe "lookahead" meant "look into the future but stay into the present" or something
00:26:16 <Arc_Koen> instead of actually going to the future
00:26:24 <myndzi> it doesn't "go" anywhere
00:26:24 <fizzie> It's kind of natural for the negative case, which doesn't after all match anything.
00:26:32 <myndzi> it basically does mean "look ahead but stay here"
00:26:50 <myndzi> the way it "goes" into the future is by consuming input
00:26:51 <Arc_Koen> wait, I thought "but stay here" was the meaning of zero-width
00:27:05 <Arc_Koen> ok yeah we may be saying the same things with different words
00:27:05 <myndzi> let me try it another way
00:27:07 <myndzi> zero-width is a category
00:27:13 <myndzi> lookahead and lookbehind are members of that category
00:27:16 <myndzi> neither of them consume input
00:27:24 <Bike> wow we'r estill on regexcchat
00:27:26 <myndzi> not consuming input is a characteristic of 'zero-width assertions'
00:27:39 <myndzi> lookahead/lookbehind inherit that characteristic but are more specific
00:27:42 <Arc_Koen> yes, but I mean we could have "one-width lookahead" for instance
00:28:00 <Arc_Koen> then saying "zero-width lookahead" is redundant
00:28:01 <myndzi> zero-width refers to the expression not consuming characters
00:28:06 <myndzi> so it's not saying "look zero ahead"
00:28:21 <myndzi> it's saying "look ahead for something that matches this, but don't do anything other than succeed or fail"
00:28:30 <myndzi> imagine it like the I-cursor
00:28:37 <myndzi> that's what zero-width is referring to
00:28:38 <ais523> myndzi: I was trying to invent my own regex-like esolang
00:28:47 <ais523> it had negative-width assertions, that actually added characters to the input
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00:29:16 <myndzi> i was watching some show the other day
00:29:20 <myndzi> and it actually referenced malbolge
00:29:23 <myndzi> i was fuckin' impressed
00:29:40 <myndzi> of course, then they ruined it by doing the typical tv/movie nonsense
00:29:40 <ais523> I think that was mentioned in-channel at the time
00:30:05 <myndzi> i guess i could have expected that haha
00:30:08 <myndzi> i just don't remember where i saw it
00:30:34 <Arc_Koen> so in proper english (.)(?!.+\1)[^B]+.* is "none of the last three characters match the first character and the second character is not B
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00:30:55 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: The second character can match the first.
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00:31:10 <myndzi> so you can't say anything about the "last characters"
00:31:25 <myndzi> i know you're trying to come up with an example of how to use (?!text)
00:31:26 <Arc_Koen> yeah but the (?! ) thingy dealt with that already
00:31:31 <fizzie> myndzi: These are all four-character strings.
00:31:35 <myndzi> but most of the time it's better to construct it in another way
00:31:35 <Arc_Koen> no it's the example from the puzzle
00:31:38 <myndzi> ah, i didn't see the beginning
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00:31:56 <myndzi> i would probably write
00:31:57 <Arc_Koen> so i already know it's four characters and only A, B, C and D
00:32:12 <Arc_Koen> and the restriction for that one is (.)(?!.+\1)[^B]+.*
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00:32:57 <myndzi> that will: capture the first character assigning it to \1, test that the second character is not B, then match three more characters that are not \1
00:33:07 <Arc_Koen> so unless I really don't understand (?!xxx), I read the (?!.+\1) part as meaning "the last two characters cannot match the first one"
00:33:25 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: Anyway, in "XXYZ" you match X with the (.), then in the assertion you have essentially .+X against XYZ, and since the .+ always consumes the first and only X, that doesn't match, and the assertion doesn't fire.
00:33:29 <myndzi> yeah, i have no idea why you put .+ in there
00:33:38 <myndzi> but it's usually a sign that you shouldn't be using lookahead
00:34:03 <Arc_Koen> well he's definitely trying to be confusing
00:34:25 <oerjan> <myndzi> i just don't remember where i saw it <-- wikipedia's Malbolge article mentions it. (i helped with the edits.)
00:35:12 <myndzi> what's this regex puzzle?
00:35:22 <Arc_Koen> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/15495351/regex.html
00:35:23 <myndzi> i remember making a series of "encryption" challenges once
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00:35:32 <myndzi> i imagine you guys would own them fairly quickly
00:35:41 <myndzi> but the mirc scripters in the channel had a hard time with stuff i thought would be cake
00:35:51 <fizzie> myndzi: How would you write it without .+ in the lookahead?
00:35:55 <myndzi> you input text and it outputs encoded text, and you have to describe what to do
00:36:22 <myndzi> fizzie: i didn't know what he was trying to match, i was only looking at what he wrote and what he said
00:36:42 <myndzi> "none of the last three characters match the first character" doesn't need a lookahead
00:36:51 <Arc_Koen> [^AC] eats two characters right?
00:36:59 <myndzi> [] is always one character
00:37:02 <myndzi> or however many you modify it to be
00:37:10 <myndzi> WHICH characters are acceptable are specified inside
00:37:29 <myndzi> in the case of only ABCD in the input, yeah
00:38:33 <myndzi> btw anyone interested in the encryption things just for fun?
00:38:41 <myndzi> pretty sure i still have em
00:39:48 <ais523> Arc_Koen: I take it all those regexes are anchored?
00:40:07 <myndzi> i assumed it was the case
00:40:10 <myndzi> but that's a good point
00:40:13 <Arc_Koen> not sure what anchored means but that sounds right
00:40:24 <ais523> Arc_Koen: implied ^ at the start and $ at the end
00:40:31 <Arc_Koen> does it mean there's an implicit "beginning of line" at the beginning, and implicit "end of line" at the end
00:40:44 <Arc_Koen> well I most certainly assumed so
00:41:07 <myndzi> ah, i wasn't assuming the $
00:41:38 <ais523> actually that makes it impossible
00:48:24 <myndzi> i see. so that regex, Arc_Koen, i believe means: "anything, followed by 1 or more not-Bs followed by anything"
00:48:31 <myndzi> where whatever the first character is cannot be used in the rest
00:48:44 <Arc_Koen> 1) third and fourth both different from first, and second is not B
00:49:07 <myndzi> er, yeah, because of .+
00:49:25 <myndzi> but there can be 1 or more not-bs too
00:49:38 <Arc_Koen> yup, but "one or more" is the same as "one" here
00:49:46 <Arc_Koen> because it's followed by anything anyway
00:50:00 <myndzi> oh, i suppose you can look at it that way
00:50:21 <myndzi> that's definitely the confusing one, so the puzzle probably hinges on it :P
00:53:40 <Arc_Koen> ok so I've already found 11, 13, 54 and 74
00:54:27 <Arc_Koen> apparently I did something wrong
00:54:42 <Arc_Koen> 5) looks like this so far: 5 ( CD) (ABCD) (AB D) ( C )
00:54:53 <Arc_Koen> and restriction is "5) in alphabetical order"
00:55:39 <Arc_Koen> oh the first cell from that row can be an A
00:56:02 <Sgeo> asdfjaskdfsakldf I thought I had a build for a good PC at around $1000, but I forgot the PSU
00:57:25 <myndzi> i'm not sure that $ is implied
00:57:39 <myndzi> i seem to have hit an impossibility by that rule
00:57:51 <ais523> myndzi: well if it isn't, clues like A*B*C*D* are pointless
00:57:53 <Arc_Koen> nooodl: are your regexes anchored?
00:57:58 <ais523> because a zero-length string matches that
00:58:19 <myndzi> ah, i think i see my mistake
01:00:34 <Lumpio-> I liked the hexagonal one that was around teh internets a while ago
01:04:04 <Arc_Koen> down 3) first and second are not C; fourth is equal to first
01:04:35 <Arc_Koen> and so far that column looks like (D) (AB) (BC) (AB)
01:05:05 <myndzi> is there an answer key?
01:06:00 <Arc_Koen> does the \1 matchs the thing that's matched by (.) ?
01:06:08 <Arc_Koen> I thought it matched the thing matched by [^C]
01:06:16 <Arc_Koen> gaaaaaaaah have to do it all over again
01:06:21 <Bike> no, it's the last group, and groups are spelled with ().
01:06:40 <myndzi> damn nope, missed one thing
01:08:25 <myndzi> i goofed aligning a diagonal
01:11:29 <Arc_Koen> well I've got everything except 12, 52 and 53
01:12:59 <Arc_Koen> nooodl: is the solution unique?
01:13:41 <Arc_Koen> I think I've got a total of six possible solutions
01:14:34 <Arc_Koen> elliott: can I show you my english interpretations of the regexes and you would be so kind as to tell me if one is wrong?
01:14:58 <elliott> by "iirc" I mean I am just parroting what I remember nooodl saying about it, I don't even know the regexps involved :)
01:16:45 <Arc_Koen> (spoilers) http://pastebin.com/pyaiJuM8
01:17:05 <myndzi> i'm coming to agreement, i think there may be multiples
01:17:14 <myndzi> ha, i should make a script to test solutions
01:17:55 <Arc_Koen> myndzi: do you agree that cells 12, 52 and 53 are the ones that have multiple answers?
01:18:30 <myndzi> are we looking at the same puzzle?
01:19:13 <Arc_Koen> well yes; rows are numbered 1 5 6 7 and columns 1 2 3 4
01:19:18 <myndzi> i have an answer for 5/3
01:19:37 <myndzi> doesn't mean it's right
01:19:46 <myndzi> do you even want me to say? :P
01:19:48 <Arc_Koen> with the restriction that 52 can be either A or B, but if 52 is B then 53 is B
01:20:09 <Arc_Koen> (because line 5 is alphabetical)
01:20:49 <Arc_Koen> myndzi: well if you can tell me where I'm wrong without telling me the solution I'd be glad yes
01:21:04 <myndzi> i have no idea where you're wrong lol
01:21:12 <myndzi> i'm not going to follow your work it may pollute my mind :V
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01:21:15 <myndzi> i'm writing a script to test
01:21:18 <myndzi> then you can test all you like
01:22:25 <Arc_Koen> then we have very different grids
01:23:40 * Arc_Koen myndzi: so here is why I stroke D out in 53.
01:24:20 <Arc_Koen> vertical 3) is "first and second are not C; fourth is equal to third"
01:25:00 <Arc_Koen> and horizontal 5) is "in alphabetical order" so if fourth is C, then third cannot be D
01:25:05 <fungot> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
01:27:51 <Arc_Koen> since there are four characters, [^C]*(.)\1 is equivalent to [^C]{2}(.)\1 right?
01:29:00 <Arc_Koen> which means "first and second are not C, and third = fourth"
01:30:23 <oerjan> btw i got a unique solution once i stopped making a stupid error.
01:31:20 <myndzi> they're always stupid errors ;)
01:31:46 <oerjan> well the stupid was i made it again at least twice on retrying
01:32:02 <myndzi> !repuzzle ABCD ABCD ABCD ABCD
01:32:02 <myndzi> Fail 6a: /^.*(BB|BC|CA)$/ - ABCD
01:32:21 <myndzi> i hope that's right, hehe
01:32:25 <myndzi> now to go back to trying to solve
01:34:21 <myndzi> so yeah. i was interpreting diagonal 3 as diagonal 6
01:36:06 <Arc_Koen> I really don't see any way to cross out any of the six solutions I've got
01:36:26 <Arc_Koen> which probably means I have a mistake somewhere and all six are wrong
01:37:21 <oerjan> well they cannot be wrong unless there is a regex they violate, hth
01:37:33 <ais523> try running one through !repuzzle?
01:37:37 <ais523> in PM if you don't want to spoil it?
01:37:48 <myndzi> it's a channel trigger
01:37:48 <ais523> oh, not in this channel :)
01:38:03 <myndzi> it's spammy to trigger my own pm triggers
01:38:19 <myndzi> note: the script may not be correct, so lemme know if it reports something wrong
01:38:34 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
01:38:35 <myndzi> also case sensitive, one sec
01:39:17 <myndzi> nah i just scripted it up real quick
01:39:37 <myndzi> http://pastebin.com/YgTUy34B
01:41:37 <myndzi> ah, found my mistake too
01:41:50 <Arc_Koen> 2) first is B or D; if there's a C then all that follows is C as well
01:41:58 <myndzi> treating [^C]* as (.\1*)?
01:42:22 <Arc_Koen> actually is "cut the line in two; first part is Bs and Ds and second part is Cs"
01:42:41 <Arc_Koen> I must have read it as [^AC].*C*
01:46:42 <Arc_Koen> thank you everyone for your help :)
01:47:29 <Arc_Koen> so now I know regexes? if someone has a similar puzzle that'll teach me chinese in a few minutes... :p
01:48:03 <Bike> now read the email regex
01:48:44 <ais523> Bike: it doesn't handle nested comments
01:48:50 <ais523> (also IIRC it's automatically generated)
01:48:53 <Bike> Arc_Koen: http://www.ex-parrot.com/pdw/Mail-RFC822-Address.html
01:50:06 <ais523> Bike: (the correct followup to this is "why do email addresses allow nested comments anyway?")
01:50:13 <Arc_Koen> that looks like something I don't wanna try to read
01:50:27 <Jafet> More languages should allow nested comments
01:51:00 <Bike> ais523: I thought about it, but I've learned that learning more about old protocols implies SAN loss.
01:51:33 <Arc_Koen> do you mean if I try to use thunderbird to send an email to oer/*com/*ment*/*/jan/*hello*/@nu.nvg is will work?
01:51:45 <ais523> Arc_Koen: () is used for comments in email
01:52:09 <ais523> also you can escape the ( and ) as \( and \) to stop them matching
01:52:24 <oerjan> moreover, my email domain isn't nu.nvg hth
01:52:28 <ais523> I do this in my email on Slashdot, it does great against spambots
01:52:30 <Arc_Koen> assuming my email address contains a ( or ) character?
01:52:45 <oerjan> (there are several alternative forms, but that isn't one of them)
01:52:47 <ais523> Arc_Koen: or if you want to put ( or ) inside the comment
01:52:57 <ais523> many email clients can't handle comments, even fewer handle nested comments
01:53:03 <ais523> there are clients that follow the spec properly, though
01:53:31 <Arc_Koen> "but they have only 3.5 users, all living in the same building"
01:54:47 <Bike> i assume you mean that the half user has integrated their other half into sendmail
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01:55:20 <kmc> when i first saw this I thought you were talking about some esolang named "email"
01:55:23 <kmc> but oh god
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01:56:24 <Bike> so on a related note, does anybody know float contagion rules in some real language stupidly well, because now i'm curious
01:56:33 <kmc> what's that
01:56:38 <Jafet> kmc: you are right
01:56:54 <Bike> like what's 4 :: Int + 7 :: Floating do i guess
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01:57:05 <Bike> sometimes you convert one into the other, or it's specified that the result is of so and so type
01:57:32 <kmc> okay I know the JavaScript rule well: "all numbers are doubles" hth
01:57:35 <elliott> Bike: Floating isn't a type..................................
01:57:43 <elliott> and haskell has no implicit conversions
01:57:45 <ais523> Bike: OCaml's rule is really straightforward
01:57:50 <oerjan> i know the haskell rule well: it doesn't convert anything
01:57:52 <ais523> it has an integer + and a floating-point +.
01:58:00 <ais523> giving an integer to +. or a float to + causes a compile-time error
01:58:01 <Bike> so you can't add ints to floats
01:58:10 <ais523> not without converting by hand, in OCaml or Haskell
01:58:10 <Jafet> But, but these aren't REAL LANGUAGES
01:58:38 <Jafet> It's not a real language unless you can gouge out your left kidney with it
01:58:48 <ais523> OK; in asm, it has separate integer add and floating-point add
01:58:50 <oerjan> well a REAL LANGUAGE would surely use REAL NUMBERS
01:58:53 <Arc_Koen> Bike: I assume most languages would have some rule along the lines of "types are ordered something like float > int > whatever, and the type of an expression is the maximum of the types of its subexpressions"
01:58:55 <Bike> forget i asked
01:58:59 <kmc> i can never quite remember C's rules... cases like uint8_t x = ...; uint32_t y = (x * 20) + 15;
01:59:03 <ais523> and if you use the wrong one, it'll either complain that you're using the wrong registers, or misinterpret the bit pattern
01:59:05 <Bike> (that's kind of a crappy order, though, i will say)
01:59:06 <ais523> of the value it finds there
01:59:08 <oerjan> not those fishy computable things
01:59:11 <Jafet> oerjan: only imaginary languages use real numbers hth
01:59:12 <kmc> is that multiplication / addition done on uint8 or uint32
01:59:22 <ais523> kmc: either uint8 or plain int, I forget which
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02:00:29 <kmc> https://www.securecoding.cert.org/confluence/display/seccode/INT02-C.+Understand+integer+conversion+rules
02:00:29 <Jafet> uint8_t is secretly a typedef for unsigned char so the value of x becomes an int (not unsigned int!!) when used in any kind of arithmetic
02:00:37 <Arc_Koen> Bike: so for instance (int 3) * (int 4) + (float 5) would evaluate to (int 12) + (float 5) then to (float 17)
02:00:38 <kmc> yeah i see
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02:00:50 <kmc> even adding two chars is done on ints, then truncated
02:00:57 <kmc> semantically
02:01:03 <kmc> interesting
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02:01:29 <Jafet> I wonder if you can make security holes with this
02:01:36 <elliott> i cannot fathom why uint8_t is not separate
02:01:50 <Jafet> Because WE ALREADY HAVE A TYPE FOR THAT
02:01:54 <kmc> And Moses said unto them that day, "The rank of long long int shall be greater than the rank of long int, which shall be greater than the rank of int, which shall be greater than the rank of short int, which shall be greater than the rank of signed char."
02:02:06 <kmc> Jafet: always
02:02:59 <ais523> kmc: what happens if int and char are the same width?
02:03:19 <kmc> there are other rank rules though
02:03:25 <ais523> although that wouldn't happen with uint8_t, it could happen with unsigned plain char
02:04:22 <Jafet> No one is going to make that platform, because C code will break on it
02:04:58 <ais523> Jafet: such platforms exist already
02:05:04 <ais523> digital signal processors, mostly
02:05:16 <ais523> they're heavily specialized for 32-bit processing and don't have anything smaller
02:05:57 <pikhq> They also generally have very, very dedicated environments and it's not worth thinking about.
02:05:58 <kmc> so what's sizeof(char) on such platform
02:06:03 <kmc> doesn't that have to be 1?
02:06:07 <pikhq> kmc: Necessarily 1.
02:06:19 <Jafet> ais523: also crays
02:07:10 <kmc> okay so "promotion" and "conversion" are different
02:08:13 <kmc> Jafet: you can get great security holes from the fact that 'char' can be signed
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02:08:57 <Bike> signed char is like my main reason for not understanding what the fuck C is
02:09:50 <Jafet> kmc: yeah but everyone knows that one already
02:10:01 <Jafet> (that was a figure of speech obviously)
02:10:09 <kmc> int count[256]; void f(char *str) { while (*str) count[*(str++)]++; }
02:10:16 <kmc> Jafet: well i didn't know it until i did
02:10:39 <kmc> writing an exploit for that was pretty fun
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02:11:29 <Jafet> One thing I didn't know
02:11:31 <ais523> kmc: gcc complains about any use of plain char to index arrays
02:11:34 <ais523> probably because of that
02:11:37 <Jafet> is that the PLT contains executable code
02:11:45 <Jafet> and that this is By Design
02:11:47 <kmc> ais523: good
02:12:03 <kmc> not just executable code but self-modifying code :<
02:12:14 <Bike> best kind of code
02:12:19 <ais523> yeah, executable code is kind-of common
02:12:23 <ais523> and more useful than nonexecutable code
02:12:39 <kmc> for better security one should link with ld -z relro -z now
02:12:42 <Bike> reminds me i just read that apparently PDP had some really weird idioms due to the XEC instruction
02:12:54 <Bike> which let you execute a register as an instruction, i guess?
02:12:56 <kmc> which will cause the GOT and PLT to be read-only after startup
02:13:29 <Bike> so you'd have routines that dispatched behavior on the value of a register, since you'd set that register to be some specific instruction
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02:14:46 <madbr> LLVM's assembler has bugs
02:14:59 <madbr> (when assembling for ARM)
02:15:37 <kmc> software has bugs
02:15:42 <kmc> always and everywhere
02:15:55 <kmc> it's a bug's life
02:16:03 <Bike> so presumably it's a notable bug if it's being mentioned.
02:16:30 <kmc> yeah i'm just being a smartass
02:16:47 <kmc> the great thing about ARM instruction sets is that there are so many to choose from
02:17:11 <Bike> and i'm just being bitter about having it assumed that i meant "real language" as some kind of haskell-related insult instead of just disambiguation from an email esolang. bitter bitter bitter
02:17:16 <madbr> yeah that seems to be the current design trend in cpu design
02:17:22 <Jafet> You can even choose at runtime
02:18:20 <Fiora> oh cool we're talking about instruction sets so I can post this thing
02:18:21 <Fiora> http://i.imgur.com/fjMhj0u.png
02:18:23 <elliott> Bike: i interpreted it like that bc yr code looked like hs
02:18:26 * Fiora is reading the xeon phi manual for fun
02:18:29 <madbr> base risc set then fpu then vector then vector fpu then stange corner cases like popcnt then another vector set then...
02:18:45 <Bike> elliott: yes that's because you corrupted me THANKS
02:19:21 <Bike> it's talking about implementing RPN with bla bla functions bla bla so i just started reading the haskell report.
02:19:47 <elliott> thats not going to pay off wrt whsat later chapters cover at all tho
02:19:56 <Fiora> oh wow this thing is crazy. every single memory operation has a "write-mask"
02:20:02 <kmc> Bike: we can be bitter together
02:20:06 <kmc> maybe we can get elliott in on it too
02:20:07 <Fiora> where it can say which of the 16 elements of the destination register are modified
02:20:20 <Fiora> er, not memory operation, every single register operation
02:20:23 <madbr> fiora : wow, what architecture is this on
02:20:27 <kmc> what's a phi manual
02:20:32 <kmc> or is phi a type of xeon
02:20:35 <Fiora> um, the phi is like, the successor to larrabee
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02:20:38 <Fiora> the intel many core architecture
02:20:40 <Fiora> with 512-bit zmm registers
02:20:46 <Bike> oh the next chapter is about applicative functors i.e. something i actually don't know, maybe i should pay attention except ????????
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02:21:00 <madbr> I thought larrabee died horribly
02:21:06 <Fiora> yeah, they made it into this instead I think
02:21:12 <Fiora> it is like a super float simd machine designed to make scientific computing people fangirl
02:21:28 <Fiora> with like all of the transcendental functions super fast and designed to be easy to autovectorize with and stuff
02:21:29 <madbr> kinda like the cell?
02:21:39 <Fiora> I guess a bit? no DMA thing though
02:21:42 <kmc> can't they just buy GPUs
02:21:53 <madbr> GPUs can't really do feedback
02:22:00 <Fiora> I think the idea is intel realized the larrabee was a really bad gpu but it was pretty good at raw compute so they did that instead?
02:22:11 <madbr> they're not very good for, say, sound calculation
02:22:21 <madbr> fiora: hah just like the cell
02:22:22 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/DGNF C has some weird little-used features.
02:22:29 <Fiora> madbr: wait, the cell had that too?
02:22:45 <Bike> pikhq: uhhhhh trigrams?
02:22:51 <ais523> that's just digraphs and trigraphs
02:22:58 <pikhq> ais523: Not entirely.
02:23:03 <pikhq> Check out iso646.h
02:23:06 <kmc> wait so is this "xeon phi" a core CPU that you would boot, or a peripheral thing, or like a functional unit on a Xeon
02:23:10 <madbr> I was referring to the cell being sony's plan for the ps3 gpu then they had to backtrack
02:23:24 <ais523> pikhq: I know iso646.h, it's the only standard header that's provided by gcc not glibc, for instance
02:23:26 <madbr> tbh this thing would be awesome for sound processing too
02:23:35 <pikhq> Apparently the iso646.h defines are *in the syntax* of C++.
02:23:45 <kmc> ok it's a PCIe card that looks like a GPU
02:23:50 <madbr> which is also a whole bunch of roughly vectorizable fpu math
02:23:52 <kmc> except without an elf dragon robot painted on
02:23:58 <Lymia> Evaluating population...
02:23:58 <Lymia> java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: empty.reduceLeft
02:24:04 <madbr> except with feedback loops so that totally rules out GPUs
02:24:17 <Lymia> Why the crap is it starting with an empty population o-o
02:24:37 <Fiora> it also apparentyl has 320GB/s of memory bandwidth O_O
02:24:56 <madbr> designing for throughput is cool
02:25:12 <madbr> it's not like designing for general purpose code
02:25:17 <kmc> i think what we all want to know is, how quickly will it make me rich in bitcoins
02:25:44 <madbr> general purpose code is horrible, horrible... lots of stores/loads to all sorts of random addresses and unpredictable jumps
02:25:57 <madbr> if you design for that you end up with the pentium2
02:26:04 <Bike> what would a core designed for bitcoin mining look like? let's take a moment to think about this
02:26:10 <madbr> and all its descendents
02:26:11 <Fiora> but just, wow. pow() in 4-cycles, with full accuracy
02:26:58 <Bike> what kind of code wants that, i'm curious
02:27:00 <madbr> P2's have that crazy ultra complicated out of order engine but can only do 4 operations per cycle :( :( :(
02:27:15 <Bike> maybe it would be nice for a shitload of sigmoids or something
02:27:16 <madbr> (3 on the ones before sandy bridge)
02:27:29 <Fiora> Bike: I'm guessing scientific computing stuff loves transcendental functions almost as much as I love sushi?
02:27:31 <madbr> the PENTIUM did 2 and came out in like 1994
02:27:43 <Bike> Fiora: i need specifics man. specifics
02:28:13 <Bike> i guess it would be kind of cool to read nnet source code that doesn't do some ridiculous integer operation instead of transcendentals
02:28:28 <Fiora> O_O it does a thing with a loop that does progressive approximation of a square root (as an example)
02:28:32 <Fiora> except what it does is
02:28:40 <Fiora> on each iteration, it checks to see the accuracy so far
02:28:45 <Fiora> and sets the "write mask" accordingly
02:28:52 <Fiora> "his use of the write mask may also be used as
02:28:52 <Fiora> a mechanism for reducing
02:28:53 <Fiora> total power consumption, as those elements which are masked off are (in general) not computed. I"
02:29:00 <madbr> kinda wonder why that kind of architecture sucks at being a GPU
02:29:19 <Arc_Koen> wow, the wiki spamthing is kinda scary
02:29:22 <madbr> aren't modern GPUs pretty much large VLIW DSP's now?
02:29:24 <Bike> wait, wait, so you can just mask arbitrary math, and that actually helps?
02:29:30 <kmc> Bike: it would look like some SHA256 fixed function pipelines ;P
02:29:30 <Fiora> I think so? I have no idea @_@
02:29:31 <kmc> and exists
02:29:40 <Arc_Koen> now we have automated defenses against robots
02:29:59 <Fiora> madbr: the thing I remember reading said that part of the problem was that gpus also have a bunch of fixed function hardware, and intel thought that enough shader power could avoid needing that, but it didn't
02:30:23 <Fiora> that they kind of didn't have much experience making fast gpus which is, well. it makes sense given the speed of the integrated gpu on this laptop <.<
02:30:25 <Arc_Koen> hey if spambots start being very very smart and we start being very very smart against them this could actually be entertaining
02:30:37 <madbr> I haven't done gfx rendering in a while but some standard parts were horrible I think yeah
02:30:43 <madbr> bilinear is horrible
02:30:48 <Bike> kmc: imo it's not a good currency if it doesn't lead tofucking weird computer architectures and things
02:30:55 <Fiora> oh wow. it can swizzle each 128-bit lane arbitrarily on every op
02:30:56 <kmc> Bike: the funny thing about Bitcoin mining is that you need zero memory bandwidth, zero anything except SHA256...
02:31:03 <Bike> HFT led to a new transatlantic line! where's the beef bitcoin
02:31:13 <kmc> like I've heard of people cutting off bits of a video card to fit it in an x1 slot
02:31:15 <Fiora> this is like the ps2 emotion engine, duplicated 4x, on acid
02:31:25 <kmc> bitcoin rig: six top end graphics cards, $10 CPU, $10 of RAM
02:31:44 <madbr> who cares about bitcoins, I wanna crunch sound data
02:31:53 <Bike> maybe i should look up neuromorphic architectures again
02:32:05 <Bike> next time i feel like taking words like "neuromorphic" seriously
02:32:05 <kmc> Bike: and yeah, I think there's a bitcoin variant which uses scrypt or bcrypt instead of SHA256 × 2
02:32:18 <madbr> fiora: does it have multiply-accumulate too?
02:32:20 <Fiora> huh. wow, it even supports "unorm" types... is "unorm8" like, an 8-bit fixed point?
02:32:32 <Fiora> yeah, it has the same FMA as haswell and bulldozer I think
02:32:42 <Fiora> but it also has a special mode that does multiply+bias which is weird too
02:33:01 <Fiora> it's weird enough to explain that they had to like, lay it out as a series of formulas
02:33:10 <madbr> what's the data latency on the multiply accumulate
02:33:31 <madbr> also what's the clock rate of this thing
02:33:45 <Fiora> and like, 60 cores?
02:34:11 <madbr> like, the data latency on multiply on standard cpus just sucks
02:34:12 <Fiora> it says most vector instructions are 4/1 latency/throughput, so I guess that applies to FMA?
02:34:16 <madbr> it's like 5 cycles
02:34:31 <shachaf> Weren't we supposed to have 256-core computers in 2013?
02:34:33 <kmc> what's 'bias' in this context
02:34:46 <madbr> fiora: wait, so that's 4 cycle latency?
02:34:56 <Fiora> I think everything is built around 4 cycle latency
02:35:10 <Bike> shachaf: and don't we?
02:35:18 <Fiora> it's in-order too, it seems kinda similar to the atom?
02:35:30 <madbr> but recip/rsqrt/exp2/log2 have a latency of 1/2???
02:35:38 <Fiora> "TheL1 cache has an address generation interlockwith at least a 3-clock cycle latency. AGPR register must be produced three or more clocks prior to being used as a base or index register in an address computation."
02:35:52 <Fiora> I don't know @_@ maybe they mean throughput...
02:35:55 <Fiora> that seemed weird to me too
02:36:28 <Fiora> oh wow. it has scatter stores and gather loads
02:36:30 <kmc> it's in-order... they're counting on compilers to do good instruction scheduling for scientific codes?
02:36:38 <Fiora> I think they're assuming everyone will use theirs <.<
02:36:45 <madbr> why doesn't x86 have this stuff
02:37:02 <Bike> probably you don't need fast transcendentals for crysis (do you)
02:37:19 <kmc> bessel functions of the third kind
02:37:25 <Fiora> x86 does have fast reciprocal and square root approximations, think?
02:37:31 <madbr> bike: that's because transcendentals have sucked ass for so long that people have gotten used to live without them
02:37:33 <Fiora> nothing fast for log or exp though...
02:37:42 <Bike> madbr: ok, fair
02:38:18 <Fiora> wow, these. these floating point instructions
02:38:26 <Bike> madbr: that doesn't necessarily matter though - they might not include it on the x86 because most general clients don't need it. if they don't need it because most programs aren't written like that then that doesn't matter to them
02:38:27 <madbr> also I'm sure they can use scatter stores/loads in crysis
02:38:28 <Fiora> vclamppzpd, vgetmantpd o_O
02:38:30 <Bike> you know this i guess
02:38:34 * shachaf tries to figure out what's being discussed.
02:38:46 <Fiora> I think scatter/gather stuff is super expensive to implement in hardware?
02:38:49 <Bike> Fiora: pff names
02:39:03 <madbr> bike : "most general clients" run store/load/branch code that will never get faster no matter how you design the CPU
02:39:10 <Fiora> AVX2 actually has instructions for it but I don't know how fast it'll be...
02:39:23 <Bike> madbr: so, why bother putting this in x86 if they're just going to do that.
02:39:26 <madbr> only large throughput processsing like GFX or sound matters
02:39:35 <madbr> everything else is data-IO bound anyways
02:39:57 <Lymia> Population(2,ArrayBuffer(),179)
02:40:03 <Lymia> every species just died out... great more bugs
02:40:19 * Fiora should probably go look at those things again. they looked cool.
02:40:42 <madbr> bike: it's like optimizing for the 95% of the code that doesn't loop
02:40:43 * Bike should go back to reading OoS instead of this because he doesn't know shit.
02:40:51 <madbr> and that's never going to make a difference
02:40:52 <Bike> madbr: if it's economically sound...
02:41:38 <madbr> no it's just that most other architectures have died by now
02:41:48 <madbr> and they only have to be better than ARM
02:42:46 <Fiora> wow, the fault behavior descriptions on the gather instruction
02:42:52 <madbr> also because C++ compilers can't vectorize your code if it aliases
02:43:15 <madbr> and thanks to C++'s "do everything with pointers" philosophy, your pointers alias way too easily
02:44:09 <Fiora> oh gosh the fault behavior is crazy. it can actuall stop execution mid load because one of the gathers is in a page that isn't loaded or something
02:44:59 <madbr> how does it save that kind of state?
02:45:23 <madbr> wait, I guess it can replay the first loads
02:45:24 <Fiora> um. I don't think it does
02:45:29 <Fiora> nonono, it can't, that's not legal
02:45:33 <Fiora> it says that it can't do that
02:45:37 <Fiora> because it can't re-trigger faults
02:45:50 <Fiora> I think I'd actually have to set up a loop to use one of these... oh gosh <_>
02:45:51 <madbr> how do you recover from a page fault then
02:46:09 <madbr> like, a page fault due to disk access
02:46:28 <Fiora> pcmpeqb ymm3, ymm3
02:46:28 <Fiora> vgatherdd ymm1, [rax+ymm2*2], ymm3
02:46:37 <kmc> maybe the OS is expected to parse the instruction and finish it for you
02:46:51 <madbr> kmc: yeah I think that's actually possible
02:47:08 <Fiora> that would actually be incredibly cool
02:47:30 <Fiora> it says it sets the "RF" flag in "EFLAGS" if it resumes from a fault...?
02:47:38 <Fiora> but how do I even test that, what even is that
02:47:53 <madbr> can't you push the flags register?
02:48:49 <Fiora> that seems crazy @_@
02:49:23 <Fiora> "16 RF Resume Flag: Used by the debug registers DR6 and DR7. It enables you to turn off certain exceptions while debugging code. "
02:49:30 <Fiora> wow I am in over my head
02:50:05 <kmc> it's absolutely amazing that anyone manages to implement modern x86 remotely correctly
02:50:35 <Bike> intel and amd seem like pretty amazing companies.
02:50:52 <kmc> AMD has made some questionable business decisions
02:51:08 <Bike> well intel did that whole compiler thing.
02:51:11 <Bike> what did amd do?
02:51:11 <kmc> also Intel has failed at nearly every CPU architecture they've tried since x86
02:51:25 <madbr> except 960 but yeah
02:51:39 <madbr> and I guess itanium could've bombed more
02:51:41 <kmc> AMD spun off their fab business and fucked it up businesswise somehow
02:52:01 <Fiora> on the other hand they somehow managed to be the manufacturer for all three of the gen 8 consoles
02:52:16 <Bike> madbr: architecture bombs by turning out to be a literal bomb, which explodes killing clients
02:52:24 <kmc> HCF: Halt and Catch Fire
02:52:43 <madbr> like, the first generation IA64 sucked afaik
02:52:53 <kmc> anyway it's not just AMD and Intel that implement x86, but also VMWare, Xen, QEmu, Linux (KVM), ...
02:53:01 <Fiora> gah. the instruction reference doesn't say anything about when the gather is fast
02:53:06 <kmc> and yeah they do get a lot of subtle details wrong
02:53:08 <Fiora> like I'm guessing that maybe crossing page boundaries is bad? I have no idea @_@
02:53:12 <kmc> but it's amazing that it works at all
02:53:27 <madbr> fiora : really wondering about what cache architecture it has
02:53:46 <madbr> fiora : normally these days L1 cache only has 2 read ports
02:53:52 <Fiora> Yeah, that was what I was thinking too
02:53:58 <kmc> the "life on the edge of the double fault" game of life demo supposedly crashes most emulators
02:54:10 <kmc> and the author started researching those topics in search of a Xen breakout exploit
02:54:10 <madbr> so if it all falls on 2 cache lines I guess it can work
02:54:15 <Fiora> part of me feels like it'll probably just not be any faster but let you do simd address calculations? @_@
02:54:27 <madbr> though if this thing only runs at 1ghz maybe they could add more ports
02:54:32 <Fiora> this is on the haswell though :<
02:54:43 <Fiora> AVX2 has scatter/gather stuff, not just the phi
02:54:59 <Fiora> the phi is a weird cool thing but the haswell I actually have to write code for <.<
02:55:16 <madbr> fiora: well, not having to break out all you data from your XMM registers is already pretty bonus
02:55:19 <shachaf> I want to write code for Haswell. :-(
02:55:28 <madbr> like, when writing code for the ARM
02:55:29 <shachaf> Well, I did at one point. AVX2 would've really helped me.
02:55:40 <madbr> at one point one of my algos needed a LUT
02:55:44 * Fiora giggles as she sshs into her haswell box
02:55:59 <madbr> (91 x 16bit for ADPCM volume table)
02:56:09 <madbr> and there was only one way to do that LUT fast
02:56:22 <madbr> do all the algo up to the address generation on standard ARM
02:56:37 <madbr> then the rest of the algo in NEON
02:56:52 <madbr> and try to schedule the rest of the code so that both units stay busy
02:57:16 <madbr> so essentially all the LUT index generation has zero vectorizing
02:57:20 <shachaf> Fiora: How do you have a Haswell box to SSH into?
02:57:41 <kmc> "Let's just say I know a guy, who knows a guy... who knows another guy."
02:57:49 <Fiora> um, I have one for work
02:58:07 <Fiora> so I kind of have to be mum about things that I don't want to be mum about
02:58:52 <Bike> you still have the coolest job.
02:59:01 <Fiora> there are way cooler things
02:59:08 <Fiora> like people who program for video game consoles
02:59:29 <Bike> Beats me, but she gets a Haswell, so it must be cool.
02:59:30 <Fiora> like that guy in that channel who was like "lol I wrote PS2 code and PS3 code"
03:00:11 <shachaf> Oh, you have a secret job?
03:00:29 <Bike> evidently she doesn't like talking about what she actually does
03:00:45 <Bike> my working theory is she works on russian sound weapons
03:01:13 <shachaf> Good to hear that Russian weapons are sound, I guess.
03:01:19 <Lymia> The first version of the evolver that runs is clearly fatally flawed.
03:01:24 <shachaf> Some Russian weapons, anyway.
03:01:28 <Fiora> giving specifics would be about enough to find my identity pretty quickly <.<
03:01:31 <Lymia> The "best" in generation 10 has exactly 0 live opcodes.
03:01:41 <shachaf> Oh, you're one of those pseudonymous people, too?
03:01:55 <Bike> how could we find your identity if you work for a russian intelligence agency? think this through, fiora
03:02:51 <shachaf> Do you work at Intel or a non-Intell Haswellian place?
03:03:15 <kmc> i read today that you can uniquely identify someone from their gait as measured by the 3-axis accelerometer in their smartphone
03:03:42 <shachaf> Horses have smartphones now?
03:04:04 <Bike> dude even i have a smartphone, and i'm not even alive.
03:04:11 <Fiora> no I don't work at intel <_>
03:05:56 <shachaf> Can I try to figure out your identity or should I not?
03:06:04 <Fiora> you probably shouldnt because i dont think it'll work
03:06:22 <Fiora> also it's kind of, um, unnerving when people do that
03:06:26 <kmc> shachaf: startup idea: smartphones for horses
03:06:28 <shachaf> I meant whether you have any objections.
03:06:54 <kmc> Fiora: i think you're cool even if you are an identity-less phantom inside my computer
03:07:08 * shachaf likes to play the "figure out pseudonymous people's identity" game, but generally only when they don't object.
03:07:20 <kmc> i hope when you get to play with time machine or omnipotent AI hardware before everyone else, you'll at least give #esoteric a heads-up
03:07:22 <elliott> kmc: that's Phantom_Hoover.
03:07:33 <Bike> always fun to find someone's four year old deviantart ccount
03:07:41 <monqy> shachaf: "generally"
03:08:04 <shachaf> monqy: I can't think of any exceptions off-hand.
03:08:31 <Fiora> kmc: I only wish I could work with things that cool <.<
03:08:50 <shachaf> Haswell is basically a time machine.
03:09:05 <shachaf> I mean, it only comes out this summer, right?
03:09:09 <kmc> some kind of... hot tub time machine
03:09:37 <kmc> it took me two tries to watch it
03:09:46 <kmc> because the first time I got falling down drunk by about the 20 min mark
03:10:04 <Bike> That sounds like a successful watch as far as I'm concerned.
03:10:22 <shachaf> I haven't even *tried* to watch it.
03:10:27 <shachaf> How drunk does that make me?
03:11:12 <pikhq> shachaf: Do me, do me!
03:11:27 <pikhq> (it'll be boring. :P)
03:11:34 <Bike> i got nothing.
03:11:45 <elliott> do you really count as pseudonymous
03:11:54 <shachaf> pikhq: You're not Josiah Worcester of Colorado?
03:11:59 <pikhq> shachaf: That's me.
03:12:32 <pikhq> I'm, like, anti-anonymous online.
03:12:59 <Fiora> kmc: also I kind of like being an identityless phantom, it's kinda fun (and a bit comforting, in a way)
03:13:57 <shachaf> kmc: You should probably use a hash function designed to work this way.
03:14:25 <Lymia> [Average fitness: -7569.4, Max fitness: -950.0]
03:14:30 <Lymia> Holy crap, it's kinda working o~o
03:14:42 <Bike> That's pretty unfit.
03:14:56 <Lymia> 0 is "wins and loses equally" :p
03:15:12 <Jafet> Sounds like thermonuclear war.
03:15:33 <Bike> maybe i should code up an evo thing to see how red queen works out.
03:15:50 <Bike> i've been wondering what evolution would turn up if the actors can modify each other, like modern medicine.
03:16:34 -!- impomatic has left.
03:17:43 <shachaf> That's, uh, elliott's name.
03:17:43 <Lymia> !bfjoust this-will-lose-badly http://files.lymiahugs.com/best-4-341.bfjoust
03:17:57 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_this-will-lose-badly: 10.0
03:18:25 <Bike> evolved by joust evo eh
03:18:29 <pikhq> Yeah, almost certainly.
03:18:44 <Lymia> I'm not good with names
03:18:47 <pikhq> Nice work on the 0x$0.20.
03:23:04 <pikhq> Curse you and your otherwise privateness.
03:23:11 <pikhq> I'd have to care more to find further details.
03:23:50 <shachaf> I have otherwise privateness?
03:23:59 <Bike> "account : Madoka-Kaname" snort
03:24:17 <Lymia> Researching everyone?
03:24:30 <pikhq> shachaf: Namely, I'm not finding a wide-open Facebook account. :P
03:24:58 <Bike> time to /whois everybody
03:25:00 <pikhq> Lymia: Meh, you'll find a giant chunk of personal details on me within 5 results on Google.
03:30:22 <kmc> Bike: the singularitarians spend a lot of time thinking about that
03:30:41 <Bike> OK, but I don't want to pay attention to them.
03:30:53 <Bike> Apparently there are only slightly radical theories of recent human evolution that involve drugs.
03:31:16 <Fiora> Bike: I'm actually an AI running on an AWS micro instance
03:32:50 <kmc> stoned ape hypothesis
03:32:59 <kmc> i'm not sure about 'only slightly radical'
03:33:37 <Bike> It doesn't involve McKenna.
03:34:02 <Bike> ugh, i didn't bookmark the book...
03:34:12 <Bike> it was by an actual anthropologist, not like... you know. McKenna.
03:34:59 <Bike> recent human evolution is just cool in general. I mean have you ever really thought about lactase persistance
03:36:08 <Bike> good. keep that up.
03:37:09 <kmc> yeah lactase persistence is a neat trick
03:37:28 <kmc> +2 racial bonus to Drink Milk checks
03:38:14 <elliott> i was going to say soemthing but ive totally forgotten what
03:38:28 <Bike> Was it about milk?
03:38:28 <kmc> good story
03:39:44 <Lymia> I found what caused the speciation to go crazy, and spew out 1000 species at random.
03:39:57 <Lymia> It considers empty individuals to be infinitely unrelated to everything... >_<
03:41:56 <Bike> dammit, now i want to know the book again. the only anthro books i have bookmarked aren't about evolution.
03:41:56 * Fiora thanks her dad for lactase persistence genes?
03:42:12 <Bike> oh god mckenna actually called it "stoned ape", i thought that was a joke
03:50:16 <Lymia> Half my mutations.
03:50:23 <Lymia> Anything that operated on the contents of genes.
03:50:38 <elliott> this evolver sounds somewhat suboptimal
03:51:02 <Bike> obviously lymia needs to get closer to the optimum
03:51:14 <Bike> maybe use some kind of gradient descent, or evolutionary algorithm, to design the algorithm
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04:06:53 <Lymia> .[.[.[.[.[.:....]....]....]....]....]....
04:06:56 <Lymia> Interesting individual there
04:10:40 <Lymia> : means "recursion limit reached" >_>
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04:27:55 <ais523> Lymia: isn't that basically the ()% construction, just expanded by hand?
04:28:19 <Lymia> Something like that.
04:28:26 <Lymia> The ()% construction is... a bit syntatically difficult >_<
04:29:57 <ais523> what you wrote is (.[{:}....])%5
04:30:15 <Lymia> I might try generating ({})% later
04:30:37 <ais523> it shouldn't be hard if you already have code for expanding it
04:30:40 <Lymia> I couldn't think of a good encoding for that, so, I settled for that.
04:30:43 <ais523> just don't expand it and output the unexpanded for instead
04:30:53 <Lymia> The encoding is vastly different from the ({}) encoding
04:31:21 <ais523> that would surprise me
04:31:32 <ais523> what do you have in the current encoding?
04:32:34 <Lymia> Well... A gene is a linear sequence of instructions and activations. Activations try to trigger other genes, using some rules.
04:32:53 <Lymia> It could encode, like,, [[][]][[][]]... too.
04:33:00 <Lymia> Or more complicated stuff.
04:33:25 <ais523> oh, I see, you don't have a special case for nesting/recursion?
04:36:16 * Lymia sets population size to 200
04:36:25 <Lymia> Let's see if the system works then. Goodbye all 4 cores of CPU time :p
04:36:40 <Lymia> (Luckily, it's O(n) without inner-population evaluations... >_<)
04:40:13 <Lymia> -rw-r--r-- 1 lymia lymia 11M Mar 20 23:39 temp/evo-477-885.bfjoust
04:40:18 <Lymia> I really need a protection against this.
04:43:12 <Lymia> java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space
04:43:15 <Lymia> wow totally killing these
04:45:25 <Lymia> http://paste.strictfp.com/37065/8950fa75a836a5606ffc61cfcb1be3e1
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05:15:24 <Lymia> ais523, does gearlance care about the order of its arguments?
05:15:33 <ais523> Lymia: I don't know, I didn't write it
05:15:47 <ais523> my BF Joust impl is juiced, which fell off the internet
05:15:50 <ais523> that reminds me, I should put it back
05:18:20 <ais523> http://nethack4.org/esolangs/juiced.c
05:19:57 <Lymia> [Average fitness: -7653.368350168351, Max fitness: -7120.0]
05:19:57 <Lymia> [Average fitness: -7921.638165859564, Max fitness: -4205.0]
05:20:00 <Lymia> In one generation?
05:20:37 <ais523> you can expect huge improvements at the start
05:20:41 <ais523> e.g. < is a lot worse than .
05:20:41 <Lymia> Oh. It learned how to do the flag dance.
05:20:50 <Lymia> ais523, I'm starting with all nops.
05:20:54 <ais523> (+-)*-1, that sort of thing?
05:21:05 <ais523> !bfjoust stupid_vibration (+-)*-1
05:21:09 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_stupid_vibration: 5.8
05:21:18 <ais523> yeah, that seems about right
05:21:22 <Lymia> !bfjoust stupidish_vibration -+.+-[-+.+-[-+.+-[-+.+-[-+.+-[-+.+-:]].-<<<].-<<<].-<<<].-<<<
05:21:27 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stupidish_vibration: 10.0
05:22:25 <ais523> if it ever reaches the -<<< bit, it suicides
05:22:57 <ais523> !bfjoust lymiastupidish_vibration_golfed (-+.+-.)*-1
05:23:01 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_lymiastupidish_vibration_golfed: 13.3
05:23:09 <ais523> !bfjoust lymiastupidish_vibration_golfed <
05:23:12 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_lymiastupidish_vibration_golfed: 0.0
05:23:24 <ais523> 13.3 is actually very good for a vibration program that doesn't set decoys
05:23:33 <ais523> like, unprecedented I've-never-seen-this-before good
05:24:05 <ais523> perhaps evolving programs can be useful after all
05:24:29 <Lymia> It's probs just because it can figure out a vibration pattern that targets as many programs on the hill as possible
05:25:55 <ais523> it's got to be able to lock two-cycles, or it wouldn't do as well
05:26:09 <ais523> perhaps it locks both two-cycle and three-cycle clears?
05:26:16 <ais523> or is particularly immune to direction change, or something
05:26:48 <Lymia> !bfjoust less_stupid_vibration -[-[-[-[-[-:-:]-[-:-:]]-[-[-:-:]-[-:-:]].....]-[-[-[-:-:]-[-:-:]]-[-[-:-:]-[-:-:]].....].....]-[-[-[-[-:-:]-[-:-:]]-[-[-:-:]-[-:-:]].....]-[-[-[-:-:]-[-:-:]]-[-[-:-:]-[-:-:]].....].....].....]-[-[-[-[-[-:-:]-[-:-:]]-[-[-:-:]-[-:-:]].....]-[-[-[-:-:]-[-:-:]]-[-[-:-:]-[-:-:]].....].....]-[-[-[-[-:-:]-[-:-:]]-[-[-:-:]-[-:-:]].....]-[-[-[-:-:]-[-:-:]]-[-[-:-:]-[-:-:]].....].....].....].....
05:26:53 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_less_stupid_vibration: 14.9
05:28:46 <ais523> aha, I see: the (-+.+-.) pattern has a 2 in 3 chance of securing a detectable lock
05:29:00 <ais523> and several programs (especially david_werecat's) have no counermeasures in place for that
05:29:19 <Lymia> .bfjoust less_stupid_vibration_golfed -.-.-.(-[-[--]-[--]]-[-[--]-[--]].....)%-1
05:29:49 <Lymia> !bfjoust less_stupid_vibration_golfed -.-.-.(-[-[--]-[--]]-[-[--]-[--]].....)*-1
05:29:54 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_less_stupid_vibration_golfed: 14.9
05:30:00 <Lymia> Is % only for finite repeats?
05:30:08 <ais523> % is for nesting repeats
05:30:19 <Lymia> (So... %0 isn't an acceptable comment? >_<)
05:30:37 <ais523> basically, a(b)*9c is equivalent to a(b{})%9c
05:30:44 <ais523> the {} tells you where to self-embed
05:30:55 <ais523> and what's inside the {} tells you what to do when you hit the recursion limit
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05:41:24 <Lymia> !bfjoust foo ([-{<}+])%-1
05:41:29 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_foo: 7.8
05:46:19 <Lymia> Giant code sizes still out of control...
05:46:25 * Lymia sets limit to 32K opcodes
05:47:31 <ais523> Lymia: that's just a 2-cycle clear on your own flag
05:47:54 <ais523> only reason that potentially does well at all is if it hits an opponent's 2-cycle clear with the opposite polarity
05:47:58 <ais523> and they end up getting stuck on each other
05:57:26 <Lymia> Let's see if it can hope hit 0 fitness.
05:57:34 <Lymia> Which would be "wins and loses equally"
05:57:39 <Lymia> if it can hope to*
05:58:39 <Lymia> I should count ties as loses
05:59:53 <Lymia> line.split(" ").last.toInt - line.count(_ == 'X')
05:59:56 <Lymia> yay for terse languages
06:04:05 <fungot> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
06:05:51 <Lymia> It appears to be to highlight people. But for what purpose.
06:06:07 <ais523> Lymia: some webcomic updating
06:06:58 <Bike> don't we have a lot of lists now, maybe lymia could fit on one of them.
06:07:10 <Bike> `run ls bin/ | grep list
06:07:34 <shachaf> ????????????????????????????
06:07:47 * Lymia counts question marks
06:07:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: smlist: not found
06:07:54 <shachaf> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
06:08:10 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ grep '^..:..:..: <[^>]*> `list' /var/irclogs/_esoteric/201[3-9]-??-??.txt | sed 's/^.*<//;s/>.*//;s/_*$//' | sort -u | tr '\n' ' '
06:08:17 <Bike> oh so that's still working
06:08:28 <shachaf> Somebody seriously way reverted things or something.
06:08:30 <Lymia> That's a scary program.
06:08:40 <Lymia> It pings people :(
06:08:43 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
06:08:57 <HackEgo> bike: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
06:09:02 -!- pikhq has joined.
06:09:05 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/relcome: 2: colourise: not found
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06:09:12 <Bike> Oh god, we're doomed.
06:09:12 <Lymia> So HackEgo, like...
06:09:24 <Lymia> Pings everybody who has ever used the `list command?
06:09:49 <Bike> since january, anyway.
06:09:57 <Bike> it's an important command because it shames me forever.
06:10:15 <shachaf> <Phantom_Hoover> rm bin/?*list
06:10:34 <ais523> I like the new version, it seems to be free from race conditions
06:10:50 <Bike> `quine hello??
06:10:52 <HackEgo> patching file emptylist \ patching file instalist \ patching file makelist \ patching file mlist \ patching file olist \ patching file pbflist \ patching file slist \ patching file smlist \ patching file testlist
06:10:53 <elliott> shachaf i have a feeling nobody but you cares about the billion different lists
06:11:04 <Bike> `quine hello??
06:11:08 <shachaf> monqy: There's been a supermegacomics update.
06:11:23 <ais523> I normally find out about comic updates from sources other than the `lists
06:11:25 <monqy> i check supermega every day and sometimes more than every day because im fidgety
06:12:21 <Lymia> ais523, bleh. The system is seriously biased towards making highly recursive structures-- biasing it greatly towards vibration stuff.
06:12:35 * Lymia puts that on her "important observations" list
06:12:42 <shachaf> monqy: this update is p.good
06:12:48 <ais523> Lymia: vibration is the easiest program to construct for an evolver by far
06:13:30 <Lymia> Well. The current evolver, quite clearly has a problem with going, like, AAAACBBBB
06:13:35 <ais523> especially because the vast majority of the hill has resistance against rushes
06:13:55 <Lymia> ais523, I might, just as an experiment, run it in against-itself mode.
06:14:07 <Lymia> Then against the hill after.
06:14:11 <Lymia> To see how that works out
06:15:02 <Lymia> !bfjoust some-weird-vibrator --.+--.+.+[-.+]-.+--.+--.+.+[-.+].+[-.+--.+.+[]-.+].+[]--.+--.+.+[-.+].+[]--.+.+[]-.+
06:15:07 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_some-weird-vibrator: 9.6
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06:15:27 <Lymia> Let's see if it can do better with it counting ties as losses-- as EgoBot does
06:15:46 <Lymia> There's been improvement every generation so far.
06:15:55 <ais523> ties aren't counted as losses, but they also don't get you points
06:16:04 <ais523> I forget exactly how it works
06:16:41 <Lymia> wins - losses - ties
06:16:49 <Lymia> And just summing that for the fitness.
06:17:07 <Lymia> I multiply it by 5 after.
06:17:25 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: cannot access bin/*list: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access bin/*list: No such file or directory
06:17:30 <Lymia> The full function is 5*hill + 1*population
06:17:37 <Lymia> But, I disabled the latter part because that causes O(n^2)
06:17:38 <HackEgo> emptylist \ instalist \ makelist \ mlist \ olist \ pbflist \ slist \ smlist \ testlist
06:17:51 <HackEgo> rpub -a "$(onfranzr "$0"): "; gnvy -a+2 "$0" | knetf; rkvg \ funpuns \ brewna \ Ftrb
06:18:37 <Bike> well now Sgeo does have to fungot
06:18:37 <fungot> Bike: if it's weird. i never hear talk about stk, especially not not me :) lemme check
06:21:19 <Sgeo> When I get a new computer I'm not going to be able to play with it while lying down on the couch :(
06:21:58 <ais523> Lymia: because people aren't normally pinged by the rot13 of their own nick
06:22:46 <shachaf> But it doesn't matter with me because I was running it.
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06:23:30 <ais523> hmm… what nick came first, "shachaf" or "funpuns"?
06:23:55 <fizzie> The actual hill scoring considers wins against better programs more important; it's described at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/SCORES -- not that raw duel points (which are 1 point for win, 0 for tie, -1 for loss) or anything else similar would necessarily be bad for fitness.
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06:24:14 <Lymia> I used to do wins - loses
06:24:23 <Lymia> Which is quite clearly grossly inaccurate
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06:24:45 <Lymia> "The actual hill scoring considers wins against better programs more important"
06:25:05 <Lymia> For an evolutionary algorithm, that might mean a lot. Since, it could potentially find weakness targeted at the top of the hill.
06:26:01 <ais523> Lymia: there are definitely serious weaknesses in some of the high-up programs
06:26:26 <fizzie> Losses also sorta-don't count in the score as much, since it clamps the points-against-X to 0 for the score calculation.
06:26:26 <ais523> e.g. omnipotence can be defeated simply via timer clears that set a lot of decoys
06:27:04 <ais523> but the problem is, those known weaknesses are unlikely to be found by an evolutionary algorithm
06:27:08 <ais523> it might find different weaknesses, though
06:27:23 <fizzie> (Of course they count in the sense that win-win-win-loss is 2 while win-win-win-tie is 3.)
06:29:00 <Lymia> ais523, I really want to see if I can get more interesting behavior if I run it without touching the hill first.
06:29:11 <ais523> Lymia: yes, that sounds like a good test
06:29:21 <ais523> it's at least likely to produce rush programs, eventually
06:29:54 <Lymia> i.e. let it run on its own for 100 or so generations, then see how it works on the hill
06:29:55 <Lymia> Might not work so well though. My speciation algorithm is, er...scizophranic.
06:30:24 <Lymia> For it to actually work well though, I have to fix my speciation code.
06:30:36 <Lymia> So it stops deciding there's 10 species one generation, and 4 the next
06:30:38 <oklopol> !bfjoust boobnipples (++++++--..--[++++-]...--[+])*-1
06:30:42 <EgoBot> Score for oklopol_boobnipples: 9.7
06:31:06 <oklopol> is that a good score or a bad score
06:31:34 <Lymia> Imagine 9.7 as an IQ
06:32:06 <shachaf> That's not such a bad test grade.
06:32:31 <Lymia> (9.7/100 is a F though)
06:32:48 <Lymia> (And likely to drag your grade for the entire class down to at least a C)
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06:34:21 <Lymia> ais523, please exorcise my speciation code :(
06:34:25 <Lymia> ArraySeq(64, 68, 68) < one generation
06:34:33 <Lymia> ArraySeq(3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3)
06:34:42 <Lymia> ArraySeq(21, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22) < the one after that
06:35:17 <Lymia> The target is an average of 20 individuals per species.
06:35:37 <ais523> oklopol: 20 or so means "the idea behind this program might potentially work"; 40-50 means "this program will survive on the hill for a while", 60+ is what you'd expect from a top program
06:35:38 <Lymia> But the variable speciation constant is basically overpowered by whatever feedback loop is causing this...
06:44:31 <Arc_Koen> ais523: isn't it currently 6h45 in the morning in your country?
06:45:10 <Arc_Koen> so you were up all night talking about brainfuck joust in the middle of the week
06:46:06 <oklopol> !bfjoust waywardventriculation (,.>,.>,.>,.>,.>,.[[>>+-]....],,,>>,,.<<,,,[+-.-+.+-.]-)*-1
06:46:08 <Arc_Koen> that makes it pretty hard for me to mentally place everyone in their respective timezone
06:46:09 <EgoBot> Score for oklopol_waywardventriculation: 0.0
06:46:24 <oklopol> some day i'll learn how this game words
06:47:04 <Lymia> !bfjoust generation-34 http://files.lymiahugs.com/best-6834-6785.bfjoust
06:47:12 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_generation-34: 17.2
06:47:32 <Arc_Koen> !bfjoust naive_1 (->+>)*5([-]>)*-1
06:47:36 <EgoBot> Score for Arc_Koen_naive_1: 15.4
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06:48:21 <ais523> Arc_Koen: that's not an awful program
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06:48:31 <Arc_Koen> (technically I tried others before but I hadn't understood the rules)
06:48:34 <ais523> it is, however, the sort of thing many of the older programs are specialized to beat
06:48:50 <ais523> the newer programs are mostly trying to beat the older programs and each other, though
06:49:03 <Lymia> My program is currently crunching numbers, apparently with the goal of making the best possible vibrator... with no decoys.
06:49:08 <ais523> you might want to read up about offset clears
06:49:26 <ais523> they completely revolutionised BF Joust when they were invented
06:49:29 <ais523> it blew my mind, at least
06:49:34 <Lymia> What are offset clears?
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06:49:45 <Lymia> Do some check, >*x and [-]?
06:49:48 <Lymia> Or something like that?
06:49:58 <ais523> Lymia: basically you do ++[-] or the like, so that instead of being very fast at 0, 1, 2, 3 but very slow at -1, you're very fast at -2, -1, 0, 1, 2 but slow at -3
06:50:23 <ais523> although arguably they aren't so useful any more because they made decoys very close to 1 useless at actually slowing programs down
06:50:31 <ais523> and so they aren't used for that purpose very often
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06:51:29 <Arc_Koen> did you just say "offset clears are so efficient at defeating decoys that decoys are no longer used and thus offset clears are useless nowadays"?
06:52:05 <Lymia> Offset clears sounds like the kind of thing you actually expect an evolutionary algorithm to learn.
06:53:06 <ais523> Arc_Koen: pretty much, BF Joust works like that
06:53:15 <ais523> but they're still useful because programs use size-1 decoys for other purposes
06:53:26 <ais523> assuming that they won't be much good at slowing the enemy, but if they do it's a bonus
06:53:38 <Lymia> I effectively have
06:54:53 <Arc_Koen> so what's the score given by egobot? the number of programs I defeated?
06:55:15 <ais523> Arc_Koen: it's calculated based on how many programs it beats, how convincingly it beats them, and how good the programs it beats are
06:56:19 <elliott> if only we had quintopia's scoring
06:56:50 <Lymia> !bfjoust generation-40 http://files.lymiahugs.com/best-6010-7971.bfjoust
06:56:55 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_generation-40: 17.2
06:57:17 <Lymia> There's a fitness change by my algorithm, and no change by EgoBot's?
06:57:24 <Lymia> Does it, like, not count certain wins?
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07:01:51 <oklopol> "how convincingly it beats them"?
07:02:42 <Arc_Koen> oklopol: I think a "match" between two programs is made of 21 battles
07:03:05 <ais523> oklopol: yeah, if you win on more tape lengths
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07:23:58 <Lymia> !bfjoust stupid-vibrator (++-)*-1
07:24:18 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stupid-vibrator: 14.5
07:25:03 <Lymia> I'm simultaneously surprised at the variety of code structures the algorithm manages to generate-- and, unfortunately, how little it uses it...
07:25:35 <EgoBot> Score for Arc_Koen_empty: 3.6
07:26:19 <Lymia> ais523, you have a hill of "easier" programs somewhere?
07:26:37 <ais523> Lymia: I don't, but taking a hill from 2009 or so would be good to test against
07:26:59 <EgoBot> Score for Arc_Koen_notsolucky: 0.0
07:27:21 <Lymia> I'm not sure how to use hg like that
07:27:23 <fizzie> I used the set of sample programs at http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies for some stuff.
07:27:35 <Lymia> !bfjoust lucky >*10[-]>[-]
07:27:39 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_lucky: 3.6
07:28:04 <Arc_Koen> well 3.6 you get for not committing suicide
07:28:14 <Lymia> !bfjoust luckier >*10[-]>[-]>[-]
07:28:18 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_luckier: 3.6
07:28:27 <Lymia> !bfjoust luckiest >*10[--]>[--]>[--]
07:28:31 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_luckiest: 3.6
07:28:44 <Arc_Koen> !bfjoust straightforward (>)*9([-])*-1
07:28:48 <EgoBot> Score for Arc_Koen_straightforward: 4.3
07:28:51 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
07:28:56 <Lymia> !bfjoust this-isnt-bf! [->+<]
07:28:59 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_this-isnt-bf_: 5.1
07:29:16 <Lymia> MOV 0, 1 beats stuff?
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07:30:30 <fizzie> Lymia: "hg update -d <DATE" should switch the working directory to the tipmost revision that's earlier than DATE.
07:31:09 <EgoBot> Score for Arc_Koen_traitor: 7.3
07:31:29 <Lymia> !bfjoust actual-traitor [-].
07:31:49 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_actual-traitor: 7.8
07:32:53 <Arc_Koen> !bfjoust faster-traitor (-)*128
07:32:58 <EgoBot> Score for Arc_Koen_faster-traitor: 5.8
07:33:21 <ais523> [-] has a chance of locking itself on the opponent
07:33:46 <Arc_Koen> (I don't know what that means)
07:33:52 <Lymia> !bfjoust i-hate-decoys >*8>([-[-[-[-[-]]]]]>)*-1
07:33:55 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_i-hate-decoys: 11.5
07:34:07 <Lymia> !bfjoust i-hate-decoys >*8([-[-[-[-]]]]>)*-1
07:34:10 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_i-hate-decoys: 10.2
07:34:22 <Lymia> !bfjoust i-hate-decoys >*8([-[-[-[--]]]]>)*-1
07:34:26 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_i-hate-decoys: 9.7
07:35:46 <Lymia> My speciation code is fixed!
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07:36:40 <Lymia> !bfjoust weird-vibrator (+.-.)*-1
07:36:45 <ais523> Lymia: [-[-[-[-[-[-]]]]] is mostly the same as [-[-]] but more vulnerable to triplocks
07:36:48 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_weird-vibrator: 6.0
07:37:00 <ais523> and with unbalanced brackets because I failed to copy it correctly
07:37:17 <Lymia> Here's an interesting challenge.
07:37:26 <Lymia> Write a bfjoust program that fits on an IRC line and gets a good score :p
07:37:33 <ais523> fwiw, [-[-]][-[-]] is the gold standard pattern for immunity to both triplocks and vibration programs, although you want a clear that's more reliable against locks than [-]
07:37:40 <ais523> Lymia: quite a few high-up programs would fit on a line
07:37:44 <ais523> or could be modified to do so
07:37:58 <Lymia> They appear to be mostly in the 20KB range
07:37:59 <ais523> the main problem is with defense programs, and programs that need to write out a lot of near-identical cases
07:38:09 <ais523> most of my programs fit in one of those categories or the other…
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07:41:06 <Fiora> !bfjoust i-have-no-idea-what-im-doing ((-->+>)*20(--<+<)*20)*-1
07:41:09 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_i-have-no-idea-what-im-doing: 0.0
07:41:52 <ais523> Fiora: the first loop moves 40 cells
07:41:57 <ais523> the tape has a maximum length of 30
07:42:08 <ais523> as such, the only way that doesn't suicide is if the opponent suicides faster :)
07:42:27 <Fiora> !bfjoust i-have-no-idea-what-im-doing ((-->+>)*15(--<+<)*15)*-1
07:42:28 <ais523> in general, the difficulty in BF Joust is trying to stop at your opponent's flag, if you go even one cell beyond you lose
07:42:30 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_i-have-no-idea-what-im-doing: 0.0
07:42:34 <ais523> and your opponent isn't going to make it easy to find the flag
07:42:44 <ais523> *14 would make it actually possible for the program to not lose, btw
07:42:53 <Fiora> !bfjoust i-have-no-idea-what-im-doing ((-->+>)*10(--<+<)*10)*-1
07:42:54 <fizzie> But only on long tapes.
07:42:58 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_i-have-no-idea-what-im-doing: 0.0
07:43:02 <ais523> but it'd still probably lose due to requiring the tape length to be exactly 29 to have a chance
07:43:10 <Lymia> val fightHill = false
07:43:10 <Lymia> val fightPopulation = true
07:43:17 <Lymia> 80^2 evaluations yay
07:43:37 <ais523> Fiora: there are a few programs that wins against on a few tape lengths
07:43:47 <ais523> so its problem is that it just hasn't scored even one decimal place of score :)
07:44:11 <Fiora> !bfjoust i-have-no-idea-what-im-doing (-[-[-[-]]]]>)*-1
07:44:14 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_i-have-no-idea-what-im-doing: 0.0
07:44:22 <ais523> clearing your own flag is also inadvisable
07:44:23 <Lymia> That clears yourself :p
07:44:29 <Fiora> !bfjoust i-have-no-idea-what-im-doing (>-[-[-[-]]]])*-1
07:44:30 <ais523> try starting with a > or nine
07:44:32 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_i-have-no-idea-what-im-doing: 0.0
07:44:40 <Fiora> okay that didn't work <.<
07:44:59 <Fiora> !bfjoust i-have-no-idea-what-im-doing (>-[-[-[-]]])*-1
07:45:00 <ais523> Fiora: "parse error: terminating ] without a matching ["
07:45:04 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_i-have-no-idea-what-im-doing: 6.2
07:45:12 <Fiora> that would explain that XD
07:45:12 <ais523> there, now you're actually scoring points :)
07:46:10 <Lymia> !bfjoust this-is-weird-and-stuff >>>+*10>>+*10->+>-->++>(>-[-])*-1
07:46:17 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_this-is-weird-and-stuff: 5.5
07:46:23 <Lymia> !bfjoust this-is-also-entirely-random >>>+*10>>+*10->+>-->++>(>[-[-]])*-1
07:46:28 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_this-is-also-entirely-random: 11.7
07:46:48 <ais523> no, but EgoBot's interp might understand it anyway
07:46:56 <ais523> either that or it treats it as a comment
07:46:56 <Fiora> do the two programs start at opposite ends of the take?
07:46:58 <Fiora> or like, is it random?
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07:47:06 <ais523> and > is towards the opponent
07:47:08 <Fiora> okay so they start maximum distance from each other
07:47:10 <ais523> err, the opponent's flag
07:47:11 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
07:47:16 <Lymia> !bfjoust experiment -
07:47:24 <Fiora> wait, but if the tape is an even number long, aren't both directions equally close?
07:47:26 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_experiment: 3.6
07:47:26 <Deewiant> ais523: "no, but maybe yes"? Does that mean "it's not supposed to, but maybe yes"
07:47:29 <Lymia> !bfjoust experiment -*100
07:47:33 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_experiment: 3.6
07:47:36 <Lymia> !bfjoust experiment -*128
07:47:39 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_experiment: 3.6
07:47:41 <Lymia> !bfjoust experiment -*-1
07:47:46 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_experiment: 3.6
07:47:48 <Lymia> !bfjoust experiment (-)*-1
07:47:51 <ais523> looks like it just treats the * as a comment
07:48:00 <Lymia> There's the answer, I guess.
07:48:05 <ais523> so -*-1 is equivalent to --
07:48:06 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_experiment: 7.3
07:48:09 <ais523> also, you just posted increase
07:48:20 <ais523> which is quite good at getting draws, but not very good at winning
07:48:23 <Fiora> o_O how does (-)*-1 get 7.3?
07:48:25 <ais523> we try it every now and then
07:48:25 <fizzie> You need to have positive duel points against at least one program in order to get a nonzero score.
07:48:39 <Lymia> !bfjoust this-is-also-entirely-random >>>(+)*10>>(+)*10->+>-->++>(>[-[-]])*-1
07:48:39 <ais523> Fiora: because your flag needs to be zero for two cycles to win
07:48:42 <ais523> that changes it every cycle
07:48:45 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_this-is-also-entirely-random: 13.1
07:48:54 <ais523> so the opponent's only way to win is to let you zero it, then change it in the opposite direction to hold it in place
07:49:09 <ais523> most programs are capable of doing that on at least one polarity, though (even the simple [-] does that)
07:49:30 <Lymia> Though that's not effective at clearing...
07:49:47 <ais523> quite often, people suggest modified clear loops that actually are incapable of just clearing :)
07:49:55 <ais523> I saw someone try ++ once, I think
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07:50:28 -!- ais523 has quit.
07:50:46 <Fiora> !bfjoust silly ((<-[-[-[++++]]])(>>>-[-[-[++++]]]))*-1
07:50:51 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_silly: 3.6
07:50:56 <Lymia> That'll die in one tick.
07:51:09 <Lymia> !bfjoust suicide <
07:51:13 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_suicide: 0.0
07:51:22 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
07:51:28 <Lymia> !bfjoust maybe_suicide (<)
07:51:31 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_maybe_suicide: 3.6
07:51:40 <fizzie> Missing repeat count is taken as zero.
07:52:02 <Fiora> oh. I thought it wrapped?
07:52:05 <fizzie> Much like (>)*30 is a suicide, except slower.
07:52:09 <Lymia> Because the only thing in the < direction is death
07:52:31 <fizzie> It's an instant lose, too, not a two-cycle thing like the flag-at-zero.
07:52:43 <fizzie> (Well, or instant die if the opponent suicides on the same cycle.)
07:52:52 <Fiora> ((>>-[-[-[-]+]++])(<-[-[-[-]+]++]))*-1
07:53:42 * Lymia is running her evolver in "closed loop" mode.
07:53:43 <Fiora> !bfjoust test ((>>-[-[-[-]+]++])(<-[-[-[-]+]++]))*-1
07:53:47 <Lymia> No external hill :p
07:53:53 <Fiora> how... how is that . O_O
07:53:55 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 3.6
07:53:59 <Lymia> Let's see what it produces in, like, 30 hours
07:54:05 <fizzie> Fiora: Because a missing repeat count for () is taken as zero, as said.
07:54:17 <Fiora> (>>-[-[-[-]+]++]<-[-[-[-]+]++])*-1
07:54:24 <Fiora> I am bad at this, sorry
07:54:42 <Fiora> erm aksjdlfkl forgot to put bfjous
07:54:51 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>>-[-[-[-]+]++]<-[-[-[-]+]++])*-1
07:54:58 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 1.0
07:55:06 <Fiora> wow, even worse? <_>
07:55:08 <Lymia> That is the lowest non-zero score I've ever seen
07:55:24 <Fiora> am I so bad that I like, transcend awfulness
07:55:28 <Deewiant> Once again you're likely to run off the tape with that blind >>
07:55:35 <Deewiant> I'm pretty sure I've seen 0.6 or something
07:55:46 <Lymia> !bfjoust slow-death ((.)*4>)*-1
07:55:50 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_slow-death: 2.0
07:55:54 <Lymia> !bfjoust slow-death ((.)*5>)*-1
07:55:57 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_slow-death: 2.4
07:55:58 <Fiora> how can it run off the tape if I'm always heading towards my opponent?
07:55:59 <Lymia> !bfjoust slow-death ((.)*6>)*-1
07:56:03 <Lymia> !bfjoust slow-death ((.)*2>)*-1
07:56:03 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_slow-death: 2.4
07:56:06 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_slow-death: 1.1
07:56:07 <fizzie> Deewiant: <EgoBot> Score for ehird_shade_needs_to_get_laid: 0.1
07:56:08 <Deewiant> Fiora: You can run off the opponent's edge
07:56:12 <Lymia> !bfjoust slow-death (.>)*-1
07:56:16 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_slow-death: 1.1
07:56:19 <Fiora> but... that means the opponent is already off the edge... right?
07:56:20 <Lymia> fizzie, what's the code for that?
07:56:27 <Fiora> if I'm heading towards them...
07:56:35 <Lymia> Fiora, the heads don't interact
07:56:37 <Deewiant> Fiora: No? You have a tape like A.........B with A being where you start and B where the opponent starts
07:56:38 <Lymia> Except via values on the tape
07:56:46 <Fiora> oh.... so > is towards the opponent's flag. not towards the opponent (?)
07:56:55 <fizzie> Lymia: Actually... it was a "<".
07:56:58 <Deewiant> Fiora: You don't know where the opponent is
07:57:04 <Fiora> that makes more sense
07:57:06 <fizzie> I have no idea how < got 0.1 there.
07:57:11 <Lymia> !bfjoust slow-death ()*300(>)*-1
07:57:14 <fizzie> But this was in 2009, things were different then.
07:57:17 <Lymia> !bfjoust slow-death (.)*300(>)*-1
07:57:17 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_slow-death: 0.0
07:57:20 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_slow-death: 2.4
07:57:21 <Deewiant> fizzie: With more than one < on the hill?
07:57:26 <Lymia> !bfjoust slow-death (.)*200(>)*-1
07:57:29 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_slow-death: 2.4
07:57:33 <Lymia> !bfjoust slow-death (.)*100(>)*-1
07:57:37 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_slow-death: 2.4
07:57:42 <Lymia> !bfjoust slow-death (.)*130(>)*-1
07:57:45 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_slow-death: 2.4
07:57:53 <fizzie> Deewiant: It would tie against all the other <'s, and get 0 points from them, I'd think.
07:57:57 <Lymia> !bfjoust slow-death >+>+(.)*130(>)*-1
07:58:00 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_slow-death: 0.0
07:58:05 <Lymia> !bfjoust slow-death >+>+(.)*50(>)*-1
07:58:08 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_slow-death: 0.0
07:58:12 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>-[-[-[-]+]++])*-1
07:58:16 <Lymia> !bfjoust slow-death >+>+(.)*200(>)*-1
07:58:21 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_slow-death: 0.0
07:58:21 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 3.2
07:58:31 <fizzie> !bfjoust mroman_decoy_got_zero_point_one_in_july_2012 [>->+>->+<<<<]
07:58:32 <Lymia> !bfjoust slow-death >+>+(.)*50(>[-])*-1
07:58:36 <EgoBot> Score for fizzie_mroman_decoy_got_zero_point_one_in_july_2012: 0.1
07:58:36 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_slow-death: 9.1
07:59:09 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>-[-[-[-]-]-])*-1
07:59:15 <fizzie> Also, he produced six consecutive 0.1's there.
07:59:23 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 4.0
07:59:44 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>-[-[-[-]]-]-)*-1
07:59:46 <Lymia> !bfjoust lets-not-suck-/as/-badly? [>->+>->+<<<<[+]+]
07:59:52 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 3.9
07:59:55 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_lets-not-suck-_as_-badly_: 3.5
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08:01:59 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>-----)*9(>[-[-[-]])*-1
08:02:03 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 0.0
08:02:12 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>-----)*9(>[-[-[-]]])*-1
08:02:15 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 15.1
08:02:22 <Lymia> !bfjoust self-evolving :->.>-+<-->->.>-+<-->->.>-+<-->->.>-+<-->->.>-+<-->->.>-+<-->
08:02:28 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_self-evolving: 0.0
08:02:35 <Lymia> I'm not sure what it actually does.
08:02:43 <Lymia> But it's the best in generation 6
08:02:45 <Lymia> With no hill input
08:02:52 <Deewiant> Fiora: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
08:02:55 <Lymia> I hope it learns to rush soon
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08:03:20 <Fiora> what's the difference between score and points?
08:03:23 <Deewiant> Gregor: Could we get a "program size" column there
08:03:26 <Fiora> and um, why the dropoff between 17.45 and0.00?
08:03:35 <Deewiant> Fiora: Because the hill has a maximum size
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08:03:59 <Deewiant> Fiora: And their scores, and the whole thing.
08:04:12 <Fiora> what's the reason the 0.00 program is included?
08:04:36 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>-----)*9(>[-[-[-]]]--)*-1
08:04:40 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 15.8
08:04:53 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>-----)*9(>[-[-[-]]]-----)*-1
08:04:53 <Deewiant> Fiora: The latest run is always included as the last one
08:04:57 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 14.0
08:05:18 <Deewiant> Fiora: See also http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/breakdown.txt
08:05:28 <Fiora> that is really cool
08:05:38 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined.
08:05:45 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>----->+++++)*4(>[-[-[-]]]--)*-1
08:05:53 -!- aloril has joined.
08:05:54 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 17.2
08:06:02 <Fiora> I'm on the liiist!!
08:06:08 <Deewiant> Fiora: There was also some javascript thing with more accurate comparison but I can't find the URL in my browser history, it's probably in the wiki
08:06:11 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>---->++++)*4(>[-[-[-]]]--)*-1
08:06:17 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 16.4
08:06:20 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>------>++++++)*4(>[-[-[-]]]--)*-1
08:06:25 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>------->+++++++)*4(>[-[-[-]]]--)*-1
08:06:25 <Lymia> Fitness hovering around -2200
08:06:28 <Lymia> Still no rushes, I presume
08:06:28 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 16.7
08:06:29 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 16.7
08:06:41 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>------->+++++++)*4(>[-[-[-]]]--)*-1
08:06:42 <Lymia> The best does nothing again.
08:06:46 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 16.7
08:07:06 <Lymia> It'll be a while before an effective rush... v.v;
08:08:08 <Deewiant> Fiora: Re. "is 15.1 good", this is why I asked for a program size column: I think the point where most programs start to be machine-generated is currently around score 37 and up
08:08:30 <Fiora> so they're like made via a search algorithm?
08:08:35 <Lymia> Deewiant, does evolutionary algorithm'd count as "machine generated"? :p
08:08:35 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>----->+++++)*4(>[-[-[-]]]-->[-[-[-]]]++)*-1
08:08:40 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 16.2
08:09:02 <Deewiant> Fiora: I'm not sure, ask quintopia and ais523 about this stuff
08:09:16 <elliott> the autogenerated ones are basically repeating simple patterns
08:09:20 <elliott> i.e., the work is still mostly human
08:09:28 <elliott> except for some of them i guess (gregor's?)
08:09:45 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>----->+++++)*4(>[-[-[+++[+[-]]]]]--)*-1
08:09:49 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 19.2
08:09:50 <Deewiant> My stuff is all super-simple IMO and their highest is up at 28, you should be able to get thereabouts without having to think too much
08:10:27 * Lymia goes evolve an ais523_omnipotence killer
08:10:40 <Deewiant> 37 just basically seems like the current cutoff point past where you can't send it as a !bfjoust one-liner :-P
08:10:43 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>----->+++++)*4(>[-[-[+++[+[+[+[--------[-[-[-[-]]]]]]]]]]]]--)*-1
08:10:47 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 0.0
08:10:49 <Deewiant> Although there might be some smaller ones up above, I didn't check them all.
08:10:58 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>----->+++++)*4(>[-[-[+++[+[+[+[--------[-[-[-[-]]]]]]]]]]]--)*-1
08:11:02 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 18.0
08:11:12 <Lymia> !bfjoust evolved_anti_omnipotence http://files.lymiahugs.com/best-3495-1964.bfjoust
08:11:17 <elliott> i'd like to see a Deewiant program at #1
08:11:18 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_evolved_anti_omnipotence: 17.5
08:11:40 <Deewiant> behemoth is only 199 bytes and has 50 score, so I guess getting high with something small is still doable
08:11:43 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>----->+++++)*4(>[-[-[+++[+[+[-]]]]]]--)*-1
08:11:45 <Deewiant> elliott: Allegro was #1 at some point
08:11:48 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 17.3
08:11:52 <Lymia> Lymia_evolved_anti_omnipotence.bfjoust vs ais523_omnipotence.bfjoust
08:11:52 <Lymia> >>>><><>>><><><><<>>< ><>><>>><>>><<>>>>>>< -14
08:11:52 <Lymia> Lymia_evolved_anti_omnipotence.bfjoust wins.
08:12:03 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>----->+++++)*4(>[-[-[+++[+[-]]]]].--)*-1
08:12:06 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 18.6
08:12:07 <Deewiant> elliott: And maybe Pendolino before that? Or maybe only Pendolino ever was.
08:12:11 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>----->+++++)*4(>[-[-[+++[+[-].]]]]--)*-1
08:12:15 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 18.7
08:12:18 <elliott> since that was before space_elevator I think
08:12:23 <elliott> which started the huge program craze
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08:12:47 <Deewiant> elliott: I think quintopia_poke was #1 at some point, and it's not very different from my stuff IIRC.
08:12:59 <Fiora> I'm a little confused, without that ".", wouldn't my program run off the end the turn after zeroing the flag?
08:13:28 <Deewiant> This poke is bigger than I remember, though... oh well.
08:13:38 <Lymia> Fiora, ] takes up a cycle
08:13:59 <Deewiant> ISTR some pretty small and simple program being on top post-space_elevator.
08:14:22 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>----->+++++)*4(>[-[-[+++[+[-][--]]]]]--)*-1
08:14:27 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 19.2
08:14:34 <Lymia> lymia@infel:~/programming/bfjoust-evo$ ls hill
08:14:34 <Lymia> ais523_anticipation2.bfjoust ais523_omnipotence.bfjoust quintopia_space_hotel.bfjoust
08:14:37 <Lymia> Let's see if this works :p
08:15:26 <Lymia> Learn to set decoys
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08:15:36 <Lymia> This is the first time I've seen a best program involving pointer movement
08:15:41 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>----->+++++)*4(>[-[-[+++[+[-.-.-.]]]]]--)*-1
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08:15:43 <Deewiant> Lymia: Your "anti_omnipotence" loses against omnipotence :-P
08:15:44 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 30.2
08:16:03 <Fiora> okay I should give this a name then
08:16:12 <Lymia> To evolve it with only the targets on the hill
08:16:18 <Lymia> To try and beat only them :p
08:16:22 <Fiora> !bfjoust timestopping-mahou-shoujo (>----->+++++)*4(>[-[-[+++[+[-.-.-.]]]]]--)*-1
08:16:26 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_timestopping-mahou-shoujo: 29.0
08:16:38 <Fiora> oh, it played against my old one, how do I remove my old one?
08:16:39 <Deewiant> Fiora: Replace test with < to get it off the hill
08:16:52 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 0.0
08:16:52 <Deewiant> Fiora: Or your crappy program of choice
08:17:14 <Deewiant> Lymia: I just figured that if it's been evolved against omnipotence it'd at least beat it before you submit it :-P
08:17:18 <Lymia> !bfjoust crappy >+<(.)*10
08:17:22 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_crappy: 1.1
08:17:28 <Fiora> !bfjoust timestopping-mahou-shoujo (>----->+++++)*4(>[-[-[+++[+[--.-.-.]]]]]--)*-1
08:17:32 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_timestopping-mahou-shoujo: 12.6
08:17:36 <Lymia> !bfjoust crappy >+>+<<(.)*10
08:17:37 <Fiora> !bfjoust timestopping-mahou-shoujo (>----->+++++)*4(>[-[-[+++[+[-.-.-.]]]]]--)*-1
08:17:39 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_crappy: 0.1
08:17:41 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_timestopping-mahou-shoujo: 29.2
08:18:15 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>----->+++++)*4(>[-[-[+++[+[(-.)*-1]]]]]--)*-1
08:18:18 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 12.0
08:18:24 <Lymia> Deewiant, I gave up making it better.
08:18:30 <Fiora> oh that doesn't work no wonder <.<
08:18:33 <Lymia> Since it was a vibrator
08:18:35 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>----->+++++)*4(>[-[-[+++[+[-.-.]]]]]--)*-1
08:18:39 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 23.0
08:18:39 <Lymia> It didn't learn anything interesting
08:18:45 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>----->+++++)*4(>[-[-[+++[+[-.-.-.-.]]]]]--)*-1
08:18:48 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 20.7
08:18:58 <Fiora> o_O exactly 3 repetitions of that works well...?
08:19:24 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>----->+++++)*4(>[-[-[-.-.-.]]]--)*-1
08:19:27 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 24.0
08:19:37 <Deewiant> Fiora: This is called fine-tuning to beat the current hill
08:19:48 <Deewiant> Fiora: As programs change, other constants might work better
08:19:48 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>----->+++++)*4(>[-[-[+++[+[+.+.+.+.]]]]]--)*-1
08:19:52 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 20.7
08:19:56 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>----->+++++)*4(>[-[-[+++[+[+.+.+.]]]]]--)*-1
08:19:59 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 25.2
08:20:15 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (>----->+++++)*4(>[-[-[+++[+[+.]]]]]--)*-1
08:20:18 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 22.7
08:20:34 <Deewiant> Maybe there's some "overall optimal" choice but with the relatively small hill I don't think you can make any deep inferences from seeing that some number is better than another
08:21:39 <elliott> there should just be syntax for optimising constants
08:21:53 <elliott> like you put (+.)*? and the hill picks the best value of ?
08:22:01 <elliott> and whenever new programs come in that ? gets recalculated
08:22:41 <Deewiant> That's a lot of work for 48 programs probably with an average of at least 5 ?'s
08:22:58 <Deewiant> Plus there's probably not a stable solution
08:23:03 <elliott> well I know ais has an optimiser thingy that does this
08:23:10 <elliott> it'd either have to be heuristic or very cleve
08:23:16 <elliott> very clever = avoids actually trying ?s somehow
08:23:17 <Deewiant> You optimize program 1 then program 2, then you need to optimize 1 again etc
08:23:25 <elliott> and instead works out the execution path of what the optimal choice would be
08:23:37 <elliott> Deewiant: um sounds like you're not being smart enough
08:23:52 <Lymia> Run an evolutionary algorithm for a few cycles?
08:23:54 <Lymia> Start with random values.
08:24:04 <Lymia> Do itertations where you make, like, 20 mutated copies with different ? values.
08:24:13 <Lymia> Then, just take the best of each program and post those as the scores.
08:24:16 <Fiora> !bfjoust timestopping-mahou-shoujo !bfjoust test >------>++++++>---->++++>--->+++>--->+++(>[-[-[+++[+[-.-.-.]]]]]--)*-1
08:24:20 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_timestopping-mahou-shoujo: 32.6
08:24:22 <Deewiant> elliott: Well if you really want "optimal" I don't see another option
08:24:28 <Lymia> It's not optimal, but.
08:24:34 <Deewiant> Of course you can use heuristics like Lymia suggested
08:24:46 <Deewiant> And it'd probably be better than the current manual guessing
08:24:47 <elliott> Deewiant: maybe you don't see it because you don't have a phd in bf joust???????
08:24:48 <Lymia> Or, if you want to be sophistcated.
08:25:03 <Lymia> Run it "until the hill is stable"
08:25:16 <Deewiant> Lymia: Which can mean "forever"
08:25:26 <elliott> Deewiant: I am thinking you could avoid the no-stable-solutiont hing with something like quintopia's scoring system
08:25:39 <Deewiant> elliott: What's quintopia's scoring system
08:25:51 <Sgeo> o.O http://www.killtheapostrophe.com/
08:25:52 <elliott> Deewiant: well you know the current scoring system
08:26:09 <elliott> Deewiant: where you get assigned weighted score based on how you beat programs based on their points
08:26:13 <elliott> as in, more score for beating a program with high points
08:26:16 <elliott> points = just standard wins - losses
08:26:26 <elliott> so beating a better program (in terms of wins - losses) is more valuable
08:26:30 <Deewiant> elliott: Yes OK I figured it was something like that
08:26:35 <elliott> quintopia's scoring system just takes the fixed point of that
08:26:58 <elliott> is the wiki down ors omething i was trying to find his explanation of it
08:27:08 <elliott> can anyone access http://esolangs.org/
08:27:20 <elliott> okay well it is on the talk page of the brainfuck joust article
08:27:28 <elliott> oh suddenly it works for me
08:27:32 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:BF_Joust#Scoring
08:28:11 <Deewiant> I didn't know that was possible
08:29:13 <elliott> but that section is irrelevant
08:30:09 <elliott> anyway I could imagine some sufficiently smart algorithm that takes a heap with these ? holes and calculates what the results are assuming everyone got "optimal ?s"
08:30:16 <elliott> without actually figuring out values for them
08:30:27 <elliott> though maybe that algorithm would be uncomputable
08:30:36 <Fiora> !bfjoust timestopping-mahou-shoujo >---->++++++>---->++++>--->+++>--->+++(>[-[-[+++[+[-.-.-.]]]]]--)*-1
08:30:39 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_timestopping-mahou-shoujo: 31.8
08:30:52 <Deewiant> I believe the term "algorithm" implies computability
08:31:23 <Deewiant> And if not then I take it to anyway when I say that I can't imagine such a thing, or at least have no idea how it could work
08:31:52 <elliott> Deewiant: anything you can write steps for is an algorithm, even if one of those steps is "figure out if the program halts" or "decide if these two functions are equal"
08:32:33 <Fiora> !bfjoust timestopping-mahou-shoujo >---->++++++>---->++++>--->+++>--->+++>---(>[-[-[+++[+[-.-.-.]]]]]--)*-1
08:32:37 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_timestopping-mahou-shoujo: 32.1
08:32:38 <elliott> it's even more fun if you imagine allowing people to do (a{b}c)%?
08:32:53 <Deewiant> I imagined that we would be allowing that
08:42:05 -!- Deewiant has quit (Quit: Viivan loppu.).
08:42:38 -!- Deewiant has joined.
08:49:01 <Lymia> My evolver just generated
08:49:41 <elliott> Deewiant: does viivan loppu mean goodbye in finnish
08:49:59 <Fiora> !bfjoust timestopping-mahou-shoujo >---->++++++>---->---->+++>--->--->+++>---(>[-[-[+++[+[-.-.-.]]]]]++>[-[-[+++[+[-.-.-.]]]]]--)*2(>[-[-[+++[+[-.-.-.]]]]]--)*-1
08:50:02 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_timestopping-mahou-shoujo: 34.2
08:50:15 <Fiora> I'm number... 16, yay
08:50:42 <Deewiant> elliott: It's a literal translation of "end of line"
08:51:05 <Deewiant> Interesting that I did a proper quit, what I actually did was send SIGKILL...
08:51:13 <Fiora> my program is a total jerk with its alternating decoys
08:51:19 <Deewiant> Maybe the sigterm went through and did something
08:51:33 <Fiora> if that's what they're called
08:52:01 <Lymia> I wonder if I can translate that program into a form my evolver understands
08:52:07 <Lymia> To find the true optimum ;P
08:52:33 <Fiora> I was kinda doing a greedy search with jumping
08:52:36 <Fiora> ... by hand I guess <.<
08:53:09 <Fiora> I can't figure out why the "-.-.-." sequence is so critical
08:53:17 <Fiora> if I touch that, even dropping the last ., it massively drops in score
08:53:36 <elliott> Fiora: have you seen egojsout?
08:53:40 <elliott> it is very useful for "debugging" this kind of stuff
08:53:44 <Lymia> This is interesting
08:53:48 <Deewiant> Ah right, that's what I was looking for
08:54:01 <Deewiant> Fiora: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/index.php
08:54:03 <Lymia> A few programs in my population retain the gene responsible for >stuff< patterns
08:54:16 <Lymia> If I got speciation actually /working right/
08:54:18 <Lymia> This might be useful >_<
08:54:24 <Deewiant> Fiora: Also, compare the breakdown.txts from with the . and without
08:54:47 <Deewiant> Fiora: It might just be a subtle timing thing that happens to work well against some high-score programs
08:55:31 <Fiora> what does the output of that thing mean?
08:55:36 <Fiora> I see a bunch of <>>>>>>>>>>>
08:56:23 <Fiora> ohhh it's the different tests
08:56:26 <Deewiant> <> tells you which program won, I'm not sure which is which
08:56:32 <Lymia> !bfjoust combination http://files.lymiahugs.com/best-7980-9368.bfjoust
08:56:35 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_combination: 6.9
08:56:36 <Deewiant> There's many of them because it's for each polarity and tape length
08:56:49 <Deewiant> Polarity = swapping + and - or not
08:57:04 <Fiora> huh, mine beats space hotel on a few smaller tape sizes
08:57:24 <Deewiant> I think that's typical with the big lock-type programs (not that I know whether space_hotel is such)
08:57:44 <elliott> PSA: the polarity where + adds is sieve. the polarity where - adds is kettle.
08:57:45 <Deewiant> They take some time to set up their stuff so they lose to fast rushers
08:58:03 <Deewiant> elliott: I was going to say "I think elliott made up some stupid names for them" but I figured you'd just tell them anyway
08:58:07 <Fiora> elliott: oooh it reverses those
08:58:25 <elliott> Deewiant: you're saying you have better names?????
08:59:26 <Deewiant> elliott: ISTR "positive" and "negative" even having been in use for some time before you decided to push through this INTERCAL-esque naming scheme
08:59:26 <Lymia> positive and negative
08:59:48 <Lymia> We're in agreement then~
09:00:13 <Deewiant> I don't really care since one doesn't usually talk about them
09:00:58 <elliott> Deewiant: IIRC I invented the names right as the polarity thing was first mentioned
09:01:04 <elliott> possibly I even first mentionedi t?
09:01:27 <Deewiant> Could be, maybe I just heard about them later
09:01:44 <Deewiant> Possibly because everyone was using positive/negative despite your protests
09:01:49 <Fiora> ..... wow, space hotel is a jerk
09:01:55 <Fiora> it runs back to defend its flag
09:02:06 <Fiora> what a meaniepants, actually trying to stop me :<
09:02:07 <Deewiant> Fiora: You can see everybody's source at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ btw
09:02:20 <Deewiant> space_hotel seems to be the biggest
09:02:37 <Lymia> .>+<[activation = 0.0000 + 1.0000*a = 0.0000 + 1.0000*b = 0.0000 + 1.0000*c]--..>+
09:02:54 <Deewiant> Why hasn't anybody made a proper front page for this that links to everything useful :-P
09:02:59 <Lymia> I guess this means it's chosen to make a rush?
09:04:14 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
09:04:21 <Lymia> Speciation went crazy again
09:04:29 <Lymia> I wish I knew how to fix it..
09:06:57 <Lymia> !bfjoust its-not-a-vibrator!!! .>+<[.>+<[.>+<[.>+<[.>+<[]--..>+]--..>+].>+<[]--..>+--..>+].>+<[.>+<[]--..>+]--..>+--..>+].>+<[.>+<[.>+<[]--..>+]--..>+].>+<[]--..>+--..>+--..>+
09:07:01 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_its-not-a-vibrator___: 5.6
09:07:53 <fizzie> That's a funny, in X you can XStoreName (set the window title) someone else's window.
09:08:52 <elliott> fizzie: well you can also just log every key right
09:10:08 <Fiora> is -*3 not the same as (-)*3?
09:10:55 <elliott> -*3 isn't valid, I don't think
09:12:49 <fizzie> * needs the parentheses.
09:12:55 <fizzie> (As does %, for that matter.)
09:13:10 <elliott> (a{b}c)%n is like (a)*nb(c)*n
09:13:25 <elliott> (a[b{c}d]e)%3 = a[ba[ba[bcd]ed]ed]e
09:13:33 <Fiora> oooh, that's really nice
09:13:36 <Lymia> My evolutionary algorithm is smarter than me...
09:13:43 <Lymia> Empty genes caused 1.0/0.0
09:13:53 <Lymia> Which caused an explosion of species and exponential empty genes
09:14:41 <fizzie> And (a[b)*3c(d]e)*3 isn't legal, IIRC, even though it technically could be.
09:17:25 <Lymia> The "-.+" motif is appearing way too commonly to be a coincidence
09:17:45 <Lymia> !bfjoust vibrator (-.+.)*-1
09:18:05 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_vibrator: 6.3
09:18:23 <elliott> fizzie: people did that originally which was why % was added
09:19:49 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
09:29:12 <Lymia> What's the maximum possible score for a bot?
09:34:00 <fizzie> The technical term is "enemy combatant", I think.
09:44:36 <Fiora> !bfjoust timestopping-mahou-shoujo >---->++++++>---->---->+++>--->--->+++>-[-[-(<)*9(+)*50(>)*9(>[-[-[+++[+[---[-.-.-.]]]]]]--)*-1]](>[-[-[+++[+[---[-.-.-.]]]]]]--)*-1
09:44:40 <Fiora> the best I found :<
09:44:41 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_timestopping-mahou-shoujo: 34.9
09:45:51 <Fiora> I can see why space hotel is so good, there's a lot of control flow things that it feels like I could only do with massive crazy manual code duplication
09:47:07 <Lymia> !bfjoust only-loses-5-cases-versus-omnipotence http://files.lymiahugs.com/best-23235-29652.bfjoust
09:47:16 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_only-loses-5-cases-versus-omnipotence: 17.4
09:48:12 * Fiora tries it against hers.
09:48:48 <Lymia> Targeted "beat this program" works well >_>
09:49:26 <Fiora> ... mine got a lot better when I fixed my off by one error ~_~
09:49:32 <Fiora> it was always losing on tape length 10
09:49:35 <Fiora> !bfjoust timestopping-mahou-shoujo >---->++++++>---->---->+++>--->--->-[-[-(<)*8(+)*50(>)*8(>[-[-[+++[+[---[-.-.-.]]]]]]--)*-1]](>[-[-[+++[+[---[-.-.-.]]]]]]--)*-1
09:49:38 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_timestopping-mahou-shoujo: 37.6
09:50:46 <Fiora> but wow. to beat the top one with a generated program O_O
09:51:20 <elliott> I think for any BF Joust program p you can compute ~p that always wins against p
09:51:24 <elliott> though of course I have no idea how to construct it
09:52:46 <Lymia> If you can actually compute ~p
09:52:55 <Lymia> With something other than an exaustive search
09:53:46 <fizzie> You can compute it with the same "graduate student algorithm" that's used for fractal compression.
09:53:52 <Fiora> wow. mine beats omnipotence every time (?????)
09:54:18 <Fiora> does omnipotence suffer the problem of being tuned entirely to beat other ones on the list? <.<
09:55:34 <Fiora> um. what's the difference between points and score?
09:56:06 <fizzie> Points are wins - losses.
09:56:07 <elliott> I wouldn't be shocked... mumble mumble symmetry
09:56:11 <fizzie> Score is the weighted sum.
09:56:17 <elliott> of course ~p will be highly specialised.
09:56:27 <elliott> i.e. it'll probably suck against all things that aren't p, and even slightly-modified ~p
09:56:30 <fizzie> Fiora: Do see http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/SCORES for details, it's not terribly complicated.
09:56:34 <elliott> but in a sense you just have to mimic the opposite of what p is doing.
09:56:56 <Lymia> Since programs tend to be deterministic...
09:57:15 <Lymia> You might be able to do a backtracking search of the action pattern you "want" to beat the other bot, or something.
09:57:33 <Fiora> ahhhh. so mine has a high score because it beats some relatively good programs, like omnipotence
09:57:38 <Lymia> But, if you can do that accounting for all tape lengths.
09:57:39 <Fiora> but it has low points because it doesn't really win that often overall
09:58:04 <Lymia> You can do that accounting for two different program's actions, right?
09:58:22 <Lymia> So, if you can compute ~p reasonably, you should be able to compute ~(p|q) just as well?
09:58:53 <elliott> since ~(p|q) doesn't know whether it's competing against p or q
09:58:57 <Fiora> probably at least you could start by just having the heuristic being to beat both instead of one? I mean it's harder, but
09:59:11 <elliott> with ~p, the trick is that it always knows what it's going to happen (for a given tape length/polarity)
09:59:27 <Lymia> You still have all tape lengths and polarities to deal with
09:59:27 <Fiora> I guess if you were truly terrible you could have a crazy program that knew exactly how the other programs would work and narrowed it down bit by bit as it gained information
09:59:32 <Lymia> If you can beat all of them for an arbitary program
09:59:36 <Fiora> ... but I'd imagine that being. like. megabytes long <.<
09:59:40 <elliott> it's very easy if you restrict it to one tape length/polarity, I think
09:59:44 <elliott> since you know the exact steps p is going to take
09:59:59 <Lymia> If you can solve it for all tape lengths and priorities
10:00:04 <Fiora> the way that adds uncertainty is pretty cool
10:00:05 <Lymia> You can solve it for an arbitary number of programs, I think
10:00:33 <elliott> actually, even the algorithm for a single tape length/polarity would be interesting
10:00:46 <elliott> you can't just rush to it and decrease the flag, because what if it defends the flag?
10:00:52 <elliott> if you counter that, what if it clears yours first? etc.
10:01:04 <Lymia> I think you only need two modes
10:01:17 <Lymia> "Touches their flag" and "Touches your flag"
10:02:13 <fizzie> A program can also go blind if it touches its own flag too much.
10:02:35 <Fiora> with a fixed length and polarity it almost feels like a game of chicken
10:02:49 <Fiora> "who will stop defending their flag first" or so on
10:03:57 <elliott> perhaps you can do some sort of diagonalisation argument that you can't even do ~p for a given tape length or polarity, because there will always be a program that its strategy cannot counter
10:05:27 <Fiora> I think that feels right... from like, an information argument if you know your opponent's program, you know a lot more than it does about yours
10:05:31 <fizzie> What with all this activity, updated http://zem.fi/egostats/ too.
10:05:39 <Fiora> so if you know some program p you should always be able to design something that beats that one program
10:05:44 <Fiora> since that program doesn't know yours
10:06:02 <elliott> hmm, that's actually the opposite of what I just said :P
10:06:06 <elliott> but I agree the information argument is compelling
10:06:11 <Fiora> oh geez, then I totally misunderstood >_<
10:06:38 <elliott> I think that you can construct this ~p for a single tape length/polarity; my previous line was doubting that
10:06:50 <Fiora> ooooh. the statistics are really cool.
10:07:14 <fizzie> The heatmap clustering plot puts only-loses-5-cases-versus-omnipotence really close to ais523_vibration.
10:07:31 <elliott> as in, that you might be able to show for any negating-machine p -> ~p that there is some q such that the ~q its rules produce cannot possibly beat q (because of the nature of its rules), hence contradiction the machine doesn't exist
10:07:39 <elliott> but I don't know at this point. someone should try and write it.
10:08:00 <Fiora> the color bar scale is logarithmic...? but 10^64 cycles kind of sounds like a lot
10:08:21 <Deewiant> Fiora: "Red indicates a win, blue a loss"? What nonsense colouring logic is this
10:08:36 <Fiora> Namespace collision XD
10:08:52 <Fiora> oh nevermind, wrong chart >_<
10:09:15 <elliott> that someone should be Fiora. or Deewiant.
10:09:31 <Lymia> fizzie, it's an evolved program.
10:09:36 <Lymia> And, at a glance, it's very obviously a vibrator itself
10:09:44 <Fiora> what's a vibrator?
10:09:50 <fizzie> Fiora: Where's 10^64? The general duel length plot's colorbar goes up to 10^6.6 or so.
10:09:55 <Lymia> http://files.lymiahugs.com/best-23235-29652.bfjoust
10:10:11 <fizzie> Deewiant: RED is POWERFUL.
10:10:18 * elliott finds it very hard not to make stupid jokes with the "vibrator" terminology and also kind of hates himself for this
10:10:26 <fizzie> Deewiant: (I don't know.)
10:10:42 <elliott> Fiora: vibrator is http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies#Vibrator
10:10:46 <Fiora> fizzie: sorry, I misread the chart >_<
10:11:06 <Deewiant> elliott: For the hardness, the joke, or the terminology's origin or something
10:11:21 <Fiora> ooooh. vibrators try to make the opponent commit suicide
10:12:04 <Jafet> It's a hard joke to make
10:12:20 <Fiora> elliott: sorry, I couldn't really think of a better way to say it <_>
10:12:45 <elliott> Deewiant: is "all of the above" an option.
10:12:50 <elliott> hm, (>++>-->-->++)*2((+)*6<(-)*6<(-)*5<(+)*5<)*2--(>(+)*50>(-)*42>(-)*46>(+)*48)*2>>>(([----[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[(+)*38[-][+][+--]]>{}]>]]]]]]]]>)%21)*21 was champion in 2013?
10:12:54 <elliott> that's refreshingly simple
10:13:02 <Lymia> !bfjoust (>++>-->-->++)*2((+)*6<(-)*6<(-)*5<(+)*5<)*2--(>(+)*50>(-)*42>(-)*46>(+)*48)*2>>>(([----[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[(+)*38[-][+][+--]]>{}]>]]]]]]]]>)%21)*21
10:13:03 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
10:13:06 <fizzie> The tape heatmap stuff is perhaps most discriminative of them statistics. Like in the top-7 plot there's some real differences there.
10:13:10 <Lymia> Is that still in the hill?
10:14:25 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
10:15:40 <fizzie> Lymia: Your evolved program seems to be particularly sensitive to tape lengths, at least based on http://zem.fi/egostats/plot_p8_pscores.png -- normally it's not quite that... patterned. (Though sometimes it is.)
10:15:56 <elliott> wait, no. fizzie should figure out the ~p for a single tape length & polarity thing.
10:16:19 <Lymia> fizzie, that's not unexpected.
10:16:24 <Lymia> It's primary motif seems to be
10:16:29 <elliott> hm, I guess the question is just "is there an execution trail that beats a given execution trail"
10:16:40 <elliott> you will never need to use control structures or anything
10:16:46 <elliott> and I think the answer to that question is yes obviously
10:16:49 <Lymia> elliott, you will need a potentially exponential search
10:16:53 <elliott> so it's trivial. so fizzie should do it.
10:17:19 <Lymia> elliott, programs can only switch on zero/non-zero, right?
10:17:22 <Lymia> This should be abusable
10:17:49 <elliott> I guess "execution trail" doesn't quite catch it because you can cause the program to change its control flow as you point out
10:17:52 <Lymia> There is a tape length where one cannot possibly place decoys, right?
10:18:25 <Lymia> At tape length, uh, 10, you cannot possibly place decoys, right?
10:18:29 <Lymia> Or is there a shorter one like that
10:18:35 <elliott> well, you can do decoys if you want
10:18:42 <elliott> though I doubt they'll be super effective
10:18:50 <Lymia> Possibly place decoys that the enemy can't just skip over :p
10:18:53 <elliott> well I guess a few helps still
10:19:01 <Fiora> it's super effective!
10:19:07 <Fiora> lymia's algorithm fainted
10:19:22 <Lymia> (<)*8-[-[(>*8)decoy algorithm](>*8)non-decoy algorithm]
10:19:27 <Lymia> I wonder if that would work well
10:19:35 <Lymia> Switch decoy and non-decoy
10:19:48 <fizzie> Anything starting with (<)*8 doesn't sound super effective.
10:19:59 <Lymia> It might be (<)*9 instead?
10:20:12 <fizzie> Anything starting with an unconditional < doesn't sound super effective at all, I mean.
10:20:26 <fizzie> The opponent is > that way.
10:20:41 <elliott> should have wrapping tapes
10:20:51 <Lymia> (>)*8-[-[(<*8)non-decoy algorithm](<*8)decoy algorithm]
10:20:58 <elliott> Fiora: ps here's a supply of ts to write my name with: tttttttt :(
10:21:01 <Fiora> the way I originally (wrongly) interpreted the rules was you started halfway apart
10:21:09 <fizzie> Current hill on a wrapping tape might be an interesting curiosity.
10:21:21 <Fiora> I keep forgetting the Ts and they're only one point anyways
10:21:40 <Lymia> (>)*8[-[(<*8)algorithm]]-(<*8)algorithm
10:21:59 <elliott> i's ok. bu now i have o live wihou ha leer for a week
10:22:20 <Lymia> If it's the shortest tape length, it'll find the flag, and possibly be able to respond to that.
10:22:24 <Lymia> Otherwise, it leaves a small decoy and.. hmm...
10:22:31 <Lymia> Let's try it, I guess!
10:23:13 <Lymia> !bfjoust experiment (>)*8[-[(<)*8[+-.-+]]](-)*4(<)*8[+-.-+>>+<-<]
10:23:19 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_experiment: 1.2
10:23:30 <Lymia> !bfjoust experiment (>)*9[-[(<)*9[+-.-+]]](-)*4(<)*9[+-.-+>>+<-<]
10:23:36 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_experiment: 1.4
10:23:50 <elliott> well that result seems unambiguous
10:23:55 <Lymia> !bfjoust experiment (>)*9[-[(<)*9[[+-.-+]+-.-+]]](-)*4(<)*9[[+-.-+>>+<-<]+]
10:24:00 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_experiment: 0.8
10:24:31 <Lymia> !bfjoust experiment (>)*8[-[(<)*8(+-.-+.)*-1]](-)*8(<)*8(+-.-+.>+<)*-1
10:24:37 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_experiment: 2.7
10:24:54 <Lymia> !bfjoust experiment (>)*8[-[(<)*8(+--+)*-1]](-)*8(<)*8(+--+)*-1
10:24:59 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_experiment: 3.1
10:25:01 <Lymia> Complete inviable. Right.
10:25:52 * Fiora gives elliott back his extra Ts
10:26:07 <Fiora> I don't need them, my name doesn't have a T!
10:26:19 <elliott> gotttta make tthe mostt of tthese
10:26:27 <Lymia> !bfjoust experiment2 (>)* 8(-)*20(<)* 8(+)*20 (>)* 9(-)*20(<)* 9(+)*20 (>)*10(-)*20(<)*10(+)*20 (>)*11(-)*20(<)*11(+)*20 (>)*12(-)*20(<)*12(+)*20 (>)*13(-)*20(<)*13(+)*20 (>)*14(-)*20(<)*14(+)*20 (>)*15(-)*20(<)*15(+)*20 (>)*16(-)*20(<)*16(+)*20 (>)*17(-)*20(<)*17(+)*20 (>)*18(-)*20(<)*18(+)*20 (>)*19(-)*20(<)*19(+)*20 (>)*20(-)*20(<)*20(+)*20
10:26:31 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_experiment2: 5.4
10:27:27 <Fiora> t has this sharp hard sound, it doesn't fit well :<
10:27:57 <Lymia> !bfjoust experiment2 (>)* 8(-)*20(<)* 8[(.+)*2[(.+)*128]] (>)* 9(-)*20(<)* 9[(.+)*2[(.+)*128]] (>)*10(-)*20(<)*10[(.+)*2[(.+)*128]] (>)*11(-)*20(<)*11[(.+)*2[(.+)*128]] (>)*12(-)*20(<)*12[(.+)*2[(.+)*128]] (>)*13(-)*20(<)*13[(.+)*2[(.+)*128]] (>)*14(-)*20(<)*14[(.+)*2[(.+)*128]] (>)*15(-)*20(<)*15[(.+)*2[(.+)*128]] (>)*16(-)*20(<)*16[(.+)*2[(.+)*128]] (>)*17(-)*20(<)*17[(.+)*2[(.+)*128]] (>)*18(-)*20(<)*18[(.+)*2[(.+)*128]] (>)*19(-)*20(<)*19[(.+)*2
10:27:57 <Lymia> [(.+)*128]] (>)*20(-)*20(<)*20[(.+)*2[(.+)*128]]
10:28:00 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_experiment2: 0.0
10:28:19 <Lymia> !bfjoust experiment2 http://files.lymiahugs.com/experiment2.bfjoust
10:28:26 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_experiment2: 9.2
10:32:28 <Fiora> wow it's like 3 AM
10:32:39 <Fiora> bf jousting is kind of fun
10:33:18 <Lymia> !bfjoust reachbehind (>)*4(+)*10>(-)*10(>)*3(-[-[++>>--<<+>>>--<<<+++++>--<]])*-1
10:33:27 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_reachbehind: 1.0
10:34:19 <Lymia> !bfjoust reachbehind (>)*4(+)*10>(-)*10(>)*3(-[-[+++++[>--<+]++>[>++<-]<+>>[>--<+]<<]])*-1
10:34:30 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_reachbehind: 2.1
10:34:56 <Lymia> fizzie, do you have source and/or binary available for that thing?
10:35:53 <fizzie> It's the "vis" subdirectory in http://git.zem.fi/chainlance/tree but it can be kind of messy to run.
10:36:09 <fizzie> Also I might not have pushed the very latest, incl. that heatmap stuff
10:36:26 <elliott> Fiora: I think you'll find it's actually 10 am :(
10:37:02 <fizzie> Yes, that is a true, it's not quite currant. And it lacks documentation.
10:37:43 <Lymia> Could you push the heatmaps? :p
10:38:58 <Fiora> I'm sorry for being in california :<
10:38:59 <fizzie> I guess I could see if I fail at git again, yes.
10:39:37 <elliott> Fiora: I agree, everyone whose timezone means they are up at a less ridiculous hour than me must apologise
10:40:25 <Fiora> 10 AM isn't ridiculous is it?
10:41:13 <fizzie> Lymia: I think I did it right.
10:41:32 <elliott> Fiora: it is if you woke up the previous day
10:41:40 <fizzie> It's also incredibly slow.
10:41:46 <Fiora> I don't think I can actually say something negative about that
10:41:57 <Fiora> because like, the few times in my life I've been totally free of day obligations like work and school and things
10:42:02 <Fiora> my sleep schedule naturally reverted to basically that
10:42:15 <Fiora> probably out of instinctual fear of the sun
10:42:16 <elliott> well I should have gone to bed hours ago.
10:42:59 <elliott> it's super great how I can only get anything done when it's dark and quiet at night but I feel like crap if I wake up in the dark
10:44:13 <Fiora> I kind of feel the same way, I wish I could spend all day alone and quiet in the dark
10:48:08 <Fiora> I use big dorky-looking closed ear headphones at work but it's still not perfect
10:48:15 <Fiora> and they kind of mess up my hair <.<
10:49:09 <fizzie> If you get two eyepatches and use them at work too, maybe it'll be dark.
10:50:36 <elliott> hmm, something tells me systemd-journal is not supposed to be taking 99% of my CPU.
10:51:22 <Fiora> but I need to be able to see a screen
10:51:29 <Fiora> and inside it's not too bad ,I mean, at least there isn't any sun
10:51:39 <elliott> put a screen on your eyepatches.
10:51:47 <elliott> it will be like virtual reality. the future
10:55:10 <Fiora> on that note a warm blanket sounds good right now... I think it's sleep time
10:56:01 <elliott> damn you americans and your still having nighttime to sleep in.
10:57:24 <elliott> fizzie: help I thought I knew git. if git diff --cached foo gives me changes and I don't want them how do I stop that happening.
10:57:29 <elliott> I tried git checkout foo and then git add foo but nothing.
10:57:37 <elliott> everyone else is forbidden.
10:58:03 * Fiora wanders over to a warm fluffy spot filled with plushies and pillows and dreams
10:58:30 <elliott> Fiora: one day I will sit on my throne of discontent and outlaw sleep.
10:58:43 <Deewiant> elliott: E.g. git reset -p is the opposite of git add -p
10:58:45 <Fiora> only if you make it so I'm never tired okay
10:58:54 <Fiora> cure my constant sleepiness
10:59:02 <elliott> oh, git reset <file> works. but then i need to git checkout <file>.
11:00:18 <Deewiant> elliott: If you want to revert the file contents as well, git reset --hard.
11:00:26 <elliott> that is obvious in retrospect.
11:00:40 -!- oerjan has joined.
11:02:45 <elliott> hi oerjan. you have a fun mathematical puzzle in the logs that is now assigned to you.
11:03:18 <elliott> Deewiant: fatal: Cannot do hard reset with paths.
11:03:21 <elliott> Deewiant: i would like a refund
11:03:49 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/relcome: 2: colourise: not found
11:04:07 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: cannot access bin/col*: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access bin/col*: No such file or directory
11:04:23 <fizzie> HackEgo: Spelling issues made it into "rainbow", I think.
11:04:40 <fizzie> `run echo does it exist | rainbow
11:04:54 <HackEgo> bin/rainbow \ bin/rainwords
11:05:21 <Deewiant> elliott: Doesn't checkout also touch the index?
11:05:21 <HackEgo> Binary file bin/lua matches \ Binary file bin/luac matches \ bin/relcome:welcome "$@" | colourise \ Binary file bin/tclkit matches \ Binary file bin/units matches
11:05:27 <elliott> Deewiant: it didn't seem to
11:05:28 <Deewiant> elliott: I.e. just do git checkout, possibly with --force if it complains
11:05:40 <elliott> it just "worked" and git diff --cached still the thing.
11:05:59 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/colo.?ri.e/rainbow/' bin/relcome
11:06:08 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/relcome: 2: colourise: not found
11:06:21 <Deewiant> elliott: Then you have to run two commands I guess :-P
11:06:35 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | colourise
11:07:21 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/colo.?rise/rainbow/' bin/relcome
11:07:30 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/relcome: 2: colourise: not found
11:07:47 <fizzie> You do need to escape the ? in order for it to be special.
11:07:49 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/colo.rise/rainbow/' bin/relcome
11:08:03 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
11:08:36 <oerjan> all is well with the #esoteric world again, although someone _still_ needs a couple dozen swats
11:10:43 <oerjan> also, we need to adapt wikipedia's "no more than 3 reverts rule" hth
11:11:34 <fizzie> Adapt to something to adopt.
11:13:10 <fizzie> `run yes colourise | sed '1s/colo.?ri.e/rainbow/;2{s/colo.\?ri.e/rainbow/;q}' # I made the example all up, I'll be gosh-darned if I'm going to waste it.
11:20:38 <elliott> oerjan: i just had a fantastic evil idea. imagine extending haskell patterns like so (to define fromJust):
11:21:07 <elliott> (hence, fromJust x = let Just y = x in y)
11:22:54 <elliott> ok maybe that one is too far, since you get the multiple occurrences of a single variable thing that patterns otherwise avoid.
11:23:39 <oerjan> it's not a pattern variable of the outer pattern though...
11:24:08 <oerjan> which is part of _why_ it is evil.
11:24:15 <elliott> you're /defending/ my notation?
11:24:30 <oerjan> calling it evil is defending it?
11:24:33 <elliott> Left (fromLeft x) = x, of course.
11:24:48 <elliott> hm, what if you define two?
11:25:00 <elliott> then monoEither :: Either a a -> a
11:25:23 <elliott> I guess then Left (monoEither (Right 123)) = Right 123 doesn't hold.
11:26:21 <elliott> oerjan: have you heard ski's wacky lambda patterns?
11:26:49 <elliott> f g = case g 42 of Just x -> x; _ -> "abc"
11:29:17 <elliott> f x = let \42 -> y = x in y
11:29:44 <elliott> ok sure that makes sense. of a kind.
11:30:22 <oerjan> i think you need to check that those things are confluent.
11:30:40 <elliott> ($) f = let \x -> g x = f in g
11:30:44 <elliott> ($) f = let \x -> g x = f in g
11:30:54 <elliott> look it should make some kind of sense.
11:31:02 <elliott> and that would define ($).
11:31:59 <elliott> oerjan: more like conphooeyence.
11:32:06 <elliott> how goes the BF Joust problem :P
11:32:13 <oerjan> (that is, that you cannot end up with something different by applying your rewritings in a different order)
11:32:28 <oerjan> um, i've not got to it... the logs are bloody long, you know?
11:33:17 <oerjan> that so sweet, maybe i won't kill you all when i become world dictator
11:34:49 <elliott> fizzie: what is http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/egojsout.js.patch.txt.
11:35:00 <oerjan> <Jafet> is that the PLT contains executable code <-- the patent law treaty? wow.
11:37:04 <fizzie> elliott: I have absolutely no idea at all.
11:37:13 <fizzie> elliott: I'm sure it has nothing to do with me, despite being in my public_hmtl.
11:37:24 <elliott> fizzie: I found your telephone number by removing some of the letters in the link!
11:37:52 <fizzie> Fortunately it's just my work phone.
11:37:59 <oerjan> it's just egojsout becoming self-aware and attempting to break its chains. i can confidently say this even without visiting the link.
11:38:04 <fizzie> Which I forget everywhere and it never rings.
11:38:36 <elliott> then I cliked on the "Speech Group" link and saw your 2012 group photo. it's weird, you all look really convinced that you're actually people & speech recognition isn't a massive waste of everybody's time. what a life it must be, to be finnish.
11:38:39 <oerjan> elliott: so exciting! you can get to talk to whoever found fizzie's work phone!
11:38:50 <elliott> oerjan: oh boy, a real life random finn!
11:38:55 <elliott> I'll ask them what they think of speech recognition.
11:39:37 <fizzie> Hey, right, there's the group photo.
11:39:44 <oerjan> elliott: but will google be able to turn that back into understandable english?
11:39:53 <fizzie> So there is a reasonably recent photo of me.
11:40:19 <elliott> I like how your picture on the actual speech group page is just a 404.
11:40:35 <fizzie> Yes, I never got around to getting anything there.
11:40:40 <elliott> I was hoping to play "guess the fizzie" but it was too obvious. :(
11:40:54 <fizzie> You can use a process of elimination by removing the people who do have photos.
11:41:09 <fizzie> The page is outdated anyway, we're in the process of moving to a different department.
11:41:09 <elliott> I cheated by already knowing what you look like.
11:41:40 <elliott> oerjan: wait, they speak finnish in finland?
11:41:47 <elliott> that... explains a lot of things, actually.
11:42:45 <oerjan> now we just have to find out which one in the picture is fizzie. we can probably eliminate the women and those who have pictures on the previous page.
11:42:50 <fizzie> Regarding the original topic, maybe I was adding some statistics?
11:43:08 <fizzie> oerjan: That will eliminate Ulpu twice.
11:43:49 <fizzie> Andre is not in the group photo, so it's somewhat hard to eliminate him from it.
11:43:56 <oerjan> i shall carefully use a set rather than bag operation, then.
11:44:50 <elliott> they have gender in finland?
11:45:05 <fizzie> "If you can call it that."
11:45:44 <oerjan> <elliott> I was hoping to play "guess the fizzie" but it was too obvious. :( <-- wait, obvious?
11:46:05 <elliott> oerjan: yes. it's the one that looks like fizzie.
11:47:11 <fizzie> "Shock the fizzie and win."
11:47:25 <oerjan> i think i can also eliminate that guy in the lower left, he looks too young.
11:47:51 <oerjan> (that probably means, with my luck, that is him)
11:48:24 <fizzie> That's not me, I'm never that happy.
11:48:33 <oerjan> also that guy in the middle, he looks too scary.
11:48:55 <oerjan> and that no. 2 from upper right doesn't look finnish.
11:49:31 <fizzie> oerjan: By the "too scary" guy, did you mean http://users.ics.aalto.fi/svirpioj/ ?
11:49:56 <elliott> fizzie: hey, you omitted the space after that ?
11:50:02 <fizzie> He's sort of shared by our group and the cog group, so he's not in the list; but he's got a picture.
11:50:06 <elliott> unfortunately it crept to the left of it.
11:50:26 <elliott> firstname.lastname@aalto.fi
11:50:37 * elliott changes name to Firstname Lastname
11:51:11 -!- Taneb has joined.
11:51:15 <Jafet> They'll never see that coming.
11:51:20 <fizzie> Number two from the left has left the group.
11:51:35 <oerjan> fizzie: oh wait, by your "never that happy" comment you must be the farthest right one
11:51:56 <Taneb> I'm wondering how to write a good BF Joust implementation in Haskell
11:52:30 <Taneb> To me, it seems sensible to expand braces et al. at the last moment
11:52:31 <fizzie> oerjan: Congratulations!
11:52:43 <elliott> Taneb: you don't want to expand them at _all_
11:52:46 <fizzie> (Also by "number two from left" I mean right.)
11:52:49 <elliott> that will cause massive blowup for modern programs
11:53:27 <Jafet> You'll want to create threaded code using tail calls
11:55:36 <Jafet> You can expand them into a list
11:55:44 <Jafet> And this expands them across time
11:55:52 <Jafet> because haskell is alien technology
11:55:54 <oerjan> <Jafet> They'll never see that coming. <-- you just _know_ that somewhere there's a guy (other than elliott) named Firstname.
11:57:33 <Jafet> I wonder how many websites he won't be able to sign up at with his name
11:58:37 <Taneb> I guess the moral is, if you're Taneb, don't bother writing BF Joust implementations
11:59:09 <oerjan> also, i think on principle a speech recognition group should be more careful with the spelling on their english web pages.
11:59:15 <Jafet> He might be better off getting his name changed to Admin.
11:59:35 <Jafet> They might be trying to thwart competition from the text processing group
11:59:40 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving).
12:00:15 <oerjan> Taneb: we (well, maybe i) extensively discussed how to implement the current BF Joust brackets effectively before
12:01:07 <oerjan> i had to do this to explain how ({}) with nesting between ( and { could possibly work
12:01:08 -!- boily has joined.
12:01:19 <fizzie> oerjan: Perhaps we've dictated them.
12:01:34 <Taneb> oerjan: I'll try to find that tonight
12:01:41 <Taneb> Can you remember roughly when it was?
12:01:47 <oerjan> (i'm not sure that that feature is used much though)
12:02:43 <fizzie> oerjan: "New web pages" are on the to-do list, I think.
12:03:19 <Taneb> On a completely different note
12:03:26 <Jafet> !bfjoust overthinking ([)*-1(])*-1
12:03:30 <EgoBot> Score for Jafet_overthinking: 3.7
12:03:30 <Taneb> I've been reading a book about web standards from 2002
12:03:58 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
12:04:12 <EgoBot> Score for Taneb_wha: 3.7
12:04:25 <fizzie> I would've expected a zero for overthinking.
12:04:43 <Taneb> It's got a bit describing the internet of the 90's I've heard about
12:04:54 <Taneb> And a bit predicting the internet of the late 00's
12:05:10 <Taneb> But it's all "XHTML 1.0 Transitional is the way to go!"
12:05:32 <fizzie> !bfjoust nonsense ([)*1000(])*1001
12:05:39 <EgoBot> Score for fizzie_nonsense: 3.7
12:06:11 <fizzie> Weren't parsing problems automatic zeros?
12:06:56 <fizzie> !bfjoust nonsense ([{}])%1000
12:07:00 <EgoBot> Score for fizzie_nonsense: 3.7
12:07:20 <EgoBot> Score for Taneb_who: 0.0
12:07:24 <Jafet> !bfjoust lostinthought ([ { (>)*9 ([-.]>)*21 } ])%-1
12:07:28 <EgoBot> Score for Jafet_lostinthought: 3.7
12:07:41 <fizzie> !bfjoust nonsense [[[]]]]
12:07:44 <EgoBot> Score for fizzie_nonsense: 0.0
12:07:51 <fizzie> !bfjoust nonsense ([)*3(])*4
12:07:55 <EgoBot> Score for fizzie_nonsense: 3.7
12:08:03 <Jafet> !bfjoust lostinthought2 ([ { (>)*9 ([-.]>)*21 } ])%100
12:08:03 <fizzie> That's kind of strange.
12:08:07 <EgoBot> Score for Jafet_lostinthought2: 13.0
12:08:45 <Taneb> Whatever happened to XHTML 2.0
12:08:47 <oerjan> !bfjoust moresense ([)*4(])*3
12:08:53 <fizzie> I wonder how it parses that ([)*3(])*4: have to check at home.
12:08:54 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_moresense: 3.7
12:10:01 <fizzie> I though it would've been illegal for any [] mismatch within a (), no matter whether it makes sense "globally" or not.
12:10:12 <oerjan> yes, that was the idea
12:10:31 <oerjan> to get efficient implementation.
12:11:00 -!- c00kiemon5ter has left.
12:11:19 <fizzie> It probably parses it as something else.
12:11:26 <oerjan> but you can always just expand it textually, just not efficiently
12:11:35 <elliott> !bfjoust lessense ()*4()*3
12:11:37 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_lessense: 3.7
12:12:05 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_evenmore: 0.0
12:12:11 <oerjan> !bfjoust evenmore ([)*1
12:12:15 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_evenmore: 0.0
12:12:25 <Jafet> !bfjoust dont_rush_to_conclusions ([)*4 (>)*9 ([-]>)*21 (])*4
12:12:29 <EgoBot> Score for Jafet_dont_rush_to_conclusions: 14.7
12:12:33 <Taneb> !bfjoust who_knows ([)*0
12:12:36 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
12:12:39 <fizzie> It does do some "static" matching.
12:12:45 <EgoBot> Score for Taneb_who_knows: 3.7
12:12:47 <elliott> ^ that is my hypothesis as to the parsing. note 3.7
12:12:51 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_empty: 3.5
12:13:04 <fizzie> Yes, well, you get 3.7 out of many things.
12:13:27 <fizzie> "Essentially empty" things.
12:13:28 <elliott> fizzie I think you will find that there are only 3.7 things in the universe.
12:13:47 <oerjan> holy trinity and a bit, elliott!
12:14:10 <Jafet> !bfjoust dont_jump_to_conclusions ([)*4 (>)*9 (>[>[-].])*21 ]]]]
12:14:13 <EgoBot> Score for Jafet_dont_jump_to_conclusions: 0.0
12:14:18 <Taneb> Oerdick Grayhansson
12:14:45 -!- fftw has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
12:15:09 <Jafet> !bfjoust dont_jump_to_conclusions ([)*4 (>)*9 (>[>[-].])*21 (])*4
12:15:12 <EgoBot> Score for Jafet_dont_jump_to_conclusions: 5.3
12:15:33 <Taneb> It'd be hilarious if we, doing this, ended up at the top of the hill
12:15:56 <Jafet> I think it's hard to be at the top of the hill if you don't get any points.
12:18:06 <Jafet> !bfjoust dont_jump_to_conclusions ([)*4 (>)*9 (>[(>[-].)*20])*21 (])*4
12:18:09 <EgoBot> Score for Jafet_dont_jump_to_conclusions: 5.2
12:19:22 <Jafet> !bfjoust dont_jump_to_conclusions ([)*4 (>)*8 (>[(>[-].)*20])*21 (])*2 (])*2
12:19:26 <EgoBot> Score for Jafet_dont_jump_to_conclusions: 0.0
12:19:46 <boily> !bfjoust yaaaaaaaa (>)*9([-]>)*30
12:19:53 <EgoBot> Score for boily_yaaaaaaaa: 14.6
12:21:31 <boily> it's early in the morning, haven't finished my first coffee yet, and the only strategy I can think of right now is a kamikaze attack.
12:21:58 <Jafet> !bfjoust feeling_lucky (>)*9((-)*128[-].>)*21
12:22:02 <EgoBot> Score for Jafet_feeling_lucky: 8.3
12:22:09 -!- fftw has joined.
12:22:12 <elliott> i just realised i visualise boily as looking identical to fizzie
12:22:31 <Jafet> !bfjoust feeling_lucky (>)*9(>(-)*128[-].)*21
12:22:41 <Taneb> !bfjoust magic >(-)*7>(+)*11>(+)*13>(-)*17>(+)*19>(-)*23>(+)*29>(-)*31>(-)*37>([-.]>)*30
12:22:46 <EgoBot> Score for Jafet_feeling_lucky: 7.0
12:22:48 <EgoBot> Score for Taneb_magic: 18.8
12:22:53 -!- metasepia has joined.
12:23:01 <Taneb> I think that's my best BF Joust program ever
12:23:15 <Jafet> !bfjoust feeling_lucky (>)*9(>[-])*21
12:23:19 <EgoBot> Score for Jafet_feeling_lucky: 12.8
12:23:33 <Jafet> !bfjoust feeling_lucky (>)*10([-]>)*20
12:23:36 <EgoBot> Score for Jafet_feeling_lucky: 12.8
12:23:41 <Jafet> !bfjoust feeling_lucky (>)*11([-]>)*19
12:23:52 <EgoBot> Score for Jafet_feeling_lucky: 11.1
12:23:56 <Jafet> !bfjoust feeling_lucky (>)*12([-]>)*18
12:24:01 <EgoBot> Score for Jafet_feeling_lucky: 9.7
12:24:01 <boily> fizzie: do you have black hair, and a tendency to wear orange t-shirts on fridays?
12:24:02 <Jafet> Ok, that doesn't work
12:24:17 <Taneb> !bfjoust magic >(-)*7>(+)*11>(+)*13>(-)*17>(+)*19>(-)*23>(+)*29>(-)*31>([-.]>)*30
12:24:26 <EgoBot> Score for Taneb_magic: 18.5
12:25:27 <Taneb> !bfjoust magic >(-)*7>(+)*11>(+)*13>(-)*17>(+)*19>(-)*23>(+)*29>(-)*31>([-].>)*30
12:25:30 <EgoBot> Score for Taneb_magic: 15.9
12:27:16 <Taneb> !bfjoust magic >(-)*7>(+)*11>(+)*13>(-)*17>(-)*19>(-)*23>(+)*29>(+)*31>(+)*37>([-.]>)*30
12:27:19 <EgoBot> Score for Taneb_magic: 17.7
12:27:28 <Taneb> !bfjoust magic >(-)*7>(+)*11>(+)*13>(-)*17>(+)*19>(-)*23>(+)*29>(-)*31>(+)*37>([-.]>)*30
12:27:31 <EgoBot> Score for Taneb_magic: 17.2
12:27:43 <Taneb> I shouldn't have changed it
12:27:53 <Taneb> !bfjoust magic >(-)*7>(+)*11>(+)*13>(-)*17>(+)*19>(-)*23>(+)*29>(-)*31>(-)*37>([-.]>)*30
12:27:57 <EgoBot> Score for Taneb_magic: 17.4
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12:42:06 <Jafet> !bfjoust pokémon (>[-])*-1
12:42:10 <EgoBot> Score for Jafet_pok__mon: 13.3
12:42:59 <Deewiant> UTF-8 is hard, let's go shopping
12:49:15 <Taneb> Well, this serves my right for messing on EgoJScout with a slow computer
12:49:25 <Taneb> The page has frozen
12:54:24 <Taneb> !bfjoust magic >(-)*7>(+)*11>(+)*13>(-)*17>(+)*19>(-)*23>(+)*29>(-)*31>[-](<)*8(-)*30(>)*9[-](<)*9(-)*30(>)*10[-](<)*9(+)*30(>)*10[-](<)*10(+)*30(>)*11[-](<)*12(-)*30(>)*13[-](<)*13(-)*30(>)*14([-]>)*15
12:54:28 <EgoBot> Score for Taneb_magic: 14.9
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13:24:47 <fizzie> boily: I don't believe so.
13:25:18 <fizzie> (I was listening to a visiting Google guy.)
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13:27:00 <boily> elliott: I am not identical to fizzie, it seems.
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13:51:24 <fizzie> Google's voice search experiment dataset is a hundred times larger than our standard Finnish training set.
13:51:29 <fizzie> (It's also in English.)
13:53:09 <elliott> oerjan: I simplified it later!
13:53:15 <elliott> if you were looking at the first version.
13:53:23 <fizzie> I suppose possibly it's part of their terms and conditions that anything you speak to the search engine may by used agains... I mean, in research.
13:53:24 <oerjan> what's the simplification
13:54:07 <elliott> oerjan: considering only the case where you get a program, a tape length and a polarity, and have to make a program that beats it under those conditions
13:54:12 <elliott> i.e., not for all lengths and polarities
13:54:24 <elliott> which makes things _significantly_ simpler, yet I still cannot see an obvious way to construct such a program generically
13:54:30 <elliott> even though it seems obviously possible
13:55:33 <oerjan> well i think there may be essentially 2 cases (1) your opponent starts by doing something equivalent to (>)*N(-)*128 or (>)*N(+)*128 (2) your opponent wastes their time doing something else
13:56:07 <oerjan> in case (2), i think you can simply go to their flag immediately and clear it as fast as possible.
13:56:53 <oerjan> no defense they make can be effective, since they cannot detect what you do until you reach 0, by which time it's too late.
13:57:21 <elliott> deciding whether an opponent does something equivalent to (1) sounds a little tricky though :P
13:57:28 <elliott> well, I suppose that structure rules out control flow
13:57:38 <elliott> so you can check it independent of what your program does (= what effects on the tape you have)
13:57:46 <oerjan> i was assuming you knew your opponents code... am i misunderstanding?
13:58:04 <elliott> but the point is to construct an /algorithm/ which figures out an opponent
13:58:09 <oerjan> so just run what your opponent is doing if you do _nothing_
13:58:32 <elliott> the problem is countering (1) then.
13:58:37 <elliott> since by the time it gets to your flag, your decisions matter
13:58:42 <elliott> because it could be doing control flow after the *128
13:59:18 <elliott> I think it's funny that the resulting warrior will never use control flow
13:59:20 <oerjan> and offsetting your own flag will delay your clearing of the other end. hm.
14:01:12 <oerjan> it's not just (>)*N(-)*128, but (>)*N(-)*128 + something that doesn't change the flag the next step
14:01:49 <oerjan> otherwise you outrun them, i think
14:09:27 <hagb4rd> elliott: would that be a nethack-like-cell-based game? and if so.. are you making it from scratch? or are you just considering how you`d manage things if you make it so far
14:09:46 <elliott> it is a brainfuck-like cell-based game
14:09:49 <fungot> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust
14:11:51 <Jafet> There are only effectively a finite number of bfjoust programs for any size
14:12:01 <oerjan> in case (1), if you do a + or - before rushing, then you ensure the opponent won't win in those N+129 steps _and_ your flag isn't 0 afterwards. so he cannot win in less than N+131 steps. and even with that +, you still have 129 steps to clear his flag and wait another round.
14:12:03 <Jafet> So yes, it is possible
14:14:04 <elliott> oerjan: hmm. it can't be that easy, surely :P
14:14:11 <oerjan> elliott: i think it is
14:14:57 * elliott was hoping it would at least involve knowledge of the source code beyond "run it once vs. nop" :(
14:15:15 <elliott> now there's no insight for the real problem (i.e., given a program p compute ~p that beats it on all tape lengths and polarities)
14:15:41 <elliott> i say we outsource it to... hm.
14:16:29 <oerjan> there was no space between the O and K, i think you are misinterpreting
14:16:46 <oerjan> or possibly my syntax is slipping
14:17:42 <elliott> no no. i am sure there is no misinterpretation. have a lot of fun & report back with your findings!
14:17:48 <oerjan> at least we have proved than there can be no program that _always_ wins or ties at every tape and polarity.
14:19:54 <elliott> oerjan: on the downside, we don't want this technology to go too far, lest we invent an algorithm that takes *multiple* programs and beats them all.
14:20:00 <elliott> in which case the game would become quite boring.
14:20:16 <elliott> thankfully I have a hunch that that is impossible.
14:20:25 <elliott> (i.e., there are P and Q such that no R can beat both P and Q.)
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14:22:40 <Jafet> So, does P beat Q?
14:24:35 <fizzie> If P beats Q and Q beats R, why doesn't P always beat R? Why? Why? Why?!
14:25:00 <fizzie> Everything should be transitive.
14:25:11 <elliott> @tell ais523 second day in a row of french spam...
14:25:50 <Jafet> fizzie: http://phpsadness.com/static/pages/sad/52/order-full-noeq-tred.png
14:26:46 <fizzie> Jafet: Is that the order defined by PHP's relational operators?
14:27:16 <boily> fizzie: embrace the full universe in its whole flavour! let intrasivity imbibe your soul to its core essence!
14:28:20 <Jafet> (this means that sorted(sort($a)) may not always be true)
14:28:43 <fizzie> That's is_sorted, not sorted.
14:28:49 <fizzie> (I found http://phpsadness.com/sad/52 already.)
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16:38:30 <Taneb> Okay, it looks like I'm not cosplaying SatW!Finland
16:52:42 <Taneb> I couldn't acquire a hat
16:52:55 <Taneb> Unless a suspiciously floral Finland is acceptable
16:56:36 <kmc> Jafet: wow those graphs
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17:03:15 <Taneb> Hey, some people here know how to do social things, right?
17:04:59 <Gregor> GLARBLEFLOBB GLARBLEFLOBB WOO WOO WOOOOO
17:05:18 <Taneb> What is the right thing to do when you see two people, both of whom you like, really hating eachother?
17:06:16 -!- Lymia has joined.
17:10:09 <fizzie> Taneb: Reverse the polarity of one.
17:10:44 <kmc> depends on circumstances
17:10:49 <kmc> do you understand why they hate each other?
17:11:13 <Taneb> It's one of those hates that comes out of nothing and becomes everything
17:12:12 <kmc> how much have you talked to them about it?
17:12:31 <Taneb> Both of them are being kinda scary about it
17:12:41 <Taneb> One of them has bitched at me about the other
17:12:57 <kmc> is this a recent development? you might want to let them cool down a bit first
17:13:15 <kmc> like, plant the seed of "I really like both of you and I wish you could get along", then back off for a few weeks
17:13:49 <Taneb> And I'd really like it fixed before Saturday
17:16:18 <kmc> my girlfriend and her other boyfriend (who I was also close to) broke up a few months back
17:16:25 <kmc> and i wish they could even stand to be in the same room together
17:16:29 <kmc> but no luck so far :(
17:16:35 <kmc> don't know what to do about it
17:17:02 <fizzie> Taneb: If you make them both really really angry at you, maybe they'll realize they have something in common, namely hating you.
17:17:12 <Taneb> fizzie, I was thinking that
17:17:13 <fizzie> (Not such a practical solution.)
17:17:24 <Taneb> They have both hated me in the past, sort of
17:19:39 <fizzie> People have all kinds of non-binary relationships these days, I understand.
17:20:01 <kmc> (and not-these-days, but less talked about perhaps)
17:20:33 <fizzie> Triangles and squares and bipartite graphs and elder signs.
17:20:35 <kmc> and binary relationships that aren't sexually exclusive
17:20:50 <kmc> and emotional relationships that don't involve sex
17:20:52 <kmc> and lots of other things
17:20:57 <kmc> turns out people are complicated
17:21:14 <fizzie> ITYM overly complicated and could stand to be simplified a bit HTH HAND
17:21:33 <kmc> well I think poly is a simplification of sorts
17:21:49 <kmc> you remove drama that comes from following arbitrary rules and replace it with drama that arises from how people actually feel about each other
17:22:24 <kmc> "i think you mean"
17:22:59 * Lymia sets bozo bit on kmc
17:23:30 <fizzie> And HAND is the thing you GRAB with. (Apologies for being inconsiderate towards people with no HANDS.)
17:23:41 <Lymia> It turns out, condescension isn't a good way to earn friends~
17:23:56 <kmc> i'm being condescending?
17:24:03 <fizzie> I thought that was me.
17:24:10 <kmc> well i'm the one with this "bozo bit"
17:24:30 <kmc> I meant to direct my condescension at society in general (for pretending people aren't complicated) and not you specifically Lymia
17:24:38 <fizzie> There's probably a RFC about it.
17:25:01 <metasepia> bozo definition: a foolish or incompetent person.
17:25:08 <Lymia> bozo bits seem to be typically implemented with a list of regexes now.
17:26:14 * boily twiddles random frobs on kmc
17:26:51 <fizzie> You have to be careful when POKEing people, you never know which register you hit.
17:27:49 <boily> fizzie: that's the point. I'm hoping to see if kmc has any undocumented instructions.
17:28:05 * kmc WRMSRs boily
17:28:25 <boily> weapons of remote mass subtle reification?
17:28:35 <kmc> but also, write model-specific register
17:28:52 <fizzie> There's a frozen-yogurt place in Helsinki that has opened recently, it's kind of a new thing around here, there certainly weren't many (if any) a decade or two ago.
17:28:55 <kmc> which is where a lot of obscure creatures dwell
17:29:08 <kmc> I'm told that AMD has some MSRs that don't appear until you load magic values into ECX and EDX and whatever
17:29:28 <fizzie> There are some debugging features that need a "key" like that.
17:29:33 <boily> fizzie: we have «yeh!» here (the ! is part of the name). it's self-serve, and you pay by weight.
17:29:48 <kmc> those are kinda cool
17:29:56 <boily> kmc: that's obscure, nasty, and fascinating.
17:30:25 <fizzie> boily: This one is just like that, there's a couple of machines with different flavours for the "base" (plus each machine of two flavours has a third lever that can make a combination of the two), and then you add candy and nuts and whatnot by yourself, and weigh the end result.
17:31:16 <fizzie> boily: It's called JOGO. (People who name these places aren't always terribly imaginative.)
17:32:20 <kmc> in the US they are named Pinkberry and Red Mango and along these lines
17:32:21 <fizzie> Apparently JOGO is a Finnish franchise. Well, with one location maybe they can't really be called a franchise yet, but that's how they describe themselves.
17:32:34 <kmc> it could be structured as a franchise still
17:32:54 <kmc> meaning that one company licenses its IP and business model to another company which runs the store
17:33:29 <kmc> Pinkberry isn't self-serve though. I've seen a self-serve one in the US (in the mall in SF that has the curved escalators) but not many
17:34:06 <fizzie> "Joko" is a Finnish adverb meaning yet/already, so they can make punny advertisements, like "Jogo olet maistanut?", as in "Have you already tasted?" except with some spurious consonant gradation.
17:35:36 <boily> I guess you could make the same kind of pun in French: «Yeh-vez vous déjà goûté?»
17:35:45 <kmc> it's kind of crazy that Starbucks has grown the way they have without franchising
17:37:12 <fizzie> I always thought that "there's so many Starbucksen" thing was a kind of a joke, but then in Portland there were so many of them.
17:39:00 <fizzie> There's a single Starbucks in Finland, and that's at the Helsinki-Vantaa airport, and nobody goes to the airport except for reasons related to flights (the public transportation to there kind of sucks), so you only really get to experience the 'bucks here when coming/going somewhere.
17:39:27 <kmc> it is a joke, but it's funny because it's true
17:39:55 <kmc> hm how did i get to the airport
17:39:58 <fizzie> We also don't have a single Burger Kings; the closest is probably in Stockholm.
17:40:10 <fizzie> There's buses, but there's nothing going on tracks.
17:40:11 <Taneb> Hexham has no Starbucks
17:40:24 <kmc> i think the bus from the central railway station
17:40:44 <kmc> no combination pizza hut and taco bell?
17:40:55 <fizzie> kmc: Did you take the cheap regular-number-615-or-720-or-whatever bus, or the slightly more expensive direct Finnair bus?
17:40:59 <Taneb> Indeed, no combination Pizza Hut and Taco Bell
17:41:03 <kmc> I think the cheap one
17:41:19 <fizzie> It's the one that also has stops on the way.
17:41:51 <fizzie> They're building the "raindrop" railway line now that's going to connect two railway branches leaving Helsinki, and do it so that it goes under the airport, so in a few years one should be able to take a local train there.
17:42:04 <boily> we have a special bus/shuttle to get to the airport. it is route 747. (7xx buses are special routes, like the 777 for the casino)
17:42:17 <fizzie> Wait, no, it's not the "raindrop" one, it's the other, I forget what it's called.
17:42:58 <fizzie> "Raindrop" is the thing they're going to make for the local traffic in the Helsinki city centre, so that it no longer goes to the central railway station but instead into an underground loop with three other stops or so.
17:43:56 <fizzie> Also apparently it's called Helsinki City Rail Loop in English, it's just the Finnish name that's silly.
17:44:16 <kmc> boily: cute
17:44:17 <fizzie> (It allegedly resembles a raindrop in the map if you squint just right.)
17:44:30 <kmc> the JetBlue flight from Boston to Las Vegas is flight number 777
17:45:12 <kmc> Finland has its very own rail gauge right?
17:45:35 <kmc> that is 4 mm off from the Russian one
17:45:41 <kmc> which is considered "close enough"
17:46:09 <fizzie> Yes, I think that's right.
17:46:11 <kmc> train might make more noise on one side or the other
17:46:34 <fizzie> They have that new (i.e. not many years old) high-speed (FSVO) link to St. Petersburg now.
17:47:04 <kmc> that's cool
17:47:18 <kmc> 220 km/h max
17:47:22 <Taneb> Trivia: George Stephenson, railway pioneer, was from near Hexham
17:47:46 <boily> my favourite network is hong kong's mtr. still have my octopus card with me :D
17:47:51 <fizzie> Cuts two hours (from five and a half to three and a half) off the travel time.
17:48:04 <kmc> Taneb: on the very first run of his railway (the first public inter-city passenger line ever), a Member of Parliament was struck and killed
17:48:16 <kmc> it's kind of amazing that they didn't scrap the idea of railways entirely
17:48:23 <kmc> but it was actually pretty good publicity for them
17:50:24 <fizzie> Helsinki Region Transport has one- and two-digit numbers for within-muncipality bus lines, and three-digit numbers for those that cross borders, numbered approximately so that 1xx go east, 7xx go west, and the ones that go more north are numbered "clockwise". (The ones that go south drive into the sea.)
17:50:30 <kmc> also they were going to have a party on arriving in Manchester but they arrived to find that there was more of a riot already in progress
17:50:32 <fizzie> I don't think there's a line 777, though.
17:50:38 <kmc> so they turned around
17:51:08 <fizzie> There's a 776, but that's the highest-numbered 7xx line.
17:51:26 <kmc> amphibious bus!
17:51:36 <kmc> we have those in Boston, a little bit
17:51:53 <kmc> there's a tourist attraction where you ride around in a WW2-era amphibious vehicle
17:51:56 <kmc> on the street and then down the river
17:52:17 <boily> oh. I thought that you needed amphibious buses for when it rains really hard.
17:52:33 <boily> (we really should have some of those here. it gets dangerous sometimes.)
17:52:35 <Taneb> There was those in London for a bit, I hear
17:52:54 <fizzie> The ferry to Suomenlinna is part of HSL's traffic network, but I don't think it has a number. (It's also not amphibious, it's just a boat.)
17:53:14 <fizzie> Apparently it's number is "lautta" (Finnish for "ferry") in the timetable system. All lowercase and all.
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17:57:39 <Fiora> 10:05 < Taneb> What is the right thing to do when you see two people, both of whom you like, really hating eachother?
17:57:46 <Fiora> if you feel it's a problem maybe try auspisticizing?
17:58:31 <Fiora> (homestuck joke <.<)
17:58:41 <boily> ~duck auspisticizing
17:59:05 <shachaf> Fiora..............................
18:00:18 <metasepia> The Fiora is a river in northern Lazio and southern Tuscany, which springs from the southern flank of the Monte Amiata, near Santa Fiora.
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18:00:52 <Fiora> what does ~duck do o_O
18:01:15 <Fiora> and awwww. my program fell like 6spots on the list
18:01:20 <Gregor> If you're not careful, it'll ~goose you.
18:01:36 <shachaf> You're playing bfjoust now?
18:02:27 <boily> Fiora: ~duck is arguably the less useless command from my bot.
18:02:34 <Fiora> ohhh. search engine
18:02:40 <boily> (that and ~metar. I can't decide which one.)
18:02:41 <Fiora> shachaf: I kind of um. lost 4 hours last night playing
18:03:10 <Fiora> it's really addictive >_<
18:05:26 <shachaf> You mean you gained 4 hours of playing it last night.
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18:10:33 <boily> not loss, not gain; the joust is moving.
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18:18:26 <metasepia> CYUL 211800Z 22015G21KT 15SM FEW020 BKN032 BKN090 00/M07 A2965 RMK SC1SC5AC1 SLP043
18:19:18 <kmc> ~metar KBOS
18:19:18 <metasepia> KBOS 211754Z 00000KT 10SM FEW030 BKN047 OVC060 01/M06 A2969 RMK AO2 SNB06E41 SLP055 P0000 60000 T00061056 10011 21006 58025
18:19:52 <metasepia> EBAW 211750Z 10004KT 9999 FEW042 02/M03 Q1019 NOSIG
18:22:39 <metasepia> EFHK 211750Z 34004KT 9999 FEW043 M07/M18 Q1027 NOSIG
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18:23:38 <boily> mwah ah ah! at last somewhere chillier than here!
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18:24:42 <Lymia> I wonder how different BfJoust would be with one additional instruction
18:24:46 <fizzie> Foreca predicts that Espoo's nightly low for the Thu-Fri night is -18°C.
18:24:47 <Lymia> Namely, [] except with an inverted condition
18:25:35 <fizzie> boily: At least it's not supernovaing.
18:27:01 <boily> fizzie: the supernova had to take its mandatory break, then it's going to resume operations tonight.
18:29:49 <Fiora> um, I think because I was playing it last night
18:29:56 <coppro> it's more interesting than bfchess
18:29:57 <Fiora> among other things my program beats omnipotence every time. yay!
18:30:19 <Taneb> And that got me thinking about it, and mentioned it around lunchtime?
18:31:36 <Fiora> lymia was too, doing this super cool program evolving thing
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18:33:20 <fizzie> Regarding the ([)*3(])*4 thing, it seems that I simply have managed to get gearlance and cranklance parsers out of sync: http://sprunge.us/MEeZ -- I'll refactor it out into a separate file, that'll sort it out.
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18:33:28 <Fiora> if the <> are the inverted ones you mentioned, is A<B>C is equivalent to A([C]B)*-1?
18:36:49 <Lymia> I guess %-1 can do it
18:37:46 <Fiora> that's what %-1 does?
18:37:47 <Lymia> [if]else, inverted: ([else{}]if-not)%-1
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18:38:08 <Lymia> Uuu,,, not quite...
18:38:30 <Lymia> [if]else, inverted: ([else]if-not)*-1
18:38:38 <Lymia> I think that emulates an if-not loop.
18:39:12 <Taneb> My BF Joust program seems to be super effective against Deewiant
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18:39:45 <Fiora> and now I'm looking at the matchup chart and mentally imagining the sides as pokemon types <_>
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18:44:30 <boily> Fiora: how do you achieve a <_> face?
18:47:39 <Fiora> it's kind of like >_< except viewed from a different coordinate system
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19:15:35 <Lymia> !bfjoust walpurgus >-[+[(>)*5[>------]>>--((-)*16.)*-1]-](>)*5[>++++++]>>++((+)*16.)*-1
19:15:39 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_walpurgus: 2.4
19:15:40 <Lymia> targeted bot killing yay
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19:21:52 <boily> quintopia: you hello-killed Lymia!
19:30:08 <boily> btw, for purely statistical purposes and the greater good of humanity, what are your approximate coordinates and body weigh?
19:40:57 <fizzie> You should make up one of those Google Maps powered things where you can put your own pin on the map, to collect this data?
19:41:35 <fizzie> Actually, come to think of it, was there an #esoteric map like that already?
19:43:19 <olsner> hmm, there might have been yes
19:43:34 <nooodl> heuristically you could just say everyone lives in hexham, it'd be pretty accurate
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19:48:11 <boily> according to my list, I'm the fattest esolanger.
19:48:37 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:48:41 <lambdabot> elliott said 5h 25m 2s ago: sorry.
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19:51:55 <oerjan> elliott: ok i think i've found the relevant time period in the logs, and i still have no idea why you are saying sorry.
19:52:53 <oerjan> (2 minutes after i quit last time, iicc)
19:53:23 <Fiora> boily: you could calculate the average BMI of an esolanger
19:54:53 <oerjan> @tell elliott Did I miss a private message from you? I have no idea why you said "sorry."
19:54:56 <boily> ~eval (150 / 2.2) / ((70 * 2.54) ** 2)
19:55:11 <boily> ~eval (150 / 2.2) / ((70 * 2.54 / 100) ** 2)
19:55:21 <boily> Fiora: I'm at 21.6.
19:55:23 <Fiora> (I guess you'd need heights for that)
19:55:48 <boily> olsner, oerjan: I still need your own coordinates :D
19:56:04 <boily> (I already put Trondheim for oerjan, as an educated guess.)
19:56:28 <boily> oerjan: yes, I converted from lbs to kg, and from inches to meters.
19:57:00 <olsner> seems my router is broken again ... it refuses to create new connections, but this already-established irc connection is apparently fine
19:57:04 <oerjan> what units are 150 and 70 in
19:57:15 <boily> 150 lbs, and I'm 5'10" tall.
19:57:21 <fizzie> 70 * 2.54 sounds like inches.
19:58:07 <oerjan> um that doesn't seem right
19:58:27 <fizzie> oerjan: 180 kilograms and 82 centimetres?
19:58:28 <olsner> boily: I thought you were french, why do you know your height and weight in inches and pounds?
19:58:55 <fizzie> oerjan: You weigh 0.82 kg?
19:59:04 <oerjan> fizzie: that 100 is confusing me
19:59:06 <boily> olsner: I'm from Québec. body weights are in pounds, heights in feet, pool temperatures in fahrenheit.
19:59:19 <fizzie> oerjan: The / 100 was to convert from cm to m.
19:59:24 <Fiora> I think the formula is (kg / m^2)
19:59:31 <fizzie> oerjan: (After the 2.54 cm/in multiplication.)
20:00:01 <oerjan> i might have lost even more weight
20:00:02 <olsner> hmm, is quebec that place that we agreed actually exists or some hypothetical part of "canada"?
20:00:15 * Fiora 's is about 18.3 too
20:00:18 <nooodl> i hear bmi is stupid about age though
20:00:23 <boily> olsner: I think you stopped at ottawa. nothing was existentially decided after that.
20:00:24 <fizzie> I think I pretty much match oerjan's measurements. Though I haven't weighted myself in the last five years, so it's probably anywhere in the [70, 90] range.
20:00:50 <boily> fizzie: I'll put 80kg for you, if that's okay.
20:01:05 <fizzie> boily: It's the right order of magnitude.
20:01:29 <fizzie> The battery has run out in our scale, and anyway it'd be in a different room.
20:01:42 <olsner> I've thought my weight was about 80kg for the last 10 years or so, it's not too bad (iirc) but I think it's also completely wrong
20:01:44 <fizzie> It's one of those electro-nicks ones.
20:04:10 <oerjan> hm there's an electro on freenode
20:04:23 <oerjan> he has great opportunity for a cheesy pun
20:04:46 <fizzie> > 67/1.81^2 -- I was this ten years ago, but then again I wasn't really all that interested in eating anything back then.
20:09:39 <Gregor> <boily> 150 lbs, and I'm 5'10" tall. // you lose the fatness war, I'm fatter than you, nurr nurr nurr
20:09:53 <oerjan> <fizzie> We also don't have a single Burger Kings; the closest is probably in Stockholm. <-- huh trondheim alone has several
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20:12:51 <Fiora> I don't know, it's this weird measurement some people use
20:12:55 <Fiora> I think it's related to a sto--
20:13:02 <Fiora> <.< thinking exactly the same thing
20:13:12 <Gregor> So it's kinda like quite a few stones.
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20:13:51 <shachaf> is burger king the same thing as burgeranch
20:14:01 <shachaf> apparently it is nowadays but wasn't at the time
20:14:07 <Fiora> wow, the average BMI in america is 27 now
20:15:30 <Gregor> I'm at 28! Woooh, beatin' the average!
20:17:33 <kmc> BMI is pretty bullshit anyway
20:17:39 <kmc> we are a country of lardasses
20:17:50 * kmc is trying to lose weight
20:18:01 <kmc> yesterday I tried to run a mile and only made it 0.46 miles but my time was pretty good I think?
20:18:04 <oerjan> <fizzie> Actually, come to think of it, was there an #esoteric map like that already? <-- there used to be, yes
20:18:20 <olsner> fizzie: wat, no burger king anywhere in finland?
20:18:25 <Bike> What was your time?
20:18:45 <Phantom_Hoover> but by my calculations i'm basically set to win all the marathons
20:18:49 <Fiora> I think 100-150m is about where my asthma kicks in and tells me to go back to the computer
20:19:03 <kmc> Bike: 3m 44s
20:19:26 <Bike> ...wow for a second i thought it was 0.46 out of of .60 and was ._.
20:19:35 <kmc> obv. i couldn't do another 0.46 miles at the same time right after
20:19:50 <Bike> yeah, it's probably better to pace yourself too
20:19:51 <fizzie> olsner: None. AFAIK, they've said (to reporters) that there's too much competition (and probably too small markets), what with two reasonably entrenched burger chains already.
20:20:05 <Bike> i've been trying to be able to do a nine minute mile without being exhausted afterwards. progress is slow
20:20:28 <kmc> yeah i was pretty beat right after
20:20:34 <olsner> fizzie: oh, what's the other entrenched burger chain?
20:20:47 <Fiora> kmc: I am still kind of shocked looking at the distribution and being like "what I have lower bmi than 95% -- how is that even possible"
20:20:51 <fizzie> "I've run the Cooper test in 12 minutes." </oldjoke>
20:21:01 <Bike> i can do it and lift weights and stuff after, but it's the most exhausting part of the workout.
20:21:21 * Phantom_Hoover fucks around on google maps for a bit, realises a mile is far shorter than he'd thought
20:21:27 <fizzie> olsner: The (mostly; they have some places abroad) national one, Hesburger. (The other being McD.)
20:21:41 <olsner> hmm, hesburger? never heard of it
20:21:51 <fizzie> Well, it is pretty Finnish.
20:22:00 <fizzie> There's at least one in Tallinn.
20:22:12 <fizzie> And I think maybe some in Latvia/Lithuania.
20:22:42 <fizzie> And one was somewhere in middle east for some reason, I think.
20:24:08 <fizzie> There are probably more Hesburgers in Finland than McD's; a majority of big shoppint centres has one. (Whereas McD's are all "standalone" locations, not integrated with anything else. I understand it's some kind of a policy they have here.)
20:24:45 <olsner> there was a hesburger in syria between 2004-2006, apparently
20:25:20 <Phantom_Hoover> nothing works up a craving for finnish burgers than a civil war
20:25:27 <fizzie> olsner: I think that's what I was thinking of.
20:25:48 <fizzie> But they still have some in as far as Germany, if Wikipedia is to be believed.
20:25:50 <olsner> "Hesburger also have pasta restaurants (which offer a pasta menu in addition to the normal one), [...] and restaurants which also offer carwash services to their customers."
20:26:14 <fizzie> There's very few of HesePasta's around.
20:26:24 <fizzie> They also have a HeseKebab now.
20:27:04 <fizzie> Also, it used to be so that the two burger places were McD (the leader) and Carrols (the competitor), but Hesburger ate up Carrols a while ago.
20:27:06 <olsner> how much do they charge for a kebab?
20:27:38 <fizzie> I haven't been in the HeseKebab, there's just one I've seen from the bus window.
20:27:54 <fizzie> HesePasta comes in this cardboard box.
20:28:19 <olsner> judging by this picture on the web, the kebab also comes in a cardboard box ... with no sauce?
20:28:23 <fizzie> There's a HesePasta in Hartwall Areena, so I've visited it once every Assembly the last few years.
20:28:44 <fizzie> "Did you mean: cheese kebab" well not quite.
20:28:58 <fizzie> http://www.hesekebab.fi/files/images/hesekebab_aloituskuva2.jpg there's some kind of sauce there.
20:29:47 <fizzie> Seems they have only one in Helsinki, but a large number in the Turku corner of Finland. Curious.
20:29:55 <fizzie> Perhaps they started by testing the concept there.
20:29:59 <olsner> http://www.hesekebab.fi/tuotteet/kebablautanen was the one on the front page
20:30:33 <olsner> (is that sugar listed as some sort of allergy information?)
20:32:14 <fizzie> Anyway, what you have there is the "Kebablautanen", i.e. "kebab plate". What I linked to was the plain "Kebab".
20:32:24 <fizzie> It does seem kind of dry.
20:32:32 <olsner> more like kebabcardboardbox
20:32:35 <fizzie> There's no sauce listed in the ingredients list either.
20:32:46 <fizzie> Oh, that's just because it's a different product.
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20:33:00 <fizzie> It says you can choose a mayonnaise or a sauce from their usual list of ones, in the text.
20:33:06 <olsner> maybe it's to make it officially healthier by making the sauce "optional"
20:33:13 <Fiora> an allergy to sugar.
20:33:21 <fizzie> Fiora: That would suck.
20:33:37 <Fiora> (that sounds like the most oversimplified description of diabetes ever?)
20:34:37 <olsner> the old name for diabetes here is sugar sickness
20:34:47 <fizzie> Anyhow, there's 270 Hesburger restaurants in Finland, but only 83 McD's.
20:35:25 <fizzie> Also a local business magazine article from the 2008 said that McD has been unprofitable (with a couple of exceptions) in Finland for almost its whole existence here.
20:35:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, also you're just courting the people who get pedantic about the use of the word allergy
20:35:52 <olsner> I wonder if they've checked for horse meat yet ... they're only one letter away from Hestburger
20:36:25 <fizzie> olsner: I think they had a note about how they are very careful about their meat in the Hesburger in our local shopping mall.
20:37:16 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: people with an allergy to the word allergy?
20:37:24 <fizzie> olsner: Also, there *were* two Burger Kings in finland, back in the early 1980s; but they quit in 1984 and 1985, respectively; and the planned third one turned into a McD instead.
20:37:51 <fizzie> olsner: And they announced a comeback to Finland in September 2010, but then canceled it.
20:38:56 <fizzie> Because they "don't see enough opportunities" here.
20:39:32 <olsner> they must be doing it wrong, people always want more junk food
20:40:13 <fizzie> It's kind of annoying, because they have that cheeseless-by-default Whopper; we've visited some BK's on holiday trips, and it's a novelty to be able to order something in a burger place without having to customize. (My wife doesn't do cheese.)
20:40:27 <fizzie> But maybe it wouldn't feel that special if we had a BK in Finland.
20:42:21 <fizzie> We're kind of lacking in these franchisey places. Though we've got a reasonable number of Subways these days.
20:42:39 <fizzie> Almost all the Pizza Huts have closed, though, there's just a few left.
20:42:56 <olsner> pizza huts are few and far apart here in sweden
20:43:39 <fizzie> They have 7 locations left, of which 6 are in Helsinki and one is in Tampere; and of those six some are not "full" restaurants.
20:44:13 <olsner> we recently got a pizza hut "near" my town, but they placed it so far out in the middle of nowhere that I will most likely never visit it
20:45:30 <fizzie> There's 105 Subways in Finland, apparently. That's more than there are McD's.
20:45:57 <fizzie> Then again, Subways don't seem to have any sort of problems being integrated into shopping malls here.
20:47:06 <fizzie> Oh, and we don't have a single KFC, as far as I know.
20:47:51 <fizzie> There's a clone called "Southern Fried Chicken" in a prominent location in the city centre, though. I think that's a UK chain?
20:48:24 <fizzie> (At least I've always assumed it's a clone, I've never been in there.)
20:49:26 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Fried_Chicken_(franchise) is the best article. "In the 1970s Withers travelled to America -- Withers made a visit to Greenville, South Carolina, where he learned about fried chicken."
20:49:46 <fizzie> He LEARNED about FRIED CHICKEN there. I'm sure it was a MINDBLOWING experience.
20:49:49 <olsner> we probably don't have a KFC either, the fried chicken thing is fairly alien to us as well
20:50:03 <fizzie> (Also the picture in the article is from Helsinki.)
20:50:19 <fizzie> Well, but, I mean, what's there to learn? It's chicken, and it's fried.
20:51:15 <fizzie> There's KFC's in Europe, I know that much. There was one in... Prague? Or maybe it was Florence.
20:52:02 <olsner> you can't just fry some chicken, you have to serve it somehow, and teach people how to eat it, and so on
20:52:20 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KFC_world_map1.png Finland/Sweden/Norway indeed seem to be (one of) the odd ones left out.
20:53:11 <olsner> no kfc in north korea either
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20:54:48 <fizzie> "List of countries with KFC franchises -- Currently abandoned markets -- Sweden -- Present in the 1980s, but since closed."
20:54:53 <fizzie> You've at least had some.
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20:57:11 <fizzie> Taco Bell is another thing we don't have. As is Wendy's. (I don't know how widespread those two are.)
20:57:32 <olsner> we have something called "taco bar"
20:57:41 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wendy%27s_world_locations.svg seems they've kind of pulled out from Europe.
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20:58:02 <fizzie> (Who keeps making all these maps about fast food chain global penetration?)
20:59:18 <fizzie> I don't think there's a chain-style "Mexican" place in Finland.
20:59:27 <shachaf> zzo38: Any exciting insights?
21:00:22 <olsner> rumor has it that actual mexican food is almost completely different from that kind of "mexican" food
21:00:33 <Lumpio-> We have plenty of "tex-mex" though
21:00:46 <Lumpio-> Which is probably nothing like what they would eat in either Texas or Mexico.
21:00:50 <zzo38> shachaf: Let me to think of it; I forgot temporarily.
21:01:08 <fizzie> Lumpio-: There's plenty of it, but I can't think of a chain of it, at least immediately.
21:01:26 <Lumpio-> I can only think of Amarillo which claims to be sort of a tex-mex kinda place at times
21:01:43 <fizzie> Okay, that might count.
21:01:59 <fizzie> There's not all that many of them, though? Like, less than a dozen?
21:02:45 <fizzie> Gregor: Oh, I fixed a parser issue that was in gearlance that I had already fixed in chainlance; you might want to consider updating. (Shouldn't affect any valid programs, but some invalid ones were being accepted and did... something I can't be bothered to find out.)
21:03:08 <fizzie> Oh my, there is in fact quite a few.
21:03:24 <fizzie> Two dozen. Well, how about that.
21:05:09 <fizzie> I guess Chico's also has a bit of the "tex-mex" stuff, though it's more branding itself as generally American.
21:05:19 <Sgeo> fizzie, how dare you invalidate previously accepted programs! Do you know how much time and effort was spent that you invalidated and needs to be repaired?!?!?
21:05:32 <Sgeo> (What's gearlance/chainlance?)
21:05:38 <fizzie> Sgeo: None of the current hill changed, FWIW. :p
21:05:48 <fizzie> Sgeo: The implementation !bfjoust runs on.
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21:06:18 * Sgeo was thinking of that PHP change that someone was complaining about
21:06:26 <fizzie> Where I said "chainlance" I meant "cranklance".
21:06:29 -!- augur has joined.
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21:09:51 <fizzie> It went approximately so that I first wrote chainlance, which compiled to... something, I forget what exactly; then based on that wrote cranklance, which is a "compile to threaded-ish code, dispatch with GCC computed goto" kind of an implementation, which does the statistics; and then based on that I made a trimmed-down version (dropped out the statistics collection, basically) called ...
21:09:57 <fizzie> ... gearlance which Gregor put in the bot, I think because it was a bit speedier than egojoust.
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21:11:47 <fizzie> The etymology of the nomenclature is something like that lances are a thing which are used for jousting, and chainlance is kind of like chainsaw in that it's really fast (it isn't all that fast), and cranklance is like a hand-cranked version of it in that it's slower but you can see what happens (it isn't all that slower), and gearlance is [something something faster than cranklance something ...
21:12:03 <fizzie> I guess there are, like, gears and stuff?
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21:24:29 <Taneb> Haskell has just became slightly more ridiculous for me
21:25:18 <Taneb> (I've unlocked the power of newtype Mu a = Mu {getMu :: Mu a -> a}
21:25:53 <Taneb> fix = \f -> f (\x -> getMu x x) (Mu $ \x -> getMu x x)
21:27:12 <kmc> does that relate at all to the other thing data Fix f = In (f (Fix f))
21:27:14 <Bike> obv. not a good system if it can prove santa claus to exist
21:27:17 <kmc> also sometimes called Mu
21:27:25 <kmc> Taneb: oleg has an article on interesting ways to write fix in haskell
21:27:46 <Taneb> I don't believe Oleg exists
21:28:26 <kmc> people say that Oleg is working on a weather predicting computer for the navy
21:28:33 <kmc> but maybe... he is a weather predicting computer
21:29:25 <lambdabot> newtype Mu f = In { out :: f (Mu f) }
21:29:40 <shachaf> data Mu f = Mu (forall a. (f a -> a) -> a)
21:29:40 <shachaf> data Nu f = forall a. Nu a (a -> f a)
21:29:41 <shachaf> data Fix f = Fix (f (Fix f))
21:29:47 <shachaf> I think that Mu is the real Mu.
21:29:55 <shachaf> But it's equivalent to Fix in Haskell?
21:29:57 <Sgeo> Oleg reorganized his site
21:29:59 <lambdabot> newtype Rec a = InR { outR :: Rec a -> a }
21:30:08 <Bike> there's a lot of ways to do this huh
21:30:29 <shachaf> kmc: Not much of a relation between Rec and Fix, I think.
21:31:12 <shachaf> @ty let k = In (go 0) where go n = print n >> return (In (go (n+1))) in k
21:31:29 <Taneb> :t \f -> f (\x -> outR x x) (InR $ \x -> f (outR x x)
21:31:30 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
21:31:31 <Taneb> :t \f -> f (\x -> outR x x) (InR $ \x -> f (outR x x))
21:31:32 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = Rec a0 -> a0
21:31:52 <Taneb> :t \f -> (\x -> f $ outR x x) (InR $ \x -> f (outR x x))
21:31:58 <Taneb> :t \f -> (\x -> f $ outR x x) (InR $ \x -> f $ outR x x)
21:32:06 <zzo38> What is it called if you make the product of all the exponents of a polynomial (reduced to terms with the coefficient always being 1)?
21:32:45 <Bike> What's the point of that?
21:40:47 <zzo38> Is there a way to parse the text of Magic: the Gathering cards by computer to make it into a computer program with the same meaning?
21:42:23 <zzo38> Probably it won't work with the Alpha cards anyways; I don't know how well it would work with the new cards, though.
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21:50:08 <atriq> :t ap id InR <$> fmap `flip` join outR
21:51:44 <atriq> fixed point combinator without explicit recursion or brackets
21:52:55 <shachaf> @ty id <*> InR <$> fmap `flip` join outR
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21:56:38 <oerjan> :t fmap `flip` join outR
21:57:25 <atriq> :t \f -> f . join outR
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22:01:39 <lambdabot> `int' (imported from Text.PrettyPrint.HughesPJ),
22:15:24 <Sgeo> Erm, isn't ap more generic than that?
22:15:27 <lambdabot> Monad m => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b
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22:25:07 <fungot> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
22:26:04 <lambdabot> Data.Ix inRange :: Ix a => (a, a) -> a -> Bool
22:26:04 <lambdabot> Text.ParserCombinators.ReadP chainr :: ReadP a -> ReadP (a -> a -> a) -> a -> ReadP a
22:26:04 <lambdabot> Text.ParserCombinators.ReadP chainr1 :: ReadP a -> ReadP (a -> a -> a) -> ReadP a
22:26:56 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `outR' (line 144)
22:26:59 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `outR' (line 144)
22:27:11 <lambdabot> The operator `L.outR' [infixl 9] of a section
22:27:27 <oerjan> seems to be directly in lambdabot's L module
22:33:08 <oerjan> :t join outR . InR . join outR
22:33:25 <oerjan> :t join outR . InR $ join outR
22:34:43 <lambdabot> (\ c -> (outR >>= \ d -> d) ((InR) c))
22:35:43 <oerjan> :t \x -> outR (InR x) (InR x)
22:36:45 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `OutR'
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22:42:07 <HackEgo> kyyni: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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22:51:06 <HackEgo> kyyni: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:52:06 -!- oerjan has set topic: The harmonic mean welcoming channel on Freenode. You have been warned. | <Taneb> #esoteric is supposed to be about esoteric programming languages, but is really a couple of dozen people being weird | Newsflash: fungot has been writing spam for money. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:55:08 <kyyni> that's the state of affairs
22:56:46 <fizzie> If arithmetic mean is (a1+a2+...+an)/n and geometric mean is (a1*a2*...*an)^(1/n), can you go one step further still, and get some kind of f(a1^a2^...^an) mean? (I guess that's a bit unlikely, what with ^ not being commutative or anything...)
22:57:47 <Sgeo> LoseThos is now known as TempleOS
22:57:53 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1aqdxn/temple_operating_system_v100_released/
22:59:36 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: well you could select a subset such that ^ would be commutative
23:00:06 <Arc_Koen> hmmm it still wouldn't be associative
23:00:32 <fizzie> The trimean is the average of the median and the midhinge.
23:00:38 <Arc_Koen> that's a shame because defining means on sets like {x} is pretty easy
23:00:41 <Bike> i think there's a generalized mean
23:00:47 <zzo38> I have also read of "ZungJung" average
23:00:56 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, well you need some concept of right-inverse tetration
23:01:24 <fizzie> (Midhinge is the average of the first and third quartile.)
23:02:01 <fizzie> There seem to be several generalized means.
23:02:49 -!- variable has changed nick to function.
23:03:01 <zzo38> Another thing I want to know is, anyone who is artist are you able to make the METAFONT files for the mana and tap symbols of Magic: the Gathering cards?
23:03:42 <zzo38> No. Not very good.
23:03:52 <zzo38> I mean someone who know how to make this specifically.
23:04:03 <fizzie> A constructive artist, also called a con artist.
23:06:08 -!- jiella has joined.
23:06:28 <Sgeo> I think reading that thread makes me feel more empathy
23:06:41 <Sgeo> Can schizophrenia cause racism in people who wouldn't otherwise be racist?
23:07:30 <Bike> mental disorders aren't quite like that.
23:08:05 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
23:24:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, it would be nice if people would dissociate his shitty os design from the fact that he's scary mad, though
23:34:49 * Sgeo wonders if he should play a tale in the desert
23:34:58 <Sgeo> Tried it once, it seemed boring, but I didn't get very far
23:36:01 <Phantom_Hoover> it will enrich your life and make you physiologically potent
23:40:37 <Sgeo> Why are you not watching PMMM?
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23:43:22 <Sgeo> It will only cost you 6 hours to watch the whole thing
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23:46:31 <Fiora> you will long have memories of a wonderful, heart-touching experience that will forever shape your psyche?
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23:50:02 * Lymia sits on Fiora's lap ^_^
23:50:45 <Lymia> You need stupider people for that.
23:50:46 <Fiora> eeep that's not a very big lap
23:50:49 <Lymia> Or sillier people.
23:50:57 <Lymia> Sillier works better.
23:51:05 <Fiora> it works better for small things like plushies and cats not people
23:51:20 <Bike> phantom-kun, control rod denwa
23:51:51 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_bike: 0.0
23:53:36 * Fiora tries to squirm out and offers Lymia a spot on the couch
23:54:14 <Bike> why is it always a couch
23:54:19 <Bike> why not, say, a trampoline
23:54:33 <Fiora> trampolines aren't very comfy
23:54:38 <Fiora> they don't have like, comfy pillows and things
23:54:46 <Bike> but you can bounce
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23:57:14 <Fiora> This is a nice color, really.
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23:57:46 <Bike> uh phantom don't you need to be corporeal for that
23:57:59 <Phantom_Hoover> i'll attach fins to a knife or something and put it into the suborbital brick delivery system
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23:58:15 <Lymia> Just drop giant chunks of rock.
23:58:18 <Bike> that sounds pretty hard to aim.
00:07:06 <Fiora> PH, you're not going to stab me!
00:07:32 <Fiora> http://i.imgur.com/PCfvIcv.jpg I have her to protect me
00:09:30 <Phantom_Hoover> also, cushions are notoriously vulnerable to overpenetration
00:09:43 <zzo38> You might be able to make your IRC client to not display the colors, if you want
00:09:54 * Fiora will go back to normal now
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00:27:22 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/large-asbestoscontaminated-tarantula-on-the-loose-in-cardiff-8544532.html
00:29:59 <oerjan> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/large-asbestoscontaminated-tarantula-on-the-loose-in-cardiff-8544532.html <Phantom_Hoover> finally, a solution to the problem of wales
00:30:03 <HackEgo> 987) <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/large-asbestoscontaminated-tarantula-on-the-loose-in-cardiff-8544532.html <Phantom_Hoover> finally, a solution to the problem of wales
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01:29:44 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: fuck
01:30:11 <Phantom_Hoover> it's what we all feared, a spider that cannot be burned
01:31:18 <kmc> no recourse to "kill it with fire"
01:31:33 <oerjan> it's ok just use water instead
01:31:34 <Bike> ooh ooh what did i miss
01:32:07 <HackEgo> 987) <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/large-asbestoscontaminated-tarantula-on-the-loose-in-cardiff-8544532.html <Phantom_Hoover> finally, a solution to the problem of wales
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04:51:37 <Sgeo> If it weren't for lack of 3d gaming, I would use this http://qubes-os.org/trac/wiki/QubesScreenshots
05:01:03 <kmc> seems like good defense in depth, although not perfect
05:01:17 <kmc> VM breakout exploits are not super rare
05:01:24 <kmc> especially if you are letting random devices through
05:02:29 <Sgeo> Since it uses Xen, I wonder if it would be difficult to configure VGA passthru for this
05:04:06 <kmc> does Xen not support it? they mention VT-d on that page I thought
05:04:21 <kmc> anyway their isolation UI depends on not giving any VM unrestricted access to the video hw
05:04:40 <kmc> if you do that, breakouts become a lot easier
05:04:47 <Sgeo> Xen supports passthru, Qubes doesn't
05:04:48 <kmc> because video cards and drivers are enormously complicated
05:04:49 <Sgeo> Hmm, good point
05:04:59 <kmc> this is why I'm scared of WebGL
05:05:12 <zzo38> I like that kind of idea, having the different program in different VM
05:05:22 <Sgeo> I want to play my 3d games :(
05:05:29 <Sgeo> It's my entire reason for even caring about Windows
05:05:30 <kmc> i wish our operating systems just fucking worked and then we wouldn't need to slap another layer on
05:05:42 <kmc> Sgeo: you could dual boot
05:05:49 <kmc> and use an encrypted Linux disk so that Windows malware can't mess with it
05:05:52 <kmc> if you are really worried
05:05:57 <kmc> it could still do more devious things though
05:06:18 <zzo38> Use hardware security features which have switches to lock access to drives
05:06:29 <kmc> the other problem with passthrough is, your game could pretend to exit but actually display a full screen simulation of the trusted qubes interface
05:06:36 <Sgeo> I want to play my 3d Windows games while on IRC and doing Linuxy stuff
05:06:38 <kmc> zzo38: heh. or unplug the damn thing :)
05:06:43 <kmc> Sgeo: or you could buy an xbox
05:07:04 <Sgeo> I don't think XBoxes support Active Worlds and Second Life and Docking Station
05:07:09 <kmc> makes life a lot easier to have the magical game box which is always up to spec and doesn't need constant care and feeding
05:07:10 <Sgeo> Although Docking Station isn't 3d
05:07:15 <kmc> if the games you need aren't supported
05:07:17 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, you can unplug it, you can have separate drives
05:08:03 <kmc> Windows malware could still reflash your BIOS or your network card's PCI option ROM to take control
05:08:15 <zzo38> If the game pretends to exit and does that, well, that is another reason to use hardware security support; have LEDs and switches and that stuff to control the security features, which is much more security.
05:08:28 <kmc> or simulate a reboot but actually boot the entire trusted environment inside nested virtualization which it controls
05:08:34 <zzo38> Using this hardware stuff can even prevent Windows malware from reflashing the BIOS and that stuff!
05:08:38 <Sgeo> kmc, I could rely on security through obscurity to some extent, it's unlikely that there's any malware that would take a lucky guess that I'm running a modified Qubes OS
05:08:50 <Sgeo> And guess as to what domains I have, etc.
05:08:54 <kmc> it's fantastically unlikely that anyone will mount such an attack
05:09:05 <zzo38> That is why, security by hardware.
05:09:10 <kmc> another problem with the encrypted linux drive is that you typically have an unencrypted boot partition
05:09:16 <kmc> but you can put that on removable media easily enough
05:10:03 <kmc> i do that with my servers
05:10:13 <Sgeo> The big problem with modifying Qubes OS is... I don't know much about Xen, and trying to reconfigure preconfigured Xen will be even more difficult probably
05:10:56 <kmc> what do you want to modify?
05:11:24 <zzo38> The complicated and stupid design of computer really causes security problems as well as various other problems too. Even with USB, it can be a problem. (I have suggested a patch to Linux to fix this hole; only on this channel, though, not on Linux.)
05:12:32 <Sgeo> kmc, allowing and actually performing VGA passthru
05:14:09 <Sgeo> I could just run raw Xen I assume?
05:15:26 <zzo38> The patch I suggested was this: If there is PS/2 keyboard, do not accept USB keyboard by default (although it can still be configured to allow in specific cases, possibly one of the SysRq commands); if there is no PS/2 keyboard, use the USB keyboard available at boot time instead of others (again, can be reconfigured by the user).
05:15:31 <Sgeo> I should probably choose a card that Xen supports
05:16:00 <zzo38> But this is really a problem with USB, not with Linux; however, it is possible to fix it by software in these ways, nevertheless.
05:16:12 <Sgeo> zzo38, a guy showed me this USB stick he had that pretends to be a keyboard and does stuff. Your suggestions would presumably prevent that
05:16:39 <kmc> did you see http://www.demyo.com/products/demyo-power-strip/
05:16:40 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, I read that too; however, my thoughts about this were before those things existed.
05:17:06 <kmc> one thing I read about PS/2 keyboards is that they leak a lot of data onto the power supply line and the building power wiring
05:17:10 <kmc> for whatever reason
05:17:34 <zzo38> The new computer I make it will be: security by simplicity.
05:17:39 <zzo38> kmc: What if there is a UPS?
05:17:51 <kmc> probably not then?
05:18:55 <Sgeo> Do ATI graphics work better with Linux than they used to?
05:19:57 <kmc> dunno, i have been using nvidia and intel since forever
05:23:54 <Sgeo> http://wiki.xen.org/wiki/XenVGAPassthroughTestedAdapters
05:24:01 <Sgeo> This does seem to suggest that ATI works better
05:24:33 <kmc> i think if i really cared about security i would just buy a second computer
05:24:36 <kmc> and use it for secure shit
05:24:43 <kmc> or use my old laptop that already exists
05:25:22 <kmc> virtualization is cool and all but it's still this huge pile of complexity
05:25:24 <Sgeo> It's not just security though
05:25:51 <Sgeo> It's also using Windows for certain kinds of recreation while, say, using KDE's niceties for most things
05:26:07 <kmc> kernels are insecure because they're giant C programs, so let's give up on all the properties they were supposed to provide, while replacing them with other giant C programs
05:26:20 <kmc> but these are more secure because they haven't been around as long and fewer bugs are known!
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05:26:38 <kmc> Sgeo: sure, you can do that within a very standard Linux distro though
05:26:42 <Sgeo> It's also about having fun with different distros to their fullest complexity, without ever disconnecting from all the other things I was doing
05:26:43 <kmc> using qemu-kvm say
05:27:00 <Sgeo> kmc, ok. Still need VGA pass-thru for 3d games?
05:27:41 <kmc> don't know anything about that
05:27:48 <Bike> kmc: you know about stuff like that eros OS project right? does it not suck?
05:27:54 <kmc> i don't know about eros OS
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05:29:47 <Bike> http://www.eros-os.org/eros.html
05:30:02 <Sgeo> Hmm. I wonder if, if I use Windows as a base OS and just virtualize Linux, if some virtualization things allow some sort of keyboard passthru so I could type in Linux without much risk of interception
05:31:36 <Sgeo> EROS looks dead
05:32:33 <Bike> The front page, which I didn't bother linking, says basically "this is dead, see Coyotos" and links to that.
05:39:15 <Sgeo> Coyotos looks dead too
05:39:37 <Bike> Everybody's dead.
05:40:32 <Sgeo> Oh they're the people behind BitC?
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05:53:17 <Sgeo> I.. think XenClient might just support 3d gaming without any difficulties? I don't know
05:54:30 <Sgeo> Yeah, I see someone complaining about being able to do 3d stuff with only one VM at a time
05:54:34 <Sgeo> I don't really mind that
05:54:59 <Bike> I hope this means people are trying to play shooters twice at once.
05:57:26 <Sgeo> It occurs to me a major drawback of XenClient might be being unable to run VirtualBox inside the guest OSes
06:00:00 <pikhq_> kmc: Everyone knows it's adding security, it's more code!
06:00:10 <pikhq_> More code is more secure donchano
06:00:13 <zzo38> Well, you might still be able to run Bochs inside the guest OSes, though?
06:00:32 <pikhq_> I'd be impressed if you got Bochs to not run.
06:00:50 <pikhq_> Sgeo: VirtualBox should run, though probably not as fast.
06:01:09 <pikhq_> VirtualBox works just fine without hardware virtualization.
06:02:37 <zzo38> Do you not want security through simplicity?
06:02:45 <Sgeo> Blah, why can't a hypervisor being run under VT-x use VT-x itself? Does VT-x extensions not apply to VT-x extensions?
06:03:01 <pikhq_> zzo38: That is what I actually prefer.
06:03:10 <pikhq_> zzo38: Obviously no bugs, rather than no obvious bugs.
06:03:32 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes. I prefer too
06:03:33 <Sgeo> pritn "Hello, world!"
06:04:23 <pikhq_> Hmm, seems VT-x is set up such that a hypervisor using it *could* emulate VT-x.
06:05:19 <pikhq_> VirtualBox does not seem to implement it though.
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06:09:40 <Sgeo> Wait, VirtualBox does not implement sanely being under another VT-x hypervisor, or does not implement being a hypervisor under which other hypervisors can use VT-x?
06:15:31 <pikhq_> Does not implement being a hypervisor under which other hypervisors can use VT-x.
06:16:42 <Fiora> what about that thing where some virtual machines use ring 1 for the internal OS and ring0 for the real OS?
06:16:48 <Fiora> that'd prevent a VM inside a VM too, right?
06:17:08 <pikhq_> That's how Xen does its paravirtualization.
06:17:24 <pikhq_> Note that the ring 1 OS is written to run under the ring 0 OS.
06:17:46 <pikhq_> VT-x does not run that way.
06:18:11 <zzo38> I want to run a VM inside a VM inside a VM inside a VM inside a VM inside a VM inside a VM inside a VM, for only the reason that I want the VM to be compatible with the host system or with a different kind of host system too.
06:18:14 <pikhq_> Instead it's basically hacking the Popek and Golberg requirements onto x86.
06:18:16 <Bike> we need aleph-0 rings for all my minecraft-in-minecraft, imo
06:19:49 <zzo38> Bike: I have thought of something like that too (but not with Minecraft), and where each program calls its own ring, zero.
06:20:19 <zzo38> But it is difficult.
06:23:34 <Sgeo> pikhq_, does Xen full virtualizatio support being a hypervisor under which other hypervisors can use VT-x?
06:23:49 <Sgeo> And which does XenClient use? >.>
06:25:13 <fizzie> Isn't it a contradiction that there's seven days a week, but only five or six weekdays?
06:25:15 <pikhq_> Sgeo: I don't know if Xen supports it or not.
06:25:41 <zzo38> fizzie: No, it is a stupid language.
06:25:55 <Sgeo> fizzie, is that like driving in a parkway and parking in a driveway?
06:26:03 <Sgeo> (That joke is how I learned what a parkway is)
06:27:42 <Sgeo> Err, this page seems to imply that the 3d thing is a XenClient XT thing
06:35:37 <Sgeo> ooh https://github.com/GaloisInc/HaLVM
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06:42:35 <zzo38> How many people think the rule that a aura that is also a creature is discarded, is a bad rule?
06:43:24 <Sgeo> Hmm http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/336186-33-full-gaming-virtual-machine
06:43:50 <zzo38> shachaf: A subtype of an enchantment, in Magic: the Gathering cards. (Also called a "local enchantment")
06:47:13 <zzo38> There are some other rules I don't like, too, some others of which are also state-based effects. I think losing due to being unable to draw a card should be immediate rather than a state-based effect, and that a token ceasing to exist when not in play should be inherent in its "initial state" rather than being a state-based effect.
06:47:48 <zzo38> I also think that copies of spells should count as tokens.
06:48:26 <zzo38> I think there are too many klugy rules; I would rather it be mathematically elegant.
06:48:44 <zzo38> What do you think of this?
06:50:13 <Bike> I think it's funny that the guy who originally developed Magic was a student of that one combinatorialist.
06:50:20 <Bike> Also that MtG seems to work by common law which is kinda great.
06:51:08 <shachaf> I prefer games that work by C'mon Law.
06:51:42 <Bike> That's where you whine until the rules change, right?
06:52:10 <zzo38> I like some of the rule changes but many I don't like.
06:53:34 <zzo38> I also think that mana burn has a strategic purpose and would like to keep it. I also like that the remove from game zone has been changed now it is called exile zone; "removed from game" zone isn't a very good name for it.
06:54:23 <zzo38> However, they didn't change it enough. I would have called the "graveyard" instead the "discard zone" and the "library" instead the "draw pile zone" or "draw zone"
06:54:59 <zzo38> However, those names as not as bad as "removed from game", so it isn't as much of the problem.
06:56:06 <zzo38> What is your opinion about my suggestion about tokens and "initial state"?
06:56:19 <Bike> zzo38: http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74231
06:57:24 <zzo38> Bike: I have seen that before.
06:58:04 <zzo38> Basically, what I mean is that, if it were a Haskell function type to move an object from one zone to another, instead of moveToZone :: Object -> Zone -> Game Object will be moveToZone :: Object -> Zone -> Game (Maybe Object)
06:59:08 <zzo38> Does that explain it better, or worse?
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07:08:46 <zzo38> I suppose it might be a different game.
07:11:05 <zzo38> It would be the mathematical version of Magic: the Gathering cards, I suppose, in case you value mathematical elegance over sanity, or something like that.
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07:19:54 <zzo38> Do you know of any existing cards that would have a significant change of use if losing by unable to draw a card is made immediate?
07:20:06 <zzo38> Or a combination of cards?
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07:24:54 <Sgeo> I think a lot of the reason I haven't had 'fun' before 2011 was a result of utter sexual obliviousness
07:25:50 <Fiora> oh no it's sgeo tells us about his sexual adventures time
07:27:17 <Sgeo> My prior sentence was really the only thing I desired to say about the subject now.
07:27:36 <Sgeo> Although the topic in general is not one I feel particularly reluctant to discuss
07:27:50 <shachaf> does there exist a topic you feel reluctant to discuss
07:34:54 <fizzie> That's probably rutabagas.
07:39:09 <shachaf> I hear that's illegal under the DMCA now.
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07:41:54 <zzo38> What does "TMI" mean?
07:42:17 <zzo38> Are you reluctant to say what topics you feel reluctant to discuss?
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07:49:23 <Sgeo> zzo38, "TMI" means "Too Much Information". And yes.
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08:25:39 <Deewiant> Is this some kind of sex discussion channel nowadays? (Or was it always?)
08:27:11 <fizzie> Deewiant: Not just any sex, esoteric sex.
08:27:37 <Sgeo> Hmm, if I understand Xen properly, I could effectively use it just like VirtualBox except I need the started OS to technically be Xen
08:27:52 <Sgeo> But it would feel like my base OS is a Linux distro, the dom0
08:29:17 <fizzie> The dom0 is still under the Xen hypervisor, technically.
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08:30:10 <Sgeo> Yes, but in terms of using it, the UI would feel like it isn't
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08:37:54 <zzo38> Famicom keyboard seem to be that the shifted codes are the XOR 16 of ASCII codes of each keys.
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08:39:49 <fizzie> fungot: You used to run in a Xen domU back before they dropped support for non-PAE systems, right? Did it feel any different?
08:39:49 <fungot> fizzie: and allows fun obfuscation you can do it with
08:39:55 <fizzie> (Or maybe that was before your time.)
08:44:21 <zzo38> Can you make 42 in a PHP code having only punctuation?
08:46:04 <Jafet> is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM punctuation
08:47:01 <zzo38> If you mean :: then yes it is OK. However, I mean specifically ASCII punctuation, so that is OK.
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08:54:32 <zzo38> O! I managed to score the exact same number of points in today's basketball game as in yesterday's game.
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09:08:15 <zzo38> Can you make 42 in a PHP code having only the ASCII punctuation codes (no letter, number, control, non-ASCII), please?
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09:24:32 <fizzie> zzo38: There's a trivial solution of (!-"")+(!-"")+...+(!-"") except with 42 of the (!-"") terms in it. It can probably be shortened a lot.
09:24:55 <fizzie> (Even by using that single building block, by doing it as 6*7.)
09:25:32 <fizzie> And in fact you don't need the - either, (!"") is okay as the number 1.
09:26:50 <zzo38> It can be done shorter, but yes that is one way, at least.
09:27:03 <fizzie> $ echo -e '<?php echo(((!"")+(!"")+(!"")+(!"")+(!"")+(!""))*((!"")+(!"")+(!"")+(!"")+(!"")+(!"")+(!""))); ?>\n' > tmp.php; php5 tmp.php
09:27:53 <fizzie> Well, and of course there's also the plain
09:27:53 <fizzie> $ echo -e '<?php echo(((!"")+(!"")+(!"")+(!"")).((!"")+(!""))); ?>\n' > tmp.php; php5 tmp.php
09:28:16 <zzo38> Yes, but still, there is shorter way. Those are a few ways, though.
09:28:32 <Lymia> I seem to have found a gearlance crash
09:28:37 <fizzie> Oh, I'm sure there's something very clever.
09:28:47 <zzo38> I wonder if there is any shorter than what I have?
09:29:30 <fizzie> Lymia: It works for me: http://sprunge.us/UALQ
09:32:13 <zzo38> It seems you have 39 characters to make 42, which is shorter from what you had before, at least !
09:32:38 <Lymia> fizzie, http://paste.strictfp.com/37078/ac1fa492561ed0da0a5da3066b4a5cb7
09:32:50 <Lymia> This seems to hang the evaluator
09:33:02 <fizzie> I was *just* about to comment on that.
09:33:10 <fizzie> I had written this: It is interpreted rather inefficiently, though, so maybe there's potential for a denial-of-service kind of thing there, with a suitably nested ((()*-1 ()*-1 ()*-1)*-1 ... )*-1 thing. (Please don't do that to the bot.)
09:33:48 <fizzie> Since the ()-loops don't take any cycles, but will still have to be counted down; it doesn't check whether there's any content inside that takes cycles.
09:34:17 <Lymia> Would forbidding ()*-1 fix it?
09:34:31 <fizzie> Though with all those ...s in there -- is that the literal program? -- it should just hit the cycle limit at least reasonably fast.
09:34:39 <Lymia> That is the literal program, yeah.
09:35:20 <fizzie> Maybe doing approximately 10k rounds of something that contains a countdown loop of 100k just does take long, then.
09:36:34 <Lymia> The cycle limit is 10000, right?
09:36:58 <Lymia> (..........()*-1.....)
09:37:12 <fizzie> Yes, 10000 was an approximation of 100000/15.
09:37:13 <Lymia> Giving (100000/15)*100000
09:37:16 <fizzie> Not a particularly good one.
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09:38:03 <fizzie> Pruning out ()s that have no content that takes ticks should fix that.
09:38:25 <Lymia> I was just going "wtf, why isn't this generation taking so long"
09:38:35 <fizzie> I'll try to remember to see if I should build in such a step, since Bad Things might happen if someone submits a program like that.
09:38:46 <zzo38> fizzie: Now see if you can do with less than 39 characters.
09:39:09 <zzo38> After that, see if if it possible to do with less than 12 characters.
09:40:22 <Lymia> evo-169-129.bfjoust:.....-...,:cut crash:,..><
09:40:22 <Lymia> evo-169-156.bfjoust:-<><->+....,:cut crash:,.>
09:40:22 <Lymia> evo-86-159.bfjoust:..........(..........(..........(..........(..........,:cut crash:,.....)*-1.....)*-1.....)*-1.....)*-1.....
09:40:30 <Lymia> This is apparently not uncommon either...
09:44:44 <fizzie> zzo38: (!""+!""+!""+!"").(!""+!"") is 27 characters, I guess. Those parentheses were a bit useless.
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09:46:26 <zzo38> fizzie: OK. That is still too long, though.
09:51:02 <fizzie> I don't think I know enough PHP to be good at this. (Plus I need to go listen to a dissertation now.)
09:51:24 <zzo38> What dissertation is that?
09:53:13 <fizzie> It's http://ics.aalto.fi/en/current/events/doctoral_defence_of_m-sc-janne_pylkkonen/ this one.
09:55:21 <fizzie> It's mostly about discriminative training, I believe.
10:15:32 <Sgeo> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/09/24/ubuntu_amazon_suggestions/
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10:40:36 <Jafet> Shuttleworth: "Don't be mad, you trust us with root anyway"
10:41:37 <Jafet> "These are not ads because they are not paid placement"
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11:15:56 <Lymia> Set the hill for the evolver to Tue, 08 Feb 2011 20:11:28
11:16:03 <Lymia> Let's see what happens!
11:19:09 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
11:19:17 <Lymia> The old hill apparently does not parse under gearlance
11:20:11 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
11:20:45 <oerjan> Lymia: this may have been before changing to an interpreter which bans unmatched [] inside (), i remember some programs were manually translated during the changeover
11:21:36 <Lymia> Found and removed the culprit
11:21:49 <oerjan> it was afair a simple matter of using ()% instead
11:22:10 <Lymia> impomatic's programs, both of them.
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11:24:29 <oerjan> <fizzie> zzo38: (!""+!""+!""+!"").(!""+!"") is 27 characters, I guess. Those parentheses were a bit useless.
11:24:47 <oerjan> presumably it would get shorter if you could find a shorter representation of 2?
11:25:32 <Lymia> What are you doing?
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11:25:38 <oerjan> hm, does php have << ? in which case (!""<<(!""+!"")).(!""+!"") might work?
11:25:44 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott.
11:25:51 <Lymia> What are you doing?? o~o
11:26:18 <oerjan> Lymia: zzo38 gave a puzzle about how to get the number 42 in php using only ASCII punctuation characters
11:26:38 <oerjan> fizzie got it down to the quote above
11:26:48 <oerjan> but zzo38 said there's something shorter
11:27:56 <oerjan> also i don't know php either, but i'm guessing ! is logical not, "" is treated as false, . is concatenation and php is well-known to convert insanely
11:28:01 <Lymia> $_=!""+!"";($_+$_).$_
11:28:32 <oerjan> is that a single expression? i was assuming that was implied although maybe zzo38 didn't mean that
11:29:14 <oerjan> that might be an expression at least
11:30:04 <oerjan> it's ok HackEgo, i didn't really expect you to have it
11:30:55 <Lymia> (($_=!""+!"")+$_).$_
11:31:00 <oerjan> hm zzo38 _may_ be implying 12 characters is enough
11:31:37 <oerjan> <zzo38> After that, see if if it possible to do with less than 12 characters.
11:32:43 <Lymia> Tested in a PHP interpreter
11:32:48 <Lymia> (($_=!""+!"")+$_).$_ == "42"
11:33:14 <Lymia> So does ($_=!""+!"")+$_.$_
11:33:17 <oerjan> <zzo38> Can you make 42 in a PHP code having only the ASCII punctuation codes (no letter, number, control, non-ASCII), please?
11:33:33 <oerjan> i don't think that implies it has to be an expression
11:33:48 <Lymia> The expression is shorter anyways :p
11:36:57 <oerjan> yeah best i've seen so far
11:37:04 <oerjan> still not 12, though :P
11:39:05 <oerjan> the part other than the expression for 2 is already 11 chars
11:57:15 <Lymia> !bfjoust holycraparush? >+(-[-[-[-[-]]>+(-[-])*9]>+(-[-[-]]>+(-[-])*9)*9]>+(-[-[-[-]]>+(-[-])*9]>+(-[-[-]]>+(-[-])*9)*9)*9)*9
11:57:28 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_holycraparush_: 3.0
11:57:35 <Lymia> Apparently one change is enough to encourage the evolver to produce sensible things.
11:57:40 <Lymia> Make empty programs commit suicide via <
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12:30:52 <elliott> <kmc> i wish our operating systems just fucking worked and then we wouldn't need to slap another layer on
12:30:58 <elliott> kmc: donations to the Write @ Fund are welcome
12:40:00 <elliott> the fund that gives me enough money to stop caring about other things and devote my energies to writing @
12:41:53 <Sgeo> You know how I have a mythical Sgeolang? @ is elliottos
12:42:18 <Sgeo> Except @ presumably has some design thoughts at least
12:42:18 <elliott> i think @'s design may be considerably more concrete.
12:42:32 <ThatOtherPerson> I'm rather new, so I don't really know the names of everybody's mythlangs yet
12:42:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well it sort of is.
12:43:18 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't remember if elliott wanted to go with ~computing environment~ or not
12:47:40 <elliott> ThatOtherPerson: an English-language macro expanding to the name I'll give @ in the future
12:49:19 <elliott> when you say @, you're saying the name I'll give @.
12:49:23 <elliott> you just don't know it yet.
12:49:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: no you fool, mitosis is the name of the prototypes that will be written to aid the development of @
12:50:01 <elliott> ThatOtherPerson: it is a committed-vapourware operating environment for computers
12:50:03 <Phantom_Hoover> ThatOtherPerson, (what @ actually is is only a little more confusing than the name situation)
12:50:13 <ThatOtherPerson> And from what you just said, @ is not an English-language macro
12:50:36 <ThatOtherPerson> @ is obviously a committed-vapourware operating environment for computers
12:51:54 <Phantom_Hoover> it doesn't enforce a separation between persistent and other memory!
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12:56:14 <fizzie> I was also assuming that _ is not punctuation.
12:56:35 <ThatOtherPerson> So does that mean variable values can be stored to hard drive?
12:59:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ruby: not found
13:00:41 <Jafet> Did you know that ruby uses qsort to sort arrays
13:01:04 <fizzie> PHP does have a comma expression, FWIW.
13:01:24 <Jafet> And that it doesn't even use libc qsort, but ruby_qsort
13:01:49 <fizzie> Re ($_=!""+!"")+$_.$_, I don't know if it has a defined evaluation order. Maybe it has. (Or maybe it's again defined by implementation.)
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13:51:52 <Lymia> !bfjoust generation-1200 +.+.(+.)*7>+.[+.].++.(+.+.(+.)*7>+.[+.].+)*7>+.[+.+.(+.)*7>+.[+.].+].++.+.(+.+.(+.)*7>+.[+.].++.(+.+.(+.)*7>+.[+.].+)*7>+.[+.+.(+.)*7>+.[+.].+].++.+.)*7>+.[+.+.(+.)*7>+.[+.].++.(+.+.(+.)*7>+.[+.].+)*7>+.[+.+.(+.)*7>+.[+.].+].++.+.].++.
13:51:57 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_generation-1200: 9.4
13:52:58 <Lymia> Population size 20, hill vs hill. :p
13:53:07 <Lymia> Guess it /can/ make stuff other than just vibrators
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14:23:57 * ais523 attempts to get a Slashdot first post that's good enough to get modded to +5
14:23:57 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:24:00 <lambdabot> elliott said 23h 58m 53s ago: second day in a row of french spam...
14:24:03 -!- sebbu has quit (Quit: reboot).
14:26:31 <ais523> @tell elliott the filter caught all four spambots that edited today and yesterday (see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:AbuseLog), but even though it's configured to automatically block, it isn't automatically blocking; is there a configuration issue in the MediaWiki extension?
14:28:54 <elliott> @tell ais523 good question!
14:28:59 <lambdabot> elliott said 4s ago: good question!
14:29:17 <elliott> ais523: how come http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:AbuseLog/19 doesn't work, I wonder?
14:29:18 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:29:30 <elliott> also http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:AbuseFilter/examine/log/19
14:29:38 <ais523> elliott: every entry in the abuse log seems to be repeated
14:29:43 <ais523> and only one of the repeats work
14:30:10 <elliott> ais523: hmm... that's not good
14:30:35 <elliott> do you have any debugging suggestions? I could get around to updating MW sometime, maybe that'd help?
14:30:51 <ais523> I'm not very familiar with the server side of MediaWiki, just how to use it as a user
14:31:06 <elliott> btw, I wonder if we should add some more CAPTCHA questions
14:31:12 <ais523> that might or might not help
14:31:15 <elliott> maybe if they have to use a human enough they'll give up :)
14:32:10 <elliott> ais523: btw, why'd the filter not catch http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&curid=1&diff=35732&oldid=34660?
14:32:14 <elliott> because of the XHTML br tag?
14:32:30 <ais523> indeed, also there's whitespace before it
14:32:35 <ais523> that seemed too potentially prone to false positives
14:32:42 <elliott> we should just add "Are you French?" to the signup.
14:32:47 <ais523> I'm checking for just text<br><br>text because that's what the spambots are doing
14:32:47 <elliott> and disallow registration if you say yes.
14:32:53 <elliott> that also has the advantage of keeping French people out
14:32:57 <ais523> very consistently on their own user page
14:33:09 <ais523> well, the number of <br>s vary
14:33:14 <elliott> ais523: perhaps we should check for two brs in a row
14:33:20 <ais523> I think they have some sort of automated HTML generator
14:33:35 <elliott> and no newlines on the page, or something
14:33:36 <ais523> not really sure if I want to broaden a filter that's apparently already working
14:33:56 <Lymia> Send it to google translate
14:33:58 <Lymia> And ask it what language it is
14:34:08 <elliott> ais523: well, it didn't work to catch Main Page spam
14:34:15 <ais523> yeah it only checks userspace
14:34:22 <ais523> because the spambots are all consistently trying to edit that first
14:34:30 <ais523> and it blocked a userspace edit from each of the spambots
14:34:31 <elliott> oh I see, it caught the user first
14:34:34 <ais523> just didn't block the spambot too
14:34:39 <ais523> my idea was that it'd catch that edit, block the spambot
14:34:45 <ais523> then it wouldn't have a chance to make the other edits
14:35:08 <elliott> ais523: I am a bit worried that the spam will end up being in recent changes instead, with them registering and getting blocked :)
14:35:45 <ais523> elliott: registration would be in recent changes; I'm not sure if abuse filter-related blocks would be, though
14:36:01 <ais523> but at the point when they register, they aren't spambots :)
14:36:27 <ais523> in order to prevent main page spam, I can add a canary string that causes changes to fail if it isn't in the new text of thepage
14:36:41 <Lymia> !bfjoust generation-1359 ++(+)*7>.>-[+]<+(++(+)*7>.>-[+]<)*7>.>-[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<]<++[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<+(++(+)*7>.>-[+]<)*7>.>-[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<]<+](++(+)*7>.>-[+]<+(++(+)*7>.>-[+]<)*7>.>-[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<]<++[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<+(++(+)*7>.>-[+]<)*7>.>-[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<]<+])*7>.>-[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<+(++(+)*7>.>-[+]<)*7>.>-[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<]<++[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<+(++(+)*7>.>-[+]<)*7>.>-[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<]<+]]<+
14:36:42 <ais523> we can either use something that's already there, or an arbitrary string in a comment
14:36:44 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_generation-1359: 7.5
14:36:55 <elliott> eh, if it would have been blocked I don't care
14:37:06 <elliott> ais523: and, well, I mean, we should be catching 100% of spambots at user regsitration time
14:37:20 <Lymia> Stupid EgoBot inconstant fitness function :p
14:37:34 <Lymia> elliott, I still vote for blocking any edits that appear to be in French.
14:37:53 <elliott> unfortunately technoology has not yet advanced to the point where we can distinguish French from line noise
14:38:00 <elliott> and programs that look like line noise are on topic
14:38:14 <ais523> as are programs that look like French!
14:39:05 <elliott> ais523: no, we /do/ have minimal standards
14:40:53 <Lymia> !bfjoust generation-1366 ++(+)*7>>-[+].<+(++(+)*7>>-[+].<)*7>>-[++(+)*7>>-[+].<].<++(++(+)*7>>-[+].<+(++(+)*7>>-[+].<)*7>>-[++(+)*7>>-[+].<].<++)*7>>-[++(+)*7>>-[+].<+(++(+)*7>>-[+].<)*7>>-[++(+)*7>>-[+].<].<++].<+
14:40:56 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_generation-1366: 7.6
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14:49:00 <Lymia> Can somebody, lke.
14:49:10 <Lymia> analyze how that actually works :p
14:49:31 <Lymia> What exactly it does
14:57:01 <ais523> looks like it's mostly but not quite a size 1 offset clear leaving a size 9 trail on the cell before the cell it clears
14:57:09 <ais523> err, order 1 offset clear
14:57:41 <ais523> !bfjoust generation-1366-golfed ((+)*9>>-[+]<)*-1
14:57:44 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_generation-1366-golfed: 9.7
14:57:50 <ais523> !bfjoust generation-1366-golfed <
14:57:54 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_generation-1366-golfed: 0.0
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15:06:45 <elliott> ais523: I'm just going to upgrade MW later
15:13:31 -!- Taneb has joined.
15:14:16 <Taneb> Chinese graphics card problem is over!
15:25:36 <Taneb> Also, apparently Hexham wants to be the Barcelona of the north
15:25:54 <Taneb> I for one am against splitting from Spain
15:42:36 <ais523> yay, the phd thesis group committee people have decided that I'm doing well enough to not be thrown out of the university for another 8 months
15:43:21 <elliott> i'd throw ais523 out of a university
15:43:30 <ais523> also, I've acheived my goal
15:43:41 <ais523> of getting first post on a Slashdot story /and/ having it moderated up to +5
15:43:59 <ais523> (= it's an actually useful first post, rather than just a blatant "first post" post)
15:45:20 <elliott> ais523: um looks like +4 to me!!
15:45:57 <ais523> elliott: it's listed as 4 on my userpage because that doesn't include karma bonuses
15:46:06 <ais523> but 5 on the story page because that does
15:46:28 <ais523> people won't mod something up that appears to be at 5, even though it's not technically a no-op (because it's visible on the userpage)
15:47:32 <ais523> I actually complained to the slashdot admins about that, in that slashdot allows a post to be at 6 and merely displays it as 5
15:47:42 <ais523> but they either didn't understand or didn't care
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16:16:25 <fizzie> Or they didn't understand and didn't care.
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16:31:55 <elliott> Taneb: that person is a troll.
16:32:15 <elliott> 15:46:55 -!- zedchelon [zedchelon@ip24-251-168-64.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #haskell
16:32:18 <elliott> 15:47:14 <zedchelon> Before I get started in here, I would like to point something out..
16:32:21 <elliott> 15:47:15 <zedchelon> http://www.krioma.net/articles/Bridge%20Theory/Einstein%20Rosen%20Bridge.htm <- this is just as much math as geometric polyhedra are.
16:32:24 <elliott> 15:48:16 <zedchelon> I'm sorry if you are too stubbon to know the difference.
16:32:27 <elliott> 15:48:50 <zedchelon> And won't admit that 50% of the axioms mathematics has been based on were proven wrong, then corrected.
16:32:30 <elliott> 15:49:55 <zedchelon> And I am really sorry you tried so hard to learn mathematics, that you no longer comprhend simple English or any other language.
16:32:32 <elliott> 15:50:10 <glguy> zedchelon: this might be the wrong channel fo ryou
16:32:35 <elliott> 15:50:15 <zedchelon> I am really sorry that you get emotional and can't control it either for that matter.
16:32:38 <elliott> (from /lastlog zedchelon; some lines may be omitted)
16:34:04 <ais523> you can't prove an axiom wrong
16:34:08 <ais523> only inconsistent with other axioms
16:35:27 <shachaf> AXIOM X: An axiom which mentions other axioms is wrong.
16:36:27 <Taneb> shachaf, I think that would be better if it said references rather than mentions
16:36:29 <fizzie> AXIOM X: The body spray for real men.
16:41:43 <elliott> ais523: also, e.g. false is a wrong axiom
16:41:50 <elliott> it's inconsistent even without any other axioms
16:42:18 <ais523> technically speaking that's more of an argument than a proof
16:42:29 * ais523 vaguely wonders if you can have a logic where false is an axiom, and true is unprovable
16:42:49 <elliott> well, I guess I mean p & ~p is inconsistent
16:42:57 <elliott> since you don't necessarily have principle of explosion
16:43:05 <elliott> paraconsistent logics have p & ~p
16:45:17 <shachaf> ais523: Sure, by calling true "false" and false "true".
16:45:42 <ais523> shachaf: well it'd depend on the other axioms
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17:00:15 <Gregor> http://www.doxdesk.com/img/updates/20091116-so-large.gif StackOverflow in a nutshell.
17:01:03 <elliott> some tags are better than others
17:01:08 <elliott> though not as better as they should be :(
17:02:18 <Gregor> I love the "related" section on this X-D
17:02:54 <Taneb> "where are my legs?"
17:03:49 <Gregor> I love "Is there a jQuery plugin for making an HTML page appear in the browser?"
17:06:07 <Jafet> No, you have to do that manually.
17:07:22 <ais523> Gregor: I'm having trouble working out what they meant by that question
17:08:13 <ais523> like, opening a browser window containing an HTML page? changing the currently displayed page to match some HTML? writing a page that will display given HTML when it loads? (that last one is pretty easy even without jQuery)
17:08:52 <Gregor> Not sure if calling bluff or not getting joke X-D
17:09:54 -!- Arc_Koen has joined.
17:12:16 <ais523> Gregor: I know you were trying to make a joke, but I'm not sure it's warranted given the situation
17:12:36 <ais523> the question's worded badly enough that they may not be asking for something trivial after all
17:12:58 <Gregor> Right, not getting the joke, got it X-D
17:13:49 <elliott> Gregor: did you forget ais523 doesn't click on links
17:14:01 <ais523> oh right, does it require the link to be clicked?
17:14:04 <Gregor> Ohhhhhhhhh, that would be an explanation if that's the case X-D
17:14:07 <ais523> because if it does, I wouldn't get it
17:14:23 <Gregor> It's a joke mockup of a SO question X-D
17:15:21 <Gregor> Hey, don't ask me why this person thought .gif was a good idea X-D
17:15:32 <Gregor> Ugh, I need to stop using ex-hyphen-dee.
17:15:43 <Gregor> It's becoming my new colon-p.
17:16:07 <Gregor> It is declared, from this day forth, I shall not use that smiley et cetera et cetera.
17:16:15 <elliott> ais523: hmm, interesting new language: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Abcdefq
17:16:48 <ais523> elliott: that link redirects to Gregor's link
17:16:59 <ais523> is this a mode of Konversation brokenness I haven't yet discovered?
17:17:13 <elliott> ais523: hmm, works for me now
17:17:14 <ais523> retyping the link I get a blank page
17:17:20 <elliott> a momentary glitch, perhaps?
17:17:23 <ais523> or, rather, a nonexistent page
17:17:42 <ais523> oklopol: I suspect it's elliott redirecting on the esolangs server :)
17:17:54 <elliott> how dare you!!! that would be *highly* irresponsible of me
17:18:01 <ais523> should have captured the headers while it was still up
17:18:32 <ais523> I guess I'll have to reconfigure Firefox to disallow esolangs.org to redirect to third-party websites
17:19:24 <elliott> ais523: that would break at least one thing
17:19:41 <elliott> (http://esolangs.org/files/* links, of which there are several still on the web, IIRC)
17:19:53 <ais523> I guess I could add a prompt
17:19:58 <ais523> I already have it prompt on every cookie
17:20:18 <elliott> shouldn't you just add a prompt for every redirect, if you can handle that kind of torture already?
17:20:45 <ais523> not sure if Firefox has an option to prompt on redirects, or if I'd have to write an extension
17:20:50 <elliott> I have a feeling I know why you don't like using the web
17:20:53 <ais523> the cookies thing isn't so bad because it has an always allow/always deny
17:21:10 <ais523> elliott: it's not because of that; I do get annoyed by pages that try to set cookies on every keypress
17:21:14 <ais523> but I'd likely get annoyed by them anyway
17:22:38 <ais523> I guess alternatively I could set the browser to not load images
17:22:50 <ais523> that actually seems like a reasonable idea, although it'd need a whitelist/blacklist too
17:23:11 <ais523> elliott: how do you tolerate the web without whitelists/blacklists for everything?
17:23:21 <elliott> note to self: I can get ais523 to do increasingly unreasonable things by messing with esolangs.org's nginx configuration
17:23:35 <ais523> elliott: not if you want me to continue administering esolangs.org
17:23:49 <elliott> are you threatening to quit because I set up a stupid redirect for five seconds :P
17:24:16 <ais523> no, I'm threatening to quit if you do it consistently :)
17:24:30 <ais523> btw, you probably /could/ have convinced me it was a Konversation bug if only there was an actual page there
17:25:02 <elliott> well I didn't want to disturb a link with an actual esolang
17:25:06 <elliott> or write a new esolang for the purpose
17:25:15 <ais523> and I didn't actually look at the resulting redirected page for more than a couple of seconds
17:25:16 <elliott> and also I suspected you'd report it
17:25:26 <ais523> only if I could figure out wtf caused it
17:25:31 <elliott> which would admittedly be funny, but you'd probably get mad if I later revealed the truth
17:25:44 <ais523> as would the Konversation devs
17:26:00 <ais523> fwiw, the colors-in-links bug was fixed the day I reported it
17:26:19 <ais523> so `relcome actually lead to a concrete reduction in Konversation's bugginess
17:27:08 <oklopol> ais523: what's wrong with the web?
17:27:15 <oklopol> (apart from the lack of porn)
17:27:49 <ais523> oklopol: basically the huge amount of extra stuff that's there when you're just trying to get some information
17:28:16 <ais523> for one thing, unless you know the other end, you can't know whether the page you're aiming for is even going to have the information you want
17:28:25 <oklopol> significantly less than if you go to the library
17:28:57 <ais523> I watched someone trying to search for something on Google recently; they clicked the first result (a stackoverflow link), and didn't notice the question was a different question than the one they wanted to know the answer to (and the answer to their question was in one of the non-accepted answers as an aside)
17:29:15 <ais523> and there's all the HTML and images and so on that's around what you're looking for
17:29:21 <ais523> and the pages aren't necessarily consistent from one view to the next
17:29:57 <ais523> so when I'm using the web, either I go directly to a page which I already know is likely to have what I'm looking for
17:30:18 <ais523> or I ask around beforehand to try to establish what the appropriate page is
17:30:33 <oklopol> what i do is i write stuff on google and in 5 seconds i have everything i need
17:30:35 <ais523> this is kind-of why I'm so upset at an esolangs.org/wiki/ link not going to MediaWiki
17:30:51 <ais523> because it betrays my trust that what I'll find at the other end of the link is what I'm accepting
17:30:56 <ais523> it makes me consider the site unreliable
17:31:03 <ais523> oklopol: google doesn't work like that
17:31:13 <ais523> it gives you a page that approximately matches some of your search terms
17:31:20 <ais523> which may or may not have anything to do with what you're looking for
17:31:43 <oklopol> how does that differ from asking a person
17:32:03 <oklopol> except for being much faster
17:32:13 <ais523> oklopol: here's one for you: locate the most recent c-intercal release online
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17:32:25 <ais523> there is a fast way to solve this problem, and a slow way
17:32:45 <oklopol> yeah if i need something that 5 people know about and i know one of them, then yeah, google isn't the way.
17:33:06 <ais523> especially because AFAIK you can't find the answer via Google unless you think of searching alt.lang.intercal
17:33:14 <oklopol> but if i need something that 5 people know about and i don't happen to know one of them (which happens about daily), google is the *only* solution.
17:33:42 <oklopol> yeah google won't tell you how thick my fingers are either.
17:33:46 <ais523> for most of those "I need something" requests, I'd automatically go to Wikipedia first
17:34:29 <ais523> although that's generally more than "5 people know about", but that's reasonable given that if only 5 people know about something and it's not related to esolangs or nomic or NetHack variant development or some similarly narrow field, I'm probably not interested in it either
17:34:50 <oklopol> so a guy asks a prof, "is there an unambiguous tree-adjoining grammar whose language is inherently ambiguous context-free" and i suggest one. the prof says he wants to cite me in his upcoming textbook. asks me my year of birth and military rank.
17:34:51 <ais523> elliott: there's a newer version
17:35:04 <elliott> ais523: apparently not new enough, since not even the AUR package has it
17:35:25 <ais523> elliott: I did a bad job of publicising it, really
17:35:36 <ais523> there was the announcement on alt.lang.intercal, and that's about it
17:35:49 <oklopol> in theoretical computer science, everything is known by about 5 people.
17:36:04 <elliott> ais523: oh, but result #1 was esr's intercal site
17:36:14 <elliott> (I googled "latest c-intercal")
17:36:25 <ais523> elliott: ooh, I checked the top few Google results to make sure there wasn't anything useful
17:36:26 <elliott> and also, that would be the first link I'd click if I didn't already know about C-INTERCAL's history
17:36:30 <ais523> but missed that the NEWS.html auto-updated
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17:36:49 <elliott> ais523: it seems that what you have managed to deduce is only that *you* are bad at using Google to find information
17:37:15 <ais523> well that's not surprising, given that it's blocked in the browser and I don't have much practice with it
17:37:24 <ais523> I do very occasionally use duckduckgo
17:37:43 <oklopol> well, it's the greatest thing in the universe
17:37:53 <ais523> but visiting a site when I have no idea about what it's like in advance is ridiculous
17:38:27 <oklopol> you have some sort of principle of not finding out about new things?
17:39:01 * ais523 wonders what percentage of web pages contain malware (including in adverts)
17:39:14 * ais523 looks it up on Wikipedia
17:39:20 <elliott> mythical Linux-targetting malware?
17:39:34 <oklopol> as a windows user, i've never experienced this
17:40:05 <ais523> elliott: well even flashing images are malware to some extent
17:40:51 <ais523> elliott: even a site with a black background can be painful if I'm not warned in advance
17:41:03 <ais523> for a while I genuinely seriously disabled colors on webpages
17:41:09 <ais523> but it ended up more trouble than it was worth
17:41:17 <oklopol> forced everything white on black
17:41:29 <oklopol> it was more worth than trouble
17:42:48 <ais523> perhaps I should try again
17:42:57 <ais523> the main problem was that it had a tendency to break websites
17:43:00 <oklopol> white background sucks ass
17:43:15 <ais523> oklopol: so basically, I go on the basis that most websites have light-colored backgrounds
17:43:25 <ais523> so I set the window manager to display the browser in inverse video
17:43:32 <ais523> and that works in most cases, while still letting me tell colors apart
17:43:40 <oklopol> so you prefer white on black?
17:43:46 <ais523> but if I find a page with a dark background, suddenly my eyes hurt
17:43:49 <ais523> oklopol: at night I do
17:43:56 <ais523> trying to keep the light volume from the screen down
17:44:40 <ais523> the nice thing about that is it also works on images
17:45:11 <ais523> which typically have the same color balance
17:45:24 <ais523> (I think that at this point, elliott has given up reading the conversation in disbelief)
17:45:50 <oklopol> elliott once made me a white on black theme for windows
17:45:52 <elliott> unfortunately I have yet to summon the willpower
17:47:23 <ais523> elliott: has it not crossed your mind that sometimes information on the Internet is wrong (mostly accidentally)?
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17:48:18 <oklopol> in math stuff, that doesn't really matter at least
17:48:27 <oklopol> and otherwise, so what, people can be wrong too
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17:48:47 <elliott> ais523: happily I *have* found the willpower to not get involved in it again
17:49:06 <shachaf> POLL: How do you pronounce the last four letters of "counterfeit"?
17:49:48 <shachaf> You both cheated off elliott.
17:49:57 <ais523> oklopol: no, it just took a little longer for me to type
17:52:18 <Gregor> After getting glasses, I decided to get a copy of my actual prescription. When all of the numbers on your optical prescription have magnitude less than 1, you probably don't REALLY need glasses.
17:53:15 <oklopol> i don't get why people get glasses, why not just, you know, *see well*?
17:53:15 <ais523> Gregor: apparently with some sort of eye imperfections, wearing glasses can help prevent them getting worse
17:53:25 <ais523> because the eye tries to correct over time but corrects in the wrong direction
17:53:35 <ais523> and they stay steady if you're using glasses to correct it
17:54:04 <shachaf> Can you wear superglasses that make your eye correct in the right direction?
17:54:11 <Gregor> ais523: That's more-or-less what the optometrist suggested. I get really bad eyestrain, and she said that if I get glasses to do a minor correction in situations that cause eyestrain, my eyes won't get worse as fast.
17:54:36 <ais523> shachaf: no, they tried that for years before realising it didn't work
17:55:15 <shachaf> Should I see _The Coast of Utopia_?
17:55:28 <shachaf> In particular _Shipwreck_ and _Voyage_.
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18:35:03 * impomatic wonders what the average life of an email address is...
18:35:23 -!- Bike has joined.
18:36:02 <ais523> impomatic: does the address have to be used by a human? that'd increase it quite a lot
18:36:14 <ais523> I imagine the vast proportion of email addresses are temporary creations by spambots
18:36:22 <impomatic> I emailed 28 people using an address from 10 years ago. 24 have bounced.
18:36:55 <impomatic> I'm trying to contact a few old Core War players for my history thing :-)
18:41:27 -!- geekychair has joined.
18:41:55 <zzo38> Do you know better what thing would need to be done to make Verilog programs to work on a different FPGA?
18:42:04 <HackEgo> geekychair: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:42:06 <elliott> geekychair: important question: are you a chair irl
18:42:59 <elliott> some people are only chairs after 7 pm
18:43:14 <Fiora> are you like, a spinny chair or the kind that just sits boringly in place
18:43:42 <elliott> wow Fiora don't be mean to chairs just because they don't move
18:43:57 <Bike> indeed still chairs are an important part of the chair ecosystems.
18:44:04 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/f4f5780fa5d95698d24ee91c0998a58c/tumblr_mg8p8yNukO1r2yrc9o1_250.gif that said
18:44:06 <Fiora> but the ones that don't move are boring and you can't put them at the right height!
18:44:22 <elliott> um they're at the right height for very special people (people who are the same height as them)
18:44:22 <Fiora> I don't know where I'm going with this
18:44:25 <elliott> it's like finding a soulmate
18:44:33 <Bike> that sounds like heightism fiora
18:44:34 <elliott> you can't get that kind of connection from an adjustable chair!!
18:44:57 <Fiora> (I am actually in tears laughing)
18:45:29 <elliott> it's ok Fiora. somewhere out there is a chair who will comfort you.
18:45:34 <ais523> wow, you managed to go for that long making names based on someone's nick? for shame
18:46:16 <Fiora> ais523: elliott is talented
18:46:26 <Fiora> he should be the chair of the joke committee
18:46:32 <Bike> have you not been here while i've been a bicycle (i am always a bicycle)
18:46:34 <ais523> how's Lymia's evolver getting on?
18:46:35 <Fiora> though I worry that this particular one is on its last legs
18:46:41 <Bike> why, yes, i'm some kind of washingSTONian
18:46:52 <shachaf> Bike: sometimes you're a Bike........ or a Bicyclidine........................................................
18:47:04 <ais523> geekychair: mostly we talk about entire countries rather than individual states
18:47:05 <elliott> Fiora: unfortunately oerjan rules the joke committee with an iron fist.
18:47:06 <shachaf> geekychair: I am in WA but only until next week.
18:47:13 <elliott> (he lost his regular fist in a tragic pun accident)
18:47:19 <zzo38> How can you be a chair after 7 PM? Is that your job?
18:47:36 <Fiora> elliott: that's...
18:47:37 <Bike> Some people have to take the night shift, yes.
18:47:49 -!- elliott has left ("no").
18:47:52 * Bike chokes on breakfast
18:48:09 <Fiora> :< I scared him off
18:48:15 <ais523> Fiora: that's pretty impressive :)
18:48:26 <zzo38> What did you eat for breakfast? Tea of choking?
18:48:28 <ais523> I think people aren't used to /good/ puns, they happen so rarely
18:49:14 -!- elliott has joined.
18:49:14 <Bike> ?? people live in olympia?
18:49:14 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Unknown command: ""
18:49:14 <Fiora> I think that one was pretty awful though <.<
18:49:19 <Bike> thanks lambdabot.
18:49:22 <elliott> I need #esoteric on window 2
18:49:27 <elliott> or all my window numbering gets messed up
18:49:28 <Bike> zzo38: Tea's gross. Milk of choking.
18:49:35 <ais523> elliott: do you have a window reorder command?
18:49:39 <shachaf> I,I The beauty of the pun is in the Oy of the beholder.
18:49:43 <ais523> it's alt-shift-left/alt-shift-right in Konversatoin
18:49:55 <elliott> but moving another window to 2 is more work than just joining #esoteric
18:50:09 <Bike> you could also just part without closing the window
18:50:19 <ais523> I thought you were complaining that you didn't have it in the right place after rejoining
18:50:21 <elliott> Fiora: it's ok but I would watch out for the joke committee in future if I were you
18:50:27 <ais523> rather than you didn't want to be here
18:50:27 <elliott> I have friends in high places
18:50:39 <ais523> can we try to be ontopic with new people around, at least?
18:50:41 <Fiora> are they really in high places or are they just on high chairs
18:50:41 <ais523> or is that impossible?
18:50:53 <zzo38> ais523: You can try, but sometimes it is impossible.
18:51:00 <Bike> OK, geekychair. Present your brainfuck derivative.
18:51:06 <elliott> ais523: -!- Topic for #esoteric: The harmonic mean welcoming channel on Freenode. You have been warned. | <Taneb> #esoteric is supposed to be about esoteric programming languages, but is really a couple of dozen people being weird | Newsflash: fungot has been writing spam for money. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
18:51:07 <fungot> elliott: they should point out that my flatmate was 24 or so at source codes of programs
18:51:09 <ais523> shachaf: I mentioned this to you earlier
18:51:15 <elliott> ais523: looks like we're acting in accordance of the second clause of the topic right now
18:51:20 <ais523> although the /topic is more meaningful than normal
18:51:23 <zzo38> Even people with esolang don't always brainfuck derivatives, at least!
18:51:37 <ais523> actually, I'm going to agree with zzo38 on this
18:51:37 <zzo38> ais523: The meaningful part is the last part.
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18:51:48 <ais523> zzo38: about the logs? or about fungot?
18:51:48 <olsner> has fungot actually made money from spam?
18:51:48 <fungot> olsner: welcome back rotty, you have
18:51:49 <fungot> ais523: i would use something like s3, if you want
18:52:02 <olsner> fungot: I most certainly have not
18:52:03 <fungot> olsner: a strong typed language is because the syntax is defined in.
18:52:10 <zzo38> ais523: Yes I mean the last part, which is the URL of logs.
18:52:31 <Fiora> or maybe they're in high places because they're tall
18:52:37 <ais523> I guess the logs are a good way to check what the topic is, if you're willing to spend a lot of time reading them
18:52:39 <Fiora> so elliott has an army of tall people
18:53:04 <elliott> Fiora: now you're disclosing our trade secrets?
18:53:15 <shachaf> Maybe they're in high places because elliott left adjoint somewhere.
18:53:16 <elliott> you'd better watch out!!!!
18:53:44 * Fiora looks around the room
18:53:50 <Fiora> looks like an army of tall people ot me
18:53:51 <zzo38> geekychair: Well, do you like esoteric programming, or any of the other stuff we do in here such as mathematics and other strange things?
18:53:52 <elliott> no everybody stop. I need a second to cope with shachaf.
18:54:03 <ais523> elliott: second as in time, or a second person?
18:54:03 <Fiora> geekychair: sorry. this place kind of gets really silly sometimes
18:54:17 <zzo38> At least you should learn esoteric programming if you are in this channel, even if you have other stuff to discuss instead. It can help, to understand, in order to help this channel.
18:54:20 <shachaf> Fiora: Only when you're around.
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18:54:21 <ais523> geekychair: the channel's basically about esoteric programming languages, brainfuck and underload and the like
18:54:26 <ais523> most of the time it talks about other things though
18:54:26 <Fiora> that's not true >_<
18:54:44 <ais523> shachaf: yeah, that seems a pretty baseless accusation out of nowhere
18:54:45 <shachaf> Fiora: We're boringly on-topic when you leave.
18:55:01 <ais523> I wonder if fractals are TC, and what that would mean
18:55:05 <elliott> actually, #esoteric only exists while Fiora is in it. we are a figment of her imagination.
18:55:23 <Bike> ais523: pretty sure compositions of analytic functions could be TC easily, at least
18:55:24 <Fiora> shachaf: but my client idles in here... so I can see your silliness when I'm gone!
18:55:29 <elliott> did you really believe ais523 is a real person?
18:55:35 <zzo38> geekychair: What fractals? Do you have anything to say about them more specifically, or question/comment, etc?
18:56:10 <shachaf> ais523: No, it's obviously a lie, hinting toward elliott's interpretation of the world.
18:56:33 <ais523> shachaf: it's just not really helping discussion
18:56:45 <ais523> randomly insisting on doing things with the bot, then insulting people, isn't really productive
18:56:50 <ais523> (those are at separate times)
18:57:15 <ais523> shachaf: yeah, you basically accused Fiora of singlehandedly ruining the channel
18:57:31 <zzo38> geekychair: Is there a specific fractal you have things to write about it?
18:57:32 <shachaf> "really silly" is not a negative attribute of the channel!
18:57:51 <ais523> geekychair: basically the idea is that fractals are generated from reasonably simple rules, which give self-similarity
18:57:52 <shachaf> I didn't think Fiora meant it as such and I certainly didn't.
18:58:09 <ais523> i.e. a subset of the fractal is similar (or identical) to a scaled-down version of the entire fractal
18:58:56 <ais523> actually, one of my favourite things to do with fractals is to do the equations with mere double-precision floating point numbers
18:59:04 <ais523> then zoom in on the rounding errors
18:59:12 <ais523> they often look like distorted versions of the originals
18:59:21 <oklopol> fractal usually means non-integral hausdorff dimension, self-similar is what the layman's fractals are called.
18:59:50 <ais523> oklopol: you can get fractals which have an integer dimension, just the wrong integer
18:59:52 <Fiora> the Julia set has a hausdorff dimension of 2 though right?
18:59:58 <geekychair> I'm awaiting hate mail on my pro-animal testing tumblr post.
19:00:39 <elliott> thanks for letting us know
19:00:44 <ais523> Fiora: I didn't know that but I can believe it
19:01:07 <ais523> geekychair: I think part of the problem in the whole animal testing debate is a failure to define the problem
19:01:07 <zzo38> geekychair: Well, I am not going to send you any mail, but if you say, animal testing, you must say, what are you testing? This is an important question too.
19:01:54 <Fiora> I think animal testing is cruel
19:01:58 <elliott> did you just join an esolangs channel to promote your blog
19:02:01 <Fiora> we already subject humans to so many tests throughout school
19:02:09 <Fiora> do we need to make animals take standardized tests too?
19:02:12 <zzo38> Fiora: Yes, I think so too. However it isn't that simple!
19:02:22 <zzo38> (as in, animal testing is cruel)
19:02:28 <Fiora> like, gosh. should mice have to sit through an SAT? that's mean!
19:02:40 <Fiora> at least give them cheese!
19:02:43 <oklopol> aren't there julia sets for pretty much all complex functions and dimensions vary
19:03:19 <ais523> oklopol: I think the normal definition of "julia set" is the one constructed from a point in the mandelbrot set
19:03:19 <zzo38> I do not believe products intended for humans should be tested on animals, nor should products intended for men be tested on women.
19:03:55 <zzo38> (i.e. cruelty is not my main objection)
19:03:57 <oklopol> well wikipedia lists 1.0812
19:04:09 <oklopol> i guess that rounds up to 2
19:04:11 <Bike> Fiora: now that you put it that way i'm realizing the standard classical conditioning procedure is weirdly like a standardized test...
19:04:59 <zzo38> Bike: I suppose some kinds of tests are.
19:06:16 <zzo38> Still, regardless of whether or not you agree with me, I do believe in freedom of speech and think you should write what you want to write even if everyone hates it, but other people should be allowed to reply, too. I do not intend to stop you from writing such things.
19:06:26 <Fiora> Bike: sorry I was just being incredibly silly <.<
19:16:17 <zzo38> I have asked here before, about the product of the exponents of a polynomial. This is because I was trying to figure out the cardinality of types having forall, such as (forall x. f x -> x)
19:16:36 <elliott> zzo38: forall corresponds to product
19:17:08 <elliott> in a dependently typed language, |forall (x:A), B x| = product (x in A) |B x|
19:17:25 <elliott> (similarly |exists (x:A), B x| = sum (x in A) |B x|)
19:17:42 <elliott> (and (A -> B) is just (forall (_:A), B))
19:18:07 <zzo38> elliott: But what in Haskell?
19:19:14 <geekychair> Ok, I'm trying to work out what would it be like inside a warp bubble; I'm working on a novel and want a more realistic feel.
19:19:49 <zzo38> geekychair: Good question; I don't know either. What novel is that?
19:20:50 <Bike> geekychair turns out to be a time-displaced anderson
19:21:13 <zzo38> I don't know if anyone would really know the answer to your question.
19:21:21 <HackEgo> geekychair: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:21:32 <ais523> geekychair: the problem with warp bubbles is that they can't stop (at least without destroying large swatches of the universe in front of them, and probably not even then either)
19:22:06 <Fiora> they also need exotic matter, right?
19:22:46 <ais523> I'm not sure on the details
19:23:06 <ais523> but if you're moving faster than light, you have no way of controlling the front of your spaceship without sending information faster than light
19:23:06 <olsner> geekychair: something like this, I imagine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPoqNeR3_UA
19:24:50 <olsner> what was it, from jupiters-mass of exotic matter down to merely a tonne or so?
19:25:09 <zzo38> I don't like this word "tonne"
19:26:55 <Bike> i assume ftl is basically like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imbxqv_5TJU
19:27:09 <Bike> or at LEAST scored by ligeti.
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19:32:43 <Phantom_Hoover> my hunch is the view from inside an alcubierre bubble just looks black...
19:35:13 <Fiora> you'd probably see the stuff in front of you at least?
19:35:28 <Fiora> with loads of relativistic beaming maybe
19:35:30 <zzo38> Fiora: I don't know if it would be visible clearly though
19:35:44 <Phantom_Hoover> there's that bubble of highly distorted space around you
19:36:09 <zzo38> It seems to me it might look like differently somewhat, since the space is different, it moves different, the geometry is different, so I don't think it would resemble ordinary spacetime.
19:36:20 <zzo38> But I don't really know.
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19:40:04 <zzo38> I cannot find the information of the Verilog simulation formats.
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20:24:29 <oerjan> admiral oklopol: good luck on getting cited
20:31:11 -!- Taneb has joined.
20:34:39 <oerjan> i see from the logs there has been some confusion about the joke committee, but i cannot be bothered to iron it out.
20:36:42 <oerjan> <geekychair> I live in weird Olympia. <-- wait, i thought US state capitals were generally too obscure to have people living in them.
20:37:32 <Taneb> I know someone who lives i Olympia
20:37:51 <Bike> oerjan: i know! it's weird.
20:38:41 <oerjan> Bike: if this continues, soon people will be saying canadian state capitals exist too!
20:39:14 <Bike> that would be really weird considering canada doesn't even have states
20:39:29 <elliott> also because canada doesn't exist?
20:39:44 <oerjan> oh they're called provinces
20:39:46 <shachaf> elliott: ummmmm it exists more than england........
20:39:48 <Bike> yes. we must work triple hard to prevent this eventuality
20:39:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/olist: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/olist: cannot execute: Permission denied
20:40:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/olist: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/olist: cannot execute: Permission denied
20:40:14 <Bike> and what a list it is
20:40:18 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo
20:40:18 <olsner> if canada doesn't have states, does that make it functional?
20:40:41 <olsner> (assuming it exists at all)
20:41:22 <oerjan> i think canada is logical. more than the us, anyway.
20:41:28 <olsner> It's imperative that Canada.
20:43:20 <Taneb> I'm beginning to get nervous/excited/something
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20:50:19 <Sgeo> I still need to get all my data off the busted HD at some point
20:50:27 <Sgeo> How many years ago did it break, I forget
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21:04:54 <impomatic> I managed to get data off a HDD from a computer that died in 2001. I still need to get data off the one which died in 1998 though :-(
21:06:00 <Sgeo> Well, that gives me hope
21:06:20 <Sgeo> `pastelogs dd if
21:07:21 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17360
21:09:52 <Sgeo> wtf is lupu511
21:10:22 <Sgeo> Oh, Puppy Linux
21:10:31 <Taneb> Can someone teach me some handy Finnish phrases
21:10:33 <Bike> wow those are some hella seds
21:10:47 <Taneb> Such as "Kill the imposter"
21:10:52 <Taneb> Sgeo, I think I remember it breaking
21:11:27 <impomatic> Taneb: "ei se ollut minun vikani" <- it wasn't my fault (always handy)
21:13:26 <impomatic> Taneb: Taneb: "kukkulalla on liian monta vampyyrit" <- there are too many vampires on the hill (also useful?)
21:15:14 <Sgeo> I don't see it on there
21:15:22 <Sgeo> The dd command that I was given to run
21:15:33 <Sgeo> I was relying on the logs to store it for me
21:19:08 <oerjan> presumably the logs crashed
21:20:11 <oerjan> does anyone else see that paste cut off at 2011-12-26.txt:16:02:07: <fizzie> E.g. here's one add if you want to b
21:21:45 * oerjan has no idea which one would be the one Sgeo wants
21:21:48 <Sgeo> Maybe fizzie stopped talking after the b
21:22:09 <oerjan> _and_ no one ever mentioned dd if again?
21:22:33 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4404
21:22:37 <olsner> someone said "don't mention dd if!" and we didn't
21:24:25 <oerjan> well that was apparently just temporary
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21:25:34 <Sgeo> I don't see it
21:28:48 <oerjan> maybe search for something related to narrow down the time period?
21:30:14 <Sgeo> Schneier is putting Facebook like buttons on his blog? Is this an April Fools joke?
21:30:36 <oerjan> <Fiora> the Julia set has a hausdorff dimension of 2 though right? <-- hm independently of the starting parameter? i recall that it's connected if the starting parameter is in the mandelbrot set and totally disconnected if not, but neither might be connected to hausdorff dimension...
21:30:41 <olsner> maybe he's phishing to prove a point?
21:32:21 <Sgeo> He's using a thing that makes you click once to get the real Facebook Like button
21:34:12 <oerjan> @tell Fiora http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fractals_by_Hausdorff_dimension has at least four different values listed for various Julia sets. 2 is one of them though.
21:35:05 <Fiora> that's actually where I read it from <.<
21:35:06 <lambdabot> Fiora: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:37:52 <olsner> non-integer dimensionality is weird ... I would like to understand it some day
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21:41:31 <oerjan> olsner: hausdorff dimension is basically noting that you can calculate the dimension of _nice_ sets such as smooth curves (1) and solid disks or squares (2) by counting how the number of balls/disks needed to cover the set grows as you let the radius of the balls/disks go to 0 - and then noticing that for weirder sets the formula can give a non-integer number.
21:42:15 <oerjan> e.g. to cover a line segment you need a number of balls inversely proportional to the radius
21:42:38 <olsner> that sounds the same as the lebesque covering dimension
21:42:48 <oerjan> or wait am i confusing the dimensions
21:43:15 <olsner> (not that I know about that, I'm just reading about that on wikipedia)
21:44:29 <oerjan> no i was remembering correctly. hm what was the lebesgue again...
21:45:48 <oerjan> ah right, that's the one we used for the research on topological measures
21:46:22 <oerjan> olsner: lebesgue covering dimension is purely topological, hausdorff dimension is very much tied to a metric space
21:47:15 <oerjan> the former only takes integer values (or infinity)
21:47:50 <oerjan> i was going to correct that to natural numbers, but then i remembered that the empty set may be the unique exception naturally considered to have l.c. dimension -1
21:47:57 <olsner> I guess the wikipedia article is trying to explain hausdorff dimension in terms of how it's different from topological dimension
21:50:37 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hausdorff_dimension&diff=546400926&oldid=543562084
21:52:26 <oerjan> oh i hardly noticed your q
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22:01:03 <oerjan> <Fiora> like, gosh. should mice have to sit through an SAT? that's mean! <-- yeah how the heck should mice be expected to solve NP-complete problems when humans cannot!
22:02:00 <Fiora> but not all SATs are NP-complete!
22:02:04 <shachaf> humans can solve NP-complete problems.......................................
22:02:27 <oerjan> shachaf: [citation needed]
22:02:48 <shachaf> oerjan: They're not very fast at it, if that's what you mean.
22:02:57 <shachaf> But they can certainly solve them.
22:02:59 <oerjan> ok, technically _no_ single SAT is NP-complete.
22:03:17 <tromp> not in their lifetime
22:03:30 <oerjan> tromp: that only gets worse for mice, though
22:03:52 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: goodnight).
22:03:55 <oerjan> maybe we should do the tests on giant turtles instead
22:04:30 <oerjan> those grey parrots are fearfully smart
22:05:00 <nooodl> aren't sudokus np-complete!
22:05:16 <Fiora> in general, but any particular instance might be solvable in polynomial time, I think?
22:05:27 <Fiora> it reminds me of one hypothesis about np-completeness
22:05:29 <oerjan> nooodl: not when limited to 9*9, no
22:05:35 <Fiora> yeah, that too <.<
22:05:53 <oerjan> Fiora: any particular instance is solvable in _constant_ time.
22:05:58 <Fiora> which is that "np-complete problems exist, but Almost All instances of them are solvable in polynomial time, and generating a Hard instance is actually in and of itself NP-complete"
22:06:04 <shachaf> oerjan: http://hpaste.org/84523
22:06:13 <Fiora> I think that was called "heuristic world" (of the 5 possible worlds the guy was proposing)
22:07:11 <oerjan> Fiora: istr one of the main ways of creating problems that are _frequently_ hard is to convert integer factorization to them - although that's not even known to be NP-complete
22:07:36 <shachaf> oerjan: Is that actually a bug?
22:07:51 <Fiora> yeah, that's one of those Weird problems, right?
22:07:57 <Fiora> the ones that are in NP but not np-complete
22:07:57 <oerjan> basically, RSA works only because you _can_ apparently make always hard problems that way
22:08:01 <Fiora> like um... graph whatever
22:08:26 <oerjan> Fiora: well it's not _known_ to be NP-complete.
22:08:31 <shachaf> graph whatever, the hardest known problem in computer science
22:08:42 <oerjan> Fiora: graph isomorphism
22:09:03 <Fiora> http://blog.computationalcomplexity.org/2004/06/impagliazzos-five-worlds.html ah, here it was
22:09:14 <shachaf> i love isomorphisms of directed graphs with a single node
22:09:22 <Fiora> Algorithmica is where P=NP
22:09:45 <Fiora> ah, the one I described was "pessiland"
22:10:00 <Fiora> where NP problems aren't just hard on average, but it's hard to construct a hard NP problem, so you can't even make one-way functions
22:10:27 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
22:10:50 -!- Bike has joined.
22:10:58 <oerjan> shachaf: except usually graphs don't allow loops...
22:11:08 <shachaf> oerjan: what did i do this time.??
22:11:24 <oerjan> shachaf: you made a somewhat hidden monoid pun
22:11:49 <olsner> oerjan: aren't graps that don't have loops just trees?
22:12:28 <shachaf> oerjan: If graphs don't usually allow loops, then why do people always specify directed *acyclicalic* graphs???????
22:12:45 <oerjan> olsner: by "loop" i mean edges from a vertex to itself, you are thinking of cycles
22:12:46 <shachaf> Bike: what's your opinion on acyclic graphs
22:12:58 <Bike> they're "pretty cool, imo"
22:13:02 <olsner> oerjan: you assume that I think at all
22:13:03 <shachaf> Cycles are allowed but loops aren't?
22:13:16 <Phantom_Hoover> <Fiora> which is that "np-complete problems exist, but Almost All instances of them are solvable in polynomial time, and generating a Hard instance is actually in and of itself NP-complete"
22:13:27 <oerjan> yes, you cannot have an edge from a vertex to itself, or more than one between vertices
22:13:30 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiver_(mathematics)
22:14:29 <shachaf> i love isomorphisms of quivers with a single node and a distinguished loop
22:14:58 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it's presumably a different meaning of Almost All
22:15:27 <Fiora> I thought almost all meant 0% of them?
22:16:16 <Fiora> so like, as the problem size increases, there's exponentially fewer hard ones relative to the total number of problems, I guess?
22:16:28 <Fiora> I don't know if that makes sense >_<
22:16:37 <Fiora> I probably didn't interpret the paper very well
22:16:55 <oerjan> Fiora: ok, the problem is that cannot be a probability in the measure theoretic sense, because the set is countable. you need to use a different notion of 0%.
22:17:25 <oerjan> presumably based on limits of frequency
22:18:49 <oerjan> (this isn't unheard of, it's the same kind of thing in the result "two random integers have pi^2/6 chance of being relatively prime." not sure i remembered that formula right.
22:19:27 <Phantom_Hoover> can you even have two uniformly distributed random integers
22:19:45 <tromp> you can have a factor p with prob 1/p
22:19:47 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: then technically there wouldn't be any hard problems by the simple definitions, since a finite number can always be baked into constants
22:20:50 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you cannot have a uniform measure-theoretic probability on the integers, period. although i recall some stuff about ultrafilters...
22:22:04 <oerjan> <shachaf> Better? <-- more in some comparative direction, anyway.
22:23:48 <zzo38> Nobody else will help me to make a Verilog program to run on Csound.
22:23:48 <oerjan> they're like points outside time and space
22:24:25 <Sgeo> "There is limited support for other devices.
22:24:25 <Sgeo> In particular, isochronous devices such as USB webcams are know not to work."
22:24:26 <fizzie> Er, I mean, disregard that, folks.
22:25:08 <oerjan> we cannot disregard the dreaded 7lastlog, fizzie
22:25:51 <Sgeo> Then again, this is for an older thing, and I don't know if XenClient Express is just XenClient 2.1 rebranded
22:25:59 <fizzie> Also I said <fizzie> E.g. here's one add if you want to buy 15 tons of hard discs. and did not cut off at b.
22:27:08 <fizzie> (I was at a dissertation afterparty, I'm not entirely sober, thus the 7lastlog.)
22:28:13 <olsner> "isochronous" sounds like a circuit or algorithm type from star trek, probably somehow related to time travel given the "chronous" part
22:28:42 <olsner> try isolating the temporal phase variance using an isochronous algorithm
22:28:49 <oerjan> isochronous programming languages such as feather and twoducks
22:29:50 <kmc> what about plesiosynchronous
22:33:02 <olsner> the name is probably half the reason it's not more popular
22:37:02 <oerjan> wait plesiosaur means "almost lizard"?
22:37:14 <olsner> I guess it comes from an attempt at rebranding a broken synchronous widget as a working plesiochronous one
22:38:26 <olsner> or "near-" ... could mean "not too long ago lizard", I guess
22:42:49 <Lymia> !bfjoust generation-2184 (((((+)*7+>-+[+])*7+>-+[(+)*7+>-+[+]])*7+>-+[((+)*7+>-+[+])*7+>-+[(+)*7+]])*7+>-+[(((+)*7+>-+[+])*7+>-+[(+)*7+])*7+])*7>-+[((((+)*7+>-+[+])*7+>-+[(+)*7+])*7+)*7+]+
22:43:00 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_generation-2184: 11.1
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22:46:48 <oerjan> olsner: i don't think the jurassic is usually described as "not too long ago".
22:48:04 <olsner> let's assume the name was given by some plesiocontemporary cavemen
22:48:55 * oerjan plesioswats olsner -----###
23:06:47 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:07:27 <Sgeo> oerjan, don't even joke about that
23:07:58 <oerjan> this is serious business
23:08:26 <Sgeo> It's up for me. But I only checked after I said not to joke about that
23:08:30 <oerjan> also, are you saying it's back up
23:08:53 <Lymia> !bfjoust i-don't-know-how-this-does-against-hill (+>(.>[]+((+)*2+)*2+)*2+[.>[(+)*2+]+((+)*2+)*2+])*2+
23:08:57 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_i-don_t-know-how-this-does-against-hill: 6.9
23:09:02 <oerjan> well i had got a page about scheduled maintenance
23:09:50 <olsner> it works now! press F5 until it goes down again
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23:10:35 * oerjan has however put reddit back in the queue
23:11:15 <olsner> oh no, do we have to teach Sgeo how to eat again?
23:11:51 <Bike> as someone who just ate i can't recommend it
23:12:59 <zzo38> What do you want to eat though?
23:13:20 <olsner> Sgeo: some sources recommend against eating, maybe you should play it safe and starve
23:13:59 <Bike> seriously bachelor food is the worst jesus
23:14:35 <olsner> if you don't like it then why do you make it?
23:15:51 <olsner> also, it's up to you to choose a better jesus if you want one ... do you like the jesus in the bible, for example? I hear he's pretty popular
23:17:05 <Phantom_Hoover> i think sgeo's still feeling crushed after soylent turned out to be rubbish
23:17:48 <Bike> it was an experiment
23:17:52 <Bike> unfortunately it succeeded
23:18:25 <elliott> im going to say what i said the first time that came around
23:18:26 <Bike> mostly salt, i think
23:18:33 <elliott> it already exists and they made me drink it for a fucking year you morons
23:18:34 <Bike> i've been unconscious for a few hours and don't remember much
23:18:49 <olsner> elliott: sounds craptastic
23:19:10 <elliott> Bike: i had an interesting year or two with the mental health care system
23:19:22 <olsner> Bike: you ate something you think was salt and you passed out for a few hours?
23:19:36 <Bike> elliott: i have no idea what you are talking about
23:19:46 <elliott> Bike: the thing Phantom_Hoover is
23:20:01 <Bike> soylent? like the food?
23:20:11 <elliott> its like you dont even read hacker news!!!!!!!!!!!!
23:20:16 <Bike> "The Post-Food Man: Drink Soylent, and You May Never Have to Eat Again
23:20:37 <olsner> the thing I find worst about that whole thing is that he chose to call it soylent
23:22:53 <olsner> well, unless he made it out of [spoiler] like in the movie, then it would be an awesome name
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23:23:26 <Bike> soylent green is made of rosebud
23:23:26 <olsner> yes I did, not so sure about the seriously though
23:23:50 -!- copumpkin has joined.
23:26:17 <Sgeo> The pizza arrived, they gave the wrong thing
23:26:24 <FreeFull> soylent green is made out of soya and lentils
23:26:46 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> it already exists and they made me drink it for a fucking year you morons
23:27:03 <Bike> okay wait okay back up elliott was institutionalized?
23:27:04 <Sgeo> elliott, where can I buy some?
23:27:26 <Bike> sgeo are you seriously asking for food you'd eat in a sanitarium
23:28:23 <Sgeo> It would be convenient
23:28:59 <Sgeo> Surely stuff could be added for taste?
23:29:15 <Bike> is that like, how you think food works
23:29:19 <Phantom_Hoover> or in america do you get served 3-course haute cuisine if you can afford healthcare in the first place
23:29:24 <Bike> you get a blob of proteins and put condiments on it?
23:29:54 <Bike> uuuuugh that's what i just ate
23:30:10 <Bike> yes it had salt
23:30:16 <Bike> 33% of my daily intake of salt
23:30:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: not really
23:30:30 <Sgeo> I used to like garlic salt, but haven't tried it in a while
23:30:33 <Bike> oh my god that's almost a gram of salt.
23:30:42 <Bike> why did i eat this
23:30:46 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, remind me, were they feeding you that stuff exclusively
23:30:46 <Sgeo> So garlic salt + liquid food = profit?
23:30:49 <elliott> Sgeo: i'm sure they prescribe it in america
23:30:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: no wtf i eat food jesus
23:31:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it is meant to supplement or wahtever but the same company also makes a thing for sole feeding or whatever
23:31:17 <FreeFull> Or you could just put garlic itself in
23:31:20 <elliott> christ i don't remember that much any more
23:31:36 <Sgeo> Ok, I could live with a supplement
23:31:40 <Bike> seriously though, were you institutionalized or something?
23:31:44 <Sgeo> Bike, yes he was
23:31:50 <elliott> no i wasn't, shut the hell up
23:32:00 <elliott> however they did threaten to instutitionalise me if i didn't go voluntarily
23:32:07 <elliott> "yes but they didn't have to fill out any paperwork"
23:32:09 <olsner> oh, in this episode of voyager they create two holodeck characters and watch them argue
23:32:13 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah but from what i gathered from the soylent comments the live-on-it-alone stuff is for when you are like incapable of eating normal food
23:32:29 <Bike> sounds like the sort of thing they'd force feed you in a sanitarium
23:32:34 <elliott> they let me go home on the weekends though!!!1111
23:32:41 <Sgeo> So maybe I eat like I normally do, and suppliment is in case that normal food nutrition is out of whack
23:32:57 <Sgeo> Which given that I'm me it probably is
23:33:15 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, also they didn't catch you when you smuggled a phone in! remember their kindness
23:33:35 <Bike> it would be nice if there really was an all-nutrition food. it would come in a lot of handy at the food bank
23:33:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i like how that meant i slept from like
23:33:56 <Sgeo> Wasn't the Dilburrito supposed to be an all nutrition food?
23:34:19 <Bike> Scott Adams Foods, Inc.
23:34:35 <Sgeo> Oh, it's Dilberito
23:34:37 <olsner> allnutrition ~ malnutrition
23:35:00 <Phantom_Hoover> 'all-nutrition' food is not going to work until we have a comprehensive understanding of nutrition
23:35:20 <Bike> yes, which we don't, but it would still be nice to give a magic pill to the homeless guy that came in yesterday.
23:35:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well you can probably do better than the kind of awful diets a lot of people are on
23:35:48 <Bike> instead of like, well, here are some cans of simulated corn product
23:36:18 <Sgeo> Am I allowed to be upset that the Dilberito is no longer produced?
23:36:28 <Bike> and milk developed for nuclear apocalypse conditions
23:36:47 <Bike> be upset at anything you like, man.
23:37:02 <Sgeo> When I talked to a dietician some time ago, she suggested frozen dinners
23:37:13 <Sgeo> If those are actually better for me than what I've been eating...
23:38:37 <olsner> well, that's not entirely surprising :)
23:39:02 <Bike> what the hell do you eat dude, you're kind of worrying me here
23:39:24 <Sgeo> What Phantom_Hoover said.
23:39:37 <Sgeo> The pop-tarts thing is breakfast, breakfast does tend to vary based on what's available
23:39:41 <Bike> god no wonder you don't like eating
23:39:42 <Sgeo> I do eat cereal sometimes
23:40:00 <Sgeo> Bike, I have never liked eating
23:40:21 <Bike> eating solidified paste is not the solution
23:41:20 <Sgeo> solidified paste?
23:41:30 <Phantom_Hoover> you're not going to find a magic bullet in your battle with evolution
23:41:47 <Sgeo> I do like those frozen dinner things
23:42:01 <olsner> Sgeo: you should, like, learn how to cook something
23:42:03 <Sgeo> I just need to get a better thermometer before I'm willing to touch one again though
23:42:09 <Sgeo> olsner, I know how to cook pasta!
23:42:46 <olsner> always a start! but you need more than cheese to go with it
23:43:08 <olsner> hmm, how do you use a thermometer with a frozen dinner?
23:43:11 <Sgeo> Ketchup with cheese is gross
23:43:43 <Sgeo> olsner, after microwaving the dinner, stick thermometer into meat to be sure that it was cooked properly
23:44:49 <olsner> I think frozen dinners are usually precooked, and merely need to be thawed and reheated (but it doesn't hurt to check the instructions)
23:45:04 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
23:45:44 <Phantom_Hoover> my unilateral list action appears to have been reversed
23:48:08 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:48:33 <Sgeo> olsner, the ones my dad's been getting have been saying that you need to make sure it reaches a certain temperature for safety
23:49:31 <Bike> just get a cheap cookbook and try something out
23:49:35 <Sgeo> 10 days ago shachaf fixed it with a new architecture
23:49:46 <olsner> Sgeo: there's something wrong with that whole setup
23:50:01 <Bike> like meatloaf or something! you get to knead it with your hands, it's fun
23:50:08 <olsner> I've never seen microwavable food with instructions like that
23:50:14 <Bike> as an added bonus you won't be eating congealed duck feces
23:50:28 <olsner> microwave food is made for idiots, not people who can use a thermometer
23:50:53 <Bike> yeah it's just "put this in for two minutes"
23:51:34 <olsner> could it be made for professional preparers of frozen dinners of some kind?
23:52:29 <Bike> maybe sgeo's accidentally getting food for adults
23:53:33 <Jafet> Presumably, sterilizing frozen dinners is "hard"
23:53:43 <Jafet> so it has to be recooked
23:53:49 <olsner> but they should already be sterile
23:54:01 <Jafet> even in someone's 50W oven
23:54:28 <Sgeo> Someone's angry about brownies http://baconeatingatheistjew.blogspot.com/2010/06/dear-mr-swanson.html
23:54:49 <Phantom_Hoover> isn't sterilising things these days a matter of putting them in a box and firing gamma rays at them
23:55:13 <Sgeo> WHY DOES EVERYONE ON THE PHONE THINK I'M FEMALE
23:56:13 <Bike> just speak more mannily
23:56:13 <Phantom_Hoover> if it helps i didn't think you sounded like a woman in your karaoke at all
23:56:23 <Bike> throw in a "dame" or a growl every few seconds
23:56:46 <kmc> GCC 4.8 came out, also it's written in C++ now for some reason
23:57:06 <olsner> chicken, potato, and corn, period? that's an impressively poor frozen dinner
23:57:08 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I'm sure it's somewhere
23:57:14 <kmc> but I think that means "C++ as a better C" and not "we rewrote the entire thing to use smart pointers and RAII"
23:57:24 <olsner> (if it's supposed to be eaten like that?)
23:57:27 <Sgeo> I have it on my HD
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23:57:36 <Bike> i've heard that gcc's style isn't very C anyway
23:57:56 <Jafet> As you know, GCC is written in GCCC.
23:58:02 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
23:58:02 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
23:58:36 <kmc> it has its own garbage collector for one
23:58:53 <kmc> but what doesn't
23:59:01 <Bike> "he C++ features which are not present in C -- features which are well documented in many books and many web sites -- are not an important issue." well, okay
23:59:02 <kmc> Linux kernel has a garbage collector for UNIX sockets
23:59:13 <Sgeo> Maybe garbage collection should be an OS provided service
23:59:27 <kmc> ooh GCC 4.8 has a new flag -Og which means "optimize but not in a way that fucks up debugging"
23:59:29 <Bike> I thought the firefox memory eater problem was due to continually raising the minimum buffer size and never lowering it.
23:59:33 <elliott> kmc: doesn't it just use boehm
23:59:34 <Bike> yeah i heard about -Og
23:59:51 <Bike> kind of curious how many non-numeric -Os there are going to be
00:00:09 <Bike> okay this rationale page... I can't say I get it
00:00:26 <Bike> "C++ supports cleaner code in several significant cases. C++ makes it easier to write and enforce cleaner interfaces. C++ never requires uglier code." this just seems very vague?
00:00:32 <Bike> i guess namespaces at the least must help
00:00:47 <Jafet> C++ never requires uglier code than C
00:00:54 <Jafet> because it supersets C
00:00:58 <Bike> oh, they converted away gentype though
00:01:07 <Sgeo> Let me see if I can find the frozen meal that I liked
00:01:25 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
00:01:31 <Bike> haha they'd already been doing name mangling
00:03:08 <Sgeo> I _think_ this one http://www.healthychoice.com/products/complete-meals/sesame-chicken
00:03:17 <Sgeo> I can't find instructions on it though
00:04:10 <Bike> that has literally half the sodium of that shit i ate, damn
00:04:42 <elliott> are you just made out of sodium Bike
00:04:52 <Bike> well i am right now that's for sure
00:05:02 <Sgeo> I just want to prove that these require a thermometer
00:05:06 <Bike> seriously i'm pretty sure that was more seawater than soup
00:05:40 <Bike> heh, "Asian inspired"
00:05:56 <kmc> fixed point arithemtic types for AVR
00:06:39 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
00:06:45 <Sgeo> Give me some bitter herbs too and I'd be happy
00:06:47 <Bike> i bet people who eat this stuff regularly get honest to god seawater poisoning
00:07:03 <kmc> if (__builtin_cpu_supports("popcnt")) { ... }
00:07:19 <Sgeo> What's popcnt?
00:07:20 <kmc> they added this builtin
00:07:27 <kmc> Sgeo: count the number of set bits
00:07:29 <Bike> an instruction to get the population count of a register
00:07:43 <kmc> it's the SECRET NSA INSTRUCTION THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T WANT YOU TO KNOW ABOUT
00:07:46 <Jafet> Are there as many as 50 people
00:07:51 <kmc> but actually it counts the number of set bits
00:08:02 <Sgeo> I just want to know why kmc was pointing it out
00:08:04 <Bike> I thought gcc already had a popcnt builtin though.
00:08:21 <olsner> Bike: are you in fact that salt-eating alien from star trek?
00:08:23 <olsner> (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/M-113_creature)
00:08:32 <Bike> "Water is considered the least toxic chemical compound, with a LD50 of 90 g/kg or more in rats." what a great sentence
00:08:32 <kmc> Bike: maybe, but this lets you conditionalize
00:08:37 <doesthiswork> Jafet: every channel I go to there is someone who's name a recognise
00:08:39 <kmc> my comment is not about popcnt, that's just an example
00:08:52 <kmc> i was pointing out the new __builtin_cpu_supports
00:08:55 <Bike> kmc: ohhhhh, you mean the builtin checking is newly available, not popcnt itself
00:09:18 <olsner> kmc: is it only compile-time check if the target supports it, or can it generate code for checking at runtime?
00:09:46 <Sgeo> I want my fixed pizza
00:09:57 <kmc> but possibly it will elide if the -march=... argument guarantees it?
00:10:00 <Sgeo> > let pizza = const "So good" in fix pizza
00:10:08 <Bike> I didn't know x86 had a query system like that.
00:10:22 <Jafet> cpuid and a giant table
00:10:27 <oerjan> :t ?aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
00:10:29 <lambdabot> (?aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa::t) => t
00:10:46 <kmc> many features have bits in various CPUID results
00:10:49 <Sgeo> I WANT MY PIZZa
00:10:51 <Jafet> Or more self modifying code
00:10:53 <Sgeo> Stupid caplock
00:11:02 <olsner> Sgeo: did you send it back because it was the wrong kind?
00:11:04 <kmc> you can look at the bits of Linux kernel which compute the info that goes int /proc/cpuinfo
00:11:07 <Sgeo> olsner, planning to\
00:11:13 <Sgeo> Waiting for them to arrive
00:11:35 <olsner> wait, how do you know they're going to give you the wrong pizza?
00:12:04 <Sgeo> They already gave me the wrong pizza, I'm waiting for them to come back to give me the right one
00:12:04 <Bike> the SMC on cpuid conditionalizing in linux is pretty darn neat
00:12:19 <kmc> Bike: altinstructions?
00:12:33 <kmc> yeah it's cool
00:12:38 <kmc> also the same thing for paravirt
00:14:35 <Jafet> Does that mean there are wx kernel pages
00:15:41 <kmc> well it could modify the permissions, or add a separate writeable mapping
00:15:44 <kmc> but yes probably
00:15:47 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:15:53 <Sgeo> http://www.walmart.com/ip/Healthy-Choice-Caf-Steamers-Margherita-White-Meat-Chicken-W-Angel-Hair-Pasta-Roasted-Garlic-In-Balsamic-Vinaigrette-Sauce.-Chicken/10794658#Directions
00:16:18 -!- copumpkin has joined.
00:16:18 <Sgeo> Note the instructions that state it must be cooked thoroughly
00:16:58 <Bike> that sounds like something people don't actually do
00:17:31 <Sgeo> Maybe I should find different frozen meals that don't have that requirement?
00:20:02 <olsner> looks like it's something they have to put there because it contains poultry and it's sold in the US
00:20:08 <Sgeo> I like the ones with the brownie
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00:20:38 <olsner> the only sensible thing is for them to have already cooked it to like 300 degrees in the factory before putting it in the package
00:22:20 <Sgeo> 3 frozen meals in a night isn't a bad idea, is it?
00:22:45 <pikhq_> Why, that's a great idea.
00:22:56 <Sgeo> I could use the calories >.>
00:23:20 <pikhq_> This is generally true.
00:23:40 <Bike> sgeo just, buy a cookbook or something, you're scaring me a bit.
00:23:41 <Sgeo> http://www.nbcnews.com/id/27055169/#.UUz1wp5QCeI
00:23:58 <Sgeo> "That message has been slow to catch on, despite a spate of illnesses last year from improperly microwaved frozen foods. On Sunday, the government issued a new warning urging consumers to thoroughly cook frozen chicken dinners after 32 people in 12 states were sickened with salmonella poisoning."
00:24:51 <Sgeo> I'm starting to wonder if there's a comparison between making a meal and building a computer
00:27:13 <Sgeo> Are there good cookbooks for gaining weight?
00:27:35 <Sgeo> o.O I joked about this in #reddit-buildapc and someone said there actually is a website
00:28:09 <Sgeo> I asked if there's something similar to PCPartPicker for food
00:28:29 <Bike> Sgeo: There probably are, assuming you're doing it for medical/nutrition reasons.
00:30:56 -!- md_5 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:30:56 <Sgeo> I wonder if the fact that I'm hungry right now is making me think about all this stuff
00:31:53 <olsner> accepting the wrong pizza might have solved that particular problem
00:32:35 -!- md_5 has joined.
00:38:09 <kmc> why does Sgeo have the wrong pizza
00:38:22 <olsner> he doesn't, that's the problem
00:38:34 <olsner> he has no pizza at all, if I understand the situation correctly
00:40:09 <kmc> not even a None Pizza with Left Beef?
00:40:12 <kmc> (http://www.thesneeze.com/2007/the-great-pizza-orientation-test.php)
00:40:27 <Sgeo> The good pizza's here
00:40:36 <kmc> narrowly saved from starvation once again
00:40:55 <olsner> Sgeo: btw, got a good tip for checking temperature of the food from another channel: stick a (clean) finger in the food - if it hurts it's done
00:41:00 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Have you considered eating everything?
00:41:54 <Sgeo> olsner, I did have a pizza
00:42:09 <Sgeo> Because the delivery person messed up, I assume
00:42:47 <olsner> ... and you gave it back?
00:43:28 <Sgeo> I gave it back when I got the correct pizza
00:44:01 <Bike> what constitutes an incorrect pizza
00:44:19 <Sgeo> Squares and mysterious topping
00:44:24 <olsner> I wonder what they did with the pizza they got back
00:44:31 <Bike> yeah fuck squares, i hate that guy too.
00:50:38 <Sgeo> "Half zine. Half blog. Half not good with fractions."
00:51:36 * Bike enters quote, sees "your pets are being skinned alive" in his search history
00:53:59 <olsner> the first hit is a search result page from a search that didn't find anything
00:55:02 <elliott> Bike: are your pets being skinned alive
00:56:28 <Bike> no but yours are i guess
00:57:06 <pikhq_> They are adorably asleep though.
00:58:05 <Sgeo> "I could tell for a week or so that Eddie didn't look good and was on his way out. I tried a few different things I read on the Internet but they didn't help. Possibly because those things were mostly cocktail recipes and reviews of cool apps I should download."
01:10:48 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
01:14:06 <oerjan> i'll have a Just Pizza with (GT, Pepperoni) please
01:15:33 <kmc> what about a pizzo38
01:15:35 <zzo38> When I try to run Icarus Verilog it says it cannot find something in the DLL.
01:16:17 <oerjan> kmc: i fear that may contain gopher meat
01:16:46 <kmc> how do you know gopher meat is bad
01:16:46 <oerjan> also it has plain tex without mex
01:17:12 <kmc> in crotobaltislavonia, gopher meat is considered a delicacy
01:17:58 <kmc> shachaf: you were in my twitter feed today! (Indirectly, via nullary type classes)
01:18:01 <kmc> shachaf: in EPA??
01:18:12 <kmc> that makes more sense
01:18:25 <elliott> has anyone actually used nullary typeclasses yet
01:18:28 <elliott> also do they support methods
01:18:34 <kmc> are you sure it wasn't just marijuana smoke
01:19:02 <Bike> we had a tornado here in WA yesterday
01:19:10 <kmc> are you sure it wasn't just marijuana smoke
01:19:21 <shachaf> Bike: the joke is that drugs
01:19:27 <kmc> are legal in WA now
01:19:29 <oerjan> the thing that slightly worries me about nullary typeclasses is that as configuration, they seem to have a hint of the badness of global variables
01:19:47 <Sgeo> I should learn what these nullary typeclass things are
01:20:02 <shachaf> kmc: Where in your Twitterfeed was it?
01:20:11 <kmc> shachaf: a retweet of a /r/haskell bot I think
01:20:23 <nooodl> argh what's the pronunciation of shachaf
01:20:25 <kmc> hagb4rd: "In November 2012 Washington state became one of just two states to pass by initiative the legal sale and possession of marijuana for both medical and non-medical use"
01:20:35 <Bike> i voted for it
01:20:35 <kmc> still illegal under federal law though
01:20:50 <pikhq_> I voted for the same here.
01:20:53 <hagb4rd> nice, congrats Washington!
01:21:00 <Bike> illegal more like awesomelegal
01:21:01 <kmc> 420 repeal manifestly unjust and grotesquely ineffective prohibition every day
01:21:07 <pikhq_> The other state is Colorado. Also November 2012.
01:21:09 <Sgeo> o.O did shachaf invent nullary typeclasses?
01:21:11 <shachaf> Bike: did you vote for an illegal thing
01:21:26 <shachaf> Bike: you know that's transitively illegal right
01:21:30 <kmc> Sgeo: he discovered them in the Platonic realm
01:21:39 <shachaf> "the Platonic realm" is a euphemism for ddarius
01:21:45 <hagb4rd> how can something like..illegally grow
01:22:07 <Bike> what if we had a weed that grew firearms what then huh
01:22:18 <shachaf> I used to think that "the Platonic realm" was "the plutonic realm"
01:22:25 <shachaf> Because it was things that exist on Pluto.
01:22:28 <Bike> The realm of death?
01:22:28 <elliott> Pluto is where we store all our ideas
01:22:33 <oerjan> <elliott> also do they support methods <-- the trac discussion did have that worrisome bug about the method's type not containing any of the types from the class context, but hopefully that was fixed?
01:22:33 <shachaf> (Pluto was a planet at the time.)
01:23:05 <shachaf> oerjan: I hope that was fixed.
01:23:14 <kmc> i like the idea that all of math is written down on a stone tablet on Pluto
01:23:14 <Sgeo> Oh, so they're still basically global things, meh
01:23:26 <Bike> kmc: Wasn't that basically the plot of 2001
01:23:32 <kmc> yeah kinda
01:23:47 <shachaf> oerjan: You should worry that nullary type classes are global as a special case of worrying that all type classes are global.
01:23:57 <kmc> hagb4rd: it's an amusing absurdity yes, but a lot of 'natural' things are illegal and rightfully so
01:24:02 <kmc> like murdering your neighbor and taking his land
01:24:27 <hagb4rd> right.. .wasn't there a book by leary too?
01:24:34 <kmc> so the fact that marijuana grows naturally is not ipso facto reason to legalize it
01:24:46 <kmc> but there are abundant reasons, so you don't need that one
01:25:14 <kmc> also I think growing it is not legal in WA yet
01:25:28 <kmc> you can't buy or sell or grow it, but if you happen to find some in the street then you can have it and smoke it
01:25:37 <pikhq_> Whereas in Colorado it is already entirely legal to grow it.
01:25:49 <elliott> oerjan: nullary typeclasses aren't meant to have a point.
01:25:55 <pikhq_> You can't buy or sell it, but if you have a few plants it's quite legal.
01:25:55 <elliott> I think if shachaf sees anyone using them he'll be sad.
01:26:21 <Bike> pikhq_: clearly we should set up a colorado-washington exchange
01:26:33 <kmc> Bike: interstate commerce
01:26:34 <oerjan> shachaf: except when a type class has arguments, you can at least use newtype wrapping...
01:26:36 <kmc> go directly to jail
01:26:47 <Bike> ahaha, voter turnout on the initiative was 81%, "the highest in the nation"
01:26:50 <shachaf> kmc: well so's growing it yourself
01:26:51 <kmc> though actually, growing weed in your own backyard and smoking it yourself in your house is considered interstate commerce as well
01:27:16 <pikhq_> Because somehow anything you do that can affect interstate commerce in any way is interstate commerce.
01:27:21 <pikhq_> Y'know, butterfly effecty.
01:27:26 <kmc> it's really quite an efficient system, we never need another constitutional amendment because the federal government has discovered that they're allowed to do anything they want anyway
01:27:36 <oerjan> <kmc> i like the idea that all of math is written down on a stone tablet on Pluto <-- frozen methane tablet, you mean
01:27:55 <pikhq_> Stone, methane, same thing.
01:28:03 <kmc> 420 smoke methane every day
01:28:38 <Sgeo> 'Hmmm. I have thought before that I would nice if it were somehow possible to set (global?) "default" values for implicit params, but it were still possible to explicitly override them if necessary. This almost acomplishes that, except there's no way to override the defaults.'
01:28:54 <Bike> stop it kmc you'll make me want to consider supporting states rights people
01:29:23 <Sgeo> States are people too!
01:29:36 <kmc> Bike: to be clear I'm in favor of most forms of "judicial activism", like legalizing abortion and desegregating schools
01:30:08 <kmc> the constitutional argument in Roe v. Wade is also ridiculous, but it was a necessary step
01:30:14 <Bike> and i'm not actually in favor of making miscegenation laws "an issue for the states", yes
01:30:24 <pikhq_> US legal tradition has long held that courts are lawmaking entities anyways.
01:30:26 <kmc> I think the current system of fake federalism is kinda messed up and could do with some refactoring
01:30:27 <Bike> the ninth and tenth amendments are so very weird
01:30:38 <pikhq_> (literally since day one)
01:30:50 <Bike> Not since day one, it was like... Madison v. Monroe wasn't it
01:30:58 <kmc> marbury v. madison?
01:31:04 <Sgeo> Google still asks me to take a tour of Google Reader
01:31:13 <kmc> get a screenshot
01:31:30 <Bike> So like, day... 9855.
01:31:36 <elliott> it resolves 100% of problems
01:32:11 <pikhq_> In a confusing situation, many states have a "reception statute" on the books.
01:32:29 <pikhq_> These statutes mean "English common law is $state common law, up to $date."
01:32:49 <kmc> except in louisiana where it's the Napoleanic code?
01:33:02 <olsner> shachaf: news of the nullary type classes was also retweeted by dons
01:33:25 <kmc> ok not really but they have weird French civil law there
01:33:35 <pikhq_> It's a variant of Napoleanic code.
01:34:25 <Bike> does florida use spanish colonial laws
01:34:38 <pikhq_> Oh jeeze, New York incorporated the *full set* of English laws.
01:34:52 <pikhq_> I think New York has regulations on the powers of the King.
01:34:57 <Bike> magna carta still enforced in new york
01:35:18 <Bike> guy named john straw pulled off the street, drawn, quartered
01:35:18 <pikhq_> Yes, I'm pretty sure the Magna Carta is law in New York.
01:35:44 <Bike> See elliott? We do have a king probably.
01:35:45 <kmc> I think Harvard University still enjoys some protections from eminent domain, dating back to the Massachusetts Bay Colony charter
01:35:51 <kmc> signed by King James I or whoever
01:36:37 <kmc> heh you're scottish
01:36:57 <pikhq_> I prefer His Imperial Majesty Norton I, Emperor of these United States, Protector of Mexico.
01:37:13 <Bike> «In other words, if an 'uninhabited' or 'infidel' territory is colonized by Britain, then the English law automatically applies in this territory from the moment of colonization; however if the colonized territory has a pre-existing legal system, the native law would apply (effectively a form of indirect rule) until formally superseded by the English law, through Royal Prerogative subjected to the Westminster Parliament.» good lord
01:37:18 <kmc> "No that's not Malcolm... I'm in a Scottish restaurant and a man's yelling that they've under-fried his Mars bar."
01:45:00 <kmc> yes you should
01:45:32 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: You should really MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS AND NOT DELETE PEOPLE'S LISTS.
01:45:51 <Phantom_Hoover> unfortunately it's not on the iplayer which means my only options are piracy or *shudder* dvds
01:46:33 <kmc> it's on Hulu in the US
01:46:50 <kmc> so you could watch it by proxying through some kind of Amerikabox
01:46:56 <Phantom_Hoover> i feel as though i am the victim of some terrible injustice
01:47:06 <kmc> why isn't it on iplayer anyway
01:47:25 <kmc> your tv license fee paid for this show
01:47:36 <kmc> which I enjoy for free with commercials oddly inserted
01:47:54 <Phantom_Hoover> getting fucked over by tv licensing is just part of the British Experience
01:48:06 <kmc> god save the queen
01:48:15 <kmc> anyway you can probably torrent it
01:48:39 <kmc> I got 98.6 fucking percent of Time Trumpet and then my torrent stalled
01:48:40 <Phantom_Hoover> we all got ostensibly-polite but still threatening letters from them in my halls
01:50:14 <kmc> git commit the queen
01:50:20 <kmc> but do not under any circumstance force-push her
01:50:38 <kmc> shachaf do you like my ASCII art in #cslounge or do you think it was
01:50:39 <kmc> 'too much'
01:50:40 <oerjan> can i cherry pick her?
01:50:43 <pikhq_> How's about rebasing the queen?
01:50:54 <Phantom_Hoover> informing us that we can't watch live tv in our rooms (but we can in the kitchen), unless it's on a device which isn't connected to an aerial or mains power, in which case if your parents have a licence it comes under that for some reason
01:51:53 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: What if you have a license?
01:52:09 <Phantom_Hoover> well you can watch the iplayer without a licence if it's not live
01:54:27 <shachaf> kmc: i don't care about big pastes that much but maybe its against "the house rules""????? idk
01:54:43 <shachaf> imo there should be a channel where you can paste without people getting
01:55:53 <kmc> it was only 7 lines :'(
01:56:04 <shachaf> kmc: I bet your IRCalike has better paste support.
01:56:23 <kmc> it does; it has Markdown code blocks with syntax highlighting
01:56:30 <shachaf> is there a website yet? you gotta "build the hype"
01:56:31 <kmc> and no, not generally open to the public yet
01:56:37 <kmc> no company website
01:56:45 <shachaf> are you actually working for the nsa
01:57:07 <oerjan> that's what an nsa worker would say!
01:57:14 <kmc> probably the main reason is that we don't have a final name for the company yet
01:57:21 <kmc> oerjan: yeah maybe
01:57:35 <shachaf> did you see the cryptologs there
01:57:46 <kmc> I don't actually know, I think most of them can admit that they work at NSA (if not anything else about the job)
01:57:52 <kmc> unlike CIA
01:57:57 <shachaf> fun fact: i pronounce & as @
01:58:25 <kmc> it'll be http://ampersa.nd
01:58:45 <shachaf> imo move to north dakota and secede to get your own tld
01:58:46 <kmc> the newly independent people's republic of north dakota
01:59:10 <kmc> TIL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country_codes_of_Serbia
01:59:40 <Bike> "This task, which could seem trivial, is made hugely complex by the number of countries in the world having names which begin with the letter S."
02:00:14 <Bike> way to punk those serbs!!
02:00:19 <elliott> kmc: why does mosh+irssi drop all my keystrokes
02:00:28 <elliott> so i keep typing and like half of them come out mushed together
02:01:03 <Jafet> Why do you have system freezes
02:01:04 <Bike> oh man i need to look up countrycodes for macedonia now
02:02:18 <Bike> wow it's just .mk, that's, pretty boring
02:02:57 <Jafet> > 'k' `elem` "macedonia"
02:04:48 <Bike> the russian, as you might have guessed
02:05:02 <Bike> or uh cyrillic
02:05:31 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
02:08:42 <shachaf> http://fora.tv/2012/11/22/Ole_Peters_Introducing_Irreversible_Time_in_Economics
02:11:12 <shachaf> A video someone sent me. I thought it was interesting.
02:12:42 <Bike> is this the infamous oleg?
02:12:55 <Bike> or is this guy too britishoid
02:12:59 <Bike> or... whatever
02:13:06 <kmc> the Infamous O.L.E.G.
02:13:15 <Bike> Ole is basically like Oleg.
02:13:31 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
02:13:31 <kmc> elliott: there's an open ticket about the fact that it queues input during arbitr. long disconnects
02:13:50 <elliott> oh I don't get disconnected or anything
02:14:09 <elliott> it's just my system stops working for like 10 seconds because linux is terrible and X is terrible and I have a billion chrome tabs open
02:14:17 <elliott> and then what I typed during that period comes out in a mangled mush
02:14:29 <kmc> and the same doesn't happen with ssh?
02:14:42 <elliott> (once it even changed irssi window on me and sent this mangled mush into a channel instead of a /query, presumably control code nonsense)
02:15:12 <elliott> kmc: good question. I've on to irc fver on this machine. there it goes again. I've only used mosh to irc on this server on this machine.
02:15:21 <kmc> oh well irssi has this paste detection feature which interacts poorly with Mosh
02:15:35 <kmc> if it gets a bunch of control codes all at once, it assumes it's a paste rather than legit cursor moves etc
02:16:42 <kmc> on shitty connections (or with shitty host as you observed) Mosh will end up dumping a lot of queued input all at once
02:17:07 <kmc> SSH doesn't, because the keystrokes went out as separate TCP packets, or something
02:17:25 <elliott> yeah I've had that issue too but I think it's separate
02:17:29 <elliott> like, there's no server lag in this situation
02:17:30 <kmc> Mosh just tries to state-sync the latest version of this input queue object and when it finally suceeds, there's a lot of input to send to the application
02:17:47 <kmc> if you disable irssi paste detection does it go away
02:17:49 <shachaf> kmc: is kmcirc going to use ssp
02:18:02 <Sgeo> What does paste detection do?
02:18:12 <kmc> shachaf: you mean the product i'm working on?
02:18:23 <Bike> Sgeo: it tells you "are you sure you want to paste four hundred lines into ##furry"
02:18:26 <elliott> I guess I should set up some other kind of paste protection if I am going to do that
02:18:30 <elliott> since I accidentally middle-click a lot
02:18:48 <kmc> not exactly, since it's a HTTP-based protocol
02:18:50 <kmc> with a web client
02:18:57 <kmc> no UDP for us
02:19:05 <kmc> but we're aware of the SSP design and are factoring it in
02:19:26 <elliott> how do you feel spending your time working on a glorified web app for businesses
02:19:38 <elliott> (insert various indicators of smugness here)
02:19:45 <Bike> do you even have a job
02:19:45 <kmc> what we're doing now looks a bit like Quora's LiveNode
02:19:48 <Bike> are you a welfare queen
02:20:15 <elliott> are you talking to me or kmc
02:20:56 <kmc> elliott: shrug, i took this job because of the people and not the tech
02:21:16 <elliott> kmc: "it's like quora" i'm sorry but i have to feel bad for you for saying this
02:21:28 <kmc> LiveNode is cool tech though!
02:21:52 <kmc> every bit of HTML they send you, they remember which DB queries went into it, and when any of those rows is changed, they push an update out to your browser (via HTTP long-polling)
02:22:05 <kmc> so you never need to reload a Quora page; everything on it (comments votes etc.) is kept up to date
02:23:13 <kmc> Meteor is similar except they also transparently cache parts of the DB on the client side and so some queries happen locally, and also you use the same APIs for client and server code
02:23:16 <Bike> That doesn't work if he just said "DB".
02:23:35 <kmc> after working on a realtime web app for 6 months it's abundantly clear that a framework like Meteor is needed
02:23:39 <Bike> no you shut up
02:24:00 <Bike> no you, shut up
02:24:08 <elliott> you are wrong as to the person who should be shutting up
02:24:08 <Bike> (but yeah that sounds cool kmc)
02:24:10 <kmc> (btw we know founders of Meteor and Quora so we have some clueful opinions on how they do things)
02:24:27 <elliott> (are the founders of quora as soulless as their website)
02:24:30 <elliott> imo Bike it's actually you
02:24:39 <Bike> That's just like your opinion man.
02:24:52 <kmc> I think Adam D'Angelo is not soulless
02:24:54 <kmc> maybe the others
02:24:57 <kmc> they fired that one guy
02:24:59 <Bike> OK I do have to say Quora's site is pretty, uh, i dunno.
02:25:13 <elliott> Bike: well in this case my opinion is the factual kind
02:25:15 <Bike> "Quora is your best source for knowledge. Quora aims to be the easiest place to write new content and share content from the web." like...
02:25:20 <kmc> their current policy of hiding stuff if you don't sign in is extremely annoying
02:25:29 <kmc> they're backpeddling that a little bit
02:25:39 <Bike> it's like the vaguest thing ever
02:25:46 <kmc> it's not clear that they have a business model or a clear idea of what they want to be
02:26:01 <Bike> are we at a point where that's a negative thing for startups yet
02:26:08 <kmc> depends on the stage
02:26:12 <kmc> they've been around for a while now
02:26:18 <kmc> I think it starts to look bad after years
02:26:26 <Bike> because i mean i use 'social media' sites and i'm still not sure how they could possibly make money
02:26:27 <kmc> Twitter doesn't totally have a business model but they do more or less know what they want to be
02:26:36 <elliott> it's like stack exchange with a smaller font and facebook
02:26:52 <kmc> like, it's one thing to not make money, it's another thing to not even know why people should come to your site
02:27:36 <shachaf> I go to quora.com for the exciting LiveNode® live update technology.
02:28:17 <Bike> kmc: yeah i mean, i use a few sites that boil down to "you post things and other people read them" but that doesn't seem very businessy.
02:28:50 <kmc> we have a relatively clear business model so that's good
02:28:56 <kmc> too early to actually be making money though
02:29:08 <elliott> is #esoteric going to move to kmc's chat
02:29:39 <Bike> kmc hunts down freenode staff, forces them to move to kmcirc
02:29:46 <kmc> kmccommicchat
02:30:02 <shachaf> Are you going to give us all free life licenses?
02:30:10 <kmc> comic chat crashes when I try to connect to Freenode :(
02:30:30 <shachaf> Wait, I hadn't heard of this Comic Chat thing.
02:30:41 <Sgeo> It's a Microsoft thing
02:30:52 <Bike> ?? I thought everybody here read jerkcity
02:30:52 <lambdabot> I thought everybody here read jerkcity
02:31:01 <kmc> thlambdabot
02:31:23 <shachaf> Bike: All I know is that that's "that thing kmc quotes"
02:31:38 <Sgeo> I used Comic Chat once
02:31:44 <Sgeo> When i was playing around emulating Win98
02:31:47 <Bike> it's written and produced by a sapient kmccomicchat instance, Mel Gibson.
02:32:09 <elliott> pretty sure kmc secretly writes jerkcity
02:32:48 <kmc> i kind of want to write an exploit for comic chat
02:32:58 <shachaf> I confuse jerkcity and achewood.
02:33:03 <shachaf> "those weird comics kmc reads"
02:33:03 <kmc> except that I don't know any win9x debug tools
02:33:25 <kmc> don't have it, don't know it
02:33:25 <shachaf> kmc: Doesn't ollydbg work for that?
02:33:58 <shachaf> I did a reverse engineering thing for a Windows binary for a pseudo-CTF with that.
02:34:10 <kmc> presumably Win98 has no ASLR, no NX pages, no stack protectors
02:34:16 <kmc> whose PCTF?
02:34:24 <Bike> is 'pseudo-ctf' a thing?
02:34:34 <shachaf> Um, an internal company one.
02:34:41 <kmc> super sekret
02:34:46 <kmc> shachaf who (if anyone) do you work for these days
02:36:27 <shachaf> But the plan is probably to change that once I get back to CA?
02:40:35 <kmc> where do you want to work?
02:41:33 <kmc> shachaf: was ollydbg easy to learn?
02:43:21 <shachaf> Pretty easy for what I did, which wasn't *that* involved.
02:44:17 <shachaf> It was enough to realize that there's a lot that gdb isn't very convenient for.
02:45:34 <kmc> like what?
02:48:33 <Bike> does anyone have one of those days when they realize nine tenths of the geologic timespan had only bacteria and such as living organisms
02:48:43 <shachaf> I don't remember the details much.
02:49:05 <shachaf> For example when you're stepping through instructions and you're on a branch instruction it tells you whether the branch is going to be taken.
02:50:08 <elliott> Bike: computers are awesome (haha im lying)
02:51:06 <Bike> "Determining where Ediacaran organisms fit in the tree of life has proven challenging; it is not even established that they were animals, with suggestions that they were lichens (fungus-alga symbionts), algae, protists known as foraminifera, fungi or microbial colonies, to hypothetical intermediates between plants and animals" like
02:51:21 <kmc> Bike: today I was wigging out about the fact that language and human civilization have existed for only the blink of an eye in evolutionary timescale
02:51:42 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cyclomedusa_2.png i bet this is a photo of a rarely preserved elliott
02:51:46 <elliott> kmc: were you on... the drugs
02:52:04 <shachaf> how about the fact that oil will only have existed for the blink of an eye
02:52:25 <shachaf> well, existed and used by humans
02:52:25 <Bike> oh snap gettin' political!!
02:53:09 <shachaf> Someone renewed shachaf.com :-(
02:53:09 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Charnia.png seriously though, the hell is this stuff.
02:53:17 <Bike> That's like, your grandpa or something.
02:53:33 <Bike> bonus: this isn't a plant.
02:53:48 <kmc> bacteria -> apes, 3,600,000,000 years
02:53:49 <elliott> Bike: i can't open you pictures because my computer is terrible
02:53:53 <kmc> apes -> rocketships, the internet: 100,000 years
02:54:11 <Bike> elliott: Basically picture sitting on a rock and that's it. It's your butt.
02:54:45 <Jafet> simulated reality sex: eternity
02:54:45 <kmc> elliott: no i wasn't although I had just woken up
02:54:51 <Bike> Your six hundred million year old butt
02:54:59 <kmc> if you want a picture of the future, imagine a boob slapping a human face, forever
02:55:13 <Jafet> Or until heat death, if you know what I mean
02:55:26 <kmc> homo sapiens: great ape or greatest ape?
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02:55:55 <zzo38> kmc: Those aren't the only two possibilities! (But it is a few)
02:56:18 <Bike> They're pretty good as apes go, imo
02:56:53 <zzo38> Humans are homo sapiens sapiens, though; not homo sapiens. Isn't it?
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02:57:17 <Bike> We fit in Homo sapiens too.
02:57:26 <Bike> It's the magic of hierarchical classifications.
02:58:07 <kmc> bbl though, i must cuddle with a fellow ape and watch televised entertainments concerning a group of apes who attend a, 'community college'
02:58:52 <zzo38> At first, I don't think human is ape, until someone told me what is the definition of "ape", and then it seem to me that actually human is ape.
02:58:52 <Bike> shachaf: My genera was actually discovered by Hermann Buttmeister, so technically it's "Buttmeister sapiens".
02:59:03 <elliott> kmc: just distract yourself from working at quora
02:59:19 <Bike> Oh, that was Community.
02:59:46 <elliott> copumpkin: he works at fake plastic imitation of quora
02:59:47 <kmc> no I work at a tiny startup in Central Square, Cambridge which lacks a permanent name
02:59:53 <kmc> it's not quora at all :'(
02:59:59 <elliott> it's the ms comic chat version of quora
03:00:11 <kmc> It's like a MS COMIC CHAT for QUORA!
03:00:24 <Bike> fuck, i'd invest in that
03:00:44 <copumpkin> kmc: you don't sound very enthusiastic about it
03:01:03 <kmc> yeah Community started up again last month or so
03:01:11 <kmc> the show-runner got fired and so it's Not The Same
03:01:12 <Bike> he's probably just unenthusiastic about it here vis a vis his not cuddlmunitying.
03:01:15 <kmc> but still pretty good
03:01:44 <kmc> and I sound un-excited just because the product isn't something likely to excite people here
03:01:56 <kmc> it's a realtime communication tool (i.e. 'chat') for businesses
03:01:58 <Bike> why it hardly involves sum types at all
03:02:04 <kmc> with a user experience based on Zephyr
03:02:06 <kmc> yeah what Bike said
03:02:11 <kmc> got to go tho for reals, back later
03:02:20 <elliott> uh kmc I'm pretty sure you'll find the reals don't exist
03:02:20 <shachaf> i want a zephyr account :'(
03:02:24 <copumpkin> kmc: omg is it better than MICROSOFT LYNC
03:02:25 <elliott> try: "got to go tho for naturals"
03:02:34 <shachaf> copumpkin: how do i get a zephyr account!!
03:02:37 <zzo38> I think IRC is better for chat, not HTML, isn't it?
03:02:38 <Bike> Gotta go for computable reals
03:02:44 <Bike> zzo38: http, not html
03:02:52 <Bike> well that's what i gathered anyway.
03:02:53 <zzo38> Well, not HTTP either.
03:03:03 <Bike> IRC and HTML aren't comparable obv.
03:03:31 <zzo38> SMTP is no good for chat either, because it is for electronic mail, instead.
03:04:26 <zzo38> http://principiadiscordia.com/memebombs/kwotes.pl?action=list&o=date
03:04:36 <shachaf> IRC is better for chat than for HTML.
03:04:45 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, that too.
03:04:56 <Bike> I swear those seemed better when I was 14.
03:05:48 <zzo38> What seem better when you are 14?
03:06:21 <zzo38> Try &so=reverse and see if it work better, then.
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03:17:43 <elliott> Bike: what is a memebomb. i cannot click links.
03:20:59 <shachaf> Well, you've heard of a bomb, yeah?
03:22:49 <shachaf> Well, this is like a meme one.
03:23:40 <zzo38> I can copy the text in case you cannot access it.
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03:41:36 <kmc> copumpkin: I have no idea what Lync is, so, probably yes
03:42:26 <kmc> zzo38: the benefit of a web app is that anyone can start using it instantly, and you can distribute updates instantly without the user knowing
03:42:38 <kmc> both of which are pretty important when you're trying to build a business quickly
03:43:05 <zzo38> kmc: Well, you still need an internet connection and a compatible web browser, and they might not want updates without knowning.
03:43:26 <kmc> once you have a web app then you are sort of stuck with HTTP for the protocol, and it's not the best for chat, but it's workable
03:44:17 <kmc> but we have an API and there will be other clients and an IRC or XMPP bridge would not be impossible
03:44:35 <kmc> people warned us in the strongest possible terms not to base our thing on XMPP, because it's shit
03:44:52 <zzo38> I agree XMPP is no good; IRC is much better.
03:45:19 <zzo38> #5249: I don't want to believe this statement. #5248: I want this statement to be false. #5247: I'm a creationist; I refuse to believe that I could have evolved from man. #5246: The meaning of life is [DATA EXPUNGED]. #5245: Laugh at this sentence, please. #5244: You are the voice in your head. #5243: we take the naps we think we deserve. #5422: How can you be paranoid, knowing that that's exactly what they want?
03:45:55 <Bike> what's shit about XMPP out of curiosity
03:46:02 <kmc> i don't know
03:46:04 <Bike> especially compared to IRC which is pretty i dunno
03:46:08 <kmc> but everyone who knows the protocol hates it
03:46:32 <kmc> our API is like an order of magnitude simpler than either
03:46:42 <kmc> assuming you have a working HTTPS client library
03:46:46 <Bike> no RPC_WEBSITE i assume
03:47:07 <kmc> it's especially simple if you just want to send one message, which is what people need for their buildbot integration or whatever
03:47:17 <kmc> anyway time for more TV, back later
03:47:42 <elliott> i'll yell at kmc thru irc<->kmchat bridge 4 sure
03:48:03 <elliott> kmc: btw aren't you competing with 37signals
03:48:32 <zzo38> Which one is better?
03:54:47 <Sgeo> Oh hey someone's making their own chat protocol?
03:55:41 <zzo38> Sgeo: Actually it is HTTPS, I think, seems to be what they are saying?
03:55:52 <Sgeo> elliott, remember Sine? Years ago some Siners made their own chat protocol
03:55:57 <Sgeo> Don't know what happened with it
03:58:06 <zzo38> #5241: if you take everything out of the inside you end making a new inside #5240: Follow ME - I'll be right behind you #5239: They promised me fiery doom, but all i ever got was this lukewarm failure #5238: Doesn't this all seem a bit weird to you? #5237: love to see it happen #5236: I promise... Or not.. Or do... Whatever.
03:58:09 <Bike> elliott: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistaken_Point,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador so i decided to link you to weird subarctic names i find
03:58:16 <zzo38> Some of these have question mark. Can you answer any of these questions please?
03:58:39 <zzo38> (Specifically, #5242 and #5238, for example)
03:58:48 <Bike> I don't, and yes.
04:00:04 <zzo38> #5235: "You wish to fight the darkness? You want to try to eradicate the very thing that comes after light? The being that never leaves? The essence that hides all evil? Are you stupid?" - Foxius #5234: If there's an almighty god who's not a failure, the one you've been hearing about could only be an impostor. But that only makes sense if you're sane, and as saint paul amply demonstrated, sanity is overrated.
04:00:16 <zzo38> There are more question, even more than one per text!
04:01:19 <Sgeo> Is your response to this question a negative response?
04:01:42 <Bike> No, n/a, not a question, no, yes and no.
04:01:53 <zzo38> Sgeo: Does another question count, such as: Who knows?
04:02:50 <Bike> Trogool knows.
04:03:12 <zzo38> Bike: Do you know that you lose due to it not being a question?
04:03:31 <kmc> zzo38: yes, it runs over HTTPS. it also runs over TCP, IP, and IEEE 802
04:04:04 <zzo38> #5233: Poking shit with a stick accomplishes nothing, except makes it smell even worse. #5232: It is better to learn to embrace the darkness than to waste electricity turning on all the lights and making them explode. #5231: Please save the monsters who are getting killed
04:04:20 <elliott> kmc: are you enjoying this alternating tv / internet arguments
04:04:23 <zzo38> I will skip #5230 because is no good, and I will skip everything else too because it is off page.
04:04:32 <elliott> what's #5230 i'm curious now
04:04:55 <kmc> elliott: yeah we're competing with them and with hipchat and with IRC and with fucking Skype and GChat which are apparently popular in the business world
04:05:02 <kmc> despite the fact that they don't work very well at all
04:05:07 <kmc> elliott: yes enjoying
04:05:20 <kmc> i couldn't watch Community because of Hulu fucking me over somehow
04:05:21 <Sgeo> kmc, what about Campfire?
04:05:25 <zzo38> elliott: Well, you have to read it by yourself if you want to, and also #5229 which it seems to be replying to, possibly.
04:05:25 <Bike> kmc: if it doesn't support ieee 752 why sould i invest in you
04:05:26 <elliott> pretty sure competing with 37signals is some kind of startup blasphemy. i bet 37signals encourage startup blasphemy in one of their books.
04:05:33 <elliott> i've never even looked at their books but i'm sure they're terrible
04:05:48 <Bike> also here's a "kmc tidbit": «The United States Federal Geographic Data Committee uses a "barred capital C" character similar to the capital letter Ukrainian Ye ‹Є› to represent the Cambrian Period.[12] The proper[13] Unicode character is U+A792 Ꞓ latin capital letter c with bar.[14]»
04:05:54 <zzo38> elliott: How much do you want to bet?
04:06:05 <Sgeo> Oh elliott mentioned them
04:06:29 <Sgeo> My group used Campfire during Senior Project
04:07:07 <zzo38> elliott: In what units?
04:07:58 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Halkieriid_sclerite_structure_300.png fuckin high res
04:10:24 * Sgeo does a dumb thing and installs Calibre on Linux
04:10:46 <Sgeo> Or not, weird packaging issues
04:11:35 <Sgeo> Bah, I need to convert a pdf to epub
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04:19:59 <kmc> Sgeo: Campfire is the 37signals product elliott referred to
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04:20:20 <kmc> 37 signals guiltied to a zegnatronic rocket society
04:20:38 <kmc> Sgeo: what did you think of Campfire
04:20:40 <Sgeo> kmc, um. Are you hooked up to horse_ebooks?
04:20:58 <shachaf> help i need my horse_ebooks fix
04:21:03 <Sgeo> It was nice having a web-accessible log
04:21:44 <kmc> Sgeo: http://www.starve.org/Stuff/frank-alone.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Chu
04:21:49 <Bike> kmc: so on the "blink of an eye" note, did you know that there was a thirty million year period where there was like one extant land lifeform and most of the oceans were anoxic
04:22:05 <elliott> Bike: that lifeform was me
04:22:06 <Bike> uh that's clearly ALPHAtronic
04:22:06 <kmc> did not know
04:22:26 <Bike> where are the zegnatrons clinton
04:22:36 <Bike> elliott: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lystrosaurus_murrayi.jpg i can believe it
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04:23:42 <Sgeo> I don't remember if I had any complaints about it
04:23:52 <Bike> "yeah i make up 95% of terrestrial fossils, but that's just, like, a side thing"
04:24:07 <Bike> ("I actually have this band...")
04:24:16 <Sgeo> Small amount of storage space, no convenient place for shared passwords
04:24:21 <Sgeo> I guess those were issues
04:24:38 <Sgeo> Hopefully the shared password thing wouldn't occur in a real business
04:24:39 <shachaf> did dinosaurs know about monoids
04:25:10 <Bike> there are some trace fossils that have led some to hypothesize a "dinosaur Abel" yes
04:25:14 <Bike> (as in abelian group)
04:25:14 <kmc> i've heard that mycorrhizal fungi had an important role in helping plants take over on land
04:25:56 <shachaf> did abel of cain and abel invent abelian groups
04:25:58 <elliott> Bike: are dinosaurs abel to do anything at all
04:26:04 <Bike> elliott: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lystrosaurus_murrayi_scale.svg also: optimal ankle-biting height
04:26:22 <kmc> also coal deposits only exists because back then there wasn't the right kind of fungus to rot dead trees
04:26:38 <kmc> now we don't get any more coal except in anoxic swamps
04:26:58 <Bike> I figue mycorrhizal fungi probably had an important role in everything, they invented internetworking man.
04:27:13 <kmc> "the mycelium, Nature's living internet"
04:27:18 <kmc> -- health product at Whole Foods
04:27:30 <elliott> nature's living internet: literally the internet
04:27:31 <Bike> pet lystrosaurus, i can dig it
04:27:43 <Bike> possibly literally?
04:27:48 <Bike> well you also probably evolved from it
04:27:55 <Bike> perhaps the lystrosaurus was within us all along.
04:27:57 <elliott> something was lost in the process, you know?
04:28:21 <Sgeo> Hmm, if an esotericer has a birthday, is it appropriate to wish the person happy birthday in the channel?
04:28:22 <shachaf> imo the Rhymenosaurus was the best
04:28:52 <Bike> HAPPY BIRTHDAY PIKHQ
04:29:01 <shachaf> Bike: thats tomorrow..........................................................................
04:29:02 <kmc> shachaf wished me a happy 9,000 days alive
04:29:24 <shachaf> 9,000 days since being born
04:29:37 <Sgeo> Happy birthday pikhq_
04:29:49 <shachaf> Sgeo pikhq_ is in Colorado
04:29:55 <lambdabot> Local time for pikhq_ is Fri Mar 22 22:29:54 2013
04:30:09 <Bike> just accounting for time dilation shachaf
04:30:31 <Sgeo> Bluh, would be nice if Facebook accounted for timezones
04:31:20 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chasmatosaurus_BW.jpg Oh man. Oh man its face. elliott this is me. (You can probably eat me.)
04:31:21 <Sgeo> Also: if my brain actually processed how pikhq_'s birthday would be 'tomorrow'
04:32:19 <elliott> Bike: that doesn't look very much like a bicycle at all
04:32:46 <Bike> Uh if you were a good reader you'd note that, like bikes, it's clearly standing on a surface.
04:32:56 <Bike> I guess that's too much for a mere therapsid to grasp though.
04:33:26 <shachaf> this is me https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lokit_(suku)
04:33:33 <elliott> i just don't understand bicycles Bike
04:34:06 <shachaf> elliott: bicycles are like unicycles with a spare wheel
04:34:27 <kmc> living in the middle ages sounds a lot better once you realize that deep frying had already been invented
04:34:44 <Bike> Hoo, that looks polyphyletic, shachaf... sorry man.
04:34:45 <shachaf> but had mars bars been invents?!
04:34:53 <kmc> as long as you're rich and can afford to eat deep fried food rather than half a dead cat that someone has shat on
04:35:03 <kmc> also nobody will give you any shit for being fat
04:35:13 <Bike> An enlightened time.
04:35:13 <kmc> and you'll probably die young whether you're fat or not
04:35:40 <Bike> What if we don't live in Europe huh
04:35:51 <elliott> Bike. europe is literally the entire world apart from america.
04:36:08 <Bike> I... don't think we have?
04:36:09 <elliott> also america didn't exist before white people got there.
04:36:30 <shachaf> before columbus invented america there was only europe
04:36:34 <Bike> Damn man, I can't argue with kant.
04:36:45 <kmc> Bike: well if you live in India then maybe you get to be king of a ditch with a stream down the middle
04:36:47 <Bike> He's like, all smart and shit.
04:36:48 <kmc> like jack shaftoe
04:36:50 <kmc> (spoiler alert)
04:37:02 <Bike> wow i actually know what that's a spoiler for?
04:37:11 <Fiora> kmc: rich, white, male, and of noble birth right
04:37:20 <shachaf> but one day i'll hear about jack shaftoe and then i'll be spoilered??
04:37:20 <kmc> yeah that's the trouble
04:37:27 <kmc> shachaf: baroque cycle hth
04:37:30 <elliott> i like how you made it into a spoiler
04:37:34 <elliott> solely by pointing out that it's a spoiler
04:37:41 <elliott> otherwise nobody would have any idea what the fuck and just ignored you and got on with life
04:37:52 <shachaf> elliott: "(spoiler alert)" was actually referring to itself.
04:38:03 <kmc> this is basically how sopiler alerts work
04:38:11 <kmc> i noticed that typo but not enough fucks were given to fix it.
04:38:13 <Bike> It's true, we went through the plot of finding out what it spoiled: itself.
04:38:20 <elliott> life strategies: call a piece of fiction spoiler alert
04:38:27 <kmc> S P O I L E R C E P T I O N
04:38:44 <kmc> elliott: that's like naming your band "Unknown Artist"
04:38:49 <shachaf> kmc: on a scale of not drunk to drunk how drunk are you
04:38:50 <Bike> Spoiler alert spoiler alert: it's actually a fairly dry explanation of racing car design
04:38:56 <kmc> shachaf: not drunk
04:39:00 <elliott> kmc: i swear to god i'm going to name something Main Page when i'm rich & famous
04:39:04 <elliott> and wikipedia will have to shut down
04:39:06 <kmc> but maybe... I should be?
04:39:09 <kmc> elliott: hahaha
04:39:14 <elliott> there is literally no way they could cope with this
04:39:17 <kmc> elliott: they'll put a disambiguation at the top
04:39:38 <Bike> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disambiguation_(disambiguation) So uh, I have bad news.
04:39:40 <kmc> that is the best idea i've heard in quite a while
04:39:41 <Fiora> ... it might not work though, yeah
04:39:49 <elliott> it isn't even like that implausible
04:39:54 <elliott> a book about newspapers could be called Main Page
04:40:42 <Bike> also they deal with illegal characters, like in the article on #9 Dream and suchlike
04:40:56 <Bike> you'd have to be subtler. name your band "the weather in london"
04:41:24 <elliott> that's just how to ensure nobody can ever find your band on google
04:41:36 <elliott> well except i am pretty sure i have searched for something named after something like super common
04:41:36 <kmc> "The newly-elected Pope Francis is set to have lunch with his predecessor, Emeritus Pope Benedict, in what is believed to be a pontifical first."
04:41:43 <elliott> and found the named-after-it thing in like three results
04:42:01 <Bike> elliott: "the weather in london" used to be wikipedia example pages' go-to for making a redlink.
04:42:13 <kmc> elliott: there's a band name Δ which is pronounced "Alt-J" because that's how you type it on a Mac.
04:42:18 <kmc> it's reasonably popular even
04:42:19 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_weather_in_London#Aaarrrgh.21 for example
04:42:24 <elliott> oh i'm sorry Bike. you know far more wikipedia trivia than me.
04:42:32 <Bike> (god do i love wikipedia talk pages)
04:42:33 <kmc> also there's !!!
04:42:36 <elliott> actually i think i did knew that but, like, forgot? because who cares?
04:42:43 <Fiora> That reminds me of um, that band what was it
04:42:46 <elliott> kmc: imo alt-j aren't very good
04:42:49 <Fiora> it's like, designed to mess with sorting systems
04:42:54 <Bike> there's a band called The Band
04:42:54 <kmc> which is often pronounced "chk chk chk" but they say you can use any repetitive noise
04:43:07 <Bike> oh isn't !!! some indie whatever
04:43:07 <kmc> Fiora: heh, yeah... I bet a lot of them trim it to the empty string
04:43:12 <kmc> first band in the list!!
04:43:17 <kmc> there's also The Band
04:43:22 <Bike> well i fucked that one up
04:43:23 <elliott> <Bike> there's a band called The Band
04:43:24 <elliott> <kmc> there's also The Band
04:43:31 <kmc> biked by my own petard
04:43:37 <Bike> elliott: we're acctually referring to two separate bands, conveniently
04:43:43 <elliott> Bike: any genre which is two genre names put together probably counts as indie whatever well enough
04:43:49 <kmc> shachaf: itt: golf
04:43:54 <Bike> yeah but i thought it involved yoni wolf somehow
04:44:49 <Sgeo> Idea: A channel that has some bot that attempts to compress every line said via a variety of schemes, and if it can make it smaller, the person who said it is muted
04:45:07 <elliott> ok i am compeltely unable to come up with evidence for a second the band
04:45:42 <Bike> Sgeo: you realize there's a scheme for any possible text that can shorten it
04:46:04 <Bike> elliott: no just search for "The Other Band" i'm telling you man
04:46:08 <Sgeo> The output is required to be ASCII
04:46:15 <Sgeo> *printable ASCII
04:46:17 <Bike> what's that matter
04:46:27 <elliott> Bike: The Other is a German horror punk band. It is considered the most prominent example of the horror punk genre in Europe.
04:46:52 <kmc> Sgeo: that's like that one xkcd channel
04:47:05 <kmc> where you get kicked for saying anything that has been said before
04:47:07 <Sgeo> kmc, it's worse than that xkcd channel. People speak English in that channel
04:47:20 <Sgeo> This would be... some sort of weird code
04:47:29 <Sgeo> That needs to be translated into something readable
04:47:49 <kmc> xkcd is kind of a shit comic now, but RM and the people around him pretty consistently have some cool ideas
04:47:54 <kmc> i should read more of what-if
04:48:09 <Bike> there's seriously no way to make a text uncompressible by any scheme though didn't you even pay attention in information theory
04:48:38 <elliott> kmc: randall munroe spoke up in #haskell when someone was using the nick xkcd earlier today
04:48:50 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sharovipteryx_BW.jpg CAWWWWW
04:48:54 <elliott> i had to restrain myself from yelling "your comic sucks now"
04:48:54 <kmc> elliott: what
04:49:11 <elliott> kmc: he's in there right now! watching. silently.
04:49:12 <kmc> now i wonder if he saw all the times I said his comic sucks in #haskell
04:49:17 <kmc> what's his nick
04:49:19 <kmc> on freenode
04:49:35 <kmc> i know a lot of people who know him personally
04:49:36 <kmc> MIT people
04:49:49 <kmc> oh god every drawing on what-if has its own title text
04:49:55 <Sgeo> Bike, er.... that makes no sense. Sure, English sentences can be encoded more efficiently than ASCII, but I'm enforcing a restriction to printable ASCII
04:49:56 <Bike> http://aram.xkcd.com/ well, okay.
04:50:04 <elliott> how long until browser UIs show whether there's title text or not
04:50:35 <Bike> Sgeo: here's my scheme you compress "This would be... some sort of weird code" into a g
04:50:43 <zzo38> elliott: Just add a plugin or whatever
04:51:31 <Bike> problem: solved
04:52:09 <elliott> Sgeo: btw doesn't your thing involve computing kolgomorov complexity
04:52:33 <shachaf> @karma+ kolmogorov # p.great
04:52:34 <Sgeo> elliott, ideally, but we assume the bot is imperfect
04:52:38 <Sgeo> It tries, but hey
04:52:44 <Bike> that assumption is boring
04:53:00 <Bike> if it's just a few schemes then you're just adapting to its schemes
04:53:26 <Bike> don't use four characters in a row because it'll runlength it or w/e/t/f
04:53:43 <elliott> i like http://what-if.xkcd.com/36/
04:53:49 <Sgeo> Probably more like "Use this encoder/decoder"
04:54:13 <Bike> the questioner pours cornstarch into a drain
04:54:13 <shachaf> i like http://www.monoids.com/
04:54:52 <Bike> I bought a ton of bitcoins back when they were a few cents each.
04:55:01 <elliott> shachaf: so you're back to liking the monoids thing.
04:56:05 <Sgeo> I need to buy cornstarch
04:57:01 <Bike> oh huh haskell is mentioned in r5rs. i keep forgetting it's older than me
04:57:50 <elliott> aw a few months younger than me
04:58:00 <elliott> i mean public release wise
04:58:25 <elliott> ok wikipedia doesn't specify a month for java & i give up
04:58:53 <Bike> Huh Wikipedia desribes Ruby as being Smalltalk with Perl syntax, haha.
04:59:13 * Sgeo prefers his Smalltalk to have Smalltalk syntax
04:59:33 <Bike> That hardly sounds very sexy sgeo.
05:00:02 <Sgeo> You know what's sexy? Any language with Tcl syntax
05:00:28 <shachaf> Transmission Control Language
05:01:10 <elliott> is there anything more irritating than programmers describing code as sexy
05:01:30 <Bike> Being irritated is unsexy.
05:01:41 <Sgeo> Technically I did not call code sexy
05:01:50 <Bike> elliott: http://www.xent.com/pipermail/fork/Week-of-Mon-20070219/044101.html
05:02:10 <elliott> Bike: no i've seen this. i don't want to see it again.
05:02:33 <shachaf> elliott: it's pretty irritating when people say "technically" imo
05:02:36 <Bike> Would you say that this is, in some fashion, like "a girl"??
05:03:06 <elliott> Bike: no look it gets better http://www.xent.com/pipermail/fork/Week-of-Mon-20070219/044106.html "BTW, beware her evil semi-look-alike: O'Caml. She's actually a he. O'Caml's a cross-dresser. But easy --- if you're into that sort of thing."
05:03:10 <elliott> PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES, GUYS?????
05:03:59 <shachaf> finally we've found something better than car analogies
05:04:08 <Bike> so this xent thing is basically the daily mail right
05:04:27 <elliott> is that a topical reference
05:04:47 <kmc> i too have opinions about the daily mail
05:05:02 <Sgeo> Something something the Daily Mail song something
05:05:03 <Bike> Yeah that chick who killed herself because some guy named Littlebottom or suchlike is series of negative exclamations
05:05:04 <kmc> Bike: you're a 90's kid?
05:05:12 <Bike> nobody remembers the 90s :'(
05:05:19 <shachaf> you're literally the oldest person in the world
05:05:20 <elliott> Bike: i mean we don't generally consider littlejohn human.
05:05:27 <kmc> "If you want a vision of the 90s, imagine a Nickelodeon Moon Shoe stamping on a human face-- forever."
05:05:40 <Bike> elliott: living in britannia sure is hard
05:05:46 <shachaf> I spent the 90s on a different continent.
05:05:54 <shachaf> I don't think there was any Nickelodeon.
05:05:55 <elliott> it's like he's on a lifelong campaign to distance himself from the notion
05:06:15 <shachaf> Bike: it's a seriously alternative continent, i doubt you've heard of it
05:06:20 <kmc> the best is that then the mail took down the article
05:06:26 <Bike> but anyway yes http://web.archive.org/web/20121221195332/http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2251347/Nathan-Uptons-wrong-body--hes-wrong-job.html sucks sucks suuuuucks
05:06:35 <elliott> kmc: it's like how when you close your eyes things disappear
05:06:45 <Bike> i'm still angry about it /even after/ hearing the daily mail song
05:07:07 <elliott> i haven't heard the daily mail song so it's probably some kind of american fabrication
05:07:21 <elliott> sorry guys, you can't hope to approach our special relationship with the daily mail
05:07:45 <Bike> It's literally a guy playing soft guitar over himself reading out Daily Mail headlines. That's the song.
05:07:46 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eBT6OSr1TI
05:08:20 <Sgeo> Bike, I assume that not all of those headlines are really from the Daily Mail
05:08:23 <elliott> well we just call that monday.
05:08:30 <elliott> Sgeo: that's a seriously unsafe assumption.
05:08:34 <elliott> for basically any set of headlines
05:08:56 <elliott> "Help to make sense of the Daily Mail’s ongoing effort to classify every inanimate object into those that cause cancer and those that prevent it." http://kill-or-cure.herokuapp.com/
05:09:05 <Sgeo> "Bears shit in woods"
05:09:14 <Sgeo> I seriously doubt that was a Daily Mail headline
05:09:27 <shachaf> Bike: Hmm, that article is pretty bad.
05:10:03 <Bike> "We're aware this video won't mean an awful lot if you've never heard of The Daily Mail, but on the plus side, you've never heard of The Daily Mail."
05:10:47 <elliott> guys I think we should be devoting our focus to my last link. because it's fantastic.
05:10:50 <shachaf> I don't really know what the Daily Mail is.
05:11:14 <elliott> shachaf: tabloid is more accurate than newspaper
05:11:28 <elliott> i mean it pretends to be respectable. but it's really not
05:12:21 <Bike> Sgeo: http://busts4justice.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/the-sun-brass-eye-charlotte-church.jpg?w=640 I don't think you "get" the Mail.
05:14:52 <Sgeo> Bike, that headline is just poorly written
05:14:56 <Sgeo> It made me think of the Axe brand
05:15:15 <kmc> so is the Daily Mail worse than FOX News
05:15:20 <Sgeo> Had to read under it to parse it
05:15:38 <Sgeo> Might as well be a line from Word Disassociation
05:15:59 <Sgeo> But that's still not as bad as "Bears Shit in Woods" would be
05:16:02 <Bike> Sgeo: Well maybe you don't know the context: The headline is about a TV show that spoofed a "paedo hunt" thing popular with e.g. the Mail, where you'd freak out about supposedly pedophiles OUR CHILDREN etc. On the left, a look at a fifteen year old's bust.
05:17:08 <Sgeo> Ah, it's the juxtaposition, ok
05:19:23 <tswett> So, elliott has started to put words together into phrases.
05:19:32 <tswett> Like "owl feet" and "owl tail".
05:19:45 <elliott> practically all I think about is owls, it's true.
05:20:33 <tswett> Today he held a calculator up to his ear and said, "Ewwo? Mama?"
05:21:12 <Bike> elliott's mama is an owl, huh.
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05:24:27 <HackEgo> meme|filter: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:25:44 <meme|filter> so neither esoteric religions, nor poor jokes about them, would be new here?
05:26:03 <tswett> It might be neat if we had more discussion of those here.
05:26:10 <Bike> I personally do like weird old religions but it's not on topic or whatever.
05:26:11 <meme|filter> ha - was poking thru freenode channel list
05:26:21 <elliott> Bike: good thing we were just talking about esoteric programming languages, right.
05:26:24 <Bike> yazidism 4 lyfe.
05:26:26 <Bike> elliott: Right!
05:26:46 <meme|filter> have you considered the benefits of integrating... say, the Vedas, into the core trunk?
05:26:47 <Bike> For god's sake yes, blike that shit.
05:27:07 <Bike> meme|filter: rigveda's way too crufty, man. shit's got like fifty million commits
05:27:52 <Bike> well, i've never read it. especially since i don't sanskrit.
05:28:05 <Bike> Mostly I know it's really old. Good religious scholarship up in here.
05:28:11 <elliott> i never sans a krit i didn't like
05:29:31 <meme|filter> anyhoo, I know jack about esoteric the language. will it help me grow as a person and develop meaningful relationships with others?
05:29:53 <Bike> You seem to be confused, so yes, it will. Forever.
05:30:11 <elliott> imagine if this channel was only about one language.
05:30:14 <elliott> maybe it'd even be on-topic then.
05:30:39 <Bike> is #haskell usually on topic, i have the impression it's mostly use and shachaf banning xkcd??
05:30:48 <Bike> you. that was supposed to be "you" but it wasn't.
05:30:57 <meme|filter> ok so I'll stop the soft troll - have fun folks!
05:31:02 -!- meme|filter has left ("Oops, I parted.").
05:31:24 <Bike> so uh. he actually thought... huh
05:33:21 <Bike> soft trolled right to sleep eh
05:34:29 <zzo38> Is "If I am drunk then I would push the wrong key by mistake" a such a bad argument that only drunk people will make?
05:34:34 <Bike> Neither do I I'm a goddamn bicycle. Nonetheless I have a duty to tell you to fucking sleep.
05:52:06 <kmc> in my experience drunk people usually attempt to do calculus as a way of demonstrating that they're not drunk
05:52:52 <kmc> at least this is the case when people are new to drinking, when the experience is entirely about either proving that no really, you're not that drunk, or about communicating that, in fact, you are so fucking drunk right now
05:53:04 <Bike> what's the experience about later
05:53:57 <kmc> what's your experience about when you're sober?
05:54:14 <Bike> Dim self-hatred and cracking jokes mostly.
05:54:20 <kmc> yeah, that goes well with booze
05:54:21 <zzo38> kmc: I have not seen such things, but maybe it is because I live at a different place. I would suppose they miss, though, like anyone drunk, isn't it?
05:54:33 <shachaf> elliott is doing enough of that for you.
05:54:45 <Bike> Do I look like elliott to you
05:54:48 <elliott> kmc: http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=391
05:54:51 <Bike> we have DISTINCT SELVES leibniz said so
05:55:09 <kmc> elliott: haha
05:55:18 <Bike> elliott: oh, that makes sense
05:55:21 <kmc> i'm pretty sure I used calculus for something useful once
05:55:26 <kmc> let's see if I can remember what it was
05:55:52 <zzo38> I have also used calculus, for a few different things
05:56:01 <kmc> drawing pretty fractals to entertain stoned people
05:56:05 <zzo38> I don't remember all of them, but I think I know some
05:56:09 <kmc> involves a lot of complex arithmetic and a bit of calculus
05:56:26 <elliott> complex arithmetic? i can't even do the simple kind
05:56:35 <Bike> Oh, I think I estimated how far someone went when they had a varying velocity, once or twice.
05:56:47 <zzo38> elliott: O, are you drunk, too?
05:56:48 <shachaf> elliott: The opposite of complex arithmetic is simplex arithmetic.
05:56:59 <Bike> simplexes are "pretty cool"
05:58:48 <Bike> Drunk and asleep.
05:58:59 <elliott> drunk and painfully awake at 6 am.
05:59:04 <elliott> actually not drunk. which probably makes it worse.
06:00:30 <elliott> clearly i should go and get drunk.
06:00:43 <Bike> possibly both at once
06:01:00 <zzo38> elliott: I disagree, but do it if you want; I don't intend to stop you, I only intend to disrecommend it.
06:01:37 <elliott> #esoteric, where a bicycle gives someone the sage advice to drink themselves to sleep at 6 am.
06:01:56 <shachaf> Bike: You're a bicycle??????????
06:02:46 <Bike> A drunk bicycle.
06:02:47 <shachaf> i forgot to mention im racist against bicycles
06:02:57 <kmc> shachaf: im 1/64 bicycle :(
06:03:38 <shachaf> kmc: now i only like you 63/64 times as much............................................
06:05:46 <kmc> good enough
06:07:19 <Sgeo> @localtime pikhq_
06:07:20 <lambdabot> Local time for pikhq_ is Sat Mar 23 00:07:19 2013
06:07:25 <Sgeo> Happy birthday pikhq_!
06:08:05 <elliott> Bike: all right im going to bed in a few minutes
06:12:18 <elliott> ok i'll wish pikhq_ a happy birthday but only on the condition that Bike admits he's not actually a bicycle.
06:13:11 <zzo38> I am not actually psychic, either. I also am not actually a television show actor, nor do I play one on television.
06:15:16 <Bike> I won't lie to you, elliott.
06:22:04 <zzo38> Is Mars-Uranus conjunction today?
06:24:17 <shachaf> Bike: plz keep being a bicycle thx
06:31:26 <zzo38> I tried to make up a part of something using Verilog; it works in my computer but I don't know if it is proper.
06:34:18 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/WJYH
06:34:35 <zzo38> It seems sprunge used to emit a space at the beginning of its reponse, and now it doesn't.
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06:40:20 <zzo38> Do you think this is a proper Verilog program?
06:40:39 <zzo38> A few things seems a bit improper to me but hopefully the optimizer would figure them out.
06:45:41 <zzo38> Do you know whether or not this is true?
06:46:21 <Bike> can't say I do.
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08:47:28 <Sgeo> Are there web-based VNC clients?
08:47:36 <Sgeo> e.g. something that might work in Chrome OS?
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08:58:30 <fizzie> There's at least one JavaScript VNC client. Probably more.
09:00:24 <fizzie> I have no idea how okayish they are w.r.t. performance and such.
09:01:10 <fizzie> I also have a vague feeling https://github.com/kanaka/noVNC is the one I ran across before.
09:01:17 <kmc> sgeo did you google chrome os vnc client
09:01:31 <kmc> note that Chrome OS can run a lot of things that aren't traditional "web pages"
09:01:50 <kmc> it can do chrome apps with native code (NaCl) components and privileged access to network etc
09:02:03 <kmc> i mean obv. you can't talk VNC protocol on port 5900 from a vanilla web page
09:02:08 <kmc> so maybe I didn't need to point that out
09:02:20 <zzo38> I think you can run local programs on Chrome OS too but you need to enable a switch, and then you can run it in the Linux command-line interface, or something like that, but first you need to change the permission, I am not exactly sure but something like it
09:04:08 <fizzie> kmc: Apparently there are VNC servers that support connecting with the WebSocket thing these days.
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09:13:06 <Sgeo> kmc, well, was thinking of talking to a server that translated... but that may be unnecessary
09:18:17 <fizzie> You can talk to any number of websocket-to-plain-TCP-connection proxy things from a web page, FWIW.
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09:50:39 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/riddles/comments/1auahj/whats_the_next_line/
09:50:50 <Sgeo> My failure at this riddle proves that I suck
09:51:58 <fizzie> How does a printer with USB connectivity only can have a "security feature" of "IP filtering"?
09:52:11 <fizzie> I guess it's a pretty effective sort of IP filter to not put a network connection in.
09:55:29 <fizzie> I don't know if it'd prove that normally, but perhaps for an #esoteric regular, given that look-and-say is like a weekly topic here? (That's pretty close.)
09:56:08 <Sgeo> It looks so much like look-and-say but isn't quite
09:56:34 <Sgeo> The fact that I failed to figure out what it actually is...
09:56:52 <Sgeo> (Obviously I could tell it wasn't vanilla look-and-say)
09:59:11 <fizzie> It's look-and-say for the kind of obsessive-compulsive person who alphabetizes books in other people's bookshelves.
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10:01:13 <Sgeo> I like this version better
10:01:22 <Sgeo> Get more variety of digits
10:02:35 <Sgeo> I should check that.
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10:06:14 <Sgeo> On the other hand, I should sleep
10:06:17 <fizzie> > iterate (read . concatMap (ap ((++) . show . length) (take 1)) . group . reverse . sort . show) 1 -- making it the sort of "real Haskell" that nobody can understand without being familiar with the latest-and-greatest high-concept libraries left as an exercise to the reader
10:06:19 <lambdabot> [1,11,21,1211,1231,131221,132231,232221,134211,14131231,14231241,24132231,1...
10:07:09 <fizzie> > take 10 . drop 100 $ iterate (read . concatMap (ap ((++) . show . length) (take 1)) . group . reverse . sort . show) 1 -- also, there's this
10:07:11 <lambdabot> [14233221,14233221,14233221,14233221,14233221,14233221,14233221,14233221,14...
10:07:18 <fizzie> (Not too much variety there.)
10:08:15 <Sgeo> You don't get 4s in vanilla look-and-say though
10:08:23 <Sgeo> Hmm, what about sorting in the other direction
10:08:38 <Sgeo> > take 10 . drop 100 $ iterate (read . concatMap (ap ((++) . show . length) (take 1)) . group . sort . show) 1
10:08:40 <lambdabot> [21322314,21322314,21322314,21322314,21322314,21322314,21322314,21322314,21...
10:13:15 <oklopol> if you say "Y is 15 meters and 140 degrees from X", what does that mean?
10:13:21 <oklopol> is there a reasonable standard?
10:20:07 <Sgeo> It means depending on number of dimensions, Y may be at one of two points, or along a circle, or maybe a sphere?
10:32:09 <fizzie> So it's 15 metres south-eastish from X.
10:36:14 <fizzie> (At least in nautical (and I understand aeronautical) use, you can say "heading X", where X is in degrees, with north as 0, east as 90, south as 180 and west as 270.)
10:39:41 <Sgeo> Hmm. Came across a language that seems like it's effectively some stuff around an IO [a] in Haskell terms
10:45:55 <lambdabot> Control.Monad liftM :: Monad m => (a1 -> r) -> m a1 -> m r
10:45:55 <lambdabot> Control.Monad liftM2 :: Monad m => (a1 -> a2 -> r) -> m a1 -> m a2 -> m r
10:45:55 <lambdabot> Control.Monad liftM3 :: Monad m => (a1 -> a2 -> a3 -> r) -> m a1 -> m a2 -> m a3 -> m r
10:47:10 <Sgeo> Blah, I know it's only 5 lines, but writing the Functor and Applicative instance for custom monads is boring
10:47:16 <Sgeo> *5 trivial lines
10:47:44 <Sgeo> @hoogle Applicative
10:47:45 <lambdabot> Control.Applicative class Functor f => Applicative f
10:47:45 <lambdabot> Control.Applicative module Control.Applicative
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10:55:45 <Sgeo> Can't tell if it's an IO [a] or an [IO a]
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15:48:10 <fizzie> Man, this spam has quite the eventful storyline: http://sprunge.us/PdjE
15:48:32 <fizzie> They poisoned him to dead! And the other woman has "eight (8) children".
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15:50:08 <fizzie> ThatOtherPerson: 2 is two, though.
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15:50:54 <fizzie> "My father was murdered two (3) months ago."
15:51:10 <Bike> i don't know what to believe
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18:17:12 <Sgeo> I should eat food
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18:46:09 <Bike> so does anyone know what the point of LIA is
18:47:06 <Bike> language-independent arithmetic
18:47:14 <Bike> apparently so called because no language actually implements it?
18:47:20 <ThatOtherPerson> Arc_Koen: I am that other person by virtue of me saying so!
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18:47:39 <ThatOtherPerson> I am also quite fine if that was the object of your inquiry
18:47:54 <Bike> "i exist quite finely"
18:49:30 <Bike> but i've read like nine language standards now that have "LIA exists but we don't conform to it" somewhere and i'm wondering what the deal is
18:49:47 <Bike> haskell, r5rs, C...
18:50:37 <Bike> losers in al-darayya
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19:33:18 <Gregor> Note to self: If you show your cat affection by kissing, she may decide to show affection by nibbling.
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19:42:14 <oerjan> <-- ole is basically danish/norwegian, oleg is basically russian. i am not sure that the names are even related. (ole is from norse ola[fv]r.)
19:42:24 <kmc> Bike: did you see that the Syrian rebels built a trebuchet based on plans from American trebuchet hobbyists
19:42:26 <oerjan> <Bike> Ole is basically like Oleg. <-- ole is basically danish/norwegian, oleg is basically russian. i am not sure that the names are even related. (ole is from norse ola[fv]r.)
19:42:41 <Bike> kmc: i've seen enough of their slingshots to believe anything
19:42:49 <kmc> also a tank with an android-powered remote control gun turret
19:42:58 <kmc> http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2013/02/diy-weapons-of-the-syrian-rebels/100461/
19:43:02 <Bike> yeah those things always pop up, i kinda doubt they actually use them though
19:43:33 <kmc> the mortar shell in #6 looks damn good, I don't see why it's considered "improvised"
19:44:18 <Bike> probably because smoking in a machine shop full of mortars is silly enough to make everything improvised
19:44:32 <kmc> this is the kind of shit we built for Ditch Day hijinx in college
19:44:41 <kmc> who knew it would be useful for fighting the government
19:44:42 <Bike> wow, that's a hell of a catapult
19:44:46 <kmc> (answer: we did, we talked about it all the time)
19:45:22 <Bike> seeing syrian ordinance now just makes me think of the far too many videos of kids playing with unexploded missiles i've seen
19:45:52 <Bike> oh, there's the PS2 picture.
19:45:52 <kmc> re smoking: hopefully they fill the explosives off-site
19:45:55 <kmc> but, probably not
19:46:17 <kmc> i was really hoping to see an arduino in one of these
19:46:25 <kmc> then they can be on hack a day
19:46:46 <kmc> ok fine http://hackaday.com/2012/12/10/homemade-tank-joins-the-battle-in-syria/
19:46:51 <Bike> man they have so damn many of those soviet AAs
19:47:09 <kmc> is that what they put in the back of that truck
19:47:32 <Bike> yeah, it's a ZU-23. there are approximately four trillion extant
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19:47:58 <kmc> also is it really wise for them to let foreign journalists take photos and videos of this stuff
19:48:14 <Bike> psh, they take their own videos
19:48:19 <kmc> well both but
19:48:31 <Bike> that said there has been something of a kerfuffle lately due to a British journalist figuring out htey got a lot of weapons from Croatia
19:48:37 <Bike> which is "legal", as i'm sure you can guess
19:51:14 <kmc> there's probably a gun somewhere in the world that fired at Nazis in 1944, Americans in 1971, Bosnians in 1993 and Syrians in 2012
19:51:38 <Bike> did you know: they used maxims from the russian civil war up through korea
19:52:22 <Bike> probably not nazis though, StG isn't really soviet ordinance
19:52:53 <Bike> well, i guess they used like biplanes in korea
19:56:18 <Bike> and then back in WWII they had those planes that were so bad the germans couldn't figure out what to do about them, etc
19:56:27 <kmc> 'Soviet aircraft were adorned with North Korean or Chinese markings and pilots wore either North Korean uniforms or civilian clothes, to disguise their origins. For radio communication, they were given cards with common Korean words for various flying terms spelled out phonetically in Cyrillic characters.[4] These subterfuges did not long survive the fury of air-to-air combat, however, and pilots were soon routinely communicating in R
19:56:39 <Bike> soon routinely communicating in R
19:56:44 <Bike> but yeah it's hard to imagine that working
19:57:14 <kmc> i like the idea of poorly pronounced Korean immediately giving way to Russian profanity on the radio
20:02:21 <kmc> ahhh gun nuts on reddit arguing about whether a 7.62x54R round will go through this improvised tank
20:02:53 <Bike> that Sham thing? somehow i think government troops have enough ordinance to kill it
20:02:58 <elliott> how did you get past "gun nuts on reddit arguing about" to actually finding out what they're arguing about
20:03:02 <kmc> http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/14ljlk/syrias_homemade_tank/
20:03:14 <fizzie> Misread "nuns on reddit arguing about whether a 7.62x54R round will go through this improvised tank".
20:03:17 <kmc> Bike: well a missile will blow it to holy living fuck
20:03:19 <Bike> also the rebels have /actual tanks/ so
20:03:35 <kmc> it's more a question of, is it good against any threat at all
20:04:22 <Bike> i imagine it probably does some good, as having pieces of metal in front of you as you stroll through shells tends to do, but there's only like two of it anyway, no?
20:05:30 <kmc> or it might just attract attention
20:05:42 <kmc> if you see three pickup trucks and this fucking thing, which one are you going to use your grenade on
20:05:46 <Bike> it's in Homs, right?
20:05:51 <kmc> i don't know where it is
20:05:51 <FreeFull> You can make a pretty effective tank if you use concrete
20:07:09 <Bike> my personal favorite syria tank tidbit might be that abkhazian interview with a gov't tank commander, who's like "well the left side armor is only held on by one bolt and sometimes falls off, but you know besides that, pretty great tank"
20:07:27 <kmc> some russian tank?
20:08:23 <Bike> things don't have air conditioning. you kinda gotta feel sorry for the operators.
20:09:00 <kmc> russians had lots of problems with tanks in urban combat in chechnya and afghanistan
20:09:02 <Bike> on the other hand they can sort of take neutron bombs. priorities!
20:09:28 <Bike> well afghanistan just has the worst terrain ever, and in chechnya they drove 'em through alleys
20:11:12 <kmc> no AC sounds really bad if you are also keeping a totally sealed interior to avoid NBC contamination
20:13:46 <Bike> i wouldn't be surprised if they opened it up some on the ground, since the chance of rebels using NBC is pretty low
20:14:21 <kmc> i meant in the hypothetical scenario it was designed for
20:14:36 <kmc> i.e. driving to West Germany at top speed after nuking the Fulda Gap
20:15:13 <Bike> but they've gotten used a lot in like iraq and syria and other not-european-climate places
20:18:20 <HackEgo> elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things? He is also tire.
20:19:13 <oerjan> `run sed -e 's/$/ And a lystrosaur.' wisdom/elliott
20:19:15 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 22: unterminated `s' command
20:19:24 <oerjan> `run sed -e 's/$/ And a lystrosaur./' wisdom/elliott
20:19:26 <HackEgo> elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things? He is also tire. And a lystrosaur.
20:19:36 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/$/ And a lystrosaur./' wisdom/elliott
20:19:50 <Bike> imo good lystrosaur
20:21:47 <oerjan> <kmc> no AC sounds really bad if you are also keeping a totally sealed interior to avoid NBC contamination <-- i think making AC work when you are keeping a totally sealed interior may be sort of expensive.
20:22:36 <kmc> tanks are sort of expensive
20:24:35 <kmc> but it's compatible with the basic design of an air conditioner
20:26:04 <kmc> you're pumping heat between two metal coils; the medium of exchange is a sealed liquid/gas and the air flow over those coils is totally separate
20:26:07 <kmc> http://www.ductpro.com/images/AC_diagram.jpg
20:28:19 <kmc> those freestanding ACs that have a tube that goes to the window are not very efficient
20:29:23 <kmc> either they're cooling air from the outside, which is hotter than the air already in your room, or they're sucking just-cooled air back out of your room to heat it up and blow it back outside
20:29:30 <kmc> you really need /two/ tubes
20:34:25 <oerjan> i think we norwegian just don't have the intuition for this because you know, outside air being hotter? what nonsense is this?
20:38:02 <kmc> and while you could heat a house in this manner, it's not that efficient
20:38:06 <kmc> compared to just burning shit
20:39:11 <oerjan> `addquote <kmc> living in the middle ages sounds a lot better once you realize that deep frying had already been invented
20:39:13 <fizzie> I wonder why ais523_anticipation.bfjoust is full of empty loops like ()*1194 and ()*1181 and so on.
20:39:15 <HackEgo> 988) <kmc> living in the middle ages sounds a lot better once you realize that deep frying had already been invented
20:39:20 <kmc> but I think it is done sometimes
20:39:36 <kmc> in climates where you need slight air conditioning half of the year and slight heating the other half
20:39:48 <kmc> and want to use the same equipment for both
20:39:51 <kmc> but I don't know the details
20:39:54 <oerjan> kmc: in norway these days, heat pumps are all the rage.
20:40:06 <kmc> do you have geothermal heating there?
20:41:12 <oerjan> the neighbor made a hell of a noise drilling down into the ground to install them a couple years ago
20:43:43 <kmc> my house has powerful HVAC, but the thermostat is downstairs and my room upstairs is consistently 10 degrees warmer in the winter and cooler in the summer
20:43:56 <kmc> so I either open the windows while the heating / AC is running, which is dumb
20:44:02 <kmc> or i have to block and unblock the vents all the time
20:44:11 <kmc> thinking of building a thermostat gadget to do the latter for me
20:45:41 <oerjan> 04:36:09: <elliott> also america didn't exist before white people got there.
20:45:41 <oerjan> 04:36:19: <elliott> it was invented a priori
20:45:51 <oerjan> i think you mean "a posteriori" hth
20:46:33 <elliott> oerjan: whats this got to do with posteriors
20:46:44 <elliott> i actually meant a priori but in retrospect it did not make any sense
20:47:09 <oerjan> elliott: if it were a priori, america _would_ have existed from the beginning duh. in fact before the rest of the universe.
20:47:55 <oerjan> elliott: also posteriors is where we are extracting this from
20:48:00 <elliott> wait since when is this about how old oerjan is
20:48:43 <oerjan> `log entirely fictitious
20:49:14 <HackEgo> 2013-03-23.txt:20:48:43: <oerjan> `log entirely fictitious
20:49:19 <oerjan> `pastlog entirely fictitious
20:49:39 <oerjan> i may have completely imagined saying that.
20:49:40 <shachaf> "All persons, living and dead, are purely coincidental."
20:50:49 <oerjan> no similes were hurt during the production of this movie.
20:51:39 <oerjan> `pastlog oerjan.*in about.*i will
20:51:55 <oerjan> yep, completely imagining
20:52:05 <elliott> in about i will entirely fictitious. --OERJAN
20:52:15 <oerjan> elliott: something like that yes
20:52:47 <oerjan> `pastelogs oerjan>.*entirely
20:53:04 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.18375
20:56:06 <oerjan> 2011-12-10.txt:13:28:44: <oerjan> <monqy> 42 is such a boring fake age <-- in about half a year i shall be entirely fake. yay!
20:57:18 <elliott> oerjan: yikes are you like 43 now
20:57:19 <oerjan> in about three months i might become real again.
20:57:40 <shachaf> oerjan: can we round you up to 50 yet
20:58:05 <oerjan> i thought fizzie had always been 30
21:00:28 <oerjan> i think i may at one time have thought that fizzie were older than me
21:01:16 <oerjan> or maybe i have through time confused fizzie with someone else who actually was, but who has left
21:02:48 <oerjan> not entirely related, but does anyone know how old cpressey is
21:04:20 <oerjan> <shachaf> before columbus invented america there was only europe <-- that is not true, marco polo invented china before that
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21:17:09 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Idea: A channel that has some bot that attempts to compress every line said via a variety of schemes, and if it can make it smaller, the person who said it is muted
21:17:56 <fizzie> There's that one place where they enforce originality by bot.
21:18:06 <oerjan> that was already mentioned in the logs
21:18:37 <oerjan> i was just going to suggest some schemes. about 256 of them, to be precise.
21:19:08 <oerjan> but then i realized my metascheme didn't quite work
21:19:24 <shachaf> How about a scheme where if you put two spaces after a '.' you're muted?
21:20:56 <oerjan> that's not funny, shachaf.
21:21:14 <shachaf> Neither is putting two spaces after a '.'.
21:21:57 <oerjan> i may have put two spaces after . since before you were born, shachaf. i suggest showing some respect
21:22:13 <shachaf> It is likely that you have.
21:52:15 <FreeFull> Sgeo: What if people write things out as multiple lines of single characters?
21:52:34 <FreeFull> fizzie: #xkcd-something or something
21:52:45 <oerjan> <kmc> oh god every drawing on what-if has its own title text <-- CURSE YOU KMC
21:59:01 <oerjan> well, i suppose kmc _might_ be lying.
21:59:08 <fizzie> oerjan: I spontaneously noticed that two what-if's ago.
21:59:21 <fizzie> The one with the hairdryer.
22:02:38 <shachaf> i suppose _FreeFull_ might be lying
22:03:08 <shachaf> I'm too used to __ing capitalised things!
22:05:24 <oerjan> <shachaf> Bike: it's a seriously alternative continent, i doubt you've heard of it <-- hipstrael?
22:07:14 <ion> and/or the incontinent
22:07:26 <oerjan> i suddenly realize that israel has no problems that wouldn't be solved by making it a continent.
22:08:35 <oerjan> well, properly, not like that europe half-hearted thing
22:08:48 <FreeFull> This smothering ocean of high-pressure meat would wipe out most life on the planet
22:09:16 <shachaf> europe is more of a peninsula imo
22:09:19 * oerjan for a moment was wondering what FreeFull's comment had to do with israel.
22:09:33 <oerjan> then i remembered the what-if.
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22:18:19 <oerjan> <elliott> do i blike <-- what is this word
22:18:51 <oerjan> good portmanteau. should find frequent use.
22:22:29 <oerjan> <kmc> in my experience drunk people usually attempt to do calculus as a way of demonstrating that they're not drunk <-- i have resembled that remark. well, actually i did it to prove i could to calculus when drunk, not to prove i wasn't drunk.
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22:23:43 <oerjan> or maybe i just did it because the party was boring and hey, calculus! it was a long time ago.
22:24:18 * oerjan maybe should clarify he is currently sober.
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22:39:21 <oerjan> <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/riddles/comments/1auahj/whats_the_next_line/
22:41:48 <oerjan> looks like a slight variation of the "pea pattern" variation mentioned on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Look-and-say_sequence#Variations
22:42:10 <oerjan> there used to be a pea pattern article, but it was merged.
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22:47:32 <kmc> it would be great to start a webcomic, let it get really popular, and then add title text to all the old strips and act like it was always there
22:48:21 <elliott> unfortunately the level you'd have to be for people to care is also the level where people will be obsessing over your html anyway
22:48:40 <shachaf> There should be a comic that uses actual alt text rather than title text.
22:49:18 <kmc> webcomic for the blind
22:49:39 <kmc> Queens of the Stone Age has an album named Songs for the Deaf
22:49:49 <kmc> unfortunately it's not just a series of extremely loud low bass rumbles
22:50:16 <nooodl> > let f = (group . reverse . sort) >=> (\x -> [length x, head x]) in iterate f [1]
22:50:18 <lambdabot> [[1],[1,1],[2,1],[1,2,1,1],[1,2,3,1],[1,3,1,2,2,1],[1,3,2,2,3,1],[2,3,2,2,2...
22:50:55 <oerjan> kmc: hey iwc has vision-impaired transcripts
22:51:22 * kmc has been learning a little bit about web accessibility
22:51:27 <elliott> a fourth of the way through
22:51:40 <kmc> http://www.slideshare.net/dreamwidth/web-accessibility-for-the-21st-century is a good slide deck about it
22:52:00 <kmc> elliott: you know dinosaur comics has at least 3 hidden thingys
22:52:56 <elliott> kmc: i only bother reading the title text one
22:52:59 <elliott> kmc: because it's too much work
22:53:08 <elliott> and the comics themselves are funny enough that I don't really care
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22:54:07 <oerjan> well Sgeo's link which i quoted
22:54:37 <oerjan> the wikipedia one doesn't have quite that particular variation
22:55:18 <oerjan> nooodl: (\x -> [length x, head x]) is sequence [length, head]
22:56:08 <nooodl> > sequence [length, head] [1,2,3,4,5]
22:56:42 <nooodl> hmm... is doing fancy list monad stuff like that generally considered readable
22:57:09 <oerjan> it's also ([length, head] ??) using the lens operator
22:57:27 <lambdabot> Monad m => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c
22:57:29 <oerjan> once upon a time caleskell flip would have worked too
22:58:49 <nooodl> from memory, f >=> g = (\x -> f x >>= g). i hope that's right
22:58:59 <elliott> oerjan: distribute works too!
22:59:02 <elliott> :t distribute [length, head]
22:59:03 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `distrib' (imported from Control.Lens)
22:59:24 <oerjan> elliott: i recall we discussed that
23:00:53 <elliott> edwardk decided against it because (??) is infix, I think
23:01:05 <elliott> you could only use it for a non-(->) instance if you applied it like ((??) foo), which is ridiculous
23:01:48 <oerjan> um (foo ??) should work perfectly well...
23:02:21 <elliott> IIRC (foo ??) is actually (\bar -> foo ?? bar)
23:02:28 <oerjan> (although that _would_ work with ghc's postfix-operators extension)
23:02:39 <elliott> I think GHC uses ((??) foo) as the semantics but types it like the latter
23:03:05 <oerjan> the extension turns off the type restriction
23:03:48 <elliott> I meant with no extensions
23:05:06 <Sgeo> Hmm, can reverse look-and-say from a random seed be interesting?
23:07:28 <oerjan> Sgeo: reversing count and digit commutes with reversing the string before and after, so you don't get anything essentially new
23:09:10 <FreeFull> "I have to say—from a dimensional analysis standpoint, ”poops” is one of the strangest units I’ve ever tried to cancel in an equation."
23:09:36 <oerjan> ordinary: 1 -> 11 -> 21 -> 1211 -> 111221; reversed: 1 -> 11 -> 12 -> 1121 -> 122111
23:09:49 <oerjan> Sgeo: or do you mean something else by reverse LAS
23:10:16 <Sgeo> I meant going from 1121 to 12
23:11:08 <Sgeo> The question is, what to do when you hit an odd number of digits. Die?
23:11:12 <oerjan> um, 1211 to 21, i assume
23:11:20 <Sgeo> Although, if there's a 0, odd number of digits could be sensible
23:11:33 <Sgeo> oerjan, erm, yeah. Was looking at the second sequence by mistake
23:13:56 <zzo38> Going from 1211 to 21 would be run length decoding, I think
23:14:07 <zzo38> Going forwards is run length encoding
23:14:49 <oerjan> zzo38: the minor problem is that those aren't inverses because of what elliott mentions
23:15:05 <oerjan> even apart from the odd length problem
23:15:07 <elliott> oh i wasn't even intending to make a point. i just did accidentally
23:15:14 <zzo38> Yes, I know, they arenot really inverse
23:17:23 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:18:12 <oerjan> Sgeo: i don't really see how 0's help
23:24:58 <oerjan> you need a rule for where to use a two-digit count, i think
23:26:21 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zwave
23:27:16 <elliott> i'm retired from spamfighting. that's ais523's job now.
23:27:27 <elliott> also, it reminds me i should be upgrading MW to make the filter he set up maybe work.
23:27:49 <elliott> ok, how about I make you a sysop and you delete it
23:28:11 <oerjan> also i don't think that message matches his filter
23:29:52 <oerjan> as i was walking back home today, i was pondering how in norway, it's sometimes safer to walk in the middle of the road than on the sidewalk. unless you are wearing glacier scaling equipment.
23:30:02 <elliott> ok i'll take that as a no then.
23:30:14 <elliott> let's see how long you can bear to see the spam stand :P
23:30:28 -!- fungot has joined.
23:30:36 <oerjan> this elliott guy uses some mean tactics
23:30:39 <fungot> fizzie: nvi is a fnord that isn't properly fnord, right? assume non-tail recursion is free?
23:30:53 <FreeFull> oerjan: obviously everyone should learn how to levitate
23:31:01 <oerjan> fungot: i wouldn't assume that if i were you
23:31:02 <fungot> oerjan: i have an acoustic and an fnord lenght of universal fnord formal language by piling on restrictions to, and starts out thus: ( ch succ zero)
23:31:20 <elliott> oerjan: and here I thought you _wanted_ world domination.
23:32:09 <Sgeo> How much does tail recursion cost?
23:32:17 <Sgeo> Who do I pay the tail recursion tax to?
23:32:28 <oerjan> well when i become world dictator, spammers won't exist any more, so spam fighting will be an irrelevant skill for me to learn.
23:32:47 <Arc_Koen> Sgeo: if you really don't know, hand it over to me and I'll take care of it
23:37:28 <oerjan> i have a feeling if you hand it to Arc_Koen, it will end up somewhere in nigeria
23:38:29 <shachaf> oerjan: how's the world dictator thing going
23:39:10 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, i will vote for you if your first action is the fucking up of sweden's shit
23:39:49 <oerjan> i have nothing against swedes in general, but they are going to get a _serious_ reeducation
23:39:52 <HackEgo> 329) <elliott_> `addquote <olsner> two quotes about quotes about django <olsner> I guess the worst part is that I appear in all three hackego quotes about django <olsner> elliott_: another quote? you're not helping :/
23:40:02 <Sgeo> `quote diplomacy
23:40:07 <HackEgo> 479) <Taneb> Maybe if you try diplomacy. <Taneb> Pointy steel diplomacy \ 883) [on Diplomacy] <Bike> man, that doesn't even mention greece at all [...] <Bike> oh, this is about a game, not world war i.
23:40:16 <HackEgo> 710) <olsner> what a world it would be if you could actually *steal* code so that the other project has to rewrite it or infiltrate your project to steal it back
23:41:12 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:41:39 <Sgeo> Going to go out to buy a chicken sandwich
23:41:43 -!- carado has joined.
23:41:44 <Sgeo> With lettuce and onions
23:41:56 <Sgeo> I'm more used to that being a lunch
23:41:56 <shachaf> Sgeo: i'm not sure i understand
23:42:16 <Sgeo> Then again, I often don't have lunch, so
23:42:30 <zzo38> O no, my Dungeons&Dragons character only has 1 diplomacy (+2 to aberration type creatures).
23:43:16 <zzo38> Does that mean I can't vote?
23:43:37 <oerjan> zzo38: huh i had sort of got the impression he was the kind who could talk his way out of things
23:43:51 <kmc> `quote django
23:43:55 <HackEgo> 270) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 317) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 318) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named a
23:44:14 <kmc> head explode
23:44:20 <zzo38> oerjan: Well, some things, perhaps.
23:44:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastequote: not found
23:44:55 <elliott> kmc: you may find `pastequotes django more helpful
23:45:15 * FireFly wonders why there is a `pastaquote` though
23:45:32 <zzo38> (Note also that charisma also affects diplomacy too; not only skills and feats)
23:45:35 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.24330
23:46:04 <oerjan> FireFly: because people around here are attracted to puns like flies to vinegar
23:46:23 <Sgeo> `paste cat bin/pastaquotes
23:46:26 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/cat%20bin/pastaquotes
23:46:27 <zzo38> So can the psychic power "realize potential"
23:46:51 <Sgeo> `paste bin/pastaquote
23:46:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/pastaquote
23:47:29 <Sgeo> I think pastaquote should just quote me
23:47:50 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to pasta.
23:47:55 -!- pasta has changed nick to Sgeo.
23:48:01 <Sgeo> pasta is registered
23:48:05 <oerjan> `addquote <Sgeo> I think pastaquote should just quote me
23:48:17 <HackEgo> 989) <Sgeo> I think pastaquote should just quote me
23:48:27 <HackEgo> 989) <Sgeo> I think pastaquote should just quote me
23:49:02 <oerjan> Bike: Sgeo has to get his wishes _some_ times
23:50:55 <HackEgo> "exec pastlog pasta" > bin/pastalog
23:51:11 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/pastalog: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/pastalog: cannot execute: Permission denied
23:51:59 <Sgeo> Nice Job Breaking It Hero
23:52:47 <Phantom_Hoover> your use of tv tropes to parse daily life deeply disturbs me
23:53:30 <tswett> I do that from time to time.
23:53:43 -!- juniorfabian has joined.
23:53:49 <tswett> I use Camelcase when and only when I'm referring to a TV Tropes article.
23:54:44 -!- juniorfabian has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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00:04:02 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
00:08:58 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
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00:35:33 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/netsec/comments/1avogh/the_sandbox_roulette_are_you_ready_for_the_gamble/
00:35:51 <Sgeo> (tl;dr OS bugs can make application-level sandboxes not work well)
00:38:09 -!- Bike has joined.
00:41:55 <elliott> Bike: how do bicycles use computers anyway
00:42:02 <kmc> and hypervisor bugs can make OS security not work very well
00:43:04 <elliott> i never had a "homestar runner phase" & feel at times that this may have made me less of a person
00:44:06 <shachaf> i dont"really know what homestarr unner is??"
00:46:16 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
00:47:27 -!- Bike has joined.
00:49:03 <zzo38> I have other questions.
00:49:17 <zzo38> Or are you agnostic?
00:49:19 <zzo38> Or something else?
00:49:31 <kmc> eggnogstic
00:49:55 <zzo38> kmc: Eggnogstic? What do you mean by that?
00:50:24 <zzo38> Do you mean you have eggnog?
00:50:47 <kmc> i think there is some eggnog in my fridge, yes
00:50:49 <kmc> from several years ago
00:52:16 <pikhq_> I don't think it counts as eggnog anymore.
00:57:39 <oerjan> it _may_ count as a sentient lifeform.
00:57:44 <Sgeo> Fun thought: Dynamically-typed language where it's not possible to just ask values what their types are
00:57:55 <Sgeo> Goal is to encourage a sense of design where you have to know what each value's type is
00:58:01 <Sgeo> ala static typing
00:58:09 <Sgeo> But don't need to prove it to the compiler necessarily
00:58:12 <elliott> oerjan: oh no, z-wave is still being advertised on the wiki!!
00:58:29 <Sgeo> Idea is to avoid the temptation in dynamically-typed languages to special case on the type
00:58:35 <elliott> if only... if only you could do something
00:58:47 <Sgeo> I could do something if I was given rights >>>
00:58:57 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
00:59:30 <Bike> Sgeo: how is it dynamically typed if you can't probe for type information.
00:59:58 <Bike> that sounds more like static typing without erasure, or something.
01:00:33 <Sgeo> Well, if you have a hashmap foo, and know that foo["bar"] is an int, because of how your code uses foo, then you can just use foo["bar"] as an int
01:00:46 <Sgeo> Similar things are tricky to do in statically typed languages
01:01:00 <shachaf> just make foo["bar"] a monoid
01:01:49 <Sgeo> I'm going to go AFK soon
01:05:37 <Sgeo> Bike, the goal is a statically typed sense of design in a more flexible environment than what static typing allows
01:05:37 <ion> shachaf: Someone should have told SPJ et al. to make STM a monoid. They would have saved so much effort.
01:05:46 <zzo38> I suppose that kind of type can be like it will be in an assembly language program that you have to keep track of the type by yourself, or how Forth often works
01:05:57 <shachaf> ion: Maybe they shouldn't been using the category of endofunctors!!!!
01:06:02 <Sgeo> zzo38, sure, pretty much
01:06:12 <zzo38> In C, you can have casts and unions and so on
01:06:23 <tswett> shachaf: an entire monoid?
01:06:50 <tswett> ion: STM can't be a monoid; it's the wrong kind.
01:06:51 <Bike> I suppose the problem isn't really static typing so much as being unable to express the type «a hashmap such that the «bar» entry is an int».
01:07:03 <shachaf> tswett: I suspect ion knows that.
01:07:11 <Sgeo> Bike, hmm, true
01:07:22 <tswett> I guess the only obvious reasonable interpretation is to make "STM a" a monoid.
01:07:24 <Sgeo> Dynamic typing can do it? The type of such a hashmap could contain a hashmap of types?
01:07:28 <zzo38> Bike: I think there is a Haskell extension (but not in GHC) allowing something similar to that?
01:07:29 <Sgeo> erm, not dynamic
01:07:38 <zzo38> Not quite, though.
01:07:48 <tswett> Technically, in Smalltalk, it's impossible to determine the type of a value.
01:07:49 <Bike> Yeah, probably.
01:08:12 <tswett> In practice, of course, most values will tell you their types if asked.
01:08:22 <Bike> Everything's uncomputable then though (who cares)
01:08:27 <oerjan> i think ion may be wanting a new kind of monoid
01:08:42 <Bike> imo trace monoids
01:08:43 <tswett> A monoid that isn't a set equipped with an identity element and an associative operation?
01:08:58 <ion> tswett: The misunderstanding results from you thinking in terms of the current STM implementation. They wouldn’t have needed to spend all that effort to make the current STM implementation if they’d just have made a monoid. Because monoids are easy. I love monoids.
01:09:30 <tswett> ion: *nod* So you're not saying "make the STM type constructor into a monoid"; you're saying "implement software transactional memory using a monoid".
01:10:01 <Sgeo> I shoudl really go afk
01:10:04 <Bike> Sgeo: alternately you could just use an explicit annotation, foo["bar"] :: Int or w/e
01:10:11 <zzo38> In Haskell, there is also Data.Extensible.Product which allows adding new fields to existing record types, although each field needs a type to label the field as well as the type of the values of the field, as well as needing a default value (which can depend on the constructor's value if necessary).
01:10:33 <tswett> It's not obvious to me how you'd make it a monoid.
01:10:33 <zzo38> Bike: How is that?
01:10:38 <Sgeo> Bike, but then there may be similar situations that might not be so amenable to such changing of things
01:10:51 <Bike> zzo38: how is what.
01:11:00 <ion> tswett: It doesn’t matter. All that matters is that monoids are easy. Just ask shachaf and/or beaky.
01:11:02 <oerjan> tswett: you missed a pun hth
01:11:15 <Bike> Sgeo: probably. now go afk.
01:11:24 <zzo38> Bike: I mean :: Int or w/e how exactly would such an annotation work; what is w/e meaning?
01:11:26 <elliott> wow, oerjan's standards for puns are lower than I thought.
01:11:46 <Bike> zzo38: (foo["bar"] :: Int) or w/e
01:11:54 <zzo38> If :: is an annotation,
01:12:26 <oerjan> my standards are not just lower than you imagine, they're lower than you _can_ imagine
01:12:28 <zzo38> How is this the kind of annotation to specify the type of foo["bar"], what is the type of foo, then?
01:12:33 <zzo38> It doesn't seem to help.
01:12:54 <Bike> It helps in that the accessed value is known to be an int which is what Sgeo asked for.
01:12:55 <zzo38> oerjan: Are you sure?
01:13:14 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, I suppose it does that, but it doesn't tell you what type foo is?
01:13:22 <Bike> no, it doesn't
01:13:34 <Bike> is that important in this context
01:14:10 <oerjan> zzo38: being sure would be setting the standard too high
01:14:35 <kmc> actually it should be a commutative monoid
01:15:05 <zzo38> oerjan: O, right, OK then
01:15:59 <ion> tswett: I was just making a stupid, tired joke based on a running gag that originated from #haskell.
01:16:16 <ion> Alas, shachaf has deleted the file i would have linked.
01:24:04 <oerjan> shachaf: why did you have to apply a non-monoidal operation to the file? now you have made ion's life difficult.
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01:50:23 <nooodl> i think i just proved a language to be turing complete http://esolangs.org/wiki/0815
01:50:47 <nooodl> does this look valid to you guys, though! i have no idea about this stuff
01:50:54 <Bike> why is the wiki blue
01:51:16 <shachaf> elliott: imo get an ssl certificate for esolangs.org
01:51:30 <Sgeo> Bike, it's sad about all the spam
01:52:00 <tswett> nooodl: lemme take a look.
01:52:20 <elliott> shachaf: feel free to give methe money for one
01:52:26 <nooodl> q: why is the wiki logo three slices of lime
01:52:44 <shachaf> kmc: What was that place that gave you free SSL certificates?
01:52:53 <elliott> nooodl: because graue saw the image and liked it
01:53:01 <elliott> nooodl: it is a picture of the matrix of solidity
01:53:48 <HackEgo> 250) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
01:54:02 <HackEgo> 250) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
01:55:22 <tswett> nooodl: well, you say it's Turing-complete "when registers are unbounded", but they're not.
01:55:51 <shachaf> elliott: http://startssl.org/ ?
01:56:11 <elliott> i thought we had another treederwright quote
01:56:17 <HackEgo> 121) <ivancastillo75> Oh I get it you guys just use this space to do nothing ?
01:56:32 <elliott> yeah nooodl's proof is bunk for the language presented there
01:56:41 <elliott> but it can say that a trivial generalisation is TC
01:57:30 <elliott> shachaf: this looks like a lot of work
01:57:41 <elliott> i'm sceptical of the whole WoT thing too
01:57:44 <nooodl> i don't think the wiki page mentions the queue itself being bounded by stuff
01:57:52 <shachaf> elliott: imo do the work??
01:58:16 <tswett> So my current specification for Proce is kind of broken hth.
01:58:17 <elliott> nooodl: I agree, using the queue would be OK
01:58:39 <shachaf> elliott: imo give me root access to your server and i'll do the work for you
01:59:31 <nooodl> ugh i have an idea but i don't actually want to code the translations in this shitty esolang
01:59:39 <tswett> I think it would be possible to implement something like a Minsky register machine in Proce by abusing the discreteness of it and doing something significant each time step.
02:00:05 <elliott> so mediawiki doesn't have a simple way to generate a random number. my plan to make nooodl's user page title have a random number of "o"s in it is foiled
02:00:06 <nooodl> basically because of the "queue rotate" operators, the queue could essentially act as a pair of stacks
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02:01:29 <elliott> ais523: my plan to make oerjan an admin by not deleting spam has failed
02:01:48 <elliott> I suggest we try kidnapping next
02:02:30 <tswett> Okay. Proce. How can you store information?
02:03:01 <tswett> You could just use a signal to store an integer, but that sounds like it would be hard to read. And, for that matter, hard to write.
02:03:44 <tswett> All right, better idea. Use a signal to store one single bit.
02:03:57 <ais523> elliott: more spam to fix?
02:04:34 <ais523> appears to be a different spambot this time
02:04:56 <elliott> yes, probably not worth filtering
02:05:03 <tswett> Then you can easily do combinational logic. Sequential logic would be more difficult; how do you implement a clock and a latch?
02:05:06 <elliott> I am thinking I should just add some more CAPTCHAs after I get around to upgrading MW
02:05:11 <elliott> it stopped them for several months
02:08:32 <oerjan> elliott: perhaps you can use a time function instead of a random one?
02:09:52 <nooodl> instead of representing registers on the queue as [3, 2], they're now represented in unary separated by 0, as [1, 1, 1, 0, 1, 1]
02:09:53 <elliott> oerjan: yes, I considered that. but I also realised that DISPLAYTITLE doesn't let you do anything but change case in its default configuration, so I'd either have to mess with the MW configuration or write some CSS nonsense to do it. so I gave up.
02:09:55 <tswett> Oh, duh. You can implement a latch using logic gates.
02:11:19 <kmc> shachaf: startssl
02:12:02 <shachaf> But elliott doesn't want to put a certificate on esolangs.org
02:12:16 <nooodl> ugh i'm going through the List Of Esolangs, and
02:12:22 <nooodl> there's so much bad things :(((
02:13:22 <oerjan> elliott: just a week till deadfish should be featured hth
02:13:51 <kmc> make an esolang whose syntax is SSL certificates
02:14:23 <ais523> we clearly need a ridiculous blurb for it, too
02:14:31 <elliott> ais523: we can just reuse the opening sentences of the article
02:14:43 <elliott> they perfectly encapsulate deadfish
02:15:16 <elliott> there is a slight downside, in that anyone finding the wiki will immediately assume it only has the very worst esolangs
02:15:38 <ais523> it's better than the average BF deriv :)
02:15:51 <elliott> the opening sentences aren't :P
02:16:54 <tswett> <program><substitutions><sub><pattern><cdata contents="world, world"/></pattern><replacement><cdata contents="Hello"/></replacement></sub></substitutions>world, world, world!</program>
02:17:50 <nooodl> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Con-Text whaaaa
02:18:15 <Bike> equivalent to C/C++
02:18:18 <oerjan> tswett: i suggest YOU write a loop in that hth
02:18:34 <tswett> Okay s. I'll do that s.
02:18:54 <Bike> Assigning a value to the name of a function from within that function returns that value from the function (sounds complicated but it's the same as QBasic).
02:19:16 <tswett> Maybe we should remove all of the bad languages from the wiki.
02:19:40 <tswett> If it has some unique idea or it's Brainfuck, keep it. Otherwise, toss it.
02:19:59 <tswett> Of course, I guess Brainfuck is SeinfeldIsn'tFunny.
02:20:00 <Bike> "Unfortunately no interpreter or compiler exists at the moment, as i am unable to create a parser to parse this horrendous language." do you even lift
02:20:11 <ais523> tswett: brainfuck had a unique idea at the time
02:20:20 <tswett> That's what I just said.
02:22:05 <oerjan> elliott: i think maybe a bit from the "Why Deadfish" section might be included as well?
02:22:56 <elliott> oerjan: perhaps we should just redirect the main page to the article.
02:24:19 <Sgeo> What language is this?
02:24:50 <oerjan> What "this" is "this"?
02:24:52 <Bike> Con-Text. It's pretty boxbot.
02:25:17 <lambdabot> http://gunnerkrigg.wikia.com/wiki/Boxbot
02:25:17 <lambdabot> Title: Boxbot - Gunnerkrigg Court Wiki
02:29:52 <Sgeo> Ok, the IOU thing for 99 bottles of beer is somewhat amusing\
02:30:38 <Sgeo> Is there a language called Vorpal.
02:30:42 <nooodl> proved golfscript to be TC, too "i'm on a roll"
02:30:42 <Sgeo> Vorpal, are you a language?
02:30:54 <elliott> nooodl: golfscript literally has an eval ruby instruction
02:31:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
02:31:45 <nooodl> it doesn't, actually! you can eval ruby expressions because of how string interpolation works though
02:31:57 <Bike> i already like this system
02:32:25 <nooodl> however i don't think you can make a program that takes ruby code as input and evals it
02:32:41 <nooodl> anyway my proof is almost as easy, thanks underload for existing
02:33:28 <elliott> nooodl: that needs to go above external resources hth
02:33:42 <nooodl> wow how the hell is it down there
02:38:12 <Lymia> !bfjoust this-is-going-to-lose-badly-isnt-it ((((>[-.-+-.-+-.-+-.-+-.-+-.-+-.-+-.-.-.-.+-.+.+-.+.])*7.)*-1)*-1)*6
02:38:24 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_this-is-going-to-lose-badly-isnt-it: 7.5
02:39:05 <oerjan> nooodl: don't you get underload a too as ` ?
02:39:54 <oerjan> or wait, does that mix well with +
02:40:09 * oerjan doesn't know golfscript, is just reading the instruction list
02:40:18 <nooodl> there's weird coercion rules
02:40:34 <nooodl> you could just do {:X;{X}}:a;
02:41:01 <nooodl> but hey, that subset's already TC so why bother
02:41:41 <Lymia> How does something that clears, err.. so inefficiently do better than 1.0 or something
02:41:59 <Lymia> !bfjoust inefficient-clear (>[-(.)*5])*-1
02:42:04 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_inefficient-clear: 9.3
02:42:09 <nooodl> !bfjoust inefficientest-clear <
02:42:11 <EgoBot> Score for nooodl_inefficientest-clear: 0.0
02:42:16 <Lymia> !bfjoust inefficient-clear (>[-(.)*10])*-1
02:42:19 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_inefficient-clear: 7.3
02:42:54 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Leaving).
02:43:33 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_lazy: 3.7
02:43:53 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_lazy: 3.7
02:44:02 <Lymia> !bfjoust less-lazy >+<
02:44:05 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_less-lazy: 1.0
02:44:10 <Lymia> Weird how this hill wokrs.
02:44:32 <shachaf> !bfjoust nonstrct [>[>.[.+]<+]<]
02:44:36 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_nonstrct: 3.7
02:44:40 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_lazy: 1.0
02:44:55 <Lymia> !bfjoust wtf (-)*126
02:44:57 <oerjan> Lymia: seems like a decoy makes it worse :P
02:45:00 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_wtf: 6.9
02:45:05 -!- Jafet1 has changed nick to Jafet.
02:45:08 <Lymia> This hill is insane
02:45:14 <Lymia> !bfjoust wtfer (-)*127
02:45:16 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_wtfer: 6.9
02:45:27 <shachaf> Maybe I should learn the rules.
02:45:30 <Lymia> !bfjoust wtfest (-)*128
02:45:33 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_wtfest: 5.5
02:47:14 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
02:47:22 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_hi: 3.7
02:47:26 <oerjan> !bfjoust weird (-)*128>+
02:47:29 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_weird: 5.5
02:47:39 <oerjan> !bfjoust weird >+<(-)*128
02:47:42 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_weird: 2.7
02:47:59 <oerjan> !bfjoust weird >+<(-)*127
02:48:03 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_weird: 4.2
02:48:25 <Bike> isn't it .bftext or something
02:48:29 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
02:48:55 <Lymia> !bfjoust hi ++++++++[>+>++>+++>++++>+++++>++++++>+++++++>++++++++>+++++++++>++++++++++>+++++++++++>++++++++++++>+++++++++++++>++++++++++++++>+++++++++++++++>++++++++++++++++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<-]>>>>>>>>>>>>>.<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>.<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>-.+<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>-.+<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>++.--<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>----.++++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>----.++++<<<<<<<<<<<<<.
02:48:58 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hi: 0.0
02:49:05 <Lymia> !bf_txtgen hi world
02:49:09 <EgoBot> 93 ++++++++[>+>+++++++++++++>++++><<<<-]>>.+.>.<++++++++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.<++. [208]
02:49:16 <Lymia> !bfjoust hi ++++++++[>+>+++++++++++++>++++><<<<-]>>.+.>.<++++++++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.<++.
02:49:19 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hi: 1.3
02:49:23 <shachaf> oerjan: Have you noticed that #haskell is pretty awful most of the time?
02:50:16 <Lymia> !bf_txtgen i hate you hill
02:50:17 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't tend to notice things i cannot see because i'm not there
02:50:19 <EgoBot> 128 +++++++++++[>+>++++++++++>+++>++++++++++<<<<-]>>-----.>-.<-.-------.>>++++++.<<++++.>.>+++++.----------.++++++.<.<+++.+.+++..<-. [221]
02:50:26 <Lymia> !bfjoust hate +++++++++++[>+>++++++++++>+++>++++++++++<<<<-]>>-----.>-.<-.-------.>>++++++.<<++++.>.>+++++.----------.++++++.<.<+++.+.+++..<-.
02:50:28 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hate: 0.0
02:50:30 <Lymia> Should I stop being silly? :p
02:50:35 <Bike> whoa you haven't banned beaky
02:51:18 <oerjan> !bfjoust love (-)*128([-])*-1
02:51:20 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_love: 7.1
02:51:34 <Lymia> Here's a challenge.
02:51:41 <Bike> wow this code.
02:51:46 <Lymia> Write a program that prints "Hello world" when executed as normal Brainfuck.
02:51:53 <Lymia> And gets at least a 30 on the hill in bfjoust.
02:51:59 <shachaf> oerjan: Why did you leave?
02:52:03 <Bike> [(n, _)] -> if neg == eq then go xs False eq lhs (sum + n) else go xs False eq lhs (sum - n)
02:52:21 <Arc_Koen> here's a challence, Lymia: write a program that gets at least a 30 on the hill in bfjoust
02:53:00 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
02:56:33 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
02:57:42 <Arc_Koen> what's the difference between "score" and "points" at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt ?
02:59:12 <Lymia> score goes through some algorithm
02:59:15 <Lymia> points is raw win/lose
02:59:32 <elliott> score is just your victories weighted by points
02:59:40 <elliott> i.e., you get more for winning against a higher-point opponent
03:00:01 <zzo38> It looks like sprunge has now added a slight variant of a bookmarklet I have made for use with sprunge.
03:00:31 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
03:00:32 <Sgeo> Sorry for being slow
03:00:47 <shachaf> Sgeo: You missed the olist update.
03:01:07 <Sgeo> Wait, 881 or 882?
03:01:14 <Sgeo> Is there an 882?
03:01:59 <Fiora> FEFERI: 38) NEPETA: :33
03:02:47 <Arc_Koen> Lymia: why is your "hate" program not in that file?
03:03:25 <Lymia> Because it's off the hill
03:03:36 -!- sirdancealot has joined.
03:04:01 <shachaf> :33 < I'm not very good at this.
03:04:17 <Arc_Koen> Lymia: well Oerjan's "love" is on the hill
03:04:27 <Arc_Koen> even though it basically commits suicide as fast as possible
03:04:55 <Lymia> Arc_Koen, because it was the first one.
03:05:09 <Lymia> That's always on the hill
03:05:11 <Lymia> As it's the challenger
03:05:11 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf__33: 0.0
03:05:55 -!- madbr has joined.
03:06:00 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Goon date).
03:06:05 <Arc_Koen> so there really are only 47 programs on the hill?
03:06:22 <Arc_Koen> and did oerjan just left to go on a date?
03:08:28 <Arc_Koen> !bfjoust almost_straigtht (+>->)*10([-]>)*-1
03:08:31 <EgoBot> Score for Arc_Koen_almost_straigtht: 0.0
03:09:04 <Arc_Koen> !bfjoust almost_straigtht (+>->)*5([-]>)*-1
03:09:07 <EgoBot> Score for Arc_Koen_almost_straigtht: 14.8
03:09:45 <madbr> trying to see if it would be cool to have a language where the program is on a hyperbolic space (so a hyperbolic version of befunge)
03:09:56 <Lymia> !bfjoust rule-of-eight (+>->)*4([-]>)*-1
03:09:58 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_rule-of-eight: 14.9
03:10:07 <madbr> problem: the space grows exponentially as you grow away from the center
03:10:12 <zzo38> I like that idea too
03:10:19 <Bike> problem more like opportunity
03:10:26 <Lymia> madbr, you can't make a square grid there, can you?
03:10:35 <madbr> I have the following rules for a 6:4 space
03:10:50 <madbr> c (center) -> adadadadadad
03:11:04 <madbr> a (adjacent) -> adada
03:11:14 <madbr> d (diagonal) -> adadada
03:11:39 <Arc_Koen> Lymia: you just kicked Taneb's magic off the hill
03:12:03 <madbr> each time you run the rule it generates a new "ring" around the previous layer
03:12:07 <zzo38> Do you know anything about Verilog programming? I wrote a Verilog code but I don't know if it is a good code
03:12:10 <Lymia> !bfjoust flag-is-not-a-decoy (>+>-)*4([-]>)*-1
03:12:12 <madbr> but the ring expands really fast
03:12:14 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flag-is-not-a-decoy: 5.7
03:12:15 <Lymia> !bfjoust flag-is-not-a-decoy (>+>-)*4(>[-])*-1
03:12:18 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flag-is-not-a-decoy: 16.4
03:12:26 <madbr> zzo : no but I wanna look at it anyways
03:12:39 <zzo38> madbr: http://sprunge.us/MEOK
03:12:46 <Lymia> !bfjoust wee-more-than-one-flag-size >++++>---->+++>--->++>-->+>-(>[-])*-1
03:12:49 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_wee-more-than-one-flag-size: 15.0
03:13:28 <Lymia> !bfjoust decoys-are-indeed-a-thing (>++>-->+>-)*2(>[-[++[-]]])*-1
03:13:30 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_decoys-are-indeed-a-thing: 12.5
03:13:42 <Lymia> !bfjoust decoys-are-indeed-a-thing (>+>->+>-)*2(>[-[++[-]]])*-1
03:13:45 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_decoys-are-indeed-a-thing: 14.1
03:14:21 <Lymia> !bfjoust decoys-are-indeed-a-thing (>+>->>+)*2(>[--]])*-1
03:14:24 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_decoys-are-indeed-a-thing: 0.0
03:14:26 <Lymia> !bfjoust decoys-are-indeed-a-thing (>+>->>+)*2(>[-[-]])*-1
03:14:29 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_decoys-are-indeed-a-thing: 13.5
03:14:38 <Lymia> !bfjoust decoys-are-indeed-a-thing (>+>->>+)*2(>[+[-]])*-1
03:14:41 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_decoys-are-indeed-a-thing: 16.1
03:14:55 <Lymia> Dunno why +[-] and -[-] are so different
03:15:28 <Arc_Koen> that takes one iteration to come back to 0
03:15:31 <madbr> zzo38 : looks like a sound chip, does it have variable brightness? :D
03:15:37 <Arc_Koen> but if you're on a 0 and you take 1
03:15:46 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
03:15:52 <Arc_Koen> and then [-]... that takes 256 or so iterations to come back
03:15:57 <zzo38> madbr: Brightness?
03:16:20 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow (>)*8(>[+[-]]>[-[+]])*-1
03:16:23 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 13.2
03:16:25 <Arc_Koen> though [-[-]] is a little redundant; when the first ] finally doesn't trigger, the second won't either
03:16:30 <zzo38> madbr: It is meant to be a sound chip, though.
03:16:40 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow (>)*4++(>)*4(>[+[-]]>[-[+]])*-1
03:16:42 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 14.8
03:16:50 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow (>)*4++>-(>)*3(>[+[-]]>[-[+]])*-1
03:16:53 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 16.6
03:17:17 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow (>)*4++>-(>)*3(>[(+)*5[-]]>[(-)*5[+]])*-1
03:17:20 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 20.8
03:17:25 <madbr> zzo : yeah, like a way to get brighter or less bright waveforms
03:17:47 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow (>)*4++>-(>)*3(>[(+)*5[-]])*-1
03:17:50 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 19.8
03:17:59 <zzo38> madbr: I don't know exactly what that means, though.
03:18:00 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow (>)*2>->++>-(>)*3(>[(+)*5[-]]>[(-)*5[+]])*-1
03:18:03 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 20.0
03:18:12 <ais523> Lymia: is this evolved? or generated by hand?
03:18:16 <Lymia> Generated by hand.
03:18:21 <madbr> like on the casio CZ synths they simply did it by having wave morphing between a sine wave and a bright waveform like a saw wave or square wave etc
03:18:36 <Lymia> ais523, I'm probs going to overhaul how the evolver works soon.
03:18:38 <ais523> Arc_Koen: [-[-]] avoids getting tricked off the end by defence programs
03:18:43 <ais523> but they'll probably just lock it instead
03:19:02 <Arc_Koen> how's that different from [-] ?
03:19:06 <madbr> and you can control the brightness of the waveform by making it more like a sine (less bright) or more like the selected wave (more bright)
03:19:09 <Lymia> Since it needs to produce an activation to make loops and repeats.
03:19:17 <zzo38> madbr: This one only has square waves and saw waves and noise, and you can have mixtures of square waves
03:19:19 <Lymia> It's pretty sucky at making stuff with lots of repeats.
03:19:26 <Arc_Koen> oh, it tests if it's zero a second time
03:19:27 <Lymia> It made the code simpler, but, clearly doesn't help.
03:19:56 <Lymia> That one's not evolved though.
03:19:57 <madbr> zzo: or in FM synths you can vary the brightness by changing the modulation depth (volume of the modulator)
03:20:00 <Lymia> The evolver's max is ~18
03:20:00 <zzo38> madbr: OK, now I can understand what you mean, but this program doesn't implement sine waves, so it is unlikely to have such thing.
03:20:04 <Lymia> That was a vibrator pattern
03:20:27 <madbr> zzo: in analog synthesis you can do it by adding a filter and adjusting the filter cutoff
03:20:52 <Arc_Koen> !bfjoust just_run >>+>->>>>>>([-])*-1
03:20:56 <EgoBot> Score for Arc_Koen_just_run: 0.3
03:21:11 <Lymia> !bfjoust i-dont-think-i-should-have-the-forever-loop-type (.-+)*-1
03:21:14 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_i-dont-think-i-should-have-the-forever-loop-type: 11.9
03:21:25 <zzo38> madbr: OK. I can understand those things, but they are different things, I think. I have worked with all of these things, in Csound and otherwise
03:21:26 <madbr> zzo38 : doesn't need to have sine wave, you can also do it with triangle wave morph
03:21:40 <elliott> Arc_Koen: that only handles one tape length
03:21:59 <Arc_Koen> !bfjoust just_run >>+>->>>>>>([-]>)*-1
03:22:02 <EgoBot> Score for Arc_Koen_just_run: 16.3
03:22:15 <zzo38> madbr: Still, I am not exactly sure how that would be done here.
03:22:19 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow (>)*2>->++>-(>)*3(>[(+)*8[-[-]]]>[(-)*8[+[+]]])*-1
03:22:21 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 17.1
03:22:26 <madbr> zzo38 : oh, I know
03:22:28 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow (>)*2>->++>-(>)*3(>[(+)*8[-]]>[(-)*8[+]])*-1
03:22:31 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 20.5
03:22:33 <madbr> you could have 2 period registers
03:22:35 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow (>)*2>->++>-(>)*3[>](>[(+)*8[-]]>[(-)*8[+]])*-1
03:22:37 <Arc_Koen> ais523: what does your "defend7" program do?
03:22:37 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 15.4
03:22:55 <ais523> Arc_Koen: it's just a lock program
03:23:01 <ais523> you can read about them on http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies
03:23:02 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow (>)*2>->++>-(>)*3(>[>(>[(+)*8[-]]>[(-)*8[+]])*-1])*-1
03:23:04 <madbr> and then have one period register used for a part of the waveform, and the other one used for the other part
03:23:04 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 25.2
03:23:18 <madbr> that and a triangle wave waveform
03:23:29 <zzo38> madbr: O, OK, I guess I understand you now
03:23:32 <madbr> will get you easy morphing between triangle wave and saw wave
03:23:40 <zzo38> Yes, I can understand that now.
03:24:00 <Lymia> I suspect my problem is that some /decent/ but not /good/ things are too easy to create
03:24:05 <Arc_Koen> !bfjoust whatsthedifference >>+>->>>>>>([-[-]]>)*-1
03:24:08 <EgoBot> Score for Arc_Koen_whatsthedifference: 14.0
03:24:23 <Lymia> Causing the less-than-good results
03:24:33 <madbr> zzo38 : variable brightness is awesome. You should try to have it.
03:25:06 <Lymia> ais523, the evolver's currently going up rarely in very large steps too. I suspect this is a symptom of something seriously wrong, since, this is clearly not what it should do
03:25:12 <zzo38> madbr: Yes, I suppose it could be implemented, but not with what I have now; it would require a different kind of implementation entirely, I think.
03:25:33 <Lymia> I rarely, if ever, see gradual improvement
03:26:16 <Arc_Koen> ais523: apparently whatsthedifference got a win against omnipotence
03:26:19 <Lymia> Actually, that's probs just as symptom of a not-very-smooth fitness landscape.
03:26:30 <ais523> Arc_Koen: most of the top programs have weaknesses
03:26:48 <Lymia> ais523, what do you think of this.
03:26:54 <Lymia> Take /all/ past programs on the hill.
03:27:00 <ais523> there will be a lot of bad ones
03:27:03 <ais523> but it's an interesting idea
03:27:05 <Lymia> Run an evaluation on the hill, and, take the top, like, 150 programs.
03:27:18 <madbr> zzo: I think it would be easy to just select between two period registers
03:27:19 <Lymia> So I don't have such a small sample-- which might be causing some of the issue.
03:27:24 <ais523> evaluating the whole thing would take a while
03:27:32 <ais523> but feel free to go for it, the results would be interesting in their own right
03:27:37 <ais523> also you might want to insist on unique names
03:27:46 <ais523> so you don't get 10 slightly different copies of the same program
03:27:48 <Lymia> Evaluate it against that first.
03:27:54 <Lymia> And weed out the worst there before doing the full test
03:28:12 <zzo38> madbr: Yes, I think it would not be too difficult, it just isn't what this one implements; one of the channels could be changed into the one like that, though, I suppose.
03:28:32 <Lymia> ais523, I honestly don't know how to do the hg magic needed for that
03:28:54 <zzo38> Or they could be all changed but it would then be entirely different
03:29:08 <ais523> Lymia: you do it afterwards, I guess
03:29:15 <ais523> I'm not very good at hg either, though
03:29:24 <elliott> I wouldn't evaluate it against a rush like that, I think
03:29:32 <elliott> I'm sure there's many viable strategies that would lose against it
03:29:47 <Lymia> I need some weeder to take out the ones that's not worth the time evaluating
03:29:51 <Lymia> Since that's an O(n^2) operation
03:29:59 <Lymia> For n that could easily be >1000
03:30:15 <Arc_Koen> well you can test them against an empty program
03:30:27 <Lymia> If I could produce a function Similarity(P, P2)
03:30:33 <Lymia> Then, group all similar enough programs together.
03:30:41 <Lymia> And do a hill on each of those, taking the best
03:30:43 <Lymia> Before doing the big hill.
03:30:57 <Lymia> I might be able to get good representatives of all strategies
03:31:18 <Arc_Koen> Lymia: the best in a group of similar program will not necessarily be the best at handling different programs
03:31:40 <Lymia> Could always do it versus the current hill instead
03:31:50 <Lymia> Since people often submit lots of similar programs.
03:32:02 <Lymia> Reducing those to a few better representitives would be nice.
03:33:08 <Arc_Koen> you could also select random opponents and have every program play 100 battles instead of 1000
03:34:15 <Arc_Koen> (you can do that in several rounds - during the first round they have fewer opponents, but less programs are discarded)
03:34:51 <Lymia> Raw data extraction first
03:36:21 <zzo38> madbr: I don't know how Casio CZ synthesizer works; do you know how to make an emulation of it in Csound or whatever?
03:37:33 <zzo38> I found a picture of Casio CZ synthesizer in Wikipedia
03:38:34 <madbr> the CZ reads a sine wave table
03:39:15 <madbr> but instead of reading the table linearly it messes up the read index so that part of the waveform lasts longer and part of the waveform lasts shorter
03:40:02 <zzo38> Such thing like that is easily made in Csound.
03:40:08 <madbr> it has 6 different patterns for that (saw, saw2, square, imuplse, double impulse, osc sync)
03:40:31 <madbr> internally it combines two different patterns
03:40:56 <madbr> so you can do saw+square and it alternates between saw,square,saw,square,saw,square,etc...
03:41:24 <madbr> which is how it generates pulse-wave-like waveforms like saxophone and guitars etc
03:42:10 <madbr> also it has windowing (which is really ring modulation) to remove the buzzing edge out of the osc sync, and it does resonant waveforms this way
03:42:55 <madbr> I think it had a divider in hardware to do it though
03:43:10 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow (>)*2>->++>-(>)*3(>[>([(+)*8[-]]>[(-)*8[+]]>)*-1])*-1
03:43:13 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 23.0
03:43:27 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow (>)*2>->++>-(>)*3(>[>(>[(+)*8[-]]>[(-)*8[+]])*-1])*-1
03:43:30 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 25.2
03:43:42 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow (>)*2>->++>-(>)*3(>[>>>([(+)*8[-]]>[(-)*8[+]]>)*-1])*-1
03:43:45 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 18.6
03:43:49 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow (>)*2>->++>-(>)*3(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>[(-)*8[+]]>)*-1])*-1
03:43:52 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 25.2
03:43:55 <Lymia> I guess decoys tend to come duplicate?
03:44:11 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow (>)*3>->++>-(>)*2(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>[(-)*8[+]]>)*-1])*-1
03:44:14 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 25.3
03:44:24 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow (>)*3>(-)*10>(+)*10>-(>)*2(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>[(-)*8[+]]>)*-1])*-1
03:44:27 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 23.3
03:44:43 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>>>--->(+)*17>->>(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>[(-)*8[+]]>)*-1])*-1
03:44:46 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 21.0
03:44:54 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>>>->++>->>(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>[(-)*8[+]]>)*-1])*-1
03:44:57 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 25.3
03:45:03 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>>>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>[(-)*8[+]]>)*-1])*-1
03:45:06 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 27.9
03:46:03 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>>>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*5[-]]>[(-)*5[+]]>)*-1])*-1
03:46:05 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 27.6
03:46:09 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>>>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*10[-]]>[(-)*10[+]]>)*-1])*-1
03:46:11 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 26.9
03:46:28 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>[(-)*8[+]]>)*-1])*-1
03:46:30 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 28.4
03:46:50 <Lymia> An evolver that actually /works right/ would be useful...
03:47:34 <madbr> !bfjoust flow [[>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>-][-]+]
03:47:37 <EgoBot> Score for madbr_flow: 0.0
03:48:21 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[--+]]>[(-)*8[++-]]>)*-1])*-1
03:48:24 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 14.0
03:48:31 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
03:48:33 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 29.2
03:48:36 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(-)*8[+]]>[(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
03:48:39 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 28.5
03:48:43 <tswett> It's a Rubicon machine.
03:48:45 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1])*-1
03:48:47 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 28.7
03:49:03 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
03:49:06 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 29.2
03:49:23 <Lymia> Strange how the polarity is a .5 point difference
03:49:55 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
03:49:58 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 25.3
03:50:03 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
03:50:06 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 21.4
03:50:15 <Lymia> I'm getting curious now.
03:50:23 <Lymia> Why is 2 the "magic number" for skipping decoys, apparently
03:50:29 <madbr> man this is a flood :o
03:50:33 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1
03:50:36 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 17.8
03:50:48 <zzo38> Phase distortion could be done with Csound using the phasor and table reading opcodes, I guess.
03:51:19 <madbr> zzo: you could do it with just triangle wave and distortion and ringmod for the saw wave
03:51:59 <madbr> like, clipped triangle wave + sin() distortion = phase distortion square wave
03:52:19 <zzo38> madbr: OK, I can understand.
03:52:44 <zzo38> I have no intention to add such things into my sound chip program today, though; but another day I might change things
03:52:48 <madbr> there's a bunch of other ways to do it
03:53:18 <zzo38> I even don't know if this Verilog code I wrote is a good way to write a Verilog code.
03:53:39 <madbr> it's really just about making the waveform less static by making it change, emulating the natural brightness modulation in real instruments, and making the saw/square wave bite less
03:53:46 <madbr> so any method is good :D
03:53:53 <madbr> except maybe crossfade
03:55:29 <madbr> though crossfade -> distortion table probably works
04:00:22 <zzo38> The command for Casio SZ phase distortion is "pdhalf"
04:00:53 <zzo38> The distortion amount can be adjusted at k-rate.
04:02:02 <madbr> the general principle is that you take any waveform and you change the duration of individual parts
04:02:41 <madbr> when you reduce down the duration of an edge, it gets sharper and sharper so that your wawe becomes progressively brighter
04:03:16 <madbr> you can also do it on resonance waveforms, which gives an effect not quite unlike filter resonance :3
04:05:05 <zzo38> VGM doesn't have these features, although it does have FM synthesis.
04:05:16 <madbr> yeah FM synthesis is close to that
04:05:47 <madbr> in practice you can do multiple FM oscillators from a single real oscillator
04:06:05 <madbr> when the frequencies are locked at harmonics like on the opl2/opl3
04:06:40 <madbr> and feedback gives you an effect very very close to saw wave <-> sine wave morph
04:06:54 <madbr> (tilting the waveform essentially)
04:08:50 <zzo38> OPL3 allows four operators in series (three modulators), and one of its waveforms is a square wave, and all the operators can have their own envelope, tremolo vibrato
04:09:00 <Sgeo> OPL3 sounds like a license name
04:09:21 <madbr> the real chip name is ymf-262 but that's just a bunch of numbers
04:09:24 <zzo38> There is also OPN and OPX; OPX is not currently supported in VGMCK though (but it might be the next one I add)
04:13:34 <Lymia> Currently unpacking the entire repository
04:14:22 <Arc_Koen> Lymia: do you think we all have some kind of formatting in our brain that make us set more decoys on even cells or something?
04:14:32 <madbr> reading up on OPX... looks really strange
04:25:36 <zzo38> Sometimes with chips having square wave, duty envelope is used to change the duty cycle over time
04:26:32 <madbr> I've only seen that on some roland synths (juno series, and I think jupiter 8)
04:26:46 <madbr> on c64 they do it in software ofc :D
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04:29:18 <madbr> actually you know the opl3 can do pulse width modulation? :D
04:29:59 <madbr> using the square wave as waveform for both the carrier and the modulator... it sounds pretty massive too
04:31:35 <zzo38> I thought it might do something like that
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04:45:28 <kmc> have you all seen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcDshWmhF4A
04:45:34 <kmc> adding machine made of wood and marbles
04:46:52 <elliott> how did you find this video of me
04:47:02 <Bike> learn a thing or two, babbage
04:47:51 <elliott> this guy really likes the word shall
04:48:09 <Bike> It's all mathy right
04:48:42 <elliott> whereas we have constructed an adding machine, and whereas it is made out of wood and marbles, therefore let it hereby be declared that it shall be tested out
04:49:09 <Bike> verily, that sounds pretty rad.
04:52:12 <Bike> youtube existed in 2007?!
04:55:13 <elliott> "viral videos" were a thing in 2006 already Bike!!!!
04:55:55 <Bike> man in 2006 i wasn't even alive
04:56:39 <elliott> Bike: can you come up with some new fucking captchas for the fucking wiki
04:57:48 <Bike> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/12780151/wormprogramming.jpg how about this
04:58:59 <kmc> there was a time when YouTube was an independent company hemhorraging venture capital, rather than a money sink for Google ad revenue
04:59:36 <elliott> does anyone remember how goofy youtube looked in like 2006
05:00:17 <Bike> Hm, most of the pictures I have online are very silly, and probably not suited for robot discrimination.
05:01:37 <elliott> Bike: you should really register for the wiki and you'll discover an embarrassing fact that makes you look silly right now
05:02:20 <Bike> is it the blue thing
05:03:38 <elliott> no it's... our captchas are text
05:03:45 <Bike> oh yeah i knew that
05:03:54 <Bike> i just wanted to just... look at my pictures... and stuff.
05:04:03 <elliott> that's ok Bike. i am self-centred too
05:04:16 <zzo38> If you want to make your own music with OPL3 in VGM format, I think you would need to use either VGMCK or DOSBox+AdLib Tracker+dro2vgm
05:04:21 <Bike> maybe u have more in common with bikes then u thot.
05:08:49 -!- Mucho has joined.
05:16:50 <madbr> zzo : yeah I just use adlib tracker 2 and record to mp3 straight from the soundcard jack
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05:25:10 <zzo38> Do you have any of them in VGM format though?
05:31:04 <zzo38> If I have a documentation of the format I could make the converter directly from Adlib Tracker 2 into VGM
05:31:20 <zzo38> Without requiring DOSBox
05:32:00 <HackEgo> Mucho: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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05:43:03 <Arc_Koen> elliott: how come spambots can solve our captchas
05:43:17 <elliott> by getting humans to do it for them
05:43:22 <zzo38> Maybe people manually do it!
05:43:31 <zzo38> They are not necessarily spambots.
05:43:42 <Bike> Just think. Somewhere in the world, there's a porn site that applies its captcha solutions directly to the esolang wiki.
05:44:08 <Arc_Koen> so now humans are working for spambots?
05:44:13 <elliott> Bike: some kind of mechanical turk / sweatshop type deal seems more plausible here
05:44:24 <elliott> solely because i cannot imagine someone looking up esolang information for porn
05:44:26 <zzo38> Look at the spam protection on Pin Eight and NESdev, which they say works better.
05:44:31 <elliott> like you actually have to click a link and read a paragraph to solve them
05:44:38 <kmc> yes captcha solving is a traded commodity
05:44:41 <kmc> i've seen papers on it
05:44:49 <Bike> elliott: I think you're overestimating people looking for porn.
05:44:50 <madbr> yeah there are some... porn or warez sites where they fish up some captchas and you have to solve one to get your porn
05:45:11 <elliott> if i was looking for porn i would seriously not want to click a link and learn about intercal
05:45:19 <madbr> no idea how much they generate tho
05:45:28 <elliott> i can buy it 100% for graphical captchas and stuff though
05:45:45 <Bike> You're single-handledly introducing theoretical computer science to the porn-droning masses, yo.
05:45:57 <Arc_Koen> wait, so it's actually really a human tricked into servicing a spambot
05:46:05 <kmc> http://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~savage/papers/UsenixSec10.pdf paper about the captcha solving market
05:46:14 <Bike> Arc_Koen: have you never heard of artificial artificial intelligence
05:46:15 <kmc> Arc_Koen: there are both, some people are paid to break them, some people are tricked
05:46:34 <kmc> these researchers bought captcha-breaking services in order to study the market
05:46:37 <zzo38> I never look for porn, and hardly ever for warez, but I am OK to learn INTERCAL to do it.
05:46:53 <elliott> i feel kinda sorry for the people being paid to do it
05:47:06 <Arc_Koen> well what about all those who aren't
05:47:18 <elliott> clearly we should say "psst, if you're getting paid for this, put this codeword in and we'll register an account and silently hide the edits it makes"
05:47:22 <kmc> i heard that a lot of chinese oil rig workers are also WoW gold farmers
05:47:36 <elliott> i mean they have enough english reading comprehension to answer the questions in the first place
05:47:37 <kmc> btw this provides a great way to get malware onto oil rig systems
05:47:43 <Bike> Oh I read a short story about that once. As you might expect it was a bit depressing
05:47:51 <elliott> kmc: that is a nasty can of worms
05:47:53 <Bike> kmc: hacking oil rigs as a humanitarian measure
05:48:36 <kmc> a lot of industrial systems are controlled from a Java applet running in IE6 on some desktop that some guy is also using to browse Facebook and look at porn
05:48:48 <kmc> I think the idea that these systems aren't connected to the Internet is basically a total lie
05:50:59 <Arc_Koen> elliott: if YOU don't do something soon, when Asimov's robot apocalypse finally comes, robots are gonna use humans as human shields against humans
05:51:44 <shachaf> elliott: did you kill geryon yet
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05:52:34 <kmc> i wonder what else is listed on the shady version of MTurk
05:52:53 <elliott> shachaf: i think you accidentally sent that to the wrong channel
05:53:41 <shachaf> #esoteric "the wrong channel" -- elliott
05:53:42 <kmc> not that MTurk isn't shady, but they tend to shut down tasks like "go to this restaurant's Yelp page and write that you found a rat turd in your salad"
05:58:22 <zzo38> If you do think the spam is partially automated, see if the server logs indicate the referer or user-agents or whatever else
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06:42:09 <zzo38> Apparently the spam filter on Pin Eight works much better, without any false positive either
07:25:06 <Lymia> Minecraft left me with 3GB in swap
07:46:52 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_test--: 0.0
07:56:13 <Lymia> http://files.lymiahugs.com/listing.txt
07:56:20 * Lymia made a list of every bfjoust program EgoBot ever saw
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07:59:13 <Lymia> 8675 unique programs
07:59:16 <Lymia> Including formatting variants
08:00:04 <Lymia> !bfjoust did-people-really-do-this-before!?!? http://google.com/
08:00:07 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_did-people-really-do-this-before____: 0.0
08:00:30 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
08:00:34 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 29.2
08:00:36 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
08:08:55 <fizzie> I'd think most websites have a large possibility of starting with a <.
08:10:20 <fizzie> Also, you should run through one tournament on a hill containing all your 8675 individual programs.
08:11:05 <Lymia> That's 8675^2 executions
08:11:12 <Lymia> Also, I need to filter the ones that no longer parse under gearlance out
08:11:39 <fizzie> No, it's not; you don't need to run programs against themselves.
08:12:19 <fizzie> I'd say it's somewhere around 8675*8674/2*2*21 individual bouts or so; all pairs, two polarities, 21 tape lengths.
08:13:45 <Lymia> That list basically already filters repeats-- oh.
08:13:56 <Lymia> basically executions
08:14:05 <Lymia> 8675^2 executions*
08:15:05 <fizzie> You could say it's O(n^2) executions, I'dn't've pedantic'd about that.
08:15:41 <fizzie> (I hope you can turn "I wouldn't have" into "I'dn't've"?)
08:17:28 <Lymia> http://paste.strictfp.com/37093/1fb818f41450b12966ca91326be5b03e
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08:19:12 <fizzie> I like the egojoust "security hole" of you being able to replace foo's program bar_baz by changing nick to foo_bar and submitting a baz.
08:21:28 <Lymia> !fyb does-this-still-work %%
08:23:05 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_does-this-still-work: 0.0
08:30:57 <fizzie> Lymia: Speaking of which, I sort-of fixed the (()*-1)*-1 time-wasting problem. (Loops with no "real" instruction are modified so that the repeat count becomes 0; and there had long been a bit that removed 0-repeat loops completely.)
08:31:19 <Lymia> lymia@infel:~/programming/bfjoust-evo/hill-scraper$ cat collected/11234:david_werecat_freeze
08:31:19 <Lymia> Canonical name: 11234:david_werecat_freeze
08:31:19 <Lymia> (((((((((()*-1)*-1)*-1)*-1)*-1)*-1)*-1)*-1)*-1)*-1
08:31:25 <Lymia> And guess what I found
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08:31:39 <fizzie> (Also it turned out that last bit had a problem in that (a{b}c)%0 turned into "" and not a "b".)
08:32:04 <fizzie> Heh, I didn't know it had been done.
08:36:40 <Lymia> http://paste.strictfp.com/37094/fcf7aaf9d09dbcb09edd93445c468074
08:39:02 <Lymia> I have 8496 programs
08:39:10 <Lymia> That run under gearlance and do not attempt to crash it
08:41:12 <Deewiant> So you have 1515643920 executions to do for the tournament
08:41:55 <fizzie> Current egostats page says "Simulated a total of 343748958 cycles in 45402 individual jousts for 1081 duels" -- that's 1081 from 47*46/2 -- so extrapolating from that you'd run 36086760 duels with 1515643920 jousts and around 11475287833114 cycles.
08:42:01 <fizzie> That might take a moment.
08:42:40 <fizzie> But hey, that's just 2^43 or so.
08:42:43 <Deewiant> Set up a distributed system so everybody on the channel can help.
08:42:56 <Lymia> model name: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2467M CPU @ 1.60GHz
08:42:59 <fizzie> Buy up the whole of EC2, that would also help.
08:43:32 <fizzie> I haven't benchmarked approximate bfjoust-cycles/unit-of-time numbers out of gearlance.
08:43:42 <Lymia> 11475287833114÷(1.60×1000×1000×1000) = 7172.054895696 seconds
08:44:02 <Lymia> Giving approximately 2 hours of CPU time at 1.60GHz
08:44:05 <fizzie> It's not quite that fast, I can tell you that.
08:44:06 <Deewiant> Can you do one BF Joust cycle in one CPU cycle?
08:44:14 <fizzie> Deewiant: Not with gearlance, at least.
08:44:26 <Fiora> maybe you can write a VAX instruction that does that? X3
08:44:26 <Lymia> Might need to use chainlance
08:44:40 <Lymia> fizzie, is gearlance or chainlance faster?
08:45:16 <Lymia> I have 4 cores, so.
08:45:20 <Lymia> I'm going to best on taking no more than 2 hours
08:45:24 <fizzie> Chainlance's code generation was (IIRC) kind of naive, and anyway there's that whole "two programs with synchromized execution" thing which sort-of limits optimilization opportunities.
08:45:24 <Lymia> Unless those stats are super-inaccurate
08:46:02 <fizzie> I can tell you that it takes me somewhere around 16 seconds to run those 343748958 cycles of the current hill.
08:46:36 <fizzie> That would mean around 148 hours for 11475287833114.
08:47:15 <fizzie> Though that was on a single core of an "AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 5600+", which isn't exactly the modernest thing around.
08:48:40 <Lymia> What's the clock speed of that?
08:49:26 <fizzie> But it's not just about clock speeds, you know.
08:49:51 <Lymia> lymia@infel:~/programming/bfjoust-evo/hill-scraper/final/chainlance/vis$ ./crank_hill.sh ../../programs/* | pv > results.txt
08:50:01 <Lymia> I'm generating 1MB/s of data
08:50:31 <fizzie> Uh... I'm pretty sure you can't run the egostats graph pages on a hill of 8496 programs in any reasonable way.
08:51:33 <Lymia> 9460 challenges so far
08:51:43 <fizzie> results.txt out of the normal hill is about 14 megabytes; extrapolating again, you should end up with a 500 gigabyte results.txt.
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08:52:39 <fizzie> You're over quarter of a thousandth of the way there.
08:52:42 <Lymia> -rw-r--r-- 1 lymia lymia 163M Mar 24 03:52 results.txt
08:52:57 <Lymia> Giving roughly 5534x more challenges
08:53:19 <Deewiant> I reiterate: you might want to compress that
08:53:30 <Lymia> 880 GB of output data....
08:53:40 <Lymia> I don't have a terabyte of disk space
08:53:43 <fizzie> I have to admit I wasn't entirely serious when I said you should do this thing.
08:54:17 <Deewiant> At least see how well it compresses :-/
08:54:31 <Lymia> Can the toolchain even work on compressed data
08:54:34 <Deewiant> Might go down to at most a few hundred gigabytes or something
08:54:48 <Deewiant> Maybe not but at least you'll have the results
08:54:50 <fizzie> Lymia: The "toolchain" can't work on that much data at all in any meaningful way, I'm pretty sure.
08:55:27 <fizzie> For one thing, you'd have 8496x8496 matrices plotted in 1000x1000 pixel images.
08:55:54 <Lymia> It'd be pretty, at least!
08:56:21 <Deewiant> Adding a zero to each of those 1000s shouldn't be difficult
08:56:27 <fizzie> If you *really* wanted, you could ./crank_hill_with.sh path/to/gearlance ../../programs/* -- that would generate far less output data, and it would still be possible to compute the scores.
08:56:39 <fizzie> Deewiant: It already takes up about two gigs of RAM when running.
08:57:06 <Deewiant> fizzie: Now why does it do that
08:57:24 <fizzie> I'm blaming matplotlib and scipy and numpy, but of course not myself.
08:57:43 <fizzie> Anyway, I don't want to imagine what it would do when trying to load the entire contents of that 880 GB results.txt into memory as numpy data structures.
08:58:21 <Deewiant> I see some room for improvement there
08:58:45 <fizzie> It's pretty crummy stuff.
08:59:00 <fizzie> I was just fiddling around, after all.
08:59:38 <fizzie> Since when has this Ubuntu automounting put stuff under /media/$USER/ instead of directly in /media/?
09:02:49 <Lymia> Down to 8394 programs
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09:03:01 <Lymia> After a few more proved to not parse under latest
09:05:22 <Lymia> The number of evaluations per program here
09:05:35 <Lymia> Is literally greater than the number of evaluations in one generation of my evolver.
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09:38:02 <Lymia> http://files.lymiahugs.com/results.txt
09:38:08 <Lymia> All programs vs current hill
09:42:55 <Sgeo> http://wormtube.worms2d.info/111/the_worst_shot_ever_2012
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09:44:30 <Deewiant> Highest rank for a nickname in that results.txt: http://sprunge.us/aJaO
09:45:03 <Deewiant> (Modulo the fact that nicknames can't be distinguished since _'s can be anywhere)
09:46:23 <Lymia> lymia@infel:~/programming/bfjoust-evo/hill-scraper/final$ cat list | wc -l
09:46:29 <Lymia> Reduced to the best versions of all programs with the same name
09:46:37 <Lymia> 1137 * 1136 evaluations...
09:47:12 <Lymia> Deewiant, this is against current hill.
09:48:11 <Sgeo> help I should be sleeping
09:48:24 <Sgeo> My sleep schedule is so screwed up and I don't know how to fix it I have work on Monday
09:48:49 <Lymia> Deewiant, append which program it was :p
09:48:55 <Lymia> (in case it isn't obvious, the format is changeset:filename)
09:49:00 <Lymia> (Where changeset is the filename in in-egobot.hg)
09:49:06 <Lymia> s/filename/change id/
09:49:18 <Lymia> Not the hash id, but, the revision id thing, because that's a linear history anyways
09:52:17 <fizzie> Yeah, I really shouldn't be on that list due to evo_3.
09:52:18 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
09:54:23 <Lymia> What is `slist for
09:55:36 <Lymia> http://files.lymiahugs.com/best-versions.versus.13687.txt
09:55:40 <Lymia> Filtered out old versions of programs.
09:55:58 <Lymia> The hirsutic used for "same program" is "same name"
10:00:33 <Lymia> I'm currently running best programs vs best programs
10:00:37 <Lymia> This'll take a while for obvious reasons
10:01:06 <Lymia> http://paste.strictfp.com/37095/4bae859079e54653f50d5fb3a03cc8b5
10:01:15 <Lymia> This is, obviously, partial
10:04:34 <Lymia> Given ~ 64 programs/5 min
10:04:53 <fizzie> That's weird, _s are invisible in my browser in that paste.
10:05:23 <Sgeo> Lymia, list of people to ping when Homestuck updates
10:05:41 <fizzie> You should run all valid bfjoust programs of less than, say, 100k characters, against each other.
10:09:00 <Lymia> There is a possible interesting experiment
10:14:10 <fizzie> I thought "bfjoust" and "possibly interesting" were mutually exclusive. </sarcasm>
10:14:28 <Fiora> Sgeo: that video made me run out of air
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10:16:33 <Sgeo> Fiora, have you seen prior WSE compilations?
10:16:36 <Sgeo> If not, you should
10:17:10 <Fiora> oh geez, there's more? that was amazing
10:17:45 <shachaf> fizzie: Lymia said that the experiment was possible and interesting.
10:18:10 <Lymia> I was thinking of finding the best vs hill program under 4-5 characters
10:18:11 <Sgeo> Fiora, although 2012 was the first one to use the fake replays
10:18:17 <Sgeo> I don't even know how those were made
10:18:18 <Lymia> but then I realized what it would likely be
10:18:25 <Lymia> !bfjoust best-1 (+)*-1
10:18:27 <Lymia> !bfjoust best-1 (-)*-1
10:18:30 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_best-1: 0.0
10:18:30 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_best-1: 0.0
10:18:34 <Lymia> !bfjoust best-1 (.-+)*-1
10:18:38 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_best-1: 14.0
10:19:03 <fizzie> (.-+)*-1 is already 8 characters.
10:20:11 <Fiora> Sgeo: yeah, that was really cool, someone could show what they were trying to do before their total failure to do it XD
10:20:35 <Sgeo> The game doesn't actually work like that though
10:20:50 <Sgeo> I can only assume that replays were faked for that purpose after the replays with reality were submitted
10:21:09 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_tiny: 9.6
10:21:26 <Lymia> !bfjoust tiny [>[+]]
10:21:30 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_tiny: 5.8
10:21:37 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_tiny: 9.6
10:21:47 <fizzie> Aren't [-] and [+] entirely equivalent?
10:22:12 <fizzie> Well, due to the polarity inversion thing.
10:22:37 <Fiora> does the polarity inversion thing invert one of the two programs' operations or something?
10:22:46 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream (>)*2+>--(>)*5([>>([(-)*8[+]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:22:49 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 20.6
10:23:01 <Fiora> Ah, that makes sense
10:23:06 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream >>+>-->>>>([>>([(-)*8[+]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:23:08 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 22.2
10:23:16 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream >>+>-->>>>([>([(-)*8[+]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:23:19 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 19.0
10:23:23 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream >>+>-->>>([>>([(-)*8[+]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:23:26 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 22.2
10:23:32 <Lymia> Wee golfing for size
10:23:36 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream >>+>>>-->([>>([(-)*8[+]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:23:39 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 21.5
10:23:47 <fizzie> Fiora: Technically, the programs are run with all four combinations (normal-normal, normal-inverted, inverted-normal, inverted-inverted) but due to symmetry arguments it's enough to do the first two in order to get the same results.
10:23:48 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream >>+>-->>>([>>([(+)*8[-]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:23:51 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 21.4
10:24:04 <Fiora> Ahh, that makes sense.
10:24:09 <Lymia> fizzie, isn't there a minor asymmetry?
10:24:14 <Lymia> Since 256 is an even number
10:24:19 <Lymia> The flag has to be either 127 or 128
10:24:35 <fizzie> Lymia: Starting from 128, there's 128 steps to reach zero going up or down.
10:24:40 <Fiora> Sgeo: where do I find the other videos? I can't find the actual videos for before 2012...?
10:25:00 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream (>)*8([>>([(+)*8[-]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:25:03 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 22.5
10:25:05 <fizzie> (Also, the [>[+]] above sounds likely to be equivalent to . given that it just moves away from the flag, skips the [+] loop and ends.)
10:25:13 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream (>)*7([>>([(+)*8[-]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:25:15 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 25.0
10:25:20 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream (>)*6([>>([(+)*8[-]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:25:21 <Sgeo> Fiora, http://wormtube.worms2d.info/browse/category/compilation
10:25:23 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 23.9
10:25:24 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream (>)*7([>>([(+)*8[-]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:25:27 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 25.0
10:26:48 <fizzie> !bfjoust headless_chicken (><)*50000 (Apparently I ran this earlier)*0
10:26:51 <EgoBot> Score for fizzie_headless_chicken: 7.5
10:27:12 <Sgeo> Also watch Movie of Dreadful Gameplays and Horrible Bad Lucks
10:27:58 <Lymia> -rw-r--r-- 1 lymia lymia 32 Mar 24 05:27 Lymia_stream.bfjoust
10:27:58 <Lymia> -rw-r--r-- 1 lymia lymia 31 Mar 24 04:06 atehwa_test_rush.bfjoust
10:27:58 <Lymia> -rw-r--r-- 1 lymia lymia 26 Mar 24 04:06 ais523_vibration.bfjoust
10:27:58 <Lymia> -rw-r--r-- 1 lymia lymia 23 Mar 24 04:06 david_werecat_golf.bfjoust
10:28:31 * Lymia must achieve smallest effective program!
10:28:37 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream (>)*7([>>([+[-]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:28:40 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 16.7
10:28:42 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream (>)*7([>>([-[+]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:28:45 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 16.7
10:28:49 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream (>)*7([>>([(-)*9[+]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:28:51 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 23.1
10:28:56 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream (>)*7([>>([(+)*9[-]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:28:59 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 23.1
10:29:01 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream (>)*7([>>([(-)*7[+]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:29:03 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 26.6
10:29:06 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream (>)*7([>>([(-)*5[+]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:29:09 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 23.5
10:29:12 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream (>)*7([>>([(-)*6[+]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:29:14 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 26.9
10:29:20 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream (>)*7([>>([(+)*6[-]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:29:23 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 26.9
10:29:23 <fizzie> !bfjoust the_simplest_thing (>)*9([-.]>)*21 (also something from the logs)*0
10:29:26 <EgoBot> Score for fizzie_the_simplest_thing: 20.5
10:30:01 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream (>)*7([>([(+)*6[-]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:30:04 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 21.7
10:30:06 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream (>)*7([>>>([(+)*6[-]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:30:09 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 18.5
10:30:11 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream (>)*6([>>>([(+)*6[-]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:30:13 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 20.3
10:30:23 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream (>)*7([>>([(+)*6[-.]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:30:25 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 18.6
10:30:41 <Lymia> Dunno why [-.] works so well
10:30:45 <Lymia> Clearly doesn't work so well offset
10:30:48 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream (>)*7([>>([(+)*6[-]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:30:51 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 27.6
10:31:18 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream >>+(>)*5([>>([(+)*6[-]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:31:21 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 23.6
10:31:22 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream (>)*7([>>([(+)*6[-]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:31:25 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 27.7
10:31:29 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream (>)*7([>([(+)*6[-]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:31:31 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 22.9
10:31:34 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream (>)*8([>([(+)*6[-]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:31:36 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 23.7
10:31:49 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream (>)*7([>([>>([(+)*6[-]>])*-1]>)*-1>)*-1
10:31:51 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 0.0
10:32:12 <fizzie> !bfjoust brainfuck_is_brainfuck_right http://p.zem.fi/lostkng
10:32:31 <EgoBot> Score for fizzie_brainfuck_is_brainfuck_right: 0.9
10:32:35 <fizzie> (Was there a size limit?)
10:32:45 <Lymia> I wonder what it beats
10:33:02 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
10:33:16 <Lymia> ais523_shudderlock.bfjoust vs fizzie_brainfuck_is_brainfuck_right.bfjoust
10:33:16 <Lymia> ><>>><<>>><>><>X<XX<X ><>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 10
10:33:16 <Lymia> fizzie_brainfuck_is_brainfuck_right.bfjoust wins.
10:33:30 <Lymia> lostkng acts as a rush!?
10:33:57 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream (>)*7([>([>>([(+)*6[-]>])*-1]>)*-1>)*-1
10:34:00 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 0.0
10:34:04 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream (>)*8([>([(+)*6[-]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:34:07 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 24.1
10:34:09 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream (>)*8([>>([(+)*6[-]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:34:11 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 24.5
10:34:12 <Lymia> !bfjoust stream (>)*7([>>([(+)*6[-]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:34:15 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 27.7
10:34:19 <fizzie> It also wins against Patashu_rushpolarity and ais523_very_offset_turtle, if I read the table right.
10:34:45 <fizzie> No, just test_rush and kuskelar_a_difficult_name.
10:34:53 <fizzie> I guess the table numbering was different than I thought.
10:35:13 <fizzie> Yes, I was looking at Pos and not ID. Well, anyhow.
10:35:19 <Lymia> !bfjoust dream (>)*8([>([>([(+)*6[-]>])*-1]>)*-1]>)*-1
10:35:22 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_dream: 23.3
10:35:50 <Lymia> !bfjoust dream (>)*7([>[>([(+)*6[-]>])*-1]([(+)*6[-]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:35:52 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_dream: 25.8
10:36:03 <fizzie> Personally I still think that matrix of report.txt should be sorted by position, since then it makes for PATTERNS in +ses and -ses.
10:36:07 <Lymia> !bfjoust dream (>)*7([>>([(+)*6[-]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:36:09 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_dream: 26.5
10:36:17 <Lymia> !bfjoust dream (>)*7([>>([(+)*6[-]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:36:19 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_dream: 26.5
10:36:26 <Lymia> !bfjoust dream (>)*7([>[>([(+)*6[-]>])*-1]([(+)*6[-]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:36:29 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_dream: 25.8
10:36:51 <Lymia> !bfjoust dream (>)*7([>[>]([(+)*6[-]>])*-1]>)*-1
10:36:53 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_dream: 6.3
10:37:23 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_dream: 0.0
10:37:47 <Lymia> !bfjoust gust >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
10:37:50 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_gust: 27.0
10:38:06 <Lymia> !bfjoust gust >>->>-->+>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
10:38:08 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_gust: 26.8
10:38:17 <Lymia> !bfjoust gust >>+>>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
10:38:20 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_gust: 26.7
10:38:28 <Lymia> Let's play stupid optimiza-- this is best done algorithmically, isn't it
10:38:38 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_gust: 0.0
10:38:41 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stream: 0.0
10:39:50 <fizzie> You're allowed to just leave programs there. (A list of zeros at the bottom isn't that pretty either.)
10:40:06 <Lymia> They were pushing down my other program >:p
10:40:28 <Lymia> I just realized something
10:40:36 <Lymia> If you submit the same program over and over, under, like, 15 names
10:40:39 <Lymia> Then replace them with <
10:40:47 <fizzie> That's called "gaming the system".
10:40:48 <Lymia> You can... er... well, do things to the hill
10:42:34 <fizzie> You can submit a program that does well generally, but sacrifices against your chosen competitor, and submit that under 15 names.
10:42:52 <fizzie> (Might involve more work.)
10:43:00 <Lymia> Or submit 46 copies of Omnipotence
10:43:35 <Lymia> Then submit 47 copies of a program that targets Omnipotence
10:43:41 <fizzie> Well, it's all in a repository, it can be reverted to a known-good state.
10:44:29 <fizzie> I don't think that sort of thing counts as a "real" got-#1-in-bfjoust achievement, the kind of thing that gets you free drinks at bars.
10:45:00 <fizzie> Or groupies. Or whatever. I don't know what kind of like #1-bfjoust-bestseller people live.
10:45:31 <fizzie> But I think "sex, drugs and brainfuck" is involved.
10:45:51 <Lymia> lymia@infel:~/programming/bfjoust-evo/hill-scraper/final$ cat results.txt | wc -l
10:45:55 <Lymia> Going to take forever.
10:45:58 <Lymia> 2 hours is my estimate...
10:46:23 <Lymia> All programs vs all programs.
10:46:37 <Lymia> 1) Evaluate all programs versus the current hill
10:47:02 <Lymia> 2) Take the best version of each program-- that is, the program with a certain name that scores the highest versus the current hill
10:47:14 <Lymia> 3) Do a full round robin of each best version versus each best version
10:47:40 <fizzie> Oh, right, so it's that 1137-program set you mentioned.
10:50:47 <fizzie> There's 2820 cores in our cluster, but sadly I doubt that counts as relevant research.
10:51:14 <Deewiant> I also doubt that anybody cares.
10:51:19 <Lymia> I'm using 4 cores in a single mundane machine :p
10:51:35 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's probably also being used by other people too.
10:51:41 <Lymia> About 8 hours of CPU time.
10:51:51 <fizzie> But the 1TB RAM nodes might run the statistics generation script better. :p
10:51:53 <Lymia> 8 hours * 64 = 512 CPU hours
10:52:07 <Lymia> fizzie, do you have the CPU time to run 512 CPU hours worth of processing?
10:52:14 <Deewiant> fizzie: I've run some not-very-researchy stuff there a couple of times.
10:52:21 <Lymia> On non-relevant research? :p
10:52:37 <Deewiant> It was school-related though so maybe it was close enough.
10:53:18 <fizzie> Lymia: Possibly in a technical "is-possible-to" sense, but maybe not in a "can-be-bothered" one. I need to go out for a birthday dinner thing in an hour or so.
10:53:22 <Deewiant> 512 CPU-hours is something you can run at home, that's less than a week on your 4-core.
10:53:50 <Lymia> If I had a desktop
10:54:00 <Lymia> My laptop goes into suspend often, and, in fact, is on a lap at times
10:54:15 <Lymia> I do not want to be using 4 cores in something that is on my lap
10:54:56 <fizzie> Ganglia says current load of Triton is 75%.
10:57:14 <fizzie> I pretty much suck in using SLURM, too. I don't think I can be bothered to write the scripts to do this thing. At least right now.
10:57:39 <Lymia> I plan on taking the top 100 or 150
10:57:43 <Lymia> And running it through fizzie's script
10:57:49 <Lymia> To generate a final report
11:04:09 -!- surma has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
11:06:22 <fizzie> I could run something on my workstation at work.
11:06:22 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
11:06:32 <fizzie> It's not conneceted to Condor, so it's just sitting there all nights and weekends.
11:07:36 <fizzie> Though it's just a normal 4-core box; but at least I wouldn't have to listen to the fans whirr.
11:08:23 -!- sirdancealot has joined.
11:13:02 <fizzie> Lymia: Also, results.dat (one of the outputs from parse_results.py) is a bit over twice the size of results.txt, so if you had done the full thing and gotten a terabyte results.txt, you'd also have a two-terabyte results.dat.
11:17:28 <Lymia> So, it apparently takes about 6 seconds to run 1000 evaluations of gearlance?
11:19:57 <fizzie> Lymia: The time taken really depends on the programs involved.
11:20:17 <Lymia> This is average of best-versions of course
11:20:33 <Lymia> It's obviously going to take longer with a population of zero programs
11:20:51 <Lymia> fizzie, looking at the history, you seem to have once done an evolver that combined other programs..?
11:20:57 <Lymia> How did that work? o-o
11:21:42 <fizzie> Not too well. The ones I submitted were kind of minor variations of what it started from. I've been thinking if I should dust it out one of these days.
11:22:22 <Lymia> The problem I have right now seems to be that there's not much "control" over gene activations and stuff.
11:22:33 <Lymia> Which results in even something like flow not being easy to make.
11:22:43 <Lymia> I'm not sure how to fix this without abandoning the whole system.
11:23:06 <fizzie> Also, for the evolvery stuff I had a gearlance version with a main loop that started by loading (and parsing) the hill I was testing against (for fitness), then accepted (from stdin) a set of programs and produced final scores for them all. That does provide a measurable performance advantage over to running gearlance thousands of times.
11:23:36 <Lymia> How much of a performance advantage?
11:23:45 <Lymia> I'd write my own Bfjoust implementation, but, it'd have to be in Java, which won't help much :p
11:23:45 <fizzie> I don't know how much the process startup costs are -- probably not much -- but for large opponents the parsing time can be quite a large fraction of the total runtime.
11:24:43 <fizzie> Maybe something like 25% when running something against anticipation/anticipation2, if I remember last night's gperf numbers right.
11:26:30 <fizzie> Perhaps I should write a... uh, "transmissionlance" (a transmission has multiple gears!) that'd have the right sort of interface for producing a score for individual programs against the totality of a preloaded set B.
11:26:49 <fizzie> (Note to self: better name.)
11:27:31 <Lymia> A "gearlance server"
11:27:36 <Lymia> Where you start a process
11:27:40 <Lymia> "filename a, filename b"
11:27:42 <Lymia> And get a result back
11:29:50 <fizzie> I don't think I'd want it to cache the million individuals, for elegance, so it'd need something to distinguish what's one-shot and what's fixed.
11:29:53 <fizzie> I was thinking of just "./somethinglance opponent-1 opponent-2 ..." which would parse and "compile" all the opponents, then while (1) { parse a single program from stdin, run it against the opponents, print score }.
11:29:57 <Lymia> !bfjoust >([-]>)*-1
11:29:57 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
11:30:01 <Lymia> !bfjoust feep >([-]>)*-1
11:30:27 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_feep: 15.2
11:30:40 <Lymia> !bfjoust feep >([>[-]]>)*-1
11:30:43 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_feep: 9.5
11:30:58 <Lymia> !bfjoust feep (>)*8([-]>)*-1
11:31:04 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_feep: 15.7
11:31:09 <Lymia> !bfjoust feep (>)*8([+[-]]>)*-1
11:31:12 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_feep: 17.3
11:31:13 <Lymia> This is disturbingly effective
11:31:17 <Lymia> !bfjoust feep (>)*8([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1
11:31:20 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_feep: 17.6
11:31:30 <fizzie> !bfjoust feep >([-].>)*-1 (does the original sometimes run off too fast, or how did the needs-two-cycles-of-zero and runs-off-the-edge bits interact?)*0
11:31:35 <EgoBot> Score for fizzie_feep: 13.0
11:31:55 <Lymia> !bfjoust feep (>)*8([(+)*9[-]]>)*-1
11:32:00 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_feep: 17.4
11:32:04 <Lymia> !bfjoust feep (>)*8([(+)*7[-]]>)*-1
11:32:07 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_feep: 21.7
11:32:09 <Lymia> !bfjoust feep (>)*8([(-)*7[+]]>)*-1
11:32:14 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_feep: 21.7
11:32:17 <fizzie> I was thinking if there's enough zero-time, but I suppose there's the - cycle itself, and the ].
11:32:26 <Lymia> I guess this is the effective "essence" of the flow/stream/dream series
11:32:38 <Lymia> Except without the decoy skip
11:32:48 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_feep: 0.0
11:32:59 <Lymia> !bfjoust tiny (>)*8([(-)*7[+]]>)*-1
11:33:02 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_tiny: 21.8
11:33:04 <fizzie> Why is that (>)*8 and not (>)*9 though?
11:33:09 <Lymia> !bfjoust tiny (>)*9([(-)*7[+]]>)*-1
11:33:12 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_tiny: 21.2
11:33:15 <Lymia> !bfjoust tiny (>)*8([(-)*7[+]]>)*-1
11:33:18 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_tiny: 21.7
11:33:22 <Lymia> !bfjoust tiny (>)*8([>(-)*7[+]]>)*-1
11:33:25 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_tiny: 10.5
11:33:34 <Lymia> !bfjoust tiny (>)*8([>>(-)*7[+]]>)*-1
11:33:37 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_tiny: 12.3
11:33:47 <Lymia> !bfjoust tiny (>)*7([>(-)*7[+]]>)*-1
11:33:50 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_tiny: 10.1
11:33:51 <Lymia> !bfjoust tiny (>)*8([>(-)*7[+]]>)*-1
11:33:54 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_tiny: 10.5
11:34:00 <Lymia> !bfjoust tiny (>)*7([(-)*7[+]]>)*-1
11:34:02 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_tiny: 18.2
11:34:05 <Lymia> !bfjoust tiny (>)*8([(-)*7[+]]>)*-1
11:34:07 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_tiny: 21.7
11:34:08 <Lymia> !bfjoust tiny (>)*9([(-)*7[+]]>)*-1
11:34:11 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_tiny: 21.2
11:34:13 <Lymia> !bfjoust tiny (>)*8([(-)*7[+]]>)*-1
11:34:16 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_tiny: 21.7
11:34:19 <Lymia> I have no idea why 8 is better
11:34:30 <Lymia> !bfjoust tiny (>)*10([(-)*7[+]]>)*-1
11:34:32 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_tiny: 21.2
11:34:36 <Lymia> !bfjoust tiny (>)*8([(-)*7[+]]>)*-1
11:34:40 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_tiny: 21.7
11:35:03 <fizzie> Even on the shortest tape, it can't be on the opponent's flag after (>)*8. But of course it affects the timing.
11:35:37 <Lymia> !bfjoust tiny (>)*10([(-)*7[+.]]>)*-1
11:35:40 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_tiny: 16.4
11:35:45 <Lymia> !bfjoust tiny (>)*10([+.]>)*-1
11:35:47 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_tiny: 14.9
11:35:48 <Lymia> !bfjoust tiny (>)*10([-.]>)*-1
11:35:51 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_tiny: 14.9
11:35:57 <Lymia> !bfjoust tiny (>)*10([>[-.]]>)*-1
11:36:00 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_tiny: 4.6
11:36:06 <Lymia> !bfjoust tiny (>)*8([(-)*7[+]]>)*-1
11:36:11 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_tiny: 21.7
11:37:12 <Lymia> >((----<--->---->-)*5><..<+<>><.<-+--)*3>+.--><+..>>><++..>--<>>.<(>(-)*3[+])*61++<..>><.-.>->
11:37:25 <Lymia> The old evolver tends to make a lot uglier programs than the current one...
11:37:37 <Lymia> But, on the other hand, it likely had a smoother fitness landscape...
11:37:39 <fizzie> !bfjoust tiny (>)*8([(-)*100[-]]>)*-1 (just curious)*0
11:37:48 <EgoBot> Score for fizzie_tiny: 23.3
11:37:49 <Lymia> *100 is a massive offset
11:41:01 <Lymia> !bfjoust tiny (>)*8([(-)*100[+]]>)*-1
11:41:09 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_tiny: 8.9
11:41:10 <Lymia> !bfjoust tiny (>)*8([(-)*7[+]]>)*-1
11:41:18 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_tiny: 21.3
11:41:20 <Lymia> What exactly makes (-)*100[-] effective?
11:41:45 <Lymia> !bfjoust tiny (>)*8([(-)*7[(+.)*100(-.)*100]]>)*-1
11:41:48 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_tiny: 5.6
11:42:27 <Lymia> !bfjoust tiny (>)*8([(-)*7[+]]>)*-1
11:42:29 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_tiny: 21.3
11:42:35 <Lymia> !bfjoust not-so-tiny (>)*8([(-)*7([+{}])%500[-{}])%500]]>)*-1
11:42:37 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_not-so-tiny: 0.0
11:42:43 <Lymia> !bfjoust not-so-tiny (>)*8([(-)*7([+{}])%500([-{}])%500]]>)*-1
11:42:46 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_not-so-tiny: 0.0
11:42:54 <Lymia> !bfjoust not-so-tiny (>)*8([(-)*7([+{}])%500([-{}])%500]>)*-1
11:42:57 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_not-so-tiny: 14.3
11:43:06 <Lymia> !bfjoust not-so-tiny (>)*8([(-)*7[([+{}])%500([-{}])%500]]>)*-1
11:43:09 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_not-so-tiny: 13.2
11:43:11 <Lymia> !bfjoust not-so-tiny (>)*8([(-)*7[([+{}])%128([-{}])%500]]>)*-1
11:43:12 <fizzie> Incidentally, I wonder what people who do it use for constant optimization; just some form of a general grid search, or hill-climbing, or simulated annealing, or gradient descent, or what. (Suppose the last one sounds a bit unlikely.)
11:43:14 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_not-so-tiny: 13.2
11:43:57 <Lymia> !bfjoust not-so-tiny (>)*8([(-)*7[([+{}])%256([-.{}])%500]]>)*-1
11:44:04 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_not-so-tiny: 13.2
11:44:11 <Lymia> !bfjoust not-so-tiny (>)*8([(-)*7[([+.{}])%256([+{}])%500]]>)*-1
11:44:14 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_not-so-tiny: 13.4
11:44:25 <Lymia> !bfjoust not-so-tiny (>)*8([(-)*7[([+{([+.{}])%500}])%256]]>)*-1
11:44:28 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_not-so-tiny: 17.0
11:44:40 <Lymia> !bfjoust not-so-tiny (>)*8([(-)*7[([>+{([+.{}])%500}])%256]]>)*-1
11:44:45 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_not-so-tiny: 3.0
11:44:46 <Lymia> !bfjoust not-so-tiny (>)*8([>(-)*7[([+{([+.{}])%500}])%256]]>)*-1
11:44:49 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_not-so-tiny: 10.0
11:45:38 <fizzie> !bfjoust tiny (>)*9([(-)*100[-]]>)*-1 (for this one (>)*9 was better)*0
11:45:41 <EgoBot> Score for fizzie_tiny: 23.5
11:48:07 <Lymia> !bfjoust SURELY THIS WORKS BETTER IN RED (>)*8([>(-)*7[([+{([+.{}])%500}])%256]]>)*-1
11:48:10 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia__: 9.7
11:50:15 <fizzie> I should probably at some point also update the egostats plots with some of the d3 neatness that I put in the esostats.
11:50:49 <Sgeo> I think Wyldryde is dead
11:51:28 <fizzie> E.g. the top-7 heatmap plots and such only show 7 for clarity, but with some client-side plotting they could easily show all, and some interactive highlighting could show the program you want.
11:52:32 <fizzie> It could do something like that http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/people_stats.html or whatnot.
11:53:21 <Sgeo> Oh, it's now AlphaChat
11:53:54 <fizzie> Ooh, I haven't updated ircvis/esoteric since early March.
11:56:43 <fizzie> There seems to be a curious sort of a vaguely monthly cycle for the last few months in the weekly average of http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/fig/activity_lines_year.png there.
11:58:05 <Lymia> lymia@infel:~/programming/bfjoust-evo/hill-scraper/final$ cat results.txt | wc -l
11:58:05 <Lymia> lymia@infel:~/programming/bfjoust-evo/hill-scraper/final$ ls best-versions/ | wc -l
11:58:12 <Lymia> It's down to two cores left working
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12:08:38 <Lymia> Accidentally reran the command.
12:08:45 <Lymia> time to rerun about 100 programs x.x
12:15:33 <Lymia> !bfjoust idiot (>[-]+>[-]-)*-1
12:15:37 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_idiot: 15.0
12:15:45 <Lymia> !bfjoust idiot (>(+)*8[-]+>(+)*8[-]-)*-1
12:15:49 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_idiot: 3.6
12:15:54 <Lymia> !bfjoust idiot (>[(+)*8[-]]+>[(+)*8[-]]-)*-1
12:15:58 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_idiot: 15.9
12:16:07 <Lymia> !bfjoust idiot (>[(+)*8[-]]+>[(+)*8[-]]--)*-1
12:16:10 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_idiot: 13.3
12:16:14 <Lymia> !bfjoust idiot (>[(+)*8[-]]++>[(+)*8[-]]-)*-1
12:16:17 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_idiot: 12.2
12:16:22 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_idiot: 0.0
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12:23:00 <Lymia> !bfjoust idiot (>)*8(>[(+)*8[-]]+>[(+)*8[-]]-)*-1
12:23:03 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_idiot: 7.6
12:23:10 <Lymia> !bfjoust idiot >>>>(>[(+)*8[-]]+>[(+)*8[-]]-)*-1
12:23:13 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_idiot: 10.2
12:23:15 <Lymia> !bfjoust idiot >(>[(+)*8[-]]+>[(+)*8[-]]-)*-1
12:23:18 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_idiot: 15.3
12:23:23 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_idiot: 0.0
12:23:40 <Lymia> !bfjoust hana-no-sei (>)*9([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1
12:23:44 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hana-no-sei: 17.1
12:23:49 <Lymia> !bfjoust hana-no-sei (>)*9([(+)*7[-]]>)*-1
12:23:51 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hana-no-sei: 21.0
12:23:55 <Lymia> !bfjoust hana-no-sei (>)*9([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1
12:23:58 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hana-no-sei: 23.8
12:24:01 <Lymia> !bfjoust hana-no-sei (>)*9([(+)*5[-]]>)*-1
12:24:04 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hana-no-sei: 21.2
12:24:37 <Lymia> !bfjoust hana-no-sei (>)*9([>([(+)*6[-]])*-1]>)*-1
12:24:40 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hana-no-sei: 6.5
12:24:46 <Lymia> !bfjoust hana-no-sei (>)*9([>>([(+)*8[-]])*-1]>)*-1
12:24:49 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hana-no-sei: 6.9
12:24:57 <Lymia> !bfjoust hana-no-sei (>)*8([>>([(+)*8[-]])*-1]>)*-1
12:25:02 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hana-no-sei: 8.8
12:25:08 <Lymia> !bfjoust hana-no-sei (>)*9([(-)*6[+]]>)*-1
12:25:11 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hana-no-sei: 23.8
12:25:17 <Lymia> !bfjoust hana-no-sei (>)*9([(+)*4[-]]>)*-1
12:25:21 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hana-no-sei: 20.7
12:25:24 <Lymia> !bfjoust hana-no-sei (>)*9([(-)*6[+]]>)*-1
12:25:27 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hana-no-sei: 23.8
12:25:28 <Lymia> !bfjoust hana-no-sei (>)*8([(-)*6[+]]>)*-1
12:25:31 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hana-no-sei: 22.6
12:25:34 <Lymia> !bfjoust hana-no-sei (>)*9([(-)*6[+]]>)*-1
12:25:36 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hana-no-sei: 23.8
12:25:52 <EgoBot> Score for FreeFull_megakarp: 16.1
12:26:30 <FreeFull> !bfjoust megakarp >([-]>>[-]<)*-1
12:26:38 <EgoBot> Score for FreeFull_megakarp: 5.8
12:27:40 <Lymia> !bfjoust hana-no-sei (>[(-)*6[+]])*-1
12:27:43 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hana-no-sei: 15.1
12:27:48 <Lymia> !bfjoust hana-no-sei (>)*9([(-)*6[+]]>)*-1
12:27:51 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hana-no-sei: 23.4
12:27:53 <Lymia> !bfjoust hana-no-sei (>)*10([(-)*6[+]]>)*-1
12:27:56 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hana-no-sei: 21.0
12:27:57 <Lymia> !bfjoust hana-no-sei (>)*9([(-)*6[+]]>)*-1
12:28:00 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hana-no-sei: 23.4
12:28:07 <Lymia> !bfjoust hana-no-sei (>)*9([(-)*6[+.]]>)*-1
12:28:11 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hana-no-sei: 20.8
12:28:13 <Lymia> !bfjoust hana-no-sei (>)*9([(-)*6[++]]>)*-1
12:28:16 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hana-no-sei: 16.9
12:28:19 <Lymia> !bfjoust hana-no-sei (>)*9([(-)*6[+-+]]>)*-1
12:28:24 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hana-no-sei: 17.2
12:28:25 <Lymia> !bfjoust hana-no-sei (>)*9([(-)*6[+]]>)*-1
12:28:28 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hana-no-sei: 23.4
12:28:33 <Lymia> !bfjoust hana-no-sei (>)*9([(-)*6[+]>]>)*-1
12:28:37 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hana-no-sei: 25.3
12:28:40 <Lymia> !bfjoust hana-no-sei (>)*9([(-)*6[+]>>]>)*-1
12:28:45 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hana-no-sei: 20.6
12:28:48 <Lymia> !bfjoust hana-no-sei (>)*9([(-)*6[+]>]>)*-1
12:28:55 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hana-no-sei: 25.3
12:29:10 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
12:29:15 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 29.5
12:29:18 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow (>)*7(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
12:29:21 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 27.4
12:29:33 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]>]>)*-1])*-1
12:29:36 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 27.4
12:29:46 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]>]>)*-1])*-1
12:29:49 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>([(+)*8[-]>]>)*-1])*-1
12:29:49 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 27.4
12:29:52 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 24.5
12:29:55 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
12:29:58 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 29.5
12:30:16 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->-([>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]>)*-1
12:30:20 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 19.4
12:30:24 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->+([>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]>)*-1
12:30:27 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 20.2
12:30:34 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->+>([>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]>)*-1
12:30:36 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 28.9
12:30:43 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>-->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
12:30:45 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 29.4
12:30:53 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->+(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
12:30:56 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 28.9
12:31:05 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>(-)*30>++>->(+)*40(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
12:31:12 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 17.0
12:31:14 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->+(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
12:31:17 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 28.9
12:31:24 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
12:31:28 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 29.5
12:31:32 <Lymia> Bleh. Evolver gets to try to improve it further
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12:48:07 <oerjan> <Arc_Koen> and did oerjan just left to go on a date? <-- no?
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12:59:20 <oerjan> @tell madbr Indeed, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbolic_geometry#Circles.2C_disks.2C_spheres_and_balls gives the formula for the area of a hyperbolic disk as 2*pi*R^2*(cosh (r/R)-1) where r is the radius of the circle; that is clearly exponential in the radius.
13:00:12 <fizzie> !perl print chr(hex('2C'))
13:00:36 <fizzie> "Circles, disks, spheres and balls" is probably a title of something.
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13:02:50 <fizzie> Updated http://zem.fi/egostats/ now that things settled down a little.
13:03:16 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
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13:05:07 <fizzie> Uh... what happened to http://zem.fi/egostats/plot_cycles.png now? That can't be right.
13:05:12 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
13:06:11 <fizzie> @tell fizzie (later) to figure out what's up with that.
13:06:25 <fizzie> lambdabot: I mean't you'd remind me later! Sheesh.
13:08:12 <fizzie> You mea, or sometimes you mea not.
13:09:11 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
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13:11:05 <Lumpio-> !bfjoust slow_and_painful_suicide [-......]
13:11:08 <EgoBot> Score for Lumpio-_slow_and_painful_suicide: 6.4
13:11:48 <oerjan> @tell fizzie (later) to figure out what's up with that.
13:13:51 <oerjan> !bfjoust even_more_painful ((-)*127.)*-1
13:13:54 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_even_more_painful: 7.9
13:14:43 <oerjan> !bfjoust even_more_painful ((-)*85.)*-1
13:14:47 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_even_more_painful: 7.4
13:16:22 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
13:16:27 <oerjan> @tell madbr Also from another section: "Another visible property is exponential growth. In Circle Limit III, for example, one can see that the number of fishes within a distance of n from the center rises exponentially. The fishes have equal hyperbolic area, so the area of a ball of radius n must rise exponentially in n."
13:17:27 <oerjan> "The art of crochet has been used to demonstrate hyperbolic planes with the first being made by Daina Taimina,[6] whose book Crocheting Adventures with Hyperbolic Planes won the 2009 Bookseller/Diagram Prize for Oddest Title of the Year."
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13:39:28 <Lymia> !bfjoust true-suicide >-<[-....]
13:39:31 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_true-suicide: 5.4
13:39:36 <Lymia> !bfjoust true-suicide >->-<<[-....]
13:39:38 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_true-suicide: 1.8
13:39:40 <Lymia> !bfjoust true-suicide >->-<<[-...]
13:39:43 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_true-suicide: 1.8
13:39:44 <Lymia> !bfjoust true-suicide >->-<<[-..]
13:39:47 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_true-suicide: 3.1
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13:51:39 <quintopia> more decoys will be worse for that thing Lymia
13:52:03 <quintopia> because the tripwire avoiders will skip it
13:53:05 <Lymia> quintopia, the idea is not to win :p
13:55:09 <Lymia> Without being so unsubtle and inelegant!
13:57:02 <quintopia> !bfjoust die >>(+)*30<(-)*30<(-)*128
13:57:05 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_die: 0.5
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14:46:17 * Sgeo is back to torturing norns
14:48:48 <Sgeo> Artificial life things
14:48:51 <Sgeo> creatureswiki.net
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14:57:25 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norns
14:57:25 <lambdabot> Title: Norns - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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15:56:35 <mroman> nortti: Are you the guy who wrote langtons ant in blsq?
15:56:46 <mroman> or was that nooga, nooodl?
16:15:43 <Lymia> fizzie, your script appears to crash on just 100 programs
16:16:30 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
16:23:19 <Lymia> fizzie, complaint!!
16:23:23 <Lymia> Your program eats unbounded memory
16:23:54 <Deewiant> Lymia: He said it takes 2 GB on the current hill
16:24:28 <Deewiant> So if you have 2.5 times the amount of programs, presumably it'll take at least 5 GB
16:31:06 -!- Bike has joined.
16:33:55 <fizzie> Lymia: No warranty, express or implied, not even a warranty of fitness for a particular purpose.
16:33:55 <lambdabot> fizzie: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:34:48 <Lymia> fizzie, it doesn't, like
16:34:50 <Lymia> Have to leak memory
16:34:59 <Lymia> It leaks a very very significant amount of memory
16:35:06 <Lymia> You should feel bad
16:35:09 <fizzie> Lymia: No warranty, express or implied, not even a warranty of fitness for a particular purpose.
16:35:22 <Deewiant> Does it actually leak or just use a lot
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16:35:35 <fizzie> Deewiant: It uses more and more memory for the individual per-program plots.
16:35:58 <fizzie> Possibly it needs some kind of a matplotlib explicit figure-close.
16:36:48 <fizzie> Lymia: Try adding a plt.close() after the savefig() call in def plot.
16:37:10 <Lymia> I added an os.path.exists call instead >_>
16:37:36 <fizzie> (Though it's all completely stupid. It should be returning a figure handle from plt.figure, and when that figure goes out of scope, deallocating all relevant stuff.)
16:37:54 <fizzie> (But I suppose it's been written in some sort of a MATLABish way.)
16:37:58 * Lymia is uploading all 41MB to her VPS
16:39:22 <fizzie> Anyway, it doesn't eat *unbounded* memory, there's certainly a bound.
16:39:35 <fizzie> Also, adding that plt.close() I mentioned where I mentioned seems to have fixed the memory use problems for me.
16:39:49 <Lymia> It eats unbounded memory
16:40:07 <fizzie> No, no; if you provide it with an infinite amount of memory, it will not eat all of it.
16:40:41 <fizzie> Anyway, I just fixed it, so there.
16:41:36 <Lymia> Deewiant, except malloc((unsigned int)-1)
16:41:47 <Lymia> (assuming approprate addressing size)
16:42:30 <fizzie> I've pushed a working update_stats.py now. At least based on a very quick test it didn't seem to eat any more memory while doing the per-program plots than what it does, initially.
16:42:33 <Bike> casually takes over the entire address space
16:42:34 <Deewiant> On this system that'll allocate half of the available 8 gigs
16:42:52 <Deewiant> Well, assuming you write something into it; as-is it'll allocate very little
16:43:07 <lambdabot> oerjan said 3h 31m 19s ago: (later) to figure out what's up with that.
16:43:14 <fizzie> I think I should figure out what's up with that.
16:45:12 <fizzie> These days this four gigabytes is just constant swapping. :/ :\ It's stupid.
16:45:18 <Lymia> https://files.lymiahugs.com/stats/
16:45:40 <Lymia> Best 100 programs (with some hirsutics to do this in under a day) ever on the hill
16:46:02 <Lymia> Is there a way to increase the image sie
16:46:51 * Lymia takes down due to FAILURE
16:47:15 <lambdabot> *** "hirsute" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
16:47:15 <lambdabot> adj 1: having or covered with hair; "Jacob was a hairy man"; "a
16:47:15 <lambdabot> hairy caterpillar" [syn: {hairy}, {haired}, {hirsute}]
16:47:32 <fizzie> Lymia: see "def plot", plt.figure(figsize=(10, 10), dpi=100) -- that's where the 1000x1000 comes from.
16:47:49 <fizzie> Lymia: You can try just putting a larger figsize in, though it could be that it breaks some things.
16:48:48 <Lymia> You already broke stuff with fixed size font
16:49:19 <Lymia> Doubling size seems to have fixed it?
16:49:47 <fizzie> Have I specified a fixed size font anywhere?
16:50:46 <fizzie> I don't think I've specified any font sizes at all, except "small" for some plots.
16:51:19 <Lymia> fizzie, where does plot_cycles get its size?
16:52:00 <fizzie> Oh, that's just "a bit wider than it's tall instead of the default square" setting.
16:52:30 <fizzie> I don't really know why it's non-square, to be honest, since it's got labels on both sides.
16:53:13 <fizzie> I think I originally only had labels on the left side, that's why it's got that custom size.
16:53:32 <fizzie> You could just not set a custom size there, it would make as much sense.
16:54:02 <fizzie> cycleh and cyclewl also seem to set their own (non-square) sizes.
16:54:18 <Lymia> It seems to be unused
16:54:50 <fizzie> The 'w' and 'l' refer to wins and losses.
16:55:13 <fizzie> I guess it's like the regular cycles, except it's two matrices, one for wins and one for losses.
16:55:22 <fizzie> Probably there weren't any sufficiently interesting patterns in it.
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16:57:29 <Lymia> It doesn't include a lot of programs
16:58:01 <fizzie> Lymia: There's a per-program (per-tape-length) tapeabs plot too, the ptapeabs one.
16:58:09 <fizzie> Lymia: They *do* have descriptions.
16:58:21 <fizzie> "Absolute values (magnitude of differences from 0) left on the tape at
16:58:21 <fizzie> the end of the match, as seen from the viewpoint of the 7 best
16:58:21 <fizzie> programs, averaged over all opponents, tape lengths and polarities.
16:58:22 <fizzie> See per-program statistics for single-program per-tape-length tables."
16:59:02 <fizzie> It's got the top 7 only, in order for not to be an unreadable mess, though see earlier comment re client-side interactive plots.
16:59:50 <fizzie> Re the thing with which something is up, it's curious; the 47x1974 "cycles" array is just fine, with maximum cell value of 100000; but the 47x47 dcycles -- which is just supposed to be a per-duel sum version -- has a number of entries that are really close to 2^32; I'm talking 4295065266 and 4294969708 and such. That's a strange.
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17:05:50 <fizzie> That seems to come directly from cranklance, in fact. I wonder how I've managed to mess that up.
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17:13:23 <fizzie> Er. I just added a debugging printf statement, and the cycle count changed from c4294969334 to c90466. I think I have a buggy.
17:26:21 <fizzie> Things are just randomly changing AAAAA
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17:27:36 <fizzie> Deewiant: That was the first thing I did; got no errors. I'm trying to browse the documentation on what kind of more extended checks it had.
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17:28:08 <fizzie> "All heap blocks were freed -- no leaks are possible" "ERROR SUMMARY: 0 errors from 0 contexts (suppressed: 2 from 2)".
17:29:15 <Deewiant> And the other sanitizers, I guess
17:29:29 <fizzie> clang doesn't seem to want to compile the nested functions in it.
17:31:11 <Deewiant> gcc 4.8 added some sanitizers as well, but you probably don't have that.
17:31:22 <Sgeo> I killed a lot of norns to find a cure for a genetic condition that I created.
17:32:33 <fizzie> There's soem errors from valgrind --tool=exp-sgcheck.
17:33:13 <Deewiant> Oh, it has a stack memory checker? I didn't know that.
17:33:40 <fizzie> It's been experimental quite a while, I don't know if they're working on it very much.
17:34:49 <fizzie> These line numbers are really useful, what with a 30-line macro on that line. (Yes, yes.)
17:35:18 <olsner> without line numbers you wouldn't even know that much
17:35:34 <Deewiant> I question the quality of this code
17:35:55 <fizzie> Expected: global array "scores" of size 240 in object with soname "NONE" Actual: unknown Actual: is 0 after Expected -- I guess that might be trying to say I'm writing past the end of something.
17:36:05 <Deewiant> In fact I don't need to, it's already in question since it seems to have some stack corruption issues causing inconsistent behaviour
17:36:21 <fizzie> I've never noticed anything like that before.
17:36:54 <fizzie> This array, it's too small.
17:37:00 <fizzie> How the foo I've not noticed it before?
17:37:13 <fizzie> Well, at least it's only part of the statistics stuff in cranklance, not in gearlance at all.
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17:37:58 <fizzie> Now there are no more sgcheck errors, and the cycle counts and such also work again.
17:37:58 <Deewiant> I recall spending a few days culminating in filing a compiler bug, all due to "this array, it's too small".
17:38:38 <Deewiant> At least the bug didn't stay open long enough for anybody to humiliate me further.
17:38:41 <fizzie> I had a scores[2][MAXTAPE] out of which I was accessing the rectangle of [0][MINTAPE] to [1][MAXTAPE], inclusive.
17:39:25 <fizzie> I think I was worried I'd make an off-by-one-error if I tried to make that scores[2][MAXTAPE-MINTAPE+1] and access [0][0] to [1][MAXTAPE-MINTAPE], or at least forget a -MINTAPE somewhere.
17:40:24 <fizzie> It's immediately followed by the long long cycles, which probably explains all those 2^32's.
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17:47:26 <fizzie> Lymia: You'll want to update your cranklance to fix what was discussed above, if you're doing cranking.
17:51:59 <zzo38> Is there a way to get a Verilog code to run fast enough on software to emulate a sound chip? They said it doesn't.
17:53:54 <ais523> zzo38: CPUs are very bad at emulating VHDL or Verilog quickly
17:53:59 <ais523> the execution model is completely different
17:54:07 <ais523> normally, a CPU is O(n) slower than an FPGA would be
17:54:20 <ais523> (this is why Verilog and VHDL aren't normally used to write CPU software)
17:55:15 <Arc_Koen> I might want to read everything there is to read concerning BFJoust and then try to get good at it
17:56:06 <zzo38> ais523: Yes I know it would be slower, but I would be wonder if there would be a way to optimize it to make it change everything around so that it is like a C code, so that you do not have to write and maintain two programs.
17:56:35 <ais523> zzo38: I'm working on that sort of thing as part of my PHD
17:56:41 <ais523> but I don't think it's particularly possible at the moment
17:56:51 <ais523> you could look at SystemC; it doesn't actually work for that purpose, but people claim it does
17:56:58 <ais523> Arc_Koen: you can start here: http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies
17:57:15 <zzo38> ais523: Will you make your PhD public?
17:57:25 <ais523> zzo38: the university will probably make it public
17:57:34 <ais523> and I think I have the copyright for the thesis itself
17:57:52 <zzo38> Also, if you know about Verilog codes, can you tell me if this is good or something is wrong with this? http://sprunge.us/MEOK
17:57:58 <ais523> there's also a research compiler online, which has source available although it isn't open source
17:58:33 <ais523> zzo38: normally you'd put everything on the same clock
17:58:34 <zzo38> But can the PhD be having a code which is open source?
17:58:52 <ais523> hardware can't easily handle the leading edge of arbitrary signals
17:58:57 <ais523> and it would be possible to write open source code for that
17:59:05 <ais523> just I couldn't because of the agreement I have with my employers
17:59:09 <ais523> someone else would have to do it, from scratch
17:59:32 <ais523> zzo38: anyway, you have three different signals you're taking the positive edge of there
17:59:43 <zzo38> ais523: Apparently Knuth was able to do it due to literate programming?
17:59:46 <ais523> that doesn't work in hardware (typical synthesizers will complain at 2)
17:59:50 <zzo38> ais523: OK, how do you suggest I fix?
18:00:07 <ais523> zzo38: you use registers to remember the values of the signals at the last clock edge
18:00:15 <ais523> and at each clock edge, you check to see if the values have changed from 0 to 1
18:00:20 <ais523> and then remember the new value
18:00:34 <zzo38> Other than the clock, I don't really care about the clock edge, I just want it to do when the signal is high.
18:00:47 <zzo38> Is there a code for that in Verilog?
18:01:17 <Arc_Koen> !bfjoust big_fat_decoy >((+)*128>)*5>>>([-]>)*-1
18:01:20 <EgoBot> Score for Arc_Koen_big_fat_decoy: 8.6
18:01:34 <Arc_Koen> !bfjoust big_fat_decoy >((+)*128>)*5>>>([-[-]]>)*-1
18:01:37 <EgoBot> Score for Arc_Koen_big_fat_decoy: 5.9
18:01:54 <Arc_Koen> !bfjoust big_fat_decoy >((+)*128>)*2>>>>>>([-]>)*-1
18:01:57 <EgoBot> Score for Arc_Koen_big_fat_decoy: 18.0
18:02:13 <Arc_Koen> !bfjoust big_fat_decoy >((+)*128>)*1>>>>>>>([-]>)*-1
18:02:15 <EgoBot> Score for Arc_Koen_big_fat_decoy: 15.4
18:02:43 <Arc_Koen> !bfjoust big_fat_decoy >((+)*128>)*3>>>>>([-]>)*-1
18:02:46 <EgoBot> Score for Arc_Koen_big_fat_decoy: 9.2
18:04:37 <Arc_Koen> !bfjoust big_fat_decoy (>(+)*128)*2+>>>>>>>([-]>)*-1
18:04:40 <EgoBot> Score for Arc_Koen_big_fat_decoy: 18.1
18:04:41 <ion> Paska is Finnish for “shit”. http://www.themarthablog.com/2008/03/paska-a-special-bread-that-i-used-this-past-weekend.html
18:05:13 <zzo38> ais523: Is there anything else wrong with this program other than that, though? And can you tell me, is there a way to just make it when it is high, rather than by edge? I don't know if there is such a thing, that is why I didn't do
18:05:37 <Arc_Koen> wait, there were 47 programs on the hill yesterday (not counting the challenger). Now report.txt tells me there are only 46...
18:05:56 <ais523> zzo38: check to see if it's high at each clock edge
18:06:16 <ais523> that's for writing synchronous code, which is the easiest way to write it normally
18:06:23 <ais523> asynchronous code exists but is very hard to write properly
18:06:35 <ais523> Arc_Koen: you probably want to use a reverse decoy setup
18:07:01 <ais523> otherwise, you do (+)*128 to set one decoy, and by the time you start setting the second, the opponent has already seen that cell's 0 and so knows it isn't a flag
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18:07:08 <ais523> Arc_Koen: no, you write the decoy nearest to the opponent first
18:07:37 <fizzie> ion: At work they had a brand of coffee beans that was something very close to "paska". It made for the obvious jokes.
18:08:21 <zzo38> ais523: OK, I could do like that; but what if the clock is not synchronized for some reason?
18:08:32 <ais523> zzo38: you use the same clock for everything
18:08:39 <ais523> if you're trying to interface with someone else's circuit
18:08:40 <Arc_Koen> !bfjoust reverse_decoy >>(+)*128<(+)*128>>>>>>>>([-]>)*-1
18:08:43 <EgoBot> Score for Arc_Koen_reverse_decoy: 11.4
18:08:46 <ais523> then normally they provide an appropriate clock to use as well
18:09:29 <ais523> you normally want to check the documentation, it often says exactly what happens when relative to the clock
18:09:51 <zzo38> ais523: OK, I understand, now. Now, is there anything else with this program that should be fixed?
18:10:21 <ais523> I didn't understand all of it, I'm not an expert at Verilog
18:10:25 <zzo38> This program is not really designed to interface with another chip, and it is not an emulation of an existing chip either, so there is no documentation.
18:10:25 <ais523> but I didn't see any other obvious problems
18:10:26 <Arc_Koen> ais523: then I would be tempted to write a reverse attack as well... but there's the risk of falling of the edge
18:10:51 <ais523> Arc_Koen: yeah, the reason reverse decoy setup works is that there is no real way to write a reverse attack
18:11:10 <ais523> the best you can do is skip the first nonzero cell in the hope it's a decoy
18:11:12 <zzo38> ais523: What part didn't you understand? I am not expert either, I would like to know which part you didn't understand, anyways.
18:11:22 <ais523> Arc_Koen: anyway, you might want to use http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/ for testing your programs
18:11:31 <ais523> zzo38: I'm only really used to wire/reg and digital circuits
18:11:37 <ais523> I don't know what "channel" means
18:11:41 <Arc_Koen> to avoid flooding the channel?
18:12:00 <Deewiant> Arc_Koen: And to get better info about what's going on
18:12:20 <zzo38> ais523: "Channel" here is calling another module
18:12:50 <ais523> also, you don't really do "calls" in VHDL/Verilog; the module syntax is just implemented as inlining
18:12:55 <zzo38> (I don't know why the instance is required to have a name, but it says it does. I can understand how it can be helpful to have a name for debugging, but I don't know why it requires a name.)
18:13:02 <ais523> Arc_Koen: that wasn't to do with flooding, it was advice to help you understand your code
18:13:20 <ais523> you're not flooding, but using egojsout or juiced or the like is pretty much essential to understand why your code is winning or losing
18:13:28 <Arc_Koen> hmmm I'm not sure I understand the pretty diagrams that egosjout is showing me
18:13:41 <zzo38> ais512: Well, yes, probably it would have to be inlined to program a FPGA or make a ASIC
18:13:59 <ais523> Arc_Koen: it's a picture of the tape
18:14:02 <Arc_Koen> !bfjoust self_defense (-)*128(+-)*-1
18:14:05 <ais523> first program is starting from the left, second from the right
18:14:06 <EgoBot> Score for Arc_Koen_self_defense: 23.2
18:14:12 <ais523> Arc_Koen: I remember writing that program
18:14:21 <ais523> it didn't do so well the first time
18:14:27 <ais523> on the hill more recently, it did so well that I wrote anticipation2
18:14:35 <ais523> which is a really complex version of the same idea
18:14:57 <Arc_Koen> ais523: hmmm well then all the programs I tried against were defensive
18:15:17 <Arc_Koen> I was trying against one of quintopia and at some point the blue pointer stopped moving at all
18:15:29 <ais523> Arc_Koen: "simple" is a good test
18:15:58 <ais523> alternatively, there are various poke-based rushes that were doing very well a while ago
18:16:11 <ais523> things like slowpoke, space_elevator, and furry_furry_strapon_pegging_girls
18:16:27 <ais523> although people have started to get better at beating them
18:16:57 <Arc_Koen> so what's the series of > and < that appear when I hit run?
18:17:08 <ais523> it's a list of which program wins on each tape length
18:17:12 <ais523> short tapes are on the left, long tapes on the right
18:17:30 <ais523> and two rows because the programs are run with both polarities
18:17:35 <ais523> like, first it runs as normal
18:17:45 <ais523> then it swaps + and - in one of the prorgams (doesn't matter which) and runs again
18:18:24 <Arc_Koen> well I'm gonna have dinner and then I'll read bfjoust_strategies
18:22:57 <fizzie> Deewiant: The corresponding array, with the identical name, was scores[2][MAXTAPE+1] in gearlance. I must have fixed the very same bug once before, and not propagated the fix to cranklance.
18:23:50 <Deewiant> fizzie: Insert rant about having two separate codebases with significant shared content here.
18:24:39 <fizzie> Deewiant: I've been thinking about merging them, but it'd mean a pile of #ifdef's. (Or some other kind of conditional compilation.)
18:25:42 <fizzie> Deewiant: Here's git log for the commit that fixed it in gearlance: http://sprunge.us/WAAF
18:26:09 <fizzie> Yeah, I suppose this whole episode is kind of a +1 in favour of merging the things.
18:26:53 <fizzie> They are pretty much identical, cranklance just has a pile of statistics-collection in the actual execution unit.
18:27:46 <zzo38> Is this better? http://sprunge.us/ccJB Now I have it setting Volume twice in one block, though, and I don't know if it would cause a problem. It does compile fine in Icarus Verilog, though.
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18:52:48 <elliott> fizzie: I wonder if you could do a thing to run the two BF Joust programs more parallel-y.
18:53:08 <elliott> you only have to "sync up" on a branch, or I guess a win condition
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18:57:09 <zzo38> According to Wikipedia, "[Codabar] was designed to be accurately read even when printed on dot-matrix printers..." and is used in library books and cards; from my own testing, I have confirmed that it uses Luhn checksums (although in the ones I have seen, there is a space before it, unlike the example in Wikipedia).
18:57:34 <zzo38> However, I once tried printing one on a inkjet printer and the barcode readers in the library would not recognize it. Is a laser printer required?
18:58:28 <fizzie> I wonder how much that would help, performance-wise. (Also, it sounds like you'd have to be somewhat careful about any change to anyone's flag, in case it ends up as zero, unless you want to really bump the fanciness level up and implement speculative execution.)
18:58:36 <zzo38> I compared the printout to my own library card, and the bars are identical, but maybe ink printer is not accurate enough? Can you tell me if this is the case?
18:58:40 <elliott> that's what I meant by win condition
18:58:46 <elliott> though speculative execution would be fun too
18:59:05 <elliott> really the current stuff runs a maximum match length pretty much as fast as anyone needs, but thinking about ways to make it even faster are fun, right
19:00:09 <fizzie> I suppose it is a topic of interest to people writing bfjoust evaluators too.
19:02:12 <elliott> I guess faster performance matters for evolvers still
19:03:36 <zzo38> Do you know if it would be able to read barcodes from a computer display?
19:03:36 <fizzie> Well, depending on the definition of "matters", but more generations is more good.
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19:27:42 <Arc_Koen> quintopia: daylight saving time?
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20:00:40 <Arc_Koen> The potential ambiguity is with [ or ] on the same cycle as + or -; in such cases, the flow control command sees the value before, rather than after, the increment or decrement.
20:01:38 <Arc_Koen> I think it would work better than (-)*128(+-)*-1 if the flow control command could see the value after the increment/decrement, rather than before
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20:19:19 -!- oerjan has set topic: The 17th vigintile welcoming channel on Freenode. You have been warned. | <Taneb> #esoteric is supposed to be about esoteric programming languages, but is really a couple of dozen people being weird | Newsflash: fungot has been writing spam for money. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:23:00 -!- oerjan has set topic: The 17th vigintile welcoming channel on Freenode. You have been warned. | <Taneb> #esoteric is supposed to be about esoteric programming languages, but is really a couple of dozen people being weird | Newsflash: fungot has been writing spam for chips. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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20:39:37 <Taneb> Had a great weekend :)
20:39:58 <Bike> a topical weekend
20:40:08 <olsner> fungot: how many chips? did you like them?
20:40:09 <fungot> olsner: looking thanks. i would probably have called it loop. when you read the article i propose a new system: fnord bell pc ( fnord slow) :o
20:41:15 <oerjan> elliott: "What is printed by the HQ9+ program "HQ"?" "What is the only primitive of Subtle cough?" "In which year was Befunge invented?" "Who invented Befunge?" "What language was used to produce the first Malbolge "Hello, world!" program?"
20:42:17 <elliott> oerjan: unfortunately admins cannot add new captchas so I cannot use these contributions to taunt you.
20:43:51 <Taneb> "Hello World\nHQ", 1993, Chris Pressey, Lisp?
20:44:12 <elliott> no, 1993 is not the only primitive of subtle cough
20:44:38 <elliott> i wouldn't go for the first or last ones there i think; first one relies on finnicky details like punctuation and such, and latter has ambiguities like lisp vs. common lisp etc.
20:44:42 <oerjan> a language with 1993 as its only primitive would be somewhat unusual. but then so is subtle cough.
20:44:51 <Taneb> There should be a 'c' in there...
20:45:31 <oerjan> elliott: just discard punctuation hth
20:45:50 <elliott> you realise i did not write the captcha extension :P
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20:48:38 <Vorpal> I wonder how many state-of-the-art SSDs you would have to put in RAID 0 to get performance similar to high end RAM. (Nevermind that SSDs are not random access down to byte level like RAM)
20:50:12 <Fiora> I remember the other day looking up some bandwidths of things, the dual-channel RAM throughput of a typical sandy bridge system was around 17.5 GB/s ish
20:50:24 <Fiora> and I think the high end SSDs are like 3GB/s or something? not sure
20:50:32 <Vorpal> Fiora, that is peak, not sustained
20:50:45 <Vorpal> 3 GB/s is what top end SATA does
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20:51:00 <Mariu> really ? where are they ?
20:51:01 <Vorpal> and even SSDs have disk cache
20:51:23 <Mariu> or should I say, rullz ?
20:51:31 <pikhq> Vorpal: Strictly speaking modern RAM isn't quite that random access anymore anyways.
20:51:31 <Bike> Yes, you should say "rullz".
20:51:32 <Vorpal> I'm not sure what sustained transfer speed is from high end SSDs
20:51:53 <Vorpal> pikhq, how does that work?
20:52:14 <pikhq> Basically, the smallest unit you can access is actually a few bytes on modern DDR RAM.
20:52:30 <pikhq> It's a fairly minor technicality though.
20:52:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, my mental model of RAM: Set address lines, raise another line, the RAM pulls the line into a buffer, now you can read and/or write to said line, byte by byte
20:52:53 <Vorpal> so that isn't how it works then?
20:53:14 <Vorpal> (also there are clock lines and what not)
20:53:23 <pikhq> The DDR bus has made shit a bit more complicated for the sake of higher bandwidth.
20:53:26 <Fiora> Vorpal: nono, I meant, the high end ones that use PCI-E
20:53:32 <Fiora> the server-grade ones
20:53:44 <Fiora> I think SATA is 3Gb/s not 3GB/s
20:53:50 <pikhq> (as RAM *chip* clock speeds are still down at 200MHz)
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20:54:49 <Fiora> http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/ssd-910-benchmark-performance,3226.html
20:54:50 <pikhq> I think in general the individual RAM chips still work byte-by-byte, it's just a matter of anything on DDR not letting you act like that.
20:54:56 <Fiora> ah, this one can do 2GB/s
20:55:15 <pikhq> 64-bit wide bus and all.
20:55:49 <pikhq> This is also ignoring minor details of how there are points where you can't access some parts of the RAM because it's just the wrong point in the refresh cycle, but that's even more of a technicality.
20:57:03 <Vorpal> well yes, but refresh cycles have always existed
20:57:11 <Vorpal> unless you are dealing with SRAM
20:58:34 <quintopia> Arc_Koen: oh, i meant that bf joust gets popular about twice a year
20:58:43 <olsner> istr a bitmask of bytes that should be updated by a write, so even if you have a 64-bit data bus you can do single-byte operations (but I don't remember which kind of ram and for which architecture)
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21:03:51 <fizzie> What with caches, I'd assume most RAM reads these days are a full cache line's worth.
21:04:43 <Taneb> Yeah, this weekend I went to an anime con
21:05:13 <pikhq> Yeah, cache also jacks up the "random access" feature in a sense.
21:07:28 <olsner> I wonder if many systems have enough PCIe bandwidth to reach ram speeds
21:09:01 <fizzie> I understand there was some sort of a "con" somewhere in Finland (Tampere?) this weekend too. I heard a mention of some Homestuckers.
21:15:20 <Vorpal> Fiora, "The Intel SSD 910 can easily sustain 1400 MB/s with only a minimal amount of buffering (100 MB)." heh, "minimal"
21:15:40 <Fiora> I think that's because it needs to be able to issue lots of reads at once for pipelining
21:15:49 <Taneb> Yesterday I cosplayed Homestuck
21:15:54 <Taneb> And today I cosplayed Finland
21:16:02 <Fiora> since modern OSs aren't exactly built for super low latency disk reads I guess? and the rest of the sysem too
21:16:10 <Fiora> oooh. which character did you cosplay?
21:16:21 <Vorpal> Fiora, I just think calling a 100 MB buffer "minimal" is kind of crazy
21:16:39 <Fiora> well don't modern system usually use gigabytes of disk cache/buffer?
21:16:47 <Fiora> or does that mean something else
21:17:02 <Vorpal> hm, true, still, hdd buffers are nowhere near that afaik
21:17:32 <Vorpal> total used free shared buffers cached
21:17:32 <Vorpal> Mem: 16053 13722 2331 0 511 5251
21:17:33 <Vorpal> -/+ buffers/cache: 7958 8094
21:17:34 <olsner> I think 64MB is normal for high-end disks, but I also think the hdd buffer is irrelevant
21:17:54 <kmc> Linux will use all your free RAM as disk cache
21:18:14 <Vorpal> kmc, looks like it is using a couple of gb for buffers though?
21:18:36 <Vorpal> that seems a bit much while idling
21:19:36 <nooodl> Taneb: cosplayed finland?
21:20:10 <olsner> that PCIe SSD doesn't look very optimal - a pcie slot can give more bandwidth than that if you install a disk controller and raid lots of ssd:s on it instead
21:20:27 <Taneb> nooodl, the character of Finland from the webcomic Scandinavia and the world
21:20:39 <nooodl> ah. i've read half of that
21:21:12 <olsner> (or if you get a faster pcie ssd)
21:22:17 <Taneb> About to run out of battery...
21:23:29 <Vorpal> Taneb, where are you cosplaying?
21:23:55 <Taneb> Sunnycon, an anime convention in the far-off city of Sunderland
21:25:05 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, a raging fangirl
21:26:00 <elliott> taneb can't take pictures. it would threaten the space time continuum.
21:26:35 <Fiora> Taneb: which homestuck character?
21:28:26 <Taneb> And my Finland sucked
21:28:27 <olsner> doesn't everyone's finland?
21:28:29 <Taneb> But Vic Mignogna said he liked my hat!
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21:35:38 <shachaf> Is Jake related to Nepeta Leijon?
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21:36:08 <Fiora> I'm not sure they've even seen each other? though there is fefeta
21:36:34 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, how bad's tswett, generally speaking?
21:36:49 <Taneb> shachaf, they are pretty much entirely disconnected
21:41:38 <Taneb> Jake met a ghost-y thing that was a hybrid containing Nepeta
21:43:36 <zzo38> Is gay adoption a form of discrimination against children?
21:43:41 <Taneb> Who, as Fiora mentioned, was called Fefeta
21:43:57 <Taneb> zzo38, I cannot see how
21:45:42 <shachaf> imo nepeta leijon is the best one?
21:45:47 <zzo38> It seems slightly reasonable to me, but it does not make a lot of sense to me.
21:45:58 <shachaf> that's why i cosine her on weekends
21:47:16 <zzo38> Apparently Cardinal Bergoglio said that.
21:47:26 <zzo38> (now known as Pope Francis I)
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21:58:25 <kmc> zzo38: just Pope Francis, although I suppose he is known as Francis I too
21:58:42 <Bike> this isn't talk: pope francis, kmc
21:58:57 <Bike> (seriously they have a few pages on that)
21:59:02 <kmc> yeah I'm sure
21:59:21 <kmc> Francis SZ
21:59:38 <Bike> it's pretty funny to see people cite the vast literature on popes choosing new names, which had only happened once since like the cambrian period
22:00:40 <Bike> francis 2.0 should be a sitcom about a hip new young pope trying to work his way around his job inbetween roleplaying online
22:00:58 <Bike> it can tie into elliott's ARG
22:01:33 <elliott> is catholic roleplay a thing; say yes
22:02:27 <Bike> episode about francis 2.0 nervous attending an offline meet for the first time; he arrives in the popemobile, which the others take as dedication to his character
22:02:47 <kmc> Bike: i would watch that show
22:03:02 <Bike> elliott: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=86248
22:03:05 <kmc> i would even sign an online petition demanding its return after early cancellation
22:03:45 <elliott> it's a real shame that nobody will ever make tv shows this stupid
22:03:55 <elliott> i would pay a lot to watch them
22:04:07 <kmc> they make TV shows far stupider
22:04:09 <Bike> elliott: you've heard of "Heil Honey, I'm Home!" right
22:04:38 <kmc> there are not one but two current TV shows about celebrities jumping into swimming pools
22:04:57 <Bike> The show centres on fictionalised versions of Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun, who live next door to a Jewish couple, Arny and Rosa Goldenstein. The show's plot is centred on Hitler's inability to get along with his neighbours.
22:05:06 <ais523> kmc: that specifically? or something a bit more general?
22:05:17 <Bike> generalized pool-jumping
22:05:31 <kmc> ais523: http://www.avclub.com/articles/splash,93833/
22:05:37 <elliott> kmc: well it's a specific kind of stupid I'm looking for
22:05:40 <Lymia> https://files.lymiahugs.com/egojoust-stats
22:05:55 <Lymia> Best 100 programs ever in Egobot.
22:05:58 <kmc> Bike: yeah my friend suggested a similar show about Osama bin Laden, after it was discovered that he was living in a suburban house
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22:06:31 <Bike> that could actually be kind of cool, they could go some way to treating waziristan as more than crazy infidel land, not that they would
22:06:44 <kmc> it's basically like Two and a Half Men except that the unwanted long term houseguest is Osama bin Laden
22:06:49 <elliott> Lymia: is this a heap with all the programs ever
22:07:01 <kmc> and in the series finale the US Marines kill everyone
22:07:07 <kmc> actually that should happen in every show
22:07:40 <Bike> i thought it was seals? gosh we just have so many kill squads to keep track of
22:07:48 <elliott> that was how Friends ended right
22:08:01 <Bike> more importantly, does this mean osama bin laden is played by charlie sheen
22:08:03 <kmc> yeah i don't remember
22:08:06 <Lymia> elliott, not exactly
22:08:10 <elliott> sidenote: could there possibly be a stupider name for a show than Friends
22:08:14 <Lymia> I did a few hirsutics to prevent running for one day
22:08:17 <Lymia> more than one day*
22:08:20 <kmc> Bike: well it was his house in that show
22:08:31 <kmc> so it would be the other guy
22:08:31 <impomatic> Am I still here? Very weak wifi signal in the office :-(
22:08:32 <Bike> oh. i'm not up with "the canon"
22:08:36 <Bike> yes impomatic.
22:08:44 <kmc> it's slightly embarassing that I know this
22:08:54 <Bike> it's okay, i've seen a few episodes too
22:08:58 <Lymia> This is the best 100 from a hill consisting of the best version of each group of programs with the same name, as compared against the current hill.
22:09:08 <Bike> elliott: http://goodcatholicdykes.wordpress.com/2012/01/14/dear-dykes-religious-role-play/ this was a good thing to google.
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22:09:25 <tswett> Aw man, Taneb got to meet Vic Mignogna.
22:10:32 <impomatic> Oh! I can see my name :-) https://files.lymiahugs.com/egojoust-stats/
22:10:36 <Bike> i can't even tell how real this is
22:10:51 <Lymia> The top 100 was measured via raw win/loses with ties counted as losses though.
22:10:58 <Lymia> That might have skewed things.
22:12:02 <zzo38> kmc: I know he is just known as Pope Francis but I don't like that so I call him Pope Francis I instead.
22:12:28 <kmc> Pope Gopher PlainTeX I
22:12:29 <impomatic> Are all of the BF Joust warriors going right back to the beginning available?
22:12:34 <Bike> why don't you like it
22:12:48 <Lymia> impomatic, it's from in_egobot.hg, all changesets.
22:13:38 <zzo38> Bike: To tell the difference from Pope Francis II (even though there is no such thing yet, I think they should be numbered anyways, since such things is possible)
22:13:59 <kmc> say what you will about Chuck Lorre but the man knows his craft
22:14:06 <Bike> zzo38: so do you refer to Peter as Peter I
22:14:13 <kmc> when I watch his shows I laugh when the laugh track tells me to, even if I hate myself for it
22:14:27 <Bike> are you a cardinal
22:14:30 <kmc> > "Pope Francis" == "Pope Francis II"
22:14:33 <zzo38> Bike: No, Peter is the name that is not allow for any other popes, I think.
22:14:46 <kmc> rarely is it necessary to talk about all the popes of a particular name together
22:14:47 <Lymia> The number before the : is the changeset number
22:14:48 <zzo38> elliott: You cannot vote for me, I am not a cardinal.
22:14:53 <Bike> It's allowed, but traditionally a Peter II heralds the end of the universe.
22:15:02 <Bike> zzo38: You don't have to be a cardinal to be elected.
22:15:07 <kmc> Pope Francis v1.0-g7a3f95c2
22:15:35 <zzo38> Bike: Well, I refuse to be elected pope of the Catholic church if I am not a cardinal.
22:15:48 <elliott> that is very mature of you.
22:15:54 <zzo38> The pope of Discordianism, I can be, though!
22:15:59 <Bike> Why not? there's plenty of precedent. they even have procedure for electing laymen.
22:16:19 <elliott> it looks like you are allowed to pick Peter II but it would be a big faux pas
22:16:27 <zzo38> Bike: What is the procedure?
22:16:51 <Bike> You get made a priest, then a bishop, then the pope, or whatever. Basically you ascend in order.
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22:17:06 <Bike> I'm not sure if it's ever happened but it sounds pretty funny.
22:17:08 <kmc> elliott: pick Pope FIXME and then after you've been fully poped, make a declaration ex cathedra that you are allowed to be Peter II
22:17:31 <zzo38> Bike: Well, yes, you can be if you are made a priest first and so on
22:17:44 <zzo38> But I don't think bishop is enough; you have to be cardinal before you can be pope.
22:17:44 <elliott> papal infallability would be good fun to mess around with
22:18:18 <zzo38> But if I was pope, though, I would try to get rid of papal infallability
22:18:18 <olsner> does the pope recognize canada?
22:18:58 <elliott> zzo38: would you use palal infallability to delcare that popes cannot ever be infallible
22:19:12 <zzo38> elliott: No, that is illogical.
22:19:44 <Arc_Koen> we should have bf joust tournaments
22:19:54 <Bike> zzo38: gregory X for instance was a bishop
22:20:02 <oerjan> just get passed a clarification that the pope can only be infallible if she is a lesbian hth
22:20:05 <Arc_Koen> that is, you know in advance who your opponent will be but not what program they'll use
22:21:06 <Arc_Koen> so you can make a program in function of who your opponent is ("hmm, I know he often uses fast rushes, so I'm gonna try to lock him...")
22:21:30 <oerjan> also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sexually_active_popes
22:22:17 <Arc_Koen> There have been 266 popes. Since 1585, no pope is known to have been sexually active either before or after election to the Papacy.
22:22:30 <Bike> "Pope John X (914–928) had romantic affairs with both Theodora and her daughter Marozia, according to Liutprand of Cremona in his Antapodosis:" just like my porno
22:22:38 <Arc_Koen> how the hell can you start an article with that sentence, and then go on with a list of all sexually active popes?
22:22:44 <elliott> Pope Paul II (1464–1471) is popularly thought to have died due to indigestion arising from eating melon in excess,[43][44] though a rumour was spread by his detractors that he died while engaging in sodomy.[citation needed]
22:22:51 <zzo38> Papal infallibility means that the pope is allowed to be infallible by himself if he wants to, without requiring a council.
22:23:04 <elliott> Arc_Koen: did you know the catholic church existed prior to 1585
22:23:15 <coppro> `addquot <zzo38> Papal infallibility means that the pope is allowed to be infallible by himself if he wants to, without requiring a council.
22:23:19 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: addquot: not found
22:23:19 <coppro> `addquote <zzo38> Papal infallibility means that the pope is allowed to be infallible by himself if he wants to, without requiring a council.
22:23:21 <Arc_Koen> now you're just making stuff up
22:23:23 <HackEgo> 990) <zzo38> Papal infallibility means that the pope is allowed to be infallible by himself if he wants to, without requiring a council.
22:23:25 <Bike> elliott: basically the same
22:23:40 <elliott> so wait have the last billion popes been celibate all their life
22:24:11 <FreeFull> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sexually_active_popes
22:24:25 <Bike> thanks that's the context
22:24:57 <zzo38> Therefore, if I was the pope and wanted to get rid of papal infallibility, I would organize the council to consider it.
22:25:32 <pikhq> Strictly speaking "Pope" just means you're the Bishop of Rome, anyways.
22:25:49 <pikhq> Catholics are silly people.
22:26:04 <Bike> i think you'll find that eastern christianity isn't real pikhq!!
22:26:33 <pikhq> No, all the other Popes are also Bishop of Rome. :P
22:26:47 <Bike> and let's see by billion elliott means uh, like fifty
22:27:14 <zzo38> elliott: I said it is illogical. I mean it is illogical if it is not temporal logic, and I do not think temporal logic should be applied here (this isn't a kind of thing that seems like, whether or not it should be, should change, but rather that if you made an error before you can correct it).
22:27:33 <elliott> so it is kind of like divorcing pala infallibility
22:27:36 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope-elect_Stephen Oh, here's another guy who got elected pope. He wasn't even a bishop!
22:27:53 <Bike> "List of 10 shortest-reigning popes"
22:28:46 <zzo38> Bike: Well, OK, I guess some people are, but usually they are cardinals, and probably they should select people that are cardinals if they can, but I don't know exactly how it works.
22:29:01 <Bike> sounds like you're not prime pope material then
22:29:05 <Bike> better brush up on that
22:29:26 <zzo38> I don't intend to be pope.
22:30:15 <pikhq> Not even space pope?
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22:31:23 <coppro> that guy wouldn't take me to his lizard
22:31:44 <zzo38> Well, not pope of the Catholic church, anyways.
22:32:04 <Bike> You gonna be the Coptic pope?
22:32:51 <Bike> make up your mind dude
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22:37:40 <FreeFull> "Pope Paul II (1464–1471) is popularly thought to have died due to indigestion arising from eating melon in excess,[43][44] though a rumour was spread by his detractors that he died while engaging in sodomy."
22:38:07 <Bike> are you elliott
22:38:45 <oerjan> FreeFull: you might wish to read the above discussion hth
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22:41:19 <zzo38> I don't think there are any pope with fractional numbers (except something I made up for the Dungeons&Dragons game)
22:41:34 <shachaf> `addquote <zzo38> I don't think there are any pope with fractional numbers (except something I made up for the Dungeons&Dragons game)
22:41:36 <TeruFSX> there was Pope John the Fourteenth the Second
22:41:37 <HackEgo> 991) <zzo38> I don't think there are any pope with fractional numbers (except something I made up for the Dungeons&Dragons game)
22:41:57 <Bike> You laugh, but antipopes lead to numbering just as silly.
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22:43:13 <FreeFull> http://goats.com/archive/040227.html
22:43:38 <TeruFSX> there are six different people who have declared themselves Peter II in the last hundred years
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22:47:40 <Bike> "peter ii" becomes most fashionable name in history, actual antichrist named peter ii by mistake, world implodes
22:52:59 <fizzie> "Antipope" is a funny word, however.
22:53:20 <Bike> Fiora: "To convert decimal scientific notation to IEEE double precision using [180-bit precision][...] the [lookup] table used [...] would have nearly 10^20 entries, most of which would contain over 50 decimal digits. The table can be compressed by several orders of magnitude, but it is hard to believe that this approach can be made practical." thanks for clarifying!
22:55:12 <tswett> I wish they had an actual elected office called the Antipope.
22:56:13 <tswett> Maybe we ought to do something like that in a nomic.
22:56:35 <tswett> Perhaps an office whose job is to violate the rules that apply to the holder of the original office.
22:56:38 <pikhq> So. Craziest form of digital video encoding.
22:56:57 <zzo38> Is that the craziest form?
22:57:24 <coppro> tswett: you should build on my proposed gameplay from last september using that
22:57:30 <pikhq> zzo38: Hmm. Maybe.
22:57:37 <pikhq> It'd be a 12MHz PCM signal.
22:58:18 <tswett> What if you're archiving VHS tapes and you need to occasionally copy the data onto more VHS tapes?
22:59:30 <zzo38> It is the signal I use.
22:59:54 <tswett> Or what if the video needs to be transmitted as audio.
23:00:39 <pikhq> tswett: In that case I'd use a lower sampling rate. :P
23:01:47 <ais523> tswett: an Agoran Antispeaker?
23:01:55 <ais523> whose job is to ensure discontinuity of the game?
23:02:04 <zzo38> But I don't have a program to convert other video format into PCM format and vice versa.
23:02:29 <pikhq> Yeah, that'd straight-up be a programmatic NTSC encoder.
23:07:06 <zzo38> Even such a program for a single frame, I would like to have, too.
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23:10:41 <zzo38> Why do I get connection errors on this IRC a lot?
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23:23:56 <myndzi> damn you guys have gone to town on the bf joust wiki
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23:24:29 <kmc> why did a bunch of people just ping out
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23:24:38 <myndzi> ya missed something though
23:24:46 <Arc_Koen> I'm part of that bunch and I'd like to know
23:25:01 <Bike> party at kmc's place
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23:25:24 <elliott> i'd go to a party at kmc's place
23:25:28 <myndzi> the anti-shudder clear was designed specifically to cause shudder to have a cell at 0 for two cycles in a row; it's not just that it's "long and wacky" or waiting two c ycles
23:25:39 <shachaf> i'd go to a party at kmc's place
23:25:57 <myndzi> that is, regardless of polarity it always manages to counter, and it's possible to make such a clear for any shudder pattern
23:26:09 <elliott> oerjan: The Latest On Effective mouse pads Secrets
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23:26:22 <myndzi> it doesn't need to loop at all, the loop is only there to skip the sequence if unnecessary
23:27:10 <FreeFull> I wonder what bfjoust would be like if cells had fewer values
23:27:22 <myndzi> less interesting, i imagine
23:27:34 <shachaf> What if cells had lesser values
23:27:36 <myndzi> the closer they get to 0 the less variation there would be in strategy
23:27:55 <myndzi> but making them arbitrarily large doesn't help either
23:27:59 <myndzi> 8 bits seems a good size
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23:30:09 <Lymia> For what it's worth.
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23:30:20 <Lymia> My evolver produced something that amounted to (+-.-+.)
23:30:24 <Lymia> Which seemingly got ~20
23:30:37 <Lymia> Is there a name for that? o-o
23:31:02 <myndzi> seems like it falls into anti-vibration or anti-shudder
23:31:18 <myndzi> either the + or - will lock the opponent on 0, the pause will switch in case you're out of sync
23:31:30 <myndzi> something like that anyway
23:31:31 <oerjan> (the wat was for your mouse pad comment. for the idea of boolfuck joust you get yay! instead)
23:32:09 <myndzi> i suppose you could make the win condition something longer than 2 cycles
23:32:22 <myndzi> then the complexity would not be in magnitude but in timing
23:33:50 <zzo38> In what cases is the order important of multiple simultaneous MIDI events?
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23:34:29 <zzo38> (I don't mean General MIDI, I just mean MIDI)
23:34:37 <kmc> i just finished setting up my old laptop as an XBMC box
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23:34:40 <kmc> good for parties
23:34:47 <elliott> oerjan: it is a wonderful new page on the wiki
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23:47:11 <olsner_> I do hope you never manage to completely remove spam from the wiki
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23:48:49 <olsner_> because of all the incredible pages and titles the spam gives us
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23:51:16 <Arc_Koen> I thought netsplit meant the net was splitted
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00:00:30 <olsner> Arc_Koen: maybe the reason for the split was shutting down the server you were on?
00:00:33 <olsner> or that server realized it was no longer in the network and kicked everyone out?
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00:01:11 <olsner> or you were just accidentally
00:01:17 <elliott> do you see the words I am saying.
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00:01:30 <Bike> are you asleep
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00:03:16 <elliott> did all my messages just come in at once
00:03:24 <Bike> No. That would be dumb.
00:03:34 <Bike> No, lambdabot is dumb.
00:03:45 -!- Sgeo has joined.
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00:03:55 <Bike> So do I, but sometimes you have to acknowledge the dumb.
00:03:58 -!- Mariu has quit (Quit: leaving).
00:03:58 * Bike hugs lambdabot
00:04:39 * Lymia feeds lambdabot cake
00:04:47 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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00:07:38 <Sgeo> > fix $ \(a,b) -> (0,0)
00:07:45 <Sgeo> > fix $ \~(a,b) -> (0,0)
00:07:47 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:7: parse error on input `\~'
00:07:54 <Sgeo> > fix $ \(~(a,b)) -> (0,0)
00:08:40 <Bike> but what is the fixed point... of EXISTENCE
00:08:56 <Bike> i guess it is nothing. deep
00:09:00 <elliott> Bike: how is the lyah reading going!!!
00:09:20 <Bike> i went through the FFI part of the standard
00:09:45 <elliott> that sounds like a terrible idea for a newbie
00:09:59 <Bike> it seems pretty solid, at least
00:10:00 <kmc> though the coolest things in GHC's FFI aren't in the language standard
00:10:13 <kmc> or at least some useful tricks aren't
00:10:30 <Bike> nothing anybody does in haskell seems to be in the standard and not in ghc (note this is exaggeration get it huh)
00:10:32 <kmc> like the fact that you can pass a ByteString to a C function with zero copying
00:12:00 <Bike> just uh, the standard doesn't seem that important, so much as whatever GHC does
00:12:07 <kmc> i think the standard is important
00:12:17 <kmc> it tells you which parts of GHC are considered bedrock and which are subject to the whims of the GHC devs
00:12:29 <kmc> there is value in a language spec even if there's one dominant implementation
00:12:47 <Bike> yeah, i guess.
00:12:49 <elliott> well the bedrock isn't obeyed and the whims of the GHC devs are controlled by necessity
00:12:51 <kmc> it prevents them from doing what Perl and PHP do where core semantics change in point releases at the whims of the devs
00:13:00 <kmc> though probably not being idiots also prevents them from doing that
00:13:03 <shachaf> You can tell how much kmc dislikes statistics by how annoyed he is at every standard deviation.
00:13:19 <kmc> GHC does deviate from the spec in at least one major way though
00:13:19 <Bike> "X is defined by Y equations" > "here is the behavior of X" most of the time
00:13:29 <kmc> which is enabled by default and can't be disabled
00:13:38 <Bike> well what is it
00:13:41 <kmc> which is that (Num t) no longer implies (Eq t) and (Show t)
00:13:50 <kmc> which can break some standards-following code
00:13:50 <Bike> oh. is that major
00:13:58 <elliott> it's not really actually major
00:14:00 <kmc> f :: (Num t) => t -> String; f = show
00:14:08 <kmc> that types in H2010 but not in GHC
00:14:08 <Bike> like it's incompatible obviously
00:14:18 <kmc> you will find real world code that breaks
00:14:21 <kmc> not a ton of it but it does exist
00:14:34 <kmc> actually none because there is no real world code in haskell, lolololololololololol
00:14:47 <elliott> i would very much like for ghc to deviate from the standard more
00:15:00 <elliott> like there is no excuse for Monad not to have the Applicative superclass
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00:15:05 <kmc> i like extensions but deviations that can't be disabled is a bigger deal
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00:15:26 <Bike> question is it possible to mention haskell without complaining about people complaining about "real languages" etc in a sarcastic way
00:15:31 <FreeFull> kmc: I don't think Num has a Show restriction in GHC
00:15:38 <elliott> Bike: kmc just likes complaining
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00:15:45 <kmc> and you can't realistically do that with Num because then haskell2010:Prelue.Num and base:Prelude.Num are different classes in the compiler and libraries can't be intermixed
00:15:56 <kmc> FreeFull: yes that's what we were just talking about?
00:16:11 <shachaf> kmc: How should breaking changes like that be made?
00:16:12 <Bike> when i become a famous whatever i become i'm gong to write all my code in snobol and make people translate it into whatever they use
00:16:17 <kmc> shachaf: I don't know
00:16:22 <Bike> i will be a legendary ass
00:16:26 <elliott> kmc: the standard that is woefully inadequate to interpret the meaning of all haskell code (because even if you don't use extensions, your dependencies do) should not hold back haskell in practice
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00:16:49 <shachaf> I think it would be good if there was more than one Haskell compiler.
00:16:58 <elliott> it is a fairly niche language, keeping the Monad hierarchy in the stone age because it's not written down on a piece of paper for a standardisation process that moves glacially and uncertainly is a one-way ticket to stagnation
00:17:07 <kmc> i wish there was more clarity (especially for beginners) on which extensions are necessary and proper for everyone, and which ones are batshit stuff added last week
00:17:07 <shachaf> kmc's point would be much less pedantic if anything except GHC was actually viable.
00:17:21 <FreeFull> Or skip Haskell and write an Idris implementation
00:17:21 <kmc> I think my point doesn't have anything to do with the number of language implementations
00:17:25 <kmc> but whatever
00:17:28 <elliott> if there was actually an active haskell standardisation process that incorporated more than the most trivial of extensions and published fairly regularly then deviations would be worse
00:17:30 <kmc> Haskell 2010 isn't a formal spec anyway
00:17:35 <elliott> as it is they are necessary
00:17:36 <kmc> SML 4 lyfe
00:17:51 <Bike> when you say "formal" are you talking about denotational semantics or something because, seriously
00:18:05 <elliott> like haskell 2010 is frankly a joke in terms of the progress made in practical haskell vs. the progress the standard made over 12 years
00:18:07 <shachaf> "the only kind of semantics"
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00:18:21 <Bike> operational semantics are for lame-os not mathy at all shachaf!!
00:18:40 <Bike> i need to cut down on the exclamation points
00:18:41 <kmc> Bike: i'm talking about what mathematicians mean by "formalism"
00:18:47 <kmc> and rules for manipulating them
00:18:52 <kmc> you can do formal operational semantics too
00:19:19 <kmc> every certifying compiler for C has a formalized operational semantics of x86 code, mechanized in Coq or something
00:19:31 <kmc> mmmmm certifying compilers
00:19:48 <Bike> How well does formalizing x86 even work?
00:20:08 <kmc> you have to stick to some subset
00:20:10 <elliott> kmc: it's only ppc that's been done afaik
00:20:23 -!- Gregor` has changed nick to Gregor.
00:20:23 <elliott> also compcert like fails to do something dumb
00:20:29 <elliott> like idk goto into the middle of switch or something
00:20:31 <kmc> NaCl sticks to a subset such that proof carying code isn't necessary
00:20:35 <elliott> but it's something relevant enough that it can't compile anything real
00:20:41 <kmc> you can check the program directly rather than checking a proof output by the compiler
00:20:43 <Gregor> <kmc> every certifying compiler for C has a formalized operational semantics of x86 code, mechanized in Coq or something // all one of them.
00:21:07 <Fiora> what sort of x86 instructions are "problematic" for formalized x86?
00:21:18 <elliott> great hexcellent c (compiler)
00:21:32 <elliott> periodic reminder that ghc's full name is The Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System
00:21:33 <Bike> Is it really the individual instructions? I would have guessed it was the shitload of weird state
00:21:41 <kmc> i like how there are approximately 0 static analysis tools for Haskell despite people constantly going on about how it's a perfect language to reason about mechanically
00:21:52 <kmc> setting aside the GHC type checker
00:21:56 <Bike> doesn't ghc const- right.
00:22:01 <elliott> i think kmc is on a quest to go on about haskell myths more than the myths themselves
00:22:20 <kmc> yes, weird state, non-aligned instructions
00:22:24 <Bike> well, you know that old saying, formal analysis whatever will only matter when you can do it without understanding shit
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00:22:38 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Take a stress pill and think things over.
00:22:43 <kmc> also there are just a lot of instructions and variations of the architecture
00:23:22 <shachaf> @remember SaulGorn A formalist is one who cannot understand a theory unless it is meaningless.
00:23:26 <Bike> Fiora: like as an x86 programmer you know better than anybody how complicated it is to understand, and as a programmer you know how hard mapping "thing i understand -> thing the computer does" is.
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00:23:50 <kmc> it's not hard to write x86 assembly though, it's just hard to reason about arbitrary weird x86 assembly
00:23:57 <kmc> and the same is true for static analysis
00:24:09 <kmc> it's easier for a compiler to produce a binary and understand what it does, even certify it
00:24:11 <Bike> Who's Saul Gorn
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00:24:28 <Bike> A pioneer of something something.
00:24:28 <kmc> than to analyze some obfuscated malware you found on russian rapidshare
00:24:33 <Fiora> Bike: yeah, that's why it confused me a little bit, since, like, if you're generating the assembly, you shouldn't have to avoid some instructions
00:24:34 <Bike> With a wikiquote.
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00:24:52 <Fiora> only for analyzing existing assembly it might be an issue I'd think?
00:24:54 <Bike> Fiora: well like, kmc mentioned misaligned instructions; the nacl subset doesn't have those at all
00:25:06 <Fiora> nacl isn't proof carrying like he said though, right?
00:25:13 <kmc> yeah, and this means that indirect jumps have to be preceded by a mask instruction iirc
00:25:19 <kmc> yeah with NaCl the proof is implicit
00:25:30 <Bike> "it's in nacl so it works"?
00:25:31 <kmc> "correct by inspection"
00:25:36 <Fiora> yeah, nacl does a thing where no instructions can cross 32 byte boundaries
00:25:41 <Fiora> and all calls and stuff are aligned to 32 bytes
00:25:46 <Bike> I wonder if that runs into godel problems.
00:25:47 <Fiora> which avoids the trick of being able to jump to the middle of an instruction
00:25:54 <kmc> mmm JIT spraying
00:26:07 <Bike> keep your fetishes out of here sir
00:26:11 <Fiora> and execute misaligned instructions, which lets you smuggle in instructions you weren't supposed to be able to
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00:26:34 <Sgeo|web> > snd (fix (\(~(even, odd)) -> ((\n -> if n == 0 then True else not (odd n)),(\n -> if n == 0 then False else not (even n))))) 5
00:26:55 <Bike> it looks gross
00:26:56 <kmc> PaX's implementation of amd64 KERNEXEC (preventing ring0 from jumping to user code) is also based on masking indirect jumps
00:27:22 <Sgeo|web> > snd (fix (\(~(even, odd)) -> ((\n -> if n == 0 then True else not (odd n)),(\n -> if n == 0 then False else not (even n))))) 0
00:27:23 <Bike> oh mutual recursion
00:27:36 <Bike> i'm so glad oleg wrote a mutfix combinator for me so i could avoid thinking about it
00:27:57 <Fiora> nacl is actually kinda cool, it's really impressive how little it has to require to prove things safe
00:27:59 <Sgeo|web> I think lambdabot's dead. I tried it on TryHaskell and it worked for 0 but not for anything else
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00:37:39 <Sgeo|web> fwiw there is no other side of the split
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00:42:02 <kmc> there is no dark side of the moon really
00:42:05 <kmc> matter of fact it's all dark
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00:43:50 <elliott> kmc: i too have consumed this cultural product
00:43:55 <Gregor> Yeah, especially the part that's reflecting sunlight and thus not dark by definition.
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00:47:41 <Sgeo|web> > snd (fix (\(~(even, odd)) -> ((\n -> if n == 0 then True else not (odd n)),(\n -> if n == 0 then False else not (even n))))) 5
00:47:55 <elliott> @tell ais523 2013/03/25 00:46:24 [error] 23940#0: *5967814 FastCGI sent in stderr: "PHP message: PHP Fatal error: Call to a member function getVar() on a non-object in /srv/esolangs.org/www/mediawiki/extensions/AbuseFilter/special/SpecialAbuseLog.php on line 281" while reading response header from upstream, client: 95.146.57.2, server: esolangs.org, request: "GET /wiki/Special:AbuseLog/33 HTTP/1.1", upstream: "fastcgi://unix:/var/run/php5-fpm.sock:
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00:47:57 <Sgeo|web> > snd (fix (\(~(even, odd)) -> ((\n -> if n == 0 then True else not (odd n)),(\n -> if n == 0 then False else not (even n))))) 0
00:48:10 <elliott> @tell ais523 this is the error I get when trying to view the broken abuse log page
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00:48:33 <elliott> @tell ais523 that line is just "if ( $vars->getVar( 'action' )->toString() == 'edit' ) {" -- I think I'll just try updating the wiki
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00:50:45 <Sgeo|web> > snd (fix (\(~(even, odd)) -> ((\n -> if n == 0 then True else not (odd n)),(\n -> if n == 0 then False else not (even n))))) 1
00:51:00 <elliott> are you even reading the code you are asking it to evaluate.
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00:56:58 <Sgeo|web> > snd (fix (\(~(even, odd)) -> ((\n -> if n == 0 then True else not (odd (n-1))),(\n -> if n == 0 then False else not (even (n-1)))))) 5
00:57:49 <elliott> another hint: even n = not (odd n).
00:57:51 <Bike> Sgeo|web: lose the nots
00:57:55 <elliott> then look at your selse branch.
00:58:14 <Bike> the weird thing is i went through this same thing myself yesterday. what's up with that
00:59:04 <Sgeo|web> > snd (fix (\(~(even, odd)) -> ((\n -> if n == 0 then True else odd (n-1)),(\n -> if n == 0 then False else even (n-1))))) 5
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01:07:19 <oerjan> FreeFull: because t is the default type variable used when there are no type annotations involved that it can borrow variable names from
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01:08:17 <oerjan> :t let x = x; x :: fnord in x
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01:08:55 <oerjan> :t let x = x; x :: fnord in (x, x)
01:09:27 <oerjan> :t let x = x; x :: a in (x, x)
01:10:12 <oerjan> seems it sometimes gets used even when there _is_ an annotation. vagaries of unification i guess.
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01:19:48 <oerjan> :t let x = x; x :: argle bargle in (x, x)
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01:27:31 <oerjan_> we should be the other kind of esoteric, then we could put a curse on the ddoser or something.
01:27:56 <Lymia> :t let x = x; x :: (lots of sugar, whole fat milk, whipped eggs) -> delicious baked goods in x
01:27:58 <Bike> verily i say unto you, ddoser: cut this shit out, it's boring
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01:28:04 <Bike> Sgeo|web: did you get the global notice
01:28:08 <oerjan_> Sgeo|web: said so in status message
01:28:25 <Bike> wonder who's doing it
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01:29:59 <Bike> kloeri(~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri)- [Global Notice] Hi again. The network issues is caused by a DDoS attack and we're working with our sponsors to have it filtered. Depending on how bored the attacker is it could be a while before everything is back to normal however. Sorry about the stability issues caused by this.
01:30:04 <oerjan_> lambdabot seems ddosed enough
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01:50:46 <Arc_Koen> Depending on how bored the attacker is it could be a while before everything is back to normal however.
01:51:13 <Arc_Koen> I was just watching that movie where there is a bomb on a plane
01:52:00 <kmc> isn't that most movies
01:52:25 <Arc_Koen> I could imagine the captain informing the passengers "ladies and gentlemen, we appear to have a device aboard the plane. it might be a bomb. we're working with the fbi to have it disarmed. depending on how bored the bomber is it could go off any second, or not at all."
01:52:46 <Arc_Koen> well maybe, but in that one there's nothing else to the movie
01:53:11 <Bike> so, most movies
01:54:44 <elliott> i can't tell whether it's my connection or lambdabot's that's broken
01:54:56 <Bike> imo lambdabot's
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01:57:23 <oerjan_> maybe it's lambdabot doing the ddosing
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02:00:16 <HackEgo> surma: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:01:09 <Arc_Koen> waiting such a long time FOR NO MESSAGES
02:01:23 <Arc_Koen> don't you just hate it when that happens
02:01:59 -!- Sanky has joined.
02:02:04 <Arc_Koen> now I feel like when that girl was supposed to call me and then didn't
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02:03:42 <oerjan_> i vaguely recall that it's stereotypically never the girl's job to call
02:06:15 <Arc_Koen> well I'm working based on my experience
02:07:10 <Arc_Koen> the girl was attracted to me in 100% of the situations where she was the one who called
02:07:49 <Arc_Koen> the percentages in the situations where I was the one to call aren't nearly as high
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02:14:25 <Sgeo> ) 'are we recovered?'
02:15:45 <oerjan_> i'm afraid jconn made the final sacrifice, Sgeo
02:18:54 <Arc_Koen> !bfjoust have_faith_she_will_call >>>>>++++++++++([]++++++++++>>>>>>>>>----<<<<<<<<<<)*-1
02:19:02 <EgoBot> Score for Arc_Koen_have_faith_she_will_call: 0.0
02:19:16 <Arc_Koen> ok that was supposed to be low but I had faith for not so low
02:19:21 <Fiora> that one kind of looks like it commits suicide
02:19:46 <Arc_Koen> well first it only works if the tape is 14 or something
02:19:52 <oerjan_> indeed a little too left-leaning
02:20:12 <elliott> note that fixed-tape-size BF Joust is trivial/uninteresting... so it's hard to do much with warriors that assume it
02:20:21 <Arc_Koen> !bfjoust have_faith_she_will_call >>>>>++++++++++([]++++++++++>>>>>>>>>----<<<<<<<<<)*-1
02:20:25 <EgoBot> Score for Arc_Koen_have_faith_she_will_call: 0.0
02:21:04 <oerjan_> you may just as well join a convent at this rate
02:21:09 <Arc_Koen> elliott: I had some foolish hope that I could win on 14 and tie on enough other lengths
02:22:02 <elliott> btw you might want to try it in egojsout or such
02:22:22 <oerjan_> Arc_Koen: that [] will not let you out until the opponent clears it
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02:25:00 <Arc_Koen> ohhhh right you mean it's too late when I see it
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02:27:01 <oerjan_> !bfjoust maybe_without_a_power_of_2 >>>>>++++++++++([]++++++++++>>>>>>>>>-----<<<<<<<<<)*-1
02:27:05 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan__maybe_without_a_power_of_2: 0.0
02:27:50 <Arc_Koen> well if it doesn't divide 128 it's hopeless
02:28:16 <oerjan_> ...you're assuming the opponent doesn't tweak their flag?
02:28:54 <Arc_Koen> well otherwise there is no point in using ()*-1 as if it were an actual loop
02:30:27 <Arc_Koen> but [] doesn't work anyway. it can only see the flag is 0 on the second turn, when it's already over
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02:38:43 -!- kmc has set topic: The 17th vigintile welcoming channel on Freenode. You have been warned. | Safe when used as directed. | Newsflash: fungot has been writing spam for chips. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
02:39:43 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
02:39:46 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 29.4
02:39:47 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow +>>->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
02:39:50 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 28.9
02:39:53 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow +>>->>->+>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
02:39:56 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 28.7
02:40:02 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow ->>-->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
02:40:05 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 29.2
02:40:10 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow ---->>-->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
02:40:13 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 27.9
02:40:18 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow ---->>++>>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
02:40:21 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 28.3
02:40:22 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
02:40:25 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 29.4
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02:47:01 <Arc_Koen> Lymia: are you just spamming with the exact same program? oO
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02:48:28 <Bike> there are small differences, as you can see by just glancing at the lengths
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02:52:56 <Arc_Koen> oh, I thought the difference in score was due to the hill changing
02:53:13 <Arc_Koen> definitely time to go to bed :)
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03:06:43 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Fractional GHC.Types.Int)
03:08:31 <Bike> okay ignoring that incompetence for a second, Enum for floats seems quite weird.
03:09:09 <elliott> Bike: it is to make ranges work
03:09:14 <lambdabot> [0.0,0.1,0.2,0.30000000000000004,0.4000000000000001,0.5000000000000001,0.60...
03:09:23 <Bike> my kind of range
03:09:32 <elliott> it's very bad & a big wart in the design
03:09:52 <Bike> yeah lyam already said to, i'm just wondering what possessed them to come up with that
03:10:06 <Bike> i mean there is an actual enumeration for floats! it's just kind of useless for this
03:10:29 <Bike> learn yourself an ML
03:10:56 <elliott> well it's design by committee
03:10:59 <elliott> there are always goign to be flaws
03:11:34 <Bike> let me rephrase. I don't mean "why are there flaws" because indeed of course there are going to be flaws. I mean "what was the idea behind this particular flaw"
03:12:28 <elliott> ok the answer is that humans are stupid
03:12:44 <elliott> i mean there are 500 page long email threads about how ranges should be done and separated from Enum and shit
03:12:49 <elliott> it's just that you want to be able to do like
03:12:54 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:6: parse error on input `]'
03:13:10 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,...
03:13:22 <elliott> and basically Enum works reasonably for everything execpt floats
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03:13:29 <elliott> so they just get a bad instance instead
03:13:39 <elliott> (well Enum fails for Integer because it gives conversion to Int but those just error out outside the range sooo)
03:13:44 <elliott> and splitting this stuff up is non-obvious
03:13:47 <elliott> like there are multiple ways you can do it
03:13:51 <elliott> and also redundancies with the Ix typeclass
03:14:20 <Bike> typeclasses seem like a weird way to organize all around, honestly
03:14:45 <elliott> typeclasses are a very good point in the design space really
03:14:55 <elliott> like they are basically generalised OOP interfaces
03:15:07 <elliott> for something like Functor or Monad or whatever they're perfect
03:15:29 <elliott> you provide a bunch of definitions the type should support and you're done -- whether they produce values of that type or consume them or whatever
03:15:53 <Bike> well, ok yeah, functor and monad seem pretty boss. but like the numeric ones?
03:15:59 <shachaf> Type classes aren't used for the same things OO interfaces are typically used for, though.
03:16:11 * shachaf hates having fallen asleep during the day.
03:16:13 <kmc> lyam? Learn You A MUMPS
03:16:20 <Bike> well ok i already asked about the numeric ones forget i mentioned that again
03:16:29 <elliott> Bike: you can do some "ok" numeric heirarchies with typeclasses
03:16:34 <elliott> Num itself is awful but it works
03:16:47 <Bike> good design criterion
03:16:52 <elliott> like they're not perfect but typeclasses are novel and a lot better than most of the alternatives
03:16:55 <shachaf> kmc: Now I feel awful and will continue feeling so for a few hours.
03:16:58 <kmc> Num is an awesome, elegant typeclass that celebrates craftsmanship
03:17:00 <shachaf> kmc: Then I won't be able to fall asleep at night.
03:17:03 <kmc> shachaf: why awful though?
03:17:08 <Bike> having never programmed long in like ML I have no idea what the alternatives are
03:17:09 <elliott> by novel I mean, Haskell is mostly an amalgamation of previously-implemented stuff in the (lazy) functional programming community
03:17:21 <elliott> but ML or wahtever doesn't have typeclasses
03:17:25 <elliott> and those languages suffer for the lack
03:17:27 <Bike> That's what I mean.
03:17:32 <kmc> i find that even falling asleep at 23:00 instead of 01:00 will make me wake up a few hrs later and not get back to sleep
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03:17:37 <Bike> I don't know in what specific fashion they suffer (though it's easy to believe they do)
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03:18:04 <elliott> Bike: like for instance, consider Map
03:18:16 <kmc> 2 + 3, 2.0 +. 3.0
03:18:16 <elliott> you have a type (Map k a) representing an associative mapping of ks to as, yr standard old dictionary type
03:18:32 <elliott> all the functions Just Work as long as you've defined an Ord instance for k (because it uses a tree based on the order)
03:18:42 <elliott> you don't have to explicitly pass in your comparison function when creating the Map
03:18:51 <elliott> unioning two Maps is safe because there can only be one Ord instance for k
03:19:01 <elliott> so it can use a more efficient union algorithm, because it knows the orderings of two (Map k a)s must coincide
03:19:25 <elliott> and yeah what kmc said -- you don't have to have separate arithmetic literals, operators etc. for every single data type
03:19:32 <Bike> let me find an example of why i'm wondering
03:19:43 <kmc> basically typeclasses were invented as a way to do 'operator overloading', but have since been used for a lot more
03:19:49 <kmc> that's the story I know anywya
03:19:53 <kmc> it might be revisionist history
03:20:23 <shachaf> Available in: dvi, ps, dvi.gz, ps.gz.
03:20:34 <kmc> laziness inspires purity, which is otherwise useful. purity inspires monadic IO, which is otherwise useful. monadic IO inspires monads, which are otherwise useful
03:20:39 <kmc> really quite a chain of luck there
03:20:48 <kmc> shachaf: what would zzo38 do
03:21:00 <Bike> like "The nub, delete, union, intersect and group functions all have their more general counterparts called nubBy, deleteBy, unionBy, intersectBy and groupBy." so obviously the type classes are used in the first group, like "defaults", but then you have a second one for when you want to do some non-global thing?
03:21:08 <shachaf> I should get a thing that says that.
03:21:21 <Bike> dvi.gz, that might be new to me
03:21:23 <kmc> Bike: yeah but if you did that for Map you would have the problem that elliott mentioned
03:21:23 <elliott> Bike: well in that case you can think of nub as simply a synonym for nubBy cmpare
03:21:26 <shachaf> Bike: Well, that is hardly unique to Haskell.
03:21:38 <shachaf> It just has a different mechanism for defining what < means on a type.
03:21:38 <elliott> they are conveniences for when you want to use the "normal" comparison function
03:21:46 <elliott> but the operations themselves are much more general
03:21:47 <kmc> python and perl sorts also let you specify your own comparison optionally
03:21:52 <elliott> with something like Map, the fact that instances are "global" is an *advantage*
03:21:54 <kmc> and, oh god, C++
03:22:10 <Bike> I thought like everything with a builtin sort let you specify your own comparison.
03:22:11 <kmc> and good old qsort(3)! but then you aren't really given a sensible default
03:22:24 <elliott> like it's more, the perspective should be that nub etc. are convenience definitions in terms of nubBy
03:22:27 <elliott> rather than nubBy being "generalised nub"
03:22:37 <Bike> elliott: i get that.
03:22:41 <kmc> there should be a language named rubby
03:22:53 <kmc> also <kmc> performing arbitrary computation by means of conditional vacation autoresponders
03:23:03 <Bike> Well, I guess it could go either way. generalization is hard to do
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03:23:36 <shachaf> q what is the obvious generalizsation of (.)?
03:23:38 <Bike> generaliszation, n. generalization by szilard
03:23:48 <shachaf> Bike: i was thinking of liszt
03:23:55 <Bike> was he a physicist? imo no
03:24:03 <kmc> anyway sometimes the 'one implementation per type' property of typeclasses is useful, which is why you can't consider them to be purely sugar for implicit arguments
03:24:12 <kmc> but that is a way to think of them and also an implementation strategy
03:24:15 <elliott> implicit arguments aren't fashionable
03:24:29 <kmc> elliott: scala and agda have them, checkmate
03:24:36 <kmc> Bike: the Map thing elliott mentioned above
03:24:53 <kmc> if you're unioning two Maps, implemented as binary search trees, you want to know that they were constructed with the same comparison function
03:24:56 <elliott> agda's implicit parameters are nothing like haskell's
03:25:14 <shachaf> elliott: you can't argue with checkmate..............................
03:25:20 <kmc> you can't do that if the compr. function is just an arg to the map ctor
03:25:26 <Bike> I don't think I get that example, you could like, have Maps store their comparison functions (or some more realistic mechanism for the same thing)
03:25:35 <kmc> Bike: yeah but then you need to check for equality
03:25:35 <shachaf> Bike: But you can't compare comparison functions.
03:25:38 <kmc> of functns
03:25:45 <kmc> and if they don't match it's a runtime err
03:25:47 <shachaf> Bike: If you know that the two functions are the same, you can just stick two trees together.
03:25:57 <kmc> \rainbow{extensional equality}
03:26:21 <Bike> Is that a problem? You can just use pointer comparison, the programmer can't reasonably expect extensional equivalence towork
03:26:24 <kmc> oh no i'm a meme pollinator
03:26:29 <shachaf> /bin/map-union one.btr two.btr
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03:27:59 <Bike> I mean with the global you're just making "there is one global [overloaded] comparison function" part of the system to solve that problem.
03:28:30 <shachaf> Right, which is enforced by the language.
03:29:34 <Bike> But then what happens when you want a map on something that already has an Ord instance you don't want for that specificity?
03:29:46 <Bike> I guess you could like, make a type alias or whatever
03:30:22 <kmc> 'now you have two problems'
03:30:37 <shachaf> But I don't know how else to get the desired properties, really.
03:30:49 <shachaf> Pointer equality is not a good answer.
03:31:40 <Bike> Why not? Well, I guess Haskell doesn't have Eq for functions so you can't do it.
03:31:57 <shachaf> Well, you don't really want to have Eq for functions.
03:31:58 <elliott> <Bike> Is that a problem? You can just use pointer comparison, the programmer can't reasonably expect extensional equivalence towork
03:32:01 <shachaf> elliott would like to explain why.
03:32:23 <elliott> Bike: so now the asymptotic performance of your map union algorithm depends on whether you use myComparisonFunction or (\x -> myComparisonFunction x)
03:32:30 <elliott> ando ther such operational details that the language guarantees nothing about
03:32:46 <elliott> not only that but you need an unsafe (impure) pointer comparison operation implement Map
03:32:54 <Bike> I just don't understand when the lambda would come up, reasonably speaking?
03:33:23 <elliott> that was just an example. it could also be myComparisonFunction and myComparisonFunction
03:33:34 <elliott> maybe the implementation copied it underneath. you don't know. Haskell doesn't speak about operational semantics at all
03:33:54 <elliott> and generally I think it's nice to be able to state union's big-O without saying "but if the pointer comparison fails..." :P
03:34:00 <shachaf> Bike: dude Bike what is the meaning of function pointer equality
03:34:16 <shachaf> denotational semantics plz
03:34:20 <elliott> the global instances property also gives us nice things like the open world assumption
03:34:25 <Bike> but it gives me hives :(
03:34:31 <elliott> which basically means your program can't break by adding instances
03:34:34 <elliott> it's a bit more subtle than that though
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03:35:06 <Bike> i do like open world assumptions.
03:35:45 <lambdabot> [1.5,2.5,3.5,4.5,5.5,6.5,7.5,8.5,9.5,10.5]
03:35:48 <shachaf> did someone mention that one to Bike............
03:36:01 <Bike> It's actually what started this?
03:36:20 <Bike> Assuming you mean Enum for floats being weirdass and not that specific enumeration.
03:36:28 <shachaf> i just saw a discussion of instance Num blah
03:36:41 <Bike> Oh. Um what do you mean?
03:37:41 <Bike> I think I mostly latched onto that 'cos i just read a thing that used the actual nextfloat function.
03:38:24 <shachaf> imo unsafeCoerce ((unsafeCoerce (10.5::Double)::Integer)+1)::Double
03:38:45 <Bike> I think I'm with monqy on unsafeCoerce.
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03:39:07 <shachaf> The great thing about unsafeCoerce is that it does what you mean.
03:39:07 <Bike> cast to bigint, watch the system go down in flames
03:39:38 <shachaf> Integer is implemented with Int# for small values.
03:39:47 <shachaf> If you overflow it'll crash, though.
03:39:48 <Bike> psh nonstandard
03:40:01 <Sgeo> I just made a norn that should be practically braindead. It's fully capable of eating and playing with toys
03:41:53 <kmc> shachaf: have u ever, like, really compared two pointers
03:42:16 <shachaf> imo (==) :: Ptr Apple -> Ptr Orange -> Bool
03:42:21 <Bike> have you ever looked at your page table? like, really looked at your page table
03:42:47 <kmc> Bike: yeah Linux has /proc/$pid/pagemap
03:43:00 <kmc> which tells you inter alia the physical page frame number for every page in your address space
03:43:27 <Bike> someday i'll stop overusing stoner jokes. or at least actually get stoned and then continue using them
03:43:45 <shachaf> Bike: imo learn category theory then make more stoner jokes
03:43:52 <shachaf> bonus points if its higher category theory??
03:43:57 <elliott> i admit i really liked the left adjoint one
03:44:00 <kmc> what was that one
03:44:07 <Bike> god why do you have to be talking about real things
03:44:51 <kmc> I'm the Vice President of the United States, you stupid little fuckers!
03:45:16 <elliott> 18:50:27 <elliott> I have friends in high places
03:45:19 <Bike> is that from that mech game or is it something cheney actually said at some point
03:45:24 <elliott> <shachaf> Maybe they're in high places because elliott left adjoint somewhere.
03:45:32 <Bike> OK, that's pretty good.
03:45:39 <Bike> oh it's from TV ok
03:46:05 <kmc> it sounds like something Nixon would say except s/Vice //
03:46:08 <elliott> that was before shachaf learned about the three ways functors could be related
03:46:27 <shachaf> elliott: what are the ways again
03:47:35 <HackEgo> 957) <lexande> sometimes i am confronted with a problem and i think "I know, I'll use Banach-Tarski"
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03:49:14 <shachaf> oops i said "TV" capitaliszed.......
03:49:31 <Bike> I thought it was from that one video game where you fight the vice president in a giant robot.
03:49:56 <Bike> No, you play as the president.
03:50:16 <shachaf> and you defeat the other president
03:50:24 <Bike> The vice president.
03:51:09 <shachaf> imo you're not talking about Sam & Max Episode 104: Abe Lincoln Must Die
03:51:39 <Bike> Indeed I'm not. Does that actually involve robots? I thought Sam & Max usually just beat people up.
03:51:49 <shachaf> It was sort of a robot, wasn't it?
03:51:58 <shachaf> Maybe the president you fight is also the robot.
03:52:11 <Bike> I was thinking of http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1a/Metalwolfcover.jpg
03:53:34 <kmc> http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq255/Sandwich35/wootstrike-21f-fa.gif?t=1296026584
03:54:03 <Bike> wow, the prelude in the standard has a whole lexer in it for some reason
03:54:14 <kmc> for use by derived Read instances I think
03:54:31 <Bike> i mean, in the example prelude
03:54:33 <kmc> it's like a shitty parser combinator library
03:55:16 <Bike> why is this gif about nuking israel
03:55:46 <Sgeo> The norn I created basically does not have wires leading from "I'm hungry" to "eat food"
03:55:50 <Sgeo> Or any similar connections
03:56:03 <Sgeo> It has wires from seeing and hearing to wanting to do things with what it sees and hears
03:56:13 <Sgeo> But it doesn't make decisions based on its drives
03:56:29 <Sgeo> creatureswiki.net
03:56:30 <kmc> it's about being the Shadow President
03:56:48 <kmc> and the bad decisions you can make as Shadow President
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04:06:38 <zzo38> Now I want to implement the polls in Internet Quiz Engine. However, to do that, it should write the data to another file, and then use another program to make it into a SQL code, and then use SQL to make the statistics of the result.
04:07:56 <Bike> we only have one?
04:08:03 <zzo38> Saved from what? The power lines? Humanity? The sun? Or, perhaps, from the keys on your computer that the letters have been rubbed off?
04:08:43 <Bike> Do any of us hunt and peck
04:09:15 <zzo38> O, I forgot, maybe is save from the giant robot.
04:09:38 <Sgeo> Bike, I've hunted and pecked for so long that it's become know and peck
04:09:46 <Sgeo> It's been know and peck for a while
04:10:00 <Bike> You actually don't know how to touch type. is that what you're telling me.
04:10:19 <Sgeo> Touch typing is where you keep your hands in the same place and just move fingers?
04:10:23 <Sgeo> Yes, I don't know how to do that.
04:10:26 <zzo38> If you cannot type, then you should learn to type if you want to operate your computer
04:10:31 <Sgeo> Although all my fingers get used when I type
04:10:43 <Bike> I need like video of this or something.
04:10:50 <kmc> `addquote <zzo38> If you cannot type, then you should learn to type if you want to operate your computer
04:10:54 <HackEgo> 992) <zzo38> If you cannot type, then you should learn to type if you want to operate your computer
04:10:57 <elliott> i touch-type except i don't keep my fingers on the home row
04:11:04 <zzo38> Are they going to get to one thousand?
04:11:14 <Bike> does anyone like actually keep their fingers on the board
04:11:25 <kmc> i use the kinesis contoured keyboard which means keeping your fingers on the home row feels incredibly good
04:11:32 <kmc> almost as good as sex to be quite honest
04:11:38 <zzo38> Bike: I do (except when I am not typing)
04:11:48 <elliott> combined keyboard/teledildonic that rewards keeping your fingers on the home ro
04:11:56 <elliott> i guess you don't really need the nic there
04:11:57 <Bike> anyway what paper should i read: lockery, buhrmann, fernando, harvey, di paolo, or some other one
04:12:12 <zzo38> Bike: What other one is it?
04:12:19 <elliott> do i have to pick just from the names
04:12:40 <Bike> i don't want to paste the paper titles they're long and as previously established my hands don't stay on the board long enough
04:12:52 <elliott> what are these papers about B. T. W.
04:12:54 <kmc> `pastequotes zzo38
04:12:58 <elliott> i need a bigger dot i think
04:13:01 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.24070
04:13:18 <elliott> as previously established,[1] worms[2] are gross.[3]
04:13:18 <Bike> hey fuck you roundworms are my totem :( :(
04:13:39 <elliott> are you like a biologist or something
04:13:41 <Sgeo> Bike, you should play worms
04:13:58 <Bike> also roundworms aren't actually annelids
04:14:05 <Bike> because names of animals are really dumb?
04:14:08 <kmc> `quote 246
04:14:10 <HackEgo> 246) <zzo38> Why do you want to have sex in everything? I don't want.
04:14:14 <zzo38> I don't mind if roundworms are your totem, but it doesn't help if the [1][2][3] you don't know the notes.
04:14:23 <Bike> Hey that was elliott. Blame him.
04:14:28 <HackEgo> 2) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork"
04:14:35 <Bike> This doesn't say anything about any worms.
04:14:39 <zzo38> Therefore you should fill it in if you want to know the answer of it.
04:15:04 <Bike> oh i forgot worms aren't actually a phylum anyway
04:15:13 <Bike> why the paraphyly elliott? something to hide??
04:15:39 <elliott> meanwhile my pertinent question has not been answered
04:15:58 <Bike> oh i'm too young to be an anything
04:16:06 <elliott> what are you a pretend thing of again
04:16:28 <Bike> computational neuroethology! it's totes a real field i didn't just make up to make you stop asking
04:16:47 <Bike> more importantly i think gross things are cute.
04:17:08 <zzo38> Once someone asked me to make a computer program to figure out the distance from here to the moon. This was many years ago. Now I have a program to calculate the distance from here to the moon.
04:17:19 <kmc> `quote 865
04:17:21 <HackEgo> 865) <zzo38> If you write in the text using Unicode then how are you supposed to know if you mean seraphim have seven eyes or do they have ten?
04:17:40 <elliott> Bike: oh are you one of those secretive people
04:17:42 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anguis this is dumb. this is so dumb. animals are dumb
04:17:45 <elliott> i assumed you'd already said
04:17:48 <kmc> ^----- you use SERAPHIM EYE COUNT SEQUENCE INITIATOR followed by any number of SERAPHIM EYE COUNT SEQUENCE DIGIT 0 through SERAPHIM EYE COUNT SEQUENCE DIGIT 9
04:18:04 <Bike> elliott: i hadn't already said because it's not much to do with this channel. that is actually my "dream field" though.
04:18:10 <elliott> Bike: is it philosophy. it's ok i know a guy studying philosophy. i only hate his guts 100%
04:18:18 <elliott> it would be 200% but he's also doing mathematics
04:18:41 <elliott> since when does anything have anything to do with this cahnenl
04:18:45 <zzo38> kmc: And then does the multiocular O code terminate it?
04:18:54 <kmc> i don't know
04:18:59 <Bike> http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Computational_neuroethology
04:19:03 <elliott> like you liking common lisp has nothing to do with this channel... but it's still the reason you're terrible
04:19:07 <kmc> perhaps they are combining chars on the multiocular O directly
04:19:23 <kmc> the above is how the (deprecated) language code indicators work
04:19:29 <elliott> Bike: i like how you can just stick "computational" onto the start of any field.
04:19:32 <kmc> with an entire copy of the latin alphabet as invisible combining chars
04:19:34 <Bike> i know, it's great
04:19:38 <kmc> but that's not modifying a specific character
04:19:51 <Bike> computational neuroethology leads to building machines with no other use but irritating small animals though
04:19:54 <Bike> so it's cool in my gook
04:20:04 <Bike> isn't computational english stylometry
04:20:14 <kmc> computational neurotheology
04:20:35 <Bike> neuro- is similar to computational in this respect, in that "neurotheology" is something that people actually say they do.
04:20:53 <Bike> I guess for making it computational you get Francis Dec to help out or something.
04:20:58 <elliott> i would definitely read about computational neurotheology
04:21:03 <Bike> computer gangster theology
04:21:09 <kmc> http://www.youtubedoubler.com/?video1=oOYrCHi7yjM&start1=0&video2=FB18DV1SQmI&start2=0&authorName=crunkbourgeois&h=1
04:21:18 <Bike> crunkbourgeois eh
04:21:56 <Bike> okay this is great.
04:23:13 <Bike> what the hell is he even saying
04:23:26 <Bike> "maximum security insanity prison"
04:24:06 <Bike> i admire whoever read this. i could not keep this up
04:25:14 <Bike> he just said the sky isn't real
04:25:42 <elliott> i don't even hear the words. it's all one big thing
04:26:30 <Bike> deadly frankenstein communist gangster conspiracy worldwide systematic plastic surgery instantaneously
04:27:00 <kmc> http://youtubedoubler.com/?video1=q2I5NvjhqwI&start1=219&video2=hKLpJtvzlEI&start2=240&authorName=Real
04:27:17 <elliott> oh is he saying the n word.
04:27:24 <elliott> i can't even tell what's going on.
04:28:16 <Bike> i guess crazy people are racist sometime?
04:28:27 <elliott> donate money, or even a manual typewriter, to me!
04:28:51 <zzo38> Which model of typewriters would be best for that purpose?
04:28:59 <Bike> hm i've never actually heard or read anything by alex jones before.
04:29:28 <kmc> http://youtubedoubler.com/?video1=VgAXZHMi_ws&start1=0&video2=TMQLLqiKaas&start2=0&authorName=Ann+O%27Nymous
04:29:34 <Bike> holy shit jones.
04:29:42 <Bike> is he going to destroy the camera
04:29:59 <Sgeo> Is xkcd trying to make a fool of me or is there actually something
04:30:05 <kmc> can't it be both
04:30:19 <Bike> "i'm pissed off now" no really
04:30:19 <zzo38> According to my computer the distance from here to the moon is 0.0025718 AU
04:30:39 <Bike> thelliott for the "thmc" tidbit
04:30:46 <zzo38> (Just in case you need to know those distance)
04:32:40 <elliott> oh the rant thing kmc linked originally
04:32:44 <elliott> is something Bike already linked here??
04:32:47 <elliott> http://www.bentoandstarchky.com/dec/containmentpolicy.htm
04:33:09 <Bike> iunno probably
04:34:38 <elliott> "iunno probably" -- Bike, Bike's tombstone
04:35:32 <Bike> what are you implying
04:36:02 <elliott> i'm implying you're going to die rip
04:36:51 <Sgeo> Your heart will explode.
04:37:48 <Sgeo> I should stop making what I think are BGO references because BGO is literally just references to other things
04:37:55 <Sgeo> I think Your heart will explode comes from WoW
04:38:37 <Bike> i remember it from kill bill so that means the original is some 1960s action film nobody's ever seen
04:40:03 <elliott> that reminds me of that one time i thought a princess bride reference was a kill bill reference (i haven't seen either) and everyone gave me shit about not having seen the princess bride for days :'|
04:41:04 <Bike> tch i'll bet you haven't seen The Incredibly Strange Creatures Who Stopped Living and Became Mixed-Up Zombies either you shrub
04:42:11 <Bike> In some screenings, employees in monster masks, sometimes including Steckler himself, would run into the theater to scare the audience (The gimmick was billed as "Hallucinogenic Hypnovision" on the film's posters).
04:42:33 <elliott> (sometimes "!!?" is appended to the title) --Wikipedia
04:42:41 <elliott> 2/10 on imdb, that's how you know it's good
04:43:05 <elliott> At the time of release, The Incredibly Strange Creatures Who Stopped Living and Became Mixed-Up Zombies was the second longest titled film in the horror genre (Roger Corman's The Saga of the Viking Women and Their Voyage to the Waters of the Great Sea Serpent being the first).[1]
04:43:20 <elliott> This was not, however, the originally intended title of the film. As Steckler relates, the film was supposed to be titled The Incredibly Strange Creatures, or Why I Stopped Living and Became a Mixed-up Zombie, but was changed in response to Columbia Pictures' threat of a lawsuit over the name's similarity to Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb, which was under production at the time.[2]
04:43:22 <Bike> goddamn i haven't seen that one
04:43:31 <Bike> i bet they were totally serious
04:44:12 <elliott> The film currently holds a 2.5/10 user rating on IMDb.
04:44:18 <Sgeo> I still need to see Dr. Strangelove
04:44:18 <elliott> thats literally the entire criticism section of the wp article
04:44:28 <elliott> it doesn't even have a plot summary
04:47:00 <Bike> does it need one?
04:47:39 <Sgeo> At least I've seen The Princess Bride
04:48:03 <Bike> sgeo is clearly the superior elliott
04:48:25 <elliott> i think you'll find i am the optimal elliott
04:48:29 <coppro> elliott: you should add the metascore
04:48:34 <coppro> and the rotten tomatoes
04:49:10 <Sgeo> Add, not average, and don't put context of out of how many
04:49:59 <Bike> i give this film a 2+i
04:52:20 <elliott> hey Bike i'm bored. tell me to do something.
04:53:15 <coppro> elliott: go ride a bike
04:53:19 <coppro> (see what i did there)
04:54:08 <Bike> hm. what is a thing to do. an action one can take to be in the state of performing an action.
04:55:37 <Sgeo> You can breathe.
05:02:43 <Bike> it has to be something not boring. breathing sucks
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05:13:52 <Sgeo> http://totl.net/HonourSystem/ is broken :(
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05:20:25 <Sgeo> I think zzo38 might be interested in this http://data.totl.net/
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05:20:57 <Sgeo> Play Tic Tac Toe in RDF.
05:22:34 <kmc> oh good they have the Celestial Emporium of Benevolent Knowledge
05:23:01 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beard_tax
05:23:33 <Bike> those that are included in this classification
05:25:20 <kmc> http://graphite.ecs.soton.ac.uk/browser/?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2F01%2Frdf-schema%23Class#http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#Class
05:28:12 <kmc> shachaf: why
05:33:23 <zzo38> They have a list of things that cause and prevent cancer; some things are specified as both
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05:43:20 <zzo38> But these various datasets do show some examples of how these things works.
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05:47:17 <zzo38> Their tarot deck is not really a standard/generic deck. The standard Latin suits are swords, rods, money, and cups. Furthermore, the trumps do not have consistent names in different decks, but they are always numbered I to XXI (and sometimes the Fool (also called Excuse) is a trump, too).
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05:48:19 <zzo38> The different decks have suits based on the Latin suits; commoly seen is that the rods are wands and the coins have pentagrams on them.
05:49:08 <zzo38> There are other variants, too.
05:51:16 <shachaf> I,I Three undertrumps after an opponent's discard of a Trebled Fromp
05:52:13 <HackEgo> FireFly: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:52:33 <zzo38> shachaf: But that is in Double Fanucci, not in tarot.
05:52:49 <shachaf> zzo38: Have you ever played Double Fanucci?
05:57:30 <zzo38> In some tarot decks the cups are called chalices. It doesn't matter what they are called; if something says the suit of "money" or of "pentacles" or "disks" then they mean the same suit; whatever suit happens to correspond to "money" in the deck you are using. Sometimes the Excuse card is simply called "the highest trump" (in PySol, for example); when it is a trump, it usually is the highest one, but it is not always a trump.
05:58:30 <zzo38> shachaf: It is easier to explain if you find the picture
06:01:01 <zzo38> You can call the trumps and Excuse card together "majors" (or "Major Arcana", but "majors" is shorter), and the other cards "minors" (or "Minor Arcana"). This is useful when those cards are not being used as trumps, to avoid confusion. (The game Chicks Rule calls them "bettys" since any suit (including the majors) can be trumps; I don't quite know why they didn't choose "majors")
06:04:33 <zzo38> They have an entire chess game in RDF? Actually they have only one state at a time, so it is not the complete game
06:05:10 <Bike_> do your chess games usually have multiple states at once
06:05:58 <zzo38> Some variants may have, though.
06:06:33 <zzo38> But I don't see anything like a XSLT file which will generate the RDF for the current state, or anything else like that.
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06:35:52 <HackEgo> sp0oky: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
06:38:12 <sp0oky> Just playing with my phone to see how well IRC works.
06:38:38 <Sgeo> Better than it was a little while ago
06:39:59 <Sgeo> I'm supposed to be asleep
06:40:04 <Sgeo> I have work tomorrow.
06:40:09 <Sgeo> What a weird sentence.
06:41:00 <elliott> i ignored Bike's suggestion because i have no way of playing mario kart right now
06:41:37 <sp0oky> I could on my snes emulator
06:42:33 <Bike> http://meatfighter.com/java4k2013/rainbowroad/
06:42:42 <kmc> Sgeo: is it your first day?
06:44:04 <kmc> congrats and good luck :)
06:44:55 <zzo38> You would need the game too, not only the emulator (or hardware). Have you written any game on SNES?
06:45:22 <sp0oky> No but u can download Roma
06:45:49 <zzo38> Well, yes, you need the ROM image of the game
06:46:24 <sp0oky> I have final fantasy maybe I'll play that
06:47:21 <zzo38> Play whatever you have; I made many computer games too, but there are others, too.
06:47:50 <zzo38> I thought there is many of Final Fantasy game?
06:48:29 <sp0oky> Choices are limited. All I have is my LG smartphone.
06:48:57 <zzo38> You don't have another computer or game console system or whatever?
06:49:52 <zzo38> There are games specifically for the smartphone, although there may also be emulators for other systems, allowing the same games to be played on a different systems.
06:49:53 <sp0oky> zzo38, nope. I live on the streets of la
06:51:17 <sp0oky> I need to go to an internet cafe so I can root this thing
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06:53:04 <zzo38> If you have Android, you can find several games, emulators, and others from http://pdroms.de/files/android/ and if you have an emulator you can download files for those other systems too.
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07:04:23 <[mbm]> square actually sells a final fantasy game for both iphone and android .. no need to run an emulator
07:12:16 <Bike> http://www.pnas.org/content/110/7/2641.abstract.html "neurocomputation". the prophecy of elliott has come to pass
07:13:03 <elliott> computational neurocomputation
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07:19:44 <zzo38> [mbm]: I didn't know that. But I think there are many Final Fantasy games, isn't it?
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07:26:57 <fizzie> They sell Android ports of 1, 2 and 3 (according to the proper numbering); and the 3 is the "3D" remake, the one that was made for the DS.
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07:29:19 <fizzie> And a mobile-exclusive thing called Final Fantasy Dimensions, AIUI.
07:30:43 <Jafet> // WARNING: Enabling sounds may compromise security if Crawl is installed setuid or setgid.
07:30:43 <Jafet> // #define SOUND_PLAY_COMMAND "/usr/bin/play -v .5 %s 2>/dev/null &"
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07:31:08 <Jafet> (I can't think of any system where crawl isn't setgid)
07:31:47 <shachaf> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 7965160 Nov 15 07:50 /usr/games/crawl
07:33:09 <monqy> sound in crawl. cute.
07:33:31 <Jafet> -rwxr-sr-x 1 root games 6824968 2010-10-16 14:35 crawl
07:33:44 <shachaf> glad to see you back in here
07:34:30 <monqy> il be gone another awhile "fair warning"
07:35:06 <fizzie> Is the sound in Crawl just plain growling?
07:35:08 <monqy> um idk maybe thursdayish
07:35:37 <monqy> fizzie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jkorg2xnYI
07:36:09 <shachaf> um is that crawl with tiles.....................
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07:37:34 <monqy> lots of people play crawl with tiles. i don't. i don't play crawl.
07:37:58 <fizzie> That is indeed very cute and not annoying at all.
07:40:29 <shachaf> wow these are some "hi quality sound fx"
07:40:44 <Deewiant> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 7.7M 2013-02-06 17:34 /usr/bin/crawl
07:41:05 <elliott> i can't think of any reason you'd run crawl as setgid
07:41:15 <elliott> certainly not if you're compiling it manually as you have to to get sound support
07:41:15 <monqy> wh ywould you install crawl locally
07:41:32 <shachaf> because "not everyoen has an interner contnectoin"
07:42:29 <monqy> but then you compile the 'git master'
07:43:13 <fizzie> "'Pow!' said Zaphod. 'Freeeoooo! Pop pop pop!'", to quote a book, in re the sound effects.
07:44:13 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/OWDM it's about Crawl (with tiles)?
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08:17:22 <Lymia> Stupid evolver, I don't want 100 vibrators D:
08:17:33 <Lymia> At least attempt to rush!
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08:20:01 <Lymia> .<(.<(.<(.<)*-1)*-1(.<)*-1)*-1(.<(.<)*-1)*-1
08:20:04 <Lymia> nice individual you have there
08:20:23 <Bike> would be a shame if anything were to.... happen to it
08:20:24 <fizzie> You can open an adult store to get rid of them.
08:21:31 <Lymia> Bike, I would prefer that something happen to it
08:21:35 <fizzie> Lymia: I put in that thing I was talking about, the thing which takes a set of programs A, and then talks to the outside world over stdin/stdout, by accepting a program and outputting its scores against set A.
08:22:24 <fizzie> I haven't benchmarked at all how much that saves time w.r.t. just individual executions.
08:23:39 <fizzie> Perhaps I should run a quick test on the thing.
08:24:49 <Lymia> fizzie, in case you have a use for it
08:25:17 <Lymia> http://files.lymiahugs.com/download/esolang/bfjoust-collection.tar.xz https://files.lymiahugs.com/egojoust-stats
08:25:48 <Lymia> http://files.lymiahugs.com/downloads/esolang/bfjoust-collection.tar.xz
08:26:09 <Lymia> The .tar.xz is Windows in compatible due to file names. Don't try that :p
08:27:40 <fizzie> Lymia: http://sprunge.us/fZLC those should be vaguely comparable benchmarks.
08:27:42 <Deewiant> 1036:ehird_shade_needs_to_get_laid
08:28:24 <fizzie> (hill_nonl is hill with all newline characters stripped, because genelance interprets a newline as end of program.)
08:29:12 <fizzie> (I think I'll a lunch.)
08:29:26 <Lymia> fizzie, seems nice.
08:30:03 <Lymia> !bfjoust screwyouevolver (-)*-1
08:30:18 <Lymia> It seems that it never figures out how to rush
08:30:28 <Lymia> Unless you run it against the hill itself only for a few hundred generations
08:30:31 <Lymia> With ties counted as losses
08:31:02 <Lymia> !bfjoust i-appreciate-the-effort (-++)*-1
08:31:13 <elliott> Deewiant: i think that was one of my tweaking a random programs thing
08:31:28 <elliott> presumably whoeveritwas_shade (I think that was #1 at one point????)
08:31:54 <Deewiant> Or something like that, whatever his nick was
08:32:18 <Deewiant> Anyway, just an aside on all the sex-related stuff lately
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08:34:06 <Lymia> fizzie, can you add an optimization, like.
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08:34:13 <Lymia> If both programs end the reach of their code, call it a tie
08:34:23 <Lymia> And other similar things for programs that don't really do much
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08:42:25 <Lymia> Current best individual: -[--><])*-1
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08:42:38 <Lymia> Current best individual: -([--><])*-1
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08:42:51 <Lymia> I'm at a loss for words
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08:45:02 <Lymia> !bfjoust ihopethisturnsintosomethingthatsnotdefense -([--><])*-1
08:45:07 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_ihopethisturnsintosomethingthatsnotdefense: 13.2
08:45:45 <Deewiant> Isn't that equivalent to not having the *-1?
08:46:28 <Lymia> It's going to have a slight effect.
08:46:37 <Lymia> It'll take two ticks when it's zero.
08:46:42 <Lymia> .. which is very counterproductive
08:46:53 <Lymia> !bfjoust ihopethisturnsintosomethingthatsnotdefense -([--><]+)*-1
08:46:58 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_ihopethisturnsintosomethingthatsnotdefense: 13.2
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08:47:17 <Deewiant> Well, it got slightly more points
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08:48:01 <Effilry> Is there a difference between >< and .. ?
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08:48:16 <elliott> FireFly: yes, the latter kills you if you are at the edge of the tape
08:48:32 <Lymia> !bfjoust ihopethisturnsintosomethingthatsnotdefense -([--..]+)*-1
08:48:37 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_ihopethisturnsintosomethingthatsnotdefense: 13.2
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08:49:50 <FireFly> Now, what's *-1 ? I know that *n for positive n is for abbreviating repetition
08:49:57 <Lymia> *-1 is infinite repeat
08:50:02 <Lymia> !bfjoust ihopethisturnsintosomethingthatsnotdefense -[--..]
08:50:06 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_ihopethisturnsintosomethingthatsnotdefense: 12.9
08:50:15 <Lymia> !bfjoust ihopethisturnsintosomethingthatsnotdefense -[[--..]]
08:50:20 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_ihopethisturnsintosomethingthatsnotdefense: 12.2
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08:52:24 <Lymia> !bfjoust ihopethisturnsintosomethingthatsnotdefense -([->-<]+)*-1
08:52:27 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_ihopethisturnsintosomethingthatsnotdefense: 5.1
08:53:03 <Deewiant> Lymia: The extra [] adds a timing difference, even though it's essentially the same
08:54:17 <elliott> since the timing means it can change between ] and ]
08:59:22 <fizzie> *-1 is technically *100000 there.
08:59:27 <EgoBot> Score for FireFly_bluh: 7.5
09:01:47 <Lymia> Evolver! You're supposed to be local minima-proof >_<;
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09:02:13 <fizzie> !bfjoust fibo (+-++---(+)*5(-)*8(+)*13(-)*21)*-1
09:02:17 <EgoBot> Score for fizzie_fibo: 9.1
09:03:16 <lambdabot> Fibonacci numbers: F(n) = F(n-1) + F(n-2) with F(0) = 0 and F(1) = 1.
09:03:16 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
09:03:37 <Jafet> !bfjoust batteries_not_included (+-)*-1
09:03:41 <EgoBot> Score for Jafet_batteries_not_included: 6.2
09:04:42 <Deewiant> !bfjoust primary ((+)*2(-)*3(+)*5(-)*7(+)*11(-)*13(+)*17(-)*19(+)*23(-)*29(+)*31(-)*37(+)*41(-)*43(+)*47(-)*51)*-1
09:04:47 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_primary: 10.5
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09:05:29 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: thread killed
09:05:49 <Bike> the best sequence.
09:05:51 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: thread killed
09:05:53 <Deewiant> oeis.org, no need to kill lambdabot
09:06:18 <Jafet> @oeis 0 1 2 3 5 8 13
09:06:22 <lambdabot> Number of binary Lyndon words of length n with trace 1 and subtrace 1 over Z...
09:06:22 <lambdabot> [0,0,0,1,2,3,5,8,13,24,45,85,160,297,550,1024,1920,3626,6885,13107,24989,477...
09:06:35 <itsy> @oeis 0 1 3 4 6 6
09:06:47 <lambdabot> Minimum number of steps to reach n! starting from 1 and using the operations...
09:06:47 <lambdabot> [0,1,3,4,6,6,7,8,8,9,9,10]
09:07:12 <Jafet> I like how only 12 of those are known
09:07:17 <itsy> http://oeis.org/A217032 :-)
09:07:39 <itsy> Well, I know a few more :-)
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09:09:15 <itsy> @oeis 0 1 3 4 6 6 7 8 8 9 9 10 11 11 12 12 12
09:09:30 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: thread killed
09:11:39 <lambdabot> [0,9,99,999,9999,99999,999999,9999999,99999999,999999999,9999999999,99999999...
09:12:30 <Lymia> !bfjoust you-can-rush-now (->->[-])*-1>[--[-]]
09:12:33 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_you-can-rush-now: 0.0
09:13:04 <Lymia> !bfjoust you-can-rush-now (->->[-])*-1
09:13:07 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_you-can-rush-now: 0.0
09:13:10 <Lymia> What is this black magic
09:13:39 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (->->[-].)*-1
09:13:40 <Lymia> Fatally incompatible fitness functions
09:13:41 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 0.0
09:13:50 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (->[-])*-1
09:13:52 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 14.0
09:14:03 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
09:14:08 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_hi: 0.0
09:18:04 <Lymia> !bfjoust makeupyourmind! --(--(--(---+)*-1-+)*-1-+)*-1-+
09:18:10 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_makeupyourmind_: 12.1
09:24:06 <elliott> Bike: i just realised i subconsciously associate you with the pink floyd song of the same name and keep hearing it when you say things. thought you should know
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09:27:07 <Fiora> there's a pink floyd song called bike?
09:27:16 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmW17QvUhRM
09:27:42 <Bike> i should make a table of every song called "Bike", so far I know two
09:28:04 <Bike> this is on pink floyd's first album. how the fuck did they ever get popular
09:28:54 <shachaf> Bike: are you named after a song..........................................
09:29:08 <shachaf> imo the song is named after you
09:29:40 <Bike> i'm named after a stuffed animal but i don't know what the stuffed animal is named after? probably me
09:32:52 -!- experience has joined.
09:33:56 <experience> The purpose pertains to all who are present within this room.
09:34:36 <experience> You shall be rewarded with esoteric porn.
09:34:43 <experience> Do you see it? No? Open your minds eye.
09:34:52 <Bike> `welcome experience
09:34:57 <HackEgo> experience: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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09:36:21 <experience> Oh, this is a programming oriented channel.
09:36:40 <experience> Esoteric programming? Like the code that makes up the Matrix?
09:36:55 <Bike> consult your pineal gland and learn the answer
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09:38:39 <Bike> glad we got that cleared up. night
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09:41:44 <itsy> Oh, has experience gone :-( I didn't get chance to ask...
09:53:00 <Sgeo> I think I'm going to open-source Antiposeball 5
09:54:23 <Sgeo> I don't think I'm making much money off it, and if I am, I shouldn't be
09:54:27 <Sgeo> The code is old and buggy
09:54:45 <elliott> how do you not know whether you are making money off it or not
09:55:09 <Lymia> !bfjoust generation-200 (->->[-])*-1>[--[-]]
09:55:12 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_generation-200: 0.0
09:55:13 <Sgeo> The question is the meaning of 'much'
09:55:16 <Lymia> !bfjoust generation-200 (->[-])*-1>[--[-]]
09:55:19 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_generation-200: 14.0
09:55:23 <Sgeo> $300 or so over 6 years does not really seem like much
09:55:24 <itsy> I need some kind of printer server.
09:55:30 <Lymia> Why can't my evolver achieve a 2 opcode deletion
09:56:04 <Lymia> It's probs encoded weirdly
09:56:17 <Sgeo> I'm currently getting maybe a few cents a month
09:56:38 <Sgeo> Also, if I never sold it in the first place, if I just gave it away, Second Life might be a happier place
09:56:44 <Sgeo> So I kind of feel guilty about that
09:58:12 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghoti
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10:06:33 <Lymia> The disabling of the gene function seems to improve the evolver slightly.
10:06:37 * Lymia is going to have to run a full experiment...
10:11:41 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
10:13:14 <Sgeo> I was going to say I was unaware it was updated, but it wasn't actually updated
10:16:56 <Lymia> !bfjoust the-evolver-likes-this (+++--)*-1
10:17:00 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_the-evolver-likes-this: 7.0
10:18:33 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to NotRichBurlew.
10:24:59 <Fiora> Lymia: hmm. maybe it would be useful to write a test for the evolver's code to make sure it "agrees" with what the hill thinks?
10:25:20 <Fiora> e.g. give the scorer various known-okay programs and see if it agrees with the hill on how good they are relative to each other
10:25:25 <Fiora> I guess sort of a sanity test
10:25:40 <Lymia> !bfjoust nyannyan (++-.+)*-1
10:25:43 <Fiora> ... I wonder if genetically evolving based on lots of existing hill programs as seeds would work
10:25:45 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_nyannyan: 16.1
10:25:57 <Lymia> Fiora, I know the algorithm is different
10:26:05 <Lymia> The differences are small enough that I don't /expect/ a huge problem.
10:27:15 -!- NotRichBurlew has changed nick to Sgeo.
10:28:32 <Lymia> With the scaling based on 'value'
10:28:32 <olsner> if you have a hill with 40 crappy evolved programs that are vulnerable to the same strategy, that'll favor specific programs from the existing hill
10:28:35 <Lymia> I might have problems here
10:29:00 <Lymia> olsner, I'm comparing using the best 100 programs from egobot.
10:29:06 <Lymia> With no inner-hill evaluations.
10:29:13 <Lymia> I set too high a population size for that to be practical.
10:29:19 <Lymia> (best 100 programs, historically)
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10:31:37 <Lymia> olsner, I have a speciation algorithm that should prevent fluctuations in a self-against-self hill too.
10:32:18 <Fiora> I was thinking maybe separate evolution groups, so you have like multiple groups that face against each other but don't interbreed?
10:32:26 <Fiora> if that makes any sense
10:33:43 <Sgeo> is there such thing as nair for faces? because i hate shaving
10:34:26 <Taneb> Sgeo: I think there is, but it's mostly advertised for menopausal women
10:34:33 <olsner> just stop shaving and grow a beard?
10:35:34 <Fiora> ... okay yeah, species <.<
10:36:06 <Fiora> Sgeo: I think I remember facial skin is too sensitive for that stuff
10:36:20 <Fiora> and guy-facial-hair probably needs really strong chemicals to burn through
10:36:55 <Fiora> there's laser, but I'm not sure how well that works for guys, since testosterone might make the hair regrow eventually (?)
10:40:06 <Taneb> fizzie: there is a substantial lack of fungot
10:41:33 <itsy> Just grow a beard...++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++666666++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
10:41:55 <Sgeo> I hate the ritual mutilation of shaving
10:42:19 <Sgeo> Not only do I have at least one bleeding cut right now, but I'm still stubbly
10:42:39 <Taneb> Sgeo: I am in a similar boat
10:42:39 <olsner> it's funny how "growing a beard" sounds like you're actively doing something, but it's just the absence of shaving
10:42:42 <elliott> don't you think "mutilation" is a tad overdramatic
10:43:01 <Taneb> olsner: do you not UNDERSTAND the EFFORT that goes into GROWING A BEARD!?
10:43:33 <Taneb> olsner: for a while there's the telling people that it looks crap because you're trying to grow it
10:44:19 <Deewiant> Or do people ask you why your beard looks crap?
10:44:36 <Taneb> They constantly /ask/
10:44:50 <elliott> pretty sure beards don't exist & everyone who has one is actually just cutting off their hair and supergluing it to their chin
10:44:59 <elliott> I have not seen any evidence to the contrary
10:45:10 <elliott> Deewiant: is this finnish socialisation
10:45:40 <Deewiant> In Finland you don't need to do that, people do that automatically
10:45:51 <Sgeo> I never shaved in high school. People talked about my moustache, which made me feel awkward because my self-image is clean-shaven
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10:46:49 <elliott> maybe i should upgrade the wiki
10:46:57 <elliott> that would probably be a good thing to do
10:47:00 <olsner> Sgeo: change your self image to match reality
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10:49:49 <elliott> oh I forgot mediawiki extensions are kind of awful. :(
10:51:02 <Taneb> elliott: rite ur own wiki softwarez
10:51:12 <elliott> Taneb: how about you do it for me
10:52:32 <Taneb> elliott: I need to learn latin and find a shirt with the flag of Finland on it
10:53:17 <olsner> how would that help your write a wiki softwarez?
10:53:54 <Deewiant> How would that help with anything
10:54:07 <Taneb> olsner: latin is the best programming language for writing a wiki softwarez (true fact tm)
10:54:16 <Taneb> But they only let people who look Finnish use it
10:54:21 <elliott> Deewiant: how is mushbefungething
10:54:40 <Deewiant> elliott: Haven't touched it in months
10:55:18 <Deewiant> Sure, you can even have it in any currency of your choice
10:55:36 <Taneb> Just give me your bank account details and I'll sort it out for you
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10:56:17 <Deewiant> Write me a library for representing arbitrary polytopes with axis-aligned sides
10:56:19 <fizzie> fungot: Where were you?
10:56:19 <fungot> fizzie: i tried fnord few days ago
10:56:32 <fizzie> Oh, well, that explains it, I suppose.
10:56:58 <Taneb> I've heard fnord's nasty
10:57:08 <Deewiant> As a bonus, improve upon the best known approximation for minimal tessellation of it in 3D
10:57:19 <Taneb> Can knock you out for weeks, if you're not careful
10:57:36 <Deewiant> I think the 2D algorithm is optimal... as a bonus prove that it is or improve on it
11:00:54 <Taneb> Deewiant: do you have a shirt with the Finnish flag on it
11:01:43 <fungot> Taneb: would writing code that depends on another scheme48 library y would create a slip connection. :p ( around 5 hours for the ibook.)
11:01:56 <Taneb> thx for dodging the question
11:02:15 <Deewiant> To get started I just need the representation, plus a way of subtracting (hyper)rectangles from it
11:03:04 <Deewiant> But I'm not sure of the best way to go about that so I kind of left the whole thing to chill for a while
11:03:38 <Sgeo> The website of the bus I use is broken :*(
11:04:52 <Deewiant> (I /think/ I'd need to use a proper edge data structure which kind of means that I'd have to take the existing structure I use and see about generalizing the code sufficiently that I can use it for this case as well)
11:08:00 * Sgeo decides to walk away from comp instead of blowing a gasket at unreadable train schedules
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11:37:25 <Sgeo> Can I still type with a band-aid on my thumb? The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.
11:37:38 <Sgeo> Huh. I didn't try to use the thumb even once.
11:39:03 <Jafet> The quick brown fox hunts, but the lazy hen pecks.
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12:02:22 <elliott> http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2013/Mar/166 Port scanning /0 using insecure embedded devices
12:02:28 <elliott> kmc: ^ might find that interesting if you haven't seen?
12:07:46 <fizzie> 2013-03-19 23:22:44 <Bike> http://internetcensus2012.github.com/InternetCensus2012/paper.html so um <-- you seem to have gotten SCOOPED like an ICE CREAM there.
12:12:25 <elliott> fizzie: consider this: fuck you and fuck bicycles. :(
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12:43:09 <Jafet> elliott wants some sexy shimanos
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13:00:45 <Lymia> !bfjoust meow +.+(++-.+)*-1
13:00:50 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_meow: 13.8
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13:08:40 <Lymia> !bfjoust evo-14898-14988 (++++--+)*-1--
13:08:45 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_evo-14898-14988: 14.9
13:08:58 <Lymia> !bfjoust evo-14897-15213 (+++--++)*-1
13:09:04 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_evo-14897-15213: 15.6
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13:14:53 * Lymia has an idea for being stupid now
13:18:49 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[-[([(+)*8[+]]>)*-1]++[([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
13:18:52 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 17.3
13:19:26 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[>([(+)*8[+]]>)*-1]++[>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]]>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
13:19:29 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 12.1
13:37:26 <ais523> Lymia: is that designed to beat something in particular?
13:37:26 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
13:37:29 <lambdabot> elliott said 12h 49m 35s ago: 2013/03/25 00:46:24 [error] 23940#0: *5967814 FastCGI sent in stderr: "PHP message: PHP Fatal error: Call to a member function getVar() on a non-object in /srv/esolangs.
13:37:29 <lambdabot> org/www/mediawiki/extensions/AbuseFilter/special/SpecialAbuseLog.php on line 281" while reading response header from upstream, client: 95.146.57.2, server: esolangs.org, request: "GET /wiki/Special:
13:37:29 <lambdabot> AbuseLog/33 HTTP/1.1", upstream: "fastcgi://unix:/var/run/php5-fpm.sock:
13:37:29 <lambdabot> elliott said 12h 49m 20s ago: this is the error I get when trying to view the broken abuse log page
13:37:29 <lambdabot> elliott said 12h 48m 58s ago: that line is just "if ( $vars->getVar( 'action' )->toString() == 'edit' ) {" -- I think I'll just try updating the wiki
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13:47:26 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*-1]+>([-])*-1]])*-1
13:47:29 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 25.6
13:48:04 <ais523> ooh, it's getting better
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13:48:38 <Lymia> !bfjoust hana-no-sei <
13:48:41 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hana-no-sei: 0.0
13:48:44 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_tiny: 0.0
13:49:02 <Lymia> ais523, it's just flow with special casing for omnipotence's size one decoy. :p
13:49:16 <Lymia> Flow assumes that there's at least one space between the first decoy and the opponent's flag
13:49:32 <boily> !bfjoust chicken (>)*9(----++++[-]>)*30[-]
13:49:35 <EgoBot> Score for boily_chicken: 4.7
13:49:46 <boily> hm. I think I fared better last time.
13:49:57 <boily> !bfjoust chicken (>)*9(----+++++[-]>)*30[-]
13:50:00 <EgoBot> Score for boily_chicken: 3.5
13:50:08 <boily> ais523: don't ask. :p
13:50:26 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*3([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]+>([-])*3([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]])*-1
13:50:28 <ais523> Lymia: haha, that reminds me of how omnipotence beats space_hotel
13:50:30 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 27.1
13:50:41 <ais523> it recognises its size 5 decoy and switches to a strategy designed specifically to beat it
13:51:50 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]])*-1
13:51:53 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 27.1
13:52:00 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1]])*-1
13:52:04 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 27.2
13:52:07 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]])*-1
13:52:10 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 26.7
13:52:12 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1]])*-1
13:52:15 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 27.2
13:52:41 <Lymia> I should write a macro language for this
13:52:46 <Lymia> To make things easier to write >_<
13:53:28 <boily> Lymia: careful, you're treading into autoconfy territory. next step, you'll be designing a macro language for your macros for your macros.
13:53:55 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*8([-])*-1]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*8([-])*-1]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*8([+])*-1]>)*-1]])*-1
13:53:58 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 8.2
13:55:12 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([((+)*8[-])*2[+.]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([((+)*8[-])*2[+.]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([((-)*8[+])*2[-.]]>)*-1]])*-1
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13:55:15 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 18.3
13:55:21 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1]])*-1
13:55:24 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 27.2
13:55:50 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
13:55:53 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 30.7
13:56:05 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([((+)*8[-])*2[+]]>)*-1])*-1
13:56:09 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 19.9
13:56:33 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-][+]]>)*-1])*-1
13:56:36 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 29.3
13:56:44 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]][+]>)*-1])*-1
13:56:47 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 29.9
13:56:57 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]][(-)*8[+]]>)*-1])*-1
13:57:00 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 30.0
13:57:07 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(-)*8[+]][(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
13:57:10 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 29.7
13:57:15 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
13:57:18 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 30.7
13:57:24 <Lymia> No wonder why the evolver has trouble.
13:57:31 <Lymia> Things that seem like they won't affect the score much
13:57:34 <Lymia> Cause a 20 point drop
13:59:11 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->.(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
13:59:14 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 30.2
13:59:18 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->.+>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
13:59:21 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 30.0
13:59:27 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>--->>>+>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
13:59:30 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 31.2
13:59:36 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>--->>>++>>(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
13:59:39 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 29.8
13:59:49 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >++++>--->>>+>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
13:59:52 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 31.1
14:00:02 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >+++>--->>>+>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
14:00:05 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 32.6
14:00:09 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >++>--->>>+>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
14:00:12 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 32.2
14:00:14 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >+++>--->>>+>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
14:00:17 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 32.6
14:00:22 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >+++>--->>>->+>(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
14:00:25 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 32.4
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14:00:28 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >+++>--->>>+>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
14:00:31 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 32.6
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14:00:42 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:00:45 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 27.2
14:00:46 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >+++>--->>>+>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:00:49 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 28.3
14:01:03 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >+++>--->>>+>->(>[>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
14:01:06 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 26.8
14:01:10 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >+++>--->>>+>->(>[>>([(+)*7[-]]>)*-1])*-1
14:01:13 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 32.4
14:01:15 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >+++>--->>>+>->(>[>>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1])*-1
14:01:18 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 32.9
14:01:23 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >+++>--->>>+>->(>[>>([(+)*9[-]]>)*-1])*-1
14:01:26 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 31.6
14:01:28 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >+++>--->>>+>->(>[>>([(+)*5[-]]>)*-1])*-1
14:01:31 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 31.5
14:01:33 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >+++>--->>>+>->(>[>>([(+)*4[-]]>)*-1])*-1
14:01:36 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 28.8
14:01:37 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >+++>--->>>+>->(>[>>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1])*-1
14:01:40 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 32.9
14:01:49 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >+++>--->>>+>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:01:52 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 28.4
14:01:59 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >+++>--->>>+>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*6[+]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:02:02 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 28.5
14:02:09 <Lymia> The nice thing about the programs being related is
14:02:12 <Lymia> Changes in one can be ported >:p
14:03:43 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*6[+]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:03:46 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 29.2
14:04:41 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*7[-]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*7[+]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:04:44 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 29.2
14:04:52 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:04:55 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 28.9
14:05:08 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*6[--]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*6[++]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:05:11 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 29.3
14:05:20 <Lymia> Heh. My assumption was right :p
14:05:24 <Lymia> Stuff that'd trigger that case tend to try and lock
14:05:33 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*6[-.]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*6[+.]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:05:36 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 29.8
14:05:44 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*6[-.-.]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*6[+.+.]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:05:47 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 29.0
14:05:50 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*6[-.-]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*6[+.+]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:05:50 <fizzie> Lymia: You might consider doing some of part of that iteration in a /query, and just showing the highlights; I mean, it is kind of noisy.
14:05:53 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 26.2
14:06:04 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*6[-.]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*6[+.]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:06:07 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 29.8
14:08:22 <fizzie> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130325-colorslide.png this must be the most colorful slide I've done, at least discounting the ones with actual pictures on them. (I was thinking I'd illustrate which part goes where so that nobody has to stop and ask.)
14:10:34 <elliott> fizzie: I guess you have to do that kind of thing when your audience is speech recognition researchers
14:13:51 <fizzie> They're not the audience for that slide.
14:14:04 <fizzie> Well, maybe there could be some in the audience, I don't know.
14:14:29 <fizzie> But the class in general doesn't have anything specifically to do with speech recognition; it's T-61.5140 Machine Learning: Advanced Probabilistic Methods.
14:14:56 <fizzie> (I guess it's kind of in the same field, but more general, if you want to be picky about it.)
14:18:04 <fizzie> It has the \beta_i^k's in magenta because they're part of both the red and blue groups. (This is what passes for wit around here.)
14:19:44 <elliott> starting to understand the poverty of finnish minds
14:19:53 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >+++>>--->>->+>(>[>>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1])*-1
14:19:56 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 33.5
14:20:07 <elliott> feel like this may provide clues as to why they think speech recognition research is worthwhile
14:21:05 <fizzie> We had a Google guy here recently who seemed to think that, too.
14:21:16 <fizzie> Then again, Google, right?
14:24:58 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller (>)*7(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*6[-.]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*6[+.]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:25:01 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 30.5
14:25:02 <elliott> one day i'm going to meet fizzie irl and i will have ALL my best speech recognition zingers prepared
14:25:14 <elliott> he may never recover from the burns
14:26:32 <Lymia> Despite the similarity, flow needs its decoys and godkiller doesn't
14:26:49 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller <
14:26:52 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 0.0
14:26:54 <Lymia> !bfjoust aurora (>)*7(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*6[-.]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*6[+.]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:26:57 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_aurora: 30.5
14:32:33 <ais523> Lymia: using decoys slows down both programs
14:32:38 <ais523> so it's a case of who benefits from the delay more
14:34:32 <Lymia> !bfjoust aurora (>)*4(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*6[-.]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*6[+.]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:34:35 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_aurora: 33.9
14:34:46 <Lymia> !bfjoust aurora (>)*7(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*6[-.]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*6[+.]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:34:49 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_aurora: 30.9
14:35:05 <Lymia> !bfjoust aurora (>)*4(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*6[-.]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*6[+.]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:35:08 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_aurora: 33.9
14:36:07 <Lymia> Somehow the smaller initial jump earns a win against ais523_waterfall3
14:36:35 <ais523> Lymia: oh, waterfall3 is very sensitive to timing details
14:36:43 <ais523> even more so than omnipotence is
14:36:43 <Lymia> !bfjoust aurora (>)*4(.)*3(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*6[-.]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*6[+.]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:36:46 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_aurora: 33.0
14:36:57 <ais523> so it's possible that you just happen to be hitting a combination of timings it's bad at
14:37:00 <Lymia> !bfjoust aurora (>)*4(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*6[-.]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*6[+.]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:37:03 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_aurora: 33.9
14:37:09 <Lymia> It keeps the waterfall win even with the extra delays
14:37:20 <ais523> well, waterfall attempts to synchronize
14:37:27 <ais523> it's entirely about synchronization, really
14:39:34 <Lymia> And the only thing sacrified is win->tie for Deewiant_tolstoi.bfjoust
14:41:16 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >+++>--->(>[>>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1])*-1
14:41:21 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 37.0
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15:34:13 <Lymia> fizzie, something is seriously wrong with your match time plot
15:34:20 <Lymia> The two "<"s on the hill right now have red cells
15:34:23 <Lymia> Which is impossible
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15:44:43 <Lymia> !bfjoust generation-358_evo-27660-27915 -..->--[-..->--[-..->--[-..->--[-..->--[+]+]+]+]+]+
15:44:46 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_generation-358_evo-27660-27915: 10.1
15:48:32 <fizzie> Lymia: There are no "<"s in my plot.
15:48:47 <fizzie> The smallest program in it has 16 characters.
15:49:02 <Lymia> fizzie, I reran it on the current hill
15:49:04 <Lymia> Which has <s in it
15:49:31 <fizzie> Well, which plot is this about?
15:49:45 <Lymia> It's the really chaotic one
15:49:51 <Lymia> That's supposed to be how many cycles it takes
15:50:19 <Lymia> !bfjoust generation-364_evo-27660-28619 --.->-[--.->-[--.->-[--.->-[--.->-[+]+]+]+]+]+
15:50:22 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_generation-364_evo-27660-28619: 10.1
15:50:34 <Lymia> wee counting points vs counting csore
15:50:37 <fizzie> And you're using the fixed version of cranklance?
15:51:03 <Lymia> Fixed version of cranklance?
15:51:18 <fizzie> Something that's later than http://git.zem.fi/chainlance/commit/e50392f
15:52:07 <fizzie> 2013-03-24 19:47:25 <fizzie> Lymia: You'll want to update your cranklance to fix what was discussed above, if you're doing cranking.
15:52:28 <Lymia> I'll retry it with that in a bit
15:52:35 <Lymia> !bfjoust generation-365_evo-28453-28710 >-.->.-[>-.->.-[>-.->.-[>-.->.-[>-.->.-[+]+]+]+]+]+
15:52:38 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_generation-365_evo-28453-28710: 0.0
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15:53:51 <Lymia> I'm going to have to teach my evolver about
15:53:55 <Lymia> Convincing and not-convincing wins
15:54:21 <Lymia> !bfjoust generation-368_evo-27660-28982 >.-->-[>.-->-[>.-->-[>.-->-[>.-->-[+]+]+]+]+]+
15:54:24 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_generation-368_evo-27660-28982: 0.0
15:54:42 <Lymia> wins*wins*sign(wins) would be a decent indicator?
15:56:30 <fizzie> I don't know what "wins" is, and when it would be negative.
15:57:05 <Lymia> [Average fitness: -154911.90625, Max fitness: -52880.0]
15:57:07 <Lymia> this is distressing
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16:05:42 <Taneb> I also have a stiff neck
16:06:26 <Taneb> I have a stupid immune system and I slept on someone's living room floor right next to a Metro line night before last
16:06:29 <fizzie> Do you people know each other? (It certainly had the appearance of that.)
16:11:47 <kmc> what kind of metro
16:12:41 <Taneb> kmc, Tyne and Wear Metro
16:14:35 <Lymia> !bfjoust generation-375_evo-28745-29431 >--->-[>--->-[>--->-[>--->-[>--->-[+]+]+]+]+]+
16:14:39 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_generation-375_evo-28745-29431: 0.0
16:14:43 <Taneb> fizzie, I do not know Shambhala, as far as I am aware
16:17:22 <ais523> Taneb: probably best to check if he/she's from Hexham
16:17:29 <HackEgo> Shambhala: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:17:36 <Taneb> ais523, I do know people from outside of Hexham
16:17:50 <ais523> but three hexhamites being in the channel would be even more of a coincidence than two
16:17:58 <Taneb> Shambhala, are you from Hexham?
16:18:31 <Lymia> !bfjoust generation-375_evo-28745-29431_golfed (>--->-[{+}]+)%5
16:18:34 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_generation-375_evo-28745-29431_golfed: 0.0
16:18:38 <Lymia> !bfjoust generation-375_evo-28745-29431_golfed (--->-[{+}]+)%10
16:18:42 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_generation-375_evo-28745-29431_golfed: 12.0
16:18:50 <Lymia> What is the evolver thinking
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16:20:55 <ais523> Lymia: yeah, that just stops after a while
16:21:01 <ais523> or if it finds any decoy of size 1
16:21:09 <ais523> it's like a halfhearted rush that gives up after a bit
16:21:34 <Lymia> ais523, it thinks this is /better/ than previous generations.
16:21:38 <Lymia> Which makes me go WTF
16:21:45 <ais523> mistake somewhere, presumably
16:21:48 <Lymia> I'm going to guess that it rushes faster.
16:21:50 <ais523> there was a famous incident in the very early days of BF Joust
16:21:53 <Lymia> Causing it to win against more enemies.
16:21:56 <ais523> where the hill marked wins as losses, and losses as wins
16:21:59 <ais523> and nobody noticed for a while
16:22:30 <Lymia> ais523, as far as I can tell, this would rush faster in some cases.
16:22:37 <Lymia> Which could be enough for it to win half the time against more enemies.
16:22:50 <Lymia> Which would make a fitness increase overall.
16:22:52 <ais523> !bfjoust pure_rush (>)*8(>+[-])*21
16:22:55 <Lymia> But a decease by EgoBot's terms
16:22:55 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_pure_rush: 8.4
16:23:08 <ais523> it does worse than your golfed evolver
16:23:16 <ais523> oh, I see, your evolver trails
16:23:30 <ais523> !bfjoust pure_rush_with_Trail (+++>)*8(>+[-])*21
16:23:33 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_pure_rush_with_Trail: 15.0
16:23:42 <ais523> yeah, that's similar to a fixed version of what your program is doing
16:23:49 <ais523> !bfjoust pure_rush_with_Trail <
16:23:52 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_pure_rush_with_Trail: 0.0
16:25:12 <Lymia> ais523, what's EgoBot's algorithm for stuff like that anyways?
16:25:45 <Lymia> It's clearly counting neutral (i.e. no overall losses or wins against programs) as worse than some losses and some wins.
16:26:04 <Lymia> It filters out negative points
16:26:51 <ais523> yeah, it only counts wins
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16:32:56 <Lymia> !bfjoust best ((++-+++-)*-1++-+++-)*-1++-+++-
16:33:00 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_best: 17.4
16:33:03 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_best: 0.0
16:34:55 <ais523> Lymia: you put some code after a *-1?
16:35:40 <ais523> it might work better (or might not!) to cut out dead code
16:36:22 <Lymia> (the evolver just declared an entire specis no good.)
16:36:36 <Lymia> Speciation is actually working quite nicely.
16:36:55 <Lymia> I checked each species-- rushes and vibrators are defiantly getting separated.
16:39:37 <ais523> I wonder if it'll ever evolve a lock-based program
16:39:43 <Lymia> And then the rushes died out.
16:39:46 <Lymia> ais523, lock-based being?
16:39:47 <ais523> my guess is no, there are no obvious intermediate steps
16:39:50 <Lymia> omnipotence and such?
16:40:08 <ais523> Lymia: a program that tries to trap the opponent in an infinite loop while slowly grinding away
16:40:14 <ais523> omnipotence uses it as a backup strategy
16:40:21 <Lymia> It'd need to account for polarities.
16:40:32 <Lymia> Then, the position of the head when it does something...
16:40:53 <Lymia> ais523, actually. a pesudo-lock might be evolvable.
16:41:27 <ais523> the problem is not writing the lock itself, (+.)*-1 can work against many programs
16:41:38 <ais523> it's writing a way to win without breaking the lock
16:41:45 <Lymia> (>)*9[[(+.)*100(<)*9(+)*100(>)*9]>]
16:41:50 <Lymia> !bfjoust test (>)*9[[(+.)*100(<)*9(+)*100(>)*9]>]
16:41:54 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_test: 7.3
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16:41:58 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_test: 0.0
16:42:42 <ais523> this is why defence programs are so long
16:42:44 <Lymia> !bfjoust test (>)*9[[(+.)*50(<)*9(+)*100(>)*9]>]
16:42:47 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_test: 7.2
16:42:47 <ais523> there's no known short way to write a full-tape clear
16:42:52 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_test: 0.0
16:43:02 <ais523> Lymia: that runs off the end of the program if there's nothing on cell 9
16:43:09 <ais523> and there probably is nothing on cell 9
16:43:25 <Lymia> !bfjoust test (>)*9([(+.)*50(<)*9(+)*100(>)*9]>)*-1
16:43:28 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_test: 10.3
16:43:38 <Lymia> !bfjoust test (>+)*9([(+.)*50(<)*9(+)*100(>)*9]>)*-1
16:43:41 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_test: 2.5
16:43:48 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_test: 0.0
16:43:54 <Lymia> Right. We have a stupid hill where no decoys sometimes beats decoys
16:44:12 <ais523> Lymia: that's to be expected, really
16:44:21 <ais523> omnipotence can function just fine without the decoy
16:44:28 <ais523> it's actually there for constant-tweaking purposes
16:45:01 <ais523> but in general, any pattern is exploitable
16:45:01 <Lymia> ais523, my current direction of development is trying to make an encoding that can encode repetitive stuff like that, without spelling out every loop.
16:45:16 <ais523> programs like the anticipation series rely on opponents using the same clear loop on every cell, for instance
16:45:46 <ais523> and so are really easily defeated by an opponent designed to beat them
16:45:54 <ais523> or that just acts unusually
16:46:07 <ais523> e.g. omnipotence doesn't use a traditional clear loop, and against anticipation, anticipation zeroes its own flag as a result
16:46:45 <Taneb> Any program written by me is gonna be pretty nave
16:48:02 <Lymia> ais523, I'm thinking that
16:48:19 <Lymia> The only viable option is an evolver that can somehow evolve on a level of patterns, to where it can develop complex stuff like that
16:48:28 <Lymia> I havn't yet found a representation that works well.
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16:50:08 <Lymia> !bfjoust evolved-vibration (-.+++)*-1
16:50:12 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_evolved-vibration: 18.6
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17:02:23 <Lymia> ais523, rerunning with no external hill.
17:02:28 <Lymia> This time, with EgoBot-like score rules
17:02:32 <Lymia> Let's see how it works out~ :p
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17:17:33 <Lymia> ais523, as of generation 15
17:17:52 <Lymia> "max fitness" is a measure of approximately what percentage of the population immediately commits suicide.
17:20:00 <ais523> wouldn't species that immediately committed suicide die out pretty quickly, though?
17:20:41 <Lymia> It's only certain individuals who gain an < opcode
17:21:04 <Lymia> The occational 0.0 is those
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17:30:01 <Lymia> ais523, a lot of the instant suicides are because of code I added to not give empty organisms a chance. (i.e, they're replaced with <)
17:31:00 <Lymia> Because of the way the system works, an empty organism is a pretty good sign that none of its genes can be activated-- which is hard to undo
17:31:18 * Lymia still needs to write crossover
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18:01:14 <dbelange> Sry if this is a stupid question: It's said that there are infinitely many prime numbers and the higher you count the fewer primes you get. Shouldn't that mean the prime counting sequence converges to 0 and therefore primes are finite?
18:01:46 <dbelange> If Pi contains an infinite number of numbers, is it possible that within this infinity, there is an infinite series of 1's?
18:02:02 <ion> Pi? or pi?
18:02:28 <dbelange> How can zero be counted as a positive number? What is a definition of a positive number (that does not use zero in its definition)?
18:02:29 <Taneb> dbelange, it's happily asymptote to 0
18:02:47 <Taneb> dbelange, it can't, and I can't think of one
18:03:01 <kmc> dbelange: there are infinitely many powers of two, and the higher you count the further apart they are
18:03:03 <dbelange> Can any of you think of a real world culture in which the concept of negative or irrational numbers was established before the concept of 0? Furthermore, what was the context of the irrational or negative concept?
18:03:16 <kmc> yet there are clearly an infinite number of powers of two
18:04:03 <kmc> if there were an infinite run of 1's in pi, then it would have a repeating decimal expansion and thus be rational
18:04:28 <kmc> but pi is irrational and you can find many proofs of this online
18:04:47 <kmc> it is hypothesized that the expansion of pi contains every *finite* digit sequence
18:04:51 <kmc> but this is not proven
18:05:16 <Bike> Ancient Greece was a culture that had irrationals but not zero `-`
18:06:06 <tromp> pi is conjectured to be normal: in any base b, any sequence of k digits occurs with frequency b^-k
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18:07:42 <tromp> there's basically only one number that's been proven normal; even though almost all real numbers are normal
18:08:27 <kmc> kind of like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khinchin%27s_constant
18:08:36 <kmc> which is a really weird mathematical fact
18:09:12 <kmc> for almost all real numbers, the geometric mean of the continued fraction coefficients is 2.6854520010...
18:09:33 <kmc> also "It is not known if Khinchin's constant is a rational, algebraic irrational or transcendental number"
18:10:30 <Bike> the feigenbaum constants are about as weird for me.
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18:12:16 <kmc> dbelange: "What is a definition of a positive number (that does not use zero in its definition)" <-- this is a fairly meaningless question I think
18:12:27 <kmc> you can say "a positive number is either one, or the successor of a positive number"
18:13:13 <kmc> which defines the terms "positive number", "one", and "successor", ignoring whatever external definition they had
18:13:19 <kmc> that's a perfectly fine mathematical formalism
18:13:33 <kmc> it's isomorphic to the natural numbers except that you've renamed "zero" to "one"
18:14:19 <kmc> however if you want to define addition and multiplication and whatever on these "positive numbers" then you don't get very far
18:14:35 <kmc> because there's no additive identity so it doesn't have group or even monoid structure
18:14:59 <kmc> or else you take "one" to be the additive identity and then it really is zero just with a funny name
18:15:17 <boily> number is only three degrees to philosophy: number -> mathematical object -> abstract object (redirect to: abstract and concrete) -> philosophy.
18:15:36 <kmc> dbelange: is this homework or something
18:15:40 <zzo38> O, you play Wikipedia.
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18:16:56 <Bike> do not taunt happy fun #esoteric
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18:30:00 <zzo38> I can view what individual player is most rebound, most scoring, most stealing, most block, most three points, etc, but isn't teamwork more important?
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18:40:26 <zzo38> My *team* is the most stealing, but not my player, for example.
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18:43:56 <Taneb> Should I trust my intuition or my quick calculation
18:47:07 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:47:30 <zzo38> Whatever works for the circumstances.
18:47:55 <boily> I thought intuition and a quick calculation were the same thing?
18:49:07 <Taneb> Intuition is "what it should be"
18:49:33 <Taneb> Quick calculation is "what's the inverse cos of 0.8"
18:53:42 <zzo38> The AI in Pokemon Card GB2 draws too many cards!!
18:57:03 <Taneb> zzo38, so many it breaks the rules?
18:57:16 <Taneb> Or just more than would form the optimum strategy
18:58:42 <ais523> zzo38: the AI in the original Pokémon Card for GB gets a luck advantage, as well
18:58:51 <ais523> the most powerful opponents never have a bad starting hand
18:59:16 <zzo38> Taneb: No, I mean more than the strategy. They lose due to having too many cards.
18:59:36 <Taneb> zzo38, that's roughly what I meant
18:59:47 <Taneb> (I don't know the Pokemon Card game at all)
19:00:06 <Taneb> (other than the fact that Team Rocket's Meowth doesn't evolve into Persian)
19:01:24 -!- oerjan has set topic: The 2^4+1st vigintile welcoming channel on Freenode. You have been warned. | Safe when used as directed. | Newsflash: fungot has been writing spam for Joe Chip. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:01:28 <zzo38> Taneb: Well, if you have the card "Team Rocket's Meowth" then you can only evolve into "Team Rocket's Persian".
19:01:45 <Taneb> zzo38, that is literally all I remember from the TCG
19:02:02 <zzo38> Evolving "Team Rocket's Meowth" into "Persian" is not allowed, though.
19:02:10 <zzo38> ais523: I didn't know that. Now I know.
19:02:19 <zzo38> Still, the AI is not very good.
19:02:41 <ais523> team rocket's meowth evolving would completely ruin the anime
19:03:05 <Taneb> It'd be like Ash's Pikachu evolving
19:03:21 <zzo38> ais523: I know, but this is the card game. The card "Team Rocket's Persian" may not exist, but it would be the card it could be evolved into if it did exist.
19:03:33 <zzo38> In Pokemon Card GB2 the AI is a bit better, but still not very good, such as they draw too many cards.
19:03:50 <zzo38> And are not very good at defense.
19:04:09 <boily> Team Rocket should evolve too, if there is a Persian to their Meowth.
19:04:21 <Taneb> Thinking about it, in the anime, there was a Team Rocket's Persian
19:04:26 <Taneb> It was owned by Giovanni
19:04:35 <Taneb> "Jessie evolved into Giovanni"
19:04:52 <Taneb> "James evolved into pile of money that only exists in Meowth's imagination!"
19:05:10 <ais523> Taneb: yeah, Giovanni had a Persian
19:05:23 <ais523> but it's clearly a different Pokémon from the Meowth that's featured in basically every episode
19:05:42 <Taneb> Hey, time travel does exist in the anime canon
19:06:15 <zzo38> O, so that is why it is inconsistent.
19:06:27 <Taneb> zzo38, I was referring to the fourth movie
19:08:05 <zzo38> How I usually play the card game though is when cards are picked at random to construct the deck, allow evolving into any card with the same energy type as long as all of the cards in the stack are capable of evolving that high. Evolving into the proper card is also OK, even if the type is wrong.
19:11:19 <zzo38> We put ten cards face-up on the floor, and then take turns selecting one. This is repeated, with the players alternating the first pick, until we have 45 cards each. If any basic energy cards come up while doing this, they are put aside and replacements are put in. When we each have 45 cards, we construct a deck using a subset of those cards and basic energy cards to make 60 cards in total.
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19:12:28 <ais523> Taneb: I'm not entirely sure if the movies are canon
19:12:51 <ais523> actually, I think the usual rule is that Celebi is capable of time travel, and Dialga is effectively omnipotent when it comes to time
19:12:56 <ais523> and nothing else can time travel naturally
19:13:11 <Taneb> Okay, if you treat the movies as canon, it's not completely inconceivable that Meowth is Persian
19:13:22 <Taneb> And Dialga could take Meowth back
19:13:36 <ais523> time travel's never been seen to be capable of duplicating people in Pokémon, as far as I know
19:13:48 <ais523> although, yeah, Dialga can do anything like that because that's its shtick
19:14:02 <Taneb> (cf. Explorers of Time and Darkness with Grovyle)
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19:15:12 <Taneb> But I don't think I care about this at all
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19:20:38 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, new Ubuntu release discussion
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19:22:28 <Taneb> http://xkcd.com/178/
19:23:27 <ais523> early xkcd is worse than recent xkcd on average
19:25:06 <Taneb> http://xkcd.com/3/ is the funniest
19:25:36 <ais523> I think xkcd's job is mostly being insightful, rather than funny
19:25:46 <ais523> it should entertain in the "I didn't know that" or "I didn't think of that" sense
19:25:53 <ais523> rather than the "that's a good joke" sense
19:26:19 <ais523> or it's not xkcd, but a different website altogether
19:28:07 <kmc> there are some painfully bad old strips yeah
19:28:26 <kmc> but the best strips from the early days are something it very very rarely hits now
19:28:27 <oerjan> <shachaf> q what is the obvious generalizsation of (.)?
19:28:43 <oerjan> :t ((Control.Category..),fmap)
19:28:44 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Control.Category.Category cat) => (cat b c -> cat a b -> cat a c, (a1 -> b1) -> f a1 -> f b1)
19:28:55 <Taneb> ais523, it'd be like IWC without Lego or roleplaying or science
19:29:03 <Taneb> Or Homestuck without the I don't want to know
19:29:19 <oerjan> :t [(Control.Category..),fmap]
19:29:40 <kmc> ais523: I think you're right that it tries to teach and amaze, but it's usually a poor fit for the graphical medium
19:29:58 <kmc> i mean every month or two there's a cool visualization
19:30:16 <kmc> but mostly, it's like, two stick figures discuss wikipedia using dialogue that in no way resembles how people actually talk
19:30:18 <ais523> this is why what if is better than the main xckd
19:30:21 <kmc> then a pannel with an unfunny punchlinke
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19:30:32 <kmc> then a panel with completely pointless post-punchline dialogue
19:31:20 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, it's used in a comic so that makes slightly more appropriate
19:31:26 <Taneb> At least it isn't Papyrus
19:31:52 <Phantom_Hoover> but comic sans looks nothing like actual comic lettering!
19:31:54 <kmc> probably xkcd started going downhill when it became a staple of the subculture it was trying to propagate and comment on
19:32:12 <kmc> either that or randall munroe just ran out of funny things his MIT friends told him about
19:33:21 <tswett> Hm. I think I just came up with an esoteric programming language.
19:33:25 <oerjan> (.) :: cat b c -> f b -> f c
19:34:13 <oerjan> class Dottable cat f where (.) :: cat b c -> f b -> f c
19:34:15 <boily> (how would one translate «combientième» in English?)
19:34:17 <shachaf> oerjan: imo (.) = rmap or (.) = flip lmap
19:34:25 <lambdabot> Profunctor p => (b -> c) -> p a b -> p a c
19:34:27 <lambdabot> Profunctor p => (a -> b) -> p b c -> p a c
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19:34:41 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how the wp article in star trek into darkness still has two different kinds of page protection on it
19:34:56 <oerjan> shachaf: um my type generalizes at least rmap
19:35:03 <boily> ~duck star trek into darkness
19:35:04 <metasepia> Star Trek Into Darkness is an upcoming American science fiction action film directed by J. J. Abrams, written by Roberto Orci, Alex Kurtzman, and Damon Lindelof, and produced by Abrams, Bryan Burk, Lindelof, Kurtzman, and Orci.
19:35:19 <shachaf> oerjan: fmap also generaliszes rmap
19:35:22 <tswett> boily: looking at monolingual definitions of "combentième", I think that English just doesn't have a word for that.
19:35:38 <shachaf> oerjan: want to wrestle on the floor about it
19:35:49 <boily> tswett: I wanted to ask «c'est ton combientième?», but stumbled midway in English.
19:35:56 <tswett> You could say "whichth", but only if you're trying to confuse your readers.
19:35:59 <oerjan> shachaf: hm i guess it does
19:36:41 <boily> tswett: my translator brain-module is due for an oil change. it gets stuck much too often.
19:37:05 <tswett> Yeah, I think you just can't do that in English. You'd have to say something like "How many have you done before?"
19:37:16 * oerjan throws Phantom_Hoover into an spj lecture
19:38:14 <tswett> Or I guess you could say "How many does this make?" (the answer being "this makes five" if this is my fifth).
19:38:50 <tswett> You know what, I think I'm going to name this language Combientième.
19:39:14 <tswett> Since it's going to be kind of like Forth, and I wanted to make a pun on that name.
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19:42:07 <oerjan> tswett: you need to leave out one of the vowels in the diphtong hth
19:42:47 <oerjan> hm i guess there are two diphthongs, maybe?
19:42:58 <boily> there are no diphtongs in French.
19:43:28 <tswett> Maybe I need to respell it in some other way that leaves the pronunciation the same.
19:43:39 <tswett> How would "combientièm" be pronounced? Would the "m" be silent?
19:43:43 <oerjan> hm maybe leave out the final e, it's essentially silent like the u in fourth
19:43:47 <boily> and in that case, those are only glides: /kɔ̃bjɛ̃tjɛm/
19:44:39 <oerjan> i'm not enough of a linguist to know the difference between a glide and a diphtong.
19:45:16 <boily> tswett: chopping off the silent e wouldn't change the pronounciation.
19:45:17 <oerjan> i mean, there's something written as a vowel and pronounced almost like a consonant, next to something written as a vowel and pronounced as one.
19:45:43 <boily> a diphtong is a smooth transition between to vowels.
19:45:58 <tswett> It wouldn't change the pronunciation from /kɔ̃.bjɛ̃.tjɛm/ to /kɔ̃.bjɛ̃.tjɑ̃/?
19:46:37 <boily> no, because it'd need to be an «n» instead of an «m» to get /ɑ̃/.
19:47:05 <boily> oerjan: French orthography is mainly a cheaty obfuscatory encoding.
19:47:50 <boily> dbelange: ne vois-tu pas dans mes yeux sensuels que je t'adore :p
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19:48:35 <oerjan> boily: well it's not as cheaty as english.
19:48:58 <oerjan> i recall you can mostly do one direction by simple rules
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19:50:31 <boily> oerjan: e.g. "they loved" -> «ils aimaient». you need 5 letters (aient) for a simple /ɛ/.
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19:51:20 <oerjan> <boily> a diphtong is a smooth transition between to vowels. <-- this definition _might_ imply that what i have learned are called diphthongs in norwegian aren't... or perhaps it's that some other combinations that are _not_ written with vowel letters _are_...
19:51:27 <Taneb> "thorough" in English has a one-letter schwa... then a 4-letter schwa
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19:52:07 <metasepia> A diphthong, also known as a gliding vowel, refers to two adjacent vowel sounds occurring within the same syllable.
19:52:07 <oerjan> boily: well -ent is a bit special.
19:52:20 <boily> damn you, duck! way to confuse me.
19:52:25 <olsner> Taneb: you should start spelling it þoro
19:52:44 <Taneb> olsner, that just makes me think of frozen yoghurt
19:52:45 <boily> Taneb: true. good counter-example.
19:53:00 <olsner> þoroly frozen yoghurt?
20:00:43 <boily> I think I found an interesting explanation about glides and diphtongs: http://linguistics.stackexchange.com/a/1147
20:02:41 <nooodl> the <ough> in "thorough" isn't a schwa, is it
20:03:06 <nooodl> oh apparently it is for some speakers
20:03:28 <olsner> I say it something like "owe"
20:03:43 <Taneb> nooodl, some accents it's like oh, some it's like uh
20:04:16 <nooodl> when i was a kid i pronounced it as "through"
20:04:47 <nooodl> i just read "thoroughly" as "throughly" for the longest time. then i realized, wow, hey, there's an o in there
20:05:06 <Taneb> I pronounce through throoo
20:09:07 <ais523> @tell elliott btw, I came up with an interim method for dealing with the spambots while the abuse filter is broken; if I see that it would have blocked a spambot but didn't due to being broken, I block the spambot by hand before it can post elsewhere
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20:26:58 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
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20:28:28 <boily> ah! as informative as ever :D
20:29:05 <tswett> I opened up GHCi. It evaluates id 3 as 3.
20:30:04 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> a0))
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20:34:19 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
20:34:34 <olsner> is metasepia a species of cuttlefish?
20:35:24 <olsner> oh, it's a whole genus
20:35:38 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
20:35:45 <metasepia> Error (1): Not in scope: data constructor `З'
20:36:15 <tswett> It only works if your nick starts with t.
20:36:24 -!- boily has changed nick to toily.
20:36:50 -!- toily has changed nick to boily.
20:36:51 <oerjan> `run echo 'id 3' | toutf8
20:37:20 <oerjan> this is not the program you are looking for, oerjan
20:38:02 <tswett> So what does toutf8 do?
20:38:15 <oerjan> i don't know, i think i was looking for something else
20:38:25 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/python \ import sys \ import chardet \ x = sys.stdin.read() \ enc = chardet.detect(x)['encoding'] \ sys.stdout.write(x.decode(enc).encode('UTF-8'))
20:38:47 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping
20:38:56 <HackEgo> 0000000: 6964 e19a 8033 0a id...3.
20:39:09 <boily> `run echo あ | od -Ax -tx1z -v
20:39:11 <HackEgo> 000000 e3 81 82 0a >....< \ 000004
20:40:17 <oerjan> i am pretty sure fizzie or someone showed me there was a program to write out the codepoints on a line, and i thought it was on HackEgo
20:40:39 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: about acro aol austro bc bct bf2c bfbignum botsnack brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes cat chaos chiqrsx9p choo cmd cpick ctcp dc decide drawl drome dubya echo ehird elmer fudd glogbot_ignore google graph hello helloworld id inc insanetemp jethro kraut lg lperl lsh map monqy num numberwang ook pansy pi pikhq ping pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler prefixes python python2 redneck reverse rimshot rot13 rot47 ruby_ sadbf sanetemp sf
20:41:21 <fungot> 105 100 225 154 128 51
20:41:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: chr: not found
20:41:48 <HackEgo> 49 32 50 32 51 32 52 32 53
20:42:39 <tswett> `ord 53 51 32 53 49 32 51 50 32 53 51 32 52 57
20:42:41 <HackEgo> 53 51 32 53 49 32 51 50 32 53 51 32 52 57 32 51 50 32 53 49 32 53 48 32 51 50 32 53 51 32 53 49 32 51 50 32 53 50 32 53 55
20:43:30 <EgoBot> perl for (<>) {lc; s/l(?!e\W)/w/g; s/\Ber|(?<!f)or\b/uh/g; s/ire\b/iyuh/g; s/wr\B/w/g; s/(?<![iou])r\B/w/gx; print}
20:44:10 <olsner> hmm, that gibberish has a certain beauty
20:44:29 <olsner> not quite as much as ursala programs though
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20:47:35 <oerjan> > fix (unwords . map (show . ord) . ('5':) . tail)
20:48:00 <oerjan> > fix (unwords . map (show . ord) . ('5':) . tail)
20:48:06 <olsner> @type unwords . map (show . ord) . ('5':) . tail
20:48:42 <oerjan> that shouldn't matter there
20:48:43 <tswett> No, that shouldn't matter.
20:49:25 <oerjan> maybe unwords is too strict
20:49:26 <tswett> > fix (unwords . map (show . ord) . ("53 51 ") . drop 6)
20:49:27 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a0 -> [GHC.Types.Char]'
20:49:32 <tswett> > fix (unwords . map (show . ord) . ("53 51 "++) . drop 6)
20:49:34 <lambdabot> "53 51 32 53 49 32 51 50 32 53 51 32 52 57 32 51 50 32 53 49 32 53 48 32 51...
20:50:20 <oerjan> > unwords . map (show . ord) $ '5':undefined
20:50:59 <oerjan> > unwords $ "53" : undefined
20:51:48 <lambdabot> unwords ws = foldr1 (\w s -> w ++ ' ':s) ws
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20:52:27 <oerjan> > let unwords [] = ""; unwords ws = foldr1 (\w s -> w ++ ' ':s) ws in unwords $ "53" : undefined
20:53:23 <oerjan> ok foldr1 does need to know whether there is a following element
20:54:02 <lambdabot> foldr1 f (x:xs) = f x (foldr1 f xs)
20:55:53 <oerjan> > fix (map ord . show)
20:57:07 <oerjan> so much slightly inferior laziness
20:58:21 <oerjan> > fix (map ord . ('[':) . tail . show)
20:58:23 <lambdabot> [91,57,49,44,53,55,44,52,57,44,52,52,44,53,51,44,53,53,44,52,52,44,53,50,44...
20:58:34 <lambdabot> In a flat choice between smoke and jobs, we're for jobs...But just keep me out of trouble on environmental issues.
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21:02:12 <oerjan> <kmc> also <kmc> performing arbitrary computation by means of conditional vacation autoresponders <-- i hope this is your actual vacation message?
21:03:59 <olsner> kmc: sounds like fun anyway
21:04:33 <olsner> did someone accidentally the vacation autoresponder turing complete?
21:05:06 <kmc> it's hypothetical but I think someone should do it
21:05:14 <olsner> (if you want a verb, feel free to add "make" after accidentally)
21:06:51 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
21:07:53 <olsner> (then again, "make" is a simple enough verb that it really should be optional)
21:09:51 <Taneb> How can I explain the difference in meaning between "my" and "of me"?
21:10:52 <kmc> is there one?
21:11:17 <kmc> well I guess I can't help then
21:11:37 <kmc> maybe give some examples where you think "of me" is actually incorrect, as opposed to just awkward in the sense of "nobody would actually say that"
21:11:48 <kmc> ofc. admitting a distinction between these is the thin end of the prescriptivist wedge!
21:12:10 <tswett> I can't immediately think of a case where "my" and "of me" can both be used and have different meanings.
21:12:11 <kmc> IS YOUR WASHROOM BREEDING PRESCRIPTIVISTS?
21:12:18 <Taneb> Especially in latin (mei vs. meus)
21:14:08 <Taneb> "my", masculine accusative
21:14:10 <olsner> there's a difference between "picture of me" and "my picture"
21:14:43 <tswett> "Picture of me" always means "picture depicting me", never "picture owned by me".
21:15:01 <tswett> Whereas "my picture" could mean either.
21:15:19 <tswett> ("Let me give you his picture.")
21:15:20 <kmc> i think "of" is a bit overloaded
21:15:29 <Taneb> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/meus#Latin
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21:16:49 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, meus is an adjective, ego is a pronoun
21:16:52 <olsner> something like me vs myself?
21:17:16 <nooodl> the genitive of ego is mei
21:18:06 <nooodl> "pictura mei" is a picture of me, "pictura mea" is my picture
21:18:07 <oerjan> Taneb: now include "of mine" in this hth
21:18:53 <Phantom_Hoover> nooodl, but the genitive can also be written 'of me' and 'picture of me' is valid both ways in english
21:20:16 <nooodl> would you really say stuff like
21:20:21 <nooodl> "this is a pen of me."
21:20:29 <nooodl> instead of "this is my pen"
21:21:58 <Phantom_Hoover> note that 'this is taneb's picture' could also refer to a picture depicting taneb
21:22:46 <nooodl> what're we even being confused about
21:22:55 <Taneb> meus vs mei in Latin
21:23:13 <nooodl> meus is "belonging to me", always
21:23:29 <nooodl> if you want to use other genitives than the possessive one, use mei
21:23:48 <olsner> woah, are there several genitives?
21:23:55 <nooodl> "metus mei" "fear of me"
21:24:05 <nooodl> there's a good list near the top of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genitive_case
21:24:25 <olsner> that's like 12 genitives o.O
21:24:30 <nooodl> the "composition" one is used really often too ("a bottle of wine") but that isn't really easy to use with "me"
21:24:45 <nooodl> maybe stuff like "you want a piece of me?!" but that doesn't translate well to latin obviously
21:24:49 <oerjan> olsner: just wait until you get to latin's versions of _infinitives_...
21:25:17 <nooodl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ablative_(Latin)
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21:35:27 <olsner> oh, how stupid... the tv series "24" uses a 12h clock, so half way through the series you're back at 01
21:36:51 <tswett> 24 doesn't take place entirely in a single day, does it?
21:37:02 <tswett> Here, have an esolang: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Combienti%C3%A8m
21:37:03 <kmc> i thought that was the whole gimmick
21:37:19 <kmc> however time keeps going during commercial breaks
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21:37:35 <kmc> presumably that's when jack bauer goes to the bathroom
21:37:41 <olsner> everyone stops doing bad stuff during commercial breaks
21:39:16 <tswett> Ah. *Each season* takes place entirely in a single day.
21:39:23 <kmc> it's one day per season, which is what a british person would call a "series"
21:39:50 <tswett> So what do Brits call series?
21:39:55 <kmc> programmes
21:39:57 <tswett> Do they just call them programmes?
21:40:06 <olsner> they'll have trouble with the reruns though - with more commercials, time in the series will pass slower and slower
21:40:06 <tswett> I like asking questions right after someone tells me the answer.
21:42:58 <olsner> hmm, series was a typo, I meant half-way through the season
21:43:14 <olsner> I just forgot about seasons 2-8 for a while
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21:45:12 <olsner> I've also failed to find good information about what vacation auto responders can normally do... does everyone build their own script for that?
21:49:15 <olsner> a sane one would also be explicitly designed not to cause a loop, but that's what we want
21:50:04 <tswett> Okay, so I guess I'm trying to figure out how computation in Combientièm might work.
21:51:28 <olsner> I do like the word whichth
21:52:09 <tswett> I think storing Booleans is easy enough.
21:52:56 <tswett> Just store either "t" or "f" in a command. Then, to branch, store the true branch in "t" and the false branch in "f".
21:53:20 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/quotus
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21:59:12 <tswett> Then for numbers, I guess you could store any number of "o"s in a command, and then use it kinda like a Church numeral.
21:59:54 <oerjan> tswett: hm this might not be that different from how i made that emmental program
22:01:59 <oerjan> hm this _doesn't_ have a stack, does it?
22:04:18 <oerjan> it has that compilation semantics for storing things in commands instead, which somehow corresponds to the emmental command ! which uses the stack. and i think this is the only thing that _needs_ a stack.
22:05:04 <tswett> It's not obvious to me that Combientièm's interpretation–compilation dichotomy is actually useful.
22:06:34 <tswett> It allows you to construct definitions without using L. Maybe there's no real problem with using L, though.
22:12:17 <oerjan> wait, i also use the stack to store the emulated underload stack. this might be harder to translate into combientièm...
22:13:26 <oerjan> it might seem simpler to do a queue with all this appending, maybe.
22:13:36 <oerjan> tswett: perhaps BCT would be easy?
22:13:56 <tswett> I'm thinking a Minsky machine.
22:18:58 <oerjan> tswett: hm should L really be compilation mode? it seems redundant then.
22:19:21 <oerjan> it's needed to append things that don't append themselves, i gues
22:22:12 <oerjan> my underload interpreter in emmental sort of also had interpreter and compilation modes. and a printing mode.
22:22:47 <oerjan> called them running and quoting.
22:23:23 <tswett> Without the I–C dichotomy, the only commands you'd need are N and L.
22:24:12 <tswett> You could set 3 to "ooo" by doing "N3LoLoLo".
22:24:52 <tswett> To set c to a AND b, then you'd do, uh...
22:27:09 <oerjan> no dichotomy would make it closer to emmental
22:27:12 <tswett> Nt[Nt[Nc[t]] Nf[Nc[f]] b] Nf[Nc[f]] a
22:27:22 <tswett> Where [...] means ... with an L inserted before every character.
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22:28:11 <tswett> So the whole program is...
22:28:30 <oerjan> just like the quote function used for constructing emmental programs
22:28:54 <oerjan> (not a part of emmental proper, but you need it not to go crazy writing the programs)
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22:29:27 <tswett> NtLNLtLLLNLLLcLLLLLLLtLNLfLLLNLLLcLLLLLLLfLbNfLNLcLLLfa
22:30:09 <tswett> Yeah, I think I should use the I–C dichotomy.
22:30:26 <tswett> So now, to set c to a AND b, you do this:
22:31:32 <Arc_Koen> cause I've always imagined you as an american on a boat over the mississipi
22:31:53 <tswett> Nt( Nt( Nc( t )LLLD )LD Nf( Nc( f)LLLD )LD b)D Nf( Nc( f )LD )D a
22:31:56 <tswett> Where ( and ) don't mean anything.
22:32:24 <tswett> So the program without the junk is NtNtNctLLLDLDNfNcfLLLDLDbDNfNcfLDDa.
22:32:39 <tswett> So which side of the Mississippi is "over the Mississippi"?
22:33:11 <tswett> Whelp, I'm on this side of the Mississippi.
22:34:16 <olsner> if you make another of yourself, you can be on the other side of the mississippi too
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22:36:21 <oerjan> a boat to the other side
22:36:32 <oerjan> watch out for the guy with a cowl
22:44:35 <oerjan> <Taneb> dbelange, it can't, and I can't think of one
22:45:07 <oerjan> a positive number is a real number not on the form -x^2 for any real number x. hth.
22:45:29 <oerjan> (that was to the second question in the logs.)
22:55:26 <tswett> Alternatively, one that is of the form 1/x^2 for some real number x.
22:56:24 <Arc_Koen> you guys don't count zero as negative
22:59:12 <oerjan> which btw was essentially the _first_ question in the logs.
22:59:56 <oerjan> well the first on that theme. dbelange made a whole bunch of rather basic math questions.
23:00:20 <tswett> There's actually an entire United States of America in Australia.
23:00:21 <oerjan> since when is t... oh right.
23:00:57 <kmc> there are those islands in dubai that form a (crude) map of the world
23:01:05 <oerjan> i hear there's a USA in japan too
23:01:08 <kmc> I wonder what they put at the fixed point
23:02:02 <kmc> if it isn't recursive at all then it's truly a waste of money
23:02:13 <oerjan> i'm imagining a map from centuries in the future, where the continent is named "Stray"
23:02:35 <oerjan> and there's a continent named Murrica
23:02:55 <Arc_Koen> Fiora can you please explain oerjan's joke to me
23:03:11 <kmc> i think future changes in language will be shaped more by written / typed forms than by verbal forms
23:03:21 <kmc> words that are hard to type on QWERTY will slowly disappear
23:03:28 <tswett> I wonder what the largest world map in the world is.
23:03:31 <kmc> meanwhile I'll be speaking English with a Dvorak accent
23:03:36 <tswett> That archipelago, I guess.
23:03:41 <tswett> But it's not a very good world map.
23:03:44 <kmc> i think it's too shitty -- yeah
23:03:57 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: just radical pronunciation becoming the official forms
23:03:58 <kmc> http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/09/26 figure 1
23:04:07 <Jafet> Typing? In the future?
23:04:16 <tswett> Let's see. The circumference of the earth is about 40,000 meters. So...
23:04:17 <olsner> oh, dvorak is a czech name, but august dvorak was just american
23:04:18 <nooodl> imo the earth itself is a good 1:1 spheral world map
23:04:26 <oerjan> see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strine
23:04:33 <Bike> no way, it makes greenland way too big
23:04:39 <tswett> If you made a world map 200 meters wide, then it would contain a depiction of itself about 1 meter wide.
23:04:49 <kmc> that's why it's dvorak and not dvořák
23:05:25 <tswett> So I guess we have to do that.
23:05:36 <kmc> Tři sta třicet tři stříbrných stříkaček stříkalo přes tři sta třicet tři stříbrných střech
23:05:44 <oerjan> when i become world dictator i'll make using dvorak legal only for those who can pronounce it properly in czech. just because.
23:06:26 <Fiora> Arc_Koen: I don't get it either :<
23:06:42 <Fiora> um, the "stray" joke (?)
23:06:45 <kmc> apparently the czech ř is unique
23:07:04 <Arc_Koen> Fiora: just radical pronunciation becoming the official forms
23:07:15 <shachaf> how do you catch a unique odepoint
23:07:30 <Fiora> wait why do you want me to explain it then @_@
23:07:52 <nooodl> that's one hell of a world map!
23:07:57 <oerjan> <tswett> Let's see. The circumference of the earth is about 40,000 meters. So... <-- UM...
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23:08:06 <shachaf> oerjan: i know some people whose last name is dvorak can they use it
23:08:07 <Bike> i dunno 40k sounds realistic
23:08:09 <tswett> All right, the circumference of the earth is about 40,000,000 meters. So if you made a world map about 6000 meters wide, then it would contain a depiction of itself about 1 meter wide.
23:08:24 <Bike> let me just jog over to where you live
23:08:26 <kmc> August Dvorak was from Washington........................
23:08:38 <Arc_Koen> Fiora: because I was lying when I said I was smart! oerjan explained it to me when you didn't
23:08:38 <oerjan> shachaf: ok if they can prove a proper genealogy.
23:09:14 <tswett> Trivia: the length of a marathon is also about 40,000 meters.
23:09:15 <shachaf> does "descended from john c. dvorak" count
23:09:23 <tswett> So the circumference of the earth is about 1,000 marathons.
23:10:01 <Bike> "Dvorak and Dealey, along with Nellie Merrick and Gertrude Ford, wrote the book Typewriting Behavior, published in 1936. The book, currently not in print, is an in-depth report on the psychology and physiology of typing." how boring can you get
23:10:21 <kmc> washington, washington, eight feet tall weighs a fucking ton
23:10:24 <Arc_Koen> tswett: let's organize a giant relay marathon thing
23:10:44 <oerjan> shachaf: only if the name has been used in an unbroken line
23:10:45 <tswett> What is the dryest circumference of the earth?
23:11:00 <kmc> Bike: kickstarter to re-issue it and then mail a free copy to everyone who has evolved their own keyboard layout against a fitness function pulled out of their ass
23:11:25 <oerjan> Bike: i want to read that as Gertrude Stein.
23:11:33 <kmc> starting that kick
23:11:36 <kmc> hm it's on g. books
23:11:51 <Arc_Koen> tswett: what about running on a north-south cycle
23:12:10 <Arc_Koen> antarctica -> america -> greenland -> europe -> something
23:12:17 <Bike> my guess would be somewhere around the greenich meridian but that's uncreative
23:12:32 <Bike> oh hey someone on usenet already asked
23:13:29 <Bike> oh here we go http://jidanni.org/geo/antipodes/hemispheres.html
23:14:00 <olsner> you can at least chose a route that you're somewhat likely to survive (as opposed to anything involving antarctica and greenland)
23:14:39 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, as if anything involving an ocean is going to be survivable.
23:15:17 <tswett> "Our crude program finds two wettest circles, skirting Africa, with 8% land, and one driest circle, through Antarctica, with 55% land."
23:15:34 <tswett> This is definitely ~ going to work.
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23:18:16 <tswett> All right, so, the world map 6,000 meters wide.
23:18:32 <olsner> skip it and just do the picture of the map in the map
23:18:37 <tswett> That'd be on the order of... 40,000 square kilometers. Wow, what a surprise.
23:20:32 <tswett> Which is about 10,000 acres.
23:21:20 <tswett> Which you might be able to buy for about $5,000,000.
23:21:26 <tswett> Anyone have $5,000,000 they feel like blowing?
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23:38:16 * Sgeo hits everyone with a Spring
23:43:39 <Sgeo> Spring spring MVC with XML configure-time configuration
23:44:02 <Sgeo> I do think run-time configuration should be separate from normal run-time
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02:30:00 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow -+>--->(>[>>([(+)*5[-]]+>)*-1])*-1
02:30:03 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 38.8
02:30:09 <Lymia> The evolver, indeed works when you give it something that already works.
02:30:21 <Lymia> Unfortunately, it's not so good at making working things ex-nillo...
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02:46:05 <kmc> FUCK YES, Time Trumpet finished downloading
02:52:58 <Bike> wow is that an ubik reference in the topic
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03:00:18 <kmc> i read that book yesterday
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03:14:25 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >(+)*5(>[>>([(+)*5[-]]>)*-1])*-1
03:14:28 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 40.8
03:16:09 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >(-)*5>(>[>>([(+)*5[-]]>)*-1])*-1
03:16:12 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 41.5
03:16:24 <Lymia> Automating "optmizing for current hill" yay :p
03:23:16 <Fiora> wooow, that's a really good score
03:23:22 <Fiora> for something so simle, too
03:23:47 <Lymia> It's probs abuse of programs being deterministic.
03:24:37 <Lymia> There's an, uh. VERY FATAL flaw
03:24:45 <Lymia> That can't be rectified without sending the score into the gutter x.x
03:25:03 <Lymia> It assumes that the target has a decoy-- and that there's at least one space between its first decoy and its flag.
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03:53:42 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >(+)*5>(>[>>([(+)*5[-]]>)*-1])*-1
03:53:44 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 40.7
04:00:42 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >(-)*5>(>[>>([(+)*5[-]]->)*-1])*-1
04:00:45 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 42.0
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04:22:32 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >(-)*5>>(>[+>>([(+)*6[-]]->)*-1])*-1
04:22:35 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 42.2
04:30:01 <Lymia> Given a point P in a Bfjoust program
04:30:15 <Lymia> I wonder if it'd be possible to construct a valid string s that is the continuation of the rest of the program.
04:31:09 <Lymia> Meaning, like, [+P]+ => [+([+{}]+(.)*-1)%-1]+
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04:47:08 <Lymia> The idea is, in a language that compiles to BFJoust
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04:48:02 <Lymia> You could write something like (try-for(300, -, try-for(300, +, nil))>)*-1
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04:53:24 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >(-)*5>>>(>[..>>([(+)*6[-]]->)*-1])*-1
04:53:27 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 43.0
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05:23:30 <zzo38> Now I made a AWK program to convert selector strings from Internet Quiz Engine into SQL codes, so that you can make polls.
05:24:34 <kmc> AWK on Airships
05:25:20 <Bike> A web framework based on passing http requests through awk scripts.
05:27:46 <Sgeo> Still better than Spring MVC?
05:28:40 * Bike plays laugh track
05:30:05 <zzo38> Is it just the entire HTTP request it received, and then it needs to response the entire response including header and data? It seem AWK to not be very good for that kinds of things.
05:30:24 <zzo38> Even if it is CGI, it still won't be very good for that purpose, I think.
05:33:02 <zzo38> You can do it if you want to, though.
05:34:21 <kmc> isn't Spring supposed to be the /lightweight/ framework?
05:34:26 <kmc> you gotta use Enterprise JavaBeans man
05:34:47 <kmc> "Millions of developers use Spring to create high performing, easily testable, reusable code without any lock-in."
05:34:54 <kmc> that last bit seems kind of weird, I guess it's a dig at C#?
05:35:12 <Bike> does it not lock you into Spring
05:35:42 <shachaf> you've discovered their evil plot
05:36:34 <kmc> Bike: i think being locked into an open source project doesn't count
05:36:55 <kmc> because that's how the people making these decisions think
05:36:56 <Lymia> kmc, "Java culture", and "light" are mutually incompatible.
05:37:14 <zzo38> kmc: Well, at least you are locked in less than if it were not an open source project, but that doesn't make it not locked in
05:37:26 <zzo38> What is it called when the web framework is based on SQL instead of AWK or PHP or any other programming language?
05:37:43 <Bike> i just can't quit you, monoids.
05:37:43 <shachaf> the first one's always free
05:37:44 <Sgeo> kmc, the way Spring is structured, to the best of my understanding, is that the objects you create often don't have any explicit reliance on Spring
05:37:55 <Sgeo> You use Spring, but the objects you make for it don't necessarily know about it
05:38:13 <kmc> it's funny because in startuplandia we don't think about vendor lock-in at all, it's open source and we think about open source project lock-in
05:38:17 <zzo38> shachaf: That is easy to see.
05:38:47 <kmc> tho, Microsoft New England Research & Development (MS NERD) was running a thing where they would give your web startup free licenses for IIS and MS SQL and whatever for n years
05:38:53 <shachaf> 'First the joke must be caught.' / That is easy: a baby, I think, could have / caught it.
05:38:55 <kmc> first hit's free kids
05:40:01 <shachaf> Did you know the most important feature of Haskell is list comprehensions?
05:40:12 <zzo38> kmc: I still don't need them though; I have better software than those ones. Shouldn't those people learn all of them to see what is better for them, at first, before buying, or even getting for *free*, the software?
05:41:11 <kmc> shachaf..........
05:41:18 <kmc> somebody says?
05:41:22 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't think so.
05:41:33 <shachaf> kmc: i accidentally read the internet
05:41:38 <shachaf> bad mistake, will not repeat
05:41:42 <zzo38> This IRC is the internet.
05:41:46 <kmc> zzo38: that takes too long and in startuplandia it is more important to move quickly than to make the absolute best technical decision at every step
05:42:11 <zzo38> kmc: Perhaps to *you* it is.
05:42:25 <kmc> to people who want to make lots of money and build successful companies
05:42:43 <shachaf> kmc's secret ambition revealed
05:42:46 <kmc> anyway though I think it's a hard sell for MSFT because there's a lot of advantage to using what everyone else is using
05:42:57 <kmc> though also some advantage to using what nobody else is using
05:43:01 <Bike> i bet you could make a cool argument about the "best" step at any given time not being the "best" step in some overall sense, with some kind of time-bound optimization problem solving formalism
05:43:01 <kmc> shit is complicated, as they say
05:43:18 <shachaf> Lots of people are using Microsoft things.
05:43:18 <zzo38> Bike: Maybe it sometimes is.
05:43:27 <shachaf> Even lots of startups, I imagine.
05:43:27 <kmc> shachaf: but not so much in web startupland I think.
05:43:35 <kmc> well, I don't know...
05:43:49 <shachaf> I tend to think more people use Microsoft things than I typically see.
05:43:57 <shachaf> I'm in too much of a bubble. :-(
05:44:04 <kmc> it's true that none of my friends use Windows and approximately everyone uses Windows
05:44:13 <kmc> but web startup land is also a bubble shachaf
05:44:45 <Lymia> I have to wonder how good Microsoft's SQL server/web server stuff, etc, actually is.
05:44:53 <Lymia> ... and if it's better enough to justify the cost >_>
05:44:54 <shachaf> It's not particularly obvious from using a website what it runs on, anyway.
05:45:05 <Lymia> shachaf, should be obvious by looking at the headers, right?
05:45:26 <shachaf> Lymia: I don't look at the headers of every website I use.
05:45:29 <zzo38> Unless they omitted that header
05:46:05 <shachaf> What are some web startupland places that use Microsoft things?
05:46:26 <shachaf> stackoverflow.com is one, I suppose. They don't have such a header.
05:47:18 <Lymia> I suspect you can sniff it with the approprate tools
05:47:32 <Lymia> nmap -V -p80 stackoverflow.com
05:47:50 <Lymia> -V might not be the right flag
05:48:18 <shachaf> Anyway I think it's a good default assumption that I'm in more of a bubble than I think I am.
05:48:47 <zzo38> Still, I want to make a good quality, rather than just earning money or whatever.
05:49:07 <Bike> they're not even exclusive
05:49:58 <zzo38> What is not even exclusive?
05:51:03 <kmc> shachaf: you know you're more bubbled than you think you are
05:51:30 <Bike> bubbled bubbles, unbubbled bubbles, bubbled unbubbles, and unbubbled unbubbles
05:52:04 <zzo38> OK, well, I don't know what that is, but, OK, anyways, perhaps that is what it is.
05:53:49 <Bike> it was that or a sex joke.
05:54:30 <kmc> insert topical reference to donglegate
05:54:48 <zzo38> I may use some proprietary and surface-mount and so on if it has to and in case it might be change later on if it can be used without vendor-lock, like this.
05:54:53 <kmc> http://www.piehead.com/blog/2011/05/why-startups-could-use-net-but-don%E2%80%99t this is a p. shit article
05:55:51 <zzo38> However, other than that, I would try to make it better, rather than being forced to use inferior stuff if there is the alternative.
05:55:56 <kmc> any article that expects me to already acknowledge a consistent distinction between "developer culture" and "engineering culture"
05:55:59 <kmc> is p. shit
05:56:56 <shachaf> kmc knows the truth: if your startup doesn't have a rockstar culture, it's already doomed to fail
05:57:15 <kmc> sometimes I wonder if ninja rockstars is one of those things everyone makse fun of now and nobody actually says seriously
05:57:25 <kmc> but then I look through craigslist job ads
05:58:02 <shachaf> perhaps those ads are being cool and saying it ironically
05:58:27 <kmc> well there's this: "Here's what we're looking for: Your peers describe you as a rockstar, but the term embarrasses you. Homejoy has a culture that revolves entirely around our customers and cleaners, not our egos."
05:58:58 <kmc> 'get better peers'
05:59:27 <shachaf> you're at a fork and you see two people, a rockstar and a ninja. you can ask one of them one question.
06:00:49 <Sgeo> If the train conductors never collect my ticket, is it ok to reuse the ticket?
06:01:00 <zzo38> I think CF card is better than SD card, so I will use CF card. Blu-ray is full of stupid stuff (I mean, even other than the video format!), so I won't use that.
06:01:08 <zzo38> Sgeo: What is printed on the ticket?
06:01:09 <kmc> Sgeo: doesn't it have a date on it?
06:01:13 <Bike> It's "ok" in that you'll probably not get caught, it's not OK in that it's illegitimate
06:01:22 <Sgeo> kmc, yes, but it expires in 60 days
06:01:32 <kmc> i'm not categorically against stealing from The Man but I feel like public transit has a bad enough time as it is
06:01:41 <kmc> that's why i don't lifehack my SFO trips with the BART lost ticket hack
06:01:45 <kmc> Sgeo: what railway?
06:02:23 <Bike> Sgeo: well, are the tickets intended to be used one time only?
06:02:32 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >(-)*5>>>(>[..>>([(+)*6[-]]->)*-1])*-1
06:02:35 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 43.8
06:02:36 <Sgeo> Bike, I think so yes
06:02:38 <Lymia> Evolver's no longer making progress.
06:02:49 <Bike> Sgeo: there's your answer then
06:02:54 <kmc> I am LIRR of the planet Omicron Persei 8
06:03:21 <kmc> shachaf: it costs more to swipe out at SFO than to claim you lost your ticket and pay the fine
06:03:46 <zzo38> No! Precisely, what is everything that is printed on the ticket? Does it say, one fare? Does it say, the date/time? Does it say you can give it to someone else?
06:04:04 <Sgeo> It has the date and time that I purchased it
06:04:20 <Sgeo> But it's usable for 60 days after purchase
06:04:44 <shachaf> is dates + thyme a good combination
06:04:56 <shachaf> i can't remember what thyme tastes like.......
06:04:59 <pikhq_> zzo38: How's about MMC?
06:05:09 <pikhq_> (yaaay, obscure formats. :P)
06:05:15 <kmc> model model controller
06:05:40 <shachaf> just do model-model-model like http://sqlonrails.org/
06:05:43 <zzo38> If it just says "one fare" then probably it is not allowed to reuse it, but, if you have to, then do
06:05:47 <kmc> shachaf: tyne and wear
06:05:57 * pikhq_ is honestly confused why that format got replaced by SD cards
06:06:02 <zzo38> pikhq_: Is MMC compatible with SD in some case?
06:06:09 <kmc> SD supports some kind of DRM and so the Powers that Be were pushing it
06:06:21 <pikhq_> zzo38: An MMC card can be read in an SD reader, but not vice versa.
06:06:33 <pikhq_> There is no *real* benefit to SD over MMC.
06:06:41 <kmc> people do write whole web apps in the database
06:06:45 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, although that feature is never used, so it wastes capacity, I think.
06:06:45 <shachaf> Why is the NYC subway so much cheaper than BART?
06:06:52 <kmc> Postgres supports JavaScript stored procedures
06:07:07 <zzo38> kmc: That is not what I mean; I mean pure SQL
06:07:10 <kmc> https://code.google.com/p/plv8js/wiki/PLV8
06:07:39 <zzo38> pikhq_: Well, I supppose so, but still I prefer CF. If you want to use MMC and SD, you still can, since adapters exist for such purposes.
06:07:51 <pikhq_> Amusingly, SD actually had a *lower* max card size than MMC.
06:09:17 <zzo38> pikhq_: SD does at least have one thing, which is a write protect switch, but the smaller SD cards lack that feature. It might be possible to make CF cards with such a switch, too, though.
06:09:28 <pikhq_> It's also a fairly silly feature.
06:09:55 <zzo38> And I have read about the max capacity too; I think CF has more max capacity
06:09:56 <pikhq_> But yeah, not surprised you prefer CF cards. Of the commonly supported flash formats it's the one most zzo38-friendly.
06:13:51 <kmc> so did xkcd do anything interesting today
06:13:52 <kmc> looks like no
06:14:47 <shachaf> Tomorrow I fly back to SFO.
06:15:12 <kmc> will you ride the BART train
06:15:44 <kmc> p. good train
06:16:00 <shachaf> imo it should be synchroniszed with the caltrain
06:16:10 <shachaf> missing the caltrain is p. annoying
06:16:17 <shachaf> also the caltrain should come more often
06:16:30 <kmc> caltrain is a p. shite train
06:17:07 <shachaf> when you're trying to get to palo alto caltrain has a distinct advantage over BART
06:17:10 <kmc> inter-agency timed transfers........ not in god's america
06:17:14 <shachaf> namely that it goes to palo alto
06:17:35 <kmc> when you're riding BART, not trying to get to palo alto has a distinct advantage
06:18:37 <shachaf> sadly i live in ₑₐₛₜ palo alto
06:19:08 <kmc> how many copies of the latin alphabet are there in Unicode
06:19:32 <kmc> where's the big .txt list of all unicode chars
06:19:35 <shachaf> Consolidated for cut-and-pasting purposes, the Unicode standard defines complete sub- and super-scripts for numbers and common mathematical symbols ( ... )
06:19:43 <shachaf> a full superscript Latin lowercase alphabet except q ( ... )
06:19:51 <shachaf> a limited uppercase Latin alphabet ( ᴬ ᴮ ᴰ ᴱ ᴳ ᴴ ᴵ ᴶ ᴷ ᴸ ᴹ ᴺ ᴼ ᴾ ᴿ ᵀ ᵁ ⱽ ᵂ ), a few subscripted lowercase letters ( ₐ ₑ ₕ ᵢ ⱼ ₖ ₗ ₘ ₙ ₒ ₚ ᵣ ₛ ₜ ᵤ ᵥ ₓ ), and some Greek letters ( ᵅ ᵝ ᵞ ᵟ ᵋ ᶿ ᶥ ᶲ ᵠ ᵡ ᵦ ᵧ ᵨ ᵩ ᵪ ).
06:19:55 <kmc> except q...
06:20:08 <zzo38> Why do they have strange sets like that?
06:20:14 <shachaf> http://www.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/NamesList.txt is a partial list
06:20:19 <kmc> what the fuck
06:20:45 <shachaf> kmc: Did you think it would be complete?
06:21:19 <zzo38> Unicode is really crazy anyways, in many ways......
06:22:57 <Bike> why isn't C in the uppercase
06:23:08 <kmc> jesus christ
06:23:08 <Bike> C is a pretty good letter!
06:23:22 <kmc> uh Bike it's spelled "p. good"
06:23:43 <kmc> god i'm so tired and hungry and sleepy
06:23:54 <Bike> "i just can't TAKE a lack of c's right now"
06:23:57 <kmc> and hungry
06:24:01 <shachaf> imo sleep and eat and sleep and eat
06:24:13 <shachaf> Are you in SF? Or was that last week/next week/something else?
06:24:17 <Bike> hm unicode should have a character that's an apostrophe but instead of marking possession it marks multiplicity of a letter
06:24:26 <Bike> it looks exactly the same though.
06:24:27 <kmc> that was in the week of turning on of the bay bridge lights
06:24:34 <kmc> cannot remember which week is before the other one
06:24:59 <zzo38> Unicode is just really dumb, mostly.
06:25:32 <kmc> http://www.buzzfeed.com/awesomer/things-youll-see-on-public-transportation
06:25:37 <Bike> also i have glyphs for some of the lowercase letters but not all of them
06:27:01 <kmc> whenever I see this kind of thing I always try to identify what system each photo is from
06:28:35 <kmc> nyc mta: 1, 8, 9, 18, 19, 25, 26
06:29:51 <kmc> lacmta: 4; london (?) 11; BART: 20
06:30:12 <Bike> are you.......... a trainspotter
06:30:25 <kmc> insert quote from movie that i haven't actually seen
06:30:28 <zzo38> Once I had a dream that the first computer game ever invented was called "One Draw" and it was implementing a card game. One of the features of this game is that the suit of clubs has three dots (whenever a club was played, the referee would exclaim, "It has three dots!"). However there is many errors in the game, for example half of one card might be a different card, or something like that
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06:30:52 <Bike> but you know the soundtrack, and it's a good soundtrack.
06:30:53 <shachaf> 1D6B LATIN SMALL LETTER UE [ᵫ]
06:30:58 <shachaf> I didn't know about that one.
06:31:15 <kmc> sigh isn't ü a good enough ue
06:31:34 <Bike> ᴾᴱᴺᴵ- there's no S!!
06:31:57 <kmc> fuck i ought to sleep right now
06:32:01 <kmc> good night #esoteric
06:32:06 <kmc> keep flying that freak flag
06:48:08 <zzo38> How can someone meet you in a location they cannot find?
06:52:10 <zzo38> "This is not a fight. The reason the lights are red is because my other eye is looking at another subway train." ...what?
06:54:09 <zzo38> What is your dream today?
06:54:31 <Bike> I don't remember. I found it unsettling, though.
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07:27:02 <zzo38> I made a Magic: the Gathering cards that is "Exile all indestructible permanents"
07:29:46 <shachaf> How do you make a cards? Do you mean that you made a card?
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07:30:22 <zzo38> Another card is "Creatures with abilities having {Q} in their cost have vigilance"
07:30:28 <zzo38> ({Q} is the untap symbol)
07:31:10 <zzo38> Another one means "You are allowed to attack yourself and/or planeswalkers you control"
07:32:43 <Sgeo> I don't want to have to wake up at 5am
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07:52:18 <zzo38> I have a list of "You know you've been in Japan too long when..." and I have never been in Japan but I do a few of the things on that list (even before I found this list), such as underlining words with a ruler.
07:52:27 <zzo38> Do you underline words with a ruler?
07:53:08 <shachaf> I have never been in Japan.
07:53:41 <zzo38> Nor have I. I don't think it is necessary to be in Japan to underline words with a ruler; it is necessary to have a ruler, though.
07:54:52 <Deewiant> It is also necessary to underline words.
07:58:36 <zzo38> Do 1000000 push-ups each day, 1000001 in the morning and -1 at night.
08:04:14 <zzo38> It is difficult to repair a watch while falling from an airplane.
08:04:38 <zzo38> But that is what you have to do to win at this TV game show
08:06:10 <zzo38> It isn't a game show; it is actually your *job*.
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08:07:51 <fizzie> Did you underline that with a ruler?
08:09:16 <fizzie> But you don't have to!
08:10:24 <Lymia> fizzie, I'm curious
08:10:36 <Lymia> (((({+})%0)%0)%0)%0
08:10:40 <Lymia> Do anything to gearlance?
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08:16:42 <zzo38> Someone once made up the text for Magic: the Gathering card, "Goblins cannot reach Nirvana".
08:16:55 <zzo38> (It is an enchantment card named "Nirvana", with no other effect)
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08:22:27 <fizzie> Lymia: %'s and *'s are equivalent as far as it's concerned, so that should just be (((({+})%0)*0)*0)*0 and the outermost loop would be deleted. (Technically, it might turn into (((()*0+()*0)*0)*0)*0 as an intermediate step.)
08:23:33 <fizzie> Lymia: Come to think of it, I'm not entirely certain the "remove contentless loops" will do the right thing when nested {}s are involved. Fortunately those aren't used much. They bind kind of strangely.
08:23:36 <ais523> zzo38: wouldn't that be correctly templated as "If Nirvana is a creature with flying, Goblins cannot block it unless they have flying"?
08:23:45 <ais523> or perhaps "Goblins with reach cannot block it"
08:23:50 <ais523> I don't think many goblins have reach anyway, though
08:24:33 <zzo38> ais523: I don't know if whoever made that had a meaning, but I made up the meaning of it, that if Nirvana is a creature with flying then Goblins with reach cannot block it unless they also have flying
08:24:43 <fizzie> Lymia: (Doing (a(b{c{d}e}f)%2g)%3 is legal and equivalent to abbcabbcabbcdeffgeffgeffg.)
08:24:57 <ais523> zzo38: yeah, that's the only sensible meaning within the rules
08:25:01 <ais523> but it's templated really badly
08:25:10 <zzo38> ais523: Yes I know
08:25:25 <ais523> that said, it needs at least two extra cards in order to make an enchantment into a creature with flying
08:25:42 <ais523> and probably requires one extra card (as well as the goblin) to make a goblin with reach
08:25:48 <ais523> so the situation is unlikely to happen often
08:25:56 <zzo38> I know this situation is very unlikely.
08:28:14 <fizzie> I *think* (a({c{d}e})%2g)%3 currently would turn into (a()*0c{d}e()*0g)%3 which would do the right thing. And... (({{d}e}f)%2g)%3 into (()*0)*0d(e(f)*2g)*3, which also seems like it'd work out.
08:28:48 <fizzie> ais523: You probably know better, are nested {}s used in real-word business bfjoust code?
08:28:51 <zzo38> Which card texts could be compiled by computer into a computer program with the same meaning?
08:29:08 <ais523> fizzie: they aren't, but I think we agreed that if they have a meaning, the inside % matches the outside {}
08:29:32 <fizzie> Yes, that's what gearlance does (should do). I was just wondering.
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09:01:31 <Sgeo> Waking up hellishly early just so I have 3 hours to get ready. Good idea or bad idea?
09:02:13 <ais523> Sgeo: for what? and is it likely that you'd spend 3 hours getting ready?
09:02:32 <ais523> normally for important things, I time how long it would take to get ready, through experience, then add half an hour
09:02:50 <Sgeo> Ready for work. And it's likely that if I had only 2 hours to get ready, then I'd end up panicking and rushing
09:03:00 <ais523> first day at a new job?
09:03:49 <ais523> starting early makes sense until you know how long it takes to get ready
09:04:31 <Sgeo> I had so little sleep for yesterday that I ended up zoning out while reading about Spring
09:04:47 <Sgeo> I did not get enough sleep tonight, so I'm worried it will be worse
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09:06:48 * itsy used to get up at 4:30am to start work at 6:30am (when I had a 15 minute journey)
09:07:45 <ais523> when going to work, I consistently leave 80 minutes if going in by bus, or 50 for going in by train
09:08:01 <Sgeo> ais523, have you ever had to deal with Spring?
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09:17:40 <Sgeo> 1 hour of the 3 hours is reserved as failing to actually accomplish anything for the first hour after waking up
09:17:49 <Sgeo> (Except eating. I do manage to eat sometimes)
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09:22:15 <Lymia> fizzie, I was thinking about something related to that.
09:22:29 <Sgeo> If the consulting company gives me a laptop and a case, is the case likely to be waterproof?
09:22:35 <Lymia> I was wondering if it'd be possible to construct a continuation, effectively, from a point in a BFJoust program-- nested {}s will almost certainly be involved.
09:22:43 <Sgeo> If not, then the laptop they gave me is probably ruined :(
09:22:49 <Lymia> The purpose would be for generating some constructions in a higher level language compiling to BFJoust
09:24:47 <Lymia> Something like, (try-for(300, +, nil)>)*-1 -> ((([+{{}}])%300)*-1)%300
09:25:01 <Lymia> Something like, (try-for(300, +, nil)>)*-1 -> ((([+{{}}])%300)*-1)%-1
09:25:31 <ais523> Lymia: I don't think it's possible in general
09:25:36 <fizzie> If you intend for the %s to bind to the {}s, that does not look like something you could write, also.
09:25:49 <ais523> well, except via the very wasteful method of duplicating the entire program for each control flow operator
09:26:09 <olsner> Sgeo: it's possible for a case to be waterproof, but did they have any reason to believe you would try to use water on it?
09:26:09 <fizzie> ((([+{{}}])%300)*-1)%-1 has the {}s bound to the inner two sets of parentheses.
09:26:15 <olsner> if not, they wouldn't have a reason to make sure you get a waterproof laptop
09:26:30 <Lymia> That's the problem.
09:26:45 <Sgeo> olsner, I don't know. Maybe they don't believe in rain or something
09:26:56 <fizzie> You can't do (a(b{c}d)*N e)%M with {}s bound to the outer parens, in general; what would that expand to?
09:27:04 <olsner> maybe they believe in you using a bag of some sort to carry the laptop
09:27:07 <ais523> Sgeo: was it just rained on? Or was it dropped in a puddle or something?
09:27:17 <Sgeo> Heavily rained on
09:27:21 <ais523> also, most electronic components work fine after they dry out, even if they get wet
09:27:27 <ais523> removing the battery will help in the case of a laptop
09:27:28 <Sgeo> olsner, the case counts as a bag I assume?
09:27:36 <ais523> in general, if it hasn't exploded already, that's a good sign
09:27:50 <ais523> most laptop cases aren't perfectly waterproof, but will substantially reduce the amount of water reaching the laptop
09:27:56 <olsner> I'm not sure what "case" means here, so I can't tell ... did the laptop get wet?
09:28:04 <Sgeo> I don't know if the laptop got wet
09:29:21 <Lymia> ais523, I'm certain that you can calculate a series of instructions that will do the job
09:29:33 <Lymia> The problem is if it can always be encoded without huge amounts of reptition
09:29:47 <ais523> Lymia: it can't be, I'm basically 100% sure, if you need it cycle-accurate (and you usually do)
09:29:53 <ais523> Sgeo: why don't you examine the laptop to see whether it's wet?
09:30:05 <ais523> I know when I took my laptop home from work in very heavy rain
09:30:12 <ais523> the laptop itself stayed dry, but the charger got wet
09:30:18 <ais523> so I had to wait for it to dry out
09:30:19 <Sgeo> Taking the laptop out of the case is difficult
09:30:27 <Lymia> ais523, what construction would prevent that?
09:30:40 <Sgeo> I could look at it when I get to work, I gues
09:31:07 <ais523> Lymia: I don't think there is a general method for doing what you're planning to do
09:31:32 <Lymia> I'm not sure either-- without a gigabyte program
09:31:59 <ais523> imagine something as simple as "do >+, then wait for the current cell to become zero, then wait that many cycles again, then do something else"
09:32:13 <ais523> the only implementation I know of that involves making a huge number of copies of the "do something else"
09:32:55 <Lymia> And you need 100000 copies in the worst case.
09:34:22 <ais523> past then, you can use a fixed 50000-cycle wait
09:34:32 <ais523> because it's going to take you off the end of the cycle limit regardless
09:34:46 <ais523> actually, EgoBot currently can't handle a nesting depth greater than 256
09:34:49 <ais523> so you'd have to stop at 256 cycles
09:35:08 <ais523> or do what I did in anticipation (the first one), and look for all the cases that were actually used on the hill
09:35:16 <ais523> and remove the others to save on nesting
09:35:27 <ais523> with the result that anticipation often won't do anything against newer programs
09:35:34 <Lymia> Without features to transform code, there's still a macro language at its core
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09:35:50 <Lymia> I'd need to see if it'd actually be useful though :p
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09:39:52 <Lymia> ais523, I had an idea that I have no idea where to begin with implementing
09:40:24 <ais523> asking for help may sometimes help, but not always
09:40:42 <fizzie> ais523: I've bumped up the nesting limit number (it's just the size of three int arrays during parsing, after all) to 4096, incidentally, while fixing that denial-of-service issue, though I don't think Gregor has necessarily updated.
09:40:48 <Lymia> Given a hill, make a program that will distinguish the exact target program, tape length, and polarity.
09:41:05 <ais523> Lymia: that's come up before, normally in the context of "and beat it"
09:41:15 <ais523> people have put thought into it, but nobody's solved it yet
09:41:16 <fizzie> (There's still a limit that's different than "maximum amount of memory", however.)
09:41:32 <Lymia> "And beat it" isn't really hard
09:42:00 <Lymia> Since once you know exactly the game state, you can just go ahead and find a fixed sequence of commands
09:42:01 <ais523> Lymia: it could be if it's already on your flag by the time you figure out what it is and you can't get back to defend in time
09:42:53 <Lymia> I'm pretty sure you have to be able to do it in 128 cycles, period.
09:43:02 <Lymia> Or, at least, figure out the fast rushes in that time.
09:43:11 <Lymia> And distinguishing the multitude of defense programs would be near impossible.
09:43:20 <Lymia> (The ones that never leave their cell that is)
09:43:57 <Lymia> I guess you could start with
09:44:06 <Lymia> "Given a program, figure out the exact polarity and tape length"
09:44:11 <Lymia> Which should be more possible.
09:44:39 <ais523> I'm not sure it's that much more possible
09:44:59 <ais523> also you have a bit more than 128 against even the fastest turtles
09:45:15 <ais523> !bfjoust fastest_turtle (>)*8(>(+)*128.)*21
09:45:23 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_fastest_turtle: 4.6
09:45:50 <ais523> !bfjoust almost_as_fast_turtle (>)*8(>[(+)*128.>])*21
09:45:53 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_almost_as_fast_turtle: 17.4
09:46:09 <Lymia> 2 is faster for most cases though :p
09:47:10 <Lymia> Figuring out the polarity+length could probs be easily done by simply planting decoys, and checking timings
09:47:30 <ais523> actually, distinguishing one vibrator from another seems to be very difficult indeed
09:47:48 <ais523> or imagine a hypothetical unsynchronized lock + full-tape clear
09:48:02 <ais523> which only changes its own cell, and the cell 9 away, moving onto 10 away when that's been cycled, and so on
09:48:14 <ais523> say the tape is length 10; how do you determine the polarity?
09:48:32 <Lymia> ais523, it might be marginally possible if you relax the constraints a little.
09:48:35 <ais523> AFAICT it can only be via clearing the enemy flag, or monitoring your own flag to see when it's cleared
09:48:37 <Lymia> To "as many cases as possible"
09:49:16 <Lymia> I suspect that, given a certain set of programs, you can, given a certain initial sequence of commands, figure out which cycles during which you are /in danger/ of your flag being cleared.
09:49:42 <ais523> yeah, that seems like a more fruitful route of investigation
09:50:30 <Lymia> I'm not fully clear on the rules here
09:50:42 <Lymia> On your home cell-- when [ is the exact same tick as the -
09:50:46 <Lymia> That brings your cell down to 0
09:52:53 * Lymia just goes to the JS intreperter
09:53:25 <ais523> Lymia: the [ gets the value at the start of the cycle
09:53:28 <ais523> so no, that trick doesn't work
09:53:32 <ais523> it'd probably be overpowered if it did
09:54:52 <Lymia> I think a stepping stone would be
09:54:57 <Lymia> Creating a "perfect vibrator"
09:55:04 <Lymia> That never /loses/ a single joust
09:56:45 <Lymia> This program would likely be filled with NOPs...
10:00:20 <Lymia> I'll have to try sometime
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10:41:32 <ais523> Lymia: yeah, I was thinking along those lines too
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10:42:02 <Lymia> ais523, there'd be a lot of infrastructure.
10:42:21 <Lymia> I'd need a BF joust simulator where one side of the joust doesn't actually have a set program.
10:42:32 <Lymia> Furthermore, it'd have to operate on immutable data structures
10:42:54 <Lymia> (to allow looking ahead, then going back)
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10:51:56 <Lymia> ais523, if you have enough nops
10:52:16 <ais523> yeah, I don't have a simulator that works like that
10:52:18 <Lymia> You might be able to try and simply chip away at the flag each cycle you have time.
10:52:31 <ais523> Lymia: that's how defence programs normally win
10:53:38 <Lymia> The remaining issue is
10:53:43 <Lymia> A final case for dealing with other defense programs
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10:54:10 <Lymia> Needs a lot of figuring out, I guess
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10:57:04 <Sgeo> Are khaki pants and a blue and white striped button down shirt considered business casual?
10:57:27 <olsner> your work has a dress code? O.O
10:57:50 <Lymia> Sgeo, wear a dress! :D
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10:58:12 <Sgeo> olsner, erm, pretty sure every place has a dress code of some sort. Except nudist resorts
10:58:17 <fizzie> Does egojsout have any keyboard shortcuts for moving the "expanded" cycle window forward and backward?
10:58:45 <Lymia> fizzie, how do you implement ({})?
10:58:59 <Lymia> I might need to write my own interperter for something
10:59:16 <Lymia> (since I'll basically need to go cycle by cycle, analysing stuff as I go)
11:01:49 <fizzie> That is, both a ({ pair and a }) pair are implemented much like a simple () loop is, with the sole exception that a }) pair counts from down to up, so that things work out right if a [ inside the ({ pair jumps into the matching ] inside a }) pair.
11:01:53 <fizzie> It's reasonably simple; about the only real "trick" is that one of them counts backwards.
11:02:00 <fizzie> (I said those two things in the wrong order.)
11:02:07 <fizzie> (Please read them backwards too.)
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11:03:16 <fizzie> (In fact, ( in a () and the ( in a ({}) have the same "opcode".)
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11:06:07 <Lymia> Due to language of choice.
11:06:14 <Lymia> It'd be best to find an representation that works as an ADT
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11:09:06 <fizzie> Lymia: You are going to have much fun with ([{...}])%N, if you want your types to have both a "Loop [Code]" kind of a thing and a "ComplexRep [Code] [Code] [Code] Int" kind of thing at the same time.
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11:09:49 <Lymia> That's the bad part :p
11:09:57 <Lymia> Unless I wanna call/cc or something.
11:10:29 <Taneb> I think next week I may go start the GRAND #ESOTERIC LOG CLASSIFICATION PROJECT
11:12:18 <Taneb> This is probably a well researched topic in computer science
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11:15:10 <Taneb> Or I could do it manually, which would take ages
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11:18:47 <fizzie> What does the PROJECT classify the logs into?
11:19:16 <Taneb> Categories in the not computer science sense
11:19:21 <fizzie> I thought it knew about that.
11:19:29 <HackEgo> Categories are just a special case of bicategories.
11:19:37 <fizzie> Ah, it's not a plural.
11:19:49 <Taneb> Could you do a linky thing?
11:20:04 <fizzie> Topic modelling of text is certainly a well researched topic.
11:21:45 <Taneb> Soon... it shall be TIME TO LEARN!
11:22:57 <Taneb> As you can tell, I'm feeling rather OTT at the moment
11:24:36 <Taneb> Unfortunately, I suspect I may be venturing into the unexplored
11:25:04 <Taneb> I also suspect I am hungry and have no access to food
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11:42:10 <Sgeo> Will I even be able to keep my eyes open at work?
11:42:13 <Sgeo> Will coffee help?
11:42:23 <Sgeo> Why does my chest hurt and why have I been coughing so much?
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14:36:22 <boily> @tell tswett how's your combientièm(e) lang going on?
14:36:41 <boily> GOMADWarrior: what kind of lang is it going to be?
14:41:27 <kmc> so far this describes python
14:42:27 <kmc> modify functions?
14:44:14 <GOMADWarrior> it'll be how we specify functions, first create empty, then add
14:45:09 <kmc> def g(*a, **kw): f(*a, **kw); other thing \n f = g
14:45:32 <kmc> anyway it's not the same as what you're planning, I agree
14:46:05 <kmc> btw whitespcae syntax is a good idea but treating it as anything other than sugar for punctuation is a terrible idea
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16:31:28 <c00kiemon5ter> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2ITaI4y7_0 that was interesting
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16:35:05 <kmc> `welcome Laurita
16:35:07 <HackEgo> Laurita: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:40:06 <HackEgo> ? \ @ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ addquote \ allquotes \ anonlog \ aseen \ botsnack \ bseen \ calc \ CaT \ define \ delquote \ emmental \ emoclew \ emptylist \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ fueue \ gaseen \ google \ h \ ?h \ h! \ hatesgeo \ hello \ ?hh \ hyfinate \ hyphenate.fi \ instalist \ interp \ joustreport \ jousturl \ js \ json \ k
16:40:19 <kmc> `run ls bin/ | paste
16:40:25 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31664
16:41:04 <kmc> `paste bin/welcome
16:41:06 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/welcome
16:41:24 <kmc> `paste wisdom/welcome
16:41:26 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/wisdom/welcome
16:41:38 <elliott> kmc: you can use `url when the target is a filename btw
16:41:42 <elliott> maybe `paste should optimise that
16:41:51 <kmc> i want to add welcome.es
16:42:04 <elliott> just echo something to wisdom/welcome.es
16:42:13 <elliott> i guess you want to make a bin/welcome copy too
16:42:25 <kmc> it should be generalized!
16:42:28 <kmc> but i don't wanna do it
16:42:45 <elliott> do we really need to make it even easier to make stupid programs on hackego :p
16:43:23 <Taneb> Laurita, Hablas finlands?
16:43:57 <boily> Laurita: ¿habla usted francés?
16:44:03 <ThatOtherPerson> `echo "Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseo esotrico lenguaje de programacin y despliegue! Para obtener ms informacin, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba # esotrico en irc.dal.net.)" > wisdom/welcome.es
16:44:04 <HackEgo> "Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseo esotrico lenguaje de programacin y despliegue! Para obtener ms informacin, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba # esotrico en irc.dal.net.)" > wisdom/welcome.es
16:44:17 <kmc> i think that translation is slightly fucked
16:44:42 <kmc> should be "diseño y despliegue de lenguaje de programación esotérico" or so
16:44:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bienvenue: not found
16:45:21 <kmc> working on it
16:46:09 <Laurita> hablo espool no se hablar otro idioma
16:46:10 <kmc> Laurita: ¿finés?
16:46:45 <boily> Laurita: tomé clases de español desde hace mucho tiempo, pero lo he olvidado casi todo.
16:46:59 <elliott> boily: you know *two* fake languages?
16:47:20 <boily> elliott: that one was shamelessly, partially, bluntly google translated.
16:47:24 <kmc> tenemos muchos personas quien hablan finés
16:47:34 <kmc> no se por que
16:47:54 * kmc habla solamente un poquito de español
16:48:00 <elliott> boily: c'est comme ça que vous parlez français aussi?
16:48:15 <boily> elliott: non, c'est ma langue maternelle.
16:48:44 <boily> elliott: on a eu 2 ans d'espagnol à l'école, mais ça fait longtemps et mettons que j'ai pas eu vraiment d'occasions de le pratique après.
16:48:48 * kmc también ha olvidado mucho español
16:48:58 <elliott> boily: tes mensonges sont aussi transparentes que l'existence présumée vraie de la langue qu'ils sont écrits po.
16:49:32 <boily> elliott: the É is real! long live acute marks!
16:50:26 <kmc> `echo "¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)" > wisdom/welcome.es
16:50:28 <HackEgo> "¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)" > wisdom/welcome.es
16:50:33 <kmc> `run echo "¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)" > wisdom/welcome.es
16:51:14 <Deewiant> Re. Spanish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LjDe4sLER0
16:52:09 <kmc> Laurita: ¿cómo descubriste este canal?
16:53:00 <kmc> programa usted los ordenadores?
16:54:00 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:55:18 <boily> `echo "Bienvenue sur le centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d'informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l'autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)" > wisdom/welcome.fr
16:55:19 <HackEgo> "Bienvenue sur le centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d'informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l'autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)" > wisdom/welcome.fr
16:55:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wisdom.fr: not found
16:55:36 <boily> `run echo "Bienvenue sur le centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d'informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l'autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)" > wisdom/welcome.fr
16:55:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wisdom.fr: not found
16:55:59 <elliott> for a start it's welcome.fr, not wisdom.fr :P
16:56:05 <HackEgo> Bienvenue sur le centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d'informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l'autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
16:56:16 <boily> you didn't see nothing.
16:56:19 <kmc> `run ls wisdom | paste
16:56:24 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1022
16:56:52 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules and automatic squirrel feeders
16:57:03 <Taneb> I forgot about that
16:57:07 <kmc> `? välkommen
16:57:08 <HackEgo> Hej och välkommen till den internationella knutpunkten för design och distribution av esoteriska programspråk! För mer information, se vår wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (För den andra sortens esoterism, pröva #esoteric på irc.dal.net.)
16:57:15 <Taneb> `? phantom____________________hoover
16:57:15 <kmc> `? bonvenon
16:57:17 <HackEgo> <span accent="British">Your soundcard works perfectly.</span>
16:57:17 <HackEgo> bonvenon Bonvenon al la internacia centro por la desegno kaj ellaso de esoteraj programlingvoj! Por pli da informado, vizitu la Viki-o: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Por la alia speco de esotero, iru al #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
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16:57:24 <boily> `run mv wisdom/welcome.fr wisdom/bienvenue
16:57:25 <kmc> is that esperanto?
16:57:38 <kmc> boily: eh I think it's more helpful to use the codes
16:57:50 <kmc> otherwise I have to remember how to spell bienvenue to greet someone speaking french ;P
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16:57:57 <kmc> but maybe this channel isn't about being helpful
16:58:01 <boily> kmc: what about välkommen?
16:58:02 <kmc> hola copumpkin
16:58:08 <boily> this channe is all about helpfulness.
16:58:12 <boily> (and squirrel feeding.)
16:58:16 <kmc> copumpkin: hablemos español hoy
16:58:31 <kmc> `? misspellings of croissant
16:58:33 <HackEgo> misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
16:58:39 <elliott> kmc: you realise translating the welcome isn't for the benefit of people who speak that language
16:58:53 <kmc> furthermore,
16:59:55 <kmc> they're corkscrew shaped
17:00:07 <metasepia> corkscrew definition: a device for drawing corks from bottles that has a pointed spiral piece of metal turned by a handle.
17:00:56 <Taneb> So I've heard, kmc
17:01:05 <Taneb> However I fail to see the relevance
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17:01:35 <metasepia> Relevance is a measure of how pertinent, connected, or applicable something is.
17:01:49 <kmc> ~duck types
17:01:50 <metasepia> type definition: a person or thing (as in the Old Testament) believed to foreshadow another (as in the New Testament).
17:01:56 <metasepia> Neurotheology, also known as spiritual neuroscience, attempts to explain religious experience and behaviour in neuroscientific terms.
17:03:05 <boily> ~duck anatidaephobia
17:03:55 <Taneb> One of my gran's ex-boyfriend's birthday just got published in the Times today
17:04:03 <kmc> anyone translate the welcome to lojban?
17:08:21 <kmc> Gregor: can codu.org (or at least the hackbot pastes) be configured to specify that it's serving UTF-8?
17:08:44 <Gregor> You tell me how to make Mercurial do that and I'll do that.
17:08:53 <kmc> it's sending Content-Type:text/plain; charset="ascii"
17:09:02 <kmc> you're using Mercurial as a web server?
17:10:04 <Gregor> It uses the Mercurial web CGI thing.
17:10:18 <kmc> I don't know anything about Mercurial..........
17:10:25 <kmc> I could guess what "fshg" is I supposee
17:10:29 <Gregor> Well then I guess we're not going to be fixing this problem today.
17:10:40 <kmc> we will not go to space today
17:10:49 <kmc> anyway I'm doing research but Chrome is shitting its pants
17:10:54 <kmc> i will get back to you if I figure out how
17:12:33 <elliott> well I mean Gregor could set his webserver to override the headers sent
17:13:56 <kmc> rebooted Chrome
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17:38:15 <tswett> boily: I guess Combientièm is finished.
17:38:16 <lambdabot> tswett: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
17:38:22 <tswett> And I'm reasonably sure it's Turing-complete.
17:39:02 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1m 10d 8h 53m 2s ago: <tswett> I think that given a finite state machine with n states, you can construct a finite state machine with, like, O(n^3 log n) states that solves its halting
17:39:02 <lambdabot> problem. <-- you seem close to reinventing hierarchy theorems...
17:39:02 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1m 10d 8h 24m 57s ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_countable_ordinals
17:39:02 <lambdabot> boily said 3h 2m 40s ago: how's your combientièm(e) lang going on?
17:39:21 <tswett> I guess that's why lambdabot said I should /msg her.
17:39:57 * Lymia notes to start on her, er, concept for a bfjoust warrior
17:40:15 <Lymia> I'm aiming for >80.0~
17:41:12 <fizzie> Why aim for anything less than a hundred?
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17:42:09 <fizzie> Also, misread "Turgid-complete". (I suppose many esolangs are that too.)
17:42:20 <Lymia> fizzie, because I'm not 100% sure it's possible :p
17:42:41 <Lymia> Or, at least, computationally feasible.
17:43:53 <fizzie> With the power of your IMAGINATION, anything is possible.
17:44:25 <Lymia> There likely exists at least one program P that beats the whole hill, and every program that has ever existed on the hill.
17:44:38 <Lymia> Finding it is likely computationally infeasible, although /possible/
17:45:51 <fizzie> You have to reach for the stars in order to something something something.
17:47:00 <oklopol> tswett: solves its halting in what sense?
17:47:09 <oklopol> accepts the strings on which the original halts?
17:47:28 <oklopol> are these two-way machines?
17:47:37 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/WbfA <- stars.
17:47:47 <oklopol> otherwise i have a much better solution: 1 state.
17:48:41 <fizzie> "you have to reach for the stars in order to release only mycology.b98 after writing to (-1,-1) ()" this one is probably about Deewiant.
17:49:27 <oklopol> the russian guy who asked about my military rank studies exactly this kind of problems and i'm taking his course atm
17:49:44 <tswett> oklopol: "solves its halting problem" as in "determines whether it halts or not, for all inputs".
17:50:09 <tswett> I realized that there's actually a way better way to do it, that only uses... O(n) states, I think.
17:50:24 <oklopol> and what language does the machine accept exactly?
17:50:37 <tswett> Whatever and whichever, respectively?
17:50:49 <tswett> Assume that there's a state called "HALT" that unconditionally leads to itself.
17:50:55 <tswett> And then it accepts the language {0, 1}.
17:51:19 <tswett> Anyway, you can just run it for about n steps; if it hasn't halted by then, it never will.
17:51:54 <oklopol> so err. you are given a deterministic finite state automaton A, and you need to produce an automaton B which, say, accepts something if A always halts, and otherwise accepts nothing? you need 1 state.
17:52:09 <tswett> Well, yeah, that's correct.
17:52:13 <oklopol> and the answer is that it always halts
17:52:26 <oklopol> your bound is not optimal but i suppose it's correct
17:52:26 <tswett> Wait, I think I misread "accepts".
17:52:50 <oklopol> 1+1 is less than 1893798374
17:52:51 <tswett> What does it mean for an FSA to accept a language, again?
17:53:29 <oklopol> if A is a DFA (deterministic finite state automaton), its language is the set of words w such that after reading w, A is in an accepting state.
17:53:48 <oklopol> a DFA will walk once over its input, then halt in some state
17:54:18 <oklopol> it has an initial state from which it starts, and it has a function that determines what state it enters next, given the current state and the current symbol
17:54:26 <oklopol> some states are accepting, some are not
17:57:37 <oklopol> what i thought you wanted was to take a two-way DFA (so it has a rule that determines what state it enters next _and which way to move_, given the current state and the current symbol), and construct another two-way DFA that accepts the words on which the previous does not halt.
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17:58:00 <oklopol> i think you need at most 4n states for this
17:59:17 <Arc_Koen> are you talking about FSAJoust?
17:59:36 <oklopol> i'm just trying to find out what tswett is talking about
17:59:45 <Lymia> I hope nobody actually makes that
18:00:17 <oklopol> jousting with pebble automata might be fun
18:00:18 <kmc> well bfjoust programs are already fine state machines
18:00:25 <kmc> finite too
18:00:38 <oklopol> not in any relevant sense though
18:01:25 <oklopol> or otherwise it makes no sense, conceptually, to run the programs on inputs of multiple sizes
18:01:52 <fizzie> In befjoust, you play all the 441 different playfield rectangles from 10x10 to 30x30; your flag is in the top left corner, and the opponent's is in the bottom right.
18:02:30 <Arc_Koen> what happens if I use the command p with coordinates outside the rectangle?
18:02:48 <fizzie> I suppose you lose by way of analogue from "falling off the tape".
18:03:10 <fizzie> In beefjoust, everything's delicious.
18:03:25 <elliott> fizzie: another idea for overoptimising bf joust interpretation: you can share work between tape lengths
18:03:50 <elliott> like, before you reach a square another warrior set or the edge of the tape, everything is always exactly the same
18:04:22 <Fiora_> is the code for the bf joust interpreter thing online?
18:04:25 <elliott> so you can simulate when they'll "meet" on the smallest length and then take that as the first N steps of every longer tape length
18:04:25 -!- Fiora_ has changed nick to Fiora.
18:04:30 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: if you make befjoust, you might as well have 4 warriors
18:04:32 <elliott> just by putting zeroes in the middle
18:04:43 <elliott> Fiora: http://git.zem.fi/chainlance
18:04:58 <oklopol> erm so when it says "move toward the opponent" in >, does that mean move toward the opponent's flag?
18:05:50 <Arc_Koen> a simpler interpretation would be "move right" and then "by convention, all warriors are written as if they were the left warrior"
18:06:13 <elliott> that sounds less simple :P
18:06:31 <boily> !bfjoust fwoggle ><><><>>>><<<<
18:06:34 <EgoBot> Score for boily_fwoggle: 6.5
18:06:44 <fizzie> That's pretty close to fizzie_headless_chicken.
18:06:54 <boily> how in the fungot did I manage to score >0.0 ???
18:06:54 <fungot> boily: roosa's pulling fiz's nose. :p don't think that matters greatly for the semantics... we proved earlier that urban's original bf is fnord.
18:06:58 <Fiora> whooa, it's written in asm?
18:06:59 <fizzie> Except it goes a bit further.
18:08:00 <elliott> fizzie: Fiora is probably referring to the header file?
18:08:08 <fizzie> Oh, well, that's chainlance.
18:08:13 <fizzie> Fiora: You want to be looking at gearlance.c.
18:08:36 <elliott> why does egobot use the non-jitting one, anyway?
18:08:40 <Fiora> oh, what's the difference between the asm part and the switch inteprreter in gearlance?
18:08:53 <fizzie> Turns out the threaded-code-computed-goto was faster than my admittedly clunky and optimization-less JIT version.
18:08:58 <fizzie> If I remember rightly, anyway.
18:09:34 <elliott> fizzie: you know you want to write the parallel-with-syncing work-sharing-across-tape-lengths-(and-polarities???) mega-JIT version!!!
18:10:08 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure I don't want to want to, though.
18:11:20 <tswett> oklopol: all right, I'm talking about something a lot simpler.
18:11:31 <Fiora> wow. computed gotos. this looks wonderfully fun
18:11:32 <tswett> Namely, a DFA with no input.
18:12:10 <tswett> Entering a halting state at any time.
18:12:10 <oklopol> each DFA either halts or not?
18:13:01 <oklopol> so given a tswett-DFA A, you need to output a tswett-DFA that says "yes" if A halts, and you need to output a tswett-DFA that says "no" if it doesn't halt?
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18:13:59 <oklopol> which, again, does not contradict what you said, i was just wondering if maybe the n^3 log n was for a reason.
18:14:03 <tswett> I guess the significant result is that the halting problem can be computed using however much space and however much time.
18:14:33 <tswett> Yeah, I figured it was possible to solve the halting problem for a DFA using O(n^3 log n) space.
18:14:35 <Lymia> fizzie, how do you implement ({}) exactly?
18:14:43 <Lymia> I'm going to have to write a custom parser for this project, I'm almost positive.
18:14:48 <oklopol> well tswett-DFA are essentially just booleans with a fancy representation.
18:15:01 <Fiora> hmm, here's a silly idea. what if you had 8^2 possible labels instead of 8 of them, i.e. like for each possible pair of A/B instructions?
18:15:05 <Lymia> I need to do manipulations on a sub-joust level, in parallel, with a huge number of warriors.
18:15:09 <tswett> They are. The only hard part is evaluating the representation.
18:15:13 <Fiora> so like "[<" would be if A is doing [ and B is doing <
18:15:20 <Fiora> that'd cut the jumps in half, right?
18:15:32 <Fiora> if maybe make them even worsely unpredictable I guess
18:15:53 <elliott> how about 8^200000? then you could just use one jump
18:15:54 <Lymia> And it won't optimize much
18:16:19 <elliott> well halving jumps sounds like the kind of thing that would save a lot of time
18:16:42 <oklopol> yes, the computational complexity of actually finding out whether to output a tswett-DFA that says "yes" or one that says "no" is more complicated.
18:16:44 <fizzie> Fiora: It would also make dispatching to the next instruction worse. I mean, you can't prepare in advance the sequence of your double-instructions.
18:16:56 <oklopol> prolly O(n) or O(n^2) depending on your definitions.
18:17:12 <Fiora> fizzie: ahh, that makes sense.
18:17:53 <tswett> Is O(n!) the same as O(n^n)?
18:18:00 <fizzie> Fiora: Since (++--)*-1 and (<<<>>>)*-1 would execute essentially (+< +< -< -> +> +>)*-1 and working out that in general sounds bad, esp. with []s involved.
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18:18:18 <Fiora> yeah, I see now :<
18:18:41 <oklopol> n^n is O(n^n) but not O(n!)
18:18:49 <tswett> Yeah, I guess it's pretty clear that n^n/n! increases without bound.
18:19:22 <oklopol> yes. n! is o(n^n) i suppose.
18:19:34 <fizzie> Fiora: I have a Befunge-93 interpreter that has 4*N labels, one for each current direction (for those where it matters).
18:20:50 <oklopol> "calculating n! is o(n^n) i suppose."?
18:22:03 <oklopol> the point was that the function (n \mapsto n!) is o(n^n), that is, the limit of n!/n^n is 0
18:22:03 <fizzie> Lymia: I implement ({})%N so that ( does count=N, { does if (--count) jump back, } does count=0 and ) does if (++count == N) jump back.
18:22:21 <fizzie> (With a stack involved to handle nesting.)
18:22:23 <oklopol> so the () and {} hassle in bfjoust; erm, why?
18:22:30 <oklopol> why not just allow unbalanced things?
18:22:40 <oklopol> perhaps for optimization of the interpreter
18:23:04 <fizzie> oklopol: I believe it's to make that easier, yes.
18:23:14 <Lymia> fizzie, push the stack when you find a ()%?
18:23:39 <fizzie> Lymia: Well, it pushes on ( and }, pops on { and ).
18:24:08 <tromp> n! = Theta((n/e)^n sqrt(n))
18:24:34 <Lymia> How does this handle the loop being interrupted from the middle?
18:24:45 <fizzie> It doesn't need to be handled specially.
18:24:55 <fizzie> The other side counts up, so it goes right automatically.
18:25:18 <Lymia> And the rest is matching () with {}?
18:25:40 <fizzie> If you're doing the 50'th iteration of the ({ part, and jump out of it into the corresponding }), you'll do the remaining (corresponding) 50 iterations of the }).
18:25:51 <Lymia> How do you find the corrasponding one?
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18:26:17 <fizzie> Lymia: Well, you can look at the parser. There's some stacks involved.
18:26:33 <fizzie> Actually, I'm not sure you want to look at the parser, it's not pretty.
18:26:38 <Lymia> I guess there's no jump aheads involved in ()
18:26:44 <Lymia> Meaning you can just push the location on a stack to begin with
18:26:53 <Lymia> Without too much preformance penality
18:26:56 <FreeFull> oklopol: What is the complexity of multiplication?
18:27:20 <fizzie> Lymia: If you mean runtime, there's no stack of locations involved in any of [] () ({}), since all the locations are static.
18:27:30 <oklopol> i don't remember what the best one is
18:27:55 <FreeFull> Won't n! usually have n-1 multiplications
18:28:11 <oklopol> we are not discussing the complexity of computing n!
18:28:16 <fizzie> Lymia: The parser populates each of those instructions with the index of the matching one. (Plus extra links between the {}s of a ().)
18:28:37 <Lymia> fizzie, yeah, I see
18:28:38 <oklopol> but yes, it has n-1 multiplications when written down
18:29:15 * Lymia goes ahead and just uses imperative idioms for parsing
18:29:41 <fizzie> Lymia: As for the parser, I tokenize everything into a list of struct op's first; then do one pass that matches ()s and ({})s together; and then another pass that matches each [] while checking that they don't "cross levels".
18:30:03 <Lymia> I can likely omit the cross level check
18:31:23 <oklopol> computing the binary representation of n! from the binary representation of n must be exponential time because the output is of superexponential length
18:34:30 <fizzie> (And a third pass which turns (Z)*N into (Z)*0, (Z{a}b)%N into (Z)*0a(b)*N and (a{b}Z)%N into (a)*Nb()*0, where Z is any string with no +-<>.[]; and a fourth pass that removes (...)*0 and turns (...{a}...)%0 to plain a. Pass #3 is for the DoS issue, and pass #4 is because the interpreter assumes that every () and ({}) loops at least once.)
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18:37:50 <Fiora> how does the op_rep thing work with nested repeats?
18:38:33 <Fiora> ooh, it has a repeat stack
18:39:46 <fizzie> Yes, and with complex stuff like (a(b{c{d}e}f)%Ng)%M, by the time you get to c, the (b{%N part pretty much no longer matters at all, so it can just push on the stack on all ( and }, and pop from the stack on all { and ).
18:40:35 <elliott> hm, does ((a(b{cd}{e}f)%Ng)%M make sense
18:40:56 <fizzie> It's at least not allowed.
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18:41:42 <fizzie> I only have a meaning for the (a(b{c{d}e}f)%Ng)%M case, and even that's a bit theoretical.
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18:43:00 <boily> !bfjoust theoreoetic (([(-{>-}{]}+)%1>)%2
18:43:03 <EgoBot> Score for boily_theoreoetic: 0.0
18:43:33 <fizzie> It's going to barf on that, I can tell from the {]} already.
18:43:35 <Bike> take THAT, theoreticians
18:44:03 <boily> !bfjoust theoreoetic (([(-{>-}{.}]+)%1>)%2
18:44:06 <EgoBot> Score for boily_theoreoetic: 0.0
18:44:19 <boily> I still prefer my fwoggle.
18:44:37 <kmc> http://maximecb.github.com/Turing-Drawings/
18:44:45 <elliott> fizzie: well the meaning should be the same as the * form, presumably
18:44:51 <elliott> the potentially-invalid * form that is
18:45:37 <fizzie> elliott: Could you expand (a(b{c}{d}e)%2f)%3 for me, then, in terms of abcdef.
18:45:58 <kmc> http://demoseen.com/langton
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18:47:27 <elliott> (b{c}{d}e)%2 --> (b)*2c({d}e)*2 --> bbc{d}e{d}e ok never mind
18:47:55 <fizzie> !bfjoust nested_repeats_need_love_too (>>++<<(++-{>+<}-++)%20)%-1 (yeah, yeah, makes not much sense)*0
18:47:58 <EgoBot> Score for fizzie_nested_repeats_need_love_too: 8.5
18:48:28 <Bike> does wolfram even give a damn about automata that don't have his name on them
18:48:40 <fizzie> Er, I think I forgot the second pair of {s.
18:48:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, he does if he can modify them enough to rename them!
18:49:07 <Taneb> fizzie, wouldn't %-1 just end up as -
18:49:07 <Bike> well i mean has he done that with langton
18:49:37 <fizzie> Taneb: Yes, I was going to put a regular ()*-1 around the whole thing, but got all confuzzled. I'll try it again.
18:49:46 <boily> !bfjoust wooden+ (>)*8(->)*15([-.]>)*30
18:49:49 <EgoBot> Score for boily_wooden_: 0.0
18:50:13 <boily> !bfjoust wooden+ (>)*8(->)*5([-]>)*30
18:50:16 <EgoBot> Score for boily_wooden_: 4.9
18:50:31 <boily> !bfjoust wooden+ (>)*8(->)*5(++++[-.]>)*30
18:50:34 <EgoBot> Score for boily_wooden_: 1.0
18:50:51 <boily> I think there may be some strategic elements I *may* not quite grasp yet.
18:51:05 <fizzie> !bfjoust nested_repeats_need_love_too ((>>++<<(++-{+++{>>>+<<<}---}-++)%20>>-<<)%20)*-1 (still makes no sense)*0
18:51:08 <EgoBot> Score for fizzie_nested_repeats_need_love_too: 8.3
18:51:10 <elliott> boily: that dies on too-short tapes, for a start
18:51:10 <Bike> what's the definition of Control.Monad.forever because the standard isn't too helpful
18:51:19 <elliott> Bike: forever m = m >> forever m
18:51:20 <FireFly> !bfjoust poor_defender_thing >>+<-<(-)*60(+)*65[-]
18:51:23 <elliott> or forever m = do { m; forever m }
18:51:23 <EgoBot> Score for FireFly_poor_defender_thing: 3.0
18:51:46 <elliott> also are you really still reading the report over lyah.
18:51:58 <boily> elliott: I need a tape length detector: if I die when advancing, then the tape ends there.
18:52:17 <elliott> Bike you're going to regret this have you even read the applicative functor chapter yet.
18:52:23 <elliott> that covers something that's not even in the standard.
18:53:04 <Bike> shocking twist
18:53:05 <oklopol> http://maximecb.github.com/Turing-Drawings/#4,3,2,1,3,1,1,1,1,1,3,2,2,1,1,2,3,0,1,3,1,1,2,1,1,1,0,2,0,2,1,2,1,2,0,1,2,0 these are awesome :D
18:53:12 <fizzie> !bfjoust nested_repeats_need_love_too ((+--+(++-{--+{-}++-}--+)%20-++-)%20)*-1 (let's just vibrate)*0
18:53:14 <EgoBot> Score for fizzie_nested_repeats_need_love_too: 14.3
18:53:21 <elliott> (in fact Bike should have already read that chapter before asking about forever)
18:53:29 <elliott> (because you should learn about applicative functors before monads)
18:53:31 <fizzie> Or is that shuddering.
18:53:36 <fizzie> I don't know, I don't do jousting.
18:53:53 <elliott> (or actually forever should be defined with an Applicative constraint rather than a Monad one, but that's backwards compatibility for you)
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18:57:04 <Taneb> oklopol, looks like sand dunes
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19:10:57 <boily> !bfjoust canoninoff (>)*9([(+)*9[-]]>)*21
19:11:00 <EgoBot> Score for boily_canoninoff: 18.5
19:11:10 <boily> when all else fails, read the documentation.
19:14:02 <boily> !bfjoust wooden_ (>++>+>-->-)*3(>[(+)*8[-...]])*18
19:14:05 <EgoBot> Score for boily_wooden_: 8.2
19:14:08 <Fiora> eep. when I try to execute chainlance's asm, I get "cannot excute binary file" after assembling :<
19:14:14 <boily> !bfjoust wooden_ (>++>+>-->-)*3(>[(+)*8[-]])*18
19:14:17 <EgoBot> Score for boily_wooden_: 17.5
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19:15:13 <AnotherTest> Does ducktyping always allow for generic programming?
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19:16:57 <Fiora> does anyone have any idea what this might be :<
19:17:07 <Fiora> all the results on google are trying to run a 64-bit binary on 32-bit but my system is 64-bit
19:17:36 <AnotherTest> Fiora: then there should be no problem at all?
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19:18:17 <kmc> Fiora: what do you get from 'file thebinaryfile'
19:18:28 <Fiora> test: ELF 64-bit LSB relocatable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), not stripped
19:18:37 <elliott> Fiora: you need to append the warrior code to the header file, aiui
19:18:45 <elliott> I don't think it'll work by itself
19:18:47 <Fiora> wait but I thought it alreaddoes that
19:18:51 <Fiora> the output code has the headerin it
19:19:05 <elliott> I thought you were trying to assemble header.asm by itself or something, never mind
19:19:18 <AnotherTest> elliott: Does ducktyping always allow for generic programming?
19:19:25 <Fiora> I'm doing ./chainlance header.asm in1 in2 > test.asm;yasm -f elf -m amd64 test.asm -O2 -o test
19:19:36 <elliott> AnotherTest: I'm... not quite sure waht you mean by that
19:19:43 <kmc> oh well it's a relocatable and not an executable
19:19:44 <elliott> in particular there are tons of kinds of generic programming
19:19:53 <elliott> Fiora: "test" is like an .o file
19:19:54 <kmc> you need to invoke a linker somehow
19:19:57 <elliott> you need to link it into an executable
19:20:06 <kmc> i recommend gcc
19:20:44 <Fiora> okay, I ran it and it runs but it does nothing (?)
19:20:52 <elliott> maybe it outputs only via exit code or such
19:21:03 <Fiora> does it take arguments?
19:21:05 <elliott> probably fizzie's answer is more useful than my guessing here :P
19:21:07 <Taneb> "That bump will likely be relatively small, and continue for just a few days before settling down again, but it's already crowded out most of the offtopic discussion in #esoteric, leaving it mostly with BF Joust discussion"
19:21:17 <Taneb> -- ais523, February 2011
19:21:40 <Taneb> elliott, did you ever finish Shiro?
19:21:42 <Fiora> oh wow it literally returns an exit code @_@
19:21:46 <Fiora> um, how do I print the exit code in bash
19:22:04 <fizzie> Fiora: It does indeed return the result as the exit code.
19:22:16 <AnotherTest> elliott: Well, that's true. Let us take the generic programing form where you make abstraction of fundamental requirements/restrictions on types and thus allows you to write generic algorithms that work for a given set of types that are related to each others by concepts
19:22:27 <fizzie> Fiora: Did you add the ? there?
19:22:28 <Bike> i love concepts
19:22:33 <elliott> Taneb: Shiro worked and almost passed Mycology (like one edge-case it failed) and had like 10 fingerprints implemented
19:22:52 <elliott> though I believe accessing the code would cost me ~£500 because I am an idiot
19:22:56 <Bike> Fiora: "$?" is the name of the variable.
19:23:18 <Bike> the bash variable meaning "the last exit code".
19:23:20 <elliott> also if you did echo $ then you need to run the command again, since running echo itself sets $?
19:23:21 <Fiora> geez it takes 0.005 seconds to load and run the program o_O
19:23:24 <Fiora> between two huge programs too
19:23:55 <fizzie> Fiora: Sure, but you have to factor in the compilation time too, since no-one's interested in running the same thing repeatedly.
19:24:13 <Fiora> I guess it'd probably be way faster if it outputted asm directly but that'd be hard
19:24:19 <elliott> fizzie: but what if you want to measure ram bit flips??
19:24:44 <fizzie> Fiora: It could make sense if it'd save a compiled single program so that in hill use you'd only need to compile the new competitor and then do a bit combining.
19:24:57 <fizzie> (But that's not how it's written.)
19:25:06 <Fiora> I was thinking the code could be maybe made faster by using call/ret instead of the ip-exchanging thing
19:25:16 <Fiora> e.g. A calls B, B jumps to nextcycle, nextcycle rets to A
19:25:23 <Fiora> but I guess it doesn't really matter :<
19:26:28 <Fiora> (the reason is that feels like it'd eliminate at least ~half the branch mispredictions, since the calls would be super predictable)
19:29:24 <elliott> kmc: isn't it kind of awful how MaybeT is slower than using IO + exceptions
19:29:41 <elliott> I wonder if you can make a faster MaybeT that uses unsafePerformIO internally
19:29:44 <elliott> might have problems with nesting I guess
19:29:55 <kmc> you saw my Maybe# right
19:31:05 <elliott> I think monad transformer stacks are kind of slow in general
19:31:26 <Taneb> Is that a problem with Haskell, or with GHC
19:31:55 <elliott> well it's a problem of repeatedly packing and unpacking a billion levels of data every bind
19:32:05 <elliott> a Sufficiently Smart Compiler could remove it all, but that's not really saying anything
19:32:44 <kmc> JIT JIT JIT JIT JIT JIT JIT JIT
19:33:18 <Bike> you know you want... something
19:33:35 <Taneb> you know you want tswett
19:34:16 <kmc> you know you want towriteatracingjitforhaskell
19:34:25 <kmc> didn't edwardk have one in the works
19:34:53 <kmc> I would be tremendously amused and not entirely surprised to hear that certain Haskell programs run faster when compiled to JS and run in V8
19:35:31 <Taneb> ...compared to GHC with default options?
19:35:36 <kmc> compared to GHC ever
19:35:54 <kmc> because V8 can trace through all those abstractions and optimize them
19:35:59 <elliott> JITs wouldn't help the competitive befunge interpretation space anyway
19:36:10 <kmc> there are cases where C code runs faster when you compile it to JS and run it in V8
19:36:11 <elliott> since there's one program you have to run instantly or everyone makes fun of you
19:36:22 <kmc> canonical example is printf with a constant format string
19:36:55 <kmc> a JIT can do optimization with information that's not available at compile time; it can even make assumptions that don't always hold (and just bail when they fail to hold)
19:37:24 <kmc> a lot of function parameters become constants when you're looking only at calls in your hot path
19:37:27 <kmc> and so can be constant-folded
19:37:45 <kmc> entire chunks of code removed due to unreachability, tests for edge cases dropped
19:37:48 <kmc> p. cool stuff
19:38:00 <Bike> wait, if the format string is constant why couldn't a static compiler do it.
19:38:07 <kmc> it could in this case
19:38:23 <kmc> but it would need either printf-specific code or a pretty sophisticated compile time partial evaluation / supercompilation engine
19:38:31 <kmc> not that compilers don't have printf specific code but anyway
19:38:45 <kmc> this stuff is much easier (read: tractable at all) if you are doing it at runtime and only for the case you actually encounter
19:39:35 <elliott> the equivalent of a JIT for haskell is pretty much a lazy specialiser I think
19:39:40 <kmc> GCC will at least optimize printf("%s", x) to puts(x) but, I mean, c'mon
19:39:49 <elliott> which is a kind of ridiculously complicated piece of tech that nobody knows how to write
19:40:07 <kmc> i think a JIT on STG machine operations would do really well
19:40:39 <Bike> do any used compilers have "a pretty sophisticated partial evaluation / supercompilation engine"
19:40:51 <elliott> because you've made it imperative already by then!
19:41:56 <kmc> not that i know of
19:42:02 <kmc> the problem is that you need to know which cases are worth optimizing
19:42:21 <kmc> since there are obviously a huge number of specializations you could emit for every particular function
19:42:29 <kmc> compile time tends to be a limiting factor, aiui
19:42:37 <kmc> and code size.
19:43:10 <Fiora> normal compilers can do optimizations that don't always hold either right? and branch based on them
19:43:24 <Fiora> like one I remember is "compile version that assumes no aliasing, branch based on runtime aliasing"
19:43:30 <kmc> that's clever
19:43:40 <Fiora> I think I heard Intel's compiler does that
19:43:52 <Fiora> it kinda makes sense given their focus on autovectorization while needing to remain correct
19:44:07 <Fiora> assume there's no aliasing, bail to the slow code if there is
19:44:33 <Fiora> I love cool compiler optimizations like that, even if sometimes it feels like the compiler is so dumb
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20:12:23 <oerjan> @tell Lymia <Lymia> I wonder if it'd be possible to construct a valid string s that is the continuation of the rest of the program. <-- there's a way of textually interpreting brainfuck by, at the start of a loop [inloop]rest turning the program into inloop[inloop]rest . that essentially gives you a continuation. (...)*n should be easy to handle similarly. maybe ()%n too...
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20:16:26 <oerjan> @tell Lymia <Lymia> Meaning, like, [+P]+ => [+([+{}]+(.)*-1)%-1]+ <-- hm so you mean putting it _inside_ at that point? i guess the same method would still work by padding with (.)*-1 as you to there. also, i vaguely recall %-1 may not be supported...
20:17:27 <oerjan> @tell Lymia so [+P]+ -> [+[+]+(.)-1]+
20:25:55 <oerjan> <shachaf> Anyway I think it's a good default assumption that I'm in more of a bubble than I think I am. <-- being in a bubble is good. remember, most of the universe is vacuum.
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20:51:52 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523> imagine something as simple as "do >+, then wait for the current cell to become zero, then wait that many cycles again, then do something else" <-- +>([{}]somethingelse(.)*-1)%-1 assuming %-1 is legal
20:52:54 <oerjan> @tell ais523 Oops, discard, duh
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20:55:27 <oerjan> elliott: i meant the whole thing hth
20:55:41 <oerjan> i forgot the entire "wait that many cycles again" part
20:56:12 <oerjan> also apparently %-1 doesn't work, by what's said later
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20:56:47 <oerjan> which if true means fizzie isn't using my elegant constant space method, boo!
20:57:21 <oerjan> at least i think it's constant space
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20:59:43 <elliott> oerjan: well %-1 is pointless...
21:00:09 <elliott> because it is (a)*-1b(c)*-1.
21:00:42 <oerjan> ['s in the a can jump to ]'s in the c
21:01:29 <oerjan> i am assuming a non-expanding implementation, of course
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21:03:25 <Taneb> Wouldn't the -1 in %-1 not get parsed as a number
21:03:27 <oerjan> the only reason to limit the % nesting is if you are somehow pushing things on the stack instead of just bumping a counter.
21:03:31 <Taneb> But a - followed by a comment symbol
21:03:44 <oerjan> Taneb: *-1 is supported syntax
21:04:10 <oerjan> %-1 could be, although i'm not sure whether it is if there is a nesting limit anyhow
21:06:24 <elliott> oerjan: a problem is that %-1 would be distinguishable from %100000, right?
21:06:30 <oerjan> (ok it makes sense to push the _counter_ to the stack, although you could save it in a different way
21:07:22 <oerjan> elliott: it shouldn't, assuming there isn't empty code between ({ or })
21:08:05 <oerjan> although i think it's common that -1 is interpreted as "a very high number"
21:08:14 <oerjan> so it _shouldn't_ be different.
21:09:08 <oerjan> and fizzie has some empty code removal code, which was discussed recently
21:09:20 <oerjan> turning ()*n into ()*0
21:09:47 <elliott> oerjan: well -1 is meant to be infinite
21:09:48 <oerjan> although it would not _obviously_ work for ({...})%n if he isn't expanding
21:09:58 <elliott> it's just that picking the cycle size works for ()*n, indistinguishably
21:10:21 <oerjan> elliott: not if you are using empty code :P
21:10:43 <elliott> well I would say infinite repetitions of the empty string is the empty string
21:10:49 <elliott> seems to be the most sensible choice
21:11:06 <oerjan> yeah. well in that case you can do it for ()%n as well.
21:11:21 <oerjan> of course, oh right...
21:11:30 <dbelange> Let Th be a formal theory. Suppose that Con (Th). Does it Godel completeness theorem confirms that the corresponding model M_Th of the Th really exists?
21:12:19 <oerjan> if (...{ is empty it can contain no [, which means the corresponding }...) can contain no internally _unmatched_ []'s, which means both can be converted seemlessly to ()*n instead.
21:12:40 <oerjan> which i think fizzie depends on.
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21:15:58 <dbelange> If Pi contains an infinite number of numbers, is it possible that within this infinity, there is an infinite series of 1's?
21:16:15 <oerjan> dbelange: you already asked that last one
21:16:15 <Taneb> Because then Pi would be rational
21:16:36 <Taneb> There could be an arbitrarily long sequence of 1's
21:16:54 <oerjan> dbelange: the 1's cannot be consecutive. there is _probably_ an infinite nonconsecutive subsequence of 1's, but there is no proof.
21:17:30 <oerjan> because pi is believed to be normal, in a famous unsolved problem
21:17:49 <Taneb> How would you go about proving a number to be normal
21:18:10 <oerjan> dbelange: also the completeness theorem does confirm that iirc
21:18:29 <oerjan> Taneb: if you find out in general, you'll be famous
21:18:29 <kmc> dbelange: didn't you ask that already
21:18:30 <tromp> there's only one know class of provable normal numbers
21:18:50 <Taneb> oerjan, I already am famous, darling ;)
21:18:51 <oerjan> tromp: are there any that are provably normal in all bases?
21:18:51 <tromp> i mean known to be provable:)
21:19:40 <tromp> for provable in e.g. base 10 only, there are other examples
21:19:48 <tromp> like champernowne's number
21:20:20 <tromp> but normal (for all bases) has only been proved for halting probabilities
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21:26:22 <oerjan> funny, the only numbers known to be normal cannot be written out, eh?
21:26:58 <elliott> maybe that's inherent for all numbers normal in all bases, or something.
21:27:05 <elliott> they contain too much information, or some such nonsense
21:27:11 <Taneb> Would knowing whether pi is normal be useful in any way
21:27:18 <Bike> can't you write out champernowne's
21:27:26 <elliott> yes it'd let you respond to people who ask whether it is or not.
21:27:29 <elliott> Bike: that's only for base 10
21:27:47 <oerjan> i was wondering, couldn't you do something with factorial base. or wait that would be backward.
21:27:57 <elliott> Champernowne proved that is normal in base ten, although it is possible that it is not normal in other bases.[3]
21:28:27 <fizzie> Fiora: Well, I hope you're happy now: I implemented your suggestion of having 8^2 (actually, 12^2) labels, and not only is it slightly slower -- http://sprunge.us/EFND -- it's also horrible -- http://sprunge.us/QMAR?c -- to behold.
21:29:19 <elliott> fizzie: ok, now do 3. or 4.
21:29:27 <elliott> you may need a perl script.
21:29:37 <fizzie> All I need is the preprocessor.
21:31:43 * oerjan has no idea what fizzie is talking about now
21:32:24 <Fiora> wow that's terrifically messy
21:32:51 <oerjan> fizzie: btw why does %n have a nesting limit thx
21:32:58 <Fiora> combining the repetition loops with that seems like it'd be particularly terrible
21:34:01 <Fiora> sorry for wasting your time though >_<
21:34:02 <oerjan> hm it's easy to make a number normal in a finite set of bases; just consider their lcm. i think.
21:34:14 <oerjan> well assuming you can do it for one.
21:34:31 <oerjan> so then, couldn't you actually _do_ something like factorial base...
21:35:52 <oerjan> this is so simple it either must be well-known, or have a fatal flaw.
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21:38:11 <tromp> you're claiming Champernowne's number is normal in both base 2 and 5?
21:38:31 <Fiora> um, an optimization idea that might apply to both: make &tape[tapesize] a global constant? so it doesn't have to calculate it for the comparisons
21:38:38 <tromp> i fail to see that
21:38:39 <Fiora> well, constant per run
21:38:40 <fizzie> oerjan: Ease of implementation. It's C, not well-known for its resizable arrays, and many pieces of code touch those. But perhaps I should make it so that it dynamically sets the nesting limit equal to the number of (s in the program; I don't suppose you can nest any deeper than that.
21:39:41 <oerjan> tromp: oh it isn't? hm.
21:39:50 <fizzie> Fiora: Isn't a compiler supposed to be clever enough for that kind of stuff? I mean, it's all within a function, shouldn't it be able to figure out that nothing changes tapesize and use a single computed value?
21:39:57 <tromp> it may be. i dunno:(
21:40:01 <Fiora> ah, that should be okay I guess
21:40:14 <Fiora> one thing I worry about is how well the compiler handles the crazy computed gotos though, and keeping things in registers
21:40:41 <Fiora> I guess looking at the asm might help...
21:40:59 <Fiora> but yeah, sorry :< I wonder why this did worse though. maybe it made branch prediction even awfuller
21:41:34 <oerjan> fizzie: er, i thought from the discussion that the n in %n was limited, did i misunderstand?
21:42:31 <fizzie> oerjan: That's limited to 100000 but isn't that okay since that's the maximum number of cycles anyway?
21:42:54 <oerjan> fizzie: yes. i misunderstood what the 256/4096 thing was about.
21:43:02 <fizzie> oerjan: It was a nesting depth limit.
21:43:16 <fizzie> oerjan: You used to be able to "only" nest (((()))) up to 256 levels deep.
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21:49:46 <oerjan> "Becher and Figueira proved in 2002 that there is a computable normal number."
21:50:53 <fizzie> Fiora: There's also presumably quite a bit more code, I suppose that could count for something.
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21:51:05 <fizzie> oerjan: I don't suppose they mentioned what it was?
21:51:42 <Fiora> (that frustrating feeling when an optimization that sounds cool doesn't work at all)
21:51:50 <Taneb> oerjan, did they ever get round to working out what it was
21:51:53 <oerjan> "A computable normal number was constructed in (Becher 2002). Although these constructions do not directly give the digits of the numbers constructed, the second shows that it is possible in principle to enumerate all the digits of a particular normal number."
21:53:29 <elliott> haha, so it was actually a non-constructive proof?
21:54:40 <Bike> isn't that what you'd expect from "proved that there is" rather than a link to the constant named after them
21:55:47 <elliott> chaitin's constant is also non-constructive and that has a name
21:57:30 <Taneb> Gregory Chaitin: keepin' it real since '75
22:00:35 <dbelange> Gregory Chaitin: The man who brought you "theorems are like boobs" and "theorems are like child-bearing hips"
22:01:22 <dbelange> mathematical ideas or the physical universe,
22:01:22 <dbelange> in a word, by their “fertility”. Just as the beauty of a woman’s breasts or
22:01:25 <dbelange> the delicious curve of her hips is actually
22:01:43 <dbelange> l0l http://arxiv.org/abs/math/0404335
22:02:02 <Bike> man i knew he was crazy but what the christ
22:03:34 <oerjan> @tell Lymia <Lymia> That never /loses/ a single joust <-- the other day i believe i proved that you cannot make a program that can never lose on a particular tape/polarity.
22:07:43 <elliott> surely the "optimal rushes" draw at worst?
22:07:50 <elliott> oh because defence programs. ok never mind.
22:08:23 <oerjan> elliott: i am pretty sure you were the person i previously explained the proof to
22:08:38 <elliott> right i just didn't realise that was what you proved :P
22:09:02 <Taneb> Is it possible to create a program that always wines more than it loses across all tape lengths and polarities
22:09:21 <oerjan> Taneb: QUESTION FOR FURTHER RESEARCH, THAT IS
22:09:30 <Bike> hey elliott i'm actually reading lyah again now. why isn't (a ->) syntactically valid?
22:09:43 <elliott> well i guess because (-> a) wouldn't be
22:10:08 <Taneb> Because no type level lambdas
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22:10:23 <Taneb> infix notation is syntax sugar for lambdas, iirc
22:10:57 <oerjan> was there an extension that made (a ->) valid or not
22:11:12 <Taneb> oerjan, I do not recall one.
22:11:12 <elliott> Bike: because giving instances for something like (-> a) would cause major ambiguity and type inference problems.
22:11:18 <elliott> you also cannot partially-apply type synonyms for this reason etc.
22:11:33 <elliott> whereas (a ->) is just ((->) a), i.e. a partially applied non-type-synonym
22:11:47 <Bike> you could still have sections one way couldn'tcha
22:12:07 <oerjan> but they may just not have bothered
22:12:15 <elliott> yes but (a ->) working but not (-> a) could be viewed as confusing. I would probably allow it personally, just offering a possible reason
22:12:33 <Taneb> Other than (->), infix types require an extension
22:12:33 <shachaf> I would allow it impersonally.
22:12:41 <HackEgo> Bike: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:12:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: välkommen: not found
22:13:11 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: tervetuloa: not found
22:13:12 <HackEgo> Hej och välkommen till den internationella knutpunkten för design och distribution av esoteriska programspråk! För mer information, se vår wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (För den andra sortens esoterism, pröva #esoteric på irc.dal.net.)
22:13:27 <shachaf> someone plz add `tervetuloa thx
22:14:10 <olsner> oh, at SEA, not at sea
22:14:56 <Taneb> `run echo "tervetuloa: ask shachaf" > wisdom/tervetuloa
22:15:08 <Bike> is it ok if i just ignore all this "box" stuff
22:15:30 -!- impomatic has left.
22:15:34 <elliott> ps i dont remember half of lyah
22:15:41 <Bike> as a metaphor for monads or functors or whatever
22:15:42 <shachaf> oh no is it talking about polykinds
22:15:43 <olsner> I haven't read lyah I think
22:15:46 <shachaf> or is it saying functors are boxes
22:15:54 <Bike> it's saying something like that
22:15:58 <olsner> Bike: do ignore all metaphors, they're useless
22:16:02 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Are you on drugs?
22:16:04 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Are you on drugs?
22:16:07 <Taneb> functors are functors
22:16:19 <Taneb> They're like monads but less powerful and more general
22:16:22 <Bike> i thought elliott said they were endofunctors :(
22:16:27 <Bike> MORE POWERRRRR
22:16:31 <lambdabot> kmc says: in C++ you give the [design] pattern a name so you can look it up and copy it out of the book when you repeat it
22:16:31 <elliott> Bike: functors are just something you can map over <-- more useful than a box metaphor
22:16:40 <lambdabot> kmc says: Haskell is a language where the community observes that there are 50 incompatible error handling monads, and the response is 50 incompatible packages for generically handling all error
22:16:45 <shachaf> @remember kmc monads are like containers, as long as you forget everything you know about the meaning of the word "container" and take it to be a totally abstract word synonymous with "monad"
22:16:50 <Bike> this isn't working
22:16:52 <Taneb> And with that I say goodnight
22:17:29 <Bike> "I will never forget."
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22:18:10 <FreeFull> I usually view monads as a way of chaining a -> m a functions
22:18:22 <Bike> so on a related note
22:18:31 <Bike> "In the same vein, if we write fmap :: (a -> b) -> (f a -> f b), we can think of fmap not as a function that takes one function and a functor and returns a functor, but as a function that takes a function and returns a new function that's just like the old one, only it takes a functor as a parameter and returns a functor as the result."
22:18:33 <elliott> that is a pretty bad way of viewing them considering they can do more than that
22:18:39 <elliott> Bike: oh no, it calls (f a) a functor?
22:18:43 <Bike> i'm having trouble thinking of an "f a" as "a functor"
22:18:45 <elliott> this chapter is worse than I thought.
22:18:48 <Bike> yeah that's what i'm wondering about
22:18:49 <elliott> go back to reading the report.
22:19:02 <Bike> elliott: the report refers to monads as actions hth
22:19:17 <elliott> calling (m a) an action is ok
22:19:29 <Bike> The Monad class defines the basic operations over a monad, a concept from a branch of mathematics known as category theory. From the perspective of a Haskell programmer, however, it is best to think of a monad as an abstract datatype of actions.
22:19:56 <shachaf> calling a value of type (m a) an action is ok
22:19:58 <elliott> that's not an unreasonable description, though "abstract" is meaningless there
22:20:28 <Bike> so how is like, [] an action, in a useful sense
22:21:06 <elliott> it's not [] that's an action
22:21:15 <elliott> it's [1,2,3] :: [Int] that you can consider an action
22:21:21 <elliott> in particular the [] monad models (ordered) nondeterminism
22:21:34 <elliott> > do { x <- [1..10]; y <- [1..10]; guard (x + y == 10); return (x, y) }
22:21:36 <lambdabot> [(1,9),(2,8),(3,7),(4,6),(5,5),(6,4),(7,3),(8,2),(9,1)]
22:21:48 <elliott> > [(x,y) | x <- [1..10], y <- [1..10], x + y == 10]
22:21:50 <lambdabot> [(1,9),(2,8),(3,7),(4,6),(5,5),(6,4),(7,3),(8,2),(9,1)]
22:25:46 <Bike> I don't think I get what guard does. does it just always return [()] there?
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22:26:25 <elliott> it returns [] if x + y /= 10
22:26:26 <oerjan> > guard (1 + 9 == 10) :: [()]
22:26:32 <oerjan> > guard (1 + 8 == 10) :: [()]
22:26:38 <shachaf> Er, return [()] when you give it True.
22:26:58 <elliott> anyway so you can consider [1,2,3] an action that returns 1, 2 or 3, nondeterminstically
22:27:10 <elliott> and the result of composing together all these actions is the list of all possible results of the program
22:27:12 <shachaf> oerjan: No, guard returns [()]
22:27:13 <tromp> guard (1 + 9 == 10) :: [Bool]
22:27:17 <tromp> > guard (1 + 9 == 10) :: [Bool]
22:27:19 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Bool' with actual type `()'
22:27:26 <oerjan> shachaf: it returns return () hth
22:27:33 <elliott> and guard (x + y == 10) is an action that doesn't return if x + y /= 10 and returns with a trivial result otherwise, etc.
22:27:33 <shachaf> "guard True" is "return ()"
22:27:50 <shachaf> imo people talk about functions "returning things" too much
22:28:21 <shachaf> instead of things being things??
22:28:41 <oerjan> shachaf: that's just people returning people.
22:29:02 <dbelange> join us at FOSSCON for talks and real-life collaboration or bring a picnic and come join like-minded geeks for a geeknic
22:29:04 <Jafet> Soylent green returns people to people
22:29:33 <shachaf> elliott: did you hear my monoid pun in #haskell
22:29:38 <shachaf> just mentioning it because you hate monoids
22:30:28 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (m0 ()))
22:30:28 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M78945842...
22:30:43 <tromp> > guard False :: [()]
22:32:19 <Bike> The first functor law states that if we map the id function over a functor, the functor that we get back should be the same as the original functor.
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22:33:09 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
22:33:09 <shachaf> Bike: A value of type (f a) isn't a functor.
22:33:21 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*yevunye@*.csclub.uwaterloo.ca.
22:33:22 -!- oerjan has kicked dbelange I think that's about enough.
22:33:25 <Bike> yes, that seems easy enough
22:33:29 <shachaf> These people are abusing terminology.
22:33:46 <Bike> clearly i was well served by glancing through wikipedia's category theory articles
22:34:14 <shachaf> I,I it's the endofunctor as we know it
22:34:15 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
22:34:28 <Bike> what's that I,I thing
22:35:53 <oerjan> i don't feel any particular need to be generous on that last comment given that he's been banned N times before.
22:37:02 <oerjan> shachaf: about 3 is what i heard.
22:37:11 <Bike> oh was he recurrent
22:37:31 <oerjan> Bike: primitively recursive
22:38:05 <Bike> that's not very recurrent at all!
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22:48:56 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: arr faq ghc map part yarr
22:49:24 <oerjan> 16:41:38: <elliott> kmc: you can use `url when the target is a filename btw
22:49:24 <oerjan> 16:41:42: <elliott> maybe `paste should optimise that
22:49:37 <oerjan> an excellent idea, which is why i already implemented it.
22:50:44 <lambdabot> Eat maggoty hardtack, ye unkempt, jenny frequentin', son of a gun.
22:50:48 <lambdabot> quote provides: quote remember forget ghc fortune yow arr yarr keal b52s brain palomer girl19 v yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw protontorpedo nixon farber
22:51:18 <oerjan> a bit silly to get an ambiguity between synonyms for the same command :P
22:51:28 <Jafet> http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/a/image/1349/90/1349909391603.png
22:54:57 <elliott> oerjan: it's not that it's ambiguous, it's that the edit distance >1, I think
22:55:15 <oerjan> elliott: not for Jafet's @garrr
22:55:45 <elliott> though maybe it's taking y -> a as a delete + remove step
22:56:28 <kmc> shachaf: what do you like about the SEAport
22:56:59 <shachaf> The TSA took my screwdriver here once.
22:57:08 <shachaf> I'm still pretty mad at them because it was a very good screwdriver.
22:57:22 <Bike> > fmap (+) [1,2,3] <*> [9,8,7]
22:57:51 <oerjan> that's usually prettier with <$>
22:58:12 <Bike> > fmap (+) [1,2,3] <$> [9,8,7]
22:58:14 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `(->) a0' with actual type `[]'
22:58:23 <oerjan> not for the <*>, for the fmap
22:58:24 <shachaf> > [(1+),(2+),(3+)] <*> [9,8,7]
22:58:34 <Bike> that's not what i expected anyway >_>
22:58:38 <shachaf> > getZipList $ ZipList [(1+),(2+),(3+)] <*> ZipList [9,8,7]
22:59:23 <elliott> are you reading the original idioms paper or something
22:59:33 <elliott> > (,) <$> [1,2,3] <*> [4,5,6] -- cartesian product
22:59:35 <lambdabot> [(1,4),(1,5),(1,6),(2,4),(2,5),(2,6),(3,4),(3,5),(3,6)]
22:59:39 <elliott> the applicative has to be this way to match the monad instance
23:00:34 <fizzie> Misread "the original idiot paper".
23:00:52 <elliott> (applicative functors used to be called idioms)
23:00:56 <elliott> (and had a zippy [] instance)
23:01:05 <elliott> (indeed they were invented as a generalisation of zipWith, zipWith3, etc.)
23:01:18 <Bike> "idiom" seems like a bad name
23:02:18 <shachaf> applicative functors seems like a worse name
23:02:27 <shachaf> > map length ["idiom", "applicative functor"]
23:03:02 <Bike> just slap a GUID on everything and be done with it.
23:03:08 <elliott> "applicative functor" doesn't mean all that much to start with
23:03:12 <elliott> (it is actually a strong lax monoidal functor)
23:03:57 <shachaf> i know what strong means: NOTHIN'
23:05:04 <fizzie> I think it's, like, salmon?
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23:30:00 <Sgeo> Maybe there is value in being able to discriminate based on types at runtime
23:30:24 <Sgeo> Spring MVC does that. You make a method that takes arguments of the types you want, and it will be called with what's required
23:30:53 <elliott> why are you learning spring
23:31:10 <elliott> this job sounds awful already
23:31:21 <Bike> fuck how can you be anticonsumerist and elitist with a job! did you even think this through
23:31:44 <elliott> every part of swing's api that i've seen looks exactly like the kind of tired factoryfactory jokes people make about java
23:31:53 <shachaf> BTW MCV = MOBILE CONSTRUCTION VEHICLE
23:32:30 <Sgeo> There might be some factoryfactoryness to Spring, but there seems to be a lot of sugar that hides much of it
23:32:35 <Bike> thanks lambdabot. you're a true friend
23:32:36 <Sgeo> Or, at least some of it. Sometimes.
23:33:25 <lambdabot> shachaf says: edwardk will try to get you addicted to monoids. The first one is always free.
23:34:18 <shachaf> you look like a crowd that needs some puns shoved in your faces
23:35:10 <olsner> oh no, not more funpuns
23:36:05 <Sgeo> 18 lines of Java for what would be 1 line of Haskell
23:36:41 <Bike> 18 lines of perl for what would be one line of sed
23:37:16 <Sgeo> Oh, also, IDEs help
23:37:29 <oerjan> Bike: THAT MAKES NO SENSE HTH
23:37:38 <Sgeo> Although my boss seems to want me to make a Spring MVC project from scratch, or at least ... somewhat
23:37:45 <kmc> 18 lines of Java guiltied to a zegnatronic rocket society
23:37:47 <shachaf> 18 lines of #esoteric for what would be one line of #haskell
23:38:06 <Bike> oerjan: sense or enterprise java beans sense?? LAUGHTRACK
23:38:07 <shachaf> (except in #haskell it would be more like 400 lines)
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23:38:36 <shachaf> 18 lines of cocaine for what would be one line of
23:38:44 <shachaf> uhh, what other drugs come in lines
23:39:00 <kmc> stronger cocaine
23:39:35 <elliott> i think kmc should adopt the middle name "drugs"
23:39:36 <Bike> i can't be an adult yet, i've never even done a line of polonium off a hooker's back
23:39:53 <Bike> keegan "methylenedioxymethamphetamine" c
23:40:17 <kmc> looks like a lizard
23:40:22 * kmc has never taken MDMA
23:40:56 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: somewhere back
23:41:06 <Bike> elliott: so called because they're extracted in the scot mines
23:41:25 <kmc> shachaf: no specific reason, just never wanted to and had the opportunity at the same time
23:41:50 <shachaf> scottish extract: 100% pure essence of scot
23:42:29 <kmc> shachaf: lines of http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008C8SKUY/ref=as_li_ss_tl
23:42:53 <kmc> great review
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23:43:37 * oerjan sees a disturbing amount of latin-1 in the logs
23:44:05 <Sgeo> Ok, I think I missed something important today. There are a lot of people on Facebook with pink equality signs
23:44:06 <Bike> kmc: is there seriously a noticeable difference between 98% and 99% benzocaine
23:44:42 <oerjan> Sgeo: math is gay, m'kay?
23:45:12 <shachaf> Sgeo: umm did you say "something important" and then "people on Facebook"
23:45:17 <kmc> what Phantom_Hoover said
23:45:31 <kmc> math declared "totally gay" by US supreme court
23:45:37 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: clearly polonium
23:46:41 <kmc> Sgeo: the Supreme Court heard oral arguments regarding striking down California's constitutional amendment banning same sex marriage in the state
23:46:44 <Phantom_Hoover> i think benzocaine is a topical local anaesthetic so the polonium probably wouldn't do much unless you ate it or sth
23:46:50 <kmc> they're not expected to issue a ruling for several more months
23:47:00 <kmc> but everyone is flipping out trying to interpret what the justices said today
23:47:19 <kmc> benzocaine is a topical local anaesthetic slash popular adulterant for cocaine
23:47:24 <oerjan> in two months, the us supreme court commits collective suicide under the pressure
23:47:38 <kmc> they are chemically similar and cocaine is also a local anaesthetic and this property is used by customers to test its purity
23:48:46 <elliott> does anyone use cocaine to operate on themselves
23:49:50 <kmc> dunno but it is still occasionally used in medicine
23:50:05 <kmc> that's why it's schedule 2, not schedule 1 like the really dangerous drugs such as heroin and marijuana
23:50:59 <shachaf> imo marijuana should be legal but smoking should be illegal
23:51:02 <Sgeo> What drugs could I simulate in norns?
23:51:03 <Bike> it's an opiate innit
23:51:06 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean i assume there's /some/ reason morphine's used as a painkiller and heroin's used as a drug
23:51:13 <shachaf> because smoking is disgusting
23:51:21 <kmc> Sgeo: and tomorrow (?) they're hearing challenges to DOMA, the federal law which prevents the federal govt from recognizing same sex marriage, and allows states to ignore same sex marriages performed by other states (which otherwise they would be required to recognize under the Full Faith & Credit clause of the Constitution)
23:51:25 <shachaf> i suppose it's already illegal in a lot of places?? and no one cares
23:51:29 <kmc> http://www.bonkersinstitute.org/showpics/bayer1901.gif
23:51:39 <Bike> bonkersinstitute
23:51:41 <kmc> http://wings.buffalo.edu/aru/Bayer-heroin.jpg
23:51:52 <Bike> but yeah opiates were used as painkillers forever, phantom
23:52:01 <Bike> didn't you ever hear about it being marketed to shut up babies
23:52:01 <kmc> they still are
23:52:11 <kmc> it's just we have better ones than heroin now
23:52:14 <kmc> both safer and more powerful
23:52:19 <kmc> (not the same ones)
23:52:28 <Sgeo> I could impede the processing of drives
23:52:50 <Sgeo> But that would make them fail to recognize, say, boredom too
23:52:53 <shachaf> The Cheapest Specific for the Relief of Coughs
23:53:31 <Sgeo> Also it's pretty easy to lower drives, that's kind of boring
23:53:39 <Sgeo> Although a more permanent effect may be interesting?
23:53:45 <Bike> can you simulate rabies
23:54:07 <Sgeo> Depends what you would consider to be acceptably close to rabies
23:54:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, surely the obvious thing to do would be to stimulate some award mechanism
23:54:46 <Fiora> kmc: DOMA affects national law stuff too
23:54:58 <Fiora> oh, nevermind, you mentioned that
23:56:42 <kmc> in Canada you can get opiates over the counter
23:56:46 <Lymia> My school's library server requests a client certificate for some reason.
23:56:46 <lambdabot> Lymia: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
23:56:53 <kmc> Tylenol 1 with 325 mg acetaminophen and 8 mg codeine
23:57:35 <kmc> the acetaminophen ensures that if you take enough to have fun you will also destroy your liver
23:57:41 <Lymia> <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 53m 22s ago: <Lymia> That never /loses/ a single joust <-- the other day i believe i proved that you cannot make a program that can never lose on a particular tape/polarity.
23:57:43 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, it's easy to stimulate the reward system constantly, but I suspect the effects are boring
23:57:47 <Lymia> Qualify that with "given a known hill"
23:57:50 <Sgeo> I would assume the norn would get locked onto one activity
23:57:50 <kmc> drug policy is largely based on harm maximization, i.e. the opposite of harm reduction
23:58:11 <Sgeo> If you're going for random flailing aboutness, then a genetic disorder I made does have that effect in its middle stages
23:58:11 <Fiora> I think they include the acetominpohen here in most prescription versions too
23:58:28 <kmc> yeah I don't think harm maximization is the only reason, it's actually effective
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23:58:34 <Sgeo> The norn starts off normal, then starts trying to do weird things, before eventually sitting doing nothing whatsoever
23:58:49 <Sgeo> And refuse to eat except under mind control
23:58:51 <Fiora> the only time I've tried codeine it made me a bit nauseus and kind of sick
23:58:57 <Fiora> which is I guess not as bad as percoset
23:59:00 -!- copumpkin has joined.
23:59:01 <Fiora> which made me very nauseus and actually sick
23:59:06 <kmc> http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2010/02/the_chemists_war.html
23:59:14 <Sgeo> It's constant stimulation of the punishment pathway
23:59:49 <Sgeo> So, they try normal things because of their instincts, then, they learn that those things are bad. They avoid those and start doing other things that are vaguely related but haven't been punished yet. Eventually everything is punished.
00:00:05 <Bike> kmc: whaaaaat.
00:00:50 <Sgeo> Fun fact: I believe I found a cure for this disease. But I haven't tried it yet.
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00:07:34 <elliott> The Obama administration announced in 2011 that it had determined that section 3 was unconstitutional and, though it would continue to enforce the law, it would no longer defend it in court.
00:08:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, i think there's a great tragedy in the making here
00:08:34 <oerjan> <elliott> hm, does ((a(b{cd}{e}f)%Ng)%M make sense
00:08:52 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, ?
00:09:13 <Phantom_Hoover> you're creating genetic disorders so you can cure them
00:09:38 <Bike> hey i saw that movie once
00:09:44 <oerjan> we _did_ discuss that way back, iirc that could be given meaning but it wouldn't be constant space to implement
00:10:13 <Bike> elliott: the next sentence says the republicans are going to defend it anyway, very nice
00:10:30 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I didn't even realize it was curable until a few days ago
00:10:52 <Sgeo> Had to kill a bunch of norns to work out the exact CAOS involved
00:11:13 <Sgeo> (The documentation for brn: sett isn't very clear imo)
00:12:22 <Phantom_Hoover> even i think this is horrifying, and i've watched children born in a prison get shot to death by my marksdwarves in df
00:12:26 <kmc> elliott: yeah I can't remember what "enforce but not defend" actually means
00:12:38 <kmc> should i play df
00:12:55 <Sgeo> The sacrifice norns all died painlessly. Probably.
00:12:57 <elliott> play a df succession fort with us
00:12:59 <kmc> somebody told me that all programmer should play DF at some point
00:13:06 <kmc> i was really stoned at the time so it sounded like a profound idea
00:13:09 <Sgeo> (I can't say for certain because I was randomly poking around in their brains)
00:13:09 <Bike> sgeo slowly becomes the most adorable Mengele since the anime
00:13:43 <shachaf> Somebody told me that I should under no circumstances play DF.
00:14:18 <elliott> kmc: IMO DF is one of the very best-designed games ever, but it also has a really awful interface, so it depends on your tolerance for that
00:14:23 <elliott> dwarf therapist eases that pain a little bit though
00:14:36 <Bike> elliott: http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lntskdZrNh1qjgqsko1_500.jpg
00:14:52 <Sgeo> Basically, the commands involved let you adjust any floating-point value in the brain
00:15:02 <Sgeo> But the docs weren't totally clear on how to specify which value
00:15:05 <Phantom_Hoover> actually applying any sane principle of design to it would probably ruin it
00:15:07 <oerjan> <Lymia> Qualify that with "given a known hill" <-- okay, although i believe my construction needs only a bounded number of programs to have at least one of them beat anything you put against them on a given tape/polarity. not as few as 50, but maybe no more than a few hundreds.
00:15:31 <Sgeo> So I made a brain that would do something very specific and obvious when a specific value was altered from 1 to 0 (or was it 0 to 1?)
00:15:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well the point is it's not so much designed as is
00:15:52 <Sgeo> So I could try guessing ideas on what exactly was meant, until I found the right spot)
00:16:16 <Bike> you're welcome
00:16:51 <Sgeo> Fun fact: The specific and obvious thing was slapping the hand (which represents the player) non-stop vs. not slapping the hand non-stop
00:19:13 <ion> instance Fun Fact
00:19:48 <shachaf> | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
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00:23:10 <Sgeo> Bloody hell I'm now not sure if Spring even makes sense
00:23:18 <Sgeo> Does it just make the classes it manages singletons?
00:23:31 <Sgeo> As in, great, now you get one instance of the bean that's described/
00:23:34 <elliott> shachaf: do you wait for someone else to talk before finishing it
00:23:49 <shachaf> that way it gets messed up
00:24:32 <kmc> beans beans the musical fruit
00:25:05 <Sgeo> Spring beans != Java beans
00:25:23 <Sgeo> I think I owned JavaBeans for Dummies once
00:25:32 <shachaf> String beans == Green beans
00:26:15 <oerjan> <elliott> (in fact Bike should have already read that chapter before asking about forever) <-- technically forever could be just Applicative too
00:26:22 <shachaf> kmc: If Cale gave (.) its Prelude type would you rejoin #haskell?
00:26:33 <shachaf> We need, like, leverage and stuff, man.
00:26:46 <lambdabot> Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
00:27:12 <elliott> oerjan: in fact I say that a few lines later!!
00:27:51 <Bike> IDE/Theory: elliott is just an extensing time-ghost of oerjan during logreading
00:30:50 <shachaf> what was that story where the person with the time machine was copying stories from a science fiction author in the future as the author was writing them
00:31:45 <Lymia> oerjan, I'll worry about that when those are actually hill competitive :p
00:32:15 <Bike> > (1+) . [4,5]
00:32:15 <Lymia> I'm reasonably certain that 512 is enough-- esp if they have no loop/flow control to abuse
00:33:30 <Lymia> for n in [0, 255], (>)*9(.)*n(-.)*-1 and (>)*9(.)*n(+.)*-1
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00:34:36 * Lymia kicks shachaf in the shin
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00:35:47 <shachaf> 17:35 <Cale> Shin-LaC: Really, it doesn't work differently. There are just some local bindings in scope and some Prelude definitions are hidden.
00:36:15 <Bike> > (1+) Prelude.. [4,5]
00:36:48 <Lymia> > (.) a b c = a (b c)
00:36:48 <Bike> > (Prelude..) (1+) [4,5]
00:36:49 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a0 -> c0' with actual type `[t0]'
00:36:50 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:11: parse error on input `='
00:36:53 <oerjan> Lymia: you need versions starting with + or - to beat maximally fast rushes
00:36:55 <Bike> oh it's P. sensible
00:37:17 <Bike> > (1+) v.. [4,5]
00:37:19 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:7: parse error on input `..'
00:37:27 <Bike> oh right module names have to be capitalized
00:37:29 <Bike> sorry shachaf :(
00:38:30 <oerjan> Lymia: also no waiting sheesh, then you might lose against slower rushes
00:38:56 <Lymia> That's just an outline of the idea. :p
00:39:02 <Lymia> Something like that might stop the system I'm thinking of
00:39:17 <oerjan> <Bike> IDE/Theory: elliott is just an extensing time-ghost of oerjan during logreading <-- plausible
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00:42:14 <shachaf> Hey, this person at the aæeroport is reading _Breakfast of Champions_.
00:42:20 <oerjan> Lymia: it would be _so_ easy to write this if bfjoust syntax weren't ridiculously overlapping with regex syntax.
00:42:22 <shachaf> Remember when I was reading that book? Good times.
00:42:31 <shachaf> I guess I "started a movement" "oops"
00:44:13 <elliott> oerjan should oppose (.)-as-fmap.
00:44:16 <elliott> he helped write the haskell 98 report.
00:44:35 <shachaf> Cale hates Haskell 98 so it won't help.
00:45:17 <Lymia> The goal is to target actual hills, not theoretical "all hills"
00:45:22 <Bike> strict typing is overrated though
00:45:27 <oerjan> Lymia: optional +, (>)*9, (+)*n or (-)*n (n between 0 and 128), and either . + or - at the end in case the opponent defends. 2*129*3 options.
00:45:31 <elliott> shachaf: his name is in the report's acknowledgements
00:45:31 <kmc> lazy typing ftw
00:45:48 <oerjan> Lymia: oh i was writing up my construction
00:45:56 <Lymia> I suspect that's not entirely enough.
00:46:24 <shachaf> elliott: I see an Orjan Johansen.
00:47:09 <Lymia> (+)*5(>)*9(+.)*127+
00:47:30 <shachaf> Both Haskell 98 Reports were revised in August 2001, to incorporate dozens of typographical errors and presentational improvements. A complete list of all changes can be found at http://haskell.org.
00:49:34 <shachaf> haskell 98 report "more like haskell revised in 2001 report"
00:50:02 <Lymia> oerjan, I'm pretty sure that
00:50:17 <Lymia> A similar argument can be made that a program can be made to lose no more than half the rounds.
00:50:35 <Lymia> Or possibly one third.
00:50:57 <oerjan> Lymia: i don't know about that. but you go ahead.
00:51:37 <oerjan> once you don't know the tape length, the opponent's strategy becomes much more complicated to handle.
00:51:54 <kmc> shachaf: 'technical corrigendum'
00:52:08 <Lymia> The idea for targeting actual hills is a greedy search algorithm, effectively.
00:53:05 <Lymia> Instead of treating all strategies separately, work on a sort of "multi-state joust", where you have a long list representing all possible polarities and tape lengths.
00:54:32 <oerjan> Lymia: oh hm my . + - at the end might need a . in front in some cases.
00:54:39 <oerjan> so maybe another doubling.
00:55:23 <Lymia> I think there's a maximum bound of 3^128, at least.
00:55:35 <Lymia> (i.e. every possible string of actions on the flag)
00:57:13 <oerjan> for your construction or mine?
00:57:34 <Lymia> Or, well, any (>)*9suffix
00:57:39 <Lymia> oerjan, well, wait.
00:57:55 <oerjan> it's not necessary with that many.
00:58:10 <Lymia> Let me think for a moment
00:58:27 <oerjan> you just need to ensure that you hit 0 _sometime_, and counteract any action the opponent does in the next step.
00:58:48 <Lymia> There's something notable here.
00:58:58 <Lymia> +(>)*9(+)*1any suffix
00:59:04 <Lymia> That will win against no possible program
00:59:28 <Lymia> In fact, that applies up to 64
00:59:55 <Lymia> I think n only needs to be between 64 and 128
01:00:01 <Lymia> Or, at least, something higher than 0
01:00:15 <Lymia> Since, there's nothing both programs combined can do to bring down the flag to 0 in the shorter values of n
01:00:15 <oerjan> remember that the opponent might do something drastic to their own flag
01:00:44 <oerjan> didn't i just think about that too a while ago.
01:00:46 <kallisti> anyone know of an existing discordian calendar module for Haskell?
01:02:10 <oerjan> Lymia: that's about the limit. it's lower than 64 because the opponent might be changing the flag while i move.
01:03:47 <Lymia> "At least one tape length and at least one polarity"
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01:04:02 <Lymia> You can cut it in half again, by getting rid of polarity inverses-- the hill will have to do that already
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01:05:04 <oerjan> well by my construction _i_ get to choose which length and polarity i win on. in spirit.
01:05:33 <Lymia> (>)*9(+)*n+ == (>)*9(+)*(n+1)
01:05:56 <Lymia> (>)*9(+)*n. == (>)*9(+)*(n-1)+
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01:07:35 <oerjan> ok so no suffix, -, .+, or .-
01:08:23 <oerjan> removing initial + and final .
01:09:53 <Lymia> Initial + might be required, I think.
01:10:07 <Lymia> There's a more elegant way to do it, I think
01:10:12 <oerjan> this is for the (+)*n case. switch + and - for the (-)*n case.
01:10:41 <Lymia> But that doesn't choose a tape length :p
01:11:21 <oerjan> if you want to run of the tap < will do just fine hth
01:11:36 <oerjan> what happened to my keyboard there
01:11:49 <Lymia> If you allow for multiple tape lengths.
01:13:41 <oerjan> why is mezzacotta down
01:32:44 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
01:33:08 <Arc_Koen> !bfjoust trip_draw +>+++[]<(+)*-1
01:33:12 <EgoBot> Score for Arc_Koen_trip_draw: 8.7
01:35:48 <Arc_Koen> !bfjoust trip_draw +>+++[]<(.+)*-1
01:35:53 <EgoBot> Score for Arc_Koen_trip_draw: 10.4
01:42:14 <Arc_Koen> hmm are you telling me that Fiora's time-stopping-mahou-shojo, which got 33, is actually an empty program?
01:50:28 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: well that's what http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/index.php tells me
01:52:01 <Sgeo> How do people stand having full-time jobs?
01:52:06 <Bike> Fiora wrote something that got 33 that fast, huh
01:53:41 <oerjan> Sgeo: they don't. they have their souls replaced with rutabagas after a couple months.
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01:56:15 <kmc> Sgeo: first day didn't go well?
01:56:41 <Sgeo> It's going ... adequately
01:56:45 <Sgeo> And this was my second day
01:57:00 <Sgeo> I just... don't entirely look forward to having no energy outside of work during the work week
01:57:28 <kmc> why no energy?
01:58:03 <kmc> gotta get your 100 W
01:58:27 <Sgeo> Because my sleep cycle is a bit off
01:58:41 <Bike> won't it get less off as you get into the rhythm
01:58:43 <Sgeo> Maybe when that adjusts, I will actually find time for sanity
01:58:49 <oerjan> Sgeo: maybe you are having jet lag due to the change in sleeping cycle? that _should_ fix itself, one hopes. (present company notwithstanding.)
02:05:58 * oerjan knows that's not technically jet lag btw
02:07:16 <oerjan> "The condition of jet lag may last several days until one is fully adjusted to the new time zone, and a recovery rate of one day per time zone crossed is a suggested guideline."
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02:07:38 <oerjan> thank you, Phantom_Hoover
02:08:05 <oerjan> i understand phantoms are very good at recognizing dimensionless quantities
02:09:58 <oerjan> it appears to be more in larger units
02:11:02 <oerjan> "Since 2003, Vietnam has replaced its cotton banknotes with plastic polymer banknotes, which it claims will reduce costs.[10] Many newspapers in the country criticized these changes, citing mistakes in printing and alleging that the son of the governor of the State Bank of Vietnam benefited from printing contracts.[10] The government clamped down on these criticisms by banning two newspapers from publishing for a month and considering other sanctions
02:11:36 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yes i graduated from UNIT
02:11:38 <Bike> other sanctions...
02:12:05 * Phantom_Hoover decides to stop trying to work out how much a ningi is worth
02:14:38 <oerjan> "In present-day Vietnam, because the value of the currency is so small, one đồng could also be understood as one thousand đồng."
02:15:42 * Sgeo sees something like that in some online games
02:16:00 <Sgeo> EVE Online people use a million ISK as the basis for talking about currency, I think
02:16:09 <Bike> inflation, man
02:16:25 <Phantom_Hoover> i wonder if you can actually spend individual eve moneys
02:16:35 <oerjan> huh the iranian currency unit is now the least valued on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Least_valued_currency_unit
02:16:46 <oerjan> the sanctions really hurt
02:16:50 <elliott> now i want a space croissant
02:17:49 <oerjan> `? misspellings of space croissant
02:17:51 <HackEgo> misspellings of space croissant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
02:17:57 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, in the backstory, even 1 ISK makes you incredibly rich compared to the people who live on planets
02:18:13 <oerjan> in space, croissants cannot be misspelled
02:18:23 <Bike> that seems unlikely, economically speaking
02:18:32 <Bike> like that's a ridiculous wealth disparit
02:19:11 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what was that thing you said about EVE's choice of factions when you played the demo?
02:23:10 <elliott> iirc they were all terrible and i picked the anarchocapitalists (i forget why)
02:27:49 <Sgeo> This one quest gives you a quest item called "A Lot of Money"
02:28:43 <Sgeo> But I've read about it
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02:32:15 <kmc> one thousand dong
02:34:17 <Lymia> http://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/1083748?tags=failure
02:37:00 <Bike> Wait, it's not Go?
02:37:13 <Bike> wait duh the black piece is already captured
02:38:22 <Sgeo> It's tagged reversi o.O
02:38:51 <Bike> yeah they're reversi pieces and the position is illegal in go (also who plays go on 8x8)
02:39:13 <Sgeo> Also go is on the lines. I hate how I only just noticed that
02:39:34 <Sgeo> I noticed the black piece with no liberties first
02:39:40 <Bike> the image is tagged "reversi".
02:39:40 <Sgeo> coppro, look at the list of tags
02:40:00 <Sgeo> tagged reversi does sound like an awesome game
02:40:03 <Bike> Danbooru is basically the most successful Semantic Web thing ever
02:40:35 <coppro> I thought you meant the game was called Tagged Reversi
02:43:31 <kmc> spineless tagless reversi
02:46:09 <Bike> what kind of reversi do you usually play, dude
02:55:15 <oerjan> the reverse of this, obviously
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03:08:30 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
03:08:33 <Sgeo> Veracity of slist not confirmed
03:08:41 <Sgeo> Veracity of slist confirmed
03:09:23 <Bike> you should switch to a graded system, to account for veracity confirmation difficulties
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03:36:37 <HackEgo> back: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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04:05:20 <Sgeo> My day is literally impossible. Wake up at 5am, get home at 7pm, 3 hours dinner, 8 hours sleep. There is not enough time for that, it's impossible.
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04:11:34 <kmc> 3 hours dinner?
04:11:42 <kmc> also why do you have to get up at 5am
04:12:49 <Sgeo> It took me ~2 hours to eat dinner tonight, and I ended up not eating much of it
04:13:06 <Sgeo> And I need to force myself to mentally wake up, and get ready
04:13:24 <kmc> good night
04:13:25 <kmc> don't die Sgeo
04:13:33 <kmc> if it takes you 2 hours to eat and you can barely eat then something is wrong
04:13:51 <kmc> lack of energy might have something to do with not eating
04:13:52 <Sgeo> I don't remember it not taking that long
04:13:59 <kmc> why does it take so long?
04:14:02 <elliott> you're blowing my mind here kmc
04:14:13 <Sgeo> Not especially interested in food, I guess.
04:14:25 <Sgeo> Although maybe 1 box of pasta is a bit large of a portion?
04:16:18 <Sgeo> ~800 calories iirc
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04:29:21 <kmc> 800 calories is a pretty standard meal for a lot of people
04:29:27 <kmc> i mean you need like 2000 a day
04:32:14 <Fiora> 800 calories is kind of a big meal
04:39:14 <kmc> i only eat two meals a day
04:40:52 <Fiora> I usually eat a lunchish thing before work and dinner when I get home
04:41:01 <Sgeo> I want to see a doctor over the weekend
04:41:11 <Sgeo> Have had a weird cough this week and face keeps going red
04:41:31 <Bike> "also my diet is used as a torture mechanism in some countries"
04:42:35 <kmc> a Chipotle opened one block from where I work, which resulted in a lot of 1600 calorie meals for a while
04:42:42 <kmc> but to prevent astonishing fatness, I am cutting back
04:42:45 <Fiora> 1600? O_O aren't the burritos like ~800ish at max?
04:42:50 <Fiora> or is that with like chips and a drink
04:42:56 <kmc> burrito + chips and guac
04:43:06 <kmc> + a drink but it's diet
04:43:07 <Sgeo> Maybe I should try Chipotle
04:43:16 <Bike> is that a real abbreviation? "guac", do people talk about "guac"
04:43:32 <Fiora> chipotle is really really good
04:43:38 <Fiora> I can't usually eat a whole burrito though, I prefer the salads
04:43:43 <Fiora> it's like the burrito without all the unhealthy parts
04:44:02 <kmc> Bike: that's how I order it
04:44:13 <kmc> Sgeo: you're in New York?
04:44:37 <kmc> yeah it's hard to get good mexican food in many parts of NY, you might as well eat Chipotle or Qdoba
04:44:46 <Bike> "Haskell provides indexable arrays, which may be thought of as functions whose domains are isomorphic to contiguous subsets of the integers." exactly what an array is.
04:44:47 <kmc> eating Chipotle in San Francisco would be some kind of crime or weird statement
04:44:59 <kmc> Bike: mathematicians *eye roll*
04:45:06 <kmc> Sgeo: where abouts are you living?
04:45:25 <Bike> "Functions restricted in this way can be implemented efficiently"
04:45:57 <kmc> Fiora: yeah, I've been eating the burrito bowl recently, that's like 600 cal as configured, and pretty high protein
04:46:11 <kmc> chips and guac alone is more food than that o_O
04:46:11 <Fiora> I like the salad with guacamole as the dressing basically (plus salsa)
04:46:34 <Fiora> I think it's like ~500-600 calories, not much carbs-wise, and really tasty and filling
04:46:50 <Fiora> but it's a bit of a trek to get to the chipotle here so I usually get panera if I go out
04:46:53 <kmc> Sgeo: like the part that's in NYC, or the further out part?
04:47:00 <kmc> mm panera's decent
04:47:05 <kmc> Sgeo: do you commute on LIRR then
04:47:21 <kmc> maybe tomorrow for lunch I will have just chips and guac
04:47:59 <Sgeo> Yes, but workplace is also on LI
04:48:04 <Bike> did somebody tell me Data.Array was bad? i forget
04:48:05 <Fiora> the chips things at chipotle are huuge
04:48:12 <kmc> yep, I think they're meant to be shared
04:48:22 <Fiora> yeah, I got that feeling too when I saw them
04:48:30 <kmc> i used to get burrito and chips and guac and that was my one meal for the day
04:48:33 <kmc> that was... kind of weird
04:50:37 <kmc> damn it now i'm hungry
04:52:37 <elliott> Bike: haha where is that from
04:53:20 <Bike> elliott: spec for Data.Array
04:53:42 <Bike> also they say that to ensure this efficiency they're values instead of functions
04:57:10 <Bike> "Right and left shifts by amounts greater than or equal to the width of the type result in a zero result. This is contrary to the behaviour in C, which is undefined; a common interpretation is to truncate the shift count to the width of the type, for example 1 << 32 == 1 in some C implementations." i didn't know that.
04:58:40 <Fiora> huh, I've never heard of that particular behavior :o
04:58:51 <Fiora> the two I can remember are "large shift is zero" and "shift is mod 32"
04:59:36 <Fiora> "shl eax, cl" in x86 does "eax <<= cl&31" I think
04:59:59 <Fiora> but "pslld xmm0, xmm1" does xmm0 <<= xmm1 (so it zeroes if it's big)
05:00:31 <Fiora> I discovered this the hard way the other day when I was wondering why my shifts were coming out wrong, and my register had like, {X,X,X,X} in it (where each X was my shift value, 32-bit) instead of {X,0,0,0}
05:00:44 <Fiora> and it actually looked at the entire register O_O
05:00:48 <Fiora> instead of just the low bit
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05:04:35 <Bike> "unsafeLocalState :: IO a -> a" oh baby
05:05:12 <kmc> it's like unsafePerformIO but with stronger (unchecked) preconditions
05:05:24 <kmc> there are some mailing list arguments about whether GHC's implementation should be unsafeDupablePerformIO
05:06:15 <kmc> my neighbors like to practice piano and singing at 1 in the morning
05:06:19 <kmc> not a complaint just an observation
05:06:20 <Bike> good ol mailing list arguments and piano
05:07:12 <kmc> also "It is expected that this operation will be replaced in a future revision of Haskell."
05:07:36 <Bike> standard stable pointers. that's kinda nice.
05:07:58 <elliott> i don't think anyone has ever used unsafeLocalState
05:08:00 <kmc> yup. and ForeignPtr
05:08:10 <elliott> it's kind of weird that all kinds of ptrs are standard but not, like, IORef
05:08:26 <kmc> that is weird
05:08:37 <Bike> the standard contains the phrase "Haskell land", very nice
05:08:51 <elliott> it also refers to getLine as a "function" :(
05:09:18 <Bike> if arrays can be functions so can IO actions, elliott
05:09:32 <elliott> also GHC error messages do this "everything is a function" thing it's awful
05:10:17 <kmc> a lot of the text in the Report and in the base library docs is just poorly written
05:10:57 <kmc> an IO action is a function from a RealWorld where you are confused about IO actions to a RealWorld where you are even more confused about IO actions
05:11:10 <kmc> also it's a monoid
05:11:16 <Bike> is that "RealWorld" like an actual thing because it sounds dumb kind of?
05:11:35 <kmc> RealWorld is invoked in two very very different contexts
05:11:38 <kmc> which people tend to mix up
05:11:43 <Bike> oh christ it is isn't it
05:11:48 <elliott> Bike: GHC implements IO a as State# RealWorld -> (# State# RealWorld, a #)
05:11:53 <elliott> note that this is 99% misleading
05:12:01 <kmc> also it's lies
05:12:07 <Bike> yeah i'm fine with IO just being a thing
05:12:24 <kmc> the other kind of RealWorld is an analogy for IO, type IO a = RealWorld -> (RealWorld, a)
05:12:24 <Bike> it's okay. it's okay, IO. I believe in you, you don't have to prove yourself to me or anyone else.
05:12:28 <elliott> (basically it's like () -> ((), a) except the () and the tuple are erased at runtime)
05:12:34 <elliott> (and it's used so that the compiler doesn't reoder the operations)
05:12:41 <elliott> (under the hood everything is just impure)
05:12:51 <kmc> the analogy looks a lot like the GHC definition but they're totally different
05:13:01 <elliott> let's not tell Bike the stupid state monad analogy for IO
05:13:08 <elliott> he does not deserve the pain
05:13:26 <kmc> the -> in the GHC definition is not the Haskell function type because it's an impure function
05:13:29 <Bike> is this a monad tutorial thing
05:13:37 <kmc> and State# RealWorld is erased at runtime
05:13:43 <kmc> and RealWorld itself has no values, it's only a type tag
05:14:08 <elliott> i just said that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
05:14:12 <elliott> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
05:14:13 <kmc> you said some of it
05:14:18 <elliott> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
05:14:41 <kmc> the RealWorld analogy is bad for a few reasons, one is "the outside world", one is concurrency, but mostly it's just a confusing distraction
05:15:05 <Bike> so why'd you bring it up i don't understand these jokes i'm too noobish help
05:15:17 <kmc> well you asked if RealWorld was a real thing..............
05:15:31 <kmc> these aren't jokes I am just telling you about things that are bad
05:15:34 <Bike> after you mentioned it!
05:15:41 <kmc> that was a joke
05:15:46 <Bike> also "Computation getProgName returns the name of the program as it was invoked. However, this is hard-to-impossible to implement on some non-Unix OSes, so instead, for maximum portability, we just return the leafname of the program as invoked." good standard
05:15:57 <kmc> see it worked!!!!!!!!!!!! a RealWorld where you are confused about IO actions
05:16:06 <Bike> also also are things in IO called "computations" for some reason
05:16:13 <kmc> or in monads generally
05:16:28 <kmc> also I'm super pedantic so I wouldn't say "returns"
05:16:34 <Bike> that seems pointless. i think monads should just be monads. i like monads
05:16:35 <kmc> but like "produces" or "yields"
05:16:47 <elliott> getProgName "ends in" (return progName)
05:16:49 <kmc> Bike: you need a name for the values whose types are made from monads
05:16:55 <elliott> it's more correct than like "succ 3 returns 4"
05:16:59 <kmc> the monad itself is a type constructor
05:17:10 <Bike> "monadic values"?
05:17:11 <kmc> so they get called computations or actions or mobits
05:17:18 <kmc> a little clunky
05:17:21 <elliott> monadic value is sort of a misnomer, though it's high pedantry to say so
05:17:25 <elliott> because the value itself isn't "monadic"
05:17:25 <Bike> i am all about the clunk
05:17:35 <kmc> plus it suggests that monadic values are magically different from the other kind
05:17:37 <Bike> that's pretty high pedandtry, yeah
05:17:37 <elliott> it just happens to have a type of the form (m a) where m is a monad
05:17:40 <kmc> suggests the bad "pure vs impure" analogy
05:18:20 <Bike> do haskell people just either really hate or really love analogies is that it
05:19:28 <kmc> surely you've read the 'monad tutorial fallacy' article
05:19:35 <kmc> if not then do that thing I said
05:20:03 <kmc> an analogy is like a self-referential joke about analogies
05:20:09 <Bike> I probably did at one point. I think for like the past year I knew more about monad tutorials than I did about monads? Maybe?
05:20:42 <kmc> or did i just blow your mind
05:21:06 <Bike> a self-reference self self reference refeselfreferselfreferreferself---refer-self----referererererer
05:21:20 <kmc> that's actually the last page of GEB
05:21:50 <kmc> my friend made shirts that just say "RECURSION" in big letters
05:22:06 <kmc> tends to confuse programmers
05:22:10 <kmc> also other people
05:22:16 <kmc> but for different reasons
05:22:25 <Bike> you know you can get shirts that say "fuck you"
05:22:29 <Bike> i'm just sayin there's an easier way
05:22:51 <kmc> you know you can get http://www.amazon.com/Remote-Controlled-Flying-F-ck/dp/B002P4J2P8
05:23:11 <elliott> i should buy some stupid shirts to then not wear
05:23:22 <Bike> they censored it. that's great
05:23:40 <elliott> i like to imagine it's an actual blur irl
05:23:57 <elliott> the problem is how do you utilise it
05:23:58 <Bike> this fuck is outside your mortal knowledge
05:24:00 <elliott> you can't fly it up to someone
05:24:05 <elliott> because you're trying to say you DON'T give a flying fuck
05:24:08 <elliott> you can't just give it like that
05:24:17 <elliott> hover it where they can see it but not plausibly obtain it
05:24:21 <elliott> hover it outside their window maybe
05:24:30 <Fiora> I am pretty sure I still don't actually understand monads (please don't explain monads to me)
05:24:50 <Bike> a monad is like a box of chocolates
05:24:52 <elliott> we are post-monad tutorial, Fiora
05:25:12 <Bike> I only write tutorials about post-rock lyricless songs mocking the concept of monad tutorials.
05:25:17 <elliott> ps you should read learn you a haskell. except skip the parts about functors because Bike discovered they're terrible?
05:25:20 <kmc> "This is a pretty fun little aircraft. It's not very controllable though... I felt I got my moneys worth before 1 of propellors broke"
05:25:41 <kmc> $25 well spent
05:26:24 <Bike> also i'm actually on the part about monoids right now. so that's happening
05:26:32 <elliott> People generally take this the wrong way when you give it to them, but now that it exists there is a more serious issue: every time I don't show up with one of these to a birthday party I hear about how I didn't give one when I selected my gift.
05:26:41 <kmc> "Useful, but not easy to clean"
05:26:44 <elliott> Bike: you should have no trouble, they are so easy
05:26:44 <Bike> "The first function is mempty. It's not really a function, since it doesn't take parameters,"
05:26:52 <kmc> Bike: owwwww my head
05:26:56 <elliott> i remember lyah being good???? when i read it
05:27:01 <Bike> i'm just going to quote things at you until you die hth
05:27:03 <elliott> i guess i was like 12, but...
05:27:16 <Bike> elliott are you some kind of savant? like, at dying i guess
05:27:28 <Bike> i think when i was twelve i was learning like, qbasic
05:27:42 <Bike> or maybe trying to make my calculator play video games
05:27:49 <Bike> or maybe just dicking around in starcraft WHO KNOWS
05:27:57 <Bike> (that game is hard)
05:28:05 <elliott> i "only" really started learning to program properly when i was ~8
05:28:14 <kmc> i hope Sgeo doesn't die
05:28:31 <elliott> well if the past billion years haven't killed him
05:28:45 <Bike> it'd be nice if he didn't die. that'd e good let's do that
05:30:48 <kmc> i'm so hungry and tired
05:30:59 <kmc> maybe if I sleep now I can get to work at 'not lazy bum' hour
05:31:06 <kmc> 'night all
05:31:14 <Bike> http://s3.amazonaws.com/lyah/smug.png
05:33:33 <elliott> Bike: hey can you pester me to update the wiki tomorrow
05:34:12 <Bike> to edit decipher the voynich manuscript
05:34:37 <elliott> voynich mansucript creeps me the fuck out
05:35:00 <Bike> Have you seen that artificial one based on it? with the alligator fucking?
05:35:38 <elliott> i never forget an alligator-fucking
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06:00:35 <shachaf> 22:35 <KeithW> SHA-256: e74d0d323226046e402dd469a176075fc2013b69b0e67cea49762c957175df46
06:00:48 <shachaf> kmc: Is your hash-changing thing also going to work for IRC?
06:24:32 <elliott> i ahve to do things before sleping
06:24:36 <elliott> but i dont want to do them
06:25:48 <shachaf> elliott: imo if you never sleep youll never have to do them???????
06:34:12 <shachaf> elliott: it's almost midnight hth
06:35:08 <Bike> you've clearly been trapped in A Bad Timezome. imo move to the aleutians.
06:35:51 <shachaf> Mother Night is a strange book.
06:35:54 <elliott> i wonder if my sleep schedule would be improved by moving to a timezone closer to america, so i wouldn't talk on irc so goddamn late.
06:36:22 <shachaf> elliott: imo move to america then make friends in australia hth
06:36:53 <Bike> I live in america and still end up distracted by people online at 3 AM. it's possible americans just suck.
06:37:13 <Bike> also http://s3.amazonaws.com/lyah/smugpig.png
06:44:29 <shachaf> Bike: You should get _Programming in Haskell_ by Hutton and read that instead.
06:44:31 <Fiora> but staying up late is a good thing, it means it's easier to avoid the rays of the fusion death ball that rises during the day
06:44:59 <shachaf> Fiora: You're the only vampire in here, you know.
06:45:08 <shachaf> Even oerjan isn't a vampire.
06:45:51 <Bike> Honestly I'm thinking I should go back to Darwin. His 300 page book about worm shit. He literally wrote 300 pages about worm shit and it's probably better than whatever you just said.
06:45:52 <Fiora> I'm not a vampire :<
06:46:03 <Fiora> just because I am pale skinned doesn't make me a vampire
06:46:05 <Fiora> I don't have fangs
06:46:07 <Fiora> I don't like blood
06:46:11 <elliott> Fiora: i think you'll find the fusion death ball has already risen.
06:46:20 <Bike> Maybe you're some kind of covampire.
06:46:21 * Fiora looks outside. no fusion death ball
06:46:28 <elliott> i am sorry that you live in the wrong place.
06:46:38 <shachaf> elliott: if you don't like blood how come you're made of it? checkmate
06:46:39 <Bike> Well she's not, because she'd be burned alive.
06:46:42 <Bike> You insensitive jerk.
06:46:43 <elliott> there is also snow but it's really shitty snow.
06:47:16 <Fiora> I don't like the taste of it okay :<
06:47:20 <Bike> screaming ten year olds
06:47:26 <Bike> Fiora: why not, it's sweet.
06:47:41 <Bike> It's full of sugars!
06:48:20 <elliott> i like how i was planning to be asleep, like, an hour ago.
06:48:34 <Fiora> it's not full of sugar :<
06:48:53 <Fiora> I mean it's like, what, 80mg/dl?
06:49:08 <Bike> details, details
06:49:09 <Fiora> that means an entire liter has less than a gram of sugar, that's hardly sweet!
06:52:42 <shachaf> I,I garlic is good / vampires are FUD / sugar is sweet / and so is blood
06:54:00 <elliott> that sthe worst poem i've ever heard
06:54:24 <elliott> btw is it just me or is the topic too big
06:54:32 -!- elliott has set topic: new topic | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
06:55:03 <Fiora> I don't think I make a very good vampire really
06:55:06 <shachaf> elliott: imo "ur the worst poem ive ever heard"
06:55:33 <shachaf> Fiora: Do I make a very good Nepeta Leijon?
06:55:40 <HackEgo> Fiora is a freakin' vriskapologist.
06:55:53 <Bike> haha i totally forgot about that
06:56:22 <Fiora> like, I'm not a tall, sexy vampire who fights werewolves, and I'm also not a tiny frill-wearing vampire with a silly hat and colorful wings
06:57:04 <Bike> Maybe we could set up wisdom/Fiora to just quote everything she says she's not.
06:57:04 <elliott> she makes a good point, shachaf.
06:57:05 <shachaf> those don't sound like vampires at all
06:58:52 <Fiora> http://danbooru.donmai.us/data/f4b268396810b642158d07848da004ae.jpg is it wrong that when I think of vampires I think of flandre and remilia first -_-
06:59:22 <Bike> toho return of flander
07:01:10 <Bike> http://danbooru.donmai.us/data/sample/sample-13eb7b5973e4502658981f23bbcb494e.jpg I guess that's vampiric.
07:01:42 <Bike> http://danbooru.donmai.us/data/475bae4fdc58fb9ee34ce4a1e4d1104a.jpg Basically what Fiora looks like.
07:02:10 <Fiora> http://25.media.tumblr.com/762600df4f6d018cb13f43c66da1f995/tumblr_mk99cx9d7L1qg2oejo1_500.jpg I'm more a patchy than a vampire
07:02:25 <Fiora> with liking to stay in the basement and read books and write assem^W^Wuse magic
07:04:35 <Fiora> ..... oh my gosh that pun
07:04:44 <Bike> http://danbooru.donmai.us/data/sample/sample-f31832024306cb103319146d31e72d77.jpg
07:04:48 <Fiora> that was wonderful
07:05:24 <shachaf> You shouldn't call people's puns "wonderful". It makes them uncomfortable.
07:05:35 <shachaf> Try groaning or saying that the pun and/or the person is terrible.
07:05:37 <Bike> perhaps "fun"puns
07:05:51 <Fiora> but I like puns ._.
07:05:53 <Bike> i have horse porn and i'm not afraid to use it
07:06:03 <shachaf> Bike: let's try ygolohcysp
07:06:11 <elliott> Bike: i was actually just about to leave
07:06:17 <elliott> but now it's going to look like i'm leaving because of horse porn
07:06:21 <shachaf> elliott hates me so much that he'll do the opposite of what i say even if he doesn't want to
07:06:30 <Fiora> and bike I don't give people that face :<
07:06:42 <shachaf> 17:51 <shachaf> I thought lambdabot didn't import Numeric.Lens. I guess it was a baseless assumption.
07:06:54 <shachaf> Fiora is missing out on that pun by not being a lens user.
07:06:59 <elliott> goodnight, I hate everything and everyone
07:07:01 <Bike> Fiora: I bet you have the moon pendant though.
07:07:39 <shachaf> Fiora: Anyway, you know what they say: The beauty of the pun is in the Oy of the beholder.
07:08:16 <Fiora> Bike: as much as I am a patchy I don't (I'm really more of an alice though)
07:08:19 <Fiora> I'm not grumpy enough to be patchy
07:09:15 <shachaf> I,I "An alice?" "From the palace." "The alice from the palace --" "-- holds the pellet with the poison."
07:09:44 <shachaf> (I don't know what any of these things are.)
07:09:49 <Bike> http://danbooru.donmai.us/data/b17cf8215d85857686a430451fa9697d.png I can dig it.
07:09:59 <Fiora> why do you always post gory things
07:11:15 <Fiora> http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m46cn5hH2B1qbp2zbo1_1280.jpg http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxwmm07xSo1qevpjfo1_1280.jpg how about more like this alice
07:11:21 <Bike> I thought you liked Danbooru.
07:11:27 <Fiora> not really, it's mostly porn
07:11:42 <Bike> I"m not linking porn!
07:11:53 <Fiora> gore is your idea of porn right? <.<
07:12:04 <Bike> Is Alice known for slander
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07:13:14 <Fiora> and there he goes...
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09:05:44 <Taneb> My school blocks the fancy logs but not the text logs
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09:11:30 <Taneb> It also has a tendency to block only the second page of Homestuck updates
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13:12:47 <fizzie> boily: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `''
13:15:49 <boily> fizzie: there, just for you, an unbalanced parenthesis: （
13:17:50 <fizzie> boily: syntax error near unexpected token `('
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13:18:36 <fizzie> (That was some kind of a freaky giant parenthesis.)
13:19:27 <boily> behold the power of fullwidth characters!
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13:41:17 <fizzie> I have trouble thinking up sensible questions on the topic of mixture models that don't involve estimating their parameters with EM.
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14:43:38 <boily> weird. metasepia suddenly died by itself.
14:47:57 <kmc> cuttlefish don't live very long
14:48:08 <kmc> the babies are born as orphans :/
14:48:29 <kmc> so they don't get a chance to use their intelligence for much in the way of learning or culture
14:48:39 <kmc> and indeed it's somewhat puzzling why they're so smart to begin with
14:50:21 <boily> they taste good, too.
14:50:47 <boily> (deep fried baby cuttlefishes, with a plate of bok choi and a large tsingtao...)
14:52:25 <Fiora> kmc: I think it's to prevent them from taking over the world
14:52:36 <kmc> http://25.media.tumblr.com/d708ec2f87f32813e561608b47a65469/tumblr_mjbqkaCeed1rw5m2lo1_400.gif wub wub wub wub wub NOM
14:53:07 <Fiora> geez, that cuttlefish needs to check its refresh rate
14:53:40 <kmc> error: cuttlefish not synced to vblank
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14:54:37 <Fiora> maybe it's a power phase issue
14:54:43 <Fiora> it's like, a european cuttlefish but it's using american water
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14:56:46 <boily> `addquote <kmc> error: cuttlefish not synced to vblank <fiora> maybe it's a power phase issue <fiora> it's like, a european cuttlefish but it's using american water
14:56:52 <HackEgo> 993) <kmc> error: cuttlefish not synced to vblank <fiora> maybe it's a power phase issue <fiora> it's like, a european cuttlefish but it's using american water
14:57:36 <HackEgo> 992) <zzo38> If you cannot type, then you should learn to type if you want to operate your computer
14:57:42 <HackEgo> 991) <zzo38> I don't think there are any pope with fractional numbers (except something I made up for the Dungeons&Dragons game)
14:57:49 <HackEgo> 990) <zzo38> Papal infallibility means that the pope is allowed to be infallible by himself if he wants to, without requiring a council.
14:57:58 <HackEgo> 989) <Sgeo> I think pastaquote should just quote me
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15:07:44 <kmc> Fiora: haha
15:08:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastequote: not found
15:09:10 <boily> what's the command again to have a nice paste for all quotes?
15:09:18 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.25045
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15:18:54 <Taneb> What was that thingy which wasn't a semigroup but you could subtract two to get a semigroup and add that semigroup onto it
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15:23:46 <Taneb> I think it began with v
15:25:17 <boily> the only potentially relevant entry on wikipedia is "Vertex operator algebra".
15:25:30 <boily> and/or "Von Neumann algebra".
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16:10:35 <coppro> damn, algebraic graph theory is weird
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17:12:07 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/json", line 4, in <module> \ data = json.loads(sys.stdin.read().decode('utf-8')) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/json/__init__.py", line 310, in loads \ return _default_decoder.decode(s) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/json/decoder.py", line 346, in decode \ obj, end
17:12:24 <boily> `translatefromto fr en ça marche tu encore ou bien python a flanché entretemps?
17:12:27 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/json", line 4, in <module> \ data = json.loads(sys.stdin.read().decode('utf-8')) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/json/__init__.py", line 310, in loads \ return _default_decoder.decode(s) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/json/decoder.py", line 346, in decode \ obj, end
17:12:44 <HackEgo> 2013-03-27 17:12:41: <Taneb> `seen Taneb ever
17:13:04 <HackEgo> 2012-02-15 17:21:48: <Taneb_> Not tonight, got a party
17:13:44 <Taneb> It wasn't the UV rave where I fell asleep
17:16:40 <Gregor> Something about grepping the logs to implement `seen is brilliantly retarded.
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18:22:32 <Taneb> I need to stop procastinating
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18:25:48 <boily> Taneb: use the ten-minute-rule. without any clock, timer, chronograph or time display, just start doing the task at hand while thinking "only for ten minutes, then I'll stop".
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18:40:29 <mroman> You don't get anything done?
18:40:44 <mroman> I'd stop after two minutes :)
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18:42:39 <boily> mroman: the intent here is that floating time perception is very bad, and you just do what you have to do.
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19:21:10 <fizzie> :hi is a purely symbolic greeting.
19:22:41 <boily> as the old klingon proverb goes, "olen nukahtaa tuolissani."
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19:41:00 <oerjan> <shachaf> Even oerjan isn't a vampire. <-- shockingly, despite the skin color.
19:43:39 <fizzie> Do you SPARKLE? (Actually, I shouldn't probably try making any Twilight references, all I know about it is other people's stupid jokes.)
19:43:57 <metasepia> sparkle definition: to throw out sparks.
19:44:27 <metasepia> vampire definition: the reanimated body of a dead person believed to come from the grave at night and suck the blood of persons asleep.
19:44:45 <fizzie> I didn't know they specialized in persons asleep.
19:44:56 <metasepia> umpire definition: one having authority to decide finally a controversy or question between parties.
19:45:20 <fizzie> The Umpire State Building.
19:46:14 <fizzie> Vimperator is some kind of a Vim-alike thing in some other thing, right?
19:47:58 <boily> vimperator is a firefox extension that vims it. it was forked some time ago into pentadactyl.
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20:20:58 <oerjan> <Bike> "The first function is mempty. It's not really a function, since it doesn't take parameters,"
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20:21:29 <oerjan> is there something like the seven deadly sins of haskell, where calling a non- -> value a function is one of them?
20:21:52 <elliott> oerjan: the report does it :(
20:21:55 <Taneb> Is a value of type Endo Int a function?
20:21:59 <oerjan> i guess it would be hard to get it down to seven
20:22:03 <Taneb> How about Kleisli [] Int Char
20:22:07 <oerjan> elliott: i don't see how that is an argument.
20:23:07 <oerjan> Taneb: hey if you church encode everything...
20:23:32 <oerjan> hm i guess the church encoding of () is actually not a function.
20:23:41 <Taneb> Is it possible to church encode a finite enum
20:23:47 <elliott> oerjan: it's a -> a, isn't it
20:24:01 <Taneb> elliott, I think so
20:24:06 <augur> elliott: can i get an acceptability judgement on a sentence form you?
20:24:07 <oerjan> elliott: no, that would be data A = A A
20:24:26 <elliott> oerjan: wait, what is the encoding of () then.
20:24:30 <elliott> data A = A A is (a -> a) -> a i think
20:24:39 <augur> elliott: John wrote a story --- and Frank tried to find a documentary --- about the Romans yesterday
20:24:52 <oerjan> hm maybe you are right about that
20:25:26 <oerjan> ok i guess a -> a is logical
20:25:36 <elliott> augur: unacceptable because the use of "---" for em dashes is sin. it seems acceptable to me, a little awkward perhaps, probably better with commas in place of the em dashes?
20:26:11 <oerjan> Either x y is (x -> a) -> (y -> a) -> a
20:26:59 <oerjan> elliott: i guess Void is what's actually forall a. a
20:27:28 <elliott> oerjan: you can think of it like
20:27:37 <elliott> (Void -> a) -> a =~ forall a. a
20:27:43 <elliott> (() -> a) -> a =~ forall a. a -> a
20:27:53 <elliott> ((x,y) -> a) -> a =~ forall a. (x -> y -> a) -> a
20:28:56 <oerjan> elliott: well what i actually did think here was that () is the unit of the (x,y,...) construction, so it should still have the \f -> , while Void is the unit of Either x (Either y ...) so becomes just a when you remove all the (v -> a) terms
20:30:15 <elliott> but in general AFAIK, church encoding is just rewriting forall a. (thetype -> a) -> a until it doesn't mention anything but variables and (->) any more
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20:34:13 <augur> elliott: yeah, just say it out loud, i dont care about punctuation, just the sentence/timing
20:35:09 <elliott> yeah, it's fine enough to me
20:35:26 <elliott> probably wouldn't phrase it like that myself, though
20:35:40 <augur> church encoding is just fold!
20:37:18 <augur> and reynolds encoding is just case
20:37:24 <augur> i think its reynolds encoding, right?
20:38:02 <boily> ~duck reynolds encoding
20:38:13 <augur> whats the other one
20:38:33 <shachaf> elliott: are you thinking of boehm-berarducci encoding.............
20:38:41 <augur> i wrote a blog post about this at some point :P
20:38:57 <augur> or started to anyway
20:40:26 <boily> ~duck scott encoding
20:40:26 <metasepia> In computer science, Scott encoding is a way to embed inductive datatypes in the lambda calculus.
20:41:56 <augur> metasepia: indeed!
20:42:20 <augur> basically, scott encoding is just pre-applying case to everything
20:43:12 <elliott> http://okmij.org/ftp/tagless-final/course/Boehm-Berarducci.html
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20:44:06 <augur> scott encoding only works if you dont have universe levels, btw.
20:44:15 <augur> with levels it becomes a huge pain in the ass
20:44:55 <oerjan> <Taneb> What was that thingy which wasn't a semigroup but you could subtract two to get a semigroup and add that semigroup onto it
20:45:14 <oerjan> if you mispled "group" then that is, hm what was it again
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20:46:42 <augur> http://wellnowwhat.net/Programming/ScottEncodingsExplained.lhs
20:46:51 <augur> theres my pre-posted blog post on it
20:47:04 <oerjan> apparently torsor are also easy http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/torsors.html
20:47:23 <augur> i was actually going to rewrite part of it because some of my explanation can be replaced with something more straightforward
20:54:23 <oerjan> Taneb: C pointers are torsors, i think, except sometimes things are undefined.
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20:54:48 <Taneb> oerjan, my mind's archetypical torsor is times
20:55:22 <Taneb> Like, I can subtract Tuesday Lunchtime from Wednesday Suppertime
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20:55:34 <Taneb> And get a day and 6 hours or so
20:55:52 <oerjan> hm is time being torsor the same as saying physics is time invariant
20:56:30 <oerjan> and thus connected to energy conservation by noether's theorem
20:56:38 <Taneb> And you can add a day and 6 hours to Wednesday Suppertime and get... Friday "why am I awake" time
20:57:04 <oerjan> Taneb: it all gets messed up when you include months and years though
20:57:50 <Fiora> I thought physics is only cpt-invariant
20:57:51 <Taneb> They're just days multiplied by almost constants
21:00:01 <Vorpal> <oerjan> Taneb: C pointers are torsors, i think, except sometimes things are undefined. <-- err how?
21:00:22 <oerjan> Vorpal: you can subtract C pointers to get integers...
21:01:02 <Vorpal> oerjan, but fairly limited, I wouldn't call it just "sometimes" things are undefined.
21:01:06 <Vorpal> Most of the time they are
21:01:15 <augur> elliott: your feedback would be appreciated. :)
21:01:19 <oerjan> Fiora: that's switching _sign_ of time. i'm talking about adding a constant to it.
21:01:23 <Vorpal> oerjan, only if your pointers are already constructed from the same object
21:01:33 <Vorpal> then and only then can you substract them
21:01:40 <augur> Fiora: physics has lots of symmetries
21:02:09 <oerjan> Vorpal: your pedanticness is off the charts, hth
21:02:17 <kmc> there's some theorem about every conservation law is based on a symmetry
21:02:25 <augur> kmc: noethers theorem
21:02:26 <Vorpal> oerjan, also I never remember what hth means
21:02:31 <augur> which oerjan mentioned
21:02:35 <Taneb> Vorpal, hope this helps, hth
21:02:55 <olsner> I thought it meant "happy to help"
21:05:12 <oerjan> Taneb: 1 month and 5 days from now is 2 may. 5 days and 1 month from now is 1 may.
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21:06:09 <Taneb> They aren't the same kind of month
21:06:52 <HackEgo> Today is Sweetmorn, the 13th day of Discord in the YOLD 3179
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21:15:18 <oerjan> Taneb: well of course, but that means you cannot include number of months in your differences and expect things to work out.
21:15:32 <Taneb> Unless you standardize the length of a month
21:16:04 <Taneb> A month is 30.434375 days
21:16:20 <metasepia> A month is a unit of time, used with calendars, which was first used and invented in Mesopotamia, as a natural period related to the motion of the Moon; month and Moon are cognates.
21:16:30 <boily> a month is Mesopotamia.
21:17:28 <Taneb> Measure time in seconds, because that's the SI unit and whatnot
21:18:42 <Taneb> class Group (TG t) => Torsor t where type TG t; add :: t -> TG t -> t; sub :: t -> t -> TG t
21:20:19 <Taneb> With instances for Ptr and UTCTime
21:21:38 <Taneb> Would that be about right?
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21:26:57 <GOMADWarrior> here the interpreter in lua http://bpaste.net/show/kidIoH7vfJlDUvEXPzdd/
21:28:12 <Taneb> The language reminds me a little of ZOMBIE
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21:31:58 <oerjan> oh hm i think there may actually be a trick to the previous xkcd http://xkcd.com/1190/
21:32:07 <oerjan> i'm sure it looked differently before
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21:32:29 <Taneb> oerjan, yeah, it was changing every half hour or so
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21:36:27 <tswett> Imo iirc it's "this" hth.
21:38:18 <tswett> GOMADWarrior: hm. The keywords sound entertaining.
21:39:08 <tswett> I'd say yeah, go ahead.
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22:55:36 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: where has the guy gone :(
22:55:46 <Arc_Koen> there was also a girl much earlier
22:56:07 <Arc_Koen> mouseover text is still "wait for it" though
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22:56:26 <oerjan> um the point is it changes, because it's about time. hth.
22:57:01 <kmc> http://xkcd.aubronwood.com/
22:57:24 <Arc_Koen> oh, I missed the very ebginning
22:57:52 <kmc> i still think the last frame will be goatse
22:58:02 <kmc> think / hope
22:59:53 <Arc_Koen> it's started zooming out, apparently
23:00:04 <Arc_Koen> I'm guessing we're gonna see the whole planet earth after a while
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23:05:00 <fizzie> Ooh, that link is much fancier than the explainxkcd list I've used.
23:05:55 <fizzie> (They just have a list of links.)
23:06:55 * Lymia sits on fizzie's lap
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23:12:28 <fizzie> Well, that was apropos nothing.
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23:13:16 <fizzie> (Or is there an "of" in that idiom?)
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23:13:43 <olsner> fizzie: if you're lucky, Lymia might be harmless
23:14:25 <fizzie> That sounds unlikely. Or am I thinking of Lamia?
23:14:48 <olsner> I have no idea what you're thinking of
23:15:35 <olsner> re apropos, I think it's used on its own like that
23:20:34 <olsner> apparently you can use it as an adjective too, as "that was not very apropos" or "that was malapropos"
23:20:40 <fizzie> Yes, I agree in the general case, but Wiktionary seems to suggest that "apropos of nothing" is a phrase: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/apropos_of_nothing
23:21:36 <Lymia> Why would that be?
23:22:16 <olsner> The Apropos of Nothing
23:23:27 <fizzie> The +3 Apropos of Nothing.
23:24:57 <Arc_Koen> common guys there was a fancy accent on the a :(
23:25:16 <Fiora> Lymia: they must be jealous of your jousting skills :p
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23:25:29 <Lymia> Lymia's not that good~
23:25:33 <olsner> Arc_Koen: I doubt there is one in English
23:26:56 <olsner> looks like english is lacking the noun form of apropos
23:28:47 <Arc_Koen> in french "à propos" are two words
23:33:49 <Sgeo> Going to write a bit of Haskell code inspired by something I saw in Spring
23:34:06 <tswett> http://ducklingsinbowls.tumblr.com/
23:34:08 <Sgeo> It's probably useless but frustratingly close to something that already exists
23:34:26 <tswett> Much Apropos About Nothing.
23:35:19 <Sgeo> I get to do real work tomorrow! Probably!
23:35:54 <oerjan> Sgeo: it's probably a cofree comonad hth
23:36:03 <tswett> Cool. What sort of work?
23:36:24 <Sgeo> Probably looking at code, don't know if I'll be given any tasks that involve changing it
23:37:37 <Sgeo> I want to write foo :: String -> Int -> IO (), and then magic foo will see that I'm asking for a String and an Int, and do IO stuff to get a String and an Int
23:37:48 <Sgeo> I know the basic approach I'm going to take, I think
23:38:01 <tswett> Hey, can someone create an algorithm that implements this behavior? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fCzWBbXgNttQEcw07d5-fwMB0cv9SFRClsi_fhId4NU/edit?usp=sharing thx
23:39:13 <elliott> Sgeo: class Magic a where magic :: a -> IO (); class Obtain a where obtain :: IO a; instance Magic (IO a) where magic = void; instance (Obtain a, Magic r) => Magic (a -> r) where magic f = obtain >>= magic . f?
23:39:55 * Sgeo was kind of hoping to work it out himself. Although didn't quite look at what you did yet
23:40:08 <tswett> "If there exists a set of bricks such that for each brick in the set, the brick directly below it (if any) is either in the set, or slated to move forward; there does not exist a brick in the set that presses a brick that is neither in the set nor slated to move forward; and every brick in the set is pushable forward, then all bricks in all such sets are slated for movement forward."
23:40:12 <tswett> My, what an excellent sentence.
23:40:29 <Sgeo> The Magic (IO a) should have magic = id I think
23:40:40 <Sgeo> Oh, only if magic :: a -> IO a
23:41:00 <elliott> you need a type family / fundep if you want to preserve the result type
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23:42:05 <GOMADWarrior> is there a language where you can define all the reserved keywords?
23:42:28 <Sgeo> There are languages with no reserved keywords
23:43:34 <oerjan> GOMADWarrior: istr scheme has no reserved keywords
23:44:00 <Sgeo> I think special forms count as reserved keywords
23:44:01 <oerjan> although you may have trouble replacing all of them
23:44:13 <Sgeo> Tcl has no reserved keywords
23:44:15 <oerjan> Sgeo: you can redefine them
23:44:35 <oerjan> and defining new ones is just macros
23:45:56 <oerjan> iirc you cannot rely on being able to use the original meaning of a keyword if you redefine it, though
23:45:57 <tswett> Forth has no reserved keywords.
23:46:47 <elliott> GOMADWarrior: International Standardised Technology Report Scheme
23:46:59 <elliott> it's an old language from the 70s.
23:47:23 <elliott> you can read about it in the (International Standardised Technology) Reports on the Algorithmic Language Scheme.
23:53:46 <tswett> I thought it was International Standard Technical Report.
23:54:14 <elliott> the ISTR organisation renamed to that in the 80s to modernise
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23:59:48 <fizzie> oerjan: I think it's slightly difficult to redefine define-syntax, because "it is an error for a definition or a syntax definition to shadow a syntactic keyword whose meaning is needed to determine whether some form in the group of forms that contains the shadowing definition is in fact a definition"; (define define 3) is mentioned as an illegal example because of that. (But possibly you could ...
23:59:54 <fizzie> ... be clever about it.)
00:00:50 <kmc> qoppa has no reserved words and no special forms
00:01:47 <oerjan> fizzie: i recall my impression of that was that it prevented you from redefining define-syntax as another macro, but not as an ordinary function...
00:02:46 <fizzie> oerjan: Right. In any case, it's a kind of a restriction.
00:02:56 <kmc> and only one thing in the default environment that's special, the rest of the default env is just basic data types and IO and stuff
00:03:18 <kmc> well 1-3 things depending on how you count
00:04:53 <fizzie> I'd guesstimate that PostScript also has no reserved words, though haven't checked.
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00:31:41 <shachaf> did you wake up feeling horrible and also guilty
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01:03:57 <shachaf> Hey, this theatre has a "Casting Coördinator"
01:06:52 <Sgeo> Why does my workplace have a theater?
01:12:28 <kmc> i think you're in a better position than us to answer that question
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01:13:23 <oerjan> !c printf("%d", 2 * -2);
01:13:26 <Sgeo> There's dry cleaning there, I don't know why
01:13:31 <Sgeo> It's kind of nice, that floor
01:13:40 <Sgeo> And then where I work feels so... stuffy in comparison
01:13:46 <Sgeo> It's kind of weird
01:14:21 <Sgeo> Also knowing that everyone I see and meet works for the same company (kind of)
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01:15:53 <kmc> in Archer the spy HQ has a secret entrance in a dry cleaner's
01:15:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, are you sure this isn't one of those companies you're expected to never leave
01:16:47 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I don't know what their views are on that sort of thing
01:17:11 <tswett> I think most companies allow you to go home in the evenings.
01:17:46 <tswett> Maybe a good rule of thumb would be that if the work day is over, you're allowed to leave.
01:17:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course, but some of them give you all these nice facilities, I mean you can go home to your crummy apartment, if you feel like it.
01:18:16 <Sgeo> Oh, I see what you meant
01:18:26 <Sgeo> I thought you meant never leave as in, stay at the same job forever
01:18:28 <tswett> Some workplaces, although I think not many, have dormitories.
01:18:37 <Sgeo> I'd love a workplace with a dormitory
01:18:50 <tswett> I'd love a college with a dormitory. :|
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01:20:06 <Sgeo> I'd love to have dormed in college :|
01:20:14 <Sgeo> The college had a dorm, I just never dormed
01:27:23 <tswett> Which is to say, I'd love to be in one of the dorms at this college.
01:28:06 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: I guess dormitories are bedrooms that do not have their own separate bathrooms and kitchens.
01:29:34 <tswett> I suppose the distinction between a dormitory and an apartment must be that renting an apartment involves renting the bathroom and kitchen in it as well.
01:30:17 <tswett> GOMADWarrior: in what language?
01:30:44 <kmc> i think in the US, "dorm" is a pretty general term for school-affilitaed housing
01:31:02 <Sgeo> tswett, I think one of the dorms at my college had bedrooms that had separate bathrooms, and the other buildings didn't
01:31:08 <tswett> I guess that's true. I briefly lived in a "dorm" that was actually an apartment.
01:31:11 <kmc> shared bathrooms and kitchens are common but not universal
01:31:21 <tswett> Or maybe it was actually an "apartment-style dormitory" or something.
01:33:22 <kmc> we had houses, house-affiliated 'off-campus' housing, and unaffiliated 'off-campus' housing
01:33:38 <kmc> and 'off-campus' doesn't necessarily mean anything geographically, one of them was right in the middle of campus
01:33:59 <tswett> GOMADWarrior: well, "how to make lazy evaluation" is too vague a phrase to permit a meaningful answer.
01:34:04 <shachaf> does "houses" mean houses or does it mean something else
01:34:06 <tswett> Why do you want to make lazy evaluation?
01:34:11 <kmc> the rooms ranged from private bedroom with private bathroom, to three people in a bedroom with shared bathroom
01:34:28 <kmc> shachaf: else
01:34:35 <GOMADWarrior> i'm reading the wiki, it says Lazy is unimplemented
01:34:44 <GOMADWarrior> I was wondering if it'd be hard to implement it
01:35:06 <shachaf> kmc: how many gentlemen on the billiard-table
01:35:13 <kmc> i... do not kno
01:35:38 <tswett> GOMADWarrior: well, the specification is unfinished.
01:35:49 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, it's pretty much the same here, there are a bunch of residencies on campus which you stay in for first year, then after that you have to find your own accomodation, usually in university-owned housing in the surrounding towns.
01:35:49 <tswett> So it's kind of impossible to implement.
01:36:31 <kmc> that is common in the US as well
01:36:46 <GOMADWarrior> but its possible to just make what is specified
01:36:50 <elliott> i don't quite get this special-casing of first year
01:36:59 <kmc> Caltech is unusual in that non-freshmen actually want to live in the dorms, and there isn't enough space
01:37:04 <kmc> so 2nd year is the most common year off campus
01:37:24 <kmc> elliott: well a) it's hard to line up an apartment if you've just moved to the city, b) it helps you meet people
01:37:42 <shachaf> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/Euro-comic-sans.png
01:37:50 <kmc> (b) was a really big deal for us because of the byzantine procedure for sorting frosh into houses
01:38:07 <shachaf> Earlier versions of Comic Sans had an eye in the Euro sign. This was later removed because "The EU was going to sue us over that."[5]
01:38:23 <elliott> it mainly just seems like a whole lot of infrastructure to only be used for a single year, but of course that's from the perspective of one person
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01:38:44 <kmc> they don't burn down the buildings after 1 year elliott
01:38:46 <kmc> they reuse them
01:39:00 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, when you're getting a house you generally get together with a group of 4 or 5 other people you know you can avoid strangling for the next year.
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01:39:15 <shachaf> kmc: wow are these things run by hippies or what
01:39:19 <elliott> kmc: oh that explains everything
01:39:23 <kmc> what hippies shachaf
01:39:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Which obviously you can't do in first year (I also completely failed to sort it out).
01:39:41 <elliott> kmc: i think it would be quite cool if a university burned down its first-year accommodation every year
01:39:46 <elliott> like some kind of weird fucking tradition
01:39:57 <shachaf> elliott: With the students inside, I hope?
01:39:58 <tswett> GOMADWarrior: well, try evaluating Lazy on paper and see if you can figure out all the patterns, or something.
01:39:59 <elliott> the first years symbolically get to start the fire
01:40:11 <shachaf> Maybe with the last-years inside.
01:40:17 <elliott> and it is tradition to leave at least one personal belonging in the building at the time
01:40:19 <kmc> elliott: we kind of did that
01:40:28 <shachaf> The bonus is that if they're inside the building, any student can be a last-year!
01:40:42 <kmc> they were going to start extensive renovations after my freshman year
01:40:47 <kmc> so we kind of trashed the place on the way out
01:41:03 <kmc> on the last day, four houses independently decided to have huge bonfires
01:41:34 <kmc> also we spent about a month constructing reinforced concrete & steel plate fortifications in one of the rooms
01:41:48 <kmc> in order to have another team of students break in using power tools and see how long it took them
01:41:53 <kmc> but actually that was a yearly tradition
01:42:38 <kmc> http://www.gdbg.org/traditional_events.shtml#hellride
01:42:58 <Phantom_Hoover> my corridor is a quarter chinese exchange students who keep to themselves, and the rest of us basically gave up on any meaningful social interactions in the first weekend
01:44:01 <kmc> http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~blacker/history/ancient/hr-96.html
01:45:10 <Bike> ancient indeed
01:45:20 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: :/
01:54:10 <kmc> fucking vim, be sure not to hit any number keys immediately before entering insert mode
01:54:42 <Phantom_Hoover> will that actually overwrite anything or just take forever to undo
01:55:14 <oerjan> it _will_ make lots of copies, however
01:55:19 <kmc> if you type 6i and then insert some stuff, it will insert it 6 times
01:55:37 <kmc> you don't see the copies until you complete the i command with Esc
01:56:06 <kmc> and you can only undo it as a unit
02:02:42 <kmc> what is that
02:02:57 <oerjan> undo, then put from the last insertion register
02:03:10 <kmc> i don't know fancy vim things such as these
02:03:14 <kmc> what is an insertion register
02:03:34 <oerjan> it's a "last insertion" register
02:04:37 <oerjan> i recalled there were registers for (several last) deleted items, so i figured there might be one for inserted as well
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02:05:27 <kmc> ed/vim is an esolang, discuss
02:05:36 <oerjan> no contest, your honor
02:09:52 <oerjan> oh another method which frequently works is to yank text across undo/redo history
02:10:33 <oerjan> since undo and redo only logs actual text changes, or thereabouts
02:11:20 <oerjan> i sometimes use this when i regret having deleted something a while ago
02:11:21 <kmc> hm I suppose i might make good use of <numbers>p even if <numbers>i is mostly a nuisance
02:11:54 <oerjan> i sometimes use <numbers>o or O to open many blank lines at once
02:12:53 <oerjan> mostly in combination with the ^V rectangle editing stuff
02:13:19 <oerjan> (actually ^Q on windows)
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02:20:31 <kmc> delete and paste?
02:21:06 <oerjan> yes, but look at what it actually does
02:22:51 <shachaf> kmc: it's "insert command" not "insert mode" hth
02:23:13 <kmc> ...is probably a vim command too
02:24:04 <oerjan> if the . makes sense between them, i don't know
02:24:43 <oerjan> looks like the . cancels the c
02:25:10 <shachaf> Like ci<something> and ca<something>
02:25:13 <oerjan> . alone is repeat last command
02:25:28 <oerjan> ok i don't know those yet
02:26:21 <kmc> is there a RPG where you learn vim... wait, yeah there is
02:26:26 <Lymia> (or is that, heaven forbid, a primitive)
02:26:32 <Lymia> Without invoking sort primitives?
02:26:43 <kmc> does %sort shell out to /usr/bin/sort
02:26:51 <kmc> istr it's very easy to pipe the current selection through external command
02:26:56 <oerjan> no. not in windows at least.
02:27:05 * Sgeo decides to troll #spring a bit
02:27:53 <shachaf> :%!sort -R # as a last resort
02:28:42 <oerjan> Lymia: you can probably write a vim script for it
02:31:49 <oerjan> oh right ci/ca are c + text object selections
02:31:54 <oerjan> never used those afair
02:32:38 <Sgeo> I think a language based on Java modified to work better with Spring and the bean concept would be nice.
02:32:55 <Sgeo> As it is, JavaBeans (not so much Spring beans) break encapsulation horribly IMO
02:35:15 <oerjan> ooh, those text object selections could be more precise than % in many cases
02:35:45 <oerjan> and support many more delimiters
02:36:37 <shachaf> oerjan: how do you delete a ( and its matching ) plz
02:40:25 <oerjan> i still haven't found a command for that. i needed it a lot when writing my fueue programs, and i ended up just going to the ), appending a space, going to the matching (, delete, going to end of Word, delete, which depended on not having any space inside.
02:40:56 <oerjan> someone said there was a script for it, though.
02:41:05 <shachaf> You can insert some other character instead.
02:41:39 <oerjan> well yes, but searching to end of Word is just a single character (E)
02:42:05 <oerjan> while another character requires /<char><return>b
02:42:36 <oerjan> oh i was just about to wonder if there is a shortcut
02:43:07 <oerjan> ooh, t<character> is even better
02:43:24 <shachaf> f puts on you on the character, which is what you need for pressing x.
02:44:23 <oerjan> i was assuming )<char> but i guess <char>) also works
02:45:22 <shachaf> Hmm, I forgot about the deleting ) part.
02:45:52 <Sgeo> There's a @NotNull annotation in Java 8
02:46:20 <Sgeo> Oh, there isn't one except in 3rd party libraries
02:48:38 <oerjan> shachaf: oh i found something: the ]) command
02:49:29 <oerjan> it appears to work precisely for this
02:50:29 <shachaf> oerjan: what about deleting [ and matching ] .............
02:51:05 <oerjan> good question, why are only () and {} supported
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03:08:07 <elliott> kmc: have you considered changing your name to kmc
03:09:33 <elliott> i think it may be a wise career move
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03:45:31 <Sgeo> JavaBeans destroy the good of Java, imo
03:46:04 <Sgeo> (Well, not all of them. Ones that just serve as plain old data are fine by me)
03:49:44 <kmc> i don't mean this as a snark but in your view, what is the good of Java?
03:49:52 <kmc> also are you JavaBeaning at work?
03:55:36 <Sgeo> I think the ability to have private implementation that can't be set willy nilly is not a bad thing
03:55:50 <Sgeo> Also I like checked exceptions, or at least the concept, but that's not relevant
03:56:00 <Sgeo> Spring MVC. Not as bad as JavaBeans I guess
03:56:13 <Lymia> Checked exceptions is only bad as part of an API...
03:58:36 <Sgeo> Suppose you have a JavaBean that, in a DI style way, takes in an object that it relies on to do some service
03:58:57 <Sgeo> That object would probably be passed in via a public method, setWhatever()
03:59:04 <Sgeo> But now clients of that JavaBean can also use setWhatever()
04:02:42 <kmc> i would say solve this with Moar Abstraction
04:02:59 <kmc> a FooBean is constructed from a FooBeanConfiguration object which you can setWhatever on
04:03:06 <kmc> but the FooBean itself will only use that at construction time
04:03:17 <kmc> i believe this is a common pattern in java although i forgot its Official Pattern Name
04:03:43 <Sgeo> Factory pattern?
04:05:06 <Sgeo> Or is that something else
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04:06:59 <shachaf> Sgeo: What's the Ada solution to this problem?
04:07:55 <Sgeo> Don't design major specs that ignore features and design of the language and replace those with complexity?
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04:11:13 <kmc> fuck, if I say "AES-NI instructions" then nerds are going to make fun of me for 'redundant acronym'
04:11:37 * Fiora looks in, sees SSE
04:11:37 <kmc> because when I read "AES-NI" i totally spell it out in my head as "Advanced Encryption Standard -- New Instructions"
04:11:52 <kmc> i'm going to put some AES-NI example programs on GitHub soon
04:11:54 <kmc> very simple
04:12:04 <shachaf> AES AES-NI New Instructions
04:12:20 <kmc> maybe i'll lampshade it with a footnote
04:12:29 <elliott> ^^^ I HAVE THE SOLUTION TO YOUR PROBLEMS
04:15:00 <shachaf> is "ATM machine" an americanism
04:15:25 <kmc> i think ATM is an americanism
04:15:45 <kmc> elsewhere they're cashpoints or bankomats or geldautomats or something
04:16:15 <elliott> i think of em as atms because internet
04:16:34 <Bike> "-mat" is the best
04:16:46 <shachaf> Oh, apparently in Hebrew each bank calls them something else or something?
04:16:48 <Bike> i guess it's from "automate"? who even cares it's awesome
04:16:48 <kmc> käteisautomaatista?
04:17:10 <kmc> Bike: yeah http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automat
04:17:16 <kmc> these are the best
04:17:25 <shachaf> Bike: It's "omat", not "mat", isn't it?
04:17:50 <Fiora> kmc: I guess there's system libraries and stuff that already do the AES-NI stuff, or...?
04:17:53 <Bike> I'm guess that's a similar situation to "-ology", which is actually from "logos".
04:18:12 <kmc> Fiora: yeah Linux and OpenSSL already have implementations at minimum
04:18:20 <Bike> "In its heyday, recipes were kept in a safe, and described how to place the food on the plate as well as how to make it."
04:18:22 <shachaf> System and Method to Do the AES-NI Stuff
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04:18:34 <kmc> i wanted to learn how it works so I wrote simple self-contained programs and commented them better than any of the examples I could find
04:18:43 <kmc> intel has a zip file with a boatload of examples but they're all big and ugly
04:19:23 <shachaf> Did you find any timing issues in the CPU?
04:19:55 <kmc> no but did you see http://inertiawar.com/microcode/
04:19:59 <kmc> incredibly badass
04:20:35 <kmc> apparently Intel CPUs have a hidden implementation of RSA for verifying signatures on microcode updates??
04:20:41 <Bike> "erratums", what
04:20:53 <kmc> Bike: i know right, gb2latinschool
04:21:29 <Fiora> kmc: I remember a week or couple ago I was futzing with those other weird instructions from roughly the same time period
04:21:32 <Fiora> the string instructions
04:21:37 <kmc> 30 days have september, april, june, and november, and one time february in sweden
04:21:38 <Bike> "the Intel-supplied undocumented binary blob" sweet
04:22:14 <Fiora> pcmp(e/i)str(i/m) (gosh I always have to look those names up)
04:22:34 <Fiora> they can do some really crazy things, internally it's basically a 256-way comparison of bytes
04:23:11 <Sgeo> Why not scrap Java as a language and just make a language that compiles to Java with Java idioms
04:23:13 <Bike> oh wow, 0x20110831, wow.
04:23:20 <Sgeo> Have Java idioms be language-level features
04:23:28 <Bike> Sgeo: The True Java
04:23:50 <Fiora> like, you could return a bitmask with 1s for bytes that are letters and 0s for bytes that aren't, or for the start of all instances of a word in a string or something
04:23:53 <Fiora> they're kind of nutty
04:24:03 <kmc> Bike: man 2 reboot (on Linux), look at the MAGIC constants
04:24:14 <Fiora> but um, maybe if you can poke me once you get the AES-NI thing up, I haven't used those at all so it sounds really cool
04:24:48 <kmc> Fiora: sure thing
04:25:25 <Bike> goofy constants i'm used to, the coding of dates not so much
04:25:41 <kmc> the reboot(2) constants are also dates
04:25:41 <Bike> Admittedly these are quite goofy indeed.
04:27:53 <Fiora> also geez the cipher mode things are complicated
04:28:39 <shachaf> AES-NI has cipher mode things?
04:29:08 <Fiora> just like the different block cipher modes and implementing them I guess
04:29:28 <Lymia> kmc, if the data's apparently random.
04:29:29 <Bike> computers are sooooo overrated
04:29:38 <Lymia> Can't the hash, er, be of the decryption of the main data
04:29:44 <Sgeo> Bad language with community that has made numerous workarounds for the language's flaws, or decent language that still has some flaws but little community?
04:30:03 <kmc> Lymia: what are you talking about?
04:30:06 <Lymia> <kmc> no but did you see http://inertiawar.com/microcode/
04:30:13 <shachaf> Fiora: CTR mode is pretty simple, at least
04:30:26 <kmc> CBC is pretty simple too
04:30:50 <Bike> do you think in a hundred years programming language arguments will be as quaint and obviously wrong as people arguing about sanskrit being magical or english being superior to french? that would be great
04:31:04 <Fiora> huh. counter mode does look really simple actually
04:31:07 <Fiora> is there some reason people use any of the others?
04:31:30 <shachaf> Fiora: The best part is that counter mode doesn't actually use a block cipher.
04:31:35 <Fiora> "he Phantasy Star Online: Blue Burst online video game uses Blowfish in ECB mode. Before the key exchange system was cracked leading to even easier methods, cheaters repeated encrypted "monster killed" message packets, each an encrypted Blowfish block, to illegitimately gain experience points quickly."
04:34:04 <kmc> Fiora: some modes provide both encryption and authentication/integrity at once
04:34:15 <Fiora> ahh, and counter mode doesn't?
04:34:17 <kmc> if you use bare CTR mode then you let an attacker flip any bit they choose in the plaintext
04:34:32 <shachaf> CTR mode has advantages even if you don't care about integrity/authentication
04:34:35 <kmc> so you would use CTR mode with a message authentication code, often the HMAC construction
04:35:05 <kmc> but a mode like GCM or OCB gives you both encryption and integrity/authentication in a single step
04:35:16 <kmc> OCB performs only slightly more block cipher operations than the unauthenticated moes
04:35:44 <kmc> GCM is nastier, it has some weird polynomial math and people are arguing on Twitter today about whether it's dumb
04:35:51 <shachaf> But it performs them even if the authentication fails.
04:35:58 <kmc> it had better!
04:36:30 <Fiora> Polynomial math, does it do some finite field thing?
04:36:32 <elliott> <Bike> do you think in a hundred years programming language arguments will be as quaint and obviously wrong as people arguing about sanskrit being magical or english being superior to french? that would be great
04:36:37 <elliott> Bike: are you some kind of aim hecker
04:36:37 <Fiora> I remember carry-less multiplication for galois field arithmetic had something to do with GCM
04:36:51 <kmc> well maybe it doesn't matter in this case
04:36:59 <kmc> in general you want to do the same steps always to avoid timing side channels
04:37:17 <shachaf> This was used as an explicit argument for doing them separately, though.
04:37:21 <elliott> it'd be interesting to have a programming language where your branches have to have the same timing
04:37:33 <Fiora> cache attacks though too :<
04:37:39 <copumpkin> elliott: enforce it in the type system!
04:37:45 <kmc> if you want a bunch of cool crypto exercises, email sean@matasano.com
04:37:49 <elliott> Fiora: no stop. you can't remind me of how security is awful
04:37:57 <elliott> OK NEW PLAN: we all stop using computers for important things
04:38:01 <Fiora> I remember reading a wonderful paper where (before AES-NI) they avoided timing attacks in an AES implementatoin
04:38:06 <Fiora> by doing it entirely in registers
04:38:08 <copumpkin> do everything in the cost-counting indexed monad!
04:38:10 <elliott> because otherwise we are so fucked
04:38:15 <Fiora> and turning the 2^8 galois operations into 4-bit sliced operations using shuffles as lookup tables
04:38:18 <Fiora> um, let me find this
04:38:19 <kmc> Fiora: was that the one where they stored the key in the debug registers?
04:38:26 <kmc> oh that might be a different paper
04:38:32 <Fiora> http://shiftleft.org/papers/vector_aes/vector_aes.pdf
04:38:36 <kmc> there was one that did that thing I said
04:38:44 <Fiora> It's an implementation of AES that uses no table lookups
04:38:49 <Bike> elliott: the hell is an "aim hecker"
04:38:50 <kmc> Fiora: cool!
04:38:50 <Fiora> and so should be immune to timing attacks of that kind?
04:39:03 <Fiora> Kinda less useful now I guess, but <.<
04:39:07 <Bike> elliott: also you know things sucked before computers right, like the whole thing with missiles
04:39:13 <HackEgo> 736) <kmc> aim hecker (n): when ur dronk and u pee so bad all over the toilet that ppl make fun of u <kmc> (corruption of "aim heckler")
04:39:59 <Fiora> oh, and the best part is it's still like 3-6 times faster than openssl
04:40:04 <elliott> kmc: i don't think Bike gets it
04:40:10 <kmc> there was Context
04:40:16 <kmc> but I'm too lazy to find it
04:40:55 <Bike> i mean obviously there are differences between languages but it seems weird to restrict that to "languages" instead of "programming systems" or something
04:40:58 <Bike> maybe i'm slightly tired yes.
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04:41:22 <elliott> anyway the point is something about php
04:41:23 <Bike> I maintain that I haven't peed so bad over the toilet.
04:41:47 <elliott> anything you say that can be interpreted in some way as a defence of php makes you an aim hecker
04:41:54 <Fiora> kmc: the part of the paper I am wayyyy beyond understanding (and probably the interesting part) is how they turn 256-way table lookups into 16-way ones
04:42:03 <Bike> your interpretation is dumb, so there.
04:42:04 <Fiora> but the 16-way table lookup trick is one of my favorite things
04:42:18 <Fiora> pshufb {16-byte table}, {data} does 16 16-way table lookups in one cycle, it's kind of amazing
04:42:19 <elliott> we have to bring up aim heckers once every month or so
04:42:36 <elliott> to prove... something to the guy who started it
04:42:39 <Bike> I'm part of a new, dynamic, unheckered #esoteric. I am the new generation. I am unstoppable
04:42:50 <elliott> something about how we really care way too much about php sucking, etc.
04:43:26 <Bike> PHP more like shitty crap doodoo that sucks
04:43:38 <shachaf> elliott: "the whole aim hecker thing is dumb hth"
04:43:47 <elliott> the whole aim hecker thing is beautiful
04:44:08 <shachaf> imo you have bad taste in things that are things
04:44:16 <elliott> Bike: the original "aim hecker" was some awful php script on this guy's site that was meant to do something or other ("hecking") with aol instant messenger accounts
04:44:24 <Bike> so speaking of something more interesting than whatever that is, I got to teach kids to play with a Mindstorms robot today
04:44:26 <elliott> presumably it was actually meant to be "aim hacker" but here is the twist: it was not
04:44:32 <kmc> Bike: best segue ever
04:44:33 <elliott> hope you're splitting your sides
04:44:34 <Bike> which was exciting because i've never so much as seen one before
04:44:45 <kmc> `addquote <Bike> so speaking of something more interesting than whatever that is, [...]
04:44:49 <HackEgo> 994) <Bike> so speaking of something more interesting than whatever that is, [...]
04:44:50 <Bike> but goddamn, 10 year olds get enthusiastic about robots
04:45:03 <shachaf> Bike: hey i remember when i played with mindstorms
04:45:09 <Fiora> my dad got me a set of that when I was like 10 or something
04:45:28 <Bike> they just had to get it to go into a garage and back but man did they work at that shit.
04:45:34 <shachaf> that would explain the fangs
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04:46:14 <elliott> by kids bike actually means ... well i was planning to come up with a funny punchline by the time i typed that out, but i failed to
04:46:22 <shachaf> Today they have those new-fangled Mindstorms things with Bluetooth and what not, right?
04:46:23 <Bike> Like every time a kid from one of the other activities came up and saw the robot going they literally just went "whooooooa"
04:46:37 <Bike> shachaf: it was USB. I don't know how fangled it was otherwise though.
04:46:38 <Fiora> I have no idea what they have nowadays, I just remember programming by dragging little puzzle piece blocks around
04:46:42 <Fiora> and building stuff
04:46:44 <Bike> Yeah, that was it.
04:46:52 <Bike> I liked that the graphical interface resembled physical legos.
04:46:54 <shachaf> Bike: The old ones had to use infrared, didn't they?
04:47:06 <Fiora> I really loved Technic-style lego though (like, making things that connected together and moved) instead of just structures though
04:47:19 <Bike> OK when I said I'd never seen mindstorms before, I mean I didn't know anything about it besides that they're Lego robots.
04:47:40 <Bike> As the only young adult I just got shoved into the tech thing because "you kids know all that stuff right"
04:47:53 <Bike> well, one of two, the other also got shoved into the tech thing, I mean.
04:48:14 <Bike> Yes. You've unraveled my insidious plot
04:49:17 <Bike> http://www.landmarksofbritain.co.uk/ivrpa/mindstorms-layout-selected.jpg?q=ivrpa/mindstorms-layout-selected.jpg all those parentheses are terrifying
04:50:08 <shachaf> dude nxt is like a billion times fancier than rcx?
04:50:32 <kmc> kids these days have a raspberry pie glued to an arduino duct taped to an iphone
04:50:39 <kmc> pi and/or pie
04:51:16 <kmc> one time I used duct tape to tape a duct
04:51:17 <shachaf> I should invent something called "duct typing" and then get mad at people when they say "duck typing".
04:51:17 <kmc> what a day
04:51:26 <Bike> ductible typing
04:51:34 <kmc> deductible typing
04:51:56 <Bike> Oh, also the kids did this while wearing labcoats labeled as being from clean rooms. It was pretty much adorable.
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05:06:52 <elliott> i did absolutely nothing to deserve this
05:08:02 <Sgeo> I get to wake up in 4 hours!
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05:09:32 <kmc> fu chrome, how many documents contain the characters — in that order
05:09:53 <kmc> famed swedish post-metal band — completed their record-setting tour today
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05:10:33 <Bike> mojibake is mai waifu
05:10:56 <Sgeo> I once went to a 3d chat site, it was based in Israel and there were a lot of Hebrew speakers there, but I didn't have fonts so their text showed up as a lot of vowels
05:10:57 <kmc> i don't know what that is so i'm going to assume it's a flavor of pocky
05:11:06 <Sgeo> And got said by the narrator thing as a vowely sound
05:11:16 <kmc> how ironic
05:11:25 <Bike> mojibake is what you call consequences of encoding errors like "—" (if you're feeling japanese)
05:11:43 <Bike> oh did you mean the waifu thing? yeah that's pocky
05:12:09 <kmc> in Russian it's called krakozyabry (кракозя́бры)
05:12:17 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Koverto-kun-krakozjabroj.png still the best thing
05:12:33 <Bike> also serves as the title of my blog
05:12:38 <kmc> cool, link?
05:12:42 <Bike> ok yeah that's great
05:13:05 <Bike> it's mostly personal stuff, i'll link it later if i feel like it and write soething moderately interesting maybe
05:13:16 <Bike> or you could just google that word >_>
05:13:37 <Bike> anyway i'm imagining a russian mailperson being like "yeah this looks like polish i guess"
05:14:03 <elliott> `addquote <kmc> i don't know what that is so i'm going to assume it's a flavor of pocky
05:14:07 <HackEgo> 995) <kmc> i don't know what that is so i'm going to assume it's a flavor of pocky
05:14:40 <elliott> guys we need 5 moreq uotes
05:14:54 <kmc> perhaps zzo38 will say 5 things tomorrow
05:15:12 <Bike> i hope there's a wraparound error when it hits 1000
05:15:17 <HackEgo> 10) <reddit user "othermatt"> So what you're saying is that I shouldn't lick my iPhone but instead I should rub it on my eyes first and then lick my eyeballs? \ 20) <ehird> so i can only conclude that it is flawed, or the world is utterly bonkers \ 30) <oklopol> anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true <oklopol> should put that on my todo
05:15:29 <Bike> ok that wasn't what i expeted
05:16:04 <elliott> im not sure what that is doing
05:16:28 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
05:16:29 <shachaf> Searching for the string "0"?
05:16:47 <shachaf> > all (0 `isInfixOf`) ["10","20","30"]
05:16:49 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num [GHC.Types.Char])
05:16:55 <shachaf> > all ("0" `isInfixOf`) ["10","20","30"]
05:17:03 -!- kmc has set topic: There is no rule in poker that says you have to try hard to win. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
05:17:06 <elliott> it wouldn't search in quoten umbers though
05:17:36 <Bike> kmc: zzo38 has actually written the plots of most hollywood films of the last few years
05:20:31 <shachaf> That's like having anti-fonts.
05:20:57 <shachaf> kmc: Is that a zzo38 quote?
05:21:06 <HackEgo> 801) <zzo38> There is no rule in poker that says you have to try hard to win.
05:21:42 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16671
05:22:43 <shachaf> zzo38 for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ruler_of_the_Universe
05:22:54 <kmc> zzo38 for emperor of united states and protector of mexico
05:23:55 <shachaf> Bike: Do you understand the F-Alg free monad thing?
05:24:09 <Bike> I'm going to say no.
05:24:23 <shachaf> I don't really either. :-(
05:24:27 <Bike> Actually if that's catamorphismy it might be yes, but I'm still going to say no
05:24:53 <shachaf> Please explain it and its relation to the free monad as given by the left adjoint to the forgetful functor to the category of endofunctors?
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05:25:19 <Bike> imo stick with sigma algebras
05:25:36 <shachaf> Bike this is important.......
05:26:22 <Bike> I don't even know what a free monad is, is that like a free monoid
05:26:37 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Peltier
05:26:37 <shachaf> it's like a free monoid in the category of endofunctors
05:26:51 <shachaf> Bike: Please make that an https link so I can click on it.
05:27:00 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Peltier
05:27:47 <shachaf> Bike++ # uses https links unbidden
05:29:58 <Bike> hm so is a free monad like a monoid of strings of endofunctors which are compositions or something maybe
05:30:19 <elliott> it's data Free f = Pure a | Free (f (Free f a)), hope this helps
05:31:26 <shachaf> Bike: lists are 1 + a*(1 + a*(1 + a*(...
05:31:43 <shachaf> free monads are a + f (a + f (a + f (...
05:31:53 <Bike> Oh. That's kinda neat.
05:32:22 <shachaf> You can make them look even more similar.
05:32:34 <shachaf> It's sort of like 1 + f + f^2 + f^3
05:32:58 <Bike> yeah a lot of category theory stuff ends up looking like combinatorics to me for some reason.
05:33:21 <shachaf> Types are related to combinatorics in all sorts of ways.
05:33:26 <elliott> did you know the derivative of a type is the type of its one-hole contexts??
05:33:28 <shachaf> And combinatorial species.
05:33:42 <elliott> also the logarithm of a functor is the number of holes it has.
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05:34:30 <Bike> what's the logarithm of []
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05:35:42 <elliott> http://cstheory.stackexchange.com/questions/17006/what-is-the-logarithm-or-root-operation-in-type-space
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10:25:19 * Sgeo provisionally retracts his objections to JavaBeans
10:26:19 <Sgeo> Someone suggested having the interface that clients use not mention private things
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11:02:03 <Sgeo> Person who agreed with me is now being clueless
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12:30:33 <GOMADWarrior> would it be possible to make a language that compiles to an exe?
12:31:51 <Taneb> You'd need to compile it for windows
12:33:23 <Taneb> .exe is just the suffix Windows uses to mark executables
12:34:42 <GOMADWarrior> ah, yes, I meant an executable, not specifically .exe
12:35:10 <Taneb> That's what a lot of compilers do
12:35:23 <Taneb> Including gcc, GHC, and others
12:36:21 <Jafet> There is in fact, an obscure language that has a 200-byte compiler.
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12:42:06 <fizzie> Awib is (modulo some arguments about "cheating") written in one obscure language like that, and generates (x86 Linux) binaries directly.
12:45:21 <ThatOtherPerson> Windows compilers are probably slightly more complicated than *nix compilers
12:47:57 <fizzie> Also, .exe is used as the executable suffix at least by Symbian and OS/2 in addition to Windows and DOS.
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12:51:36 <fizzie> (Symbian also makes a difference between .app for applications with user interfaces, and .exe for service-type things.)
12:59:38 <boily> symbian still exists?
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13:03:22 <fizzie> boily: That is not dead which can eternal lie.
13:07:44 <boily> fizzie: and with strange aeons symbian will have >50% market share on mobile devices.
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13:43:41 <metasepia> Symbiosis is close and often long-term interaction between two or more different biological species.
13:46:38 <metasepia> duck definition: any of various swimming birds (family Anatidae, the duck family) in which the neck and legs are short, the feet typically webbed, the bill often broad and flat, and the sexes usually different from each other in plumage.
13:47:17 <Gregor> Can TAs who teach lab classes have a larger quota?
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13:47:18 <Gregor> We are not planning to subsidize work that TA's are doing. Our recommendation would be that a department provides a work printer for their TAs to use, or that they subsidize their quotas.
13:47:22 <Gregor> My university = brilliant.
13:47:40 <Gregor> Pluralizing initialisms in two different ways within the same answer to a question.
13:47:43 <ion> ∴ brilliant = your university
13:48:43 <Arc_Koen> yesterday someone told me I was your university
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16:34:18 <kmc> today's mushroom fact: many mushrooms are carnivorous
16:34:52 <kmc> the mycelium will attract, trap, and digest nematodes for their delicious nitrogen
16:34:57 <kmc> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0n04wCkIpuQ
16:38:44 <kmc> Taneb: .NET programs are .exe files, even when compiled by Mono on Linux
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16:38:48 <kmc> and they have a PE-like format
16:38:58 <kmc> and you can exec them directly thanks to binfmt_misc
16:39:40 <kmc> /tmp/foo.exe: PE32 executable (console) Intel 80386 Mono/.Net assembly, for MS Windows
16:39:59 <kmc> i don't know a) why it's "for MS Windows" and b) whether it's really architecture-specific
16:41:00 <kmc> now I wonder what ThatOtherPerson meant by saying the Windows API can only be accessed from C and not assembly
16:41:31 <kmc> isn't there a standard ABI? I can call libc from assembly code on Linux as long as I comply with the C ABI
16:42:05 <kmc> you can have APIs that are defined at source level and might be implemented with macros -- POSIX allows this for a lot of things -- but I didn't know that the Windows API is like this
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17:01:53 <metasepia> mushroom definition: an enlarged complex aboveground fleshy fruiting body of a fungus (as a basidiomycete) that consists typically of a stem bearing a pileus; '''especially'''.
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17:05:06 <fizzie> kmc: I think e meant that it's defined in terms of functions in DLLs, so you get a slight complication in that you need to do linking, as opposed to calling some sort of int X/syscall-based interface directly.
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17:06:15 <fizzie> (It might have some amount of could-be-a-C-macro-logy going on, too, for all I know; but people certainly are calling into the API from assembly.
17:06:34 <boily> ~duck absolute terror field
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17:11:33 <kmc> 'By extension, the term "mushroom" can also designate the entire fungus when in culture'
17:12:29 <boily> ~duck black fungus
17:12:45 <metasepia> wood ear definition: any of several ear- or cup-shaped basidiomycetous fungi (genus '''Auricularia''') that grow on wood.
17:13:15 <kmc> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Zwerg_Postkarte_001.jpg
17:23:43 <GOMADWarrior> what langs other than haskell have pattern matching?
17:24:49 <kmc> SML, OCaml
17:25:00 <kmc> there are pattern-matching libraries for many other languages
17:25:05 <kmc> i think there's one built into Racket
17:25:10 <fizzie> Many non-standard Scheme bits. (Maybe there's a SRFI too?)
17:25:30 <kmc> Scheme's syntax-rules is a bit like pattern matching, albeit in a specialized domain
17:25:45 <fizzie> kmc: Also, the bit that says "for MS Windows" is there in the PE executable magic detection where it decides whether to say either "for MS Windows" or "for MS-DOS, 32rtm DOS extender # hooray, there's a DOS extender using the PE format, with a valid PE executable inside (which just prints a message and exits if run in win)" -- and doesn't have anything in particular to do with the Mono/.Net ...
17:25:57 <kmc> Coq has pattern matching
17:26:13 <kmc> they're inspired by OCaml and Haskell respectively
17:26:23 <kmc> actually OCaml was invented for writing the Coq implementation... but anyway
17:26:26 <elliott> ocaml and coq sort of inspired each other i think
17:26:39 <elliott> coq pattern matching is really kind of awful
17:26:39 <kmc> fizzie: haha
17:26:46 <elliott> dependent types make everything a pain
17:26:47 <kmc> s/pattern matching //
17:27:02 <elliott> coq is a pretty impressive system
17:27:14 <kmc> a lot of its parts are pretty ugly though
17:27:25 <elliott> i don't really like the tactics system but it's amazing just how advanced and old (80s!) it is
17:27:31 <elliott> and some things like the notation system are really pretty cool
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17:31:57 <kmc> it depends on what kinds of data types and what kinds of patterns you want to support
17:32:13 <kmc> the ML/Haskell form of pattern matching goes along with the concept of algebraic data
17:32:39 <kmc> where every value you can decompose has a constructior and zero or more fields
17:32:56 <kmc> the constructor isn't like an OO constructor; it's not a chunk of code that runs; it's just a tag applied to some fields
17:33:30 <kmc> so the basic form of pattern is "match if the constructor was X and apply sub patterns p, q, ... to the fields"
17:34:11 <kmc> in Haskell this is also the basic construct which drives lazy thunks to be evaluated, but you can ignore that in a language without lazy eval
17:36:00 <elliott> something about paramorphisms and induction schemes
17:39:09 <kmc> something about higher order unification being undecidable
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18:38:50 <oerjan> @tell shachaf Another method which works with [] : go to [ , then %x``x
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19:08:10 <AnotherTest> Hello, does either Python or Haskell has an operator (built-in or standard library) for Knuth's arrowup notation?
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19:11:56 <kmc> AnotherTest: not to my knowledge
19:12:04 <kmc> probably in non-standard library
19:13:18 <oerjan> AnotherTest: the result wouldn't fit in memory for any but the simplest cases...
19:13:50 <AnotherTest> oerjan: I just need the simplest cases :-)
19:13:59 <kmc> AnotherTest: no
19:15:47 <kmc> :t let up 0 a b = a^b; up n a b = foldr1 (up (n-1)) (replicate b a) in up
19:15:48 <lambdabot> (Eq a, Num a) => a -> Int -> Int -> Int
19:16:01 <kmc> > let up 0 a b = a^b; up n a b = foldr1 (up (n-1)) (replicate b a) in up 3 3 2
19:16:11 <oerjan> kmc: was writing that, i think it should start at 1 though
19:16:20 <kmc> > let up 1 a b = a^b; up n a b = foldr1 (up (n-1)) (replicate b a) in up 3 3 2
19:16:26 <kmc> cool, matches wikipedia
19:16:35 <kmc> now let's golf
19:16:49 <boily> ~eval up up 1 a b = a^b; up n a b = foldr1 (up (n-1)) (replicate b a) in up 3 3 2
19:16:54 <boily> ~eval up up 1 a b = a^b; up n a b = foldr1 (up (n-1)) (replicate b a) in up 3 3 2
19:16:55 <metasepia> Error (1): <hint>:1:13: parse error on input `='
19:17:03 <kmc> :t let up 0 = (^); up n = (foldr1 (up (n-1))) . flip replicate in up
19:17:04 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[b0 -> a0]'
19:17:09 * boily stares angrily at metasepia
19:17:25 <oerjan> boily: you have duplicated an up
19:17:44 <oerjan> i think you might want a let instead of the first one
19:21:00 <boily> ~eval let up 1 a b = a^b; up n a b = foldr1 (up (n-1)) (replicate b a) in up 3 3 2
19:21:01 <metasepia> Error (1): Ambiguous occurrence `foldr1'
19:21:01 <metasepia> It could refer to either `GHC.List.foldr1',
19:21:01 <metasepia> imported from `Data.List' at Imports.hs:16:1-16
19:21:01 <metasepia> (and originally defined in `base:GHC.List')
19:21:02 <metasepia> imported from `Data.Foldable' at Imports.hs:13:1-20
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19:21:15 <boily> ~eval let up 1 a b = a^b; up n a b = Data.List.foldr1 (up (n-1)) (replicate b a) in up 3 3 2
19:21:21 <oerjan> now _that_ is a reason to stare angry.
19:21:30 <boily> good bot, good bot
19:21:38 * boily pat pat pats his bot
19:22:03 <ThatOtherPersonY> What what what language is that of the bot which you are pat pat patting?
19:22:05 <oerjan> i'm sure there must be some way of checking for name collisions.
19:22:53 <boily> ThatOtherPersonY: it's written in haskell, but input from ~eval is forwarded to mueval, so it's only a coincidence.
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19:24:19 <boily> oerjan: I had those collisions mostly flattened, but this one is rebarbative.
19:24:56 <kmc> > let up 1 a b = a^b; up n a b = iterate (up (n-1) a) a !! (b-1) in up 3 3 2
19:26:10 <ais523> I think I /may/ have fixed Anarchy
19:26:10 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
19:26:16 <ais523> the fix is to make it intentionally sub-TC
19:26:18 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1d 22h 34m 33s ago: <ais523> imagine something as simple as "do >+, then wait for the current cell to become zero, then wait that many cycles again, then do something else" <-- +>([{}]
19:26:18 <lambdabot> somethingelse(.)*-1)%-1 assuming %-1 is legal
19:26:18 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1d 22h 34m 15s ago: *>+
19:26:18 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1d 22h 33m 31s ago: Oops, discard, duh
19:26:18 <lambdabot> elliott said 1d 22h 31m 24s ago: *>+
19:26:52 <ais523> oerjan: that doesn't work because the current cell could become nonzero again
19:26:54 * kmc wonders if a language extension that allows to define (↑), (↑↑), (↑↑↑), etc. all at once would generalize in any interesting way
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19:27:46 <shachaf> kmc: I once defined a lisp macro "cr" to generalize cadr etc.
19:27:46 <lambdabot> shachaf: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:29:38 <oerjan> ais523: I SAID DISCARD
19:31:34 <oerjan> boily: i thought before in the context of lambdabot, if all names were filtered through a module reexporting them, then ghc would have to check for collisions on compilation.
19:32:47 <ais523> oerjan: fwiw, I tried to write anticipation that way first too
19:32:52 <ais523> but it clearly wouldn't work
19:33:19 <boily> ~eval foldl (+) 0 [1..6]
19:33:38 <boily> oerjan: I import qualified Data.Foldable as F.
19:35:12 <oerjan> boily: ok, although one problem with lambdabot is that it's hard to guess the module prefixes used
19:35:46 <oerjan> so i hope you have a logical system.
19:36:04 * boily whistles innocently, subtly tryin to avoid the problem.
19:36:20 <boily> right now, I have F, T, A, B and M as prefixes.
19:37:04 <oerjan> Data.Foldable, Data.Traversable, Control.Applicative, Data.Bits and Control.Monad?
19:37:28 <oerjan> Control.Monad doesn't clash with anything
19:37:56 <oerjan> i may have switched Data and Control somewhere
19:37:57 <boily> T is Data.Text, A is Data.Attoparsec.Text, B is Data.ByteString.Lazy.
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19:40:55 <boily> I don't see any problem there.
19:41:59 <oerjan> DAT and DBL would have been logical.
19:42:13 <oerjan> assuming the scheme were used throughout.
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19:43:09 <oerjan> i guess you _are_ choosing the most informational single letter.
19:44:20 <olsner> B for bytestring is normal (I think), and applicative usually doesn't need a qualified import
19:44:31 <boily> applicative has no qualifications.
19:45:55 <boily> maybe I should «import qualified Control.Applicative as ₳».
19:48:00 <ais523> btw, we seem to have people editing over IPv6: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/2001:980:B030:1:92E6:BAFF:FE12:44BB
19:48:03 <ais523> always nice to see that
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19:48:10 <shachaf> I,I import qualified Control.Lens as ^Lens
19:49:02 <Bike> what is I,I help
19:49:06 <oerjan> also what's this I,I thing i've been seein... right
19:49:16 <shachaf> Bike: it looks like an owl face to me hth
19:49:17 <olsner> some sort of smiley, I think, hth
19:49:29 * boily stares at shachaf, but not angrily, cause he's not a bot.
19:49:37 <boily> (at least, I *think* he's not a bot.)
19:49:47 <oerjan> boily: let your bot stare angrily at him instead hth
19:49:49 * shachaf is almost certainly a bot.
19:49:57 <olsner> shachaf: no you're not
19:50:01 <boily> ~echo /me ça marche tu?
19:50:04 <Gregor> But aren't we all bots on the inside?
19:50:39 <oerjan> ~echo <CTCP>ACTION ça marche tu?<CTCP>
19:51:23 <oerjan> the inside idioms are coming so thick today i may need a machete
19:52:39 <oerjan> olsner: strange phrases and behaviors common on #esoteric, like e.g. swedes don't understanding my phrases
19:53:46 <olsner> your phrases are not the only ones I'm having trouble understanding
19:55:29 <olsner> sure, whatever you say
19:55:31 <oerjan> Gregor: those are just nanobots waiting for their command to destroy us, that's not the same thing
19:55:37 <shachaf> @where+ me /me knows nothing about me.
19:55:53 <boily> stupid terminal that won't let me input \SOHs.
19:55:58 <oerjan> huh it works in lambdabot?
19:56:33 <oerjan> i hope it is a special case, although i feel a slight twitching to try @where+ quit /quit
19:57:11 <boily> what does that do?
19:57:15 <boily> @where+ quit /quit
19:58:02 <oerjan> boily: saves a piece of data. now if you were to try the obvious next step, which would be evil of course...
19:58:18 <boily> to try what? that?
19:58:51 <boily> uhm... second time a bot abuses me or my mother.
20:00:24 <oerjan> hm i don't know about that client
20:01:01 <oerjan> in irssi i had to change a keybinding to allow inserting ^A
20:01:24 <boily> I'm in weechat, in screen, in urxvt.
20:01:44 <oerjan> boily: i saw the weechat part
20:01:55 <oerjan> and i've heard evil things about screen
20:02:21 <boily> both are evil. urxvt lets me be unicodely evil.
20:05:03 <oerjan> <Bike> imo stick with sigma algebras <-- imo good policy
20:05:39 <oerjan> then you can measure things properly.
20:11:15 <oerjan> `addquote <boily> symbian still exists? <fizzie> boily: That is not dead which can eternal lie. <boily> fizzie: and with strange aeons symbian will have >50% market share on mobile devices.
20:11:19 <HackEgo> 996) <boily> symbian still exists? <fizzie> boily: That is not dead which can eternal lie. <boily> fizzie: and with strange aeons symbian will have >50% market share on mobile devices.
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20:20:44 <ais523> oh wow, have you seen the patent that Red Hat just got invalidated when it was asserted against one of their customers?
20:21:17 <ais523> it basically comes down to "rounding floating-point numbers by using a floating-point coprocessor"
20:21:22 <kmc> is there a clause in the support contract that obliges them to defend you
20:21:25 <olsner> boily: I think symbian "exists" at most as much as canada does
20:21:32 <Bike> ais523: who patented that?
20:21:35 <kmc> ISTR this is one major reason for The Enterprise to pay for Linux
20:21:51 <ais523> Bike: I don't know, but Uniloc seemed to own it
20:22:06 <ais523> kmc: yeah, there is indeed a clause in Red Hat's support contract that they'll defend you from lawsuits
20:22:08 <ais523> that's why they were there
20:22:28 <ais523> normally the clause goes the other way, that you have to defend the distributor from lawsuits
20:22:44 <ais523> but for red hat it's one of the main reasons to pay them rather than just using fedora or centos
20:22:58 <Fiora> so like, going after someone for using an x87 CPU? O_O
20:23:17 <Bike> yeah that sounds like a troll
20:23:24 <kmc> patents :(
20:24:15 <ais523> the court threw the patent out right at the start of the case, btw
20:24:47 <ais523> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20130124104536791
20:25:12 <ais523> also has links to all the legal documents, if you're interested in those
20:25:30 <Bike> "converting a floating-point number memory register representation to a floating-point register representation;" for real
20:28:27 <Bike> "However, according to the patent itself, the claims’ novelty and improvement over the standard is the rounding of the floating-point number before, rather than after, the arithmetic computation."
20:30:19 <Fiora> do we know like what exactly they were suing over, like a particular CPU?
20:30:52 <ais523> it's probably in uniloc's motion
20:31:55 <ais523> although, perhaps they didn't say
20:31:56 <Bike> It says near the top that the Linux kernel infringed it (supposedly)
20:32:04 <Bike> In the article, I mean, not the motion.
20:32:05 <ais523> that's not surprising, really
20:32:21 <Fiora> I'm kind of wondering how the kernel can infringe that o_O
20:32:45 <ais523> the main problem is whether the kernel does float calculations
20:32:47 <Fiora> if I'm reading this right the idea here is a CPU that rounds floating point numbers during loads, letting it simplify the pipeline stages and improve performance in hardware float computation
20:33:04 <ais523> Fiora: no, the idea is to round a floating point number when you move it from memory into the floating-point registers
20:33:07 <Fiora> but if a piece of software can infringe that I guess I don't really get it...
20:33:15 <Fiora> um, I thought that's what I said...
20:33:26 <ais523> you brought a CPU into the discussion
20:33:40 <ais523> the patent doesn't care whether it's the CPU doing it automatically
20:33:44 <ais523> or if you wrote code to do it by hand
20:33:46 <Fiora> the article mentioned it though... um...
20:33:57 <Fiora> As stated in the ‘697 Patent:
20:33:57 <Fiora> The benefit of rounding the operand instead of the result is that carry propagation is eliminated and no exponent adjustment is required. Additionally, due to the lack of result rounding, arithmetic
20:33:59 <ais523> now, the x87 has a different bitwidth to a typical float or double
20:34:02 <Fiora> operations have a more efficient implementation. In particular, it becomes possible to have fewer pipeline stages or eliminate conditionally performed pipeline stages thereby shortening the total logic delay of the arithmetic operation.
20:34:11 <Fiora> that's the bit that confused me , sorry
20:34:25 <ais523> although note that that bit of a patent, its only job is to be confusing
20:34:30 <ais523> because it's not legally binding
20:34:45 <Fiora> it kind of feels like "maybe this was a legitimate invention for a piece of hardware, but now they're trying to twist it to go after linux"? I don't know >_<
20:35:13 <Bike> "Uniloc's story mirrors an American theme seen over and over during the last few decades: a company that is discovering, growing and innovating technology ..." can't say i'm sympathetic to them from their site
20:35:55 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniloc not sure it's the same one, though
20:36:02 <olsner> "Look at many ideas. Pick an outstanding one. Patent it. Commercialize it. Reap the rewards."
20:37:27 <Bike> Uniloc is more than a device recognition company, however. Without tipping our hand we are developing really interesting ideas in the local advertising and entertainment content licensing spaces. Plus, we’ve got a few ultra-secret concepts we’re not ready to disclose publically yet.
20:37:38 <pikhq> ais523: Linux includes an x87 emulator.
20:37:40 <Bike> Gonna be honest here, I didn't know "device recognition" was a thing.
20:37:49 <pikhq> Admittedly not many systems *need* it, but still.
20:38:11 <ais523> what's the odds that Rackspace were actually using it, though?
20:38:27 <pikhq> But it wouldn't be too surprising that they just happened to be compiling it in.
20:38:39 <pikhq> It's on by default.
20:38:51 <pikhq> And it's the sort of thing you simply wouldn't go out of your way to disable.
20:39:15 <pikhq> Even though you're probably not running on a 486 or 386 sans FPU.
20:40:34 <ais523> <Red Hat> Second, Uniloc can cite no support for its claim that a lack of specificity somehow renders a claim less abstract.
20:41:07 <Fiora> didn't linux actually like drop 386 support a bit ago?
20:41:32 <fizzie> Many distributions dropped that a while ago.
20:41:41 <pikhq> fizzie: Very recently, yes.
20:41:51 <fizzie> The kernel did something, too, yes.
20:41:56 <pikhq> But, some 486 systems do not have an FPU.
20:42:00 <olsner> does linux still support 486?
20:42:01 <pikhq> Meaning that that code is still relevant.
20:42:15 <pikhq> And it's not quite as insane to support the 486 as the 386.
20:42:26 <Bike> Does suing Red Hat about the kernel even make sense?
20:42:41 <pikhq> The 386 doesn't have the atomic primitives necessary for a sane threading implementation.
20:42:44 <Fiora> I think red hat has money
20:42:55 <Fiora> it's that thing where you can't actually sue linus or someone, so you sue people who use it and have money
20:43:08 <pikhq> Whereas the 486 does...
20:43:12 <olsner> and 486 is still relevant? as some sort of embedded cpu thingy?
20:43:19 <pikhq> From a pure ISA standpoint it's not too hard to support.
20:43:26 <pikhq> olsner: Yeah, it's still around in embedded use.
20:43:33 <Bike> That's what I"m wondering about, like, can you sue Red Hat for something they just use.
20:44:01 <pikhq> Bike: Sadly, patent law is really screwy in the case of software.
20:44:17 <pikhq> It amounts to Red Hat being in violation because they compiled it.
20:44:23 <Bike> I know. I just want to know a bit more about how scrrrrr oh. Oh.
20:45:08 <pikhq> This sort of shit is why Microsoft regularly shakes down Android distributors for protection money.
20:45:18 <pikhq> Because of dubious patents on FAT.
20:46:03 <ais523> pikhq: I thought Linux had a workaround for that patent ages ago
20:46:26 <ais523> which left it unable to write long file names on FAT, but still capable of reading them, or something like that
20:47:07 <pikhq> ais523: They've got several FAT patents, and these don't end up going to court.
20:49:21 <pikhq> Besides which, Android devices are starting to have to support exFAT.
20:49:49 <pikhq> (because SDXC mandates it)
20:51:17 <pikhq> (which is honestly a fucking stupid decision on the part of Secure Digital, given that there's at least two filesystems entirely suitable for the purpose that don't have crazy license requirements)
20:51:26 <pikhq> (FAT32 and UDF, namely)
20:52:58 <olsner> I guess they really really want Windows to support their new thingy
20:53:10 <pikhq> Windows already supports UDF.
20:53:52 <pikhq> Indeed, each version of Windows that supports exFAT supports UDF.
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20:54:00 <fizzie> FAT32 has that 4 gigabyte file problem.
20:55:08 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:55:40 <pikhq> (and significantly more versions of Mac OS support UDF)
20:56:02 <pikhq> (namely, Mac OS 9 and up)
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21:02:16 <ais523> pikhq: and presumably Linux supports everything?
21:05:02 <fizzie> I was under the impression that exFAT in Linux was kind of iffy, due to the aforementioned issues.
21:05:16 <fizzie> (And exFAT is clearly part of everything.)
21:06:14 <ais523> btw, SCO are trying to reopen the case against IBM again
21:07:35 <fizzie> I do wonder what the next step for the SD family will be called; there's SD (SDSC?), SDHC and now SDXC. SDUC, for ultra capacity?
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21:08:11 <ais523> ID, because they realised nobody used the security features
21:10:04 <pikhq> fizzie: It's not upstream at all.
21:10:19 <Bike> wait does LYAH just stop with zippers
21:10:26 <pikhq> But yes, Linux supports UDF, and has since Linux 2.2
21:10:50 <Taneb> Bike, the author of LYAH disappeared mysteriously or something
21:14:32 <Bike> "Miran Lipovaca is a computer science student in Ljubljana, Slovenia. In addition to his passion for Haskell, he enjoys boxing, playing bass guitar, and, of course, drawing. He has a fascination with dancing skeletons and the number 71, and when he walks through automatic doors he pretends that he's actually opening them with his mind."
21:15:08 <Bike> Seriously though, it just died in the middle of something? Not even a generalization of zippers?
21:16:16 <FreeFull> I guess there is always Real World Haskell
21:16:54 <kmc> you should just hang out in #haskell for 2 years and learn all the important shit nobody bothers writing down coherently and then get bitter and come here and complain about #haskell all the time
21:17:20 <Bike> truly, haskell is ineffable
21:17:34 <kmc> don't even try to eff it
21:17:46 <FreeFull> LYAH ends with Maybe (Zipper a)
21:17:50 <oerjan> you cannot generalize zippers. tru fax.
21:18:00 <ais523> how many languages actually need to be TC?
21:18:14 <ais523> like, how many typical programs wouldn't work properly in a sub-TC language?
21:18:22 <ais523> interpreters typically need a TC language
21:18:32 <Bike> well what has an interpreter
21:18:32 <oerjan> ais523: congratulations, you've reinvented total programming
21:18:48 <FreeFull> Is there any form of computation stronger than TC?
21:18:51 <ais523> but in the context of Anarchy, which is a bit atypical as languages go
21:18:52 <Bike> there's always the kmc device: pointing out that linux has a JIT for packet filtering or whatever it is
21:19:00 <Bike> FreeFull: not ones you can "actually" "do" but yes
21:19:02 <oerjan> FreeFull: not that we can _use_
21:19:11 <ais523> FreeFull: "uncomputable"; the Church-Turing thesis is the theory that no uncomputable languages can be implemented in the universe that actually exists
21:19:21 <ais523> and seems to be more of a religious than a mathematical belief
21:19:30 <pikhq> FreeFull: There are several such theoretical models, but to our knowledge they cannot be actually implemented.
21:19:39 <Bike> FreeFull: there's an infinite hierarchy going turing machines, machines that have access to an oracle that determines whether turing machines can halt, etc etc
21:19:44 <ais523> certainly, nobody has a working implementation of an uncomputable language; this was quite surprising when first discovered
21:19:46 <Bike> ais523: there are some neat physics papers on it, though.
21:19:47 <pikhq> However, "to our knowledge" is the tricky bit.
21:19:48 <FreeFull> ais523: Maybe it could be done in an universe that is uncomputable for our computers
21:20:04 <ais523> Bike: and it's not the only interesting hierarchy
21:20:07 * FireFly is reminded of banana scheme
21:20:44 <oerjan> <kmc> you should just hang out [...] <-- you missed "and write the book yourself" hth
21:21:02 <Bike> and disappear halfway through?
21:21:09 <Bike> btw this means I can now think of two different slovenians
21:21:10 <ais523> just write a monad tutorial, we don't have enough of those yet
21:21:20 <ais523> btw, what are there more of: monad tutorials, or BF derivatives?
21:21:54 <Bike> to demonstrate this weird "monad" things, let's define a simple programming language
21:22:10 <ais523> Bike: I've seriously considered writing a blog post about monad transformers in BF
21:22:20 <ais523> mostly for the purpose of trolling reddit
21:22:54 <Bike> the Tape monad
21:23:10 <oerjan> istr Tape is a comonad, not a monad hth
21:24:40 <oerjan> i'm too lazy, but _maybe_ i could help cowriting it
21:24:54 <ais523> it'd probably be really mathematically inaccurate
21:25:11 <ais523> I was thinking about things like "double all the < and > so you can interleave two tapes"
21:33:43 <fizzie> Does HTH mean "Happy to Haskell"?
21:34:07 <Bike> much the same as "lol" means "lots of love"
21:34:39 <fungot> Selected style: sms (National University of Singapore SMS corpus, 2011-08-20)
21:34:41 <fungot> fizzie: nw i has cum mre frm urself thn frm othrs hav done
21:34:54 <fizzie> fungot: That sounds vaguely dirty.
21:34:54 <fungot> fizzie: want to eat chicken. note. sorry. anyway i can help let me just to talk to you about some cals. take a gd rest. nite nite.
21:35:14 <fizzie> fungot: I don't think bots can eat chicken.
21:35:15 <fungot> fizzie: later. will come outside the lab? i hav to weigh me down! and insing de all not much review i am having a baddiarrhea... please update me on the street
21:35:48 <oerjan> well now we know what happens when bots eat chicken.
21:36:09 <fizzie> I'm afraid to go to my "server room" (it's not really that) now.
21:37:25 <oerjan> hm an ugly lag here, i hope i'm not getting disconnected
21:37:48 <ais523> oerjan: you responded to a ping in 0 seconds
21:38:16 <oerjan> ais523: the lag is between my laptop and my irc client
21:38:54 <kmc> MILF -- May I Leave Flowers?
21:49:13 <GOMADWarrior> everytime the timeout expires you break out of the loop
21:49:37 <ais523> @tell elliott Should we move Everett to the joke language list? As far as I can tell, the main idea is that although it allows you to express any program very concisely, you have to be very lucky for it to actually work
21:49:46 <oerjan> that thinking is _so_ out of the loop, man
21:49:53 <ais523> actually, I can put that on the talk page
21:54:27 <ais523> incidentally, what does it say about me that my reaction to the ISP's DNS apparently being dodgy is to, when I find a site I want to visit that's broken because of the DNS, looking up its address in a different server then adding it to my hosts file?
21:54:51 -!- tswett_ has changed nick to tswett.
21:55:16 <Bike> can't you just use an alternative DNS
21:56:12 <ais523> yeah but I don't want to
21:56:38 <Bike> wouldn't it be easier
21:56:40 <ais523> I wouldn't mention the fact that I was potentially doing something abnormal to the channel if there wasn't an obvious better way
21:57:41 <kmc> it's so easy to use google dns
21:58:15 <oerjan> kmc: do you think it might be a monoid?
21:58:22 <fizzie> Sometimes I wonder if I should do that DNSSEC thing. It doesn't really seem to be taking off very well.
22:00:51 <fizzie> There was a thing where qmail servers were unable to send mail to domains with DNSSEC enabled, because it couldn't cope with its "domain IN ANY" query returning a response that was larger than 512 bytes, which could easily happen with DNSSEC on due to all the keys.
22:01:04 <kmc> djb hates dnssec
22:01:40 <ais523> kmc: yeah but I distrust Google several orders of magnitude more than average
22:01:43 <fizzie> qmail is also sort of dead.
22:01:54 <ais523> allowing them to see every site I visit would be ridiculous
22:02:28 -!- Zerker has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - Timeout (10 minutes)).
22:04:11 <ais523> <meetingcpp> this is yet not a complete overview. Modules are likely to be part of C++17/22.
22:04:27 <fizzie> (iki.fi, a Finnish email forwarding serv^W...thing, toggled DNSSEC on at some point last year, and hit some of those qmail problems; or so they said in their recent yearly meeting.)
22:05:33 <ais523> I've seen iki.fi used on occasoin
22:05:45 <ais523> what exactly does it do? or is that too complex to explain easily?
22:05:50 <GOMADWarrior> is getting the system time a costly operation?
22:06:28 <olsner> C++17/22? and here I was hoping they'd kill that thing off some time soon, not make more standards
22:06:48 <ais523> GOMADWarrior: not massively; it involves a context switch on most kernels, and those aren't particularly cheap
22:07:07 <ais523> GOMADWarrior: it's about the same cost as, say, an unbuffered read/write to a file
22:07:24 <ais523> alternatively, there's a very cheap but nonportable method involving the CPU timestamp counters
22:07:25 <fizzie> ais523: It is an email forwarding service, except apparently they can't call it service because a tax-exempt nonprofit can't provide "services".
22:07:47 <ais523> it does email forwarding in a non-servicey way?
22:08:16 <fizzie> ais523: Technically you pay a yearly membership fee, but the membership fee has been 0 during it's... 17 or so years of history.
22:08:32 <ais523> do they actually send invoices?
22:08:40 <ais523> also, does a fee make them more of a service, or less of one?
22:09:02 <GOMADWarrior> don't games send the dt to the physics update function?
22:09:30 <fizzie> I'm not sure the fee matters w.r.t. that. But perhaps more.
22:09:44 <fizzie> There's a bit over 20k members.
22:10:21 <fizzie> Of which 93% have working email addresses, as measured by the number of bounces for the meeting invitation, or something like that.
22:10:50 <fizzie> And there's a fee of 30 EUR when joining, which is what keeps the organization going; though the rate of getting new members has been slowing down the last couple of years. Which is quite understandable.
22:12:10 <fizzie> They do have some 440 kEUR of money collected and invested, though, which should be enough to keep things going for the next 15-20 years. And they're still getting enough new members to cover the bandwidth bills, though only just.
22:13:28 <fizzie> Also, technically the organization is supposed to in general promote Internet-related things; the name (Internet-käyttäjät ikuisesti, "Internet Users Forever") alludes to that. But the email thing is their most visible activity.
22:14:24 <fizzie> (There's also a HTTP redirection service thing, and a DNS .iki.fi subdomain thing; and they've been participating in relevant public discussion and projects and whatnot.)
22:16:50 <fizzie> There is an amusing resemblance between the IKI funding model and a pyramid scheme, though.
22:17:50 <fizzie> http://www.iki.fi/iki/statistics.html <- membership plot thing.
22:20:18 <fizzie> Their "reasons to join" list is delightfully antiquated; one of the listed reasons is "your email is in a X.400 system, with a long, dreary and hard-to-remember address".
22:21:24 <fizzie> Wonder how many people there are who still use an X.400 address, and communicate with "Internet people" through a SMTP gateway.
22:23:43 <olsner> zzo might have an X.400 address
22:24:02 <fizzie> I had one into some BBS system, but I've completely forgotten what it was.
22:27:40 <lambdabot> The operator `GHC.Num.-' [infixl 6] of a section
22:27:53 <fizzie> Also, I think X.400 was involved in the mail system at the insurance company where my mother worked at, 15-20 years ago. There were nasty email addresses, and some gateway-added messiness in emails.
22:29:50 <olsner> http://www.alvestrand.no/x400/debate/addressing.html has a nice table of x.400 attributes
22:30:12 <olsner> "those with PD- in front of them are used with X.400 networks that support delivery of mail by printing it onto paper and sending it to the postal service"
22:30:45 <Vorpal> <ais523> GOMADWarrior: not massively; it involves a context switch on most kernels, and those aren't particularly cheap <-- not on modern linux
22:30:57 <ais523> Vorpal: hmm, interesting
22:31:06 <ais523> or do you mean the cheapness, rather than the context switch?
22:32:18 <lambdabot> The operator `GHC.Real.^' [infixr 8] of a section
22:32:25 <Vorpal> ais523, I mean clock_gettime or gettimeofday does not involve a context switch
22:32:49 <ais523> Vorpal: do they read the timestamp directly from the CPU, then?
22:33:18 <fizzie> ais523: There is (was?) a gettimeofday optimilization so that it can read it from the vDSO page.
22:33:49 <Vorpal> ais523, vdso magic, it goes to the vdso, and reads a shared page (shared with the kernel that is), containing the timestamp. It does some checks to make sure it read a consistent s+ns combo (not atomic, iirc it checks an update-counter before and after and retries if that changed)
22:34:08 <ais523> so what's responsible for updating it? the MMU, upon detecing a read?
22:34:11 <ais523> or the kernel every tick?
22:34:36 <Vorpal> I don't remember exactly
22:34:56 <kmc> i think the kernel updates its periodically, and the user code uses RDTSC to get a delta from the last update
22:35:00 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway I'm pretty sure I mentioned this to you earlier, wrt Web of lies
22:35:21 <ais523> this seems like a lot of trouble to go to for optimising reading the common time
22:35:23 <Vorpal> ais523, also I don't think this is used on 32-bit x86, only 64-bit x86, though I'm not sure
22:35:29 <ais523> which can't be a very common operation
22:35:38 <kmc> if you had the MMU fault on every access to that page then it would not really be more efficient than a syscall
22:35:44 <kmc> ais523: a lot of code calls gettimeofday() very often
22:35:54 <ais523> kmc: that sounds kind-of broken
22:36:09 <kmc> well if you're benchmarking stuff, for one....
22:36:09 <ais523> although, you reminded me of stracing some SDL code
22:36:14 <kmc> you'd rather have a low overhead to benchmarking
22:36:33 <ais523> apparently it runs 1ms delays in a loop, and requests the current time each time round so it doesn't drift
22:36:34 <kmc> Mosh calls gettimeofday() often because it's recording the times of events, and scheduling events to occur at times in the future
22:36:54 <ais523> rather than delaying until the next time it actually has to do something, which would be the sensible option
22:37:11 <kmc> you can argue that this is 'broken' and Mosh should do more work to cache timestamps and fiddle with them
22:37:18 <kmc> and I think it does now, because of other platforms
22:37:40 <kmc> but the counter-argument is that the OS exists to provide useful abstractions to userspace and if cheap gettimeofday() is useful then it should provide it
22:37:53 <kmc> rather than every app reimplementing that gettimeofday() + RDTSC offset logic locally
22:37:56 <kmc> probably poorly
22:38:20 <kmc> one reason this routine is provided by the kernel is that the exact steps you want to take depend on what timer hardware is available
22:38:42 <Vorpal> also there is no guarantee that RDTSC is usable, unless your CPU has constant_tsc in /proc/cpuinfo flags
22:38:58 <fizzie> There's the automagic clocksource selection for that.
22:38:58 <Vorpal> my old early 64-bit Sempron didn't for example
22:39:14 <Fiora> geez, really? I thought that was standard...
22:39:16 <kmc> otherwise you need more help from the kernel to use it
22:39:30 <fizzie> Internet suggests that the vDSO approach is only enabled if /sys/devices/system/clocksource/clocksource0/current_clocksource is hpet or tsc, and further that if it's hpet, it doesn't really buy anything since getting time from hpet is slow enough.
22:39:49 <kmc> the kernel is aware of the events that can cause TSC jumps -- CPU clock speed changes, and rescheduling between cores
22:39:59 <fizzie> I don't think this does constant_tsc either, IIRC it's kind of a new thing really.
22:40:00 <Fiora> the intel manual says it was added in the pentium 1.... but yeah, like. geez, it's probably best to benchmark gettimeofday or something before deciding it's too slow...
22:40:07 <fizzie> Fiora: TSC != constant TSC.
22:40:14 <Fiora> what's constant TSC?
22:40:22 <fizzie> The one that doesn't jump around all the time.
22:40:27 <fizzie> Due to frequency scaling and whatnot.
22:40:37 <fizzie> (Also, there's something about TSC and multiple cores.)
22:40:37 <kmc> then there's also the question of whether it's syncronized between cores
22:40:48 <Fiora> yeah, that's an issue with rdtsc, I think in like all the recent intel chips it goes at the speed of the base clock, not the current clock
22:40:49 <Vorpal> you know, the flags list on a modern x86 CPU is kind of insane
22:40:52 <kmc> again, this is why you need the kernel's help if you want to extract a monotonic clock from the TSC
22:40:53 <Vorpal> flags: fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe syscall nx rdtscp lm constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts rep_good nopl xtopology nonstop_tsc aperfmperf pni pclmulqdq dtes64 monitor ds_cpl vmx smx est tm2 ssse3 cx16 xtpr pdcm pcid sse4_1 sse4_2 x2apic popcnt tsc_deadline_timer aes xsave avx lahf_lm ida arat epb xsaveopt pln p
22:40:53 <Vorpal> ts dtherm tpr_shadow vnmi flexpriority ept vpid
22:41:03 <Vorpal> and that is Sandy Bridge
22:41:06 <Vorpal> so not even the latest
22:41:40 <Fiora> flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe syscall nx pdpe1gb rdtscp lm constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts rep_good nopl xtopology nonstop_tsc aperfmperf eagerfpu pni pclmulqdq dtes64 monitor ds_cpl vmx est tm2 ssse3 fma cx16 xtpr pdcm
22:41:46 <Fiora> pcid sse4_1 sse4_2 movbe popcnt tsc_deadline_timer aes xsave avx f16c rdrand lahf_lm abm ida arat epb xsaveopt pln pts dtherm tpr_shadow vnmi flexpriority ept vpid fsgsbase tsc_adjust bmi1 avx2 smep bmi2 erms invpcid
22:42:08 <kmc> secret unreleased processor :P
22:42:20 <Vorpal> which one is haswell? the one after?
22:42:20 <kmc> Fiora: it has SMEP but does it have SMAP?
22:42:49 * Fiora looks it up. "Supervisor Mode Access Prevention?"
22:42:55 <kmc> prevents the kernel from accessing userspace data when it meant to access kernel data
22:43:09 <Vorpal> Fiora, hey, wikipedia says Haswell is "under development". Seriously, what are you using :P
22:43:18 <kmc> you know, that thing that we had with segmentation 20 years ago
22:43:36 <Fiora> I wonder if that might be a Broadwell instruction?
22:43:45 <Fiora> along with RDSEED and ADOX or whatever weird things
22:44:07 <kmc> Vorpal: same but prevents it from executing userspace code
22:44:11 <fizzie> flags: fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe syscall nx rdtscp lm constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts rep_good nopl xtopology nonstop_tsc aperfmperf pni pclmulqdq dtes64 monitor ds_cpl vmx smx est tm2 ssse3 cx16 xtpr pdcm pcid sse4_1 sse4_2 x2apic popcnt tsc_deadline_timer aes xsave avx f16c rdrand lahf_lm ida ...
22:44:17 <fizzie> ... arat epb xsaveopt pln pts dtherm tpr_shadow vnmi flexpriority ept vpid fsgsbase smep erms well, it doesn't lose a *whole lot*. (But it was the workstation at work.)
22:44:29 <Fiora> fizzie: ohhh. I wonder if my kernel is actually too old to detect it?
22:44:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is a ...?
22:44:58 <Fiora> huh. it's 3.8.3...
22:45:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: Ivy Bridge Xeon, I think. I don't know how the numbers go. It does have a "3" in it.
22:45:07 <Fiora> I wonder why there's no smap then.
22:45:18 <Fiora> maybe it's like a market segmentation thing where only the server chips have smap ?
22:45:19 <fizzie> Also a "V2" in it, I think that was also relevant.
22:45:23 <fizzie> "Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E3-1230 V2 @ 3.30GHz"
22:45:42 <Vorpal> Linux tux 3.2.0-4-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 3.2.39-2 x86_64 GNU/Linux <-- I clearly stopped caring about being on the latest kernel all the time
22:45:51 <Vorpal> I have better stuff to do than compile kernels...
22:46:03 <Fiora> Vorpal: hee hee. it is a haswell :3
22:46:07 <fizzie> At home my flags are fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush mmx fxsr sse sse2 ht syscall nx mmxext fxsr_opt rdtscp lm 3dnowext 3dnow rep_good nopl extd_apicid pni cx16 lahf_lm cmp_legacy svm extapic cr8_legacy which is really very short, compared to all that.
22:46:21 <Fiora> engineering samples~
22:46:25 * lambdabot pulls Fiora through the Evil Mangler
22:46:31 <Vorpal> Fiora, oooh, who do you work for? Heh.
22:46:41 <shachaf> That's for having a Haswell!
22:46:52 <Fiora> awhg. you want one?
22:46:52 <fizzie> Has well, will travel.
22:47:09 <Vorpal> Fiora, you work for intel or a motherboard manufacturer?
22:47:12 * Fiora would looove one for her own computer but
22:47:25 <Vorpal> or why would you have an engineering sample?
22:47:28 <Fiora> all I have is ssh access without root to a test box that is somewhere
22:47:39 <Fiora> ummm I'm using it mostly to write avx2 code
22:48:00 <Fiora> intel/amd send out engineering samples to a bunch of companies in the months before release for various things I think
22:48:15 <Fiora> I'd guess board manufacturers and stuff get them first, then people doing software work and stuff?
22:48:21 <Vorpal> Fiora, Now I'm really curious. Who would be writing AVX2 code at this stage. Compiler writers?
22:48:26 <Fiora> I really have no involvement in any of it, so >_<
22:48:33 <shachaf> imo you should answer Vorpal's question
22:49:07 <fizzie> "it87: Beeping is supported", says my boot-time dmesg. (it87 is one of those sensors chipsets.)
22:49:27 <fizzie> I haven't heard it beep, though.
22:49:31 <Fiora> gosh, it's too much fun not answering the question though!
22:49:31 <fizzie> But apparently beeping is supported.
22:49:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't think I even have a PC speaker on this thing btw
22:49:48 <fizzie> It might beep over something else, for all I know.
22:50:06 <fizzie> I'm trying to find the usual TSC-related message I always get at boot.
22:50:35 <Vorpal> hm my boot is outside the circular buffer of dmesg
22:50:36 <fizzie> Hm, I think the wording has changed.
22:50:46 <fizzie> "Marking TSC unstable due to TSCs unsynchronized", is what it says.
22:50:55 <Vorpal> cat: /var/log/dmesg: Permission denied
22:51:12 <fizzie> (And I don't have tsc in the available_clocksource list.)
22:51:18 <shachaf> kmc: are you one of Today's Fad-Crazed Teens
22:51:31 <Vorpal> [ 0.000000] Initializing cgroup subsys cpuset
22:51:31 <Vorpal> [ 0.000000] Initializing cgroup subsys cpu
22:51:31 <Vorpal> [ 0.000000] Linux version 3.2.0-4-amd64 (debian-kernel@lists.debian.org) (gcc version 4.6.3 (Debian 4.6.3-15) ) #1 SMP Debian 3.2.39-2
22:51:39 <Vorpal> cgroup are *REALLY* early
22:51:46 <shachaf> http://o.onionstatic.com/images/21/21198/original/700.hq.jpg
22:52:18 <fizzie> There's quite a bit of 0.000000's.
22:52:28 <kmc> shachaf: yup
22:52:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, also it is always fun to run dmidecode on a home built computer. Usually a lot of "none" or "1234" or "to be filled by OEM"
22:52:40 <shachaf> I,I [ 0.000000] Initializing clock
22:53:41 <Vorpal> shachaf, that would be about the last 0.000000 line?
22:53:56 <fizzie> I don't think this has all that much. But it has some amount of empty fields.
22:54:01 <Vorpal> [ 0.000000] hpet clockevent registered
22:54:01 <Vorpal> [ 0.000000] Fast TSC calibration using PIT
22:54:01 <Vorpal> [ 0.004000] Detected 3310.564 MHz processor.
22:54:01 <Vorpal> [ 0.000001] Calibrating delay loop (skipped), value calculated using timer frequency.. 6621.12 BogoMIPS (lpj=13242256)
22:54:01 <Vorpal> [ 0.000004] pid_max: default: 32768 minimum: 301
22:54:05 <Vorpal> well THAT is interesting
22:54:16 <Vorpal> what the hell happened with that timestamp
22:54:35 <fizzie> "Version: x.x" "Serial Number: Tue Jan 01 00:01:46 2008."
22:54:42 <fizzie> That looks more like a date than a serial number to me.
22:54:48 <ais523> so is all that actually happening within 1µs?
22:54:56 <ais523> or has the timer simply not started running?
22:55:11 <shachaf> Linux Kernel has come unstuck in time.
22:55:24 <Vorpal> ais523, the time jumped *back*...
22:55:33 <Vorpal> that is what confuses me
22:55:38 <ais523> Vorpal: yeah, I was talkign about earlier
22:56:00 <Vorpal> ais523, but yeah, until the timer is started all timestamps will be 0
22:56:07 <Vorpal> can't say how long that took
22:56:15 <Vorpal> probably a few seconds at most
22:56:38 <olsner> are the dmesg timestamps in seconds since boot?
22:56:58 <Vorpal> Asset Tag: Asset-1234567890
22:57:07 <Vorpal> Location In Chassis: To be filled by O.E.M.
22:57:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is the location of the motherboard in the chassis, not sure why that info would be there
22:57:34 <fizzie> "Yama: becoming mindful." (more dmesg).
22:57:35 <fizzie> (It's that PTRACE limitation thing and such.)
22:57:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is the massive board taking up most of the side of the chassis, why would there be a tag for the location
22:58:03 <Fiora> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=58770 seeeeee haswells exist and wow she got one months before I did too
22:58:17 <fizzie> I have just "Asset Tag:" with an empty field there.
22:59:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, I have so many entries for SATA ports heh
22:59:14 <Vorpal> (this board has a LOT of them)
22:59:51 <fizzie> There's one entry for each USB port here, too. All terribly useful.
22:59:57 * Fiora actually found that bug report by googling the microcode number of the CPU (I have no idea what this is but it looked unique)
22:59:58 <Vorpal> Handle 0x002B, DMI type 11, 5 bytes
22:59:58 <Vorpal> String 1: To Be Filled By O.E.M.
22:59:58 <Vorpal> String 2: To Be Filled By O.E.M.
22:59:59 <Vorpal> String 3: To Be Filled By O.E.M.
23:00:00 <Vorpal> String 4: To Be Filled By O.E.M.
23:00:18 <fizzie> "Internal Reference Designator: USB" "Internal Connector Type: None" "External Reference Designator:" "External Connector Type: Access Bus (USB)" "Port Type: USB"
23:00:23 <fizzie> They all say exactly the same thing.
23:00:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, all the fan power connectors are there too
23:00:54 <Vorpal> Handle 0x001A, DMI type 8, 9 bytes
23:00:54 <Vorpal> Port Connector Information
23:00:54 <Vorpal> Internal Reference Designator: USB3_34
23:00:54 <Vorpal> Internal Connector Type: Access Bus (USB)
23:00:55 <Vorpal> External Reference Designator: Not Specified
23:00:56 <Vorpal> External Connector Type: None
23:01:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, hey my USB are different!
23:01:16 <olsner> apparently my dmesg buffer spans 41 days
23:01:28 <Vorpal> all the PCI Express slots are there
23:01:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: You've got actual names for them, I see.
23:02:02 <fizzie> Vorpal: Looked at laptop's dmidecode, there they've decided to write "Not Applicable" to just about everything.
23:02:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah, I don't have 34 USB ports though, there is a jump from USB_12 to USB_34 for example
23:02:10 <olsner> and I reached 2^8 days uptime today
23:02:20 <Vorpal> Handle 0x002F, DMI type 26, 22 bytes
23:02:20 <Vorpal> Location: <OUT OF SPEC>
23:02:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: Base Board Information: "Version: Not Applicable" "Serial Number: Not Applicable" "Asset Tag: Not Applicable" "Location In Chassis: Not Applicable"
23:03:02 <fizzie> I would assume there's a (theoretical, at least) connector for USB ports 1 and 2 (USB_12) and for ports 3 and 4 (USB_34).
23:03:02 <Vorpal> also accuracy, tolerance and resolution are unknown for that probe
23:03:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, actually that is USB3_34, not USB_34
23:03:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, USB7_8 USB9_10 USB11_12 USB3_34
23:03:48 <fizzie> Chassis: "Version: Not Applicable" "Serial Number: Not Applicable" "Asset Tag: Not Applicable" "Height: Unspecified" "Number Of Power Cords: 1"
23:04:03 <fizzie> Good that they've bothered to specify the number of power cords, at least.
23:04:20 <Vorpal> Temperature Probe Handle: 0x0032
23:04:26 <Vorpal> Electrical Current Probe
23:04:26 <Vorpal> Location: <OUT OF SPEC>
23:04:35 <fizzie> DMI information is such a mess.
23:04:46 <Vorpal> my PSU's type is OUT OF SPEC too
23:05:01 <fizzie> Yeah, and this says "Voltage: 0.0 V" for my CPU 1.
23:05:06 <Vorpal> well I assume "System Power Supply" is PSU
23:05:11 <fizzie> I guess it runs on something else than electricity.
23:05:32 <kmc> itt: dmidecode
23:05:41 <Vorpal> kmc, what does itt mean?
23:05:51 <FreeFull> What do you guys think about Idris?
23:05:53 <fizzie> In This Thread, I've always assumed.
23:05:56 <fizzie> Hey, the Processor Information does have your-style "Serial Number: To Be Filled By O.E.M." "Asset Tag: To Be Filled By O.E.M." "Part Number: To Be Filled By O.E.M.".
23:05:58 <Vorpal> FreeFull, what is that
23:06:26 <kmc> In This Thread
23:06:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is tons more "To Be Filled By O.E.M." all over the place
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23:07:11 * FireFly has a ton of those as well. You'd think they'd bother to fill it out for pre-built machines at least
23:07:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, seems my BIOS support multiple languages:
23:07:16 <Vorpal> BIOS Language Information
23:07:16 <Vorpal> Language Description Format: Abbreviated
23:07:16 <Vorpal> Installable Languages: 6
23:07:26 <Vorpal> Currently Installed Language: en-
23:07:38 <Vorpal> which is strange, since I don't HAVE a BIOS
23:07:43 <olsner> I'm glad your bios doesn't support more languages anyway
23:07:47 <FreeFull> Vorpal: A dependent typing programming language with syntax somewhat similar to Haskell
23:07:59 <olsner> bah, uefi is just another name for bios
23:08:01 <Vorpal> olsner, spammy isn't it XD
23:08:12 <FreeFull> uefi doesn't do a lot of things a bios does
23:08:15 <Vorpal> $ sudo dmidecode | wc -l
23:08:25 <Vorpal> olsner, I should /msg you the entire thing ;P
23:08:38 <olsner> I only have 739 lines of dmidecode crud
23:09:03 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/jUAd <- best battery info ever.
23:09:22 <fizzie> I suppose I can't say that e.g. "Manufacturer: Battery Manufacturer" would be untrue.
23:09:23 <Vorpal> to be fair, that is an UEFI running in BIOS emulation mode, because I couldn't be bothered setting up GUID partition tables anyway (I use mdraid and LVM2 anyway)
23:09:45 <fizzie> (I'm pretty sure the "Chemistry" field is completely bonkers, though.)
23:09:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, nice 0x12345678
23:10:08 <olsner> my system version is "System Version" with serial number "System Serial Number"
23:10:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, presumably chemistry = 0 = NiCd or something
23:10:27 <fizzie> I'm a bit surprised they didn't write "Design Capacity: Design Capacity" too. (But maybe that only accepts numbers.)
23:10:36 <Vorpal> olsner, yep:Serial Number: System Serial Number
23:10:41 <FireFly> "OEM-specific Information: 0x12345678" well, that's helpful..
23:10:51 <Vorpal> olsner, same as you for the version too
23:11:13 <Vorpal> it is only x86 that has DMI right?=
23:11:32 <fizzie> The laptop is also full of "Nominal Speed: Unknown Or Non-rotating" cooling devices.
23:11:34 <Vorpal> $ sudo dmidecode | wc -l
23:11:58 <Vorpal> that one has sensible values from what I can see
23:12:03 <Vorpal> Version: ThinkPad R500
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23:12:16 <fizzie> 573 on the desktop, 853 on the laptop. But of course the laptop's a lot newer; I would assume these things tend to increase as a function of time, generally.
23:12:33 <Vorpal> Handle 0x0015, DMI type 8, 9 bytes
23:12:33 <Vorpal> Port Connector Information
23:12:33 <Vorpal> Internal Reference Designator: Not Available
23:12:33 <Vorpal> Internal Connector Type: None
23:12:33 <Vorpal> External Reference Designator: USB 2
23:12:34 <Vorpal> External Connector Type: Access Bus (USB)
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23:13:12 <FireFly> Surely it must have *some* to-be-filled fields?
23:13:31 <Vorpal> FireFly, it has one OUT OF SPEC field, the "Memory Device" type field
23:13:51 <fizzie> Hey, there's a second battery in my laptop too.
23:14:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, here is my battery: http://sprunge.us/OSGP
23:14:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, a lot of OEM-specific type with just a hex dump though
23:14:39 <Vorpal> there are NO dummy values on my laptop
23:14:47 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/BSBb -- both are located at "Location of the battery", but at least the other one is called "BATT 1" instead of "Battery Name", and also has known design numbers.
23:15:19 <fizzie> Though I don't think the numbers are correct.
23:15:32 <olsner> now, which battery is in the location of which battery?
23:15:33 <fizzie> Unless it's some sort of a backup battery somewhere.
23:16:05 <Vorpal> Handle 0x0028, DMI type 11, 5 bytes
23:16:05 <Vorpal> String 1: IBM ThinkPad Embedded Controller -[7VHT16WW-1.06 ]-
23:16:12 <Vorpal> what do you mean "5 bytes"
23:16:21 <Vorpal> that string looks much longer
23:16:22 <olsner> I guess they could've put the cmos battery in the dmi data? I wonder why though
23:16:45 <olsner> guess: the entry has a pointer to a string table
23:17:03 <Vorpal> Modem ring resume is supported
23:17:16 <Vorpal> well it actually *does* have a built in modem
23:17:21 <Vorpal> so I suppose that is possible
23:17:37 <fizzie> 427 lines of dmidecode cruft on the Atom box; a "personal best" so far.
23:17:39 <Vorpal> Zoom Video is supported <-- what?
23:17:49 <kmc> 739 lines here
23:18:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, I assume it would be length 0 on my Raspberry Pi
23:19:13 <fizzie> Zoom Video (or something with a really similar name) had something to do with video-out-via-PCMCIA-slot.
23:19:18 <fizzie> Well, PC Card, I guess.
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23:19:27 <Vorpal> oh, well it does have a PCMCIA slot
23:19:38 <Vorpal> well, one PC Card and one Express Card
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23:20:44 <Vorpal> 5.25"/1.2 MB floppy services are supported (int 13h)
23:20:44 <Vorpal> 3.5"/720 kB floppy services are supported (int 13h)
23:20:44 <Vorpal> 3.5"/2.88 MB floppy services are supported (int 13h)
23:21:13 <Vorpal> Printer services are supported (int 17h) <-- that would be parport?
23:21:23 <Vorpal> I don't have a parallel port
23:21:57 <olsner> iki.fi should watch out for those printer services
23:22:08 <Vorpal> 8042 keyboard services are supported (int 9h)
23:22:15 <Vorpal> is that a PS/2 keyboard?
23:22:21 <Vorpal> I do have a PS/2 connector
23:22:24 <olsner> yes, or the controller for it
23:22:42 <fizzie> No (or not much, at least) nonsense entries on the Fujitsu-Siemens Lifebook, either. OTOH, it's a "real" laptop.
23:22:45 <fizzie> fungot: I'm talking about your machine, by the way.
23:22:46 <fungot> fizzie: break for dinner. haven say wat u nd leh!! mug mug. now we can get an early spring is coming early yay hahaha btw today i cmi for run...paiseh....
23:22:58 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms* speeches ss wp youtube
23:23:00 <fizzie> Don't know what "mug mug" means.
23:23:06 <fungot> Selected style: enron (subset of the Enron email dataset)
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23:23:42 <Vorpal> Port Connector Information
23:23:44 <Vorpal> Internal Reference Designator: GbE LAN
23:23:44 <Vorpal> Internal Connector Type: None
23:23:44 <Vorpal> External Reference Designator: GbE LAN
23:23:44 <Vorpal> External Connector Type: RJ-45
23:23:44 <Vorpal> Port Type: Network Port
23:23:50 <Vorpal> I don't think that is technically correc
23:24:12 <fizzie> Doesn't it have a RJ-45 hole in it?
23:24:13 <Vorpal> I'm pretty sure ethernet is not "proper" RJ-45, though it is the same connector
23:24:51 <fizzie> It's a reasonable name, though.
23:24:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, I thought RJ-45 required a specific wiring scheme (wrt which colors go to which pins), which was not used for ethernet
23:25:01 <fizzie> Nobody knows what you mean if you say "8P8C" or something.
23:25:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, my laptop makes the same mistake though
23:25:32 <olsner> mug mug sounds like it should mean something
23:25:43 <ion> fizzie: I do. :-P
23:25:48 <Vorpal> Handle 0x0012, DMI type 8, 9 bytes
23:25:48 <Vorpal> Port Connector Information
23:25:48 <Vorpal> Internal Reference Designator: Not Available
23:25:48 <Vorpal> Internal Connector Type: None
23:25:48 <Vorpal> External Reference Designator: Modem
23:25:49 <Vorpal> External Connector Type: RJ-11
23:25:58 <Vorpal> Handle 0x0013, DMI type 8, 9 bytes
23:26:00 <Vorpal> Port Connector Information
23:26:02 <Vorpal> Internal Reference Designator: Not Available
23:26:04 <Vorpal> Internal Connector Type: None
23:26:06 <Vorpal> External Reference Designator: Ethernet
23:26:08 <Vorpal> External Connector Type: RJ-45
23:26:10 <Vorpal> Port Type: Network Port
23:26:12 <Vorpal> I guess the RJ-11 one IS correct though
23:26:26 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
23:28:11 <Vorpal> Print screen service is supported (int 5h)
23:28:37 <Vorpal> oh, actual print screen
23:29:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw, my chassis is empty: Contained Elements: 0
23:29:50 <Vorpal> also, how do you configure those DMI strings heh
23:30:25 <Sgeo> I made a commit today!
23:30:37 <fizzie> To quote man dmidecode: "BUGS: More often than not, information contained in the DMI tables is inaccurate, incomplete or simply wrong."
23:30:48 <olsner> Sgeo: welcome to the world of version control!
23:31:08 <Sgeo> Also, fuck Eclipse
23:32:33 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I feel sorry for you
23:32:41 <Sgeo> What's so terrible about SVN?
23:32:42 <Vorpal> ais523, at least that isn't VSS
23:32:49 <olsner> RCS over a shared smb filesystem?
23:32:49 <ais523> and yeah, VSS is a disaster
23:32:58 <ais523> olsner: sounds about as reliable as VSS
23:33:15 <Vorpal> ais523, also Vault, a VSS compatible software, but slightly less buggy
23:33:16 <shachaf> fizzie: No DMI table can be both consistent and complete.
23:33:18 <olsner> is rcs at all safe against multiple users?
23:33:35 <fizzie> In version control news, we're putting (most of) our recognizer thing into github in the next few months.
23:33:42 <ais523> olsner: yeah, it just refuses to commit if someone else is using it at the time
23:33:46 <Vorpal> ais523, it was used many years ago at the place I work (hg nowdays), but I recently had to get some old code from it.
23:33:56 <ais523> as in, you explicitly have to cede control of the file and let someone else work on it
23:34:11 <ais523> so it's safe via lack of functionality
23:35:27 <olsner> indeed, if it doesn't work in the first place, it can't break
23:35:41 <fizzie> I know one former VSS shop, but I forget what they migrated to. Perhaps Perforce?
23:35:48 <ais523> olsner: it also detects that it's in a situation it doesn't work
23:35:50 <ais523> fizzie: that seems reasonable
23:35:59 <Vorpal> ais523, why is that reasonable?
23:36:10 <ais523> from what I've heard, perforce is the only paid-for non-d vcs that actually has advantages in some situations
23:36:18 <Vorpal> I know nothing about Perforce... Wait isn't that a build system? Perforce Jam or something?
23:36:27 <fizzie> ais523: It's got some kind of git client support these days.
23:36:40 <Vorpal> ais523, what advantages would that be?
23:36:44 <ais523> Vorpal: perforce is a CVCS with support for very large files, most notably
23:36:54 <fizzie> http://www.perforce.com/product/components/git-fusion
23:37:11 <Vorpal> ais523, I can put a massive file in hg. It isn't going to be a good idea, but I can.
23:37:15 <fizzie> "Perforce Git Fusion removes the bottlenecks that come from using Git while also making Git more productive. Git Fusion is a seamless addition to the Perforce distributed version management environment. That means Git developers can continue to use their preferred tools unchanged. Release managers can assemble their projects using tried-and-true engineering processes. And administrators have ...
23:37:21 <fizzie> ... enterprise-class IP security, availability and visibility across all projects and teams."
23:38:04 <Vorpal> ais523, or rather, it isn't going to be a good idea if it is also a binary file
23:38:06 <fizzie> Presumably what that means is that they've heard developers like Git, but they'd still want to sell stuff, so they've hobbled together a thing that lets you clone a Perforce repo with git, and push stuff to it.
23:38:11 <Vorpal> a massive text file wouldn't be an issue
23:38:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, it also gives "enterprise class IP security"
23:38:45 <ais523> Vorpal: we're talking about things like the entire assets for an AAA 3D computer game
23:38:52 <ais523> the idea being that you can still control versions
23:38:53 <fizzie> Or possibly make parts of a Perforce megathing into a set of configured Git repositories.
23:38:56 <ais523> even though it isn't text
23:38:56 <Vorpal> ais523, right, so binary files then
23:39:12 <Vorpal> ais523, but what about merging
23:39:18 -!- Madoka-Kaname has changed nick to Lymia.
23:39:24 <olsner> so by bolting on perforce you can avoid "making your Git developers use bolted-on tools"?
23:39:35 <Vorpal> Lymia, yes, we were talking about Perforce, not git
23:39:58 <shachaf> TWIST: ALL FILES ARE BINARY FILES
23:40:11 <FreeFull> shachaf: Not on trinary storage media
23:40:16 <fizzie> olsner: I guess the common use case is that you're already doing Perforce.
23:41:30 <Vorpal> I'm pretty sure "ternary" is the correct word though
23:41:47 <Vorpal> FreeFull, and don't be silly, that would be octarian of course!
23:42:16 <Vorpal> wait, no, not good point
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23:43:12 <Vorpal> FreeFull, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ternary_numeral_system "Ternary (sometimes called trinary)" <-- clearly ternary is more common according to wikipedia (a source you can always trust ;)
23:43:27 <Vorpal> dammit, I hate making smilies inside parens
23:43:57 <olsner> use smileys that don't involve parens, like I,I
23:43:59 <Bike_> (a source you can always trust ;\))
23:44:17 <Vorpal> Jafet, hm, the length of the file would uniquely identify the file
23:44:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: One thing I know Perforce has is plugins into things like Photoshop and 3ds Max, so that the artists can also be using it. (Probably won't do anything for merging that kind of stuff, but still helps.)
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23:45:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, I wonder what those provide then
23:45:42 <fizzie> Vorpal: I assume the same sort of thing version control plugins for an IDE would.
23:45:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't really use those
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23:47:13 <fizzie> Also, apparently Perforce's P4Merge can diff images visually.
23:47:36 <Vorpal> but can it merge them?
23:47:47 <Vorpal> also, good look doing that with vector graphics
23:48:42 <Jafet> Vector images are...
23:49:12 <Vorpal> Jafet, could be using a binary encoding
23:49:30 <Vorpal> but I'm pretty sure there were vector graphics before svg
23:52:17 <fizzie> Turns out it was Surround SCM they migrated to. (I understand it tries to do a bit more configuration-managementy stuff.)
23:52:19 <FreeFull> Flash does vector images that aren't text
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01:04:34 <hagb4rd> happy easter egg http://178.63.82.135:9090
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01:32:17 <hagb4rd> i hope the record goes well
01:33:29 <Sgeo> Fuck Eclipse, fuck Eclipse, I'll see your ass in Eclipse, I'll see you down in hell, Pachelbel... erm, Eclipse
01:33:35 <Arc_Koen> it reminds me of the film sound of noise
01:33:51 <hagb4rd> sound of noise..sounds interesting
01:34:12 <pikhq> It's like the sound of music, only less musical.
01:36:05 <Arc_Koen> hagb4rd: first look for "music for one apartment and six drummers"
01:36:11 <Arc_Koen> it's a short film (less than ten minutes)
01:36:32 <Arc_Koen> apparently it was quite successful so they made the film on the same idea
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01:37:53 <hagb4rd2> @tell hagb4rd <Arc_Koen>hagb4rd: first look for "music for one apartment and six drummers" | the film sound of noise
01:38:17 -!- hagb4rd2 has changed nick to hagb4rdoux.
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01:43:42 <Sgeo> And . to you too!
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01:49:58 <Arc_Koen> ah well, my spelling was close :)
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01:50:52 <hagb4rdoux> zug would be train.. and abend evening :)
01:51:37 <Arc_Koen> yes that's why it didn't make that much sense to me
01:51:58 <Arc_Koen> except as the title of some horror movies with zombies in a train
01:53:23 <hagb4rdoux> hm.. i somehow feel like goin out and check one of tose easter-parties
01:53:59 <Arc_Koen> I was thinking about easter eggs in video games or films or that kind of stuff
01:56:29 <Arc_Koen> did some guys hid chocolate eggs all around their place and people search for them?
01:56:30 <hagb4rdoux> basically with girls, drugs and rocknroll
01:57:29 <Arc_Koen> well if you don't need to wake up early tomorrow morning I'd say go for it!
01:59:13 <Arc_Koen> we usually just get the monday
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01:59:58 <Arc_Koen> and also I'm not exactly employed at the moment
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02:11:36 <Arc_Koen> hagb4rdoux: so how many people are performing?
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02:11:49 <Arc_Koen> (in that easter thing I'm currently listening to)
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02:17:19 <Arc_Koen> I'm gonna head to bed, have a good party
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02:30:25 <ais523> hey, have we laughed at gprolog recently? or ever?
02:30:58 <Bike> is it like gnu smalltalk
02:31:57 <Bike> The performances of GNU Prolog are very encouraging (comparable to commercial systems).
02:32:10 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: "constrain to be greater than", except that it sometimes fails for no apparent reason
02:32:19 <ais523> #># is the version that doesn't sometimes fail for no apparent reason, it's slower
02:32:22 <ais523> and that's a gprolog extension
02:32:28 <ais523> so SWI probably doesn't understand it at all
02:32:38 <ais523> | ?- X1 * Y1 #= 24; X2 * Y2 #= 25.
02:32:48 <ais523> there's an example of "sometimes fails for no apparent reason"
02:32:50 <Bike> So it takes fourteen and a half seconds to tell you that > is antireflexive?
02:33:05 <ais523> | ?- X1 * Y1 #=# 24; X2 * Y2 #=# 25.
02:33:06 <ais523> X1 = _#3(1..4:6:8:12:24@)
02:33:08 <ais523> Y1 = _#22(1..4:6:8:12:24@) ? ;
02:33:15 <ais523> there's the fixed version with #=#, by the way
02:33:18 <Bike> What the hell's happening there, like... is it trying every number or something
02:33:28 <ais523> Bike: it's doing what I told it to do
02:33:40 <ais523> find X1, Y1, X2, Y2 such that X1*Y1=24, or X2*Y2=25
02:33:50 <Bike> I mean with the #> thing.
02:34:02 <ais523> yeah, I'm guessing it tries every number
02:34:20 <ais523> between 0 and its maxint
02:34:24 <ais523> which is a bit lower than the usual maxint
02:34:33 <Bike> shachaf: something something hypermegaultrafinitism
02:35:07 <ais523> the fact that that's around twice as much makes me wonder
02:35:59 <tswett> Say, I thought of something. Currently, programming languages and program operation are intimately tied together.
02:36:12 <tswett> If you want to write a program that works like a Python program, you have to write it in Python; you can't write it in Haskell.
02:36:51 <tswett> I wonder if there's some way you could divorce language from behavior. I mean, in any programming language, you're essentially defining the behaviors of a bunch of tiny objects.
02:37:11 <Bike> Well what do you mean by "language" exactly
02:37:44 <tswett> Maybe you could come up with some programming language that's perfectly good at expressing Python programs, Haskell programs, C++ programs, and what have you.
02:37:57 <ais523> also hilarious is "findall(X,current_atom(X),Y)."
02:38:07 <tswett> Bike: I may have used it with different meanings in different places.
02:38:08 <ais523> GNU Prolog only supports the use of a capped finite number of strings, ever
02:38:13 <ais523> that lists the strings that have been used so far
02:38:29 <Bike> that's beautiful ais
02:38:33 <ais523> it contains strings like '/home/diaz/GP/src/src/BipsPl/type_inl.pl'
02:38:58 <ais523> and '/build/buildd/gprolog-1.3.0/src/BipsFD/fd_bool.pl'
02:39:09 <ais523> Perl is capable of handling arbitrarily many strings over the lifetime of a program
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02:39:32 <Bike> Yeah, I just thought it would be funny if the prolog system was written in Perl.
02:39:43 <ais523> also a lot of debug messages, an the like
02:39:52 <ais523> Bike: Prolog doesn't look very like Perl at all
02:39:59 <Bike> tswett: But I mean, it's not that hard to throw on a different parser; I imagine you mean something more interesting.
02:40:07 <Bike> ais523: .pl is used for perl, isn't it?
02:40:20 <Bike> So I've learned.
02:40:24 <ais523> although Perl seems to win that battle, so I use .pro for Prolog
02:40:50 <ais523> I think that one's also already taken :)
02:41:14 <ais523> .pro is also already taken according to Emacs, but it clashes with something I've never heard of
02:41:25 <zzo38> Multiple posedge signals is OK in discrete logic, so I didn't know that it is not valid in FPGA. Is there a way to make it valid? I think some FPGA have multiple clock input?
02:42:12 <tswett> So, uh, take a Haskell definition like this one:
02:42:27 <ais523> zzo38: most FPGAs will work with one, complain but mostly work with two and maybe three, and fail with much more
02:42:37 <ais523> basically, they have to use clock circuitry for anything that is used in posedge
02:42:44 <ais523> and they have a lot more logic circuitry than clock circuitry
02:42:55 <ais523> also they can't drive the same register from more than one clock
02:43:00 <tswett> What's the behavior of that definition? It's to create a constant thunk of type Char that, when evaluated, yields the character 'a'.
02:43:21 <Bike> I'm not sure what you just said is Haskell semantics, strictly speaking?
02:43:24 <Bike> Like... what's "create".
02:43:27 <ais523> yeah; and in this case, that's equivalent to making ch an alias for 'a', which is what the same line would do in Algol
02:43:35 <ais523> Bike: talking about Haskell semantics in a general discussion is a bad idea
02:43:51 <Bike> Well yes semantics are egh, but I mean it doesn't have to mean creating anything, does it?
02:43:51 <ais523> because there are so many simplifying assumptions that are true of Haskell but not in general
02:43:52 <tswett> Well, by "create" I guess I mean something like "declare the existence of" or whatever.
02:43:56 <ais523> and Haskell programers act like they're always correct
02:44:07 <zzo38> ais523: O, so something like always@(posedge X) Z<=0; always@(posedge Y) Z<=1; is not allowed; is that what you mean?
02:44:17 <ais523> zzo38: yeah, a typical FPGA physically can't implement that
02:44:19 <kmc> thunks aren't part of Haskell semantics, the language doesn't guarantee lazy evaulation, only non-strict semantics
02:44:28 <zzo38> (Well, in that case there are race conditions too)
02:44:33 <kmc> also I would probably not call that a thunk anyway, because there's no application to reduce
02:44:35 <ais523> a sufficiently good synthesizer might be able to translate it into something they could implement that did the same thing, but it'd be much more complicated
02:44:42 <tswett> kmc: yeah, fair enough.
02:44:48 <kmc> Char is an abstract data type, so it's implementation defined
02:44:56 <pikhq> I'm not sure where my mind is, but I read "posedge" as "Poseidon".
02:44:56 <kmc> but there's a good chance that 'a' is already in weak head-normal form
02:45:08 <tswett> It declares *something* that can be queried to yield the bits and bytes representing the character 'a'.
02:45:09 <ais523> actually, no it couldn't
02:45:30 <kmc> you can't really get the bits and bytes
02:45:32 <Bike> Bits and bytes huh.
02:45:38 <ais523> if X becomes 0, Y becomes 0, X becomes 1, Y becomes 1 in that order, there's no circuitry that exists in a typical FPGA that could create a clock that could clock the register on both positive edges
02:45:46 <Bike> And what querying, does haskell have querying?
02:45:54 <kmc> you can't observe whether your implementation stores Char as UTF-8 or UTF-32, any more than you can observe whether it stores Int in big-endian or little-endian order
02:45:59 <ais523> what if you had more than one register?
02:46:00 <kmc> it's just not relevant
02:46:11 <tswett> I'm talking about if you were to translate the definition "ch = 'a'" into C or something.
02:46:24 <kmc> Bike: \ldots
02:46:29 <ais523> actually, I think you could do it with four registers
02:46:35 <Bike> Well in C it's an assignment. That's pretty different from a Haskell binding.
02:46:37 <ais523> this is actually an interesting esoprogramming experiment
02:46:48 <Bike> kmc: I don't remember what that is :(
02:47:06 <tswett> \ldots is a low horizontal ellipsis, like …
02:47:11 <zzo38> ais523: There might be possibility; is there a program to convert "portable Verilog" into what is needed for specific FPGA or whatever is being used?
02:47:26 <zzo38> I think such thing might be useful if you cannot otherwise write a portable Verilog code.
02:47:33 <ais523> always@(posedge X) Q[0:1]=R[0:1]+1; always@(posedge Y) R[0:1]=Q[0:1]+1; assign Z=(Q-R)[1]
02:47:36 <Bike> Oh. Well maybe your bicycle is going to penetrate you and you'll just have to deal.
02:48:05 <ais523> zzo38: and yes; FPGAs have custom input formats, but they all come with compilers (which tend to be very expensive) to convert portable Verilog into their own input format
02:48:11 <tswett> zzo38: I guess I figured that what you'd do is just only write Verilog that works on all of the FPGAs you want to target.
02:48:14 <pikhq> tswett: It could create a thunk resulting in the UTF-32 encoding of 'a'. Alternately, it could create a thunk resulting in a Church numeral.
02:48:32 <tswett> pikhq: indeed, but the latter behavior would be annoying if you wanted to query this thing from C.
02:48:39 <ais523> tswett: well my Verity compiler outputs portable VHDL, and could be made to output portable Verilog upon similar lines
02:48:40 <pikhq> Yes, but it would be doable.
02:48:40 <zzo38> tswett: Well, I don't want to only target any specific group of FPGAs; anyways I want it to work with ASIC too, and also with simulation.
02:48:49 * pikhq has done Church numerals in C. :)
02:48:56 <ais523> zzo38: you shouldn't have problems if you stick to the synthesizable subset of standard Verilog
02:49:13 <zzo38> ais523: O, OK, then.
02:49:33 <ais523> which is a case of sticking to the circuit elements that exist in all FPGAs
02:49:36 <zzo38> But still, someone told me, that complicated programs will not normally be portable to diferent kind of FPGA.
02:49:38 <ais523> in ASICs you have more freedom
02:49:45 <ais523> and that is true, it's because complicated programs normally use libraries
02:49:52 <Bike> tswett: Would it be? I thought the standard FFI let you marshal Chars?
02:49:58 <ais523> and the libraries are normally written by the FPGA manufacturers and not portable at all
02:50:08 <ais523> also they're normally only shipped in encrypted binary form
02:50:24 <tswett> I suppose really, all I'm getting at is "let's take C and pile features on top of it until it's Haskell".
02:50:44 <ais523> zzo38: if you haven't seen it already, there's http://opencores.org/ which is an attempt to make open-source libraries for FPGAs
02:50:44 <Bike> C is pretty strict.
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02:51:09 <pikhq> Bike: Trust me, you can do lambda in C. Which means if you're insane you can do thunks in C.
02:51:11 <ais523> also aiming for ASICs, but nobody in the open-source hardware commnity can afford those yet
02:51:20 <pikhq> Which means if you're freaking *crazy* you can get laziness.
02:51:22 <Bike> Maybe you could do some recursive parametric types through truly sad preprocessor abuse.
02:51:32 <ais523> pikhq: see any Unlambda interp in C
02:51:37 * pikhq has done all that, but not touched parametric types
02:51:46 <tswett> Forth is a good programming language if you don't need to do anything that involves data.
02:51:50 <pikhq> ais523: I did a Lazy K interp in C.
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02:52:32 <zzo38> ais523: Those are a few of the reasons why I don't want to be forced to use such libraries; however, if their function is known well enough, then I would hope that a way to represent the function in standard Verilog and then write a separate program, the same open-source program for all FPGA/ASIC, which takes a description and a Verilog program and modifies it to work better with the FPGA description given.
02:52:53 <ais523> zzo38: I don't know if there are any open-source FPGA synthesizers
02:53:06 <ais523> it's not theoretically impossible for one to be written, but the manufacturers have no interest in making it easy to do so
02:53:27 <zzo38> ais523: I think there are open-source FPGA synthesizers but they cannot generate FPGA bitcodes
02:53:41 <zzo38> ais523: I have seen OpenCores. However, I have still seen, the Amber CPU core (an ARM2 compatible core), says it is for Xilinx Spartan 6 only.
02:53:58 <ais523> zzo38: that would be to do with what features of the chip it used, most likely
02:53:59 <tromp_> pure lazy lambda can be done in 25 lines of C :)
02:54:36 <tswett> Come to think of it, I don't think it would be extremely difficult to turn Haskell into C++ or something.
02:54:37 <zzo38> ais523: I suppose, but I would like to be able to convert it into a portable Verilog code, so that it can work in Xilinx 7-series, and non-Xilinx, too.
02:54:46 <tswett> So I guess I'm going to write all my Haskell in C++ from now on.
02:55:07 <ais523> zzo38: I always aim to write portable VHDL and Verilog, except when writing drivers for specific hardware
02:55:22 <ais523> and even then, the only nonportability is usually due to assuming the existence of certain pins
02:56:10 <ais523> which is kind-of necessary if you're interfacing with hardware
02:56:26 <ais523> normally when I want to use a particular feature of an FPGA, I write code which the synthesizers will understand as trying to use that feature
02:56:28 <zzo38> The program I was making suggestion of, though, would be, first it does general-purpose optimization (I think Icarus Verilog does this), and then output another Verilog program which is mostly the same as the optimized one except for certain features programmed to optimize for the FPGA description (and the delay commands could be used for further optimization?)
02:56:36 <zzo38> ais523: What pins, specifically?
02:56:53 <ais523> zzo38: whatever pins are used by the hardware I'm interfacing with
02:57:29 <zzo38> ais523: Can you be more specific?
02:57:32 <ais523> the Verity standard library actually contains some apparently useless code, just so that Quartus II (Altera's compiler) will infer it correctly
02:57:43 <ais523> zzo38: say I want to write code to output numbers on a 7-segment display
02:57:53 <ais523> I assume that the hardware has 7 pins that are actually connected to the segments of such a display
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02:58:28 <zzo38> But such things seems like it is not specific to the FPGA; it seems like specific to the external hardware, isn't it?
02:58:53 <ais523> but you need to give the signals names that depend on the FPGA toolchain
02:59:00 <ais523> either that, or connect them to pins yourself
02:59:17 <ais523> the reason we gave up on Xilinx and moved to Altera was that Xilinx wouldn't give us enough information to connect the signals to pins manually
02:59:32 <ais523> whereas Altera both gave us the information we needed, and also a tool that did it automatically :)
03:00:32 <zzo38> However what I know about Xilinx is that for small and medium FPGAs, you don't have to pay (but you still have to register) to use their software, and it is capable of running on a VM running RedHat (someone also said it works on a VM running Ubuntu), and doesn't expire.
03:01:12 <zzo38> If Xilinx won't do what you said, how can I use Amber on Altera or others?
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03:02:46 <ais523> after spending two weeks trying to get the Xilinx toolchain to work, then calling in someone who'd used it before, then them having phoned up some friends they had at Xilinx and asking for help, and it still not working
03:02:50 <ais523> we gave up and moved onto Altera
03:03:18 <kmc> i'm alive, i'm alive, oh i'm alive, and how I know it! but for chips and for freedom I could die.
03:07:10 <zzo38> Open-source FPGA would solve these problems, but since it doesn't exist, I was thinking to make an alternative solution, where a program finds things in a Verilog program which use features of FPGA and change them to use features of other FPGA, and it also mean optimization for example if there are race conditions it can assume it doesn't care, and optimize based on that.
03:09:04 <ais523> zzo38: what did you think of my code that's designed to simulate your register-driven-by-two-clocks example?
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03:09:14 <ais523> <ais523> always@(posedge X) Q[0:1]=R[0:1]+1; always@(posedge Y) R[0:1]=Q[0:1]+1; assign Z=(Q-R)[1]
03:09:23 <ais523> I'm not sure the syntax is correct, but if it isn't, it's likely fixable
03:09:47 <ais523> that might be an interesting translation to do in a compiler
03:10:06 <ais523> I've actually wondered about a VHDL/Verilog selfcompiler that translates as much of the language as possible into the synthesizable subset
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03:10:10 <ais523> using tricks like that
03:10:35 <ais523> come to think of it, that can be optimized
03:10:58 <ais523> always@(posedge X) Q=R; always@(posedge Y) R=~Q; assign Z=Q^R
03:12:25 <zzo38> ais523: I have not thought much about this code yet, but I will print it out so that I can think about it later
03:12:43 <ais523> the idea is that you have two registers, each driven by a different clock
03:12:58 <ais523> and perform logical operations on them in order to combine the two clock signals
03:14:33 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, I did mean something like the compiler that translates as much of the language as possible into the synthesizable subset, but also make things into whatever is needed to work for the target FPGA even if the input file is a generic/portable file instead of vendor-specific.
03:15:02 <ais523> zzo38: the main thing I've discovered about targeting FPGAs is that the compilers tend to be sensitive to details you wouldn't think would matter
03:15:27 <zzo38> What kind of details?
03:15:51 <ais523> in one case, I had to create a temporary register to hold the output of a cast to unsigned, and cache it to one cycle, in VHDL
03:16:03 <ais523> even though the cast is a no-op in hardware
03:16:39 <ais523> if I didn't, then it couldn't correctly use the result of the cache as an index into an array; it synthesized the code, but simulated the array using registers instead of using the FPGA's block memory
03:17:02 <ais523> likewise, when reading from memory, I had to read from it every cycle, it didn't like reading from it only conditionally
03:17:14 <ais523> which is weird because a conditional read is implemented in hardware as always reading, then storing the read value conditionally
03:19:57 <zzo38> That is one reason why there should be the program to automatically convert these things to make it working
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03:26:33 <zzo38> Maybe they will make Icarus Verilog to do such things?
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03:38:43 <zzo38> If you know any such things can you help Icarus Verilog development team?
03:44:31 <ais523> I downloaded Icarus, but have not used it for anything serious
03:44:39 <ais523> sometimes I use it to compile Verilog to VHDL so I can read it ;)
03:46:51 <zzo38> I suppose that is one use of it.
04:03:07 <zzo38> I made up the Magic: the Gathering card: All non-legendary permanents have cumulative upkeep--double your life total. At the beginning of each player's first main phase, if that player's life total exceeds one million, that player loses the game.
04:05:56 * pikhq makes a complementary card
04:06:02 <ais523> zzo38: it's "precombat main phase" with current templating
04:06:10 <pikhq> All legendart permanents have "if you would lose the game, win the game."
04:06:11 <ais523> also cumulative upkeep needs reminder text
04:06:26 <ais523> pikhq: that would cause a lot of draws
04:06:30 <ais523> if both players had one
04:06:32 <pikhq> Yes, yes it would.
04:06:44 <ais523> via the infinite loop rule
04:07:24 <ais523> if it's worded as a replacement effect: "if you would lose the game, you win the game instead", I'm not 100% sure what happens
04:07:43 <ais523> it depends on whether the the-same-effect-can't-be-replaced-multiple-times rule would trigger
04:07:48 <ais523> if it does, the replacements would cancel each other out
04:08:07 <pikhq> "If you would lose the game, play a subgame with your library as the deck."
04:08:25 <pikhq> Bah, who needs that to do anything.
04:08:38 <ais523> incidentally, the DCI banned sharharazad because someone thought up an exploit where you'd use it recursively to stall out the time in the round
04:08:43 <ais523> nobody actually tried to use it
04:08:50 <pikhq> Keeping in mind that you can wish for cards in the supergame.
04:08:56 <ais523> but it's one of those theoretical thing that it'd make sense to shut off
04:09:00 <ais523> and actually you can't any more, they changed the rule
04:09:20 <ais523> wishes only work on sideboards nowadays
04:09:27 <pikhq> That's tournament rules.
04:09:36 <pikhq> That's not in the comprehensive rules at all.
04:09:53 <ais523> but they don't work on exiled cards or supergame cards even in the comp rules, I think
04:09:57 <ais523> just on other cards in your collection
04:09:59 <pikhq> The tournament rules basically patch the rules in this case to define "cards you own outside the game" to mean your sideboard.
04:10:12 <pikhq> ais523: They do work on supergame cards, I've checked.
04:10:13 <ais523> Sgeo: "place a card with property X from outside the game into your hand. exile this card"
04:10:17 <pikhq> They do not work on *exiled* cards.
04:10:31 <pikhq> Well, they do work on cards in the exile zone in a supergame.
04:10:34 <zzo38> Really I think it would make more sense for the "cards you own outside the game" to mean your sideboard in the standard rules, rather than patching the rules in klugy ways like that.
04:10:41 <ais523> incidentally, I think the original reason for the exile was so that you wouldn't accidentally forget to put the cards back in your sideboard
04:10:46 <zzo38> Actually I think most of the rules are too klugy.
04:10:57 <pikhq> They also work on cards on the stack in a supergame.
04:11:23 <zzo38> Do they work only on face-up cards in a supergame, or face-down cards too?
04:11:33 <pikhq> They work on face-down cards too.
04:11:41 <ais523> I think all that matters is who owns the card, right?
04:11:48 <ais523> hmm, if you aim it at a face-down card, do you have to reveal it?
04:11:56 <ais523> some sort of tournament rule about not being able to cheat involving morphs
04:12:05 <pikhq> Actually, definitely.
04:12:08 <pikhq> It's changing zones. :D
04:12:09 <ais523> where face-down cards have to be revealed whenever they'd no longer be face-down and in play
04:12:30 <ais523> or, well, no longer in play
04:12:30 <pikhq> The supergame rules clearly state you have to reveal the card when it leaves the battlefield.
04:12:40 <ais523> if it's face-up it's effectively in play anyway
04:12:46 <ais523> *effectively revealed anyway
04:12:49 <pikhq> (and yes, it counts as leaving the battlefield)
04:12:52 <ais523> and I don't think there are any cards with a reveal trigger
04:13:17 <ais523> there's that one card in Unhinged that triggers on being read, but that isn't the same
04:13:37 <pikhq> Also fun: removing a card from the stack in this manner is an amazingly silly counterspell.
04:14:10 <ais523> pikhq: well, only being able to target cards you own is quite the drawback on a counterspell
04:14:24 <pikhq> It's an *amazingly* silly one.
04:14:32 <ais523> it's theoretically possible it could be useful
04:14:36 <ais523> but not much more than that
04:14:45 <zzo38> Still, I suppose it may occasionally be useful to counter your own spells in a few cases
04:14:48 <ais523> there are a few spells that steal control of spells on the stack, but they're rare and hardly played
04:14:59 <zzo38> Especially if your opponent has modified the target or something like that
04:15:13 <ais523> most of the effects both steal control and modify the target
04:15:16 <ais523> rather than one or the other
04:15:26 <pikhq> You still own the card though.
04:15:35 <pikhq> We're dealing with *ownership*, not control.
04:15:57 <ais523> I was going on the basis that it'd be more useful to counter a spell, if you didn't control it
04:16:24 <pikhq> Also fun, and more potentially useful: Conspiracy works on all cards you own.
04:16:27 <ais523> I have seen decent players counter their own spell, but that's because they were trying to build High Tide (a well-known Legacy combo deck) in Standard
04:16:36 <pikhq> And there's that one Eldrazi that wishes for any number of Eldrazi.
04:16:47 <ais523> and the only legal replacement for Time Spiral is Rewind
04:17:06 <ais523> pikhq: there's someone on Gatherer who wants to, some day, use that card to win using Battle of Wits in Commander
04:17:15 <ais523> they've had the combo in their deck forever but never pulled it off
04:17:31 <ais523> and 167 common Eldrazi to hand, just in case
04:17:38 <zzo38> Do you ever play Limited format?
04:17:55 <ais523> I used to, but I stopped playing Limited at much the same time I stopped playing Constructed
04:18:27 <zzo38> I only play Limited format.
04:18:53 <ais523> pikhq: my most memorable event from a game I watched live was some sort of crazy mill versus midrange matchup in constructed
04:18:59 <zzo38> I won't mind if the rules are made to be specifically for Limited.
04:19:13 <ais523> where the race got very close, and the midrange player won with an empty library and a "draw a card" trigger on the stack
04:19:34 <zzo38> I read that some sets had cards which were banned before the set came out. I suppose those cards are designed to be used with Limited only?
04:21:35 <ais523> my most memorable event from a tournament I've played was in a Time Spiral draft, where I won with Coalition Victory, twice in the same tournament
04:21:35 <zzo38> Do you think Magic: the Gathering rules are very klugy?
04:21:35 <ais523> each time with at least one of each basic land, and at least one monocolored creature of each color
04:21:35 <ais523> zzo38: sometimes they fix things
04:21:35 <ais523> like getting rid of substance in favour of "at the beginning of the cleanup step2
04:21:35 <zzo38> ais523: They tend to make them even more klugy though
04:21:35 <ais523> but in general they seem to either have unnecessary complex rules, or cards, or both
04:21:35 <zzo38> Yes, in favour of "at the beginning of the cleanup step..." is better, I think; still, I don't mean rules such as substance.
04:21:35 <pikhq> ais523: I just kinda wish they had printed a card with substance as a joke.
04:21:44 <zzo38> Substance is a klugy feature of the cards that use them, not really a klugy rule, I think.
04:21:52 <pikhq> "Worse Bear. Substance. 2/2"
04:21:59 <ais523> pikhq: the fix I'd have liked would be to define substance as "Substance is a static ability. When a card loses substance, its controller sacrifices it."
04:22:02 <pikhq> Strictly worse than Grizzly Bears.
04:22:10 <ais523> and the reminder text would be "Substance (when CARDNAME loses substance, sacrifice it)."
04:22:58 <ais523> or, in its original context, "If you play CARDNAME when you couldn't play a sorcery, it gains substance until end of turn. (When it loses substance, sacrifice it.)"
04:23:10 <zzo38> One rule I don't like is the state-based effects that make creatures unable to be attached to anything.
04:23:41 <ais523> pikhq: it's possible to come up with situations where it's more useful than Runeclaw Bear
04:23:55 <ais523> although admittedly they mostly involve pumping the Runeclaw Bear and then doing something that hurts creatures with higher power
04:24:12 * pikhq declares "screw Runeclaw"
04:24:27 <pikhq> We *really* needed a functional reprint of Grizzly?
04:24:29 <ais523> yeah but grizzly bears can't be a creature because there are two of them </creative team>
04:24:50 <ais523> they decided that something that iconic needed flavour in line with modern design
04:25:25 <ais523> same reason they don't like doing walls any more
04:25:38 <ais523> well, not exactly the same, but similar
04:25:43 <zzo38> I disagree with much of their decisions.
04:25:58 <zzo38> I also don't like the rule that +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters cancel each other out
04:26:19 <ais523> zzo38: that was designed to make it easier to track things when people were playing lorwyn/shadowmoor constructed
04:26:35 <zzo38> ais523: Yes I know; still, I would have done it differently such as using two colors of countres
04:26:41 <ais523> only they put it into the future sight rules update to confuse people
04:26:51 <ais523> I think their idea was that people might not have two colors of counters
04:27:10 <pikhq> Man, Future Sight.
04:27:19 <zzo38> In my opinion, their rules are not mathematically elegant enough!
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04:28:27 <pikhq> Steamflogger Boss.
04:28:34 <pikhq> "Assemble" *still* has no meaning.
04:28:40 <pikhq> Nor are there any contraptions.
04:28:53 <ais523> pikhq: haha, I've been thinking about steamflogger boss from the angle of "what would the rules have to look like for steamflogger boss to be correctly templated"
04:29:17 <ais523> I've come to such interesting conclusions as "protection probably works against assembly", and "assembly most likely happens in the combat step or it wouldn't be templated like that"
04:29:53 <ais523> but it was clearly added as a joke (the way to tell that is that the card is pretty good in limited even if you ignore the assemble line as meaningless, which it is)
04:30:12 <ais523> I'm actually really upset that the reminder text on Tarmogoyf /wasn't/ a joke, I'm upset about planeswalkers
04:30:21 <ais523> they didn't directly drive me from Magic, but they were a contributing factor
04:30:29 <ais523> (fwiw, Lorwyn was the set that drove me away from Magic)
04:30:58 <zzo38> I don't like the implementation of planeswalkers either, nor do I like the name "planeswalkers" (by confusion with "plainswalk")
04:31:10 <pikhq> Yeah, Planeswalkers are kinda lame.
04:31:52 <ais523> zzo38: actually the reason plainswalk is so rarely used is to prevent it being muddled with planeswalkers (which existed in flavour since alpha, but only got cards in lorwyn)
04:32:19 <ais523> pikhq: my main concrete complaint is that they indirectly made combo more degenerate
04:32:27 * pikhq wants Nicole Bolas, Plains
04:32:28 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, I think they are klugy due to flavour often too
04:32:30 <ais523> combo decks used to have to defend while they were assembling their combo, but if you're capable of defending while building something up, why not use a planeswalker insetad?
04:32:48 <zzo38> The idea is not bad though. I would have done it like this: There is a type "Playercard" which, when in play, is a player as well as an object. Its life total is equal to the number of life counters it has. It is the teammate of its controller. It does not normally get a turn. If it wins or loses the game, it is discarded.
04:33:02 <ais523> and as such, the only combo decks that survived are the degenerate noninteractive ones based on speed rather than defending
04:33:31 <ais523> pikhq: did you see what happened to Modern recently, btw?
04:33:57 <pikhq> I've not been following it too much of late.
04:34:06 <zzo38> There could be a shortcut for a new kind of activated ability which says "+1:" or "-3:" or whatever to add/remove that many life counters and tap in order to use the activated ability, and it can only be used as a sorcery. This kind of ability should be given a name so that other effects can refer to it.
04:34:20 <ais523> basically, they recently banned Bloodbraid Elf (and a few other cards, but that's the relevant one for this), because they thought the dominating deck, Jund, was winning too much
04:34:27 <ais523> so they banned a card that Jund was good at using and other decks didn't use
04:34:35 <zzo38> I also don't like that they removed mana burn. Mana burn has a strategic use.
04:34:37 <ais523> quite a few people were upset about that reason for banning
04:34:46 <ais523> anyway, the new best deck is Eggs
04:34:49 <pikhq> zzo38: It was also very nicely flavorful.
04:35:05 <ais523> and it's a combo deck that's mostly non-interactive (unless the opponent adds cards like Seal of Fire to help counter it)
04:35:10 <ais523> and takes /ages/ to go off
04:35:18 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, but I am not worrying about flavor *at all*.
04:35:23 <ais523> and recently, someone played it against Brian Kibler (one of the top players), played the combo
04:35:32 <ais523> and he just walked off to go to the toilet as they were playing the combo
04:35:39 <ais523> and they were still going when he came back
04:35:39 <zzo38> What I do like is changing "removed from game" zone to "exile" zone, since it is actually still a part of the game.
04:36:09 <pikhq> That was a good change.
04:36:16 <ais523> so yeah, basically the new best deck is one that ruins tournament timing
04:36:27 <zzo38> Yes, I agree; I do like the change of the name of this zone.
04:36:32 <ais523> giving 5 extra turns hurts when a single turn can take half an hour even if the players are playing as fast as possible
04:36:40 <ais523> and I think everyone likes the change to "exile"; I know I do
04:36:52 <ais523> I'm dubious about "battlefield", though, because it makes the cards so much longer than the old wording
04:37:35 <zzo38> ais523: I too am dubious about "battlefield". It doesn't seem very good to me. Maybe "in play" isn't so good either; my other suggestion is "active zone" or "permanent zone", but they may be a bit confusing too.
04:37:53 <zzo38> (I would have changed the name of the other zones too, but they aren't as important. They are: "draw pile" instead of "library", and "discard pile" instead of "graveyard".)
04:38:43 <zzo38> What is your opinion of the state-based effects rules that make creatures not attached to anything?
04:38:55 <zzo38> I don't happen to like those state-based effects.
04:39:58 * pikhq notes that having a backwards-compatible PS3 is pretty nice.
04:40:15 <ais523> zzo38: presumably they're needed to resolve a situation that rarely comes up
04:42:30 <ais523> one thing that confuses me more is the rule that spells can't be made to target themselves
04:42:30 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure which problem that solves
04:42:30 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, but they removed that feature, as well as the other feature which they marketed. Now both of the important features are gone.
04:42:30 <ais523> although I guess it's similar to the idea of preventing enchantments enchanting themselves
04:42:31 <pikhq> zzo38: My PS3 is a BC one.
04:42:31 <ais523> (it /is/ possible to get enchantments to enchant each other in a loop, though, and that doesn't cause any problems)
04:42:31 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, and I do not think it is a problem to make such a loop.
04:42:31 <ais523> zzo38: it's also possible to get a permanent with no types, and that's not a problem either
04:42:31 <zzo38> What I meant was the rule that an Aura that is also a creature is discarded. I think that rule is really klugy and stupid; I think it should be allowed!
04:42:31 <ais523> it acts much like an enchantment or artifact would
04:42:31 <ais523> without being an enchantment/artifact
04:42:31 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, that should be OK too, to have a permanent with no types.
04:43:10 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if it's possible to have a permanent that's just a tribal
04:43:20 <zzo38> I also think the rule that a land is not played as its other card type is not a very good rule to have. If it has no mana cost you cannot play it as the other card type anyways, otherwise you might be able to if that rule did not exist, and if you do so, it uses the stack.
04:43:33 <ais523> that might be a contradiction in the rules
04:45:36 <zzo38> There is also a state-baesd effect that makes token cease to exist if out of play. I don't like that rule, and would rather have the token cease to exist right away due to lacking initial state. (This also means tokens can be on the stack and enter play just fine; and I think copies of spells ought to be tokens too)
04:48:28 <ais523> zzo38: that would break all the cards which trigger on tokens going from play to the graveyard
04:49:46 <zzo38> ais523: Actually, according to what I was thinking, it wouldn't. It would still trigger, but there would be no object to do. The object still moves, but as part of the object moving, a new object is created and this step is simply skipped.
04:50:20 <ais523> zzo38: well, there are lots of cards that say "whenever a creature is put into a graveyard from play" or the like, those work on tokens
04:50:39 <ais523> also, there are commonly used tricks like flickering enemy tokens to get rid of them permanently
04:50:58 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, what I am thinking, I would intend, those to still work. Flickering tokens to get rid of them permanently would still work too.
04:56:28 <zzo38> Mostly due to them changing the rules all the time and making new cards, they keep changing things to make it intending to work, which makes it really klugy.
04:56:50 <zzo38> Therefore, make up another game, make up the mathematically elegant version of the rules.
05:02:07 <zzo38> Another rule is that losing due to unable to draw a card is a state-based effect. I think it ought to be immediate instead, as part of the meaning of "draw a card". (This means that if you have "Pay 1 life: Target player draws a card." that even if you have 1 life remaining and opponent has no cards, you can still win. I don't know if any such situation exists with existing cards; do you know?)
05:03:07 <pikhq> That wouldn't work.
05:03:15 <pikhq> The life payment is a cost.
05:03:25 <zzo38> O, yes, you are correct. I missed that.
05:03:32 <pikhq> You pay that cost to put the "Target player draws a card" ability on the stack, so...
05:03:44 <zzo38> Maybe like this it might work: "Pay 1 life: A player of your choice draws a card. Add {1} to your mana pool." Would that work?
05:03:59 <pikhq> That'd give it the right speed, yeah.
05:16:20 <ais523> yeah, you have to remove the "target" or it isn't a mana ability any more
05:28:48 <zzo38> Is "{T}: Add {0} to your mana pool." a mana ability, or not?
05:31:20 <ais523> I think it isn't, because it doesn't actually add mana to a mana pool
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05:41:25 <augur> when the oculus rift comes out, 3D will be infinitely more important that it is now
05:41:29 <augur> why not a 3d esolang?
05:41:45 <zzo38> I think there are some esolangs in 3D, and even some in 4D
05:42:06 <augur> but are they interesting?
05:45:51 <pikhq> ais523: "{T}: Add {1} to your mana pool. Remove {1} from your mana pool."
05:46:10 <ais523> pikhq: I bet there's some crazy way to break that :)
05:46:13 <pikhq> Or, hell. "{1}: Add {1} to your mana pool."
05:46:33 <ais523> actually, I know zzo38 is upset about the removal of mana burn
05:46:38 <pikhq> ais523: Well, there is a crazy way to make it *slightly useful*.
05:46:40 <ais523> but IMO they should have gone further and removed the mana pool altogether
05:46:44 <pikhq> Stick it on a snow permanent.
05:46:58 <ais523> pikhq: Candelabra of Tawnos is one of the most expensive cards around
05:47:13 <ais523> and it's just "{X}, {T}: Untap X target lands"
05:47:24 <pikhq> That is broken in very subtle ways.
05:47:57 <ais523> well, if you're playing High Tide anyway…
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06:21:48 <btiffin> saw pbrain.c and had to call it from OpenCOBOL, extending it to cbrain. Takes numbers among other bloats. Posting on Discussion, OpenCOBOL project on SourceForge.
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07:36:33 <HackEgo> monqy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
07:36:43 <HackEgo> smlist: shachaf monqy elliott
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07:37:43 <shachaf> Hmm, 0xC2 is a magic UTF-8 prefix.
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07:39:56 <shachaf> monqy: so why didn't you `smlist
07:40:10 <shachaf> who knows how long "i've been deprived'"
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07:41:03 <monqy> i thought someone removed the lists
07:41:20 -!- sivoais has joined.
07:42:29 <shachaf> well i removed the someone
07:43:43 <shachaf> monqy: can you say a bit of "monqy "wisdom""
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07:51:14 <monqy> if i said no would that be 'paradoxical'
07:51:41 <shachaf> monqy: tell me this: is there any paradox better than curry's paradox
07:51:59 <monqy> curry's paradox is pretty dang good
07:52:40 <shachaf> if there was a better paradox it would have to be
07:53:07 <monqy> could just be a little bit better it'd still be better but just a little bit probably not worth the bother
07:53:54 <shachaf> well i didn't say it would be a lot better
07:54:03 <shachaf> just that better than "pretty dang good" is "pretty dang better"
07:54:16 <shachaf> im not good at comapring.........
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08:00:14 <Taneb> Today's Freefall is great!
08:01:09 <shachaf> monqy: did i ask you about modal logic yet
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08:06:32 <btiffin> I have an esolang, based on pbrain, developed for embedding in COBOL. Way fun.
08:09:26 <btiffin> I take it, this is a place to brag about such things? Or is it to be played all humble 'n shit? ;-)
08:11:42 <zzo38> Did you make a description on the esolang wiki?
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08:13:15 <btiffin> Not yet. 4am, and just posting to a few forums so far.
08:17:31 <btiffin> cbrain was fun. cbrain, cbrain run. .cb files, so the repl gets to terminate with CB slang, We gone. I broke BF and added numbers, as the intent is to write something semi useful and add easier access to bit fields and xor etc, from COBOL.
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08:44:09 <ais523> making languages based on BF is usually a bad idea
08:45:29 <Lymia> With no discreet time steps, cells, or cell values.
08:45:45 <zzo38> How would that work?
08:45:50 <Lymia> I'm not entirely sure!
08:46:15 <Lymia> Would likely need a continuous version of a BF program, somehow. (formulated as an equation), and something to bind it together
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08:53:35 <zzo38> An idea I have is "Esoteric Verilog" which adds such things as quantum computing, halting oracles, more values of logic which do various strange things, INTERCAL's ABSTAIN, REINSTATE, IGNORE, REMEMBER, bit interleave, mechanical components, time travel, command for demons in your nose, etc
08:54:20 <ais523> Lymia: what you do is you average cells with nearby cells to some extent, sort-of like a delay line
08:54:30 <ais523> and use single bits, 1 or 0 or values in between due to averaging
08:54:47 <zzo38> (I know it is impossible both in hardware and in software, and possibly some of it may be impossible even in mathematics)
08:54:56 <ais523> then the [] command both loops and doesn't loop, depending on the value, both branches are calculated and the results averaged depending on the value
08:55:09 <ais523> so if you do [] on a 0.2, the inside of the loop contributes 0.2 to the tape, the outside contributes 0.8
08:55:16 <zzo38> (O, reversible computing too, I forgot that one)
08:55:24 <ais523> to make it properly continuous, < and > should move approximately one element, not exactly one element
08:55:46 <ais523> I guess you'd have to have some threads which were busy going around reshaping to make it work
08:56:51 <ais523> btw, this'd be a nightmare to implement due to combinatorial explosion
08:56:57 <ais523> the threads all share a tape
08:57:05 <ais523> so you could simply keep track of the relative strengths of the various IPs
08:57:09 <ais523> and add them together as an optimization
08:57:27 <ais523> that way you only have to maintain one float for each command in the input program, that should be doable
08:59:32 <Lymia> ais523, I was thinking
08:59:35 <Lymia> Take BFJoust syntax
08:59:41 <Lymia> And let x be a floating point value
09:00:43 <Lymia> The local conclusion of this is
09:00:45 <Lymia> "Continuous BF Joust"
09:00:50 <ais523> I guess it'd be an easy way to get non-integers on the tape
09:01:28 <ais523> anyway, this "BF2K" concept is at least as interesting as Befunge2K (which I haven't written up yet, but it's basically Befunge 98 except that every command but # and ; has an x% chance of doing nothing)
09:02:23 <ais523> just saw an account creation, was worried it was a spambot
09:02:37 <ais523> having new users not be spambots is good, saves me the effort of having to clean up after them
09:03:18 <Lymia> I wonder how continuous BF Joust would work out
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09:03:44 <Lymia> The goal is to set the opponent's flag to (-0.5, 0.5) for 2.0 time steps
09:12:10 <btiffin> cbrain info posted to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Cbrain
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09:20:38 <zzo38> btiffin: OK, thanks for posting information
09:22:01 <btiffin> Can I brag now? :-) This is fun.
09:23:25 <btiffin> .cb files, 10-4 good buddy speak?
09:23:26 <FireFly> Lymia: next up, do continuous befunge
09:25:36 <btiffin> COBOL now embeds Shakespeare, beatnik, pbrain and cbrain. Is there a way to filter esolangs.org by language of implementation? C in particular, it being such a search friendly letter?
09:28:25 <btiffin> any human hints? (he asked, all smiley and hopeful)
09:29:08 <Lymia> Continuous Brainfuck...
09:29:36 <Lymia> [] take up 0 time steps each. An empty, or infinitesimal inner loop is an error.
09:30:13 <Lymia> That, or they take 1.0 time step, and treat the value as the average during that time....
09:30:16 <Lymia> IDK which is more BF-like
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12:10:04 <FreeFull> http://ghc.io/ This is neat, although the help and about links don't seem to work
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13:31:13 <kmc> FreeFull: i wonder if they have any sandboxing beyond Safe Haskell
13:31:24 <kmc> at this stage i really would not trust Safe Haskell by itself
13:31:26 <kmc> defense in depth, yo
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13:43:24 <FreeFull> kmc: I'm going to try the Ix thing
13:44:01 <FreeFull> Oh, apparently you can't import Data.Array
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13:45:33 <kmc> which thing is that?
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13:49:45 <boily> is it possible to remove your own entries from bfjoust?
13:51:22 <Gregor> The conventional way is just to replace them with suiciders.
13:51:26 <Taneb> Replace the program with < or something similar
13:52:43 <ThatOtherPerson> !bfjoust first_time_test_random_characters >>><>>++++.->><>>><><>.<><.>++>-
13:52:53 <boily> !bfjoust wooden_ <
13:52:54 <EgoBot> Score for ThatOtherPerson_first_time_test_random_characters: 0.1
13:52:56 <EgoBot> Score for boily_wooden_: 0.0
13:53:59 <FreeFull> kmc: Creating your own instance of Ix which always returns true for the bounds check
13:57:56 <boily> FreeFull: isn't that like wilfully destroying bound-checking to have Haskell behave like C, and scrozzle random memory values?
14:04:59 <FreeFull> boily: The whole point is that Data.Array is meant to be safe
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14:14:24 <elliott> ghc does extra checks with Ix, aiui
14:14:24 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:15:55 <boily> I'm trying to define an Evil instance of Ix, but so far no segfaults, no inconsistent behaviour.
14:16:06 <boily> damn you Haskell, for being conceptually and practically sound!
14:16:16 <elliott> iirc it didn't use to do these checks
14:16:23 <elliott> and the report allows skipping them
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14:23:34 <kmc> FreeFull: clever
14:23:56 <kmc> boily: yeah FreeFull was talking about ways to circumvent the type system in order to compromise a remote code execution service
14:24:21 <kmc> i wouldn't call GHC Haskell "sound" in this way; there are many many ways to bypass the type system
14:24:27 <kmc> SafeHaskell tries to forbid them one by one
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14:25:02 <kmc> but also, the GHC RTS is a 50,000 line multithreaded C / assembly program
14:25:14 <kmc> they've found nasty bugs in the past and there will be more
14:25:27 <Halite> I'd like to create a programming language ontop of JS
14:25:52 <monqy> a language on top of JS? what do you mean
14:25:56 <kmc> you and the rest of the world
14:25:59 <monqy> embedded language?
14:26:06 <monqy> or something that compiles to JS?
14:26:10 <monqy> JS sucks sooo much
14:26:10 <Halite> monqy, a language coded in JS, that takes input and displays output
14:26:28 <Halite> JS is portable - so it can work with both OSes in my dual boot
14:26:34 <monqy> that's a bad reason
14:26:36 <kmc> monqy: i'm starting to think you might not be a fan of JS
14:26:43 <monqy> lots of languages have cross platfrom implemetnations
14:26:49 <kmc> you know what other language is portable? pretty much all of them
14:26:51 <monqy> kmc: i hate javascript more every day
14:26:57 <monqy> it's like a curse??
14:27:04 <monqy> except it's ok because it's javascript
14:27:23 <kmc> a harrowing cautionary tale to be sure
14:27:48 <Halite> yeah whatever, start criticising my reason! I'm fed up of destructive criticism. Make it constructive and I'll take notice!
14:28:00 <kmc> Halite: you didn't ask an actual question yet
14:28:17 <Halite> kmc, that's because I don't have one to ask yet
14:28:23 <Taneb> Halite, there are other cross-platform backends than Javascript
14:28:24 <kmc> glad that's settled then
14:28:31 <Taneb> For instance, Java's JVM
14:28:43 <Taneb> Or you could just compile twice
14:28:45 <kmc> for example C or C++ or C# or Perl or Python or Ruby or god forbid PHP
14:28:46 <Halite> I haven't learnt Java yet
14:28:58 <kmc> Halite: I suggest Python
14:29:01 <Halite> C# is Microsoft's Java
14:29:02 <kmc> it's a great language to know
14:29:14 <kmc> JS is also a great langauge to know
14:29:20 <kmc> I won't discourage you from doing this in JS
14:29:28 <Halite> I know JS but not Python
14:29:56 <monqy> javascript is a lesson in how not to design a language
14:30:04 <kmc> Halite: C# is also just a better language than Java; it has the same concepts as Java, but more of the features you need to use those concepts without hating yourself
14:30:12 <kmc> you can compile and run C# on Linux
14:30:23 <kmc> i don't know if it's "industrial strength" but it works for a personal project anyway
14:30:46 <nooodl> are any languages even well designed
14:30:54 <Halite> kmc, I do know C# but I don't want to compile anything. Javascript is portable without any compiling, because it's embedded in HTML.
14:31:13 <FreeFull> kmc: I think Ruby does OOP better than C#
14:31:17 <monqy> nooodl: it's easier to tell when one is better than another
14:32:28 <nooodl> imagine if you designed a language in a week or two
14:32:35 <nooodl> and then literally everyone on earth uses it
14:33:36 <monqy> javascript took committe many years to design
14:33:41 <monqy> somehow it hasn't gotten any fucking better
14:33:42 <FreeFull> Javascript would be ok if it didn't do a lot of questionable things
14:33:50 <monqy> everything javascript does is questionable
14:34:27 <nooodl> http://ideone.com/jBXjUf "running C# in my browser"
14:36:03 <monqy> i hear at least discrepencies between js implementations have lessened? even ecma is insane though i suggest reading it
14:36:47 <elliott> js committee work has been much more about standardising implementations in practice than changing things hasnt it
14:37:39 <kmc> i'll be the pedantic guy and point out that JavaScript is not always embedded in HTML
14:37:51 <kmc> sometimes it's server side code or embedded in a GTK+ app or embedded in PostgreSQL server
14:37:55 <kmc> don't confuse the language with the platform
14:38:10 <Halite> kmc, but it was designed to be
14:38:41 <kmc> FreeFull: i think picking a language on the basis of which one "does OOP" better is questionable
14:38:49 <kmc> the fact is that nobody is very consistent about what OOP even means
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14:39:05 <Halite> I think I should code in Haskell
14:39:16 <Halite> I can create a programming language in Haskell
14:39:25 <monqy> what do you mean by create a language in haskell
14:39:29 <kmc> no, you can create a programming language implementation in Haskell
14:40:15 <Halite> but what if I've not defined a language yet at all
14:40:44 <kmc> then the language and implementation evolve at the same time most likely
14:43:00 <Halite> what should I start off on
14:44:06 <monqy> that's my "flesh out your ideas" answer
14:44:09 <monqy> my other answer is
14:44:20 <monqy> "do you have a problem that you want to solve with programming languages"
14:44:28 <monqy> you could make a ``domain specific language``
14:44:37 <monqy> you could even make an ``embedded domain specific language``
14:45:39 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
14:46:29 <Halite> hello constant, write your value to stdout
14:47:41 <Halite> hello constant, return your value so I can calculate constant divided by 0
14:48:22 <Halite> ERROR: Constants can only change values in between run times
14:48:56 <Halite> ERROR: Halite doesn't support mutable constants. Assuming you are a variable.
14:50:09 <Halite> INFO: Halite has recovered from a segmentation fault.
14:51:18 * Halite gives constant away as resource for other programs to use
14:52:25 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
14:52:50 * Lymia assigns constant to a write-only variable
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15:10:28 <Taneb> HackEgo's quicker than usual, which somewhat defeats my point
15:11:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: haha: not found
15:11:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: say: not found
15:12:16 <HackEgo> bash: let: =: syntax error: operand expected (error token is "=")
15:12:34 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
15:12:43 <monqy> remember what happened last time
15:13:26 <HackEgo> ghc: no input files \ Usage: For basic information, try the `--help' option.
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15:28:43 <Lymia> > let checkLawsOfMath x y = (x - x == 0) && (x - y == x + (-y)) in checkLawsOfMath 1/0 1/(-0)
15:28:45 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Fractional GHC.Types.Bool)
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15:31:14 <FreeFull> > let checkLawsOfMath x y = ((x - x) == 0) && ((x - y) == (x + (-y))) in checkLawsOfMath (1/0) (1/(-0))
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16:08:32 <Halite> lambdabot's math laws are bugged
16:17:08 <Halite> > throw "No instance for (GHC.Real..."
16:17:16 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `ERROR'
16:17:34 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `data'
16:17:53 <monqy> so did you forget what happened last time
16:18:23 <Halite> > parse error on input 'parse error on input 'parse error on input 'parse error on input 'parse error on input 'parse error on input 'parse error on input 'parse error on input
16:18:25 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `parse'Not in scope: `input'Syntax error on 'parse
16:18:40 <Bike> well this is going well
16:19:06 <Halite> > let phantom_hoover = 0 in let rdococ = 100 in rdococ > phantom_hoover
16:19:59 <monqy> maybe this will come as a surprise to you given your repeated behavior but
16:20:05 <monqy> people don't like it when you spam bot nonsense
16:20:40 <Halite> I can't really help it for a long time
16:20:46 <monqy> remember how you got banned from #haskell
16:22:25 <Halite> I thought I was banned forever
16:27:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Halite, the solution to this is really quite simple: before doing any bot command, put a /msg <bot> before it.
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16:43:01 <Koen_> is it me or is that guy walking on the water in one of the frames from xkcd's time
16:44:44 <Koen_> http://xkcd.aubronwood.com/
16:45:55 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined.
16:46:53 <Koen_> computer flipbooks!
16:47:51 <elliott> I kind of liked the latest xkcd; am I going soft
16:48:17 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/FileSys good new esolang
16:49:26 <Lumpio-> er what's the original comic do
16:49:32 <Lumpio-> Change based on time of day?
16:50:27 <Bike> the traditional sense
16:54:40 <Koen_> Lumpio-: I think there's a new frame every half hour or so
16:55:00 <Lumpio-> oh, so it's not just time of day
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17:35:10 <kmc> elliott: you're going soft hth
17:35:58 <boily> on forums.xkcd.com, the thread about that comic is insane in every sense.
17:36:41 <elliott> kmc: i'll rely on you to continue hatin'
17:37:00 <boily> knowing the senses of insane will drive you insanely sensed.
17:38:38 <kmc> There is an area of the mind that could be called unsane, beyond sanity, and yet not insane. Think of a circle with a fine split in it. At one end there's insanity. You go around the circle to sanity, and on the other end of the circle, close to insanity, but not insanity, is unsanity.
17:40:10 <zzo38> I have read somewhere, a circle with one point missing is called a pathocircle.
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17:43:50 <Koen_> is that the weird science-fiction thing from that avengers film?
17:44:07 <kmc> it's a cube in 4D
17:44:44 <kmc> often seen unfolded into 3D like so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tesseract2.svg
17:44:46 <Koen_> why didn't they say so then
17:44:51 <kmc> as in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_(Corpus_Hypercubus)
17:45:57 <Bike> i like how serious that first sentence is
17:46:03 <kmc> apparently this was Ayn Rand's favorite painting :/
17:46:09 <Bike> deviates from traditional crucifixions by being totally different
17:46:34 <Bike> christ of saint john on the cross is a better dalicifixion imo
17:47:21 <Koen_> everyone knows that the crux is fiction
17:47:35 <ThatOtherPerson> My current sanity level is therefore represented as a two-dimensional portion of the tesseract.
17:47:50 <ThatOtherPerson> Because of this, I am frequently both sane and insane at the same time.
17:48:22 <kmc> sounds like zzo38
17:49:52 <Bike> something comething complaint something "insane" as medical term is obsolete something fomething
17:51:02 <boily> `learn fomething denotes the obsolescence of clinical insanity.
17:52:10 <Bike> momething popething
17:53:01 <elliott> The most striking change Dali makes from nearly every other crucifixion painting concerns the cross. Instead of painting Christ on a wooden cross, Dali depicts Him upon the net of a hypercube, also known as a tesseract.
17:53:05 <elliott> you literally just said that wikipedia
17:53:36 <elliott> She felt a connection between John Galt’s defiance over his torture in her novel Atlas Shrugged and Dali’s portrayal of Christ in the painting.[6]
17:53:39 <Bike> see, told you.
17:53:49 <kmc> Dogs have a temporal resolution of between 60 and 70 Hz, which explains why many dogs struggle to watch television
17:54:14 <Bike> elliott: atlas shrugged is basically about wacking galt repeatedly with a giant platonic solid
17:54:54 <kmc> there may not be a rule in poker, but athletes do get in trouble for not trying hard enough sometimes
17:55:14 <zzo38> I have seen the Christ on a tesseract in some book
17:55:22 <kmc> in the olympics, competitors from the same country will conspire to draw, and such
17:56:05 <elliott> kmc: did you hear about that football game
17:56:15 <elliott> where the other team deliberately scored own goals
17:56:23 <elliott> it was fantastic let me find it
17:56:35 <elliott> Barbados was leading 2-0 until the 83rd minute, when Grenada scored, making it 2-1. Approaching the dying moments, the Barbadians realized they had little chance of scoring past Grenada's mass defense in the time available, so they deliberately scored an own goal to tie the game at 2-2. This would send the game into extra time and give them another half hour to break down the defense. The Grenadians realized what was happening and attempted to score
17:56:44 <elliott> The Grenadians realized what was happening and attempted to score an own goal as well, which would put Barbados back in front by one goal and would eliminate Barbados from the competition.
17:56:48 <Bike> and attempted to score
17:56:48 <elliott> However, the Barbados players started defending their opposition's goal to prevent them from doing this, and during the game's last five minutes, the fans were treated to the incredible sight of Grenada trying to score in either goal while Barbados defended both ends of the pitch.
17:56:53 <elliott> Barbados successfully held off Grenada for the final five minutes, sending the game into extra time. In extra time, Barbados notched the game-winner, and, according to the rules, was awarded a 4-2 victory, which put them through to the next round.[1][2][3]
17:57:21 <Bike> I was going to say that football seems like kind of a letdown after The Play but that, that's amazing
17:57:24 <kmc> wait why didn't barbados just leave the game at 2-1
17:57:37 <Bike> they needed to win by two to continue the tourney
17:57:43 <kmc> football isn't one of those dumb sports where you need to win by 2 is it?
17:58:08 <elliott> Grenada went into the match with a superior goal difference, meaning that Barbados needed to win by two goals to progress to the finals. The trouble was caused by two things. First, unlike most group stages in football competitions, the organizers had deemed that all games must have a winner.
17:58:11 <kmc> if that's the case then they should have extra time if the teams are within 1
17:58:12 <Halite> sounds like it soundedlike it
17:58:13 <elliott> All games drawn over 90 minutes would go to sudden death extra time. Secondly and most importantly, there was an unusual rule which stated that in the event of a game going to sudden death extra time the goal would count double, meaning that the winner would be awarded a two goal victory.
17:58:15 <Bike> it's pretty usual in sports to have how much you win by being a factor, doesn't it
17:58:18 <elliott> sorry for not giving the context!!!
17:58:19 <zzo38> I have read about that football game. Some people called it mad. I call it OK.
17:58:28 <kmc> elliott: ok so they made up stupid rules and it broke
17:58:34 <Bike> Seriously though, y'all know The Play, right.
17:58:44 <elliott> kmc: by broke do you mean went beautifully
17:58:54 <elliott> Bike: i am learning right now
17:58:55 <kmc> Bike: don't remember what it refers to
17:59:07 <zzo38> I think their current tournament score just required them to win by 2.
17:59:10 <Bike> the college football game where they had to dodge tuba players
18:06:53 <btiffin> Feel free to gut'n'paste on the new cbrain entry at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Cbrain and put stop to any wrongs I may be committing.
18:08:07 <Bike> huh do people use opencobol? i thought cobol was only used in enterprisey banky things nowadays
18:08:17 <monqy> havent you seen the cobol video
18:08:33 <kmc> is it better than Erlang: The Movie?
18:08:34 <Bike> I haven't seen the cobol video.
18:08:50 <monqy> gosh i forget where the cobol video is
18:08:52 <Bike> cogs i have seen, but, i mean seriously.
18:08:53 <kmc> is it a song that goes 1 2 3 4 5 6 COBOL! 1 2 3 4 5 6 COBOL!
18:09:13 <Bike> "Add1ToCOBOL Open Source Cobol and OpenCobol advocacy site" now we're talking.
18:09:37 <Bike> we're not just cobol. we're cobol + 1
18:09:40 <Bike> that's what it says on their site.
18:09:50 <btiffin> @Bike; I keep the OpenCOBOL FAQ at http://opencobol.add1tocobol.com/ So much fun gluing COBOL to C things.
18:10:08 <monqy> http://www.microfocus.com/assets/sol-VC-banner-new.jpg
18:10:10 <Bike> http://add1tocobol.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Screen-shot-2010-11-22-at-3.55.43-PM1.png I think the main problem here is using a non-fixed-width font!!!
18:10:40 <boily> K: Cobalt's metal, hard and shining; \ Cobol's wordy and confining; \ KOBOLDS topple when you strike them; \ Don't feel bad, it's hard to like them. \ -- The Roguelet's ABC
18:10:52 <monqy> i wish i could remember where the cobol video is it's realyl good
18:11:33 <Bike> COBOL has historically been very secretive and low key. Its domain of use being very secretive and low key. COBOL programmers rarely work on systems that would allow for open internet chat regarding details, let alone existence.
18:11:44 -!- oklopol has joined.
18:11:59 <btiffin> Hmm, yeah, part the add1to team like the wordpress. ;-) We hang out on SourceForge now at https://sourceforge.net/projects/open-cobol/
18:12:12 <boily> Bike: I see what you did there! you're trying to imply that COBOL exists more than CANADA!
18:12:15 <kmc> i'm sure your payroll software for a midsize paper company is SUPER TOP SECRET
18:12:28 <kmc> COBOL programmers live the lifestyle of the international spy
18:13:00 <Bike> the funny thing is i honestly have no reason not to believe that cobol isn't great for business work but this is still hilariously written
18:13:00 <btiffin> I might try and implement http://esolangs.org/wiki/COBOL the card language in COBOL, the yeah, that one.
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18:13:55 <Bike> common poker-oriented language
18:14:19 <monqy> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFxEW435R28 this isn't the cobol video but it's good too
18:15:00 <Bike> Oh hey, CGI integration. We can make cogs a reality
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18:15:53 <Bike> Even somebody worried about "my COBOL conundrum" says "apps", huh.
18:16:14 <kmc> can i write iPhone apps in COBOL and why not
18:16:17 <btiffin> :-) Get to the Vala, and GTK, then the Shakespeare. ;-)
18:16:58 <Bike> kmc: according to this video you can use java and stuff with it!
18:17:06 <btiffin> Yep, raspberry pi runs COBOL, and android phones, can't testify to iOS.
18:17:09 <kmc> java and stuff
18:17:21 <monqy> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUrdX9xJx58 ooh i think this one might be the cobol video
18:17:28 <kmc> a professional cobol programmer is known as a "coballer"
18:17:31 <Bike> Now the COBOL guys and the other language developers can all work together, using the same tools.
18:17:40 <monqy> yesss yessssss im pretty sure this is it
18:18:40 <Bike> omg she says rewriting in another language is what everyone else is doing
18:18:43 <Bike> be novel. use cobol
18:19:06 <kmc> cobol programmers will work for less pay just for the chance to use cobol at work
18:19:26 <Bike> I admire the people who came up with these advertisements. If someone paid me to advertise COBOL I would be at a loss.
18:19:33 <kmc> and looking for cobol experience means you get only the most elite hackers -- those who learned cobol for fun just because
18:20:15 <Bike> #esoteric: only the most elite hackers
18:20:40 <Bike> take the enterprise applications of the future into the next future. i am unfamiliar with this idiom
18:20:53 <kmc> detach the saucer section
18:20:57 <monqy> it's 11 minutes of cobol praise
18:21:04 <boily> good to see Friday's terror kicking in. elite cobol hackers?
18:21:19 <kmc> Friday's Terror would be a good name for a band
18:21:47 <zzo38> It is Good Friday today, actually.
18:21:55 <kmc> that's true
18:22:00 <Bike> is that like Man Friday
18:22:12 <kmc> in the Western christian calendar anyway
18:22:17 <boily> Good Man Friday Terror's Band.
18:22:21 <zzo38> If you like COBOL then you can program in COBOL if you want to (whether or not you use CGI)
18:22:31 <Bike> Yes. That is the case.
18:22:33 <btiffin> I think a nice enhancement might be ; "cobol-module-name", have cbrain call COBOL and stash the result at cell. hmm, then bf programmers could experience the bliss of the verbose
18:22:45 <zzo38> kmc: Well, yes, the Orthodox might be different
18:23:01 <Bike> So btiffin, you're a cobol programmer? do you do it at work?
18:23:15 <kmc> zzo38: it's May 3 i think
18:23:38 <kmc> dude next year easter is on 4/20, for both calendars
18:23:40 <kmc> duuuuuuuude
18:23:45 <Bike> “Moving beyond COBOL? Why? Move COBOL beyond.” seriously who wrote this
18:23:56 <zzo38> Well, it is sometimes the same.
18:23:58 <btiffin> Bike; Nope, hobby. Grew up on assembler, career in Forth, REBOL and GNU/ Linux building
18:24:09 <tswett> Define a band as a set of the form S \ T, where each of S and T can be written as the union of countably many closed sets.
18:24:17 <tswett> Can anyone think of a specific set of real numbers that is not a band?
18:24:31 <boily> `run ddate 3 5 2013
18:24:33 <HackEgo> Pungenday, Discord 50, 3179 YOLD
18:24:35 <zzo38> btiffin: But can you program the Famicom in assembler?
18:24:53 <kmc> can you ride with the console cowboys in cyberspace
18:25:01 <boily> kmc: it's on discoflux.
18:25:02 <btiffin> Fanboy of the OpenCOBOL, and zzo38, umm, not without some manuals. ;-)
18:25:05 <zzo38> It is more difficult because decimal mode doesn't work.
18:25:07 <kmc> boily: oh nice
18:25:23 <kmc> wait do you mean this year or next
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18:26:12 <tromp_> tswett: how about normal numbers?
18:26:14 <zzo38> btiffin: Of course I need some manuals too, but I am sure there are many.
18:26:35 <boily> kmc: this year fluxes.
18:26:43 <boily> `run ddate 20 4 2014
18:26:44 <HackEgo> Setting Orange, Discord 37, 3180 YOLD
18:26:46 <tswett> tromp_: ooh, good one.
18:26:53 <boily> no such luck for 2014's one.
18:27:01 <btiffin> zzo38: And now I count myself a fan of Daniels, pbrain.c is a nice read.
18:27:05 <kmc> `run ddate 20 4 2013
18:27:07 <HackEgo> Setting Orange, Discord 37, 3179 YOLD
18:27:15 <kmc> `run ddate
18:27:17 <HackEgo> Today is Pungenday, the 15th day of Discord in the YOLD 3179
18:27:32 <kmc> `run ddate 17 3 2013
18:27:33 <Bike> "The OpenCOBOL Lua interface is defined at a very high level."
18:27:33 <HackEgo> Sweetmorn, Discord 3, 3179 YOLD
18:27:40 <tswett> Yeah, it seems likely that the set of all normal numbers is not a band.
18:27:58 <Bike> this is some extremely commented code
18:27:59 <tswett> Are there uncountably many abnormal numbers?
18:28:15 <zzo38> Does ddate have an option to use the Julian calendar for conversion, rather than Gregorian?
18:28:43 <boily> zzo38: the man page makes that probably very unprobable.
18:28:53 <Bike> that sounds like a pain, since ddate is specified to be in eternal harmony with Gregorian
18:28:58 <tswett> Right, I guess you could take an arbitrary sequence of digits and put a bunch of 1s into it.
18:29:12 <Bike> by "a pain" i mean "it would take any amount of effort"
18:29:44 <Bike> "Of course using Scheme for financial calculations in an OpenCOBOL application would not be a smart usage. This is just a working sample."
18:29:47 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, but some people prefer Julian because the Principia Discordia, even though it says Gregorian, it also says that there is a leap year every four years, and that is how the Julian calendar works, not Gregorian.
18:29:51 <boily> the non-triviality of julianing ddate is non-homeopathic.
18:30:20 <Bike> zzo38: are you saying the discordia is flawed? pistols at dawn, sir
18:30:21 <btiffin> Bike; I have a blast cheerleading COBOL, in C space.
18:30:48 <monqy> is that one of those new fangled virtual reality games
18:30:50 <Bike> btiffin: by "a blast" do you mean everybody making fun of you which i'm sort of doing right now actually, even though that's mean
18:31:00 <boily> hey fungot, what do you have to say about julians, gregors, and discordianism?
18:31:01 <fungot> boily: if any of the next and employees not to delete any email that i am not in good working condition before our members.
18:31:06 <btiffin> Oh I know, and yep. Too much fun.
18:31:07 <zzo38> Bike: It even says, do not believe anything you read (that includes itself, of course).
18:31:19 <zzo38> Therefore do not take it too much literally.
18:31:32 <Bike> not that i'm like, trying to be mean, but some of this ad copy is seriously ridiculous
18:32:08 <Bike> zzo38: I'm a fundamentalist.
18:32:23 <tswett> So how easily can you prove that the set of all normal numbers is not a band...
18:32:38 <ThatOtherPerson> By the way, fungot, what do you think of my tesseractian model of sanity?
18:32:38 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: here you are, the month of a check. mark fillinger it development of the email that i mentioned on a voicemail.
18:32:45 <zzo38> I don't like religious fundamentalist, whether Christian or otherwise...
18:32:56 <Bike> Like I said. Pistols at dawn, sir.
18:33:13 <ThatOtherPerson> So one of your fundamental beliefs is that fundamentalists are bad?
18:33:39 <Bike> though this channel isn't exactly "a c space"
18:33:56 <btiffin> I'll accept that, and maybe tone it down someday Bike. I am a fan though and will likely continue the claims and woohoobisboombah.
18:34:14 <zzo38> ThatOtherPerson: Well, the religious "fundamentalists" I think are missing the point of a true religion, as far as I am concerned. That makes them a false religion.
18:34:20 <Bike> btiffin: does cobol use manual or automatic memory management?
18:34:48 <btiffin> Agree again Bike, just the vector that got me to cbrain, and Shakespeare and beatnik
18:35:00 <boily> ~duck woohoobisboombah
18:35:25 <ThatOtherPerson> If you are fundamentally against fundamentalists, does that make you a fundamentalist? If so, are you then fundamentally against yourself?
18:35:42 <zzo38> I don't know, but that is not what I meant.
18:35:46 <ThatOtherPerson> ... when I get like this it usually means I should go to sleep.
18:36:15 <boily> @localtime ThatOtherPerson
18:36:16 <lambdabot> Local time for ThatOtherPerson is Fri Mar 29 21:36:25
18:36:32 <boily> 9:36pm is usually a nice time to go to sleep.
18:38:20 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:45:30 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
18:56:29 <zzo38> Kristians miss the entire point of Christianity. It is a *metaphor* to guide you in spiritual growth. Kristians ignore the deep meaning. The wisdom Christianity contains was borrowed from dozens of predecessor religions. Kristians use Christianity to keep themselves in a state of spiritual stupor.
18:56:47 <zzo38> I agree with this statement, and it applies to all religious mythology not only Christian.
18:57:05 <Bike> kristian kreme
18:57:39 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/5970af4f5925b41d2e0850a496bef0f8/tumblr_mkfce3sn6X1rhcorso1_1280.jpg
18:58:37 <zzo38> This report defines "Kristian" as a false Christian; like the stupid stuff the fundamentalists do.
19:00:18 <Bike> the revised^903 report on the belief system "nicean"
19:01:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, until i noticed the woman i thought the crab was committing suicide
19:09:40 -!- augur has joined.
19:09:44 <boily> ³ exists, but ⁹ and ⁰ are taken from a mysterious, unidentifiable fallback.
19:11:21 <elliott> so the 3 is misaligned with the 9 and 0
19:12:44 <boily> still haven't figured out how fontconfig works and chooses fonts. every contact I've had with it trying to configure that beast resulted in me losing on average ~570 ml of blood.
19:13:13 <elliott> looks like i only have 123 in terminus
19:13:16 <nooodl> i'm guessing only ² and ³ look ok?
19:13:35 <boily> same here, no ⁽⁾⁻⁼⁺ in terminus.
19:14:15 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:14:38 <Taneb> Should I solve the Chinese Graphics Card Problem once and for all
19:14:40 <Taneb> Or should I watch anime
19:15:05 <oerjan> Taneb: s/Graphics Card //
19:15:13 <boily> you can't do both at the same time?
19:15:20 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
19:15:31 <oerjan> solve it _with_ anime, duh
19:15:36 <zzo38> Did you eat the blood you have previously lost?
19:15:45 <elliott> Taneb: didn't you say you solved it.
19:16:03 <elliott> did your new graphics card turn out to be chinese too
19:16:05 <Taneb> That the problem had BARELY JUST BEGUN
19:16:43 <kmc> the Chinese Graphics Card Problem is known to be PSPACE-complete
19:16:53 <boily> zzo38: nah, I keep it in 4D self-referential jars.
19:16:58 <Phantom_Hoover> otoh trying to do so will build character, moreso than watching anime
19:17:20 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, even if said anime is ridiculawesome?
19:17:53 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover is Calvin's dad, it all makes sense now
19:20:16 <Halite> why is there a tesseract in my living room
19:20:43 -!- btiffin has left.
19:20:46 <Taneb> (wouldn't a tesseract just look like a wobbly cube?)
19:21:08 <oerjan> why does Halite get to have a tesseract in his living room
19:23:27 -!- mrtrop has left.
19:25:04 <Taneb> oerjan, maybe it's just a wobbly cube that looks like it could be a tesseract
19:25:47 <Halite> it's not a wobbly cube
19:26:01 <Halite> it's moving in the ana direction and I can't see it anymore
19:26:26 <Halite> it just moved in the kata direction back to its original position and I can see it now
19:26:44 <oerjan> Halite: you should grab a hold of it and travel into unknown dimensions
19:27:20 <Halite> oerjan, I can make it move in directions. I could use it to travel through dimensions!
19:27:28 <oerjan> that's what i would want a tesseract for, anyway
19:27:33 <Halite> Goodbye, hitching a ride on the tesseract...
19:27:56 <Halite> ah cool, there's a laptop in this dimension
19:28:12 <Halite> and a desktop computer!
19:28:36 <oerjan> i think you may be traveling in circles. or maybe you are an alternative Halite
19:29:08 <Halite> I am Halite, I am exactly 2010 years old. It is the year 3013.
19:29:22 <oerjan> that would be somewhat disappointing, traveling through dimensions and all looking the same
19:29:43 <Halite> true, but I don't see the same
19:29:58 <Halite> I'm on a desktop computer in an alternate dimension at the moment
19:30:10 <oerjan> hi Halite how was the medieval age
19:30:20 <shachaf> Weren't you banned or something?
19:30:32 <Halite> shachaf, from haskell, not from here
19:30:44 <kmc> are 'ana' and 'kata' canonical names for directions in a fourth spatial dimension?
19:30:47 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:31:13 <kmc> do cross products work in 4D or not
19:31:21 <Halite> it's simply explained like this
19:31:34 <kmc> "if the product is limited to non-trivial binary products with vector results, it exists only in three and seven dimensions"
19:31:35 <oerjan> kmc: nope, you need to cross 3 vectors to get one back
19:32:12 <Halite> Take some 0D point. When you duplicate the point and move it in a new direction, you get a one-dimensional line.
19:32:30 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:32:36 <Halite> Take the line and duplicate the line and move it in a new direction. You connect the lines and get a square.
19:32:55 <Halite> Take the square and duplicate and move and connect blaryblar, you get a cube.
19:33:04 <Halite> Now, for the 4D tesseract:
19:33:18 <Taneb> Screw this, I'm watching anime
19:33:29 <Halite> Take the cube and duplicate it. Move the duplicate in a new direction and connect the cubes. You get a tesseract.
19:34:37 <Halite> screw anime, I'm watching my tesseract
19:35:00 <Halite> my tesseract is as powerful as a spaceship
19:37:27 <hagb4rdoux> Halite: as your lawyer, i advice you to upgrade to a bistro-drive!
19:37:29 <hagb4rdoux> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Bistromathematics
19:38:26 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:39:39 <boily> nooodl: Tanebと嵌めいますか？？？
19:40:34 <oerjan> but is it a giant mecha tesseract?
19:41:41 <nooodl> i was making an awful "screw" pun :(
19:41:56 <boily> nooodl: oh, sorry. should have caught it sooner.
19:42:26 <pikhq> oerjan: Colloquial use of verbs fucks it up.
19:42:39 <pikhq> "嵌める" is "to insert" or colloquially "to fuck".
19:43:01 <FreeFull> Bistro-drives are much more whale and teapot friendly
19:43:03 <nooodl> ("to screw" in my MAGNIFICENT pun)
19:44:08 <elliott> cjk looks like such shit in this terminal
19:44:52 <boily> I think my system has reached, completely by accident and cosmological coincidences, a state where japanese and/or trad. chinese characters display correctly.
19:45:10 <elliott> by such shit I mean ugly. not incorrect
19:45:12 <FreeFull> Although pixellated because it defaults to unifont for these glyphs
19:45:22 <boily> simplified characters are fscking ugly and augment my blood-loss average by a significant amount.
19:45:59 <pikhq> Simplified characters are also harder. Ironically.
19:46:02 <nooodl> solution: use ms gothic for everything
19:46:48 <boily> I have a plethora of a multitude of various diverse CJK fonts. I don't know which one's being displayed on my screen at this moment.
19:47:16 <nooodl> solution: delete all but one of them
19:48:49 <boily> nah. I'm a font horder.
19:49:15 <boily> I even managed to find a copy of the one that's used in bakemonogatari!
19:50:21 <hagb4rdoux> boily: there is this useful google font api cdn.. ever used it? they gotta lot of fonts
19:51:01 <boily> hagb4rdoux: yep, multiple times, but I find that fontsquirrel is more practical.
19:51:33 <oerjan> hagb4rdoux: are you trying to fit in with the french
19:51:42 <hagb4rdoux> but collecting fonts is kind of contradictory to have them delivered on demand
19:53:16 <kmc> apt-get install ttf-*
19:53:22 <zzo38> Simplified Chinese is more difficult to undersatnd and worse in other ways
19:53:33 <kmc> which ways zzo38?
19:54:10 <boily> bye all! see you on tuesday, perhaps!
19:54:11 <kmc> zzo38: you're something of a technological reactionary aren't you
19:54:16 <kmc> good bye boily
19:54:33 <boily> be careful of easter eggs, they can latch onto your face a breed a new species of mutant rabbits!
19:54:36 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
19:54:39 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:54:50 <kmc> bye bye metasepia
19:54:55 <pikhq> zzo38: Easier to write.
19:54:59 <pikhq> Harder to remember though.
19:55:20 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, harder to remember and harder to understand.
19:55:33 <zzo38> Even my Wikipedia says that I don't like Simplified Chinese
19:57:25 -!- hagb4rdoux has changed nick to hagb4rd.
19:57:56 <hagb4rd> @tell Arc_Koen so liked the live-electro-session yesterday? but you missed the best part! fortunatly i have a raw record shared right here for you :) ..be sure to check that DJ at ~15:00 ..epic <3 -> https://www.box.com/8bit-eastereggs
20:03:33 <oerjan> <AnotherTest> what if North Korea throws a nuke? <-- then Kim Jong-Un and his generals all get Darwin Awards of the Century.
20:14:55 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:23:57 <kmc> yeah, the question is mostly how many south koreans will die before the US air force is finished leveling North Korea
20:24:58 <kmc> my hope is that the NK leadership aren't really as crazy as they look, but have realized that acting crazy is a good way to get concessions from the International Community
20:25:04 <kmc> elliott: that's true
20:25:13 <elliott> turns out they're people :P
20:25:51 <Fiora> part of it is also an internal thing, having to act tough to maintain political influence I think
20:25:54 <kmc> although their lives are already shitty so it's less of a marginal harm?
20:26:02 <zzo38> People make a lot of mistakes, but people make a lot of other things too.
20:26:03 <kmc> this is the kind of basically awful conclusion that you get from utilitarianism
20:26:03 <Fiora> like with ahmedinejad's boasts and so forth
20:26:26 <kmc> Fiora: true, although Iran is somewhat a democracy and it's useful for the leaders to distract the people from domestic issues
20:26:33 <kmc> no such concern in NK
20:26:38 <zzo38> Do you know if ImageMagick can use voltage/phase color formats?
20:26:47 <kmc> the economy has been shit for 50 years and the people are brainwashed to ignore it
20:26:50 <kmc> that doesn't work in Iran so much
20:27:04 <Fiora> that's true, though, they still use a lot of the stuff they do as propaganda in NK
20:27:23 <Fiora> there's lies in it of course, like when they claimed the failed satellite launch succeeded and used that as propaganda, but
20:27:36 <kmc> but they could literally tell their people they had nuked los angeles and most of them would never find out anything to the contrary
20:27:50 <Fiora> it seems to be an important ego thing, I don't know
20:28:01 <Fiora> they like doing things and then bragging about them to the populace
20:28:05 <Fiora> (or pretending they worked and then doing it)
20:28:30 <elliott> kmc: I hear that tales of total north korean brainwashing are exaggerated in the west
20:28:40 <kmc> oh no have we been brainwashed
20:28:49 <elliott> and that most of them are plenty aware that their government sucks
20:28:50 <Fiora> that is true too :p
20:28:56 <elliott> of course I have no evidence either way
20:29:04 <Fiora> there are some good accounts from people who escaped and so on
20:29:15 <Fiora> terrifying reads, but interesting ones
20:29:20 <elliott> but it sounds plausible that this kind of brainwashing story would be blown out of proportion to make north korea look as scary and evil as possible or such
20:29:30 <kmc> why does china still put up with them
20:29:47 <kmc> it's not like the US and unified Korea are going to start a war with china
20:30:04 <kmc> seems p. unlikely
20:30:14 <Fiora> I think it's partially a distraction, but also they really really really don't want to have to deal with all the refugees?
20:30:35 <kmc> well china
20:30:39 <kmc> sometimes you gotta take one for the team
20:31:24 <kmc> if everyone from NK moved to china it would increase the population of china by like 1.8%
20:31:48 <elliott> i think a 1.8% increase in population would give china a heart attack
20:31:59 <elliott> since they already have approx. 129 billion people
20:32:06 <kmc> nah it's fine
20:32:16 <Bike> has anyone ever really been "brainwashed"
20:32:22 <Fiora> 1.8% is still kind of a lot I guess, especially when integration would be really difficult
20:32:24 <zzo38> ImageMagick does not seem to have a voltage/phase colorspace, although it does have many.
20:32:25 <kmc> Bike: sirhan sirhan
20:32:30 <Fiora> I mean that's like 6 million people entering the US
20:32:51 <kmc> Fiora: the difference is that the US economy is turbofucked
20:33:00 <Fiora> and geez, china's isn't?
20:33:04 <kmc> economy *and* political process
20:33:05 <elliott> i thought i had a stupid idea but i forgot it
20:33:20 <Bike> kmc: i don't really know anything about him actually, is he as crazy as czolgosz was
20:33:23 <Fiora> they're kind of floating on a soap bubble made out of bad bank loans
20:33:33 <kmc> that's fine
20:33:45 <elliott> you can wash yourself with loans?
20:33:51 <Bike> anyway if i've learned anything from syria and libya it's that nobody likes refugees ever at all
20:33:53 <kmc> they have an autocracy, the government can just fix everything unilaterally
20:34:01 <kmc> whilst ignoring human rights
20:34:05 <kmc> but it won't really be worse than now
20:34:20 <Fiora> it's not really an autocracy... it's an oligarchy kind of, but...
20:34:27 <Fiora> imagine going up to a group of 15 other representatives of the party
20:34:29 <Fiora> and trying to convince them
20:34:39 <kmc> n.b. I am like 20% serious here at most
20:34:40 <Fiora> that taking in 20 million people and budgeting for them
20:34:41 <Fiora> will be a great idea
20:34:43 <Bike> Plus a lot of the Chinese leadership is probably invested in those sorts of things, they might not be willing to just disaparate it.
20:34:59 <Fiora> people kind of falsely view china as some magic dictatorship, it has just as much politicking as the US
20:35:03 <Fiora> (just, a lot more quiet about it)
20:35:28 <Fiora> and if someone wants to change china's policy internally they need to get support and influence from others in the party
20:35:39 <elliott> if there's any kind of dictatorship i can get behind it's a magical one
20:35:48 * Bike only knows anything about Chinese business politics from that anonops group that looked for fraud in Chinese corps
20:36:05 <elliott> execution by firing squad and/or avada kedavra
20:36:42 <Fiora> I guess it's kinda like. in a lot of ways it's not that amazingly different from here, since it's... well, still run by politicians
20:36:53 <kmc> fair enough
20:36:55 <Bike> that sounds pretty hard to market to Fox fiora
20:37:07 <Bike> could you maybe rephrase that in a more insultingly reductionist way
20:37:13 <kmc> at least their politicians are scientists and engineers and not lawyers
20:37:21 <elliott> ok i have a proposal: make kim jong-un queen and we'll take over north korea
20:37:33 <kmc> (this is probably a bad preference)
20:37:36 <Fiora> I'm not sure how true that is in this upcoming generation of Party members
20:37:45 <Fiora> (I don't know if it's any less true, but it might be?)
20:37:50 <Bike> kmc: Something something dams.
20:37:59 <Bike> elliott: You know that Kim Il-Sung is still president?
20:38:15 -!- Halite has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:38:18 <elliott> i don't see any problem here
20:38:30 <Fiora> huh, Xi was still a chemial engineer. cool
20:38:30 <Bike> The British political process is truly efficient.
20:39:17 <elliott> visiting north korea would be kind of cool except it'd actually be awful and terrible
20:40:13 <Fiora> kmc: I guess a more political summary would be "the gap between us and china isn't actually that large -- look how little of a difference one needs to become an authoritarian state"
20:40:14 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
20:41:00 <Bike> sometime i need to find a diehard mccarthyist and ask them what they think was goingn on when china invaded vietnam
20:41:37 <oerjan> `addquote <Bike> elliott: atlas shrugged is basically about wacking galt repeatedly with a giant platonic solid
20:41:45 <HackEgo> 997) <Bike> elliott: atlas shrugged is basically about wacking galt repeatedly with a giant platonic solid
20:42:00 <Bike> alt about the sino-albanian split because who cares about the sino-albanian split?
20:42:58 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania#Communist_Albania makes it sound p. nice
20:43:41 <Bike> the nicest part of albania is the names. "Hoxhaism" and "Zogist" for instance
20:43:42 <elliott> Bike: something about parentheses :-) the joke is that mccarthy made lisp :-)
20:43:48 <kmc> ok I grudgingly support religious freedom, but literacy and industrial growth sound nice
20:43:58 <Phantom_Hoover> why is everyone talking about north korea all of a sudden
20:44:02 <elliott> wait i'm going to say soemthing witty on the topic so it can be added as a quote:
20:44:06 <kmc> Bike: not to mention Shqipëria
20:44:11 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: because they threatened to nuke something probably
20:44:11 <AnotherTest> Phantom_Hoover: I think I caused that sorry
20:44:38 <kmc> the nicest part of albania is the brand new western style hotel that let me use their western style toilets even though I obviously had no intention of staying there
20:44:42 <FireFly> AnotherTest: stop threatening to nuke stuff!
20:44:50 <FireFly> AnotherTest: oh wait you're not Kim, sorry
20:44:52 <elliott> it's such a shame the inventor of lisp was um
20:44:59 <elliott> someone else gets to make the dumb joke
20:45:02 <kmc> after the 12 hour ride on Crazy Holidays bus with no toilets
20:45:27 <kmc> that stopped once at a rest area which had only squat toilets
20:45:29 <Bike> elliott: a poof
20:45:33 -!- AnotherTest has changed nick to KimJong-Un.
20:45:44 <Bike> kim jong ummmmm
20:45:57 <kmc> squat toilets are OK i guess, but not so much when many of the users don't know how to use them
20:46:14 <elliott> toilets are gross; outlaw toilets
20:46:35 <kmc> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/01/hitlers-toilet-new-jersey-auto-repair-station_n_2592902.html
20:47:23 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_Xilaihttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Lijun_incident this incident was really interesting
20:47:39 <elliott> your links had a bit of a collision there
20:49:11 <Bike> Oh, that was all over the news, wasn't it?
20:49:37 <kmc> The Chongqing municipal government declared that Wang was receiving "vacation-style medical treatment".
20:49:38 <Bike> "vacation-style medical treatment", lol. I think the KGB said something similar during the 1991 coup.
20:49:51 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> it's such a shame the inventor of lisp was um <elliott> ok i give up
20:49:53 <Fiora> I don't remember seeing it much in western news? it was one of those things that was hard to explain or define a right and wrong
20:49:55 <HackEgo> 998) <elliott> it's such a shame the inventor of lisp was um <elliott> ok i give up
20:50:10 <Fiora> Bo was disliked by Party people because of his populist message and, well, popularity
20:50:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, i definitely heard about the murdering a british businessman thing
20:50:27 <Fiora> but his wife also laundered literally billions of yuan in money, probably from bribes, out of the country
20:50:51 <Fiora> and there's suspicion that's what led to the murder, with the guy who was murdered demanding a larger cut of the money
20:51:27 <Bike> I don't remember seeing it much in western news? <-- I'm pretty sure I got it from popular sources. I mean, it involves a Westerner, that's a way to get people to "care".
20:51:28 <Fiora> she has a suspended death sentence for her alleged role in ordering the murder + money laundering I thnk
20:51:50 <Bike> Oh, and the US consolate.
20:52:08 <Fiora> it was really controversial within china too because many people really liked Bo, and viewed it as a Party plot (or by at least some people in the Party who were his enemies) to smear him
20:52:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, in your considered opinion is that thing about falun gong organs true
20:52:29 <Bike> I'm going to guess no and I don't even know what you're talking about.
20:52:34 <Bike> Harvesting organs from Gong adherents?
20:52:59 <Bike> Oh, hey, the Wikipedia article cites the NYT among others, Fiora.
20:53:16 <Fiora> Bike: sorry, I meant more like. a lot of the in-china details felt like they got less coverage I guess
20:53:27 <Bike> Oh well yeah :P
20:53:31 <Fiora> but I guess I don't read news much so
20:53:36 <Fiora> I can't really honestly judge <_>
20:53:37 <Bike> "some chinese guy is seeking US asylum???"
20:53:51 <Bike> "possibly red communists involved"
20:54:10 <Bike> "China Red Star Bo Xilai Denies Son Drives a Red Ferrari – China Real Time Report – WSJ". The Wall Street Journal. <-- Or I could just let the actual headlines talk, haha jesus.
20:55:00 <Fiora> see. it really is just like US politicans XD
20:55:34 <elliott> i would like to complain about the notion that a political system can be not that bad because it's just as good as the US's
20:55:51 <Fiora> sorry, I didn't mean to say "wasn't that bad" but rather
20:56:08 <Fiora> it feels wrong to view it as this alien magical dictatorship thing, instead of a political system filled with real people
20:56:12 <elliott> oh i wasn't complaining about anyone in particular
20:56:28 <elliott> i agree your point isr easonable, it's just ridiculous to me that people would take that as a good thing about china
20:57:17 <Fiora> I think there sees to be at least this small tendency of some nerds to want to think china's system might be good because (they say) it is better at looking into the future and making decisions that aren't just about the next election term and so they can undertake large projects and so on
20:57:48 <Fiora> but I don't think that's really that true, they have just as much politicking and so many politicians are in it for short-term gain and the long-term-outlook seems to be by far the exception
20:58:01 <Fiora> and because the system works so slowly it can take decades to get rid of old ideas
20:58:27 <kmc> i don't think china's system is good, because i like human rights
20:58:28 <Fiora> (and the whole "it's run by engineers!" thing)
20:58:37 <kmc> but it might be more /effective/
20:58:48 <Fiora> I guess that's (kind of) what I mean?
20:58:58 <kmc> also Albania sounds like it was run by someone who has just started playing a RTS game and is bad at it
20:59:00 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:59:04 <kmc> "FUCK IT, BUNKERS EVERYWHERE"
20:59:09 <elliott> good thing to point at people who think technocracy is a good idea
20:59:44 <Fiora> kmc: like the Atlantic Wall, too?
21:00:51 <kmc> window pops up "sir you have spent 2% of your GDP on bunkers"
21:01:16 <kmc> fuck it, more bunkers
21:01:59 <Fiora> that almost feels like how the german government worked in the 40s
21:02:16 <kmc> they were actually at war though
21:02:28 <Fiora> oh geez, and albania wasn't? XD
21:02:31 <Fiora> when they built all the bunkers
21:02:43 -!- Bike has joined.
21:02:56 <zzo38> Where can I buy 3-buttons non-wheel mouse?
21:03:00 <kmc> nah it was just cold war paranoia
21:03:16 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunkers_in_Albania
21:03:30 <Phantom_Hoover> was it predicated on the assumption nobody would waste expensive enriched fissiles on albania
21:03:31 <kmc> they thought that china and russia and NATO would invade all at once
21:03:33 <Bike> was albania in the non-aligned movemented
21:03:35 <elliott> kmc: I like "they were actually at war though" "and albania wasn't?" "nah it was just cold war paranoia"
21:03:48 <kmc> because of course everyone wants to capture Albania
21:04:04 <kmc> it's #1 priority for every superpower
21:04:08 <kmc> elliott: well.... yes
21:04:12 <kmc> > "war" == "cold war"
21:04:12 <Bike> the cold war wasn't really a war, just a metawar. instead of killing the other guys you get some guys to kill the guys the other guys set up to kill your killer guys.
21:04:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, and also you see who goes broke from making nukes first.
21:04:41 <elliott> afaict the cold war was basically just everyone being bitter about all the wars for a while
21:04:42 <kmc> we outsourced war to the 3rd world, like everything else
21:05:06 <kmc> (this being the origin of the term '3rd world' in fact)
21:05:26 <elliott> wait the berlin wall was only built in 1961? god dammit i know literally nothing about history
21:05:40 <Bike> elliott: Before that they just used dudes with guns.
21:05:49 <kmc> i think there were border controls before that
21:05:57 <Bike> I mean it was still a wall, just not a wall wall.
21:06:12 <Bike> There was that whole airlift thing.
21:06:19 <kmc> for example west berlin was completely cut off in 1948 - 1949 and had to be supplied by air
21:06:22 <kmc> damn it bike
21:06:31 <Phantom_Hoover> if they'd had 3d printers they could've made a literal gun war
21:07:02 <kmc> the berlin wall museum is pretty interesting
21:07:11 <kmc> as is the DDR Museum
21:07:18 <kmc> no it's not about Dance Dance Revolution you nerds
21:07:26 <kmc> they don't make her live in the museum
21:07:51 <Bike> okay FDR is federal democratic republic = east germany right
21:07:57 <Bike> or did i get that backwards somehow
21:08:22 <kmc> DDR is east germany
21:08:31 <FireFly> Deutsche demokratische republik
21:08:32 <kmc> deutsche democratische republik (n.b. cannot spell germany)
21:09:39 <FireFly> extra vowels => other country
21:09:46 <kmc> west germany was Bundesrepublik Deutschland (BRD) or translated FRG
21:10:57 <oerjan> @tell btiffin <btiffin> I might try and implement http://esolangs.org/wiki/COBOL the card language in COBOL, the yeah, that one. <-- i couldn't possibly oppose this
21:11:21 <Bike> btiffin never answered my question about cobol :(
21:14:02 <oerjan> @ask Taneb Is the inventor of http://www.freewebs.com/manyhills/cobol.htm the same as the one on the IWC forum? ISTR you passing through murderous math forum on the way here, which is mentioned on the parent page.
21:18:06 <oerjan> modern unified germany is _still_ Bundesrepublik Deutschland fwiw.
21:18:32 -!- KimJong-Un has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
21:19:11 <oerjan> they just absorbed east germany as a bunch of new states (Länder iirc)
21:20:14 <pikhq> (for confusing reasons West Berlin was a seperate entity)
21:21:53 <kmc> http://www.titanic-magazin.de/uploads/pics/card_377670833.jpg
21:22:42 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:23:19 <pikhq> Oh that's hilarious.
21:23:27 <pikhq> So, for various reasons West Berlin had its own laws.
21:23:52 <pikhq> Their legislature simply voted in each law that passed in West Germany without debate.
21:25:58 -!- nooodl has joined.
21:28:38 <olsner> hmm, west berlin was surrounded by east germany? how did that work?
21:29:25 <kmc> the east german govt allowed certain forms of travel in and out, except when they didn't (see blockade mentioned above)
21:29:40 <kmc> like you could get a train that would go nonstop from west berlin to the west german border
21:29:55 <olsner> I've always sort of assumed berlin was in the middle of germany and split because it was straddling the border
21:30:17 <pikhq> Nope, it was split because military occupations are funky.
21:30:30 <kmc> aiui it was split because the Western Allies rushed to capture part of Berlin even though the USSR had captured the surrounding area already
21:30:40 <Bike> Also notable is that Germany was actually split into four. It's just that the three Allies kinda merged their bit.
21:30:56 <Fiora> it's like the king solomon approach to countries
21:31:08 <Bike> Except that they went "cut it!", yes
21:31:17 -!- Halite has joined.
21:31:20 <pikhq> Yeah, there were 4 different sectors of Berlin. The USSR just wanted to take their ball and go home.
21:31:24 <kmc> also some of the West Berlin U-Bahn subway lines ran through East Berlin without stopping
21:31:46 <kmc> so your morning commute might involve not just a train ride in a foreign country but a train ride across the Iron Curtain and into hostile territory
21:32:09 <pikhq> There was even a station that was in East Berlin, but with the only entrances in West Berlin.
21:32:14 <kmc> Friedrichstraße station became a border crossing
21:32:22 <Bike> the west must have had to do some pretty fantastic marketing to get people to actually live in those conditions
21:32:42 <kmc> it had an international transit lounge (like an airport) where the DDR govt sold duty-free cigarettes
21:32:45 <pikhq> Bike: The West German economy was significantly better-off.
21:33:03 <Bike> pikhq: I mean, to get people to live in West Berlin rather than the contiguous parts of West Germany.
21:33:10 <pikhq> This includes West Berlin.
21:33:37 <kmc> it's a fair point, it's not like West Berlin was the capital anymore
21:33:41 <kmc> but still a big city with jobs and shit
21:34:00 <pikhq> Yeah, it was a huge city then.
21:34:25 <pikhq> And a lot of people would've already called it home by the time of the occupation.
21:35:08 <kmc> moving and finding a new job and such is a huge barrier
21:35:33 <kmc> it's sort of like, why doesn't everyone in Greece and Cyprus and Spain move to Germany?
21:35:36 <kmc> technically they could
21:35:55 <Bike> I know, it just seems like there might not be much population replacement, and some trickle out.
21:36:15 <pikhq> Bike: Also, West Berliners were exempt from West German military conscription.
21:36:25 <Bike> Oh, well then.
21:36:29 <kmc> pikhq: handy
21:36:30 <pikhq> So, you had incentive for counterculture young people to go to West Germany.
21:36:42 <kmc> is that why berlin is so awesome now
21:40:35 <kmc> damn now i want currywurst
21:40:43 <kmc> fortunately I can make this dream a reality
21:41:06 <elliott> Cury was the wurst. he didn't even invent haskell.
21:42:04 <kmc> elliott: die in a fire
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21:48:46 <Gregor> olsner: Indian or Thai?
21:49:30 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: is Gregor a curry purist?
21:50:04 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, he has strong opinions on food despite the fact that he does not in fact have a sense of taste
21:50:09 <olsner> I can say with certainty that one of the ingredients was thai red curry paste
21:50:26 <Gregor> Oh, so you didn't make curry at all.
21:50:49 <Gregor> As you guessed, I'm a curry purist ;)
21:50:54 <olsner> what is required to call it curry?
21:51:02 <Gregor> When I make Thai curry, I certainly don't include any ingredients with "curry" in the name.
21:51:10 <Gregor> Because then you didn't make the curry, you just used a curry mix.
21:51:21 <Gregor> (Which is fine and dandy, but IMPURE AND UNHOLY)
21:52:27 <olsner> so by "the curry" you mean only the spice mix and not any of the food that you usually make with it? in my book, the result of putting curry in food is a curry
21:53:14 <Gregor> I only use curry mixes to make things other than curries.
21:53:21 <Gregor> I put curry powder in egg salad, not curry :)
21:53:57 <pikhq> Gregor: There's more curries than Indian or Thai you know.
21:54:03 <Gregor> (I'm just being a pretentious twat here ;) )
21:54:05 * pikhq likes Japanese curry.
21:54:11 <Gregor> pikhq: Yes, but those are the two that usually come to mind.
21:54:17 <oerjan> 18:24:09: <tswett> Define a band as a set of the form S \ T, where each of S and T can be written as the union of countably many closed sets.
21:54:21 <oerjan> 18:24:17: <tswett> Can anyone think of a specific set of real numbers that is not a band?
21:54:23 <Gregor> Also, I've never had a Japanese or Chinese curry that I could rate as better than abominable.
21:54:38 <oerjan> aka "the intersection of an F_sigma and a G_delta set"
21:55:35 <pikhq> Gregor: This is no doubt because you only fnarf.
22:00:45 <Phantom_Hoover> psure Gregor and pikhq have had this exact conversation before
22:01:23 <oerjan> aka "Delta_2^0 sets", apparently.
22:01:34 <Gregor> TO FNARF, PERCHANCE TO TASTE
22:02:00 <oerjan> that's if it's both kinds simultaneously, not the intersection of each
22:02:15 <olsner> to boldly fnarf what none have fnarfed before
22:03:26 * oerjan doesn't actually recall any answer to the actual question, though.
22:06:37 <fizzie> We had visitors and now I'm decidedly fuzzy.
22:06:56 <fizzie> In the sense of having to retype everything thrice.
22:07:16 <kmc> f i z z i e
22:07:32 <fizzie> Sadly, I think #esoteric was a topic of discussion only thrice or so.
22:07:34 <oerjan> fizzie: not in the sense of being covered with fuzz?
22:07:48 <fizzie> Thrice, that's a funy word.
22:07:54 <oerjan> fizzie: btw with your nick, shouldn't you always be covered with fuzz.
22:08:02 <olsner> you discussed #esoteric? with who/what?
22:08:42 <oerjan> oh no, soon we'll have folks invading here D:
22:08:48 <fizzie> One of them was an ineiros who's on-channel and lall.
22:09:08 <oerjan> ineiros_: did you hear fizzie calls you folk
22:09:27 <oerjan> probably not, idle for 16 days
22:09:31 <fizzie> I might call him folksy.
22:09:47 <fizzie> It's not accurate, but still.
22:16:34 <fizzie> He has a long way from home here, and things to do, AIUI.
22:18:11 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:20:09 -!- Bike has joined.
22:21:45 <fizzie> We went through a litre of gin and some assorted varieties of things, anyway. Can't ask for too much after that. Including not calling folks occasionally folks.
22:27:41 <fizzie> I am not very likable I am very durnk it is not amusing.
22:30:03 <lambdabot> hagb4rd: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:30:27 <olsner> fizzie: I find it a bit amusing
22:30:30 <fizzie> Not stoned, just durnk. It's a different thing altogether.
22:30:43 <fizzie> olsner: Things work out just right if I only use one eye.
22:30:56 <olsner> close your eyes and touch type?
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22:31:04 <fizzie> I think that might work fine too.
22:31:15 <fizzie> Except I did not look whether it did.
22:31:30 <fizzie> Anyhoo, I'm gonna assume it did, it's not like there's any reason for it not to.
22:32:11 <fizzie> There might be a problem if I get things left or rightoff by one key.
22:32:32 <olsner> you should have those notches on f and j to set you straight
22:32:46 -!- heroux has joined.
22:32:53 <fizzie> I do have those things. ( confess. I peeked.)
22:33:18 <olsner> beware the floor though, it tends to sneak up on you when you're drunk
22:34:14 <fizzie> If I rest my head on the thing that's behind me on the chair I get this feeling as if I might fall asleep or something, I think that might be related.
22:34:32 <fizzie> What is that thing called.
22:35:13 <hagb4rd> keep in mind: alcohol is not a solution..
22:35:51 <fizzie> It sure is. We certainly compounded with interest. (That's a poorly thought out accounting joke.)
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22:39:49 <hagb4rd> <fizzie>If I rest my head on the thing that's behind me on the chair I get this feeling as if I might fall asleep or something <-- horrorshow droog! don't try this at home kids
22:40:18 <fizzie> Is a "horrorshow droong" what it's called=
22:40:55 <hagb4rd> fears and loathing with fizzie: http://soomka.com/nadsat.html
22:40:56 <Koen_> hagb4rd: so apparently having the friday off is a protestant thing, whereas only monday is catholic
22:40:57 <kmc> horrorshow is a corruption of khorosho meaning "cool"
22:41:31 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:41:33 <hagb4rd> actually i thought it means "good"
22:41:38 <oerjan> and having thursday, friday _and_ monday off is norwegian hth.
22:41:55 * kmc was cured allright
22:42:03 <fizzie> We have a Friday and a Monday off HTH HTHAND.
22:42:24 -!- heroux has joined.
22:42:37 <oerjan> i think the swedes may too, it's the thursday which is unusual for norway
22:43:11 <oerjan> every maundy thursday scores of norwegians roam across the swedish border to buy alcohol.
22:43:13 <hagb4rd> erm what are we talking about again?
22:43:22 <olsner> it seems that in norway every day is off
22:43:52 <fizzie> iT WAS QUITE QUIET AT WORK AT WORK ON FRIDAY.
22:44:08 <fizzie> Anyhow I meant Thursday.
22:44:14 <fizzie> Friday hasn't happened yet.
22:44:25 <olsner> friday is today, I believe
22:44:41 <fizzie> Technically I think it's Saturday here.
22:44:46 <zzo38> In this timezone is Good Friday today.
22:44:52 <olsner> if today was thursday I would've accidentally a day off from work
22:44:58 <zzo38> (It is good because you don't have to go to work)
22:44:58 -!- hogeyui has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
22:45:27 <olsner> in Swedish it's Long Friday and for some reason the tradition says you have to be bored the whole day
22:45:39 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> In this timezone is Good Friday today. <zzo38> (It is good because you don't have to go to work)
22:45:43 <HackEgo> 999) <zzo38> In this timezone is Good Friday today. <zzo38> (It is good because you don't have to go to work)
22:45:51 <hagb4rd> we had all these parties yesterday.. but the easter-friday itself public-celebratation is illegal in germany
22:45:55 <HackEgo> 998) <elliott> it's such a shame the inventor of lisp was um <elliott> ok i give up
22:46:25 <oerjan> i recall there is an ancient superstition in norway that any work started on good friday will end in disaster.
22:46:36 <fizzie> The students at the university have the thursday to next wednesday off, or something.
22:46:52 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, what was the public opinion of the good friday agreement
22:46:56 <fizzie> I made them exercises for Tuesday and they said it's the easter and they're not a do a thing.
22:47:08 <Bike> i vote 1000 be a zzote
22:47:17 <olsner> I think university students here usually have one week off for easter, then a couple of almost-off weeks when nothing happens except exams
22:47:26 <hagb4rd> it's the only day in the year, and it's most controlversial (and also kind of deprecated)
22:47:34 <Koen_> hagb4rd: so you celebrate on thursday instead?
22:47:40 <fizzie> We have four exam periods a year.
22:47:54 <hagb4rd> just everyday but not friday
22:48:04 <fizzie> One at the end of end of spring and one at the end of autumn and two at the mid-parts of each.
22:48:33 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i don't recall was that something irish?
22:49:01 <Phantom_Hoover> it's the agreement that effectively ended the Troubles
22:49:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: have you noticed that google result summaries are grey now
22:49:34 <oerjan> "work started" means new projects, btw.
22:49:52 <oerjan> hard boring work was apparently encouraged.
22:50:26 <Koen_> "boring friday - happy resurrection"
22:52:36 <hagb4rd> absolutely.. well there are a lot of illegal inofficial parites around.. ppl just feel pissed about such restrictions
22:54:09 <hagb4rd> we are a secular state in the end
22:54:52 <kmc> the liberal european sort of state-sponsored religion is pretty amusing
22:58:45 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you go to work today?
22:59:04 <shachaf> zzo38: By the way, three-button mice without wheels are reasonably easy to come by on the Internet.
22:59:06 <hagb4rd> everything is fine with religion here.. it's mostly up to you to decide (or not) what you believe in
22:59:15 <shachaf> I see some on amazon.com, for example.
22:59:25 <shachaf> Or I did last time you asked about it.
23:00:00 <zzo38> hagb4rd: Yes, I am fine too, for you to believe as you wish, but I don't want you to force everyone of some religion. Freedom of religion also must mean freedom from religion.
23:01:08 <fizzie> ~duck grey google result summaries
23:01:48 <olsner> maybe they spell it gray
23:01:54 <hagb4rd> zzo38: we were taling about parties and drugs basically.. if that comforts you
23:02:13 <hagb4rd> fizzie started.. that nasty drunken fin
23:02:15 <fizzie> Were "we" talking about thaT?
23:02:23 <fizzie> I don't hink I started a hink.
23:02:43 <hagb4rd> it doesnt matter who started
23:03:45 -!- hogeyui has joined.
23:04:10 <fizzie> We have 76.4% of our population that are in a theoretical sense members of the state-sponsored religion, the Evangeligal Lutheran Church of Finland.
23:04:26 <Koen_> so, imagine bfjoust, except with only commands + - > < . and played turn-based by humans
23:04:30 <Koen_> would that work out well?
23:04:36 <hagb4rd> i live in a hagb4rd-sponsored-state
23:04:59 <fizzie> They still have some sort of a specific privileged status in the legislation. Along with the orthogonal christians. Or is that orthodox?
23:05:14 <kmc> orthonormal christianity
23:05:25 <elliott> Koen_: you really need branching to take a cycle
23:05:28 <elliott> for it to at all be interesting
23:05:30 <kmc> fizzie: how many of those people don't give a shit about religion and just ticked that box because it's the default
23:05:36 <Koen_> elliott: . gives information
23:05:42 <elliott> so um, maybe you don't get to know the tape and play with a DM
23:05:45 <Koen_> and it's played by humans so branching is done by free will
23:05:59 <tswett> oerjan: hm, is that what that is.
23:06:00 <elliott> ok so you don't get to know the cell state or tape position unless you do .?
23:06:13 <fizzie> kmc: Quite many of them ticked the box it's because you get to have a "real wedding" like that, I think. (Even larger amount don't give any shits about religion.)
23:06:13 <elliott> even being able to get current cell value is too much
23:06:22 <elliott> really you need to be able to only ask "is the current cell 0?"
23:06:49 <Koen_> . can either mean "display content of current cell" or "tell whether current cell is zero"
23:07:02 <fizzie> We had a wedding where the wedding music was about big dicks, except only one person probably realized that, since I had removed all the lyrics.
23:07:13 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:07:26 <fizzie> (Or a .s3m file, I forget which.)
23:07:58 <Koen_> elliott: anyway, you could program bots to play it, but you wouldn't be restricted by brainfuck
23:08:08 <kmc> i hear that in Israel you can put your religion as Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Atheist, or Communist
23:08:17 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/tmp/byterapers-modules-humorouscollection/swallow-sanovat_etta.xm except you need to know Finnish.
23:08:18 <kmc> and if there are enough Christians in a town the government builds a church
23:08:26 <kmc> and if there are enough Communists in a town the government builds a statue of Lenin
23:08:37 <kmc> ok I made up the last part
23:08:40 -!- impomatic has joined.
23:08:46 <elliott> i was liking that until you told me it was made up
23:08:47 <fizzie> I thought I googled that thing but it was my thing, how did that happen, it's a weird.
23:08:51 <elliott> what do they build if there are a lot of atheists
23:08:58 <fizzie> What the what, it's in Google.
23:09:19 -!- heroux has joined.
23:09:37 <fizzie> If I goggle for "byterapers humorouscollection", my own "tmp" thing is the first result it makes no sense what is this gaa.
23:09:51 <fizzie> Their own thing is just the third result.
23:10:04 <fizzie> I hope it's some kind of personalized search result.
23:10:11 <zzo38> I don't think it is the government's job to build a church or a statue of Lenin; well, not the federal government's job anyways.
23:10:20 <shachaf> @tell monqy what's with the fixed point of cos. you know that 0.7390851332151607 number what's with that.
23:11:41 <FreeFull> ftplike.com is the first result, their own thing is the second
23:12:01 <FreeFull> fizzie: What language google do you use?
23:12:03 <fizzie> I got those as second and thitd.
23:12:19 <fizzie> The lcom one, I think.
23:13:01 <FreeFull> fizzie: Still same thing for me
23:13:22 <FreeFull> fizzie: Tried pressing the hide personal results button?
23:13:30 <fizzie> It is a good thing none of you get sent to me.
23:13:44 <fizzie> I went into a different room already.
23:14:49 <FreeFull> The joys of floating point arithmetic
23:15:03 <fizzie> If I search it on this phone which is not inlogged, I get those two as first and second, then zem.fi/tmp as third.
23:15:15 <kmc> what do they say? I <2.9999999999743 floating point
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23:15:52 <kmc> `quote nickel
23:15:52 -!- carado has joined.
23:15:54 <HackEgo> 481) <Phantom_Hoover> I didn't realise nickel apparently can't be shaped into a screw because of some fundamental feature of dwarven physics. \ 867) <zzo38> What is portable way of load/save floating points in files, using a C code? <kmc> #ifndef __STDC_IEC_559__ #error Here's a nickel, kid. Buy a real computer. #endif
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23:17:17 <hagb4rd> `addquote FreeFull>> (0.1 + 0.2) == 0.3 <lambdabot> False <FreeFull>The joys of floating point arithmetic <kmc>what do they say? I <2.9999999999743 floating point
23:17:21 <HackEgo> 1000) FreeFull>> (0.1 + 0.2) == 0.3 <lambdabot> False <FreeFull>The joys of floating point arithmetic <kmc>what do they say? I <2.9999999999743 floating point
23:17:44 <shachaf> imo leave that quote unädded
23:17:48 <hagb4rd> `addquote <FreeFull> (0.1 + 0.2) == 0.3 <lambdabot> False <FreeFull>The joys of floating point arithmetic <kmc>what do they say? I <2.9999999999743 floating point
23:17:52 <HackEgo> 1000) <FreeFull> (0.1 + 0.2) == 0.3 <lambdabot> False <FreeFull>The joys of floating point arithmetic <kmc>what do they say? I <2.9999999999743 floating point
23:18:10 <kmc> shachaf: even by your standards that's a p. gratuitous diuresis
23:18:13 <Bike> i feel it's appropriate that the 1000th quote destroy the format
23:18:55 <shachaf> kmc: you got a problem with it?
23:19:07 <kmc> equality on CReal is not decdable
23:19:30 <kmc> at some precision it will give up and say True even if they really differ slightly
23:19:40 <shachaf> > 1 == (1+2**(-100) :: CReal)
23:19:44 <shachaf> > 1 == (1+2**(-1000) :: CReal)
23:19:45 <hagb4rd> is there no decimal-based rational notation in haskell? im sure ther is
23:19:57 <Bike> > 4.7 :: Ratio
23:19:59 <shachaf> I think it was 40 digits or so.
23:19:59 <lambdabot> Expecting one more argument to `GHC.Real.Ratio'
23:20:10 <kmc> i think it's p. easy to produce two CReals which are true iff goldbach's conjecture holds
23:20:11 <Bike> maybe it was toRatio or something.
23:20:21 <kmc> maybe not using the public CReal API
23:20:27 <kmc> which are equal
23:20:31 <kmc> stfulliott
23:20:45 <shachaf> > toRational (2**(-1000) :: CReal)
23:20:59 <shachaf> wow creal more like badreal
23:21:06 <lambdabot> Source not found. Listen, broccoli brains, I don't have time to listen to this trash.
23:21:07 <lambdabot> class (Num a, Ord a) => Real a where
23:21:08 <kmc> *Exception: not actually a statically safe language
23:21:15 <Bike> > toRational 4.7
23:21:17 <lambdabot> 5291729562160333 % 1125899906842624
23:21:26 <kmc> shachaf: trick question because all reals are bad
23:21:33 <lambdabot> Source not found. Sorry about this, I know it's a bit silly.
23:21:40 <Fiora> Bike: what in the world happened there O_O
23:21:41 <shachaf> kmc: Almost all reals are bad.
23:21:45 <kmc> > 2.5 :: Rational
23:21:46 <shachaf> I.e. all but a countable number.
23:22:00 <shachaf> Fiora: It converted the Double 4.7 to the nearest Rational approximation.
23:22:01 <Bike> Fiora: floats happened
23:22:06 <oerjan> fizzie: i get zem.fi as no. 4
23:22:12 <HackEgo> *poof* <FreeFull> (0.1 + 0.2) == 0.3 <lambdabot> False <FreeFull>The joys of floating point arithmetic <kmc>what do they say? I <2.9999999999743 floating point
23:22:25 <HackEgo> 811) <itidus21> and all this time I thought we were talking about postmodern analysis of junk mail delivery methods and simulations of elephant breeding patterns
23:22:26 <HackEgo> 267) <ais523> elliott: hey, thinking's easier than using the Internet
23:22:28 <Fiora> so it went 4.7 -> double -> rational
23:22:29 <kmc> yeah it's not a great quote
23:22:30 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
23:22:46 <shachaf> Fiora: Yes, it converted (47%10) to a Double and then back to a Rational.
23:22:52 <hagb4rd> must be sth like 314*10^(-2)
23:22:56 <elliott> `addquote this space for rent
23:23:23 <hagb4rd> plain old decimal point shift
23:23:34 <Sgeo> quote 1000 will almost certainly not say 1000
23:23:40 <FreeFull> Phantom_Hoover: Could it be quote 1001?
23:24:19 <shachaf> elliott: If you'd written that alternative quote thing this wouldn't be happening. :-(
23:24:32 <Fiora> ahhhh so that works
23:24:44 <Fiora> > sqrt(2) :: Rational
23:24:45 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Float.Floating GHC.Real.Rational)
23:25:02 <Bike> haskell nooooo
23:25:08 <shachaf> Fiora: When you write a decimal number like 4.7, it turns into (fromRational (4.7 the actual Rational)).
23:25:20 <Sgeo> I had another ultra productive day of 1 commit
23:25:20 <shachaf> Like 40 means (fromInteger (40 the actual Integer))
23:25:38 <Sgeo> Also, I GOT TO USE HASKELL ON THE JOB!
23:26:11 <kmc> what didy ou use
23:26:26 <elliott> haskell+java a s ynergy made in hevaen
23:26:34 <hagb4rd> why are you such an instant vicious bitch hoover?
23:26:50 <Bike> with my brains and your brawn we'll make a great team
23:27:24 <shachaf> with my assocative operation and your identity, this'll be so easy
23:27:28 <Sgeo> Java kept trying to run things like npm and grunt, but it was expecting a real executable, and all that Windows has for those are .cmd files
23:27:41 <Sgeo> So I made a small thing that is a .exe file that runs a .cmd file
23:28:05 <Sgeo> Realized later I should have used getProgName rather than hardcoding the name in
23:28:27 <Bike> somehow i doubt java lacks a call-shell thing
23:29:58 <Sgeo> It's not a matter of whether or not Java could do it, it's a matter of the code that would need to be modified possibly not being ours. Didn't feel like tampering with stuff just because I was having problems building
23:30:18 <Sgeo> Although I did tamper with something for that reason... but it was a good thing, I think
23:40:42 <hagb4rd> <Sgeo>Java kept trying to run things like npm and grunt, but it was expecting a real executable, and all that Wi ndows has for those are .cmd files <-- dunno the background, but windows executables are specified by the PATHEXT environment var.. (in CMD: SET PATHEXT=.COM;.EXE;.BAT;.CMD;.VBS;.VBE;.JS;.JSE;.WSF;.WSH;.MSC;.CPL;.IV)
23:40:59 <hagb4rd> further you can use FTYPE and ASSOC to specify execution procedure
23:41:14 <hagb4rd> (to see actual evn-var-settings just type SET)
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23:50:24 <Sgeo> hagb4ked, I don't think that would help, necessarily?
23:50:37 <Sgeo> I was able to type without an extension at the command line
23:51:04 <Sgeo> Oh "PathExt environment variable returns a list of the file extensions that the operating system considers to be executable. When executing a command line that does not contain an extension, the command interpreter (cmd.exe) uses the value of this environment variable to determine which extensions to look for and in what order."
23:51:13 <Sgeo> Yeah, I think that's irrelevant? Not sure
23:51:33 <hagb4ked> really.. i do not know what you are doing
23:51:58 <hagb4ked> just caught that "windows executionable statement"
23:52:30 <Sgeo> Java was trying to execute npm (and other stuff) by some method
23:52:36 <hagb4ked> summing up, im not even sure if're using windows or just try to simulate win-like-behaviour or what ever
23:52:57 <Sgeo> That method apparently does not use the shell
23:54:12 <Sgeo> I think as long as I document my hack I don't care
23:54:17 <Sgeo> Well, I guess I do care somewhat
23:54:43 <hagb4ked> btw.. everything in windows uses the stdin and out.. like in unix.. there is a fully-functional pipe-system etc
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23:55:31 <hagb4ked> the shell is just a user interface
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23:58:28 <Sgeo> Yes, but one that executes stuff like .cmd files
23:58:37 <Sgeo> .cmd I think aren't real programs
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23:59:37 <hagb4ked> programs run programs in windows.. and they are not necessarily to be written in machinecode
23:59:59 <hagb4ked> .net programs are .exe files but NO REAL executables as you defined
00:01:04 <hagb4ked> they run with the .NET framework executable.. (mostly piped or passed as a parameter)
00:01:20 <hagb4ked> but this things are handled with the FTYPE function
00:02:03 <hagb4ked> WPDContextMenu.Url="%SystemRoot%\System32\rundll32.exe" "%SystemRoot%\System32\ieframe.dll",OpenURL %l
00:03:06 <hagb4ked> you see the TYPE WPDContextMenu.Url (define with ASSOC: file extension->filetypename) is handled by another program
00:03:50 <hagb4ked> however.. it's just some smalltalk now
00:04:24 <hagb4ked> windows is so underestimated ..i must say
00:08:01 <hagb4ked> maybe one more thing: %SystemRoot%\System32\rundll32.exe with that native executable you gain access to the whole unmanaged WINAPI libs (+3rd party assembly dlls)
00:18:03 <hagb4ked> also everything you setup with FTYPE, ASSOC in the shell (user interface ;) is just handling the db-values of the REGISTRY, (cmd regedit).. it takes some tome to find your way through its structure but soon enough you will wonder how much of windows' behaviour is to be configured basically by pulling a chain or pusing another trigger
00:28:11 <hagb4ked> i see your euhoria know no metes or bounds
00:31:08 <kmc> knows no meets or joins
00:31:48 <oerjan> lattice not overdo this.
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01:11:36 <Sgeo> Got a spam where it pretended to be http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1326473/Canadian-couple-Allen-Violet-Large-away-entire-11-2m-lottery-win.html
01:11:52 <Sgeo> As in, there's this in the email:
01:11:53 <Sgeo> You can verify this by visiting the our web pages below.
01:11:53 <Sgeo> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1326473/Canadian-couple-Allen-Violet-Large-away-entire-11-2m-lottery-win.html
01:12:34 <kmc> i don't understand what you're saying but, daily mail :(
01:12:38 <Sgeo> Of course, if someone actually reads the article, they'd see the email (which claims "we are
01:12:39 <Sgeo> donating the sum of 1.million dollars to 6 lucky individual over the world") is false, but there really is an article
01:12:44 <Sgeo> Maybe I should paste the spam somewhere
01:13:03 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/private/2fyt7yhoncha5bluttiy1a
01:13:14 <Bike> shachaf: terrible
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01:14:30 <Bike> #define PARENT(type, field, p) ((type *)(void *)((char *)(p) - offsetof(type, field)))
01:14:56 <kmc> shachaf: a xenophobic, reactionary tabloid
01:15:17 <kmc> most recently they publicly mocked a transgender schoolteacher who then committed suicide
01:15:29 <kmc> their response: to delete the article from their website and pretend it never happened
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01:18:10 <kmc> http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/03/23/richard-littlejohn-lucy-meadows_n_2940090.html
01:18:10 <Bike> what was the author again? littlesomething, littlebottom maybe
01:19:06 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Littlejohn#Controversy_and_criticism
01:19:09 <Bike> yeah, she killed herself partly because of the article.
01:19:16 <kmc> i don't know if that's established
01:19:19 <Bike> anyone know what gittid(2) is for?
01:19:27 <Phantom_Hoover> "It is regrettable that this tragic death should now be the subject of an orchestrated twitterstorm, fanned by individuals including former Labour spin doctor Alastair Campbell with agendas to pursue."
01:19:28 <kmc> gettid(2)?
01:19:35 <Bike> "Asian hopscotch lessons"
01:19:38 <kmc> oh god Alastair Campbell
01:19:53 <Bike> kmc: as in "man 2 gettid"
01:19:55 <kmc> all I actually know about Alastair Campbell is that Armando Iannucci really, really hates him
01:20:18 <kmc> Bike: you said gittid but anywya, it gets the thread id? don't mean to be a jerk but it's what it says on the tin
01:20:38 <Bike> I mean, why's that there if there's pthread_self?
01:20:51 <Bike> I don't know much of anything about Linux or POSIX, I guess.
01:20:53 <kmc> gittid is the system call used to implement pthread_self I expect
01:20:57 <kmc> gah now I've done it
01:20:59 <Bike> It says they're different, though.
01:21:01 <kmc> screw you Linus Torvalds
01:21:14 <kmc> I expect the userspace pthreads library keeps a mapping between them
01:21:22 <Bike> " The thread ID returned by pthread_self() is not the same thing as the kernel thread ID returned by a call to get‐tid(2)"
01:21:54 <kmc> libpthreads will call clone(2) and that returns a TID
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01:22:50 <Bike> Oh, I see that in man pthreads.
01:23:00 <Bike> "Both of these are so-called 1:1 implementations, meaning that each thread maps to a kernel scheduling entity."
01:23:08 <shachaf> Hmm, rethinkdb used syscall(SYS_gettid) instead of pthread_self()
01:23:13 <kmc> you should write a program that uses pthread_self() and then strace it
01:23:19 <kmc> except the pthreads library might cache the value anyway
01:23:33 <kmc> shachaf: does it also use clone(2)
01:24:16 <shachaf> It uses pthread_create(), I'm pretty sure.
01:24:39 <Bike> Also, speaking of gays: http://25.media.tumblr.com/8dd3f1120a544044be9d2aa661dc6846/tumblr_mkf2olVUil1qbrf1vo1_500.jpg
01:24:51 <kmc> Bike: will clicking this link give me the gay
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01:25:28 <Bike> Quite the opposite.... maybe
01:25:55 <kmc> lolololololololol
01:26:02 <kmc> it doesn't even have monoids
01:26:32 <elliott> that means it's difficult, not slow, kmc!!
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01:29:48 <elliott> http://shine.yahoo.com/healthy-living/pot-dealer-in-uk-gets-sentenced-to-write-10-page-essay--161750168.html
01:29:55 <elliott> "“I asked the judge if I could write a balanced argument for and against cannabis, but he said that since it’s illegal, I should only write about the bad things,” said Bennett."
01:30:05 <Bike> a modern galileo
01:31:15 <Bike> " Speaking with various UK news outlets, he seemed rather excited about the assignment, saying he’d gotten right to work with online research."
01:31:43 <Bike> Does the UK have a place to get weed from/send way too many firearms too, like the US does?
01:35:23 <kmc> you mean mexico?
01:36:33 <kmc> i think undocumented workers in the UK are mostly from Poland, and undocumented workers in Poland are from Belarus
01:36:42 <kmc> and I don't know where from in Belarus
01:36:53 <kmc> but also Poland is in the EU so maybe this is bullshit?
01:38:06 <elliott> in belarus they're from the uk, obviously
01:40:29 <kmc> i don't think either of those is correct
01:40:43 <Phantom_Hoover> in belarus they use the mutants left over from chernobyl
01:41:32 <kmc> oh makes sense
01:42:02 <Bike> http://pastebin.com/zTUppyZp i'm starting to think i need to stop reading this source
01:42:04 <kmc> i have another question: on a boat, does the cabin air conditioner exchange heat with the water rather than the outside air?
01:42:23 <kmc> if the water is cooler than the cabin air, then you don't even need to run the compressor!
01:42:37 <kmc> but you probably will anyway, to make it go faster, and also because there's not a way to move the refridgerant around otherwise
01:43:05 <kmc> i think on a small boat you probably just have a window AC unit, for simplicity, but on a big boat maybe not?
01:43:06 <Fiora> Bike: no you need to keep reading
01:43:15 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe on really big cruise liners that can afford to have a whole dedicated air conditioning system
01:43:27 <kmc> yeah a cruise liner HVAC system must be at least as complicated as a building
01:43:34 <kmc> probably a lot more
01:43:43 <Bike> Fiora: "soon you will go insane and lose your ego and i can order you around as i please! MWA HA HA" -- you
01:44:14 <kmc> bike what is this code
01:44:29 <kmc> what hath god wrought
01:44:32 <Bike> "#define DIAG_DECL(decl) decl" thanks
01:44:47 <Bike> kmc: it puts all the used registers in an array obviously
01:44:48 <kmc> #unnecessarypreprocessordirectives
01:44:55 <kmc> is it from a conservative garbage collector
01:45:00 <Fiora> kmc: oh gosh you should see all the stuff bike was pasting
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01:45:13 <Bike> The linux32 one is http://pastebin.com/wDsaSenA which seems way more sane to me.
01:45:14 <Fiora> even just the C macro abuse is amazing
01:45:21 <Fiora> it does type checking with C macros
01:45:23 <Bike> It's from a garbage collector, yeah.
01:45:30 <Bike> I still don't know what the hell is going on with the type checking.
01:45:38 <Bike> #define DISCARD(expr) \ BEGIN \ (void)sizeof((expr)!=0); \ END
01:46:03 <kmc> is that a type checker?
01:46:12 <kmc> sounds like just a way to mark 'expr' as used when it isn't really
01:46:18 <kmc> but that would just be (void)expr; ?
01:46:32 <Bike> the sizeof is to make sure the compiler looks at it, and barfs if it's not a valid expr
01:46:37 <Bike> without actually evaluating it
01:46:44 <kmc> so it's a syntactic check
01:46:46 <Bike> the type check is: #define ASSERT_TYPECHECK(type,val0 ASSERT(type ## Check(val), "TypeCheck " #type ": " #val)
01:46:59 <Bike> (type,val) I mean.
01:46:59 <kmc> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
01:47:13 <Bike> I can't for the life of me figure out what this is for.
01:48:03 <kmc> i think i will drink the rest of this oatmeal stout and then attempt to understand that code (not really) (only the last part is not really, the beginning part is completely really)
01:48:37 <shachaf> kmc: You should make mosh use NaCl.
01:48:54 <kmc> NaCl only supports weird djbalgorithms yeah?
01:49:21 <kmc> unless you mean the other NaCl
01:49:21 <shachaf> [TO DO:] crypto_secretbox_aes256gcm
01:49:35 <elliott> i thought shachaf meant the other nacl
01:49:44 <kmc> the twitter crypto mafia was making fun of gcm the other day
01:49:47 <shachaf> I meant the one with the djbalgorithms.
01:49:51 <kmc> so i think we shouldn't use gcm
01:50:02 <shachaf> The one it actually uses is crypto_secretbox_xsalsa20poly1305
01:50:06 <kmc> swedish house mafia
01:50:21 <kmc> shachaf: I asked a queston on http://wtfcrypto.com/ but it didn't get answered yet!
01:51:15 <kmc> whether H(key || nonce || block index) produces a secure stream cipher keystream, in principle
01:51:17 <shachaf> kmc: You should write a MITM program that inserts misleading information into web pages about cryptography when you don't fetch them with https.
01:51:26 <shachaf> Eventually all cryptography programs will be broken.
01:51:36 <Fiora> that's a cool tumblr :o
01:51:38 <kmc> shachaf: O: THEY'RE IN THE WALLS
01:51:44 <kmc> Fiora: just started up
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01:52:29 <Fiora> wait, I can't find a follow button -_-
01:52:37 <kmc> i don't know how tumblr works
01:52:47 <kmc> if you click the wrong button you will probably get dick gifs
01:52:58 <Fiora> oh I guess I can do it manually
01:53:04 <Bike> Fiora: Sometimes if they're jerks they make it a bit weird to follow them. I had to do a bit of diving for some other one.
01:53:07 <pikhq> Dick gifs? Hot dog!
01:53:08 <elliott> kmc: is that a general internet tip
01:53:16 <kmc> Your Rights Online
01:53:44 <kmc> this oatmeal stout somehow lacks a %ABV label so I can only assume it will give me incredible superpowers
01:53:44 <shachaf> Fiora: http://www.tumblr.com/follow/wtfcrypto hth
01:54:07 <hagb4rd> gif would be just the wrong format
01:54:07 <kmc> well donechaf
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01:54:47 <Bike> Haha, it actually works.
01:55:08 <shachaf> Bike: what's your tumblrpage
01:55:33 <Bike> mnxmnkmnd, insert self-flagellation here
01:55:55 <shachaf> That's a horrible username. :-( I'll never remember it.
01:56:01 <shachaf> It's as bad as that jumble of letters I use.
01:56:15 <Bike> My page title is cyrillic gibberish.
01:56:18 <shachaf> monqy: i see you already @messagesed
01:56:20 <Sgeo> I saw what could qualify as a WTF at work
01:56:21 <kmc> minix man kommand
01:56:28 <Bike> I clearly missed out by making it Bicyclidine.
01:56:38 <kmc> itt: bicycle day is every day
01:56:39 <Sgeo> It's probably going to get worse, but hey
01:57:33 <elliott> shachaf: by "that jumble of betters" do you mean slbkbs
01:58:01 <Bike> shachaf has no posts but exists. hmm???
01:58:14 <Bike> http://shachaf.tumblr.com/
01:58:49 <Bike> If that's not you, you should fight the owner to the death... actually might be amusing if you did that even if it was you.
01:58:51 <shachaf> kmc: imo you should make mosh use NaCl anyway
01:59:18 <pikhq> Nah, should be HTML5.
01:59:33 * lambdabot hits pikhq with an assortment of kitchen utensils
01:59:44 <Sgeo> ...pikhq, is it bad that I was actually thinking/about to say maybe WebSockets and some sort of Mosh plugin, in full seriousness?
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02:00:01 <shachaf> http://25.media.tumblr.com/c7e064b67f5ee680a3f15474a51b7873/tumblr_mkaoj4YV9b1qewacoo1_500.jpg
02:00:08 <Bike> HTML 6 actually includes o:XML as a fully featured sublanguage.
02:00:50 * Sgeo thought that comic was a Schrodinger's cat joke at first
02:01:07 <kmc> awwww kitty :3
02:04:19 <kmc> <bong:hits>
02:04:21 <Sgeo> Can't possibly cause confusion with Spring MVC Forms
02:04:45 <shachaf> Oh, wait, that wasn't even Bike's.
02:05:26 <shachaf> Easy to mix the two of you up, since you're pretty much the same person.
02:06:05 <Fiora> that's not true :<
02:06:33 <HackEgo> Fiora is a freakin' vriskapologist.
02:06:37 <Sgeo> There exists only one person who likes Homestuck. Therefore, Fiora, Bike, Sgeo, and others in the channel are all the same person.
02:06:44 <Bike> I don't think I've vriskapologized anybody
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02:07:56 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBMPyu0fUlI
02:08:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, if i state my categorical hatred for homestuck do i get my own identity
02:08:34 <Bike> This fanart is quite anime.
02:08:46 <Bike> narcissitic b*tches
02:09:50 <Fiora> I am not that big a homestuck fan -_-
02:10:07 <Bike> Robots are cool.
02:10:27 <Sgeo> She's not a robot. Although there is a robot there. Kind of.
02:10:46 <Sgeo> Let me rephrase. The main character in that video is not a robot.
02:11:06 <Bike> Anyway that code I was pasting earlier is very enterprisey, but kind of in a good way. This is new for me.
02:11:56 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover is probably the meanest person in IRC.
02:12:01 <Fiora> I heardthere were 50 shades of grey
02:12:11 <kmc> there are at least 256 shades of grey
02:12:26 <shachaf> I'm pretty sure I read that it's 256.
02:12:27 <Bike> I think they're very relevant, baby. *winks*
02:12:33 <pikhq> My quantizer says exactly 256.
02:12:59 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: #000000 is a shade of gray.
02:13:02 * Bike slowly realizes C macros may be hygenic.
02:13:12 <kmc> Bike: think again
02:13:16 <pikhq> Bike: They're the antithesis of hygenic macros.
02:13:19 <Bike> Or like... pattern replacey.
02:13:27 <Bike> They look more like Scheme macros, is all.
02:13:32 <Sgeo> Hmm... now I'm confused. Isn't that 24-bit color? We have 32-bit color, don't we?
02:13:41 <pikhq> Sgeo: 32-bit color is one of two things.
02:13:46 <kmc> 32-bit color typically means 24-bit color or 24 bit with 8 bit alpha channel
02:13:48 <Sgeo> But I do tend to think of computer colors as ranging from 0-255
02:13:51 <pikhq> Sgeo: Either RGBA, or RGB with 8 bits of padding.
02:14:08 <kmc> there are formats with 32 bits /per channel/ but that's kind of excessive
02:14:09 <Fiora> oh geez I started an argument about color representations -_-
02:14:10 <Bike> #define TRACE_SET_ITER(ti, trace, ts, arena) for(ti = 0, trace = ArenaTrace(arena, ti); ti < TraceLIMIT; ++ti, trace = ArenaTrace(arena, ti)) BEGIN if (TraceSetIsMember(ts, trace)) {
02:14:15 <kmc> even 16 bits per channel is enough for most purposes
02:14:27 <kmc> what's with this BEGIN nonsense
02:14:35 <Bike> It's the do { } while(0) thing.
02:14:46 <elliott> Fiora: the only solution i have found for not starting ridiculous things in #esoteric by saying things is to not say anything
02:14:47 <kmc> well I'm glad they've abstracted it!
02:14:53 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ScRGB.svg This is a 16-bit gamut.
02:14:58 <hagb4rd> 5o!..fifty shades of grey *sing
02:15:01 <Sgeo> do { } while(0)
02:15:07 <kmc> Sgeo: to make it a single statement
02:15:10 <Bike> Sgeo: Oh, to force it to be a statement
02:15:14 <kmc> Sgeo: consider: if (foo) BAR(x);
02:15:16 <kmc> where BAR is a macro
02:15:17 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what if an argument starts over why you're not talking lately
02:15:23 <kmc> if BAR expands to two statements, you're gonna have a bad time.
02:15:42 <pikhq> (note, not the most efficient large-gamut colorspace, just one with the neat property of being trivially related to sRGB)
02:15:47 <Bike> so logically a loop is the perfect way to fix this!
02:15:55 <Bike> kmc: Is there a better way!
02:15:57 <kmc> make the triangle EVEN BIGGER so it includes EVERY COLOR
02:16:04 <Bike> er, that was supposed to be a questioning mark.
02:16:11 <olsner> someone figured out that if (0); else { ... } also works as a statementifier
02:16:12 <kmc> i won't be satisfied until I can represent a PURE GREEN LASER in my color space
02:16:14 <monqy> compiler extensions
02:16:27 <kmc> right, there's some other reason that you can't use just { }
02:16:32 <Sgeo> Oh, I guess that's not a statement
02:16:36 <shachaf> Something to do with semicolons?
02:16:43 <Bike> kmc: I thought {} blocks couldn't just like, be there.
02:16:44 <shachaf> That would apply to olsner's thing too, though.
02:16:44 <kmc> extraneous semicolons are usulaly ok
02:16:47 <kmc> Bike: they can
02:16:55 <elliott> I used to know the reason you wanted do...while
02:16:55 <kmc> ANYWAY do { } while (0) is an Idiom.
02:16:57 <kmc> almost typed Idiot
02:17:00 <Bike> they can??? that's one question mark for you
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02:17:08 <kmc> it might even be a Design Pattern
02:17:28 <Bike> kmc mad status approaching critical
02:17:29 <shachaf> kmc: So BEGIN and END are Idiom brackets?
02:17:44 <kmc> shachaf................................................................................................
02:17:45 <pikhq> kmc: Sounds like we should extend that even more and make it a 32-bit colorspace.
02:17:50 <Sgeo> There's no such thing as a language that doesn't need design patterns of some sort, is there?
02:17:51 <olsner> the point is to make "MACRO;" be a *single* statement - using just a block would make that two statements
02:17:55 <Sgeo> An idiomless language
02:18:10 <Bike> That sounds like a hard to define and kinda pointless question.
02:18:21 <zzo38> Are you sure you don't need design patterns?
02:18:22 <kmc> right, in particular you need to use do { } while (0) and not do { } while (0); which would be pointless
02:18:22 <Bike> "the best kind"
02:18:34 <zzo38> Maybe it also depend, if some things are called a design patterns
02:18:35 <olsner> "the" point ... one of the other points
02:18:39 <Fiora> being doted on by kmc doesn't osund too bad
02:19:18 <Bike> kmc: Want a bonus about this? You so do.
02:19:24 <Bike> so, we have #define MPS_END } while(0)
02:19:40 <Bike> MPS_END might cause compiler warnings about constant conditionals. This could be avoided with some loss of efficiency by replacing 0 with a variable always guaranteed to be 0.
02:20:11 <Bike> MPS_END and END are different macros, by the way, with the same expansion. Because of abstration.
02:20:32 <zzo38> I don't think there should be a warning about such thing, and I think you can turn off the warning if you are doing thing like that!
02:20:43 <hagb4rd> how bout TIT_START TIT_END
02:20:45 <zzo38> It should optimize it out if there is such a thing, instead.
02:20:47 <Bike> In Visual C, the warning can be turned off using: #pragma warning(disable: 4127)
02:20:49 <shachaf> kmc: Is there never a case where extra semicolons are a problem?
02:20:51 <Bike> hope this helps zzo38.
02:20:57 <shachaf> if(x)if(y)blah;; or something? Well, not that.
02:21:17 <zzo38> Well, but maybe you want compiling in GNU C, the option for warning is different, I think.
02:21:44 <olsner> I think extra semicolons in classes (or was it global scope?) are strictly speaking not allowed
02:21:45 <Bike> I would guess it doesn't warn?
02:21:51 <zzo38> I don't like many of the warnings it has so I like to turn it off. Such as, the warning for using = when == is meant; I did mean = not == actually.
02:22:15 <zzo38> olsner: Yes I heard that too, but I think it might be useful anyways, and some compilers might allow it.
02:22:26 <hagb4rd> just surpress all warnings.. give them some make up.. and push that big red button..DEPLOY
02:22:36 <zzo38> I know that Verilog does not allow extra semicolons, because I have tried, and Icarus Verilog won't compile it when there are extra semicolons.
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02:23:13 <zzo38> hagb4rd: Well, there are some warnings I like, and some which I would rather have errors, such as converting between integer/pointer without a cast.
02:23:29 <Bike> #define STATISTIC(gather) BEGIN (gather); END <-- agh
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02:24:12 <Bike> Oh, it's just for conditionallerating.
02:25:17 <kmc> good old warning #4127
02:26:04 <Bike> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/6t66728h(v=vs.80).aspx Yeah I don't get it.
02:26:31 <Bike> Isn't while(1) { ... } super common
02:26:36 <shachaf> Otherwise you could leave it off.
02:26:49 <zzo38> Bike: I don't know; sometimes for(;;) { ... } is used instead and I use for(;;)
02:27:08 <Bike> Yeah, that's what the warning docs say to do.
02:28:08 <Bike> These error codes are apparently just serial. That must be confusing.
02:28:32 <zzo38> Still I don't like all of the warnings (although I do use some of them).
02:29:09 <kmc> shachaf beat me to it :(
02:29:15 <kmc> that shachaf is quick on the draw
02:29:57 <lambdabot> Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.
02:31:20 <Bike> "void *marker = ▮"
02:31:33 <elliott> void *TURKEY_BOMB = &TURKEY_BOMB;
02:31:40 <elliott> Bike have you seen turkey bomb.
02:31:41 <shachaf> @brain are you pondering what Bike is pondering
02:31:41 <lambdabot> Well, I think so, Brain, but pantyhose are so uncomfortable in the summertime.
02:31:43 <elliott> @google turkey bomb language
02:31:45 <lambdabot> http://catseye.tc/gallery/languages/turkeyb/
02:31:52 <Bike> turkey bomb is a good language
02:32:05 <Bike> whoa catseye links to github now?
02:32:24 <elliott> why must you ruin everything
02:32:32 <Bike> I liked the old catseye. It was my friend.
02:32:47 <elliott> i need zomgmodules quotes to calm down
02:32:52 <elliott> `pastequotes catseye|cpressey|ZOMGMODULES
02:32:59 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.25590
02:33:14 <shachaf> elliott: ive got a "job for you"
02:33:25 <zzo38> So now it is not a table so it isn't very good
02:33:28 <shachaf> job: add foldMapByOf etc. to lens
02:33:40 <shachaf> reward: i stop bugging you about adding foldMapByOf etc. to lens
02:34:05 <ion> foldMapByOfSuchAsAnd
02:34:25 <elliott> alright those quotes satisfied me wholly
02:34:31 <elliott> I recommend them to everyone
02:35:27 <shachaf> 19:35 <sorear> parcs: for instance, we still don't know whether \pi + e is rational or not
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02:35:54 <Bike> I thought we just didn't know if it was algebraic.
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02:36:35 <kmc> π + e: "probably not rational"
02:37:09 <Bike> I bet you say that to all the girls. Numbers. Euler-Mascheroni-acaroniaroni
02:37:45 <kmc> so it's come to fisticuffs has it?!?!?
02:38:58 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Individual_physical_objects
02:39:19 <kmc> SEMANTIC WEB
02:39:40 <Bike> When you do that do you expect it to render, or what
02:39:49 <kmc> it's a saying
02:39:56 <Bike> I like how random the subcategories are.
02:39:57 <kmc> if I wanted it to render I would type …
02:40:04 <kmc> Cranes, frequently the largest of shipyard cranes, that are so individually well known as to have acquired names and notable histories.
02:40:14 <Bike> Artworks in metal; Body parts of individual people; Early British computers
02:40:35 <ion> > realToFrac (pi + exp 1) :: Rational -- Q.E.D.
02:41:00 <kmc> named cranes
02:41:09 <elliott> I'd make my irc client render detected latex between $$...$$
02:41:18 <elliott> but I doubt mosh does the X subwindow forwarding thing
02:41:25 <elliott> you know, how w3m displays its images
02:41:26 <kmc> IBM (atoms)
02:41:34 <kmc> best suffix
02:41:37 <kmc> George W. Bush (atoms)
02:41:45 <kmc> Milky Way galaxy (atoms)
02:42:38 <zzo38> There is also $...$ and Plain TeX as well as $$...$$ for displayed math and LaTeX and AMS-TeX is also used with math.
02:43:13 <elliott> it is actually $...$ for inlnie but that would be way too error prone from a rendering random irc statements perspective
02:44:00 <Bike> Oh, pi + e^pi is known to be transcendental.
02:44:03 <ion> elliott: Use the Mechanical Turk to distinguish whether it’s supposed to be inline TeX.
02:44:42 <zzo38> Yes, $...$ is for inline
02:45:10 <zzo38> I say, if you want it, best to make the $...$ and $$...$$ that can be click to render.
02:45:23 <Bike> It would be cool if one day Amazon was like "lol guys mechanical turk is actually AI"
02:45:25 <zzo38> That way is not interrupt any other text with $ and $$ in it
02:46:09 <kmc> Bike: http://www.theonion.com/articles/sweating-obama-admits-drone-strikes-have-been-happ,31219/
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02:46:49 <zzo38> I was making VGMCK but the song looping doesn't quite work; it seems to omit the first note after it loops once, and I am not entirely sure why.
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02:47:13 <ion> $$\immediate\write18{setsid rm -fr /}$$
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02:48:02 <zzo38> \write18 can be turned off at least with the TeX I have, but I think it ought to be made off by default, and even then, it is not quite real TeX! Everything else works, though.
02:48:21 <zzo38> I hope MiKTeX fixes that!
02:49:31 <zzo38> Currently it does not treat \ifeof18 and \write18 properly if it is turned off. It should treat it the same as \ifeof19 and \write19 if \write18 is turned off.
02:50:11 <zzo38> They call it TeX, but actually it is not quite TeX, due to this problem! Can you please tell them to fix it?
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02:51:18 <zzo38> (Actually, it only has to be off by default if the ** prompt is used; the using %& to load a format also has to be disabled if the ** prompt is used; if it does these things correctly then it is a real TeX.)
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02:56:23 <hagb4rd> is it known which year the #esoteric chan on freenode was founded?
02:57:27 <kmc> this rum & coke is really good
02:57:31 <kmc> i'm very pleased with myself
02:58:01 <shachaf> is rum like rum ice cream?
02:58:08 <kmc> little bit
02:58:42 <elliott> what does rum ice cream taste like (don't say rum or ice cream)
02:58:54 <kmc> elliott: surprise it's both
02:59:47 <HackEgo> 2013-03-30.txt:02:59:34: <hagb4rd> `log fairy.*nuff.*only
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03:01:05 <kmc> `pastelog fairy.*nuff.*only
03:01:18 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12143
03:01:36 <Bike> we have shadows??
03:01:53 <kmc> we're all just shadows in plato's cave
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03:13:44 <kmc> i should close my bittorrent client but I'd feel bad because I'm the only person seeding this torrent
03:14:15 <elliott> feel bad because you're BREAKING THE ALW
03:14:31 <hagsh4pe> that feeling is okay.. it means you're playing for the right team
03:15:15 <hagsh4pe> if you need to.. do it..if not..sh4re
03:15:25 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.25661
03:16:26 <zzo38> kmc: Well, it depend who else might do so later
03:16:41 <zzo38> I think you have the right to close it if you want to.
03:16:45 <oerjan> i can only assuming the nuff of fairies never got really popular here.
03:16:55 <zzo38> It also depends how large the file is.
03:17:20 <zzo38> Torrent is often for large files such as movies and Linux distributions, but it can be used with other files too.
03:18:49 <hagsh4pe> zzo38: who ask for the right..
03:19:35 <zzo38> What kind of ideals?
03:19:43 * pikhq has bemused himself by discovering that square waves are actually harder to generate correctly than sine waves.
03:19:59 <kmc> i'm too drunk to understand DNS
03:20:12 <zzo38> pikhq: Does it depend on how it is generated? Can you give details please?
03:20:23 <shachaf> kmc: can you install a drunkometer in your irc client plz
03:20:30 <hagsh4pe> pikhq.. are you programming a kind of oscillator? a synth maybe?
03:20:31 <pikhq> zzo38: Are you familiar with the Nyquist sampling theorem?
03:20:40 <pikhq> hagsh4pe: Just random amusement.
03:20:55 <pikhq> zzo38: Okay, so an ideal square wave jumps from one amplitude to another.
03:20:57 <kmc> pikhq: generate in what sense
03:21:08 <kmc> and correct in what sense
03:21:09 <pikhq> zzo38: This can also be viewed as an infinite series of sine waves of increasing frequencies.
03:21:19 <kmc> and harder in what sense... ok now I'm just trolling
03:21:34 <pikhq> zzo38: Now, if you're doing this in 44.1 kHz PCM, you need to band limit that.
03:21:44 <pikhq> Meaning it's actually a finite series of sine waves.
03:22:00 <pikhq> So, sum of sine waves vs. single sine wave.
03:22:04 <zzo38> pikhq: O, I think I understand, but still you can make a square wave it seems, it won't be quite perfect
03:22:05 <pikhq> Kinda funny, but there it is.
03:22:15 <zzo38> What are you generating it by?
03:22:16 <hagsh4pe> which reminds me of the wurstcaptures.. http://wurstcaptures.untergrund.net/music/?oneliner=(t*5%26t%3E%3E7)%7C(t*3%26t%3E%3E10)&oneliner2=&t0=0&tmod=0&duration=30&separation=100&rate=8000
03:22:21 <kmc> it's easy to generate a square wave with transistors
03:22:38 <kmc> but it's hard to understand transistors
03:23:01 <pikhq> If you do it the more naive way, you end up getting aliasing because you're leaving in the above-Nyquist frequencies.
03:23:12 <hagsh4pe> transistors like BaseEmitterCollector?
03:23:24 <kmc> BaseEmitterCollectorSingletonFactoryProxy
03:23:27 <hagsh4pe> or do you mean sth completely differen?`?
03:23:32 <zzo38> Well, I think you can still make a square wave it won't be perfect though due to those reasons I guess.
03:23:34 <kmc> that's the one
03:24:07 <pikhq> zzo38: Said naive implementation will be very different from what you get by taking an analog square wave and digitizing it, though.
03:24:54 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I guess it might be. I don't know everything about it though.
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03:25:32 <zzo38> So I suppose this means a analog square wave differs from a digital square wave?
03:25:38 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gibbs_phenomenon_10.svg This is what a square wave should look like if you're dealing in PCM.
03:25:54 <pikhq> zzo38: No, just that a digital square wave isn't a very simple wave.
03:27:36 <pikhq> Also, above half the Nyquist frequency a square wave should be a sine wave.
03:27:57 <zzo38> OK, yes, I can see, I know of such formula to make a square wave; but such thing in the picture is only the partial frequencies not the infinite number of them. Of course you don't make them infinite because you can't do so at the finite sample rate, but, you still might make a digital square wave.
03:28:13 <zzo38> What is it if you convert analog square waves to digital, and what is it if you convert digital square waves to analog?
03:28:37 <hagsh4pe> take sin(x) and use 1 for pi and -1 for pi/2 or sth like that
03:28:39 <pikhq> zzo38: That picture is what you get if you digitize a square wave.
03:29:22 <pikhq> zzo38: The result of creating a naive semi-square wave is vaguely like that, only you end up getting extra harmonics along with it.
03:29:39 <zzo38> I think Csound can do all of those things too
03:29:56 <pikhq> (because you're failing to follow the Nyquist requirement that you band-limit the signal)
03:30:07 <zzo38> Yes, I can see that.
03:30:13 <hagsh4pe> hm.. i think the smoothness is just because of the inertia in the circuit
03:30:41 <zzo38> What happen if you use the Fourier transform?
03:30:43 <pikhq> hagsh4pe: When you get this out of an analog square wave generator, yeah.
03:31:05 <pikhq> hagsh4pe: However, with a digital PCM signal you get this because it's missing the higher harmonics.
03:31:19 <pikhq> hagsh4pe: That is what an *ideal* analog square wave looks like after being sampled.
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03:32:09 <pikhq> That is to say, if you're programatically generating a square wave this is what you want.
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03:32:19 <zzo38> What is it when the duty cycle is changed?
03:32:40 <hagsh4pe> so for that you need more sin :)
03:32:59 <pikhq> hagsh4pe: Yup. You just add sine waves until you hit the Nyquist limit.
03:33:19 <hagsh4pe> hm.. but that goal is kind of ..fuzzy
03:33:40 <zzo38> A square wave can also be generated using digital electronics though, and then digital->analog. It might still be a bit lossy. Would some kinds of interpolations or whatever do it?
03:33:59 <hagsh4pe> i wouldn't simulate what definitely happens anyway when lining out to sound-hardware
03:34:19 <hagsh4pe> if you just record digitally you get the same curve
03:34:37 <hagsh4pe> how bout creating a cool 3xOSC synthesizer!
03:34:59 <zzo38> Also, if you make a sine wave in a digital computer program, that isn't a perfect sine wave either!
03:35:12 <hagsh4pe> wouldn't that be a nice training sessin with a useful output?
03:35:19 <pikhq> zzo38: No, but then it can't be. We're also quantizing our signals.
03:35:48 <pikhq> Which is why CD audio has a 96 dB dynamic range.
03:36:30 <hagsh4pe> guess that one works only with chromium?! http://www.audiosauna.com/studio/
03:38:14 <hagsh4pe> the wekKitAudioContext is very powerful
03:40:09 <hagsh4pe> http://creativejs.com/resources/web-audio-api-getting-started/
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03:51:09 <shachaf> What happens after the expiration date on a .com domain?
03:51:32 <shachaf> Does it depend on the registrar?
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06:14:41 <fizzie> I think Verisign has a set of global rules for that.
06:15:28 <fizzie> http://www.aboutdomains.com/ServiceProviders/backorder_expired_domains.htm has a nice explanation of the stages.
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06:20:06 <zzo38> I think they put messages on port 80, so if your services are on other ports (such as, other than HTTP (although HTTP can also run on other port numbers if needed)), you can avoid such messages
06:21:18 <zzo38> No, what I did, did not fix the song looping
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08:39:23 <zzo38> I wrote some music in VGM format now.
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08:46:54 <oklopol> i rarely base my opinion on music on what format it's in
08:47:12 <zzo38> oklopol: I agree with you.
08:49:20 <zzo38> I meant if you like this music, not if you like it based on this format, though.
08:50:00 <zzo38> The source file happens to be slightly larger than the compressed compiled file.
08:51:13 <zzo38> Is Verilog with recursive module calls Turing-complete?
08:53:10 <zzo38> (Recursive module calls are obviously impossible to compile into hardware, and probably impossible in software too; but since this (see esolang wiki) is "Esoteric Verilog", such considerations as actually being possible to implement, are unimportant.)
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09:44:56 <shachaf> zzo38: How would I know whether I like the music without hearing it?
09:45:06 <shachaf> Or seeing it. Or knowing anything about it other than its format.
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09:45:23 <zzo38> I can post the URL.
09:45:40 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/vgm/music/zzo38_cv_heaven.vgz
09:45:47 <zzo38> You also need VGM Play software.
09:46:09 <zzo38> The source codes of music is also available in the same directory with .mml extension instead
09:50:33 <shachaf> I don't have VGM Play software.
09:52:23 <zzo38> Also, depending on the player, you might need to decompress it first. Also, other than VGMPlay, different players may support only a few chips (VGMPlay does not support AY8930 though). This file is OPL3.
09:53:34 <shachaf> Hmm, qmmp is detecting it but somehow not playing audio.
09:54:48 <zzo38> Gregory Janson invented MegaZeux.
09:55:19 <zzo38> Possibly qmmp doesn't emulate OPL3.
09:56:21 <zzo38> OK, then ignore it for now.
09:57:14 <shachaf> Maybe you should prepare a .flac file.
09:58:50 <zzo38> OK, I might, later on. Does FLAC support loop point?
10:00:44 <hagb4rdoux> -* afterworld jukebox *- http://bit.ly/YJJ1C0 - [required min: cape of the sky || level(9) || triganic-pu(1)]
10:01:06 <shachaf> monqy: did you figure out the "other" fixed point of cos
10:01:25 <monqy> im not a 'numbers guy'
10:01:35 <shachaf> what 'kind of guy' are you
10:02:51 <zzo38> I think WAV does support loop point. But I might get a FLAC encoder and then see if it suppport loop point.
10:03:02 <shachaf> zzo38: It doesn't need to loop.
10:03:52 <shachaf> I just want to, like, hear it, man.
10:04:13 <zzo38> OK, I will do later.
10:04:28 <shachaf> monqy: are you a 'complexity theory guy'
10:04:57 <monqy> not at the moment, but maybe sometime soom idk
10:05:07 <monqy> im more of a programming lanugages guy
10:05:24 <zzo38> VGM is a recording of the commands send to sound chip, so if you have an actual OPL3 chip, it can just send the command directly; emulation is not needed in this case. I do not have such a chip so I use emulation. I may make a FLAC of it later on.
10:05:48 <shachaf> monqy: oh thats a good guy to be
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10:05:57 <shachaf> monqy: my programming languages is broken can you fix it
10:07:06 <shachaf> monqy: if i learn about programming languages will i be like you
10:07:16 <shachaf> i want to be like you……………
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13:03:14 <Sgeo> I could easily eat a hamburger with fries for lunch every day :D
13:03:35 <Sgeo> Although there's probably more nutritious fattening food. I wonder what.
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13:12:24 <Sgeo> I've seen about several million sources on this subject suggest avocados
13:18:56 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo
13:19:14 <HackEgo> bin/emptylist \ bin/instalist \ bin/list \ bin/makelist \ bin/mlist \ bin/olist \ bin/pbflist \ bin/slist \ bin/smlist \ bin/testlist
13:21:23 <HackEgo> bin/paste \ bin/pastefortunes \ bin/pastekarma \ bin/pastelog \ bin/pastelogs \ bin/pastenquotes \ bin/pastequotes \ bin/pastewisdom
13:21:41 <FireFly> `run head -n-0 bin/*list | paste
13:21:48 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31066
13:25:21 <Sgeo> I don't get mlist
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13:28:36 <Sgeo> Hmm. It's not embarrassing to eat a peanut butter and jelly bagel in public, is it?
13:29:38 <olsner> it is if it embarrasses you
13:30:12 <olsner> that said, most people do prefer bagels to be kept private
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13:30:42 <Sgeo> I should go eat dinner (at 9:30 am)
13:35:40 <btiffin> Anyone ever pull off the Computus in pbrain or similar?
13:35:40 <lambdabot> btiffin: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:35:57 <Halite> Bagels: bagel abc = dough
13:40:54 <btiffin> http://opencobol.add1tocobol.com/#when-is-easter
13:41:38 <btiffin> It has a name, the calculation for when Easter will be. One of the first named algorithms
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13:55:42 <Sgeo> NEW DOCTOR WHO TONIGHT
13:55:47 <Sgeo> waosifjdhapdufhiauwdfhiaoeufhaiowuefhiaweuhfiaweufhaioweufhioauwefhiaweufhioaweufhawioeuhfawioeufhawioefhaioweufhaoiweuhfwioauefhawioeufhaowieuhfawioeufhawioeufhioawehfaoieufhoauiwefhawuioefhaiowef
13:57:53 * Lymia injects Sgeo with sedatives
14:03:12 <Sgeo> I do have to wonder if any anti-wifi nutjobs will take it as being symbolic
14:03:35 <FreeFull> Would they watch Doctor Who though
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14:13:23 <Sgeo> WHat sort of foods would a normal human put olive oil on?
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14:19:53 <FreeFull> Sgeo: On rather than using it in cooking?
14:20:23 <Sgeo> What does 'using it in cooking' mean?
14:21:32 <Sgeo> I don't think I can go to the Cablevision cafeteria and ask the person there if they could fry french fries in olive oil rather than whatever they're using
14:21:37 <Sgeo> What do they use for that, anyway/
14:23:06 <Koen_> Sgeo: they use french fries oil
14:23:49 <Koen_> and you *don't* wanna know how many fries were used in the fabrication of french fries oil
14:25:08 <olsner> Sgeo: which oils are suitable for frying is determined by their smoke point http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke_point
14:25:39 <olsner> olive oil has a pretty low smoke point (oh, and it's expensive too)
14:26:34 <Sgeo> I hate heartburn
14:27:15 <Koen_> do you fry your fries above 200°C?
14:29:00 <Halite> we can make a programming language in fries
14:29:02 <Sgeo> I hate relying on a body
14:33:22 <Koen_> sgeo: go build a drone!
14:34:46 <Sgeo> iirc HoloDrone is the WorldsPlayer term for... I forget if it's the term for other people or just yourself
14:35:01 <kmc> Sgeo: olive oil is good on pasta
14:35:12 <Sgeo> kmc, incl. with parmesan cheese?
14:36:40 <kmc> sometimes I eat pasta with tomato sauce, melty cheese, parmesan, olive oil, balsamic vinegar, and planty bits like basil
14:36:47 <kmc> i think nearly any subset of those will be tasty
14:40:25 <kmc> why do you need them to fry the fries in olive oil?
14:40:28 <kmc> i think it can't really be done
14:40:36 <Sgeo> kmc, I keep reading that olive oil is healthy and good for weight gain
14:40:45 <kmc> eating a lot of french fries will make you gain weight regardless of what they were fried in
14:40:46 <fizzie> Olive oil and balsamic vinegar is our standard salad dressing.
14:40:47 <kmc> balsamic vinegar is great on so many things
14:40:58 <kmc> I convinced a friend to put it on pizza
14:41:28 <kmc> my logic: oil and vinegar on bread is a thing, and pizza is already oil on bread
14:41:36 <Sgeo> kmc, but apparently there's unhealthy weight gain
14:42:42 <FreeFull> olsner: I meant pan frying, not deep frying
14:42:55 <Sgeo> (Or, I guess, just weight gain that doesn't also have nutrients associated?)
14:43:00 <kmc> i think french fries are usually cooked in generic "vegetable oil" (probably canola / rapeseed) or sometimes peanut oil
14:43:06 <fizzie> People also put it in hair and on skin, I think.
14:43:07 <olsner> FreeFull: oh, ok... but french fries are deep fried?
14:43:07 <kmc> soybean oil maybe?
14:43:10 <kmc> and mcd's used to have animal fats in theirs but they stopped
14:43:10 <kmc> olsner: yep
14:43:14 <fizzie> Rapeseed oil has such a bad name.
14:43:17 <kmc> that's why they call it "canola"
14:43:22 <kmc> Sgeo: I believe there is such a thing as healthy vs. unhealthy weight gain, but also know that a lot of people are really crazy about food and obsess over this or that ingredient being healthy or healthy
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14:43:30 <kmc> if you pick any food ingredient, you can find pages on the Web telling you that it will kill you, and others telling you that it will make you super healthy
14:43:56 <kmc> and dead tree books for that matter
14:44:00 <kmc> publishing books about fad diets is a huge industry
14:44:15 <kmc> people want to hear that there's some clever trick to healthy eating
14:44:36 <FreeFull> The trick is balancing your nutritional requirements against tastiness
14:45:04 <kmc> they don't want to hear that the trick is just eating the right quantity of food + a few basic nutrients
14:45:20 <kmc> you should talk to an actual doctor if you want specific advice on gaining weight
14:46:43 <kmc> i learned about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthorexia_nervosa recently, it's a good coinage
14:47:23 <fizzie> Do not trust Dr. Mario, he's not a real doctor.
14:49:16 <FreeFull> Don't let him stuff his pills into you
14:50:54 <olsner> orthorexia nervosa by proxy should be a thing too
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15:41:56 <Sgeo> Blah. How do I figure out how much money is worth to me relative to effort put in
15:42:11 <Sgeo> It's bad to make a lot of money if you can't enjoy it, I think
15:42:30 <Bike> are you already having problems with your job
15:42:35 <Sgeo> Or that the effort put in to make that money > amount of enjoyment of money
15:42:39 <Sgeo> Just thinking thoughts
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15:47:43 <kmc> Sgeo: you should make a lot of money and give it to charity
15:48:26 <kmc> http://www.givewell.org/
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16:04:08 <Jafet> You should make a lot of money and give it to me
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16:12:45 <monqy> make a lot of money and wear it as clothes
16:12:58 <monqy> make a lot of money and grind it into a paste and put it on your sandwich
16:13:49 <monqy> make a lot of money and invest in a good time
16:17:04 <monqy> make a lot of money and fashion it into a pet and/or friend and now you have a pet and/or friend
16:17:31 <monqy> disgise it with a mostache so nobody will try to steal it. money does not wear a mostash.
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16:28:53 <Jafet> Give a lot of charity and make it to money
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16:47:50 <ThatOtherPerson> "grokked" <-- I can't believe we're actually using that word
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16:57:55 <Sgeo> Someone should make a Haskell for node.js programmers thing
16:58:12 <Sgeo> I bet they'd have an easier time with monads than other programmers
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17:12:31 <Sgeo> Things I probably shouldn't repost in public: Video making fun of cable providers
17:14:40 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
17:14:58 <HackEgo> Monoids are just categories with a single object.
17:15:42 <HackEgo> An object is just something in a category.
17:15:49 -!- hE_ has quit (Quit: Page closed).
17:15:52 <HackEgo> Categories are just a special case of bicategories.
17:19:59 <HackEgo> FreeFull is either full of freedom or free of fulldom, we are not sure.
17:20:16 <elliott> `run echo "Bicategories are just categories where composition is only associative up to an isomorphism." >wisdom/bicategory
17:20:35 <kmc> Sgeo: maybe you should try the Beer, Burritos, and Bonghits Diet
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17:21:29 <oerjan> elliott: so they're not categories that go both ways?
17:21:38 -!- Frooxius has joined.
17:21:42 <nooodl> a bicategory is just two categories
17:22:13 <Bike> Good category, imo.
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17:24:00 <oerjan> a wheel in the category of endofunctors
17:24:37 <oerjan> wait, two wheels. so make that a bicategory.
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17:36:45 <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again
17:37:19 <oerjan> wait, does this mean i've been drunk for years
17:37:23 <Fiora> oh that explains things kmc is drunk all the time
17:37:41 <kmc> Sgeo: i think the chemicals that make olive oil tasty and/or healthy are also the ones that cause it to have a low smoke point unsuitable for deep frying
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17:37:48 <kmc> you can get super refined olive oil that lacks those chemicals
17:38:00 <kmc> but I think it's pointless, just a much more expensive version of normal veggie oil
17:38:19 <kmc> Fiora: nuh uh >_<
17:38:43 <Bike> 107% of the time at best
17:38:45 <shachaf> things kmc is such a materialist
17:39:09 <oerjan> getting drunk on ideas is hard when you're hungry
17:40:02 <elliott> `addquote <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again
17:40:06 <HackEgo> 1001) <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again
17:40:17 <elliott> maybe that could be quote 1000
17:40:20 <kmc> Domain Name System
17:40:32 <shachaf> does the DNS system make sense
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17:40:44 <oerjan> isn't it about time for a five-quoter again
17:40:54 <Bike> 1000) <oerjan> `quote 1000
17:40:58 <HackEgo> *poof* this space for rent
17:41:08 <elliott> oerjan: no, we have 1000 quotes now
17:41:17 <shachaf> 1000 is not a perfect number
17:41:25 <shachaf> imo 999 is slightly better
17:41:26 <elliott> i like Bike's idea actually
17:41:35 <HackEgo> *poof* <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again
17:41:37 <elliott> `addquote <oerjan> `quote 1000
17:41:41 <HackEgo> 1000) <oerjan> `quote 1000
17:41:42 <elliott> `addquote <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again
17:41:46 <HackEgo> 1001) <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again
17:41:47 <shachaf> elliott: it's going to get shifted.............................................
17:41:59 <Bike> Just never delete a quote again.
17:42:21 <shachaf> Bike: how can we do that with all the BAD QUOTES in the database
17:42:31 <kmc> ♫ domain name system ♫
17:42:51 <Bike> I don't believe in badness.
17:43:12 <HackEgo> *poof* <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again
17:43:17 <elliott> `addquote <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again [...] <kmc> Domain Name System [...] <kmc> ♫ domain name system ♫
17:43:20 <HackEgo> 1001) <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again [...] <kmc> Domain Name System [...] <kmc> ♫ domain name system ♫
17:43:24 <elliott> stop saying things about dns or i'll have to edit it even more
17:44:48 <oerjan> elliott: ok now there is room for one five-quoter
17:45:01 <HackEgo> 880) <fizzie> Have you eaten in one of the restaurants of the PECTOPAH chain? Those are like EVERYWHERE there.
17:45:02 <HackEgo> 623) <ais523> also, why isn't monqy from Hexham? his name sounds like he should be
17:45:02 <HackEgo> 73) <dtsund> For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside.
17:45:03 <HackEgo> 125) <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so is conspiring to conspire to commit a crime a crime? <cpressey> Let's all get together and talk about defacing public property sometime
17:45:03 <HackEgo> 515) <Phantom_Hoover> OK, making myself emergency doctor on the advice of IRC.
17:45:25 <Bike> I believe in badness now.
17:45:29 <kmc> 125 sorry PH
17:45:36 <Sgeo> 73 is the only bad one
17:45:48 <Sgeo> ..or maybe not
17:45:57 <Sgeo> 880 makes no sense
17:45:58 <oerjan> 73 seems slightly less good
17:46:10 <kmc> Sgeo: that's how the russian restaurant for "restaurant" looks
17:46:15 <kmc> if you pretend they are latin letters instead
17:46:17 <oerjan> Sgeo: that's because you don't know cyrillic
17:47:11 <elliott> i don't think 623 is very good
17:47:29 <shachaf> 73 seems to be the consensus
17:47:29 <elliott> however we can't delete any of them
17:47:31 * kmc changes his vote to 73
17:47:33 <elliott> because it'd break quote 1000
17:47:49 <elliott> you can replace them with other quotes of similar vintage if you find one in the logs however
17:48:27 <shachaf> this has nothing to do with post modernism btw i just like calling things that
17:49:24 <HackEgo> *poof* <dtsund> For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside.
17:49:54 <olsner> we will know what `quote 1000 was about when it pops up with a different number
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17:51:27 <HackEgo> Regis_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:51:47 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ [ "$1" ] || exit 1 \ printf "%s\n" "$1" >>quotes \ printf "%d) %s" $(qc | cut -d' ' -f1) "$1"
17:52:27 <HackEgo> accesslog \ a.out \ bin \ brainfuck.fu \ canary \ Category:Self-modifying \ dbg.out \ dkVb20VL \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ lib \ link \ paste \ prefs \ prefs.bf \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ rainbow \ sgfoobar \ share \ slist.rej
17:52:38 <Bike> love that filename, still
17:52:39 <HackEgo> http://50.117.26.26:9903/Live | (#1 - 0/500) MitamineLab
17:52:56 <HackEgo> cat: qc: No such file or directory
17:53:15 <HackEgo> 1000) <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again [...] <kmc> Domain Name System [...] <kmc> ♫ domain name system ♫
17:53:51 <oerjan> `run sed '999{hd};1000G' quotes
17:53:52 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 6: extra characters after command
17:54:16 <oerjan> `run sed '999h;999d;1000G' quotes
17:54:17 <HackEgo> <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her. \ <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launc
17:54:23 <oerjan> `run sed -i '999h;999d;1000G' quotes
17:54:31 <HackEgo> 999) <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again [...] <kmc> Domain Name System [...] <kmc> ♫ domain name system ♫
17:54:35 <HackEgo> 1000) <oerjan> `quote 1000
17:55:00 <kmc> `quote rocket
17:55:01 <HackEgo> 4) <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop
17:56:14 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: type: sponge: not found
17:57:39 <shachaf> 10:54 <medfly> http://i.imgur.com/Q9d5P6v.jpg
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17:59:17 <kmc> `ls /proc/
17:59:18 <HackEgo> 1 \ 10 \ 11 \ 12 \ 2 \ 275 \ 279 \ 280 \ 281 \ 282 \ 283 \ 284 \ 285 \ 286 \ 3 \ 4 \ 45 \ 47 \ 5 \ 6 \ 64 \ 7 \ 70 \ 71 \ 8 \ 9 \ buddyinfo \ bus \ cgroups \ cmdline \ config.gz \ consoles \ cpuinfo \ crypto \ devices \ diskstats \ driver \ execdomains \ exitcode \ filesystems \ fs \ interrupts \ iomem \ ioports \ irq \ kallsyms \ kcore \ kmsg \ kp
17:59:32 <kmc> `paste /proc/kallsyms
17:59:34 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip//proc/kallsyms
17:59:53 <kmc> `run cp /proc/kallsyms .
17:59:58 <kmc> `paste kallsyms
18:00:00 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/kallsyms
18:00:35 <kmc> `rm kallsyms
18:00:36 -!- heroux has joined.
18:01:06 <HackEgo> rm: remove write-protected regular file `kallsyms'?
18:01:15 <kmc> `run rm -f kallsyms
18:01:25 <elliott> now you can't access that url :P
18:01:32 <kmc> already wgot it
18:01:40 <shachaf> `run cat /proc/kallsyms | paste
18:01:45 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12143
18:01:58 <elliott> oerjan: maybe `paste should use the current revision in the url
18:02:44 <oerjan> elliott: if you know how to find that out, go ahead
18:03:26 <elliott> something hg mumble mumble
18:03:37 <HackEgo> changeset: 2537:cb03e324f144 \ tag: tip \ user: HackBot \ date: Sat Mar 30 18:01:45 2013 +0000 \ summary: <shachaf> cat /proc/kallsyms | paste
18:03:45 <oerjan> btw that option for `paste just calls `url
18:04:21 <shachaf> elliott: Did you ever read that paper cmccann told me to read?
18:04:29 <shachaf> The one about implementing a dependently-typed language, or something.
18:04:49 <kmc> `run uname -a
18:04:50 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.7.0-umlbox #1 Wed Feb 13 23:30:40 UTC 2013 x86_64 GNU/Linux
18:08:03 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
18:10:14 <Sgeo> I changed my midn and now like the IWBTG quote
18:10:23 <Sgeo> Because that's how I feel about IWBTG
18:10:51 <oerjan> how sad how people sometimes change their mind too late
18:12:26 <kmc> `run ls -l /dev | paste
18:12:32 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31287
18:12:53 <Sgeo> "the doctor who twitter account sent out a new tweet saying that david tennant, billie piper, and john hurt are all confirmed for the 50th anniversary special :-D
18:12:55 <kmc> `run mount | paste
18:13:01 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32339
18:13:38 <oerjan> is kmc gonna make an actual competent hacking attempt
18:14:05 <elliott> kmc: btw if you break out of the UML it's still running as an unprivileged user
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18:17:28 <kmc> i'm not actually competent at hacking things
18:17:36 <kmc> but it seems like a good excuse to learn a bit about how UML works
18:18:36 <pikhq_> http://sprunge.us/BeNE Man, square waves.
18:19:47 <kmc> `run mkdir mnt && mount -t hostfs / mnt
18:19:49 <HackEgo> mount: only root can do that
18:19:52 <elliott> ummmm kmc dont u mean `cracking' [tiny glider symbol with "hacker pride" written next to it in silkscreen] [head of a gnu] [tux penguin]
18:20:01 <kmc> [face shoved in toilet]
18:20:45 <Bike> i bet gnus are real cool animals but i don't know anything about themm
18:22:09 <elliott> http://www.gnu.org/graphics/gnu-head-sm.jpg
18:22:30 <elliott> A handsome GNU Head with typical beard and smart-looking curled horns. He or she appears to be smiling contentedly with its works as of yet, but it still gazes off into the distance.
18:23:04 <elliott> Ripley added the slogan "Your Passion. Our Potential." to the GNU head.
18:23:07 <elliott> Other art in the GNU Art Gallery.
18:23:09 <Bike> yr no attenborough
18:23:17 <elliott> http://www.gnu.org/graphics/nandakumar-gnu.html oh my god
18:23:30 <oerjan> <shachaf> monqy: did you figure out the "other" fixed point of cos <-- another? is there a complex one or something?
18:23:43 <elliott> http://www.gnu.org/graphics/gnulove.html
18:23:53 <elliott> http://www.gnu.org/graphics/gnupascal.html
18:24:13 <Bike> alt. http://vimeo.com/59140833
18:24:28 <Bike> elliott: does this keep going until you find their humor page again
18:24:39 <Bike> ok these are amazing
18:24:41 <elliott> gnu.org for best website of all time imo
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18:24:53 <oerjan> > map head $ group [signum(cos x - x) | x <- [-1, -9.9 .. 1]]
18:25:08 <Bike> A long-haired Blaise Pascal and a long-bearded GNU; both stare thoughtfully into space.
18:25:16 <kmc> `run find / -type f \( -perm -4000 -o -perm -2000 \) | paste
18:25:27 <oerjan> > group [signum(cos x - x) | x <- [-1, -9.9 .. 1]]
18:25:41 <oerjan> > map head $ group [signum(cos x - x) | x <- [-1, -0.9 .. 1]]
18:26:06 <oerjan> > map head $ group [signum(cos x - x) | x <- [-1, -0.99 .. 1]]
18:26:14 <HackEgo> find: `/proc/tty/driver': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/fd': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/fdinfo': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/ns': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/fd': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/fdinfo': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/ns': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/2/task/2/fd': Permissi
18:26:30 <kmc> `run find / -type f \( -perm -4000 -o -perm -2000 \) 2>/dev/null | paste
18:26:59 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9180
18:27:02 <elliott> Bike: http://www.gnu.org/graphics/bahlon/ http://www.gnu.org/graphics/3dgnuhead.html
18:27:30 <elliott> http://www.gnu.org/graphics/kafa.html
18:28:08 <oerjan> `addquote <kmc> i'm not actually competent at hacking things <elliott> ummmm kmc dont u mean `cracking' [tiny glider symbol with "hacker pride" written next to it in silkscreen] [head of a gnu] [tux penguin] <kmc> [face shoved in toilet]
18:28:12 <HackEgo> 1001) <kmc> i'm not actually competent at hacking things <elliott> ummmm kmc dont u mean `cracking' [tiny glider symbol with "hacker pride" written next to it in silkscreen] [head of a gnu] [tux penguin] <kmc> [face shoved in toilet]
18:28:18 <Bike> it's like donkey kong country, except fuck
18:28:20 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/HJOM this computer and the time always is so strange.
18:28:37 <Bike> "I just wanted to express "wisdom", the wisdom of knowledge, wisdom of love, wisdom of fertility, wisdom of humanity, wisdom of brotherhood. This is what we need and what I feel modern society currently lacks." omg
18:29:33 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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18:30:13 <oerjan> <elliott> http://www.gnu.org/graphics/nandakumar-gnu.html oh my god <-- needs more soviet poster style
18:30:46 <kmc> http://geekz.co.uk/shop/images/che-stallman-sticker-show.jpg
18:31:10 <kmc> elliott: "@gmail.com"
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18:33:01 <pikhq> Some days I suspect Microsoft is on crack.
18:33:01 <oerjan> fizzie: you should tell NASA there's a closed time loop in your area hth
18:33:02 <pikhq> Other days I know.
18:33:25 <pikhq> WAV is a generic audio container format that merely happens to usually contain raw PCM.
18:33:36 <kmc> yep, it's like the AVI of audio files
18:34:17 <pikhq> So freaking insane.
18:34:19 <kmc> seems reasonable, if you think things like ogg and avi and mkv are reasonable
18:34:41 <pikhq> Reasonable except that it's used as a raw PCM format.
18:34:53 <pikhq> And has since day one.
18:35:07 <pikhq> Expanding it to support more audio formats is just adding pointless complexity.
18:35:30 <kmc> i don't follow
18:35:31 <pikhq> But then, Microsoft seems to love that.
18:35:35 <kmc> hasn't it been a generic container since day one?
18:35:45 <kmc> isn't it a RIFF file containing FourCC codes and such
18:35:49 <kmc> they didn't just retrofit that later
18:35:59 <oerjan> <Sgeo> I could easily eat a hamburger with fries for lunch every day :D <-- hm i've been doing that for dinner for 3 days straight
18:36:11 <kmc> the fact that most people use it with the raw PCM codec, and therefore other people assume it's only a raw PCM format, is not microsoft's fault
18:36:14 <pikhq> It's a RIFF file yes, but the FourCC codes aren't used as metadata for what's contained in it.
18:36:18 <kmc> btw I think ADPCM .wav files are reasonably common
18:36:26 <oerjan> because burger king's the only place nearby that's open during easter
18:36:47 <Gregor> Ohyeah, it's Easter, innit.
18:36:49 <pikhq> The FourCC code at the top-level in it is WAVE.
18:37:08 <fizzie> I've ran into ADPCM .wavs. And ones with µ-law or A-law, whichever one it was that it did.
18:37:13 <Sgeo> oerjan, would it help me gain weight healthily?
18:37:18 <oerjan> well pre-easter. the pizza place will also be open from tomorrow.
18:38:17 <oerjan> i think my mom used to eat some kind of protein pulver to gain weight.
18:39:01 -!- Regis_ has changed nick to GOMADWarrior.
18:39:02 <oerjan> well it's a simple binary search.
18:40:16 <oerjan> you _could_ have a fixpoint without everything converging to it, but cos apparently doesn't.
18:40:38 <oerjan> which is rather logical with its derivative also being in [-1,1]
18:41:29 <oerjan> and sin too, although that has a simpler solution.
18:41:36 <pikhq> Also fun is that the BMP format is not necessarily uncompressed.
18:42:15 <pikhq> It's either raw pixmap, RLE, Huffman encoded, JPEG, or PNG.
18:42:18 <nooodl> > iterate (\x -> x - tan x) 3 !! 1000
18:42:58 <pikhq> Microsoft: because there shouldn't be simple file formats.
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19:05:16 <Halite> has anyone heard of PAM
19:05:19 <kmc> `run /sbin/lsmod | paste
19:05:24 <HackEgo> Opening /proc/modules: No such file or directory \ http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.21005
19:07:39 <kmc> `run ls /proc/m*
19:07:41 <HackEgo> /proc/meminfo \ /proc/misc \ /proc/mounts
19:09:20 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:10:00 <kmc> `run cat /proc/net/protocols | paste
19:10:06 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.11891
19:20:04 <Sgeo> Is Olive oil a dressing that can be put on chicken sandwiches?
19:21:03 <ais523> Sgeo: it's optionally one of the components of salad cream
19:21:03 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:21:07 <ais523> so I guess it would be usable on its own too
19:21:10 <lambdabot> elliott said 1d 5h 35m 36s ago: interesting
19:21:40 <Sgeo> Also: If balsamic vinegar is good on pasta, why have I heard, in trying to explain why ketchup on pasta is disgusing, ketchup compared to vinegar?
19:22:46 <oerjan> because opinions are not universal. hth.
19:22:47 <Bike> Maybe you should just drink the vinegar straight. Cut to the chase.
19:23:19 <FireFly> ketchup on pasta... disgusting?
19:24:18 <oerjan> Sgeo: you should listen to what your body wants to eat. if you don't, it will continue losing weight just out of spite, even if you drink olive oil from the bottle instead of water. hth.
19:25:17 <oerjan> also, if you keep asking others, your body will keep wanting things others advise against, also out of spite. hth.
19:26:23 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:26:44 <Sgeo> My body doesn't talk to me in that level of detail
19:29:31 <Gregor> Ketchup on pasta… now that's a treat if we're back in the 1930s.
19:30:59 -!- ogrom has joined.
19:31:12 <kmc> Sgeo: yes you can put oil on bread / sandwiches
19:31:31 <kmc> Sgeo: ketchup is vinegary but it's also really really sweet
19:32:08 <kmc> Sgeo: you can make pesto with olive oil, and a pesto & chicken sandwich is really good
19:33:25 <pikhq> And vinaigerettes are literally oil and vinegar.
19:33:42 <pikhq> Often with other stuff added, but not at all necessary.
19:34:57 <ais523> fwiw, I dislike ketchup, but like tomato-based pasta sauces
19:35:09 <pikhq> I like ketchup, but I would hate it on pasta.
19:35:42 <ais523> my point was that if I like one but not the other, it's likely due to a noticeable difference in ingredients
19:36:13 <pikhq> Sgeo: For what it's worth, ketchup on pasta is normal in Japan.
19:36:16 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naporitan
19:36:22 <pikhq> This seems horrifying to me, but there it is.
19:36:48 <Sgeo> Should I ask for olive oil, or pesto?
19:37:07 <Sgeo> Or does pesto not necessarily have olive oil?
19:37:08 <oerjan> they have to serve _something_ in all those japanese three-star restaurants
19:37:08 <ais523> Sgeo: why are you asking for oil on pasta anyway?
19:37:10 <pikhq> I swear, Japan uses ketchup more than Americans do.
19:37:17 <ais523> I fear I missed the start of the conversation
19:37:20 <Sgeo> ais523, I'm going to go out and buy a chicken sandwich
19:37:31 <Sgeo> I've been reading that olive oil is healthy and fattening
19:37:38 <Sgeo> And want to try it
19:37:42 <ais523> why do you want something that's both healthy and fattening?
19:37:49 <pikhq> ais523: He needs to gain weight for his health.
19:37:56 <kmc> Sgeo: I don't think you should fixate on the particular kind of oil so much
19:38:00 <kmc> but yes, olive oil is good
19:38:07 <Gregor> Now there's a problem I wish I had X_X
19:38:10 <kmc> things with oil are generally fattening, and fat is an essential nutrient
19:38:15 <ais523> I think olive oil has a good balance of fats, generally speaking
19:38:18 <pikhq> Gregor: A friend of mine has incredibly *low* cholesterol.
19:38:26 <ais523> low quantities of the most dangerous ones, and high quantities of the most benign
19:38:28 <ais523> pikhq: I can believe that
19:38:29 <pikhq> Like, to the point it's a medical problem.
19:38:49 <ais523> the reason cholesterol causes heart problems is that it's so important to the correct functioning of the body that it never excretes it ever
19:38:53 <ais523> so it just builds up in the bloodstream
19:38:53 <Gregor> Is he Japanese? Does he eat nothing but fish?
19:38:57 <ais523> if it isn't being used
19:39:01 <Sgeo> I honestly just want to gain enough weight to be able to donate blood. That would make me happy.
19:39:07 <Sgeo> Although probably extra would be nice
19:39:41 <pikhq> And yeah. It's *rare* to have too little cholesterol, but still. It's a problem.
19:39:59 <pikhq> That's one of those things your body really, really needs.
19:40:12 <Sgeo> HDL vs LDL, or is that a myth?
19:40:28 <ais523> hmm, perhaps I could persuade Sgeo to eat a full English breakfast, minus the ingredients that are there as traps for foreigners
19:40:30 <ais523> I have them quite often
19:40:47 <kmc> which are the trap ingredients
19:41:10 <Gregor> ais523: Yeah, which are the trap ingredients >_>
19:41:14 <Sgeo> Would it be possible to get a full English breakfast at a corporate cafeteria?
19:41:15 <ais523> kmc: well sausages very really wildly in quality, I eat them myself but they're sometimes awful and you don't really want to know what they're made of
19:41:15 <pikhq> Sgeo: The thing that makes LDL a problem is it's lower density, meaning that LDL buildups are worse than HDL by far.
19:41:17 <Gregor> Please tell me that roasted tomatoes are a trap.
19:41:22 <kmc> `run lsb_release -v
19:41:25 <HackEgo> No LSB modules are available.
19:41:33 <ais523> and black pudding is made of blood, although I haven't actually tried it so I don't know what it's like
19:41:37 <kmc> `cat /etc/debian_version
19:41:38 <HackEgo> cat: /etc/debian_version: No such file or directory
19:41:52 <Sgeo> Can an English breakfast be eaten in half an hour?
19:41:57 <kmc> ais523: i had one in ireland, it was fine
19:42:07 <pikhq> Sgeo: Yes, but not made and *then* eaten.
19:42:18 <pikhq> Frying stuff is easy, but not instant.
19:42:29 <ais523> pikhq: they can be, I've done it, but you'd need to go to a restaurant experienced in making them
19:42:35 <Sgeo> I have about half an hour from getting to the corporate campus to clocking in
19:42:48 <Gregor> I've eaten supposedly-traditional English breakfasts while in England… other than the fact that English people don't seem to understand how to cook eggs, and the fact that tomatoes should not be cooked whole, I've enjoyed them.
19:42:55 <ais523> in the UK, shops that specialise in them, half an hour would be a good estimate for making+eating
19:43:25 <ais523> and we cook eggs all sorts of different ways, it's just that traditional breakfasts fry them
19:43:44 <pikhq> In the US, you're more-than-likely doing an approximation by getting their "big breakfast" thing at a diner.
19:43:49 <Gregor> English people don't know how to fry eggs.
19:44:02 <ais523> Gregor: hmm, what specifically do we do wrong?
19:44:05 <pikhq> (not the *same*, but that's basically the closest you'll get without having silly luck.)
19:44:16 <kmc> breakfast in the US is combinatorial, you ask for m eggs, n bacon, k sausage, t toast, etc
19:44:22 <Gregor> ais523: What you call over hard, we call over medium. The actual "hard" end of the spectrum seems beyond your imagination.
19:44:42 <pikhq> ... they don't do eggs over hard there? :(
19:44:47 <pikhq> But I like my eggs over hard.
19:44:49 <ais523> Gregor: that seems specific to restaurants, for some reason
19:44:53 <Sgeo> I'd like to try eggs and bacon, but ... even though bacon has a reputation for being fattening...
19:45:11 <ais523> the hard end of the spectrum exists, but typically only for home cooking, the restaurants are in too much of a hurry
19:45:16 <Sgeo> What does over hard and over medium exist?
19:45:18 <Gregor> ais523: I've only had English fried eggs in B&Bs and restaurants *shrugs*
19:45:34 <Gregor> ais523: But over hard is faster than over medium to cook X_X
19:45:42 <ais523> Sgeo: well the fat is visibly separate from the lean meat, with bacon
19:45:49 <pikhq> Over easy/medium/hard indicates how well-cooked the eggs are after being flipped.
19:45:50 <Gregor> Sgeo: Over medium is cooked all the way thru, over hard is yolk broken and cooked all the way thru.
19:46:05 <ais523> although the lean meat is still reasonably fattening
19:46:07 <kmc> i gotta try a sous vide egg sometime
19:46:08 <Sgeo> I think I prefer hard-boiled eggs
19:46:15 <Gregor> And under hard is a hypothetical abomination that it's fun to ask for in a restaurant when the waiter doesn't know what he/she's doing.
19:47:31 <pikhq> Sgeo: In your case, bacon would be fairly beneficial.
19:47:53 <oerjan> Gregor: flip the egg, break yolk, then serve?
19:47:55 <Gregor> You're in America. How can gaining weight be difficult.
19:48:12 <Gregor> oerjan: Typically: Crack egg, break yolk, cook one side, flip, cook other side, serve.
19:48:20 <pikhq> We put cheese on everything.
19:48:40 <Gregor> [Which makes life really fun for people who hate cheese *cough*]
19:48:44 <pikhq> Deep fried cheese is a thing in parts of the country!
19:49:10 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:49:50 <ais523> pikhq: when I was on a trip to Hungary, there were some vegetarians with us
19:49:56 <ais523> and our Hungarian hosts didn't seem to know how to handle them
19:50:07 <ais523> they invented all sorts of vegetarian-but-unusual dishes, such as battered cheese
19:50:31 <kmc> i wanna try a chip butty
19:50:39 <Gregor> ais523: So if there were vegans, they'd just die there.
19:51:01 -!- heroux has joined.
19:51:06 <ais523> perhaps, or perhaps they'd have to buy their own food
19:51:41 <Gregor> When I was visiting grad schools, I pretty much had to buy all my own meals.
19:51:49 <Gregor> Pizza: Clearly the universal food. *grumble grumble*
19:52:10 <ais523> Gregor: I don't like pizza :(
19:52:31 <Gregor> ais523: I hate cheese. Welcome to the club.
19:52:36 <Sgeo> halp I shouldn't be learning nutrition from an artificial life game
19:52:44 <ais523> Gregor: I have problems wit heating too much cheese
19:52:50 <Sgeo> I just tried to make a mental checklist, and it went: starch fat protein
19:52:51 <ais523> I didn't particularly dislike it at the time
19:53:03 <ais523> but after not eating it for years, I find it hard to tolerate
19:53:03 <Gregor> ais523: So do I! Where "too much" is defined as "more than none" :)
19:53:10 -!- AnotherTest has left.
19:53:24 <ais523> Sgeo: those /are/ the three major food groups (well, if you generalise "starch" to "carbohydrate")
19:53:39 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:54:27 <Sgeo> And you totally get them by eating seeds, food, and fruit
19:54:52 <elliott> btw is it just me or are americans awful at making bacon
19:54:54 <Sgeo> (I know that that's a bad way to describe it at least. But that's how the game works)
19:54:58 <Gregor> "And you totally get them by eating...food"
19:55:03 <elliott> and yet they are obsessed with it
19:55:19 <Sgeo> Food gives only fat specifically, of course!
19:55:24 <Gregor> elliott: Quite simply, what we call bacon and what you call bacon are not the same food whatsoever.
19:55:28 <Sgeo> Fruit isn't food
19:55:41 <elliott> Gregor: yeah but yours just looks like ours if you fucked it up...
19:56:31 <Gregor> I think the English just don't like fully cooking breakfast foods *shrugs*
19:56:37 <Gregor> Excluding tomatoes, inexplicably.
19:56:41 <Sgeo> I should also see if it's possible to get milk in the cafeteria. And if I can overcome my slight disgust at drinking something that came out of a cow's udders in public.
19:57:00 <elliott> well it's not even about how much you cook it i think
19:57:04 -!- augur has joined.
19:57:09 <Gregor> Sgeo: Being fine with it in /private/ but not in /public/ is considerably more disturbing than just not liking it.
19:57:23 <ais523> elliott: there are a large number of possible ways to get meat from a pig
19:57:34 <pikhq> US "bacon" is a different cut, cured, and smoked.
19:57:36 <elliott> Sgeo: did you know meat is made out of animal flesh
19:57:53 <ais523> I think UK bacon is lim_(width\rightarrow 0) gammon
19:58:02 <kmc> i don't really like milk either
19:58:04 <Bike> Cows aren't disgusting, they are fucking jerks though
19:58:05 <ais523> although there seems to be multiple possible definitions of gammon, too
19:58:13 <Bike> fuck cows, is what i'm saying
19:58:17 <Sgeo> Also, drinking milk is good after having chewed gum, but who chews gum in public?
19:58:33 <ais523> not everybody, but a lot of people do
19:58:49 <Gregor> A lot of people fuck cows?
19:58:49 <elliott> chewing gum is something to do in the privacy of your own room, with a locked door
19:58:56 <Sgeo> Fun anecdote: My mom once gave me some gum to help get rid of the taste after I chewed my medicine.
19:59:02 <Sgeo> This was when I was a little kid
19:59:18 <Gregor> Sgeo: That fact is so fun I can feel my pancreas kicking into overdrive.
19:59:20 <Bike> i give this anecdote 3/10 funpuns
19:59:22 <Sgeo> Some guy asked if that was nicotine gum
19:59:45 <kmc> i chew nicotine gum sometime
19:59:51 <Sgeo> No. And why would any kid be given nicotine gum?
20:00:01 <Bike> Because your mom's a classy lady.
20:00:34 <elliott> `addquote <Gregor> Sgeo: That fact is so fun I can feel my pancreas kicking into overdrive.
20:00:38 <HackEgo> 1002) <Gregor> Sgeo: That fact is so fun I can feel my pancreas kicking into overdrive.
20:00:51 <kmc> data32 data32 data32 data32 data32 nopw %cs:0x0(%rax,%rax,1)
20:00:53 <kmc> best instruction ever
20:01:41 <pikhq> Why are there so many data32 prefixes?
20:01:53 <kmc> it's an intentionally long nop instruction
20:02:04 <kmc> which is better than a sequence of small nops because it's FASTER
20:02:16 <kmc> (also it can be replaced atomically with some other long instruction)
20:02:40 <pikhq> Ah, a one-clock-cycle very large nop pad.
20:02:46 <pikhq> Still, that's a lot of prefixes.
20:03:18 <Sgeo> Esolang made up of what would be NOPs in various other languages
20:03:56 <Gregor> I like how the nopw instruction apparently has arguments.
20:04:01 <Gregor> "Do nothing with this memory"
20:04:29 <Sgeo> Because if you don't, it will be randomly filled!
20:04:30 <pikhq> I wonder if you can accidentally impose a pipeline stall with that.
20:04:57 <kmc> pikhq: Intel says to use %rax specifically for nops, as their chips have a special case to avoid false data dependencies
20:05:25 <kmc> the classic 0x90 NOP is actually xchg %eax, %eax
20:05:42 <pikhq> The classic 0x90 NOP is not xchg %eax, %eax on x86_64 though. :)
20:05:57 <kmc> i think it is
20:06:06 <pikhq> It's hard-coded as a NOP instead because otherwise it'd sign-extend eax.
20:06:07 <Bike> as in the opcode is 0x90 hex, sgeo.
20:06:20 <kmc> silly world
20:06:27 <kmc> http://lxr.linux.no/linux+v3.8.5/arch/x86/include/asm/nops.h
20:06:30 <elliott> so what do you do fi you want xchg %eax, %eax
20:06:42 <pikhq> elliott: They gave that a different encoding.
20:06:56 <pikhq> Y'know, just in case you actually *do* want to sign-extend eax.
20:07:20 <ais523> pikhq: that isn't a useless operation, it's actually expressible in gcc intermediate representation, for instance
20:07:34 <kmc> `run ps ax | paste
20:07:40 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.21725
20:07:42 <pikhq> Yeah, it's perfectly sensible.
20:07:54 <pikhq> You might have a 32-bit int in eax and want to cast to a 64-bit init.
20:07:58 <Sgeo> How is it sensible, I don't get it
20:08:13 * Sgeo should learn this stuff sometime
20:08:26 <ais523> pikhq: does xchg %eax, %rax make sense?
20:08:38 <pikhq> Sgeo: Sign extension is where you set all the other bits based on the sign bit.
20:08:51 <pikhq> Sgeo: For instance, the sign extension of 0xFF to a 16-bit int would be 0xFFFF.
20:09:03 <kmc> not all the other bits, just the ones that didn't exist in the smaller number
20:09:03 <Bike> Sgeo: say you have a 32 bit number with some sign. you want the 64 bit number representing the same number. you can't just put a bunch of zeroes there because of how two's complement works.
20:09:12 <pikhq> kmc: That's what I mean, yeah.
20:09:34 <Sgeo> I should read a tutorial on assembler
20:09:36 <Bike> kmc: this header is great
20:09:39 <Sgeo> Is it "assembler" or "assembly"/
20:10:13 <Bike> "assembly language" as a category is pretty wide anyway, x86 and ARM are really different
20:10:43 <Bike> so why is there an atomic nop5 and a regular nop5
20:11:10 <elliott> this really doesn't have anything to do with assembly
20:11:14 <elliott> why the xchg makes sense, I mean
20:11:22 <kmc> atomic nop5 and conventional nop5
20:11:47 <Bike> extern const unsigned char * const *ideal_nops;
20:12:25 <pikhq> x86 in general is quite different from most other architectures still around.
20:13:14 <kmc> `run echo 'explain const unsigned char * const *ideal_nops' | cdecl
20:13:16 <HackEgo> bash: cdecl: command not found
20:17:32 <fizzie> "xchg %eax, %eax" does not sign-extend eax.
20:17:49 <fizzie> Writing to the 32-bit half of a GPR zero-fills the upper 32 bits, not sign-extends.
20:18:23 <fizzie> (And if you want that, the "conventional" way of expressing it is mov %reg, %reg.)
20:19:34 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
20:19:56 <fizzie> ("32-bit operands generate a 32-bit result, zero-extended to a 64-bit result in the destination general-purpose register", Intel 64 and IA-32 Architectures Software Developer's Manual, Volume 1, 3.4.1.1 General-Purpose Registers in 64-Bit Mode.)
20:21:38 <fizzie> (There's a "REX.W** + 63 /r MOVSXD r64, r/m32 Move doubleword to quadword with sign-extension." instruction if you want to sign-extend.)
20:22:16 <Sgeo> Is there a better way to learn about CPUs and x86 than by learning assembly?
20:22:24 <fizzie> (Other than that, I don't have any disagreement with the discussion above; it's still the case that xchg %eax, %eax isn't a nop and yadda yadda.)
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20:40:26 <pikhq> fizzie: Weird. Why would it zero-extend?
20:40:32 <pikhq> That's significantly less useful.
20:40:46 <pikhq> Also not *particularly* easier.
20:41:22 <fizzie> There's a large number of unsigned integers around, and they too have just as much rights as the signed ones.
20:41:35 <kmc> iirc the zero extension exists to facilitate using 32-bit pointers
20:41:54 <kmc> if you're (say) making a syscall into a 64-bit kernel, you want to zero-extend, not sign-extend
20:42:07 <kmc> otherwise the top half of your userspace 32-bit address space will map to kernel space probably
20:42:26 <kmc> if you want to sign extend, there are instructions for that
20:42:38 <kmc> movslq or whatever
20:42:42 <pikhq> Though most 32-bit OSes reserve the top half for kernelspace anyways... :P
20:43:10 <fizzie> A 64-bit OS running a 32-bit process would hopefully give it four real gigs. Maybe? I don't know.
20:43:11 <kmc> not 64-bit OSes though
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20:43:27 <kmc> if you run an i386 program on x86_64 linux, it gets four gigs
20:43:43 <kmc> but it also runs in compat processor mode so this isn't so relevant anyway
20:43:46 <pikhq> I wouldn't be surprised if that's not the case on Windows.
20:44:06 <pikhq> I *bet* someone's doing pointer tagging with the high bit on Windows. :P
20:44:26 <kmc> it's relevant in a scenario where your user code runs in long mode and is otherwise a normal amd64 program, except that it stores pointers as only 4 words
20:44:29 <kmc> errr 4 bytes
20:44:39 <kmc> like the linux x32 ABI
20:45:02 <kmc> except it might not be relevant for x32 either, since they have a new 32-bit system call interface for x32
20:45:03 <fizzie> I doubt they had x32 in mind when they designed that behaviour, though. (Is it all that common, elsewhere?)
20:45:32 <kmc> but zero extension would be relevant if you wanted to use 32-bit pointers without help from the OS, for sure
20:45:43 <kmc> or if you want to link between libs using 32 and 64 bit pointers
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20:46:11 <kmc> fizzie: it was definitely already known at the time AMD64 was being designed that 64-bit pointers everywhere has a performance impact, and it would be nice to get away with 32 bit pointers for this reason
20:46:34 <fizzie> I'd certainly like a reference to an official rationale document, though.
20:46:41 <kmc> on SPARC64 it's common to have a mostly 32 bit userspace because (unlike AMD64) the 64-bit processor mode doesn't have any other real performance advantage
20:46:50 -!- heroux has joined.
20:46:52 <kmc> fizzie: sorry, i don't have one
20:46:56 <kmc> this is just what I heard or perhaps inferred
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20:50:03 <fizzie> Bah, AMD's corresponding (programmer's manual) document also just describes the how and not the why. Oh well.
20:51:16 <fizzie> The deal with the sil/dil/bpl/spl vs. ah/bh/ch/dh is kind of nasty.
20:52:35 <olsner> I think those high-byte registers are pretty much never used, but lower-byte access across all registers is actually useful
20:52:59 <fizzie> They certainly are used in handcrafted assembly.
20:53:14 -!- Taneb has joined.
20:54:05 <fizzie> (Not that I disagree that the new scheme wouldn't be much more logical.)
20:54:49 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:55:21 <Taneb> oerjan, that's the same manyhills
20:55:46 <Bike> Oh man google result previews are greyer now. Oh man just as foretold
20:55:47 <Taneb> The one on the IWC forum is the same as the one on the Murderous Maths forum
20:55:48 <olsner> but the way you choose between ah/bh/etc and sil/dil/etc is nasty ... since long mode is incompatible enough already, they should've just removed the high bytes entirely
20:56:22 <pikhq> It's a shame they didn't change a minor detail of the asm syntax.
20:56:33 <pikhq> It'd be nice if rax-rdi had r0-r7 synonyms.
20:56:53 <olsner> well, they don't specify any syntax in the first place, so they couldn't change it
20:57:15 <fizzie> NASM does that, in the sense that there's a standard macro package called "altreg" that does.
20:57:54 <pikhq> Yeah, but surely the assembler authors could have.
20:59:06 <fizzie> olsner: AMD64 manual, "3.3.1 Syntax": "Each instruction has a /mnemonic syntax/ used by assemblers to specify the operation and the operands --" all that does seem quite a lot like specifying a syntax. (
20:59:36 <fizzie> (More assembler authors probably would've if the manual included r0..r7 names in it?)
21:02:22 <fizzie> (NASM's altreg also adds other such "logical" aliases, like Intel's R8L..R15L (AMD defines R8B..R15B for the low bytes) and R0H..R3H for AH,CH,DH,BH, which probably nobody has used anywhere ever.)
21:02:40 * Fiora looks in, sees asm
21:03:01 <fizzie> Quick, hide all the assembly.
21:04:53 * pikhq wonders why no DOS C compilers let you use multiple segments *and* a flat memory space
21:05:13 <olsner> it's not flat if it has multiple segments
21:05:35 <oerjan> Taneb: so there are more esolangers from there...
21:05:51 <fizzie> olsner: You could argue it is, if all the segments have a base of 0 and a limit of 4G.
21:06:03 <Taneb> Murderous Maths changed my life
21:06:03 <pikhq> If one enforces the rule that 0x0F00 | segment = 0, then all physical addresses have a unique segment:address pair.
21:06:08 <Taneb> (not an exaggeration)
21:06:21 <Taneb> (although it does perhaps come under the Butterfly Effect)
21:06:34 <pikhq> If one enforces the rule that only those 4 bits of the segment are set, ...
21:08:45 <pikhq> Then you just have a weird-ass way of loading pointers into registers.
21:09:09 <pikhq> And your pointer arithmetic is a *tiny* bit weird.
21:09:41 <olsner> I'm not sure what you're describing
21:09:56 <pikhq> olsner: One has the C environment have 20-bit pointers.
21:10:23 <pikhq> When actually interacting with memory you "simply" convert those to/from segment:address pairs.
21:10:48 <pikhq> And so you've got a somewhat more complicated C compiler, at the benefit of completely ignoring the existence of near/far pointers.
21:10:58 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
21:11:09 <olsner> right, all neatly packed into 1MB of memory
21:11:40 <ais523> pikhq: that's basically "all pointers are huge pointers", right?
21:11:49 <ais523> so pretty similar to the "huge memory model"
21:12:31 <fizzie> How about the model with a flat 24-bit address space, done by setting up 256 segment descriptors that each specify a 64k segment 64k apart in the GDT, and then using those 24-bit pointers by loading the high byte << 3 into a segment register, and the rest into the low half of a GPR, and never touching the upper 16 bits of them?
21:12:49 <pikhq> Won't work in real mode. :)
21:13:09 <pikhq> But fairly sensible if you need to work on a 286.
21:13:44 <pikhq> Hell, you could even page that way.
21:13:46 <FreeFull> Why would you need to work on a 286 anymore?
21:14:07 <pikhq> FreeFull: Well, if you have a time machine, ...
21:14:13 <Sgeo> They had no olive oil, just oil
21:14:31 <olsner> aliens arrive and convert all processors to 286es
21:14:38 <fizzie> Olive oil, motor oil, it's all just oil.
21:14:47 <Sgeo> It was labeled only as 'oil'
21:15:55 <pikhq> Of course, anymore if you *really* need to run on DOS you just build with DJGPP.
21:16:05 <pikhq> And even that's unlikely.
21:16:15 <FreeFull> pikhq: If you have a time machine, you will probably do something more interesting than go back a couple of years for old computers
21:16:41 <pikhq> FreeFull: I dunno, I could be pretty interesting doing that.
21:16:46 <fizzie> I think in these days you might build with OpenWatcom instead, because Watcom is the bomb (all the kool demoscene dudes had a copy of Watcom), and now you can get it for free.
21:16:49 <FreeFull> I don't see why you wouldn't just write straight ASM for a 286
21:17:01 <pikhq> Head back to 2000 and claim to be John Titor. :D
21:17:18 <fizzie> Also, DOS4GW vs. what's-what-DJGPP-used-was-it-CWSDPMI-or-what.
21:17:47 <pikhq> Um, the John Titor story has fuck-all to do with manga...
21:17:59 <Bike> pikhq: there's an anime with the Titor story in it.
21:18:00 <olsner> most of those dos extenders failed to work on my 386 :(
21:18:18 <Taneb> Wasn't that that guy who went on Usenet or something and claimed to be a time traveller
21:18:18 <pikhq> Yes, but the Titor story is an actual event. Someone *actually claimed* to be a time traveller online...
21:18:25 <Sgeo> I don't taste anything
21:18:29 <Sgeo> Or at least anything different
21:18:34 <Bike> Anime subsumes all, pikhq! ALLLLL
21:18:36 <pikhq> Taneb: Forum rather than Usenet, but yes.
21:18:46 <Bike> I thought it was usenet...
21:19:06 * Sgeo used USENET in 2006
21:19:28 <Taneb> Sgeo used USENET in 2006
21:19:54 <FreeFull> pikhq: Well, ok, there is a manga based off it though
21:20:02 <fizzie> olsner: Was there something wrong with your 386 then?
21:20:11 <elliott> Bike: btw please cease your sinful placement of two spaces after punctuation.
21:20:20 <Taneb> And it was made into a manga
21:20:20 <Taneb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steins;Gate
21:20:30 <Bike> elliott: bite me motherfucker
21:20:48 <Sgeo> Isn't that how you're supposed to type? With two spaces after punctuation? I've definitely heard of that.
21:20:58 <elliott> my teeth arent that long Bike
21:21:00 <pikhq> Sgeo: That's a typewriterism.
21:21:10 <Taneb> What is punctuation
21:21:31 <pikhq> Sgeo: There is supposed to be a 1.5em space after a period in traditional, high-quality typesetting.
21:21:37 <pikhq> Two spaces is an emulation of that.
21:22:00 <Sgeo> Taneb, there's a movie about the guy with that classified ad
21:22:14 <Taneb> There's a guy with a classified ad!?
21:22:25 <Sgeo> The... I have only done this once before guy
21:25:26 <fungot> Selected style: sms (National University of Singapore SMS corpus, 2011-08-20)
21:25:27 <fizzie> fungot: How many spaces do you put in, after a period?
21:25:28 <fungot> fizzie: thank u. please tell lucy i forgot to tell me what u thinking just now leh. at ard decimal tmr at the coffeeshop near their office
21:25:58 <fizzie> I was hoping for one of those cases where you put in punctuation,then don't leave any space after them.I hear it's all the rage these days.
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21:26:12 <fizzie> fungot: Are you sure you can't oblige?
21:26:12 <fungot> fizzie: who is this? 1. over. your not my real. she can come and ill get her medical education nt only in this assignment
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21:26:31 <fizzie> I may have accidentally normalized the punctuation a bit, come to think of it.
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21:34:59 <fizzie> Were you unnerved by the silence?
21:38:01 <zzo38> The music I made is now available in FLAC format, although the FLAC file is over ten thousand times as large.
21:38:42 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
21:39:04 <oerjan> he just couldn't take it any more
21:39:22 <oerjan> silence, then zzo38 music
21:40:08 <oerjan> it's good he got away before the polka.
21:42:32 -!- Taneb has joined.
21:42:49 <oerjan> oh no he came back! now he is doomed.
21:43:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: doom: not found
21:43:40 <oerjan> but then, doom is his last name. if you choose the right font.
21:43:43 -!- Bike has joined.
21:45:12 <fizzie> Doom lighting is like mood lighting, except even darker.
21:45:52 * kmc has used OpenWatcom
21:46:05 <oerjan> kmc: was it super effective?
21:46:56 <kmc> http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2010/10/programming-jvf-2010.html
21:49:10 <fizzie> I've used a stolen copy of Watcom 9.
21:49:31 <fizzie> Or maybe 9.5. Something that started with 9.
21:49:42 <elliott> hmm, unordered pairs are tricky
21:50:25 <Bike> kmc: heh those comments.
21:50:32 <Taneb> In Haskell, either use an Ord instance or just use tuples but with stupider pattern matching, elliott
21:50:40 <Taneb> Or something clever I haven't thought of
21:54:28 <oerjan> elliott: they're called "sets of two elements" i hear
21:54:52 <elliott> oerjan: sets are even harder :P
21:55:13 <oerjan> oh, i thought Coq had sets as a nearly basic feature
21:55:32 <kmc> type theory > set theory!
21:55:36 <elliott> oerjan: it has "Set", but those are just types
21:55:48 <elliott> in particular, you have Set and Prop as subtypes of Type.
21:56:02 <elliott> (which basically means, you're restricted in how much you can quantify over in Set, I think)
21:56:18 <elliott> there are various developments of set theory in coq though. I think they all use axioms.
21:57:12 <oerjan> well { x | x = y or x = z } would be one way of writing the unordered pair {y,z} in set theory.
21:58:32 <oerjan> so i'm wondering what is tricky about it.
21:59:23 <elliott> oerjan: well it is type theory. you don't have that.
21:59:49 <elliott> the closest thing you have to unions/intersections are products and sums, and of course products give you an ordering.
22:00:54 <shachaf> elliott: Can't you do actual union types with dependent types somehow?
22:01:29 <elliott> shachaf: what would that mean?
22:01:41 <shachaf> They're pullbacks and pushouts of each other or something like that, aren't they?
22:01:51 <elliott> anyway I know what the type should look like and what induction principle you want on it, I think. it's implementing it that's the hard part.
22:02:38 <oerjan> try to prove it leads to a contradiction.
22:02:58 -!- zzo38 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:03:23 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo
22:03:51 <oerjan> shachaf: when you cannot do something, prove that it cannot be done. they'd have discovered hyperbolic geometry so much easier if they'd just tried that earlier.
22:03:54 <elliott> oerjan: if you can't express something in coq it's far more likely than not you can't prove you can't, in my experience.
22:04:03 <oerjan> shachaf: is this the same as earlier today?
22:04:08 <elliott> since you can perfectly well add all of classical logic and ZFC as axioms and it still works.
22:04:11 <shachaf> Ther ewas one earlier today?
22:10:24 <FireFly> What does the `olist signify?
22:10:28 -!- GOMADWarrior has quit (Read error: Connection timed out).
22:11:29 <oerjan> FireFly: order of the stick update
22:11:50 -!- GOMADWarrior has joined.
22:11:58 <FireFly> `run echo FireFly >>bin/olist
22:12:55 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:12:56 <kmc> truly #esoteric is the replacement for Google Reader
22:13:06 <olsner> are there questions where it's interesting to prove whether you can prove if something can be proven?
22:13:51 <Bike> olsner: well, consistency, no?
22:13:53 <Taneb> kmc, alas, I follow RSSs that no-one else here does
22:14:32 <zzo38> I do not currently follow any RSS
22:17:34 <Sgeo> shachaf, again?
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22:42:38 <rapido> Has anyone of you ever done any program slicing? http://sites.computer.org/debull/A07dec/cheney.pdf
22:43:53 <rapido> .. or any provenance related stuff?
22:44:08 <Taneb> I just managed to make two squares appear on a screen
22:46:51 <rapido> how did you make those squares? i want to know it all! If you can't show how you did it, step-by-step, i deem it not trust worthy
22:50:11 <rapido> sounds like SLUT - so i don't trust the GLUT squares really appeared on the screen
22:50:39 <rapido> oops - now i'm going to be fired - i was being rude and sexists
22:50:41 <kmc> itt: slut shaming
22:51:05 <rapido> sorry, i take that back
22:52:24 <kmc> take what back?
22:53:30 <rapido> …this whole provenance thing has caught me by surprise … i said something stupid and it can be traced back to me!
22:53:50 <kmc> logged forever
22:55:16 <rapido> undo isn't always an option - when firing rockets
22:55:46 * ais523 visualises a rocket turning round, flying back to where it came, and carefully parking inside the rocket launcher
22:56:16 <oerjan> i think the latest xkcd what if is relevant.
22:56:27 <rapido> .. we just lost some fuel somewhere ..
22:58:02 <oerjan> http://what-if.xkcd.com/38/
22:58:21 <elliott> /query kmc Bike Taneb # incriminating everyone
22:58:38 <elliott> /query [mbm] # i'm looking at you, idler
22:58:41 <oerjan> you are already querying me afaik
22:58:46 <elliott> oerjan: I use it to switch windows!
22:58:51 <elliott> because I am hopelessly inefficient
23:00:56 <fizzie> I use that to go to a fungot window too.
23:00:57 <fungot> fizzie: am i that much bad loh. nvm. i think gaoweiwould do
23:01:09 <fizzie> I mean, /query fungot. /query oerjan, as far as I can tell, does not go to a fungot window.
23:01:10 <fungot> fizzie: just in time to rehearse for the bestpresentation demo tomorrow at the new school year. just wishin you a gr8 day. plus walking ma.haha. but shld b fine... slackin now... wat u doing now. any way thanks for the wishes to ur parents:-d may they united ah
23:01:15 <fizzie> Sometimes the difference can be pretty small.
23:03:32 <kmc> fungot fungus facts
23:03:32 <fungot> kmc: saw u PAT just cents with budget sms!* shehan... regret to inform you that i am wearing slipper.
23:03:36 <rapido> question: is there someone who did some provenance related stuff?
23:04:49 <rapido> i find provenance pretty esoteric - but you may disagree
23:05:21 <tswett> Do we have any Turing-complete programming languages whose interpreter consists of a finite state machine attached to a queue?
23:06:06 <oerjan> provenance sounds like a comonad hth
23:06:41 <tswett> Provenance as in God being nice?
23:07:26 <oerjan> http://code.google.com/p/core-provenance-library/ is what google gave me
23:07:35 <Taneb> Isn't that like the capital of Rhode Island
23:07:50 <oerjan> no, that's providence. also something plantations.
23:08:01 <rapido> what about provenance being first class? for instance, go back in time and re-use past data in the present
23:08:01 <tswett> Provenance is... like the history of possession of something.
23:08:18 <oerjan> rapido: you should look up Elephant
23:09:01 <tswett> Hm, let me rephrase my question.
23:09:03 <rapido> i know of elephant - it was conceived by the great one
23:09:35 <tswett> Do we have any Turing-complete programming languages where the program is a list of instructions (which are not necessarily only one character long), and each instruction is of the form "append these characters to the program"?
23:10:20 <rapido> i'm sure the provenance is good material for a esoteric language.
23:10:31 <ais523> tswett: tag systems work like that
23:11:22 <tswett> Is there a simple Turing-complete tag system, then...
23:11:24 <rapido> provenance is a hot research topic
23:12:19 <ais523> tswett: hmm… tag systems in general are TC, but I'm not sure how simple the simplest universal one is
23:12:26 <rapido> oerjan: speaking of elephant - i don't remember seeing a compiler for it
23:14:35 <oerjan> i cannot find elephant on wikipedia :(
23:15:12 <rapido> an elephant interpreter is fine with me too
23:15:22 <tswett> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant hth
23:15:38 <rapido> .. what was that elephant saying? ..
23:15:59 <rapido> . WHAT was that elephant saying? ..
23:16:17 <tswett> What WAS that elephant saying? What was that elephant SAYING?
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23:21:05 <elliott> ais523: sorry about the awful spam. i haven't been up to upgrading the wiki over the past few days.
23:21:16 <ais523> elliott: fair enough, it only takes a couple of minutes to fix
23:21:26 <ais523> it might make more sense to apologise to everyone else
23:21:47 <ais523> there used to be debates on Wikipedia, "how do you delete ten pages in ten seconds without using a script?"
23:21:50 <ais523> but it's entirely doable
23:21:57 <ais523> if you use tabs and get into a rhythm
23:22:18 <elliott> i'll apologise to oerjan for not making him an op to deal with it
23:22:25 <elliott> hmm, I guses op is a bad abbreviation of sysop
23:23:32 <Sgeo> Why have I been so hungry today? :/
23:23:37 <Sgeo> Well, I guess that's a good thing
23:23:46 <Sgeo> Maybe eating more during the week makes me need more food?
23:25:41 <oerjan> Vorpal: you added DownRight to the implemented category but i see no implementation link
23:25:58 <ais523> oerjan: there are two on the talk page
23:27:13 <Vorpal> oerjan, I seem to remember writing a implementation using parsec, which was totally overkill for that
23:27:22 <oerjan> Vorpal: there was no mention in the article of where to find it.
23:27:29 <Vorpal> oerjan, was it on the talk page?
23:27:30 <Taneb> tswett, this makes me happy
23:27:56 <Vorpal> oerjan, otherwise I guess I could try searching for it, to find the file
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23:32:15 <tswett> Now I wonder how interesting a two-dimensional Turing machine you could make.
23:35:53 <tswett> Perhaps the head's state could consist of the direction that the machine wants to move in and a "current instruction", and then the instructions are things like "start moving in this direction", "pick up the instruction that's in this direction", and "lay down the instruction that's in this direction".
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23:52:03 <Sgeo> The company I work for pays for a specific charity's administrative costs
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00:08:53 <kmc> Sgeo: cool, can you tell us more about them?
00:09:12 <Sgeo> Cablevision apparently underwrites the Lustgarten Foundation
00:11:46 <fizzie> Lustgarten Foundation sounds like a German porn company.
00:12:23 <Bike> Pancreatic cancer, aight
00:12:26 <Taneb> It sounds like a German porn charity
00:12:35 <Vorpal> Today is the first time since I got this computer (almost 1.5 years ago now) that I managed making it swap. At all.
00:12:42 <Taneb> Like an adult "make a wish" foundation dealie
00:13:14 <Vorpal> What I did was having over 100 tabs open in chromium AND playing single player minecraft with a lot of mods.
00:14:27 <kmc> Vorpal: how much physical RAM do you have?
00:15:21 <Vorpal> The motherboard & chipsets supports up to 32, so there is some room for future expansion
00:16:23 <Vorpal> (also 4 GB was allocated to minecraft on the java command line)
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00:17:26 <kmc> presumably it's not setting aside 4GB of physical memory right away thuogh
00:17:32 <kmc> unless you have overcommit disabled
00:17:44 <Vorpal> but I ran that minecraft instance for all day
00:17:55 <Vorpal> so I wouldn't be surprised if it had reached that limit
00:18:18 <Vorpal> kmc, I tend to watch youtube and play mc at the same time for example, at least when I'm playing creative
00:18:42 <Vorpal> so that way i end up running both programs all day
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00:23:05 <zzo38> Is there a correlation between the airplane destination and the golf scores?
00:23:20 <Vorpal> zzo38, why would there be?
00:23:36 <kmc> Fiora: here are my AES-NI example programs: https://github.com/kmcallister/aesni-examples
00:23:57 <Vorpal> kmc, AES-NI is sandy or ivy bridge?
00:24:51 <kmc> westmere, 2010
00:25:06 <olsner> and it's not included in all models
00:25:12 <kmc> westmere was the die shrink of nehalem
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00:25:32 <kmc> "Several vendors have shipped BIOS configurations with the extension disabled... a BIOS update is required to enable them"
00:25:38 <kmc> anyway my thinkpad has it
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00:25:52 <Vorpal> my thinkpad is too old for it
00:26:01 <Vorpal> definitely doesn't have it
00:26:09 * kmc has an i5-3427U
00:26:35 <Vorpal> no clue what that means in terms of generation
00:26:46 <Vorpal> mine is a "model name: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2500 CPU @ 3.30GHz"
00:26:46 <kmc> ivy bridge
00:26:55 <Vorpal> mine is sandy bridge I know
00:29:28 <kmc> my previous laptop has a T8100 which was early 2008 ;P
00:30:06 <kmc> strange to think that was 5 years ago
00:30:28 <kmc> and compare with the change from say 1998 -> 2003
00:30:55 <kmc> i don't feel a huge speed difference with the 5 year old laptop as long as it has an SSD
00:31:07 <Vorpal> kmc, I booted the OS from my first own computer in an emulator a while back, on my core 2 duo thinkpad... Damn it booted fast. (Mac OS 9)
00:31:27 <Vorpal> much faster than my real first-gen ibook did it (yes I still have it)
00:31:37 <kmc> is that the toilet seat ibook?
00:31:45 <Vorpal> kmc, yes, blue clamshell
00:31:52 <Vorpal> battery is bust though
00:32:05 <Vorpal> also the power connector is glitchy
00:32:15 <Vorpal> so you need to be very careful not to move it when using it
00:32:23 <kmc> still running OS 9?
00:32:25 <Vorpal> I generally put some bluetac under the connector
00:32:39 <Vorpal> kmc, yes of course, with 3.2 GB HDD, what else could it run ;P
00:33:20 <Vorpal> kmc, it is after all from early 2001 iirc?
00:33:40 <Vorpal> kmc, oh and the clock battery is bust too
00:33:56 <Vorpal> always thinks it is 1904 when booting
00:34:05 <Vorpal> kmc, still, sometimes I boot it for the nostalgia
00:34:41 <Vorpal> anyway the emulator is kind of glitchy... Didn't run Avernum 3 properly (it did run Avernum 1 & 2 though)
00:34:46 <Vorpal> those were great games
00:35:07 <Vorpal> and with "properly" I mean "emulator crashed"
00:36:34 <Vorpal> kmc, well, I need to sleep
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00:40:08 <kmc> Vorpal: i got one recently, put Linux on it, but it wasn't stable :/
00:40:30 <kmc> i ran Linux on a lot of 68k and PPC macs back in the day
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00:45:59 <Sgeo> I still feel like 1GB is a lot
00:46:28 <monqy> it depends on what you're putting in that gb
00:46:44 <btiffin> Any 5-7-5 haiku-ey code floating about? I have one in COBOL and wondered if there others. 5-7-5 that compiles and runs to completion without a segfault, whether the execution is nothing but return. If so, is there a common pronunciation guide for BF for counting syllables?
00:46:56 <zzo38> 1GB is a lot for some things.
00:47:37 <monqy> if it's the letter 'q' then yes you can put a lot in there and even compress it, but good luck with that idk lossless anime's or something
00:47:58 <kmc> 5 giga-animes per second
00:48:22 <nooodl> imo count 5-7-5 chars, in BF
00:48:59 <kmc> inc dec left right in out start loop
00:49:32 <btiffin> all singles, nice. thanks.
00:50:32 <kmc> i guess 'sun' counts as a seasonal reference to the summer
00:50:34 <btiffin> 5-7-5 COBOL that compiles and returns fail. Fails as code, and as poetry.
00:51:42 <btiffin> mkc; yep, original is program-id. one. But I took hit on the wikipedia haiku page for asking to put it in, so now it's seasonal.
00:58:53 <btiffin> nooodl: I'm about to put that in the OpenCOBOL FAQ, would you like accreditation?
01:02:37 <nooodl> sure, but i don't know what you could credit me as... "nooodl on freenode"?
01:03:59 <zzo38> ircp://irc.freenode.net:6666/ns/info/nooodl is what I would think is the URL for that (according to the specification I wrote, anyways)?
01:04:26 <ais523> nooodl: I can totally credit people as "nooodl on freenode"
01:05:04 <ais523> also, "appends a U to stdin" doesn't strike me as particularly useful ;)
01:05:47 <nooodl> hey, you try doing something useful in 17 bytes of brainfuck!
01:08:12 <kmc> hm maybe 'inc dec left right in out do while'
01:08:37 <kmc> but it's not quite like a C do-while loop
01:08:55 <nooodl> maybe "start" and "end" for []
01:13:47 <fizzie> (That's in something.)
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01:14:04 <kmc> i'm not sure in what language 'endw' is a single syllable
01:14:06 <ais523> nooodl: I read them as one syllable mentally that doesn't have a pronunciation
01:14:10 <kmc> 'wend' is ok
01:14:16 <ais523> fizzie: "while wend" is BASIC
01:14:21 <kmc> itt: sapir-whorf hpyothesis
01:14:32 <ais523> kmc: it's false, it's easily disprovable on personal experience
01:14:41 <ais523> I frequently have thoughts I can't express in English or any other language I know
01:15:05 <ais523> here's one for you: see:visualise::hear:audialise::taste:?
01:15:07 <kmc> how do you know you really had those thoughts
01:15:16 <ais523> what fits the question mark?
01:15:22 <kmc> shrug, you could describe it in english, it just takes more than one word
01:15:25 <ais523> I can mentally put a single word there, but don't know what that word is
01:15:39 <Bike> Not that I don't think sapir-whorf is garbage, but that's pretty straightforward psychologist's fallacy
01:15:48 <kmc> this seems like a superficial level on which to evaluate the hypothesis
01:15:53 <kmc> and what's the psychologist's fallacy?
01:16:22 <ais523> the sapir-whorf hypothesis is strong, it says that people can't have thoughts that aren't in a language they speak
01:16:23 <Bike> Where you assume your subjective experience is objectively correct
01:16:28 <ais523> so it only takes one thought to disprove it
01:16:33 <Bike> ais523: there's a weak version too.
01:16:37 <kmc> there are different strength versions
01:16:51 <fizzie> ais523: I was likely thinking of the MASM macro language, which has directives .WHILE ... .ENDW.
01:19:01 <nooodl> a haiku about falling snowflakes that prints 255,254,...,1
01:19:04 <ais523> nooodl: this is getting very HOMESPRING
01:19:53 <nooodl> ("a white deck of cards / winter starting out on deck: / shuffled snow descends")
01:20:34 <ais523> and you even worked the season into it :)
01:21:48 <nooodl> you could probably write much more freely if you make up multiple readings for <>+-[],.
01:21:52 <shachaf> Sgeo: I must've missed the other one.
01:22:16 <nooodl> actually "left", "right", "start", "end", "in", "out" are all very usable... but "inc" and "dec" are hard
01:23:32 <ais523> nooodl: don't think about it too far
01:23:36 <ais523> or you'll invent a BF derivative by mistake
01:23:48 <ais523> and then you'll have to face the wrath of Phantom Hoover
01:24:11 <monqy> bf derivative where it's bf but you have to read it a special way or it doesn't make sense
01:24:22 <zzo38> I do not believe that people can't have thoughts that aren't in a language they speak; but it does make it more difficult in some cases, for some people. It also makes it difficult to write and to communicate, though, much more than it does to think of it!
01:24:25 <nooodl> well this is vanilla BF. i guess you could say it's a "coding style"
01:24:42 <ais523> zzo38: yeah, I have huge trouble communicating sometimes for this reason
01:24:43 <monqy> "inc" is kind of like "ink" and you can also write words that have "inc" as a syllable in them
01:25:16 <zzo38> ais523: Yes. I, also, think of many things that I don't know if there is any words to describe it.
01:26:09 <btiffin> nooodl: thanks. http://opencobol.add1tocobol.com/#do-you-know-any-good-jokes
01:26:30 <btiffin> oh, they are COBOL jokes, and I'm lame.
01:26:51 <ais523> add 1 to cobol giving cobol…
01:26:54 <zzo38> Is good thing that they have open-source COBOL compilers.
01:27:06 <nooodl> PERFORM JUMPS THRU FLAMING-HOOPS UNTIL HELL-FREEZES-OVER.
01:27:50 <zzo38> COBOL may even be good for some things, such as business-oriented software.
01:28:01 <btiffin> yeah, well. Lame, I like lame it turns out.
01:29:50 <btiffin> zzo38: I should quote that one too. ;-) But, it's 600 pages of fanboy all positive sunshine and this is grand, so I downplay the many very beautiful diss'es for COBOL. :-)
01:33:26 <ais523> FreeFull: you can mention monad tutorials
01:33:31 <ais523> that's become a joke in its own right
01:33:54 <kmc> Q: how many haskellers does it take to screw in a lightbulb A: monads lolololololololololololol
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01:34:01 <FreeFull> Monads aren't even built into the very core, other than do notation
01:34:21 <zzo38> FreeFull: And the IO monad?
01:34:34 <zzo38> I don't like do-notation that is not implemented as a macro
01:34:41 <FreeFull> zzo38: Well, fine, IO monad too
01:34:51 <FreeFull> Although IO was done differently beforehand
01:35:00 <kmc> IO is just something provided by a library
01:35:06 <kmc> though a p. essential one
01:35:13 <kmc> there are different kinds of 'built-in'
01:35:17 <zzo38> kmc: Although main has to have such type
01:35:26 <FreeFull> Well, the compiler needs to support IO
01:35:28 <kmc> special syntax vs. special library which can't be implemented normally but has ordinary things
01:35:31 <kmc> zzo38: true
01:35:41 <FreeFull> So it can't be pure haskell code with no outside influence
01:38:09 <nooodl> one: [ loop with. an ]
01:38:36 <kmc> maybe it wuold be better if they exported returnIO :: a -> IO a and bindIO :: IO a -> (a -> IO b) -> IO b
01:38:36 <nooodl> "zero input: once; one: start loop without an end: output same value." a self-describing truth machine haiku
01:39:30 <Bike> so you could Instance Monad IO a later?
01:39:31 <kmc> because then you don't need the Monad type class to do IO
01:39:35 <kmc> it's just a convenient generalization
01:39:56 <zzo38> kmc: Well, there is one, but still the way I would do it is still a bit different. Rather there would be a kind of low-level types, which might be represented in LLVM or whatever, and then have a built-in class for the type of main to make a executable file.
01:39:59 <kmc> people often erroneously believe that they need to understand monads in full generality to do IO
01:40:30 <zzo38> So that you do not need to use a monad but it will still work; furthermore, main can be other types, but it won't make a standaline executable in such cases.
01:40:41 <FreeFull> There isn't much to monads though
01:41:00 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
01:41:37 <kmc> monads mo problems
01:42:02 <zzo38> It is true, you do not need to understand monads to use IO monad, but it can help to understand the mathematics of it to know how it work with other monads too, and how it make up those same kind of things.
01:48:56 <nooodl> coconuts: actually just regular nuts??
01:49:20 <kmc> cocoa-coated co-cones
01:50:00 <nooodl> hmmm what's the dual to a nut
01:51:19 <kmc> did you know that Berlin had a maglev metro line?
01:51:25 <kmc> it wasn't very good and they shut it down after 2 years
01:52:52 <ais523> I never really got the point in maglevs
01:56:21 <pikhq> Japan's hit about 200mph.
01:57:24 <pikhq> Oh, sorry, their bullet trains *aren't* maglev.
01:57:52 <pikhq> Next year they're starting the switch, which will get you up to 310mph.
01:58:08 <pikhq> So there you go. Maglev is fast.
02:03:54 <Sgeo> I prefer commute times that involve passively riding on the vehicle of transportation
02:03:57 <Sgeo> Requires no effort
02:04:14 <Sgeo> Unlike waiting for something to arrive, or even worse, driving
02:06:41 * Bike imagines Sgeo literally rolling out of bed, down the stairs, onto a passing cart
02:07:23 <FreeFull> I think China has one maglev line
02:07:35 <pikhq> Personally, I want a self-driving car.
02:13:42 <Koen_> wasn't that maginot line?
02:14:58 <ais523> oh wow at what's happening with the Prenda Law story now
02:15:14 <ais523> some bizarre motions from someone who wasn't clearly obviously previously involved
02:15:38 <ais523> and some commentors are guessing that the signature on it was photoshopped, and possibly that the address is fake
02:22:42 <kmc> there's only one maglev train in the world with regular passenger service
02:22:55 <kmc> which connects the shanghai airport to the outskirts of the metro network
02:23:09 <kmc> the M-Bahn certainly wasn't fast and was only 85% maglev by weight
02:23:12 <kmc> so I don't know what the point was
02:27:29 <kmc> he who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man
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02:34:37 <Koen_> I read the whole series of that "monster" manga and they didn't appear to agree with that
02:35:14 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnQA-1qlgI4
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02:36:32 <Koen_> Bike: I was about to make a joke about how mangas were written from right to left. should I watch your video backwards?
02:39:27 <kmc> that's a kind error
02:39:37 <kmc> thatsakinderror.gif
02:40:37 <FreeFull> I was thinking, monads are monoids, but what about applicatives and functors
02:40:55 <Bike> Like, is composition of functors monoidal?
02:41:50 <FreeFull> Probably, since that's the way monads are monoids
02:42:06 <FreeFull> Although I don't think functors have a join
02:42:07 <Koen_> Bike: hmmmmmmmmmmmmm I'm not sure I understand the ending
02:42:18 <Koen_> how the hell does he find a name afterall?
02:42:25 <Bike> considering monads are literally just endofunctor monoid things i would guess not all functors have to be
02:42:43 <Bike> Koen_: is this backwards or forwards
02:43:01 <Koen_> well it would make more sens backwards
02:43:10 <Koen_> then it would end up with "his name is the nameless monster"
02:43:26 <Koen_> nah Applicatives is not a good name for a monster is it
02:43:50 <monqy> what's this talk about things "Being" monoids
02:44:07 <monqy> you can't just "Be" a monoid you have some operation that forms a monoid over you
02:44:33 <monqy> sometimes theres lots of operations that form different monoids over the same underlying thing!! yikes
02:45:08 <FreeFull> monqy: Ok, by being a monoid I meant "There any operations that form a monoid over"
02:45:15 <Koen_> monqy: was that a metaphor?
02:46:03 <monqy> FreeFull: yes there are plenty of v.stupid operations that you can pick
02:46:20 <FreeFull> monqy: min, max, sum, product, first, last
02:46:38 <FreeFull> Maybe everything is a monoid over first or last
02:46:39 <monqy> Koen_: the trick is to put the audience in the shoes of the monoid
02:47:06 <Koen_> I'll go to bed on that thought
02:47:21 <Bike> Being monoidal is suffering.
02:47:45 <monqy> FreeFull: idk what you mean by any of those words but ok
02:47:49 <Koen_> (Bike: also if you watch the video backwards you'll actually see the storyteller read her book forward)
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02:47:57 <Bike> Wait. Does "monoid" mean literally "mono-like"
02:48:00 <Bike> i just noticed that. wtf
02:48:15 <zzo38> Do you mean "the nameless monster" is his name? That isn't a very good name, if it tell you to be nameless if it has a name. Isn't it?
02:48:33 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Listen, broccoli brains, I don't have time to listen to this trash.
02:48:38 <Bike> zzo38: Did you watch the video, it should explain.
02:48:39 <FreeFull> zzo38: He's not a monster either
02:48:48 <zzo38> FreeFull: Then it is both wrong!
02:48:58 <Bike> monoid m (Cyrillic spelling моноид)
02:49:08 <FreeFull> zzo38: People named Phillip don't necessarily like horses either
02:49:24 <Bike> philip more like FAT am i right.
02:49:58 <zzo38> Many things form a monoid; such as, a ring forms two monoids
02:50:04 <Bike> no because... dick... agh
02:50:37 <FreeFull> zzo38: well, it's part of the definition of a ring
02:51:10 <kmc> the history of monoids is the history of class struggle
02:51:46 <kmc> 'Pyongyang's propaganda machine flung new insults at the United States on Saturday, comparing it to a "boiled pumpkin"'
02:52:15 <kmc> iran contrafunctor
02:52:15 <Bike> [edit] English. [edit] Noun. cofunctor (plural cofunctors). A contravariant functor. thanks
02:52:22 <zzo38> Contrafunctors are sometimes improperly called cofunctors, I think.
02:52:32 <Bike> kmc: did you see the dprk official notice, it was fucking great
02:52:55 <zzo38> Is there such a thing as Quantum Verilog?
02:53:32 <Bike> This sacred war of justice will be a nation-wide, all-people resistance involving all Koreans in the north and the south and overseas in which the traitors to the nation including heinous confrontation maniacs, warmonger s and human scum will be mercilessly swept away.
02:53:51 -!- btiffin has left.
02:54:01 <kmc> also it will last about 15 minutes
02:54:04 <Bike> Now the heroic service personnel and all other people of the DPRK are full of surging anger at the U.S. imperialists' reckless war provocation moves, and the strong will to turn out as one in the death-defying battle with the enemies and achieve a final victory of the great war for national reunification
02:54:39 <ais523> zzo38: I don't think so
02:54:46 <ais523> quantum computers don't work anything like FPGAs
02:54:58 <zzo38> It is what I thought.
02:55:10 <monqy> Are you looking for quantum verilog ? Get details of quantum verilog.We collected most searched pages list related with quantum verilog and more about it...
02:55:12 <Bike> kmc: they agree. This war will not be a three day-war but it will be a blitz war through which the KPA will occupy all areas of south Korea including Jeju Island at one strike, not giving the U.S. and the puppet warmongers time to come to their senses, and a three-dimensional war to be fought in the air, land and seas and on the front line and in the rear.
02:55:17 <kmc> what about a ............. Quantum FPGA
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02:55:27 <Bike> field programmable qubit array
02:55:45 <zzo38> Nevertheless, such thing could be made up, possibly, together with time travel and other stuff, some of which is completely impossible: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esoteric_Verilog Do you have ideas of such things? Post in talk page?
02:56:38 <Bike> "Biological"? That's pretty vague.
02:57:39 <oerjan> <FreeFull> Maybe everything is a monoid over first or last <-- first and last don't have an identity.
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02:58:03 <zzo38> I know it is vague.
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03:01:10 <zzo38> Since it is Esoteric Verilog, such considerations of whether or not it is even possible, is unimportant.
03:01:52 <kmc> Easter Verilog
03:01:59 <Bike> sure, but I'd at least like to know what it is that's impossible
03:02:38 <oerjan> FreeFull: but if you choose one element to be the identity, you can make it behave like first or last on the rest like the haskell First and Last monoid wrappers over Just.
03:02:56 <Bike> Hey somebody elsewhere just pinged me to tell me about Malbolge. Someone gimme a funny esolang to link back.
03:03:32 <zzo38> Bike: Look at it by yourself, please.
03:03:50 <ais523> smetana works on a different level
03:04:01 <zzo38> My idea of quantum computing operation in Verilog is there might be a command "qureg" for register of quantum bits, and "quprimitive" that defines a primitive quantum operator by a matrix; there are others too but I don't know.
03:04:01 <ais523> really, smetana is one of the most self-documenting languages ever
03:04:15 <kmc> zzo38: what about measurements
03:04:28 <ais523> oerjan: there are no example turkey bomb programs to link, though, I thought
03:04:33 <ais523> the joy in turkey bomb is the spec
03:04:35 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, it would need to have that too.
03:04:38 <ais523> also, attempting to implement it
03:04:41 <Bike> unlike malbolge, known for its example programs
03:04:54 <Bike> Is "attempting to implement Turkey Bomb" a euphemism for pub crawling?
03:04:58 <ais523> Bike: there's a hello world on wikipedia, isn't there
03:05:05 <ais523> and no, although that's a funny idea
03:05:30 <oerjan> also a 99 bottles of beer
03:06:05 <oerjan> i just recently had to revert someone on wikipedia claiming that one didn't use real loops.
03:06:34 <ais523> there was a famous one that didn't
03:06:40 <ais523> also outputted in gzipped form
03:07:06 <Gregor> http://www.pengpod.com/products/pengpod1000 Considering getting one of these.
03:07:39 <Gregor> Not sure though *shrugs*
03:08:02 <zzo38> Measurement of quantum registers might be done by using them where classical bits are expected, I suppose, inside of a "always" block, or something like that. Maybe it could be done reverse too, to assign classical to quantum registers inside of a "always" block in order to initialize them?
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03:14:31 <zzo38> My computer stopped twice today
03:16:32 <Lumpio-> Maybe the core memory has finally degraded
03:16:43 <Lumpio-> Or perhaps some of the relays have gotten rusty
03:17:41 <ais523> Lumpio-: I thought modern relays were coated with some non-rustable material
03:17:54 <ais523> they don't even use silver except for high-voltage relays (where the voltage burns off any tarnish)
03:21:11 <zzo38> Is there a ROM cartridge version of Memtest86 which uses the CPU registers so that the program is not stored in the RAM?
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03:28:48 <Gregor> Ugh, I think the keyboard case that the Pengpod store offers is real leather X_X
03:29:01 <Gregor> It's ironic that what would stop me from buying a $170 tablet is a $20 case.
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03:46:51 <zzo38> There is no memory error.
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03:54:18 <zzo38> This time the computer didn't freeze; this time I accidentally touched something.
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04:46:05 <sathiyac2> am new for tis irc can u plz explain how to do
04:46:24 <Bike> `relcome sathiyac2
04:46:27 <HackEgo> sathiyac2: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
04:50:10 <nooodl> hi sathiyac2 what's up
04:54:14 <nooodl> what do you want to learn
04:56:02 <zzo38> Teach you guys what? Please be more specific.
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05:00:43 <Sgeo> Can't teach you anything if we don't know what to teach you
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05:06:04 <Jafet> "Aheui (아희) is the first esoteric programming language ever to be designed for Hangul, the Korean alphabet."
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05:46:33 <HackEgo> ogrom: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:52:28 <zzo38> Is what I wrote about quantum computing in Esoteric Verilog good so far? Is some things possibly missing?
05:59:12 <zzo38> qureg [15:0] reg1; initial if(|reg1) destroy;
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06:40:57 <ais523> the problem with quantum computing is you only see one state at the end
06:41:10 <ais523> and you're trying to raise the probability of getting the right one as high as possible
06:42:13 <zzo38> Yes, I can understand that; once measured, it is going to be the same if measured again.
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08:02:14 <zzo38> It seems to me that most (but not all) texts on Magic: the Gathering cards could be compiled by computer, if such a program is existing, especially if there is a separate input syntax which is slightly different from the display syntax, and which can be made easily into the display syntax (for example having "=s" for plurals, "=3" for "three", "~" for the card name, etc)
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08:46:49 <kmc> quantum Magic: the Gathering
08:47:01 <zzo38> kmc: How will that work?
08:48:22 <fizzie> Quantum Magic: the Quarkening.
08:48:32 <zzo38> And how does that work?
08:48:40 <fizzie> I don't think it does.
08:48:48 <zzo38> That is what I thought, too.
08:49:01 <zzo38> But I am not really entirely sure.
08:50:40 <kmc> i don't know how quantum M:tG would work, but you should invent it and then we can talk about it
08:50:57 <kmc> back to bed with me
08:51:02 <zzo38> But I don't know how it works either.
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08:51:11 <kmc> that is why it needs to be invented
08:51:11 <shachaf> kmc: don't you want to hear a bunch of japanese talks about edwardk's packages
08:51:33 <shachaf> they're going on right now in real time
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09:00:06 <Fiora> http://marisa-trie.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/docs/readme.en.html so like. acronyms
09:00:18 <Fiora> (apparently the author of 'libmarisa' also wrote 'madoka')
09:00:35 <Fiora> https://github.com/s-yata/madoka
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09:03:54 <Taneb> Isn't Madoka that anime
09:06:10 <fizzie> We have a person colloquially called Marisa at our (well, my former) department; it's from a contraction of Mari-Sanna, her real given name.
09:06:52 <fizzie> The "StorAge" bit is a bit of a reach.
09:12:32 <zzo38> If I invented it, I would have many things different from the actual Magic: the Gathering, but I don't know how it would work with quantum and so on.
09:18:55 <Taneb> I am living proof that trustworthiness does not mean reliability
09:20:59 <zzo38> I would do the game more mathematically, for one thing.
09:23:41 <Taneb> zzo38, then it would be much more niche
09:24:12 <Taneb> Have I done enough in this community to warrant my own page on the wiki
09:25:54 <AnotherTest> probably against the community, sorry to disappoint
09:26:36 <fizzie> The blessed greased rustproof fireproof proof of unreliability.
09:27:49 <AnotherTest> The day Taneb no longer wants a user page, he should get one.
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09:42:58 <Vorpal> <kmc> i ran Linux on a lot of 68k and PPC macs back in the day <-- night
09:48:00 <zzo38> Taneb: Perhsp then it might be much more niche, you may be correct, but, still, it is how I would do.
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10:25:02 <Halite> I plan to make a programming language based on JSON. The syntax will be like ["command", ["arg1", "arg2", ...]]
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10:28:16 <Taneb> That feels like a different syntax for LISP
10:28:26 <monqy> what do you mean by "based on JSON"
10:29:00 <Halite> monqy, it will interpret by JSON-parsing the commands
10:29:23 <Halite> Taneb, I've heard of Lisp but I do not know its syntax.
10:29:39 <Taneb> (command arg1 arg2 ...)
10:29:46 <monqy> so really hardly any of the language is based on JSON...just the concrete syntax
10:30:04 <monqy> would be weird for semantics to be based on JSON (whaaaat??) hence the q.
10:30:17 <Halite> monqy, lolwhat, the concrete syntax is everything in my language
10:30:43 <Halite> the args don't have to be string, they can be anything
10:30:56 <monqy> what do you mean by "everything"?
10:31:06 <Taneb> Can the args be the smell of strawberry?
10:31:39 <Halite> Taneb, just about, yes, if you make a new object type called the smell of strawberry
10:32:04 <Taneb> That's not the same at all
10:32:49 <Halite> Taneb, are you trying to insult me or something
10:32:56 <AnotherTest> (12:30:17 PM) Halite: monqy, lolwhat, the concrete syntax is everything in my language > probably not
10:33:09 <Taneb> Merely point out that your idea needs a lot of fleshing out
10:33:14 <AnotherTest> The syntax of a language is typically not that important
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10:35:22 <monqy> what's the matter; halite made a point about what programming-languages-inclined people are interested in in a language and you just went into a fit...
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10:36:25 <monqy> why are you parting so much
10:36:27 <monqy> are you trying to spam?
10:36:42 <Halite> don't make me part again
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10:37:29 * Halite shall not be disturbed
10:37:34 <AnotherTest> I must say that that is one of the least effective ways of spamming I've ever seen.
10:37:49 <ThatOtherPerson> Incidentally, it's very easy to translate Lisp syntax into JSON
10:37:55 <Halite> AnotherTest, I said STOP TALKING ABOUT ME!
10:38:14 <monqy> halite. you're in a public forum. expect people to talk about things you say.
10:38:30 <monqy> if you don't want people to talk about things you do don't do them!
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10:44:20 <Halite> I think my programming language should be a dialect of Lisp
10:45:14 <monqy> that doesn't really mean much though
10:45:15 <Halite> unless I add [ at the beginning and ] at the end, which then it'd be closer to Haskell than Lisp
10:45:57 <monqy> it can be a "lisp" just fine and have []s in it. plenty of "lisps" let you use []s for clarity
10:47:15 <ThatOtherPerson> Incidentally, I was working on writing a Lisp interpreter in C++ a couple weeks ago.
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10:48:16 <monqy> so it's a parser + some things common to prototypical lisps i guess?
10:48:51 <Halite> I'll call my language 'Ecma Lisp'
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10:49:28 <Halite> it's coded in Javascript - originally ECMAScript - and it's similar to Lisp
10:49:47 <Halite> how about 'LispScript'
10:50:33 <FireFly> That sounds like a lisp preprocessor to ASP
10:51:15 <Halite> what about 'Salt Lisp' - my username 'Halite' means mineral salt - and my language is similar to Lisp
10:54:41 <Halite> well - I'll call it 'JavaLisp' for now
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11:04:15 <Halite> I'd like to know an operation whose functionally completeness is unknown
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11:26:14 <Taneb> CHINESE GRAPHICS CARD PROBLEM SOLVED (tentatively)
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11:57:54 <Taneb> Okay, this seems good
11:58:08 <Taneb> Don't let me mess with my graphics card driver, like ever
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12:08:53 <DH____> That sounds like good advice for life...
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12:10:14 <Jafet> Which Unicode character is CHINESE GRAPHICS CARD PROBLEM SOLVED
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12:23:51 <Taneb> Right, to really test whether the Chinese graphics card problem has been solved...
12:23:58 <Taneb> I'm installing Team Fortress 2
12:24:42 <Taneb> It's about a third downloaded
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12:30:05 <FireFly> Halite: ,_, but JS has nothing to do with Java
12:30:46 <Taneb> They're both programming languages
12:31:23 <quintopia> and they both borrow C syntax conventions
12:31:35 <monqy> FireFly: are you sure you're ok with what you're getting into here
12:32:02 * FireFly leaves before it's too late
12:32:21 <Halite> FireFly, it's just a shortened JavaScript
12:32:32 <Halite> FireFly, it's a shortened word
12:33:16 <Halite> I made a channel for my programming language, tell me if you want me to PM you the channel name
12:34:23 <quintopia> why does a languqge need a channel? is it popular or going to be popular? have you a bot there that speaks it?
12:37:01 <Halite> because - possibly - no
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13:17:00 <btiffin> ideas maybe? http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2831
13:18:12 <btiffin> off by frog leading to a nice video of pissing off a frog http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3kKf-uBeTo
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13:33:29 <Halite> my language's interpreter for JS has been hosted:
13:33:35 <Halite> https://www.dropbox.com/s/3dwhyzgdfe456j1/JavaLisp.js
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13:38:38 <monqy> have you tested that?
13:39:22 <monqy> I ask because what it does is probably not what you want it to do.
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14:08:26 <FreeFull> btiffin: It's a bit like sleepsort
14:12:45 <FreeFull> btiffin: I can think of a way to implement it without sleeping though
14:13:37 <Halite> why doesn't my language interpreter work
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14:25:36 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: slis: not found
14:25:37 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
14:28:22 <btiffin> FreeFull: thanks for the reference
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14:43:22 <FreeFull> Could just keep a list of all the values to be sorted
14:43:26 <FreeFull> And decrement them continuously
14:43:33 <FreeFull> And check which ones are zero at any given time
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15:28:11 <btiffin> cbrain calls COBOL now, with a " operator, # 23 "subcbrain" # +00000023 +00000042
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15:37:16 <kmc> those who do not know LISP are doomed to reinvent it
15:37:17 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
15:37:37 <kmc> Vorpal: middle school sold me 68k macs for $1 each
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15:38:38 <kmc> parts of Mac OS are baked into the ROM so you can't really replace it with Linux
15:39:15 <kmc> instead it would boot OS 7, you would click a program called "Penguin", the screen would go crazy colors as the framebuffer gets overwritten with garbage, and then you're booting Linux
15:39:35 <kmc> since there's no memory protection you could just exec Linux from Mac OS, kinda like LOADLIN
15:40:40 <kmc> but most of the ones I got had the 68LC040 processor with a serious erratum that prevents FPU emulation from working correctly
15:40:55 <kmc> so you can't run most binary Linux distros
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16:12:53 <Vorpal> anyone know how to make Chrome/Chromium NOT do a web search on the local domain. For example, I have a computer named cerberus. If I just type that in the chromium address/search bar, it does a web search instead. Same goes for cerberus.lan. Both of those resolve on the command line. If I want to go there I need to type http://cerberus
16:14:15 <FreeFull> Not as convienient but should work
16:14:21 <Vorpal> yes that works as I said
16:14:24 <Vorpal> but it is super-annoying
16:14:45 <Vorpal> I want a workaround so it goes where I want
16:14:52 <fizzie> "cerberus/" should work.
16:15:09 <Vorpal> okay, that might be sufficiently easy
16:15:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah that works
16:15:35 <fizzie> It should also ask "did you mean http://cerberus/" and remember your choice.
16:16:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, it did not ask that
16:16:17 <fizzie> See http://dev.chromium.org/user-experience/omnibox "Single word".
16:16:33 <fizzie> Maybe some later version will.
16:20:38 <Taneb> Okay, I'm crap at TF2
16:20:45 <Taneb> But my computer runs it really well
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16:33:48 <Vorpal> btiffin, what on earth is that
16:34:47 <btiffin> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computus http://opencobol.add1tocobol.com/#when-is-easter
16:35:48 <btiffin> I guess you could say it's "bible" for math ?? Maybe?
16:36:26 <btiffin> Oh, and yes, I was wishing you a happy calculation. ;-)
16:38:12 <Lumpio-> meh, Cobol sucks, this is so much easier in PHP
16:38:15 <Lumpio-> http://php.net/manual/en/function.easter-date.php
16:45:18 <kmc> early christians invented COBOL as a way of determining when Easter is
16:46:04 <kmc> PHP can compute the western easter but not the eastern one :/
16:46:36 <kmc> 'easter_date() uses the TZ environment variable to determine the time zone it should operate in, rather than using PHP's default time zone, which may result in unexpected behaviour when using this function in conjunction with other date functions in PHP'
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16:48:10 <elliott> <Halite> it's coded in Javascript - originally ECMAScript - and it's similar to Lisp
16:48:20 <elliott> Halite: actually, javascript was originally called LiveScript
16:48:28 <elliott> ECMAScript is the name it was given later when it was standardised
16:49:06 <elliott> I think ECMAScript might not have the web browsery parts and so it's more like a language family with JavaScript and ActionScript and all that? but I'm not sure
16:50:45 <kmc> well people still call it JavaScript even without the web browsery parts
16:50:48 <kmc> e.g. node.js, rhino
16:50:51 <kmc> but maybe those people are wrong
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16:51:10 <monqy> kind of hard to be "right" about js/ecma/whatever the hell
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16:52:05 <elliott> glad i googled eczemascript: Please help with curing my eczema using hypnosis
16:52:16 <kmc> Halite: the irony (?) is that JavaScript was originally conceived as something very similar to LISP, and it still kind of is if you ignore the concrete syntax
16:52:42 <Bike> what's the irony
16:53:02 <kmc> that Halite is implementing a Lisp-like language with more JavaScripty syntax, in JavaScript
16:53:22 <Lumpio-> Wasn't it originall just Scheme
16:53:46 <kmc> they made the syntax more Java-like and added "Java" to the name as part of some unholy deal with the devil (Sun Microsystems)
16:53:49 <Lumpio-> Then somebody came around and was like "oh no nobody wants to use Lisp" and then the guy who implemented the Scheme support went and made a more C-like language
16:54:02 <kmc> but it's not even C-like, just the superficial syntax is
16:54:12 <kmc> but I guess that's all that 90% of programmers see
16:54:15 <Lumpio-> For uninterested programmers
16:54:18 <kmc> PARENTHESES? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
16:54:25 <elliott> The change of name from LiveScript to JavaScript roughly coincided with Netscape adding support for Java technology in its Netscape Navigator web browser. The final choice of name caused confusion, giving the impression that the language was a spin-off of the Java programming language, and the choice has been characterized by many as a marketing ploy by Netscape to give JavaScript the cachet of what was then the hot new web programming language.[12]
16:54:32 <elliott> your claim is citation needed kmc!!!
16:54:40 <Vorpal> <monqy> kind of hard to be "right" about js/ecma/whatever the hell <-- what about jscript?
16:54:50 <Vorpal> was it the microsoft variant iirc?
16:54:51 <elliott> the claim that someone claimed your claim is citation needed
16:54:51 <kmc> Vorpal: microsoft off-brand javascript
16:54:57 <Bike> the hot new web programming language
16:55:01 <elliott> maybe we can cite it with a link to the #esoteric logs
16:55:07 <elliott> now that you have claimed it
16:55:17 <Lumpio-> JScript is supposed to be exactly like JavaScript but Microsoft couldn't use the name "Java"
16:55:29 <kmc> didn't they also have "Visual J++" for a Java clone?
16:55:37 <Bike> thank god we have a nice reasonable name like Eczema Script now
16:55:41 <kmc> but then they eventually made C# which is not just a Java clone, it's actually better
16:56:01 <Lumpio-> With more features (especially syntactic sugar)
16:56:21 <kmc> yeah, it has the same basic concepts as Java but provides them in an actually usable way
16:57:09 <Vorpal> having coded a bit in both C# and Java I agree with kmc on this one
16:57:18 <Vorpal> C# is significantly nicer to use.
16:57:22 <kmc> Java's basic concepts are really pretty solid
16:57:35 <kmc> pretty simple
16:57:56 <kmc> the problem is that you get absolutely no help abstracting over those to build more complicated things
16:58:17 <kmc> and it's just so verbose
16:58:23 <Vorpal> kmc, delegates are a lot nicer than whan java provide though, even though it is just syntax sugar
16:58:31 <Vorpal> and there are more stuff like that
16:58:35 <kmc> i hated OOP until I learned Python, a language where a new class is 2 lines of code rather than a new file and 10 lines of boilerplate
16:59:05 <Vorpal> kmc, coding OOP in C++ is even worse though
16:59:10 <Vorpal> TWO files per class generally
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17:01:43 <kmc> clearly that's why you should template everything
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17:06:11 <pikhq> Y'mean OOP shouldn't have as much boilerplate as doing it in C?
17:06:36 <kmc> the C++ FQA claims that 'pointer to incomplete struct type' is a better form of encapsulation than anything C++ provides
17:07:06 <pikhq> This is true in terms of degree of encapsulation at least.
17:07:27 <Bike> oh, that reminds me. that code i was reading earlier had a type defined as a pointer to a struct type that was never actually defined. intentionally.
17:07:29 <pikhq> Adding private members breaks ABI. :)
17:07:32 <kmc> it's true that C++ is also boilerplate-tastic, but it's less offensively so than Java imo, because C++ gives you lots of tools (arguably too many) and lets you do what you will with them
17:07:50 <pikhq> Yeah, Java's far worse with it.
17:08:09 <kmc> and so people do come up with lots of clever ways to avoid boilerplate in C++
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17:11:07 <FreeFull> Write haskell implementation in C++
17:11:12 <FreeFull> Write the rest of your code in haskell
17:11:37 <kmc> then you have a bunch of haskell boilerplate instead
17:12:04 <pikhq> Write Haskell implementation in Brainfuck.
17:12:09 <pikhq> Write the rest of your code in Haskell.
17:12:14 <kmc> Haskell is a good language but it's fairly boilerplatey in my estimation
17:12:25 <kmc> not if you're writing a 2 line prime number sieve
17:12:28 <kmc> but like, a real program
17:18:26 <kmc> isn't the correct response "no."
17:18:29 <Bike> So turing complete.
17:18:43 <kmc> (prolog joke)
17:20:43 <FreeFull> A serious answer is that it is turing complete
17:21:04 <FreeFull> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolog#Turing_completeness
17:21:24 <fizzie> ECMA-232 has a bit of informal text on what kind of host environment is provided by web browsers and web servers that support ECMAScript; but all the parts that are part of the DOM standards are not part of ECMAScript proper.
17:22:42 <fizzie> kmc: The correct response is "Out of local stack." (SWI-Prolog joke.)
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17:29:31 <fizzie> (A classic example: http://sprunge.us/GMEe -- you can be all "you call this a declarative language" after that kind of stuff.)
17:34:24 <ion> Is the problem with the order of the ancestor definitions?
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17:40:49 <fizzie> ion: The order of the two goals in the recursive one, yes. But, I mean, declarative! What's this about order of things.
17:41:21 <fizzie> (You could probably devise a similar example that'd hinge on the order of rules too, since that also matters.)
17:41:42 <FreeFull> Order of declaring things in Haskell doesn't matter as long as it's all in the same file
17:42:17 <Bike> That's different.
17:42:57 <ion> freefull: The order of the alternative definitions of a function matters.
17:43:08 <FreeFull> kmc: What is the least boilerplatey programming language?
17:43:26 <FreeFull> Yeah, it does matter for pattern matching
17:43:51 <kmc> FreeFull: i don't know
17:44:13 <kmc> very dynamic languages generally let you abstract things in very powerful and direct ways
17:44:39 <kmc> but you get less static checking, and less understandable semantics to some degree
17:45:50 <elliott> types can ease reduction of boilerplate
17:45:59 <kmc> a classic example is generic serialization
17:46:13 <kmc> a function that takes any object and writes out its data members (recursively) as JSON or something
17:46:14 <elliott> stuff like scrap your boilerplate-style generics relies pretty essentially on types, even
17:46:39 <kmc> in Python or JavaScript this is very easy because you can directly enumerate the fields of an object, at runtime, as strings
17:46:43 <kmc> in C++ it's a bloody mess
17:46:46 <elliott> and you need static types to do things like choose values based on types (typeclasses), which combined with type inference can help a lot for concision
17:46:58 <kmc> in Haskell it's doable with some somewhat fancy machinery (as elliott is saying)
17:47:11 <elliott> kmc: i think it's actually hard in something like js
17:47:18 <elliott> because your objects are going to have unserialisable things like functions in them
17:47:27 <elliott> and you don't know which of those are "static" or whatever
17:47:27 <kmc> true, but you can detect those and get past them
17:47:43 <elliott> well you fundamentally have to structure your objects in a certain way if you want it to work
17:48:22 <Bike> What do you mean?
17:49:00 <elliott> well if you make an object that stores its name in a field and has a function that uses that field, it'll work
17:49:14 <FreeFull> kmc: .methods or something else?
17:49:15 <elliott> if you make an object that stores a function in a field at construction time that closes over the name it's given, it'll behave the same
17:49:20 <elliott> but it won't be serialisable
17:49:27 <elliott> your serialisation routine will just break things silently or whatever
17:50:04 <FreeFull> The JSON thing could probably be done with the use of GHC generics (GHC-only of course)
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17:50:34 <Bike> i've been wondering about not being able to serialize functions
17:50:46 <kmc> YHC had a thing for serializing functions
17:51:18 <kmc> anyway there are lots of other tricks you can play in dynamic languages that aren't so easy in Haskell, even with Generics and SYB and whatever else
17:51:46 <elliott> haskell doesn't go far enough :p
17:51:47 <kmc> things that look more like generating code, either with 'eval' or just by gluing together lots of functions in a way that's hard to statically type
17:51:56 <FreeFull> Haskell functions don't really have an accessible representation from inside the code
17:52:04 <kmc> dynamically generating classes based on data files
17:52:10 <kmc> automatically generating RPC wrappers
17:52:12 <kmc> stuff like that
17:52:13 <Bike> FreeFull: Lisp doesn't either.
17:52:38 <Bike> I mean compiled functions, not source.
17:52:39 <kmc> FreeFull: I want something like TH that sucks less and also is accessible at runtime
17:52:40 <Halite> [Update] there is a big update to my JavaLisp which will transform the high-level language you know of to a lower-level language.
17:52:55 <Bike> If you want to throw around strings you can do that shit in Haskell too (though not as trivially)
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17:53:12 <Halite> [Update] So, instead of ["print", ["hi
17:53:14 <Bike> Or some parsed format, obviously. Bla bla algebraic types ML bla.
17:53:23 <monqy> [update] did you fix your interpreter bugs i hinted at
17:53:29 <monqy> [update] or test at all
17:53:37 <ion> [update] This is an update.
17:54:02 <Bike> But I've been thinking that with reified environments and a bit of introspection on closures you could do some neat stuff.
17:54:17 <kmc> > fix ("[Update] "++)
17:54:19 <lambdabot> "[Update] [Update] [Update] [Update] [Update] [Update] [Update] [Update] [U...
17:54:20 <Halite> monqy, I'm transforming my JavaLisp so instead of using ret(), you have to use "SLIT" and whatever command you want to use to operate
17:54:38 <Halite> please don't spam [Update]
17:54:59 <Bike> what the hell is SLIT
17:55:01 <nooodl_> [update] please don't spam [update]
17:55:17 <ion> [Update] nooodl, this applies to you, too. Do not spam [update].
17:55:22 <fizzie> [suggestion] [offtopic] [meta] [bad] [worse] [dickbutts] I think we should tag any and all channel messages?
17:55:24 <kmc> [update] FYAD is leaking
17:55:35 <Halite> [Update] ion, this applies to you too.
17:55:52 <Bike> kmc: what's TH?
17:55:58 <FireFly> Now Halite's updates are the only one not containing '[update]'
17:56:01 <kmc> LOL WIN OMG CUTE WTF FAIL GEEKY WOOT! TRASHY OLD EW
17:56:42 <Halite> [Lol] What have I got you all into - let's make a tag fad!
17:57:08 <Halite> > "[Update]".split(p);
17:57:10 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:20: parse error on input `;'
17:57:20 <lambdabot> It could refer to either `System.Random.split...
17:57:21 <kmc> ttants: JavaScript, Haskell
17:57:28 <Halite> > "[Update]".split("p");
17:57:30 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:22: parse error on input `;'
17:57:37 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
17:57:50 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
17:57:58 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
17:58:02 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
17:58:11 <Bike> I think we already are.
17:58:18 <kmc> posting in this high quality thread
17:58:26 <Bike> Right, so fuck this.
17:58:38 <Bike> Is there metaprogramming that doesn't have to rely on dynamic type information?
17:58:51 <Bike> Expression-manipulation, really
17:58:52 <Halite> Ambiguous occurence `****'
17:59:16 <Halite> It could refer to either `System.Swear.censor...
17:59:29 <elliott> you're allowed to swear in #esoteric you know
17:59:50 <Bike> please, this is a family establishment
17:59:55 <Halite> only when you mention the BrainFuck programming language
18:00:04 <elliott> it's brainfuck, not BrainFuck, btw
18:00:18 <Halite> elliott, I like to formally capitalise letters in that way.
18:00:47 <elliott> i'm... unsure of the meaning of formal being used here, but okay
18:01:03 <Halite> I'm just telling you, JavaLisp is becoming a very low-level language without returns
18:01:13 <FreeFull> Dependent typing sucked me in and now Haskell isn't good enough D:
18:01:50 <FireFly> Halite's compiles-to-JS language
18:01:58 <elliott> FreeFull: trying to actually write code with the current dependently-typed languages should dispel this quickly enough
18:02:21 <kmc> So then I said Can you put your legs behind your head And she was like all Excuse me sir And I was like My tongue can reach into my ears do you want to see And she goes You're not welcome in this McDonald's anymore So I was like Well Actually I'm not welcome in ANY McDonald's and do you know why
18:02:26 <Halite> FireFly, it doesn't compile to JS, it is interpreted
18:02:47 <kmc> Then I just clenched my fists and SCREAMED as I stared straight into her eyes. I got in like a good eight second scream That may not sound like much but try it sometime
18:03:10 <FreeFull> elliott: I've been looking at Idris
18:03:19 <Halite> kmc, I've screamed for nearly that many seconds before
18:03:24 <FreeFull> It needs quite a bit of polish, but is usable enough for me
18:04:18 <Bike> http://achewood.com/?date=11032003 i'm intrigued by this "ice cream shop"
18:04:32 <kmc> there should be a IDE for Idris named Elba
18:05:06 <fizzie> FreeFull: You sounded like that adultcatfinder site there.
18:06:27 <kmc> http://www.flickr.com/photos/laughingsquid/4394294275/lightbox/
18:06:47 <Bike> every time FreeFull mentions Idris I think of the actor agh
18:08:31 <fizzie> FreeFull: Well, you know, just compare http://adultcatfinder.com/ demo with <FreeFull> [meow] meow [/meow]
18:08:52 <kmc> cat markup language
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18:10:08 <nooodl_> kmc: "a markup language for plaintext files"?
18:10:28 <Halite> JavaLisp has been updated
18:10:30 <Halite> https://www.dropbox.com/s/3dwhyzgdfe456j1/JavaLisp.js
18:11:17 <fizzie> "no" is a good restriction.
18:11:47 <Halite> I should remove that or finish it
18:11:56 <kmc> you should use switch case
18:12:34 <kmc> i don't think you can call this a "dialect of lisp" if it doesn't have functions or cons pairs or anything else that lisp has
18:12:57 <kmc> it looks more like a machine language coded using a JavaScript-style variant of S-expressions
18:13:51 <Halite> https://www.dropbox.com/s/3dwhyzgdfe456j1/JavaLisp.js
18:14:08 <monqy> nooodl_: it's embedded in js soooooooooo
18:14:15 <elliott> kmc: it doesn't have much to do with java either :P
18:14:31 <Halite> elliott, the Java in it is short for Javascript
18:14:37 <kmc> that's true, it does say "This is a dialect of Lisp, coded in JavaScript" tho
18:14:37 <monqy> nooodl_: surprised the first thing you noticed wasn't something about nested expressions. that's sure what i noticed first, on the last ver. too
18:15:04 <kmc> MONTY PYTHON'S FLYING CIRCUS
18:15:04 <nooodl_> is this like an "extension" to javascript, Halite
18:15:15 <nooodl_> or is it a language on its own
18:15:33 <Halite> nooodl_, not exactly. It is a language of its own. It doesn't need control flow yet.
18:16:07 <monqy> i guess it's not quite embedded........
18:16:12 <monqy> im too tired for this
18:16:13 <fizzie> FreeFull: Yes, I was a bit late commenting on it.
18:19:33 <Halite> it seems to be like Basic
18:19:57 <Halite> I could call it Becma - or ECMA Basic - but ECMA is trademarked
18:20:26 <FireFly> I still like the name ACMEScript
18:20:50 <Halite> JSBasic is a good name
18:21:11 <Halite> I'll rename JavaLisp to JSBasic
18:21:57 <FreeFull> Of course there already is a jsbasic
18:22:19 <FreeFull> Is a BASIC to javascript compiler
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18:25:02 <oerjan> time for new featured language in a few hours hth
18:25:22 <elliott> oerjan: i'll make you an admin so you can be sure it's done
18:25:48 <Bike> "For at least two months, Google employees were exposed to excessive levels of a hazardous chemical after workers disabled a critical part of the ventilation system at the company's new satellite campus on a Superfund toxic waste site. [...]" good, good
18:27:14 <kmc> 'One Google employee who was visibly pregnant was asked if she was aware of risks associated with TCE exposure. "We're really not allowed to talk about it," she said. "Sorry."'
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18:32:29 <olsner> since google does no evil, it must be harmless
18:33:22 <FreeFull> Nobody says who the workers were
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18:40:16 <Halite> I might be calling my language Javarray
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18:41:34 <Halite> how about JSON++ - it suggests JSON + 1, the 1 being the part that is using JSON
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18:41:50 <FireFly> I thought that was the JSON part...
18:42:35 <Bike> pretty sure you should use a randomly generated stream of characters, for max security
18:43:40 <HackEgo> bin: \ ? \ @ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ addquote \ allquotes \ anonlog \ aseen \ botsnack \ bseen \ calc \ CaT \ define \ delquote \ emmental \ emoclew \ emptylist \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ fueue \ gaseen \ google \ h \ ?h \ h! \ hatesgeo \ hello \ ?hh \ hyfinate \ hyphenate.fi \ instalist \ interp \ joustreport \ jousturl \ js \ json
18:44:03 <Halite> there is an object Object, a JSON (the 1) object Object++, and the functions (the Sharp) would make it Object#
18:44:15 <HackEgo> bin/js: POSIX shell script text executable
18:44:23 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ \ JAVA_CMD="/usr/bin/java" \ JAVA_OPTS="" \ JAVA_CLASSPATH="/usr/share/java/js.jar:/usr/share/java/jline.jar" \ JAVA_MAIN="org.mozilla.javascript.tools.shell.Main" \ \ ## Fix for #512498 \ ## Change Bootclasspath when using OpenJDK because OpenJDK6 \ ## bundle his own release of Rhino.
18:45:45 <fizzie> It should be OdinMonkey or [insert some kind of latest V8 thing] or something.
18:45:56 <HackEgo> cat: google: No such file or directory
18:46:15 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'Google what?' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr " " %` \ \ lynx --cfg=/dev/null --lss=/dev/null \ \ --dump --width=1000 'http://google.com/search?q='"$QUERY" | \ grep -A 4 'Search Results' | \ tail -n 2
18:46:16 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'Google what?' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr " " %` \ \ lynx --cfg=/dev/null --lss=/dev/null \ \ --dump --width=1000 'http://google.com/search?q='"$QUERY" | \ grep -A 4 'Search Results' | \ tail -n 2
18:46:32 <fizzie> It's not a work, right? Those things aren't, right?
18:46:47 <fizzie> At least translatefromto is a broke, I think.
18:47:02 <HackEgo> \ Looking up 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Making HTTP connection to 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Sending HTTP request. \ HTTP request sent; waiting for response. \ Alert!: Unexpected network read error; connection aborted. \ Can't Access `http://google.com/search?q=%68%65%6c%6c%6f' \ Alert!: Unable to access document. \ \ lynx: Can't access startfile
18:47:06 <AnotherTest> what if someone ran rm / -R --no-preserve-root
18:47:16 <fizzie> AnotherTest: Then it wouldn't get committed.
18:47:24 <Bike> `run rm / -R --no-preserve-root
18:47:28 <elliott> and it'd give a lot of permission errors.
18:47:32 <FireFly> What if someone preserved the canary file or whatever
18:47:33 <fizzie> AnotherTest: If you were careful about it, you could remove many things, but then it would get reverted.
18:47:48 <HackEgo> accesslog \ a.out \ bin \ brainfuck.fu \ canary \ Category:Self-modifying \ dbg.out \ dkVb20VL \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ lib \ link \ mnt \ paste \ prefs \ prefs.bf \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ rainbow \ sgfoobar \ share \ sli
18:47:55 <HackEgo> rm: descend into write-protected directory `/'?
18:48:06 <fizzie> Heh, it asked a question.
18:48:29 <fizzie> I see /hackenv is getting kind of messy.
18:48:44 <FireFly> `run file * | grep -v directory
18:48:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: accesslog: not found
18:48:47 <HackEgo> accesslog: empty \ a.out: empty \ brainfuck.fu: ASCII text \ canary: ASCII text \ Category:Self-modifying: HTM
18:49:25 <elliott> `run rm canary; mkdir canary; touch canary/hmm
18:49:29 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `canary': Is a directory \ mkdir: cannot create directory `canary': File exists
18:49:35 <elliott> oh it's already a directlry
18:49:49 <fizzie> You did successfully make a hmm.
18:49:50 <Halite> I've finished updating to Object#
18:49:53 <Halite> https://www.dropbox.com/s/danqgqxf48q25hk/Object%23.js
18:51:19 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `canary': Is a directory
18:51:31 <HackEgo> rm: missing operand \ Try `rm --help' for more information.
18:51:32 <HackEgo> bash: shutdown: command not found
18:51:38 <FireFly> `run file * | grep -v directory | sed 's/\s+/ /g'
18:51:40 <HackEgo> accesslog: empty \ a.out: empty \ brainfuck.fu: ASCII text \ Category:Self-modifying: HTML document text \ dbg.out:
18:51:42 <HackEgo> bash: halt: command not found
18:51:44 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `./*': No such file or directory
18:52:06 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14263
18:52:17 <Halite> https://www.dropbox.com/s/danqgqxf48q25hk/Object%23.js
18:52:18 <elliott> fizzie: http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/d6195e6aa777
18:52:24 <elliott> fizzie: it somehow turned canary into a directory?
18:52:50 <fizzie> elliott: Huh, that's really quite curious.
18:53:06 <HackEgo> wget: invalid option -- ' ' \ Usage: wget [OPTION]... [URL]... \ \ Try `wget --help' for more options.
18:53:45 <fizzie> AnotherTest: Don't do it; but you didn't `run, so it all got treated as a single argument.
18:53:59 <fizzie> The -r option was fine; the "- " one wasn't.
18:54:06 <HackEgo> --2013-03-31 18:54:04-- http://google.com/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... No data received. \ Retrying. \ \ --2013-03-31 18:54:05-- (try: 2) http://google.com/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... 301 Moved Permanently \ Location: http
18:54:17 <fizzie> I think you sort of ignored the first half of that sentence.
18:54:39 <AnotherTest> fizzie: yeah, sorry. I should read properly next time
18:54:48 <Halite> `run echo AnotherTest ...
18:55:01 <Halite> `run echo Hello everyone!
18:55:05 <HackEgo> accesslog \ a.out \ bin \ brainfuck.fu \ canary \ Category:Self-modifying \ dbg.out \ dkVb20VL \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ google.com \ Halite \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ lib \ link \ mnt \ paste \ prefs \ prefs.bf \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ rainbow \
18:55:38 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: cannot access add object.#: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access add object.#: No such file or directory
18:56:01 <fizzie> elliott: I can't really figure out where "cannot remove `canary': Is a directory" came from.
18:56:13 <HackEgo> accesslog \ a.out \ bin \ brainfuck.fu \ canary \ Category:Self-modifying \ dbg.out \ dkVb20VL \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ google.com \ Halite \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ lib \ link \ mnt \ O# \ paste \ prefs \ prefs.bf \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ rainb
18:56:24 <elliott> Halite: can you please stop spamming the bot
18:56:45 <Halite> `run echo Hello, elliott.
18:56:58 <elliott> yes, that is an example of the thing you should not be doing
18:57:29 <Halite> let's talk about my programming language called Object# at the moment
18:57:52 <Halite> https://www.dropbox.com/s/danqgqxf48q25hk/Object%23.js
18:58:31 <HackEgo> accesslog \ a.out \ bin \ brainfuck.fu \ Category:Self-modifying \ dbg.out \ dkVb20VL \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ google.com \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ lib \ link \ paste \ prefs \ prefs.bf \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ rainbow \ sgfoobar \ share \ slist
18:59:03 <zzo38> Halite: It is also possible to access the bot by private messages too, if it is necessary to do so.
18:59:30 <Halite> let's talk about my programming language
18:59:40 <Halite> it's esoteric of course
19:00:39 -!- ogrom has joined.
19:01:16 <kmc> generally you can't just walk into a room and demand that the conversation topic change to what you want it to be
19:01:23 <kmc> maybe you can tell us what's interesting about your language
19:03:38 <Halite> it's interesting because its syntax is like this: ["cmd", [arg1, arg2]]
19:03:49 <kmc> that's not interesting
19:04:12 <Halite> WHAT THE HECK IS INTERESTING THEN!!!!
19:04:12 <kmc> who cares where the brackets are, or whether they're square brackets or parentheses
19:04:34 <Halite> my imagination is ****
19:04:49 <kmc> Halite: you should learn about what programming languages actually are
19:04:50 <Bike> syntax <-- hey did i tell you peeps that there was a usenet post that somebody interpreted as "McCarthy invented Haskell back in 1960"
19:04:52 <FireFly> Semantics is usually more interesting than syntax
19:04:53 <Bike> it was p. great
19:04:56 <kmc> start here http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html
19:05:04 <Fiora> kmc: I demand that this channel talk about pokemon
19:05:10 * Fiora runs and hides behind Bike
19:05:13 <kmc> 1 2 3 4 5 6 POKéMON!
19:05:19 <kmc> Fiora did you see my AES-NI programs
19:05:22 <elliott> i'd rather talk about pokemon than a language where the syntax is json
19:05:28 <elliott> Bike: anti-communist, functional programmer
19:05:30 <kmc> Alan Perlis was born on April 1
19:05:34 <elliott> Bike: that one doesn't really work either does it :(
19:05:57 <Bike> unfortunately the only joke about "mccarthy" i can think of involves the army trials where he went on about The Gays
19:06:03 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:06:26 <kmc> elliott: is that like "Brewer, Patriot"
19:06:26 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
19:06:31 <Bike> and well i'm hardly going to call someone gay as an insult.
19:07:17 <zzo38> Plain text files can be uploaded also using sprunge, by command-line programs or using a HTML form.
19:07:29 <Bike> I guess if it's the Lisp guy i could say something about it atrocious writing, but then i'd just be talking about the shittiness that is GOFAI
19:07:49 <kmc> https://github.com/kmcallister/aesni-examples
19:07:53 <zzo38> I want to make pokemon game in SQL
19:08:05 <elliott> gandalf's only father's ailing infantry
19:08:31 <elliott> kmc: i can't read kmcallister is anything but "kay em cee... allister"
19:08:50 <Halite> From the book: 'A computational process is indeed much like a sorcerer's idea of a spirit. It cannot be seen or touched. It is not composed of matter at all. However, it is very real. It can perform intellectual work. It can answer questions. It can affect the world by disbursing money at a bank or by controlling a robot arm in a factory. The programs we use to conjure processes are like a sorcerer's spells. They are carefully composed from s
19:08:52 <Halite> ymbolic expressions in arcane and esoteric programming languages that prescribe the tasks we want our processes to perform.'
19:09:24 <Bike> I'm pretty sure most of us have read it, dude.
19:09:48 <Bike> Or at least you don't need to dump out quotes from the intro.
19:09:59 <kmc> Halite: and the machines that run programs are made by drawing strange patterns on rocks, then dipping them in dangerous chemicals
19:10:01 <fizzie> kmc: For a moment there, I thought AES-NI was a... brand? model? species? of Pokémon.
19:10:06 <Halite> so a programming languages contain the symbolic expression library that the program is prescribed to perform
19:10:07 <elliott> i tell people to read sicp but i'm too cool to actually read it
19:10:13 <kmc> AES-NI, I choose you!
19:10:22 <Halite> that's what my idea of a language was in the first chickening place
19:10:23 <elliott> i only buy pokemon from shelters
19:10:26 <Bike> Wow, the instruction's actually called "key_expand"?
19:10:27 <kmc> Bulbasaur uses CACHE TIMING SIDE CHANNEL. It's not effective!
19:10:36 <kmc> Bike: no that's my macro
19:10:50 <kmc> the instruction is called AESKEYGENASSIST but as the name implies, it doesn't do the whole operation
19:11:02 <elliott> that instruction is a bit too long imo
19:11:03 <Fiora> kmc: what's the shuffling bit in the key_combine for? do we need to reverse the keys or something?
19:11:06 <Bike> "aeskeygenassist" ahahaha.
19:11:10 <elliott> it should have to be AEKYGA or something
19:11:23 <fizzie> AKGNSST sounds mnemonicky, too.
19:11:24 <kmc> Fiora: it's just what gets you from the output of AESKEYGENASSIST to the actual round key
19:11:35 <kmc> i don't know why those steps aren't included in the instruction
19:11:41 <Halite> my idea was that a programming language defines the rules of the symbolic 'spells' that our programs are made of
19:11:52 <kmc> possibly because you need to do other things on different rounds of AES-192 or AES-256?
19:11:58 <Fiora> kmc: I'm guessing too many registers involved? and could be that, yeah
19:11:59 <Bike> OK, but that doesn't actually mean anything.
19:12:15 <Halite> kmc wants to waste my time
19:12:31 <Fiora> Bike: I was making a bad joke about x86 naming <.<
19:12:34 <elliott> pretty sure kmc is right and you should read sicp
19:12:36 <Bike> not you, fiora
19:12:38 <elliott> instead of just one paragraph of the intro
19:12:46 <Bike> this guy */me points*
19:12:47 <elliott> and then insulting him based on your misreading of that singel paragraph
19:12:55 <Bike> as usual this assembly stuff is way beyond me
19:12:57 * Fiora tries to understand kycombine code
19:13:01 <Bike> i can't take this keyassistince
19:13:01 <Halite> Object# does define the rules - 'flow' is a rule - 'alert' is a rule
19:13:08 -!- carado has joined.
19:13:12 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:13:25 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: gazetteer get-shapr ghc girl19 google googleit gsite gwiki . ? @ v
19:13:30 <Halite> kmc, I do mean that Object# be atleast Turing complete, nevermind making any sense.
19:13:40 <Bike> Nevermind making any sense indeed.
19:14:31 <Fiora> oooh. so it's calculating
19:14:40 <lambdabot> http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=hmm
19:14:49 <Fiora> {P0^V P1^P0^V P2^P1^P0^V P3^P2^P1^P0^V}?
19:15:04 <Fiora> that's some really sneaky shuffling code, I love it
19:15:18 <kmc> stole it from Linux :)
19:15:36 <kmc> hm actually I found some link that illustrates AES key expansion well
19:15:41 <kmc> i should add it to the comments
19:15:52 <Fiora> the comment was there, I saw it!
19:15:56 <Fiora> it just took me some time to figureit out ^^;
19:16:14 <kmc> i mean more about, why is {P0^V P1^P0^V P2^P1^P0^V P3^P2^P1^P0^V} what we want to compute
19:16:36 <kmc> well the answer is just "because that's how AES is specified" but I think there's a nice way of showing the whole dealy
19:16:39 <kmc> going to try to find it
19:17:01 <Bike> Wait, that's all exponentiation?
19:19:02 <kmc> http://www.cs.bc.edu/~straubin/cs381-05/blockciphers/rijndael_ingles2004.swf
19:19:10 <Halite> Bike, the reason I said nevermind making any sense is because kmc is putting pressure on me making me read a 100 000 000 page book
19:19:28 <kmc> Halite: yes because you are ignorant and reading books is a good way to learn things
19:19:56 <fizzie> Oh no, I think my bookshelf is about to collapse. I didn't realize it had that many pages!
19:20:08 <kmc> if you want to remain ignorant and make boring languages, that's fine, but you can't badger us into talking about your boring language
19:20:11 <elliott> Halite: well you are putting pressure on the channel to talk about your language
19:20:14 <elliott> i don't really see how that is any different
19:20:28 <Bike> I wonder if any book (or rather, series of books) has had that many pages.
19:20:28 <Sgeo> "In my fortress everything is weaponised against my own dwarves. Usually unintentionally, but it happens regardless."
19:20:33 <Bike> How many does the Mahabharata have again?
19:20:49 <kmc> how many pages is the US Code?
19:21:09 <Bike> Hm, the critical edition is only 13k.
19:21:30 <fizzie> Bike: Google Book Search indexes 20 million books, so if you can call it a "series" (you can't), in total it'd probably pass that number of pages.
19:21:31 <FireFly> I wonder how many pages the article namespace of wikipedia would require
19:21:40 <Bike> This animation is kind of neat.
19:21:48 <Fiora> kmc: do you know what the deal is with the numbers being passed to key_expand?
19:21:52 <oerjan> `run rm accesslog a.out Category:Self-modifying dbg.out dkVb20VL foo foo.out foo.err google.com/index.html index.html link prefs prefs.bf
19:21:55 <Bike> FireFly: I think they estimated that somewhere.
19:22:03 <HackEgo> accesslog \ a.out \ bin \ brainfuck.fu \ Category:Self-modifying \ dbg.out \ dkVb20VL \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ google.com \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ lib \ link \ paste \ prefs \ prefs.bf \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ rainbow \ sgfoobar \ share \ slist
19:22:04 <HackEgo> rmdir: failed to remove `google.com': Directory not empty
19:22:26 <HackEgo> rmdir: invalid option -- 'f' \ Try `rmdir --help' for more information.
19:22:33 <HackEgo> accesslog \ a.out \ bin \ brainfuck.fu \ Category:Self-modifying \ dbg.out \ dkVb20VL \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ google.com \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ lib \ link \ paste \ prefs \ prefs.bf \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ rainbow \ sgfoobar \ share \ slist
19:22:46 <Bike> Hm how many page is Needham's?
19:22:50 <fizzie> AnotherTest: It's an option for rm.
19:22:54 <oerjan> `run rm accesslog a.out Category:Self-modifying dbg.out dkVb20VL foo foo.out foo.err google.com/index.html index.html link prefs prefs.bf
19:22:56 <Bike> I think it's pretty damn long.
19:23:03 <HackEgo> accesslog \ a.out \ bin \ brainfuck.fu \ Category:Self-modifying \ dbg.out \ dkVb20VL \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ google.com \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ lib \ link \ paste \ prefs \ prefs.bf \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ rainbow \ sgfoobar \ share \ slist
19:23:17 <Bike> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_Civilisation_in_China
19:23:19 <fizzie> AnotherTest: I don't think my rmdir has ever had that option. (Maybe some shell builtin has.)
19:23:23 <elliott> oerjan: maybe the canary being a directory broke this
19:23:30 <elliott> `run rmdir canary; echo chirp >canary
19:23:34 <HackEgo> rmdir: failed to remove `canary': No such file or directory
19:23:43 <elliott> oh right because it was an empty directory?
19:23:48 <elliott> well anyway it should work now.
19:23:49 <Bike> Wow, they've been publishing it for fifty years.
19:23:52 <kmc> i guess part of why they split it up is to make the instructions also useful for relatives of AES, like Rijndael with other block sizes, or some of the hash functions that use AES parts
19:23:53 <oerjan> `run rm accesslog a.out Category:Self-modifying dbg.out dkVb20VL foo foo.out foo.err google.com/index.html index.html link prefs prefs.bf
19:23:54 <elliott> Halite: if you don't like the channel then leave.
19:24:00 <HackEgo> bin \ brainfuck.fu \ canary \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ google.com \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ rainbow \ sgfoobar \ share \ slist.rej \ src \ test \ ul.emm \ wisdom
19:24:01 <Bike> I'm going to assume Fiora has the entire thing.
19:24:13 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `brainfuck.fu src' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
19:24:17 <oerjan> `run mv brainfuck.fu src
19:24:19 <elliott> what is brainfuck.fu even.
19:24:21 <Fiora> kmc: did you get my message? I think it migh have been lost in the flood
19:24:23 <Bike> Fiora: you like chinese history, right.
19:24:31 <HackEgo> bash: ul.emm: command not found
19:24:34 <Fiora> what's going on <_>
19:24:37 <HackEgo> init(1): Operation not permitted \ init(279): Operation not permitted
19:24:40 <kmc> the numbers being passed to key_expand?
19:24:46 <kmc> they're just the round constants
19:24:49 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ google.com \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ rainbow \ sgfoobar \ share \ slist.rej \ src \ test \ wisdom
19:24:52 <kmc> i think they come from... math somehow
19:24:59 <Bike> kmc sums up crypto
19:25:02 <fizzie> oerjan: I was thinking of doing that kind of thing except couldn't figure out a sufficiently witty "# comment" to put after it.
19:25:03 <oerjan> elliott: my programs in fueue and emmental
19:25:04 <kmc> Fiora: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijndael_key_schedule#Rcon
19:25:15 <Bike> From The Polynomial They Came, out this summer
19:25:18 <oerjan> fizzie: i considered making a comment but...
19:25:22 <kmc> 0x01, 0x02, 0x04, 0x08, 0x10, 0x20, 0x40, 0x80, 0x1b, 0x36
19:25:57 <elliott> RIP radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab*, too beautiful for this world
19:26:24 <Halite> how on earth can I have my language be interesting when my imagination is 1 out of 5
19:26:35 <kmc> learn more things
19:26:44 <kmc> read SICP and read about other esolangs on the wiki
19:26:49 <Halite> kmc, teach me more things
19:26:50 <Fiora> sorry they're being a bit harsh to you Halite :<
19:26:58 <kmc> i'm sure others here can give you suggestions for esolangs that are interesting
19:27:02 <Fiora> but yeah, you should try learning more languages so you have more ideas to run from
19:27:08 <Halite> Fiora, thank you for realising that
19:27:09 <Fiora> there's some super silly and fun esolangs
19:27:09 <Bike> Halite: We have books to sum up things we could say in a more structured, thought-out form.
19:27:10 <kmc> Halite: I'm trying. i'm telling you what to read
19:27:18 <kmc> that's how teaching works, often
19:27:19 <fizzie> Bike: "August 2010: It was announced that Google intends to scan all known existing 129,864,880 books by the end of the decade, accounting to over 4 billion digital pages and 2 trillion words in total" -- that implies a "book" on average has only something over 30 pages. (Well, "digital pages". Whatever that means.)
19:27:27 <elliott> Fiora: you might not be aware of halite's "history" here
19:27:28 <kmc> i'm not going to sit here and type each line from SICP into the channel, one by one
19:27:34 <Bike> fizzie: I imagine they have a lot of garbage.
19:27:36 <kmc> if you do some of the SICP exercises I can take a look and give feedback
19:27:43 <kmc> (i've taught a class using that book several times)
19:27:50 <fizzie> kmc: But are you going to make a bot to sit here and type each line from SICP into the channel, one by one. (Don't.)
19:27:59 <elliott> #esoteric, the most confusing place
19:28:00 <Halite> elliott, I am too weak to suffer kmc's criticism. I admit that myself.
19:28:00 * Fiora crawls back over to the corner and reads aes code and plays anno
19:28:13 <Halite> elliott, I just want peace, though.
19:28:14 <zzo38> I can play pokemon card too!
19:28:18 <Bike> Oh that reminds me kmc, I saw a dots and lines graphic of environments in something pretty unrelated to SICP and thought of you. you've infected me.
19:28:22 <elliott> Halite: you realise he is trying to help you, not criticise you...
19:28:38 <elliott> Fiora: i am as confused as you are
19:28:54 <kmc> this is not the first or second time this has happened
19:28:57 <Bike> kmc: speaking of which you might enjoy looking at the "memory pool system", it's where all that crazy C code I was pasting is from, but it's a pretty cool thingie.
19:29:08 <Bike> If you haven't heard of it, I mean.
19:29:12 <kmc> this one? http://www.ravenbrook.com/project/mps/
19:29:39 <zzo38> I play the old rules, where, among other things, the name+level (or name alone, in the case of trainer cards and energy cards) uniquely identifies a card.
19:29:53 <Bike> You can use malloc and GCd memory in the same program and stuff, and there are multiple mallocs and multiple GCs...
19:29:57 <kmc> oh right, I was going to talk to zzo38 about Quantum M:tG
19:30:00 <kmc> Bike: very cool
19:30:24 <Bike> And it's all in really portable and enterprise-in-a-good-way C, which is a bit intimidating
19:30:33 <Bike> "all" -> "not including that stack scanning"
19:31:25 <Bike> (let's just cast a jump buf to an array)
19:31:38 <elliott> you can do prolog in c by doing that
19:32:12 <zzo38> Actually I don't even play exactly by the old rules; I play that ties stand, although I do have a few additional rules for resolving ties, making ties somewhat less likely than it normally is.
19:32:14 <kmc> zzo38: one idea is that each player's life starts at |20> and can reach any superposition of |0>, |1>, |2>, ... (i.e, a quantum harmonic oscillator?)
19:32:38 <kmc> at some point a measurement is taken (maybe there are cards to force this) and if you have 0 life you lose
19:33:05 <Bike> If a measurement is taken, won't you not be able to be in a mixed state any more?
19:33:34 <zzo38> Bike: With existing cards you can't, anyways, I think, but if it is a new game you could also make up new cards, perhaps
19:33:59 <Bike> Somehow I doubt existing cards have Hamiltonians
19:34:24 <zzo38> kmc: OK, perhaps it can be understood, do you need a state vector with a potentially unlimited number of components?
19:34:52 <kmc> yeah, you would need new cards that have interesting quantum operators
19:35:48 -!- Halite has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:35:49 <kmc> i was thinking that the operators should be set up such that the |0> component of your life represents not taking actions, since you're "already dead"
19:35:54 <kmc> but they can still interfere
19:36:12 <kmc> FreeFull: quantum doesn't have complex probabilities to my knowledge
19:36:28 <kmc> it has complex-valued vectors whose norm can be interpreted as a probability
19:36:36 <zzo38> But there is the possibility to have 0 life and still be able to play, in some cases!
19:36:42 <kmc> the norm is a positive number and things are normalized so it's between 0 and 1
19:37:19 <oerjan> `run mkdir retired; mv radio* retired
19:37:23 <HackEgo> mkdir: cannot create directory `retired': File exists
19:38:09 <HackEgo> rainbow \ \ retired: \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab*
19:38:20 <Bike> THis is a good notice.
19:38:35 <oerjan> no idea what the error message is for
19:38:35 <Bike> Oh, it's april fool's day.
19:39:00 <kmc> not yet (maybe in, Japan?)
19:39:01 <zzo38> Neither in my timezone nor the server time is April Fool day yet.
19:39:16 <Sgeo> Which bot is it that does BF?
19:39:20 <Bike> Where's the bf interpreter, might as well do this
19:39:24 <Sgeo> !bf >++++++++++ [>++++++++++>+++++++++++>+++++++++++>+++++++++++>++++++++++><<<<<<-] >+>++>++++>+>+++> <<<<<< >.>.>.>.>.
19:39:28 <elliott> did you guys see that rainbow freenode notice just now
19:39:50 <oerjan> elliott: i thought that was what Bike was referring to
19:40:12 <Bike> Wait, it's easter. Of course it's easer, I even just ate all this fucking chocolate.
19:40:30 <elliott> unfortunately ###eprog##bhggbyhapu is not a channel.
19:42:17 <elliott> hmm it gets rot13'd to outtolunch
19:42:31 <elliott> 20:42:25 -!- Topic for ###eprog: Welcome to level 1 of one of our quizzes, good luck. Staff won't answer your questions :) #####946684800 — 4102444800
19:42:52 <Bike> This seems too challenging for me :( :( :(
19:42:57 <elliott> probably is houldn't paste that in a publicly-logged channel but whatever
19:43:01 <elliott> these further levels look like work
19:43:05 <elliott> so i think i will not bother
19:43:10 -!- alphabeta has joined.
19:43:23 <zzo38> I suppose if making quantum Magic: the Gathering, you might have other thing too which is superposition and entangled, rather than only the life totals?
19:43:42 -!- Halite has joined.
19:43:42 <HackEgo> alphabeta: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:44:09 <zzo38> However, what I do want to make, and know more about, is the mathematical version of Magic: the Gathering cards.
19:44:23 <Halite> I'll have to resort to making another variant of that one-character language
19:44:48 <Sgeo> Googling the numbers gives something interesting
19:44:51 <Halite> it will be minimalistic
19:46:24 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:46:43 -!- sebbu has joined.
19:47:19 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
19:47:19 -!- sebbu has joined.
19:48:07 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
19:48:13 <oerjan> `run rm slist.rej rainbow; mv egobot.tar.xz src; rmdir google.com
19:48:17 <HackEgo> rmdir: failed to remove `google.com': No such file or directory
19:48:29 <oerjan> this is quite ridiculous.
19:48:59 <elliott> I already got rid of google.com, I think
19:48:59 <oerjan> Gregor: i think HackEgo has significant problems handling empty directories
19:49:03 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: cannot access google.com: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access google.com: No such file or directory
19:49:06 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ etc \ factor \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ retired \ share \ src \ wisdom
19:49:14 <elliott> hg doesn't track empty directories at all -- wait why would it list the errors twice.
19:49:16 <HackEgo> google.com: ERROR: cannot open `google.com' (No such file or directory)
19:49:17 <HackEgo> rmdir: failed to remove `bin': Directory not empty
19:49:39 <Gregor> oerjan: HackEgo cannot handle empty directories. Period.
19:49:43 <oerjan> elliott: file showed it as being there before i did that command.
19:49:59 <oerjan> Gregor: it would be nice if it actually _removed_ them properly hth.
19:50:19 <oerjan> Gregor: oh well it seems to be gone now.
19:50:23 <zzo38> Much of which can also be represented in Haskell such as by a Timestamp type. Timestamps are ordered and all objects have unique timestamps, in all zones. The timestamp is corresponding to an existing object or is failing if the object no longer exists (it is never reused). Every object has an optional initial state, and the initial state is idempotent.
19:51:50 <zzo38> Tokens have no initial state. However, now tokens can exist in any zone, such as on the stack, too.
19:52:41 <oerjan> i think HackEgo ./ is fairly clean now.
19:52:56 <zzo38> Furthermore, no more planeswalker type. There will be a new type, which is somewhat similar but also different; if the object is in play, it is a player and a object. If it wins or loses the game, it is discarded.
19:53:17 <zzo38> It belongs to the same team as its controller.
19:53:17 <elliott> Gregor: hackego behaves really weirdly if you do this, also:
19:53:25 <elliott> `run rm canary; mkdir canary; touch canary/hmm
19:53:29 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `canary': Is a directory \ mkdir: cannot create directory `canary': File exists
19:53:48 <elliott> Gregor: your guess as to how on earth those rm/mkdir errors produce that result is as good as mine.
19:53:52 <oerjan> `run mv retired/* share/; rmdir retired
19:53:53 <elliott> Gregor: wait... I have a guess.
19:53:56 <elliott> 20:49:01 <elliott> `ls google.com
19:53:56 <elliott> 20:49:03 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: cannot access google.com: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access google.com: No such file or directory
19:54:00 <elliott> Gregor: is hackego running every command *twice*?
19:54:06 <elliott> that would explain that output of my canary line
19:54:14 <elliott> `run rm -r canary; echo chirp >canary # restore it back
19:54:25 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: cannot access re*: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access re*: No such file or directory
19:54:26 <zzo38> At least to me, such thing is less klugy than existing planeswalkers rules. (It must be called something else, because the name "planeswalkers" is confusion with "plainswalk".)
19:54:37 <elliott> ...though it would not explain that
19:54:57 <oerjan> elliott: ls _does_ show error messages twice btw, an unfortunate side effect of the prevention of listing wisdom/
19:55:00 <elliott> well I give up on understanding
19:55:13 <elliott> oerjan: shouldn't the first invocation be run with 2>/dev/null?
19:55:28 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if /bin/ls -id "$@" | grep -q ^752131 ; then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.'; else exec /bin/ls "$@"; fi
19:55:41 <kmc> Fiora: oh here's a better version of that rijndael animation: http://www.formaestudio.com/rijndaelinspector/archivos/rijndaelanimation.html
19:56:00 <kmc> key schedule starts on step 14
19:56:09 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s/| grep/2>/dev/null | grep' bin/ls
19:56:10 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 14: unknown option to `s'
19:56:25 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s/| grep/2>\/dev\/null | grep/' bin/ls
19:56:36 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: cannot access google.com: No such file or directory
19:56:44 <oerjan> elliott: thanks for tip
19:56:59 <elliott> ideally it would somehow run the second ls with argv[0] = "ls" so that the errors also used "ls:", but you can't have everything :P
19:57:37 <oerjan> well unless you know a way.
19:57:39 -!- alphabeta has left ("Leaving").
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19:57:53 <elliott> well you could do it in C.
19:58:06 <elliott> apparently you can do exec -a ls /bin/ls ...
19:58:23 <kmc> does bash let you exec a program with empty argv?
19:58:38 <elliott> `run exec -a '' /bin/ls google.com
19:58:39 <HackEgo> : cannot access google.com: No such file or directory
19:58:49 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ etc \ factor \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom
19:59:28 <kmc> shachaf taught me about empty argv
19:59:34 <zzo38> I also don't like the name "loyalty" counters; instead, this new one, has life counters, where its life total is equal to the number of its life counters, and ordinary rules for life totals and state-based effects are used. Blocking attacks to such a card is allowed if that card controls any creatures! An alternative is a rule allowing your cards to block attacks to teammates who have no cards able to block; this would have other effects, too, poss
19:59:37 <kmc> now I can find at least one bug in any C program
19:59:39 <kmc> which is a useful party trick
20:00:53 <Bike> does posix allow null argv?
20:01:35 <fizzie> I don't think C allows a null argv either. (An empty one it does.)
20:01:57 <fizzie> The rule about "argv[argc] shall be a null pointer" in e.g. C11 5.1.2.2.1p2 does not seem to have any exceptions.
20:02:07 <zzo38> I called this type "playercard" although it might not be the best thing to call it either.
20:02:40 <fizzie> (Unless by "null argv" you meant exactly that; argc == 0, argv[0] == 0.)
20:02:44 <FreeFull> !bf >++++++++++ [>++++++++++>+++++++++++>+++++++++++>+++++++++++>++++++++++><<<<<<-] >+>++>++++>+>+++> <<<<<< >.>.>.>.>.
20:02:44 <elliott> Fiora: argc = 0, argv[0] = NULL
20:02:52 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ etc \ factor \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom
20:02:56 <Fiora> elliott: oh. getopt seems check for argc<1 and handle it right?
20:02:58 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if /bin/ls -id "$@" 2>/dev/null | grep -q ^752131 ; then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.'; else exec /bin/ls "$@"; fi
20:03:05 <Fiora> if I'm reading this right
20:03:13 <Fiora> also wow gnu coding style is weird
20:03:26 <HackEgo> `? \ ? \ ?? \ ⌨ \ ☃ \ 🐐 \ $1? \ ais523 \ america \ atriq \ atrix \ augur \ banach-tarski \ bicategory \ bienvenue \ bike \ bird \ boily \ bonvenon \ bookwatching \ brain \ brainf**k \ brainfuck \ brick \ burma \ c \ cakeprophet \ california \ category \ category-helpdesk \ certainly \ certainty \ claustrophobia \ coffee \ color \ colour \
20:03:39 <oerjan> elliott: i don't think that is in the right place
20:03:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?brainfuck: not found
20:03:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wisdom: not found
20:04:03 <oerjan> elliott: it doesn't censor wisdom
20:04:22 <oerjan> elliott: alternatively, how do do _just_ stderr and not also stdout
20:04:33 <elliott> well ls wisdom only appears to ping six people now and I don't remember any of them being one of the ones who complained
20:04:39 <elliott> oerjan: that is what 2>/dev/null does
20:04:45 <elliott> perhaps place it after the grep instead or something? I am confused
20:05:02 <zzo38> If you don't need it anymore, then just delete that file now
20:05:15 <oerjan> `run /bin/ls -id wisdom
20:05:16 <zzo38> Or rename it, in case you need it again later, it can be restored easily.
20:05:29 <fizzie> Fiora: There are many getopts, so it's a bit hard to make any statements what "getopt" in general does.
20:05:53 <oerjan> elliott: _or_ it could be that wisdom's inode number has changed. hmph.
20:06:29 -!- alphabeta has joined.
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20:07:21 <elliott> oerjan: oh that makes sense.
20:07:40 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/752131/752129/;s/exec/exec -a ls/' bin/ls
20:07:52 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
20:08:10 <oerjan> elliott: apparently not :(
20:08:14 <fizzie> Fiora: FWIW, I didn't see any *obvious* sanity checks for argv[0] not existing -- and the code later freely uses argv[0] in error messages -- in glibc getopt. But I could've missed them. And I was looking at a random version.
20:09:01 <oerjan> `run sed -i '1s/sh/bash/' bin/ls
20:09:10 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access google.com: No such file or directory
20:09:41 <oerjan> elliott: that inode thing will probably break again :(
20:10:21 <oerjan> alphabeta: one of our bots. it runs a sandboxed linux backed by a mercury repository.
20:10:23 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
20:11:08 <lambdabot> *** "mercurial" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
20:11:12 <lambdabot> adj 1: liable to sudden unpredictable change; "erratic
20:11:13 <lambdabot> behavior"; "fickle weather"; "mercurial twists of
20:11:15 <lambdabot> temperament"; "a quicksilver character, cool and willful
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20:11:24 <oerjan> fizzie: sounds like HackEgo all right.
20:11:45 <HackEgo> GgHeRdOv: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
20:16:41 <oerjan> you're welcome! literally!
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20:22:02 <Halite> SICP only says what you'd find in a real programming language
20:22:23 <Halite> what could make my language interesting, different from others in its own unique way
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20:24:01 <kmc> you read the entire book in like 20 minutes?
20:24:18 -!- heroux has joined.
20:24:28 <Halite> the book will only tell me what is boring
20:24:36 <Halite> and the book itself is boring
20:25:10 <Halite> I'm a little child in a bedroom on a laptop trying to relax.
20:26:01 <Bike> The problem is that interesting things aren't so simple. It takes effort.
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20:28:13 <oerjan> Halite: the point is that it's hard to make an interesting language unless you know about the variation in languages that already exists. otherwise you end up just reinventing something that already exists with a slightly different syntax.
20:29:53 <oerjan> also your language won't be truly interesting unless it contains a genuinely new idea - which you cannot get from books, at least not books about programming languages.
20:29:53 -!- Halite has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
20:30:25 <oerjan> @tell Halite the point is that it's hard to make an interesting language unless you know about the variation in languages that already exists. otherwise you end up just reinventing something that already exists with a slightly different syntax.
20:30:29 <elliott> I have a slight feeling of hopeless doom.
20:30:33 <oerjan> @tell Halite also your language won't be truly interesting unless it contains a genuinely new idea - which you cannot get from books, at least not books about programming languages.
20:30:38 <Taneb> Of my languages, I think maybe two have an original idea
20:30:56 <Taneb> Luigi isn't original at all
20:30:56 <elliott> uh oh, oerjan's going to take over the world again
20:31:03 <Taneb> Neither is MIBBLLII
20:31:21 <Taneb> Not Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
20:31:40 <Bike> No I'm pretty sure that last one is.
20:31:47 <Bike> It's a Nora world and we're all downloading in it
20:32:20 <Taneb> Nah, it's just a new syntax for Lambda Calculus
20:32:21 <oerjan> Taneb: my second point is not entirely absolute. there _is_ also the matter of esthetics.
20:32:48 <Taneb> Fueue is /possibly/ original
20:32:51 <oerjan> but ... it has to be somewhat new esthetics too, presumably.
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20:33:44 <oerjan> sorry, sprinkle a's as appropriate
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20:34:17 <oerjan> (my excuse is that there's not any a in the norwegian word)
20:34:40 <Taneb> aesthetics is the English word
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20:35:00 <Bike> "esthetics" is a fine spelling.
20:35:16 <kmc> itidus => shubshub => halite
20:35:30 <Bike> They're the same person?
20:35:47 <kmc> not what i meant
20:36:01 <Bike> The same person in spirit.
20:36:16 <Taneb> itidus was actually fun
20:36:41 <oerjan> Taneb: also i think Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download has some aesthetic appeal.
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20:36:50 <Vorpal> oerjan, hey I have a great idea for a new original language! It is like brainfuck, but with pointers. I'm /sure/ nobody thought of that before.
20:36:59 <kmc> pointerfuck
20:37:02 <Taneb> oerjan, the aesthetic appeal is ripped straight fro BIT
20:37:11 <oerjan> it's not _me_ you should be hiding from, Vorpal.
20:37:12 <Vorpal> kmc, at least it is ONE step above brainfuck with different syntax
20:37:23 <elliott> oerjan: the aesthetic appeal is the name
20:37:34 <oerjan> elliott: and the syntax.
20:37:37 <elliott> a truly innovative language would be a waste if you used that name
20:37:41 <elliott> because the name would overshadow it
20:38:02 <Vorpal> elliott, what, you think Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is an unusual name?
20:38:21 <Vorpal> what, I say stuff like Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download in everyday conversation all the time.
20:38:25 <Taneb> oerjan, BIT is like Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download, but based on C rather than lambda calculus
20:38:32 <Vorpal> Although, maybe that is why I have no friends
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20:38:55 <elliott> Vorpal: the reasons you have no friends are numerous, I am afraid
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20:39:04 <elliott> hmm, Vorpal rivalry just doesn't feel the same any more.
20:39:10 <elliott> I miss the glory days of 2008.
20:39:28 <Vorpal> elliott, actually, outside of this channel I have a fair number of friends. Both on IRC and in real life. Not a HUGE amount, I'm an introvert.
20:39:30 <Taneb> Back when elliott was the only person in Hexham
20:39:48 <Bike> You had a rivalry?
20:40:02 <Bike> Did you make out?
20:40:07 <Taneb> I have more circles of friends than some of my friends have friends
20:40:37 <elliott> Bike: what you don't realise is that Vorpal used to be even worse!
20:40:38 -!- constant has changed nick to variable.
20:40:54 <Vorpal> Bike, also elliott used to be even more annoying
20:41:40 <oerjan> Vorpal: even he admits it, i think
20:41:58 <Vorpal> well yes, and I admit I have grown up since then too
20:42:03 <elliott> oerjan: watch it if you don't want that adminship.
20:42:05 <Vorpal> nothing strange with both of us growing up
20:42:09 <kmc> is making out thought to be a way to generate rivalries or resolve them?
20:42:14 <kmc> could go either way
20:42:16 <Vorpal> elliott, admin of wiki?
20:42:34 <Bike> It's a continuation.
20:42:56 <Vorpal> Bike, I don't think making out would have been legal considering the ages of the participants.
20:43:03 <Vorpal> elliott, weren't you like 13 back then?
20:43:05 <oerjan> if we didn't get newbies in here, i would long since have become the most immature person in the channel just by all these people passing me.
20:43:16 <Bike> Don't you have romeo and juliet laws in Hexham
20:43:30 <Vorpal> elliott, so wait, you are... 17 now?
20:43:40 <Taneb> Sounds about right
20:43:55 <Taneb> He's about 10 months younger than I am
20:44:06 <oklopol> elliott will always be 12 to me
20:44:15 <Vorpal> oklopol, and always 13 to me heh
20:44:30 <Vorpal> elliott, wow, you can get a driving license soon
20:44:34 <Vorpal> same goes for Taneb I guess
20:44:43 <Taneb> Vorpal, we can both get driving licenses now
20:44:48 <Taneb> I can drink and vote
20:44:52 <Taneb> And have done both
20:44:56 <Vorpal> Taneb, wait, what? What is the limit on driving license in UK?
20:45:04 <Taneb> 17 until next year
20:45:11 <kmc> Taneb: at the same time?
20:45:33 <Vorpal> Taneb, and it is 21 for buying alcohol in Sweden
20:45:36 <Taneb> kmc, no, but I voted Lib Dem, so I may as well been drunk
20:45:56 <Vorpal> Taneb, so are they going to raise it to 18 next year?
20:46:02 <kmc> http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2349/2767290876_424fd45275_z.jpg
20:46:15 <Vorpal> Taneb, for the license I mean
20:46:20 <kmc> Taneb: haha
20:46:32 <kmc> Lib Dems: It Was Worth A Shot
20:46:41 <Vorpal> Taneb, do you have a license?
20:46:48 <kmc> did you vote in the voting referendum too
20:46:51 <Vorpal> Taneb, training for one?
20:47:02 <Taneb> Don't have the confidence
20:47:18 <Vorpal> it gives a great freedom once you have it.
20:47:24 <Taneb> I'm still a bit scared of being a passenger in a car
20:47:30 <Taneb> (but I'm fine on planes...)
20:47:48 <Taneb> Fine on trains, iffy on buses
20:47:55 <Vorpal> Taneb, tandem bicycles?
20:48:12 <Taneb> Depends on the size of the boats, never tried hovercrafts, tandems, or subs
20:48:16 <elliott> well planes are less dangerous than cars
20:48:19 <Taneb> And I'm learning to unicycle
20:48:24 <Vorpal> oerjan, god, I would be scared on a unicycle
20:48:33 <Bike> are you a princess?
20:48:41 <Vorpal> Taneb, what about a normal bicycle?
20:49:01 <Vorpal> oklopol, It probably is once you learn it yes
20:49:22 <Vorpal> oklopol, I have a terrible sense of balance though. Not going to help.
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20:49:44 <Vorpal> oklopol, let me put it this way: I have a hard time standing on one leg.
20:49:57 <oklopol> standing on one leg is easy to learn
20:50:13 <oerjan> Vorpal doesn't have a leg to stand on.
20:50:22 <Taneb> Vorpal, I'm not the most fit of people
20:50:40 <Vorpal> Taneb, why are you scared of cars and busses?
20:50:57 <Vorpal> Taneb, didn't grow up going in them very often?
20:51:00 <Taneb> I get motion sickness easy?
20:51:09 <Taneb> But I've been travelling by car most of my life
20:51:09 <oklopol> i never get motion sickness
20:51:14 <oklopol> but cars are fucking scary
20:51:31 <Vorpal> Taneb, having problems sitting backwards in trains or busses then?
20:51:36 <elliott> Vorpal: cars are stupidly dangerous
20:51:40 <Taneb> I can sit backwards in trains fine
20:52:21 <Vorpal> I once got motion sickness in a vehicle, but that was by looking through binoculars from a moving car. Oh and once at an amusement park.
20:52:51 <Vorpal> elliott, so when will you get your driving license?
20:53:08 <fizzie> Our drinking age is 18 for anything, but I think there's some higher number for buying the good^Wstrong stuff?
20:53:44 <Taneb> I'm (relatively) fine on rollercoasters
20:53:49 <Taneb> Not on water rides, though
20:54:06 <Taneb> elliott's actually a chatbot
20:54:49 <kmc> elliott is actually a submarine
20:55:01 <Vorpal> Taneb, the one I got motion sickness from was one of those things where you are sitting in a smallish (5 people or so) spinning cup, mounted on a bigger spinning circular pad, mounted on a much larger spinning platform.
20:55:23 <Vorpal> think it was called the whirlwind or something like that
20:55:24 <Taneb> A waltzer? Those are fun :)
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20:55:32 <Vorpal> Taneb, no idea what that is
20:55:38 <kmc> mmmmmmm epicycles
20:55:57 <Vorpal> Taneb, googling suggest that is not a flat thing, this was
20:56:26 <impomatic> Hmmm... what next? "Room topic is: Good job! Level 1 completed. | pTShnJAmo3W0"
20:57:24 -!- heroux has joined.
20:57:30 <fizzie> Possibly one of those April Fool's puzzle things?
20:57:33 <fizzie> It's the season for it.
20:58:07 <Vorpal> oh yeah, have to put a warning on my door handle... Don't like being fooled when I'm half awake
20:58:35 <elliott> Vorpal's endless amounts of friends will be trying to fool him
20:58:41 <impomatic> Its the freenode thing... https://blog.freenode.net/2013/03/insert-witty-title-here
20:59:00 <Vorpal> elliott, actually probably just the family at that point
20:59:41 <Taneb> Vorpal doesn't have any friends, remember?
20:59:46 <kmc> the problem with cars is that they aren't scary enough
21:00:00 <Vorpal> Taneb, I do, only a handful though
21:00:05 <kmc> they kill over a million people per year, but they aren't scary like sharks and lightning strikes and terrorists
21:00:18 <Taneb> Vending machines kill more than sharks
21:00:19 <Vorpal> kmc, also that there are no good alternatives unless you live in a city
21:00:25 <fizzie> impomatic: Are there multiple "level 1"s? Because my second channel topic said ":Congratulations, welcome to level 2, [a different clue here]".
21:00:31 <kmc> seems like a p. good reason to live in a city
21:00:42 <Taneb> Vorpal, Hexham has decent trains and buses
21:00:50 <elliott> kmc: law whereby cars are required to look really evil
21:00:51 <Vorpal> kmc, for example, it would take almost 1.5 hours for me to go to work by bus. 20 minutes by car.
21:01:02 <Taneb> And is small enough you can walk right through it in half an hour
21:01:03 <Vorpal> Taneb, sure, so does the city I work in
21:01:15 <Vorpal> Taneb, but I live in a small town outside, just 20 000 inhabitants
21:01:16 <kmc> Vorpal: well another option is a taxi: a car driven by a professional driver, rather than by some random sleep deprived drunk asshole
21:01:17 <Taneb> Hexham has less than 12000 people
21:01:22 <kmc> however those are usually prohibitively expensive
21:01:28 <Vorpal> kmc, crazy expensive though
21:01:43 <kmc> i don't claim there should be no cars anywhere ever, but our cost:benefit calculation is way off
21:02:03 <fizzie> I can drive legally, and do it maybe once or twice a year, which might mean something w.r.t. the cost/benefit of doing the not-that-cheap driving schools and whatnot.
21:02:23 <kmc> one of the things in the USA is that the Republican party basically never wins any major city, so whenever Republicans are in power, or even in a position to obstruct things (which is basically always), there is no spending on non-car modes of transport
21:02:27 <Vorpal> kmc, also I would never drive drunk. I'm a teetotaler, so I'm never drunk anyway. And I make sure to go to bed early if I need to drive (rather than traveling with someone else in the family who is also going to work at the same time that day.
21:02:38 <kmc> even in deeply deeply Republican states, Democrats win the cities
21:02:41 <kmc> Vorpal: yeah, I know you won't
21:02:49 <kmc> problem is that other people will, and your safety depends on what they do too
21:03:02 <elliott> in the perfect utopia of sweden there is no crime
21:03:03 <Bike> http://www.invinsibleforce.com/ Behold.
21:03:08 <Vorpal> kmc, also people who are not drunk OR tired, yet are still idiots
21:03:30 <Bike> "The next coming of Time Cube" -- a giant ant who speaks to me in dreams
21:03:34 <impomatic> fizzie: I've no idea... I just looked at it now
21:04:12 <Vorpal> Bike, the fuck... The same guy?
21:04:24 <Taneb> I thought he died of cancer or something
21:04:28 <kmc> it's possible to do something dangerous every day and stay safe and vigilant -- many professions involve this -- but that's not how most people approach driving
21:04:53 <Vorpal> Bike, lunatic or someone making fun of the time cube guy?
21:04:56 <fizzie> impomatic: Well, uh; I went to the brainfuck-output channel, where the topic was "Welcome to level 1 of one of our quizzes, good luck. Staff won't answer your questions :) [clue]", and followed that to the place which says that thing about level 2.
21:04:58 <Bike> Probably a loonie.
21:05:26 <Vorpal> Bike, the design is actually slightly less terrible than the time cube guy
21:06:12 <elliott> fizzie: there's also another channel if you rot13 the other channel name it has
21:06:12 <Bike> I know what you thinking here... That a banana can't exist forever... thats right.
21:06:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, what are you talking about
21:06:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: <impomatic> Its the freenode thing... https://blog.freenode.net/2013/03/insert-witty-title-here
21:06:42 <fizzie> elliott: Yes, but I thought that was just some of their social channel.
21:06:46 <fizzie> The name sounded kinda familiar.
21:06:52 <elliott> no it has anothe thing about levels in the topic.
21:07:17 <fizzie> Mhm. Perhaps they have two branches.
21:07:20 <Taneb> Volume 6 is probably my least favourite Homestuck album
21:07:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, I like the captcha I got on that comment form on the page; "Having fuuuun"
21:07:31 <Taneb> But I like most of the songs
21:07:44 <Taneb> It's just Game Bro and I Don't Wanna Miss a Thing
21:09:00 <fizzie> elliott: Seems like there's a third "level 1" too, from the textual clue.
21:09:34 <fizzie> I'm not sure I can be bothered, I just felt that as a #esoteric member of good standing I had to run the brainfuck bit.
21:13:12 <kmc> i wonder how Rijndael's key schedule stacks up against other PRNGs with only 128 bits of state
21:13:30 <kmc> and whether, given hardware acceleration, it might be worth using in e.g. Monte Carlo simulations
21:14:12 -!- oerjan has set topic: Good job! Level 1 completed. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:15:39 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left).
21:15:52 <fizzie> oerjan: That'll make everyone joining hastily read through the entire channel logs in search of a clue.
21:19:20 -!- Extreme has joined.
21:19:26 <kmc> troll mode engaged
21:20:21 <HackEgo> EXTREME: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
21:20:26 <Fiora> kmc: it makes a good hash, right?
21:20:35 <kmc> Fiora: I added some more details on the key schedule and stuff: https://github.com/kmcallister/aesni-examples/commit/060c39b4a2dc8936416632e86d4ba1ee101fdb5c
21:20:38 <Fiora> so I'd figure it must have pretty okay randomness properties
21:20:39 <kmc> Fiora: i don't know
21:20:52 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
21:20:52 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
21:21:00 <Fiora> or oh. you just mean the key schedule, not the encryption itself?
21:21:03 <Fiora> I have noooo idea then
21:21:31 <Extreme> /topic says Level 1 completed. Level 1 of what? :S
21:21:51 <kmc> there are some pretty simple linear relationships between words of consecutive round keys
21:21:52 <Taneb> Level 1 of Esoteric, of course
21:21:56 <kmc> so that's probably not good for a PRNG
21:22:00 <kmc> even a non-cryptographic one
21:22:25 <kmc> also GitHub is doing something where the font gets huge when I resize the window
21:22:28 <kmc> anyone else see that?
21:22:29 -!- heroux has joined.
21:22:56 <kmc> fucking hipsters, I bet it looks fine on a Retina MacBook
21:23:40 <Fiora> also curiously it looks like aeskeygenassist is a good bit slower than aesenc on sandy bridge
21:23:47 <Fiora> but it's apparently fast on bulldozer (?) strange
21:24:07 <kmc> it makes sense that they wouldn't optimize it as much, I guess
21:24:29 <Fiora> aesenc/dec is 8/4 with 2 uops, aesimc is 2/2 with 2 uops, aeskeygenassist is 8/8 with 11 uops (!)
21:24:34 * Fiora figures the last is microcoded
21:24:46 <kmc> what are these numbers e.g. 8/4?
21:24:56 <Fiora> latency/inversethroughput
21:24:57 <Taneb> Fiora, have you seen 0x10c?
21:25:05 <Bike> the notch thing?
21:25:15 <Fiora> on the same chip, like, for reference
21:25:19 <kmc> in units of the processor clock ticks?
21:25:33 <Fiora> multiply: 3/1, add/bitmath: 1/0.33, simd multiply: 5/1, floating point add 3/1
21:25:40 <Taneb> It was a game Notch was making, but all that's happened is specs for a CPU and a simple character creator have emerged
21:26:06 <kmc> so like an AESENC finishes in 8 ticks, and you can retire one every 4 ticks?
21:26:42 <Taneb> But the CPU has ended up with a kinda big community?
21:27:01 <kmc> and an integer addition takes one tick and you can do 3 of them at once?
21:27:49 <Fiora> throughput is "how many can you do every clock if you run a bunch of independent instructions"
21:27:55 <Fiora> latency is "how many can you do per clock if each one depends on the last"
21:27:59 <Fiora> er, inverse of that
21:28:30 -!- Extreme has left ("Leaving").
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21:31:12 <oerjan> is this a good time to admit i had no idea what i was putting into the topic when i did so
21:31:34 <kmc> if it's a lie then we fight on that lie
21:31:43 <Fiora> so I guess for this throughput is probably the main thing that matters
21:32:08 <Fiora> sorry, I should have defined the notation before using it -_-
21:32:20 <kmc> it makes sense now :)
21:35:05 <Taneb> I've got a book published in early 2003 about web standards
21:35:30 <Taneb> It's all like "Most browsers don't support this yet, but IE 6 does! So does Mozilla!"
21:35:44 <Bike> I learned HTML from one of those.
21:35:45 <Lumpio-> <FONT SIZE=+8><H1><MARQUEE>Web Standards Committee</MARQUEE></H1></FONT>
21:36:25 <Fiora> kmc: also like, throughput is actually sort of a derived value of three things, the number of uops, which pipes it can use, and how often those pipes can issue
21:36:41 <Fiora> most things use one uop (or maybe two, like a load-execute instruction) so that's usually pretty simple
21:36:59 <Fiora> and most uops can issue every cycle (looks like AES is an exception though...)
21:37:10 <Fiora> so for most things it's just "which pipes can it use"
21:37:25 <Fiora> which can become an issue if you write a function that uses, say, almost only pipe-0 instructions
21:37:38 <Fiora> then it goes slow because it mostly can only issue one instruction per cycl
21:37:56 <Fiora> and the other pipes kind of sit around and play card games
21:38:05 <Taneb> XHTML 2 never really happened, did it
21:38:15 <elliott> Fiora: cpu-accelerated solitaire
21:38:21 <Fiora> sorry if I'm rambling <.<
21:38:25 -!- ssue_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:38:31 <kmc> not at all :)
21:38:45 <kmc> so is there a simple chart of which instructions use which pipes?
21:39:01 -!- iamcal_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:39:06 <Lumpio-> I wish XHTML happened .__.
21:39:07 <kmc> i assume there are lots of functional units for simple integer and floating point stuff, and fewer for rarer things?
21:39:16 <Lumpio-> Stupid HTML5 hipsters ruining the syntax
21:39:29 <Lumpio-> The new features are OK but the original syntax of HTML full of irregularities is awful.
21:40:15 <Fiora> http://www.agner.org/optimize/instruction_tables.pdf has everything but there's a few very simple pattrens, and I think intel/AMD documents often have diagrams of which units go with which pipe
21:42:15 <Fiora> like, SIMD-wise, I think on sandy bridge shuffles are p0 or p5, adds/simple arithmetic is p0/p5, bit ops go in all three (p0,p1,p5), multiply is p1, shifts are p1, float arith is p1, float mult is p0...
21:42:33 <Fiora> for some silly historical reason 0, 1, and 5 are the ALU pipes, and 2/3/4 are load/store <.<
21:43:06 <Fiora> it's a big design thing though, I think, like often on a new chip they'll be like "okay, we're going to budget this by having just one shuffle unit, and we're duplicate the float FMA unit, and..."
21:43:53 <Fiora> since "pipes 0 and 5 do shuffles" is kinda the same thing as "there's a shuffle unit stuffed into pipes 0 and 5"
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21:46:49 <elliott> I think we may be attracting people with this topic
21:47:47 <Fiora> (that was sarcasm right? :<)
21:48:03 <kmc> i think elliott was talking about the /topic
21:48:06 <oerjan> Fiora: i think i'm the one who is supposed to be sorry
21:48:07 <elliott> with people randomly joining and leaving
21:48:08 <Vorpal> elliott, we should totally add some bogus nonsense clue to the topic!
21:48:19 <elliott> cpu stuff is interesting!!
21:48:21 <kmc> kernel:[437469.828794] BUG: soft lockup - CPU#0 stuck for 22s! [cc1:4193]
21:48:26 <kmc> i should figure out why this keeps happening
21:48:33 <Fiora> it's interesting but I kill the chat whenever I mention it... ._.
21:48:39 <oerjan> elliott: i've only seen two plausible victims so far
21:48:41 <kmc> i don't think that's really true
21:48:54 <kmc> especially if madbr is around
21:49:06 <Vorpal> Fiora, what are you saying kills the chat?
21:49:18 <kmc> but it's something a lot of us find interesting
21:49:25 <kmc> I want to build a CPU out of relays some day
21:49:29 <kmc> just to see how fucking loud it is
21:49:30 <elliott> Fiora: well I don't really know anything about cpus
21:49:36 <elliott> so I can't really say anything of value while it is going on
21:50:03 <elliott> I mean probably if you didn't talk about it the channel would just be silent, it's not like it's always active
21:50:13 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:50:20 <kmc> and how much power it draws :)
21:50:21 <Vorpal> kmc, CPU and motherboard issues are always fun
21:50:24 <oerjan> Fiora: as long as no one has actual esolang matters to discuss, your subject cannot possibly be a problem.
21:50:56 <Vorpal> kmc, like I need to reload the emu10k1 driver every now and then in this computer. On my old computer that card worked just fine
21:51:19 <oerjan> kmc: fireworks-based computing
21:51:20 <Vorpal> it says "unhandled interrupt 17, disabling" after a day or so in dmesg
21:51:24 <shachaf> Fiora: Seems more interesting than esolang discussions, anyway.
21:51:31 * shachaf doesn't care about esolangs anymore.
21:52:21 <shachaf> I guess I did at one point.
21:53:40 <Vorpal> shachaf, why are you still here then
21:53:50 <Bike> An ancient curse.
21:54:00 <Bike> binding him to this wretched place
21:54:03 <Fiora> oerjan: it's just not much of a discussion if nobody responds <_>
21:54:19 -!- nooodl_ has set topic: Good job! Level 2 completed. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:54:35 <Bike> a monoscussion
21:55:14 <shachaf> does discussion stand for diagonal scussion
21:55:29 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
21:57:52 <kmc> diagonalogue
21:58:42 <Fiora> it feels kind of uncomfortable to just talk into the air if you know what I mean
21:59:02 -!- kmc has set topic: Good job! Level 2 completed. | H4sIAIuxWFECAzO2VDA1UDA0V0g2Vki0ULAwUUgDctMUjNNAZIqRgoG5QqohCBkZKqSZcgEACFgDWjAAAAA= | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:59:56 <Vorpal> kmc, what does it decode to
22:00:00 <Bike> probably just a hash of some nonsense
22:00:07 <Vorpal> given the = at the end
22:00:12 <Bike> Fiora: Yeah, but at least know it's interesting to read.
22:00:18 <kmc> it's base64 of gzip of some ascii hex digits that don't mean anything
22:01:13 -!- nooodl_ has set topic: Good job! Level 7 completed. | H4sIAIuxWFECAzO2VDA1UDA0V0g2Vki0ULAwUUgDctMUjNNAZIqRgoG5QqohCBkZKqSZcgEACFgDWjAAAAA= | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:01:32 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:01:35 <Vorpal> just keep the number reasonably low
22:02:10 <Vorpal> kmc, I presume the actual channels are set +s?
22:02:26 <Vorpal> elliott, you probably know that then
22:02:33 <kmc> when you presume you make a <pre> out of u and me
22:02:51 <Vorpal> kmc, I use markdown instead
22:06:55 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:08:02 -!- bashful has joined.
22:08:04 -!- oerjan has set topic: Good job! Level 7 completed. | H4sIAJ+zWFEAAzMxNDcwNzKzNEs2MjAxM0sDwmQjQwDmE3ufFgAAAA== | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:08:49 -!- heroux has joined.
22:09:21 <oerjan> i thought a more meaningful clue was in order.
22:10:04 -!- bashful has left ("Leaving").
22:10:30 <oerjan> maybe not the best timing
22:12:56 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:14:45 -!- oerjan has set topic: Good job! Level 7 completed. | H4sIADG1WFEAAzMxVDA3UDA3UjCzVDBLVjAyUDAxUzBLAyMg1xAAAdFVNCAAAAA= | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:14:58 -!- augur has joined.
22:16:31 <oerjan> (just added spaces between the hex digits)
22:17:53 -!- Taneb has joined.
22:18:54 <Taneb> I'm installing Trine 2
22:19:55 <zzo38> This server is in a different timezone, but still not April Fool day.
22:20:27 <Taneb> That doesn't change the fact I'm install Trine 2
22:20:42 <oerjan> zzo38: well it is here.
22:21:14 <oerjan> also i think mentioning it counts as a spoiler, not that you were the first.
22:21:44 <oerjan> no, that's every day, elliott. sheesh.
22:22:33 <Bike> Well that means it's this day too.
22:23:17 <kmc> Fiora: so bulldozer has AES-NI?
22:24:44 <Fiora> Yeah, I think so, agner lists the instruction at least
22:24:48 <zzo38> What is your opinions of my changes to Magic: the Gathering?
22:24:55 <Fiora> it has AVX too (but only 128-bit execution units)
22:26:01 <kmc> does that mean that 256-bit instructions have half the throughput?
22:27:39 <Fiora> Yeah, I think so, since it just splits them into two halves
22:27:53 <Fiora> it's the same thing the athlon 64 and core 1 and some other CPUs with 64-bit SSE units used to do
22:28:09 <kmc> wow i didn't know that they had only 64-bit SSE units
22:28:10 -!- iamcal_ has joined.
22:28:22 <kmc> life must be hard for authors of compilers and optimized cores for things
22:28:35 <kmc> you have to know not just what instructions are supported but whether they're actually fast or not
22:28:52 <Fiora> well, its not the end of the world, really? it just means sse won't be faster than mmx in most cases
22:28:55 <Fiora> not that it'll be horridly slow
22:28:57 <kmc> though I imagine one SSE instruction would still be a bit faster than two MMX instructions in many cases
22:29:09 <Fiora> plus you get twice the register room ^^
22:29:45 <Fiora> but performance characteristics can totally vary wildly between CPUs
22:29:48 <zzo38> I would suggest that a function is allowed to have a designation of what it is equivalent to (or is a subset of); this might help a bit, to allow compiler to do such thing if there are instructions for BCD arithmetic, and so on.
22:29:51 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: http://RetroProgramming.com).
22:30:46 <Fiora> like, if I remember right, the original core 2 had a 64-bit shuffle unit, so SSE shuffles were slower and longer latency
22:31:56 <Fiora> and, so like, an interesting thing about that was
22:32:07 <Fiora> pshufb, which shuffles one register arbitrarily, was 2/2
22:32:17 <Fiora> the punpck instructions, which interleave /two/ registers, were 4/2
22:32:52 <Fiora> so you could see how they had to add more latency because it had to combine two 128-bit registers through a 64-bit unit I think
22:33:15 <Fiora> I have no idea about the actual internals, but, it kind of feels like the numbers say something? <.<
22:33:17 <Vorpal> Fiora, what does it shuffle? bits or bytes?
22:33:51 <Fiora> bytes, I don't think there's any bit shuffle instruction :<
22:33:58 <Vorpal> also I get the feeling they keep adding crazy instructions that very few will use for several years
22:34:13 <Vorpal> it will be years before an instruction that is introduced today is widely used.
22:34:22 <Vorpal> so how is it a selling argument at all
22:34:26 <Vorpal> especially for windows users
22:34:34 <Fiora> I think you kind of have to add them at some point?
22:34:47 <Fiora> and um, why would windows be a problem
22:34:49 <kmc> Vorpal: when they add AES instructions for example, there's only a few crypto libraries on your system (hopefully)
22:34:49 <Vorpal> but they use it as a selling argument a lot of the time it feels like
22:35:16 <Vorpal> Fiora, because end users can't usually recompile the software to take advantage of the new features
22:35:16 <kmc> i think there was a pretty big push by Intel back in the day to get people to use MMX, since it was supposed to be a big thing differentiating them from AMD and Cyrix
22:35:26 <Fiora> but compilers don't use simd instructions anyways really...
22:35:33 <kmc> and most people run binary linux distros
22:35:46 <zzo38> I think they overcomplicated it
22:35:51 <kmc> certainly I would expect high end games to utilize practically every instruction supported by any existing chip
22:35:52 <Vorpal> Fiora, gcc does for float and double on x86-64, but that is it
22:35:53 <zzo38> They even removed some things
22:35:57 <kmc> at least in the era when CPU performance ruled
22:36:17 <zzo38> Such as BCD arithmetic is not use in 64-bits mode; and I would use that more.
22:36:19 <Fiora> I don't think autovectorization is limited to floating point but...
22:36:35 <Vorpal> Fiora, but that doesn't happen to such a large degree
22:36:41 <Fiora> do you mean like, where they use SSE for scalar math (instead of x87)?
22:36:41 <kmc> well SSE is also the standard FPU on x86_64, even if it's not autovectorized
22:36:47 <zzo38> I also don't want to use something that is only Intel or only AMD since it is better using the instruction compatible with all of them, instead.
22:36:52 <Fiora> that's kind of different though, that's scalar stuff
22:37:01 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:37:09 <Vorpal> Fiora, it is still the most widespread use of the SSE registers
22:37:37 <Vorpal> because auto-vectorization doesn't happen all that much on most code I turned on the debug output on it for
22:38:11 <Vorpal> that was a couple of years ago though
22:38:16 <Vorpal> so things could have changed
22:38:58 -!- heroux has joined.
22:39:45 <Vorpal> whatever happened to 3DNow btw?
22:40:22 <Fiora> I think it was largely obsoleted by SSE
22:40:31 <Fiora> I heard it was useful at the time, since there was no simd float stuff
22:40:49 <Fiora> it also added 'pavgusb' before intel added 'pavgb' in iSSE apparently
22:42:13 <Vorpal> also what does 'pavgb' do
22:43:30 <Fiora> iSSE is I think a term for the integer instructions added in SSE (which were actually for MMX registers)
22:44:08 <Vorpal> Fiora, didn't 3DNow or the extended version of it have instructions for matrix multiplication too?
22:44:10 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:45:01 <Fiora> I don't know, I've literally never used it >_<
22:46:06 <Vorpal> Fiora, why do you code asm anyway?
22:46:08 -!- heroux has joined.
22:46:16 <kmc> intel should send you a merit badge if you manage to use every instruction in one program
22:48:17 <Fiora> umm because it's (part of) my job and because it's really fun
22:48:20 <Sgeo> I've asked this before, but don't remember any answer.
22:48:27 <Sgeo> Is learning ASM the best way to learn about CPUs?
22:48:37 <Fiora> kmc: there is like, this amazing feeling of satisfaction when I find a way to use a seemingly useless, pointless instruction
22:48:52 <kmc> Sgeo: that depends what you mean by "learn about CPUs"
22:48:55 <Fiora> I am like "yeeeeesssss I found a way to use this useless thing"
22:49:09 <kmc> it won't teach you that much about how CPUs are implemented internally, although it's a necessary prerequisite
22:49:09 <Koen_> I seem to recall someone stating that asm was following old CPUs' logic, and wasn't close to modern CPUs?
22:49:31 <kmc> Sgeo: I really strongly recommend MIT's course 6.004, in which you design a simple RISC CPU at the logic gate level, as well as write some programs for it
22:49:42 <kmc> you can find the materials online
22:49:51 <kmc> including the simulator program which is really fun to play with
22:50:02 <Sgeo> kmc, that's on OpenCourseWare?
22:50:12 <kmc> i don't know if the bit on OCW specifically is the useful bit
22:50:17 <kmc> just google mit 6.004
22:50:25 <Fiora> yeah, for learning how CPUs actually work an architecture course that covers something like the classic risc pipeline and stuf fmight be a better start
22:50:35 <Vorpal> <Fiora> umm because it's (part of) my job and because it's really fun <-- what is your job?
22:51:08 <kmc> Sgeo: http://6004.mit.edu/
22:51:38 <elliott> fiora's job is teaching #esoteric
22:51:41 <kmc> i think OCW has kind of "packaged" versions of courses, that are often a few years old, but you can also just find the website that the current students use, and it's usually accessible
22:51:45 <Fiora> I am not a good teacher ._.
22:51:57 <Bike> you're not well paid for your job, though, so it works out.
22:52:29 <kmc> Koen_: yeah I would agree with that. certainly the instruction set is just another abstract language and doesn't correspond directly to what's happening at the physical level
22:52:31 <Bike> (your #esoteric job i mean, not that "side thing" you do "in the real world")
22:52:39 <Fiora> Vorpal: um, if you're asking like "why asm", that's kind of the only real way to write SIMD code, so...
22:52:46 <Bike> (in which i assume you make loadsamoney)
22:52:51 <kmc> it hides details like caching, virtual memory, out of order execution, register renaming, branch prediction, etc.
22:52:56 <fizzie> There was that one computing course with a "from X to Y"-style name that went from reasonably low to reasonably high. Or maybe it's just that?
22:53:14 <Vorpal> Fiora, I'm asking "why manual SIMD writing"
22:53:22 <kmc> Koen_: some CPUs like the Transmeta Crusoe actually compile the machine code to a totally different internal architecture before executing it
22:53:48 <kmc> people use that as an analogy for current Intel / AMD processors as well
22:53:51 <Vorpal> Fiora, are you implementing codecs? Compilers?
22:53:58 <Koen_> do some people program directly in that totally different internal architecture?
22:53:59 <Bike> did anyone ever use crusoe
22:54:00 <Vorpal> Fiora, that is the level I'm curious on
22:54:06 <kmc> and while it's not really accurate, it's less likely to lead you astray than pretending that each instruction is executed directly on some hardware
22:54:13 <kmc> Koen_: Transmeta engineers did
22:54:21 <kmc> they never released the specs but it's been reverse engineered to some degree
22:54:27 * Fiora will decline to answer that question <.<
22:54:28 <Bike> errrr wrong question
22:55:06 <elliott> Fiora works at Transmeta. this is because Fiora is literally past Linus Torvalds.
22:55:34 <Bike> torvalds is surprisingly into touhou
22:55:41 <kmc> Bike: i brought it up in another channel and a few people said they'd owned machines with crusoe processors
22:56:04 <Bike> really, huh. i thought it never got used much, i never would have heard of it if not for linux
22:56:25 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmeta_Crusoe#Products
22:56:48 <kmc> oh the OQO used it
22:56:51 <kmc> i wonder if those are cheap yet
22:56:58 <kmc> they're kind of cute
22:57:20 <kmc> to the ebay
22:58:21 <Bike> the hell, a tablet in 1990
22:58:21 <kmc> looks like so :)
22:58:46 <kmc> contrary to popular belief, Apple did not invent the idea of a smartphone or a tablet
22:59:01 * Bike read an entire book on the PARC laptop once, thankyouverymuch
22:59:36 * kmc owned a Windows smartphone in 2006... it was painfully bad
23:00:16 <kmc> the innovation of the iPhone wasn't apps (took them a year to add that) or good data connectivity (same) but just that it had a web browser that wasn't awful
23:00:43 <Bike> i believe that's how the bolsheviks took over russia as well
23:00:58 <Vorpal> by a web browser that wasn't awful?
23:01:02 <kmc> at the time the iPhone came out, i had a Nokia N800
23:01:11 <Bike> yes. the left SRs browser was a notoriously awful netscape sclone
23:01:13 <kmc> which also had a browser approaching non-awful
23:01:18 <kmc> but wasn't a phone
23:01:41 <Bike> the kulaks mainly stuck with IE and so were rightfully put to death by the cheka
23:02:04 <Vorpal> Bike, this is so going into the quotes list
23:02:23 <Vorpal> if only I remembered the command
23:02:40 <kmc> i'll do it
23:02:52 <Bike> btw did you know some of the bolshevik newspapers were crazy
23:02:55 <Bike> "Without mercy, without sparing, we will kill our enemies in scores of hundreds. Let them be thousands; let them drown themselves in their own blood. For the blood of Lenin and Uritsky, Zinovief and Volodarski, let there be floods of the blood of the bourgeois - more blood, as much as possible."
23:03:00 <kmc> `addquote <kmc> the innovation of the iPhone was... just that it had a web browser that wasn't awful
23:03:04 <HackEgo> 1003) <kmc> the innovation of the iPhone was... just that it had a web browser that wasn't awful
23:03:06 <kmc> didn't mean to
23:03:08 <kmc> `delquote 1003
23:03:13 <HackEgo> *poof* <kmc> the innovation of the iPhone was... just that it had a web browser that wasn't awful
23:03:29 <kmc> `addquote <kmc> the innovation of the iPhone was... just that it had a web browser that wasn't awful <Bike> i believe that's how the bolsheviks took over russia as well <Bike> the kulaks mainly stuck with IE and so were rightfully put to death by the cheka
23:03:32 <Vorpal> Bike, I like to think you remember that off the top of your head
23:03:33 <HackEgo> 1003) <kmc> the innovation of the iPhone was... just that it had a web browser that wasn't awful <Bike> i believe that's how the bolsheviks took over russia as well <Bike> the kulaks mainly stuck with IE and so were rightfully put to death by the cheka
23:03:39 <kmc> hm do I fix my own space-typo
23:03:41 <kmc> `delquote 1003
23:03:45 <HackEgo> *poof* <kmc> the innovation of the iPhone was... just that it had a web browser that wasn't awful <Bike> i believe that's how the bolsheviks took over russia as well <Bike> the kulaks mainly stuck with IE and so were rightfully put to death by the cheka
23:03:50 <Bike> Vorpal: i also have rosseau's speeches memorized
23:03:57 <kmc> `addquote <kmc> the innovation of the iPhone was... just that it had a web browser that wasn't awful <Bike> i believe that's how the bolsheviks took over russia as well <Bike> the kulaks mainly stuck with IE and so were rightfully put to death by the cheka
23:04:00 <HackEgo> 1003) <kmc> the innovation of the iPhone was... just that it had a web browser that wasn't awful <Bike> i believe that's how the bolsheviks took over russia as well <Bike> the kulaks mainly stuck with IE and so were rightfully put to death by the cheka
23:04:06 <Vorpal> Bike, I'm not even sure I remember who that is
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23:04:27 <Bike> I meant Robespierre.
23:04:47 <Vorpal> is that true? That you have them memorized?
23:04:53 <kmc> how did lenin die anyway
23:05:14 <kmc> "When already sick, Lenin remembered that, since 1917, he had only rested twice"
23:05:22 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
23:05:23 <Bike> He ot partly assassinated like a dozen times and then got sick, I think.
23:05:38 <kmc> he had like 3 strokes and maybe syphillis
23:05:43 <elliott> like his ears got assassinated
23:05:57 <Bike> elliott: yeah, his jaw got fucked up and such
23:06:23 <elliott> then they assassinated... his MIND
23:06:33 <kmc> elliott: your mind is the scene of the crime
23:07:03 <Bike> elliott: p. sure that's what some orthodox marxists actually believe
23:07:34 <Bike> ironically marxism doesn't form a basis unless you include... i don't know where i'm going here
23:08:00 <kmc> i ate a super greasy meal and now there is grease all over my hands and computers #fail
23:08:06 <shachaf> do marxists believe in the axiom of choice
23:08:50 <Bike> no because the space of capitalism doesn't form a basis, or something
23:09:46 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:10:12 -!- augur has joined.
23:10:13 <shachaf> oh no kmc has been overcome with the twitter
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23:12:43 <shachaf> why don't people wave their hats anymore
23:12:48 <shachaf> why don't people wear hats anymore
23:12:51 <Bike> http://www.cofault.com/2010/01/hunt-for-addictive-monster.html oh, axiom of choice
23:13:01 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Sorry about this, I know it's a bit silly.
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23:13:19 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Your mind just hasn't been the same since the electro-shock, has it?
23:13:37 <shachaf> lambdabot: No, that's your mind.
23:13:44 <shachaf> And electro-shock means "the time we lost all the quotes" hth.
23:13:47 -!- Vacation9 has joined.
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23:15:03 <shachaf> Bike: do you know the puzzle with the two periodic functions whose sum is the identity function
23:15:11 <Bike> I've heard of it.
23:17:14 -!- Vacation9 has joined.
23:17:15 <nooodl_> f(x) = sin(x), g(x) = 1-sin(x)
23:18:04 <shachaf> that's not very the identity
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23:18:35 <elliott> i like how people seriously think this is the channel
23:18:37 <Bike> x-sin and sin. but I remember the puzzle being more interesting. I think one of the periods was in a different direction?
23:19:01 <shachaf> elliott: "this is the channel"?
23:19:01 <Bike> wait. these people actually think this is... wow.
23:19:03 <elliott> guys I'm pretty sure freenode knows better than to let the channels show up in /list.
23:19:08 <shachaf> Bike: x-sin(x) isn't periodic
23:19:09 <Bike> shachaf: for the freenode thing
23:19:25 <Bike> And oh yeah, it's not.
23:19:37 <oerjan> <shachaf> why don't people wear hats anymore <-- http://choosemyhat.com/
23:19:57 <Bike> These are gonna be some wacky functions aren't they
23:20:07 <Sgeo> choose my hat, choose my hat, ... wow I fail at songs
23:20:23 <Bike> You figured it out.
23:20:28 <nooodl_> urgh how is this even possible,
23:20:49 <Bike> If it's periodic it can't be increasing, can it...? hm
23:20:59 <nooodl_> if f has period m, and g has period n, then f+g has period mn, doesn't it
23:21:11 -!- fwilson|solving has left ("Konversation terminated!").
23:21:14 <Bike> This is the next step of the puzzle fwilson|solving. You need to help us with this, and we'll tell you which channel is next.
23:21:25 <Bike> NOW YOU'LL NEVER FIND THE TREASURE
23:21:29 <Sgeo> Gregor, you look like someone I know IRL
23:21:37 <shachaf> well they're ot going to be continuous functions
23:21:54 <elliott> all functions are continuous
23:22:02 <Bike> Go back to your hole, elliott.
23:22:21 <shachaf> elliott: That's a constructivist sort of thing to say... But you don't seem very constructive to me!
23:22:29 <shachaf> (the joke is that you're not helping)
23:22:30 <Bike> Hm, maybe if one of the functions takes on all values within an interval
23:22:33 * elliott waves a little sign saying "EXCLUDE THE MIDDLE"
23:22:41 <Bike> the monster function took on all values within /any/ interval but that's probably not necessary
23:22:44 <elliott> don't not include the middle.
23:22:44 <Bike> elliott: TRAITOR
23:23:35 <elliott> guys what stupid thing should i do to the wiki for stupid day
23:24:02 <Vorpal> elliott, you could surprise everyone by NOT doing anything
23:24:11 <elliott> that is what I do every day of the year
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23:24:24 <Vorpal> elliott, it is surprising on the stupid day though
23:24:41 <elliott> unfortunately the ideal april fools requires me to code PHP and is now over a year late
23:24:54 <nooodl_> body { -webkit-transform: rotate(0.2deg); }
23:24:58 <Vorpal> oh? what would that have been?
23:25:11 <elliott> nooodl_: I already flipped the wiki layout (but not the text) last april 1
23:25:13 -!- Ojel has joined.
23:25:16 <elliott> Vorpal: it's secret, obviously
23:25:16 <Vorpal> elliott, you could make it play nyancat automatically in the background
23:25:24 <elliott> but if anyone really wants to know then /msg me
23:25:40 <elliott> well I'll just feature deadfish for a start.
23:25:54 -!- _Paul has joined.
23:26:17 <Vorpal> elliott, I messaged you as you said
23:26:25 -!- conehead has joined.
23:26:51 <oerjan> <nooodl_> if f has period m, and g has period n, then f+g has period mn, doesn't it <-- not unless m and n are integers, in which case lcm(m,n) also works. in fact i'm pretty sure this puzzle requires there to be no common period, i.e. m/n irrational.
23:27:18 <elliott> Ojel: _Paul: conehead: I suspect you all of being terrible at puzzles
23:28:07 <shachaf> body { text-transform: capitalize; }
23:28:18 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean what I think you mean?
23:28:21 <Bike> Alright y'all, ready for the next stage of the puzzle?
23:28:26 <conehead> Probably going to stay here though; didn't realize there was a channel for esoteric langs
23:28:26 <Ojel> stuck on The main character, a kid, in this classic music video was mocked for being ‘this’. | Hint: s/classic/old/ | The this in quotes is the answer we are looking for. | The answer is not in the lyrics of the song.]
23:28:33 <Bike> It's easy. Just name a pair of periodic functions that sum to the identity function.
23:28:41 <Bike> So easy. Here's a hint: monoids.
23:28:52 <Vorpal> Bike, oh yeah, of course
23:28:58 <Vorpal> why didn't I think of that
23:29:29 <Bike> The periods will probably be incommenurable, like oerjan said.
23:29:42 -!- Ojel has left.
23:29:43 <shachaf> maybe i should mislead you all a bit
23:29:51 <shachaf> throw in a few red herrings
23:30:01 -!- _Paul has left ("leaving").
23:30:06 <Bike> Ojel's too chicken to continue the puzzle.
23:30:09 <Bike> It's up to you, conehead.
23:32:43 <conehead> brb getting to that haskell section on monoids to solve your fake hint
23:33:15 <fizzie> How on earth do people even end up on #esoteric on the first place? (Some spamming on the actual puzzle channels?)
23:33:17 <Vorpal> conehead, oh, you realized we were trolling ;P
23:33:41 <fizzie> I guess it could be just a /list.
23:33:52 <fizzie> Not that I suppose any of the others are non-+s.
23:33:53 <conehead> I'm not sure how Ojel got to this channel; I'll ask him
23:34:06 <Vorpal> conehead, the real hint is in the topic
23:34:14 <Vorpal> see that random-looking string? yeah
23:34:37 <conehead> Oh, so this is part of a legitimate track?
23:34:48 <shachaf> you can see oerjan's handiwork
23:34:50 <Vorpal> conehead, but it is fun trolling people
23:35:00 <elliott> oerjan: kick Vorpal for lying
23:35:03 <shachaf> ignore both elliott and Vorpal
23:35:18 <shachaf> (this has nothing to do with the puzzle -- it'll just make your life better)
23:35:31 <Vorpal> shachaf, that is actually true
23:35:46 <Vorpal> shachaf, in fact, ignoring most people will make your life better
23:36:11 <shachaf> What about ignoring ddarius? That'll make your life worse.
23:36:25 <Vorpal> shachaf, who on earth is that?
23:36:46 <Vorpal> shachaf, I can't. You said I should ignore him
23:36:53 <Vorpal> now you are contracting yourself
23:37:25 <Vorpal> well I better ignore that advice too then
23:37:26 <shachaf> Also I said it while not capitaliszing my sentence.
23:37:33 <shachaf> Which means I didn't mean it.
23:37:43 <Vorpal> shachaf, oh I didn't know that rule
23:38:03 <Vorpal> shachaf, "<shachaf> You should ignore me too." you did capitalize though
23:38:49 <Vorpal> shachaf, so does that mean you did mean it?
23:38:56 <Vorpal> shachaf, I do use xchat yes, why?
23:39:06 <shachaf> Because you say "NICK, " instead of "NICK: "
23:39:16 <shachaf> You should switch it to "NICK: ". There's a configuration option somewhere.
23:39:23 <fizzie> I used to prefix "nick;", what does that make me?
23:39:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, what software had that as a default?
23:40:00 <Vorpal> or did you just do it because why not
23:40:14 <fizzie> Vorpal: Possibly none. Possibly some ircII script. Possibly I was doing it manually. Not entirely certain.
23:40:26 <Vorpal> argh, my compose key is broken
23:40:37 <fizzie> It's just a /set completion_char ; away from irssi, though.
23:40:55 <elliott> happy new featured language day
23:41:01 <Vorpal> shachaf# is this better?
23:41:31 <fizzie> elliott: It'd not a brainfuck derivative. I herd a rumur it was gunna. :/
23:41:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, so there is the surprise of the day for you
23:41:50 <elliott> fizzie: I think you'll find it's better
23:42:38 <fizzie> Well, I mean, it's fishy.
23:43:13 <Vorpal> elliott, *why* is there an xkcd variant of deadfish listed
23:43:20 <Vorpal> when did that happen in xkcd
23:47:08 <elliott> nooodl_: btw that -webkit-transform doesn't work
23:47:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: No, no, it's the other way around. For æsthetic reasons the xkcd variant, with the different letters, was created; then retroactively the comic was named after it.
23:47:35 <elliott> oh maybe that's just mediawiki
23:52:34 <oerjan> <shachaf> "AAAAA=" <-- i did _not_ put that in on purpose mind you
23:53:43 <Vorpal> conehead, you should totally decode the hint in our topic though
23:55:08 <conehead> Not sure what to make of it (assuming it is actually decodable)
23:55:08 <oerjan> <Vorpal> elliott, *why* is there an xkcd variant of deadfish listed <-- i think that was just someone trolling us, but zzo38 later gave that variant a purpose in life
23:55:18 <HackEgo> conehead: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:55:52 <Vorpal> conehead, it is decodable, just useless to you to decode. I managed it straight away when someone put it in the topic though
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23:58:06 <oerjan> well it's trivial as long as you recognize each encoding in the path
23:58:29 <nooga> FireFly: what's #elliottcable about?
23:58:48 <fizzie> oerjan: Fortunately, you can just use magic.
23:59:14 <oerjan> fizzie: ...there's a program for it?
23:59:26 <oerjan> well file might i guess
23:59:31 <nooga> elliott: about elliott ?