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02:03:07 <shachaf> mniip: So I don't think the differential form sense of "dx" is compatible with the Leibniz notation sense.
02:03:20 <shachaf> I've been trying to figure out how the latter works for a while and I'm still not sure, but I'm pretty sure it's different.
02:03:47 <mniip> shachaf, well are you familiar with integrals of second kind
02:03:57 <mniip> \int ( \vec F, \vec dr )
02:04:10 <mniip> aka \int Fx dx + Fy dy + Fz dz ...
02:04:31 <mniip> that's kind of the stuff
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02:25:00 <mniip> shachaf, smooth manifolds and analysis on them
02:25:50 <mniip> chapters 3 and 4 just covered tangent and cotangent bundles, and a differential of a function as a cotangent bundle section (covector field)
02:26:25 <mniip> hoping to understand integration on manifolds one day
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02:41:47 <mniip> shachaf, it's kind of interesting how there's like a triple contravariance at play when we're considering cotangent spaces
02:42:43 <mniip> you have your manifold M and then there's smooth functions M -> R, and then there's derivations (M -> R) -> R that are tangent vectors
02:43:00 <mniip> then cotangent vectors are the dual of that, i.e linear functionals of type ((M -> R) -> R) -> R
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02:44:35 <mniip> so 'dx' is the tangent covector (linear functional) that maps d/dx (a tangent vector) to 1, and all other basis vectors to 0
02:45:15 <mniip> and 'd/dx' is a vector that computes the derivative of a function across the local 'x' coordinate
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03:49:31 <oerjan> . o O ( their network access seems a bit random )
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04:47:57 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56203&oldid=55729 * A * (+672)
04:48:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:Number Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56204&oldid=54353 * Challenger5 * (+260) /* Another Python Interpreter */ new section
04:50:33 -!- variable has joined.
04:51:02 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56205&oldid=56203 * A * (+39) /* Stuck */
04:52:23 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56206&oldid=56205 * A * (+63) /* Stuck */
04:56:03 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56207&oldid=56206 * A * (+288) /* Aha! */
04:57:08 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56208&oldid=56207 * A * (+10) /* Step 1 (Overflow Control) */
04:57:20 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56209&oldid=56208 * A * (+9) /* Step 2 (Array I/O) */
04:57:36 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56210&oldid=56209 * A * (+0) /* Step 2 (Array I/O)(CMD = 6) */
04:57:52 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56211&oldid=56210 * A * (+9) /* Step 3 (Combine < and +) */
04:58:03 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56212&oldid=56211 * A * (+9) /* Step 4 (Jump command) */
04:58:20 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56213&oldid=56212 * A * (+9) /* Step 5 (Putting loop on array) */
05:03:16 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56214&oldid=56213 * A * (+299) /* Step 5 (Putting loop on array) (CMD = 2) */
05:03:49 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56215&oldid=56214 * A * (+0) /* Step 6 (Aha! Using current cell) (CMD = 1) */
05:04:43 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56216&oldid=56215 * A * (+71) /* Step 6 (Aha! Using current cell) (CMD = 1) */
05:05:18 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56217&oldid=56216 * A * (-38) /* Step 5 (Putting loop on array) (CMD = 2) */
05:05:39 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56218&oldid=56217 * A * (+38) /* Step 6 (Aha! Using current cell) (CMD = 1) */
05:05:55 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56219&oldid=56218 * A * (-67) /* Stuck */
05:10:08 <esowiki> [[BF instruction extension]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56220 * A * (+184) Created page with "Our goal is to extend the instructions of Brainf*ck as far as possible. Anything that you thought of could be one of the instructions. We'll atart with the standard commands:..."
05:10:47 <esowiki> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56221&oldid=55852 * A * (+31)
05:11:29 <esowiki> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56222&oldid=56221 * A * (+0)
05:11:45 <esowiki> [[BF instruction extension]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56223&oldid=56220 * A * (+0)
05:13:04 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56224&oldid=56194 * A * (+31) /* See also */
05:15:54 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56225 * Asdf * (+60) Created page with "I allow you to use my inplementation in C++. --[[User:Asdf]]"
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05:23:56 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56226&oldid=56225 * A * (+122)
05:23:56 <oerjan> yeah, they're _so_ two different people.
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05:27:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Help]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56227&oldid=43623 * A * (+214) /* When to do stuff */
05:30:31 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Help]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56228&oldid=56227 * Oerjan * (-214) Undo revision 56227 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) (You know this wiki is small enough that all pages are highly visible, right?)
05:31:25 <oerjan> i seem to have failed at not being sarcastic, despite already closing one editing tab
05:34:56 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56229&oldid=56219 * Oerjan * (-31) Hierarch those sections
05:37:04 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56230&oldid=55571 * A * (+63) /* Ideas for Names */
05:40:40 <esowiki> [[Pizza]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56231 * A * (+776) Created page with "==Overview== '''Pizza''' is a joke programming language created by Nicholas Smith as a glitch to the BBC question about false programming language on 1 July 2018. It contains..."
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06:28:26 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56232&oldid=56224 * A * (+40) /* See also */
06:29:40 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck Contest]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56233 * A * (+132) Created page with "Hi! This is a Brainfuck Contest page. If you want to have a contest here, then go for it! ==Contest 1== Link:[[Brainfuck Contest 1]]"
06:32:52 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck Contest 1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56234 * A * (+314) Created page with "Welcome to my test contest! ==Rule== This is a golf contest. Anyone with the shortest code wins. ==Addition program== Indeed, we have to test it. If you have an answer, just g..."
06:33:38 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck Contest 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56235&oldid=56234 * A * (+13)
06:35:39 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck Contest]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56236&oldid=56233 * A * (+43) /* Contest 1 */
06:38:53 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck Contest 2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56237 * A * (+420) Created page with "Welcome to my test contest! ==Rule== This is a golf contest. Anyone with the shortest code wins. ==Addition program== Indeed, we have to test it. If you have an answer, just g..."
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08:34:50 <esowiki> [[BackTurn]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56238 * Zzo38 * (+940) Created page with "[[Category:Languages]][[Category:Unimplemented]][[Category:2018]][[Category:Reversible computing]][[Category:Two-dimensional languages]][[Category:Self-modifying]] BackTurn is..."
08:35:31 <zzo38> Please look at the new [[BackTurn]] program language see if it is good or else what other comment/question/complaint.
08:39:56 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56239&oldid=56197 * Zzo38 * (+44) Add a comment to the MIX implementation about modifications for binary computers
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10:11:39 <esowiki> [[Array Changer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56240 * A * (+17234) Created page with "Array Changer is a very simple language. == State Table == {| class="wikitable" ! State || Next State On 0 || Next State On 1 |- | <code>0x00</code> || <code>0x2B</code> || <c..."
10:13:15 <esowiki> [[Array Changer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56241&oldid=56240 * A * (+0)
10:13:38 <esowiki> [[Array Changer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56242&oldid=56241 * A * (+0)
10:13:47 <esowiki> [[Array Changer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56243&oldid=56242 * A * (+0)
10:13:48 <esowiki> [[Array Changer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56244&oldid=56243 * A * (+0)
10:19:48 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck---]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56245 * A * (+1704) Created page with "'''Brainfuck---''' is a language made by [[User:A|User:A]] and is a downgraded version of [[brainfuck--]], that uses only four instructions. == History == Brainfuck-- was c..."
10:21:24 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck---]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56246&oldid=56245 * A * (-27)
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10:38:56 <esowiki> [[Asd]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56247 * A * (+1144) Created page with "'''asd''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:A]] which makes [[123]]'s syntax simpler. == Instructions == The pointer begins at location 0. The progra..."
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11:06:33 <esowiki> [[Asd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56248&oldid=56247 * A * (-26) /* Instructions */
11:07:38 <esowiki> [[Asd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56249&oldid=56248 * A * (-26) /* Instructions */
11:08:00 <esowiki> [[Asd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56250&oldid=56249 * A * (+12) /* Instructions */
11:11:44 <esowiki> [[Asd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56251&oldid=56250 * A * (+32) /* Instructions */
11:13:10 <esowiki> [[Asd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56252&oldid=56251 * A * (-39) /* Instructions */
11:16:18 <esowiki> [[Asd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56253&oldid=56252 * A * (-13) /* Instructions */
11:17:20 <esowiki> [[Asd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56254&oldid=56253 * A * (-5) /* Instructions */
11:28:39 <esowiki> [[Asd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56255&oldid=56254 * A * (-32) /* Instructions */
11:29:12 <esowiki> [[Asd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56256&oldid=56255 * A * (+34) /* Instructions */
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11:33:49 <esowiki> [[Asd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56257&oldid=56256 * A * (-274) /* Instructions */
11:35:25 <esowiki> [[Asd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56258&oldid=56257 * A * (-49) /* Examples */
11:35:37 <esowiki> [[Asd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56259&oldid=56258 * A * (+0) /* Instructions */
11:38:53 <esowiki> [[Asd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56260&oldid=56259 * A * (+47) /* Instructions */
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11:43:39 <esowiki> [[Asd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56261&oldid=56260 * A * (-175)
11:48:23 <esowiki> [[Ja]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56262 * A * (+464) Created page with "'''ja''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by A. == Instructions == {| class="wikitable" ! Instruction || Description |- | <code>j</code> || jump to cell numbe..."
11:48:51 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56263&oldid=56044 * A * (+34) /* Survey */
11:50:19 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56264&oldid=56263 * A * (+52) /* Survey */
11:50:29 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56265&oldid=56264 * A * (+0) /* Survey */
12:01:45 <esowiki> [[Ja]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56266&oldid=56262 * A * (+3) /* Instructions */
12:02:31 <esowiki> [[Ja]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56267&oldid=56266 * A * (+34) /* Instructions */
12:09:18 <esowiki> [[Ja]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56268&oldid=56267 * A * (+88) /* Example (Infinite Loop) */
12:10:07 <esowiki> [[Ja]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56269&oldid=56268 * A * (+9)
12:12:40 <esowiki> [[Ja]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56270&oldid=56269 * A * (-2) /* Instructions */
12:13:55 <esowiki> [[Ja]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56271&oldid=56270 * A * (+26) /* Example (Infinite Loop) */
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12:37:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Ja]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56272 * BoutonIA * (+578) Create the page and add Interpreter
12:41:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Ja]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56273&oldid=56272 * BoutonIA * (+93)
12:43:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:Ja]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56274&oldid=56273 * BoutonIA * (-70)
12:45:32 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56275&oldid=56229 * A * (-8) /* Iamcalledbob's attempt */
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14:06:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:Ja]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56276&oldid=56274 * BoutonIA * (+11)
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14:59:44 <esowiki> [[FuckPack]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56277 * A * (+124) Created page with "FuckPack is Brainfuck, but with these other commands: ==Jump Commands== J Jump to the cell id numbered as the current bit."
15:00:10 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck extensions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56278&oldid=54927 * A * (+14)
15:01:10 <esowiki> [[FuckPack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56279&oldid=56277 * A * (+73) /* Jump Commands */
15:01:28 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck extensions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56280&oldid=56278 * A * (+14)
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18:56:07 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56281&oldid=56147 * Rdebath * (-9) Repair broken list (and exaggeration)
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22:12:34 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck Contest 1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56282&oldid=56235 * Plokmijnuhby * (+26) /* Output */
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00:36:18 * oerjan hates it when he forgets to change the zoom level back before opening a heap of tabs
00:40:43 <zzo38> Can you use a privileged JavaScript code to affect multiple tabs at once?
00:43:51 <zzo38> They now added window functions into SQLite (although the version with window functions is not yet released), although, it says can only be used with SELECT, and, I wanted to use window functions with UPDATE, too.
00:52:03 <esowiki> [[Ja]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56283&oldid=56271 * Oerjan * (+279) Not convinced yet
00:54:39 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56284&oldid=56275 * Oerjan * (+7) These really shouldn't all be top level sections.
00:55:40 <oerjan> the specification of ja is a bit unclear on j, i think.
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01:39:58 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56285&oldid=56265 * Oerjan * (-86) It's not clearly TC yet
01:57:27 <esowiki> [[BackTurn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56286&oldid=56238 * Zzo38 * (+29)
02:01:32 <zzo38> Yes, it is unclear to me too
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02:31:12 <esowiki> [[BackTurn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56287&oldid=56286 * Zzo38 * (+612)
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02:49:19 <zzo38> BackTurn level 1 should be able to sufficient for BackFlip-equivalent because I have managed to make flipping mirrors from two rotators, and fixed mirrors from two fixed mirrors, making tiled of 3x3 blocks in both cases. However, which pattern is needed depends on what else in the same row/column.
03:07:24 <zzo38> There is the mention in [[Talk:BackFlip]] of why arrows are unnecessary.
03:08:14 <zzo38> "Having flipping mirrors and any one of: symbols always rebounding, symbols with a direction which always rebounds, fixed mirrors, arrows, gives you all of the others. (showing that you can get arrows is the difficult part, shown by ais523 above)"
03:12:56 <zzo38> (A symbol that always rebounds can also be made using the fixed mirrors if the flipping mirrors are made using rotators as I mentioned)
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03:30:56 <oerjan> and i even wrote that.
03:33:53 <zzo38> Yes, you did write that, so hopefully you should know.
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04:08:21 <esowiki> [[FuckPack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56288&oldid=56279 * A * (+55)
04:08:44 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck extensions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56289&oldid=56280 * A * (+14)
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04:12:09 <esowiki> [[FuckPack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56290&oldid=56288 * A * (+55)
04:13:12 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck extensions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56291&oldid=56289 * A * (+14)
04:21:50 * oerjan learns about the hero shrew spine from freefall
04:26:29 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck.NET]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56292 * A * (+1322) Created page with "==Language overview== Brainfuck.NET operates on an array of memory cells, also referred to as the [[tape]], each initially set to zero. There is a [[pointer]], initially point..."
04:28:34 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck extensions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56293&oldid=56291 * A * (+89)
04:29:03 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck.NET]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56294&oldid=56292 * A * (+37) /* Language overview */
04:33:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:Ja]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56295&oldid=56276 * Ais523 * (+767) /* The definition doesn't match the example */ new section
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04:35:02 <ais523> I have a huge suspicion that User:Asdf and User:A are the same person and pretending to be two different people
04:37:18 <ais523> and am annoyed at the number of near-identical languages that they're pumping out
04:37:28 <ais523> also the general lack of understanding of Turing-completeness
04:40:48 <oerjan> ais523: i also suspect this.
04:41:42 <oerjan> at least Ja could be interesting, if clarified.
04:42:18 <oerjan> the interpreter doesn't match itself, although someone else (i think) made that.
04:45:27 <zzo38> It does look someone else wrote the interpreter (which also look like not a very good job).
04:46:17 <oerjan> ais523: the interpreter takes (although buggily) a different interpretation of j though, which is actually more promising since the code and data won't always be the same point.
04:46:22 <ais523> oerjan: ja is basically the I/D machine with control flow, I think, just the control flow doesnt actualy work
04:47:11 <ais523> the same person (assuming it's the same person) created a version of the I/D machine with output but the output is the same every time round the main loop…
04:51:50 <zzo38> Then they didn't do a very good job with that either.
04:53:37 <ais523> I'm not sure I've seen them do a very good job with anything yet :-(
04:55:14 <shachaf> ais523: whoa, NetHack is adding statuscolors?
04:55:47 <ais523> "is adding"? some version of that has been in since 3.6
04:56:02 <ais523> although 3.6.0's version didn't really work
04:56:04 <ais523> 3.6.1's is more usable
04:56:38 <shachaf> Ah, looks like it's being reimplemented, not using my patch.
05:00:29 <zzo38> ais523: You wrote how to make arrows with BackFlip if you do not have arrows but do have the symbol that always rebounds, and also flipping mirrors. I also figured how to make flipping mirrors out of rotators in BackTurn, although which pattern you need depends on what "parity" the next pattern in all four directions has. Therefore, I think you can make it BackFlip-equivalent, isn't it? Or did I do something wrong?
05:00:48 <ais523> shachaf: you wrote the original statuscolors?
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05:02:22 <ais523> zzo38: I haven't looked at that in detail to see if it works, but I expect it to work; "rotator that reverses direction when it's hit" is quite similar to a flipping mirror (it's not the same but it's usable for many of the same purposes)
05:04:49 <ais523> I think the reason it was reimplemented was that it was tty-specific
05:04:57 <ais523> and the devteam wanted a version that could work with any windowport
05:05:50 <ais523> (note: I wasn't on the devteam at the time so I don't know for certain)
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05:11:00 <zzo38> ais523: The only way I figured to get it to work is to group rotators together and to use different paths for different directions (which is why you need different patterns in different cases, so that the edges match up properly), but maybe there is a better way I don't know.
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06:52:32 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/canada.day
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06:58:44 <izabera> zzo38: where are the answers?
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07:46:01 <esowiki> [[X:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56296 * A * (+910) Created page with "'''X:''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by User:A([[user:A]]) which further minimizes [[123]]. == Instructions == The pointer begins at location 0. The pro..."
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10:35:07 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56297&oldid=56226 * Ais523 * (+1430) /* Turing-completeness */ new section
10:35:47 <esowiki> [[X:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56298&oldid=56296 * Ais523 * (-19) computational class fix (this is less powerful than an FSM)
10:38:30 <esowiki> [[X:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56299&oldid=56298 * Ais523 * (-43) actually, these categories seem to have been copied from [[123]], e.g. this language probably wasn't created the same year as that one; trim them down to only the categories supported by the article
10:58:17 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56300&oldid=56297 * A * (+95) /* Turing-completeness */
10:59:53 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56301&oldid=56300 * A * (+14) /* Turing-completeness */
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11:09:50 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56302&oldid=56285 * A * (+37) /* Survey */
11:12:51 <esowiki> [[Ja]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56303&oldid=56283 * A * (+21)
11:16:58 <esowiki> [[Aj]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56304 * A * (+792) Created page with "'''aj''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:A]]. Twin language: [[Ja]] == Instructions == {| class="wikitable" ! Instruction || Description |- | <code>..."
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12:51:08 <Taneb> @djinn ((((a -> b) -> b) -> b) -> Void) -> Void
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14:54:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Ja]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56305&oldid=56295 * BoutonIA * (+0)
14:57:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Ja]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56306&oldid=56305 * BoutonIA * (+1)
15:07:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:Aj]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56307 * BoutonIA * (+566) Create the page and add Interpreter
15:10:23 <esowiki> [[User:BoutonIA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56308&oldid=56023 * BoutonIA * (+70) Add My Interpreters
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15:34:13 <esowiki> [[BSoD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56309&oldid=56038 * BoutonIA * (+25) Add Category:Output only
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20:36:19 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56310&oldid=56301 * Ais523 * (+678) reply
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01:28:18 <esowiki> [[Aj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56311&oldid=56304 * Oerjan * (-296) This section was copied from [[ja]] and doesn't apply here. (There seems to be no unbounded memory.)
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01:29:45 <oerjan> well, no useful memory.
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01:49:40 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56312&oldid=56310 * A * (+75) /* Turing-completeness */
01:52:44 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56313&oldid=56312 * A * (+60) /* Turing-completeness */
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02:03:49 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56314&oldid=56302 * A * (+44) /* Survey */
02:04:41 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56315&oldid=56314 * A * (-44) /* Survey */
02:07:34 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56316&oldid=56315 * A * (+43) /* Survey */
02:08:36 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56317&oldid=56316 * A * (+70) /* Survey */
02:14:37 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56318&oldid=56317 * Ais523 * (+1) /* Survey */ UBFIM probably only works because of the NOPs (incidentally, I'm not 100% sure this is TC, anyone have a proof?)
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02:26:26 <imode> error: cannot cast variable type to function type: variable `variable` is not callable.
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02:45:39 <imode> so in my original interpreter, I neglected to set the max replacement to '1'. meaning, my interpreter would simultaneously replace every single matching pattern in the string.
02:46:14 <imode> that made things a little faster with large global rules.
02:46:26 <imode> i.e ones without much context to them.
02:46:38 <imode> but I find it unrequired.
02:50:45 <imode> it's kind of beautiful watching the slow version of my sort-reversesort program. watching the workers stretch themselves over the string and regulate themselves.
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03:19:43 <imode> what're some really small representations of state tables for turing-equivalent automata? TMs are required to specify at least the current state, the read symbol, the target state, the new symbol, and the head movement.
03:20:27 <imode> I'm wondering if there's an alternative representation that's potentially smaller than that, either for TMs or turing-equivalent automata.
03:21:35 <imode> alercah: less elements to fully specify. i.e, I could combine the head movement and the written symbol into an 'action', so I'd only have to specify the current state, the read symbol, the next state, and the action.
03:22:25 <imode> and.. you know, a state table. a lookup table for state transitions based on a read symbol.
03:22:41 <alercah> what is the state table for, say, BF?
03:23:23 <imode> well, just like with TMs, it depends on the machine... but they largely follow instruction-based representations.
03:23:31 <imode> and those can be translated into states pretty trivially.
03:23:45 <imode> one state for each line..
03:24:45 <imode> or, rather, each instruction.
03:25:47 <alercah> it sounds like you are just going to bump into kolmogorov complexity
03:26:42 <imode> I mean... I don't think I am. there have been formulations (i.e the one that BF is based off of) that "compress" the state table into either a series of finite instructions or what I mentioned earlier.
03:31:34 <alercah> well what I mean is the constant-difference between two representations in TMs
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03:31:56 <alercah> once you account for differences in encoding the actual machine (e.g. wasted bits in ASCII characters) by translating everything into the same encoding
03:32:07 <alercah> you run into the conversion constant
03:32:53 <imode> right, I'm not aiming for the "smallest", just alternative versions that aren't like what turing specified.
03:33:11 <imode> I can paraphrase it as I don't like 5-tuples. :P
03:34:50 <alercah> a struct with 5 elements, then :P
03:35:33 <alercah> you can't really get away from that sort of thing if you drill down to the foundations
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03:35:53 <imode> well you can, you just need to admit to an action set and a reduced tape alphabet.
03:36:14 <alercah> you can fix some things as standard
03:36:25 <alercah> e.g. the states are numbers with 0 as the starting state
03:37:13 <alercah> the tape starts at all 0s, and is also numbers, and you define the number of states and symbols implicitly rather than explicitly, say
03:37:27 <alercah> (or you make them explicit, but only a number indicating how many rather than a set)
03:37:46 <alercah> then your transition function can just be that, a function
03:37:56 <alercah> (which ends up being a relation if you break it down, but ignore that :P
03:59:11 <HereToAnnoy> Anybody have any stupid instruction ideas for a language? It could be anything.
03:59:39 <alercah> instruction in what sense? like machine instructions?
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04:00:52 <alercah> all values loaded from registers in addressing aren't used from one register, but the XOR of two registers, which rotate every time you try to load a value in a fixed pattern
04:01:21 <alercah> and there aren't convenient instructions like immediates that would let you simplify everything trivially
04:02:03 <HereToAnnoy> Some string of text that when placed on a line, does something.
04:02:29 <HereToAnnoy> Also, it needs a time/day of week that it will work on, and not at any other time.
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04:52:37 <imode> on the one hand, automata are nice and easy constructs for modern computers, because rewriting requires pattern matching. on the other hand, rewriting is such an elegant concept that it's hard to abandon.
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05:22:50 <esowiki> [[User:U ndefined]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56319&oldid=56116 * U ndefined * (-2)
05:28:43 <oerjan> that does not work hth
05:31:14 <esowiki> [[BackTurn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56320&oldid=56287 * Zzo38 * (+92)
05:35:16 <zzo38> I invented BackTurn in order to try to make a variant of BackFlip that can be reversed just by reversing the direction of program flow and not otherwise altering the program or anything else.
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05:43:09 <zzo38> Have you ever achieved kokushimusou tenhou? (If you have even played mahjong)
05:43:38 <zzo38> (I have never done, nor have I calculated the probability of doing so.)
05:45:13 <oerjan> i have never played mahjong
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06:25:05 <zzo38> If the "R" that ais523 mentioned for avoid arrows in BackFlip in those patterns is only being hit from one way (it looks like it to me), then I think such a limited rebound can also be made from two different rotators in BackTurn like flipping mirrors can be (but this time they are orthogonally rather than diagonally adjacent), so then even with level 0 it should be possible, I think?
06:38:49 <oerjan> in any case you can make one that can be hit from all ways from four one in each direction
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06:45:16 <esowiki> [[BackTurn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56321&oldid=56320 * Zzo38 * (+529)
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07:41:00 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56322 * A * (+1234) Created page with "==How to shorten your Brainfck code== ===Use Compiler flaws=== Indeed, most compilers have compiler flaws. Like the Brainfuck Visualizer, when a '-' appears and the mamory is..."
07:41:20 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56323&oldid=56322 * A * (+8) /* Combine small numbers in your code(<=4) */
07:41:31 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56324&oldid=56323 * A * (+3) /* Use the visualizer */
07:42:58 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56325&oldid=56324 * A * (+47) /* Use the visualizer */
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07:44:33 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56326&oldid=56325 * A * (+0) /* How to shorten your Brainfck code */
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07:49:10 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56327&oldid=56326 * A * (+355) /* How to shorten your Brainfck code */
07:51:59 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56328&oldid=56327 * A * (+14) /* Combine small numbers in your code */
07:52:38 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56329&oldid=56328 * A * (-67) /* How to shorten your Brainfck code(To win a golf contest) */
07:53:51 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56330&oldid=56329 * A * (+60) /* =Give up */
08:04:31 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56331&oldid=56330 * A * (+197) /* Combine small numbers in your code */
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08:06:18 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56332&oldid=56331 * A * (+5) /* Use Compiler flaws */
08:06:40 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56333&oldid=56332 * A * (+2) /* Combine small numbers in your code */
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08:20:35 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56334&oldid=56333 * A * (+433)
08:20:49 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56335&oldid=56334 * A * (+0) /* The classic multiplication */
08:21:58 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56336&oldid=56335 * A * (+26) /* The classic multiplication */
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09:16:59 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56337&oldid=52431 * A * (+61) /* Perfect Powers */
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09:20:11 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56338&oldid=54213 * A * (+65) /* Input a decimal number */
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09:22:32 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56339&oldid=56338 * A * (-3) /* Powers */
09:23:16 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56340&oldid=56337 * A * (-61) /* Perfect Powers */
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11:11:39 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56341&oldid=56336 * A * (+36) /* The classic multiplication */
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11:48:50 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56342&oldid=56341 * A * (+137) /* Combine small numbers in your code */
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11:50:47 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56343&oldid=56342 * A * (+61) /* Combine small numbers in your code */
11:57:24 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56344&oldid=56343 * A * (+202) /* The classic multiplication */
11:59:51 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56345&oldid=56344 * A * (+903) /* The PHP Golfer's advice */
12:00:06 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56346&oldid=56345 * A * (+3) /* Understand the Brainfuck Code */
12:02:58 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56347&oldid=56346 * A * (+68) /* Understand the Brainfuck Commads */
12:05:25 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56348&oldid=56347 * A * (+57) /* The PHP Golfer's advice */
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12:10:50 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56349&oldid=56348 * A * (+387) /* Understand the Brainfuck Commads */
12:13:33 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56350&oldid=56349 * A * (+191) /* Don't Repeat Yourself(DRY) */
12:14:36 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56351&oldid=56350 * A * (+60)
12:16:11 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56352&oldid=56351 * A * (+65) /* Don't Repeat Yourself(DRY) */
12:17:20 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56353&oldid=56352 * A * (+50) /* The classic multiplication */
12:19:00 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56354&oldid=56353 * A * (+53) /* The classic multiplication */
12:22:40 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56355&oldid=56354 * A * (+7) /* The classic multiplication */
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13:25:21 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56356&oldid=56355 * A * (+265) /* Don't Repeat Yourself(DRY) */
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13:32:03 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56357&oldid=56356 * A * (+126) /* Big width loops */
13:32:20 <Taneb> Can anyone think of an actual use for a millibyte unit?
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13:39:34 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56358&oldid=56232 * A * (+125) /* Examples */
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13:43:56 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56359&oldid=56358 * A * (+108) /* Examples */
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14:00:39 <ambrus> I am home free at last! After 18 days in this fucking madhouse, all but the last five days on closed ward, and the first approximately three days (I seriously don't know the exact number) so much sedated that I have total amnesia about it.
14:01:03 <ambrus> Is there a club for #esoteric users who have been in psychiatric closed ward?
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14:18:21 <ambrus> And you know what the worst part of it was? The beds, on the open ward. I could barely get any sleep on them, even though I had to take sleeping pills and I removed the matress and put it on the ground to decrease the torture a bit.
14:19:17 <ambrus> My current theory is that these beds were designed to allow double-blind testing of sleeping medication on healthy individuals. If the people taking your pills can sleep for eight hours on those beds, then your sleeping medication is effective.
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15:40:23 <esowiki> [[User:Digital Hunter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56360&oldid=55245 * Digital Hunter * (+25) /* Stuff */
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16:06:49 <\oren\> shachaf: I am officially tasked with fixing the build system
16:07:12 <Taneb> wob_jonas: how are you doing
16:10:29 <\oren\> this software needs an exorcism, not a "bug fix"
16:10:38 <\oren\> where is my court chaplain
16:11:02 <Taneb> \oren\: your court chaplain is in seclusion due to an outbreak of slow fever
16:11:31 <Taneb> What's the code, ooi?
16:13:27 <\oren\> Taneb: it's a really convoluted series of makefiles and jamfiles and shell scripts and perl scripts and python scripts and scripts written in a company-internal language, all calling each other
16:13:50 <\oren\> Taneb: "You are in a maze of twisty little scripts, all different"
16:15:25 <\oren\> oh, and some of the shell scripts are bash and others are csh
16:18:46 <Taneb> Start rewriting it in zsh and fish and then stop
16:18:56 <\oren\> Taneb: ooh, I found some Lua!
16:19:20 <Taneb> Is there any CMake?
16:19:43 <\oren\> I am looking at the output in tail-f
16:21:47 <\oren\> ok now it's for some reason started building a project that ought to be entirely separate from this one
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16:31:23 <wob_jonas> \oren\: the company-intetrnal language isn't SAP, right?
16:38:29 <\oren\> wob_jonas: it's techinically open-source. it's called Salmon. nobody uses it but us afaik
16:39:49 <wob_jonas> \oren\: have you found the BANCStar components yet?
16:39:54 <\oren\> https://compilers.iecc.com/comparch/article/11-11-021
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16:45:11 <zzo38> I have mostly just used a shell script at the top of a C source code file to compile the program; that is suitable if the program is only one file. More complicated programs work differently; compiling Free Hero Mesh does that but also has JavaScript codes, as well as another shell script to call all of them to compile them if needed due to changed.
16:49:02 <zzo38> Not as convoluted as what you mention above, but it does use multiple programming languages. (Anyways, C doesn't have its own build scripting)
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16:52:12 <wob_jonas> have you tried to relabel it as a "domain-specific language for describing building that particular project" instead of an in-house language?
16:53:08 <\oren\> wob_jonas: https://compilers.iecc.com/comparch/article/11-11-021 <-- does this sound like a man who can take criticism
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17:00:27 <zzo38> You probably should fix that program if it is a mess like that; but, first you have to figure out, what are each of those files doing?
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17:02:03 <wob_jonas> also, have you found the case where the build non-deterministically fails because a later build stage requires a dependency that isn't ready yet because the build system doesn't know there's a dependency?
17:03:25 <wob_jonas> but it nearly always works anyway because the default order happens to be just right for building it, so you only get the error if you modify the right source files
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17:05:12 <\oren\> wob_jonas: well, the standard practice right now is that make clean, in addition to deleting things, "touch" es a certain file to ensure certain things get built
17:06:13 <wob_jonas> not like I'm talking out of experience. I deny having seen that build system at my previous job.
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17:12:07 <wob_jonas> I think there were only two bugs in that job that I committed and was really embarrassed afterwards. One was multiplying two nearly commutating small square matrices in the wrong direction, and one is making an inter-thread queue work as a stack instead so the code started to do the wrong thing only when the load was high enough that there was more
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17:48:01 <HackEso> smlist 470: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
17:48:44 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * HappyFakeBoulder * New user account
17:50:17 <wob_jonas> has http://pbfcomics.com/comics/youll-be-ok/ been listed yet?
17:50:55 <wob_jonas> plus we also got a bunch of abstruse geese while I was away, and a bobadventures
17:51:55 <wob_jonas> that one is really sad given that I did have a (mental) breakdown
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17:52:47 <wob_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20180625.html
17:52:48 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bobadventureslist: not found
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17:59:54 <wob_jonas> `aglist 600,601,602,603,604,605,606
17:59:55 <HackEso> aglist 600,601,602,603,604,605,606: b_jonas shachaf
18:00:59 <shachaf> I don't think there's a point to listing regularly-updating things.
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18:01:30 <wob_jonas> shachaf: it doesn't seem regular still
18:01:44 <wob_jonas> it's frequent enough, but not on any regular schedule
18:02:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56361&oldid=56200 * HappyFakeBoulder * (+342) Added myself to the introduction page.
18:02:19 <shachaf> Why doesn't sed support transducers?
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18:09:30 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * HappyFakeBoulder * uploaded "[[File:HappyFakeBoulder Picture.png]]"
18:09:56 <esowiki> [[User:HappyFakeBoulder]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56363 * HappyFakeBoulder * (+76) Created and added some things.
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18:45:01 <esowiki> [[User:Minin/modern.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56364&oldid=53818 * Minin * (-649) Blanked the page
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23:52:11 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Prof apex * New user account
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01:16:43 <oerjan> wob_jonas: welcome back!
01:34:47 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56365&oldid=56339 * Oerjan * (-62) This doesn't follow the page conventions - x isn't a cell label, but apparently a hardcoded number, so this doesn't really count as an algorithm.
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01:40:23 <oerjan> <\oren\> shachaf: I am officially tasked with fixing the build system <-- it was inevitable.
01:42:06 <shachaf> \oren\: how are you fixing it
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02:22:25 <esowiki> [[Dd]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56366 * A * (+43) Created page with "==dd== ==Syntax== dd print "dd" in console."
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02:51:24 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56367&oldid=55792 * A * (+253) /* brainfuck */
02:52:00 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56368&oldid=56367 * A * (-15) /* brainfuck */
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02:56:54 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56369&oldid=56368 * A * (+192) /* brainfuck */
02:59:27 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56370&oldid=56369 * A * (+148) /* brainfuck */
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03:12:13 <oerjan> ^bf ,[.>+<-[-[>]<++<-]>]!0
03:12:22 <oerjan> ^bf ,[.>+<-[-[>]<++<-]>]!1
03:12:22 <fungot> 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ...
03:12:56 <oerjan> that seems to lack the termination part...
03:13:16 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56371&oldid=56370 * A * (-426) /* brainfuck */
03:13:26 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56372&oldid=56371 * A * (+0) /* brainfuck */
03:14:57 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56373&oldid=56372 * A * (-1) /* brainfuck */
03:16:54 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56374&oldid=56373 * A * (-9) /* brainfuck */
03:18:39 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56375&oldid=56374 * A * (-6) /* brainfuck */
03:28:44 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56376&oldid=56375 * A * (+93) /* brainfuck */
03:32:12 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56377&oldid=56376 * A * (-136) /* brainfuck */
03:33:27 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56378&oldid=56377 * A * (-1) /* brainfuck */
03:48:57 <wob_jonas> shachaf: what's a transducer, and why doesn't ex support transliterations (the equivalent of sed's y command)
03:49:56 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56379&oldid=56378 * A * (+94) /* brainfuck */
03:52:14 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56380&oldid=56379 * A * (-2) /* brainfuck */
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04:09:54 <shachaf> wob_jonas: A transducer is a state machine where the edges are labeled with input and output characters
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04:16:13 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56381&oldid=56380 * A * (-91) /* brainfuck */
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04:18:04 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56382&oldid=56381 * A * (-1) /* brainfuck */
04:18:38 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56383&oldid=56382 * A * (+1) /* brainfuck */
04:25:55 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56384&oldid=56383 * A * (+0) /* brainfuck */
04:30:59 <oerjan> ^bf ,[.->+<[-->++<]>]!0
04:31:06 <oerjan> ^bf ,[.->+<[-->++<]>]!1
04:31:06 <fungot> 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ...
04:32:11 <oerjan> he's starting to get good at it...
04:32:37 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56385&oldid=56384 * A * (-2) /* brainfuck */
04:32:38 <oerjan> although i don't like the nontermination, but the original version also seems to have that problem...
04:33:44 <fungot> 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ...
04:33:55 <oerjan> unless it's just too slow for fungot
04:33:56 <fungot> oerjan: ( ( okay okay)) possibly will be shown on court t._v. all day laughter and i thought
04:40:05 <oerjan> tracing in vim, looks like it indeed loops infinitely.
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04:53:40 <shachaf> wob_jonas: A few days ago I described a thing I don't know how to do with sed.
04:53:50 <oerjan> xkcd was very easy to understand today.
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05:06:45 <wob_jonas> shachaf: and can't you just do a transducer thing by just adding a character marking the I/O head, with input on the right of it and output on the left, and then s/// and t all the transducing stuff?
05:09:33 <shachaf> When I get home I can tell you about my example
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05:17:22 <oerjan> the output of a transducer isn't necessarily deterministic as function of the input hth
05:58:13 <wob_jonas> oh, that reminds me, there was a conversation I wanted to continue
05:59:56 <wob_jonas> "<ais523> IMO Unicode should have used different codepoints for the two Turkish Is than for the Latin I" => I was thinking about this, and I now think that it either can't work, or there'd be a cop-out where some of those six characters rarely actually get used.
06:06:43 <wob_jonas> In particular, assume there's no cop-out, namely: English and Turkish are still widely used languages, pre-digital English and pre-digital Turkish texts exclusively use the current casing rules and this isn't close to changing when computers get invented, and ASCII still only contains the two English I letters.
06:09:56 <wob_jonas> Now suppose you have a typical computer loser who's typing a Turkish text in his Word documents on his Windows computer (or whatever tech is dominant around the 2000s) and prints them or sends them in email. If the turkish I are really encoded as four non-ASCII characters and these encodings are used, then this user will type those four turkish I i
06:10:45 <wob_jonas> And this will happen quasi-automatically, buy him just installing a Turkish localized Windows XP and MS Office and doing no customizations on his computer.
06:12:22 <wob_jonas> Then suppose that this loser decides to try to become a power user, and learn a bit of programming. He finds some dodgy C++ or Java tutorials on the internet or something, then types int main() { printf("hello, world\n"); return 0; }
06:15:55 <wob_jonas> My question is, at what point in the technology pipeline do those letter i in int and main and printf get converted to ASCII letter i, or otherwise understood by the compiler that the keyword means the same? How will this happen in such a way that it causes less of a PITA than the current situation for non-Turkish power users who are creating the t
06:15:55 <wob_jonas> ools involved, like the operating system and input method and the compiler and the command-line interpreter and the version control system??
06:17:39 <wob_jonas> And I know that conversation I'm continuing was back in more than two days, but I'm sorry, I was seriously in a hospital.
06:30:25 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56386&oldid=56385 * A * (+227)
06:31:49 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56387&oldid=56386 * A * (+17)
07:00:54 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56388&oldid=56387 * A * (+174) /* brainfuck */
07:01:24 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56389&oldid=56388 * A * (+11) /* brainfuck */
07:01:38 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56390&oldid=56389 * A * (+1) /* brainfuck */
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08:57:32 <HackEso> SGDQ is Summer Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity every summer, see http://gamesdonequick.com and https://gamesdonequick.com/tracker/events/
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13:49:06 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56391&oldid=56390 * Ais523 * (-521) rv; I'm not convinced this content adds to the article (also, being able to truth-machine falls well short of Turing-completeness; it *is* decent evidence that what you're dealing with is at least an FSM, but probably doesn't prove that)
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13:51:39 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Shorten_your_Brainfuck_code has got to be a troll, right?
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14:51:38 <wob_jonas> https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-07-04.html#lnb
14:53:14 <ais523> hmm, maybe Unicode should have a separate codepoint for dot-varying-on-case i too then
14:53:29 <ais523> so at least when it's ambiguous, you know it's ambiguous, and there are steps you can take to clarify
14:54:11 <ais523> it wouldn't be any worse than the hyphen-minus situation
14:54:20 <Taneb> ais523: did you ever finish writing up your magic-is-TC thing?
14:54:21 <ais523> (which is also sometimes used as a dash!)
14:54:37 <ais523> Taneb: did you see the two pages I posted to the channel? I haven't written more than that
14:54:42 <ais523> I got stuck on the esolang side of things
14:55:05 <ais523> like, one issue is that we have to explain how we know that undecidable programs exist but we can't prove that any given program is undecidable
14:55:12 <ais523> and thus we can't give an example
14:55:20 <Taneb> ais523: a few weeks ago? Yeah, I saw them and with the help of a couple of firends who play magic I more or less understood it
14:55:23 <ais523> and another issue is that it'd be nice to give an example of a program that isn't known to be decidable
14:55:41 <ais523> but most programs like that are rather complex, especially when translated into The Waterfall Model
14:55:44 <ais523> so it'd be nice to have a simpler one
14:56:03 <wob_jonas> ais523: I actually think the right method for the turkish i is just telling the language of each part of the text in the higher-level markup language, such as with a HTML lang tag. that's what we do for every language-dependent thing ideally: unified han characters so the viewer can choose the font, unified cyrillic letters so the browser can use t
14:56:03 <wob_jonas> he right font for italic, text search, conventions of quoting, etc
14:56:07 <ais523> I'd like to find the simplest possible universal minsky machine, really (or at least one that's simple, even if it isn't proven simplest)
14:56:33 <ais523> arguably Unicode would have been better off if each language had its own block of characters, even at the cost of repetition
14:56:55 <ais523> I know there's a big argument wrt Chinese and Japanese rendering (which aren't the same, and yet Unicode doesn't distinguish between Chinese and Japanese characters)
14:57:29 <wob_jonas> oh yeah, by the way, I also disappeared for 18 days and haven't read your M:tG thing yet because of that
14:58:11 <ais523> Taneb: did your friends who play magic agree with the explanation of Omni-Tell? It's always a bit awkward doing deck techs for a deck you've never played
14:59:05 <Taneb> ais523: they found it reasonable, I think
14:59:13 <wob_jonas> also, I think I now sort of understand one reason why there are so many brainfuck-alikes
14:59:47 <ais523> because most people (asdf/a being an exception) make derivatives only of languages they think they understand?
15:00:35 <wob_jonas> I have a SECOND esolang joke in my head that could be easily done as "Brainfuck with <modifications>", and I must resist doing that. For the first such idea, luckily I can put the joke in Consumer society, but I haven't figured out the brainfuckless context for the second joke yet.
15:01:29 <ais523> some jokes only work when you're working from a base everyone already understands
15:01:34 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Forte, for example
15:01:43 <ais523> but in that case starting from practical languages works even better than starting from BF
15:02:14 <wob_jonas> "arguably Unicode would have been better off if each language had its own block of characters, even at the cost of repetition" => wait what? what "each language"? you mean even spanish and portugese would have different letters from each other? norwegian and danish?
15:04:04 <wob_jonas> as for Chinese and Taiwanese and Japanese kanji, I heared rumours that the Han unification was done back when people thought Unicode would only have a space of 2**16 code points, and they were afraid of running out of that if they didn't do Han unification.
15:04:54 <ais523> wob_jonas: they'd be related, as in Unicode would know that they were "the same letter" and font systems would render them the same way by default, but in different blocks in case different, e.g., collation rules are needed
15:05:11 <ais523> I guess you could merge languages which had identical casing and collation and rendering and grapheme boundaries, but that's fairly rare
15:05:32 <ais523> just compare Hungarian "gy" to English "gy", for example, they're an identical sequence of letters but they're a unit in Hungarian and not in English
15:05:49 <Taneb> Like the Dutch IJ?
15:05:59 <int-e> Hard tо imagine Unicοde without duplicates.
15:06:04 <ais523> I'm not as familiar with Dutch but it wouldn't surprise me
15:06:23 <ais523> I guess there are other examples, e.g. oe in German is actually equivalent to ö
15:06:30 <wob_jonas> ais523: Forte is not just a joke though. I'm thinking of actual jokes, ones that would be categorized joke language on esolang if they were brainfuck-based. and my second joke will probably be like that, only using some base other than brainfuck, if I ever write it up (this is a joke that needs some research by me before I can tell it)
15:06:58 <HackEso> [U+043E CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER O] [U+03BF GREEK SMALL LETTER OMICRON] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O]
15:07:44 <wob_jonas> ais523: I just talked about the Hungarian sz/cs/ny/gy and I disagree, they're still two letters in Hungarian. http://www.madore.org/cgi-bin/comment.pl/showcomments?href=http%3a%2f%2fwww.madore.org%2f~david%2fweblog%2f2018-06.html%23d.2018-06-11.2525#comment-24610
15:08:18 <wob_jonas> ais523: what's the status of your omnitell writeup? is there an updated version from those two draft pages you showed before I disappeared?
15:08:36 <ais523> no, I haven't changed it
15:08:49 <ais523> also my argument is that gy collate together in Hungarian and thus they're different from English, where they don't
15:08:54 <ais523> I don't think you disagree with that
15:09:21 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't disagree with that, but I still say that they're not one letters just because they collate together
15:10:14 <Taneb> wob_jonas: my understanding of ais523's argument is because they collate different, they are different letters to the English gy, or could be treated as such
15:10:23 <ais523> well, I treat them as a unit, that doesn't necessarily mean that they're the same letter
15:10:38 <ais523> "qu" is pretty much a unit in English, apart from in a few loanwords, although that has a different nature
15:10:57 <ais523> Taneb: right, you should be able to collate text without parsing things like HTML tags that specify the language
15:11:06 <ais523> and you should be able to collate it without assuming that it's all written in a single language
15:11:35 <wob_jonas> ais523: my oxford dictionary ignores spaces when sorting headword, so eg. the order of headwords at one point I randomly opened the dictionary is "folk rock; folk song; folksy; folk tale; folkweave; folky". would you make the "k " a single character just so that collation works?
15:12:35 <ais523> no, in that case it's the space that has an unusal collation property (i.e. not collating at all)
15:12:46 <ais523> there are some similar situations, e.g. hyphens don't collate in many languages/contexts
15:12:49 <wob_jonas> ais523: oh wait, are you saying that they should be a separate character because you want to collate words differently based on their language in a single list? because that never works
15:13:16 <ais523> I agree that it never works, but I don't see why it couldn't work if people tried to make it work
15:13:26 <wob_jonas> we choose one collation rule and collate all words with that rule in the list, even if a minority of words is from a different language
15:14:16 <wob_jonas> it would be impractical, because you can't expect people reading the list to know all the collation rules for all languages
15:14:31 <wob_jonas> even paper library catalogs, which are pretty heavy on rules, don't do that
15:16:42 <wob_jonas> I guess you recall the example from TAOCP about sorting a library catalog where leading article words in any languageare ignored for collation iff they're in nominative case
15:17:28 <wob_jonas> but in that case the card itself displays the title by either moving the article to the back or by underlining the keyword to sort by with a red pen
15:18:58 <wob_jonas> and I guess you could make the case for just Hungarian too that you may need some way to distinguish between an accidental z-s combination (as in "egészség" and "szemeteszsák") from a real letter zs, and unicode doesn't help you there,
15:19:29 <wob_jonas> people have used manual exception lists for that, and some TeX macros, though the letter mostly for hyphenation rather than collation
15:19:35 <ais523> in France it's apparently common to capitalise the sort key in lists of names
15:20:17 <ais523> wob_jonas: "szs" in Hungarian is like ". ." in Homespring (except that it probably doesn't cause a time paradox)
15:21:42 <wob_jonas> ais523: we do that too to show which of your personal names are the family name, because social conventions dictate that the person addressing you must know that, people use both western and Hungarian order for their name on English CVs and the like, and many words are both common family names and male given names in Hungarian
15:22:03 <wob_jonas> I have my family name all uppercased in my current CV for example
15:22:13 <ais523> in England it can be hard to interact with people who you know are from a culture which uses the opposite order for names
15:22:24 <ais523> as they might have swapped the names for our benefit or might not, so we don't know which name is which
15:23:17 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, it's even worse with Japenese and Vietnamese names, because most people don't know enough of their culture to even make an educated guess of which part of the name is the family name
15:24:02 <ais523> there are some video games which were translated from Japanese to English but proper nouns were left the same
15:24:13 <ais523> after playing a few of those you can often make a good guess at recognising Japanese personal names
15:25:49 <wob_jonas> and then there's the special problem of guessing if a name is an Icelandic name or a Western name with a family name that sounds like an Icelandic patronym
15:26:21 <ais523> in most cases that doesn't matter, though
15:27:02 <wob_jonas> why not? it matters for the same social conventions
15:30:16 <wob_jonas> eg. if you're in a hospital and want to refer to a specific doctor who's treated you, you shall call them their family name plus a rank in some order, but never call them their given name plus a title (which depends on their rank and gender) if they have a family name because that would be insulting. there's a workaround of using their full name, b
15:32:47 <ais523> no, I mean a family name and patronym are used in much the same contexts
15:32:58 <ais523> also, it's often a bad idea to try to work out what to call someone from their name
15:33:14 <ais523> in England it's quite common for the name that someone prefers to be called by not to match /any/ of their official names
15:33:19 <wob_jonas> guessing the right title is also tricky by the way if you haven't yet gotten a paper receipt listing their name. I think that's why some hospital departments have a prominent list of doctors working their with their ranks (and sometimes photos)
15:34:18 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, that's true only for Russian patronyms, not for Icelandic patronyms
15:34:37 <ais523> you don't use title+patronym, right
15:35:01 <ais523> but that said, I don't think you'd use title+forename either
15:37:47 <wob_jonas> for icelandic names, you use the given name (plus often a title before or after) in contexts where you'd use a family name (plus title) with a western or Hungarian name, and you use the given name plus patronym for disambiguation contexts when you'd use the full name for a western or Hungarian name
15:38:52 <wob_jonas> only it's impossible to guess if the name is actually Icelandic, or it's westernized, similar to how it's hard to guess which name is the family name in some Hungarian names that might be swapped in a western context
15:39:39 <ais523> "forename" is "given name" in cultures which put that first
15:39:47 <ais523> I think it's put first in Iceland, isn't it?
15:40:14 <ais523> but over here in England we're given multiple names and refuse to use any of them :-P
15:40:17 <wob_jonas> and some people with Icelandic names do westernise their names in some contexts
15:40:26 <ais523> I got annoyed when my ISP refused to call me "Alex"…
15:41:00 <wob_jonas> ais523: I see. I didn't know that word. I thought it was just called a given name or a christian name, or just plain "name" on forms that have a "surname" field
15:41:21 <wob_jonas> I didn't even know there was a special word for given names that come first
15:42:49 <ais523> it's by far the most common in British English when we're talking about our own culture, "given name" has only become popular fairly recently because it's more culture-independent
15:43:36 <wob_jonas> ais523: wasn't it "first name" and "last name" back when they just assumed western order?
15:43:58 <ais523> when you're talking to children, perhaps; "forename" and "surname" was more common
15:45:11 <wob_jonas> and sure, some nicknames are completely unguessable, in both ways, as in, you can't guess the nickname from the name, and you can't guess the name from a short set of names on a list from just the nickname
15:45:25 <wob_jonas> sometimes the nickname is not even related to the full name
15:46:10 <wob_jonas> even in IRL contexts as opposed to IRC or other internet-based forums where people deliberately obfuscate their real name
15:48:07 <ais523> I've introduced myself to people as callforjudgement in real life…
15:48:55 <wob_jonas> and there are even people on the internet who insist on two different nicknames for different contexts
15:49:34 <ais523> there's no particular reason to have consistent nicknames unless you want people to recognise you cross-context
15:50:18 <wob_jonas> I'm confused by the callforjudgement though, I assumed it was just a fallback irc nick for when you have multiple connections
15:50:28 <wob_jonas> I thought you just always used ais523
15:50:54 <ais523> in the contexts where you know me, I indeed use ais523 as a primary nick; I set callforjudgement as a secondary nick here to keep it reserved
15:51:02 <ais523> because I use it on some other sites
15:51:24 -!- ais523 has changed nick to callforjudgement.
15:51:26 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
15:51:40 <ais523> although recently my connection failures haven't been jumping over to it so I'd better reset the timeout!
15:52:44 <wob_jonas> I know David Madore uses his real name and two different unrelated nicknames actively, plus had at least one other nickname in the past, but he doesn't hide the connections and I don't really understand how he chooses between which name he uses
15:53:03 <wob_jonas> except the obvious part where he uses his full name in formal academic contexts
15:53:04 <ais523> I use callforjudgement for gaming
15:53:09 <ais523> and ais523 for programming
15:53:32 <ais523> unfortunately, there's enough of an overlap WRT TASing/speedrunning that I ended up having to use ais523 for that as there'd be an inconsistency no matter what I chose
15:54:11 <wob_jonas> I just use b_jonas_ and b_jonas__ as IRC fallbacks because those are sane defaults, plus I used b_jonas-2 at some point
15:54:45 <ais523> I use ais523_ specifically for when I'm using someone else's computer
15:54:54 <ais523> more underscores indicate sufficiently more ridiculous setups
15:55:46 <ais523> I think I used ais523___ once, I can't remember the exact setup but I think IE6 might have been involved (years after it had become a complete joke and wasn't current even among IE versions)
15:56:10 <wob_jonas> as for me, on some forums I've been calling myself "jonas" for so long that switching to "b_jonas" would be confusing to readers now, but "jonas" isn't unambiguous enough (there's even a forum with a "Jonas" unrelated to me), so I'm stuck and don't know what to do
15:56:13 <ais523> also I didn't mean "sufficiently"
15:56:18 <ais523> I can't figure out which word I did mean though
15:56:42 <ais523> commensurably, perhaps?
15:58:35 <ais523> (incidentally, this serves as yet another trivial disproof of the sapir-whorf hypothesis; I find that disproofs like this come up once every few years, so while rare, they should be common enough for everyone to be aware of them if they've been paying attention to it for a while)
16:01:15 <wob_jonas> ais523: when I read English, such as on IRC, I usually think in English now unless I'm very tired. (I'm often ashamed about that.) In that case, when I don't know the right word in English, I imagine sort of a buzz replacing the word, and still finish the sentence in my head and understand it. Is that another disproof?
16:01:47 <ais523> any situation where you think a word without knowing what the word is should be a disproof
16:03:36 <wob_jonas> When I was thinking about the turkish i situation, I spent an inordinate amount of time thinking of workarounds (cop-outs) involving time travel by the way.
16:04:49 <ais523> hmm, somehow I'm reminded of Feather
16:04:59 <wob_jonas> The easiest method with time-travel would of course to convince Kemal Attatürk to not use the turkish i, or just kill or incapacitate him and hope the next language reformer won't come up with such a ridiculous thing.
16:06:41 <wob_jonas> A more tricky method is to bribe or threaten Noah Webster to use the turkish i in English texts, then hope that catches on and that with the US being a major superpower back then and inventing computers, everyone else in the word would use the turkish casing rule.
16:07:52 <ais523> probably Gutenberg would make a better person to bribe
16:07:59 <wob_jonas> As in, you'd make everyone use İ as the capital of i, so much that it becomes an ASCII letter, and I becomes an obscure glyph that you only see in old books.
16:08:07 <ais523> that way you affect most European languages, not just English
16:08:23 <ais523> (the printing press was mostly responsible for, e.g., þ dying out from English)
16:10:33 <wob_jonas> ais523: but wasn't Gutenberg specifically trying to make printed books look as similar to manuscript codexes at his time, even to the extent of making the typesetting technology more difficult by having different variants of types for the same letter so they look just like in manuscripts?
16:11:56 <wob_jonas> But you're right that there's a risk that some European languages get stuck using the old conventions even if English changes.
16:14:42 <wob_jonas> An even bigger overkill cop-out would be to somehow use time-travel to make the US less powerful, have Turkey become a superpower, and have them pioneer telegraphs so that the two different pairs of i are already there in all character encodings, even baudot. But I think that wouldn't work, because then they'd never have changed away from arabic sc
16:17:40 <wob_jonas> By the time they switched to latin, printed books in latin script and non-turkish languages would have been too influential.
16:19:10 <wob_jonas> Making Vietnam a superpower would also not work for the same reason.
16:25:29 <wob_jonas> So my safest bet for a time-travel fix is still just bribing Kemal Atatürk, https://www.xkcd.com/567/ style
16:26:35 <wob_jonas> That would still leave you with a Vietnamese dotted I, but that's a lesser problem, it's only comparable to the cyrillic italic letter differences.
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16:39:01 <wob_jonas> Also for some reason I was thinking a lot that we should reform Hungarian spelling so that it's easier to guess the pronunciation of transliterated words and loanwords. In particular, the semi-vowel u should be properly distinguished from the vowel u, such as by writing them as w or ŭ. The most common word where that appears is aŭtó, and all greek-
16:39:01 <wob_jonas> originating compounds that start by aŭto.
16:39:58 <ais523> hmm, in English, au is the same as aw, but also the same as or
16:40:08 <ais523> at least in most dialects
16:40:19 <ais523> so I think of au as being a vowel of its own, rather than a combination of a+u
16:40:40 <ais523> I guess ou/ow is similar
16:40:54 <ais523> although ou has a number of possible pronounciations
16:41:14 <ais523> out, southern, bought…
16:41:30 <wob_jonas> Also, we should transliterate chi from ancient greek as ch instead of kh, because "kh" is a very common combination to appear randomly in inflected or suffixed words, so much that such occurrences dwarf the number of "kh" used as chi.
16:43:11 <ais523> well, ch and kh are pronounced differently
16:43:23 <ais523> so people use kh to give a better impression of how it sounds
16:44:01 <ais523> I can see a decent argument for getting rid of the letter c altogether, and using k or s instead, but that means you need to find some other way to write ch (as it's neither a kh nor an sh)
16:50:59 <wob_jonas> ais523: I'm talking about ancient greek, not modern greek, and you can't use k or s instead because those are already used for kappa and sigma resp
16:51:34 <wob_jonas> oh, you mean in English or French?
16:51:41 <wob_jonas> yes, there the "ch" would be a bad choice
16:52:32 <ais523> come to think of it, what's the difference between chi, kappa, and kappa followed by an aspirated vowel?
16:52:33 <wob_jonas> I'm talking about Hungarian, where "ch" is mostly used for a sound similar to the ancient greek chi in loanwords from German or Latin.
16:53:14 <wob_jonas> I'm talking about Hungarian, where "ch" is mostly used for a sound similar to the ancient greek chi in loanwords from German or Latin.
16:53:42 <ais523> come to think of it, "ch" is something different yet again in Scottish
16:53:55 <ais523> it's more like Welsh ll than English ch/sh/kh
16:54:18 <wob_jonas> "ch" also sometimes appears as an accidental combination, like "kh", but less often, because "c" is a rare letter, and even rarer at the end of morphemes
16:55:24 <ais523> right, "c" at the end of a word in English is (as far as I can tell) always hard, and nearly always spelled as "k" instead
16:55:33 <wob_jonas> ais523: the "kh" situation annoys me because in Russian (and most other languages not using the latin script) we transliterate the same sound with "h", so we have three different spellings for one sound for no reason.
16:55:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, again I'm saying "ch" appears as random combination in Hungarian rarely
16:56:14 <wob_jonas> English doesn't have any inflections that start with "h"
16:56:20 <ais523> my experience with Hungarian is that it gets a lot of random letter combinations
16:56:47 <wob_jonas> but Hungarian has "-hez" for nouns and the suffix "-het" which are both quite common
16:56:54 <ais523> and we can form compound words where the second part of the compound starts with h
16:58:22 <wob_jonas> but in general, "k" and "h" have swapped frequency in Hungarian vs English. English has a lot of "h" (because of the word "the") and few "k", whereas Hungarian has a lot of "k" (mostly because of conjugation and declination) but very few "h" (and even some mute "h")
17:00:16 <wob_jonas> which is, by the way, the second or third reason why Dvorak keyboard layout for Hungarian is a bad idea, the first reason being that "á" and "é" are too common.
17:03:51 <wob_jonas> the second reason is that "sz" is very common. we missed the opportunity around 1900 to use a single letter for "sz", and it would be very hard to fix now.
17:04:42 <ais523> Hungarian sz is English s, and Hungarian s is English… sh?
17:05:06 <ais523> maybe we should be using a single letter for sh :-D
17:05:27 <ais523> we could use j, nobody will miss it :-D
17:05:41 <wob_jonas> the worst part is that Hungarian "c" used to be spelled as "cz", so there was an opening when we could have respelled "sz" as "c".
17:05:59 <wob_jonas> the Hungarian "c" is a totally rare letter, rarer even than "cs"
17:06:22 <ais523> (come to think of it, the language name Clojure uses j in a position that makes an sh sound in the word "closure"…)
17:07:03 <wob_jonas> ais523: really? I think it's a voiced soft j sound in "closure", as in, the "measure" sound
17:08:28 <ais523> oh, you're probably right
17:08:39 <ais523> many accents don't distinguish those sounds clearly
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17:18:22 <wob_jonas> The best outcome IMO would have been to spell Hungarian "sz" as "s", Hungarian "s" as "c", Hungarian "cs" as "č" or "ć", Hungarian "zs" as "ž" or "ź", Hungarian "c" as "š" or "ś", and Hungarian "z" still as "z";
17:18:59 <wob_jonas> but for that you'd have to time travel back at least 600 years, as opposed to just the simple partial fix of spelling "sz" as "c".
17:28:39 <wob_jonas> Another alternative that would perhaps work is to spell Hungarian with a variant of the modern Ukranian alphabet, but with acute accent for marking long vowels.
17:29:38 <wob_jonas> But that's even more impossible historically, because the modern cyrillic alphabets are way too new.
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17:35:37 <wob_jonas> Whereas the ŭ respelling could conceivably happen if the Academy decided to decree its use and made the old spelling acceptible but depreciated.
17:36:29 <wob_jonas> Oh, that reminds me. I have a question.
17:38:36 <wob_jonas> In the Kalevala, "Kaukomieli", the alternate name for Lemminkejnen, is it supposed to be four syllables or five syllables? It appears as both in Rácz István's translation, and I'm not sure which one is the error.
17:41:10 <wob_jonas> There are a few other cases where this printing of the translation has 9-syllable half-lines (rather than the expected 8-syllable ones), apparently by mistake, but the "Kaukomieli" part is very annoying because I can't tell which of at least two lines containing it are mistakes, the ones where it's used as four syllable or the ones where it's used
17:42:14 <wob_jonas> I'm asking this here because there are people who speak Finnish.
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17:45:51 <wob_jonas> I should probably check the older edition for some of those mistaken lines by the way.
17:46:45 <wob_jonas> I'll also want to try the other translations, because I'm not quite satisfied with Rácz István's, due to the very high standards in poetry translation that I must compare him.
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17:57:59 <wob_jonas> ais523 (who isn't here, I know): in the Omni-tell thing, if the original tournament deck includes 8 Wishes, then how can you tell that the deck would still be tourey-viable if you modify the sideboard?
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18:27:26 <wob_jonas> Also, once ais523 gets his writeup on the M:tG TC proof in a good state, we'll seriously have to consider M:tG-without-Rotlung-Reanimator as an esolang of whose computational abilities we care about.
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20:10:18 <fungot> moony: um in the evening and stuff see we can't leave the classroom now
20:10:28 <moony> where's fungot's SRC again? :P
20:10:28 <fungot> moony: over memorial day sigh like service that was on that plane
20:11:12 <fungot> moony: yeah i i always wonder if if it's made known or if it's boring or you know you
20:11:16 <fungot> moony: ( ( sigh you know what this is christie)) doesn't make any sense
20:13:29 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
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20:27:04 <wob_jonas> Oh, and by the way, I'll be afk starting tomorrow for four days, for a real world travel event, so don't be surprised if I'm not here..
20:31:25 <wob_jonas> ais523: in "Magic: the Gathering is Undecidable: The Setup", you say "Most notably, this gives us arbitrarily many casts of Force of Will with which we can counter anything counterable our opponent tries to do, arguably enough for a win in most gamestates as it is."
20:32:18 <wob_jonas> but that doesn't seem right, because the combo you mention can't be done instant speed, and the opponent could cast more spells than you have Force of Wills
20:33:08 <wob_jonas> you can only repeat that combo at sorcery speed
20:36:02 <wob_jonas> "We'll hold some Forces of Will back in case the opponent has any free spells in their hand; as far as I can tell, every spell that can be cast for free can be countered. So the only potential problems would be uncounterable spells powered by something like Simian Spirit Guide, which the opponent is unlikely to have." => no, another problem would b
20:36:02 <wob_jonas> e abilities on cards in their hand, such as channel, but those usually cost mana too
20:49:48 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Language * New user account
20:52:23 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56392&oldid=56361 * Language * (+175) /* Introductions */
21:03:45 <wob_jonas> ais523: in the setup of the clean opponent state, what do you do if the opponent has a Sigarda, Host of Herons and a Seedborn Muse and two Amoeboid changelings each enchanted by a Diplomatic Immunity, and turn their Sigarda and Muse changelings in each of your upkeeps?
21:04:35 <wob_jonas> The Ghoul won't work on them because all four creatures have all creature types, and you can't target anything.
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21:12:15 <wob_jonas> Heck, the Sigarda doesn't even need a Diplomatic Immunity, it has hexproof built in.
21:14:06 <wob_jonas> Alternately, what do you do if the opponent has a Sigarda, Host of Herons that got turned into typeless by a use of Animate Artifact and
21:15:04 <wob_jonas> just take the original question: a Sigarda, Host of Herons, a Seedborn Muse, and two Amoeboid Changelings, three of those protected by Diplomatic Immunity
21:17:07 <wob_jonas> I admit this is pretty unlikely in a real game
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21:34:51 <wob_jonas> ""szs" in Hungarian is like ". ." in Homespring" => yes, which is why I started spelling "szemeteszsák" (the only non-rare word where it doesn't resolve to "sz"+"s") as "szemetes-zsák" these days, even though that's technically not allowed by the Academy rules.
22:03:07 <wob_jonas> I guess you could still Trickbind the use of the Amoeboid
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22:33:44 <esowiki> [[User:Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56393 * Language * (+3113) Created language about a wiki.
22:38:26 <esowiki> [[User:HereToAnnoy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56394&oldid=55710 * HereToAnnoy * (+67) linked to a language about a wiki
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22:42:17 <esowiki> [[User:Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56395&oldid=56393 * HereToAnnoy * (+74) spec fix of a language about a wiki
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01:34:40 <fungot> 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ...
01:35:03 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56396&oldid=56391 * Oerjan * (+11) /* brainfuck */ Replace by the reverted version by [[User:A]], which was shorter and simpler.
01:47:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:Alphuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56397&oldid=40427 * Oerjan * (+2) Fix incorrect categorization of talk page
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01:54:00 <esowiki> [[User:Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56398&oldid=56395 * Oerjan * (-61) Improve formatting, also remove a non-existent category which this language is currently nowhere near the low, low bar of reaching.
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02:06:24 <esowiki> [[Solo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56399 * A * (+186) Created page with "==Syntax== {| class="wikitable" |- | s || scan a number in console |- | o || output the number |- | l || loop the next byte forever if the accumuator is not 0 |} ==Truth-mach..."
02:08:29 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56400&oldid=56396 * A * (+21) /* Core SNUSP */
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02:24:14 <esowiki> [[Is]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56401 * A * (+675) Created page with "==is== {| class="wikitable" |- | i || increment the current byte |- | s || set the whole array(It is all set to 0)(If it repeats forever, then it will overflow) into the poin..."
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02:25:44 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56402&oldid=56400 * A * (+151) /* IRP */
02:26:45 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56403&oldid=56402 * A * (+1) /* =Is */
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02:43:54 <oerjan> my altnick hadn't been used since january...
02:47:51 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523> I can't figure out which word I did mean though <-- progressively hth
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03:00:35 <esowiki> [[Fake-machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56404 * A * (+530) Created page with "A '''Fake-machine''' is a simple program type, inspired by [[User:Keymaker|Keymaker]]'s Truth-machine to be a program that is easy, most of the time, to implement in a languag..."
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03:03:07 <esowiki> [[Fake-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56405&oldid=56404 * A * (+5) /* Implementations */
03:06:43 <esowiki> [[Fake-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56406&oldid=56405 * A * (+14)
03:06:44 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas <wob_jonas> The best outcome IMO would have been to spell Hungarian [...] <-- you seem to be reinventing czech spelling except for swapping s and c...
03:07:07 <esowiki> [[Fake-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56407&oldid=56406 * A * (+26)
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04:02:34 <fungot> 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ...
04:03:33 <ais523> oh, I see how it's meant to work
04:04:02 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56408&oldid=56403 * Ais523 * (-11) Undo revision 56396 by [[Special:Contributions/Oerjan|Oerjan]] ([[User talk:Oerjan|talk]]) the version by [[User:A]] isn't correct; it goes into an infinite loop on 0 rather than terminating
04:05:26 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56409&oldid=56408 * Ais523 * (-152) undo the [[is]] program; you can't specify an entirely different program for input 0 and input 1, that doesn't test conditionals
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04:18:21 <oerjan> ais523: the original also goes into an infinite loop
04:18:58 <ais523> do I have to write a working one myself, then?
04:19:13 <oerjan> no, there's a working one way back in page history (about two pages)
04:19:41 <oerjan> or at least, a different one.
04:20:45 <oerjan> perhaps a bit of bisection is in order.
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04:26:47 <ais523> ^bf >,.[<+>>>--[>-<--]<-<-]>[<<[.]]!0
04:26:47 <fungot> 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 ...
04:26:55 <ais523> ^bf >,.[<+>>>--[>-<--]<-<-]>[<<[.]]!1
04:26:55 <fungot> 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ...
04:27:11 <ais523> ^bf >,.[<+>>>--[<->--]<-<-]>[<<[.]]!0
04:27:14 <ais523> ^bf >,.[<+>>>--[<->--]<-<-]>[<<[.]]!1
04:27:14 <fungot> 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ...
04:27:26 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56410&oldid=56409 * Oerjan * (+7) Undo [https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Truth-machine&type=revision&diff=47110&oldid=46694 old edits] which made it loop infinitely on 0
04:27:49 <oerjan> or were you making a better one...
04:28:06 <ais523> mine checks even/odd, I think that one's checking for 48 specifically
04:28:14 <ais523> ,[>+>+<<-]++++++[>--------<-]>[>.<]>.
04:28:16 <oerjan> ,[>+>+<<-]++++++[>--------<-]>[>.<]>.
04:28:23 <ais523> >,.[<+>>>--[<->--]<-<-]>[<<[.]]
04:28:45 <ais523> hmm, can you golf off a byte there by rearranging what cell's used for what?
04:28:52 <ais523> mine relies on wrapping, anyway, that one doesn't
04:29:03 <oerjan> maybe have both, then.
04:29:46 <ais523> ^bf ,.[>>>+<--[<->--]<-<-]>[>>[.]]!0
04:29:48 <ais523> ^bf ,.[>>>+<--[<->--]<-<-]>[>>[.]]!1
04:29:48 <fungot> 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ...
04:29:59 <ais523> >,.[<+>>>--[<->--]<-<-]>[<<[.]]
04:30:05 <ais523> ,.[>>>+<--[<->--]<-<-]>[>>[.]]
04:30:13 <ais523> yep, slightly shorter if you rearrange it like this
04:30:48 <ais523> an even/odd test is surprisingly hard to do non-wrapping
04:31:38 <ais523> ^bf >>,.[[->+<]>-]<[<<]>[.]!0
04:31:40 <ais523> ^bf >>,.[[->+<]>-]<[<<]>[.]!1
04:31:54 <ais523> ^bf >>,.[[->+<]+>-]<[<<]>[.]!0
04:31:54 <fungot> 0<CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP> ...
04:31:56 <ais523> ^bf >>,.[[->+<]+>-]<[<<]>[.]!1
04:31:58 <oerjan> hm my edit summary didn't give a clickable link. it's annoying that Undo over more than one edit doesn't fill one in...
04:32:46 <oerjan> ais523: that's full of ^As tdnh
04:32:57 <ais523> yes, I know what went wrong
04:33:44 <ais523> ^bf >>>>,.[[->+>+<<]>>-]<<[<<<<]>[.]!0
04:33:44 <fungot> 0<CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP> ...
04:34:22 <ais523> ^bf >>>>,.[[->+>+<<]>>-]<[<<<<]>[.]!0
04:34:23 <oerjan> by the way someone started a new polyglot chain https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/167621/add-a-egaugnal-to-a-polyglot
04:34:25 <ais523> ^bf >>>>,.[[->+>+<<]>>-]<[<<<<]>[.]!1
04:34:42 <ais523> I probably won't contribute to it
04:34:46 <ais523> might look at it when it grows longer
04:36:04 <ais523> ^bf >,.[->+>+<<]>>[[->+<]+>-]<[<<]>[.]!0
04:36:09 <ais523> ^bf >,.[->+>+<<]>>[[->+<]+>-]<[<<]>[.]!1
04:36:09 <fungot> 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ...
04:36:20 <ais523> but it's not nearly as simple as the rather elegant original :-(
04:36:41 <oerjan> as i said, include both
04:36:58 <ais523> I mean, my original non-wrapping version which didn't work but was very elegant
04:37:35 <ais523> ^bf >>>,.[[->+<<+>]>-]<[<<]>[.]!0
04:37:38 <ais523> ^bf >>>,.[[->+<<+>]>-]<[<<]>[.]!1
04:37:51 <ais523> ^bf >>>,.[[->+<<+>]>-]<<<[<<]>[.]!0
04:37:53 <ais523> ^bf >>>,.[[->+<<+>]>-]<<<[<<]>[.]!1
04:37:53 <fungot> 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ...
04:37:57 <ais523> there, that's a bit better
04:38:27 * ais523 vaguely wonders if all three leading >s are required
04:38:30 <ais523> time to bring up a debugger, I guess
04:39:03 <oerjan> ^bf +>>>,.[[->+<<+>]>-]<<<[<<]>[.]!0
04:39:08 <oerjan> ^bf +>>>,.[[->+<<+>]>-]<<<[<<]>[.]!1
04:39:08 <fungot> 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ...
04:41:28 <ais523> oh, that's a clever way to check
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04:41:36 <ais523> ^bf +>>,.[[->+<<+>]>-]<<<[<<]>[.]!0
04:41:36 <fungot> 0<CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP> ...
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04:41:54 <ais523> based on what causes the overshoot to the left of the start, it'll be reliable in this case
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04:43:09 <ais523> >>,.[[->+<<+>]>-]<<<[<<]>[.]
04:43:19 <ais523> >,.[<+>>>--[<->--]<-<-]>[<<[.]]
04:43:33 <ais523> hmm, I'm using a proportional-width font, the programs are much the same width in this
04:43:52 <oerjan> the first is shorter hth
04:44:01 <ais523> looks like >>,.[[->+<<+>]>-]<<<[<<]>[.] is the best option of my programs, it's shorter /and/ it doesn't require wrapping
04:44:12 <ais523> although it does have O(n²) performance where n is the ASCII code of the input
04:44:32 <ais523> I've just confirmed in a debugger that the maximum overshoot is 2 squares to the left of the input
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04:45:30 <ais523> I'm not sure I did that right
04:46:42 <ais523> oh, looks like all three > /are/ needed
04:46:48 <ais523> in the case where the input is 0
04:47:10 <oerjan> 0 the digit or 0 the cell value
04:47:21 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56411&oldid=56410 * Ais523 * (-8) /* brainfuck */ shorter version
04:48:16 <ais523> the program should work on cell values 0 and 1 too, I think
04:48:32 <ais523> although with cell value 0 it follows a different codepath that just happens to give the right answer, rather than by design
04:50:41 <ais523> actually, with cell value 0 the program degenerates to >>>,.<<<>
04:50:52 <ais523> which makes it very clear how much tape is needed :-)
05:03:54 <ais523> come to think of it I'm not sure that the codepath for NUL is that different from that for \x30
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05:44:55 <oerjan> ais523: i don't think it exits without error on input 1 hth
05:45:26 <ais523> I know what I meant, as do you
05:46:23 <shachaf> Is there a programming language based on explicit SSA in some sense?
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06:02:57 <ais523> some intermediate representations are like that
06:03:17 <ais523> I can't think of a high-level language offhand that uses it
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06:20:45 <FireFly> SPIR-V as well, I remember liking it when I scanned its spec draft
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06:22:43 <FireFly> I think there are languages written as a fairly thin layer above SPIR-V (and maybe WebASM), which might count as "high-level language with ex plicit SSA"
06:22:59 <shachaf> I should figure out what the question I'm trying to ask is first, anyway.
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06:23:13 <shachaf> I guess you can also say that Mill assembly is SSA.
06:24:29 <FireFly> I should get back to my "I swear it'll become a fancy decompiler someday" project
06:28:20 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56412&oldid=56357 * A * (+494) /* Big width loops */
06:32:55 <shachaf> I think the language I've been trying to figure out is related to SSA but I haven't figured out exactly how it works yet.
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06:36:18 <ais523> hmm, I suddenly realised that SSA is similar in a way to continuation passing style
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06:56:10 <shachaf> Also did you see the presentation of SSA in https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~fp/courses/15411-f13/lectures/06-ssa.pdf ?
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06:59:46 <ais523> no; I'm not sure I've read any papers/lectures on SSA
07:00:10 <ais523> it's just one of those concepts that you pick up when you do esoprogramming, because it's helpful to know all the low-level programming techniques in existence in case one of them becomes relevant
07:00:19 <ais523> although, hmm, SSA isn't really conceptually low level
07:00:27 <ais523> just happens to be used there because it's a pain to program in manually
07:06:45 <shachaf> Well, I like that presentation more than the one with phi nodes.
07:07:56 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56413&oldid=56411 * ZM * (+1) /* Andromeda */ actually push 0 on 0
07:09:21 <Lymia> Isn't FP code all effectively already in SSA?
07:09:27 <Lymia> (At least, pure FP code)
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07:18:13 <ais523> Lymia: hmm, I guess you can see a function call as a phi node
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07:56:17 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56414&oldid=56412 * A * (+457) /* Average Numbers */
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08:55:04 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56415&oldid=56413 * A * (+53) /* brainfuck */
09:01:16 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56416&oldid=56414 * A * (+568) /* Golf question */
09:02:39 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56417&oldid=56415 * A * (+88) /* brainfuck */
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09:05:52 <Taneb> Static single assignmnet?
09:08:46 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56418&oldid=56417 * A * (+14) /* brainfuck */
09:18:50 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56419&oldid=56418 * A * (-102) /* brainfuck */
09:21:58 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56420&oldid=56419 * A * (+114) /* brainfuck */
09:24:54 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56421&oldid=56416 * A * (-25) /* Let's try another longer version */
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11:16:41 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56422&oldid=56421 * A * (+32) /* The classic multiplication */
11:19:03 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56423&oldid=56422 * A * (+5) /* Golf question */
11:21:04 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56424&oldid=56423 * A * (+51) /* Combine small numbers in your code */
11:27:40 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56425&oldid=56424 * A * (+10) /* Combine small numbers in your code */
11:27:50 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56426&oldid=56425 * A * (+1) /* Combine small numbers in your code */
11:28:14 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56427&oldid=56426 * A * (-87) /* Use the visualizer */
11:28:59 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56428&oldid=56427 * A * (-182) /* Let's try another longer version */
11:31:17 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56429&oldid=56428 * A * (+854) /* Really? A shorter one */
11:33:07 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56430&oldid=56429 * A * (-44) /* ASCII list */
11:35:19 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56431&oldid=56430 * A * (+26) /* ASCII list */
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11:43:24 <ais523> why is that ASCII list a) wrong and b) partially in Japanese?
11:43:46 <ais523> oh, I see the Japanese got removed at some point
11:44:25 <ais523> `` perl -e 'print chr 23' | unidecode
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11:44:52 <ais523> oh, it takes from argument, not stdin
11:45:00 <ais523> `` unidecode $(perl -e 'print chr 23')
11:45:17 <ais523> I doubt it's tab though
11:45:35 <ais523> oh, "end of transmission block"
11:46:29 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56432&oldid=56431 * Ais523 * (-836) /* ASCII list */ delete; a) this would be better as a link to an external site, b) it doesn't really have much to do with brainfuck in particular (or golfing!), c) it isn't even correct
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15:07:11 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56433&oldid=55610 * Digital Hunter * (+621) /* How it works */
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21:35:11 <imode> starting to think string rewriting isn't practical.
21:38:10 <imode> my sorting program worked with single rule execution. but it took 500x longer than one with simultaneous rule execution.
21:44:07 <imode> I have a feeling that a TM would actually perform better in that regard.
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21:47:32 <imode> with rewriting your state is just limited to 1. the rule you're executing, and 2. the thing you're rewriting. while with TMs, it's 1. the current state, 2. the head position and 3. the entire tape.
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22:14:02 <imode> it doesn't _look_ quite as elegant as string rewriting but it's certainly more practical. I wonder if there's a midway point. tag systems?
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23:09:18 <imode> how would you give a "fair" rule order to a string rewriting system.
23:09:46 <imode> I know that Thue is nondeterministic.
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02:03:52 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cjarvis * New user account
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02:08:55 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56434&oldid=56392 * Cjarvis * (+276) /* Introductions */
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02:53:07 <oerjan> <myname> is A related to asdf? <-- pretty much assuming it's the same person
02:54:29 <shachaf> but then why would one of them have asked the other one's permission to do something
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03:08:04 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
03:08:26 <imode> why can't storing trees in memory be as simple as storing a string. ;~;
03:09:28 <oerjan> . o O ( maybe imode wants ghc's compact regions )
03:09:55 <shachaf> imode: it can be if you just store complete trees hth
03:10:24 <imode> shachaf: well yeah but tree rewriting tyyypically doesn't deal with complete trees.
03:10:33 <imode> it'd be a massive space waster.
03:11:14 <shachaf> store all the data in one place and the shape in another place hth
03:11:15 <imode> plus the re-parenting of orphaned nodes and stuff upon rewrites.
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03:11:33 <imode> well yeah but it'd... still require a fixed number of bits per node regardless of data.
03:11:56 <shachaf> Well, you can store the shape pretty efficiently with fancy rank-select dictionaries or something.
03:12:28 <imode> yeah, succinct trees. but that's for relatively sparse read-only data. dynamically updatable succinct trees are much harder than that.
03:12:33 <shachaf> Not so sure about mutation.
03:12:59 <imode> something I considered early on (about last year) was storing unique paths through an infinite complete binary tree.
03:13:12 <shachaf> This reminds me of the other thing I was trying to figure out, which was about storing data in complete mostly-ordered trees.
03:13:29 <shachaf> (Rather than ordered mostly-complete trees like most balanced search trees.)
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03:13:54 <imode> I just don't get why people see trees/terms as more fundamental than strings in mathematics, I guess.
03:14:23 <imode> they're harder to work with, require bolting on binding and matching features onto whatever you to do to anything useful...
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03:15:18 <imode> maybe it's because we've been dealing with expressions that take the form of trees for however long expressional/equational reasoning has been around.
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03:24:53 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56435&oldid=56432 * A * (+0) /* Really? A shorter one */
03:48:53 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56436&oldid=56420 * Oerjan * (-167) That's nice, but unfortunately it doesn't terminate on 0.
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04:25:16 <myname> imode: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prüfer_sequence ?
04:42:44 <imode> myname: at a glance it doesn't seem like this'd permit easy modification. unless you can do traversal and modification solely based on the sequence alone
04:43:57 <imode> it looks like you'd be able to. it'd just be a little weird.
04:44:40 <imode> something I've also wondered is are there ways of compactly storing unlabeled trees?
04:49:34 <myname> the pure structure can be stored pretty compact
04:50:08 <myname> last year i had a code for that which basically just encodes branching to the left or right with bits
04:51:51 <myname> for trees where each node is either a leaf or has k children, you can store it with a 1 bit for going downwards and a 0 bit for going upwards again
04:52:14 <myname> oh, you don't even need k children for that
04:52:52 <myname> you may only receive an isomorphic tree through this, though
04:53:07 <myname> like, / is encoded as 10, but \ is as well
05:00:54 <imode> so you store a depth first traversal?
05:01:25 <imode> wait. isn't that just nested parens?
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05:33:13 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56437&oldid=56435 * A * (+1263) /* Use the visualizer */
05:33:54 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56438&oldid=56437 * A * (-27) /* Use the visualizer */
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06:49:15 <esowiki> [[Unless]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56439 * A * (+853) Created page with "Unless is a derivative of [[~ATH]]. ==Tutorial== ===The simplest possible Unless program=== T: ;All unnecessary things ===T=== This can be changed into anything. If it..."
06:56:53 <esowiki> [[--Unless]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56440 * A * (+854) Created page with "==Tutorial== ===The simplest possible Unless program=== That is a [[Null program]]. ===R=== Run something. (This can run anything) It usually runs a code. A tab or 4 spaces..."
06:57:49 <esowiki> [[--Unless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56441&oldid=56440 * A * (+3) /* The simplest possible Unless program */
06:58:52 <esowiki> [[--Unless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56442&oldid=56441 * A * (-34) /* ; */
07:01:04 <esowiki> [[--Unless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56443&oldid=56442 * A * (+239) /* Objects */
07:01:45 <esowiki> [[--Unless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56444&oldid=56443 * A * (+2) /* Objects */
07:06:26 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56445&oldid=56039 * A * (+196) /* ~-~! */
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07:10:07 <esowiki> [[--Unless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56446&oldid=56444 * A * (+250) /* Objects */
07:11:41 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56447&oldid=56445 * A * (+232) /* --Unless */
07:18:49 <esowiki> [[--Unless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56448&oldid=56446 * A * (+29) /* Tutorial */
07:19:25 <esowiki> [[--Unless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56449&oldid=56448 * A * (+35) /* Objects */
07:20:01 <esowiki> [[--Unless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56450&oldid=56449 * A * (+23) /* :something */
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08:59:59 <esowiki> [[OOOOL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56451 * A * (+436) Created page with "OOOOL is the acronym for "Object-Oriented Output Only Language". ==Tutorial== ===How to define a function=== To define a function, you make it like this: FUNC: (do someting)..."
09:00:30 <esowiki> [[OOOOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56452&oldid=56451 * A * (+9) /* How to output */
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11:18:43 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Yhara * New user account
11:45:11 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56453&oldid=56359 * Ais523 * (-304) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Ais523|Ais523]]
11:45:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] revision * Ais523 * Ais523 changed visibility of 2 revisions on page [[Brainfuck]]: content hidden: Copyright violation: contains content copied from Stack Exchange (https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/163590)
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13:17:40 <mehrdad> is there a channel about esoterism/
13:26:23 <HackEso> mehrdad: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
13:28:40 <mehrdad> Taneb: where do people talk about esotericm?
13:29:16 <izabera> taneb why don't you come to the go club on sunday
13:30:45 <Taneb> izabera: go the programming language, go the board game, or go the verb?
13:31:26 <izabera> well you know, it's still a pub and they have beer
13:32:02 <Taneb> Third excuse: I'm going to be playing board games in London that afternoon and I don't know when I'll get back
13:32:11 <Taneb> Other than those three reasons, I'd love to
13:32:15 <Taneb> It's pretty easy for me to get to
13:32:44 <izabera> it's on sunday evening every sunday
13:33:39 <izabera> come to the old ticket office this evening?
13:33:53 <izabera> i'll be there with a few friends from work
13:39:10 <Taneb> That's more doable
13:53:29 <Taneb> Is the old ticket office small enough that you'll recognize the approximately six foot tall (183cm) person with messy brown hair and thick eyebrows walking in the door
13:59:13 <izabera> come in with a rubiks cube in your hand
13:59:51 <izabera> too snowdeny or not enough rubiks cubes available?
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14:27:43 <esowiki> [[Nameless language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56454&oldid=37337 * BMO * (+391) hello world example wasn't valid, added infobox & reference implementation
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14:55:41 <esowiki> [[MediaWiki:Common.js]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56455 * Ais523 * (+203) the http:// URLs don't work well due to caching effects; if we visit the site in a sufficiently modern browser, do a JS redirect to https://
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15:12:38 <imode> so I retrofitted my interpreter to select the first applicable rule in the ruleset.
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15:14:31 <ZM> ais523: thank you so much for that
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15:23:36 <FireFly> Not presently, although have been in the UK fairly frequently the past.. half year or so
15:23:45 <FireFly> haven't been to Cambridge though
15:23:56 <Taneb> FireFly: you should, it's where I am
15:24:22 <Taneb> Or possibly that's a reason to avoid it
15:24:37 <FireFly> You should attend freenode live in november :D
15:24:55 <Taneb> Bristol's annoying to get to :/
15:25:17 <Taneb> I tried to go to the last one
15:25:34 <Taneb> Well, Cambridge is hard to get to unless you're in Cambridge, in which case it's hard to escape
15:25:34 <FireFly> EasyJet has a direct flight to Bristol nowadays
15:26:01 <Taneb> Stansted Airport's like half an hour from Cambridge by train
15:26:37 <FireFly> But yes, should visit Cambridge someday
15:26:59 <FireFly> I know enough people in the UK that I kinda want to make a tour de great britain..
15:27:05 <Taneb> I hear there's a group that play Go every Sunday
15:27:29 <Taneb> Is fizzie still in London?
15:29:15 <FireFly> My next UK visit will be in august/september, but.. wrong part of the country
15:29:32 <FireFly> (over by the border to wales basically, for EMFcamp)
15:30:31 <Taneb> A few of my friends are going to that
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15:31:25 <FireFly> I went to 34c3 last year, hopefully EMF is just as fun, hehe
15:31:26 <izabera> in london there are several go centers
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15:36:14 <FireFly> izabera: ona visit in the UK, or?
15:46:15 <izabera> been living here since november
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16:01:02 <imode> trying to find the shortest path between string rewriting and a usable programming language is difficult.
16:02:18 <Taneb> Maybe it'll go through Perl
16:02:35 <imode> it actually might go through SNOBOL.
16:13:03 <FireFly> you should also visit fnlive :p
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16:30:28 <imode> there has to be a shorter path than implementing RAM + a given instruction set.
17:20:48 <zzo38> I have written a tag system implementation in SQL; it is an easy Turing-complete system to implement using the recursive WITH clause in SQL.
17:21:22 <zzo38> WITH A(T) AS (SELECT '211' UNION ALL SELECT SUBSTR(T,3) || CASE SUBSTR(T,1,1) WHEN '1' THEN '3321H' WHEN '2' THEN '331' WHEN '3' THEN '33' END FROM A) SELECT T FROM A WHERE SUBSTR(T,1,1) = 'H' LIMIT 1;
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17:45:40 <imode> building expressiveness from nothing is hard.
17:47:54 <fizzie> There's a bunch of people here who work in London and live in Cambridge and commute daily, it can't be that hard to get to.
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17:49:09 <fizzie> Of course this place is right next to King's Cross, which is pretty optimal for Cambridgeing to/from.
17:57:49 <fizzie> Whoa, I think this was the first HTTP 451 "Unavailable For Legal Reasons" error I've gotten.
17:57:58 <fizzie> "We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore access cannot be granted at this time."
17:58:23 <fizzie> I guess that's one way of being GDPR compliant.
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18:20:49 <zzo38> What are the requirements for GDPR?
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18:45:03 <imode> what's more general than a hypergraph?
18:57:02 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/heromesh.ui/raw/exec.c?name=61678b6bb7fd8f9a32756361b39a5d4211cbde81 Do the pfunlink() and pflink() and objalloc() functions look like OK to you? Do you have suggestions to improve it if it is wrong?
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19:50:29 <esowiki> [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56456&oldid=54862 * DMC * (+143)
19:50:50 <esowiki> [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56457&oldid=56456 * DMC * (+0)
20:21:56 * Taneb has now met izabera
20:32:46 <Cale> `smlist 470 http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=470
20:32:47 <HackEso> smlist 470 http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=470: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
20:44:14 <shachaf> Didn't I list this one already?
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22:38:22 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56458&oldid=56162 * HereToAnnoy * (+20) U - Added User:Language
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01:27:44 <Warrigal> So I've got this decision problem.
01:29:38 <Warrigal> There are F types of fruits and P people. I have f_1 fruits of the first kind, f_2 fruits of the second kind, ..., f_F fruits of the F'th kind. I need to give p_1 fruits to the first person, ..., p_P fruits to the P'th person.
01:30:17 <Warrigal> However, each person will only accept fruits of particular kinds.
01:31:05 <Warrigal> There's an FxP matrix of booleans which indicates whether or not each person will accept each kind of fruit.
01:31:28 <Warrigal> The question is, can I give each person the required number of fruits, without giving any person a kind of fruit that they will not accept?
01:31:46 <Warrigal> Now, this sounds like an NP-complete problem. Is it?
01:36:36 <Warrigal> Pretty sure it's NP-hard because I can reduce set-packing to it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_packing
01:36:46 <Warrigal> "Suppose one has a finite set S and a list of subsets of S. Then, the set packing problem asks if some k subsets in the list are pairwise disjoint (in other words, no two of them share an element)."
01:38:07 <Warrigal> Okay, so I set F = |S| + 1. There is one type of fruit for each element of S, plus one more fruit, designated "otherwise".
01:38:49 <Warrigal> For each element of the list of subsets of S, there's a person who demands exactly one fruit, and that fruit is permitted to be either one of the fruits from the subset of S, or the "otherwise" fruit.
01:39:23 <Warrigal> There is also one person who demands enough "otherwise" fruits that k other people must receive fruits that are not "otherwise".
01:40:16 <Warrigal> There are only the people who demand exactly one fruit.
01:40:27 <Warrigal> I'm given exactly enough "otherwise" fruits that I can give them to all but k people.
01:40:35 <Warrigal> I'm also given exactly one of every other type of fruit.
01:42:46 <Warrigal> So, that proves that it's NP-hard.
01:48:46 <oerjan> Warrigal: if the p_i are given in unary, then yes, since the solution is polynomial size in the input data
01:48:51 <oerjan> otherwise, i'm not sure.
01:51:29 <Warrigal> I'm assuming that all the numbers are given in binary or decimal.
01:51:49 <oerjan> hm wait, it works even without
01:52:02 <shachaf> isn't this an integer linear programming problem anyway
01:52:11 <oerjan> the list of all assignments just tells how many of each fruit to each person
01:52:44 <oerjan> and that can be done in binary/decimal.
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02:22:28 <Warrigal> Yeah, it's probably obviously integer linear programming.
02:22:37 <Warrigal> Here's another way of stating it.
02:23:14 <Warrigal> You've got a grid of squares. Some of the squares have pencil marks in them. Each row and each column is labeled with a number.
02:23:35 <Warrigal> Can you erase pencil marks such that each row contains *at least* the designated number of marks, and each column contains *at most* the designated number of marks?
02:25:40 <shachaf> Oh! Of course the (universal) dual of Kleene star is complement(star(complement(L))). I don't know why I didn't think of that.
02:25:46 <shachaf> But, hmm, can you even define concatenation of universal finite automata?
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02:36:38 <esowiki> [[MediaWiki talk:Common.js]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56459 * Oerjan * (+472) That doesn't work for the cache problems
02:37:35 <esowiki> [[MediaWiki talk:Common.js]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56460&oldid=56459 * Oerjan * (+1) punct.
02:40:19 <oerjan> ^bf +[-->-[>>+>-----<<]<--<---]>-.>>>+.>>..+++[.>]<<<<.+++.------.<<-.
02:54:03 <oerjan> <imode> what's more general than a hypergraph? <-- supercalifragilisticexpialigraph hth
03:01:59 <shachaf> Here's the paper on dual concatenation: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304397505004056
03:02:06 <shachaf> (And dual regular expressions in general.)
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04:07:07 <imode> oerjan: it did help. :P
04:07:31 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56461&oldid=56434 * Yhara * (+65)
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07:15:10 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56462&oldid=56436 * A * (-14) /* brainfuck */
07:17:45 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56463&oldid=56462 * Oerjan * (+14) Undo revision 56462 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) (See previous edit summaries)
07:21:26 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56464&oldid=56438 * A * (+28) /* Really? A shorter one */
07:22:54 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56465&oldid=56313 * Oerjan * (+406) /* Your brainfuck truth-machine */ new section
07:25:03 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56466&oldid=56464 * A * (+65) /* Really? A shorter one */
07:29:02 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56467&oldid=56463 * A * (+109) /* brainfuck */
07:30:13 <oerjan> ^bf ,.[->+>+<<]++++++[->--------<]>[>[.]]!0
07:30:16 <oerjan> ^bf ,.[->+>+<<]++++++[->--------<]>[>[.]]!1
07:30:16 <fungot> 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ...
07:31:20 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56468&oldid=56467 * A * (-3) /* brainfuck */
07:32:18 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56469&oldid=56468 * A * (-106) /* brainfuck */
07:34:51 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56470&oldid=56465 * A * (+149) /* Your brainfuck truth-machine */
07:43:45 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56471&oldid=56470 * A * (+144) /* Your brainfuck truth-machine */
07:47:32 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56472&oldid=56471 * A * (-69) /* Your brainfuck truth-machine */
07:50:24 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56473&oldid=56472 * A * (+5) /* Your brainfuck truth-machine */
07:54:56 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56474&oldid=56466 * A * (+123)
07:54:56 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56475&oldid=56473 * Oerjan * (+207) /* Your brainfuck truth-machine */
07:59:26 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56476&oldid=56475 * A * (+175) /* Your brainfuck truth-machine */
08:02:16 <oerjan> ^bf ,.[->+>+<<]++++++[->--------<]>[>[.]]
08:02:22 <oerjan> ^bf ,.[->+>+<<]++++++[->--------<]>[>[.]]!0
08:05:13 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56477&oldid=56476 * Oerjan * (+163) Yes
08:10:40 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56478&oldid=56469 * A * (+103) /* brainfuck */
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15:25:27 <lambdabot> EGLL 071520Z AUTO 30008KT 250V020 9999 NCD 30/12 Q1023 NOSIG
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17:09:59 <int-e> hmm that doesn't work
17:10:15 <lambdabot> EGBB 071650Z 32008KT 280V010 CAVOK 28/09 Q1024
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18:31:45 <lambdabot> EGSC 071650Z 36006KT 300V090 CAVOK 28/10 Q1023
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18:41:04 <esowiki> [[User:Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56479&oldid=56398 * HereToAnnoy * (+4159) Language update + examples
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18:54:52 <Taneb> It's far too warm...
18:57:47 <Taneb> Somehow, Cambridge has an international airport with zero scheduled flights
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19:20:20 <esowiki> [[User:Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56480&oldid=56479 * HereToAnnoy * (-328) edits to a language about a wiki
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23:05:14 <esowiki> [[User:Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56481&oldid=56480 * Ais523 * (+52) add a few extra cats to this: [[Category:Unimplemented]] is particularly important as it may inspire someone to write an interpreter (which should be entirely possible!)
23:24:38 <esowiki> [[Fusion Tag]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56482 * Ais523 * (+2369) I wanted to prove this TC before posting it, but I'm struggling, so it makes more sense to post it to see what other people think about it
23:25:07 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56483&oldid=56458 * Ais523 * (+17) /* F */ +[[Fusion Tag]]
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23:26:13 <esowiki> [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56484&oldid=55708 * Ais523 * (+200) +[[Fusion Tag]]; notes about the current status of Feather
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23:41:05 <lambdabot> ENVA 072320Z 13008KT CAVOK 08/07 Q1023 RMK WIND 670FT 16007KT
23:41:27 <oerjan> <fizzie> E2HOT <-- E2DAMP
23:42:04 <oerjan> opening the door should help, i hope
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00:11:49 <zzo38> The truncate optimization in SQLite does not work with virtual tables. In Free Hero Mesh I have a annihilate() function to delete all objects efficiently, which can be used in many cases internally, although a SQL statement such as DELETE FROM "OBJECTS"; cannot know to call annihilate(), and will have to delete each object individually instead.
00:11:51 <esowiki> [[Chaingate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56485&oldid=51177 * Ais523 * (+1255) /* Computational class */ relationship to TAFMl4 (I hadn't consciously realised until now how similar the languages are; the reference to TAFM in the see also makes me think I might have done so unconsciously, though)
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00:34:09 <esowiki> [[Fusion Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56486&oldid=56482 * Ais523 * (+61) /* Computational class */ clarify
00:41:40 <oerjan> my first few attempts at writing som fusion tag programs have all entered infinite loops without ever getting past the first ^
00:42:12 <oerjan> i suppose an empty queue error is also possible.
00:48:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Fusion Tag]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56487 * Oerjan * (+408) /* Initialization */ new section
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02:50:34 <zzo38> I have been told they would add unbounded signed integers into JavaScript soon. I think that is good. They say you can't mix types of operands except with comparison operators, but I think that you should be allowed to mix types with the << and >> operators and only the type of the left operand is used as the type of the result value. What do you think?
02:51:44 <zzo38> (This would also help with many esolangs which use unbounded integers; some use signed and some use unsigned, but it doesn't matter)
02:52:08 <zzo38> (It can also help to make a proper SQLite binding, because then each SQL type has a corresponding type in JavaScript.)
02:55:15 <zzo38> I looked at Fusion Tag now, I try to think of it now
02:55:44 <Hooloovo0> yeah, <<, >> should be able to have smaller types as right-operands
02:56:29 <Hooloovo0> but I'd be careful of adding features to languages specifically to make them work well with another language like SQL
02:57:14 <Hooloovo0> JS is already off the deep end in terms of being pretty complicated and /weird/ and not being able to go back for legacy reasons
02:57:22 <zzo38> That isn't specifically the point; it is just one advantage I thought of.
03:01:03 <zzo38> One thing I wanted is 64-bit integers, and other thing is a goto command. This unbounded integers is a suitable substitute for 64-bit integers, though.
03:02:04 <zzo38> However, goto can be implemented with a preprocessor, at least.
03:02:11 <Hooloovo0> 64-bit ints should be standard for most things nowadays anyway
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03:36:34 <oerjan> zzo38: if my case analysis is correct, two 0s is not enough for a fusion tag program to get past the first ^ command.
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03:41:12 <oerjan> maybe i'll just paste that
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03:50:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:Fusion Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56488&oldid=56487 * Oerjan * (+675) /* Initialization */ Some analysis
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04:21:32 <zzo38> Another variant of a 2-tag system could be that instead of using only the first number and discarding the second one, you combine the first two numbers using some operation such as addition, bitwise OR, bitwise XOR, or subtraction. (Other than subtraction, these are commutative and I don't know how the commutativity affects the computational class of it)
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06:34:53 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56489&oldid=56478 * A * (+229) /* ZOMBIE */
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06:35:31 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56490&oldid=56489 * A * (+1) /* Brainfuck */
06:38:52 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56491&oldid=56490 * A * (-13) /* Cheating Versions */
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06:57:56 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56492&oldid=56491 * A * (-1) /* pbrain */
07:00:00 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56493&oldid=56492 * A * (-2) /* pbrain */
07:02:54 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56494&oldid=56493 * A * (+34) /* pbrain */
07:04:24 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56495&oldid=56494 * A * (+2) /* pbrain */
07:04:37 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56496&oldid=56495 * A * (-36) /* pbrain */
07:07:25 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56497&oldid=56496 * A * (+2) /* pbrain */
07:07:51 <Hooloovo0> can someone tell pbrain to use the damn edit button?
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09:41:23 <esowiki> [[~This=That]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56498 * A * (+1826) Created page with "'''This=That''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] by [[User:A]], and is made up entirely of variables. Each line is just a case-sensitive variable name, followed by <co..."
09:42:49 <esowiki> [[~This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56499&oldid=56498 * A * (+0)
09:45:17 <esowiki> [[~This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56500&oldid=56499 * A * (+1)
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10:06:31 <esowiki> [[~This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56501&oldid=56500 * A * (-9)
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10:20:21 <esowiki> [[~This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56502&oldid=56501 * A * (-1)
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11:15:32 <esowiki> [[~This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56503&oldid=56502 * A * (+1236) /* Example programs */
11:16:11 <esowiki> [[~This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56504&oldid=56503 * A * (+0) /* Endless Square Numbers Program */
11:17:55 <esowiki> [[~This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56505&oldid=56504 * A * (-40) /* Example programs */
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11:20:30 <esowiki> [[~This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56506&oldid=56505 * A * (-2) /* Endless Bottles of Beer Program */
11:26:28 <esowiki> [[~This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56507&oldid=56506 * A * (+1) /* Cat Program (Until QUIT is inputted) */
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11:41:49 <esowiki> [[Var=Bar]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56508 * A * (+1574) Created page with "'''Var=Bar''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] by [[User:A]], and is made up entirely of variables. Each line is just a case-sensitive variable name, followed by <code..."
11:42:01 <esowiki> [[Var=Bar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56509&oldid=56508 * A * (+5) /* Example */
11:44:07 <esowiki> [[Var=Bar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56510&oldid=56509 * A * (-8)
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12:56:43 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56511&oldid=56497 * A * (+55) /* Urn */
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13:22:31 <esowiki> [[Far]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56512 * GibsonGeorge * (+2836) Create
13:24:17 <esowiki> [[Far]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56513&oldid=56512 * GibsonGeorge * (+122) Add link to specification
13:26:51 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56514&oldid=56483 * GibsonGeorge * (+10) Add link to Far
13:30:44 <esowiki> [[Turth-machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56515 * A * (+806) Created page with "'''Turth-machine''' is a simple pseudo-code programming language. ==Syntax== {| class="wikitable" |- | Ask for ''variable'' || input a variable |- | If the ''Something'' 'Con..."
13:32:01 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56516&oldid=56511 * A * (+135) /* Trigger */
13:32:08 <esowiki> [[Turth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56517&oldid=56515 * A * (-1)
13:32:38 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56518&oldid=56516 * A * (-1) /* Turth-machine */
13:32:41 <esowiki> [[Turth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56519&oldid=56517 * A * (-1)
13:35:50 <esowiki> [[Fake-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56520&oldid=56407 * A * (-40)
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13:52:06 <esowiki> [[Code pointer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56521 * A * (+279) Created page with "==Syntax== {| class="wikitable" |- | { || Enter loop if code pointer#2 does not reach the end of program. |- | . || Print what the code pointer#2 is pointing. |- | > || move c..."
13:53:11 <esowiki> [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56522&oldid=54905 * A * (+30) /* Cheating Quines */
14:03:19 <esowiki> [[Code pointer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56523&oldid=56521 * A * (+133) /* Syntax */
14:04:17 <esowiki> [[Code pointer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56524&oldid=56523 * A * (+39) /* Quine */
14:04:35 <esowiki> [[Code pointer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56525&oldid=56524 * A * (+12) /* Syntax */
14:06:31 <esowiki> [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56526&oldid=56522 * A * (+30) /* Capuirequiem */
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15:14:55 <esowiki> [[Annoying Alice 2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56527&oldid=55651 * BoutonIA * (+1) Fixed an error due to a missing space
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19:46:25 <wob_jonas> the four days of vacation were great. what did I miss here?
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19:50:26 <zzo38> I forgot, but you can look at the logs
19:51:38 <zzo38> Do you know any mahjong playing?
19:51:53 <wob_jonas> yeah. I've grepped the logs, and ais523 didn't answer my two questions about the omnitell writeup yet
19:52:16 <wob_jonas> uh, a friend tried to teach some mahjong to me once, but I gave up quickly. it's just not my style of game.
19:52:46 <zzo38> There are many different kind of mahjong game; I know the Japanese game
19:54:47 <wob_jonas> I've no clue which mahjong game this was. I didn't even get as far as knowing all the rules. I only ever played a few matches.
19:56:23 <wob_jonas> but it seemed like a version of rummy played with a different set of cards and with a more complicated scoring system
19:58:07 <zzo38> Yes, it is kind of like that (although that is true with nearly any mahjong game and is not specific to the Japanese game).
19:58:10 <wob_jonas> there are four players taking turns, each player always has a set of stones (which is what they call cards) whose number is fixed to 13 or something except you draw one at the start of your turn and discard one at its end, and your stones can be in your hand (hidden) or put down in combinations that you later can't easily modify (but you can add to
19:58:48 <wob_jonas> and there are some special rules about how you can end the game by emptying your hand
19:59:57 <wob_jonas> and if you put a combination of cards on the table, then other players can see it but they can never modify it, and players can sometimes use the stone that another player discards
20:00:58 <wob_jonas> it's similar to rummy in most of this this, except that rummy is played with a double deck of poker cards and the number of players isn't fixed to 4
20:01:18 <wob_jonas> but then rummy also has different variations
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20:03:19 <zzo38> All of that is true of any kind of mahjong (except "there are some special rules about how you can end the game by emptying your hand"; I am not sure what that means)
20:04:15 <zzo38> One feature specific to the Japanese mahjong is that one tile in the wall is flipped so that you can see it; if you have the number that is one more than that one and of the same suit, you earn extra points.
20:05:40 <wob_jonas> zzo38: that means three things: firstly you aren't always allowed to empty your hand, there are conditions depending on what combinations you'd have on the table for whether that's allowed or not; secondly I think there are options for whether you discard a stone in the turn you do that or not and one of those options is rare; and there's some spec
20:05:40 <wob_jonas> ial rule about using another player's discard differently if you're emptying your hand
20:07:53 <zzo38> If "emptying your hand" means you expose all of your tiles because you win, that is true in any mahjong game. You usually have to make a regular hand, there are also some irregular hands, and you never discard a stone on the turn you win (if self-drawn; if you win by someone's discard, you take that one and it completes your hand; a complete hand is always 14 tiles plus the number of four of a kind)
20:08:56 <wob_jonas> and yes, by emptying your hand I mean you put all your stones on the battlefield from your hand and end the game
20:11:07 <zzo38> In some versions there are other conditions that you need to win too, such as in Japanese game you need to have a yaku as well as forming a regular hand (irregular hands automatically have a yaku)
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20:25:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56528&oldid=55166 * Galaxtone * (+25) /* Uhm, "program", It looks like a "programming language" to me */
20:27:10 <esowiki> [[The Insane Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56529&oldid=55481 * Galaxtone * (+30)
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22:15:23 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/MzvC/text well I made a quarter of an RPN calculator with unary...
22:26:11 <imode> I just don't see anything else you can do with string rewrite systems. maybe it's because I'm unoriginal, but it seems like you just end up reducing things to machine-like semantics anyway.
22:30:37 <imode> over traditional TMs, they just buy you extra context and the opportunity for concurrency/parallelism.
22:30:44 <imode> and nondeterminism.
22:31:28 <imode> but they don't buy you expressivity outside of that. there are no alternative ways of expressing things like the above other than machine descriptons.
22:33:33 <imode> I guess it's because I'm specifying semantics, rather than syntax.
22:34:13 <imode> rather, I'm _reducing_ semantics to rewrite operations, instead of solely specifying valid syntactical forms.
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22:45:51 <imode> I think the term used for what I'm doing would be operational semantics.
22:51:58 <imode> thing is I can't wrap my head around graph rewriting without some kind of variable binding scheme. you can't do graph rewriting without specifying subgraphs, so how do you specify the "shape" of a given part of the graph without resorting to variables representing nodes or edges.
22:52:46 <imode> maybe kolmogorov machines or their ilk provide some light on that but I didn't immediately see how to reduce general graph pattern matching + rewriting to them.
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02:22:14 <zzo38> Now I have two bugs in SQLite that I have reported have been fixed (and one mistake in the documentation I have reported has been fixed).
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04:03:50 <esowiki> [[Far]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56530&oldid=56513 * Oerjan * (+6) wikify a couple things
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04:22:45 <oerjan> fizzie: is mail from esolang working?
04:22:58 <oerjan> oh never mind, it just arrived
04:25:09 * oerjan is trying to see if he's receiving mail from other places than agora
04:25:28 <oerjan> although since the bounces are intermittent, this is not very reliable...
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05:15:34 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56531&oldid=55036 * Galaxtone * (+7408) Putting this here for showing someone and i'll ask the owner if it's ok to replace his whole page.
05:15:55 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56532&oldid=56531 * Galaxtone * (-7408) Cleared, I'll use the link to before this edit to show it off.
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06:32:21 <oerjan> tarvek can be a bit reckless...
06:32:58 <oerjan> also, europa cuisine remains weird even outside mechanicsburg.
06:35:11 <oerjan> (the last one is technically for today, but not very spoilery.)
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06:52:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Fusion Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56533&oldid=56488 * Oerjan * (+716) Three zeros works a bit better
06:54:58 <oerjan> the <main> part gets a bit squeezed, but it's there.
06:56:13 <FireFly> pondering re-bingeing GG in order to catch up and make another attempt at following it
06:57:16 * oerjan occasionally ruins his sleeping plans by binging a few sections.
06:58:52 <FireFly> I think last I read was fairly soon after they got onto the train
06:59:17 <FireFly> whch was probably ... a year and a half ago realtime, or so
06:59:20 <oerjan> that's only about 3 years ago hth
06:59:54 <oerjan> one of the characters lampshaded how long it had been in-comic, not too long ago
07:00:32 <FireFly> I wonder how long the plot will be
07:00:45 <int-e> FireFly: it's an easy way to waste a weekend ;-)
07:00:57 <int-e> I mean "spend" ;-)
07:01:20 <FireFly> One weekend might possibly be enough to catch up, but deifnitely not if I want to re-read from the start
07:01:51 <FireFly> (which is tempting, since I've forgotten a lot of plot bits)
07:02:02 <oerjan> i wonder if Archive Binge is still working, and whether it ever supported girl genius
07:03:12 <oerjan> dmm's Archive Binge, that is, apparently someone else has started something by the same name
07:03:20 <FireFly> I think when I first binged GG it probably took me a week or two of fairly focused bingeing during a summer break
07:04:17 <FireFly> I guess a second readthrough might be somewhat more skimmy since I probably mostly need reminders of the plot
07:07:26 <oerjan> when i first started it was still divided into two "classes", because they didn't put all the old pre-web comics on the web immediately
07:08:52 <oerjan> so there were in effect first one binge for the oldest part, then several months (years) of individual posts, until one glorious day when the old class caught up to the new one.
07:09:43 <int-e> let's see.. 2350 strips... at 1min/strip (which is low) is about 40h... a weekend may not be enough anymore ;-)
07:10:48 <int-e> right, hrm I forgot how they handled the transition
07:10:56 <oerjan> in the words of moloch von zinzer, "...how is _possible_ that this could surprise _any_ of you people?"
07:11:01 <int-e> (from GG 101 to GG)
07:11:15 <oerjan> aka through a month of server crashes and quota run-outs
07:11:33 <oerjan> http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20121126
07:12:12 <oerjan> aka "badly, but they got better"
07:12:19 <int-e> but I thought that the archive *now* just has 3 stips a week since 20021104
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07:13:10 <int-e> time machines are such useful devices
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07:15:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Far]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56534 * Plokmijnuhby * (+266) Created page with "== Stacks == There are several commands which refer to "the stack". I assume this is Stack0, but if so I can't see any way to change Stack1. Is there a way to change which sta..."
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09:44:41 <wob_jonas> zzo38: nice! which two (bugs in SQLite)? I also have two, the int-float comparison bug, and some statement parser thing.
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10:40:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Far]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56535&oldid=56534 * Ais523 * (+314) a guess as to what this means
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12:40:13 <esowiki> [[User:Nobody]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56536&oldid=54921 * Nobody * (+33)
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13:00:29 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56537&oldid=56433 * Digital Hunter * (+48) /* Other built-in functions */
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16:09:32 <esowiki> [[Spoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56538&oldid=45837 * SnoringFrog * (+59) /* External resources */
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16:51:24 <zzo38> wob_jonas: One is a problem with functions using sqlite3_set_auxdata() in triggers, the other one is if an authorizer callback denies some steps of creating a WITHOUT ROWID table it will segfault.
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17:19:23 <ais523> huh, the newly updated Magic Tournament Rules are now actually clear enough to work out what happens if someone sets up a Turing Machine
17:19:42 <ais523> what happens is: you have to play it out (unless someone concedes) up until it repeats a previous state
17:20:02 <ais523> I don't think this overrides the bit of the comprehensive rules which makes the game a draw if it has no way to end, though
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17:24:11 <ais523> [18:22] <ais523> imode: you can't encode arbitrary graphs in eodermdrome, only ones with 26 vertices or less; to encode a graph of that size, you just come up with an arbitrary path that goes through every point (this is easy as you can retrace your steps if necessary), letter every point, and write out the letters in order
17:24:12 <ais523> [18:23] <ais523> 104.4b If a game that’s not using the limited range of influence option (including a two-player game) somehow enters a “loop” of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action don’t result in a draw.
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17:24:50 <ais523> hmm, arguably 104.4b doesn't cause a draw in the case of a nontrivial infinite loop either
17:26:13 <ais523> on the other hand, the whole point of this construction is that there are no actions in the loop
17:26:19 <ais523> it's just triggered abilities triggering each other in a chain
17:26:32 <ais523> this might lead to problems related to, say, the three Oblivion Ring loop, which also contains no actions
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17:37:22 <imode> ais523: thanks for the info! I guess I'm wondering if there's a possibility using a larger (possibly infinite) alphabet.
17:37:56 <ais523> the format generalises easily enough
17:38:01 <ais523> but it's not very convenient to work with
17:39:02 <imode> starting to notice that. graph rewriting isn't as elegant as I thought.
17:39:59 <ais523> it's more usable if you have labelled nodes
17:40:22 <ais523> eodermdrome is basically a tarpitisation that unlabels them, meaning that you have to attach little subgraphs to the nodes to tell them apart
17:41:55 <imode> that honestly sounds cool, because you can craft labels by attaching differently shaped subgraphs to nodes.
17:42:14 <imode> but I guess it doesn't.. really buy you any expressiveness.
17:42:53 <ais523> right, it's the tarpit approach
17:42:56 <ais523> simplicity over usability
17:43:24 <imode> the reason I asked you about encoding arbitrary graphs was that I'm trying to take the approach of simplicity first, usability later.
17:44:10 <imode> it'd be nice to develop a graph-rewriting language with something like kolmogorov machines as a basis, and compile larger, more complex rules down to it.
17:44:43 <imode> but I can't find any other methods that don't use variable binding.
17:45:48 <ais523> I think the simplest way to make it somewhat usable would be eodermdrome except that the nodes remember which letter they have
17:46:06 <ais523> and probably using identifiers rather than letters so you have an infinite supply
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17:47:07 <imode> that's what I was thinking initially. I haven't looked into how to do/translate useful algorithms (like binary incrementation, or whatever the hell I've been doing with SRSs) over to eodermdrome yet.
17:48:39 <imode> wrapping my head around it hasn't been that fruitful. yet. :P
17:48:43 <ais523> you'd probably want to add explicit syntax for wildcards in the patterns, too, to make things more readable
17:48:58 <ais523> rather than just "anything that exists on both sides is a wildcard"
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17:53:26 <imode> so the concept is that every vertex in the graph is uniquely addressable from every other vertex. rewriting is always local to the first node specified in a rule, so you take a path through the graph.
17:54:01 <imode> you then replace the matched path with the new one from the rule set, adding or removing nodes as needed.
17:54:43 <imode> that's a neat way of handling cycle creation.
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17:55:57 <imode> but if I were to go with identifiers/words, I wonder what constructing something like a labeled tree would look like.
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18:20:30 <imode> I find it weird that pointer machines are so obscure.
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18:31:27 <zzo38> ais523: Even so I would think that unless you use subgames it doesn't make it more than Turing-complete (although it still makes it impossible to actually implement). Since it will end in a "implicit draw" even without such a rule (although omitting the rule would mean that a subgame getting in a infinite loop would end the main game in such a "implicit draw" instead of the subgame).
18:31:44 <zzo38> I do not keep track of the Magic Tournament rules.
18:32:02 <zzo38> (I do keep track of the game rules whenever they change, though.)
18:32:50 <zzo38> The game would go on forever if there is no rule to stop it, and because of that, it ends in a "implicit draw", that it goes on forever, I should think
18:35:31 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56539&oldid=56532 * Galaxtone * (+9911) Showing creator of surtic for review.
18:35:51 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56540&oldid=56539 * Galaxtone * (-9911) Clearing, using edit link to old page to show it.
18:37:05 <zzo38> wob_jonas: I told you now what bugs I reported have been fixed in SQLite, as you have asked
18:37:11 <esowiki> [[TLOWScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56541&oldid=54417 * ZM * (+41) Update links
18:39:09 <zzo38> Here is the reply to my report (the reply also includes my original message): https://www.mail-archive.com/sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org/msg111043.html
18:39:52 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: smlit: not found
18:39:56 <HackEso> smlist 471: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
18:44:14 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56542&oldid=56537 * Digital Hunter * (-23) /* Loops & Blocks */
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18:58:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56543&oldid=56528 * Galaxtone * (-199) Deleted, because I wanted to.
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19:32:28 <esowiki> [[99 bottles of beer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56544&oldid=54598 * Galaxtone * (+9) Looked like it was suppose to be one whole code block.
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19:45:05 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Talk:Surtic]]": Author request: all revisions were by [[User:Galaxtone]]
19:49:22 <impomatic> Hmmm... no page for Funge Wars on the wiki.
19:49:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Fusion Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56545&oldid=56533 * Ais523 * (+773) the main section doesn't work in that example because it's not large enough to fit a reference to anything but the bootstrap
19:53:57 <impomatic> FungeWars or Fungewars or BefungeWars? https://sourceforge.net/projects/fungewars/?source=typ_redirect https://github.com/electrodude/fungewars http://www.phlamethrower.co.uk/befunge/befwars.php
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21:00:15 <esowiki> [[Fungewars]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56546 * Impomatic * (+509) Create page
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21:18:57 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56547&oldid=56453 * Impomatic * (+110) /* External resources */ link to Mutato
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21:20:08 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56548&oldid=56547 * Impomatic * (+0) /* External resources */ moved link to correct section
21:22:07 <impomatic> The programming language used by Tierra probably meets the definition of an esoteric programming language - " a computer programming language designed to experiment with weird ideas"
21:36:43 <zzo38> What programming language is that?
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21:40:46 <impomatic> zzo38 there's a description of it here http://korsu.mbnet.fi/tierra.html
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22:54:24 <imode> idea: predicated rules for SRS. "if all these patterns are present in the string, apply this rule."
22:58:14 <imode> <pattern1> <pattern2> <pattern3> ... <patternN> <::> <lhs> -> <rhs>
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23:57:37 <esowiki> [[User:Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56549&oldid=56481 * HereToAnnoy * (+720) Registers made semi-usable and string manipulation
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04:35:08 <esowiki> [[++Brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56550 * A * (+1180) Created page with "{| class="wikitable" !Command !Description |- | style="text-align:center"| <code>></code> |Move the pointer to the right |- | style="text-align:center"| <code><</code> |..."
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04:44:15 <esowiki> [[Stupid]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56551 * A * (+1487) Created page with "'''Stupid''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] by [[User:A]], and is made up entirely of variables. Each line is just a case-sensitive variable name, followed by <code>..."
04:52:03 <esowiki> [[Stupid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56552&oldid=56551 * A * (+50)
05:01:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56553&oldid=50307 * A * (+116) /* Miscellaneous */
05:04:02 <esowiki> [[Stupid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56554&oldid=56552 * A * (-457)
05:04:50 <esowiki> [[Stupid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56555&oldid=56554 * A * (-27)
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05:10:31 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56556&oldid=56518 * A * (+47) /* Stlang */
05:11:51 <esowiki> [[Stupid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56557&oldid=56555 * A * (-84)
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05:13:27 <esowiki> [[Stupid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56558&oldid=56557 * A * (-123)
05:30:06 <esowiki> [[Bit Stupid]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56559 * A * (+371) Created page with "'''Bit Stupid''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] by [[User:A]]. {| class="wikitable" |- | <code>,</code> || inputs the register. |- | <code>.</code> || outputs a varia..."
05:31:48 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56560&oldid=56556 * A * (+28) /* Bitoven */
05:33:54 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56561&oldid=56560 * A * (-1) /* Bit Stupid */
05:35:08 <esowiki> [[Bit Stupid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56562&oldid=56559 * A * (+4)
05:38:41 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56563&oldid=56561 * A * (+49) /* Bit Stupid */
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05:45:53 <esowiki> [[Stop]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56564 * A * (+335) Created page with "'''Stop''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] by [[User:A]]. {| class="wikitable" |- | <code>,</code> || inputs the register. |- | <code>:</code> || starts a <code>do...w..."
05:47:12 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56565&oldid=56563 * A * (+21) /* Stlang */
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06:58:19 <esowiki> [[Braine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56566 * A * (+277) Created page with "== Instructions == {| class="wikitable" | > || Increment the current byte and move the pointer right. Overflows to 0 when gets 255. |- | < || Brainfuck < |- | style="text-alig..."
06:59:23 <esowiki> [[Braine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56567&oldid=56566 * A * (-57) /* Instructions */
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07:43:06 <esowiki> [[Something?Oops!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56568 * A * (+776) Created page with "'''Something?Oops!''' is a simple esolang by [[User:Ihope127]]. The syntax is as follows: Statement: "<identifier>?Oops<variable>" Identifier: A nonnegative integer or a va..."
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07:49:29 <esowiki> [[Something?Oops!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56569&oldid=56568 * A * (+103)
07:49:56 <esowiki> [[Something?Oops!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56570&oldid=56569 * A * (+8) /* Example */
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07:53:12 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56571&oldid=56565 * A * (+92) /* Solo */
07:54:43 <esowiki> [[Something?Oops!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56572&oldid=56570 * A * (-7)
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08:14:22 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56573&oldid=56553 * Oerjan * (-116) Undo revision 56553 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) (New suggestions should go on talk page)
08:16:52 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56574&oldid=56115 * Oerjan * (+245) /* Simplification */ new section
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08:19:08 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Igorrto * New user account
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08:25:54 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56575&oldid=56461 * Igorrto * (+187) /* Introductions */
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08:47:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:Fusion Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56576&oldid=56545 * Oerjan * (+767) It does seem difficult
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08:54:21 <esowiki> [[Esketit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56577 * Igorrto * (+837) Created page with "'''Esketit''' is an esoteric programming language that is designed to look like Lil Pumps song "Esketit". ==Syntax== Code always starts with CB on the beat ===Declaring va..."
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16:49:32 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56578&oldid=56542 * Galaxtone * (+6195) Page redone and approved by creator.
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16:52:37 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56579&oldid=56571 * Galaxtone * (+15) Updated Surtic language, Updated truth-machine program.
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17:26:57 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56580&oldid=56578 * Galaxtone * (+2) Final change of string commands
17:29:03 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56581&oldid=56580 * Galaxtone * (+274) Final change to reference commands
17:34:22 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56582&oldid=56581 * Galaxtone * (+236) Added some more details.
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17:44:31 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56583&oldid=56027 * Igorrto * (+90) /* General languages */
17:45:29 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56584&oldid=56582 * Galaxtone * (+628) Added some rules for I/O handling and such...
17:48:25 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56585&oldid=56584 * Galaxtone * (-166) /* C */
17:49:20 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56586&oldid=56585 * Galaxtone * (+7) Fixed small formatting issue.
17:53:53 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56587&oldid=56586 * Galaxtone * (-158) Ok, I'm done, Reviewed it twice, It's done, If anyone notices small errors, Please fix.
18:03:07 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56588&oldid=56574 * Ais523 * (+579) /* Simplification */ too subjective
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18:15:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:Fusion Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56589&oldid=56576 * Ais523 * (+1140) I think I've found a solution
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18:17:58 <esowiki> [[Braine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56590&oldid=56567 * Ais523 * (+38) add a line break; this is a straightforward example of an FSM
18:18:22 <esowiki> [[Braine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56591&oldid=56590 * Ais523 * (+0) fix cat name
18:24:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Something?Oops!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56592 * Ais523 * (+965) the computational class question here is pretty interesting
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18:38:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Fusion Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56593&oldid=56589 * Oerjan * (+207) Ninjaed
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20:18:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:Something?Oops!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56594&oldid=56592 * Ais523 * (+1292) it's at least a PDA, there's only one operation that might make it a bit more powerful than that
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20:56:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:Something?Oops!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56595&oldid=56594 * Ais523 * (+1712) actually TC under some reasonable guesses as to negative-IP behaviour
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21:15:07 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56596&oldid=56587 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* B */
21:15:35 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56597&oldid=56596 * Digital Hunter * (+1) /* S */
21:16:29 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56598&oldid=56597 * Digital Hunter * (+59) /* Loop Statements */
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23:29:24 <boily> fungot: eternal nostril.
23:29:25 <fungot> boily: um i actually had met somebody just somebody like me to
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02:31:07 <esowiki> [[Turing-machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56599 * A * (+939) Created page with "==Syntax== All of the rules look like this: <i>cnd.</i><i>num.</i>:cnd.direction num like: Q1:E<0 If the condition is Q, and the number on the tape is 1, the change the cond..."
02:34:35 <esowiki> [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56600&oldid=56599 * A * (+87) /* Computation */
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02:41:43 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56601&oldid=56579 * A * (+57) /* Turth-machine */
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04:07:51 <esowiki> [[User:Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56602&oldid=56549 * HereToAnnoy * (+207) Fixed Popular Problems example
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08:19:11 <esowiki> [[Esketit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56603&oldid=56577 * Igorrto * (+155) Added alternative Hello World
08:19:34 <esowiki> [[Esketit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56604&oldid=56603 * Igorrto * (+6) /* Hello World(alternative) */
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09:08:26 <esowiki> [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56605&oldid=56600 * Oerjan * (+65) Confusing name, and no.
09:12:10 <oerjan> if he'd had states and symbols reversed, it would be more troublesome because of ais523's proof.
09:14:16 <shachaf> but it has "turing" and "machine" right in the name
09:16:39 <shachaf> my new esolang is a turing machine with any number of states but only one symbol, is it tc twh
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09:34:54 <Taneb> shachaf: it is equivalent to some turing machines so it's totally tc hth
09:38:04 <shachaf> also the symbol is an unholy pentagram that summons a demon to do your bidding
09:38:09 <shachaf> wait, are pentagrams good luck or bad luck
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09:38:43 <Taneb> shachaf: have you tried #esoteric on DAL.net?
09:39:06 <HackEso> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
09:39:44 <shachaf> Taneb: Do you like Day convolution?
09:40:06 <Taneb> I don't know it very well
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09:43:05 <shachaf> how about regular convolution
09:43:28 <Taneb> It all seems a bit convoluted to me
09:44:06 <shachaf> How should I motivate tensor covariance and contravariance for someone who's used to thinking of tensors as arrays of numbers?
09:45:29 <Taneb> Start by showing them some things that behave as tensors but aren't arrays of numbers?
09:46:49 <shachaf> How should I understand tensor covariance and contravariance myself?
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09:47:03 <shachaf> I have a sense of it but it's not as helpful as I'd like.
09:47:31 <shachaf> Also how should I think of a double-contravariant tensor T^i^j?
09:47:42 <shachaf> T_i^j and T_i_j both make more sense to me.
09:47:53 <Taneb> Find a bunch of examples and prove the relevant laws until you get an intuition for it
09:48:07 <Taneb> I'm out of my depth here by quite a way, I'm afraid
09:51:00 <Taneb> These abstractions are like monads, in the sense that most analogies are going to be misleading
09:51:32 <shachaf> They're also like monads in that monads are a kind of tensor in the appropriate category.
09:52:24 <shachaf> (T^x_{j_i} for each i in N. Or something.)
09:52:41 <shachaf> What about trace, how should I think of that?
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10:06:28 <Taneb> I have a really bad intuition for trace
10:08:04 <Taneb> Bsaed on the category of bi-directional circuits
10:10:23 <shachaf> Trace in most categories makes sense.
10:10:30 <shachaf> I mean most traced monoidal categories.
10:10:44 <shachaf> But it's hard to translate that intuition to vector spaces.
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10:43:48 <shachaf> mniip: monoids and comonoids are also just kinds of tensor families hth
10:44:43 <shachaf> What is trace for the category of endofunctors with composition?
10:45:18 <shachaf> Lots of monoidal categories have traces.
10:47:10 <shachaf> ...Maybe not this one, though.
10:47:54 <shachaf> I guess it would look like (forall a. u (f a) -> u (g a)) -> f a -> g a
10:48:00 <shachaf> Or (forall a. f (u a) -> g (u a)) -> f a -> g a
10:50:05 <Taneb> shachaf: you need dual objects to have trace,r ight?
10:50:42 <shachaf> No, trace is more general.
10:50:55 <shachaf> If you have duals you can define it in terms of them, though.
10:51:20 <mniip> next you're going to tell me categories have determinants
10:51:42 <shachaf> Not so sure about determinant.
10:51:51 <shachaf> I feel like trace is more fundamental but also I don't understand it.
10:52:15 <shachaf> But if you have tensor product and trace you can define composition in terms of that.
10:52:23 <mniip> oh just multiply (end) all eigenvalues
10:53:28 <shachaf> Is the trace the coend of eigenvalues?
10:55:54 <shachaf> I know what scalars are, I guess.
10:57:58 <shachaf> So if f : A -> A and x : I -> A and k : I -> I, and f . x = x . k, then x is an eigenelement of f with eigenvalue k?
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11:21:04 <mniip> I don't know, I just made it up
11:23:10 <shachaf> I don't know what the end thing would mean but I think there might be something to this definition of eigenvalues.
11:23:24 <shachaf> If the only scalar is id, then this gives you the usual definition of fixed points.
11:24:04 <shachaf> (So that's what you get if your tensor is categorical product.)
11:25:15 <shachaf> But what does it mean to add eigenvalues?
11:25:39 <shachaf> Multiplying them is easier.
11:26:00 <shachaf> You can just compose them, I guess, because scalars commute. (Or you can tensor them and probably get the same thing?)
11:26:49 <shachaf> Though what's the multiplicity of an eigenvalue?
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12:56:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Surtic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56606 * Digital Hunter * (+569) Created page with "==Idea from [[User:Digital Hunter]]== Hey, this message is technically addressed to [[User:Galaxtone]], but anyone else is welcome to provide ideas and the like. Instead of u..."
12:58:41 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56607&oldid=56598 * Digital Hunter * (+92)
12:59:47 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56608&oldid=56607 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Examples */
13:00:06 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56609&oldid=56608 * Digital Hunter * (+8) /* Examples */
13:02:56 <esowiki> [[Talk:Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56610&oldid=56606 * Digital Hunter * (+124) /* WHOOPS completely forgot about this */ new section
13:03:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56611&oldid=56610 * Digital Hunter * (+101) /* WHOOPS completely forgot about this */
13:05:43 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56612&oldid=56609 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* S */
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14:42:20 <izabera> it would be cool if you could write an elf binary that interprets a brainfuck program, and that elf binary can itself be interpreted as a brainfuck program to produce the same result
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14:46:43 <alercah> that seems fairly trivial actually?
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14:48:25 <alercah> but it feels like it's mostly just "write the non-bf program" -> "modify the code not to contain any of BF's control characters" -> "add the BF code in a data section" -> "verify that the ELF headers don't mess you up and, if they do, twiddle a bit until it works"
14:53:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56613&oldid=56611 * Digital Hunter * (-225) /* WHOOPS completely forgot about this */
14:59:06 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56614&oldid=56612 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* S */ I made the call for concatenate K and the call for "set character at a point to value in a cell" P, so that they didn't get mixed up with C and S for cells and strings
15:01:04 <esowiki> [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56615&oldid=56605 * Plokmijnuhby * (+78)
15:02:14 <izabera> alercah: does that count as trivial in your books?
15:05:29 <alercah> izabera: it's not trivial to do
15:05:31 <alercah> but it's a trivial problem
15:06:26 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56616&oldid=56614 * Digital Hunter * (-1) /* If Statements */ idk but I think it'll make interpreters easier
15:06:56 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56617&oldid=56616 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Infinite Cat */
15:11:29 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56618&oldid=56617 * Digital Hunter * (+9) /* Instruction Syntax */
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15:53:17 <esowiki> [[Fungewars]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56619&oldid=56546 * Impomatic * (-1) punctuation
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16:05:37 <PinealGlandOptic> hi all. does anybody seen working example of something converting from DFA to regexp? using any method
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17:54:58 <alercah> PinealGlandOptic: working code, or is the theory enough?
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17:56:10 <alercah> PinealGlandOptic: https://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/2016/how-to-convert-finite-automata-to-regular-expressions has some discussion
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18:19:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56620&oldid=56613 * Galaxtone * (+303) Replied and changed up the style so it's easier to look at.
18:20:19 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56621&oldid=56618 * Galaxtone * (+113) Added a note.
18:22:41 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56622&oldid=56621 * Galaxtone * (-528) Applied Suggestion #1
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18:53:34 <esowiki> [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56623&oldid=56615 * Oerjan * (+167) Revert Plokmijnuhby's edit and explain why that's not enough to prove it non-TC (or else ''no'' Turing machine would be Turing-complete).
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18:55:19 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56624&oldid=56622 * Galaxtone * (-1) Small change to syntax of string length command
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19:10:21 <esowiki> [[Transio]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56625 * Bzim * (+7750) Created page on language (with standard).
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19:11:22 <esowiki> [[Transio]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56626&oldid=56625 * Bzim * (+21)
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19:20:27 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56627&oldid=56514 * Bzim * (+14)
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19:30:50 <oerjan> regarding today's GG, i predict Gil reacting like a stereotypical kid in a candy store.
19:31:34 <oerjan> (ok, this is an easy prediction)
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19:33:57 <int-e> But will the intruder with pendre's (spelling?) lantern turn up?
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19:37:02 <PinealGlandOptic> alercah: thanks, but I'm not that good to code these algos by myself :)
19:39:49 <esowiki> [[Transio]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56628&oldid=56626 * Bzim * (+9)
19:46:18 <oerjan> int-e: hm right, they might want something from that place too...
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19:53:47 <alercah> PinealGlandOptic: there's examples of code in there, though
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20:33:55 <PinealGlandOptic> am I right lex/flex uses NFA because NFA can distinguish between "foo" and "fooo", while DFA is not?
20:35:52 <int-e> PinealGlandOptic: No. NFAs and DFAs can recognize the same languages. An NFA may be exponentially smaller.
20:36:14 <PinealGlandOptic> so regexp implementations, lex and flex uses NFA because of performance reasons?
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20:38:17 <int-e> I don't even know whether the premise is true.
20:39:33 <int-e> (I've answered the part of the question that I could answer.)
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20:44:06 <lambdabot> ENVA 112020Z 12005KT CAVOK 19/16 Q1018 RMK WIND 670FT 17006KT
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20:45:50 <lambdabot> KSEA 111953Z 36009KT 320V030 10SM FEW040 25/12 A3019 RMK AO2 SLP228 T02500122
20:45:52 <esowiki> [[Transio]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56629&oldid=56628 * Bzim * (+511) Added turing completeness.
20:54:02 <arseniiv> PinealGlandOptic: “more suitable” is more general than “more expressive”, so someone could definitely say yes, NFA is more suitable in some context
20:54:42 <arseniiv> as is DFA in other context , too
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21:07:16 <esowiki> [[Transio]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56630&oldid=56629 * Bzim * (+129) Added categories
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02:19:04 <esowiki> [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56631&oldid=56623 * A * (+41) /* Computational class */
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04:16:13 <esowiki> [[SimpleScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56632 * A * (+3251) Created page with "==Commands== <any integer literal n not part of another command> -> Increment first register by n "<any sequence of characters>" -> Push the unicode ids of the characters in..."
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04:24:05 <esowiki> [[SimpleScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56633&oldid=56632 * A * (-743) /* Commands */
04:27:32 <esowiki> [[SimpleScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56634&oldid=56633 * A * (-127) /* Commands */
04:39:22 <esowiki> [[SimpleScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56635&oldid=56634 * A * (-748) /* Commands */
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04:42:09 <esowiki> [[SimpleScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56636&oldid=56635 * A * (-282) /* Commands */
04:44:42 <esowiki> [[SimpleScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56637&oldid=56636 * A * (-12) /* Commands */
04:45:39 <esowiki> [[SimpleScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56638&oldid=56637 * A * (+0) /* Commands */
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05:27:54 <esowiki> [[SimpleScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56639&oldid=56638 * A * (-219) /* Commands */
05:49:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56640&oldid=55673 * A * (+102) /* Tom's idea */
05:50:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56641&oldid=56640 * A * (+83) /* Someone should change the featured language. */
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05:53:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56642&oldid=56641 * A * (+63) /* Someone should change the featured language. */
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05:54:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56643&oldid=56642 * A * (+2) /* Someone should change the featured language. */
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09:25:44 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56644&oldid=56548 * A * (+150) /* Hello, World! */
09:31:11 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56645&oldid=56644 * A * (+87) /* Hello, World! */
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09:33:45 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56646&oldid=56447 * A * (+2) /* Brainfuck */
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10:12:59 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lvl * New user account
10:16:23 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56647&oldid=56575 * Lvl * (+170)
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12:22:29 <esowiki> [[Tip]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56648 * Ais523 * (+15510) new language!
12:23:00 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56649&oldid=56627 * Ais523 * (+10) /* T */ +[[Tip]]
12:23:33 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56650&oldid=56649 * Ais523 * (+0) /* T */ apparently I can't alphabetise today
12:23:57 <esowiki> [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56651&oldid=56484 * Ais523 * (+9) +[[Tip]]
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12:26:03 <esowiki> [[OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56652&oldid=56164 * Ais523 * (+103) /* List of OISCs */ +[[Tip]]
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13:08:52 <esowiki> [[Tip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56653&oldid=56648 * Ais523 * (+194) external resources; also a clarification to what initial IP values are allowed
13:10:35 <Taneb> @tell ais523 Tip seems neat!
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13:24:00 <esowiki> [[Tip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56654&oldid=56653 * Ais523 * (-159) /* External resources */ rm section; the content at the link was wrong (and was taken down as a result), meaning the section's now blank. Hopefully this will be fixable.
13:42:28 <esowiki> [[Tip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56655&oldid=56654 * Ais523 * (+159) complex undo revision 56654 by [[Special:Contributions/Ais523|Ais523]] ([[User talk:Ais523|talk]]): issue now fixed, although unfortunately it cost an extra byte :-(
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13:55:39 <wob_jonas> @tell ais523 Opponent has a Sigarda, Host of Herons and a Seedborn Muse and three Amoeboid changelings, each but the Sigarda enchanted by a Diplomatic immunity. In each upkeep, Opponent uses Amoeboids to make Sigarda and Muse have all creature types. How do you clear his table with your Omnitell once you go off?
13:57:42 <wob_jonas> @tell ais523 More importantly, given that the Omnitell deck runs eight wishes, how can you be sure that it's still tournament-viable after you replace much of its sideboard?
13:58:14 <wob_jonas> Since apparently ais523 still only comes in during the night when I must sleep to be able to work the next day, I'll try tell instead of catching him online.
13:58:35 <wob_jonas> Or rather, catching him on IRC. Because he does keep editing the wiki during the day.
13:59:28 <Taneb> Not going on IRC during the work day is probably sensible
14:02:22 <wob_jonas> Taneb: yes, but he _could_ go to IRC in the evening.
14:04:55 <wob_jonas> Which were those two esolangs where the instruction pointer moves in a 2-plane like in fungeoids, but can be at rational points, not constrained to a grid?
14:05:40 <wob_jonas> And one of them had no or very little state other than its instruction pointer I think.
14:05:51 <wob_jonas> I'm asking because Tip reminds me of that.
14:07:05 <esowiki> [[Collatz function]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56656&oldid=51400 * Ais523 * (+24) /* See also */ +[[Tip]]
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14:31:39 <esowiki> [[Tip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56657&oldid=56655 * Ais523 * (-4) /* Variations */ probably one decimal place is enough, but that wasn't actually proven above
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17:57:20 <shachaf> Sgeo: what's going on with olist twh
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19:47:35 <zzo38> Pentragrams are neither good luck nor bad luck. There is a normal circled pentagram, and then there is the upsidedown Satanic pentagram.
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19:50:38 <wob_jonas> Right. The pentagrams are just tools to summon a demon and attempt to bind them to your will. It's your command to the demon that may be good or evil.
19:52:58 <zzo38> It is just a mark. The marks they use for demon summoning rituals might or might not resemble pentagrams, but anyways having a pentagram does not imply anything about demon summoning.
19:53:58 <zzo38> The circled pentagram is a common Wiccan symbol; it is not used to summon demons in this way.
19:55:07 <zzo38> (I don't know much about demon summoning stuff (I am skeptical if it is even possible), but a pentagram is just the geometric shape and is related more to Wicca than demon summoning anyways.)
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19:56:05 <LKoen_> I think according to most sources, the pentagram's role is to prevent the demon from escaping and killing the summoner
19:56:35 <wob_jonas> I have some nitpicking questions to your M:tG construction because I can't find real problems with it!
19:56:35 <LKoen_> the pentagram itself doesn't actually help with the summoning or binding
19:56:36 <ais523> wob_jonas: huh, I didn't see your comment on IRC but I'm logreading it and saw it on the log
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19:56:56 <ais523> are my messages getting through now?
19:56:59 <zzo38> LKoen_: Yes, I think that is what I have read too, actually.
19:57:07 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, at least to me they are getting through
19:57:18 <ais523> maybe I shoud just use my client for sending and stalker mode in the logs for receiving :-P
19:57:37 <zzo38> The pentagram itself is just a shape (which isn't used only by demon summoners, if it is even used by them at all).
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19:57:57 <ais523> <wob_jonas> Which were those two esolangs where the instruction pointer moves in a 2-plane like in fungeoids, but can be at rational points, not constrained to a grid? ← Trajedy/Conedy; see also Nopfunge
19:59:22 <ais523> wob_jonas: re: wishes, some of the sideboard is more important than other parts, I kept all the most vital parts
19:59:36 <wob_jonas> yep, trajedy and conedy are the ones
19:59:42 <ais523> the deck's unlikely to have as high a win rate but it should still be high enough to pull the combo off at least once in a tournament
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20:00:23 <wob_jonas> ok, that seems a reasonable thing to say
20:01:53 <ais523> Taneb: re: Tip, it's basically just a case of looking at iterated collatz functions (because thanks to quintopia, it holds the record for shortest implementation of a TC language in a non-eso language) and realising that it's more complex than necessary
20:02:04 <ais523> although the need for rationals rather than integers is painful when you're implementing it in something low-powered
20:03:39 <ais523> all the messing about with finite fields that I did semi-recently was helpful, though
20:05:45 <wob_jonas> yeah, although you only need exact division, no other difficult integer operations such as division and remainder or gcd
20:06:02 <ais523> well, in practice you need modulo to be able to figure out which command to run
20:06:09 <ais523> but apart from that, yes
20:06:33 <wob_jonas> and even those can be difficult to implement in something like M:tG :-)
20:06:53 <ais523> right, Tip doesn't seem like a good language to implent in M:tG
20:07:16 <wob_jonas> Tip is like conedy or fractran in how it stores data
20:07:19 <ais523> although divmod is generally very easy if you have a state machine available, which is why it's the usual building block used for counter-machine-like TC proofs
20:07:53 <ais523> well, Tip is a "dispatch on remainder" type of language, those tend to be TC
20:08:01 <ais523> compare to conedy which is "dispatch on integer part"
20:08:13 <ais523> which I'm beginning to suspect is only PDA-strength
20:09:10 <ais523> that said, I thought the same about Something?Oops!, which turned out to be TC
20:09:24 <ais523> even though it's dispatch-on-remainder
20:09:43 <ais523> (it's one of A/Asdf's languages, most of them are atrocious but that one got me thinking)
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20:12:18 <wob_jonas> wait, A/Asdf makes OISC languages? Do we know he's not also Iamcalledbob then?
20:12:30 <ais523> we think he probably is iamcalledbob
20:12:50 <wob_jonas> I only saw you mention that A and Asdf was the same
20:13:03 <ais523> I've been respecting GDPR and not running checkuser or anything like that (that's reserved for spambots) but it's just obvious based on the way they're acting
20:13:07 <wob_jonas> but I probably missed a lot during being in a psychiatric hospital for 18 days
20:13:10 <ais523> either the same person (most likely) or a group of friends (less likely)
20:14:04 <wob_jonas> of which the last four nights were on a bed that makes it almost impossible to speak, while the psychiatrist told me that for a stress-related problem like this, sleeping well is very important.
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20:14:36 <wob_jonas> that was the worst part though. the hospital and its drastic sedation seems to have worked to at least temporarily reset me
20:15:53 <ais523> good luck with your recovery!
20:18:32 <ais523> Tip is frustrating because of all the special cases in Jelly's syntax
20:18:37 <wob_jonas> ais523: you didn't answer my other crazy nitpicking question though
20:18:51 <ais523> wob_jonas: oh, I simply didn't expect the situation to come up :-D
20:19:15 <ais523> in a game as complex as M:tG, there have to be some board states which are impregnable short of Karn Liberated (whose effect is generally considered to trump anything else)
20:19:23 <wob_jonas> yeah, it's not something that will happen in an actual Legacy tourney game. the opponent would win or lose before it comes up.
20:19:52 <ais523> on the other hand, most decks are focused enough that even a relatively weak survival combo can be enough
20:20:02 <ais523> `card-by-name fortune thief
20:20:03 <HackEso> Fortune Thief \ 4R \ Creature -- Human Rogue \ 0/1 \ Damage that would reduce your life total to less than 1 reduces it to 1 instead. \ Morph {R}{R} (You may cast this card face down as a 2/2 creature for {3}. Turn it face up any time for its morph cost.) \ TSP-R
20:20:07 <ais523> `card-by-name shielding plax
20:20:08 <HackEso> Shielding Plax \ 2(g/u) \ Enchantment -- Aura \ ({(g/u)} can be paid with either {G} or {U}.) \ Enchant creature \ When Shielding Plax enters the battlefield, draw a card. \ Enchanted creature can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control. \ DIS-C
20:20:58 <ais523> I won a game against a serious tournament deck with that combo a while ago because, fragile though it is, the deck only had one answer (Pyroclasm) and didn't draw it
20:21:55 <esowiki> [[Tip]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56658&oldid=56657 * Oerjan * (+1) typo
20:22:12 <ais523> [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 80 seconds.
20:22:21 <wob_jonas> ah, I know that feeling. not from tournaments, but from casual games, where I often play green or white, which have very few answers to some things.
20:22:37 <ais523> every colour is supposed to have things it can't answer
20:22:48 <ais523> except white, which can actually answer anything but is meant to have problems with card flow
20:22:59 <wob_jonas> yeah, that's also sort of accurate
20:23:52 <ais523> green can also answer everything but normally takes multiple cards to do so
20:24:05 <ais523> err, except instants/sorceries, it has no answer to those
20:25:31 <ais523> actually it's probably only red that has a really hard weakness (can't get rid of enchantments except by killing their controller)
20:25:49 <ais523> as black and blue both have general-purpose answers which are restricted in timing (discard and counterspells respectively)
20:26:40 <wob_jonas> there are some ways how my casual white decks try to defend against that: (1) win with Armored Ascension, which goes against the normal white rules that white doesn't have large creatures or auras that increase power by more than one, (2) Arcane Spyglass to burn away my lands for cards, (3) just make the deck fast enough, which is possible since Lo
20:26:40 <wob_jonas> rwyn, although not as much as in red-white, (4) blue splash
20:27:42 <ais523> tournament white decks normally try to slow their opponent down instead
20:28:10 <ais523> typically using "symmetrical" effects that make certain things more expensive or unplayable for both players, when those things happen not to be in your deck ;-)
20:28:17 <ais523> `card-by-name Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
20:28:18 <HackEso> Thalia, Guardian of Thraben \ 1W \ Legendary Creature -- Human Soldier \ 2/1 \ First strike \ Noncreature spells cost {1} more to cast. \ DKA-R
20:29:07 <wob_jonas> I'm still considering to eventually go back to Magic though, and there are a lot of things in each color that exist on cards now that didn't use to exist
20:29:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Tip]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56659 * Oerjan * (+369) /* Computational class */ new section
20:29:40 <wob_jonas> there's like a ton of cards I'd like to buy
20:30:14 <ais523> Magic's being really mismanaged at the moment, I suspect
20:31:19 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56660&oldid=56647 * Oerjan * (-39) Let's not confuse the next editor.
20:31:40 <wob_jonas> no, quite the contrary, at least from their point of view. they manage to produce more and more new cards every year, and get a lot of income, ever since Tenth Edition, but they always do it so sneakily that it's not obvious to notice
20:31:59 <wob_jonas> they're doing good business where they're always selling more and more, even potentially to me if I ever return
20:32:26 <wob_jonas> without making it too obvious that they're doing such a business
20:33:06 <ais523> I'm not sure, they've had a few disasters recently, such as Iconic Masters
20:33:58 <wob_jonas> and they make it really look like it will never stop, which they have to, because there's basically no clean way to stop producing new Magic sets, for if people ever suspect that Wizards is trying to do that in the next three years, they will stop buying Magic immediately
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21:15:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Tip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56661&oldid=56659 * Ais523 * (+743) somehow I missed that the Fractran calculation didn't use the s part of the Collatz function
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21:20:16 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56662&oldid=56230 * Igorrto * (+75) /* Looks Like */
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00:09:49 <esowiki> [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56663&oldid=56457 * DMC * (+0)
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00:21:54 <tswett> Can there be two different groups G1 and G2 so that the direct products G1 * G1 and G2 * G2 are isomorphic?
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01:02:30 <tswett> My hobby: trying to do theorem proving in languages that aren't suited for it at all.
01:02:43 <tswett> Here's my definition of a monoid in C#: https://lpaste.net/5400411184144842752
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03:40:11 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56664&oldid=56645 * A * (+34) /* See also */
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09:00:18 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56665&oldid=56646 * A * (+98) /* Brainloller */
09:02:39 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56666&oldid=56665 * A * (-38) /* Brainloller */
09:03:21 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * A * uploaded "[[File:Brainloller Hello.gif]]"
09:03:49 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * A * uploaded "[[File:Brainloller Helloworld.gif]]"
09:04:50 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56669&oldid=56666 * A * (+9) /* Brainloller */
09:05:42 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56670&oldid=56669 * A * (+39) /* Brainloller */
09:12:20 <esowiki> [[Brainloller]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56671&oldid=45244 * A * (+66) /* Example */
09:13:13 <esowiki> [[Brainloller]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56672&oldid=56671 * A * (-66) /* Example */
09:13:31 <esowiki> [[Brainloller]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56673&oldid=56672 * A * (+66) /* Example */
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09:53:10 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56674&oldid=56284 * A * (+105) /* Stuck? We'll try again */
09:56:40 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56675&oldid=56674 * A * (+199) /* Good news */
09:59:14 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56676&oldid=56675 * A * (+178) /* Step 2 */
10:03:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56677&oldid=17477 * A * (+98) /* Input/Output */
10:05:22 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56678&oldid=56676 * A * (+36) /* Step 4 */
10:06:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56679&oldid=56677 * A * (+154) /* Input/Output */
10:11:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56680&oldid=56679 * A * (+249) /* Inverse instruction? */
10:13:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56681&oldid=56680 * A * (-1) /* Inverse instruction? */
10:15:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56682&oldid=56681 * A * (-49) /* Inverse instruction? */
10:17:52 <HackEso> ysaclist 78: boily shachaf
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10:28:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56683&oldid=56682 * A * (-1) /* Inverse instruction? */
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10:53:02 <wob_jonas> oerjan: wow. judging from those edits, A is definitely Iamcalledbob's sock.
10:53:36 <wob_jonas> (which is what ais523 said too, I know, I'm just saying that now I'm certain of it too)
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12:56:12 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56684&oldid=56477 * Ais523 * (+391) more about TCness
12:58:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[File:Brainloller Hello.gif]]": Duplicated file: this is the unused copy out of the two; both were uploaded by the same user at about the same time
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13:00:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56685&oldid=56683 * Ais523 * (+358) /* Input determination */ that's , not TC
13:08:32 <HackEso> olist 1126: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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13:32:27 <wob_jonas> oh! the people on the forums actually predicted this twist from a hidden hint the Giant gave some strips ago
13:33:04 <wob_jonas> ais523: now that A is editing [[BF instruction minimalization]], it's even more obvious that he's Iamcalledbob's sock.
13:33:39 <ais523> or, not so much a sock as someone who keeps bouncing their main around
13:36:01 <ais523> they seem to be learning now, though
13:36:16 <ais523> like, if you repeatedly point out their misconceptions about TCness they seem to fix them for future edits…
13:36:40 <ais523> and someone throwing out that many ideas is useful just because occasionally they give inspiration
13:37:23 <wob_jonas> and he waited until after his ban expired to create a new user
13:38:50 <wob_jonas> let me see, did he learn to actually follow the clear instructions in [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] for the later accounts?
13:39:26 <ais523> he discovered he could create multiple accounts a while back and created and introduced like four of them (admitting who he was), then never used him
13:39:42 <ais523> A and Asdf came later without any /admitted/ link to the original account, but it's obvious
13:40:12 <Taneb> What's he trying to achieve?
13:40:53 <ais523> he's just someone with more enthusiasm than knowledge, I think
13:40:59 <ais523> normally that ends up manifesting as one BF derivative
13:41:10 <wob_jonas> Apparently partially. Never followed 'sign your name by writing in "~~~~" (without quotes),' but at least follows 'write a short description (one or two sentences is enough) about what brings you to this wiki' for some of the later accounts
13:41:27 <ais523> in this case it ended up manifesting as like twenty derivatives of random languages, plus a very optimistic view on TCness
13:41:29 <int-e> ais523: how are you typing /your/ wiki signature btw? (the one with the U and C links)
13:41:45 <ais523> int-e: three tildes and a lot of substed templates
13:41:48 <Taneb> ais523: it seems a very weird way to go about it
13:42:06 <wob_jonas> int-e: there's a setting in [[Special:Preferences]] to change what the name part of three/four tildes expands to
13:42:10 <ais523> the date's in the signature itself as {{subst:CURRENTDAY}} and friends
13:42:28 <ais523> I partially think it might be a troll, but if so it's a /really good/ troll
13:42:36 <ais523> very few people try to promote their language by renaming [[Main Page]], after all
13:42:55 <wob_jonas> it's apparently very fashionable on some mediawikis to modify that to include a link to the talk page and some vanity stuff, often making it hard to tell your actual username
13:43:15 <wob_jonas> so much that on hu.wikipedia someone explicitly asked me to put a link to my talk page into my signature, so I eventually did
13:43:36 <int-e> (I do not intend to imitate it, but I was curious how it is done.)
13:43:43 <ais523> wob_jonas: well, after the userbox wars, there wasn't much appetite for enforcing minor signature variations
13:43:51 <ais523> *minor signature violations
13:44:23 <wob_jonas> on other wikis I just make it expand to "– [[User:b_jonas|b_jonas]]" so I don't have to type "-- ~~~~" but only "~~~~"
13:45:09 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah, as long as it still clearly links to the user page or talk page of the right user, and isn't horrible, we just allow anything in sigs
13:46:14 <wob_jonas> still much better than the fashion on some phpbb-based forums where some people have huge multiline sigs and avatars that often take up more screen space than their actual post.
13:46:46 <ais523> you can just turn those off
13:46:51 <wob_jonas> apparently on those forums the typical mod-enforced rule is that the sig shouldn't take up more screen space than six lines of normal text
13:47:14 <ais523> one phpBB-based forum I'm on autocollapses signatures that are longer than three or four lines of <small> text, IIRC
13:47:23 <ais523> but you can expand them to see the whole thing
13:47:29 <ais523> or turn them off altogether in your options
13:48:00 <arseniiv> apparently on those forums the typical mod-enforced rule is that the sig shouldn't take up more screen space than six lines of normal text => (rofl)
13:49:02 <wob_jonas> ah yes, the typical mod-enforced rule is that the sig shouldn't take up more screen space than six lines of normal text _before expanding spoiler tags_
13:49:51 <arseniiv> it’s a shame I rarely visit these forums)
13:50:02 <wob_jonas> DMM's Irregular forum has much stricter rules. no images in posts, ever. that's actually a good rule. I hate how on most phpbb forums any poster can just embed any off-site image and track who loads their post how many times.
13:50:38 <wob_jonas> the only think phpbb itself enforces is that post look ugly and the avatar size is capped.
13:51:32 <ais523> phpBB often has issues matching tags
13:51:48 <ais523> it's fairly frequent to accidentally make a post that closes more tags than it opens and causes the rest of the page to break out of its container…
13:52:30 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah. doesn't allow links to urls with parenthesis in them. quite a similar bug than on Stack Exchange's markdown formatter, but at least there in posts you can work it around, on phpbb you can't
13:52:37 <arseniiv> btw are there esolangs modeling simething like a cell colony? to compute, you have to grow a colony from one primordial cell you are only free to “program” beforehand
13:53:14 <wob_jonas> oh, closes more tags than it opens? I remember back when perlmonks allowed that. it's still a viewer user's setting whether to enforce correct tag nesting, but defaults to yes.
13:54:16 <ais523> arseniiv: hmm, that sort of computation is normally done in 2D cellular automata but they tend to need very big initial states to be TC, which is not what you're looking for at all
13:54:43 <ais523> perhaps some of the 2D automata with lots of colors that support programmable self-replicators are close to what you want
13:55:30 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: hmm. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Lambda:_the_Gathering requires you to build up programs from the few cards you have, and in each step you can only compose one card onto a slot from left or right and putting the composition result back in the slot, but this allows building up anything because at least one card represents a function that can
13:55:49 <arseniiv> I tampered with this idea once a week ago, using “genes” and “molecules” they produce, and a quirky cell division mechanism (neighboring cell chains shift, if not enough space), but in the end it felt not so cool so I abandoned it
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14:00:51 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: interesting game there, albeit a hard one for me
14:01:32 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: it's hard for everyone. ICFP contests get harder and harder every year, it seems.
14:02:32 <wob_jonas> back in the old days the tasks were simple enough that a lone programmer had a chance to win, these days tasks involve so many complicated things that they require a team of three or four programmers who already know how to form an effective team
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14:04:04 <Taneb> Didn't a lone programmer win last year?
14:05:36 <Taneb> I can't enter this year :(
14:06:35 <int-e> Taneb: yes, a lone C++ programmer won
14:07:40 <ais523> when does the challenge start?
14:07:44 <ais523> I probably won't participate
14:08:05 <ais523> I was on the fence about a fairly recent previous challenge (the one where you had to claim edges to build a network), and once the twists started was very glad I didn't compete
14:08:05 <int-e> https://icfpcontest2018.github.io/
14:09:23 <int-e> (it's now 14:10 UTC)
14:10:11 <int-e> Anyway my plan is to look at it and not actually participate... like almost every year.
14:10:45 <int-e> It's kind of mean to schedule it into the middle of FLoC.
14:10:55 <int-e> wait, no. It's end of FLoC.
14:18:46 <wob_jonas> look at it, and if by some miracle it's something easy and I have time then participate with something I write quickly, but definitely not spend much time on it
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18:43:26 <shachaf> Sgeo: See, I knew bugging you about it would help.
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19:42:37 <HackEso> smlist 472: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
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20:42:37 <int-e> `` wc -l quotes; tail -n1 quotes
20:42:37 <HackEso> 1324 quotes \ <zzo38> Please look at the new [[BackTurn]] program language see if it is good or else what other comment/question/complaint.
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21:14:37 <imode> can someone tell me how something like a register machine with a fixed number of registers is able to store and manipulate arbitrary datastructures like adjacency matrices for graphs?
21:16:43 <imode> trying to figure out how you're able to squeeze out different representations of data from multiset rewriting.
21:23:16 <int-e> imode: what do you mean by multiset rewriting?
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21:24:20 <imode> a rewriting system with rules of the form `m -> m'`, where m and m' are subsets of a larger multiset.
21:24:57 <imode> and P-systems with one membrane, yeah.
21:25:50 <int-e> (Multiset rewriting exists in the literature but what I found has more structure.)
21:26:10 <imode> what literature? :o
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21:27:42 <int-e> imode: Petri nets are not just similar, they are isomorphic to what you describe; represent the rule m -> m' by a transition that has arcs from each element of m and arcs to each element of m'.
21:28:27 <int-e> (you'll need places for all elements in the rules)
21:28:28 <imode> yeah, I'm aware. register machines are a subset of multiset rewriting systems with inhibitors.
21:28:49 <imode> I've just never seen stuff like datastructures be dealt with in them like I have with traditional TMs or string rewriting systems.
21:29:04 <int-e> but anyway, as to your question I think people generally simulate two stacks, which gives you a Turing machine, and leave it at that
21:29:40 <imode> so not really useful in and of themselves, then... that's a shame.
21:31:53 <int-e> To simulate a stack, you only need multiplication and division with remainder by a fixed constant (the size of the stack alphabet). So one register for each stack, and one scratch register. So 3 registers is TC. To work with 2 registers, people then simulate a 3-register machine by representing (a,b,c) by 2^a 3^b 5^c, and again multiplication and division by constants (namely the primes 2,3,5)...
21:32:39 <int-e> Obviously the complexity suffers horribly.
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21:34:23 <int-e> Alternatively, you can execute recursive functions on a Minsky machine. But again, you'll have to work quite hard in order to represent complex data structures as natural numbers.
21:34:39 <imode> yeah, the number of operations just grows and grows... I was just wondering if there were any shortcuts other than godel numbering for representing structured data.
21:34:39 <int-e> And I don't think Petri nets make this any easier.
21:35:50 <imode> guess turing got it right the first time. :P
21:36:39 <imode> if the structure you rewrite over doesn't have enough "structure", for the lack of a better term, complexity suffers, both in terms of operations and constructing algorithms.
21:36:50 <int-e> TMs are awkward to, since tapes lack random access.
21:37:29 <int-e> (well... efficient random access)
21:37:31 <imode> right, but it's not hard to constructively build random access via multi-tape or multi-track constructions.
21:37:54 <imode> I can't imagine building RAM out of a register machine without defaulting to an intermediary TM.
21:39:25 <int-e> No matter how you do it there's an unavoidable exponential slowdown compared to RAM.
21:39:52 <imode> yup. which is why I turn to things like string rewriting systems.
21:40:04 <int-e> Because the information has to be stored in a finite number of registers, so they have to grow exponentially, and the only way to extract information from a register is to reduce it all the way to 0.
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21:42:46 <int-e> So basically Minsky machines are inherently impractical, so there's hardly any incentive for optimization.
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21:43:21 <imode> yeaaah... I'll just stick with regular ol' strings.
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22:58:51 <imode> someone mentioned that composing programs in Thue involves composition on the symbol level. how would you "wrap up" a thue program to be used by another thue program?
22:59:41 <imode> I guess it has to do with composing unrestricted grammmars.
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01:42:28 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56686&oldid=56678 * A * (-117) /* Good news */
02:02:11 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56687&oldid=56684 * A * (+60) /* Turing-completeness */
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02:12:39 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * A * uploaded "[[File:Brainloller Truth machine.gif]]"
02:14:07 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56689&oldid=56601 * A * (+61) /* brainfunct */
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03:05:49 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56690&oldid=56474 * A * (+502) /* An improvement */
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03:52:14 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56691&oldid=56690 * A * (+210) /* Explanation */
04:09:50 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56692&oldid=56689 * A * (+86) /* brainfuck */
04:12:19 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56693&oldid=56692 * A * (-86) /* brainfuck */
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04:14:19 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56694&oldid=56693 * A * (+76) /* brainfuck */
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04:35:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * A * uploaded "[[File:Shorer Brainloller Truth Machine.gif]]"
04:35:51 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * A * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Shorer Brainloller Truth Machine.gif]]"
04:36:54 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56697&oldid=56694 * A * (+80) /* Brainloller */
04:37:33 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * A * uploaded "[[File:Shorter Brainloller Truth machine.gif]]"
04:39:00 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * A * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Shorter Brainloller Truth machine.gif]]"
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05:51:14 <zzo38> Probably the duplicate file "Shorer Brainloller Truth Machine.gif" should be deleted. (Converting to PNG and avoiding the dithering, is also good to have)
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16:25:51 <ais523> int-e: imode: re efficiency of tarpits, Minsky machines are inherently slow if you execute them a step at a time but tend to be fairly easy to optimise
16:26:11 <ais523> meanwhile, Turing machines are missing a capability that most implementations of Turing machines in lower-level languages have: the ability to insert and delete tape elements
16:26:40 <ais523> so a Minsky machine is probably going to be more efficient than a Turing machine if you have a good optimiser
16:26:48 <ais523> I was working on one a while back but never finisehd it
16:31:16 <imode> ais523: my question is, to do anything useful, you need to use godel numbering.
16:31:26 <imode> this means I need arbitrarily large numbers.
16:31:54 <ais523> I think any language needs arbitrarily large data structures
16:32:03 <ais523> numbers are a good choice for a tarpit because they're so flexible
16:32:18 <imode> right, but what does it buy me?
16:32:30 <ais523> the ability to treat a number as an opaque object
16:32:47 <ais523> you can't really do that with, say, a tape section in a Turing machine, you need to know things about its structure and the like
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16:33:04 <ais523> with numbers, you can just store them inside other numbers using exponents of primes or whatever
16:33:28 <ais523> it's massively inefficient if you look at the size of the numbers, but a sufficiently smart compiler can reverse that and decompose them back into the actual data structures
16:33:29 <imode> what does that buy you practically, though? it also relies on arithmetic.
16:34:07 <ais523> well, the simplest tarpits we know of either use numbers directly to store data, or else counts of things to store data (which is very comparable to using numbers)
16:34:11 <imode> I think I'd rather just work on strings of symbols. if I have to build something "sufficiently smart" to hack around the inefficiencies of the automata/model I'm working with...
16:34:33 <ais523> apart from maybe cyclic tag, which arguably uses strings
16:34:33 <int-e> ais523: So basically you'd be working with a stack machine then?
16:34:39 <int-e> (multi-stack machine that is)
16:35:15 <ais523> int-e: right, nearly always counter-machine tarpits, the TC proof starts by implementing a stack machine (or another counter machine that implements a stack machine, etc.)
16:35:47 <ais523> imode: well, again looking at tarpits, they tend to have an (implicit or explicit) data pointer, which means that dealing with a string has similar performance properties to dealing with a number
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16:35:54 <ais523> as you have to move the pointer along it to accomplish anything
16:36:14 <imode> right but they admit to a mechanical representation.
16:36:24 <imode> one discrete location to the next.
16:36:45 <ais523> a number's just a string of digits, though, right?
16:37:15 <ais523> the only real difference between a string and a number is that the string enforces what base it's in, and a number doesn't inherently have opinions on that
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17:27:33 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[File:Shorer Brainloller Truth Machine.gif]]": Duplicated file: this is the unused copy out of the two; both were uploaded by the same user at about the same time
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18:27:16 <imode> ais523: sorry I dropped out earlier, lemme review the logs.
18:27:24 <imode> damn cell service.
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18:37:50 <imode> ais523: right, but when I consider writing an algorithm for dealing with structures like adjacency matrices, 2D arrays, and other structures, I don't think "wow, that could be represented as a number", I think of the transformations required to work on parts of the structure.
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18:38:16 <imode> I guess I don't see how transformations via arithmetic are somehow more suitable than just simple string substitutions.
18:39:03 <imode> especially when you need glorified bignums to do it..
18:39:08 <ais523> I guess I like the transformations to be built out of the smallest building blocks possible, because it makes them more general and places fewer assumptions about what they can be used for
18:39:25 <imode> smallest building blocks possible? what about things like thue?
18:39:34 <ais523> what about things like fractran?
18:39:49 <imode> based on arbitrary arithmetic operations.
18:39:54 <ais523> that's basically "Thue for numbers" and is more general/elegant (a Fractran program will normally be shorter than a Thue program for the same thing)
18:40:10 <imode> I'm not sure how you can say that unless you have an example.
18:40:27 <imode> fractran is multiset rewriting, not string rewriting.
18:41:34 <ais523> Thue is very bad at moving data from one place to another because the use of a string inherently gives the data locations
18:42:08 <ais523> that said, I don't have a concrete example of Fractran being golfier than Thue because few people have tried to golf either, it's more an educated guess
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18:42:36 <ais523> a Fractran self-interpreter is pretty short, though, and a Thue self-interpreter isn't even possible unless you limit the alphabet a bit, in which case the size is at least quadratic in the size of the alphabet
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19:03:26 <imode> ais523: I'm actually working on that... by using special prefixes.
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19:06:53 <imode> I don't think that giving data a location is a bad thing. in fact I think it as required in order to... do useful things. you're going to be doing the same thing with FRACTRAN.
19:07:02 <imode> only you're just wrapping it up in a sequence of arithmetic options.
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19:08:00 <ais523> well, it's about visibility
19:08:04 <ais523> in Fractran, the data is just kind-of there
19:08:08 <ais523> you don't have to move it to the right place first
19:08:24 <imode> but you're going to end up doing that anyway. I get that you strip ordering but..
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19:10:15 <ais523> it's amazing how much more efficient a few global variables can make a program
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19:11:33 <imode> if you really wanna convince me, translate this into FRACTRAN: https://ptpb.pw/qrUV/text
19:12:30 <imode> it's my variant of thue, and I have an interpreter for it. I'd be interested to see how you'd do it with a queue as well.
19:12:50 <imode> or this, which is a pseudo-drawing program: https://ptpb.pw/vO8Q/text
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19:13:56 <ais523> that first one is, what, unary RPN?
19:14:21 <imode> but it parses a command set.
19:14:24 <ais523> I might have a go later, there are more important things I'm supposed to be doing first
19:14:29 <ais523> also, it's not parsing
19:14:39 <ais523> you're using Thue tokens directly as commands
19:14:48 <imode> pedantic, aren't we.
19:15:22 <ais523> nah, it's relevant here, because it's important for getting the equivalence between the two programs right
19:15:43 <imode> that doesn't disqualify the fact that you have to.. do that.
19:16:16 <ais523> imode: you'd have to do that in either direction!
19:16:36 <ais523> define how the I/O works, that is
19:18:14 <imode> right, so "given a sequence of commands, simulate a stack machine with addition and subtraction."
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19:20:04 <imode> I'd like to see how it ends up being... so-called better.
19:20:17 <imode> it's not hard to reason about these transformations.
19:20:30 <imode> but I cannot imagine what it's like in multiset rewriting systems like FRACTRAN.
19:21:10 <ais523> come to think of it I'd imagine that program fits Thue very well because it uses exactly two stacks in a way that doesn't require an extra encoding layer
19:21:19 <ais523> if you were trying to implement a TC language (i.e. program plus /two/ stacks) it'd be a lot messier
19:22:16 <imode> planning on having a "label" stack. on a return, seek back to the return stack, fetch a label, and seek forward until you hit your label.
19:22:59 <imode> that's not even the only way to do it. I like the way you can use "signals" to carry information.
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19:28:22 <imode> I'm also working on a preprocessing pass that'll add some additional features that makes the language a little easier to use. for example, the addition of "stateful strings" indicated by prefixes on every symbol. so certain rules only apply to symbols prefixed with a given "state".
19:29:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Zzo38 * uploaded "[[File:Brainloller Helloworld.png]]": Small version of Brainloller_Helloworld.gif
19:32:00 <esowiki> [[Brainloller]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56701&oldid=56673 * Zzo38 * (+37)
19:33:00 <int-e> imode: I usually hide in an attempt to keep what is left of my sanity.
19:33:15 <imode> entering this place implies a lack of it.
19:39:54 <int-e> uh, I meant to write "I usually hide colors" there
19:40:09 <int-e> But the omission worked rather nicely.
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19:42:03 <int-e> > let variable = variable in variable
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19:56:18 <wob_jonas> ais523: re numbers, yes, a very good example for that is Amycus, which is nominally defined to work on numbers, but actually works with binary trees, and an efficient implementation would have to use binary trees as the representation, becuase otherwise the numbers would grow too large
19:56:33 <wob_jonas> as in, not just exponentially large, but tetration large
19:59:00 <wob_jonas> and yes, the Turing-completeness proof of Consumer Society and the proof that it can also efficiently simulate a register machine (up to polylog slowdown) both use a two-stack machine
19:59:52 <wob_jonas> the two-stack machine can directly simulate a one-tape Turing machine, and you use the two stacks to store arbitrarily large numbers which you use as addresses to simulate a register tree manipulation machine
20:00:35 <wob_jonas> you're actually simulating a RAM machine with addresses, but I don't like RAM machines because there's too many different ways to define them and no one nice canonical one
20:01:28 <ais523> Thue is pretty similar to a Turing machine with insertion and deletion
20:01:31 <ais523> as is a two-stack machine
20:02:09 <wob_jonas> interestingly, there are at least two proofs though that I can use to simulate a two-stack machine, and both are interesting because either of them don't use the full power of Consumer Society, but it's two different things that they don't use
20:02:46 <ais523> Consumer Society doesn't seem to be on Esolang
20:02:54 <wob_jonas> but Consumer Society is not a tarpit, it's not easy to simulate
20:03:04 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, it's a future language that I'll write up at some point
20:03:14 <wob_jonas> and I'm keeping its actual mechanics a secret until that
20:03:54 <imode> is it covered under ITAR?
20:05:03 <imode> international traffic in arms regulations.
20:05:23 <imode> that joke about national secrets fell flat.
20:06:00 <wob_jonas> is that the thing why the license of some commercial software says that you can't sell them to Cuba or North Korea?
20:06:39 <Lymia> What is Consumer Society?
20:06:46 <Lymia> Not an esolang I can find on the wiki
20:06:56 <wob_jonas> Lymia: a future esolang that I will document eventually
20:07:07 <wob_jonas> I've had it in my head for like a year
20:07:32 <wob_jonas> I consider it very elegant, but YMMV
20:08:25 <wob_jonas> it's not like the tarpit languages of ais523 which try to be easy to simulate and hard to program, but it's like ais523's languages in that it has only very few operations because the programmer can just simulate everything else.
20:08:53 <ais523> mine vary in how hard they are to program in
20:09:02 <ais523> being hard to program in isn't an end goal, it's just a side effect
20:09:38 <Lymia> I have never actually designed an esolang for the sake of being an esolang
20:10:16 <ais523> what do you mean as "the sake of being an esolang"?
20:10:50 <wob_jonas> Lymia: me neither. this just popped out as I examined non-eso languages and what operations they can do and noticed that a certain few operations are enough to do everything
20:11:10 <ais523> "increment target" and "dereference" :-P
20:11:50 <wob_jonas> or "increment counter" and "try to decrement counter if nonzero, conditional goto depending on whether it was zero"
20:12:09 <Lymia> ais523, I did a dumb thing for a Minecraft server plugin back in the day
20:12:14 <Lymia> it was an esolang because it had to fit on Minecraft signs
20:12:22 <wob_jonas> which are the two operations that Minsky or StackFlow have
20:12:53 <Lymia> If I was to do it again, I'd just implement Golfscript. :P
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20:13:10 <ais523> wob_jonas: the typical counter machine has four operations (increment, decrement, zero test, goto), which can be minimized by grouping them in various ways
20:13:21 <ais523> Lymia: I doubt it, GolfScript is an "environment-execution-tied" language
20:13:38 <ais523> i.e. its semantics inherently rely on the language it's implemented in (IIRC Ruby?)
20:13:48 <ais523> and implementing it in anything else would require a Ruby interpreter
20:14:05 <ais523> I personally consider these languages very inelegant but it's common among golfing languages
20:14:10 <ais523> (and I have one of my own, A Pear Tree, which is tied to Perl)
20:14:22 <ais523> (but it doesn't try to hide it, like, e.g. GolfScript does)
20:14:37 <Lymia> . o O (JVM/CLR esolang that retains the esolang flavor)
20:15:02 <Lymia> <s>Oh wait, that's just Clojure</s>
20:15:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah, I sort of prefer to assume the kind of counter machine that has no linear order of statements, but just states and one or two next state pointers in each state
20:15:19 <ais523> Lymia: just try to tarpit the JVM
20:15:33 <wob_jonas> and that's how I imagine the heap-allocating tree machine too
20:15:35 <ais523> it's close to an esolang in its own right, but it more resembles those BF derivatives that add far too many commands than anything else
20:15:45 <wob_jonas> Turing machines are usually defined that way too
20:15:55 <Lymia> JVM/CLR assembly themselves are... surprisingly reasonable.
20:16:09 <ais523> the odd thing is that you can't use its stack for TCness as you need to statically bound how high it is at every point in the program
20:16:16 <Lymia> There's 0 magic, unlike our friend SPIR-V
20:16:18 <ais523> please don't call JVM bytecode reasonable :-(
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20:16:29 <ais523> I have worked with it for my day job, it's one of the more unreasonable ASMs I've seen
20:16:49 <ais523> why use a stack for most things, but registers for local variables and arguments, for example? (this is the exact opposite of how most asms do it)
20:17:37 <wob_jonas> ais523: hehe. whereas lua uses a stack for the local variables and function arguments, just like typical C to real processor compilers do
20:17:55 <ais523> why require that a pointer uses one stack slot and a 64-bit integer uses two? on any non-32-bit system, that's just going to require special cases to implement that behaviour specifically
20:18:17 <Lymia> (Because it was defined before 64-bit was a thing)
20:18:31 <Lymia> I think JVM actually still has 32-bit pointers on 64-bit too? Via some deep magic
20:19:32 <Lymia> ais523, what I should say is
20:19:37 <Lymia> It's not unreasonable or tarpitty to use.
20:19:53 <ais523> I consider it to be unreasonable though
20:21:08 <Lymia> I suspect it's an encoding size concession, actually
20:21:25 <Lymia> The way Java/C# expressions work pretty easily translate into RPN, basically.
20:22:10 <Lymia> Since it's stack-based, there's no basically redundant location operands in every opcode.
20:22:23 <Lymia> In effect, it has local variables and expressions in RPN.
20:22:45 <ais523> the way modern Java toolchain work is to basically translate the Java into JVM as literally as they can
20:22:55 <ais523> and then decompile it and recompile it into something that's remotely optimised within the runtime
20:23:05 <wob_jonas> can you suggest interesting runs of games that aren't too well-known from either SGDQ 2018 or ESA Germany 2017? I don't have time to watch everything, but I'd like to see cool runs of games I don't yet know.
20:23:20 <ais523> I have a huge suspicion that the reason why Java JITs ended up becoming so good is that the AOT compilation is so bad
20:23:38 <wob_jonas> Don't bother with the weell-known games like Super Metroid or Super Mario 64 that is, I can already guess which of those I can watch.
20:23:40 <ais523> wob_jonas: I personally like Axiom Verge, the SGDQ run of it is perfectly adequate
20:24:11 <wob_jonas> Axiom Verge, ok, will look at that
20:24:22 <ais523> in general though you'll prefer the run more if you like the game / its genre
20:24:22 <Lymia> ais523, I wish Scala didn't take after javac's model of compilation
20:24:34 <Lymia> I'm not sure the JVM can really optimize some of the stuff it outputs.
20:24:48 <ais523> Lymia: I've lost track of just how bad javac's optimisation is
20:24:55 <ais523> it is comparable to gcc -O0, probably a bit worse
20:24:55 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure. I don't like fast-paced 3D games for example.
20:25:05 <wob_jonas> real 3D that is, where the player moves in 3D
20:25:13 <ais523> but you're OK if it's slower?
20:25:29 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, in particular I like GTA Vice City runs because they're slower paced
20:25:58 <Lymia> There are the Pokemon RBY runs.
20:26:19 <wob_jonas> Lymia: I've already seen the two game one controller Pokemon blue and yellow
20:27:43 <Lymia> I remember there being a glitched 151 pokemon race?
20:28:00 <wob_jonas> Lymia: wasn't that last year? or winter?
20:28:17 <wob_jonas> no wait, that was the blindfolded glitched race
20:28:24 <Lymia> It wasn't this year, no
20:28:41 <Lymia> ais523, a JVM/CLR tarpit would be interesting.
20:28:41 <wob_jonas> they did all the menu manipulation glitches blindfolded
20:28:55 <Lymia> It'd need to be still a tarpit while capable of...
20:29:10 <Lymia> At minimum: Defining classes with supertypes, implementing interfaces, overriding methods, doing basic OO operators
20:29:14 <ais523> I'm trying to figure out what properties of JVM bytecode even give it its TCness
20:29:31 <wob_jonas> this year was blue and yellow glitchless with the same controller
20:29:46 <ais523> I don't think it's possible to create two stacks without using objects to create linked lists, assuming integers have capped sizes
20:29:54 <ais523> (otherwise you can realloc arrays to get your storage)
20:30:20 <Lymia> I believe the JVM is only TC with the use of objects
20:30:27 <wob_jonas> ais523: isn't it the built-in classes like arrays that give it TC-ness the easiest way, just like in smalltalk on ruby?
20:30:52 <ais523> this sentence has caused several /months/ of additional work for one of my coworkers
20:31:08 <Lymia> What do you work on, such that this is an issue for you?
20:31:18 <ais523> but arrays themselves don't act like objects of a standard class
20:31:45 <ais523> Lymia: well, part of my job is low-level JVM hacking
20:32:21 <wob_jonas> oh man, you don't want to know the ugly details I found out about VBA (Visual Basic Automation) recently. it's a very old language, but still used, and it's very ugly.
20:32:28 <Lymia> As in, like, what does your company do that necessitates that?
20:32:48 <ais523> wob_jonas: VBA is something like the third programming language I learned
20:32:52 <ais523> and it was my main language for years
20:32:52 <wob_jonas> they have a dictionary type in its standard library, but no easy way to sort a fucking array. the dictionary doesn't help because it's not a sorted one, it's an unordered one.
20:32:56 <ais523> at the time I didn't know better
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20:33:20 <wob_jonas> ais523: I'm luckier, I learned word basic, the original macro language from words 2 and word 6.
20:33:29 <ais523> Lymia: I'm a research programmer, my job's basically to implement ideas for new programming languages / techniques that other researchers come up with
20:33:45 <Lymia> And you've targeted the JVM before?
20:33:56 <ais523> it's kind-of mindblowing that I effectively ended up with a job in esoprogramming
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20:34:08 <Lymia> My first real programming language was Java.
20:34:20 <Lymia> I don't use Java anymore unless I need to
20:34:30 <ais523> in this case I'm working with existing Java code and attempting to transform it in ways that preserve its semantics
20:35:18 <wob_jonas> ais523: and I ended up with a job (that I think of as temporary) where I program VBA. it's not like I wanted to program VBA, but that's the programming interface a certain commercal program offers, so I have to use it at least in part.
20:35:43 <ais523> there are a lot of people working on this, though; I'm mostly working on the runtime
20:35:44 <Lymia> Idea for a JVM tarpit: The only thing the language can do are field accesses, and method calls.
20:35:50 <wob_jonas> I partly use it to export data to a file and then parse that file with a saner programming language, but this still involves a lot of digging around in VBA and its interface
20:36:17 <Lymia> Javascript still has math operators :P
20:36:53 <wob_jonas> I'm a mathematician and I don't think javascript addition and subtraction are math operations
20:37:22 <wob_jonas> you know, like the php == operator, but even more weird
20:38:28 <Lymia> Can you create a useful Java program with only if(), field accesses, and method calls? (Not even literals)
20:38:30 <wob_jonas> but yeah, it also has builtin while loops and such
20:38:36 <Lymia> That could be reduced into an esolang, I think
20:38:38 <ais523> Lymia: you don't need if
20:38:51 <ais523> Church booleans are the way to go here
20:39:18 <Lymia> If this language can define objects
20:39:30 <wob_jonas> ais523: so just embed lambda calculus in it, creating functions from strings with the same trick that jsfuck does?
20:39:40 <Lymia> It can make implicit branches via virtual methods.
20:39:44 <Lymia> So, no need for if.
20:39:50 <ais523> public class ChurchTrue implements ChurchBoolean { @Override public <T> if_(Supplier<T> ifFalse, Supplier<T> ifTrue) { return ifTrue.get(); }}
20:40:16 <ais523> wob_jonas: you cannot use the same trick as JSFuck in Java
20:40:26 <ais523> although []+=` is the minimum known TC character subset of JavaScript
20:40:31 <wob_jonas> sorry, I just thought of javascript
20:40:50 <wob_jonas> Lymia: do you mean without method definitions?
20:40:51 <ais523> this mostly relies on how hideously overloaded + is
20:40:56 <wob_jonas> as in, you only call built-in methods?
20:40:58 <ais523> eventually we start using it to call functions
20:41:09 <ais523> wob_jonas: where would you put the calls?
20:41:21 <wob_jonas> ais523: a single main method, I'd say
20:41:33 <Lymia> I don't think this is doable without some access to method definitions.
20:41:48 <ais523> in Java you can't even write any code without defining a method
20:42:00 <wob_jonas> but you'd use the built-in library and call standard methods from it
20:42:00 <Lymia> Also, we need a sufficiently esoteric syntax. :B
20:42:18 <Lymia> You need some way to get access to "machine" bools/ints
20:42:23 <Lymia> To call into the stdlib and do anything useful.
20:42:46 <ais523> I think "Church Java" might be more interesting
20:42:55 <ais523> but it's basically just typed lambda calculus with a ridiculously verbose syntax :-D
20:43:29 <Lymia> That sounds Java-like
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20:43:43 <Lymia> "ridiculously verbose" is sure an description of that language
20:45:03 <ais523> modern Java isn't as bad as it used to be, but it's still quite bad
20:45:32 <ais523> instead of defining the ChurchTrue class you could just write «(f,t)->t.get()» whenever you wanted to use it
20:45:37 <ais523> as long as the type was clear from context
20:45:43 <Lymia> I do kinda want this to be "OOP taken ridiculously far" in how it feels.
20:45:52 <Lymia> But reducing it to actually FP concepts implemented using OOP functions is...
20:46:17 <wob_jonas> isn't smalltalk already OOP taken ridiculously far?
20:46:25 <Lymia> Too much OOP, and you have 100 classes that each do nothing. This is a language where classes can't do anything but call other stuff.
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20:47:27 <Lymia> A perverse enough language that BigInteger.ONE may be your best way of actually getting your hands on the ability to do math.
20:48:18 <ais523> you could probably wrangle up something out of the streams API
20:50:13 <Lymia> Syntatically, a method body can just be a list of method/function/etc names.
20:50:49 <Lymia> java.math.BigInteger.ONE; java.math.BigInteger.ONE; java.math.BigInteger.add(java.math.BigInteger);
20:51:51 <ais523> this language seems to have a severe lack of being able to store things long-term, due to the lack of a dup
20:52:07 <ais523> there's no way to produce more than one of a value
20:52:25 <ais523> which means that you can't, say, use an array to store things because once you read one of the elements, all the others will be lost
20:52:27 <Lymia> Right, since there's also no multiple return.
20:54:49 <Lymia> The simplest escape clause is the ability to reference method arguments multiple times, right?
20:55:52 <Lymia> It acts as a dup without there being an obviously "doesn't belong here" operation
20:57:03 <Lymia> What would be missing?
20:57:57 <wob_jonas> I was thinking of a language that only has function definitions, where functions call other functions or conditionals, but no currying or function pointers, and it's not TC in itself, you need some way to store data, such as arrays or heap-allocated pairs or something
20:58:07 <wob_jonas> you'd only have a call stack, which isn't TC in itself
20:58:37 <wob_jonas> you can compile any program to a single-stack machine with limited depth
20:58:48 <wob_jonas> limited depth of how deep you can reach the stack that is
20:58:59 <wob_jonas> you know, just the ordinary one-stack machines
20:59:36 <Lymia> Isn't this enough to implement some subset of lambda calculus? (Assuming there's access to defining/implementing JVM interfaces)
20:59:48 <Lymia> All of it, basically
20:59:55 <wob_jonas> Lymia: no, because there are no function pointers or closures
21:00:19 <ais523> wob_jonas: apart from the "separate way to store data" you're thinking of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Splinter
21:00:29 <Lymia> Objects in Java can have virtual methods, and ctors effectively create closures.
21:00:36 <Lymia> (Assuming you can treat constructors as static methods)
21:03:15 <ais523> Lymia: constructors are instance methods in the JVM, IIRC
21:03:26 <ais523> you construct an uninitialised object first then call the ctor on it
21:03:40 <Lymia> The language implementation can paper over this minor quibble :P
21:05:37 <wob_jonas> ais523: if you learned VBA, can you tell if I'm missing something stupid, or it really doesn't have any easy way to sort an array?
21:06:04 <ais523> I learned it when I was much younger and less understanding of programming style
21:06:11 <wob_jonas> I've seen actual sort implementations online on stack overflow or something
21:06:14 <ais523> I don't think I even /used/ arrays
21:06:28 <ais523> I mostly used it with Excel and placed values into the cells to do an array-like storage
21:06:28 <wob_jonas> which seems to suggest that there is no built in
21:14:11 <Lymia> https://pastebin.com/bLLqghKq
21:14:18 <Lymia> A quick sketch of how this language could look
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21:16:15 <zzo38> They are soon adding big integer arithmetic into JavaScript though, I think it is a good idea because then 64-bit integer arithmetic is possible (it is also helpful when you need unbounded integers, but they can also be used as 64-bit integers when that is what you need).
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21:49:47 <Taneb> What are some cool implications of the continuum hypothesis (or its negation)?
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22:47:37 <Lymia> Surely this exists somewhere as an esolang.
22:48:04 <Lymia> A language with no explicitly defined text representation, and a well-defined IPA pronouncation
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00:11:45 <ais523> Lymia: I can't think of a language like that; the closest I can get is /ˈæmbiːɛf/'s /name/ (but the language itself is represented in text form)
00:12:26 <Lymia> Is there a speech recognization module sufficient for the interpreter? :D
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00:53:10 <Hooloovo0> hmm, interesting, a cross conlang/esolang
01:14:44 <\oren\> Lymia: well, the only way to specify such a language would be if the spec was an audio recording and not in text form
01:15:11 <\oren\> otherwise one could use the text representation used in the spec
01:15:21 <Lymia> You could write IPA down on paper.
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07:23:43 <wob_jonas> recent article on the Wizards website "https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/card-preview/omniscience-2018-06-19" previewing Omniscience in the M2019 core set explicitly mentions "to the Legacy deck that puts Omniscience into play with Show and Tell"
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08:18:46 <esowiki> [[Parenthesisfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56702 * A * (+241) Created page with "==Syntax(and proof to be Turing-complete)== (while ...) Same as Brainfuck [] (add p1 p2) equivalent to Brainfuck symbols "<>+-". The 1st parameter is the adding times(can be..."
08:19:23 <esowiki> [[Parenthesisfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56703&oldid=56702 * A * (+80)
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09:28:57 <wob_jonas> wow. so after Jayemdae Tome and Scepter of Imsight, wizards found that they're still too expensive for that effect and print Arcane Encyclopedia?
09:29:33 <wob_jonas> and they even spell it that instead of Encyclopædia? how is that arcane then?
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09:44:49 <wob_jonas> zzo38: reminder that you should download http://media.wizards.com/2018/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020180713.txt
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11:13:20 <int-e> `` (echo a | gzip; echo abcdefghijklmnopq) | gzip -d
11:13:21 <HackEso> \ gzip: stdin: decompression OK, trailing garbage ignored \ a
11:13:28 <int-e> `` (echo a | xz; echo abcdefghijklmnopq) | xz -d
11:13:29 <HackEso> xz: (stdin): Compressed data is corrupt \ a
11:13:51 <int-e> `` (echo a | xz; echo b | xz) | xz -d
11:15:05 <int-e> `` (echo a | gzip; echo b | gzip) | gzip -d # I didn't know that this is allowed
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12:33:37 <wob_jonas> For each of handkerchiefs, shirts, T-shirts, when I wash them, I always put them in the cupboars on the right or bottom of stacks of each, and try to choose one from the left or top when I need one, to try to ensure that I wear them off at an equal amount. But this doesn't work well, because they tend to get clustered to two or three groups of colo
12:33:37 <wob_jonas> rs, since that's how I put them in the washing machine.
12:33:50 <wob_jonas> I don't have the same problem with plates, which I also rotate in such a way.
12:37:59 <wob_jonas> int-e: I think gzip allows that for the sake of people who archive files with tar|gzip to actual tapes.
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19:02:43 <zzo38> wob_jonas: OK I downloaded that file thank you
19:08:43 <HackEso> 267) <lament> elliott: well what i would do if i were omniscient and omnipotent would be to create an immortal woman with perfect tits and bang her for the rest of eternity \ 290) <olsner> boston cream pie? sounds related to a cleveland steamer
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21:07:42 <Fogity> I am making my own (sort off) esolang, and just got the interpreter to run it's first program (hello world, sort off). \o/
21:09:50 <Fogity> The language is a functional emoji-based language.
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21:43:16 <Fogity> I also got a working "yes" program: 🆕👍💬🔤👍🔤👍🛑👍
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01:10:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Elyatai * New user account
01:14:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56704&oldid=56660 * Elyatai * (+184)
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06:04:40 <zzo38> Now SQLite has the function like the bit interleave operator of INTERCAL. (It is not part of the core library, but it is included in the source tree.)
06:05:02 <zzo38> Did you know that?
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06:40:31 <esowiki> [[Hanabi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56705 * Elyatai * (+5293) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Hanabi |author=[[User:Elyatai]] |paradigms=imperative |year=[[:Category:2018|2018]] |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] |files=<code>..."
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06:49:28 <esowiki> [[Hanabi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56706&oldid=56705 * Elyatai * (+52)
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07:56:25 <esowiki> [[Hanabi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56707&oldid=56706 * Elyatai * (+0)
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09:12:04 <Taneb> Google's suddenly decided I look very much like a robot
09:21:38 <izabera> Taneb: you do look a bit like a robot
09:22:37 <Taneb> Maybe it's something to do with Cambridge
09:50:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Definer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56708 * A * (+115) Created page with "==How about loops?== Why not add some loops? Or, add recursion. That could make it a lot more useful. --[[User:A]]"
09:50:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:Definer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56709&oldid=56708 * A * (-1) /* How about loops? */
09:53:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Definer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56710&oldid=56709 * A * (+18) /* How about loops? */
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10:34:35 <esowiki> [[PISW]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56711 * A * (+853) Created page with "PISW(Paradigm Is String-Rewriting) is an extremely simplified esolang by [[User:A]]. ==Syntax== It has 2 parts: Fun Str ===The Box Fun=== This is the function defenition. Li..."
10:37:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Definer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56712&oldid=56710 * A * (+15) /* How about loops? */
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11:16:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Random]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56713&oldid=17764 * A * (+155) /* Turing completeness */
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12:41:23 <mniip> I wonder how quickly I can write a functional language interpreter
12:45:02 <Taneb> Any quicker and you'll get too distracted
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12:48:20 <mniip> using yoctoparsec for comedy value
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13:10:13 <wob_jonas> depends on how much of a toy language or real language you interpret, and how efficiently you want to interpret it
13:11:23 <wob_jonas> I have this dump interpreter that I think I wrote in like two days, but it's really a toy language that you wouldn't want to use in practice: https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Scripts/Scheme
13:11:46 <wob_jonas> in theory it's turing-complete, but it's certainly not a practical language
13:12:08 <wob_jonas> I have two other older interpreters linked from the wiki that interpret a toy language, I think one of them isn't even turing-complete
13:16:35 <mniip> wob_jonas, the idea is to compile a simply typed lambda calculus with letrec to assembly or something
13:17:01 <wob_jonas> mniip: didn't you want an interpreter, rather than a compiler?
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13:21:37 <mniip> my current idea is to produce machine code in named blocks with relocations linking the blocks together, and let binutils' as handle it
13:22:16 <mniip> yet to come up with a calling/entering convention
13:25:22 <wob_jonas> is this lazy or strict evaluation of the lambda calculus?
13:27:02 <wob_jonas> are the representation of all the values you handle are the same because you only have lambda functions, or do you want to add integers or algebraic types or something that requires a different representation?
13:27:18 <wob_jonas> and how would you handle allocation and garbage-collection of the lambda terms?
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13:27:38 <Taneb> mniip: yoctoparsec seems a neat toy parser
13:27:48 <mniip> a walkable heap and periodic invocations to C/assembly RTS code
13:28:47 <Taneb> I know... far less than I'd like about writing compilers
13:29:07 <mniip> I feel like I know how all the pieces work - it's just that I've never put the puzzle together
13:29:36 <mniip> well I have about 4 days
13:29:39 <wob_jonas> I definitely don't know how all the pieces work: specifically I don't know much about the ELF format and how it's used in modern programs
13:30:17 <mniip> wob_jonas, I know enough about ELF to create a "modern" program but I'm willing to let binutils do the job
13:30:18 <esowiki> [[String-rewriting paradigm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56714 * A * (+307) Created page with "{{Distinguish/Confusion|Category:String-rewriting paradigm}} ==Syntax== It only has 2 extremely simple commands. They are: > This moves the next byte to the end of the progra..."
13:30:48 <mniip> (I've written a toy dynamic linker before)
13:31:21 <wob_jonas> what cpu is this compiling for, and do you know enough about its instruction set and rules?
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13:31:49 <wob_jonas> I actually know a lot about x86_64
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13:32:01 <mniip> Taneb, I realized Parser Maybe is absolutely useless
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13:32:14 <mniip> as you internally have Maybe (Either a (Parser ...))
13:32:25 <wob_jonas> The other part I really don't understand is how to do register allocation in any way that isn't very dump
13:32:28 <mniip> you have to decide whether your parse ended without any lookahead
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13:32:37 <mniip> not planning to do any of those :p
13:33:16 <wob_jonas> perhaps some time in the future I'll try to learn all this and write a compiler, although for a very different language that you're imagining
13:33:32 <wob_jonas> but it definitely seems like a very large project that takes a lot of time
13:38:09 <esowiki> [[String-rewriting paradigm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56715&oldid=56714 * A * (-9)
13:40:06 <esowiki> [[String-rewriting paradigm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56716&oldid=56715 * A * (+54) /* Syntax */
13:45:15 <mniip> I think I understand parsec's backtracking decision now...
13:49:59 <esowiki> [[Category:String-rewriting paradigm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56717&oldid=7907 * A * (+92) Trying to extend the stub description.
13:52:30 <wob_jonas> I consider the parser the easiest part, because I understand some of the theory of how they work, and because I get to define the syntax so I define it such that it's easier to parse than real languages.
13:57:54 <esowiki> [[StubScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56718 * A * (+328) Created page with "{{Stub}} StubScript is an extremely simplified esolang that it made this article a stub. ==Syntax== It has only 1 instruction: > Move the first byte to the end of program. An..."
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14:12:28 <esowiki> [[StubScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56719&oldid=56718 * A * (+62)
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14:17:13 <esowiki> [[Infinite Loop]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56720 * A * (+398) Created page with "An infinite loop is a program that loops infinitely, never stopping. For example, the C program below: main(){main();} is an infinite loop. (Obviously, I golfed it) ==Pseudoc..."
14:19:06 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56721&oldid=56691 * A * (+22) /* Jumping */
14:24:30 <esowiki> [[Looping Counter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56722 * A * (+496) Created page with "A looping counter is a counter using loops. It counts up to infinity or a specific number(or possibly down to a specific number). ==Example in Slashes(///)== [[User:A]] found..."
14:25:11 <esowiki> [[Looping Counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56723&oldid=56722 * A * (+44) /* Example in Slashes(///) */
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14:35:46 <esowiki> [[Disan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56724 * A * (+65) Created page with "==Syntax== It has only1 command, D, to implement the Disan Count."
14:36:19 <oerjan> hm maybe that was a spammer.
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14:37:08 <oerjan> Cardiacsfan: you should fix your connection
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14:37:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Disan Count]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56725&oldid=53631 * A * (+111)
14:37:45 * oerjan realizes he doesn't know how one actually does that.
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14:38:53 <mniip> oerjan, a nickname ban with $##fix_your_connection at the end usually suffices
14:39:35 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -bCn #esoteric!*@*.
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14:40:01 <oerjan> GOD I HATE IT WHEN I GET /MODE'S ARGUMENT ORDER WRONG
14:40:39 <oerjan> mniip: i meant how one actually fixes a connection hth
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14:41:30 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +bC #esoteric!*@*.
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14:42:57 <oerjan> i hope i didn't mess up anything.
14:43:50 <oerjan> if i forget that the channel should come first, it ends up interpreting every character in the banned address as a mode, i think.
14:44:19 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
14:44:34 <mniip> you didn't include the $ redirect
14:45:55 <oerjan> /mode #esoteric -b ~Cardiacsf@ppp118-210-141-70.bras1.adl6.internode.on.net$##fix_your_connection
14:46:04 <mniip> oh duh that was a -b
14:46:18 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
14:46:32 <mniip> + is for adding, b is for ban
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14:46:44 <mniip> also there's still #esoteric!*@*
14:46:51 <mniip> which you again added instead of removing!
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14:48:39 <oerjan> the problem is that bans are so rare that i forget the syntax between each time :(
14:49:16 <oerjan> and also that irssi or possibly the server does its darnest to interpret a /mode command as something sensible when it isn't.
14:52:12 <mniip> irssi is interfering too
14:52:25 <mniip> it interprets /mode foo #chan as /mode #chan foo #chan
14:52:39 <mniip> if you sent MODE foo #chan the server would've told you no
14:52:43 <oerjan> wob_jonas: hi! i have the same rotation policy as you as my things but because i've got such a monotonous clothing style that only my handkerchiefs get separated into two color groups (white and not)
14:53:47 <wob_jonas> oerjan: wait, you use actual handkerchiefs? it seemed like everyone but me stopped using them by now. even my brother did. that's part of the reason why I have so many.
14:54:06 <esowiki> [[Collatz function]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56726&oldid=56656 * A * (+26) Obviously a program form.
14:54:11 <oerjan> actually it's just for fix_your_connection bans, which i need to use /mode for. otherwise i use the more sensible /ban or /kickban commands.
14:54:35 <oerjan> not that others are common either.
14:55:44 <mniip> depending on your client you might able to use /ban for it
14:55:48 <oerjan> wob_jonas: when i'm at home i use paper towels but when i carry a handkerchief to use when i don't have something else around.
14:56:03 <oerjan> seeriously, my grammer
14:56:38 <Taneb> You're spelling (sic)
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14:57:16 <wob_jonas> oerjan: is your clothing style more monotonous than that of Hari Seldon?
14:57:23 <oerjan> Taneb: that was in10tional
14:57:28 <oerjan> wob_jonas: quite possibly.
14:57:47 <oerjan> (i don't actually know how monotonous that is)
14:58:13 <wob_jonas> one of the later books describe it, I think
14:58:24 <wob_jonas> he has several copies of the same shirt and suit I think
14:58:36 <wob_jonas> I don't recall which book that was
14:58:47 <wob_jonas> well, it can only be two of them, or maybe three
14:59:20 <Taneb> wob_jonas: I've not read the prequels and it doesn't sound familiar to me so I think you can narrow it down to two
14:59:37 <wob_jonas> Prelude to Foundation, Forward the Foundation, or Foundation’s Fear, but the latter is unlikely
15:00:05 <Taneb> Ah, I thought you thought it may have been the first chapter of Foundation
15:00:06 <oerjan> i have several copies too
15:00:40 <Taneb> I should try to grab a copy of the prequels
15:00:55 <wob_jonas> IIRC it is just a short note where either Dors or Hari himself mentions that Dors was surprised when he first saw Hari's wardrobe which contained just several copies of the exact same clothes
15:02:13 <oerjan> oh hm, my actual towels aren't all identical, but they're similar enough to each other that i don't separate them in laundry.
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15:03:55 <oerjan> except for one, which i don't use, precisely because i would have to separate laundry for just that one. and i once had a red one that i threw away after discovering it _really_ shouldn't be washed together with the rest.
15:05:31 <wob_jonas> I actually have much more trouble with clothes that leave lint on all other clothes washed together than anything connected to dyes and color. I don't like clothes that emit lint. It's very hard to clean other clothes if I accidentally wash them together, so they're usually not worth the bother.
15:06:35 <wob_jonas> But I still separate shirts to at least white versus non-white, althoguh this is probably misguided, I should separate them to bright-colored and dark-colored, with bright-colored ones washed with whitening washing liquid.
15:07:00 <wob_jonas> And sometimes I separate them to three color groups if I have a lot of them dirty.
15:07:33 <wob_jonas> Which is exactly what happened now, so now I have three color groups of T-shirts separated in my wardrobe and I should mix them up or something.
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15:19:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Definer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56727&oldid=56712 * A * (+37) /* How about loops? */
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15:53:15 <oerjan> `learn A cupboar is a very small boar. They may be found in cupboards.
15:53:17 <HackEso> Learned 'cupboar': A cupboar is a very small boar. They may be found in cupboards.
15:54:02 <oerjan> `learn A cupboar is a very small boar. They may be found in cupboards. Do not aggravate them, especially if you have fine china.
15:54:05 <HackEso> Relearned 'cupboar': A cupboar is a very small boar. They may be found in cupboards. Do not aggravate them, especially if you have fine china.
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16:01:39 <Taneb> `learn cupboard is a daemon for creating and managing cupboars.
16:01:41 <HackEso> Learned 'cupboard': cupboard is a daemon for creating and managing cupboars.
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16:02:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Definer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56728&oldid=56727 * Ais523 * (+234) /* How about loops? */ it already has them
16:03:09 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[Infinite Loop]] to [[Infinite loop]]: Capitalization
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16:04:41 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[Looping Counter]] to [[Looping counter]]: Capitalization
16:07:04 <esowiki> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56733&oldid=56731 * Oerjan * (-7) /// is the name, "slashes" is wimpmode. Also I'm pretty sure *I* found that.
16:08:06 <esowiki> [[Category:String-rewriting paradigm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56734&oldid=56717 * Oerjan * (-92) Undo revision 56717 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) (This is simply not true for all of these.)
16:14:26 <esowiki> [[Infinite loop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56735&oldid=56729 * Ais523 * (+1814) /* Implementability */ not all languages with control flow can do this, surprisingly
16:18:04 <esowiki> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56736&oldid=56733 * Ais523 * (+138) /* Examples */ although that isn't a copyvio (it's a public domain source), let's link by reference rather than copying, as the example makes more sense with context; also expand the section to another language and add some explanation
16:19:07 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Looping Counter]]": rm manual caps redirect; the search box does this automatically, and it's not a likely capitalisation for a link
16:19:39 <esowiki> [[StubScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56737&oldid=56719 * Ais523 * (+0) caps
16:19:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Infinite Loop]]": rm manual caps redirect; the search box does this automatically, and it's not a likely capitalisation for a link
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16:30:12 <mniip> what do I do with constructors
16:30:49 <mniip> do I generate an arity-n function for an n-ary constructor and then partially or fully apply it whenever
16:31:57 <mniip> I suppose that's the way to go
16:32:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:Random]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56738&oldid=56713 * Ais523 * (+1306) /* Turing completeness */ a blueprint for this
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17:15:58 <HackEso> olist 1127: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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17:42:47 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yeah, exactly, that's what I came in to sa
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23:38:01 <oerjan> this is starting to look like a good time for the three fiends to call in their second debt
23:38:35 <shachaf> whose side were the fiends on, again?
23:39:01 <oerjan> it is not quite clear who'd they support in this case, indeed
23:39:59 <shachaf> does http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html predate the introduction of the fiends?
23:45:14 <oerjan> that does seem like a bit of foreshadowing
23:46:16 <shachaf> My faulty memory told me that it was the fiends who made the comment about the sides.
23:46:47 <oerjan> they did want the pyramid gate to get destroyed, but that could be either to destroy all the gates or to get the gods to destroy the world
23:48:44 <oerjan> for the latter, taking varsuuvius out of action in a moment would be the obvious move
23:49:38 <oerjan> (assuming he gets back into action first)
23:52:20 <oerjan> otoh they have to fail at it for the story to continue...
00:00:30 <oerjan> which might be a plot reason for them _not_ to do it - it would keep them seemingly infallible
00:02:53 <shachaf> They only used their shortest one so far, right?
00:04:27 <oerjan> ...i thought it was the longest? time to check.
00:08:11 <shachaf> http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html and http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html
00:08:16 <shachaf> So there's one short and one long one left.
00:27:12 <oerjan> thanks, i didn't find the first one
00:27:46 <oerjan> and naturally got drawn into archive binging...
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00:41:22 <oerjan> that globe in the last girl genius appears to have atlantis
00:41:59 <shachaf> oerjan was drawin into archive binging so much that he's reading the wrong comic
00:42:21 <oerjan> and a strange red broken line
00:42:37 <oerjan> well, i got better and went back to my usual webcrawl
00:42:43 <oerjan> which is a bit delayed
00:43:26 <oerjan> so apparently gil never saw the one in mechanicsburg, i guess tarvek wasn't close enough
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03:17:16 <esowiki> [[This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56739&oldid=31337 * A * (+251)
03:19:42 <esowiki> [[This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56740&oldid=56739 * A * (+12) Oops! I did this wrong.
03:21:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56741&oldid=23195 * A * (+117)
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03:29:45 <esowiki> [[Multi-machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56742 * A * (+437) Created page with "A Multi-machine is an extremely simple program type invented bt [[User:A]] to check decision, looping, addition, subtraction, termination, input, and output in a simpler way c..."
03:35:39 <esowiki> [[Multi-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56743&oldid=56742 * A * (-9)
03:37:40 <esowiki> [[Multi-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56744&oldid=56743 * A * (+224)
03:54:43 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56745&oldid=56697 * A * (+92) /* Definer */
03:58:46 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56746&oldid=56745 * A * (-3) /* Definer */
04:04:49 <mniip> I think I understand the importance of the Stg and Cmm internal languages now
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04:07:15 <esowiki> [[Definer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56747&oldid=22105 * A * (+175) /* Examples */
04:10:22 <esowiki> [[Definer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56748&oldid=56747 * A * (-12) /* Examples */
04:18:07 <esowiki> [[Definer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56749&oldid=56748 * A * (+18) /* Examples */
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07:30:25 <mniip> I just compiled my first thing
07:31:19 <mniip> provided, it was very simple: main = main
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07:48:14 <wob_jonas> can you also compile a hello world?
07:48:25 <wob_jonas> or do you have no IO in this thing?
07:48:32 <mniip> I'm currently inspecting the assembly for 'id' and (.) to see if it's correct
07:49:09 <mniip> then I'll implement compilation of constructors and pattern matches
07:49:16 <mniip> then probably let-bindings
07:49:36 <mniip> and I need to figure out what to do with non-trivial pattern bindings in lets or global scope
07:49:55 <wob_jonas> mniip: so you'll have algebraic types?
07:50:24 <wob_jonas> arbitrary algebraic types that you can define in simply typed, or just a few built-in ones?
07:50:35 <mniip> there isn't a typechecker yet btw
07:50:43 <Lymia> How much can I cheat
07:50:45 <wob_jonas> that just makes the typechecker harder, not the code generation
07:50:50 <mniip> there's a "data" declaration
07:50:57 <Lymia> By compiling a Haskell-like language to Rust. :D
07:51:10 <mniip> Lymia, not by much
07:51:39 <Lymia> It avoids all the low level nightmares like low level representation of ADTs.
07:54:05 <mniip> wob_jonas, oh and there's no GC yet lol
07:54:27 <Lymia> I suppose what I mean is
07:54:43 <wob_jonas> mniip: sure, you can add the GC later
07:54:51 <Lymia> I get to avoid all the less fun low level stuff, and just focus on the interesting stuff like the type inference.
07:55:16 <mniip> Lymia, then write a lambda calculus interpreter in haskell
07:55:43 <wob_jonas> mniip: do you optimize function calls with multiple arguments so you don't create a temporary bound function when the compiler sees the first argument and then call into that when it sees the second argument?
07:56:07 <mniip> it's a chain of closures with increasingly more upvalues
07:56:37 <mniip> their entry code is very short though
07:56:53 <wob_jonas> wait, is this because you're doing a lazy interpreter?
07:58:38 <mniip> of course, call by name like I said
07:59:17 <wob_jonas> why? do you just want a mini-haskell interpreter?
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08:00:36 <wob_jonas> ouch. but if that's what you want, sure, go on
08:03:25 <Lymia> How hard are thunks to implement anyway?
08:04:36 <Taneb> I imagine they're something that are easy to implement in a way that's subtly wrong
08:05:26 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, the fiends did make such a comment too, not only xykon: see http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html and http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html
08:05:45 <wob_jonas> especially the first one. in the second one they just misdirect Vaarsuvius
08:07:45 <mniip> gdb will rewrite f__g into f.g
08:09:50 <mniip> it also cannot infer arguments correctly for some reason?
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08:12:24 <wob_jonas> mniip: that latter is probably because you didn't use the right calling conventino
08:13:01 <mniip> the code works fine
08:13:24 <mniip> it's just that gdb keeps telling things are different from what they are
08:14:11 <wob_jonas> do you write any debug info? maybe gdb doesn't know how many and what type of arguments your functions have.
08:16:35 <mniip> I run 'as' with -g and the rts C code is compiled with -g
08:17:31 <wob_jonas> mniip: um, but as won't know how many arguments your assembly function has. it will just know to write debug info to identify all symbols, such as all functions where they know the name because the as code has it.
08:18:02 <mniip> wob_jonas, no like when I invoke a C function
08:18:13 <mniip> I put stuff into %rdi, %rsi, %rdx, %rcx, ...
08:18:33 <wob_jonas> and is that C function compiled with debugging info too?
08:18:36 <mniip> and the compiled C code looks for arguments in exactly those registers
08:18:49 <mniip> but for some reason gdb looks elsewhere
08:19:04 <wob_jonas> also, you've made sure that you don't run a too old gdb or a too old gcc, right? ancient gdb has mysterious bugs.
08:19:15 <wob_jonas> anything from the last few years should be fine
08:19:31 <wob_jonas> unless it's Apple's releases of course
08:21:53 <wob_jonas> and you do the linking with ld in gnu binutils or gold from gcc, so the debug info should get correctly propagated, right?
08:24:27 <wob_jonas> I wonder if there's a way to directly ask gdb what he thinks the prototype of that function is, even if it's not called
08:24:53 <wob_jonas> I guess you could try to ls that function, which should at least make sure that some debug info got through.
08:26:11 <wob_jonas> shachaf: the comment about what evil people want and that they're not one happy family
08:26:32 <wob_jonas> re "<shachaf> My faulty memory told me that it was the fiends who made the comment about the sides."
08:26:44 <shachaf> Oh, but I remembered the specific phrasing.
08:26:51 <shachaf> "they don't know about some of those yet"
08:26:56 <shachaf> So it was definitely faulty memory.
08:26:56 <wob_jonas> the fiends say they don't want either side among Redcloak's Team Evil and the OOTS to win
08:30:19 <mniip> ah er I just fixed a bug
08:32:01 <mniip> so. constructors and pattern matching
08:32:31 <wob_jonas> can you compile function calls and lambdas with upvalues (closures) yet?
08:33:28 <mniip> I mean it wouldn't be much of a challenge if I didn't implvement upvalue handling duh
08:47:42 <wob_jonas> mniip: sure, but you could implement handling algebraic types and pattern matching into local variables before you implement function calls
08:48:31 <wob_jonas> yes, local to the function you have, which is built out of constructors and general pattern matching including let
08:51:09 <wob_jonas> but I guess if you want this to be a mini-haskell, then it makes sense to start with closures on the heap, since they're already TC
09:02:27 <Taneb> mniip: you're making me want to try writing a compiler
09:11:34 <wob_jonas> mniip: anyway, that was quick. you only started writing this yesterday. I'll be interested to see what you get when it's ready.
09:19:57 <mniip> okay so pattern matching is where local variables come in
09:22:08 <wob_jonas> mniip: yes. pattern matching binds values into local variables.
09:22:28 <wob_jonas> are you implementing general pattern matching, or just matching on a single level of constructor?
09:22:36 <mniip> general, shouldn't be an issue
09:22:38 <wob_jonas> I mean, general patterns which can be nested or even just a variable
09:22:50 <mniip> data Pat = VarPat IdName | JoinPat Pat Pat | HolePat | DataPat IdName [Pat] deriving Show
09:23:24 <wob_jonas> and do you detect when the match patterns are exclusive so there's no need for an else clause? or will you only do that after a typechecker?
09:23:54 <mniip> it's not like I'm writing an optimizing or fast compiler
09:24:22 <mniip> not planning to compete with GHC, rather wanted something with similar runtime asymptotics
09:26:44 <mniip> what I mean, "length" should be linear time no matter the constant
09:27:04 <mniip> don't care if it does allocation on every iteration
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09:31:18 <Fogity> Hi, I just discovered thet it is "World Emoji Day" today, so I will be aiming to make a version 1.0.0 of my functional emoji language and release it (it already works atm). Currently the language supports function definition, string and number literals, input for strings and input and output for either literal. Oh, and it is completely restricted to emoji (input, output and source code). I am planning to add some arithmatic operations and perhaps num
09:31:19 <Fogity> input. Is there something important I am missing for a 1.0.0 version, do you think?
09:32:59 <shachaf> Zero-width joiners? Skin tone modifiers?
09:33:31 <wob_jonas> In my Olvasható translator, I require all matches to be exhaustive, but the translator itself doesn't check that, it's the SML interpreter that does
09:39:48 <Fogity> shachaf: I use the complete list of emoji, so all seqences of code points that are supposed to be displayed as one emoji (and classified as an emoji) are accepted, nothing else.
09:41:46 <Fogity> There are some key emoji that are used for language syntax, all other emoji may be used as function names.
09:45:48 <wob_jonas> Fogity: is there some way in which this will be better than the approximately five already existing emoji languages?
09:46:42 <Fogity> 1) it is functional, the others I have seen have been stack based or object oriented
09:47:26 <Fogity> 2) it is completely restricted to emoji, a pure emoji language per se
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09:49:16 <wob_jonas> Fogity: you're right, none of the others seem to be functional. most of them are stack-based.
09:56:39 <Fogity> Hmm, what do you think is a good license for a project like this?
09:56:40 <esowiki> [[Tom Murphy VII]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56750 * B jonas * (+380) Created page with "'''Tom Murphy VII''' PhD, also known as Tom7, is a creator of esoteric languages and other esoteric projects, mostly but not exclusively computer-related. Languages and other..."
09:57:02 <esowiki> [[Tom7]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56751 * B jonas * (+28) Redirected page to [[Tom Murphy VII]]
09:57:19 <esowiki> [[Wikiplia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56752&oldid=43289 * B jonas * (+44) identify creator
09:58:08 <esowiki> [[ABC (compiler)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56753&oldid=53729 * B jonas * (+19) link creator
09:58:40 <esowiki> [[Wikiplia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56754&oldid=56752 * B jonas * (-5) reclassify as a non-joke language
09:59:13 <esowiki> [[Tom Murphy VII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56755&oldid=56750 * B jonas * (+21)
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10:15:30 <esowiki> [[WysiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56756&oldid=51635 * B jonas * (-40) the homepage claims it's implemented. I didn't test.
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10:18:40 <esowiki> [[Y86]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56757&oldid=50888 * B jonas * (-49) /* Addressing modes */ dt already bolds its text, so no need to bold it again, and double bolding showed up strange in a browser
10:28:17 <esowiki> [[Incident]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56758&oldid=54404 * B jonas * (+24) /* See also */
10:28:19 <mniip> I did it wrong apparently
10:28:46 <mniip> evaluating 'g (f x)' would evaluate f
10:28:53 <mniip> which is not supposed to happen
10:29:17 <mniip> thankfully there's an easy fix
10:29:34 <mniip> it's supposed to create an 'f x' closure and feed that to g
10:29:38 <wob_jonas> but only up to its top-level constructor
10:29:53 <mniip> considering g is a function it's not going to have a constructor
10:30:39 <wob_jonas> it doesn't evaluate the upvalues or bound arguments of g
10:30:50 <wob_jonas> only evaluates which lambda in the source code it points to
10:31:20 <wob_jonas> yeah, that, everything is evaluated only up to its top level constructor when it's evaluated
10:32:12 <mniip> now I'm met with another problem
10:32:32 <mniip> it I have a JoinPat (VarPat "a") (DataPat "False" [])
10:32:41 <mniip> and I allocate a local variable for the 'a'
10:32:46 <mniip> and then the False match fails
10:32:53 <mniip> I have to deallocate the 'a'
10:33:21 <wob_jonas> what? you're already adding characters too? do you add numbers too?
10:34:09 <Taneb> wob_jonas: variable name
10:34:10 <mniip> 'a' is an identifier
10:34:20 <mniip> the JoinPat (VarPat "a") (DataPat "False" []) stands for something like
10:34:24 <mniip> case _ of a@False -> _
10:35:22 <wob_jonas> I was wondering on that, but JoinPat didn't make sense
10:36:14 <wob_jonas> those are called join patterns? I didn't know
10:36:40 <mniip> *Main> parse "foo = case _ of (a@False) -> _"
10:36:40 <mniip> Just [IdBndr (VarPat "foo") (Case (Id "_") [CaseBranch (JoinPat (VarPat "a") (DataPat "False" [])) (Id "_")])]
10:38:16 <wob_jonas> so that parses the contents of a module?
10:38:58 <wob_jonas> do you eventually want to make this be able to compile itself?
10:39:05 <mniip> I've had that idea
10:39:20 <mniip> but that might be complicated given the syntax of haskell
10:39:59 <wob_jonas> you'll have to restrict the compiler source code itself to a subset
10:40:22 <mniip> yeah but the 10 imports I have at the top
10:40:48 <wob_jonas> what I'd really like is compiler that can bootstrap itself in possibly multiple steps from an interpreter that is very simple
10:41:36 <wob_jonas> it bothers me a lot that Rust only has one implementation, and it can only be compiled by itself or a slightly earlier version of itself, so you need like fifty steps to bootstrap it if you don't yet have a rust compiler
10:42:08 <wob_jonas> so I hope someone will eventually make a gcc frontend that can compile rust
10:42:34 <Taneb> wob_jonas: GHC has a similar problem, I believe
10:42:42 <Taneb> Even though there are other Haskell implementations
10:43:46 <wob_jonas> because gcc can be bootstrapped much easier, in like six steps from any very old C compiler: first you compile an old version of gcc back when it was written in portable C and could be bootstrapped in two or three steps from any old C compiler but could already compile C++, then you bootstrap a modern gcc from that old gcc (you need this extra leve
10:43:46 <wob_jonas> l because gcc is written in C++ now)
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10:50:46 <mniip> Taneb, yeah definitely
10:50:59 <mniip> I don't think you can even bootstrap GHC HEAD on debian now
11:06:45 <wob_jonas> But to be fair, rustc is at least developped to easily do cross-compilation, so if someone adds a new target to it, they can bootstrap to that target from rustc running on existing well-supported targets.
11:07:08 <Taneb> mniip: what's stopping that?
11:07:25 <mniip> iirc GHC HEAD wants something newer than 8.0
11:07:40 <wob_jonas> Although I suspect that you still need some of a libc ported to the target for it.
11:08:11 <Taneb> Oh, I misunderstood what you meant, mniip
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11:08:28 <Taneb> I was thinking bootstrapping in many steps from C
11:08:31 <wob_jonas> Also, the rustc devs themselves distribute working easy to install precompiled binaries of rustc.
11:09:13 <wob_jonas> So if you don't care about bootstrapping, you can just download the latest of those, and get a working compiler, or compile trunk with it.
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11:09:36 <Taneb> And you were thinking bootstrapping in one step from system packages
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11:14:03 <esowiki> [[Frums]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56759 * A * (+1009) Created page with "Frums is a slightly modified version of [[Smurf]]. ==Syntax== " pushes the string, surrounded by " s and may contain newlines, " and \ escaped by \, onto the stack. "ok""\"..."
11:14:54 <esowiki> [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56760&oldid=56759 * A * (+54)
11:15:01 <esowiki> [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56761&oldid=56760 * A * (-1)
11:16:28 <esowiki> [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56762&oldid=56761 * A * (-102) /* Syntax */
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11:29:56 <esowiki> [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56766&oldid=56765 * A * (-155)
11:34:06 <esowiki> [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56767&oldid=56766 * A * (-51)
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12:40:59 <esowiki> [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56774&oldid=56773 * A * (+13)
12:49:56 <esowiki> [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56775&oldid=56774 * A * (-42)
13:05:00 <esowiki> [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56776&oldid=56775 * A * (-19)
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18:01:46 <mroman> Does anybody have some knowledge about how db storage engines work?
18:01:57 <mroman> Let's say I have a db with rows of fixed size and I wanna update a row
18:02:05 <mroman> I seek to the row's position, write the data, call fsync.
18:02:22 <mroman> BUT: The server crashes in the middle of the OS trying to write the data to disk
18:02:34 <mroman> so half of the row has been overwritten, the other half wasn't.
18:02:40 <mroman> which means I have now a corrupt row.
18:02:47 <mroman> so obviously that's not how it can work
18:03:53 <Hooloovo0> one way of solving that (at least how some filesystems do it) is to have a journal
18:04:16 <mroman> I actually don't overwrite the row but append a new row, then somehow mark the existing row as deprecated and the new row as visible
18:04:54 <mroman> appending the new row fsync is fairly trivial
18:05:17 <mroman> but how do you mark the other row as deprecated and the other row as visible?
18:05:37 <mroman> if I mark the existing one as deprecated and then the server crashes
18:05:46 <mroman> so I have a corruption again
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18:05:58 <wob_jonas> mroman: I can tell you how the atomic update is implemented
18:06:27 <wob_jonas> there are at least two ways to do it, neither always better than the other
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18:07:10 <mroman_> I NEED TO KNOW HOW THIS WORKS
18:07:11 <wob_jonas> mroman: I can tell you how the atomic update is implemented
18:07:15 <wob_jonas> there are at least two ways to do it, neither always better than the other
18:07:19 <esowiki> [[This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56781&oldid=56740 * Ais523 * (+723) /* Computational Class */ reformat
18:08:04 <wob_jonas> the simpler method is this: have a separate "transaction finished" bit and a "transaction file". the transaction finished bit is normally zero. when you want to do a write, which could update multiple rows in multiple tables in most DB engines,
18:08:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56782&oldid=56741 * Ais523 * (+485) /* This is Turing-complete? */ yes, it is
18:09:13 <wob_jonas> first record all the changes you will need to make to the main DB file, with addresses for where to make the changes, in the transaction file. then do a blocking fdatasync on the transaction file. (you'd technically only need a write barrier rather than an fdatasync, but there's no write barrier operation on disks because it wouldn't be possible to
18:09:13 <wob_jonas> implement them more efficiently than an fdatasync).
18:09:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Multi-machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56783 * Ais523 * (+224) an idea for making this more objective
18:10:09 <wob_jonas> then change the transaction bit to one, then do an fdatasync on the transaction bit. the trick here is that since you're updating just one bit, even if the hard disk crashes while syncing that bit, you'll be able to read it back as either a one or a zero, and either one is correct.
18:10:13 <mroman_> (but fdatasync doesn't sync file size afaik so if you _append_ to a file you'd need fsync?)
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18:11:04 <wob_jonas> then write the changes to the main database file, fdatasync that, then write zero to the transaction bit, and fdatasync that.
18:11:24 <wob_jonas> I think you can actually do this with just two fdatasyncs somehow instead of four, but I don't recall how.
18:12:08 <wob_jonas> and then the trick is, when you open the database, you check the transaction bit. normally it's zero. if it's nonzero, then you know that the program or the computer crashed during the operation of writing the changes back to the normal database file,
18:12:53 <wob_jonas> so you read the changes from the transaction file and write them back to the main database file (some of them might already been written, but that's not a problem), then fdatasync the main database file, then set the transaction finished bit to zero, then fdatasync that.
18:13:30 <wob_jonas> The second method goes the opposite way: instead of writing the changes to the transaction file, you write the old contents of the parts of the database file you change to the transaction file.
18:14:16 <wob_jonas> In that case, if you find that the transaction bit was one when you open the database, then you assume writing back the transaction was in progress, and you roll back that transaction to its previous clean state by copying the previous state from the transaction file.
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18:15:33 <wob_jonas> There are also some optimizations you can do, such as adding pointers and writing the new row in a different place so that the actual transaction only consists of a change of a pointer in the file, but these usually aren't used by databases, they're used by filesystems instead.
18:15:58 <wob_jonas> Since some modern filesystems offer you to guarantee consistency if the computer crashes.
18:16:13 <wob_jonas> Old filesystems like FAT didn't use to bother with that, in those cases if the computer crashes, the filesystem can be in an inconsistent state.
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18:17:00 <wob_jonas> You can repair them to a consistent state with a scan, but that may involve data loss.
18:17:01 <pikhq> I wonder if it's even really possible to implement FAT in such a way you get consistency in the case of a crash.
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18:17:53 <pikhq> I'm going to guess the answer is "not unless the underlying storage has some suitable atomic primitive, which by the way it probably doesn't"
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18:26:21 <wob_jonas> pikhq: I recommend reading https://sqlite.org/atomiccommit.html and https://sqlite.org/wal.html for how sqlite3 implements atomicity, it's more detailed and more correct than what I told you.
18:26:59 <wob_jonas> pikhq: it is possible, but only if you make sure you only use that implementation when you next open the file system. the transaction system is general enough that it can work on any file system, which is how ext2 was backwards-compatibly extended to ext3.
18:27:58 <wob_jonas> You could have a similar extension for FAT, but nobody cares enough about FAT to do it. FAT has bigger problems than this.
18:28:33 <wob_jonas> Note that despite its name, ext4 isn't backwards compatible with ext2 or ext3, it's a more modern and better file system, which can do more stuff because it breaks backwards compatibility completely.
18:30:04 <\oren\> Google chrome keeps crashing when I try to join a meeting on google meet
18:31:26 <mroman_> and I guess you do roughly the same things if fsync returns an error?
18:32:30 <wob_jonas> mroman: if fsync returns an error or if you run out of disk space, during the first part of this you can just rollback the transaction, during the second part of this you're screwed and you have to retry opening the database.
18:33:14 <wob_jonas> but if it's just running out of disk space, then the database can guarantee that that can never happen in the second phase. a disk hardware IO error (filing fsync) or running out of memory is always possible, but you just leave the state alone in those cases and hope for the best.
18:33:57 <wob_jonas> in general, if fsync gives you an error and this isn't a network file system, then you should be worried that your disk or motherboard has a hardware problem (or your OS has a bug), in which case your data might already be corrupt before you get the error
18:35:36 <wob_jonas> basically, you handle those errors just like you'd handle a crash of the computer.
18:38:03 <wob_jonas> mroman: I recommend reading https://sqlite.org/atomiccommit.html and https://sqlite.org/wal.html for how sqlite3 implements atomicity, it's more detailed and more correct than what I told you.
18:44:01 <pikhq> wob_jonas: Ah, right, of *course* you could just add journaling or similar to FAT.
18:44:29 <pikhq> And yes, I'm aware FAT has other problems.
18:44:43 <pikhq> It's a filesystem which is only interesting because it's so ubiquitously supported, after all.
18:45:16 <wob_jonas> Right, many digital cameras will only write photos on FAT, and similarly some mobile phones that take pictures.
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18:45:52 <pikhq> And it's the only filesystem UEFI guarantees will be supported.
18:47:40 <wob_jonas> The problem with FAT that annoys me the most is that it's really hard to figure out a compatible extension to support mtimes past its unepoch in year 2107, because the windows extensions have consumed all bytes in the directory entry structure.
18:47:56 <wob_jonas> pikhq: ah right, I didn't even think of that
18:48:21 <wob_jonas> mind you, I use FAT as a boot partition for grub-legacy, but only for historical reasons, I could use ext2 the same way
18:50:02 <pikhq> It's a damned shame MS insists on patent fees for exFAT.
18:50:16 <pikhq> But nooo, gotta make it hard to kill off FAT forever.
18:51:12 <wob_jonas> also, grub-legacy is unmaintained, so I'll have to change away from it to a newer bootloader (such as grub2 or syslinux) the latest when I want it to read from a hard disk that's bigger than 3 terabytes
18:52:14 <wob_jonas> mind you, that's because the new partition table design is stupid, and doesn't support using it together with the legacy partition table, so on a hard disk larger than 2 terabytes, you can't have a legacy partition table at all, not even one that only identifies the partitions before the 2GB barrier
18:52:22 <mroman_> what's with these numbers in loader(8) and vgex(4) and all that
18:52:24 <wob_jonas> but there's not much I can do about that unless I want to write my own bootloader
18:53:39 <wob_jonas> and I think I have a choice between at least three bootloaders to switch to, so it won't be too bad
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18:54:02 <pikhq> I also have to wonder if it's even possible to implement exFAT without using the patents.
18:54:24 <pikhq> I mean, it's not easy to even tell, since the filesystem isn't officially documented anywhere.
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18:55:34 <pikhq> If it is possible, I expect it'd be a massive project to find out.
18:55:40 <pikhq> (and MS would probably sue anyways)
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18:55:58 <wob_jonas> mroman: the numbers are manpage categories. you can use the command man 2 write to display the write(2) manpage, and its *roff source is stored in a directory called write2. the parenthesis syntax is shown only in the formatted manpages.
18:56:23 <wob_jonas> mroman: the numeric categories have a conventional meaning, which is sometimes explained in the intro($number) manpage:
18:57:08 <wob_jonas> namely 1 is command-line programs, 2 is system calls, 3 is library functions (libc and other libraries), 8 is command-line programs that normally only a system administrators run,
18:57:16 <mroman_> I write software everyday and I have no clue about whether I'm violating a patent or not.
18:57:25 <wob_jonas> https://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/ gives the short version after each number
18:57:31 <mroman_> I don't know how anybody knows.
18:57:42 <mroman_> granted, not sure if there are even software patents in the EU
18:57:51 <mroman_> but I have no idea how devs in the US do this.
18:58:07 <wob_jonas> the categorization is really old, from ancient unix, it's still used basically because there are command-line programs with the same name as system calls or library functions
18:58:16 <mroman_> probably you just write and hope you don't get sued or at least if you get sued it doesn't cost you your personal finances
18:58:42 <wob_jonas> mroman: man man also explains this
18:59:07 <wob_jonas> there's also a few other nonstandard categories, including (3p) and (n)
19:00:41 <pikhq> mroman_: Usually, you just either straight-up ignore it, or you just avoid patents that you know sue-happy companies will try to enforce.
19:01:38 <mroman_> yeah but how do you know patents even exist
19:01:50 <mroman_> you'd have to know each and every patent
19:02:58 <wob_jonas> I think you just hope that whatever book or article you read about whatever thing the patent covers mentions that there's a patent, or you notice because there are alternatives who specifically say they're created to avoid a patent.
19:05:01 <wob_jonas> In particular, the GIF format was patented but that patent expired, and before it expired there used to be a lot of webpages explaining why you shouldn't use GIF, then there's some other old compression format that was patented but I don't recall the details, and the MP3 sound format and some video formats are still patented.
19:05:01 <wob_jonas> So some MP3 encoders usually explain this in their documentation.
19:05:09 <pikhq> Honestly? It's kinda a minefield.
19:05:15 <pikhq> MP3, BTW, is no longer patented.
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19:06:16 <pikhq> Looks like MPEG-2 *just* expired?
19:06:19 <wob_jonas> But some patents are deliberately kept half-secret (as in, it's technically public but there are so many patents you won't find it unless you pay a patent lawyer), whose owner is waiting until he can sue some large fish. IIRC those were called submarine patent.
19:06:58 <wob_jonas> And of course ther are a lot of patents that should be invalid because there's prior art, but their owner hopes that people will pay up instead of paying for a lawyer to prove that the patent is invalid.
19:07:15 <wob_jonas> The two strategies can be combined.
19:07:48 <wob_jonas> pikhq: it is? doesn't matter much anymore, I think, because I recently bricked my old mobile phone which would only play MP3 and WAV.
19:09:44 <pikhq> Yeah, MP3 patents have finally expired.
19:09:53 <pikhq> Just in time to be kinda irrelevant!
19:10:24 <wob_jonas> but I think some video formats are still patented and used, although they also have free alternatives
19:10:46 <pikhq> H.264 is patented, H.265 is patented...
19:11:06 <pikhq> AV-1 is patented, just with royalty-free licensing...
19:11:25 <wob_jonas> what? isn't h264 a patent-free one?
19:11:48 <pikhq> Oh, very very much no.
19:12:43 <pikhq> It's a fucking massive patent pool.
19:13:01 <wob_jonas> wait, I should be able to just look thisd up
19:13:09 <pikhq> Because it was designed in a process which encouraged like 50 different companies to submit everything they had a patent on to the design.
19:13:46 <pikhq> http://www.mpegla.com/main/programs/AVC/Documents/avc-att1.pdf This 115 page document is the list of patents MPEG-LA can license that they believe are applicable to H.264.
19:16:56 <pikhq> It was intentionally designed to have as many patents as possible.
19:18:15 <alercah> mroman_: you can search patents
19:18:23 <alercah> mroman_: but the wisdom is that it's better *not* to
19:18:57 <wob_jonas> what else is still patented that I should know about? are some of the algorithms for solving the Rubik's cube patented?
19:18:59 <alercah> because in the USA, knowingly infringing carries much stiffer penalties
19:19:19 <alercah> so it's better to just not look, and hope, than to look, think you're good, and lose the suit
19:19:49 <pikhq> Software patents are basically a tax on operation, collected by a bunch of rent-seeking bastards.
19:23:22 <wob_jonas> For the purpose of D&D 3.5 alignment, does it count as an Evil act to patent a file format or other protocol and then spread a lot of devices or software that use it?
19:24:06 <wob_jonas> Would a Paladin fall and lose their powers if they even knowingly worked for a company that does that?
19:24:14 <pikhq> Lawful Evil in particular, IMO.
19:25:28 <wob_jonas> Also, now I'm scared. Are there trained spies who watch me on the tram or metro and look at what method I use for the rubik's cube, ready to call the police if I use a patented method?
19:26:29 <wob_jonas> Or look at youtube videos of solving the rubik's cube, especially in high-ranked speedcubing competitions?
19:26:29 <wob_jonas> Was there yet a scandal when someone would win a speedcubing competition after buying a patent license?
19:27:54 <wob_jonas> Can I even do (M U' M2 U' M2 U' M U2 M2 U) to permute four last layer edges without infringing on a patent? That movement sequence seems short enough that anyone with a computer can discover it easily, so it probably can't be patented. But a whole method, some of those are creative enough that they could be patented.
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19:40:30 <wob_jonas> mroman_: those were good questions, do you have any more before I go to bed?
19:41:09 <wob_jonas> I mean, I can logread tomorrow, but still
19:41:55 <Fogity> So, I am finally pretty much set to make a 1.0.0 relese of my emoji language. But I am still a bit undecided on license.
19:42:35 <Fogity> Is there any reason not to use MIT?
19:43:03 <wob_jonas> Fogity: if you're asking about a copyright license of the interpreter, I don't know a perfect one, but as far as I can tell, the boost license would be the most sympathetic one except for one thing:
19:44:48 <wob_jonas> the license doesn't explicitly say that the copyright license rights it grants are worldwide and lasts forever (or as long as the copyright protection lasts), and the copyright law of Hungary says that those should be explicit or else they're interpreted narrowly.
19:45:28 <wob_jonas> So if you distribute something under the boost license, then IANAL but you could sue me if I distribute it for too many decades or distribute it outside of Hungary.
19:46:13 <wob_jonas> This sort of made sense back when copyright was used for books and television series and films, but not much for software.
19:46:38 <wob_jonas> It's not very likely that such an exploit would work though, so I still recommend the boost license for software.
19:46:57 <Fogity> It looks a lot like the MIT license to me, what is the difference?
19:48:10 <wob_jonas> Fogity: the difference is that it allows you to distribute compiled binaries without the license, but doesn't allow that for source code or other form.
19:49:06 <wob_jonas> Read the last three lines of the middle paragraph
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19:53:44 <wob_jonas> This exception was added because there are tons of free software licences similar to the MIT, all alike, so some bigger software packages have to include a long file that lists multiple such license, each applying to some code they used, and reproducing that in a final binary or installer would be inconvenient,
19:54:15 <wob_jonas> so with the boost license, you can at least omit that one from the binary (eg. the installer "I accept the license" dialog box) and reproduce it only in the source code.
19:54:59 <wob_jonas> And binaries often contain more licenses than source code packages because you distribute multiple libraries together in binary, but often distribute them in separate packages for source code
19:55:33 <wob_jonas> Now of course, for a toy esolang, it's likely that none of this matters and nobody will care about your license, but you asked about it.
19:56:09 <wob_jonas> Fogity: You could also ask ais523, he knows a bit more details about software licenses than me, but that might cause you to miss the deadline because he's rarely on irc.
19:58:06 <Fogity> Yeah, I appreciate the info. But as you say, it doesn't matter that much so I'll just add MIT as that is just some button clicks on gitlab. :P
19:59:41 <Fogity> But I will consider it for any more useful project. And I can just change it later anyway, for this.
20:00:41 <wob_jonas> Right, but if you change the license, please keep the original license too as an alternative.
20:01:43 <Fogity> Well, there is always the git history
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21:06:25 <Fogity> Yay, I got the language out in time. Now I should probably make a wiki-page for it.
21:06:56 <Fogity> Anyway, here is the repo if anyone is curious: https://gitlab.com/fogity/squared-cool
21:12:40 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Fogity * New user account
21:20:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56785&oldid=56704 * Fogity * (+197) /* Introductions */
21:23:20 <Fogity> Should I use the proper name of the language (🆒) for the page title or should it be ascii characters?
21:27:57 <Fogity> Seems like non-ascii characters are fine.
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22:17:02 <esowiki> [[Borsch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56786&oldid=54703 * Fogity * (+0) Fixed erroneous category name.
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22:48:41 <lambdabot> ENVA 172220Z VRB02KT CAVOK 19/16 Q1015 RMK WIND 670FT 18006KT
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23:14:28 <esowiki> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56787 * Fogity * (+3257) Created page with " is an [[esoteric programming language]] currently developed by [[User:Fogity]]. It is a fairly straight forward functional language with the caveat that the source code,..."
23:18:42 <XorSwap> here's the seed of an idea for you all: how could a language be designed so that it forces the programmer to use concurrency?
23:19:24 <XorSwap> obviously you could do that by just saying that every line runs at once or something, but could you do it in a way that the interpreter itself doesn't enforce?
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23:31:36 <esowiki> [[Squared cool]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56788 * Fogity * (+18) This is the unicode name for the emoji and an alternate name for the language .
23:37:02 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56789&oldid=56650 * Fogity * (+11) Added .
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02:51:24 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56828&oldid=56827 * Oerjan * (+54) /* Survey */ grm and only two symbols essential
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08:52:22 <mniip> I think I implemented pattern matching but there's now a bug :(
08:54:25 <mniip> somehow one of the closures gets corrupted
09:20:57 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56841&oldid=56823 * A * (+41)
09:21:22 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56842&oldid=56841 * A * (+28)
09:27:18 <esowiki> [[Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56843&oldid=32458 * A * (+132)
09:27:27 <esowiki> [[Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56844&oldid=56843 * A * (+0) /* COmputational Class */
09:30:01 <esowiki> [[Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56845&oldid=56844 * A * (+76) Last but not least, check that
09:30:40 <esowiki> [[Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56846&oldid=56845 * A * (-46)
09:31:19 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56847&oldid=56842 * A * (+69)
09:33:47 <mniip> I think I found the cause
09:34:20 <Taneb> (I am genuinely interested but not very insightful)
09:37:16 <mniip> when executing a data constructor pattern match I forgot to focus on the fields of the closure I am scrutinizing
09:39:11 <mniip> sadly that alone didn't fix it
09:53:52 <mniip> I enter the scrutinee
09:54:18 <mniip> but my calling convention doesn't include the closure returning itself from its entry point
09:54:36 <mniip> and so I lost the value I was scrutinizing
09:56:38 <int-e> mniip: what formalism or language is it you're implementing, and what's your implementation language?
09:57:06 <mniip> a haskell compiler that outputs assembly
09:59:23 <int-e> push/enter, g-machine, mmm. Oh it's been a while.
10:01:04 <mniip> int-e, mind, I decided to implement it "without looking"
10:01:17 <mniip> i.e see how much stuff I can come up with without copyinh
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10:05:13 <mniip> and thus I compiled a first hello world
10:05:32 <mniip> it looks like this http://tcpst.net/pk7v
10:05:35 <HackEso> ``ci`r`.!`.l`.a`.i`.v`.i`.r`.t`. `.t`.s`.e`.'`.c`. `.,`.a`.d`.b`.m`.a`.l`.n`.U`ci
10:07:51 <int-e> mniip: are those boxed ints?
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10:22:08 <mniip> at least it's easy to add primops!
10:22:10 <mniip> BINARY_FN(addInt)(struct Closure *a, struct Closure *b) { return make_int_closure(unpack_int_closure(a) + unpack_int_closure(b)); }
10:48:45 <mniip> *(clos->data) = value;
10:48:57 <mniip> should be *(size_t *)clos->data = value;
10:49:45 <int-e> (somehow irssi displays these as inverted I-s)
11:04:57 <mniip> boom, the list of prime numbers http://tcpst.net/lgbv
11:10:36 <mniip> my thing is even slightly better than GHC in some aspect!
11:10:40 <mniip> I can do this: http://tcpst.net/4a4g.png
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11:38:23 <int-e> mniip: yeah ghc a) messes up the stack and b) doesn't have an actual control stack because it does a CPS transform so all calls become tail calls.
11:38:53 <mniip> this isn't a call stack either mind
11:39:02 <mniip> foldr doesn't call takeWhile
11:39:12 <int-e> I wrote "control stack"? :P
11:40:22 <int-e> I expect it's still a call stack of sorts... but a dynamic one imposed by lazy evaluation rather than a static one (as written in the source code)
11:51:20 <mniip> as if the GHC runtime doesn't have an analogue?
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14:08:47 <wob_jonas> mniip: can you parse type annotations?
14:09:57 <mniip> there's no typechecker yet
14:10:09 <mniip> also there's lot of technical debt
14:10:35 <wob_jonas> so if you use incorrect types, your program might just do undefined behavior?
14:10:56 <mniip> it will usually complain
14:11:11 <mniip> "attempt to apply a constructor"
14:11:30 <mniip> but yeah it might segfualt
14:11:50 <mniip> if you pattern match a lambda against a datatype that has a non-nullary constructor at position zero
14:13:50 <wob_jonas> I was wondering if you could try to compile http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/Bin.hs with this. You'd not only have to remove type annotations, but also remove the instances, and replace the fac and the main functions to call the underlying non-generic functions instead of the methods
14:21:58 <wob_jonas> Luckily it doesn't even use the built-in list type
14:41:12 <wob_jonas> The fac function really cheats by using the haskell prelude deeply.
14:42:44 <wob_jonas> I'm calling product, which has to be changed to foldSomething mulBin; and I'm calling my own enumFromTo :: BinInteger -> BinInteger -> BinInteger method, which calls takeWhile and iterate.
14:43:06 <wob_jonas> Still, it should be possible to write those if you know a bit of haskell
14:43:37 <wob_jonas> and then the main function calls print, which you could change to (putStrLn . showBin) I think
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15:15:01 <mniip> wob_jonas, to add classes I'd need a typechecker
15:15:23 <wob_jonas> mniip: I said you should remove classes and instances from that code
15:15:24 <mniip> to do inference and term elaboration
15:15:47 <wob_jonas> they're not really needed, they're just an afterthought so that I can make the joke end with "fac n = product [1..n]"
15:15:50 <mniip> my compiler doesn't use any StateT
15:16:24 <wob_jonas> which is a line from that Evolution of a Haskell Programmer joke, only it means a very different thing here because it uses a different type
15:16:41 <wob_jonas> but you don't need any of the instances or anything, or the BinInteger type
15:16:49 <mniip> product . enumFromTo 1
15:17:10 <mniip> I only like code that is pointless
15:18:32 <wob_jonas> mniip: yes, but look at the end of the joke in https://www.willamette.edu/~fruehr/haskell/evolution.html , above the explanations (search for "Tenured Professor"
15:18:43 <mniip> yeah I've seen that page
15:18:56 <wob_jonas> ). it literally says "fac n = product [1..n]" which is the line I wanted to reuse
15:20:44 <mniip> I am the proud author of https://github.com/AbstractBeliefs/BadBuzz/blob/master/Haskell/mniip.hs
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15:21:12 <Taneb> mniip: oh god, he got you writing them too
15:21:35 <wob_jonas> just compute with the unwrapped Bin class, which isn't an instance of anything (I did it this way so as to not accidentally an instance functino), write product as whatever fold function it should be, calling mulBin
15:22:29 <wob_jonas> then implement iterate and takeWhile from the prelude, and do whatever that enumFromTo method does but on unwrapped Bin stuff
15:22:39 <mniip> I have boxed integers
15:23:50 <Taneb> (I'm fond of my reasonable-looking-but-cubic-time badbuzz)
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15:23:55 <wob_jonas> mniip: but this is a nontrivial code that would test lazy function calls and constructors and pattern matching nicely
15:23:55 <wob_jonas> it does like a million calls until it finishes
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15:26:07 <wob_jonas> no wait, it must be much less than that since it's not unary but binary. probably only a few thousand calls
15:28:29 <mniip> I really should consider infix operators
15:28:35 <mniip> and equation parsing
15:29:05 <wob_jonas> mniip: you don't need infix operators to run my code
15:29:23 <wob_jonas> what do you mean by equation parsing? pattern matching in the function head?
15:29:42 <wob_jonas> do you have let expressions yet? where clauses?
15:29:59 <wob_jonas> you should probably start with let expressions
15:30:05 <mniip> I have abstractions that can work as nonrecursive lets
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15:56:53 <int-e> ah, today's xkcd is online, and it's good
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18:23:39 <esowiki> [[Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56848&oldid=56846 * Ais523 * (-162) rv: this doesn't prove BF-equivalence because BF relies on the existence of nested loops for its TCness
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22:11:54 <esowiki> [[RISBF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56849&oldid=40838 * BMO * (+358)
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00:16:51 <esowiki> [[Stupid]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56850&oldid=56558 * Oerjan * (-27) rm nonexistent category
00:17:18 <esowiki> [[Stop]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56851&oldid=56564 * Oerjan * (-27) rm nonexistent category
00:19:32 <esowiki> [[EsoScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56852&oldid=56822 * Oerjan * (-4) fix category
00:19:50 <esowiki> [[Bit Stupid]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56853&oldid=56562 * Oerjan * (-27) rm nonexistent category
00:20:29 <esowiki> [[Array Changer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56854&oldid=56244 * Oerjan * (-27) fix categories
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02:40:09 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56855&oldid=56847 * A * (-69)
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02:49:27 <esowiki> [[Telegram]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56856&oldid=26665 * A * (+578) Unsure...
02:50:04 <esowiki> [[Telegram]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56857&oldid=56856 * A * (+7) Aw man...too messy!
02:53:23 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56858&oldid=56855 * A * (+15)
03:05:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Logic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56859 * A * (+162) Created page with "==Actually more shorter CAT program== I-| &-O 1-| That is a lot shorter. I think the CAT program in the page is user-unfriendly.--[[User:A]]11:04 19 Jul.2018"
03:05:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56860&oldid=56859 * A * (-5) Bad grammar.
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05:30:07 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56861&oldid=56721 * A * (+59)
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10:13:30 <esowiki> [[Far]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56862&oldid=56530 * GibsonGeorge * (+60)
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13:06:08 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56863&oldid=56624 * Digital Hunter * (+41) /* S */
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18:12:06 <esowiki> [[User:TuxCrafting]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56864&oldid=48916 * TuxCrafting * (+27)
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18:31:53 <Lean1> yes they arid but?
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19:23:52 <HackEso> olist 1128: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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19:39:43 <esowiki> [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56865&oldid=56784 * DMC * (-78)
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21:18:45 <subleq> Are there any formal languages that do not always halt, but have a decideable halting problem?
21:19:12 <ais523> it's fairly easy to create one
21:19:27 <ais523> but finite state automata with halt states are the most obvious example
21:19:39 <ais523> any infinite loop in those is detectable, so you can just run them until they halt or enter an infinite loop
21:20:17 <ais523> I think even with PDAs, all infinite loops are detectable, but I'm less sure on that
21:28:49 <subleq> you'll see the same state with the same stack iff it doesn't terminate i think
21:29:23 <ais523> not necessarily the same, but the stack will form a repeating pattern
21:29:40 <ais523> so you can see that the loop only looks at, say, the top 10 stack elements before repeating
21:29:54 <ais523> and after that point the top 10 elements are the same, even if they might be at a different position on the stack
21:32:40 <subleq> are there any programming languages equivalent to a PDA?
21:33:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56866&oldid=56573 * Ais523 * (+35) /* Computational class */ add the PDA category to the list; we've been using it for years
21:33:46 <ais523> here: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Push-down_automata
21:33:54 <ais523> Befunge-93 is probably the best known
21:34:56 <esowiki> [[Funge-98]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56867&oldid=53358 * Ais523 * (-33) not a PDA; the existence of the stack stack (together with a swap instruction) gives it more storage than that
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21:37:14 <subleq> are you aware of any restrictions on lambda calculus that could work?
21:38:19 <ais523> it's a bit complex, but "all arguments to a recursive or indirectly recursive call must be constants" works
21:38:30 <subleq> i guess just adding a loop primative
21:38:34 <ais523> or https://esolangs.org/wiki/Splinter is pretty similar
21:38:42 <subleq> to a strongly normalizing lambda calculus would work
21:39:14 <ais523> typed lambda calculus + tail-recursion (the closest lambda calculus equivalent to a while loop) is probably TC, I'm not 100% sure on that though
21:47:53 <subleq> i mean something like this https://github.com/edwinb/TypeDD-Samples/blob/master/Chapter11/RunIO.idr
21:50:33 <ais523> actually I'm not certain that any given type in typed lambda calculus has infinitely many functions of that type…
21:52:24 <ais523> like, if there are only finitely many functions of each type
21:52:39 <ais523> then typed lambda calculus + tail-recursion would be a finite state machine, as there's a limited amount of state in the system
21:54:53 <subleq> come to think of it, i'm not sure this is an interesting question, unless decidable halting languages are in a different class than always halting
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21:57:10 <ais523> well, you can normally define "provably not halting" as a form of halting all of its own
21:57:30 <ais523> because if you can prove it doesn't halt, now you know the eventual fate of the program
21:57:42 <ais523> from that point of view, decidably-halting and always-halting aren't very different
22:05:45 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56868&oldid=56787 * Fogity * (-1300) Now refers to the official documentation instead of trying to summarise the language details.
22:13:30 <int-e> subleq: https://mathoverflow.net/questions/261934/is-simply-typed-lambda-calculus-with-fixed-point-combinator-turing-complete (first answer) is a fun one.
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22:17:22 <subleq> hmm, that paper is not publically available
22:17:26 <ais523> subleq: oh yes, it's obviously TC if you add integers + basic operations on them (like increment, decrement, zero-test)
22:17:55 <subleq> i don't get it, why aren't church numerals equivalent to primitive integers?
22:18:11 <ais523> subleq: the types get increasingly complex as the numbers get larger
22:18:27 <ais523> so they work fine in untyped lambda calculus, but in typed lambda calculus, any given type has a maximum Church number it can handle
22:18:51 <ais523> that is, unless you constrain the church numerals to acting on functions of a particular simplified type, but then you can't combine them with each other
22:21:27 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if this invalidates the TCness proof for (=); Haskell
22:21:37 <ais523> or if those characters are enough for TCness some other way
22:23:06 <int-e> > let (===)==(====)=(===) in 0==3
22:24:16 <subleq> so stlc with fix is not turing complete, but seemingly system f with fix is
22:25:42 <int-e> Yeah, System F has proper Church numerals. (of type forall a. (a -> a) -> a -> a)
22:26:35 <ais523> right, I was just coming to that conclusion myself, Haskell isn't actually simply typed so it may work by using polymorphism
22:27:15 <ais523> > let two : (x -> x) -> (x -> x) = \ a b -> a (a b) in two (+1) 0
22:27:16 <int-e> yeah but it's not System F, just Hindley-Milner... so (as far as I'm concerned) it needs some thought.
22:27:17 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:20: error: parse error on input ‘->’
22:27:28 <ais523> > let two : (x -> x) -> (x -> x) = \ a b => a (a b) in two (+1) 0
22:27:29 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:20: error: parse error on input ‘->’
22:27:40 <ais523> > let two : ((x -> x) -> (x -> x)) = \ a b -> a (a b) in two (+1) 0
22:27:42 <lambdabot> Pattern syntax in expression context: x -> x
22:27:48 <ais523> > let two :: ((x -> x) -> (x -> x)) = \ a b -> a (a b) in two (+1) 0
22:27:50 <lambdabot> • You cannot bind scoped type variable ‘x’
22:28:00 <ais523> I don't actually know Haskell syntax
22:28:08 <ais523> also I thought :: was lists
22:28:18 <lambdabot> • Expecting one more argument to ‘[]’
22:28:18 <lambdabot> Expected a type, but ‘[]’ has kind ‘* -> *’
22:28:36 <ais523> > let two :: (forall x. (x -> x) -> (x -> x)) = \ a b -> a (a b) in two (+1) 0
22:28:38 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘forall x1. (x1 -> x1) -> x1 -> x1’
22:28:38 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘(t0 -> t0) -> t0 -> t0’
22:28:51 <int-e> > join(.)(join(.))succ 0
22:29:25 <ais523> > let two a b :: ((x -> x) -> (x -> x)) = a (a b) in two (+1) 0
22:29:26 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: error: Parse error in pattern: two
22:29:41 <ais523> > let (two :: ((x -> x) -> (x -> x))) a b = a (a b) in two (+1) 0
22:29:43 <lambdabot> Parse error in pattern: (two :: ((x -> x) -> (x -> x)))
22:30:09 <ais523> > let two a b = a (a b) in two (+1) 0
22:30:18 <ais523> it works just fine without the type annotation :-P
22:30:41 <int-e> > let two :: (x -> x) -> x -> x; two = \f x. f (f x) in two two succ 0
22:30:43 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:42: error: parse error on input ‘.’
22:30:49 <int-e> > let two :: (x -> x) -> x -> x; two = \f x -> f (f x) in two two succ 0
22:30:56 <int-e> > let two :: (x -> x) -> x -> x; two = \f x -> f (f x) in two two two succ 0
22:31:24 <subleq> you don't need the annotation
22:31:35 <int-e> > let two = (\f x -> f (f x)) :: (x -> x) -> x -> x in two two two succ 0
22:32:01 <int-e> I wonder whether there was a reason for disabling the pattern type signatures though... I forgot.
22:32:26 <ais523> > let two :: (x -> x) -> x -> x; two = \f x -> f (f x) in let three :: (x -> x) -> x -> x; three = \f x -> f (f (f x)) in let eight :: (x -> x) -> x -> x; eight = two three in eight (+1) 0
22:32:35 <ais523> bleh, got the arguments backwards
22:32:41 <ais523> > let two :: (x -> x) -> x -> x; two = \f x -> f (f x) in let three :: (x -> x) -> x -> x; three = \f x -> f (f (f x)) in let eight :: (x -> x) -> x -> x; eight = three two in eight (+1) 0
22:32:58 <ais523> that's what I was checking for, if we could do arithmetic and yet still have the same types
22:33:01 <int-e> 8 == 9 for large values of 8
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22:33:15 <int-e> ais523: you can but only on constants, I think
22:33:30 <int-e> > let f two = two two in f (\f x -> f (f x)) succ 0
22:33:33 <lambdabot> • Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t ~ t -> t1
22:33:33 <lambdabot> • In the first argument of ‘two’, namely ‘two’
22:33:34 <ais523> I should have gone with 16, 2⁴ = 4² so it wouldn't matter if I had it backwards
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22:34:29 <int-e> > let f :: (forall x. (x -> x) -> x -> x) -> (x -> x) -> x -> x; f two = two two in f (\f x -> f (f x)) succ 0
22:34:54 <ais523> right, seems like you need the explicit type annotation
22:35:05 <ais523> which means that the subset of Haskell that uses only ( = ) ; probably isn't TC after all
22:35:37 <ais523> it's probably TC if you add :
22:35:38 <int-e> (it works with this higher order type, but that can't be written in the (=); fragment, and it's not Haskell 2010
22:36:22 <ais523> something I learned while doing literature review for my PhD thesis is that it's been proven that type inference for system F is impossible in general
22:36:32 <ais523> which is why languages in practice need the annotations
22:37:02 <subleq> what can system f do that hindley milner can't?
22:37:26 <int-e> subleq: it has polymorphic arguments
22:37:45 <ais523> subleq: use the same argument twice (or more) with a different type for each use
22:38:03 <ais523> hindley-milner lets you use the same argument multiple times in a lambda but it has to have the same type with each use
22:38:34 <int-e> > let f :: (forall x. x -> x) -> ((), Bool); f g = (g (), g True) in f id
22:38:51 <int-e> > let f g = (g (), g True) in f id
22:38:53 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘()’ with actual type ‘Bool’
22:38:53 <lambdabot> • In the first argument of ‘g’, namely ‘True’
22:39:02 <ais523> this basic idea (with respect to lambda calculi in general, not hindley-milner in particular) is key to the main result of my thesis, which invalidated several years' worth of work in a number of different research projects (including my own)
22:39:08 <ais523> by showing that what they were aiming for was impossible :_D
22:39:23 <int-e> (that's one of the simplest examples of the difference)
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23:07:55 <zzo38> I have received the new issue of 2600 today.
23:16:08 <izabera> 1. going to bed and gettting some healthy sleep
23:16:19 <izabera> 2. ordering a pizza and staying up late
23:16:40 <izabera> also i'm on a no carb diet so the pizza is like super taboo
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03:10:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Smurf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56869&oldid=50544 * A * (+105) /* Smurf instruction minimalisation */
03:11:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Smurf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56870&oldid=56869 * A * (+36) /* Smurf instruction minimalisation */
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03:30:36 <esowiki> [[Simple Smurf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56871&oldid=56839 * A * (-430)
03:33:31 <esowiki> [[Simple Smurf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56872&oldid=56871 * A * (+107)
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03:36:39 <esowiki> [[Simple Smurf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56873&oldid=56872 * A * (+232)
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03:43:32 <esowiki> [[Simple Smurf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56874&oldid=56873 * A * (-60)
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07:45:00 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56875&oldid=56861 * Rdebath * (+270) /* Big width loops */
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08:08:53 <zzo38> A variant of the BackFlip arrows: instead of pointing where you came from, it now points to the direction you were initially moving in when you hit it. Also add a symbol that always rebounds (but there are no flipping or fixed mirrors). This is the variant I implemented in ZZT. (The variant arrows are stat waters, and the symbol that always rebounds is a ricochet.)
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09:56:33 <mniip> 1532039782 [01:36:22] <ais523> something I learned while doing literature review for my PhD thesis is that it's been proven that type inference for system F is impossible in general
09:56:48 <mniip> but is constraint solving in presence of QuantifiedConstraints possible?
09:58:27 <mniip> I have serious doubts about that
09:58:39 <mniip> it looks waaay too close to intuitionistic FOL
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13:57:56 -!- oerjan has set topic: Welcome to the international tarpit for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
13:59:05 <oerjan> <Lean1> Why lemons? <-- they're limes actually hth
14:03:28 <int-e> `learn The password of the month will be short-lived.
14:03:30 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month will be short-lived.
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14:32:28 <HackEso> 11584:2018-07-20 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month will be short-lived. \ 11570:2018-06-03 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is illegal in six US states and Saudi Arabia \ 11544:2018-05-05 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is <redacted>. \ 11509:2018-04-14 <oerjän> slwd password//s,.$,, \ 11508:2018-04-14 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is way too late to fool anyone. \ 11444:2018-03-07 <oerjän> learn The password of
14:37:54 <esowiki> [[Log]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56876 * A * (+365) Created page with "'''Logic''' by [[User:A]] is an extremely simple esolang based on [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOR_logic NOR logic]. ==Syntax== The only available commands are: ! That is N..."
14:38:14 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56877&oldid=56876 * A * (+12)
14:38:40 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56878&oldid=56877 * A * (+4)
14:39:35 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56879&oldid=56878 * A * (+28)
14:53:15 <oerjan> zzo38: that backflip variant wouldn't be reversible
15:24:29 <int-e> https://irclog.perlgeek.de/ :/
15:28:21 <oerjan> next predicted shutdown: wayback hth
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17:01:25 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, I thought it might be not reversible, but the specific pattern I tried eventually returns to its initial state.
17:01:56 <zzo38> (Anyways I wasn't concerned if it is reversible or not, when doing it; it is just something I did with ZZT)
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19:29:03 <shachaf> oerjan: i guess this was the last olist
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19:29:40 <wob_jonas> shachaf: no, there's still one and a half book's worth left
19:30:40 <shachaf> the adventures of durkon as he destroys the world
19:31:23 <shachaf> I guess that lich is still around. What happened with that?
19:31:33 <shachaf> Were those folks still looking through the doors?
19:35:25 <wob_jonas> yes, they're getting some experience points and treasure
19:36:47 <wob_jonas> and some people on the forum think that because of http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html , the Gate is actually in Kragor's statue, not anywhere in the holes
19:37:28 <wob_jonas> because Kragor died at the rift, and why else would they make a statue for a man whose story they want everyone to forget
19:39:50 <wob_jonas> http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html shows where Kragor's statue is located in relation to Serini's dungeon, in case you forgot
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21:15:03 <\oren\_> https://imgur.com/a/HkBv3Gk
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00:30:50 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: i guess this was the last olist <-- that would be a bit narratively inelegant.
00:31:12 <shachaf> did the happy ending prophecy come true already with that one comic?
00:31:46 <shachaf> i guess belkar still needs to draw his last breath
00:31:54 <shachaf> which given how things are going will probably be p. soon
00:32:15 <oerjan> hm probably not. if only because otherwise, the oracle wouldn't have added "at least for you".
00:32:37 <oerjan> after all, several others got happy endings in the illusion.
00:33:04 <oerjan> also, i totally also thought of that kragor's statue thing.
00:33:20 <shachaf> I guess it's implied that some other members of the olist of the stick don't get happy endings.
00:33:44 <oerjan> even belkar got one then.
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01:43:40 <Sgeo_> Addicted to Raymond Chen's The Old New Thing blog
01:44:40 <Sgeo_> https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/
02:03:32 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56880&oldid=56879 * A * (+36)
02:10:53 <esowiki> [[FerNORo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56881 * A * (+5147) Created page with "{{lowercase}} '''ferNANDo''' is an esoteric programming language by [[User:A]]. It's based on [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOR_logic NOR-logic] and uses no other syntax-elem..."
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03:19:56 <esowiki> [[FerNORo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56882&oldid=56881 * A * (-370) /* Other logic gates */
03:20:09 <esowiki> [[FerNORo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56883&oldid=56882 * A * (-916) /* Arithmetic circuits */
03:21:52 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56884&oldid=56880 * A * (-28)
03:24:59 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56885&oldid=56884 * A * (+71) /* Example(XOR) */
03:27:23 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56886&oldid=56885 * A * (+51)
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03:34:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Smurf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56887&oldid=56870 * A * (+93) ^_-^ That is okay!!!
03:40:54 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56888&oldid=56886 * A * (+173)
03:45:17 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56889&oldid=56888 * A * (+139) /* NOT */
03:52:32 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56890&oldid=56889 * A * (-34)
03:54:13 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56891&oldid=56890 * A * (+34) /* Syntax */
03:54:25 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56892&oldid=56891 * A * (-39) /* See Also */
03:57:12 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56893&oldid=56892 * A * (+79) /* See Also */
04:04:47 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56894&oldid=56588 * A * (+317) /* Simplification */
04:08:49 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56895&oldid=56894 * A * (+19) Mispelled word.
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04:20:45 <esowiki> [[Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56896&oldid=56848 * Oerjan * (+2831) Another try
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04:28:02 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56897&oldid=56893 * A * (+12) /* NOT */
04:31:18 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56898&oldid=56897 * A * (-53)
04:31:45 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56899&oldid=56898 * A * (+27)
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04:39:52 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56900&oldid=56899 * A * (+6) /* Syntax */
04:40:09 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56901&oldid=56900 * A * (+20) /* Syntax */
04:40:28 <zzo38> Have you ever heard of any mahjong variant where kan switches the direction of play?
04:43:13 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56902&oldid=56901 * A * (+241) /* XOR */
04:43:29 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56903&oldid=56902 * A * (+3) /* XOR */
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04:46:00 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56904&oldid=56903 * A * (+132)
04:46:54 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56905&oldid=56904 * A * (+32) /* XOR */
04:48:56 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56906&oldid=56905 * A * (+165) /* XOR */
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04:55:24 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56907&oldid=56906 * A * (-10) /* See Also */
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05:03:42 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56908&oldid=56907 * A * (-15)
05:04:23 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56909&oldid=56908 * A * (-3) /* See Also */
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05:22:04 <esowiki> [[Log++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56910 * A * (+390) Created page with "It is [[Log]], but with this extension: (.) That is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAND_logic NAND]. Change the operation into the answer after the NAND operation. ==NOT==..."
05:42:08 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56911&oldid=56909 * A * (+20) /* NOT */
05:45:40 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56912&oldid=56911 * A * (+29)
05:46:52 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56913&oldid=56912 * A * (+22)
05:50:11 <esowiki> [[Log++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56914&oldid=56910 * A * (+249)
05:50:27 <esowiki> [[Log++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56915&oldid=56914 * A * (+0)
05:52:35 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56916&oldid=56913 * A * (-58)
06:10:15 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56917&oldid=56916 * A * (+158)
06:17:12 <shachaf> just wait until Asdf hears about all these edits
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06:46:20 <shachaf> fizzie: Any reason stalker mode doesn't have anchors?
06:46:49 <shachaf> Well, I assume the reason is that they make a broken link eventually.
06:47:45 <shachaf> But they could still be useful before then.
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07:10:37 <Aearnus> i'm sending this from within a computer on minecraft
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08:29:34 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56918&oldid=56917 * A * (-552)
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08:53:47 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56919&oldid=56895 * A * (-46) /* Readability */
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09:47:48 <fizzie> @tell shachaf I guess, it's just that the stalker mode already has links to the corresponding non-stalker lines (so that when you paste a link to somebody it's automatically a permalink) so even if it had anchors, you'd have to use them "manually".
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09:49:13 <shachaf> Oh, I didn't notice those were links.
09:49:21 <lambdabot> fizzie said 1m 33s ago: I guess, it's just that the stalker mode already has links to the corresponding non-stalker lines (so that when you paste a link to somebody it's automatically a permalink)
09:49:21 <lambdabot> so even if it had anchors, you'd have to use them "manually".
09:49:52 <fizzie> (It's kind of late in where I'd guess you are, that's why the @tell.)
09:50:00 <fizzie> Oh, I'm coming to MTV again next month.
09:50:18 <shachaf> I always use anchors "manually".
09:50:31 <shachaf> I guess it should've occurred to me that there'd be a matching link.
09:51:17 <shachaf> Also I wish you could make an anchor to something without an explicit id attribute in the HTML because people often don't put them in.
09:52:32 <fizzie> MTV is short for "mainostelevisio", lit. "advertisement TV", a Finnish commercial ad-funded TV channel.
09:52:43 <fizzie> Although that's not where I'm going.
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11:23:55 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56920&oldid=56918 * A * (-14)
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11:28:16 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56921&oldid=56920 * A * (-7)
11:28:53 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56922&oldid=56921 * A * (+14)
11:32:00 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56923&oldid=56922 * A * (+0)
11:33:48 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56924&oldid=56923 * A * (+8)
11:33:58 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56925&oldid=56924 * A * (-2)
11:34:32 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56926&oldid=56925 * A * (+2)
11:34:45 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56927&oldid=56926 * A * (+1)
11:35:01 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56928&oldid=56927 * A * (-9)
11:41:16 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56929&oldid=56928 * A * (-65)
12:44:25 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56930&oldid=56929 * A * (-48)
12:46:11 <esowiki> [[Log++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56931&oldid=56915 * A * (-38) /* XNOR */
12:46:59 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56932&oldid=56930 * A * (+33)
12:47:38 <esowiki> [[Log++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56933&oldid=56931 * A * (+31)
12:49:21 <esowiki> [[Log++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56934&oldid=56933 * A * (-10) /* See also */
12:49:33 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56935&oldid=56932 * A * (-10) /* See also */
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14:19:41 <oerjan> `addquote <Aearnus> i'm sending this from within a computer on minecraft
14:19:42 <HackEso> 1325) <Aearnus> i'm sending this from within a computer on minecraft
14:20:06 <oerjan> i think this counts as an actually on-topic quote
14:22:25 <int-e> I found those "Log" messages quite irritiating until I realized that it was a page name.
14:42:40 <zzo38> Yes, sometimes I wanted also an anchor to something without an explicit ID in a HTML document. One thing to do is to add # and stuff onto the URL anyways, even though it doesn't work. Another thing is to tell whoever wrote them to fix it.
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17:38:14 <esowiki> [[Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56936&oldid=56896 * Oerjan * (+2931) Expand 22 register explanation
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18:17:39 <wob_jonas> shachaf: The Giant's words make it clear that Elan's prophecy by the Oracle is about the ending of the story, so it can't come true before: www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479555&p=23237502&viewfull=1#post23237502
18:18:17 <wob_jonas> shachaf: Elan has some fourth-wall-breaking, so he knows when the story's *ending* is.
18:21:47 <wob_jonas> and the Oracle definitely has fourth-wall knowledge too, so he can answer Elan
18:22:46 <zzo38> I have mentioned before a variant of BackFlip with ZZT. I am not so sure it is not reversible. Can't you reverse all of the arrows in the program as well as the direction of the program execution?
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18:44:58 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56937&oldid=56919 * Ais523 * (+228) /* Readability */ too subjective
18:51:52 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * 2n8asm * New user account
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19:36:21 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56938&oldid=56785 * 2n8asm * (+233) /* Introductions */
19:37:12 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * 2n8asm * uploaded "[[File:.png]]"
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19:42:23 <int-e> huh, useless, uncompressed png?
19:43:20 <wob_jonas> int-e: it's not useless. you can use it as a temporary exchange format for lossless images with 16-bit per channel deep rgba that many programs will understand
19:43:54 <int-e> wob_jonas: I mean https://esolangs.org/wiki/File:%E8%89%B9.png
19:44:37 <wob_jonas> maybe it's a program for an esolang that only reads uncompressed pngs?
19:46:02 <int-e> seriously doubt it. it's not even black and white, it has some grey from antialiasing
19:46:35 <int-e> and it's just a rendition of the glyph in the file name, 艹.
19:46:53 <wob_jonas> no, it's a descriptive page name for the image
19:57:48 <zzo38> For a temporary exchange format I prefer farbfeld (and only in pipes, not in files)
19:59:19 <esowiki> [[CFUCK]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56940 * 2n8asm * (+211) CFUCK is a general-purpose programming language.
20:04:26 <esowiki> [[CFUCK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56941&oldid=56940 * 2n8asm * (+193)
20:06:00 <esowiki> [[CFUCK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56942&oldid=56941 * 2n8asm * (+7)
20:06:34 <zzo38> I think it is not a program for an esolang that only reads uncompressed pngs; you can see what [[CFUCK]] article mentioned, it is difference from that.
20:08:03 <esowiki> [[CFUCK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56943&oldid=56942 * 2n8asm * (-3)
20:13:35 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Int-e * uploaded a new version of "[[File:.png]]": (compress png)
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21:39:01 <Vorpal> Esolang idea: Language based on bad pop interpretation of quantum physics, e.g. entanglement allows communication and what not
21:48:22 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: there are already multiple esolangs based on that I think, and even one supposedly non-eso language
21:48:42 <wob_jonas> usually on the interpretation that quantum entanglement lets you try all possibilities at the same time
21:49:15 <wob_jonas> just search for "quantum", you'll probably find mostly such languages
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01:11:19 <oerjan> zzo38: oh hm i realized i probably misunderstood your variant, so it's reversible anyhow.
01:14:51 <HackEso> [U+8279 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-8279]
01:59:52 <esowiki> [[Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56945&oldid=56936 * Oerjan * (+303) Some clarifications and adjustments
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02:17:44 <esowiki> [[rjan Johansen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56946&oldid=35684 * Oerjan * (+43) Add Home Row
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04:12:36 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jelly Doughnut * New user account
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04:21:39 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56947&oldid=56938 * Jelly Doughnut * (+106)
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04:56:14 <esowiki> [[CFUCK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56948&oldid=56943 * 2n8asm * (+51)
04:58:43 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56949&oldid=56935 * A * (+293)
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05:46:30 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56950&oldid=56949 * A * (-22) /* NOT */
05:56:25 <esowiki> [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56951&oldid=56950 * A * (-82)
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06:45:37 <esowiki> [[ZZT-Flip]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56952 * Zzo38 * (+1166) Created page with "[[Category:Languages]] [[Category:2018]] [[Category:Two-dimensional languages]] [[Category:Reversible computing]] [[Category:Self-modifying]] [[Category:Implemented]] ZZT-F..."
06:45:52 <zzo38> OK, there now I wrote it on esolang wiki.
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06:48:25 <esowiki> [[Nop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56953&oldid=19004 * Zzo38 * (-3) Internal link correction
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10:54:39 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56954&oldid=56670 * A * (+187) /* LOLCODE */
10:59:57 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56955&oldid=56954 * A * (+147) /* Log */
11:02:28 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56956&oldid=56955 * A * (+96) /* Log */
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11:33:06 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56957&oldid=56937 * A * (+133) /* Readability */
11:36:55 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56958&oldid=56957 * A * (+48) /* Looks like */
11:49:54 <esowiki> [[Simple Smurf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56959&oldid=56874 * A * (-29)
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15:43:39 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56960&oldid=56958 * Oerjan * (+309) /* Looks like */ Nah
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16:13:22 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56961&oldid=56956 * Oerjan * (+3) The sortings will continue until alphabetization improves
16:14:37 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56962&oldid=56961 * Oerjan * (+0) Until it improves, I said!
16:31:27 <int-e> it appears that oerjan doesn't like inversions
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16:54:09 <int-e> oerjan: the ones in non-identity permutations.
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18:03:34 <int-e> Ah, Sudoku isn't just similar to a graph coloring problem, it *is* a graph coloring problem (with some pre-colored vertices)
18:13:15 <FireFly> heh, that makes.. a lot of sense
18:18:27 <zzo38> Yes, that look like correct to me
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21:46:07 <zzo38> A new GameBoy game has been made recently called "Into The Blue". The panels come from the bottom and if it reaches the top then you lose. If three or more same panels in a line then they are removed and everything is fall down. The cursor switches places with adjacent panels; you cannot move the cursor into empty spaces, and the cursor falls same like panels do.
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22:49:59 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Stefvanschie * New user account
22:56:37 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56963&oldid=56947 * Stefvanschie * (+278) /* Introductions */
22:56:44 <esowiki> [[A0A0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56964&oldid=35594 * Stefvanschie * (+144) Make V command clearer
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06:28:03 <esowiki> [[Nandarin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56965&oldid=37186 * Ais523 * (+430) computational class: FSM-complete
06:42:46 <esowiki> [[Eniuq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56966&oldid=33086 * Ais523 * (+1091) it's TC
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06:58:13 <HackEso> smlist 473: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
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07:25:59 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GDavid * New user account
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07:40:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56967&oldid=56963 * GDavid * (+146) /* Introductions */
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08:01:07 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56968&oldid=56662 * GDavid * (+525)
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13:32:01 <izabera> https://github.com/dylanbeattie/rockstar
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14:01:27 <esowiki> [[SequenceScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56969 * A * (+649) Created page with "==50+60(Save in [00])== 00=32 01=3C 02=[00] 03=[01] 02+[03] 00=[02] x=y Set x(which is a place in the internal storage, x is a hex number) into y(represents a place of..."
14:03:41 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56970&oldid=56858 * A * (+104)
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14:14:38 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56971 * A * (+354) A stub...Help me by extending it!
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14:25:14 <esowiki> [[Hello]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56972&oldid=52353 * A * (+146)
14:25:47 <esowiki> [[Hello]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56973&oldid=56972 * A * (+3)
14:26:19 <esowiki> [[Hello]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56974&oldid=56973 * A * (+1)
14:26:38 <esowiki> [[Hello]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56975&oldid=56974 * A * (+2)
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14:27:33 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56976&oldid=56970 * A * (+33)
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14:40:13 <esowiki> [[HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56977&oldid=54515 * A * (+850)
14:40:28 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56978&oldid=56976 * A * (+9)
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14:44:30 <esowiki> [[Hello++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56979&oldid=52355 * A * (+298)
14:44:42 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56980&oldid=56978 * A * (+12)
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15:37:45 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56981&oldid=56834 * A * (+4)
15:47:50 <esowiki> [[Hello++++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56982&oldid=52356 * A * (+87)
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16:26:24 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56983&oldid=56868 * Fogity * (+623) /* Example programs */ Added a fizzbuzz program.
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18:40:09 <max1> I just tried to explain the esolang I'm busy with to my parents
18:40:12 <max1> It did not go well
18:40:30 <max1> How do you explain your esolangs to normal people??
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18:47:32 <wob_jonas> max1: you don't. that's not what esolangs are for.
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20:04:22 <subleq> max1: have they ever tried to walk on only tiles of a specific color on a patterned floor?
20:04:30 <subleq> that actually probably stops working at a certain age
20:12:48 <HackEso> olist 1129: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
20:22:35 <max1> wob_jonas: but I want to share the love lol :'''(
20:23:38 <max1> subleq: heyy I like that idea
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23:23:13 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56984&oldid=56981 * Oerjan * (-4) Undo revision 56981 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) No.
23:24:59 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Foobar!]]": Brokenly half-edited, abandoned derivative
23:26:05 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56985&oldid=56789 * Oerjan * (-14) rm deleted page
23:33:39 <lambdabot> ENVA 232250Z 14005KT 9999 FEW098 15/13 Q1009 RMK WIND 670FT 12006KT
23:49:05 <esowiki> [[Eniuq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56986&oldid=56966 * Oerjan * (+0) There is no hyphen.
00:03:40 <esowiki> [[A0A0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56987&oldid=56964 * Stefvanschie * (+105) Add java interpreter
00:06:25 <esowiki> [[A0A0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56988&oldid=56987 * Stefvanschie * (+7) Edit author name
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01:46:32 <esowiki> [[Telegram]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56989&oldid=56857 * A * (+0) Hmm...Typo
01:47:23 <ais523> − [[Category:Turing[DEL:-:DEL] + [[Category:Turing[INS: :INS]complete]]
01:47:37 * ais523 is reading the wiki in a terminal, for no obvious reason
01:48:02 <ais523> I wonder why <del> and <ins> aren't rendered using strikethrough and underline, like normal? those formats both exist in terminals
01:48:15 <ais523> although I guess w3m renders <i> as underline rather than italic
01:48:32 <ais523> (I can see an argument for rendering <i> as italic and <em> as underlined in a terminal…)
01:51:20 <ais523> it looks like this renderer is messing up uses of 🆒 in tables, too (I don't think it realises it's a double-width character)
01:51:52 <oerjan> hm neither does this terminal
01:52:24 <ais523> all the more reason for me to work on libuncursed, I guess :-(
01:52:48 <ais523> err, I should say full-width character
01:53:12 <ais523> the width of ASCII characters is known as "half-width", technically speaking
01:53:36 <oerjan> . o O ( this character is half empty )
01:57:05 <ais523> I was going to say "most characters are half-width" but then I remembered CJK (which is mostly full-width), which possibly outnumbers the rest of the characters by itself
01:58:05 <ais523> it'd be interesting to see a worldwide frequency table for Unicode codepoints
01:58:14 <ais523> I'm expecting 0x20 to be the most frequently used, but it's just a guess
02:05:24 <esowiki> [[SequenceScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56990&oldid=56969 * A * (+337)
02:06:05 <esowiki> [[Hello++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56991&oldid=56979 * A * (+2)
02:06:18 <esowiki> [[Hello++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56992&oldid=56991 * A * (+2)
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02:49:03 <esowiki> [[Internet Protocol Viewing Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56993 * A * (+18) Redirected page to [[IPVL]]
02:53:40 <imode> http://hopl.info/showlanguage.prx?exp=333&name=Nonpareil so I'm searching for _any_ kind of documentation on this language, and so far I haven't found anything.
02:54:12 <imode> I can't even find the defining paper anywhere. Bryan Higman is the author.
02:55:32 <esowiki> [[IPVL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56994 * A * (+671) Created page with "IPVL is a programming language which has only 1 command: copy. ==Copy== The command has this format: copy IP Where IP is any computer IP. ==Example(Infinite loop)== Copy 172..."
02:56:41 <esowiki> [[IPVL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56995&oldid=56994 * A * (+0)
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03:05:00 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56996&oldid=56980 * A * (+14)
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03:09:03 <esowiki> [[Feta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56997&oldid=52858 * A * (+279)
03:09:20 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56998&oldid=56996 * A * (+9)
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08:10:17 <esowiki> [[Far]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56999&oldid=56862 * GibsonGeorge * (+7)
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09:22:53 <Fogity> Are error messages valid quines? I just realized some of my error messages are.
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09:43:19 <fizzie> They're usually called "error quines", and are kind of a separate category from proper quines.
09:44:32 <fizzie> There's a few of them on fungot.
09:44:33 <fungot> fizzie: i i read it so i i don't know
09:45:29 <fizzie> It's not part of the source code, it's just the syntax for executing things.
09:46:17 <fizzie> In other words, it's a quine for fungot's Underload interpreter, not a quine for fungot itself.
09:46:17 <fungot> fizzie: what website was that again)) like
09:47:55 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: so it's definitely laughter
09:49:33 <fizzie> You can of course do it through one of the interpreters, but it's pretty boring.
09:49:41 <fizzie> ^ul ((^ul )SaS(:^)S):^ ...bad insn!
09:49:41 <fungot> ^ul ((^ul )SaS(:^)S):^ ...bad insn!
09:49:51 <fizzie> That's a fungot error quine, but...
09:49:52 <fungot> fizzie: do you want to know and
09:50:33 <fizzie> (The error part is entirely superfluous.)
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10:10:09 <Fogity> fizzie: okey, then I don't think there are any proper quines in my language (unless one uses the -p flag to print the return value of the whole program).
10:13:08 <shachaf> Can you predict what fungot will say if you know its RNG state?
10:13:08 <fungot> shachaf: yeah i see i didn't even know it was fine everything's going great i just i just believe when it's our time and
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10:16:43 <fizzie> shachaf: If you have the model files too, sure.
10:17:42 <esowiki> [[What a mess!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57000 * A * (+1337) Created page with "'''What a mess!''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] by [[User:A]] which is extremely messy. variables are defined like this: <i>var</i>=<i>value</i>, and the value can..."
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10:35:06 <wob_jonas> It's such a strange experience working in this company. So different from the previous one.
10:35:50 <Taneb> Where are you working?
10:37:05 <wob_jonas> In a company where most of the people are engineers, very few are IT people, and so most use a computer without the basic IT power user skills that I could expect even from the non-programmer people in my previous job.
10:37:38 <wob_jonas> They're good engineers, mind you, but the engineering part is one I don't understand and don't want to learn either, so it's like they're talking in meaningless abbreviations and jargon all the time.
10:38:23 <wob_jonas> And the few people with whom I can talk about IT are always so busy, which is why there were so eager to start to employ me, a person with IT skills, at such a short notice.
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10:39:01 <wob_jonas> My added value is only on the IT side.
10:39:48 <Taneb> So, you've got a good shot of being the Best There Is at What You Do
10:40:28 <wob_jonas> I arrived here because one of my relatives works here in a senior position, so it's important for her to finish some projects, but she's very busy because she's raising a small child, so she asked me a favor, which weighed somewhat into my decision to actually start to work here, at least for some months.
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10:41:39 <wob_jonas> But I probably won't stay here for very long, both because they don't do the creative IT tasks that would really satisfy me in the long run, and because I can't easily socialize with other people if they're doing a totally different job from me.
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10:44:36 <esowiki> [[Logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57001&oldid=15493 * A * (+21)
10:47:46 <Taneb> That's fair enough
10:48:39 <esowiki> [[Telegram]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57002&oldid=56989 * A * (+29)
10:48:41 <wob_jonas> The environment is otherwise reasonable, so I can stay half a year or even a year, until I get ready.
10:48:58 <esowiki> [[This=That 2.0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57003&oldid=56792 * A * (+29)
10:49:25 <esowiki> [[This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57004&oldid=56781 * A * (+28)
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10:52:30 <wob_jonas> Also, I've got a lot of technical debt in non-work IT project, so I have to "fix" (often redo) the software and hardware of my home computer, the server cbstream runs on, and the software of cbstream itself, somewhat soon, because cbstream is my flagship hobby project because it looks nice in a CV if I can write "more than 20 users for more than 10
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10:52:54 <wob_jonas> Um, probably "over 20 users for over 10 years" or something, but I'll figure out the English phrasing later.
10:53:05 <Taneb> (both phrasings work, I think)
10:53:16 <Taneb> (I'm a native speaker, though, so I might be cheating)
10:56:01 <wob_jonas> Taneb: it's an IRC bot that connects an IRC channel both way to the live chat of Perlmonks, which is a website that incidentally also has a ton of technical debt and is so insecure you could easily steal almost anyone's account if you cared, but its devs are also too busy to fix any of that.
10:56:17 <wob_jonas> There's an old FAQ at http://russell2.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/cbstream/
10:56:22 <wob_jonas> but the service itself doesn't work right now
10:56:45 <wob_jonas> which is the problem: I don't want to submit the CV when the flagship project I refer to doesn't work, which an interviewer can easily test
10:57:03 <Taneb> You can refer to it in the past tense
11:04:36 <wob_jonas> But it would be more impressive to fix it, and it would still have around 20 users eventually (might take a few months for some people to figure out it's live again).
11:07:29 <Taneb> But "I ran" is almost as impressive as "I run"
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11:08:55 <Taneb> (if you don't get it working)
11:09:14 <Taneb> To me a better reason for wanting to get it working again is "fun"
11:09:23 <Taneb> I guess that's why I'm in this IRC channel
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11:19:03 <wob_jonas> Well sure, I can make it get working by rewriting the whole thing in a totally different way, such as while learning some practical rust-lang, which is also fun.
11:19:13 <wob_jonas> It's sort of a balance. We'll see what happens.
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11:19:33 <wob_jonas> But "more than ten years with only a few months of interruption" also sounds nice on a spoken interview.
11:27:37 <wob_jonas> Only problem is, I'll definitely have heavy second system effect, with the rewrite being overcomplicated
11:27:50 <wob_jonas> The plus side is, I get free testers
11:28:05 <wob_jonas> who complain promptly about any problems
11:28:25 <wob_jonas> it's sort of like when HackEgo went down
11:28:41 <wob_jonas> anyone who quickly made a clone gets free testers
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14:39:50 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57005&oldid=56968 * GDavid * (+1481)
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15:07:59 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57006&oldid=56863 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Fibonacci sequence */
15:09:02 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57007&oldid=57006 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Truth-machine */
15:10:58 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57008&oldid=57007 * Digital Hunter * (-1) /* Truth-machine */
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15:58:52 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57009&oldid=56971 * Plokmijnuhby * (+532) Further explanation + C example
15:59:21 <esowiki> [[Popular problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57010&oldid=53610 * Plokmijnuhby * (+4)
16:02:30 <fizzie> `8ball Is HackEso a good CV filler?
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20:41:56 <HackEso> smlist 474: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
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22:00:27 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57011&oldid=56983 * Fogity * (-3) Updated examples and note about laziness for the latest release.
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23:13:34 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57012&oldid=57009 * Ais523 * (+3) you missed a fizz
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00:25:13 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57013&oldid=57005 * A * (+48) I think this is also a good idea.
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00:38:21 <esowiki> [[Conedy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57014&oldid=56117 * Ais523 * (+616) I just thought up a really elegant way to do I/O with this, in a backwards-compatible way
00:40:41 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57015&oldid=55850 * A * (+43)
00:49:43 <esowiki> [[Conedy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57016&oldid=57014 * Ais523 * (+688) /* Computational class */ more discussion; it's definitely strictly more powerful than a PDA, but that leaves it unclear what class it's in
00:50:08 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57017&oldid=57015 * Asdf * (+48)
00:53:14 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57018&oldid=57017 * Ais523 * (-48) Undo revision 57017 by [[Special:Contributions/Asdf|Asdf]] ([[User talk:Asdf|talk]]): only one submission is allowed per user ([[User:A]] and [[User:Asdf]] are the same person)
00:54:24 * ais523 is vaguely annoyed about having finally been forced to checkuser that
00:54:40 <ais523> I thought it was obvious, and indeed it was, but actually acting on such evidence pretty much needs proof
01:02:01 <HackEso> [U+2665 BLACK HEART SUIT]
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01:49:14 <esowiki> [[Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57019&oldid=56945 * Oerjan * (+3091) One-dimensional TC construction
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02:13:30 <ais523> I'm beginning to suspect that Conedy's computational class is "somewhere between PDA and LBA", but I'm far from certain
02:13:42 <ais523> I still have a nagging feeling that there's some ridiculous construction to make it TC
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06:37:39 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck minus -]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57020&oldid=46763 * Oerjan * (+2219) Depth two nested version based on [[Home Row]]
06:41:25 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57021&oldid=56664 * Oerjan * (+144) /* Computational class */ Nesting
07:20:57 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57022&oldid=57013 * GDavid * (+81)
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07:34:34 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57023&oldid=57022 * GDavid * (+43)
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08:29:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57024&oldid=35367 * A * (+167) /* Do people get to make new suggestions when their old one is featured? */
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08:36:19 <esowiki> [[Brainpocalypse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57025&oldid=55778 * Ais523 * (-4) typo fixes
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08:46:55 <myname> why are people making multiple accounts for the wiki?
08:49:24 <esowiki> [[This=That 3.0]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57026 * A * (+976) Created page with "This=That 3.0 extends [[This=That 2.0]]. It adds some spacial features, such as recursion and functions. For example: function MyFunction=param,param2 starts a function calle..."
08:49:26 <Taneb> myname: I think it's just one person
08:49:41 <esowiki> [[This=That 3.0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57027&oldid=57026 * A * (+0)
08:50:01 <esowiki> [[This=That 2.0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57028&oldid=57003 * A * (+31)
08:50:58 <myname> also, why is each version of that language a new language?
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08:54:40 <wob_jonas> These abbreviations for display resolutions (see long table and lists at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_display_resolution ) are getting riddiculous. Why can't mobile phone providers and video advertisers just use numbers instead of abbreviations like "HD" and "QQVGA"?
08:58:58 <Taneb> myname: because whoever's doing this is a little bit obnoxious
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09:23:35 <esowiki> [[EasyScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57029 * A * (+1418) Created page with "'''EasyScript''' is an esolang by [[User:A]], and is made up entirely of variables. Each line is just a case-sensitive variable name, followed by <code>=</code>, and then the..."
09:32:43 <esowiki> [[EasyScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57030&oldid=57029 * A * (-197)
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09:35:34 <esowiki> [[EasyScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57031&oldid=57030 * A * (+7)
09:41:21 <esowiki> [[EasyScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57032&oldid=57031 * A * (-23)
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11:19:30 <wob_jonas> This is getting ridiculous. The monitor has settings described as "Game Mode: Optimizes image settings for playing games." and "Samsung Magic Bright: Set to an optimum picture quality suitable for the working environment" and "Samsung Magic Upscale: Enchance picture detail and vividness" and "Response time: Accelerate the panel response rate to mak
11:19:30 <wob_jonas> e video appear more vivid and natural".
11:20:06 <wob_jonas> But that's nothing, wait until you hear what settings the Intel video card has.
11:21:07 <ais523> the "game mode", if it's designed correctly, should use the simplest possible control circuitry in order to reduce latency, the other options are likely to be more complex in what they do and thus slow down the monitor's response time slightly
11:21:28 <ais523> so it's a bit odd that there's a separate "response time" option, especially as the /description/ of it talks about a rate, not a time
11:22:08 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57033&oldid=55419 * GDavid * (-13)
11:24:13 <wob_jonas> The video driver has somewhat detailed video "color enchancement" and "image enchancement" and "image scaling" options, including "Skin tone enchancement" among the "image enchancement" settings that I think defaulted to enabled,
11:24:49 <wob_jonas> "Select Enable to improve the appearance of skin tones for video images"
11:25:50 <wob_jonas> Then there's "Film Mode Detection: Select Enable to improve the picture quality for video that was created from film."
11:27:49 <wob_jonas> Wait, I forgot the monitor option "Smart ECO Saving: Adjust the power consumption of the product to save energy."
11:28:14 <wob_jonas> The video driver has power saving options too of course.
11:30:23 <wob_jonas> "Graphics Power Plans: Select the graphics power plan from the list. Maximum Battery Life saves power by reducing graphics performance. Balanced mode offers full graphics performance when it is needed and minimizes power consumption during inactivity. Maximum performance improves graphics performance but requires more power."
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11:32:27 <wob_jonas> At least they have easy to understand options that go on a scale too. Such as, both the monitor and video driver has settings to scale the brightness and contrast. The video driver's is useful when the monitor settings doesn't go dark enough, as I found out with a different monitor and driver.
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12:10:28 <esowiki> [[Stun Step]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57034 * Ais523 * (+7137) new language (note: this page is slightly unfinished, but the specification itself should be finished)
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12:11:04 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57035&oldid=56985 * Ais523 * (+16) /* S */ +[[Stun Step]]
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12:11:35 <esowiki> [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57036&oldid=56651 * Ais523 * (+15) +[[Stun Step]]
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13:08:24 <esowiki> [[MSR]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57037 * GDavid * (+8163) Created page with "MSR or Match Switch Reverse is an esoteric programming language invented by [[User:GDavid]]. The memory of a program is infinite.<br /> Bits in memory are called fields.<br /..."
13:10:59 <esowiki> [[MSR]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57038&oldid=57037 * GDavid * (+6)
13:16:39 <esowiki> [[Match Switch Reverse]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57039 * GDavid * (+17) Redirected page to [[MSR]]
13:18:02 <esowiki> [[SimpleScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57040&oldid=56639 * A * (-30)
13:18:51 <esowiki> [[SimpleScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57041&oldid=57040 * A * (-66)
13:22:10 <esowiki> [[User:GDavid]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57042 * GDavid * (+35) Created page with "[[Category:People]] I made [[MSR]]."
13:23:07 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57043&oldid=57035 * GDavid * (+10)
13:24:31 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57044&oldid=57043 * GDavid * (+10)
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18:44:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Stun Step]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57045 * Oerjan * (+494) Suggested modification
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19:27:00 <\oren\_> 0xFACEB00B is a prime number
19:31:07 <\oren\_> I'm running a search for funny ones
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19:32:04 <\oren\_> well, running is a strong word
19:32:23 <\oren\_> I'm typing them in and seeing if they're prime
19:35:16 <\oren\_> I'm now using a perl scipt
19:36:18 <imode> cafe 7175 sounds like a solid name for an indie game.
19:37:48 <imode> my stance does not change. :>
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19:57:11 <esowiki> [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57046&oldid=56865 * DMC * (+0)
20:00:27 <\oren\_> 0xB1667175 is a prime nubmer too
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20:55:32 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ZaYen * New user account
20:56:37 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57047&oldid=56967 * ZaYen * (+176) /* Introductions */
20:56:42 <esowiki> [[User:ZaYen]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57048 * ZaYen * (+397) Created page with "I made the Hello Interpreter in Python 3.5 I AM THE REAL ZAYNE. I LOST MY ACCOUNT! == Interpreters Made == [[Hello]] Python interpreter<br> [[Hello++]] Python interpreter<br..."
20:57:06 <esowiki> [[User talk:ZaYen]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57049 * ZaYen * (+134) Created page with "Because nobody made a topic I decided to make this page --[[User:Zayne|Zayne]] ([[User talk:Zayne|talk]]) 16:25, 16 August 2017 (UTC)"
20:57:46 <esowiki> [[User:Zayne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57050&oldid=52860 * ZaYen * (-308)
20:58:09 <esowiki> [[User:ZaYen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57051&oldid=57048 * ZaYen * (+0)
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21:02:40 <quintopia> what was the first lang that used the lengths of arbitrary words to define numbers?
21:10:30 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lukalot * New user account
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21:57:29 <\oren\_> Started a process looking for funny 64 bit primes
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23:33:23 <boily> alercah: HELLORCAH! TOURNAMENT! SEPTEMBER! SUBSCRIPTIONS! THINGS LIKE THAT! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
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00:59:01 <quintopia> do you know the answer to my question above?
01:00:14 <quintopia> what was the first lang that used the lengths of arbitrary words to define numbers?
01:03:25 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57052&oldid=57047 * Oerjan * (+1) *Cough*
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01:09:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Stun Step]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57053&oldid=57045 * Oerjan * (+294) Motivation
01:11:05 <oerjan> quintopia: i do not, although .Gertrude is a weirder way of making a language based on word lengths
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01:43:49 <esowiki> [[Stun Step]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57054&oldid=57034 * Ais523 * (+387) on a suggestion by rjan
01:44:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:Stun Step]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57055&oldid=57053 * Ais523 * (+245) specification updated
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04:01:38 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57056&oldid=56281 * A * (+160) /* Normal implementations */
04:02:57 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57057&oldid=57056 * A * (-5) Oh no, I bragged.
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04:19:13 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57058&oldid=57057 * A * (+84)
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06:50:53 <esowiki> [[CC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57059 * A * (+969) Created CC, trying to prove it to be not Turing-complete
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07:48:09 <int-e> oh another half-specified language
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11:08:21 <wob_jonas> quintopia: lengths of arbitrary words as numbers => I considered that when doing perl golf with source code form restricted to lowercase letters and spaces only, because you can just write length jjjjjjjjj to get the number 9, but it turns out to never worth it
11:09:10 <wob_jonas> oh, actually, it might be worth it
11:09:22 <wob_jonas> this table says it's worth for the constants 1 and 3, https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=340164
11:09:33 <wob_jonas> but of course that might not be optimal
11:10:56 <int-e> Hah. "The list has been updated." is a pretty useless satement.
11:11:26 <wob_jonas> int-e: I explain the update below the list
11:15:27 <int-e> wob_jonas: I found it eventually.
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11:43:25 <wob_jonas> I hate how when ebay sends email about an order, it truncates the name of the item purchased. The item names are usually long to have as many search keywords as possible, and the truncated part often doesn't contain the actually important information.
11:46:20 <wob_jonas> And I'm not talking about the email subject. In the subject, truncating makes sense. It's the email body where this bothers me.
11:47:43 <wob_jonas> Also, I think ebay doesn't understand show slow post is to Hungary from East Asia. They always ask me to give feedback to items that haven't arrived yet. Heck, even some of the expected arrival times that items list are underestimates, which I know and expect items to be later than that, but still.
11:48:23 <wob_jonas> And I think when an item arrives very late, so I don't give feedback until that, ebay punishes me by hiding the item from the list of my purchases so I can't find it anywhere. This only happened once or twice, but still.
11:50:07 <wob_jonas> I could just lie and give feedback before the item arrives, but then I'd be in a lost position in the very rare case when the item doesn't arrive at all.
11:55:33 <impomatic> Ebay is a pain for buyers and sellers. Especially when buying / selling internationally :-(
11:57:02 <int-e> impomatic: heh I read that as "intentionally" at first
11:57:29 <impomatic> Well I've occasionally bought stuff unintentionally!
11:58:27 * impomatic buys and sells lots of ZX Spectrum software.
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12:03:38 <wob_jonas> I've already mentioned the very informative "1.00 HUF = 0.00 CAD" rounded exchange rates on ebay's special paypal interface,
12:04:41 <wob_jonas> although these turn out to be irrelevant anyway, because after like a year of using paypal and ebay, I found out that there is a way after all to make paypal charge my bank in the foreign currency instead of converting from HUF itself,
12:05:36 <wob_jonas> only the interface for that is well hidden and requires additional work for each payment, which I think they've done deliberately because currency conversion fees is the main way Paypal profits from my payments.
12:07:17 <wob_jonas> oh, that reminds me. I bought a spare mobile phone. I should order the screen protector foil in advance this time, rather than when I already have to use the phone.
12:14:41 <impomatic> I've had a few bargains on eBay recently. I bought about 70 issues of Scientific American for 10 :-) I like the Computer Recreations column.
12:15:15 <impomatic> Is eBay's currency conversion rate bad?
12:15:38 <wob_jonas> impomatic: ebay doesn't itself handle payment. I usually pay through paypal, but depending on the seller, you can pay in other ways
12:15:49 <wob_jonas> impomatic: but the paypal currency conversion rate is really bad
12:16:10 <wob_jonas> deliberately, because that's a good source of income for them
12:20:16 <impomatic> Hmmm... Google says 1 GBP is 1.13 EUR. I received a couple of EUR payments yesterday and they used the rate 1.18 EUR -> 1 GBP.
12:20:29 <impomatic> Just under 5% lost in currency conversion.
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12:39:21 <int-e> Hmm. 5% seems high.
12:44:06 <wob_jonas> impomatic: their terms and conditions describe exactly how they compute all the conversions, but you can just check the current exchange rates on paypal and see that they're high too
12:44:43 <wob_jonas> my bank offers me much better rates when charging my card in a foreign currency, so that's always worth to choose
12:45:27 <int-e> from what I've seen, paypal, officially, charges 2.5% over the interbank exchange rate
12:46:03 <int-e> but I see contradictory numerical examples, so I'm confused.
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12:55:59 <wob_jonas> int-e: it's complicated. it depends on the details how much they charge. their TOS is long and complicated.
12:56:51 <int-e> My latest foreign currency transaction was a 300GBP cash withdrawal that ended up as 345.62EUR; the interbank exchange rate was 1.1276..1.1316 that day, so that amounted to 1.8% to 2.17% loss.
12:57:33 <int-e> (and I have no clue how much of that went to the ATM operator)
12:58:15 <int-e> (Though, hmm, I did get a receipt stating 300 GBP, no fee.)
12:58:20 <wob_jonas> you withdraw cash from paypal? that sounds strange
12:58:56 <int-e> I'm trying to get an idea what's normal, so I'm looking at other ways of doing the conversion.
12:59:34 <wob_jonas> banks have two different exchange rates, one for cash transactions (called "valuta" in Hungarian) and a much better for payments or transfers (called "deviza" in Hungarian)
13:00:10 <wob_jonas> here you pay the former, plus you probably also pay a fee for the cash withdrawal, and possibly a high fee if you have withdrawn the cash from an ATM abroad
13:00:56 <wob_jonas> you can see from the columns of https://www.otpbank.hu/portal/hu/Arfolyamok/OTP how much cheaper is the "deviza" exchange rate
13:01:16 <wob_jonas> apparently there's also a third rate for cheques, I didn't know that
13:01:34 <wob_jonas> or... I probably knew but forgot, because that's almost never relevant here
13:01:51 <wob_jonas> I only ever used a bank cheque once in my life, because I'm in Europe
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13:03:10 <int-e> my latest GBP credit card charge had a 2.0 to 2.7% loss by the same calculation (and the amount was in the same ballpark)
13:03:32 <int-e> I have not checked the terms of service... maybe later.
13:04:20 <wob_jonas> but banks always have tricky fees other than currency exchange, so it can be worth to read their terms to figure out the hacks to get cheaper fees for the things you do
13:05:33 <int-e> Anyway, I would still say that 5% is high, unless it's for a small amount.
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13:05:55 <wob_jonas> it requires really strange hacks. for example, if I want to withdraw a larger amount of cash (which is not common), then it's cheaper for me to use the ATM of any bank other than my bank.
13:07:51 <wob_jonas> sadly the same is true about taxes. there's a strange construction of effectively investing supported combined by the state through taxes and a side company associated with the bank called "egészségpénztár" that I should have used to invest money into for years, but I only found out about it now.
13:08:06 <wob_jonas> and telephone and internet charges too
13:08:35 <wob_jonas> sadly all these keep changing their terms a lot so it may require more of your time to figure out the right hack than how much you gain from it
13:09:02 <wob_jonas> very often they deliberately obfuscate their terms so that they effectively charge people for not regularly reading them
13:10:33 <wob_jonas> at some point you have to draw a limit for how much reading small letter rules is worth your time
13:12:22 <wob_jonas> and these days they combine it with hard to use web interfaces to access documents and settings of course
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17:38:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Stun Step]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57060&oldid=57055 * Oerjan * (+2069) Reversible Brainfuck
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23:17:12 <mertyildiran> Hi, about a year ago, I wanted to develop a self-replicating and evolving computer program (which equals to a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_organism) but I failed to get a meaningful result. I also couldn't create a competitive environment to judge which program is better. This is the program that I wrote https://github.com/DragonComputer/Swarm
23:17:43 <mertyildiran> I know it's not that complicated or polished. But my purpose here to express an idea.
23:20:22 <mertyildiran> Python here gives me the benefit of overcoming "issue of program brittleness" but at the same time it kills the parallelism and the ability to do stuff with memory in low level.
23:22:36 <mertyildiran> So I guarantee error free new generations but I'm unable to provide the necessary conditions to create a survival challenge. Do you have any idea or advice?
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00:56:34 <imode> CMV: graph rewriting cannot be done without using variables and binding said variables to subgraphs.
01:00:40 <alercah> imode: define graph rewriting and variables here
01:01:53 <oerjan> . o O ( channel mini ...what?... )
01:02:22 <oerjan> . o O ( darn, fooled by PPCG chat )
01:02:54 <imode> alercah: graph rewriting, rewriting over graphs. lhs -> rhs rules, only both the lhs and rhs are graphs. lhs is a pattern (that may include variables on edges, nodes, etc.) that's to be found in the given graph, and rhs is the pattern that's supposed to replace it.
01:03:16 <alercah> so "variable" here means a label?
01:03:46 <imode> "variable" means a variable. naively, something you can store something in, namely a node label, an edge label, or an entire subgraph.
01:03:59 <alercah> I know off the top of my head of two formulations of HR grammars, one that work in terms of an algebra of equations, like how a CFG works
01:04:07 <alercah> the other works with labeled vertices
01:04:41 <oerjan> . o O ( highly recursive )
01:04:47 <alercah> start with a hypergraph, with labeled verticces
01:05:04 <rain1> whats graph rewriting for?
01:05:43 <alercah> each rule is G -> H where G and H are hypergraphs
01:06:07 <alercah> they must have a certain number of distinguished vertices, the same in each
01:06:23 <imode> do you have some example rules and transformations? you have my curiosity.
01:06:40 <alercah> if you have a label match between a hyperedge in your graph, and the distinguished vertices in G, then you replace the edge with H
01:07:00 <alercah> you could do it without labels in theory, but labels get you a lot more power
01:07:17 <imode> unlabeled is what I'm after in the long run.
01:07:20 <alercah> because otherwise you don't have much control over how matches work
01:07:41 <alercah> if you just want to eliminate labels, you could just invent unique gadgets to replace labels
01:07:56 <imode> yeah, just unique local "shapes".
01:08:14 <alercah> imode: do you know the series-parallel graphs?
01:08:17 <imode> the problem is I can't wrap my head around how you'd specify certain arrangements of nodes and edges.
01:08:54 <alercah> the recursive procedure to build them up can be expressed as an HR grammar
01:09:36 <imode> so let's say I have, for example, a loop that I want to extend. let's say I have a cycle of length 5, with nodes A, B, C, D, E, and F arranged linearly, with F connected to A.
01:10:02 <imode> I want to match any loop of 5 nodes, and then add a node after the last node. what would the rule look like for that.
01:10:22 <imode> okay, so you can't add or remove vertices.
01:10:32 <alercah> you can replace an edge with a graph
01:10:50 <alercah> 1 sec, let me make sure I get this right
01:10:57 <imode> sure, thanks for even bothering.
01:11:22 <alercah> imode: this was my masters thesis :)
01:11:34 <imode> came to the right person then. :P
01:11:50 <alercah> imode: so do you know the definition of series-parallel graphs by reduction?
01:12:10 <imode> also the thing that sparked my interest was https://www.slideshare.net/slidarko/computing-with-directed-labeled-graphs-3879998
01:13:29 <alercah> a graph is series-parallel if it can be reduced to P_2 by removing duplicate edges and by contracting a vertex of degree 2 (other than the endpoints)
01:14:31 <imode> contracting a vertex of degree 2. in or out degree.
01:14:37 <imode> or are we talking about undirected, sorry.
01:15:04 <alercah> oh wait my bad, I got this construction of HR slightly wrong T_T
01:15:10 <alercah> (I worked with the algebraic one)
01:15:24 <imode> I take it you're somewhere around computer engineering?
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01:15:37 <alercah> the thesis was in graph structure theory
01:16:55 <alercah> the labeling is on edges, not vertices
01:17:03 <alercah> and it denotes the nonterminals
01:17:19 <imode> I don't think the rules could possibly apply to all hypergraphs then, could it?
01:17:25 <alercah> so e.g. for series-parallel, we have one nonterminal S
01:18:20 <alercah> and we have rules v-S-w -> v-S-x-S-w, and v-S-W -> v=SS=w
01:18:35 <alercah> but the first one is meant to be series construction and the second one is parallel
01:18:48 <alercah> or in other words, subdivision and duplication
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01:19:21 <alercah> and then you have one rule v-S-w -> v-w
01:19:26 <alercah> which just eliminates the nonterminal
01:19:28 <imode> that's pretty interesting notation, I can see the forking and merging.
01:19:34 <alercah> yeah this is just invented right now for IRC
01:19:38 <alercah> I would not recommend it in general :)
01:20:09 <alercah> (hypergraphs are often depicted with, say, cicles for edges and boxes for vertices, as otherwise they get pretty ambiguous pretty fast)
01:20:30 <alercah> so the series-parallel graphs are the ones you get starting from one S-edge and then replacing edges
01:20:35 <imode> lmao, I figured. but that's interesting. so you can derive any "reasonable" circuit from those two rules.
01:20:51 <alercah> the result is well-known, it just happens to be a nice simple example of an HR grammar
01:21:04 <imode> but that does use variables.
01:21:08 <imode> to bind to labels.
01:21:17 <alercah> it uses nonterminal labels
01:21:23 <alercah> but in a similar way to how a CFG does
01:22:23 <alercah> you can use labels to restrict the bindings, yeah
01:22:56 <imode> so I guess I'd ask.. how would I use hyperedge rewriting to do general graph manipulations like I detailed above?
01:23:01 <imode> that's kind of what I'm after.
01:23:37 <imode> ah. that's still interesting though, I didn't know there was a process for deriving those kinds of graphs.
01:23:50 <alercah> it's actually the start of a rabbithole of deep results
01:24:06 <imode> I can understand why you don't want labeled verts, because in those graphs, all you _really_ care about are the edges.
01:25:10 <alercah> nothing wrong with using labels to carry information, as well
01:25:47 <alercah> the HR grammars are nice because they naturally correspond to the CFGs over strings
01:25:57 <alercah> there are other kinds, though, like vertex replacement
01:26:18 <alercah> similar idea, but they use vertices as the replacement point, rather than edges
01:26:22 <imode> what corresponds to unrestricted grammars?
01:26:44 <alercah> I'm not sure off the top of my head
01:28:49 <alercah> might be worth thinking about it in terms of the algebraic formulations
01:28:55 <alercah> the other way of expressing HR grammars
01:29:04 <alercah> and that was the one I was thinking of initially
01:30:02 <alercah> so in this system, you work over graphs where each graph has some labeled vertices, no two identical
01:31:01 <alercah> you can freely rename sources, or make a source into a non-source
01:31:30 <alercah> (technically renaming needs to preserve uniqueness so it's best expressed as swapping to keep things mathematically simple, but that's not necessarily relevant)
01:31:54 <alercah> and then you can do a parallel composition, where you glue two graphs together at matching sources
01:32:11 <imode> huuuuuuuh. now _that's_ interesting. I can see how they're equivalent.
01:32:47 <alercah> this can be expressed as an algebra
01:32:53 <alercah> (that is, a bunch of things and some operations on them)
01:33:04 <alercah> and then you can view a grammar as a system of equations
01:34:54 <alercah> e.g. for series-parallel, S = st | S // S [parallel construction] | rename[t->p](S) // rename[s->p](S) [series construction]
01:35:06 <alercah> st is a constant single edge with ends s and t
01:35:26 <alercah> and then S // S is parallel since it joins two graphs at s and t
01:35:41 <alercah> and the series construction is obtained by taking two graphs, renaming opposite ends of them to p, then merging
01:35:49 <alercah> so p is fused but s and t remain as the endpoints
01:36:00 <alercah> (oh I forgot you have to add a forget[p] operation)
01:37:06 <alercah> the graphs generated by this grammar are just the minimal solution to the system of equations
01:37:56 <alercah> inherently, though, it can't do the sort of structural replacement you're looking for because it is focused on having a sort of exposed surface to glue graphs together, if you will
01:38:30 <alercah> you could use it to extend a cycle, but not sensitively to the size
01:38:45 <imode> yeah I can see that. but from what I'm seeing, the gluing operation can be used to construct the desired graph.
01:38:52 <imode> just with a specific sequence of operations.
01:39:08 <imode> correct me if I'm wrong on that.
01:39:48 <alercah> but it turns out you cannot create a grammar in this system that will have unbounded cycle size
01:39:54 <alercah> (assuming you are restricting to finite graphs)
01:40:22 <alercah> the fundamental limitation is on the fact that you can only "keep track" of finitely many vertices
01:40:47 <alercah> so eventually you'd lose track of how big the cycle is and just keep expanding it indefinitely
01:41:11 <alercah> I was thinking slightly wrongly
01:41:17 <imode> 's all good. I think wrongly all the time.
01:41:53 <alercah> you can of course do that because the series-parallel graphs do that :P
01:42:02 <alercah> you can't have unbounded cliques though
01:42:17 <alercah> because once you forget a vertex, its relationships are finalized
01:43:24 <alercah> and this kind of model can't take edges away
01:43:42 <alercah> so once you have a 5-cycle, you can't turn it into a 6-cycle
01:45:30 <alercah> CFGs basically work on the same underlying technology
01:45:37 <imode> yeah, just over strings and not graphs..
01:45:49 <imode> and they have the same limitation of finite-ness...
01:46:13 <alercah> I guess the unrestricted grammar version would probably just be allowing arbitrary equations on the left-hand side as well
01:46:31 <imode> yeah. I think that'd solve the vertex amnesia.
01:46:54 <imode> and actually allow you to construct arbitrarily large cycles.
01:47:43 <alercah> you also can do this with different underlying algebras
01:47:51 <alercah> since HR is far from the only reasonable algebra on graphs
01:48:35 <alercah> (there's some tricksy technology that's used to define what it means to be an equational set i.e. generated set here, but I think the general idea is sound)
01:48:35 <imode> given. all sorts of graph grammars and equivalent algebras to explore. :P
01:49:22 <alercah> I'd probably point you at Courcelle if you want to read more :)
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01:49:35 <alercah> his papers cover a lot of relevant stuff
01:50:06 <imode> say no more fam, I've got it logged down to research.
01:51:29 <alercah> there's also some cool relation to the regular languages here: you can generalize the idea of a regular language in a couple of different ways (e.g. myhill-nerode construction, DFAs)
01:51:40 <alercah> (and a homomorphism-based one)
01:52:17 <alercah> they all work out to be the same thing
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01:52:29 <alercah> but the relationship between recognizable sets (this generalization) and equational sets is not subset like with strings
01:52:50 <alercah> but you do get the filtering theorem, that the intersection of equational and recognizable is equational
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02:00:38 <lambdabot> ENVA 270150Z 10010KT CAVOK 21/13 Q1020 RMK WIND 670FT 09006KT
02:03:18 <alercah> imode: did I change your view :P
02:07:39 <imode> ehh, not realy. to actually implement your concepts, you still need binding. :P
02:07:55 <imode> and it doesn't generalize to all graphs (I'm interested in working over semantic nets).
02:08:03 <imode> but by god what you covered was interesting as hell.
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03:42:52 <esowiki> [[ZZT-Flip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57061&oldid=56952 * Zzo38 * (+258)
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12:14:20 <ais523> trying to prove Stun Step TC has been very interesting
12:15:02 <ais523> the issue is that we don't have any TCness proofs for reversible counter machines yet, and it's fairly difficult to emulate anything using a reversible counter machine other than other reversible counter machines
12:15:17 <ais523> I've been working on a high-level (as esolangs go) language to bridge the gap
12:15:28 <ais523> but it's probably going to need an IDE to be effectively able to program in
12:15:45 <wob_jonas> I have a theory question, not specifically for you, but for anyone here
12:16:50 <wob_jonas> it's well-known that a finite state machine with two-stacks using some finite alphabet in the stacks, with UB on stack underflow, is Turing-complete, and you can simulate a one-tape Turing-machine on that, right?
12:18:21 <ais523> yes, the well-known variant is TC assuming sufficiently powerful control flow
12:18:47 <ais523> oh, you also need the alphabet to contain at least one character
12:18:56 <ais523> err, at least two, if underflow is UB
12:19:08 <ais523> (you use one as an EOF character and the other as a counter)
12:19:38 <wob_jonas> The control is that the program has any finite number of states, and each state that pops has different followup states for each possible letter it can pop.
12:19:58 <wob_jonas> The alphabets are large enough, you could say the program tells how large, but finite.
12:20:17 <wob_jonas> The separate alphabets for both stacks are large enough but finite that is.
12:21:14 <ais523> that's TC so far (e.g. you can implement StackFlow in it)
12:21:37 <wob_jonas> I know it's TC. What I'm saying is that it's also well-known to be TC.
12:21:51 <wob_jonas> For my variant, what I need to be well-known is that it can simulate a Turing-machine with an oracle, where the program can interactively query the oracle for a string from an alphabet, and get a yes or no answer, and the program can call the oracle any number of times.
12:22:23 <ais523> you want a stack machine with an oracle?
12:22:30 <wob_jonas> And the machine I want to use for this is the two-stack machine, except it has a special state when it queries the oracle, with two followup states, and importantly, the entire first stack is the input to the oracle.
12:23:18 <wob_jonas> So what I want well-known is that the machine can temporarily save all its state to its second stack, not using the first stack or the control state, and continue, and call the oracle with arbitrary input strings from the alphabet this way.
12:23:24 <ais523> I'm not sure if it's well-known, but it's true
12:23:52 <wob_jonas> The oracle input may need to be in a specific format, and can't have extra leading or trailing symbols or anything.
12:24:11 <ais523> yes, that's not a problem
12:25:10 <wob_jonas> I could relax the requirement about the control state, but using only one stack temporarily and a specific format on the first stack is mandatory for my proof.
12:25:29 <ais523> the way to think about it is that if you have one stack (as opposed to a queue or a tape), the thing restricting you from TCness is that you have nowhere to store the top elements of your stack while you read the bottom ones
12:25:41 <wob_jonas> And I also want this to run this with a reasonable speed, with at most polynomial slowdown in the number of steps.
12:25:46 <ais523> so you have to throw them away (a PDA) or else store them elsewhere, and a second stack is sufficient to store them elsewhere
12:26:12 <ais523> but you can use the second stack for other things while you don't need it as a temporary
12:26:48 <ais523> if you want to switch into "oracle mode", you do shuffling around to effectively put a sequence of imperative commands onto the main stack (each of these corresponds to a state that runs the command in question)
12:27:06 <wob_jonas> It's like the problem with those string replacement languages: you have to move the oracle input from somewhere on the second stack to the first stack, and only that input, with some letter swaps, which requires a lot of states but who cares.
12:27:10 <ais523> "push symbol X on oracle stack", "pop oracle stack", "run oracle", "go to state Y"
12:27:38 <ais523> then you switch to a state that simply repeatedly pops from the main stack and runs the appropriate command
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12:28:08 <ais523> (if the oracle is outputting in state form, you need two states to continue running the program after it returns, one for true, one for false, so that you use the state as a temporary to remember the oracle's answer)
12:28:28 <ais523> this should be an O(n) slowdown where n is the size of the stack, so if the program was polynomial it'll stay polynomial
12:28:57 <ais523> interestingly, I have something like this as a primitive that I put in higher-level stack-based languages
12:29:46 <wob_jonas> How I'm trying to use this is that the oracle is going to be a random-access disk storing an infinity of bits, and you give the address to read or write in (say) binary to the oracle, plus tell it whether to write zero, write one, or read.
12:30:04 <ais523> it's the opposite of "infra" from Joy, so I call it "ultra"; what it does is converts the entire stack into a single function, which when executed pushes the data in question back onto the stack
12:30:08 <wob_jonas> Also, for reasons, the disk requires you to write a bit before you read it, otherwise it's UB.
12:30:45 <wob_jonas> And this way a stack machine with that disk as oracle can "efficiently" simulate a RAM machine or a heap cons allocation machine, where the slowdown is a polylog factor of the runtime.
12:30:51 <ais523> if you're trying to implement it in a language that doesn't have it, you normally need to alter commands to ones that record the stack height, but apart from that it isn't terrible
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12:31:49 <ais523> hmm, looks like I have an implementation lying around: (~aa(n:^)~*(*)*^)n:^
12:32:01 <ais523> (this is Underload + a primitive n for determining whether the stack is empty)
12:32:24 <ais523> you do need to know where the end of the main stack is but in this construction, you can just use a separate symbol for it
12:32:56 <ais523> of course, the stack model you're using doesn't allow for arbitrarily complex elements
12:33:13 <ais523> although, hmm, I wonder if you could use something with paired ( and ) characters to delimit the elements
12:33:49 <wob_jonas> no, I definitely need a finite alphabet
12:33:53 <ais523> that'd work better in a three-stack system than a two-stack system, though (one for holding the program, one for holding the data, one for parsing the data)
12:34:01 <wob_jonas> for the arbitrarily complex data, I store it in the disk oracle
12:34:16 <wob_jonas> yes, but I can't afford three stacks. I need two stacks for this proof.
12:34:25 <ais523> wob_jonas: what you've got me thinking about is an Underload variant that runs on a finite-alphabet stack machine without a separate encoding layer
12:34:39 <ais523> it's easily doable in three
12:34:41 <ais523> two might be possible though
12:34:42 <wob_jonas> I could get a bit more relaxed with states, like, I don't insist on only one oracle state, but two stacks is important.
12:34:54 <ais523> via using the state machine to store data
12:36:36 <wob_jonas> This is for the proof of how powerful Consumer Society is, although for practical programs you don't need all this complexity, you can get away with a simpler construction that lets you access a huge but finite amount of data.
12:37:11 <ais523> ugh, you do need three, so this approach won't work
12:37:46 <ais523> mine for solving your problem
12:37:58 <wob_jonas> oh, the "underload with finite-alphabet stack"
12:38:09 <wob_jonas> I don't even understand what that would supposed to be look like
12:38:31 <ais523> ['(',':','a','S','S',')',':','a','S','S']
12:38:39 <ais523> i.e. the parentheses are elements in the alphabet
12:39:17 <ais523> I was just picking a well-known Underload program
12:40:16 <ais523> so the problem with stack machines is that they're bad at copying data
12:41:10 <ais523> even without supporting nested parentheses, Underload's ':' seems difficult (impossible?) to implement without the help of a third stack or a separate encoding layer
12:41:34 <ais523> like, let's pose this as a problem: suppose you have a stack of 'a' and 'b', and an EOF character (say '$')
12:42:00 <ais523> suppose you allow any finite number of additional characters, and you have a second stack that starts empty
12:42:09 <ais523> can you duplicate the contents of the stack in polynomial time?
12:43:09 <wob_jonas> first you change each a to ac and each b to bd
12:43:24 <ais523> and then you bubble-sort
12:43:29 <wob_jonas> then you do a bubble sort to bubble up the c and d
12:43:45 <wob_jonas> should be quadratic even on two stacks
12:43:54 <wob_jonas> you just need a larger alphabet and enough states
12:43:55 <ais523> this is possibly the first serious use of bubble sort I've seen :-D
12:44:17 <ais523> actually I think this gives a general method for implementing two stacks with three
12:44:23 <ais523> err, implementing three stacks with two
12:44:24 <wob_jonas> you need to encode in the state whether you need another pass of the sort
12:44:40 <ais523> or in fact any number of stacks with two
12:44:58 <ais523> use one stack that simply contains an arbitrary interleaving of all but one of the rest (using different symbols for the various stacks)
12:45:02 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, I had some sort of question similar to that earlier
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12:46:05 <ais523> actually you don't even need a bubble sort for this, just move all the information onto your temp stack until you find an element of the stack you're looking for
12:46:13 <ais523> delete it, encode it in the state, and move all the information back again
12:46:31 <ais523> this should also serve as a proof that you can keep one stack with entirely arbitrary information, because all the stacks you're using for computation are encoded on the other
12:46:59 <ais523> this is only an O(n) slowdown, I think? accessing any element of any stack takes a length of time bounded by the total number of elements in all stacks
12:47:37 <wob_jonas> o(n) multiplicative factor sslowdown
12:48:17 <ais523> if the program was running in O(a) space and O(b) time, it now runs in O(a) space and O(ab) time
12:48:33 <ais523> which is actually a fairly good complexity result
12:48:43 <wob_jonas> which is actually important, to track the space and time separately
12:48:46 <ais523> given that space complexities are normally smaller than time complexities
12:49:05 <ais523> (with some definitions they're always smaller because it takes time to fill all that space)
12:49:31 <wob_jonas> the space here is going to be only polylog of the time, because the space will only be used to keep a bounded number of addresses on the disk, as many addresses as the simulated machine has registers, plus a few temporaries
12:49:47 <ais523> the simulated machine is sub-TC?
12:50:13 <wob_jonas> and I care about efficient runtime
12:50:18 <ais523> oh, the addresses get arbitrarily large
12:50:38 <wob_jonas> but only logarithmically large, because they're in binary and I allocate them sequentially
12:50:50 <wob_jonas> I don't care about garbage collection
12:50:55 <ais523> so yes, this runs with polylog slowdown I think
12:53:14 <wob_jonas> this will prove that Consumer Society is efficient in theory, as efficient as, say, SKI calculus or whatever reasonable computational model with unbounded memory size, up to polylog slowdown
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12:53:59 <wob_jonas> and I can separately prove that it's also sort of efficient in practice if you only need compile time bounded sized memory, although not really so efficient that you'd want to run real programs in it, just eso-efficient
12:54:27 <wob_jonas> and that part is easier to program by far, no need to swap symbols from an alphabet on two stacks or such crazy stuff all the time
12:54:36 <ais523> well, I admit to being guilty of writing languages that run in double exponential time before now…
12:55:16 <ais523> although the reason my TCness proof of 3* stalled out is that I wanted to make a more efficient version of the proof
12:55:20 <wob_jonas> Amycus implemented the naive way is much worse than double-exponential
12:55:23 <ais523> involving a more efficient cyclic tag
12:55:33 <wob_jonas> that's why I describe how to implement it properly
12:56:24 <ais523> there's no point in having complexity classes beyond double-exponential because they're all far too slow to even comprehend
12:56:28 <ais523> let alone attempt to run programs in
12:56:43 <ais523> (this includes double-exponential as one of the classes that's too slow to comprehend)
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13:41:47 <ais523> wob_jonas: it's surprisingly bothering to see someone say nothing for 15 minutes, say "hmm" once, then go silent for another 15 minutes
13:42:28 <wob_jonas> I was just thinking about this disk model a bit more
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15:03:40 <HackEso> olist 1130: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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18:40:02 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck in Python]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57062 * Kaa-kun * (+1212) Brainfuck in Python
18:41:30 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck in Python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57063&oldid=57062 * Kaa-kun * (+124) Correction
18:49:03 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57064&oldid=55607 * Kaa-kun * (+432) /* Important message from Carbuncle */ new section
20:07:54 <zzo38> My high score so far in "Into the Blue" is 36690 points. Did you play that game? It is like a cross between Panel de Pon and 15 Puzzle.
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20:45:59 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sylwester * New user account
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00:17:50 <lambdabot> ENVA 272350Z 11015KT CAVOK 26/15 Q1020 RMK WIND 670FT 13012KT
00:18:08 <oerjan> this is seriously unnatural for trondheim at midnight tdnh
00:19:58 <oerjan> it also means i cannot get the apartment cooled down properly before tomorrow starts heating it again :(
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01:39:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Stun Step]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57065&oldid=57060 * Oerjan * (+1086) /* Ideas for TC proof */ new section
01:44:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Stun Step]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57066&oldid=57065 * Oerjan * (+383) /* Reversible Brainfuck */ Observation
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03:40:21 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hakerh400 * New user account
03:50:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57067&oldid=57052 * Hakerh400 * (+142) /* Introductions */
04:01:39 <zzo38> How to determine in Linux if the current time is a leap second?
04:23:38 <imode> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/26202730/how-to-find-out-if-the-linux-kernel-will-insert-a-leap-second-at-the-end-of-the
04:24:10 <imode> zzo38: the above ought to solve your problem.
04:24:14 <imode> there's a flag that you can check.
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04:44:04 <zzo38> I am concerned only about the current time when the program is running. However that suggests that you need NTP to figure out if there even is a leap second at all.
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04:58:33 <oerjan> . o O ( maybe the only way to check must take more than a second, so it's unsolvable )
05:00:05 <esowiki> [[Functional()]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57068 * Hakerh400 * (+10438) Added a new language: "Functional()"
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05:10:21 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57069&oldid=57044 * Hakerh400 * (+19) Added "Functional()"
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05:14:18 <esowiki> [[Functional()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57070&oldid=57068 * Hakerh400 * (-1)
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07:54:16 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57071&oldid=57011 * Fogity * (+773) Added turing completeness section.
08:20:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57072 * Plokmijnuhby * (+225) Created page with "The fizzbuzz program uses in a way that is outside the specification, i.e. <name><definition> to define a variable. Is this intended behaviour? ~~~"
08:32:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57073&oldid=57072 * Fogity * (+131)
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08:33:54 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57074&oldid=57071 * Fogity * (+49) /* Language */ (clarified param count)
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12:12:07 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57075&oldid=57069 * GDavid * (-10)
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12:45:19 <wob_jonas> zzo38: are you trying to make an esolang similar to http://esolangs.org/wiki/2014 ?
12:47:05 <wob_jonas> or are you merely in charge of precise timing for some delicate astronomy or physics or spacefaring project?
12:51:18 <wob_jonas> and yeah, looking into ntp demons is the right thing for this. the linux kernel serves timestamps either as unix epoches, which can't represent leap seconds, so they're faked by fuzzing time to go a bit slower during a longer period before,
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12:51:52 <wob_jonas> or monotone timestamps, which do go steadily even near leap seconds, but aren't anchored to UTC or anything other than an arbitrary point at bootup.
12:52:51 <wob_jonas> The ntp demon gets the precise time and up to date future leap second info from a GPS receiver or from some other ntp server on the network, and so it's what knows about leap seconds and handles all this.
12:54:29 <wob_jonas> Most linux programs don't care about precise *absolute* timekeeping, the approximate (to a second, in the fortunate case when ntp is working well and you have network connection, or to a minute otherwise if you set time by hand) calendar time and a precise but relative timekeeping is enough for them.
12:57:38 <wob_jonas> There's some kernel interface between ntp and the kernel where ntp can both set time and tell the kernel to slow down or speed up time a bit, which is used not only for leap seconds, but because the local clock can be inaccurate.
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13:18:56 <wob_jonas> s/local clock/local hardware clock/
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13:24:41 <fizzie> Looks like there's still a little while to go before the AI singularity: https://zem.fi/tmp/ikea.png
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13:36:40 <int-e> . o O ( "you have made a simple door very happy today." )
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13:42:25 <fizzie> int-e: Part 2 didn't go much better either: https://zem.fi/tmp/ikea2.png
13:48:06 <int-e> Heh it's not that this cannot happen with humans in a busy call center on the other end... but usually if you call again, you talk to a different person. With AI you'll have the same AI, over and over again... fun :)
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13:56:36 <fizzie> I didn't really get a very comprehensive answer from the human webchat either, so I guess that's fair.
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14:36:42 <mroman> Taneb: http://mroman.ch/ESOSC/stds/ESOSC-2014-1/ANB.txt <- the assigned number blocks
14:36:59 <mroman> @tell nortti http://mroman.ch/ESOSC/stds/ESOSC-2014-1/ANB.txt <- the assigned number blocks.
14:37:56 <mroman> also: http://esosc.mroman.ch/stds/ESOSC-2014-1/ESOSC-2014-1-2.html is still up for approval :)
14:38:01 <mroman> hasn't been formally approved yet
14:39:26 <mroman> unrevocable should probably spell irrevocable :)
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15:03:25 <zzo38> It should be fixed so that plain text versions of all documents can be downloaded
15:03:41 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Astronomy
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15:41:15 <mroman> yeh I'm working on a markdown that supports that.
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16:11:16 <mroman> you can just click "Save page as" *.txt in most browsers anyway.
16:15:00 <mroman> html is just more versatile
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16:21:19 <zzo38> mroman: Still is not how I mean; I mean if you are using an external program to download it.
16:39:50 <int-e> just use lynx -dump :P
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18:26:20 <zzo38> I was writiing some ideas about Scientific Role Playing System. I have considered to not have any character definition points at all and instead you can just define it whatever you want to do, with a few restrictions. http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/scirps.ui/wiki?name=Notes/Pointless What are your opinion about such thing?
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18:49:45 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57076&oldid=57074 * Fogity * (+76) /* Example programs */ Added a palindrome program
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21:54:35 <wob_jonas> zzo38: nice. can you tell me a bit more?
21:58:54 <wob_jonas> About what kind of astronomy you're doing for which you need to get the sub-second precise calendar time on a linux computer.
21:59:51 <zzo38> So far I can just document that that function doesn't work during a leap second.
22:00:56 <zzo38> It is a SQLite extension to use Swiss Ephemeris. The JULIANDAY_UT1 and JULIANDAY_ET functions are similar to the built-in JULIANDAY function but use the algorithms from Swiss Ephemeris instead of those of SQLite (it also uses different arguments).
22:01:17 <zzo38> If the function is called with no arguments then the current date/time will be used, but it won't work properly during leap seconds.
22:01:25 <wob_jonas> zzo38: but with those, you usually want to compute values for any time, not the current time in particular
22:02:01 <wob_jonas> I mean, I don't just want to know the moon phase right now, I might want to know what the moon phase will be two days from now, and I don't need it at sub-second accuracy
22:02:03 <zzo38> Yes, I know, it isn't necessarily the current time you want. But if you specify no arguments then the current time is used
22:02:31 <wob_jonas> Will you publish this code by the way? I'll be a bit interested
22:02:54 <wob_jonas> Not specifically because I want to use them from SQLite, but as a good example for how to use some of Swiss Ephemeris
22:02:58 <zzo38> Yes it will be published
22:03:23 <wob_jonas> I'm only interested about the Sun, Moon and Venus though, not other planets.
22:04:32 <zzo38> That is fine, although it still computes for others too (since I think they are all in the same file anyways). If you do not have the ephemeris files it will still work, but it will not be as accurate as if you do have the files.
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22:16:39 <zzo38> I also wrote a library to use Swiss Ephemeris with Node.js, however it requires use of N-API, and might not be compatible with the latest version
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00:19:28 <lambdabot> CYUL 290000Z CCB 27024G33KT 6SM -TSRA FEW028CB SCT050 BKN110 BKN240 21/17 A2993 RMK CB1SC3AC1CI1 PRESRR SLP137 DENSITY ALT 900FT
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02:28:17 <lambdabot> ENVA 290150Z 10012KT CAVOK 24/17 Q1011 RMK WIND 670FT 13016KT
02:28:34 <oerjan> it feels hotter - or maybe just more humid.
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09:57:40 <esowiki> [[Functional()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57077&oldid=57070 * Hakerh400 * (+17039) Added more examples
09:58:54 <int-e> . o O ( Too short, want to read more. )
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10:06:27 <esowiki> [[Functional()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57078&oldid=57077 * Hakerh400 * (+39) Fixed the code
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18:17:37 <esowiki> [[Rosa Parks]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57079 * Plokmijnuhby * (+2315) Created page with "Rosa Parks is a language by ~~~, based around bus conflicts and race conditions. == Overview == All calculation in the language is done by devices. The syntax consists of <d..."
18:18:56 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57080&oldid=57023 * Plokmijnuhby * (-157) Removed completed idea
18:19:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rosa Parks]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57081 * Oerjan * (+119) Hm
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18:21:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rosa Parks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57082&oldid=57081 * Plokmijnuhby * (+183)
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19:39:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57083&oldid=55329 * Qwertyu63 * (+402)
19:41:32 <int-e> hmm finite state machines
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22:50:10 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Neanias * New user account
22:54:21 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57084&oldid=57067 * Neanias * (+134) Add my introduction
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23:09:14 <zzo38> I played the GURPS today; the GM (who also knows about airplane flying) decided my character flying 10 yards/second at full speed is too slow, so instead making it 15 yards/second at minimum, and maximum will be 25 or 30 yards per second
23:09:22 <zzo38> Do you think it is better?
23:13:08 <boily> sounds about right.
23:13:15 <boily> . o O ( yards per second??? )
23:13:42 <zzo38> GURPS measures all speeds in yards per second.
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23:26:11 <zzo38> (In making Scientific Role Playing System, I should use metres per second instead.)
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00:07:57 <zzo38> Is it possible in Linux to program a signal handler for SIGPIPE to know why SIGPIPE was signalled and if it is not the one it expects to call whatever the old signal handler was (in case it has already been changed)?
00:11:16 <zzo38> Or else to cause a specific write() to not cause a SIGPIPE signal?
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00:28:27 <oerjan> hm why do i have a +R flag...
00:29:46 <oerjan> huh block private messages from unregistered users
00:30:10 <oerjan> i suppose making that default is an anti-spam measure
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00:33:25 <oerjan> hm perhaps related to https://freenode.net/news/spambot-attack, which i ironically haven't noticed
00:33:39 <oerjan> ok not very ironic when i'm only on two small channels.
00:39:22 <zzo38> I noticed that too but I removed that flag
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01:22:50 <oerjan> `learn yards is short for "yet another retro distance system".
01:22:53 <HackEso> Learned 'yard': yards is short for "yet another retro distance system".
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01:33:30 <HackEso> 1/1:montreal//Montréal is a city in Canada that somehow is obsessed with Vietnamese cuisine. \ monoidal category//Monoidal categories are just 2-categories with a single object. \ gopher//Gopher is int-e's vision of the successor of HTTP/2. But zzo38 thought of it first. \ grue//grue is the colour of the trees and the ocean \ wob_jonas//wob_jonas is b_jonas in disguise, so that he can do magic tricks.
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01:55:03 <lambdabot> ENVA 300050Z VRB03KT CAVOK 16/15 Q1013 RMK WIND 670FT 11006KT
01:55:24 <oerjan> a brief moment of coolness
02:05:06 <zzo38> (Actually I think I don't need to deal with SIGPIPE, it look like?)
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07:21:02 <esowiki> [[Rosa Parks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57085&oldid=57079 * Plokmijnuhby * (+485)
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10:51:18 <esowiki> [[Functional()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57086&oldid=57078 * Hakerh400 * (+287) Added info box
11:57:27 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Wastl * New user account
12:02:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57087&oldid=57084 * Wastl * (+188) /* Introductions */
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13:07:25 <wob_jonas> zzo38: SIGPIPE sucks, it's a stain of unix history. it would have been better if SIGPIPE never existed (that is, the kernel behaved as if it was ignored) and callers of write always checked for errors, but the signal is there for lazy programs that assume that writes just won't fail
13:09:10 <wob_jonas> If you know that the target is a socket, then you can call send instead of write, but if it's not a socket then send will give an error, so you're out of luck.
13:11:12 <wob_jonas> If you want to distinguish different sources of SIGPIPE, then you're probably screwed anyway, since multiple instances of the same signal can be collapsed, so you can lose some errors.
13:12:13 <wob_jonas> The best bet is to set the signal to a no-op signal handler in the whole program and hope that everything copes with that and checks the results of writes.
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14:18:52 <zzo38> SIGPIPE can be useful if writing to stdout I think, but not for other outputs
14:20:32 <zzo38> (But that would be messy)
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18:06:19 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57088&oldid=56746 * Raumaankidwai * (+73)
18:07:27 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57089&oldid=57088 * Raumaankidwai * (-1) /* Pyth */
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20:00:31 <esowiki> [[Rosa Parks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57090&oldid=57085 * Plokmijnuhby * (+71)
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20:12:00 <wob_jonas> zzo38: re yards, a yard is like two pound meters per kilogram, right?
20:12:15 <wob_jonas> sounds like an entirely sensible unit of measure to use
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00:21:47 <lambdabot> ENVA 302350Z 25009KT CAVOK 20/14 Q1017 RMK WIND 670FT 27005KT
00:22:21 <oerjan> somehow, it feels a lot hotter. must be side effect of today's xkcd.
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00:30:09 <tswett> I've got a silly question for you guys.
00:30:17 <tswett> What mathematical statements are meaningful?
00:30:48 <tswett> Presumably arithmetic statements are meaningful.
00:31:20 <tswett> Suppose I've got a computer program P which enumerates arithmetic statements.
00:31:35 <tswett> Is the statement "all statements enumerated by P are true" meaningful?
00:32:55 <oerjan> that's a pretty deep philosophical questions on which people disagree.
00:33:50 <tswett> For the time being, I'm going to assume that *only* arithmetic statements are meaningful.
00:34:25 <tswett> In particular, the statement "all statements enumerated by P are meaningful" is *not* meaningful.
00:35:10 <oerjan> intuitionists might have a different answer than classical mathematicians, in particular.
00:35:25 <oerjan> and ultrafinitists yet another.
00:35:51 <tswett> Intuitionists are likely to doubt that the Goldbach hypothesis is meaningful.
00:36:16 <oerjan> unless it can proved or disproved.
00:36:27 <oerjan> (preferably using intuitionist methods)
00:37:38 <tswett> Now, I've got a sheet of paper here.
00:37:53 <tswett> On this sheet of paper, I wrote down every single arithmetic statement that I believe is true.
00:38:07 <oerjan> that sounds pretty dense.
00:38:07 <tswett> (It's a very large sheet of paper, and that took me a very long time to do.)
00:38:34 <oerjan> did it collapse into a black hole due to the bekenstein bound?
00:39:07 <tswett> Anyway, just now I wrote on the sheet of paper: "Let U be the formal system whose axioms are all of the statements written above."
00:39:24 <tswett> Now, below that, do you think I should write "U is consistent"?
00:39:38 <tswett> (I wrote that sentence at the bottom, of course.)
00:42:01 <oerjan> not necessary. you might be uncertain whether arithmetic is consistent.
00:42:54 <oerjan> although then you get into questions of what you mean by "true" in an inconsistent system.
00:43:05 <oerjan> (other than "everything is true")
00:43:14 <tswett> But I believe that the natural numbers are a model of arithmetic.
00:43:30 <oerjan> that would seem to imply they're consistent.
00:43:51 <oerjan> godel's completeness theorem and all.
00:44:14 <tswett> If I don't believe in the meaningfulness of anything besides arithmetic statements, then I can't believe that the natural numbers are a model of arithmetic.
00:44:21 <tswett> Because that's not an arithmetic statement.
00:44:25 <oerjan> except that presupposes ZFC, which implies arithmetic.
00:44:48 <tswett> So, in turn, I have no reason to believe that U is consistent.
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01:05:05 <int-e> "Do you wish to compact all local and offline folders to save disk space? This will save about 628 GB." - I have my doubts.
01:05:41 <imode> secretly, it's encouraging you to shred your harddrive in anticipation of an FBI raid.
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04:07:17 <HackEso> [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+031A COMBINING LEFT ANGLE ABOVE]
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08:33:30 <esowiki> [[Rosa Parks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57091&oldid=57090 * Plokmijnuhby * (+147)
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09:41:32 <wob_jonas> so, I'm used to the convention from C and other languages that I put whitespace on the inside of a comment marker if the comment is natural language text, but no whitespace if it's code temporarily disabled (except when there's a tokenizing ambiguity from omitting the whitespace). but should I be using this convention in VBA? It looks sort of ugly
09:41:33 <wob_jonas> because the comment marker apostrophe looks so much more unsubstantial than slashes or sharps.
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12:28:09 <alercah> wob_jonas: I believe that the only correct style guidance for commented-out code is to have none.
12:29:12 <wob_jonas> my question is, should I use whitespace for when it's a textual comment?
12:30:04 <wob_jonas> that's the much more common case for my code, since I'm in the habit of commenting out code blocks with ifdefs or if conditions rather than putting a // before each line
12:31:32 <wob_jonas> mind you, VBA doesn't have ifdef, so there I can't do that
12:36:32 <int-e> wob_jonas: I think I put whitespace in all cases, including commented out code.
12:37:05 <int-e> (though indeed most of the time it's #if 0 / #endif, when I'm coding C or C++)
12:53:58 <esowiki> [[ObCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57092&oldid=50418 * Wastl * (+2) /* Example Program */ Corrected cat until EOF
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14:20:40 <wob_jonas> `pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/treatment/
14:20:41 <HackEso> pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/treatment/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
15:23:27 <wob_jonas> apparently the VBA parser requires a space between an identifier and an ampersand operator, because it can actually parse an ampersand as a sigil too
15:23:44 <wob_jonas> the manual didn't even mention that this dialect of basic supports sigils
15:25:09 <wob_jonas> I mean, it makes sense in retrospect, but it's annoying because I already auto-generated code for some long string concatenations that I have to regenerate nw
15:39:54 <int-e> wob_jonas: you should really give your operators room to breathe :P
15:41:17 <wob_jonas> yeah, that's sort of my former senior programmer said too, that he wants spaces around operators as the most important whitespacing rule in code conventions
15:42:27 <Taneb> Spaces around close parentheses but not open parantheses
15:42:42 <Taneb> Like this: "foo(bar ) +1"
15:43:15 <Taneb> You know, seeing that has made me realise I haven't eaten in over 24 hours. I should get some food
15:43:54 <wob_jonas> you at least made sure to keep hydrated, right?
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15:47:32 <Taneb> I've got myself a bowl of ceral
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16:29:16 <arseniiv> I missed #esolang while being almost entirely in other places two weeks prior
16:31:02 <arseniiv> though I don’t read thoroughly and usually have nothing to add, it’s fun or/and useful
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16:46:54 <MDude> I'm thinking it'd be nice to extend the idea of reversible computing to analog comptuers.
16:48:05 <MDude> As far as I'm aware, modeling analog computers would involve using continuous functions.
16:49:31 <MDude> And apparently if you have a reversible function that's also continuous, it's a homeomorphism?
17:03:34 <arseniiv> if the function R → R is continuous and invertible, it’s strictly monotone AFAIR. For functions R^n → R^n IDK
17:05:20 <arseniiv> a homeomorphism is a topological notion, and R or R^n do admit various topologies not too non-standard to not consider them
17:06:56 <MDude> Yeah, I was wondering where to look next since I wasn't sure what to make of things suddenly veering itno topology.
17:20:14 <arseniiv> I think it could be described using terms from basic [multidimensional] analysis entirely, and no special topological treatment seem to have to be used to find something here
17:20:45 <arseniiv> no need to swim into deep waters for every small task
17:27:15 <MDude> Monotonic functions seem to be in the direction of what I'm looking for, though for brining things back to computing it'd be nice to have functions with more than one argument.
17:28:37 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57093&oldid=57089 * Raumaankidwai * (-2) /* Pyth */
17:34:09 <MDude> That just leaves me wondering how to order complex numbers/tuples for the purpose of having functions on them be monotonic, though.
17:34:38 <MDude> Basic multidimensional analysis is proably something I should look into, thanks.
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17:49:32 <Taneb> OK, I think my laptop's hard drive might not be working
17:50:14 <Taneb> Where's a good place to buy a replacement
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17:53:07 <Taneb> Booting fails and says "try running fsck manually" or something like that
17:53:28 <Taneb> Booted onto a USB an ran fsk manually, get a ton of "Buffer I/O error"
17:54:04 <Taneb> Don't know enough to know what's relevant from this output, but it doesn't look friendly
17:54:14 <int-e> you could query the smart data smartctl -a /dev/sda ?
17:54:22 <int-e> (or whatever the hdd device is)
17:54:32 <Hooloovo0> yeah, that sounds like a hard drive failure
17:54:53 <Hooloovo0> I'd recommend immediate backups with ddrescue or the like
17:55:16 <Taneb> There's nothing on it I particularly want to keep
17:56:17 <Taneb> ...I've got literally no idea how to remove the hard drive
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17:58:00 <Taneb> Some kind of low-end HP
17:58:36 <int-e> I suppose there are soldered on SSDs and similar sins.
18:00:25 <Taneb> Might just be new-laptop time
18:01:05 <Taneb> So... anyone recommend a new laptop?
18:02:34 <int-e> (but I have no better advice; my last personal laptop was one of th Acer One netbooks)
18:05:02 <Hooloovo0> I've also heard decent things about eurocoms or some other clevos
18:27:13 <arseniiv> MDude: That just leaves me wondering how to order complex numbers/tuples for the purpose of having functions on them be monotonic, though. => you most likely don’t need this total ordering. It is in a sense incompatible with more than one dimensions
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19:33:40 <MDude> Yeah, it's just a question of whether continuity and bijection are, in combination, also incompatible with more than one dimensions.
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20:23:36 <arseniiv> MDude: they are compatible, look at identity function. It’s always continuous and bijective. Invertible affine transformations are both, also. Now you can slightly “deform” an affine transformation and obtain more sofisticated examples. I’m not going to list all the possible functions, though, as I haven’t studied this topic
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20:26:46 <HackEso> olist 1131: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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20:28:33 <MDude> Yeah, I just need to figure out what area I need to study to learn some examples less trivial than the identity function and simple inversion.
20:29:27 <MDude> Affine transformations are rpobably what I'm looking for, so again, thanks.
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20:38:30 <MDude> Yeah, this seems to be what I'm looking for.
20:41:42 <MDude> I think I got confused at some point and dismissed roation when I shouldn't.
20:57:25 <MDude> It also seems like a lot of this could be implemented pretty well as optical systems, which would would be handy.
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23:39:23 <Sgeo_> That's a lot of olist
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